Threatens to unravel? It has unraveled. In fact it never raveled. Putin never had any intention of adhering to the agreement. It was theater.
4
Fair reporting?
This is the third article in as many days by Mr. Kramer in which he fails to mention that the separatist leaders have said that all the Ukrainian soldiers encircled at Debaltseve would be allowed to return to their side of the front line through an evacuation corridor under the condition that they lay down their arms. It really baffles me how he can fail to mention basic facts that reflect positively on the separatist and Russian side of this conflict. Inversely, he keeps insisting that the fighting around Debaltseve risks to unravel the entire peace process, while ignoring Right Sector and other nationalist neo-nazi groups' outright denial of any peace agreements present or future. Who is really a bigger risk to the peace process here?
This is the third article in as many days by Mr. Kramer in which he fails to mention that the separatist leaders have said that all the Ukrainian soldiers encircled at Debaltseve would be allowed to return to their side of the front line through an evacuation corridor under the condition that they lay down their arms. It really baffles me how he can fail to mention basic facts that reflect positively on the separatist and Russian side of this conflict. Inversely, he keeps insisting that the fighting around Debaltseve risks to unravel the entire peace process, while ignoring Right Sector and other nationalist neo-nazi groups' outright denial of any peace agreements present or future. Who is really a bigger risk to the peace process here?
8
Because forcing a surrender is a violation of the cease-fire and constitutes separatist aggression.
4
As long as Ukraine refuses to cut a deal with the rebels, give them immunity etc., they are not going to stop fighting. It's crazy to expect anything else from the winning side.
Regardless of what the west wishes, Putin is going to create a corridor to Crimea. Ukraine should sell it to them and pay its debt, knowing Russia won't be giving up on access to the Black Sea.
Regardless of what the west wishes, Putin is going to create a corridor to Crimea. Ukraine should sell it to them and pay its debt, knowing Russia won't be giving up on access to the Black Sea.
3
Merkel and Hollande now decidedly have Ukrainian blood on their hands.
It's time for Plan B.
Time to arm Ukraine with every weapon they need to repel the Russian invaders.
And time to hermetically seal Russia from the civilized world. Let them stew in their backwards state!
It's time for Plan B.
Time to arm Ukraine with every weapon they need to repel the Russian invaders.
And time to hermetically seal Russia from the civilized world. Let them stew in their backwards state!
6
Russia's bullying brings us westerners an uneasy choice. On one hand, we'd like to maintain our safety and prosperity by distancing ourselves from the bullies of such grandeur because they might inflict significant damage in the process of handling their tantrums. On the other hand, as they say in Russia, appetite comes while eating, and today's Ukraine might become tomorrow's Baltic states or any other slice of land up to the one time Russia's Alaska. Putin obviously honors no laws, so Polonium poisoning in Britain may become a reality in the US. In the end, facing a bully is just a matter of time, and appeasement isn't always the best strategy, if ever. A strong democratic Ukraine is a one 45-million West-oriented, freedom-minded multi-ethnic ally with the biggest territory in Europe. We have all the rights and obligations to help Ukraine's people maintain their sovereignty and dignity for the sake of the world's peace and security.
12
I think the West brought this uneasy choice by itself, when it decided to use military force to impose its will on other countries. The West could not or should not expect that other countries will not follow the suit. It is difficult to say how democratic Ukraine is while it is shelling hospitals and schools, in exactly same manner as do regimes considered to be “undemocratic”.
2
Putin needs a surgical procedure to re-connect the two sides of his mouth.
3
80 rubles/dollar is the next stop.
4
I'm just wondering where/if Putin will stop. First Georgia. Now Ukraine. Where does he head to next?
3
I guess when the West learn to treat Russia by the standards that the West treat itself. Georgia started the war by breaking the treaty and killing Russian peacekeepers, and yet none of the Western countries voiced their condemnation of Georgia. Western countries were glad to criticize war in Chechnya, but seems like they don't mind that Ukrainian Army bombs schools and hospitals. I guess such adherence to double standards could make Russians somewhat edgy.
8
"Julia MO", please, everyone knows that Russia bears the sole responsibility of attacking and invading the sovereign state of Georgia. Moreover, Russia has turned independent Chechnya to ashes while slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians during the two Chechen wars. By the way, why Russia did not want to grant Chechens their independence? They have overwhelmingly voted for it on a referendum! Looks like Kremlin has double standards, doesn't it?
8
Everybody is who? Because as far as I remember, the post war analysis, even by western analysts, put the responsibility for starting the war on Georgia Although, I should notice, it didn't prevent Western politicians to claim that Russia was responsible, but what else we can expect from politicians. Chechnya was as independent as Novorossiya is now. I don't see the West to advocate independence for Novorossiya. Why expect higher standards from Russia? Especially, if one considers that “independent” Chechny invaded Russia in 1999 what started 2nd Chechnya war. And referendum? In referendum 2003, Chechens approved the new Constitution that stated that Chechnya is a part of Russia.
1
The US unmistakably seeks confrontation with Russia (and beyond, China) to maintain what in fact it has already lost in, now, a multipolar world structure: unilateral global hegemony.
Use of the term "defensive" is laughably hypocritical. Why not be frank: arm the Kiev government to the teeth, place large NATO forces on the Russian border, tighten still further the sanctions regime on Russia--all of which is occurring or soon will.
Disregard the neo-Nazi leadership base of Ukraine. Disregard prior US intervention in facilitating the coup. Disregard the West's (led by the US) attempt to isolate, contain, and ultimately dismember Russia. For what? Market fundamentalism, IMF-World Bank austerity measures? Militarization of world capitalism (again, US-led) is moving on the slippery slope of nuclear war as if Thanatos were in the saddle.
Use of the term "defensive" is laughably hypocritical. Why not be frank: arm the Kiev government to the teeth, place large NATO forces on the Russian border, tighten still further the sanctions regime on Russia--all of which is occurring or soon will.
Disregard the neo-Nazi leadership base of Ukraine. Disregard prior US intervention in facilitating the coup. Disregard the West's (led by the US) attempt to isolate, contain, and ultimately dismember Russia. For what? Market fundamentalism, IMF-World Bank austerity measures? Militarization of world capitalism (again, US-led) is moving on the slippery slope of nuclear war as if Thanatos were in the saddle.
11
No matter how you look at this matter. Russia, as well as Ukraine, are the big losers in this war. The Federation has lost all credibility in the world and is facing financial strangulation. The Russian people are not aware yet of the costs that are coming for their crazy endeavours in the Ukraine, but it will be coming soon. Start looking for demonstrations all over Russia this summer, especially among elderly pensioners who will no longer be able to afford the rising cost of life. Unlike the Russians of the Soviet period, these later generations are used to a certain level of affluence. As well, the good Tsar Putin may have 85% approval ratings, but the government itself is hated by the people. Almost 85% of Russians do not trust their government, and many can see through much of the propaganda. Russia is a very fragile place and Ukraine maybe its graveyard.
2
This should come as no surprise to anybody following Mr. Putin's tactics. You cannot fault Ms. Merkel for trying, but at some point the EU and NATO will need and make tough decisions that go beyond symbolic additional travel restrictions, lest the Russian leadership becomes further emboldened. Today Mr. Putin complained that the US is now supplying the Ukrainian's with weapons. Whatever the truth, we should deny it.
5
The US is supplying Kiev with military aid, financial aid, diplomatic support & encouragement. It would seem the US is meddling much more in Ukraine than is Russia.
5
Whatever has been lost is not likely to be regained either diplomatically or militarily. Putin is smart enough to know that he doesn't really need Kiev, if he gets enough in Western Ukraine the rump that survives in the East will be weak enough that it will not be able to do anything about this fair accompli. As for the rest of us we had better hope that a similar scenario is not played out elsewhere, especially in the Baltic republics.
5
Few people believed Hitler's land grabs were irreversible. I don't see how failing Russia that never produced anything of a quality (contrary to Germany) will be able to keep all those invaded territories of Moldova, Georgia, Chechnya, and Ukraine under current economical and political scrutiny. Once Ukraine is armed and given a fair chance to defend herself, things will calm down and move to the origin of conflict - Kremlin. Russia's oligarchs are getting increasingly impatient with their leader as they have absolutely no interest in expensive land grabs.
3
And what Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine could offer these territories? American weapons? Hardly attractive alternative.
3
What Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine could offer to these territories beside the American weapon?
1
We are edging toward treating Ukraine as a member of NATO, which it isn't. Are we ready to go to war with Russia over Ukraine's border? Surely President Obama doesn't want to, but he is also afraid of appearing weak, and possessing an arrogance born of insecurity, he is surrounded by an inferior staff. A dangerous combination.
Does the administration have an endgame in mind? It has become clear that nothing will force Russia to relinquish its influence over eastern Ukraine. If the U.S. starts supplying lethal aid to Ukraine, then Russia will simply up the ante and step up its weapon deliveries to the separatists. The status quo on the battlefield will not change. What will change is the number of casualties and the amount of overall suffering caused by the conflict. Russia can match or negate any military assistance we can possibly provide to Ukraine. Furthermore, Russia has the advantage of being able to use its own troops, which eliminates the need for training and allows for much faster deployment of sophisticated weapons.
Does the administration have an endgame in mind? It has become clear that nothing will force Russia to relinquish its influence over eastern Ukraine. If the U.S. starts supplying lethal aid to Ukraine, then Russia will simply up the ante and step up its weapon deliveries to the separatists. The status quo on the battlefield will not change. What will change is the number of casualties and the amount of overall suffering caused by the conflict. Russia can match or negate any military assistance we can possibly provide to Ukraine. Furthermore, Russia has the advantage of being able to use its own troops, which eliminates the need for training and allows for much faster deployment of sophisticated weapons.
12
Nobody's going "to war with Russia". Moreover, Putin says "there's no Russian troops in Ukraine" - why would there be a war then? Putin also says it's "a civil war" in Ukraine. Also, Ukraine so far calls it as an "anti-terror operation". Ukraine has a right to purchase any weapon since it is the first nation in human history giving away nukes to Russia, US and GB, under their Budapest Memorandum Guarantees. Will Russia go to war with the US over selling weapons to Israel? Surely they did not and will not, and they did not attack Baltic states for even joining NATO. So, stay calm and arm Ukraine.
4
Of course, Ukraine is an independent state, but so were Iraq and Serbia at time of their invasion. And until you prosecute the occupation forces of these country, you have no case to prosecute Russia. I guess the rules of game were changed while you were sleeping.
6
Julia, Ukraine's 45 million people will not wait for any "prosecutions" of the past they have nothing to do with. They live today in their own country which they, with the help of their allies, will defend against Russia's aggression.
1
There was an interesting comment on the Ukrainian situation from The Vinyard of the Saker which is known for its excellence reporting and refreshing views.
"Yet another monumental failure for the junta"
"Amazingly, the freaks in Kiev as still insisting that there is no cauldron but only a "bridgehead". The good news is that apparently nobody buys that nonsense any more and the mothers and wifes of the men caught in the cauldron are trying everything they can to force the Ukie high command to accept the Novorussian offer of an evacuation corridor. The try to protest in front of the General Staff building in Kiev, then the blocked traffic. In a particularly poignant moment one of these women put a megaphone next to a cellphone to amplify the voice of her son/husband calling from the cauldron and announcing that they had for about 3 hours of supplies left."
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2015/02/yet-another-monumental-failure...
"Yet another monumental failure for the junta"
"Amazingly, the freaks in Kiev as still insisting that there is no cauldron but only a "bridgehead". The good news is that apparently nobody buys that nonsense any more and the mothers and wifes of the men caught in the cauldron are trying everything they can to force the Ukie high command to accept the Novorussian offer of an evacuation corridor. The try to protest in front of the General Staff building in Kiev, then the blocked traffic. In a particularly poignant moment one of these women put a megaphone next to a cellphone to amplify the voice of her son/husband calling from the cauldron and announcing that they had for about 3 hours of supplies left."
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2015/02/yet-another-monumental-failure...
9
No blog which refers to the government of Ukraine as a junta or seemingly recognizes the spurious "Novorussia" is involved in anything involving excellence in reporting. Your assertion that it is known for such is without any substantiation.
5
How come every single place US and the allies get involved in becomes a terrible mess? You name it: Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine, Egypt, Yemen, etc. One failure and one miscalculation after another. And please don't pass this off as George Bush, as Obama is now a war president also.
