No brainer. Let them get "swept away".... And seize their passports to prevent them from being swept back.
3
Violence is everywhere in everything. The pictures, the words, the deeds, the seeming beliefs. It is being promoted as nearly the all of everything. By a certain age, no TV programming is suitable or interesting. It promotes violence as the all of nearly everything.
In addition the persons we watch are pencil thin, making those of normal weight feel big and fat and ugly. I thought we got rid of girdles and garter belts; now we have Lycra and Spandex to pinch and squeeze ever and ever smaller.
No one on screen appears normal. Speech is carefully modulated. All hair is long and stringy. And on and on until we who watch no longer feel normal in any way.
In addition the persons we watch are pencil thin, making those of normal weight feel big and fat and ugly. I thought we got rid of girdles and garter belts; now we have Lycra and Spandex to pinch and squeeze ever and ever smaller.
No one on screen appears normal. Speech is carefully modulated. All hair is long and stringy. And on and on until we who watch no longer feel normal in any way.
I cannot fathom anything more idiotic than preventing someone who wants to join a violent jihad from leaving the country. By all means, please let them leave. There is no upside to making them stay here.
4
So many forces at play, but many comments brought to mind the American experience and programs that (incidentally) contribute to a sense of community--American Community. How about the programs endorsed by some over the years--Mandatory Public Service--whether 'conservation corps' (as existed in California), human-service agencies, or even churches/synagogues/temples? Whatever would be on the list, one must spend 2 years in such roles.
I do not point this out as "the solution", but rather mentioning it was one possible way to help more of the rising generation experience America.
I do not point this out as "the solution", but rather mentioning it was one possible way to help more of the rising generation experience America.
4
In the 1930's and 40's, mostly young men searched for adventure in war and they found it. Some Americans signed up to fight in the Spanish civil war. Many Japanese young men volunteered to become Kamakazie pilots and there were too many volunteers to fill planes on suicide missions. Germans joined Brown Shirts for a few marks a day and a sense of belonging eventually becoming SS soldiers.
This kid from Minneapolis is joining a death cult with no future but death and destruction. Nothing in Minneapolis could be a fraction as bad as what this kid is going to face in Iraq or Syria.
This kid from Minneapolis is joining a death cult with no future but death and destruction. Nothing in Minneapolis could be a fraction as bad as what this kid is going to face in Iraq or Syria.
11
When we see a kid like this who aligns with ISIS, we automatically associate him with ISIS's atrocities. I don't know what this kid thinks about the atrocities, but I doubt they're front and center for him. For most of us, they are. Had ISIS pursued its goal of establishing a caliphate by a traditional territorial war, many of us would have viewed them like any expansionist nation, to be contained by local forces who we would support. ISIS's atrocities undermine their cause. Why they continually engage in them defies logic.
1
Perhaps ISIS/ISIL/etc isn't what you think it is. Perhaps those representing or presenting an image of said group isn't what you think they are. Perception is persuasion in most cases.
Why are so many posters here so ready to strip anyone who goes to fight with ISIS of their American citizenship, when few say a word about those who leave to join the Israeli army? The Israelis put a bullet in you, rather than beheading, but the result is the same. ISIS has succeeded in its campaign to stir up emotions and make a name for itself, but who knows in this fickle world whether they may yet be our allies in the coming war with Iran which the conservatives are trying so hard to stir up.
3
For real? You equate the IDF with ISIS? And I suppose you believe the United States has never committed any atrocities in any war. I don't see the IDF destroying ancient artifacts! I don't see the IDF killing journalists! I'd like to see how you would react to the daily barrages of rocket fired into you homeland!
2
I think the number of of Americans participating with the death cult ISIL in Iraq or Syria as stated in this article is seriously flawed. Australia, with a population of only 23 million, has at least 90 known young men fighting with ISIL over in Syria, and for the U.S. to have only around 24 over there is only 0.5 person per state. The ISIL recruiters are very much better than that. Their skills with social media, and their ability to really connect with the disenfranchised young men (and some women) who are seeking something in their lives because they are either loners, have no direction, have mental health issues, etc. there needs to be a common message from the Imam's and the leaders of the Muslim communities world wide, that declares ISIL non Islamic, that it does not follow the teachings of their holy texts and is a cur on their faith.
Any person caught trying to join ISIL must undergo an extensive deradicalisation process, they do not deserve jail.
Any person caught trying to join ISIL must undergo an extensive deradicalisation process, they do not deserve jail.
1
This article acknowledges using the Middle East Media Analysis Institute, which is an Israeli run group in D.C. described as follows on Wikipedia:
"Critics charge that it aims to portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light, through the production and dissemination of inaccurate translations and by selectively translating views of extremists while deemphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions."
Surely the NYT can do better than this as a source for its reports on media in the Middle East. Obviously the Israelis are using these texts to manipulate the tender emotions of so many of its readers.
"Critics charge that it aims to portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light, through the production and dissemination of inaccurate translations and by selectively translating views of extremists while deemphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions."
Surely the NYT can do better than this as a source for its reports on media in the Middle East. Obviously the Israelis are using these texts to manipulate the tender emotions of so many of its readers.
6
Looking at the open, smiling face of this young man - still almost a child, really - is heartbreaking to me as a mother. Our society is wonderfully creative, allows for freedom of expression and personal liberties, all values I treasure, but it is also largely driven by greed, willfully ignorant of other cultures, materialistic, and in many ways painfully shallow. Young people need ideals, they need a mission, and our morally ambiguous society fails them in that regard. It is easy to understand how these youths could be drawn to the adventure of attempting to recreate the Caliphate, an ideal society grounded in devotion to God, fairness, brotherhood, a clear moral code. The fact that ISIS is a cruel hoax and a horror should not blind us to our own failings. What vision of the world are we offering our children, aside from smartphones and designer clothing?
8
This is not our failing. This is not something those of us with open minds did wrong. smartphones and designer clothing may be misguided priorities, but not nearly so misguided as leaving home to join ISIS. It's not helpful or accurate to point an accusatory finger towards the wrong community regarding this problem. It is not helpful to shift the responsibility to "the larger society". This is a problem specific to the Somali immigrant community and if any community is going to be held responsible for this problem, it must be theirs.
5
You do this, or anything else like this; you immediately loose your precious American citizenship.
Have a nice day. Bu Bye
Have a nice day. Bu Bye
14
There are two ways to look at this situation: (1) be glad Abdi Nur has gone to Syria to join ISIS and now out of our hair. Cancel his US passport and be done with him, hopefully he will get the trip to paradise that he wants; or (2) just stop admitting out of place Muslims into the U.S. as immigrants. I don't think that preventing them from leaving the US for the Middle East is useful; they will only become disgruntled Islamic jihadists in the U.S. Better to let them go.
17
Instead of coddling these young democrats it's time to cut their heads off. That'll make em think twice.
6
'Online brainwashing'.....There should be some degree of censorship in social media!
3
Why are we stopping these misguided, stubborn people from leaving? Let them leave but confiscate their American passports, strip them of their American citizenship and never let them get back in - EVER. Also, make sure they have a one-way ticket. Why are we spending our tax dollars on people who want to feel the high of being a jihadist? Let them go in their search for utopia and 100 virgins ( or is it thousand )?
26
These are terrorists, fanatics and, in some instances, traitors. Why are we coddling them? Why do we let them into this country? We should deal with them the way we dealt with the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazi party and the Communists. They are no different.
10
But we sent our jobs to Communist China -- and we buy their goods.
9
A difference when they refuse to assimilate into our culture, want to kill us and impose their belief systems on us.
This is bull shit!
These communities know what ISIS is all about and the difference between freedom in the US and where they are from, especially the difference for women. They are not teaching their children the facts. In fact, they may not be accepting the facts themselves. That they say they are surprised means that they know nothing about their children or they are simply lying! The Mosques recruiting these young people are the same ones their parents attend. Yet, they continue to support leaders who recruit their children. Of course, in some communities, they practice the same law and policies their children run off to.
Many of the kids involved are losers. They can't make the grade here and get sold on how good it is elsewhere.
These communities know what ISIS is all about and the difference between freedom in the US and where they are from, especially the difference for women. They are not teaching their children the facts. In fact, they may not be accepting the facts themselves. That they say they are surprised means that they know nothing about their children or they are simply lying! The Mosques recruiting these young people are the same ones their parents attend. Yet, they continue to support leaders who recruit their children. Of course, in some communities, they practice the same law and policies their children run off to.
Many of the kids involved are losers. They can't make the grade here and get sold on how good it is elsewhere.
12
There are nuances that color a decision. There are also immigration and integration qualifiers to migrants' parental decisions.
It would be unwise to believe that the lack of academic achievement accelerates, let alone is the determinant of, joining a political party abroad.
It would be unwise to believe that the lack of academic achievement accelerates, let alone is the determinant of, joining a political party abroad.
Children grow up to be young adults, and then eventually older adults. Somewhere along that route we all must join a group, be part of a society, somehow. Whether that is precipitated by family, friends, or strangers is determined by our circumstances.
1
Mohammed Hamzah Khan,19, took his younger brother and sister to O’Hare airport. He told his parents he could not stay in the United States because his taxes might be used to kill Muslims overseas. He preferred to kill Muslims on ISIS orders using knives and bullets supplied by ISIS.
17
"He preferred to kill Muslims on ISIS orders using knives and bullets supplied by ISIS." Who got the bullets from warehouses the US filled before our "ally" lost them or gave them away.
1
This is a very well reported article. Yet the thinking of these young people who join ISIS remains elusive save for circumstances of poverty and a foreclosed future. Clearly, the only way to fill in the holes of the story is to interview the radicalized youth which, of course, is not easily gettable. Why, also, are there many young people, stuck in the same quicksand of poverty, who don't get seduced by the promise of a better and heroic life with ISIS? The psychological underpinning of those who sign up needs to be further explored. Still, article is a good effort.
3
Many of those joining isis are from middle and upper class families. Even this guy planned to be a lawyer until he was brainwashed. Although this does call into question what IS being taught in the public schools. I suspect too much sympathy for culturs teachers know nothing about, and a hatred for the United States.
Let's take another example and see how eager the rehabilitationists are to apply their good intentions to this one: the KKK. The Klan emerged out of a defeated, angry, and disaffected South following the Civil War. Disempowered, marginalized, bitter, and often poor, the Klan members found meaning in their terrorism and violence against innocent African Americans who they perceived as somehow responsible for the disaffection of poor Southern whites. Did we "reach out" to the Klan? Did we try to devise programs to give them jobs so they wouldn't be so angry? So they wouldn't continue their terrorism and hate? Do we try to reach out to them now with programs and jobs? No. We imprisoned them when we can in order to remove them from a society in which they can no longer function without being deadly hate criminals. Stop re-framing radical Islamists as poor lost souls who need a leg up. They are KKK members with different color hoods. We need to follow a single standard for dealing with terrorists, not a double standard.
32
A formula.....
Religious fanaticism + Testosterone = DISASTER
Religious fanaticism + Testosterone = DISASTER
17
29 known converts and 8!! are women
3
Testosterone mixed with nearly anything can lead to excess.
3
Young women can be equally delusional. ISIS recruits men and women to what they believe will be an adventure. Sadly, these young people don't understand the reality of the situation. They are naive and easily led. I don't blame the Somali parents. Many middle class, educated parents are completely unaware of what their children are up to. Immigrant parents are often even more unaware of their children's lives. If young people want to hide what they are doing, it isn't difficult.
This Minneapolis experiment of placing radicalised youth in a halfway house, hoping the "therapy" would help re-integrate them in the society reminds much of the one in the Danish port city of Aarhus, where returning jihadists are met with counselling and careers advice rather than jail.
The thinking behind it says, many of those young men who joined ISIS had few prospects and didn't feel welcome in Danish society. Interrogating and arresting them on their arrival could further alienate them, but engaging them in dialogue might not. Officials keep close watch on them and engage mosque leaders in deterring future jihadists.
The thinking behind it says, many of those young men who joined ISIS had few prospects and didn't feel welcome in Danish society. Interrogating and arresting them on their arrival could further alienate them, but engaging them in dialogue might not. Officials keep close watch on them and engage mosque leaders in deterring future jihadists.
6
Life imprisonment would be better. Even better yet, do not let them return.
10
I cannot imagine someone thinking that if you kill newborn babies up to twelve year old, that God will welcome you. I can't think of stoning a woman for the young apparel or listening to a song they don't approve of. I can't imagine and I know that my God would never wait for me so He could reward me for ripping off a man's head who loves his wife and children because he doesn't like my religion. Why not stay where you came from and worship in your own way. I don't see the Baptists, Catholics, Jewish, Pentecostal and all the rest of the faiths that worship the true God, threatening you. Think about it. There is no god who would reward this sick depraved action.
23
This organization must fill a void in that sense of "self" for all these young people. Disenfranchised in the land where they live I guess they seek some sense of belonging. False, of course. Manipulated, most likely. Their zeal - misdirected - but they are blinded by their passion. This sort of blind devotion to - let's call it "evil" - is not the first time it has occurred in this world of ours...but its definitely ours to confront and to "own" in terms of our sad
contribution to this mayhem.
contribution to this mayhem.
4
The recruitment of young Americans to become terrorists has a lot in common with gang membership in the neighborhoods of our cities. Marginalized youth, primarily, are perfect targets of the message that "belonging" to a radical brethren will give an otherwise meaningless life a sense of validation and purpose. It has far less to do with embracing an ideology than with the need to be embraced by those who share the same background and anger at one's state in life.
13
Really hard to pick some single characteristic for Americans trying or actually going to ISIS. Too small a sample. So let these people go. They are joining a losing cause and will eventually die whether in Iraq, Syria, Somalia, Libya etc. If some return we should not waste $$ on justice. Captured they are not POW's. They have absolutely no "rights" as American citizens. Over the history of the US others have joined causes that have ended badly for them. This jihad movement will be and should be dealt with in a most forceful ,"take no prisoners". The places they infest are failed states or grossly corrupt. Strong and honest leaders are needed in these countries. In some of these countries unfortunately "pure" is not an option ie Egypt. As much as our leaders favor governments like ours this does not seem possible in the Middle East. In my view the next best thing are strong authoritarian leaders that can bring there countries toward rule where economic and social conditions exist favoring democracy and then give up power. Will this ever happen?
1
The sad fact is we have allowed and embraced those who will destroy liberalism and our way of life !?
6
To those saying we should just let them go, please consider how unfair that would be to regular Iraqis and Syrians. I'm sure it's a knee-jerk reaction, and I certainly do understand it, but all nations must do everything in their power to stop them from going. As often as I have talked smack about Turkey for letting them waltz across the border (and they MUST do better at helping), we also can't expect them to be the gatekeeper for all of the ones we let slip out of our own countries.
2
Re: From Minneapolis to ISIS: An American's Path to Jihad," March 21, 2015.
It seems to me that disaffected youths in the U. S,. and Europe, especially of Muslim descent, are more likely to find the ISIS outlook on life: That the ideal life is the Wahabist Sunni way, and that those who reject hat way are "infidels" deserving of death, a solution for their alienation. They are gullible youths and surely misinformed about ISIS and brainwashed by it. It is, therefore, the duty of parents, teachers, religious leaders, and politicians to bind our alienated youths to society by helping them financially to get an education, to instill in them self-worth, and to make them believe that America cares for them.
In populous countries like India and China, youths are not discriminated against on the basis of color, poverty doesn't carry the same kind of stigma as in the U. S.; nor do they reject ties to family and society so early in their lives as their counterparts n America and Europe do.
It seems to me that disaffected youths in the U. S,. and Europe, especially of Muslim descent, are more likely to find the ISIS outlook on life: That the ideal life is the Wahabist Sunni way, and that those who reject hat way are "infidels" deserving of death, a solution for their alienation. They are gullible youths and surely misinformed about ISIS and brainwashed by it. It is, therefore, the duty of parents, teachers, religious leaders, and politicians to bind our alienated youths to society by helping them financially to get an education, to instill in them self-worth, and to make them believe that America cares for them.
In populous countries like India and China, youths are not discriminated against on the basis of color, poverty doesn't carry the same kind of stigma as in the U. S.; nor do they reject ties to family and society so early in their lives as their counterparts n America and Europe do.
1
Don't know much about India and China, do you? Ever heard of the caste system? Know anything about the ruling class in China?
8
You are wrong on both counts, especially regarding India. Read up about their Caste System which is still fully practiced.
5
To Azalea lover and Sina1050.....While the caste system exists in India, its role on marginalization of youth is doubtful. The reality in India is that the poor, no matter what caste are at a disadvantage. The strong quotas for the 'low castes' in the political, education and public sector have yielded some fruit. But the point of KK Nutty is that for reasons that bear consideration, Indian and Chinese youngsters are not flooding Syria and Iraq. My own opinion is that most young Indians and Chinese see themselves as future caretakers of their parents and families as there is no social security or medicare system there. Whether its love or loyalty or obligation, few cut and run.
1
The Western world should legislate to deprive such radicals of their citizenship?
5
Why these groups like ISIS 'pop up' so frequently!!! ...Taleban in Afghanistan, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza, Shabab in Somalia, FIS in Algeria, Turag in Mali, Boko Haram in Nigeria, Al Nusra/ISIS/ISIL in Syria and Iraq, Shiitt's/Muqta Sadar loyalist/ Iranian death squads in Iraq, Al Qaeda in Yemen, Libya, Aikwhan in Egypt....how 'west', US, and Israel have played in these regional conflicts and how many of these groups have been financed and given military equipment/training's by the same players!!! Folks have no illusion about military-industrial complex and know exactly 'Godfathers'/'demagogues' at the 'global helm'!!!
1
Wow, it is the republicans fault, it is the parents fault, it is the wealthy fault... Not one seems to be able to say it was the persons fault who made the decision... Of course there are those chanting throw them out, don't let them back in... Torches and pitch forks... Lynch them all....
I was raised knowing right from wrong. Choices I made whether right or wrong are MY fault, not my parents, not republicans not wealthy people... Mine all mine... It is this mentality that is gone today along with any desire of people wanting to help anyone who has made a wrong choice...
Better to judge then help I guess... I myself am glad I cannot become what others have....
I was raised knowing right from wrong. Choices I made whether right or wrong are MY fault, not my parents, not republicans not wealthy people... Mine all mine... It is this mentality that is gone today along with any desire of people wanting to help anyone who has made a wrong choice...
Better to judge then help I guess... I myself am glad I cannot become what others have....
4
Danger and a code of conduct, are ingredients of natural life we have lived for millions of years and therefor we need them. Modern Western society no longer provides this.
Many youngsters turn to crime to get it, others turn to Jihad. And again the same pattern arises from Mr Nur’s story and words, the same that was found in the texts encountered in the belongings of the 9/11 hijackers in american hotelrooms: total devotion to a cause, readyness to die for it and human emotions. Nothing you would expect from bloodthirsty criminals.
This exaxtly confirmes the hypothesis of a reaction to the West’s abandonment of moral conduct. The West should shame itself.
Many youngsters turn to crime to get it, others turn to Jihad. And again the same pattern arises from Mr Nur’s story and words, the same that was found in the texts encountered in the belongings of the 9/11 hijackers in american hotelrooms: total devotion to a cause, readyness to die for it and human emotions. Nothing you would expect from bloodthirsty criminals.
This exaxtly confirmes the hypothesis of a reaction to the West’s abandonment of moral conduct. The West should shame itself.
The West should not be enabling our enemies to come and live amongst us in our homelands. A mere couple hundred years ago, such enemy aliens would have been immediately removed -- either chased out or killed. Today, brainwashed liberals think that it is somehow a sign of virtue to "help" our enemies by bringing them into our countries to live amongst us where we sleep and our children play. Our ancestors were far wiser than we are. Liberal "good intentions" are indeed the road to Hell.
10
Our ancestors killed most of the people who lived here to take their land. Now we kill many people in THEIR own lands for probably the same reason. You should be happy Dharma, not much has changed.
4
I wager that this infomercial about "a small number of Americans" will lead to a big bounce in recruits for ISIS. The Hijrah to the Islamic State will become a backpack must for any pseudo-idealist bent on changing the world by blowing it up one body at a time.
The Times' treatment of two of the mere two score apparently enticed by ISIS' allure will only serve to attract more to the higher calling of jihad.
Yusuf gets caught at the airport and winds up in a halfway house working at Best Buy. Authorities think he will become a role model who will persuade fence sitting jihadist teenagers in Minneapolis to "Just say no." What a powerful message. If you get caught, no problem. A gentle slap on the wrist and off you go.
Nur gets top billing as a warrior for truth and justice, including a photo op featuring the favorite weapon of freedom fighters the world over - when you get your first AK, you've finally made the big leagues. Join ISIS and get worldwide notoriety in the New York Times, complete with excerpts of your social media activities.
Who needs enemies when...... You know the rest of the saying.
The Times' treatment of two of the mere two score apparently enticed by ISIS' allure will only serve to attract more to the higher calling of jihad.
Yusuf gets caught at the airport and winds up in a halfway house working at Best Buy. Authorities think he will become a role model who will persuade fence sitting jihadist teenagers in Minneapolis to "Just say no." What a powerful message. If you get caught, no problem. A gentle slap on the wrist and off you go.
Nur gets top billing as a warrior for truth and justice, including a photo op featuring the favorite weapon of freedom fighters the world over - when you get your first AK, you've finally made the big leagues. Join ISIS and get worldwide notoriety in the New York Times, complete with excerpts of your social media activities.
Who needs enemies when...... You know the rest of the saying.
14
GLC our brains are 100% in sync. In other words you took the words
right out of my mouth. Good on ya mate
right out of my mouth. Good on ya mate
3
How many American's have embraced Jewish Zionism and joined and/or supported the ethnic sectarian supremacist violence and terrorism of Israel and the Israel Defense Force?
Unlike Israel, neither ISIS/ISIL, al Qaeda, al Nusra Front, have received $3.1 billion in annual American military aid since 1985.
