This tragedy might have been averted if residents and management had taken seriously the danger that Craig Hicks presented to the community. This was an angry and unstable individual who had on numerous occasions harassed and confronted multiple residents, while ostentatiously, deliberately displaying his guns. On at least one occasion even holding a gun in his hands and pointing it at someone. Yet no one ever called the police or requested a restraining order, and the management and home owners' association took no decisive action to deal with this obviously dangerous individual and protect the residents and their visitors. His behavior on multiple occasions was sufficient to warrant arrest, eviction if he was a tenant or other appropriate action by the home owners even if he owned his apartment. While everyone debates his motives, this will not prevent future murders. We live in a country in which people are allowed to own and carry firearms, and this will not change in the foreseeable future. We need to be very vigilent and do everything legally possible, both individually and collectively to protect ourselves against these armed and dangerous individuals.
10
I think we ought not read too much into the fact that they were Muslim or the fact that he had a lot of guns.
In my opinion, this is just an example of how we as a society seem to have really bad anger management and conflict management skills. Nobody wants to be seen as the 'loser' in a conflict. Even parking space use. And many of us watch hyper violent movies and TV series (and video games), vicariously imagining ourselves to be ultra-badass Jason Bourne types who can snap necks, knock out bad guys with one punch, and shoot our way through problems.
I actually do have martial arts training and a background in nightclub security. You know what, I do not use my fists or weapons to solve problems. They are a last resort, after I have attempted de-escalation techniques. These are simple, like offering an apology where none is 'needed'. Another good one is to use transactional bargaining. Offer the other guy something in return so you both walk away 'winners'.
I think this also points out how isolated and alienated Americans are. We dwell in our living rooms locked into serialized entertainment and sports loyalties. Not even knowing the name of other people in our building or on our street.
In my opinion, this is just an example of how we as a society seem to have really bad anger management and conflict management skills. Nobody wants to be seen as the 'loser' in a conflict. Even parking space use. And many of us watch hyper violent movies and TV series (and video games), vicariously imagining ourselves to be ultra-badass Jason Bourne types who can snap necks, knock out bad guys with one punch, and shoot our way through problems.
I actually do have martial arts training and a background in nightclub security. You know what, I do not use my fists or weapons to solve problems. They are a last resort, after I have attempted de-escalation techniques. These are simple, like offering an apology where none is 'needed'. Another good one is to use transactional bargaining. Offer the other guy something in return so you both walk away 'winners'.
I think this also points out how isolated and alienated Americans are. We dwell in our living rooms locked into serialized entertainment and sports loyalties. Not even knowing the name of other people in our building or on our street.
8
Its hard to believe that the killings--of three young, vibrant college students, whatever the religion or ethnicity--was not a hate crime, in this instance. Was the result of them all being shot in the back of the head, gangland style, over something as trivial as a parking space, truly unplanned? Perhaps that is the problem with allowing people to have their way in interpreting the rules for everyone else.
Obviously, the young students had higher priorities than dealing with a middle-aged Condo Commando; but, the Development Board should have been involved with this long, long ago. To me, this smacks of "cop wannabe" George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot and killed the unarmed Trevon Martin in Sanford, Florida a couple of years ago.
When people are allowed to interpret the neighborhood rules for everyone else, they begin to assume that they are right, and that the overall "Majority" agrees with them. From what I have read, that was certainly NOT the case. But, most unfortunately, no one evader told Craig Hicks.
Will people in this country finally start to realize that we are no where near as open to Racial, Religious, Ethnic and Gender-Orientation Diversity, as some might believe. If so, be sure to tell the Conservative Justices on the Supreme Court.
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Obviously, the young students had higher priorities than dealing with a middle-aged Condo Commando; but, the Development Board should have been involved with this long, long ago. To me, this smacks of "cop wannabe" George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot and killed the unarmed Trevon Martin in Sanford, Florida a couple of years ago.
When people are allowed to interpret the neighborhood rules for everyone else, they begin to assume that they are right, and that the overall "Majority" agrees with them. From what I have read, that was certainly NOT the case. But, most unfortunately, no one evader told Craig Hicks.
Will people in this country finally start to realize that we are no where near as open to Racial, Religious, Ethnic and Gender-Orientation Diversity, as some might believe. If so, be sure to tell the Conservative Justices on the Supreme Court.
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
3
We see that increasing numbers of Americans are irresponsible gun owners, and, as such, are quickly making the Second highly vulnerable to having limitations imposed upon it.
Ardent gun rights advocates should pause in their "Liberals are coming for your guns!" blather and take serious note about who actually is eviscerating the Second.
Ardent gun rights advocates should pause in their "Liberals are coming for your guns!" blather and take serious note about who actually is eviscerating the Second.
7
Americans are so called civilised peoples while Pakistanis are so called backward peoples. What do you expect from Americans? They even slaughtered the native Indians and grabbed their land. Three college students killed on Tuesday in Chapel Hill, N.C., were proud Muslims and proud Americans. Deah Shaddy Barakat, 23, his wife Yusor Abu-Salha, 21, were dedicated to serving humanity, the down trodden, and the suffering. Abu-Salha’s sister, Razan Abu-Salha, 19, was a gifted artist at North Carolina State University.
In my mind, it’s hard to believe that these Muslim students were not in some way targeted and murdered because of their faith.
A neighbour, Craig Stephen Hicks, has been charged with first-degree murder in the students’ deaths. While Chapel Hill Police Chief Chris Blue has suggested that Hicks’ motive was based on a “dispute over parking,” he also acknowledged “concerns about the possibility that this was hate-motivated.”
Let’s face it, if Hicks was Muslim, and the victims were white like Hicks, we would be hard pressed to find a headline without the word terrorist. In fact, on social media, #ChapelHillShooting trended as number one, with many raising this same question. Yet, there has been an apathetic approach to Muslim victims over the past decade that is reflective of a double standard.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
In my mind, it’s hard to believe that these Muslim students were not in some way targeted and murdered because of their faith.
A neighbour, Craig Stephen Hicks, has been charged with first-degree murder in the students’ deaths. While Chapel Hill Police Chief Chris Blue has suggested that Hicks’ motive was based on a “dispute over parking,” he also acknowledged “concerns about the possibility that this was hate-motivated.”
Let’s face it, if Hicks was Muslim, and the victims were white like Hicks, we would be hard pressed to find a headline without the word terrorist. In fact, on social media, #ChapelHillShooting trended as number one, with many raising this same question. Yet, there has been an apathetic approach to Muslim victims over the past decade that is reflective of a double standard.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
3
So this is a "hate crime " , but Nidal Hassan at Fort Hood screaming ällahu akbar " was workplace violence , right ?
The murder of the Bosnian man in front of his fiance while he was stopped at a red light by 3 black men weilding hammers and screaming 'kill whites' was justified because they were upset about Brown - not a hate crime, according to St. Louis police and the Fed.
I could go on, but progressives only see through one set of glasses. However, Obama is a disgrace and does more harm than good when he jumps to conclusions he conjures up in his head as a result of his hate of all things that don't feed his ideal - divide, then conquer.
The murder of the Bosnian man in front of his fiance while he was stopped at a red light by 3 black men weilding hammers and screaming 'kill whites' was justified because they were upset about Brown - not a hate crime, according to St. Louis police and the Fed.
I could go on, but progressives only see through one set of glasses. However, Obama is a disgrace and does more harm than good when he jumps to conclusions he conjures up in his head as a result of his hate of all things that don't feed his ideal - divide, then conquer.
5
In other words, this is simply a convenient platform for jabbing Obama over notions of fantasy about "divide and conquer," never minding conservatives' charges of makers and takers, the 47%, and "If you're not with us, you're against us."
Once again, Fox achieves its self-proclaimed purpose of ginning up phony outrage, this time on the backs of three innocent kids.
Once again, Fox achieves its self-proclaimed purpose of ginning up phony outrage, this time on the backs of three innocent kids.
This man, though angry, was fully finctional in society- he was not crazy. Google the legal defense of insane. He knew what he was doing, sure enough to run off and then turn himself in. To say he was crazy makes it more palatable for some, but the truth is much much worse.
10
Was it a hate crime? Maybe, maybe not. I don't understand why the fact that the victims were Muslim is what defines them. "Muslims get shot!" It really set them up as an "other" an outside. Shame on the media for trumpeting it. If you question whether the "Muslim" is important, just substitute "Christian" and you will see how ridiculous that is. And shame on Obama for talking about this as if it has already been decided that it was a hate crime.
5
The religion of those poor three kids is being pointed out because there is currently a rather strong undercurrent of distrust of Muslims coursing through the nation, and we have to nip it in the bud by - forgive the clinical response here - collecting and analyzing as much data as possible so we can understand and better predict such heinous outcomes and levy appropriate consequences accordingly.
But kudos for the dig at Obama. Nothing like taking the same tired opportunity at every turn.
But kudos for the dig at Obama. Nothing like taking the same tired opportunity at every turn.
2
I know how we can prove that "we" are not racist or bigoted against Islam or "insensitive" to pink with green spotted aliens from the nearest habitable planet! Let our bipartisan political class, bought off by the global few percent corporate and business owner nobility "fix" our "broken immigration system" by setting a new quota of a special additional 1 million Islamists per year. That way they'll be able to prove "our" collective virtue and political correctness, and "grow the economy" by their gaining an extra 10 million slave wage workers and desperate for social services voters per decade.
Your point, Winthrop? I am sure it is in there somewhere. These were American citizens.
3
Why do the writers refer to the shooter as a "white" man. His victims were just as white as he is. This meaningless adjective keeps being repeated.
4
An atheist organization, Foundation Beyond Belief, is mounting a drive for the Syrian American Medical Society Foundation (SAMS). Deah Barakat was pursuing his doctorate in dentistry at UNC Chapel Hill and planned to travel to Syrian refugee camps this summer to perform emergency dentistry for refugee children for SAMS.
In honor of his efforts, they have already raised $17,010. This is something we can do to honor the memory of Deah.
Which is so much better than attacking hatred against muslims, gun ownership, atheism, liberals, conservatives, and so on (I know I am missing other isms).
Let's honor the vision of Deah.
https://foundationbeyondbelief.org/chapel-hill-shooting-drive
In honor of his efforts, they have already raised $17,010. This is something we can do to honor the memory of Deah.
Which is so much better than attacking hatred against muslims, gun ownership, atheism, liberals, conservatives, and so on (I know I am missing other isms).
Let's honor the vision of Deah.
https://foundationbeyondbelief.org/chapel-hill-shooting-drive
9
The crazy shooter claims not only to be an atheist; he is, more aptly, an anti-theist. I agree with those who believe this would have been pegged a hate crime fairly immediately if his Facebook "likes" had included Sean Hannity instead of Rachel Maddow and Bill Nye. I am convinced of that.
