Was watching a Canadian news report today on the four cases of measles in Canada. Straight reporting, no hyperbole and only an expert with clear explanations as to why the vaccination was important. Finally, no Jenny McCarthy type celebrity, to offer their opinion on why vaccines were bad. Giving these people equal weight along with the scientific community is what causes the problem.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/measles-cases-could-lead-to-outbre...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/measles-cases-could-lead-to-outbre...
6
Given that this forum is approaching 2000 comments, I doubt mine will make much of a difference; nor will my multiple replies to other posts, but here goes:
1) The Times has published numerous articles from a variety of locations, perspectives, and prisms through which to view this issue.
2) while all are health-related, obviously, some have been about the social aspects, such as this one: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/us/vaccine-critics-turn-defensive-o...
(And yes - it's about those "coastal liberal elites!")
3) This particular article is about the outbreak and viewpoints on it as it pertains to potential GOP presidential candidates.
4) That is certainly newsworthy! Doesn't the public have a right and need to know where hopefuls stand on public health issues such as this?
5) this article is meant to be about how the GOP is talking about this issue. It is not meant to be a comprehensive article that covers every aspect of measles, vaccinations, public health, social groups, political groups, and so on.
6) it's not biased to feature this article. It is, rather, a small piece of the Times' coverage of this important news story.
Thank you.
1) The Times has published numerous articles from a variety of locations, perspectives, and prisms through which to view this issue.
2) while all are health-related, obviously, some have been about the social aspects, such as this one: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/us/vaccine-critics-turn-defensive-o...
(And yes - it's about those "coastal liberal elites!")
3) This particular article is about the outbreak and viewpoints on it as it pertains to potential GOP presidential candidates.
4) That is certainly newsworthy! Doesn't the public have a right and need to know where hopefuls stand on public health issues such as this?
5) this article is meant to be about how the GOP is talking about this issue. It is not meant to be a comprehensive article that covers every aspect of measles, vaccinations, public health, social groups, political groups, and so on.
6) it's not biased to feature this article. It is, rather, a small piece of the Times' coverage of this important news story.
Thank you.
2
You think this vaccine stuff is bad . . . just wait until the Majority Republicans in Congress get ahold of the amount of Dihydogen Monoxide that Big Pharma uses in the preparation of all medicines !
5
You are absolutely right! About 4000 people die every year in the US alone from inhaling this lethal substance. It completely prevents all gas exchange in the lungs, yet, it is virtually unregulated. The pharmaceutical industry is using millions of gallons of it every month. And in the end, they just pour it down the drain!
How comes Rand Paul isn't batting an eye about that scandal?!
It's just mind boggling!
How comes Rand Paul isn't batting an eye about that scandal?!
It's just mind boggling!
4
I posted earlier but it seems some of what I said was omitted. I'll try again -
For all those who say "proved science" I remember what a chemistry teacher said - "everything I'm teaching you is wrong but it's the best explanation we have so far".
Not said earlier, at one time Newton was deemed the epitome of the truth for all physics. Where would we be if Einstein agreed?
The vilification of - not just those who refuse all vaccines, but even dare question some of the science behind current recommendations is even more unscientific than the deniers themselves.
For all those who say "proved science" I remember what a chemistry teacher said - "everything I'm teaching you is wrong but it's the best explanation we have so far".
Not said earlier, at one time Newton was deemed the epitome of the truth for all physics. Where would we be if Einstein agreed?
The vilification of - not just those who refuse all vaccines, but even dare question some of the science behind current recommendations is even more unscientific than the deniers themselves.
4
As a former chemistry professor I can only assume that you did not fully appreciate what your chemistry teacher was trying to say. It comes down to believing in what has been shown to be true by valid scientific methods reviewed by others in the same field...unless and until some one can prove by similar standards that the earlier conclusions were wrong. All of the peer reviewed scientific evidence to date fully supports childhood vaccine safety. There is no valid scientific evidence to the contrary- none whatsoever. Thousands of children have been studied with and without autism, for example, and using standard epidemiological methods there is no link between vaccination and autism spectrum disorder. The so-called scientist who claimed there was a link turned out to be a fraud. His paper has been retracted. In the face of all the scientific evidence that is supported again and again by independent researchers, there is no acceptable rationale for anyone who wants to believe that vaccines are not what they have been shown to be - safe and effective. Einstein would be 100% in agreement with current need for childhood vaccination because he used scientific methods to prove his theories.
12
I would like the thank the NY Times for doing such a wonderful job over the last several days bringing to light the important public health issue of the anti-vaccine movement. My pediatrician colleagues and I try hard each day to educate families about the safety of vaccines in an attempt to reduce many preventable diseases. Children do contract these illnesses and they do in fact die.
After several days of excellent coverage on the topic my office received a record number of calls today from parents finally eager to get their partially unvaccinated children up to date. Bravo Times!
It appears that the anti vaccine movement is a complicated issue but with good and accurate reporting parents can see the importance and the safety of vaccines. Parents want the best for their children but the mixed signals and over abundance of misinformation has made medical decision making difficult.
As long as we have the countrie's 2 most anti-vaccine publicists, Matt Lauer and Jenny McCarthy, parents will continue to be confused, misinformed and children will die.
Dr. G
Pediatrician
NY
After several days of excellent coverage on the topic my office received a record number of calls today from parents finally eager to get their partially unvaccinated children up to date. Bravo Times!
It appears that the anti vaccine movement is a complicated issue but with good and accurate reporting parents can see the importance and the safety of vaccines. Parents want the best for their children but the mixed signals and over abundance of misinformation has made medical decision making difficult.
As long as we have the countrie's 2 most anti-vaccine publicists, Matt Lauer and Jenny McCarthy, parents will continue to be confused, misinformed and children will die.
Dr. G
Pediatrician
NY
5
Thoughts:
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” Martin Luther King, Jr.
“You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.” Ayn Rand
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” Martin Luther King, Jr.
“You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.” Ayn Rand
3
It is appalling that we need to have the vaccine discussion at this point in medical history.
The risk of serious side effect from measles vaccine is estimated to be about one in one million...safer than riding in a car with the parent who refuses to protect their child and the public at large. There are no excuses for avoiding the proven safe and effective childhood vaccines in use today. Furthermore, any politician who supports anti-vaccine options is not fit for public office.
With respect to the Big Pharma conspiracy theories, the CDC and not vaccine makers are the ones rightfully pushing childhood vaccines. The vaccines work very well and have very low rates of adverse outcomes. These vaccines are off patent and there is little incentive for Big Pharma to stay in that business. Furthermore regardless of how much net profit the vaccine companies makes, the value to society of vaccines far, far exceeds the price tag. We would be paying incalculable amounts to treat annual epidemics of diseases now largely under control because of vaccines.
Concerning the earlier claims about autism, Lancet retracted the fraudulent "vaccine link to autism" paper published in 1998 by AJ Wakefield. He falsified data to make his outrageous lies look real. Unfortunately it the paper was not withdrawn until 2010 by which time many unknowing people withheld vaccines from their children. Wakefield is indeed a criminal.
The risk of serious side effect from measles vaccine is estimated to be about one in one million...safer than riding in a car with the parent who refuses to protect their child and the public at large. There are no excuses for avoiding the proven safe and effective childhood vaccines in use today. Furthermore, any politician who supports anti-vaccine options is not fit for public office.
With respect to the Big Pharma conspiracy theories, the CDC and not vaccine makers are the ones rightfully pushing childhood vaccines. The vaccines work very well and have very low rates of adverse outcomes. These vaccines are off patent and there is little incentive for Big Pharma to stay in that business. Furthermore regardless of how much net profit the vaccine companies makes, the value to society of vaccines far, far exceeds the price tag. We would be paying incalculable amounts to treat annual epidemics of diseases now largely under control because of vaccines.
