The irony of transgender is it has to suppress and call one gender inferior in order to become another.
The transformation of Bruce Jenner it will be iconic in the Reality TV culture. We know Bruce as man, to see the transition it will be a new experience for us, because it's the first time that we see the same person as a man and as a woman later on. Other cases were made public when the transformation was ready. And that makes the difference.
For more comments I talk here:
http://youtu.be/tkL4uKbCgDw
For more comments I talk here:
http://youtu.be/tkL4uKbCgDw
Unless you possess the ability to change the DNA in every cell in your body it is impossible to change gender. Hormones and surgery do not change gender but do provide a spectacle of bizarre behavior that our increasingly disturbed culture finds interesting.
11
You confuse sex and gender and seem to know little of human development and all the variations of intersex conditions that exist now and over time. People are not just one way or the other. Something like one of of 1600 people is neither XX nor XY, and there are all sorts of instances where one's perceived gender (due to the neurobiology on the brain) does not match with the genitalia. We all start out as females and have to be hormonally masculinized at different critical stages of development. It's all FAR more complicated than your description, and trans people do not change their gender: They change their gender presentation to better reflect the actual gender they were born with and who they know themselves to be.
See Functional Neurology, Jan-Mar 2009
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/sexual-differentiation-of-human-brain.html It explains how "the foetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first 2 months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the 2nd half of pregnancy, these processes can be influenced independently, which may result in transsexuality."
See Functional Neurology, Jan-Mar 2009
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/sexual-differentiation-of-human-brain.html It explains how "the foetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first 2 months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the 2nd half of pregnancy, these processes can be influenced independently, which may result in transsexuality."
8
Of course, you are correct, but there is no need for the pejorative rhetoric. There are (and this does not apply to Jenner or Richards) some babies born with ambiguous organs or parts of both, but that is rare.
I'm more concerned with the agenda being pushed by some in the transgender community, to wit, that gender is merely a social construct. No, DNA, and hormones and their impact on our brain and body are very real. For a progressive movement that correctly lauds science, this is an act of ideology trumping empirical fact. There are, and have always been people who saw themselves as of the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean that there is, or should be, some vague intersex third category of humanity.
I'm more concerned with the agenda being pushed by some in the transgender community, to wit, that gender is merely a social construct. No, DNA, and hormones and their impact on our brain and body are very real. For a progressive movement that correctly lauds science, this is an act of ideology trumping empirical fact. There are, and have always been people who saw themselves as of the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean that there is, or should be, some vague intersex third category of humanity.
8
Even Murdoch's WSJ reported that autopsies and MRIs are showing transpeople have the brain structure of their reported genders, both pre and post-hormone therapy. To omit this in addressing Jenner's situation is to pass on education.
4
I've known a transgendered man since we were in kindergarten, when he was still considered female. Not long after college, he very bravely began the long, slow process of transitioning to male. Having known this man - now happily married to a woman - since we were both 5, I have seen firsthand how legitimate this is. Early on it was very clear that he was female only in the most technical, functional way. That was apparent even before we were old enough to grasp what it means to be trans. Too often I've seen comments based on supposition or falsehoods that misconstrue, oversimplify, or distort the struggles and experiences of trans people. Imagine how completely foreign it would feel to inhabit the wrong body, and how inescapable that is - especially if the home environment or society view you as being a "freak of nature" or think it is all related to sexuality and sexual desire. People are ostracized for something they didn't choose to have and may be struggling with mightily.
Yet when it is no longer an abstract concept, when the mystery is stripped away, it is painfully clear just how real and legitimate this is. Some understanding, compassion, and acceptance are vitally important. I hope to see other people in transition find the happiness my friend has. He is a great example of the possibilities being fulfilled.
Yet when it is no longer an abstract concept, when the mystery is stripped away, it is painfully clear just how real and legitimate this is. Some understanding, compassion, and acceptance are vitally important. I hope to see other people in transition find the happiness my friend has. He is a great example of the possibilities being fulfilled.
12
No doubt Ms. Jenner will have a reality series and for once I approve and congratulate her for being part of this sort of television. She will raise up reality television and the dialog surrounding gender issues. It's a win all the way around and I wish her the best of luck in all endeavors.
2
I still can't get over how he made this transition but no one should look down on him for doing this, we all have choices we make. That is why they call it a the adventures of life.
2
Bruce Jenner, as he is still named as of this writing insofar as I'm aware, is to be applauded for his/her courage in so publicly undergoing this seeming transition. S/he will endure a lot of flack and vilification from the prurient and ignorant and hateful (and fearful). But he is blazing a trail which, as Dwight Stones said, will bring daylight to taboo and undoubtedly help educate, and heal or even preclude family relationship difficulties often accompanying this phenomenon.
On the lighter side, it's possible he just wanted to really be “Keeping Up With the Kardashians,” by becoming "one of the girls."
On a more somber note, I'm sure he's devastated by being involved in today's fatal car accident on the Pacific Highway, regardless of actual responsibility. My prayers to all involved, especially the deceased and her family.
On the lighter side, it's possible he just wanted to really be “Keeping Up With the Kardashians,” by becoming "one of the girls."
On a more somber note, I'm sure he's devastated by being involved in today's fatal car accident on the Pacific Highway, regardless of actual responsibility. My prayers to all involved, especially the deceased and her family.
1
Gender assignment surgery is the political correct term for self mutilation. Even for the half of comments on here who supports his transition would react differently if it was a close friend or loved one who went under the knife. If he is feeling that he is having a gender identity crisis, he might want to seek a second opinion. I I was a woman I would be insulted that man would try become a woman. He will never experience a menstrual cycle, carry a child to term, face unequal pay...or achieve a female orgasm with a man. In essence he trying to experience something on a biological level that isn't possible for him. To say at least its a slap in the face to all natural born women in the world. Putting on heels and makeup doesn't make a man a woman.
33
Hi, Damon — I respect your willingness to speak your mind before an audience that's going to resent you for doing it. But substantively, I question some of your views.
First, I believe I've read that modern surgery is pretty amazing at providing sexual function for post-operative transgendered people, particularly male-to-female.
Second, I've known or at least met a few transgendered people over the years, and it's plain to me that they're tormented by feeling like they're in the body of the opposite sex and have concluded without reservation that they'd prefer to "change their sex," to use common parlance, despite the risks.
Without subscribing to your view that gender-reassignment surgery constitutes "self-mutilation"—true self-mutilation is all costs and no potential benefits—I would agree with your implication that this is no trivial step. You are altering your body, whether through surgery, hormones, or both. When you're done, you face the opprobrium of many and the lack of understanding of most. So, yes, this is a tough position to be in. If I were in it, I wonder if I wouldn't prefer to stick with the status quo. Fortunately, I'll never have to find out.
First, I believe I've read that modern surgery is pretty amazing at providing sexual function for post-operative transgendered people, particularly male-to-female.
Second, I've known or at least met a few transgendered people over the years, and it's plain to me that they're tormented by feeling like they're in the body of the opposite sex and have concluded without reservation that they'd prefer to "change their sex," to use common parlance, despite the risks.
Without subscribing to your view that gender-reassignment surgery constitutes "self-mutilation"—true self-mutilation is all costs and no potential benefits—I would agree with your implication that this is no trivial step. You are altering your body, whether through surgery, hormones, or both. When you're done, you face the opprobrium of many and the lack of understanding of most. So, yes, this is a tough position to be in. If I were in it, I wonder if I wouldn't prefer to stick with the status quo. Fortunately, I'll never have to find out.
3
That seems awfully mean-spirited. What objection do you have to a person seeking fulfillment of what they feel is their true identity? Does it harm you, or anyone? Remember our Declaration of Independence makes special reference to human yearning for, and the presumptive rights to, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
7
Well said. One may "feel" like a person of the opposite sex, but this is something that takes place totally within the imagination of the individual, divorced from the biological realities of that sex and the social and interpersonal ramifications that accompany those realities. You are correct: heels and makeup don't make a man a woman. I'm a natural, biological female, a woman, and I haven't worn heels and makeup in almost 50 years. If men want to wear dresses, that's their right. But no amount of surgery, hormone replacement and the cultural accoutrements of gender can turn a male into a female, or vice versa.
5
I hope that because of who Bruce Jenner is -- an extraordinarily accomplished athlete and a person beloved by many from his generation -- his transition from male to female will be the start of meaningful discussion and greater understanding of all things LGBT. I hope it also helps heal the hearts of those of us who have inadvertently shared the closet with an LGBT person who married us because they couldn't face their own truth at the time, for whatever reason. There is plenty of pain to go around, and it's not a competition. The reality is that everyone gets hurt when lives are based on lies. I wish him nothing but happiness and peace of mind.
17
This human being is incredibly brave for putting hirself out there during this tremendously challenging time.
A truly inspirational story.
A truly inspirational story.
8
I am a 27 year old transgender man (born female, identifies as male) and the Jenner story leaves me conflicted. On one hand, anything involving the Kardashians is, by default, a media circus. On the other hand, there is a strong chance that transgender rights and visibility may be advanced when a high profile person transitions. I'm sure many in the transgender community would prefer representation that is not Chelsea Manning, leaking government secrets, or Jenner, making millions riding the Kardashian media train. However, I still hold out hope the American media can use the Jenner story as an opportunity to really bring gender identity and gender dysphoria into mainstream consciousness.
As a side note- it has been difficult for me personally to read the comments here. The NYT is the only comment section I read, as I routinely find the comments as enlightening as the article. Not this time. Let me just say this - if you don't understand why a person would change their gender, count your blessings. Your biological sex aligns with your gender identity. You will not experience increased suicide & homicide rates as a result of your gender identity. You will not be turned away from doctors, ridiculed by strangers, terminated from employers, or rejected by family because you tried to make your outside match your inside. I would much prefer to not be transgender. my life would be easier and cheaper. But the alternative is to be someone I'm not, and that I cannot bear.
As a side note- it has been difficult for me personally to read the comments here. The NYT is the only comment section I read, as I routinely find the comments as enlightening as the article. Not this time. Let me just say this - if you don't understand why a person would change their gender, count your blessings. Your biological sex aligns with your gender identity. You will not experience increased suicide & homicide rates as a result of your gender identity. You will not be turned away from doctors, ridiculed by strangers, terminated from employers, or rejected by family because you tried to make your outside match your inside. I would much prefer to not be transgender. my life would be easier and cheaper. But the alternative is to be someone I'm not, and that I cannot bear.
77
I agree 100% with Jamie. I am not a trangendered person and I can only imagine the pain they must go through and frankly am glad I don't have to suffer such a situation. However, I do hope that if this celebrity does go through with yet another reality show that it will open peoples eyes to the pain and struggle transgendered people must face. I have hope that ignorance and stupidity regarding this issue can be cleared up and compassion and understanding take its place so that your average person can learn to support those with alternate lifestyles and needs. Whenever we prejudice ourselves against people who are "different" we miss out on some of the most brilliant humans alive. It is our loss, but their suffering.
16
I agree about the ick factor with the Kardashian circus. But I also felt conflicted about some of Act Up's more strong arm tactics for raising awareness about gay injustices. Learning to change as a culture is sometimes awkward and weird at first. Go Bruce.
Thank you, Jamey - very well said. I, too, am disgusted with a lot of these comments - I thought NYT readers were way above the clueless ones that read trashy tabloids.
1
"Family members said Jenner rear-ended a vehicle on PCH after being hounded by paparazzi, TMZ reported." 1 person dead, 5 injured.
HOUNDED by PAPARAZZI. Haven't we had enough of these jerks. Wasn't Diana enough to teach them how to behave. So now he will have this on his conscience as well. There ought to be a law, and the media is largely to blame for this nonsense. They are the ONES paying for photos.
HOUNDED by PAPARAZZI. Haven't we had enough of these jerks. Wasn't Diana enough to teach them how to behave. So now he will have this on his conscience as well. There ought to be a law, and the media is largely to blame for this nonsense. They are the ONES paying for photos.
7
A police spokesman says the paparazzi story is untrue. Sounds like spin by Jenner's publicity machine to obscure the facts of the accident and, most likely, culpability.
Which upcoming episode of the Kardashian show will feature this, I wonder?!?!
Which upcoming episode of the Kardashian show will feature this, I wonder?!?!
9
There were paparazzi. They took second-by-second pictures of the crash which the Daily News has already published. Horrible.
But it's a derived demand by the public. TMZ is a very popular show.
What many do not realize is that sexual and gender variations develop before birth and are FAR from uncommon. According to the Intersex Society of N. American, one out of 100 has a body different from standard male or female. This does not include the 5% or so of people that Time magazine reported are gender variant. Trans* folks appear to have typical male or female biology but in fact have brains more like the gender(s) they identify with than the one they were assigned at birth.
All of us begin with female brains in utero, and a series of testosterone surges at different gestational stages masculinizes most boy’s brains. Genitals develop earlier in pregnancy than the brain masculinizes so it’s possible to have the brain and genitalia differentiate in different directions and not match up sex and gender-wise.
Researchers at the Netherlands Institute of Brain Research have pointed to this neurobiological basis for gender identity noting mtf transsexuals have female neuron numbers in their limbic nucleus. Scientists at UCLA have identified 54 genes related to the different organization of male and female brains. Dr. Eric Vilain of UCLA says sexual identity is rooted in every person’s biology before birth. Other researchers have found the white matter of female-to-male transsexuals' brains is like that of natal males.
Clearly, sex and gender are not the either/or binary many suppose.
All of us begin with female brains in utero, and a series of testosterone surges at different gestational stages masculinizes most boy’s brains. Genitals develop earlier in pregnancy than the brain masculinizes so it’s possible to have the brain and genitalia differentiate in different directions and not match up sex and gender-wise.
Researchers at the Netherlands Institute of Brain Research have pointed to this neurobiological basis for gender identity noting mtf transsexuals have female neuron numbers in their limbic nucleus. Scientists at UCLA have identified 54 genes related to the different organization of male and female brains. Dr. Eric Vilain of UCLA says sexual identity is rooted in every person’s biology before birth. Other researchers have found the white matter of female-to-male transsexuals' brains is like that of natal males.
Clearly, sex and gender are not the either/or binary many suppose.
24
Until someone who is transgender can explain to me without using sexist stereotypes why they feel they were born with a brain-body mismatch, I do not think it's clear. Still I am 110% behind no one being discriminated against on the basis of sex or gender in housing or employment.
4
It's not a matter of sexual stereotypes; it's a matter of neurobiology. Take a look at Functional Neurology, Jan-Mar 2009 by Swaab, Dick F, Garcia-Falgueras, Alicia. "Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation."
1
I am not so sure it is wise to mess with one's body at 65. No medical training, but I worry of the effect(s) the up-tick of hormones could have on benign cells/tissue.
9
Isn't it sad that he had to wait until this age to be able to come out and be himself. I think he should go for it and finally be happy. What a difficult decision, but you know as one gets older one quits worrying about what other people think and I think Bruce has finally decided to just be she she really is and be happy. To suffer the rest of her life would not be worth any risk, she has suffered long enough.
9
Who cares and who should care about what this soul does to itself as far as he/she does not hurt anyone really and seek some happiness. A person is free in this universe. We all come (do you know why?), have some small time feeling living in this town, and go. Leave him/her alone.
28
What a wise comment.
9
The notion that this development comes out of the blue is patently false. From the time he attended Graceland College, a small Iowa college affiliated with the Reformed Church of the Latter Day Saints, it was clear to those who knew him that Jenner was a deeply conflicted young man. What his issues may have been, few knew. But the fact that he had a fundamental identity crisis was well known. Hopefully, this helps him resolve his internal conflicts. But the notion that he was a Wheaties cereal box kind of guy and a typical star athlete was never believed by anyone who knew him.
18
Perhaps, but why wait until 65 to resolve his internal conflicts? Oh yeah...The Kardashaians kicked him to the curb, the gravy train slowed to a crawl, and a return to the center ring and his own realty show beckoned. Stop with all the silly talk about his brave journey and follow the money.
Davide incorrectly describes those with trisomy of X&Y chromosomes, including Kleinfelter Syndrome (XXY) as categorically “intersex”. In fact, KS is another example of “biology NOT being destiny” regarding gender.
Wide-spread false assumptions about KS came from sampling error before widespread genetic testing: in the earliest years, the only people identified as such were very troubled, so medical texts falsely asserted that KSers were uniformly “mentally retarded” and/or inherently violent.
In later years, as society became more informed about the complexities of gender identity, it is true that some societally-identified males, who self-identified as female or intersex,sought assistance to have their body match their identity, then discovered they had KS.
However, the other large group of adults who discovered they had KS self-identified as heterosexual males; wishing to conceive a child with a female partner, they sought infertility treatment, with no inkling that they were anything besides a typical male until that time.
Now that children are generally tested for KS at birth, along with many other chromosomal tests, we are developing statistically valid samples for the first time. The research has robustly identified certain medical difficulties (e.g., osteoporosis), but there is no consistent evidence that KS predicts gender identity or sexual orientation.
See GENETIC.ORG (Assn for X & Y Chromosome Variations) for VALID information without pigeon-holing.
Wide-spread false assumptions about KS came from sampling error before widespread genetic testing: in the earliest years, the only people identified as such were very troubled, so medical texts falsely asserted that KSers were uniformly “mentally retarded” and/or inherently violent.
In later years, as society became more informed about the complexities of gender identity, it is true that some societally-identified males, who self-identified as female or intersex,sought assistance to have their body match their identity, then discovered they had KS.
However, the other large group of adults who discovered they had KS self-identified as heterosexual males; wishing to conceive a child with a female partner, they sought infertility treatment, with no inkling that they were anything besides a typical male until that time.
Now that children are generally tested for KS at birth, along with many other chromosomal tests, we are developing statistically valid samples for the first time. The research has robustly identified certain medical difficulties (e.g., osteoporosis), but there is no consistent evidence that KS predicts gender identity or sexual orientation.
See GENETIC.ORG (Assn for X & Y Chromosome Variations) for VALID information without pigeon-holing.
4
Results of GMO
There are people who like to look and dress like women and are heterosexual. I knew a guy from my old town who in his fifties started wearing women's clothes and walked proudly around the neighborhood. I have seen on TV it seems to be something they have wanted their entire lives. There is little discussion about Bruce Jenner's sexual orientation but it appears he is not gay.
Now men who are gay and like to dress up as women or have sexual reassignment surgery is another mindset. From my days in college with a very pleasant gay male roommate one of several roommates at the time. He had absolutely zero desire to dress as women nor to hang out with other men who did. He is an engineer and has a long term partner and has weathered all the storms of being gay in this world rather successfully.
I have 2 friends whose fathers are gay. One was the youngest of 3 boys and his father and mother never divorced and his father never had a male lover. Although he spoke of being gay a little and it impacted all his sons. My other friend's father started sleeping with male lovers and his her mother divorced him. He went to California and died of AIDS there. My friend loves her father's memory dearly and had nothing but support for his lifestyle.
I guess what I am trying to say from all these life experiences that most people are exposed to people with different sexual or gender preferences. For me I find that my old gay roommate was a sweet person and he had an honorable life.
Now men who are gay and like to dress up as women or have sexual reassignment surgery is another mindset. From my days in college with a very pleasant gay male roommate one of several roommates at the time. He had absolutely zero desire to dress as women nor to hang out with other men who did. He is an engineer and has a long term partner and has weathered all the storms of being gay in this world rather successfully.
I have 2 friends whose fathers are gay. One was the youngest of 3 boys and his father and mother never divorced and his father never had a male lover. Although he spoke of being gay a little and it impacted all his sons. My other friend's father started sleeping with male lovers and his her mother divorced him. He went to California and died of AIDS there. My friend loves her father's memory dearly and had nothing but support for his lifestyle.
I guess what I am trying to say from all these life experiences that most people are exposed to people with different sexual or gender preferences. For me I find that my old gay roommate was a sweet person and he had an honorable life.
10
"There is little discussion about Bruce Jenner's sexual orientation but it appears he is not gay."
Of course, nothing has been confirmed by Bruce yet but it's fairly apparent that Bruce is attracted to women, so if it's true that s/he is a trans woman, then Bruce can very well be gay (lesbian) - or at least bi.
Of course, nothing has been confirmed by Bruce yet but it's fairly apparent that Bruce is attracted to women, so if it's true that s/he is a trans woman, then Bruce can very well be gay (lesbian) - or at least bi.
Go wild, Bruce Jenner. Do what you want.
But, please don't describe what he's doing is "heroic."
And I won't be watching any TV shows or interviews with him.
But, please don't describe what he's doing is "heroic."
And I won't be watching any TV shows or interviews with him.
19
It's important to note that for many of the most high profile males to female trans people, the usual public explanation of "I always felt like a girl on the inside" is a talking point that's not very illuminating. For example, I was at MBA school with a man who is now called the highest paid female CEO in America, and there was nothing feminine about him at all in the two months I was on a team with him. A lot of these high profile cases seem to involve extreme cases of masculine arrogance and egomania.
12
The way somebody presents has nothing to do with the gender he or she feels they are. A person does not have to act feminine to have the neurobiology (brain hardwiring) and gender self identification of a woman. Cis women and transwomen both may act feminine, not feminine, both ways, neither way, or any one of many different ways.
What do you mean when you say, "A lot of these high profile cases seem to involve extreme cases of masculine arrogance and egomania"? First, who is to say any of those transwomen are arrogant or an egomaniac . . . you? Second, who is to say the most highly paid female CEO in the country is an arrogant egomaniac . . . you? And third, who is to say it is not feminine to be arrogant or an egomaniac . . . you?
You seem to be making a lot of unfounded and unkind negative judgments about transwomen and what people have to act like to be men or women.
What do you mean when you say, "A lot of these high profile cases seem to involve extreme cases of masculine arrogance and egomania"? First, who is to say any of those transwomen are arrogant or an egomaniac . . . you? Second, who is to say the most highly paid female CEO in the country is an arrogant egomaniac . . . you? And third, who is to say it is not feminine to be arrogant or an egomaniac . . . you?
You seem to be making a lot of unfounded and unkind negative judgments about transwomen and what people have to act like to be men or women.
9
Seems fundamentally illogical to term a MTF trans person an "extreme case[] of masculine arrogance and egomania."
I am saying that these transwomen tend to be arrogant and egomaniacal. Note how many more transwomen vs. transmen push to participate in women's and girls' sports. It's our patriarchal society that is behind this detestable movement to de- gender segregate sports. If a super human species existed demanding to play on boys' and men's teams, the males in our society would come up with special rules or a whole different league to allow this super human species to participate. Why? Because it's not fair to ordinary males. But for women and girls: Walk all over them. They won't complain much. Problem solved.
