On the face of it teaching women to be as disruptive as men is absurd. Men do as rewarded. Those blowhards have been rewarded all their lives for being loud and disruptive and when they get to leadership they let that behavior rule. The tech industry does not have a reputation for the best social skills top to bottom. The only thing worse than a Sheldon type is a Sheldon type in power. The problem is how power is attained and exerted. Inevitably the "reasonable" people are so busy being reasonable they sit by and do nothing when the unreasonable grab the power. This is the crux of it. It is not unreasonable to refuse to give over power just because some one demands it. Most of those bids for your power, interruptions, are fake anyway.
16
Oh great. You don't have enough "self confidence" to speak up because you are one of three women in a room full of men, and you know that at least half of them don't wish you well in your life or your experience in that room. (hint: it's the half who have traded in long suffering first wives for a newer model). So in an effort to completely extinguish whatever signs of confidence you may have exhibited, they take you aside and say there's something wrong with you, and we are going to send you to training to make it better.
It is a new version of the 1970s "dress for success" problem. Then women weren't succeeding because they didn't look like men. This would all be howlingly funny except it brings back memories of what it was like as a newly minted Harvard MBA to have to take the guff day in and day out because you have the rent to pay and groceries to buy, and jobs don't grow on trees.
It is a new version of the 1970s "dress for success" problem. Then women weren't succeeding because they didn't look like men. This would all be howlingly funny except it brings back memories of what it was like as a newly minted Harvard MBA to have to take the guff day in and day out because you have the rent to pay and groceries to buy, and jobs don't grow on trees.
32
There's a solution to all of this (for women):
A. Law School (phenomenal assertion training if you attend a school that still does socratic method)
B. Stop sleeping with the creeps at work
A. Law School (phenomenal assertion training if you attend a school that still does socratic method)
B. Stop sleeping with the creeps at work
7
The real issue is that our country is both sexist and racist.
16
Knowing what is an interruption is the key: if you really have something more important than the speaker you need to get that across with minimum interruption.
I would suspect women with something important to add to the conversation will interrupt. If what you have to say is not that important hold it for the end of the meeting.
Learn to talk about sports memorabilia and how men normally interrupt each other without causing irritation.
When I hear women wanting to change corporations to their favorite way of living and all I can hear is women wanting men to be the solution creator. To win like a women don't ask men to solve problems as maybe women won't like the solutions men are asked to create.
Try practicing useful interruptions at home. If you can't get your interests into conversations at home you probably have a problem at work.
Make sure everything you say in a meeting makes a better solution, not just talk about what everyone knows. Ask yourself is your knowledge deep enough to make a difference. Do you understand the direction a conversation is going and know how to realign the flow? Do you know how to redirect the flow in just a few words? Some men do, but from what I read women seem to have little idea of how to make a meeting better and it hurts the women who have no problem with men in business. The coaches know what I mean: Many women just hate arguments.
I would suspect women with something important to add to the conversation will interrupt. If what you have to say is not that important hold it for the end of the meeting.
Learn to talk about sports memorabilia and how men normally interrupt each other without causing irritation.
When I hear women wanting to change corporations to their favorite way of living and all I can hear is women wanting men to be the solution creator. To win like a women don't ask men to solve problems as maybe women won't like the solutions men are asked to create.
Try practicing useful interruptions at home. If you can't get your interests into conversations at home you probably have a problem at work.
Make sure everything you say in a meeting makes a better solution, not just talk about what everyone knows. Ask yourself is your knowledge deep enough to make a difference. Do you understand the direction a conversation is going and know how to realign the flow? Do you know how to redirect the flow in just a few words? Some men do, but from what I read women seem to have little idea of how to make a meeting better and it hurts the women who have no problem with men in business. The coaches know what I mean: Many women just hate arguments.
2
People who want to be on top will compete to get there, why does anyone seriously think this will somehow change?
6
The Ellen Pao case is a weak one for feminists to use about changing the highly sexist, problematic IT culture in Silicon Valley. Having read a number of the articles by Megan Geuss at Ars Technica about the trial as it has progressed, I'd say Ms. Pao needed coaching in more than how to speak at meetings of mostly men.
She needed coaching to get over her low emotional IQ. In reading what she did and said in the 7 years she worked at Kleiner Perkins, I was struck over and over again to see that she was her own worst enemy. She not only had no idea how to swim in a male shark-tank environment, but repeatedly offered herself up to the sharks, then told her protectors at the firm not to save her.
She has terrible taste in men. If you doubt what I am saying, please note that the man she married in 2007, Alphonse 'Buddy' Fletcher, and had a child with the year after her affair with noted Kleiner sleazeball Ajit Nazre, is now under investigation for civil fraud when he ran and owned a hedge fund. Fletcher was described in a NY Times article as running a Ponzi scheme. He once sued Kidder Peabody for racial discrimination. Sound familiar?
If Ms. Pao prevails in her case against Kleiner Perkins, it will be because the jury feels sorry for her. Yes, sexism is a problem at Kleiner, but this woman's much bigger problem was her own social incompetence. High Stanford-Binet IQ, low emotional IQ.
19
If I'm not an Interrupter, it's not because I underestimate my competence. It's because I'm listening.
46
Let's see the evidence that you fund more successful companies by having meetings where one or a few people "own" the room and are aggressive and interrupt.
I don't care how successful Doer has been if this is what he thinks is necessary then he was just lucky and in the right place at the right time: namely the rise of Silicon Valley.
I don't care how successful Doer has been if this is what he thinks is necessary then he was just lucky and in the right place at the right time: namely the rise of Silicon Valley.
