And meanwhile, in the real world, middle-class families are just trying to help get their kids through an affordable undergraduate program because nowadays they're probably going to need grad school as well. I read about wrangling over "elite colleges" and shake my head. Am I supposed to pity these people?
34
I think the best way for all of us to survive the college admissions madness is to stop writing about the college admissions madness. To say it's OK to a kid who has essentially wiped out 3 years of their teenage life towards this goal is as as condescending a message as it can get. The less the successful ones are glorified and the those who don't make it are given the runner up prize of something equivalent to "at least you have your youth and health" the better.
12
Thank you for this morning's article. Allow me to share a comment and ask a question, please. The comment: my wife is a graduate of a state teachers college in Massachusetts. She is also a multiple-award-winning network news editor, having served for 21 years at ABC under Ted Koppel in New York. During her early years, she felt somewhat insecure and inferior, being surrounded by Ivy college alumni across the newsroom. I finally told her the story about Lyndon Johnson said that "Sometimes i feel a little out place, educationally. You know, I'll be sitting at a meeting of the National Security Council and remind myself that the table is occupied by two Harvard graduates, a Yale graduate, a Stanford graduate, and one graduate of San Pecos State Teachers College." The question: you mentioned the top 10 CEOs of Fortune 500 companies. Any thoughts on tracking down what their majors were at those schools?
8
My daughter was in the second decile at New Trier and cramming to take the ACT a second time, when I asked her, "What if the selection of questions and your guesses when you are unsure, all come out in your favor, causing you to reach a score that gets you into the very top colleges? Might you get admitted where you would struggle to survive?" Her reply was, "I sit every day surrounded by kids who will go to those schools, and I hold my own just fine."
She went to her best choice, St. Olaf, mined it for all it was worth, and is since, doing very well.
She went to her best choice, St. Olaf, mined it for all it was worth, and is since, doing very well.
15
Wonderful piece, thank you. Perspective is hard for a teen to grasp, supportive parents can help immeasurably.
5
An undergraduate degree is more about you than the institution. An Ivy league school is more about the connections than the education.
23
Simply the best piece that I have ever read in the NYT. Bravo!
7
A Timex and Rolex tell time equally. So with colleges for the most part. The brand is presumably based on "connections"---read: classism.
15
Go figure: At the bottom of my class, with mediocre SAT scores, but a leader in sports and social activities at school, I settled for the 2 year Hospitality Management program offered by UMass-Amherst, while many of my classmates got into the Ivies. I was a foreign student who barely graduated from Greece’s elite, 10 year (4th-13th grade) prep school which harbored the country’s future leaders. Bored by the lack of challenge the program and my classmates offered, I graduated with a C+. Learning that I would lose one semester when transferring to UMass’ 4 year program, I decided to challenge the system. In one week at the beginning of the term, I convinced Admissions to give me credits for much of my high school curriculum based on the discovery that U of Michigan accepted my prep school’s graduates directly as sophomores. By adding placement exams, I finished the week earning 3 additional semesters of college credits. Motivated and challenged, I excelled as a senior at UMass, earning my BSc a year before my peers. While my ATGSBs were pitiful (≤20%), my successful navigation of the system and early graduation prompted Berkeley, Syracuse and Stanford to accept me for an MBA. I ended up at Michigan State on a stipend, after I knocked on the Dean’s door in July, while visiting my future wife in Ann Arbor. Years later I read Goleman’s “Emotional Intelligence” and retained its central message: “Hi IQs happily making $100K/year working for hi EQ’s making $1M”. This answers it all.
11
I am at the opposite end of the spectrum. I went to an elite Midwestern college and was in over my head. I hated all four years but survived, probably stronger for the experience, and have since had a happy sixty years.
10
Excellent piece. Thank you.
5
Boy oh boy, it has gotten crazy. I was lucky enough to go from the top of my class in a small Catholic seminary to Stanford in 1971. It was a challenging transition. Going from top dog to being around so many smart, accomplished people was a self image hit. I got my first C ever, and was devastated. In the adjustment process, I plugged along. Spring semester I decided to try for all A's. I tried. I did. And I was miserable. After that my self esteem balanced and my practical midwest upbringing made me happy to go for A's AND B's.
And I ended up at a fabulous program in medicine at the University of Illinois, which allowed me to follow my own path, and get off the insane competitive treadmill that churns ever faster these days.
And I ended up at a fabulous program in medicine at the University of Illinois, which allowed me to follow my own path, and get off the insane competitive treadmill that churns ever faster these days.
11
I hope Frank Bruni's book has more careful analysis of the comparative value of colleges than is reflected in this essay.
Looking at the degrees of the CEOs of the top 10 Fortune 500 companies is a nice anecdote that deeply misleading. Why would you judge anything by looking at just the 10 most extreme cases? A better comparison would be to turn it completely upside down--compare the career paths or average income of the whole of the Dartmouth vs. Auburn vs. UC Davis graduating classes. For better or worse, I suspect Mr. Bruni will find a very different outcome.
Second, his comparison of Stanford to University of Waterloo, "a public school in the Canadian province of Ontario", is even more worrisome. Has Mr. Bruni done any homework at all or is he just looking to cherry pick evidence for his thesis?
The University of Waterloo is well-known in the higher education community as having a highly unique and specialized "coop" system where students rotate between an academic experience and work/internship experience. It's been amazingly successful, particularly in the sciences and engineering. and particularly in producing entrepreneurs in the technology industry.
But to use this one comparison, based on one interview with a recruiter in one industry to imply, as Bruni does, that a Stanford degree does not give you a leg up over a public school, without any additional context is not helpful.
Looking at the degrees of the CEOs of the top 10 Fortune 500 companies is a nice anecdote that deeply misleading. Why would you judge anything by looking at just the 10 most extreme cases? A better comparison would be to turn it completely upside down--compare the career paths or average income of the whole of the Dartmouth vs. Auburn vs. UC Davis graduating classes. For better or worse, I suspect Mr. Bruni will find a very different outcome.
Second, his comparison of Stanford to University of Waterloo, "a public school in the Canadian province of Ontario", is even more worrisome. Has Mr. Bruni done any homework at all or is he just looking to cherry pick evidence for his thesis?
The University of Waterloo is well-known in the higher education community as having a highly unique and specialized "coop" system where students rotate between an academic experience and work/internship experience. It's been amazingly successful, particularly in the sciences and engineering. and particularly in producing entrepreneurs in the technology industry.
But to use this one comparison, based on one interview with a recruiter in one industry to imply, as Bruni does, that a Stanford degree does not give you a leg up over a public school, without any additional context is not helpful.
30
Where do you think these ridiculous self serving kids who only think an Ivie can fulfill their dreams, get this idea? From foolish helicoptering parents who actually only live to tell their friends how wonderful their kids are. No wonder the !% who actually go to these schools are so arrogant. They fill the law firms and financial companies of wall street. They have no regard for what their decisions will mean for the average farmer, homeowner, small business owner etc. Look at the Senate. The two biggest fools, Cruz and Cotton have Ivy League degrees.
My father a Yale Divinity School graduate abhors the arrogance and ridiculousness of the pursuit of an Ivie. How shallow and perverse my generation and the generation before me, have become. We even see it here in our small 100k burg. Parents sending their kids to private and charter schools since they would not want to be contaminated by working class whites and hispanics or god forbid a kid whose parents went to a State School. The horror!
My dad told me that you don't need an Ivy law degree to be successful. When I started law school in 1985 it was at the University of Nebraska. Wonderful school and wonderful town. I make 6 times what he ever made.
The letter written to the son I imagine was the parents assuaging their guilt. No kid is such a driver without huge pressure from the parents. The academic snub parents are usually like the crazy sports parents. Fulfilling some deep seated need for themselves.
My father a Yale Divinity School graduate abhors the arrogance and ridiculousness of the pursuit of an Ivie. How shallow and perverse my generation and the generation before me, have become. We even see it here in our small 100k burg. Parents sending their kids to private and charter schools since they would not want to be contaminated by working class whites and hispanics or god forbid a kid whose parents went to a State School. The horror!
My dad told me that you don't need an Ivy law degree to be successful. When I started law school in 1985 it was at the University of Nebraska. Wonderful school and wonderful town. I make 6 times what he ever made.
The letter written to the son I imagine was the parents assuaging their guilt. No kid is such a driver without huge pressure from the parents. The academic snub parents are usually like the crazy sports parents. Fulfilling some deep seated need for themselves.
14
It's definitely madness, but Bruni glosses over the issues.
Elite schools are feeder schools to easy money and easy power: Wall Street and Washington DC.
Additionally, even without the Wall Street and DC lotteries, there is now a lot of fear that small differences in opportunity will result in big differences in compensation.
Right now Wall Street and DC symbiosis have no reason to fix the problem.
Elite schools are feeder schools to easy money and easy power: Wall Street and Washington DC.
Additionally, even without the Wall Street and DC lotteries, there is now a lot of fear that small differences in opportunity will result in big differences in compensation.
Right now Wall Street and DC symbiosis have no reason to fix the problem.
14
I came from a very small town, and was the first person in my family who attended college. I had a choice between a good state school and an elite school, and I chose the elite school. It opened up the world for me and continues to open doors for me 25 years later. I have a satisfying and lucrative career, and I can trace that back to my undergraduate years when I worked in a nationally ranked research hospital linked to my school. I also met my husband there, who was a lot more wordly, and we ended up traveling the world together and living abroad. I would have been fine at the state school, but I doubt I would have hand anywhere near as many opportunities. In my life so far, going to that elite school has been the biggest factor in who I turned out to be, and remains a safety net and 'family' that I never really had at home. I'm still paying off my loans ($95/month) but it was worth every penny.
20
This obsession with brand name and elite colleges is also part and parcel of corporate ed reform movement currently being thrust upon the K-12 population (compulsive standardized testing, attacking public schools and its teachers, limiting art/science/music/civics to force kids to become test takers, etc.) . Convincing 17 year-olds that a "brand" name college is the end goal for every high school senior is nonsense. What 99% of the kids accepted at these elite schools have learned is nothing more then how to jump through hoops since kindergarten. In a quest for what? To preserve their leg up? Give me the Steve Jobs's of the world any day: public high school graduate, a 2.65 high school GPA, moderately rebellious, creative, free-thinking, and hard working at what interested him.
Why do free thinkers scare admissions people, The College Board, test prep companies, and elite universities so much? Oh right. The money they will lose if people see through all of this. Get a good education for the best value and take on little to no debt; find the right fit; work hard at what you love; respect other people's rights and gifts; become a life-long learner. Question conventional wisdom about who and what is successful always.
Why do free thinkers scare admissions people, The College Board, test prep companies, and elite universities so much? Oh right. The money they will lose if people see through all of this. Get a good education for the best value and take on little to no debt; find the right fit; work hard at what you love; respect other people's rights and gifts; become a life-long learner. Question conventional wisdom about who and what is successful always.
23
Read Charles Monagan's book, How To Get a Monkey Into Harvard.
12
Generally to be successful an individual has to have drive. Drive and confidence in one's abilities are the true keys for success. Frankly except for areas such as mathematics and physics, even being a genius may not be useful without drive
7
This is a wonderful article. Many, many years ago when I was president of a local ivy college club in the metropolitan New York area, several visiting members of the acceptance committee conceded without hesitation that Jewish applicants from the area were facing a high barrier to acceptance. I mention this not merely to raise the issue of religious discrimination but to show that well intentioned and capacious high school students are involved in a process of incoherent standards which is unjustifiably hurtful. I would, for once, like to see admissions departments at "prestigious" schools defend their policies without resort to platitudes about diversity (often honored in the breach) or whatever else they come up with.
I would, also, like to see an article comparing the undergraduate course offerings at a school like Dartmouth with a school like St. Johns in Queens where the tuition is 10 or 12 thousand dollars less.
I would, also, like to see an article comparing the undergraduate course offerings at a school like Dartmouth with a school like St. Johns in Queens where the tuition is 10 or 12 thousand dollars less.
4
As a parent who has recently been through the college search, I thank you for this piece. So much rings true!
But as an adjunct professor who teaches a course at a very non-elite college, I also want to offer the following caveat: the educational experience of my students is nothing like the educational experience I enjoyed at an elite college. You don't have to go to a highly competitive school like Brown or Stanford to find motivated students, get involved in research or honors projects of note, experience lively classroom exchanges, and have discussions outside the classroom on subjects other than Instagram and gossip. But you are unlikely to find these at a very uncompetitive school, and it will negatively impact the education you receive. The good news is that there is a large middle ground out there- neither super elite nor virtually open admission. But don't kid yourself that going to a low ranked school is the same as a highly ranked one. It isn't.
But as an adjunct professor who teaches a course at a very non-elite college, I also want to offer the following caveat: the educational experience of my students is nothing like the educational experience I enjoyed at an elite college. You don't have to go to a highly competitive school like Brown or Stanford to find motivated students, get involved in research or honors projects of note, experience lively classroom exchanges, and have discussions outside the classroom on subjects other than Instagram and gossip. But you are unlikely to find these at a very uncompetitive school, and it will negatively impact the education you receive. The good news is that there is a large middle ground out there- neither super elite nor virtually open admission. But don't kid yourself that going to a low ranked school is the same as a highly ranked one. It isn't.
37
i confess to being complicit in the chase for elite schools for my twins, who are currently college juniors. While i agree that individual students can have outstanding experiences and reach great heights irrespective of what college they attend, the truth is a bit more complicated than that. the probability of maximizing choice late in life relates not just to academics, but also past alumni engagement, endowment and quality of fellow students. i have watched my kids, who are at U Chicago and UVa, benefit enormously from the engagement of alumni and the extent of the future career help thats provided to current students. Many of my friends children, who went to other institutions did not get the same level of secondary support.
The bigger issue, I think, is not that elite institutions are not worth the fight, but rather how rigged the admissions process is. The clout of legacies, and prior relationships make it less than a level playing field. This prevents the students who aspire to go to the Brown's and princeton's incapable of hitting their goals. (even if Bruni things they are misguided.)
The bigger issue, I think, is not that elite institutions are not worth the fight, but rather how rigged the admissions process is. The clout of legacies, and prior relationships make it less than a level playing field. This prevents the students who aspire to go to the Brown's and princeton's incapable of hitting their goals. (even if Bruni things they are misguided.)
5
Each year Frank Bruni seems to write a piece dedicated to the College Admissions season. And I am always impressed by his insights, suggestions and push for us to think out of the traditional admissions box. I have not approached the college process with my own girls yet, but I will keep these reminders of Mr. Bruni in my mind as we eventually enter the insane world of college admissions. Thank you, Mr. Bruni. I have shared your work with many and will continue to do so.
2
Thank you.
Every college experience is unique. What works for some kids at Yale doesn't work for those same kids at Yale. And Yale will never tell you this.
Academics are important -- for sure -- but kids don't need to be at an Ivy to have competitive academics. Most of the top third of universities -- that's a few hundred universities and college -- in this country have very strong academics and very strong students. Yet, the high school pressure to land a spot at an elite university -- the top 20 or so -- is ridiculous. I remember attending an admissions meeting at Wake Forest when I was a high school junior. How I wanted to go there! And this professor told me, "look, if you don't have 600 on your math and 600 on your verbal, you're not going to get in here. Period." But then he said something dead-on: "this region has many outstanding schools that aren't named Emory, Duke or Wake Forest. Check them out." I did -- and I have kind of story just like Peter.
As a lawyer, I have several colleagues that went to Wake and Duke and, well, we're in the same place even though my undergraduate degree is from Spring Hill College. No, I didn't get ACC tournaments but I also didn't get beaten down by kids who had a little more than me for four years. I was a later-bloomer and, looking back on it, I don't have any regrets.
Every college experience is unique. What works for some kids at Yale doesn't work for those same kids at Yale. And Yale will never tell you this.
Academics are important -- for sure -- but kids don't need to be at an Ivy to have competitive academics. Most of the top third of universities -- that's a few hundred universities and college -- in this country have very strong academics and very strong students. Yet, the high school pressure to land a spot at an elite university -- the top 20 or so -- is ridiculous. I remember attending an admissions meeting at Wake Forest when I was a high school junior. How I wanted to go there! And this professor told me, "look, if you don't have 600 on your math and 600 on your verbal, you're not going to get in here. Period." But then he said something dead-on: "this region has many outstanding schools that aren't named Emory, Duke or Wake Forest. Check them out." I did -- and I have kind of story just like Peter.
As a lawyer, I have several colleagues that went to Wake and Duke and, well, we're in the same place even though my undergraduate degree is from Spring Hill College. No, I didn't get ACC tournaments but I also didn't get beaten down by kids who had a little more than me for four years. I was a later-bloomer and, looking back on it, I don't have any regrets.
7
"And he finagled a way, off campus, to interview with several of the top-drawer consulting firms that trawled for recruits at the Ivies but often bypassed schools like Indiana."
Until this changes, the pressure and competition to get into the top colleges is not going to change. Sure, there are many success stories of students farther down the education ladder. But there are also many failure stories. Things are just easier when coming from a top-tier school. Because the schools have a rigorous selection process, employers and graduate schools can use that as a filter for them. You know that someone with Cs at Ivy U is probably as competent as someone with As at State U. It's just much easier and less work at Ivy U to get Cs than it is to stand out at State U.
Until this changes, the pressure and competition to get into the top colleges is not going to change. Sure, there are many success stories of students farther down the education ladder. But there are also many failure stories. Things are just easier when coming from a top-tier school. Because the schools have a rigorous selection process, employers and graduate schools can use that as a filter for them. You know that someone with Cs at Ivy U is probably as competent as someone with As at State U. It's just much easier and less work at Ivy U to get Cs than it is to stand out at State U.
6
Perfect timing for the publication this week of Frank Bruni's new book, "Where You Go Is Not Who You'll Be." It's on my list of summer reading: my daughter is in the high school class of 2017, so she begins touring colleges and prepping for SATs, etc., in just a few months. Thank you for this excellent article, Mr. Bruni.
1
Getting into elite colleges is not about a superior education but all about class elevation and making important connections that will last for life.
8
Mr. Bruni is the leading commentator in high brow journalism writing on behalf of U.S. higher education.
We are grateful for the heart and head that he brings to this important sector of American society.
And hope that his contributions will help turn the tide of commentators, and more critically politicians, using higher education as a political football.
We are grateful for the heart and head that he brings to this important sector of American society.
And hope that his contributions will help turn the tide of commentators, and more critically politicians, using higher education as a political football.
Great Column, Frank! It represents a philosophy that I have had for over 40 years, since I had the GREAT fortune to attend York College (CUNY). York opened up a thought process (academically, personally and professionally) that transformed my life. It is inconceivable to me that any of the so called "elite" colleges that often leave our young people (and their families saddled with enormous debt) could have had the same type of positive impact on me. I am very proud that one of my sons is also a York graduate and has had the same type of an experience. For many reasons the message in today's column needs to impact our national consciousness. Thank you.
4
I share Frank's sentiment, but the reality is unfortunately otherwise.
An Ivy League education may be no better than that of a state university or any other college. However, it makes a big difference on one's resume. Just look at our last four presidents, the members of the supreme court, and most of the Masters of the Universe at the investment banks.
Maybe we need a diversity program that seeks people who did not go to Ivy League colleges.
An Ivy League education may be no better than that of a state university or any other college. However, it makes a big difference on one's resume. Just look at our last four presidents, the members of the supreme court, and most of the Masters of the Universe at the investment banks.
Maybe we need a diversity program that seeks people who did not go to Ivy League colleges.
8
The two example students who were initially rejected by those 1% universities, eventually ended up in grad school at Harvard, and running a charter school. So they ended up as elite as they wanted to be in the beginning. They just took a detour to get there. The idea that high school and college is about pleasing an admissions office, or creating a resume of must have courses and activities is pretty sad. The only time in your life when you can explore, be creative, spend the luxury of time finding out who you are and what you want, is given over to trying to become someone else's idea of success on paper.
6
there are so many things that are messed up in American culture that i'm not sure why admissions to colleges/universities would be any different....
5
As a parent at the other end of the college process, I try mightily to tell parents and their children to get a little less crazy about the elite college thing, but I always feel that it is falling on deaf ears! At the same time, there is no escaping the reality that there is an "elite" track, and enormous advantages accrue to the student who rides it.
6
Having gone thru this last year I am glad to see this article. My daughter made several college visits and it was on her last trip that she found the school that she belonged at, not an Ivy but an engineering school in upstate New York that fit her. If you give the kids a chance to visit the schools and get a feel for them they will usually make a good decision.
6
"I’m describing the psychology of a minority of American families; a majority are focused on making sure that their kids simply attend a decent college — any decent college — and on finding a way to help them pay for it."
A majority are focused on making sure they have enough to eat.
A majority are focused on making sure they have enough to eat.
11
Just what the doctor ordered for all the moms and dads and maybe some of the kids out there waiting anxiously....thanks, Frank!
3
Frank,
Thank you so much for writing what so many others should say.My daughters were good solid students. College selection for them was like an all day sucker, meant to be enjoyed. They both thrived in college, challenged academically, meeting others form diverse backgrounds, seeing parts of the world and enjoying life in general. They are both early in their careers and doing what they truly enjoy. Most parents need to take the back seat and let kids be kids.
Thank you so much for writing what so many others should say.My daughters were good solid students. College selection for them was like an all day sucker, meant to be enjoyed. They both thrived in college, challenged academically, meeting others form diverse backgrounds, seeing parts of the world and enjoying life in general. They are both early in their careers and doing what they truly enjoy. Most parents need to take the back seat and let kids be kids.
4
Superb atricle. We often forget that many great people who have made and continue to make huge contributions to businesses and society often come from humble beginnings and modest community colleges. Maybe it is not so much about where you study but rather what you do with it after.
2
There is an easy way to fix the problem set forth here: Take the admission process out of the hands of the unqualified college marketing departments and hand it over to the teachers, who should administer old fashioned entrance exams and conduct their own required interviews. By the way, you might need to get rid of the NCAA, too, to make it work the way it should.
9
The fact that these parents felt the need to write that letter to their son says it all to me. Shouldn't their son KNOW that they would love him no matter what his college acceptances were???
17
Dear Mr. Bruni: I think the substance of your column undermines the very thesis you offer. The children you select as examples are quite extraordinary. Yes, perhaps they did to get into the college of their choice, but what they did afterwards reflects their special talents and abilities. So unfortunately, the thrust of your article does little to alleviate the concern of parents whose children, who may not have the grades, SATs etc. to gain admission to the top schools, can nevertheless succeed By choosing examples of two students who subsequently succeeded to such a degree..i.e., Harvard Business school a bit later, you do little to ameliorate concerns of most parents, sorry to say.
2
Don't want to burst any bubbles, but although I agree with teh basic values expressed in the story there is, at least for Californians, a big different between state schools and private ones. The state's public colleges and universities are slammed. Most classes are huge. most courses are taught by grad students, not professors--though that isn't always a terrible thing. There is very little guidance, getting into classes is a bear--there aren't enough slots and athletes get first priority--and there's precious little flexibility for changing a course of study. It's nearly impossible to get into a creative writing course or dance class unless you're majoring in those fields. And this applies even to Berkeley, the queen of the public universities here. Elite private schools have more network, have people coming to campus to recruit, and help their graduates pull together better applications for graduate school. It is true that too much has been made of the elite privates, it's true that the whole admissions process is ridiculous, and I'm not saying these differences can't be overcome, but they do exist. We can point our noses skyward in disdain and engage in the comforting fiction that a state school is just as good or better. It will be better in its way, but not in some other key ways.
12
My daughter worked extremely hard to get into her first college of choice: Brown. She got in. (she got lucky - the fact is there are too many qualified applicants and two few positions at top choice colleges.) Why her and not someone else – we will never know, but her experience there has been wonderful and challenging- students at top tier colleges soon discover they are not the smartest or most talented person in the room. All good colleges, regardless of “ratings” force students to grow.
One item worth mentioning is that colleges that attract a large percentage of international students ( ~ 12% at Brown) help to create a stimulating and diverse campus environment.
One item worth mentioning is that colleges that attract a large percentage of international students ( ~ 12% at Brown) help to create a stimulating and diverse campus environment.
4
I've read this article and many like it. I keep on asking myself the same question. Maybe someone can answer this question for me. What is so damn important about where your child goes to school? Isn't the child's happiness the most important thing? The pressure placed on these kids to succeed is enormous. What good does it do? Don't we as parents want our children to be happy and have a job that pays the bills? After reading this article I beginning not to think so.
7
My observations about who is getting into the "elite" schools has led me to believe that they are being filled with kids that are more likely to be high strung and less balanced in life (despite the careful crafting of EC activities) than those who are attending some of the less competitive schools. Already, I find myself looking upon the kids graduating from the Ivies who want to work at my practice with some bias in this regard (despite my own Ivy education).
I think this persepective will become more prevalent and it may result in backlash against these schools who think they are picking the "best of the best".
I think this persepective will become more prevalent and it may result in backlash against these schools who think they are picking the "best of the best".
9
It may hurt some kids, but it helps us all overall by giving kids goals to strive for and hurdles to overcome. I don't believe a society where no one learns how to strive for something will improve itself, let alone hold on to what already exists in America. It's too easy for kids to slough off and just play video games, drown in social media and smoke weed. We all benefit in the long run from competition and structured striving.
I do think however that better models exist for education. Online education can eliminate much of what this article complains about. A lot of the gating that admissions departments perform is driven simply by physical limits of facilities for in-person instruction. If the nation made a whole-hearted commitment to online methods of higher education, the problems this article identifies, as well as the student debt problem, and likely others, would be diminished considerably.
I do think however that better models exist for education. Online education can eliminate much of what this article complains about. A lot of the gating that admissions departments perform is driven simply by physical limits of facilities for in-person instruction. If the nation made a whole-hearted commitment to online methods of higher education, the problems this article identifies, as well as the student debt problem, and likely others, would be diminished considerably.
2
As a university professor and former administrator I couldn't agree more with your column. In my field of petroleum geology you find very few ivy leaguers. Almost all of the scientists and engineers that I know in the petroleum industry are the product of state universities and other "lesser" schools. To be successful in the "oil business" students actually have to be able to do something when they graduate! Once in the industry they enjoy very high salaries and job satisfaction. Many other professions, especially in the STEM fields are the same. Success depends on the person, not the polish of an exclusive school that one may or may not get in to for whatever reason.
8
Childhood community and high school cliques can issue some cruel shackles. No student should feel her or his position in life is determined by their status in high school. Many have been bamboozled into thinking they are less capable than they are by accepting a position assigned them by peers and school community since kindergarten. When they break free of their assigned positions and start to discover their own capabilities in a new community, they can give themselves permission to rise to their actual potential and that potential is in no way inferior to that of an ivy league graduate. In my career, I cannot begin to list the dysfunctional professionals I've met that came from status schools and how frequently the solutions that proved best came from the graduates of very average state universities.
6
I attended Indiana University, Columbia, and Harvard, in that order. One of the first things I discovered at the Ivy institutions was that Indiana compared very well to them. I felt fortunate to have gone there as an undergraduate, and that I got a great bargain.
14
But, at Harvard, you had the chance to meet people who could have made you rich.
5
when i decided to go back to college for another bachelor's in mechanical engineering, i was very fortunate that uc berkeley wouldn't take me so i ended up at san jose state university where i got a far better undergraduate education in ME than i would have gotten at cal. san jose state (in 1980 before it became an appendage of silicon valley) offered a curriculum that was broad and practical, while cal's was (and certainly still is) heavy on the math and light on the basics of the technological pyramid.
when my nephew wrote that he wanted grades good enough to get into any school he wanted, i wrote back that grades are just a way for the student to evaluate how well s/he has understood the material. the real test comes after college - it's called life.
and why aren't more college-educated, high-achieving parents asking why high school curricula can't teach enough for that diploma to lead to useful work? are we really doing youth a favor by postponing economic participation for a decade after puberty? why aren't parents asking more about how corporations are making a killing on all the testing and grading of common core and various charter scams? how useful could their college educations have been if they fall for these cons?
when my nephew wrote that he wanted grades good enough to get into any school he wanted, i wrote back that grades are just a way for the student to evaluate how well s/he has understood the material. the real test comes after college - it's called life.
and why aren't more college-educated, high-achieving parents asking why high school curricula can't teach enough for that diploma to lead to useful work? are we really doing youth a favor by postponing economic participation for a decade after puberty? why aren't parents asking more about how corporations are making a killing on all the testing and grading of common core and various charter scams? how useful could their college educations have been if they fall for these cons?
3
This piece is full of wisdom. There are many paths to success and happiness. Do not define yourself by where you attend college. Find the college that meets your needs (and budget) which may very well not be the most "elite" college on the list.
2
And then again, there are the students who do not have support and encouragement from their families, who live in locations or circumstances that preclude impressive-sounding extracurricular activities. College Admissions Madness is for the relatively fortunate only.
3
There is one aspect of the elite schools that you did not touch on--the affordability factor for academically successful students from low-income families.
At the City University of New York, New York City's local public university, full-time tuition at a four-year college is $6,030 per year. That sounds like a bargain for a family earning six figures, but for family barely bringing in five figures, it's a fortune.
I am amazed at how many people I meet who would have likely been admitted to the nations' wealthiest universities with full scholarships, but instead struggled to cover the costs at local public schools. A few realize in time to pass the information on to younger siblings or cousins who enjoy the benefit of a free education, often accompanied by stipends for not only housing and cost of living, but summer trips abroad, at universities like Columbia and Yale--colleges that are certainly not worse than the local public schools the young people would have otherwise struggled to afford.
While it is easy to point out the folly of the privileged chasing after the fanciest names, for high school students from low-income families with stellar SATs, America's wealthiest elite universities remain the best deal around.
At the City University of New York, New York City's local public university, full-time tuition at a four-year college is $6,030 per year. That sounds like a bargain for a family earning six figures, but for family barely bringing in five figures, it's a fortune.
I am amazed at how many people I meet who would have likely been admitted to the nations' wealthiest universities with full scholarships, but instead struggled to cover the costs at local public schools. A few realize in time to pass the information on to younger siblings or cousins who enjoy the benefit of a free education, often accompanied by stipends for not only housing and cost of living, but summer trips abroad, at universities like Columbia and Yale--colleges that are certainly not worse than the local public schools the young people would have otherwise struggled to afford.
While it is easy to point out the folly of the privileged chasing after the fanciest names, for high school students from low-income families with stellar SATs, America's wealthiest elite universities remain the best deal around.
14
It's too bad that many admissions officers don't or cannot try to read between the lines. Oftentimes, teenagers mature on different schedules and those who mature earlier have an advantage over those who are late-bloomers. How many pf those who are late to grow mentally are being left behind?
2
As a practical matter, the school at which you take your terminal degree is far more important than your undergraduate institution. As I have told too many of my (chemistry) students destined for transfer, hoping for Berkeley: "No on is going to spit on you because you graduated from Cal Poly."
5
You could just not obsess over the whole process. You could just ask your child what they are interested in and help guide them. You could have a long talk with your child and make sure college is even the right choice for them. You could go online and do some research and you can certainly visit the colleges your child is interested in but there is absolutely no reason to turn this process into a crises. My wife and I have helped to guide two children through the college admissions process and it really doesn't have to be overwhelming and with the quality of many public institutions, it doesn't have to put you and your children deep into debt either.
4
Exactly! In this wealthy town the madness seems to spread across town every.college season. It seems to come mostly from rabidly ambitious Alpha parents who worry that their kids might end up in jobs where they earn less than they do each year. Heaven forbid! But one doesn't have to partipate in the nuttiness. It puts tremendous pressure on the kids and they in turn put it on themselves. It's just another exercise in "Keeping up with the Jones" and the kids suffer.
4
China's National College Entrance Examination, which every Chinese student needs to come through after their high school education, came to me four years ago. I'm fortunate to have received an entrance letter from Tsinghua University and spend four years in that top school in China. Now, I have received several ad of master degree in the U.S. and still hesitated which university to go for further study. I was rejected by almost all the top schools in the U.S. this summer and was truely in sorrow for what I had experienced. But this article prompted me to have a new perspective on the situation I am in. College is not the only destination we would reach. We have love from our family, our friends and of course ourselves'. Whatever goal you choose to pursue, do not forget the you four years ago and fight for your dream.
4
While I'm sure anecdote-filled columns like this make those excluded feel warm and hopeful, the truth is: "Holding qualifications constant, graduates of a selective university are more likely to graduate on time, will tend to find a more desirable spouse, and will earn 20 percent more than those of less selective universities—every year for the rest of their working lives. These advantages swamp any differences in tuition and other expenses, which in any case are often lower than those of less selective schools because of more generous need-based financial aid. The Ivy admissions sweepstakes may be irrational, but the parents and teenagers who clamber to win it are not." –Harvard Professor Steven Pinker, (New Republic, SEPTEMBER 4, 2014)
8
The NY Times obsession with Northeast private colleges is infuriating. There is a big country and Rice, Washington U(St Louis), Univ of the South are highly regarded private universities and are getting more prestigious as the country turns away from tri state investment banking wannabes. When the poor kid at the end "only " got into Lehigh I felt like kicking the computer.
8
I went to Stanford, which is located next to Palo Alto. There are two high schools there, Gunn and Paly -- and they both have major suicide issues. There have already been three this year. There is no one "root" of this problem -- but the "culture of achievement" is definitely a strong contributor.
Kids are surrounded by successful parents (often Stanford alumni or tech millionaires) who have very high expectations for them. They encourage their kids to "stand out" to college admissions officers with APs, GPAs and SATs. I know one boy who applied to a volunteer program to help the poor in Jamaica -- but his mom wouldn't let him go. She said it was too important for him to stay home and study for the SATs (and take a few summer APs).
These kids have the passion and curiosity drowned out of them. Instead, they start to feel like numbers, scores and rankings.
In a recent post, "APs Make You Look Complacent, Not Curious," (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/aps-make-you-look-complacent-not-curi... I supported capping the number of APs a student can take per year. This allows kids time to discover their own identity and find pursuits that are important to them -- which, as a psychologist, I can say is what teenagers are SUPPOSED to be doing. In ten years, it won't matter what they learned in AP U.S. History. But if they didn't develop coping skills, resilience, creativity, problem solving skills and a sense of self in high school, they could STILL be emotionally stunted.
Kids are surrounded by successful parents (often Stanford alumni or tech millionaires) who have very high expectations for them. They encourage their kids to "stand out" to college admissions officers with APs, GPAs and SATs. I know one boy who applied to a volunteer program to help the poor in Jamaica -- but his mom wouldn't let him go. She said it was too important for him to stay home and study for the SATs (and take a few summer APs).
These kids have the passion and curiosity drowned out of them. Instead, they start to feel like numbers, scores and rankings.
In a recent post, "APs Make You Look Complacent, Not Curious," (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/aps-make-you-look-complacent-not-curi... I supported capping the number of APs a student can take per year. This allows kids time to discover their own identity and find pursuits that are important to them -- which, as a psychologist, I can say is what teenagers are SUPPOSED to be doing. In ten years, it won't matter what they learned in AP U.S. History. But if they didn't develop coping skills, resilience, creativity, problem solving skills and a sense of self in high school, they could STILL be emotionally stunted.
6
When I applied to Stanford in 2004, it was super hard to get a spot. The acceptance rate was 10%. Today, the acceptance rate is half that.
As I wrote on my bog recently,
As far as I'm concerned, students who get into Stanford and Harvard aren't "better" than kids who only got into their second-choice (or safety) school. They're just luckier. So calling the college you got into an "accomplishment" is like calling finding $5 on the street during your run an "accomplishment."
On the one hand, you wouldn't have found that $5 if you hadn't worked hard and braved the rain and cold weather. On the other, you're not a better runner than I am just because you found $5 on your run and I didn't.
As I wrote on my bog recently,
As far as I'm concerned, students who get into Stanford and Harvard aren't "better" than kids who only got into their second-choice (or safety) school. They're just luckier. So calling the college you got into an "accomplishment" is like calling finding $5 on the street during your run an "accomplishment."
On the one hand, you wouldn't have found that $5 if you hadn't worked hard and braved the rain and cold weather. On the other, you're not a better runner than I am just because you found $5 on your run and I didn't.
6
What a beautiful letter, and a salutary column. Maybe the Levins could travel the country doing commencement addresses (for a few of course). I plan to re-read this column, once I've cleared my eyes of this salty water blocking my vision...
1
Solid advice. Keep in mind that what young people lack is experience, which, even if dreadful, serves you well throughout your life & which you can use to evaluate all kinds of situations. Some experiences to consider:
Delay Going to College: Get some work experience & save your money to reduce college debt. I taught traditional college students & adult learners. Adult learners had an advantage in that they actually appreciated going to college, could use their experiences to relate to classroom learning, & had the maturity to settle down and get the work done; plus they were the ones who added so much to class discussions.
Transfer Colleges: If you find you don't like the college you attend your freshman year, then transfer colleges. No experience is lost, and attending a couple of colleges in different parts of the country can be invaluable. I did this.
Travel: A formal education is one thing when you are a young person, but what did as much for me as my college education was travel to other countries. I first did this between my junior and senior years on a cheap but reputable student tour, or you can do a study-abroad program while in college. My spouse traveled in the military & got the GI Bill. Bill Maher said only 30% of Americans have passports--amazing! No wonder so many Americans are chauvinistic & limited. Seeing other countries shows you beautiful cultures & alternative ways of living, and boy do you have to think on your feet to get yourself out of messes.
Delay Going to College: Get some work experience & save your money to reduce college debt. I taught traditional college students & adult learners. Adult learners had an advantage in that they actually appreciated going to college, could use their experiences to relate to classroom learning, & had the maturity to settle down and get the work done; plus they were the ones who added so much to class discussions.
Transfer Colleges: If you find you don't like the college you attend your freshman year, then transfer colleges. No experience is lost, and attending a couple of colleges in different parts of the country can be invaluable. I did this.
Travel: A formal education is one thing when you are a young person, but what did as much for me as my college education was travel to other countries. I first did this between my junior and senior years on a cheap but reputable student tour, or you can do a study-abroad program while in college. My spouse traveled in the military & got the GI Bill. Bill Maher said only 30% of Americans have passports--amazing! No wonder so many Americans are chauvinistic & limited. Seeing other countries shows you beautiful cultures & alternative ways of living, and boy do you have to think on your feet to get yourself out of messes.
5
The college should mainly care if you can read, write, add, and come up with the money. I've never liked the "outstanding essay" criteria, but at least it answers two of the four. For me it is rather simple - get in a college by a video, get out of college without a job.
Our society has run amok. The funny thing about it is the fact that academic's and SAT scores are no measure of intelligence, just memorization and the ability to speed read, not think. We should go back to celebrating the genius of the individual, not this Chinese by rote method of measuring yourself.
2
I am convinced that one can learn at any college if one only pays attention and applies oneself. The advantage to going to an Ivy League school is that you just need to gain admission one way or the other, graduate and you are guaranteed a good future, just look at G.W. Bush
4
Dear Mr. Bruni,
I'd like to point out that while you are generous in pointing out that kids can be "successful" despite not going to an Ivy League school, the examples you use to define success simply move the impossible bar down the road. Sure kids! You can still be CEO of one of the top ten corporations; get a coveted job and start your own private school; even get that seed money for your successful tech startup - even if your degree didn't come from a school at the top of the US News and World Report's list - all before you turn 30! Really? Is this how we define success for our children? Obviously you know the odds of these kinds of outcomes are as small as the odds of getting into an Ivy. What about the kids who go to the elite schools then become great school teachers? What about kids who go to less than elite schools and become really great moms and dads, community volunteers, good friends and neighbors? Neither getting into the best schools nor succeeding wildly in one's career are the full measure of a person's success in my book.
I'd like to point out that while you are generous in pointing out that kids can be "successful" despite not going to an Ivy League school, the examples you use to define success simply move the impossible bar down the road. Sure kids! You can still be CEO of one of the top ten corporations; get a coveted job and start your own private school; even get that seed money for your successful tech startup - even if your degree didn't come from a school at the top of the US News and World Report's list - all before you turn 30! Really? Is this how we define success for our children? Obviously you know the odds of these kinds of outcomes are as small as the odds of getting into an Ivy. What about the kids who go to the elite schools then become great school teachers? What about kids who go to less than elite schools and become really great moms and dads, community volunteers, good friends and neighbors? Neither getting into the best schools nor succeeding wildly in one's career are the full measure of a person's success in my book.
20
I literally cried real tears reading the parents' letter. Beautiful!!
1
Thank you. I went through the college admissions process in the early 1980s. I attended a prestigious private school where a half-dozen students each year would each get into Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc.. People talked pretty much from sophomore year on about what you should do - captain of your sports team, etc. - to burnish your college application, and there was almost a sense that if you went to the local state university, somehow you had failed. So I put in the effort to apply to Harvard, Yale and Stanford, and minimal effort into my local university. The first three turned me down, not surprisingly, and the state school accepted me. I had a great education there. My classmates didn't necessarily all come from the save entitled backgrounds as those in my high school, but many were every bit as smart, and looking back years later, I marvel at the richness of the education I received and the intellectual rigorousness of my courses. It was clear even at that time that if you knew what you wanted to get out of it, you would do just fine at the state school. And lots of people ended up at top-level professional schools.
It's probably true that if you want to go straight from undergraduate study to Goldman Sachs or McKinsey, your chances are much better if you attend an Ivy or Stanford. But there are many ways to get where you want in life, and you never know in which place you'll find inspiration and opportunity.
It's probably true that if you want to go straight from undergraduate study to Goldman Sachs or McKinsey, your chances are much better if you attend an Ivy or Stanford. But there are many ways to get where you want in life, and you never know in which place you'll find inspiration and opportunity.
6
I work as an applied scientist in the R&D division of a major corporation. One of my job roles takes me to campuses every year to interview students for internships and full time positions. I get to meet eager young (and sometimes not so young) people who want to launch into professional life. I also have to make some difficult predictions: who will excel in our company environment, who will stick around long enough to pay off the years of additional training we invest in, and, quite frankly, who would I enjoy working with?
In my area, we hire mostly MS and PhD grads. So while the name (and reputation) of a candidate's undergrad institute matters, their graduate programs matter more. What else matters? UG grades, especially math and science. Independent research, grad and undergrad (and show me where you independently generated and pursued ideas). Understanding of how academic skills can be translated into solving "real world" (i.e. business) problems. Participation in professional activities, including societies, conventions, contests, workshops, internships. And some self-awareness that can be effectively communicated.
Similar to some other comments, when I look around at my co-workers, I see very successful people who attended elite undergrad colleges. But I see more who got their degrees at places many would consider their "safety" schools. My advice: focus more on your intellectual passions and less on your branding.
In my area, we hire mostly MS and PhD grads. So while the name (and reputation) of a candidate's undergrad institute matters, their graduate programs matter more. What else matters? UG grades, especially math and science. Independent research, grad and undergrad (and show me where you independently generated and pursued ideas). Understanding of how academic skills can be translated into solving "real world" (i.e. business) problems. Participation in professional activities, including societies, conventions, contests, workshops, internships. And some self-awareness that can be effectively communicated.
Similar to some other comments, when I look around at my co-workers, I see very successful people who attended elite undergrad colleges. But I see more who got their degrees at places many would consider their "safety" schools. My advice: focus more on your intellectual passions and less on your branding.
13
Hi Frank. I am high school senior who just went through this process. It was not fun. After going back and forth on where I wanted to go and do, I applied ED to Northwestern and got in. I got lucky, by getting in right away. In general, this process for applying and getting in stinks. It is heart breaking to see your close friends who are amazing students, and amazing people not get into their dream school, or even schools they cannot get into. We tell our selves that it is Stanford's loss for not wanting a 36 act, school record breaking athlete, and state champion in speech.
It used to be that students would compete to be top in their class and be the valedictorian. We go rid of that, now the top 2% is recognized. Things have changed. The top 10-25% of the class wants everyone to succeed. We all go through this process together. I could tell you that I am just as proud of my friend who got into Miami of Ohio's business program as I was my friend who is going to go to Princeton.
As students all we know we have to work hard to achieve our goals. Thank you for helping us remember that its not the school that is the driving force in someones success, but rather their work ethic. My class mates and I know that no matter where we go, if we work hard, we will be able to do great things.
It used to be that students would compete to be top in their class and be the valedictorian. We go rid of that, now the top 2% is recognized. Things have changed. The top 10-25% of the class wants everyone to succeed. We all go through this process together. I could tell you that I am just as proud of my friend who got into Miami of Ohio's business program as I was my friend who is going to go to Princeton.
As students all we know we have to work hard to achieve our goals. Thank you for helping us remember that its not the school that is the driving force in someones success, but rather their work ethic. My class mates and I know that no matter where we go, if we work hard, we will be able to do great things.
4
Bruni doesn't mention that Scripps is a women's college, a fact that shouldn't be discuounted when looking at the confidence-building and supportive environment that helped Jenna and many many young women like her, including my daughter, thrive.
2
When my daughter began looking at colleges, she received the "Wellesley Book Award" at her high school's awards night. It was totally not on our radar, but she went for a visit, fell in love with the school, applied, was accepted, and graduated Summa. You are SO right!
2
My problem with this article is that while it makes the case that motivated kids can succeed regardless of the US News and World Report ranking of the college or university they attend, Mr. Bruni goes on to define "success" in an incredibly narrow way that actually perpetuates the same kind of aspirations that create stressed-out kids and parents to begin with. There are many ways to be a successful person that have nothing to with being a CEO, opening and operating a private school or getting that wildly competitive seed money for a tech start-up. Ultimately, what every student should learn is that success is measured by many factors that have nothing to do with one's career. As I get older, it's clear that a "successful" life is be better defined by what a person does with the entirety of his/her life - as a parent, a family member and a community member. Far more than the overpaid profit-driven CEO, I'm inspired by those who care for others and find joy in each day despite the humbling hurtles life inevitably throws their way.
8
I am not convinced. Instances can be cited where people have succeeded famously without any college. So, what? Does a student not go to college if he or she wants to be Steven Jobs or Bill Gates? One must look at averages and variance. Your chances in life are better if you have a degree than no degree, and better still if from the best university possible. So, it is no wonder that kids are anxious to receive word on admission or rejection.
What I find disturbing is the girl from Exeter who was rejected because she scored in the low 600s on the Math section of the SAT. The anecdote is representative of how the admissions process works: cut-offs. The elite schools think more of a one-morning test than years of evaluation by even the most respected private institutions like Exeter.
The SAT is a bifurcation point where luck looms large. This element of chance is one reason why society should be more receptive toward a progressive tax system which helps to redistribute income.
What I find disturbing is the girl from Exeter who was rejected because she scored in the low 600s on the Math section of the SAT. The anecdote is representative of how the admissions process works: cut-offs. The elite schools think more of a one-morning test than years of evaluation by even the most respected private institutions like Exeter.
The SAT is a bifurcation point where luck looms large. This element of chance is one reason why society should be more receptive toward a progressive tax system which helps to redistribute income.
2
The other factor here may be the competition she had for admission to a highly selective college from others in her own school. The low 600 score in math might not have mattered as much if she were the only student applying from her school. Instead, I assume the majority of her classmates were applying to multiple Ivies. The math score probably caused her to be ranked further down the list than others from her school. No college or university will take all of the applicants from one school no matter how qualified they are.
3
But the article misses the point. The fact is that if you graduate from an elite institution you'll find that in many situations you will be given the benefit of the doubt over an otherwise equally positioned person who went to State U. The elite degree will open doors that will otherwise remain closed. (There is a question, of course, of whether you want to walk through this kind of door -- but that aside -- elite degrees will open doors).
The other point is that tier 2 private schools charge just as much as elite schools, and often have less financial aid. Why pay the same amount, and possibly more, for far less? (I attended a school rate consistently in the top 10 in the world, and also one rate about 150. Believe me, there's a difference).
The high price of education has been fueled by the law of supply and demand. Supply has been relatively fixed for 50 years+, other than packing more kids in a room, yet the demand has risen 10 fold. Why? Several reasons. First, financial aid. Financial aid has flooded the education market with money and has distorted pricing, given the relatively inelastic supply of high quality higher education. Foreign students have added to the influx of money, especially since foreign students are more likely than US students to come from extreme wealth. Loans have also created great distortion, as students often do not have experience in weighing the marginal utility of education against additional debt.
The other point is that tier 2 private schools charge just as much as elite schools, and often have less financial aid. Why pay the same amount, and possibly more, for far less? (I attended a school rate consistently in the top 10 in the world, and also one rate about 150. Believe me, there's a difference).
The high price of education has been fueled by the law of supply and demand. Supply has been relatively fixed for 50 years+, other than packing more kids in a room, yet the demand has risen 10 fold. Why? Several reasons. First, financial aid. Financial aid has flooded the education market with money and has distorted pricing, given the relatively inelastic supply of high quality higher education. Foreign students have added to the influx of money, especially since foreign students are more likely than US students to come from extreme wealth. Loans have also created great distortion, as students often do not have experience in weighing the marginal utility of education against additional debt.
