I am agnostic (ignorant?) on the issue of ferrets as pets. However, I find it interesting to speculate what would have happened if this had been a proposal to institute a ferret ban rather than, as it actually was, to repeal the ban. I think we could assume that the 3 votes to continue the ban would have favored imposing it. Similarly the 2 who voted for repeal would have opposed imposing it. Now what about the 5 abstentions? 3 of them would have had to vote for the ban in order for it to be imposed, since 6 affirmative votes are needed to enact regulations. So it appears distinctly possible there would be no ban now had it not been previously imposed.
More generally, under the NYC Board of Health rules, an abstention has the same effect on enacting/modifying regulations as a no vote. Congress works the same way, as do most legislative bodies. So abstainers should not get a free pass from those favoring change.
More generally, under the NYC Board of Health rules, an abstention has the same effect on enacting/modifying regulations as a no vote. Congress works the same way, as do most legislative bodies. So abstainers should not get a free pass from those favoring change.
Mayor Giuliani's continued disparagement of ferrets is surprising. As this article notes, weasels are cousins of ferrets.
5
I like ferrets a lot better than Giuliani. Come to think of it, I like almost everything better than Giuliani.
2
Want to get rid of the ferrets? Let Mayor de Blasio hold them on February 2nd.
4
Board members abstaining from voting! How can an official on the board decide not to vote on city matters?! So the ban was upheld despite the fact that only two of ten members voted for it. Why aren't dogs banned then? Incredible..
1
Glad that the city decided to ban ferrets - it is a good move. As loathsome as I find Mayor Giuliani, I agree with him on this issue. The ferret people look like they need some sunshine, a good burger and sex. Next, I wish to God that pit bulls were banned. They are a TRUE menace that have killed MANY people, including children. NO MORE PIT BULLS, PLEASE!!
Ferrets have been domesticated longer than the cat. This is ridiculous.
3
I am much more worried about pit bulls and other dangerous breeds of dogs. The damage a ferret could do is tiny compared to these dogs. I find it ironic that we allow these dogs in our neighborhoods and alongside our children, when every day there is a new person mauled or killed by someone's 'pittie'.
Really, ferrets? Ok, if you're going to ban ferrets, please ban some animals that are actually dangerous.
Really, ferrets? Ok, if you're going to ban ferrets, please ban some animals that are actually dangerous.
3
Ferrets have been pets longer than NYC has been a city. This is a really dumb decision.
1
The Romans kept lions as "pets".
They are wild animals and should not be kept as pets for the owner's amusement.
If only the ban was extended to all non-domestic animals, such as birds and reptiles who spend their lives in cages.
Absolutely repugnant that anyone would cage a wild animal for life, just so they can entertain themselves.
If only the ban was extended to all non-domestic animals, such as birds and reptiles who spend their lives in cages.
Absolutely repugnant that anyone would cage a wild animal for life, just so they can entertain themselves.
4
I'm a vegan and sympathize with your position, but I am also have over 15 years of experience in ferret caretaking, husbandry, rescue, and shelter training, and the simple fact is that ferrets (Mustela putorious furo) are fully domesticated and are not wild. This is affirmed by every major veterinary, zoological, and animal welfare organization and is debatable to the extent that climate change and evolution are debatable. The endangered black-footed ferret (Mustela nigripes) IS wild, however, but that animal has nothing to do with the issue at hand, though the similarity in names keeps creating confusion.
As for cages, proper ferret care does not involve "caging" the way proper rodent or reptile care does. Like cats, ferrets are crepuscular (active at dawn and dusk). They will typically spend vast amounts of time sleeping - 18 hours a day or more is not unusual. Hammocks hanging inside the security of a cage are an ideal sleeping environment for ferrets, as anyone who has spent as much time as I have observing ferrets can attest. Cages also prevent injury to the ferret when its human is away during the day (at work, typically). Part of learning how to take care of a ferret is recognizing that they need lots of time for running around, playing, and exercising. Keeping a ferret in a cage 24 hours a day is abusive and constitutes maltreatment and cruelty.