2
Good for Bruce Jenner- may he be true to himself.
(That pronoun until he says otherwise). I don't see what business this is for anyone else. He always struck me as the most decent person in his family, who really didn't relish the uber publicity.
Jenner hasn't said anything; it's the media that is crazy.
(That pronoun until he says otherwise). I don't see what business this is for anyone else. He always struck me as the most decent person in his family, who really didn't relish the uber publicity.
Jenner hasn't said anything; it's the media that is crazy.
14
You always want what you think you don't have.
6
This is a reality show waiting to happen. The networks must be lining up with checkbooks in hand to bring must see TV like this into the living rooms of the nation's Kardashian impaired. Frankly, I don't care what he wants to do...it's his decision. What bothers me is the extent to which the media has turned this into a carnival and that Jenner seems more than happy to play the bearded lady..
17
This is the media's doing by creating reality TV and the various spinoffs. Keeping Up With the Kardashians,” Does anyone really watch this show? If they do they probably need to turn off the TV and read a book. But that would be a novelty for people today.
4
Transgenderism presumes that sex stereotypes are innate and that surgeries and hormones should be employed when one's personality doesn't line up with one's genital configuration. It is a profoundly regressive and anti-feminist philosophy.
37
Thank you for saying this. As a feminist who grew up in the 60s and 70s, I thought we believed that femininity and masculinity were not bound to things like ruffles or pink dress -- or being big and burly. I thought you could be an utterly complete woman and still work as a longshoreman or construction worker, wear overalls and no makeup, short hair etc. I thought you could be an utterly masculine man, even if you were slightly built, loved show tunes and were a ballet dancer.
Apparently everything I was taught then was completely wrong. If you are not the total stereotype of a 1950s housewife, complete with pearls and lace, then you must be a MAN in a woman's body.
Apparently everything I was taught then was completely wrong. If you are not the total stereotype of a 1950s housewife, complete with pearls and lace, then you must be a MAN in a woman's body.
12
Transwomen come in all presentations. Some go for a very feminine look because that is what they feel like doing and like. Others might pile on the make up and the pink because they have bought into cultural stereotypes or feel they must do that to achieve a womanly look since their secondary sexual characteristics have masculinized them. Still others wear no makeup and blue jeans and sweatshirts with all sorts of different styles in-between--business women, youth culture, preppies and more. Google Julia Serano or Jennifer Finney Boylan or Lynn Conway to see some of the vastly different looks. You are actually propagating inaccurate and sexist stereotypes saying all transwomen look one way when that is totally wrong.
12
this is not about girls who want to drive trucks or boys who want to be ballet dancers. this is about people who look in the mirror and see breasts where there should be a flat chest, smooth hairless skin where there should be a beard. its when you hear your own voice in a pitch that doesn't match how you feel yourself to be. I'm proud to be a transman with a soft spot for "chick" flics and a seemingly unending need to communicate my feelings with others, which are stereotypical female traits. I am not any less of a man just because I haven't shunned everything female from my life. I eagerly await the day my beard grows in, and my body reflects the secondary male sex characteristics I cannot achieve without testosterone. but that doesn't mean I can't be nurturing, or that suddenly i must become a beer drinking football watching Jock. I always was a man even when i had long hair and wore feminine clothes, its just that now my body reflects the male characteristics i was lacking, that gave me body dysphoria
12
Unfortunately, as is evidenced by these comments, his association with the Kardashians debases his credibility for a lot of people. And transgender is unfortunately getting conflated with celebrity.
12
I wish Bruce Jenner the best. I also wish he weren't involved with the folly of the Kardashians.
18
I think that we need to come up with some new terms: "Trans-phobic" for those people who are afraid of transgender people, "trans-confused" for those people who don't understand transgender people, and "trans-adverse," for those people who are against transgenderism, but who are not afraid of them nor confused by them. Because calling someone "homophobic" doesn't really cover it, especially if the other person is fine with gay people, but has a problem with transgender people.
9
I think a lot of people are "trans-confused" (a great word!) I know I am. That doesn't mean we should make fun of, judge or criticize. Bruce Jenner has the opportunity to help explain and educate, another reason to be happy for him that he's coming out.
8
How about "genital mutilation" for the practice, usually for profit, of cutting and repasting one's genitals in a pretense of changing gender?
9
Yeah, but that gets too confusing. "Genital mutilation" can mean anything from what certain African cultures do to girls, to what certain other cultures do to infant boys. And "castration" doesn't cut it, either, pardon the pun, because that doesn't cover the whole procedure.
He's happy, he's not hurting anyone - live and let live!
30
What is it about that Kardashian clan that the media keeps printing/reporting on every silly step of their lives? Stop making them famous and save this page space for something that has meaning.
25
Seems to me Mr Jenner has opportunity, as Rock Hudson had towards AIDS, to profoundly impact societal acceptances of transgenders.
With this legitimacy, perhaps U.S. Congress should dis-invite Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu, and replace with Bruce Jenner?
With this legitimacy, perhaps U.S. Congress should dis-invite Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu, and replace with Bruce Jenner?
6
Why do they call it "reality TV"? This is about as far from reality as it gets.
14
Some definitions... One's biological sex is (roughly approximate to) what your chromosomes say you are, XX female, XY male. (We'll ignore the great complexities in this regard because it will just confuse matters.) Gender is the sex you identify as being. "Sex change," which is obviously technically impossible, is a lay term and incorrect. In medicine, the term is "gender reassignment." "Sexual orientation" describes the sex (or sexes) of the parties to whom one is sexually attracted. So, yes, anyone can change his/her gender. If you have not personally known someone (or many ones) who have felt born into the wrong sex and who have long struggled to live in what they experience as the wrong body and wrong gender norms, you cannot imagine the painful disconnect of their daily lives. There's wrong about wanting to be someone we are not today. Why would anyone dismiss a trans-person's struggle to have their outside looks match their inside feelings?
10
The media (or is it the NY Times in particular) seems utterly fascinated with gender issues! So...ok...but I'm fairly sure this is not going to change my life. I'm pretty sure it won't change the lives of anyone I know, including my LGBT (now that I feel obligated to assign them as such) friends. Or their KIDS...but day in, day out, we get the "LGBT Story of the Day"....BTW, I doubt BJ is going to be held up as too much of a role model at this stage of the game...he's no Adam Lambert....at least not anymore!
7
I have complete respect for transgender people and what they go through. But in the case of Jenner I do not feel the same way. Why is that? I have come to the conclusion that the insatiable need for publicity and attention that he and his clan are know for trumps all else. Their need for fame is like a serious drug addiction. They will do absolutely anything for a small dose of media attention..for a fix. Yes I'm saying it. Kris's sex change is nothing but a depraved publicity stunt . He may think it is real, but it is not.
10
Still wondering how this empircally affects those who so vociferously object.
Will you have to awaken earlier each day, pay higher taxes, take on a second job, give up your first born, change your driving routes, lose 20 pounds?
I ask because it'd be nice to know why the rest of us should entertain what seem to be baseless objections.
Some advice: if the science isn't on your side - as it is on Jenner's - better get a substantive argument if you want to be taken seriously.
Will you have to awaken earlier each day, pay higher taxes, take on a second job, give up your first born, change your driving routes, lose 20 pounds?
I ask because it'd be nice to know why the rest of us should entertain what seem to be baseless objections.
Some advice: if the science isn't on your side - as it is on Jenner's - better get a substantive argument if you want to be taken seriously.
8
Unless Bruce Jenner has actually come out and stated he is undergoing this transformation, I find this to be a bit much. A front page article on 'maybe and what ifs'. Sad commentary on the Times and on the cult of celebrity. It starts to feel like PR and greed from the family but who then would be surprised.
19
Ms. Lyall & Mr. Bernstein have, surprisingly, omitted JAN MORRIS from their list 'famous' transgender personalities. She is an esteemed British writer who had her sex change done in the early 1970s. Check her out if you are too young to remember her!
12
Of what possible interest is it to anyone what sex Bruce Jenner really wants to be? That's his call. In the old days, you could go to see the bearded lady right next to the big circus tent. You know, people packaged as freaks, a commodity off which the shameless purveyor could make some cash. Now the venerable NYT casts Mr. Jenner in the same role, presumably for the same reason. Beyond pitiful.
Mr. Jenner looks like he has found peace and joy and a sense of congruence between his inner and outer life.
Who doesn't want and deserve that?
Who doesn't want and deserve that?
28
BTW let's start using gender neutral pronouns for people who want that. I suggest M. instead of Mr or Ms. What can we use instead of the insufficient (s)he?
Suggestions ?
Suggestions ?
3
Lighten up, Francis.
2
in my experience they/them for pronouns seem to be easiest for cisgender folks to grasp (please don't lecture me about grammar, ppl use they in singular use daily without grief until its suddenly for a transgender person its grammatically incorrect), and Mx. for prefix
2
Sorry to lose such a bloke to the other side! Makes me understand what straight women must feel when they learn that most men who interest them are gay. Alas, a confounded world. A brave man, Bruce Jenner. Godpseed.
1
You're analogy doesn't work. Being gay and being in the wrong body are not the same thing or even analogous - one has to do sexual orientation (to whom we are attracted) and the other has to do with gender identity.
Reading an article that Jenner maybe transitioning doesn't equate to having an understanding how women might feel. In addition, you have no basis for stating, "…they learn that most men who interest them are gay." How kind of your to speak on behalf of women with respect to their interests in gay men - thanks for lumping all women together as if they all think that same way.
Reading an article that Jenner maybe transitioning doesn't equate to having an understanding how women might feel. In addition, you have no basis for stating, "…they learn that most men who interest them are gay." How kind of your to speak on behalf of women with respect to their interests in gay men - thanks for lumping all women together as if they all think that same way.
I am a woman and it still puzzles me that so many men who want to Transgender feel that they have to become the early 20th c. or girlie version of a woman. You don't have to wear dresses or high heels or nail polish or long hair to be a woman or to feel like one. And wanting to wear dresses or nail polish should not make a man feel like he is not a man or that there is something wrong with him.To make everyone more comfortable we should try as a society to stop pigeonholing activities and interests and colors etc as for boys or for girls. At my son's band concert last week there were 15 girls playing flute but no boys..why is that? If a boy wants to play the flute is he criticized nowadays that it is a girl's instrument? Our gender identities should not be so wrapped up in things like this. Let's start dressing our little girls in blue and our boys in pink once in awhile. I think it is easier for girls like me nowadays who used to be called" Tomboys"--now many woman are into sports etc . But boys are very suppressed still at a young age if they are drawn to the things that have traditionally been labeled feminine. They need to feel comfortable pursuing any interest. This may not be the answer for most but it could help some. I support M. Jenner, but putting one's body through that is difficult, whereas wearing nail polish if one wants to should be no big deal.
18
Nicely put...
And one can only wish that those males who wish to transition to female would not only get styling, hormones, surgery and all but also workshops that teach what it means politically to have grown up and functioned for however many years as female. When they put on the girlie outfits, quite a few seem not to give up their male certainty about their rights and the power of their opinions...
On the other hand, maybe they could teach a few more women to be as assertive?
And one can only wish that those males who wish to transition to female would not only get styling, hormones, surgery and all but also workshops that teach what it means politically to have grown up and functioned for however many years as female. When they put on the girlie outfits, quite a few seem not to give up their male certainty about their rights and the power of their opinions...
On the other hand, maybe they could teach a few more women to be as assertive?
8
The Jenner/Kardashian story/family looks awfully similar to the Jackson family/story
7
Call me a cynic, but I think this is part of a huge publicity stunt for "Keeping Up wit the Kardashians".
4
Sadly, the Khardashian family has parlayed their vapid obsession with wealth and material possessions into a business. Bruce Jenner was part of this. Originally a hero for his athletic prowess, he has now become just another accessory in their reality television show. How different things would be had he encouraged aspirations in education and athleticism in his own family, based on his own accomplishments. Now he just joins the K's as another reality freak show. I think he is better than this and I hope he will use his voice to bring some understanding to whatever he is doing. However, since I'm sure Kris is his manager, this is unlikely to happen. In the meantime, the New York Times is not US Weekly and this article on the front page, makes me think I might have to give up my subscription and start reading the Huffington Post. Oh, the pain.
10
Is this real or is the NYT playing into the latest story arc from KUWTK? I somewhat feel sorry for Bruce as he appears to be the only sane person in the Kardashian family. I can't relate to his transgender journey, and if it is true, I wish him well and that he can escape those vampires and move on to a normal happy life.
2
" ... a transition from male to female."
Not possible. Hormones, implants, surgery and clothes can bestow the veneer of female, however the internal structure will always be male.
Not possible. Hormones, implants, surgery and clothes can bestow the veneer of female, however the internal structure will always be male.
22
Gender is not just based upon chromosomes.
3
If not chromosomes (DNA) than what?
2
It seems exactly like the acclaimed TV series Transparent. He comes out as transgender late in life, and experiences the journey with his highly narcissistic loathsome family. Life imitating art?
10
"Though he has not confirmed it, he is widely reported to be in the midst of making a transition from male to female."
Widely reported? By whom? TMZ? National Enquirer? An anonymous family member? Just who are you pinning this on?
"Not that he is seeking secrecy, at least from what is known so far. Mr. Jenner is reportedly in negotiations with Diane Sawyer over an exclusive tell-all interview."
"Reportedly" again. Nice.
"When he reportedly sat the family down to announce his intentions to make the gender transition, Mr. Jenner, his next reality-television project in mind, made sure that the cameras were rolling."
The writers do seem to like that word a lot, though they don't bother to explain, even once, what it means here. Truly a new low in journalism for a paper that until just a few years ago would have been above this sort of sensational, un-sourced reporting.
Widely reported? By whom? TMZ? National Enquirer? An anonymous family member? Just who are you pinning this on?
"Not that he is seeking secrecy, at least from what is known so far. Mr. Jenner is reportedly in negotiations with Diane Sawyer over an exclusive tell-all interview."
"Reportedly" again. Nice.
"When he reportedly sat the family down to announce his intentions to make the gender transition, Mr. Jenner, his next reality-television project in mind, made sure that the cameras were rolling."
The writers do seem to like that word a lot, though they don't bother to explain, even once, what it means here. Truly a new low in journalism for a paper that until just a few years ago would have been above this sort of sensational, un-sourced reporting.
18
Yes TMZ. which far from wild speculation clearly has a direct feed from Jenners PR People ( if you have ever watched TMZ's live show this is made obvious). Also People. You can deride the vapidness of those sources but if you've studied their reporting history you'd know that they are highly credible in their reporting.
I believe each person has the right to participate in whatever sex, race, or religious belief he or she desires. But please stop shoving the transgender movement down our throats. This is a highly personal/serious choice and does not need to become a reality show, or be constantly shown on the front pages of papers and magazines. But with the Kardashians/Jenners, its only always about the dollars. What a sad spectacle about something so private.
12
transgender people deserve visibility, just like everyone else. why should we have to hide because you are cisgender?
What is troubling about the path that Mr. Jenner appears to be on is that he is playing out of his crisis of gender on a national stage. If Mr. Jenner went off, had his surgeries, hormonal and psychological therapies in their respective settings and reappeared fully formed as a woman it would be less disturbing. To undergo sexual transformation would be, I presume, a physically and psychically exhausting ordeal. It is, no doubt, a course of action not taken lightly and one which requires the total commitment of the participant. One must conclude, therefore, that the need to go through the process is so overwhelming that it is worth all the difficulties endured. In Mr. Jenner's particular case however one must wonder -- given his choice to be part of a tabloid television show with the Kardashians -- where precisely the exhibitionistic need stops and the weirdly voyeuristic need begins. It is precisely his link to the endless self promotion of the Kardashian family that calls his motives into question. It seems bizarre to me -- especially if he is preparing to reveal this event in a reality show -- that he would have us watch and that anyone would want to. It seems -- given social media -- that privacy is fading away quickly enough, why anyone would want it to disappear completely seems pathological.
16
Generally these things come down to either one or a combination of the following:
Sex
Money
Power
Perhaps a new acronym- or even a network name!- is in order. Yeah well I got there first, but you can have it.
I'll keep FEH, and what it stands for to myself.
Sex
Money
Power
Perhaps a new acronym- or even a network name!- is in order. Yeah well I got there first, but you can have it.
I'll keep FEH, and what it stands for to myself.
I support everyone's right to be whoever they want to be, etc., etc. But it still creeps me out probably because I have no comprehension about why someone wants to be the opposite sex. Even more amazing is that I'm actually posting something about the Kardashian clan. And perhaps most surprising is that The Times is reporting it.
10
I don't say this to offend anyone -- esp transgendered individuals (some of my best friends are), but I really have to wonder if Bruce is truly transgender or if he's just plain gone nuts.
18
People used to say that about gays.
And the difference is?
1
Bruce Jenner is part of the Kardashian freak show publicity-seeking machine. These people will anything with themselves or to themselves, from Khloe's now-leaking butt implants to Jenner's latest endeavor, all to remain in the limelight and on the pages of the supermarket checkout tabloids. By what rationale did you decide that this article was page one news, eating up additional useful space on the sports pages? At best, this article belongs on the entertainment pages of your paper. In the future, please keep in mind that your paper is the New York Times, not People Magazine, In Touch!, or the National Enquirer.
19
"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" ...
2
I wonder at people who complain whenever a news source reports on something other than politics or tragedy. It seems so narrow minded; I enjoy learning about all manner of topics. This story is much more interesting and newsworthy than the latest plane crash. At this point in our collective experience, when the man who was once widely referred to as "The World's Greatest Athlete," decides to become a female, the most famous person to undergo such a transition, it is naturally of interest to many (perhaps not you), as well as a societal milestone. The main thread, as well as the side stories such as the reality television aspect, are part of how we recognize and understand our culture.
5
Isn't it his/her business and nobody else's?
11
He's making a show about it, so I think he wants it to be everyone's business.
10
Regarding this story and Bruce Jenner: If it was anyone else, whether or not that person was a celebrity, I would say, "OK, I wish you all the best" and move on to the next story.
But Jenner has been married, until recently, to a woman who basically prostituted her family as a way to earn a living and especially, to become celebrities. I have zero respect for her, and only slightly more for Jenner, because he earned his celebrity through his athletic feats.
So I wish Jenner well in the transgender journey, but I have much better things to do with my television watching time than to watch what will certainly be a three-ring circus if the former wife and company are involved!
But Jenner has been married, until recently, to a woman who basically prostituted her family as a way to earn a living and especially, to become celebrities. I have zero respect for her, and only slightly more for Jenner, because he earned his celebrity through his athletic feats.
So I wish Jenner well in the transgender journey, but I have much better things to do with my television watching time than to watch what will certainly be a three-ring circus if the former wife and company are involved!
22
Jenner participated in that show involving his family. Why aren't you saying that he "prostituted [his] family as a way to earn a living…"?
Honestly who cares? The real issue with him and his family is one of the wholly negative impact of their public existence on the rest of society. They are a clear case of moral turpitude in public life having a deleterious effect on impressionable young people and society in general.
Remember the entirety of the basis of this families "business" is a porngraphic film one of them appeared in and then marketed it by pretending it had been "leaked" and the people who had it were making money from it "So why shouldn't I?".
Sure Bruce Is being the role model he always was, Now.
But where was that courage and decency for the last 8-10 years while his family did its best to be reverse role models?
Remember the entirety of the basis of this families "business" is a porngraphic film one of them appeared in and then marketed it by pretending it had been "leaked" and the people who had it were making money from it "So why shouldn't I?".
Sure Bruce Is being the role model he always was, Now.
But where was that courage and decency for the last 8-10 years while his family did its best to be reverse role models?
19
Some years ago I met a young man who had tried to kill himself because his male lover had left him. His problems were compounded by the opprobrium of society towards gay people, and a persistent sense that he was female at his core. He liked to dress and act female, and while hospitalized for depression at a well-endowed academic medical center where any and all tests could be performed, he had his chromosomes tested. Lo and behold, he was a chimera: some of his cells were male, some female. This finding gave him some comfort, although the other issues remained. I don't know if he eventually "transitioned." The term wasn't in vogue yet, and opportunities to complete the procedures were few and far between. This example raised the question in my mind as to whether some of the folks desperate to change their phenotype may in fact be acting in accord with their genotype, or half of it. We don't even know how common human chimeras are, much less whether they correlate in any way with gender dysphoria.
11
Could this be in large part because no matter how people preach "live and let live" that society (and the media) continue to pigeon-hole and classify? Such a propensity discourages exploration of individuality, and fails to celebrate the unique being each of us is, making those who don't 'fit in' feel defective in some way.
4
How is it that a 6 yr old boy who has trouble sitting still in class is hit with a diagnosable 'illness' and put on addictive medications while a grown man who wants to change his gender and has himself surgically altered is considered a trendsetter and TV shows are made about him?
32
At age 65, Jenner "finds" himself. Rather pathetic at best. Who really gives a darn...perhaps the reality TV folks will watch his transformation.
23
I await the day when choosing to be who you always knew you were doesn't make an international news headline.
14
Given Bruce's role in the insane and completely baffling obsession with all things Kardashian, I would not be surprised if it turns out that his "transition" is just another gimmick to garner ever more attention and keep the public eye on this money grubbing, attention grabbing, absolutely no talent family.
24
I don't know how may people are aware of this - but I heard on a recent news program that Bruce Jenner has a TV crew following him around for a reality TV show. While I wish him luck during his time of transition the cynical part of me feels that he learned some lessons well while he was a "Kardashian" and that is never give anything away for free when you can sell it to a gullible public.
13
It's being billed as a "documentary," but as it's slated to be aired on the E! channel, it's probably really more typical of "reality" TV.
New York Times, please don't forget about our first-of-its kind children's picture book about a transgender girl, released in Sept. 2014, "I AM JAZZ." We hope that, by putting this book into elementary public school libraries across the country, we, too, are helping our society to evolve. We do this work in honor of the late Leelah Alcorn and other transkids like her.
8
In addition to the deep inner turmoil and emotional impact on someone famous like Bruce Jenner apparently accepting and acknowledging publicly that he is in the wrong gender, there must in addition also be inner turmoil and an emotional impact on his male and female biological/step children. Thus his transition which means a dramatic change in identity, familiarity, and usual ways of interacting will be a challenge for the entire family. Thus a gender transition is also a family transition which might require work with a qualified family therapist to help restore a sense of wholeness and unity and acceptance of their new reality; their new normal. And despite what we think about the behavior and celebrity of the Jenners and the Kardashians, it's important to remember they are people first. And people need compassion, support, and understanding; not stones tossed by the rest of us flawed in our own special unique ways.
10
People first??? I think not. Celebs first!
