Read the documents on the founding of the state of Virginia by Jefferson and you'll see that that the church/state separation the founders had in mind wasn't intended to oppress religion but to allow it its own space and prevent any one religion from dominating or being forced on citizens. Instead here, what we're seeing is in fact a religion's--the ACLU's--attempt to dominate the public sphere by systematically eliminating anybody with faith. There is no such thing as a neutral state. If a state chooses to eliminate and oppress religion then the state is setting itself up as a "religion," i.e., an all-encompassing worldview that it forces people to ascribe to. Bravo to the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and any other believers who refuse to allow this to happen. Bravo to Mr. DeBlasio for recognizing what an actual democracy is and what the constitution intended.
5
A strange crop of liberals we are growing these days. Which part of the First Amendment has missed his notice. State sponsored prayer breaks in school and allowing any religion to engage in a procedure that has killed children because of the power of a religious group creates special privileges on the basis of religion and provides a gloss of establishment when public schools identify praryer times. individuals who seek to have their children engage in school sponsored prayers should send them to PRIVATELY FUNDED SCHOOLS. The theocrats are all the move world over and humans are at risk.
3
Perhaps the Mayor would be better off warning his son about the evils of organized religion than against the police officers, who overwhelmingly serve us exceptionally. He gets it wrong again. Against the police, the blizzard that never happened, and now his pal the Cardinal. A one term Mayor I hope.
2
What could possibly go wrong with this?
1
Religion is a delusion. Delusions are dangerous. Religion is dangerous. Check the history books and other facts. J&G you are right to think Relgions and Religious minded people are narrow minded. So Del Blasio has two problems. First, he has to narrow his mind. Not easy when one is smart. Second, he is holding up a fantasy. As my friends say, "Why not celebrate Zeus". He is my personal god favorite.
3
Well, I think that anyone who invest themselves in the idea that the world began 6000 years ago, created by a genie god, in 6 days, and sent a son to a virgin mother, who died horribly but came back to life, after 3 days, may not be taking their medication, as they should. Dear me, how can we trust anyone who still thinks this stuff is irrefutable fact? If you do believe it, it would be better if you kept it to yourselves. I'll never vote for anyone who has to tell me about his/her religion, or who intentionally, publicly pursues religious groups and big wigs.
3
I don't know why. Religion is at the heart of 90% of the world's conflicts ("my club is better than your club and to prove it I'm going to kill or maim you"). Most religions claim to be spiritual, but from a practical view are about as far from true spirituality as you can imagine. I was raised in a very religious household, but these days I am more and more inspired by the John Lennon view: "imagine no religion ...". Or as Woody Allen once said, "If Jesus ever came back and saw what was being done in his name, he would never stop throwing up".
3
Strange - because NYC - despite being seen as "godless" is full of churches - mosques - synagogues - Hindu temples etc. NY doesn't have religious wars...
4
So, Mr de Blasio has realized that 'religious' people are citizens too.
Good for him.
Good for him.
2
Religious people have always been visible and in power. It's not as though an oppressed group has finally been recognized by an enlightened Mayor.
There are 50 million celebratory parades, days off, recognition months, festivals , and other sorts of "inclusion" apparatuses employed to make everyone happy.
There are 50 million celebratory parades, days off, recognition months, festivals , and other sorts of "inclusion" apparatuses employed to make everyone happy.
Hopefully, he will be out soon, as we wait for Obama to be out!
2
What on earth is Mayor de Blasio thinking of? His intrusion into religious matters can only be divisive, can only erode religious freedom and church-state separation, can only undermine the good he has been doing. This catering to religious conservatives (who didn't vote for him anyway) is peculiar at a time when church/synagogue membership is shrinking and more and more people are becoming "nones". -- Edd Doerr (arlinc.org)
1
DeBlasio is an "inclusive" liberal regarding people of faith; would that other liberals took the same view. Wonderful for the NYT to admit liberals practice little tolerance toward organized religions.
4
He's a politician with a rising crime/violence rate, failing school & pre-Ksystem, etc that's is why he's into the religion angle
4
A strange crop of liberals we are growing these days!
1
It is disappointing to see Ms. Wiley, the Mayor's counsel, be so flippant civil liberty concerns.
Given her training and position there can be no doubt that she is aware that the courts and US Congress have held/created Christmas to be a secular national holiday coterminous with the Christian religious observance. There can likewise be no doubt that she is aware that the city has specifically advanced for many years secular justification for cling on Easter and on Jewish holidays (to whit: recognition of the practical impact on instruction of such a huge percentage of students being absent).
So why does she snakily cite such disingenuous examples rather then address the merits of the concern. Really very disappointing.
Given her training and position there can be no doubt that she is aware that the courts and US Congress have held/created Christmas to be a secular national holiday coterminous with the Christian religious observance. There can likewise be no doubt that she is aware that the city has specifically advanced for many years secular justification for cling on Easter and on Jewish holidays (to whit: recognition of the practical impact on instruction of such a huge percentage of students being absent).
So why does she snakily cite such disingenuous examples rather then address the merits of the concern. Really very disappointing.
