In China similar operators charge even more to create overseas internships to 'build a village school in Africa' and the like. The money would be MUCH better spent donated to the cause , not a 5-star vacation to pad your resume. However Ivy League schools are fooled every time.
4
There's another option that is also worth considering: Instead of taking an internship, go to China and become an English teacher. For college graduates, this is one of the best options when it comes to paying off student debt and gaining international work experience.
You can earn $24-$40 dollars an hour and you don't need any teaching certifications and you don't need to speak Chinese! Combine that with a low cost of living in China and you have a formula for success. Imagine paying off your student loans in less than 2-3 years and being able to move forward without the burden of long-term debt.
Why be a pawn in the student-internship scheme where you end up owing money? Teaching English in China enables you to work in a country with unlimited business opportunities that can shape your career for the long term.
It's very easy to save money by working in China. You can save as much as $100,000 dollars in 3 years, then start your own business, or save for retirement, etc.
There are very few jobs with as many great options as teaching English in China. Take some time to consider it and you may just find it to be your best plan for the future.
You can earn $24-$40 dollars an hour and you don't need any teaching certifications and you don't need to speak Chinese! Combine that with a low cost of living in China and you have a formula for success. Imagine paying off your student loans in less than 2-3 years and being able to move forward without the burden of long-term debt.
Why be a pawn in the student-internship scheme where you end up owing money? Teaching English in China enables you to work in a country with unlimited business opportunities that can shape your career for the long term.
It's very easy to save money by working in China. You can save as much as $100,000 dollars in 3 years, then start your own business, or save for retirement, etc.
There are very few jobs with as many great options as teaching English in China. Take some time to consider it and you may just find it to be your best plan for the future.
8
What happened to just backpacking through Europe for the summer? If you want to be an asset to any business operation, then get the degree/education that business needs. Paying $10K for a 3-month world tour sounds much more enlightening than a 3-month stint in a pub in Ireland. However, if that Irish pub internship includes unlimited free beer, then by all means, Sláinte!!!!
2
I believe the situation is quite different for students in STEM fields. In the summer of 2013, I interned in Zurich, Switzerland at an engineering firm. The company that sponsored my visa charged a small fee (~$200 USD) and a small portion of the salary that the agency requires employers to pay students. The salary was not large but it was consistent with the "minimum wage" in Switzerland which was sufficient to pay for room and board, food and some travel. If you are a student in a STEM field I encourage you to look at IAESTE.
6
I don't agree with the whole internship (stage) mania. However, the cost that private companies and universities charge are for a whole host of services: housing, college credit - which depending on one's school and tuition could be a couple thousand dollars alone, insurance, vetting of both the internship provider and student and most fundamental the visa - lest we forget. In addition, because universities and parents are specialized in hand-holding they want, expect and demand that nothing be left to chance and this is carefully coordinated in order for students and their families to be able to access loans and aid to pay the bill. People have said, why not do it yourself? Naturally there is still a cost but a student can't access funding for that and 99% of the schools will not recognize any sort of credit. The system has been increasingly set up to force students into the corporate study abroad model connected with grants, loans and aid. An average semester that costs $20,000 in any major Euro capital could be exchanged for a four month stint at a language school either private or part of a university for about $5 - 10,000 (imagine if you went outside of the Eurailpass zone) with at least a clear benefit of perhaps learning a language and acquiring a tangible skill. ( Hey, they should just get credit for being there, no? )
2
Well, if you are doing internships that actually matter to the company, as in you are providing them value and not the other way around, they will still pay you handsomely for it. For example, I interned at Amazon in 2011 and they paid us engineers $5800 per month. Today, it's even more with the big tech companies in the valley like Google and FB, they're paying up to $8000 per month plus housing.
5
Do international intern providers charge more than study abroad programs for the same "bells and whistles?" Nope: http://goo.gl/DqHfK5
1
A wise old saying about how to start a successful productive life (vs conduct a well-managed "education life", what we're actually discussing here) goes: "find a need and fill it."
It's hard; perhaps the hardest thing in the world for anyone confined to an institutionalized environment (aka "school") since the age of 5. But paying strangers to, essentially, buy access to an already established, functioning organization strikes me as an end run around the problem that short-circuits that crucial "finding" process.
Think of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, two individuals who completely changed our world and how the 20th Century played out. Did either intern anywhere? Or pay anyone for opportunity? I don't think so. They just thought it up and did it.
As President Lincoln wrote to a talented but troublesome and wayward general (Hooker) " ... beware of rashness, but with energy, and sleepless vigilance, go forward, and give us victories."
It's hard; perhaps the hardest thing in the world for anyone confined to an institutionalized environment (aka "school") since the age of 5. But paying strangers to, essentially, buy access to an already established, functioning organization strikes me as an end run around the problem that short-circuits that crucial "finding" process.
Think of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, two individuals who completely changed our world and how the 20th Century played out. Did either intern anywhere? Or pay anyone for opportunity? I don't think so. They just thought it up and did it.
As President Lincoln wrote to a talented but troublesome and wayward general (Hooker) " ... beware of rashness, but with energy, and sleepless vigilance, go forward, and give us victories."
3
My kids, both of whom graduated from university in this century, could not afford to NOT work for real money both during the school year and in summer. They were, however, astute enough to realize that they might as well get jobs that would provide some experience in their chosen fields: business and medicine. One worked for a stockbroker; the other in a cancer research lab. Great resume builders. They both have satisfying careers today and have spent time abroad for work and pleasure. This article feeds into parental anxieties that parents aren't doing enough to help their kids get a leg up.
7
Many of the commenters appear to be entirely unfamiliar with US study abroad and international internship programs practice and with student participation rates in these programs. According to NASFA, fewer than 10 percent of all US undergraduates participate in any form of international program with only one percent of participating in international internship programs.
Clearly, this does not pose any real "threat" of competition with students who are unable to afford to undertake an international placement.
University based study abroad programs often offer the option of an internship placement, most of these placements are limited to firms where English is the language of business. Students generally choose to attend these programs because they are eligible for financial aid and they provide advising, visa, and housing assistance. Unfortunately, the operational and administrative costs to run these programs is high.
While it is possible for students to find their own placements, obtain a visa, insurance, and housing in a foreign country, in reality this is just not feasible for even fluently multilingual students.
In addtion, many commenters seem to feel that gaining work experience in a business setting is "slave labour" and these students should be compensated. These people would not have the faintest idea of the difficulty in supporting a 19 student (who need constant supervision and have no skills) in this environment.
Clearly, this does not pose any real "threat" of competition with students who are unable to afford to undertake an international placement.
University based study abroad programs often offer the option of an internship placement, most of these placements are limited to firms where English is the language of business. Students generally choose to attend these programs because they are eligible for financial aid and they provide advising, visa, and housing assistance. Unfortunately, the operational and administrative costs to run these programs is high.
While it is possible for students to find their own placements, obtain a visa, insurance, and housing in a foreign country, in reality this is just not feasible for even fluently multilingual students.
In addtion, many commenters seem to feel that gaining work experience in a business setting is "slave labour" and these students should be compensated. These people would not have the faintest idea of the difficulty in supporting a 19 student (who need constant supervision and have no skills) in this environment.
1
"These people would not have the faintest idea of the difficulty in supporting a 19 student (who need constant supervision and have no skills) in this environment."
A 19-year-old who requires constant supervision and has no skills needs a sharp kick in the rear.
A 19-year-old who requires constant supervision and has no skills needs a sharp kick in the rear.
1
It IS possible for a student to find a paying internship, get a visa and insurance, and find housing in a foreign country ... but the student needs some kind of introduction or connection in the first place. Extremely difficult, but not impossible.
Meh. When I was 20, I got burnt out and dropped out of college for two years. I paid $300 for a year-long student work visa in New Zealand, a couple thousand for an around-the-world plane ticket, and spent the next couple years traveling and working in bookstores and coffee shops (when my first year was up, I applied for another work visa to Australia). I think I learned more in that time than I would have in a two-month, coddled, high-priced internship. I came back refreshed, with a major perspective shift, and finished up college and grad school.
6
Back in the early 90s I decided to fulfill a a dream to live and work in China. I had years of corporate experience but no classroom teaching. I took a 120 hour course (one month) in teaching ESL and found a job at a small teacher's college in Guangzhou which offered airfare, housing and about $75 a week; Chinese teachers then earned $15 a week plus housing. When I arrived, I found a program affiliated with an Ivy League institution which charged $3500 and had recruited about 15 recent American college graduates for jobs in middle schools. The program supplied airfare and a guaranteed job with housing, one week's part time instruction teaching English and a small stipend. I eventually met many of these participants, all from families that could well afford the fee. Unfortunately, about one third left after a few months; the culture shock was too much for them. Times have certainly changed but I don't think any 18 year old should undertake an internship in a developing country for the adventure and resume building. It's supposed to be a shared cultural experience.
2
I went to summer school two years in a row so I could graduate high school early and participate in a Rotary exchange program that put me in Belgium for one year with a host family. I attended a local high school there and started college the following year, on time, thanks to the early graduation. The only expense was the cost of the airline ticket. In college, I spent a year in the UK on a university exchange where I attended school for college credit worked a local job in a sausage factory! The cost was the plane ticket, plus room and board in the univerity's dorms. I'm from a small town in Ohio, the daughter of a school teacher and a machinist, so no big bucks in my family. I'm guessing the people that are paying top dollar are doing it so they can put a "brand" name on their resume. All of my employers have been impressed with my experience abroad, and the lessons I learned included flexibility, adaptability, etc.
2
If I were hiring, I'd be much more likely to hire someone who found their own internship or who joined the Peace Corps or an NGO than someone whose parents paid ten grand so they wouldn't have to live on their own or do the scut work of actually finding a position.
2
I know this isn't 100% relevant, but I am a junior in college trying to network before graduation. I was able to get a paid summer internship in my homestate last summer, but I've even noticed there are less paid internships this year, and with a deduction in pay.
Anyways, while I was networking, I had one company tell me that my paid internship and any future ones are great and all, but that expect to be looking at 1-3 years unpaid internships, (maybe you can find paid ones?!) after graduation before I qualify for an entry level job in the field. I then began to talk to alums in the field to find a handful of of them were still volunteering or working unpaid internships living at home for these companies waiting for an entry level job. One girl was in her third year of doing so. Needless to say, I dropped that major and am going towards another path. Someone mentioned they hope this isn't the norm in 20 years, and I sure hope not, either.
Anyways, while I was networking, I had one company tell me that my paid internship and any future ones are great and all, but that expect to be looking at 1-3 years unpaid internships, (maybe you can find paid ones?!) after graduation before I qualify for an entry level job in the field. I then began to talk to alums in the field to find a handful of of them were still volunteering or working unpaid internships living at home for these companies waiting for an entry level job. One girl was in her third year of doing so. Needless to say, I dropped that major and am going towards another path. Someone mentioned they hope this isn't the norm in 20 years, and I sure hope not, either.
4
$10,000?? That's nuts, and people who think they have to spend that much on an internship deserve to be ripped off by some "internship agency".
I'm currently doing a 10-week internship in Berlin, Germany, and here's what it cost me:
-$1,800 flights
-$1,500 housing
+$1,450 pay
_____________________
= -$1,850 total
I'm currently doing a 10-week internship in Berlin, Germany, and here's what it cost me:
-$1,800 flights
-$1,500 housing
+$1,450 pay
_____________________
= -$1,850 total
2
Want to give your employees more flexibility and time off during the summer, but need coverage? Easy! Just dangle an unpaid "internship" in front of college students desperate for ANY work experience on their resumes. You can have a bright, motivated, educated employee to answer phones, run to the post office or bank, file, etc, at no out of pocket cost! Plus you are doing the "intern" a favor by allowing him or her to put your company's name on his/her CV. They can position your smalltown ad agency as a "media company" or your insurance brokerage as "financial services." A win/win situation! Why pay even minimum wage (to help with their college expenses) when they are eager to work for free?