3
Opening doors as in getting you an interview, but that's all. You still have to impress when you interview. In fact, from my personal experience interviewing many recruits for top management consulting firms and IT firms, having an impressive school on your resume can sometimes hurt more than help the candidate, because the expectations goes up exponentially. If you don't knock your interviewers' socks off, that job still goes to someone else.
1
One thing to keep in mind about the elite schools -- many of them have a large network of wealthy alumni who give back to the school though large donations. They also have a high enough profile that even non-alumni gift them with huge donations. That allows a number of these schools to give a free ride to students whose parents make below a certain income. This is an amazing opportunity for low income students who would not be able to afford one of the other schools mentioned in this article because their financial aid packages are not as generous. The elite schools also open doors that lower income students do not have the time or money to open themselves after graduation. Sometimes getting that great job or going to that great grad school right after graduation is the only option and the elite schools - particularly the Ivies - have the definite advantage in that regard. Take it from a former low income kid from Queens - going to an Ivy was the best thing that could have happened to me. I'm now a comfortably upper-middle class person in Queens - I own my own home, have a job I love and give generously to my alma mater because they gave so generously to me.
7
My daughter, who is a junior in college, and I are starting on this madness. Your column made me cry. The letter from the boy's parents is perfect and I will be writing one of those next spring. By the way, I went to San Diego State and I am a professor of anthropology at Cornell, the first female full professor in my department. Enough said.
4
As a parent of a college senior and high school senior, having been through tthis grueling process twice, I thank Frank Bruni for putting things in perspective. My first son was crushed by the rejections from his dream schools. He ended up at a school that was not one of his top choices but overall it was a perfect fit for him but he just could not realize at that time. He has thrived there and will be graduating this May. With my second son, the focus was on fit not ranking/status. He has already succeeded in being accepted to several fine institutions some with offers of a full scholarship. He is in the fortunate position to have many choices, The second time around has been less harrowing because we all have a better perspective and attitude.
2
I am a high school teacher who primarily teaches Advanced Placement students. Many of my students apply to eight, ten, twelve schools with such determination that it overtakes the curriculum. They show little interest in reading, discussion, writing or analysis; they do hound me to "look at" their application essays or write recommendation letters for their 12 colleges, plus scholarship letters, and letters recommending them for this competitive academic program or that honor class. Simply put, the whole college application process has become a racket: take the SAT three times; the ACT as well; have your teachers fix anything you might have done wrong.
The focus on data and testing contributes to this fiasco by assuring students that if they take a battery of AP courses, score well on x- number of tests and maintain a GPA above 3.9, they will be shoe- ins for Ivy Leagues or other prestigious schools, despite the lack of self- discipline,interest or aptitude for curriculum or coursework.
Congrats to some colleges, students and parents for opting out of an unnecessary rat race.
Call it payback for writing all those letters of rec (around 30 this year) but I plan to distribute this article in my classes tomorrow, read and discuss. Thank you Mr Bruni- perhaps this will stave off "Senioritis" for another week.
The focus on data and testing contributes to this fiasco by assuring students that if they take a battery of AP courses, score well on x- number of tests and maintain a GPA above 3.9, they will be shoe- ins for Ivy Leagues or other prestigious schools, despite the lack of self- discipline,interest or aptitude for curriculum or coursework.
Congrats to some colleges, students and parents for opting out of an unnecessary rat race.
Call it payback for writing all those letters of rec (around 30 this year) but I plan to distribute this article in my classes tomorrow, read and discuss. Thank you Mr Bruni- perhaps this will stave off "Senioritis" for another week.
6
Thank you, Mr. Bruni, for a thoughtful article. We experienced first-hand the ability of the right school to build confidence in our son. He attended a highly competitive high school, Newton North (near Boston), was bright enough to be in AP classes, but never tried very hard. In retrospect, I realize he may have opted out of the competition because he feared trying and failing.
Although my husband and I had both attended elite liberal arts colleges, our son never had any interest in that type of school. We agreed that such a school wouldn't be a good fit for him (although I felt a bit disappointed). He attended the University of Miami, where he excelled in the undergraduate business program. He was studying something he loved and felt really good at it. His confidence soared.
After graduation, he got a good job, then later applied to law school. With his excellent undergraduate and work record, he was accepted at one of the top ten ranked law schools and now has exactly the kind of law position he wanted. Interestingly, he felt that the teachers he had a UM were mostly better than those at his elite law school.
In our case, our son taught us about what was right for him. Thankfully, we didn't push back too hard.
Although my husband and I had both attended elite liberal arts colleges, our son never had any interest in that type of school. We agreed that such a school wouldn't be a good fit for him (although I felt a bit disappointed). He attended the University of Miami, where he excelled in the undergraduate business program. He was studying something he loved and felt really good at it. His confidence soared.
After graduation, he got a good job, then later applied to law school. With his excellent undergraduate and work record, he was accepted at one of the top ten ranked law schools and now has exactly the kind of law position he wanted. Interestingly, he felt that the teachers he had a UM were mostly better than those at his elite law school.
In our case, our son taught us about what was right for him. Thankfully, we didn't push back too hard.
4
While not everyone will obviously will attend an "elite" college (however defined)' this essay seems to deny the reality that graduates of less selective institutions have significantly less lifetime earnings than graduates of more selective institutions, even when both graduates have attended elite graduate schools. The essay also downplays the reality that "elite" banks, corporations and consulting firms only recruit at a small set of colleges and generally will not consider the graduates of non-elite institutions. Furthermore, the essay ignores the reality that elite consulting firms, for example, routinely request the SAT scores of even elite MBA graduates. The U.S. Is more and more resembling the rigid educational systems of Europe and Asia, and American parents and students are, in fact, acting rationally with their obsessions with "elite" institutions. Those "obsessions" prove to be fully attended with reality and citing individual exemptions merely proves the rule.
7
What you said may be true for the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic area, but it's simply not true in much of the rest of the country. You forget that all these top law and consulting firms and even many investment banks have branches all over the country. Outside of the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic, graduates of Ivy League or any east coast liberal arts schools are extremely rare. Most people who work for top firms outside of the NE went to their state's flagship or even smaller regional state universities. I'm speaking from experience. I worked for a top consulting firm and a top IT firm. Over 90% of people I met in these companies went to state universities.
Unlike the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic, in the rest of the country, public universities are among the oldest institutions and are the most prestigious, much more so than private colleges. Most of the top students in upper middle class neighborhoods aim for the local state flagship. I live in a neighborhood crawling with Microsoft, Amazon employees and attorneys, most of their kids aim for our local UW and WSU. The ones who go out of state typically go to CA, AZ, OR or CO state U's, including many gifted kids.
I've lived in the East coast before. The snobbery of the upper middle class in their preference for private LACs is thankfully, unique to the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic. People are much more chill here in the west coast. Which is why we are the center of innovation. The East Coast is hobbled by tradition. It's time to break free.
Unlike the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic, in the rest of the country, public universities are among the oldest institutions and are the most prestigious, much more so than private colleges. Most of the top students in upper middle class neighborhoods aim for the local state flagship. I live in a neighborhood crawling with Microsoft, Amazon employees and attorneys, most of their kids aim for our local UW and WSU. The ones who go out of state typically go to CA, AZ, OR or CO state U's, including many gifted kids.
I've lived in the East coast before. The snobbery of the upper middle class in their preference for private LACs is thankfully, unique to the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic. People are much more chill here in the west coast. Which is why we are the center of innovation. The East Coast is hobbled by tradition. It's time to break free.
9
Thanks for this fantastic article. Hopefully many students will keep it in mind when choosing schools to attend, as well as schools to apply too. Around five years ago, I attended a fantastic private high school, LREI. (I believe it was featured in the Times recently for it's attempts to discuss class, race and sexuality etc.) Interestingly enough, the majority of kids in my class did not apply to these high IVY League schools, but opted for the small liberal arts colleges that are considered ivy league. I ended up getting accepted into my top choice school, Hampshire College, certainly a school nowhere Ivy material but I went there at had an awful time. I ended up attending LaGuardia Community College where I will graduate in June this summer. I am writing because although wonderful this article has students attending schools like Scripps, Lehigh and a competitive state University as alternatives. However a huge majority of people that apply to these schools get rejected as well. If people in the country are upset about these fantastic schools then what does that say about our education culture?
At Community College I have had a better experience than at any school I have attended, I realized that true diversity is something my education experience lacked and therefore, many different perspectives as well. Most importantly, all the things that students can do at Ivy's I can do too.
At Community College I have had a better experience than at any school I have attended, I realized that true diversity is something my education experience lacked and therefore, many different perspectives as well. Most importantly, all the things that students can do at Ivy's I can do too.
4
In Denver as a public school teacher in a very large F/R lunch population (96%), most of the students I work with are headed to our local Auraria College system: University of Colorado at Denver, Metro State, or Community College of Denver. We also send a fair number of our kids to the University of Northern Colorado. Some go to CUBoulder, some go to the fine University of Denver, fewer head to CSU Fort Collins, a few to Regis, and if we are having a good year, maybe one will go to the Colorado School of Mines and one will head to Colorado College (my alma mater) on a full ride.
We try to maintain relationships with a lot of these kiddos because nearly 100% of them are first-generation college students. At first I wanted to see more kids apply to elite schools because I felt (and still feel) that they could not only succeed but that they'd offer a much-needed perspective on these campuses. I still want them to shoot for the stars, but I see now that this takes many forms, and for some, going to Metro is doing just that. Many won't live in the dorms because it's too expensive. Many will have to work 30+ hours a week, turning the "college experience" into a very rough time-management/sink-or-swim lesson. But they are doing what they must to ensure that they don't continue a life of poverty that they were raised in, and that is where their lives are very different from the examples you've provided. If only the kids in this story could truly see how lucky they really are.
We try to maintain relationships with a lot of these kiddos because nearly 100% of them are first-generation college students. At first I wanted to see more kids apply to elite schools because I felt (and still feel) that they could not only succeed but that they'd offer a much-needed perspective on these campuses. I still want them to shoot for the stars, but I see now that this takes many forms, and for some, going to Metro is doing just that. Many won't live in the dorms because it's too expensive. Many will have to work 30+ hours a week, turning the "college experience" into a very rough time-management/sink-or-swim lesson. But they are doing what they must to ensure that they don't continue a life of poverty that they were raised in, and that is where their lives are very different from the examples you've provided. If only the kids in this story could truly see how lucky they really are.
8
Amen. To get to go to college and concentrate ONLY on classes: what an extraordinary thing. And of course, some students who have the opportunity will not take advantage of it and will make it hard for themselves later.
4
I have a much more "prestigious" education, brand-wise, than my husband (we are both in our late 20s). Private high school, followed by "elite" college and graduate school. My husband went to public schools all the way through (including a so-called "public ivy" for college and a public, though top 5 in its field, school for grad school). At the end of the day, I'm convinced my husband was better prepared for what life has to throw at us all. He managed to teach himself business operations, working his way up to a director role at a cutting edge tech company. I am an analyst with the government and am doing fine, but do not have the "street sense" that he does at work, so I am struggling to deal with the politics of the workplace. The extent to which going to "elite" schools contributed to my struggles today I will never know, but being in those relatively coddled environments couldn't have helped.
3
The article hints at "surprise" that, Waterloo University, a "public school" in Canada (where essentially all schools are public) is considered by someone as more successful than private Stanford in providing successful start-ups.
Applicants to most Canadian Universities are not required to submit personal essays, if you are graduating from a Canadian high school primarily only grade 11 and 12 transcripts are required to be considered for entrance. The cost to attend is affordable, tuition is $6,000-$12,000 CDN at Waterloo depending upon what is studied (professional degrees such as engineering and computer science charge more reflecting anticipated hiring salaries). Many students qualify for government grants and loans and Waterloo offers CO-OP programs so students have the opportunity to contribute to paying for their education. One thing that I think makes Waterloo successful, is that it is inclusive financially for applicants and exclusive for academics. Entering engineering/computer science undergraduates had average of grade 12 (senior year) marks of over 90% and roughly 20% of those admitted had an average exceeding 95%. While Canada has its "elite" public schools, entrance is more focused on high school academic success (there are few private high schools in Canada) than exclusive access to attending "New Tier, a public school posh enough to pass for private" or exclusive and expensive private schools like Phillips Exeter.
Applicants to most Canadian Universities are not required to submit personal essays, if you are graduating from a Canadian high school primarily only grade 11 and 12 transcripts are required to be considered for entrance. The cost to attend is affordable, tuition is $6,000-$12,000 CDN at Waterloo depending upon what is studied (professional degrees such as engineering and computer science charge more reflecting anticipated hiring salaries). Many students qualify for government grants and loans and Waterloo offers CO-OP programs so students have the opportunity to contribute to paying for their education. One thing that I think makes Waterloo successful, is that it is inclusive financially for applicants and exclusive for academics. Entering engineering/computer science undergraduates had average of grade 12 (senior year) marks of over 90% and roughly 20% of those admitted had an average exceeding 95%. While Canada has its "elite" public schools, entrance is more focused on high school academic success (there are few private high schools in Canada) than exclusive access to attending "New Tier, a public school posh enough to pass for private" or exclusive and expensive private schools like Phillips Exeter.
3
We all should be concerned about the lack of support for public supported higher education. States have cut support for higher education across the board to save the top 1% and corporations some taxes. At the same time unprepared students find they must pay Harvard rate tuition to unproven 'private' schools run by money making corporations with adjunct underpaid temporary faculty. The entire higher education experience for too many students is about unaffordable education at 3rd rate for-profit schools backed by high interest loans.Note how this Congress will not support the President's call for free community colleges. This is the real threat to America's future.
4
In our heterogeneous, fragmented, post-Mad Men society, the main function of an elite Ivy (or equivalent) degree is as a status symbol or mark of social inclusion. I graduated one big public school (Univ. of Calif.) and one elite Ivy (Yale). The social experiences were different, but the intellectual experiences were the same.
6
Education, public and private, is perverted already.
The cart is definitely before the horse here. Admission to a prestige college is the be-all and end-all, often revealed in the names many schools adopt to designate their true mission: "xxxxx College Prep". Inside their doors their primary purpose isn't to discover and develop innate talent in kids just starting out in life. Nor is it to foster and encourage their creativity or curiosity. It's to provide employment opportunities for teachers and administrators who mold, sculpt and groom their students for ... what? The college admissions process. A cogent warning received by Dr. Ernest Sternglass (who later went on to invent much of the digital imaging technology we use today) concerned this fatal flaw in our education system: “Don’t go back to school. They will try to crush every bit of originality out of you.” This from Albert Einstein.
K-12 schools' primary focus on inculcating values like subordination to authority and social conformity does a profound disservice to students and teachers alike because both are evaluated not on the creative prodigies who emerge under their tutelage, but on test scores that might as well be used to grade eggs.
It has not escaped notice that many adults whose innate creativity profoundly changed our economy and culture never attended or graduated from college, and some were home-schooled.
The cart is definitely before the horse here. Admission to a prestige college is the be-all and end-all, often revealed in the names many schools adopt to designate their true mission: "xxxxx College Prep". Inside their doors their primary purpose isn't to discover and develop innate talent in kids just starting out in life. Nor is it to foster and encourage their creativity or curiosity. It's to provide employment opportunities for teachers and administrators who mold, sculpt and groom their students for ... what? The college admissions process. A cogent warning received by Dr. Ernest Sternglass (who later went on to invent much of the digital imaging technology we use today) concerned this fatal flaw in our education system: “Don’t go back to school. They will try to crush every bit of originality out of you.” This from Albert Einstein.
K-12 schools' primary focus on inculcating values like subordination to authority and social conformity does a profound disservice to students and teachers alike because both are evaluated not on the creative prodigies who emerge under their tutelage, but on test scores that might as well be used to grade eggs.
It has not escaped notice that many adults whose innate creativity profoundly changed our economy and culture never attended or graduated from college, and some were home-schooled.
1
I am glad to say that our kid had a realistic understanding of th elong odds of getting into a very top tier school. They applied to them, but others as well...and when rejection came from Brown and Northwestern there was no devastation.
In fact the eventual choice - University of Michigan - turned out to be a much better choice. Their academic qualifications fit the median U of M student perfectly. Unlike Brown and Northwestern, U of M has a major graduate school and they were able to graduate school type research work for 3 undergraduate years and during a gap year.
In fact the eventual choice - University of Michigan - turned out to be a much better choice. Their academic qualifications fit the median U of M student perfectly. Unlike Brown and Northwestern, U of M has a major graduate school and they were able to graduate school type research work for 3 undergraduate years and during a gap year.
2
Frank - you covered only one side of the process. A significant majority of students that attend the Ivies go on to very successful careers compared to a significant minority of those attending less prestigious schools. It has more to do with the individual than the college of course, but students that attend Ivies are more likely to focused and harder working - qualities they may have imbibed earlier than their colleagues that attend the less prestigious institutions. Life is a meritocracy and should be. America is an aspirational society and should remain so.
2
What happens is the" halo" effective...even the biggest dolt with a Harvard degree is presumed to be" brilliant" ... that admission is the golden ticket to success, even for those less competent than their public university competitors.
2
Interesting perspective, of course your parents attending and your ability to pay the full tuition may also have a lot to do with your acceptance. My daughter had little desire to attend an Ivy because of the behavior of the kids and parents that she saw when we toured the campus'. The kids who attend the ivies get a step up mostly because of who their parents are and the ability to to have large sums spent on them in their prep work.
2
Cheers for Frank Bruni's thoughtful oped. I work as a university counselor in Hong Kong where elite college mania is alive and well and taking an awful toll on too many of our students. Tomorrow, it will be in the inbox of our parents, students and staff. Thanks!
2
While I appreciate many reader's comments about how the school you attend does not matter, I have noticed many of these include stories along the lines of I (or my child) went to college at a no-name school and graduate school at a prestigious one. Isn't that just perpetuating the name-brand obsession problem high schoolers have now, just 4 years on after college?
4
Nice article. An expansion of your points related to the pros and cons of going to elite versus middle-tier universities can be appreciated in Malcolm Gladwell's book "David and Goliath", where the "big fish, little pond" situation (and the converse) are discussed. There is no question that while painful at the time, rejection from the Ivies will end up being a positive for some young adults, as they have in the very scenarios you highlight.
1
I taught math at one of those "elite" schools. (Wash. Univ. in St Louis) and my advice (in many cases) is not to "relax" if you didn't get into some of them, but CELEBRATE.
Celebrate because many schools are "elite" only in that they are experts in the rankings game. You don't move up in the rankings by educating. You move up because, as David Riesman observed in 1980,
"...advantage can still be taken of [students] by unscrupulous instructors and institutions...the student estate often does not grasp its own interests, and those who speak in its name are not always its friends.”
Advantage can be taken of students by catering to their "wants" to the detriment of their needs.
I warn students and parents not to take it for granted that a "elite school" will deliver an "elite education".
To learn about how many of them became "elite", I highly recommend the first few chapters of Kevin Carey's new book. "The End of College". (He mentions some places to be wary of by name - including Wash. U. in St. Louis)
For anyone who thinks, "Oh, it can't be that bad.", read my documented story that shows that it is much worse than you think, "A Tale Out of School". Its on my blog inside-higher-ed .
Celebrate because many schools are "elite" only in that they are experts in the rankings game. You don't move up in the rankings by educating. You move up because, as David Riesman observed in 1980,
"...advantage can still be taken of [students] by unscrupulous instructors and institutions...the student estate often does not grasp its own interests, and those who speak in its name are not always its friends.”
Advantage can be taken of students by catering to their "wants" to the detriment of their needs.
I warn students and parents not to take it for granted that a "elite school" will deliver an "elite education".
To learn about how many of them became "elite", I highly recommend the first few chapters of Kevin Carey's new book. "The End of College". (He mentions some places to be wary of by name - including Wash. U. in St. Louis)
For anyone who thinks, "Oh, it can't be that bad.", read my documented story that shows that it is much worse than you think, "A Tale Out of School". Its on my blog inside-higher-ed .
8
Thank you for writing this. I hope it eases the minds of parents of students waiting hear from colleges now. I have a nine-year old and already have the night sweats about how we will pay for college and where he'll go. Your article gives me a welcome pause, to think about how hard work, motivation and resiliency play a role in a successful education.
1
When I read this, what comes to mind is Malcolm Gladwell's article on big fish in a small pond. He perfectly articulates the point many of us are already familiar with- often what matters most is not the name of the college but the self-worth you acquire.
Gladwell wrote about a student who decided to go to a bigger-name college but once there was so intimidated by the knowledge of others that she decided to no longer pursue the career of her choice. She later argued and said that if she had gone to the smaller school, she probably would still be in the science field. It is interesting to read the comments here that strengthen this point. Sometimes being among intelligent students does not make you feel better, it makes you feel worse. The competitive nature enables students to engage in constant comparison and when they are facing other students-possibly one the smartest student in the country- they are left with a struggle of self-worth and accomplishment.
Maybe some applicants ought to read the books on success and outliers before starting college.
Gladwell wrote about a student who decided to go to a bigger-name college but once there was so intimidated by the knowledge of others that she decided to no longer pursue the career of her choice. She later argued and said that if she had gone to the smaller school, she probably would still be in the science field. It is interesting to read the comments here that strengthen this point. Sometimes being among intelligent students does not make you feel better, it makes you feel worse. The competitive nature enables students to engage in constant comparison and when they are facing other students-possibly one the smartest student in the country- they are left with a struggle of self-worth and accomplishment.
Maybe some applicants ought to read the books on success and outliers before starting college.
3
Fun article...puts things in their proper order.
It is important to teach our children about rejection, not to define yourself by other people's opinion. Rejection and its dark brother failure is as omnipresent as death and taxes. The sooner our children can accept all the trials of an active and satisfying life the healthier they will be.
Remember a baseball player that gets a hit 3 out of 10 at bats makes a good living, perhaps goes to the Hall of Fame. Trite but true.
It is important to teach our children about rejection, not to define yourself by other people's opinion. Rejection and its dark brother failure is as omnipresent as death and taxes. The sooner our children can accept all the trials of an active and satisfying life the healthier they will be.
Remember a baseball player that gets a hit 3 out of 10 at bats makes a good living, perhaps goes to the Hall of Fame. Trite but true.
1
What I tell students is this: "A Corvette may be a nice ride, but a Honda can get you to your destination too." Thank you for the message that a quality education is not limited to the elites. I teach science at a fine SUNY school with excellent students. My students excel when they get to medical school and graduate school, and frequently tell me that they are out-performing their Ivy league colleagues.
6
From the headline that was on the front page, I was naive enough to think that this column just might be about the fact that press organs such as the NYT relentlessly focus on admissions to a few elite schools, despite the fact that the vast majority of US high school students do not apply to such schools and, in fact, many students are happy to get into a typical large state school or even (shock!) to attend community college while living at home.
It's quite tiresome to see this parade of articles that obsess over the concerns of the upper middle class while being oblivious to the fact that these concerns are entirely different from those of most people in this country. If you're going to obsess over Harvard/Yale/Stanford, fine, but could you at least acknowledge that not everybody does this or even has the luxury of considering such obsessions?
It's quite tiresome to see this parade of articles that obsess over the concerns of the upper middle class while being oblivious to the fact that these concerns are entirely different from those of most people in this country. If you're going to obsess over Harvard/Yale/Stanford, fine, but could you at least acknowledge that not everybody does this or even has the luxury of considering such obsessions?
9
One new and disturbing development to college admissions not mentioned in this article is the addition of social media to the mix. The first thing kids do when they get their acceptance letter is post the news on Facebook. Everyone in their peer group now immediately knows who is going where. Now students who don't get top institutions not only are disappointed at the rejection, they feel the public humiliation. Years ago, it may have taken months to learn who was going where...now this personal information is spread instantaneously.
5
We are in this phase now. We didn't focus on Ivy League or what might be called the true elite but we did focus on Princeton Review's top 377 and, within that, explored highly ranked business schools as my son is headed in that direction. He applied to 6 business schools that met the criteria. Places like Clemson, Penn State, Virginia Tech and Universities of South Carolina and Delaware. We thought a couple would be "stretch" but he got in all of them. And so we started fretting for a time that we could have set the bar higher. And you know what? We could have. But he has 6 very fine schools to choose from and now he has the opportunity to make the one he chooses a special experience and a path to what happens after school.
2
For once, I agree with everything you have said.
How many students, once admitted to their top schools, burn out quickly, have mental health issues, or just need more time between high school and college to get it together. Too many.
Even when things go well, the outcomes are vastly different than expectation. Many with elite degrees go on to very ordinary jobs and lives that are indistinguishable from the average college grad.
How many students, once admitted to their top schools, burn out quickly, have mental health issues, or just need more time between high school and college to get it together. Too many.
Even when things go well, the outcomes are vastly different than expectation. Many with elite degrees go on to very ordinary jobs and lives that are indistinguishable from the average college grad.
1
This is really a great piece...thanks so much for the timely presentation of a yearly message that should go out to parents and their children getting ready to move on to college. I have been in higher education since the day I left high school, now having been a faculty member at a private college for the past 30 years (after undergrad, Masters and PhD stops along the way). I have 2 daughters that could have attended the college that I am at for free, but it wasn't the right place for them. They both ended up at a state school that had the right programs and atmosphere for them to succeed and move on in their lives. It is really important for parents and students to find that match....to spend some time really thinking about a college for its educational and co-curricular programs, not just its name. Being rejected by a school or two is also not a bad thing for a young person to experience...it is character building to say the least!
2
This column is sensible, as far as it goes. But, there is an unstated assumption that every American 18 year old has to head off to a 4 year college. In reality, there are alternatives to college, and they could usefully improved and expanded. The biggest place for potential improvement would be reversing the many decades-long dumbing-down of public high schools. Doing this would also benefit the college-bound because universities would need less emphasis on remedial catching-up op what once upon a time was learned in secondary schools.
5
Many, many years ago, as a teenager, studying at a liberal arts college in India, I was encouraged to try for the impossible -- to apply as a transfer student to US universities. I had no clue, about anything, and I knew even less about the US educational system. I applied to three Ivy League schools and, to my amazement, I was accepted at Columbia in New York, with a scholarship that paid my tuition. But, that was it. I had to find money for everything else, myself. My parents couldn't afford to pay for anything. I remember being too afraid to move to New York but even more afraid not to do so. I went in the end and started what was an odyssey of epic divergences. Utter poverty combined with a personal awakening such as I would never have experienced had I not ventured. I am not sure why this is important in the context, except that, in retrospect, I feel so incredibly lucky to have had this chance which so many, who try so very hard, do not get. And I wasn't even in the running, for anything, until the day I applied, on a whim. Go figure!
2
I was somehow lucky enough to be accepted to every one of the 6-7 college I applied to about 20 years ago. I applied to only top flight academic schools, but only one Ivy, and I was not stary-eyed about "the name". I chose to go there after student weekend when I happened on a bunch of comic band misfits late one evening far from the night's organized events. For a small public school graduate, freshman year was a sorry experience of comparing credentials with the polished elite. It quickly became apparent that professors also were only interested in students who already had coverred the "101" material in high school. That was the worst part. But sophomor year I matched into the "misfit" house (which no longer exists due to randomization) and from that point things were much better. With the solid support of down-to-earth friends, I had confidence to get involved with some extracurriculars and also hold on to a decent GPA by working the course catalogue (anything that attracted pre-med's was a no-go). Without much effort, I got a job with a consulting firm after graduation and over the years have tapered down from the peak of go-go NYC to laid back suburban stay-at-home parent. A cousin of mine attended State U. because it was th only place his dad let him apply. His path was quite the opposite. He graduated to life back home and a job as a temp. But from there he set about cutting his teeth and climbing the design ladder. Today he runs his own shop in NYC.
1
I was on the lower end of the top tier of my senior class. I spent my first 2 years at college miserable after not being able to get off the wait list of one of the Ivies.
Proof of my college attendance is in the form of 2 monthly bills. The payments kill me every month but I am grateful whenever I hear my friends tell me their bills are at least 5 times what mine are.
Students continue to be in the dark about the cost of college. I myself just thought those bills would pay for themselves. I find it inexcusable they still don't have a clue after this country went through the worst crisis of underwater home lending it has ever seen. Those bills are there six months after graduating. If you plan on going to one of the Ivies or equivalent, plan on that monthly cost being at least $1000 a month. Yes you can elect to have IBR but you'll still be paying a huge tax bill on forgiveness "income" in 25 years. Also, the same percentage of gross income is calculated whether you live in an expensive city like NYC or in the sticks of Texas for IBR. You can work in the public sector getting the remaining loans written off after 10 straight years being there but the trend of purging of public sector workers doesn't make that promising either.
There're literally folks who didn't really think about the cost of a "reach school" when they chose to attend. They are literally impoverished and homeless now.
Proof of my college attendance is in the form of 2 monthly bills. The payments kill me every month but I am grateful whenever I hear my friends tell me their bills are at least 5 times what mine are.
Students continue to be in the dark about the cost of college. I myself just thought those bills would pay for themselves. I find it inexcusable they still don't have a clue after this country went through the worst crisis of underwater home lending it has ever seen. Those bills are there six months after graduating. If you plan on going to one of the Ivies or equivalent, plan on that monthly cost being at least $1000 a month. Yes you can elect to have IBR but you'll still be paying a huge tax bill on forgiveness "income" in 25 years. Also, the same percentage of gross income is calculated whether you live in an expensive city like NYC or in the sticks of Texas for IBR. You can work in the public sector getting the remaining loans written off after 10 straight years being there but the trend of purging of public sector workers doesn't make that promising either.
There're literally folks who didn't really think about the cost of a "reach school" when they chose to attend. They are literally impoverished and homeless now.
2
One of the most difficult aspects of our daughter's college selection came from the reaction of various adult acquaintances in our community in upstate New York. Their regional bias shows ignorance. Our daughter was accepted to a nice mix of northeastern colleges, some more prestigious than others. She ended up selecting Rice University in Houston. When I excitedly shared this news with various locals, the first three people I told expressed confusion and dismay that anyone would choose a school in Texas.
Now she's thriving as a junior there. She's had an incredible academic, social and internship experience (not to mention missing all the horrific winter weather). We love visiting Houston. Grown-ups who should know better often are the worst actors in this process.
Now she's thriving as a junior there. She's had an incredible academic, social and internship experience (not to mention missing all the horrific winter weather). We love visiting Houston. Grown-ups who should know better often are the worst actors in this process.
7
Everything written here is true and useful. But the fact remains that the Ivies are the surest way to open doors to power. that's why parents are obsessed with getting their kid into them. Their brand name is valuable here and abroad.
The two examples give escaped from conformity. But conformity is the norm.
The two examples give escaped from conformity. But conformity is the norm.
4
The same "name" mania also now applies to post graduate education. I have known and worked with many students who have been rejected by medical schools that, like undergraduate admissions offices, are obsessed with "metrics." Many of these students have persevered and ultimately gone to medical school or have chosen other paths (PA, NP, health media consulting) and many other careers and have had happy and productive lives. The same mania that drives college applications continues on through college- obsession with GPA, the right blend of activities etc to get to "the graduate school." In the case of medical schools, the continued reliance on basic sciences (organic chemistry? physics? calculus? etc) that have NO relationship to the practice of medicine points to a need for a complete re-engineering of a process that creates one outcome- undergraduate stress, competition and cynicism about college and education.
6
Once again Mr. Bruni's article shows a classic flaw in the college admissions process: the inability to convey to students aspiring to "elite" colleges the fact that having excellent grades, excellent SATs and lots of extracurricular activities is NOT going to gain them admission. Students with this profile are a dime a dozen to admissions committees, and indeed, without a legacy preference, even the absolutely best and brightest students in our country will all too often be denied admission to Stanford, Harvard, etc. The fact that Matt had his sights set on the big name schools demonstrates the extent to which he was misled about his chances during the college admissions process. Had he been confronted with actual facts in this regard, he would have been much more sanguine about his rejection letters.
Then again, maybe not. Studies of how our brains work demonstrate that we're apparently hard-wired to believe in miracles.
Then again, maybe not. Studies of how our brains work demonstrate that we're apparently hard-wired to believe in miracles.
9
Frank, thanks for the article. Here in our family we know very well the virtues of a value education, paying in state tuition for three students at UNC-CH and one at N.C. State with all finding a way to thrive in each situation (one will be an incoming freshman next year with eyes on UNC's esteemed Kenan-Flagler business school). But I can't help but think of the Ivies and their counterpart elite universities and several public universities which have gotten on the bandwagon of admitting a huge percentage of foreign nationals (many from China) who are these product of corrupt standardized testing and who are simply displacing otherwise qualified American students. The schools prefer these students because they are not eligible for financial aid and pay full freight tuition and fees. Many of these students are children of ruling elite who go back to their home countries to simply become part of the ruling elite structure, using their American education subsidized essentially by the huge research grants received by schools like Harvard, Stanford, etc. When will this madness end? Perhaps a new form of visa that would at least require/allow them to work in the U.S. for ten years post-graduation. When I post a comment of this nature I am often accused of being a xenophobe, but I am simply trying to point out how America is hurting itself with it's most valuable commodity, higher education.
13
I have a high school junior who, on paper, has very good college prospects. Who knows what next year will bring. Her college office is great, and emphasizes the "fit" and eventual experience of college over prestige and rankings. Even with all of those positives, she is all but burned out by the process. She is bombarded by marketing mail from colleges and universities, "surveyed" by the educational testing entities whenever she registers for a standardized test, and overwhelmed by the expense of four years of college study. High school has become not much more than a four year audition for college, with college prospects discussed from moment one. College has become akin to a corporate juggernaut - lots of money is being made and spent, while college is reduced to a product, along with the kids who are applying. We were all much better off when the college experience was more about the responsibilities and thrills of greater personal independence and acquiring knowledge for the joy of learning than an expensive and deflating race for perceived status.
2
Frank is correct. The magnificent obsession with elite schools is unhealthy and unneeded and it begs the question is it the student or the parent? Having recently retired from a career as a research scientist and advised a considerable number of undergraduate and graduate students, in the final analysis, the name of the college has little if any bearing on either the success of your future career or your ability. Your degrees are merely the learners permits and drivers licenses. Perhaps the social networks for business degrees etc. the name of the school may make some difference but not for most. Don't forget that not all students have to go to college.
4
Brilliantly incisive commentary on today's insane college admissions process. We got through this many years ago but the perspective you provide should be kept in mind by all families dealing with these pressures. And for parents of preschoolers who are already worried about getting their kids into the perfect private kindergarten that will set them on the track for the Ivies.
3
There is so much I could say about this wonderfully written piece: that it's spot on, that is resurrects painful memories that have followed me for the last 25 years. But maybe all I can impart is this: that I have long thought that not only is there too much emphasis and flawed thinking in pushing kids into elite schools, but also that kids go to college much too young, before they truly appreciate its value. My advice to kids and parents feeling the pressure: take time off. Maybe a year, maybe five. Maybe even longer. Do something you value and believe in, no matter what it is.
Here is my grandfather's story: a child of Irish and Welsh immigrants with no education, he graduated high school valedictorian at 15 in 1911. He read Latin and French fluently, mathematically gifted. Went to UPenn to study agriculture. Hated it, dropped out. Joined the army and fought in WWI. Came home and passed the bar at about 25yrs old. Practiced law without a college degree (didn't need one then), became a success. Sent his son to Harvard. One yr after dad graduated from Harvard, a girlfriend called him up and said "strange, someone with your exact name just graduated this year too." Granddad had quietly gone back to school and gotten a Harvard degree on the sly at 62 years old. Despite his success, he felt it was time to finally get that accreditation. True education has no schedule. The value you have in the world should not be tied to a piece of paper.
Here is my grandfather's story: a child of Irish and Welsh immigrants with no education, he graduated high school valedictorian at 15 in 1911. He read Latin and French fluently, mathematically gifted. Went to UPenn to study agriculture. Hated it, dropped out. Joined the army and fought in WWI. Came home and passed the bar at about 25yrs old. Practiced law without a college degree (didn't need one then), became a success. Sent his son to Harvard. One yr after dad graduated from Harvard, a girlfriend called him up and said "strange, someone with your exact name just graduated this year too." Granddad had quietly gone back to school and gotten a Harvard degree on the sly at 62 years old. Despite his success, he felt it was time to finally get that accreditation. True education has no schedule. The value you have in the world should not be tied to a piece of paper.
8
Please take the time to listen to who you are writing about. This is such a small portion of the young people in the country that frankly it's sickening to read it. i'm old enough to remember it was not that big a thing to get into Stanford, even as a transfer. (Believe it or not). You are writing to a generation of parents my age (56) and younger who are so neurotic about this particular issue they are passing it down to their kids. It's great to have all these opportunities, but frankly I do not see so much good coming into greater U.S. society because the top tier has them. I'm very far left politically, and certainly support a young person having the opportunity to work with the poor in Tijuana, but right now where is this getting the country in the bigger scheme of things? It's very nice for the most coddled kids in history, meanwhile the K-12 schools that most kids have to attend are collapsing. More Gilded Age preciousness
13
Compassion, decency, honor, persistence, glad-hearted ness will never be rated by SATs. I assure you, they are more important in most circumstances than raw computing power. Whatever college one attends, becoming an honorable person is more important than having an "Ivy" degree. Don't we all cry at the end of The Wizard of Oz when the Scarecrow gets his diploma? There's a reason for that! He earned his by developing wisdom connected to caring connected to implementation. Greatness breathes fully from wholes not parts. It's the head, heart and soul, together, that makes a full person. These cannot be "found" at elite institutions or common places either, they are only inside us. If college doesn't promote finding our ability to care about the world, then it has failed the student and its mission.
5
Successful college education can be a transformative experience. When individuals are matched with the right environment they have the opportunity to become a better version of themselves as young adults. Part of that experience is the process of self-discovery: Who am I? What do I want to do with my life?
This process does not stop at graduation from high school or from college. It continues throughout life.
Admissions officers at "prestige" colleges have far more qualified high school applicants who are largely indistinguishable from each other by grades, test scores, activities, and accomplishments than they can admit to the next Freshman class.
In they end the admissions office will hopefully create a class of students with enough variety in talents and interests to pursue more options than just "Finance" as a major.
This process does not stop at graduation from high school or from college. It continues throughout life.
Admissions officers at "prestige" colleges have far more qualified high school applicants who are largely indistinguishable from each other by grades, test scores, activities, and accomplishments than they can admit to the next Freshman class.
In they end the admissions office will hopefully create a class of students with enough variety in talents and interests to pursue more options than just "Finance" as a major.
3
I think that part of the problem are misguided high-school counselors who tell students to apply to the top schools. Both parents and students look up to these counselors for advice because they are supposed to be the professionals in the field of applying to college.
2
Good advice Frank. Admissions committees are notoriously arbitrary and dealing with quotas, legacies and the like. One child should not let the decisions of such a group play upon emotions so dramatically. Better to take the best monetary deal a university offers.
3
Ordinary staff of personnel department tends to employ new members by seeing the name of Universities that they graduate from because it is easy way for his duty. But competent staff tends to employ new members by examining every aspects not depending on graduate universities.
The experience of failures is important for young people. It sometimes turns to be their properties in society. Young people, who have not experienced a failure in school or university, tend to feel a big stress in the real world which is so complex.
The experience of failures is important for young people. It sometimes turns to be their properties in society. Young people, who have not experienced a failure in school or university, tend to feel a big stress in the real world which is so complex.
5
I find it interesting that no one has mentioned looking for a program the student is interested in at whichever college or university it may be. My older son looked strictly for one kind of program and ended up applying to two Ivies and seven state and private schools around the country. He ended up in an excellent program at a non-Ivy private school. My other son looked specifically for programs in his area of interest and ended up studying abroad. We as parents do a disservice to our children if we don't encourage them to look farther than universify name or ranking and into specific programs that fit their interests.
4
Actually, "success" is defined as achieving objectives. But that doesn't require that the objectives be devised in the womb: those whose achievement have the most meaning to an individual may very well appear later in life, beyond adolescence or even early adulthood.
But I find Frank's curiosity at the REAL Spring Madness, when kids (and their parents) agonize over admissions to our elite colleges and universities. There's no cause for curiosity: admission to -- and eventual graduation from -- our top schools is presumed to be a ticket at least to the upper-middle-class. That it's certainly not a guarantee of such means little to young people who have so little to lose and so much to gain.
But this is a valuable op-ed in that it illustrates options that are open to kids who try and don't succeed at a very early objective that might not turn out to be so central to the outcome of their lives.
But I find Frank's curiosity at the REAL Spring Madness, when kids (and their parents) agonize over admissions to our elite colleges and universities. There's no cause for curiosity: admission to -- and eventual graduation from -- our top schools is presumed to be a ticket at least to the upper-middle-class. That it's certainly not a guarantee of such means little to young people who have so little to lose and so much to gain.
But this is a valuable op-ed in that it illustrates options that are open to kids who try and don't succeed at a very early objective that might not turn out to be so central to the outcome of their lives.
1
What inceedibly wise parents to anticipate their sons reaction to the inevitability of college rejections. They did more to support their son with a simple heartfelt message of unconditional love. There can be no greater gift.
Matt is one lucky kid but so are his parents. In one fell swoop as a family they have demystified the college mystique, which only survives on the impossible belief that there is only one school on earth able to bring out the best in one.
There's a wonderful saying that " wherever I go, there I am". An elite college can only impart knowledge and hopefully a love of learning. But it can't cure ones psche or alter the balance if one's internal grit unless the student is willing.
Matt's were savvy enough to see that any decent school was going to be just fine since Matt had already done the legwork of working hard to get what he thought he wanted.
Just not necessarily what he needed.
Matt is one lucky kid but so are his parents. In one fell swoop as a family they have demystified the college mystique, which only survives on the impossible belief that there is only one school on earth able to bring out the best in one.
There's a wonderful saying that " wherever I go, there I am". An elite college can only impart knowledge and hopefully a love of learning. But it can't cure ones psche or alter the balance if one's internal grit unless the student is willing.
Matt's were savvy enough to see that any decent school was going to be just fine since Matt had already done the legwork of working hard to get what he thought he wanted.
Just not necessarily what he needed.
3
I am a student at an Ivy League school and I agree 110% with Frank. At my school, I constantly feel inadequate in comparison to my peers. This is not only because of the utter excellence of all of them (something that I expected and thought would inspire me), but because of the competitive, individualistic, and perfectionist atmosphere that prevails. I have a feeling that this atmosphere is largely a result of a drastic lack of "grit" that results from rejection of any sort.
While my current school was one of my top choices, I did not apply Early Decision and was rejected from many other schools. Throughout my high school career, I faced rejection in various parts of my life. My parents supported me through every failure, drilling into my head that rejection is a part of life and that my self-worth is not dependent upon anyone else's standards of success. I succeeded in other parts, learning that by working hard I could earn the grades and honors that I deserved. But now I find that no matter how driven and passionate and excited about my classes I am, the competitive nature of my school creates an oppressive environment in which it is difficult to stand out at all. I have learned to accept that there are people who pull all-nighters in the library "at least once a week" (according to someone in one of my classes), and that it's OKAY to prioritize mental health at the expense of grades.
While my current school was one of my top choices, I did not apply Early Decision and was rejected from many other schools. Throughout my high school career, I faced rejection in various parts of my life. My parents supported me through every failure, drilling into my head that rejection is a part of life and that my self-worth is not dependent upon anyone else's standards of success. I succeeded in other parts, learning that by working hard I could earn the grades and honors that I deserved. But now I find that no matter how driven and passionate and excited about my classes I am, the competitive nature of my school creates an oppressive environment in which it is difficult to stand out at all. I have learned to accept that there are people who pull all-nighters in the library "at least once a week" (according to someone in one of my classes), and that it's OKAY to prioritize mental health at the expense of grades.
35
I attended Yale 30 years ago and many days felt inadequate: I was a tiny fish in a big pond, but I learned from the bigger fish and became a stronger swimmer. SAT caveats aside, almost everyone at Yale has great SAT scores and ranks in the top 10% of his or her HS class. A 600 Math SAT score would place a student in the lowest quartile of matriculated Yale freshmen (probably close to the 4th percentile) and 100 points below the average Exeter senior (average 712).
http://admissions.yale.edu/node/2040/attachment
http://admissions.yale.edu/node/2040/attachment
What you call *individualistic* is actually incredible selfishness and self importance. It existed when I was at my no 1 undergraduate college 60 years ago and it existed when my children were in college 35 years ago and it exists today when my grandchildren are in college. The sense of being superior comes with an *elite* education. We see it demonstrated daily in our government.
3
Yup, that's exactly what we're hearing from kids who got into ivies last spring. They are not happy. EVERYTHING is a competition and it's no fun. They thought they would work hard to get in and then enjoy rigorous classes with other bright kids. Classes are fine but after class, the competition to make the glee club or chess club is grueling. No wonder so many kids at these wonderful schools jump out the windows.
1
How sad is it that we need these reminders every year of how horrible the college admissions process is and how little it matters in the end? (Unless you're one of a few thousand ultra-elites who need the connections of Harvard and Yale, or the child prodigies who need the research facilities of MIT and Caltech.)
My experience is probably not the most normal one, though. I'm from a smallish town in Indiana. I applied to 2 colleges in 2001: Northwestern and Indiana University. I got into Northwestern, to this day I don't know how. And I had a wonderful time. I met more different types of people than I knew existed in the world. I got a great education (and a little humility), and I even joined a club sports team for 4 years, and I had never been invested in sports before in my life.
So yes, I got into a great college.
But here's the thing: I would have been just as happy at IU. They have a beautiful campus, top-notch undergrad (and grad) school programs, and more clubs, activities, and causes than could be explored in a lifetime.
The college you go to means nothing in and of itself. It only matters what you put into it during your time there. An enthusiastic student will always have a fulfilling time, whether they go Stanford or Bowling Green State University. A student who has no sense of themselves or what they want after 4 years, at Harvard or anywhere else, will always have problems.
So to quote Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: DON'T PANIC!
My experience is probably not the most normal one, though. I'm from a smallish town in Indiana. I applied to 2 colleges in 2001: Northwestern and Indiana University. I got into Northwestern, to this day I don't know how. And I had a wonderful time. I met more different types of people than I knew existed in the world. I got a great education (and a little humility), and I even joined a club sports team for 4 years, and I had never been invested in sports before in my life.
So yes, I got into a great college.
But here's the thing: I would have been just as happy at IU. They have a beautiful campus, top-notch undergrad (and grad) school programs, and more clubs, activities, and causes than could be explored in a lifetime.
The college you go to means nothing in and of itself. It only matters what you put into it during your time there. An enthusiastic student will always have a fulfilling time, whether they go Stanford or Bowling Green State University. A student who has no sense of themselves or what they want after 4 years, at Harvard or anywhere else, will always have problems.
So to quote Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: DON'T PANIC!
7
Thanks, Frank, for this insightful article. My very bright teen daughter fought us all of last year to leave her prestigious private high school and home school herself. We worried and resisted, with our greatest concerns focused on the easier path to the Ivies she would be giving up. But she persisted relentlessly, and this, her sophomore year, she is defining her own educational path - one that is rigorous, meaningful and focused. She takes classes online, at a community college, and independently, and is confident that when the time comes, she will find many institutions of higher learning that will be thrilled to have her and will provide her with just what she needs, socially and intellectually, to take the next steps in her life. I don't know where she gained such wisdom in her young life, but she will be delighted to read your article and find confirmation there.
1
Your daughter is a remarkable young woman. It takes courage to "dropout" and homeschool oneself. She clearly has a good head on her shoulders and knows what she wants. Fret not, many top universities are now accepting homeschoolers, especially Stanford. As long as she does well on her standardized tests, she will get into an excellent school.
In reading through other readers' comments (not all 558) I see a couple others share my two main thought. Where a student attends college matters enormously because of the other students at the college. Their college friends and peers will influence how they spend their time in college, their values, who they know, often who they marry(!), and ultimately their alumni network. Living in Silicon Valley, I see the tremendous benefits of being a Stanford alum. It is so much more than 4 years. It lasts a life time. Even if you took away the Stanford name, it's the people you meet there who make a huge difference in your life. Does this happen at public colleges and universities? Of course. So while I agree 100% that the college admissions process is "mad" and our teens suffer as a result, I think for some it is highly rational to aim for an elite school, knowing that attendance will influence their lives in countless ways.
11
In all the ways that are important to being a good person, any college or university can provide the influences and opportunities for a student to grow and succeed. Students who are good people find other good people wherever they go.
7
Sorry about the typo above. I was going to write about two topics but decided to focus on one and forgot to go back and edit my first sentence.
1
As a professor at a non-name-brand university, I am always appalled by the media's coverage of college admissions and the effects this has on freaking out high schoolers and their parents.
The fact is more than 50% of universities in the US accept more than 50% of their applicants. A student who could just squeak into a name-brand university could come to my school with scholarships/financial aid covering 75% of costs, have access to honors programs, and get access to largely the same opportunities for career prep and college experience.