2
The death penalty will probably be too good for this vile criminal. Nevertheless, it is not surprising that the President has chimed and assumed it is a hate crime ( as he did before all the facts were in on Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin when they fit a narrative), yet refuses to describe ISIS, Boko Haram, the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the conflicts that are engulfing North Africa, the Middle East and now Europe as 'Islamic". No, its the Christians of 800 years ago who are morally culpable. Had he been a Christian or Conservative (instead of an atheist), the media would be up in arms about Right wing terrorism. Since he is on the Left, his progressive views are dismissed.
But even if he were a Right winger, it would not matter. the rwaosn the islamic threat is focused on is because of the magnitude of killing and support it has. Neither atheists nor Christians groups are waging religious wars on multiple continents, imposing religious based laws as the final say in entire nations, killing or driving out hundreds of thousands, killing cartoonists or blwoing up Danish embassies, enacting Blasphemy codes and executing apostates (both ISIS and Saudi Arabia do this). No Christian country has a critical mass population where 80% or more support the killing of those who "offend" Muhammed or those who convert from islam. Pew Polls show a disturbing trend in Muslim countries. Those are the major differences in threats faced today.
But even if he were a Right winger, it would not matter. the rwaosn the islamic threat is focused on is because of the magnitude of killing and support it has. Neither atheists nor Christians groups are waging religious wars on multiple continents, imposing religious based laws as the final say in entire nations, killing or driving out hundreds of thousands, killing cartoonists or blwoing up Danish embassies, enacting Blasphemy codes and executing apostates (both ISIS and Saudi Arabia do this). No Christian country has a critical mass population where 80% or more support the killing of those who "offend" Muhammed or those who convert from islam. Pew Polls show a disturbing trend in Muslim countries. Those are the major differences in threats faced today.
6
My own view based on reading this NYT report and hearing BBC World Radio coverage is that most, maybe all, parties who have responsibility for acting have not been up to their respective tasks. I am not fully informed about what President Obama has said but think he should have been making a stronger statement more quickly.
The only satisfactory reporting I have seen on the killing of three muslim students is by Philip Gourevitch in the New Yorker. http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/guns-chapel-hill-myth-...
Gourevitch expresses the thoughts I had and does this so well that I urge everyone to read him and even return here with a new look at the Times reporting, given what Gourevitch has reported.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
The only satisfactory reporting I have seen on the killing of three muslim students is by Philip Gourevitch in the New Yorker. http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/guns-chapel-hill-myth-...
Gourevitch expresses the thoughts I had and does this so well that I urge everyone to read him and even return here with a new look at the Times reporting, given what Gourevitch has reported.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
3
The guy was a disgruntled grievance enthusiast. He hated equally. It was a horrible tragedy but I don't think it was a hate crime.
8
Texas did not charge the white men who dragged a black man named James Byrd Jr. to his death behind their pickup in 1998 with a hate crime because prosecutors knew charging them with a hate crime would prolong not only the trial but the defendant’s lives. Charging the men with a hate crime would have given them another avenue for appeal, prolonging their lives by a few more years. North Carolina prosecutors should have no trouble proving Hicks committed a hideous triple murder punishable by death or life in prison, but they might have trouble proving it was a hate crime. Why waste the time.
5
This is a good point. I think hate crime is a useless term in most cases, and should probably be abandoned. If you assault or murder someone, the sentence should be just as harsh regardless of the motivation.
4
And sometimes crazy people are also racist. So which wins out? crazy or racism? I feel the the crazy feeds the bigotry until finally they conflate into one, and some horrid action like this takes place. Just like the gun control issues, we wring our hands about the crazies who shoot up movie theatres and schools, but will spend little tax money to do anything about it.
It's time to open a 21st century system of asylums - medical and residential -for these people. Making their families bear all the burdens - emotional and financial - is clearly not working.
It's time to open a 21st century system of asylums - medical and residential -for these people. Making their families bear all the burdens - emotional and financial - is clearly not working.
2
Another circus atmosphere with Muslims taking offense because they feel that reaction wasn't swift enough- No one is ever happy about the media reaction- The crime of killing these 3 young people by Mr. Hicks is deplorable. He sounds like a "typical" crackpot who is antisocial. It wouldn't matter who the victims were and what their ethnicity or religion. He will probably have an attorney who will plead insanity which I'm sure he is (and with a gun no less)
3
The America use of the Insanity Plea is a good one. American Invasions of other countries and killing, and maiming, of thousands (even millions) becomes so easy to explain - America is an Insane Nation. Maybe I am putting it too brutally. Let me reformulate it. America as a nation suffers from Spasmodic Insanity (sometimes episodic insanity - where the episode can last years - as in the invasion & occupation, without cause, of Iraq).
Why cannot these other nations just accept our way of defining things. My God, why not.
Why cannot these other nations just accept our way of defining things. My God, why not.
1
The NRA is always silent when it comes to the murder of innocents by gun carrying mentally ill individuals. Is that because so many of their members would be declared ineligible if we kept guns out of the hands of the mentally ill? Not only that, it usually wants to deny that those people were mentally ill at all. James Holmes, the Aurora theater shooter, was clearly known to be mentally ill and should never have been able to own weapons. Ditto for this guy--who walked around with a gun visible and terrorized his neighbors. How terrible that he was able to do this and everyone knew the police could do nothing because unstable people are encouraged to buy weapons by the NRA and Concerned Gunowners of America.
11
The condo complex where this happened is situated where 3 counties, Orange, Durham & Chatham, meet. While most of Chapel Hill is in Orange Co., the unit where the murders happened is in Durham. Hicks turned himself in to Chatham Co. Sherif.
In my experience, all of the police departments involved are very careful and thorough. They will not release information about an investigation to the media, sometimes for a year or more. This is not because the aren't investigating, it's because they are careful. The families of the victims want answers now, understandably. Having the FBI investigate as well may help the family, but IMO I think this will turn out to be "just a hateful crazy man with too many guns."
The complex was built in the 70-80s, has 2-3 bedroom garden and townhouse units. This happened in a garden unit. Hicks lived in an unit on the other side of the victims. Each unit is assigned 1 parking spot. If someone is in your spot, you can get them towed. Hicks did this so often the management banned him from towing. Hicks also "patrolled" the visitor lot, trying to get those cars towed, with a gun in his belt. He also complained about noise, any noise.
He was so disruptive that the residents met to see what they could do about him. They were afraid of him, not just Muslim residents but everyone. But they didn't expect this.
What can you do with a hateful crazy man with too many guns? He has a right to his guns, but we have a right to life. Which one first?
In my experience, all of the police departments involved are very careful and thorough. They will not release information about an investigation to the media, sometimes for a year or more. This is not because the aren't investigating, it's because they are careful. The families of the victims want answers now, understandably. Having the FBI investigate as well may help the family, but IMO I think this will turn out to be "just a hateful crazy man with too many guns."
The complex was built in the 70-80s, has 2-3 bedroom garden and townhouse units. This happened in a garden unit. Hicks lived in an unit on the other side of the victims. Each unit is assigned 1 parking spot. If someone is in your spot, you can get them towed. Hicks did this so often the management banned him from towing. Hicks also "patrolled" the visitor lot, trying to get those cars towed, with a gun in his belt. He also complained about noise, any noise.
He was so disruptive that the residents met to see what they could do about him. They were afraid of him, not just Muslim residents but everyone. But they didn't expect this.
What can you do with a hateful crazy man with too many guns? He has a right to his guns, but we have a right to life. Which one first?
10
“No one in the United States of America should ever be targeted because of who they are, what they look like, or how they worship”
Somebody in our country will always be a target for others. Cause our country is a Melting Pot, a mixture of cultures and nations.
Targeted because of skin color, religion, sexual orientation or something else.
It was Ferguson. Now Muslims are the main target, especially against the background of the events in the Middle East. Migration of Muslim to the U.S. has increased for the last years. Have you ever thought about the reason?
Yeah, more wars on the Middle East, more Muslims in the U.S.
Somebody in our country will always be a target for others. Cause our country is a Melting Pot, a mixture of cultures and nations.
Targeted because of skin color, religion, sexual orientation or something else.
It was Ferguson. Now Muslims are the main target, especially against the background of the events in the Middle East. Migration of Muslim to the U.S. has increased for the last years. Have you ever thought about the reason?
Yeah, more wars on the Middle East, more Muslims in the U.S.
At home America wants Psychopaths to have the FREEDOM to carry guns, as if killing was not a corollary to carrying guns. Internationally America is becoming know s the International Psychopath seeking FREEDOM to invade small nations, and kill the people there (of course because they were PARKING wrongly) without accountability (we don't count their dead!). American slide into pariah nation status, is won by the Gun Lobby.
1
The shooter was a 46 year-old unemployed man studying full-time to be a paralegal? Two failed marriages and a third on the way? He must have felt like such a loser and so he compensated for it by becoming the self-appointed parking space monitor for the complex. It must have really galled him to see those three students who were obviously "from somewhere else" doing so well with such bright futures ahead of them. Sure, neighbors say he was angry and aggressive with everyone...but he only shot the Muslims.
10
I have lived in the US for quite some time and have learned two lessons: respect your neighbor's rights including their parking, and stay away from those who don't seem to like you especially because of your race or religion. Unfortunately these poor young people didn't seem to get this (which is common with many of my friends of Arab descent) and they paid it with their lives. And why are my co-religionists upset about this when the same is happening in some of their countries to minorities? Honestly, I being a liberal Muslim myself, am more concerned about the future of my kids in this world which is getting more and more filled with hate and intolerance against each other.
4
Mr Syed, I'll accept that you have lived in America long; but perhaps you have lived a sheltered life, or a blinkered one. Some people have a condition called mental hyperopia; still others have mental astigmatism.
Mr Syed I am not of Arab descent, but an American Citizen (who professes the Islamic Faith); your pandering up to wrong-doers by preaching that good people should "stay away" (same as run-away, or surrender to) implies surrendering ones freedoms to BRUTES. You might have lived in America, but you have not imbibed the full measure of the Spirit of America.
Mr Syed I am not of Arab descent, but an American Citizen (who professes the Islamic Faith); your pandering up to wrong-doers by preaching that good people should "stay away" (same as run-away, or surrender to) implies surrendering ones freedoms to BRUTES. You might have lived in America, but you have not imbibed the full measure of the Spirit of America.
2
This news story is totally unworthy of making national headlines. It is an everyday occurance in major cities. The fact that these individuals were of middle eastern descent is hardly newsworthy.
4
I live in a four-plex with eight parking spots (two for each apartment). Two-car renters have no parking space for visitors. "Visitor parking" is a slim strip of grass in the front of the building. Uless the plan is to drop visitors off by helicopter, my building's limited parking puts a gregarious renter who expects to be entertaining lots of friends at a crossroad: 1), ignore the parking rules and make every other habitually inconvenienced renter in the building intensely dislike you and your selfish, thoughtless behavior 2) park your car(s) on the street and give your two spaces to your visitors, or 3) accept that you must have parties and routine group get-togethers somewhere else.