3
This is absolutely insane. People should be paid for work. Period. Low paying entry level jobs used to serve this purpose. But now the low paying jobs are the norm, and people are expected to work for free to "gain experience." What's next?
6
I picture more "leaders" jacked up on false confidence spewing buzz words instead of ideas.
I took a history class on WW1 and our professor took us to the Somme, and the Ardennes and we saw the trenches and scoured the battlefields in France. We also tutored a winery and the Remy Martin distillery . The cost of the trip was nineteen dollars for the textbook. Of course I was in the Navy at the time and taking a college course offered for free. When we went to Greece, we talked about Athens and Sparta on the Partheon.
I wised up to the internship racket decades ago when I was in graduate school and wondering whether I really wanted to go into academia. I checked out the job advertisements in the placement office and couldn't help noticing how many major corporations, law offices, financial institutions, and yes, media outlets, were offering unpaid internships in places like New York and Washington D.C.
It took me about five seconds of thought to understand that this was a form of class gatekeeping, because only students with affluent parents could afford to spend their summers in major East Coast cities while earning no money.
Shame on the major businesses and institutions that perpetuate this type of barrier to upward mobility.
It took me about five seconds of thought to understand that this was a form of class gatekeeping, because only students with affluent parents could afford to spend their summers in major East Coast cities while earning no money.
Shame on the major businesses and institutions that perpetuate this type of barrier to upward mobility.
6
Love this quote: "... China doesn’t want a Chinese company paying American kids to do what Chinese kids can do.”
2
I'm not sure that young people always understand how the wage structure is supposed to work. I realize that the Ayn Randian nonsense of the last couple of decades has been working hard to wreck that same structure but...I also suspect that these students have never had a conversation with the older generations about the normal progression from school to entry-level jobs.
Sure, 20yo's are tech-savvy but they're very naive in other areas. This upside-down world we're currently in is all they know. If their parents are at-odds/busy/stressed and the grands live across the country, all the perspective they're getting is from guidance counselors and 'advertorials'. No wonder they're buying this garbage.
Sure, 20yo's are tech-savvy but they're very naive in other areas. This upside-down world we're currently in is all they know. If their parents are at-odds/busy/stressed and the grands live across the country, all the perspective they're getting is from guidance counselors and 'advertorials'. No wonder they're buying this garbage.
2
When I graduated nearly 25 years ago with a business degree, I had completed 5 paid work terms : 4 months each paid at national industrial average wages). Along with scholarships the "co-op" work study program entirely financed my degree, so once done I had a job offer and was debt free when I started working 6 months later. I could have started earlier but negociated a later start to take a language course and travel to use it. I haven't been involuntarily out of a job since then.
I don't have a rich uncle and my parents couldn't finance my education even when, in real terms, tuition was also a fraction of what it was today. I'm not sure I could have gone to university under current conditions, or whether I would have chosen to do so if I could. Probably would have signed up to be a soldier rather than take on all that debt and risk. Even if I had done so the debt would have forced me into more conservative choices.
The whole internship scam seems very unhealthy to me. Rotten to the core would be a better word.
I don't have a rich uncle and my parents couldn't finance my education even when, in real terms, tuition was also a fraction of what it was today. I'm not sure I could have gone to university under current conditions, or whether I would have chosen to do so if I could. Probably would have signed up to be a soldier rather than take on all that debt and risk. Even if I had done so the debt would have forced me into more conservative choices.
The whole internship scam seems very unhealthy to me. Rotten to the core would be a better word.
5
I wept when reading about the intern whose less than ideal Paris homestay resulted, sometimes, in being served frozen meals.
3
I studied abroad for a full school year, in two different French cities. In each city I took classes, with native French students, at the local university. The second semester I had an internship (2 days/week) with a French software company from which I gained more experience than I have from some of my American jobs. The internship taught me as much about French culture as my homestays, and helped outline a possible career path. And my scholarship from my U.S. university transferred. To anyone interested in studying abroad in France, I highly recommend the Sweet Briar Program. Yes, there is that all-too-common problem of paying thousand$ for the same classes Euros get for cheap, but it includes additional program courses, host families (and most meals), many excursions, and a wonderfully supportive staff and office in Paris. The internship didn't cost anything extra; I paid the same fee that kids who didn't intern paid.
Re: internships abroad: Make sure the internship experience is one you could not have in your hometown/the U.S. Duh.
Re: internships abroad: Make sure the internship experience is one you could not have in your hometown/the U.S. Duh.
4
A few years from now, those students who took out federal loans to fund their suspect summer “internships” abroad will be complaining about how paying back those loans is burdensome and unfair.
11
Ya see, the sad thing about a guy like you is that in 50 years your gonna start doing some thinkin of your own and you're gonna realize that there are two certainties in life: one: don't do that. And two: you dropped a 150 grand on an education that you could have gotten with a $1.50 worth of late charges at the public library.
Good Will Hunting
Good Will Hunting
4
I'm a university alum and back during my time at school internships were commonplace. I have one simple solution to this overseas internship problem; find an internship in a city near your home - why do people feel as if they're entitled to overseas internships? When I was hired out of college my employer definitely didn't require international internship experience - but maybe the job market has changed since I graduated and employers are looking specifically for international experience (btw - I graduated in 2014)
4
I'm baffled as to why these college kids are paying to do these internships.
If someone is not willing to pay them for the work, then the work is not worth their time or effort. At the very least, they should demand the employers to pay for room and board. I don't think it's right that they are willing to sell themselves cheap, in this case, they're actually paying to do the work. It's ridiculous to say the least!
If someone is not willing to pay them for the work, then the work is not worth their time or effort. At the very least, they should demand the employers to pay for room and board. I don't think it's right that they are willing to sell themselves cheap, in this case, they're actually paying to do the work. It's ridiculous to say the least!
7
Unpaid internships are modern day slave labor. Period. I don't know what's more disgusting, that they've become the norm or that they're even legal.
9
This paying-for-international-internships system favors people who come from wealthy families. If two students have similar skills, experience and intelligence, but one comes from a family that can pay the $10,000 that it costs for an international internship, then that student will be better qualified for jobs once he graduates, simply because of his family's money.
And cases like Ms. Cheung's will be a rarity. She was able to pay for her internship despite coming from a low-income household largely because she got a grant "that's available to 2,300 students a year." I don't know how many students will lose well-deserved academic opportunities because of their family's finances, but it probably is more than 2,300.
And cases like Ms. Cheung's will be a rarity. She was able to pay for her internship despite coming from a low-income household largely because she got a grant "that's available to 2,300 students a year." I don't know how many students will lose well-deserved academic opportunities because of their family's finances, but it probably is more than 2,300.
5
Seriously, this article is ridiculous.
Firstly, nothing preserves privilege and the wealth structure of America like "unpaid internships" for paid college credit. I graduated from college 5 years ago, and during that time, I never had a summer job that wasn't for pay (although my sister had some "unpaid internships" for government offices that were tantamount to glorified coffee making).
The other problem is that the experiences that these students seem to be having would be more appropriate for a 15-year-old. Needing someone to organise housing and weekend trips for adults is absurd.
And finally, I did not study abroad, but I did choose to attend graduate school abroad, at a proper university, and I've continued to work in Europe ever since. But ever study abroad experience I heard about, once again, sounded like glorified summer camp.
Firstly, nothing preserves privilege and the wealth structure of America like "unpaid internships" for paid college credit. I graduated from college 5 years ago, and during that time, I never had a summer job that wasn't for pay (although my sister had some "unpaid internships" for government offices that were tantamount to glorified coffee making).
The other problem is that the experiences that these students seem to be having would be more appropriate for a 15-year-old. Needing someone to organise housing and weekend trips for adults is absurd.
And finally, I did not study abroad, but I did choose to attend graduate school abroad, at a proper university, and I've continued to work in Europe ever since. But ever study abroad experience I heard about, once again, sounded like glorified summer camp.
10
Ever heard about indentured servitude? I object to all of this... Can you spell EXPLOITATION?? Overpaid and overpaid... and then we don't want to pay taxes either... Colleges should NOT give credit for or encourage unpaid internships IMO... How much do the heads of these companies granting internships earn per annum??
5
This is reminiscent of "volunteer abroad" programs, inluding those run by Road Scholar for older folks, where you have to pay a hefty fee, plus housing and transportation to go "do good."
5
The Paris living experience that was presented as if it was traumatizing for the intern sounds like just another ordinary day here. Argue, eat frozen dinners (these can be upscale) and walk home on poorly lit sidewalks. I don't know if it was worth 10,000 dollars, but at least it was authentic!
14
In the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee's Global Studies BA degree program, students are required to intern abroad. We're an access institution, so most of our students are under significant financial pressure, working their way through school, and do not use what we call "third-party internship providers" due to the expense. (Of course, there are still significant costs associated with interning abroad (unpaid), and many students intern while they are studying abroad already, or tag on an internship following their study abroad. They seek internships independently with some guidance from their academic advisors (however, we definitely don't "place" them). While interning, they enroll in an online course that requires them to develop internship learning goals, post weekly in their online journal, and submit an internship portfolio when they return.
More often than not, our students cite their internships abroad as the most transformative and valuable part of their undergraduate experience. They sometimes struggle finding their internships but they are legitimately able to "boast" about their internships since it is not easy to secure and complete an internship abroad, in an environment where more often than not, they are also putting their foreign language skills to use!
Examples of some of the internships UW-Milwaukee Global Studies students have completed are here:
http://www4.uwm.edu/cie/currentstudents/1084/
More often than not, our students cite their internships abroad as the most transformative and valuable part of their undergraduate experience. They sometimes struggle finding their internships but they are legitimately able to "boast" about their internships since it is not easy to secure and complete an internship abroad, in an environment where more often than not, they are also putting their foreign language skills to use!
Examples of some of the internships UW-Milwaukee Global Studies students have completed are here:
http://www4.uwm.edu/cie/currentstudents/1084/
10
People talk about how study abroad is expensive. It really isn't. It only is expensive if you go through the traditional American university abroad programs, which are literally just extensions of US universities. There are many fine universities, particularly in Europe, that cost far less than American universities and offer great international experiences in a truly immersive environment. All it takes is arranging to be an exchange/fee-paying student for a semester and in many instances it can save you money or cost you the same.
As far as working internationally to gain experience I don't see the sense in paying any more than a nominal fee to go. There are plenty of teaching programs, for example, that pay you to live in those countries and teach English. Paying $6,000 to help manage an art festival.... I just don't see the sense, unless money is not an issue for you whatsoever.
As far as working internationally to gain experience I don't see the sense in paying any more than a nominal fee to go. There are plenty of teaching programs, for example, that pay you to live in those countries and teach English. Paying $6,000 to help manage an art festival.... I just don't see the sense, unless money is not an issue for you whatsoever.
5
Good lord. My summer internship in 1976 was self-funded from my p/t university library job during the school year. Although I was part of a University of Michigan internship program, I found my internship myself at a non-profit organization whose focus and work interested me.
After I ran out of money and told my boss at the organization that I had to leave before the summer was over, they found $100/week to pay me so I could stay another month.
No tea or coffee was served, and I don't remember what I ate.
After I ran out of money and told my boss at the organization that I had to leave before the summer was over, they found $100/week to pay me so I could stay another month.
No tea or coffee was served, and I don't remember what I ate.
