As a young professional woman, I found that the only way to get ahead was to work for myself. Even then, most of my client referrals came from other women. I have never been the kind of woman who is willing to cater to men or organize parties. And despite my considerable professional success, I was always seen as not quite a full partner.
11
Ms. Sandberg is clearly very smart and capable and is respected for the work she has done at Facebook. There are many other women who have similar capabilities but will never receive the opportunities and environment she has in which to flourish. The points she raises are of course correct but the reality is that it may not always be possible for women in other less accommodating corporate cultures to move forward without carefully navigating situations as she describes. It's not always that simple and she should be aware that she comes across sometimes as a self congratulatory and smug.
12
Go look at GOP House of Representative leadership
13
I have the privilege of teaching new hire of a big company, after working there for many years. A few thoughts, for whatever it is worth. On average, women are better prepared. On average, they are less likely to speak up. There is a vast difference depending upon one's cultural background. For example, Asians born outside the U.S. are much more likely to be very quiet and let others do the talking. I tell the women, when they ask about work life, to take credit for what they do and that males will have no problem taking credit for what the male did as well as what the quiet female did. I also believe that women apologize too much. I bring the treats to the classes, by the way.
18
The response to presumption is not snark. Otherwise, the world would be filled with fatuous jerks. oh, wait....
3
And in other equally shocking news, (there's tension in the Middle East, China is uncomfortable with the Dalai Lama's influence, we Americans still won't deal openly with our own race problem, and Russia's digging in instead of negotiating. Oh yeah -- and the earth is rebelling and reacting against our longtime ongoing abuse and overpopulation.
Yes; all these exasperatingly discouraging stories --questioned most often by those who believe its not their problem -- remain the same. For this alone, we may occasionally grant ourselves a personal moment of "...not another one of these...."
But for those who object more strenuously to the source, the timing or the examples recounted in this piece, be mindful:
Such writing will will remain necessary, and should always have a prominent public place as long as significant swathes of people remain ignorant of facts, and unaware of the need to change. Its potential impact upon even one previously ignorant person is valuable. To diminish it with sniping is to give the ignorant one more reason to prolong their ignorance, and our problems.
Yes; all these exasperatingly discouraging stories --questioned most often by those who believe its not their problem -- remain the same. For this alone, we may occasionally grant ourselves a personal moment of "...not another one of these...."
But for those who object more strenuously to the source, the timing or the examples recounted in this piece, be mindful:
Such writing will will remain necessary, and should always have a prominent public place as long as significant swathes of people remain ignorant of facts, and unaware of the need to change. Its potential impact upon even one previously ignorant person is valuable. To diminish it with sniping is to give the ignorant one more reason to prolong their ignorance, and our problems.
14
In the early '90s I was hired as an underwriter with a regional insurance company based in the Chicago suburbs. A female office worker saw me drinking a cup of coffee and told me there was a coffee duty list in the kitchenette and that I should sign up to help make coffee and clean up after the end of the day. Mind you, there were several male underwriters working at this company who also drank coffee. I asked the woman if any of my male colleagues had to sign up for coffee duty and she told me no, none of the men in the office are approached to sign up. I told her that until both male and female coffee drinkers were expected to sign up that I would not be doing so. But I felt guilty about drinking from the shared coffee pot so I decided to bring my coffee from home or purchase it on the way to work. Not really much of a statement on my part, in retrospect.
40
This example totally validates this article. Recently at work, I found out about a meeting last minute that totally related/impacted my primary function. Two different vendors were invited in, the president, the CEO, the CMO, and a couple others in the company. I showed up, sat through the meeting, contributed, suggested action items, etc. Remember, I didn't have anything to do with setting up this meeting, I actually found out about it 10 minutes before. I was the *only woman* in the room, with 10 other men. At the conclusion of the meeting, the President, as he was leaving the conference room, turned to me and said, "Leslie, would you please show our guests out?" Remember, I had nothing to do with the meeting, and just met these "guests" for the first time an hour prior. SMH.
34
One technique men use to avoid chores is feigned ignorance. In other respects they are masters of the universe, but when faced with the copy machine they are flummoxed. It's super easy to catch "can't-do" types during job interviews and weed them out so they won't strain working relationships, or gum up the works.
58
There used to be a cliche, "Nice guys finish last." This is not a phenomenon exclusive to women. The problem is framed wrong. It is true that when certain men are competitive, ruthless and narcissistic they win at the organizational game while women who display those traits do not. But the modern workplace really should not be valuing those traits. The problem is the leadership paradigm in the workplace which follows outmoded individualistic success ideas from the last century.
96
Just say NO. Or delegate. Point things out very clearly to men who overstep their boundaries. I was a medical student in the OR, and some of the surgeons I worked with said extremely sexist jokes. If it were me now, I'd say, "these jokes are inappropriate ". You have to stand up for equality, and you have to get ready to take it to the top. It's hard to be a woman, but don't let anyone put you down. Saying nothing is being complicit with their sexist views.
33
I'm certainly the kind of person who speaks up, but there's often a price. Being made fun of behind one's back, being excluded. Other women at all levels aren't always supportive. It's even worse if you're a black woman because you often get the "Angry Black Woman" label for being assertive.
20
It gets worse -- I have known highly accomplished, professional women who have had major accounts, clients or parts of their operations -- which were being handled very successfully -- taken away and given to younger male colleagues. These women were told at the same time by their bosses that it was their responsibility to "help" the younger men succeed and that if they didn't help, their performance reviews would suffer for not being "team players." In one case, this was done over the protests of the CLIENT, the general counsel of a major company who was also a woman. The client pulled her business, the female lawyer left, and the law firm lost both client, revenue and talent. Totally predictable, but the law firm was so blinded by its desire to advance a younger man at the expense of a capable woman that they did this anyway. Unless chief executives and senior leaders root out this stuff, it will never end.
P.S. One such instance happened this year -- yes, in 2015.
P.S. One such instance happened this year -- yes, in 2015.
81
A Filipino friend of mine, major executive, went down to the breakfast room during a major sales meeting and was asked, quite curtly, to fetch more coffee; she complied. The offending party was later mortified to see T. do the major presentation. The coffee commander was a white woman, managing to combine sexual and racist stereotypes - so women are also discriminated against by other women.
53
At least she was mortified. Someone once told me about a black law firm associate who was assumed to be a messenger by a white partner. He handled the situation the way your friend did. The truth later came out and the partner was embarrassed.
But not everyone is.
But not everyone is.
14
In this particular case, it's men who should be taught to be like women. Not the other way round.
Someone has to be the courteous, thoughtful, helpful member of the team. Wouldn't it be nice if it were everyone????
The real problem for women at work is undervaluation of equal or superior work and accomplishment. Otherwise, everyone needs to be more like a woman.
Someone has to be the courteous, thoughtful, helpful member of the team. Wouldn't it be nice if it were everyone????
The real problem for women at work is undervaluation of equal or superior work and accomplishment. Otherwise, everyone needs to be more like a woman.
69
While we were not told of the response of the senior female executive asked by a board member to get a soda, I would hope her respondse would be to look around the room and delegate the task to the lowest ranking man at the table. And add, "Is there anyone else besides Mr. Jones who was unable to get their own drink? Mr. Smith can get it now for you and then we can proceed with the meeting."
26
Great article until I got to this paragraph..."In the consulting firm the female manager who was passed over for a promotion found more efficient ways to help." First off that feels apocryphal. Second, you somehow make the point that women HAVE to help to be rated evenly with men who don't but you still manage to blame women themselves for lack of efficiency and 'failing to put their own oxygen masks on first'. Huh.
27
What I would ask an intelligent critique for is the difference between an Associate's degree and a Bachelor's. Is it the math? The grammar? The answer is probably and/both... . Seriously, thanks for teaching.
1
Ok we know what's wrong......how do we change it .....should be focus instead of War stories, resentments, etc
5
I don't know if my perception is unique or incorrect, but as a "mature" nurse, I found the same experiences could be said of young vs older nurses. And what I observed was as more men entered the profession, they were disproportionately promoted to management positions quite quickly. I am glad to be retired.
30
My wife is a PT and saw none of that. The one advantage she did see though was increased pay. PT was a female dominated field and the pay was terrible but men it seems won't work for that kind of money.
When she graduated my wife moved to Puerto Rico where I was serving in the Navy. She got a job as a PT at a Home Health Care company paying $3.00 an hour. Yes $3.00 with a BS degree. A male colleague was making $6.00 and had not passed the PT exam for his license which my wife had. In fact she passed three of them in order to graduate. The excuse given her was that "Nelson is a man. He has a family to support." My wife refused to buy that line and said so did she. She also complained that Nelson was still working with a provisional license well passed the allowed time. He complained that the test was in English and wanted one in Spanish. He knew there wasn't one and was using that as an excuse. Nelson's Father was career US Army and Nelson speaks English as well as any of us. A Spanish test was created for him which failed. He was terminated and my wife was hated for the next three years by the other male employees. This took place in 1972. I would hope things have improved by now for females.
When she graduated my wife moved to Puerto Rico where I was serving in the Navy. She got a job as a PT at a Home Health Care company paying $3.00 an hour. Yes $3.00 with a BS degree. A male colleague was making $6.00 and had not passed the PT exam for his license which my wife had. In fact she passed three of them in order to graduate. The excuse given her was that "Nelson is a man. He has a family to support." My wife refused to buy that line and said so did she. She also complained that Nelson was still working with a provisional license well passed the allowed time. He complained that the test was in English and wanted one in Spanish. He knew there wasn't one and was using that as an excuse. Nelson's Father was career US Army and Nelson speaks English as well as any of us. A Spanish test was created for him which failed. He was terminated and my wife was hated for the next three years by the other male employees. This took place in 1972. I would hope things have improved by now for females.
8
"For every 1,000 people at work, 80 more women than men burn out — in large part because they fail to secure their own oxygen masks before assisting others."
I use the oxygen mask analogy in therapy with women who are burned out from tending to others. It's a real wake up call that only by making sure you are taking care of yourself can you have enough "left over" to tend to others.
I use the oxygen mask analogy in therapy with women who are burned out from tending to others. It's a real wake up call that only by making sure you are taking care of yourself can you have enough "left over" to tend to others.
20
Lets face it: a lot of women I know bring and fetch and dote on their children - my mother being one of them. Some continue that practice up through adolescence and college age and this is particularly true with mothers and sons, although some fathers I know will say to their young sons "thats women's work." And dare I say it in some cultures boys are kings and would never be asked to help with the laundry or set the table, so they develop a sense of entitlement. That entitlement, without corrections, continues into the work place. The problem is many women want to continue tending to men's needs and many men just continue to expect it, which is annoying for those of us who do not want to wait on men and do not want to be seen in that way. In one place I worked there was a big sign in the kitchen: "your mother doesn't work here" which made me chuckle when I first saw it - but its true! Bottom line: get your own darn coffee and wash your cup afterwards.
33
I was the project leader on numerous engagements and frequently the only woman in a male-dominated area. I often took notes, not because someone else asked me to, but because I found it was the best way to capture the information that we needed. I was actually able to "walk and chew gum" at the same time. I had the information that I needed, literally at my fingertips, so that I could clarify and dig deeper on critical points.
7
I'm a post secondary student and have not worked in a professional environment. Although, I will be going into a professional working environment, these are good things to know.
8
It's good to read that someone your age is learning about these issues. From your name I assume you're male. I would add that awareness is not enough, you have to practice these principles, which can be very hard in an environment in which you think there might be some cost to you. Many people will do whatever favors their careers. I hope you'll be brave enough to be decent and fair and advance change.
7
Hosting a large dinner at home, I asked four teenagers slouched in front of the screen to come help serve dessert. Three boys (one mine!) and one girl--guess which one got up to help? Where did I go wrong?????
27
Our CIO is a female, and leads a large group of male engineers (150 ). She has not once spoke to anyone below director, does not attend IT events because it 'will ruin her image' and needs to lease a new Benz every 3 years. I suppose the opposite side of the spectrum is the woman is so incredibly insecure in her corporate image, she is not liked. However, in a twist of fate, they stuck her under another executive and gave her no stock options.
I direct report to a female engineer who is highly talented and respected. On the other hand, the ex team lead was a female, and we ousted her in a year after trying to create daily meetings when we (all men) worked from home.
It is odd for The Times to paint all female experiences as the same. Not a lot of men have worked under as many females as I have in engineering, but each woman has been vastly different. Management style, how she was treated, etc.
I direct report to a female engineer who is highly talented and respected. On the other hand, the ex team lead was a female, and we ousted her in a year after trying to create daily meetings when we (all men) worked from home.
It is odd for The Times to paint all female experiences as the same. Not a lot of men have worked under as many females as I have in engineering, but each woman has been vastly different. Management style, how she was treated, etc.
10
"It is odd for The Times to paint all female experiences as the same."
In virtually any edition of the Times, you'll find at last a couple of articles that do exactly that, and which pretty much universally show women to be victims of one sort or another.
In virtually any edition of the Times, you'll find at last a couple of articles that do exactly that, and which pretty much universally show women to be victims of one sort or another.
6
It's not the "TImes" that's painting all female experiences as the same as you say (if it's even true that), it's Sandberg and Grant.
3
It does happen. Where I once worked, at a fairly senior level, there was a female clerical employee who always kept a pot of coffee going and shared it with other coffee drinkers. One day she was out sick and a man who was at my approximate level came in and pointed at me and said, you better make some coffee, M is out today. And I said I don't like coffee, I don't drink coffee, and I have no idea how to make it. And that was the end of it. Fortunately he was not in the chain of command over me or I guess I'd have been busy trying to figure out how to make coffee.
40
The failure here is on the part of senior management, which should be doing a much better, strategic job of developing its human capital, i.e. its workforce. When knowledge-intensive workplaces neglect their "talent", they underperform. If senior managers are not taking these issues of unconscious bias and unseen but essential contributions, into account, they are being willfully blind and they are not doing THEIR job, to advance the organization and its missions/goals. It shouldn't just be on the individual employee to navigate these problems.
28
I find interesting the actions the female manager took and how they improved her status. A person who is often “helping” is also often seen as having too many distractions from the work at hand, or being too easily distracted. What did her new approach change? The impact was more than one-on-one; it benefited the organization at a higher level. That’s what got her noticed.
4
Another astute article.
I agree with the state of affairs as described.
The one thing I can say though is if you get asked to take the notes of a meeting, it does in some way reflect that you are trusted to do it because you are valued as smart enough to be the gatekeeper of information. And if you send out a great set of notes, in some small way it does get your name out there in front of those in charge. I would much rather take the notes in a meeting than not be in the meeting.
I agree with the state of affairs as described.
The one thing I can say though is if you get asked to take the notes of a meeting, it does in some way reflect that you are trusted to do it because you are valued as smart enough to be the gatekeeper of information. And if you send out a great set of notes, in some small way it does get your name out there in front of those in charge. I would much rather take the notes in a meeting than not be in the meeting.
8
My instinct for how to respond to the chairman who asked the woman executive to get him coffee in the meeting is to figure out a way to then turn to the entire group and then say"folks, there you have it, we all need to take a short refueling and bathroom break, and will reconvene in 10." Oh wait, maybe in 100 years from now...
9
It seems to me this isn't only an issue of the double standard in the way men and women are valued, but the problem of a corrupt corporate culture that promotes and rewards exactly the wrong type of person - the most arrogant, most manipulative and the least productive. The answer isn't just ending the gender double standard, but also ending the tyranny of jerks.
39
You are exactly right. This is a form of hazing or workplace bullying. These kinds of demands for helpfulness at the expense of individual development derail talented women. Add to these the misogynistic backbiting and insinutations that women colleagues are less competent, less ambitious, less "committed" -- weapons often deployed very deliberately by jerks who want to get ahead via internal politics instead of actually doing good work. Leaders who are blind to it perpetuate it, just as educators who turn a blind eye to bullying in schools empower the bullies and perpetuate the bullying.
25
Here's an idea: when positions come open for secretaries/executive assisants, systematically hire men, especially to support the C-suite. State in onboarding procedures and company culture manuals that note-takers/coffee fetchers in meetings and otherwise are automatically the most junior members present, male or female. As part of the company's learning and development, train employees on these descrepancies and how to best address them as standard employee engagement practice. I would also think that business schools should be paying special attention, offering intense business behavior and negotiation courses for women. Lastly, U.S. corporations need to seriously address the psychological contract in many of their workplaces that insist that marriage, children and time off are a liability. We are well past the Industrial Revolution and the worker-as-a-semi-programmable-robot mentality...or are we?
82
I don't think we need to encourage both men and women to help, I think we need to encourage men to do it and to teach women to refrain from volunteering and to focus on themselves.
The unwritten rule that men are more important than women still manifests in every walk of life but often women are still in denial about it, which allows men to carry on getting away with dominating. Amongst my family and my siblings' friends if I so much as mention the inequality I get shouted down - by men and women.
My blood boiled at reading about how the female exec was asked to get the chairman a soda. What incredible arrogance. Somebody commented here that she experienced the same behavior but it was all good-natured.
It’s not good-natured, it’s about power. The ‘pleasant’ demeanor is a con. Underneath it is a giant threat. ‘Confront me and I’ll punish you.’
Those of us who let ourselves be conned are unfortunately part of the problem. As unjust as it might seem, we have to take the lead on this. We have to learn to say no, to focus on ourselves and our own importance. We have to develop thick skins and good survival skills when we’re mocked and punished for it.
The unwritten rule that men are more important than women still manifests in every walk of life but often women are still in denial about it, which allows men to carry on getting away with dominating. Amongst my family and my siblings' friends if I so much as mention the inequality I get shouted down - by men and women.
My blood boiled at reading about how the female exec was asked to get the chairman a soda. What incredible arrogance. Somebody commented here that she experienced the same behavior but it was all good-natured.
It’s not good-natured, it’s about power. The ‘pleasant’ demeanor is a con. Underneath it is a giant threat. ‘Confront me and I’ll punish you.’
Those of us who let ourselves be conned are unfortunately part of the problem. As unjust as it might seem, we have to take the lead on this. We have to learn to say no, to focus on ourselves and our own importance. We have to develop thick skins and good survival skills when we’re mocked and punished for it.
28
Why, again, are we taking the word of a Silicon Valley billionaire as the gospel of the hard-working woman?
Maybe Ms.Sandberg could share some actual business tips if she wants to help, as opposed to more pointless gender politics. Not your job to make coffee? Don't do it. Or (and here's an idea you don't need an MBA to try at your own office) stick your head out the door and call in an honest-to-God assistant to get the coffee or take some shorthand down?
Or you could complain about it in the Times. Whatever works.
Maybe Ms.Sandberg could share some actual business tips if she wants to help, as opposed to more pointless gender politics. Not your job to make coffee? Don't do it. Or (and here's an idea you don't need an MBA to try at your own office) stick your head out the door and call in an honest-to-God assistant to get the coffee or take some shorthand down?
Or you could complain about it in the Times. Whatever works.
4
Try reading the article. She and her coauthor are citing data from numerous.studies across all industries. This is not about Silicon Valley nor about her personal experience. It's a summary of facts that depict reality. And the article (again, read it) offers many ideas on how to address the problems. Your obvious dislike of Ms. Sandberg is telling, as is your advice to call an assistant to take shorthand and get coffee. Shorthand? What era are you living in?
28
I would love to see an article about how difficult it is for men to get work done in a business environment where women are constantly complaining they don't get their fair share. I dare someone to face reality in today's backwards media. I would like to personally elect Brian Williams for the task. Sheryl Sandberg won a billion dollar lottery ticket. This is not a brick and mortars business woman by any means. I'm sure she has some guilt about her extremely fortunate life but honestly this reality distortion is not the cure.
7
Reality distortion? Read the article -- she is reporting data.
17
Thank you for saying something. I like contributing to comments but I feel like no one reads them. I’m going to walk you through this one.
The only woman in this article that is mentioned in reference to a study is Madeline Heilman. From what I’ve seen, her entire career is centered around this bias. Women in the workplace. All articles of note from her bio on NYU deal with this one isolated subject. Her last article appears to be published in 2007. Now I have no idea what study they are refering too in this article because it is not sited but either way it looks like we are talking really old news here.
The rest of “data” from the “experts”.
Rosabeth Moss Kanter “Observed” some things. Joan C Williams “finds” some stuff. “Studies” “Demonstrate” something, Joyce K. Flecher noted something.
and then we have this bomb. “An analysis of 183 different studies spanning 15 countries and dozens of occupations women were significantly more likely to feel emotionally exhausted”. Talk about a watered down bunch of, "data" to reach a conclusion that is subjective. When were these studies done? That is a very important and relative question. By whom? How large were the test groups? The suggestion here is that because they have come up with such a huge number of studies that what they get to interpret out of them is a fact now. Who analyzed the studies?
All this stuff kinda sorta looks like data. But I’m definitely going to stand by my word choice.
Distortion.