10
That's the nature of the work force. Are we going to go back in time and not elect hillary? Hillary had no qualification except being married to a president. People who talk loud always get promoted goes both ways, not really a gender issue but an HR issue
5
Note to Sasha, that their defense team is all female doesn't prove anything. This is a standard tactic in defending a case like this. If it were an African American bringing a racial discrimination suit, you would likely see a high-priced line-up of African American defense lawyers.
12
Is there any data to suggest that businesses that endorse an aggressive culture are more successful?
6
I am a program manager and have had similar experiences. In my last performance review I was told that I was "very competent", but that I need to be more confident and "impose myself more". This was highly annoying as I had struggled all year with male coworkers who were less experienced than me but extremely arrogant. They were competitive and would contact our bosses behind my back to challenge programs and ideas I had, sometimes trying to get them stopped. Of course, they knew next to nothing about the field I work in and the projects I managed were all highly successful. I had actually mentioned several times that I was frustrated working in what seemed to be a macho micro culture. In any case, I resolved this last year "to impose myself more", as I was told. But honestly it is not going well. I have been told now that I am aggressive and I heard my new male boss (who has less experience than me) say last week to a higher up that I was extremely competent, but not likable and "moody". So it is dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. I am sick of being judged at work on how much some men "like" working with me, rather than on my results, skills, and value to the organization. I will likely leave this organization soon as it does not represent the values I have about equality in the workplace and I do not see that changing any time soon, no matter how much women try to "lean in". I do not work in a sector that is known to be cut throat or aggressive.
52
More women in charge. Done.
5
Why are we still calling this "confidence"? This isn't confidence, this is a display of insecurity. The only people who wander around aggressively in clouds of self-generated atomized bullpuckey like this are the wildly insecure. Women aren't stupid, and they know what they can do. But I've met few women who need to shout like that to show what they can do. That kind of aggression and selfcenteredness is counterproductive at work, and they know it.
When I hire, I specifically do not hire people who behave like that. From the minute they open their mouths, I know that they'll be driven not by the desire to work with a team to do something good, but by their insecurities and need for self-aggrandizement. And the very last thing I want to see in a cover letter is the applicant telling me how confident he is that he's the guy for the job. I don't give a rat's patoot how confident he is, or what he thinks of his own abilities. The only opinion of his abilities that matters, when it comes to hiring, is mine, and -- if others are also involved in hiring -- the rest of the team's. If he can't figure that much out, there's no place for him with me.
When I hire, I specifically do not hire people who behave like that. From the minute they open their mouths, I know that they'll be driven not by the desire to work with a team to do something good, but by their insecurities and need for self-aggrandizement. And the very last thing I want to see in a cover letter is the applicant telling me how confident he is that he's the guy for the job. I don't give a rat's patoot how confident he is, or what he thinks of his own abilities. The only opinion of his abilities that matters, when it comes to hiring, is mine, and -- if others are also involved in hiring -- the rest of the team's. If he can't figure that much out, there's no place for him with me.
21
For a woman to succeed:
1. Okay to be attractive, but not beautiful (regardless of how you dress); the men will feel attracted, even if subliminally, and will be emotionally unable view you as a peer;
2. Don't be too nice; you'll remind the men of their wives, whom they patronize;
3. Do not be working class; you will not fit into a middle-class culture, regardless of where you went to college/grad school and what honors you earned. I once heard a person whom I'd considered to be intelligent and fair, refer to a talented colleague as "a Guido, but nice";
4. Do not be black or Hispanic;
5. Don't advertise your healthy lifestyle unless you are into macho, guy sports and lifestyles;
6. Don't talk about your kids, except to brag about their achievements;
7. Don't suggest that you have a serious life outside the office: no cultural activities, no books, no mother, no nothing. It's okay for the men - makes them "well-rounded"- but you will be "not serious";
8. Don't talk back; you'll be "difficult";
9. Do not trust women in positions of power, unless they OWN (not merely serve as execs for) the company. They know who pays their salaries.
10. The smart way to lean in is to get out. The best professional advice that I ever received was from a senior woman in my field, who told a group of my grad school alumnae that women should start their own businesses.
The modern workplace is, for the most part, a digital plantation: men manage; women serve, minorities type.
1. Okay to be attractive, but not beautiful (regardless of how you dress); the men will feel attracted, even if subliminally, and will be emotionally unable view you as a peer;
2. Don't be too nice; you'll remind the men of their wives, whom they patronize;
3. Do not be working class; you will not fit into a middle-class culture, regardless of where you went to college/grad school and what honors you earned. I once heard a person whom I'd considered to be intelligent and fair, refer to a talented colleague as "a Guido, but nice";
4. Do not be black or Hispanic;
5. Don't advertise your healthy lifestyle unless you are into macho, guy sports and lifestyles;
6. Don't talk about your kids, except to brag about their achievements;
7. Don't suggest that you have a serious life outside the office: no cultural activities, no books, no mother, no nothing. It's okay for the men - makes them "well-rounded"- but you will be "not serious";
8. Don't talk back; you'll be "difficult";
9. Do not trust women in positions of power, unless they OWN (not merely serve as execs for) the company. They know who pays their salaries.
10. The smart way to lean in is to get out. The best professional advice that I ever received was from a senior woman in my field, who told a group of my grad school alumnae that women should start their own businesses.
The modern workplace is, for the most part, a digital plantation: men manage; women serve, minorities type.
41
What is this, grade school? People in positions of power need to be taught how to have a conversation? I've sat in plenty of big meetings with lots of sparks and the people who end up not "owning the room" but owning the process are the ones who are in control of their behavior, not the impatient attention hogs.