3
In 2007 my daughter studied in Paris for the year, living with a French host and signing a pledge to her college (Smith) to speak only French while in France - including with the other students in the Smith Study Abroad program. In the late spring she skyped her dad and I asking for permission to stay for the summer and intern at Sotherbys in Paris. She lived in a "shoebox" in a borderline neighborhood with a shared hallway bathroom. It was what she could afford from her babysitting job that she held all year. At the auction house she did project work and helped out with the summer Impressionists auction by manning the private investor line from Japan. Her study of Japanese while in high school, helped her land that assignment. She worked hard that summer and sacrificed much by way of living arrangements and pocket money to do it. She used her own connections and shoe leather to land the internship and it didn't cost her dad or I a dime. I still don't know if she had a salary at Sotherbys, if she did it was minimal. Her dad and I are proud of her for her grit, determination and passion. She now has her M.A. in Cello Performance and performs and has a thriving cello teaching studio in NYC. She believes that motivation, practice and independence are key in anyone's artistic, academic and business success. So do we.
8
I am very distressed that as the infrastructure of the USA falls apart, money is diverted from taxes ( just can't pay those taxes) to pay for this kind of nonsense.
4
Finding a paying internship abroad is absolutely possible! I spent last summer with an amazing company in a Nordic country. Housing was provided, along with a stipend that covered my living expenses and paid back my travel expenses (that I paid for with waitressing money) and the money my parents sent me over with. If I had the resources to pay for all of that on my own, I would have just taken language classes. I was also able to supplement my living with a little freelance writing. A close friend spent her summer abroad in London working for an oil company and she was very well compensated. If you're prepared to work you can absolutely find something worthwhile without incurring a ton of debt!
5
"Federal financial aid can be applied as well...it can be used only for coursework that counts toward a degree. (Many universities will give academic credit for internships, whether they have an academic component or not.)"
Although not an internship, I studied abroad in France the fall of my senior year. Each previous year, I had been granted full financial aid from UC Berkeley, but, as stated in the article, would only have received financial aid for my study abroad if the coursework counted towards my degree. I did receive Berkeley credit for my classes taken abroad, but there was a catch to receiving the financial aid. My coursework abroad was not considered necessary for my degree because I had already completed enough units to graduate, due to AP credits that transferred and a heavy course load my first three years. I would have received financial aid had I remained at Berkeley as it was only my 7th semester, but because I had already taken so many classes, I was unable to receive financial aid abroad.
I'm not sure if this is a common problem at other universities, but it seemed unfair to deny me financial aid because I had been an overachiever, particularly when I would have received the aid if I hadn't been such a proactive student. Perhaps the university was simply exercising one of its techniques to deny students financial aid for a myriad of peculiar reasons.
Although not an internship, I studied abroad in France the fall of my senior year. Each previous year, I had been granted full financial aid from UC Berkeley, but, as stated in the article, would only have received financial aid for my study abroad if the coursework counted towards my degree. I did receive Berkeley credit for my classes taken abroad, but there was a catch to receiving the financial aid. My coursework abroad was not considered necessary for my degree because I had already completed enough units to graduate, due to AP credits that transferred and a heavy course load my first three years. I would have received financial aid had I remained at Berkeley as it was only my 7th semester, but because I had already taken so many classes, I was unable to receive financial aid abroad.
I'm not sure if this is a common problem at other universities, but it seemed unfair to deny me financial aid because I had been an overachiever, particularly when I would have received the aid if I hadn't been such a proactive student. Perhaps the university was simply exercising one of its techniques to deny students financial aid for a myriad of peculiar reasons.
3
In many states, state universities are under pressure to see that students graduate when they have enough credits to graduate--and not extend their educations beyond that. I think that's what Berkeley was doing: you had enough credits to graduate and they thought financial aid should go to students who were not extending their educations beyond what was needed for their degrees. On the other side of the coin, I ran into students at the private university where I taught who I realized were staying in school just to keep getting financial aid. Not many, but a few. It turned out that one charming guy had previously spent an extended visit in a different kind of financial institution--for fraud. I'm don't think that's what you were doing, but that may have been what Berkeley was trying to avoid.
1
So,why are our children being gouged by their schools, host companies, and internship providers? A couple of reasons.
First, we the people, have chosen not to fund public universities, effectively forcing them into a for profit "posture". Gouging your child is one of the unseemly bottom line actions taken to replace the public support they got in the past. (Don't think so? When was the last time you voted for a 10% increase in the sales tax, property tax, or state income tax to support your public universities?)
Second, labor is expensive, and employers are in the business of lowering their costs. No pay internships are the canary in the coal mine. Think of them as an aspirational goal for employers: an ideal world without labor costs.
Third, the cost of entry into the middle class keeps going up. Perhaps, in 20 years, a year or two of unpaid labor will be the norm for entry level qualification for "good" jobs.
Unpaid internships are just so much noise distracting us from the economic sand draining away from under all our children's feet.
First, we the people, have chosen not to fund public universities, effectively forcing them into a for profit "posture". Gouging your child is one of the unseemly bottom line actions taken to replace the public support they got in the past. (Don't think so? When was the last time you voted for a 10% increase in the sales tax, property tax, or state income tax to support your public universities?)
Second, labor is expensive, and employers are in the business of lowering their costs. No pay internships are the canary in the coal mine. Think of them as an aspirational goal for employers: an ideal world without labor costs.
Third, the cost of entry into the middle class keeps going up. Perhaps, in 20 years, a year or two of unpaid labor will be the norm for entry level qualification for "good" jobs.
Unpaid internships are just so much noise distracting us from the economic sand draining away from under all our children's feet.
9
US citizens aged 18-30 can apply for 12-month "working holiday" visas to Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, or South Korea, and 6-month visas to Canada or Singapore.
Canadians can choose from 25 countries, and eligible citizens of 30 countries can choose Canada.
I have shared my flat with numerous young people in Canada on working holiday visas, most recently a Slovakian couple who worked here in Vancouver for six months, travelled across Canada, worked several months in Toronto, then travelled about the Eastern US for a few months before going home with more money in the bank than they started with.
Canadians can choose from 25 countries, and eligible citizens of 30 countries can choose Canada.
I have shared my flat with numerous young people in Canada on working holiday visas, most recently a Slovakian couple who worked here in Vancouver for six months, travelled across Canada, worked several months in Toronto, then travelled about the Eastern US for a few months before going home with more money in the bank than they started with.
6
Yes! That's what I did, too, between jobs. I worked harvesting water melons in Australia, worked as a radiology tech on an island in the South Pacific and sheared sheep in New Zealand. Free room and board and the little money that I earned took care of most of the trip. The experiences I had and the people I met last a life-time. And the perspectives I gained as to what is really important to solve a problem without calling maintenance and being able to pass it on to someone else are priceless.
Now, when I tell my students to ditch the organized programs for the metaphorical parachute and the night jump into the jungle, they look at me as if I am crazy.
They may have a point there, but only a small one.
Now, when I tell my students to ditch the organized programs for the metaphorical parachute and the night jump into the jungle, they look at me as if I am crazy.
They may have a point there, but only a small one.
1
The number of working holidays visas have been seriously cut since the financial crisis with most of them being allocated to for-profit companies that arrange for placements and housing.
1
#Susan:
Well, then that's where the problem is then. As always, there is probably some kickback involved. But as long as it is all market driven, it can't be wrong, can it?
Well, then that's where the problem is then. As always, there is probably some kickback involved. But as long as it is all market driven, it can't be wrong, can it?
I did a 18-months internship in 2003-05. It really changed my life and improved my professional profile!
Today, I am an expat based in Amsterdam working for a global corporation. I travel the region often and thanks to the strengths I discovered during the internship I manage to connect and empathise with people better and faster than my colleagues. Truly an edge.
I did not pay 10K, I could't have afforded that!
I did paid a smaller fee (<1K) and my flight. I did get stipends from company to rent a room, eat well and travel the country where I was.
The organisation that set up the internship was THE best! It is a non-for-profit run by students, so when you arrived you already have people willing to show you around and become friends. Recommended: AIESEC.
Today, I am an expat based in Amsterdam working for a global corporation. I travel the region often and thanks to the strengths I discovered during the internship I manage to connect and empathise with people better and faster than my colleagues. Truly an edge.
I did not pay 10K, I could't have afforded that!
I did paid a smaller fee (<1K) and my flight. I did get stipends from company to rent a room, eat well and travel the country where I was.
The organisation that set up the internship was THE best! It is a non-for-profit run by students, so when you arrived you already have people willing to show you around and become friends. Recommended: AIESEC.
5
The best part of the foreign internship experience for our family member was figuring out how to salvage a meaningful work experience from a poorly organized program. Fortunately, it turned out well after some personal initiative to create a meaningful and relevant work experience, which in turn led to a job offer before even returning to the US. The cost was only about $2,000 plus air fare for 3 months, with a family stay.
Now when employers ask the typical interview question, "how have you dealt with a difficult life situation", there is a great story to tell.
The lesson is to be prepared to improvise when you are far from home and familiar life.
Now when employers ask the typical interview question, "how have you dealt with a difficult life situation", there is a great story to tell.
The lesson is to be prepared to improvise when you are far from home and familiar life.
5
Precisely! Get off the beaten path, forget the safety net (within reason, of course), adapt to the conditions and make the best of it you can.
The most intense memories I have are from working half-way around the world, outside of any established program, and only with the goal of learning how things are done differently there and what new things I could learn from it.
And, as you say, it does not have to be exorbitantly expensive. Moreover, if you are doing a good job, are productive and don't rub people too much the wrong way, they will go out of the way to find support for you. That'll make your money last even longer.
These are skills that help you over and over throughout life.
The most intense memories I have are from working half-way around the world, outside of any established program, and only with the goal of learning how things are done differently there and what new things I could learn from it.
And, as you say, it does not have to be exorbitantly expensive. Moreover, if you are doing a good job, are productive and don't rub people too much the wrong way, they will go out of the way to find support for you. That'll make your money last even longer.
These are skills that help you over and over throughout life.
1
The implications of this article are clear: only the rich can afford to work.
12
I look at these type of student-paid internships like I do those thick envelopes parents get in the mail telling them their kid is invited to be in some honor society- if you send a check. As in so many other things, if you have to pay to be an intern or to be in an honor society, it is probably worthless.
11
It doesn't pay to do free work for anyone because they put a value on your time based on how much they pay for it. An exception can be made for "sweat equity" in startups where the payback is long term but, even then, you risk wasting your time.
6
I can rarely relate to NYT education stories. They're either about rich kids paying thousands of dollars to get a leg up on the competition through SAT boot camps, applying to 25 colleges, interning abroad, etc. or they're about severely impoverished kids going to inner city schools. It would be nice to see more stories about what much of the country actually experiences — a decent education at a small town high school and application to a few state universities with maybe some pointers from a school counselor or the help of an SAT prep book.
21
This sounds like a ridiculously expensive and elaborate scheme to get around the tightened-up DOL rules around unpaid internships. As a parent and human resources executive, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
8
I usually cry, but not because of the "exploitation", but because of the opportunity the DOL is stealing from our kids.
If the internship is there to do cheap labor, that's one thing and I would be the first to quit, but if the emphasis is on the learning experience, which it always was for me, then the DOL is destroying some of the most important growth opportunities for our juniors.
I have had many young college grads knocking on my door wanting to gain research experience without having any skills. I usually have to send most of them away, because I am prepared to train them, but do not have the funds I am forced to pay them with for what invariably ends up an extensive training and time commitment on my part with little or know tangible research results to show for. In reality, by strict input/output criteria, they would have to pay me and not vice versa.
Bureaucrats like the ones you mention are one reason why we are losing so many talented STEM students.