The only woman in this article that is mentioned in reference to a study is Madeline Heilman. From what I’ve seen, her entire career is centered around this bias. Women in the workplace. All articles of note from her bio on NYU deal with this one isolated subject. Her last article appears to be published in 2007. Now I have no idea what study they are refering too in this article because it is not sited but either way it looks like we are talking really old news here.
The rest of “data” from the “experts”.
Rosabeth Moss Kanter “Observed” some things. Joan C Williams “finds” some stuff. “Studies” “Demonstrate” something, Joyce K. Flecher noted something.
and then we have this bomb. “An analysis of 183 different studies spanning 15 countries and dozens of occupations women were significantly more likely to feel emotionally exhausted”. Talk about a watered down bunch of, "data" to reach a conclusion that is subjective. When were these studies done? That is a very important and relative question. By whom? How large were the test groups? The suggestion here is that because they have come up with such a huge number of studies that what they get to interpret out of them is a fact now. Who analyzed the studies?
All this stuff kinda sorta looks like data. But I’m definitely going to stand by my word choice.
Distortion.
8
Yes, I have had the experience of being interrupted in meetings. But the worst thing that ever happened to me at work - a new supervisor taking full credit for an important report I had written just before she came on - was done to me by a woman.
17
Many men support unconditionally gender equality, but there is still a point of having a woman president -- a woman with proven record of fighting for equality.
2
Sheryl Sandberg, CEO, again in complaint mode about how there's less women in top jobs then men. Well, there's also a lot less women than men in the lousy and dangerous jobs too. Sanitation worker, police officer, power company lineman, combat soldier, and chemical plant worker are a few that immediately come to mind.
Rather than be critical of men, perhaps Ms. Sandberg might want to realize her own success is as a top executive not in a substantial and productive industry, but in another stereotypical bastion of women...gossiping.
Rather than be critical of men, perhaps Ms. Sandberg might want to realize her own success is as a top executive not in a substantial and productive industry, but in another stereotypical bastion of women...gossiping.
5
Most people posting attacks on Sandberg appear to have forgotten to read the article, whichmis not about the number of women in top positions, and is based on data, not gossip.
18
I find these articles pointless. They simply summarize all the frustrating things which women experience all day, every day at work. What's new about that? Do you think the huge majority of men who should take the content to heart actually bother to read this? No way. Only if some HR or other auxiliary non business critical person shoves it under their nose. What are the chances it will change their thinking of behavior? None. The younger men are no different. You're dreaming. This will never change unless you give women testosterone supplements and/or reduce men's testosterone and give them estrogen. Good effort but this is a biological issue which I don't see changing ever. There'll just be some gender washing. Their fundamental thinking and instincts won't change.
30
Thanks a lot for settling for this sort of thing. It's really helpful to other women to read your defeatist comments. I hope you're not anyone's "mentor."
21
Good ideas about group lunches for mentees, not endless individual meetings.
But what happened to the senior woman told to get the CEO a drink while junior men sat neaby?
Just curious...
But what happened to the senior woman told to get the CEO a drink while junior men sat neaby?
Just curious...
8
Thirteenth paragraph nails it - dump the rest...
When everyone in the room - or on the Polycom, if you still let folks call in is...
Following - as in learning, not ogling - your every move...
You're there...
Save the rest for a Vogue cover...
PS - everyone gets it backward...
If they're following - you're leading...
Not the other way around...
ttyl...
When everyone in the room - or on the Polycom, if you still let folks call in is...
Following - as in learning, not ogling - your every move...
You're there...
Save the rest for a Vogue cover...
PS - everyone gets it backward...
If they're following - you're leading...
Not the other way around...
ttyl...
1
Years ago I was a rising star in a corporation. I had made connections with other women at higher levels. Evidently my Vice President at a meeting on his turf sensing a bypass kept interrupting and assigning me to get coffee and other small unnecessary tasks. Like a balloon deflating, I saw my recognition collapse among the managers at the higher levels after being treated in such a menial manner. I was a top level employee doing the work of two. Unfortunately I became ill shortly thereafter due to stress.
21
Even in this article, the guy gets top billing. Pity.
4
This! I too loathe those sexist style guidelines that dictate that authors names should be listed alphabetically by surname. Blast them!!
6
I think Deborah Tannen said it best: "Men see life as a hierarchy of power; Women see it as network of relationships".
14
Through my career experience, I have observed that women are more often personally attached to the outcome of events, gifts... and therefore more likely to volunteer or orchestrate the details. If you can let go, my suggestion is to more often play the visionary and champion role, but delegate the execution. Then praise, praise, praise - even if it is not what you "could have" produced.
4
The days of the Inklings are over?
I don't know what meetings you're going to, but in mine, the men can't get in a word edgewise, and don't even care to bother. Their attitude: let the women do the work!
2
This starts long before entering the work force or professional life. As early as preschool, girls are rewarded for fitting in and shunned for disobedience, while boys' behavior is shrugged off as something that comes naturally, unless they are actually cooperative and sweet, in which case the other boys rough them up. It continues throughout school and, in most cases, college, where women are vastly more rewarded for their obedience than for original ideas.
12
So if you're a woman, you either 'help' - and get pegged as a sort of servant - or don't rush to do the Sacred Coffee Ritual, and get labeled a 'non-team player. In other words, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, unless you've got special connections, like Mme Sandburg here. Having her tell ordinary female mortals how to get ahead in the business world is rather like expecting Queen Elizabeth II to write a book explaining how to be born into royalty. At least Her Majesty has the decorum and good sense to never go near such ridiculousness.
10
"For staying late and helping, a man was rated 14 percent more favorably than a woman."
This "14 percent" is a bogus statistic. Favorably rated is not an arithmetically quantifiable material thing, nor are all favorable ratings equal or numerable in any useful way.
The most you could hope for might be "14% more people" (if you had an identified sample) "rated women favorably." It would have little meaning with any sample, and one with most, but at least it would be a less glaring advertisement of your mathematical fraudulence.
-dlj.
This "14 percent" is a bogus statistic. Favorably rated is not an arithmetically quantifiable material thing, nor are all favorable ratings equal or numerable in any useful way.
The most you could hope for might be "14% more people" (if you had an identified sample) "rated women favorably." It would have little meaning with any sample, and one with most, but at least it would be a less glaring advertisement of your mathematical fraudulence.
-dlj.
4
Maybe it's a greater issue for people in my career (technology), but there is more real misogyny out there than this article addresses, and the misogyny is part of the problem behind how negative stereotyping works, especially in its form as a social phenomenon. Yes, when people are told that a stereotype is common they will be more likely to agree with the stereotype. Little recognized, however, is how one or two misogynists in an organization can create a rumor about the organization's women that "goes viral". One of the most common stereotypes that goes viral is that the organization has women in various positions only because of "affirmative action", and that affirmative action will also result in the women being promoted unfairly. Unfair, of course, because most men don't have "affirmation action" behind them.
So there is a very clear "affirmative action backlash" mostly by conservative guys that winds up discouraging other guys from ever being caught supporting a woman (unless she is amazing in every way, including good looks, in which case supporting her gets "nod, nod, wink, wink" responses). To back a woman that the organization's tough guys don't support is to be disloyal to the men's club.
So there is a very clear "affirmative action backlash" mostly by conservative guys that winds up discouraging other guys from ever being caught supporting a woman (unless she is amazing in every way, including good looks, in which case supporting her gets "nod, nod, wink, wink" responses). To back a woman that the organization's tough guys don't support is to be disloyal to the men's club.
17
I believe it starts with the leadership team showing a spirit of teamwork in the office environment, so there are both men and women always stepping up to help with office housework when needed.
3
Most workplaces could use a little more "giving and caring." So, instead of urging women to do less of these things, we should be urging men to do more. It is disappointing and perplexing to me that Adam Grant, the author of the excellent "Give and Take: Why Helping Others Drives Our Success," is encouraging women to become more selfish. There's already plenty of that out there and it isn't doing our economy any good.
7
I have found the same is true in marriage where the woman may be the male-appointed CEO but is treated like the "little woman" when it comes to making "executive" decisions. I don't miss being married.
10
There is a minefield women have to negotiate (as do men) as to their position in the workplace and sadly in some cases they are fighting not only the perception of the male dominated organization but themselves. That said, women are making progress in understanding themselves in the workplace and how to jump the hurdles.
http://www.coactivedreams.com/womens-self-promotion-dilemma/
http://www.coactivedreams.com/womens-self-promotion-dilemma/
2
If gentle persuasion works in changing ingrained, gender-specific behaviors, then this editorial will have great effects on workplace behavior. We could put small, motion-activated displays in various places around corporate and business workplaces, similar to the advertising displays in Wal-mart and other retail stores which have attractive people (usually women) looking directly into the camera while telling us about brand-name fabric softeners.
In gentle tones, either Ms. Sandberg, or Mr. Grant, could appear on a small screen after we walked by the coffee maker, reminding us while in the work place to be fair-minded and helpful by volunteering to do our fair share of 'office housework', which would be defined and examples of it given, such as cleaning the coffee machine before the end of the day, and keeping the coffee supplies filled up.
In the corporate board room, these displays could remind executives to have subordinates do menial tasks for them, NOT women and people of color who are equal, or nearly equal to them in corporate status.
Within a few weeks, these workplaces would be much better places to work. It would either be that, or mysteriously, these voice-activated displays would begin to malfunction, or be vandalized.
4
Thanks to all the men here offering "advice" to women in the workplace, particularly the "you should have played sports to learn about teamwork" and the "my boss is a woman so therefore gender bias doesn't exist" variety.
17
Ms. Sandberg should really get a clue. It's 2015 not 1982. Woman are in many management and leadership roles today. What world is she living in? I see woman who are bosses and running the show. Frankly I would take a woman boss or colleague over a man. Most woman work harder and are more competent than men. That is a fact.
About 40 years ago I went to perform a temp secretatial job and the head secretary asked me if I minded serving the men coffee. which I declined to do. About 20 years ago when I was working as an internal telecom project planner I showed up for a project meeting with a a new client and the dept was also expecting a temp secretary. Of course, they thought that I was the secretary. Things never change.
9
Companies talk about teamwork but in reality reward individual contributions. Men are statistically better at understanding this "white lie" (after all, it is mainly men saying this mantra) and therefore focus their energies on their individual contributions.
3
By default, nobody wants to be seen as the helper because then they can't be the alpha. So when I'm in charge, I make sure everyone knows that the process includes taking turns at note-taking, running meetings, along with leadership duties such as resource allocation. There's always an initial push-back: "I don't know how to schedule a meeting." "I'm not good at taking notes." But eventually fairness and the comfort of a routine wins out.
75
Good work, Connie; I wish every manager did this.
7
I think quite often men are not aware of these biases which can be more subtle than asking for coffee. Articles like this bring awareness (if men read them) to the behavior and enlightened males will make more of an effort to avoid them. I am female and early in my career I was a junior professional in a male dominated department. My boss, (a male) would often invite a group out to lunch but I wasn't included. One day, I made a joke asking him if this was a boys only lunch or if could I come too. He looked surprised (I suspect because he didn't realize the bias), from then on I was invited with the group and it helped me in my career and with building relationships with boss and my peers.
118
I observed the pattern discussed in this piece early in my career, when I typically worked harder and longer than others in my work group, including additional assignments related to developing department policy manuals and preparing my boss for meetings with senior leadership.
I vividly recall returning to the office after eye surgery and, with a patch over my eye, staying late-- alone-- to develop yet another piece of office policy needed to comply with audit requirements.
While my work was commended, my efforts also came to be taken for granted. Gradually, the attitude of my boss and my peers came to be one of "Give it to her, she'll take care of it." As well, some of my peers became jealous of my success: backbiting and sabotage emerged to slow me down. I regret to say that the backbiting and sabotage were somewhat successful.
As a result, I started to put myself first, getting my work done effectively and efficiently, but curtailing the late hours and extra efforts unless absolutely necessary. While I can't blame all of my troubles on gender (some of it was a dysfunctional work group), gender definitely played a role. The assumption that I would take care of all emergencies and difficult internal compliance tasks was definitely related to the fact that I was a woman.
I vividly recall returning to the office after eye surgery and, with a patch over my eye, staying late-- alone-- to develop yet another piece of office policy needed to comply with audit requirements.
While my work was commended, my efforts also came to be taken for granted. Gradually, the attitude of my boss and my peers came to be one of "Give it to her, she'll take care of it." As well, some of my peers became jealous of my success: backbiting and sabotage emerged to slow me down. I regret to say that the backbiting and sabotage were somewhat successful.
As a result, I started to put myself first, getting my work done effectively and efficiently, but curtailing the late hours and extra efforts unless absolutely necessary. While I can't blame all of my troubles on gender (some of it was a dysfunctional work group), gender definitely played a role. The assumption that I would take care of all emergencies and difficult internal compliance tasks was definitely related to the fact that I was a woman.
29
I think Sandberg continues to offer sound advice for women (and men) working in Silicon Valley or other elite enclaves. Her advice, however, is clearly not intended for middle or low income American Women for whom navigating a corporate hierarchy is a complete abstraction.
21
I can honestly say that over the course of my career (finance), I've made it a point to not "volunteer" for housekeeping duties at work, or for anything else that might conjure up a sense of me being anything else besides my professional title. I've been promoted, praised and rewarded quite well; however, I always sensed, among my male colleagues, resentment. I endured some remarks and comments over the years; I guess I didn't fit their idea of a woman in the workplace. Their problem, not mine.
49
You have moved up the ranks and have been "promoted, praised and rewarded quite well" but you are a victim.
1
It might be enlightening to see these gender studies broken down by the introversion and extroversion personality type for both the men and the women. I say this because the Perception of nurturance vs. results-oriented may be related to perceptions of intro vs. extroversion.
4
I was on a deal as the senior lawyer at a major international law firm. One of the partners from the other side of the deal yelled "Hey girl" at me, waved some papers at me and said "go down and fetch my faxes." I looked at him, replied that I didn't work for him, I was running the deal from our side so I wasn't going to run his errands, and suggested that he find one of his own junior lawyers to do it. He quickly responded that "they're all men, they won't go, so you need to." This wasn't the 1950s; it was a little more than 10 years ago. A good number of men I've encountered in the workplace have the attitude that women are there for menial tasks in addition to their jobs (my boss, for example, has me schedule department meetings rather than his secretary). I'm not even sure they realize what they're doing (obviously the man in the first example does, but it's generally much more subtle than that). The only answer I've found is to consistently and firmly push back where possible and appropriate.
49
In regards to the board room scenario where the Chairman asked the high-ranking female executive to get him a soda, why didn't the female executive simply turn to her more junior associates and say: "please, fetch me a soda, and oh, get one for the Chairman, while your at it". And then this could continue down the chain until the most junior person at the meeting goes and gets everyone a soda.
20
Here is an option: "Maybe it's time for a soda break and we can all help ourselves."
4
Here are some of things I experienced in various jobs in my 30s. Note: I have a PhD from an elite school, speak six languages, and had already won several awards in my field.
1) In a small nonprofit, I once found myself the only woman in a meeting with three colleagues and our boss, all male. All but two were below me in rank, as I had a 'Director" title. The boss, a liberal progressive type, turned to me and said: "Someone should take notes. Can you do it?" Was the guy whose title was "Assistant" suddenly handicapped? I just stared. Another colleague, also a Director, whipped out a pad and said, "I'll do it," and said later he was shocked that I was treated that way.
2) Working in a large corporation as a newer hire, I learned things fast and often finished my work early. So I offered to do more work. My boss, who was my own age: "You can't possibly be done already." Me: "I am." He looks the work over, says it's really very good, but won't give me more work. I go to a different supervisor (we had many) and ask for the same thing. The guy stares at me uncomprehendingly, then smiles and says: "You're like racehorse who wants to run, but hasn't yet been properly bridled and broken."
I told the Dept head. His take: "I see his point. You are sort of like a baby bird who wants to fly but isn't quite ready."
Right. I am a baby bird, age 32, standing 5'10" tall, holding a PhD in my little claws.
A man would never say such condescending, demeaning things to a man.
1) In a small nonprofit, I once found myself the only woman in a meeting with three colleagues and our boss, all male. All but two were below me in rank, as I had a 'Director" title. The boss, a liberal progressive type, turned to me and said: "Someone should take notes. Can you do it?" Was the guy whose title was "Assistant" suddenly handicapped? I just stared. Another colleague, also a Director, whipped out a pad and said, "I'll do it," and said later he was shocked that I was treated that way.
2) Working in a large corporation as a newer hire, I learned things fast and often finished my work early. So I offered to do more work. My boss, who was my own age: "You can't possibly be done already." Me: "I am." He looks the work over, says it's really very good, but won't give me more work. I go to a different supervisor (we had many) and ask for the same thing. The guy stares at me uncomprehendingly, then smiles and says: "You're like racehorse who wants to run, but hasn't yet been properly bridled and broken."
I told the Dept head. His take: "I see his point. You are sort of like a baby bird who wants to fly but isn't quite ready."
Right. I am a baby bird, age 32, standing 5'10" tall, holding a PhD in my little claws.
A man would never say such condescending, demeaning things to a man.
166
Maybe a man would not say those things to a man. There seems to be a secret understanding among men, though, that one must not make a coworker look bad by being less lazy. They had to send a message that being that competent violates their work culture, so they slapped you down with some patronizing language.
12
I'm afraid they would. Also women would say such demeaning things to a man and women would say such things to women. All instances you'll encounter when you have to work for a living. Everyone has been a part of that chain at one time or another.
2
"A man would never say such condescending, demeaning things to a man."
Really? Are you sure about that? I think you underestimate the competition between men. That is what you are experiencing.
Really? Are you sure about that? I think you underestimate the competition between men. That is what you are experiencing.
1
Social and cultural customs shift at a snail’s pace. No rational person in our society is going to rail against equal pay for equal work, equal treatment and expectations and recognition for all employees, however, most of our work places are not democratic and pretty far from being perfectly equitable. As many have moved beyond the civil rights movement since Obama’s presidency, I am still struck by that fact that according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, White women on average earn weekly wages of $712 compared to Black men’s average weekly wages of $633, Black women’s were $590 and White men’s were $854.
No rational person in our society believes that any type of person is inherently predisposed to higher levels of achievement than any other person, and yet look at the wage disparity above. Those at the higher end of the wage scale, above, are just less likely to see or to want to see the true worth of those in the lower rungs.
No rational person in our society believes that any type of person is inherently predisposed to higher levels of achievement than any other person, and yet look at the wage disparity above. Those at the higher end of the wage scale, above, are just less likely to see or to want to see the true worth of those in the lower rungs.
11
Are women still speaking “in a different voice”? Because it’s evidently not working as well.
2
Let me first say how much I love my employer. I would just also note that between my boss (who is a woman), and her boss (who is a woman), and her CEO (who is a woman), there isn't "really" a process in place for me and my team-mates to get promoted. And it's not based on gender; it's based on a quota system of how the promotions get distributed around the department. Now if I wanted to, I could say, "gee whiz, every time I work hard and stay late, my hard work isn't being recognized." But I suppose that wouldn't be very manly of me, now would it?
4
Sounds like you are gratuitously taking out your frustration about your difficult work situation on women with a legitimate beef. Recognize that your "speaking up" is viewed differently then a woman's. Don't you get that?
5
It's easy, as a more "junior" person, to write off requests like note-taking, general cat-herding, committee-serving, and meeting-planning as part of the job, even though it might not be. Especially when you find yourself doing more of it than your male counterparts--even if it's a complimentary expectation ("we assume she'd be a better listener and thus note-taker").
3
This was the story of my life. I did the bulk of the work, did the bulk of the "sensitive" things (e.g., talking to difficult customers and reassuring them that we would solve their issues--and did, sending out sympathy cards to employees and their family members, etc.), and yet, I knew that they wanted a man for the job. They started to take responsibilities away from me, exclude me from meetings, and blame me for everything that went wrong (mainly because I hadn't been at the meetings at which complicated things were discussed). So when I decided to retire, the big boss said, "Well, you know, I've always liked you as a person..." That means that the "sensitive" work I did was something that he liked but he didn't like anything else I did, so he was finally free to hire a man for the job. And he did. I am so better off in retirement! And the young women entering the workforce now--they think they have it better, because us baby boomers fought for them all those years ago? Think again...
14
Try being involved in a local political party. It's still a very male environment. The guys drink coffee, but don't seem to notice the coffee mugs in the sink. The Hillary 2008 campaign in Pennsylvania had plenty of female volunteers who supplied food during late nights of calling Every PA Democrat and his sister. Male volunteers MIGHT call for pizza or spot someone on the staff money for lunch/dinner, but not often. I've also noticed a lot of women tidy the campaign office, men tend to do that only at the end of the night. But everyone makes phone calls and enters data. Lots of people knock on doors.
6
Women help more but benefit less from it is exactly due to natural evolution demand of the most exacting demand from being CEO of a business that never ever shuts down:running of a household. It does not matter for even for women with extremely supportive husbands, doing more than their share of cooking and household cleaning.