Since 9/11/01 hundreds of thousands of Sunni Muslim Arabs have died and/or been wounded or killed in Iraq and Syria and millions of them have been displaced and or refugees in the wake of American support, intervention and war involving Sunni Muslim Arab tyrant autocrats allied with America. They have no faces nor names nor histories.
Unlike Israel, neither ISIS/ISIL, al Qaeda, al Nusra Front, have received $3.1 billion in annual American military aid since 1985.
Since 9/11/01 hundreds of thousands of Sunni Muslim Arabs have died and/or been wounded or killed in Iraq and Syria and millions of them have been displaced and or refugees in the wake of American support, intervention and war involving Sunni Muslim Arab tyrant autocrats allied with America. They have no faces nor names nor histories.
14
Excellent point.
But remember what newspaper you are reading.
The NYTs scrubs negative news on Israel.
It must not be "fit to print!"
But remember what newspaper you are reading.
The NYTs scrubs negative news on Israel.
It must not be "fit to print!"
4
Alienation and radicalization is a likely result of the disaffection that comes from being marginalized. We need to think about reality and the causes. Our simplistic zero sum mentality is pervasive in our culture transcending the political, social and economic order that exists. It has consequences that grow more seriously by the day.
9
Why is it that the Somali immigrants in Minneapolis are so alienated and the Somali immigrants in Portland, Maine, aren't?
9
Not sure as to what has taken place in Portland, but, the perception, right or wrong, here in Minneapolis, is the Somalis have taken the position that others must conform to their beliefs. If we don't agree with their beliefs, the Somalis depict themselves as victims.
The Somali taxi drivers declared they should not have to drive passengers who were either intoxicated, had visible alcohol bottles or were with a dog. When the drivers were told this philosophy wasn't going to work, the drivers claimed they were being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
When two Rochester, MN, women were on trial for funneling money to a terrorist organization, one woman refused to stand up when the judge entered the court room, because this action violated her religious beliefs. Funding terrorists was an entirely different situation.
A suburban Muslim charter school was found to have violated the separation of church and state. The school took the position that they were being persecuted because the school was comprised of Muslim students. That they were violating the law was simply a matter of persecution.
There are good and bad people in every community. Unfortunately, the Somalis in Minneapolis have worked hard to perpetuate a stereotype of intolerance for any opinion other than their own, misogyny towards all women, not just Somali women, and an incredible knowledge of how to work the welfare benefit system to their advantage.
The Somali taxi drivers declared they should not have to drive passengers who were either intoxicated, had visible alcohol bottles or were with a dog. When the drivers were told this philosophy wasn't going to work, the drivers claimed they were being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
When two Rochester, MN, women were on trial for funneling money to a terrorist organization, one woman refused to stand up when the judge entered the court room, because this action violated her religious beliefs. Funding terrorists was an entirely different situation.
A suburban Muslim charter school was found to have violated the separation of church and state. The school took the position that they were being persecuted because the school was comprised of Muslim students. That they were violating the law was simply a matter of persecution.
There are good and bad people in every community. Unfortunately, the Somalis in Minneapolis have worked hard to perpetuate a stereotype of intolerance for any opinion other than their own, misogyny towards all women, not just Somali women, and an incredible knowledge of how to work the welfare benefit system to their advantage.
4
That's a fascinating point. Maybe because Mainers are plainspoken and not at all diplomatic? I can just see a Mainer saying "that's a wicked dumb idea, son".
3
The recruiters are definitely amongst us, not just online. They play into the naive notions of belonging and the unfolding of deep-seated hostilities on vulnerable young people who need to stand strong against these subversives. Take pride in yourselves as young Americans by vowing to work with the authorities to end the violence perpetrated by ISIS. Schools and universities are places where ideologies are born and tested - let us work toward developing the correct attitudes, respect and peaceful thinking we want to lead the next generation.
7
Blood will always be thicker than water. In a diverse society, there is no real "us" to work together for a better society. Ethnic and cultural diversity within a single state always eventually leads to conflict and problems -- in every country and in every era. Read this article: "Us and Them: The Enduring Power of Ethnic Nationalism", published in Foreign Affairs and easily found online using Google. The article analyzes Europe during the period of the two world wars, but its conclusions turn the received wisdom about multicultural states on its head. It was written by a Jewish American professor. Read it.
1
Just a thought as I remember the 60s and 70s, when numerous young people were becoming hippies, joining cults, etc. Would these (mostly) young people of today be attracted to ISIS if they could find something shocking (but less lethal) that they could do at home?
2
I don't remember any hippies or cultists running off to join the Viet Cong,
even with all the disgust with the U.S. efforts there. Something's very different in these Middle East conflicts.
even with all the disgust with the U.S. efforts there. Something's very different in these Middle East conflicts.
8
How long will young (and older) minds continue to be twisted by Islamic fundamentalist madness? I don't know whether to feel pity or anger, or both, about these conversions from otherwise normal Muslims into murderous Muslims. But I do know that if they succeed in getting to the killing fields of Syria and Iraq, they too will most likely die and that their abbreviated lives will amount to nothing more than vague memories of their few loved ones. They will accomplish nothing by their so-called jihad except to kill other human beings who have caused them no harm or offense beyond holding different religious beliefs. What a pathetic waste of this wondrous thing we call human existence on one of the most beautiful planets in our galaxy.
27
Like a lot of citizens of this country, my Irish, English and German ancestors have fought, lived, and died on this soil, even long before 1776. I feel for the families of these "kids", but that's it. Let them leave, and make GD sure they NEVER set foot back in this country. This is a beautiful country to live in, warts and all. By all means, these "frustrated," and "disengaged," individuals should GET OUT, AND BE KEPT OUT forever, no exceptions. Go and pursue your distorted realities on the other side of the planet, good luck.
49
Perhaps the US should really consider mandatory military service . It seems to be what motivates these youngsters .... Just curious how many of them are video "Gamers" just taking it to the next level?
5
None of the photos in newspapers or reports on TV shows talk about the daily prayers or the charities ISIS is involved in. It is about brutality, beheadings, burying and burning people alive, and crucifixions. The stories are bout selling the wives, daughters, and sisters of men ISIS murdered into slavery. There are many countries that people can go and live in a predominantly Muslim environment. What they see is a bunch of AKs held high, and defiance. Those images are what draws many. Religion provides the excuse.
14
List one "the charities ISIS is involved in" .....
8
You're saying that they didn't do these thing? or that it's OK with you?
2
ISIS = Ignorance Savagely Indoctrinating Slavery
6
Congress needs to pass a declaration of war against ISIS. Anyone who leaves the USA to join ISIS should have their passport cancelled and citizenship revoked. While ISIS is a problem we have a bigger threat in this country; some of the right wing militias intent on overthrowing our Federal Government.
10
Why not have Obama issue an Executive Order?
1
The "right wing militias" are hardly a threat. When they can get the shoulder fired missiles, 30 caliber machine guns and Rocket Propelled Grenades as easily as these ISIS people and others do I'll start to worry.
I wonder whether people who are less accustomed to abstract societies (where trades, professionalization, and urbanization are not developed or only recent, a generation or two deep) would be more likely to succumb to ISIS or other militant propaganda. If WWII is any indication, the following generation is very sensitive to military recruitment, despite that they should be the ones that should be most aware of the war atrocities. No offense to the Somali people, but I think their kids have harder time fighting the perceptions of being a warrior as a ‘manly’ occupation, than say Dutch immigrants, whose predecessors have worked in trades for many generations. I am watching Selfridge (nostalgia for Downtown Abbey) and it is interesting to see how a merchant is portrayed as having honor and character. As my predecessors were mostly farmers, it is more difficult for me to see a merchant as a ‘manly’ job. My post, thus, is stemming from recognizing my own biases, and wondering whether others share them. We all live in an abstract society, but some of us have benefited from generations of adaptations, and some of us have not. I hope that recognizing that would help save some of those young people.
3
That is an interesting observation. I think, though, that boys of all cultures and and at certain age, seem to have a testosterone surge which creates a willingness to do things that are big and dangerous, without thinking of the consequences.
6
Minnesota has been hospitable to resettlement of people from beset areas all over the world - impressively, given the area's relatively homogeneous 20th century demographics.
Vietnamese, Hmong, Ethiopian and Liberian communities struggled and then assimilated. The Somali Community has been harder to integrate, partly because of its insularity with regard to women and the ways in which family relationships trump other identities.
Go into the Cedar Riverside neighborhood, where mixed rate rental housing is now largely Somali-occupied. You will find adult men packed into coffee houses and cafes, no women or children. Northeast , along Central Avenue, full of storefront mosques and adult men doing nothing.
When these newcomers (some now here for twenty years) and their children never see anything more than television and low-income neighborhoods, disgruntlement and sexual obsession/oppression, is it any wonder they have no idea what a calm American future might mean to them? Adventure is what they are seeking from Jihad; the boys are promised foolish manliness; the girls - well, what really will they get from the jihadis?
Vietnamese, Hmong, Ethiopian and Liberian communities struggled and then assimilated. The Somali Community has been harder to integrate, partly because of its insularity with regard to women and the ways in which family relationships trump other identities.
Go into the Cedar Riverside neighborhood, where mixed rate rental housing is now largely Somali-occupied. You will find adult men packed into coffee houses and cafes, no women or children. Northeast , along Central Avenue, full of storefront mosques and adult men doing nothing.
When these newcomers (some now here for twenty years) and their children never see anything more than television and low-income neighborhoods, disgruntlement and sexual obsession/oppression, is it any wonder they have no idea what a calm American future might mean to them? Adventure is what they are seeking from Jihad; the boys are promised foolish manliness; the girls - well, what really will they get from the jihadis?
8
Why is it that we permit such unskilled and purposeless people to enter and stay in our country? What do we get in return? Strained social service budgets, urban decay and in too many cases, an angry, resentful second generation that grows up wanting to kill Americans.
9
"From Minneapolis to ISIS: An American’s Path to Jihad"
This article is wrong on so many levels. Let me name a few:
Sorry, an American is not going to go to a foreign country to join a group that wants to kill Americans. The person who does this is not an American. Neither a birth certificate nor a naturalization certificate does anything other than confer citizenship - neither piece of paper makes one an American. Being American comes from the heart and the mind.
Sorry, the 29 ISIS recruits in the United States who have been charged with supporting ISIS in Federal court is not a small number. How many people did it take to fly two planes into the World Trade Centers on 9/11/2001? How many people were flying the plane that went flew into the Pentagon? How many people were flying the plane that went down in Pennsylvania, the plane that would have flown into the White House if not for brave Americans who chose to fight the murderers who were aiming to kill more Americans in our nation's capitol?
Sorry, but the 29 small figures you have drawn are not even the tip of the iceberg. The iceberg, the total iceberg, comprises those who support the horror that is ISIS, with their hearts, their minds, their recruiting efforts, and their money.
And none of the ice crystals that comprise the iceberg are Americans.
This article is wrong on so many levels. Let me name a few:
Sorry, an American is not going to go to a foreign country to join a group that wants to kill Americans. The person who does this is not an American. Neither a birth certificate nor a naturalization certificate does anything other than confer citizenship - neither piece of paper makes one an American. Being American comes from the heart and the mind.
Sorry, the 29 ISIS recruits in the United States who have been charged with supporting ISIS in Federal court is not a small number. How many people did it take to fly two planes into the World Trade Centers on 9/11/2001? How many people were flying the plane that went flew into the Pentagon? How many people were flying the plane that went down in Pennsylvania, the plane that would have flown into the White House if not for brave Americans who chose to fight the murderers who were aiming to kill more Americans in our nation's capitol?
Sorry, but the 29 small figures you have drawn are not even the tip of the iceberg. The iceberg, the total iceberg, comprises those who support the horror that is ISIS, with their hearts, their minds, their recruiting efforts, and their money.
And none of the ice crystals that comprise the iceberg are Americans.
16
I am not understanding the fascination media outlets have with a statistically insignificant group of alienated adolescents/young adults who join cult like movement to find meaning in their lives---this is not a new story. I guess one or two articles, maybe, on the psychological profile of personalities that succumb to movements like ISIS, but that is not the intent of these articles. The attractiveness of these individual stories is their connection to a very violent group -- a chance to show another beheading photo---and the not too subtle message that somehow our society is in danger from our adolescent enemies from within--who could not be drawn to an article titled: "From Minneapolis to ISIS. The reality, however, is these individuals are outliers, whose individual stories for them and their families is tragic, but hardly representative of the goals and behaviors of adolescents or young adults in our country.
7
This is a critical issue and the fate of the world might be shaped by these issues. In today's world, a small group of people can kill thousands, potentially millions. Religious fanaticism can take hold quickly.
2
A halfway house? Seems to me the French tried that with one of the Charlie Hebdo killers. Those who join ISIS are like those who joined the Nazis in their early years. They're frustrated and want to beat up or kill their enemies. They yearn for power when they are powerless. They decry the modern age and its decadence. They crave a charismatic leader who will deliver what they lack. Ultimately they will end up either dead or unrepentant or admit to their folly but that is a long way down the road.
16
What surprises you that the rest of the religious world has their own David Korashs and Branch Dividians? Of course we not only assaulted the government for their treatment of right wing fanatics but we've armed them as well from the Supreme Court down to the street. What is so surprising that other groups in the US would follow suit and arm themselves? Hypocrisy is no respecter of groups, cultures or individuals. Do you remember when there were articles in Commentary Magazine claiming there had been no holocaust in America's past even though 92% of the Indian people from first discovery died unnatural deaths? The beginning of truth is self-examination of your cultural prejudices. Think of what the right wing did to Ward Churchill for saying what other's said before and after him. His real sin was to claim that the settler's government had sent smallpox blankets among the Blackfoot Indians in Montana. Something that was published long before Churchill wrote it and attested to by the Blackfoot people of Browning, Montana when I was but a boy. I am now 73; long before Churchill was scrubbed and the requisite collaborationist scholar was trotted out to "expose" him. It's all just political theater of the hokum variety and has little to do with genuine culture, morality or religion and certainly not anthropological science where a lot of these toxic Western ideas first came to the forefront. Think "Racial Theory", Phrenology, etc. It's confusing.
5
What do past abuses have to do, in the end, with the critical issues at hand. To examine our weaknesses and biases is important, I grant you. But are you suggesting that doing what we can do real time to stop recruitment of the young to ISIS is not important? A nation of a marred history must still work to keep the world safe. Sinners are not relieved from their duties to this and the next generation because of their past.
2
As someone whose grandfather came from Russia and wanted to return to live under communism (his life here was hard) we must acknowledge several things - the first is that when you are considering a nation of 300 millions, all sorts of unusual response should be expected at the margins. The second is that for immigrants and ethnic minorities, there will always be oddities about America that drive the immigrant to want to leave. The last is that young men have long sought adventure, whether it is to join the circus or the navy. We may want to stop this particular bad behavior but we ultimately cannot, not completely.
12
Twenty nine out of 2.7 million muslim americans joining with ISIS, or affiliates, this is utterly miniscule.
The seminal threat comes from the return of trained and hardened terrorists, or the potential for individuals who become radicalized and never leave the U.S., to become ISIS alined sleepers, or so called lone wolves, prepared to perpetrate terrorist acts within the homeland.
Those who go and join ISIS or other bonafide terrorist groups should have their passports revoked and their american citizenship voided without due process. No exceptions.
Muslim americans need to overtly and actively work discourage and disclose activity within their religious communities that even suggest the encouragement or fostering or abetting of extremist radicalization or terrorist affiliation. While understandably a special burden, this is also a reasonable responsibility given the nature of the threat.
The seminal threat comes from the return of trained and hardened terrorists, or the potential for individuals who become radicalized and never leave the U.S., to become ISIS alined sleepers, or so called lone wolves, prepared to perpetrate terrorist acts within the homeland.
Those who go and join ISIS or other bonafide terrorist groups should have their passports revoked and their american citizenship voided without due process. No exceptions.
Muslim americans need to overtly and actively work discourage and disclose activity within their religious communities that even suggest the encouragement or fostering or abetting of extremist radicalization or terrorist affiliation. While understandably a special burden, this is also a reasonable responsibility given the nature of the threat.
10
Why stop them from leaving? If the FBI is convinced they are joining a terrorist group, install tracking devices on their luggage. As far as I'm concerned, the moment you decide to join, you're a traitor and lose all your rights.
22
Each story of radicalization has at its heart the disillusionment of an adolescent adrift in life without powerful emotional anchors to family and community.
Those ties that make liberation and self definition possible, meaningful and adaptive flow from families, friends and neighbors and relatives who have participated in the lives of these young men from the beginning. They help them to discover direction and hope and the ability to form lasting and loving relationships in communities that support their growth and development.
They do so throughout childhood and adolescence in universities and trade schools that lead to employment that is productive and that makes possible a life with family and friends.
The absence of such hope leaves them vulnerable with nowhere to go thus subject to the vagaries of radicalization in Islam.
It is a tragedy that is manifest in the transition to lives of despair with criminality, drug abuse, mental illness and marginalization.
We can see these narratives of induction into radical Islam as emblematic of our collective failure to foster communities where family stability and opportunity abounds.
Fighting wars against mythical enemies abroad in the search for oil and dominance to plant the seed of democracy abandons our responsibilities at home for fostering stable communities in which our children can make it throughout their development including that most treacherous of passages into responsible, competent and stable adult life.
Those ties that make liberation and self definition possible, meaningful and adaptive flow from families, friends and neighbors and relatives who have participated in the lives of these young men from the beginning. They help them to discover direction and hope and the ability to form lasting and loving relationships in communities that support their growth and development.
They do so throughout childhood and adolescence in universities and trade schools that lead to employment that is productive and that makes possible a life with family and friends.
The absence of such hope leaves them vulnerable with nowhere to go thus subject to the vagaries of radicalization in Islam.
It is a tragedy that is manifest in the transition to lives of despair with criminality, drug abuse, mental illness and marginalization.
We can see these narratives of induction into radical Islam as emblematic of our collective failure to foster communities where family stability and opportunity abounds.
Fighting wars against mythical enemies abroad in the search for oil and dominance to plant the seed of democracy abandons our responsibilities at home for fostering stable communities in which our children can make it throughout their development including that most treacherous of passages into responsible, competent and stable adult life.
4
The vast majority of "disaffected" Muslim youth leaving Britain, the USA, Australia, France and other Western countries do in fact have intact families, do have a faith community, and are not isolated. Many come from affluent families and have attended private schools, have family businesses, etc. The global experience with this epidemic reflects that THE common factor is religion and a hatred of the very countries that took in the jidahist's immigrant parents or grandparents. Let's stop sugar coating this thing. There are millions of hopeless, homeless, disaffected people living on the streets in the West who have no desire to go out and kill one person, much less slaughter anyone who disagrees with their religion.
25
If it were only ideology that would be challenging but unfortunately we are the latest iteration of predators with a large and quite clever neocotex that makes our potential for savagery all the more lethal. Dominance is in our nature and there is no stable remedy to stave off its terrifying consequences.
Why are we chasing our collective tails in catching these kids and putting them in a "halfway house." The only people who care and are anguished when they leave are their relatives, everyone else is just relieved that they are over there and not here in the US plotting a terrorist event. Let them go and deny them reentry if they survive their contact with ISIS. And certainly don't use taxpayer money surveiling and detaining them when they are trying to leave.
21
If you want to know the real reason these young men and women have the time and energy to enlist in ISIS? Too much free time. Why are these young men and women not gainfully occupied?
I'll tell you why. Today's GOP supports huge billionaire corporations that do not hire or create jobs with provide young adults with adequate income. Instead, the GOP in 6 1/2 years can ONLY create jobs in polluter industries that are linked heavily to Middle Eastern Oil. DUH.
Where ever idle time exists, young adults coming out of college, highly educated with the burden of hundreds of thousands of dollars in unnecessary college loan already have the cards stacked against their futures.
Put yourself in their shoes if you want to make sense of their bitterness and anger at the US today. Greed is creating and exacerbating an entire generation of young people who are hopelessly and endlessly linked to wars not of their making. You start the wars and then you expect them not to be furious about what you did to their futures?
Was your wealth worth it? Was it so important to strut around like peacocks preening with dollars signs in your eyes at every turn? You take the blame for this ...no one else. Those who thought it was their "manifest destiny" to destroy future generations are now paying the huge price. You will not have a moment's peace because you destroyed their futures.
I'll tell you why. Today's GOP supports huge billionaire corporations that do not hire or create jobs with provide young adults with adequate income. Instead, the GOP in 6 1/2 years can ONLY create jobs in polluter industries that are linked heavily to Middle Eastern Oil. DUH.
Where ever idle time exists, young adults coming out of college, highly educated with the burden of hundreds of thousands of dollars in unnecessary college loan already have the cards stacked against their futures.
Put yourself in their shoes if you want to make sense of their bitterness and anger at the US today. Greed is creating and exacerbating an entire generation of young people who are hopelessly and endlessly linked to wars not of their making. You start the wars and then you expect them not to be furious about what you did to their futures?
Was your wealth worth it? Was it so important to strut around like peacocks preening with dollars signs in your eyes at every turn? You take the blame for this ...no one else. Those who thought it was their "manifest destiny" to destroy future generations are now paying the huge price. You will not have a moment's peace because you destroyed their futures.
6
so.....the GOP is responsible for this kid joining ISIS? The plumbing is stopped up in my bathroom, GOP plot or mere coincidence?
9
Hmmm, the counter to you argument is that democrats have created a welfare state that takes away the heroic struggle of you g men to feed their families. Traditionally, men have found their purpose in protecting and supporting their families. These days they go about without a role. I think the effects of politics are much more complicated and ambiguous than you make out.
3
“There has to be someone on the ground to listen to your problems and channel your anger,” Mr. Bihi said.
So there you have the problem and the solution in one sentence.
So there you have the problem and the solution in one sentence.
