I am in the majority when saying folks had better let go of the past and start dealing with the present because this is the face of chaos. There will be no good consequences for holding police to a higher standard than a thug. The whole situation is beginning to remind me of South Africa where apartied era mercenaries are leaving the country and fighting for the highest bidder to free black victims in Nigeria from Boko Haram. For that they cannot return without facing prosecution.
We can go back and forth about what happened in any particular case, forever. The fact is: we have a huge problem on our hands. Young black men commit a lot of crimes. That's due to poverty and hopelessness, not race. Police are asked to pursue criminals and are often overly zealous. It's also been shown that the police fear black kids and tend not to think of them as children, even when they're very young, but as potential threats. Maybe one solution would be "wounding." Why are black kids never wounded, but always killed?
1
It's always fascinating to see how much people know about a place they don't know anything about.
Like for instance...did y'all know that lately, here in Philly, we've a higher per capita homicide rate than Chicago? Oh, the article didn't mention that?
http://guncrisis.org/2014/07/09/philadelphia-stays-ahead-of-chicagos-hom...
Who do you think the victims tend to be?
Like for instance...did y'all know that lately, here in Philly, we've a higher per capita homicide rate than Chicago? Oh, the article didn't mention that?
http://guncrisis.org/2014/07/09/philadelphia-stays-ahead-of-chicagos-hom...
Who do you think the victims tend to be?
3
Timothy Williams:
Stop already with the "Michael Brown, an UNARMED African-American teenager in Ferguson, Mo."!!! Read the just-released DOJ report. In case you find it too difficult to locate, here's the salient summary:
Officer "Wilson’s account is corroborated by physical evidence and...his perception of a threat posed by Brown is corroborated by other eyewitnesses, to include aspects of the testimony of Witness 101 [that's Dorian Johnson, Michael Brown's 'accomplice' in the convenience store robbery], there is no credible evidence that Wilson willfully shot Brown as he was attempting to surrender or was otherwise not posing a threat."
Michael Brown assaulted Officer Wilson at the SUV, attempted to gain control of Wilson’s gun, and never surrendered (i.e.-"hands up, don't shoot" is a lie).
And please remember that the "teenager" was a 6'4"/285lb giant.
Stop already with the "Michael Brown, an UNARMED African-American teenager in Ferguson, Mo."!!! Read the just-released DOJ report. In case you find it too difficult to locate, here's the salient summary:
Officer "Wilson’s account is corroborated by physical evidence and...his perception of a threat posed by Brown is corroborated by other eyewitnesses, to include aspects of the testimony of Witness 101 [that's Dorian Johnson, Michael Brown's 'accomplice' in the convenience store robbery], there is no credible evidence that Wilson willfully shot Brown as he was attempting to surrender or was otherwise not posing a threat."
Michael Brown assaulted Officer Wilson at the SUV, attempted to gain control of Wilson’s gun, and never surrendered (i.e.-"hands up, don't shoot" is a lie).
And please remember that the "teenager" was a 6'4"/285lb giant.
14
I think people would have much less of a reaction to this death if A) The police were not lying about what really happened. B) All video footage of the incident was made public.
5
white supremacy created this mess by purposely and determinately creating Black and other poor people communities while whites glorify how clan, efficient, and worthy their exclusive communities are. white run governments all during slavery/Jim Crow eras have made sure that white neighborhoods/communities get rewarded through stipends, grants, etc. just for being white. they also get their communities taken care of as the city cleans their streets, picks up garbage, fixes everything in these so-called glorious communities before they break down, and all at the expense of tax payer money collected from everybody regardless of who they are and where they live. kids in these white schools are not allowed to fail as the parents/relative challenge teachers to change grade so that their kids can attend the more so-called prestigious colleges, where upon graduation many are PLACED in upper management positions or better they are accepted into grad schools on stipends whereby they become lab assistants and future teachers and so called leaders.
Black kids struggle in schools teachers tell them lies about their history, culture and daily put them down-it's a wonder that any Black children graduate, and then there is that super struggle to get into college (routine for white people) as we are told there are no handouts, yet all white communities get is govt. handouts of everybody's money.
Black kids struggle in schools teachers tell them lies about their history, culture and daily put them down-it's a wonder that any Black children graduate, and then there is that super struggle to get into college (routine for white people) as we are told there are no handouts, yet all white communities get is govt. handouts of everybody's money.
10
Kamau Thabiti@ Yes.... it is relative to "policing". Great points.
1
I realize that your are being facetious in asserting that teachers conspire to change white kids grades so they graduate with honors while lying to black kids grades about history and culture. However, some readers will taken your comments about poverty seriously. While African Americans are disproportionately poor, there are nearly three times as many poor whites than poor blacks. The most recent Census Bureau poverty report shows that in 2013 there were 29.9 million white Americans living below poverty level and 11 million black Americans living below poverty level. There also were 1.8 million Asian Americans living below poverty level. Source: Table 3: People in Poverty by Selected Characteristics: 2012 and 2013, Income and Poverty in the United States: 2013.
http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2014/demo/...
http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2014/demo/...
2
Amen again
Isn't this a pretty telling statement from the article? "The authorities say Mr. Tate-Brown had been running from officers to get to a gun concealed inside his car when an officer shot him."
If the gun were concealed inside the car, how on earth could officers have known that's why he was running? Did they know there was a gun in the car? Do they have ESP? Did they call Psychic Hotline to determine the existence of the concealed gun in the car?
This gives police officers the right to shoot anybody at any time. "I saw the businessman on Wall Street reach into his pocket. He could only have been doing that in order to get at the concealed weapon in his pocket, so of course I shot him."
If the gun were concealed inside the car, how on earth could officers have known that's why he was running? Did they know there was a gun in the car? Do they have ESP? Did they call Psychic Hotline to determine the existence of the concealed gun in the car?
This gives police officers the right to shoot anybody at any time. "I saw the businessman on Wall Street reach into his pocket. He could only have been doing that in order to get at the concealed weapon in his pocket, so of course I shot him."
15
According to the district attorney, three surveillance tapes, four witnesses, ballistics evidence and DNA results all back up the accounts of the two officers. The officers pulled Tate-Brown over on Frankford because he was driving ar night with just his parking lights on. (Cops think people driving at night with their headlights off are probably drunk.) After one cop saw the handgun jammed between the console and driver’s seat, they ordered him out of the car. He resisted arrest for several minutes and broke free of the police three times. He think lunged into this car’s open passenger’s side door. The police officer who shot he said he was reaching for the gun. Tate-Brown’s family claim the police planted the gun, but DNA tests showed Tate-Brown had handled the gun, a fully-loaded semi-automatic that had been reported stolen.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150320_D_A__clears_cops_in_fatal_sho...
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150320_D_A__clears_cops_in_fatal_sho...
5
After the police pulled Tate-Brown over, they saw the handgun jammed between the console and the driver's seat. That's why they order him out of the car. He resisted arrest, struggling with the police for several minutes before breaking away. The cop who shot him said he lunged through the open passenger-side door and reached for the gun. The DA says three separate video back up the cops.
3
many people are perfectly happy with the protection racket because they fear the criminal bogeyman more than they fear the code of silence, and more than they understand and fear the slippery slope in the criminal justice system that wants to punish everyone and send them to prison even if the DAs never play by the rules.
police are putting themselves in danger by failing to recognize and acknowledge that they are the gateway to an extremely dysfunctional and expensive system.
police are putting themselves in danger by failing to recognize and acknowledge that they are the gateway to an extremely dysfunctional and expensive system.
2
"He has also helped develop a course with the National Constitution Center to train recruits on how to act as officers in a complex democratic society,"
Here lies again the question, whether nurture vs. nature (i.e. psychological selection of recruits) can be successful. And this question, whether recruits should simply be administered the Implicit Association Test (IAT) at hiring, was posed back in a 2005 Washington Post article:
"Personality tests that lack the rigor of the Implicit Association Test have been widely used by companies in employee training and even hiring. [...] some proponents tell her it would be unethical not to use the test to screen officials who make life-and-death decisions about others."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27067-2005Jan21.html
Here lies again the question, whether nurture vs. nature (i.e. psychological selection of recruits) can be successful. And this question, whether recruits should simply be administered the Implicit Association Test (IAT) at hiring, was posed back in a 2005 Washington Post article:
"Personality tests that lack the rigor of the Implicit Association Test have been widely used by companies in employee training and even hiring. [...] some proponents tell her it would be unethical not to use the test to screen officials who make life-and-death decisions about others."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27067-2005Jan21.html
3
Mistrust of the police is not just inminority communities. The Broken Windows approach to policing was intended to get those windows fixed, not to declare war on every community with broken windows.
The so-called War On Drugs was intended to go after the worst of the worst, not as a war against children and the poor.
Bankers and brokers defraud, steal, collude, destroy and pillage wantonly across the globe, but not one arrest has been made.
Of course they have no credibility.
The so-called War On Drugs was intended to go after the worst of the worst, not as a war against children and the poor.
Bankers and brokers defraud, steal, collude, destroy and pillage wantonly across the globe, but not one arrest has been made.
Of course they have no credibility.
9
Some who attended this community meeting appeared to be there in hope of stoking a smoldering fire. The right to peaceful protest is one of the cornerstones upon which our nation was built. Throwing chairs at government officials is not.