One cannot run away from the fact though women have made great strides in the past few decades, they are enrolling in law and medical schools in equal - even greater - numbers compared with men. Yes, they are travelling the world, and joining fighting forces, have property, voting, marriage and employment rights. But they still face one final obstacle: how to combine a career with child rearing.
Pepsico CEO Indra Nooyi says http://www.forbes.com/sites/moiraforbes/2014/07/03/power-woman-indra-noo... " I don’t think women can have it all.. We pretend we have it all....every day you have to make a decision about whether you are going to be a wife or a mother... Just as you’re rising to middle management your kids need you because they’re teenagers, they need you for the teenage years. And that’s the time your husband becomes a teenager too, so he needs you. They need you too.. as you grow even more, your parents need you because they’re aging. ... Train people at work.. your family to be your extended family…. Being a CEO for a company is three full time jobs rolled into one. How can you do justice to all? You can’t."
One cannot run away from the fact though women have made great strides in the past few decades, they are enrolling in law and medical schools in equal - even greater - numbers compared with men. Yes, they are travelling the world, and joining fighting forces, have property, voting, marriage and employment rights. But they still face one final obstacle: how to combine a career with child rearing.
Pepsico CEO Indra Nooyi says http://www.forbes.com/sites/moiraforbes/2014/07/03/power-woman-indra-noo... " I don’t think women can have it all.. We pretend we have it all....every day you have to make a decision about whether you are going to be a wife or a mother... Just as you’re rising to middle management your kids need you because they’re teenagers, they need you for the teenage years. And that’s the time your husband becomes a teenager too, so he needs you. They need you too.. as you grow even more, your parents need you because they’re aging. ... Train people at work.. your family to be your extended family…. Being a CEO for a company is three full time jobs rolled into one. How can you do justice to all? You can’t."
2
Thank you so much for this series. Any woman at work knows these factors are at play. Yet revolutionary feminism is still considered by many (men and women) to be antiquated and unnecessary. It's depressing and frustrating.
40
And once again, the predictable comments saying that sexism in the workplace can't possibly be true, because (anecdote) -- and if it is true, that women have only themselves to blame. And also, women are genetically different!
There are none so blind as those who wilfully refuse to see.
Here's the bottom line: if the woman doesn't get the coffee, she's gets a negative performance review. Read the studies on this stuff or please don't comment at all.
There are none so blind as those who wilfully refuse to see.
Here's the bottom line: if the woman doesn't get the coffee, she's gets a negative performance review. Read the studies on this stuff or please don't comment at all.
95
No one gets to the C-level positions through pure merit. It's a dog-eat-dog world. You want to be CEO, you better get their on your own power. This applies to men and women. This is not blaming women, it is empowering them. Step up!
3
It seems counter to the spirit here to insist that all participants should have done substantial outside research. Sure, there are a few comments here that seem chauvinistic or otherwise jerky. But the majority of comments are informed, and either counter only somewhat the authors' main points or support them entirely. Very few seem to be suggesting that sexism in the workplace has been totally eradicated. And the use of anecdotes seems equal from all perspectives, not to mention within the article itself. As a side note, I wish that the article had stuck with examples from the business world, since academia is a different animal and it's tough to discuss both simultaneously, IMO.
The reality of gender issues at work is more complicated than your comment suggests. And the need for an honest dialogue is not advanced by dealing in absolutes (deniers vs. advocates). There is no one-sentence bottom line here. If the woman says no, she might get a negative performance review, but she might get a big bump for toughness instead.
To your point of people saying women only have themselves to blame, the article itself gives examples of how women shifting priorities and/or making time management changes improved outcomes. Many comments seem to corroborate.
Many organizational changes the article suggests would benefit behind-the-scenes men as much as some women. And sometimes, the boss assigns the notes to the person (s)he knows will do the best job (says a guy who's been there).
The reality of gender issues at work is more complicated than your comment suggests. And the need for an honest dialogue is not advanced by dealing in absolutes (deniers vs. advocates). There is no one-sentence bottom line here. If the woman says no, she might get a negative performance review, but she might get a big bump for toughness instead.
To your point of people saying women only have themselves to blame, the article itself gives examples of how women shifting priorities and/or making time management changes improved outcomes. Many comments seem to corroborate.
Many organizational changes the article suggests would benefit behind-the-scenes men as much as some women. And sometimes, the boss assigns the notes to the person (s)he knows will do the best job (says a guy who's been there).
2
My experience leads me to believe that as long as women continue to do these things, they'll be expected to do so.
If they don't want to do them, then don't. So what if some people view you as selfish? Most men don't mind that, why should you?
These articles are really irritating. Want things to change? Then change them and stop looking to others to do it for you. Take a stand and stick to it.
If they don't want to do them, then don't. So what if some people view you as selfish? Most men don't mind that, why should you?
These articles are really irritating. Want things to change? Then change them and stop looking to others to do it for you. Take a stand and stick to it.
65
The article explicitly states that women are rated lower than their male counterparts if they don't perform the "helping" tasks. So if your "suggestion" is that women should simply accept that they are either stuck performing "helping" tasks or will be passed over for refusing to help, then you are describing the current state of affairs.
8
"So what if some people view you as selfish? Most men don't mind that, why should you?"
Because women are punished for asserting themselves. Another article said that negative performance reviews tend to include more personal criticisms.
Because women are punished for asserting themselves. Another article said that negative performance reviews tend to include more personal criticisms.
10
Apparently, you missed the point of the article which is that a man wouldn't be viewed as selfish at all. Women don't do these things because they want to do them or are conditioned to do them, but because they are expected to do them and are therefore evaluated by their willingness to do them.
10
It's not a coincidence that Richard Branson, a person who has written all his own rules for business success and doesn't need anyone to give him a job or promotion, was the man in the room comfortable doing the note-taking.
120
Years ago (1973) I started out with a large public accounting firm. This was before PCs and word processing. I could touch type like a speed demon but hid that ability until I was promoted to manager - five years. I had to write even the simplest stuff out longhand so someone else could type it. But I could not risk being thought of as anything other than an accounting professional.
Of course things have changed and everyone is expected to keyboard at least semi-competently. There has been a lot of other progress. But on my volunteer forays back into the world of work, I still see the some of the issues raised in the article.
Of course things have changed and everyone is expected to keyboard at least semi-competently. There has been a lot of other progress. But on my volunteer forays back into the world of work, I still see the some of the issues raised in the article.
21
Performing a routine, helpful task below your position level is fatal for a man's career. It is management's polite way of saying "Find another job". I'm a guy. I found another job.
4
Despite having two university degrees, I'm a receptionist...and yes, I AM good at what I do, yes, and I've been doing it now for over 20 years. So what? Executive types like Ms. Sandberg are less than 2% of women but yet they get all the doggone attention! I'm sick of that! We ALL work, not just the suits! Thing is the world DOES need helpers and "houseworkers." Nothing wrong with being a homemaker, or any traditional female job! The thing I greatly resent are the people who keep trying to force women into roles that many of us are NOT suited to! Like it or not, women ARE the nurturers and there is an honor and inherent dignity to that, too. The answer is NOT to make women be more like men, but to stand up and DEMAND that our contributions be respected as well no matter how "menial" some elitist may think it is!
15
Three words: Party. Planning. Committee. (I try to say no whenever I can, but in a really sweet, apologetic way.)
21
Women: * How many times have you been in a meeting & identified a solution that was ignored, only to have a man present the SAME solution later & get lauded for it?
Women: How many times have you voiced an opinion about a problem or solution, been ignored, and then seen a man voice the same information and get lauded for it?
I have worked in IT since the 80's when I graduated college with a Computer Science degree. Back in the old days, I was ALWAYS the only woman on the team, but often the LEAD because of my skills/experience in a quick-changing field of IT.
EVERY TIME I asked for a promotion or raise it was a battle and I left each firm for a better offer, while men junior to me had been promoted because they could "hang" with the big boys and laugh like tweens at the CEO's mysogenist jokes. I didn't know I had to be an actor too, and pretend that juvenile, demeaning jokes were funny just to further my career.
Ultimately I started my own IT consulting business while raising 2 kids. My husband travelled internationally with his job.
If I'd noticed these "men" were just very large 9 year olds (emotionally), I would have understood what was happening, but I didn't identify them as such until I had my own 9-year olds at home, laughing about farts and poop and boobies.
Women: How many times have you voiced an opinion about a problem or solution, been ignored, and then seen a man voice the same information and get lauded for it?
I have worked in IT since the 80's when I graduated college with a Computer Science degree. Back in the old days, I was ALWAYS the only woman on the team, but often the LEAD because of my skills/experience in a quick-changing field of IT.
EVERY TIME I asked for a promotion or raise it was a battle and I left each firm for a better offer, while men junior to me had been promoted because they could "hang" with the big boys and laugh like tweens at the CEO's mysogenist jokes. I didn't know I had to be an actor too, and pretend that juvenile, demeaning jokes were funny just to further my career.
Ultimately I started my own IT consulting business while raising 2 kids. My husband travelled internationally with his job.
If I'd noticed these "men" were just very large 9 year olds (emotionally), I would have understood what was happening, but I didn't identify them as such until I had my own 9-year olds at home, laughing about farts and poop and boobies.
174
This nails it. Sigh.
4
When a man does the HR/softer employee management work, he is "managing" (i.e., highly compensated) When a woman does the same thing, it is HR (poorly compensated).
This problem is imminently solvable. Professional women, just don't do the HR type things and start doing more revenue generating work. A man will step into the HR role, and voila, it will become a far more valued and well-compensated task, with the man becoming more sensitive to other employees in the process. Everyone wins.
Trust me, I've done this myself. It honestly works. Follow the money.
This problem is imminently solvable. Professional women, just don't do the HR type things and start doing more revenue generating work. A man will step into the HR role, and voila, it will become a far more valued and well-compensated task, with the man becoming more sensitive to other employees in the process. Everyone wins.
Trust me, I've done this myself. It honestly works. Follow the money.
17
I actually AM giving and caring, as I suspect many women in the workplace are. So, when it comes to helping others, I'm not looking for a payoff in terms of a promotion or more money. If I like the people around me, if I like the project I'm working on, yes, I'll do "office housework" to contribute to our efforts. When I was CEO of a small, publicly-held medical technology company, I OFTEN went to get the coffee because, well, I wanted to! That's how my Mom and Dad brought me up. To refrain from doing what comes naturally to me for fear of being perceived as somehow servile -- that would be a disservice to my own integrity.
I don't expect I would like Ms. Sandberg if I met her. She seems to spend a fair amount of time trying to change people around her to be more in her image. I don't want to "lean in" more. I'm a grown-up and I get to decide how much I want to "lean in" and whether I'm being exploited for my kindness and willingness to help. Why does Ms. Sandberg get so much ink and airtime on these subjects?
I don't expect I would like Ms. Sandberg if I met her. She seems to spend a fair amount of time trying to change people around her to be more in her image. I don't want to "lean in" more. I'm a grown-up and I get to decide how much I want to "lean in" and whether I'm being exploited for my kindness and willingness to help. Why does Ms. Sandberg get so much ink and airtime on these subjects?
15
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that because you enjoy the "office housework," all women should volunteer or accept that they will be rated less favorably than their male counterparts?
6
You learned a strong service ethic at home, though - it's not an inherent quality you possess because you also possess lady-bits. Big, big difference.
3
I reject most of these articles which describe the rough row to hoe that women allegedly endure in the workplace. I've been a practicing lawyer for 26 years in a litigation law firm. My best friends in the office have typically been female colleagues, but I believe (and some of them admit) that they get many breaks that males don't get. They are given much more flexibility in their arrival times, ostensibly due to childcare issues. (I also have childcare issues.) Even the most aggressive opposing attorneys are typically better behaved with female counterparts--they palpably hold punches they would deliver in a frenzy against me or most male attorneys. Judges also give them much more deference. There is, in general, just much less inclination to "rip in to" a female--both from female and male judges and attorneys. They are treated in a "kinder and gentler" way. The female attorneys in my office are also given job-sharing options and many other enhanced alternatives. even case assignments seem to vary: most of the worst cases go to the males, the frilly stuff goes to the females (granted, there are some exceptions).
And, on tope of that, there is the percentage of females that play the "wiggle and giggle" card. True, the more substantive females notice and despise this the most, but you do not find any males doing the cutesy act to establish rapport.
So, actually, I think the workplace bias runs the other way.
And, on tope of that, there is the percentage of females that play the "wiggle and giggle" card. True, the more substantive females notice and despise this the most, but you do not find any males doing the cutesy act to establish rapport.
So, actually, I think the workplace bias runs the other way.
8
Oh you poor man. Let's make it all about you again. There, there.
15
So some of your best friends are women?
19
Why do articles about women (in the workplace, in society, etc) invariably invite responses from competitive commenters pointing out that men have issues too? This is about equality. It wasn't long ago that women were systematically excluded from a number of professions, as well as from leadership positions. We as a society are still trying to right that. (One of the reasons women get "special treatment" to arrive late because of childcare issues is because they continue to be disproportionately expected to be the primary caregivers, even with fulltime jobs.) Of course there are some biases against men, but even some of this has to do with outdated and sexist notions about women. Undoing the prejudice against women that has pervaded our culture for generations will require effort on both genders. Again, this is about supporting equality.
16
As much as articles with concerns about women's welfare are crucial, I am seeing a hugely disproportionate number of such articles as compared with the number of articles with concerns about men's welfare.
Despite the fact that many more men than women are incarcerated, on average men die about seven years earlier than women, and there are about 50% more women in college than men.
I'd like to see concern about all humans, not just half of them.
Despite the fact that many more men than women are incarcerated, on average men die about seven years earlier than women, and there are about 50% more women in college than men.
I'd like to see concern about all humans, not just half of them.
6
Income and wealth are still concentrated in the pockets and bank accounts of men.
46
In drug testing, women were left out of studies because their hormones were "too complex" to study. Your comment reminds me of a man who complained that too much was made of this. He said women had gynecologists, we shouldn't complain. Men had no male centric medical advice. He ignored that the ENTIRE medical system is geared to men's health. Modern medicine IS male specialized.
Boo Hoo that so many men end up in jail, especially when you consider that women are routinely sentenced more harshly for committing the same crime. If you can't do the time don't do the crime.
Boo Hoo that so many men end up in jail, especially when you consider that women are routinely sentenced more harshly for committing the same crime. If you can't do the time don't do the crime.
13
This article isn't so much about welfare as contribution. The fact that it's seen as a welfare column instead of how to create stronger, more successful organizations is exactly the point.
7
Hello, people, Amy Pascal's career at Sony didn't end because she didn't get coffee for everyone. There are business reasons for men and women not getting promoted. If you can stop North Korea from hacking you, no one will care if you're a boy or a girl. Make a real contribution, make the company money, get more clients, solve problems, learn IT issues, whatever. Anthem isn't worried about coffee right now. There are bigger concerns. Just realize that Radio Shack didn't make it because the boys and girls didn't get along. People stopped buying that way. Stop blaming business issues on gender. Just make your company win. Example A: Teresa Sullivan of the University of Virginia.
10
This does not even deserve an answer.
35
CEOs do not stop hackers. Full stop.
6
Maybe Radio Shack is the point. Do you think there weren't people inside Radio Shack who could have saved it? We sure know which ones got heard.
4
Cheryl Sandberg shows strength of character, intelligence, and vision for using her high status and pubic persona as a platform for the issues she addresses. The USA worships winners, and systematically disparages all others. But the perspective of those who reach the top of their professions is typically all about themselves. They enjoy describing what they do in terms of passion, engagement, intelligence, or as if it were a sport. Winners like to think of themselves as superior, special, deserving of their success; and they do not dissent from a climate of opinion which regards all others as somehow lesser. Sandberg has not been taken in by the cult of the Self which is the prevailing religion among America's elite. She is saying something very important here: the world of work is unfair, and does not equably reward effort and accomplishment. And she is saying this from her position as a winner, inviting us to consider the possibility that others who say this should not be disregarded as inferior, misinformed, or unsuitable; that instead, they are raising valid issues, and deserve to be taken seriously. Ms. Sandberg deserves thanks here, not the carping, mingy tone of so many of these comments.
44
She's saying this as someone born with more privilege than anyone you or I have ever met.
8
So what? Is that a reason to devalue what she says? In this article, she is collaborating with a labor economist on the faculty at the Wharton School. She is substantiating her claims with leading-edge research on the subject. Because she is famous, people pay attention to what she says. Is there anything wrong here?
19
If you do not think your time is worth anything, why should anyone else?
Women create this perception themselves, by playing Office Mom and treating the office like their home and their coworkers like their family.
Most companies are understaffed and have been so for years, if not a decade. People are very busy and the reaction to the person, always a woman, bringing around yet another card to be signed and money to be given for the life event of an employee that most of us do not even know is most assuredly not one of happiness.
Women, just stop it and do the job you were hired to do.
Women create this perception themselves, by playing Office Mom and treating the office like their home and their coworkers like their family.
Most companies are understaffed and have been so for years, if not a decade. People are very busy and the reaction to the person, always a woman, bringing around yet another card to be signed and money to be given for the life event of an employee that most of us do not even know is most assuredly not one of happiness.
Women, just stop it and do the job you were hired to do.
28
Interesting. In my 2 jobs for the past 10 years, I've only seen men do that. And, true to the spirit of the article, I admit I probably gave them more kudos just because they were just being dads. That just speaks to the diminished expectations I have.
In fact in 30 years of working in technical professional areas, I can give you many more examples of men that just get carried. In fact, I have had several significant assignments to specifically clean up after or do the work some man wouldn't do. One of my EGMs told me he'd only have women engineers if he could after another group meeting where the men all had excuses and the women reported progress. The galling thing is, they weren't even embarrassed.
I could go and on, but really, who cares?
In fact in 30 years of working in technical professional areas, I can give you many more examples of men that just get carried. In fact, I have had several significant assignments to specifically clean up after or do the work some man wouldn't do. One of my EGMs told me he'd only have women engineers if he could after another group meeting where the men all had excuses and the women reported progress. The galling thing is, they weren't even embarrassed.
I could go and on, but really, who cares?
7
As a mother of two girls, I notice the imbalance in expectations between boys and girls all the time. On the surface, schools have tried to level the playing field and provide girls wih opportunities equal to boys. However, we place outsized expectations on girls that may distract, burden - take your pick - them from achieving "success." For example, one coding class geared exclusively towards girls states that the class "is not just about the code; it’s about making the world a better place—finding innovative solutions to help others in our local communities and beyond our borders." It is not enough to cultivate girl coders. What a heavy burden they bear.
71
But isn't that part of the thinking that will help girls assume leadership: the desire to change things on a bigger level. Not every girl is going to want to "rule the world" nor every boy for that matter. However, make no mistake about it rising to become a leader outside of having a powerful relative requires dealing with pressure. Women do this all the time in terms of juggling family and work so why not on a grander scale?
3
@BrooklynMom - we need to encourage girl coders to learn how to translate their High C Kool aide code moxie into the workplace. It is not enough to read a book about coding, in order for girls to become CEOs or business owners, they need to learn how to walk the talk which can only be accomplished by playing tough on the blacktop as well as achieving success in the AP class.
6
The sad reality inside and outside of the work place - benevolent sexism reigns.
From the 2012 Aurora Colorado theater shooting.
"Jon Blunk was at the movie with his girlfriend, Jansen Young, who told the “Today” show.....“Jon just took a bullet for me,” (He died saving his girlfriend).
"Matthew Robert McQuinn, 27, died shielding his longtime girlfriend, Samantha Yowler".
Not bad in exchange for fetching a cup of coffee and tiding up the tea room!
From the 2012 Aurora Colorado theater shooting.
"Jon Blunk was at the movie with his girlfriend, Jansen Young, who told the “Today” show.....“Jon just took a bullet for me,” (He died saving his girlfriend).
"Matthew Robert McQuinn, 27, died shielding his longtime girlfriend, Samantha Yowler".
Not bad in exchange for fetching a cup of coffee and tiding up the tea room!
25
Benevolent? Really for the the pay men get. So what if your children are hungry.
11
How are these two situations comparable? How can you possibly equate dying while protecting someone you love with a request for a senior member of your team to fetch you a refreshment? (And there were certainly examples in Aurora of people (including men) running for dear life while leaving their loved ones behind, so your example doesn't hold any water to paint the entire male species as protectors of others.) And why would you consider the attitude "benevolent"? Do you even understand the word? Sexism is sexism, despite your attempt to gussy it up with inappropriate adjectives.
35
What? I have to hope one day a coworker takes a bullet for me so we can call it even? Wow, I used to hope I was never involved in a mass shooting, but now I guess I need to hope for one at the office so the men will finally get their chance to step up.
(And why is this a Times Pick?)
(And why is this a Times Pick?)
44
The person who takes notes/minutes at meetings controls the memory of the organization.
109
This brings back the time I was hired to be a Girl Friday for 14 professional staff members, and my supervisor threw his arms up in the air, telling me that the last Temp had disappeared without an explanation. It took me less than three hours to figure it out. 'Guess what? I called a friend and colleague in another department, 'I'm leaving'...big mistake that they didn't give you a promotion because we're in trouble here, and I knew this was going to happen'.