As for cages, proper ferret care does not involve "caging" the way proper rodent or reptile care does. Like cats, ferrets are crepuscular (active at dawn and dusk). They will typically spend vast amounts of time sleeping - 18 hours a day or more is not unusual. Hammocks hanging inside the security of a cage are an ideal sleeping environment for ferrets, as anyone who has spent as much time as I have observing ferrets can attest. Cages also prevent injury to the ferret when its human is away during the day (at work, typically). Part of learning how to take care of a ferret is recognizing that they need lots of time for running around, playing, and exercising. Keeping a ferret in a cage 24 hours a day is abusive and constitutes maltreatment and cruelty.
3
Why does the "has been Guiliani" get to weigh in? Who cares what he thinks? Of all the pets to worry about, ferrets are not one of them.
1
I have never understood this silly law. Ferrets are no more dangerous than cats. They make very good small pets. I own two, and they're both very soft, friendly, and clever. They don't bite or spread diseases.
4
They do bite, they just haven't bitten you. If they have teeth they will bite.
1
Assuming you have a landlord who doesn't mind, and you're a discreet ferret owner, the ban appears to be virtually unenforceable.
This ban is ridiculous. The idea that ferrets will turn feral is about as logical as the fact that your terrier will breed and roam around like wolves. Most ferret owners in the U.S. feed their ferrets pellet food instead of meat and bones (as in Europe), and so any ferrets that might escape (which *is* possible) would be averse to eating anything else and die.
The only other danger they run is stealing your socks. Maybe their habits of theft are what really have New York City officials worried!
As to the ferret attacking that baby in Philadelphia, it's more a testament to the ineptitude of the parents than to the viciousness of the ferret. Both the ferret and the baby were left downstairs alone, with the infant set up in a car seat on the floor. In order for the ferret to do that sort of damage (if it even did so), it must have been underfed for an extended period. They are not dangerous by nature.
The only other danger they run is stealing your socks. Maybe their habits of theft are what really have New York City officials worried!
As to the ferret attacking that baby in Philadelphia, it's more a testament to the ineptitude of the parents than to the viciousness of the ferret. Both the ferret and the baby were left downstairs alone, with the infant set up in a car seat on the floor. In order for the ferret to do that sort of damage (if it even did so), it must have been underfed for an extended period. They are not dangerous by nature.
8
Your argument that a ferret won't hunt if it escapes and will simply starve to death is not only illogical but contradictory to your rationale that the ferret attack in Philly was the result of the animal being starved. Any ferret that escapes will reach this point if it doesn't find an alternative food source. The biting is also not uncommon rodent behavior which poses a hazard parents can't mitigate when the ferret escapes and winds up in the nursery of someone else's apartment.
2
Ferrets are feral animals, not domesticated for tens of thousands of years, like dogs and cats.
3
What is the penalty for having ferrets? I had two ferrets for about 8 years. Took them out with me all the time - on a leash of course. Took them to the vet where they were treated with no questions. Never an issue. They are great pets.
4
My sister had one once. It came into the guest room and bit your toes every morning. One day it "disappeared" only to reappear dead in the sofa bed where it had gotten stuck. Not really a cuddly pet.
4
I applaud this excellent decision by the City Board of Health.
6
From USA Today, this past January: "Ferrets chew off baby's nose." This happened in Philadelphia.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/01/23/ferrets-chew-babys-face/22...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/01/23/ferrets-chew-babys-face/22...
6
Then make it illegal to have ferrets if you have children under a certain age. Sounds like owners were at fault.
1
" Dr. Mary Travis Bassett, was one of his appointees who chose to abstain from the vote; the other was Gail Nayowith."
I wish someone would "ferret out" the reason that public officials can abstain from doing their job. Isn't it their job to make these decisions=-good, bad or indifferent? We seem to get a lot of this too in DC. Recusal is possible if one had a direct conflict, but just voting "present" or abstaining is ridiculous.
I wish someone would "ferret out" the reason that public officials can abstain from doing their job. Isn't it their job to make these decisions=-good, bad or indifferent? We seem to get a lot of this too in DC. Recusal is possible if one had a direct conflict, but just voting "present" or abstaining is ridiculous.
2
The 150+ "just present" votes worked out fine for Obama. Just saying.
Just proves you were in on the meeting, nothing more.
Just proves you were in on the meeting, nothing more.
1
NYC bureaucrats think that the city is fundamentally different from everyplace else in the country so different rules need apply. This is an example. Another is legal right turn on red. The only place were it is illegal in the country if not specially marked is in NYC.