I'm afraid some foreigners confuse America's "freedoms" with kind of cart blanche "right" to do anything that pleases them personally. If these young people were not taking the rules seriously, and were habitually depriving their neighbors of parking spaces (that they pay for), I can honesty see how that kind of continuous taunting and thoughtlessness could drive someone to the brink of insanity. And if the offended is a bit aggressive, as perhaps might be the case here, maybe past the brink...quite regardless of the offender's race or religion.
I'm afraid some foreigners confuse America's "freedoms" with kind of cart blanche "right" to do anything that pleases them personally. If these young people were not taking the rules seriously, and were habitually depriving their neighbors of parking spaces (that they pay for), I can honesty see how that kind of continuous taunting and thoughtlessness could drive someone to the brink of insanity. And if the offended is a bit aggressive, as perhaps might be the case here, maybe past the brink...quite regardless of the offender's race or religion.
1
Are you seriously defending the murder of "foreigners" over parking spaces? What a good, Christian, American neighbor you must be ...
3
In defending someone's decision to stand their ground with lethal force
over a parking dispute. please tell me you're merely being sarcastic.
over a parking dispute. please tell me you're merely being sarcastic.
6
Foriegners? Whaaat? They were Americans. Graduated from a Wake Coutnty high school and then off to college here. Your implication is twaddle and sad all at the same time.
6
There's no doubt in my mind that the murderer of these three extraordinary young Americans was motivated by his animus towards their religion. And there's no doubt in my mind that this psychopath is not an an atheist but actually a fanatical worshiper of his one and only true god, the gun. Unfortunately his revolting (gun-worshipping) religion is on the rise in this country.
10
I have lived in NYC where legal parking switched from one side of the street to the other on an every-other-day basis, in L.A. where parking signs were "flipped up" (only in L.A.) on football days near the Colosseum that instantly made one's legal parking illegal, and in Boston where parking in someone's shovelled-out spot during deep snow (like now) could spark unbelievable, lethal rage in stressfaul times and especially in stressed out, inhinged people. I also know that many people - and yes, especially evident in young, carefree college folk - are blissfully unaware of their actions with respect to the feelong, concerns, or rights of other people. Still, it does not excuse what this crazy person did. I can only imagine that the building stresses in his life, whatever they were, finally drove him over the edge into madness. Yes, if he felt continually violated, maybe he should have moved to a quieter or more remote neighborhood. That said, folks of all ages and stripes need to be more aware of their actions and how they affect other people, if only for their own safetu. People HAVE been killed before over a stupid parking space, and even a lot less.
5
Sounds to me like you're somewhat blaming the victims which is completely unbelievable and outrageous. And by the way, according to what I have read and heard, the victims did not even park in his precious little visitor's spot on the afternoon when he entered their condominium and executed them in their own home. Please don't try to rationalize the conduct of this cold-blooded Islamophobic murderer.
1
This perp was, according to news reports, a violent and angry atheist. (Guess we atheists can get off our high horse about hate in the name of God.)
By their dress, these young women openly demonstrated their religiosity.
I wonder if this deranged man would have killed Hasidic men or Catholic priests (also identifiable as religious by their dress) if they had lived in his building.
We'll never know, or at least I hope we won't, but to characterize the killing as being over a parking dispute is obviously ridiculous.
By their dress, these young women openly demonstrated their religiosity.
I wonder if this deranged man would have killed Hasidic men or Catholic priests (also identifiable as religious by their dress) if they had lived in his building.
We'll never know, or at least I hope we won't, but to characterize the killing as being over a parking dispute is obviously ridiculous.
5
Hate crime ? Does that mean that if he killed them simply because of a parking tantrum it was a love crime ? How about we call a spade a spade: call it religious murder, ethnic murder, racial murder, gay murder, or whatever, but let's skip the "hate" adjective.
As to foreign criticism of the U.S. regarding these murders: I most certainly hope the President did not take such into account in formulating his comments. Better yet would have been the President responding to Erdogan by commenting on his treatment of oppositional Muslims in his own country. And Ban Ki Moon has no business sticking his nose in simply because three Muslims were murdered. I have not noticed him extending condolences when gays, Christians, Jews, or atheists are murdered. Erdogan, Ban, and the others are simply playing to their own constituencies. The President should not take the bait.
Isn't there anyone out there who thinks it might be a good idea to let the investigation proceed before jumping to conclusions?
As to foreign criticism of the U.S. regarding these murders: I most certainly hope the President did not take such into account in formulating his comments. Better yet would have been the President responding to Erdogan by commenting on his treatment of oppositional Muslims in his own country. And Ban Ki Moon has no business sticking his nose in simply because three Muslims were murdered. I have not noticed him extending condolences when gays, Christians, Jews, or atheists are murdered. Erdogan, Ban, and the others are simply playing to their own constituencies. The President should not take the bait.
Isn't there anyone out there who thinks it might be a good idea to let the investigation proceed before jumping to conclusions?
5
In all the articles I have read there is much speculation about motive, but very little discussion of the role of the easy access to guns. A discussion about the role of our gun culture, and the advisability of allowing convicted felons, and people with restraining orders against them to have as many guns and bullets in their possession is long overdue.
2
The hate crime evidence against Craig Hicks is that he is not a Muslim. Since hate crimes are difficult to prove, why not make interracial murder or interfaith murder a separate crime category? Prosecutors would simply have to prove that the offenders are of a different race or different faith than their victims. (Mixed race issues would be settled by DNA testing.) The FBI compiles data on interracial murders. In 2013, the most recent year for which data is available, blacks committed 436 interracial murders, whites (including Hispanics) committed 221 and people of other races committed 69, but only whites were charged with hate crime murders, but only five murders were classified as hate crimes.
1
Why not just charge each and every murderer with murder, and leave it at that?
1
Mr. Hicks is a poster boy for how the U.S. has decided to let anyone, no matter their temperament or demons, own not only a gun but a little arsenal. In exchange for enabling these so-called good guns with guns, we have equally decided that the lives of good guys without guns are wholly expendable in an adolescent notion of freedom. Elementary school children, college students, teachers, doctors (recently in Boston), theater goers, mall shoppers, worshipers, government workers, factory workers, politicians at town hall meetings and those in attendance, and now Muslim students with cars - all acceptable collateral damage in the name of unfettered gun rights. And yet nationally our politicians defer to those who think the answer is more guns, against all evidence to the contrary. We have become barbaric.
10
We have not become barbaric. Like it or not, guns are interwoven into fabric of American culture, going all the way back to the earliest days of the American Revolution. It really IS all about upholding the power of the individual (or the "governed" if you prefer) over the power of the government. This obviously deranged individual is not being let off; anyone who commits a murderous act is certainly going to be punished. But if you want to take a Constitutional right away from those you believe are too delusional to own guns, you have to come up with criteria we can all agree on, as well as how those tests are going to be administered.
Although the explanation is long, but I'll try to be brief.
1. Guns DO NOT kill
2. People kill.
3. People can file a insanity plea. Often temporary insanity (the other party made me made, etc.)
Now, by analogy:
4. When America kills and maims millions of people (as in Iraq, Afghania, Pakia, Somalia, Syria, etc. a long list), the bad guys there made us mad. So made that we became insane (sometimes the insanity lasts long periods - 10+ years). Under this plea no international tribunal/court, could possibly hold us responsible for our acts. For before they could convict us, they would have to consider the consequences - if their verdict made us mad, who know what may happen to that court house or the unworthy people living within 10'000 miles radius of the self-righteous, but ultimately foolish judge, jury, and the whole caboodle.
1. Guns DO NOT kill
2. People kill.
3. People can file a insanity plea. Often temporary insanity (the other party made me made, etc.)
Now, by analogy:
4. When America kills and maims millions of people (as in Iraq, Afghania, Pakia, Somalia, Syria, etc. a long list), the bad guys there made us mad. So made that we became insane (sometimes the insanity lasts long periods - 10+ years). Under this plea no international tribunal/court, could possibly hold us responsible for our acts. For before they could convict us, they would have to consider the consequences - if their verdict made us mad, who know what may happen to that court house or the unworthy people living within 10'000 miles radius of the self-righteous, but ultimately foolish judge, jury, and the whole caboodle.
You unwittingly make my point for me. You argue that HIcks' "constitutional right" trumps the lives of those he killed because he'll be punished, as if that makes them less dead. And you want criteria? Maybe "obviously deranged" people should not be granted gun permits. Finally, the power of the government? Because Hicks was able to carry, this little weany of a loser had the power to decide in an instant, flush with the element of surprise, that 3 people's lives were over. That's power, and we're crazy to have granted it to him. I rest my case.
1
Again and again we watch this same movie knowing fully well the outcome.
A single nut case is permitted by law to amass weapons suitable for small armies and law enforcement agencies. He romanticizes his weapons every day and his imagination runs wild. He sees himself as a Rambo resolving every little, manufactured conflict with his arsenal. Eventually he actualizes his dreams. Innocent lives are shattered, and we ask why.
Then we move on to replay exact same movie with same outcome, same outcry. Insanity, it is.
A single nut case is permitted by law to amass weapons suitable for small armies and law enforcement agencies. He romanticizes his weapons every day and his imagination runs wild. He sees himself as a Rambo resolving every little, manufactured conflict with his arsenal. Eventually he actualizes his dreams. Innocent lives are shattered, and we ask why.
Then we move on to replay exact same movie with same outcome, same outcry. Insanity, it is.
6
These murders highlight a common phenomenon in college communities. Because of inflated housing costs, affordable rentals in such communities are often occupied by a mix of students and older, single working poor individuals. They mix in common areas where they walk their dogs, barbecue, and come and go regularly. Some of the mixing is great -- the young and the middle aged get to know each other. But, mostly, the two groups self-segregate. As with any such groups, there are those whose behavior pushes the edge. Some of the young, away from home for the first time, have little consideration for others. Some of the older are angered by their hard lives. I've seen this mix cause conflict here in Tempe, Arizona. Chapel Hill sounds the same. Whatever role Islam may have played. the diversity in such apartment complexes increases the likelihood of misunderstandings escalating out of control.
1
Yesterday on NPR's weekly Story Corps podcast I had the bittersweet pleasure of listening to one of the victims - the elder sister - talking with her beloved third grade teacher, in a recording made last year. It was punctuated with other comments from the teacher in the last two days.
Listening to the original conversation would have made me feel happy, encouraged, and positive about America and its future - there is no question that all three of these young people were full of integrity, compassion, intelligence, courage, and everything we hope to see in our nation's children and young adults. Listening to the story with full, horrible knowledge of the magnitude of the loss of these three is truly devastating. Such possibility and promise, snuffed out all too quickly by an impulsive, vindictive, irrational man.
This is an incomprehensible loss, both for their grieving families and for our society as a whole.
I encourage everyone to listen to the Story Corps piece. It isn't easy, knowing just how much radiance was destroyed, but it's important - both to know just what has been lost, and to offer a glimpse of hope at how wonderful our next generation is. I hope they "get right" what we've often failed to achieve.