On day one at 8:15 a.m. just as I sat at my desk, I was whisked away by a professional man to take minutes at an important Water conference, with a gathering of agencies from all over the world. 'But, wait, I've never taken minutes before!', but was reassured that everything would be just fine. The participants all sat at the largest table in corporate history, and introductions were made pleasantly. 'I'm here to provide you with Water (ha. ha.) and wonder if you would all be kind enough to write some notes of your own during this meeting, so that I am able to place this into a helpful presentation for you afterwards'.
If I mention this less than laudable experience, it is because 'At nyc' is correct in stating that the one responsible for taking minutes has a heavy responsibility when representing the input of an organization or firm.
On day one at 8:15 a.m. just as I sat at my desk, I was whisked away by a professional man to take minutes at an important Water conference, with a gathering of agencies from all over the world. 'But, wait, I've never taken minutes before!', but was reassured that everything would be just fine. The participants all sat at the largest table in corporate history, and introductions were made pleasantly. 'I'm here to provide you with Water (ha. ha.) and wonder if you would all be kind enough to write some notes of your own during this meeting, so that I am able to place this into a helpful presentation for you afterwards'.
If I mention this less than laudable experience, it is because 'At nyc' is correct in stating that the one responsible for taking minutes has a heavy responsibility when representing the input of an organization or firm.
1
I agree. I had the most power when I did the minutes for the Management Team. I still miss that job.
Good point. The women taking the minutes should sabotage the men at the meeting.
2
Isn't this article a bit like blaming rape victims for being raped? Why blame women for behaviors which are often required of them at work? Maybe it's time to blame those organizational development consultants and members of the executive leadership teams for not noticing dynamics like these and bring them up for discussion?
333
I hear what you're saying about blaming the victims instead of the perpetrators, but I think if we spend our time blaming everybody else, our focus is on them and not on us. Chauvenism is disgusting beyond description and I believe we should always remember that and always hold whoever engages in it accountable. Always.
AND at the same time we need to face the uncomfortable truth that as women who are over-ridden the onus is on us to find our power, learn why we let ourselves be over-ridden, face our fears, face the unspoken threats that pretty much terrify us into submission. We have to develop better self esteem and entitlement and life skills.
It's not about blaming ourselves and letting them off the hook, it's about holding them accountable AND giving ourselves attention. That's how I see it, anyway.
AND at the same time we need to face the uncomfortable truth that as women who are over-ridden the onus is on us to find our power, learn why we let ourselves be over-ridden, face our fears, face the unspoken threats that pretty much terrify us into submission. We have to develop better self esteem and entitlement and life skills.
It's not about blaming ourselves and letting them off the hook, it's about holding them accountable AND giving ourselves attention. That's how I see it, anyway.
5
This is nicely written, but what it really amount to is, women would do better if they were more like men. Maybe it's the men who should change?
51
I am an introvert and I had the same problem when I started working. I had to force myself to be more extroverted and visible in order to get noticed. It's sad to know that the little things do NOT count.
20
I know, the plural of anecdotes is not data, but I'll take up the primary anecdote in the article, anyway. So when the female manager in question worked inefficiently and failed to communicate reasonable expectations to clients, she was not promoted to partner. But after she improved on those necessary skills, she was promoted. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
As for, men can use their voices to highlight women's contributions, is that really the paternalistic solution we're striving for? Women are perfectly capable of figuring out how to turn hard work into success themselves. It's articles like these where women are portrayed as fundamentally disadvantaged and in need of male assistance that perpetuate the stereotypes. I will work hard to ensure that my own daughters will never buy into that kind of self indulgent pity.
As for, men can use their voices to highlight women's contributions, is that really the paternalistic solution we're striving for? Women are perfectly capable of figuring out how to turn hard work into success themselves. It's articles like these where women are portrayed as fundamentally disadvantaged and in need of male assistance that perpetuate the stereotypes. I will work hard to ensure that my own daughters will never buy into that kind of self indulgent pity.
7
Peter- I hope your daughters are still in the womb. You need a lot of time to learn things before you can teach them.
I was very upfront about my career path/needs at each company I worked at, in the field of IT (1980's) and was always told "when you accomplish this and that, you can be moved into sales" which is what I wanted. However, I wasn't given a chance at IT Sales because there was always a reason to promote someone else. One particularly frank boss (VP Sales) in the 90's told me "the clients we have will see you as their daughter or niece, not a serious technical sales person" so they left incompetent-drunk-sales-guy employed (hadn't sold squat in 12 months) until another man could be found to take his place (A GUY on the 800 help line!!). I wanted to go into sales because I knew I would succeed & that's where the $ was!
My guy friends with the same degree and career experience who got into sales back then made squillions of dollars (good timing with IT on the rise) at Cisco, Oracle, HP, Microsoft, while I was locked out of that arena simply because of my gender.
Changed my whole life (financially) because I couldn't "create" that opportunity for myself. (sure, I'll just start the next ORACLE and then hire myself as a sales person...)
If you don't know stories like this, you must be blind. It's not self-indulgent pity that makes people disadvantaged, it's the people in charge who won't give you half the friggin chance they give some untrained guy.
I was very upfront about my career path/needs at each company I worked at, in the field of IT (1980's) and was always told "when you accomplish this and that, you can be moved into sales" which is what I wanted. However, I wasn't given a chance at IT Sales because there was always a reason to promote someone else. One particularly frank boss (VP Sales) in the 90's told me "the clients we have will see you as their daughter or niece, not a serious technical sales person" so they left incompetent-drunk-sales-guy employed (hadn't sold squat in 12 months) until another man could be found to take his place (A GUY on the 800 help line!!). I wanted to go into sales because I knew I would succeed & that's where the $ was!
My guy friends with the same degree and career experience who got into sales back then made squillions of dollars (good timing with IT on the rise) at Cisco, Oracle, HP, Microsoft, while I was locked out of that arena simply because of my gender.
Changed my whole life (financially) because I couldn't "create" that opportunity for myself. (sure, I'll just start the next ORACLE and then hire myself as a sales person...)
If you don't know stories like this, you must be blind. It's not self-indulgent pity that makes people disadvantaged, it's the people in charge who won't give you half the friggin chance they give some untrained guy.
33
It's an interesting reply because in my opinion it illustrates my point very well. "When you accomplish this and that, you can be moved into sales" is advice that's more suited to a classroom than to a corporation, and it supposes that we are dependent on our bosses to advance our careers, passively hoping they will be benevolent. I do not feel that promotions or new positions are favors that are bestowed upon us for being good sports. Someone will hire a person for a position because they have talents that can be used to make money. And if they don't seem to, they will not be hired. Many people and many men end up in situations where they feel stymied; certainly I have. In those situations, I think that the rational decision is to leave the company or the group and try to pursue your goals elsewhere or in another way.
Not that I'm likely to take the advice, but I'm curious what lesson you would have me teach my daughters based on the experience you described. Be good, frustrated girls, hope for the best and look over your cubicle walls in anger at all the opportunities you are missing out on because you are not a man?
Not that I'm likely to take the advice, but I'm curious what lesson you would have me teach my daughters based on the experience you described. Be good, frustrated girls, hope for the best and look over your cubicle walls in anger at all the opportunities you are missing out on because you are not a man?
Women have made a lot of progress in the last century but clearly we're still in the trenches fighting this war, world wide. Dig in.
18
As a female scientist who runs a medium-size, well-funded lab, experience tells me that we need a solution that is a bridge between employees and organizations. An organization needs to have people who enjoy helping others, who think communally, and want to organize the group, either for work or play, just as much as they need people to focus on their own projects and get the work done effectively. Employees need to be able to advance in their job. In our lab, which has a female-majority, everything is on a rotation basis, so nobody gets pigeon holed into always being the one to answer the phones or deal with problems. Everyone has a writing day, where they can't be disturbed. In work environments with more supervisors and employees who are women and gay and lesbian, there is less tolerance for pigeon holing individuals by gender stereotypes. Until organizations become more equality-minded, employees have the power to make deliberate decisions about where they want to work based on whether or not the organization makes direct efforts toward these goals.
32
This is absolute genius. You're obviously a proactive, forward-thinking person/group who has put the procedures in place to head problems off at the pass. Very admirable, very smart, very fair. By creating a level playing field in which everyone knows the "rules", your whole team is empowered and no one has to be the squeaky wheel. Employees aren't mind readers and you've saved yours a lot of headaches and miscommunication.
4
These articles really get to be tedious. And anecdotes supporting any point of view are endless. At bottom, you can't control what others believe, say or do. You can either accept what they do (or expect of you), ask them to change or ultimately leave a situation that is unfair or not to your liking. And regardless the circumstances, you can try to live with integrity and do to the best of your ability the right thing in the moment.
The only person you can change is yourself. Blaming and complaining provide a bit of needed therapy, perhaps. We're all seemingly victims of something. But the world will never adjust to us, we have to adjust to it as best we can. It always comes back to what we do or don't do. Waiting for the world to change to exactly our liking is just not going to happen. After many decades on the planet I'd sum it up this way: to the best of your ability make your own luck and shape your own life. You'll need some help now and then, we all do, but for the most part no one will do it for you.
The only person you can change is yourself. Blaming and complaining provide a bit of needed therapy, perhaps. We're all seemingly victims of something. But the world will never adjust to us, we have to adjust to it as best we can. It always comes back to what we do or don't do. Waiting for the world to change to exactly our liking is just not going to happen. After many decades on the planet I'd sum it up this way: to the best of your ability make your own luck and shape your own life. You'll need some help now and then, we all do, but for the most part no one will do it for you.
12
Never say never.
I for one don't see any "waiting" on the part of women, but rather a lot of doing all the way around. That includes response and voiced opinions on the issues. Why should we stay quiet?
I for one don't see any "waiting" on the part of women, but rather a lot of doing all the way around. That includes response and voiced opinions on the issues. Why should we stay quiet?
8
That is so not true. When I was a manager, I absolutely was accountable and influenced the behavior of my team. The unprofessional louts quickly found themselves out on the fringe, and then just out. Sounds cruel, but I got lots of organizational kudos for tough duty.
You can't change thoughts, but you can and should change behaviors within an organization. And, actions become habits and thoughts. If we're going to improve on the world stage, we have got to stop throwing away half our talent.
You can't change thoughts, but you can and should change behaviors within an organization. And, actions become habits and thoughts. If we're going to improve on the world stage, we have got to stop throwing away half our talent.
11
"Not long ago, a female senior executive we know was sitting at a board meeting next to several more junior male colleagues when the board chairman asked her to fetch him a soda."
Boy, does that bring back bitter memories of the corporate workplace! I worked at a publishing company in Boston's Back Bay. I was a senior manager. One bitter winter after a nor'easter dumped several feet of snow in the suburb where I live, I opted to work from home. The next day my boss (a woman) chewed me out for not having commuted in to pick up a birthday cake for a fellow employee. She said that she couldn't ask the only male in our group—a young man half my age and seniority—to do it because his time was too valuable. I quit a couple of months later and have happily worked as a freelance ever since.
Boy, does that bring back bitter memories of the corporate workplace! I worked at a publishing company in Boston's Back Bay. I was a senior manager. One bitter winter after a nor'easter dumped several feet of snow in the suburb where I live, I opted to work from home. The next day my boss (a woman) chewed me out for not having commuted in to pick up a birthday cake for a fellow employee. She said that she couldn't ask the only male in our group—a young man half my age and seniority—to do it because his time was too valuable. I quit a couple of months later and have happily worked as a freelance ever since.
118
I too decided to freelance. Only then could I do my best work without interference.
1
I teach a computer science class, and not a single one of the 13 students attending is female. Then this morning I had a discussion session to discuss research problems, and all the ones who attended were female.
What explains this? I have no idea.
The PC crowd wants to run our lives, and who knows maybe they will succeed. An administrative officer recently sent out an announcement that all the faculty and staff are forbidden to use "Mr" and "Ms" because these terms are sexist.
I see nothing wrong with a CEO getting coffee for others, and it makes no difference if the CEO is male or female. It is more likely of course is that the female will get you a coffee and the male will help shovel your driveway. But it is not an ironclad rule.
What explains this? I have no idea.
The PC crowd wants to run our lives, and who knows maybe they will succeed. An administrative officer recently sent out an announcement that all the faculty and staff are forbidden to use "Mr" and "Ms" because these terms are sexist.
I see nothing wrong with a CEO getting coffee for others, and it makes no difference if the CEO is male or female. It is more likely of course is that the female will get you a coffee and the male will help shovel your driveway. But it is not an ironclad rule.
6
R36 I agree with you on a few of your points ie: women are at times some of their worst enemies in terms of punishing other women who venture outside the "norm" of occupations. But I beg to differ that it is not an ironclad rule on who gets you coffee or shovels your driveway, because in some cases it is. Girls receive dual pressure from males and females to conform to the standard of "feminine". This is not to say that men do not encounter pressure but it is pressure to achieve. It is not by chance that in a power couple it is the female who is expected to sacrifice her career for the family regardless of talent, or in 85% of caregiving situations it is the female daughter who ends up taking care of parents even when multiple sons may have greater resources. While not a fan of Sandberg, I feel things will only begin to change when more women decide to buck the system and choose math over fashion.
11
Sheryl Sandberg is fabulous at writing old advice in a new way and getting mindless nubs to sop it up with a wet sponge. All the while expanding her ridiculously overstretched bank roll.
This isn't news. It's not even an opinion. It's rehashed garbage that's been published dozens of times before. Now please excuse me while I go and get my own coffee. I guess it would be too much to ask my wife to get some for me.
This isn't news. It's not even an opinion. It's rehashed garbage that's been published dozens of times before. Now please excuse me while I go and get my own coffee. I guess it would be too much to ask my wife to get some for me.
19
Well I hope you occasionally get your wife some coffee!
27
If you do a good job washing dishes, you'll end up being a good dishwasher...forever. There's no getting around it; men and women are different; they may act differently, they may see things differently...and as a result, they may be perceived differently. There are things many women can and should do to minimize the potential for being at the receiving end of condescending behavior in the workplace (avoid being the party planner and coffee-getter, for starters).
In spite of all of this, it is critical that women not lose sight of who they are in the process of fitting into the boys’ club at work. It’s great to be a woman and there can be advantages to being a girl in a boy’s world. Building trusting relationships can be easier, because men are less likely to feel competitive with women. Using the charming side of your personality to balance out those moments when you have to be directive and harsh is a viable solution to the inevitable derogatory label that assertive women inevitably receive.
Rather than whine about it, let’s figure out how to mentor the women who need to find the balance, and educate those men who might need to figure out how to get their own cuppa.
In spite of all of this, it is critical that women not lose sight of who they are in the process of fitting into the boys’ club at work. It’s great to be a woman and there can be advantages to being a girl in a boy’s world. Building trusting relationships can be easier, because men are less likely to feel competitive with women. Using the charming side of your personality to balance out those moments when you have to be directive and harsh is a viable solution to the inevitable derogatory label that assertive women inevitably receive.
Rather than whine about it, let’s figure out how to mentor the women who need to find the balance, and educate those men who might need to figure out how to get their own cuppa.
16
This is exactly what causes the problem. Kowtow, bow. and clean their shoes. You just don't get it
13
Let's measure the caliber of the news reporting here and the assertion predicated: Is the source of this state merely from the woman who supposes she has been victimized rather than from a disinterested source, or at least a number of different sources:
"her clear track record as a team player combined with her excellent performance should have made her a shoo-in."
"her clear track record as a team player combined with her excellent performance should have made her a shoo-in."
3
Perhaps you should read more than the first paragraph, which I admit is anecdotal at best but probably intended as a hypothetical.
7
Nanx, cute, a retort of a kind I disclosed--assume something not shown but used as evidence, twice no less: "Probably intended as hypothetical"? Desperate for a counter argument.
Agreed gender bias does exist. I'm a male, immigrant, husband and father of two daughters. I do everything my wife does at home - cooking, cleaning, helping kids and little more - handyman, vacation planner, sports coach.., Please don't say I'm a male chauvinist. I must say during my thirteen years in the consulting world, I have seen nasty men and women in equal numbers at all levels. Maybe right from entry level to vice president, down right dirty and disgusting. Of course not all of them were bad, definitely a few were good like other guys. I don't see today's work environment, at least in major metro areas, are any discriminating for women. Rather what i have seen is that qualified immigrants, equal in IQ, education and skill set as the "American" counterparts are looked down and passed up for promotions, etc.., which is a much bigger issue. Sure, there are lots of immigrants success stories. I find the whole notion of leaning in, back and side seems over blown.
2
I've been out of the office atmosphere for some time. However, a male colleague, who also had been a college football player, used to advise me to go into the supervisor's office daily and give him a rundown on all the tasks I was working on. I took this advise, though probably not daily. Frankly, it felt rather absurd. Surely a good supervisor would take the initiative in finding out what his employees were up to.
This guy was a team player, who often dropped everything to help out a fellow employee. After the interruption, he'd ask himself out loud, "Now, what was I working on?" I'd yell over the wall the task he'd most recently been engaged in. In effect, I was functioning as his supervisor, because our actual supervisor wasn't doing his job.
In recent years, business has emphasized good teams at the expense of good management. A quarterback who hikes the ball and lets the rest of the team do whatever play it suits them to is not a team player. Likewise, a boss who doesn't understand the dynamics of how his employees are working together isn't qualified to be a boss.
This guy was a team player, who often dropped everything to help out a fellow employee. After the interruption, he'd ask himself out loud, "Now, what was I working on?" I'd yell over the wall the task he'd most recently been engaged in. In effect, I was functioning as his supervisor, because our actual supervisor wasn't doing his job.
In recent years, business has emphasized good teams at the expense of good management. A quarterback who hikes the ball and lets the rest of the team do whatever play it suits them to is not a team player. Likewise, a boss who doesn't understand the dynamics of how his employees are working together isn't qualified to be a boss.
3
'...I'd yell over the wall the task he'd most recently been engaged in. In effect, I was functioning as his supervisor, because our actual supervisor wasn't doing his job...'
Why would you do that?
Why would you do that?
2
What if the woman who was asked to get the coffee turned to one of the junior males, and said, "Would you please get that for Mr. ---". I suspect that the next time that person would go straight to the more junior person and save a lot of aggravation.
16
Why respond to that junior male at all? Not her responsibility to get the jerk a soda. I'd just look at him and smile and go on about my business.
1
Good thought, but didn't work when I did that. I was reprimanded in front of the entire group, with the supervisor saying that if he wanted junior to get coffee, he would have asked him to do so. And this was in NYC government, supposedly an egalitarian workplace.
14
At Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Triy, it is the other way around. The presient who is a woman orders her sub-ordinates to clean her plates and dishes -(lease see this http://chronicle.com/article/Behind-RPIs-Highly-Paid/150441/ ) It is not the gender, but the power corrupts some human beings
6
If Brian Williams was Brenda Williams, NBC would have thrown her out. Don't male privilege is alive and well.
Things won't change so long as we worship the Abrahamic Religions that teach misogyny from the cradle on up.
Don't blame women for their plight when they can't see where and why they have been poisoned.
The day the Cardinals elect a female Pope, is the day equality becomes possible.
Things won't change so long as we worship the Abrahamic Religions that teach misogyny from the cradle on up.
Don't blame women for their plight when they can't see where and why they have been poisoned.
The day the Cardinals elect a female Pope, is the day equality becomes possible.
14
I work in government where it is not at all unusual for women to be dispatched to get someone to attend a meeting, or find out where someone is. And surprise, never ever is a man sent out on a similar task.
28
Then women should pass on the request.
4
I'm debating on sending this to our HR and letting them know that I notice this all the time.
23
Trust me, HR knows...
4
Being a white woman while working rests in white women having the right to vote for less than a century and being free from legally sanctioned discrimination in every phase of civil secular life for only half a century.
Imagine being either a Black male or female while working in the wake of humanity denying slavery and equality blocking Jim Crow.
Women were suggested as a protected class for the 1964 Civil Rights legislation by opponents of the law in an effort to thwart it's passage. They failed.
Half of Americans are female and they have all that power to make change.
Imagine being either a Black male or female while working in the wake of humanity denying slavery and equality blocking Jim Crow.
Women were suggested as a protected class for the 1964 Civil Rights legislation by opponents of the law in an effort to thwart it's passage. They failed.
Half of Americans are female and they have all that power to make change.
7
"... the female manager who was passed over ... found more efficient ways to help. ... And when clients made unreasonable requests, instead of saying she was too busy, she explained that it would stretch her team past the breaking point... After making these changes, she was promoted to partner." I would not count on that in a consulting firm where saying yes to clients and bringing in business is pretty much all that matters, regardless of the big picture and long term.