5
Recruitment of Americans by radicals is nothing new. In the 70's the IRA was in Boston recruiting. They were on the radio recruiting. The face of their leaders and promoters were seen. But those battles seemed far away thus a romantic vision for bored rich and poor desperate kids.
This current Jihadist movement seems hard-edged and bloody from beheadings and bombings of both terrorists and civilians. The leaders hide behind masks.
They just don't make terrorists like they used to.
This current Jihadist movement seems hard-edged and bloody from beheadings and bombings of both terrorists and civilians. The leaders hide behind masks.
They just don't make terrorists like they used to.
6
We give these groups far to much credit and allure when we call them terrorist networks. That has a ring if intrigue to the young. Call them gangs or thugs and I think a simple rebranding in the media will slow some of these misguided 20 somethings from joining.
Thugs and gangs in Chicago, Detroit and LA aren't trying to wipe out whole strains of people. These people are committed to taking over the world, and WWII shows us that appeasement doesn't work.
8
Sadly, most traditional religions are a form of organized ignorance handed down generation after generation. Maybe in 10,000 years we will evolve as a species and learn a deeper truth to follow, but for the foreseeable future I don't see things changing much. Hope I'm wrong of course.
3
A small number of confused, alienated teens will be drawn to all sorts of extremist groups promoting utopian ideals. Remember our moonies, Jim Jones cults and all other cults, remember hippies, remember the Weather Underground and all those other silly groups? The jihadi brand of delusional extremism, because of its violence, is more alarming for the larger society and suicidal for the recruit, but it is not new. I am in favor of trying to rehabilitate teens (not adults) caught before they leave the country, but if they manage to leave, they should never be allowed to return.
3
"Silly groups" do not kill people. Jim Jones, was a sick, deranged - megalomaniac --- he was anything but "silly" Also, as an aging hippie --- the peace, love, and understanding "hippie" philosophy is just as important today as it was for me in the late '60's. Had we gone the route of P,L. & U we would not be having this conversation.
Peace,
gwen
Peace,
gwen
3
Gwen, the drop out society of the late 1960s led to numerous deaths and addictions and failed hopes. Peace and love are ideals, but when unbalanced by discipline and order, lead to hatred, broken families, and suffering.
3
Our new neighbors just moved in, here in the Twins for a week straight from Kenya, where they had fled a Somali civil war. Their English is shaky or non-existent, but their smiles were wide as they shivered in yesterday's 35 degree weather despite their thrift store coats. (I can see we'll have to explain about long johns and fleece-lined blue jeans.) The two oldest are past school age, but learned American-style football quickly. Will they learn English as quickly without schooling? A parent at our school told me her two older brothers and a sister were killed in the Somali Civil War, and they fled, day by frantic day, one step ahead of violence. They are refugees, not immigrants, from a culture where teachers are a second set of parents and neighbors are family. They don't even know that, in Minneapolis and St. Paul, we have our first Somali candidates and successful politicians working for all citizens in their commjnities. We Americans, whose last major war on our soil was over 150 years ago, we must stretch our souls, be family to our new neighbors. We must remember that only two dozen out of 30,000 plus Somali refugees have enlisted in Isis, while their families wail, grieve, and fight to prevent other young people from being grabbed by extremism. Show me thirty-thousand of any group of people, and I can find a few dozen naifs or troubled souls who can be lured to evil.
Meantime, I've got to go bake cookies for our new family-neighbors.
Meantime, I've got to go bake cookies for our new family-neighbors.
30
Now, that's America! Well done, Tootie.
3
Thank you for this. I think you made me a better neighbor tomorrow.
With one of the criticisms of the West of these young Isis recruits being the greed and empty consumerism of our culture, how incredibly wrong-headed it is to try to rehabilitate them by giving them jobs at Best Buy. Wouldn't some form of community service or meaningful physical work, where they could actually feel they are connected to a community and making a positive contribution, make more sense?
8
Really? Outing the passport specialist who notified the FBI? What are the authorities thinking?
6
Does anyone know if the number of 3000 fighters from Europe that the author of the article estimates are from the EU alone, or is the whole continent (including the Western Balkans)?
"Barbarism is always around civilization, amid it and beneath it, ready to engulf it by arms or mass migration, or unchecked fertility.
Barbarism is like the jungle; it never admits defeat; it waits patiently for centuries to recover the territory it has lost."
From The Story of Civilization" by Will Durant. 1935
An amazingly accurate description of what we have today.
Barbarism is like the jungle; it never admits defeat; it waits patiently for centuries to recover the territory it has lost."
From The Story of Civilization" by Will Durant. 1935
An amazingly accurate description of what we have today.
8
Youth of all walks of life make foolhardy decisions; and a small % join gangs or cults which engage in war, sell drugs, street violence, eco-terrorism and other criminal behavior.
If and when they return, for the protection of the rest of society, I recommend mandatory jail time.
If and when they return, for the protection of the rest of society, I recommend mandatory jail time.
2
Many young men went to Spain to fight in the Revolution including British writer, George Orwell. Seeing people like himself being killed in endless wars could be an impetus. These preemptive invasions of foreign countries has been a recruitment tool. It is not about Islam, as the media would manufacture. Marine Commander, Smedley Butler, said that the flag follows the the money (oil) and the soldier follows the flag.
1
Orwell and most of the foreign volunteers were fighting AGAINST the "Revolution", which was an insurgency by Franco and the Falangists; they were fighting FOR the established government.
5
No, this time, it IS about Islam. Spain is not a good analogy, as it was a precursor to World War II. it was an unsuccessful fight against totalitarian fascism. the big fight against this came a few years later, after "peace in our time" failed to convince a crazy person and all of this loyal followers not to go to war.
This time, it's a little bit different because of the mix of religion which strikes at one of the weak spots in our civilization. we think religion is politically immune and sacrosanct. it took the West centuries of bloodshed to figure this out, and now we have a theocratic enemy. yes it's an enemy, as much as godless atheistic Communism was. it's a religion but it's also an ideology, a very political ideology. we're hamstrung by our beliefs about religion being different than and better than ideology, and in this case that will have to change. we're up against a culture that did not go through the Renaissance or the Reformation. the recruiters are absolutely correct to use the materialism of our society against us. it's been tried before.
This time, it's a little bit different because of the mix of religion which strikes at one of the weak spots in our civilization. we think religion is politically immune and sacrosanct. it took the West centuries of bloodshed to figure this out, and now we have a theocratic enemy. yes it's an enemy, as much as godless atheistic Communism was. it's a religion but it's also an ideology, a very political ideology. we're hamstrung by our beliefs about religion being different than and better than ideology, and in this case that will have to change. we're up against a culture that did not go through the Renaissance or the Reformation. the recruiters are absolutely correct to use the materialism of our society against us. it's been tried before.
4
As I scroll further down the comments, I see quite a few support the notion of let them leave, permanently revoke their citizenship, and deny them re-entry. It's harsh but I'm inclined to agree. Yes, I think our courts, communities, etc should make an effort to reach out to these disillusioned kids, but let's not overdo it. We have plenty of such kids who need assistance AND wish to remain Americans.
Our liberties were gained at a steep price. Those who emigrated to this country have been given a great gift. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
(This somewhat conservative opinion was posted by a tree-hugging liberal, at that)
~TR
Our liberties were gained at a steep price. Those who emigrated to this country have been given a great gift. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
(This somewhat conservative opinion was posted by a tree-hugging liberal, at that)
~TR
17
It is not fair to set our nut jobs loose on Iraqis and Syrians. We have an obligation to those people too.
1
We're talking about Minnesota - where there's a belief that bad things can be made better; damaged kids mended.
It may not make much sense in this case, but that old fashioned progressive sense has roots in Christian and Jewish tradition in the region.
That tradition seems to have escaped some of the shills running storefront mosques and today's GOP - but it isn't a bad tradition on which to meditate.
It may not make much sense in this case, but that old fashioned progressive sense has roots in Christian and Jewish tradition in the region.
That tradition seems to have escaped some of the shills running storefront mosques and today's GOP - but it isn't a bad tradition on which to meditate.
America used to be a beacon of hope, dignity and self-reliance to the world. We produced well-rounded adults that would raise the next generation to truly appreciate the wonder that was the land of the free. Now we produce the self-victimized and, naturally, those who seek victims to exploit.
There is no longer any reason to look to the US for leadership against a force like ISIS: we haven't the courage or moral certitude to engage and defeat such an enemy.
There is no longer any reason to look to the US for leadership against a force like ISIS: we haven't the courage or moral certitude to engage and defeat such an enemy.
8
That's fine. Let as many Americans go to ISIS/Syria that want to. But under NO circumstances should they EVER be allowed to come back to the US
19
Nur is NOT an American he is a TRAITOR ... his family was given a chance to a better life and he chose the life of a loser. By all means NEVER let him back in the country.
14
Cancel any passports of those who have left to join ISIS:
Also: freeze their internet accounts as well as their bank accounts.
Treason must have severe consequences....
Also: freeze their internet accounts as well as their bank accounts.
Treason must have severe consequences....
14
dosen't anyone see the parallel between these young folks joining isis and the young folks who joined the weathermen and the simbianese liberation army in this country not so long ago?The desire of youth to be involved in some "romantic" or Quixotic cause has been around forever. Young people who are poor or not integrated into the society where they find themselves, are more easily swayed . Now in this age of instant communication , this becomes even easier .
And in a related topic all religions have a history of militarism . The Jews fought their way into ancient Palestine , early Islam was spread by the sword , and the Christians have been slaughtering people from one end of this planet to the other . So in the immortal words of Rodney King "why can't we all get along ?"
And in a related topic all religions have a history of militarism . The Jews fought their way into ancient Palestine , early Islam was spread by the sword , and the Christians have been slaughtering people from one end of this planet to the other . So in the immortal words of Rodney King "why can't we all get along ?"
2
Abdi Nur's actions add one more reason to the many good reasons to greatly tighten the immigration policies of the United States.
17
What's wrong with the NYT,don't this guys have the right to make life style choices of choosing career in West Asia.
Instead of stopping this intrepid breed of men & women,we should encourage them to go & settle in Raqqa.
Stopping them at airport is an clear violation of the right to free travel & right to seek employment.
finally,avoid unwanted biographies of such characters.
Instead of stopping this intrepid breed of men & women,we should encourage them to go & settle in Raqqa.
Stopping them at airport is an clear violation of the right to free travel & right to seek employment.
finally,avoid unwanted biographies of such characters.
5
We are dealing with divided loyalties and need to accept that some people in Western countries may feel a stronger affiliation with the beliefs and religion of their motherland. Instead of claiming that all recruits have been brainwashed it is important to accept a cultural clash can exist that may drive people to feel a strong pull to engage in action to protect what they value and cherish.
Isis is a fascinating recreation of the original Caliphate that brings a merging of 21st technology and 6th century war tactics and legal system. Many religious people actually believe in The Day of Judgement and the concept of reward with eternal life in Heaven. Unfortunately it is hard to accept that genocide will be rewarded and if Isis ever reaches Istanbul a massive mirror needs to be instilled that will reflect that they are the Anti-Christ they fear.
The fact that the group is committing armed robbery to appropriate funds for the sect also replicates Mohammed's original practices. At risk of decapitation for writing the truth, Isis is actually repeating the tactics and character of the original founder of Islam. The intent to unify the Levant under the umbrella of a shared religion was admirable; however, the methods were barbaric and seemingly antithetical with common concepts of spiritual virtue.
Finally, was the War on Terrorism and its intent to impose democracy and bring peace to the Middle-East a similar form of "brainwashing" adopted to excuse desecrating Baghdad?
Isis is a fascinating recreation of the original Caliphate that brings a merging of 21st technology and 6th century war tactics and legal system. Many religious people actually believe in The Day of Judgement and the concept of reward with eternal life in Heaven. Unfortunately it is hard to accept that genocide will be rewarded and if Isis ever reaches Istanbul a massive mirror needs to be instilled that will reflect that they are the Anti-Christ they fear.
The fact that the group is committing armed robbery to appropriate funds for the sect also replicates Mohammed's original practices. At risk of decapitation for writing the truth, Isis is actually repeating the tactics and character of the original founder of Islam. The intent to unify the Levant under the umbrella of a shared religion was admirable; however, the methods were barbaric and seemingly antithetical with common concepts of spiritual virtue.
Finally, was the War on Terrorism and its intent to impose democracy and bring peace to the Middle-East a similar form of "brainwashing" adopted to excuse desecrating Baghdad?
3
What gets me is that many of these people join ISIS based on religious beliefs. The US is supposed to allow the freedom to practice one's religion. If a person's religion is calling them to fight in another country, then is it not protected practice for someone to relocate to another country to fight with their religious counterparts?
Now, don't read this as if I'm condoning this type of thing, because I'm not, but what I'm saying is that if someone turns religious and wants to go to another country and join a religious militia, let them. We'll kill them on the battlefield, if that's the case. If they want to fight and die for their religion, then so be it.
But now we have 'pre-crime' charges brought against people for wanting to join their religious brothers in some ridiculous holy war. This seems to go against everything America is supposed to stand for.
Should people go to another country and fight against other people in a religious war? I sure would hope they don't, but it's not my place to say they're wrong. I wish people would stop trying to force their beliefs down everyone's throat and let people practice their religion.
Again, it would be different if those religious people were here in the US trying to kill Americans, but it's wholly different when they're going to another country to fight other people for their own beliefs. It seems that the US government is fine killing other people based on religious differences, but if an American does it. it's terrorism
Now, don't read this as if I'm condoning this type of thing, because I'm not, but what I'm saying is that if someone turns religious and wants to go to another country and join a religious militia, let them. We'll kill them on the battlefield, if that's the case. If they want to fight and die for their religion, then so be it.
But now we have 'pre-crime' charges brought against people for wanting to join their religious brothers in some ridiculous holy war. This seems to go against everything America is supposed to stand for.
Should people go to another country and fight against other people in a religious war? I sure would hope they don't, but it's not my place to say they're wrong. I wish people would stop trying to force their beliefs down everyone's throat and let people practice their religion.
Again, it would be different if those religious people were here in the US trying to kill Americans, but it's wholly different when they're going to another country to fight other people for their own beliefs. It seems that the US government is fine killing other people based on religious differences, but if an American does it. it's terrorism
3
You do have a very slight point, however there is a sense of radical distortion being applied to the concept of "religious freedom"...
2
ISIS has declared war on the West, including the United States and has kidnapped and killed our citizens, including journalists and others who are civilians and not soldiers. It's hard to understand how joining a group that has declared war on your country can be considered anything other than an act of treason.
9
Freedom to practice one's religion may be infringed upon by a number of US laws, especially when the practice of that religion involves killing people. Society's right to live in peace trumps a killer's right to kill in the name of his faith.
3
I see a parallel with the Lincoln Brigade: young idealists risk their lives in a conflict overseas between the forces of good and those of evil. What is different is that today one can be prosecuted for one intentions by the thought police. But the article fails to look beyond immediate intentions to engage underlying concerns and values. If these jihadists are dismissed as pathological rather than taken seriously, the US state is unlikey to counter the trend or for that matter be relevant to youth in general.
The classic, dictionary definition of "jihad" is: holy war against infidels to which all Muslims are obligated. (Larousse, etc.) . No exceptions are entertained whether one lives in Minneapolis, the Middle East. or anywhere else for that matter.
5
Whats wrong with The United States, why they didn't they help single Somali mothers whose sons were stolen by the so called 'IS', these youngsters haven't got fathers to look out for these dangers in the community, if there was a father in the family he would've spotted signs of radicalization. Average mothers are very busy with work and house chores so she doesn't know what her son is doing outdoors. She may believe that he is at the mosque in a safe environment but in reality he may be meeting extremists on the other side of town. Please America help Somali single single mothers but there is numerous obstacles like language environment and no extended family.
2
Your thesis has been disproved many times over by the situation in Britain. Intact families wake up in the morning to find their 15 and 16 year old children have taken their passports, a huge wad of cash, and left for Syria. Anyone who is worried that their minor child is especially susceptible to radicalization should not make that passport available, should go to Mosque with him or her to hear what it being preached, and should be monitoring internet communications.
9
so....what? You want a ramp up of the undercover security apparatus here in the United States? I don't think you'll find too many fans of that proposition in the readership of the NYT.
4
"... these youngsters haven't got fathers ..."
The article explicitly mentions Mr. Nur's father: '[Mr. Nur’s older sister] challenged him, saying that their father “went into shock” ...'
The article explicitly mentions Mr. Nur's father: '[Mr. Nur’s older sister] challenged him, saying that their father “went into shock” ...'
3
We have a similar story to tell here in Australia too; and the U.S. and Australia are not unique in this situation. I am at a total loss to even begin to understand why any normal, sane person would even contemplate going off to fight for such a murderous, atrocious organization such as IS. In fact, I am quite sure that those who do enlist in their ranks from any part of the world, are anything but normal and well balanced. When I look at some of the people who have gone there from the west I tend to see sociopaths who, give every appearance of being able to be placed in one or more of the following categories - having a mental disorder, are ex- or current criminals and are complete social misfits. Sometimes the potential IS recruit can create the image of a well-balanced person but in reality nothing could be further from the truth.
The fact that such an evil, wicked and despicable organization such as IS can attract anyone to its ranks also reminds us of the seductive power of religious indoctrination. More generally, the re-emergence of religious fundamentalism and extremism around the world in recent decades is a major cause for concern.
The fact that such an evil, wicked and despicable organization such as IS can attract anyone to its ranks also reminds us of the seductive power of religious indoctrination. More generally, the re-emergence of religious fundamentalism and extremism around the world in recent decades is a major cause for concern.
17
These kids are bored, jealous that they don't have what others around them have, and resentful of the Western culture in which they were raised likely because their home culture refuses to assimilate.
9
Ahhhh,religions. Doncha just love 'em!
14
When it comes to the funding of ISIS, do we send the money over with those that are now joining them, or do we just sort of slide it in the backdoor?
I am old now, but back in the early 70's I knew people who could have joined a group like ISIS, if it had existed. Instead, they joined the Weathermen or similar groups. They were in their 20s, were idealistic, and saw things in black and white (not unusual in the young). They felt powerless against the injustices of the world and were easily gulled into thinking that violence could combat injustice. And an act of violence gave them a temporary feeling of power. Some of them were killed, some went to prison. Some changed their course and found other ways to contribute to society.
I still remember the allure of radical groups. It's not so different from the allure of the military, where you feel that you have become part of something much larger than yourself, that you aren't just a little nobody anymore. So I can't hate or dismiss the youngsters seduced by ISIS. There but for the grace of God...
I still remember the allure of radical groups. It's not so different from the allure of the military, where you feel that you have become part of something much larger than yourself, that you aren't just a little nobody anymore. So I can't hate or dismiss the youngsters seduced by ISIS. There but for the grace of God...
38
"... where you feel that you have become part of something much larger than yourself, ..."
Religions offer that feeling, so your point doesn't make sense.
Religions offer that feeling, so your point doesn't make sense.
3
I have an different view of what it was to be radical in the early 70s. It did not include becoming part of a chauvinistic group that stoned to death women on a regular basis. Two days ago in Kabul a group of men stoned, beat and then burned a mentally ill young woman. To align the idealism of possibly creating a better world for all with these thugs is an insult to us all.
10
Excellent observation of the immature minds of young people. I too would have been drawn toward extremist activities had my activism not been effective. However, due to my upbringing and admiration for peaceful protest, I would not have been able to kill people - especially innocent people. The killing of innocent people by so-called Islamic State is truly evil. These want-to-be Holy Warriors who kill innocent peope are just the opposite of holy.
4
The closest analogy to ISIS recruiting is the French Foreign Legion, which recruited foreigners to advance French colonial interests. The Foreign Legion was a coming-of age adventure for young men. That's what ISIS recruitment is about, too.
4
A reasonable analogy, but a big part of the allure of the Legion was that it did not matter what you had done up until the time you joined. If you served honorably, you got a new beginning with a new identity and new passport. So, the ultimate objective for many who joined was to blot out their past and get a new start in life. Radicalization had nothing to do with it.
ISIS mainly offers an alleged pathway to paradise through death as a martyr. There is very little, if anything, about a new start in life.
ISIS mainly offers an alleged pathway to paradise through death as a martyr. There is very little, if anything, about a new start in life.
2
I cannot recall the Foreign Legion ever advertising torture, beheading of burning of their prisoners. Even when the former SS soldiers of the German Armed SS divisions joined the Foreign Legion to escape possible imprisonment or even death for crimes committed in WWII, they were expected like the others to learn some French, and to behave and act like members of the armed forces of the democratic nation of France.
I can think of no other quasi ,military or religious group which has bragged and crowed about how bloody minded and violent and cruel they are to anyone not excatly matching their image soldierly craft .This is not even what of what a Sunni Arab Soldier of the 8th century would have thought himself to be.
This is a phenomenon that like similar religious outbreaks in Christendom, will burn itself out with age and the corresponding loss of bloodlust. It happened in the US, even when no one expected the violent and thuggish children of Brooklyn, the Bronx and other depressed parts of the city, ever to make useful citizens of themselves. Nevertheless, it appears they have made the transition, as the numbers show a great decrease in violent crime here.
One can only hope that similar behavior will run it's course among the Muslim extremists as well. It is a sad prospect to think about having to kill so many people just for being profoundly ignorant.
I can think of no other quasi ,military or religious group which has bragged and crowed about how bloody minded and violent and cruel they are to anyone not excatly matching their image soldierly craft .This is not even what of what a Sunni Arab Soldier of the 8th century would have thought himself to be.
This is a phenomenon that like similar religious outbreaks in Christendom, will burn itself out with age and the corresponding loss of bloodlust. It happened in the US, even when no one expected the violent and thuggish children of Brooklyn, the Bronx and other depressed parts of the city, ever to make useful citizens of themselves. Nevertheless, it appears they have made the transition, as the numbers show a great decrease in violent crime here.