4
How about a holiday for the Atheists to celebrate their freedom FROM religion.
8
That exists everyday already
3
Renting out public school buildings as houses of worship, allowing pre-K contractors to insert religion into the curriculum, have mid-day prayers, and give hiring preference to practitioners of certain faiths, -- this has nothing to do with inclusive practices for our city which depend upon having a neutral zone in which to operate. Rather, it is market segmentation for the political gain of the mayor in his next election campaign. It will only fragment our city further. It will do neighborhood religious institutions no good either as many depend on the income of their space rentals to other religious groups.
16
That being said....Why are you always LATE?
3
The use of any publicly-supported facilities - schools, parks, etc - by religious groups for religious ritual and services is, to my mind, a subtle form of proselytizing. It should be prohibited. On the other hand, if religious groups want to run a camp open to all children without discrimination for any reason and solely for secular activities or if they want to sponsor a lecture open to all without discrimination, then they should not be prohibited from the use of public facilities. I think a competent lawyer could craft regulations that meet those criteria.
3
Although I dislike the term "proselytizing", I don't think it's subtle at all. Most religious groups seek converts, and it is their right to do so. While it may be unconstitutional to subsidize them in doing so, it is also unconstitutional to discriminate against them for doing so. Whether allowing a 'prayer break' during a publicly-funded activity is a case of subsidizing or not is the constitutional question at hand. Whether or not a religous group can use a public school building if other non-curricular groups are allowed to use it is a settled issue. Religious people cannot be discriminated against in that manner.
1
While I am certainly highly cautious about the merging of politics and religion, I do feel that people of all (reasonable) beliefs and non-beliefs should be heard and accommodated in a reasonable fashion. I feel that the major is on the right track. Can't say the same for some other states or what is happening on a national level.
2
Note to counsel (Maya Wiley):
Christmas is a federal holiday. Closures ensue. Easter, as even this Jew knows, falls on a Sunday. So, again, what is yor planned defense to the imminent constitutional challenge to the mayor's religious-based policy? Think "compelling givernment interest," (if not career change).
Christmas is a federal holiday. Closures ensue. Easter, as even this Jew knows, falls on a Sunday. So, again, what is yor planned defense to the imminent constitutional challenge to the mayor's religious-based policy? Think "compelling givernment interest," (if not career change).
5
the fundamentalist exec director of agudath israel says he has a 'friend' in city hall...
well, there you go! so much for de blasio...
well, there you go! so much for de blasio...
1
In this environment, closing your doors for two Muslim holidays doesn't make you religious, it makes you politically correct and puts you in the company of the President.
2
What about Christmas? How is it that "closing your doors" on this religious holiday makes anyone religious. And where is the holiday for American atheists, especially those who died fighting for freedom for people of "faith?" Thomas Paine Day or Charles Darwin Day or Bertrand Russell Day. I realize that the last two were clearly not Americans, but then neither was Jesus Christ or Moses or the Prophet M or the Buddha. Oh, and what about religious correctness? The doctrine of neutrality currently endorse by the SCOTUS is to secular citizens what the Blaine Amendment was to Catholics in the 19th century -- a strategy for ensuring that a minority has unequal political power.
Wow. I am quite taken aback by the cynicism and objection to the Mayor's willingness to engage New Yorkers of faith, which I think is admirable. I live deep in the heart of Brooklyn where religious identity is everywhere. Orthodox Jees, West African churches, multiple masjid a, Tibetan Buddhists and every kind of Christian. I think it's completely appropriate that the Mayor and all New Yprkers, regardless of our own beliefs, are able and willing to engage with all of our neighbors of all faiths or no faith at all. This is not pandering but living into the rich diversity of belief and lifestyle that is New York.
12
Benjamin Franklin wrote over twp centuries ago that there is something wrong with any religion that has to have help from government. That;s why the US Founders separated church and state in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. -- Edd Doerr (arlinc.org)
3
Perhaps he could show up on time for Saint Patrick's day mass and not disrespect it with his tardiness. Jerk.
7
That was totally disrespectful on his part. He's offended numerous others over recent months with his lack of punctuality. I'm sure Mayors Bloomberg, Giuliani and Dinkins also had a "lot going on" and still managed to get where they were going on time. I wonder if at least part of the problem is with his handlers.
2
There is a separation of church and state for good reason, and he will soon learn that the very groups that he wishes to extend fairness to, are not as worried about fairness as he might be. Their goal is to spread religion over secular positions, and they will do so at every opportunity.
And by the way, has he considered what additional school holidays will do to working parents who will not receive the same day off from the workplace?
Mayor Bill means well, but may not be thinking this through.
And by the way, has he considered what additional school holidays will do to working parents who will not receive the same day off from the workplace?
Mayor Bill means well, but may not be thinking this through.