Nothing new about this information -- I have been observing it both personally and as a professional OD consultant for 30 years. Unless cultural norms change outside of work as well as at work, this will go on forever. It is still in our culture to say "my husband helps with the housework, childcare, etc." and that husband - often - expects a reward for it or at least the recognition. Not so with women. It is still - to a lesser degree than before - considered a negative for a woman to "allow" the man to do the cooking while it is a wonderful thing for the man.
Nothing new about this information -- I have been observing it both personally and as a professional OD consultant for 30 years. Unless cultural norms change outside of work as well as at work, this will go on forever. It is still in our culture to say "my husband helps with the housework, childcare, etc." and that husband - often - expects a reward for it or at least the recognition. Not so with women. It is still - to a lesser degree than before - considered a negative for a woman to "allow" the man to do the cooking while it is a wonderful thing for the man.
5
Yes, what is with this "husband HELPS with the housework" thing - don't they live in the house also??
Just like when they say some guy is "babysitting" his children - how can you babysit when it's your own kid?
Just like when they say some guy is "babysitting" his children - how can you babysit when it's your own kid?
15
Showing up at optional meetings? How does that help anyone? Meetings: where work goes to die.
10
"Just as we still need to rebalance housework and child care at home, we also need to equalize and value office housework. This means first acknowledging the imbalance and then correcting it."
And with regard to the Expected-Soda-Fetching-Senior-Woman, after receiving the request, I hope she turned to the next junior person at the table and instructed him or her to get it - and the request rolled down the seniority chain in the room until the most junior attendee (male or female) stood up and got the man his soda.
I also hope that at the next meeting, drinks were set up in the conference room (assuming that at this one they were not), with an introduction to "please, help yourself". Careless (or ignorant or unpleasant) behavior can change, but only if it's acknowledged and addressed.
And with regard to the Expected-Soda-Fetching-Senior-Woman, after receiving the request, I hope she turned to the next junior person at the table and instructed him or her to get it - and the request rolled down the seniority chain in the room until the most junior attendee (male or female) stood up and got the man his soda.
I also hope that at the next meeting, drinks were set up in the conference room (assuming that at this one they were not), with an introduction to "please, help yourself". Careless (or ignorant or unpleasant) behavior can change, but only if it's acknowledged and addressed.
27
When asked to do something that was clearly not my job, I told the boss I would see it was taken care of, which is really all they were asking. Then I would have stuck my head out the door and ask an assistant to deal with it.
That is showing leadership qualities, not getting the coffee.
That is showing leadership qualities, not getting the coffee.
136
The point was that the chairman asked a woman and not a man and that a Chairman with any integrity would have gotten up and stuck his head out the door and asked somebody to get him a soda.
9
I agree. I am a nurse and my job is to make sure the task gets done, not necessarily to do it.
I can do it, or I wouldn't ask someone else. I ask because I often have to do things the delegee cannot do.
Division of labor via delegation is a wonderful thing--when people will agree to do it.
I can do it, or I wouldn't ask someone else. I ask because I often have to do things the delegee cannot do.
Division of labor via delegation is a wonderful thing--when people will agree to do it.
2
Unfortunately it is not just the men that put the spokes in a woman manager's performance, it frequently occurs with other women, probably out of jealousy. I ran a small business for over 35 years, and one of my biggest problems was the resentment displayed by some (not all) women employees when tasks were assigned to them. When it became too overt, influencing the attitudes of other employees I had no alternative but to either have it out with them or arrange for their replacement.
10
That's why women who want to be successful have to stop caring about what other women think of them (as well as what men think of them, not counting the accepted norms or "rules of engagement" that other men have to play by in the office). At some point, you have to stop hanging out with the secretaries.
Unfortunately that doesn't mean that the men will invite you to the party, ever. I have spent my entire career being the so-called "smartest person in the room" (when among secretaries, dealing with them and helping them with tech issues) and then, often on the same day, being the so-called "dumbest person in the room" when I go back to my office full of IT guys. After many years of this, you begin to doubt the attractiveness of what the males have achieved, you are not sure you want to be part of their world. Skepticism creeps in, as does cynicism. You feel you don't belong anywhere.
Bright women have to work that loneliness out for themselves. You either commit suicide or keep on living, that's all I can say.
Unfortunately that doesn't mean that the men will invite you to the party, ever. I have spent my entire career being the so-called "smartest person in the room" (when among secretaries, dealing with them and helping them with tech issues) and then, often on the same day, being the so-called "dumbest person in the room" when I go back to my office full of IT guys. After many years of this, you begin to doubt the attractiveness of what the males have achieved, you are not sure you want to be part of their world. Skepticism creeps in, as does cynicism. You feel you don't belong anywhere.
Bright women have to work that loneliness out for themselves. You either commit suicide or keep on living, that's all I can say.
6
When I started off in my company 25 years ago, there was a certain label for older women employees who had a particular attitude - they were called "lifers." (They had been there "for life" and would be there until retirement age) Unlike the eager beaver young new female employees, the lifers did not leap out of their chairs to help you whenever you (or even anyone else, male or female) asked. They were slower to take on new responsibilities. They would stand their ground when challenged. They were wary of new initiatives. However, they took their jobs very seriously and were skilled and knowledgeable. (They also tended not to have the highest job titles, as they were probably passed over for promotions or never thought of when filling internal positions.)
These women used to be distasteful to me and I thought, "I never want to become a lifer like them." Now that I'm their age, I realize they were simply being smart. 20 years of acting like a typical woman on the job, is a recipe for burnout and madness. In other words - these women simply acted like male employees normally would have.
These women used to be distasteful to me and I thought, "I never want to become a lifer like them." Now that I'm their age, I realize they were simply being smart. 20 years of acting like a typical woman on the job, is a recipe for burnout and madness. In other words - these women simply acted like male employees normally would have.
60
"...these women simply acted like male employees normally would have." You're right, the difference being that these women, having been energetic, enthusiastic, and hard-working for years, saw that their contributions were taken for granted, their opinions were ignored, and their ideas were appropriated by male coworkers and managers, without attribution or compensation. Time to change jobs? Not so easy when the culture is pervasive throughout industry - as these many comments illustrate.
5
Men who had been in the job 20 years and displayed the qualities of the "lifers" would be running the company. Standing one's ground, being skilled , knowledgeable and serious about one's job works well for men, for women, not as much.
5
I can vividly remember a time in my career when my manager was in town for meetings. I was the lead manager for the regional office. We had a lunch meeting scheduled and as we sat down, the topic of lunch came up. I very purposefully kept my mouth shut - against every instinct I had about being the "host" and "making people comfortable" and "it would just be easier if I did it" etc, etc. I recommended a place that delivers and my manager took the orders and made the phone call. I was probably the ONLY one in the room who understood what dynamic was at play. But I was also the only woman.
26
Gee if I were in your shoes I would have arranged lunch. Seems like that would be appropriate for the hosting manager; but you showed them.
5
And you were probably the ONLY one in the room who thought it was their job to do something about it.
Good for you for not volunteering, but the question is why was it your 'instinct' to do so? Because it is not instinct, it is conditioning from childhood, no doubt from your mother that all low level chores should fall to women.
Good for you for not volunteering, but the question is why was it your 'instinct' to do so? Because it is not instinct, it is conditioning from childhood, no doubt from your mother that all low level chores should fall to women.
2
Such an investment in conditioning women to see themselves as victims. Survey all the facts, all the caveats and the elements to individual situations that may not seem so unfair to women after all. I would expect there are areas that need improvements, but the drumbeat of how unfair women are treated has turned people deaf to it. How about the simple truth that when a man fails at something no tears will help, and there isn't an army of men to gather by his side to say he was treated unfairly. How about when a woman calls the police, the man is arrested just because she says she feels threatened. A man doesn't have these privileges. Don't even bring up child custody battles where men aren't considered at all. Just pay is what they are told. We each could find the slights and injustices if that's the only drive one has.
6
Women executives need to stop doing things that should be assigned to clerical staff or “gofers”. I know that woman executive who was asked to get a soda for the CEO probably didn’t want to make a scene at the meeting but she should have said something so that the behavior wouldn’t be taken as the norm. She then should have spoken to him privately after the meeting. She should also have made a note of this type of behavior in case this was part of a pattern and a discrimination suit needed to be filed at a later date. To get ahead in business, if you’re not part of a nepotism hire, then it’s better to be respected than to be liked if a choice has to be made between the two.
9
I find it hard to trust the authenticity of this biased, equivocal article. As a working mother of two sons and as a IT professional who has been in the US IT industry for over 20 years now I find the basis of the article to be flawed, ambivalent and entirely inclined towards subjugating the contribution of men in the work force.
I have often observed that women in the IT industry in spite of their lack or depth of understanding the subject matter often subdue their male counterparts with arbitrary proposals during meetings. Also women including me are often allowed privileges like working from home whereas men are not. Men in general are expected to be the ultra potent and carefree and are often looked down upon when they take a sick day or intend to work from home.
Just as the author indicates that women are often expected to organize parties or bring coffee, I often feel that men are often expected to carry chairs for their female colleagues or are expected to offer their seats when there isn't enough seating arrangements in the meeting room.
Alas, if this is the ground on which equality needs to be sought then some day we might see a day when all men are forced to quit the work force and become home makers to appease the nurturing limits set by women.
I have often observed that women in the IT industry in spite of their lack or depth of understanding the subject matter often subdue their male counterparts with arbitrary proposals during meetings. Also women including me are often allowed privileges like working from home whereas men are not. Men in general are expected to be the ultra potent and carefree and are often looked down upon when they take a sick day or intend to work from home.
Just as the author indicates that women are often expected to organize parties or bring coffee, I often feel that men are often expected to carry chairs for their female colleagues or are expected to offer their seats when there isn't enough seating arrangements in the meeting room.
Alas, if this is the ground on which equality needs to be sought then some day we might see a day when all men are forced to quit the work force and become home makers to appease the nurturing limits set by women.
8
I am not sure what company you work for but I work as a software engineer for a fortune 100 software company and men here are NOT expected to "men are often expected to carry chairs for their female colleagues or are expected to offer their seats when there isn't enough seating arrangements in the meeting room." AND they don't ever do it which is how it should be.
This is also NOT different between men and women: "are often looked down upon when they take a sick day or intend to work from home."
This is also NOT different between men and women: "are often looked down upon when they take a sick day or intend to work from home."
16
I've worked in corporate America for over 30 years and have never once seen a man offer to, or give up a seat at a meeting for a woman colleague, unless she were their boss. Not that they necessarily should; to do otherwise would be to be as overly solicitous as a woman offering to get coffee. Instead, women go, find and bring in extra sets if they want to sit down. I have, however, seen over and over the behavior and bias cited in the article.
1
I work on a team of mostly all young female staff members. Our supervisor is male. I'm different from my young female colleagues in terms of my seniority. What's extremely frustrating is not only watching my colleagues routinely and eagerly accept administrative tasks that our supervisor should do, but to be rewarded by our supervisor because then it means he doesn't have to do them. It would be one thing if these tasks were valuable and could substantively help their careers, but they are mostly all the tedious things that most managers hate doing but come with the territory. Instead of professionals, they get rewarded for acting like glorified secretaries!
8
As a woman in a department of mostly women, I must say that I used to do this...I had trouble saying no and would put in extra hours to do tasks in order to help others and make their jobs easier. I have made an effort to stop doing this, but it took a while to recognize this in myself, believe it or not. I see most of the women in my department doing these extra tasks as well. It's part of the company culture, but it's also how we as women were raised. We were told to be all things to all people and that in order to be liked, we had to put others' needs before our own. This is a cultural issue that needs to be addressed. Likewise, the men (and women) who routinely expect this of women also need to change their behavior.
8
Saying it does not make it so. I work in a female-dominated industry and it is not at all my experience that women exhibit more volunteerism or initiative.
5
Conclusion: Most men are entitled jerks. That is, you give a little person a little power, and look how they squander it.
3
This article is what is wrong. You don't need to change policies, rules, "corporate culture" to emasculate men to accommodate women.
Women need to be parented ( ideally by an active father ) who tells them that anything they want and don't want they set boundaries for, be aggressive, and TAKE what they want.
In a group of men the lowest ranking male, (beta) will also be the one told to get coffee or expected to make copies. Assertive women wouldn't even be asked, or if asked straight faced say "get your own coffee." Unless they of course are the lowest performer.
Women: Try outperforming. The best developer in a group of engineers ( assuming she's a woman) isn't going to be expected to get coffee.
And as much as we talk about men and women being treated "equal" we need to be aware that men and women are different.. Men have 10x the testosterone women do. Women do not. Because of that there will always be differences in the sexes no matter how much you want to wash over that.
Women need to be parented ( ideally by an active father ) who tells them that anything they want and don't want they set boundaries for, be aggressive, and TAKE what they want.
In a group of men the lowest ranking male, (beta) will also be the one told to get coffee or expected to make copies. Assertive women wouldn't even be asked, or if asked straight faced say "get your own coffee." Unless they of course are the lowest performer.
Women: Try outperforming. The best developer in a group of engineers ( assuming she's a woman) isn't going to be expected to get coffee.
And as much as we talk about men and women being treated "equal" we need to be aware that men and women are different.. Men have 10x the testosterone women do. Women do not. Because of that there will always be differences in the sexes no matter how much you want to wash over that.
5
When I worked at Google during Sheryl Sandberg's tenure, despite being the top performer on my team, I was told that I wouldn't be promoted until I "smiled more." Like that would ever happen to a man!
95
I work at a large fortune 100 company with several impressive top female executives. However, our CEO treats our brilliant CMO like a mommy half the time, rather that the strategic leader that she is. She's a pro, and does what is expected, but it's disheartening to me, a rising female exec, to see her reach the c-suite and have to get band-aides and coffee for a juvenile ceo. She could chose not to, but then she'd likely be out of a job, no matter how tactfully she handled it.
22
No doubt that is a role she put herself in, not one that was expected of her.
1
NM -most likely it's both. We have all been raised in the same culture.
3
'...When it came time for her review for partner, her clear track record as a team player combined with her excellent performance should have made her a shoo-in...'
But the woman did not seem to be a 'team player'. She seemed to be the Office Mom and the people who call women 'selfish' if they do not fit into the nurturing role are almost always women.
People tend to treat you as you expect to be treated and many women do not understand that being a 'team player' is not the same as volunteering to do the scut work around the office.
Once a woman puts herself into this role, it is very hard for her to be taken seriously in business, as she herself has chosen the identity of the person most likely to get coffee or take notes.
It is not up to the men to read her mind and understand that she really does not want to do the things she has offered to do.
As for a boss asking me to get coffee for the entire room? I would start looking for another job.
But the woman did not seem to be a 'team player'. She seemed to be the Office Mom and the people who call women 'selfish' if they do not fit into the nurturing role are almost always women.
People tend to treat you as you expect to be treated and many women do not understand that being a 'team player' is not the same as volunteering to do the scut work around the office.
Once a woman puts herself into this role, it is very hard for her to be taken seriously in business, as she herself has chosen the identity of the person most likely to get coffee or take notes.
It is not up to the men to read her mind and understand that she really does not want to do the things she has offered to do.
As for a boss asking me to get coffee for the entire room? I would start looking for another job.
8
I think you've missed the damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't part of this. Do you want to be OfficeMom, or SelfishB*tch? Tempting choices all around, and neither are reasonable or have anything to do with professional capabilities.
28
"By explaining that she was protecting others, she was able to say no but still seem giving and caring."
Huge mistake for a woman to think they should be seen as 'giving and caring', which is not the same as being seen as a team player and a decent human being.
No man in a business setting would ever want to be described as 'giving and caring', as that is the kiss of death.
The business world is cutthroat and not for everyone, but if women decide this is what they want to do, they must avoid falling into traditional female roles and trying to get everyone to 'like' them, when they should be trying to get everyone to respect them.
Huge mistake for a woman to think they should be seen as 'giving and caring', which is not the same as being seen as a team player and a decent human being.
No man in a business setting would ever want to be described as 'giving and caring', as that is the kiss of death.
The business world is cutthroat and not for everyone, but if women decide this is what they want to do, they must avoid falling into traditional female roles and trying to get everyone to 'like' them, when they should be trying to get everyone to respect them.
14
This brings back memories of when I was training to be a stockbroker at Merrill Lynch in the mid-Seventies. Of the office's 50 brokers, 46 were men. During my training period, several times different male brokers would ask me to type something for them, and I simply said, "I don't know how to type." A year and half later, I ranked higher than all of them in the amount of business generated.
As an aside, one day my boss pulled me aside, pointed to my bare legs, and told me he expected me to wear stockings. So, like most women back then, I did.
www.confessionsofaworrywart.com
As an aside, one day my boss pulled me aside, pointed to my bare legs, and told me he expected me to wear stockings. So, like most women back then, I did.
www.confessionsofaworrywart.com
15
I worked for a large firm in which one (older) VP would wander through the hallways, looking for someone, anyone, to type stuff for him. I wondered how on earth he kept his job. Of course, he would hit up all the women first. We'd all sadly shake our heads and say "Sorry, buried under these immediate tasks" and he'd move on, papers shuffling in hand, to someone else.
Of course, it never occurred to him to LEARN HOW TO TYPE.
Of course, it never occurred to him to LEARN HOW TO TYPE.
17
sad, but true..it took almost 25 years for me to realize that there was no need for a woman to take notes or keep emails....if it was important someone else would do it. leaving work on time, the world doesn't change, the office doesn't stop, and nothing makes a significant difference if the blackberry isn't checked every 30 minutes.
3
One of the problems is that it is a wrong to believe that women who gain power and authority in companies reach out to help other women. It happens sometimes, but not often. Women who ascend to the higher ranks need to please their bosses, and those bosses are often men. And, women in less powerful positions should not count on being mentored by any woman above them.
One suggestion, just to test out if the theory of women not being taken seriously even if they are promoted past the administrative level: Women who have the chance to hire administrative assistants and executive assistants should hire more males. Let the males be responsible for keeping the company kitchen clean and stocked, ordering office supplies, doing personal errands for their bosses, ordering food and beverages for meetings, getting conference rooms ready for meetings and cleaning up after meetings, and "helping out" whenever someone else is out sick or on vacation. Then, let's see whether there's a difference between how males and females react to being expected to perform those duties and, if the males are promoted past the administrative level, whether those same males are still viewed by all levels of management as the people who should go get the coffee and clean the company kitchen, etc. At a meeting, will management automatically point to the prior male "admin" when wanting a pad of paper or a beverage? I doubt it, but I'd like to see it tested out.
One suggestion, just to test out if the theory of women not being taken seriously even if they are promoted past the administrative level: Women who have the chance to hire administrative assistants and executive assistants should hire more males. Let the males be responsible for keeping the company kitchen clean and stocked, ordering office supplies, doing personal errands for their bosses, ordering food and beverages for meetings, getting conference rooms ready for meetings and cleaning up after meetings, and "helping out" whenever someone else is out sick or on vacation. Then, let's see whether there's a difference between how males and females react to being expected to perform those duties and, if the males are promoted past the administrative level, whether those same males are still viewed by all levels of management as the people who should go get the coffee and clean the company kitchen, etc. At a meeting, will management automatically point to the prior male "admin" when wanting a pad of paper or a beverage? I doubt it, but I'd like to see it tested out.
13
Until we stop the patriarchal religions, women being seen as second class and their work as less than men and women being objectified for sex and birthing, the inequality will never change.
5
FWIW, I've felt that there are different definitions of 'team player' used by men and women. Men naturally follow the lead of the star QB and the 'team' becomes a hierarchy, and women don't get this and get lost and frustrated when they see that 'team' isn't want they thought it would be. I don't know if this is because women don't play football or it's predestined and genetic, that the male hierarchy is always there for the boys, to the exclusion of the women. JMO
2
This is so depressing. After all this time, working women are still being treated like housewives???
10
This is so depressing. After all this time, working women are still treating themselves like housewives???
1
So, when I volunteered to help organize the holiday parties and "walks" I was told that I only did it because I thought I could do better than anyone else. So then I completely stopped and then they offended that I was no longer participating. Damned that I did and damned that I didn't.
This is an excellent article about things that we discuss among ourselves, but never in public.
This is an excellent article about things that we discuss among ourselves, but never in public.
35
Although Ms. Sandberg can sometimes be a little tone deaf about her image as an insulated 1 percenter, as always this is a very thought provoking op-ed.
6
When I was a child, I had a favorite playmate. Almost everyday we played at school. One day, I played with the girls instead. When recess was over, my friend, a little boy, came over and asked me to help him clean up what he had played with. I said no. We never played together again, and I don't believe he spoke to me after that. No wonder they grow into such self absorbed jerks.
13
"No wonder they grow into such self absorbed jerks."
This is bigotry.
This is bigotry.
2
Reverse discrimination! Oh, my!
1
When women are manipulated by being told they are "rude and angry" do we need to get polite and happy to prove the opposite? While all that is going on, the Mad Men are sitting in the back rooms laughing their heads off.
We need to be redirected in leadership skills that work once again, get re-energized by women who have been there and know what they're doing and talking about.
So will those women please step forward and help???????