2
For many reasons New York City is fundamentally different than anywhere else in the country. It's geographic size, composition, population, age, architecture and economy among many obvious elements make your conclusion demonstrably overstated. Ferrets have been illegal here since the 1950s. That is not as old as other existing bans in the US or elsewhere.
Ferrets escape and are destructive. I've had significant damage from an escapee from another apartment. A child was bitten by one at my child's school
Ferrets escape and are destructive. I've had significant damage from an escapee from another apartment. A child was bitten by one at my child's school
2
right turn on red would create total chaos in Manhattan (what about the pedestrians that would be crossing at that time?), so no thank you. Also, most countries don't have a right turn on red for this reason, it makes sense in some American cities where there aren't a lot of pedestrians and not as much traffic though.
4
That's it. I won't move to a city I can't afford due to the ferret ban.
5
Considering there are a number of other animals available as pets, I don't understand the obsession of people to want to own a ferret. I live in a building that doesn't allow dogs. Everyone lives within certain boundaries.
I can understand that if someone already has a pet ferret that they're bonded to it, but it's been illegal for many years in the city, so anyone owning a ferret is a scofflaw and I have little sympathy.
I can understand that if someone already has a pet ferret that they're bonded to it, but it's been illegal for many years in the city, so anyone owning a ferret is a scofflaw and I have little sympathy.
3
Much ado about nothing.
Cats are more environmentally destructive.
I wish Mayor de Blasio's administration had put as much thought and effort into filling potholes or returning some vestige of civilization to Rikers Island.
I consider Rudy Giuliani hating ferrets an endorsement for keeping them.
Cats are more environmentally destructive.
I wish Mayor de Blasio's administration had put as much thought and effort into filling potholes or returning some vestige of civilization to Rikers Island.
I consider Rudy Giuliani hating ferrets an endorsement for keeping them.
11
Of course Rudy is going to hate ferrets. They prey on rats.
3
This is beyond ridiculous. Why? A ferrets are about as hazardous as a pet turtle -- less so, if you consider the risk of salmonella. I see a much greater risk in government bureaucrats sticking their noses where they don't belong.
4
that's an argument for banning turtles.
2
I.
Like.
Turtles.
Like.
Turtles.
1
Lots of Americans have ferrets in their homes, and there are no remarkable problems with them. Lots of New Yorkers have ferrets, more or less secretly, and there are no remarkable problems with them. Lots of New Yorkers have rats as animal-companions, and there are no remarkable problems with them!
This action by the Board of Health is unprofessional, anti-scientific and absurd.
This action by the Board of Health is unprofessional, anti-scientific and absurd.
16
My neighbor had one that got loose and crawled down a heat pipe while I was on vacation and it did about a grand of damage to my apartment. Ferrets carry rabies and are at constant risk if death or injury because it is their bestie to crawl into small spaces.
3
Considering that cats and dogs do more harm, sometimes even lethal harm, it makes no sense to ban the lowly ferret. The members who abstained made fools of themselves, those who voted to maintain the ban have joined Rudolph Giuliani as the laughing stock among New York's officials.
13
animal lovers? no animal exploiters. Breeeding ferrets for exploitation. leave them alone. we exploit enough animals in pets shops. They don't make the ideal pets. stop the madness.
11
Banned ferrets?...sounds like a monty python sketch
7
Lemurs will be next. Followed by tribbles.
4
Budgies next...
1
Tribbles? That's troubling.
2
I trust the experts on climate. I trust the experts on tobacco. I trust the experts on vaccines. And I'm gonna trust the experts on ferrets too. No protests from me.
4
Disgraceful abuse of the term "experts" here. In the first three examples, we understand the great majority of professionals specialized in the study of an issue. But these board of health people, while experts, are generalists, not specialists. And in this case they seem to have been prevented by either prejudice or caution from stating what a specialist would have told them, that lots of people have ferrets as their animal-companions, and they are not dangerous animals, nor are they unhealthy, nor do they pose a danger to others.
5
They have some of the best hearing of any animal out there.
2
The "Paper of Record" cites "The poor track record of ferret-infant relations — bites, injuries, occasional reports of a death..." and can't come up with a single link? Really?
23
I suggest you do a quick search on Google News. Here is the most recent one:
http://www.people.com/article/parents-charged-ferret-attack-baby
http://www.people.com/article/parents-charged-ferret-attack-baby
3
Because it likely not true -- a ferret bite is about on the level of being bitten by a cat ... a very small cat. Maybe a kitten.