That your perfectly reasonable response for any other transgendered person is seriously aimed at the latest Kardashian family stunt suggests you need a reality show check.
That your perfectly reasonable response for any other transgendered person is seriously aimed at the latest Kardashian family stunt suggests you need a reality show check.
6
Said compassion should extend to all family members, not just those who go along with the transitioning person's agenda. Many peoples' lives are affected by this decision, not just the transgenderist's, and not all family members are on board or in need of being gently coerced into getting with the program. Their opinions and feelings need to be respected, too. Instead, speaking from my own experience, in Society's rush to be accepting and au courant, those who don't think that their spouse is "really a woman in the inside" are bullied into silence. Yet, who knows the trans-women better than their former spouses?
1
Or he's faking it for the attention and publicity.
Calling out the cynicism of the spectacle, and/or ignoring it, is hardly equivalent to casting of stones.
Calling out the cynicism of the spectacle, and/or ignoring it, is hardly equivalent to casting of stones.
2
Trans people have historically had very little visibility in this country. If this public coming out does occur (which, it has not yet) it has the potential to influence a wide audience of people to start perceiving trans people in a humane way. Before commenting that there are larger issues we need to be focusing on, consider the numerous trans youth who are kicked out of their homes, and also consider trans adults that are systematically devalued in the job market. Public coming outs, and fictional shows, (like modern family) can and often DO make a considerable impact on the way LGBT Americans are perceived and treated.
10
This business of replacing a binary (masculine/feminine) with a continuum is Derrida 101 and what students first learned about deconstruction--20 plus years ago! At that time the NYT was running a lot of frightened critiques of the dangers of "deconstructionism" (which is how people outside of academia referred to it). Well, now it seems that this deconstruction of the binary of the masculine and feminine is now a fondly held premise by the paper of record. In the last week, the NYT has run a number of pieces praising the trend toward post-binary conceptions and enactments of gender. What gives? Can we expect further deconstruction of binaries--such as true and false, guilt and innocence, real and imaginary? If you want to know where this leads, pick up a book of critical theory from a university press. I don't think you'll want to go there.
13
When "he" becomes "she," the binary remains firmly intact.
13
I don't remember the frightened critiques of deconstruction. I do remember the coverage of a conference in which even its high priests conceded that every real-world application had failed.
4
You are alive or you'r dead - binary. You are pregnant or you'r not - binary. You have Ebola or you don't - binary. Some things just aren't on a continuum n
Good for Bruce! Everyone deserves to be happy. I for one will not judge and wish Bruce the best. I wish we lived in an America where everyone felt the same. Live and let live.
12
Bradley Manning, like Bruce Jenner (supposedly), has merely suggested that he would like to turn in his membership card in the Man's Club......so WHY would the New York Times refer to Manning as "Chelsea" ?
1
That is what she herself has requested. And she is not allowed further transition due to incarceration.
2
That's NOT how it works.
Legally OR anywhere in reality.
You don't get to wake up and declare yourself what you clearly ARE NOT.
Legally OR anywhere in reality.
You don't get to wake up and declare yourself what you clearly ARE NOT.
I wonder if we're reaching the point where we will be yearning for the good ole days of starched-shirt patriarchy and crowded closets.
Downton Abbey-type times, anyone?
Downton Abbey-type times, anyone?
22
I already long for them. The rules and standards that kept chaos at bay are disappearing.
18
Excessive prisons keep chaos at bay. At a huge cost. I find myself strangely driven to quote Donald Rumsfeld, a person I loathe, "Freedom is messy."
I appreciate the coverage on this article New York Times. One correction I'd recommend: when referencing transgendered people who have changed their names, call then by their chosen name first then say previously known as. Otherwise, thanks!
8
I agree...for example it would be better to say "Chaz (previously Chastity) Bono"
6
I am confused.
Chaz (formerly Chastity) Bono had reassignment surgery. Bradley Manning did not.
So why would we call him 'Chelsea,' and what in tarnation should we call Mr. Jenner ?
People do NOT just get to assign a gender to themselves, in my opinion, unless they have taken some steps - either by changing their dress, appearance, or equipment, to reflect the change.
Chaz (formerly Chastity) Bono had reassignment surgery. Bradley Manning did not.
So why would we call him 'Chelsea,' and what in tarnation should we call Mr. Jenner ?
People do NOT just get to assign a gender to themselves, in my opinion, unless they have taken some steps - either by changing their dress, appearance, or equipment, to reflect the change.
3
I am SICK OF THIS TOPIC!
It's none of our business and we're inundated w too much.
It's none of our business and we're inundated w too much.
31
What most startled me was this.. "The cameras were running when he made the announcement to his family. "
I remember Bruce Jenner as an Olympian, and there was a "good guy"
modesty to him, that attracted 1970s teenagers - this was his charisma of. During the summer of 1976 , America emerged from its Vietnam War funk
,Bruce Jenner boyish enthusiasm - and the Tall Ships in New York Harbor - gave many of us happiness and pride
Now, forty years later, he is shamelessly selling himself out for a reality TV show.
So it is not the transformation of gender that disturbs me; rather it is the transformation of character.
I remember Bruce Jenner as an Olympian, and there was a "good guy"
modesty to him, that attracted 1970s teenagers - this was his charisma of. During the summer of 1976 , America emerged from its Vietnam War funk
,Bruce Jenner boyish enthusiasm - and the Tall Ships in New York Harbor - gave many of us happiness and pride
Now, forty years later, he is shamelessly selling himself out for a reality TV show.
So it is not the transformation of gender that disturbs me; rather it is the transformation of character.
57
What an embarrassing departure from actual news for the Grey Lady. Unfounded speculation on celebrity gender transition? Post many more celebrity sleaze articles like this and I'll be canceling my paid subscription.
21
This not based on unfounded speculation. As the NYT has stared this is based on widely reported stories from other new organizations. If you read those stories it is clear those sources have Jenners approval in telling the story. The bottom line is the the NYT did not feel a need to find their own sources since their sim was to discuss the issue not directly report on it.
4
Come on, this narrow band of the rainbow spectrum is well intrenched in the narrative arc of the NYT.
3
Perfect example of what happens when nothing is sacred and everything in ones life is exposed. When extreme is no longer enough. When is enough, enough? When do the thrills become too much? When you have done all and have seen all, what is left? This is a farce, a medical travesty. That whole family is so mentally disturbed as well as out of touch with what is important. Money IS the root of all evil as well as stupid decision making. Lets see if really means it and cuts off his pen's. THAT should make excellent reality TV and the ratings would probably surpass the Superbowl
16
Please, please, please (!) do some research into the subject matter before forming an opinion and posting it to the world. There are so many ignorant comments here about what it is to be transgender or to have gender dysphoria, and there isn't room enough in one post to address them all. Read about it, or talk to psychologists, psychiatrists, and medical doctors, or look it up in the DSM.
The bottom line is this: what we're talking about is a serious medical condition that affects many human beings and thus deserves, at the very least, an attempt at an accurate understanding of the facts. Those affected deserve the basic human dignity to be dealt with fairly and honestly; meaning, they deserve to be judged based only on the truth rather than uninformed conjecture.
Although Bruce Jenner has not publicly stated any intention to transition, which makes the premature publicity a bit troubling, the underlying issue is absolutely newsworthy. Gender dysphoria and transitioning is newsworthy because it's a serious medical condition that the public is so terribly ignorant about to the degree that transpeople are vulnerable not just to rude comments and discrimination, but even violence. The disproportionate murders and suicides of transpeople alone make gender dysphoria, and the public's ignorance of it, especially newsworthy.
The bottom line is this: what we're talking about is a serious medical condition that affects many human beings and thus deserves, at the very least, an attempt at an accurate understanding of the facts. Those affected deserve the basic human dignity to be dealt with fairly and honestly; meaning, they deserve to be judged based only on the truth rather than uninformed conjecture.
Although Bruce Jenner has not publicly stated any intention to transition, which makes the premature publicity a bit troubling, the underlying issue is absolutely newsworthy. Gender dysphoria and transitioning is newsworthy because it's a serious medical condition that the public is so terribly ignorant about to the degree that transpeople are vulnerable not just to rude comments and discrimination, but even violence. The disproportionate murders and suicides of transpeople alone make gender dysphoria, and the public's ignorance of it, especially newsworthy.
24
Frankly, I'm shocked the NYT is covering this story. Let this person have some peace.
7
We all need a break from this daily report on people's most private lives and the intimate details. I'm sorry for the victims, but we do not read about cancer patients every time a new one undergoes chemotherapy.
4
Bruce Jenner doesn't want peace. He's a celebrity. He wants publicity.
But I agree, the Times has better (real) stories to cover.
But I agree, the Times has better (real) stories to cover.
19
Might I suggest rampant narcissism is at the core of the Jenner-Kardashians?
7
So, the NYT gave me a satisfaction survey and asked me how the newspaper could improve. I said to stop having stories which are not important news given front page billing. Here we are, it is still happening.
22
Bruce Jenner does not need anyone's sympathy. He'll experience no more derision than he already has as part of the Kardashian juggernaut, of which he has been a willing and eager participant. And Jenner will milk this for all it is worth, and gain himself another fortune in the process. If other trans people are aided by this, that of course is all to the good. But whatever Jenner is doing, he's doing for himself, first and foremost. As always. Need any further proof that transgender people are indeed just like the rest of us?
17
If it makes him happy and feel fulfilled then I'm not going to criticize that. After all I unequivocally support everyone's personal choices in these matters. At the same time I'm not going to deny that I don't find it a bit odd considering the course of his life and the age he's chosen to go through with this. It's a bit sad to think that 65 years could be spent feeling unhappy or unfulfilled. One also has to question his relationship with his former wives. As he has chosen to put EVERYTHING in the public eye with his marriage to Kardashian and so forth, I personally don't care one way or the other what he does or for what reason. Good luck to him and that's that but no, I will NOT be watching the reality show which is sure to follow.
5
Really, this is none of my business.
9
No it's not or mine either but it seems Jenner thinks otherwise, doing what he is doing not just in full public view but in the glare of the bizarre family and its television programs.
6
Trouble is, Bruce, along with the Kardashian clan, want to make it your business. And they are very good at it.
5
He's trying to help young people be ok with themselves. Maybe he thinks his public transition will help young people do it before it's too late.
1
Mr. Jenner is just one more reality tv star who will do anything for money. Nothing more nothing less. A publicity hound from a family that has shown that they have no limits. Everything and everyone is for sale. He is a disgrace and hopefully not an example to anyone for anything.
14
Another article about Bruce Jenner that fails to use the word 'narcissism' to identify the kind of personality we're dealing with. Who cares what a narcissist does, since it's only for themselves?
16
Except that it affects, and frequently damages, other people.
2
I do not understand, yet I can't help but be overwhelmed by sympathy for all those folks around the world and over the course of history who face/d their gender dysphoria without any ability to change their bodies and who coped in other ways. We are most certainly called to respect and love one another in all our multilayered mystery!
4
I have to ask myself, like Cicero, Cui bono?
5
I'm sorry New York Times, but when speaking about transgender people, use their current name and put the former in parentheses, not the other way around. They are no longer their pre-change name.
9
While I support anyone's efforts to be comfortable in their own skin, I have to admit, I don't get the need to mutilate and try to reshape an otherwise healthy body. It just never looks quite right. Chaz, with his small woman's hands and feet, Finney Boyle or Bruce, with the height and breadth of a strapping dude. You may feel like Gisele inside but all the surgery in the world won't make us her; sex as well as sexual identity exists on a spectrum, and I wonder if our culture, desperate to label, to be either/or, encourages radical moves like surgery.
17
Many American Indian societies believed that gender was not just physical but was, more importantly, psychological, social and spiritual. The individual concerned was the one who made the decision, and then wore the appropriate clothes and adopted the appropriate social and sexual roles. Surgery was not possible, but was also not considered necessary.
If we hadn't committed genocide against these societies, we might have benefited from their wisdom, and in the process avoiding much pain and suffering.
If we hadn't committed genocide against these societies, we might have benefited from their wisdom, and in the process avoiding much pain and suffering.
2
I agree -- I get the impression that many people who "transition" from one gender to another, have unrealistic expectations about how they are going to be viewed by others. A tall man with a deep voice, big hands, adams' apple, and blocky, large head, is never going to have a very feminine form. He can't demand that other people buy into his fantasy that he is a woman, any more than he can demand that people call him a cat if he wakes up one day and decides he is really a cat. I don't call those who transition from male to female, "women", I call them transgender women, and there is a difference. People have the right to define themselves according to their own worldviews, but I also have the right to define others according to my worldview, and in my worldview, like that of the Native Americans who believed in "two spirit" people, there is no need to change one's body to "become" who one is.. One already is who one is. Medical alterations are not needed for self-realization. A man who thinks he needs surgery to "transition" to be the woman he always was is like the 80 year old socialite who believes she needs plastic surgery to be the 29 year old woman she is certain she always was and still is. There is something misguided and somewhat pathetic about both situations.
6
don't know.
don't care.
don't care.
9
This is 2015. Why all the fuss? Live and let him / or her, live.
4
This should be a private, personal change. By going out on 'E' and showing the ongoing transformation he is just making a spectacle of himself. Or maybe, that's the idea to get another fifteen minutes of fame n his old age. Nihilism and Narcissism at it's worst, all while making a ton of money. The Kardashians! are giving the support he needs. The rest is all degenerate self-absorption. And gullible as we are ,we are going along with the narrative - Oh! A real Hero. Even his Olympic medal does not make him a super athlete.There are other athletes who rightfully DESEVE that adulation and honor.
8
What bothers me most is the intellectual dishonesty. The naked emperor is applauded by the media and duped public for his magic garb, and persons like Jenner are the ultimate victims. We KNOW from repeated long standing studies that gender reassignment does not solve the problems that drove the person to question their natural genotype. Indeed, it appears that suicide rates are possibly higher AFTER such reassignment. And, you cannot go back. His natural good looks will be traded for faux female, as his facial structure and windpipe won't change, telegraphic across a room "gender change." His natural sexual function will disappear. He will be lucky if he has undisturbed urinary function for the rest of his life. He will have to relearn the most fundamental social affectations that we all acquired or expressed as toddlers. Every outing as a "woman" will be an intense cognitive exercise of filtering actions and responses. I don't know what stressors inhabit his life, but this is not the solution. His narcissism may provide a much needed boost to him, but when that runs out, and the cameras fade away, what then? The only winners are his physicians and greedy family members, magpies picking the meat of his soul. Indeed, they and his doctors are traffickers in the souls of men. May God forgive us! My advice: stop, before it is too late!
34
Bravo.
10
Bravo.
God bless you for telling the truth, free of "political correctness'.
God bless you for telling the truth, free of "political correctness'.
4
I pray for "his" kids loss. As a daughter or son, I would be heart broken and disgusted - probably would not have any close relationship with this selfish person I thought was my "father" ever again.
12
That's a pretty homophobic statement. If my dad decided he would be much happier living his life as a women I would tell him: "Go ahead dad!" Why? Because I just want my dad to be happy.Unlike you I'm not the slightest embarassed by having a drag queen as a father. Of course I would be very concerned of all the health risks involved in a sex change but he's a full grown adult with a good brain who has balanced out all the pros and cons. So who am I to tell a grown up person how he needs to live his life?
4
Frankly, sir, I don't give a damn.
15
I feel uncomfortable commenting on this because he has not confirmed it. I wish the media would STOP writing about it until if/when he does confirm it.
3
Someone help me with this. I'm as liberal as you can get. Imagine if Che and Emma Goldman had a baby, with Karl Marx and Rosa Luxemberg playing Godparents. Why do I have trouble with media reports of these things? I feel very confused and old and am (usually) neither.
8
Ah, the importance of the rich and famous!
7
As a psychologist, one of my current transgender patients is 65 years old and has been struggling with these issues since approximately age 5. The critical attitude of family and society is what still keeps him from coming out.
He spent his whole life keeping this secret and feeling that no one knew the real person he was. I am the first person to whom he told the truth. This person is not at all like Bruce Jenner, he avoids attention and drama and from appearance no one would guess he's anything other than a typical macho guy.
It's sad to read many of the comments here showing that little has changed since my patient's childhood. No wonder he still feels it's not safe to transition...
He spent his whole life keeping this secret and feeling that no one knew the real person he was. I am the first person to whom he told the truth. This person is not at all like Bruce Jenner, he avoids attention and drama and from appearance no one would guess he's anything other than a typical macho guy.
It's sad to read many of the comments here showing that little has changed since my patient's childhood. No wonder he still feels it's not safe to transition...
22
I fully despise celebrity stuff and "The Kardashians" type shows and have zero interest in them but because of the reason you aboved exposed I believe that the transition male to female in the spotlight of this celebrity (ex macho man, olympic athlete, smart business person and well respected member of society) is a very important step in the acceptance of transgender people.Like you just said we're still leaving in a very close minded society when it comes to transgender people. Like your patient transgenders are not socially accepted (try being one and getting a job!). So (despite my dislike of celebrity stuff) I'm very happy to see sex change in the spotlight as part of our pop culture. Bruce Jenner is the Rosa Parks of transgenderism and I'm glad he's doing what he's doing. In the meanwhile if he makes a lot of money from it kudos for him.
2
Thank you. This comment deserves a gold flag and many more recommends.
The ignorant and prejudiced seem to have a preponderance here today.
The ignorant and prejudiced seem to have a preponderance here today.
1
Stop it. Bruce Jenner is not the Rosa Parks of anything. Jenner is a wealthy reality "celebrity" who can do whatever he wants and according to gossip is changing his gender. He hasn't yet confirmed but his situation is nothing compared to what blacks went through during Jim Crow. No one has burned down his home, lynched him or stopped him from doing anything. He can vote and should he ever take a bus (I doubt he ever has), he can sit anywhere.
8
One of these days these stories will no longer qualify as "news." I can't wait.
31
It seems odd for The New York Times to speculate about someone's gender.
24
Why do I need to know this?
30
Editorial Board decided it is within the scope of All the News That's Fit To Print.
3
Because it is a man bites dog story and those by definition are newsworthy.
2
Having had a beloved transgendered friend, I have never become accustomed to the way that so many people permit their childish caricatures of the topic to blind them to the deadly serious emotional reality of the transgendered person.
I usually see only caricatures in reality shows, but they can't hole a candle to the bold impersonation of Archie Bunker offered by anyone who thinks such an event would ever be undertaken as a publicity stunt.
I usually see only caricatures in reality shows, but they can't hole a candle to the bold impersonation of Archie Bunker offered by anyone who thinks such an event would ever be undertaken as a publicity stunt.
7
What if it turns out that the entire Kardashian platform ends up being nothing more than a runway for a national conversation about a subject we all need to grow up about? If this story about Bruce is true, Bruce didn't just start having these thoughts. They've been a part of his life since way before the Kardashians came along. Maybe Bruce Jenner is about to drag the entire world into a conversation that needs to take place. She might just end up back on a Wheaties box. And that would be a good thing. So, the Kardashians will have performed quite a public service. Maybe.
Actually, nothing "brave or courageous" about it--just another decadent mass-media sideshow satisfying the ever demanding needs of the obsessive celebrity locusts and the ad machines that promote them. It is always about money, and the "look-at-me" culture that i-chip technology has by "good fortune" and ineffable happenstance created for seeming desperate and simple souls, i.e., a "bi-product" of what was never intended or imagined.
So it goes on planet earth, but, in the end, it is good business regardless of what it might bring to or say about our current cultural ethos.
So it goes on planet earth, but, in the end, it is good business regardless of what it might bring to or say about our current cultural ethos.
15
this is extremely SAD & PATHETIC !! why is this even featured on the New York Times.. very disappointed.
22
If this is what Mr. Jenner wants and needs that is his/her business and I support it.Turning it into a reality TV event somehow smacks of commercialism and money.
16
What the real shock here? That the New York Times seems hell-bent on 'muscling in' (Is endless muscle and bikini body coverage, a la Daily Mail, next?) on the rag mags' racket. How about getting out of the gossip biz and going back to real news and analysis, before the 'newspaper of record' becomes just another newspaper that's wretched (and wrecked)?
26
Bruce is obviously seeking attention and he is getting all he wants from the press. Same is the press is only hurting his daughters and son. Kylie and Kendall are still teenagers.
4
Top Story? Really?
Way to go NYTimes. You are now on the same level as E! and the rest of the tabloids. I didn't read this article but I presume it isn't truly "news."
How about an article about Kim Kardashian. Because she is really important.
Way to go NYTimes. You are now on the same level as E! and the rest of the tabloids. I didn't read this article but I presume it isn't truly "news."
How about an article about Kim Kardashian. Because she is really important.
36
Wheaties will have to put out an anniversary special box.
14
And well they should. We can all celebrate how far we've come.
2
In the coming days, Mr. Jenner is going to face an incredibly difficult challenge: What to do with such a masculine first name? I, for one, recommend she part with tradition and switch things around a bit and add a little James Bond theatrics when asked who she is: The name is Bruce, Jennifer Bruce.
4
Ever since the beginning of the human race there are two kinds of beings: those with an XY chromosome, who are male, and those with two XX chromosomes, who are female. Sorry but those are the facts, based in biology, detectable at the cellular level. The rest is mental illness and the malaise of a first-world society. For the New York Times to be postulating that "gender is not binary but exists along a continuum" is not a fact, but politically-correct malarkey to try to stay alive in the digital age. Witness the fact that a recent article was referring to the reporting of tabloids such as "In-Touch" and "Us" along with colorful illustrations of their sensationalistic cover. I'm not old, or right-wing, or religious, or politically conservative. I'm just grossed out and fed up.
36
That's incorrect. There aren't just XX and XY combinations of sex chromosomes. There are also X0, XXX, XXY, XYY and others we may have never noticed. Aneuploidy of sex chromosomes are actually generally viable and actually speak to the complications of sexual development physiologically. Second, the mental and cultural connections we have assigned to genders is a social construct, specifically in Western cultures. There are cultures around the world historically or currently that were or have been enough removed that they do not assign similar constructs.
You may be grossed out and fed up with it, but that doesn't mean you're correct by any means, in fact, everything you've said is blatantly untrue. Fortunately for everyone else, you'll be more and more disenfranchised as the rest of the world begins to move past your myopic viewpoint and issues like these become non-issues and we can forgo giving a second thought to how people display and perceive themselves so long as they're simply contributing to our society. Unlike yourself, in this instance, at least.
You may be grossed out and fed up with it, but that doesn't mean you're correct by any means, in fact, everything you've said is blatantly untrue. Fortunately for everyone else, you'll be more and more disenfranchised as the rest of the world begins to move past your myopic viewpoint and issues like these become non-issues and we can forgo giving a second thought to how people display and perceive themselves so long as they're simply contributing to our society. Unlike yourself, in this instance, at least.