10
Mayor de Blasio can go to Mass everyday if he wants...even five times a day if he wishes. However, his actions of wanting a prayer break for pre-kindergardeners is clearly unconstitutional as is having church-related services on school property. Both show a clear preference for organized religion and would be intimidating to school children. Further, declaring two Muslim school holidays is also without legal basis. In the 1950s, Yom Kippur and Roshashana were added to NYC school holidays because so many of the public school teachers were Jewish and the difficulty and cost of securing substitutes for those days was not worth the cost. I do not believe that such a significant of public school teachers are Muslim nor is the Muslim population of the City as yet sufficient to warrant treatment over, for example, Hindus. The Mayor should honor his oath to the Constitution and respect the secular and the entire nonsecular population of the city instead of pandering to the highly devout.
8
It is clearly unconstitutional to discriminate against religious groups in the use of public buildings if those buildings are allowed to be used by other non-curricular groups.
5
Gee a champion of religion? Really? If that means a champion of the vote, then I totally agree. He is trying to corner the Jewish vote with this and that is plain and simple. If he really wishes to embrace all the religions of this city then why did he not once again march in the St. Patrick's Day parade this past Tuesday in Manhattan? Yes he marched in the Queens parade which is a fine one to watch, but Manhattan is the main event. I totally agree the parade needs to be more inclusive, without it becoming political. And I am a Catholic, but if he is a champion of religion I think he would have marched seeing as finally an openly gay group marched. But he didn't. It speaks volumes to me and many others about his feelings. As I said I may not agree with the parade committee but the courts have upheld their right to exclude marchers.
But our Mayor isn't courting the votes of the white middle class Catholics which is shrinking even further because of his administrations neglect of the middle class in general in this city. That isn't who he represents.
A very transparent play for votes Mr. Mayor. Progressive my behind, socialist is more better an adjective for him, but in general he's just another not so slick politician. And it will be remembered when he runs for re-election.
But our Mayor isn't courting the votes of the white middle class Catholics which is shrinking even further because of his administrations neglect of the middle class in general in this city. That isn't who he represents.
A very transparent play for votes Mr. Mayor. Progressive my behind, socialist is more better an adjective for him, but in general he's just another not so slick politician. And it will be remembered when he runs for re-election.
2
He has the best tools for being open to all religions in treating them fairly and with respect. Many times a person in his position who has a religious history will not have the tolerance for different thinking. I believe in time Mayor de Blasio will be evaluated as one of our better mayors. He is blue collar which is a plus...
2
He is most definitely NOT blue collar. Where did you ever get that idea?
1
I can certainly understand Mayor de Blasio's friendliness toward religion. The way things are going with his administration, he'd best be praying a lot for his re-election.
9
He will need a miracle.
1
That's great! That's a great step Mr . de Blasio. Yeah, we really need God on those days. HONOR AND GLORY TO GOD
1
I like this part about the mayor--“If you are going to understand the community and the city, you have to understand how deeply faithful people are, and how central it is to people in their lives,” he said. That is right on Mr. De Blasio
4
DeBlasio must enjoy lawsuits because he is going to be prompting them with this pandering.
4
All de Blasio is doing is allowing religion to occupy the public space, not force it on anyone.
Donna Lieberman, on the other hand, believes that "tolerance" means confining religion underground.
I am glad that de Blasio realizes that religion can have a positive influence on society.
Donna Lieberman, on the other hand, believes that "tolerance" means confining religion underground.
I am glad that de Blasio realizes that religion can have a positive influence on society.
13
Tolerance means not interfering or supporting or becoming entangled in religion.
4
Tolerance means allowing things you disagree with.
2
And I thought I didn't like him as a mayor before. Yikes.
8
To me, Bloomberg got it exactly right: NYC's school kids do not need fewer days in school.
But if you're going to give the Muslims two days, then you certainly must give the Hindus and Buddhists theirs as well.
But if you're going to give the Muslims two days, then you certainly must give the Hindus and Buddhists theirs as well.
22
Another politician who succumbed to the pressure of religious bigots. Another pathetic iffy washy character who cannot be trusted because he doesn't have the courage to hold on of his own convictions. Politicians are making fools of themselves changing religions like they're changing their clothes. Meanwhile, the new generation of Americans is moving away from religion in huge numbers. Religions are decisive, there only success is to pit religious groups against each other. They have not learned a thing from the past. Religion is not unifying, it divides and offends. Wearing it on one's sleeves does nothing but perpetuate identifying individuals on a single attribute, before anyone has a chance to really know who they are. When I see people displaying their religious symbols in bold ways I tend to stay away from them because I assume that they might be very narrow minded even if I may be wrong. The first impression carries a lot of weight.
27
As much as I hoped DeBlasio would be an honest progressive voice in office Mayor what I'm seeing is blatant pandering to religious groups. Where we should see a firm stand that keeps government secular he seems to feel that he can be all things to all people all the time. As a progressive I saw the whole issue surrounding traditional circumcision practices among some of the ultra-Orthodox community as DeBlasio sacrificing the most helpless for votes. Every single child that dies a avoidable death because he legitimized that practice is on him. If the parents and the religious community that they're part of won't protect that child - then that is exactly where Government belongs. Not condemning that and other practices is the same as endorsing. Giving up to all the chaos of trying to satisfy all religious groups simultaneously is, I think, impossible. If anything it makes it even more critical that religions in a city like NY not be part of the governing equation at all - at least not in how the City governs itself. While he may honestly be trying to be all things I suspect that in the end he will wind up be nothing to nobody and that's a shame because had such potential.