16
The War on Drugs, declared by the unindicted coconspirator Richard Nixon circa 1970 then brought into full bloom by a corrupt Ronald Reagan, and then practiced by every politician of every stripe afraid being "soft" on drugs who refused to call it out as what the War on Drugs was; a direct attack on ourselves, our liberties, our neighbors, friends and families in the name "morality".
Who fought this so call war? The Police, a direct consequences of which is a two way mutual disrespect where cops look at everyone, especially black men, as "perps" and the civilian population looks at the cops as "pigs".
Fast forward to the government attack on individual liberties through the excuse of the "War on Terror" and Patriot Act is it any wonder why the public in droves has only complete contempt for those charged to "protect and serve them"?
On the other side of the equation law enforcement and corrections face a fast changing landscape where the majority of Americans have declared the War on Drugs a failure and now seek a middle ground where certain illegal drugs are being eased into acceptance within our society.
These are difficult times but through into the stew just for some flavoring a right-wing effort to arm every American to the teeth with powerful fire arms courtesy of the NRA, by the literal attempt at re-writing our 2nd amendment and history.
Many, including myself, wonder how these situations like Philadelphia and else where, do not turn into blood baths.
Who fought this so call war? The Police, a direct consequences of which is a two way mutual disrespect where cops look at everyone, especially black men, as "perps" and the civilian population looks at the cops as "pigs".
Fast forward to the government attack on individual liberties through the excuse of the "War on Terror" and Patriot Act is it any wonder why the public in droves has only complete contempt for those charged to "protect and serve them"?
On the other side of the equation law enforcement and corrections face a fast changing landscape where the majority of Americans have declared the War on Drugs a failure and now seek a middle ground where certain illegal drugs are being eased into acceptance within our society.
These are difficult times but through into the stew just for some flavoring a right-wing effort to arm every American to the teeth with powerful fire arms courtesy of the NRA, by the literal attempt at re-writing our 2nd amendment and history.
Many, including myself, wonder how these situations like Philadelphia and else where, do not turn into blood baths.
2
the answer my friend lies in the calendar. you are too old now to have anything to do with "the Movement," or the "Revolution" it was supposed to bring about. still mad about Nixon? somebody needs to put his rags away and get a haircut.
1
I feel it's important for everyone, black and white, to focus on the reality of this article:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150321_Friends_mourn_Overbrook_man_a...
I work with young black kids, and most of them are as afraid of young, black boys as anyone - regardless of color.
Middle and upper class black men are understandably horrified at the racist treatment they sometimes receive (stopped for driving while black, etc.), but they are often removed from the economically and socially impoverished black dysfunctional family system that creates 14 year old felons who murder a man out walking his dog.
I am white but have black family members. I also come from a dysfunctional family of origin, and know that dysfunction will never stop until perpetrators stop seeing themselves as victims.
The father of one of the dog-walker killers says his son is 'where he's at because he didn't listen.'
Perhaps this is a father who doesn't understand how to speak so that his son would be open to listening.
As long as Dad sees himself as a victim of his son's behavior, the dysfunction in the black community will thrive.
White or black, pay close attention to anyone who claims they are a victim. That is a psychological projection for - perpetrator.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150321_Friends_mourn_Overbrook_man_a...
I work with young black kids, and most of them are as afraid of young, black boys as anyone - regardless of color.
Middle and upper class black men are understandably horrified at the racist treatment they sometimes receive (stopped for driving while black, etc.), but they are often removed from the economically and socially impoverished black dysfunctional family system that creates 14 year old felons who murder a man out walking his dog.
I am white but have black family members. I also come from a dysfunctional family of origin, and know that dysfunction will never stop until perpetrators stop seeing themselves as victims.
The father of one of the dog-walker killers says his son is 'where he's at because he didn't listen.'
Perhaps this is a father who doesn't understand how to speak so that his son would be open to listening.
As long as Dad sees himself as a victim of his son's behavior, the dysfunction in the black community will thrive.
White or black, pay close attention to anyone who claims they are a victim. That is a psychological projection for - perpetrator.
12
dga@
"White or black, pay close attention to anyone who claims they are a victim. That is a psychological projection for - perpetrator"
Your comment is trite. It is the subtle argument implying no such thing as a "victim". That victimization is hyperbole. If there is a history of abuse, malevolence, violence, believe there are victims to go along with it.
If a young girl is raped, do we expect her to be well adjusted if she received no help for her trauma? What if she has a child? Do we not expect that child to carry the burden of that trauma too? Victimization =Dysfunction
"Perhaps this is a father who doesn't understand how to speak so that his son would be open to listening."
Ironically, when it pertains to black parents, they are always to blame for their childs actions. Yet white parents ("Sandy Hook") are seen as victims. The mother of the killer was directly responsible for her son's actions. However, she is seen as a despairing parent, eliciting sympathy. Yes, killed by her very own son, but she also facilitated his murderous rampage. Not once did white society condemn her for her poor parenting, or the father who doesn't live in the home and had very little contact with his son.
White America has a deep double standard issue. To mention that you have "black americans" in your family doesn't actually qualify you to examine black behavior esp. without first examining "causation".
So called "liberals" are part of the problem too, with their obtuse observations...
"White or black, pay close attention to anyone who claims they are a victim. That is a psychological projection for - perpetrator"
Your comment is trite. It is the subtle argument implying no such thing as a "victim". That victimization is hyperbole. If there is a history of abuse, malevolence, violence, believe there are victims to go along with it.
If a young girl is raped, do we expect her to be well adjusted if she received no help for her trauma? What if she has a child? Do we not expect that child to carry the burden of that trauma too? Victimization =Dysfunction
"Perhaps this is a father who doesn't understand how to speak so that his son would be open to listening."
Ironically, when it pertains to black parents, they are always to blame for their childs actions. Yet white parents ("Sandy Hook") are seen as victims. The mother of the killer was directly responsible for her son's actions. However, she is seen as a despairing parent, eliciting sympathy. Yes, killed by her very own son, but she also facilitated his murderous rampage. Not once did white society condemn her for her poor parenting, or the father who doesn't live in the home and had very little contact with his son.
White America has a deep double standard issue. To mention that you have "black americans" in your family doesn't actually qualify you to examine black behavior esp. without first examining "causation".
So called "liberals" are part of the problem too, with their obtuse observations...
2
In a city where law enforcement is used as a means of collecting money as much as enforcing peace, it is little wonder that the black population is rebelling. It does not matter what the color of the racist oppressor is if the target is the same. Ticketing statistics are not collected to show the disparate impact of fines on the poor, even when the rate of violations is the same. And parking tickets are only given to those who can not afford expensive parking lots.
10
I don't think there exists a police department that doesn't also require their officers to be street level tax collectors, even if it's just to pay their own salary. Some people rob you with a gun and some, dressed In blue, tan or black uniforms decorated with shiny badges rob you with a pen and a ticket pad. I really don't think they like that part of the job, but if they'll do what they must if they want the job. Cops, can't live with them,and sure can't live without them in the best, most wonderful nation that ever was, is or will ever be, under some god no less!
1
actually, when our nation began there were no cops.
1
The Philadelphia Police do not issue parking tickets. That task is performed by the Parking Authority. Maybe the rebels should learn how to read. Categorizing Mayor Nutter, Chief Ramsey and DA Seth Williams as "racist oppressors" is totally ludicrous. The town hall meeting was attended by outsiders who could not care less about why the young man was shot. They had their own agenda to stir up trouble.
11
I especially liked Ramsey's muttered quote as he left - delivered without irony:
I've been black longer than most of these folks have been alive
I've been black longer than most of these folks have been alive
19
No matter what long-term factors we may want to blame for the huge amount of black-on-black crime, the fact remains that high crime levels in the hood result in high numbers of potentially violent police-citizen interactions, a very small number of which inevitably result in somebody getting seriously hurt or killed.
10
Do the police really need to be armed with guns? Let them keep the SWAT teams for special situations.
If you can figure out how to guarantee criminals will not have guns then maybe the police will not need them either. They can use Tasers and clubs to subdue criminals if they get close enough and are big and strong enough. Also, if police officers didn't carry guns they would have to rely a lot more on physical strength and size to subdue criminals. That would rule out most women from becoming police officers.
5
Finding the balance between policing a high crime community and abusing this community can be challenging. All the more so when questionable practices like stop-and-frisk are undertaken with some folks without a clear suspicion of criminal activity to support it.
However, following an unfortunate act like this specific one in Phila in December, folks seem to turn a blind on the fact that the individual harmed was either accosted or approached by the police, and then elected to either run or make some type of motion to suggest they are reaching for something.
Black or white, should you be innocent, I would have to think being subject to questioning in a police precinct is a more palatable option than offering the police a reason to think we are going to harm them and opening up the opportunity for them to protect themselves.
While the justification for a police search may not always hold up to scrutiny, if we are innocent, what do we have to lose? I would gladly take a ticket of any type wrongly than subject myself to being shot at to prove a point...
However, following an unfortunate act like this specific one in Phila in December, folks seem to turn a blind on the fact that the individual harmed was either accosted or approached by the police, and then elected to either run or make some type of motion to suggest they are reaching for something.
Black or white, should you be innocent, I would have to think being subject to questioning in a police precinct is a more palatable option than offering the police a reason to think we are going to harm them and opening up the opportunity for them to protect themselves.