6
"The rest is mental illness . . . I just grossed out and fed up."
and, incredibly myopic, uninformed, mistaken.
sad. just sad.
and, incredibly myopic, uninformed, mistaken.
sad. just sad.
7
So where does Caster Semenya fit in? Here is a sentence from a 2009 NY Times article about her:
The [South African] ministry did not say if she would be allowed to compete as a woman but they did note that the IAAF's threshold for when a female is considered ineligible to compete as a woman is unclear.
Please notice it refers to a "threshold", not the simple explanation for gender asserted in the message above. The IAAF employ people who specialize in studies of gender and they have trouble trying to remove all the grey areas to make everything black and white, or to be specific, male and female. One could argue that since the beginning of the human race human beings have had two arms too. Except some are born with one or three. Ever since the beginning of the human race human beings have had individual bodies, except that conjoined twins do exist.
The [South African] ministry did not say if she would be allowed to compete as a woman but they did note that the IAAF's threshold for when a female is considered ineligible to compete as a woman is unclear.
Please notice it refers to a "threshold", not the simple explanation for gender asserted in the message above. The IAAF employ people who specialize in studies of gender and they have trouble trying to remove all the grey areas to make everything black and white, or to be specific, male and female. One could argue that since the beginning of the human race human beings have had two arms too. Except some are born with one or three. Ever since the beginning of the human race human beings have had individual bodies, except that conjoined twins do exist.
3
I'm puzzled by all these claims that this is Jenner's "business" and he should thus be left alone. But his life is his "business". And as an exhibitionist, his business is to make his so-called private life public. This coyness about his sex change is apparently a kind of advertisement for his new reality show. (And it seems to be working very well!) I suspect that his quandaries about his gender identity are less pronounced than his confusion about who or what he is. Does Jenner find meaning and coherence in his own terms as a human being living in the world, or does he find meaning and coherence in the objectified image that appears on television? Perhaps once Jenner sees himself as a woman on his own television show it will finally be real for him.
13
"Other prominent people have been here before. But never has the process been played out quite like this — at the intersection where celebrity exhibitionism meets public voyeurism. "
This hardly seems to be an accurate description. I don't see that he is running around shouting from the rooftops anything about his transition. It is the media that is making this a circus. Americans like black and white--it is what they can handle---all they can handle given their attitudes about most things. 1 man, 1 woman, the woman made from a rib, etc, etc ad nauseam.
This is a personal choice and not something connected with his sports past or other of his public occupations.
Why not just leave the guy alone?
there is nothing to say that he is not the same person he was--he simply wants the outside to match the inside. Is that really so difficult to imagine. Women do it all the time.
This should not be a public issue. If people have noticed a difference there is no need to point it out. It is both rude and insensitive. Butt out folks.
This hardly seems to be an accurate description. I don't see that he is running around shouting from the rooftops anything about his transition. It is the media that is making this a circus. Americans like black and white--it is what they can handle---all they can handle given their attitudes about most things. 1 man, 1 woman, the woman made from a rib, etc, etc ad nauseam.
This is a personal choice and not something connected with his sports past or other of his public occupations.
Why not just leave the guy alone?
there is nothing to say that he is not the same person he was--he simply wants the outside to match the inside. Is that really so difficult to imagine. Women do it all the time.
This should not be a public issue. If people have noticed a difference there is no need to point it out. It is both rude and insensitive. Butt out folks.
1
Mr Jenner has had his fifteen minutes of fame -- in 1976. He was lucky enough, or fortunate enough, to make a pile of money in aircraft leasing. He sold his firm and married into the most dysfunctional family in our galaxy.
Please allow us to remember the Olympic hero and not the circus sideshow he's become.
Please allow us to remember the Olympic hero and not the circus sideshow he's become.
57
" circus sideshow he's become. "
That is not exactly fair. I don't see that he is running from talk show to talk show. It looks more like he is being TURNED into a freak show by the media.
That is not exactly fair. I don't see that he is running from talk show to talk show. It looks more like he is being TURNED into a freak show by the media.
1
I have nothing against Mr/Ms Jenner. But I would not want my brother to marry him/her............
8
What surprises me, is that after fathering several children by different wives he didn't have his male sexual identity clear by now.
28
Gender identity -- seeing oneself as female, for example -- is not the same thing as sexual orientation. A person can be attracted to women or to men (or both), regardless of his/her own identity.
12
It is pretty common for transgendered males to attempt maleness, even hyper-masculinity, ambitious careers, and fatherhood as they struggle with what they feel inside that society tells them to deny.
This is a private matter until Bruce speaks out. I wish the press would be more responsible and not use this matter to sell mag. & newspapers. Using words like 'shock' is not helpful. Gee, leave the guy alone. This has to be a difficult transition for him an needs all the support he can get from his family an professionals involve.
12
Doesn't the article say that he announced it with the cameras rolling during the "family show?" Not so private now.
6
Really? He is part of a reality TV show. His transition is being filmed for another TV show which will air I assume when he becomes completes the process. He has never made any public claims that he was uncomfortable as a man. He has been a husband and father for quite some time. So I believe that it is appropriate to use the word "shocking" in his case.
7
Private? The man's family is the subject of a "reality" show on television. He surrendered his privacy long ago -- as well as any dignity he might have had.
6
I feel A reality show coming soon, to a screen near you. Built in Kardasian cast, cost free story, sets, veteran crew in place, first to exploit Transgender transformation on reality TV series - fabulous low hanging fruit for a producer and another $100 mil in profits for classless exploitation on TV.
What a world we live in!
What a world we live in!
27
Greg, you hit the nail right on the head.
7
Perfectly put! It's sweet but naive to demand that everyone give Bruce some privacy. I had the opportunity, if that’s what you’d call it, to work with the Kardashians a few years ago. I only met Bruce once, but he seemed a fish out of water among all the entitled, selfie-addicted Ks. Still, I guess you don’t end up married to a woman like Kris without some taste for crass publicity and a willingness to do anything for money; apparently Bruce has been gulping the Koolaid all along. If he is transitioning to a she, and is happy, then I’m happy for him. But how lovely it would be to do so without turning it into a K-style spectacle.
4
It is biologically impossible to transition from male to female. Despite plastic surgery and constant hormone injections your underlying XY chromosome structure and anatomy male remain unchanged; you do not suddenly develop a uterus, etc. In fact, having worked in the underwriting department of a life insurance company, I can also point out that for those reasons your life expectancy remains that of a male, and your premiums are rated and calculated as a male.
28
Biologically, there are no variations of xx, but some are born with variations of xy. Some are xxy, xxxy, xxxxxy and so on.
Perhaps underwriting departments should consider this.
Perhaps underwriting departments should consider this.
7
"It is biologically impossible to transition from male to female. "
I don't think anyone disputes that from what little I have read. I think it is all about matching your outside to reflect what is already in your BRAIN--it is not necessarily what's between your legs that makes your who you are.
I don't think anyone disputes that from what little I have read. I think it is all about matching your outside to reflect what is already in your BRAIN--it is not necessarily what's between your legs that makes your who you are.
6
Get your copy of Taber's medical dictionary out and look up Klinefelter's disease and also look up hermaphrodite.
I'm glad you work in life insurance and NOT medical insurance.
I'm glad you work in life insurance and NOT medical insurance.
5
With so much real news in a world full of crises, why is the transition of a one-time celebrity front page news? I have no problem with the transition; I admire the change for someone who feels the need to do so, but news it ain't. Perhaps the style section or the health section might be more appropriate?
16
If this has not been confirmed by Bruce Jenner and is based solely on widespread speculation, why are you writing a NYTimes story on it? This does not seem ethical.
24
My thought is how is this any different from being gay? It's not something we choose, but something that we've felt and known since birth. Society pressured us not to act on what we felt. The passing of the years brought more acceptance. That is exactly what will happen here, but the pace will be much much slower. It is a lot for most people to take in. But, if it is true, I applaud Mr. Jenner for having the courage to make this public and to inspire, just like Michael Sam did for gay, closeted people, the ability to be proud of who they are.
13
Why is the NY Times even covering this 'story', and giving it this much attention? Are there no other stories to be covered?
24
In the 1970s, my friend's daughter's eye surgeon informed his patients of an extended vacation and a planned return as a woman. As I recall, most of his patients were children. In the end, my friend said the disruption seemed minimal. Maybe it was an empathetic sampling. Some of the patients had endured being called "cross-eyes" at school.
3
Since he has not confirmed this, I find the attention sad given what the possible alternative might be. I don't know what it is -- illness either physical or emotional, attention-seeking, I have no idea -- but if true, what has he not said? And if not true, why torture the man through obsession with his gender identity?
4
Let's hope he doesn't go all the way. That would be too distressing.
3
" That would be too distressing." for whom? You? That's is totally IRRELEVANT.
4
Not at all amusing. Silly.
1
I do not mean to be a snob or rude. But, why is this article featured in the NYT??
15
"There are also talks of a reality television show about his transition."
+++++
Really? Whatever Jenner's personal situation is, this is fast becoming a freak show and I do not mean transgender people or people in the process of transitioning. Good lord, please don't let this become a ratings event.
+++++
Really? Whatever Jenner's personal situation is, this is fast becoming a freak show and I do not mean transgender people or people in the process of transitioning. Good lord, please don't let this become a ratings event.
9
It is hard to understand why so many commenters believe that the publicity and ratings are behind Bruce Jenner's transition. Where is the compassion for the athlete who most likely is going through the most difficult and challenging period in his life. I suggest that those who see in Jenner's decision the Kardashian angle put themselves in his place, and see whether their conclusion about his motives remains the same.
6
Considering Bruce's connection to the self-absorbed Kardashians, this appears more of a publicity stunt than anything else.
9
“It’s such a courageous act, if she’s going to be transitioning publicly and subjecting herself to that kind of ridicule."
Courage - no doubt. It takes a lot of courage to become the athlete Jenner was, let alone what he's doing now. To me, celebrity culture is a carnival freak show, but still I wish him the best.
On the other hand, his decades of life in public have been a series of vaccinations against ridicule - capped by the Kardashian booster shots. if there's anybody prepared to weather public ridicule, it's Bruce Jenner.
That said - Jenner is just the latest event (one of the more innocent ones) in what seems like an increasingly weird world (beheadings, drone warfare, Google Glass, Roundup-ready corn) existing in parallel with the ordinary world (love, children, war, starvation, disease, art). If I think about it too much, I feel increasingly disconnected from both, as if I'm reading a William Gibson novel while I'm also living in it.
From Bruce Jenner to William Gibson - see what I mean? Not so many degrees of separation.
Courage - no doubt. It takes a lot of courage to become the athlete Jenner was, let alone what he's doing now. To me, celebrity culture is a carnival freak show, but still I wish him the best.
On the other hand, his decades of life in public have been a series of vaccinations against ridicule - capped by the Kardashian booster shots. if there's anybody prepared to weather public ridicule, it's Bruce Jenner.
That said - Jenner is just the latest event (one of the more innocent ones) in what seems like an increasingly weird world (beheadings, drone warfare, Google Glass, Roundup-ready corn) existing in parallel with the ordinary world (love, children, war, starvation, disease, art). If I think about it too much, I feel increasingly disconnected from both, as if I'm reading a William Gibson novel while I'm also living in it.
From Bruce Jenner to William Gibson - see what I mean? Not so many degrees of separation.
12
Actually this is NOT new. Read Christine Jorgensen's book written in the 1960's I believe. "Entertainer, author and famous transsexual Christine Jorgensen handled public scrutiny in 1950s for having a sex change from a man to a woman." at wwwdotbiographydotcom. There have been quite a few who made the "transition" but unfortunately for Mr Jenner , he is part of the fodder for media exploitation due to his connection with the K family.
check out the famous travel writer James Morris now JAN Morris. A few years ago there was a famous concert pianist in NY who also became a woman. People are so poorly informed ---AND SO BIASED.
check out the famous travel writer James Morris now JAN Morris. A few years ago there was a famous concert pianist in NY who also became a woman. People are so poorly informed ---AND SO BIASED.
5
I intend no disrespect when I say that, in consideration of the splendid young athlete he once was & the father he became, the whole business is bizarre. I do think, as an aside, of Liberace who famously "cried all the way to the bank."
8
I think the fact that he was gay had NOTHING to do with his ability to play the piano which is WHERE he derived his income. He may have been a flamboyant showman but obviously many people paid to see him and thus he made frequent trips to the bank.
1
There must be something wrong with me. I don't find Jenner's decision to undergo gender reassignment shocking or alarming in the least. That's not to say I understand it; no offense, ladies, but there is absolutely nothing about being female that appeals to me. Nothing. Being male with all its inherent privileges and perks seems to me a huge advantage.
But, should I become unhappy with being male - I can't even imagine it - I would not hesitate to do my best to change the situation. As a male, problem solving is in my genes, and if my sex was a serious problem for me I would do my best to change it.
You only get one life. It seems only logical, and very male, to live that life the way it gives you the most satisfaction. If wearing a dress and Spanx does if for you, who am I to disagree?
But, should I become unhappy with being male - I can't even imagine it - I would not hesitate to do my best to change the situation. As a male, problem solving is in my genes, and if my sex was a serious problem for me I would do my best to change it.
You only get one life. It seems only logical, and very male, to live that life the way it gives you the most satisfaction. If wearing a dress and Spanx does if for you, who am I to disagree?
8
A very confused person, who is now getting a level of attention which far out weighs its worthiness to society.
8
A very satisfying aspect of this story for me is that I previously had no idea that Bruce Jenner had anything to do with the Kardashian family and, other than the recent and well-publicized photo of Kim Kardashian sticking out her butt, I'm unaware of anything that's going on with them. Thus I find, as I have with other prominent celebrities and broadcasters whose stuff I don't like, that it IS possible to "just not watch" (or listen).
6
Yes, same here! All I know of the Kardashians is what I see in the tabloid headlines as I wait in line at the grocery store. I had no idea that Bruce Jenner, who I remember as an athlete, had anything to do with them.
1
I do find it surprising. However, it's no one else's business since Bruce Jenner is an adult and certainly should know his own mind. I wish him luck transitioning to a female body.
15
Wearing a dress and make up does not change your underlying XY male chromosomes, not does surgery, you ate still a male at the end of the day.
10
Maybe Mr Jenner has decided that he no longer wants to part of the "knuckle-dragger" class---at the "end of the day" , that is. It is what is in the BRAIN that matters--not what's between your legs.
3
The idea that there is some biologically, hormonally, or internally driven thing called "gender identity" is as retrograde as stereotypes that "girls like pink" and "boys like blue". What is actually being touted here is rigid adherence to sex stereotypes accomplished through questionable medical intervention.
What is more likely in a situation such as this is the presentation of autogynephilia.
In the suddenly highly publicized cases of "trans kids", what is more likely is that parents are enforcing rigid sex stereotypes on children who, without medical intervention, would largely grow up to be healthy non-trans adults.
It seems to me that, with the rise of "gender identity" ideology, anybody who does not conform to sex stereotypes, now ambiguously labeled "gender non-conforming", is being pushed into a trans "identity" so that they can be medicalized into an approximation of the sex that fits the stereotype they're thought to conform with. That is, feminine males are being medically classed and created as trans women and masculine females are being medically classed and created as trans men.
Parents of children who don't conform to sex stereotypes are being asked whether they'd rather have a lesbian or a son, a homosexual or a daughter. And then offered medical intervention to make their choice real.
And at the other men, adult men with autogynephilia are being offered an "identity" as a "woman" so that they may live out their condition 24-7.
What is more likely in a situation such as this is the presentation of autogynephilia.
In the suddenly highly publicized cases of "trans kids", what is more likely is that parents are enforcing rigid sex stereotypes on children who, without medical intervention, would largely grow up to be healthy non-trans adults.
It seems to me that, with the rise of "gender identity" ideology, anybody who does not conform to sex stereotypes, now ambiguously labeled "gender non-conforming", is being pushed into a trans "identity" so that they can be medicalized into an approximation of the sex that fits the stereotype they're thought to conform with. That is, feminine males are being medically classed and created as trans women and masculine females are being medically classed and created as trans men.
Parents of children who don't conform to sex stereotypes are being asked whether they'd rather have a lesbian or a son, a homosexual or a daughter. And then offered medical intervention to make their choice real.
And at the other men, adult men with autogynephilia are being offered an "identity" as a "woman" so that they may live out their condition 24-7.
18
Wrong. Where are your reams of data to disprove the years of science that exists regarding transgenders? There is not a rise in transgender individuals. There is just less suffering in silence. No one is being pushed into gender reassignment surgery. Only someone in a desperate situation would undergo that surgery. Your ignorance on the subject only causes more suffering for people who never asked to be put in this situation.
3
"accomplished through questionable medical intervention. "
and your credentials are?
and your credentials are?
2
Actually, there is virtually no support for this disease model of gender variance. It's limited to a single online support group with fewer than 40 contributors out of a worldwide population of transwomen numbering in the millions.
Mr. Jenner's sexual desires are really no one's business.
5
And that is why his photo and this lengthy article have no place in the NYT.......
3
And, I wish he would keep those desires private and get off my nieces' television set.
5
Then he should not exhibit them on television should he?
2
I am really troubled by the idea of surgically altering the exterior signs of sexual identity. I do not define myself by my gender. Perhaps that is because there is no mismatch. Or perhaps people who wish to reassign their sexuality are struggling with some profound issue.
Why does a man need all the female hormones and invasive surgery to feel ok? It mostly alters how other people perceive them. Why is that so important? Are transgenders actually gay men and women who don't accept their sexual orientation? Are they so desperate to fit in as heterosexuals and please everyone that they'll change their perceived sex?
Or is this some kind of terrible self abuse -- an extreme form of cutting? Or a kind of suicide committed against their former self, creating a new alter ego through 21st century technology?
I would like to live in a world where people were able to express their sexual identity and be accepted completely without resorting to surgery and hormones. Dress like a woman if you wish, wear makeup if it makes you feel good, love someone from the same sex and marry them. Just don't butcher your body. Male or female or anywhere in between, my feeling in that we are all perfect the way we are born.
Why does a man need all the female hormones and invasive surgery to feel ok? It mostly alters how other people perceive them. Why is that so important? Are transgenders actually gay men and women who don't accept their sexual orientation? Are they so desperate to fit in as heterosexuals and please everyone that they'll change their perceived sex?
Or is this some kind of terrible self abuse -- an extreme form of cutting? Or a kind of suicide committed against their former self, creating a new alter ego through 21st century technology?
I would like to live in a world where people were able to express their sexual identity and be accepted completely without resorting to surgery and hormones. Dress like a woman if you wish, wear makeup if it makes you feel good, love someone from the same sex and marry them. Just don't butcher your body. Male or female or anywhere in between, my feeling in that we are all perfect the way we are born.
17
There are many informative books on the topic that might answer your questions. Try reading some.
"Though he has not confirmed it" END of non-story.
10
Can we be honest about this process. Men cannot become women and women cannot become men. Obviously, it is possible to undergo surgery and take chemicals to change one's appearance, but chromosomes and genes determine biological gender.
The real issue for me is trying to understand the psychopathology that compels some people to believe that changing their gender appearance will improve their lives. As for Jenner and the rest of the Kardashian freak show, it would appear that they will stop at nothing to maintain their status as cover stories on vacuous tabloid media outlets.
The real issue for me is trying to understand the psychopathology that compels some people to believe that changing their gender appearance will improve their lives. As for Jenner and the rest of the Kardashian freak show, it would appear that they will stop at nothing to maintain their status as cover stories on vacuous tabloid media outlets.
22
I find all of this gender confusion...well, confusing. Being gay was hard enough for me, so I'm coming from that viewpoint. I guess my question is, does Bruce want to be a woman so he can be with another woman, which will make him a lesbian? Or does he want to be with men, which would make him...a straight woman? Or maybe sex doesn't enter into the equation at all, and he just wants to feel like a woman, dress up like one, have the accoutrements of femininity. And lately, I've been reading about people who are gender neutral and want to be labeled as "they" instead of "he" or "she". Ah, for the simpler times.
Whatever it is, good luck to Bruce. May he have happiness. May all beings have happiness.
Whatever it is, good luck to Bruce. May he have happiness. May all beings have happiness.
16
Thank you for ending with compassion, but conflating gender identity with sexuality is a common mistake. They are related but very different. There have indeed been TG women who relate as lesbians, and TG men who relate as gay, and every other variation. My point is that identity is distinct from orientation.
I can sort of understand someone concluding early on that their psychological gender and physical gender are in conflict early in life, but in one's fifties, after three marriages, as one is being eclipsed by one's children and stepchildren? Count me among the skeptics.
13
Odds are that you're someone who often says, "Count me among the skeptics." I'll bet you're friends know you for that phrase. Surely you needn't change anything so foundational about yourself in your fifties. You'll be a skeptic about most everything which isn't mainstream until the bitter end. Good for you.
2
Denial and social stigma, plain and simple.
The one consistent theme in this bizarre story is that Jenner continues to seek the spotlight and to make money off of it. On the other hand, he's such a public person, how could he avoid it? But I have to laugh when I read comments here about there having been rumors years ago of Jenner's being gay. He's not gay. This is a very different thing, and I don't doubt it's genuine. The best transition he could make, however, would be to a lower-profile, more tranquil and dignified private life. This threatens to become an even more squalid circus than it has already been.
13
I wonder if this a recent decision to capture the limelight, or has Jenner's desire to become a woman been tugged him at him since childhood, and success in sports was simply a way for him to prove to himself that he was indeed man?
3
This is why he'll make millions off the whole thing: because you're just dying to know!
4
@Jim. No, I am not dying to know. As a life long track and field fan, who followed BJ's career in the 1970s, I find it interesting that he has decided to be come a woman. I have never had such a desire to do such a thing, and wonder what is the principle motivating factor in his decision, especially at this point in his life. If it is to make millions of dollars, then I can imagine there are better ways he could do it, but BJ has played out all his options. After he won the gold medal in the decathlon in 1976, a Soviet competitor asked him, "Bruce, does this mean you will become a millionaire?" Little did the world know that gender reassignment would be come part of the plan, much less the mindlessness of "keeping up with the Kardashians." As for myself, there's not enough money in the world for me to become a woman (nor to keep up with the Kardashians). Thank you.