9
One might guess that the Mayor is comingling government and religion for political gain. Does promotion of any religion face a US Constitution test?
8
What is any politician or elected public official doing championing religion? Definitely NOT part of the job.
18
So many of the comments here show the stereotype of progressives being the most intolerant of all is not a stereotype at all. Many (not all) progressives are so in hate with religion that it is excluded from their view of inclusion. Yet another example of the hypocrisy of those on the left.
18
William Buckley said it best:
"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views."
That is why secular liberals claim to be open-minded at the same time they want to censor religion.
"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views."
That is why secular liberals claim to be open-minded at the same time they want to censor religion.
11
William Buckley was George Wallace with a refined accent. What good things did he ever support. He questioned the 1964 Civil Rights Act. That seems like a pretty reasonable piece of legislation. However, he sympathized with the "States's rights" position.
Had he not been a right winger from Yale who played the harpsichord on his spare time he would be just another right wing Republican nut.
Like his fellow Republicans of his era, he was wrong about everything.
Had he not been a right winger from Yale who played the harpsichord on his spare time he would be just another right wing Republican nut.
Like his fellow Republicans of his era, he was wrong about everything.
3
@garth, @surgres: Really? I'm a secular liberal who is very happy to make space for religious groups and other subcultures to do their thing. E pluribus unum. It's not relevant that personally I might admire some of a group's practices or political positions, while disliking others. Obviously I reserve the right to argue back if they publicly attack things that I hold dear. But they have the same right to argue for their positions, and a right to be left alone to practice their beliefs. We are a society, not a monoculture.
It's all fine as long as no one gets hurt. What counts as getting hurt, though? It's tricky to define that boundary between private practice and the public interest when they come into conflict. But everything in this news article is just quibbling about the appropriate boundary. Please don't mistake that for some kind of broader liberal attempt to suppress religion.
It's all fine as long as no one gets hurt. What counts as getting hurt, though? It's tricky to define that boundary between private practice and the public interest when they come into conflict. But everything in this news article is just quibbling about the appropriate boundary. Please don't mistake that for some kind of broader liberal attempt to suppress religion.
1
Supreme Court ruled back in the 1960's that closing schools on a religious holiday is OK as long as it's for a secular purpose, e.g.., to prevent extreme levels of absence. The schools already privilege Chirstianity by closing schools on Sundays and for breaks that always include Xmas & Easter. This just levels the playing field a little, like suspending alternate-side parking. They don't close on Buddhist holidays just because there aren't very many Buddhists in NYC.
3
I remember that as a boy the entire New York City school system was shut down on Jewish Holy Days. That's because so many of the teachers were Jewish and there weren't enough substitutes to cover the days. From Kindergarten to sixth grade my teachers were Mrs. Goldstein, Mrs. Vexler, Mrs. Claus, Mrs. Kopp, Mrs. Rothstein and Mrs. Herman. There other teachers as well. The Principal was Mrs Scharf who had been my Mother's History teacher at PS 85 many years ago. There's no way PS 86 could have remained open with that many teacher absences.
5
This pandering to religious groups, and especially the privileging of some religious groups over others, is absolutely vile. The violent behavior of some adherents of Islam have actually led to greater pandering by politicians keen on proving their "tolerance." Why not Hindus and Buddhists, Mr. Bloomfield asks. Why not indeed? And why not atheists as well? Personal observance should have no place in modern policy. Those wishing to be observant are welcome to take the day off---and must be asked to make it up on another day.
22
I am not one of the many secular readers of the NY Times, and dislike the militant atheist movement of the past 20 years in American culture. The far left demonizing religions as a basis for man's violence, greed and stupidity is its own kind of secular creed, and one no more tolerant, or thoughtful than the far right Christians these rationalist liberals despise with such fury.
As a politician, and not a very good one, I see his actions re religious groups as part of his attempts at political coalition building. If he were better at this sort of thing, he would realize that most of his constituents don't embrace religion, and especially aren't predisposed to embracing the Muslim faith with much fervor after 9/11. Spending political capital on such efforts is a waste of his time and energies, which seem to be considerable.
Why he continues to appear in front of police and corrections officers events and functions is a good example of how aggressive and tone-deaf he is as a politician. These groups don't like him as a whole and won't be fooled into believing he has their best interests at heart. He should send subordinates to these events, or skip some of them entirely. Over and over again, his actions show a politically stupid man who will be lucky to finish out one term as mayor without being asked to resign after some bone-headed scandal his actions have helped bring about.
13
Mr. Robin P Little, I will accept your epithet of "militant" to describe atheists when atheists bring about bloody wars to convert people to their belief. Till then, I daresay that world history - up to the present day - clearly shows who among us are the militants.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
8
bravo rev!!!
4
@Rev. E.M. Camarena, Ph.D in Hells Kitchen, NYC: scientism, a near-mystical belief in the power of rational thought, is the religion of many rationalist atheists. Science and its related field, technology, have made waging wars much more costly since the rise of advanced weaponry. New war technologies have killed more people in a shorter period of time than all the religious wars in history combined. Religion isn't the cause of man's depravity. Man is.