14
Seriously? Perhaps the biggest lesson to be learned is that once above a certain level, there is actually very little value added by the generally empty suits who occupy the most posh corporate offices. Given that observation, promotions will inevitably fall to those who are the most self-promoting and skilled in playing office politics. Oh sure, you can probably point to a handful of visionary CEOs, but that is why they are icons. The Federal Reserve plays a much bigger role in deciding stock prices than 99% of business leaders ever will (but that won't prevent them from claiming false credit for their successes and complaining that "no one could have seen that coming" for their failures).
6
One would hope the door isn't just open to the most aggressive women, creating new gender stereotypes that both will sexes exploit, but those with money-making and innovative ideas.
In the future technology will help women get around talking in the boardroom. Fifty years from now economic and social interactions will be a new game where it's easier for the girls to play. In terms of coming up with good ideas though, American women might not be as successful as women in other countries with better notions of work, sex, and play.
In the future technology will help women get around talking in the boardroom. Fifty years from now economic and social interactions will be a new game where it's easier for the girls to play. In terms of coming up with good ideas though, American women might not be as successful as women in other countries with better notions of work, sex, and play.
4
The business and financial results of this are profound. Yes, the personal implications for women are critically important. But what's really appalling is the lost opportunities, squandered resources and wasted money that result from not accessing the brains and experience and knowledge of a large percentage of employees. And the fact that the business value that's being lost isn't a major focus of the discussion.
14
Computing, especially software programming, has an interesting side that make the least competent, very often, the "hero." I have been working in high tech R&D for over 30 years and one thing stands out. It is the engineer that creates problems/bugs by not doing things "right" and then spends all weekend to fix his/her mistakes that ends up being the "hero." This is true whether or not the engineer worked to the spec, didn't use already available and proved components, or someother easily avoidable pitfall . This has held true pretty much every place I've worked (eg Microsoft) with the sole exception tofs Intel where managers understood the technology and the work.)
In my experience with women engineers, not only do they tend to be quieter in meetings where they are outnumbered by men but also make sounder decisions by not allowing themselves to runaway with the latest "in" technology and tend not to reinvent the wheel when the wheel has proven itself to work. In most companies that I've worked for, getting the job done right the first time is viewed as mediocre and the engineer is not considered exempliary where as needlessly and heedlessly messing up big-time makes on a "bright spot" in the engineering realm.
In my experience with women engineers, not only do they tend to be quieter in meetings where they are outnumbered by men but also make sounder decisions by not allowing themselves to runaway with the latest "in" technology and tend not to reinvent the wheel when the wheel has proven itself to work. In most companies that I've worked for, getting the job done right the first time is viewed as mediocre and the engineer is not considered exempliary where as needlessly and heedlessly messing up big-time makes on a "bright spot" in the engineering realm.
16
Interesting and nothing new. It's across engineering fields all over the world.
My late father-in-law was a mechanical engineer in a Chinese power-generation equipment manufacturer. He was a brilliant and creative man.
Once, one of his colleagues was awarded the National May First Labour Medal, the highest award given by the national government that most workers could only dream during their life time.
When asked about this by my wife, he said that if you are not smart and willing to work fourteen hours a day for 365 days a year throughout your working life and solving nothing, you will get the award in the end.
My late father-in-law was a mechanical engineer in a Chinese power-generation equipment manufacturer. He was a brilliant and creative man.
Once, one of his colleagues was awarded the National May First Labour Medal, the highest award given by the national government that most workers could only dream during their life time.
When asked about this by my wife, he said that if you are not smart and willing to work fourteen hours a day for 365 days a year throughout your working life and solving nothing, you will get the award in the end.
6
Workplaces in faster growing industries like tech are not like the educational environments in which many highly intelligent, capable women succeed.
In school, value is placed on raising your hand, waiting to be called on, being team/group oriented, and following set expectations laid out by a teacher. As we see from the growing gap between boys and girls in primary education, girls thrive in these highly structured, predictable environments but then they graduate and try to work in highly competitive growing industries where its the boys who could sit still in their seats and drove the teacher crazy who are excelling and they don't know how to handle it.
There is a fundamental mismatch between what equals success in school and what translates to success in competitive growth industries.
In school, value is placed on raising your hand, waiting to be called on, being team/group oriented, and following set expectations laid out by a teacher. As we see from the growing gap between boys and girls in primary education, girls thrive in these highly structured, predictable environments but then they graduate and try to work in highly competitive growing industries where its the boys who could sit still in their seats and drove the teacher crazy who are excelling and they don't know how to handle it.
There is a fundamental mismatch between what equals success in school and what translates to success in competitive growth industries.
9
I believe that analysis of root cause is essential to understand and changing things. Underlying much of analysis of inequities whether sex, race, ethnic, social class, & income based is an underlying bias that parity should be the norms between groups and that there must be some sort of problem in the current system. Often this is about imposing some sort of change in the system that redistributes opportunity even though the inputs are different. In other words, should there be an equal number of women in venture capital if 80% of highly selective B-schools classes are men? Should there be an equal number of police stops of black and whites if there are substantially more crimes committed by one group? Should there be movies made that support older women actresses in the same numbers as young women actresses? Should we have professional basketball teams with people equaling the height distribution in the country rather than tall people so that it is not a biased system? In every case, there is an argument that the system of recruitment has established pathways that favors some group. However, there also other reasons for differences and some quite legitimate.
4
I am an executive coach who teaches active listening in order to improve communication. It seems that this is not what they are doing in Silicon Valley. I doubt that I will get assignments out there.