I've been around ferrets, and I've been bitten. It's not a big deal. You are about an animal that weighs about 3-4 lbs.
I've been around ferrets, and I've been bitten. It's not a big deal. You are about an animal that weighs about 3-4 lbs.
9
Agree with Concerned Citizen. I've been bitten by a ferret too, and it's a very minor matter.
1
In a city being overrun with rats, I would think ferrets would be welcomed.
14
I have cats, who are all excellent mousers -- but my friend's ferrets put them to shame. It's like comparing a Dodge with a Ferrari.
Ferrets are SUPERB mousers and ratters; they can get into tiny spaces that even a cat cannot get into.
They are ideal city pets, needing very little space and not the exercise needs of even a small lapdog.
The worst part of ferrets is they do have a musky smell, even after descenting. This can be controlled with regular bathing in descenting shampoo.
Ferrets are SUPERB mousers and ratters; they can get into tiny spaces that even a cat cannot get into.
They are ideal city pets, needing very little space and not the exercise needs of even a small lapdog.
The worst part of ferrets is they do have a musky smell, even after descenting. This can be controlled with regular bathing in descenting shampoo.
12
They smell and want to climb inside my sneakers.
4
Since smell guides their activities, what's that say about your sneakers and your feet? You smell too.
4
And what's wrong with that!?!
2
I would be happy to have a ferret in my sneakers.
Any government that does not base it's legislative decisions on modern empirical data is instantly and comprehensively de-legitimized. The continued prohibition of some drugs and bans on largely harmless animals are among the many proofs that we have a long way to go until we have a government we deserve.
8
Not only this is arbitrary and idiotic, New York is nearly alone in their hatred of ferrets.
Pretty much the rest of America has access to ferrets. They are fine pets, and not only good ratters & mousers, but are well suited to apartment living.
Funny, I guess it is OK to keep a huge pit bull or GREAT DANE in a tiny cramped apartment, but not a tiny ferret.
(I love dogs, but I am sure dogs are regularly involved in bite incidents, barking and other mayhem! yet nobody talks about banning DOGS!)
Pretty much the rest of America has access to ferrets. They are fine pets, and not only good ratters & mousers, but are well suited to apartment living.
Funny, I guess it is OK to keep a huge pit bull or GREAT DANE in a tiny cramped apartment, but not a tiny ferret.
(I love dogs, but I am sure dogs are regularly involved in bite incidents, barking and other mayhem! yet nobody talks about banning DOGS!)
18
I vote for banning dogs in urban areas. Its insane. They are cooped up in tiny apartments all day and then en masse urinate and defecate everywhere. People get these bizarre attachments to them, as if they are human. Try being as generous and kind to your neighbors as you are to your dumb animal and the world will be a much better place. All that fascinating sensitivity and emotion your dog shows? It is just the animal mimicing you so you'll think it understands and cares about your human condition, with the result that you will feed it and let it sleep inside. They have learned that trick through the millenia . . . so perhaps they aren't the dumber animal in this picture after all.
"It is just the animal mimicing you so you'll think it understands and cares about your human condition, with the result that you will feed it and let it sleep inside."
Stuff and nonsense. Dogs are social animals and wolves display the same kind of affection within the pack, or when raised by humans.
Stuff and nonsense. Dogs are social animals and wolves display the same kind of affection within the pack, or when raised by humans.
1
I don't think it's fair or funny to undermine Ms. Jasper's struggle. She has taken a stand on an issue that is clearly very close to her heart. There is a great deal of pride to be had in petitioning your local government and succeeding, like she has, in raising awareness about an issue. I wish more people did that.
33
Glad the ban remains. Ferrets are not tame animals.
9
Ferrets are very tame when socialized and cared for correctly. Like any pet, abuse and neglect creates an aggressive animal. Any adverse ferret v infant event is entirely the result of poor/neglectful parenting coupled equally abysmal pet stewardship.
4
Domesticated ferrets generally are.
4
Ferrets have been domesticated for centuries.
3
Why does the state have the power to decide what small animals people can keep as pets? But hey, people keep voting for an ever more intrusive state, so sooner of later something *you* like *will* get banned... and you will have no one to blame but yourself unless you demand less state and not just a different set of people deciding whose turn it is to get regulated a bit more.