3
Why the misguided obsession with gender? You cannot change your chromosomal makeup; therefore,it is a scientific fact that you cannot actually change your gender, at least not yet. If you are male, and prefer traditionally female activities, and love to wear makeup and dress in a way that is perceived to be feminine, what you need to change is the mindset that says only biological females are allowed these things. The culture needs to change to accept that both genders are allowed to experience their lives as they choose, in the bodies they occupy. Instead, practitioners who profit from experimenting on people as if they are lab rats are competing to come up with the ultimate procedure to exhibit their brilliance. There's a lot of profit to be had from the Bruce Jenners, and getting the insurance companies to which we all pay our premiums behind this will be a gold mine, almost as good as convincing normal women they need giant water balloons on their chests.
15
I agree, why then preoccupation with gender? It is only one facet of our lives. But on that same note, why do you insist on dictating what you think people should be able to do with their body? Gender dysphoria doesn't manifest for many as just the inability to perform some social functions (e.g. Wear makeup). For many, dysphoria extends to their own body, and I highly doubt it is because of a culturally imposed definition of binary gender roles.
As for your notion that we can not change someone's chromosomal makeup, we regularly treat people for diseases that have strong genetic basises, even if there are no definitive cures: Alzheimer's, Hutchinson's Disease, etc. Would we tell people it is in your DNA therefore we can't treat you to be like you want to be? I think not. Your argument is derived from the Naturalistic Fallacy. Why should we restrict people to looking like something they don't feel they are (their genetic gender)? Interestingly also, there are many people identified female at birth that walk our streets as females... With XY chromosomes, look up Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.
As for your notion that we can not change someone's chromosomal makeup, we regularly treat people for diseases that have strong genetic basises, even if there are no definitive cures: Alzheimer's, Hutchinson's Disease, etc. Would we tell people it is in your DNA therefore we can't treat you to be like you want to be? I think not. Your argument is derived from the Naturalistic Fallacy. Why should we restrict people to looking like something they don't feel they are (their genetic gender)? Interestingly also, there are many people identified female at birth that walk our streets as females... With XY chromosomes, look up Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.
1
Transgender is not transsexual. It is not a choice, but rather a developmental issue that occurs during birth and has been studied by scientists for years.
Transgender is when the fetal brain becomes feminized or masculinized to become the opposite gender of the fetus's sex organs. This was taught in Biology 101 decades ago and it's astounding how many commenters are oblivious to this.
It shouldn't be that hard, especially for the male commenters who bash transgenders, to put themselves in the shoes of a child dealing with this neurological issue. Imagine when you were a boy, having the same male brain you did (which liked girls, sports, hanging with your buds) but instead possessing a girl's body. Imagine yourself as a man now (with your same male brain) but having a woman's body instead. Would you NOW decide to identify as a woman and pretend to be someone different to appease others? It should be obvious why transgenders will go through the dangers of surgical reassignment.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TScauses.html
Transgender is when the fetal brain becomes feminized or masculinized to become the opposite gender of the fetus's sex organs. This was taught in Biology 101 decades ago and it's astounding how many commenters are oblivious to this.
It shouldn't be that hard, especially for the male commenters who bash transgenders, to put themselves in the shoes of a child dealing with this neurological issue. Imagine when you were a boy, having the same male brain you did (which liked girls, sports, hanging with your buds) but instead possessing a girl's body. Imagine yourself as a man now (with your same male brain) but having a woman's body instead. Would you NOW decide to identify as a woman and pretend to be someone different to appease others? It should be obvious why transgenders will go through the dangers of surgical reassignment.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TScauses.html
13
A man who is interested in traditionally feminine things is simply a man interested in traditionally feminine things. The problem is that society is too conservative to accept that men and women don't always adhere to gender stereotypes so they conclude that such individuals must undergo a "transition." The problem is not biological. There is nothing "wrong" with a man not being into sports or liking dresses. He isn't in the wrong body. The problem is social rigidity.
5
Stella -- So is Bruce Jenner transgender or transsexual. Since he's 60 and has been obsessed with plastic surgery for a long time -- I'm think it's the later.
Oh my God, how sexist of you!
Good for her. I just don't know how much she's advancing the cause of acceptance of transgendering by being affiliated with the Kardashian circus. It's not as if these people conduct themselves with a high level of dignity.
4
It's more respectful to refer to transgender people by their chosen name. The list of celebrity transgender people should have put their birth names in parentheses, if they need to be mentioned at all, rather than their current names.
6
I was thinking the same thing. Serious flaw in an otherwise good article
I worry that Mr. Jenner's story will not be a "phenomenal opportunity," creating positive conversations for other young people. I wish him well, but he's part of a cartoon family -- and for kids struggling for acceptance in small towns across America, having a prominent "example" from such a ridiculous, materialistic, dysfunctional family is not a welcome prospect. The best thing that could happen for all of us is for this entire clan to drop out of sight.
9
I question whether Mr.Jenner's transition is truly "courageous". After all, he's already a celebrity with little to lose. His fortune is made. His name is well-known. He's insulated from the real world and is not likely to suffer because of his decision. He decided long ago to live his life in public and gave up the expectation of privacy that most of us fight to preserve.
Judging from most of the comments here, Mr. Jenner will be celebrated for his decision. Meanwhile, there are those who risk everything by deciding to transition as Mr. Jenner has--sacrificing careers, family, financial security and personal safety because of it. They are the truly courageous.
Judging from most of the comments here, Mr. Jenner will be celebrated for his decision. Meanwhile, there are those who risk everything by deciding to transition as Mr. Jenner has--sacrificing careers, family, financial security and personal safety because of it. They are the truly courageous.
16
And by sharing his experience with all of us who care to read about it, he is helping those in the same situation who lack his material well-being by dragging a few more people kicking and screaming into knowing more about the phenomenon, and thus being less fearful and angry about it.
If true, I wish her the best in her transition, and greatly admire the courage it takes to do so publicly. It will help countless others struggling with gender dysphoria as well. Thank you.
3
We are physically born male or female, and of course as doctors know some are born inbetween.
But gender is a sociological term. We are not born with manicured nails, long hair, and makeup. We as a society define those things as "feminine" or "female." And truthfully, there is a huge spectrum of gender. What's on the cover of Cosmo hardly represents most women. I don't think Bruce Jenner is undergoing a gender change. I think he's finally feels comfortable enough to be honest about which gender he identifies with. Unfortunately, there's no way he could have achieved all the success he has had, had he come out in the beginning. Hopefully his show will change that.
But gender is a sociological term. We are not born with manicured nails, long hair, and makeup. We as a society define those things as "feminine" or "female." And truthfully, there is a huge spectrum of gender. What's on the cover of Cosmo hardly represents most women. I don't think Bruce Jenner is undergoing a gender change. I think he's finally feels comfortable enough to be honest about which gender he identifies with. Unfortunately, there's no way he could have achieved all the success he has had, had he come out in the beginning. Hopefully his show will change that.
4
Whatever Bruce Jenner wants for his future, let's wish him luck, but before we celebrate how groundbreaking this would be, we should recall Renee Richards, who transgendered in 1975 while still an active professional tennis player. She had to go to court in order to be allowed to play as a woman in the US open.
She had a double challenge...transgendering, and then winning the battle to be recognized as a woman athlete. So, the second challenge is one Bruce Jenner does not need to go through, since his days as an athlete are over. From all indications, he is now a professional actor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards
She had a double challenge...transgendering, and then winning the battle to be recognized as a woman athlete. So, the second challenge is one Bruce Jenner does not need to go through, since his days as an athlete are over. From all indications, he is now a professional actor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards
4
OK for Bruce Jenner to become a woman..... Now for his daughters and step daughters to become real women as well....
20
Celebrity addiction it runs both ways, those of us who are addicted to watching celebrities and their lives and celebrities who must be seen. I wish B. Jenner happiness and health but I am not particularly interesting in hearing every detail of his life or anyone else's.
6
Like a lot of people, maybe most people, I have a visceral negative reaction to it. But, that is my problem. Good luck to him. I hope it makes him happier.
5
Irony:
Bruce is the only one of that bunch who is actually famous for a good reason: being a world-class athlete.
Bruce is the only one of that bunch who is actually famous for a good reason: being a world-class athlete.
11
A good prop for discussing transgender issues and tolerance for individuality in general, at a level appealing to the dumb. This is when I almost believe there is small-scale magic in the big chaotic world.
3
I'd just like to insert into this discussion the notion that a person could decide to change his or her sex for good reasons, or bad, or a mixture of both, like pretty much all decisions human beings make.
It's possible to have no problem with the notion of sex change, and to welcome the acceptance of the transgender option as liberating for some people, yet also suspect a particular individual of being at least partially motivated by attention seeking, or personal psychopathology.
Along with the numerous individuals who have been freed from a lifetime of torment by the possibility of becoming the other sex, it's pretty obvious that there is a fad going on here. I think there will be a subgroup of people who have their sex reassigned who end up regretting it later, and realizing it was a mistake of youthful overenthusiasm or idealism or just confusion.
(Obviously with Jenner, it is not "youthful" enthusiasm, but just saying.)
It seems safe to assume there are people who blame all their problems on being the wrong sex when actually something else entirely may be going on. And still others who simply seek fame, or can't live outside the spotlight.
I really just don't think one is "born" one way or the other definitively. I mean, this is essentially what the whole transgender phenomenon is teaching us, yes? So it seems to me the confusion could easily work both ways.
It's possible to have no problem with the notion of sex change, and to welcome the acceptance of the transgender option as liberating for some people, yet also suspect a particular individual of being at least partially motivated by attention seeking, or personal psychopathology.
Along with the numerous individuals who have been freed from a lifetime of torment by the possibility of becoming the other sex, it's pretty obvious that there is a fad going on here. I think there will be a subgroup of people who have their sex reassigned who end up regretting it later, and realizing it was a mistake of youthful overenthusiasm or idealism or just confusion.
(Obviously with Jenner, it is not "youthful" enthusiasm, but just saying.)
It seems safe to assume there are people who blame all their problems on being the wrong sex when actually something else entirely may be going on. And still others who simply seek fame, or can't live outside the spotlight.
I really just don't think one is "born" one way or the other definitively. I mean, this is essentially what the whole transgender phenomenon is teaching us, yes? So it seems to me the confusion could easily work both ways.
10
While there are compassionate elements here, I can't agree that it's a "fad". It's simply much too primal and fraught with social stigma to be a passing-fancy casual choice like fashion or hairstyles.
What you're mistaking for fad is simply more media attention.
What you're mistaking for fad is simply more media attention.
what's the next step in futility after first-first-first world problems ?
2
Maybe he's just on his way to cross dressing? Anyhow who's to say what the limits are or even if there are limits? The Islamic fundamentalists? In a scientific world, as bereft of values as a vacuum of particles, how can any limitation be placed on infinite possibility? We no longer have horses in the street to scare so even that sensible limitation is dead and gone.
Hmmm, maybe too many steroids? Sorry folks, Mr/Ms Jenner belongs in a freak show. I mean, c'mon, reality tv, tabloids, the entire thing is sad and he/she obviously needs mental help. All these blogs of support and not really that, this is a troubled, troubled person that we are "supporting", not helping.
6
'Visible to all'? Ha ha, until he becomes a woman! At his age, he'll become invisible like the rest of us, unless he continues in his career as a professional celebrity and gussies up for the camera like a sleazy bombshell - not that he knows any of those. He'll be blond with nice tight skin, spooky alert eyes, lots of makeup, big boobs that will never sag, gorgeous dresses, and carrying a big handbag for all the makeup. How many older women look like that anyway?
The problem with our culture is that there's a stereotypical image of males and females promoted by Hollywood and Madison Avenue, and everyone in between, for profit. Their constant bombardment of advertising succeeds in getting society to buy in, then they pressure others to conform in order to fit in. Voila! Phony inside and out.
People don't need to liberate themselves from the 'wrong' body, they just need to liberate themselves from manufactured image$. Why can't Bruce Jenner just be a pretty guy? Because there's no money to be made if people just accept who they are as is.
The saddest part is that adults don't tell kids just how shallow and materialistic our society is because they don't want them to give up on living. But when they do find out, they too often consider suicide. So not only are the Capitalists eating our children for profit, we're offering them up on the sacrificial table, including the War Machine.
The answer is not to change genders. It's to change our society.
The problem with our culture is that there's a stereotypical image of males and females promoted by Hollywood and Madison Avenue, and everyone in between, for profit. Their constant bombardment of advertising succeeds in getting society to buy in, then they pressure others to conform in order to fit in. Voila! Phony inside and out.
People don't need to liberate themselves from the 'wrong' body, they just need to liberate themselves from manufactured image$. Why can't Bruce Jenner just be a pretty guy? Because there's no money to be made if people just accept who they are as is.
The saddest part is that adults don't tell kids just how shallow and materialistic our society is because they don't want them to give up on living. But when they do find out, they too often consider suicide. So not only are the Capitalists eating our children for profit, we're offering them up on the sacrificial table, including the War Machine.
The answer is not to change genders. It's to change our society.
10
"To boldly go where no man has gone before!" Well, no Olympic athletes, I should say. Staying marketable, all the while,
3
Still waiting for someone to explain why this is my business - or theirs.
5
I wish it was my business because it looks like it's going to be quite profitable.
1
If it is not your business, why did you comment? Ignore it.
1
It's about time. This poor guy has probably been grinding over his sexuality since he won the decathlon. There were rumors back then. At that time you could not market a gay athlete, so he had to act straight. When the he appeared with the Kardashians, he was a target of comics who questioned his sexuality. Guys tend to be very protective with their "equipment." Jenner is making the ultimate commitment to what he feels.
3
If Bruce Jenner feels in his heart that he is a woman, then I can only wish him the best in his transition. That said, the *biggest* transition I would like to see him undertake would be to remove himself from the inane, selfish, self-centred, vapid cultural undertow that is the Kardashians.
77
It's tough to be a woman. You're a second class citizen. Any man who is giving up that privilege to follow his heart is courageous. Welcome to the club, Ms. Jenner. Hope to sit next to you at the nail salon sometime soon!
15
I understand the very human need for entertainment, distraction, and a window into lives that seem more exciting than our own.
That said...our oceans are full of trash and plastic, they're overfished and now have dead zones. The rainforests are disappearing. The elephants, tigers, lions, rhinos, apes, monarch butterflies, and a whole list of other creatures who've lived on this planet as long as we have are going extinct. We're running out of fresh water and the entire American West could be in a sustainability crisis in less than 10 years. (And I won't even mention global warming...)
But, what do we get from the media? ISIS and the Kardashians. And that's about it. They treat the environmental crisis that will soon threaten the survival of our civilization as a sidebar that deserves 30 seconds or so on the TV for every 30 minutes they give the human sideshow. What can we even say to such idiocy? That we deserve our fate?
We don't.
That said...our oceans are full of trash and plastic, they're overfished and now have dead zones. The rainforests are disappearing. The elephants, tigers, lions, rhinos, apes, monarch butterflies, and a whole list of other creatures who've lived on this planet as long as we have are going extinct. We're running out of fresh water and the entire American West could be in a sustainability crisis in less than 10 years. (And I won't even mention global warming...)
But, what do we get from the media? ISIS and the Kardashians. And that's about it. They treat the environmental crisis that will soon threaten the survival of our civilization as a sidebar that deserves 30 seconds or so on the TV for every 30 minutes they give the human sideshow. What can we even say to such idiocy? That we deserve our fate?
We don't.
33
Actually, maybe we do.
Yes, transgender people are taking to social media to discuss their transformations. However, I disagree that men who change their bodies to look like women Are Women. In my experience, they don't drop attitudes of male privilege, and their anger is still the fight-t-the-death male variety. In any case, I don't believe anyone with a penis has a right to use the women's restroom, which seems to be the jist of many campaigns.
9
Look what living with the Kardashians can do to a man.
27
Is this where science has brought us? I know we're supposed to be happy for the person, but frankly it's like something out of a futuristic novel. I'm glad my grandparents aren't here to see this one.
8
Who cares? What someone does with their personal life should not be subject to national scrutiny, gossip, etc.
9
Normally, it's highly inappropriate to speculate about a possibly transgender person.
But in a family that's made an industry out of publicity seeking, this is fair game. There is no privacy. Doubtless, they wouldn't have it any other way.
But in a family that's made an industry out of publicity seeking, this is fair game. There is no privacy. Doubtless, they wouldn't have it any other way.
16
Almost all athletes enjoy the spotlight. Almost all do their best to make a buck. I wish all of them the best of luck. But I cannot recall any athlete who ever worked harder to extend their 15 minutes of fame and earn a living from it. (Mark Spitz merely became a dentist). From movies to television, personal appearance, books, etc. he has done all he can to remain in the public eye. Now this. Although I am sure he is sincere (no one is that desperate for fame and profit) you can be sure he will make enough money from this publicity to fund his retirement.
14
At the beginning of conception nature seems to determine sex, but then, the uncertainty principle seems to take hold and there seems to be a dichotomy between the physical body and the still mysterious brain. This is a new finishing line for Jenner to cross. I wish her well.
3
aside from boob attachments and pink nails, there's a lot more to being a post-menopausal woman--and few would "choose" this!
13
However the outward appearances only proclaim the fact that for years or decades a transgendered person has been trapped in the wrong body. Internally he has been a woman for a long time. This is not a case of just cross dressing.
1
I was 11 when Bruce Jenner won the gold in Montreal - a glorious moment to watch! I remember hearing shortly after that he'd gotten plastic surgery and I found that bizarre. He was the best athlete in the world and a perfectly nice looking guy. It seemed so disconnected and it makes me think this had been brewing for a very long time. Good for him for going forward with this. He still has a lot of life to live.
4
Each of us has one life...it's no one else's business during their chance on life to criticize or determine anyone else's personal choices....when you get old enough and look at all the new humans born and being raised you realize your turn is almost over and all of the junk, religion, racisim, etc., you tried to foist off on other people really didn't matter. People can live their little lives in misery trying to follow someone else's idea of who they should be or step out and be whomever their authentic selves say they are. The bigger travesty is people introducing third party DNA into a human embryo to stave off imperfection...whatever the hell that is.
8
Good comment--but the procedure you're referring to is to try to prevent a deadly and awful genetic condition in which babies are born with malfunctioning mitochondria--the part of our cells which processes oxygen. These children live brief and terrible lives. It's only a "gene fix" and hardly the creation of a monster. The media has hyped it yet again, and people are misinformed. Frankly, we've probably done worse things to food!
7
We have a language problem here. I have no problem with people identifying themselves in any way they wish, in altering the their appearance in any fashion, in loving whomever they love, in marrying the person they want to make that commitment to. But there is no way that a man can become a woman, or a woman a man. We are born what we are, male, female, or in between. We can acquire some of the secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex through hormonal therapy, but our chromosomal make up remains forever the same.
29
You don't get it. He was born a woman trapped in a male body.
1
What you are saying is true, but to my understanding, people who transgender are motivated by the sense of identity...how they feel about themselves...not by the idea that surgery and hormones are going to make them 100% biologically male or female.
For example, a transgendered female will never give birth to a child, however young she may be. That of course is impossible (so far!). It is all about self-identity and how they live out their lives.
For example, a transgendered female will never give birth to a child, however young she may be. That of course is impossible (so far!). It is all about self-identity and how they live out their lives.
2
How do you know this? Bruce hasn't yet confirmed what he is doing, explained why or what his personal history is. For all we know, this could be yet another stunt designed to boost KUWTK ratings.
One could argue that gender is a feature of identity, not anatomy, in which case Jenner has always been "female." But, lopping off a penis and testicles and taking hormone pills will not make him a woman. He is choosing to live as a woman, he is not becoming a woman. His choice should be respected and he should be treated with dignity, but stating, at the piece here does, that a cosmetic operation actually "changes" a person's gender degrades us all with its spuriousness and superficiality. Everything, in our culture, seems be about appearances.
Moreover, in the flood of articles on transgender in the media recently, I've not seen even one that dealt with what gender actually means to transgendered people and others. People have deeply embedded beliefs that being one gender or another provides strength or safety or connection or feared aggression, etc. Yet, any exploration of these belief systems appears forbidden; I suppose the fear is appearing to pathologize transgendered people, but it leads to an emptiness in the coverage.
The reactions of others are also over-simplified in the media. Everyone is divided into camps of "supportive" and "nonsupportive." The fact that some women, men, parents, spouses actually prefer and encourage, for example, a feminized "castrated" man, just as others seek hypermasculine males and hyperfeminine females -- again, it's forbidden to mention.
Moreover, in the flood of articles on transgender in the media recently, I've not seen even one that dealt with what gender actually means to transgendered people and others. People have deeply embedded beliefs that being one gender or another provides strength or safety or connection or feared aggression, etc. Yet, any exploration of these belief systems appears forbidden; I suppose the fear is appearing to pathologize transgendered people, but it leads to an emptiness in the coverage.
The reactions of others are also over-simplified in the media. Everyone is divided into camps of "supportive" and "nonsupportive." The fact that some women, men, parents, spouses actually prefer and encourage, for example, a feminized "castrated" man, just as others seek hypermasculine males and hyperfeminine females -- again, it's forbidden to mention.
25
Yikes! "lopping off"? couldn't you have phrased it a bit more delicately? (small joke, BTW).
2
Most would say emphatically, that this is not a "choice." Like being gay is not a "lifestyle."
For heaven's sake, nobody "chooses" these massive life problems!
For heaven's sake, nobody "chooses" these massive life problems!
The Times forgot to report on the most important part: whether the ratings for the Ks TV show have improved.
8
Don't care, it does not affect my life. He can make money any way he wants.
5
Why is this news?
20
[[Anthony New York, NY 30 minutes ago
Why is this news?]]
A world famous athlete, step father to reality tv show actors, appears to be undergoing treatment to transform his appearance/gender.
You're welcome.
Why is this news?]]
A world famous athlete, step father to reality tv show actors, appears to be undergoing treatment to transform his appearance/gender.
You're welcome.
1
Not all news is bad news.
Readers beware! The level of ignorance and hatefulness in these comments is astonishing and very, very disappointing.
7
After years of watching talent-less girls make a fortune doing nothing Bruce just decided it was better to join them than fight it.
19
While I wish Bruce well, and hope that transgendered people are accepted and respected, I am SO sick of everyone in this vapid family. I have never watched their program, but they are so ubiquitous that I know their names.
Seriously, can Bruce and Brian Williams get off the front page and get us back to the serious news I pay the NYT for?
Seriously, can Bruce and Brian Williams get off the front page and get us back to the serious news I pay the NYT for?
24
By next week, on radio, some "Host" will be tying this to Obamacare, just wait.