4
This guy is such an overall disappointment and now this. The Constitution specifically states there will be a separation of religion from the state and vice versa. De Blasio is one in a long line of politicians opening the door to religion in the public arena. He will be a one term Mayor for many reasons and this is another one.
33
Let's look at these decisions:
1) allowing a mid-day break during school,
2) using religious schools to help expand an education initiative,
3) permitting religious organizations the same access to public spaces on other private organizations.
Please explain how any of those are harmful to anyone.
1) allowing a mid-day break during school,
2) using religious schools to help expand an education initiative,
3) permitting religious organizations the same access to public spaces on other private organizations.
Please explain how any of those are harmful to anyone.
7
It isn't as though the schools are being provided to the start up churches for free. They are charged rent the same as any other group that wants to use the space on weekends.
5
"Please explain how any of those are harmful to anyone."
Developmental psychology tells us that children want to belong when placed in peer group settings. Setting time aside for prayer in school therefore creates a coercive environment for the non-religious child. Quite harmful.
This is the problem with offering the initiative in religious schools - the "accommodation" to their demands is really an authorization for proselytizing on the public dime. Likewise, when a local church meets at my local public school to pray (and not just on weekends). They put up a big banner about it and about Jesus on the side of the building - a sure sign to many of us that it isn't equally our school, or our government.
Developmental psychology tells us that children want to belong when placed in peer group settings. Setting time aside for prayer in school therefore creates a coercive environment for the non-religious child. Quite harmful.
This is the problem with offering the initiative in religious schools - the "accommodation" to their demands is really an authorization for proselytizing on the public dime. Likewise, when a local church meets at my local public school to pray (and not just on weekends). They put up a big banner about it and about Jesus on the side of the building - a sure sign to many of us that it isn't equally our school, or our government.
2
Public policy has no business paying lip service or giving credibility to completely unsubstantiated claims that nature has a humanoid personality that responds to idolatry.
40
This is disappointing. We should be working hard to avoid the influence of religion on our lives. Acknowledge the special day if you must, but nothing more, else the worshippers of Odin or Quetzalcoatl too start demanding their own holidays, and then where will we be?
29
Mayor deBlasio is doing a great job , keeping campaign promises like the pre-K and after-school programs, increasing affordable housing in new real estate developments, and trying to deal with so many, competing constituencies. So why the absurd headline to this article--playing on an equally shoddy stereotype that progressives are anti-religious?
I like the fact that deBlasio is unapologetic about his lack of religiosity, and does not indulge in a hypocritical charade.
I like the fact that deBlasio is unapologetic about his lack of religiosity, and does not indulge in a hypocritical charade.
6
Progressivism has everything to do with inclusion and diversity and respect. Not surprising at all for Mayor Bill. The trick is maintaining a separation of church and state, the absence of which is a pernicious goal of conservatives.
20
"The trick is maintaining a separation of church and state, the absence of which is a pernicious goal of conservatives."
I don't understand why think the advancement of that goal is any less alarming when carried of by progressives for their own reason.
I don't understand why think the advancement of that goal is any less alarming when carried of by progressives for their own reason.
That "Progressives" are irreligious is a canard. The Mayor is a shinning example of what it means to be American.
7
Religion is a reality in this town, for better or worse. Any mayor of New York knows this and cannot bury his/her head in the sand. The story is that all the mayors kept a yarmulke in their pocket for emergency appearances. And let's not forget the over-the-top "chumminess" between Mayor Koch and Cardinal O'Connor. The constitutional key is to treat all religious groups equally and not promote any one above the others. Till the world outgrows religion, this is how it is.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
2
Imagine, a politician pandering for votes among the citizenry. Is anyone surprised that di Blasio is a political animal who wants happy constituents and supportive voters? If the facts of this article are correct, it is apparent that the mayor is overreaching and insinuating the city into a position where it is expressly supporting religious doctrines. If people feel the need to pray they can do it at home, in church, or quietly in their heads (I'm sure the invisible sky daddy knows what you are thinking). Using public school time and pubic school space for "prayer meetings" is violative of the separation of church and state - unless of course you want to pander to religious groups, in which case you can ignore the Constitution [sarcasm].
24
When they pay to rent the school space as any other group I fail to see any promotion of religion. Would renting to other groups mean that the city is promoting their agenda?
4
Yes, it is a problem when a public school - the local area's premier symbol of the government and equality - is festooned by banners proclaiming Jesus. (And as a New Yorker who actually sees to let me add: not just on Weekends.)
It is also a problem when many of the schools would prefer not to be open at all but are only open to "any other group" to give cover to the churches who have successfully lobbied politicians and officials to keep them open on weekends - often at a loss since the "rent" doesn't cover the expense.
It is also a problem when many of the schools would prefer not to be open at all but are only open to "any other group" to give cover to the churches who have successfully lobbied politicians and officials to keep them open on weekends - often at a loss since the "rent" doesn't cover the expense.