Listening to the original conversation would have made me feel happy, encouraged, and positive about America and its future - there is no question that all three of these young people were full of integrity, compassion, intelligence, courage, and everything we hope to see in our nation's children and young adults. Listening to the story with full, horrible knowledge of the magnitude of the loss of these three is truly devastating. Such possibility and promise, snuffed out all too quickly by an impulsive, vindictive, irrational man.
This is an incomprehensible loss, both for their grieving families and for our society as a whole.
I encourage everyone to listen to the Story Corps piece. It isn't easy, knowing just how much radiance was destroyed, but it's important - both to know just what has been lost, and to offer a glimpse of hope at how wonderful our next generation is. I hope they "get right" what we've often failed to achieve.
11
Time to clarify the Second Amendment and align it with public safety.
Law Enforcement Professionals and national guard may have firearms at home in connection with their professional service. All others may be allowed licensed access to firearms for sports that shall be kept at licensed ranges. During hunting season, licensees with proper licenses and permits may take out such fire arms to be used in connection with their hunting permit and returned by date of it's expiration, during which time such weapon will be kept in a secured locked case when not in active use.
All other weapons are to be turned into the U.S. gov't in return for resale value or face fine and confiscation.
Otherwise this foolishness and insanity will continue.
If there is a gun shown on screen in a movie, a gun will be used in that movie by the end of the film. That is screenwriting 101. Really most of us are just plain bored and tired of the hysterical chest pounders who must have their guns to feel safe. That doesn't seem to work for the rest of us. And it keeps leading to the same conversation over and over again.
Law Enforcement Professionals and national guard may have firearms at home in connection with their professional service. All others may be allowed licensed access to firearms for sports that shall be kept at licensed ranges. During hunting season, licensees with proper licenses and permits may take out such fire arms to be used in connection with their hunting permit and returned by date of it's expiration, during which time such weapon will be kept in a secured locked case when not in active use.
All other weapons are to be turned into the U.S. gov't in return for resale value or face fine and confiscation.
Otherwise this foolishness and insanity will continue.
If there is a gun shown on screen in a movie, a gun will be used in that movie by the end of the film. That is screenwriting 101. Really most of us are just plain bored and tired of the hysterical chest pounders who must have their guns to feel safe. That doesn't seem to work for the rest of us. And it keeps leading to the same conversation over and over again.
Based on researching the topic, 17 Muslims/ex-Muslims have been killed by fellow Muslims in honor violence in the U.S. since 2000. In addition, 40 non-Muslims have been killed due to violence in which the perpetrator cited their Islamic faith. Prior to this incident, the number of murders motivated by anti-Muslim hate over the same period stood at 4 (2 victims not actually being Muslim). Yet which set of victims does the Islamic community focus upon? Which set of victims does the non-Muslim media focus upon?
As a secularist, feminist, and LGBT rights supporter, I am not going to carry water for an Islamic victimhood narrative that does not square with the facts. Now these activists want us to believe Hicks, who by literally all appearances, was a political progressive, not to mention an atheist with a record of attacking religion in general, was some avatar of specifically Islamophobic rage. It is shameless and as tragic and senseless as these murder are, I refuse to indulge that divisive attitude.
As a secularist, feminist, and LGBT rights supporter, I am not going to carry water for an Islamic victimhood narrative that does not square with the facts. Now these activists want us to believe Hicks, who by literally all appearances, was a political progressive, not to mention an atheist with a record of attacking religion in general, was some avatar of specifically Islamophobic rage. It is shameless and as tragic and senseless as these murder are, I refuse to indulge that divisive attitude.
2
Why was it okay for this man to have a gun and why aren't we talking about this part of the story?
2
Because it is NC and very very legal, that's why. Call 911 about seeing such a person with one and being afraid because he is yelling, will get you arrested here.
1
Thanks to the NRA's influence over local elections, no doubt. Shocking!
Chapel Hill is a very progressive community. Police officers undergo implicit bias training. It is unlikely that they would not recognize a hate crime. It seems likely that the shooter is a generally resentful, anger-driven individual.
4
When is the US going to move past man-made divisions amongst us? All lives matter, not just those who start a hashtag movement. That three innocent people were murdered by a nutcase with guns is the story here. RIP.
19
Another nut case armed to the teeth courtesy of the NRA and the gun crowd goes on a killing spree.
42
America is armed to the teeth. Many a small nation has been pulverized for the smallest (or even imagined) offense.
Now go tell the masters of Pentagon, to reduce the Defense budget.
Now go tell the masters of Pentagon, to reduce the Defense budget.
Everyone is extremely sad and shocked at this triple murder. But what strikes me as hypocritical is the still-lacking Muslim outcry over massive extremist movements and atrocities within their own faith, which brought us such images as the video of a human prisoner being burned alive in a cage. Muslims continue to be by far the greatest victims of extremism, being slaughtered by the dozens (if not more) daily across the Middle East and Africa, by movements that have perverted their supposedly peaceful faith. I guess Muslim lives only matter in North Carolina when killed by some white nutcase, not when entire villages are decimated in the name of their own religion.
34
You seem to be singularly lacking in commonsense or maybe you were just asleep. There was huge Muslim condemnation of the murder of that pilot.
18
John - the extremism has been going on for well over a decade. Any outcry has been amazingly muted.
10
I strongly suggest you take a few minutes to look harder, because there is enormous condemnation and despair within the "Muslim community."
It seems to me that a big part of the blind spot Americans in particular seem to have is that we view Muslims as a monolithic "community," with a unified single leadership. The truth couldn't be farther from that - like Christianity has numerous denominations, differing enormously, Islam has different sects, leaders, clerics, members, etc. and they can be vehemently opposed to one another, not unlike Protestant vs. Catholic conflicts, often bloody and fatal, in Christianity's past (even recent past). Add to that a mix of nationalistic, ethnic, and state-based conflicts, reaching back centuries in many cases, and it becomes clearer that someone assuming that Muslims worldwide have a single, unified, recognized leader in the way that Catholocism is associated with the Pope, is going to be searching fruitlessly for a long time.
As for Muslim outcry against the deaths of Muslims, if you're not seeing it then you're not looking hard enough or in the proper places, because it is absolutely, unequivocally out there for all to see. I'm not sure how anyone can miss it, short of being willfully blind and deaf to it.
It seems to me that a big part of the blind spot Americans in particular seem to have is that we view Muslims as a monolithic "community," with a unified single leadership. The truth couldn't be farther from that - like Christianity has numerous denominations, differing enormously, Islam has different sects, leaders, clerics, members, etc. and they can be vehemently opposed to one another, not unlike Protestant vs. Catholic conflicts, often bloody and fatal, in Christianity's past (even recent past). Add to that a mix of nationalistic, ethnic, and state-based conflicts, reaching back centuries in many cases, and it becomes clearer that someone assuming that Muslims worldwide have a single, unified, recognized leader in the way that Catholocism is associated with the Pope, is going to be searching fruitlessly for a long time.
As for Muslim outcry against the deaths of Muslims, if you're not seeing it then you're not looking hard enough or in the proper places, because it is absolutely, unequivocally out there for all to see. I'm not sure how anyone can miss it, short of being willfully blind and deaf to it.
2
I'm very sad about these murders as I am sad about many murders and I applaud the President offering his thoughts and condolences about what happened. And do you know why I do so.... because we have around the clock broadcasters who offer quite the opposite. We have politicians who vocalize hate on a daily basis. This man may have been an a self proclaimed atheist, so much so he took hate full circle. He was also a type a personality, obsessive, as his first wife explained he watched "Falling Down" repeatedly. This was a hate crime plus. I also assume he was a legal licensed owner of a gun or guns, I've read he was very 2A and we still pretend that guns aren't a the problem concerning bloodshed of innocents in America.
To the Parents who lost your babies for no reason that can be justified I weep and I wish I could carry just a little of your heartache. Maybe someday you can forgive us.
To the Parents who lost your babies for no reason that can be justified I weep and I wish I could carry just a little of your heartache. Maybe someday you can forgive us.
25
This is the sort of pap that encourages this horrible violence. We must conclude that evil exists in the world. The shooter in this crime was full of evil as are the Islamic extremists we read about everyday. Let's at least agree that there is no moral equivalence here, the responsibility is NOT "us" but maybe you.
1
I think the President jumped the gun, although I believe he probably did so for strategic community relations reasons. Fine with me.
But, from what I've read, this is the case of just another American nut job who solves his problems with a gun. And over parking spaces (glad he doesn't live in Brooklyn, where parking and the moving of cars consumes people on a daily basis). The problem here doesn't appear to be hate (at least not of a person's faith, but certainly hatred for life, which all people who solve their problems with guns have, a deep-rooted hatred for life), but anger management and those damn guns that just seem to be in everyone's hands, especially the intellectually challenged and emotionally feeble people who dot American communities from coast to coast.
Three beautiful young people, full of life, full of hope, killed by a lunatic. And the families that mourn their loss. What a terrible shame.
But, from what I've read, this is the case of just another American nut job who solves his problems with a gun. And over parking spaces (glad he doesn't live in Brooklyn, where parking and the moving of cars consumes people on a daily basis). The problem here doesn't appear to be hate (at least not of a person's faith, but certainly hatred for life, which all people who solve their problems with guns have, a deep-rooted hatred for life), but anger management and those damn guns that just seem to be in everyone's hands, especially the intellectually challenged and emotionally feeble people who dot American communities from coast to coast.
Three beautiful young people, full of life, full of hope, killed by a lunatic. And the families that mourn their loss. What a terrible shame.
45
Crazy man had a gun. He made a good show of confronting people while carrying it. Gun laws let him do this. We can't police a crazy mans thoughts. We can't sue him for hating people of faith. We can make laws that don't let people walk around with guns, getting bolder and bolder with them, like a kid who is never reprimanded for leaving socks on the floor. Soon it's his gloves and his hat and his jacket...
If it's ok to walk around with more and more weapons, in more and more angry situations, it will eventually occurred to this idiot to use the stupid thing.
We can't police minds, but we can police actions.
If it's ok to walk around with more and more weapons, in more and more angry situations, it will eventually occurred to this idiot to use the stupid thing.
We can't police minds, but we can police actions.
50
Sorry, but in NC it is illegal to report a CCW carrier unless you know he\she\it is commiting a crime. Feeling threatened won't cut it, becuase the CCW swaggering for all to see can simply say...".I was not threatening anybofy" maybe through in some 2nd amendment stuff for good measure and the caller gets charged. Conversely and not without irony, you are perfectly free to pull out yours and shoot the person dead and simply clutch at your chest and weep that you felt threatened, because hey you can. That is how bad the gun culture has become.
2
Stephen Hicks owned two shotguns, seven rifles and four handguns, according to AP.
11
We live in a shallow and ignorant culture where men define themselves and their manhood by the number of guns they own. This appears to be particularly true with white men.
Why are white men so fearful that they need an arsenal that often times result in a member of their own family ( a young child) being killed?