One can only hope that similar behavior will run it's course among the Muslim extremists as well. It is a sad prospect to think about having to kill so many people just for being profoundly ignorant.
4
You're making a distinction without addressing the point, which is that neither is a major national security threat.
Ridiculized is a more apt term than Radicalized. These pathetic misguided youth have watched too many Bruce Willis action films and they fantasize that their lives are going to be like the action movies they watch while they are high on vainglory and or drugs.
The better route for these vile skinny wretches would be to go to Community College or Technical College and learn the crafts of Electrical methods, Plumbing or Welding.
They could then find decent paying employment--find a young black eyed virgin and get married and have children.
Rather than follow the difficult and honest road to honest employment they watch movies and become RIDICULIZED into RIDICULOUS FIGURES who will die or be grievously wounded in South West Asia.
The better route for these vile skinny wretches would be to go to Community College or Technical College and learn the crafts of Electrical methods, Plumbing or Welding.
They could then find decent paying employment--find a young black eyed virgin and get married and have children.
Rather than follow the difficult and honest road to honest employment they watch movies and become RIDICULIZED into RIDICULOUS FIGURES who will die or be grievously wounded in South West Asia.
8
This article greatly underestimates the number of Americans, mostly young, who are flirting with ISIS. I often see young men, whom I suspect are being seduced by ISIS members online. There are certain telltale signs, including behaviors and physical traits, especially the scraggly beard. I hope our intelligence agencies are not too far behind the eight ball in shutting down this clever recruitment process.
And we need to offer young people something to believe in and belong to here at home. They need a sense of purpose with respect to something positive. This is not rocket science. We can do it.
And we need to offer young people something to believe in and belong to here at home. They need a sense of purpose with respect to something positive. This is not rocket science. We can do it.
6
No, we can't. The leaders of Islam can do it. We will know when their message has changed: no more beheading, no more stoning, no more burning to death, no more teaching that to kill an 'infidel' is holy. Those who teach that Islam is the 'religion of peace' must walk the walk.
1
For foreign fighters joining ISIS in the Middle East: Revoke citizenship or Permanent Resident status and deny re-entry.
For radical imams promoting jihad in American mosque: do the same and exile. Arrest also of necessary.
For radical Muslims promoting jihad online: monitor Internet and remove websites. I bet those ISIS websites can't be seen in China. Sometimes some censorship is good.
For radical imams promoting jihad in American mosque: do the same and exile. Arrest also of necessary.
For radical Muslims promoting jihad online: monitor Internet and remove websites. I bet those ISIS websites can't be seen in China. Sometimes some censorship is good.
6
unfortunately, being from israel n having experience w this issue n how this terrorists' culture operates, i believe its only a matter of time til the fighting is imported onto american soil
2
Consider how many innocent Muslims we killed accidentally in the Mid East in the last 25 years. Oh, our government doesn't keep track because....Because why? Count how many we killed deliberately. Oh, they don't count them either. Ever wonder why not? It's a miracle the entire Muslim world isn't attacking us.
10
@ Hector - So, it's America's fault?
4
Its no miracle. Our enemies arent attacking us because were stronger militarily. If they could defeat us they would start trying yesterday.
4
Why can't we let these people go join ISIS? Who wants them here? Just make it clear to them that they can never come back. Life and eventual death in ISIS will be their fitting reward.
19
Because, as these punks are proving daily, they go but have "intentions" of returning to secretly re-enter the country and , in disguise, to sow havoc and death among innocent Americans, especially the girls who they so desire for their personal "use", like kleenex, and the children they claim will grow up to be soldiers and fight Islam. This is why we cannot "just let them go" and ,magically keep them from returning.
3
Tattoo them and then let them leave, never to return
2
"Deradicalizing": Creating Global NGO Ombudsman Fora.
Many young people from developed countries are joining the fight in the Middle East on the side of ISIS. But is tightened security and attempts to "deradicalize" (a very vague term, no one really knows what to "deradicalize" should look like) the would-be radical Islamic fighters an effective approach to this problem?
Even in the most democratic countries there is this problem, let alone in countries with authoritarian governments: there are many people who are dissatisfied with their lot, who have nowhere to go and complain. Those people either try to bear their predicament the best they can, or they try to improve their existence by illicit means.
I think that a better approach to this would be to try to find out what makes those people discontent to the point to want to join the enemies of their countries, or to engage in antisocial behavior, and then try find ways addressing the causes.
From all the available ways of dealing with any such and similar problems the most adoptable one, I think, could be the institution of Ombudsman (usually a government appointed individual), but applied fully independently of any existent forms government in the form of NGO fora, where the people could present their discontent, the causes of it could be discerned, and meaningful recommendations for how to deal with those causes could be made.
Thank you, Hearthstone.
Many young people from developed countries are joining the fight in the Middle East on the side of ISIS. But is tightened security and attempts to "deradicalize" (a very vague term, no one really knows what to "deradicalize" should look like) the would-be radical Islamic fighters an effective approach to this problem?
Even in the most democratic countries there is this problem, let alone in countries with authoritarian governments: there are many people who are dissatisfied with their lot, who have nowhere to go and complain. Those people either try to bear their predicament the best they can, or they try to improve their existence by illicit means.
I think that a better approach to this would be to try to find out what makes those people discontent to the point to want to join the enemies of their countries, or to engage in antisocial behavior, and then try find ways addressing the causes.
From all the available ways of dealing with any such and similar problems the most adoptable one, I think, could be the institution of Ombudsman (usually a government appointed individual), but applied fully independently of any existent forms government in the form of NGO fora, where the people could present their discontent, the causes of it could be discerned, and meaningful recommendations for how to deal with those causes could be made.
Thank you, Hearthstone.
Did monotheism--the three Abrahamic religions--cause much of the ensuing havoc in the world?
4
actually, it's the dominator culture - the authoritarian, centralized, hierarchical, patriarchal culture that we are all somewhat infected with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominator_culture
some researchers blame settled agriculture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominator_culture
some researchers blame settled agriculture.
1
What a brilliant and enlightened idea to use reintegration instead of incarceration. The latter fuels anger, which exacerbates the problem. We need to include these defectors not alienate them further.
2
Nice thought but it's not working in Britain or the Scandanavian countries. The French way of approaching the matter is much more effective.
6
Oh sure, let them come back and they can live next door to you. I am increasingly getting angry at people that think all they have to do is talk to someone and they will bend to their will. If these people want to kill you they will as they kill themselves. They see no value to life and couldn't care less about yours.
7
why do you give these people press
10
"...shows how hard it is to predict who will be swept away by ideological fervor."
"With no clear pattern among recruits..."
OK, let's see now, we have Abdi Nur, Abdullahi Yusuf, "two dozen young men with Somali roots", Abdirizak Bihi's nephew, Mohammed Hamzah Khan, "Michael Todd Wolfe, 23, a convert to Islam", "Chloe, a Muslim convert from San Francisco",...
No clear pattern, huh?
"With no clear pattern among recruits..."
OK, let's see now, we have Abdi Nur, Abdullahi Yusuf, "two dozen young men with Somali roots", Abdirizak Bihi's nephew, Mohammed Hamzah Khan, "Michael Todd Wolfe, 23, a convert to Islam", "Chloe, a Muslim convert from San Francisco",...
No clear pattern, huh?
9
"No clear pattern, huh?"
Most Muslims don't join ISIS, so what is the "clear pattern"?
Most Muslims don't join ISIS, so what is the "clear pattern"?
1
please explain what kind of fervor led europeans to exterminate most of the native americans on this continent? is there a pattern?
Greed led Europeans to exterminate Native Americans - a desire for land.
I am ashamed and very mad that these people who came here do this as our reward. I am an immigrant here. You have to adapt, or dont come here. The United States and especially Minnesota is not a tough place to live in. This little creep needs to be dealed with.
14
"... these people who came here ..."
The article is vague on this point, but it says Mr. Nur’s parents were immigrants, and Mr. Nur is American. That seems to mean that Mr. Nur was born in the US.
"This little creep needs to be dealed with."
What do you suggest?
The article is vague on this point, but it says Mr. Nur’s parents were immigrants, and Mr. Nur is American. That seems to mean that Mr. Nur was born in the US.
"This little creep needs to be dealed with."
What do you suggest?
As a teenager growing up in Berkeley in the 60's I was acquainted with a few fellow students who were looking forward to 'the revolution' and expressed a desire to be 'ready'. If there were this brand of internet recruitment around then, I wonder how these kids lives might have played out. One of the kids was the son of a dentist and lived a life of affluence that far exceeded that of my family. At the time I could not understand it. Now I see that it was his kind of naive altruism.
10
"... expressed a desire to be 'ready'."
What did they do to "be 'ready'"?
What did they do to "be 'ready'"?
You have got to admit this article is frightening. As one person wrote this is like Germany in the mid 30's. I believe that history repeats it's self. That I think is true of the ISIS. They are in my mind a real threat to all civilized countries of the world. You can't fight a war of attrition against the ISIS like we did against Germany and Japan. The question is how do you best stop a terrorist organization? The other question is how do you stop another group from taking it's place?
6
"As one person wrote this is like Germany in the mid 30's."
What are you referring to by "this"?
What are you referring to by "this"?
$64,000 questions! An answer to the first might be to have a US president who is not in denial nor arrogant.
1
I have co-workers who came here from Somalia and their hard work and expertise are serving Minnesota, the US and the Somali American community . I wish more could share their smiles and dedication.
An Atlantic Monthly article this month suggests that the Isis behavior is true to a certain, not uncommon, but very radical, view of Islam. This fits with my growing conviction that Isis followers are caught up in an apocalyptic cult of true believers with centralized controlling leadership that creates us/them divide to deepen isolation and reinforce grievances, etc. Jonestown cult? The Japanese cult that set out Sarin gas? North Korea? Same pattern. I hope that this is something that US and other leaders are thinking about. Beyond me to know what to do about it.
An Atlantic Monthly article this month suggests that the Isis behavior is true to a certain, not uncommon, but very radical, view of Islam. This fits with my growing conviction that Isis followers are caught up in an apocalyptic cult of true believers with centralized controlling leadership that creates us/them divide to deepen isolation and reinforce grievances, etc. Jonestown cult? The Japanese cult that set out Sarin gas? North Korea? Same pattern. I hope that this is something that US and other leaders are thinking about. Beyond me to know what to do about it.
7
Not unlike the American "Christians" seeking to perfect apocalypse through weird support of Israel - or of gun culture in the US.
This community in the Twin Cities is about religion from beginning to end. They were brought in the very early 80s under sponsorship by various Lutheran (primarily) churches around the metropolitan area, but they seemed to concentrate in eastern St. Paul. After only a few years, the churches seemed to pull out and leave them largely on their own. I was on the council of one of these churches, and our decision to pull back was almost entirely based on the community not showing any interest in establishing themselves, but rather figuring out how to maximize their public assistance. Over time, they have established themselves in the 7 Corners area near the West Bank of the UofM, and gang violence exploded. Rival Somali gangs are fighting for control of the public housing apartments on Riverside Avenue.
Minnesotans are generally tolerant and generous people (excluding Bachmann and her ilk), but you would not believe the universal distain and almost hatred in the Twin Cities for this community. There are calls every day for them to be deported by groups and people of whom you would be flabbergasted that they ever said such things. That they are going back for jihad only makes the problems of this community infinitely worse.
Minnesotans are generally tolerant and generous people (excluding Bachmann and her ilk), but you would not believe the universal distain and almost hatred in the Twin Cities for this community. There are calls every day for them to be deported by groups and people of whom you would be flabbergasted that they ever said such things. That they are going back for jihad only makes the problems of this community infinitely worse.
20
For those of us not in Minnesota, can you please further elaborate as the Somalii community's efforts to assimilate and become American?
2
I always wonder why so many Somalian women in the Twin Cities are single mothers with four kids on welfare (as a taxi driver, I give them free medicaid rides to the free medicaid doctor appointments). I have come to the conclusion that many are married under Islamic law, but not under civil law, so they can collect welfare money.
6
Several years ago, I read an opinion piece on Somalia. The primary story was about their fractured government, or rather lack of government. Seems the Somalis are united by religion and family/tribe. There are five tribes in the country. Each tribe hates the other four tribes. It's been this way for hundreds if not thousands of years.
And we Westerners think we can change that history?
And we Westerners think we can change that history?
2
So sad that compared to the repressive environment offered by ISIS that these weak individuals would choose that life...over life in the USA...sure things may be difficult. ..but you dont lose your life because your a Christian, Hidu, etc..
3
If you are white your point is moot. It is not easy as a minority in America. Please don't discount that. It's like kids who join gangs. They feel accepted
Maybe they feel accepted, but most gang members are not anti-US, anti-West, anti faith, and their actions don't revolve around an apocalyptic vision of getting to heaven through slaughtering infidels.
2
There is an inherent need in each human to be heroic. The theory is that it is a response to the ontological terror of death/annihilation. This is well documented in psychology.
Once youths join they are required to perform brutal acts which further ties them to the cult. The Nazi's had a term for this, translated as 'blood cement' and it is used by many cults, e.g., the Manson Family.
This 'heroic' need must be addressed in some way in our society. Consumer capitalism just isn't enough. This is a deep problem of human behavior. Psychology has recognized it. It's just that now-a-days psychology is so out of favor.
Once youths join they are required to perform brutal acts which further ties them to the cult. The Nazi's had a term for this, translated as 'blood cement' and it is used by many cults, e.g., the Manson Family.
This 'heroic' need must be addressed in some way in our society. Consumer capitalism just isn't enough. This is a deep problem of human behavior. Psychology has recognized it. It's just that now-a-days psychology is so out of favor.
5
Why, then, does this cultish recruitment appeal almost exclusively to Muslim youths? If what you say is true, why aren't homegrown jihadists from all immigrant classes and all faiths signing up for ISIS?
3
Maybe there is an inherent need to be heroic but there's a basic need that's even stronger and that's the need to be wanted; to be part of a group. If these people are being led away, it's because they feel that they aren't wanted here and are being lured away by the promise of the chance to feel the warmth and love of a group of people who will accept them. If I were looking for a reason why young folks are joining these thugs, I'd look first at home.
9
"The theory is that it is a response to the ontological terror of death/annihilation. This is well documented in psychology."
Please cite a source, so we don't have to guess what "theory" you are talking about.
Please cite a source, so we don't have to guess what "theory" you are talking about.
2
As someone who lives in Minneapolis, I have seen the difficulties faced and presented by the Somali community here. First, it is important to note that the reason for so many Somalis in the Twin Cities and elsewhere in Minnesota is that they were welcomed here as refugees by Voluntary Organizations that worked with the US State Department: organizations like Lutheran Social Services and Catholic Charities. The Somali community in Minnesota, therefore, represents a beneficiary of good will. There have been social services, housing services, and disability services established to serve the Somali immigrant community here: efforts to help a very different culture, indeed, integrate into the area. The Somali community therefore must expect some frustration regarding these recent developments involving their youth. If the situation were otherwise, and Caucasian Minnesota youth were targeting Somalis for harm, you can be sure there would be an outcry of injustice from their spokespeople. Let's adhere to a single standard and demand accountability for how we treat each other. That accountability extends to Somalis who live here.
31
This article is all the more reason why we need to have volunteers go and fight against ISIS. With any luck they will kill as many of these hoodlums as possible (including Mr. Nur).
8
'His most recent post came on March 8. “All Warfare,” he wrote, “Is Based on Deception.”'
That quote is from the Chinese military strategist Sun-Tzu. Not very Islamic.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu
That quote is from the Chinese military strategist Sun-Tzu. Not very Islamic.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu
9
It's also in the Hadith of Bukhari 52:269 The Prophet said, "War is deceit".
@FromBrooklyn: Thanks for pointing that out. "War is deceit" is not what Mr. Nur posted. What English translation of are you using? Is there another one? Could you post the Arabic text?
Have you heard that profiling is a necessity and that it is more effective as well as revealing than not?
7
Just another liberal hero. What's new?
2
Who on earth is the "liberal hero," Walter Bally? What does liberalism or conservatism have to do with this anyway?
1
Your comment shows bias and further deteriorates cooperation amongst ALL sides to find a solution. We need to work TOGETHER and not stand behind the conservative or liberal brands.
To call Nur a "liberal hero" is incorrect and offensive. You are falling into the old "divide and conquer", playing exactly into their hands.
To call Nur a "liberal hero" is incorrect and offensive. You are falling into the old "divide and conquer", playing exactly into their hands.
2
ISIS is as conservative and right wing as it gets.
1
The Atlantic had an informative article saying Muslims are not going to ISIS lightly, but responding to Baghdadi's call for strict fundamentalist Islam in its earliest 7th century beginning. Islam has become corrupt in ME and must be rebooted, by him.
ISIS' writings & speech are full of religious quotes and wanting to purify their lands, first of their own Muslim infidels (Shiites, Sufis, laxity), then the monarchs and leaders who've left the people behind while they live large.
It's a holy charge scaring Saudi Arabia as well as Iran, et al.
They're taking it "by the book" and many feel there's finally a caliph to lead them, the real deal. Anyone not with them is an infidel to be enslaved or killed as this builds to a climax against the "army of Rome", thought to be USA.
Understanding that they think this is end times and importance to them of being there & part of the apocolyptic scenario, taken right out of Mohammed's early days, seems integral if we are to get a grip on ISIS.
No wonder groups are sprouting up claiming allegiance--not AlQueda yet though, who's focused on the West & against killing other Muslims.
Right now the most holy call has gone out to come fight or help.
Fundamentalist religion + powerful idealistic emotions & seeking martyrdom won't be stopped by an arrest.
How do we stop them. But we can't let them come back, no matter how sad the story.
ISIS' writings & speech are full of religious quotes and wanting to purify their lands, first of their own Muslim infidels (Shiites, Sufis, laxity), then the monarchs and leaders who've left the people behind while they live large.
It's a holy charge scaring Saudi Arabia as well as Iran, et al.
They're taking it "by the book" and many feel there's finally a caliph to lead them, the real deal. Anyone not with them is an infidel to be enslaved or killed as this builds to a climax against the "army of Rome", thought to be USA.
Understanding that they think this is end times and importance to them of being there & part of the apocolyptic scenario, taken right out of Mohammed's early days, seems integral if we are to get a grip on ISIS.
No wonder groups are sprouting up claiming allegiance--not AlQueda yet though, who's focused on the West & against killing other Muslims.
Right now the most holy call has gone out to come fight or help.
Fundamentalist religion + powerful idealistic emotions & seeking martyrdom won't be stopped by an arrest.
How do we stop them. But we can't let them come back, no matter how sad the story.
29
how do we also stop the christian fundamentalists who advocate violence? let's not let them come back.
5
I have to learn the art of exposing this issue without getting blocked by Nyt. Good comment.
4
Please cite the violence that Christian fundamentalists are wreaking - I must've missed that in years of reading the NYT. We're talking about actual violence perpetrated, not thoughts or fiery rhetoric. ISIS is out there slaughtering Muslims, Christians, Jews and anyone else who doesn't agree with them by the tens of thousands. It's problematic if someone in the West doesn't think this is a big deal.
1
Abdi Nur is not an American, he is a lost cause that we tried to give shelter. We are better of with him in ISIS rather than in the USA. Good riddance.
24
This half way house for juveniles sounds like a very very good idea.
1
The western system of civics works only if religion is separated from civics.
Those people who want to conflate religion and politics, be the religion nominally Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or otherwise are essentially a threat to our way of life and the existence and perpetuation of our system of civics. This might include Christians such as Huckabee.
But for most Christians the separation of religion and civics should be easy to roll with because Jesus commanded that his followers do as such.
However, BigMoney GOP needs single issue voters that vote against their interets, such a religious voters, so they have penetrated and hijacked a lot of Christian sects to abandon this commandment from Christ (such as the southern baptist). This is a big threat to our democracy but it is reparable as long as Christians can be reminded of Christ's commandment.
However with Muslims this is a much different deal. Islam by definition believes in the merger of religion and civics. Not all sects are wedded to the literal interpretation of this concept, but Isis is, by definition a manifestation of this concept.
People who go off to join Isis are against the separation of religion and civic as a matter of principle and belief.
Given that, aren't they doing us a favor by leaving? Shouldn't we let them go? Shouldn't we wish them goodbye, and just make sure we don't allow them back in unless they convincingly fore swear away their former belief in the conflation of civics and religion?
Those people who want to conflate religion and politics, be the religion nominally Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or otherwise are essentially a threat to our way of life and the existence and perpetuation of our system of civics. This might include Christians such as Huckabee.
But for most Christians the separation of religion and civics should be easy to roll with because Jesus commanded that his followers do as such.
However, BigMoney GOP needs single issue voters that vote against their interets, such a religious voters, so they have penetrated and hijacked a lot of Christian sects to abandon this commandment from Christ (such as the southern baptist). This is a big threat to our democracy but it is reparable as long as Christians can be reminded of Christ's commandment.
However with Muslims this is a much different deal. Islam by definition believes in the merger of religion and civics. Not all sects are wedded to the literal interpretation of this concept, but Isis is, by definition a manifestation of this concept.
People who go off to join Isis are against the separation of religion and civic as a matter of principle and belief.
Given that, aren't they doing us a favor by leaving? Shouldn't we let them go? Shouldn't we wish them goodbye, and just make sure we don't allow them back in unless they convincingly fore swear away their former belief in the conflation of civics and religion?
32
They should only be allowed back in a box. You make good points in your post. Thanks.
1
"This might include Christians such as Huckabee."
No fan of the former governor, and I don't follow his public pronouncements but, what has Huckabee done to be conflated with ME head-choppers? Who, among Americans, uses Huckabee, or anything he has written or said, as an imprimatur to grotesque violence?
No fan of the former governor, and I don't follow his public pronouncements but, what has Huckabee done to be conflated with ME head-choppers? Who, among Americans, uses Huckabee, or anything he has written or said, as an imprimatur to grotesque violence?