15
Women are less confident - so we probably need some kind of affirmative initiative. Women earn few technical degrees so we probably need some kind of affirmative action so that Romance Poetry majors can get into coding. Women take extended leaves from the workforce - so we probably need some kind of action that de-emphasizes actual hours worked and experience
Why do I think that the next leaders of Google will look like the women on HBO's Girls.
Why do I think that the next leaders of Google will look like the women on HBO's Girls.
4
Well, that's an unfair oversimplification. I guess you've never been in a work environment when you get shouted down every day, yet when you speak up are told you don't know your place. That's a real confidence crusher.
12
These kinds of articles always leave me wondering. Female aggression can be absolute and devastating, without voices ever being raised. In offices around the US, there are plenty of loud guys who interrupt, and also give credit when it's due and don't back stab.
And there are plenty of quiet, non-interrupting women who become crazed with envy when someone else--especially a another woman--gets something she wanted, who backstabs, undermines, etc.
And there are plenty of quiet, non-interrupting women who become crazed with envy when someone else--especially a another woman--gets something she wanted, who backstabs, undermines, etc.
14
"Is it the employees’ responsibility to learn how to interrupt, or is it the employers’ job to create a culture in which people without the loudest voice or most aggressive manner can still be heard?"
I spoke to our HR department ( I was in the research labs of a pharma company) about this years ago. After all, it is to the detriment of the company to ignore the quiet thoughtful person who says the right thing once while following the aggressive forceful person who dominates the meeting yet whose ideas are wrong.
Of course, if it's all a game about enriching and advancing yourself, not, say, curing a disease, that's the only case in which it's the quiet thoughtful people who think they are supposed to do a good job who need to be retrained.
I spoke to our HR department ( I was in the research labs of a pharma company) about this years ago. After all, it is to the detriment of the company to ignore the quiet thoughtful person who says the right thing once while following the aggressive forceful person who dominates the meeting yet whose ideas are wrong.
Of course, if it's all a game about enriching and advancing yourself, not, say, curing a disease, that's the only case in which it's the quiet thoughtful people who think they are supposed to do a good job who need to be retrained.
12
With apologies to victims of assault (of which I am one), this whole issue is similar to the widespread practice of blaming the victim. Women can't get ahead in the workplace because men interrupt and treat them rudely, and it's the women's fault? Come on. The problem here is that many men are boorish and rude and can't see beyond their own pride and interests. Instead of coaching and training women to act more like men, perhaps companies should focus on coaching and training men to behave more like women.
47
Coach men to be women? Wives have been failing at that for ages. Why don't we just go for all being adults and leave it at that?
1
I have not experienced a disproportionate number of male interruptors; in fact, when speaking on the phone, I have been more likely to be interrupted by females. But assertive, boorish, inconsiderate conversational style is widespread and by no means a New York or Silicon Valley or venture capital monopoly. The modern world is simply rude, nasty, and cut-throat, whether one dresses in suit and tie, skirt, abaya, sari, or hijab. So when someone interrupts me, I simply tell him or her, in a disgusted tone: "Let me finish my sentence." The interlocutor is then taken aback that someone caught him or her playing the speech dominance game, but at the same time is more likely to curb the behavior for fear of being caught again. If everyone would simply catch the rude people at their own game instead of allowing them to rage unchecked, we would live in a much more courteous world.
18
Stefanos I agree with you on calling out rude behaviour. It works better than getting 'dominated''
Move worked in Bay Area and new York sbd london and sadly the corporate world is full of rude nasty types. I can't wait to start my own thing ... It's not got everyone - thus cuthroat mentality
Move worked in Bay Area and new York sbd london and sadly the corporate world is full of rude nasty types. I can't wait to start my own thing ... It's not got everyone - thus cuthroat mentality
2
So true. Your advice is good and people can also watch Judge Judy to learn how to deal with interrupters. Yes, she amps it up for entertainment purposes but a dialed-down version of her approach fits all scenarios.
2
Maybe we need to look at the question of why do both men and woman consistently look to hubristic males as the best model of leadership.
One instinctively expects a person that clearly knows what they are doing to exude confidence. However, a person with second thoughts and that admits one's assumptions may be inaccurate is likely the person with the firmer grasp of reality.
Nothing focuses the mind better than a mythological confidence in the correctness of a mission.
One instinctively expects a person that clearly knows what they are doing to exude confidence. However, a person with second thoughts and that admits one's assumptions may be inaccurate is likely the person with the firmer grasp of reality.
Nothing focuses the mind better than a mythological confidence in the correctness of a mission.
16
what a great work environment where everyone in the room can all be aggressive at the same time, interrupt each other and "own the room" all at the same time. That's going to be a really productive meeting. Mercifully I am hoping to be able to get out of the work force in the next 9 years or so, this article reminds me why I want to do something valuable with my life instead of wasting it at work like an ever increasing number of women are forced to do.
30
I hope a day never comes when women feel highly confident all the time. What would be better is to teach very confident males to tamp it down a notch.
A couple of years ago, I underwent the full range of treatment for cancer - aggressive chemotherapy, surgery and radiation. Being in a European hospital, I had a mix of doctors. Whosever ward I landed on was in charge.
I learned to be hopeful that I would get a young, female doctor. These women were anxious and super-conscientious. This meant that they checked, double checked and checked again. The treatment I got was superb.
Contrast that with a couple of the male doctors, who may have been charismatic and better fun to talk to, but who made mistake after mistake. Wrong drugs ordered, blood transfusions wrongly ordered, etc. When I was in isolation, they were the ones who felt they could enter without full infection gear. These guys were over-confident about their skills, and seemed to assume they had all the answers already.