Men like Hicks represent the worst kind of coward that surrounds himself with guns in order to feel superior and valued.
Why are white men so fearful that they need an arsenal that often times result in a member of their own family ( a young child) being killed?
Men like Hicks represent the worst kind of coward that surrounds himself with guns in order to feel superior and valued.
1
I suppose for quite a lot of reasons, some obvious and some not so...this photo made my eyes well up with tears. People are hurting and from every demographic represented in this country. Extremists can be found in every demographic and extremists target people from all demographics, including those in their own. Please, let us stop punishing those whose only "offense" is practicing their faith in a way that might be different than yours or mine. No more stereotyping each other and no more hateful rhetoric.
Be kind to one another.
Be kind to one another.
20
This is, in my opinion, a hate crime. From many other news articles, it appears that Hicks had confronted neighbors about where they parked their cars, called the towing company to remove cars out of the visitors parking spaces because he did not recognize the cars.
Hicks had parking issues with many neighbors, but he chose to select these three young people, of Muslim faith to shoot. He didn't just fire many bullets into them, he executed them with shots to their heads.
This IS a hate crime. Why these three Muslims and why not the other neighbors to infringed on what he thought were his parking privileges.
Hicks had parking issues with many neighbors, but he chose to select these three young people, of Muslim faith to shoot. He didn't just fire many bullets into them, he executed them with shots to their heads.
This IS a hate crime. Why these three Muslims and why not the other neighbors to infringed on what he thought were his parking privileges.
23
The complex has assigned parking spaces. The parking spaces assigned to Hicks and the Muslims family were adjacent spaces. This increases the likelihood that the shooting was over the parking spot. Hicks did confront other residents about parking violations, including some who lived on the other side of the complex; but his long-running dispute were with people who parked adjacent to his spot.
1
Craig Hicks will join the infamous list occupied by Elliot Rogers, Adam Lanza and other individuals who never should have had a firearm in his possession. In another article, Mr. Hicks was described as having brought his weapon to confront neighbors for minor infractions. His current and previous wife were aware that his was not a sound mind. In essence, this comes down to insanely easy access to guns, more than sentiment over religion or domestic nuisances.
27
If the killer was a conservative Christian this would be considered a hate crime with no debate. Craig Hicks is a progressive atheist, but that does not mean he is tolerant.
13
Atheism or the lack of religion is a belief in itself as is religion. So by that paradigm, it was certainly a hate crime. They were of a different "religion" he singled just them out based on that and executed them.
Hate crime 101.
Hate crime 101.
3
Lastcard, the absence of a shared religion does not make it a hate crime. To qualify as a hate crime the perpetrator would have to have targeted the victims solely or primarily because of their religion, race, sexual orientation, etc. Many if not most religiously motivated crimes involve people of different sects within the same religion. Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is the absence of a belief in the existence of a god or gods, usually because the atheist has not seen any proof or evidence of such existence. It's an intellectual position, not a religion.
1
I find some of these comments a little strange. People variously want to blame President Obama, the Muslim community, gun laws. Of the three I would vote for gun laws, or lack of them.
This was not the act of a sane man, to execute three people over a parking space. But let's change it to 3 white kids from Alabama with southern accents, would he have shot them? What about 3 middle aged white guys? Not likely. He vented his crazy rage against people as different from him as he could find. Considering that there are media outlets that portray Muslims in a negative way, emphasizing their "differences," I nominate the right wing media to take a share of the blame.
Mr. Hicks pulled the trigger. He was disagreeable with many but only targeted these three that were different enough to be disposable. In his mind, they didn't matter.
This was not the act of a sane man, to execute three people over a parking space. But let's change it to 3 white kids from Alabama with southern accents, would he have shot them? What about 3 middle aged white guys? Not likely. He vented his crazy rage against people as different from him as he could find. Considering that there are media outlets that portray Muslims in a negative way, emphasizing their "differences," I nominate the right wing media to take a share of the blame.
Mr. Hicks pulled the trigger. He was disagreeable with many but only targeted these three that were different enough to be disposable. In his mind, they didn't matter.
56
This guy was an equal opportunity hater. He was obviously fixated on the complex in his area and took it upon himself to police it for the most minor infraction of its rules. The whole complex was his personal space. He would, for example, call tow trucks to tow cars parking in the wrong parking space. He complained of noise constantly. I think he took every challenge to his "authority" as a deep wound to his ego and would act accordingly. He had physical altercations in the past with other non-Muslim tenants who tried to prevent their cars from being towed. These poor propel had the misfortune to live near him.
People tend to kill people of their own race and faith. All but a tiny percent of murders in Alabama and other Southern states are interracial and intra-faith murders. Interracial and intra-faith murders are relatively rare. People are much more likely to kill each other over some silly dispute than over race or religion. The apartment complex Hicks lives in has residents of many different races and cultures. He shot people assigned a parking space adjacent to his own parking space.
1
You mean Obama and the White House staff didn't say, "Those folks were randomly killed because they happened to be in a parking lot."??
You know, there were other people in that parking lot who were not Muslims.
You know, there were other people in that parking lot who were not Muslims.
11
Unfortunately, latest reports say that the women were in the kitchen and the husband was in the doorway. So the murders happened in their home, not the parking lot. It may have been about the parking, but the victims' car was not in "his" spot. Hicks' unit was in the same building as the victims.
So tragic that 3 Americans were killed by what appears to be at least a mildly deranged yahoo. Really sad. But FBI involvement at this point is unnecessary federal overreach. Murder is a state offense, and at this point there's not a shred of evidence that the NC authorities are taking the case lightly or downplaying its seriousness based on the religion/ethnicity of the victims. There's also not yet, that's been released at least, any evidence that this is a hate crime other than the belief of the family...with no evidence presented. The span of the federal government is absolutely out of control. Is anything solely in the state or local purview any more?
14
The local police asked the FBI to assist in the investigation. The FBI has not taken over but is conducting a parallel investigation to determine whether there is a federal case. I actually agree with your assessment of the crime, based on what I have read so far. But the murderer's choice of victims has created an international relations catastrophe. The US government is in a predicament and desparately attempting to contain the crisis.
this is exactly why the president will not use the phrase "radical islamic terrorists'" and is trying to explain that islam is not a source of violence. everyone should support his attempts to defuse fear and suspicion, which can lead to tragedies like this. although we do not have all the facts, an intolerant climate is being created where just the sight of a woman in a head scarf can set someone off. politicians and journalists need to stop pushing the president to declare war on radical islam, which to haters here and muslims abroad sounds very much like war on islam itself.
8
Was this a hate crime? I've come to see that any cross=racial crime is a hate crime. Had these students been Jewish, or black, and the murderer white, we surely would have called it a hate crime. I sadly conclude that the "color-blind", "race-blind" social contract of my long-ago youth was just another myth, like the long-ago myth of the "melting pot."
But how are we to go forward on this issue as a nation?
But how are we to go forward on this issue as a nation?
22
To date, this is NOT a hate crime. And any cross-racial crime is not automatically a hate crime. Honestly, had these students been white Christians, it would have made the news as a horrible crime, but not as a hate crime. It doesn't make us more sensitive or understanding to twist reality as is being done. All told, we live in a fairly religiously tolerant country with a few crazies. Let's celebrate that, not find religious intolerance where there is none.
10
"Had these students been Jewish, or black, & the murderer white, we surely would have called it a hate crime."
That is simply not true, at all.
There are many instances of black or Jewish victims of white murders that are not called hate crimes. I can think of dozens off the top of my head.
So how do we go forward as a nation if we continue to use Muslims as symbols?
For many conservatives, Muslims are part of an evil religion and movement, "the evil other."
But they are every bit as much of a symbol for liberals. For liberals, Muslims are symbols of The Victim of The West, and tolerance of them stands for Western progressive thought. They are little brown peoples whom liberals generously 'tolerate' as a symbol of their own open-mindedness. (This is why liberals mistakenly term hatred for them as 'racism' when it in fact has literally zero to do with race, as Muslims are of all races, and many are white.)
For conservatives, Muslims can do no right & are always perpetrators. But for Liberals, Muslims can do no wrong & are always victims. If they do wrong - if they murder in the name of their religion, commit hate crimes against Jews, etc - liberals redefine their religion itself; they literally tell Muslims they are not really Muslims under their own Western-centric definition; so that they can still believe Muslims can do no wrong & are victims.
Muslims are not symbols. They are people. To treat them as symbols of your own desires is to me the ultimate bigotry.
That is simply not true, at all.
There are many instances of black or Jewish victims of white murders that are not called hate crimes. I can think of dozens off the top of my head.
So how do we go forward as a nation if we continue to use Muslims as symbols?
For many conservatives, Muslims are part of an evil religion and movement, "the evil other."
But they are every bit as much of a symbol for liberals. For liberals, Muslims are symbols of The Victim of The West, and tolerance of them stands for Western progressive thought. They are little brown peoples whom liberals generously 'tolerate' as a symbol of their own open-mindedness. (This is why liberals mistakenly term hatred for them as 'racism' when it in fact has literally zero to do with race, as Muslims are of all races, and many are white.)
For conservatives, Muslims can do no right & are always perpetrators. But for Liberals, Muslims can do no wrong & are always victims. If they do wrong - if they murder in the name of their religion, commit hate crimes against Jews, etc - liberals redefine their religion itself; they literally tell Muslims they are not really Muslims under their own Western-centric definition; so that they can still believe Muslims can do no wrong & are victims.
Muslims are not symbols. They are people. To treat them as symbols of your own desires is to me the ultimate bigotry.
2
hmmm. Seems to me that a nut case with a history of anger and prejudice against young people shooting 2 women and a man in the head assasination-style certainly constitutes a hate crime. Just because he was an atheist doesn't mean he didn't hate anyone who didn't toe his line. The history of confrontation is clearly there. This is a hate crime of a different color. Another strong indicator of the need to ban weapons to the general population. It's too bad none of the neighbors reported him to the police earlier for acting in a menacing fashion. Maybe this could have been prevented..... although it sounds like the police down there wouldn't have done anything.
Clearly this case has to do with more than what concerns local officials. It must be examined at the federal level.
Hate crime or not, the case is the latest in a long and widening trail of of senselessness visited upon innocent Americans by the ready, unregulated, unchecked 24/7 profusion of guns to warped and criminal individuals, no questions asked.
This is insane, and we let this festering sore become ever more inflamed.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Hate crime or not, the case is the latest in a long and widening trail of of senselessness visited upon innocent Americans by the ready, unregulated, unchecked 24/7 profusion of guns to warped and criminal individuals, no questions asked.
This is insane, and we let this festering sore become ever more inflamed.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
14
From everything I have read about this guy, he was an overall angry an unstable man who directed that anger at everyone he encountered--not just at Muslims. He didn't kill three Muslims based on their religion but rather they were the people who antagonized him the day he inevitably and tragically went over the edge. He should go to prison for murder but not for hate crimes. Using this tragedy to spotlight anti-Muslim prejudice, which is real, is problematic. (Similar to the feeling many people had regarding using Michael Brown's death to spotlight real issues with police prejudice/brutality against unarmed, unthreatening, lawabiding African-Americans).
