While 1938 was a long time ago, it seems that Neville Chamberlain's speech writers are still alive and writing; "buying peace in our time" has normally been the prelude to futher demands..
6
I can't help but see parallels between Hitler's justification for invading Poland and other countries with large minorities of Germans, and Putin's "invasion", on behalf of Russians in the Ukraine. Has the world, particularly Europe, forgotten their history? Have we all forgotten the Crimea?
6
Better that add some and keep things in place until Ukraine's original borders are back in place and separatists have, greater autonomy. EU & west should focus financial aide and development on western Ukraine. The breakaway areas in Georgia have seen little interest from Russia since they achieved autonomy.
Inhabitants of eastern Ukraine must be the only people on earth clamoring to be part of Putin's kleptocracy. Why not want let them go? The rest of Ukraine would be better off. In a decade or so western Ukraine could have a healthy, diversified economy akin to Poland. Protecting civil liberties and the rule of law won't be easy, but can be done. NATO membership would provide additional security. Meanwhile, something in the Russian soul seems to require a "strong man" autocracy (new autocrats depose the old ones in an endless cycle). Let the Russians live this way if they so desire.
5
I wonder if Russia's neighbors and former subjects like the Baltic states share the Western powers' self-congratulations for this supposed peace settlement. This may be great for France and Germany, who can get back to importing Russian natural gas and selling warships to Russia. For Russia's neighbors, it's an unpleasant reality-check: the Western powers are not your friends, and Russia can still annex your territory and dictate your internal policies.
3
Good to see Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande scuttling around in their shuttle diplomacy. They pointedly have made it clear that they do not want our arms. It is their war to deal with. Let them do it their way. Let's not go where we are NOT wanted. Leave them to their own devices and let them deal with the consequences. Yes, we could contribute and help in a cost-effective way for us - SANCTIONS!
4
This will not last. Europe still has not figured out that appeasement never has stopped a tyrant. You fools already ceeded Crimea. But here we go again...
Watch your backsides there Latvia, Estonia and Poland.
Watch your backsides there Latvia, Estonia and Poland.
5
I fail to understand why the US and EU feel it is necessary to walk on eggshells when dealing with Putin. Putin is able to ravage Ukraine because he is willing to send in heavy weapons and his little green men while the US and EU can't even agree to send small arms to Ukraine. If the outcome is that Putin's policies successfully allow him to seize eastern Ukraine and Crimea his popularity will rise higher and, most troubling of all, he will employ this strategy against other nations since it will have been successful in Ukraine.
Not only should we be sending defensive weapons to Ukraine, we should be sending them to EVERY country that shares a border with Russia that wants them. Putin needs to know that while he may have won Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, that will be the full extent of his victories.
Not only should we be sending defensive weapons to Ukraine, we should be sending them to EVERY country that shares a border with Russia that wants them. Putin needs to know that while he may have won Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, that will be the full extent of his victories.
5
The cease-fire will not stick. The only thing that has stuck is Western Europe's lack of backbone in face of tyrants. Not much has changed in 70 years.
6
Already the Kremlin is distancing itself from the cease fire, saying it can't guarantee anything on the ground since they supposedly don't have troops there or supplying any arms to those thugs-called rebels. Just like the first cease fire, they gave Putin almost everything, why? Since he is not involved there in Ukraine, why has he asked and gotten some much? Merkel and Co. fell for it, cowed down, caved in, and bent over for him... and she doesn't want to help Ukraine defend itself by send arms? This is "negotiating"? All I can say now is Goodby Ukraine, you've been sold out!!!!
4
To say that the Ukraine war is incontrovertibly Mr. Putan's war as this editorial does is a surprising partial truth. With two of our senators, a group of our State Department officials, and a pack of NATO military personnel leading the way we went into Ukraine and very shortly were instrumental in ousting the elected government and installing the chocolate oligarch as the head of what is in effect "our" replacement government, on Russia's borders. The statement that the Ukraine war is "incontrovertibly" Mr. Putin's war with any validity would have to give Mr. Putin "credit" for bringing Senator McCain and his associate into Ukraine along with the State Department officials and the NATO contingent, as well as for ousting the elected government. Half the truth is not all the news that's fit to print, and incontrovertible is a strange word to use for something that leaves out the background facts.
10
Drive thru any city in US, drug dealers on many corners, 16-25 year olds hanging at malls/convenience stores, skateboarders damaging parks/public buildings and way to many of the same clogging our roads with their inept driving style. Admit it we could use a major war with a re-institution of the draft. That will clean things up !!!
The whole world is in economic dire straits, we are somewhat better off than most we are told. Lets see how good we really are. Blockade and carpet bomb the Russians, let the Germans/French/Turks know that if they are not in there will be trade/geopolitical repercussions. Ramp it up, outspend the Russians. What are we afraid of? China? Islamists? We have most of the EU, most of the east, Canada/Australia and Mexico on our side. If China goes against the grain we turn on them too. We have most of the money, most of the clout so go for it.
The worst that could happen is we loose. Russia would give us borcht and entrails. But the malls, convenience stores, parks and roads would be as they were 40 years ago.
The whole world is in economic dire straits, we are somewhat better off than most we are told. Lets see how good we really are. Blockade and carpet bomb the Russians, let the Germans/French/Turks know that if they are not in there will be trade/geopolitical repercussions. Ramp it up, outspend the Russians. What are we afraid of? China? Islamists? We have most of the EU, most of the east, Canada/Australia and Mexico on our side. If China goes against the grain we turn on them too. We have most of the money, most of the clout so go for it.
The worst that could happen is we loose. Russia would give us borcht and entrails. But the malls, convenience stores, parks and roads would be as they were 40 years ago.
1
Ukraine has been betrayed by the West twice, first when Ukrainian thugs were robbing the country blind and parking their riches in the banks in Geneva, Vienna and London, with tacit approval of the Western governments, and the second time when lethally damaging "peace" terms were imposed on Ukraine yesterday.
This editorial listed all the ways in which this deal is awful for Ukraine, furthers Russian goals of aggression, and will not bring peace, but Ukraine should accepted it because... it will not bring peace anyway?
This editorial listed all the ways in which this deal is awful for Ukraine, furthers Russian goals of aggression, and will not bring peace, but Ukraine should accepted it because... it will not bring peace anyway?
4
Do not overestimate Putin. He has generally failed thus far in his efforts in Ukraine and at a great cost to Russia. Efforts to intimidate the Ukraine, E U and U S by massing Russian troops on the Ukrainian border were unsuccessful. Putin expected a general pro-Russian uprising in eastern Ukraine – instead he got a group of thugs that had to be bailed out by Russian troops and equipment. He finally resorted to the clandestine incursion of “volunteer” Russian troops in a drive for a land bridge to the Crimea, but it was blocked by the strongly pro-Ukrainian populace around Maripoul. Putin has not stopped and may yet win the peace, but in the meantime Russia is suffering severely from economic sanctions and internal mismanagement.
Rather than spend billions on military aid for the Ukraine, the US should use the successful example of the Marshall Plan to target this money for economic development in the strategic city of Maripoul. If handled properly, this alternative both answers the need for strong action to stop Russian aggression and allows the US to showcase the greatest strength of life in a free country. Such a policy might even win some GOP support.
Steve Bickerstaff
Rather than spend billions on military aid for the Ukraine, the US should use the successful example of the Marshall Plan to target this money for economic development in the strategic city of Maripoul. If handled properly, this alternative both answers the need for strong action to stop Russian aggression and allows the US to showcase the greatest strength of life in a free country. Such a policy might even win some GOP support.
Steve Bickerstaff
2
There is nothing irresponsible in providing defensive weapons assistance to Ukraine. Even a broken clock is right twice a day and the GOP-dominated congress is right on this issue. Weakness in the face of Russian aggression will simply guarantee further aggression, if not in Ukraine then perhaps in Estonia next or Latvia or Lithuania with whom we have treaty obligations.
We may not be thrilled about enabling a more robust defence by the Ukrainians and the inevitable further loss of life, but we should be even less enamoured of participating in the dismemberment of a friendly sovereign nation to the benefit of Putin's Russia.
We may not be thrilled about enabling a more robust defence by the Ukrainians and the inevitable further loss of life, but we should be even less enamoured of participating in the dismemberment of a friendly sovereign nation to the benefit of Putin's Russia.
4
February 13, 2015
True Putin is the kingpin - in his very tough neighborhood - but then there are the average suffering masses - that once wanted to believe in a social rational and a united front. At lease the fire for the passions are quelled for now, and everyone must work to give hope, jobs, and compassion success. I believe things will improve and get on track as long as the media and social networking keep the story alive.
jja Manhattan, N. Y.
True Putin is the kingpin - in his very tough neighborhood - but then there are the average suffering masses - that once wanted to believe in a social rational and a united front. At lease the fire for the passions are quelled for now, and everyone must work to give hope, jobs, and compassion success. I believe things will improve and get on track as long as the media and social networking keep the story alive.
jja Manhattan, N. Y.
1
Ukraine was part of the soviet republics for many years. Crimea was part of the Russian empire since the XVIII century. The western powers allied to the Turks fought for it in 1853, and Crimea remained Russian even during the soviet revolution.
The film The Battleship Potemkin by Eisenstein in 1925, a well remembered master piece is set in the soviet Sebastopol.
It was only because of a whim by Nikita Krouchtchev that it was "transferred" without further ado or protest from any one in 1954 to Ukraine.
And what about the right to self determination.
Crimean voted massively to "return" to Russia. Don't they have a democratic right to do so?
Why would it be OK for Kosovo to separate itself from Serbia, or for many other people, and wrong for others
And should not the same right of self determination be allowed to the eastern part of Ukraine, all the more that they only want some autonomy and inter alia the right to speak their mother tongue.
And are not the dead and the wounded Russian speaking civilians who are shelled by the Kiev army?
If the Kiev government wants the "rebels" to surrender and cannot obtain it by itself, maybe they could ask Putin to bring in Russian military to do it?
The film The Battleship Potemkin by Eisenstein in 1925, a well remembered master piece is set in the soviet Sebastopol.
It was only because of a whim by Nikita Krouchtchev that it was "transferred" without further ado or protest from any one in 1954 to Ukraine.
And what about the right to self determination.
Crimean voted massively to "return" to Russia. Don't they have a democratic right to do so?
Why would it be OK for Kosovo to separate itself from Serbia, or for many other people, and wrong for others
And should not the same right of self determination be allowed to the eastern part of Ukraine, all the more that they only want some autonomy and inter alia the right to speak their mother tongue.
And are not the dead and the wounded Russian speaking civilians who are shelled by the Kiev army?
If the Kiev government wants the "rebels" to surrender and cannot obtain it by itself, maybe they could ask Putin to bring in Russian military to do it?
7
Everything is going according to the US plan: "Ukraine’s ultranationalistic Right Sector, whose leader Dmitry Yarosh today said his radical movement rejects the Minsk peace deal and that their paramilitary units in eastern Ukraine will continue “active fighting" according to their "own plans."
Looks like the long cold winter of Ukraine's discontent will continue, with violence unabated - that we can once again blame on Putin.
Looks like the long cold winter of Ukraine's discontent will continue, with violence unabated - that we can once again blame on Putin.
2
I believe the Minsk agreement will only embolden Putin to continue the policies based on brutal military force. We need to address it globally and strategically by defining our long term policies on confining Russian threats. This has to include better NATO preparedness, strengthening our strategic forces and particularly our antimissile defenses around the US and NATO perimeters. We also have to sign the transatlantic trade agreement with EU which should include mechanisms to protect EU from the trade dependence on Russia. The events of last year, and particularly last several months since the Minsk 1 agreement vividly showed an ugly, brutal and ruthless character of Putin Russia. This actually should not be any surprise because Putin have been clearly announcing this features for about two decades now. Our policies on Russia must be developed not just for months or a year but for a decade or more; we must stop stepping back and stop accepting Russia as it is now. It is our enemy.
2
"What remains incontrovertible is that Ukraine is Mr. Putin’s war." I'm not sure it's worth renewing my NYT subscription when I have to read such nonsense as the above.
Let's review: A US senator, McCain, was in Ukraine urging the West Ukrainians to foment a coup against a democratically-elected president. (Regular elections were due in May 15, only a few months later.) NuLand, Bremmer, Biden, and others were there also, egging them on.
Now, the Eastern Ukrainians are branded "rebels" for supporting the democratically-elected government, while the Western Ukrainians are obviously the rebels. But that's Western propaganda for you.
Let's review: A US senator, McCain, was in Ukraine urging the West Ukrainians to foment a coup against a democratically-elected president. (Regular elections were due in May 15, only a few months later.) NuLand, Bremmer, Biden, and others were there also, egging them on.
Now, the Eastern Ukrainians are branded "rebels" for supporting the democratically-elected government, while the Western Ukrainians are obviously the rebels. But that's Western propaganda for you.
2
Since it now looks like the Russian troops will conquer both the railway hub and the port prior to Sunday's truce, why would Mr. Putin then violate the truce? He has won everything he wanted: the Ukraine is neutered and he doesn't have to pay for it. What should happen, but never will, is that the Ukraine should just cede the conquered territory to Russia and make Russia provide the necessary services and money. The remaining territory can then be pro-West, and possibly even join Nato.
2
It is unfortunate that the Times readers and the Editorial Board have not read the agreement. It's a joke; has no specifics worth anything at all; and allows for no deadlines. But the readers and the Editorial Board do not need facts: Putin, the Thug, has diddled everyone and we must turn him into a pastrami sandwich. Oh, how the weak complain and need someone to blame for their sorry plight. In a year, the West will find out who is isolated...and it won't be Vlad. Perhaps the U.S. and Cuba can form their own security agreement.
4
Putin doesn't take any of these negotiations seriously. When the other diplomats head home, I'm sure he has a good laugh.
I fear the only thing that will make him stand down is a show of force from the West. Does anyone remember the tense days surrounding the Cuban Missile Crisis? Well, expect to see that again. Otherwise, the Ukrainians might as well hand over their country right now.
I fear the only thing that will make him stand down is a show of force from the West. Does anyone remember the tense days surrounding the Cuban Missile Crisis? Well, expect to see that again. Otherwise, the Ukrainians might as well hand over their country right now.