I'm not talking about all men, or all women, just that over-confidence can be a curse, and under-confidence can be a blessing.
A couple of years ago, I underwent the full range of treatment for cancer - aggressive chemotherapy, surgery and radiation. Being in a European hospital, I had a mix of doctors. Whosever ward I landed on was in charge.
I learned to be hopeful that I would get a young, female doctor. These women were anxious and super-conscientious. This meant that they checked, double checked and checked again. The treatment I got was superb.
Contrast that with a couple of the male doctors, who may have been charismatic and better fun to talk to, but who made mistake after mistake. Wrong drugs ordered, blood transfusions wrongly ordered, etc. When I was in isolation, they were the ones who felt they could enter without full infection gear. These guys were over-confident about their skills, and seemed to assume they had all the answers already.
I'm not talking about all men, or all women, just that over-confidence can be a curse, and under-confidence can be a blessing.
77
I hope you are in full recovery/remission from your cancer! Interesting insights. My SO is undergoing cancer treatment right now--interestingly, all his doctors are female, and many of the nurses are male.
1
Almost all the comments here dwell on nurture over nature. But while biology is not destiny it plays a role in our various dramas. Female and male traits get translated in different ways in different cultures. Ditto for Asian and western traits. This is not a reflection of sexisim or racism, but an awareness of reality which should be taken into account.
6
I am always struck by how these sorts articles dealing with gender comparisons always blithely assume all men form some sort of monolithic amalgam of arrogance and aggression. Maybe the men who are causing the problems, but there are a lot more men who suffer and fail to progress and/or "thrive" in business, education and other environments because of their inability to navigate hostile and aggressive workplaces. You never saw a lot of advocates for them emerging. Unfortunately, non aggressive, non hostile men some with enormous potential have never generated a lot of attention or sympathy. I believe they're referred to as "wimps". Ideally, however, all these suggestions for improving work place environments driven by the desire to see women thrive should have an equally laudatory impact on allowing the non dominant males in these environments to also more freely make the contributions of which they too are sometimes capable. After all the techniques listed in this article evolved and were deployed with the primary purposes of keeping other men down and rare is the man who has not been buffeted by them. When women entered the competition the cannons were simply turned on them.
54
It sounds to me that this firm did quite the opposite of discriminating against Ellen Pao; they paid her more than male colleagues, gave her carte blanche access to the big boss, and specially mentored her years specifically because she was so hard to work with. Very sad to now turn around and try to take them down. Their defense team is all female, as a matter of fact.
15
Female defense teams are standard when the defendant is male, the plaintiff is female, and the issue is gender discrimination. Nothing new there except legal strategy at work.
10
I've worked in the tech field for twenty years. I've seen hundreds of blowhard MBAs come in, spout nonsense, and leave without improving a thing.
I now have enough power to choose who works for me. The first people I screen out or get rid of are creeps, primadonnas and people who interrupt.
The increase in productivity is absolutely amazing. I have people who are happy to come to work and feel free to share their ideas precisely because these ill-mannered buffoons aren't invited.
If you want your company to truly innovate, give the introverts a chance to speak. They're a much greater source of truly novel ideas than the narcisist with the fancy cufflinks.
I now have enough power to choose who works for me. The first people I screen out or get rid of are creeps, primadonnas and people who interrupt.
The increase in productivity is absolutely amazing. I have people who are happy to come to work and feel free to share their ideas precisely because these ill-mannered buffoons aren't invited.
If you want your company to truly innovate, give the introverts a chance to speak. They're a much greater source of truly novel ideas than the narcisist with the fancy cufflinks.
168
I want to work for you!
6
San Francisco is the brave new world of aggressive, unprofessional male behaviour. Misogynistic behaviour is the new normal as the dude/bro culture rewards male aggressive behaviour as innovative and forwarding thinking.
California gender issues are not new. As a state, they rank 23rd for professional advancement for women.
California gender issues are not new. As a state, they rank 23rd for professional advancement for women.
13
Whoa. I agree with you, but can you please provide a source for the last sentence? Thanks.
1
Yes, and add "in both the private AND public sectors". The Sheriff of the City and County of San Francisco is a domestic violence offender who was reinstated to his position, following his suspension by the Mayor in preparation for a termination hearing, by his male colleagues on the Board of Supervisors.
Why? Not because he was innocent but because he supported causes popular with far-left activists.
Why? Not because he was innocent but because he supported causes popular with far-left activists.
2
People who are competent but not confident sometimes assume they cannot and should not have confidence until and unless they are perfect. Since it is impossible to be perfect, they never develop confidence. These type of people usually need help to learn how to let go of the perfectionistic mindset and learn how to appropriately evaluate themselves.
I often see these type of people (both women and men) in psychotherapy because of high anxiety and stress-related issues. It sometimes takes awhile for them to admit how often and to what degree they obsess about perfection but once we can focus on that, it is often possible to change that way of thinking.
I recommend the book titled Too Perfect: When Being in Control Gets Out of Control. I could be wrong about the exact wording of that title but it's something like that. (I'm not perfect....)
I often see these type of people (both women and men) in psychotherapy because of high anxiety and stress-related issues. It sometimes takes awhile for them to admit how often and to what degree they obsess about perfection but once we can focus on that, it is often possible to change that way of thinking.
I recommend the book titled Too Perfect: When Being in Control Gets Out of Control. I could be wrong about the exact wording of that title but it's something like that. (I'm not perfect....)
30
You know who has a lot of confidence?
Ms. Pao's husband Buddy Fletcher. Mr. Fletcher is always suing somebody for discrimination, if he's not being sued by firefighters for their pension funds vanishing.