The United States has refused to recognize Russia's traditional interests in Ukraine. Apparently there is the Monroe Doctrine to protect our interests in the Western Hampshire, but Russia gets the same old cold war policy of a "ring of steel". We have recruited Nato membership among the former Eastern Block, tried to surround Russia with missiles, and shamelessly interfered with Ukrainian domestic politics - all of them failures.
The United States has refused to recognize Russia's traditional interests in Ukraine. Apparently there is the Monroe Doctrine to protect our interests in the Western Hampshire, but Russia gets the same old cold war policy of a "ring of steel". We have recruited Nato membership among the former Eastern Block, tried to surround Russia with missiles, and shamelessly interfered with Ukrainian domestic politics - all of them failures.
16
Ukraine is an independent sovereign democratic state. There are no special "Russia's traditional interests" in this country. Moreover, any interests of any foreign entity or state in Ukraine are defined by the international laws and the Constitution of Ukraine. Any violation of international laws, treaties and memorandums should be prosecuted, hence sanctions and overwhelming international condemnation of Russia's aggression in Ukraine.
6
For all of you who have been now and then talking about Victoria Nuland. Der Spiegel came out with a critiques on her and her role in the Ukrainian conflict. A must read for anyone interested in this conflict.
"Victoria Nuland: America's riot-diplomat"
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/victoria-nuland-barack-obamas-prob...
"Victoria Nuland: America's riot-diplomat"
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/victoria-nuland-barack-obamas-prob...
8
The greatest, and unforgivable, strategic mistake Ukraine made was to dismantle its nuclear weapons facilities. Had it kept it, it would have been safe. It's as simple as that.
There is a lesson here for the Iranians too. Once they have nuclear weapons, they are forever safe from Israelis and Saudis alike. Our shirtless friend has made it clear yet again that pursuing nuclear weapons is the rational thing to do.
There is a lesson here for the Iranians too. Once they have nuclear weapons, they are forever safe from Israelis and Saudis alike. Our shirtless friend has made it clear yet again that pursuing nuclear weapons is the rational thing to do.
6
Very good observation indeed. Russia, Great Britain and the U.S. promised to respect and guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity in return for Ukraine giving away its world's 3rd nuclear stockpile. Russia violated, attacked, and invaded 20 years after signing the deal. Will the other parties stick to the Budapest Memorandum guarantees? How does this whole ordeal of attacking an unarmed and peaceful state of 45 million people even serve the purpose of nuclear non-proliferation?
2
Sorry Ukraine never had a nuclear arsenal to "surrender". When the Soviet Union was disbanded in 1991 Russian forces remained in physical and operational control of all atomic weapons both in the Russian republic and in neighboring newly independent states such as Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, etc. It simply took the Russian military several years to withdraw all their armed forces and weapons, both nuclear and conventional, from the "Near Abroad" as the Russians call these border regions. The Western propaganda machine keeps repeating this lie over and over again that Ukraine gave up her nuclear weapons in exchange for the so called "Budapest Memorandum" that guaranteed her borders. This was no more than an informal agreement among the "Great Powers" designed to bring peace and stability and a sense of security to Ukraine---which it did until the recent illegal coup in Kiev installed a war monger regime and began a whole chain of events that has led to the continuous ongoing conflict between the western and eastern parts of Ukraine.
9
The Iranians learned that lesson from the North Koreans, Pakistanis, Indians and yes Israelis a long time ago.
The Ukrainian government never had functional control over the nukes in their territory, so giving them up was meaningless.
The Ukrainian government never had functional control over the nukes in their territory, so giving them up was meaningless.
3
Europe is paying the ultimate price for ignoring centuries long truth: "Ci vis pacem para bellum". After Cold War, Europe de facto dismissed its armed forces hoping that if you do not have army it will be peace. However this approach did not work. Now Russian president is laughing sending troops and military equipment knowing about Europe's military impotence. Economic sanctions? Triple ha-ha-ha! Russia is an Eastern country. East recognize force and force only.
3
I guess that is the problem. The West thinks that the East understands only force, but the East thinks that the West understands only force. And lately, the East has it reasons – Iraq, Serbia and even Afghanistan are all examples of use of force by the West in lieu of diplomacy.
3
I wonder if after Debaltseve Ms Merkel still believes Ukraine must remain defenseless and unarmed because -according to her - no military solution to the conflict is possible.
Sadly, contrary to this cynical and hypocritical argument, a military solution is much more feasible as long as Ukraine's military is ill-equipped. Who said that the unarmed cannot be killed by those who do have arms up to their teeth? Is it not a military solution ?
Sadly, contrary to this cynical and hypocritical argument, a military solution is much more feasible as long as Ukraine's military is ill-equipped. Who said that the unarmed cannot be killed by those who do have arms up to their teeth? Is it not a military solution ?
7
she's speaking and acting with her hand out, along with the French President who actually doesn't want any sanctions-- just a pat on the back and "Thank You Sir, may i have another".
It's well past time for the US and western European countries to start providing defensive weapons and intelligence information to the democratically elected Ukrainian government. Putin's promises don't even last a day, and if he takes over the whole country, it'll be WW3 - take a look at the map and see how many NATO countries border Ukraine. I don't think Poland will sit still having the Russian army at their doorstep, and given the history of the last year, I don't think that's impossible, or even unlikely. The longer we wait, the harder it will be to deal with Putin's quest to dominate Europe.
5
Russian's actions in its borders is nothing in comparison with US and EU dealing with Yugoslavia, which was totally bombed (nothing with rebels and so), Lybia, Iraq, almost Syria...These countries was destroyed at all by US and now somebody is trying to punish Russia for their actions when their former region is going to take NATO bases and rockets against Moscow? And this deserves sanctions and even a war using american weapon?.. OK, guys. This hypocrisy will be ended on russian borders, for sure.
15
Poroshenko hasn't been instructed by Victoria Nuland yet on what to do. Poroshenko doesn't seem to understand that Ukranian lives are of little consequence to the US State Department.
20
Poroshenko's guilt is simply playing by the rules of the international law; that's where Putin is clearly a winner: he doesn't care. Everyone should've seen it coming.
7
Very similar to the Syrian situation when we and the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey tried to change a peaceful protest in Homs to a sectarian war which has so far consumed almost 200,000 lives, and gave us ISIS
Are we so dense or do not care about lives of human beings to understand that ALL human lives matter. The armchair policy makers/commenters need to send their children in battle and then their comments would ring true, right now they are just hollow.
War has never been the answer in any conflict. You teach/brain wash children with video games and killing machines and then question, how come there is so much violence in the world?
Where are all the anthropologist/sociologist gone from our midst? Why are they so quiet that we do not hear them?
Is it not time for them to let our policy makers know that WAR is never the answer.
Let PEACE prevail. It is difficult, but for sure Saner of the two choices.
Even if it means we lost; sometimes you win by losing when your values survives.
Are we so dense or do not care about lives of human beings to understand that ALL human lives matter. The armchair policy makers/commenters need to send their children in battle and then their comments would ring true, right now they are just hollow.
War has never been the answer in any conflict. You teach/brain wash children with video games and killing machines and then question, how come there is so much violence in the world?
Where are all the anthropologist/sociologist gone from our midst? Why are they so quiet that we do not hear them?
Is it not time for them to let our policy makers know that WAR is never the answer.
Let PEACE prevail. It is difficult, but for sure Saner of the two choices.
Even if it means we lost; sometimes you win by losing when your values survives.
14
If only Putin would read your appeal and follow it. Alas, that will never happen. So, arm Ukraine, and more sanctions for Russia. Banning Kremlin from SWIFT is a good start.
6
Perhaps the US and EU should emulate Putin's actions and denials by declaring that they, too, are not providing advisors and/or weapons to the Ukrainians. At the same time, in contrast to Russia, they should state that they are not permitting US or EU soldiers to take their vacations by fighting in Ukraine.
6
"Fighting Is Fierce in Ukrainian Town Despite Cease-Fire"
If there is fighting going on, there is no cease fire.
If there is fighting going on, there is no cease fire.
3
And also this: https://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/16/corporate-interests-behind-ukraine...
Corporate interests caused these troubles it appears.
Corporate interests caused these troubles it appears.
9
Well, a few local causes also. Ethnic, cultural, historical, linguistic with full replication of the above in oligarch division and competition up to oligarchic government. No wonder there is not just suppression of the defeated supporters of the oligarch/president Yanukovich, but division of the spoils also. Woe to the vanquished - Vae victis!
And on the top of it those foreign corporate interests, EU and NATO, Russia and NATO expansion...
And on the top of it those foreign corporate interests, EU and NATO, Russia and NATO expansion...
1
Poroshenko has bigger problems than Debaltseve. Even if this peace deal miraculously survives, I don't think Poroshenko will survive filling his top government posts with foreign nationals. The the ultra nationalists, that Kiev has been depending on to fill it's National guard ranks, will turn on Kiev at some point over the appointments. Perhaps we will see maidan 2.0 this year.
The only choice he has now is to pull the troops out. Debaltseve is already lost. No amount of weapons sent to Ukraine will help Poroshenko. The problem is not a lack of weapons; it is a lack of Ukrainians willing to use the weapons against their countrymen. Ukrainians are fleeing the draft by the thousands and desertion has been a major problem since the fighting began.
I'm not trying to make a political statement. Just stating my opinion of the realities Ukraine faces.
The only choice he has now is to pull the troops out. Debaltseve is already lost. No amount of weapons sent to Ukraine will help Poroshenko. The problem is not a lack of weapons; it is a lack of Ukrainians willing to use the weapons against their countrymen. Ukrainians are fleeing the draft by the thousands and desertion has been a major problem since the fighting began.
I'm not trying to make a political statement. Just stating my opinion of the realities Ukraine faces.
21
@Timmy
You say Ukraine has nobody to fight, but Ukrainian forces have held out for weeks in Debaltseve and the Donetsk Airport against superior forces under withering fire. Ukraine did lose both, but holding out under such pressure for that long from superior Russian fire takes true fighting spirit.
During the summer before Russia significantly increased its direct and indirect involvement in Ukraine, Ukrainian forces had driven back Russia-backed separatists and seemed to be on the verge of victory until Russia pushed Ukraine back.
Ukraine seems to have plenty of fighting spirit but lacks the ability to counter the might of their much larger neighbor.
You say Ukraine has nobody to fight, but Ukrainian forces have held out for weeks in Debaltseve and the Donetsk Airport against superior forces under withering fire. Ukraine did lose both, but holding out under such pressure for that long from superior Russian fire takes true fighting spirit.
During the summer before Russia significantly increased its direct and indirect involvement in Ukraine, Ukrainian forces had driven back Russia-backed separatists and seemed to be on the verge of victory until Russia pushed Ukraine back.
Ukraine seems to have plenty of fighting spirit but lacks the ability to counter the might of their much larger neighbor.
11
As I said previously, I'm not making a political statement. I respect your opinion of their fighting spirit, but the fact that the latest rounds of draft summons have been an abysmal failure is well documented.
6
He cannot pull his troops out now. It is way past that, Debaltsevo is surrounded by the rebels who would only agree to let Ukrainian troops out without their weapons. The best Poroshenko could do is to agree to that condition, but is unlikely to survive such a humiliation and keep power. So he will sacrifice those soldiers for his political life. After they run out of ammunition and food they will be forced to surrender anyhow, but at a cost of hundreds more unnecessary deaths.
3
Putin is essentially testing how far will the West allow him to go. If he can take apart Ukraine, how will NATO respond when little green men start to appear in Lithuania and Estonia?
It is just a matter of time that Russian speaking minorities demand their 'rights' to 'self-determination'.
As for the the 'rebels', many will return to their Motherland. The locals will try to eek a living in an unrecognized thuggocracy dependent on Russian aid. Is it really worth it?
It is just a matter of time that Russian speaking minorities demand their 'rights' to 'self-determination'.
As for the the 'rebels', many will return to their Motherland. The locals will try to eek a living in an unrecognized thuggocracy dependent on Russian aid. Is it really worth it?
12
Let's be honest: There's no way in the world that Obama is going to commit the USA to a war with Russia over Lithuania or Estonia. I'm not sure he would stop an invasion of Poland. Obama isn't even able to put together an effective war effort against Islamic State. If Islamic State is the "JV", what is Russia?
2
Let's be honest...... let be just clever enough to realize that USA has the mandatory obligation to defend Estonia and Lituania, Poland ect.... since they are NATO Members.