• In Mr. de Blasio’s New York, public prekindergarten classes will soon be able to include a midday break for observant students to pray. Schools will be closed citywide for two Muslim holy days. And the mayor says he is intent on finding a way for church groups to continue holding services in public schools on weekends, even as the United States Supreme Court considers taking up a case as early as next week on whether the city has the right to prohibit the practice.
"Don't pray in my school and i won't think in your church." ~ Author Unknown
"Don't pray in my school and i won't think in your church." ~ Author Unknown
33
I voted for de Blasio but this is simply pandering! Easing rules on herpes virus spreading circumcision practices of Ultra-Orthodox Jews is a good example.
41
I didn't vote for de Blassio. I moved out of New York City due to Bloomberg's pandering to gentrifiers. I moved out of the States for America's politicians pandering to the religious right.
2
Religion and any practice of spirituality has no place in NY City public programs. This mayor's behavior is inexcusable. Shame on him and all who allow this to persist.
40
Our "progressive" Mayor needs to understand what separation of church and state means. It's in the Constitution-read it!!!
30
Maybe you should read the constitution, and a couple centuries of legal decisions, as well.
4
Helen will you do us all a favor and quote the part of the Constitution which mentions separation of church and state?
3
The Constitution has no provision calling for a separation of church and state. Only that the government is not to promote one church as the state church. Virginia still held the Episcopal Church to be the state church even after the Constitution was adopted. The government adopted a hands off approach to the church and the church does not tell the government how to run itself. The government's duty is to ensure that those who wish to worship can do so unimpeded. The church's influence is to provide moral people to be a part of government. Renting property to groups, even to a church is not promoting their agenda whether it is to the religious or to Atheists.
3
I'm not religious although I can respect people's beliefs so long as they understand that they have to respect my (non)belief equally. Having said that, IF I were mayor and were going to attend a mass at St. Patrick's with the Cardinal officiating one thing is for sure: I would be ON TIME! Showing up late shows a total lack of respect, period. He's a PANDERER.
16
DiBlasio will only embrace religion to the degree he can make it conform to his progressive politics.
3
De Blasio will embrace religion to the degree it supports him politically independently of any progressive agenda. He will do what it takes to stay in office.
2
Bravo Mayor de Blasio!! As a lifelong Progressive Democrat I applaud the Mayor's common sense. Schools are where we should learn that there are other people with other beliefs who are our nieghbors and the learning should continue beyond the school house. Recognizing different holidays based on religious traditions is just fine. Maybe the kids will learn something about the Muslim religion they didn't know. Maybe the families that get to use the schools for their religious ceremony will realize the importance of public education. Go for it Mayor!!
19
Schools are where we should learn how to read and write and schools fail to do even that.
Religious beliefs have no place in any public school.
Religious beliefs have no place in any public school.
19
I don't understand the "embracing of religious groups or treating them as adversaries". Why is either necessary, particularly in politics? We are a country founded on religious freedom, and our founders very wisely wanted church and state to remain separate. The only responsibility government has to religious groups is to make sure this freedom is protected, not to be its champion or to advance its causes.
31
Unfortunately, in a city as diverse as New York if you allow all religious groups (or even all major religious groups) equal time as far as school holidays, it begins to resemble the alternate-side parking cancellation calendar. The public libraries have taken an opposite approach: they close when the holiday is a legal holiday of the state. Yes, that does include Christmas (its being a legal holiday is another issue), but staff wishing to take off Good Friday, Yom Kippur, Chinese New Year, etc., etc. have to take it out of their own time. I wonder if the schools could do something similar--schools dominated by ethnic/religious group X, Y, or Z could close for the appropriate holidays without it being system-wide.
9
Give each student personal days to use as they wish.
5
I appreciate Mayor De Blasio's inclusiveness. But I'm not really certain that as a society we need to support anyone's irrational belief systems any more than we already do. Why give any wiggle room to "beliefs" that can't be supported by empirical evidence? Doesn't that just drag us all down?
7
For those who want Sharia law should go to Saudi, Bible laws to Vatican and no religion to China, so that we Americans can live here in peace.
4
Josh,
You completely invalidate your argument and prove the elitist mentality of atheists all in one comment. Good job representing the angry lost masses.
You completely invalidate your argument and prove the elitist mentality of atheists all in one comment. Good job representing the angry lost masses.
6
On 9/11 NYC was attacked by radical Islamic terrorists. I doubt few will argue that event left lasting scars on the psyche of Nrew Yorkers. Sadly that day also planted the seeds of suspisciion about Mulims in the heart of many citizens. Remember the outrage over the mosque close to Ground Zero? I find it refreshing that Di Blasio is recognizing the holy days of our Islamic brothers and sisters - to me it represents part of the healing process from that terrible day.
As usual, however, the rabid secularists are horrified.
As usual, however, the rabid secularists are horrified.
9
'...As usual, however, the rabid secularists are horrified...'
You mean the people who believe in the Bill Of Rights?
You mean the people who believe in the Bill Of Rights?
16
NM: You mean the nine amendments they like? Most would have the Second Amendment eliminated. I'm suspicious of their views on the First at times.