3
It does make sense to ban people from keeping obviously wild animals -- tigers, for example. There was an awful tragedy in my state, where some idiot kept tigers and bears and other exotic wildlife -- didn't feed them properly -- and then let them all loose. Nobody was hurt, but all the animals had to be shot and destroyed by police. It was a terrible thing.
But ferrets are TAME domesticated pets, well-suited to living indoors. They are very cute, friendly and sociable animals and children LOVE them.
It's just some weird form of animal bigotry -- like permitting canaries but banning parakeets.
But ferrets are TAME domesticated pets, well-suited to living indoors. They are very cute, friendly and sociable animals and children LOVE them.
It's just some weird form of animal bigotry -- like permitting canaries but banning parakeets.
18
'...But ferrets are TAME domesticated pets...'
They are most assuredly not.
They are most assuredly not.
Alright, so weed is ok, ferrets are not and affordable housing is moving along or not, depending upon the day. Talk about productivity!
We have had ferrets, and they do not bite. They do have a bad smell if their water is not treated--but otherwise they're lovable and playful. However I can see both sides of the issue and respect people having differing, informed positions.
The issue I have is with board members abstaining from voting. How can an official on the board decide not to vote on city matters? They had plenty of time to review and become reasonably informed---the only reason for abstaining is political--putting their own political position ahead of serving the public. Perhaps public service is not their calling, and they should remove themselves from the board and allow someone who is interested in public service to take their seat.
The issue I have is with board members abstaining from voting. How can an official on the board decide not to vote on city matters? They had plenty of time to review and become reasonably informed---the only reason for abstaining is political--putting their own political position ahead of serving the public. Perhaps public service is not their calling, and they should remove themselves from the board and allow someone who is interested in public service to take their seat.
47
Well, the ferrets I once had bit, and hard. I've also seen a documentary on PBS about ferrets and their fanciers and, according to the film, ferrets bite hard enough to draw blood, which comported with my own experience. They showed the aftermath of ferret bites in the film, which was actually sympathetic to ferrets and ferret keepers. And so I'm not sure which I should trust, my own experiences and that film or Billy From Brooklyn.
They're public officials. Why vote, if you can abstain?
1
They've bitten small children? Does this board realize there's numerous well-publicized cases of dogs attacking and killing adults? Why aren't dogs banned?
40
I have dogs, cats, parakeets and a large Amazon parrot. I get bitten on a regular basis. I am pretty hardened to it.
The reality is that pets are animals and animals can bite. Especially if scared or stressed or threatened.
We don't ban dogs and cats for biting, and believe me, they do. Of all my pets, the worst bites have come from cats. And scratches! I have scars to prove this.
A large parrot can seriously hurt or even maim you if you are not careful. They can bite off an earlobe or worse!
Yet none of these critters are banned. I'd say on a list of "animals that might hurt you", ferrets would be down there with hamsters and gerbils.
The reality is that pets are animals and animals can bite. Especially if scared or stressed or threatened.
We don't ban dogs and cats for biting, and believe me, they do. Of all my pets, the worst bites have come from cats. And scratches! I have scars to prove this.
A large parrot can seriously hurt or even maim you if you are not careful. They can bite off an earlobe or worse!
Yet none of these critters are banned. I'd say on a list of "animals that might hurt you", ferrets would be down there with hamsters and gerbils.
6
A friend kept a South American spider monkey as a pet for years.
Bites? Bites? Did somebody mention bites?
Bites? Bites? Did somebody mention bites?
A number of dog breeds are commonly banned in cities around the country. And quite a number of breeds are banned by the Housing Authority.
The ferret is not unique. There's quite a long list of banned animals in New York City.
The ferret is not unique. There's quite a long list of banned animals in New York City.
The author's claim of a "poor track record" is not tracked or recorded anywhere. It's precisely the kind of assumption that the health department made while pretending to be scientific. It's fine if you want to exercise caution, but don't act like that's a firm scientific or statistical basis. Instead, just admit that the bias is based on an ick factor and general fear of the animal.
39
An "ick factor".......lol.
We saw how the mayor handled the groundhog last year.......I suspect that the NYC government is not exactly small-animal friendly!
We saw how the mayor handled the groundhog last year.......I suspect that the NYC government is not exactly small-animal friendly!