3
Ukraine is a nation of some 45 million people that has little oil, gave away nukes in 1994, never invaded any country, is now under a brutal invasion of a hybrid nature, which involves local militants supplied and controlled by Russia, Russian citizens armed and trained by Russia to “volunteer” in offensive against Ukraine, and Russian armed forces and operatives. Ukraine has been shelled by the heaviest artillery and rockets from both Russia’s territory and within the Russia-occupied territory of East Ukraine. All the instances of Russia’s aggression are well documented and confirmed, including the downing of the civilian airliner MH17. The problem is, Russia seems as too big of a bully to try to deter from the blatant violations of the international laws and to prosecute Kremlin for its many crimes against humanity committed in Ukraine, Georgia, and Chechnya. So, the question is, are Ukrainians going to stand on their own against Russia’s overwhelming force? Are we back to 1939 when appeasing Hitler led to the greatest genocide and destruction in the history of the humanity? Why are we appeasing Putin today?
12
You say Ukraine never invaded any country. In fact, Ukraine was part of the "coalition of the willing" that invaded Iraq in 2003. As Dick Cheney said, "we did it because we could." Now Ukraine is on the receiving end of the same logic...
11
Ukraine invaded Russia hundred of years ago .. As a matter of fact , some of the czar were Ukrainian ..
2
Actually, invading or provoking an invasion, or contributing to an invasion is a crime against humanity as recognized by the UN charter. Technically, Putin could be hanged, like Tojo and like the Emperor of Japan should have been. But, then again, that could also, logically, be the fate of Dick Cheney and George Bush.
3
The U.S. has just announced that "a proxy war with Russia over Eastern Ukraine is not in the interests of Ukraine or of the world". That would certainly cool the minds of the Right Wing government in Kiev who has hopes there would be a WWIII on their behalf. Now let things fall back where they were. That will certainly serve the interests of all Ukrainians, while it would give time to the hotheads in Kiev to cool their heads down.
If they want a war with Russia, they can have it themselves, but the world won't fight one on their behalf. Nikos Retsos, retire professor, Chicago
If they want a war with Russia, they can have it themselves, but the world won't fight one on their behalf. Nikos Retsos, retire professor, Chicago
20
What about the Budapest Memorandum, Professor?
5
Nikos - US says one thing in public, and a different one in private to Poroshenko. And the US already shipping 'defensive' killing machines to Kiev. And the investigation into MH17 and snipers who killed about a hundred of Maidan protesters are totally stalled.
US also shows some 'satellite photos' with a quality from pre-Cuban crisis and tries to fool the public they proves something, like the Russian involvement in Ukraine.
US Dept of Truth in full swing.
US also shows some 'satellite photos' with a quality from pre-Cuban crisis and tries to fool the public they proves something, like the Russian involvement in Ukraine.
US Dept of Truth in full swing.
1
"Alex from stanford, ca", those satellites launched a while ago are still providing decent military intel, and they aren't exactly designed for the Vogue magazine photoshoots. Today's UN Council unequivocally mentioned "no amnesty for MH17 perpetrators" when addressing Russian aggression. Lots of Maidan regime riot police and, surely, their Russian colleagues, quickly fled either to Russia or to the Russia-occupied Crimea along with the former regime functionaries. So your accusations of the US are groundless and pathetic.
3
This is a military victory for Russia - incurred at enormous cost to Russia's economy & Russia's international reputation.
European anger at the Kremlin is growing while the sanctions have hurt their economy. The most ambitious Russians continue to leave. And even Russia's allies in the Eurasians Union have not supported them.
Russians have once again started to leave Russia, and the corruption is only getting worse, as the government tightens its grip on the economy.
I think Putin will soon learn what Cheney and Bush learned in the early years of this century - that wars of aggression come with all sorts of unexpected costs.
European anger at the Kremlin is growing while the sanctions have hurt their economy. The most ambitious Russians continue to leave. And even Russia's allies in the Eurasians Union have not supported them.
Russians have once again started to leave Russia, and the corruption is only getting worse, as the government tightens its grip on the economy.
I think Putin will soon learn what Cheney and Bush learned in the early years of this century - that wars of aggression come with all sorts of unexpected costs.
7
Putin is a liar who see peace talk as just a way to win time and resupply his troops. The west need to enforce hard-biting sanctions, the kind that will really hurt the russian economy.
10
The separatists seem determined to recapture Debaltseve, which was in their hands between April and July 2014 and ignore the ceasefire agreement. The town has strategic value, linking their two strongholds, Donetsk and Luhansk by rail.
Kiev sees also little advantage of observing the Minsk peace deal because Ukrainian forces have to retreat from ground they were fighting for during the rebels' recent advance, while the separatists only pull back from the ceasefire line as defined by the last September deal.
Putin on his visit to Budapest told the Hungarian audience that the breach of ceasefire hasn't surprised him, putting the blame on Kiev.
His cynical remark regarding the 300 soldiers was: "I hope that the Ukrainian authorities are not going to prevent the Ukrainian soldiers from laying down their weapons," adding that they should be allowed to return to their families if they gave themselves up.
Yet Kiev said: "the situation looks different"!
It's difficult for us to confirm all these claims.
Kiev sees also little advantage of observing the Minsk peace deal because Ukrainian forces have to retreat from ground they were fighting for during the rebels' recent advance, while the separatists only pull back from the ceasefire line as defined by the last September deal.
Putin on his visit to Budapest told the Hungarian audience that the breach of ceasefire hasn't surprised him, putting the blame on Kiev.
His cynical remark regarding the 300 soldiers was: "I hope that the Ukrainian authorities are not going to prevent the Ukrainian soldiers from laying down their weapons," adding that they should be allowed to return to their families if they gave themselves up.
Yet Kiev said: "the situation looks different"!
It's difficult for us to confirm all these claims.
5
Interesting analysis here on the future
"Ukraine's President Is Trapped With His Troops"
"There is no good way out for the Ukrainian president. All he can do now is try to save his soldiers' lives and hope Putin is satisfied with winning one last military victory in his hybrid war before the conflict is effectively frozen until the end of this year. What happens next turns on whether the Ukrainian leader can stifle his pride and put his political support in jeopardy by taking a plunge into uncertainty."
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-17/ukraine-s-president-is-...
I think there is no doubt that the war party in Kiev (Yatsenyuk, Turchinov, and Tymoshenko) would boot Poroshenko out of office, which is why he is clinging on so disparately. I have read that there are already protests in Kiev from Mothers demanding that Poroshenko agree to the surrender so the troops can be save. I read that there are about 5000 men trapped in there.
"Ukraine's President Is Trapped With His Troops"
"There is no good way out for the Ukrainian president. All he can do now is try to save his soldiers' lives and hope Putin is satisfied with winning one last military victory in his hybrid war before the conflict is effectively frozen until the end of this year. What happens next turns on whether the Ukrainian leader can stifle his pride and put his political support in jeopardy by taking a plunge into uncertainty."
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-17/ukraine-s-president-is-...
I think there is no doubt that the war party in Kiev (Yatsenyuk, Turchinov, and Tymoshenko) would boot Poroshenko out of office, which is why he is clinging on so disparately. I have read that there are already protests in Kiev from Mothers demanding that Poroshenko agree to the surrender so the troops can be save. I read that there are about 5000 men trapped in there.
17
And all of that is the direct result of the actions of the imperialist Chekist regime in your favorite country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism
5
Judyw,
Considering so many of your sources of information are Kremlin propaganda sites, I must take any and all of your comments with a very large grain of salt.
'From what I've read' from you rarely ever leads to the truth.
And if there are mothers in Kiev protesting, at least they can.
Here in Moscow, the dead soldiers from Ukraine are buried in the middle of the night with no recognition for their service. Those mothers don't even get to publicly acknowledge the deaths of their sons. Unlike in Kiev.
Considering so many of your sources of information are Kremlin propaganda sites, I must take any and all of your comments with a very large grain of salt.
'From what I've read' from you rarely ever leads to the truth.
And if there are mothers in Kiev protesting, at least they can.
Here in Moscow, the dead soldiers from Ukraine are buried in the middle of the night with no recognition for their service. Those mothers don't even get to publicly acknowledge the deaths of their sons. Unlike in Kiev.
16
Judyw: you have persistently encouraged NYTs readers to see this conflict from the Russian point of view. Your sudden interest in the mothers of Ukrainian soldiers does not impress this reader. This is the unmistakable smack of propaganda, in my opinion.
Putin's lies stand more naked than ever if he proceeds to a slaughter of the patriots who defend their land.
Putin's lies stand more naked than ever if he proceeds to a slaughter of the patriots who defend their land.
17
Putin is a liar and evil man. We know that so let's act accordingly. It's a shame that one little man's lust for power can result in the killing of so many foolish Russian pawns and so many brave Ukrainian patriots.
19
Why then are the Russian people pawns and foolish, and the Ukrainians (western only) patriotic and brave? Seems like this just points out how you are completely biased, and thus your prejudiced view cannot be taken as accurate.
Everyone currently involved in this war is an idiot, for warring over things that could have been solved through negotiation. See, that's not biased in the slightest, and furthermore, it's true.
Everyone currently involved in this war is an idiot, for warring over things that could have been solved through negotiation. See, that's not biased in the slightest, and furthermore, it's true.
14
Dan: I am concerned that you draw a moral equivalency between frank Russian aggression and Ukrainians' right to self defence. You spin events in Ukraine to suit your bias. We agree that questions of autonomy and self determination should be decided peaceably, without resort to violence. In Canada and the UK, nationalist movements seek change democratically, through the ballot box. Subversion of the rule of law, and violent terror campaign as carried out by the FLQ in Quebec in the 60s, and the IRA over 3 decades are not acceptable methods of achieving self determination.
The conflict is not between "Ukrainians (western only)" and all other Ukrainians. The vast majority of Ukrainians, including ethnically Russian, are united in wanting to preserve their independence and right to self determination; regardless of your animus toward their rights in that respect. Nor should they have to submit to their larger bullying neighbour. If an American government decided to impose homophobic policies on its own population (like Russia's current government) and similarly impose them on Canada, I would not tolerate it, and the majority of my compatriots would also resist.
It is fine to say it is all nonsense and any and all differences should be negotiated peacefully. I agree. Unfortunately, the Russian thugs and mercenaries did not choose the democratic path... they reached for guns and rocket launchers, and conducted campaigns of torture and murder.
The conflict is not between "Ukrainians (western only)" and all other Ukrainians. The vast majority of Ukrainians, including ethnically Russian, are united in wanting to preserve their independence and right to self determination; regardless of your animus toward their rights in that respect. Nor should they have to submit to their larger bullying neighbour. If an American government decided to impose homophobic policies on its own population (like Russia's current government) and similarly impose them on Canada, I would not tolerate it, and the majority of my compatriots would also resist.
It is fine to say it is all nonsense and any and all differences should be negotiated peacefully. I agree. Unfortunately, the Russian thugs and mercenaries did not choose the democratic path... they reached for guns and rocket launchers, and conducted campaigns of torture and murder.
6
All the dealing and wheeling in Minsk, was for nought. There was not even ONE day of ceasefire. All the time,diplomacy and money went down the drain. There was not even a pretense of a ceasefire. Europe thought diplomacy would work but everything went Putin's way. He will not rest until he annexes Eastern Ukraine or perhaps the whole of Ukraine. When he lands up on the border of Western Europe will they realize their folly. Hopefully, we will not get involved. Let the Europeans put up a fight. The whole world thinks we have to do their dirty jobs. Sorry! Rich Europe must defend itself. We'll do our bit to help them - TIGHTEN SANCTIONS until Putin is gasping for air.
9
By the way, mild correction, the idiom is "wheeling and dealing" for some reason. It's like they always say its raining cats and dogs, but never that it's raining dogs and cats. Idioms are weird like this, they're definitely not as easy as cake, nor a piece of pie.
Anyway I don't see a need to fight this one either, or for anyone to. It truly doesn't matter for most of the world how things turn out in Ukraine. Ukraine kicked the bear awake, a bear that was leaving them pretty much alone, and now they get to suffer the consequences, and this isn't our fight.
Anyway I don't see a need to fight this one either, or for anyone to. It truly doesn't matter for most of the world how things turn out in Ukraine. Ukraine kicked the bear awake, a bear that was leaving them pretty much alone, and now they get to suffer the consequences, and this isn't our fight.
7
Dan Stackhouse, people said the same thing about the remilitarization of the Rhineland, the Anschluss in Austria, and the absorption of Czechoslovakia. Will you be saying the same thing when Putin send volunteers into the Baltic states or Poland?
The bear, as you so cutely term it, has broken every agreement it has ever entered, including the one where it recognized the independent nation of Ukraine.
The bear, as you so cutely term it, has broken every agreement it has ever entered, including the one where it recognized the independent nation of Ukraine.