1
I'm not clear at all what secularism has to do with the Second Amendment. (What a peculiar way you Southerners have of looking at the world!). But I will say that n my experience the debate on the Second Amendment does not involve many people who want it eliminated. It is between those who hew to the traditional judicial interpretation of the clause to refer to organized state militias and those who embrace a quite recent more expansive view.
Basically, it hinges on issues like what sense the word "militia" was understood in at adoption and should be understood in today. To speak of people "eliminating" the amendment is misleading and hyperbolic. (Although I'm sure you didn't mean it to be so.)
Basically, it hinges on issues like what sense the word "militia" was understood in at adoption and should be understood in today. To speak of people "eliminating" the amendment is misleading and hyperbolic. (Although I'm sure you didn't mean it to be so.)
Yet another politician who has no regard for the principle and practice of "separation of church and state." Very disappointing, especially coming from a "progressive."
25
If he could only lead the way he schmoozes.
And leading includes showing up on time.
Worst NYC mayor in decades, since that other slippery politician Dinkins
And leading includes showing up on time.
Worst NYC mayor in decades, since that other slippery politician Dinkins
3
The left's hostile secularism has been to its and America's detriment, especially as the left abandoned economic issues and focussed on social issues. The American left's discomfort with religion can be traced in part to the 1920s and H. L. Mencken's writings about Democrat and populist progressive leader William Jennings Bryan, whom Mencken covered during the Scopes Monkey Trial. As Michael Kazin wrote in his biography of Bryan, Mencken's portrayal of a religious Bryan raised, "(t)he specter of a theocratic state run by idiots (which) has haunted secular intellectuals ever since." Bryan was against Scopes for a number of reasons, but a major one was Bryan's fear of the damage Social Darwinism could do. Social Darwinism now seems to be our national creed. Bryan's life was devoted to a different economic order. In his lifetime he was known as "the friend of the American masses," someone "who loved the laboring man," and was praised by Will Rogers as someone who will "conscientiously fight ... for plain people." Mencken fueled divides: religious/secular, urban/rural, that hurt progressive Democrats and our country to this day.
5
Looking at the current Republican party, Mencken's ideas hit very close to the mark. Apparently, not much has changed since Scopes. I bet half of Congress would welcome a theocratic state on some level. Bottom line: Religious belief has no place in government, including the public schools.
2
Very interesting approach Judy that makes a lot of sense but don't expect most folks here to follow what you wrote as it goes over their preconditioned heads.
1
Bryan was wrong about Scopes. Period. It's too bad he got entangled in that case.
1
This article and other recent articles that describe DeBlasio's courting of the Jewish Orthodox community have glossed over another important policy change he's made: the easing of restrictions on sending NYC special education students to yeshivas using public dollars. For years, NYC taxpayers have been paying private school tuition for students to attend these schools only after the parents have filed formal complaints and gone through the impartial hearing process. However, last summer, DeBlasio made changes that made it easier for families to obtain private school tuition. The major constituency to benefit from this policy change? The orthodox Jewish community, which had been lobbying for years to make it easier for students to attend religious special education schools at public expense. It is an issue that is not well documented and so it is unclear what portion of these taxpayer funded/subsidized programs are actually secular. While this policy shift may have improved DeBlasio's standing with this community, the long term implications of this are worrisome. When similar changes were made to more easily place students in East Ramapo in private special education schools, the State Education Department found fault with that district for regularly placed students with disabilities in private schools without first documenting that appropriate services were not available in public schools.
9
Religion in the public schools? Disaster deBlasio strikes again. Is there no end to this man's pandering?
12
Pandering does seem like the right word here. Why de Blasio needs to introduce religion into preschool is beyond me. I doubt it was the preschoolers themselves who asked for time off at lunch to pray, but rather their voting keepers. ANY time formally given to prayer in schools supported by public dollars is wrong. It has a chilling effect on every religious minority therein, not to mention on the rest of us who are uncomfortable parading our religiousity or lack of it in public, and who do not want our kids directed to pray during lunch at school. I can't imagine anything more confusing for a three-year-old from a non-religious home.
34
Good for the mayor and good for the city. I am not a religious person either, but my life is richer because of hearing the perspectives of religious people and seeing how they live. I think one of the fears (understandably) is that this will lead to religion being forced on those of us who don't want it--but the opposite may happen. For religious and non-religious alike, it may encourage visibility of belief systems other than our own. This could lead us to consider our own beliefs more thoughtfully, ask more questions, and find more commonality.
9
'...my life is richer because of hearing the perspectives of religious people...'
The perspectives of religious people are always the same (the True Faith is ours!), not much in that to feel 'richer' about.
The perspectives of religious people are always the same (the True Faith is ours!), not much in that to feel 'richer' about.
5
@NM
Maybe you should actually listen to religious people before you condemn them. All you are doing is attacking straw-men.
Maybe you should actually listen to religious people before you condemn them. All you are doing is attacking straw-men.
3
Anyone may find out about belief systems other than one's own by reading about them.
In general, non-believers have a higher level of understanding about the tenets of different religions than religious people. This was supported by Pew research .
What I find most irritating about evangelicals, for instance , is that as a non-believer, I usually know more about their religion than they do.