We cap our classes at 30, so no huge faceless lectures. We are used to working with "first in their family to go to college" students, so we know how to hustle for them and provide professional development. We are starting to place our students in internships and entry-level positions at top employers. Our kids do just as well and the employers see that.
5 years out of school, no one cares where you went to college (with possible exceptions for super-elite schools). They care if you can excel at your job. You can get those skills in a wide variety of places. My brother-in-law went to community college and is now an executive at a global IT services firm, supervising scores of Ivy-Leaguers. He is smart, hard-working, and a self-motivated life-long learner. Didn't need to go to Harvard for that. Once he got a firm foothold in his industry, no one cares he's a community college grad. No one.
The fact is more than 50% of universities in the US accept more than 50% of their applicants. A student who could just squeak into a name-brand university could come to my school with scholarships/financial aid covering 75% of costs, have access to honors programs, and get access to largely the same opportunities for career prep and college experience.
We cap our classes at 30, so no huge faceless lectures. We are used to working with "first in their family to go to college" students, so we know how to hustle for them and provide professional development. We are starting to place our students in internships and entry-level positions at top employers. Our kids do just as well and the employers see that.
5 years out of school, no one cares where you went to college (with possible exceptions for super-elite schools). They care if you can excel at your job. You can get those skills in a wide variety of places. My brother-in-law went to community college and is now an executive at a global IT services firm, supervising scores of Ivy-Leaguers. He is smart, hard-working, and a self-motivated life-long learner. Didn't need to go to Harvard for that. Once he got a firm foothold in his industry, no one cares he's a community college grad. No one.
24
In my experience both at work and outside of work, almost no one ever asks anyone where they went to college. All everyone cares about is how well you do your job, and how nice of a person you are.
1
I have always believed that it is the right school, not the best school, that is what's important. My ex-wife and I encouraged school work and reading and did not stress about college admissions. My son went to Yale (thanks to help from their large endowment), did lots of volunteer work in the New Haven community, and now works for a non-profit in D.C. focusing on helping young people. My daughter when to Philadelphia University and now works for a web based pet supply company and does volunteer work with pet adoptions. We are proud of them both! Most important they are both happy young adults.
4
One major aspect of the anxiety-fueled frenzy for a top college was not touched upon in the article. It's not merely the belief that admission to a good college will automatically provide a happier, more successful life. (The correlation, as Mr. Bruni pointed out, is not that linear). It's parental narcissism and status consciousness. Admission to an Ivy League caliber institution provides a parental lifetime of bragging rights: at cocktail parties with friends, to the holier-than-thou relative, even to putting a decal in the rear window of the SUV, so the entire village knows you're the proud parent of a Stanford kid. This does the the child no favors, but that's a subject for another column.
9
It also provides bragging rights to the insecure alumni. I've met people, who upon first meeting (and even subsequently), within minutes, find it important to mention their ivy league credentials, a red flag if there ever was one.
2
I remember when I first saw those rear car window decals when I visited the east coast. They are everywhere! How tacky. No right thinking person in the west coast would be caught dead putting their kids' college decal on their car window(and those who do are usually east coast transplants). Putting an HYPS decal on your car is especially embarrassing.
1
It is so refreshing living in the south where LSU flags fly proudly from some of the nicest houses in town. We have raised our children to look at college as a tool for life, not the endpoint. The letter that Matt's parents wrote was sweet, but Matt should have been told this since he was a baby. The fact that it was made such a big deal by his parents ("on the night before you receive your first college response" ...as if it is the night before his wedding or something actually important) is sort of telling- obviously he had been raised to think Ivies are a Big Deal.
There is a college out there for pretty much everyone. And studies have shown time and again that bright students who work hard will have the same outcomes as those who went to Ivies. The biggest issue is cost, and I am glad Mr. Bruni points out that the majority of students care much more about just being able to afford any accredited school. This obsession with brand and status is something that belongs to a very vocal and - let's face it - whiny minority.
There is a college out there for pretty much everyone. And studies have shown time and again that bright students who work hard will have the same outcomes as those who went to Ivies. The biggest issue is cost, and I am glad Mr. Bruni points out that the majority of students care much more about just being able to afford any accredited school. This obsession with brand and status is something that belongs to a very vocal and - let's face it - whiny minority.
2
This whole Ivy worship is much more of an east coast phenomenon. Most upper middle class families in the Midwest, west and especially the south are mostly concerned with getting their kids into the local flagship universities. People in TX are especially proud of their state Us. The Univ. of TX system has the second largest endowment after Harvard. Both UT Austin and Texas A&M are top destinations for top high school seniors in TX. Many parents in the South are especially weary of the leftist ideals espoused by the Ivies and have no interest in having their kids indoctrinated.
2
There is no shortage of progressives at southern universities.
And I am not sure that Ivies do espouse that many leftist ideals beyond the most superficial. Rather, they espouse the ideals of ensuring that elite networks are available for children of the elite. For example, 96% of American households make less than 200K per year. At Harvard, 45.6% of students come from households making over 200K. I myself went to a "baby Ivy" in the northeast, and the average income of my fellow students was exceptionally high. Despite what the university claimed, the message was clear: wealth and exclusivity = superiority.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/1/26/diversity-lack-figures-evide...
And I am not sure that Ivies do espouse that many leftist ideals beyond the most superficial. Rather, they espouse the ideals of ensuring that elite networks are available for children of the elite. For example, 96% of American households make less than 200K per year. At Harvard, 45.6% of students come from households making over 200K. I myself went to a "baby Ivy" in the northeast, and the average income of my fellow students was exceptionally high. Despite what the university claimed, the message was clear: wealth and exclusivity = superiority.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/1/26/diversity-lack-figures-evide...
4
Craig and Diana's letter are providing meaningful insights to parents like me whose only aim is to coach the kids for Charter schools. Ivy League or Top 10....
Thank you !
Thank you !
I usually don't read opinion pieces. I try to form my own. I am so happy that I took the time to read this. It is highly inspiring and there is an important message here for all...not just 18 year-olds. We'll done!
1
Having had 4 sons go through this process (with #3 at one of the schools mentioned in the first sentence of the article) -- and knowing countless others who've done the same -- what I've found is that kids generally/organically end up at the schools right for them. What's sad is many kids blindly apply to Ivies without even knowing why. Prestige? Grandpa went there? So their parents can have bragging rights? I went to an average-ish state school. I -- and many of my classmates -- have gone on to fulfilling and successful careers. Two of my classmates there are now wildly famous journalists. Why? They were talented and motivated. Perhaps, instead of pushing our kids to chase the ever-elusive Ivy Grail, we should encourage them to bloom where they're planted. Isn't that, in the end, the key to a successful life?
5
Great article! Back in the day (1979), I was wait listed at Brown, a school that I had wanted to attend since an early age. I ended up going to my state university, got a great education, enjoyed it tremendously, and went on to medical school. Fast forward, and I now work at a "elite" medical school. There are many ways to get where you want to go. I have three children - one at a school that is a great fit for him in Boston, one heading into this process, and one just starting high school. Finding your passion and strength is probably more important than finding your "elite" school!
1
I think Mr. Bruni's point is that there are many paths to success and failure in America, and that they depend more upon the student than the school.
Phil Z
Phil Z
3
What a timely article, out skiing with three friends. All went to Ivy league schools. All are still in some way still supported by mommy and daddy. We are approaching 50 years of age. My three brothers and I either dropped out of school or did not go. Gotta go, have to call my brother's pilot to let him know I will be leaving a day later as the skiing is great here at Vail and I want to stay another day.
3
Frank, while I value your commentary, I have to say the following:
Every year I wait by the computer for the next affirmative article asking why on earth do we feel the need to try for elite college admission?
Like Charlie Brown we hover, suspicious. But then Lucy smiles and says, "This time I won't pull the ball away. Honest."
A wise man told me years ago, "If you can take no for an answer, you can ask any question in the world."
In my teens, I submitted poetry to literary magazines and journals from coast to coast. This was back when submitting a poem to two sources simultaneously meant having to type that poem twice. Nobody wanted a carbon. Most of the rejections were impersonal, but I received a lovely note from Robert Bly asking a question I should have asked myself. A few of my poems were published, but the note from Bly was the most valuable. It told me that ambiguity was more likely to be a failure of communication than a higher state of consciousness.
I anticipate that next year we'll get to read stories about people who have found wild success even though they went to the University of Phoenix. Can't wait.
Every year I wait by the computer for the next affirmative article asking why on earth do we feel the need to try for elite college admission?
Like Charlie Brown we hover, suspicious. But then Lucy smiles and says, "This time I won't pull the ball away. Honest."
A wise man told me years ago, "If you can take no for an answer, you can ask any question in the world."
In my teens, I submitted poetry to literary magazines and journals from coast to coast. This was back when submitting a poem to two sources simultaneously meant having to type that poem twice. Nobody wanted a carbon. Most of the rejections were impersonal, but I received a lovely note from Robert Bly asking a question I should have asked myself. A few of my poems were published, but the note from Bly was the most valuable. It told me that ambiguity was more likely to be a failure of communication than a higher state of consciousness.
I anticipate that next year we'll get to read stories about people who have found wild success even though they went to the University of Phoenix. Can't wait.
1
We're going through this with our daughter right now and using Colleges That Changes Lives to help guide us. It's a book by the former Education Editor of the NYT, Loren Pope. His book (and web site and organization) doesn't have a lot of nice things to say about the Ivies, but has wonderful things to say about many small, liberal arts schools that offer a ton of personal attention. I went to undergrad at a big university and grad school at a few smaller liberal arts schools and his book mirrors my experience. I couldn't tell you a single teacher from the big university, but had dinner and stayed in touch with a bunch of them from grad school. And got an inspiring education to boot. I encourage anyone with near-college-age kids to check out ctcl.org. It's a nice dose of sanity.
4
Exeter, Menlo-Atherton, New Trier......obviously Mr. Bruni is writing this article for the elite who are quite worried their child will not gain in a foothold into their world of money, power, and prestige. He is here to calm their fears. "Worry not denizens of the walled off power suburbs, little Johnny can still get a job at BCG and admission to Harvard Business School if he is scrappy enough at State U." Yes, there will be awkward conversations at cocktail parties about exactly where Bloomington is located, but in the end you will triumph.
How about viewing university not as a stepping stone, but as a place where ones child can work very hard for four years deeply immersed in study of a field they are passionate about? And beware anxious parents, this may mean they avoid joining the herd at most elite colleges by ditching the fraud that is the economics major for something meaty like physics or philosophy.
How about viewing university not as a stepping stone, but as a place where ones child can work very hard for four years deeply immersed in study of a field they are passionate about? And beware anxious parents, this may mean they avoid joining the herd at most elite colleges by ditching the fraud that is the economics major for something meaty like physics or philosophy.
20
Hmn....I am surprised to read that Indiana University is considered a lower tier school. I received a fantastic education there. I was exposed to a wide variety of arts and culture, international students, and professors and courses. The music and law schools are top notch. Otherwise, very good article.
1
The question isn't whether Ivy and other elite grads are more successful statistically. The are. The point to communicate to students is that the vast majority of highly paid, exciting careers, across the US, go to non-elite students. This is a developed country of 330 million people with top large, mid-size and small employers- start-ups- that provide fantastic opportunities. They do not primarily source from elite northeast universities because the pool of these "elite" is microscopic. Does anyone here doubt that a top TX energy executive will be happy to hire and promote a grad from Baylor? I worked with a Harvard grad at Saatchi & Saatchi Advertising. The boss didn't like her and she left.
There are wonderful, fulfilling, lucrative careers to be had in employers based in NY, Philly, Boston, Miami, Charlotte, Atlanta, New Orleans, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, Seattle, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Phoenix, Tucson, Tacoma, San Diego, LA, San Francisco and countless other cities. A TINY subset of the top execs in these jobs will be Ivy League or Stanford grads.
Tell your child: There is adventure, achievement, fulfillment, opportunity and money to be had out there. GO FOR IT!!
There are wonderful, fulfilling, lucrative careers to be had in employers based in NY, Philly, Boston, Miami, Charlotte, Atlanta, New Orleans, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, Seattle, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Phoenix, Tucson, Tacoma, San Diego, LA, San Francisco and countless other cities. A TINY subset of the top execs in these jobs will be Ivy League or Stanford grads.
Tell your child: There is adventure, achievement, fulfillment, opportunity and money to be had out there. GO FOR IT!!
4
I graduated from my top-choice elite college, and most of my classmates were miserable or on Prozac. I have always said that I hope my own kids go to a school where they will be happy and can focus on exploring their interests, wherever that may be. And yet, when I think about them going to my alma mater, or better yet, an Ivy (!)... I have to be honest, I want that for them (and they are only 2 and 4). Intellectually, I know that they would be better off in an honors program at a state school (which is what my husband did, and we ended up in the same prestigious job). But there will always be that competitive little voice in my head saying "oh, but I'd be so proud if they went to an elite school!" I just want the best for my kids, and I think we all do. Sometimes we have to be reminded that the "best" may not be at the top of the USNWR list.
4
An outstanding article Frank! It appears to me that Matt's parents are well grounded and I am sure their example will serve Matt well. The fact that Matt was not accepted by the Ivies is their loss, not Matt's.
1
I am sorry to report that this madness has taken root at the elementary school level in Santa Monica Malibu Unified School District (SMMUSD). They have removed from the curriculum anything requiring original thought or imagination. Excellence is defined by the extent to which a child can conform and keep quiet. Why ask questions? There are no questions. You know what is expected and you know what happens if you disappoint the elders. It's like a cult. The stress load is fantastic and acknowledged by school administrators almost as a point of pride: "Well, you know, not everyone can handle the academic pace we set..." We're talking about fifth and sixth graders, 10- and 11-year-olds, who come home distraught because they got a C on a math test and have been told to shape up or they will never get into a good college. Who are these people? Whose Vision for Success is this? When did American education become like an iPhone assembly line in Beijing?
5
Good grieve. That is insane. I tell my kids that grades before high school simply don't matter, so they should just enjoy their play time while they still can.
Think this article is missing the point. Moved to the US 6 years ago and was thrown into the madness that is the college process. Was told by a bewildered college guidance councillor that our daughter didn't 'have anything' on her resume worth mentioning in an application. We were a bit mystified but quickly got the message, there were no 'community volunteer' hours, no extra curriculars, no scouts, no sports, no anything that would show what a 'rounded' person she was. It's insane! American children are going through life 'ticking' off boxes of activities that are needed for applications, not for making them who they are. And you go through the same madness for your CV's for jobs. I have never lived in a society where the importance is so much on what 'looks good' as opposed to what is good is so prevailing. Just go out and meet people, the second comment after saying the name would be where they went to college. If that was an Ivy.... If it was a lesser college that would come as maybe after where their children are going to school. So the general idea that not going to an Ivy doesn't matter is a bit wide off the mark. It's hugely important in this very shallow society. Not until you stop talking about how important it is to develop a 'rounded' person and start doing it will it stop to matter where someone went to school. And how that person behaves towards his peers and the society will become the important bit! Until then these type articles are pointless.
7
Excellent piece. Looking forward to the book. Hopefully it might change the focus to a child's individual growth rather than a child as dividend.
For those who think all that torture and anxiety in the quest for a 'name' sheepskin are somehow worth it, if you get in, what's facing you? Unrelenting competition with other extreme achievers, especially since you'll probably still encounter some profs who grade on a strict curve - so, in those classes, you have to be a superstar to avoid a grade that's pretty much a smear. Think of it as four years of walking a tightrope, and likely emerging with enough debt to choke a blue whale.
In a country this big there are plenty of alternatives to this dreary gamble. This includes plenty of schools where you can even sit down and talk informally with your professors without needing connections or a reservation far in advance. You can meet a lot of people and learn a lot at such places. Granted, they're probably not a guaranteed entree to those 24/7/365 (plus 1 for leap year) Wall Street or Silicon Valley jobs. Then again, you'll probably escape having to win a bidding war for the 'privilege' of plunking down a million-plus for a small house or an even smaller flat. (MUCH smaller)
Remember, even if you plunge into the rat race with gusto and manage to 'win', what does that make you?
In a country this big there are plenty of alternatives to this dreary gamble. This includes plenty of schools where you can even sit down and talk informally with your professors without needing connections or a reservation far in advance. You can meet a lot of people and learn a lot at such places. Granted, they're probably not a guaranteed entree to those 24/7/365 (plus 1 for leap year) Wall Street or Silicon Valley jobs. Then again, you'll probably escape having to win a bidding war for the 'privilege' of plunking down a million-plus for a small house or an even smaller flat. (MUCH smaller)
Remember, even if you plunge into the rat race with gusto and manage to 'win', what does that make you?
4
Excellent article . In 1997, Jay Matthews wrote an article for the Washington Monthly Magazine entitled "Harvard Schmarvard." It was a fascinating piece. Now almost two decades later, it still has much relevance. In fact, most high school seniors were probably born at the time this article was written. The link is below.
http://www.unz.org/Pub/WashingtonMonthly-1997dec-00042
http://www.unz.org/Pub/WashingtonMonthly-1997dec-00042
Forbes ranks Indiana's business school 19th, Illinois's 45th.
Bloomberg has Indiana's undergraduate business program 8th, Emory's 9th, Michigan's 12th.
Aside from that, "literally drowned his sorrows for 45 minutes"? I don't think so.
No doubt these kids put themselves under a lot of pressure. But maybe they should chill a little and watch "Risky Business."
Bloomberg has Indiana's undergraduate business program 8th, Emory's 9th, Michigan's 12th.
Aside from that, "literally drowned his sorrows for 45 minutes"? I don't think so.
No doubt these kids put themselves under a lot of pressure. But maybe they should chill a little and watch "Risky Business."
5
I've been obsessed with this topic, for years as I shepherded my two high school-aged kids towards college, first at an elite Seattle private school, and then, due to a major loss and financial circumstances, at a much grittier public high school. Frank, this is the most compassionate and rational piece I've read on the issue, you have managed in one column to finally put this to rest for me. Thank you so much!
College is a time to make lifelong friends and contacts. By that logic, the larger state schools would make the most sense, compared with the smaller Ivy League schools.
The state schools have much larger and diverse pool of people to select friends from, and with all the money you save compared to the Ivies, you can spend the rest of your life always being able to visit the friends you made in college.
The state schools have much larger and diverse pool of people to select friends from, and with all the money you save compared to the Ivies, you can spend the rest of your life always being able to visit the friends you made in college.
1
This article provides some valuable perspective on a process that was always stressful and has become utterly insane.
But two points: cherry-picking a couple of examples of students at non-"elite" colleges (and where did that odious term come from as commonly accepted jargon?) and a few anecdotal comments doesn't invalidate the advantages offered at many famous academic places: small classes, great profs, lots of attention, a strong peer network for coming u with career ideas and for jobs later on, etc. Some students/people will just succeed anywhere and find what they need there--these people are extraordinary, though. This does suggest there are multiple paths to "success" though, which is good to student and parents to internalize.
But speaking of "success," why define it as getting a plum job at some business consulting company? Isn't this just perpetuating a notion that's just as bad as the idea that only "top" colleges offer the path to "success"? Haven't we seen the results of this thinking all around us, in terms of what careers our society values and which ones have become devalued in the last 30 years?
Surely there are just as many types of "success" in life as paths to this success? Maybe if education helped define what constitutes a "successful" life in terms other than mega-bucks careers in finance a lot of things would be better? Isn't that something a college education is supposed to do? Both for the individual and society?
But two points: cherry-picking a couple of examples of students at non-"elite" colleges (and where did that odious term come from as commonly accepted jargon?) and a few anecdotal comments doesn't invalidate the advantages offered at many famous academic places: small classes, great profs, lots of attention, a strong peer network for coming u with career ideas and for jobs later on, etc. Some students/people will just succeed anywhere and find what they need there--these people are extraordinary, though. This does suggest there are multiple paths to "success" though, which is good to student and parents to internalize.
But speaking of "success," why define it as getting a plum job at some business consulting company? Isn't this just perpetuating a notion that's just as bad as the idea that only "top" colleges offer the path to "success"? Haven't we seen the results of this thinking all around us, in terms of what careers our society values and which ones have become devalued in the last 30 years?
Surely there are just as many types of "success" in life as paths to this success? Maybe if education helped define what constitutes a "successful" life in terms other than mega-bucks careers in finance a lot of things would be better? Isn't that something a college education is supposed to do? Both for the individual and society?
5
If you can afford to spend money (investing in yourself), then you might enjoy one of the many programs that let you travel to some other part of the world and immerse yourself in a culture you've never experienced. If you need to earn money, or at least break even, look into taking a job and supporting yourself for a year. Alternatively, look into doing volunteer work in another part of the country or the world. Some volunteer jobs come with stipends. Whatever you do, don't stay home, and don't spend too long feeling sorry for yourself. If you're clearly a motivated, talented and young, then you'll find another place in which to succeed, and you WILL succeed.
4
Newsflash, not everybody is trying to get into an elite college. Wish there were some articles for the rest of us.
7
As a teacher of high school students for twenty-seven years, I write multiple college recommendations every year, and each year I write my heart out for my students. But this is not because of where they are applying, it is because of who they are. I tell my students "Be your best self and success will follow." I haven't been proven wrong yet.
Thank you for this article. It should be required reading for prospective student and parents. I will admit, I wept openly at the end. Love like that is the scaffolding upon which success is built.
Thank you for this article. It should be required reading for prospective student and parents. I will admit, I wept openly at the end. Love like that is the scaffolding upon which success is built.
1
For the first two of three generations of my family, despite academic achievement, the college-admissions dance did not happen--in fact, it was made clear that it was entirely out of the question. My mom graduated from high school at 15, but since it was the Depression, with a commercial diploma so she could go to work to put her brother through law school. I graduated at 16, with an academic diploma; but as we were too poor and I too young to go away to college, I was expected to--and did--get into Brooklyn College, free back then. Any school other than a unit of CUNY was off the table.
Our son, who graduated from a private day school with his age group, surprised us when he told us he was not interested in college tours or slick catalogs. As an actor and writer, he set his sights on Columbia College Chicago (the nation’s largest private fine arts university)--and not only did he apply himself without telling us, he was admitted on the strength of his grades and activities, and was actively recruited by the head of the drama department (also one of his Second City mentors)--before SAT results came back. He chose to commute (and was considerate enough to pick a college that was less expensive than his high school).
I saw what his high school classmates went through, and I breathe a sigh of relief over what a good “fit” he and his college achieved, and over his not having to endure raised expectations and dashed hopes--there’s plenty of that ahead in showbiz.
Our son, who graduated from a private day school with his age group, surprised us when he told us he was not interested in college tours or slick catalogs. As an actor and writer, he set his sights on Columbia College Chicago (the nation’s largest private fine arts university)--and not only did he apply himself without telling us, he was admitted on the strength of his grades and activities, and was actively recruited by the head of the drama department (also one of his Second City mentors)--before SAT results came back. He chose to commute (and was considerate enough to pick a college that was less expensive than his high school).
I saw what his high school classmates went through, and I breathe a sigh of relief over what a good “fit” he and his college achieved, and over his not having to endure raised expectations and dashed hopes--there’s plenty of that ahead in showbiz.
As someone who was denied from my top choice of Emory and denied from UC Davis an hour ago, this was incredibly helpful.
4
Thanks for reinforcing a good message that college counselors have been delivering to their students for years. See also:
http://tinyurl.com/q48cm77
http://tinyurl.com/q48cm77
I have four god daughters--parents went to University of Utah as I did. The girls? Undergrad and grad degrees at Harvard, William and Mary, MIT, University of Chicago, UC Riverside, Berkeley--a total of 4 undergrads, 5 Master's and 2 PhDs.
Not one has a job. Yet their parents and I have had great jobs--their dad is a Brig General in mil intel, mom is administrator at one of the largest healthcare providers in the nation...and I started up and ran rural clinics in areas that never had healthcare before...and continue to work for MSF.
These girls were told they were SPECIAL their whole lives. While the three of us worked as waiters, bartenders, motel maids, in banks, the parents didn't want their kids to EVER have to work while attending college.
Now we adults talk a lot about "Was this a mistake?" They've never had to work that hard for anything...the BEST schools were handed to them. Two have returned home...and are living off dad. We three adults still work. The girls seem "lost."
Are we living vicariously through them? We only had one choice of a major university living in Utah...(No way we were going to BYU!) None of us could afford out of state tuition. I wanted so MUCH to go to Wash U at St. Louis for their MD-PhD program..now I watch my nephews go there.
I look back and think that working AND going to school made me so appreciate that college education. I don't think that any of us were mature enough to really understand what college was all about.
Not one has a job. Yet their parents and I have had great jobs--their dad is a Brig General in mil intel, mom is administrator at one of the largest healthcare providers in the nation...and I started up and ran rural clinics in areas that never had healthcare before...and continue to work for MSF.
These girls were told they were SPECIAL their whole lives. While the three of us worked as waiters, bartenders, motel maids, in banks, the parents didn't want their kids to EVER have to work while attending college.
Now we adults talk a lot about "Was this a mistake?" They've never had to work that hard for anything...the BEST schools were handed to them. Two have returned home...and are living off dad. We three adults still work. The girls seem "lost."
Are we living vicariously through them? We only had one choice of a major university living in Utah...(No way we were going to BYU!) None of us could afford out of state tuition. I wanted so MUCH to go to Wash U at St. Louis for their MD-PhD program..now I watch my nephews go there.
I look back and think that working AND going to school made me so appreciate that college education. I don't think that any of us were mature enough to really understand what college was all about.
9
Another realistic masterpiece from Frank .... backed up by facts. Goes to show that as long our kids put in the effort and do their work, they will do fine and we as parents stand by them no matter what.
In our own experiences, we can almost conclude that in the end, there are many paths to success that are not solely determined by which college you attend but what how you make the most of what you get from an education together with hard work perseverence and patience.
In our own experiences, we can almost conclude that in the end, there are many paths to success that are not solely determined by which college you attend but what how you make the most of what you get from an education together with hard work perseverence and patience.
I've watched my own thrive at what was not initially his first choice college. Top 5% of his class, fully engaged in his studies, great friends, thankful every day he did not get into the school where he applied binding early decision. Kids and parents, it really will all be okay.
I don't understand Mr Bruni's hangup. He acknowledges that this issue affects only a very small fraction of students going to college. We've all known plenty of people who have succeeded without going to Harvard, etc. And given how many people are rejected by these schools, there must be huge numbers of people who overcome their "crushing" rejections and do well somewhere else. So what's the news here and what's the concern? Yes some people really want to get in to these selective schools badly, just like people want a certain new car, or to live in a large home in a certain neighborhood, etc. And probably a larger fraction of those students will do well (however that is defined) compared to most less selective schools, either because they were selected for, because of better networking opportunities, or even a better education. If students desire it and can afford it, why hold it against them?
1
Ah, the challenge of rejection. One summer decades ago I was informed at camp, that the U. of Chicago accepted kids after 2 yrs. of high school. My informant, an older teenager then at NY City College said, of course you'll never make it!" I was there next year as a scholarship student (the only way I could have afforded it even though tuition in 1950 was $540 pa--a car cost $2000). It was a different time and place. Robert M. Hutchins' U. of C. was as he said it: "The object of the educational system, taken as a whole, is not to produce hands for industry or to teach the young how to make a living. It is to produce responsible citizens". I learned critical thinking skills through Socratic debate about the Great Thinkers of the Western Canon. I'm grateful I went there. Later I attended at Cornell, an entirely different environment, careerist and anti-intellectual. One of the least charming of my class mates--even then-- a man named Sanford Weill, went on to destroy Glass-Steagall and helped create the possibilities that nearly brought down the world financial system. I'd been rejected by Harvard as an undergraduate transfer but went on to teach there at the graduate level. Can't emphasize enough how much more important to living was the education I grappled with at U. of C.
3
I agree with Frank's essay. We have become completely irrational about college admissions. That said, my daughter is about 6 years away from beginning this process, so who knows how I will do throughout the ordeal.
I wish some brilliant statistician could compile some objective data about college availability. I have a hunch that by applying to so many schools, we have created a false sense of scarcity. By way of a very coarse example, imagine that there are 1,000 students applying for college, and there are 10 schools with 99 spaces available. If all 1,000 students apply at every one of those schools, each school is going to have to reject 901 students. Yet, there is room for all but an unfortunate 10 students at the schools...somewhere. Each school has to reject a good chunk of the students so they are not over-enrolled, yet there is room at the colleges for almost all the students.
I don't know how comparable my example is to real life, but I would love to see data on how many actual spots are available at colleges vs. how many students are applying for that pool of spots. My hunch is that by applying to so many schools we have created a false sense of scarcity and that there are actually spots at colleges for most kids who wish to attend. If you know where I can find this data, please share! I feel like approaching the application process with this sort of rational data would go a long way to soothing my nerves.
I wish some brilliant statistician could compile some objective data about college availability. I have a hunch that by applying to so many schools, we have created a false sense of scarcity. By way of a very coarse example, imagine that there are 1,000 students applying for college, and there are 10 schools with 99 spaces available. If all 1,000 students apply at every one of those schools, each school is going to have to reject 901 students. Yet, there is room for all but an unfortunate 10 students at the schools...somewhere. Each school has to reject a good chunk of the students so they are not over-enrolled, yet there is room at the colleges for almost all the students.
I don't know how comparable my example is to real life, but I would love to see data on how many actual spots are available at colleges vs. how many students are applying for that pool of spots. My hunch is that by applying to so many schools we have created a false sense of scarcity and that there are actually spots at colleges for most kids who wish to attend. If you know where I can find this data, please share! I feel like approaching the application process with this sort of rational data would go a long way to soothing my nerves.
I think your hunch is dead on. This is the fallacy that I keep trying to communicate to my anxious friends.
Forgot to mention that among the great achievements of Robert Hutchins as Chancellor of U of C was elimination of intercollegiate football. And fraternities. The personal result was that although Hutchins famously said, "when I think of exercise. I lie down til the thought passes." I, who was a mediocre athlete in high school, got great coaching in soccer, wrestling and gymnastics, all intramural sports. Hutchins despite his knowledge of classics apparently forgot mens sano in corpore sans. Oh well, later as head of the Ford Foundation, he founded National Education Television which later became PBS. The U of C changed after he left and now like most American universities it has become what he argued against--a glorified trade school.
What a ridiculous article. It says way too much about the readership of this paper that this would be among the most emailed articles. Only the hypersensitive over-achieving parents of a truly affluent breed could possibly be so deranged as to feel consoled by such nonsense. Let’s be clear – getting into an elite college matters. Whether you are coming from a well connected, affluent community or not, you will be more likely to succeed if you go to a top ranked school. If you are lucky enough to come from an affluent family, your school might matter less, but as previously noted, that is not the community that has the most to gain from top universities. What better path to success than to strive for the highest levels of education? Stop being so grumpy that you or your kid didn’t get into the best school. Yes – the system is not perfect. What social system is? If you are rejected from 8 out of 9 schools, you probably missed the boat somewhere. Or maybe you just aren’t smart enough. Look – education is one of the last paths to the American Dream. I know, I was lucky enough to walk that path- from public high school and a lower middle class family to an Ivy League College to (gasp!) working at a bank. You probably think that makes me evil because you read the NYT, but I think it makes me strong and independent and happy. Good luck with your kids- I hope they have a fraction of the success and happiness I was able to piece together, thanks to my snooty Ivy League education.
5
I've read a lot of articles in The Times about college admissions, and one theme that always comes through is the frustration so many parents feel about elite college admissions, their perceptions being that their type of children are disadvantaged compared to athletes, legacies, minorities, etc.. I wonder if this well ever translate into a belief that elite school alumni aren't that talented because their admission was likely gained through some special category.
1
Matt Levin, if you happen to be reading this, I hope you have the same experience I did (almost 30 years ago) when I didn't get into my first or second choice schools and, instead, went to Lehigh. The cosmos knew what my future held better than I did. It was a gift to be in south-side Bethlehem rather than stuck at Johns Hopkins when I abandoned pre-med for computer science my sophomore year.
Welcome to the Mountain Hawk family. May you have as much fun as I did, 60 miles from any recognizable source of culture.
Welcome to the Mountain Hawk family. May you have as much fun as I did, 60 miles from any recognizable source of culture.
The rarified world described by F. Scott Fitzgerald and satirized in a way by Sinclair Lewis and Fitzgerald came to mind as I read Frank Bruni near hagiographical descriptions and thinly disguised gushing over the ivory tower bastions of America's elite dandy boys and girls and their Alma Maters.
One can almost hear the Bush family, the Kennedy boys and the DuPont lads rowing and singing fraternity songs in their J. Press shirts and Penny Loafers!
If the piece is a sort of disguised "Noir" satire then I say, "Bravo" Mr. Bruni!
One can almost hear the Bush family, the Kennedy boys and the DuPont lads rowing and singing fraternity songs in their J. Press shirts and Penny Loafers!
If the piece is a sort of disguised "Noir" satire then I say, "Bravo" Mr. Bruni!
1
Whether you go to an elite private college, a regional state university or a technical college, you still have to live the rest of your life. That's what matters. Life doesn't end with a stack of admitted/rejected letters. Live a good and honorable one.
3
"And he finagled a way, off campus, to interview with several of the top-drawer consulting firms that trawled for recruits at the Ivies but often bypassed schools like Indiana. "
How was this done? For many this can only happen by going to an elite college where such recruiting occurs. However, if one has connections to get such interviews without attendance at an elite school, college choice is much less important. This story does not paint an accurate picture for most college students since most will not be able to "finagle" such interviews.
How was this done? For many this can only happen by going to an elite college where such recruiting occurs. However, if one has connections to get such interviews without attendance at an elite school, college choice is much less important. This story does not paint an accurate picture for most college students since most will not be able to "finagle" such interviews.
15
While Peter desperately finagled his way to some occupational prestige, he was one of roughly 8,000 IU grads that year to make it to BCG. An outlier. His classmate from high school was merely one of several hundred Yale grads that year the "Big 3" consulting firms (Bain, Boston, McKinsey) welcomed aboard, from a graduating class 1/7 the size of IU.
Pandering to the inferiority complexes of those families excluded from super selective colleges is a surefire way to generate a lot of clicks; as you said, there are 10x as many shut out versus accepted. But the rest of us know the score.
Pandering to the inferiority complexes of those families excluded from super selective colleges is a surefire way to generate a lot of clicks; as you said, there are 10x as many shut out versus accepted. But the rest of us know the score.
3
What a freaky world we live in, when bright young people (from elite high schools) feel "crushed" to have to "settle for" options most young people in this country would die for. Scripps is a great school. So are most of the UC's.
When did the US turn into this horrible "winner take all" society? And does anyone really believe that the hyper-competitive rat race leading to the Ivy Leagues is going to produce the creativity and transformations we desperately need?
When did the US turn into this horrible "winner take all" society? And does anyone really believe that the hyper-competitive rat race leading to the Ivy Leagues is going to produce the creativity and transformations we desperately need?
15
Well put. We are turning into a country of "excellent sheep".
1
Unfortunately "creativity and transformations" interest these folks not a whit. Keeping the status quo and maintaining wealth is the goal. Only money matters.
Reassuring words, as always, from wise Mr. Bruni. We are in the thick of things with our youngest of three boys, who has already received more acceptances than we had prepared for after 3 1/2 years of high school ups and downs. What we have learned in the 12-year span from oldest to youngest is that (1) no child is the same and that (2) there are multiple paths to maturity, success, and to what might be called destiny, or more accurately, happiness. Truly helping a child find a suitable college (and career) more times than not means putting aside a parent's competitive urges and looking at the arenas in which a child (young adult) is most at ease...be it the music wing, in the locker room or science lab. And love, as recognized by Bruni, is the not-so-secret ingredient we can sometimes overlook.
1
Frank, I appreciate your stories that life does not pass you by when you don't make it into the ivies. This from the perspective of one who attended an elite prep school and was accepted into Emory, squandered the opportunity as a result of an outsized immaturity, and wound up in a fourth-tier junior college and flirted with disaster with both education and life. I recovered, and am now a Professor of Medicine in a transplant service in one of our nation's top medical centers. Looking back across my unlikely path, I see the value of elite universities as not so much as one of education but of developing a network of friends and allies that can be valuable to your chosen career. I benefited from great mentors during my scientific and medical education that allowed me these advantages that I missed earlier, and that same road is open to most who have the initiative and the promise to seize the opportunities that come their way.
4
Needed that. Thank you. (Although the girl got into first choice...Mills - all girl private liberal arts school in the SF Bay Area...wasn't interested in East Coast or Ivy Leagues at all. Proud of her!) But all her friends await, and the dread is running high....which I agree is ridiculous. She said nobody talks about college because it's all so overwrought everyone wants to vomit. Why are we doing this to our young people?
Mr. Bruni,
Unfortunately your using the admission of the young man to Harvard Business
School, belies your column. You still count success as to what college you went to, even if it was not the undergraduate version but the graduate version.
You also count success, in his case, by what prestigious firm he went to work for.
Save some teenager who has made millions by the time he is 17, there is
no method to predict success in business. You have to have that instinct
for investing/production/meeting and influencing strangers and hiring the
right people to work for you. That cannot be taught. You can explain how this
company succeeded and that company crashed due to the choices the founders
of the company made, but you can not induce the instinct to make the right
choices at the right time...
If the elite Universities just chose by lottery from those who qualified - I doubt,
except for 5 % of the class, it would make any difference in the quality of the
students. Yes, there are true geniuses out there, but they are far and few
between and one wonders if the admissions process is perfect at picking them
out of the tens of thousands who apply.
For those who are turned down, remember that they use the same books
at the "elites" as they do at any good college. Go to a smaller school,
get to know your professors, take as many independent study courses as
you can and learn the insides and outsides of your field of endeavor and
then take a few chances and see what happens.
Unfortunately your using the admission of the young man to Harvard Business
School, belies your column. You still count success as to what college you went to, even if it was not the undergraduate version but the graduate version.
You also count success, in his case, by what prestigious firm he went to work for.
Save some teenager who has made millions by the time he is 17, there is
no method to predict success in business. You have to have that instinct
for investing/production/meeting and influencing strangers and hiring the
right people to work for you. That cannot be taught. You can explain how this
company succeeded and that company crashed due to the choices the founders
of the company made, but you can not induce the instinct to make the right
choices at the right time...
If the elite Universities just chose by lottery from those who qualified - I doubt,
except for 5 % of the class, it would make any difference in the quality of the
students. Yes, there are true geniuses out there, but they are far and few
between and one wonders if the admissions process is perfect at picking them
out of the tens of thousands who apply.
For those who are turned down, remember that they use the same books
at the "elites" as they do at any good college. Go to a smaller school,
get to know your professors, take as many independent study courses as
you can and learn the insides and outsides of your field of endeavor and
then take a few chances and see what happens.
Frank was a good food critic but isnt exactly a deep thinker whose musings are appropriate for the op ed age. While all would agree with his basic hypothesis, he dabbles in stereotype (new trier is hardly posh and indiana univ happens to be a great school) and circular reasoning (the student who didnt get into an ivy is a success beause he got the same job as a yalie, and now is at harvard...).
As one who has spent 20years at harvard and yale, my strongest impression is how ordinary the students seem. But heres the rub, these kids will feel special their whole lives, no matter if they succeed or fail, because of a decision made when they were 18. Sure, other kids will succeed but these harvard/yale grads will always know they are special. Ultimately this about self esteem -- kids rejected by ivys must earn it, while it is handed to those admitted, even if they fail in every objective measure as adults...
As one who has spent 20years at harvard and yale, my strongest impression is how ordinary the students seem. But heres the rub, these kids will feel special their whole lives, no matter if they succeed or fail, because of a decision made when they were 18. Sure, other kids will succeed but these harvard/yale grads will always know they are special. Ultimately this about self esteem -- kids rejected by ivys must earn it, while it is handed to those admitted, even if they fail in every objective measure as adults...
4
And, Frank, why will people spend $10,000 on a Rolex rather than $100 on a Timex even though both will tell you the same time?
It's called human nature. And when combined with a culture which panders to its worst instincts (i.e., our veritable lust for money, power, pleasure), of course kids (just like adults) are going to define their worth and value by what imparts the highest status and offers the most power.
Hence, in fact, your need to prove that kids don't need the Ivy League to achieve ... well, the money and power attendant to being a CEO or a path-breaking entrepreneur or ... well, holding some other career with offers what one who's a pundit for the NY Times is likely to value.
It's called human nature. And when combined with a culture which panders to its worst instincts (i.e., our veritable lust for money, power, pleasure), of course kids (just like adults) are going to define their worth and value by what imparts the highest status and offers the most power.
Hence, in fact, your need to prove that kids don't need the Ivy League to achieve ... well, the money and power attendant to being a CEO or a path-breaking entrepreneur or ... well, holding some other career with offers what one who's a pundit for the NY Times is likely to value.
In many ways technology is already neutralizing this college rat race. The overwhelming majority of highly paid IT professionals working in our IT industry today came from state universities. Anyone who wants to get into Computer Science or Engineering would be wise to opt out of this rat race, forget that pointless IB diploma and the mandatory 150 hours of volunteer work on something you could care less about once you get into college...what a waste of energy and time!! Instead, focus your time and energy on excelling in math and science in high school, only play sports if you actually enjoy playing otherwise don't bother, only volunteer if you actually want to volunteer otherwise don't bother, then go on to your local state university to study what you really want to study. A degree in STEM from your local state U is the real golden ticket to a well paid job in IT these days.
I look forward to the day when MOOCs become diploma granting colleges in all disciplines, and employers determine the quality of the candidates based on the grades on these diplomas. It is truly ridiculous that our society continues to regard HYPS as the hallmark of excellence in education that produce the country's best and brightest, when at least 60% are admitted solely because they can play ball, or are of the right race, or are born to the right parents.
The real smart people in America today are the STEM grads who find the cheapest possible way to get their degree, the rest are just sheep.
I look forward to the day when MOOCs become diploma granting colleges in all disciplines, and employers determine the quality of the candidates based on the grades on these diplomas. It is truly ridiculous that our society continues to regard HYPS as the hallmark of excellence in education that produce the country's best and brightest, when at least 60% are admitted solely because they can play ball, or are of the right race, or are born to the right parents.
The real smart people in America today are the STEM grads who find the cheapest possible way to get their degree, the rest are just sheep.
2
These days, your undergraduate alma mater matters far less than where you did your graduate or professional degree. The best advice I can give a young person is to obtain an undergraduate degree wherever you can get a good education cheaply. This often means in-state tuition at a local college, but it offers several huge strategic advantages: 1) it will be easier to stand out, and thus receive scholarships, faculty attention, and awards to put on your CV when you apply to a graduate or professional program -- which is really more important anyway; 2) you can avoid going into debt.
When you're done, apply to a prestigious graduate or professional program. This time, you can shoot for the stars -- but remember that many of the top graduate programs in the United States are not at Ivy League schools. You'll find top programs at places like Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, and here at Michigan -- among others. Either way, look for well funded programs, and if you managed to avoid undergraduate debt, you'll finish a professional degree without having spent much of your own (or your parents') money. Now that's impressive.
When you're done, apply to a prestigious graduate or professional program. This time, you can shoot for the stars -- but remember that many of the top graduate programs in the United States are not at Ivy League schools. You'll find top programs at places like Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, and here at Michigan -- among others. Either way, look for well funded programs, and if you managed to avoid undergraduate debt, you'll finish a professional degree without having spent much of your own (or your parents') money. Now that's impressive.
6
Those who are in the rat race for the top 10 should take a good look at where these people went to college (undergrad):
Warren Buffett - Univ. of NE
Sergei Brin - Univ. of MD
Larry Page - Univ. of MI
Paul Allen - Washington State
Oprah Winfrey - Tennessee State
Steven Spielberg - Cal State Long Beach
Paul Ryan - Miami Univ.
John Boehner - Xavier Univ.
Mitt Romney - BYU
Bill Clinton - Georgetown
Jan Koum (Whatsapp) - San Jose State
Steve Chen (YouTube) - Univ. of IL
Steve Wozniack (Apple) - Cal - Berkeley
Steve Jobs - Reed College (dropped out)
Larry Ellison - Univ. of IL (dropped out)
Michael Dell - UT Austin (dropped out)
Evan Williams(Twitter) - Univ. of NE (dropped out)
Jamie Dimon - Tufts
Jack Welsh - UMass Amherst
John Chambers (Cisco) - Univ. of WV
Andrew Grove (Intel) - CUNY
Phil Knight (Nike) - Univ. of OR
The list goes on.
Warren Buffett - Univ. of NE
Sergei Brin - Univ. of MD
Larry Page - Univ. of MI
Paul Allen - Washington State
Oprah Winfrey - Tennessee State
Steven Spielberg - Cal State Long Beach
Paul Ryan - Miami Univ.
John Boehner - Xavier Univ.
Mitt Romney - BYU
Bill Clinton - Georgetown
Jan Koum (Whatsapp) - San Jose State
Steve Chen (YouTube) - Univ. of IL
Steve Wozniack (Apple) - Cal - Berkeley
Steve Jobs - Reed College (dropped out)
Larry Ellison - Univ. of IL (dropped out)
Michael Dell - UT Austin (dropped out)
Evan Williams(Twitter) - Univ. of NE (dropped out)
Jamie Dimon - Tufts
Jack Welsh - UMass Amherst
John Chambers (Cisco) - Univ. of WV
Andrew Grove (Intel) - CUNY
Phil Knight (Nike) - Univ. of OR
The list goes on.
5
The next Supreme court justice should NOT be an Ivy grad, just for diversity 's sake.
1
I see it already in my friends who are sending their kids to private high schools.Gotta start sooner and sooner it seems. What kills me is that these are liberal folk who believe in equality yada yada but then send their kids to places only a few can afford.
4
In making comparisons with elite US universities, I would like to post a note about the success rate of the University of Waterloo in placing alumni in high-tech companies or seeing them found start-ups. With very few exceptions, students in Canada study at public universities, and most of these universities are medium to large and have a broader intake of students overall than the Ivies. It is thus difficult to compare the university systems of Canada and the USA directly. Nevertheless, some particular undergraduate programs within Canadian universities are very competitive; the computer science and related engineeering programs at Waterloo, to which the person in Silicon Valley referred in the Times article, have international reputations, even for undergraduate admissions. Given the prestige of these programs and the size and entrepreneurial culture of the university, one should expect their graduates to comprise one of the biggest contingents in high-tech fields. In other words, the large number of Waterloo alumni represented tends to prove the point about the success of high-ranking programs. At least to me, the most interesting aspects of Waterloo's success in comparison with other distinguished programs are the facts that the university is less than sixty years old and serves a plethora of immigrant and economically disadvantaged students, many attracted by its coop programs. (Disclaimer: a family member works for the University of Waterloo.)
4
Please follow up with column about transferring up to better school after freshman year.
2
From a high school junior trying to find normalcy in this absurdity, thank you for this article.
2
Bruni writes that being accepted into a an elite college is "seen as the conclusive measure of a young person’s worth" in how he views himself, and that the importance placed on getting into these schools causes "a perversion of higher education’s purpose and potential" which he goes to on to explain is "a singular opportunity to rummage through and luxuriate in ideas" etc.
However the fact is that despite all of the great things that are said to be the purpose of a college education, nobody would pay even a fraction of the money for the purpose of education and the learning experience if it did not result in a degree. If tuition was charged per courses taken just about every last student would pay for enough courses to graduate or not pay at all. They would pay for those courses they have no interest in and put in all the hard work required to pass the exams.
And this is because learning in a college and not getting a degree is seen as worthless despite all the great benefits that such an education provides. And this is because in reality its all about getting the degree and the opportunities that having that degree provides in life.
And this obviously is what getting into an elite college is all about. Students put in those 4 years and pay all that money for the degree and the status it confers on them. And a degree from an elite university provides the greatest opportunities a degree can provide.
However the fact is that despite all of the great things that are said to be the purpose of a college education, nobody would pay even a fraction of the money for the purpose of education and the learning experience if it did not result in a degree. If tuition was charged per courses taken just about every last student would pay for enough courses to graduate or not pay at all. They would pay for those courses they have no interest in and put in all the hard work required to pass the exams.
And this is because learning in a college and not getting a degree is seen as worthless despite all the great benefits that such an education provides. And this is because in reality its all about getting the degree and the opportunities that having that degree provides in life.
And this obviously is what getting into an elite college is all about. Students put in those 4 years and pay all that money for the degree and the status it confers on them. And a degree from an elite university provides the greatest opportunities a degree can provide.
2
Media obsession with admissions at elite colleges and universities — which serve less than 1% of all the students in higher education — is maddening. Just once, I'd love to see a story about how the son of the farmer father and admin mother from middle-class Iowa plans to overcome his lack of preparedness for college — rather than the 1,000th hand-wringing piece about the daughter of the hedge-fund-manager dad and literature-prof mom who's stressing over whether to accept admissions to Williams or Colby. This is not the world, New York Times. Get a clue.