1
The Russians will simply use the ceasefire agreement to seize more territory. If weapons are pulled back by the Ukrainians, the Russian army - which is not there anyway - will move forward.
The press, including this newspaper, continues to refer to units of the Russian army as "pro-Russian separatists." It is time to call a rat a rat. Russia is carrying out this aggression. It is an invasion of a sovereign country.
If the Russian army isn't there, then Russia won't mind if the Ukrainians obtain Russian code books, maps and field radios from Russian forces.
We don't need to ship arms directly to Ukraine. If we provide the money the Ukrainians can buy weapons from any source they like.
We can ship millions of tons of logistical material - food, field kitchens, medicine, field hospitals, building materials, armored bulldozers, bridge building equipment, road building equipment, communications equipment, trucks, fuel, railroad building equipment, container port cranes, and other 21st century equipment to help the Ukrainians fight Russia.
Russia can lose the battle. We have the endless volume of supply lines that Russia does not have. In a shipping contest, Russia will eventually react by trying to close the supply line, interfering with shipping and preventing transportation. These will be acts of war by Russia, on the Black Sea or in the air.
It is either appeasement or opening the supply lines to the Ukraine. Putin is a gangster who will not back down.
The press, including this newspaper, continues to refer to units of the Russian army as "pro-Russian separatists." It is time to call a rat a rat. Russia is carrying out this aggression. It is an invasion of a sovereign country.
If the Russian army isn't there, then Russia won't mind if the Ukrainians obtain Russian code books, maps and field radios from Russian forces.
We don't need to ship arms directly to Ukraine. If we provide the money the Ukrainians can buy weapons from any source they like.
We can ship millions of tons of logistical material - food, field kitchens, medicine, field hospitals, building materials, armored bulldozers, bridge building equipment, road building equipment, communications equipment, trucks, fuel, railroad building equipment, container port cranes, and other 21st century equipment to help the Ukrainians fight Russia.
Russia can lose the battle. We have the endless volume of supply lines that Russia does not have. In a shipping contest, Russia will eventually react by trying to close the supply line, interfering with shipping and preventing transportation. These will be acts of war by Russia, on the Black Sea or in the air.
It is either appeasement or opening the supply lines to the Ukraine. Putin is a gangster who will not back down.
3
The agreement not in effect and already broken:
Poroshenko has already announced that he will not talk to the leaders of the Donbass and Luhansk.
Dimitry Yarosh, Right Sektor, had declared he will keep fighting and does not recognize Minsk II. Ukrainian army gave him 17 Battalions of troops for his Right Sektor milita paid for by Kolomoisky.
Pavlo Klimkin, Ukraine Foreign Ministers, says the amnesty does not apply to the leaders of Donbass and Luhask, as Kiev had passed a law in September 2014 that no amnesty would apply to Zakharchenko or Plotnisky thus that part of Minsk is invalid.
The Dutch are worried that the amnesty will include those that shot down MH17 - but we really have no names.
Lysenko, Ukrainian Army, says that no matter the result of the battle, Ukraine intends to keep Debaltseve as it was outside the old Minsk lines.
Now if anyone things that these statements indicate observance of the cease fire, you are living in a dream world. Ukraine has no intention to honor all the agreements of the cease fire. So Ukraine and Poroshenko have no intention of following the laws. One of the excuses given by people like Lysenako and Klimkin is that Poroshenko did NOT sign any document so they can ignore what the rebel leaders and the OSCE and Kuchma signed. This is the view from Kiev.
Poroshenko has already announced that he will not talk to the leaders of the Donbass and Luhansk.
Dimitry Yarosh, Right Sektor, had declared he will keep fighting and does not recognize Minsk II. Ukrainian army gave him 17 Battalions of troops for his Right Sektor milita paid for by Kolomoisky.
Pavlo Klimkin, Ukraine Foreign Ministers, says the amnesty does not apply to the leaders of Donbass and Luhask, as Kiev had passed a law in September 2014 that no amnesty would apply to Zakharchenko or Plotnisky thus that part of Minsk is invalid.
The Dutch are worried that the amnesty will include those that shot down MH17 - but we really have no names.
Lysenko, Ukrainian Army, says that no matter the result of the battle, Ukraine intends to keep Debaltseve as it was outside the old Minsk lines.
Now if anyone things that these statements indicate observance of the cease fire, you are living in a dream world. Ukraine has no intention to honor all the agreements of the cease fire. So Ukraine and Poroshenko have no intention of following the laws. One of the excuses given by people like Lysenako and Klimkin is that Poroshenko did NOT sign any document so they can ignore what the rebel leaders and the OSCE and Kuchma signed. This is the view from Kiev.
1
"Putin has never acknowledged the obvious presence of Russian forces and weapons in eastern Ukraine." He has repeatedly lied about it, not just not acknowledged. The NYT insists upon reporting Putin's statements and agreements as if they can be believed. People like Merkel are not stupid. They know that the chances are slim to none that Putin can be trusted but when, inevitably, he breaks his word it will be easier to introduce tougher sanctions, including excluding Russia from the international payments system. Perhaps the next stage should be to seize all the condos that Russian oligarchs have recently purchased in NY?
3
Want to pressure Putin to be good? --start campaigning to boycott the 2018 World Cup in Russia. Get the Dutch on board and the Aussies (lives lost when commercial airliner was shot down over Ukraine) and add a credible US threat. The absence of the Dutch and US would be huge and might just pressure the Germans, French and other like-minded first tier clubs to join. Just word of the threatened boycott will be big news and doubtless will trickle down to the 80%+ supporting Putin's Ukraine adventurism.
This is the least mega-wealthy international soccer can do for world peace. They owe us. And who knows, perhaps the Germans will even value their soccer hegemony less than Russian oil?
Just beware and be aware of what happened after the Russians lulled everyone into participating in the Winter Olympics and followed with the Ukraine onslaught. So whatever is decided pre World Cup must be sustainable.
This is the least mega-wealthy international soccer can do for world peace. They owe us. And who knows, perhaps the Germans will even value their soccer hegemony less than Russian oil?
Just beware and be aware of what happened after the Russians lulled everyone into participating in the Winter Olympics and followed with the Ukraine onslaught. So whatever is decided pre World Cup must be sustainable.
1
“Putin’s war”? “Keep his feet to the fire”? “Not a coup”? Who do we think we’re kidding?
Neo’s foist sanctions, & shock & awe militarism as “democracy” building. Targeting perceived Putinism in eastern Ukr, neo’s claim that “the new Ukraine is a well-kept secret...Radical reforms have been hatched but not yet implemented”. While radical “reforms” are hatched in secret, fist fights are routine in Ukr’s lustrated Rada, and civilians are bombed. "Reform" by shock & awe paves a path for unending war. A Marshal Plan for Greece & other poorer EU countries would be a better investment in democracy.
Diplomat-historian G Kennan said it clearly(LA Times July, 1997):"Expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the post cold-war era."
Classic coup: “unanimous vote” by fewer than the constitutional minimum was held, & a Committee on Lustration formed to remove members of the former Rada majority who still dared to appear on the floor of the Rada. Then Chair of the Rada & acting Pres and PM, Turchynov, disavowed the decisions and called decisions of the Rada "illegal" and "a coup d'état."
N PETRO, prof of politics at URI & Fulbright scholar: a classical coup...There was an extraordinary session of Parliament, after—it was held after most members were told there would be no session and many had left town. And then, under the chairmanship of the radical party, Svoboda, this rump Parliament declared that the president had self-removed himself from the presidency.
Neo’s foist sanctions, & shock & awe militarism as “democracy” building. Targeting perceived Putinism in eastern Ukr, neo’s claim that “the new Ukraine is a well-kept secret...Radical reforms have been hatched but not yet implemented”. While radical “reforms” are hatched in secret, fist fights are routine in Ukr’s lustrated Rada, and civilians are bombed. "Reform" by shock & awe paves a path for unending war. A Marshal Plan for Greece & other poorer EU countries would be a better investment in democracy.
Diplomat-historian G Kennan said it clearly(LA Times July, 1997):"Expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the post cold-war era."
Classic coup: “unanimous vote” by fewer than the constitutional minimum was held, & a Committee on Lustration formed to remove members of the former Rada majority who still dared to appear on the floor of the Rada. Then Chair of the Rada & acting Pres and PM, Turchynov, disavowed the decisions and called decisions of the Rada "illegal" and "a coup d'état."
N PETRO, prof of politics at URI & Fulbright scholar: a classical coup...There was an extraordinary session of Parliament, after—it was held after most members were told there would be no session and many had left town. And then, under the chairmanship of the radical party, Svoboda, this rump Parliament declared that the president had self-removed himself from the presidency.
2
The Editorial Board seems to be suffering from amnesia. There have been several previous agreements that Russia has been a signatory to in regards to the Ukraine that it specifically has not honored. I leave it to its research assistants to list them. It has been irresponsible of the United States to continuously withhold the promise of heavy weapons to the Ukraine. Between making the promise and the actual delivery, winding through the corridors of the Capitol and the Pentagon, there would be sufficient time to determine whether Putin's bluff is exactly that. By leaving the promise off the table it allows Russia to push further without seeing any serious consequences. Economic sanctions doesn't deter the Russians the prospect of the steppes of the Ukraine littered with destroyed Russian tanks does.
3
I wonder what the NYT editorial board comment would be on Neville Chamberlains appeasement of Hitler. In the article you claim that Putin basically gave up nothing, and this is good deal when Putin is the aggressor in this whole mess. I am at a loss to understand your thought processes here.
4
I don't understand how you negotiate a cease-fire with someone that does not even admit he has anything to do with the shooting.
2
Putin has tried to remove himself from direct responsibility by calling the pro-Russian separatists autonomous soldiers who chose to fight for eastern Ukraine while on vacation. He says this with a smirk, as his popularity sky-rockets at home.
What matters to Putin? Ukraine must remain a wasteland, bankrupt, in complete disarray. Cease-fire, no cease fire, what matters is that Ukraine has no foundation, no stability. He will wait it out, provoke here and there, and inch by inch create a new normal in eastern Ukraine. The approach is the opposite if Crimea, but the result will be the same: part of Ukraine will become Russian soil. The question: What become of western Ukraine after that pro-longed land grab. Does Putin stop? My guess is that he keeps pressuring until he is forced to stop. He will look to all of Ukraine, make sure that it is in continued disarray, and inch by inch...
At some point the EU and The United States will have to directly help Poroshenko with military aid. That, or just let Putin roll over eastern Europe.
What matters to Putin? Ukraine must remain a wasteland, bankrupt, in complete disarray. Cease-fire, no cease fire, what matters is that Ukraine has no foundation, no stability. He will wait it out, provoke here and there, and inch by inch create a new normal in eastern Ukraine. The approach is the opposite if Crimea, but the result will be the same: part of Ukraine will become Russian soil. The question: What become of western Ukraine after that pro-longed land grab. Does Putin stop? My guess is that he keeps pressuring until he is forced to stop. He will look to all of Ukraine, make sure that it is in continued disarray, and inch by inch...
At some point the EU and The United States will have to directly help Poroshenko with military aid. That, or just let Putin roll over eastern Europe.
3
Putin's hollow victory about trying to subjugate Ukraine will definitely place him on the wrong side of history. He is a bully, and the Russians will suffer as a result. We have seen foolish self-aggrandizing 'pseudo-leaders' before, with awful results. What Putin needs is a "gorbachev moment', to realize that carnage can be avoided if imperialism is kept in check, his area of influence much more valuable if he can find reciprocal interests alive, and sovereignty made reciprocal (would Russia ever tolerate being invaded? Not even Napoleon nor Nazi Germany had a chance), in other words, do not do to your neighbor what you wouldn't want others do to you. Simple enough. And true.
1
I repeat again.
The problem of Ukraine in itself and in the authorities of Kiev.
Not in Russia and not in Putin.
You need to look deeper into the history of Ukraine.
This is mostly an artificial entity,
something similar happened in the United States.
When the individual lands in the United States to unite on the
the federal principles. Ukraine is not federal state, as you know.
In Ukraine lives Poles, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Lithuanians (mainly in Western Ukraine) and Russians in the Donbass.
Now take place the Russian's genocide in the Donbass. It's OK?
Do you approve this?
While there is no equal rights for all - the world will not.
And Russia is not to blame.
Do you not understand that?
For instance, If you come to the USA from Europe will have one
status, and from Asia or Africa, the other - this is normal?
P.S. Please do not write me nonsense in response ...
The problem of Ukraine in itself and in the authorities of Kiev.
Not in Russia and not in Putin.
You need to look deeper into the history of Ukraine.
This is mostly an artificial entity,
something similar happened in the United States.
When the individual lands in the United States to unite on the
the federal principles. Ukraine is not federal state, as you know.
In Ukraine lives Poles, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Lithuanians (mainly in Western Ukraine) and Russians in the Donbass.
Now take place the Russian's genocide in the Donbass. It's OK?
Do you approve this?
While there is no equal rights for all - the world will not.
And Russia is not to blame.
Do you not understand that?
For instance, If you come to the USA from Europe will have one
status, and from Asia or Africa, the other - this is normal?
P.S. Please do not write me nonsense in response ...
The plight of people living in eastern Ukraine is dreadful. The situation needs a Solomon.
1
I see the US and EU as carrying out a slow expansion of
NATO until it reached Russia's borders and Russia became alarmed. Putin may be a bully
at home but when we consider that he has the support of 85% of Russians and of Gorbachev,
it is clear that making Putin central is a semantic trick. It is Russians who are
defending themselves against Western encroachment.
There is only one bully in the picture and it is Poroshenko. People have short memories and forget that he used his air force to attack his own people, the rebels in east Ukraine. Of course Putin helped the rebels. They would have been sitting ducks without his help. And of course Putin is lying when he denies that he helped the rebels. There is no way they could defend themselves against Kiev without his help.
The only solution is autonomy for east Ukraine while
remaining a part of Ukraine, Putin has been proposing it and Poroshenko has been resisting it.
Putin has MINIMAL goals as is obvious (to any unbiased person) from his actions. Thee response to talk about Putin as Hitler or Putin the Czar is a distortion and a prelude to war.
NATO until it reached Russia's borders and Russia became alarmed. Putin may be a bully
at home but when we consider that he has the support of 85% of Russians and of Gorbachev,
it is clear that making Putin central is a semantic trick. It is Russians who are
defending themselves against Western encroachment.