Sooner rather than later.
We need to be redirected in leadership skills that work once again, get re-energized by women who have been there and know what they're doing and talking about.
So will those women please step forward and help???????
Sooner rather than later.
7
I get the stereotypes. But do you feel that's the biggest issue here? The authors follow the stereotypes they mention here with research that proves society at large makes these generalizations. But isn't the example of the man asking the woman to get him a soda either severely lacking context (like maybe she was getting a soda too) or just a case of one man being an idiot/contemptible?
It's mentioned that men should speak up to highlight women colleagues. But doesn't that make the assumption that a woman needs the man to speak up for her? Men should be aware if they or others are being demeaning and stereotypical and do something about that. It should be phrased that way in my opinion. Not "men, speak up for woman who are being marginalized by stereotypes". That sounds like a band-aid for chauvinism.
I just feel like there's other issues in workplaces with men and woman. Harassment. Unfair maternity and parental benefits, etc., and that maybe this misses the point. I could be totally wrong.
It's mentioned that men should speak up to highlight women colleagues. But doesn't that make the assumption that a woman needs the man to speak up for her? Men should be aware if they or others are being demeaning and stereotypical and do something about that. It should be phrased that way in my opinion. Not "men, speak up for woman who are being marginalized by stereotypes". That sounds like a band-aid for chauvinism.
I just feel like there's other issues in workplaces with men and woman. Harassment. Unfair maternity and parental benefits, etc., and that maybe this misses the point. I could be totally wrong.
4
I don't get coffee unless i am getting one for myself and give it to whomever with Pass it forward..Jimmy is doing refills. Smile.
Notes are a different matter..I embrace note taking as long as I have editing power over the minutes and can structure the minutes in ways that empower my projects.
The marketplace looks more like a jungle than productive farmland. Decreasing a gender's effectiveness because of old-boy loyalties or biases is foolish. I am looking forward to retirement. Enough.
Notes are a different matter..I embrace note taking as long as I have editing power over the minutes and can structure the minutes in ways that empower my projects.
The marketplace looks more like a jungle than productive farmland. Decreasing a gender's effectiveness because of old-boy loyalties or biases is foolish. I am looking forward to retirement. Enough.
13
Great article! The suggestions towards the end point the way for a more inclusionary environment which we need if we going to survive and, hopefully, thrive. But it's going to require very conscious changes, with leaders who can truly set the example for listening to others instead of focusing on 'making the killer point'. How many meetings have you attended lately that made you feel as if you were glad to have spent the time with your colleagues?
9
I would hope that the senior executive who was asked to fetch a soda at a board meeting simply declined to to so. Given that it was the chairman of the board making the request, this is doubtful. If more women declined to play hostess or maid in the workplace, the message might get heard and eventually heeded.
I was hired years ago to be the A/P and A/R person at a small software company where almost everyone else was male. The phone would ring off the hook if I didn't answer it, so I soon became the de facto receptionist as well. Other de facto job responsibilities followed: HR person and payroll processor, office manager, travel coordinator and production manager. I decided to leave after not being included in an all-boys production meeting one day, at the close of which meeting the task of the production was dumped on my desk. When I gave two-weeks notice to the boss not too long after, he actually cried.
I've got my own small business now. Not long ago I was leaving a job site to pick up supplies. I was quite dumb-founded when a worker asked me to stop and get him a coffee. He was quite dumb-founded when I replied very simply that I would not be doing that.
I was hired years ago to be the A/P and A/R person at a small software company where almost everyone else was male. The phone would ring off the hook if I didn't answer it, so I soon became the de facto receptionist as well. Other de facto job responsibilities followed: HR person and payroll processor, office manager, travel coordinator and production manager. I decided to leave after not being included in an all-boys production meeting one day, at the close of which meeting the task of the production was dumped on my desk. When I gave two-weeks notice to the boss not too long after, he actually cried.
I've got my own small business now. Not long ago I was leaving a job site to pick up supplies. I was quite dumb-founded when a worker asked me to stop and get him a coffee. He was quite dumb-founded when I replied very simply that I would not be doing that.
110
I have the exact same experience (A/R, A/P de facto everything)-- only I am male.
It started a few years back when I fortunate enough to obtain work and I felt compelled to be a "team player" for survival. I can assure you I was never compensated in any way, shape or form and to this day -- even though we hired some additional people for the De Facto job, I am still "The backup"! -- so when these new people creatively turn their heads at work I still get the brunt.
As yes some of these new hires are women.
It started a few years back when I fortunate enough to obtain work and I felt compelled to be a "team player" for survival. I can assure you I was never compensated in any way, shape or form and to this day -- even though we hired some additional people for the De Facto job, I am still "The backup"! -- so when these new people creatively turn their heads at work I still get the brunt.
As yes some of these new hires are women.
'...The phone would ring off the hook if I didn't answer it...'
You should have let it.
Your choices led directly to your work, and you, not being valued.
You should have let it.
Your choices led directly to your work, and you, not being valued.
2
Perhaps the woman executive could have turned to one of the juniors and delegated him to get the soda.
If women continue to fall for this old saw - then they have no one to blame but themselves - I have not seen it in the hectic consulting industry where I cut my teeth.
If you agree to plan the parties - get the coffee - do the admin tasks - plan the trips - you are a sucker - I didn't do it - and the majority of both sexes where I worked did not get involved in it.
Can you find some folks that want to do these task in the mistaken belief that it show competence and being a team-player - probably - but it really does not show either of those two. Seriously - do people believe you get to be a senior manager based on your party-planning expertise?
This piece mistakes expectations for acquiescence - as the war-on-women apologists usually do
If you agree to plan the parties - get the coffee - do the admin tasks - plan the trips - you are a sucker - I didn't do it - and the majority of both sexes where I worked did not get involved in it.
Can you find some folks that want to do these task in the mistaken belief that it show competence and being a team-player - probably - but it really does not show either of those two. Seriously - do people believe you get to be a senior manager based on your party-planning expertise?
This piece mistakes expectations for acquiescence - as the war-on-women apologists usually do
7
I always thought men in high positions should also be good administrators.
Here I am seeing that if a woman does the work, the work itself is devalued.
Maybe men who "don't know how" to take notes, etc., should be held back till they can do all the job, not just the part that feeds their egos.
Too many women just adopt the male values and behavior instead of being able to bring what women do that is different to the firm, partnership, whatever.
After all, teamwork means valuing what everyone does because it is important to the success of the job or project.
Oh and "war on women apologists" is sort of an odd phrase.
Here I am seeing that if a woman does the work, the work itself is devalued.
Maybe men who "don't know how" to take notes, etc., should be held back till they can do all the job, not just the part that feeds their egos.
Too many women just adopt the male values and behavior instead of being able to bring what women do that is different to the firm, partnership, whatever.
After all, teamwork means valuing what everyone does because it is important to the success of the job or project.
Oh and "war on women apologists" is sort of an odd phrase.
6
bse: If the task is not part of your job responsibilities or does not further your career, do not volunteer to do it.
Is that really so hard to understand?
Is that really so hard to understand?
1
I definitely see this type of behavior in both men and women in corporate life (US and Europe, I am sure elsewhere. Yes, that's right, women do this to each other because we, too, have been raised in the same culture of patriarchy. Do I think having more women in high levels would help? Yes, but I also think that until the underlying cultural attitudes about both men and women shift, it won't make that much of a difference. I will be the first to admit that I have these attitudes ingrained in me. This is important research that can help educate all people, not just men, in the workforce.
23
I work in a suite of offices where the only way to enter is for the secretary to open the door by pressing the buzzer. If the secretary is not at her desk and someone needs to enter the suite, the administrative assistant, whose office is down the hall, or I will get the door. Several other physicians, all male, have offices in the suite. When the secretary is not at the desk the men do not get up to open the door no matter how long someone rings the bell. It's not my job or the administrative assistant's job, but as women, we feel the need to help and because it's good customer service. The men, it appears, have figured out that "one of the girls" will always get the door.
I blame this type of behavior on the enabling process that goes on in the workplace, and as this article demonstrates, women's almost primal need to help, independent of our own workload.
It's difficult to say no to something as simple as opening a door, but now it's not just no; it's no with the annoyance, frustration, and accompanying attitude of being taken advantage of, and it's no with the frustration of the way the men leave the break room because they know one of the "girls" will clean it up.
Here's are some tips for the long term: Women, if you want to stop this behavior, don't start it. Every man, sorry-every person-for him or herself!
Second, raise children differently. Raise girls not to be so communal and boys not to be so unaware of divisive behaviors.
I blame this type of behavior on the enabling process that goes on in the workplace, and as this article demonstrates, women's almost primal need to help, independent of our own workload.
It's difficult to say no to something as simple as opening a door, but now it's not just no; it's no with the annoyance, frustration, and accompanying attitude of being taken advantage of, and it's no with the frustration of the way the men leave the break room because they know one of the "girls" will clean it up.
Here's are some tips for the long term: Women, if you want to stop this behavior, don't start it. Every man, sorry-every person-for him or herself!
Second, raise children differently. Raise girls not to be so communal and boys not to be so unaware of divisive behaviors.
193
If you feel that you're being taken advantage of then speak up or at least change your behavior. Fight against your 'primal need to help' until you at least get recognition for the help. Try ignoring the bell the way the men do. Let it ring until the customer leaves or calls with a complaint. Definitely don't clean up a mess that someone else made and if you're a grown women insist on not being called a 'girl'.
6
MMB Thank you for your comment. I don't know if you did it on purpose, but you referred to "girls" and "women" several times in your comment. It is time to educate people and stop referring to mature females as "girls".
We are women.
We are women.
21
'...but as women, we feel the need to help...'
That statement alone says it all.
Not all women are like this and the ones who are best question their upbringing.
That statement alone says it all.
Not all women are like this and the ones who are best question their upbringing.
4
I wonder if formalizing the housekeeping tasks would help. Each person has to clean the fridge for a week, and there's a sign up so people will know whose week it is.
3
How about hiring a person to do all the "housekeeping"--thus creating a new job and enabling more time spent on the job to be done, than worrying about who is going to make the cupcakes?
44
Create a new job? You mean get an admin? That's been the biggest loss to workers everywhere -- not having an efficient, organized office "housekeeper". Out of over 120 employees in our office, there are 3 admins. Probably 40% of my work is administrative. I'd like to think I could be so much more productive with a strong admin on my team.
17
I can think of a couple of reasons why this suggestion wouldn't work. First, who who would want to take a "housekeeping" job for the long term? Pretty dull, dead end job and not likely to attract many candidates. I worked at IBM for over 20 years. For the most part, there was equal round robin sharing across genders for these type of "collaborative" activities. When there wasn't, I, and my female peers, spoke up. I recall a particular occasion when I was feverishly making changes to a powerpoint presentation for my executive male boss. His peer (female) approached me and requested that I make her changes after I was done, assuming, erroneously, that I was his admin. I responded that I was happy to lend her my laptop after I was done with his work, so she could make her own changes. My boss keenly took note from the side and we both had a chuckle afterwards out of earshot. He taught me how to carve healthy work boundaries. Advice to women, stand your ground and work smart. In response to the board chairman who asked to be fetched a soda, I would have turned to my junior male colleagues and asked which of them wanted to volunteer to complete the task. Point made, lesson learned.
4
Isn't this the truth! My husband, who's a systems engineer, has no admin & the company has systematically eliminated almost every support dept./person (e.g., no more Tech Pubs dept., the Travel Dept. went from 20 people to 2, etc.). He probably doesn't spend 40% of his time on administrative work, but he finds it very frustrating to have to spend a couple of hours on processing a travel form when a properly trained admin could do it in 20 mins. Really, is paying an engineer, whose salary is three-four times that of an admin, to do admin work really in a company's best financial interests?
6
Yes. Sheryl Sandberg is an out of touch billionaire parading around how she leaves the office at 5:30pm and her husband does the laundry. She's made so much money from the Facebook IPO that it isn't funny. Sheryl doesn't understand the plight of the working woman. She's so out of touch that I can't believe the New York Times is publishing anything from her. Maybe her ghost writer wrote it. Please get a real person to write your articles. And by real -- I mean someone with actual empathy and who isn't preaching us normal people how to go live our lives.
209
I don't believe that's fair. She herself has said that not everything she says is always relevant to people who are struggling to make ends meet. Not every article has to cater to every working woman. Her message happens to cater to women who are trying to work their way up, and she wants to make sure there are more women in top leadership positions to then address the inequalities that other women face. Just because an article isn't written for everyone, doesn't mean the article has no merit.
16
So that's Cheryl Sandberg. A woman who was in the right place at the right time. That's about it. And she is telling other women to act like men and smother themselves. Bad advice.
1
Wow, what a hostile response to a column that actually is a great description of what happens in the workplace. These two make be big money makers but their columns speak the truth.
13
When is Ms Sandburg going to start writing columns about business, as opposed to business politics?
52
PJC - this IS about business. Apparently, the entire article just flew over your head. Shows just how hard this dynamic will be to change in the U.S.
16
She IS writing about business. In STEM companies like Facebook, recruiting and retaining top talent can make or break the company. Woman are woefully absent at all levels of STEM companies as well as in STEM disciplines at the graduate and undergraduate levels. By sticking her neck out to to speak and write about these uncomfortable issues, Sandberg is helping change the hearts and minds of business leaders who are in a position to drive change in their organizations. Anyone unwilling or unable to hear her message is missing out on half the talent pool.
13
When is Ms. Sandburg going to write about a business that actually makes things, instead of using finance and marketing to scale up an existing business, or one that just exists in the ether of the Internet?
For those in the MBA class, things are rarely messy, and it leaves more time for commentary.
For those in the MBA class, things are rarely messy, and it leaves more time for commentary.
1
I've worked to stay out of the Secretaries' Ghetto for exactly the reasons stated in the article. Once a woman is seen as an admin, she'll never be considered for anything else. Fortunately, some bosses really do appreciate talent and drive, no matter who has it.
8
Women, like men in the workplace, try to live up to expectations in order to get ahead, except when women do this, they don't get ahead, they just aren't penalized. It is very difficult to "break the mold" and move outside of your expected role as a woman in the workplace. If a woman does this, she is perceived in a negative light, by other women as well as men (see previous article in this series). For many years I worked as a laboratory supervisor for a chemical company and it was the informal "custom" for women to perform phone duty when the lab secretary stepped out. Each time I was asked to take my turn at the phones - by other women coworkers - I declined. Men were never asked. My refusal "to go along" with a practice that I considered sexist engendered raised eyebrows and smug looks of resentment. It is my experience that women in the workplace very often reinforce a status-quo that holds them back.
57
It is not difficult to "break the mold".
You just have to know what you want and understand that is a job, not your friends and family.
The worst sexism I have experienced in the office is from other women, who try to pressure women into fitting into the typical female role. That it does not work on me is to my benefit.
You just have to know what you want and understand that is a job, not your friends and family.
The worst sexism I have experienced in the office is from other women, who try to pressure women into fitting into the typical female role. That it does not work on me is to my benefit.
8
"...we expect men to be ambitious and results-oriented, and women to be nurturing and communal. When a man offers to help, we shower him with praise and rewards. But when a woman helps, we feel less indebted. She’s communal, right? She wants to be a team player. The reverse is also true. When a woman declines to help a colleague, people like her less and her career suffers.”
In other words, "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Welcome to the lot of the professional woman.
The suggestions for addressing this problem seem quite Pollyanna-ish. Before everything, they require that men actually think about this problem, acknowledge its existence, and be ready to help address it. In my own experience, these conditions are rarely met, and I'm a career scientist with 25+ professional years under my belt.
In other words, "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Welcome to the lot of the professional woman.
The suggestions for addressing this problem seem quite Pollyanna-ish. Before everything, they require that men actually think about this problem, acknowledge its existence, and be ready to help address it. In my own experience, these conditions are rarely met, and I'm a career scientist with 25+ professional years under my belt.
63
And yet it is women who enforce these roles on themselves and other women, much more than men do.
I am a tough woman when it comes to business settings, but the push back to my assertive ways has always come from other women, never from men.
I have had to tell female coworkers meetings with vendors when I knew I was going to have to be especially aggressive to please not try to 'smooth things over' when I put them on the carpet, even if it the conflict made them uncomfortable.
They did not understand that doing so undermined my position and, in fact, undermined the position of the company. It also makes the woman seem like someone who should not be promoted, as she would not stand up for the company in a tough negotiation, but would instead capitulate in order to be seen as 'nice'.
Women who do so are their own worst enemies and have no one to blame but themselves.
I am a tough woman when it comes to business settings, but the push back to my assertive ways has always come from other women, never from men.
I have had to tell female coworkers meetings with vendors when I knew I was going to have to be especially aggressive to please not try to 'smooth things over' when I put them on the carpet, even if it the conflict made them uncomfortable.
They did not understand that doing so undermined my position and, in fact, undermined the position of the company. It also makes the woman seem like someone who should not be promoted, as she would not stand up for the company in a tough negotiation, but would instead capitulate in order to be seen as 'nice'.
Women who do so are their own worst enemies and have no one to blame but themselves.
4
Traditionally, the roll of men has had to do with power and dominance. Traditionally, the roll of women has had to do with caring. Since the feminist revolution we have assumed that these stereotypes have been whisked away, but the unconscious, sometimes conscious, roll playing has not stopped only gone underground. How long it will take for people to actually understand completely in word and action that strength and caring truly exist within us all of us and should be rewarded for everyone is anyone's guess. But at least we are making some strides in that direction, not fast enough and that is frustrating, but human attitudes especially ones that give an advantage to one group over another die hard. The board room often becomes a game of thrones and as in the rest of society the game of cooperation must finally take its place or we might as well live in caves.
8
I work in a matriarchy, not a patriarchy. I am the rare man around the office. I have found that the women I interact with help me a great deal. I do counsel my boss on taking care of herself, and family, first. I am well known for saying to people, "Take the time to be with your kids, go to the recital or play. They'll never be five (or whatever) again." I am an older single dad, so I feel that I know what I am talking about when it comes to balance between work and home.
10
Years ago when I was a secretary for a major newspaper, I was made Editor of Letters to the Editor when the Assistant Editor took a special assignment (it had been his job). I was also sent out on weekends to cover stories when they found out I could write and I was identified in my "byline" as "a member of the staff." I read an article in Cosmopolitan once that said if you are a good secretary and want to get ahead, stop being a good secretary. I started making occasional errors, quit making myself so available and became just a bit edgy but excelled on my news writing assignments and revamped the letters to the editor process....eventually I was promoted to Executive Assistant to the Editor and editor of the newspaper's house organ. And, I was featured in a future article in Cosmpolitan, "What It's Like to Work For a Newspaper," which opened more doors. I believe my last quote in the article was, "Start in the mailroom only if you want to be a postman." I totally agree that if you want to excel, you have to use your wits to reinvent yourself. Determine their needs and find a way to fulfill them. Don't ask for permission...take the initiative.
37
At my first job out of college in the architectural field, I drafted construction drawings all day.
The secretaries at this small firm were friendly and supportive and one day, one of them asked me if I could type. I told her I could and she gave me good advice that I use to this day, many decades after. She said not to let the bosses know I could type, as whatever they thought I could do, I would be asked to do, when crunch time came.
A few months later, a huge prospectus had to be typed up on deadline and lo, one of the bosses came and asked me if I could type.
I said that I could not and went home at 5pm. The next day, the secretaries told me they had been there until midnight.
The boss never asked me again.
Lesson learned.
The secretaries at this small firm were friendly and supportive and one day, one of them asked me if I could type. I told her I could and she gave me good advice that I use to this day, many decades after. She said not to let the bosses know I could type, as whatever they thought I could do, I would be asked to do, when crunch time came.
A few months later, a huge prospectus had to be typed up on deadline and lo, one of the bosses came and asked me if I could type.
I said that I could not and went home at 5pm. The next day, the secretaries told me they had been there until midnight.
The boss never asked me again.
Lesson learned.
9
I am a CEO of a large corp....I love the women that work with me- they are smart, helpful and energetic. When I read your # 1 and now your #2 segment on Women in the workplace, I know that you are fanning the flames of bias and I wonder if your efforts are backfiring. I know if I hire male managers then the likelihood of being sued for gender discrimination goes way down....My liability goes up with the popularity of your cause.. I do not think you are helping women in the work place as much as you seem to be satisfying your own need to be heard.
5
Wow! Perhaps you should look more closely at what is going on in your company that would cause gender discrimination complaints instead of admitting that you blatantly practice gender discrimination in hiring "to avoid lawsuits". And you say how dare we say out loud that gender discrimination occurs, because it riles up women. You sound like "an old white man", even if you might not look like one.
3
Most women will never sue for gender discrimination. They'll suffer in silence, fight back, or leave. Mostly, we roll with the punches. It started in my family (boys' work was more important), but I married a man who's willing to do more than his fair share, when he's not working at two jobs, that is.