While the justification for a police search may not always hold up to scrutiny, if we are innocent, what do we have to lose? I would gladly take a ticket of any type wrongly than subject myself to being shot at to prove a point...
1
Nobody ever seems to mention NETS for subduing "dangerous" or recalcitrant people stopped by cops. Think about it! Compact, easily deployed nets, would have saved a lot of lives, like a man choked to death by cops for selling cigarettes on a street corer.
1
Allow more community leaders to observe/participate/critique police training simulation models and procedures.
1
it would also be very helpful if there were public input and participation in developing the police protocols that they are supposed to follow.
@ken wood below, I say, Amen Bro!
I go to Philadelphia often, and anyone who thinks of socioeconomic issues cannot help but notice some glaring things, an example:
I was at the Penn/Hospital district around CHOP at weekday on a nice fall day last year. There is a mini construction boom in this area. You go into the glass facade research offices you see a sea of white and Asian people doing useful and undoubtedly highly compensated work in the offices. Ok not very strange there we know who earns the STEM PhDs. But you come out on the street at lunch time to the street corner vendors where union construction workers buy lunch. All the workers I counted were white guys (sorry if doing this is not PC). This is a city where 46% of the population is black. Construction work isn't rocket science. You graduate high school and learn a trade that's it. But, it pays darn well, especially in a union city! Now, this is not to say there were no black people at all there. Some nurses in the hospitals were black which is good. But blacks were more predominant as security guards, parking guards, hospital reception, low pay low productivity tasks. Clearly, in quality and quantity employment in this desirable nexus of healthcare and related service had blacks severely under represented. But if you drive a few blocks you will find predominantly black neighborhoods with massive lack of education or training, massive unemployment and higher crime. These are flip sides of a coin.
I go to Philadelphia often, and anyone who thinks of socioeconomic issues cannot help but notice some glaring things, an example:
I was at the Penn/Hospital district around CHOP at weekday on a nice fall day last year. There is a mini construction boom in this area. You go into the glass facade research offices you see a sea of white and Asian people doing useful and undoubtedly highly compensated work in the offices. Ok not very strange there we know who earns the STEM PhDs. But you come out on the street at lunch time to the street corner vendors where union construction workers buy lunch. All the workers I counted were white guys (sorry if doing this is not PC). This is a city where 46% of the population is black. Construction work isn't rocket science. You graduate high school and learn a trade that's it. But, it pays darn well, especially in a union city! Now, this is not to say there were no black people at all there. Some nurses in the hospitals were black which is good. But blacks were more predominant as security guards, parking guards, hospital reception, low pay low productivity tasks. Clearly, in quality and quantity employment in this desirable nexus of healthcare and related service had blacks severely under represented. But if you drive a few blocks you will find predominantly black neighborhoods with massive lack of education or training, massive unemployment and higher crime. These are flip sides of a coin.
11
I was born and raised in Phila for sixty years. Raised in Kensington where that fellow Rocky Balboa later walked. I've gotten three Science degrees. I've been a Sub/Regular teacher in Phila schools for more than ten years.
The simple reason that Blacks constitute such large numbers in basic jobs is that they refuse to do education. Read John McWhorter, Af-Am linguist, formerly UC-Berkely, "Losing the Race, Self Sabotage in Black America." Also, "Come On, People" by Bill Cosby and Af Am Psychiatrist, AF Pouissant. (2006)
The reason the US loses almost a million kids out of high school annually is because the adult establishment is too stupid to apply intelligent, available solutions. We keep performing this dumb exercise of keep throwing money at the problem
The simple reason that Blacks constitute such large numbers in basic jobs is that they refuse to do education. Read John McWhorter, Af-Am linguist, formerly UC-Berkely, "Losing the Race, Self Sabotage in Black America." Also, "Come On, People" by Bill Cosby and Af Am Psychiatrist, AF Pouissant. (2006)
The reason the US loses almost a million kids out of high school annually is because the adult establishment is too stupid to apply intelligent, available solutions. We keep performing this dumb exercise of keep throwing money at the problem
5
keep citing Bill Cosby... good role model.
Unfortunately, it's not as simple as learning a trade, and not everyone is given the opportunity to do so. Speaking as someone who supports trade unions and collective bargaining, Philadelphia's trade unions don't have a history of being racially inclusive in their membership policies and apprentice programs.
5
So there can be protestor violence even with a black chief of police? Clearly, the issue of police brutality isn't strictly an issue of white cops + black victims = racism. The issue is cops drunk on power and the need to play with military "toys" in a civilian setting.
5
Yes protestor violence can exist with Black and other chiefs of color since many of them do not address the anti-black (anti Black people or anyone viewed as non-conformist - including White protestors) organizational cultures that existed prior to their arrival.
It appears the first lesson in police training is to say, "I feared for my life," whenever there is a questionable death.
6
Maybe the reason Phila police are trigger anxious is that in the past fifteen years nine have lost their lives to Af-Am robbers. In the past few weeks an Af-Am officer was killed in a shoot out with Af-Am robbers across from Dobbins HS. Couple years back another Af-Am officer shot dead being robbed after going off duty. Killed by Af-Ams in the Temple Univ area.
Law abiding people are tired of the attitude.
Law abiding people are tired of the attitude.
10
"But because the department had never ordered the crowd to disperse"
What makes you think that you were supposed to make them disperse in the first place? They have the right to peaceable assembly, and were exercising that right.
I had friends who were involved in the Sept 2002 protests. The night before the protests were scheduled (with proper permits), much of the leadership of the protest groups were arrested on the grounds that the PVC pipe they were using to make puppets could also be used to make pipe bombs (the complete lack of explosives in the location notwithstanding). They were held long enough to ensure that they couldn't do what they had planned, and then released without charges.
There needs to be a major mindset change from police about protest. Philadelphia isn't the only city that needs to think hard about this.
What makes you think that you were supposed to make them disperse in the first place? They have the right to peaceable assembly, and were exercising that right.
I had friends who were involved in the Sept 2002 protests. The night before the protests were scheduled (with proper permits), much of the leadership of the protest groups were arrested on the grounds that the PVC pipe they were using to make puppets could also be used to make pipe bombs (the complete lack of explosives in the location notwithstanding). They were held long enough to ensure that they couldn't do what they had planned, and then released without charges.
There needs to be a major mindset change from police about protest. Philadelphia isn't the only city that needs to think hard about this.
7
Maybe if the NRA was defanged we could develop some meaningful controls on who has guns and take some of the fear out of police work. To do this maybe everyone should become a member of the NRA and demand some sanity in that organization.
4
Believe me, should tighter controls on firearms be instituted, law abiding citizens will follow them, not criminals.
8
Thanks, I will send them a check tomorrow in your honor. If anything the NRA needs bigger fangs.
1
Why are police perceived the way they are by the public, because they are actually able to break the law without any consequences, up to and including murder.
What this cop did was straight up murder. There can be no excuse for shooting and killing someone for something they might do. Only a complete coward would think he was justified in killing someone because of what he was afraid the man was going to do.
Am I the only one thinks this is not a race issue, instead it is a cowardice issue on the part of the cop? Using his justification, he would have murdered anyone who he THOUGHT might do something that scared him. There's nothing in the constitution that says the executive branch gets to use lethal force to protect themselves from something that MIGHT happened.
Maybe this isn't cowardice. Maybe this officer is too stupid to understand the law he is paid to enforce and has never heard of the constitution.
What this cop did was straight up murder. There can be no excuse for shooting and killing someone for something they might do. Only a complete coward would think he was justified in killing someone because of what he was afraid the man was going to do.
Am I the only one thinks this is not a race issue, instead it is a cowardice issue on the part of the cop? Using his justification, he would have murdered anyone who he THOUGHT might do something that scared him. There's nothing in the constitution that says the executive branch gets to use lethal force to protect themselves from something that MIGHT happened.
Maybe this isn't cowardice. Maybe this officer is too stupid to understand the law he is paid to enforce and has never heard of the constitution.
13
I concur that the issue of cowardice has been woefully underdeveloped. I would assert however that race is an interrelated factor since when it comes to race there is only one certainty - it is always about race! It is truly ironic that police are viewed as heroes yet we've seen a wave of "cowardice cases (including Ferguson)" wherein officers have voiced the now-hackneyed phrase - "I was afraid for my life." Is this the conduct NYPD if referring to when they dub themselves "the finest?"
2
That is the law in Missouri. It is a subjective standard. If the officer believed his life was in danger he could use deadly force. That is not the standard in Pennsylvania. The question is would a reasonable man under the same circumstances be justified in using deadly force. DA Seth Williams would indict his mother if he thought she had broken the law. He has recently filed corruption charges against 7 powerful black politicians and judges. The fact that he reviewed this shooting and determined that it was justified speaks volumes.
4
The white establishment, by use of racist tactics set this up generations ago.
Blacks folks and police have never had an amicable relationship. There has always been an oppressive way of policing used in black communities long before there was violence at the rate it is today. Before drugs, gangs, and gun violence the police had been profiling, abusing, killing, and promoting criminal activity in black communities.
Yes, many urban police dept.'s were in collusion with the "mob", who went into black communities operating vice, paying graft to police.
Heroin was promoted by "mobster's", sold by "miscreant" blacks , and protected by the police. How do you think heroin became so accessible, sold with virtual impunity? It was sold in poor black communities, in despair.