Concerning the earlier claims about autism, Lancet retracted the fraudulent "vaccine link to autism" paper published in 1998 by AJ Wakefield. He falsified data to make his outrageous lies look real. Unfortunately it the paper was not withdrawn until 2010 by which time many unknowing people withheld vaccines from their children. Wakefield is indeed a criminal.
5
"The risk of serious side effect from measles vaccine is estimated to be about one in one million..."
I agree with your rough estimate, but less severe contraindications are more common. The jury is still out on some speculative risks mentioned on CDC in 2013 (last paragraph), so it gives fuel to the anti-vaccine people.
fever (<15%)
transient rashes (5%)
transient lymphadenopathy (5% of children and 20% of adults)
parotitis (<1%)
anaphylaxis (1.8–14.4 per million doses)
febrile seizures (1 per 3,000 to 4,000 doses)
thrombocytopenic purpura ITP (1 per 40,000 doses)
arthralgia for adult women can be as high as 25%
measles inclusion body encephalitis (only 1-3 known cases)
"Available evidence was not adequate to accept or reject a causal relation between MMR vaccine and the following conditions: acute disseminated encephalomyelitis, afebrile seizures, brachial neuritis, chronic arthralgia, chronic arthritis, chronic fatigue syndrome, chronic inflammatory disseminated polyneuropathy, encephalopathy, fibromyalgia, Guillain-Barré syndrome, hearing loss, hepatitis, meningitis, multiple sclerosis, neuromyelitis optica, optic neuritis, transverse myelitis, opsoclonus myoclonus syndrome, or radiculoneuritis and other neuropathies."
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6204a1.htm?s_cid=rr6204a1_w
I agree with your rough estimate, but less severe contraindications are more common. The jury is still out on some speculative risks mentioned on CDC in 2013 (last paragraph), so it gives fuel to the anti-vaccine people.
fever (<15%)
transient rashes (5%)
transient lymphadenopathy (5% of children and 20% of adults)
parotitis (<1%)
anaphylaxis (1.8–14.4 per million doses)
febrile seizures (1 per 3,000 to 4,000 doses)
thrombocytopenic purpura ITP (1 per 40,000 doses)
arthralgia for adult women can be as high as 25%
measles inclusion body encephalitis (only 1-3 known cases)
"Available evidence was not adequate to accept or reject a causal relation between MMR vaccine and the following conditions: acute disseminated encephalomyelitis, afebrile seizures, brachial neuritis, chronic arthralgia, chronic arthritis, chronic fatigue syndrome, chronic inflammatory disseminated polyneuropathy, encephalopathy, fibromyalgia, Guillain-Barré syndrome, hearing loss, hepatitis, meningitis, multiple sclerosis, neuromyelitis optica, optic neuritis, transverse myelitis, opsoclonus myoclonus syndrome, or radiculoneuritis and other neuropathies."
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6204a1.htm?s_cid=rr6204a1_w
2
Excellent map to look at this issue globally, especially good for the commenters who want to blame immigration from Central America. We wouldn't be having these headlines today if we had an immunization rate like Nicaragua's, for instance.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/02/03/map-113-cou...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/02/03/map-113-cou...
3
There is no credible evidence that MMR vaccinations cause mental illness. What's the reason for Rand Paul's?
4
I think both Gov Christie and Sen Paul can kiss their White House chances good bye- most people will not forgot there idiotic comments and won't forgive them- voters will probably be more scared of them now then before all of this.
6
Is it hypocritical that this "measure of choice" and "personal decision for individuals" related to medical procedures doesn't include abortions?
8
How many of the posters here have gotten a TdaP? One of the biggest contributors to Pertussis in babies. If not, you should not be vilifying anyone.
Also I don't like Christy at all but he said parents should have some control - operative word being some. I don't disagree - MMR for all but maybe not so many of the others. Refusing some poses minimal public health risk though increasing personal risk. If parent is aware maybe they should have that option.
Also I don't like Christy at all but he said parents should have some control - operative word being some. I don't disagree - MMR for all but maybe not so many of the others. Refusing some poses minimal public health risk though increasing personal risk. If parent is aware maybe they should have that option.
2
I'm one, and it's irresponsible and factually wrong to state the TDaP vaccine is "one of the biggest contributors to pertussis in babies" The biggest contributor to babies contracting pertussis (Whooping Cough) is other people with the disease. Check the CDC site, and the page on this vaccine. Since its introduction, pertussis rates in the U.S. have dropped approximately 80% (from nearly 200,000 per year to 43,000). This figure is in the Mortality and Morbidity report of the CDC, and is the product of reports from across the country. Where'd you get your degree in Public Health, allowing you to determine what are "minimal" public health risks? I came about my information the old fashioned way, I took a certificate in epidemiology while I did my post-doc.
3
Senator Paul: Parents do not "own" their children. They are guardians charged with responsibility for their children's well-being, both physical and moral. When scientific evidence and real-world facts demonstrate that immunization is essential to safeguard a child's health, no parent has the right to treat her child like a "possession" that can be made subject to the parent's whims and unsubstantiated beliefs. Parents have been criminally convicted for willful neglect of their child's health.
1
Failing to protect a child against disease is tantamount to child abuse.
1
Which is why all the parents who have children with diabetes, cancer or muscular dystrophy should be in jail!
2
It seems to me even if autism and other speculations were not a factor, there are enough MMR contraindications, precautions, and safety issues listed by the CDC to cause parents some hesitation. At the very least, the full list of CDC MMR safety issues gives understanding as to why young parents or parents-to-be question vaccines (not political parties). View the Contraindications and Precautions section, plus the Safety section that follows on this CDC page to see what I mean: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6204a1.htm?s_cid=rr6204a1_w
I also think some parents view the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program as a confirmation to the reality of vaccine contraindications.
Vaccine development is now a common approach to fight disease, so the number of vaccines are increasing exponentially. Some might view an increase in vaccines as an increase in risk for contraindications that might eventually reach a tipping point.
I think accurate stats need to be developed, updated, and communicated to compare risks with or without as vaccine options multiply. I also think the best investment for both pro and anti is to support autism research to put that aspect to rest.
I also think some parents view the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program as a confirmation to the reality of vaccine contraindications.
Vaccine development is now a common approach to fight disease, so the number of vaccines are increasing exponentially. Some might view an increase in vaccines as an increase in risk for contraindications that might eventually reach a tipping point.
I think accurate stats need to be developed, updated, and communicated to compare risks with or without as vaccine options multiply. I also think the best investment for both pro and anti is to support autism research to put that aspect to rest.
1
"I also think some parents view the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program as a confirmation to the reality of vaccine contradictions."
This parent does not view such a program that points to the possible faults that vaccinations may cause but a medical malpractice insurance policy disaster. There are no guarantees in the medical profession. I say this as a lay person but I do have a basic understanding.
Our current medical malpractice insurance industry is out of control. I do not imply for one second that we do not need protection from incompetent doctors and hospitals, not at all. What I am referring to is an industry that preys upon each and every bad result as a way to squeeze as much money from them so these lawyers can grow fat.
It is not just vaccinations but our entire healthcare industry that has been held hostage to this out-of-control and self-serving medical malpractice industry. As an example, late night TV has ads by lawyer firms that will sue for the very same drugs advertised in that morning's programs! There is certainly something rotten about that process, and it is a drag to everyone in our country. This abuse knows no party affiliation or regional differences.
This parent does not view such a program that points to the possible faults that vaccinations may cause but a medical malpractice insurance policy disaster. There are no guarantees in the medical profession. I say this as a lay person but I do have a basic understanding.
Our current medical malpractice insurance industry is out of control. I do not imply for one second that we do not need protection from incompetent doctors and hospitals, not at all. What I am referring to is an industry that preys upon each and every bad result as a way to squeeze as much money from them so these lawyers can grow fat.