There is only one bully in the picture and it is Poroshenko. People have short memories and forget that he used his air force to attack his own people, the rebels in east Ukraine. Of course Putin helped the rebels. They would have been sitting ducks without his help. And of course Putin is lying when he denies that he helped the rebels. There is no way they could defend themselves against Kiev without his help.
The only solution is autonomy for east Ukraine while
remaining a part of Ukraine, Putin has been proposing it and Poroshenko has been resisting it.
Putin has MINIMAL goals as is obvious (to any unbiased person) from his actions. Thee response to talk about Putin as Hitler or Putin the Czar is a distortion and a prelude to war.
3
We were not party to this agreement and we should mind our own business. Why is it this country feels and obligation to stick its nose in everything that goes on in this world. Is there nothing we will stay out of it. We are NOT a neutral party - we favor and support Kiev and Poroshenko - therefore we are not fit to be involved in this.
We view this leaders of LPR/DPR as thugs and terrorists - therefore every judgment we make will be in the favor of Kiev. Actually we are just looking for an excuse to send them lethal weapons.
Is there nothing in this world we rush to get involved in and spend taxpayer money on. This country is an embarrassment and is probably the most thoroughly hated country in the world. Believe me we have earned the hatred of the world.
We run around the world and try to impose our customs, our values, and our way of life on everyone. We hold ourselves up as an example to be emulated. We insist on being the world policeman even thought it bankrupts us -- we are involved in 3 wars now - isn't that enough. Let the EU have this problem and please MIND OUT OWN BUSINESS for a change.
We view this leaders of LPR/DPR as thugs and terrorists - therefore every judgment we make will be in the favor of Kiev. Actually we are just looking for an excuse to send them lethal weapons.
Is there nothing in this world we rush to get involved in and spend taxpayer money on. This country is an embarrassment and is probably the most thoroughly hated country in the world. Believe me we have earned the hatred of the world.
We run around the world and try to impose our customs, our values, and our way of life on everyone. We hold ourselves up as an example to be emulated. We insist on being the world policeman even thought it bankrupts us -- we are involved in 3 wars now - isn't that enough. Let the EU have this problem and please MIND OUT OWN BUSINESS for a change.
3
Why does Ukraine need a "respite from conflict" to start carrying out economic reforms? If this is truly a conflict over different visions of society there is nothing more pressing than reforms. A divided Ukraine will not be able to do it. Ukraine should consolidate its Western part and rid itself of the anchor in the East (hopefully through valid elections). If it can spring up economically, the East Ukraine and Russia itself will follow.
It sounds to me that the conflict is used by the Ukrainian oligarchy to play victimhood and avoid reforms. They should not be getting that pass.
It sounds to me that the conflict is used by the Ukrainian oligarchy to play victimhood and avoid reforms. They should not be getting that pass.
3
I know every reader spits on RT - but there is this interesting story in it which I believe to be TRUE,
'Ukraine ultranationalist leader rejects Minsk peace deal, reserves right 'to continue war'
"Ukraine’s Right Sector leader Dmitry Yarosh said his radical movement rejects the Minsk peace deal and that their paramilitary units in eastern Ukraine will continue “active fighting" according to their "own plans."
http://rt.com/news/232183-ukraine-yarosh-war-minsk/
It is also worth nothing that yesterday Yarosh, whose paymaster is Kolomoisky, took over 17 battalions of the regular army, He sure will restart the war - the rebels will have to fight back - and the NYT and the naïve US Congress will be Yarosh is right. We will let out selves be DUPED out of hatred for Russia.
'Ukraine ultranationalist leader rejects Minsk peace deal, reserves right 'to continue war'
"Ukraine’s Right Sector leader Dmitry Yarosh said his radical movement rejects the Minsk peace deal and that their paramilitary units in eastern Ukraine will continue “active fighting" according to their "own plans."
http://rt.com/news/232183-ukraine-yarosh-war-minsk/
It is also worth nothing that yesterday Yarosh, whose paymaster is Kolomoisky, took over 17 battalions of the regular army, He sure will restart the war - the rebels will have to fight back - and the NYT and the naïve US Congress will be Yarosh is right. We will let out selves be DUPED out of hatred for Russia.
1
Only the purposefully blind can believe that this is anything but "another cynical feint in his (Putin's) campaign to dismember Ukraine." The Ukrainians need to be given the means to defend themselves.
1
Nope, it's just one more step forward for Putin.
Paper doesn't stop tanks.
I can only hope that we send all the defensive weapons needed to the Ukraine in the lull between Mr. Putin's aggresions so that WE take advantage of the time -- for once.
Paper doesn't stop tanks.
I can only hope that we send all the defensive weapons needed to the Ukraine in the lull between Mr. Putin's aggresions so that WE take advantage of the time -- for once.
1
Watching the news conference where Merkel, Putin, Poroshenko and Hollande announced the cease fire was a heart breaker. Poronsheko with no choice but to accept the de-facto loss of a significant portion of his country and Putin barely able to contain his gloating, I was surprised he didn't take off his shirt and show off his muscles or pound his chest. The headline should have read: "just wait; there's more to come...".
2
History repeats itself over and over. Is this what Europe was like in the 1930's? Putin is following Hitlers playbook and of all people the Germans should see this.
1
There is a Greek proverb applicable to President Putin: take what you want and pay for it. Attacking Ukraine and even conquering it is possible. But is it worth it?
1
US has already passed the law giving itself permission to arm Ukraine. The US will be arming Ukraine. If last week's conversation was held in the weeks before the bill was signed in to law maybe it would have been a real conversation. Similarly, the US has already announced that it will be sending troops to Ukraine to train the Ukrainian National Guard (though they are going to Lviv, so probably the volunteer troops too) This is already decided and is going to take place next month. It will be interesting to see if it is presented as if something that events in March make inevitable. It's hard not to miss that spikes of violence and cease fire nicely match preplanned NATO meetings, DAVOs, etc. (The last cease fire also came within days of NATO meeting and granting themselves more money.)
Waiting to read NYTs mention the new Ukrainian government arresting anti-mobilization protestors and bloggers. If we could refocus a bit away from: PUTIN! we'd see there is a lot that is going awry with the new government of Ukraine.
Waiting to read NYTs mention the new Ukrainian government arresting anti-mobilization protestors and bloggers. If we could refocus a bit away from: PUTIN! we'd see there is a lot that is going awry with the new government of Ukraine.
1
The cease-fire will not hold: "the West" (US neoconservatives and Cold War retreads) wants all of Ukraine brought into its sphere, attempting to topple Putin and ultimately force regime change in Russia, and Putin must have a viable security buffer against Western aggression. Nor will Western (ie, American) escalation work, as Ukraines NAZI stormtroopers and hapless conscripts will never defeat the Russian-backed proxy fighters.
Russia has won this fight, and the US er "the West" must accept that there are limits to what aggression and encroachment any powerful nation will allow on its borders. The US-backed oligarchs in Kiev will have to accept a limited domain.
And, someday, the Times will actually have to publish the photos of Ukrainian soldiers and "volunteers" running around with SS and Swastika symbols on their helmets.
Russia has won this fight, and the US er "the West" must accept that there are limits to what aggression and encroachment any powerful nation will allow on its borders. The US-backed oligarchs in Kiev will have to accept a limited domain.
And, someday, the Times will actually have to publish the photos of Ukrainian soldiers and "volunteers" running around with SS and Swastika symbols on their helmets.
1
Putin's honoring his agreements is unlikely.
To keep him focussed -- if anything can -- why not freeze big Russian firms' and oligarchs' Swiss bank accounts?
Russians withstood the Leningrad Siege nearly three years (Sep 41 to Jan 44), but this time no Lend Lease can buttress such stubbornness. And major world opinion is against Russia now.
To keep him focussed -- if anything can -- why not freeze big Russian firms' and oligarchs' Swiss bank accounts?
Russians withstood the Leningrad Siege nearly three years (Sep 41 to Jan 44), but this time no Lend Lease can buttress such stubbornness. And major world opinion is against Russia now.
1
"What remains incontrovertible is that Ukraine is Mr. Putin’s war."
What a load of misinformed, imperialist lies. Mr. Putin had nothing to do with this mess. In fact I think he's shown considerable restraint.
The NYT has lost all credibility as legitimate news source.
What a load of misinformed, imperialist lies. Mr. Putin had nothing to do with this mess. In fact I think he's shown considerable restraint.
The NYT has lost all credibility as legitimate news source.
2
NY times: "Mr. Putin has been offered a far better deal than he deserves. Now it is imperative for the West to keep his feet to the fire."
... How quickly the things are changing. A year ago, the US administration had warned President Yanukovych of the slightest use of force in Ukraine. Now, when Poroshenko is ruling, there was killed thousands of people and millions fled from Ukraine to Russia, America is going to support a fratricidal war, supplying arms to the Ukrainian army. And Putin is to blame for everything! The cease-fire has not yet come, but the European Union has imposed new sanctions, Mrs. Merkel warned Putin, and the US State Department warned Putin. And everyone knows in advance, that the truce would rather not take place, than take place.
Your sanctions and other measures only joined the Russian people around the President (85% support), who is acting against the capitalist community, which most of us consider as an international Mafia. The more sanctions, the harder is this belief.
... How quickly the things are changing. A year ago, the US administration had warned President Yanukovych of the slightest use of force in Ukraine. Now, when Poroshenko is ruling, there was killed thousands of people and millions fled from Ukraine to Russia, America is going to support a fratricidal war, supplying arms to the Ukrainian army. And Putin is to blame for everything! The cease-fire has not yet come, but the European Union has imposed new sanctions, Mrs. Merkel warned Putin, and the US State Department warned Putin. And everyone knows in advance, that the truce would rather not take place, than take place.
Your sanctions and other measures only joined the Russian people around the President (85% support), who is acting against the capitalist community, which most of us consider as an international Mafia. The more sanctions, the harder is this belief.
1
Rather than Putin being increasingly ostracized the USs mindless intervention is coming to out right rejection by Germany and France. This war was started in the west and had no chance of success. Ukraine's increasing economic troubles has placed Porochenko in the obvious position of relenting.
8
Fools, that is the best way to describe the West's action. It follows a 'peace in our time', maybe for 48 hours. Putin knows the West will 'blink', this guy is well skilled in geo politics. How stupid can we be? Only Putin knows.
8
I do not think that the Ukrainian government really ready to accept the terms of the deal. I assume that government forces used this truce in order to get out of the mousetrap in Deboltsovo, regroup and to hit again.
7
Oh yes, because Russia will uphold its part of the bargain, just like they attacked Donetsk Airport during the supposed first cease fire. The double speak and disinformation coming form Russia (and Russians) is mind-boggling.
1
no,, but those rebels are.
The idea of Putin attacking Poland or Lithuania or even Kiev itself is nonsense. Putin may or may not be a bully, let us say he is, but he is not going to put his hand in the fire which will happen if he attacks any NATO country.
But what about Poroshenko? He seems rash. He certainly would be willing to put Obama's or Merkel's hand in the fire if he is allowed to.
It is a pity that the NY Times is refusing to recognize how aggressive Poroshenko has been in dealing with the rebels. "Accommodate the legitimate interests of the other" is the way, and not war. The fighting started because Poroshenlo decided to use force to put down the rebels (he called them bandits) in east Ukraine.
The West should tell him to calm down before he drags the rest of us into world war.
But what about Poroshenko? He seems rash. He certainly would be willing to put Obama's or Merkel's hand in the fire if he is allowed to.
It is a pity that the NY Times is refusing to recognize how aggressive Poroshenko has been in dealing with the rebels. "Accommodate the legitimate interests of the other" is the way, and not war. The fighting started because Poroshenlo decided to use force to put down the rebels (he called them bandits) in east Ukraine.
The West should tell him to calm down before he drags the rest of us into world war.
20
I wish like you we could also look at putin and see a rational, cautious, humane, predicable leader, one who is neither erratic nor paranoid, as you do R36, and make the confident predictions you make. Alas, such confidence as yours can be based on nothing but wishful thinking, weakness and a willful blindness. Actually, Mr Putin has staged a provocation against a NATO member already, when he ordered the kidnap[ping of an Estonian border official, whom he still has not released. In the face of your, and the West's manifest weakness, why should Putin think he will be stopped? Your decidedly pro-Russian comments do not persuade at all.
1
Oh well, but we have a precedent. Assad is bombing his rebels too, right?
Oh wait...
Oh wait...
1
If you believe that the Ukrainian separatists are merely proxies for Russia, than you must admit that Poroshenko's government is a proxy for the EU and NATO.
Without three months of not-so-peaceful demonstrations which the EU and US supported, and the ouster of Yanukovych, there would be no civil war in Ukraine.
By ignoring democratic elections and driving the politically divided country into armed camps, they have lost Crimea and will eventually see an Eastern Ukraine with greater autonomy. For better or for worse, the battle is over and the Ukrainians have no one to blame but themselves.
Without three months of not-so-peaceful demonstrations which the EU and US supported, and the ouster of Yanukovych, there would be no civil war in Ukraine.
By ignoring democratic elections and driving the politically divided country into armed camps, they have lost Crimea and will eventually see an Eastern Ukraine with greater autonomy. For better or for worse, the battle is over and the Ukrainians have no one to blame but themselves.
22
Poroshenko's government is a proxy for the Ukrainian people. No one else.
"No one to blame but themselves"! Don't you think that Putin had a little bit to do with it? The FSB's disinformation program is obviously in full swing.
1
Similarly without the Russian propaganda machine and the Russian invasion of Crimea and Donetsk, there would be no civil war. This is like saying that had Chileans not elected Allende, there would be no Pinochet. That argument sounds very cynical.
1
You write that it would be an "irresponsible and dangerous move in the current situation" to provide defensive weapons to Ukraine. Unlike the hundreds of tanks and rocket launchers that Russia has sent into Ukraine -- including 50 more tanks while negotiations were underway in Minsk -- the defensive weapons proposed by Congress are just that: the defenses like shoulder fired anti-tank rockets that would slow a Russian advance but wouldn't facilitate recovery of lost territory.