1
Right wing extremists, be they muslimists, christianists or whatever, are the same species with different stripes. The vocabulary they use is the same. The sense of victimization (in the face of great privilege) is the same. The appetite for violence is the same. The myopia is the same. The fear they feel is the same. It is an absolute conviction that God serves their politics and anyone who disagrees with them are enemies of God and are not just wrong or stupid, but evil. One little step further and they become violent. One can even see in these comments these absurd right wing extremist claims that somehow liberals are to blame. It makes no sense except in the warped minds of radical right wing extremists. They are the same animal.
Although there may be some degree of new found religious fervor, the situation reminds me of recruiting for groups like the skin-heads. Disaffected youths, who function marginally in society, angry about their lives and injustices they experience (real and/or imagined) offered the opportunity to be somebody; offered the possibility of a certain kind of power; offered direction, and acceptance into the group. As is the case with other groups, ISIS suggests to their recruits exclusivity, the opportunity to 'see the light,' which others do not see, and the possibility of excitement beyond a meaningless, hum-drum life.
16
I submit that the average disaffected person is not interested in, and would be appalled, by IS' delight in raping women and little girls, beheading people, mass slaughters of minority faiths, etc. That this "lifestyle" appeals to so many youth is a reflection of how sick society has become. Yes, the Nazis did the same thing and we held them accountable eventually. No appeasement is the only answer to these situations.
1
A possible measure could be, after proper investigation as to its constitutionality, to invalidate the passports of anyone who joins these barbarians. It's a kind of after the fact measure but it might dissuade others from going.
14
Well, a more helpful idea is to simply put an immigration hold on them, which apparently they've done, and arrest them and throw them in jail.
I was thinking about those who are citizens. There could be a general law that prohibits such adventurism, but it means that it would also include those who go and join groups which favor. Anyhow, some sort of regulation to hold back both the thoughtless and the dangerous.
It makes no sense to imprison these men for long terms if they are caught on their way there. Why would parents report their sons if they felt they are going to be imprisoned?
I have always wondered what it is about young men that they seek glory in wars, and it occurred to me, that young men have always been like that, wired that way.
Didn't Ernest Hemingway and countless Americans do to Spain on the side of the communists to fight in Spain?
I have always wondered what it is about young men that they seek glory in wars, and it occurred to me, that young men have always been like that, wired that way.
Didn't Ernest Hemingway and countless Americans do to Spain on the side of the communists to fight in Spain?
17
If you were a parent, wouldn't you prefer imprisonment and the chance of getting your son (or daughter) back in one piece and getting a second chance to assisting them in becoming a murderer with a great chance of getting killed? If they were going to the Mid East to stop Isis from demeaning Islam and butchering other Muslims I would have a lot more sympathy. Those Americans who went to Spain to fight the facists were brave men. These going to fight for Isis are brainwashed fools.
5
Hemmingway and countless Americans went to Spain to fight with for the democratically elected government of Spain - -against the fascist insurgents.
3
Yes, it seems young people -- especially young men -- are looking for a meaningful cause and perhaps the drama and toughness that go along with it. War, weapons, comradeship and the feeling of doing something important can sway a vulnerable person's mind.
1
A young man begins attending a new Mosque, and shortly thereafter becomes radicalized? No wonder the FBI is keeping an eye on these mosques. Flinch if you will. The reality is that these mosques are the portals through which ISIS is reaching into our nation and recruiting young, disaffected men and women.
73
Apologists and minimizers will say the two are not related. But the fact that a NYT article reports this connection despite being experts in the practice of Harmony-Over-Truth, lends it a lot of credence.
3
Who is flinching???
1
A young man has a liking for traditional Arab dress and becomes radicalised? FBI needs to keep an eye on these people wearing these comfortable, flowing, airy garbs.
The difference between Isis and the German government from 1933-1945 is...?
Readers should read about the 1933 Enabling Act, overwhelming supported by German clergy.
Readers should read about the 1933 Enabling Act, overwhelming supported by German clergy.
19
'The difference between Isis and the German government from 1933-1945 is...?'
Nazi Germany was a modern, industrial nation-state that could build heavy weapons, ships, aircraft, and rockets. ISIS can do none of that.
Nazi Germany was a modern, industrial nation-state that could build heavy weapons, ships, aircraft, and rockets. ISIS can do none of that.
2
ISIS doesn't have to build that stuff - we and the european arms sellers have provided plenty for them to scoop and employ.
2
With enough money, you can do anything. Follow the money but be careful where it leads you.
1
we have a system that does not work for enough people and we have republicans who are bent on making sure this is permanent. so, we have young men of color who have absolutely no reason to feel an allegiance to their country. i don't blame them i blame us.
26
You blame America for radicalizing these "fighters,"
Is that what youre seriously suggesting?
Tbe progress this nation has made,considering
Its troubled history is astonishing.
If these young, ill informed naifs choose to
Go to Syria to kill innocent civilians and our
Own American soldiers ,they deserve exactly
What they get.America is too good for them.
Is that what youre seriously suggesting?
Tbe progress this nation has made,considering
Its troubled history is astonishing.
If these young, ill informed naifs choose to
Go to Syria to kill innocent civilians and our
Own American soldiers ,they deserve exactly
What they get.America is too good for them.
51
Huh??? I would say America does certainly as much as, if not more than, all other countries to help immigrants who have suffered repression. There's some level of effort required by the immigrants to become integrated members of society. You can blame our government for many things, but you can't blame the government for every woe, every problem. Individual responsibility really is a thing....
12
Really? You think it's the republicans' fault?! These young people made a choice. They had opportunities and dreams to go to law school or to college but they opted to choose another, more destructive path. That is not the fault of the United States government or the republicans. To make excuses for them is, in a sense, just encouraging this abhorrent behavior. You can't find a good job, so go to Syria, turn against your country, and kill a few people.
2
Mr. Nur finally realized that “All Warfare Is Based on Deception.” Unfortunately it seemed too late. Perhaps schools and media and adults should start talking about actual warfare rather than glorify or skirt around the brutal reality. This after all is the 21st century, and no one should need the learning-by-doing approach to know war.
5
I think its a quote from the prophet Mohammed,
inamal harbu khid'ah...
and if its that quote that he intended, which is most likely (since the prophet said that during allied campaign against his followers in medina) then he is not missing home... he is hardened philosophical fighter now.
you can find that in the book "The Sealed Nectar" section about the "Battle Against the Allies"..
inamal harbu khid'ah...
and if its that quote that he intended, which is most likely (since the prophet said that during allied campaign against his followers in medina) then he is not missing home... he is hardened philosophical fighter now.
you can find that in the book "The Sealed Nectar" section about the "Battle Against the Allies"..
10
Thank you for the clarification. No redemption then. How sad.
It's from Sun Tzu.
America has tons of problems, as would be expected in any country with well over 300 million people and as much diversity as we have. But, with all of our problems, it's still a place where millions of people desperately try to get to, and some die trying, for some reason. I'm guessing the reason is that we have freedoms here that only a few other countries have, we bend over backwards to accommodate certain repressed people - Bosnians in St. Louis, Somalis in MSP, etc., and the potential to thrive financially exists for anybody here legally.
Having said all that, I love this country, even with all of the problems and all of the right wing and left wing wackos we have here. If people, whether they're people who were born and raised here, or people who immigrated here, want to go fight for something that is against everything America stands for, as well as fight for a group of psychopaths who want to export terror here, we should allow them to go and revoke their passports and citizenship. My suspicion is that most of them will want to come back here (makes you wonder why huh?), so if they make it out alive (this is harsh, but hopefully they don't make it out alive), we should deny entry and send them back to wherever they came from. I don't want the American taxpayer to pay for Muslim radicals to sit, stew, and foment rebellion in American prisons while our tax dollars are paying for it.
Having said all that, I love this country, even with all of the problems and all of the right wing and left wing wackos we have here. If people, whether they're people who were born and raised here, or people who immigrated here, want to go fight for something that is against everything America stands for, as well as fight for a group of psychopaths who want to export terror here, we should allow them to go and revoke their passports and citizenship. My suspicion is that most of them will want to come back here (makes you wonder why huh?), so if they make it out alive (this is harsh, but hopefully they don't make it out alive), we should deny entry and send them back to wherever they came from. I don't want the American taxpayer to pay for Muslim radicals to sit, stew, and foment rebellion in American prisons while our tax dollars are paying for it.
113
Let them go. Easier target as they collect in one place, I know countless decent, honest, sincere, great people in Central America who would love to come here and be good citizens.
Let these cultural illiterates go and no re-entry, no mercy for these ingrates. And I don't want to hear about their "alienation" or some other rot as an excuse for murder and mayhem. Many of us are alienated from the grotesque consumerist "culture" and angry at the misdeeds of the criminal plutocrats--their day is coming.
Isis is a pathetic joke--enjoy Raqqa and don't bother to write.
Let these cultural illiterates go and no re-entry, no mercy for these ingrates. And I don't want to hear about their "alienation" or some other rot as an excuse for murder and mayhem. Many of us are alienated from the grotesque consumerist "culture" and angry at the misdeeds of the criminal plutocrats--their day is coming.
Isis is a pathetic joke--enjoy Raqqa and don't bother to write.
14
So just to be clear-
You love this country but are fine with its citizens replenishing the ranks of a terrorist organization we are supposedly in a life and death struggle with, and ultimately you are more concerned with your miniscule tax dollars than the life of a troubled fellow citizen and their innocent families, or the foreign innocents and/or allied soldiers they might kill. What a citizen you are.....*rolls eyes*
You love this country but are fine with its citizens replenishing the ranks of a terrorist organization we are supposedly in a life and death struggle with, and ultimately you are more concerned with your miniscule tax dollars than the life of a troubled fellow citizen and their innocent families, or the foreign innocents and/or allied soldiers they might kill. What a citizen you are.....*rolls eyes*
1
Thumbs up Jake.... Well written.
Whatever else he is or was, the "Welsh fighter who joined the Nusra Front" and that "Chloe" seems to have married was not a Welshman in any true or accepted sense of the word, but somebody of another ethnicity who was born or lived in Wales; and most likely was on government benefits while there, too.
This is the common profile of ISIL volunteers from the United Kingdom that travel to Turkey on their British passports, and strange it is to see such people occasionally described as "English," "Scottish," or in this case "Welsh."
This is the common profile of ISIL volunteers from the United Kingdom that travel to Turkey on their British passports, and strange it is to see such people occasionally described as "English," "Scottish," or in this case "Welsh."
26
This is just another pathetic example of the craven media's dedication to PC--"Frenchman" didn't shot up Hebdo; Englishmen didn't cowardly murder Lee Rigby; the dupe who went to Syria wasn't an "american but Somali; in each case as with the misleading headlines re:" the growth of antisemitism in Europe" all involve middle easterners.
8
I've also wondered about this. It seems pains are taken to make it seem like they are just regular average westerners, when they are nothing of the sort. Almost without exception, they are first or second generations arab or pakistani immigrants with a penchant for expansionist Islam.
These are not Irish, British and Scottish boys heaving from the pub to the airport.
These are not Irish, British and Scottish boys heaving from the pub to the airport.
4
The number of people involved is vanishingly small. What is the point?
People, youth in particular, are drawn to causes all the time. Nothing unusual about the phenomenon. Identical, in much more significant numbers and occurring for many years is the enrolment of youthful USA Jews into the Israeli armed forces. Where is the article or the aghast commentary about that phenomenon?
People, youth in particular, are drawn to causes all the time. Nothing unusual about the phenomenon. Identical, in much more significant numbers and occurring for many years is the enrolment of youthful USA Jews into the Israeli armed forces. Where is the article or the aghast commentary about that phenomenon?
20
Oh I don't know, maybe the fact that they're drawn to a group of Muslim radicals that is committing atrocities such as mass executions, ethnic cleansing, the destruction of cultural antiquities, selling women and girls............ Maybe that's why???
80
a small number of people are able to create great damage, that's why.
5
Thank you Jake.
3
Allowing these individuals to leave should be made as problem free as possible. Allowing them to ever return should be made impossible. A simpler method of removing dangerous disturbed people from our society has not arrived in decades.
123
the problem is that only a small % of the mentally disturbed will go. The overwhelming majority (i.e., people like the Oklahoma City bombers) will not.
Greg.... agreed
Isis and other groups like it are anarchists, seeking destruction of any society not based on their 16th century version of religion. They do not believe in individual freedoms. They would be incapable of governing, except in a very authoritarian manner. People are drawn to these groups by a need to belong and to give justification and to their violent impulses. Isis exploits the internet to get their message across. These groups are an enemy of civilized societies and seek to destroy them. Shut down their access to the internet and/or block their messaging and we will significantly reduce their power.
24
And I thought raising my teenager was a difficult... I agree that there must have been some clues/behavior changes in these kids, but still, my heart goes out to the parents...
25
The parents fell asleep at the wheel. When my kids were minors, I locked up their passports, didn't keep thousands of bucks around the house for their use, monitored their internet usage, demanded to meet their closest friends, and talked to them about their thoughts on faith. It's called parenting. People don't change overnight, so if parents are really surprised, shocked even, that they can wake up one morning and find their kids have left the country to find ISIS, then I suspect they (the parents) have been turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to their child's "transformation" over a period of time. Finally, it's entirely possible that the parents are radicalized themselves and the children decided to act out on it and go fight with ISIS.
My neighborhood is close to Riverside, where the majority of the Somalis have settled in the Twin Cities. Some aspects of immigration are very encouraging - I rarely see women seated in the back seat while the man drives a car and Somali girls are receiving an education - things which would most likely not take place in their home country.
Unfortunately, Somali youth, typically males, have clashed with not only Caucasians but with African Americans. The situation is very difficult to describe unless you live in the area. The Somali teen males will get into scrapes, perhaps, get arrested and then they are also judged by their Somali community, as well. These are the young men who find themselves attracted by the prospect of going overseas. They are a demographic group ripe for recruitment efforts. Many Somalis long for a life which can't be replicated in Minnesota, at least not for now. Some Somalis have tried to forcibly change work and social services to adapt to their beliefs and they have not been successful. For example, attempts were made to force Target to not require Somali cashiers to scan bacon at the check out and Somalis requested free food banks not distribute pork products. Neither attempt was successful.
Take a look at some of the problems reported at a St. Cloud, MN, high school, this week, causing a walk out.
It's a very sad story with very tragic results.
Unfortunately, Somali youth, typically males, have clashed with not only Caucasians but with African Americans. The situation is very difficult to describe unless you live in the area. The Somali teen males will get into scrapes, perhaps, get arrested and then they are also judged by their Somali community, as well. These are the young men who find themselves attracted by the prospect of going overseas. They are a demographic group ripe for recruitment efforts. Many Somalis long for a life which can't be replicated in Minnesota, at least not for now. Some Somalis have tried to forcibly change work and social services to adapt to their beliefs and they have not been successful. For example, attempts were made to force Target to not require Somali cashiers to scan bacon at the check out and Somalis requested free food banks not distribute pork products. Neither attempt was successful.
Take a look at some of the problems reported at a St. Cloud, MN, high school, this week, causing a walk out.
It's a very sad story with very tragic results.
64
"Some Somalis have tried to forcibly change work and social services to adapt to their beliefs and they have not been successful. For example, attempts were made to force Target to not require Somali cashiers to scan bacon at the check out and Somalis requested free food banks not distribute pork products. Neither attempt was successful."
So the answer is that Target needs to change to the needs of a Muslim Minority? How would this work? Would there be a pork only line or should Target just stop selling items that Muslims do no approve of? What ever happened to the concept of assimilation?
So the answer is that Target needs to change to the needs of a Muslim Minority? How would this work? Would there be a pork only line or should Target just stop selling items that Muslims do no approve of? What ever happened to the concept of assimilation?
79
Rules on pork, etc. are meant to establish conformism and compliance. A simple psychological strategy. History shows that religion is a fraud for conformism, killing,grabbing power and wealth.
1
Assimilation? That doesn't happen any more. I can take you to two sections of my city where no English is spoken. I can introduce you to people who entered the country 10 or more years ago who speak no English. We are teaching 5 year olds who were born here to speak English when they start school. These are not the ethnic enclaves those of us who grew up in New York City remember. They are colonies planted in our midst by people here only to make a buck to send to the home country.
4
This doesn't seem too hard to decipher. The ISIS recruit was Muslim. This is usually a prerequisite. Also, he was radicalized in a Mosque. Despite the very effective public relations campaigns by CAIR and other organizations trying to hide these realities, accusing those who point out these obvious factors as Islamophobes, young Muslim men are often brainwashed by radical Imams in local mosques.
35
Sshh, it's the dirty little not-so-secret "secret" that our government isn't willing to admit to yet. Same thing happened in Nazi Germany when otherwise good citizens refused to admit what the Nazis started to do in the early 1930s.
1
This depicts, in absolutely clear portrayal, the absolute failure of our Educational System.
Apparently unable to discern fact from propaganda, lies and falsehoods from reality, young 'innocents' are led to become either the slaughters or slaughtered in ISIS.
It is, truly, nothing less than a manifest education failure.
Apparently unable to discern fact from propaganda, lies and falsehoods from reality, young 'innocents' are led to become either the slaughters or slaughtered in ISIS.
It is, truly, nothing less than a manifest education failure.
17
If the converts all came from the US, you might have a point. But they don't -- they come from many very liberal European nations that have the kind of educational systems that US liberals point to as examples. They come from all types of free and open societies, and even worse, many of them are eager adherents to the "welfare societies" in those places. Think of the Tscharnov brothers (Boston bombing).
19
Minnesota has one of the strongest public education systems in the U.S., comparable to the best in the world. This is not a failure of a US system. This is the failure of a culture to assimilate. You want to blame a larger influence? Blame radical Islam and its targeting of unassimilated youth, not the public schools.
12
Many parents fail to educate their children about equal rights and morality. Stop shafting blame onto teachers and consider the impact of the belief systems drilled at home. Clear thinking and media analysis are key features of school curriculum. Sometimes you can lead a horse to water...
3
The whole government program to "rehabilitate" "radicalized" youth is ridiculous. "Radicalization" as we know it, is catalyzed by deeper alienating forces within societies that are as impersonal as America. Mere providing of jobs, at a local Best Buy, and enrollment in a Community College won't help. Foreigners like Mr. Nur remain foreigners all their lives because the Somali presence in a snow-white community like that of Minneapolis is similar to the presence of a James Baldwin in the Swiss Alps, as outlined in Baldwin's "Stranger in the Village." The Somalis are more or less cut off from mainstream Minneapolis society and huddle together without any meaningful interaction on an equal footing with the dominant groups. The Somalis are objects of pity and salvation of church groups; barring that they are barely integrated. Until the deeper integration takes place, or unless a Baldwin-like stoicism befalls, the refugee enclaves of America (with the possible exception of the one's in New York City) will remain fertile ground for radicalization.
47
That would assume there are no black people in Minneapolis or other parts of the US. Somali's do not look appreciably different than any other black citizen.
Other immigrants who "look different" have integrated well into the US -- Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodian, Middle Easterners of all types.
Other immigrants who "look different" have integrated well into the US -- Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodian, Middle Easterners of all types.
16
Yes, as a Minnesota resident, a member of the "snow white community" as you put it, we are certainly eager to give even more to this community of immigrants to whom we owe nothing. The Somalis are "cut off from mainstream Minneapolis society"? No. The Somalis refuse participation in mainstream Minneapolis society. For that, they must take responsibility. Other immigrant communities here, like the Hmong, have done remarkably well. Rather than blame the host community for not doing enough for its beneficiaries, it's time for the Somali community to buck up and take responsibility for its own failures. The Swiss Alps owed James Baldwin, the tourist, nothing, just as Harlem owes me nothing. And Minnesota has already provided quite enough. Get a clue.
11
You decry providing jobs or education, but say that greater social integration must occur to marginalize radicalism. What do you think social integration starts with?
If these young people think that “We are fighting for truth and justice and you (americans/westerners) are fighting for oppression and worldly gain" they are wrong and merely replaced an imagined task master with a real one.
The goal of the group they joined is clearly out for worldly gain. They've taken over oil fields and know how to take money for themselves and take money away from those who earned it. They are murderers of innocents who work for a living, believe their beliefs, and bother no one. Their need to destroy history and precious artifacts shows their egotistical obsession that they are superior. This group is offering paradise? Has anyone been there and back? Have they delved into the theology of this and learned that in their teachings in the end Jesus will return? The same Jesus who said love one another as I love you, not murder anyone who disagrees with you. Do they know that Abraham is the father of their religion as well as Christianity and Judaism? So Christians and Jews are their brothers. Do they know the ten commandments and thou shalt not kill applies to them too? And do they have any inkling that all this is manipulation from oil business worldwide? They are creating hell in the belief they will be rewarded with paradise. If they had seen passed the marketing skills of their recruiters, they would recognize that they are being used by those truly seeking worldly gain and oppression.
The goal of the group they joined is clearly out for worldly gain. They've taken over oil fields and know how to take money for themselves and take money away from those who earned it. They are murderers of innocents who work for a living, believe their beliefs, and bother no one. Their need to destroy history and precious artifacts shows their egotistical obsession that they are superior. This group is offering paradise? Has anyone been there and back? Have they delved into the theology of this and learned that in their teachings in the end Jesus will return? The same Jesus who said love one another as I love you, not murder anyone who disagrees with you. Do they know that Abraham is the father of their religion as well as Christianity and Judaism? So Christians and Jews are their brothers. Do they know the ten commandments and thou shalt not kill applies to them too? And do they have any inkling that all this is manipulation from oil business worldwide? They are creating hell in the belief they will be rewarded with paradise. If they had seen passed the marketing skills of their recruiters, they would recognize that they are being used by those truly seeking worldly gain and oppression.