It is not just vaccinations but our entire healthcare industry that has been held hostage to this out-of-control and self-serving medical malpractice industry. As an example, late night TV has ads by lawyer firms that will sue for the very same drugs advertised in that morning's programs! There is certainly something rotten about that process, and it is a drag to everyone in our country. This abuse knows no party affiliation or regional differences.
3
I get what you are saying. The VICP and its trust fund has its own controversies, but having a $2.25 excise tax for every MMR vaccine given go to a fund to cover contraindication claims probably doesn't reassure some parents that the vaccine is completely safe. http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation
This issue certainly underscores how bad it would be to put candidates in the White House who don't or refuse to understand the basic science of infectious disease.
3
Well with that rationale, California, a one party state, better start cleaning house immediately. Here, personal choice is far more important than public safety, yet we still elect politicians who fully support the personal belief exemption.
3
Keep talking Christie... Throw or squeeze yourself under the bus.
Keep shooting yourself in the foot, you cant miss....
Keep talking Christie...
Keep shooting yourself in the foot, you cant miss....
Keep talking Christie...
5
Perhaps a civil dialogue on the topic is needed instead of the vitriolic comments. While I support vaccines, the overwhelming narrative from the media has been that those who chose not to vaccinate are ignorant, dismissive of science or illogical. If vaccines work, then why have those vaccinated undividuals contracted measles? Why are we so absolute in stating that vaccines do not cause autism by just debunking a single study? More importantly, why don't we have a civil discussion to hear the concerns of both sides? It may be better to listen to the other side, especially due to the the current one-sided coverage of the issue.
3
As you've asked civilly, I'll try to reply in kind. Vaccines, on a broad scale, work. They are not equally effective for each individual, and in fact, may prove ineffective for some individuals (no telling ahead of time). There are, in addition, many people who are ineligible to receive the injections, due to age (infants, and, for some, extreme old age), compromised immune systems ( including autoimmune disorders, chemotherapy and other medical conditions), mitochondrial illnesses and other health-related problems. Immunity and protection conferred by vaccines stems from the notion of herd immunity, which, like a levee, is designed to hold back flood waters (in this case, wide spread of a pathogen), by ensuring enough of the population is vaccinated, that infected individuals are effectively shielded from infecting others. This only works when a sufficiently high ratio of vaccinated to unvaccinated individuals (usually between 90-95%) is maintained. When the threshold level isn't attained, there's a danger to many in the population, not simply the individual who opts out of vaccination.
As to the issue of autism. It's explosive rise in prevalence is likely due to several factors. Diagnostic criteria have broadened considerably, and it is now recognized as a syndrome, rather than a single disorder. The Wakefield study wasn't just discredited, he admitted to falsifying the data. There have been no studies finding a causal link between vaccines and autism.
As to the issue of autism. It's explosive rise in prevalence is likely due to several factors. Diagnostic criteria have broadened considerably, and it is now recognized as a syndrome, rather than a single disorder. The Wakefield study wasn't just discredited, he admitted to falsifying the data. There have been no studies finding a causal link between vaccines and autism.
2
Here's a man who wanted to ban entry to the U.S. for those who worked in regions of the world with Ebola. But for measles--that's much more contagious--he believes that there should be "choice." Irrational in the extreme.
10
The proven fact is that the two biggest reasons that humans have the life expectancy they do now is because of vaccinations and hygiene/clean drinking water.
A large number of adults today have the luxury of not knowing what life was like pre-immunizations, but make no mistake, the lesson will be relearned; unfortunately, at the expense of some children's lives. These children are disrupting the human herd immunity and should not be allowed in public school. That their parents are committed to following conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory is fine, but should not be at the expense of the rest of society.
A large number of adults today have the luxury of not knowing what life was like pre-immunizations, but make no mistake, the lesson will be relearned; unfortunately, at the expense of some children's lives. These children are disrupting the human herd immunity and should not be allowed in public school. That their parents are committed to following conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory is fine, but should not be at the expense of the rest of society.
3
Well the Republicans really bit the big one this time. Their little experiment with anti-science thinking is about to backfire. The Republicans are almost all on record saying something about not having your kids vaccinated. Now with a measles epidemic taking off they will definitely be blamed for the sickness and death that will soon follow. Not like Ebola, MEASLES IS VERY CONTAGIOUS.
1
Measles is not a political issue, unless you would like to ding California, the state with the most measles cases, the hardest for being anti-science.
2
Shouldn't someone point out that many of the kids that get sick with these childhood illnesses are actually "vaccinated" children. For example, consider the chicken pox vaccine --- marketed as a vaccine that "works" -- many children that come down with the chicken pox have indeed received the vaccine that was supposed to prevent the illness. So, the hashtag should be "#vaccines work, well sort of, well some time, well not all the time, well we really don't know how often they fail, well you are not really vaccinated against the condition..."
1
"Many" people think Nickelback is the greatest band ever.
1
Of course vaccines work. That's why we haven't had any epidemics that
we vaccinate for here in the United States. When I was a kid, I and
most of my friends had measles, chicken pox, mumps, my brother
has whooping cough. No one I knew got polio, thank goodness, and
when the vaccine was available, my mother had my brother and me
vaccinated as soon as possible.
Of course, this was 50 plus years ago...but it could happen again.
we vaccinate for here in the United States. When I was a kid, I and
most of my friends had measles, chicken pox, mumps, my brother
has whooping cough. No one I knew got polio, thank goodness, and
when the vaccine was available, my mother had my brother and me
vaccinated as soon as possible.
Of course, this was 50 plus years ago...but it could happen again.
4
The chicken-pox vaccine works, but even when it was first introduced, it was advised that the period of effectiveness was probably between 10-12 years. The idea was to provide protection through the years when children are most vulnerable to acquiring the virus. This is simply a straw man argument. Use some facts in the future, please.
1
Should the high risk population for hepatitis face forced vaccinations?
1
As a U.S. senator and presidential candidate in 2008, Hillary Clinton expressed support for the theory that childhood vaccinations contribute to autism, writing in a campaign questionnaire that she was “committed” to finding the causes of autism, including “possible environmental causes like vaccines.”
4
You either made that up or heard it on Fox News. Same difference.
3
No, Jack. You should read more. Savron is correct.
3
The 2008 reference was an interview about the safety of Thimerosal, a preservative used in vaccines. Thimerosal contains mercury, this news in 2008 was new to America and, of course, there was concern about the use of this ingredient in vaccines. Hillary Clinton said that she supports the science to insure that vaccines should be safe and she, if she were president, would do all to make them safe.
There is NO quote or intimation that Hillary Clinton at all doubted that full vaccination of the American populace was not the preferred policy. None whatsoever!
savron cherry picked this news and presented it in a dishonest, incomplete manner. You know, it is tireless, somewhat thankless work to constantly repudiate these ridiculous charges. Tough work but someone has to do it.
By the way Claudia, what are your references?
There is NO quote or intimation that Hillary Clinton at all doubted that full vaccination of the American populace was not the preferred policy. None whatsoever!
savron cherry picked this news and presented it in a dishonest, incomplete manner. You know, it is tireless, somewhat thankless work to constantly repudiate these ridiculous charges. Tough work but someone has to do it.
By the way Claudia, what are your references?
7
This is just the continuing attack on science and knowledge by some on the far right. But you would think Dr. Rand Paul would know better (maybe his libertarianism got the best of him).
Both he and Gov. Christie have the misfortune of running for president and therefore have to pander to the unbelievers in their party. But both just handed themselves a self-inflicted wound with Christie’s people issuing a correction on the matter later that day. Both should know better but their ambition has gotten in the way of science and knowledge.