When Russian invaded and annexed Crimea, Ukraine was so desperate for peace that it walked away without firing a shot. Russia responded by invading Donetsk and Luhansk. The only way this cease fire can hold is if Ukraine as at least a basic deterrent against further Russian aggression. Providing Ukraine with that deterrent isn't an "irresponsible and dangerous move" -- it is a necessary one to preserve the peace and stop Russia before it moves into the Baltics and sparks a more direct confrontation with NATO.
When Russian invaded and annexed Crimea, Ukraine was so desperate for peace that it walked away without firing a shot. Russia responded by invading Donetsk and Luhansk. The only way this cease fire can hold is if Ukraine as at least a basic deterrent against further Russian aggression. Providing Ukraine with that deterrent isn't an "irresponsible and dangerous move" -- it is a necessary one to preserve the peace and stop Russia before it moves into the Baltics and sparks a more direct confrontation with NATO.
28
Russia was already in the Crimea. They did not have t invade. Do you understand how closely linked Russia is to parts of the Ukraine?
1
Merkel, Hollande, Obama have already accepted the fact that NATO will not be able to stop Putin if Putin decides to make a quick dash to Riga, Latvia with his tanks. NATO's so called "rapid reaction force" will still be in its barracks putting on their underpants when the Red Army arrives in downtown Riga. Without the Brits and Amis, there is no NATO army. Putin just doesn't care because he knows full well nobody is going to start WW3 over the Baltics, Poland and Ukraine. Obama has probably told him as much!
2
I completely agree. We supply arms to Saudi Arabia and Egypt, two countries that gravely mistreat their people and are not even close to real democracies. Ukraine is more (if not an ideal) democracy and also an ally of the US. Why in the world would we provide arms to the likes of Saudi Arabia and Egypt, but not Ukraine?
Both France and Germany (along with the 3 other UN Security Council members, US, China and Putinstan) are among the largest arms exporters. Are you telling me that the countries that France, Germany and US sell arms to are ALL more deserving than Ukraine?
Both France and Germany (along with the 3 other UN Security Council members, US, China and Putinstan) are among the largest arms exporters. Are you telling me that the countries that France, Germany and US sell arms to are ALL more deserving than Ukraine?
1
Instead of sanction, just sent in more CIA agents and Blackwater/Academi mercs. The ill-trained and ill-equiped Ukranian don't stand a chance against Spetsnaz so there is no point asking the Ukranian to fight this war for us.
1
So you do think the Ukrainians are fighting this war for "US?"
Speaking of this, CNN made an interesting mistake the other day, calling the Ukrainian troops "pro-US":
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-balan/2015/02/10/cnn-apologizes-mis...
Speaking of this, CNN made an interesting mistake the other day, calling the Ukrainian troops "pro-US":
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-balan/2015/02/10/cnn-apologizes-mis...
1
Colonel Girkin (aka Strelkov) after successfully leading the seizure of Crimea was sent to destabilize Ukraine to create a cause to which Russian led forces could respond. He complained in an interview in Russian media that despite repeated provocations the people of Ukraine did not want to fight until he, Strelkov, made war innevitable. The Ukrainian army was riddled with Russian agents. In the initial stages of the conflict there was ambush after ambush and the Russian-led forces looked like they might reach deep into Ukraine. However, President Poroshenko was elected and gradually the agents have been weeded out and the Ukrainian troops have performed with high distinction on many occassions. Given more precision weapons the civilian casulties will drop as the Russian-led tactics of placing mortar adjoining public housing to cause maximum civilian casulties lose effectiveness.
1
"What remains incontrovertible is that Ukraine is Mr. Putin's war." That sentence will go down as among the most disgraceful in NYT's history. So cocksure, so one-sided, so obsessed with the need to demonize Putin.
There was a coup--or does NYT deny it? There are significant neo-Nazi elements in the Kiev government and as coup leaders--or does NYT deny it? There is high probability of moving NATO forces to Russia's borders, an initiating cause of the crisis--or does NYT deny it?
Separatists? Had Kiev provided a federalist structure, one that safeguarded Russian-language rights, would separation been thought of? And why is it always Putin the presumed Devil the presumed reincarnation of Stalin who is at fault? Is US-EU-NATO-IMF collusion not involved?
The Times disgraces itself as a propaganda rag for its treatment of the crisis.
There was a coup--or does NYT deny it? There are significant neo-Nazi elements in the Kiev government and as coup leaders--or does NYT deny it? There is high probability of moving NATO forces to Russia's borders, an initiating cause of the crisis--or does NYT deny it?
Separatists? Had Kiev provided a federalist structure, one that safeguarded Russian-language rights, would separation been thought of? And why is it always Putin the presumed Devil the presumed reincarnation of Stalin who is at fault? Is US-EU-NATO-IMF collusion not involved?
The Times disgraces itself as a propaganda rag for its treatment of the crisis.
24
Whoa... talk about propaganda... put down Putin's talking points for a moment. Time for some tough love. Putin is lying to you. The sooner you learn that, the sooner you can move on.
1
This was Mr. Putin's war. He started it by invading Crimea and then continued it by starting the rebellion on the Donbass. The initial protesters were reinforced by Russians who were bused in. The initial leaders were Russian and the rebellion survives because of Russian support. The disgrace is those who would run rhetorical interference for Putin's aggression.
This was not a coup. This was a popular uprising that started when Yanukovich intiated the use of deadly force against the Maidan and ended when Yanukovich's allies ceased backing him and he fled. There are no significant "neo-Nazi" elements in the government. Svoboda/Right Sektor have no presence in the cabinet only a sliver in the Rada.
Having NATO forces to protect its eastern members if a prudent course, and a response to the provocations by Russia in Ukraine.
"would separation been thought of? "
Yes, Russia wants to create a frozen conflict to act as a permanent lever over Ukraine.
The fact that a rant against this editorial has to be as fact-free as your speaks volumes as to its utility.
This was not a coup. This was a popular uprising that started when Yanukovich intiated the use of deadly force against the Maidan and ended when Yanukovich's allies ceased backing him and he fled. There are no significant "neo-Nazi" elements in the government. Svoboda/Right Sektor have no presence in the cabinet only a sliver in the Rada.
Having NATO forces to protect its eastern members if a prudent course, and a response to the provocations by Russia in Ukraine.
"would separation been thought of? "
Yes, Russia wants to create a frozen conflict to act as a permanent lever over Ukraine.
The fact that a rant against this editorial has to be as fact-free as your speaks volumes as to its utility.
1
Putin is the devil- he made statements that Ukraine doesn't exist, shouldn't have existed, Poland should carve it up with Russia, that the "New Russia" should extend all the way to the Romanian border and Crimea- well he got Crimea.... stop pushing your propaganda please.
1
Russia had no more right to invade Ukraine because it did not like their policies than the U.S. would if we disapproved of the Alterta Tar Sands. France and Germany are helping Russia. The irony. Still a country of only 142 million people cannot dictate to the world, and their economy is collapsing.
8
the ediorial states ".........growing clamor in the United States Congress to send lethal arms to Ukraine. That would be an irresponsible and dangerous move in the current situation, but it added urgency to the Europeans’ mission."
..maybe it added a little urgency to Mr. Putin's mission???????
.....most of us know the only way to cower a schoolyard bully is to punch him/her in the nose.....
I guess the NY Tmes editorial board went to schools that did not have schoolyards.
EJB
..maybe it added a little urgency to Mr. Putin's mission???????
.....most of us know the only way to cower a schoolyard bully is to punch him/her in the nose.....
I guess the NY Tmes editorial board went to schools that did not have schoolyards.
EJB
11
Do you really think that Six Gun politics is the way to deal with Russia ? Us Europeans would be very grateful if America would stop behaving as if it owned our countries and let us sort out our own political future. Sooner or later US involvement in all sorts of dubious meddling in sovereign states is bound to be revealed by your own media and I don't mean Putin's propaganda. The days of McCarthy and opposing the USSR at all costs are over. Real Europe is not afraid of Russia and nor should the US be trying to force the terms of a peace agenda. We will not give in to Putin but nor will we cede sovereignty to America.
2
Let's put all of this in the context of the Cuban Missile Crisis. There, the Soviets tried to position nuclear weapons 90 miles from the US. Here, NATO wants to position nuclear weapons within 90 miles of Russia. Kennedy got Soviets to back down. Putin is trying hard to get NATO to back down. Kennedy would have done the same thing were he a Russian leader today.
2
"[T]here should be no easing of sanctions until he demonstrates a willingness to live by the agreements reached in Minsk."
My, how far we've come from insisting that sanctions remain in place for as long as Russia continues to illegally occupy Crimea. I wonder where the goalposts will turn up next.
My, how far we've come from insisting that sanctions remain in place for as long as Russia continues to illegally occupy Crimea. I wonder where the goalposts will turn up next.
8
Putin will have Marienpol in his hands before or after the cease fire. The only thing Putin understands is brute force. Unfortunately the US is completely preoccupied with ISIS and Afghanistan thanks to George W., Cheney and Rumsfeld and their sycophants. If Jeb Bush gets elected we will be surely bombing Iran's nuclear enrichment sites.
4
The cold reality is that Ukraine is already dismembered, not totally perhaps, but it has lost Crimea to annexation and for all practical purposes the Donbass region to Russian aggression. Both of these territories are critical to Ukraine's survival as a viable state.
The one compelling reason for withholding lethal weaponry to Ukraine is to protect the lives and property of innocent civilians caught in the crosshairs of an egomaniacal fascist. There is no snappy regarder to such an argument -- for the moment.
That said, those who advanced the Sudetenland analogy months ago are now proving prescient. Extending this analogy forward would forecast the complete dismemberment of Ukraine at the hands of an unchecked, revanchist Russia. Europe and NATO must grow spines and prevent this from happening, unless they also wish to lose the Baltics, Poland, Georgia, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Moldova.
It's Europe's back yard. The Eastern frontier nations that joined NATO and the EU did so recognizing Russia's historical nature and because they chose to join these international bodies as sovereign states. Ukraine should be next in line for membership.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
The one compelling reason for withholding lethal weaponry to Ukraine is to protect the lives and property of innocent civilians caught in the crosshairs of an egomaniacal fascist. There is no snappy regarder to such an argument -- for the moment.
That said, those who advanced the Sudetenland analogy months ago are now proving prescient. Extending this analogy forward would forecast the complete dismemberment of Ukraine at the hands of an unchecked, revanchist Russia. Europe and NATO must grow spines and prevent this from happening, unless they also wish to lose the Baltics, Poland, Georgia, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Moldova.
It's Europe's back yard. The Eastern frontier nations that joined NATO and the EU did so recognizing Russia's historical nature and because they chose to join these international bodies as sovereign states. Ukraine should be next in line for membership.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
6
Another one sided article by the Times as if a cease fire depends only on one side. In case you don't know or know but wont write, the Kiev regime did not respect the first Minsk agreement. They are attacking and killing civilians. Their neo-Nazi brigades are ruthless. But no one talks about pressuring them in backing off and respecting any agreement whatsoever. Its all Putin's fault. Who in the white house is asking you to write this way?
18
You mean the rebels and Russia did respect it and now the Kremlin is already backing away from it- read it yourself.. more Kremlin based lies.
1
More sanctions OK on Russia, not OK on Iran?
What's wrong with burying them both in sanctions?
What's wrong with burying them both in sanctions?
3
Without deterrence and consequences, Putin's relentless arming of his proxies will not stop. We need to arm the elected government of Ukraine. NATO needs to stand strong with democracy and human rights.
7
@Joe Yohka. Do you seriously believe that the US doesn't have proxy players in this conflict ? America is stable enough to withstand the scandal of exposing its meddling and putting a stop to it. Russia cannot survive the truth of it's involvement in a venture that has cost the lives of Russian soldiers and thousands of civilians.
What difference 80 years makes, Germany is giving away the Ukraine rather than taking it.
6
Callinn this Mr Putin's war distorts reality. He did not look for this war but he had a legitimate govenment on his border overthrown by thugs financed by our neo-con organizations. Anybody who can think knew how he had to react to those events.
We keep saying the obvious presence of Soviet troops but never show any proff of it. We readily accept anything Poroshenko says and that puts him in the positionf of being able to lead us by the nose. Poroshenko has never shown himself to be a trustworthy ally. He thought hw was going to roll over Eastern Ukraine but, surprise, war isn't a neat package you can predict.
Poroshenko is fighting a proxy war for us in an effort to include Ukraine in NATO. Anyone who believes Putin can let him do it isn't dealing with reality.
We keep saying the obvious presence of Soviet troops but never show any proff of it. We readily accept anything Poroshenko says and that puts him in the positionf of being able to lead us by the nose. Poroshenko has never shown himself to be a trustworthy ally. He thought hw was going to roll over Eastern Ukraine but, surprise, war isn't a neat package you can predict.
Poroshenko is fighting a proxy war for us in an effort to include Ukraine in NATO. Anyone who believes Putin can let him do it isn't dealing with reality.
22
Borrowing from Steven Tyler, "Dream On"!
2
The obsessive dislike for Mr. Putin by the NYT is in direct proportion to its frustration with the failure of the time-tested cudgels of sanctions and threats of war to pressure Mr. Putin to accede to US dictates. Russia is the only nation that has strategic parity with the US. Consequently, it must be constantly vilified and undermined, since it cannot be directly attacked. Ms. Nuland's famous epithet about the EU also applies to the rest of the world, and for the NYT is particularly applicable to Putin himself!
19
Yes Russia, because of its xenophobia, is fearful of western encroachment. But focusing on Russia's phobia negates the fact that Ukraine was an historical entity predating Muscovite Rus. Hundreds of years of Russian invasion and subjugation of the Ukrainian people have lead to a revision of Ukraine’s history clouding historical facts with Russian historical fiction: i.e. Ukraine was is and will always be Russian. The current crisis is a war not with Russian backed terrorists but with Russia. Ukraine’s effort to look west is a natural proclivity to wrest its cultural, political and national identity away from their Russian oppressors. Putin’s involvement in Ukraine providing aide, military personnel and hardware to the eastern Russian terrorists has been rewarded, supported and acknowledged by the EU in the form of MinskII! The EU got its fragile peace without addressing the true issues between Russia and Ukraine; Putin got a weakened and fractured Ukraine by altering its borders; and Porosenko got the sympathy of the West but not the aide he needed.