3
Interesting that you interviewed the counselor at Menlo-Atherton High School of all places about the pressure put on kids to get into the elite schools. M-A is located up the road, one town north of Palo Alto, where for the past ten years there's been a disturbing cluster of suicides by commuter train by kids at the two high-pressure, highly-rated high schools, Paly (Palo Alto High School) and Gunn High School.
http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2015/03/10/caltrain-south-bay-communities-work-...
http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2015/03/10/caltrain-south-bay-communities-work-...
1
I try to comprehend how exactly endless bubble testing helps public school students who will never afford these schools, elite colleges could care less about them and the students that get accepted come mostly from private schools who've never had to suffer through them i.e. received an education
So true! I am a professor at an Ivy League university, but I attended a very good state university myself and also taught at a state school prior to getting this job. The student bodies at these different universities seem very comparable to me in terms of ability--in each case there are a small number of truly exceptional students, and a majority of solid, hard-working students who show no evidence of remarkable gifts but are getting a very good education and will do just fine. The difference is that the Ivy students do not, in my opinion, have the same drive and curiosity as their counterparts at these (admittedly very good) state schools. More importantly, they are more risk averse, less inclined to follow their own passions, and generously less welcoming of uncertainty. They will probably do just fine in life. But I am constantly grateful that I had a very different college experience, and I hope my children will too. I felt free to choose the major I wanted, to change it when my interests changed, and to pursue a career in academia even though everyone told me it was impossible to get a job. I also earned a PhD without racking up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, or bankrupting my parents.
5
My daughter has been accepted so far by 5 of the 7 schools she's applied to. The two elite schools she applied to (regular admission) haven't yet sent their decision. So far, though, she has been offered some very generous scholarships, along with placement in honors programs. It's been an eye opener that some of the more "average" schools have some very strong programs and can be the basis for an excellent undergraduate experience. In the end, a so-called "good fit" may be more important than a name brand school.
And, some of these schools excel in areas and programs that surpass the more competitive schools. They are indeed well-kept secrets.
Keep in mind that 30 percent of all undergrads transfer during their college years. It's not where you start, it's where you finish -- in a career you enjoy, a city you love, or some other situation you never even imagined.
And, some of these schools excel in areas and programs that surpass the more competitive schools. They are indeed well-kept secrets.
Keep in mind that 30 percent of all undergrads transfer during their college years. It's not where you start, it's where you finish -- in a career you enjoy, a city you love, or some other situation you never even imagined.
2
I love what Matt's parents wrote. I wish more parents felt the same. Both my kids started at community colleges. There was no stress; one just got a scholarship to North Carolina State to play baseball, and the other has a good first job after finishing at the University of Hawaii. There are other, much better ways, to measure success; doing fulfilling work and having a community that cares about you and vice versa. The stress parents load on their kids, the messages we send them about a fulfilling life, are damaging and sad ...
1
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/upshot/for-accomplished-students-reach...
This Upshot article provides the facts and stats behind admissions and does not rely on anecdotes.
"And the real odds of success were even higher than 51 percent. The top students in the Parchment database applied to 2.6 elite colleges, on average. Flip a coin twice and, according to probability theory, you’ll get heads at least once 75 percent of the time. Sure enough, 80 percent of top students were accepted to at least one elite school."
"Since there has never been a time when 100 percent of well-qualified students were successful in the college admissions market, the truism that elite colleges are far more difficult to crack than in years gone by can’t be correct: 80 percent is too close, mathematically, to nearly everyone."
This Upshot article provides the facts and stats behind admissions and does not rely on anecdotes.
"And the real odds of success were even higher than 51 percent. The top students in the Parchment database applied to 2.6 elite colleges, on average. Flip a coin twice and, according to probability theory, you’ll get heads at least once 75 percent of the time. Sure enough, 80 percent of top students were accepted to at least one elite school."
"Since there has never been a time when 100 percent of well-qualified students were successful in the college admissions market, the truism that elite colleges are far more difficult to crack than in years gone by can’t be correct: 80 percent is too close, mathematically, to nearly everyone."
1
While I greatly enjoyed your article, I would be remiss not to mention one aspect that left me affronted. As a third-year undergraduate student in Canada, your use of the University of Waterloo as an example was highly misapplied. You mention that the University is publicly funded, effectively applying a negative connotation, while you clearly fail to state that the vast majority of post-secondary institutions in Ontario are publicly funded. In Canada, there is no stigma attached to publicly funded institutions as in the United States. Additionally, the University of Waterloo’s Computer Science program is one of the most sought after in Canada - as well as globally. With incredibly rigorous admission standards, the concentration of bright and driven individuals has led to the launch of numerous successful enterprises.
An understanding of our Canadian post-secondary education system would be surprising for the average American, and there is no fault there. However, as a writer, there should be a clear understanding of any example used, especially in a global publication.
Thank you for your article, it is always good to read about how success is not defined by or dependent on the acceptance to a single institution at the age of seventeen.
An understanding of our Canadian post-secondary education system would be surprising for the average American, and there is no fault there. However, as a writer, there should be a clear understanding of any example used, especially in a global publication.
Thank you for your article, it is always good to read about how success is not defined by or dependent on the acceptance to a single institution at the age of seventeen.
1
I heartily agree with your conclusion, our generation places much too large a focus on attending one of the top tier institutions that will, supposedly, allow them past the gate and onto the golden road. The framework we’ve relied on to evaluate our decisions has a gaping flaw - we forget to consider ourselves as individuals. By grouping ourselves together as a set of ‘perfect’ college applications to gain admission into the top tier schools we fail to grasp that environment we place ourselves into will likely be the single most important factor in defining our adult lives.
We forget that as individuals, we cope differently in each environment. While many do succeed in the ultra competitive environment, there are many that do not. Having the opportunity to grow and develop as individuals is the most important aspect of post-secondary education, and many students fail to properly consider how they will react to the ultra-competitive environment when evaluating their options. Those interested in further exploring the impact of college environments on individuals should read Malcolm Gladwell’s David and Goliath.
We forget that as individuals, we cope differently in each environment. While many do succeed in the ultra competitive environment, there are many that do not. Having the opportunity to grow and develop as individuals is the most important aspect of post-secondary education, and many students fail to properly consider how they will react to the ultra-competitive environment when evaluating their options. Those interested in further exploring the impact of college environments on individuals should read Malcolm Gladwell’s David and Goliath.
My Grandfather left me with a wonderful if odd legacy. A first-generation German immigrant, self made man whose son, my Father made his way in America through innate genius and a 5 year Engineering program at Cornell, my inheritance was this: an educational trust fund with rough stipulations.
Attend an Ivy League School and study a profession.
Opa died when I was in 4th grade and I was made well aware of the contingencies on a regular basis, though I was never helped with nor encouraged to complete my homework or study. I scored sky high on my SATs and was admitted to each school I applied to, deciding on University of Pennsylvania.
Everyone's path to college admission is different, but having that external motivation which I internalized from an early age made me feel invincible. I knew I had to live up to my Grandfather's hopes for me and not disappoint him.
Attend an Ivy League School and study a profession.
Opa died when I was in 4th grade and I was made well aware of the contingencies on a regular basis, though I was never helped with nor encouraged to complete my homework or study. I scored sky high on my SATs and was admitted to each school I applied to, deciding on University of Pennsylvania.
Everyone's path to college admission is different, but having that external motivation which I internalized from an early age made me feel invincible. I knew I had to live up to my Grandfather's hopes for me and not disappoint him.
1
As a first-generation immigrant from a working class family, my perspective on the college admissions process was a bit different from Mr. Bruni's. Like many other students in the NYC public school system, my parents: 1) did not speak English, 2) had blue collar jobs, and 3) were well-intentioned but couldn't provide me with specific, detailed advice on how to succeed within the American educational system. I had no access to or experience with any sort of white collar professionals, and I felt that the only way to bridge the gap from my reality to my potential future was through attending a top school. So I drank the Kool Aid, went to a top undergrad, and am pursuing the legal track. Although this approach might not work for all students, I think that my undergrad experience was invaluable because it pulled back the curtain on how things like networking work. There are a thousand small but crucial steps that I never really understood before - for instance, receiving the most generous grants or scholarships require much more than stellar grades. Scholarships/grants require recommendations from professors, which in turn requires that you are savvy enough to build relationships with professors beforehand. Building these relationships requires practicing speaking and enunciating in the "correct" way, so as to not scare off professors with mannerisms that are comfortable at home.
6
One issue not noticed is that at many of the "elite" schools admissions could be based on how many other kids from the same high school are accepted. If the University needs a particular kind of student, like an athlete, or musician, other more academically qualified students will be rejected.
2
As a high school freshman, I find this article intriguing but mostly a reminder of the stress ahead. Before I started high school, I was actually much more worried about applying to college. Yet now that I've started high school, I'm much more calm and relaxed about everything. At my school, I work hard and do things that make me happy, even though my laundry list of honors classes, sports, and clubs is a bit chaotic.
My main goal is just to do things that interest me and that I feel passionate about. I really enjoy my classes, so I take harder ones. Exercise from crew and nordic skiing teaches me how to stay fit, and fills my body with endorphins. Math team is an excuse to hang out with fellow nerds, eat junk food, and do math.
I'm confident that if I take risks and follow my passions, I'll end up at the right college. I don't think it's worth it anymore to worry about college until later in high school (maybe junior year?). For now, I'm aware of it, but just focusing on excelling for myself rather than for admission officers.
My main goal is just to do things that interest me and that I feel passionate about. I really enjoy my classes, so I take harder ones. Exercise from crew and nordic skiing teaches me how to stay fit, and fills my body with endorphins. Math team is an excuse to hang out with fellow nerds, eat junk food, and do math.
I'm confident that if I take risks and follow my passions, I'll end up at the right college. I don't think it's worth it anymore to worry about college until later in high school (maybe junior year?). For now, I'm aware of it, but just focusing on excelling for myself rather than for admission officers.
3
In my experience at highly competitive colleges and universities., I noticed that those who do make it in ---but barely make it in--- are unhappy being at the bottom of his or her class. They often take to drinking or skipping most classes and rarely fit in. They would have felt better and probably done better at a less competitive school.
1
I say this as someone who obsessively checks my alma mater's ranking each year, but I think that Frank you are on to something that for the most students the obsession will certain colleges is not worth stress it creates. And that maybe going to a school where you clearly meet their admission requirements as opposed to one that's a stretch makes more sense for a lot of kids.
That said, I would be curious to see a study of how much the perceived advantages to elite schools -- the name brand on the resume, connections made among fellow students and, perhaps, the extra motivation that comes from being in a highly competitive environment -- matter in the aggregate as opposed to specific instances. I realize that this data would be hard to nail down since, potentially, a successful Princeton grad would have also been a successful Rutgers graduate, and parsing out the impact of the school may be impossible.
That said, I would be curious to see a study of how much the perceived advantages to elite schools -- the name brand on the resume, connections made among fellow students and, perhaps, the extra motivation that comes from being in a highly competitive environment -- matter in the aggregate as opposed to specific instances. I realize that this data would be hard to nail down since, potentially, a successful Princeton grad would have also been a successful Rutgers graduate, and parsing out the impact of the school may be impossible.
1
When you took Economics 101, you learned the concept of a normal good (one with diminishing marginal return, the example is beer on a hot day), an inferior good (less is always preferred to more, in all circumstances, like air pollution, which, after all, is a product) and a superior good (more is always preferred to less under all circumstances). Education is simply a superior good, and in all forms, more is preferred to less under all circumstances.
The difference isn't where you go to school, but whether you go to school and if you learned something or just tried to get a credential. I agree with the comment that the most important thing is whether the school is a good fit for the student. A friend's father was the psychiatrist at an Ivy League school student health service and he never lacked for patients. I also agree with the comment that an elite school only gives you an initial leg up and it is all up to you thereafter. I work for an organization which is not perfect, but fairly meritocratic, and I see Ivy Leaguers reporting to the state college graduates everyday.
The difference isn't where you go to school, but whether you go to school and if you learned something or just tried to get a credential. I agree with the comment that the most important thing is whether the school is a good fit for the student. A friend's father was the psychiatrist at an Ivy League school student health service and he never lacked for patients. I also agree with the comment that an elite school only gives you an initial leg up and it is all up to you thereafter. I work for an organization which is not perfect, but fairly meritocratic, and I see Ivy Leaguers reporting to the state college graduates everyday.
3
It's clear that things have changed and the admissions process is a difficult phase, now more than ever. My kids are about to enter this madness and, as a Yale graduate, my kids understand that my school is now a longshot for just about anyone. But here is my question, and my problem with this article: Why is it that the definition of success must be tech entrepreneurs and Fortune 500 CEOs? Really? This is exactly the type of thinking that has led us to the college rat-race to begin with.
12
. Many families will be as proud as Matt's parents when their child is accepted at a community college or a lower tier college. The real March madness is our obsession with college athletic programs.
Starting out in my career, I worked with kids who graduated from elite institutions, as well as kids who put together a good education from community college and state universities. What do elite degrees give you in the real world? A foot in the door and about a six-month head start. Then it's all up to you.
3
College is more than prestige and networking possibilities for later life, as important as those things are. I went to an Ivy as did my two sons. For all of us, going to a highly selective college meant having fellow classmates who are smart, highly motivated, competent and engaging. At a top school you learn more from your classmates than from the faculty. All the more reason to go to a highly selective school.
3
I went to a state undergrad program and a state grad program. I too surrounded myself with classmates who are smart, highly motivated, competent and engaging. We too learned more from one another than our faculty. I'm sure there are many spectrums of people at Ivy League schools, just as there are at state schools. It's the people you surround yourself with that matters most, no matter an Ivy League school or a state school. Keep that in mind.
5
It was good to share this with a friend whose daughter is seriously considering a move to a different school district because her 13-year old daughter's school is warning about college admissions. Although she felt there was nothing she could say to dissuade her daughter, she is delighted to have the article and the comments to pass on.
Thank you, Frank Bruni.
Thank you, Frank Bruni.
Way to go Matt! Lehigh alumna '85
1
One should refuse to substitute a decision, made years ago, of an anonymous, largely unaccountable college admissions committee, most or all of the members of which never met the person who is the subject of the decision, for one's own views of that person's character and present abilities.
2
A modest proposal. Fire 1/2 the admissions department. Allow the remaining group to select 1/2 the admissions paying special attention to rich folks,legacies,oboe players,science geniuses, offensive linemen and whatever. Then set the minimum SATs and GPA for the institution and select the remaining half by lot. In 7 years compare and contrast the groups.
Our daughter has an offer of appointment to my (and my hubby's) alma mater, the Naval Academy, but she is waiting to see what all her options are before making her final decision. If she ends up attending a civilian college, Tuition/Room and Board will cost us anywhere from $0 to $15K/year, thanks to my Post 9/11 GI Bill Benefits which I've transferred to her. So for us, we are among the rare and lucky who aren't concerned with how to pay for college. The bigger question has been what is the right fit for her. Fortunately, she is able to envision herself being happy at all of the schools on her list (well, maybe not all the time at Annapolis), and she has wisely stated that her college choice and her SAT/ACT scores do not define who she is. Hopefully, she will be as sanguine and level-headed when the rejection letters arrive, as there are bound to be some. While her ultimate choice is entirely up to her, I can't help but hope she will follow in her parents' footsteps and we will all look back on that decision with no regrets.
A beautiful letter from Matt's parents, with a sentiment I, too, try to convey every year when March rolls around. As an academic and admissions consultant in the frenzy capital of the world, Manhattan, I see first-hand the anxiety and stress this process produces. Don't fault the loving parents who want the best for their kids. Or the teenagers who have worked hard and are hoping against hope to have that work acknowledged and validated. They are only human.
We are asking our students to maintain a difficult balance: to cultivate the investment and confidence needed to create applications that present their very best selves, but not to get their hopes up regarding any specific colleges. To not feel overwhelming pressure to “do things so they will look good on college applications” but to set a high bar for personal achievement in academic and extra-curricular areas of genuine interest.
Finally, I believe we must measure college success by more than the job and career one attains after graduating. The years at college can offer incomparable intellectual, personal, and social growth. While it is true that “fit” -- and not prestige -- is the most quality to look for in a school, it’s also the case that for some students, the best fit will be found at colleges that have low acceptance rates. I encourage my students to keep as many doors open as possible.
http://thewrighttutor.com
@TheWrightTutor
We are asking our students to maintain a difficult balance: to cultivate the investment and confidence needed to create applications that present their very best selves, but not to get their hopes up regarding any specific colleges. To not feel overwhelming pressure to “do things so they will look good on college applications” but to set a high bar for personal achievement in academic and extra-curricular areas of genuine interest.
Finally, I believe we must measure college success by more than the job and career one attains after graduating. The years at college can offer incomparable intellectual, personal, and social growth. While it is true that “fit” -- and not prestige -- is the most quality to look for in a school, it’s also the case that for some students, the best fit will be found at colleges that have low acceptance rates. I encourage my students to keep as many doors open as possible.
http://thewrighttutor.com
@TheWrightTutor
1
I grew up in a family that lived by certain axioms. Of relevance here, it was axiomatic that one (a middle-class child) had to join a learned profession: medicine, law, academics. It was axiomatic that one (a middle-class child) could get a good education only at a super-elite school. And it was axiomatic that attending this or that college was a mark of one's intellectual status -- indeed, of one's worth as a human being. My siblings and parents attended super-elite colleges. Their first question about every person they encountered or read about: Where did he/she go to college?
I got into an elite college -- which I attended and where I was miserable. But if I had not gotten in, I might well have committed suicide from shame. I mean that literally. If I had somehow survived and chosen to go to some lesser school, my family would have been nice to me. They would have commiserated. They would have tried to make sure that I would be loved even though I was a failure.
Horrible, horrible, horrible. And sooooo stupid!
I got into an elite college -- which I attended and where I was miserable. But if I had not gotten in, I might well have committed suicide from shame. I mean that literally. If I had somehow survived and chosen to go to some lesser school, my family would have been nice to me. They would have commiserated. They would have tried to make sure that I would be loved even though I was a failure.
Horrible, horrible, horrible. And sooooo stupid!
4
I entered high school with Cs and Ds in all of my classes, then dropped out. I did something interesting that year and returned to school in the 11th grade. I did better and I tried to follow my girlfriend to the University of Virginia but was rejected. Instead of going to college right away, I did something else interesting. Two years later, with great SAT scores, four AP exams with the highest scores, and of course those interesting things I did, I got into Harvard. However, I was miserable at Harvard and transferred to Columbia at a time when all of my high school classmates would be graduating college. But I was very happy there and went on to grad school, then medical school. I'm even happier now and doing what I love.
So when it came time for our kids to think about college I had this advice: try new things and commit to those which most excite you. Don't spend your childhood preparing your CV for college and don't worry about others who are. If you do extracurriculars do them because you're interested. Choose the courses in high school you care most about and do something remarkable. Just settle for passing the rest of your classes. Don't schedule every hour of every day with activities, reserve lots of time for unstructured play.
And when it comes time to apply, don't pay attention to the US News & World Report on college rankings. Choose a college based on what works for you.
Guess what? They both got into great schools and are very happy!
So when it came time for our kids to think about college I had this advice: try new things and commit to those which most excite you. Don't spend your childhood preparing your CV for college and don't worry about others who are. If you do extracurriculars do them because you're interested. Choose the courses in high school you care most about and do something remarkable. Just settle for passing the rest of your classes. Don't schedule every hour of every day with activities, reserve lots of time for unstructured play.
And when it comes time to apply, don't pay attention to the US News & World Report on college rankings. Choose a college based on what works for you.
Guess what? They both got into great schools and are very happy!
6
The feeling of devastation comes, I believe, from the general assumption that admissions committees have special information about the student's prospects for success vis a vis all the other applicants. Admissions officers feed that assumption with the "we had many strong candidates this year"& the "competition was unusually tough" language. Many students bare their souls in those essays, telling truths about themselves, revealing hardships and weaknesses they haven't told to anyone else. By comparison, the denial letters are damn lies.
It would be less horrific maybe if the committees fessed up: "a lot of our accepted students aren't as strong as you are academically, but we have a football team after all", or "we don't think you would like it here" or, "we have to pull half of our students from this state, populate several top sports teams and there's a guy who's been raising money for us for years and he wants his daughter to attend, sorry". If a school did that they'd be derided and humiliated-and rightly so. People who issued a letter like that would lose their jobs. So, what to do?
Read this column, do the research- it turns out your kid is interested in x? Well the kids who do x at this "dream school" are divided into two groups- those who are well advanced in the area, and everybody else. Your kid seems like he might be competitive with the "well advanced" guys, but not yet. Do you want him to settle for the "everybody else" track? I mean, do you?
Think about it.
It would be less horrific maybe if the committees fessed up: "a lot of our accepted students aren't as strong as you are academically, but we have a football team after all", or "we don't think you would like it here" or, "we have to pull half of our students from this state, populate several top sports teams and there's a guy who's been raising money for us for years and he wants his daughter to attend, sorry". If a school did that they'd be derided and humiliated-and rightly so. People who issued a letter like that would lose their jobs. So, what to do?
Read this column, do the research- it turns out your kid is interested in x? Well the kids who do x at this "dream school" are divided into two groups- those who are well advanced in the area, and everybody else. Your kid seems like he might be competitive with the "well advanced" guys, but not yet. Do you want him to settle for the "everybody else" track? I mean, do you?
Think about it.
2
P.S. to my previous comment. I attended a very large public high school in Brooklyn. Of the 2000 seniors, only two of us got into my super-elite college. And other super-elite colleges admitted only one or none. When I went to college, I discovered that dozens and dozens of my high school classmates were just as smart or smarter than the average of my college class. And, though there were certainly very bright people at my college -- many much brighter than I -- there were almost a good many dolts from elite prep schools like Andover and Exeter. I attribute all this to anti-semitism and racism under the guise of "geographical diversity." This was more than 50 years ago. Maybe things have improved since then. Maybe.
1
Good, sensible article. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that you get most of your education, based on what you put into it yourself. Cannot help but think of Gen. Petreas' predicament. West Point, Ivy League university, Top positions, etc. did not help prevent that which was caused by his own stupidity or lack of judgment.
I, myself, learned the value of "good", however not necessarily " prestiges" education by experience. After I got an MBA from NYU, I continued with the law school. After the first year I transfered to the University of Houston, Bates College of Law for family reasons and graduated two years later. I was much happier and learned a great deal more at Bates with its open door policy and down to earth faculty than at NYU where I had pit in written request to have a 10 min chat with a faculty member. Upon graduation and admission to the Texas Bar, I got a job with a medium size law firm in Houston and two years later struck out on my own in what turned out to be a successful law practice. Then, I earned admission to the New York and Florida Bar. It has been exactly 35 years since I began working as a lawyer. Now, just look at the names of the most successful trial lawyers and count how many graduated from a "big name" law school. You are in for a big surprise.
I, myself, learned the value of "good", however not necessarily " prestiges" education by experience. After I got an MBA from NYU, I continued with the law school. After the first year I transfered to the University of Houston, Bates College of Law for family reasons and graduated two years later. I was much happier and learned a great deal more at Bates with its open door policy and down to earth faculty than at NYU where I had pit in written request to have a 10 min chat with a faculty member. Upon graduation and admission to the Texas Bar, I got a job with a medium size law firm in Houston and two years later struck out on my own in what turned out to be a successful law practice. Then, I earned admission to the New York and Florida Bar. It has been exactly 35 years since I began working as a lawyer. Now, just look at the names of the most successful trial lawyers and count how many graduated from a "big name" law school. You are in for a big surprise.
1
I'm reminded of the following adage I once heard:
In life, the A students work for the B students, the C students run the companies and the D students dedicate the buildings.
I suspect we can extend this beyond the realm of wealth and into the realm of happiness.
In life, the A students work for the B students, the C students run the companies and the D students dedicate the buildings.
I suspect we can extend this beyond the realm of wealth and into the realm of happiness.
1
My daughter is a high school sophomore and based on her PSAT results I think she will do well in terms of acceptance into decent colleges. We've been getting besieged by propaganda from a variety of schools, and it is fun for her to consider possibilities. I certainly had fewer options when I was her age, and I've gone on to do okay.
But with these perversely weird criteria that the elite colleges seem to be looking for, I wonder if the so-called Ivy League schools are actually lessening their appeal--and prestige. When I think of a kid who has gained acceptance to one of these schools, my first presumption is that they had some legacy connection which got them in. That's affirmative action for spoiled white kids, and I personally don't find that impressive--at all. My second curiosity is whether race was used as one of the admissions criteria. I'm of the school of thought that it should not be used at all. The third possibility is that the kid just completely saturated him/herself in study to get the 4.25 GPA and top 1% SAT score. That route, although the most impressive of the three, actually seems kind of shallow and conventional. Many of the cows in the herd take that path. And so, as Frank has highlighted here, some of the kids who take less obsessive routes to success actually strike me as more interesting--and more promising.
But with these perversely weird criteria that the elite colleges seem to be looking for, I wonder if the so-called Ivy League schools are actually lessening their appeal--and prestige. When I think of a kid who has gained acceptance to one of these schools, my first presumption is that they had some legacy connection which got them in. That's affirmative action for spoiled white kids, and I personally don't find that impressive--at all. My second curiosity is whether race was used as one of the admissions criteria. I'm of the school of thought that it should not be used at all. The third possibility is that the kid just completely saturated him/herself in study to get the 4.25 GPA and top 1% SAT score. That route, although the most impressive of the three, actually seems kind of shallow and conventional. Many of the cows in the herd take that path. And so, as Frank has highlighted here, some of the kids who take less obsessive routes to success actually strike me as more interesting--and more promising.
Of 17 colleges applied to my stepson has already been accepted by 3. Unfortunately those three offer little financial aid beyond the federal FAFSA. The other schools we are waiting to hear from are all what are called 100% schools in that they will, apparently, pay most or all of a kid's educational cost. Unfortunately there are a little more than 100 of those schools, and they all tend to be the most difficult academically to get into. We are poor, living on Social Security (72 and partially blind) and my wife's meager income. We are hoping Danny is accepted by a 100%er, but he and we are prepared to see him go to a community college if not. We believe he can and will get a wonderful education either way.
excellent article. Ignores the fact that the ivies don't feature on the top 50 ranked starting salary colleges. The most prestigious comes in at 51st for 2014 and the first occurence of a prestigious college comes in at 35th. The difference is 20k in starting salary.
So you saddle yourself with twice the debt for the privelege of a prestigious college name and start for less. People are mesmerized by the prestige or is it celebrity status of these institutions. Your child is only important to them in the sense of income and what they can bring to the college that will add to its prestige. Remember all the Nobel Laurates are not alumni they are buyins for garnering the prestige.
The real question is, is this really a con game of gilding the lily at your child's expense.
So you saddle yourself with twice the debt for the privelege of a prestigious college name and start for less. People are mesmerized by the prestige or is it celebrity status of these institutions. Your child is only important to them in the sense of income and what they can bring to the college that will add to its prestige. Remember all the Nobel Laurates are not alumni they are buyins for garnering the prestige.
The real question is, is this really a con game of gilding the lily at your child's expense.
1
Mr. Bruni's stories directly contradict his purported message: The "madness" of basing one's worth or value on the name of a college. In his first example, the happy ending is that Peter ended up at ... Harvard Business School. In her related Motherlode blog about Bruni's piece, KJ Dell'Antonia writes that despite going to The University of Kansas, she ended up at ... The University of Chicago for law school. So the happy ending DOES = prestige?
The other story Bruni leads with is about a student who's experience of being admitted to a prestigious school ranked #24 in the country (plus annual tuition near $50k/year) is described by Bruni as "a crushing chapter of her life." A crushing chapter in her life?! To be admitted to a highly-ranked college in sunny Southern California? This sounds more like an Onion parody than a piece in the Times.
Are there any examples of students who went to less prestigious schools, never ended up with fancy graduate degrees, but are happy in life, make a good-enough living, and have solid relationships and meaningful pursuits? Is the only way to make going to a less elite school palatable the fact that the student might end up in an elite job and/or at an elite graduate school?
If Bruni's message is that there's more to life than prestige, he shows the opposite here. And yet, as a therapist, I often see that the pursuit of prestige bestows its own emotional price in its bizarrely narrow definition of life success and happy endings.
The other story Bruni leads with is about a student who's experience of being admitted to a prestigious school ranked #24 in the country (plus annual tuition near $50k/year) is described by Bruni as "a crushing chapter of her life." A crushing chapter in her life?! To be admitted to a highly-ranked college in sunny Southern California? This sounds more like an Onion parody than a piece in the Times.
Are there any examples of students who went to less prestigious schools, never ended up with fancy graduate degrees, but are happy in life, make a good-enough living, and have solid relationships and meaningful pursuits? Is the only way to make going to a less elite school palatable the fact that the student might end up in an elite job and/or at an elite graduate school?
If Bruni's message is that there's more to life than prestige, he shows the opposite here. And yet, as a therapist, I often see that the pursuit of prestige bestows its own emotional price in its bizarrely narrow definition of life success and happy endings.
24
I feel very lucky that my daughter chose to go to early college at Simon's Rock. She avoided the pressures of the last two crazy years of high school and got an excellent college level education for 2 years. Then, with out the pressure of the freshmen admissions madness, she was able to transfer with Junior standing. . Many students are now able to take advantage of college courses at their local community college while in high school.
2
I did the same, forty years ago.
1
To put my daughter at ease, I encouraged her to go to state school from the very start citing the money we would save and the research showing the undergraduate school you attend has little to do with future "success." Unfortunately, she will be going to an elite school. I also remind her that when one door closes another opens and the course of our lives is not necessarily under our control. She has been remarkably calm during this process but I am perturbed not knowing if the money this will cost is worth it.
1
On behalf of the Admissions Office at my tippity-top-tier Alma Mater, I meet with local high school seniors and transfer students who have applied for admission and requested a local interview.
Students from a well-known private high school complain to me (I draw it out of them) about how much pressure their guidance counselors put on them to apply to the "prestige" colleges and universities rather than less illustrious institutions that may be a better fit, both intellectually and financially.
The reason for this pressure? Said private school likes to market itself by running large newspaper ads boasting of the success of its seniors in getting admitted to the highly-competitive colleges.
Their obvious message: Enroll your kid here (think $$$$) and the right doors to his/her future will open.
The bright students I speak with are disappointed with the counselors and not fooled by the hype. But their parents are, and that is sufficient.
Students from a well-known private high school complain to me (I draw it out of them) about how much pressure their guidance counselors put on them to apply to the "prestige" colleges and universities rather than less illustrious institutions that may be a better fit, both intellectually and financially.
The reason for this pressure? Said private school likes to market itself by running large newspaper ads boasting of the success of its seniors in getting admitted to the highly-competitive colleges.
Their obvious message: Enroll your kid here (think $$$$) and the right doors to his/her future will open.
The bright students I speak with are disappointed with the counselors and not fooled by the hype. But their parents are, and that is sufficient.
8
THank you Frank. I just sent this column to my law school bound son who is facing the same stress and admissions process once again.
Call me cynical but kids who can go to the best private or nearly private public schools in the country will end up just fine. I'm sorry to tell those who are inspired by this article but you can't just finagle an interview to a top management consulting firm like BCG from Indiana and then leverage that into entrance to Harvard grad school. That is so misleading. He obviously has connections at the consulting firm. These offices hire in the single digits each year so the odds are really stacked against every single applicant, let alone one from a nondistinct school.
1
Why focus on one firm that hires in the single digits each year. There are thousands of incredible opportunities in firms across the country. You are repeating the mistake highlighted by Bruni.
1
My children attended the University of Michigan, Emory, and Wayne State University here in Detroit. The rankings of these three schools are varied, but all offered more in the way of classroom teaching and life experience then any one of my children could possibly absorb. The emphasis on highly ranked schools is absurd.
1) There's too much black-and-white in the college admissions game with many parents, students, counselors, etc. believing it's Ivy League-or-bust when there are so many great colleges and universities in the US. You mentioned in the article someone who had applied to 3 Ivies and only one "safety" school. That is setting oneself up for potentially severe disappointment.
2) For many professional fields, it's where you got your graduate degree that carries more weight, not your undergrad degree. Furthermore, parents should consider smaller liberal arts colleges like Reed, Carleton, Grinnell, etc. that have superb track records of sending off their undergrads to excellent grad programs although they aren't Ivies. As a young woman from an immigrant background, I received a lot of mail from such places but didn't know what they had to offer -- education, money, and alumni-wise -- until much later in life.
3) Excel at whatever you do and the opportunities will open up. I was educated at large state universities due to family/ financial issues. But because I'm competent at what I do, as one of my hats, I now advise at the one of the elite universities on scientific matters. The people I encounter at the "elite" school are a mix -- some from Ivies true but many really talented folks that also came from state or "no name" places. Past a certain point in life, you're judged by what you can do and less by your degree.
2) For many professional fields, it's where you got your graduate degree that carries more weight, not your undergrad degree. Furthermore, parents should consider smaller liberal arts colleges like Reed, Carleton, Grinnell, etc. that have superb track records of sending off their undergrads to excellent grad programs although they aren't Ivies. As a young woman from an immigrant background, I received a lot of mail from such places but didn't know what they had to offer -- education, money, and alumni-wise -- until much later in life.
3) Excel at whatever you do and the opportunities will open up. I was educated at large state universities due to family/ financial issues. But because I'm competent at what I do, as one of my hats, I now advise at the one of the elite universities on scientific matters. The people I encounter at the "elite" school are a mix -- some from Ivies true but many really talented folks that also came from state or "no name" places. Past a certain point in life, you're judged by what you can do and less by your degree.
There is something deeply frustrating about this article. I very much agree with the main sentiment, but let's look at the leading examples of Peter and Jenna. They are dealt a substantial setback in the college admissions process, but then they triumph and overcome.
But, what if Peter *didn't* manage to somehow "finagle" an interview with that consulting firm. And, what if he *couldn't* now afford the $100,000+ it costs to get an MBA from Harvard. Likewise, Jenna managed to get a grant, be selected for Teach for America, and so on.
My point is this: all Bruni is doing is trading one high-pressure competitive stepping stone -- undergraduate admissions -- for others later along the way. Nearly all the endemic problems there apply with all these job and grant applications, graduate school applications, and so on.
But, what if Peter *didn't* manage to somehow "finagle" an interview with that consulting firm. And, what if he *couldn't* now afford the $100,000+ it costs to get an MBA from Harvard. Likewise, Jenna managed to get a grant, be selected for Teach for America, and so on.
My point is this: all Bruni is doing is trading one high-pressure competitive stepping stone -- undergraduate admissions -- for others later along the way. Nearly all the endemic problems there apply with all these job and grant applications, graduate school applications, and so on.
1
this is obviously a good, well-intentioned letter. more high school students will be rejected than accepted by the most selective colleges--by definition. what to do about it?
more than his parents' letter, i do like the apparent reaction of "matt", in your editorial, who wanted ivy league prestige, was rejected, but after a day (or a few) decided positively to move forward with what was a very good situation for him. in other words, matt experienced a "knock-down" and was able to get up and move forward. that's essentially what the college application experience is about.
our two children were fortunate to be accepted by the selective colleges they "fell in love with" and wanted to attend. i'm not going to make light of those events: the glow lasted quite awhile. but then, fortunately, our kids realized they had better make the most of their good fortune. it's what happens after the "knock down" or "lottery win" that's important.
parents (and their children) might learn to look at the college selection process as being similar to submitting artwork to a juried art exhibit: it's an extremely subjective process; some are fortunate but more are not.
there always will be future art exhibits, and selection always will be a bit arbitrary. instead of complaining about this process, or refusing to participate, a proper perspective (along with realistic application choices) will shorten the down time following rejections and better allow for the "next day".
more than his parents' letter, i do like the apparent reaction of "matt", in your editorial, who wanted ivy league prestige, was rejected, but after a day (or a few) decided positively to move forward with what was a very good situation for him. in other words, matt experienced a "knock-down" and was able to get up and move forward. that's essentially what the college application experience is about.
our two children were fortunate to be accepted by the selective colleges they "fell in love with" and wanted to attend. i'm not going to make light of those events: the glow lasted quite awhile. but then, fortunately, our kids realized they had better make the most of their good fortune. it's what happens after the "knock down" or "lottery win" that's important.
parents (and their children) might learn to look at the college selection process as being similar to submitting artwork to a juried art exhibit: it's an extremely subjective process; some are fortunate but more are not.
there always will be future art exhibits, and selection always will be a bit arbitrary. instead of complaining about this process, or refusing to participate, a proper perspective (along with realistic application choices) will shorten the down time following rejections and better allow for the "next day".
"A yes or no from Amherst or the University of Virginia or the University of Chicago is seen as the conclusive measure of a young person’s worth..."
I'm sorry to say that, in my experience, many parents regard the yes or no primarily as a comment on their worth - on their values, their skills, their discipline, their intelligence. Not so much about the child. Not that the parent would admit it.
I'm sorry to say that, in my experience, many parents regard the yes or no primarily as a comment on their worth - on their values, their skills, their discipline, their intelligence. Not so much about the child. Not that the parent would admit it.
Now that a graduate degree is practically required for all jobs, I think everyone knows the undergraduate institution no longer matters. All that matters is where you got your second (or third) degree.
2
My kids got average marks in high school, like me. And like me, they eventually attended state colleges. But both have above-average kindness and compassion. I've watched them stand up to bullies and befriend the underdog. No Ivy League degree can guarantee what I know about my children: they make the world a better place. Thank you, Frank Bruni, for this reality check. Far too many parents need it.
2
One easy fix for the messy admissions process would be to force all schools that receive federal aid to participate in a centralized admissions process like in many other countries. This will make the process lot more efficient. The schools could still retain their own admission criteria but there needs to be only 1 application that each applicant needs to submit. This will also eliminate the admission rate elitism and the games colleges play to show off as being more selective.
Also, re: Waterloo University and other foreign universities, recognize that in much of the world, the "elite" institutions in most countries are public, NOT private.
In fact, private schools are considered the "safety schools" where one may buy one's admission potentially when one's test scores, grades, etc. are not up to snuff. It is the US with its private elite institutions that is the anomaly.
In fact, private schools are considered the "safety schools" where one may buy one's admission potentially when one's test scores, grades, etc. are not up to snuff. It is the US with its private elite institutions that is the anomaly.
1
I am a European woman, married to an American husband. We have two sons, whom we raised in Europe in a pretty free, unstructured way. They went to school and the activities of their choice using public transportation since they were 7 years old. Both attended an international IB school. The older one recently applied to three colleges in the US (two public Universities, one small, liberal arts college) and was accepted in all of them. He received generous scholarships from two of them and was admitted to the Honors' Program at one of them. He did not choose based on the Ivy League criterion, but on family connections, familiarity of the place, and the landscape he loves (mountains). My husband (American) did go to an Ivy League University. I went to a public University in Europe. Both of us are now accomplished professionals earning very satisfying salaries. So, where's the stress? Honestly, I think it comes from American parents.
1
I am an Ivy product (not H or Y) but upon arrival I looked around and realized the students were not significantly different than any other upper middle class group.....certainly no better than the next 1000. The biggest problem with the Ivies is that the students end up arrogant. They are hired by their arrogant peers already in high positions and they spend the rest of their life giving horrible advice that has to be considered correct since they went to H or Y. Consider the H/Y graduates that overthrew Mossadeq in Iran, or the geniuses who brought us Viet Nam, and Kosovo, a triumph?, and Iraq, and Afghanistan and the Russian kleptocracy, Libya, Algeria ISIS and the Ukraine.....and how about financial deregulation and on and on. A recent one did Yale undergrad and HBS....a killer combination for a million or so Iraqis and 4000 US soldiers and a trillion taxpayer dollars in direct costs let alone an estimated 6 trillion in costs when one adds in Afghanistan and VA costs. And this guy went to Harvard Business School? (Full disclosure: Warren Buffett was rejected from HBS.) There is a better way that will eliminate the arrogance.....randomize admissions. Let the schools set and publish criteria as selective as they want and if a child meets them they get randomized. Those admitted are not smarter....just lucky and those that don't are not depressed and forever considered second rate.....Let us move to a meritocracy and not a labelocracy.
2
These are all beautiful greeting card sentiments for those who didn't get into their school of choice but no substitute for actually getting in.
1
Thanks for the reality check. The Common App, US News rankings and heavy marketing by schools has really warped the whole college application process. There are so many good schools and you remind us that choosing a place where you fit as opposed to a school at the top of some list is most important. My daughter got a letter this week from Harvard encouraging her to apply. Thankfully, she said that "everyone gets this, not a big deal and not applying". Some kids know its a game. Great column.
“ The obsession with elite colleges distorts reality, hurts kids and perverts education. Is there somewhere in the word where capitalism does not pervert education?
2
As a long-time high school history teacher, I have seen this frenzy up close and know something of what fuels it. Because of the changing global financial structure, American parents are more worried than ever about their children's successful place in society. They are nervous. With an Ivy League degree as historically the best tool to ward off poverty, parents are desperate for admission. Add to that the fact that the typical suburban student sends off over a dozen applications at this point also feeds the beast. Perhaps 3-5 would make more sense?
Thank you so much, Mr. Bruni.
My daughter, a graduating senior, has worked so hard. Her discipline has amazed me. She is a well-rounded person with a lot of friends, and recently spent an early Saturday morning in a cold muddy crawlspace working for Habitat for Humanity—a cause she chose to support after the applications went out, and not because she was racking up "accomplishments".
She is an intellectually curious person, a good writer, and a very good student with good grades. Just not quite good enough: her GPA is maybe a tenth of a point under the cutoff for direct admission to the program she wants and for the juicy scholarships, and her ACT and SAT scores are just under the arbitrary number that supposedly divides the gifted from the not.
She's a dedicated, competent, sociable, hardworking, attractive, dignified but fun person who will be an asset to any employer. But no "elite" college is interested in her.
Her academic superstar friends are courted for their high test scores and GPAs, but haven't a clue what they want to study or what their goals are beyond school. She chose a practical major with a flexible lifelong career path and a chance for international travel, which she loves.
Indiana University is our hometown school, and though I wish she could spread her wings elsewhere, today you have somehow made me proud that we have more accepting standards.
But we still have no idea how, with our slightly below median income, we can pay for college.
My daughter, a graduating senior, has worked so hard. Her discipline has amazed me. She is a well-rounded person with a lot of friends, and recently spent an early Saturday morning in a cold muddy crawlspace working for Habitat for Humanity—a cause she chose to support after the applications went out, and not because she was racking up "accomplishments".
She is an intellectually curious person, a good writer, and a very good student with good grades. Just not quite good enough: her GPA is maybe a tenth of a point under the cutoff for direct admission to the program she wants and for the juicy scholarships, and her ACT and SAT scores are just under the arbitrary number that supposedly divides the gifted from the not.
She's a dedicated, competent, sociable, hardworking, attractive, dignified but fun person who will be an asset to any employer. But no "elite" college is interested in her.
Her academic superstar friends are courted for their high test scores and GPAs, but haven't a clue what they want to study or what their goals are beyond school. She chose a practical major with a flexible lifelong career path and a chance for international travel, which she loves.
Indiana University is our hometown school, and though I wish she could spread her wings elsewhere, today you have somehow made me proud that we have more accepting standards.
But we still have no idea how, with our slightly below median income, we can pay for college.
2
I first encountered the harmful madness of conning kids (and parents - or vice versa) into thinking that where you go to school (grade, mid, high, college) will determine your life forever when I moved to Manhattan from the mid west over 50 years ago. Since then I have watched it spread from the East Coast to the West Coast and ooze out into the middle middle class from the upper crust. It clearly was nonsense then and still is now. It is like the cosmetic makers selling people on how young they will stay "if only you use our product." 99% of the results have nothing to do with the product being sold (in this case by Alum who want to feel superior and Educators who want high salaries.) There is a reason Harvard drop outs do well - and it is not because they went to Harvard.
2
Thank you Mr. Bruni for talking such good sense! I loved your column and thank you for writing it. Matts' parents letter brought tears to my eyes. Thank God for parents like them. My daughter is off to college next year. She is competitive for and has been admitted to some of our country's elite institutions but her ultimate choice will be based on where she feels most comfortable and where she can grow and thrive as a person and not just as a student. She will not attend the highest ranked school she can get into but the one that fits her the best.
Mr. Bruni: Wholeheartedly, you are smack right on the money!. It's not a specific college or anything that makes you a decent human being. It's you, a decent human being, that makes you great. That, a decent human being, is what we need in this world!. Thank you for your trenchant observation.
1
I agree with all of this, but notice the focus on careers in education and business. If I'm not mistaken, all nine Supreme Court justices went to either Harvard or Yale law school. This is, in my opinion, not necessary to produce the best Supreme Court possible, but it is a fact.
I am afraid the author is not aware of Computer Science specifics which is important for Y Combinator. University of Waterloo is well known among Computer Science academics as one of the best *undergraduate CS degrees* in the entire world and has been for the last 20 or 30 years, so it was no surprise to anyone from CS. However, kudos to the author for a nice "step back" view of the admissions craziness. When it comes to undergraduate degrees - other than potential connections you might get at the top places - there is little in terms of actual education to gain when comparing top 5 to top 50 etc colleges and there are plenty of overseas undergraduate institutions which would still be accepted by US Financial Aid but would cost one less in "international fees" and "living expenses" than attending something like Bucknell in US. Look up some Universities in NZ for example (cheaper living expenses than Australia/Canada/UK)...
2
Every parent should prepare their own version of the Levins' letter to their son. Beautifully done. The very best college for you is the one that accepts you.
Bruni's stories directly contradict his purported message: The "madness" of basing one's worth or value on the name of a college. In his first example, the happy ending is that Peter ended up at ... Harvard Business School. In her related Motherlode blog about Bruni's piece, KJ Dell'Antonia writes that despite going to The University of Kansas, she ended up at ... The University of Chicago for law school. So the happy ending DOES = prestige?
The other story Bruni leads with is about a student who's experience of being admitted to a prestigious school ranked #24 in the country (plus annual tuition near $50k/year) is described by Bruni as "a crushing chapter of her life." A crushing chapter in her life?! To be admitted to a highly-ranked college in sunny Southern California? This sounds more like an Onion parody than a piece in the Times.
Are there any examples of students who went to less prestigious schools, never ended up with fancy graduate degrees, but are happy in life, make a good-enough living, and have solid relationships and meaningful pursuits? Is the only way to make going to a less elite school palatable the fact that the student might end up in an elite job and/or at an elite graduate school?
If Bruni's message is that there's more to life than prestige, he shows the opposite here. And yet, as a therapist, I often see that the pursuit of prestige bestows its own emotional price in its bizarrely narrow definition of life success and happy endings.
The other story Bruni leads with is about a student who's experience of being admitted to a prestigious school ranked #24 in the country (plus annual tuition near $50k/year) is described by Bruni as "a crushing chapter of her life." A crushing chapter in her life?! To be admitted to a highly-ranked college in sunny Southern California? This sounds more like an Onion parody than a piece in the Times.
Are there any examples of students who went to less prestigious schools, never ended up with fancy graduate degrees, but are happy in life, make a good-enough living, and have solid relationships and meaningful pursuits? Is the only way to make going to a less elite school palatable the fact that the student might end up in an elite job and/or at an elite graduate school?
If Bruni's message is that there's more to life than prestige, he shows the opposite here. And yet, as a therapist, I often see that the pursuit of prestige bestows its own emotional price in its bizarrely narrow definition of life success and happy endings.
3
Go Lehigh. Looks like you will help educate a good kid. Make the most of it.
2
I agree! As someone who went to Lehigh, works at Lehigh, and has a son who is attending right now, I can say that Matt's decision to go to Lehigh is a win-win. He and his family must be wonderful members of our community AND Matt will have excellent teaching and amazing opportunities.
What is missing in this article is any discussion of what a good college actually is and should be. If a good college is one that offers the potential for lots on interaction in small classes with full faculty members and the ability to establish relationships with professors, than most of the universities mentioned in this article aren't good colleges. Most of the universities mentioned here have scores and even hundreds of students in their introductory and intermediate classes, and no matter what these schools claim the professors are primarily interested in interaction with their graduate and professional students in the school has graduate and professional students.
1
Frank:
A great column. My wife and I are the parents of six wonderful adults. One can never forget the tension attending the college application season. All went to very solid schools none of which were the select schools in your essay. At the beginning of each season , we told them to relax and remember that the best school for each of them was the one that recognized their unique skills and accepted them.
There are hundreds of fine colleges and universities in this country with dedicated faculty that want you to learn. I told each to select a course of study that they felt passionate about and then work as hard as you can to learn as much as possible for the next four years. They did that and each majored in the humanities or art . They are happy today in a variety of fields where if not directly then indirectly they use the knowledge, study habits and life lessons they acquired in those four years.
A great column. My wife and I are the parents of six wonderful adults. One can never forget the tension attending the college application season. All went to very solid schools none of which were the select schools in your essay. At the beginning of each season , we told them to relax and remember that the best school for each of them was the one that recognized their unique skills and accepted them.