17
What would be the responses in this country if three young, Christian, US students studying in a Muslim country, like Turkey, were gunned down? I am sure that there would be a major uproar in the United State. Our country's strength lies in keeping in our heart that "all men are created equal" and "the separation of church and state." Let justice be done and investigate the motivation of their killer.
11
Why do people second-guess Obama's motives? Perhaps, as the leader of a multi-ethnic nation of 300 million people, he would simply like to avoid violence among his own people by appealing to their common humanity. Sounds like part of the job description to me.
16
Tar and feather the atheists time. Proclaiming that one does not personally believe in God does not make one more likely to murder anyone. Some of the comments here are ridiculous.
10
Chapel Hill is to North Carolina what Austin is to Texas. It is generally very accepting of people of different cultures. What appears to be an act performed by someone that perhaps needed mental health care, and had a gun should not be interpreted as an indication of anything more than the act of this single person.
Certainly the south has some things in the past that are deeply shameful, but it is also shameful to paint a picture in public statements that insinuates that this is anything other than an individual, horrible crime.
As someone who enjoys shooting sports, I still say that the debate here should not be whether this was a hate crime or note, but whether or not someone like Mr. Hicks should have had a gun.
Certainly the south has some things in the past that are deeply shameful, but it is also shameful to paint a picture in public statements that insinuates that this is anything other than an individual, horrible crime.
As someone who enjoys shooting sports, I still say that the debate here should not be whether this was a hate crime or note, but whether or not someone like Mr. Hicks should have had a gun.
11
All of the reports from the local police (to this point) and investigators say that this was indeed perpetrated by someone who lost his sense of reason over someone continually parking in a space he regarded as his. If these were 3 Catholics, I suspect neither the President nor anyone else would be demanding that this be investigated as a hate crime. These were victims who happened to Muslims, not Muslims who were victimized. Some nut lost his sense of reason; that's not a basis on which to lose our's .....
23
If the three victims were Catholics, it would have been labeled a hate crime right off the bat.
1
I will not give another white man a pass. We do this every day. A white man commits mass murder and he's obviously insane...he "lost his sense of reason". A person of color would not get and does not get that benefit of the doubt.
This is what people are fed up with, including this white woman.
This is what people are fed up with, including this white woman.
16
When law enforcement itself is guilty of the same thing (only they don't call it a "hate crime", they call it "profiling"), how can we expect them to police hate crimes? The FBI essentially admitted that they engage in "mental shortcuts" which I translate to hate based shortcuts. Answer is we can't, which explains the low level usage of the "hate" enhancement. Hopefully, with the high-profile nature of this crime, if there was hate involved, we'll get an appropriate charge so those issues can be aired in a court of law. Either way the killer isn't likely to see freedom again.
1
The fundamental root of this tragedy is not the issue of religious intolerance. The facts muddy the water in this respect. Much more salient and undeniable is the irrepressible gun culture in this country and it's insidious ability to put deadly weapons in the hands of delusional, perpetually angry people. The NRA and it's political backers are nothing short of a cancer in our society.
22
So here is another dangerous, self-appointed neighborhood watchman with a gun. Three unwarranted deaths. I can't but wonder if he will be indicted and prosecuted for first-degree murder on three counts. Anything less would be miscarriage of justice. Reminds me of another gun-toting, neighborhood watchman - George Zimmerman. Lucky for George, he was in Florida. He went scot-free(!!!!)for murder. Unlucky for Hicks - he is not in Florida!
13
A hate crime, no doubt. But let's not ignore the fact that this guy seemed to hate a LOT of people; almost anyone near him. He was a proud and demonstrably nutty owner of guns - a love that the NRA will not allow ordinary Americans to criticize. This nut was known to grill his neighbors about their perceived infractions against him with gun in hand. Is that what the 2nd amendment really about? I say that it is not a license for nuts to brandish guns, at the very least.
We have on our hands a heinous tragedy, and a preventable one at that. We've lost 3 very good citizens because of one bad one.
We have on our hands a heinous tragedy, and a preventable one at that. We've lost 3 very good citizens because of one bad one.
18
Good thing he had that gun handy to defend his rights. Glad to see that worked out as planned.
It just keeps happening over and over. Whatever the ridiculous motivation for this crime, these extremely intelligent, and by all accounts decent, young people were robbed of their future by another cretin with easy access to a gun.
It just keeps happening over and over. Whatever the ridiculous motivation for this crime, these extremely intelligent, and by all accounts decent, young people were robbed of their future by another cretin with easy access to a gun.
20
This hair splittiing over "hate crime" is a bit over the top. If Mr. Hicks was an equal opportunity killer, it's a bit odd that he picked the ones who looked different, that wore muslim head scarves. who are we fooling?
Three promising young lives lost. the least we can do is honor their memory by giving them justice.
Three promising young lives lost. the least we can do is honor their memory by giving them justice.
15
I agree that justice should be done, but that doesn't include using them as political props. The problem with your judgment is you do not take into account all the facts. This was not random rather the crazy guy knew the victims which he had a problem with over parking for a while. I have seen what would be normally sane people to go ballistic over parking.
6
This is unequivocally a gruesome hate crime: it is an outrageous and a preposterous lie for police to claim that the summary execution of three young aspiring model Muslim citizens was due to a parking dispute. A politicized police is no police..such false claim insults our intelligence and the lovely memory of the three innocent souls. The whole Muslim world is outraged as it is saddened.
The pouring of support of the ChapelHill community is very comforting for the family of the victims and reflects on the decency of the American People as a whole. The condemnation of the president, thou a bit slow, and the FBI intended investigation are also comforting and sent a positive message to the community of several million American Muslims.
The pouring of support of the ChapelHill community is very comforting for the family of the victims and reflects on the decency of the American People as a whole. The condemnation of the president, thou a bit slow, and the FBI intended investigation are also comforting and sent a positive message to the community of several million American Muslims.
10
The President never got around to calling it terrorism when Major Nidal Hassan killed 13 people despite the individual's background of pro islamic anti American rhetoric. Apparently this individual in NC, a real nut case, never said anything anti-muslim. However the President presumes it is a religious hate crime.
25
He actually did post quite a lot of negative and hateful things about Islam and Muslims, as well as other religions, so you're incorrect.
Perhaps this is an appropriate time to, for once, not make the focus of your ire the President and, instead, direct it (if you must have it) at the shooter.
Perhaps this is an appropriate time to, for once, not make the focus of your ire the President and, instead, direct it (if you must have it) at the shooter.
8
Perhaps the final proof that this was a hate crime, is the small detail shown on several videos that the "offending" car was not in the killer's designated spot at all, but rather in the adjacent one. This was not a parking dispute. It was a demented brute with a deep hatred for the religious, finally unable to keep himself from killing them. Whether his hatred was broad or specific is beside the point. He hated a group of people, he killed them in cold blood. What he did is by definition a hate crime, and needs to be prosecuted as such.
23
Well he murdered 3 innocents. The death penalty will apply if he is convicted. So what is the point of the hate crime scenario? What would Wayne LaPierre think of all the guns this angry dude possesed?
1
Of course the investigation must be completed. But the symptoms point to hate crime; that's why the investigation has began.
Look at the young people, and how they were brutally killed. I have no mercy upon the killer whether it is hate crime or any other. He does not seem to be worried about what he had done; he seems to be very relaxed.
Criminals have certain privileges until the crime is proven in a court of justice. Still the accused of such brutal crimes must not have these many privileges.
Death of a any human being touches everyone's heart. I wish this criminal be tried, confirmed, and punished to the level he deserves. I still he must show at least some remorse for what he had done.
May the three souls be happy with the Creator in the Paradise! May the Creator counsel the families through His Angels/Devas!
Look at the young people, and how they were brutally killed. I have no mercy upon the killer whether it is hate crime or any other. He does not seem to be worried about what he had done; he seems to be very relaxed.
Criminals have certain privileges until the crime is proven in a court of justice. Still the accused of such brutal crimes must not have these many privileges.
Death of a any human being touches everyone's heart. I wish this criminal be tried, confirmed, and punished to the level he deserves. I still he must show at least some remorse for what he had done.
May the three souls be happy with the Creator in the Paradise! May the Creator counsel the families through His Angels/Devas!
10
I grieve for these children just reaching the flower of adulthood, lost to their loving parents and friends, and lost to our society as people poised to be contributors and difference makers. I grieve for their parents, for whom the gravity of this loss is beyond measure, and pray that the hole that has been created within their hearts will someday heal.
17
Just imagine the frothing if it were discovered that a Muslim killed 3 Christians instead.
29
I'm not sure a country where it's thought normal that three people can get killed over a parking dispute is much better than a country where three people die because they have been targeted as Muslims. It's good that President Obama has spoken out against hate crimes. I just wish something could be done about the violence, hate or not.
64
When three young adults doing everything right are slaughtered, executed, by a nut with a gun, what should be done?
Attack Obama for what he did not say or do and sulk that sulk. The Christian thing to do when three young adults doing everything right are slaughterd. Executed.
Trash is trash.
Attack Obama for what he did not say or do and sulk that sulk. The Christian thing to do when three young adults doing everything right are slaughterd. Executed.
Trash is trash.
5
Why do you raise the issue of Christianity at all? You need to look at your own bias. The victims were Muslim, the shooter atheist.
1
Is the investigation over? Are all of the available and relevant facts and pieces of evidence in? No? Until then, I'm going to try to keep my opinions under control and to myself.
We have a system in this Country and it's worked pretty well, though not always, for over 200 years. All of these cries for justice may, in fact, be distorting the judicial process.
We have a system in this Country and it's worked pretty well, though not always, for over 200 years. All of these cries for justice may, in fact, be distorting the judicial process.
39
How noble.
6
Philosophically, morally, and legally beyond reasonable doubt, I agree with your fundamental tenet. We must be careful even if we lived in the White House and let the American judicial process "process."
Just because these three unfortunate victims were Muslims doesn't mean they were killed because they were so anymore than being Democrats or Republicans would've made the crime a political expression.
Killing is inhuman and we have to wait before slicing it to particulars because then those actions may become part of our insane and inhuman characterizations. Looking for motives, reasons, or explanations, is degrading to us. Let's be patient. If it's proven that this suspect acted out of racial or religious intolerance then we can become outraged as we should, and so will I.
Just because these three unfortunate victims were Muslims doesn't mean they were killed because they were so anymore than being Democrats or Republicans would've made the crime a political expression.
Killing is inhuman and we have to wait before slicing it to particulars because then those actions may become part of our insane and inhuman characterizations. Looking for motives, reasons, or explanations, is degrading to us. Let's be patient. If it's proven that this suspect acted out of racial or religious intolerance then we can become outraged as we should, and so will I.