12
Indeed, perhaps it makes more sense to say that Russia should be part of Ukraine, not the other way around. After Kyiv was the center of Rus', and its land included Novgorod, Moscow, and a number of other cities in present day Russia.
1
Muscovite Rus was part of Kievan Rus not Ukraine. The Kievan Rus was completely destroyed by Mongols, Moscow was burned my them as well but survived and raised to Muscovite Tsardom due to its remote location and bad climate. Now, back to Kiev. When Mongols devastated and destroyed Kiev and Kievan Rus, the principalities of Halych and Volodymyr-Volynskyi took over and established Galicia-Volhynia, not Ukraine yet and no Muscovite Rus either.. In fact Moscow was busy building its own state and protecting it from Mongols, Polish, Tatars. The Galicia-Volhynia didn't survived long and was taken by the Poland and Lithuania including Kiev, no Ukraine and no Muscovite Rus in picture and later all this territory was included into Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth. During this time, the polonization of the people become common practice, they were forced to convert to Catholicism, etc.. not all of them wanted and they moved to the part of Ukraine called Zaporozhe where they were protected by Zaporozhian Cossacks who were devoutly Orthodox. In the meantime in Crimea, the Crimean Khanate was biting south Slavs annually by taking people and goods, it even managed to capture Moscow once. I can go on and on and on.. but the fact is - Ukraine as it is now is a creation of Soviet Union and Stalin more than Russian Federation and Putin, and it had 22 years build its own identity and state but instead converted herself into scandalous and irresponsible state with huge but groundless ambitions.
I am not a hawk, but the NY Times got it wrong on this along with the EU appeasers. Ukraine needs to be able to defend itself from the monsterous aggression inflicted on it by Putins and his lackeys. Putin will continue his feint and attack as long as the US ans EU allow. He believes in his twisted little mind that he has a right to Ukraine and has no qualms about murdering and displacing Ukrainians to prove his point. Ukraine should be supported, including with defensive weapons to shake off this beast. Putin and his mafia government should be made to feel as much pain as possible, that is s all they understand.
17
"Mr. Putin has been offered a far better deal than he deserves." That may or may not be true, and is in any case subject to personal opinion. Important for now is that the killing is stopped and that the territorial integrity of the Ukraine is maintained. Sending weapons into the Ukraine is one of the most stupid ideas, one can think of. Ukraine is an industrialised country and produces it's own set of weapons and ammunition (if absolutely necessary, one could help them with raw material or support in their production). Western arms would not change the military situation even a little bit, but would show that the West wants the issue to be fought out militarily, and that would give Russia the pretext to pour weapons into the "insurgents" indefinitely - which it could do in any case at a higher rate, than the West could pour them into Ukraine. Sending weapons would mean particularly for the USA either to go all the way through to the end: weapon supply - logistic support - advisers - troops (=boots on the ground) - nuclear face-off or to chicken out somewhere along the line. Don't expect Mr. Putin to wince back at any point before the nuclear face-off! He does not have a public opinion or a free elected parliament to care off. Guys, are you willing to go all that way? Do you consider that a desireable way? If not, better don't start it, because if you have to chicken out, Mr. Putin will go megalomaniac, and we will have cold war style tension in the world for decades.
1
I think you have not been paying attention. The killing has not been stopped!
1
An accompanying story in the Times today includes the following quote: "The Obama administration, which has indicated that it would send antitank missiles, surveillance drones and other far more serious battlefield weapons to Ukraine, said those plans would be shelved, for now, but would be revived if the parties failed to honor the agreement."
Anti-tank missiles and surveillance drones are, by definition, primarily defensive weapons, that would enable Ukrainian soldiers to better protect themselves, and to defend their land from the vicious aggression of Kremlin-backed militants and invading Russian army units. At the very least, such defensive weaponry and equipment should still be sent by the US to Ukraine.
The Times editorial board chooses to characterize all of these weapons as "lethal," in order to justify its position that sanctions alone will tame Putin's bloodlust and alter his imperial mindset.
Anti-tank missiles and surveillance drones are, by definition, primarily defensive weapons, that would enable Ukrainian soldiers to better protect themselves, and to defend their land from the vicious aggression of Kremlin-backed militants and invading Russian army units. At the very least, such defensive weaponry and equipment should still be sent by the US to Ukraine.
The Times editorial board chooses to characterize all of these weapons as "lethal," in order to justify its position that sanctions alone will tame Putin's bloodlust and alter his imperial mindset.
8
Russia should be unyielding in its determination to prevent the constant bombardment (even with American cluster bombs) and eventual massacre of the ethnic Russian populations in East Ukraine.
Once that goal is secured, Putin should insist on significant autonomy for the region. The latter will preserve the distinct cultural rights of the population — including the right to use their native language.
But, far more importantly, an autonomous East Ukraine will prevent the devastating European war the Obama Administration seems so keen to precipitate.
Once that goal is secured, Putin should insist on significant autonomy for the region. The latter will preserve the distinct cultural rights of the population — including the right to use their native language.
But, far more importantly, an autonomous East Ukraine will prevent the devastating European war the Obama Administration seems so keen to precipitate.
4
It is clear that Putin is irrational; he cannot understand and comprehend higher abstractions of reason. To him force, the threat or the use of is a language he is fully immersed and familiar. To have diplomacy both must have certain parameters to discuss issues and problems and have an adroitness to pursue rational discussion. But if your counter part is of a late 19th, early 20th century rationale, diplomacy is pointless and caters to Putin's belief: the west is too weak and indecisive to meet and confront Russia militarily. As Minsk 2 takes hold, the EU and the US must have frank discussions on how to better prepare Ukraine for the next Russian incursion...In the beginning I believed diplomacy would prevail and Putin would back off. But economic sanctions and the corrosion of Russia’s economy only has solidified both Putin's and Russia's resolve. Perhaps, it is time to consider more drastic measures and speak a language that Putin understands!
3
I see here the hoards of readers who have been taken in by the US narrative in this struggle. They like to think this is about Putin, when in actuality, any other Russian leader would have responded to the US and EU challenge in Ukraine without any noticeable differences from what Putin has done. This is a geopolitical struggle on the Russian frontier. Have our dear readers forgotten about Great Power Politics and vital strategic interests? The US knew damn well that the little Nuland/Pyatt coup would cause this conflagration, and that Europe would have to clean the mess up. For those who want to continue the moronic American led rant about Putin, I recommend reading the comments of John Mearsheimer and Stephen Cohen on this crisis. Ukraine will never be NATO, for it will have to be a neutral state, a buffer state if you will, which does business with both east and west. Let us remember that Russia's $15 billion had no strings attached, security or otherwise. Read the EU deal, and one can sniff out the foul aroma of USA fingerprints on the documents.
9
I am in Germany this week and there is a growing sentiment and the US (and the UK) are part of the problem, not solution. Seems the Germans are getting tired of all this endless talk of punishing Russia without looking at the other side of the problem (of using heavy artillery against populated areas in rebel held provinces).
Somebody today made a passing reference that BBC World recently had broadcast that some of the killings in the Maidan probably was the handiwork of the current Kiev leaders. I did not believe him, but indeed BBC had said something to that effect it seems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31435719
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31359021
Somebody today made a passing reference that BBC World recently had broadcast that some of the killings in the Maidan probably was the handiwork of the current Kiev leaders. I did not believe him, but indeed BBC had said something to that effect it seems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31435719
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31359021
5
I think there is a solution, of which I am a strong proponent. The US should withdraw from NATO, and form defensive alliances with only a few --very few-- worthwhile and reliable countries in Europe (the UK, Poland, the Baltic States). Let the Germans and French , the Italians, and the Greeks worry about Europe for a change without the US umbrella. For the US, Old Europe is part of the problem. They make messes under the protection of the US. I suggest a proper solution. And this time, the US lets them all kill each other in the next European war!
I think the board is missing something here. They/we have no standing here. This deal was brokered by Europeans soley. The Obama administration has done nothing but posture on this thing since it started. As for getting tough. How do you get tough with a man that saved your bacon in Syria, endured your churlish Olympic snub stoicly continues to let you use air space for your campaign in Afghanistan and has not halted a joint space program. To be sure Putin is not a "good" man he is however successful in achieving his goals which are roundly supported by his nations citizenry- keeping a real NATO presence off his borders.
Our president is not a good man either and we now face the possiblility of a nuclear arms race in the Middle East and the reality of permanent Terror state which grows faster than our ability to bomb it.
As for our lack of involvement the last time something of this magnitude was left to the Europeans was post Yugoslavia and the carnage lasted years. The deal here derided has real possibilities and it certainly seems all sides want some kind of resolution sooner rather than later.
The question then is which country has the better bad guy and gets a better deal?
Our president is not a good man either and we now face the possiblility of a nuclear arms race in the Middle East and the reality of permanent Terror state which grows faster than our ability to bomb it.
As for our lack of involvement the last time something of this magnitude was left to the Europeans was post Yugoslavia and the carnage lasted years. The deal here derided has real possibilities and it certainly seems all sides want some kind of resolution sooner rather than later.
The question then is which country has the better bad guy and gets a better deal?
2
"The US has no standing here"? I dont think it is the Board that missed something! The US (and Russia) signed an agreement guaranteeing the territorial sovereignty and integrity of Ukraine,including the Crimea region. Dont use big words like "standing" unless you first look them up in the Websters dictionary.
1
As reported, Putin never acknowledged the presence of Russian military forces and equipment fueling the separatists - an effort to sustain the lie that Moscow has no involvement with them. But then Putin ends up representing the "separatists," signing an agreement "on their behalf," and assuring the West that he'll order them to pull back. How can he do all of this if the Kremlin has had nothing to do with the separatists? By his own actions, Putin acknowledges that he controls the separatists. They're his - the war is his. I regret, also, that the fate of Crimea has become a fait accompli - a "goner" down the Russian sink-hole.
5
I wonder if the editorial board also believes it is irresponsible and dangerous for the US to sell Latvia, Finland, Poland, or the Netherlands for that matter arms to defend themselves from the much larger military and nuclear power Russia. This idea that we should not arm Ukraine makes sense only the more times its repeated and the less often people actually spend a minute thinking it through. Fact is that Russia has only attacked the weak and less armed and will continue that policy. Ukraine is not Iraq, Pakistan or any of the other places that we have spent billions on giving weapons to them; Ukraine's army has actually stopped the Russian special forces and rebels (yes a few square kilometers were lost in the last few weeks but the rebels control half what they did in the Spring). Ukraine does not need much, just the anti-tank and anti-artillery systems to ensure Russia knows that it will pay a steep price to press their offensive farther.
7
Call me an appeaser but I'm not into tough talk about Putin. It massages the ego of Americans. But compared to all but Gorbachev, Putin is pretty moderate. If we sanction him into a corner, hold his feet to the fire on Ukraine, arm our friends in Kiev, and expose Putin as an emperor with no clothes, dollars to donuts we get someone worse. It surely will not be Medvedev. Ukraine is a pawn in a US-Russian conflict and winning the battle could mean losing the war.
3
Once again, our dishonorable friends and allies have signed a dishonorable peace that only rewards the aggressor. Obama should denounce it for what it is, and not state, as he essentially has, that he's going to ease sanctions. For what? And Russia still has the annexation of Crimea. Instead, we regrettably have such a weak, indecisive, feeble, uncourageous president (I voted for him twice) that the dangers are compounded. Leadership is required; instead we have a vacuum occupying the White House.
3
The deal in Minsk-1 was that Donbass would get autonomy as part of Ukraine. That logically meant that then the control of the borders would revert to Kiev.
Kiev reneged on the autonomy part and then claimed that the border control part gave it the right to encircle and strangle the rebel controlled Donbass. That was not the intent of Minsk-1 and predictably it was corrected in Minsk-2.
On the military side this article seems confused. There is no large scale rebel attack on Mariupol. And I have seen more reports that Kiev is trying to break the siege of their troops in Debaltsevo (who they still claim aren't completely surrounded) than of rebel forces trying to crush the kettle.
The Minsk agreement leaves a lot of points open. They will need to be settled in negotiations between rebels and Kiev.
Kiev reneged on the autonomy part and then claimed that the border control part gave it the right to encircle and strangle the rebel controlled Donbass. That was not the intent of Minsk-1 and predictably it was corrected in Minsk-2.
On the military side this article seems confused. There is no large scale rebel attack on Mariupol. And I have seen more reports that Kiev is trying to break the siege of their troops in Debaltsevo (who they still claim aren't completely surrounded) than of rebel forces trying to crush the kettle.
The Minsk agreement leaves a lot of points open. They will need to be settled in negotiations between rebels and Kiev.
5
1. Ukrainian Russians are winning on the ground, and would/will continue to do so. It is Kiev that is warring a losing cause.
2. It is Kiev's use of heavy weapons on the civilian intrastructure and people that is the most heinous part of this war. That should stop with or without a cease fire.
3. Kiev is trading a stoppage of shelling of civilians for money from the IMF. The West should be ashamed.
4. The Russians have been remarkably reserved, they could be giving fighter jet cover for instance, or could have run tanks any distance West. They have not done either.
5. What remains incontrovertible is that the war in the Donbass is Kiev's War. Poroshenko has shelled his own civilian population, they are fighting back.
6. When you have no path to military victory, you yap about sanctions. The Russians have show courage in the hardship of having accepted them. Any threats of new weapons can be matched by the Russians and should be.
2. It is Kiev's use of heavy weapons on the civilian intrastructure and people that is the most heinous part of this war. That should stop with or without a cease fire.
3. Kiev is trading a stoppage of shelling of civilians for money from the IMF. The West should be ashamed.
4. The Russians have been remarkably reserved, they could be giving fighter jet cover for instance, or could have run tanks any distance West. They have not done either.
5. What remains incontrovertible is that the war in the Donbass is Kiev's War. Poroshenko has shelled his own civilian population, they are fighting back.
6. When you have no path to military victory, you yap about sanctions. The Russians have show courage in the hardship of having accepted them. Any threats of new weapons can be matched by the Russians and should be.