11
@Dan Stackhouse
Ukraine did not kick the bear, it simply refused to let the bear dictate its foreign policy. Putin essentially pressured his client Yanukovich into rejecting the EU deal--that is hardly the bear leaving them alone.
Ukraine did not kick the bear, it simply refused to let the bear dictate its foreign policy. Putin essentially pressured his client Yanukovich into rejecting the EU deal--that is hardly the bear leaving them alone.
9
This was predictable and many politicians and officials from various countries did accurately predict Russia would use the ceasefire to continue to grab more territory.
The 64 thousand dollar question is: Has Merkel, Hollande and the EU learned the right lessons from this to handle diplomacy with Russia?
Negotiating with Putin's out-dated realpolitik strategy, that also includes using military force to suit his interests, requires a credible threat of force or Putin will just continue to switch between diplomacy and military attacks to achieve his aims while using Europe's adherence to international law and norms against them.
The 64 thousand dollar question is: Has Merkel, Hollande and the EU learned the right lessons from this to handle diplomacy with Russia?
Negotiating with Putin's out-dated realpolitik strategy, that also includes using military force to suit his interests, requires a credible threat of force or Putin will just continue to switch between diplomacy and military attacks to achieve his aims while using Europe's adherence to international law and norms against them.
8
The unfolding predictable (and predicted) debacle in Debaltseve gets me to thinking about the composition of the Ukrainian government and the military brass. Just to give you a taste, the Ukrainian finance minister is a former American investment banker and State Department official Natalie Jaresko. The head of Ukraine's International Advisory Council on Reforms is Mikheil Saakashvili, former president of Georgia, currently resident of Brooklyn. Saakashvili is wanted by Georgia's current government on multiple criminal charges, including corruption. Ukraine will probably soon need to replace some of its military leadership. (Someone has to answer for Debaltseve.) I think they should talk to David Petraeus. Ukraine clearly needs someone like him, and he may be growing a bit restless in retirement...
12
Was anyone really naive enough to believe Put in would observe the cease fire? It is just a tactic to delay our response.
5
Poroshenko has a lot to answer for. With his military disaster in Debaltseve unfolding surely he will now consider negotiations with the Russian speaking people of the Donbas rather than trying to subdue them with his war machine. Without assistance from Russia we would have seen the East Ukrainians suffer as did the people of Kosova whom the Serbs were brutalizing until the US/NATO stepped in.
12
@James Livingston
Nobody in the Ukrainian General Staff has to pay for the Debaltseve when the debacle had nothing to do with Ukraine but everything to do with Russia-backed separatists violating the hours old ceasefire.
Secondly, there hasn't been any cases of "ethnic cleansing" in Ukraine, despite all of the Russian propaganda, and you miss the real heart of the problem. Russia is directly involved in undermining the sovereignty of a peaceful and independent Ukraine.
Nobody in the Ukrainian General Staff has to pay for the Debaltseve when the debacle had nothing to do with Ukraine but everything to do with Russia-backed separatists violating the hours old ceasefire.
Secondly, there hasn't been any cases of "ethnic cleansing" in Ukraine, despite all of the Russian propaganda, and you miss the real heart of the problem. Russia is directly involved in undermining the sovereignty of a peaceful and independent Ukraine.
11
Awful man. Has the hide to defend his country from foreign attack and fifth columnists. As for those poor East Ukrainians who just want to join Mother Russia, he has the gall to stand in their way. Oh for God's sake get real. It was never anything to do with East Ukraine and all to do with Mr Putin. Interesting to see that the only person who bought that story lives in New Zealand
10
This "ceasefire" from the Russians seems as reliable as the last one, and the talk about no russian solders in Chimera. They are full of it and won't stop until the divide Ukraine in half. Frankly, at this point the Russians might as well take over the whole country. It isn't like Europe, the US, or any one else are going to do anything else meaningful to that would stop them. Which at least as far as the US is concerned, I think is the correct choice.
4
Ah, yes. The ole cease-fire without firing actually ceasing.
Fareed Zakaria says arming Ukraine will only provoke the Kremlin. But hasn't it already been provoked? "Who believes the Ukrainians can actually defeat the Russians," he asks, rhetorically. But people defending their homelands can achieve remarkable things, and, besides, he would've said the same thing about Afghanistan. (I doubt Ukraine will become a haven for Islamists.) He says that those who deem economic sanctions ineffective claim, by extension, that Vladimir Putin is irrational. Do they? Personally, I accept that Putin is "rational," but not that he is primarily motivated by economic or national security concerns. According to the Tsar, "Ukraine is not even a country." Novorossiya and all that.
Zakaria also says that helping Putin's prey defend itself will be no hindrance to Putin. Yes, because not helping it has been so fruitful. . . . Why would an irrational actor, he asks, respond to a supposedly unserious military threat when he won't respond to sanctions that ravage Russia? But the point is not what Putin will or will not hypothetically respond to; the point is, What will force him to alter course? The best answer: lots of Russian bodybags being sent home AND crippling economic sanctions.
Anne Applebaum thinks this may end with a demilitarized zone and entail a kind of neo-"Berlin Wall," and that perhaps we'll have to do with western Ukraine what we did with West Germany. Not inconceivable, that.
Fareed Zakaria says arming Ukraine will only provoke the Kremlin. But hasn't it already been provoked? "Who believes the Ukrainians can actually defeat the Russians," he asks, rhetorically. But people defending their homelands can achieve remarkable things, and, besides, he would've said the same thing about Afghanistan. (I doubt Ukraine will become a haven for Islamists.) He says that those who deem economic sanctions ineffective claim, by extension, that Vladimir Putin is irrational. Do they? Personally, I accept that Putin is "rational," but not that he is primarily motivated by economic or national security concerns. According to the Tsar, "Ukraine is not even a country." Novorossiya and all that.
Zakaria also says that helping Putin's prey defend itself will be no hindrance to Putin. Yes, because not helping it has been so fruitful. . . . Why would an irrational actor, he asks, respond to a supposedly unserious military threat when he won't respond to sanctions that ravage Russia? But the point is not what Putin will or will not hypothetically respond to; the point is, What will force him to alter course? The best answer: lots of Russian bodybags being sent home AND crippling economic sanctions.
Anne Applebaum thinks this may end with a demilitarized zone and entail a kind of neo-"Berlin Wall," and that perhaps we'll have to do with western Ukraine what we did with West Germany. Not inconceivable, that.
9
The question is whether the EU (especially Germany) will throw Ukraine under the bus in order to continue getting cheap oil and gas from Russia. For the sake of every country that was once part of the Soviet Union I pray that the EU comes to its senses and joins the US in arming Ukraine with lethal weapons.
If the EU fails to do so we will enter a dangerous new paradigm in which any country bordering Russia will have to fear that should they not tow Putin's line, he will respond by sending in his little green men to start a covert war and destabilize their country.
If the EU fails to do so we will enter a dangerous new paradigm in which any country bordering Russia will have to fear that should they not tow Putin's line, he will respond by sending in his little green men to start a covert war and destabilize their country.
5
my sediments exactly- cheap oil, gas, and trade.. $$$$ blinding them into caving into Putin's demands and sacrificing Ukraine's independence bid from Russia's grasp.
6
The cease fire is holding - everyone knew that Debaltseve was still contested. Look at the map published yesterday - it is like a hole or panhandle extending deep into the region otherwise controlled by the rebels. Its certainly too bad that neither side seemed willing to give up on this town, but it is easy to see why the rebels want it. Blaming either side is infantile - there is a real dispute regarding this area. If you want to promote peace, instead of urging the US to send arms (opposed by 80% of Germans according to a poll reported last week), the US might encourage Kiev to withdraw from this area that otherwise is under rebel control. But no, like in the case of Israel, the US provocatively backs its "allies" however stupid their positions may be, and in the case of Israel, completely illegal. If only our government would grow up and admit that other parties have legitimate interests where everything is not black and white, winner take all, and so on. But perhaps, like Israel, the US considers itself the "Chosen People" who have the right to demonize others and fanatically pursue their interest at any cost.
8
Debaltseve was contested as with the other places, so please, don't isolate this one particular town, its included with all the other territories. Those rebels declared it out of the cease fire terms no one else, except maybe Putin. The cease fire terms, if all inclusive, means that the rebels are guilty, if not, then Merkel and her stooges botched it.
10
With all due respect, a big part of the problem I think is reflected in your comment - being dismissive of Putin as well as the rebels, as if their interests aren't a factor, while those of Europe and the US are paramount. With this kind of attitude, the conflict will never be resolved because the whole discussion is one sided.
7
Daniel you sound like Putin's Parrot. Putin can take his war machine back to Russia and then discuss his concerns.
10
How did a bunch of rebels get all those heavy weapons, Russian tanks, etc?
7
http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article136800724/OSZE-Chef-ist-Behind...
English translation:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/01/29/osce-leader-is-tired-of-restraints...
OSCE Secretary General Zannier complains about the lack of cooperation from Russia..
..We would like to enlarge our presence..to the..border. The separatists, though, are blocking this..
..The separatists don’t allow us to move freely..they only take us where they want us to be..two checkpoints within the radius of 2 kilometres at a border that has 400 kilometres..the separatists got a fresh supply of equipment..also heavy weaponry. They don’t get these weapons from Ukraine and they also didn’t capture them. The only other option is that those weapons must come across the Russian border..
English translation:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/01/29/osce-leader-is-tired-of-restraints...
OSCE Secretary General Zannier complains about the lack of cooperation from Russia..
..We would like to enlarge our presence..to the..border. The separatists, though, are blocking this..
..The separatists don’t allow us to move freely..they only take us where they want us to be..two checkpoints within the radius of 2 kilometres at a border that has 400 kilometres..the separatists got a fresh supply of equipment..also heavy weaponry. They don’t get these weapons from Ukraine and they also didn’t capture them. The only other option is that those weapons must come across the Russian border..
10
@Jay Casey
There is no question, outside of Russia at least, how the rebels have continued to replace and add heavy weapons and armor, keep a steady supply of fuel, munitions and money and have the know-how to use weapon systems that require extensive training. This conflict in Ukraine would not exist or be able to continue without Moscow hand providing and guiding separatists.
There is no question, outside of Russia at least, how the rebels have continued to replace and add heavy weapons and armor, keep a steady supply of fuel, munitions and money and have the know-how to use weapon systems that require extensive training. This conflict in Ukraine would not exist or be able to continue without Moscow hand providing and guiding separatists.
11
Dear Jay,
Mostly from Russia, although some were actually in Ukraine to begin with. All of Ukraine's weaponry is of Russian manufacture except a few things they've made recently, and the rebels have seized Ukrainian equipment. But all the better stuff comes direct from Russia, like the anti-aircraft missile systems they shot down that Malaysian civilian plane with.
Mostly from Russia, although some were actually in Ukraine to begin with. All of Ukraine's weaponry is of Russian manufacture except a few things they've made recently, and the rebels have seized Ukrainian equipment. But all the better stuff comes direct from Russia, like the anti-aircraft missile systems they shot down that Malaysian civilian plane with.
6
I've been wondering for sometime now and no one has discussed this , but just who is paying these "Rebels"? I mean, they're not doing this fighting for free, these so- called Russian "Volunteers" , who is providing them with their spiffy new uniforms, their ammo? By now those captured Ukrainian arms are depleted, so Putin must be providing them with arms and a paycheck, no other place, no one else could afford it. With regards to this ceasefire , Merkel and Co. must be the most incompetent negotiators if they forgot to include Debaltseve in their talks. If they did, then the Rebels are indeed violating the terms of the cease fire. The Ukrainian pilot- Prosohenko says she was to be freed, then the Russians say no, what the hell? Incompetents, Bozos at the negotiating table, Three Stooges signing the documents- all worthless. This war ain't ending anytime soon, not with these "skilled" diplomats doing the talking.
12
Lou: Your question is a good one as to who is financing the rebels. Presently it is the Russians with their "humanitarian" convoys. However, its a combination of sad, ironic, and illuminating chutzpah that one of the chief demands of the LPR and DPR leadership is their insistence that Kyiv reinstate all social subsidies to the regions. It's one of Russia's demands too. Lavrov never fails to repeat it. Thus, Ukraine is asked to finance a war that is being levied against it by those who are committing the aggression. I'm not sure there has ever been such a precedent in human history? As if the Confederacy had demanded that the Union finance its war effort during the American civil war.
10
Jeff- there must be a lot of Rubles on those trucks besides blankets and canned food. Something smells but the Europeans seemed to have plugged their noses when the trucks drive by.