5
when a person that kills 3 people execution style, then turns himself in, i think your arguments about due process are a bit mute and fall in the same category as the hair splitting arguments about whether this was a hate crime or not.
4
Only one person can drive a car at a time and only one person can park a car at one time. So why kill 'three' people execution style over a parking dispute? As I see it, the fact that they were 'Muslims' and 'perceived to be immigrants', how dare they not be cowed by his demands as the 'real American'?
42
Because of our gun culture and tolerance for weirdos, it is totally believable that the murderer killed these people simply because of some perceived slight regarding parking. This guy was a bomb of hate for everyone (including Christians). The religion/dress of the victims had nothing to do with it. You are a foreigner without the knowledge of our culture. Don't try to look into this man's mixed up brain and tell us what motivated him.
1
AS IF this had nothing to do with being Muslim.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? PLEASE, parking lot argument people, give us all a break. It may have started with an argument over anything, but this murderer, who had thousands of arguments in his life, only EXECUTED the Muslims because Muslims have been dehumanized in political propaganda for over a decade.
He probably thought his peers in North Carolina would similarly "understand" or "sympathize" with him. Dehumanization propaganda is powerful. NC has to step-up on this one. They seem to be doing that.
These three kids were great Americans. What an example. What an appalling tragedy.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? PLEASE, parking lot argument people, give us all a break. It may have started with an argument over anything, but this murderer, who had thousands of arguments in his life, only EXECUTED the Muslims because Muslims have been dehumanized in political propaganda for over a decade.
He probably thought his peers in North Carolina would similarly "understand" or "sympathize" with him. Dehumanization propaganda is powerful. NC has to step-up on this one. They seem to be doing that.
These three kids were great Americans. What an example. What an appalling tragedy.
92
This has nothing to do with being in North Carolina; that's your own projection and judgment. Read your facts: the gunman previously lived in various places in the US. This comment only shows your own prejudice toward southerners, which is also a form of bigotry. And yet, in fact, the community in which this happened. as a whole, is an inclusive and progressive multicultural community.
8
Those 'inclusive, progressive and multicultural' people of whom you speak are for the most part there from other states for educational purposes or tech jobs in Research Triangle Park. As a native of North Carolina born during the Apartheid era (Jim Crow) I can say with authority that the animosity felt towards 'Southerners' is grounded largely in undeniable facts. It may be 2015 but some people there are still stuck in 1955!
3
Give it a rest with that "NC needs to step up."
Who cares if it's a hate crime or not? These innocent people are simply dead. If a crime is committed against someone the only relevance motive might have is in the case that there are mitigating circumstances. In this case, problems with parking are a poor plea by any accused for mercy.
30
"Who cares if it's a hate crime or not? "
well, from the legal point of view, murder that is a hate crime has an altogether different "punishment " schedule than "ordinary" murder.
It certainly looks like it to me. If he had a run-in with the car owner, that would be one thing, but killing 3 people certainly stands out as exceptional. also, given the fact that this is North Caroline with a long history of lynchings--see the Times article a few days ago--one would suspect that the guy is a racist even though his wife denies. Look how the South has treated our President, who happens to be Black.
3 people have died for a dispute that shouldn't have even warranted a punch in the nose. People have low tolerance these days.
well, from the legal point of view, murder that is a hate crime has an altogether different "punishment " schedule than "ordinary" murder.
It certainly looks like it to me. If he had a run-in with the car owner, that would be one thing, but killing 3 people certainly stands out as exceptional. also, given the fact that this is North Caroline with a long history of lynchings--see the Times article a few days ago--one would suspect that the guy is a racist even though his wife denies. Look how the South has treated our President, who happens to be Black.
3 people have died for a dispute that shouldn't have even warranted a punch in the nose. People have low tolerance these days.
1
In the face of the tragedy, the execution-style killing of three young Americans, it is not surprising that the families of the victims would consider the crime motivated by hate. However, this charge was made even before the slightest understanding of the perpetrator became known. It is clearer now that he was considered as asocial by other residents of the condo. It is also clearer that his religious orientation is that of a militant atheist. It is also quite possible that he just hated the people who used the parking spot he considered to be his own.
Not surprisingly, great humanitarians, such as Erdogan, the Ottoman wannabe, have chosen to shift public attention from what Muslims routinely do out of hate to what an atheist may have done out of hate - if his clouded mind can be made to reveal his intentions. At the same time American Muslims are very quiet about the executions carried out in throughout the world, e.g., in Paris, Sydney, Brussels and Islamabad, that targeted non-Muslims and Muslims who practice a minority sect of Islam. What about the Coptic Christians targeted by Egyptian and Libyan Muslims?
Is Mr. Obama offering an olive branch to the American Muslim community, or is he practicing realpolitik by placating Muslim dominated countries with whom the U.S. wants on board for its war on ISIS, or both? Why doesn't he demand reciprocity from both America's "allies" - Turkey (in NATO), and Jordan (in the midst of a great awakening)?
Not surprisingly, great humanitarians, such as Erdogan, the Ottoman wannabe, have chosen to shift public attention from what Muslims routinely do out of hate to what an atheist may have done out of hate - if his clouded mind can be made to reveal his intentions. At the same time American Muslims are very quiet about the executions carried out in throughout the world, e.g., in Paris, Sydney, Brussels and Islamabad, that targeted non-Muslims and Muslims who practice a minority sect of Islam. What about the Coptic Christians targeted by Egyptian and Libyan Muslims?
Is Mr. Obama offering an olive branch to the American Muslim community, or is he practicing realpolitik by placating Muslim dominated countries with whom the U.S. wants on board for its war on ISIS, or both? Why doesn't he demand reciprocity from both America's "allies" - Turkey (in NATO), and Jordan (in the midst of a great awakening)?
106
Why not just take Obama's statement at face value rather than asking why he didn't link this tragedy to other geopolitical issues?
40
How do you know that the American Muslim community in the US did not condemn the violence in Paris or other parts of the world? The muslim organizations constantly issue press releases and statements, but who listens to them? Does our media give coverage to what the muslim communities have had to say? No. Even this tragedy was covered by the local media only after the international and social outlets had started broadcasting this news. So give me a break. Every time there is an outrageous event like this, the most common complaint seems to be 'haven't heard any muslims speak up against violence in other parts of the world". Well, guess what, these were US citizens, and this happened in a country of civil liberties and laws to protect all kinds of freedoms, unlike the brutality of terrorists and dictators that occurs in war zones for the most part.
And by the way, the Turkish prime minister was present at the rally in Paris, stood by the people of France and condemned the violence. So lets be better informed about world facts.
And by the way, the Turkish prime minister was present at the rally in Paris, stood by the people of France and condemned the violence. So lets be better informed about world facts.
56
That some Muslims elsewhere in the world commit hateful crimes or that American Muslims have not denounced those crimes to your personal satisfaction within the limited, media-controlled range of platforms open to them and, further, to which you happen to pay some attention does not in the least lower the threshold for investigating potential hate crimes against entirely different, entirely innocent, average, everyday Muslim Americans. Any insinuation that somehow it does is highly offensive, an example of the worst kind of group-guilt bigotry that is the bane of America and the world today.
22
Murder under any circumstances is always terrible. The media is flaming the hate crime fire by continually listing them as Muslims. Do we identify the religion of everyone else murdered in this country? Why don't we let the police investigate first.
98
When a person of color commits a crime in the US they are automatically labelled as such - Black, African - American, Asian, Hispanic, etc. And if they are the victims the character assassination usually precedes the police investigation - Remember Trayvon Martin - 'the thug' or Michael Brown - 'the thug'? The real reason that some people want to down play that these students were killed because of their faith is because it doesn't fit the narrative that Muslims are always the perpetrators and never the victims. Or it is the guilt of knowing the flames of Muslim hatred have been fanned to a fever pitch these days and no one wants to feel they contributed to it. Everyone's actions have consequences.
4
Because if the situation was reversed and a Muslim had murdered any other individual, people immediately label the perpetrator a terrorist.
5
Why is it that whenever a Muslim is involved in a crime, they are always listed as Muslim? Why is it that I never see Muslims in the media being portrayed like the Muslims I know? Why are they always seen as savages and terrorists? Why was there no accountability for the recent hate messages against Arabs and Muslims on social media that was inspired by Hollywood? Unfortunately, most Americans have not had the privilege I've had to know Muslims like Dhea, Yusor, and Razan. For many, it only makes sense whenever a Muslim is identified as the shooter, or when they are being shot by an American hero. This tragedy has shaken an entire community of Muslim Americans everywhere. Islam shaped the way these kids lived their lives, Islam is the reason why they served people of all different backgrounds in the Chapel Hill community and abroad. Yes, there are many Americans who identify with a religion. I am a Christian, but you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at me. Furthermore, I recognize that I have more privileges as a Christian-American (which is more the 'norm') than a Muslim-American. Would Hicks have shot Orthodox Jews? Maybe. Would Hicks have shot an atheist who had parked in his spot? Atheism was very important to him, and he certainly would not have killed someone with his beliefs. Religion has everything to do with this tragedy.
Why are people so upset about listing these innocent victims as Muslims?
Why are people so upset about listing these innocent victims as Muslims?
15
A UNCG colleague who heard a family member speak out noted that the students' code of hospitality (part of their religion, yes, but also obviously practiced by them in a wholehearted way) warranted that they invite a neighbor into their home. It was this hospitality that caused them to avoid calling the police when the man harassed them at earlier times. It was this belief in the fundamental value of hospitality towards even an irate neighbor that allowed this man through their front door. Here in Greensboro we are taking this set of events as an opportunity to talk with students, neighbors, Others, about how everyone needs to feel safe and supported. Not only students who wear hijab feel scared right now; so do students of color--anyone who can be singled out as "not white" is feeling vulnerable right now. Allah yusallmak, everyone.
65
Some of my friends on the left were incredulous that the defendant wasn't some Bible thumping Christian. And even more intrigued when it was revealed that he is an atheist.
But Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were atheists. They killed millions. So why the surprise?
But Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were atheists. They killed millions. So why the surprise?
58
I'm surprised the Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot link came up so soon - great job!
The commonality of their acts and the acts of religious butchers is worshipful followers, not the belief or absence thereof by the chief. Without worshipful followers, how far would the Pope have gotten with the Inquisition or Crusades. Without worshipful followers, how far would Stalin have gotten.
It's worship, not deity or lack thereof. I'm careful to avoid those that worship, because the object of their worship can change.
The commonality of their acts and the acts of religious butchers is worshipful followers, not the belief or absence thereof by the chief. Without worshipful followers, how far would the Pope have gotten with the Inquisition or Crusades. Without worshipful followers, how far would Stalin have gotten.
It's worship, not deity or lack thereof. I'm careful to avoid those that worship, because the object of their worship can change.
12
It's horrific to think that the lives of these three young people were cut short for any reason, but in particular because of a parking spot or religious identity. Hopefully our criminal justice system will deliver a just verdict.