I've only known one woman to get an EEOC "right to sue" letter, and when she received it, she used it to negotiate, not sue. She was part of the women's only layoff that took place in a male-dominated workplace. So lots of women lost their positions, but only one made the motion toward a lawsuit.
I've only known one woman to get an EEOC "right to sue" letter, and when she received it, she used it to negotiate, not sue. She was part of the women's only layoff that took place in a male-dominated workplace. So lots of women lost their positions, but only one made the motion toward a lawsuit.
5
So how many of these "smart, helpful, energetic" women have you promoted and to what positions? Speak up, I didn't hear that part.
5
It starts very early. Who plans the prom and does the lions share of decorating? Women and a couple of gay men. Look to high school, middle school and even grade school to see this division. I always hated all that stupid centerpiece planning that women seem to love. We have to learn early to leave the crafting and the secretarial skills behind. If you really like this stuff, do it at home, not at the office. Is this fair? Probably not, but what is? I always used to say, I'm not good at making things, and I'll get too involved in the discussion to take good notes. It was true and it kept me from falling into a stereotypical hole. In addition to "leaning in" , you also have to "push back".
57
'...Is this fair? Probably not, but what is?...'
It is fair, as if a man did the same as this woman, doing the low level work, he would also not be promoted.
It is fair, as if a man did the same as this woman, doing the low level work, he would also not be promoted.
1
You reminded me of what used to happen (I hope it doesn't anymore) when I was in Jr. High and High School back in the 1950's.
Girls had to take a class in "cooking". Boys took a class called "chef". They were exactly the same.
Girls had to take a class in "cooking". Boys took a class called "chef". They were exactly the same.
8
When Adam Grant came out with Give and Take, I was very happy to see a solid argument that altruism does not necessarily turn professionals into doormats. But it also rings true that gender-and culture-play a large role in when and how giving turns into taking. So I am especially happy to see the connection between his earlier work and the latest series on women in the workplace. My freedom to give when I want to, regardless of what others think, and to nurture only whom I want, when I want, regardless of what others think, is essential to my spirit and sense of well-being.
1
Absolutely.
I tell younger women that women will be seen either as a doormat or a b*tch, so best choose the second option, as at least you will then get respect.
The worry that everyone will not like you should have been left behind in high school, yet many women sabotage their careers by wanting to be seen as 'caring and nurturing', when they should want to be seen as competent and assertive.
I tell younger women that women will be seen either as a doormat or a b*tch, so best choose the second option, as at least you will then get respect.
The worry that everyone will not like you should have been left behind in high school, yet many women sabotage their careers by wanting to be seen as 'caring and nurturing', when they should want to be seen as competent and assertive.
15
This business about up-front vs in-back helping isn't about women. Men who spend more time on these behind-the-scenes helping duties are also not getting promoted.
If you think it's essential work and needs to be done, then assign someone to do it. Or if you think the higher-ups don't understand it's importance to the company, stop doing it and see if the organization craters.
When you get promoted, you can set a different tone. Until then, you need to understand those things which are rewarded and those things which are not, and plan accordingly.
If you think it's essential work and needs to be done, then assign someone to do it. Or if you think the higher-ups don't understand it's importance to the company, stop doing it and see if the organization craters.
When you get promoted, you can set a different tone. Until then, you need to understand those things which are rewarded and those things which are not, and plan accordingly.
12
The point is that when women decline to do these tasks they are punished. If they acquiesce, they are not rewarded. Lose lose.
22
So the female manager had to give up her personal lunches to be a mentor and spend time writing a manual for others? Seems to me she still got the short end of the stick.
70
She did not have to, she chose to.
Foolishly, as anyone in business could tell you, as she showed that she did not value her own time and contributions, so why should anyone else?
Women: Do not become the Office Mom, unless that is your sole ambition in life.
Foolishly, as anyone in business could tell you, as she showed that she did not value her own time and contributions, so why should anyone else?
Women: Do not become the Office Mom, unless that is your sole ambition in life.
Thank you for writing this important series of articles and bringing light to hidden biases and behaviors-and, most importantly, suggesting ways for women and men to improve this situation so that we as a society benefit.
18
My wife and I are both professors and have virtually identical jobs and so it is easy for me (anecdotally) to see the truth in what is written here (at least in our case). My wife 'helps' in many of these same ways and it ends up that her workload seems to FAR exceed mine, even though we both do similar publishing, grant writing, and teaching. I think that speaks a lot to the idea that all this helping can really push people more quickly towards burnout. I will report though that although we had gotten identical merit raises and promotions throughout our years, the very last time she got a bigger raise than I, based specifically on all the help she had given the department. So.. at least every once in a while, in some institutions, this behavior is positively rewarded. That's the good news. From my perspective though, not sure the difference in merit raise was worth the life tradeoff/burnout factor that it took her. But - I'm a man saying that, so take it what it's worth!
74
Your wife should stop 'helping' so much, as there is no reason for others to know that she does not enjoy this role.
Or not, if she does enjoy this role, but she is the one who put herself in this position.
Or not, if she does enjoy this role, but she is the one who put herself in this position.
3
If I'm not mistaken the gist of this piece was that woman are not being rewarded for doing "stuff". Stuff here defined as that which is extraneous to your job. Coming as it does on the heals of a top female executive at Sony getting sacked for not doing her job or even responding well to this inadequacy I have to wonder who does the feature scheduling at the Sunday Review. Could it be the woman who is really super with everyone in the office but doesn't write especially well and reads even less so..... kind of a handicap in the media racket I would imagine?
3
You aren't going to change anything with words.
Observations from me, a white male senior manager (40's):
1) Women are way too quick to do the coffee work. I resist, but often want to tell them that they shouldn't (automatically volunteer).
2) I often have to encourage very smart women to speak up in meetings.
3) On the other hand, many young women have to learn how to work the office politics. Their disadvantages is that if they haven't played sports in school, they may not have the training to understand what comes off as teamwork vs. competition vs. apparent self interest (which are frequently learned by young men in sports environments). Since it's still a man's world in business, these are very valuable lessons.
4) Understanding the difference between rudeness and aggressiveness is a complex set of roles, made more complex by the fact that male-female interactions are different from m-m and f-f. There is no easy answer to this one.
5) I prefer to hire women for technical / analytical roles because they are often better workers. I find men coming in unprepared for interviews, and falling on their faces when I give them hard questions.
6) Women need to learn to stop apologizing.
That is all.
1) Women are way too quick to do the coffee work. I resist, but often want to tell them that they shouldn't (automatically volunteer).
2) I often have to encourage very smart women to speak up in meetings.
3) On the other hand, many young women have to learn how to work the office politics. Their disadvantages is that if they haven't played sports in school, they may not have the training to understand what comes off as teamwork vs. competition vs. apparent self interest (which are frequently learned by young men in sports environments). Since it's still a man's world in business, these are very valuable lessons.
4) Understanding the difference between rudeness and aggressiveness is a complex set of roles, made more complex by the fact that male-female interactions are different from m-m and f-f. There is no easy answer to this one.
5) I prefer to hire women for technical / analytical roles because they are often better workers. I find men coming in unprepared for interviews, and falling on their faces when I give them hard questions.
6) Women need to learn to stop apologizing.
That is all.
472
The old "you didn't play sports" baloney is just that. I am older than you are (white, female, early 50s) and I was a Title IX kid who played soccer, basketball, ran track, and even coached younger children for several years. That I had played high school sports (okay not college) has mattered not a bit in my career. In fact, at one large software company where I worked, a weekly basketball game among CEO and other top management never included women, but only horribly unathletic 'talent."
23
As a woman in business, I have told women that in meetings, they should never state their opinion by starting it with 'I don't know, but...' or 'I'm sorry, but...'
It is astounding that anyone, male or female, would think their opinion would be taken seriously, if they start their statement this way.
As to making coffee for everyone? Unless you were hired as a barista, not even one time, as whatever you do once, you will be expected to do over and over again.
It is astounding that anyone, male or female, would think their opinion would be taken seriously, if they start their statement this way.
As to making coffee for everyone? Unless you were hired as a barista, not even one time, as whatever you do once, you will be expected to do over and over again.
18
Notable Skeptic, you make some good points, especially that women need to stop apologizing and to stop volunteering. Now that my children are grown, I no longer volunteer and I have a more technical position. I avoid any "helping" roles at work as much as I can.
9
"By explaining that she was protecting others, she was able to say no but still seem giving and caring. After making these changes, she was promoted to partner."
In other words: better to SEEM helpful than to actually BE helpful. Great going, corporate America!
In other words: better to SEEM helpful than to actually BE helpful. Great going, corporate America!
143
As a woman working in a male dominated field (engineering), I am often asked to make copies, schedule meetings, and other administrative tasks never asked of my male peers. If you refuse, you are not a team player. If you comply, you reinforce the woman = housekeeper role. Damned if you do, dammed if you don't.
434
There is no team in take. The "team" player concept is a myth. Primarily to distract one from getting what they want. You do you. Everyone will figure it out and your work WILL stand for itself as well as your assertiveness.
10
I am an engineer with over 30 years experience. Please stop doing these things and clearly explain why to the geeks who ask you to do them. It's never going to get better if women let men get away with it. Good luck.
44
Bring in cauliflower cupcakes, that'll teach em.
10
As much as anything, work and certainly career is competition. Women are supposedly the more socially perceptive of the sexes, so please stop this focus on gender victimhood and instead pay attention to what's going on around you so you can learn to make better choices. Men do it, too.
5
I'm sure a lot of us would like to administer some gender victimhood to you, Doug, so that you too can be aware of what's going on around you and make better choices.
19
Nice! Reminds me of a male co-worker who asked me when I returned from maternity leave (and a colicky baby) 25 years ago, "If you have another baby, do you get another vacation?"
13
I agree with Doug that women, more than men, seem to get something out of feeling like victims and they must change this mindset to succeed in a career.
1
Life sure is unfair for you 1%ers.
5
As usual, the concern here is directed at executive women. But the same problem occurs all the way down the corporate ladder. At the bottom, it's really easy to ignore the contributions of a self-motivated woman and instead focus entirely on popularity.
80
At the heart of the world's troubles continues to be deeply entrenched patriarchy. Patriarchy is men's entitlement to be in charge, and the collusion of many women conditioned to agree with it. The planet will become a civilized place only when the emancipation of women eradicates the corrosiveness of testosterone-fueled patriarchy.
236
Conditioning is just learned habits and responses and becomes an excuse not to change our own behavior.
Women are our own worst enemies, as it is women who pressure me to be 'nice' in a business meeting, not men. And certainly not my male boss.
Women are our own worst enemies, as it is women who pressure me to be 'nice' in a business meeting, not men. And certainly not my male boss.
2
I know that your comment is well meant, but you speak women "being emancipated". This implies that someone (men) have to do this for them. I have a better suggestion: Let them revolt.
Don't even get me started on this one. We used to have an office manager to handle things like going-away parties, sympathy cards, cleaning out the refrigerator. But as soon as a female became leader of the team, there was suddenly no need for this office manager full time. The female boss was expected to do these chores or delegate them to another staffer (usually female also). Not only does it take time, often it costs money too. As all the little nice extras that make working more fun get cut out of the budget, I see women bosses trying to make up for it by using their own money to go out and buy treats for the staff. Men bosses rarely, if ever, do this. If they can't expense it, they are not going to do it. Don't do it, ladies. You better believe if men were the majority of teachers, there would be a budget (and probably a staff) for classroom decorations or else all the classrooms would be bare.
297
'...The female boss was expected to do these chores or delegate them to another staffer...'
But 'expected' is not the same as these tasks being part of the job description.
I once had a boss who after renovating our staff kitchen told me that me and my staff would be expected to clean it on rotation. I asked him if he really wanted to pay me and my staff all that money to clean a kitchen and he backed down.
If he had not, I would have sent my resume out.
But 'expected' is not the same as these tasks being part of the job description.
I once had a boss who after renovating our staff kitchen told me that me and my staff would be expected to clean it on rotation. I asked him if he really wanted to pay me and my staff all that money to clean a kitchen and he backed down.
If he had not, I would have sent my resume out.
8
I don't think the answer is for women to be try to be more like men but for workplaces to recognize how much they benefit from many female employees' innate conscientiousness we want to be valued for who we are. .
4
As someone who has spent forty years in corporate America, with a wife who has a successful career, and now has a working daughter, I believe this article is a wonderful encapsulation of the ways that gender stereotypes warp the careers of men and women in the workplace. It should be required reading in every office, and should be incorporated into training, mentoring, and employee evaluations. If CEOs want to reduce inefficiencies in their companies, there is no better place to start than by addressing this insanely inefficient dynamic. Hopefully in the future we will look back at today's workplace gender roles and they will seem as ridiculous to us as the world of "Mad Men" does today.
286
This article seems to put a lot of emphasis on what a woman can do and not enough on the corporate culture recognizing and working hard to change this environment. Corporations need to make reducing gender bias a higher priority. They need outside training sessions so leaders can even recognize their long held gender bias in the workplace because men and women don't like to recognize or take responsibility for their own discriminatory actions much less change them. This stuff runs very deep inside people.
Women in the workplace treat female employees just as miserably as men when they are taught to judge themselves as "less than."
Women in the workplace treat female employees just as miserably as men when they are taught to judge themselves as "less than."
105
Women in the workplace treat female employees worse than men, as they seem unaware of their own bias towards men and uncomfortable with female assertiveness.
As a woman in business, I have never had a man react badly to my assertiveness on behalf of the company. They may not like me, but as long as the project moves forward successfully to completion, that is not my problem.
This is not kindergarten and the business world is not for everyone.
As a woman in business, I have never had a man react badly to my assertiveness on behalf of the company. They may not like me, but as long as the project moves forward successfully to completion, that is not my problem.
This is not kindergarten and the business world is not for everyone.
5
In their hiring, the business world ought to be filtering for sociopathy.
15
Some would argue that that's exactly what they are doing, in reverse.
17
If women want the top jobs, positions of real power, then they are simply going to have to take them. Arguments that women are nicer than men aren't going to change anything. But bear in mind, if and when women crash the glass ceiling in a big way, the ones that do will all be 1 percenters by definition. Solve one problem, strengthen another. Or maybe, two wrongs don't make a right?
41
I disagree - if women want the top jobs they need to make them rather than take them - make them for themselves and for other women - the answer is always entrepreneurship because the current business culture is hopelessly archaic and massively inconvenient to overhaul. Real power is defining the rules of engagement not transforming one's nature to cater to a clearly broken situation.
Also what's the objection to women in the 1%? This article is deeply reassuring that they care for their teams comprehensively and carry them to greater successes.
Also what's the objection to women in the 1%? This article is deeply reassuring that they care for their teams comprehensively and carry them to greater successes.
13
joe: The only way for women to maybe get the real positions of power is being 3x times smarter and dedicated than ANY of the males competing for the job. But if as a women you are "perceived" as too aggressive (acting the same way as a man) you are out. Even then, if he is a good golf player he will beat you out of the position no matter your qualifications.
10
'...Arguments that women are nicer than men aren't going to change anything...'
Women are not 'nicer' than men.
They just want to appear to be that way, for not very healthy reasons, such as guilting others out, being a martyr, feeling sorry for themselves, feeling put upon, so forth.
If a person, male or female, really wants to sacrifice their personal happiness for others in this world, they should go for it and be happy.
But if they want to succeed in business, they need to change the way the act at work, as they are undermining their own success.
Women are not 'nicer' than men.
They just want to appear to be that way, for not very healthy reasons, such as guilting others out, being a martyr, feeling sorry for themselves, feeling put upon, so forth.
If a person, male or female, really wants to sacrifice their personal happiness for others in this world, they should go for it and be happy.
But if they want to succeed in business, they need to change the way the act at work, as they are undermining their own success.
3
I suspect part of the dynamic is that many boys grow up accustomed to their moms waiting on them and cleaning up after them; and anyone (male or female) behaving in a nurturing way towards them gets viewed as their de facto Mommy. The way to make that work both ways may be also to be to lay down the rules and send them to their rooms when they misbehave.
85
If their mothers wait on them and clean up after them, then the fault lies with the mothers, of which I am one.
Even a toddler can help out and to do so is an important part of being in a family. We all chip in and help each other.
If a mother casts herself in the role of being the maid to her entire family, she has only herself to blame.
If an adult women cannot discard this conditioning by her mother, she also has only herself to blame.
The business world is tough and not for everyone.
Even a toddler can help out and to do so is an important part of being in a family. We all chip in and help each other.
If a mother casts herself in the role of being the maid to her entire family, she has only herself to blame.
If an adult women cannot discard this conditioning by her mother, she also has only herself to blame.
The business world is tough and not for everyone.
5
I agree that a lot of the problem comes from the fact that boys grow up with their moms waiting on them and cleaning up. None only that it is mostly women doing those kind of things at school for them so ther is a deeply Internalized mental model of women as caretakers that underlies this unconscious behavior in men.
What you did not point out is that women also internalize this model and often have the same biases against other women who don't help, clean up, etc. while giving men a pass. Making home and child care and education of young children a priority for both men and women is most likely the only way to stop this unconscious bias.
What you did not point out is that women also internalize this model and often have the same biases against other women who don't help, clean up, etc. while giving men a pass. Making home and child care and education of young children a priority for both men and women is most likely the only way to stop this unconscious bias.
5
My husband was in a fraternity in college. In my opinion, one of the best things that came out of it was that the members had to do all the things that otherwise might have fallen to women - taking notes, shopping for food, organizing events, etc. I don't know if they continue to take on these tasks in their work places, but at least they can't say they 'aren't good at it' or 'don't know how'.
11
There are more women in college than men. (I don't know about graduate schools.)
If women gain an educational advantage, there will be a larger pool of qualified women than men for high-skill jobs, and more jobs will be filled by women. Logically, there will be more qualified women to move up the career ladder than men. Presumably more women in higher positions will change corporate culture.
But gender attitudes are deeply ingrained in our culture, and it may take more than numbers to see attitudes and behaviors change. 50 years after the social upheavals of the 60s, when African-Americans and women gained significant legal rights, I would have thought we would be further along. Unfortunately, there was a huge conservative reaction starting during the Reagan years, which has slowed progress significantly.
If women gain an educational advantage, there will be a larger pool of qualified women than men for high-skill jobs, and more jobs will be filled by women. Logically, there will be more qualified women to move up the career ladder than men. Presumably more women in higher positions will change corporate culture.
But gender attitudes are deeply ingrained in our culture, and it may take more than numbers to see attitudes and behaviors change. 50 years after the social upheavals of the 60s, when African-Americans and women gained significant legal rights, I would have thought we would be further along. Unfortunately, there was a huge conservative reaction starting during the Reagan years, which has slowed progress significantly.
34
I have read all of the articles by this team. The last one about women being interrupted I didn't agree with but perhaps I, along with many women, don't want to face the reality that women are still treated differently. Part of some modern career women's mind set is that sexism is something you allow yourself to be subjected to and don't spend time thinking about. But, the fact is, it is there and affects your career whether you think about it or not. Thanks, Ms. Sandberg and Mr. Grant, for a thought provoking series and I look forward to the next one.
59
I recently retired and identify with many of the descriptions in the article. However, regarding women being interrupted: What I recall most vividly is how often comments I made during meetings or at roundtable discussions later were credited to men. I.e., "As Sam said earlier, ..." or "Sam's earlier point about X and Y is really key."
18
Yes, indeed, I have the same recollection. Or when my suggestions were rejected out of hand, and the next day, they were repeated verbatim by one of the males (especially a male attorney) and were met with "What a great idea!" "Did you hear George's idea?" "We have to do that right away!" And I would sink lower and lower into my chair...
3
This is Sheryl Sandberg's and Adam Grant's second op ed piece in which they explore a breathtakingly basic aspect of women's experience in the workplace. Are we really still at the kindergarten level of conscious raising? If so, well done Sheryl and Adam, and God help us all.
161
Yes, in many ways, we are still at this level. Wonderful for you if that hasn't been your experience.
7
Sheryl is making millions telling women what we should do in the workplace. Thanks, Sheryl!
This article is so on point. Thank you for writing it. As a female executive, this very accurately describes my experience.
54
Here's a gender stereotype: women make better parents. So they get custody most of the time (66% to 88%) in a divorce. Men are then required to pay for two households, and assigned alimony and child support.
So..... we talk about the bias in the workplace that favors men or women. But we ignore its companion in how we treat men and women in the home.
There are two side to most coins, but Ms. Sandberg is aware of only one.
So..... we talk about the bias in the workplace that favors men or women. But we ignore its companion in how we treat men and women in the home.
There are two side to most coins, but Ms. Sandberg is aware of only one.
7
Ms. Sandberg and Mr. Grant chose to write about the ways bias in the workplace affect women in this article. Nothing here indicates that they are unaware of the ways gender bias affects people in other areas of life. You don't get to choose what topics they write about.
24
Actually, when men ask for custody, they are likely to receive it--they're just less likely to ask for it. Massachusetts did a five-year study of custody cases, and in 2,100 cases where men asked for custody, 29% of fathers got sole custody, and 65% got joint custody (meaning that only 7% of fathers who asked for custody didn't get it).