21
Part 1 of 2
In the 1990s, I became well acquainted with an Egyptian Muslim whom I will call “Akmed” (not his real name). Akmed ran a Manhattan Deli near my office. Once, he said it was not fair that the United States supported Israel. I said the real question we should ask ourselves is: “How did the Jewish people survive the Babylonian Exile, when there was NO United States to help them?” Akmed’s tone became friendlier as he said: “Bob, you know why I like you? --Because you know about Babylon!” I think the stereotype that many people have of Americans is that we only know 2 subjects –Baseball and Basketball! When you show that you know something about History, it dispels the stereotype.
Regarding your reference to finding common ground between Islam and Christianity:
On another occasion, we were discussing Jesus Christ as He is portrayed in Islam. Akmed said as a Muslim, he also believes in the Second Coming of Christ. I said “Wait, a few minutes ago, you told me that Jesus was just another Prophet. If Jesus was just another Prophet, then how could He return to rule the world”? Akmed replied: “Because God has given him the power”. (I normally would not get into such a conversation with a stranger, but we had known each other about 5 years.) I asked: “What about the Prophet Mohammed? Does Mohammed come back?” He said: “No, only Jesus”. One of his coworkers said: “Yes, we believe in 2nd Coming of Christ—it says in Koran”.
In the 1990s, I became well acquainted with an Egyptian Muslim whom I will call “Akmed” (not his real name). Akmed ran a Manhattan Deli near my office. Once, he said it was not fair that the United States supported Israel. I said the real question we should ask ourselves is: “How did the Jewish people survive the Babylonian Exile, when there was NO United States to help them?” Akmed’s tone became friendlier as he said: “Bob, you know why I like you? --Because you know about Babylon!” I think the stereotype that many people have of Americans is that we only know 2 subjects –Baseball and Basketball! When you show that you know something about History, it dispels the stereotype.
Regarding your reference to finding common ground between Islam and Christianity:
On another occasion, we were discussing Jesus Christ as He is portrayed in Islam. Akmed said as a Muslim, he also believes in the Second Coming of Christ. I said “Wait, a few minutes ago, you told me that Jesus was just another Prophet. If Jesus was just another Prophet, then how could He return to rule the world”? Akmed replied: “Because God has given him the power”. (I normally would not get into such a conversation with a stranger, but we had known each other about 5 years.) I asked: “What about the Prophet Mohammed? Does Mohammed come back?” He said: “No, only Jesus”. One of his coworkers said: “Yes, we believe in 2nd Coming of Christ—it says in Koran”.
8
U.S. citizens have the right to go wherever they want in the world, for whatever reason they deem necessary, and it doesn't seem proper to deny them that absolute freedom unless there is a specific law criminalizing for intent. However, we shouldn't wish these folks who go abroad to fight our interests to return. They might come back to kill or maim loyal, innocent U. S. citizens whom it is the duty of the U. S. government to protect. Thus there is good reason to deny their return by permanently revoking their U. S. citizenship status when ever their disloyal behavior is officially detected.
61
Youth and teenage times are challenging. The yougsters are heady with adventure or are falling through the cracks. It does not take much to buguile them. The first institution which opens this crack are the news outlet who are aggressively targeting a particular community. Remember this age is when you do not listen to your parents but seek advice of strangers and get marginalized easily by one sided stories offered in the news. It is really a need for the community to assist these young people and to engage them in constructive acitivities to avoid the nefarious channels. For parents it has to start much earlier.
As for those who are in the mid-crisis of their lives and want to join ISIS like organizations - there is no solution. I think that would require a huge political will from all, which is difficult to come by in this age.
As for those who are in the mid-crisis of their lives and want to join ISIS like organizations - there is no solution. I think that would require a huge political will from all, which is difficult to come by in this age.
4
Daesh is the Slender Man and these adolescents and young adults who are being recruited to join them are the two Wisconsin pre-teens who tried to stab their friend to death as a tribute to him.
Apparently, even innocent, naive youngsters can be stimulated to commit atrocities. Or perhaps *especially* innocent, naive youngsters.
Apparently, even innocent, naive youngsters can be stimulated to commit atrocities. Or perhaps *especially* innocent, naive youngsters.
12
"The Day of the Last Rock Fight" by Joseph Whitehall is one my all-time favorite short stories. Many lessons to be learned and should be required reading and discussion in all English and/or History classes from 8th grade through 12th grade.
Here’s what concerns me about articles like this one … the level of energy and resources devoted to addressing the problem of ISIS recruiting in the US is substantially greater than the actual threat that they pose. We’re talking about numbers in the double-digits. On any given day there are likely more converts to Scientology than to ISIS. And there are more converts and joiners of the Sovereign Citizen Movement, to the so-called “Patriot” Militias, Skin Heads, Neo-Nazi organizations and violent anti-abortionists on a daily basis than to ISIS. Yes, there’s a concern that an ISIS fighter might return to the US and engage in a terrorist act. But what about to all the other acts of violence perpetrated all over the US with alarming frequency against police, Mosques, Synagogues, citizens of the “wrong” religion or color, etc. by right-wing individuals and groups? Are these ISIS recruits that really that threatening in comparison?
Yes, that ISIS recruits our children is a problem, but not a problem that should drive anyone into “hair on fire” panic or overreaction from the citizenry or law enforcement. Domestic threats are real, but I would place a radicalized child lower on the list of imminent threats. There are many scarier and more threatening things out there than them.
Yes, that ISIS recruits our children is a problem, but not a problem that should drive anyone into “hair on fire” panic or overreaction from the citizenry or law enforcement. Domestic threats are real, but I would place a radicalized child lower on the list of imminent threats. There are many scarier and more threatening things out there than them.
149
Big fires start as small ones and while all the various groups you've mentioned do pose a danger, the danger they pose is, as I see it far, far less than a returning Jihadi jacked up on a mission to kill and go to paradise. These people are far more motivated than the others you mention and I for one take them quite seriously and am willing to put them right at the top of being a national security concern. You'll see when one of these days a car bomb goes off or one (or more) of these guys goes on a shooting rampage in a restaurant or a female decides to detonate herself in a crowded shopping mall, say around Christmas time, killing and maiming scores, much like the Boston Marathon bombing. So personally, I feel less afraid of the other unsavory groups you mentioned and much more concerned about these lost souls on a mission.
10
But we have shooting rampages every other day, Regs, and almost none of them are by returning jihadists. FSC brings up a good question of whether we are overreacting. I agree and think it's because we have become inured to our own violence. "The other" is scarier and easier to exploit.
10
I don't foresee a scientologist flying an airplane into a skyscraper. The unique thing about these jihadists is that they hate America and would have no hesitation using weapons of mass destruction in the U.S.
16
This attraction for jihadist recruits is the direct result of our meddling in the Middle East.
The recruiting will become more frequent as the years roll by and we continue use our military to solve what has become an international social phenomenon: hatred of the US foreign policy and our illegal occupations of foreign lands.
The recruiting will become more frequent as the years roll by and we continue use our military to solve what has become an international social phenomenon: hatred of the US foreign policy and our illegal occupations of foreign lands.
58
And the foreign lands that we illegally occupy are?
5
My experiences have led me to think that most people from other countries hate America not just because of our meddlesome foreign policy but also our arrogance. There, too, is envy of our wealth, horror from our exported entertainment, and resentment for our lack of help, not to mention our exploitation of their natural resources. However, when we meet and get to know them we often make friends easily. (I've been around the world four times.) IS seems to me to be little more that a large criminal gang lacking the subtlety of the Mafia. Most of its members must be terribly ignorant of Islam.
8
The frequent claim by Western pundits, academics, and political leaders that members of ISIS, Al Qaeda, and other violent Islamic groups are not true Muslims is a comforting one: it's only a matter of time then before such groups either come to realize their errors or are reproached and repressed by the vast majority of the world's one and a half billion Muslims. Unfortunately, Graeme Wood's article in The Atlantic suggests that it's not true:
"The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse." The entire article is worth reading.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wan...
"The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse." The entire article is worth reading.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wan...
4
There is no end to the excuses for why these people join these terrorist groups. I think they simply lack the smarts to see things for what they are.
23
They are brain washed by religion. It's that simple.
1
Read the 9/11 Commission Report about terrorist groups recruiting young men.
Nothing is surprising regarding this situation.
Nothing is surprising regarding this situation.
11
Let them go fight for ISIS, but don't let them come back.
57
Exactly...make sure it is a one way ticket.
12
Every Sat/Sun in San Diego's Balboa Park, where freedom of speech and religion manifests booths of Christian and Muslim religious fanatics alongside the mimes, jugglers, and musicians, there is a table of Radical hate filled Salafi Muslims from Bangladesh, Eygpt, Pakistan, and Afghanistan spewing hatred and violence towards non-believers. Go and ask them penetrating questions and see the answers you get. What I got is that Jews are evil and behind all the world's problems. Go to the local Salafi mosque on Saranac Road, near San Diego State, funded, originally, by the Saudi's, where several of the 9-11 murderers attended, and where the al Qaeda preacher Al-Awalaki used to be the Imam, and whose lectures fill the minds of young Salafis world over, and meet and talk to the many Somalis that attend, and you will find out why it is NO SURPISE at all that this kid or any kid like him is in ISIS. The problem is in the ideology of radical islam, not in failures of the nanny state at assimilation. Case in point is if you compare the Ethiopian Americans to the Somali Americans and ask why the Ethiopians do so well. Difference is mostly in ideology.
58
"Go to the local Salafi mosque on Saranac Road, near San Diego State, funded, originally, by the Saudi's, where several of the 9-11 murderers attended, and where the al Qaeda preacher Al-Awalaki used to be the Imam, and whose lectures fill the minds of young Salafis world over, and meet and talk to the many Somalis that attend, and you will find out why it is NO SURPISE at all that this kid or any kid like him is in ISIS."
I have several comments to this:
1. Why are allowing immigration from Islamic Countries if they have such a time assimilating?
2. Pull the religious exemption from any Mosque that advocates violence.
"The problem is in the ideology of radical islam, not in failures of the nanny state at assimilation" - well said.
I have several comments to this:
1. Why are allowing immigration from Islamic Countries if they have such a time assimilating?
2. Pull the religious exemption from any Mosque that advocates violence.
"The problem is in the ideology of radical islam, not in failures of the nanny state at assimilation" - well said.
21
"Go to the local Salafi mosque on Saranac Road ..."
How many times have you been to this mosque?
How many times have you been to this mosque?
When I read these stories of young people off to participate in "jihad" under the banner of ISIS, I'm always left scratching my head re the families' "shocked" reaction. Really? Did the families really have no clue that radicalization was happening right under their noses? While delving into the online world of this nuttiness gives folks far more privacy to evade suspicion, so many of the signs that signal a shift toward radicalism are, indeed, outward.
Perhaps it's just the parental blinders we all have, regardless of race, religion, or culture. We look at our children as . . . children (the same little ones we rocked to sleep in our arms when they were just a few months old), even if the ominous outward signs of things gone awry are so clear for all to see . . .
That said, families must do better in this regard.
Perhaps it's just the parental blinders we all have, regardless of race, religion, or culture. We look at our children as . . . children (the same little ones we rocked to sleep in our arms when they were just a few months old), even if the ominous outward signs of things gone awry are so clear for all to see . . .
That said, families must do better in this regard.
15
Ifrah Nur said it best: "killing poor people is not the solution." Whatever roots ISIS might have in the Iraq war or Shi'ite extremism, killing poor Muslims is not an acceptable answer. These American converts have led comfortable lives and now they are killing poor Iraqis and Syrians involved in civil wars that they do not understand. An American teen-ager going to Syria is more Western arrogance and colonialism, not a fight against it.
16
ISIS does not have any roots towards Shiite Extremism (whatever that may be).
Please have your information correct. ISIS are enemies of Shiite and even Sunnis who do not agree with their interpretation of the Religion.
ISIS were trained and indoctrinated by the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia and Jordan. They are being provided the logistics support by Turkey a NATO Ally.
Please have your information correct. ISIS are enemies of Shiite and even Sunnis who do not agree with their interpretation of the Religion.
ISIS were trained and indoctrinated by the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia and Jordan. They are being provided the logistics support by Turkey a NATO Ally.
5
@MC: I would hope you care about the killing of all people, not just poor Muslims. ISIS is an equal opportunity killer, and all people are equally valuable.
1
In one respect this seems like an virtual extension of the street " gangs" found in many countries.... all be it ... the get more press... and they are more vicious, do more damage ... and of course claim legitimacy thru religion. Very troublesome.
10
I think this is more profound than most approaches to the problem. The street gangs and ISIS are more alike than different. About the only difference is that the ISIS group has some claims to worldly and religious legitimacy, but both offer a sense of sacrifice and belonging. And the sense of being part of a group is key. In the USA and probably in Europe too my sense is that most people do not feel they are part of a particular group, in a positive way. Gangs offer that, and so does ISIS.
5
Do not under any circumstances allow this man back into the country! No excuses and no second chances. If stopped on their way, they will make excuses and claim grievances that should mitigate their guilt. I am sick of it. You want to live like ISIS go there and stay there.
32
"He left his parents a long letter saying he could not stay in the United States because his taxes might be used to kill Muslims overseas."
If this fellow had bothered to read a newspaper he would know that the primary victims of ISIL's barbaric reign of terror and systematic religious cleansing are actually...Muslims overseas. Muslim civilians (men, women, and children) who are unwilling to adopt ISIL's extreme and totally perverted version of Islam. Along with civilian members of other religious and ethnic groups, captured and surrendered prisoners of war, abducted journalists, doctors, and aid workers, etc. These are the primary victims of ISIL's "courageous" warriors. That's the true face of the group this fellow desperately wanted to join.
If we want to cut off the flow of new recruits trying to join extremist groups, catching these misguided individuals at the airport before they board a plane isn't going to solve the problem. Ignorance, a lack of education, and a lack of opportunity are the real problems we need to combat.
If this fellow had bothered to read a newspaper he would know that the primary victims of ISIL's barbaric reign of terror and systematic religious cleansing are actually...Muslims overseas. Muslim civilians (men, women, and children) who are unwilling to adopt ISIL's extreme and totally perverted version of Islam. Along with civilian members of other religious and ethnic groups, captured and surrendered prisoners of war, abducted journalists, doctors, and aid workers, etc. These are the primary victims of ISIL's "courageous" warriors. That's the true face of the group this fellow desperately wanted to join.
If we want to cut off the flow of new recruits trying to join extremist groups, catching these misguided individuals at the airport before they board a plane isn't going to solve the problem. Ignorance, a lack of education, and a lack of opportunity are the real problems we need to combat.
27
Uh... didn't Paul Newman star in a movie about radicalized American and English volunteers joining hardcore Zionists in their attempts to (re)conquer by force and violence a homeland in Palestine?
Hmm. I think they were called *Mahals* According to the IDF web/recruitment page, "Mahal is an enlistment track dating back to the 1948 War of Independence specifically designed for foreign volunteers wishing to serve in the IDF and full combat and support roles."
http://www.idfblog.com/about-the-idf/volunteer-programs/
According to wikipedia, both Jewish and non Jewish volunteers from the West joined various Zionist brigades in their then-illegal attempts to evade and subvert lawful British regulations and rule in the area.
Odd how the world turns.
Hmm. I think they were called *Mahals* According to the IDF web/recruitment page, "Mahal is an enlistment track dating back to the 1948 War of Independence specifically designed for foreign volunteers wishing to serve in the IDF and full combat and support roles."
http://www.idfblog.com/about-the-idf/volunteer-programs/
According to wikipedia, both Jewish and non Jewish volunteers from the West joined various Zionist brigades in their then-illegal attempts to evade and subvert lawful British regulations and rule in the area.
Odd how the world turns.
11
Not the same at all.
12
Chip,
How many of the "hardcore Zionists" went out and started cutting off the heads of Christians?
There is really no comparison.
How many of the "hardcore Zionists" went out and started cutting off the heads of Christians?
There is really no comparison.
11
Absolutely missed the mark, sorry mate. No one was murdered raped or robbed.
2
The desire of so many youth throughout the western world to join ISIS shows how easily overwhelming facts can be trumped by appeals to vulnerable emotions and conditions.
In this case, the prominent evidence of racism, sex-trafficking, genocide, child abuse and misogyny perpetrated by IS is glanced over by people's raw emotional and personal desire for purpose and meaning in life.
Take note the next time you try to use factual evidence to convince people to avoid acting irrationally.
In this case, the prominent evidence of racism, sex-trafficking, genocide, child abuse and misogyny perpetrated by IS is glanced over by people's raw emotional and personal desire for purpose and meaning in life.
Take note the next time you try to use factual evidence to convince people to avoid acting irrationally.
15
Isaac, we had a very similar issue in Melbourne Australia two weeks ago. A young lad, about 18 had recently converted to Islam and left Australia to join IS. His posts on the internet suggested he was taking on the wrongs of the world and solving them by joining IS and killing people. He eventually agreed to be a suicide bomber in the middle east. He blew himself up and injured some other people in the attack. Such a tragedy for his family and an ultimately futile exercise. Here was a young man looking to belong, unfortunately he made the worst choice possible, leaving behind a trail of destruction and shattering his family.
12
Am I supposed to feel sorry for this "young lad"? My sympathies are with his victims and their families. Sorry.
1
The problem is not that westerners leave to join Islamic militants. The problem is that they are allowed to return.
Dissuading them from leaving is properly the concern of their families. And it is their families who are most likely to be able to influence them.
Dissuading them from leaving is properly the concern of their families. And it is their families who are most likely to be able to influence them.
103
Agree with you. It should be a one-way ticket, with no return possible.
12
Errol, the world is small, and their Leaving is a
Big problem as well. Count the countries that are dropping like flies because of ISIS. It would be wishful thinking to believe the US is immune.
Big problem as well. Count the countries that are dropping like flies because of ISIS. It would be wishful thinking to believe the US is immune.
1
Most of these young people who join ISIS must be internet or media savvy. And have fallen victim to ISIS propaganda or its
unexplained allure. Most of them are intelligent enough and and have the means to fly close to wherever the ISIS encampment is. I am sure they are not experiencing hand-to-mouth existence like those people in Southeast Asia
who subsist on one to two dollars a day. There are now options (like joining ISIS) that are now available to young people. That they choose to act on it s due to the vulnerability of a young and immature mind.
unexplained allure. Most of them are intelligent enough and and have the means to fly close to wherever the ISIS encampment is. I am sure they are not experiencing hand-to-mouth existence like those people in Southeast Asia
who subsist on one to two dollars a day. There are now options (like joining ISIS) that are now available to young people. That they choose to act on it s due to the vulnerability of a young and immature mind.
4
It is good that Islamic extremists have a place to go.
We shouldn't be stopping them from getting there, but focus on stopping them from returning or leaving, and helping them achieve the martyrdom they desire.
We shouldn't be stopping them from getting there, but focus on stopping them from returning or leaving, and helping them achieve the martyrdom they desire.
17
Let us ridicule and belittle these young men for these stupid acts. Only when the young, aimless Muslim Americans/Europeans understand the sheer stupidly on these moves, can we prevent this from happening. We should aggressively publish what complete failures these young men were, their run ins with the law and their failed social lives-that will want the youth to NOT be like them.
12
This piece holds up as tragedy an incredibly rare human-interest story. The headline could have been "As far as we can tell, Americans almost never leave to fight for ISIS." That story may have been a little different.
So rarely do Americans go, it's odd this story is given so much space. I scratch my head at the price tag for preventing a whopping 50-100 unprepared people from going to fight for ISIS. This number is militarily almost irrelevant.
If we really want to understand how anyone could be enticed by a community (whether healthy or perverse), perhaps we should look at how we value our own (or don't). Perhaps we should actually listen to young people feeling like they don't have many opportunities, instead of calling them ungrateful or stupid. The real human interest piece here is completely lost in the single sentence the author gave it: "Somehow 'you' had become his fellow Americans. 'We' were the jihadists."
You don't need to watch Fox News long to realize that at the very highest official levels, Americans are increasingly divided. If Republican officials were characters in a novel, who would find it a reasonable interpretation that they had a strong sense of community and camraderie with Dems? You know, the other half othe nation? They offered repeatedly to sabotage the economy, literally attempted to derail negotiations with a hostile foreign power, and swore to oppose anything the Democratic president did. Why do we still act baffled over signs of disunity?
So rarely do Americans go, it's odd this story is given so much space. I scratch my head at the price tag for preventing a whopping 50-100 unprepared people from going to fight for ISIS. This number is militarily almost irrelevant.
If we really want to understand how anyone could be enticed by a community (whether healthy or perverse), perhaps we should look at how we value our own (or don't). Perhaps we should actually listen to young people feeling like they don't have many opportunities, instead of calling them ungrateful or stupid. The real human interest piece here is completely lost in the single sentence the author gave it: "Somehow 'you' had become his fellow Americans. 'We' were the jihadists."
You don't need to watch Fox News long to realize that at the very highest official levels, Americans are increasingly divided. If Republican officials were characters in a novel, who would find it a reasonable interpretation that they had a strong sense of community and camraderie with Dems? You know, the other half othe nation? They offered repeatedly to sabotage the economy, literally attempted to derail negotiations with a hostile foreign power, and swore to oppose anything the Democratic president did. Why do we still act baffled over signs of disunity?
9
At some point the rational world and people will revolt at the extremism created with the muslim community. It has to. France, Yemen, US, Netherlands, Germany, Iran, Iraq and so forth...this is just so radical it is beyond comprehension that human beings can be so crazy transfixed on religion and killing one another for the sake of Allah. It is crazy...just crazy. For sure brought about because of inability to integrate in any meaningful way except to get behind an insane cause. One can see that eventually the world will implode with atomic bombs that seek to destroy the world. That day has been foretold.