Ms. Pao's husband Buddy Fletcher. Mr. Fletcher is always suing somebody for discrimination, if he's not being sued by firefighters for their pension funds vanishing.
28
Sure, he's a con man. I wonder if he is friends with Bill Clinton, another man with a lot of confidence.
As usual Mr Sailer has shed more light on the real cause of this conflict.
2
i would not give Buddy a single penny to invest.
He has played the system quite well.
Also, let's not get started on this marriage of convenience. Are they really married given Buddy's preferences?
He has played the system quite well.
Also, let's not get started on this marriage of convenience. Are they really married given Buddy's preferences?
6
It was said, by David Sarnoff of NBC fame, that "Competition brings out the best in products but the worst in people." But in today's American workplace, all too often rule is by 'divide and conquer', with people being constantly played off against each other. And you wonder why so many companies find themselves lurching into failure? What else would you expect, when so many of us have to spend so much time and energy concentrating on office politics that there's not enough left to enable us to actually do our jobs decently?
25
I believe that most firms develop a culture. Over time some people (male or female) fit in or do NOT fit in. Those who fit in stay with the firm. Those who don't leave. The same firm or culture is not for everyone.
9
Dog-eat-dog? No ... shark-eat-shark. And at the same time, stunningly juvenile.
11
Has anyone studied the transformation these shrinking violets must obviously go through when they marry? Teaching my wife to interrupt is roughly akin to teaching a fish to swim.
11
I like you, John! Very funny and true. Men don't have a monopoly on talking over people. At my small firm, I am probably the worst offender.
1
Confidence is what it is. You got it or you get passed.
1
Interrupting others is not a mark of confidence...instead it smacks of insecurity.
If you are really confident that your idea is correct, you will not need to trumpet it. The skill is in finding artful ways to demonstrate that without intimidating others.
If you are really confident that your idea is correct, you will not need to trumpet it. The skill is in finding artful ways to demonstrate that without intimidating others.
9
"... the people who got ahead were those who hyped themselves and talked over others"
Pretty incompetent management to me: Let's promote arrogant jerks who may or may not be effective at their jobs, who are probably loathed by half their coworkers.
Pretty incompetent management to me: Let's promote arrogant jerks who may or may not be effective at their jobs, who are probably loathed by half their coworkers.
84
I conduct communication training for a number of well-known clients here in Silicon Valley. They often hire me to help an employee, male or female, native speaker or not, who is excellent technically but reticent in meetings. What this article calls "interruption coaching" has for 20+ years been a common element of the coaching I do. Most clients are in software, financial services, or biotech/pharmaceuticals. They don't generally want to change their corporate culture, but they don't want to lose out on key contributions.
As linguists. we often work with our coachees on exactly what counts as an interruption, a word with a negative connotation of rudeness or even bullying. For some, it's a matter of getting comfortable with the rhythm of talk around a conference table, so that they will speak up or take the floor even when there is no clear break or pause in the flow. This can be done in all sorts of ways that do not involve shouting. Why haven't our coaches just picked up this skill, growing up here or working here for a while? Various reasons, not necessarily tied to gender or home culture but more often to personality. It's a skill that most people, but not all, will try to learn because they want their ideas to be heard and valued. Those who can't, generally look for work in more relaxed environments, such as moving from Big Four accounting to handling the books for a small company. But at least an effort has been made, on both sides, the employer and the employee.
As linguists. we often work with our coachees on exactly what counts as an interruption, a word with a negative connotation of rudeness or even bullying. For some, it's a matter of getting comfortable with the rhythm of talk around a conference table, so that they will speak up or take the floor even when there is no clear break or pause in the flow. This can be done in all sorts of ways that do not involve shouting. Why haven't our coaches just picked up this skill, growing up here or working here for a while? Various reasons, not necessarily tied to gender or home culture but more often to personality. It's a skill that most people, but not all, will try to learn because they want their ideas to be heard and valued. Those who can't, generally look for work in more relaxed environments, such as moving from Big Four accounting to handling the books for a small company. But at least an effort has been made, on both sides, the employer and the employee.
12
It's very difficult to have confidence in someone who does not display confidence in himself/herself, but it doesn't require verbal intimidation, interruptions, etc. to display confidence.
10
Susan Cain makes that exact point in an anecdote about herself in her book, "Quiet: The power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking".
1
While I sympathize with the focus on competence rather than hubris - as someone who had a fair amount of the former and little of the latter (many a software project I was involved in would have fared much better had balanced and lucid minds been listened to rather than "tribal leaders"), it is still true that a new idea does often need an "evangelist" to be able to take root. Not all personalities have this within them. It may be that this characteristic statistically biases towards males (I would certainly guess as much on multiple grounds).
This does not have to be a bad thing: it depends on what one wishes to optimize. If the goal is a Pareto outcome for example, it might be just fine after one takes into account clearly expressed personal preferences. One cannot for example, simply legislate male competitiveness out of existence. Nor can one legislate increased assertiveness in females.
Certainly one can try to implement mechanisms that Pareto maximizes the overall payoffs from such observable traits but it is unclear so far what this should look like. For example, it may not in fact look like a highly collaborative, equal and democratic environment. Everyone may actually be better off under some alternate scheme.
I do not know but I doubt that imposing egalitarianism for its own sake is likely to be the correct answer. There is after all, a distribution of talents, traits, competences, etc, and it is abundantly clear that this distribution is not the uniform one.
This does not have to be a bad thing: it depends on what one wishes to optimize. If the goal is a Pareto outcome for example, it might be just fine after one takes into account clearly expressed personal preferences. One cannot for example, simply legislate male competitiveness out of existence. Nor can one legislate increased assertiveness in females.