Racist law/policy perpetuated what we see today in relation to the police, facilitating years of oppression by police. The causation should be thoroughly examined.It created a culture of lawlessness among police, among poor residents in marginalized communities, and among corrupt politicians.
Is it important the public to understands proper policing, yet police have the responsibility to institute trust in these communities. The history is foul, and has never been fair to blacks. Whites have no clue.Even with proof of misconduct or abuse , they rationalize. What they fail to understand is that the police were the "enforcers" of racist policy. Meant to keep blacks in check,simply. Now it is imploding....
Blacks folks and police have never had an amicable relationship. There has always been an oppressive way of policing used in black communities long before there was violence at the rate it is today. Before drugs, gangs, and gun violence the police had been profiling, abusing, killing, and promoting criminal activity in black communities.
Yes, many urban police dept.'s were in collusion with the "mob", who went into black communities operating vice, paying graft to police.
Heroin was promoted by "mobster's", sold by "miscreant" blacks , and protected by the police. How do you think heroin became so accessible, sold with virtual impunity? It was sold in poor black communities, in despair.
Racist law/policy perpetuated what we see today in relation to the police, facilitating years of oppression by police. The causation should be thoroughly examined.It created a culture of lawlessness among police, among poor residents in marginalized communities, and among corrupt politicians.
Is it important the public to understands proper policing, yet police have the responsibility to institute trust in these communities. The history is foul, and has never been fair to blacks. Whites have no clue.Even with proof of misconduct or abuse , they rationalize. What they fail to understand is that the police were the "enforcers" of racist policy. Meant to keep blacks in check,simply. Now it is imploding....
18
Well said.
1
A lot of mistrust of police stems from having negative and unnecessary interactions with police, such as stop and frisk, and revenue raising ticketing, especially in minority communities.
If you eliminated those, or greatly reduced those, then when police interacted with the community, it would be for actually stopping or investigating a crime or helping out with something like a parade. That would be similar to the way police served white communities and you'd see a marked increase in cooperation and support.
If you eliminated those, or greatly reduced those, then when police interacted with the community, it would be for actually stopping or investigating a crime or helping out with something like a parade. That would be similar to the way police served white communities and you'd see a marked increase in cooperation and support.
7
A lot of the mistrust of minority communities by the police stems from having unnecessary law breaking by members of that community, such as robberies, muggings, drive by shootings, and domestic violence.
If you eliminated those, or greatly reduced those, then when police entered these communities they might not feel so fearful, leading to a more respectful attitude to the individuals. If members of minority communities behaved towards the police the way members of white communities do, you would see a marked decrease in the kind of incidents reported here.
If you eliminated those, or greatly reduced those, then when police entered these communities they might not feel so fearful, leading to a more respectful attitude to the individuals. If members of minority communities behaved towards the police the way members of white communities do, you would see a marked decrease in the kind of incidents reported here.
6
The best way to break away from the images of armed, conscienceless police officers shooting unarmed black men and Boys, is for them to STOP doing it, and to openly display the evidence to the public, to show no favoritism towards these officers. Retool, retrain, repopulate police forces, here and all around the country. If they don't, much worse demonstrations can, and will, happen. Summer is coming, anger is building.
7
ejzim you are so right about summer coming. what kept me glued to the demonstrations lately was the fact that winter was not stopping them this year. good for the fed up populace. the powers that hold the public in check for the first time are starting to realize that the end does not justify the means but the end does justify the protests. yeah keep marching people but remember to VOTE when you can and just maybe long after i am gone from this mortal coil this place might get sanity. come on KIDS it is all up to you
1
Amen ejzim. People all over the world are beginning to see the unfairness, brutality, and dire economic results of racist policing. Malcolm X, James Baldwin, MLK, and countless others before and after them have raised this very issue over and over and over. Deniers deny because it fits their quest for power and the racial narrative of black inferiority and social deviance, especially in decaying inner cities and poor black rural areas, which Ta Nehusi Coates and others like Michelle Alexander have so expertly shown were created by discriminatory federal and state lending, housing and transportation policy, theft, and political disenfranchisement.
3
Many commenters have commented on the undeniable fact that a certain portion of police officers behave in disrespectful at best, brutal at worst manner and call for better selection and training. Other have noted the high rates of crime and violence in our communities, and the danger police are often in, and offer statistics that suggest, bad as it is, it could be much worse. No one yet has commented on a significant root cause - the failed "War on Drugs". Just as violent crime rates skyrocketed during alcohol prohibition and fell dramatically in the months following its end, we've seen even worse violence in pursuit of drug profits. Crime rates have nosedived in Switzerland and Portugal after legalizing drugs. The vast majority of our prisons are overfilled with drug offenders. Not only do you drastically reduce crime by eliminating the profit, wherever it has been tried, the rates of drug use go DOWN. All of this extremely well documented in the book "Chasing the Scream" by Jonathan Hari. Please read it.
9
Why did people choose to become violent at this public meeting instead of exercising some self control? We must be able to have conversations, apt to be highly heated at times, without dissolving into chaos. It's unfortunate that in reading the news accounts the real issues almost become overshadowed by the disruption. It's hard to feel sympathetic and listen to anyone when they resort to such actions.
12
Answer: A human being was shot on the back of the head.
5
Protesters confronted, aggressively but non-violently, Commissioner Ramsey and Direct Attorney Williams about the investigation of Brandon Tate-Brown's killing. The melee broke out when the police, including those pictured in the center of the main photo to this article, violently shoved protesters into the crowd behind them seated in chairs.
7
The last time I checked, laughter, anger, and the like are considered emotions. One can try not to laugh at something very funny, but it is almost impossible when it is extremely funny. I am pretty sure this subject, teenagers being shot in multiple Cities across the country, has become an "extremely angry" subject. You may think violence has no place in this arena, but you'd be wrong. Sometimes violence is a viable option.
Is the problem in Philadelphia or other cities racism or is it lack of education and fair wage employment opportunities. I grew up in North Philly. What I remember is small machine shops, textile mills, factories and other small businesses that provided neighborhood employment opportunities where a kid could learn job skills. Today they are boarded up. Sometimes it is necessary to envision experiencing the problem in order to find a solution. (poverty + drugs = crime)
5
Mr Ramsey is correct about the dangerous program titles like "war on Drugs" and "Fighting Crime". We should be studying this problem from a Socioeconomic with insight. In Philadelphia, the Public Schools are poorly managed and the majority of black students are not prepared for work in an increasingly complex economy. Unemployment among young black adults is egregious. Incarceration rates are frighteningly high. As a result, Children are growing up without one or both parents. Drug use is a factor and since we treat drug addicts as criminals, the citizens end up in prison verses rehab. Once you have a criminal record, say goodbye to your chances for a good paying job. And to top it off, we have as many guns as you want of any caliber with automatic capability and a dozen rounds in a clip. Philly's recipe is to add thousands of impoverished teenage black males into a socioeconomic disadvantaged violent neighborhood. Put in a series of underfunded Gladiator schools where violence and intimidation is the norm. Add a tincture of gang culture. Limit the amount of parenting and adult supervision. Ensure that hopelessness is the norm. And make certain you incorporate an unlimited amount of guns. Now, put the heat up real high while you deploy a limited amount of police officers with their own weapons in the neighborhood. An finally, ramp up the political rhetoric with candidates who get elected by being" tough on crime". This is certainly a recipe for disaster.
7
The Problem is Culture Not Color
With the recent scathing Justice Department assessment of the Ferguson, MO. police chief and overall assessment of its blatant and pervasive disregard for the civil rights of minority communities coupled with similar issues in a city with minority law enforcement leaders its obvious the problem isn't color but the culture of justice and law enforcement in the United States.
State prosecutors and their accomplices in police departments have been engaged in a de facto war, not against crime but against minority communities based on their presumptive culture of implied criminality. The broken window philosophy of many law enforcement agencies is, in application a systematic unconstitutional racial profiling.
The often verified statistics of incarceration in America attests to the existence of a criminal justice system which is racially biased. African American are over 80% of inmates incarcerated for drug possession and distribution but constitute less than 20% of the U.S. population. It is improbable for less than 20% of this country's citizens possess and distribute 80% of illicit drugs.
The incidents in Ferguson and Philadelphia are undeniable examples of a justified, long standing seething enmity and distrust law enforcement in America has engendered in minority communities. Remediation of the underlying causes within criminal justice agencies can no longer be ignored or delayed.
With the recent scathing Justice Department assessment of the Ferguson, MO. police chief and overall assessment of its blatant and pervasive disregard for the civil rights of minority communities coupled with similar issues in a city with minority law enforcement leaders its obvious the problem isn't color but the culture of justice and law enforcement in the United States.
State prosecutors and their accomplices in police departments have been engaged in a de facto war, not against crime but against minority communities based on their presumptive culture of implied criminality. The broken window philosophy of many law enforcement agencies is, in application a systematic unconstitutional racial profiling.
The often verified statistics of incarceration in America attests to the existence of a criminal justice system which is racially biased. African American are over 80% of inmates incarcerated for drug possession and distribution but constitute less than 20% of the U.S. population. It is improbable for less than 20% of this country's citizens possess and distribute 80% of illicit drugs.
The incidents in Ferguson and Philadelphia are undeniable examples of a justified, long standing seething enmity and distrust law enforcement in America has engendered in minority communities. Remediation of the underlying causes within criminal justice agencies can no longer be ignored or delayed.