I would gain little knowledge by intermingling with the natives .
In general, non-believers have a higher level of understanding about the tenets of different religions than religious people. This was supported by Pew research .
What I find most irritating about evangelicals, for instance , is that as a non-believer, I usually know more about their religion than they do.
I would gain little knowledge by intermingling with the natives .
3
Though I'm not one of this Mayor's biggest fans (the whole infatuation with Mr. Sharpton and company), he gets a scholarly gold star on the state/church front. It is beyond cavil that many of his supporters use constitutional concerns to mask what is actually a seething animus toward religion in general. Why, they wonder, can't he be as dismissive and cold as we are to those uncool, unliberated folks who actually pray and do that other strange stuff?
His Honor actually sees the great mosaic that is NYC, in all of its messy, distinctive varied strands of civilization. No one is being compelled to do anything he rightly says. Schools rented out to secular groups for their group activities can be used by religious affiliated groups as well as long as they are not proselytizing third parties from the rented quarters. A most reasonable and fully constitutional balance. After all, contrary to his critics, the Constitution doesn't require hostility to faith or placing it where the atheist/agnostic/militant secularists would like, which is trampled underfoot or in a locked box.
His Honor actually sees the great mosaic that is NYC, in all of its messy, distinctive varied strands of civilization. No one is being compelled to do anything he rightly says. Schools rented out to secular groups for their group activities can be used by religious affiliated groups as well as long as they are not proselytizing third parties from the rented quarters. A most reasonable and fully constitutional balance. After all, contrary to his critics, the Constitution doesn't require hostility to faith or placing it where the atheist/agnostic/militant secularists would like, which is trampled underfoot or in a locked box.
10
It is both humorous and disingenuous that the "belief community" always lauds "balance" when they are getting taxpayer subsidies for their own religious activities, but they start screaming bloody murder when someone suggests that society ought to rethink the whole 'tax exempt status" thingy that is also a subsidy for religion. Their is nothing like overweening self-interest coupled with hypocrisy to show what the "belief community" truly believes in - "You owe me; I'm entitled.".
21
The Constitution requires neutrality about religions. No special tax breaks, no immunity from prosecution, no religious holidays...it is that even though religions have gotten all this and more, it is never enough.
Human nature, once people receive preferential treatment, they consider it an entitlement and demand even more.
Human nature, once people receive preferential treatment, they consider it an entitlement and demand even more.
13
Mayor de Blasio has a genuine concern for the range of New Yorkers and I find that just what is needed in a mayor. I find this mayor welcoming and helpful to all people who love New York City for its rich diversity.
29
The idea of an "observant prekindergarten student" is so absurd as to push into the boundaries of hilarity. How can a child under the age of 6 years have devout beliefs?
Do we label children with the political leanings of their parents? Do we speak of Republican or Democratic or Socialist or Conservative children? Of course not. Labeling children with the religious beliefs of their parents is one of the problems that we allow religion to get away with where we would otherwise double-take and say "huh?"
Do we label children with the political leanings of their parents? Do we speak of Republican or Democratic or Socialist or Conservative children? Of course not. Labeling children with the religious beliefs of their parents is one of the problems that we allow religion to get away with where we would otherwise double-take and say "huh?"
69
The student probably IS observant; her behavior observes halakhah. Not because she has "devout beliefs" but because that is how she has been taught to behave. And she is Jewish because she was born to a Jewish mother. (I think we can safely assume that.) Labelling her as an Orthodox Jew would be more problematic.
[We can all split hairs.]
[We can all split hairs.]
6
True, but every human could use some mindfulness time away from daily obligations and pressures. If they could structure such time to not be solely for indoctrinated practices but more for celebration of the creative and joyous spirit of life, I think it would be great. I'm all for separation of church and state, but being human gives us our inner awareness apart from all institutions. That's what I would encourage a child to do with that time.
1
As someone with Jewish ancestry but whose family hasn't practiced any form of religion for three generations (and who is himself an Atheist) I find the idea of inherited religion equally strange. Why should I be counted as Jewish just because my maternal grandmother believed in Judaism?
As far as observing religious practices - as far as I'm concerned children should be allowed to engage any religious rites during the school day that doesn't otherwise interfere with their studies or the studies of other students. That wasn't the point that I was trying to make.
As far as observing religious practices - as far as I'm concerned children should be allowed to engage any religious rites during the school day that doesn't otherwise interfere with their studies or the studies of other students. That wasn't the point that I was trying to make.
5
But I do believe he needs to be extremely careful in intermingling public, secular policy to embrace any of the various religions.
Here's one idea: instead of creating more religious holidays for everyone to celebrate, how about eliminating ALL religious holidays for the sake of secular purity and governmental objectivity. Then people in individual religions can celebrate their individual religious holidays by closing their shops, or staying out of school etc, while everyone else can enjoy public services etc. without undo disruption.
Everyone should have the right to practice Their religion, in my view, so long as IT or They don't impinge, intrude or impose Their religious"values" on the rest of us. By doing so, We can All live happily ever after.
In other words, the "fence" between religion and state is there for a reason:
"good fences make good neighbors".