9
I am saddened by all the negative and belittling comments posted here; a reflection of the general lack of education about this topic, which is exactly what Bruce Jenner's transition can help address. I wish tat everyone could read Andrew Solomon's chapter on transgender in "far From The Tree"
5
I am happy Bruce Jenner has discovered who he really is and impressed that he has the courage to do something about it. I welcome the future HER to the gender of women and can't wait for HER to join the fight for equal pay, for equal job opportunities, equal representation in government, for preventing exploitation of women around the world and promoting education for girls. The olympic decathlon is going to look like child's play in comparison.
9
What simple minds we have. There is now evidence all over - just do a Google search - that being Male or Female is for some just that but that for millions - and maybe more than we'll ever know- it's not so plain.
BBC Radio4 had a show a decade or more ago about the decisions made in the UK since the1950's by parents and doctors regarding sex of newborns. In cases where an infant's sexual organs were ambiguous, it was believed decisions had to be made. Sometimes they were right and sometimes not. Babies who should be girls were made boys and vice versa and when they made the wrong decision, it led to lives of misery for those infants as they grew up.
I'm not saying this happened in Bruce Jenner's case but imagine living your life as a man, looking like him and inside you know that something isn't quite right.
Nature is way more sophisticated than we are and I wouldn't be surprised if every single human alive is just a little skewed this way or that and hide, not even knowing we're hiding behind a facade of gender normality, let's call it.
Those who think the topic is frivolous must know exactly who you are. I suggest to those people that maybe, just maybe, you aren't being honest.
Society runs smoother and religion supports such, if we're all 100% male and 100% female, but it just ain't so.
BBC Radio4 had a show a decade or more ago about the decisions made in the UK since the1950's by parents and doctors regarding sex of newborns. In cases where an infant's sexual organs were ambiguous, it was believed decisions had to be made. Sometimes they were right and sometimes not. Babies who should be girls were made boys and vice versa and when they made the wrong decision, it led to lives of misery for those infants as they grew up.
I'm not saying this happened in Bruce Jenner's case but imagine living your life as a man, looking like him and inside you know that something isn't quite right.
Nature is way more sophisticated than we are and I wouldn't be surprised if every single human alive is just a little skewed this way or that and hide, not even knowing we're hiding behind a facade of gender normality, let's call it.
Those who think the topic is frivolous must know exactly who you are. I suggest to those people that maybe, just maybe, you aren't being honest.
Society runs smoother and religion supports such, if we're all 100% male and 100% female, but it just ain't so.
11
I wondered when this story would hit the NYT. At that time, I thought, the truth would be reported. Yes this is a menial subject. Not transgender issues, but the Kardashians. However, it worries me that our realities can easily be distorted on very important matters. Where are the organizations investigating with integrity. There was no truth reported here. No investigation. Maybe it does not make sense to do research for every little story in NYT. But how do we know when an issue is truly researched? Our democracy depends on weeding out truth from fiction. Where are the real news agencies of today at a time when even video can be so easily doctored? Will Americans be completely fooled and manipulated in the future? Do you realize the dangers it poses?
Regarding the issue of Jenner's possible sex change...where are the men that take responsibilities to heart - he chose to be a father...why forsake that duty now? People make sacrifices for the greater good - such as his children, in this case - AND BEING A FATHER. Men who leave their longtime marriage and children for a younger women, hurt those children because they chose to be a father in the first place - so see it through! It is all very self involved - albeit truth or fiction. The so-called "fathers" and "reporters" of our generation are so out to lunch!
Regarding the issue of Jenner's possible sex change...where are the men that take responsibilities to heart - he chose to be a father...why forsake that duty now? People make sacrifices for the greater good - such as his children, in this case - AND BEING A FATHER. Men who leave their longtime marriage and children for a younger women, hurt those children because they chose to be a father in the first place - so see it through! It is all very self involved - albeit truth or fiction. The so-called "fathers" and "reporters" of our generation are so out to lunch!
4
I hope we can all be respectful of Jenner's transition. Sometimes it takes a huge amount of courage to be true to yourself.
9
For me it's not a matter of "respect" but of understanding & I don't understand this at all. Saw two photos of the triumphant young athlete -- splendid muscular young man. How can his supposed transition an elderly woman, not at all beautiful & photographed with lipstick, be taken as an act of "courage to be true to yourself."
I'm impressed by comments that have stressed this man's abnormal passion for acknowledgement, attention, fame. Sounds plausible & if that's the case here, if somehow the "reason" for this attention-grabbing transition...
I'm impressed by comments that have stressed this man's abnormal passion for acknowledgement, attention, fame. Sounds plausible & if that's the case here, if somehow the "reason" for this attention-grabbing transition...
5
People like this just have a mental disorder. We need a cure, not to pretend they are the wrong sex. This is a very sick society, but then we all know that.
12
Bruce Jenner can turn himself into a flying boar, for all I care.
4
Bruce, to my admiration, made a break from the Kardashians reality show; and once he left, he's started the most revolutionary reality show of our society, and it hasn't yet reached television. He is challenging my and society's most vehement prejudice; and if he makes money off it in his own show, I will watch with interest and hope he makes a fortune. I can really only comment on the male to female change, as the female to male change usually seems much more successful.
The gay and lesbian community that I belong to has redefined itself as the LGBT community. The "T" stands for transgender. Despite the LGBT community's veneer of acceptance, surprisingly, I believe most gays, including me, have an insidious prejudice against the transgendered that we would never admit. Most gays are respectful and friendly to the transgendered, but would never include them in our personal lives. We have an innate aversion to the physical results of the change, which usually appear to create a third sex, not a transition from man to woman. Finally, despite our sexual preference, most gays revel in being men.
Bruce is so bravely coming forth and challenging those prejudices, and I think he will publicly express the emotional need he feels to make such a drastic change. I don't want to be prejudiced, and I am watching this like a hawk, hoping he will help me to truly understand and empathize.
To me, Bruce is one of the bravest persons in America.
The gay and lesbian community that I belong to has redefined itself as the LGBT community. The "T" stands for transgender. Despite the LGBT community's veneer of acceptance, surprisingly, I believe most gays, including me, have an insidious prejudice against the transgendered that we would never admit. Most gays are respectful and friendly to the transgendered, but would never include them in our personal lives. We have an innate aversion to the physical results of the change, which usually appear to create a third sex, not a transition from man to woman. Finally, despite our sexual preference, most gays revel in being men.
Bruce is so bravely coming forth and challenging those prejudices, and I think he will publicly express the emotional need he feels to make such a drastic change. I don't want to be prejudiced, and I am watching this like a hawk, hoping he will help me to truly understand and empathize.
To me, Bruce is one of the bravest persons in America.
8
I don't think that all gays would necessarily agree with you, but thanks for sharing yet another perspective.
1
Study behavior genetics.
There are many sexes. Not just xx or xy.
There's xx, xy, xxy, xxxy, xxxxxy and so on.
There are many sexes. Not just xx or xy.
There's xx, xy, xxy, xxxy, xxxxxy and so on.
5
Yes, but the other conditions you cite are so rare, it's a comical joke that you would even try to put them forth as some sort of normality.
6
No one said that, @ TM.
1
In fact, @TM
Genetic scientists describe variations of the xy to be mutations.
The fact is, that some humans are born with variations of the xy.
Gender is still a mystery.
Genetic scientists describe variations of the xy to be mutations.
The fact is, that some humans are born with variations of the xy.
Gender is still a mystery.
2
A reminder to all that during the first few weeks of fetal development, our genitals are the same, regardless of whether we will become male or female.
http://www.baby2see.com/gender/internal_genitals.html
This fact helps me empathize with those who believe they were born the "wrong gender." It may very well be largely biology. I Wish Bruce comfort and peace in his transition.
http://www.baby2see.com/gender/internal_genitals.html
This fact helps me empathize with those who believe they were born the "wrong gender." It may very well be largely biology. I Wish Bruce comfort and peace in his transition.
13
"Though he has not confirmed it, he is widely reported to be in the midst of making a transition from male to female."
This is not possible. He may be changing his body to appear like a traditional or stereotypical woman, but that will never make him a woman. He has been a benefit of male privilege for his entire life, and has not been subject to the stereotyping and discrimination that girls/women experience from birth (See the article on teachers pushing girls away from math and science in this paper: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/07/upshot/how-elementary-school-teachers-...®ion=CColumn&module=MostEmailed&version=Full&src=me&WT.nav=MostEmailed). It is invalidating to the female experience to claim that a man is a woman. This does not mean Bruce should not do whatever he wants to his body or wear whatever clothes he wants. And it does not mean he should be mocked or discriminated for his nontraditional choices. But it does mean that he is not, and never will be, a woman.
This is not possible. He may be changing his body to appear like a traditional or stereotypical woman, but that will never make him a woman. He has been a benefit of male privilege for his entire life, and has not been subject to the stereotyping and discrimination that girls/women experience from birth (See the article on teachers pushing girls away from math and science in this paper: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/07/upshot/how-elementary-school-teachers-...®ion=CColumn&module=MostEmailed&version=Full&src=me&WT.nav=MostEmailed). It is invalidating to the female experience to claim that a man is a woman. This does not mean Bruce should not do whatever he wants to his body or wear whatever clothes he wants. And it does not mean he should be mocked or discriminated for his nontraditional choices. But it does mean that he is not, and never will be, a woman.
14
Ok, I feel like this is a trick. If this makes you uncomfortable, you will be labeled a hater. But I'll go for it anyway. What I see is an extremely wealthy man who is a member of the most attention-hungry clan in America, a family that made millions off of Kim's sex tape and then some. If this is the guy that will "help" some kids, that's actually not good. There is nothing about the K-clan that is real and they are not a solid foundation from which struggling young person should launch his/her identity. If Bruce wants to change, whatever, but stop putting their pictures in front of us as the new normal. It isn't.
21
If Bruce Jenner wants to do this, it is really nobody else's business....not even the NY Times.
6
Mr. Jenner has done everything humanly possible to make this the public's business. If he desired privacy he wouldn't turn his "personal journey" into a realty show.
6
"Though he has not confirmed it, "
Until MR Jenner confirms it, HE is still MR Jenner by HIS choice!
For commenters to refer to him as a woman at this point is as unacceptable as not recognizing his gender if he completes the process!
Anyone who assumes anything other than who, what, or where HE (or anyone else) is today is a hypocrite and should be ashamed of themselves!
Until MR Jenner confirms it, HE is still MR Jenner by HIS choice!
For commenters to refer to him as a woman at this point is as unacceptable as not recognizing his gender if he completes the process!
Anyone who assumes anything other than who, what, or where HE (or anyone else) is today is a hypocrite and should be ashamed of themselves!
2
The logical conclusion to an atheistic ideology. We make ourselves, in toto.
3
Absent from this article's roster of accomplished transgender people is my community's very own Martine Rothblatt JD MBA PhD MPH who as Martin Rothblatt co-founded Sirius satellite radio in 1990 and several other early satellite communications companies. Martin transitioned to Martine in 1994. Bina Aspen, his wife at the time, remains his spouse. Together they have four children, one of whom suffers from life-threatening pulmonary hypertension. To fill the gap in treatments for it, Martine decided to do something about it. She earned a PhD in medical ethics and founded several inter-related biotechnology entities, including United Therapeutics, which is today a $1 billion+ pharmaceutical company producing various pulmonary hypertension drugs, several of which Martine helped discover. According to New York magazine (9/7/13), Martine is the highest paid female CEO in America. Her books on xenotransplantation ("Your Life or Mine", her doctoral dissertation) and transgenderism ("Apartheid of Sex") are informative and deeply challenging elaborations, even to the most urbane among us. Martine's other interests and activities are vast.
Bruce Jenner and Martine Rothblatt are examples of two great (but very different) Americans who remind us how fortunate we are to live in a time when science and society offer the opportunity to expand human experience, deepen our understanding of it, and ponder what it means to the rest of us. Both are worthy of your continued coverage.
Bruce Jenner and Martine Rothblatt are examples of two great (but very different) Americans who remind us how fortunate we are to live in a time when science and society offer the opportunity to expand human experience, deepen our understanding of it, and ponder what it means to the rest of us. Both are worthy of your continued coverage.
7
Holy Mackerel,Matthew McClain! How did I NOT know about this incredible human being? All the more poignant with our local suburban city council in Plano,TX debating whether or not to permit discrimination toward the transgender community. This is fascinating life with some transgender thrown in for good measure- and definitely, a least at this point in her life, of secondary or tertiary importance. Her story in the Washington Post is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/martine-rothblatt-she-f...
I find it mildly funny to see that people can watch the Kardassins and their, ah, crowd, and still have room to believe that there's much that's purely natural and created by God in whatever makes women really women and men really men.
6
Did he not have a clue to his "gender identity" when he decided to marry and have children? Or when he decided to allow his family life to become the center of voyeuristic media and public attention?
Or is that it, that suddenly the Kardashian "reality" show needs to boost their ratings?
Or is that it, that suddenly the Kardashian "reality" show needs to boost their ratings?
7
When is the process of transition complete?
Since being transgender to no longer implies sex reassigment surgery it seems that it is complete when he is satisfied with his appearance.
Since being transgender to no longer implies sex reassigment surgery it seems that it is complete when he is satisfied with his appearance.
2
His transition is his business and he has the right to live is life in a way that make him/her happy. He and his extended family represent everything that is wrong with our society and that comment has nothing to do with him being transgender. I admire them and their ability to profit on the voyeurism of our society. It is in fact capitalism at its finest. I suppose it has more to do with the rest of us and our need to view "train wrecks" via reality TV. The fact that reality TV is so popular and that people expend so much of their own life and energy living vicariously through these people says a lot about why we are where we are. How about expending some of that energy first improving their own lives and their children's lives and then maybe improving society.
3
Everyone deserves to be free to find happiness in their life. No one has the right to be judgmental of other people's choices. Hopefully Mr. Jenner's choice will start the conversation that leads to a more tolerant and accepting America.
1
I fundamentally believe this this is not a genetic issue but a psychological one. After appearing to lice as a man comfortably all these years, he now wants to be a woman. Why? Does he crave the attention, like the rest of his family, and will do anything to catch the public eye?
8
The use of the pronoun "she" and referring to Jenner as "Ms" are the choice of the individual involved. He's still Bruce until he lives as and announces that she is Bonnie, Brianna, or Bethany. The Diane Sawyer interview could reveal what Jenner wants. Until then, it's not demeaning to transgendered persons to refer to Bruce as "he".
1
My heart aches for Bruce Jenner. Many people suffer with the knowledge that the role they are playing in society and life isn't truly who they are; that sadly is the costume party of life. But to be playing a role literally at a flesh and bones level, must be truly exquisite pain. Bruce Jenner at the core has been and will remain a legend to me...that incredibly gifted, gorgeous person so full of joy while performing such physical feats of strength. Those images will never fade. Regardless of the unfortunate connections to a family obsessed with manufacturing self-fame, the courage is takes to bare a soul is beyond my imagining. Yes, there's lots of money on this table. None of that negates the core of this act. No amount of money can make this change less painful. I can ignore this family and its antics the live long day, and do. I can't ignore Bruce Jenner and what's happening now.
4
The more publicity on this complex subject the better. Celebrities who come out are to be congratulated, most hide for fear of losing their appeal. Takes great courage and is very helpful to those who have this kind of sexual orientation.
3
Jenner is certainly a very minor "celebrity." Most people cannot afford the luxury of sex-change surgery and all that it entails. Ultimately, I am tired of hearing about it.
10
In a bonding experience with my daughter, I watched the Kardashian show a few times. (Actually, it is a 30 minutes "show" with 20 minutes of commercials and "B Roll.")
In any event, having sampled that show, I quickly concluded that it represents a new low point of a trend I have seen in television. One in which the men on the show are emasculated and stripped of their manhood.
It started with sitcoms in the 80s and 90s. "Everyone Loves Raymond" comes to mind, about a guy who went around being afraid of his wife. It is really pathetic.
On the K show, the male characters are either gay pals of the women or the family members; son-in-law Scott (Raymond on steroids), Rob (the brother who has no control over what he puts in his mouth) and Bruce. His decision to become a woman is no surprise if you watch the show.
In any event, having sampled that show, I quickly concluded that it represents a new low point of a trend I have seen in television. One in which the men on the show are emasculated and stripped of their manhood.
It started with sitcoms in the 80s and 90s. "Everyone Loves Raymond" comes to mind, about a guy who went around being afraid of his wife. It is really pathetic.
On the K show, the male characters are either gay pals of the women or the family members; son-in-law Scott (Raymond on steroids), Rob (the brother who has no control over what he puts in his mouth) and Bruce. His decision to become a woman is no surprise if you watch the show.
5
The Kardashian phenomenon, along with the ISIS beheadings, has driven me to consider a trans-species makeover. Hard to find, however, any other species on earth that would welcome a human into its midst.
26
Talk about revenge being the best revenge. Bruce gets to drink the milkshake of all the K-girls by being the biggest, most famous woman of all. That olympian competitiveness instinct got triggered and he gets to take home all the prizes with nary a K in his name. You go girl!
22
I applaud and commend the personal choices of Bruce Jenner. With only a solitary life, short at that, we have to make the most of what is available to us to fulfil our own dreams. If this is Bruce's dream, and it harms no one else, which it does not, then Rock On Bruce. Thank you for the transparency of personal process, for pointing out the folly of personal prejudice and self-righteousness, which always stands in the way of personal freedoms, everywhere, and for sharing.
4
Mr. Jenner owes us nothing. I respect his courage and wish him all the best.
9
This is a true "only in America" story. If none of it had ever happened, I think Kurt Vonnegut might have made it up.
9
Or Virginia Woolf. Think Orlando.
2
I think it's great that an established celebrity of decades, especially one who has kept her/his name on the tips of many pop-culture enthusiasts tongues since his/her rise to fame, is going through such a transition at a pivotal era in regards to the Civil Rights of those in society who challenge, defy, and disregard sexual and/or gender standards and socially accepted generalizations concerning the core freedom of individual sexuality and gender relation, which has been going on for quite some time now, even longer than most people, both the over-educated academic minority and under-educated majority, think.
Even the Founding Fathers and Noble Colonists chose to adorn themselves with the High Fashion of Britain, adopting what are now considered "Feminine" traits such as dress, personal up-keep, jewelry, etc. Unfortunately, the 18th Century masculine appeal of "Feminine Machismo" slowly dissipated after the defeat of Britain, rendering the fashion a foreign British remnant. But Feminine Machismo existed socially, within the High Cultures of the times, up until approxomitly FDR's election, around the time of LaGuardias crackdown on Burlesque, Drag, Homosexual Clubs, Labor Unions and Socialists; all which he believed to be exacerbated by Jazz. After WW-1-2, the newly created Military Culture became the new masculine norm, ultimately adopting everything anti-female. I think the acceptance of this situation shows that we are returning to our core values; individual freedom
Even the Founding Fathers and Noble Colonists chose to adorn themselves with the High Fashion of Britain, adopting what are now considered "Feminine" traits such as dress, personal up-keep, jewelry, etc. Unfortunately, the 18th Century masculine appeal of "Feminine Machismo" slowly dissipated after the defeat of Britain, rendering the fashion a foreign British remnant. But Feminine Machismo existed socially, within the High Cultures of the times, up until approxomitly FDR's election, around the time of LaGuardias crackdown on Burlesque, Drag, Homosexual Clubs, Labor Unions and Socialists; all which he believed to be exacerbated by Jazz. After WW-1-2, the newly created Military Culture became the new masculine norm, ultimately adopting everything anti-female. I think the acceptance of this situation shows that we are returning to our core values; individual freedom
3
Let's be realistic here. You really cannot change your gender. You gender is determined by in-alterable biology. Your gender is determined by DNA, chromosomes, internal organs. You can mess with the organs and your appearance but you cannot change your DNA.
You want to run around masquerading as a person of the opposite gender, be my guest but, a little bit, you're kidding yourself. Sorry to mix anyone up with the facts.
The licenses of the medical providers who profit off these misguided "transformation" procedures should be called into question. What you really have here is a psychological issue, not a medical one.
This reminds me of that bit that Larry David did on Fridays years ago where he plays a plastic surgeon who agrees to indulge a patient in his whim to transform himself into a look-alike of Howdy Doody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvH0KQuuFYw
In the bit it was funny. In real life for profit it is almost criminal,
You want to run around masquerading as a person of the opposite gender, be my guest but, a little bit, you're kidding yourself. Sorry to mix anyone up with the facts.
The licenses of the medical providers who profit off these misguided "transformation" procedures should be called into question. What you really have here is a psychological issue, not a medical one.
This reminds me of that bit that Larry David did on Fridays years ago where he plays a plastic surgeon who agrees to indulge a patient in his whim to transform himself into a look-alike of Howdy Doody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvH0KQuuFYw
In the bit it was funny. In real life for profit it is almost criminal,
19
Ignorance on your part. Gender is not biological; sex is. Gender is a social construct.
Your dismissal of the phenomenon as a "psychological issue" tells me that you're one who has made decisions about this topic by consulting only your own life experience and prejudices, rather than educating yourself about it. The history of transgender is that psychological treatments (e.g., viewing it as a delusion or neurosis and applying a variety of techniques to "cure" the problem) were remarkably unsuccessful, and compassionate providers turned to the alternative of validating the phenomenon and treating it pragmatically. In one classic formulation, if we can't change the mind, why not change the body? That's where medicine came in, not to exploit but to heal, and none of the providers have gotten rich from it.
I don't understand your need to ridicule it by comparing it to a comedy sketch, and I don't understand having such strong opinions when you don't know what you're writing about.
Your dismissal of the phenomenon as a "psychological issue" tells me that you're one who has made decisions about this topic by consulting only your own life experience and prejudices, rather than educating yourself about it. The history of transgender is that psychological treatments (e.g., viewing it as a delusion or neurosis and applying a variety of techniques to "cure" the problem) were remarkably unsuccessful, and compassionate providers turned to the alternative of validating the phenomenon and treating it pragmatically. In one classic formulation, if we can't change the mind, why not change the body? That's where medicine came in, not to exploit but to heal, and none of the providers have gotten rich from it.
I don't understand your need to ridicule it by comparing it to a comedy sketch, and I don't understand having such strong opinions when you don't know what you're writing about.
1
DMC, the guy wants to run around masquerading as a honey, enjoy. But the reality for this "reality" TV show character, which is as far from reality as it gets, is that he's still a guy, even if he goes so far as to get himself mutilated.
1
Wow, what a bunch of ignorant and scared responses.
I applaud anyone who can stand up and be themselves no matter what the age, odds, or sacrifices.
The rest of you should crawl back under your rocks.
I applaud anyone who can stand up and be themselves no matter what the age, odds, or sacrifices.
The rest of you should crawl back under your rocks.
9
Why is this news. It's Jenner's business. Not ours.