1
This issue is bigger than just police - minority relations. The police are the front line agents of a larger repressive state apparatus. And its use of mean tactics often has the tacit support of the broader community. This dynamic began in slavery when "slave patrols" were the model for police departments.
In parallel relationship, the broader community supports social & economic policies that keep a disproportionate number of black men in a state of depravity. Far too many are wasted by the cycle of joblessness, lack of skills and education, broken families, brutish attitudes, low self-esteem, and public demonizing and disrespect. Their condition off-sets public recognition of the hard-work and achievements of working and middle-class blacks.
The broader community is often shocked by the consequences of young black male "failure to thrive." Its response is a spiral of fear and support for repressive measures like broken windows policing, zero tolerance sentencing, war on drugs mass incarcerations, and economic displacement by immigrants legal and illegal. The police are on the front line for carrying out many of these initiatives and carry the burden.
All of which is to say that while the focus on better policing is necessary, more is needed to address underlying problems. It means dealing with black male underdevelopment, white fear, and political figures who use that fear to enact policies of repression.
In parallel relationship, the broader community supports social & economic policies that keep a disproportionate number of black men in a state of depravity. Far too many are wasted by the cycle of joblessness, lack of skills and education, broken families, brutish attitudes, low self-esteem, and public demonizing and disrespect. Their condition off-sets public recognition of the hard-work and achievements of working and middle-class blacks.
The broader community is often shocked by the consequences of young black male "failure to thrive." Its response is a spiral of fear and support for repressive measures like broken windows policing, zero tolerance sentencing, war on drugs mass incarcerations, and economic displacement by immigrants legal and illegal. The police are on the front line for carrying out many of these initiatives and carry the burden.
All of which is to say that while the focus on better policing is necessary, more is needed to address underlying problems. It means dealing with black male underdevelopment, white fear, and political figures who use that fear to enact policies of repression.
3
You can argue these issues any way you like, but at the end of the day it comes down to two simple issues - easy access to guns and lack of opportunity for those already in the dumps. You may have racism and petty crime, but it won't turn violent to the degree it does today if you take away the weapons that make it these crimes deadly.
As has been argued many times, the US has a problem with guns. As far as I'm concerned, you can be as free as you like, but you are not free to make the environment dangerous for me and everyone else by carrying a deadly weapon.
As has been argued many times, the US has a problem with guns. As far as I'm concerned, you can be as free as you like, but you are not free to make the environment dangerous for me and everyone else by carrying a deadly weapon.
2
Zero tolerance policies -- whether in schools, at work, or on the streets -- are little more than codification of intolerance based largely on race, but also on a generalized and irrational fear of our youth. But zero tolerance is precisely what legislatures have demanded from teachers, police officers, and private employers (as in not hiring those previously convicted of a felony, no matter how long ago or how unrelated). Now we have teachers, police officers, and employers enforcing these policies and battling with the results in our schools, our places of work, and our streets. There is no denying the structural racism in these policies and we should not let the state legislatures off the hook. Changing these laws and regulations isn't a fix in itself, but it is one of many steps that society must demand.
4
its quite saddening to see the loss of perspective people have ; the people who attended this meeting rioted because they didnt get the conclusion that they WANTED to get based on the facts.
over and over this has repeated itself in media where a conclusion about who and what went on is alluded to and speculated on and offered as an inevitable determination only to be turned on its head by the facts and in turn the spectacle of disorder worthy of a Jerry Springer show
over and over this has repeated itself in media where a conclusion about who and what went on is alluded to and speculated on and offered as an inevitable determination only to be turned on its head by the facts and in turn the spectacle of disorder worthy of a Jerry Springer show
7
I look forward to the NYT article about the other side of this "coin", so we can all sit and comment about the criminal perpetrators who are found at the end of an officer's gun. Wasn't the root cause of Brown's shooting supposed to be the mindset of the predominantly white police force vs. the predominantly black community? How does that argument hold up in light of Philadelphia's law enforcement hierarchy? It's ridiculous to think that a man/woman who sets out each day to do his/her job is in greater jeopardy of the public's ridicule and disdain, at the very least, than the criminal who sets out to rob, rape, kill... And every time we hear it's the police who need training, more "respectful" attitudes, etc., I almost laugh. The dangers of sweeping attitudes against law enforcers are just as evil as those against people of color.
11
Exactly what is the "job" that some police officers "set out" to do? What are the norms, values, beliefs and customs shaping their mindset? If an officer works in an intolerant department obviously that officer will be performing a different job than an officer in a positive organizational culture.
This is an extremely complex topic that polarizes rather than resolves, but it is best to have this conversation. It is an old story, and not always racial. Some white families in my childhood neighborhood would complain about the police for singling out their children. The context was that the subjects were involved in various unsavory activities. Higher crime situations breed suspicion.
The role of the police is complexified by hundreds of years of history, economic disparity, disarrayed families, lingering racism, poor education and distrust. It's a bad situation, and it's going to take major efforts, both from the police and the communities, to solve. In my childhood community, parents generally encouraged responsibility; the law was to be respected.
While there is distrust of the law in some communities, nothing will be resolved until those communities develop that trust, and it has to come from them with a sense of honesty. For example, if true, what was Mr. Tate-Brown doing with a concealed weapon in his car? Likewise, in Ferguson, a shop keeper was molested. The inordinate amount of violence continues in these communities.
In dealing with police relations, communities are going to have to improve themselves as well. That appears to be extremely difficult to accomplish.
The role of the police is complexified by hundreds of years of history, economic disparity, disarrayed families, lingering racism, poor education and distrust. It's a bad situation, and it's going to take major efforts, both from the police and the communities, to solve. In my childhood community, parents generally encouraged responsibility; the law was to be respected.
While there is distrust of the law in some communities, nothing will be resolved until those communities develop that trust, and it has to come from them with a sense of honesty. For example, if true, what was Mr. Tate-Brown doing with a concealed weapon in his car? Likewise, in Ferguson, a shop keeper was molested. The inordinate amount of violence continues in these communities.
In dealing with police relations, communities are going to have to improve themselves as well. That appears to be extremely difficult to accomplish.
6
The label "those communities" is the problem. Decades of white flight and segregation have created "those communities," so the problem is an American problem and is not isolated to "those communities."
3
Yes, I agree, behavior and attitudes, on both side will have to change. This is a chicken and egg problem. Someone will have to stick his/her hand out first--take a chance. Takes courage. I'm thinking Martin Luther King, Jr.
2
And the notion that police have to protect themselves from cop killer blacks in the hood is laughable. Just Google "man points gun at police" or "man struggles with police" or do a search on guys in open carry states threatening cops and you will find lots of stories about white males who were "apprehended" , taken in to custody peacefully or not arrested at all.
If there really was an epidemic of black males killing police, all hell would break loose. Being a police officer is safer than it has ever been. Stereotypes and ginned up irrational fear, something that started during Reconstruction and continues today, is really what causes cops to target blacks and overreact when working in black neighborhoods, together with the failed and discriminatory war on drugs, desire to raise revenue as in Ferguson, and support the prison industrial complex. Some cities, and states are waking up, and realizing that they must change their policies because jailing hordes of people is too expensive Thank goodness that sensible people like Corey Booker and Rand Paul are also working on justice reform and are making pragmatic, common sense arguments about why it's needed to help our economy and ensure we luve up to our democratic ideals.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/10/02/once-again-po...
If there really was an epidemic of black males killing police, all hell would break loose. Being a police officer is safer than it has ever been. Stereotypes and ginned up irrational fear, something that started during Reconstruction and continues today, is really what causes cops to target blacks and overreact when working in black neighborhoods, together with the failed and discriminatory war on drugs, desire to raise revenue as in Ferguson, and support the prison industrial complex. Some cities, and states are waking up, and realizing that they must change their policies because jailing hordes of people is too expensive Thank goodness that sensible people like Corey Booker and Rand Paul are also working on justice reform and are making pragmatic, common sense arguments about why it's needed to help our economy and ensure we luve up to our democratic ideals.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/10/02/once-again-po...
7
People can say what they want; they can spew their nonsense about the race card and black immorality or lack of social values and how the whole black community is this or that. These arguments have zero merit. Police have preyed on our community as a matter of policy. I am a well educated, upper middle class black man, a husband, father and brither who has never committed a crime. I and all of my black friends, and my brother, who, have similar education and socioeconomic status, have experienced in our lifetimes (we are all in our 50s) racist, brutal, disrespectful treatment by police. Why? Not because of anything we have done or anything that we have done that is different than what any white guy has done. Why then? We live in a racist society that starts to treat black males differently for no other reason than the color of their skin when they enter pre-kindergarten in school. These silly conversations about race and racial tensions are useless. Would you tell a battered woman to have a conversation with her abuser?
25
DC Observer; I'm a while male of similar age .. can't say I have experienced "brutal" treatment. But, as a young man, both in college (urban setting) and my first job (urban setting) I experienced police behavior that I felt was heavy handed and inappropriate .. and witnessed worse. Police tactics in more dangerous urban areas are universally more confrontational IMO. I was regularly stopped as a potential drug buyer.
I don't envy the cops in these areas ... nor do I have a solution. I do know that it is not all racial.
I don't envy the cops in these areas ... nor do I have a solution. I do know that it is not all racial.
2
DC Observer@ Great point.. Then again who wants to face the" reality" when it's so stark and tragic....