7
No Kiev is being asked to pay pensions for which it had already collected the money. Even a Kiev court ruled that the pensions must be paid.
5
Where is the UN in all of this? Russia has clearly violated Ukraine's sovereignty first off by providing Ukranian "separatists" with weapons and technical assistance, if not soldiers, to take Crimea. Now, Russia/Putin wants that portion of eastern Ukraine that gives him more access to ports. Why hasn't the UN at the very least strongly condemned Putin's violation of international law?
11
The question you should ask if where UN is during Euromaiden? US blocked UN involvement and deferred the event to NATO Allies, clearly had a military tone to it from the beginning. It was overthrown a government on the agenda, not peace keeping mission, why you want UN get into this affair?
5
"Where is the UN in all of this?"
UN action comes from the Security Council. Russia is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. It veto any resolution it does not like.
UN action comes from the Security Council. Russia is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. It veto any resolution it does not like.
5
I think all cases of sovereignty violations form a kind of queue somewhere in UN need-t-do list. If so then in last decade America alone gave them a century-worth amount of work.
1
What is to be learned from the current crisis in Ukraine....For some it is Russia cleaning house to impose peace and closer ties in the region toward Moscow... For others, it is a battle to reclaim a stolen identity from Russia and to achieve political, economic and cultural freedoms away from Russia...in essence to be Ukrainians. As the battle rages on, a political solution seems to be the only solution and a bitter pill for Porosenko. To pull the Ukrainian army out would cede more lands to Russian backed terrorists and spell defeat for Porosenko and Ukraine. The Ukrainian Army is dug in; attempting to hold on to what remains of its early victories against the eastern terrorists prior to Russia’s invasion. The cease fire is on paper; Putin showed the world he had brokered a peace deal; but with the continuous fighting and with sophistry, he claims not to have control over his minions in eastern Ukraine. If one side is willing to accept peace the other side sees opportunity to gain more through the guise of peace!
21
What is demanded by the rebels is a federal system where the vast majority living in Eastern Ukraine, culturally and politically aligned with Russia, would have autonomy and respect for their freedoms. But Kiev and the US demand that they yield to Western oriented Ukrainians - and they are willing to kill them to force them to adopt pro-Western values they don't hold. This is persecution, but in the US its just "winner take all." You get 51% of the vote and you can subjugate the other 49%. Many have written about the "Triumphalism" engaged in by the US and much of Europe since the Soviet Union gave up the ghost without the need for a major war. The consequences of that arrogant attitude seem to be more responsible for the current conflict than aggrandizement by Russia.
9
not true- for most of Ukraine's time as an independent nation(1991) its been controlled by those pols from the East, only once(Orange Revolution) was a Western backed pol. in charge as President. So, your theory falls flat., for they had many chances and even had the clout to give themselves a federal system but chose not to . Eastern Ukrainians with pro-Russian ties were in power for the most part since 1991.. no excuses, Putin and his propaganda machine have bet that the West knows little of the past and what transpired and he is right, just read the pro- Russian Rebel-thugs supporters posting here... they don't want the truth to be told of who actually governed Ukraine since 1991.
6
Daniel Yakoubian, San Diego,
It's very interesting that the talk of federalizing Ukraine has only come after Putin has demanded it. Something that he would never allow in his own country.
The people in the east of Ukraine have had over 20 years to demand federalization and they never once demanded such a thing. Not even when Yanukovych, who is from the Dontesk region, was in office.
There is no reason for Ukraine to submit to Russian demands. Especially since the whole war started with Russian aggression first in Crimea and then in the eastern part of Ukraine.
It's very interesting that the talk of federalizing Ukraine has only come after Putin has demanded it. Something that he would never allow in his own country.
The people in the east of Ukraine have had over 20 years to demand federalization and they never once demanded such a thing. Not even when Yanukovych, who is from the Dontesk region, was in office.
There is no reason for Ukraine to submit to Russian demands. Especially since the whole war started with Russian aggression first in Crimea and then in the eastern part of Ukraine.
11
What cease-fire are you referring to? This "agreement" always had about a 15% chance of succeeding, which dropped to less than 5% a few minutes after the ink dried. Russia has no interest in stopping the fighting. So guess what? It will continue until Mr. Putin is convinced he has more to gain from stopping the carnage than from maintaining his present course.
12
I wouldn't be surprised the current Kiev government will hang on for another few years given that US and NATO (Not EU) supports. However, since the EuroMaiden, Kiev lost Crimea, Donbass and Luhansk, that is about a quarter of territory controlled from previous Kiev government. It is a big miscalculation from whoever is funding the EuroMaiden. Pro-US/NATO and Pro-West are different. Ukraine has been freely traded with EU and Russia for the last two decades. Energy and industrial goods from East and consumers goods and services from West, until we want them into NATO, which just like Georgia, it won't happen. Reasonable expectation is to wait until next presidential election (hope it is democratic), Pro-US and Pro-Russia camp will battle out peacefully, then there will be a federation formed without Crimea. Unless of course, we keep pushing Ukraine right-wingers to go offending Russian speaking Ukrainians.
35
This conflict was NEVER about defending Russian speakers in Ukraine. That is Kremlin propaganda.
7
in a few years if the West leaves Ukraine hanging out to dry, what will be the new borders? The Dnieper River will divide the "New Russia" and Ukraine and Odessa the new Stalingrad with regards to fighting. Unless all fighting stops very soon and people disarm this will be a decades long war.
4
I think Russian-Speaking Ukrainians are Ukrainian. However their voice is not heard during and since the Euromaiden, perhaps even since Orange Revolution in 2004. If they think Kiev government is not illegitimate, they are not going to follow.
The truth is that the criminal cabal now in power in Kiev does not want peace. They believe if they continue to attack the separatists that eventually massive amounts of new arms will be sent to them by the U.S. so they can re-conquer eastern Ukraine. In a real cease fire all government troops would be pulled back from the Donbass region, basically a line east and south of the Dnieper and Vorskla rivers. A de-militarized zone of 50 miles wide would be set up and UN troops brought in to patrol the DMZ. Then a real peace conference would be held in a neutral country that would grant complete internal autonomy to eastern Ukraine and cede Crimea to Russia. Referendums would be held in both regions to formally ratify this as the will of the inhabitants. In return Russia would forgive all debts owed by Ukraine and agree to supply oil and gas at a deep discount. Ukraine would declare itself neutral and non-aligned and forswear NATO membership and no foreign troops in the country. Then they could join the EU and be showered with aid money. One final note: Ukraine never possessed a nuclear arsenal. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 all atomic weapons everywhere within the Union were declared the property of the Russian Republic and over several years were removed from the newly independent states, including Ukraine, Belarus, and Georgia, back to Russia. The U.S. meddled in something that was none of our business by guaranteeing Ukraine's "territorial integrity" in a 1994 treaty.
29
The 'criminal cabal?' Is that what the Kremlin Propaganda Office is calling the government in Kiev these days? I can never keep up with the latest terms.
The rest of your comment falls along the same lines. Split up Ukraine. Ignore the Budapest Memorandum. Discredit Ukraine as a country entirely.
Why should Ukraine be forced to do what Russia wants? I am always perplexed by this stance.
The rest of your comment falls along the same lines. Split up Ukraine. Ignore the Budapest Memorandum. Discredit Ukraine as a country entirely.
Why should Ukraine be forced to do what Russia wants? I am always perplexed by this stance.
24
@Rice- do you work for "Ketchum" by chance?.... what you say repeatedly comes out of a PR corp. playbook, along with hints of scripted rants provided by the Kremlin propaganda machine. Just wondering.
5
I am interested in the response of Germany and France to the continued fighting and its view as to whether the cease-fire agreement encompassed these ongoing hostilities. Assuming that the continued fighting is a violation of the agreement (and I have to think that it is) and assuming that the Ukrainian government still wants weaponry from the US (and I have to think that it does), then it is time to impose further economic sanctions on Russia and to provide the Ukrainian government the defensive weapons that it seeks.
I have only over time reached the conclusion that I have reached, and even in retrospect, I believe our response to the provocations in the Ukraine has been prudent and properly measured. But I also believe that it is time to increase the costs to Russia for its outrageous conduct. I understand that short-term Putin gains politically at home by his actions. But let's see whether he can maintain his popularity and power if the costs to Russia for its aggression become higher economically and militarily, and whether Russia might temper its aggression if the Ukraine's power to resist can be materially increased.
I have only over time reached the conclusion that I have reached, and even in retrospect, I believe our response to the provocations in the Ukraine has been prudent and properly measured. But I also believe that it is time to increase the costs to Russia for its outrageous conduct. I understand that short-term Putin gains politically at home by his actions. But let's see whether he can maintain his popularity and power if the costs to Russia for its aggression become higher economically and militarily, and whether Russia might temper its aggression if the Ukraine's power to resist can be materially increased.
37
The problem with the cease fire has been at the negotiating level. Hollande, Merkel, Putin, and Poroshenko can have all the agreements they want but if those fighting don't like it they will continue fighting.
Neither, Merkel, Poroshenko, Hollande or Putin signed anything. The signatories were presented with a document and made to sign it. - the official signature are Kuchma, Plotnitsky, Zakharchenko, and Zurabov. Neither Plotnitsky or Zakharchenko wanted to sign it but I have read that an aide to Putin came out and told them they had to sign it. So they signed it.
The only negotiations that will work are those beween Poroshenko and Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky. But Poroshenko refuses to talk to them so you can't get a valid ceasefire.
Pososhenko needs to get off his high horse and talk to the leaders of the DPR and LPR and work out something.
I understand that the Rada has already said they won't give amnesty to any of the leaders as specified in the agreement, and they don't pass a decentralization law. So lots more problems for this agreement.
But you need to get the actual parties doing the fighting at the table if you want to have any valid ceasefire and settlement in Ukraine.
Neither, Merkel, Poroshenko, Hollande or Putin signed anything. The signatories were presented with a document and made to sign it. - the official signature are Kuchma, Plotnitsky, Zakharchenko, and Zurabov. Neither Plotnitsky or Zakharchenko wanted to sign it but I have read that an aide to Putin came out and told them they had to sign it. So they signed it.
The only negotiations that will work are those beween Poroshenko and Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky. But Poroshenko refuses to talk to them so you can't get a valid ceasefire.
Pososhenko needs to get off his high horse and talk to the leaders of the DPR and LPR and work out something.
I understand that the Rada has already said they won't give amnesty to any of the leaders as specified in the agreement, and they don't pass a decentralization law. So lots more problems for this agreement.
But you need to get the actual parties doing the fighting at the table if you want to have any valid ceasefire and settlement in Ukraine.
16
To me, the irony is that whatever the West does against Putin and his Russia, Putin uses it to solidify his power. The worse their economy gets via sanctions, the more he seems able to rally his supporters behind him. The scary thing is that a wider war, even just supplying arms, involving Europe and the U.S. in support of Ukraine would divert the Russian people's attention away from reigning-in Putin and instead they'd back him as Russia's savior and protector from the 'Fascist' West. How can we and Europe even pretend to believe that Putin has agreed to a cease-fire?
2
Why should Poroshenko 'get off his high horse' and negotiate with a foreign installed military dictatorship in his own country?
Why should there be amnesty for these people who took up arms, with Russia's backing and blessing, against their own government?
Kiev should never surrender to this foreign invasion and those who have supported it should be punished for treason.
Why should there be amnesty for these people who took up arms, with Russia's backing and blessing, against their own government?
Kiev should never surrender to this foreign invasion and those who have supported it should be punished for treason.
9
No doubt lies and face-saving on both sides, just as there can be little doubt that this is exactly what Putin intended - a destabilized, demoralized Ukraine where he can call the shots anytime he likes in any way he pleases. A normal world and a normal peace, internationally agreed-upon borders, free trade, good neighbors and open societies have no attraction precisely because they're legal, above-board and honest. Putin needs the corrupt, the easily blackmailed the criminal and the thuggish. They're his only friends, the ones who stand to gain from his support.
When will Europe stop wishing away this malevolent cancer on its eastern doorstep?
When will Europe stop wishing away this malevolent cancer on its eastern doorstep?
15
You hear different things from each source. However, there is no question that the situation is disparate for those soldiers stuck in the town. I doubt that anything will stop the firing. This will have to be settled on the ground. No amount of words and signed documents will have any effect on the fighting.