1
Oh gawd, please make all attention seekers go away.....please, please
14
Careful, you'll be accused of not having enough empathy. I mean you never know, you might someday be in the position Jenner is in today.
He won a gold medal.
So did a lot of other great athletes.
But they don't saturate u
s with their bimbo attention seeking nonsense.
So did a lot of other great athletes.
But they don't saturate u
s with their bimbo attention seeking nonsense.
21
It is not nonsense, and no one would do this just for attention. No one.
Olympian medalist Dwight Stones said it best, that Bruce Jenner's owning of identity may very well help others, especially young people who struggle with meeting expectations of those close, and of society as a whole. When I was a kid, Gold Medalist Bruce Jenner was my hero, because I was a runner and dreamt with the unfettered might of a child. And today, Bruce Jenner is a hero yet again, only in ways even more profound and courageous. I'm not a viewer of television so I am relatively unaware of the Kardashian show, and will remain fairly unaware of future shows involving Jenner's authentic identity; but I am cheering for the champion again, just as I did when Red White and Blue was first at the finish line, and now pushing the frontiers of positive change in a world trapped by its own limited expectations.
105
With all the important issues that face the American electorate, this is what people consider as important in their lives. And we wonder how we end up with the type of Congress that is in constant turmoil.
36
Computers are binary. Life is not. Nothing about humans is absolutely binary. Why would people expect gender to be different from everything else about us. It's time we accept and marvel at the wonder of it all.
104
When sexism is gone, we can pretend there is no difference between men and women. Until then, women have the right to be the only ones to identify themselves as such.
4
I marvel at the plasticity of human nature. I do not marvel at the diversion from biology because we do not understand the consequences. Humans, unlike other species, can think and act "out of the box" and that gift brings with it benefits as wells as risks. It is premature to characterize Jenner's story as one of all benefits (to Jenner) and no adverse consequences (to society).
1
Why is the NYTimes speculating about Bruce Jenner's sexuality?
32
Because people will read. At least it's a change of pace from the NYT's everything's wrong with America news.
I believe you mean gender, not the sexuality. The confusion between the two is precisely why the NYT should be talking about it.
1
Despite the tsunami of pressure to conform to politically correct relativism and condone any behavior that would have gotten a person killed in virtually every culture 100 years ago, I think it's bizarre for a man to cut off his penis.
16
Why is this story on the front page of the Times, displacing real news? This is a story I'd expect to find on a tabloid or CNN, not a real newspaper like the Times. Jenner was a public figure 40 years ago, but no longer. What he does with his life is his business, not mine or that of other Times readers and I couldn't care less.
I'm extremely disappointed in the Times.
I'm extremely disappointed in the Times.
93
Maybe it's front page news because when someone prominent transitions, it constitutes real news. Why does all front page news have to either be about Washington or war? Is that what constitutes what you consider "real news?" I don't.
3
This is very much a current human rights issue involving many victims discrimination as well as potential violence
2
That's the great thing about a newspaper. You can just turn (or click) to another story. No need to torment yourself with the interests of other people.
4
Why is it that when a 60 year old man decides to have extreme plastic surgery in order to look like a woman, it's called courageous, but if a 30 year old decides to have extreme plastic surgery to look like Barbie or a cat or something, she would be subject to nothing but ridicule?
33
Maybe if you think about that long enough, you'll come up with the answer. I'm rooting for you!
1
I'm not sure why we accept the fiction that a surgeon can turn a man into a woman or a woman to a man. Ones sex is embedded in the genes of every cell in the body and can't be altered by a scalpel or a hormone pill. Extreme body modification might be a better term rather than gender reassignment. The latter term seems to me more a product of medical hubris than an accurate descriptionl. Why do we treat a problem that is located between the ears by snipping between the legs?
31
Well, first of all, when one defines it as a "problem" I suspect that the book is closed on ways to understand transitioning. There is more to any of us than the biological parts with which we were born. Most people aren't willing to look beyond simple male and female parts though. It rattles their construct too much of what it means to be a man or a woman.
Your dismissal is a common one, and it betrays an utter misunderstanding of the issue. Like many, you dismiss transgender as a mental illness, one that presumably might be treated psychiatrically to yield a satisfactory result short of reassignment.
In that you would be wrong. It has proven to be remarkably resistant to treatment as a treatable mental-health condition, and that is why compassionate doctors such as the late Harry Benjamin turned to reassignment. The alternative was just writing human lives off in order to preserve a rigid social worldview of binary gender.
It very likely IS in the brain, but not in the way you presume. The most persuasive theories center around prenatal hormonal anomalies that "mis-wire" neural connections that are critical to human gender identity (a innate, subjective sense of being male or female), and that variations on heterosexuality involve the same kind of mis-wiring. The complexity of the brain and the nearly infinite variety of potential anomalies explain the wide variety of manifestations. Nothing else does. Not raw biology. Not family nurture or its absence. Not childhood experiences. Nothing.
The relentlessness of evolution explains why these phenomena are rare. The evolution of modern society explains why more TGs are out and the topic is in the news more.
What is to me inexplicable is why so many people who know nothing about this have such strong (and often cruel) opinions about it.
In that you would be wrong. It has proven to be remarkably resistant to treatment as a treatable mental-health condition, and that is why compassionate doctors such as the late Harry Benjamin turned to reassignment. The alternative was just writing human lives off in order to preserve a rigid social worldview of binary gender.
It very likely IS in the brain, but not in the way you presume. The most persuasive theories center around prenatal hormonal anomalies that "mis-wire" neural connections that are critical to human gender identity (a innate, subjective sense of being male or female), and that variations on heterosexuality involve the same kind of mis-wiring. The complexity of the brain and the nearly infinite variety of potential anomalies explain the wide variety of manifestations. Nothing else does. Not raw biology. Not family nurture or its absence. Not childhood experiences. Nothing.
The relentlessness of evolution explains why these phenomena are rare. The evolution of modern society explains why more TGs are out and the topic is in the news more.
What is to me inexplicable is why so many people who know nothing about this have such strong (and often cruel) opinions about it.
2
I keep think of PT Barnum - we love a good freak show.
15
He looks old...like he needs a new twist
1
I am confused.
How can gender roles by culturally assigned AND there still be a need to change and choose your gender.
Is anyone able to tease out that logic for me?
Wouldn't a culturally learned feminisim or masculinity be something you can overcome without physical change? Didn't we hear for thirty years from the thought police that we were "teaching" our boys to be violent and our girls to be submissive?
This whole process is baffling.
God, or random cell division and DNA, did a better job with Jenner than Jenner is doing.
I am sticking with God and random cell division and Black Hole stuff. We don't seem to be capable of upping the game vis a vis nature or "intelligent design".
How can gender roles by culturally assigned AND there still be a need to change and choose your gender.
Is anyone able to tease out that logic for me?
Wouldn't a culturally learned feminisim or masculinity be something you can overcome without physical change? Didn't we hear for thirty years from the thought police that we were "teaching" our boys to be violent and our girls to be submissive?
This whole process is baffling.
God, or random cell division and DNA, did a better job with Jenner than Jenner is doing.
I am sticking with God and random cell division and Black Hole stuff. We don't seem to be capable of upping the game vis a vis nature or "intelligent design".
14
Stop watching these people everyone!
33
I can't see the significance. One man with a bad case of acquired situational narcissism, who rolls cameras while speaking intimately to his family, has made a decision that has a whole body of ideological rhetoric behind it now, but which is in many ways creepy and unhealthy. Plastic surgery for cosmetic purposes is creepy: mutilation. A lifetime hormone regimen is creepy. If someone wants to adopt a cross-gender persona, fine. But men can't actually become women. They can just become surgically, hormonally tormented bodies dressed up in makeup and nail polish. This could only represent someone's truth or liberation in an Orwellian universe.
42
Americans have a right to say that this is fine. But people like Jenner do not have the "right", IMO, to say that health insurance (or anyone else) has a responsibility to pay a dime for this.
This will become a battle between the supposedly tolerant and intolerant. Until we have conquered all of the pressing issues in this world, I personally think that people like Jenner should be treated as they are: distractions.
There are still people struggling in poverty and fighting life-threatening conditions. Whether you flip your gender or your gender identity does not rise to societal importance.
Sorry.
This will become a battle between the supposedly tolerant and intolerant. Until we have conquered all of the pressing issues in this world, I personally think that people like Jenner should be treated as they are: distractions.
There are still people struggling in poverty and fighting life-threatening conditions. Whether you flip your gender or your gender identity does not rise to societal importance.
Sorry.
18
It's a medical condition called gender dysphoria, and therefore why shouldn't it be covered along with all other medical conditions?
@Chris
It gender is arbitrary, how can someone be one gender and identify with another?
It gender is arbitrary, how can someone be one gender and identify with another?
4
Medical research does not support Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS) as a valid "treatment" for people who experience gender dysphoria.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939
This is important to remember, especially given the fact that "gender" encompasses a series of socially assigned stereotypes attached to sex.
http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
It is bizarre to me that people are suggesting that a medical solution is appropriate to tackle a socially created problem.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939
This is important to remember, especially given the fact that "gender" encompasses a series of socially assigned stereotypes attached to sex.
http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
It is bizarre to me that people are suggesting that a medical solution is appropriate to tackle a socially created problem.
3
This is not a cosmetic decision, but rather treatment for Gender Dysphoria. You should only hope for the best.
7
Being a woman isn't so hard when you're already rich and famous. Of course, if he had lived his life already as an ordinary woman he would have had to deal with sex discrimination and harassment, menstrual periods, fear of rape etc. Now he gets to say "I'm a woman" and yet will have had no experience of what it is really like to be a woman in this country.
48
And your point is?
3
Thank you Anne. Well said. Just another example of white men telling women what it means to be a woman.
10
Perhaps he is changing his gender late in life because statistically women live longer.
13
Olympic gender reassignment is good for everyone as Bruce travels down this perilous path. Unfortunately many will view the process as a freak show instead of human progress. If nothing else and along with his Kardashian examples and connections reveal to the world how astonishingly talented plastic surgery can be. In his case the challenge is not only gender building techniques but also red carpet vivacious glamour. We should all send a donation to the American College of Plastic Surgeons in hopes of continuous advancements and skills.
The real question I have is this: Why is this person being referred to consistently as "Mr" throughout this piece when that's not the correct title to be using? If she thinks of herself as a woman, she should be referred to as "Ms Jenner", regardless of her anatomy. Also, what's her new name going to be?
We took this all in stride in the case of Chelsea Manning, we can do that here.
We took this all in stride in the case of Chelsea Manning, we can do that here.
9
It is appropriate to wait until he makes the announcement that he is a she. It is simply respecting the timing that Mr. Jenner is following.
1
"Though he has not confirmed it, he is widely reported to be in the midst of making a transition from male to female." If Jenner has not confirmed the transition, no one should assume anything and call him "ms."
4
The article is speculative so Mr Jenner remains Mr Jenner-
2
Anything the Kardashians are involved in is self serving and sleazy. I just hope he avoids them like the plague!
43
He is part of the traveling freak show circus of the family. Why does anyone care?
6
I've never understood why anyone would care anything about the goings on of the K family. It seems that a large segment of the American populace is content to spend large swaths of the leisure time of their lives on watching banality. Sort of like the ancient Romans and the coliseum.
Mr. Jenner has been a willing participant in the reality TV circus that is the Ks. His currency as any kind of role model was diminished to nothing long ago by taking money in exchange for participating in the dumbing down of America.
It seems to me that his transgender goings on are a result of too much money and time and not enough to do that is meaningful in his life; and the desire to make much more money by people watching him merely living his life doing meaningless things as a newly minted transgender person.
If in "reality" there has always been a woman trapped inside Mr. Jenner's body yearning for freedom and he needs to engage in the transgender process, keep it off the airwaves. He diminishes the cogency and legitimacy of the lives of those who have had no choice but to undergo the transgender process to have any chance of a meaningful and fulfilling life.
Mr. Jenner has been a willing participant in the reality TV circus that is the Ks. His currency as any kind of role model was diminished to nothing long ago by taking money in exchange for participating in the dumbing down of America.
It seems to me that his transgender goings on are a result of too much money and time and not enough to do that is meaningful in his life; and the desire to make much more money by people watching him merely living his life doing meaningless things as a newly minted transgender person.
If in "reality" there has always been a woman trapped inside Mr. Jenner's body yearning for freedom and he needs to engage in the transgender process, keep it off the airwaves. He diminishes the cogency and legitimacy of the lives of those who have had no choice but to undergo the transgender process to have any chance of a meaningful and fulfilling life.
36
One waits until he's in his 60's/70's? Seems to me it's more about publicity, money, publicity, and the three ring circus called Hollywood. I don't see bravery just dollar signs. Spare us the details!
39
"Seems to me it's more about publicity, "
Apparently, what is confirmed is:
1. Mr. Jenner has not confirmed anything.
2. There is lots of publicity.
To me the key sentence in the article is:
"Though he has not confirmed it, he is widely reported to be in the midst of making a transition from male to female."
Guess we all just have to stay tuned to find out.
Apparently, what is confirmed is:
1. Mr. Jenner has not confirmed anything.
2. There is lots of publicity.
To me the key sentence in the article is:
"Though he has not confirmed it, he is widely reported to be in the midst of making a transition from male to female."
Guess we all just have to stay tuned to find out.
It sells. What next?
12
Good for her. She has most certainly known she was a female in the wrong body all her life. While I have reservations about the "reality show" aspect, at least it raises awareness. Of course, there are some people who will never understand.
13
And obviously you don't understand either, Mike.
Bruce Jenner is not a woman today. The transition is a very long process and until MR Jenner announces it, the process could change and he might decide to remain a man who likes to wear pink nail polish. To each HIS own. Respect that.
Bruce Jenner is not a woman today. The transition is a very long process and until MR Jenner announces it, the process could change and he might decide to remain a man who likes to wear pink nail polish. To each HIS own. Respect that.
3
After being human, our gender defines us. " It's a boy!" Or a " girl!" is the first thing said about us. It is therefore not only our destiny but our inescapable history and imprint. Interestingly, those who have tried to become the other sex are always called "trans-" and, most unflatteringly, "trannies." The grammatical articles
"he" or " she" are obligingly shifted, but the inalterable physical traits remain--the bone structure that is either too big or too small--or the too large shoulders and hands or the hips that are meant for childbearing. The struggle is not only immense and unending but ultimately futile because one is always "trans-" or on the way to someone or something else but never actually getting there.
"he" or " she" are obligingly shifted, but the inalterable physical traits remain--the bone structure that is either too big or too small--or the too large shoulders and hands or the hips that are meant for childbearing. The struggle is not only immense and unending but ultimately futile because one is always "trans-" or on the way to someone or something else but never actually getting there.
17
They identify this way and seem to insist that the public does to. If a man believes he has become a woman, even without sex reassignment, then why doesn't "she" simply refer to herself as she instead of demanding that other refer to her as "trans"? Most people honestly don't care about the individual gender choices of others. Tell us how you identify yourself "male or female", and the rest is your private business.
Do you speak from experience? Or is that just your opinion on how it is?
1
Bill Maher, on last night's broadcast of Real Time, highlighted a recent photo of Kim that should put her entire family, and those who care a whit what they think or do, in proper perspective. You'll have to look elsewhere for the photo...
6
Transitioning to a different sex surgically is a strange prerogative of those with enough money to indulge their insular ideas about themselves. When all is relative, there is no line—just grosser distortions.
22
The point is not surgical transformation, it is the spiritual transition to an expression of identity which is more comfortable and releases the essence of a person.
3
"You are fearfully and wonderfully made," says God. He doesn't make mistakes. Incontrovertible.
Jenner had it all when he held to Olympic gold. In our living room, sitting around the Magnavox console tv, my friends and I, as preteens marveled at his athletic prowess cheering Jenner onto victory. Seemingly, he had it all. Now my husband and I have an almost teenage daughter and in a brief conversation that ensued following her reading a news article chronicling Jenner' s early years, she simply responded, "Sad, so sad." So much for being happy with who God made you to be and messing with His original design.
Jenner had it all when he held to Olympic gold. In our living room, sitting around the Magnavox console tv, my friends and I, as preteens marveled at his athletic prowess cheering Jenner onto victory. Seemingly, he had it all. Now my husband and I have an almost teenage daughter and in a brief conversation that ensued following her reading a news article chronicling Jenner' s early years, she simply responded, "Sad, so sad." So much for being happy with who God made you to be and messing with His original design.
17
I intend on using your last quote to parents who have children with autoimmune deficiencies and seek medical treatment.
6
Perhaps God made him a transgnder person.
13
Agree. Sad, so sad.
2
Your need to be a woman is understood and accepted.
Your need to broadcast this need is suspicious.
Please spare us the sex tape.
Your need to broadcast this need is suspicious.
Please spare us the sex tape.
184
Beyond:
Indeed. I think I see the root of all that family's narcissism.
So it goes.
John~
American Net'Zen
Indeed. I think I see the root of all that family's narcissism.
So it goes.
John~
American Net'Zen
5
I do not have the impression that Jenner is broadcasting it. People follow her around taking photos, and 'friends' of the family have spoken about it.
1
His transition is fine -- I'm totally supportive. But please -- no reality show!
116
Amazingl. After years of tabloid distractions and fluff reality television, we finally have a use for the Kardashian family!
10
It would be better for all if the Kardashian's were excluded from this story. It is about Jenner, and only to the extent that he wishes to share publicly.
When will the Kardashians all dry up and drift away? Not soon enough. Useless.
When will the Kardashians all dry up and drift away? Not soon enough. Useless.
5
Unbelievable. In the 1970's, Jenner was a swimming superstar and sex hunk. With so much going for him, why would he seek a gender change? It makes one wonder why medicine would put research and money into these bizzare fantacies of people. Such funds would be better spent researching cures for heart disease and Cancer.
17
Such startling lack of perspective! Where to begin...
-If you were a "a swimming superstar and sex hunk", but you felt that you were a woman trapped in a man's body, the whole sex hunk thing wouldn't be terribly enjoyable would it?
-Funding for this type of surgery does not compete with funding for cancer, that is an absurd and frankly disgusting conflation.
-If you were a "a swimming superstar and sex hunk", but you felt that you were a woman trapped in a man's body, the whole sex hunk thing wouldn't be terribly enjoyable would it?
-Funding for this type of surgery does not compete with funding for cancer, that is an absurd and frankly disgusting conflation.
9
Because they SELL !!!
A swimming superstar? Perhaps you're confusing him with Mark Spitz. Jenner won a gold medal in the decathlon. As the name suggests, it consists of ten events, none of which are swimming.
8
All about the cash. If the Kardasians are involved it's all about the cash.
84
" Much of the publicity swirling obsession with his physical changes, had been ugly and prurient."
But, of course gossips sells, take a look at the weekly gossip magazines which normally patronizes the Kardashians with no talent are now focused on multi-talented Bruce Jenner.
It is a courageous act on the part of Mr. Jenner to go through the transformation openly and his work is again cut out in future to set a fine example to the tras community and to the children who are growing up feeling the shame to be open of their real feelings.
But, of course gossips sells, take a look at the weekly gossip magazines which normally patronizes the Kardashians with no talent are now focused on multi-talented Bruce Jenner.
It is a courageous act on the part of Mr. Jenner to go through the transformation openly and his work is again cut out in future to set a fine example to the tras community and to the children who are growing up feeling the shame to be open of their real feelings.
11
Leave the man alone. Let him live his life in peace. He may have been fighting this his entire life. If so, his athletic career could have been a hyper masculinized effort to suppress his true needs. Or, possibly not. Only he knows and that's his business.
None of us can control our gender identity or sexual preference. Most of us are neither 100% one way or the other with regard to our traits and desires, but few of us can admit that.
If he wants to turn his transition into a public spectacle, I hope it's done tastefully and does not demean those who are trapped inside their bodies. I may be hoping for too much. He's on reality TV, not PBS. Personally, I consider his desire to live his true identity as a female normal, but any desire to make a reality TV show out of it, freakish.
None of us can control our gender identity or sexual preference. Most of us are neither 100% one way or the other with regard to our traits and desires, but few of us can admit that.
If he wants to turn his transition into a public spectacle, I hope it's done tastefully and does not demean those who are trapped inside their bodies. I may be hoping for too much. He's on reality TV, not PBS. Personally, I consider his desire to live his true identity as a female normal, but any desire to make a reality TV show out of it, freakish.
267
Leave the man alone? He has no desire to be left alone, that is clear. Let's watch as this becomes a garish freak reality show, and you know it will. I don't agree with what many have posted here. along the lines of "messing with God's original design", etc. I believe that we are who we are born, and that may not be as we appear on the outside. But your comment is funny in a sad way. One Mr. Jenner decided to join the K clan he had no desire to be left alone. I have no doubt he will milk this as a cash cow for all it's worth - and then some. I just hope his actions will help those who need it and he will approach it with some grace and dignity.
11
All of us can hide our gender identity and sexual preference.
Try doing that with your racially colored born birth identity in the United States of America.
Neither Michael Sam nor Jason Collins nor Janet Mock nor Wanda Sykes had to "come out" as Black African Americans.
Bruce Jenner is a famous rich white European American male. Jenner is no Jesse Owens, Rafer Johnson, Daley Thompson, Dan O'Brien or Carl Lewis. And the new Jenner will be a white woman. Barack Obama is all Black in America no matter his biology or culture.
I have had LGBT in my family. And they were all first born Black with an apparent identifiable physical gender with one exception. One was born intersexed hermaphrodite but raised male. They wanted to be and always felt that they were female. Which was the adult choice that they lived and died with. But they did not have the funds to fully transition.
Try doing that with your racially colored born birth identity in the United States of America.
Neither Michael Sam nor Jason Collins nor Janet Mock nor Wanda Sykes had to "come out" as Black African Americans.
Bruce Jenner is a famous rich white European American male. Jenner is no Jesse Owens, Rafer Johnson, Daley Thompson, Dan O'Brien or Carl Lewis. And the new Jenner will be a white woman. Barack Obama is all Black in America no matter his biology or culture.
I have had LGBT in my family. And they were all first born Black with an apparent identifiable physical gender with one exception. One was born intersexed hermaphrodite but raised male. They wanted to be and always felt that they were female. Which was the adult choice that they lived and died with. But they did not have the funds to fully transition.
11
Leave the man alone? Are you kidding? Based on very accurate and considered empirical data, and that is what our conclusions should be based on, the last thing Bruce Jenner ostensibly wants is to be left alone.
7
I bet Kris Jenner is mad at Bruce unless she was able to broker the deal for his exclusive interview.