There are hundreds of fine colleges and universities in this country with dedicated faculty that want you to learn. I told each to select a course of study that they felt passionate about and then work as hard as you can to learn as much as possible for the next four years. They did that and each majored in the humanities or art . They are happy today in a variety of fields where if not directly then indirectly they use the knowledge, study habits and life lessons they acquired in those four years.
1
William Deresiewicz addressed the issue in 'Excellent Sheep.' The current system is not good for society, and not truly good for the students, though it may help their careers.
'The trouble starts at admission. Top universities woo thousands of teenagers to apply, but seek one defined type: the student who has taken every Advanced Placement class and aced every exam, made varsity in a sport, played an instrument in the state youth orchestra and trekked across Nepal. This demanding system looks meritocratic. In practice, though, it aims directly at the children of the upper middle class, groomed since birth by parents, tutors and teachers to leap every hurdle. (The very rich can gain admission without leaping much of anything, as Deresiewicz also points out.)'
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/books/review/excellent-sheep-by-willia...
'The trouble starts at admission. Top universities woo thousands of teenagers to apply, but seek one defined type: the student who has taken every Advanced Placement class and aced every exam, made varsity in a sport, played an instrument in the state youth orchestra and trekked across Nepal. This demanding system looks meritocratic. In practice, though, it aims directly at the children of the upper middle class, groomed since birth by parents, tutors and teachers to leap every hurdle. (The very rich can gain admission without leaping much of anything, as Deresiewicz also points out.)'
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/books/review/excellent-sheep-by-willia...
3
It all starts in the 8th grade when your(our) kids are applying to an elite High School - the process is the same as applying to college. They need to take a difficult exam (SSAT or ISEE, or even SAT), write essays, go through numerous interviews and face the acceptance rates blow 10%. These elite schools are need blind in most cases, so anyone can apply and these kind are competing with the best and the brightest. If you have your kids in privileged suburban public schools then stop complaining, you have it easy.
2
Decent article but there are too many like it that basically try to talk students down from the ledge (sometimes literally) before they jump. Isn't it better to give students (and families) the facts rather than convey the misguided idea that it doesn't matter what college you attend ?
For good or bad, the selectivity of the school a student attends matters more or less depending on the intended career path. In fact, Bruni makes this point himself, "And he finagled a way, off campus, to interview with several of the top-drawer consulting firms that trawled for recruits at the Ivies but often bypassed schools like Indiana." Certain careers like consulting, Wall Street, medicine and law generally require that you attend much more competitive schools. Of course, there are exceptions such as Peter in this story. But the exceptions prove the general rule. Bruni looked at the Fortune 500 whose CEO's largely didn't attend the Ivies. And it's simply not that competitive to get a job at GM as an example. But now look at the CEO's of Wall Street - Dimon from JP Morgan (Harvard), Gorman from Morgan Stanley (Columbia) and Blankfein from Goldman (Harvard).
This isn't meant to discourage students or families. Many other growing professions like IT don't seem to require these super-competitive schools. As a father who went through this with my daughter, my advice is to target those schools that have the reputation in the area your child has interest.
For good or bad, the selectivity of the school a student attends matters more or less depending on the intended career path. In fact, Bruni makes this point himself, "And he finagled a way, off campus, to interview with several of the top-drawer consulting firms that trawled for recruits at the Ivies but often bypassed schools like Indiana." Certain careers like consulting, Wall Street, medicine and law generally require that you attend much more competitive schools. Of course, there are exceptions such as Peter in this story. But the exceptions prove the general rule. Bruni looked at the Fortune 500 whose CEO's largely didn't attend the Ivies. And it's simply not that competitive to get a job at GM as an example. But now look at the CEO's of Wall Street - Dimon from JP Morgan (Harvard), Gorman from Morgan Stanley (Columbia) and Blankfein from Goldman (Harvard).
This isn't meant to discourage students or families. Many other growing professions like IT don't seem to require these super-competitive schools. As a father who went through this with my daughter, my advice is to target those schools that have the reputation in the area your child has interest.
3
Thanks, Mr. Bruni for your article. Having just sent one daughter to college last year and starting the process again with her younger sister, I was hoping to find some concrete advice on how to survive the college admissions madness. Unfortunately, I didn't find it, and I think the reason has less to do with your analysis of college admissions than with the current state of American colleges. Both daughters are seeking a liberal arts education. Most public universities do not provide small classroom experiences or the teacher access that is vital to this degree. I know that universities have honors programs, but that leaves us still with an enormous school that presents endless bureaucratic hoops and finagling to get the right classes. Many students are ready and prepared for this. I have no doubt that my daughters could handle it as well. But the smaller liberal arts colleges provide an infinitely more manageable setting--at drastically over-inflated costs. What is a middle-income family to do? In our older daughter's case, we are relying on some financial assistance from the college, a merit scholarship, and significant help from my parents. Without that last advantage, both girls would no doubt "Go to the U" and find their way amid the chaos. Our problem is not finding the right elite college, it's finding the right liberal arts school that will give us the financial aid we need to maintain our less than glorious lifestyle. Can you tell us how to survive that madness?
2
Amen! I attended a superb public university, which was the only thing I could afford at the time, and now teach at an Ivy. The combination of personal psychological devastation wrought by not getting admitted to a favored school and financial devastation wrought by getting admitted to an elite school is horrendous in 2015. May all of us in the village learn from the wisdom of the Levins and pass along to all of our collective children that college admissions officers are not the ultimate judges of either success or happiness. Thank you for a wonderful column.
So many readers will, and have, appreciated the reassurance Frank Bruni offers.
What about the students who do not dream of attending college... who do not even seriously think about applying.. who lack the experience of the assumption, since birth, that they will go to college.
I'd love to read about how "non-dreamers" begin to dream and even get accepted to 4-year undergraduate institutions. Those are the students who need us.
What about the students who do not dream of attending college... who do not even seriously think about applying.. who lack the experience of the assumption, since birth, that they will go to college.
I'd love to read about how "non-dreamers" begin to dream and even get accepted to 4-year undergraduate institutions. Those are the students who need us.
1
I have to chuckle at the comment by the guy at Y Combinator re: the "track records" of entrepreneurial Stanford students. Stanford students have an amazing record of starting up successful enterprises and these days, most don't need to use formal accelerators/incubators like Y Combinator to get going--with a well-developed idea and business model they can attract angel investors and venture capital on their own.
As someone on a similar trajectory to Peter in this article - while the author is correct in a sense, and kids from wealthier school districts can really calm down about trying to get into an elite university (my past self included), I fear his message will only be comforting to the wealthy. The first anecdote basically says, "If you go to an elite high school but can't get into an elite university, fear not! You'll still be at the top of your class in the medium to good universities."
2
Thanks, Frank. There is immense pressure on seniors in high school now. It's great to put all of this in perspective. However, you neglect to identify one of the main culprits in this pressure game: USNWR.
Their college rankings have made a lot of money for the parent company, but the rankings are just not that useful. The methodology is flawed: "reputation" accounts for 22% of a school's score; faculty salaries account for another 7%. These have, functionally, nothing to do with an undergrad's experience. For USNWR to claim that they can in any real way quantify the quality of these institutions as centers for undergraduate learning is ridiculous.
The emperor is wearing no clothes. What's worse, of course, is the frenzy with which the rankings are reviewed by college seniors, their parents and uni administrators. How narrowly self interested and lacking in imagination must we be to let pseudo-scientific analysis determine (in part or whole) our kids' list of desired colleges? Who is in the driver's seat in this process? Review the methodology yourself:http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2014/09/08/how-us....
Their college rankings have made a lot of money for the parent company, but the rankings are just not that useful. The methodology is flawed: "reputation" accounts for 22% of a school's score; faculty salaries account for another 7%. These have, functionally, nothing to do with an undergrad's experience. For USNWR to claim that they can in any real way quantify the quality of these institutions as centers for undergraduate learning is ridiculous.
The emperor is wearing no clothes. What's worse, of course, is the frenzy with which the rankings are reviewed by college seniors, their parents and uni administrators. How narrowly self interested and lacking in imagination must we be to let pseudo-scientific analysis determine (in part or whole) our kids' list of desired colleges? Who is in the driver's seat in this process? Review the methodology yourself:http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2014/09/08/how-us....
3
I am particularly annoyed and troubled by the example of Jenna. It is a stark reminder about how many pushing the concept of "educational reform" have never experienced public schools, not as a student, teacher or parent. These include Bill Gates and Cathie Black, once Michael Bollomberg's choice to run the NYC schools. Jenna might well be great, but how can her Phillips Exeter experience help thos charter students. And doesn't a 26 year old need more seasoning before we plunk her down at the "helm" of a school. Reformers say no. The results say otherwise.
3
Mr. Bruni 's piece is spot on. What is most important about college is achieving the right fit. Our middle son, a National Merit scholar, applied to the Ivies. He was involved in a myriad of activities during his high school years. However, his high test scores and grades (he had taken a record number of AP courses and achieved high scores by the end of his junior year) along with his activities were not enough for the Ivies which rejected him. He went to the University of Alabama where he was in their Honors Program. He was encouraged to explore his many interests including the making of a documentary which was screened at an indie film fest. He spent his entire jr. year at the London School of Economics where he took advantage of the many opportunities that life in London offered. The structure of university life there afforded not only the ability to travel but to volunteer as a tutor in a local London school. This passion led him to Teach for America (putting law school on hold) where his math classes redesigned the outdoor space between buildings and raised funds to bring that design into fruition. He graduates from Berkeley's Boalt School of Law this May and will be joining a prestigious NY litigation firm as an associate - the same firm where he served as an intern last summer. It is what one makes of the opportunities that an institution affords rather than the name of the college itself that in the end is important.
2
I think we may have lost track of a key element in this. There is a vast difference in the quality of schools especially after the proliferation of for profits and some state schools attempting to horn in on that income. The effect is that some degrees aren't worth the paper they're on.
In my field, the list of schools from which we'll interview is very short and is a direct result of this excess of poor quality schools. The outgrowth of this is this article. There is a keen competition for good schools because there are so many not so good ones.
In my field, the list of schools from which we'll interview is very short and is a direct result of this excess of poor quality schools. The outgrowth of this is this article. There is a keen competition for good schools because there are so many not so good ones.
1
This is a great editorial. I went to Yale, after turning down Harvard, I received a great education, but I really didn't like it much. Never felt competitive. Didn't feel as though I fit. Got into the psychology honors program, and did a senior thesis, senior comprehensives, etc., and realized that the small group atmosphere of the honors program was terrific, my classmates were motivated, and I thoroughly enjoyed the study and the research, and thoroughly enjoyed my close contact with professors. It was clear that the small situation suited me best, and if I had it to do over again, it would have been all about fit, and not reputation. Clearly I would have been better off at a smaller high quality college or university, a state school honors program and not one of the top universities in the country. By the time I graduated, I was glad that I went to Yale, the honors program was excellent, but in the process, I was not really excited to be there. I ended up as a professor and dean--and early on the director of an honors program which I patterned after the one I had taken part in. It was at that point that I was really grateful for what I received, even though I tolerated it rather than liked it.
2
I couldn't agree more. I only wish that middle and high schools would stop putting so much pressure on students to excel. Yes, students should do their very best, but browbeating them with the threat of not getting into a "good" school (especially when they're still very young) is counter productive. We've forgotten what it's like to be teenagers -- how little we regarded adult advice and how overwhelming the world can seem.
thoughtfully and wonderfully well written.
I work at an Ivy League medical school, and I can tell you Medical School admissions are even crazier that undergraduate admissions, and also, with sorely inadequate data about the outcomes of the admission process on both the accepted and rejected applicants.
I work at an Ivy League medical school, and I can tell you Medical School admissions are even crazier that undergraduate admissions, and also, with sorely inadequate data about the outcomes of the admission process on both the accepted and rejected applicants.
1
David Nyhan in the Boston Globe wrote a superb column in 1987 that puts a lot of this in proper perspective, especially for anyone who receives a college reduction letter. See it here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/0...
2
Thank you for this article. As a mother of a kindergartener and a 1 year old I was all settled in my views that only an Ivy league college would work for the success of my kids. Now I'm having second thoughts. In 10 years I hope the pendulum will somehow move to the center.
Please, yes, have a heart. You don't even know your kids yet, in the sense of knowing what sort of education they might want or need, or what their abilities mor interests may be. This article is a sucess if it has persuaded you and a few other people go back way off, dreaming of the Ivies when your kids are barely out of diapers. Your kids WILL be affected by your fantssies (or by the weight - I'd rather say scourge - of "legacy").
As a senior at a great public high school who just finished the college application process, I think that we’re already beginning a shift towards increased “personalization” of the process of choosing a college, a trend that it seems most writers about the subject would embrace. One of my best friends—my school’s valedictorian, in fact—chose to apply to a second-tier school for financial reasons. I was lucky enough to get into Harvard this year, but I applied because I believe it’s the right choice for me (and the financial aid package was enough—I didn’t get in because I could pay $62,250 a year). I enter college knowing that I would have been happy at any of my so-called “safety” schools—and every student should have that sense of confidence. It’s the job of parents and guidance counselors (mine did a fantastic job of this), as well as society in general, to teach stressed-out seniors that the name isn’t as important as the fit!
Good grief...This point of view only applies to those who already have upper-middle and upper class connections, cultural exposure and life experience at their disposal. For the overwhelming majority of good students - even very, very good students - of relatively modest backgrounds: If your definition of success includes rising to the very top of your field and securing a place in the upper middle class, you are making your task exponentially more difficult - and in many cases, outright impossible - if you follow this advice. Sure, this won't be true for everyone. But it's true for most people, and you should assume you are not the exception to this rule.
Elite colleges don't just offer a far higher quality educational experience. Elite colleges attract elite students who will one day run elite employers, and be more likely to hire people they know from those elite colleges. This is true. It has always been true. To a certain extent - at least, for the foreseeable - it will always be true. There can always be the exception that proves the rule, but a kid with no connections or family money who picks Boise State over Harvard will probably never be as successful as if he'd made the opposite decision. Anyone who advises a student there's no difference, just as a blanket rule, should be ashamed of themselves.
Elite colleges don't just offer a far higher quality educational experience. Elite colleges attract elite students who will one day run elite employers, and be more likely to hire people they know from those elite colleges. This is true. It has always been true. To a certain extent - at least, for the foreseeable - it will always be true. There can always be the exception that proves the rule, but a kid with no connections or family money who picks Boise State over Harvard will probably never be as successful as if he'd made the opposite decision. Anyone who advises a student there's no difference, just as a blanket rule, should be ashamed of themselves.
11
As my sister, the private wealth management professional told me, "I work with a lot of people who went to colleges I'd never even heard of before, and they are making the same living I am. The most important facet is the work ethic and the people skills of the individual".
3
It is hardly news that one can receive an excellent education at almost all american colleges and universities. It is also true that everyone, no matter what their educational background, can rise to the level of their potential given the opportunity. However, it is also true that the colleges you cite as 'elite' are in fact institutions that students are proud to be accepted by no matter what the odds, and it is unfair to characterize them as if their reputations, history, educational offerings, and importance in our society are irrelevant or over rated. These are great educational institutions that have produced way more than their fair share of leaders in our country in all walks of life. Not withstanding the success of the University of Waterloo, Stanford is still an extraordinary institution. Any student wishing to apply to these institutions of higher learning with the appropriate hard won credentials should be praised for their efforts whether they are accepted or not. Aspiration is a wonderful characteristic of our youth and should be supported....not treated with cynicism. It may be true that our society over inflates the importance of trying to be accepted at these Universities but that has nothing to do with the value or deserved prestige of the universities themselves.
4
My parents actively discouraged me from applying to Ivy league colleges, and kept me out of piano competitions and all the rest of the young person's rat race. I railed against them at the time but I now I see the wisdom. The endless pursuit of accolades from disinterested third parties leads nowhere. And it is truly endless. Success and happiness comes from applying yourself to accomplishing something for yourself and humanity. [I ended up at Harvey Mudd College].
2
IU has a top 10 undergraduate business school. I know plenty of people who were recruited on campus by the likes of Delloite and Bain and others who work at Goldman Sachs as investment bankers. The list goes on and on. I resent the characterization of IU as some backwater business school and institution that firms ignore. The argument here is that Peter excelled at IU due to a lack of competition rather than the education and opportunities he had at IU. The elitist undertones in this are so apparent.
It is probably clear from my first paragraph, but I went to Indiana University. I was a great student in high school, but I never once thought about applying to Ivies. Why? Its simple. I knew I would have the same basic opportunities at IU (e.g. research), and I knew that I would be debt free afterwards. I was also fortunate enough not to have parents that wanted my college admissions process to be a talking point or a badge of honor among friends. I am now in medical school in California, and I can say with confidence that I am at the level of or above my peers who went to Ivies. I've always said that the undergraduate experience is what you make of it.
In summary, I agree with most of what this article says, but the delivery and tone at the start (especially regarding IU) makes me think it is a bit of a backhanded complement.
Source:
USNW
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/bus...
It is probably clear from my first paragraph, but I went to Indiana University. I was a great student in high school, but I never once thought about applying to Ivies. Why? Its simple. I knew I would have the same basic opportunities at IU (e.g. research), and I knew that I would be debt free afterwards. I was also fortunate enough not to have parents that wanted my college admissions process to be a talking point or a badge of honor among friends. I am now in medical school in California, and I can say with confidence that I am at the level of or above my peers who went to Ivies. I've always said that the undergraduate experience is what you make of it.
In summary, I agree with most of what this article says, but the delivery and tone at the start (especially regarding IU) makes me think it is a bit of a backhanded complement.
Source:
USNW
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/bus...
1
Best comment on here. Kudos to you!!
Great article. Frank already alluded to the fact that the Ivy League schools, contrary to common perception, do not really play a significant role in corporate America. Their business plan is to sell ever more degrees to a high paying foreign clientele, and they are transforming into a kind of intangible LVTM outfit. In addition, it is really not that difficult to run any educational institution which accepts only the top 0.4 % or so of the applicant pool. Everybody can do that. What value are they actually conveying to American society ? I really applaud those kids who think "out of the box" when choosing their educational pathway. In the long run, this will help to level the perceived differences in educational degree value.
1
The entire process has become hateful and destructive. So many years ago, I too followed the path of Peter Hart in your article. I went to IU --what a great school, for all the reasons you articulate so well. I then transferred to Cornell thinking it was a clear step up. While it certainly is a world class school, I found the IU education actually better for me -- i.e. I think of those classes and professors to this day with greater warmth and affection which in the end, is a lot of what it is all about.
1
Nothing stings quite like that rejection letter.
1
Frank,
You seem like a grounded person. I like the way you think, and wonder why there aren´t more people like you... I have been following all of your articles on higher education and couldn´t agree with you more. I live in Bogotá, Colombia but was born and raised in Philadelphia, PA and am currently experiencing my daughter´s application process to universities in Germany. Just last night we were talking about how most kids in the US already know where they are going to school. Here, we are still in that process, and I have to say that I don´t see the stress and pressure that we´re used to seeing in the states. True, she has been in an IB private school, so that´s an advantage in any country, especially in Colombia. But, everyone seems to be far more relaxed here than our counterparts in the USA. And, I´m a firm believer, that the university does not make the person. It´s a great start, but we need to teach our kids that it starts at home; and that sometimes, failure is the beginning of success, however you measure it.
It´s not where you go to school, it´s who you are and what you do with that precious gift of higher education, that counts.
We have to teach our kids to believe in themselves; and we, in turn, have to believe in ourselves (not always an easy task). We all need to focus on what really matters, with all the labels stripped away.
You seem like a grounded person. I like the way you think, and wonder why there aren´t more people like you... I have been following all of your articles on higher education and couldn´t agree with you more. I live in Bogotá, Colombia but was born and raised in Philadelphia, PA and am currently experiencing my daughter´s application process to universities in Germany. Just last night we were talking about how most kids in the US already know where they are going to school. Here, we are still in that process, and I have to say that I don´t see the stress and pressure that we´re used to seeing in the states. True, she has been in an IB private school, so that´s an advantage in any country, especially in Colombia. But, everyone seems to be far more relaxed here than our counterparts in the USA. And, I´m a firm believer, that the university does not make the person. It´s a great start, but we need to teach our kids that it starts at home; and that sometimes, failure is the beginning of success, however you measure it.
It´s not where you go to school, it´s who you are and what you do with that precious gift of higher education, that counts.
We have to teach our kids to believe in themselves; and we, in turn, have to believe in ourselves (not always an easy task). We all need to focus on what really matters, with all the labels stripped away.
Agreed, Mr. Bruni. I drank the name-brand school Kool-Aid almost 4 decades ago, and dealt with years of feeling out of place and out of touch with my own goals as a result. The prestige of the school led me to believe that any mismatch was a flaw in my character, rather than an honest expression of who I was; as a result, the expensive degree I earned felt like it belonged to someone else. I would counsel my younger self as I do my own children: pay attention to your gut, connect with people wherever you are. If any of that isn't working, do something else. The answer isn't in the school, it's in the experiences you have with fellow travelers.
4
As someone who has been interviewing high school seniors applying to her alma mater-University of Pennsylvania-for the past 20 years, I am encouraged to see what is now an insane college admissions system addressed in this column. I couldn't agree more with what has been written and essentially espouse the motto that everything happens for a reason. However, I think it is also important to say, that as a minority female in the US, the social capital bestowed upon me by attending Penn and another Ivy League school for my graduate studies is priceless. While hard work, serendipity, personality, talents, and more all contribute to one's journey in life, social dynamics greatly influence this path in ways that are not always tangible. For children of immigrants, for those who are the first to go to college in their families, for those who come from homes with very little support, attending college is a ticket to moving on up and/or forward. I don't think Bruni is at all discounting or deflating the merits of attending a great (relative word) school, but I think it's important to recognize the social mobility and/or respected it confers when needed--particularly for those who are not as well connected and networked as others. More than anything else, I think it's worth examining from where this obsessive premium placed on elite colleges stems. It is fueling a completely distorted and dysfunctional system.
10
And remember: Tom Hanks really made something out of his Community College experience.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/opinion/tom-hanks-on-his-two-years-at-...
It's not the college, but the imagination and ambition of the student that makes the experience positive and productive.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/opinion/tom-hanks-on-his-two-years-at-...
It's not the college, but the imagination and ambition of the student that makes the experience positive and productive.
1
I am troubled by your single brush stroke dismissing all parents and children waiting to finalize the long college process this month, who are not thinking about the Ivy League. It has a tone of, 'those people don't bleed' they will settle for anything. Do we really think only kids aiming for the Ivy League experience stress, disappointment and all the myriad of emotions that go along with the college admission process . Do we believe only mothers and fathers of the well off love and comfort their children no matter what? This same type of attitude is what allows us to provide subpar resources, food, clothes and opportunities. The dehumanization of people who are not us. More and more, I wonder, who is the New York Tmes for anyway, as I again ponder canceling my little blue bag.
1
It is worth noting that this hypercompetitive admission process did not occur by accident. The relentless, non stop marketing of the elite schools by their publicity departments is largely responsible. The barrage of mail, phone calls, pseudo "information" sessions that high school students are hit with tell the students over and over that there is one perfect school and they are exactly the student that school is looking for.......
1
I once looked up the educational background of the CEOs of the top fortune 30 companies. Undergraduate degrees from non-Ivy institutions were quite common. There were two reasons for this; first, many of these CEOs had undergraduate degrees in engineering, and engineering is an unusually egalitarian field. The undergraduate programs don't vary much from one school to another; a top engineer student at Texas A&M will have as many options as the top engineering student at MIT, and, once they begin working in industry, professional competence quickly outweighs academic pedigree.
The other reason is that most of the CEOs went on to graduate school, and even the most elite graduate programs accept many students from non-Ivy level programs.
The other reason is that most of the CEOs went on to graduate school, and even the most elite graduate programs accept many students from non-Ivy level programs.
1
Matt will do well because he has wonderful parents and a good support system. I think that makes a bigger difference in life than the school one attends.
31
and because Lehigh is a great school.
Yes, the process is so flawed and deeply unjust as so many worthy students don't even believe they have a chance to go to college, never mind a more selective school. Legacy, athletics, ability to pay often come before character. As my son waits for the final admission letters, my greatest fear is affordability, and not prestige. I want more than anything for him to be happy and nurture his soul for the next four years!
That was brilliant and so very prescient. May I now request that you write a similar piece on the brutal NYC public high school admissions process that 76,000 8th graders recently endured. Many got their top choices, many got skunked -- no choices. And most (like my son) realize that they will be separating from most if not all of their friends and will have to prepare for an hour-long commute each way. Its as bad as the college-admissions process but it hits these kids when they're barely starting puberty.
11
Outstanding. This needs to be shared with the college crazed everywhere. And especially those parents who have pressured their kids from birth to accept nothing less than Ivies. How foolish!
3
Thank you, Frank, for sharing this. My high school junior daughter, like Matt, has set her sights on very exclusive colleges—Northwestern, Chicago, Brown, & Penn among them—to study biochemistry. She runs cross-county & track, participates in her high school's musical, plays trombone in both wind & jazz ensembles, wins spots in All-County & area All-State bands & orchestras, takes all honors or AP courses...& is extremely stressed out that she won't get into any of the places that she's planning to apply to. This essay is a breath of fresh air & I hope she takes it to heart.
1
Two counter points.
1- the top ten schools in the country can often be cheaper than other top 100 schools because they have so much money for scholarships.
2- (this is based on my personal experience) the top schools have an academic culture that pushes people who would normally be happy with just getting by. The top schools average student is really smarter (more or less by definition) than the average at other schools. For people like me, that means I get a lot more out of school than if I went to a less selective school.
It sounds like the people in this article would succeed no matter where they go. But for some students, the extra push of a highly selective school helps them succeed.
1- the top ten schools in the country can often be cheaper than other top 100 schools because they have so much money for scholarships.
2- (this is based on my personal experience) the top schools have an academic culture that pushes people who would normally be happy with just getting by. The top schools average student is really smarter (more or less by definition) than the average at other schools. For people like me, that means I get a lot more out of school than if I went to a less selective school.
It sounds like the people in this article would succeed no matter where they go. But for some students, the extra push of a highly selective school helps them succeed.
19
This Op-Ed piece by Frank Bruni conveys a truly salient message to students and families living through the college admissions process. Many families are overly concerned with big name colleges, believing that the prestige associated with them is something necessary to conquer. Students often have not adequately explored who they are, in terms of their personalities, their values, and their goals, and therefore do not have a grasp of what type of college would be a good fit for them. If they are not a good fit for a student, Ivies and other elite schools can squash a student's self-esteem, and perhaps contribute to poorer academic performance and less extracurricular involvement, particularly in leadership roles. Thank you Frank for highlighting the fact that students can certainly thrive, and often more so, at lesser name colleges and universities, and for sharing that incredibly poignant letter from Matt's parents. I hope it will provide inspiration to other families, and help them to learn to focus on appreciating the incredible accomplishments of their children instead of on the importance of gaining admission to elite colleges.
4
The college application process is a good lesson for incipient adulthood, as it teaches an invaluable lesson: you have to roll with the punches. Each of us can go so far in determining our path, then we have to work with things as they are. Rejections can seem arbitrary and unfair - from a college, a job, a romantic prospect, so on - but they are part of life. And every time someone wins something coveted, like a university admittance, another person is left wondering, why not me?.
5
Very good article, Mr. Bruni, and timely, as many high school seniors haven't yet found where they will go.
I had the good fortune to go to Harvard, many years ago, and now interview applicants. Not in Cambridge, but in my state...as Harvard has alumni(ae) do all over the US and abroad.
First...Harvard, for me, was great. Cutting edge professors, yes. But equally as important was the environment of my classmates, arguing ideas day and late into the night. The work was demanding. Still is. I made lifetime friends.
Now, for interviewing and being admitted. I have interviewed so many applicants over the years who fully possessed the credentials to be admitted: great grades, superior SAT/ACT scores, leadership positions in school government or clubs, statewide athletic standing, community service. Yet so many were not admitted. I couldn't have felt as bad as the students, but I almost did.
The problem is that Harvard has so many well qualified applicants that it cannot possibly take them all. Harvard strives for a balanced class. Even when I was going there, there was the tale (true or not?) of a Mass prep school headmaster who called to support the application of his student, who had good grades and was a superior offensive football lineman. The response was that Harvard had enough linemen that year, but was looking for an oboe player for the orchestra.
There are 2050 places in each Harvard class. And 35,000 applicants, among whom are over 3000 valedictorians. It is tough.
I had the good fortune to go to Harvard, many years ago, and now interview applicants. Not in Cambridge, but in my state...as Harvard has alumni(ae) do all over the US and abroad.
First...Harvard, for me, was great. Cutting edge professors, yes. But equally as important was the environment of my classmates, arguing ideas day and late into the night. The work was demanding. Still is. I made lifetime friends.
Now, for interviewing and being admitted. I have interviewed so many applicants over the years who fully possessed the credentials to be admitted: great grades, superior SAT/ACT scores, leadership positions in school government or clubs, statewide athletic standing, community service. Yet so many were not admitted. I couldn't have felt as bad as the students, but I almost did.
The problem is that Harvard has so many well qualified applicants that it cannot possibly take them all. Harvard strives for a balanced class. Even when I was going there, there was the tale (true or not?) of a Mass prep school headmaster who called to support the application of his student, who had good grades and was a superior offensive football lineman. The response was that Harvard had enough linemen that year, but was looking for an oboe player for the orchestra.
There are 2050 places in each Harvard class. And 35,000 applicants, among whom are over 3000 valedictorians. It is tough.
10
" So why do so many Americans — anxious parents, addled children — treat the period in late March and early April, when elite colleges deliver disappointing news to anywhere from 70 to 95 percent of their applicants, as if it’s precisely that? "
Do you think that maybe part of the reason is because media outlets like the New York Times almost invariably cite a school's USNWR ranking when writing anything about the school? Which implies that (1) the USNWR ranking measures the "bestness" of the school, which is blatant nonsense, and (2) that going to one of the so-called "best" schools - even if they could be identified, which they can't - is important.
Do you think that maybe part of the reason is because media outlets like the New York Times almost invariably cite a school's USNWR ranking when writing anything about the school? Which implies that (1) the USNWR ranking measures the "bestness" of the school, which is blatant nonsense, and (2) that going to one of the so-called "best" schools - even if they could be identified, which they can't - is important.
9
While I appreciate what Mr. Bruni is trying to say (and would point out that this madness starts with the parents, not the children), I quibble with his examples. He seems to be saying "Look! These kids (from very privileged high schools) did just fine going to a major state university and a (still very prestigious) private school! And they ended up in these elite, socially-sanctioned places anyway!"
Since when is BCG or Teach for America the goal for everyone? Madness, indeed. Certainly there is nothing you can't do with a degree from a major state university (any business, any grad school) if you have the right background and some pluck. But, as he pointed out, BCG doesn't interview at Indiana. So a less well-off student, if that were his/her goal, actually would not have that opportunity. In fact, I believe it has been shown that having the brand of an "elite" school on your resume does not provide anything additional to the white and already privileged, but it does help those with minority or less-advantaged backgrounds. So don't pooh pooh the elite schools for everyone.
Since when is BCG or Teach for America the goal for everyone? Madness, indeed. Certainly there is nothing you can't do with a degree from a major state university (any business, any grad school) if you have the right background and some pluck. But, as he pointed out, BCG doesn't interview at Indiana. So a less well-off student, if that were his/her goal, actually would not have that opportunity. In fact, I believe it has been shown that having the brand of an "elite" school on your resume does not provide anything additional to the white and already privileged, but it does help those with minority or less-advantaged backgrounds. So don't pooh pooh the elite schools for everyone.
32
Mr. Bruni, and all others who read his column, and especially if you have kids in High School who feel the pressure to get into a 'select' university, read this book: "Crazy U" by Andrew Ferguson. It cuts through all the bull and angst, and with tongue very firmly in cheek humorously shreds the utter ridiculousness that this whole insane process entails.
From the whole idiocy of the College 'ranking' system to the devious games that so-called--and they do want to be called elite or select--universities engage in to create and foster the whole idea that a child's worth(and their parents too) depends on getting admitted to their type of school.
Filled with humorous anecdotes, and humor is very much needed here, the book follows a year of showing the 'process' that needs to be followed to 'get in'.
Some of my favorites involved the obligatory campus visits, from observing that all the student guides learn to walk backwards around their campus to the stunning information that parents in one group got at Harvard when they demanded to know what percentage of freshmen got admitted by legacy. Ferguson drily noted that when the university official finally admitted that it was 40% a moan went through the room as the hopeful parents realized that their child had little to no chance of getting in.
Excellent column Mr. Bruni; and you'll enjoy the book immensely.
From the whole idiocy of the College 'ranking' system to the devious games that so-called--and they do want to be called elite or select--universities engage in to create and foster the whole idea that a child's worth(and their parents too) depends on getting admitted to their type of school.
Filled with humorous anecdotes, and humor is very much needed here, the book follows a year of showing the 'process' that needs to be followed to 'get in'.
Some of my favorites involved the obligatory campus visits, from observing that all the student guides learn to walk backwards around their campus to the stunning information that parents in one group got at Harvard when they demanded to know what percentage of freshmen got admitted by legacy. Ferguson drily noted that when the university official finally admitted that it was 40% a moan went through the room as the hopeful parents realized that their child had little to no chance of getting in.
Excellent column Mr. Bruni; and you'll enjoy the book immensely.
11
Great article.
2
My older brother had graduated from an Ivy, so when I applied to college, of course I applied to the same one, also three other elites. Got rejected by all, but the letter from the Ivy was too much. It went something like we give special consideration to family of alumni but you still don't make it. What a crushing letter for a 17 year old to receive. I was accepted at and went to the art school down the hill. Oh how glad I was that I was rejected by the other schools. Only much later did I come to know that this school was considered one of the elite art schools. Unfortunately for those who reside in the financial bracket my parents did at the time, you probably will not be able to afford this school. I graduated $400 in debt. The cost of a college degree is really the tragedy of our times, not the stress of getting into college.
34
What a terrific, inspiring piece! This is such a testament to the power of believing in your kids and the importance of helping them find the right fit--instead of trying to wedge then into a place based on reputation and prestige.
I absolutely love the idea of writing your college-bound child a letter that expresses unconditional support at a time when everything else tries to convince them their value depends on something completely subjective and unpredictable.
It's frightening the damage that is inflicted on students even by well-intentioned parents who succumb to the pressure of status and the insanity of the college admissions process and industry.
Look for ways to support your kids, help them when they need it, but also trust that there is a path for them, and that they will find it--and have the adventure of their life!
I absolutely love the idea of writing your college-bound child a letter that expresses unconditional support at a time when everything else tries to convince them their value depends on something completely subjective and unpredictable.
It's frightening the damage that is inflicted on students even by well-intentioned parents who succumb to the pressure of status and the insanity of the college admissions process and industry.
Look for ways to support your kids, help them when they need it, but also trust that there is a path for them, and that they will find it--and have the adventure of their life!
12
The problem with this column is that it either ignores or papers over the abundant evidence that Ivy League graduates dominate leadership in the public, private and nonprofit sectors. Bruni cherry-picks one measure (CEOs of top-ten Fortune 500 companies) and cites one person (the president of Y Combinator, whatever that is) in a lame attempt to claim otherwise. The evidence of Ivy League graduates' dominance is so much more abundant, from the members of the Supreme Court to the White House (elected and staffing), the leading tech companies you-have-heard-of (Google, for instance, whose founders graduated from Stanford), to Goldman Sachs and other Wall Street firms, to the national media including Bruni's own NYT - where you can bet three-quarters of the editorial staff went to the Ivy Leagues. We all understand the arguments against the status quo and why the Ivy's controlling power stinks. But striving parents and ambitious students who want to be leaders in their fields look at the evidence, unlike Bruni. Really, what other rational decision would they make than to try like hell to get into one of these schools?
87
Thank you for this timely article. It went straight to the bone as we wait for our son's college acceptance letters. He too is hoping for an Ivy League placement although his dad and I encouraged him to think more broadly fearing that it's going to be the first real time he's face drejection on this scale. How nice that your article gave me pause and reminded me that rejection build s character and that there are many paths towards education and one's goals. I LOVED the letter from the parents and plan on stealing it verbatim. Thank you.
Couldn't agree more. The folks often railing then most against the insane college application process are the same ones who already a)have an Ivy degree themselves or b)have a child at an Ivy. That's cold comfort. Still, we all learn from failure and we all must embrace the gifts we've been given - whether it be the connections and gamesmanship to get into the Ivies or similar gifts that can yield other, often happier results.
Trying to get admitted to an elite school is one thing. An excessive fixation and undue, irrational fear of the results quite another.
For all those state school success stories there are hundreds or thousands of other state college grads who never finagle interviews with Boston Consulting. But at the elite colleges - companies like Boston Consulting are on campus once or twice a year reaching out to them. Or they're placing their resumes at the top of the pile. I've been there - having sent 3 kids to three different colleges - only one to a very elite school. All things being equal - guess who had the most job interviews and opportunities?
It's disingenuous to imply that there's no added value to an elite degree. That good old American gumption will carry the day. The added value of an elite school is why our society covets admission to the elite schools. And it's disingenuous to pretend that everyone who's not offered a spot should expect to have the same opportunities. It's like other "experts" out there lately implying college is useless because Mark Zuckerberg didn't graduate from Harvard.
Of course I agree that the admissions process is flawed. There are too few spots for all the qualified kids. But to me this piece reads like a salvo to the 99% to be happy with less (and keep those ivy spots mostly for the 1%).
It's disingenuous to imply that there's no added value to an elite degree. That good old American gumption will carry the day. The added value of an elite school is why our society covets admission to the elite schools. And it's disingenuous to pretend that everyone who's not offered a spot should expect to have the same opportunities. It's like other "experts" out there lately implying college is useless because Mark Zuckerberg didn't graduate from Harvard.
Of course I agree that the admissions process is flawed. There are too few spots for all the qualified kids. But to me this piece reads like a salvo to the 99% to be happy with less (and keep those ivy spots mostly for the 1%).
48
I graduated from a state university with a degree in Computer Science, and had 6 jobs offers including from top IT firms. It's not where you went to school, it's what you studied.
1
I admit puffing up with pride to see my alma mater, Emory University, scattered throughout this article. I went to school with students who have successfully started up companies and apps; I also know individuals who have yet to hold down a job or find themselves in trouble with the law. I've been blessed to enter into my career, and while I learned a great deal at this top school, my own failures, experiences and decision to attend graduate school propelled me forward - not the name of my undergraduate institution.
One thing Mr. Bruni fails to acknowledge, though, is the value of the alumni network. The Ivies produce many who were (and are) fortunate enough to secure jobs and positions based on that invaluable network. When the hiring manager went to your school, that certainly helps. The resources, the name brand of top schools is influential and beneficial.
Work hard, accept your failures, and change what you don't like, or fight for what you do. That drive in the end is most vital. Inserting yourself into situations that challenge you and force you to grow will develop you. But: when those individuals come from the Ivies and Top 25 institutions, they'll have the leg up.
One thing Mr. Bruni fails to acknowledge, though, is the value of the alumni network. The Ivies produce many who were (and are) fortunate enough to secure jobs and positions based on that invaluable network. When the hiring manager went to your school, that certainly helps. The resources, the name brand of top schools is influential and beneficial.
Work hard, accept your failures, and change what you don't like, or fight for what you do. That drive in the end is most vital. Inserting yourself into situations that challenge you and force you to grow will develop you. But: when those individuals come from the Ivies and Top 25 institutions, they'll have the leg up.
45
We need to stop pretending that our colleges and universities are meritocracies in which the supposed "best" students are admitted. Education has become a business, a very big business with CEOs earning hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars a year. The admissions process is part of each institutions's marketing program, the objective of which is to solicit applications from the largest possible number of kids and to admit the smallest possible percentage of them -- thereby establishing their "elite" status. There is no "ideal" student profile, and decisions are often based on whether the applicant is "legacy" -- one or both of her parents are alumni -- and whether the freshman ("freshperson?") class will reflect appropriate diversity as well as quantitatively demonstrated talent. Applicants should try to avoid being caught in the marketing web each institution is spinning.
24
Furthermore, as to the meritocracy mythology & business reality: For decades universities professed to grade on "merit," but where did 99% of the "grade inflation" take place? The private colleges. Why? Absolutely opposite economic incentives determining grading at private vs. public institutions. Private colleges could expect better alumni donations if their alumni were propelled into better, more lucrative careers with shining transcripts, & accordingly graduated nearly everybody with stellar grades (at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, even a "B" (as opposed to A, A-, B ) was a rarity, lower than B almost unheard of. Meanwhile the sucker on the street says, "Wow, 3.5 GPA, & that was at HARVARD!" Meanwhile since state universities had to sort 10s of thousands of students at a time, their funding contingent on separating the wheat from the chaf, administered a Darwinian grind giving Cs and Ds with abandon: even Fs! Truth is, it's EASIER in the Ivies than the other places: the system operates on a Matthew Principle logic: to those who have will be given; from those who have not will be taken.
Under criticism, the Ivies eventually toned down the "grade inflation" & public schools gradually seeing the injustice met their counterparts halfway (about that much).
At every level what we call "meritocracy" has the character of boondoggle. But then the guy who invented the term, Michael Young, already knew that when he devised it for satire ("Rise of the Meritocracy").
Under criticism, the Ivies eventually toned down the "grade inflation" & public schools gradually seeing the injustice met their counterparts halfway (about that much).
At every level what we call "meritocracy" has the character of boondoggle. But then the guy who invented the term, Michael Young, already knew that when he devised it for satire ("Rise of the Meritocracy").
2
As a brand strategist who has worked with numerous colleges and universities to rebrand themselves, I completely agree with you.
1
"Education happens across a spectrum of settings and in infinite ways, and college has no monopoly on the ingredients for professional achievement or a life well lived." Absolutely. You can graduate from anywhere and have a great life--or a miserable one. And don't forget the incredible work of community colleges--for many these affordable institutions are the one way to access college. And that degree changes their lives. More on that here:
http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/the-community-collegereal-...
http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/the-community-collegereal-...
6
This is a superb article. I'm in mid early 60s and attended an Ivy League school. It was a perfectly fine experience, but everything that Mr. Bruni points out has resonated throughout my many years since then. In my work life. Through my own children's college experience. Well done, Frank.
2
Wonderful -- I have copied and saved some sections as advice for my grandchild.
Thank you for writing and sharing this wise essay.
Thank you for writing and sharing this wise essay.
1
It's the student and not the school that makes successful the college experience & the future it enables. The knowledge & skills one gains comes from each student's efforts, not some outside source.
4
I was rejected by 8 of the 9 schools that I applied to for undergrad - only accepted to a barely-selective rural liberal arts school. Got a BA in philosophy. One summer I temped as a receptionist at a small consulting company, and sitting at the front desk saw that they were paying a huge amount of money for IT support that I was computer-savvy enough to provide. I proposed to the Principal to shift from receptionist to IT guy, got to know the consultants, and eventually convinced them to give me a shot at being a consultant. Literally all my peer consultants went to Ivy League schools. 20 years later, I am an executive director at a consulting and technology firm and have an MBA from Wharton. So, no, your undergrad college is not your destiny.
31
Twitter size summary of this excellent article:
Things turn out the best for those who make the best out of
how things turn out !!!
Things turn out the best for those who make the best out of
how things turn out !!!
9
Getting into an elite college was a necessity for me. Even with scholarships, going to an in-state university would have left me more than $20k in debt. The sticker price on my fancy liberal arts college was shocking, but the financial aid was much more generous. I graduated with a fraction of the loans I would have needed for State U.
11
As a 2000 college grad with only $4,000 left in student loan debt, I can not underscore enough the quality of a SUNY education proportional to the cost. For example, Al Roker graduated from a SUNY school and he seemed to turn out ok - :)
4
As the parent of a high school freshman, thanks for talking me down from the college admissions ledge that others keep pushing me out on.
9
Thank you again for what you have said here and in previous article. The college admissions process is madness. The self-worth of a 17-year old cannot be so tied to the elite acceptance. My oldest started at a small liberal arts school last fall and is thriving socially and academically. I am extremely proud of him on all counts. The middle child, a HS junior, has begun the exploration process, and we are trying to guide her also to select a school where she will be happy, enjoy her studies, and grow. Unfortunately, the pressure she feels from her peers is getting to her: inability to sleep, weight loss, and a drop in grades. I am doing my best to steer her on a better path, and I hope she can see how well others are doing - those who did not follow the 'Ivy Stress Road'.
4
What a silly article. Of all college applicants, how many actually apply to Harvard, Yale, etc. Unless of course Mr. Bruni has an exceptionally broad definition of elite, the answer is relatively few. His column represents the most infantile kind of populist rhetoric, decrying Ivy League schools and touting state universities. Hey, we're just as good an they are! It's a riff on Sarah Palin's "real America" nonsense. He wastes our time with trite personal empowerment narratives instead of talking about the actual educational problems in the country -- race, class and gender inequalities, the poor funding of urban schools, the attempts at privatizing public schools, affordability, etc. I guess writing uncontroversial self-help columns is one way to earn a living.
6
I'm afraid someone missed the points of the article. Perhaps a re-read over a nice glass of scotch this weekend is in order. I'm not saying it is world class literature but simply that you missed the points. Cheers.
8
Actually a lot of applicants apply to Ivy's. Ivy's also do legacy admission (Stanford does too) + spots are allocated for athletes so the actual number of spots for "normals" is quite limited and the acceptance rate is around 3% after controlling for legacy and athletes. In fact, these schools brag that if they scrap all admitted students and will take the next cohort of applicants they are not going to loose anything in terms of quality.
I think you've got to be kidding's point is right on target; this article is soft feel good stuff that doesn't provide much help for anything. Even those poor people rejected from the Ivies will do just fine without Bruni's permission to feel good about themselves. After all more people are rejected from these schools than accepted, with no significant fallout as a result - i.e. everybody already knows this.
May the day you didn't get into Harvard be the worst day of your life.
50
UVa is mentioned several times in this wonderful article; so, I tell you that I am an alumnus. I created seven very small businesses; some failed, some were successful. I dropped out of UVa graduate business school to attend the best of all schools: THE UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS. Recently in Charlottesville, I stopped by one of my old businesses, a student bar/restaurant across the street from the school. The young manager, a last year mechanical engineering graduateI, said to me: "I know, I'm wasting my degree and life doing this." To which I asked: "Are you happy?" He responded that he is very happy, having a ball managing the place. I told him he was not at all wasting his life or education. At 72 I tell you college bound kids that happiness will be the true mark of your success.
10
Your two anecdotes come from students who had gone to elite high schools. And despite not getting into elite colleges, those two students still did well. When it comes to drawing a moral conclusion from taking your own path based on Peter's or Jenna's story, you forget a couple of important factors: their socioeconomic status or education of their parents. Do you really think that these students could have gotten to BCG or Teach for America without their privilege? If we look at the students closely, we'll probably find those that these success stories only apply to the well off. How about the poor kids who didn't get into elite colleges? How often do they actually succeed, compared to the privileged kid who didn't get into an elite college? "It's ok" applies only to the privileged.
42
Great point to a great article. It should also be noted that these special, successful cases had parents who are more likely to be educated with more than a high school degree, and of course, had parents with more connections, which contributed to their kid's success more than their hard work. Referring to David Brook's column, "The Cost of Relativism," "High-school-educated parents dine with their children less than college-educated parents, read to them less, talk to them less, take them to church less, encourage them less and spend less time engaging in developmental activity." Which is to say, these prep school kids or elite public high school kids probably learned the social graces, the clubbability, the manners, and the charm as they grew up that ultimately led to their accomplishments. Perhaps, it never really matters where you go to school at all as long as you have these broader social presentation of self. But that's not a true meritocracy is it?
1
Great article, but looking at CEO's alma matter is not informative enough (i.e. check Kahan and Rock's paper "Embattled CEOs").
The top 15 best paid hedge fund managers went to Harvard (3), Columbia (2), Wharton (3), Princeton, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Yale, Stanford, London School of Economics, and University of Virginia - most Ivey league schools. The top 15 hedge fund manager made more than $20 billions in 2013 (Forbes), whereas corporate CEOs of S&P made $11 million/yr on average.
The top 15 best paid hedge fund managers went to Harvard (3), Columbia (2), Wharton (3), Princeton, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Yale, Stanford, London School of Economics, and University of Virginia - most Ivey league schools. The top 15 hedge fund manager made more than $20 billions in 2013 (Forbes), whereas corporate CEOs of S&P made $11 million/yr on average.
3
Weren't the graduates of those same schools steering the ship when it crashed into the financial iceberg in 2008?
But I digress. Those hedge fund managers would likely still be on their perches had they gone elsewhere. The question being asked here is does a particular college budge the outcome needle.
But I digress. Those hedge fund managers would likely still be on their perches had they gone elsewhere. The question being asked here is does a particular college budge the outcome needle.
6
Didn't Mr. Bruni go to Harvard?
Of course this is sound advice, especially now when students at *elite schools* are chosen more for their athletic abilities than for their mental ones.