Both he and Gov. Christie have the misfortune of running for president and therefore have to pander to the unbelievers in their party. But both just handed themselves a self-inflicted wound with Christie’s people issuing a correction on the matter later that day. Both should know better but their ambition has gotten in the way of science and knowledge.
3
The demographics show that most anti-vaxxers are Democrats. Why would this be a GOP issue?
5
Because the GOP presidential candidates are saying they would enable dangerous behavior. If Hillary said it, it would be just as big if an issue.
Because your Grand Old Party is the only one pushing it.
Itf "most" anti-vaxxers are Democrats, why are the candidates pandering to the anti-vaxxers running for the Republican nomination?
1
It's not the government to be concerned about, but the purely profit driven drug dealers.
It's the government's role to keep an eye on them, which is to be judiciously promoted, and seems to be the weak link in the whole disease-fixin system.
It's the government's role to keep an eye on them, which is to be judiciously promoted, and seems to be the weak link in the whole disease-fixin system.
Jeez, talk about biased journalism. This has never been a GOP issue. The state with the toughest vaccination requirements and the highest rate of measles vaccination is deep red Mississippi (99.7%). The state with among the most liberal exemptions from vaccination and one of the highest rates of unvaccinated kindergarteners (3.3%) is deep blue California, which is currently led by Governor New Age himself, Jerry Brown. The anti-vaccine hysteria was stirred up by Democrat-supporting trial lawyers looking for a big day and fueled by organic veggie loving, "natural environment" worshipping liberal parents. Yet, who gets the attention and the gotcha questions? Republicans.
11
The list of states with vaccination rates less than 90% according to a 2013 CDC is quite varied and doesn't include California (at least overall): The 17 states with coverage below 90% are: Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, New Mexico, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wyoming.
1
Why is it biased to report on what the Republican Presidential candidates are saying? When one of the "Democrat supporting trial lawyers" runs for President, then they'll get the attention.
Pretty simple to see where the bias is.
Pretty simple to see where the bias is.
4
What democratic politician is out there advocating only voluntary vaccinations. Name one and I will gladly criticize him or her with equal zest.
2
Interesting enough, US armed service personnel and civilians under military contract are required to get anthrax and small pox vaccines.
Seems like the US does "own" it's military employees and has no moral qualm against experimental vaccination for against man-made biological weapons.
Just sayin'. . .this whole vaccine debate opens up a lot of wormy cans. . .
Seems like the US does "own" it's military employees and has no moral qualm against experimental vaccination for against man-made biological weapons.
Just sayin'. . .this whole vaccine debate opens up a lot of wormy cans. . .
2
People up on their history know that more military personnel have been killed by measles historically than by combat.
2
DBL, quite the statistic! I thought I read history but now I feel I know nothing. Thanks for the eye opener!
Yes I'm a Republican and I've become become aware of the serious concerns with vaccines and the CDC itself from noted anti-science Republican RFK Jr and noted anti-science CDC scientist DR. William Thompson, among a good number of notable others. This could work the other way. Thinking and informed progressives who are educated enough to understand that there is considerable reason to be concerned about the safety of vaccines and the integrity of the agencies that approve them may conclude that those who claim to be progressive and science-based yet continually ignore these credible cries of alarm, from highly qualified and conscientious scientists and others, are in the pocket of big pharma or pandering to a quivering gray elite for whom it would seem the possibility of consequent neurological damage to at least a significant vulnerable subset of our nation's children is an entirely secondary matter.
1
Parents also do not own their children.
5
In addition to clean water and sanitation there has been nothing from modern science that has produced such a reduction in mortality and morbidity in human diseases than vaccines. We define these diseases as “preventable” diseases. Now we have unenlightened parents and politicians who are speaking about “voluntary” compliance that is contrary to the good of society as a whole. Yes vaccines have side effects as does nearly every drug available over the counter or by prescription that many of us take on a daily basis. Parents who are attempting to live in a risk free environment are unenlightened and the politicians who pander to these individuals are as unenlightened and undeserving of serving the public in office.
4
You favor mandatory vaccination ...hepatitis vaccines for the high risk population?
Parents who choose not to vaccinate their children have chosen to place them at unnecessary risk. They place their own dogma ahead of their children's welfare and hence are not fit to be parents. Placing any child at unnecessary risk is shameful and should be unlawful.
3
So our own people should be forced to undergo vaccinations, and the foreign nationals who cross our borders carrying these infections have no screening or forced vaccinations? Sounds like a great plan for the Obama crew. No rights of personal choice for the American people, just for the foreign nationals who can bring any infection here they want.
6
Obama is bringing in measles now? I thought he was working with the drug cartels to bring in Ebola? Well, what is it? Ebola or measles? Can you clarify? Did the huge influx of children from Central America have Ebola or the measles? If they had Ebola we didn't see any space suits by the border. Did Rick Perry scare away all the nasty Ebola from our borders. If Rick really did that we owe him a big Thanks!
What's the solution? Get a gun carry license? Is it better to shoot any disease carrier than to shoot a vaccine needle?
Please tell us. Curious minds want to know.
What's the solution? Get a gun carry license? Is it better to shoot any disease carrier than to shoot a vaccine needle?
Please tell us. Curious minds want to know.
6
El Salvador had vaccination rates above 90% for the last 4 years, while Guatemala also had a rates above 90% but for the last 2 years. Stop with the xenophobia, por favor.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.IMM.MEAS/countries
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.IMM.MEAS/countries
6
“We’ve seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it’s connected to the vaccines. This person included. The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it.”
Barack Obama, 2007
Barack Obama, 2007
4
Wrong. "This person included" referred to an audience member. Not to himself. Read more carefully - that gem has been thoroughly debunked.
3
It is now 2015, last I checked. The statement was made three years before the study was debunked in 2010. And he has since said that science has proven it false.
2
In his brief comment, Charles from N.J. contributed a quote from then-Senator Obama: "We’ve seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it’s connected to the vaccines. This person included. The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it." Barack Obama, 2007
To reply to the Obama quote: In 2010, the Lancet retracted Wakefield's 1998 paper that suggested a link between autism and vaccines.
Here is a link to the New York Times story on the retraction:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/health/research/03lancet.html
Here is a brief chronology of the autism/vaccine controversy:
Published February 3, 2015 by Talking Points Memo
"A Brief History Of How People Got Duped By The Vaccine-Autism Myth"
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/vaccine-autism-myth-timeline
To reply to the Obama quote: In 2010, the Lancet retracted Wakefield's 1998 paper that suggested a link between autism and vaccines.
Here is a link to the New York Times story on the retraction:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/health/research/03lancet.html
Here is a brief chronology of the autism/vaccine controversy:
Published February 3, 2015 by Talking Points Memo
"A Brief History Of How People Got Duped By The Vaccine-Autism Myth"
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/vaccine-autism-myth-timeline
1
Utterly unbelievable!
First the clown parade of 2012 Republican would-be presidential candidates salute ignorance by agreeing (one lonely exception who soon got drummed out) to deny evolution, ditto for anthropomorphic warming of the planet, then casual shout outs about vaccines bringing on autism. Now we start all over again.
Can an island of ignorance be that warm and comfy a spot to so many Americans that public figures feel the need to play to them?
Science clarifies the world while significant numbers of otherwise privileged Americans simply wave away established knowledge to construct their own little world safe in denial.
First the clown parade of 2012 Republican would-be presidential candidates salute ignorance by agreeing (one lonely exception who soon got drummed out) to deny evolution, ditto for anthropomorphic warming of the planet, then casual shout outs about vaccines bringing on autism. Now we start all over again.
Can an island of ignorance be that warm and comfy a spot to so many Americans that public figures feel the need to play to them?
Science clarifies the world while significant numbers of otherwise privileged Americans simply wave away established knowledge to construct their own little world safe in denial.