I can appreciate the anguish and concerns that Muslims living in the U.S. might have as to being singled out. Our society should not tolerate such actions or prejudice.
I do have a question about the responses in Turkey and other Muslim countries. We're they proportional to the ISIS killings? I hope so.
I can appreciate the anguish and concerns that Muslims living in the U.S. might have as to being singled out. Our society should not tolerate such actions or prejudice.
I do have a question about the responses in Turkey and other Muslim countries. We're they proportional to the ISIS killings? I hope so.
16
The perpetrator is an atheist. Anyone, of any faith was probably in danger from this individual. A Sikh wearing a turban, a nun, a priest or Rabbi.
28
Yet he targeted two women wearing hijab and a Muslim male.... still think it's not a hate crime?
12
Well Pete, while he yelled and menaced others, he chose those three and only those three to shoot in the head in their home
4
I find this president truly amazing. He immediately labels this terrible murder (which it unmistakenly is) as religiously and or ethnically motivated ( which it certainly may have been or not depending on what we learn about the killer) but the murder of Jews in a kosher deli is just the random killing of some "folks" in a random deli.
78
He constantly jumps in and rapidly politicizes local crimes, without regard to any investigation. This is something I don't recall any President ever doing, and I'm 67 years old. And he does it repeatedly.
26
I agree, LC. I voted for Obama twice; I still like him. But, as you pointed out, he's developed a habit of opening his mouth very quickly in these situations. He doesn't need to. Yes, he's President, but does he have all the facts? Is the investigation completed? If the answer is "no" , any public official should keep his/her own counsel.
25
You are right. Why does he jump in all the time: Perhaps....ABC News, Dec 14, 2014:
President and Michelle Obama personally identify with everyday experiences of racial bias in America that have underpinned recent protests across the country, they told People magazine in an interview to be released Friday.
“Barack Obama was a black man that lived on the South Side of Chicago, who had his share of troubles catching cabs," Michelle Obama told the magazine.
On one occasion, she said, her husband “was wearing a tuxedo at a black-tie dinner, and somebody asked him to get coffee.”
President Obama said he's even been mistakenly treated as a valet.
“There’s no black male my age, who’s a professional, who hasn’t come out of a restaurant and is waiting for their car and somebody didn’t hand them their car keys," he said, according to excerpts of the interview released today.
President and Michelle Obama personally identify with everyday experiences of racial bias in America that have underpinned recent protests across the country, they told People magazine in an interview to be released Friday.
“Barack Obama was a black man that lived on the South Side of Chicago, who had his share of troubles catching cabs," Michelle Obama told the magazine.
On one occasion, she said, her husband “was wearing a tuxedo at a black-tie dinner, and somebody asked him to get coffee.”
President Obama said he's even been mistakenly treated as a valet.
“There’s no black male my age, who’s a professional, who hasn’t come out of a restaurant and is waiting for their car and somebody didn’t hand them their car keys," he said, according to excerpts of the interview released today.
6
It seems that this was a hate crime, but not a hate crime against Muslims, or even against religious people in general. Based on interviews with other neighbors, it seems like that the murderer is a sociopath / psychopath who hates humanity.
Dan Kravitz
Dan Kravitz
89
That beautiful young couple's wedding picture brought tears to my old eyes. The US culture of hate, anger and guns has become frightening. My prayers are with their families.
70
This hate-based New Atheism has felt to me like a wind-up for something. I don't think most of the purveyors of the new pseudo-enlightened intolerance are capable of violence. But they do fan the flames of hatred in their exuberant verbal rhetoric against religion, and I am not surprised at all that an actual deadly fire has finally broken out. Like I said, all of this talk is like a wind-up for something. I hope this is as bad as it gets.
20
Going out on a limb here...I would bet that atheists (it doesn't need to be capitalized since it is not a religion) have on average fewer guns per capita than Christians, so they obviously aren't planning to take the country down.
This man seemed to act only on his intolerance for noisy people and parking spot hogs. Was he protesting and intimidating church goers in his spare time? Doesn't seem to be the case. He personally bullied parking hogs and people he thought were disturbing him.
Really doesn't seem like atheism had anything to do with this.
This man seemed to act only on his intolerance for noisy people and parking spot hogs. Was he protesting and intimidating church goers in his spare time? Doesn't seem to be the case. He personally bullied parking hogs and people he thought were disturbing him.
Really doesn't seem like atheism had anything to do with this.
21
I would say that militant atheism is a religion in itself. If someone is an atheist - fine. But the - preaching - by people like Richard Dawkins strikes me as kind of strange.
4
David, this brand of denial is very commonplace right now and serves as a form of enabling for the winding-up rhetoric of hate being put out by now by so many of the leaders of the New Atheist movement.
I do not care if Christians have more guns than atheists. These three people were murdered. It's not a statistical event. It's a multiple homicide, execution-style. Religious believers were just been removed from the world by a man who hates religion. That is certainly about atheism -- it's about where atheism is heading today.
I do not care if Christians have more guns than atheists. These three people were murdered. It's not a statistical event. It's a multiple homicide, execution-style. Religious believers were just been removed from the world by a man who hates religion. That is certainly about atheism -- it's about where atheism is heading today.
6
Is there any evidence whatsoever that this was motivated by anti-Muslim sentiment? Any at all? Or is just more of the NYT looking for racism and hatred against all religions other than Christianity?
The crime is horrible enough without the usual suspects jumping on the tombstones to make their predictable ideological "point"?
The crime is horrible enough without the usual suspects jumping on the tombstones to make their predictable ideological "point"?
60
No evidence. Not yet.
The President jumped the gun. It fits his agenda.
He's a lawyer and should know better to speak out on a pending case. Its a pattern. He thinks nothing of trampling on the rights of the criminally charged.
The President jumped the gun. It fits his agenda.
He's a lawyer and should know better to speak out on a pending case. Its a pattern. He thinks nothing of trampling on the rights of the criminally charged.
28
Yes, there is. There are also multiple Facebook posts attributed to him directly referring to Muslims - and I assume not in a flattering light.
16
Robert you are very very very wrong, and his birth certificate was real and he is the President. This has become an international stain on this country- you know the kind of things presidents address. I am in NC and I can tell you it is full of gun toting swaggering types itching to display their "guns." But, even here parking arguements are not settled by barging into an apartment and shooting people in the head. He was and is not crazy, he was a good student and never was there a breath of insanity even from his soon to be ex-wife. Angry but not crazy. Oh that "criminally charged" pretty much trampled on those kids, evidentlt missed in your note.
6
In the wake of the murder of those three wonderful, beautiful young people, no one seems to be acknowledging the elephant in the room: In most civilized countries, a parking dispute between neighbors, whether or not religious bias is in the background, might have resulted in a barrage of ugly words or at worst a sock in the jaw. But in the good ol' U.S. of A., where an emotionally disturbed individual can wear a gun on his hip with impunity, we now have three corpses.
Such things and worse will keep happening . . . and happening . . . until we as a nation get beyond our cowboy mentality and gun fetishism. But don't hold your breath.
Such things and worse will keep happening . . . and happening . . . until we as a nation get beyond our cowboy mentality and gun fetishism. But don't hold your breath.
256
America's problem certainly seems to be raging anger and hatred that is funneled into violence by the ease of access to guns. But it is incredibly naive to say that other countries don't have these kinds of problems. Other countries have their own problems, such as lashing bloggers who write politically incorrect things, wiping out one ethnic group, imprisoning a woman who chooses to drive when females are prohibited from doing so, throwing gays off of buildings as punishment for being gay.
I am surprised, or should I be, that the local police initially said the killings arose out of a parking dispute, and did not appear to be a hate crime or racially motivated. I have heard of people getting shot in [heated] parking disputes, but three young people executed on the spot by shots in the head, two of whom apparently dressed in traditional Muslim clothing, were not killed because of a parking dispute.
44
The criminally insane are quite capable of shooting for no reason at all. Perhaps judgment on this matter should await a competent psychological evaluation. The defense attorney most likely will request one.
38
So if one is in Muslim dress when murdered, the murder is because one is a Muslim; that's it?
37
It is certainly possible that this is a hate crime but as of yet there is no data. You say it is obviously a hate crime--How do you know? Your logic is that it must be a hate crime because the victims are Muslim. So when three Chinese students were killed by an unbalanced white student in California, did you call that a hate crime? Why not? A hate crime is when a murderer kills his victims specifically because of their race or religion. It cannot be called a hate crime simply because the victims are one specific religion or race. That isn't the law.
26
Is it a hate crime to be opposed to all religion? This man probably would have killed a Buddhist monk, or a nun - anyone that manifested any faith. Do hate crime laws cover this?
6
lbarnett77:
"Is it a hate crime to be opposed to all religion?"
It's not a hate crime, or any other kind of crime, to be opposed to all religion. The "crime" part comes in when this opposition involves homicide.
"This man probably would have killed a Buddhist monk, or a nun - anyone that manifested any faith. Do hate crime laws cover this?"
The answer is -- yes. Any hate crime law that did not treat all religions equally would be unconstitutional.
"Is it a hate crime to be opposed to all religion?"
It's not a hate crime, or any other kind of crime, to be opposed to all religion. The "crime" part comes in when this opposition involves homicide.
"This man probably would have killed a Buddhist monk, or a nun - anyone that manifested any faith. Do hate crime laws cover this?"
The answer is -- yes. Any hate crime law that did not treat all religions equally would be unconstitutional.
3
You put your finger on what makes me uncomfortable with "hate crimes." The hate part. It should be protected by the First Amendment. Sadly, it's not.
The statutory crime of murder is sufficient to handle the horrible act apparently committed by this man. He will go away forever or be executed by the State of North Carolina.
The statutory crime of murder is sufficient to handle the horrible act apparently committed by this man. He will go away forever or be executed by the State of North Carolina.
13
Patricia,
My question is Does it have to be a specific faith? All faiths are treated equally, of course, but what does the law say about all-encompassing hate? Of course murder is a crime.
My question is Does it have to be a specific faith? All faiths are treated equally, of course, but what does the law say about all-encompassing hate? Of course murder is a crime.
1
Since we still do not know what set off the killer, I had been hoping the president's remarks would avoid the easy but potentially incorrect religious motive, and focus instead on the painfully obvious: too many righteous people have guns. Angry curmudgeons should not be able to own guns.
106
Why wouldn't this be a terrorist act, as opposed to a hate crime?
12
Terrorists have a poltical agenda. Mr Hicks does not.
1
This case has me questioning the usefulness of classifying criminal acts as hate crimes. Does it make this act any less repugnant if it was a dispute over a parking spot? Even if it was motivated by racial or religious hatred I don't see how that should affect the punishment if deemed guilty. If these were my family who were killed I would want the person responsible to face the same repercussions, regardless of their motivation for committing the act.
57
These were truly beautiful people, fill of life and peace, Their happiness speaks in the pictures of their faces; so does their innocence. As the groom's brother said in an interview, "we must fight hate, together." All forms, but especially our own darkest visions.
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