18
Those sitting to the west of the old Iron Curtain nervously fear upsetting the Russian bear which just ate the Crimea and is now chewing on a tasty leg of Ukraine. Those sitting to the east of the old Iron Curtin just short of the Russian border watch nervously as Mr. Putin thumbs through an old Soviet cookbook for interesting Slavic stew recipes - his only concern being that his indigestion is not further aggravated by meaningful sanctions which target the Russian economy as a whole or otherwise freeze its access to the western financial system.
4
All of this tough talk from the west is done with a very poor understanding of the long history of the cold war and its aftermath. Americans have to understand that an escalation from the US will be seen in the same way that our govt looked upon the Cuban missile crisis. This is dangerous territory, and anyone advocating additional weapons has not thought through the unknown that will be: What will be the next escalation?. We know that Russia will react with force for the simple reason that it is on its border. Those supporting the introduction of US weapons betray a disconnect in their reasoning, and offer no serious predictions as to how the conflagration will escalate.
5
Not to worry. There will be plenty of violations of the cease fire and they will be all blamed on Russia even if otherwise. So sanctions will be firmly kept in place.
3
How many times do the Russians and the Iranians get to play this game? Everyone, presumably including the rather craven coterie currently in charge of the western democracies, knows that this sort of deal simply buys time to consolidate gains and that Putin will violate it when he decides it's in his interest to do so. Maybe he'll simply take more of the Ukraine, or maybe he'll finally decide to see what happens when he hits a real trip wire and threaten the Baltic states.
European states were rendered largely defenseless by their self-inflicted catastrophes of the 20th century and it's been up to the US to lead and keep things in relative order since 1945. Unfortunately, the President has a world view that is uniquely un-American for a holder of that office and the bad guys have finally realized it. Do you think it's any coincidence that so much seems to be going so wrong internationally at this point in his Administration? I'm afraid that the world is going to get very ugly during the next two years as the bad guys try to get it while the getting is good.
American leadership matters and the White House is no place for self-delusion, or for smarter- and more-virtuous-than-thou amateurism.
European states were rendered largely defenseless by their self-inflicted catastrophes of the 20th century and it's been up to the US to lead and keep things in relative order since 1945. Unfortunately, the President has a world view that is uniquely un-American for a holder of that office and the bad guys have finally realized it. Do you think it's any coincidence that so much seems to be going so wrong internationally at this point in his Administration? I'm afraid that the world is going to get very ugly during the next two years as the bad guys try to get it while the getting is good.
American leadership matters and the White House is no place for self-delusion, or for smarter- and more-virtuous-than-thou amateurism.
5
This cease fire will stick only so long as Putin wants it to stick. As soon as the furor dies down, Putin will restart the offensive. He plays Obama and Merkel like fools, dangling carrots in front of them in the form random cease fires and negotiations. In the end Russia will regain Ukraine and Obama will be left scratching his head, wondering why Putin was not more reasonable. Reasonable is not a word ex-KGB agents either understand or practice.
7
Can we discuss the discussion? I notice that critics of Russia less often include facts about the lead-up to this crisis, or about the facts the ground, than they invoke, "Putin Derangement Syndrome," whereby you call Putin names (bully, monster, oligarch) instead of addressing the issues. (This sort of specious attack was seen vs Obama whereby he was a muslin, and a socialist, and an African nationalist.)
Name calling is the lowest form of disagreement: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html - Graphically: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreem... .
Probably no person here actually knows or has met Putin (according to GW Bush he's not so bad a fellow.) If you wonder how so many people come to dismiss all forms of reasoned response on a complex issue in order to throw away their opinion slinging meaningless mud, so do I. I figure they're parroting what they've read in the papers.
Name calling is the lowest form of disagreement: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html - Graphically: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreem... .
Probably no person here actually knows or has met Putin (according to GW Bush he's not so bad a fellow.) If you wonder how so many people come to dismiss all forms of reasoned response on a complex issue in order to throw away their opinion slinging meaningless mud, so do I. I figure they're parroting what they've read in the papers.
17
Calling Putin an oligarch and a dictator isn't name-calling, it's an accurate description of the apex of the Russian government.
2
The group that instigated this crisis by violently overthrowing an elected government have yet to state their aims and objectives for such action.
Reportedly this action was well organized and supported by foreign mercenary groups.
Immediately after the elected government in Keiv fell the apparent victors installed a new government more to their liking and were received in Washington by the President himself.
Putin/Russia is reacting to what is clearly a threat to the security to Russia and the Russian Federation and not surprisingly is going to take steps to ensure that this will not happen again.
The US/Nato provisional plan to offer military aid is likely to have very unpredictable results and will at best,eventually lead to yet another US dominated, permanent war zone being established, where nobody can live in peace.
Reportedly this action was well organized and supported by foreign mercenary groups.
Immediately after the elected government in Keiv fell the apparent victors installed a new government more to their liking and were received in Washington by the President himself.
Putin/Russia is reacting to what is clearly a threat to the security to Russia and the Russian Federation and not surprisingly is going to take steps to ensure that this will not happen again.
The US/Nato provisional plan to offer military aid is likely to have very unpredictable results and will at best,eventually lead to yet another US dominated, permanent war zone being established, where nobody can live in peace.
16
How very unfortunate that the US did not care to participate in crafting the Ukraine cease-fire, and instead to chose to wait it out and prepare to arm the Ukrainians in the next US proxy war.
4
As imperfect and unstable this newest "agreement" is, it is vastly superior to the US push to send arms (and "instructors") to Ukraine.
It should also be noted that the new/additional EU sanctions will go into effect immediately and that the IMF has committed some 17 Billion to Ukraine to try and stabilize the country - all of it far from enough, but, again, more rational and cheaper than military escalation, both in monetary terms and especially in human terms.
Unfortunately, in another hotspot, ISIS, the US and Obama have shown that we have not learned anything about the limits of military power from 10 years of insanity in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It should also be noted that the new/additional EU sanctions will go into effect immediately and that the IMF has committed some 17 Billion to Ukraine to try and stabilize the country - all of it far from enough, but, again, more rational and cheaper than military escalation, both in monetary terms and especially in human terms.
Unfortunately, in another hotspot, ISIS, the US and Obama have shown that we have not learned anything about the limits of military power from 10 years of insanity in Iraq and Afghanistan.
10
Forget the truce. Putin(Russia) is a bully and only responds to grit. Ramp up the economic sanctions, stop exporting food to Russia and estabish Nato/Cia beachheads at all bordering cities(Kiev/Minsk/Tallinin. Do not allow any access to Crimea from Russia.
14
The rantings of a lunatic. You clearly know nothing. Do you even know where MInsk is located? Are you aware of the situation in Tallinin?
3
What's the situation in Talinn, Mr Putin --oops, I mean Mr. SNillisen?!
1
We should send soldiers and weapons that are unmarked. Then, the US and NATO can say that they have not been involved in the conflict. If Putin can play this game, why can't we?
9
Russia will respond with serious force that close to their border, and dont forget that the use of tactical nukes is paret of Russian military doctrine. Any NATO attack or interference in Crimea would mean war.
3
Because then we would be playing the villains´ game - just to mention one reason.
1
Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham called for sending arms to Ukraine in the face of the cease fire talks between Putin, Merkel, Hollande, and Poroshenko. Probably, this was not a bad thing. It must have been in Putin’s mind and made him a little more careful during the negotiations.
5
Not likely. This is a geopolitical struggle on the Russian frontier. There is little the west can do but allow Russia to clean up the Nuland/Pyatt coup mess by restructuring the map
4
No cease-fire will stick until it becomes evident what the least is that Mr. Putin will settle for. If that's a forever-war that will keep the region perpetually destabilized, then Europe will need to decide what a Ukraine as member while on the frontiers to Russia really is worth to them. The cost will be high. It will be higher still if Putin wants Ukraine as a transparent satrapy of Russia; less if he'll settle for the eastern regions.
But the inability to define what it is that Putin will settle for risks cycles of breakout and a lot of death that, in the end, won't contribute at all to the solution that will eventually be imposed.
Regardless of what it is that he'll really settle for, it's in everyone's interests to know what it is soonest.
But the inability to define what it is that Putin will settle for risks cycles of breakout and a lot of death that, in the end, won't contribute at all to the solution that will eventually be imposed.
Regardless of what it is that he'll really settle for, it's in everyone's interests to know what it is soonest.
2
Of course the Times seeks to have Russia continue to be punished. Apaaart from the one-sided and inaccurate reporting on the ousting of an elected govenment, it implies that somehow Russia was responsible for the breakdown of the Minssk accords. No mention was made of the military and economc assault on its own cities by the Poroshenko regime, nor of the continual bombing of Donerk by the Nazi-loving Azov Battalion, which lead to the renewed fighting.
What remains unchanged is only the hard-line against Russia at the point when the counter-attack by the rebel militia have put Poroshenko's forces, and indeed the failing Ukrainian state itself, in dire straits.
What remains unchanged is only the hard-line against Russia at the point when the counter-attack by the rebel militia have put Poroshenko's forces, and indeed the failing Ukrainian state itself, in dire straits.
25
Do you appreciate the fact that you get to write this Russian propaganda in a western paper, but if you tried to write a western view in Russian papers you would find your self in a gulag? How much are they paying you or are you just delusional?
2
How about the invasion and annexation of another country's territory. Nuland's so-called action are nothing compared to that. But this all seems ot have escaped your view. I wonder why?
It needs to be noted...because it is True....that the entire "Ukraine crisis" started with a United States instigated and supported (Google "Victoria Nuland Ukraine") Coup in Ukraine after the duly elected President was fire bombed and mortared out of his office by usa supported rightist terrorists. Mr. Poroshenko is a coup leader. And the ethnic Russian residents of Eastern Ukraine had every reason to feel threatened by the coup leader and his rightist mob.
The original president's "Crime" was accepting a far more generous financial aid package offered by Russia than the less comprehensive aid package offered by the EU.
In addition, the New York Times should needs to get real and make the truth of the "Ukraine crisis" plain to its readers....That the Overriding issue in this "Ukraine crisis" was and is the United States obsession with moving NATO to the immediate border of Russia....something that represents a legitimate casus belli to every Russian !!!
The original president's "Crime" was accepting a far more generous financial aid package offered by Russia than the less comprehensive aid package offered by the EU.
In addition, the New York Times should needs to get real and make the truth of the "Ukraine crisis" plain to its readers....That the Overriding issue in this "Ukraine crisis" was and is the United States obsession with moving NATO to the immediate border of Russia....something that represents a legitimate casus belli to every Russian !!!
42
Judging by the rest of the comments, yours is one of the few sensible ones, saber rattling is the only tool America understands, No one seems to understand that Russia has real security interests in Ukraine remaining neutral and they will fight for that. And I mean THEY, not HE.
Everyone is making "Putin the bully" central but it has far more to do with Russia's security interests and the need for Russian speaking Ukrainians to preserve their autonomy.
Let us not risk war for something which does not really matter to us, and something which can be resolved peacefully by accepting the other party's legitimate interests.
Everyone is making "Putin the bully" central but it has far more to do with Russia's security interests and the need for Russian speaking Ukrainians to preserve their autonomy.
Let us not risk war for something which does not really matter to us, and something which can be resolved peacefully by accepting the other party's legitimate interests.
5
You got that right.
On your side; and argument constructed of facts.
On the other side, Putin Derangement Syndrome.
On your side; and argument constructed of facts.
On the other side, Putin Derangement Syndrome.
1
@Jay DIamond
Very little of what you have written is "True". The overthrow of Yanukovich wasn't a coup. It was a popular uprising that started when Yanukovich used excessive force to clamp down on a protest and ended when his security forces and political allies lost their never; followed by Yanukovich who then fled.
The Nuland canard is nothing more than a phone call she had with a colleague discussing the Ukrainian opposition leaders, which diplomats are supposed to do.
" is the United States obsession with moving NATO to the immediate border of Russia"
NATO has been on the border with Russia since its formation (Norway), was on the border of the USSR again when Turkey joined and again was on the Russian border when the Baltics joined.
If the Russian deal had been so generous, it wouldn't have needed to threaten Ukraine with trade sanctions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/22/world/europe/ukraine-refuses-to-free-e...
Very little of what you have written is "True". The overthrow of Yanukovich wasn't a coup. It was a popular uprising that started when Yanukovich used excessive force to clamp down on a protest and ended when his security forces and political allies lost their never; followed by Yanukovich who then fled.
The Nuland canard is nothing more than a phone call she had with a colleague discussing the Ukrainian opposition leaders, which diplomats are supposed to do.
" is the United States obsession with moving NATO to the immediate border of Russia"
NATO has been on the border with Russia since its formation (Norway), was on the border of the USSR again when Turkey joined and again was on the Russian border when the Baltics joined.
If the Russian deal had been so generous, it wouldn't have needed to threaten Ukraine with trade sanctions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/22/world/europe/ukraine-refuses-to-free-e...
The solution is to carry through with Putin's worst fear; admit Ukraine to N.A.T.O. Would that be an act of war? Isn't invading a sovereign nation an act of war? Didn't we learn a thing from Neville Chamberlain's proclamation of "peace in our time"? Providing weapons to the Ukraine will do no good. Provide them with a trained army. Tip-toeing around a man such as Putin encourages him to behave more brazenly. Face him down now, or face him down later. There is no other choice.
8
Let's face him later when Ukraine is prosperous.
Then you can say - See, that what you missed and was against.
Then you can say - See, that what you missed and was against.
Nonsense, Russia will take half of Ukraine at the very least if NATO grants Ukraine membership.
2
Another American eager to risk a thermonuclear war of extinction for the "satisfaction" of showing Russia who's the baddest. Yes, invasion of a sovereign nation is an act of war, something we have done over and over since WWII. The state dept has yet to provide proof of the o called "Russian invasion," unlike Ambassador Stevenson who did so at the UN when the shoe was on the other foot." (Not that we need another disgraceful Colin Powell show!) The comparison to Chamberlain is absurd and ahistorical as it was the allies, including Hitler admirer Chamberlain, who "made peace" in order to "guarantee" the Nazi turn toward Russia. And it worked.
2
I believe Ukraine needs to have military support not only by the US but also by the EU. The country has been put into misery by Russia and Putin's megalomeniac attitude; too many civilians have died because of Ukraine's weak military defense system.