6
To Mr. Paul:
On Children
Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable
On Children
Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable
8
It's great to read that again, seeing how it's past 4:20 my time.
2
This notion -- apparently popular among conservatives -- that public policy should accommodate "controversy" every time some group believes in some half-baked hypothesis is simply insane.
9
It is appalling when you have to ignore science and dumb down your beliefs to gain favor of your chosen electorate. It is a return to the Dark Ages. God help us all!
9
Since we require legal immigrants to prove that they either received the vaccine or show the antibodies that they did or survived measles, just require any American applying for a passport to do the same thing.
Why would we protect ourselves from some people from other countries and not apply the same standard to Americans returning from those countries with high levels of diseases?
Why would we protect ourselves from some people from other countries and not apply the same standard to Americans returning from those countries with high levels of diseases?
7
not in southern california- one of the measles hot spots where in many schools, immigrant kids have not been vaccinated- thanks to Jerry Brown.
3
These people simply do not have the right to burden others with their freedom of choice which inflicts harm and cost on others.
In the words of Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins."
In the words of Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins."
10
Leave our bodies alone! Just because you all love getting chemicals injected into your body doesn't mean people that think for themselves do. Wish you Edomites could just leave the rest of us alone. You always have to invade our beliefs, our nations, our bodies and inject your FEARS onto us. You guys are PRIMED for the RFID chips! Leave us ALONE!
Fine. I have no desire to be around you or your children. Since 95% of us do get vaccines, however and e you "love" to get polio, measles and whopping cough, you are the ones that must leave us alone. DO NOT use public transportation, fly, send your children to school, go to movies or supermarket. Just stay away. That way you will not have to be exposed to our FEARS and we will not have to be exposed to your unvaccinated bodies and sick minds.
16
Had to look up a translation for this one. Wikipedia says "The Edomites may have been connected with the Shasu and the Shufu".
Hokey Dokey. So whichever side you are talking about, are they getting vaccines? Tell them to.
Hokey Dokey. So whichever side you are talking about, are they getting vaccines? Tell them to.
1
So many facists here, incredible. Does the measles outbreak raise suspicion to anyone over the roughly 100,000 people who came over the border this summer who lived in warehouses for 4-6 weeks surrounded by hundreds of children at a time (further evidence provided by the epicenter being southern California) and who came from places where measles wasn't eradicated? We haven't had a serious measles concern in this country since 2000. Perhaps its not social policy (as parents by and large would vaccinate their children regardless), but this is secondary derivatives of other failed policies? Parental liberty for their children.
4
If your reference to "100,000 people" means people from Mexico and Central America, the measles vaccination rate in Mexico and Honduras (2013) was 89%, while the US rate was 91%. El Salvador has a 94% rate, Cuba has a 99% rate.
Gheez, Rwanda has a 97% measles vaccination rate.
The immunization rate data is available at http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.IMM.MEAS/countries
Gheez, Rwanda has a 97% measles vaccination rate.
The immunization rate data is available at http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.IMM.MEAS/countries
1
It's funny how some of the areas in the US that have the lowest vaccinations rates, the coastal regions of southern and northern California, and the Pacific Northwest, are not republican, but heavily democrat. These are the epicenters of the current anti-vax movement in the US, and to only talk about "skepticism of core conservative voters" for the republicans, but not talk about the anti-vaxxers on the left side of the spectrum as well shows the bias of the authors of this article.
5
For the millionth time, this is merely an article - by Times political reporters! - about the measles outbreak viewed through the prism of the GOP pre-primary.
A moment's search would take anyone to articles such as this:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/us/vaccine-critics-turn-defensive-o...
There isn't one single vaccine-related article encompassing every angle of this multi-faceted situation, nor should there be. Writing about this topic from multiple angles in multiple articles isn't bias, it's comprehensive coverage! It's not bias when one article is related to the subject as it connects to one group, whether political, social, ethnic, etc. It would only be bias, potentially, if ALL coverage was limited to the topic as it relates to one group, for example, to the exclusion and perhaps denigration of all others.
A moment's search would take anyone to articles such as this:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/us/vaccine-critics-turn-defensive-o...
There isn't one single vaccine-related article encompassing every angle of this multi-faceted situation, nor should there be. Writing about this topic from multiple angles in multiple articles isn't bias, it's comprehensive coverage! It's not bias when one article is related to the subject as it connects to one group, whether political, social, ethnic, etc. It would only be bias, potentially, if ALL coverage was limited to the topic as it relates to one group, for example, to the exclusion and perhaps denigration of all others.
3
Bias? Did you read the headline? It tells you what the article is about.
Did you read it?
Don't wait for the translation: YES or NO?
Did you read it?
Don't wait for the translation: YES or NO?
Yes, I read the entire article and way down at the bottom one little paragraph about how this "does not break entirely along right-left lines." There is a reason that this current measles epidemic started in California. And thinking this is a "republican issue" might make you and the NYT feel good, but will do nothing to increase the vaccination rates in coastal California and the Pacific northwest. Do you really think people in Portland, Oregon, where vaccination rates are terrible, listen to anything Christie or Rand say? I live in a town in southern California that leans heavily democratic and the vaccine rate at my kid's school is at a shameful 40%.
1
I have to roll my eyes at the people whose excuse for not vaccinating their children is that they don't want to put poisons and toxins in their children's bodies. Those "poisons and toxins" are the same ones their children will have in their bodies when they get diseases for which they should have been vaccinated.
If those parents lived in the middle of nowhere with no human contact other than other unvaccinated people, I would say go ahead and do what you want, but their behavior is putting other people at risk and I am not OK with that.
If those parents lived in the middle of nowhere with no human contact other than other unvaccinated people, I would say go ahead and do what you want, but their behavior is putting other people at risk and I am not OK with that.
7
The public health dept./ government want to embrace "herd immunity", because if the whole population gets vaccinated then the government can continue to allow foreign nationals entrance into the US without proper health screens. The current measles spike did not come from within the US....it was brought here by a foreign national who wasn't vaccinated. This is why TB still occurs in the US (even though we eliminated it), and lots of other infectious diseases as well. This new "forced" vaccine issue is because it is cheaper and easier for the government to force us all to get vaccines, than to provide the public health screens for all foreign nationals who enter the US.
But the health officials are not being totally honest with us. We have not been doing large numbers of vaccines (for large numbers of different infections) for very many years! This is a relatively new issue.....because the widespread availability and use of vaccines in this way is relatively new. What happens, over an entire lifespan, if individuals are given very large numbers of different vaccines? Does this ultimately compromise immunity? What about our immunity related to fighting diseases like cancer? Those studies have not been done yet, because it is all too new a subject. So there are no answers about those issues. How can we force people to have their children vaccinated with massive numbers of different vaccines, when we don't really know the cumulative effect this will have?
But the health officials are not being totally honest with us. We have not been doing large numbers of vaccines (for large numbers of different infections) for very many years! This is a relatively new issue.....because the widespread availability and use of vaccines in this way is relatively new. What happens, over an entire lifespan, if individuals are given very large numbers of different vaccines? Does this ultimately compromise immunity? What about our immunity related to fighting diseases like cancer? Those studies have not been done yet, because it is all too new a subject. So there are no answers about those issues. How can we force people to have their children vaccinated with massive numbers of different vaccines, when we don't really know the cumulative effect this will have?
2
Do you have a shred of factual information to substantiate any of this? The fact is that Mexico and most Central American nations have BETTER rates of vaccination than does the U.S. The entry of the measles strain (consistent with the trajectories over the past 15 years, since the CDC said measles in the U.S. was ESSENTIALLY eradicated) has been via legal U.S. entrants or citizens returning from abroad, and either unvaccinated or for whom the vaccine did not work effectively. Check out the CDC health surveillance reports to verify this, in between scanning the skies for black helicopters.