1
I'm not sure when it will happen but at some point the black community will have to step up and acknowledge that they have a serious problem. The violence in the black community is real .. and it is directed towards every race.
I have lived in Philadelphia on three separate occasions and like every other major city I have lived in, the various ethnic groups are afraid of young black men. I'm not afraid of thee asian kids walking towards me in Philly... We just this month had a shooting where three kids, two 15 years old and one 14 years old .. shot a white man out walking his dog .. killed him. What does it say when whole populations fear 14 and 15 year old black children ... sad.
Fear makes people irrational .. and the police have fear .. and ..for a reason.
I have lived in Philadelphia on three separate occasions and like every other major city I have lived in, the various ethnic groups are afraid of young black men. I'm not afraid of thee asian kids walking towards me in Philly... We just this month had a shooting where three kids, two 15 years old and one 14 years old .. shot a white man out walking his dog .. killed him. What does it say when whole populations fear 14 and 15 year old black children ... sad.
Fear makes people irrational .. and the police have fear .. and ..for a reason.
58
The simple answer is that fear will make everyone who can abandon the city, if the problem is not controlled. There are no gangs dangerous young black guys walking around out in the countryside.
4
Your comment is spot on, but so few are willing to acknowledge these facts, lest they be labeled a "racist."
Point in fact, the Philadelphia police officer, Robert Wilson III, killed a few weeks ago when he intervened in an armed robbery. Did the NYT even cover that event? The man was a true hero and loved by his community.
And, he was black.
Point in fact, the Philadelphia police officer, Robert Wilson III, killed a few weeks ago when he intervened in an armed robbery. Did the NYT even cover that event? The man was a true hero and loved by his community.
And, he was black.
5
The "black community" exists because of white flight and segregation. So the "serious problem" is not a "black community" problem, it is an American problem.
“As a group, police chiefs have always been more progressive than the rank-and-file, and it’s not all that clear that chiefs are going to be successful in carrying the rank-and-file with them,” Professor Simon said.
Correction. Police chiefs hired by city councils are progressive. They are a reflection of those mostly Democrat city commissioners in large urban centers. Those who are elected are much more conservative.
Correction. Police chiefs hired by city councils are progressive. They are a reflection of those mostly Democrat city commissioners in large urban centers. Those who are elected are much more conservative.
3
In any case, it's all very well for a police chief to sit in a safe office and pontificate. The actual police officers, both black and white, propose to kill the criminals before the criminals kill them.
3
The actual police officers actually propose to kill anyone who even gives the appearance of being a minor threat to the officer. Which is why we have frightened cops running around this country shooting unarmed civilians, shooting mentally ill people, shooting service dogs. Our cops, besides being authoritarian bullies, are also apparently easily frightened delicate flowers, who tend to respond with lethal force to situations that other trained professionals have been taught to confront through de-escalation. Hence, we have the most lethal and murderous (and bullying and authoritarian) police forces in the developed world.
3
So many officers choose to go to the gun first, even though armed with pepper spray, batons and training in unarmed combat. It seems that if they have an excuse to shoot, they do. Just watch the recent videos of Dallas police shooting a mentally ill man holding a screwdriver. I suspect that deep in police culture shooting a "bad guy" is a badge of honor.
16
" I suspect that deep in police culture shooting a "bad guy" is a badge of honor."
Very true. When I was young our neighbor was a the only police officer in our town who had killed a criminal. It was not surprising that he was promoted to captain very quickly.
Very true. When I was young our neighbor was a the only police officer in our town who had killed a criminal. It was not surprising that he was promoted to captain very quickly.
2
I respectfully disagree. Since your comment is the form of an opinion, I will not challenge by asking for data and facts in support thereof.
Police officers are extensively trained and are required to pass exams before being deputized to carry firearms and enforce the law on behalf of the citizenry. In my experience, and I have never seen any fact (not lies, such as those by Ferguson witness 101), that law enforcement seeks any excuse to use their firearms. It is quite the contrary - no officer wants to kill another human being. That carries with the officer the rest of his/her life.
That being said, when faced with a potential life or death situation, it is established fact that law enforcement officers typically have less than 4 seconds to make that decision to fire or not. It's your life, with your family, on the line. What would you do? That is where there training comes in. Rest assured, the individual on the other hand, has no training whatsoever, and will kill without a thought if that is his/her intent.
That is not to say that law enforcement doesn't make mistakes. They do. They are human. But, by and large, they make the best decision all things considered.
Again - put your life and your family in that situation. A guy is fighting you for your gun, has a gun under the seat in his car and is reaching, or is charging with a knife. You have less than four seconds. What do you do?
Time's up.
Police officers are extensively trained and are required to pass exams before being deputized to carry firearms and enforce the law on behalf of the citizenry. In my experience, and I have never seen any fact (not lies, such as those by Ferguson witness 101), that law enforcement seeks any excuse to use their firearms. It is quite the contrary - no officer wants to kill another human being. That carries with the officer the rest of his/her life.
That being said, when faced with a potential life or death situation, it is established fact that law enforcement officers typically have less than 4 seconds to make that decision to fire or not. It's your life, with your family, on the line. What would you do? That is where there training comes in. Rest assured, the individual on the other hand, has no training whatsoever, and will kill without a thought if that is his/her intent.
That is not to say that law enforcement doesn't make mistakes. They do. They are human. But, by and large, they make the best decision all things considered.
Again - put your life and your family in that situation. A guy is fighting you for your gun, has a gun under the seat in his car and is reaching, or is charging with a knife. You have less than four seconds. What do you do?
Time's up.
6
Plenty of your assertions don't pass muster, let's explore two:
1. You indicated that "police officers are "extensively trained." There is no uniform police training standard across the US. Small jurisdictions in particular may offer a few days training versus a large department like NYPD which offers several months. So, depending on the jurisdiction an officer's skills may be woefully inadequate. Your training assertion therefore is not true.
2. "No officer wants to kill another human being. That carries with the officer the rest of his/her life." This assertions gets tossed about all the time with virtually no analysis. We must initially inquire if there is a percentage of officers who don't view people of color, non-conformists, etc. as "human beings." We are all familiar with America's long history of delegitimizing people of color. This current weekend four Ft. Lauderdale police officers were fired for sending racist texts and making racist videos (including negative illustrations of the president - the chief commander). These episodes, which occur with increasing regularity, are prima facie evidence of officer contempt for persons of color. Officers certainly does not have empathy for those they detest and would not harbor any pain/grief for those they intentionally/accidentally kill. Therefore, this assertion falls also.
1. You indicated that "police officers are "extensively trained." There is no uniform police training standard across the US. Small jurisdictions in particular may offer a few days training versus a large department like NYPD which offers several months. So, depending on the jurisdiction an officer's skills may be woefully inadequate. Your training assertion therefore is not true.
2. "No officer wants to kill another human being. That carries with the officer the rest of his/her life." This assertions gets tossed about all the time with virtually no analysis. We must initially inquire if there is a percentage of officers who don't view people of color, non-conformists, etc. as "human beings." We are all familiar with America's long history of delegitimizing people of color. This current weekend four Ft. Lauderdale police officers were fired for sending racist texts and making racist videos (including negative illustrations of the president - the chief commander). These episodes, which occur with increasing regularity, are prima facie evidence of officer contempt for persons of color. Officers certainly does not have empathy for those they detest and would not harbor any pain/grief for those they intentionally/accidentally kill. Therefore, this assertion falls also.
1
If every police officer in every urban area in 10 years was a minority officer, will there be less violence on the part of the young men in those urban areas? A rhetorical question that no can answer, of course.
But in the past 8 months the implied assumption in this media frenzy is that white male police officers are inherently more inclined to "shoot first, ask questions later"
If we accept that premise, then let's do what the first African-Amerian mayor of Detroit, Coleman A. Young, did as soon as he took office in 1974: Overhaul the Detroit Police Dept. and push for affirmative action.
He was successful; the dept. was nearly all African-American by the 1990s.
Did that reduce the crimes perpetrated on residents by young men?
The army of armchair critics of police departments simply do not want to deal with the reality of all the other issues affecting the violence.
But an African-American Missouri State Police officer summed it up best on day two of the post-grand jury rioting there:
"We have to find a better way of raising our sons"
But in the past 8 months the implied assumption in this media frenzy is that white male police officers are inherently more inclined to "shoot first, ask questions later"
If we accept that premise, then let's do what the first African-Amerian mayor of Detroit, Coleman A. Young, did as soon as he took office in 1974: Overhaul the Detroit Police Dept. and push for affirmative action.
He was successful; the dept. was nearly all African-American by the 1990s.
Did that reduce the crimes perpetrated on residents by young men?
The army of armchair critics of police departments simply do not want to deal with the reality of all the other issues affecting the violence.
But an African-American Missouri State Police officer summed it up best on day two of the post-grand jury rioting there:
"We have to find a better way of raising our sons"
27
Excellent, reasoned comment, Kevin. There is nothing more to add. Facts don't lie, only people do.
Did you really say affirmative action? Not with this Supreme Court.
It's time for the police to stop selecting who gets to join the force. In many departments this results in a self selected group of authoritarians taking policing off in an extreme direction lacking sympathy toward the community. The best police combine a judicious use of force with a serious dose of social worker sensibility.
Given that there is a poorly functioning mental health system in our country, the police are often interacting with mentally ill individuals. A role for which they receive little training and in which compliance efforts often have tragic results.