If the internship is there to do cheap labor, that's one thing and I would be the first to quit, but if the emphasis is on the learning experience, which it always was for me, then the DOL is destroying some of the most important growth opportunities for our juniors.
I have had many young college grads knocking on my door wanting to gain research experience without having any skills. I usually have to send most of them away, because I am prepared to train them, but do not have the funds I am forced to pay them with for what invariably ends up an extensive training and time commitment on my part with little or know tangible research results to show for. In reality, by strict input/output criteria, they would have to pay me and not vice versa.
Bureaucrats like the ones you mention are one reason why we are losing so many talented STEM students.
My first two years living in Austria I registered as a 'guest' at the very well organized university department which teaches German to foreign students. I paid 250 euro for the semester course. I met students who were doing an 'exchange' program at their US Universities taking the very same class I was. Difference was, they were paying over $12,000! Yes, they received University 'credit' for their experience. But what could possibly account for that kind of difference??
10
interesting exchange. pay someone for a work experience. they get the work; you get the experience. nah. I prefer the route I took in college: regular old study abroad through my university, finding a job while I was there, and getting paid to do that job. I still got the experience; they still got the work.
4
Ever heard of AIESEC? It's a not for profit student run organization that connects students with internships abroad. As someone who has used their services, I can't imagine using anything else. The experience they provide is absolutely superior.
5
I work in a non-profit here in Vancouver. Management has now begun bringing in unpaid interns from Europe. Another version of the internship abroad. These young people "get the opportunity to learn how to do marketing in Canada", but they're given all the menial tasks such as making coffee, emptying the dishwasher, stamping envelopes, making Facebook updates. All completely useless stuff in terms of improving their skill set. They are left to figure out housing on their own. I cringe inside when they rush in, late, apologize for being late. They are working for free, in an extremely expensive city such as Vancouver, and are handed every unchallenging task there is in the office. I can't say I would apologize coming in 10 minutes late if I were them. It's costing them huge bucks to be here, to do nothing in particular.
21
I don't envy them, but I don't pity them either. Passive adherence to an indifferent "program" instead of self-initiative is what's to blame.
If the "program" does not provide what I am looking for, I move on. Of course, that means now I have to take matters into my own hands.
Looks more like an inability to do that that is at the core of the problem.
If the "program" does not provide what I am looking for, I move on. Of course, that means now I have to take matters into my own hands.
Looks more like an inability to do that that is at the core of the problem.
I taught at a small college, and the department I worked in wanted to give awards to students for various reasons, just so the students could place these awrqds on their resume to make the students more employable. Of course the reason for all this is the lack of good jobs.
5
Is this just another way to make college education more unaffordable for the middle class? $10,000 translates into about one fifth of a typical American household's annual pre-tax income. This for just an internship?
10
Taking out a $6000 student loan (incidentally the same amount as the tuition charged?) for a summer internship? Seems extremely foolish!
8
Working overseas is a great experience. It is unfortunate that starving college students have to come up so much money in order to deal with these placement companies. I think if you searched on your own you would just as successful in finding a job overseas.
The really questionable thing here is, a Federal Loan should not be underwriting unpaid work to for-profit corporations. Paying for the internship is perhaps questionable. Using taxpayer dollars to do so, is certainly wrong.
12
Many of you posters really should relax. We were happy to pay for our son's internship in Rome two summers ago (~$15,000). His Italian improved greatly, which no one ever can take away; he got some good experience; and he made some wonderful friends and contacts who will last him a lifetime. Plus, by the end of the summer, he was able to introduce us to some great neighborhood restaurants that we never would have found on our own.
I think all kids should avail themselves of such opportunities. Happily, we were able to subsidize his summer. For those who need to borrow to do it, It will pay off handsomely over time.
I think all kids should avail themselves of such opportunities. Happily, we were able to subsidize his summer. For those who need to borrow to do it, It will pay off handsomely over time.
6
JL,
are you comments intended as satire? $15,000 for a glorified vacation? $15,000 in loans that "will pay off handsomely over time"?
are you comments intended as satire? $15,000 for a glorified vacation? $15,000 in loans that "will pay off handsomely over time"?
25
It's either satire, or post-purchase rationalization at its finest!
15
The problem is, I think America's Millennials have become disillusioned with "it will pay off handsomely over time."
Most things, in college, don't for a fair number of my generation. Not in this economy. It's a shame to encourage any young person to take on more debt in order to look favorable to employers. Employment, it seems, has turned into a game of luck for the recently-graduated.
Most things, in college, don't for a fair number of my generation. Not in this economy. It's a shame to encourage any young person to take on more debt in order to look favorable to employers. Employment, it seems, has turned into a game of luck for the recently-graduated.
2
Well, glad to see that somebody has addressed this topic. HOWEVER, my biggest question for US education remains: why do students have to pay for internship credits when they, rather than schools, are the one that find the job and do the work... Isn't that ironic for schools to charge them money?
4
Just one more self-serving racket to go with all the others.
17
A related issue is the whole semester abroad concept.
I had 4 college kids who each took semesters abroad. Each loved it. They were broadening, maturing experiences. I am glad they went.
But none of my kids would say that the academic work was remotely equivalent to their home colleges. One dirty secret about these "semesters" is that very few of them are actually at real universities at all. Only 1 of my 4 kids went to a true local university attended by natives of that country (and she went to their language school designed for foreigners). Everyone else went to international "Schools" or "Institutes" that are basically created by local entrepreneurs to provide US students with a place to go in some exotic location, staffed by moonlighting professors. (I am excluding those US universities with actual foreign campuses)
While they usually receive some academic credit for the experience, it is rarely as much as the cost would cover in the US, and often does not count toward their majors.
Again, I don't dispute that these are broadening experiences, but lets call a spade a spade - these are more vacations than anything else.
I had 4 college kids who each took semesters abroad. Each loved it. They were broadening, maturing experiences. I am glad they went.
But none of my kids would say that the academic work was remotely equivalent to their home colleges. One dirty secret about these "semesters" is that very few of them are actually at real universities at all. Only 1 of my 4 kids went to a true local university attended by natives of that country (and she went to their language school designed for foreigners). Everyone else went to international "Schools" or "Institutes" that are basically created by local entrepreneurs to provide US students with a place to go in some exotic location, staffed by moonlighting professors. (I am excluding those US universities with actual foreign campuses)
While they usually receive some academic credit for the experience, it is rarely as much as the cost would cover in the US, and often does not count toward their majors.
Again, I don't dispute that these are broadening experiences, but lets call a spade a spade - these are more vacations than anything else.
6
so you are saying that they are not worth a $10,000 educational "experience" or, for that matter, not a scam?
2
I'm not excusing those programs, but the reality is that very few American educated students arrive in overseas programs even remotely fluent in another language. An intensive language program is worth taking; just dropping someone with Spanish III in a university where the language of instruction is Spanish is a guarantee of failure.
1
'...I had 4 college kids who each took semesters abroad. Each loved it. They were broadening, maturing experiences. I am glad they went...'
Who paid for these 'vacations', as that is what they were.
If parents want to shell out for a vacation for their college age children and pretend it is 'educational', that is no one else's business. Spoil your children however you want.
If students take out loans for this extravagance, then they should pay back their loans in full, no whining, no asking the taxpayers to 'forgive' the loans, no pretending they did not know what they were signing, as if money is 'free', whenever you feel the urge to spend a summer in Rome.
Who paid for these 'vacations', as that is what they were.
If parents want to shell out for a vacation for their college age children and pretend it is 'educational', that is no one else's business. Spoil your children however you want.
If students take out loans for this extravagance, then they should pay back their loans in full, no whining, no asking the taxpayers to 'forgive' the loans, no pretending they did not know what they were signing, as if money is 'free', whenever you feel the urge to spend a summer in Rome.
1
You go overseas to get new perspectives. If, when you come back, you understand that American wealth allows more Americans to see the world and, in particular, to attend international sports events, and that others cringe when we chant "U.S.A., U.S.A.", your venture has been successful.
3
If I'm a graduate school or employer, given the choice between hiring a student who went abroad for an "internship" like this, or a student who labored 40 hours a week at McDonald's or Fuddrucker's to make enough money for books, I pick the French fry guy/girl/they every single time. Grit matters.
115
for what it's worth, I agree.
6
Just please don't assume everyone who has interned abroad has paid handsome amount of money for the experience. When I studied abroad in Nairobi, I took the initiative to get an internship without the 10k price tag where I was made Project Manager on an expansion proposal for my company and worked directly with the CEO in the States to hire the new managing director.
So moral of the story: abroad experience is a great resume and character building experience. It shows great maturity and reasoning skills...unless you paid a small fortune for the privilege.
So moral of the story: abroad experience is a great resume and character building experience. It shows great maturity and reasoning skills...unless you paid a small fortune for the privilege.
1
It is sort of stunning the number of smart, college educated kids who can't get the french fry jobs. These days there might be 200 people showing up on the same day for those jobs. Unpaid internships are better than doing nothing. It's really hard for kids in their early 20s kids to get jobs these days.
1
Is this article for real?
This line, dripping with the absurdity of privilege, says it all:
"And she found her homestay, in a couple’s Paris apartment, less than ideal. The couple argued a lot and sometimes served frozen meals. At night she had to walk past an unlit park on the way home from the Metro."
It is unfathomable to me that someone could possibly begin to complain about this supposedly "less than ideal" lifestyle, when so many -- well-documented on the pages of the Times -- spend their days and nights doing this "grunt work" that Ms. Friedberg so disdains. Or wishing, as they waste away in refugee detention centers, that they could someday be so lucky as to spend their days serving coffee and tea to boutique customers.
This kind of garbage shouldn't be given column inches by the Times. Rich kids get to have world-class experiences, funded by their parents or loans (that will be, I'm sure, paid off by their parents), and then complain about it in the Times -- while the rest of the world feels grateful for whatever meals they have and would die for an apartment within walking distance of public transit!
This line, dripping with the absurdity of privilege, says it all:
"And she found her homestay, in a couple’s Paris apartment, less than ideal. The couple argued a lot and sometimes served frozen meals. At night she had to walk past an unlit park on the way home from the Metro."
It is unfathomable to me that someone could possibly begin to complain about this supposedly "less than ideal" lifestyle, when so many -- well-documented on the pages of the Times -- spend their days and nights doing this "grunt work" that Ms. Friedberg so disdains. Or wishing, as they waste away in refugee detention centers, that they could someday be so lucky as to spend their days serving coffee and tea to boutique customers.
This kind of garbage shouldn't be given column inches by the Times. Rich kids get to have world-class experiences, funded by their parents or loans (that will be, I'm sure, paid off by their parents), and then complain about it in the Times -- while the rest of the world feels grateful for whatever meals they have and would die for an apartment within walking distance of public transit!
60
Did you forget that she paid 10,000 dollars for this experience? I don't think there are many people anywhere, including poor countries, who dream of spending 10,000 to serve other people tea without getting paid.
10
Paid internships have been common in the culinary world for a couple of generations now. Student chefs will pay good money to chop carrots and onions in European kitchens in the hope of absorbing as much knowledge as possible or perhaps even getting hired full time.
$10,000 for a chance to be hired at a minimum wage job? What's the world coming to?