9
I am confused by this article. The big majority of "Anti-Vaxxers" are left leaning and somehow NY times turns it into a GOP bash?!
5
Those pandering and fear mongering for advantage are Republican presidential hopefuls. THAT makes it a GOP issue.
6
Did you read the stats in the article? It says that people identifying as Republican who are in favor of vaccinations fell in the last years to 65%, while the people identifying as Democrats are supporting it at 76%. Not too much to be confused about at this point. Update the files.
2
You know the story about throwing mud on a wall? What falls off the wall don't matter. What sticks gets reported.
That how the World Turns. Don't like it? Too bad.
That how the World Turns. Don't like it? Too bad.
"...Republicans who find themselves in the familiar but uncomfortable position of reconciling modern science with the skepticism of their core conservative voters."
How euphemistic. The "skepticism" of conservative voters? How about we dispensed with the niceties and call it what it really is - the proudly, willfully blind, self-styled ignorance of those voters?
How euphemistic. The "skepticism" of conservative voters? How about we dispensed with the niceties and call it what it really is - the proudly, willfully blind, self-styled ignorance of those voters?
6
"Republicans who find themselves in the familiar but uncomfortable position of reconciling modern science with the skepticism of their core conservative voters."
Here's a novel idea, and an easy solution. DON'T "reconcile" your position, state the FACTS. And be a LEADER! Educate your potential constituents, instead of encouraging and pandering to stupidity and willful ignorance.
Thank you Hillary Clinton: “The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork.”
It's really not that hard to state a known fact, is it Rand Paul, Chris Christie?
Here's a novel idea, and an easy solution. DON'T "reconcile" your position, state the FACTS. And be a LEADER! Educate your potential constituents, instead of encouraging and pandering to stupidity and willful ignorance.
Thank you Hillary Clinton: “The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork.”
It's really not that hard to state a known fact, is it Rand Paul, Chris Christie?
5
Memo to Rand Paul, who snapped "The state doesn't own the children. Parents own the children."
NO. NO they don't. Nobody "owns" anybody, even if a number of reactionary power-hungry white guys would like to own women, own children, and own slaves.
Parents don't own children. They may not sell them. They may not put them on the street for prostitution. They may not kill and physically mistreat them. They may not sacrifice them to demanding gods. They may not do a huge number of things, including experiment on them medically by withholding, on no rational basis, life-protecting treatments... such as vaccines.
But Rand Paul has certainly exposed the harsh core of republican ideology, if he honestly believes that children are property to be treated at another person's whim and caprice, so long as that person is legally given title as parent. FAUGH. Disgusting outmoded patria-potestas thinking. NO place in a modern democracy.
NO. NO they don't. Nobody "owns" anybody, even if a number of reactionary power-hungry white guys would like to own women, own children, and own slaves.
Parents don't own children. They may not sell them. They may not put them on the street for prostitution. They may not kill and physically mistreat them. They may not sacrifice them to demanding gods. They may not do a huge number of things, including experiment on them medically by withholding, on no rational basis, life-protecting treatments... such as vaccines.
But Rand Paul has certainly exposed the harsh core of republican ideology, if he honestly believes that children are property to be treated at another person's whim and caprice, so long as that person is legally given title as parent. FAUGH. Disgusting outmoded patria-potestas thinking. NO place in a modern democracy.
10
By one definition, a "free rider" is a person who takes advantage of a public benefit without paying his or her share of the cost. The anti-vaccination crowd are free riders. They want the benefit of widespread public immunization without actually undergoing it themselves. Another type of free rider is the person who won't pay for health insurance but takes advantage of emergency room that taxpayers and paying patients support. When I was young, I thought the Republican Party shared my antipathy toward free riders. My, how times change.
12
"Parents own their children". Is that an official policy position Mr. Paul?
3
I would like to rebut Mr. Paul. Parents DO NOT own their children!
4
Once again the New York Times leads the self-righteous witch-hunt against those who choose not to vaccinate their children. Are such parents criminal? Actually, all the real evidence points in the opposite direction. Did you know that numerous medical professionals oppose vaccination on medical grounds? Check out http://www.vaccinetruth.org/doctors_against_vaccines.htm. Did you know that vaccination routinely fails to stop the spread of measles because of the failure of vaccines (http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/2013-measles-outbreak-failing-vaccine-n...? Did you know that smallpox epidemics always broke out when and where vaccination rates were the highest? See Humphries' and Bystrianyk's “Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History,” where you can find the kind of meticulous and painstaking research that is criminally lacking in the Times' pieces on vaccination. The notion that there is a scientific consensus on the safety and efficacy of vaccines is false. The Times' recurrent repitition of this lie is socially irresponsible and morally unconscionable. I await the day when this newspaper's reporting on the topic rises to the same standard as on other subjects. Right now it is nothing but yellow journalism, and I fear greatly the social consequences. Public health has always been about clean air, clean water, good sanitation, healthy food and exercise, but we want to believe it comes out of a syringe or medicine bottle.
I looked up some of the so-called doctors on the website you refer to. One of them has had her license revoked; another is a chiropractor; and still another is a kind of odd homeopath practitioner, etc. Never has George Bernard Shaw been cited anywhere as an actual physician even when his quotes sound cute. He also called medical service a "murderous absurdity". And citing a website about green medicine, presumably about herbal medicine, seems a few millennia out of date.
Public health is not about exposing vulnerable people to easily preventable epidemics.
Public health is not about exposing vulnerable people to easily preventable epidemics.
9
For something more fact-based, you might wish to read Paul Offit's Autism's False Prophets and Do You Believe in Magic? Bystrianyk's work is long on vitriol and short on fact. He makes several sweeping statements about safety, lumps together "health professionals" by grouping chiropractors and naturopaths and accupuncturists with the small percentage of physicians opposed to vaccinations. On the other hand, Offit is an Infectious Disease specialist at U. Penn. Additionally, you need to familiarize yourself with the statistical concept of base rates. Smallpox outbreaks and vaccination programs were BOTH likely to be higher in the same areas, as these were also high density population areas (one of the characteristics of the spread of the disease). The issue isn't overall outbreak numbers but the base rate in a given area. Just as the base rate of vaccination is statistically and clinically significantly lower in areas where the recent measles outbreak has been highest (not, by the way, areas typically populated by undocumented persons).
2
Science and Nature always win in the end. Bogus websites spouting nonsense notwithstanding.
Summer 1957: I went to school with what I thought was a bad case of acne. It wasn't. It was the German Measles. I exposed a lot of my fellow students to the GM two weeks before finals. Needless to say a lot of students got the German Measles and taking finals was a miserable experience.
My siblings also came down with my "acne." The thing was, we had thought we were safe because we got vaccinated for the measles..,just not the German variety.
I think it's important to make sure that you get vaccinated. It saves a lot of misery for everyone.
My siblings also came down with my "acne." The thing was, we had thought we were safe because we got vaccinated for the measles..,just not the German variety.
I think it's important to make sure that you get vaccinated. It saves a lot of misery for everyone.
3
yes, totally different virus- now called "Rubella" to help clear up the confusion.
2
I didn't read anywhere in this article that the GOP dismissed the modern science behind vaccinations as suggested in the opening paragraph. I did see that some Republicans and some Democrats questioned the policy of "forced" vaccinations. Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with questioning scientists or public policy. In fact, I think it is dangerous to not question science and policies.
I would also respectfully point out that it is nearly a daily occurrence that medicine, approved by FDA scientists utilizing rigorous scientific standards, are pulled from the market due to safety concerns that apparently alluded the initial rigorous scientific standards. Just saying...
I would also respectfully point out that it is nearly a daily occurrence that medicine, approved by FDA scientists utilizing rigorous scientific standards, are pulled from the market due to safety concerns that apparently alluded the initial rigorous scientific standards. Just saying...