We should hire graduates of social work and psychology programs to be police, or have a continuing education requirement in these fields for officers. The officers would have more non-violent tools to resolve difficult situations peacefully. The community might experience policing that includes a healthy measure of sympathy instead of being cast as dirtbags and perps.
Given that there is a poorly functioning mental health system in our country, the police are often interacting with mentally ill individuals. A role for which they receive little training and in which compliance efforts often have tragic results.
We should hire graduates of social work and psychology programs to be police, or have a continuing education requirement in these fields for officers. The officers would have more non-violent tools to resolve difficult situations peacefully. The community might experience policing that includes a healthy measure of sympathy instead of being cast as dirtbags and perps.
4
Such recruits would have a tough time surviving. The criminals would laugh and then shoot them dead. Those who survived would soon adopt attitudes similar to the police we have now.
5
Ramsey was smart not to release the officer's name and give into mob rule. Philadelphia has neighborhoods that experience on average 2 to 3 murders each week of young Black men being murdered by each other. I read these sad statistics daily. This month we had a police officer shot to death by two Black men, while trying to stop a robbery. Mr Ramsey knows that in order to maintain basic safety on the streets the police have to do their job. If not, all the gentrification experienced in the ten years can be at risk to the Philadelphia of the 80',s when murders and violent crimes were much higher than today.
29
Civil servants have become tyrants & leeches. It's time the public act as the checks & balances, because the law obviously isn't on our side anymore! We get shot because of skin color, strip searched & jailed over traffic tickets, taxed into homeless shelters, harassed for questioning authority, denied our right to vote for a petty offense 25 years ago, etc... We need real change, not lip service from a politician.
5
Robert Wilson, the police officer who was just murdered in Philadelphia, was also African-American. He was at a video store, buying a gift for his son, when two men entered with guns. He was shot in the head while moving away from the other people in the store, in order to draw fire away from them.
But of course, not a word in this article.
The Times really, really cares about African-Americans.
But of course, not a word in this article.
The Times really, really cares about African-Americans.
36
Robert Wilson III was a true hero and paid the ultimate sacrifice. And, as you note, not a mention.
5
The article also doesn't mention the practice of civil assets forfeiture, rampant in Philadelphia.
7
Sure people are shot by police and it is probably up near the top as far as western countries are concerned BUT we also are at the top for police killed in the line of duty. So it goes both ways. Perception is the problem. Police go into a high crime area and assume everyone could be the next criminal to kill a cop or commit crime and the black community mixing the historical fact of persecution by police with the aassumption that police are the problem causes these reactions.
16
Statistics do not support your point. 32 law enforcement officers were shot in 2013 -- way below the number of people shot by police. Total number of construction workers who died on the job that year: 215. Number of truck drivers who died on the job that year: 748.
9
I suppose it never occurred to you but the one place where America stands head and shoulders above eh rest of the world is gun ownership. Not merely the ownership, which is a constitutional right, but the ever increasing easing of restrictions and responsibilities of gun ownership. WV wants to eliminate permits and safety testing for concealed carry. In FL, one merely has to "feel afraid" for one's life to be justified in shooting someone else. Some in the Senate are renewing their call for making a concealed permit into a drivers licence type document, only without the strictness of testing.
I know..."guns don't kill people". But people use guns to kill people, and increasing the number of guns while reducing the training and common sense restrictions on just just who should be allowed to carry a lethal, easily concealed weapon merely exacerbates the issues you point out.
I know..."guns don't kill people". But people use guns to kill people, and increasing the number of guns while reducing the training and common sense restrictions on just just who should be allowed to carry a lethal, easily concealed weapon merely exacerbates the issues you point out.
12
I have lived in and around Philadelphia all my life, and most of the time I lived in the city it was in what I would define as high crime neighborhood, where police hassled every young man, not just black ones. Chief Ramsey is by far the best police commissioner the city has had since the 50's, and that probably means he is the best it has ever had. He has earned the trust of its citizens, and they should acknowledge that, rather than automatically assuming that every time a police officer fires a gun it is an overreaction or worse. Just this week three 15 year old boys shot a 51 year old father walking his dog for no reason at all. I wish these protesters would make as much noise about the young men carrying so many guns and taking so many drugs in this city as they do about police shootings. It is the guns these young me carry that scare me, not the police.and especially not Chief Ramsey's department.
76
well said
2
You took the words right out of my mouth. I am a white male born in West Philadelphia 64 years ago who has , over the years, seen a series of horrendous Police Commissioners and Mayors.
It will be a sad day for Philadelphia when Charles Ramsey retires.
It will be a sad day for Philadelphia when Charles Ramsey retires.
2
Guns and the "No snitchin'" campaign that makes citizens afraid to report who the perps are scare me. I live near Philly, but there are large sections of it I won't set foot in. Sad.
3
This article about Philadelphia found space to talk about Ferguson Mo but could not spare even a sentence to inform its readers of this recent event:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150315_Police_Medal_of_Valor_named_f...
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150315_Police_Medal_of_Valor_named_f...
24
Officer Wilson, a black man, recently killed in an heroic gun battle, received an enormous show of respect and affection at his funeral in Philadelphia. I agree, for those of us familiar with that tragedy, mention of him was conspicuous in its absence. Not absent in this article, however, was the Times reminding us for the umpteenth time that Michael Brown was unarmed.
7
The racial tension is enflamed by unbalanced reporting. The New York Times refers to a "series of fatal shooting of unarmed African American men," but never reports that police also shoot unarmed white men. During the week Michael Brown was killed, police officers in Dallas and Salt Lake City shot two unarmed white men. A USA Today study conducted after the Brown shooting revealed that on average white police officers each year kill about 400 people, including about 96 African Americans. This means that about 24 percent of those killed by white police officers are black. It also means that about 76.5 percent of people killed by white police officers are not black, but you would never know that from reading the New York Times. African Americans make up about 13 percent of the population, but the racial disparity in fatal police shootings is smaller than the racial disparity in arrests. According to FBI Uniform Crime Report, blacks made up 38.7 percent of those arrested for violent crimes, including 52.3 percent of those arrested for murder or manslaughter and 56.4 percent of those arrested for robbery. Another pertinent statistic is that the FBI Uniform Crime Report (Table 44 Law Enforcement Officers Feloniously Killed) shows that blacks murdered at 43 percent of the 565 police officers who were murdered in the line of duty from 2004 through 2013. So the racial disparity in police shootings is less than one would expect considering the racial disparity in crimes committed.
43
Unarmed white men being shot is the true secret problem in American law enforcement.
Even though cliven Bundy waged an operated tax rebellion and lived.
Even though cliven Bundy waged an operated tax rebellion and lived.
of course, whites vastly outnumber blacks in the US population.
1
A very unfortunate consequence of the proliferation of guns in our country is a police officers fear that he/she could be shot at any time. The real answer to unjustified shootings by police is to disarm them, but given the gun happy climate, its not realistic. Better training and screening of candidates and clear policies seems the only option for now. Of course, the politicians could help by helping to address the economic and societal issues that impact crime so heavily and by standing up to the NRA, but that's a bit like asking for peace in the middle east.
4
Too many of our politicians lack the courage to stand up to the NRA. thid ultimately reflects on us, the citizens.
1
If the rank and file officers don't accept the policing model imposed by their superiors, why do they keep their jobs? One of the problems in making changes to how police work is done is that there are repeat offenders among the officers whose offenses are covered up or minimized by their squads. I understand that the sense of brotherhood is important in a dangerous profession, but the refusal to call out bad or unprofessional officers is doing no one any favors. Certainly not the majority of well-meaning policemen.
12
I have not seen the Philadelphia police contract, but I am guessing that it (like almost all police bargaining contracts) makes it extremely difficult to fire officers, a difficulty which is compounded by the brotherhood's wall of silence. The wall of silence is difficult to stand up to or change, even for very well-meaning officers, as most of them are. And modifying the bargaining contract would be another huge lift. Unhappy police officers can cause great disruption--just look at the NYPD slowdown in December after the murders of officers Liu and Ramos.
3
I agree with you, but don't underestimate the revenge of the blue wall. Reference what happened to former NYPD officer Frank Serpico when he "called out" the bad/unprofessional officers. More recently you should reference what happened to NYPD officer Adrian Schoolcraft.
It should be very rare for a cop to fire his weapon.
Why do we see so much of that now?
The cops have developed the incorrect idea that THEY are the ones to be served and respected. Wrong! They are to serve and respect the citizens, their employers, and do the least invasive job they can to maintain order.
One soutce of the trouble is that many cops are army veterans. While it is a nice idea to help vets get a job, they are the wrong ones for this job.
After months in Iraq in a violent environmemt where danger lurked around every corner, the instinct to turn and shoot is strong and deep.
To police a crowded city with diverse citizens, we need people with more patience, more caution, and who are much slower on the draw.
Why do we see so much of that now?
The cops have developed the incorrect idea that THEY are the ones to be served and respected. Wrong! They are to serve and respect the citizens, their employers, and do the least invasive job they can to maintain order.
One soutce of the trouble is that many cops are army veterans. While it is a nice idea to help vets get a job, they are the wrong ones for this job.
After months in Iraq in a violent environmemt where danger lurked around every corner, the instinct to turn and shoot is strong and deep.