Certainly one can try to implement mechanisms that Pareto maximizes the overall payoffs from such observable traits but it is unclear so far what this should look like. For example, it may not in fact look like a highly collaborative, equal and democratic environment. Everyone may actually be better off under some alternate scheme.
I do not know but I doubt that imposing egalitarianism for its own sake is likely to be the correct answer. There is after all, a distribution of talents, traits, competences, etc, and it is abundantly clear that this distribution is not the uniform one.
10
Let me tell you what you are missing in your analysis. There are women evangelists who do speak up. They are often persona non grata, deemed not obedient enough to be trusted in the workplace. Identical lean in behavior prized in men is not tolerated in women. It's that simple.
An analysis of the situation that only considers style and culture differences between the sexes, and not sexism and outright bias, misses the point most of the time. You're just ignoring the elephant in the room.
An analysis of the situation that only considers style and culture differences between the sexes, and not sexism and outright bias, misses the point most of the time. You're just ignoring the elephant in the room.
6
I would not call the men's behavior in the examples "confidence." Arrogance and aggressiveness it is. I don't believe being female offers immunity to arrogance and aggressiveness. It might be plausible that men and women tend to have different ways of expressing similar feelings/traits. Even the latter is not an absolute. I remember reading Ms. Pao said to a woman colleague's face that the latter did not deserve promotion. Let's not rehash "biology as destiny" mantra. As an aging feminist, I am very uncomfortable with the interest group politics in the name of feminism (which in my opinion seeks transformation for a more just society for all).
26
So the corporate office is full of disruptive, infantile behavior? Shameless self promotion at the expense of others? I have been in the business world for 30 years and have witnessed a lack of manners and broad based bullyism. What kind of children, if any, are these people bringing up? I witnessed a vice president blow a tantrum in my office, today, with an administrator. Everyone was "head down" and let his behavior continue. This is so very sad. interruption indeed!
55
I worked in advertising in New York for twenty years and I was never in a meeting with women who didn't handle themselves as well as the men if not better. I read articles like this and don't know if they are fabrications like the postings online by trolls designed to anger or if something has gone terribly wrong and the women of today just aren't as competent as the women of the 1970s or 1980s.
17
Bingo. This case just seems bogus.
1
The tech world is a totally different animal. There are far, far fewer women and the atmosphere is far more male. This article is spot on.
22
This is whole "build one's personal brand" is just going to lead to an ego-driven narcissistic culture where competition instead of collaboration to build up one's image will lead to the incorrect traits being rewarded. All that does is determine who can do the best PR, not the best work. I say this as someone who has played this game fairly successfully and have gone through some humbling experiences to realise that there's more to life than everyone just rushing around to promote their own brand. However, that seems like an idealistic view today and it appears Warhol got it right: no small wonder that the human species is failing.
54
Interrupting others? The employees simply need to live in NYC long enough to pick up its fast paced culture and merry conversational style, which includes overlapping speaking turns and interrupting each other. It's not rude, it's simply a cultural style!
B. Stanton, M.A., CCC-Speech-Language Pathologist
B. Stanton, M.A., CCC-Speech-Language Pathologist
18
There are many different cultures and conversational styles in NYC and other locations around the planet. Expecting and insisting that others adapt to one's particular conversational style, even if it's the dominant one, is indeed quite self-centered and downright rude. And any business leader who wants to ensure that all ideas are considered will find a way to ensure that all voices are heard, including those of individuals from cultures where interrupting someone is just not done.
23
There's NYish interrupting and there's male-pattern conversational dominance, which are two different things. One is sociable and the other is simply aggressive, a power play. There are many studies of workplace disrespect shown to women by men who not only talk over them, but talk over them as though they aren't there, and never come back to acknowledge anything the women were saying. Unless it's to take credit for the idea.
I see no reason to coach women in this behavior or do anything else to promote it. On the contrary, I'd look to coach the people who do behave that way in collegiality and respect for the people they work with.
I see no reason to coach women in this behavior or do anything else to promote it. On the contrary, I'd look to coach the people who do behave that way in collegiality and respect for the people they work with.
40
Tina Fey's advice keeps me sane when I read articles like this.
"When faced with sexism or ageism or lookism or even really aggressive Buddhism, ask yourself the following question: 'Is this person in between me and what I want to do?' If the answer is no, ignore it and move on. Your energy is better used doing your work, and outpacing people that way. Then, when you're in charge, don't hire the people who were jerky to you....
Don't waste your energy trying to educate or change opinions. Go "Over! Under! Through!" and opinions will change organically when you're the boss."
The full excerpt is fantastic:
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/top_right/2011/07/we_didnt_come...
"When faced with sexism or ageism or lookism or even really aggressive Buddhism, ask yourself the following question: 'Is this person in between me and what I want to do?' If the answer is no, ignore it and move on. Your energy is better used doing your work, and outpacing people that way. Then, when you're in charge, don't hire the people who were jerky to you....
Don't waste your energy trying to educate or change opinions. Go "Over! Under! Through!" and opinions will change organically when you're the boss."
The full excerpt is fantastic:
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/top_right/2011/07/we_didnt_come...
81
VC is a rough and tumble, dog-eat-dog environment. To expect the job to adapt to your ill suited sensibilities suggests another career selection is in order. Gender is irrelevant - you either are suited to the job or not.
17
You raise an interesting point, perhaps. If we look at various businesses in light of whether they encourage the best ideas to flourish, rather than the loudest voices to be heard, we may be able to discern something about the relative usefulness of the business to society.