5
It's not the author's "claim;" it's the author's description of a point at issue in the meeting. You make it sound as if the author is backing those who voted against lifting the ban, rather than simply reporting on what was said. Whatever the outcome (for the record, I think the ban is stupid), I don't see any evidence of bias in the reporting.
Sadly, I think this must come from living an "indoorsy" city lifestyle -- it is possible to live in a city like NYC and be utterly removed from nature, animals, etc. and just live on elevators and inside air conditioning.
This is not a healthy way to live, and I think it makes people fearful of any sort of nature -- things they cannot control. Animals are REAL. They have personalities, they feel fear or anger, hunger or the need to eliminate. They are not decorative pillows you can throw back in the closet if you get bored.
I feel sorry for people who are so uptight they can't enjoy a pet.
This is not a healthy way to live, and I think it makes people fearful of any sort of nature -- things they cannot control. Animals are REAL. They have personalities, they feel fear or anger, hunger or the need to eliminate. They are not decorative pillows you can throw back in the closet if you get bored.
I feel sorry for people who are so uptight they can't enjoy a pet.
2
Five members of the board abstained? Talk about weaseling; what exactly is their purpose on the board if they're going to duck issues? So the ban was upheld because two of ten members voted for it. Incredible.
91
Emerson, you can't count: it was upheld because the vote failed to get 6, or a majority out of 10. You needed 3 more of the 5 who played "duck and cover" in order to prevail.
Another poorly written article by the NY Times: exactly why are ferrets banned? Beats me: they look cute. And if well cared for, I can't see what harm they would cause. They stay in your apartment, yes? you don't take them for a walk on a leash...
Another poorly written article by the NY Times: exactly why are ferrets banned? Beats me: they look cute. And if well cared for, I can't see what harm they would cause. They stay in your apartment, yes? you don't take them for a walk on a leash...
7
"Talk about weaseling..."
I see what you did there...
I see what you did there...
3
“I don’t think I’ve ever been let down by my government this much”
Not to diminish Ms. Jasper's heartbreak, but seriously?
Not to diminish Ms. Jasper's heartbreak, but seriously?
58
Well, yes, because this affects her directly and emotonally. So, seriously.
17
"Not to diminish Ms. Jasper's heartbreak" but then you go on to diminish it anyway. It's like when someone insults you and then says, 'no offense'.
10
It's not the biggest issue in the world, but my god -- it is blitheringly stupid.
What's next? banning poodles? (they might bite!) or parakeets? (might flap tiny wings in your face!)
This is a classic case of government intrusion into something utterly unrelated to public well-being or the ROLE of government in public life.
What's next? banning poodles? (they might bite!) or parakeets? (might flap tiny wings in your face!)
This is a classic case of government intrusion into something utterly unrelated to public well-being or the ROLE of government in public life.
3
This clip never gets old -- in case you missed it the first time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxLP6ni8vVo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxLP6ni8vVo
13
How I have I never seen this? Thanks for making this reader's day!
There are very few times I have agreed with our past Mayor Guiliani but this ferret issue and this guy David in the clip, I have to say Guiliani hit it right square....it would help David to get professional help with his obsession with ferrets. There are so many burning human issues out there I doubt any of these ferret people would spare a dime to help a starving child ...
1
1. Ferrets are NOT wild. Ferrets (Mustela putorious furo) have been domesticated for centuries. This is well documented & affirmed by every major veterinary, zoological, & animal welfare organization, & is debatable to the extent that climate change & evolution are debatable. The endangered black-footed ferret (Mustela nigripes) IS wild, & the similarity in names keeps creating confusion.
2. Over 80% of Americans live where ferrets are permitted. Minneapolis & Dallas both reversed their bans a decade ago with no public health issues resulting, & legalization in Washington DC is pending.
3. Re: Mr. Giuliani's claim regarding the "wisdom" of the Board of Health: none of the Board members has any professional experience of which any of us is aware relevant to ferret husbandry or behavior. Each of them seemed not only unaware of the reams of information submitted in support of the proposal by people who really ARE experts in this area, they seemed not to have informed themselves about ferrets to any extent in advance of this meeting. Considering that the proposal received over 400 public comments (3 or 4 is typical) and attracted intense media interest, this was really stunning to me &, frankly, somewhat shameful.