3
Some right wingers continue to blame immigrant children for measles in addition to Ebola. Fact: Most of the refugee children come from Central American countries such as Guatemala, Nicaragua, and El Salvador. According to the World Bank (2012), Guatemalan vaccination rates are 93%, in Nicaragua 99%, and El Salvador 93% (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.IMM.MEAS/countries). These are higher than in the United States.
As many have noted, measles has caused millions of deaths in the past with other complications including hearing loss, encephalitis, meningitis, hepatitis, and eye disorders among others.
It is basically child abuse to deny the protection of well-established vaccines to children and to risk the spread of the disease to others who are vulnerable for various reasons. This is anti-science ignorance at its worst.
As many have noted, measles has caused millions of deaths in the past with other complications including hearing loss, encephalitis, meningitis, hepatitis, and eye disorders among others.
It is basically child abuse to deny the protection of well-established vaccines to children and to risk the spread of the disease to others who are vulnerable for various reasons. This is anti-science ignorance at its worst.
8
in every state except Mississippi and West Virginia, parents can legally choose to not vaccinate their children against common illnesses before enrolling them in school.
The consequence of these vaccination loopholes has been the re-emergence of diseases like measles—an illness that had all but been eliminated in the U.S. in 2000.
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, there are over 100 reported cases in more than a dozen states, and the U.S. is "likely to see more cases."
Mississippi hasn’t seen a measles outbreak since 1992 and West Virginia, not since 1994. That’s because neither state permits children to enroll in kindergarten without getting their full roster of vaccines—no matter their parents’ personal or spiritual beliefs.
The anti-vaccine movement puts our most vulnerable populations at risk, including children under 12 months who simply cannot get vaccinated.
Public health must trump parental choice.
The consequence of these vaccination loopholes has been the re-emergence of diseases like measles—an illness that had all but been eliminated in the U.S. in 2000.
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, there are over 100 reported cases in more than a dozen states, and the U.S. is "likely to see more cases."
Mississippi hasn’t seen a measles outbreak since 1992 and West Virginia, not since 1994. That’s because neither state permits children to enroll in kindergarten without getting their full roster of vaccines—no matter their parents’ personal or spiritual beliefs.
The anti-vaccine movement puts our most vulnerable populations at risk, including children under 12 months who simply cannot get vaccinated.
Public health must trump parental choice.
8
I chose not to vaccinate. Here’s why:
I breastfed until my kids were 2 years old. It’s not a guarantee, but its benefit to a baby’s immune system is well-documented and used to be well-known…that is, until Enfamil and Similac co-opted the nation’s maternity wards.
I serve my kids regular meals of home-cooked, whole foods. You can’t fend off disease on a diet of processed junk.
I encourage my kids to eat dirt. Exposure to bacteria builds immunity, but kids would have to actually go outside first (i.e. leave the TV/iPad).
The vitriol and hysteria surrounding this issue are beyond belief. You’d think every American owed his/her life to vaccines. I believe vaccines work, but I also believe there’s a better way that doesn’t involve injecting your body with heavy metals. Of course, it would mean giving up a national addiction to cheap food and ubiquitous drugs, but it is an alternative. If that makes me an elitist, fine (for the record, I am not wealthy, far from it). But don’t accuse me of denying science. The human body, like the soil, is incredibly complex, and any doctor, politician, or pharmaceutical company who insists they’ve got it all figured out is committing an act of hubris. As long as alternatives exist, I will resist this Mafia-style assault on a person’s right to choose.
I breastfed until my kids were 2 years old. It’s not a guarantee, but its benefit to a baby’s immune system is well-documented and used to be well-known…that is, until Enfamil and Similac co-opted the nation’s maternity wards.
I serve my kids regular meals of home-cooked, whole foods. You can’t fend off disease on a diet of processed junk.
I encourage my kids to eat dirt. Exposure to bacteria builds immunity, but kids would have to actually go outside first (i.e. leave the TV/iPad).
The vitriol and hysteria surrounding this issue are beyond belief. You’d think every American owed his/her life to vaccines. I believe vaccines work, but I also believe there’s a better way that doesn’t involve injecting your body with heavy metals. Of course, it would mean giving up a national addiction to cheap food and ubiquitous drugs, but it is an alternative. If that makes me an elitist, fine (for the record, I am not wealthy, far from it). But don’t accuse me of denying science. The human body, like the soil, is incredibly complex, and any doctor, politician, or pharmaceutical company who insists they’ve got it all figured out is committing an act of hubris. As long as alternatives exist, I will resist this Mafia-style assault on a person’s right to choose.
2
You do realize the very "air" you breath has more toxic chemicals then the vaccines? Vaccines work and it is a proven fact, just like the sky is blue, and the earth is round.
6
CF:
Believe it or not, I am with you on everything, including the 'dirt eating' (seriously, I even use the same word), but I differ on the value of immunizations and definitely on the 'heavy metal' part. I would love to explain to you the benefit of immunizations and dispel the 'heavy metal' fears.
Please remember that the value of vaccinations was formally discovered in the 18th century, by an astute English country physician, although the concept originally came from China and the Middle East where it was used for smallpox prevention long before making it to England in the early 18th century. So, long before evil pharmaceutical companies were around. Heck, one could say, vaccination is as natural as home-cooked whole foods.
As for the heavy metals, exposure to those was a lot higher throughout human history that now during the vaccination era. Any child growing up 100 years ago would have been exposed to thousand times the amount of 'heavy metals' a complete set of vaccinations would entail.
I assume you are referring to Thimerosal as an antimicrobial agent in the vaccine. Most contact lens wearers are exposed to that on a regular basis, me included, for the last 40 years. I still feel fine.
Happy to answer any questions you might have.
Believe it or not, I am with you on everything, including the 'dirt eating' (seriously, I even use the same word), but I differ on the value of immunizations and definitely on the 'heavy metal' part. I would love to explain to you the benefit of immunizations and dispel the 'heavy metal' fears.
Please remember that the value of vaccinations was formally discovered in the 18th century, by an astute English country physician, although the concept originally came from China and the Middle East where it was used for smallpox prevention long before making it to England in the early 18th century. So, long before evil pharmaceutical companies were around. Heck, one could say, vaccination is as natural as home-cooked whole foods.
As for the heavy metals, exposure to those was a lot higher throughout human history that now during the vaccination era. Any child growing up 100 years ago would have been exposed to thousand times the amount of 'heavy metals' a complete set of vaccinations would entail.
I assume you are referring to Thimerosal as an antimicrobial agent in the vaccine. Most contact lens wearers are exposed to that on a regular basis, me included, for the last 40 years. I still feel fine.
Happy to answer any questions you might have.
1
All the things you do, like breastfeeding and home cooking meals, were the standard for raising a family until the first part of the 20th century, when infectious diseases were the main cause of death of children. Look at old grave stones!
And by the way, the great flu epidemic of 1917 killed preferentially young healthy people at the rate of more than 20% of the infected. My father was a survivor, who had scarring of the lungs as consequence.
And by the way, the great flu epidemic of 1917 killed preferentially young healthy people at the rate of more than 20% of the infected. My father was a survivor, who had scarring of the lungs as consequence.
3
Can anyone forget the horrifying image of Republicans chanting "Let Them Die!" during questiong of Ron Paul about health insurance during the last presidential primary debates? Is it any wonder that the state and federal levels conservatives cut funds for community and public health programs? Given their anti-science record and embrace of conspiracy theories, it comes as no surprise that they would endanger whole communities for the sake of the "freedom" of anti-vaxxer nut-jobs.
7
And come to think of it, Ron Paul owns Rand Paul, doesn't he?