7
I had intended to write that there must be something terribly primitive, murderous and uncivilized about the morality of Islam or the way its holy scriptures are interpreted by Muslim scholars and mullahs for these American and Europeans to be obliged to leave their homes and travel so far and at great expense so they they can kill those who hold different religious beliefs. The more I reflected upon their behavior, however, the more I saw how much we in the West have shared such values and behaved similarly at times. Of course the obvious example is the Crusades Christendom launched against Islam in the most unholy of lands almost 1000 years ago and carried on intermittently for about 200 years by zealous believers against Muslims and Jews with great brutality and bloodshed. I shudder to think how many millions have died since the Crusades at the hands of the Biblically inspired.
More recently zealous believers in democracy, freedom and capitalism launched bloody crusades against believers in communism, and most recently against unbelievers in Western secularism and modernity. How many Americans died and were maimed in these ideological crusades during the last 50 years? How many of our ideological enemies? How many innocent civilians? Let us hope, and those who can, pray, that laying down one's life for democracy and freedom in Vietnam and Iraq will be judged more favorably by history than those Christian Crusaders who gave their own and took others lives for their God.
More recently zealous believers in democracy, freedom and capitalism launched bloody crusades against believers in communism, and most recently against unbelievers in Western secularism and modernity. How many Americans died and were maimed in these ideological crusades during the last 50 years? How many of our ideological enemies? How many innocent civilians? Let us hope, and those who can, pray, that laying down one's life for democracy and freedom in Vietnam and Iraq will be judged more favorably by history than those Christian Crusaders who gave their own and took others lives for their God.
7
Look at the history of Islam: its spread, starting in the 7th century - several centuries before the Christian Crusades - was essentially an uninterrupted chain of conquests brutalizing various local populations. Today's ISIS recruits confidently draw on this defining militant tradition ...
15
The Crusades were a response to the Muslims killing of Christian pilgrims going to Jerusalem and Bethlehem. The Muslims had control for 100s of years and no one cared before that.
1
You do realise that the Crusades were a response to four centuries of Islamic conquest and suppression of predominantly Christian areas?
4
It appears that we are talking about a very, very small number of people here.
How does this compare with the number shot and killed within the US for other reasons, ranging from drug-related crimes to domestic violence??
How does this compare with the number shot and killed within the US for other reasons, ranging from drug-related crimes to domestic violence??
11
If Mr. Yusef goes on to kill innocent people the blood will be on the hands of Judge Davis. What idiocy allowing him to go to a halfway house.
7
"He is a rare example."
" Mr. Nur had become one of a small number of Americans enticed by the apocalyptic religious promise of the self-described Islamic State."
I think the words, 'rare example' and 'small' should be considered carefully in this article. When we have over a hundred militias here in the United States, many wanting to do armed battle with the U.S. government and armed to the teeth with many having military training, that is cause for greater concern.
It's not to say that would-be jihadists shouldn't be monitored. Mr. Nur should be on every watch list if he returns from his journey in Syria and Iraq. There should be government programs like the one cited in Minneapolis to dissuade kids from joining such groups.
But putting the entire situation into perspective, in a country of over 300m people, there is just a relative handful subscribing to these death cults like ISIS. Also, with relatively 'small' numbers out of the thousands of Muslims in Minneapolis ever consider wanting to become jihadists, let's not try to do what so many in our country tend to do when reading one or two articles that unjustifiably brands people as 'The Other' just because they happen to be Muslims
" Mr. Nur had become one of a small number of Americans enticed by the apocalyptic religious promise of the self-described Islamic State."
I think the words, 'rare example' and 'small' should be considered carefully in this article. When we have over a hundred militias here in the United States, many wanting to do armed battle with the U.S. government and armed to the teeth with many having military training, that is cause for greater concern.
It's not to say that would-be jihadists shouldn't be monitored. Mr. Nur should be on every watch list if he returns from his journey in Syria and Iraq. There should be government programs like the one cited in Minneapolis to dissuade kids from joining such groups.
But putting the entire situation into perspective, in a country of over 300m people, there is just a relative handful subscribing to these death cults like ISIS. Also, with relatively 'small' numbers out of the thousands of Muslims in Minneapolis ever consider wanting to become jihadists, let's not try to do what so many in our country tend to do when reading one or two articles that unjustifiably brands people as 'The Other' just because they happen to be Muslims
9
IMO these boys and girls are the same sorts of people who have always fallen into bad behavior of all kinds. Somehow they lack the support systems and supervision that noticed changes they needed help with and they fell into a destructive form of self reliance which many children from such backgrounds do. It is also a passive aggressive way of punishing the people who let them down and projecting their faults on society.
Before joining some foreign criminal gang was an option they fell into gangs, crime and self destructive behaviors at home or in other parts of the country and world where such people have always congregated.
I'm saying there is nothing inscrutable here as seems to be the idea behind the article and the media hype on the topic.
I think the false Islamic dogma being used is tripping up some people in seeing this as something different when it is in fact just a criminal gang using something different from the "we're a family" dogma.
The only thing new about the opportunity to join criminal gangs in the Middle East is that the kid who joins can get a false sense of religiosity & moral rightness out of it. Most won’t know that the ideology behind the gang is false and will believe they are being righteous and doing good things. If they figure it out it will be too late once they have arrived there.
Before joining some foreign criminal gang was an option they fell into gangs, crime and self destructive behaviors at home or in other parts of the country and world where such people have always congregated.
I'm saying there is nothing inscrutable here as seems to be the idea behind the article and the media hype on the topic.
I think the false Islamic dogma being used is tripping up some people in seeing this as something different when it is in fact just a criminal gang using something different from the "we're a family" dogma.
The only thing new about the opportunity to join criminal gangs in the Middle East is that the kid who joins can get a false sense of religiosity & moral rightness out of it. Most won’t know that the ideology behind the gang is false and will believe they are being righteous and doing good things. If they figure it out it will be too late once they have arrived there.
40
We should give our enemies the courtesy of taking them at their word. The jihadists are very clear as to why the engage in jihad. The reason is Islam (or at least their interpretation of it) and the desire to impose their ideology on the heretics and unbelievers. And yet liberals ( of whom I am one) tie themselves in knot in orders to explain away this self-definition. No, it must be American exceptionalism, or French colonialism, or Zionism, or an inexplicable epidemic of mental disease...anything but a coherent, freely adopted worldview. How paternalistic is that? If people want to be martyrs for a revolting cause, why not give them what they want?
16
Humans murder by the billions every year. Isis is only operating within the sphere of normal human behavior. Get over it everybody.
billions, as in 10^9?
4
You're sick... what if they beheaded a loved one of yours?
5
"Humans murder by the billions every year."
As of 2013, there were about seven billion people in the world, so you might want to consult a more authoritative source than your own imagination.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
As of 2013, there were about seven billion people in the world, so you might want to consult a more authoritative source than your own imagination.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
3
Put them on a plane and cancel their passports. If they want to go and live in the 7th century, let them. All of the people with any education or money have left these countries. They are now living in NYC, London and Toronto. They are not streaming onto planes to go back to these countries and build the institutions necessary to have functioning governments. We think that everyone wants the American dream, who wouldn't want to live here? Now we have our answer.
109
See my comment on the coming war 5 to 10 years hence. Are we better off detaining them here with long detention/brainwashing sessions or fighting them in the Middle East.
DS, there are too many exceptions to the idea that ISIS is only for the poor and destitute...., and that's too bad. It would be oh so simple to try to solve this monster problem called ISIS of "only" that were the case.
i live in minnesota. we should be making this easy for those that want to leave. openly ask for those that want to join and fly them there. revoke their passport and never let them return.
33
In the background hovers US political, social and cultural agendas that have helped to radicalize these particular 29, other Muslims in the US and also some of the Muslim in the "mid east". eastern Africa, Afghanistan, Pakistan. During the first and second Gulf Wars, I thought then and now, if the US did not take a very active role in solving the Palestinian / Israel conflict, all would be for naught. The US is perceive to favor Israel, a white and western culture over the lesser Palestinians. Until that conflict is resolved and the US is perceived to be "neutral", forget about peace in the Mid east. Take a lesson from the US "Civil Rights" movement during the 60's and 70's. It is all there.
2
First, nobody has taken a more active role in trying to solve this problem that the U.S. government -- more than the Israelis or the Palestinians, that's for sure.
Second, to consider Israel to be "white" is to be blind to the realities of a multi-ethnic society. The Hebrews and the Arabs (to use the tribal, rather than the religious, designations) all claim to descended from Abraham (or Ibrahim if you insist).
The conflict between Israelis and Palestinian is fundamentally political, masked by ethnicity and religion. The root cause, however, is not Israeli occupation or even the most repugnant policies of various Israeli governments or Palestinian terrorist organizations but the refusal of the Arab world in general, and the relevant governments and organizations in particular, to accept the legitimacy of Jews (or Hebrews, as noted above) to live in any part of their historic homeland.
As for the Civil Rights movement (no "quotes", I was there), I don't see the analogy.
Second, to consider Israel to be "white" is to be blind to the realities of a multi-ethnic society. The Hebrews and the Arabs (to use the tribal, rather than the religious, designations) all claim to descended from Abraham (or Ibrahim if you insist).
The conflict between Israelis and Palestinian is fundamentally political, masked by ethnicity and religion. The root cause, however, is not Israeli occupation or even the most repugnant policies of various Israeli governments or Palestinian terrorist organizations but the refusal of the Arab world in general, and the relevant governments and organizations in particular, to accept the legitimacy of Jews (or Hebrews, as noted above) to live in any part of their historic homeland.
As for the Civil Rights movement (no "quotes", I was there), I don't see the analogy.
9
Do you think all Jews are white and look alike? Jews are every ethnicity, from all over the world. Open your eyes.
12
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem allied himself with Hitler in 1933. At that time, the entire area was called Palestine. Technically, the Jews who lived there would have been "Palestinians".
3
I would wager that almost every one of these ISIS recruits was - prior to taking an interest in ISIS - somehow psychologically challenged, either with an inherent mental illness (including, but not exclusively sociopathologic disorders); the onset of mental illness; or, beset with serious personal problems (for instance, feeling as "outsiders") that they could not find the means to cope with.
Given the fantastic mental realms that vulnerable individuals are capable of living in, when one of them suddenly finds the appropriate "bait" - like religion, or a "cause" that seems to fill the void (or, in the case of sociopaths, provide an outlet for mayhen), it's easy to see how these things can happen.
All these "nice boy gone bad" stories have a deeper angle that we somehow haven't caught on to. Some people are very good at hiding internal trouble and conflict, until they act out destructively, in one way or another.
Many years hence, people like this are going to be more and more enabled to cause great harm. What happens 20-30 years hence when terrorists can design bioweapons in their basement? This is why we will probably never see an end to the massive surveillance we are more and more subject to.
Given the fantastic mental realms that vulnerable individuals are capable of living in, when one of them suddenly finds the appropriate "bait" - like religion, or a "cause" that seems to fill the void (or, in the case of sociopaths, provide an outlet for mayhen), it's easy to see how these things can happen.
All these "nice boy gone bad" stories have a deeper angle that we somehow haven't caught on to. Some people are very good at hiding internal trouble and conflict, until they act out destructively, in one way or another.
Many years hence, people like this are going to be more and more enabled to cause great harm. What happens 20-30 years hence when terrorists can design bioweapons in their basement? This is why we will probably never see an end to the massive surveillance we are more and more subject to.
8
You are so right, I am always afraid to hear 'tomorrow's' news....
So long as there is testosterone, easily fueled resentments against those with more power, the solace which comes from being part of a tribe which is demonstrating its own power and the simple allure of an adventure to distract from life's typical boring tribulations, there will be Abdi Nurs.
And so long as our response to those individuals is to fear and hate them and, when we get a hold of them, to brutalize them in our own "civilized" way, we will continue to make the situation worse.
And so long as our response to those individuals is to fear and hate them and, when we get a hold of them, to brutalize them in our own "civilized" way, we will continue to make the situation worse.
12
Fine...what's your solution?
7
We shouldn't Brutalize them but perhaps if they try to return we should give them a one way ticket back on a military plain with a parachute. I have zero sympathy for these individuals.
5
Oh yeah, we brutalize them. Cry me a river. Once they leave, burn their passport and let them stay there. Period.
2
Young men have always been attracted to the romantic idea of the glory of war, and always cynically manipulated by those who make war. This is just another iteration of that.
193
No its not. They decide to join a group of violent theocrats who are beheading anyone who disagrees with them. There are no illusions about these people. We need to stop making excuses.
8
This is not war, this is savagery for barbarisms' sake. They don't fight to protect anyone or culture, they are tearing down cultures and viciously beheading people. Throwing people off building. Raping and enslaving women and girls. This is not how soldiers act. This is how barbarians act.
8
@ small business owner--alas, this is indeed how soldiers act, and how they have acted since time immemorial: raping and enslaving women and girls (read the Bible, read Euripides and Homer). Vicious murder and torture (consider Abu Ghraib, consider the tiger cages of Vietnam). We are not a nice species.
2
This is the opportunity for kids without direction to join a really "cool" gang, brag to their friends on social media, and have an adventure. As with all teenagers and others who are immature, the consequences are written off as "that won't happen to me." So while there is a veneer of religious extremism, and this certainly is a dark spot for Islam, for those fragile kids looking for adventure and the opportunists promising to provide one, that's all it is. The way to address the problem is to create an alternative that is equally "fun" and involves a "cause" like, for example, the Peace Corps or even the US Army. They just want to belong!
47
But Muslim extremism isn't 'cool'. It doesn't promise sex and drugs and great music. It doesn't promise an end to physical, economic or emotional suffering. It just promises repression and death. So it attracts desperate losers, who are so pathetic, that they're willing to defer the good stuff to an imaginary afterlife. Unfortunately they kill and immiserate other people, some of whom probably do have a capacity to appreciate and enjoy life.
6
"Join a really 'cool' gang"?? Are you saying it's 'really cool' to cut off the heads of someone? Are you saying it's 'really cool' to burn someone alive?
Sorry, that's not 'really cool'. That's murder. That's really barbaric. That's really atrocious. But it's not 'really cool'.
Sorry, that's not 'really cool'. That's murder. That's really barbaric. That's really atrocious. But it's not 'really cool'.
2
The fervor of those newly converted to a new or fundamentalist religion knows no limits. It does not matter what the religion is; the fervor and process are the same.
14
You don't see too many Jewish or Christian converts be heading people, though. There is something different about Islam, at least the Sunni interpretation of it. You also don't see many Shiite or Ismaili Muslims decapitating other people. It is most a Sunni problem.
12
"The idea, said Mary McKinley, executive director of Heartland Democracy, is to gradually reintegrate Mr. Yusuf into the community, and possibly give him a role in countering the radicalization of young people."
There was a hacker in the 1980s who got caught, but instead of being put on trial and incarcerated, got hired to work at a DoD think tank. He then proceeded to suborn several colleagues and his manager, and they all started hacking, criminally. True believers - as Mr. Yusuf should be presumed to be - should be presumed to be unrepentant. And the rest of us should not be subjected to the possible dangerous results if the "experiment" goes wrong.
Why are we unwilling to just let these people go? They don't want to be here. Let them go, revoke their citizenship, and declare them persona non grata.
There was a hacker in the 1980s who got caught, but instead of being put on trial and incarcerated, got hired to work at a DoD think tank. He then proceeded to suborn several colleagues and his manager, and they all started hacking, criminally. True believers - as Mr. Yusuf should be presumed to be - should be presumed to be unrepentant. And the rest of us should not be subjected to the possible dangerous results if the "experiment" goes wrong.
Why are we unwilling to just let these people go? They don't want to be here. Let them go, revoke their citizenship, and declare them persona non grata.
34
I think the experiment is for the sake of their families, mostly immigrants, who came here for a better life, freer, safer, richer. Obviously, the families have to be involved in their rehabilitation. They need to know - we would all like to know - why they are failing to inculcate positive values in their sons.
1
I don 't understand why so many people are giving excuses for his choice to do what he is doing when he himself states that:
“The Words of Allah, The Quran, that’s what brain washed me”
Why aren't more Muslims brainwashed like him? because very few Muslims read the Koran and make its teachings paramount in their lifestyles. Just as 99% of Roman Catholics have never read/studied the New Testament and don't realize that their lifestyle is NOT Christian, just cultural Christian; 99% of Muslims have never read/studied the Koran in its entirety and don't know that they are NOT Muslims, just cultural Muslim. Abdi Nur is the real Muslim, he is the one putting into practice the teachings of the Koran!
My point: Islam is an evil religion because revealed by an evil angel, and all those who put into practice its teachings have been deceived as they become evildoers! Galatians 1:6-11, 2ndCorinthians 11:3..4,14-15, 1stTimothy 4:1, 2ndTimothy 3:1..12,13.., 2nd Timothy 4:...3,4..
“The Words of Allah, The Quran, that’s what brain washed me”
Why aren't more Muslims brainwashed like him? because very few Muslims read the Koran and make its teachings paramount in their lifestyles. Just as 99% of Roman Catholics have never read/studied the New Testament and don't realize that their lifestyle is NOT Christian, just cultural Christian; 99% of Muslims have never read/studied the Koran in its entirety and don't know that they are NOT Muslims, just cultural Muslim. Abdi Nur is the real Muslim, he is the one putting into practice the teachings of the Koran!
My point: Islam is an evil religion because revealed by an evil angel, and all those who put into practice its teachings have been deceived as they become evildoers! Galatians 1:6-11, 2ndCorinthians 11:3..4,14-15, 1stTimothy 4:1, 2ndTimothy 3:1..12,13.., 2nd Timothy 4:...3,4..
I am not for a rehabilitative mode at all for Americans who seek to join ISIS and are caught doing so, or who actually join and after cutting off a few heads, shooting a few people as they beg for their lives, and gang rape a few women, start to have second thoughts and want to return. If someone totally unconnected to ISIS in an American neighborhood did these deeds they would, depending on where they lived, either be executed or imprisoned for life.
For someone of any age caught seeking to recruit for ISIS, or caught attempting to join ISIS, I believe these people should be imprisoned for life without possibility of parole. The mere idea that they would consider committing such atrocities show they are incurable psychopaths. For anyone who actually joins ISIS, I believe their citizenship should be automatically and permanently revoked, and they should be imprisoned for life if caught trying to return, or if they are sent here by another Western nation in Europe through extradition.
As far as participating in the never ending war in the Mideast, I believe we should have learned our lesson under George W, and stay out of the whole conflict unless our own security is actually and imminently imperiled. The idea of our government that it is somehow good for the nation to remove America's valued social programs, which should be increased, so we can increase our war budget and participate in never ending conflict seem idiotic to me.
For someone of any age caught seeking to recruit for ISIS, or caught attempting to join ISIS, I believe these people should be imprisoned for life without possibility of parole. The mere idea that they would consider committing such atrocities show they are incurable psychopaths. For anyone who actually joins ISIS, I believe their citizenship should be automatically and permanently revoked, and they should be imprisoned for life if caught trying to return, or if they are sent here by another Western nation in Europe through extradition.
As far as participating in the never ending war in the Mideast, I believe we should have learned our lesson under George W, and stay out of the whole conflict unless our own security is actually and imminently imperiled. The idea of our government that it is somehow good for the nation to remove America's valued social programs, which should be increased, so we can increase our war budget and participate in never ending conflict seem idiotic to me.
12
From what I read it would not seem that easy to leave the areas controlled by ISIS and cross the border out of Syria. Particularly not for a woman. One would have to think that a person returning to the U.S. or Europe from the Caliphate was returning with the blessing of ISIS officials after having been given orders to carry out some nefarious mission.
1
I strongly believe the families of these impressionable young men and women are in part responsible for such a dramatic shift in behavior. Families especially close family members living at home with such individuals cannot say they didn't know what was going on and that one day this person suddenly changed ideologies!
19
Many Americans don't know what's going on with their teen-aged kids. When I worked for the Welfare Department in the Bronx in the late 60's, I met many good, hardworking people, whose sons had become gang-bangers. Unfortunately, it's an all too common American story.
31
Can you blame the families of school shooting perpetrators for their apparently normal children going berserk on a shooting rampage?
4
Let them all go to Middle East and reveresed the migration process and it very obvious to anyone there are groups of kids who cannot reconcile being part of our way of life. That is where they belong, Let us stop theorizing what is wrong owhat is right.
16
"Then he started wearing more traditional garb."
So traditional middle Eastern fashion is a tell tale sign of religious extremism?
So traditional middle Eastern fashion is a tell tale sign of religious extremism?
4
@Mopitimop: If you're an American wearing it in Minneapolis, probably.
14
Yes.
@FromBrooklyn
How so?
How so?
Amazing,
Muslims vs muslim violence (Sunnis vs Shiites), with such hatred has been in the making for over millennium. This ongoing sport will continue to attract many muslims both from the US and abroad. This is not in reaction of not having any representation in the political arena. it’s the inability to integrate in Western society. the muslim way of life has deep connection in the Quran which sadly has one too many versus that call for the killing of infidels.
Muslims vs muslim violence (Sunnis vs Shiites), with such hatred has been in the making for over millennium. This ongoing sport will continue to attract many muslims both from the US and abroad. This is not in reaction of not having any representation in the political arena. it’s the inability to integrate in Western society. the muslim way of life has deep connection in the Quran which sadly has one too many versus that call for the killing of infidels.
39
History shows that religion is a fraud for killing and grabbing power and wealth.
1
An article in the Times about a month ago discussed the book The True Believer by Eric Hoffer as a way to understand the who and the why.
I got it from the library and recommend it highly. Amazing that a book published in 1951 would have so much insight into who joins up with fanatics and why.
(Some readers will need to be careful, though, because it applies just as evenly to Christian fanatics, domestic or foreign, as Moslem fanatics.)
I got it from the library and recommend it highly. Amazing that a book published in 1951 would have so much insight into who joins up with fanatics and why.
(Some readers will need to be careful, though, because it applies just as evenly to Christian fanatics, domestic or foreign, as Moslem fanatics.)