19
Ooooh. How patriarchal of me. I stand corrected! I remember that as I clean toilets in my home, while Ms. Sandberg's domestic staff does the same for her.
1
I think this is a problem from that begins in a women's early career. We are so keen to impress and show that we are competent that we volunteer to do menial tasks that we know that we can do well (like clean the kitchen, organize the social event sit on a committee), then it continues as we move up and become more senior - either we expect that we will do it, or our (male) colleagues a)have no idea that it needs doing because they've never done it or b) they assume that we will do it.
18
How is cleaning the kitchen showing you are competent, unless that is what you were hired to do?
Male colleagues simply assume that the women enjoys doing these kinds of things. And why wouldn't they?
It is not really that complicated. Do the job you were hired to do and do it well and, like in the Army, do not volunteer for anything.
Male colleagues simply assume that the women enjoys doing these kinds of things. And why wouldn't they?
It is not really that complicated. Do the job you were hired to do and do it well and, like in the Army, do not volunteer for anything.
2
"In the consulting firm, the female manager who was passed over for a promotion found more efficient ways to help. Instead of meeting one-on-one with dozens of junior colleagues, she began inviting mentees for group lunches."
Maybe that is why she was not promoted initially. Although helpful, she was just not efficient and organized. Being a manager in a consulting firm (and I used to be one) requires unbelievable levels of efficiency as you are managing your team, your manager, the client and everyone else who needs help. Being a partner requires even more efficiency as you are now managing several clients and teams.
I'm glad she found ways to be more efficient and I hope it paid off for her in the end.
Maybe that is why she was not promoted initially. Although helpful, she was just not efficient and organized. Being a manager in a consulting firm (and I used to be one) requires unbelievable levels of efficiency as you are managing your team, your manager, the client and everyone else who needs help. Being a partner requires even more efficiency as you are now managing several clients and teams.
I'm glad she found ways to be more efficient and I hope it paid off for her in the end.
9
I commiserate with the plight of high achieving women in the corporate workplace who are, many times, culturally, in an upper middle class, Anglo woman sense, to "lean in." The entire theme of Sheryl Sandberg's bestseller was to encourage young women to be fearless and lead the pack by taking on a leadership role within the hierarchical corporate structure.
A female CEO, on the other hand, is not one is preoccupied with bringing in cookies or other snacks for the boardroom stockholders meeting. She would, of course, having an administrative assistant hired to handle intricacies like these. The admin. asst. would be clever enough to know that most meetings like this would require healthy snacks like beautifully arranged fruit, hummus and quinoa chips and herbal green tea along with the mandatory Kenyan coffee from the local organic coffee bean shop which contributes a portion of its profits to help inner-city youth attend workshops to encourage creative thinking skills.
My point is that this article reads as if it is focused on the female interest group that is most interested in buying books like "Lean In" which point out gender barriers within corporate America although doesn't help the highly driven and materially success focused young woman learn how to become a true "gender neutral" leader. This type of information would be gleaned from reading autobiographies of high tech or creative media types recounts of their forays into the world of business leadership.
A female CEO, on the other hand, is not one is preoccupied with bringing in cookies or other snacks for the boardroom stockholders meeting. She would, of course, having an administrative assistant hired to handle intricacies like these. The admin. asst. would be clever enough to know that most meetings like this would require healthy snacks like beautifully arranged fruit, hummus and quinoa chips and herbal green tea along with the mandatory Kenyan coffee from the local organic coffee bean shop which contributes a portion of its profits to help inner-city youth attend workshops to encourage creative thinking skills.
My point is that this article reads as if it is focused on the female interest group that is most interested in buying books like "Lean In" which point out gender barriers within corporate America although doesn't help the highly driven and materially success focused young woman learn how to become a true "gender neutral" leader. This type of information would be gleaned from reading autobiographies of high tech or creative media types recounts of their forays into the world of business leadership.
2
I call them the invisible tasks and women tend to do the lion share of them at work and at home. One solution at work is to reexamine performance reviews. Do performance reviews (many of which have gender bias unconsciously embedded in them) track and reward "acts of helping?" If not, the organization may not only have a gender issue, it may have a values issue too.
36
Work is not your home. Coworkers are not your family.
Why men understand this, but not women, is bizarre.
Why men understand this, but not women, is bizarre.
1
Did you read the article, NM? Women are penalized at work whether or not they do "office housework."
5
"For women, the most important change starts with a shift in mind-set: If we want to care for others, we also need to take care of ourselves...By putting self-concern on par with concern for others, women may feel less altruistic, but they’re able to gain more influence and sustain more energy. Ultimately, they can actually give more."
My gosh, this is totally me...I care about people and genuinely want to help but have experienced massive burnout twice since 2007. A friend just told me I need to take care of myself and I know she's right but there is a part of me that definitely feels guilty about that and I can totally see how that pattern of neglecting myself to help others has been ruinous to me and in the end not very helpful to those I am trying to help! Thank you for pointing all of this out...this series is great!
My gosh, this is totally me...I care about people and genuinely want to help but have experienced massive burnout twice since 2007. A friend just told me I need to take care of myself and I know she's right but there is a part of me that definitely feels guilty about that and I can totally see how that pattern of neglecting myself to help others has been ruinous to me and in the end not very helpful to those I am trying to help! Thank you for pointing all of this out...this series is great!
8
" A friend just told me I need to take care of myself ..."
Enough of that "take care of yourself" nonsense. If I'm going the extra mile at work, I want someone ELSE to take care of me - with the promotions and pay level I deserve.
Enough of that "take care of yourself" nonsense. If I'm going the extra mile at work, I want someone ELSE to take care of me - with the promotions and pay level I deserve.
6
Women get into that Martyr Mommy mode at home and bring that attitude to work, then seem surprised that no one appreciates or rewards their efforts.
It is neurotic to feel guilty about taking care of yourself.
The worst part is that women do so because their mothers taught them this. It is women who keep women 'in their place' more than men, as mothers teach their daughters to be 'nice' from the time they are born.
It is neurotic to feel guilty about taking care of yourself.
The worst part is that women do so because their mothers taught them this. It is women who keep women 'in their place' more than men, as mothers teach their daughters to be 'nice' from the time they are born.
4
"Martyr Mommy" mode? I'm not a mother. Just maybe some of us girls are later to the party and/or further back on the learning curve with all this than you are. But I'm grateful to be having these realizations so that wrong mindsets about myself can change, so that I don't allow men to walk over me just because I'm a woman, so I don't walk around feeling guilty for looking out for and speaking up for myself, so I don't stay where I am, so I can feel and project confidence about my abilities and who I am. Growth and moving forward is the point here, right? And not everyone is at the same place along that journey.
And as far as "women do so because their mothers taught them?" Sorry, my mother didn't teach me that. Men did.
And as far as "women do so because their mothers taught them?" Sorry, my mother didn't teach me that. Men did.
2
Poor poor pitiful me. This ridiculous piece continues to give myth of women as victims. Puhleeze. It is not reflective of our wider society and reflect a tremendous "chip on the shoulder" of the authors, especially Ms. Sandberg. She is a multi-billionaire and she should stop complaining and get on with her life.
8
BTW, I forgot to mention, Ms. Sandberg, your opinion pieces are quite bossy!! :) (not to mention repetitive, whiny and so very trite playing the victim card yet again). Let me get out the world's tiniest violin for you.
1
I am so sick of all this whiney nonsense. If a person feels they aren't being treated fairly, find another job. Or better yet start your own business and run it the way you want. Hire all women if you want. If you really are better you will put the male-dominated companies out of business. It's not that complicated.
3
Right, Sun Shine, because starting one's own business is like, what, easy, and competition, the Great Amurican Way, that will make everything all better.
This is what we're working with, folks.
This is what we're working with, folks.
33
I'm sick of people who consider the oppression of half the population to be whiney nonsense. Your belief that the solution is not complicated may indicate your lack of understanding of the situation, or perhaps a dearth of mental clarity on your part.
80
"Oppression"? Hyperbole much?
"Dearth of mental clarity"? Ad hominem much?
Waiting for a substantive response...
"Dearth of mental clarity"? Ad hominem much?
Waiting for a substantive response...
1
If i could make a suggestion. Historically the reason men were paid more was that they were breadwinners for a family. It was not a bad idea. Perhaps even now the major provider for a family should be paid more. The only thing we need to change is to redefine the breadwinner as either male of female as the case may be.
I'm with this article right up to the proposed solution. What does "prioritizing your own needs" mean, exactly? Didn't you just tell us that women are punished at work for turning down any request? How are we supposed to "take care of ourselves" when just staying employed (let alone promoted) means having to jump whenever anyone - anyone at all - says jump?
133
Women are not 'punished at work for turning down any request'.
The woman in this article volunteered for all these extracurricular duties.
No one made her do so and it is not up to others to know she did not enjoy them.
The woman in this article volunteered for all these extracurricular duties.
No one made her do so and it is not up to others to know she did not enjoy them.
1
NM - Apparently you missed this line from the article: "For staying late and helping, a man was rated 14 percent more favorably than a woman. When both declined, a woman was rated 12 percent lower than a man. " How is that not punishment for turning down a request?
24
When I was in college, I was impressed by a young, attractive, brilliant, and female doctor who kept her sense of humor and dignity when her mostly-male colleagues made the mistake of underestimating her strength and abilities. Once she was scheduled to give a talk to a group of out-of-town physicians. The first few to arrive told her to 'run and get them coffee', which she proceeded to do. She then introduced herself, and thoroughly enjoyed their embarrassment. They got their own refills.
59
You describe her as "attractive"; would you have found it necessary to describe a young, brilliant male doctor as "handsome"?
2
It seems to me that most reasonable people would be willing to make changes in their management style once they have been made aware of their built-in biases. I am not from the corporate world, but why don't MBA programs and management require gender parity training along with affirmative action and other non-discrimination issues. it cannot be left solely to the human resources department. There is too much at stake.
48
In the engineering company that I work for, there are few women but I rarely (if never) find anyone taking advantage of the women present. In my mind the women who work in a male dominated field usually shine much better. My company may be an exception. Personally I would treat the women just like I would treat the men with the same level of dignity, everyone deserves. Taking advantage of a women is very sad and reflects poorly on the man who does it. Since more women are entering the work force, I would hope that we men can adjust to this change and become more inclusive.
7
This would be a non issue if women OWNED the companies. More, MANY more, women entrepreneurs are exactly what this country needs. Health care, wage equality, positive minimum wage, ma and pa ternity leave, environmental responsibility, child care, I personally think women would be far more understanding, thoughtful and amenable for the long term than men on these issues. Would profits suffer - my estimate would be that profits would not spike as high or fall as low, but no, if anything, employee longevity and satisfaction would increase along with profitability - they do go hand in hand. So who would fetch the coffee which is the real telling question you asked?? The woman owned Starbucks next door would be my guess.
14
Really? Being a female professional close to retirement age (so having the long perspective of women trying to advance in the business world), I am so weary of reports like these. The up and coming generation of female professionals needs to take heed. I despise gender wars and race wars, and all the other social battles between the "us" and "thems" of this world, but, apparently, the playing field is not yet level. As for the Chairman who asked a senior ranking woman to get him a soda, I would have let a looong pregnant moment of silence pass before I sardonically replied, "Sure. Please hold all discussion until I return."
147
Personally, I would have turned to one of those male junior executives and delegated the task. But then, I no longer work for corporations; I started my own business 17 years ago. One bonus? I never underpay myself because I'm a woman!
10
And he would have answered, "Sure. Thanks!" (while watching your rear end as you walk away)
3
I long ago noticed the tendency for women to get stuck with unrewarding organizing work and committee work on the job, and resolved never to volunteer for these tasks. I have found a happy medium in being as useful as possible to as many different departments as possible, in more "emergency" than "routine" capacities, which leaves me without any official recognition for my skills and smarts (everyone I work with assumes I work for the other group), but also has what I call the "white wire" effect - people tend to see me as a key player needed in times of emergency, sort of "don't cut the white wire, the whole thing might blow up." It is a form of job security, and I do enjoy problem-solving and helping people, but I also don't really "belong" to any core group within my company. although officially I am paid by a particular department. If you need to fee like you "belong" socially at work, I wouldn't recommend this route, but it can work out if you're a woman and like working independently.
5
amazing...and disheartening. specially if we all remember that women tend to live longer, tend to (again) give more of their time and money to help aging parents and relatives, and therefore face a much higher risk of poverty in old age.
and the problem here sometimes - as I have experienced through two decades of keen observation working for large multinationals - are women themselves. they, consciously or not, reproduce (and tolerate) many of these biases when hiring or not, promoting or not, other women.
and the problem here sometimes - as I have experienced through two decades of keen observation working for large multinationals - are women themselves. they, consciously or not, reproduce (and tolerate) many of these biases when hiring or not, promoting or not, other women.
31
Wow, talking about gender stereo types... I can say that as a woman in a managerial position I both hired and promoted other women... and men.
2
As a woman, I have experienced the worst sexism from other women and especially female bosses.
5
I appreciate this article and the series for bringing up important gender dynamics in the workplace that we don't talk about enough. Traditionally female roles and activities are undervalued and trivialized in all aspects of life. We need to change that for benefit of everyone. It's demoralizing to not have your work seen and appreciated. On the flip side, the expectations and standards around caring and cooperating among men and boys are way too low. Let's change that too. Let's continue to notice the leaders who are doing things differently and disrupting the business as usual style that favors both men and men's styles.
48
I could not agree more with the findings in this article. When I hosted meetings in my office (I was the Director), it was my nature and upbringing to try to put people at ease, to offer them coffee, to be the "hostess" not just the boss. Reactions to this approach ranged from taking me for granted to assuming I was NOT the boss to appreciation. The challenge came in times when I did not act this way -- then I was pushy, arrogant, or (as said here) not a team player. I felt like it was a no-win.
But we cannot ignore that there will always be asshats in the workplace. We all have to strive in allowing our individual leadership natures to be valued. Not all women are nurturing and not all men are no-nonsense. If you are not valued for your true nature, then the long process of thinking if you work in the right place has to happen.
But we cannot ignore that there will always be asshats in the workplace. We all have to strive in allowing our individual leadership natures to be valued. Not all women are nurturing and not all men are no-nonsense. If you are not valued for your true nature, then the long process of thinking if you work in the right place has to happen.
39
'...I felt like it was a no-win...'
You created this environment by playing 'hostess' in a work setting, as if it was your home, then seem surprised that you were not treated with respect, but as a servant.
You did this to yourself, so best ask if it is 'in your nature' to be a servant.
The personal is *not* the political.
You created this environment by playing 'hostess' in a work setting, as if it was your home, then seem surprised that you were not treated with respect, but as a servant.
You did this to yourself, so best ask if it is 'in your nature' to be a servant.
The personal is *not* the political.
1
Well articulated. Women have traditionally been "the nurturers" in our society, and certain expectations (in the "caregiving" category) fall first to women. As the article points out, men can contribute in this area too, to balance out energy output from both genders. Women can also summon courage and strength to say no when they don't feel inclined to do something asked of them. More women need to be true to themselves and say "No, sorry, but I can't." Let the chips fall where they may....
12
Don't work in business if you do not have a lot of 'courage and strength'.
True for women, as for men.
True for women, as for men.
You remind me that when I worked for a corporation, the professionals around the secretarial bay were required to answer the secretary's phone when she wasn't there. Most of the professionals around that bay happened to be female. But here's the kicker: I had been told on a previous job appraisal that my eagerness to help out was unprofessional and looked secretarial (I had risen up the ranks from secretarial) so when I explained that requiring me to answer the phone was putting in a bind, I was rebuked.
Now, as I am reading these articles and various books about how a female's gender is held against them in the workplace, I am realizing that I had personalized these issues and thought I was at fault. Now I see that our society is at fault.
Thanks for these great articles!
Now, as I am reading these articles and various books about how a female's gender is held against them in the workplace, I am realizing that I had personalized these issues and thought I was at fault. Now I see that our society is at fault.
Thanks for these great articles!
117
'... am realizing that I had personalized these issues and thought I was at fault. Now I see that our society is at fault...'
You were at fault, not society.
You over-explained, which made it all about your 'feelings', which is unprofessional, when you should have simply asked if this would be an ongoing part of your job.
If the answer was 'Yes', then you had a choice of staying or looking for another job.
Blaming 'society' or 'the patriarchy' is just another way that women avoid responsibility for their choices in life.
You were at fault, not society.
You over-explained, which made it all about your 'feelings', which is unprofessional, when you should have simply asked if this would be an ongoing part of your job.
If the answer was 'Yes', then you had a choice of staying or looking for another job.
Blaming 'society' or 'the patriarchy' is just another way that women avoid responsibility for their choices in life.
NM, Let me clarify. I was a computer programmer; not a secretary. I was being asked to stand-in for the secretary along with 4 or 5 other women. That helpfulness, which seemed to be required would be held against me--the whole point of this article. I should not be penalized and lose my time with my company because of rampant sexism.
11
As a woman CEO, I can attest to having experienced the effect described by the study over the course of my career. It is often good natured and unconscious, probably more entrenched among older colleagues and among European companies. I have learned to live with this and other stereotypical attitudes, and work to make sure that I am viewed on an equal footing with my male colleagues. Admittedly, it is a delicate balance to maintain, especially among those of us who are married with children, who are seen as a "second" salary, with other predominating responsibilities.
174
It may be unconscious among older men, but in my experience, competitive younger men deliberately use this dynamic to undermine talented female colleagues -- because it is easy, because senior managers are so blind to it, and because they are never held accountable for it.
14
Thank you for this article, NYT. Just as we are sometimes told that we live in a "post-racial" world, we are also told we are in a "post-feminist" world as well. While things are better, we still have a long way to go.
And although I doubt that these articles will have any earth-shaking impact, it will likely affect a number of people. Advances in equality and freedom are always too slow, but at least we seem to be going in the right direction.
And although I doubt that these articles will have any earth-shaking impact, it will likely affect a number of people. Advances in equality and freedom are always too slow, but at least we seem to be going in the right direction.
19
I don't even have to work to be accused of being selfish. To my mother, my brothers are busy and me and my sisters are selfish. It's not just in the workplace.
264
Exactly. I think it's important to recognize that we all buy into these stereotypes, women as well as men. It goes along with the discussion about black and white cops, and how black cops, in general, also perceive black men as a higher threat than white men -- this is how we've all been trained as a society. Nothing will change until we recognize it and talk about it. Thanks to the authors for contributing to the discussion.
15
I was just about to post something almost exactly like this comment. My mother expects me to drive the 100 miles between my home and hers to help her with family dinners, housework and paperwork. My brother, who lives 3 miles from her, tells us both he's willing to help; but when I suggest she ask him for help, she tells me she hates to bother him because he's busy working. My full-time supervisory position at a university, that takes up at least 50 hours per week of my time, just doesn't stack up against any man's job.
94
Seriously. And God forbid if you are female and self-employed and your male relatives have "respectable" office gigs. Doesn't matter that you get paid by the project and they get paid no matter what--you better be available 24/7 to listen to relatives/friends' problems, give the latter shoulders to cry on, and do whatever random nuturing comes up, else you're selfish and "not there for them enough."
10
Whenever I'm running a meeting and notes need taking, a random number generator picks the person who does it. No possible bias.
30
But women make much better cupcakes...
1
What a gross, flippant comment. Why don't you go take a baking class and brush up on your skills?
14
Very simply, as long as money and profit are the ultra-primary goals this will continue. Sharks eat each other. Investors sell and resell companies, and strip the assets, with no care or interest for the pain it causes others - as long as they make a profit. Only using both qualitative and quantitative measures will change the workplace. Women have to fight for what they want - don't behave like a secretary/personal assistant unless that is the role you want. Offer to get your boss, and others in the room, a cup of coffee when you get one for yourself just as you would expect your boss, and others in the room, to do for you.
37
Apparently you didn't read the article, but skimmed it. It points out (as many of us women who have btdt have experienced) that if a woman behaves as men do and declines to behave like the group secretary, standing up for herself, she is perceived as less of a team player. This has been going on forever and has not changed in at least the 40 years that I have been in the workplace. Your comments reflect the "solution" most men almost always offer. And also reflect the casual glance most men give to any articles, symposia, etc. on women in the workplace.
127
You missed the major point of the article, which is that we as a society need to understand our biases against women in order to begin changing them. If women are perceived as 'fighting' for what they want, they'll be denigrated for it, by both men and women, and called names we all know. THAT is what needs to change - the negative consequences for speaking up and acting in one's own interest.
70
If a female, gay or transgendered person wants to climb the corporate ladder and break the glass ceiling she needs to have an intuitive sense of how to navigate social situations as well as talent as a natural leader. Someone who is outside the "in group" due to her gender needs to make inroads by having a solid background in her field and a Steve Job's like visionary gift to demand the respect and admiration of her corporate peers. This requires a high degree of business acumen and well as the ability to stay above the fray of office politics and bickering.
3