7
I went to Hotel and Restaurant school here in New York. Upon graduation in 1984, they set me up with an unpaid job in Paris. This is called in French a "stage." I got no salary, for 60 hours a week, but neither did I have to pay. In 84, the dollar was very strong, some 7.5 French Francs to the dollar. I got a cheap hotel in the Quartier Latin for about US$100/week, breakfast included, and I got two meals a day at the restaurant. When my wife finished a Dental residency and joined me, we ate fabulous meals on my days off. Seven course degustations with wine for $100 for two. I considered it part of the education. The place I worked in is still in existence, still with two Michelin stars. Then it was one of two 2-star Michelin seafood restaurants in Paris. The other one was a small place called Le Bernardin. It was inexpensive enough that my wife and I had enough money left over from our wedding that we traveled for two months in a rented Ford Fiesta. Picked up in Brussels and dropped off in Bari, Italy. We finished with three weeks with her family in Greece. It goes a lot further when the internship profit motive is excised...
2
This article deserves credit for enabling so many commenters imposing diverse opinions with little documented support.
3
Wow. When I was in college, just 10 years ago, I did an amazing internship in Chile -- and got PAID $3,000! I absolutely do not understand the concept of paying for the privilege of working for free! For that kind of money, why not take actual classes at a foreign university? Or go on a months-long backpacking adventure?
18
The thumbnail photo on the home page of the block M banner got me to click. It's the University of Michigan College of Literature, Science, and the Arts, not lower case literature, science and the arts. As long as I'm posting a comment I'll say that my parents begged me to travel during the Summer but I was more interested in making money so I painted houses in the Summer, either full time or I took morning classes and painted in the afternoons. My sisters did "do" Europe independently for three Summers in the mid 1970s. One Summer they spent 10 weeks together bicycling through France. Separately one managed to go all the way to Afghanistan by road and rail to the complete horror of the rest of the family when upon her return she informed us just how far she had gone. The other sister managed to land a job at the Louvre for one Summer. After 4 decades I'm not clear on the exact financial arrangement but I don't believe she paid for the privilege.
Well, in the 70's, I imagine it was a lot more possible to fund a summer of travel through a part-time job during the school year.
I don't deny that some of these internships come across as foolish, but travel, study, and work abroad are worthy endeavors for young people. It's too bad the experience has been monetized like everything else.
I don't deny that some of these internships come across as foolish, but travel, study, and work abroad are worthy endeavors for young people. It's too bad the experience has been monetized like everything else.
7
'...travel, study, and work abroad are worthy endeavors for young people...'
Work is a 'worthy endeavor'. Paying your own way in life is a 'worthy endeavor'
Everything else is a luxury.
Work is a 'worthy endeavor'. Paying your own way in life is a 'worthy endeavor'
Everything else is a luxury.
1
when are we going to stop paying for privileged young people to have a cushy predictable future and help all young people work for a future with their own fought worth and help make this world a better place for everyone,?
7
who says "we" are paying for it (or at least for most of it). It sounds like parents and students (in the form of student loans for the latter) sound like they are paying. And not coming out the better for it.
A few years ago, a local family here was fined for having relatives help harvest crops on their 3/4 acre farm without pay. These were relatives, mind you, and not putting in 40 hour work weeks! "Jerry and Mea Draper received a $1,050 fine for occasionally allowing their sister, niece and nephew to work on their three-quarter-acre farm in return for fresh produce. Jerry’s 86-year-old father was fined $250 for having a volunteer help with office chores. " Apparently the Division of Labor in CA has higher standards than the colleges. (BTW, were it college students getting credit it would have been OK).
http://www.ptreyeslight.com/article/cracking-down-family-farms
These internships are nothing but slavery. Not only are they unpaid, but you have to pay for the privilege and someone else isn't getting a job. There are prominent companies in the US who go thru interns like water - it saves them a lot of money!
Capitalism at it's finest! Soon it will charge you for breathing (unless you are rich, of course.)
http://www.ptreyeslight.com/article/cracking-down-family-farms
These internships are nothing but slavery. Not only are they unpaid, but you have to pay for the privilege and someone else isn't getting a job. There are prominent companies in the US who go thru interns like water - it saves them a lot of money!
Capitalism at it's finest! Soon it will charge you for breathing (unless you are rich, of course.)
21
Just another example of profit centers posing and education--aimed at the wealthy whose children should learn how to change oil in cars, or serve at Starbucks, where not everything is learning the fun way on the path to a job.
14
As someone who recruits talent for a living, I would not have much faith in someone who had to pay a lot of money to get an internship. Does anyone require work in a foreign country for an entry level job for an undergrad? I doubt it. And wouldn't it look better if the individual had the resources to seek out an internship on their own? Motivation and tenacity are skills at the top of my list, for what it's worth, not a debt ridden student having to pay for the experience. Get out the yellow pages, start cold calling until you find someone willing to take you on. That's the individual I want to hire. And if you must seek out "global skills" take a summer course from Rosetta Stone and learn a new language.
29
An "internship" is supposed to teach skills, and have a specific skills, at least at reputable organizations. Reputable internship hosts are usually quite specific about not using interns to get free labor!
Being essentially a go-fer--no matter how fancy or exotic the locale--and taking gratuitous tours of tourist sites and distilleries is not an internship! It's a part-time job--gratis--then with some boutique tourism thrown in!
And charging $16,000 for this to boot! And then giving academic credit for this dubious experience to justify the price tag!
What a scam this whole thing it! The argument that this is somehow contributing to an "global perspective" for students is just more PR nonsense from the college(s)!
So much for college's concern about the skyrocketing costs of "education" too! And yet another sign of how colleges and universities have utterly lost their way in terms of providing education!
Being essentially a go-fer--no matter how fancy or exotic the locale--and taking gratuitous tours of tourist sites and distilleries is not an internship! It's a part-time job--gratis--then with some boutique tourism thrown in!
And charging $16,000 for this to boot! And then giving academic credit for this dubious experience to justify the price tag!
What a scam this whole thing it! The argument that this is somehow contributing to an "global perspective" for students is just more PR nonsense from the college(s)!
So much for college's concern about the skyrocketing costs of "education" too! And yet another sign of how colleges and universities have utterly lost their way in terms of providing education!
13
This is a more extensive problem than described in the article. Kids are expected to build resumes starting with college admission. It extends then to graduate school and to the marketplace. What is no longer respected is the kid who works part-time at a menial job to have his own money and/or to help his family. My pre-med college son had a resume with published medical research, a part-time paid job as an EMT and a paid summer position as an emergency scribe. He was told he would not be accepted to med school if he did not have unpaid community service because he did not come from a poor family. He applied and was not accepted. He then spent the following year as a volunteer EMT and was accepted to 3 med schools.
This is ridiculous. As an upper middle class parent, I paid for college & will help him with med school. However, we felt it was important to teach him a good work ethic and the value of money. The colleges undermine this value and the competitive workplace has created a fury to pretend experience through internships. It has just created another market to take advantage of desperate graduates in need of jobs.
This is ridiculous. As an upper middle class parent, I paid for college & will help him with med school. However, we felt it was important to teach him a good work ethic and the value of money. The colleges undermine this value and the competitive workplace has created a fury to pretend experience through internships. It has just created another market to take advantage of desperate graduates in need of jobs.
22
Jane,
is it any wonder why those beneath the upper middle class are so screwed? What parent from such a background can support free internships and "volunteer" work like this?
is it any wonder why those beneath the upper middle class are so screwed? What parent from such a background can support free internships and "volunteer" work like this?
6
Like it or not, internship abroad is good for the resume. And often the first time a kid gets to travel abroad and network in a semi-professional way.
Only for the ignorant HR person looking at the resume. None I know have difficulty seeing through the trust fund baby types who pay to keep their kids busy for the summer under the guise of education,experience,work.
9
As an employer if I saw this type of "internship" on a resume it would go straight into the garbage can. I would much more prefer a student who worked HARD at some minimum wage job, breaking a sweat and realizing and understanding what hard work is, than someone who went on a glorified vacation.
18
This sort of thing is so indulgent. At what age are kids adults and look to start working for a living? These are just expensive vacations where you get to 'work' a bit while the organization makes money off you.
15
Paying for internships defeats the whole purpose of actually interning. Interning is already hard now that a lot of times, there is no pay. I'd understand if the company or program doesn't want to fund travel and visa expenses but if we aren't careful, this may occur more and more domestically. Jobs are scarce and so are those internships in major firms, but we shouldn't go lower down the line and fall victim to what could potential be a huge upset for some of us who really can't afford these type of fees.
Perhaps fees to intern may not happen domestically but as a result, interns serve about the same purpose of an actual employee with overwhelming hours that interfere with other priorities.
Some Universities have the whole package where they send the students abroad once they secure an internship for them. When I traveled abroad, I worked with the university and found a lot of volunteering experiences and sharpened newly acquired skills. I also worked for the university abroad.
Perhaps fees to intern may not happen domestically but as a result, interns serve about the same purpose of an actual employee with overwhelming hours that interfere with other priorities.
Some Universities have the whole package where they send the students abroad once they secure an internship for them. When I traveled abroad, I worked with the university and found a lot of volunteering experiences and sharpened newly acquired skills. I also worked for the university abroad.
2
"I'd understand if the company or program doesn't want to fund travel and visa expenses but if we aren't careful, this may occur more and more domestically."
Too late, it already is.
Too late, it already is.
1
It sounds like this could be rife with scams and …how much value are you really getting for what you pay? Is it really about ‘interning’ at a business versus simply spending time abroad, and how much of this could be accomplished on one’s own, and for much less money? Can people not make their own travel arrangements…figure out how to get a visa…find hostels or couchsurfing places online? Can people not find websites that offer global volunteer ops (i.e., WWOOF?)? And if they want a true internship at a business, is there no way they can contact the businesses themselves or see if headhunters have internship opps also on their radars? I guess the real question is …what exactly are these people trying to accomplish and could they not potentially make all these arrangements on their own, especially if it would hard for them to come up with this kind of money?
3
What is the bigger racket? Colleges and universities that charge full tuition for the Intern/externship credits that cost the institution nothing? or the purveyors who set the overseas programs up? At least we can say the purveyors are taking advantage of a voluntary market opportunity. They exist and thrive primarily because of the pressure placed on the students by their parent/s to do so. Most prospective employers can quickly tell the difference between a true internship that the student set up & took initiative to build as opposed to one bought off the shelf.
14
It seems more logical for students to simply apply for a study abroad college or graduate program. While overseas, they can arrange w/ their school to intern at an organization, instead of paying over 6K to global "internship finder companies." I'm sure some students have wonderful experiences, but overall, students shouldn't have to pay, to work.
40
"overall, students shouldn't have to pay, to work. "
Unfortunately this has become the norm. Without an "internship" on the resume it is more difficult to find work.
Unfortunately this has become the norm. Without an "internship" on the resume it is more difficult to find work.
1
There are similarities with explosion in "MBA for executives" programs.
They lure in struggling/striving mid-career people with the implied promise that an MBA on their resume will open doors and put them on an accelerated path to the C-suite.
These programs are exorbitantly expensive and nowhere near deliver the promise for the vast majority of its graduates.
They lure in struggling/striving mid-career people with the implied promise that an MBA on their resume will open doors and put them on an accelerated path to the C-suite.
These programs are exorbitantly expensive and nowhere near deliver the promise for the vast majority of its graduates.
19
You want a better way to spend $10,000 and advance your career? Take golf lessons.
Also, being someone that does a fair amount of recruiting with my company (they want professionals, not just HR to meet with candidates), if you told me you spent $10,000 to intern for free in the south of France, I would severely question your ability to make rationale decisions.
Also, being someone that does a fair amount of recruiting with my company (they want professionals, not just HR to meet with candidates), if you told me you spent $10,000 to intern for free in the south of France, I would severely question your ability to make rationale decisions.
50
You make a good point. I too meet a number of job candidates at my office, and a recent graduate with an expensive internship on his resume would make me raise my eyebrows. That's unfair, perhaps, but still, a 19 or 20-year-old who can afford a $16,000 internship either has a a rich daddy or took out big loans. Both are red flags - again, that is perhaps unfair, but I've dealt with enough princesses and irresponsible new employees to be wary.