To police a crowded city with diverse citizens, we need people with more patience, more caution, and who are much slower on the draw.
30
@ mike - "It should be very rare for a cop to fire his weapon."
It should be very rare for a citizen to disobey the police when they are acting in their official capacity. It should be very rare for a citizen to fight the police when they are trying to make an arrest. It should be very rare for a citizen to use deadly force against the police. It should be but it's not!
"To police a crowded city with diverse citizens, we need people with more patience, more caution, and who are much slower on the draw."
By "diverse citizens" do you mean those who don't believe the law applies to them?
It should be very rare for a citizen to disobey the police when they are acting in their official capacity. It should be very rare for a citizen to fight the police when they are trying to make an arrest. It should be very rare for a citizen to use deadly force against the police. It should be but it's not!
"To police a crowded city with diverse citizens, we need people with more patience, more caution, and who are much slower on the draw."
By "diverse citizens" do you mean those who don't believe the law applies to them?
24
It is very rare for a cop to fire his weapon and most cops retired without ever having fired their weapons. Police make about 12 million arrests each year. About 400 of these arrests result in police inflicted fatalities. So, about 0.002 of each year’s result in police-inflicted fatalities. A smaller prevent of fatal police shootings are truly controversial. In 2013, the FBI collected assault data from 11,468 law enforcement agencies that employed 533,895 officers. These law enforcement agencies reported that 27 law enforcement officers were murdered and 49,851 officers were assaulted while performing their duties in 2013. Officers almost never fire their weapons, even when they are being assaulted.
21
Interesting. What sources are you quoting to come up with this statement that Vets shoot more folks than non Vets???
4
A great example that "unarmed" does not mean non-violent....
9
I remember a Philadelphia Police Commissioner who thrived on distrust, prejudice and persecution towards the African American community. He used SWAT teams and snipers on roof tops to maintain "Law and Order" (the stop and frisk initiative at the time.)
3
I lived in Philadelphia during this time and remember one summer night near 21st st. Fairmount Ave. seeing two police buses, with blinking lights but no sirens , pull up to a corner cheesesteak spot. Over 100 fully armed cops casually exited and hung out while eating their cheesesteaks ...it was surreal.
1
What I am getting from a lot of these incidents is that the police are too trigger happy. There should be a rule that they only fire when fired upon or are otherwise attacked in a dangerous situation. Even in Vietnam, we could not fire our weapons indiscriminately. Conversely, there are going to be more incidents in minority neighborhoods because of the heightened crime requiring an increase police presence. All are punished.
5
Actually, even people who actually physically assaults a police officer runs virtually zero chance of being killed by a police officer. Police make about 12 million arrests each year. About 400 of the arrests result in police inflicted fatalities. So, about 0.002 of each year’s arrest result in police-inflicted fatalities. In 2013, the FBI collected assault data from 11,468 law enforcement agencies that employed 533,895 officers. These law enforcement agencies reported that 27 law enforcement officers were murdered and 49,851 officers were assaulted while performing their duties in 2013. So, about 0.8 percent of assaults on police officers result in fatalities.
12
You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but facts and statistics do not support any notion of "trigger happy" law enforcement. That is a myth, perpetuated by the uninformed and those seeking an anti-law enforcement agenda. The sooner we dispel myth and peel back the layers to get to the facts, law enforcement is incredibly tolerant, trained and reluctant to use a firearm. See the excellent commentary by William Case in this section - he provides the statistics.
2
Really? Like the 12 year old in Cleveland or the innocent killed in a dark Brooklyn stairwell or the man shot in the back of the head in Philadelphia or the questionable shooting in Milwaukee? I am not anti police, much the opposite, but there are too many unjustifiable or questionable shootings going on which confirms my observation of some police being 'trigger happy'.
3
It is bewildering to me that next-to-no discussion of the poor police & minority community interaction ever mentions the 3rd ugly party-organized criminal networks maybe better armed than the police operating within & between communities. These networks may be of & are ofany ethnicity &/or race. They specialize in every type of criminal activity-drugs,gun running,prostitution,porno,child porn,credit card scam,loan sharking,human trafficking,gambling,if I left anything out then please just add it. Long overdue to stop romanticizing the criminal..time to start seeing what they do to communities
15
In another article in today's paper you report on the veto in West Virginia of a bill allowing gun owners to carry weapons without first having obtained a permit.
This bill was also opposed by the police and 80% of the citizens of that state.
Until the police takes a public stand against the proliferation of guns in our society they will continue to act aggressively, fearing an armed encounter.
Our gun culture is the cause and and police aggression is the effect.
We have a country which is much safer then the rest of the world, yet we live in fear and think having a firearm will protect us when statistics show that having a gun in the house increases the chances of violence, be it suicide or accidental shooting. We are a young country and need to grow out of the idea that we can shoot our way out of trouble.
This bill was also opposed by the police and 80% of the citizens of that state.
Until the police takes a public stand against the proliferation of guns in our society they will continue to act aggressively, fearing an armed encounter.
Our gun culture is the cause and and police aggression is the effect.
We have a country which is much safer then the rest of the world, yet we live in fear and think having a firearm will protect us when statistics show that having a gun in the house increases the chances of violence, be it suicide or accidental shooting. We are a young country and need to grow out of the idea that we can shoot our way out of trouble.
6
@ OM HINTON - "Our gun culture is the cause and and police aggression is the effect."
Correction, our ILLEGAL gun culture is the cause. More laws will certainly NOT effect the criminals ability to obtain guns, see prohibition and "war on drugs." Criminals will continue to violate gun laws until the culture of "poor equals crime is fine" is removed from our society.
Correction, our ILLEGAL gun culture is the cause. More laws will certainly NOT effect the criminals ability to obtain guns, see prohibition and "war on drugs." Criminals will continue to violate gun laws until the culture of "poor equals crime is fine" is removed from our society.
14
Twice as many children drown in swimming pools as are injured with guns in this country and more folks commit suicide in gun free Japan than here. Also, if you separate gun violence statistics by race, you will find that the crime rate that involve guns in this country are not very high anywhere except in black on black, unwed, sigle parent dominated (Democrat dominated) communities.
8
Exactly. It is the ILLEGAL gun culture, not the law-abiding, right-to-carry citizenry. And for those who blame the NRA, the NRA is very much against the ILLEGAL gun culture, i.e., the criminal element. Pass more laws, the criminal element will not abide; only law-abiding citizens are affected.
1
It is not more training or rule adjustments that will solve the problem. A percentage of men ( I mean men) who are attracted to becoming a police officer have psychological problems. They have strong authoritarian personalities, low self esteem and anger at not being able to control how our culture changes (i.e. white rage). They seek out this type of job to try to control what they can't. There should be well modeled and effective psychological testing to weed out this type of recruit before they are hired and this should be required in all departments, whether local or state.
39
And when, as the article states, the police and justice departments are run by blacks and the crime and punishment statistics are the same, then what theories do you propose?
4
Critical evaluation of the philosophy and application of "policing" is needed. Most problems seem to come from post crime or perceived post crime penalty enforcement rather than assuring that people are behaving "properly"
This police behavior stems from the excessive militarization of our police forces after the 9/11 terrorist attack. SWAT teams are now in place, paramilitary training has been rolled out in local policing, and excess military equipment from the Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts has made its way into our cities. We have overreacted and armed ourselves to the teeth against nebulous terrorist threats courtesy of the "defense" industry which has profited handsomely. Need to keep the proletariate in its place.
14
In Philadelphia, this police behavior may also stem from the fact that, since 2007, 8 police officers have been slain while on duty (three others were killed while off-duty). A number of other officers have taken bullets, or otherwise been injured, but survived.
9
It is sad that policing has become somewhat extreme. Ramsey is now moving in the correct direction. What remains to be seen is how the wider issues are tackled. Yes it is important to fix each problem on its own terms - like fixing policing. It is also important to address the issues that lead to increased violent crime. They are not difficult to identify - easy access to guns and ammunition, socioeconomic marginalization of certain communities and racial biases. Fixing these or at least moving in a direction that minimizes the impact of such factors is critical in addition to fixing the police force.
17
Peace: This piece also mentions, but doesn't highlight, that racial biases against young black men can be held by anyone, including older black men.
4
To all the persons who think it is easy to buy a gun legally. I'd like you to try to buy one and see just how difficult it is. My state, North Carolina requires a background check before issuance of a permit to buy. To get a Concealed carry Permit requires and even deeper background check. Each of these checks takes 2-3 months and you pay for the background check. Most states follow the same procedures. The CCP is valid for five years and you must undergo the same procedures in order to renew it. In Addition, if oyu are arrested for a felony or for domestic abuse your permit is suspended and you must turn in your weapons. Not so easy, huh?
1
@NYHuguenot - I'm afraid that's just not true in most states in the US. The issue is availability and making deadly weapons as easily available as aspirin means that it is too easy for guns to fall into the wrong hands.
Here are some reports on just how easy it is to get hold of a gun legally:
"However in most states, there is a perfectly legal second option: Buying a gun from a private seller"
from:
http://kellianderson.com/blog/2013/03/buying-a-gun-in-america/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/09/children-easy-acces...
Here are some reports on just how easy it is to get hold of a gun legally:
"However in most states, there is a perfectly legal second option: Buying a gun from a private seller"
from:
http://kellianderson.com/blog/2013/03/buying-a-gun-in-america/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/09/children-easy-acces...