Both sides see this as an existential battle, so it will have to play out. What is so stupid is that I understand that during the night of the talks in Minsk, Poroshenko was warned about the situation in Debaltsevo and that was the subject of most of the talks. According to what I have read Putin told him that his troops were encircled and Poroshenko kept going out and calling his general who told him the road was wide open. So now I guess that it really wasn't.
I know what Semen Semenchenko of Donbas Battalion stated that the troops were encircled and he posted it on this Facebook Page.
Semenchenko tried to convince Poroshenko to take measures to remove the blocked parts of the boiler.
http://news.rin.ru/eng/news_text/91381/
Translation of his facebook page is here"
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ec_1423607982
There are rumors that some Kiev troops have already surrendered. But I suspect the fog of war will keep everyone from knowing what is really happening.
Both sides see this as an existential battle, so it will have to play out. What is so stupid is that I understand that during the night of the talks in Minsk, Poroshenko was warned about the situation in Debaltsevo and that was the subject of most of the talks. According to what I have read Putin told him that his troops were encircled and Poroshenko kept going out and calling his general who told him the road was wide open. So now I guess that it really wasn't.
I know what Semen Semenchenko of Donbas Battalion stated that the troops were encircled and he posted it on this Facebook Page.
Semenchenko tried to convince Poroshenko to take measures to remove the blocked parts of the boiler.
http://news.rin.ru/eng/news_text/91381/
Translation of his facebook page is here"
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ec_1423607982
There are rumors that some Kiev troops have already surrendered. But I suspect the fog of war will keep everyone from knowing what is really happening.
8
JudyW: I read below your opinion that the fighting will not stop until Dontesk and Luhansk obtain their independence. My query is, what form of independence is it when the "peoples' republics'" leaders insists on continued subsidies for pensions, banking, social services from Kyiv? A very odd form of independence. When some people in Quebec thought they could pull the same trick in two Canadian referenda, the rest of Canada said: "Fine, you want your independence, forget about keeping the Canadian dollar, Canadian passports and federal transfer payments (from the rest of Canada to Quebec. It had the effect of a cold shower....
9
JudyW, those towns were taken over by Putin hired thugs over the summer, and then they appointed themselves as heads of the gov't. Why no mention of this?- all out in open too. Yet, it seems to be just fine with you for foreign backed goons to do that, but then you rant about supposed foreign backed goons taking over Ukraine's gov't.. doesn't make sense , unless of course..... Kremlin instructed you do do so.
9
In the case of Pension - they are like Pensions everywhere. People had already paid into the pension. TO refuse to pay it is nothing but theft. A Kiev court rules that it must be paid. -- see that a Kiev court ruled that the money was owed to the people.
3
I've said the same thing six months ago. Kiev cannot win this fight and so cannot the US. Force has been tried last September and the Ukranian army, which is mismanaged and has low morale, could not win this war then and cannoy win it now.
The only solution is a partititon of Ukraine that will satisfy both sides. This ultimately means giving up the two seperatist regions Donetsk and Luhansk and holding internationally monitored referendums in the rest. We know the two seperatist regions are de facto independent and will likely never be anything else. It's time to end the bloodshed and stop the hard line stances.
The only solution is a partititon of Ukraine that will satisfy both sides. This ultimately means giving up the two seperatist regions Donetsk and Luhansk and holding internationally monitored referendums in the rest. We know the two seperatist regions are de facto independent and will likely never be anything else. It's time to end the bloodshed and stop the hard line stances.
59
You would give half of Ukraine to Russia just because it has a Chekist tyrant who demands it and even where 90% of eastern Ukraine never wanted separatism and does not want to go to Russia????????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism
7
RL- unacceptable- such the same if the US were to invade Mexico and Mexico not having a chance at winning - seceding Baja or Yucatan.. invaders are invaders and need to be fought.
5
Why don't we have a conference in Munich, wave pieces of paper around and declare "Peace in our Time". We don't, because people have tried that in times past when faced with Ultra nationalism. Arm the Ukrainians to allow them to defend their internationally reconised borders against a megalomaniac representing a potemkin democracy.
6
Debaltseve is obviously needed in a coherent, autonomous region for the ethnic-Russian Ukrainian. Porochenko better start smelling the coffee, in order to retain that region in a federated Ukraine.
With Kiev's extreme right menacing Porochenko for allowing the slightest autonomy at all, Kiev seems to be going for all or nothing. Sadly, they'll probably lose it all.
I cannot believe how Kiev allowed 6,000 of their troops to be encircled.
Is there anyone with common sense in their line of command?
Don't they understand that Russia has no desire, nor need for the ownership of and responsibility for eastern Ukraine? If Putin had wanted it, he would have taken the region months ago.
With Kiev's extreme right menacing Porochenko for allowing the slightest autonomy at all, Kiev seems to be going for all or nothing. Sadly, they'll probably lose it all.
I cannot believe how Kiev allowed 6,000 of their troops to be encircled.
Is there anyone with common sense in their line of command?
Don't they understand that Russia has no desire, nor need for the ownership of and responsibility for eastern Ukraine? If Putin had wanted it, he would have taken the region months ago.
27
"Debaltseve is obviously needed in a coherent, autonomous region for the ethnic-Russian Ukrainian."
Except that, under Minks-2 agreement, Donbass is not getting autonomy. No, there is only one reason to fight for Debaltseve: it is a key to further invasion.
Except that, under Minks-2 agreement, Donbass is not getting autonomy. No, there is only one reason to fight for Debaltseve: it is a key to further invasion.
9
Debaltsevo encirclement was months in making and was openly declared and talked month ago. The issue arose in Minsk, but Poroshenko denied it. "War party" in Kiev have not become softer and there is doubts that Poroshenko himself does not belong to it. It is good to pressure Putin, but the same should be applied to Kiev. Rhetoric from Kiev about "terrorists" did not change a bit, nothing to say about direct talks. How do you make confederation, reunion or peace without even talking to the people who you fighting with?
7
NBO,
Sorry,
I could of sworn that Porochenko had agreed that an autonomous region within a federal Ukraine was part of a future peace.
The only other way for Kiev to maintain control of undivided Ukraine would be for Ukraine's ultra-nationalist paramilitary forces to continue with their original dream of cleansing Ukraine of Ukrainians of Russian origin. Perhaps, with a President McCain, the US could go along with such a project.
Sorry,
I could of sworn that Porochenko had agreed that an autonomous region within a federal Ukraine was part of a future peace.
The only other way for Kiev to maintain control of undivided Ukraine would be for Ukraine's ultra-nationalist paramilitary forces to continue with their original dream of cleansing Ukraine of Ukrainians of Russian origin. Perhaps, with a President McCain, the US could go along with such a project.
2
This is the time for Mr. Obama to snap out of his catatonic state and use the i-word: invasion by Russia.
13
OK, it's an invasion. Everybody knows that, including the president. Then what?
6
"This is the time for Mr. Obama to snap out of his catatonic state and use the i-word: invasion by Russia."
Don't you remember an open mic catching Obama saying "Tell Vladimir that I'll have more flexibility after the election"? Well, Putin took that to mean he had the green light once the election was over.
Don't you remember an open mic catching Obama saying "Tell Vladimir that I'll have more flexibility after the election"? Well, Putin took that to mean he had the green light once the election was over.
3
This cease fire was doomed from the start. Why did the EU delay the cease fire by two days? So Putin and his Russian backed terrorists could kill and devastate the lives of more Ukrainians? So they could seize more territory for his frozen conflict? Did the EU think that suddenly Putin was going to stop lying and suddenly behave like a human being instead of craven sociopath he clearly is? Since before Socchi Putin has consistently lied in his public statements to the West on his intentions and actions in Ukraine and strangely the EU keeps taking his lies at face value. Why??? Putin and his supporters are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians in Ukraine. They are responsible for the shooting down of the civilian aircraft and the death of hundreds of EU citizens. They have behaved like criminals and violated international law since the beginning of this invasion; Russia invaded the sovereign nation of Ukraine. Appeasement didn't work out well for Neville Chamberlain, it will not work out well here. I do not advocate war, but it is already there. A lie must be called a lie, sanctions must have teeth and Ukraine must be supported and allowed to defend itself from this monstrous aggression.
14
Well- stated. Why the EU is so afraid of Putin I cannot fathom. It is time to provide Ukraine with the aid to buy what they need to defend themselves--including arms. Russia/Putin took Crimea. The EU and US wrung their hands and did nothing. Now he is after at least that portion of eastern Ukraine that gives Russia access to ports. And again, the EU and US standby and let thousand of Ukrainian men, women, and children suffer and die. They knew Putin would not honor a second cease fire because he didn't honor the first. Obama, Merkel, and Hollande have the blood of innocent Ukranians on their hands. Shameful.
9
That's what the EU does best. It warns, it talks, it sanctions, it scolds, it clucks it's collective tongue but nobody really pays any attention to it.
5
Wait, Putin told everyone that there would be an immediate cease fire. I guess his message never made it to his Russian backed rebels in Ukraine.
7
Putin actually pressured leaders of the rebels who were present there to sign. From the other side former president of Ukraine also signed. Nobody from Big Four signed nothing. The same was on previous Minsk-1. After that MPs in Ukranian Rada called it not really valid 'cos signatures belong to one "retired" and two "terrorists". As long as this attitude continues nothing will be achieved. This time only presence of the president was the difference, but presence is not enough...
Hi Dan and CK: I'd like to respond to some of your comments.
Dan: While I agree the cease fire was bound to fail, I fault your reasoning. It was because one of the parties to the conflict (who denies/lies about this), namely Putin, was not interested in a cease fire. If respected, it would mean a halt in his war of conquest. Why would he do that when he is winning? I don't think you're a Putin wannabe, except in so far as your repeated prescriptions dictating how people and countries should be divvy upped like you were Molotov or Ribbentrop determining Poland's fate. I agree with your suggestion as to a UN peace keeping force; an improvement on a previous comment suggesting Russia should fulfill this role.
CK: As to your opinion that Ukrainians in the Donbass (& the majority are ethnically Ukrainian) hate other Ukrainians and want to secede, there was little evidence of this (other than street protests) before Russia instigated an artificial rebellion seizing gov't buildings and importing mercenaries. There has been no testing under democratic conditions (like the Scotland referendum), of the residents' collective desires vis a vis their future. 1.5 million, including 1 million internally displaced in Ukraine, are now refugees. How are their voices to be counted?
Finally, something that needs to be admitted. The Ukrainian military leaders should be court-martialed given their collective incompetence. It has been apparent for weeks what was likely to happen in Debaltseve.
Dan: While I agree the cease fire was bound to fail, I fault your reasoning. It was because one of the parties to the conflict (who denies/lies about this), namely Putin, was not interested in a cease fire. If respected, it would mean a halt in his war of conquest. Why would he do that when he is winning? I don't think you're a Putin wannabe, except in so far as your repeated prescriptions dictating how people and countries should be divvy upped like you were Molotov or Ribbentrop determining Poland's fate. I agree with your suggestion as to a UN peace keeping force; an improvement on a previous comment suggesting Russia should fulfill this role.
CK: As to your opinion that Ukrainians in the Donbass (& the majority are ethnically Ukrainian) hate other Ukrainians and want to secede, there was little evidence of this (other than street protests) before Russia instigated an artificial rebellion seizing gov't buildings and importing mercenaries. There has been no testing under democratic conditions (like the Scotland referendum), of the residents' collective desires vis a vis their future. 1.5 million, including 1 million internally displaced in Ukraine, are now refugees. How are their voices to be counted?
Finally, something that needs to be admitted. The Ukrainian military leaders should be court-martialed given their collective incompetence. It has been apparent for weeks what was likely to happen in Debaltseve.
7
Dear J of Toronto,
Glad I spotted your comment, and thanks for the reasonable reply. I think I didn't make myself clear, we actually do not disagree too much. I thought the cease-fire would fail because Russia wasn't getting what it wanted, and Kiev wasn't, and because the people doing the fighting are too committed now to getting revenge on eachother. This is why I believe Russia must be negotiated with directly by its peers in power; the sides in Ukraine are too chaotic and invested in war to do this correctly. When an arrangement has been reached that is acceptable to Russia, and to the U.S. and western Europe, it will be easier to implement it regardless of what Ukrainians want.
And I toss out these ways to split up nations all the time out of contempt for the antiquated notion of sovereignty. If a people are too warlike to live together, as demonstrated all over the Mideast, then they must be physically separated to have peace. The astounding success of the Yugoslavia breakup is what sold me on this notion, and when it's done right, by overwhelming outside force, it always works. It would work here too, and there is nothing holy about the current borders of Ukraine.