What this article is describing is the Club Med, fully organized version of what we used to call a working holiday. It takes away the key ingredient of what the internship should teach the student, i.e. organize yourself and make it happen on your own.
As a student I have done several of those, whether they were called internships or electives. In each case nobody helped me, I decided what kind of experience I wanted and where I wanted to go, then set out to write letters. You get many rejections, but I also got a good spectrum of positive responses. Every time I had the best possible experience. That includes things that worked great, others that did not work so great, the ability and willingness to adapt and to optimize.
Paying someone else to do all that for you kills the main purpose and blunts the essential personal growth experience an internship should provide.
That's just another form of tourism.
As a student I have done several of those, whether they were called internships or electives. In each case nobody helped me, I decided what kind of experience I wanted and where I wanted to go, then set out to write letters. You get many rejections, but I also got a good spectrum of positive responses. Every time I had the best possible experience. That includes things that worked great, others that did not work so great, the ability and willingness to adapt and to optimize.
Paying someone else to do all that for you kills the main purpose and blunts the essential personal growth experience an internship should provide.
That's just another form of tourism.
39
Our resources, our time and our ability to emit carbon are limited. We must make wise choices in all areas of our lives, including this one.
3
Almost everyone of these comments starts with some variation of "when I was in college" or "back in my day"…..
Things have changed, and obviously not for the better. I have been teaching at a very large university for 20+ years, and have seen those changes.
Things have changed, and obviously not for the better. I have been teaching at a very large university for 20+ years, and have seen those changes.
6
So have I and agree with you totally. I just wonder where it can (and will) all end. Providing sexual services in return for an opportunity to interview for a job, nevermind for a position (and this outside of Hollywood)?
Since non profit institutions have become increasingly all about the profits, why not go all the way and turn all for profit enterprises into non profits- after all they are providing highly educational experiences to our youth such as learning how to market credit cards. This is truly a public good.
5
The trend of unpaid internships is so widespread and self-perpetuating - so that college students feel like doing an unpaid internship (even if in a for-profit industry) is the only way to get a real job.
At this point, I feel like the solution must come from those who "value" the internships: that is, the school admissions committees and HR departments who seem to buy into the notion that these internships are indicative of anything. If schools stopped putting weight on them in admissions, and jobs stopped expecting them, then the problem would be much solved. Rich kids who want a fun semester abroad can still do it, but shouldn't expect it will give them a leg up against others. The rest of us won't feel the need to go into debt to pad our resumes.
At this point, I feel like the solution must come from those who "value" the internships: that is, the school admissions committees and HR departments who seem to buy into the notion that these internships are indicative of anything. If schools stopped putting weight on them in admissions, and jobs stopped expecting them, then the problem would be much solved. Rich kids who want a fun semester abroad can still do it, but shouldn't expect it will give them a leg up against others. The rest of us won't feel the need to go into debt to pad our resumes.
6
Quel horreur! Frozen meals! Welcome to a real internship experience, honey.
"Ms. Friedberg said that the internship, which cost $10,000, was a great learning experience but the grunt work, like serving tea and coffee to customers, got repetitive, convincing her she did not want to work retail. “It had its ups and down,” she said. And she found her homestay, in a couple’s Paris apartment, less than ideal. The couple argued a lot and sometimes served frozen meals. At night she had to walk past an unlit park on the way home from the Metro."
"Ms. Friedberg said that the internship, which cost $10,000, was a great learning experience but the grunt work, like serving tea and coffee to customers, got repetitive, convincing her she did not want to work retail. “It had its ups and down,” she said. And she found her homestay, in a couple’s Paris apartment, less than ideal. The couple argued a lot and sometimes served frozen meals. At night she had to walk past an unlit park on the way home from the Metro."
8
Never heard of an employer actively looking for foreign "experience abroad". (Especially the 'extended vacation abroad' that is passed off as an international work internship in this article)
If they need anyone with international or foreign qualifications, what they require is fluency in a foreign language. Say you speak and write English and Mandarin with complete fluency.... you can pretty much name your salary to a prospective employer.
$16k is much better spent on intensive language training. You'll make that investment back the first year of employment.... and then some.
If they need anyone with international or foreign qualifications, what they require is fluency in a foreign language. Say you speak and write English and Mandarin with complete fluency.... you can pretty much name your salary to a prospective employer.
$16k is much better spent on intensive language training. You'll make that investment back the first year of employment.... and then some.
17
I did one of these programs in Paris. It was partnered with a top French university (enhanced written and oral fluency). I was living and working in my second language and speaking to major French corporations daily in French. I never got coffee, worked 35 hours a week, it was a far cry from a vacation (however, I did enjoy the experience) and this improved my French to the point of fluency. After college, I taught one year and then landed myself in a French multinational corporation on Wall Street.
I think a misconception is that you are paying to work. The company is not paying you (no work visa), but you are not paying them. You are paying the university for credit hours (that you'll have to pay for anyway), the intermediary to find the internship and the families to host you and cook for you. It is an intense working an living cultural immersion experience. I agree it isn't for everyone. If you want to work in banking in Chicago and aren't gaining applicable skills, why spend the money, but how would working and living and then fulfilling all of the university demands (in my case, multiple reports and 40 page final project and presentation in front of a panel in French) not be intensive language training. Also, working in global environments requires cultural knowledge and understanding, which you don't gain in a classroom. In addition, it's great for networking as well if you want an international business career.
I think a misconception is that you are paying to work. The company is not paying you (no work visa), but you are not paying them. You are paying the university for credit hours (that you'll have to pay for anyway), the intermediary to find the internship and the families to host you and cook for you. It is an intense working an living cultural immersion experience. I agree it isn't for everyone. If you want to work in banking in Chicago and aren't gaining applicable skills, why spend the money, but how would working and living and then fulfilling all of the university demands (in my case, multiple reports and 40 page final project and presentation in front of a panel in French) not be intensive language training. Also, working in global environments requires cultural knowledge and understanding, which you don't gain in a classroom. In addition, it's great for networking as well if you want an international business career.
3
I cannot fathom how stupid this idea is of a paid internship abroad. How does this make these young adults employable after they finish the internships? This seems like a luxury excursion for the well off with a few dopes who go along that cannot afford it.
As an immigrant to the US, I can say that the US has all the educational, internship and work opportunities there can be. Oh and I didn't even mention about the silly majors these kids are studying. What's wrong with these people?
As an immigrant to the US, I can say that the US has all the educational, internship and work opportunities there can be. Oh and I didn't even mention about the silly majors these kids are studying. What's wrong with these people?
15
"I cannot fathom how stupid this idea is of a paid internship abroad."
How about how stupid to pay for an internship here in the US (and that is now expected)?
How about how stupid to pay for an internship here in the US (and that is now expected)?
Ms. Friedberg paid 10k for the privilege of being a gofer in France!!!!
You can't make this stuff up.
You can't make this stuff up.
33
Wake up and smell the money. Colleges/universities have become big business entities and another cog in the wheel. Others have found ways to capitalize on this growing enterprise. Soon an internship will be a prerequisite to getting a job and those with money will get the jobs continuing the process of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.
6
"Soon an internship will be a prerequisite to getting a job"
Too late, we are already there.
Too late, we are already there.
Unpaid internships are wage theft. Period.
21
Once the relationship becomes this gratuitous, it doesn't seem to be appropriate to call it an internship any more. It is unpaid voluntary work that damages the market for paid work. This is a supply and demand imbalance that pays the lie that education is a net return in every case. In these cases, the front-end would be so expensive that it would be more economically logical for these young people simply to be paid off never to work, so that they do not continue to distort the underlying economy.
8
The idea of this kind of internship is good (though I also lament the hyper-professionalization of college). I'm more worried about a growing semi-corporate infrastructure that finds ways to make more and more money off of college students to give them "experiences". Some of these things could be accomplished by low-key connections, but generally they relate to profit--or "non profit" entities, including the colleges, that hire high-paid administrators to run these programs. In this case, the scholarship money comes from the college and is then paid to an external entity. If you want to look at the the reasons for the rise in cost for higher education, this kind of thing is it. College education needs to be leaner or costs will continue to rise.
4
MEH...
Formula:
1. Monetize EVERYTHING
2. Summer camp for rich kids.
3. Educational Institutions get to charge for credit hours without actually providing ANYTHING tangible.
4. Everyone walks away with that warm fuzzy feeling like somethings been accomplished.
FACT IS: NYT's reported some time ago that paying for internships actually lowers the interns chances of getting hired.
Formula:
1. Monetize EVERYTHING
2. Summer camp for rich kids.
3. Educational Institutions get to charge for credit hours without actually providing ANYTHING tangible.
4. Everyone walks away with that warm fuzzy feeling like somethings been accomplished.
FACT IS: NYT's reported some time ago that paying for internships actually lowers the interns chances of getting hired.
36
Internships should be predicated on the offer of a job at the end. I did an internship many years ago. I loved it, and was given so much responsibility that I was all but a full employee (I lacked the title and, of course, the pay - but the company provided housing, which in itself was worth many thousands of dollars which, had I been an employee, I would have had to pay out of my salary). At the end of the year, I was told they wished they could afford to hire me, but ....
3
When I was in college in the early 80s, I was a financial aid kid who got scholarships and grants and worked during school and summers to pay for tuition and expenses. I wanted to take a year abroad, but it wasn't even a consideration because of the cost. It was a wish but not a need. To get the experience that employers wanted, I worked as a volunteer for nonprofits and took unpaid internships that were downtown or uptown instead of abroad or across country. The places I volunteered were glad to have the extra help and gave me valuable training; bringing coffee wasn't in my job description. It wasn't glamorous, but it strengthened my work ethic, gave me additional skills and provided me with experience that I was able to bring to the paying workplace. Yes, it was easier to get a job back in the 80s, even for a liberal arts major, but the employers then and now aren't looking for workers with fantasy internships: they just want someone who will work hard, and is committed to the work. For those students who feel left out or are concerned about not having a big ticket internship on their resume: don't stress. Get the experience locally and where you are needed and valued. In the future, God willing, you'll be able to visit these glamorous places and do fantastic things, but on your own terms.
10
Really? I did a junior year abroad back in 1978-79. It was a true "exchange program," with four students goin East fro Cornell to Trinity College, Dublin, and four going the other way. I paid directly to TCD, whose tuition was about 30% of Cornell's state land grant tuition was back then. My tuition was US$900 for the whole year. I boarded with a family for £19 pounds a week, including two meals a day. It was WAY cheaper than Cornell at a time when a summer of working as a furniture mover enabled you to bank most of the tuition costs, which is now impossible, of course.
When my older daughter was in college, colleges started charging full bust out retail to go abroad, then the schools paid the foreign schools *and pocketed the difference.* my daughter was on an academic scholarship, but the school only allowed it to be applied for programs the school ran itself. My daughter wanted Africa, and they had no programs there that they ran themselves, which meant it would have meant bypassing the scholarship for that semester. Instead, she took a leave of absence and found her own program in Ghana, which turned out to be cheaper by a LOT, than going through the school. My younger daughter is in a tuition-free honors college. Her study abroad experiences had the tuition picked up by the honors college, and each student has an "oppotunities fund," which paid travel and lodging for three foreign experiences, January classes and two community service projects.