6
Any transgender decision on the part of a former celebrity and athlete like Jenner publicizing the decision should be done with full disclosure with all the health, psychological, medical and personal basis' for it. Gender is integral to our identity and nature has given very specific reasons for male and female identities. In any other species do we see gender confusion, transition or ambiguity? Why? And why wouldn't great scientists of the past, Aristotle, Pliny, da Vinci, Darwin, and the rest not anticipate this issue?
11
You're conflating sex and gender; biology and social role. There are indeed instances of transgendered behavior in animals, including lab animals specifically dosed with hormones to see what happens.
1
Jenner has played a part in dumbing down the America cultural landscape to the point where I don't want to see or hear about him/them, and I couldn't care less what he does to himself or why. The NYT is playing into this by providing even more publicity. I suppose the paper has to do this, if it's to reflect what's going on in this celebrity culture, but it gives it a kind of legitimacy that just makes the underlying problem worse.
102
Ns, the coverage here in The Times is less Jenner, more transgender. In other words, he's not the conversation, gender reassignment is. And for those who are struggling with gender identity, this is a conversation worth having. As far as the dumbing down of America and Americans, that happened long ago, starting with 'news' outlets that pose as news when they're little better than the reality shows Americans feed off of; so, try re-reading the article.
63
I have no understanding of this psychology, but if you have one life to live, you are free to choose.
27
I disagree with the comment that this decision is his business and his alone because he's teasing it out and keeping things in the public eye. In addition, he's a member of a very attention seeking reality show family. And if he chooses to turn his transition into reality show he's putting it further into the public domain. Like it or not he's starting a very public dialogue.
I actually think he'll look better as a woman. It will make all of the Botox seem less prominent. He can also get fuller lips which I think will make his face more proportional. **I reserve using the pronoun she until he himself actually discloses that he's transitioning.
I actually think he'll look better as a woman. It will make all of the Botox seem less prominent. He can also get fuller lips which I think will make his face more proportional. **I reserve using the pronoun she until he himself actually discloses that he's transitioning.
9
This is a good thing. When it comes to gender identity people should be allowed to be themselves. Those who are struggling should be helped along the way.
32
Whether Bruce Jenner decides to change his gender or not is, for the most part, his business. Many opine that because of the name recognition he enjoys, this will help further the cause of other transgenders. But I believe that is unlikely. Most transgenders do not have the resources or access that he has. And, it seems, at least thus far, that Bruce and the Kardashians are doing it to advance their own visibility rather than advancing the conversation on transgenders. It has been very self-serving and prurient. And that is sad.
21
chickenlover, how many people who are transgender do you know? Most Americans, not just those who identify as transgender, do not have the resources or access that Jenner has. So what is your point? I highly doubt Jenner is (may be) transitioning for 'visibility.' Advancing the conversation on transgender identity is not necessarily his job, but ours. Thank you.
3
Everyone that goes through a gender reassignment does it for themselves. No one does it to "advance the conversation on transgenders." What lofty standards you have!
1
When I was twelve my Dad sat me down for a talk. No it wasn't about the birds and the bees, the one thing that he said to me that is germane to the Jenner spectacle was ," son what I am going to say to you may not make sense to you now, but when you get older it will". " The older you get, the more that you'll realize that truth is stranger than fiction". Dad was a wise sage.
25
So what did he say ?
2
"'Tis strange -- but true; for truth is always strange;
Stranger than fiction."
- Lord Byron, from "Don Juan"
Stranger than fiction."
- Lord Byron, from "Don Juan"
1
There are very few precepts more important than that which commands us to be true to ourselves and to live out the true meaning of autonomy. As I see it, gender reassignment is not the act of becoming something other than what one is innately but rather becoming what one truly is innately. Thus, in this case - if true - I congratulate Jenner and wish him well. I have only two regrets. First - for Jenner's sake - that it took him so long to figure it out. And second, only imagine the terrific blow on behalf of the rights and toward the full acceptance of transgendered people everywhere if Jenner had done this back in the late 70s, hard upon his having won the decathlon in the Olympic Games. At this late stage, this is almost a mere footnote. Still, it's an important opportunity for society to move forward in acceptance of the fact that we are not all made from cookie-cutter molds as either exclusively this or exclusively that. Congratulations to Mr. Jenner and may he be happy.
19
I think this says it all...
"When he reportedly sat the family down to announce his intentions to make the gender transition, Mr. Jenner, his next reality-television project in mind, made sure that the cameras were rolling."
It's very difficult to take people like this seriously. Remember when Joaquin Phoenix pretended to be crazy for a movie project? Fool me once...
"When he reportedly sat the family down to announce his intentions to make the gender transition, Mr. Jenner, his next reality-television project in mind, made sure that the cameras were rolling."
It's very difficult to take people like this seriously. Remember when Joaquin Phoenix pretended to be crazy for a movie project? Fool me once...
142
Joaquin is crazy, of that there is no doubt. There is also no doubt we enable he and Bruce. So sad.
1
I'm sorry, but this is the kind of pathos that results when celebrity worship and political correctness collide - spectacle. I'm sure there are those who think Bruce Jenner's grand epiphany to transgender his way into womanhood seems perfectly normal, to others extremely dysfunctional. Either way we're all going to be the audience in Jenner's bizarre "reality" show transition whether we like it or not. Because at the end of the day America cares more about entertainment than education. Instead of having this experience open up a dialogue about transgenderism it will be portrayed as a pseudo compassionate, "freak show" docudrama on the E network with the Kardashian "clown posse" in full attendance. Seriously, is American culture in a marathon race to the bottom?
275
"Seriously, is American culture in a marathon race to the bottom?"
Yes, but you have the option to not participate...says I, who has just wasted a moment of his precious life commenting on a story that has the name "Kardashian" in it.
Yes, but you have the option to not participate...says I, who has just wasted a moment of his precious life commenting on a story that has the name "Kardashian" in it.
8
No, it's a race to the $$$$.
3
Seriously, yes. I think the race is over and we have won.
2
Exactly. Who cares? Why does this even matter? Let them do what they want.
9
Having this story in the limelight is good news for all people transitioning. It is difficult enough without stigma and articles such as this will bring more and more acceptance not only by the general public, but by the families.
Love & Light to Ms. Jenner.
Love & Light to Ms. Jenner.
7
"Having this story in the limelight is good news for all people transitioning. It is difficult enough without stigma and articles such as this will bring more and more acceptance not only by the general public, but by the families."
Not really. The message to those not in the Transgender community is "these people are all wackos." I don't think that is the case in actuality. But neither Jenner, nor Bono are good role models for a group looking to be understood and accepted by the general population. Dr. Richards is a much better spokesperson.
Not really. The message to those not in the Transgender community is "these people are all wackos." I don't think that is the case in actuality. But neither Jenner, nor Bono are good role models for a group looking to be understood and accepted by the general population. Dr. Richards is a much better spokesperson.
7
Bravo Mr. Jenner, Thank-you for choosing to share your transition with us.
5
So.....is he a lesbian now?
9
Yes Lisa, that is how it works. Heterosexual men that transgender are still attracted to women and are lesbians.
Good God. Gender and sexual orientation are two separate things. I am amazed at comments like this. It's good Jenner is such a public figure. If it takes a public figure, even him, with his ludicrous reality show clap-trap, to get Americans talking, and hopefully educated, even if by a modicum, then so be it.
3
The sexual orientation of a transgendered person does not usually change from the process. If Bruce Jenner has been a heterosexual man, she will likely still be attracted to women after the change.
1
Some of us may be obsessed, sadly, but it is Jenner who is not only obsessed with himself but utterly possessed by a need for attention, of any kind. We should not pay any attention. The deep-seeded psychological motivation for this "transformation" is very suspect.
23
Explains all the marriages.
5
so you're saying you think Elizabeth Taylor was really a man struggling in a woman's body?
7
Probably denial.
1
I am constantly amazed by people who get all upset about the lifestyles of other people. It is their life. You don't like it? Just get on with your life and leave them alone. Bruce, whatever makes you happy.
43
That can't be true. He's 65. Way too old. If he was really Transgender, then this should have started decades ago and not at 65. Show me one person that started this after 30.
Besides, he would have known about this since he was a teenager. Something like this dosen't happen overnight.
Besides, he would have known about this since he was a teenager. Something like this dosen't happen overnight.
13
You couldn't be more wrong. Most Transgenders, who has suppressed their inhibitions most of their lives, tend to confront them in their 50's and 60's. Many had raised families and finally feel it is their time to live their life. Also, until very recently, this was a very taboo subject. It is far easier for younger people of the newer generation to embrace this earlier on than those of Jenner's age group.
66
I'm transgender and yes most of us know we are trans in our early adolescent years. However, there is no timeline of when an individual should or should not transition. Everyone transitions differently, but you're correct, it is not an overnight decision by any means. I believe it's less difficult for someone from recent generations to make their transition versus someone born generations ago. There are many factors that influence transition from upbringing, ethnicity, religion, location, etc.
98
I have a friend whose now ex husband transgendered in his seventies. He was emotionally unstable before and now it is worse. She grieved the loss of a 40 year marriage but is now rebuilding her own life and doing well at long last. She suspects that when female hormone changes that women cope with all our lives through menstrual cycles and menopause hit the aging male brain all at once, it's too much.
Yes he got counseling. The VA took care of the counseling and hormone injections much more quickly than they move for vets who need heart surgery, cancer treatments, or joint replacements.
Yes he got counseling. The VA took care of the counseling and hormone injections much more quickly than they move for vets who need heart surgery, cancer treatments, or joint replacements.
12
Psychological delusion does not change biological fact
39
You know absolutely nothing about transgender.
3
Bruce is getting a lot of media attention. Too bad we do not give the same attention to the homeless and the hungry.
384
Trans people are disproportionately low-income, homeless and hungry because of rampant discrimination in employment, education and housing. Parents also still kick trans youth out of the house. The more people become comfortable with Jenner's transition, the less likely they are to fire someone else for transitioning on the job.
5
So what you're saying is there should be limited coverage of the Olympics until everyone is more aware of those who need shelter and food?
1
Actually, by giving attention to transgender individuals (or those rumored to be), we ARE helping the homeless and the hungry. 40% of homeless youth are LGBT-- when we give more attention to the LGBT community, we are reducing the stigma and promoting visibility for marginalized groups.
You cannot change your gender. The appropriate classification for someone with gender identity disorder is not trans, because you cannot transition into the opposite sex. They should make up a word to express their combination of stereotypical gender behaviors.
12
I'm sure many people find this topic to be bizarre. I would agree. However, I find it more bizarre that a significant part of our population feels compelled to set aside time to keep apprised of every occurrence in this freak show of a "family's" life.
57
LOL. You're right!
Gender reassignment is very common. More power to Jenner if that's what he's actually seeking (it's rumor now).
As for the Kardashians, well, that's a transformation which is representative of the decline of civilization.
As for the Kardashians, well, that's a transformation which is representative of the decline of civilization.
157
Routine as one getting their tooth pulled out?
1
Will Mr. Jenner do this without publicity and money? The answer is probably not. Money is only determining factor and shameless and pride are part of cost of doing business under capitalism.
10
More power to they! I prefer Andreja Pejic's story though. Great coverage in the NYT Sunday Style section a few months back. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/fashion/will-the-fashion-world-accept-...
3
Curious that this article makes a point of referencing other transgender celebrities by their former identities, instead of what they have chosen themselves, i.e., "Chastity (now Chaz) Bono." Shouldn't it be the other way around -- "Chaz (formerly Chastity) Bono"?
I don't think it's a small matter of punctuation. By putting these current -- and hard-won -- names in parentheses, the NYT betrays a subtle refusal to accept these individuals' choices. If Jenner elects to become known by a feminine first name, will the paper honor that decision? Should be easy enough to print, say, "Belinda (formerly Bruce) Jenner." Or will the paper put Jenner's new identity in parentheses, too?
I don't think it's a small matter of punctuation. By putting these current -- and hard-won -- names in parentheses, the NYT betrays a subtle refusal to accept these individuals' choices. If Jenner elects to become known by a feminine first name, will the paper honor that decision? Should be easy enough to print, say, "Belinda (formerly Bruce) Jenner." Or will the paper put Jenner's new identity in parentheses, too?
145
It would be a nice courtesy but that's all. You realize that no one is actually changing their sex, they are only getting surgery and taking hormones?
As an aside, I thought all the gender academics were telling us gender is primarily a social construct. So which is it, is Jenner going to transform for a cultural and personality reasons or is their a woman's wiring inside him? And if it's just a choice, then why not therapy? If not a choice, then please define for us what is inherently male and female so that we can all understand what identities we really are.
And I don't care what T's want to do, and grant all legal and social protections, but there still remains a possibility that this is all just mental illness.
As an aside, I thought all the gender academics were telling us gender is primarily a social construct. So which is it, is Jenner going to transform for a cultural and personality reasons or is their a woman's wiring inside him? And if it's just a choice, then why not therapy? If not a choice, then please define for us what is inherently male and female so that we can all understand what identities we really are.
And I don't care what T's want to do, and grant all legal and social protections, but there still remains a possibility that this is all just mental illness.
11
Spot-on. You think your last trip to the DMV was a pain? Imagine the bureaucratic barriers transgender people face receiving updated ID documents when 22% of transgender people surveyed were denied equal treatment by a government agency or official (A Report of the National Transgender Discrimination Survey 2011). Now imagine updating your drivers license, social security, birth certificates and education records as a transgender person.
"Of those who have transitioned gender, only 21% have been able to update all of their IDs and records with their new gender. 40% of those who presented ID (when it was required in the ordinary course of life) that did not match their gender identity/expression reported being harassed, 3% reported being attacked or assaulted and 15% reported being asked to leave."
it is financially unfeasible for many transgender people to change their name legally (>$300.) Lets put this in perspective: "transgender people face double the unemployment rates compared to the general population, and 90% reported experiencing harassment, mistreatment or discrimination on the job or took actions like hiding who they are to avoid it."
We are brave, resilient people. Oftentimes out of necessity. But I can speak for many and say that we're fed up with blatantly unstudied articles on transgender people. Do your homework NYT. It's not a lot to ask to be referred to by a name we strove so fiercely to be ours.
"Of those who have transitioned gender, only 21% have been able to update all of their IDs and records with their new gender. 40% of those who presented ID (when it was required in the ordinary course of life) that did not match their gender identity/expression reported being harassed, 3% reported being attacked or assaulted and 15% reported being asked to leave."
it is financially unfeasible for many transgender people to change their name legally (>$300.) Lets put this in perspective: "transgender people face double the unemployment rates compared to the general population, and 90% reported experiencing harassment, mistreatment or discrimination on the job or took actions like hiding who they are to avoid it."
We are brave, resilient people. Oftentimes out of necessity. But I can speak for many and say that we're fed up with blatantly unstudied articles on transgender people. Do your homework NYT. It's not a lot to ask to be referred to by a name we strove so fiercely to be ours.
4
To those of us who watched the young Bruce Jenner star in the 1976 Olympics, the fact that he is now 65 years old is what is truly shocking, not his gender change. How did all those years pass so quickly?
147
That's what I've been thinking.
6
Since retiring from tennis, Renee Richards has been a practicing dentist. Would it not be appropriate, as well as consistent with Times style, to refer to her as "Dr. Richards"?
32
Dr. RIchards is not a dentist, but was at one time "the surgeon director of ophthalmology and head of the eye-muscle clinic at the Manhattan Eye, Ear and Throat Hospital."
7
Thank you, jbee, you are correct. She is an ophthalmologist.
Some folks comment that this is "private" and that "it's his life". Well, not really. When he became a satellite in the Kardashian bunch, he gave up privacy. When I read the part about the cameras rolling as he told his family of his plans, I wondered whether this was all a con game.
Perhaps he'll make his announcement on ESPN...THAT would be fitting.
I hope the NYT will stop doing features on this story.
Perhaps he'll make his announcement on ESPN...THAT would be fitting.
I hope the NYT will stop doing features on this story.
32
"Some folks comment that this is "private" and that "it's his life". "
If it's private and his life, then he should keep it private and his life. If he'd done that I would have had some respect for his decision. As it is, there is really no other conclusion to draw than it's a publicity stunt for the Krazy Kardashians.
And plucking your eyebrows does not send you on a journey toward womanhood it simply highlights all of the freaky plastic surgery you've had over the last few years.
If it's private and his life, then he should keep it private and his life. If he'd done that I would have had some respect for his decision. As it is, there is really no other conclusion to draw than it's a publicity stunt for the Krazy Kardashians.
And plucking your eyebrows does not send you on a journey toward womanhood it simply highlights all of the freaky plastic surgery you've had over the last few years.
10
Mr. Jenner is free to become Ms. Jenner if he choses. If he makes it into a TV show and people watch, then that's their problem. I still shake my head in amazement that the American public has made the likes of the Kardasians "celebrities" and that we now have a category referred to as reality show "star." How little it takes in today's world to win those labels!
340
@Anne-Marie Hislop. "How little it takes in today's world to win those labels! I wonder how many "reality show star" fans can name even one person awarded a Nobel or Pulitzer Prize in 2014.
10
I agree...but I wouldn't call it winning.
2
As this becomes more and more common, the response from society is going to be a shrug, or else a hearty congratulations. To me, this is no big deal. But then I'm not part of Jenner's family. Perhaps for some of them it will be a difficult adjustment.
33
This is a weird, weird world.
73
"This is a weird, weird world."
Well, not only is the Universe stranger than we think, it's stranger than we CAN think. So don't stress trying to figure it out.
Well, not only is the Universe stranger than we think, it's stranger than we CAN think. So don't stress trying to figure it out.
8
Live your life, Bruce. Be happy.
131
But as Esther Williams said to Jeff Chandler (according to her)
"You're too big for polka dots."
"You're too big for polka dots."
4
What Jenner chooses to be, and when, are his business and his alone. To the person who said he should have done this 30 years ago: who are you to judge. And if Jenner chooses to monetize this via reality TV, so be it. Again, Jenner's affair alone.
40
Saying it's Jenner's business alone is not consistent with Jenner's publicity-seekingmand filming for his next reality show, etc.
18
Absolutely! To thine own self be true. Bravo/brava Jenner!
I'm still not convinced that the Kardashian Klan isn't punking all of us with this presumed transition: they've come very close to maxing out on all of the other possibilities for garnering attention. If Mr. Jenner ultimately reveals that he just can't go through with the gender change we'll have to look forward to Khloe marrying an ISIS member or Kourtney eating her own placenta.
374
Ha, funny indeed Stu. But I figure: At least the Kardashians and Jenner come by their riches more honestly than any too-big-to-fail bank executive.
10
"Transitioning from a male to female" Not only is it bizarre, especially in Mr. Jenner's case because of his strange looks from the masculine man he used to look like, but biologically impossible. You can't change DNA. Just because someone artificially changes his looks with plastic surgery and Botox, grows long hair and chest with a change of clothes doesn't fool mother nature or anyone else.
69
You appear to be assuming that sex or gender or both are genetic. That is not always the case. There are plenty of conditions where someone may be intersexed; there are a variety of situations in which this happens: mosaic genetics: having xx and xy chromosomes, or Kleinfelter syndrome (xxy) or androgen insensitivity syndrome, congenital adrenal hyperplasia, mixed gonadal dysgenesis, and a dozen others... I don't think we know if Bruce Jenner is intersexed or not. Biologically, it may be the case that he is more "female" than male... but anatomically he has appeared more "male," and now he's choosing to become more like the person he really is. My point is that what he is doing is entirely "biologially possible" because the biology is not always clear cut. In fact, that is precisely one reason why trans/intersexed, and other types of individuals exist: sex and gender are social decisions, not always one's rooted in biology.
152
if i'm correct, Mr. Jenner has fathered several children. It would seem he is male. and i doubt whether you can win the Olympic decathlon, competing against other males, when you're intersexed.
15
C'mon. Gender may be whatever the chattering class wants it to be. But sex is genetic (respecting a few near misses). And for a willowing young man with almost no muscles, perhaps they can disappear into womanhood. But for a man who had very developed man sized muscles, whatever Jenner may want to be, his old sex characteristics will remain to some extent.
16
Let's keep it real if he(that'ts right I said he) was truly courageous he would had done this thirty to 40 years ago if he had the urge to become a woman. At least then he would had been ahead of the curve. Even though its his personal choice it still has ramifications on his family and his close friends. Imagine his daughters being asked on the red carpet on how it feels to have two mothers when one used to be your father. He should stick it out being a man for the rest of his natural life. If he believes in reincarnation he should ask God that he should be made a woman in his next lifetime.
15
damon--why don't you walk a mile in his shoes--or heels--and get back to us!
71
Is that some sort of mixed metaphor, God/reincarnation?
For those of us who see no evidence for there being more than the life we're living, the suggestion to wait it out is preposterous to say the least.
What I really don't get, as usual, is how people who are in no way affected by decisions other people make in their lives, feel they have a right to proscribe.
For those of us who see no evidence for there being more than the life we're living, the suggestion to wait it out is preposterous to say the least.
What I really don't get, as usual, is how people who are in no way affected by decisions other people make in their lives, feel they have a right to proscribe.
23
Uhh... not really... thirty or forty years ago, Jenner would have almost definitely been drug through the streets until they bled to death just because they're perceived as being trans. This is still an actual thing that happens to Trans people, mind you.
Thirty to Forty years ago, transitioning was also going to get you locked up in a sanitorium. Or a prison. Or both. Besides street safety, medically transitioning was probably one of the worst things you could do for your body.
Thirty to Forty years ago, transitioning was also going to get you locked up in a sanitorium. Or a prison. Or both. Besides street safety, medically transitioning was probably one of the worst things you could do for your body.
17
Could this land Jenner back on the Wheaties box?
31
Imagine that crazy, wonderful, loving world.
8
But what about Kalypso Karashian, the forgotten sister from the K-K-K family?
Seriously, and with all due respect to Bruce Jenner for past athletic accomplishments and good wishes whatever s/he hopes for the future, this is a trite subject. I hope for better from the NY Times.
Seriously, and with all due respect to Bruce Jenner for past athletic accomplishments and good wishes whatever s/he hopes for the future, this is a trite subject. I hope for better from the NY Times.
70
Pardon the unfortunate typo, that should be "Kalypso Kardashian."
2
To each his own - but that just isn't going to be one "attractive/glamorous lady".
I hope he/she finds a wonderful man/woman to take care of him/her.
I hope he/she finds a wonderful man/woman to take care of him/her.
9
Why does Jenner need someone to take care of him/her? Many people are single.
18
Are you assuming that after he becomes a woman he'll no longer be able to take care of himself?
16
Looks as though she can take care of herself and be attractive as well.
8
But the bottomline is a person should be free to be in control of how they want to live their life.
I wish him happiness.