42
Maybe "rough and tumble". Is the VC culture. But I wonder whether are more thoughtful or collaborative environment might get better business results. Do businesses short-change themselves when confidence is more promotable than competentcy?
12
That's interesting that you say gender is irrelevant in VC. A forensic expert testified last week that the women in the firm, on average, contributed more to the financial bottom line than the typical male in the firm. Of the partners, all are male but one. It takes more than competence to be successful in VC. You have to be in the club, and the club is still male and white. There is one asian and it sounds like he only got in because they wanted someone who speaks Mandarin.
4
As a engineer who is female, this women-are-this-and-men-are-that discussion really makes me uncomfortable. In the tech/business areas that I have worked in and in the business-school classroom that I have taught in, there has been more intra-gender variation in personality types than there there has been inter-gender variation. If speaking up is necessary in a particular profession, then so be it -- everyone who gets hired into that profession should be held to the same standard, and everyone who needs professional coaching should ask for it and get it.
If the job of a sea captain is to be gone for long months on rough seas, don't let's start saying, "that's not fair, we should find a way for someone to be a sea captain while sitting cozy on land, because otherwise that excludes half of humanity." Those who get seasick and lonely need not apply. It is, however, fair for sea captains to ask for and get technologies that will help them keep in touch and navigate safely.
(I know that some of this article is about how women are _perceived_ rather than how they are -- but, by making this all one intractable big ball wax, are we starting to make the hiring of women a radioactive issue?)
If the job of a sea captain is to be gone for long months on rough seas, don't let's start saying, "that's not fair, we should find a way for someone to be a sea captain while sitting cozy on land, because otherwise that excludes half of humanity." Those who get seasick and lonely need not apply. It is, however, fair for sea captains to ask for and get technologies that will help them keep in touch and navigate safely.
(I know that some of this article is about how women are _perceived_ rather than how they are -- but, by making this all one intractable big ball wax, are we starting to make the hiring of women a radioactive issue?)
54
Yes, but what if someone comes up with a way of making it so that no sea captain needs to be gone for long months on rough seas?
Arguing that what is done today is per se useful and efficient and adapt or be gone is antithetical to innovation and progress.
Arguing that what is done today is per se useful and efficient and adapt or be gone is antithetical to innovation and progress.
18
Two small matters: everyone isn't held to the same standard, and gender isn't the only "radioactive" characteristic where this is a problem.
2
I think you've been brainwashed by the rigid dudes who've been running your show since your undergrad years. I've been there, but there's life outside.
More often than not the "that's just the way the job works" excuses are just that, excuses. Driven, more often than not, by fear of competition from groups of people who'd been excluded before. Most of the perennials involve talk about slavish devotion to work, but the reality is that most jobs really can be split up, flexed, worked around mat leaves, done by smaller people, etc., etc. You always get this terrific resistence with some band of guys insisting that their particular job can't be done any other way, and then lo/behold, two blocks down someone's doing it another way.
The fear of boat-rocking because you're working with a bunch of sexists who don't need much tipping before they start discriminating more openly against women -- well, that's something else, but if you ask me it's a demonstration of why confronting nonsense is a good idea. We never have gotten too far with the tiny-increments approach.
More often than not the "that's just the way the job works" excuses are just that, excuses. Driven, more often than not, by fear of competition from groups of people who'd been excluded before. Most of the perennials involve talk about slavish devotion to work, but the reality is that most jobs really can be split up, flexed, worked around mat leaves, done by smaller people, etc., etc. You always get this terrific resistence with some band of guys insisting that their particular job can't be done any other way, and then lo/behold, two blocks down someone's doing it another way.
The fear of boat-rocking because you're working with a bunch of sexists who don't need much tipping before they start discriminating more openly against women -- well, that's something else, but if you ask me it's a demonstration of why confronting nonsense is a good idea. We never have gotten too far with the tiny-increments approach.
5
Self promotion has always been an important component to success. Check every politician. One of the most successful industries to American innovation and your prosperity is the venture capital industry. For Progressives to attempt to equalitize genders will probably neuter it and negatively impact the world. American ingenuity, innovation, and success benefits almost all humans. My personal belief is that many Progressives want to "prove" that capitalism and the American political system are fatally flawed and they work for that to be accomplished. Women and men are NOT equal!
4
Hogwash. If you really believe in ingenuity and innovation, you ought to be more curious about how the best ideas can be encouraged from the best people. If it is true that many men are bad at listening, that alone should tell you that the conditions for the best business practices are not optimal.
63
Your fear of 'neutering,' implication that success and ingenuity are manly virtues, and vociferous opposition to male-female equality seem to define the status quo. Who knew that manhood and American capitalism were such vulnerable fortresses?
7
Women don't put themselves forward aggressively because most of them know that aggression is destructive.
Women in executive positions have the chance to change business culture from the top down, by supporting gentle, adaptive and cooperative interaction styles, styles that are more productive (and creative!) than aggression.
Women in executive positions have the chance to change business culture from the top down, by supporting gentle, adaptive and cooperative interaction styles, styles that are more productive (and creative!) than aggression.
95
Women don't put themselves forward because when they do, they are punished for it. For years I have seen junior men promote their abilities above the level of their competence, only to be rewarded with opportunity after opportunity. When women are confident and assertive they are witches, hard to work with - while men with those behaviors are seen as ready and able to get ahead. Women in middle management can be successful - women in senior leadership position are criticized and held back whatever they do. And it is worse now than it was 30 years ago.
65
Oh I don't know. 30 years ago you couldn't even advance to middle management as a woman.
5
Insanity, pure and simple.......
2
Maybe Ellen Pao wasn't the best example for discrimination in the workplace.