The problem lies with the schools themselves and their endless self promotion that they chose only the *best and the brightest* . And then, there is the awful ratings by US News and World Report.
No surprise that *elite schools* produce so few corporate leaders, but what are the statistics for government? Isn't that and *consulting* the work of choice for elite graduates today?
Of course this is sound advice, especially now when students at *elite schools* are chosen more for their athletic abilities than for their mental ones.
The problem lies with the schools themselves and their endless self promotion that they chose only the *best and the brightest* . And then, there is the awful ratings by US News and World Report.
No surprise that *elite schools* produce so few corporate leaders, but what are the statistics for government? Isn't that and *consulting* the work of choice for elite graduates today?
1
He went somewhere better than Harvard, UNC-Chapel Hill.
1
Acc. to Wikipedia, he was Phi Beta Kappa at the University of North Carolina, then went to grad school at Columbia. He's won a plethora of awards and prizes, richly deserved. But even had he attended Harvard as an undergrad, how would that undermine his argument here?
I could not disagree more with the columnist. Mr Bruni's premise and ill-advice is that your college pick does not matter. I doubt if Matt was admitted to Yale, Princeton or Brown in addition to Lehigh, he would choose to go to Lehigh. And I mean no offense to Lehigh University, which is probably a fine institution. Ivy league schools and elite colleges probably do not teach and provide any more instruction than other schools but they have a reputation that gives their students social credibility which translates into success more often than not. I believe that every student can overcome the hardship of going to a second tier school but they will have to prove themselves to climb the ladder of success and are at the bottom floor when they apply for their first job. Students from elite and ivy league schools are most often just one one floor away from the top.
84
Except that if you don't climb the ladder, you never learn how to keep your balance and then you fall...
I agree with you on the advantages of the top tier schools despite my other posted comment completely agreeing with Mr. Bruni. In truth, Mr. Bruni said nothing to contradict your accurate claim that it is virtually always more advantageous, for the reasons you cite, among others such as the usually more dynamic and accomplished set of peers you'll be among, more glamour environment, usually easier grading systems and everything else to make the Ivies a perfect expression of our "winner take all culture." Mr. Bruni was suggesting the other aspect of this: yes there are challenges in your situation, but aspire to have your life defined more by your talent, energy and dedication than by the school you attend, knowing that the educational possibilities and experiences are flowing more democratically every year.
VB, I'll say it. The tragedy is that there are so many people who seek the "social credibility" you covet and that you and others condescend to those who 'have to prove themselves". Personally, I prefer a doctor who had to 'prove themselves" and I and many professionals today aren't buying the 'halo" effect of the Ivies. Sadly, many minorities are even sold short twice by attending an Ivy. They don't enjoy the experience, they don't flourish and then they are assumed to hold an affirmative action degree. When I was hiring for Chase bank, formerly First National Bank of Chicago, we made a point to weed out individuals who expected their degree to provide an express elevator to the 'top". Our group had far too much work and needed team players--not unbearable entitled elites. Our hiring team made one exception for the college roommate of the son of the bank's president--who btw--with stood our version of 'credibility testing".... he was a substantive person with a great work ethic--who did not expect doors to open without putting forth great effort.
We can only wonder how the writer of this opinion-piece treats affirmative action in his new book, “Where You Go Is Not Who You’ll Be: An Antidote to the College Admissions Mania.”
Wouldn't affirmative-action benefiaries at H-P-Ys be better off if surrounded by students with whom they're not at a relatively pronounced "disadvantage" academically?
Wouldn't affirmative-action benefiaries at H-P-Ys be better off if surrounded by students with whom they're not at a relatively pronounced "disadvantage" academically?
2
Someone has to major in those Regional/Ethnic/Gender/Religious studies. Those "professors" need to eat too.
This article is spot on. The top high schools (public and private) are fiercely competitive, more so than the top universities (my son has found UChicago to be more relaxed than his high school days); most kids from those schools do not get into their top choice; and most do well where they land, and are delighted with how things turn out.
It's tough getting whacked upside the head at age 14 and taught that you are ordinary, but there are advantages to that approach as well.
It's tough getting whacked upside the head at age 14 and taught that you are ordinary, but there are advantages to that approach as well.
2
Forty five plus years ago I needed to go to college a) to get a 2S deferment so I wouldn't get drafted and b) because I has no interest in working at the two big industrial plants in my hometown where most of my classmates planned to work.
Since I was the first in my family to go to college, I didn't have a parent to provide any guidance on the right way to look at schools nor did the "guidance counselors" at school give me much help. I applied to three schools - a large well-regarded private school in a nearby city, where the only chance of attending rested on getting an ROTC scholarship; a large private school in my hometown, which I could afford only if I lived at home; and finally, a nearby 4 year state school which was well regarded locally, inexpensive but had no pizzazz (ivy covered campus or big-time football team).
As luck would have it, I didn't get the ROTC scholarship (bad eyesight) and didn't want to live at home, so the private schools were out. I went to the state school, got good grades, met a lot of great people (some of whom I am still in touch with on a regular basis) and got started on the road to a satisfying life and career. Did the school matter - absolutely. No cachet but a solid education, good life experiences and long-term friends. And hardly any debt.
Since I was the first in my family to go to college, I didn't have a parent to provide any guidance on the right way to look at schools nor did the "guidance counselors" at school give me much help. I applied to three schools - a large well-regarded private school in a nearby city, where the only chance of attending rested on getting an ROTC scholarship; a large private school in my hometown, which I could afford only if I lived at home; and finally, a nearby 4 year state school which was well regarded locally, inexpensive but had no pizzazz (ivy covered campus or big-time football team).
As luck would have it, I didn't get the ROTC scholarship (bad eyesight) and didn't want to live at home, so the private schools were out. I went to the state school, got good grades, met a lot of great people (some of whom I am still in touch with on a regular basis) and got started on the road to a satisfying life and career. Did the school matter - absolutely. No cachet but a solid education, good life experiences and long-term friends. And hardly any debt.
4
Thank you Frank! EVERY anxious senior high school student needs to read this article.
I was a bright high school senior with loads of extra-curricular's (student body president) and great grades (3rd in my graduating class). However, I came from a small Catholic school and my SAT scores, while good, were not great. I applied to a bunch of elite schools and my state university, Penn State. Unfortunately, I was wait-listed at all of my top choices or received no financial aid. Tuition at these elite schools was 40k per year even back in 2005. I unhappily left for Penn State that fall.
Fast forward ten years later, and I can say that was the best possible outcome. Because I wasn't saddled with debt from undergrad, I was able to spend a semester abroad in Africa which peaked an interest in public health. After Penn State, I matriculated into the top graduate program in epidemiology where I am now faculty and spent two years working in Eastern Africa on cutting edge AIDS research - and yes, all alongside Yale, Harvard, and Princeton grads!.
Oh, and did I mention that I also managed to make the best friends a gal could wish for while at PSU?
Don't worry 2015 applicants! Many roads lead to the same (and sometimes way cooler) place.
I was a bright high school senior with loads of extra-curricular's (student body president) and great grades (3rd in my graduating class). However, I came from a small Catholic school and my SAT scores, while good, were not great. I applied to a bunch of elite schools and my state university, Penn State. Unfortunately, I was wait-listed at all of my top choices or received no financial aid. Tuition at these elite schools was 40k per year even back in 2005. I unhappily left for Penn State that fall.
Fast forward ten years later, and I can say that was the best possible outcome. Because I wasn't saddled with debt from undergrad, I was able to spend a semester abroad in Africa which peaked an interest in public health. After Penn State, I matriculated into the top graduate program in epidemiology where I am now faculty and spent two years working in Eastern Africa on cutting edge AIDS research - and yes, all alongside Yale, Harvard, and Princeton grads!.
Oh, and did I mention that I also managed to make the best friends a gal could wish for while at PSU?
Don't worry 2015 applicants! Many roads lead to the same (and sometimes way cooler) place.
3
My kid's at Yale and is having a phenomenal experience. It's everything she expected it to be. Just thought I'd mention this given everyone's need to denigrate the "elites."
103
You missed the point of the article & most of the replies. It & they did not "denigrate the elites." They praised finding a college & developing a character that let them thrive there.
20
I think you missed the point of the article.
8
Why be ungrateful when your child is lucky enough to have something that so few can have? The "elites" wouldn't be "denigrated" if a high status education was available to many more.
3
I have been an alumni interviewer for Harvard for over 40 years. My experience has been that admission to a specific university is a life changing event, certainly, but once the student chooses, that school replaces all the desperate wish schools in an instant. Places like Harvard are there for the taking throughout one's career, and graduate school degrees are the ones seriously affecting a professional life. Ivies don't travel well, and if a student wants to explore eventual opportunities west of the Appalachians, there are far better choices all around. The concept of elite is being challenged daily, and to muster elites beneath a "veritas" shield is, to me, absurd.
5
I am ever so deeply moved by the love and wisdom that Craig and Diana Levin have given to their son, Matt. They are wonderful role models for any parent. Matt's received something of far greater value than any Ivy league degree could provide.
8
Yes agreed what a wonderful family! Looking at high school friends of mine who graduated from all tiers of Institutions from state universities to Ivy league schools, the best predictor of their post-college paths has been the occupations, support and advice of their parents.
I participated in career day at my high school alma mater a few days ago. A few students may go to academically selective colleges but most won't. My message to the students was that if you work hard and do well, it will be noticed and rewarded. Success and happiness is not limited to those who attend selective colleges and work on Wall Street.
1
Disappointing that the focus of this article is upon how one can end up at the same place with a degree from Indiana as a degree from Yale, and that some parents will love you either way. Really?
Next time focus upon students who have other (better) plans than business consulting. Yeesh.
Next time focus upon students who have other (better) plans than business consulting. Yeesh.
5
Mr. Bruni hits the nail on the head once again. I tutor ACT/SAT students, most of whom are targeting the most competitive schools. I keep trying to convey to them and their parents, that it's more about what you do in college and beyond than where you go to college. I've met plenty of people who attended the "elite" colleges or universities and who accomplished very little with their lives and who aren't particularly happy. And I have met people who attended their state schools, or even community colleges, and have done remarkable things. College is not an end point; it's a beginning.
5
This Article should be an annual event. With maybe a few pointed lessons:
1. Parents, it's not about you and your status. Status isn't all it's cracked up to be; 2. College learning is about what you bring to it....how engaged you are (not about where you attend); 3. Choose the place you want to live your college life; 4. Challenges don't end with admission......funny how they stay the same and are different.....Keep your head on straight and you'll find your way; 5. Parents.....being there is half the job.....let them experiment.....but be there......
1. Parents, it's not about you and your status. Status isn't all it's cracked up to be; 2. College learning is about what you bring to it....how engaged you are (not about where you attend); 3. Choose the place you want to live your college life; 4. Challenges don't end with admission......funny how they stay the same and are different.....Keep your head on straight and you'll find your way; 5. Parents.....being there is half the job.....let them experiment.....but be there......
2
Rarely more truth on 1 page. Kudos, FB. To some essays I could say: what meticulous grasp of the facts/issues, or as to others: what a profound sense of fairness or political sensitivity/subtlety. This has it all, but I can't think of another that pure purely "has its heart in the right place."
Today's college entrants are the cusp of a higher education revolution which originated as technology began to democratize knowledge access, possession & transmission of which are education's essence -despite bromides about discipline, character, accountable/confirmed "achievement." Knowledge is power, freedom, self-determination; the seed of all creativity. Now, & increasingly, anybody can get it. At any community college you can plug in & learn all you can grasp. Don't get discouraged/distracted by ivy-less surroundings.
As to "merit" & the admissions verdict: it's mostly a myth. For every real talent at a prestige U., there are 2 or 3 "Heisenberg robots" who've mechanically gamed the process from day 1, like "Zelig" morphing into what the testing process seemed to reward, w/out developing an intellect. This passes for "merit" b/c it's the best an industrialized secularized Calvinism (& smattering of misplaced Darwin) & "human capital" nonsense could come up with. See: "Twilight of the Elites: America after Meritocracy."
Our universities will soon be relics like monasteries: formerly monopolized knowledge & its transmission, now museums. Don't be defined by your university.
Today's college entrants are the cusp of a higher education revolution which originated as technology began to democratize knowledge access, possession & transmission of which are education's essence -despite bromides about discipline, character, accountable/confirmed "achievement." Knowledge is power, freedom, self-determination; the seed of all creativity. Now, & increasingly, anybody can get it. At any community college you can plug in & learn all you can grasp. Don't get discouraged/distracted by ivy-less surroundings.
As to "merit" & the admissions verdict: it's mostly a myth. For every real talent at a prestige U., there are 2 or 3 "Heisenberg robots" who've mechanically gamed the process from day 1, like "Zelig" morphing into what the testing process seemed to reward, w/out developing an intellect. This passes for "merit" b/c it's the best an industrialized secularized Calvinism (& smattering of misplaced Darwin) & "human capital" nonsense could come up with. See: "Twilight of the Elites: America after Meritocracy."
Our universities will soon be relics like monasteries: formerly monopolized knowledge & its transmission, now museums. Don't be defined by your university.
2
This is an excellent column, but be sure not to misread it. The column does NOT say that it doesn't matter where a person goes to college. Indeed, it should be read as the opposite. It matters a great deal to find the kind of school where a student will thrive. For some, that will be the competitive, highly-ranked schools. But for many, including many high academic achievers, a different sort of schools is much better. I would just want to add that statistically, of course you're going to see a lot of successful people come from the largest, mostly public universities, because they produce by FAR the largest number of graduates. But proportionately speaking, students from small liberal arts colleges, where teaching and mentoring is emphasized (and possible!) and opportunities for leadership are plentiful, outperform their peers in leadership and other measures of "success." Plus, most professors at research universities send their kids to small colleges. Just saying.
138
Teaching and mentoring is available at large public universities as well, sometimes more available than at the elites, whose faculty are often "otherwise engaged." The student only need be engaged, take advantage of, or make their own opportunities. My older child was astonished to find she had no competition for office hours appointments with her profs at her big and wonderful public university and developed solid relationships with many faculty members.
Not true about most faculty at research universities sending their kids to small colleges. However, faculty are more likely to be aware of the "fit" issue raised by many in the discussion.
LOL, thanks, someone who understands statistics. :-)
Great article Mr. Bruni...What highly qualified students have to realize is that at these "elite" schools, the numbers accepted vs the qualified applicants is tiny per definition. Also,.in addition to grades and test scores, There are considerations of gender, ethnicity, geography, legacies, sports teams that need filling. All of which may place applicants in a lottery of sorts for the few remaining positions. It's not that they are not wanted, it's that they simply lost the coin toss.
1
Thank you so much for this. It can't be said enough, though I fear it doesn't reach a lot of the people who most need to hear it. Still, the focus here is on those who don't QUITE make the the Ivies or the top schools in their chosen field. They go on to state schools or "lesser" institutions which are often actually just as good if not better at educating undergraduates. Yes, of course these people are often very successful in life in spite of - or perhaps because of - this early disappointment. But let's remember there is another group, below this "second-tier" group in terms of academic prowess, at least as it is still conventionally conceived today - there is an entire group of kids who are absolutely crushed, psychologically, by what they perceive as their complete inability to measure up to these standards of success, yet parents and teacher push them mercilessly. I'm talking about the kids in the elite prep schools who just REALLY shouldn't be there, who don't have the academic chops, so WHY are they being tortured this way? Because their parents want to say their adult child is a Harvard doctor, etc. I'm speaking myself as a graduate with high honors from an elite school, who learned the hard way over the years since graduation that there are many, many many people who don't have my education - or don't have any education at all - who are much smarter and more competent than me, academically and in many other ways. (Matt's parents get A+ in parenting.)
2
I admire the motivation behind this article (or at least its headline), which is why I stopped to read it in the first place. But I can't see how the examples support Mr. Bruni's point. I am a professor at Pomona College, one of the sister colleges of Claremont McKenna and Scripps, and because we share our course schedules I teach many students from each school. In my experience, Scripps is every bit as elite as CMC. Similarly, among flagship state universities Indiana University is elite; if one felt like it one could argue about the pecking order between Indiana, Michigan, and Illinois, and many would place Michigan on top, but there are several ways in which Indiana is the most "elite" of those three. And to point to Peter's later attendance at Harvard Business School is to say that "elite" schools do matter. What this article really says is that there are a great many very fine colleges and universities, and that it's insane for students to set their sights on just one or two of them. Or to insist on going to well-known schools, I might add; education, after all, involves learning about what we don't know well.
13
I want to point out that Mr. Bruni's profession of journalism is as much responsible for this problem of hyper competitiveness for elite schools as other causes.
Where do the elite media sources almost always go for academia comments?
Which schools do the elite media invariably highlight new studies from?
MIT. Stanford, Harvard. Princeton. Yale. etc.
I told my kids that these schools will likely only give you a marginally better education than others that are one tier below, but others believe they give you a much better education, and that is why you might want to go there.
The elite media certainly believes it by their actions.
Where do the elite media sources almost always go for academia comments?
Which schools do the elite media invariably highlight new studies from?
MIT. Stanford, Harvard. Princeton. Yale. etc.
I told my kids that these schools will likely only give you a marginally better education than others that are one tier below, but others believe they give you a much better education, and that is why you might want to go there.
The elite media certainly believes it by their actions.
2
The college of choice is not the end-all be-all, anymore than your high school grades, your first job, etc.
However, the growing inequality in our society is fueling the added pressure. The top 1% or 5% or 10%, know more clearly than anyone the difference that the right school or job make.
In fact, you make the very same point when you point out that BCG almost never hires Indiana grads. Once in a blue moon, a Peter Hart, who "thrived", who not only joined a business fraternity, but took a leadership position in one and who started his own business can go from a school like Indiana to BCG.
How many of the BCG hires from the Ivies needed to start their own businesses to get hired at BCG or the investment banks, etc.?
However, the growing inequality in our society is fueling the added pressure. The top 1% or 5% or 10%, know more clearly than anyone the difference that the right school or job make.
In fact, you make the very same point when you point out that BCG almost never hires Indiana grads. Once in a blue moon, a Peter Hart, who "thrived", who not only joined a business fraternity, but took a leadership position in one and who started his own business can go from a school like Indiana to BCG.
How many of the BCG hires from the Ivies needed to start their own businesses to get hired at BCG or the investment banks, etc.?
8
You're assuming a career with BCG is a desirable goal. You have my sympathy.
You may want to inform yourself about the high rankings and stellar reputation of Indiana's Kelley School of Business. As a Bay Area person, know that Cisco System's CEO John Chambers earned his MBA at Kelley.
You may want to inform yourself about the high rankings and stellar reputation of Indiana's Kelley School of Business. As a Bay Area person, know that Cisco System's CEO John Chambers earned his MBA at Kelley.
6
Super well said.
1) I'm not assuming it; Bruni is stating it is a desirable goal.
2) IU's graduate business school is often ranked in the top 20, but the point is that for many of the highest paying and most sought after jobs, being in the 2nd ten or even outside the top 3-5 makes it difficult if not impossible to get even an interview.
I work in private equity (cue the booing) - I'm sure you will denigrate it but it is a highly desired field by MBA's and we will only interview MBA students at Harvard and Stanford.
2) IU's graduate business school is often ranked in the top 20, but the point is that for many of the highest paying and most sought after jobs, being in the 2nd ten or even outside the top 3-5 makes it difficult if not impossible to get even an interview.
I work in private equity (cue the booing) - I'm sure you will denigrate it but it is a highly desired field by MBA's and we will only interview MBA students at Harvard and Stanford.
1
Most of the people that I met during my post-doc at Caltech fell into one of two categories: those who were chronically worried that somebody might realize they didn't really belong there, and those who genuinely believed they that they did belong there. Health balanced personalities were hard to find.
2
My son was one of the students from an elite high school with excellent SATs, Merit finalist, who didn't get into the Ivies. He ended up at Reed College and got a much better education than I did at my exclusive seven sisters college, and probably than his peers did at the Ivies. He was Phi Beta Kappa and had his choice of graduate schools in more than one subject.
2
I think most people would consider Reed as falling pretty clearly into the "elite" category.
2
More than a few of my contemporaries at Reed had been offered admission to one or more Ivies and chose Reed instead; many others who in all likelihood would have been accepted hadn't even applied to Ivies. And this was when admission to Reed was much less competitive than it is now. One kid's parents were so incensed that she chose Reed over Harvard (her father's alma mater) that they refused to support her financially or otherwise. Reed covered her tuition, room and board, and she did work study and summer jobs to cover her other expenses. When she chose Yale over Harvard for grad school it wasn't to stick it to dad, but it had to feel good.
Next step? Start mentioning the other colleges in news stories about high achieving individuals. At present we are certain to be told that so-and-so graduated from Harvard, Yale or Princeton, but one does not often see the "lesser" schools identified.
7
Thank you, Frank. I got all my degrees (BS, MS, PhD) at public universities and I am now faculty at one. We give students a good education, too, but we are usually ignored by NYT articles. Thank you for showing that we produce successful graduates, just like the private elites do.
6
Right on. The story of my life ins in this column.
In 1960 I applied to Colgate (mistakenly thinking it was an Ivy school) and was wait-listed. I went to Colby, where
I'd had a terrific visit and was made to feel wanted. At 16 I had culture shock (coming from Brooklyn), at 18 I was editor- in-chief of the college newspaper, at 19 a summer intern in DC (for Muskie). I had friendships with great peers, including Doris Kearns (Goodwin) who loaned me her lecture notes in Economics (enabling me to pass the course).
I later became a tenured professor at Barnard (with affiliation at Columbia as well).
The kicker: Colgate offered me a named chair sometime in the late 1980s. I turned it down (graciously).
My parents expressed the same sentiments that the Levins expressed toward their son, for which I was eternally grateful.
In 1960 I applied to Colgate (mistakenly thinking it was an Ivy school) and was wait-listed. I went to Colby, where
I'd had a terrific visit and was made to feel wanted. At 16 I had culture shock (coming from Brooklyn), at 18 I was editor- in-chief of the college newspaper, at 19 a summer intern in DC (for Muskie). I had friendships with great peers, including Doris Kearns (Goodwin) who loaned me her lecture notes in Economics (enabling me to pass the course).
I later became a tenured professor at Barnard (with affiliation at Columbia as well).
The kicker: Colgate offered me a named chair sometime in the late 1980s. I turned it down (graciously).
My parents expressed the same sentiments that the Levins expressed toward their son, for which I was eternally grateful.
1
I find it ironic that NYT has published this article when, if memory serves me correctly, they have profiled 7 or 8 kids in the college application process each year. Most of the kids were highly accomplished and applying to elite schools, if not Ivy's. It's this kind of focus that drives competition. Each applicant has to speak five languages or has to have started an orphanage in Syria or the like. Why not profile some very average students who are predominantly applying to state institutions or small, independent liberal arts colleges, and follow up on how they selected their "perfect" school? Parents, also stay off College Confidential. It will drive you insane.
13
"speak five languages or has to have started an orphanage in Syria"
speak five languages AND started an orphanage in Syria.
Fixed that for you.
speak five languages AND started an orphanage in Syria.
Fixed that for you.
2
I wish Bruni's two "success stories" of Peter & Jenna hadn't had Bruni effectively ratifying our superficial society's assumptions that (1) success means financial success in the corporate world, and (2) success still means "Ivy League," just at the graduate level ultimately rather than undergraduate immediately.
As to Peter, Bruni says, "Upon graduation, he took a plum job in the Chicago office of the Boston Consulting Group [a firm that advises corporations on how to manage their employees better], where he recognized one of the other new hires: the friend from New Trier who’d gone to Yale. Traveling a more gilded path, she’d arrived at the same destination. He later decided to get a master’s degree in business administration, and that’s where he is now, in graduate school — at Harvard."
As to Jenna, he says, “Later she landed a grant to develop a new charter school for low-income families in Phoenix, where she now lives. It opened last August, with Jenna and a colleague at the helm.” Since when is helming a corporation-run charter school, dubious darling of US conservatives, an occasion for handing out life’s laurel wreaths?
Also, he says Peter "finagled a way, off campus, to interview with several of the top-drawer consulting firms that trawled for recruits at the Ivies but often bypassed schools like Indiana." How did he "finagle" that? Through his and his family's network of upper 5% to 1% friends and acquaintances?
How about "success" as, say, a published poet?
As to Peter, Bruni says, "Upon graduation, he took a plum job in the Chicago office of the Boston Consulting Group [a firm that advises corporations on how to manage their employees better], where he recognized one of the other new hires: the friend from New Trier who’d gone to Yale. Traveling a more gilded path, she’d arrived at the same destination. He later decided to get a master’s degree in business administration, and that’s where he is now, in graduate school — at Harvard."
As to Jenna, he says, “Later she landed a grant to develop a new charter school for low-income families in Phoenix, where she now lives. It opened last August, with Jenna and a colleague at the helm.” Since when is helming a corporation-run charter school, dubious darling of US conservatives, an occasion for handing out life’s laurel wreaths?
Also, he says Peter "finagled a way, off campus, to interview with several of the top-drawer consulting firms that trawled for recruits at the Ivies but often bypassed schools like Indiana." How did he "finagle" that? Through his and his family's network of upper 5% to 1% friends and acquaintances?
How about "success" as, say, a published poet?
32
I've been on the receiving end of both good and bad news from college admissions offices; I can only remember a few blithe moments upon receiving acceptance letters, but the day I got my rejection from the only law school I applied to—the University of Chicago—is on par with the worst breakup I ever had, in terms of how long I spent agonizing over what went wrong.
How dearly I wish I knew more college-bound young people to pass this along to (and that's saying something; I'm a teacher!). Spread this one far and near, folks. What a perfect pearl of an essay.
How dearly I wish I knew more college-bound young people to pass this along to (and that's saying something; I'm a teacher!). Spread this one far and near, folks. What a perfect pearl of an essay.
1
Brilliant letter at the end. My husband and I both feel the same way about our kids (as undoubtedly do 99+% of other parents!) and have been very proud of and grateful for their maturity and progress through life (now at 26 and 21). And most of all, I am grateful for having survived and moved beyond the admissions madness.
1
Thanks for this most profound insight into what is really important as these young adults move into the phase of their lives that will determine their future path. I have just seen the frenzy and anxiousness that the senior students at my son's high school have experienced trying to live up to expectations that don't necessarily address who they are as individuals and the importance of finding what will make them productive citizens and result in happiness in their life's work. I plan to send this article to my son.
Is the under graduate degree that you attain more important than the institution that granted you that degree?
Will a STEM degree from a public university get you a higher starting salary than a History degree from an Ivy League school?
Usually!
Will a STEM degree from a public university get you a higher starting salary than a History degree from an Ivy League school?
Usually!
2
So glad to read this article that I can relate to. I took the non-elite route for my kids strictly for money reasons. My son was not allowed to apply to any of the "elites" and instead got a full-ride to a top 50 liberal arts college, saving us over $200,000 over four years of undergrad. He will go to grad school next year, once he chooses between his recent acceptances to both Harvard and Yale, and we will be able to use the undergrad savings to fully fund his grad school allowing him to graduate with zero debt. My daughter graduates this spring from a no-name but quality liberal arts school in Rochester NY, that after her merit scholarship has cost us less than it would have been to send her to even our most mediocre public state university, and she has been accepted to Columbia for grad school next year. Again, we will use the undergrad savings to fully fund her grad school. Could not have done this if either of them had attended an elite undergrad school. If your kids plan to go to grad school, choose an inexpensive but good quality undergrad school, tell them to work very hard, and they will be able to attend a top school for their masters and avoid a mountain of debt in student loans.
140
J makes a very good point. Many liberal arts schools that are less publicized (i.e., not "brand-name"), but still quite good, can afford to subsidize students who are top candidates. If your child would be best developed in a close-knit, student-focused school, it can be done. Better to try that than to send that child to a large state university with a lower "sticker price" where the best students are as good as any anywhere, but the bottom is a lot lower and the chance of getting lost in the crowd is substantial. Mass education has its drawbacks.
1
I commend you and your children on their excellent academic performance. But with all due respect, their experience is simply not indicative. The article below reflects a study done several years ago by the Wall Street Journal. They looked at the percentage of students that get accepted to the nation's top business, medical and law schools and sort this by undergraduate college. Unsurprisingly, it's sharply skewed with 21% of all elite grad students coming from Harvard, another 17% from Yale, etc. You don't get to a State school until number 30 on the list, University of Michigan which comprises 2.7% of top grad school students.
Critics of this data will say that it is over 10 years old and that there are professions other than wall street, medicine and law. All of that is true. First, I doubt that the data has changed much over 10 years, but grad schools make it harder to compile this data perhaps fearful of appearing to disparate schools which send fewer students to these grad schools. My point is neither to praise nor criticize this data, but rather to make sure that families and students have access to it so that they can make informed decisions.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB106453459428307800
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/331975-undergraduate-scho...
Critics of this data will say that it is over 10 years old and that there are professions other than wall street, medicine and law. All of that is true. First, I doubt that the data has changed much over 10 years, but grad schools make it harder to compile this data perhaps fearful of appearing to disparate schools which send fewer students to these grad schools. My point is neither to praise nor criticize this data, but rather to make sure that families and students have access to it so that they can make informed decisions.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB106453459428307800
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/331975-undergraduate-scho...
2
Congrats on the great success your kids had in college. One premise of your post is highly questionable. If you were not very wealthy, the so-called elite have plenty of financial aid resources to tap into. No harm in applying and seeing what they give.
Stories showing exemptions to the rule are nice and encouraging but are just that, exceptions. Believe me Boston Consulting Group has over the years hired 100 times people from Yale than from U-Indiana (or similar)
Doesn't mean that the college application process isn't crazy and very few people will get into an Ivy, but people should set their sights high. To try and fail is so much better than never to have tried at all.
Doesn't mean that the college application process isn't crazy and very few people will get into an Ivy, but people should set their sights high. To try and fail is so much better than never to have tried at all.
4
Try to remember that even if you can do lots of cool things from decent (rather than elite) universities, many of these students spent the last 4 years slaving at AP courses and perhaps not particularly fun extracurriculars to impress elite admissions office officials. To get rejected and then go to a school like Indiana University, where these gunning students could have gained admission basically from their SAT scores alone, it seems like a lot of wasted time and effort. It's natural and legitimate to feel disappointment at rejection from something you tried so hard to get and such feelings of disappointment should not be denied these students.
7
My deceased Father was born dirt poor on a farm but with a 162 IQ. He went to a 12 grade, one room, school house in Appalachia, truthfully on horseback, then for two years to a tiny regional college. He was plucked out without a degree to attend UVa med school and became one of the most successful surgeons in the United States. He was nominated for president of the AMA but withdrew because he couldn't stand the politics. My point in telling you parents and college bound children is that he used to frequently say: "You can get a good education anywhere if you apply yourself." At 72 now, having graduated UVa and having educated three and sending a forth and last off this September probably to a small, no-name school, I tell you that I frequently think of the wisdom and truth of my Father's words. Our children will be "successful" in life if they are happy adults, and I don't see a prestige school, or even a college education, as the determinant of that. Most of the "successful" people I know, and I know a lot of those people, didn't even finish college or go at all.
9
As someone who has attended and taught in a number of colleges and universities, including ivies and state schools, I can say in no uncertain terms that the best education is not necessarily, or even likely, to be had from the places with big reps. Go to a fancy university and you're lucky if you ever meet your professors (you'll be taught by graduate assistants, many of whom are much better teachers than the fancy prof, who's only interested in research). You'll get the most attention and education at a small liberal arts college. And as the article says, you will get by far the best deal at a state school.
6
While I appreciate this piece is directed to students (and their parents) making themselves sick over whether or not they gain admission to the Ivy League, Bruni still concerns himself with a certain slice of the American population, those who see the final measure of success as being white collar professionals at leading consulting or finance firms (ideally with an Ivy League graduate degree added for good measure.)
I'd like to see a letter from parents like Craig and Diana extolling their child's decision to attend trade school and become an electrician, if indeed that is what would make him happy.
I'd like to see a letter from parents like Craig and Diana extolling their child's decision to attend trade school and become an electrician, if indeed that is what would make him happy.
3
He forgot to mention the elite schools carry an unjustifiably high price premium.
3
For all of those who aren't getting into a high prestige, big name school, some important points:
1. Harvard cannot give you talent. If you have talent and combine it with your native intelligence, you are leaps ahead of 95% of your generation.
2. Princeton cannot teach you everything you need to know. Education happens every day for the alert, the aware and the interested. It vanishes in a wispy vapor for those not paying attention.
3. Yale is unlikely to give you important, blinding insight into your times. If the professors had that insight, they would leave and go make a billion dollars. They wouldn't share it with you.
4. Under grad is not about inquiry. Sorry. This you have to do for yourself, on your own time. College is about mastering chunks of material and proving your momentary mastery of it. (see: "Lost in the Meritocracy by Walter Kirn, Princeton)
5. Consider taking a year off between high school. You and your mind need to grow and sitting in classrooms is not the only way to do it; in fact, it might be one of the lesser ways, even though everyone thinks it is essential. Learning how to learn is more important that specific information.
6. The wealthy now sneak through the side door by getting admitted after the first or second year. You can also go to summer school almost anywhere.
7. Harvard regularly turns down students with perfect SATs and grades (statistics show). Don't feel like a lesser person, prove them wrong.
http://terryreport.com
1. Harvard cannot give you talent. If you have talent and combine it with your native intelligence, you are leaps ahead of 95% of your generation.
2. Princeton cannot teach you everything you need to know. Education happens every day for the alert, the aware and the interested. It vanishes in a wispy vapor for those not paying attention.
3. Yale is unlikely to give you important, blinding insight into your times. If the professors had that insight, they would leave and go make a billion dollars. They wouldn't share it with you.
4. Under grad is not about inquiry. Sorry. This you have to do for yourself, on your own time. College is about mastering chunks of material and proving your momentary mastery of it. (see: "Lost in the Meritocracy by Walter Kirn, Princeton)
5. Consider taking a year off between high school. You and your mind need to grow and sitting in classrooms is not the only way to do it; in fact, it might be one of the lesser ways, even though everyone thinks it is essential. Learning how to learn is more important that specific information.
6. The wealthy now sneak through the side door by getting admitted after the first or second year. You can also go to summer school almost anywhere.
7. Harvard regularly turns down students with perfect SATs and grades (statistics show). Don't feel like a lesser person, prove them wrong.
http://terryreport.com
7
Read "Colleges That Change Lives". It points out many of the issues in this article. The book suggests schools which may be under the radar, but which may be good fits for many prospective students.
And parents...when your son or daughter IS accepted to an Ivy or other elite school, but after thoughtful consideration chooses to attend a "lesser" institution as a better fit, be prepared to welcome that decision and know that they will be fine and perhaps even thrive. When you give them permission to apply, you are tacitly given them permission to attend.
3
One reason people still gun for the "elites" is that the second and third tier private colleges and universities cost just as much. While public universities are less expensive, many of the best are just as competitive for particular majors. There is also concern with the drop in state funding for public colleges and unversities that also leads to larger class sizes and an increasing number of online courses.
2
More reason to attend a public school. Private college education in general is a bad deal.
Why spend more money than what you pay in taxes that support world calls universities such as:
University of Virginia
Ann Arbor
Madison
Chapel Hill
Urbana Champaign
University of Iowa
And many, many more which offer just as good education as any Ivy league school for a lot less money!
Why spend more money than what you pay in taxes that support world calls universities such as:
University of Virginia
Ann Arbor
Madison
Chapel Hill
Urbana Champaign
University of Iowa
And many, many more which offer just as good education as any Ivy league school for a lot less money!
This was a truly great, sane, wise, and helpful column. Having just completed the New York City high school admission process, I now feel well--prepared for the college rat race--which will seem as simple as ordering up Sunday brunch after this. Just three years away! (While I'll simultaneously be sending a second son to the New York high schools.)
2
There are so many kids with perfect SAT scores, and perfect participation records that even with a double legacy they are not getting into the programs they want. There is so much competition including full fee paying foreign nationals that kids today are so stressed. Eventually they all do go somewhere and that is what I tell my kids. And if they go to a state school we can swing graduate school as well. Debt free.
but you really have to wonder about a private school parent paying $40K per year to send their kid to an exclusive prep school and they pull a 600 on math. I wonder how common that is and the point of the prep school.
but you really have to wonder about a private school parent paying $40K per year to send their kid to an exclusive prep school and they pull a 600 on math. I wonder how common that is and the point of the prep school.
2
There are lots of points to independent schools. For us, a faith tradition that aligns with our values, the ability to couple strong academics with socioeconomic diversity, small class size, a focus on whole child education that brings out the best in every child be it acting, sports, academics or service, buy-in from the school community - LGBT issues are being addressed in health class without a bunch of people screaming about it. The point of an independent school education is not to "pull higher than a 600 in math." Then again some of us believe the point the college isn't to end up at a consulting firm. The point is to be a well educated, well rounded person.
5
Having just gone through this process, I think Mr Bruni's comments are all right on the mark. The college admissions process is totally random, but what's worse is the high school environment these kids live in. My son has never it in with the nerdy academic crowd because he has interests outside of just academics (sports, music). For years he has been shunned or denigrated by his academic peers, but when they found out he was accepted early decision to an Ivy League school, all of a sudden they love him! He thinks it's crazy and cynical, and I think it's just sad that these kids are basing a person's worth on something so random. But if he had not gotten in I'm sure his life would have been even worse.
Are you really saying that your son was a "cool jock" and the nerdy academic (popular?) students wouldn't let him into their crowd and bullied him? Boy, I guess high school has certainly changed since I was a student!
7
More re "the system is rigged":
I used to take pride in having gained admission to Princeton. Admittedly, it shored up some pretty shaky self-esteem (altho it also fed my narcissism & silly romanticism of the time -- oh, how I loved soaking up the "This Side of Paradise" atmosphere while sitting under a tree on the Whig/Clio quad in a light, gentle rain & NOT reading my textbook -- which did my development of solid character no good at all).
In high school I'd had a brilliant physics teacher who told me why statistics & the "game-is-rigged-for-the-well-to-do" realities of college admissions meant I shouldn't let my Princeton admission go to my head, but I'm embarrassed to admit that it wasn't until I was in my 30s that I realized how he right he was. I may have had great SAT scores (double 800s) plus solid extra-currix, but with my vulnerable GPA (3.4), it was really my parents' ability to pay full freight w/o asking for a scholarship that sealed the deal.
Bottom line: The game is rigged. Play the game as best you can, if you want the liberal education in itself, or if you think the "brand" will serve you well in pursuing your life goals, but recognize that admissions decisions have everything to do with the institution's economic survival (plus its infinite greed) and nothing to do with the applicant's worthiness as a human being.
I used to take pride in having gained admission to Princeton. Admittedly, it shored up some pretty shaky self-esteem (altho it also fed my narcissism & silly romanticism of the time -- oh, how I loved soaking up the "This Side of Paradise" atmosphere while sitting under a tree on the Whig/Clio quad in a light, gentle rain & NOT reading my textbook -- which did my development of solid character no good at all).
In high school I'd had a brilliant physics teacher who told me why statistics & the "game-is-rigged-for-the-well-to-do" realities of college admissions meant I shouldn't let my Princeton admission go to my head, but I'm embarrassed to admit that it wasn't until I was in my 30s that I realized how he right he was. I may have had great SAT scores (double 800s) plus solid extra-currix, but with my vulnerable GPA (3.4), it was really my parents' ability to pay full freight w/o asking for a scholarship that sealed the deal.
Bottom line: The game is rigged. Play the game as best you can, if you want the liberal education in itself, or if you think the "brand" will serve you well in pursuing your life goals, but recognize that admissions decisions have everything to do with the institution's economic survival (plus its infinite greed) and nothing to do with the applicant's worthiness as a human being.
16
Excellent article. A few things struck me when reading this article. The quality of the high school education is incredibly important regardless of where one goes to college. My son also attended a very rigorous school where last year 10% of the graduating class went to Harvard (out of 140). He always felt very average until he saw the preparation of other students and that was a confidence builder. The other is that success in an academic environment does translate into success in the real world. Resilience, ability to adapt, work with others, deal with criticism... are critically important. I have been a bit taken aback that my chronic B/B+ student is an extremely hard working and high achieving employee.
3
How many of those 14 students bound for Harvard were legacies? My guess is many. The fact is that a big part of the success certain independent/boarding schools have in placing their kids at ivies and their ilk is that their parents are legacies. The legacy "tip" is affirmative action for the already-advantaged. Also, these kinds of secondary schools offer the kinds of niche sports--squash, rowing, fencing, waterpolo, to name a few--that the elites recruit athletes for. And the parents know this.
This is entirely true, and leads to a topic for you to explore next: the difficulty of high-caliber scholars to find a job in the academy. Many of the same pitfalls apply, especially the loss of self-worth that arises when no university is willing or able to give someone a tenure-track position, even though the reasons are usually far beyond an individual's control. In my case, I have a PhD from Harvard, have published two books, a dozen articles, and have had prestigious temporary teaching jobs at SUNY, Johns Hopkins, and Brown University. Yet somehow none of this has been sufficient to land a permanent job anywhere, at least partially due to the market forces that are now familiar to anyone paying attention to trends in higher education. My story probably sounds familiar to Matt, as his does to me.
10
As someone who attended an elite law school, please take to heart that where you attend undergrad doesn't matter, at least when it comes to law school admissions. The Editor-in-Chief of the law review in my class went to a small, no-name state school in California. He got there through his incredible intelligence and hard work. He seemed the type who actually enjoyed and had fun in high school, and then got really serious with his studies in college. All is not lost if you don't attend an elite undergrad program.
7
Thank you for this very thoughtful column, it should be read and passed along to any family that has a daughter or son preparing to apply for entry into college.
What a poignant letter the parents wrote to their son. They are to be commended and thanked for sharing it with your readers. Actually, it brought tears to my eyes, perhaps because I have a grandson in the 11th grade who is beginning the process of preparing to apply for college.
What a poignant letter the parents wrote to their son. They are to be commended and thanked for sharing it with your readers. Actually, it brought tears to my eyes, perhaps because I have a grandson in the 11th grade who is beginning the process of preparing to apply for college.
1
Jenna felt "worthless" because she "only" got into Scripps, Pitzer and University of South Carolina? I have no personal experience with University of South Carolina, but Scripps and Pitzer are excellent, competitive, and highly-regarded schools. Why did she even apply if she felt (or perhaps was made to feel) that they were beneath her? I suspect that the vast majority of the students attending these schools are thrilled to be there -- and for the education itself, not merely as springboards for other enriching experiences or lucrative careers.
2
Much wisdom here. But please note that U. Waterloo is not a mundane institution. It is often referred to as Canada's MIT, a comparison that honors both schools. If anything, its relative modesty proves your point.
So does Jenna's story. Scripps is a VERY good place,as I know personally form working with some of its graduates.
As for Peter Hart, I daresay he got as good an undergraduate business education and an obviously better experience at I.U. than he would have had in Boston. Undergraduate business education, like business, is largely about showing up and getting along in the environment you are in.
Full disclosure: I have degrees from a supposedly "elite, top-tier" place. I see both the benefits and the incompleteness of my education.
So does Jenna's story. Scripps is a VERY good place,as I know personally form working with some of its graduates.
As for Peter Hart, I daresay he got as good an undergraduate business education and an obviously better experience at I.U. than he would have had in Boston. Undergraduate business education, like business, is largely about showing up and getting along in the environment you are in.
Full disclosure: I have degrees from a supposedly "elite, top-tier" place. I see both the benefits and the incompleteness of my education.
6
Hit the pre-order button so fast my mouse slide off my desk. I have an 11th grader who is entering the process now, and the pressure these kids place on themselves is distressing to say the least.
In case anyone is wondering, this is from WIkipedia: "Bruni graduated Phi Beta Kappa from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill . . . .Bruni graduated second in his class with a master of science degree in journalism from Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, where he also won a Pulitzer Traveling Fellowship." UNC Chapel Hill and Columbia? Easy from that perch to say, oh, don't worry about where you go to school. File under "do as I say, not as I do (did)"?
2
But then, Frank did all this schooling as a relatively a young adult. Perhaps his views have changed through the years. For instance, I see no inconsistency in the views he states today versus his decision where to go to undergrad as an 18 year old, a decision he made a few decades ago, when younger and, perhaps, a wee bit less wise.
Bravo! There are so many great schools to choose from and we focus obsessively on the elite ones. My daughter grew up far away from the madness that grips so many college-bound and their families and followed these rules: Ignore the name game. Find a school you love. Put your all into it. It will enrich you and educate you. And ultimately reward you. She's now applying to grad school for a PhD in math; I think she'll do OK.
1
Second, my brother & I stand as living proof that the converse of Bruni's column is also true. My bro graduated from Yale, I from Princeton. While we both obtained superb educations at our schools, & achieved the old-fashioned ideal of becoming literate and steeped in culture by a "liberal education," we're quite the opposite of "successful," by any measure (superficial or our own).
Mental health &/or neurological conditions caused each of us to flounder, after graduation fr professional school, in "the real world." My bro, like a Japanese hikikomuri, hasn't worked since 1991, lives with our parents, & self-medicates with video games & weed. Having finally found the spine to leave my profession (wh I'd always loathed), I struggle with pursuing my true calling (writing horror fiction), while dogged by depression, ADHD (Inattentive Type), PTSD & repeated writer's block. I have one young daughter, whom I raise as a single parent after divorce from a gay marriage.
It was my sister (the rebel; the one who skipped class, shoplifted, had 2 abortions by age 15; the one who shot up IV drugs; the bully "mean girl" with razor-sharp social skills) who ended up becoming "successful" by society's superficial standards. Having "only" gotten into Holy Cross, she married a hedge fund manager, & became a stay-at-home mom (w both kids now in college, & so now a lady of leisure), who delights in judging my brother & me as "losers."
So getting into Yale dsn't mean inevitable success, either.
Mental health &/or neurological conditions caused each of us to flounder, after graduation fr professional school, in "the real world." My bro, like a Japanese hikikomuri, hasn't worked since 1991, lives with our parents, & self-medicates with video games & weed. Having finally found the spine to leave my profession (wh I'd always loathed), I struggle with pursuing my true calling (writing horror fiction), while dogged by depression, ADHD (Inattentive Type), PTSD & repeated writer's block. I have one young daughter, whom I raise as a single parent after divorce from a gay marriage.
It was my sister (the rebel; the one who skipped class, shoplifted, had 2 abortions by age 15; the one who shot up IV drugs; the bully "mean girl" with razor-sharp social skills) who ended up becoming "successful" by society's superficial standards. Having "only" gotten into Holy Cross, she married a hedge fund manager, & became a stay-at-home mom (w both kids now in college, & so now a lady of leisure), who delights in judging my brother & me as "losers."
So getting into Yale dsn't mean inevitable success, either.
8
Though I didn't aim to get into a typical business or pre-med elite school, I was heavily focused on writing in high school, and set my sights on a competitive arts school in Boston, famous for saddling grads with mounds of debt. I applied to only three other colleges, so focused was I to get to this one school.
I did get in, but hated it so fervently I started looking at transfer options within my first few weeks of my first semester.
I learned that students work up complicated ideas of what college should and will be like months, or even years, before they attend it. A focus on college only in the last 2 years of high school leaves students not even enjoying their present surroundings, but dreaming (often incorrectly) about the future. It's the same as dreaming about a singular person, job, or place to live: it often doesn't live up to standards once you date it, work there, or unpack your studio apartment. Keep options open, and place more emphasis on focusing on the present, not a hazy, uncertain future.
I did get in, but hated it so fervently I started looking at transfer options within my first few weeks of my first semester.
I learned that students work up complicated ideas of what college should and will be like months, or even years, before they attend it. A focus on college only in the last 2 years of high school leaves students not even enjoying their present surroundings, but dreaming (often incorrectly) about the future. It's the same as dreaming about a singular person, job, or place to live: it often doesn't live up to standards once you date it, work there, or unpack your studio apartment. Keep options open, and place more emphasis on focusing on the present, not a hazy, uncertain future.
2
Sorry to burst your bubble and perhaps the bubble of many readers, but roughly 60% of 18 to 24 year olds are NOT in college… which is a reflection of another reality: many parents disengage from their child's school experience and, thus, are NOT focused on getting their youngster through HS let alone into HS. Engaged students come from the homes of engaged parents… and if we are really serious about improving education in our country we need to find ways to keep parents engaged in the lives of their children. To do so we might need to pay all parents a decent wage, give them and their children medical care, schedule their work at predictable hours, make sure they get sick leave if their child is ill, and schedule teacher conferences at a time that is convenient for them.
2
I know an amazing young woman, an aspiring doctor, who got into Princeton. I talked to her over Christmas, in the middle of her junior year of college, and she broke my heart. She's decided she's not cut out to be a doctor because she did not feel successful in Princeton's chemistry class. And she talked about her experience in another class, where she did not like to ask questions because she thought people would look at her and think "who let her in?" Malcolm Gladwell describes something called "Elite Institution Cognitive Disorder" which fits this student's experience well. We can wake up from that. Those of us who watched children cry broken-heatedly over rejections (mine did on Pi Day a few years back over a letter from MIT) only to flourish in better matched place should do what we can to help those families behind us avoid the same mistakes.