When my older daughter was in college, colleges started charging full bust out retail to go abroad, then the schools paid the foreign schools *and pocketed the difference.* my daughter was on an academic scholarship, but the school only allowed it to be applied for programs the school ran itself. My daughter wanted Africa, and they had no programs there that they ran themselves, which meant it would have meant bypassing the scholarship for that semester. Instead, she took a leave of absence and found her own program in Ghana, which turned out to be cheaper by a LOT, than going through the school. My younger daughter is in a tuition-free honors college. Her study abroad experiences had the tuition picked up by the honors college, and each student has an "oppotunities fund," which paid travel and lodging for three foreign experiences, January classes and two community service projects.
2
So you go out and find a job, then you have to pay the university thousands of dollars so they can give you course credits for an experience that had nothing to do with them? I've even started seeing some of the more bottom-feeding colleges and universities offering course credits for adult students who come in with "life experience" and "workplace experience."
How is this different from just selling course credits for cash? If it isn't a straight cash-for-credits transaction, how does a university justify getting paid (and paid big) out of this deal?
How is this different from just selling course credits for cash? If it isn't a straight cash-for-credits transaction, how does a university justify getting paid (and paid big) out of this deal?
48
But it's even worse. You are not just paying the school; you are also paying another company to find you the faux job--sorry the internship.
6
From an educator's perspective, a student's first trip abroad should NOT be solely for an internship. It takes a very unique student to succeed in the workplace while also juggling moving abroad, life in a foreign culture, missing home, adapting to a 40 hour work week (culture shock in it of itself!), wanting to make new friends and have adventures. What often ends up happening is students resent their work environment for no reason other than it detracts from the fun they'd rather be having.
If a student is doing an internship abroad, it should either be part-time or in conjunction with a study abroad / language program. OR during their second trip to a country/region that a student is psyched about.
If a student is doing an internship abroad, it should either be part-time or in conjunction with a study abroad / language program. OR during their second trip to a country/region that a student is psyched about.
26
I suspect that the commenters here are experiencing what my niece and two nephews have experienced after doing one of these. They gush effusively about the experience and claim an outsized positive effect on their careers, while privately admitting that they had been conned and deeply regretted going deeper into debt for this ripoff.
69
Minimally/No-Skill college kids help out the world - only with good accommodations and meals - thank-you very much.
They then spend the rest of their life moaning about their crushing college debt.
They then spend the rest of their life moaning about their crushing college debt.
4
Studying abroad was a defining experience of my young life. That said, I didn't go into debt to do something like this. Fortunately, even if such situations had been available, there would have been no way that my family would have been able to afford the price tag.
2
Those 'Dream Careers' and other such ripoffs are nothing but a nightmare for those who aren't well off or able to take on a load of debt big enough to choke a whale. It's nothing but another gimmick to make sure that so-called 'white collar' (or pink or whatever the latest dictated 'trend' happens to be) jobs are reserved for the very-few-percenters and the rest of us are basically serfs. Then again, when you hear (as I did) one top exec say "Of course it's slavery, but everyone has to have an internship. Then again, why hire anyone who won't even pledge [a fraternity or sorority]?" No, I'm not making this up. Unfortunately.
7
Why would you pay $10,000 for an internship abroad? It is really pointless to go into this much debt or spend this much money just to put the experience on your resume. I am all for abroad experience but there are cheaper ways to accomplish it. When I was just out of college, I was able to network with one of my Fench professors at my university who had a sister working for a Thalasso in the South of France. We independently set up an internship contract that granted me 4 months of intensive language immersion while working in a restaurant and living on the Mediterranean with small stipend and room and board provided. I accumulated no debt and my French skills improved enormously. Coming from a very modest background, my parents would not have been able to pay for this type of luxurious internship. There are creative ways to get experience abroad without going into massive debt. There are also visas available to English speakers in almost every European country and outside of Europe for teaching English. Network with your school and find more cost-effective ways to get the experience abroad without these insane costs.
79
It's great that you had such a wonderful experience, but some people want an internship in a professional office rather than a restaurant, and not everyone has a connection in the south of France (or wherever they want to go.)
4
The problem is that all too often you aren't doing the work of the office; you are bringing the coffee. And if you are actually contributing something you should be paid.
I did something similar-volunteering in a school in Guatemala. I learned a lot about teaching, kids, the country, myself and, of course, the language. I don't think it's necessary to pay thousands to intern abroad.
Also, extensive (more extensive, in most cases) learning and social interaction takes place outside of offices.
Also, extensive (more extensive, in most cases) learning and social interaction takes place outside of offices.
1
Join the Peace Corps after school. That's what I would say. Why pay 10k for 2-3 months of underling work when you can have 24+ months of work which can be as meaningful as you want to make it? In my PC experience, I had more or less free range to come up with whatever projects I could dream up. Most fail, receive little interest, or never get going; but the ones that did ... they were mine to run. Nominally, I was in the education sector but I had any number of side projects with tourism boards, cultural institutions/museums, etc. Those marketing and business school skills will be tested and put to use. The so-called "toughest job you'll ever love" was actually the easiest, most stress-free, and greatest job I'll probably ever love.
When I applied 17 years ago, there was little way of determining one's placement. Nowadays, I understand, it is more like applying to any other specific job on the private market.
And maybe it's not Paris, or London, or Hong Kong but my little coastal resort town with spas and beautiful winding old streets was pretty comfortable. Paris, New York and the like will always be there ... I'm not so sure about the rest of the world. I'd see it and live it while one still can.
When I applied 17 years ago, there was little way of determining one's placement. Nowadays, I understand, it is more like applying to any other specific job on the private market.
And maybe it's not Paris, or London, or Hong Kong but my little coastal resort town with spas and beautiful winding old streets was pretty comfortable. Paris, New York and the like will always be there ... I'm not so sure about the rest of the world. I'd see it and live it while one still can.
33
Former Peace Corps volunteer here as well. I agree with Sinuhe. Why bother spending so much money for a few short months when you can put your skills to a real world test?
1
Let's see where this leads: Students take out loans for these luxury vacations, errr...internships...and then expect and demand loan forgiveness from the taxpayers for their $100,000 liberal arts degrees.
16
Actually you can make a more stable career with a liberal arts degree. STEM skills are very specific and become obsolete very quickly. Liberal arts study teaches you how to think critically, reason logically, and communicate effectively - and how to learn from the past.
Western civilisation is built largely on the Greeks and Romans. We also inherit much from the great Asian civilisations such as the Chinese. Their science and technology - medicine, physics, chemistry, even math (they didn't have zero, and the Roman system of writing numerals was hopeless) are mostly long since surpassed, useful only as a basis for our advances. Yet their philosophers, poets, and historians still fruitfully inform our discourse today, almost as fresh as when they were written, and our really great scientists, from Einstein to Stephen Jay Gould, were thoroughly grounded in the liberal arts.
If you'd studied liberal arts, you'd realize what a cheap shot your reference to a liberal arts degree is.
Western civilisation is built largely on the Greeks and Romans. We also inherit much from the great Asian civilisations such as the Chinese. Their science and technology - medicine, physics, chemistry, even math (they didn't have zero, and the Roman system of writing numerals was hopeless) are mostly long since surpassed, useful only as a basis for our advances. Yet their philosophers, poets, and historians still fruitfully inform our discourse today, almost as fresh as when they were written, and our really great scientists, from Einstein to Stephen Jay Gould, were thoroughly grounded in the liberal arts.
If you'd studied liberal arts, you'd realize what a cheap shot your reference to a liberal arts degree is.
17
And this is upheld by mid-career income stats. Undergrad STEM degrees by themselves do not equate to higher long term incomes than liberal arts degrees.
6
@ACW: you are in your late 50s (as I am) -- what you say was true when we were freshman in the 70s. It is not true today.
Just TRY and go to an interview at a Fortune 500 corporation today, waving a piece of paper with your BA in Art History, English Literature or French Medieval Poetry and see where it gets you. Most likely you won't even get that INTERVIEW, let alone anyone who would take you seriously.
I agree that STEM is being over-typed today and it won't be the magical answer for every student that pundits think it is -- however, nothing dispute the fact that a liberal arts degree today is not worth the paper it is printed on.
For a "guaranteed job", there are only a few fields that are rock solid -- medicine and finance, and to a lesser degree, engineering (but only certain fields of engineering, and it's way less money than either medicine or finance).
Even a law degree is no longer a guaranteed of a job; I know of a lot of unemployed people with JDs these days.
Just TRY and go to an interview at a Fortune 500 corporation today, waving a piece of paper with your BA in Art History, English Literature or French Medieval Poetry and see where it gets you. Most likely you won't even get that INTERVIEW, let alone anyone who would take you seriously.
I agree that STEM is being over-typed today and it won't be the magical answer for every student that pundits think it is -- however, nothing dispute the fact that a liberal arts degree today is not worth the paper it is printed on.
For a "guaranteed job", there are only a few fields that are rock solid -- medicine and finance, and to a lesser degree, engineering (but only certain fields of engineering, and it's way less money than either medicine or finance).
Even a law degree is no longer a guaranteed of a job; I know of a lot of unemployed people with JDs these days.
5
I am surprised that the article does not mention the biggest and possibly oldest student organization (yes, run by students since 1948), AIESEC, was not mentioned for this article. Their main purpose in live is to foster international understanding by offering a global traineeship exchange program. These traineeships last between 3 and 18 months in over 50 countries (with probably more than 1,000 universities having local chapters) participate. The traineeships are sponsored by companies (i.e. cover visa expenses, provide a living wage). The local student organization organizes housing and provides a social/cultural program. Every year thousands of students across the world have meaningful work and cultural experiences instead of funding private for profit organizations and universities.
4
I had a neighbor in my freshman dorm in the late 1970s who raved about his AISEC experience. I have never heard of AISEC before or since. Does it still exist? Why is it so little publicized?
A loan is not financial help. A loan is a promise to pay in the future an amount of money borrowed today, with interest added to the total.
33
This seems to be a new way to milk the student loan market.
19
Dear businesses, please pay your interns a fair wage for the work you ask them to do. Just because market conditions allow you to exploit them doesn't mean you should.
36
alp,
but the bottom line demands it.
but the bottom line demands it.
It works well for the colleges ... internships award academic credit to students in payment for tuition - all without a faculty member.
Students avoid the stress of being evaluated; colleges can reduce faculty size while maintaining tuition levels.
Students avoid the stress of being evaluated; colleges can reduce faculty size while maintaining tuition levels.
1
We are getting overly-obsessed with getting as much "experience" before we graduate college. I never had a real internship, worked in restaurants and other jobs during college, and had (still have) a huge wanderlust. When I graduated, I taught English in Japan for two years which led to living abroad for 6 more years. The funny thing is, those opportunities are still there!! You can teach English almost anywhere in the world with a college degree and at least break even financially.
The question is, why do these kids feel pressured in getting all of this "experience" while they are 19 years old?
The question is, why do these kids feel pressured in getting all of this "experience" while they are 19 years old?
92
They want experience because the job market is, and will always be, highly competitive for the most sought-after positions. Working in restaurants and teaching English can be fun and rewarding in many ways, but they do not boost the career prospects of someone who wants to work in consulting, journalism, banking, etc. Some people want to have fun in life, and others are career-focused. To each their own.
19
It is a common perception among many college students (myself included, when I was a student just a couple years ago) that you can't get a decent job (much less a decent internship) without "experience" on your resume.
1
gjm3, there is a kind of experience, perhaps the most valuable, that one can learn from any visit to an unfamiliar milieu, and that is coping skills. If you want to learn competence really quickly, get dropped in a place you've never been before, especially if you don't speak the language well.
We keep hearing that today's college students are immature, plagued by helicopter parents, overgrown children who freeze and call Mum on the cell when the cashier asks 'paper or plastic?' (Another comment, from an educator no less, said a 40-hour work week would be a 'culture shock' to students. That shocks *me* - a student is in a full-time job, namely, to educate himself. He should come out of college accustomed to full-time work because it's what he should have been doing.)