I don't understand why Mr. Putin is having is demands met or why he is even part of peace talks, doesn't he and Russia completely deny any involvement whatsoever? Shouldn't it be the leader of the rebels part of the Minsk talks since Russia has not part in this war whatsoever ( as Mr. Putin continuosly says!)?
His presence in Minsk is a demonstration of his deceitful way and the world must stand up to his way!
I don't understand why Mr. Putin is having is demands met or why he is even part of peace talks, doesn't he and Russia completely deny any involvement whatsoever? Shouldn't it be the leader of the rebels part of the Minsk talks since Russia has not part in this war whatsoever ( as Mr. Putin continuosly says!)?
His presence in Minsk is a demonstration of his deceitful way and the world must stand up to his way!
4
Putin was in Minsk because the west wanted him there, and they claim he is behind the conflagration.
Ukraine has been in misery for the last 20 years - that's why "maidan" has happened in the first place. There are two choices: if you don't like the neighborhood - move out or behave, let say, like Finland, who lived in the same neighborhood without such problems and is prosperous. If economically Ukraine had scored better, no "maidan" has happened, neither East wanted to secede.
It is fatuous to believe that this cease fire is any more likely to be lasting than the others. That's because the underlying issue has not been resolved. Russia will not tolerate Ukraine integrating with the West and is willing to fight to prevent that. All this nonsense about the rights of ethnic Great Russians is, at best a cover story for the fundamental problem. It is not coincidence that the most recent cease fire broke down shortly after Ukraine renewed its rhetorical efforts to join the EU.
With respect to Ms Merkel and Mr Hollande, they still see that as a possibility. But as soon as another effort is made to do so, you will see a sudden renewed outburst of violence that will result in even more dire circumstances for Ukraine. Russia has no intention of allowing it to escape Moscow's orbit.
The entire intent of the aggression is first, to secure Russia's access to the Black Sea. Then it is intended to create such issues in Ukraine that no one in the EU would be willing to take it in, while the "rebel" areas and the federalization deal is intended to cripple Ukraine politically and economically.
And if Ukraine does move westward, Russia's intent is to calve off as much of it as possible.
Regardless of any agreement, Putin will continue to destabilize Ukraine. Putin's sincerity in this situation is exactly the same as that of Adolph Hitler after Munich in 1936, and the end result will likely be the same.
With respect to Ms Merkel and Mr Hollande, they still see that as a possibility. But as soon as another effort is made to do so, you will see a sudden renewed outburst of violence that will result in even more dire circumstances for Ukraine. Russia has no intention of allowing it to escape Moscow's orbit.
The entire intent of the aggression is first, to secure Russia's access to the Black Sea. Then it is intended to create such issues in Ukraine that no one in the EU would be willing to take it in, while the "rebel" areas and the federalization deal is intended to cripple Ukraine politically and economically.
And if Ukraine does move westward, Russia's intent is to calve off as much of it as possible.
Regardless of any agreement, Putin will continue to destabilize Ukraine. Putin's sincerity in this situation is exactly the same as that of Adolph Hitler after Munich in 1936, and the end result will likely be the same.
29
Putin's swincerity in this matter is no less than the sincerity of the past 4-5 US presdients who have backed out of treaties as well as assurances that NATO would not advance east. Russia is saying "Not one step further" They mean it, and are prepared to take on NATO and or the US over this geopolitical struggle on THEIR border.
1
Russia already borders the Black Sea. Invoking Hitler is the first and most obvious sign of a lousy argument.
1
Yes it is astounding how many supposedly intelligent people ignore history and the baser parts of human nature.
Does anyone on the NYT editorial board really think anything short of force is going to stop Putin? It was so kind of Angela to practically give away eastern Ukraine to Mr. Putin to stop his invasion. Putin understands something that eludes the NYT editorial board: power is held by only those that are willing to use it. More sanctions if Putin doesn't hold up his end of the deal. Really? More sanctions. Do any of the appeasers on the NYT editorial board have anything that they would actually fight to protect?
46
Ukraine is not part of the EU, EZ, NATO or the United States of America.
Military power is an ineffective option for resolving an ethnic sectarian socioeconomic political educational dispute among nation states with long historical ethnic sectarian cultural linguistic ties. That is the lesson learned from American failure and defeat in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. Winning the peace in furtherance of American interests and values requires the power of diplomacy, humanitarian aid and commerce.
Since the beginning of the war on terror only .75% of Americans have volunteered to put on an American military uniform. And 22 of our veterans commit suicide every day.
Military power is an ineffective option for resolving an ethnic sectarian socioeconomic political educational dispute among nation states with long historical ethnic sectarian cultural linguistic ties. That is the lesson learned from American failure and defeat in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. Winning the peace in furtherance of American interests and values requires the power of diplomacy, humanitarian aid and commerce.
Since the beginning of the war on terror only .75% of Americans have volunteered to put on an American military uniform. And 22 of our veterans commit suicide every day.
1
dudley, we encourage you to go volunteer with the Ukraine army if you feel this is a Chamberlain moment. But leave the rest of us out of it. Russia has a major navy base and most of the population of eastern Ukraine is Russian. So this is not like Hitler and WWII; it is different. Try to understand the details.
The efforts of German Chancellor Angela Merkel and President
Francois Hollande of course is invaluable.
This is a real attempt to stop this carnage and murder.
But this is only the first steps ....
Let us ask ourselves - how this situation has become possible?
Only was to blame President Putin?
Of course not, sane person will respond.
The root cause of all was the policy of the central government in Kiev.
They sent troops to the east. Tthey bombed the city of Donetsk and Lugansk.
What should people out there in the east? Watch silently as they are killed?
The next decisive step should be to make the authorities in Kiev.
United States and Europe must put pressure on the government of Ukraine.
In Ukraine need constitutional reform and the state apparatus by type
Federation (as in Germany, as in the USA, as in Russia)
Unwillingness of the authorities in Kiev on this issue and to resolve this issue
by military means will not stop fighting there AT NO TIME.
The USA MUST also understand this and look at things realistically ...
Francois Hollande of course is invaluable.
This is a real attempt to stop this carnage and murder.
But this is only the first steps ....
Let us ask ourselves - how this situation has become possible?
Only was to blame President Putin?
Of course not, sane person will respond.
The root cause of all was the policy of the central government in Kiev.
They sent troops to the east. Tthey bombed the city of Donetsk and Lugansk.
What should people out there in the east? Watch silently as they are killed?
The next decisive step should be to make the authorities in Kiev.
United States and Europe must put pressure on the government of Ukraine.
In Ukraine need constitutional reform and the state apparatus by type
Federation (as in Germany, as in the USA, as in Russia)
Unwillingness of the authorities in Kiev on this issue and to resolve this issue
by military means will not stop fighting there AT NO TIME.
The USA MUST also understand this and look at things realistically ...
18
Good luck when Putin decides to protect ethnic Russians in the Baltic states.
5
Historically, I think we've seen this "blame the victim" used a few times before, Vasily. In what way, exactly, might Ukraine's doing its own thing hurt Russia?
6
Vasily uncritically states Putin's propaganda lines perfectly here. Let it not be said that these comments do not include Putin's version of the "facts." Not everybody, though, is so gullible and susceptible to Putin's lies.
2
I think the U.S. has to stop and consider what will work.
What will work in Ukraine is far from clear, as is the definition of work.
As a gedanken experiment, consider what would happen if Russian troops invaded and took over Cuba to protect a puppet Cuban leader.
By personalizing this conflict as the United States versus Vladimir Putin, it is possible to forget what the reaction of the Russian people will be to the presence of American arms and troops at war on their border. Will these arms and troops be greated with flowers in their hair by a Russian people delirious with joy to be freed from the dictatorship of Vladimir Putin?
What will work in Ukraine is far from clear, as is the definition of work.
As a gedanken experiment, consider what would happen if Russian troops invaded and took over Cuba to protect a puppet Cuban leader.
By personalizing this conflict as the United States versus Vladimir Putin, it is possible to forget what the reaction of the Russian people will be to the presence of American arms and troops at war on their border. Will these arms and troops be greated with flowers in their hair by a Russian people delirious with joy to be freed from the dictatorship of Vladimir Putin?
9
Before Putin's invasions, there was no US presence on Russia's borders. After the invasions, there will be. Lots of them. You are confused about cause and effect. You may be spending too much time listening to PUtin's propaganda TV.
1
That's why the West should help Ukraine to create a modern army capable of protecting the country's borders from thugs.
13
It is imperative for the West to keep Mr. Putin's feet to the fire? It's unlikely that will work. He appears to be wearing fire resistant boots.
11
The Times is merely repeating what State Dept. said, but of course, no threats or penalties for non-compliance by Kiev or its Azov Nazi Battalion. Nope.
1
Under what circumstances would this Editorial Page support military assistance to the Ukrainians?
Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and USA Today all support.
There is massive, bi - partisan support in Congress to arm Ukraine. Not just from the McCain's, but Dick Durbin, Barbara Boxer and Robert Menendez as well.
What are you guys thinking over there? Do you believe it is OK to disarm a nation of their nuclear deterrant (as we did to Ukraine in 1994), make security assurances and then stand by as the country gets run over by Russian tanks?
Have you thought of the long term ramifications of denying assistance and allowing the utter destruction of a peaceful country that we were sworn to protect?
Why don't we revisit this conversation when Putin is in the Baltics, Poland or Berlin...
Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and USA Today all support.
There is massive, bi - partisan support in Congress to arm Ukraine. Not just from the McCain's, but Dick Durbin, Barbara Boxer and Robert Menendez as well.
What are you guys thinking over there? Do you believe it is OK to disarm a nation of their nuclear deterrant (as we did to Ukraine in 1994), make security assurances and then stand by as the country gets run over by Russian tanks?
Have you thought of the long term ramifications of denying assistance and allowing the utter destruction of a peaceful country that we were sworn to protect?
Why don't we revisit this conversation when Putin is in the Baltics, Poland or Berlin...
41
Maybe the US should not interfere at Russia's border country. How would feel if Russia was arming Mexico or Canada?. Look no further than in Cuba, 100 miles away, where JFK was ready to go to war prevent exactly what we are doing in Ukraine. We did not disarm Ukraine in 1994, it was some kind of agreement by Russia, UK and US, but no treaty. Suggest rethink what really happened here and review what the US actions were during the coup. Revisit support US gave the Kiev coup group. No one country should dominate the world else they will act like the US did in Iraq.
21
Russia's oil and gas dictate European and US policy. Merkel needs the gas and EXXON, BP wants the billions in the Russian oil fields. The Baltics and Poland are expendable. They have no oil fields or natural gas. Our Russian policy is dictated by economics and greed. Wars are always about economics, greed and yes, vanity.
3
So you believe Russia can veto the arming of any of its neighbors and as it expands the number of its neighbors expand, so basically our argument is that Russian should have the right to decide the entire world's rearmament policies. Yes, I am sure that will bring peace in our time.
5
Putin had two goals at Minsk II: preventing the US from sending lethal arms to Ukraine and preventing further economic sanctions against his plutocratic regime. He achieved both.
Your comment that "sending lethal arms to Ukraine...would be an irresponsible and dangerous move in the current situation" will cause Putin to smile and crack open the champagne. Appeasement continues!
After this great victory, why would Putin withdraw non-existent troops and weapons? He can continue this exercise in international Darwinism, knowing that the US and Europe will continue to bury their heads in the sand, hoping that this security crisis will go away. The triumph of "ostrichism".
Sadly, NATO emerges from Minsk II without a coherent unified vision of containing Putin. NATO continues to operate under self-delusion that "it is imperative for the West to keep his feet to the fire", as if his feet were ever put to the fire.
Minsk II is not only a bitter pill for Ukraine, but it can only cause continuing fear in Poland and the Baltic state that NATO is a paper tiger constantly outwitted by Putin.
Your comment that "sending lethal arms to Ukraine...would be an irresponsible and dangerous move in the current situation" will cause Putin to smile and crack open the champagne. Appeasement continues!
After this great victory, why would Putin withdraw non-existent troops and weapons? He can continue this exercise in international Darwinism, knowing that the US and Europe will continue to bury their heads in the sand, hoping that this security crisis will go away. The triumph of "ostrichism".
Sadly, NATO emerges from Minsk II without a coherent unified vision of containing Putin. NATO continues to operate under self-delusion that "it is imperative for the West to keep his feet to the fire", as if his feet were ever put to the fire.
Minsk II is not only a bitter pill for Ukraine, but it can only cause continuing fear in Poland and the Baltic state that NATO is a paper tiger constantly outwitted by Putin.
55
Unless you have lived under a rock since the start of this century: Russia is trying to contain NATO, not the other way around.
6
I was going to comment but really you've said it all. I would just point out that it isn't a question of the West or NATO being outwitted - everyone knows what the situation is - it's just that we in the West don't want to deal with the reality. Better to smile and pretend that after Minsk II we will have "peace in our time" even if that illusion can only be maintained for a few weeks. There's a new definition of insanity for you.
3
The EU/EZ/IMF/WB is already carrying the socioeconomic political burden of Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal. They do not need nor want nor deserve the additional weight of the crony capitalist oligarchs in Kiev Ukraine and Moscow Russia as well.
Besides they have all decided to shelter under the American $ 640 billion military-industrial complex. Their military option is Uncle Sam. And Uncle has been flailing about musclebound and confused and too busy.
Let Putin's Russia finance and pay for Ukraine.
Besides they have all decided to shelter under the American $ 640 billion military-industrial complex. Their military option is Uncle Sam. And Uncle has been flailing about musclebound and confused and too busy.
Let Putin's Russia finance and pay for Ukraine.
Putin will not stop sticking his finger in the eye of the West until he is forced to from inside Russia. To think otherwise is to totally misunderstand the Russian psyche and its hunger and admiration for Great Man leadership.
32
This is citation from reaction of one of the East Ukraine insurgent leaders to Minsk 2.0 agreements. It explains how little chance this agreements have without active anti-war position of USA. I put his opinion here "as is":
"This is a "truce" with 90% probability "to die without being born"... I believe that if one of the two opponents wants reconciliation (Russia and East Ukraine insurgents) and the other (USA and current Kiev government) firmly going to fight, fight will take place anyway. Therefore it is necessary to recall the ancient classics: "If you want peace - prepare for war." Second, the intervention of "friends" (USA and Western Europe) began from "Maidan" and since then has not stopped. I am almost completely convinced that war with Russia with their own hands they will not do. They will fight "until the last Ukrainian soldier" - yes. And will generously supply weapons (trainers, money, etc.) for this purpose. Their plan "is clear as glass" - prolong the war (without giving Russia to win a decisive victory) until the moment when the economic and political situation in Russia will lead it to a collapse (and then replace the current Russian leadership by pro-western one). "
Link to the source (in russian):
http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/9873-igor-strelkov-vyskazalsya-o-m...