11
I had the following advice from my PhD advisor at Columbia: "If you are not very good, you should go to Harvard. If you are very good, it does not matter where to go." Look at the colleges attended by the faculty at an elite university, and you can see the truth of this statement.
15
Sounds like sour grapes from your advisor.
4
How things have changed over a generation! When I was growing up, many kids weren't planning on going to college, though some were planning on attending a trade school. My sister and I were brought up to believe it was important to go to college, as long as it was in state. How ridiculous to pay out-of-state tuition, our parents said, when there were perfectly good state colleges for a fraction of the cost. My younger sister wanted to attend an out-of-state college so my dad transferred to a another division of his company in the chosen state because she could get in-state tuition if they moved. When I graduated, no one in any company seemed to care where I went to school. They were more interested in what I had done while in school, and how I could measurably do the job, how personable/teachable I would be.. In my sister's case, the school mattered, just a little more because she went into legal work.
Ten years ago I attended an esteemed school for my graduate work, but didn't find it to be better than the state school I attended much earlier. Just as it had been when I was a kid, what a student got out of college depended more upon what he/she put into it than the brand.
Ten years ago I attended an esteemed school for my graduate work, but didn't find it to be better than the state school I attended much earlier. Just as it had been when I was a kid, what a student got out of college depended more upon what he/she put into it than the brand.
53
I commend your father for moving to a different state in order to allow your sister to attend what was presumably a better public college at discounted in-state rates and many people are doing something similar today.
But I question your skepticism about what you refer to as a "brand". You may be correct that a less competitive school may offer a better education than the "brand" schools. But whether we like it or not, there are certain careers where the brand matters. For law as an example, I looked up the number of lawyers at one of the top law firms (Sullivan Cromwell) attended different schools. 133 lawyers had attended Harvard. Only 1 lawyer had attended Rutgers. Now Rutgers is a fine school. (It's the State school of NJ.) My wife attended Harvard and can attest to the fact that the education for undergraduates is not always stellar since the school focuses a lot of their efforts on the famous grad schools. But the brand (or what I call the informational advantage) can not be ignored.
For other professions such as IT or engineering, brand matters less. My advice for parents helping children through this process (which I did with my oldest daughter a few years ago) is to try to realistically understand what your child wants and where they can best realize those goals. The classic safety, target and dream school designation is a good way to go. But ignoring the reputation of a school is simply myopic.
But I question your skepticism about what you refer to as a "brand". You may be correct that a less competitive school may offer a better education than the "brand" schools. But whether we like it or not, there are certain careers where the brand matters. For law as an example, I looked up the number of lawyers at one of the top law firms (Sullivan Cromwell) attended different schools. 133 lawyers had attended Harvard. Only 1 lawyer had attended Rutgers. Now Rutgers is a fine school. (It's the State school of NJ.) My wife attended Harvard and can attest to the fact that the education for undergraduates is not always stellar since the school focuses a lot of their efforts on the famous grad schools. But the brand (or what I call the informational advantage) can not be ignored.
For other professions such as IT or engineering, brand matters less. My advice for parents helping children through this process (which I did with my oldest daughter a few years ago) is to try to realistically understand what your child wants and where they can best realize those goals. The classic safety, target and dream school designation is a good way to go. But ignoring the reputation of a school is simply myopic.
1
I didn't say that brands made no difference at all, rather than for most of us who work in the professional world, it really doesn't matter where we went to school. What's more important is professional knowledge base, thinking and adaptability. What demonstrated value we can add? How well do we play with others? True that for fields like law (a overpriced degree with a poor job prospects), where the student went to school makes a definitive difference. But for most of us, it really doesn't matter that much. Like many other college grads, I got a great education at my state school and did well later with my Master's too at another state school, just one esteemed in my field.
This is a great column. Sure, it's an insane rat race, but if a kid is up to it and engaged in it willingly, why not try for the best?
Soooooo Peter's lesson is don't worry too much about getting into Harvard, because you still might be able to get into Harvard for grad school?
Not a great example there, Mr. Bruni.
Not a great example there, Mr. Bruni.
2
"And he finagled a way, off campus, to interview with several of the top-drawer consulting firms that trawled for recruits at the Ivies but often bypassed schools like Indiana." & "IMHO it makes sense to pursue admission to the elite universities, since their huge endowments give them far more resources than the average college.": the answer to the craze for elite insitutions -in 2 quotes from commenters
And from my son who is otherwise happy at his large State U: it's not just the "best employers" who focus on the top colleges but also the well known and inspiring public figures who do not visit to give speeches/participate in panels. The lack of resources shows most clearly in the overwhelmed career counsellors and adjunct faculty :which will get worse as funding continues to get cut.
And from my son who is otherwise happy at his large State U: it's not just the "best employers" who focus on the top colleges but also the well known and inspiring public figures who do not visit to give speeches/participate in panels. The lack of resources shows most clearly in the overwhelmed career counsellors and adjunct faculty :which will get worse as funding continues to get cut.
1
This article doesn't go far enuf. The point is that the US admissions game, far from being a "meritocracy," is RIGGED to favor the rich or athletic.
Alumni-brat, donor-brat & sports admissions take up a large percentage of the available slots. When a whole slew of kids get in simply bc "Mommy went there"; bc they're big & fat enuf to protect a quarterback; or bc Daddy funded the new library, how can anyone denied one of the remaining slots take this as a measure of their self worth?
Then there's the "wait-list" game. Ivy A admits all the poor, smart kids who were aware they could apply & dared to do so. (Of course some poor, smart kids have already self-selected themselves out, bc they feel they & their parents can't afford it. Other poor, smart kids go to decimated schools whose guidance counselors wd never dream of looking for standouts who shd be applying to Ivy A.)
Meanwhile, Ivy A puts the rich, dumb kids on the wait list. It offer scholarships to only a percentage of the smart, poor kids. The others are too smart to take on debt, & go to a state school that WILL offer a full scholarship. Some of the smart, poor kids end up rejecting Ivy A for Ivy B. After Ivy A has sorted all this out, they open the floodgates to the rich, dumb kids on the wait list.
It's an outrage that any teenager or (worse) his/her parents wd feel admission to any US college was a valid measure of ANYTHING. The only thing it indicates is that the family is rich enuf to pay full freight.
Alumni-brat, donor-brat & sports admissions take up a large percentage of the available slots. When a whole slew of kids get in simply bc "Mommy went there"; bc they're big & fat enuf to protect a quarterback; or bc Daddy funded the new library, how can anyone denied one of the remaining slots take this as a measure of their self worth?
Then there's the "wait-list" game. Ivy A admits all the poor, smart kids who were aware they could apply & dared to do so. (Of course some poor, smart kids have already self-selected themselves out, bc they feel they & their parents can't afford it. Other poor, smart kids go to decimated schools whose guidance counselors wd never dream of looking for standouts who shd be applying to Ivy A.)
Meanwhile, Ivy A puts the rich, dumb kids on the wait list. It offer scholarships to only a percentage of the smart, poor kids. The others are too smart to take on debt, & go to a state school that WILL offer a full scholarship. Some of the smart, poor kids end up rejecting Ivy A for Ivy B. After Ivy A has sorted all this out, they open the floodgates to the rich, dumb kids on the wait list.
It's an outrage that any teenager or (worse) his/her parents wd feel admission to any US college was a valid measure of ANYTHING. The only thing it indicates is that the family is rich enuf to pay full freight.
4
Looking back many years to my college decision, by far the most important result of my choice was this: It began a series of random and completely unpredictable events which, years later, led to my meeting my beloved wife.
1
As one who volunteers time interviewing high school seniors for his Ivy League alma mater, I thank you for this, Mr. Bruni. It may comfort students to know that Universities receive applications from as many as tens of thousands thoroughly qualified, well credentialed students. All of the Ivies combined can’t admit them all. And this sets off a cycle. The top students who are not admitted will pivot their efforts to other Universities, raising the competitive bar for the student body there. Many parents have experienced a similar phenomenon in the labor market: Before the recession, jobs that required a high school diploma are now occupied by people with Bachelor degrees. Jobs that required only an undergraduate degree are now being filled with people with Master degrees. This is why some parents are so focused their child’s undergraduate achievement: to help position their child for his / her eventual entry to a tough job market. But there are other things to remember. The standards of elite Universities are a great bar to set, but they are not meant to be a verdict on anyone’s life or on the legacy of a family. A rich and fulfilling life can follow any path. It’s ours to make. Embrace the infinite and beautiful possibilities that every life turn will offer, especially the ones that might appear disappointing. And parents shouldn't worry too much about their children’s careers years before they even begin. If things don’t work out, they can always come home!
3
Mom and Dad wrote a nice letter to their son but it does not undo all the earlier pressure they probably put upon him for many years.
2
This is one of the best columns on higher education - and parenting - I have ever read. Thank you. Every parent should write such a letter to their children. Where they go to college does not matter (and is often out of their control) but who they ARE does matter (and is in their control). I am so glad I graduated from Foothill Community College and San Jose State University. Those credentials got me pretty far, including a chance to serve in President Obama's administration.
2
Frank: Its all about the test! My 8th grader just finished taking all the exams to get into New York's "elite" high schools. Talk about pressure. You need to remember that today, all the stress about "good" schools starts a lot earlier than college. My son had a great mental outlook that I think more students should have. In taking 6 entrance exams on top of the 54 practice exams my son realized that "the school is not choosing him, rather, he is choosing the school and be lucky to get him". The stress I witnessed on all these children going to all these schools and taking all those exams was evident on their faces. We are going to loose something very precious in our youth and I'm afraid for my children. All this pressure and stress to succeed is taking its toll on our youth. And, my son got into and CHOSE to attend the very elite (but free) Regis High School.
32
It starts far earlier than 8th grade, as anyone who had tried to get into a top nursery school, which feeds into a top K-12, which feeds.....can attest.
3
This is great news!!! Hooray for your son. He will have a new Head of School who is an outstanding human being and educator. He will thrive.
1
My son attends one of the specialized high schools in New York City. I can tell you that it is not true that the student picks the school in most cases. For the specialized schools if the student has the score for the school he wants then yes he's picking his school otherwise he gets into the most competitive one that his score matched. For the non specialized high schools, unless he chooses a school that has open admissions the school is choosing him. If there's any kind of selective admissions process he decides which school to put down but the High School decides which students they're going to accept. If he's lucky he will get accepted to his first choice.
1
Wonderful reminder to keep a sense of perspective. As my kids get closer to high school and this process, we keep trying to instill in them they will end up at the school that is the right place for them. It does not need to be any Ivy or elite school: they will receive an education wherever they attend. If they put forth their best effort in school and otherwise, without making themselves sick and crazy, then where they end up getting in is where they were meant to be.
They are not yet in high school, and you "keep trying to instill in them" that you don't feel strongly about where they end up going to college? I hate to think what you'd be telling them if you _weren't_ pressuring them.
This is the most sensible article on college admissions that I have read in recent time. The NYT should run it annually until students and parents adjust their expectations.
The one thing that I've learned through decades of work, lay-offs, promotions, successes, failures, bonuses and Lord knows what else -- there isn't a "golden ticket" to a happy and perhaps financially successful life. Emphasis belongs on life-long learning -- not "the right school."
-- Retired computer science prof and engineer
The one thing that I've learned through decades of work, lay-offs, promotions, successes, failures, bonuses and Lord knows what else -- there isn't a "golden ticket" to a happy and perhaps financially successful life. Emphasis belongs on life-long learning -- not "the right school."
-- Retired computer science prof and engineer
3
I agree that education should be based on interest, suitability, etc., but this situation is based on branding, not education. Lately I see so many people promote themselves a "Harvard trained MD" or "Princeton graduate" or whatever. You have no idea about their grades, or courses taken, etc., just the label. Like a handbag,
But that is what many people are buying. Bragging rights, career advantages, etc it has very little to do with what used to be called "education".
But that is what many people are buying. Bragging rights, career advantages, etc it has very little to do with what used to be called "education".
3
Mr. Bruni tries to be comforting, but his columns on college admissions inevitably come off as elitist and condescending. I went to the University of Oklahoma for my undergraduate degree. I would have loved to go to a prestigious school like Scripps College, IU, or Lehigh instead -- the same schools that make these applicants feel "worthless."
I don't think that feeling worthless after being rejected by Yale, but accepted by Lehigh -- a school with a 30% acceptance rate -- is an experience shared by many people.
I don't think that feeling worthless after being rejected by Yale, but accepted by Lehigh -- a school with a 30% acceptance rate -- is an experience shared by many people.
5
Awww. Nice article, nice letter from those parents. It saddens me to think that some of life's hardest blows - college rejection, unrequited love - fall on people who are still so young and green.
Why would anyone allow (or pay for) their child to apply to 17 schools? In the "old days," the ivy admin staffs got together and decided which school would accept which applicant (yes, folks!) and students picked a stretch, one or two they wanted and a safety school. That's it, 17 is nuts, it's like dating 17 guys and hoping one will rise to the top. I was luckier, applied to 3, got in all and picked a top 20 school not because it was the best but because my parents couldn't drive there, and back, in one day. Saved my sanity and my social life. And, by the way, Harvard and Bucknell should not be in the same sentence with the latter being an extension of prep school. Cue the blonde with pink and green Lily shifts. Apply smart, go for scholarships and honors programs, attend a community college for your first two years (I'll never tell) and then go to West Point or Annapolis - best networks on earth, friends for life, a ring that says it all in an interview and most important, FREE.
There is nothing to be ashamed in attending a Community College. Stop the elitism.There are great insitutions in which counts with faculty with "Ivy league" degrees. In deed many of my students have been admitted to top tiers schools ans are very proud graduates from my college and even better do not need to be showing rings as a sign of their worth.
1
Your choice of major will dictate much more of your life than the choice of university. People get caught up in the prestige of 'who you know' and forget that the part that you can control, the 'what you know', is the part it makes the most sense to focus on. Plan to leave school with useful skills in a field that gives you satisfaction when you do it well. Wherever you go to school, you will find attractive young people whose company you can enjoy. Focus on the path forward, not the place.
In réponse to ED from Wausau who says "There is in essence no cogent reason to attend any private school other than being turned down by a public one! "
My undergraduate and graduate degrees are from name brand private schools. I taught for 40 years at "flagship" public universities. It's true that public universities cost much less and offer equivalent educational opportunity, but I've spent my life observing students, particularly undergraduates, in both environments. There is a difference.
While success is almost entirely a result of the effort that students themselves make to take advantage of what their school has to offer (and they all tend to offer more opportunities than any individual can fully take advantage of), the peer expectations at competitive private schools is markedly higher. That is, students at the elite schools anticipate (correctly) that more will be expected of them, and they expect far more of each other.
If you visit a classroom in an elite private school and in a similar course at a top public university it's easy to notice that a difference in the dynamic of the class. It's not something inherent in the students as individuals. I taught lots of students who were accepted at private colleges but attended a public university for financial reasons. Whether the boost in incentive that the aura of an elite school creates is worth the substantial additional cost is a another question.
My undergraduate and graduate degrees are from name brand private schools. I taught for 40 years at "flagship" public universities. It's true that public universities cost much less and offer equivalent educational opportunity, but I've spent my life observing students, particularly undergraduates, in both environments. There is a difference.
While success is almost entirely a result of the effort that students themselves make to take advantage of what their school has to offer (and they all tend to offer more opportunities than any individual can fully take advantage of), the peer expectations at competitive private schools is markedly higher. That is, students at the elite schools anticipate (correctly) that more will be expected of them, and they expect far more of each other.
If you visit a classroom in an elite private school and in a similar course at a top public university it's easy to notice that a difference in the dynamic of the class. It's not something inherent in the students as individuals. I taught lots of students who were accepted at private colleges but attended a public university for financial reasons. Whether the boost in incentive that the aura of an elite school creates is worth the substantial additional cost is a another question.
1
Interesting Frank only profiled kids from elite private high schools. Why? Here in CA there is a depressing trend in the silicone valley for parents to start this madness in middle school, as they select the appropriate private HS for their darlings. (I suspect it is at least in part so the kiddies don't have to compete with the asian students who dominate many of the area public schools) thankfully in the rest of the Bay Area this trend has not taken root, and most dis-- rich, middle and poor-- go to public high schools. Who in their right mind would spend over 50K for high school when you can go to the local public school for free? And side benefit-- the kids all get into the same colleges!
5
Excellent article, restoring sanity to a process that's become crazy among the middle (and higher) classes. But where I work -- at Henry Street Settlement, a social service organization on the Lower East Side -- there are a different set of struggles among our college bound youth, something I call How the Other Half Go to College. These youth, often the first in their families to apply to college, must choose after-school jobs over extracurricular activities, as most come from low-income homes. Their public school college counselors are stretched thin. This is where Henry Street steps in, offering free SAT prep, and free help with every step of the college admission process, from bus trips to visit college campuses to connecting them with the financial aid to attend school. Unlike the students profiled in this article, our youth don't face the same sort of admissions pressure, which I guess is a silver lining. And most end up doing quite well.
3
Great piece! It's not how you start but how you finish in academia, as your U of I to Harvard example showed. A LOT of Harvard kids do the reverse, and THAT story isn't heard enough. As for first choice schools being 'too expensive', I marvel at parents who say that, but drive Audi's parked in three car garages in tony suburbs. Priorities. Do you want a Benz and an kid in Econ with 200 students, or a 10 year old van and a kid in Econ with 20 students? BTW, thanks for the shout out to Scripps and I wish you had mentioned the Five Sisters. Those all-women colleges are graduating some terrific women.
While offering some thoughtful insights, this is the kind of article the "elite" NYT readers like. A subliminal message to lower all of the expectations for these "regular" kids and tell them it is OK if they don't attend an IVY or Elite school. They should settle for something which is a better fit for them.
This will increase the chances of getting their exceptional and well deserving children into these Elite schools.
This will increase the chances of getting their exceptional and well deserving children into these Elite schools.
1
The best part of this piece is the letter to Matt. You're correct that most of the country is not fixated on the Ivies for their kids, but focused on helping them find meaningful, affordable college experience that lets them learn who they are how they want to live in the world. Our youngest has just been accepted at a terrific state school in Missouri and the fit seems ideal for her academically and athletically. For the college-bound kids: it's about life and getting what you want out of it. Let that guide your decisions. It that means an elite institution to you, please consider what that means for you and your family carefully.
52
1) This article is only relevant to the elite of the elite (which presumably includes many readers of the New York Times). Most people never enter into the madness before they go to college. Half go to community colleges.
2) As a parent of two kids who were "winners" in this game -- elite private college, Ivy League university -- I now wish they had lost and gone to a state school. For one, many in these elite schools are burned out from this game that began for them, literally, in kindergarten and continued through expensive prep schools. They made it and are not jaded and cynical and want nothing to do with intellectual life. More importantly, the "top" schools reflect the country's financial schism: a large percentage of the students at them come from families that are not just rich but so incredibly wealthy that it skews the entire culture. These are not places to go if you want to learn that you might actually have to work for a living someday. Because so many of the students there will never have to.
2) As a parent of two kids who were "winners" in this game -- elite private college, Ivy League university -- I now wish they had lost and gone to a state school. For one, many in these elite schools are burned out from this game that began for them, literally, in kindergarten and continued through expensive prep schools. They made it and are not jaded and cynical and want nothing to do with intellectual life. More importantly, the "top" schools reflect the country's financial schism: a large percentage of the students at them come from families that are not just rich but so incredibly wealthy that it skews the entire culture. These are not places to go if you want to learn that you might actually have to work for a living someday. Because so many of the students there will never have to.
2
In our society today, an undergraduate degree is worthless. A glorified high school diploma. The only reason it is needed, is because it is used as a stepping stone to graduate school. It seems that the strategy would be to avoid top schools like the plague, save the money at a second or third tier college that gives academic scholarship and then try your best for a top graduate program. It is much more prestigious to have a law degree from Harvard and an undergraduate from Queens College, than an undergraduate from Harvard and a law degree from Queens College. Not to mention all the money that you'd save.
2
Thank you for writing this. My first draft went off half done into cyberspace. As a successful MD, mom, wife, parent of soon to graduate from HS and college kids, I have seen many scenarios. Also I am a psychiatrist/with specialty working with college kids. My kids hate to hear my 50 something year , old- fashioned expression: "there's more that one way to skin a cat" (i love cats) because they grew up at a different time, so I just think it now. I took 3 years off between UC Berkeley and Tufts Med School and met many docs along the way who went to schools I had never heard of- we all end up in the same place and one from Harvard vs one from an unknown college succeed based on other factors. It's the skills you take to become a good doctor (not all docs are the same). UMass Amherst is free here and turns out just as many happy, future success stories as Amherst College nearby.
5
I can so relate to this. I graduated from Stuyvesant High School in 1983. I don't know what my class ranking was, but if I made it into the top half, I'd be surprised. When it came time to college admissions time, I set my sights on University of Michigan, which was not nearly as difficult to get admitted to in the '80's (and not nearly as expensive!), but was still considered a good school. My self image went through a transformation there as well. I re-discovered that I was a competent student, something I never felt during my years at Stuyvesant.
Mr. Bruni advises us to be broad minded and view colleges as a place of learning, exploration, and development for our youth, and not be saddled by categorizing higher education institutions as the "ivies" or "elite colleges."
Ironically, he ends up categorizing places of higher education by using the term "...a decent college — any decent college..."
Mr. Bruni, please let us know what constitutes a "decent college."
In your opinion, would you consider community college that trains so many members of our workforce to be "decent colleges"?
Ironically, he ends up categorizing places of higher education by using the term "...a decent college — any decent college..."
Mr. Bruni, please let us know what constitutes a "decent college."
In your opinion, would you consider community college that trains so many members of our workforce to be "decent colleges"?
2
Wonderful! Thank you, Frank, for bringing a much needed measure of common sense to what must be a soul-searing
experience for our young people.
experience for our young people.
This article seems to celebrate one of the most troubling aspects of our society: being born wealthy yields adult success and wealth regardless of education or aspiration. Bruni holds up Peter and Jenna as great stories of triumph over adversity. This is a skewed picture. Both came from affluence, attending schools private in spirit if not in name. They were guaranteed success whether they went to Yale or Indiana for a number of reasons. Both are surely great people who have a lesson to teach those who are heartbroken when they don't get admitted to the most elite schools in the world. But does Mr. Bruni simply want to argue that the privileged and well-connected can succeed even if they go to a top-50 vs. a top-5 school? Of course! Success and wealth in the U.S. does not depend on which elite school one attends. It depends mostly on being born into the elite class that has access to any of those institutions in the first place. The college admissions tragedy isn't that students spend a few weeks heartbroken after being rejected from one elite institution and then go on to succeed after attending another one. The college admissions tragedy is that most Americans (about 60% or more) will never have a real chance to be admitted and benefit from the enormous rewards that come from being entitled to education and affluence. The triumph will come when those preoccupied with college admissions realize the extraordinary privilege of attending an elite institution at all.
520
I agree entirely with what you have posted here, however, its not only about income its about expectations. Successful families embed successful aspirations in their children. Thus, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. It is easier for the child of success to be successful but its not a guarantee. The opposite is also true the children of less successful families are not generally raised with the expectation of success. That is why a public educational system geared for and with the expectation of achievement is critical for all our children. The private sector is not the panacea to achieve this goal its a public education system that is provided the resources to achieve such goal. The republican solution is to say that teachers are simply incompetent cuddled government employees so we should shower their donors with public money on for profit schools that in general do not produce any significant improvement aside from fattening their donors wallets. The real solution is to provide all our school children the funds to maintain a competitive level of education. Why should public schools in DC have to scramble to buy books while public schools 20 miles away in Fairfax Va. are agonizing about if they should buy the 5,000 of 50000 dollar 3D printer for their advanced engineering course! If anything the DC kids should have at least the same funds the Fairfax kids do. Jim crow is still alive and well in our public system.
4
An affluent background only gives one a bit of a leg up on those from poorer ones. Once in school it is the student who determines their success. A pampered kid may actually be less able to thrive than one who has struggled & become strong.
1
This comment makes a good point but misses in one key respect. First, despite their advantages, Peter and Jenna were not "guaranteed success." They had to work hard to achieve it, just as hard if not harder than if they had come from a less privileged background.
1
The reason you don't see many elite colleges represented in the ranks of the CEO's of the most successful corporations is because the whole point behind an elite degree is to be able to live the life of the upper crust without really trying very hard. That's why so many investment bankers are from the Ivies.
Elite grads want positions, not jobs, while in the real world, people who strive hardest throughout life achieve the most. Tim Cook, graduate of Auburn University, exemplifies the principle. Elite colleges let you get a cushy job in the bureaucracy which is really just a position, but only hard work after college gets you the leadership positions that matter.
Elite grads want positions, not jobs, while in the real world, people who strive hardest throughout life achieve the most. Tim Cook, graduate of Auburn University, exemplifies the principle. Elite colleges let you get a cushy job in the bureaucracy which is really just a position, but only hard work after college gets you the leadership positions that matter.
1
The assumption that it is far better to attend a big name school, Ivy League or someplace just as well known and considered as good, is based on a mistake.
Prior to the imposition of a more, but not complete, meritocratic system of admission in the late 1960s and 1970s, the rich and the comfortable sent their kids to "their schools", Harvard, etc. Those who weren't wealthy desired to have their children associate with those who were. (in America, poverty or lack of wealth is considered a social disease). The "top schools" became more and more "top" because those who went there, being already rich, gave prestige and, in turn, massive donations to make the schools even richer. The education itself is not that much better or other worldly.
The perceived necessity of getting into an elite school does more psychic harm to more young aspirations that easily out weighs the social benefits derived from those who do attend. Hundreds of thousands are told they are second rate. Unfortunately, they believe it.
The elite schools capitalize on their elite status to carefully weed out students so that, in turn, they can preserve their elite status by graduating these already very well prepared students. How hard is that?
In my own life and career, I am certain there are times when I would have been given more opportunity, more space to succeed, with a prestige name school beside my name. So what? I've had more opportunities anyway than one person deserves.
http://terryreport.com
Prior to the imposition of a more, but not complete, meritocratic system of admission in the late 1960s and 1970s, the rich and the comfortable sent their kids to "their schools", Harvard, etc. Those who weren't wealthy desired to have their children associate with those who were. (in America, poverty or lack of wealth is considered a social disease). The "top schools" became more and more "top" because those who went there, being already rich, gave prestige and, in turn, massive donations to make the schools even richer. The education itself is not that much better or other worldly.
The perceived necessity of getting into an elite school does more psychic harm to more young aspirations that easily out weighs the social benefits derived from those who do attend. Hundreds of thousands are told they are second rate. Unfortunately, they believe it.
The elite schools capitalize on their elite status to carefully weed out students so that, in turn, they can preserve their elite status by graduating these already very well prepared students. How hard is that?
In my own life and career, I am certain there are times when I would have been given more opportunity, more space to succeed, with a prestige name school beside my name. So what? I've had more opportunities anyway than one person deserves.
http://terryreport.com
1
Tom, in Maryland..., you took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you! Why on earth should there be ANOTHER article, when it comes to college admissions about the elite schools? The NY times' circulation is about 1.3 million then add a few more hundred thousand or even a million more to that number. So Frank, of all of these readers, how many do you think are looking to enter their kids into these top 50 schools?
Please speak a little more to the masses, and not the 1%. True, you have some "spot on" points. But right away you turn off the 99% who may like the article well enough, but it can't really help them, can it? Write something that may actually benefit the B-minus kid, and the struggling middle class family.
Please speak a little more to the masses, and not the 1%. True, you have some "spot on" points. But right away you turn off the 99% who may like the article well enough, but it can't really help them, can it? Write something that may actually benefit the B-minus kid, and the struggling middle class family.
I just got an email from Yale trumpeting the stupendous, unbelievable innovations they are making in teaching practices. Turns out that a few of the professors are abandoning the lecture/listen model from the 1600s and allowing students to ask questions and talk with each other while problem-solving, and sometimes even actually interact with them. They built special innovation labs for this. And they hired a guy to help professors learn to teach. Their "innovations" would be inadequate at most decent public elementary schools where there is actual skilled teaching.
But not much changes at the core - giant lecture halls with 200+ students in them, a genius up front saying very intelligent things for 90 minutes while students fight with sleep. A couple days later there's a "section" taught by an untrained 25 year old grad student who is very bright.
Contrast this blind self-satisfaction with the better colleges whose average class sizes are 12-15 and taught by an actual professor.
Yale is about the valuable brand stamp on your forehead, the peer group, and the awesome physical plant. Yes, you can learn a lot there, but not because it is taught on purpose. Better alternatives exist. Congratulations to Peter and Jenna.
But not much changes at the core - giant lecture halls with 200+ students in them, a genius up front saying very intelligent things for 90 minutes while students fight with sleep. A couple days later there's a "section" taught by an untrained 25 year old grad student who is very bright.
Contrast this blind self-satisfaction with the better colleges whose average class sizes are 12-15 and taught by an actual professor.
Yale is about the valuable brand stamp on your forehead, the peer group, and the awesome physical plant. Yes, you can learn a lot there, but not because it is taught on purpose. Better alternatives exist. Congratulations to Peter and Jenna.
6
Thank you for writing this piece, I am sending it to my son who is a current high school senior waiting to hear from all of his top choices. He got into a SUNY school but thinks the caliber of student there will not be as good enough to challenge him. He has had to confront the reality of the cost of his education as his friends have gotten to Ivies and "second tier" schools, with parents and grandparents with deep pockets willing to provide the means to pay for them.
We are of proud of his hard work and accomplishments. We know he will do well wherever he attends because he has a strong work ethic and a admirable moral compass. There is definitely a status factor among his peer group in what is expected from high achieving students, and I understand the contacts he would make at a top school will be important. I also think that the caliper of students of state schools is on the rise and many will go on to have fulfilling successful lives and there will be grad school to pay for too.
The cost, the competition to get in to college, and economic uncertainty of our era makes this process incredibly stressful for students today, and much more difficult then when I went to college. Many students have incredible opportunities with improved access to technology, health care, and resources, but live in a world that seems more and more to value achievement metrics set by institutions of higher learning over wisdom. And that seems to me a cost to high for families to bear.
We are of proud of his hard work and accomplishments. We know he will do well wherever he attends because he has a strong work ethic and a admirable moral compass. There is definitely a status factor among his peer group in what is expected from high achieving students, and I understand the contacts he would make at a top school will be important. I also think that the caliper of students of state schools is on the rise and many will go on to have fulfilling successful lives and there will be grad school to pay for too.
The cost, the competition to get in to college, and economic uncertainty of our era makes this process incredibly stressful for students today, and much more difficult then when I went to college. Many students have incredible opportunities with improved access to technology, health care, and resources, but live in a world that seems more and more to value achievement metrics set by institutions of higher learning over wisdom. And that seems to me a cost to high for families to bear.
3
A significant problem with conforming to societal expectations of achievement, even beyond academic pursuits, is a failure both to develop as an individual and to take calculated risks in life. As a result, some of our brightest young minds do not reach their optimal potential or experience life to its fullest - in which case we all lose out...
2
Reading this, it occurs to me that neither my sister nor I - both distinguished students in high school, with multiple awards, high GPAs, honors transcripts, impeccable AP scores and SATS, extracurriculars, etc., etc. - got into our first choice schools. Nor our second, nor our third, as I recall. It doesn't seem so important now. We had both applied to seven schools; we both got into at least 3 or 4. And we each ended up at a college that turned out to be a staggeringly good fit, though they were the "overlooked" schools on our lists. She ended up with an Ivy League PhD and I got an MFA from a prestigious school. We're happy, fulfilled professionals. I also met my husband in college, which makes my school choice ultimately the best decision I've made yet in life. I can remember being disappointed but not crushed by the rejections. You just move on, and hopefully you move to something good and make something of it all. I can't imagine what I ever saw in those other schools to begin with. ;-)
74
This is far and away the best article I've seen on this topic. We're in the middle of this process now, and this rings so true. The notion that where you go matters more than what you do when you get there has terribly skewed the priorities of kids, their parents, and their high schools. It's easy to get caught up in it, and really important to resist. This column helps stiffen our resolve.
1
Newsflash from the epicenter of high-achievers:
Another suicide in Palo Alto; a fifteen year old boy from one of the highest-performing high schools in the country threw himself in front of a train.
Too much pressure on these kids, too early in life with egos too fragile.
Perhaps this is for another column, but if you follow the dotted line, the disappointment at being rejected from these elite schools will lead down this same path for some kids, as the boy that didn't see a future ahead of him.
Another suicide in Palo Alto; a fifteen year old boy from one of the highest-performing high schools in the country threw himself in front of a train.
Too much pressure on these kids, too early in life with egos too fragile.
Perhaps this is for another column, but if you follow the dotted line, the disappointment at being rejected from these elite schools will lead down this same path for some kids, as the boy that didn't see a future ahead of him.
2
Are you sure you know the reason? Maybe his girlfriend broke up with him, or his parents abused him. Teenagers have angst over lots of problems.
As a pastor, let me offer a counter-cultural PS to Mr. Bruni's wonderful article. Why do we as parents insist on preparing our kids for a rat race that cannot be won? Yes, we want our children to thrive, but a vibrant life encompasses much more than academic/economic success. All of us -- parents and children -- should do our best, but our fullest humanity encompasses a life that includes compassion, generosity, and joy. White-knuckled focus on being # 1 is a fevered insanity that we all do well to spurn.
338
John, as beneficial as it can be for employment opportunity, college is much more than preparation for a rat race.
It offers plenty of lessons in compassion, generosity, and joy - as well as a terrific foundation for a lifetime of learning.
It offers plenty of lessons in compassion, generosity, and joy - as well as a terrific foundation for a lifetime of learning.
2
Losing at education, Jobs, Live, and etc. is OK by you?
I educated our children so that they understood that they will have unhappy lives if they decide to give up and not compete in life!
I educated our children so that they understood that they will have unhappy lives if they decide to give up and not compete in life!
1
With all due respect, pastor, I do not believe that you understood the point that Bruni (and the students he uses as illustrations were making). Consider Jenna's quote, "“I never would have had the strength, drive or fearlessness to take such a risk if I hadn’t been rejected so intensely before,” she told me. “There’s a beauty to that kind of rejection, because it allows you to find the strength within.”
It's not about the "rat race" to use your words. It's about striving to do your best even amongst stiff competition. And the point Jenna was making is that even if you do fail, you still succeed because it allows you to develop your resilence and inner strength. Of course, these "type A" traits need to be tempered with the traits you suggest such as "compassion, generosity and joy". But with fewer Americans than ever participating in the work force, do we really want to criticize those kids (such as those in the article) that have found the resolve to compete, perhaps not reach their goal and then renew their effort ? I don't think so. We need more students like Peter and Jenna ... not fewer.
It's not about the "rat race" to use your words. It's about striving to do your best even amongst stiff competition. And the point Jenna was making is that even if you do fail, you still succeed because it allows you to develop your resilence and inner strength. Of course, these "type A" traits need to be tempered with the traits you suggest such as "compassion, generosity and joy". But with fewer Americans than ever participating in the work force, do we really want to criticize those kids (such as those in the article) that have found the resolve to compete, perhaps not reach their goal and then renew their effort ? I don't think so. We need more students like Peter and Jenna ... not fewer.
2
Mr. Bruni seems woefully misinformed. We live in metro Boston and are sending our son in the fall to the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University. Their undergraduate business program is tied for 8th nationally in the US News rankings--higher, for example, than Cornell (Ivy League), or the "elite" schools here such as Boston College and Boston University.
1
Doesn't that simply reinforce the point Mr. Bruni is trying to make?
Frank, bravo. My son's experience -
Excellent student in high school. 4+ GPA. SAT 2360, ACT - perfect score. Extracurricular activities. Because he was attracted to engineering he was hopeful for MIT, confident in his chances for 7 other prestigious schools. He was turned down at all but 2.
My sister, who went through the process two years before mine with her own children, gave him some great advice which more or less parallels yours - a diploma with a prestigious seal is no longer the ticket to opportunity it once was. Personal initiative, she claimed, makes or breaks a student's college experience.
Coming from a graduate of Yale and Harvard Medical School, her advice carried some weight, and (as usual) she was right. My son is attending the University of Michigan, having a great time, and interning this summer at one of the most prestigious aerospace companies in the world. Full speed ahead.
Excellent student in high school. 4+ GPA. SAT 2360, ACT - perfect score. Extracurricular activities. Because he was attracted to engineering he was hopeful for MIT, confident in his chances for 7 other prestigious schools. He was turned down at all but 2.
My sister, who went through the process two years before mine with her own children, gave him some great advice which more or less parallels yours - a diploma with a prestigious seal is no longer the ticket to opportunity it once was. Personal initiative, she claimed, makes or breaks a student's college experience.
Coming from a graduate of Yale and Harvard Medical School, her advice carried some weight, and (as usual) she was right. My son is attending the University of Michigan, having a great time, and interning this summer at one of the most prestigious aerospace companies in the world. Full speed ahead.
The U of M engineering school is very solid. Hardly a fallback. I went to U of M and worked at MIT. From an undergrad point of view, I don't see a lot of difference.
2
Read Walt Bogdanich and then go see The Hunting Ground.
It's not often I get choked up reading articles about college admissions, but the letter from Craig and Diana Levin to their son Matt did the trick. Actually, the letter says so much more about these parents' love for their son than anything about the admissions process. Matt is truly lucky to have loving parents who care so much about supporting him to be and do whatever is meaningful to him. If only more parents could learn from their example!
2
Entirely predicable that the kids you profiled are not getting into Ivy League colleges. If you are white or Asian, upper-middle-class suburban, and particularly female, then good grades, test scores, sports, music and community service don't cut it-- especially if you wait to apply regular decision. A record like that works only if you're an underrepresented minority. Otheriwse you had bettter be a recruited athlete, or have the combination of legacy and early-decision application.
28
When I was a second or third year grad student at Columbia, my father calls me from his home in Missouri sounding excited, 'Annie!' he says, 'I told my coworker that you are at a grad school at Columbia and he told me that it's in the same class as Harvard, Ivy League something!'.
Ivy League obsession certainly only belongs to a small minority of elite Americans.
Ivy League obsession certainly only belongs to a small minority of elite Americans.
6
For too long there has been overwhelming pressure in this country for people at every age to overwork. I see the effect of this on young schoolchildren overburdened with extracurriculars and hours of homework; on teenagers furiously trying to get into the best colleges; on young adults working like mad when they are at college/ graduate school and during their "summer breaks" to get ahead; and in the adult workforce, where many of my relatives are paid by salary rather than by the hour so that bosses can dump unrealistic amounts of work on them without paying for the inevitable overtime.
In such a work environment, "success" takes a heavy toll on families' emotional lives and on individuals' mental health. If the economy weren't so bad would we all be under less pressure? Or is this pressure cooker just the zeitgeist of our (American) age?
In such a work environment, "success" takes a heavy toll on families' emotional lives and on individuals' mental health. If the economy weren't so bad would we all be under less pressure? Or is this pressure cooker just the zeitgeist of our (American) age?
5
I appreciate very much what you say but I have a caveat: you are still too focused on those "special snowflake" accomplishments. And the funny thing is that the two people you focused on both got jobs in organizations that I personally roll my eyes at. The first one got a job straight out of college for a big consulting company--one of the greatest scams in the business world: the idea that you hire people who have zero experience and farm them out to tell businesses for enormous amounts of money how to fire more employees. From that you get Mr. 47%, the callous Mitt Romney. Then you have the young woman who was hired though Teach for America. Maybe you haven't noticed the latest research on both TFA and charter schools. They do no better than conventionally trained teachers and conventional public schools. With either one you are still using those East Coast metrics to define success.
Here's what I admire and consider success: the child who goes to college and comes out to a career that makes the world a better place. Who might those be? Here's who I think of: the business student who starts a business that pays a living wage to all its employees, provides health care and other benefits; the teacher who is in it for the long term--the one whose students are legion and who are remembered as the person who was influential in their lives for years afterward. Those are the ones worth having--those who start and end their lives with their values intact.
Here's what I admire and consider success: the child who goes to college and comes out to a career that makes the world a better place. Who might those be? Here's who I think of: the business student who starts a business that pays a living wage to all its employees, provides health care and other benefits; the teacher who is in it for the long term--the one whose students are legion and who are remembered as the person who was influential in their lives for years afterward. Those are the ones worth having--those who start and end their lives with their values intact.
728
I am a retired high school teacher and I am also concerned about the career choices of these bright young people. It is beyond belief that new college graduates, with no experience or real training would be "at the helm" of a school. My guess is that she'll burn out and move on in a few years, the school just being a stepping-stone, something to look good on her resume. What kind of modeling is this for economically disadvantaged students: you're just a hobby until I find something better.
As celidith said, "the teacher who is in it for the long term--the one whose students are legion and who are remembered as the person who was influential in their lives for years afterward. Those are the ones worth having--those who start and end their lives with their values intact."
As celidith said, "the teacher who is in it for the long term--the one whose students are legion and who are remembered as the person who was influential in their lives for years afterward. Those are the ones worth having--those who start and end their lives with their values intact."
4
Mitt Romney is a fine and generous man. Shame on you for calling him callous.
I agree 100% on the consulting scam and TFA. The idea that a recent college graduate is a fit teacher to low income children demonstrates ignorance of the nature and demands of teaching and of the needs of these children.
However, your list of worthwhile jobs is too short. Any person who does work that uses his or her abilities and directly benefits society more than it benefits him or herself is doing worthwhile work.
However, your list of worthwhile jobs is too short. Any person who does work that uses his or her abilities and directly benefits society more than it benefits him or herself is doing worthwhile work.
6
How true! Many students from the Main Line in Phila are so steered by their college counselors to believe that they need to attend an Ivy or they might as well hang it up. The parents participate in the whole madness by basing THEIR worth on their children's college acceptances.
What we told our children was that there were 100 colleges in the US where they could get in and be happy.
The Ivy league tends to have a skewed version of reality and the kids there are cookie cutter boring. They don't accept kids who have taken risks, or been slightly outside the lines. They don't even have an interest in the kid who is good at history and not math. Well rounded with a varsity sport is all they see.
Luckily there are places where kids can excel that are not prestigious schools. What really matters is not where you go but what you do there. All A's from just about any school will get them where they want to go. Small schools can be freeing and filled with interesting things to do and study, and probably have better teaching anyway.
What we told our children was that there were 100 colleges in the US where they could get in and be happy.
The Ivy league tends to have a skewed version of reality and the kids there are cookie cutter boring. They don't accept kids who have taken risks, or been slightly outside the lines. They don't even have an interest in the kid who is good at history and not math. Well rounded with a varsity sport is all they see.
Luckily there are places where kids can excel that are not prestigious schools. What really matters is not where you go but what you do there. All A's from just about any school will get them where they want to go. Small schools can be freeing and filled with interesting things to do and study, and probably have better teaching anyway.
1
Bruni lashes out at the ridiculous investment in the ivies and their comparands. Yes his counterfactual is that grads from lesser colleges also go onto greatness: they become the CEOs of fortune 500 companies and they too go to HBS. To insist that going to an elite college or university doesn't matter because you can still come out as top rat in the race to worldly/corporate/high-profile success race is only to kick the can down (or up) one more step. The point should be that the name doesn't matter BECAUSE what matters is the quality of education you receive, moral/human quality of person you become, and the GOOD you go on to do.
3
My hat is off to Mr Bruni and to Matt's parents! We've recently been through this process with our boys and have helped many others through this arduous process. We got some excellent advice early on in the process to look for the best school for our boys to thrive in, not necessarily the best school they could get into.
1
Living in Japan in the 1970s, I saw their fanatical college admissions frenzy as students devoted their teenage years to studying for impossibly difficult and obscure entrance exams.
I was a research student at one of the universities that Japanese students struggle to get into, and everyone knew that once you were admitted, university life was a four-year vacation. It certainly was true at my university. A department secretary told me that the other students thought I was "intense" because I spent half the day every day in the departmental library.
When I read about Americans half killing themselves to get into a prestigious college, I just have to shake my head. I graduated from an undergraduate college that few outside my faith community of origin have ever heard of, and yet I went on to earn a Ph. D. from an Ivy League university.
Frankly, I could not have survived an Ivy League undergraduate program. For non-academic reasons, I needed a small, intimate community where the professors considered it their duty to nurture and mentor individuals. Those four years made me strong enough to survive an Ivy graduate program.
Parents: your ambition and pride may not match your child's needs. I am glad that I lived in an environment where many of my high school classmates went to college but none even thought of trying for a prestigious undergraduate school.
Getting into the appropriate college is more important than getting into a prestigious one.
I was a research student at one of the universities that Japanese students struggle to get into, and everyone knew that once you were admitted, university life was a four-year vacation. It certainly was true at my university. A department secretary told me that the other students thought I was "intense" because I spent half the day every day in the departmental library.
When I read about Americans half killing themselves to get into a prestigious college, I just have to shake my head. I graduated from an undergraduate college that few outside my faith community of origin have ever heard of, and yet I went on to earn a Ph. D. from an Ivy League university.
Frankly, I could not have survived an Ivy League undergraduate program. For non-academic reasons, I needed a small, intimate community where the professors considered it their duty to nurture and mentor individuals. Those four years made me strong enough to survive an Ivy graduate program.
Parents: your ambition and pride may not match your child's needs. I am glad that I lived in an environment where many of my high school classmates went to college but none even thought of trying for a prestigious undergraduate school.
Getting into the appropriate college is more important than getting into a prestigious one.
1
Where you go to college matters not nearly as much (if at all) as what you do wherever you go! Apply to schools and enroll at the college that is the "best" fit for you, and not "best" for Forbes, U.S. News, or Princeton Review. Take advantage of opportunities, on campus and in the college community, and you will thrive.
You will get in to a great school. You will have an experience unrivaled by almost any other in your life. You will get a good job, have a successful career, and find that, yes, your alma mater, be it Birmingham or Binghamton, University of Pennsylvania or College of the Ozarks, has given you a Return on Investment that is greater than you ever could have imagined.
Excelsior!
You will get in to a great school. You will have an experience unrivaled by almost any other in your life. You will get a good job, have a successful career, and find that, yes, your alma mater, be it Birmingham or Binghamton, University of Pennsylvania or College of the Ozarks, has given you a Return on Investment that is greater than you ever could have imagined.
Excelsior!
Great opinion piece, thank you. My daughter is taking her SAT tomorrow, and we are starting the application process for colleges. I feel good knowing that I share this world view, and also know working professionally in Human Resources, that successful people come from a cross section of colleges. I am pleased to see such a piece here.
39
Fantastic insight, Fantastic column.
Brought tears to my eyes.
Thank you.
Brought tears to my eyes.
Thank you.
1
Frank, thanks for this wonderful column. I am so glad we are done with the admissions process--it was harrowing and has become even worse in the last decade. Having put three kids through college over a 20 year period, we saw so clearly that kids mature at different rates (not everyone has to be a world beater at 17 to succeed), that more than one college is right for each child, and that there is no justification for accumulating mountains of debt to get a BA. We couldn't afford to send our kids to the schools we went to, but they have all done well and graduated with almost no undergraduate debt, which has allowed them to pursue options after college they wouldn't have been able to if they were buried by debt. The cost structure for college has created a two or three tiered system and the elitism that goes with it. I'm not sorry my kids missed it.
66
While I agree with much of what Mr. Bruni has to say, I think that he misses the *reason* for today's obsession with prestigious universities.
We live in an age of grinding economic uncertainty, where smart, competent people can find themselves unemployable. Not everyone's child is cut out to be a CEO -- most are going to be in the middle of the pack (some of course closer to the top than others).
Of course getting a bachelor's degree from Harvard or Yale isn't a guarantee of success. But for many parents, such a degree represents some insurance (however illusory) against utter failure.
We live in an age of grinding economic uncertainty, where smart, competent people can find themselves unemployable. Not everyone's child is cut out to be a CEO -- most are going to be in the middle of the pack (some of course closer to the top than others).
Of course getting a bachelor's degree from Harvard or Yale isn't a guarantee of success. But for many parents, such a degree represents some insurance (however illusory) against utter failure.
4
I've also noticed that the most successful executives at the companies I work with as a consultant come by and large from state universities. This is true of both younger and older execs. However, since we're all compelled in these comments sessions to find at least one shortcoming in an article, here's mine: The writer advocates taking a step back from the insanity of Ivy League acceptance yet seems to have bought into the current insanity of measuring success only by one's status as a CEO or a high-tech entrepreneur. Please let's not forget that success in business and the traditional professions is not even the ambition of a great many students. Literature, music, film, academia, government, nursing, environmental stewardship, and countless other fields offer rewards far more valuable to many of us.
6
I'm not sure why the NYT prints articles like this every year. It seems they are trying to reassure their neurotic readers, who define themselves by where their kids go to school.