52
Joanna
Why do some readers "need to be careful"? Which readers are you referring to?
Why do some readers "need to be careful"? Which readers are you referring to?
4
Theocratic fanatics are all dangerous to humans.
8
Justice and fairness will require that he reap the rewards of the choice he made. Religious fervor has been doing this for thousands of years, and the end is the same.
9
Off the top of my head, wouldn't it be better to not try to stop individuals like Nur from going to Syria? If the "Islamic State" is flooded w/ eager but untrained & untalented recruits w/ no common language, wouldn't this impose a crippling logistical and organizational hardship on it? And once these "recruits" face the drudgery of soldiering & poor food & living conditions, it's likely that their enthusiasm will dissipate and they may come to resent & rebel against their leaders.
19
I don't know , but I suspect that many of the recruits are already very impressionable. Once in Syria, they probably have "handlers" who are familiar with Western languages, Western mores, etc. Also, they probably receive daily "education" sessions which glorify their cause and help them feel as though they belong to something great.
Lenin and, especially, Trotsky was masters at molding the thought processes of those who were already willing. They feed them almost like cancer cells. when you feed cancer cells sugar, they tend to grow rapidly.
It's a huge mistake to regard the leaders as ignorant. They may not understand calculus, but they understand very well how to distort human thought processes.
Lenin and, especially, Trotsky was masters at molding the thought processes of those who were already willing. They feed them almost like cancer cells. when you feed cancer cells sugar, they tend to grow rapidly.
It's a huge mistake to regard the leaders as ignorant. They may not understand calculus, but they understand very well how to distort human thought processes.
14
For personal reasons I have had to reconcile why Muslims who are more ardent adherents of the religion tend to veer toward a militancy, whether in literal terms or figuratively. Anger seems to be a common development with an escalation in adherence, in my experience; the contents of the Koran and the Hadeeth that seem to bubble to the top for the more adherent seem to be the ones revolving around the control of others' freewill, of punishing, or developing a forthright and raw hate toward certain peoples. A dictatorship takes root toward daughters. This, in spite of the voluminously noted words in the Koran that the Muslim deity is oft forgiving. In fact, whether profound or mundane, actions taken by even nominal Muslims begin with reciting that their deity is full of mercy. Every chapter of the Koran begins with these words. And yet, that noble concept seems not to sink in and take root. It has perhaps become like scenery on well-traveled roads, there but not noted.
In my experience, I feel that it is the measurability of adherence to the tenets of Islam that lends to a zeal to be the extreme...Muslims can measure how "good" another Muslim is or isn't: an equation of various variables such as the number of prayers performed, clothes worn, beards kept, which direction to point the feet, Bismillahs uttered, the number of fasts kept and the Koran's chapters memorized...it is policed, judged and weighed by a Muslim's fellow men and women.
In my experience, I feel that it is the measurability of adherence to the tenets of Islam that lends to a zeal to be the extreme...Muslims can measure how "good" another Muslim is or isn't: an equation of various variables such as the number of prayers performed, clothes worn, beards kept, which direction to point the feet, Bismillahs uttered, the number of fasts kept and the Koran's chapters memorized...it is policed, judged and weighed by a Muslim's fellow men and women.
20
Sounds like the Inquisition. I don't think that was a lot of fun either.
3
I teach comparative law at a University in East Asia, including some Islamic law (I rely heavily on "The Spirit of Islamic Law" a purely academic work).
Like Judaism Islam is a legalistic religion. That might be the best way to understand it. Islamic jurisprudence runs like this:
That God exist is not a matter of faith but of certainty. God is the creator, man the creature, God the Sovereign, man the subject. Man's duty is to discern God's law and follow it steadfastly. The source of Islamic law is the Koran. The Koran says to follow Mohammed's example. So Mohammed's biography, habits & sayings are also sources of law.
For 13 years Mohammed preach in Mecca, a polyglot center for worship of 360 idols and accumulated only 200 followers. Mecca then was tolerant, but Mohammed was not. An orphan in a vendetta based society, his safety was compromised when his protecting uncle died. He then moved to Medina where he took on the role of mediator between warring tribes so he and the Muslims were enfranchised.
At Mecca he was powerless, so he preached an inclusive message. At Medina he and his followers engaged in banditry of caravans, the loot attracted followers and membership mushroomed. He escalated from that to extortion, assassination, and eventually genocide. He basically ran Medina like a mafia boss. Coercion worked. In 10 years he had 100,000s of followers and controlled all of the Arabian peninsula.
Isis follows Mohammed's example closely. Its the moderates that do not.
Like Judaism Islam is a legalistic religion. That might be the best way to understand it. Islamic jurisprudence runs like this:
That God exist is not a matter of faith but of certainty. God is the creator, man the creature, God the Sovereign, man the subject. Man's duty is to discern God's law and follow it steadfastly. The source of Islamic law is the Koran. The Koran says to follow Mohammed's example. So Mohammed's biography, habits & sayings are also sources of law.
For 13 years Mohammed preach in Mecca, a polyglot center for worship of 360 idols and accumulated only 200 followers. Mecca then was tolerant, but Mohammed was not. An orphan in a vendetta based society, his safety was compromised when his protecting uncle died. He then moved to Medina where he took on the role of mediator between warring tribes so he and the Muslims were enfranchised.
At Mecca he was powerless, so he preached an inclusive message. At Medina he and his followers engaged in banditry of caravans, the loot attracted followers and membership mushroomed. He escalated from that to extortion, assassination, and eventually genocide. He basically ran Medina like a mafia boss. Coercion worked. In 10 years he had 100,000s of followers and controlled all of the Arabian peninsula.
Isis follows Mohammed's example closely. Its the moderates that do not.
4
There's an implication in this article questioning how anyone from America could even being for a second to dare feel that not everything about this country and their future here could be anything else but desirable or less than perfect.
A future envisioned here entailing a cyber-world reality, steeped in self-center consumerism and materialism where God here is the quest for earthly possessions and nothing else.
It's hard to imagine how a young, idealistic, educated mind would not instinctively be drawn to that commercially idealized dream for one's earhly life like a moth would be drawn to a flame.
A future envisioned here entailing a cyber-world reality, steeped in self-center consumerism and materialism where God here is the quest for earthly possessions and nothing else.
It's hard to imagine how a young, idealistic, educated mind would not instinctively be drawn to that commercially idealized dream for one's earhly life like a moth would be drawn to a flame.
6
Really, will you be leaving soon?
3
You seem to be an eXpert, but I know a lot of kids that are out there doing good work and helping others or working towards their education. Funny, you and he don't seem to know about them.
3
I looked up the "travel guide" online and they only asked for people, not money. Once you get to Syria, everything will be provided.
Those expensive black market munitions are funded by the Iranian government and the Gulf State billionaires, both of whom are totally reliant on oil money. Now the same money is funding Iranian nuclear weapons, soon to be followed by a Saudi A-Bomb.
Our only effective defense is to drive the price of oil back down to $10 per barrel, enough to support the people but not enough to fund terrorism. This can be done by repealing the prohibition of exporting American oil and reasonable loosening of controls on domestic drilling.
There will be some environmental damage, but the result of nuclear weapons smuggled into American cities by suicide bombers will be 100 times worse and longer lasting.
The choice is ours.
Those expensive black market munitions are funded by the Iranian government and the Gulf State billionaires, both of whom are totally reliant on oil money. Now the same money is funding Iranian nuclear weapons, soon to be followed by a Saudi A-Bomb.
Our only effective defense is to drive the price of oil back down to $10 per barrel, enough to support the people but not enough to fund terrorism. This can be done by repealing the prohibition of exporting American oil and reasonable loosening of controls on domestic drilling.
There will be some environmental damage, but the result of nuclear weapons smuggled into American cities by suicide bombers will be 100 times worse and longer lasting.
The choice is ours.
13
The main thing that ISIS is doing in Iraq is killing every Shia Muslim they can find. The Iranians are Shia; they would not fund this. Just because the Iranians and ISIS are both crazy in a muddled Islamic way, doesn't mean they are on the same side.
64
So why is Iran fighting ISIS?
4
DS...because they are a different sect of muslim and they fear the caliphate vision more than they fear us.
3
With the top 1% controlling more wealth than the bottom 40% to 90% (whatever the current statistic is today), and a bunch of largely older, intransigent professional politicians trying proudly and openly to block every possible change that might help even out the playing field -- in a world that is changing at a far greater velocity than ever before -- you have the primordial ooze needed for a revolution of sorts.
Add to that those same intransigent politicians shrieking that armaments should be our strategy of first choice when dealing with issues in the middle east and you stir the pot even more.
We tend to define these traveling jihadists as "terrorists", but I'd bet money that they look at themselves as "revolutionaries". In the process, we forget that the American Revolution was largely about economics -- remember "taxation without representation"?
And, please, don't accuse me of believing that middle eastern jihadists represent anything close to our own American Revolution. I don't believe that. But I do believe that we need to learn to see, and understand, points-of-view other than our own -- especially the points-of-view of those whose families our bombs are landing on. I'm pretty certain if we were in their position we would see something other than Republican "exceptionalism", too.
As a people and a country, we need to work in and with a changing world instead of continually trying to stop it from changing.
Add to that those same intransigent politicians shrieking that armaments should be our strategy of first choice when dealing with issues in the middle east and you stir the pot even more.
We tend to define these traveling jihadists as "terrorists", but I'd bet money that they look at themselves as "revolutionaries". In the process, we forget that the American Revolution was largely about economics -- remember "taxation without representation"?
And, please, don't accuse me of believing that middle eastern jihadists represent anything close to our own American Revolution. I don't believe that. But I do believe that we need to learn to see, and understand, points-of-view other than our own -- especially the points-of-view of those whose families our bombs are landing on. I'm pretty certain if we were in their position we would see something other than Republican "exceptionalism", too.
As a people and a country, we need to work in and with a changing world instead of continually trying to stop it from changing.
245
Go ahead, side with radicalized muslims. You're clearly wrong, was it America that started this conflict? No. I don't understand why you tell us we should consider the side of isis when we already have, and we've already established that they're a bunch of raving, racist lunatics.
7
Absolutely correct. We are coming to the end of a 500 year period in western civilization where white supremacy capitalism has relied on force and violence to profit on the suffering of others. The threshold bringing this era to an end was the development and usage of nuclear weapons at the end of the second world war. Since then, the world wide networks have greatly distributed this knowledge to virtually anyone with a modicum of technological wherewithal. The cat is out of the bag. We as a species now have to learn to live with each other or our species will commit a kind of genocidal suicide rendering the species extinct.
6
You seriously need to brush up on American Foreign Policy 101 - Jeez, pathetic. It's really tragic that so many people don't understand the violence the US has supported since the 1950s to try to re-make the world in its own image and for the benefit of US corporations and geopolitical interests.
3
The deep root of the problem is that too many people feel that they are not represented in the political system in the USA and many feel hopeless about possible prospects of being represented. The actual difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is next to nothing. That is why while most simply ignore the elections for now, other few apparently choose to take arms. It is a very dangerous pattern.
6
Osama Bin Laden was a child of great wealth and privilege. It’s a dangerous mistake to believe that terrorists need be the products of hopelessness and lack of privilege.
21
Just how would you have them be more represented? By letting them impose Sharia law on us? why do they come here in the first place if it they don't like our culture? if they want to go and get chopped up in some 5th century war, let them go.
11
Please, remember that Osama was glorified by the US in his fight against USSR forces originally, and then after the issue with USSR was over he was simply dropped. As result, Osama's glitch was mostly due to the fact that he felt betrayed and used by the US and he most likely craved a revenge of some sort for it. He sure was far from hopeless ...
2
As I read this, I couldn't help thinking about the language of my religious family who lives mostly in Texas, and many of those in the military - substitute their beliefs and faith in their mythological deity, and all the delusions that go with it, and it's no different at all. I'm afraid America will fail hugely in efforts to combat religious extremism, since not-so-deep down, we actually encourage it and don't want to hear that we are a large part of the problem.
250
Well, not rain on your parade but there must be some difference as the fundamentalist Christians in the deep south, who despite using language similar to fundamentalist Muslims (go figure monotheist talk alike) are not carrying out the brutal attacks akin to those in ISIS. So I'm sorry but I disagree that the desire to join ISIS, at this point well known butchers and slavers, has something to do with political apathy, the existence of fundamentalist Christians or the failure of first world western states like the US to be inclusive enough.
19
Yeah, but THOSE fundamentalists don't have to question their identity. Or wonder why God has forsaken their lands.
4
So the US military is essentially the same as ISIS? Wow. Talk about having our soldiers' backs. Why on earth does anyone believe conservatives when they characterize liberals as disloyal or unpatriotic?
6
Hosni Mubarak, deposed dictator of Egypt was correct when he said, in 2002,
"If you invade Iraq, you will create 10,000 bin Laden's".
And we did.
"If you invade Iraq, you will create 10,000 bin Laden's".
And we did.
356
I can't imagine I agree with Mubarak about much, but I do with this.
I guess it was more important for Dick Cheney's military industrialist friends to make a few extra billion than for the U.S. to contribute to the stability of the Middle East.
I guess it was more important for Dick Cheney's military industrialist friends to make a few extra billion than for the U.S. to contribute to the stability of the Middle East.
198
@Craig
Bush and Cheney created the 10,000 Bin Ladens. You and I, no. I strongly believe we have to separate the people from their government, even when we vote them in.
Bush and Cheney created the 10,000 Bin Ladens. You and I, no. I strongly believe we have to separate the people from their government, even when we vote them in.
15
And we keep reading the outrageous rants of that archetypal Chickhawk, Cheney, a man who belongs behind bars.
17
It takes a certain type of person to want to be a part of a group that burns people alive and cuts off heads with a butcher knife. Thankfully, it is only a few who do. I realize the over simplification of this, but I think groups like ISIS and Al Queda are a means for misfits and those with serious personality disorders to crawl out from under their rocks. In other situations, these individuals would most likely turn to crime and violence sooner or later. I have a very hard time buying all "shock" and disbelief expressed by family and friends of these recruits. They obviously did not know them well.
135
For me the worst is to blow up mosques in Sanaa and kill over 130 innocent people.
2
Bacteria kills more Muslims. A jihad on bacteria!
4
You “have a very hard time buying all ‘shock’ and disbelief expresses by family and friends of these recruits"(and believe that )" They obviously do not them well. “
I do believe it,because EVERY parent I know believes “MY child would never _____”, until his or her child ends up in re-hab, etc; their children would never get mixed up in any of these things.They are good parents. It is the children who are the products of bad parenting who become involved in drugs,become child molesters, rapists,etc.
I don’t believe for a moment that my Uncle, the Judge,had a clue that his son would end up dealing drugs out of his college dorm room and wind up in Federal prison.Did my aunt and uncle know their child less well than you know your children.Your belief that YOU would know gives you a sense of false security. “It could never happen to ME.”
A college classmate wound up in prison for molesting girls at the school where he was a school psychologist.
I know more than a few M.Ds.who have raped or otherwise molested their patients.Only one has gone to prison.One committed suicide. Would you expect the Chief of a Department at a major teaching hospital in Manhattan to be a rapist? Do you believe his parents knew they were raising a rapist?
I do believe it,because EVERY parent I know believes “MY child would never _____”, until his or her child ends up in re-hab, etc; their children would never get mixed up in any of these things.They are good parents. It is the children who are the products of bad parenting who become involved in drugs,become child molesters, rapists,etc.
I don’t believe for a moment that my Uncle, the Judge,had a clue that his son would end up dealing drugs out of his college dorm room and wind up in Federal prison.Did my aunt and uncle know their child less well than you know your children.Your belief that YOU would know gives you a sense of false security. “It could never happen to ME.”
A college classmate wound up in prison for molesting girls at the school where he was a school psychologist.
I know more than a few M.Ds.who have raped or otherwise molested their patients.Only one has gone to prison.One committed suicide. Would you expect the Chief of a Department at a major teaching hospital in Manhattan to be a rapist? Do you believe his parents knew they were raising a rapist?
8
So the US is no different from European countries where the same rapid conversions happened. This is frightening. So why does it happen ?
A century of French, British, Israeli colonialism (after 1917), of Arab incompetence to take the democratic aspirations of their own people into consideration, three decades of direct Western intervention in Afghanistan and the Iraq, the revenge talk of Bush after 9-11 and the distrust of Muslims by Americans where large pans are convinced that Saddam Hussein attacked the Twin Towers:
in all of this might there be some reasons for desoriented youngsters to radicalise, in a mislead search of ideals ? In particular when they feel disenfranchised, when they feel that the American ideals are for the others only?
A century of French, British, Israeli colonialism (after 1917), of Arab incompetence to take the democratic aspirations of their own people into consideration, three decades of direct Western intervention in Afghanistan and the Iraq, the revenge talk of Bush after 9-11 and the distrust of Muslims by Americans where large pans are convinced that Saddam Hussein attacked the Twin Towers:
in all of this might there be some reasons for desoriented youngsters to radicalise, in a mislead search of ideals ? In particular when they feel disenfranchised, when they feel that the American ideals are for the others only?
7
This is so much the sociopath's lament of "I'm the real victim here", when clearly that is not the case. The person blowing things up, shooting rooms full of people, and whacking off heads does not elicit sympathy, with good reason.
14
You left out the five centuries of Ottoman imperialism over the Arabs, or does that not count since it's not Western? In honor societies, which is what Arab societies still are, imagine the shame inherent in (1) having at one point been e top dog, (2) losing that pre-eminence and being overtaken civilizationally by the infidels and (3) having the Jews, precisely those people most despised in your scriptures and ritually humiliated when you were in charge, re-establishing themselves in their historic homeland and creating a vibrant, modern society that leaves yours in the shade. Actually, there is nothing yo imagine, we see the fruits of that shame all around us.
37
Sorry to pick nits here, but in spite of the interesting rhetorical questions in your post, there are more than a few things conflated or factually inaccurate.
For example, these problems are rampant in European countries that were not major, or recent, colonial powers in the Arab or Muslim world, such as Norway, Sweden, and Denmark.
For another, whether one agrees with your view or not about the effects of colonialism, and whose, on conversion to Islam -- it's a questionable proposition -- "israeli colonialism" cannot be said to have begun before the founding of the State of Israel, some decades "after 1917", before which the term "Palestinian" was understood to mean "Jewish" and the people now called "the Palestinians" were known to themselves and others simply as "Arabs".
For example, these problems are rampant in European countries that were not major, or recent, colonial powers in the Arab or Muslim world, such as Norway, Sweden, and Denmark.
For another, whether one agrees with your view or not about the effects of colonialism, and whose, on conversion to Islam -- it's a questionable proposition -- "israeli colonialism" cannot be said to have begun before the founding of the State of Israel, some decades "after 1917", before which the term "Palestinian" was understood to mean "Jewish" and the people now called "the Palestinians" were known to themselves and others simply as "Arabs".
9
How is it that the United States Government has the capability of accessing twitter and other social media posts of potential Jihadists & “Hijrah to the Islamic State”,but can not block access to this “how to “guide for terrorists in training?Or are they leaving it up,the hopes that they can track potential terrorists?
13
I think they are leaving the website up to do just what you think.
4
How does the fact that you can read your local newspaper convince you that you could prevent everyone else--no exceptions--from reading that newspaper?
The latter. We thought this through right after 9-11 and decided monitoring was better than playing whack-a-mole.
3
The main thing the rest of us can do is what America has traditionally done so successfully in contrast to some European nations - be welcoming and to treat Muslim US citizens as we would any other. Although we may lose a few, we must do all we can to ensure that none of our citizens feels separate from the rest of us or create conditions in which alienation can flourish.
53
I promise you that in Minneapolis the Somali community is accepted and fairly well integrated given their relatively recent arrival. This trend cannot be avoided by "acceptance". Something about this young man's "reintroduction" to Islam changed him from an aspiring student to a jihadi but it wasn't lack of opportunity or integration in minnesota or the US.
133
'...be welcoming and to treat Muslim US citizens as we would any other...'
Because that has worked out so well so far?
The US and Europe has given tens of thousands of Muslim immigrants refugee status, which means they qualify for years of taxpayer subsidies, and the end result has been resentment, a sense of entitlement, brutal murders of innocent people, and terrorist acts.
Why should any civilized country continue repeating the same mistake?
Obviously, it is good for the immigrants, else they would not keep coming, but how it is anything but a huge negative for the host countries?
Because that has worked out so well so far?
The US and Europe has given tens of thousands of Muslim immigrants refugee status, which means they qualify for years of taxpayer subsidies, and the end result has been resentment, a sense of entitlement, brutal murders of innocent people, and terrorist acts.
Why should any civilized country continue repeating the same mistake?
Obviously, it is good for the immigrants, else they would not keep coming, but how it is anything but a huge negative for the host countries?
12
I'm a Minnesota native and have wondered at the cases of the Hmong and Somalian communities in our states. The Hmong generally seem to have retained much of their culture even as they have assimilated into U.S. culture while the Somalians generally seem to hold themselves apart, about as unassimilated as possible. Every time there is news of a young Somalian American from Minnesota fighting against the U.S., I wonder if the community-wide refusal to adapt cuts off another avenue through which they might have found another way.
11
Part of me wants to let these people go to Syria. Confiscate their passports on the way out and revoke their citizenship.
198
Me too. I just wonder whether that's feasible.
2
I do hope the other part of you think or want better for these people. Also why not give them a chance if they do change their mind. Perhaps they can influence other kids not to go.
Your way is a sure way that their no return is a one way street for their act of violence.
Your way is a sure way that their no return is a one way street for their act of violence.
2
All of me wants to.
What a great article. I'm just going to leave this here for any potential GOP voters who don't appreciate their role in all this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NktsxucDvNI
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And I'm not going to follow your link without a description ...
Stop, just stop , the grisly 'making money at all costs', NYTimes. Your editors used to be better than to give fame to traitors and killers.
Be ashamed, very ashamed.