The specific skills of a specific job and career field are not the important skill to take away from travel abroad. What you learn is how to fend for yourself, and that skill is transferable to any career.
We keep hearing that today's college students are immature, plagued by helicopter parents, overgrown children who freeze and call Mum on the cell when the cashier asks 'paper or plastic?' (Another comment, from an educator no less, said a 40-hour work week would be a 'culture shock' to students. That shocks *me* - a student is in a full-time job, namely, to educate himself. He should come out of college accustomed to full-time work because it's what he should have been doing.)
The specific skills of a specific job and career field are not the important skill to take away from travel abroad. What you learn is how to fend for yourself, and that skill is transferable to any career.
1
The article mentions JPMorgan. JPMorgan and the other bulge bracket banks pay their summer hires handsomely, as do the tech firms. There is a reason that most of the kids profiled here are in careers like fashion, public relations, and marketing.
6
Mr. Francis did not have an internship. He took an extended vacation
61
This seems a little judgmental. One need not wear a necktie or be stuck behind a desk all day in order to gain rewarding experience.
2
gjym3,
but would one have to pay $10,000 for that "rewarding" experience? You know, money that parents or the student would have to come up with or through loans.
but would one have to pay $10,000 for that "rewarding" experience? You know, money that parents or the student would have to come up with or through loans.
1
In the new ed world everything can be turned into a commodity, especially when loans are available and someone puts together the leg work for the person who wants adventure but is clueless without someone arranging everything for them. Another profit center preying on students and their families.
17
I don't see how this is "preying" on students. Nobody is requiring any student to buy a program like this - unlike the wildly overpriced textbooks that all schools require their students to purchase...
2
Sorry but it is preying on students. When the experience costs multiples of what it would cost to go to the same country and travel through it for a summer, when your university charges for it and a for profit company charges for it and you get to work as a volunteer while upping your student loan costs it's a way to separate you from your money. I'll bet anything that it's possible to volunteer at the Edinburgh festival without paying for it. Universities should be warning students about taking out loans for things like this and they should stop charging more than a minimal administrative fee for transferring credits unless they actually supervise the experience. And a textbook shouldn't cost what it does, but at least it has some information in it.
5
gjm3,
that depends on how much one needs such "experience" to get an interview. If it becomes required (or nearly so), then it will prove a financial disaster to most students and their parents.
that depends on how much one needs such "experience" to get an interview. If it becomes required (or nearly so), then it will prove a financial disaster to most students and their parents.
The article fails to mention that there is already a wonderful opportunity for NYC college students through the Jeannette K Watson Fellowship (same Foundation as Thomas Watson Fellowship). They send students overseas for a summer long internship and (gasp!) pay for their travel, their health insurance, and their work!
Their work not only transforms the student, but is also helping close the internship inequality gap, as their students are typically from underrepresented backgrounds.
Their work not only transforms the student, but is also helping close the internship inequality gap, as their students are typically from underrepresented backgrounds.
2
It's not limited to internships abroad. At my daughter's university, she is required to work as an intern in order to complete her undergraduate degree, and since it counts as credits towards graduation, the university charges the same price as if she were taking a class with the equivalent credits.
76
Yes, but will this next generation be able to recognize a scam when they see one?
When Mr. Francis graduates from University, he'll likely job-hunt for a year, then finally land a $30,000 per year job, and regret ever taking this expensive 'internship abroad' while paying those massive student loans he has incurred.
26
This is another scam by colleges and universities to gouge students who are already paying outlandish tuition fees, which seem to increase exponentially every year. Internships should not qualify for federally guaranteed student loans to add to the money that these institutions are raking in. If a student is dumb enough to pay $10,000 for an internship where they work for nothing, then let them pay for it themselves.
89
I did this in 2011 through my University. As a French major, it was invaluable for my current career. The thing I found great was the service provided. They asked all of my interests, whether I liked working with a group or team, general preferences, etc and I ended up being matched with exactly what I wanted, an internship in the business sector dealing with creatives and major luxury brands while working independently. My homestay was incredible, it took place in a luxury apartment with a French family who was so warm and welcoming that the cultural experience was equally as valuable as the internship. Also, I gained credits and had a tutor from a top French university.
Paying to work is a bummer, but in my group, we were financially very diverse. Each person had an internship they loved, and the thing about the cost is that some study abroad programs are just as expensive and you receive some planned weekend trips w/ solely Americans, sometimes the teachers are from your uni and employers are just no longer impressed with a semester abroad w/ your fiance dept.
I conclude that it is worth it. With college prices being so high in general, as students, we weren't surprised and did what we had to do. I am completely for making it affordable, but I wonder would the service stay the same. I see many of my peers struggling financially with unpaid internships in NYC anywhere that will take them which is a much larger financial burden and less cohesive with their career paths.
Paying to work is a bummer, but in my group, we were financially very diverse. Each person had an internship they loved, and the thing about the cost is that some study abroad programs are just as expensive and you receive some planned weekend trips w/ solely Americans, sometimes the teachers are from your uni and employers are just no longer impressed with a semester abroad w/ your fiance dept.
I conclude that it is worth it. With college prices being so high in general, as students, we weren't surprised and did what we had to do. I am completely for making it affordable, but I wonder would the service stay the same. I see many of my peers struggling financially with unpaid internships in NYC anywhere that will take them which is a much larger financial burden and less cohesive with their career paths.
4
I feel sorry for the person who the Edinburgh Art Festival would have PAID to do this job, had Panrimo not been able to convince Eastern Illinois to offer it as a "for credit" internship, earning it fees and the college tuition.
I'm trying to figure out how to revise my dad's hoary statement "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" to fit this situation.
Maybe "Why buy the cow when you can get the cow to pay you to milk it?"
I'm trying to figure out how to revise my dad's hoary statement "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" to fit this situation.
Maybe "Why buy the cow when you can get the cow to pay you to milk it?"
88
I have 2 questions:
- Why are student loans considered financial "assistance"?
- On what basis does Eastern Illinois justify charging $6,000 for "internship credits"?
- Why are student loans considered financial "assistance"?
- On what basis does Eastern Illinois justify charging $6,000 for "internship credits"?
117
Good questions, these are the best answers I could come up with.
1 - Because it sounds better and they're being disingenuous
2 - Because they really money and they can
1 - Because it sounds better and they're being disingenuous
2 - Because they really money and they can
1
Any we wonder why these kids can't find jobs? They live in a fantasy world. Want to that their bachelor of arts and make $150k/year, living the "Sex in the City" dream and traveling the world...without actually working. We're doing nothing but creating (or have already created) a generation of high expectation having whiners.
Also, glad to see my federal tax dollars going to fund these vacations (because let's really call them what they are), at the same time Obama has a gall to ask for changes to 529 plans.
Also, glad to see my federal tax dollars going to fund these vacations (because let's really call them what they are), at the same time Obama has a gall to ask for changes to 529 plans.
41
They are told that this will help them land better jobs. Guess who tells them this: the adults in their lives, the colleges, the business community. It's not enough to do well in college just like it's not enough to get good grades in high school. Blame the people who dreamed up the well rounded, socially brilliant individual as their preferred employee or college student. (That's not to say that colleges or businesses know what to do with those people, merely that they claim to want them.)
49
They're the ones living in a fantasy world? You're the one assuming every millennial expects a $150k job out of school, not them.
9
When I was at NYU I did two internships for film production companies. I basically got coffee and ran errands for the producers. Learned nothing other than being taken for granted as free labor. I also then paid NYU tuition credit for the internships. The internships described in this article sound amazing and seem to have actually added meaningful resume building experiences. But companies need to stop taking advantage of students for free labor and colleges need to stop sucking tuition money for non-academic experiences.
159
Kiran, but this is another "profit center" for the university. Hence it is OK.
2
When I was in college we were not expected to go abroad, to have resumes that "jumped" out at an employer, or to use our summers traveling to exotic places to do things we could do in America. We worked over the summers at jobs that paid and gave us entry level experience in the work world. We weren't expected to do internships. Of course this was before there were requirements to use superlatives on resumes and in interviews, before superlatives entered into job requirements. I wonder how much of the difficulties companies have in finding qualified Americans for jobs is due to their indulgence in superlatives when they describe what they want on the job.
We seem to expect everyone to have a rich uncle somewhere who will give them money to go abroad and work or have some culture shock experience, or who will support them as they do an internship for a company that wants to have free labor. Companies can't have it both ways, nor can colleges. We should not be slanting the ability of students to get a decent college education and job towards those who can "afford" to pay for it the way it is now. There used to be a reasonable expectation of what skills an entry level or any level job required. Now it's all superlatives and unrealistic.
We seem to expect everyone to have a rich uncle somewhere who will give them money to go abroad and work or have some culture shock experience, or who will support them as they do an internship for a company that wants to have free labor. Companies can't have it both ways, nor can colleges. We should not be slanting the ability of students to get a decent college education and job towards those who can "afford" to pay for it the way it is now. There used to be a reasonable expectation of what skills an entry level or any level job required. Now it's all superlatives and unrealistic.
145
or they hire H1Bs....
6
Yes, times have changed. I come from the same period and am shocked to see how things have changed over so many years. What's next and what will this eventually lead to? These are very, very scary questions.
3
WHen I was in college, I participated in a "junior year abroad" program. But it was a real study program. I had to speak the language of my host country (French), attend classes at the local university, do individual study work, including writing papers in French, with the tutors hired to direct our program, and go out and find a place to live and somewhere to eat. The fees were the same as if I'd attended my school in the US, and since I received substantial scholarship aid, I also received some for this year, though it didn't cover everything, so it was real starving student existence. It was actually a very enriching year, I did I think my best academic work of my college career there, and I wrote a paper one local professor said was publishable. Maybe I should have just stayed there!
3
How times have changed. Back when I was college student, companies used to actually think that they should pay people for working. During my summer internships, I was reimbursed for my travel and earned a salary that was enough to cover my housing, with a little spending money left over. Nowadays, students have been convinced that they should pay for the privilege of working. Clearly this gives an advantage to students that have money. Kids without resources may be able to cobble together the money, but I would hope that someone would warn them against taking out loans for this type of thing. That summer fetching coffee in London or Paris isn't worth having tens of thousands of dollars of additional debt hanging over your head for years.
138
It is pretty amazing isn't it? The emergence of an apparently viable business model based on getting students to pay thousands of dollars, plus transportation, food, and in some cases housing, for the opportunity to work for free for eight to ten weeks in a French bridal boutique. All to further advantage their pre-existing advantage.
Wealth and income inequality will surely undo us. To the ramparts!
Wealth and income inequality will surely undo us. To the ramparts!
3
I wonder how Mr. Francis earned 9 hours of credit on his intership. What kind of academic supervision did he have?
45
My program had 2 credit hours or preparatory work including a large emphasis on cultural preparation, business prep, exploring sectors pertinent to your career path, very practical resume creating and interview preparation. 2 credit hours of cultural and business analysis reports demanded by my public, American university bi-weekly applied to my French major and then 3 hours from the internship report and presentation which included me working one on one with a business professor from Universite Paris Dauphine, a prestigious French university, several times and then presenting the project as well as 40 page report to a panel to be graded in my second language.
1
That sounds like a great internship.
But the only real question to ask is, how much (or little) is it really the kid's own initiative?
With such seemingly unexhaustable resources from parents, you would think they can just take the easier route to just hire their own darn kids to give them some experience, wouldn't it now. That might suffix in the bygone era, but amidst the global rat race, that simply won't do. For gloating about fantastic experience, I'm not sure if I feel more sorry for the kids or the parents.