Of course, many such readers rail against classism.
Of course, many such readers rail against classism.
3
The madness is so clearly a case where what started as a good idea - that a good education is a good thing - spun out of control. After teaching high school for 30 years, I have been waiting for a half dozen years to see the pendulum of history swing back to a saner perspective regarding brand-name colleges. -It ain't happened yet, and with mounting mental health issues and suicides, I have to wonder what it will take to bring the culture back to a more balanced understanding.
Your essay included this observation:
"...a majority (of American families) are focused on making sure that their kids simply attend a decent college — any decent college — and on finding a way to help them pay for it."
Sorry to burst your bubble and the bubble of many readers, but roughly 40% of 18 to 24 year olds are NOT in college… which is a reflection of another reality: many parents disengage from their child's school experience and, thus, are NOT focused on getting their youngster through HS let alone into HS. Engaged students come from the homes of engaged parents… and if we are really serious about improving education in our country we need to find ways to keep parents engaged in the lives of their children. To do so we might need to pay all parents a decent wage, give them and their children medical care, schedule their work at predictable hours, make sure they get sick leave if their child is ill, and schedule teacher conferences at a time that is convenient for them.
"...a majority (of American families) are focused on making sure that their kids simply attend a decent college — any decent college — and on finding a way to help them pay for it."
Sorry to burst your bubble and the bubble of many readers, but roughly 40% of 18 to 24 year olds are NOT in college… which is a reflection of another reality: many parents disengage from their child's school experience and, thus, are NOT focused on getting their youngster through HS let alone into HS. Engaged students come from the homes of engaged parents… and if we are really serious about improving education in our country we need to find ways to keep parents engaged in the lives of their children. To do so we might need to pay all parents a decent wage, give them and their children medical care, schedule their work at predictable hours, make sure they get sick leave if their child is ill, and schedule teacher conferences at a time that is convenient for them.
5
This is a great article. When I worked in advertising I witnessed this phenomenon all the time - the agencies were filled with people from Ivies, high-end liberal arts colleges, state schools, and no-name schools I'd never heard of. One of my best Creative Directors even had no college degree at all (and yes, this is in New York in the 2000s). I also have several lawyer friends who went to local NY law schools - 2 went to schools I had never even heard of - and now have thriving law careers. One went a SUNY undergrad then Hostra law and is now on the partner track at a corporate law firm pulling down over half a million a year. And these are all people in their early 30s - I'm not talking about some bygone era. So my conclusion has always been that it doesn't really matter where you go as long as it allows you to thrive.
99
I don't know much about advertising. But regarding law, your post may be accurate but it is deceptive. Certainly there are lawyers that graduate each year from mid-tier and lower tier law firms. And without a doubt, these graduates get jobs as lawyers. But there are many types of law and law firms. I recognize that this sounds elitist, but it is best that students and families have the facts at their disposal. There are lawyers who work as sole practitioners in the suburbs working on the title work for buying a house. I am sure that many of them earn a nice living.
But just to take a counter-example, look at the law schools attended by the top law firms in NY such as White and Case or Sullivan and Cromwell. Just as an example, I used the links below for Sullivan and Cromwell and found that 133 of their lawyers attended Harvard Law School. I then pulled up Rutgers Law School. Only 1 lawyer attended Rutgers Law School.
You can make all kinds of arguments that one doesn't need to work at a top law firm and that you can make a very good living being a residential title lawyer or a malpractice litigator. All that is true. But working at the top law firms pretty much requires that you attend a certain set of schools.
http://www.sullcrom.com/lawyers
http://www.whitecase.com/attorneys/#.VQNObfmECoo
But just to take a counter-example, look at the law schools attended by the top law firms in NY such as White and Case or Sullivan and Cromwell. Just as an example, I used the links below for Sullivan and Cromwell and found that 133 of their lawyers attended Harvard Law School. I then pulled up Rutgers Law School. Only 1 lawyer attended Rutgers Law School.
You can make all kinds of arguments that one doesn't need to work at a top law firm and that you can make a very good living being a residential title lawyer or a malpractice litigator. All that is true. But working at the top law firms pretty much requires that you attend a certain set of schools.
http://www.sullcrom.com/lawyers
http://www.whitecase.com/attorneys/#.VQNObfmECoo
2
I am a Princeton alumnus and have been interviewing candidates, each year, before they are selected for that 'august' University. I have found that each candidate has been tops in his/her class, and WORTHY of Princeton. Just to prepare them for possible 'bad' news, I inform them that over 27, 000 candidates have applied, but only 1500 will be accepted. Ergo, the task of the Admissions office is daunting and imperfect. Then I add the following note of encouragement (without disparaging the value of Ivy League schools):
1-Ivy league schools cannot claim anymore to be the only top schools in the US. Many schools that were considered so-so in the past, now rank equal to, if not better than Ivy League schools in many academic departments, and can be more affordable, financially.
2-Their qualifications are such that they will succeed in life 'whatever' school they end up attending.
3-Experience tells us that after a decade or so, of a successful career, one does not care what school they have attended...it has been forgotten by what they have already accomplished (as mentioned in the Bruni article).
4-What is important, is their own self-esteem, their own self-image of who they are, and what they can do, as already demonstrated by their top qualifications.
I notice a true sigh of relief from my interviewees...
1-Ivy league schools cannot claim anymore to be the only top schools in the US. Many schools that were considered so-so in the past, now rank equal to, if not better than Ivy League schools in many academic departments, and can be more affordable, financially.
2-Their qualifications are such that they will succeed in life 'whatever' school they end up attending.
3-Experience tells us that after a decade or so, of a successful career, one does not care what school they have attended...it has been forgotten by what they have already accomplished (as mentioned in the Bruni article).
4-What is important, is their own self-esteem, their own self-image of who they are, and what they can do, as already demonstrated by their top qualifications.
I notice a true sigh of relief from my interviewees...
1
You have been representing our alma mater well! I did candidate interviews one year, and didn't really know what to do or say--I was teaching at a new state university here and thought we were doing a pretty good job. But somehow I didn't think to say the wise things you bring up.
As the character of the devil said in the original version of the film Bedazzled, "There was a time when I used to get lots of ideas... I thought up the Seven Deadly Sins in one afternoon. The only thing I've come up with recently is advertising "
1
Would you like to hear some good news? In the last few years, in my college counseling biz, I've noticed a sizable shift in attitude about where high-achieving seniors "should" apply. Cost has always been a concern to families but now, with the tremendous pushback and publicity about student loan debt, parents and students are asking how to shave dollars off of the cost of attendance. There is a reason that over 40% of college bound students in my school district are heading to the community colleges: $64 per credit hour vs Yale's $2500 per credit hour. And yes, it's the really good students who are now questioning the value of a $60,000 education. #motivation trumps #rankings
156
Interesting. Opinions are shifting back to when I was in college, that what you put into college matters a lot more than which one is attended. During the Golden Era when our country supported mass college education, determined to be the country that out-educated all others, my dad became the first in his family to attend college. He went to San Jose, and the transferred to Berkeley because it was a name institution, particularly for electrical engineering students. He said San Jose was the better school. When he got his first job post college job, and went for his Master's degree at NYU, he found he had a lot of catching up to do because Berkeley, incredibly was behind the times (1950s).
You raise a fair point that cost is a factor. But I simply wouldn't compare Yale to a community college for a couple of reasons. First, the opportunities that a student would be provided at Yale (or a school like it) are simply "night and day" different from those available to a student at a community college. This may sound elitist but it is simply true. Second, Harvard, Princeton and Yale are simply on a different scale as far as financial aid is concerned and are regularly listed not only as the top schools in U.S. news and World Report but also as the best values (which takes into account cost). Their endowments are so large that they can afford to be very generous. As an example, Harvard has a policy that anyone who is accepted and whose family earns less than $60,000 pays nothing. Even if you earn up to $200,000, your tuition (less financial aid) will be no more than 10% of your income.
My daughter attends one of these very generous schools and we pay less than if she attended the State school. Outside of these 3 anomalies, I found that most schools are quite similar both in sticker price and in the net price after financial aid. College certainly isn't cheap. But my experience at least suggested that cost was not the determining factor that made one school that much more attractive than another - again with the significant exception of State schools and Harvard, Yale and Princeton who are especially generous.
My daughter attends one of these very generous schools and we pay less than if she attended the State school. Outside of these 3 anomalies, I found that most schools are quite similar both in sticker price and in the net price after financial aid. College certainly isn't cheap. But my experience at least suggested that cost was not the determining factor that made one school that much more attractive than another - again with the significant exception of State schools and Harvard, Yale and Princeton who are especially generous.
1
Try $60,000 a year!,totaling $200,000 for a degree at MOST private schools today. I am sickened by the sticker price of these schools. Sure private schools offer merit money, but even $30,000 a year is A LOT of money for a degree, when most parents did NOT pay that for their whole degree.
1
Both my parents, my older sister and the majority of my cousins went to Harvard while I went to Rutgers. It wasn't where I wanted to be because New Brunswick back then was a slum but the education and recognition I received were life changing. I took classes with professors who'd received Nobel prizes, I acted, wrote, did a year in Dublin and found myself surrounded by brilliant and wonderful people. I do coach college essays but I encourage my clients to find their voices and dreams and not to attempt to fit any sort of mold. Their parents ask for help because their kid doesn't want them to help them and sometimes teachers are just too overworked to be supportive. I was a high school English teacher for years and I would never write an essay for a student nor do I encourage them to sound like anything other than themselves. Great piece.
1
The one great consolation that I find in being an octogenarian is that I do not have to be young in this frantic world. Had I been born a couple of generations later, I most likely would have been denied my Ivy degrees and the stable long-term corporate career that followed -- free of student debt. Of course, I also would have missed the draft and the resented army service that occurred between college and that corporate career. Most of us survived that, however.
This is an excellent article; however, for some students attending an elite university provides a unique, positive experience that serves them very well in their post-college lives. From the age of fifteen, my nephew was obsessed with going to Stanford. Because of the expense, his family attempted to persuade him to go to another elite school (Princeton) that was offering considerable financial aid, but he would not consider any alternative to Stanford.
Stanford was difficult for him - the competition was intense, but he learned how to persevere, how to push forward after not doing as well he had hoped, and how to overcome a series of set backs. He now lives and works in Japan, where the character traits he developed at Stanford have helped him start his own company while working at a large investment bank. He probably would have done well had he not gone to Stanford, but we cannot know the answer to that question.
Stanford was difficult for him - the competition was intense, but he learned how to persevere, how to push forward after not doing as well he had hoped, and how to overcome a series of set backs. He now lives and works in Japan, where the character traits he developed at Stanford have helped him start his own company while working at a large investment bank. He probably would have done well had he not gone to Stanford, but we cannot know the answer to that question.
46
Just what the country needs--more Stanford investment bankers. I teach at an elite private school and it always saddens me to see bright kids aim for Stanford and the Ivys so they can get that passport to Wall St.
4
Attending an elite university or college provides a "unique" positive experience for a great many of the students who go to them. They are elite for a reason: they spend a great deal of money on their students, facilities, and faculty. The point of the article is that not everyone can go to one, and that so much importance shouldn't be placed on getting into one. Very, very few people gain access to the kind of subsequent, elite training at an investment bank, and then get to go on to financial success in a glamorously international manner. Good for your nephew, but what about the equally perseverant and talented student who wasn't accepted by Stanford et al? That's the point here.
1
@Fred P
"Because of the expense, his family attempted to persuade him to go to another elite school (Princeton) that was offering considerable financial aid, but he would not consider any alternative to Stanford."
WOW! If your nephew was able to persevere in convincing his parents to shell out the money for a Stanford education when he was being offered "considerable financial aid" at an arguably comparable institution, what else could Stanford have to teach him about how to persevere (or persuade?) and what can this tale tell us about the sense of entitlement that seems endemic among millennials and their doting, hovering parents?
"Because of the expense, his family attempted to persuade him to go to another elite school (Princeton) that was offering considerable financial aid, but he would not consider any alternative to Stanford."
WOW! If your nephew was able to persevere in convincing his parents to shell out the money for a Stanford education when he was being offered "considerable financial aid" at an arguably comparable institution, what else could Stanford have to teach him about how to persevere (or persuade?) and what can this tale tell us about the sense of entitlement that seems endemic among millennials and their doting, hovering parents?
1
Thank you for pointing out that college is only a stepping stone on a way to much more important places. It truly is sad if the only goal is just to get through the gates. So much more will be out there for those who really take advantage of the education any school has to offer.
Hate to break the news to you - but getting into an in-demand engineering program at "public" Waterloo is similar to seeking acceptance at an Ivy - except that they fail out more folks than an Ivy during the four years.
40
Thank you for this op-ed. I completely agree with this viewpoint, and yet I am having trouble convincing my angst-ridden 16yr old girl to relax about admissions. Meanwhile, my gifted ADD son may be fortunate to attend our local university due to his academic struggles. Am I confident that my twins will be purposeful citizens of the world whether or not they attend an elite school?
ABSOLUTELY.
And yes, I have seen many parents who live for their kids acceptance to an Ivy League.
May I say, "phooey" on that..
ABSOLUTELY.
And yes, I have seen many parents who live for their kids acceptance to an Ivy League.
May I say, "phooey" on that..
2
A great column offering a common-sense reassessment of the annual madness. For some reason, parents who did very well indeed with degrees from Nebraska or UConn or The University of Wherever have decided their children's lives will be worthless unless they get into Glitter University.
As a modest first step toward sanity, maybe we should stop selling the decals parents put in their car windows...?
As a modest first step toward sanity, maybe we should stop selling the decals parents put in their car windows...?
6
The Peter Hart example illustrates the "mismatch" argument without dragging in the complicating issues of race.
I hardly ever agree with this columnist, but this morning I do so completely. This whole phenomenon consumes my attention as my grandsons reach the age where college decisions become paramount - at least to parents. I have seen children in Middle School sweating grades, fearing that a C on an exam or paper would render them unable to attend some East Coast elite college.
This is utter nonsense, as the writer says. One of the more important parts of the article is his checking to see the educational backgrounds of corporate chiefs and huge successes by acclamation: very few if any came by way of Harvard or Yale or Ivy League schools. There is a reason for that.
Elite schools are about riding the coat tails of wealth and influence, and being defined by your privileges, not your ability. If you want to be successful in politics, Harvard is your school. But it won't come because of what you were taught there. I can get better at the University of Illinois. It will come to you because you are wealth or an elitist child that is doted upon by his/her doting parents wanting to enhance their social standing.
It is what we used to call, back in the 1960s, the "rat race." And it has brought our nation nigh unto utter destruction, morally and socially speaking.
Do us all a favor, including yourself. Go to your local colleges and universities, work very hard on your education, succeed in whatever vocation you choose and save nearly a million dollars.
This is utter nonsense, as the writer says. One of the more important parts of the article is his checking to see the educational backgrounds of corporate chiefs and huge successes by acclamation: very few if any came by way of Harvard or Yale or Ivy League schools. There is a reason for that.
Elite schools are about riding the coat tails of wealth and influence, and being defined by your privileges, not your ability. If you want to be successful in politics, Harvard is your school. But it won't come because of what you were taught there. I can get better at the University of Illinois. It will come to you because you are wealth or an elitist child that is doted upon by his/her doting parents wanting to enhance their social standing.
It is what we used to call, back in the 1960s, the "rat race." And it has brought our nation nigh unto utter destruction, morally and socially speaking.
Do us all a favor, including yourself. Go to your local colleges and universities, work very hard on your education, succeed in whatever vocation you choose and save nearly a million dollars.
2
"Here we go again."
Really? Who is "we"? Probably at least 90% of Americans don't care about sending their children to 'elite' colleges. Only in very elite schools is there this mad rush. Most schools - I speak as both a teacher & a parent - have students who are proud just to get into college & afford it. For many kids, community college is the only viable route, & they work their way through. Yes, very elite colleges will pay if you are high need, but many are no longer need-blind or will not meet need unless your need is extremely high.
What most of us are panicked about - what we're worrying about 'surviving'- is how to pay without going under.This is a national crisis as we take out parent loans, mortgage what remains of our houses, have our kids take out loans, borrow against retirement.
The increasing divide between the upper 5% & the rest of us is so great that the upper 5% seem oblivious to even the existence of the rest of us. Articles like these are written in which 95% of us are simply invisible, or else a passing reference is made to us like an afterthought.
Then we have to read endless articles extolling unscientific standardized testing & uniform factory teaching - "common core" - for the masses, that also is not applied to these same students, who are treated as individual, unique, creative.
I fear for our nation, which is supposed to be based on a democracy.
Really? Who is "we"? Probably at least 90% of Americans don't care about sending their children to 'elite' colleges. Only in very elite schools is there this mad rush. Most schools - I speak as both a teacher & a parent - have students who are proud just to get into college & afford it. For many kids, community college is the only viable route, & they work their way through. Yes, very elite colleges will pay if you are high need, but many are no longer need-blind or will not meet need unless your need is extremely high.
What most of us are panicked about - what we're worrying about 'surviving'- is how to pay without going under.This is a national crisis as we take out parent loans, mortgage what remains of our houses, have our kids take out loans, borrow against retirement.
The increasing divide between the upper 5% & the rest of us is so great that the upper 5% seem oblivious to even the existence of the rest of us. Articles like these are written in which 95% of us are simply invisible, or else a passing reference is made to us like an afterthought.
Then we have to read endless articles extolling unscientific standardized testing & uniform factory teaching - "common core" - for the masses, that also is not applied to these same students, who are treated as individual, unique, creative.
I fear for our nation, which is supposed to be based on a democracy.
8
It's nice that you can find individuals who overcome rejection to elite colleges and do quite well. Talented people come from all over. But it's also telling that a statistical argument is not employed.
2
"Contemporary America’s exaltation of brands." This a thousand times!!! So many of the kids ground up and spit out by the ivy admissions process were drawn to those schools by branding and marketing, with little consideration of how well they personally fit with the school, much less their chances of getting in.
Clearly, entrance into highly selective colleges and universities is not about getting a good education. One can get an excellent education at many schools. Entrance into a highly selective educational institution is more about securing the benefits and privileges of elite status. And while there are exceptions to this rule, it is no coincidence that our nations growing income equality during the past 50 years has been accompanied by this growing competitive frenzy for admission into of our most selective colleges and universities. Connect the dots.
3
As a college counselor, this is a message my colleagues and I try to communicate every day. Parents of younger children reading this article should take it to heart and preach the message to their kids, before they and their kids already have the fixed belief that elites are the only route to success. By the time they are in the application process, it is too late--the only way they can learn is by failure. My only concern about the article is that both Pitzer (admit rate 13%) and Scripps (admit rate 27%) could certainly be considered elites.
63
Yes, I was going to make the same point that the students that Bruni picked as examples certainly ended up attending some quote competitive schools as "safety schools". The other student attended Lehigh which is also quite competitive.
Having said all this, I trust that as a college counselor seeking to assuage the stress of your students, you don't lead them so much towards acquiesence that they end up falling off the other side of the horse. While preparing for a career is not the only reason to attend college, certain professions such as consulting, wall street, medicine and law recruit to a far greater extent from these elite schools than from less competitive schools. Readers may disparate this choice and defend State schools or other schools as excellent providers of education. And the may be right. But this "paved path" for students attending elite schools towards these professions cannot be ignored.
My daughter is a senior at one of these elite schools and the caliber of companies which recruit from her school is simply different from those which recruited from the University of Maryland where I attended. There are certainly other professions and other considerations. But families entering this process of choosing the right school for their child should be aware of these facts.
Having said all this, I trust that as a college counselor seeking to assuage the stress of your students, you don't lead them so much towards acquiesence that they end up falling off the other side of the horse. While preparing for a career is not the only reason to attend college, certain professions such as consulting, wall street, medicine and law recruit to a far greater extent from these elite schools than from less competitive schools. Readers may disparate this choice and defend State schools or other schools as excellent providers of education. And the may be right. But this "paved path" for students attending elite schools towards these professions cannot be ignored.
My daughter is a senior at one of these elite schools and the caliber of companies which recruit from her school is simply different from those which recruited from the University of Maryland where I attended. There are certainly other professions and other considerations. But families entering this process of choosing the right school for their child should be aware of these facts.
2
You are a heck of a good writer, Mr. Bruni. And right on the mark to boot.
Great piece and it does not have to be this way.
Just a quick note from someone who used to teach high school and now lives in Canada with a wonderful daughter who has just applied to university.
My daughter applied to the top schools in Canada. The applications took less than 30 minutes to complete. Universities only consider students top 6 grades from their academic courses. That is it. No tests, no extra-curricular activities, no essays.
The best system? But much less stressful.
Just a quick note from someone who used to teach high school and now lives in Canada with a wonderful daughter who has just applied to university.
My daughter applied to the top schools in Canada. The applications took less than 30 minutes to complete. Universities only consider students top 6 grades from their academic courses. That is it. No tests, no extra-curricular activities, no essays.
The best system? But much less stressful.
4
I just retired after 40 years in college admissions -- from small liberal arts colleges and large Ivy universities -- where I saw kids have positive life-changing experience at "regular" colleges and waste their time (and their parents' money) at marquee name places.
It's the person, not the pedigree!
It's the person, not the pedigree!
4
IMHO it makes sense to pursue admission to the elite universities, since their huge endowments give them far more resources than the average college. The problem, then, is that the elite universities have swallowed up the lion's share of money destined for higher education. Gifts to universities should not be tax-free, and elite universities need to be taxed. The money freed up should then be earmarked for others in higher education. If you want less inequality, you need to spread the wealth.
1
Yes, indeed. At the state university at which I teach, we were "value engineering" a modest science building the same year that my alma mater, Princeton, was opening an new football stadium that cost four times as much. I am a regular participant in Princeton's Annual Giving, but I skipped that year.
I will add myself as a case in point. I did not excel in high school (mostly because I just didn't care about academics at that point and was more interested in playing in rock bands). I went to an average state university, where I developed a passion for the humanities and performed very well. I then attended a very good state university for graduate school to pursue a doctorate. I am now on the faculty of an elite university. The irony is not lost on me that I am teaching students at a place that never would have admitted me as a student. And may that irony liberate some young people from the obsession with getting admitted to elite schools.
570
Dear AWS: During my first semester at the most elite of the elite colleges some 50 odd years ago, I noticed that most of my instruction was coming from *section men* who were graduate students from colleges quite *inferior* to my elite one. I also noticed that they did not think as well as I did and in more than one occasion did not know as much. As soon as I could, I never enrolled in another class with a *section* taught by graduate students and took only classes taught by the *names*. It was a wise and wonderful decision because now in my 9th decade of life I still am interested in the problems these marvelous men presented to me.
Perhaps today the instruction at state universities is on a par with that offered by the *elite*, but in my day, at the state universities they read the text books written by the men who taught me. However, today's students appear to be far less interested in intellectual problems than they are in socialization and extra curricular activities.
Perhaps today the instruction at state universities is on a par with that offered by the *elite*, but in my day, at the state universities they read the text books written by the men who taught me. However, today's students appear to be far less interested in intellectual problems than they are in socialization and extra curricular activities.
4
You raise a fair point. I must say that I am not very familiar with the competitiveness of a career in academics. However, there are other careers where the choice of school significantly determines whether and how you will gain entry. The author himself made this point, "And he finagled a way, off campus, to interview with several of the top-drawer consulting firms that trawled for recruits at the Ivies but often bypassed schools like Indiana."
Certain industries like consulting, wall street, law and medicine recruit to far more from certain select schools than from others. Readers may retort that there is far more to college than career preparation and that there are many other worthwhile industries than the ones listed. Both are certainly true. But if you do want to work in these very competitive schools, you are simply far more likely to have an opportunity to do so if you attend these elite schools.
Certain industries like consulting, wall street, law and medicine recruit to far more from certain select schools than from others. Readers may retort that there is far more to college than career preparation and that there are many other worthwhile industries than the ones listed. Both are certainly true. But if you do want to work in these very competitive schools, you are simply far more likely to have an opportunity to do so if you attend these elite schools.
2
Stories like these, including my own, are quite common. And more people are rejected from the elite schools than accepted, so they must deal with it pretty well in the end. So I don't really understand the intense interest in this subject. Why should the rest of us get so concerned about the small fraction of American high school students who make this their primary goal? I do not like the MacMansions out in the exburbs as a place to live, but I am not going to go out of my way to discourage people from doing it.
I live in an area that is not caught up in the college frenzy. Most kids go local - within the state or neighboring states. Their goals are simple - finish school, find a career, find a partner, buy a house, raise a family and give back. In my business, 2 people are from Ivy League and they are no better than the rest of us. I didn't get into a Ivy League, in fact, the principle of my high school had to make a few calls on my behalf and my life and career have been more successful than I ever imagined. I hope everyone reads this column and takes a giant step back and realizes what college you go to only matters until you get your first job. After that, its all about what you do in your jobs.
3
This letter should be read by every parent and senior. Be patient with yourself, work hard and good things will come your way. In time, in time ....
2
As a college professor at a "safety school," I sympathize with Matt's parents and commend them for the compassion and support that they have expressed, but most students in Matt's situation are not worried about what they will become (Lehigh has as much to offer as Yale, Princeton, or Brown) or how their parents feel, but how they are perceived by their peers.
The challenge is to overcome the social stratification obsession that already exists in high schools before it gets transferred to the colleges that particular students aspire to attend. This is a growth opportunity. For better or worse, those college acceptance letters can validate or shatter inappropriate and dysfunctional perceptions that have existed for years. The preoccupation might be broken when the student finally sets foot on a new campus and is, at least for a while, no better or no worse than any other student. If a prospective student is particularly obsessed with the social game, one can only hope that they outgrow it quickly or else they will get sucked back into in the stratification system - which is particularly fierce at many small, isolated schools - soon after they settle into college.
The challenge is to overcome the social stratification obsession that already exists in high schools before it gets transferred to the colleges that particular students aspire to attend. This is a growth opportunity. For better or worse, those college acceptance letters can validate or shatter inappropriate and dysfunctional perceptions that have existed for years. The preoccupation might be broken when the student finally sets foot on a new campus and is, at least for a while, no better or no worse than any other student. If a prospective student is particularly obsessed with the social game, one can only hope that they outgrow it quickly or else they will get sucked back into in the stratification system - which is particularly fierce at many small, isolated schools - soon after they settle into college.
14
Absolutely. Take a look at the undergraduate diploma's of Apple's CEO and Senior VPs: There's Duke and Berkeley, but the CEO is from Auburn and the other US colleges attended are Ball State, UMass Amherst, Boston College, George Washington, and NC State.
And famously of course, Apple's founder and later, rescuer was a drop out. (Though I wouldn't recommend that to my kids.)
And famously of course, Apple's founder and later, rescuer was a drop out. (Though I wouldn't recommend that to my kids.)
My daughter and one of her friends are very different people who chose very different schools. One thing they have in common though is that they both aimed for and chose the schools that were best for them. And they both got comments about not having chosen to apply or go to the "best" or most "prestigious" schools. I admire both of these young women for having a strong enough sense of themselves to not be swayed by others' perceptions of what constitutes the best school. They are each receiving an outstanding education, and have taken advantage of opportunities that were beyond their imagining when they set out as freshmen almost three years ago. They ignored the noise and chose wisely. When people ask me for advice on the college search process, I always say ignore rankings and branding. The best school is the one that is best for your child.
112
An absolutely brilliant, essential piece. The letter at the end brought me to tears -- these parents know what it's all about, and their son will be forever grateful for their wisdom and compassion. This column is one of the best advice columns re: higher education that I've read in my 40 years in this educational sector. Bravo!
2
And where can one see Ivy league obsession most vividly? The pages of this newspaper?
50
And in the justices who are on SCOTUS, our elected officials, especially those in DC who are in the GOP. The ones who rail the most against elite schools seem to have gone there for their undergrad or graduate educations.
5
Over 21% of Fortune 100 CEO's are Harvard grads and usually over 40% are Ivy Grads.
Success breeds Focus.
Success breeds Focus.
3
A friend who has an endowed chair at one of the Ives sent his children to an ivy, a near-ivy and Earlham College in Indiana. When asked, he will tell you that Earlham provided the best education. There are hundreds of wonderful schools in ths country many,like Earlham, in the Mid-West. In their quest to find "only the best" for their children, many parents lose sight of the real purpose of education
3
Every kid talked to and the one school official consulted were at extraordinarily wealthy high schools. Whatever you learn from them, is not necessarily transferable to real people.
4
Great article. I've been a professor at schools of very different profile and prestige, and I can affirm what is often said -- that the correlation of prestige with depth of learning experiences is very poor. (And my trajectory is "upward", so this isn't sour grapes.)
Two pieces of advice for prospective students:
Look for a school where faculty spend time with undergraduates and develop real relationships with them.
Look for a school where students don't see admission as the end, nor do they see the degree as a means to climbing the career ladder. Rather, transformative learning experiences are what they're focused on. As Bruni says, a place where students see the college as “a land to be inhabited and tilled for all that it’s worth.”
How can you tell? Ask them. Why did they choose that school? If they're glad they're there, why? What do they value about the education they're getting? The answers they give to these questions will tell you more than US News ever will.
Two pieces of advice for prospective students:
Look for a school where faculty spend time with undergraduates and develop real relationships with them.
Look for a school where students don't see admission as the end, nor do they see the degree as a means to climbing the career ladder. Rather, transformative learning experiences are what they're focused on. As Bruni says, a place where students see the college as “a land to be inhabited and tilled for all that it’s worth.”
How can you tell? Ask them. Why did they choose that school? If they're glad they're there, why? What do they value about the education they're getting? The answers they give to these questions will tell you more than US News ever will.
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Thank you Mr.Bruni, for a very insightful and timely perspective. All schools should share this article with their graduating seniors and families with their kids at a time when they are on the brink of hearing back from the "lottery" colleges in the days and weeks ahead. Many a kid's life has unnecessarily suffered and sometimes lost when perspective was lost, thank you for sending hope to many kids across the nation.
Frank - thanks so much for this. We are just starting down this path (my daughter is a HS junior). I've been telling her constantly what you have so eloquently written - that a name school is unimportant. She has to find the right fit that will help her grow as a student and as a woman. I'm sending this piece to her so she can keep herself better grounded during this process.
Oh, and thanks to Matt's Mom and Dad for making me teary this morning. Oh, and I'm stealing your letter idea for next year!
Oh, and thanks to Matt's Mom and Dad for making me teary this morning. Oh, and I'm stealing your letter idea for next year!
Frank, as a mother of a senior waiting to hear from the admissions offices, this column was such a comfort. You couldn't have stated better the importance of valuing the self on the journey to higher education. Thank you for the examples and the reminder that we all define our own success.
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My high school in Philadelphia was wonderful -- its principal was called "President" and was hired away by the New Trier school mentioned by Bruni. 98% of us went on to university. Because I was neither wealthy nor a top student there in a school founded in 1834, a local school was all I could afford, even, even with a small stipend. I was, gulp, a commuter kid at college. Worse, I worked 20 hours a week, carried extra courses, and laughed at frat boys.
While there, I fell in love again -- a fine library, access to Princeton's collection and Penn's museums. And no social pressure, just a grand atmosphere of respect for being human, not for having "Jr." or "III" after a British surname. I hated my next university so much I left after a semester, sick of its snotty sons of sausage-makers, as Fitzgerald called them. I too a PhD at humble Penn State, working with a scholar known around the world, a top library collection in my field, and a valley so lovely, so far from urban noise that I could stroll and ponder. Two of my colleagues became famous novelists. Poets, professors, and school teachers won honors as the years passed. And the football and frats remained, but I would never be the same. Isn't that why we went to university in the first place -- not to network our ways into the White House, as certain bush-league rich kids still do? As Socrates reminds us "The unexamined life is not worth living." Hurrah for Matt's parents and Frank Bruni.
While there, I fell in love again -- a fine library, access to Princeton's collection and Penn's museums. And no social pressure, just a grand atmosphere of respect for being human, not for having "Jr." or "III" after a British surname. I hated my next university so much I left after a semester, sick of its snotty sons of sausage-makers, as Fitzgerald called them. I too a PhD at humble Penn State, working with a scholar known around the world, a top library collection in my field, and a valley so lovely, so far from urban noise that I could stroll and ponder. Two of my colleagues became famous novelists. Poets, professors, and school teachers won honors as the years passed. And the football and frats remained, but I would never be the same. Isn't that why we went to university in the first place -- not to network our ways into the White House, as certain bush-league rich kids still do? As Socrates reminds us "The unexamined life is not worth living." Hurrah for Matt's parents and Frank Bruni.
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I'd add to this by saying that in many career paths a degree from an elite institution means nothing and can, if mentioned, either prejudice people against you or create unreasonable expectations. Many times it's better to be seen as just a regular guy or gal and allow yourself to be judged on your present performance rather than the place you went to school.
Where does the phrase, "I went to school in Boston" come from after all?
Where does the phrase, "I went to school in Boston" come from after all?
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Though I strongly agree with all that you shared, I worry too about those who have grown up without advantage, and who can never imagine that they might "belong" in a place like Harvard or Yale. As research by David Yeager and others has shown, whether a student feels like they "belong" in their college community, and whether they have what Carol Dweck calls a "growth mindset" are significant predictors of whether they will ever graduate from the college that accepts them.
Students who grow up in poverty and are lucky enough to attend high quality public schools like KIPP and others, often struggle when they leave the nest. Most of them fail to graduate from college, even after making such great strides and overcoming huge obstacles to get there. Research has shown that the key to their success may lie in giving them an opportunity to develop 21st Century Skills that will enable them to navigate a new environment that may feel profoundly uncomfortable. We need to build programs that teach effective communication and self-advocacy, collaboration, problem-solving & adaptability. They need to believe in themselves, and their capacity to continue to learn, adapt, & grow.
Imagine what it must feel like for those kids...whose fate is so uncertain even after receiving that long-awaited acceptance letter. There are many roads to success, but they are not equally smooth or navigable.
I've heard it said that poor kids have plenty of resilience but not enough optimism, while priv
Students who grow up in poverty and are lucky enough to attend high quality public schools like KIPP and others, often struggle when they leave the nest. Most of them fail to graduate from college, even after making such great strides and overcoming huge obstacles to get there. Research has shown that the key to their success may lie in giving them an opportunity to develop 21st Century Skills that will enable them to navigate a new environment that may feel profoundly uncomfortable. We need to build programs that teach effective communication and self-advocacy, collaboration, problem-solving & adaptability. They need to believe in themselves, and their capacity to continue to learn, adapt, & grow.
Imagine what it must feel like for those kids...whose fate is so uncertain even after receiving that long-awaited acceptance letter. There are many roads to success, but they are not equally smooth or navigable.
I've heard it said that poor kids have plenty of resilience but not enough optimism, while priv
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Great article. And a must read for all parents who are living vicariously through their college-bound kids.
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Okay NY Times, as long as you keep publishing articles like this, I will be your loyal subscriber until I die.
The letter the parents wrote their son brought tears to my eyes- the love between the parents and their son a beautiful.
The letter the parents wrote their son brought tears to my eyes- the love between the parents and their son a beautiful.
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My daughter did well in academics and extracurriculars in high school, went to her "safety" college, and immediately found friends who were serious about academics and career. She was able to achieve academic honors and campus leadership positions that might not have been available to her if she had gone to an "elite" institution.
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I am sure your daughter is very happy and attended the right school for her. However, I would advise parents who are in a similar situation to look through the data from the career placement office of the school their child is considering attending. Of course, attending school is about far more than preparing for a career. But this is certainly one of the elements. I am curious if you would judge the types of firms that recruit from one school to be of the same caliber as the firms that recruit from the other ?
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Mr. Bruni's message is correct, that you don't need to attend an Ivy League institution to be successful - and more importantly, happy - in life. But his stories here still focus on relatively elite institutions: Scripps (36% admission rate), Lehigh (31%), and Indiana University (72% total, and likely a lot less for out-of-state students). The message would have been more thoughtful and carry more meaning if he instead had highlighted the type of institutions the vast majority of American undergraduates attend. I have not yet read his book, but I hope that it recognizes that students can still get an excellent education at hundreds of institutions that are "below" the prestige level of those he highlights in this column, and they can live happy and productive lives after graduating from those institutions.
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Great letter at the end.
There is one variable that is overlooked in this otherwise very worthy article; and that is the complex combination of motivation, attitude, confidence of the student. Finding oneself at the bottom of the class in a upper tier school (and there is always someone there) can produce varying outcomes. Some rise up, others are defeated. The odds of defeat may well be high if the student has reached, and made it there semi-accidentally (as in, s/he played the tuba, and the school's band needed a tuba player).
So, what will I tell my children? Reach your brains out despite sound arguments and evidence from Bruni and Gladwell. Because I went to mediocre schools, with mediocre, not particularly motivated faculty. I suspect it made a big difference to the trajectory of my career (started lower, fought harder).
If my child were to stretch and find herself at the bottom of her class because the average student's grade is beyond her reach, I would encourage her to alter what she can (speed of completion, cutting down extra-curricular, getting additional help) - but I would never ever ever advise her to willingly go to a lower tier school just because she would find her self in a more advantageous, more comfortable position.
If she does not make it to the reach schools, well so be it. But I would not let this well argued article to get in the way of her trying.
Kalidan
So, what will I tell my children? Reach your brains out despite sound arguments and evidence from Bruni and Gladwell. Because I went to mediocre schools, with mediocre, not particularly motivated faculty. I suspect it made a big difference to the trajectory of my career (started lower, fought harder).
If my child were to stretch and find herself at the bottom of her class because the average student's grade is beyond her reach, I would encourage her to alter what she can (speed of completion, cutting down extra-curricular, getting additional help) - but I would never ever ever advise her to willingly go to a lower tier school just because she would find her self in a more advantageous, more comfortable position.
If she does not make it to the reach schools, well so be it. But I would not let this well argued article to get in the way of her trying.
Kalidan
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Nice, but with a fatal flaw, in America today, where you go to school does effect what opportunities you have in life. After all my experience, I still hear that the schools I went to limit where I can go in the company I work for.
Basically, success in many ways has become on of either luck or what school one attends. It really does make a difference.
Basically, success in many ways has become on of either luck or what school one attends. It really does make a difference.
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For the past 7 or 8 years, I have done alumni interviews of applicants to my alma mater (one of the Ivies). I've met quite a few really impressive young people every year, but so far, only one who was accepted.
My impression of the admissions process is that all the "brand name" universities receive applications from far more very qualified students than they can possibly enroll. As a consequence, actual acceptance has become something of a "roll of the dice." I rarely meet an applicant who isn't qualified and has frivolously applied. Failure to be accepted should be viewed as bad luck rather than rejection.
I have no idea how the admissions office makes the choices they do. I visit the campus from time to time and today's undergraduates are a truly wonderful and inspiring group of young people. They are impressive and deserve to be there. However, it is also true that there is an even larger number who applied but are studying elsewhere who would be just as wonderful and impressive.
I am honored to be an alumnus and found the university to be everything its reputation promises. However, it became clear to me during my undergraduate years, that the opportunity to learn was as available on hundreds, if not thousands, of other campuses. An elite college only offers an opportunity; in the end, the quality of the education received is entirely up to those who seize it.
My impression of the admissions process is that all the "brand name" universities receive applications from far more very qualified students than they can possibly enroll. As a consequence, actual acceptance has become something of a "roll of the dice." I rarely meet an applicant who isn't qualified and has frivolously applied. Failure to be accepted should be viewed as bad luck rather than rejection.
I have no idea how the admissions office makes the choices they do. I visit the campus from time to time and today's undergraduates are a truly wonderful and inspiring group of young people. They are impressive and deserve to be there. However, it is also true that there is an even larger number who applied but are studying elsewhere who would be just as wonderful and impressive.
I am honored to be an alumnus and found the university to be everything its reputation promises. However, it became clear to me during my undergraduate years, that the opportunity to learn was as available on hundreds, if not thousands, of other campuses. An elite college only offers an opportunity; in the end, the quality of the education received is entirely up to those who seize it.
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When Bruni talks about the "frenzy" over schools like Harvard, he is missing a critical piece of the puzzle: Harvard and a few other top schools meet total financial need. A middle class student leaving Harvard will have far less debt than a student leaving Sarah Lawrence or Bennington. That isn't a problem for rich kids from elite high schools (like the ones you mention.) But it makes a huge difference for the bright kids whose families earn only 50 or 60K/year. For them, the choice is between graduating from Harvard (with no major debt) or community college (with no major debt) or a middle tier college (where they owe 75K in debt.)
That's not a trivial choice, and trivializing it suggests how much you live in an affluent bubble.
That's not a trivial choice, and trivializing it suggests how much you live in an affluent bubble.
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This is exactly what I was thinking when reading this. Extremely insightful.
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Those are not the only 2 choices. There are excellent 4 year state universities. But your has merit.
You really had me with this article until you championed (again) Teach for America. The way you write about it--that even after this wonderful, young, prep-schooled woman was rejected by the big name schools, she "squeaked" into Scripps--she then managed to get admitted into the prestigious, elite, hard-to-get-into organization, TFA. She now runs a charter school. (The TFA/charter school pipeline is secure.) In this example, you use the same skewed logic your article aims to refute about elitism and prestige. Like most public school teachers, I graduated (with honors) from a state school. Teach for America, whose graduates serve as scabs for destroying teachers unions in public schools, touts its "five-week wonders" its hires as the "best and the brightest," largely because so many of them graduate from "elite" schools. Look at your own prejudices and try to be consistent.
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As the father of a college sophomore and a high school junior, I appreciate Frank Bruni's very wise article. The letter from Matt's parents is beautiful.
In one of Malcolm Gladwell's books, he talks about a woman who wanted to go into science, got into Brown, I think, and felt overwhelmed. She ended up leaving science. Had she gone to a the state university, she said, she probably would have pursued a career in science.
The most significant advice I read in a book on financial aid was to go to a college where you will be in the top quarter. You will get the best deal financially (the bottom half helps pay for the top half). With the exception of the Ivies and the top 20 or so engineering programs, it doesn't matter where you go. It's what you make of it.
Much of the pressure to get into a big name, high-powered college seems to come from the East Coast, where many of the top schools are located - along with their highly successful parents. It must be less intense in middle America and the South.
As everyone knows, the way higher education "works" is unsustainable. Too expensive, too competitive, too oriented towards a small slice of students.
We need a big change in education, from pre-K through graduate school. Opportunities for quality education must start earlier and be expanded to include everyone. And no more textbooks from Texas or Kansas. If we are going to educate our children, let's at least teach them facts, not fiction.
In one of Malcolm Gladwell's books, he talks about a woman who wanted to go into science, got into Brown, I think, and felt overwhelmed. She ended up leaving science. Had she gone to a the state university, she said, she probably would have pursued a career in science.
The most significant advice I read in a book on financial aid was to go to a college where you will be in the top quarter. You will get the best deal financially (the bottom half helps pay for the top half). With the exception of the Ivies and the top 20 or so engineering programs, it doesn't matter where you go. It's what you make of it.
Much of the pressure to get into a big name, high-powered college seems to come from the East Coast, where many of the top schools are located - along with their highly successful parents. It must be less intense in middle America and the South.
As everyone knows, the way higher education "works" is unsustainable. Too expensive, too competitive, too oriented towards a small slice of students.
We need a big change in education, from pre-K through graduate school. Opportunities for quality education must start earlier and be expanded to include everyone. And no more textbooks from Texas or Kansas. If we are going to educate our children, let's at least teach them facts, not fiction.
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When I was a freshman, I undertook to write an English theme about Benjamin Franklin. I was allowed to use what I think is the first so-called first edition of this works. It took me a few moments to figure out that God was "all-wise, not "all-wife." I learned that not all texts are contemporary. I mean really learned it in the part of the mind that matters most. And this is why I am glad I attended an "elite"school. You see, they, and they alone, have great libraries where amazing things await you. Ah Frank, It ain't all about getting job.
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"You see, they, and they alone, have great libraries where amazing things await you." This is an absurd comment. Have you never been to a well-regarded public state university? I assure you, they have excellent libraries, too— as well as opportunities for independent research in those facilities. First editions of Ben Franklin's works are not a prerequisite to the achievement (and enjoyment) of a fine, challenging, and enlightening university education. Pointing out that there is a perception that students who go to elite schools are better-positioned to make the connections that lead to career success (hence family anxiety about college placement) is not the same as arguing that those schools (and the students who seek them out) care only about job placement. And it's a big leap to get from something Bruni didn't even say to what you're implying here: That elite schools provide opportunities for deep learning that are not available at less well-regarded institutions. Sounds to me like snobbism desperately seeking some kind of thesis to justify its expression— and you picked a silly one. Having availed yourself of such a superior education... shouldn't you know better?
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My children graduated long ago, but what is true in almost all cases is that expectations about college start early with that little sweatshirt for the baby to subtle and not so subtle encouragement by parents "to excel" or "fulfill your potential,"
or go to that "great" school. Those expectations are only encouraged by secondary schools which want the prestige of placing so many students in elite universities. Parents and counselors need to focus beyond college and re-evaluate what those four years are for. The world has changed; work has changed; academia has changed and the advantage of an elite degree has changed! This article illustrates some of the skills that lead to success that cannot be taught and that can be developed almost anywhere, and sometimes only at one's second or third choice school!
or go to that "great" school. Those expectations are only encouraged by secondary schools which want the prestige of placing so many students in elite universities. Parents and counselors need to focus beyond college and re-evaluate what those four years are for. The world has changed; work has changed; academia has changed and the advantage of an elite degree has changed! This article illustrates some of the skills that lead to success that cannot be taught and that can be developed almost anywhere, and sometimes only at one's second or third choice school!
An excellent column which should be read by all HS seniors possible. A long ago survey was once made to find out where all the CEOs at that time came from, and very few came from the elite colleges such as Harvard, Yale, Columbia or Cornell. In other words, it is not the school that makes you and determines your future, but it is what you do with the years you are in college, what you learn and what you take with you. Of course the name of the institution helps, but should not be our only consideration.
Here's the problem with authors like this: yes, we should change the culture around college admissions, but that will happen over years or decades. What about my kid's future right now? If I don't push him to get into a top 10 finance program, he probably won't get a job at Goldman. If I don't push him into a top 10 CS program, he probably won't get a job at Google. Is that the end of the world? No, but it is a big deal if you can't follow your dreams.
So I agree with you Frank, but are you going to single-handedly change the demand for elite colleges? Are you going to make the hiring process less competitive? Are you going to get my son a high-paying job yourself? If not, your point is moot.
So I agree with you Frank, but are you going to single-handedly change the demand for elite colleges? Are you going to make the hiring process less competitive? Are you going to get my son a high-paying job yourself? If not, your point is moot.
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My child is a freshman at a state school. Here's a tip for surviving the madness: opt out.
We have friends whose children have attended state schools like Texas A&M, Arkansas, OU and Arizona; all graduates are employed with jobs they love. One is in NYC working shoulder-to-shoulder with Ivy League graduates.
If a student "needs" to make contacts at an Ivy League/elite school to dominate the job market or have a social life, that student is already at a disadvantage.
Besides, I bet Harvard doesn't offer Crop and Soil Science. My son loves the class and is contemplating minoring in either that or Poultry Sciences. Who knew.
We have friends whose children have attended state schools like Texas A&M, Arkansas, OU and Arizona; all graduates are employed with jobs they love. One is in NYC working shoulder-to-shoulder with Ivy League graduates.
If a student "needs" to make contacts at an Ivy League/elite school to dominate the job market or have a social life, that student is already at a disadvantage.
Besides, I bet Harvard doesn't offer Crop and Soil Science. My son loves the class and is contemplating minoring in either that or Poultry Sciences. Who knew.
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I opted out— after starting college at a top-ranked liberal arts school that was a terrible fit for me. I ended up getting my undergraduate degree from a state school, where I excelled in a major my elite college did not even offer. In June I will complete my Ph.D. in that field— again at a state school that was not the "best" one that accepted me. I chose to go there because the faculty were a better fit for my research interests (so it WAS the best school... for me). That choice would have been MUCH harder to make it had I not "opted out" of my first college at 18 and survived the experience. I think your point is especially valid when it comes to ag and natural resource fields, in which undergraduate programs often provide a combination of disciplined, theoretically grounded coursework and more applied training. Those majors are alive and kicking at public land grant universities, but good luck finding them at elite private schools. And if you're interested in actually WORKING in those fields, being an alum of a well-regarded soil or fisheries program is going to get you A LOT further than a fancy biology degree from Yale. Regional issues are a factor, too: Having degrees from public schools in the area of the country where my research is focused has opened A LOT of doors for me!
Read the Yik Yak feed from any Ivy League location and it becomes clear that things are not all sunshine and unicorns at these institutions. The pressure to get in is enormous but the pressure to fit in is much worse. Much better to have a good enough undergraduate degree than one that extracts such an unusual and entirely unnecessary personal toll.
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That's not fair Bruni! I've now unsuspectingly crossed a line I never wanted to touch. I cried while reading the morning's news!
Great column.
Great column.
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