Glad I spotted your comment, and thanks for the reasonable reply. I think I didn't make myself clear, we actually do not disagree too much. I thought the cease-fire would fail because Russia wasn't getting what it wanted, and Kiev wasn't, and because the people doing the fighting are too committed now to getting revenge on eachother. This is why I believe Russia must be negotiated with directly by its peers in power; the sides in Ukraine are too chaotic and invested in war to do this correctly. When an arrangement has been reached that is acceptable to Russia, and to the U.S. and western Europe, it will be easier to implement it regardless of what Ukrainians want.
And I toss out these ways to split up nations all the time out of contempt for the antiquated notion of sovereignty. If a people are too warlike to live together, as demonstrated all over the Mideast, then they must be physically separated to have peace. The astounding success of the Yugoslavia breakup is what sold me on this notion, and when it's done right, by overwhelming outside force, it always works. It would work here too, and there is nothing holy about the current borders of Ukraine.
3
I suppose you would have approved if Great Britain had intervened in the American Civil War and separated the warring parties? That would have been an astounding success too right?
2
Dear Mart,
Yes, yes it would. It'd have avoided 600,000 dead and more, and avoided destroying most of the southern U.S. infrastructure, and Great Britain would have enforced the end of slavery as they'd made it illegal long before the civil war. Interesting concept too, it'd make for a neat sci-fi book, alternate history wise.
Yes, yes it would. It'd have avoided 600,000 dead and more, and avoided destroying most of the southern U.S. infrastructure, and Great Britain would have enforced the end of slavery as they'd made it illegal long before the civil war. Interesting concept too, it'd make for a neat sci-fi book, alternate history wise.
3
Debaltseve is not just a rail hub. It used to be the fourth largest in the entire Soviet Union, and it is a direct rail connection to Russia. The strategic value of Debaltseve for attack on Ukraine is enormous: once Russians have this hub, they can supply their army in Ukraine with weapons and ammunition directly by rail, and stop sending hundreds of trucks of "humanitarian convoys".
On the other hand, if Russia did not intend further aggression then Debaltseve is not important and is not worth fighting for. The fact that they concentrated all their efforts on taking this town is the best indicator of their intentions: there will be escalation of war.
This is why Ukraine will fight for this rail station as long as they are able. To surrender Debaltseve is to open ourselves to swift defeat in a much larger war.
I spoke with my sister in Odessa, Ukraine this weekend. Volunteers in my beloved city are cleaning up and retro-fitting WW2 bomb shelters.
Thanks, Germany and France.
On the other hand, if Russia did not intend further aggression then Debaltseve is not important and is not worth fighting for. The fact that they concentrated all their efforts on taking this town is the best indicator of their intentions: there will be escalation of war.
This is why Ukraine will fight for this rail station as long as they are able. To surrender Debaltseve is to open ourselves to swift defeat in a much larger war.
I spoke with my sister in Odessa, Ukraine this weekend. Volunteers in my beloved city are cleaning up and retro-fitting WW2 bomb shelters.
Thanks, Germany and France.
23
Yes NBO, Germany and France and other allies of the current Kiev regime have not honored the sense and practicality of the ancient phrase "Peace through strength." It dates at least to Hadrian in the first century, C.E.
The European et al attempts to support their chosen side of the conflict are desperate measures. The main calculation seems to be a zest for not revealing weakness while the opposite is the natural result.
The European et al attempts to support their chosen side of the conflict are desperate measures. The main calculation seems to be a zest for not revealing weakness while the opposite is the natural result.
1
Let the people of Ukraine solve their own problems. The U.S. is already at war with half the globe while our nation crumbles around us.
34
So they should give in completely to Russia, is what you are implying? Because that is what is going to happen. This is not an internal struggle among Ukrainians, this is Western Ukraine fighting a war against Russia.
3
"So they should give in completely to Russia, is what you are implying? Because that is what is going to happen. This is not an internal struggle among Ukrainians, this is Western Ukraine fighting a war against Russia."
Unfortunately, that is the truth. The other sad truth is that no one is going to help the Ukraine.
Unfortunately, that is the truth. The other sad truth is that no one is going to help the Ukraine.
1
Russia and the rebels demanded a delay in the start of the ceasefire in the hopes that they could capture Debaltseve before then. When it became apparent that wouldn't happen, the rebels began asserting the absurd position that the ceasefire didn't apply to Debaltseve. Just more evidence of the kind of people who are the self-appointed leaders of the DNR.
Nevertheless, a quick end to all of the fighting still needs to be everyone's goal. Given that Debaltseve is at the tip of a finger sticking into rebel-held territory, it seems that a withdrawal of Ukrainian forces is the logical course of action. At this point a lasting ceasefire is more important than holding Debaltseve, and in any event the Ukrainian forces do not appear to have a realistic plan for driving back the rebel/Russian forces. Surrendering Debaltseve may be unpalatable, but the alternative is the total destruction of the city. Of course, this also requires the rebel/Russian forces to guaranty a safe withdrawal of government forces in Debaltseve, which so far they have been unwilling to do.
Nevertheless, a quick end to all of the fighting still needs to be everyone's goal. Given that Debaltseve is at the tip of a finger sticking into rebel-held territory, it seems that a withdrawal of Ukrainian forces is the logical course of action. At this point a lasting ceasefire is more important than holding Debaltseve, and in any event the Ukrainian forces do not appear to have a realistic plan for driving back the rebel/Russian forces. Surrendering Debaltseve may be unpalatable, but the alternative is the total destruction of the city. Of course, this also requires the rebel/Russian forces to guaranty a safe withdrawal of government forces in Debaltseve, which so far they have been unwilling to do.
11
I wouldn't be surprised in the Kiev regime finds itself the target of large anti-government protests in the coming weeks and months. No matter where you stand politically -- whether you accept the legitimacy of the Poroshenko government or not, whether you think the separatist rebellion that followed last year's rightist coup was justified or not -- it was certainly a foolish and cruel decision on Kiev's part to sacrifice needlessly the lives of so many Ukrainian soldiers in Debaltseve once it became obvious that they had no hope of holding on to the besieged town more than a week ago in the face of the rebel onslaught.
62
Its only foolish to someone living comfortably in Chicago. It is not foolish to a Ukrainian soldier and patriot who wants to defend his country from a Russian invasion. He is willing to die even when he knows he is outgunned and no country will come to Ukraine's aid.
If France had not come to George Washington's aid, the American Revolution
would have failed.
If France had not come to George Washington's aid, the American Revolution
would have failed.
32
You reveal your leanings very clearly and early on.
The election of Poroshenko could not be more legitimate. It's certainly more legitimate than the Russian appointed military dictatorship in the Donbas, that's for sure.
And there was no coup and it certainly wasn't a 'rightist' protest.
And it's not the rebels that are inflicting pain and death on Ukrainians in the east. It's Russian forces. That much should be obvious by now.
The election of Poroshenko could not be more legitimate. It's certainly more legitimate than the Russian appointed military dictatorship in the Donbas, that's for sure.
And there was no coup and it certainly wasn't a 'rightist' protest.
And it's not the rebels that are inflicting pain and death on Ukrainians in the east. It's Russian forces. That much should be obvious by now.
46
I've been reading they are only waiting for Spring to throw Poroshenko & Yatsenyuk out.
3
The only options that makes sense is to give up at let Putin continue his march into Eastern Europe or actively participate. The US could quickly destroy an over-extended line of supply if we ignore borders, as our enemy has, and hit Russia itself.
3
You are obviously not a rocket scientist when it comes to foreign affairs, military strategy, international relations and proper EU/US-Russia relations.
11
hahaha, the U.S. hit Russia itself? Well sure, if you want a civilization-destroying nuclear war, which would be the certain result. I'd say all of Ukraine and a lot of other things are just not worth causing much of the northern hemisphere to be rendered lifeless for thousands of years.
15
Another victim of Putin Derangement Syndrome. Btw that "overextended supply line" is about 75 miles long, lol.
6
Why are the rebels doing this? They are clearly attacking a town after the Peace went into effect. They are not even waiting for it to surrender if reports are true its surrounded.
I want to know what the Russian reaction to this is. Are they silently letting it happen or are the Russians not happy. It would tell allot about their level of control on the armed groups.
Maybe the calculation is that even if the town falls Kiev will still want peace and the rebels would have secured the road and railway link so Donetsk can be resupplied. Militarily but also with humanitarian aid since the only one currently allowed to arrive is thru Russia and is exclusively Russian or German.
But this fighting will mean more sanctions for Russia, maybe the fact that the EU placed new sanctions on Russia a day after the Peace was signed signaled that he Hawk countries will always push for more non respecting peace developments..... this is the Russian response - either way you will place sanctions so we will show you that our actions wont be guided by them.
I want to know what the Russian reaction to this is. Are they silently letting it happen or are the Russians not happy. It would tell allot about their level of control on the armed groups.
Maybe the calculation is that even if the town falls Kiev will still want peace and the rebels would have secured the road and railway link so Donetsk can be resupplied. Militarily but also with humanitarian aid since the only one currently allowed to arrive is thru Russia and is exclusively Russian or German.
But this fighting will mean more sanctions for Russia, maybe the fact that the EU placed new sanctions on Russia a day after the Peace was signed signaled that he Hawk countries will always push for more non respecting peace developments..... this is the Russian response - either way you will place sanctions so we will show you that our actions wont be guided by them.
3
What is the Russian reaction to this? The Russians are attacking. What do you think that their reaction would be. There are no real rebels in Ukraine. There are some Ukrainians who are Russian proxies (i.e., just do what Moscow wants). The rest are Russian irregular and likely regular units fighting with Russian weapons for the prolonged glory of Russian and their Russian Orthodox faith.
19
The Russian proxy rebels were going to conquer Debaltseve come heck or high water and new peace treaty or not - as it is highway and rail junction not just between Donetsk and Lugansk but also the direct rail and highway link to Rostov, Russia where much of the Russian supplies to the rebels come from. Now the Kremlin will be able to train in the supplies and armaments for it's proxy rebels at a hundred times the rate as was done by truck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism
37
If by Russians you mean the Russian people, they only know what the Kremlin owned TV tells them to know.
If by Russians you mean the Kremlin, they know exactly what they are doing. They are fighting a proxy war against Ukraine to keep it unstable so that it cannot progress like its other eastern European counterparts.
A free, independent and prosperous Ukraine is more of a threat to Putin's power than anything else, including Ukraine in NATO.
If Russians were to see Ukrainians become wealthier and happier and more Western in thinking, that would be the end of Putin.
If by Russians you mean the Kremlin, they know exactly what they are doing. They are fighting a proxy war against Ukraine to keep it unstable so that it cannot progress like its other eastern European counterparts.
A free, independent and prosperous Ukraine is more of a threat to Putin's power than anything else, including Ukraine in NATO.
If Russians were to see Ukrainians become wealthier and happier and more Western in thinking, that would be the end of Putin.
9
Why escalate this fight when we should just let the heads of corporations that want "in" do the fighting among themselves. Let's arm them and let them go fo it.
13
Please provide the *exact* identities and locations of these "heads of corporations" and proof of what you claim about them.
7
Because that will result in more civilians dead and not achieve any better results.
1
appeasement failed,
so america, in concession on our failed attempt, we (europeans) have a plea,
send a lot of fancy stuff, that can discreetly turn tanks and rocketlauncher to dented tincans.
so america, in concession on our failed attempt, we (europeans) have a plea,
send a lot of fancy stuff, that can discreetly turn tanks and rocketlauncher to dented tincans.
7
With all due respect, why are you not directing your plea to the German government and/or NATO forces?
8
This has nothing to do with the US. This is an EU problem and the EU must learn to solve their own problems by themselves.
2
We have no anti-tank rockets that can break the armor of a T72-b3.
We have tanks that can do that, but we can't send them in.
We are providing protection vest, night sight devices, communication, but that's not enough.
We have tanks that can do that, but we can't send them in.
We are providing protection vest, night sight devices, communication, but that's not enough.
5
Ah yes, as I recall, when this cease fire was announced I stridently insisted it wouldn't work and fighting would resume immediately, if it stopped at all. As usual people claimed I was Putin himself; I don't suppose I'll see them apologize to me in this round of commentary.
So I'll say it again. The U.S., NATO, Russia, and anyone else who wants to play ball, have got to work out terms on how Ukraine is to be divided up and managed. This worked wonders for Yugoslavia, and Germany after WWII (well, West Germany did OK), and it's working for East Timor and South Sudan after a fashion. It's the only remedy here, these people have to be divided with U.N. forces patrolling the border for a decade or so, in order to have peace. And that division must be acceptable to the U.S. and Russia both, everyone in Ukraine will just have to learn to deal with it. So long as anyone from either section can emigrate to the other, or anywhere else, I don't see as how it's a terrible fate.