"This is a "truce" with 90% probability "to die without being born"... I believe that if one of the two opponents wants reconciliation (Russia and East Ukraine insurgents) and the other (USA and current Kiev government) firmly going to fight, fight will take place anyway. Therefore it is necessary to recall the ancient classics: "If you want peace - prepare for war." Second, the intervention of "friends" (USA and Western Europe) began from "Maidan" and since then has not stopped. I am almost completely convinced that war with Russia with their own hands they will not do. They will fight "until the last Ukrainian soldier" - yes. And will generously supply weapons (trainers, money, etc.) for this purpose. Their plan "is clear as glass" - prolong the war (without giving Russia to win a decisive victory) until the moment when the economic and political situation in Russia will lead it to a collapse (and then replace the current Russian leadership by pro-western one). "
Link to the source (in russian):
http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/9873-igor-strelkov-vyskazalsya-o-m...
3
This strategy of using a complete reversal of the truth - claiming that it's the US and the Ukraine government that launched and are furthering this war, when it's Russia and that are the one's actually doing the attacking' - is an effective way of creating just enough doubt and confusion in the dilute criticism of Putin's aggression in the West, while rallying the faithful in Russia.
Kind of like the Republican's pursuing their Obama-as-illegal-muslim-immigrant narrative. Clearly false, but an effective means of distracting public attention just enough to shift public debate.
Kind of like the Republican's pursuing their Obama-as-illegal-muslim-immigrant narrative. Clearly false, but an effective means of distracting public attention just enough to shift public debate.
2
This thug is just getting started. And I'm sure he's up for another Great Patriotic War.
11
"A “glimmer of hope” but “no illusion” was the inauspicious way Angela Merkel,"
Translated into German this means we all know perfectly well this agreement will not solve anything (and we're not taking any responsibility for it in any case not having put our signatures to it) but it enable everyone to carry on pretending war hasn't really broken out.
Translated into German this means we all know perfectly well this agreement will not solve anything (and we're not taking any responsibility for it in any case not having put our signatures to it) but it enable everyone to carry on pretending war hasn't really broken out.
13
This is a good agreement. Mr Poroshenko gets to keep the Eastern provinces as part of Ukraine, and the Eastern provinces get more autonomy. This could not happen until the separatists had proven to Kiev that there was no military solution to this problem.
Now all parties need to step up and help Ukraine rebuild. Russia, The EU and the US need to provide considerable aid to Ukraine to rebuild the war torn East and to rebuild Ukraine's economy and to reduce corruption. There has been a considerable amount of bad blood created between the West and Russia. The media in both cases did the work of painting the other side as the villain. This must stop. Russians read the New York Times online and they know what is printed on these pages. They read President Obama's speech gratuitously bashing Russia. We have some work to do to repair this. In a multi-polar world, the US, the EU and Russia should be natural allies most of the time, and competitors at times. We need to learn how to do this with grace.
Now all parties need to step up and help Ukraine rebuild. Russia, The EU and the US need to provide considerable aid to Ukraine to rebuild the war torn East and to rebuild Ukraine's economy and to reduce corruption. There has been a considerable amount of bad blood created between the West and Russia. The media in both cases did the work of painting the other side as the villain. This must stop. Russians read the New York Times online and they know what is printed on these pages. They read President Obama's speech gratuitously bashing Russia. We have some work to do to repair this. In a multi-polar world, the US, the EU and Russia should be natural allies most of the time, and competitors at times. We need to learn how to do this with grace.
38
More Russian propaganda. Fact, Russia unilaterally annexed Crimea and then invaded eastern Ukraine. Fact, Russia has been supplying armaments and troops into the rebel areas created Russia for the last 8 months. This has been verified by all Western nations and media.
1
It is hard to understand how the Times thinks that providing lethal weapons to Ukraine would be irresponsible when Russian troops are in their country aiding the separatists with heavy weapons, and as we found out before, even antiaircraft missiles which were used to shoot down a civilian plane with great loss of life. Normally we would call this a foreign invasion. But somehow we have drifted into this Chamberlain like soothing of the Russian Bear only to see him pull out his lethal claws again and again.
As reported Ukraine is out-gunned and so Putin has the upper hand as demonstrated by the terms of the cease fire. So we prefer to sit by and not provide weapons to Ukraine to at least even up the sides and then perhaps keep the Russian Bear in his cage and not free to roam over Ukraine. Neville is rising. Perhaps we need a Churchill to see the light.
As reported Ukraine is out-gunned and so Putin has the upper hand as demonstrated by the terms of the cease fire. So we prefer to sit by and not provide weapons to Ukraine to at least even up the sides and then perhaps keep the Russian Bear in his cage and not free to roam over Ukraine. Neville is rising. Perhaps we need a Churchill to see the light.
34
Americans have a very selective memory when it comes to "appeasement" and their rather clichés when not irrelevant Chamberlain mentions, back then the US and Roosevelt were rather handling out a "carte blanche"...
"September 9 1938 – U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt disallows the popular interpretation of Bullitt's speech at a press conference at the White House. Roosevelt states it is "100% wrong" the U.S. would join a "stop-Hitler bloc" under any circumstances, and makes it quite clear that in the event of German aggression against Czechoslovakia, the U.S. would remain neutral." (wikipedia, 1938)
"September 9 1938 – U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt disallows the popular interpretation of Bullitt's speech at a press conference at the White House. Roosevelt states it is "100% wrong" the U.S. would join a "stop-Hitler bloc" under any circumstances, and makes it quite clear that in the event of German aggression against Czechoslovakia, the U.S. would remain neutral." (wikipedia, 1938)
1
When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. Seeing Chamberlain syndrome everywhere will give you perpetual wars.
The former German Nato general Kujat just explained that if the Russian military was or would get involved they would conquer Ukraine within a couple of days. I think this sounds rather reasonable. It seems to be clear however that Russia is supporting the Russian separatist in the East Ukraine with clandestine manpower and arms. But didn't the US do the same thing when they invaded Panama to protect American citizens or are they not arming and training the rebels in Syria on a large scale as well, to just mention two examples? I even read that US "Academy" agents are also active in the Ukraine. But these tit for tat accusations don't get very far. I just do recommend to read John Mearsheimer's highly intelligent and non-ideological analysis of the Ukraine crisis in the FOREIGN AFFAIRS Magazine. He makes it clear that the US and Russia have to return to "Realpolitik" and pragmatic solutions.
So, stop killing today? Nyet!
Stop killing on Sunday? Dah!
Insanity! For two days Putin wants more dead Ukrainians? Inhuman!!!
Stop killing on Sunday? Dah!
Insanity! For two days Putin wants more dead Ukrainians? Inhuman!!!
17
In Civil war there are numerous armed groups from both sides and not strictly under central command. May be it is surprise for you, but Ukrainian army employs "private" battalions, which may disagree with the armistice. So goes to other side. Yes, it takes time.
The fact that Mr. Putin achieved or "has been offered a far better deal than he deserves" proves his success. He can basically continue what he has been doing, as Russians do not have to be withdrawn since they have never been in Ukraine, as it were.
Mr. Putin also knows that the West will not arm Ukraine, unless it wishes to risk all out war and Ukraine will lose.
So "it is imperative for the West to keep his (i.e. Mr. Putin's) feet to the fire", that would seem to be a joke.
Mr. Putin also knows that the West will not arm Ukraine, unless it wishes to risk all out war and Ukraine will lose.
So "it is imperative for the West to keep his (i.e. Mr. Putin's) feet to the fire", that would seem to be a joke.
31
Is Vladimir Putin the Russian Benjamin Netanyahu? Or is it the reverse Netanyahu is the Israeli Putin?
Neither. The long historical ethnic sectarian socioeconomic political educational geographic ties between the Slavic Ukrainians and Russians refined and honed by hostile Khans, Sultans and a Fuehrer are normal, natural, moral and just. Ukraine and Russia were one before they were united in the Soviet Union and divided by the Soviet collapse. Russia and Ukraine are primarily a European problem.
That is not true of the Zionist European Jews of Israel and Christian Muslim Arab Palestinian Israelis.
Neither. The long historical ethnic sectarian socioeconomic political educational geographic ties between the Slavic Ukrainians and Russians refined and honed by hostile Khans, Sultans and a Fuehrer are normal, natural, moral and just. Ukraine and Russia were one before they were united in the Soviet Union and divided by the Soviet collapse. Russia and Ukraine are primarily a European problem.
That is not true of the Zionist European Jews of Israel and Christian Muslim Arab Palestinian Israelis.
They're leaving people who are surrounded to be massacred by not having cease-fire stop immediately.
These were some of the terms Kiev had to agree to.
But a cease-fire must be. We cannot ship arms to Ukraine. We haven't learned anything in our long history of regime changes.
Thank you Hollande, Merkel, Poroshenko and even Putin, for avoiding what would be worse for all.
These were some of the terms Kiev had to agree to.
But a cease-fire must be. We cannot ship arms to Ukraine. We haven't learned anything in our long history of regime changes.
Thank you Hollande, Merkel, Poroshenko and even Putin, for avoiding what would be worse for all.
11
Your concern for the Nazi-loving Azov Battalion is very touching. Would that their heroes and forbears in the Waffen SS had as much sympathy for the 70,000 Poles, Jews and Russians they brutally murdered during the German occupation. Perhaps your Wolfsangel wearing unit should have thought of the possible consequences before they began their constant shelling of Donetsk.
The German Chancellor and the French President have offered an escape route to the Russian President by brokering a cease fire with Ukraine. Putin, who was facing one of the worst economic crisis with falling oil prices, tumbling Rubble, and virtual ostracisation by the West, was losing ground in terms of his popularity in Russia. The peace move would not have come at a better time.
It must be remembered that any military assistance to Ukraine would have made Putin a hero in his country, and would have led to a cold war. It is in this context, the brokered negotiation by Angela Merkel should be understood and appreciated. Russia should not attempt to break the peace deal, as it is not in its interests to see its neighbor being fully armed by the West. This would lead Russia to be perpetually engaged in its limited war with its neighbor and, in the process, see its economy on a free fall. A situation not in the best interests of the ordinary Russian.
It must be remembered that any military assistance to Ukraine would have made Putin a hero in his country, and would have led to a cold war. It is in this context, the brokered negotiation by Angela Merkel should be understood and appreciated. Russia should not attempt to break the peace deal, as it is not in its interests to see its neighbor being fully armed by the West. This would lead Russia to be perpetually engaged in its limited war with its neighbor and, in the process, see its economy on a free fall. A situation not in the best interests of the ordinary Russian.
13
That's the rosy view but two things undermine the argument.
You say Putin would be made a hero in his country if military assistance were to be given to Ukraine which somewhat contradicts your point that it is not in his interests to break this agreement (which incidentally he did not sign himself) since then Ukraine might get military assistance (most unlikely not 'fully armed' given all the West's very public hesitations)
Secondly the interests of ordinary Russian by any normal calculations don't appear to be the same as those of Putin.
You say Putin would be made a hero in his country if military assistance were to be given to Ukraine which somewhat contradicts your point that it is not in his interests to break this agreement (which incidentally he did not sign himself) since then Ukraine might get military assistance (most unlikely not 'fully armed' given all the West's very public hesitations)
Secondly the interests of ordinary Russian by any normal calculations don't appear to be the same as those of Putin.
5
Sir, you err by suggesting that Russia is about to collapse. Their economy has had one quarter of negative growth, and the west is all over this. Seems toi me the US economy deflated in the first quarter of 2014. I know enough people in Russia to know that the story about Russian difficulties, is way overblown in the west to fuel the same silly narrative.
2
It is hardly a fact that the interests of the US govt are in line with those of its people either.
2
Just maybe, Chancellor Merkel has made it possible for a future President Hillary Clinton to press the reset button with Vladimir Putin...
2
No US president will likely humiliate him- or herself with a naive and hubristic move like that again. That was an act of people who had never been responsible for foreign policy or dealt with people like Putin.
7
"The Monroe Doctrine was a US foreign policy regarding Latin American countries in 1823. It stated that further efforts by European nations to colonize land or interfere with states in North or South America would be viewed as acts of aggression, requiring U.S. intervention." (wikipedia)
"Interference requiring intervention", those who meddled heavily supporting one Ukrainian side of the conflict leading to the overthrow of the previous -dubious yet democratically elected- president can probably be thanked for initiating all this mess. They certainly know who they are.
"Interference requiring intervention", those who meddled heavily supporting one Ukrainian side of the conflict leading to the overthrow of the previous -dubious yet democratically elected- president can probably be thanked for initiating all this mess. They certainly know who they are.
24
Even if you take seriously for a moment this idea that the U.S. or the West had something to do with the downfall of Yanukovych - who by the way had been thrown out of power once before in Ukraine but later returned to the presidency - that in no way justifies Russia's susequent illegal annexation of Crimea and it's massive arming and support of an armed insurrection in the Donbass.
Who has benefited from this conflict, and who has suffered the most? Ukraine has no vested interest in a war with Russia, and neither does the U.S.
Who has benefited from this conflict, and who has suffered the most? Ukraine has no vested interest in a war with Russia, and neither does the U.S.
5
Alot of things have changed since the early 19th Century. It is now hte 21st century.
1
What is the US with its military in over 100 countries, with its meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs [but one nation on a long list], expansion of NATO and US bases, and its support for terrorists in Syria as a proxy to depose Assad for gas pipelines and the Oded Yinon plan to remake the middle east?
For that matter - where was the reporting on Kiev's assault on Eastern Ukraine and the many civilians killed, or on the stunning *non-evidence* of Russian/separatist involvement in shooting down that jetliner?
What about significant evidence that the snipers at Maidan were not what they were made out to be?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-13/untold-story-ukrainian-sniper-w...
Can't we learn from the lies and spin used to get us into Iraq?