Now feel free to shout me down and call me a Putin apologist, even though I keep saying I think assassinating him is a decent path forward for Russia. Just bear in mind that I was right about this useless cease-fire, and I'm still right now.
So I'll say it again. The U.S., NATO, Russia, and anyone else who wants to play ball, have got to work out terms on how Ukraine is to be divided up and managed. This worked wonders for Yugoslavia, and Germany after WWII (well, West Germany did OK), and it's working for East Timor and South Sudan after a fashion. It's the only remedy here, these people have to be divided with U.N. forces patrolling the border for a decade or so, in order to have peace. And that division must be acceptable to the U.S. and Russia both, everyone in Ukraine will just have to learn to deal with it. So long as anyone from either section can emigrate to the other, or anywhere else, I don't see as how it's a terrible fate.
Now feel free to shout me down and call me a Putin apologist, even though I keep saying I think assassinating him is a decent path forward for Russia. Just bear in mind that I was right about this useless cease-fire, and I'm still right now.
14
Why should Ukraine give up territory when it was invaded by a foreign country?
Nothing about this war in Ukraine has to do with this part of the country wanting independence from Ukraine. It's all been a Russian ploy to dismember Ukraine and, more importantly, to give Russia a desperately needed land connection to the isolated Crimean peninsula.
That's what this war has been about all along.
If the people of the Donbas region really wanted out of Ukraine, don't you think they would have been agitating for it since Ukrainian independence in 1991?
Or, if they wanted more autonomy, shouldn't Yanukovych, who is from the Donbas region, have given it to them?
Russia should not be rewarded for its invasion of Ukraine.
Nothing about this war in Ukraine has to do with this part of the country wanting independence from Ukraine. It's all been a Russian ploy to dismember Ukraine and, more importantly, to give Russia a desperately needed land connection to the isolated Crimean peninsula.
That's what this war has been about all along.
If the people of the Donbas region really wanted out of Ukraine, don't you think they would have been agitating for it since Ukrainian independence in 1991?
Or, if they wanted more autonomy, shouldn't Yanukovych, who is from the Donbas region, have given it to them?
Russia should not be rewarded for its invasion of Ukraine.
54
You are *not* right at all re the ceasefire. You just failed to take note of the *facts* which are this: the Russian proxy rebels were not going to stop no matter what ceasefire agreement as it relates to Debaltseve as that town is the main and direct rail and highway link between Donetsk and Lugansk - and Rostov, Russia where most of the rebels military supplies come from.
You need to quit with all the cowardly hysterics of appeasement with respect to the rest of eastern Ukraine - outside the currently held rebel areas (and large parts within) the people never wanted any separatism or to go to Russia.
Any efforts towards further territorial conquests by the Russian proxies should result in the following at a minimum:
1. Revocation of Russia's Most Favored Nation trading status.
2. Cancellation of Russia's ability to use the Swift Financial Settlement system.
3. Massive supplying of Ukraine with modern anti tank, anti artillery and anti battery armaments to prevent further land conquests by the rebels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism
You need to quit with all the cowardly hysterics of appeasement with respect to the rest of eastern Ukraine - outside the currently held rebel areas (and large parts within) the people never wanted any separatism or to go to Russia.
Any efforts towards further territorial conquests by the Russian proxies should result in the following at a minimum:
1. Revocation of Russia's Most Favored Nation trading status.
2. Cancellation of Russia's ability to use the Swift Financial Settlement system.
3. Massive supplying of Ukraine with modern anti tank, anti artillery and anti battery armaments to prevent further land conquests by the rebels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism
14
You are correct - there must be a division. Until Donetsk and Luhansk get some form of independence they will not stop fighting. Sure there will be truces for a few days but then as you say the fighting will resume. Too much blood has been spilt for there ever to be a unified Ukraine again. Better to make the split know as you suggest and save a lot of lives.
6
Why am I not surprised. Too many readers here, like Merkel and Hollande cheered another ceasefire. Putin cheered too - after all, ceasefire, break-ceasefire and expand territory, ceasefire again is his go-to strategy.
The only solution is to provide arms, including hundreds of anti-tank Javelins, to Ukraine. You can't negotiate with no chips - it's Negotiation 101.
The only solution is to provide arms, including hundreds of anti-tank Javelins, to Ukraine. You can't negotiate with no chips - it's Negotiation 101.
13
According to Putin's logic, peace travels further when fired from a rocket launcher.
41
Actually Putin is the only logical player here. People like Merkel probably tell Obama, "We have to tell Poroshenko to stop his assault on the Donbass" to which Obama replies, "We'll tell him in private." Meanwhile people die.
The military management by Putin so far is brilliant. Especially his reserve, he's let the Ukrainian Russians do their own liberation, it's remarkable, he will come out of this as a winner, a hero, smelling like a rose.
The military management by Putin so far is brilliant. Especially his reserve, he's let the Ukrainian Russians do their own liberation, it's remarkable, he will come out of this as a winner, a hero, smelling like a rose.
7
You are seriously disturbed if you think Putin is a hero. He is quickly tallying up enough blood on his conscience with his wars of aggression to compete with Milosevic; he even murders his own people when it suits his lust for power, (his FSB bloody planted apartment bombing pretexts for the 2nd Chechen war that cost hundreds of innocent Russian civilian lives) before 10s of thousands of innocent Chechen civilians were murdered.
9
The general idea is that Russian Ukrainians set upon by the government in Kiev have as a goal to, "liberate the Donbass."
People should by now know what is referred to by, "Donbass," the Don River basin, an area once referred to in Soviet posters as "the heart of Russia," an area that is largely Russian speaking, and that did not support the Maidan/coup or disassociation with Russia. This is the area of Ukraine that the first new Parliament in Kiev targeted, when it's first action was to pass laws limiting the Russian language.
I once asked a friend what was meant by the Law of Unintended Consequences, he told me, "that they happen." The figment that this conflict in the Donbass is a Russian invention is Western propaganda. It is in fact born of a reaction by a tough minded Ukrainian/Russian ethnic group to having their culture assaulted by a Kiev government clearly underestimating the consequences. Once Kiev became violent vs the Ukrainian Russians, this became war.
These surrounded Ukrainian solders will have to surrender or worse. This war could have been avoided had Keiv been less radical. This is a remarkable video that speaks to the people of the Donbass in this conflict:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GzOaIXnkPs
People should by now know what is referred to by, "Donbass," the Don River basin, an area once referred to in Soviet posters as "the heart of Russia," an area that is largely Russian speaking, and that did not support the Maidan/coup or disassociation with Russia. This is the area of Ukraine that the first new Parliament in Kiev targeted, when it's first action was to pass laws limiting the Russian language.
I once asked a friend what was meant by the Law of Unintended Consequences, he told me, "that they happen." The figment that this conflict in the Donbass is a Russian invention is Western propaganda. It is in fact born of a reaction by a tough minded Ukrainian/Russian ethnic group to having their culture assaulted by a Kiev government clearly underestimating the consequences. Once Kiev became violent vs the Ukrainian Russians, this became war.
These surrounded Ukrainian solders will have to surrender or worse. This war could have been avoided had Keiv been less radical. This is a remarkable video that speaks to the people of the Donbass in this conflict:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GzOaIXnkPs
42
Thank you, Comrade!
How bravely the people's army is as it sneaks in and out of Ukraine in pursuit of liberating the courageous socialists people of Ukraine.
How bravely the people's army is as it sneaks in and out of Ukraine in pursuit of liberating the courageous socialists people of Ukraine.
13
please list in which ways Kiev is too radical.
12
This war could have been avoided if the Kyev government had federalized. The US and EU support federalzation everywhere - and notably in Iraq - but the Ukraine. Ironically, the centralized system in the Ukraine which the West now defends is a copy of the centralzed system in Russia initiated by Putin that the West condemned. The ironies of this fight are many: for instance, while, supposedly, the Ukranians want back Crmea, Crimea has consistently provided the margin for the Party of the Regions that is pro-Russian, and would do so again. Putin, by annexing Crimea, effectively made the Russian speaking population of Ukraine crucially smaller than West Ukraine's population. Naturally, then, Ukraine will orient itself to Europe. Federalization would allow Eastern Ukraine, which violently opposes that orientation, to remain within the Ukraine but buffer the effects of the European orientation. Pretty simple.
5
I don't really see why there was a meeting in Minsk in the first place. If you have a party that is untruthful, there's no basis for negotiations. About the only thing one can count on is that the opposite of what is said is true.
"There are no Russian tanks in the Ukraine" = There are Russian tanks in the Ukraine
"We will adhere to the cease fire" = we will not adhere to the cease fire.
It was a pointless exercise, and I'm sure most people saw that coming - so what was the point?
"There are no Russian tanks in the Ukraine" = There are Russian tanks in the Ukraine
"We will adhere to the cease fire" = we will not adhere to the cease fire.
It was a pointless exercise, and I'm sure most people saw that coming - so what was the point?
7
The Chinese "annexed" Tibet in 1959 and they still hold it. This Russian move towards the Ukraine is the same story, different countries. So many have died in these kind of events, over 1 million Tibetans! Who but an insane leader would initiate these type of events. More violence is not the answer, increased economic pressure must be used until it is PROVEN ineffective. War provokes the insane.
10
I agree with your statement. Yet, Ukraine has a limited means to protect itself. We, I mean the US, signed Budapest memorandum promising support for Ukraine's sovereignty and we should supply them with means to fight for their freedom. Incidentally, those 19yo Ukrainian conscript boys are fighting for our freedom as well. Putin will not stop after conquering Ukraine. We have to come to realize that.
I am sure Mr Poroshenko aim for peace, he does whatever he can to ensure real cease-fire. Mr. Putin is the culprit here. We should kick his teeth - the only language he understands.
I am sure Mr Poroshenko aim for peace, he does whatever he can to ensure real cease-fire. Mr. Putin is the culprit here. We should kick his teeth - the only language he understands.
9
Honestly, I don't think Russian wants to annexed Ukraine at all for any reasons. They want a neutral buffer between NATO countries at its boarder. We already put missiles in Poland, technically less than 5 minutes flight time to hit Russia. Putin makes a distinction betwen Pro-US and Pro-West. Ukraine has been freely traded with EU and Russian in the last two decades, until we sent Victoria Nuland to upend the table. Obviously German and France don't like what we do in Ukraine, to mess up the fragile but stable eastern Europe.
15
Well, it looks like Russia did not abide by its cease-fire and started to immediately order its troops and proxies to take out the nearly (or completely) encircled Debaltseve. The Ukrainian military and high command is very much to blame here for falling for this trap and sacrificing the lives of many of its soldiers along with a ridiculous amount of weapons. The Russian media is already reporting that the Ukrainians are violating the ceasefire and that the Russians had to respond to "protect civilians: (where have I heard that before). Of course, the fact that the artillery is clobbering the Ukrainians now speaks the opposite.
This is a sad day. This is also further proof that the US and EU needs to sanction Russians more important than their version of Barry Manilow. Of course, Russia should be cut off from SWIFT. The US should acknowledge that Russian forces are fighting on the ground (the amount of T-72B3s seen in Ukraine is staggering). Finally, the US should give Ukraine all sorts of fun weapons built for the sole purpose of destroying Russian tanks, soldiers, and rocket launchers.
This is a sad day. This is also further proof that the US and EU needs to sanction Russians more important than their version of Barry Manilow. Of course, Russia should be cut off from SWIFT. The US should acknowledge that Russian forces are fighting on the ground (the amount of T-72B3s seen in Ukraine is staggering). Finally, the US should give Ukraine all sorts of fun weapons built for the sole purpose of destroying Russian tanks, soldiers, and rocket launchers.
63
Why should anyone trust what the Russian media has to say?
10
Dear Sophia,
Keep in mind that the Ukrainian government did not abide by the cease fire either. Certainly Russia is partially to blame for this, but objectively western Ukraine is likewise partially to blame.
Keep in mind that the Ukrainian government did not abide by the cease fire either. Certainly Russia is partially to blame for this, but objectively western Ukraine is likewise partially to blame.
4
Sophia - Using the term "fun weapons" really speaks to the limited understanding of the neocon diaspora left over from the Bush days. Please watch the video via the link I posted then reconsider you lazy call for escalation. The smart money says what the Ukraine needs to do for it's best interests is stop making war on it's ethnic Russian minority.
7