1
Freedoms are restricted so soon as they impinge on others. You own your house and are free to do with it as you please, except you must not store flammable chemicals unsafely, or play loud music at nights, or use it to manufacture or sell illegal drugs, By the same reasoning, you're not free to put other people's children at risk of disease by not vaccinating your kids.
4
Vaccination was possibly the greatest medical breakthrough of the twentieth century. The fact that this article is titled "Measles Outbreak Proves Delicate Issue to GOP Field" is alarming. This shouldn't be a political issue at all.
6
Second greatest. Actually it started in the 18th. But the greatest health breakthrough came from disinfecting and filtering water supplies. Babies and children still die massively from diarrhea in areas without clean water. The largest increase in US life expectancy came from providing clean drinking water.
1
i remember someone telling me i had polio as a result of taking the vaccine...this is back in '64, but that doesn't mean i blocked my daughter from getting it. seriously think its better for parents to play doctor and have Ebola type disease to come back cuz every once in a while someone has a seizure?
3
The Republicans have become so reactionary in so many ways we have to remind ourselves that they grew up in the same century and country as the rest of us, beneficiaries of the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, the emergence of science and all the ways our lives have been extended and made happier and more secure by embracing well considered changes to more traditional ways of doing things.
Evaluating the risks of the side effects of vaccinations to the consequences of the infections is not easy to determine for the average person but it's pretty clear from a public health perspective. The consequences of bad outcomes are greater amongst the population of the unvaccinated as compares to the population of the vaccinated. Our propensity to rely upon recognizable patterns rather than reason, to imagine cause and effect relationships as significant without adequate confirmation and to be overly concerned about the worst case scenarios tends to make us poor forecasters of the risks in our lives. It takes time and patient examination and evaluations to make public policies which are better for the whole country.
Evaluating the risks of the side effects of vaccinations to the consequences of the infections is not easy to determine for the average person but it's pretty clear from a public health perspective. The consequences of bad outcomes are greater amongst the population of the unvaccinated as compares to the population of the vaccinated. Our propensity to rely upon recognizable patterns rather than reason, to imagine cause and effect relationships as significant without adequate confirmation and to be overly concerned about the worst case scenarios tends to make us poor forecasters of the risks in our lives. It takes time and patient examination and evaluations to make public policies which are better for the whole country.
4
A few months ago eveyone was in panic over Ebola, even though you cannot get Ebola in a subway, in a school, at a daycare or in a train station, but you can get the Measles in all those places. And for all those people who are against vaccines, it just goes to show that you can be so privileged that you’re underprivileged, so blessed with choices that you choose to be a fool, so “informed” that you’re misinformed.
9
In a Pew poll that sought to differentiate between the views of scientists and average Americans of a variety of issues, people were asked whether childhood vaccines ought to be required, or if instead it should be left up to parental choice.
What’s interesting here is that Pew provided a political breakdown of the results, and there was simply no difference between Democrats and Republicans. 71 % of members of both parties said childhood vaccinations should be required, while 26 % of Republicans and 27 % of Democrats said parents should decide. (Independents were slightly worse: 67 % said vaccinations should be required, while 30 % favored parental choice.)
What’s interesting here is that Pew provided a political breakdown of the results, and there was simply no difference between Democrats and Republicans. 71 % of members of both parties said childhood vaccinations should be required, while 26 % of Republicans and 27 % of Democrats said parents should decide. (Independents were slightly worse: 67 % said vaccinations should be required, while 30 % favored parental choice.)
5
Pretty much what I would have suspected. The breakdown would have been even more continuous if there had been the option 'parents should be strongly encouraged, but not forced'.
You may have looked at an older poll. The Pew research Center release a new one that was taken over the last summer. It was 71% (equal) for people who identified as Democratic or Republican in 2009. As this article notes, that has risen to 76% for Democrats while it has fallen to 65% for Republicans.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/02/young-adults-more-likely...
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/02/young-adults-more-likely...
1
So it's a choice - either the state or the parent "owns" the child!??
Really? In America, people are free and have rights of their own. This includes children. They are not property and are not owned, even by their parents. Parents do have rights but these are circumscribed; there are lots of things that the public won't let you do with your child (beat, starve, confine). For good reason.
Amazing that a Libertarian wouldn't understand this.
Really? In America, people are free and have rights of their own. This includes children. They are not property and are not owned, even by their parents. Parents do have rights but these are circumscribed; there are lots of things that the public won't let you do with your child (beat, starve, confine). For good reason.
Amazing that a Libertarian wouldn't understand this.
2
My granddaughters both got their measles vaccinations this year and within a couple of weeks, both began to walk.
Using the logic of the anti-vacine crowd, it is obvious that without the vaccine, neither would be walking.
I am sure we can find many children who did not get measles vaccine, and still do not walk at age 2 or 3, proving that without a measles vaccine, walking is often deferred or even prevented.
Assuming a cause and then looking for instances of an effect while ignoring all other outcomes and incident rates with and without the assumed cause is not science, or common sense, or right.
Using the logic of the anti-vacine crowd, it is obvious that without the vaccine, neither would be walking.
I am sure we can find many children who did not get measles vaccine, and still do not walk at age 2 or 3, proving that without a measles vaccine, walking is often deferred or even prevented.
Assuming a cause and then looking for instances of an effect while ignoring all other outcomes and incident rates with and without the assumed cause is not science, or common sense, or right.
6
As to Rand Paul & Chris Christie: the People of the U.S. through their elected representatives OWN ALL of the children.
I know this because I was compelled by law to register for the Draft at the time the Vietnam War was ongoing & many who registered were conscripted. So our government can, & has, taken many citizens to serve & that service has cost some their lives. The rationale for this is for the defense of ALL of us.
On a parallel note, government in the past used quarantine as a public health measure, which Gov Christie recently used on a medical worker who returned from the fight against Ebola. Clearly a deprivation of liberty for a limited time is a much lesser "taking" then sending one off to a war zone as a combatant.
So, no, parents do not get to opt their children out of the vaccinations required for the common good; it is a cost to being a citizen of the U.S. Parents CAN choose to emigrate with their children elsewhere if that is what is preferred to vaccinating their children. That will be far preferable to having their dear ones moving among us as hidden resorvoirs of communicable diseases.
I know this because I was compelled by law to register for the Draft at the time the Vietnam War was ongoing & many who registered were conscripted. So our government can, & has, taken many citizens to serve & that service has cost some their lives. The rationale for this is for the defense of ALL of us.
On a parallel note, government in the past used quarantine as a public health measure, which Gov Christie recently used on a medical worker who returned from the fight against Ebola. Clearly a deprivation of liberty for a limited time is a much lesser "taking" then sending one off to a war zone as a combatant.
So, no, parents do not get to opt their children out of the vaccinations required for the common good; it is a cost to being a citizen of the U.S. Parents CAN choose to emigrate with their children elsewhere if that is what is preferred to vaccinating their children. That will be far preferable to having their dear ones moving among us as hidden resorvoirs of communicable diseases.
3
Fascinating that the Republicans are making this an issue of choice and freedom. WHAT HYPOCRITES! These three quotes from this article sound like classic Pro Choice remarks.
"parents need to have some measure of choice"
"I think that’s a personal decision for individuals”
Asked about immunizations again later on Monday, Mr. Paul was even more insistent, saying it was a question of “freedom.” He grew irritated with a CNBC host who pressed him and snapped: “The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.”
"parents need to have some measure of choice"
"I think that’s a personal decision for individuals”
Asked about immunizations again later on Monday, Mr. Paul was even more insistent, saying it was a question of “freedom.” He grew irritated with a CNBC host who pressed him and snapped: “The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.”
5
For a public official like Rand Paul to say vaccines are "optional" is irresponsible. And people think he should be president?!? Would Rand Paul personally pay for the hospital costs of an unimmunized child ill with measles?
4
Conservatives? The people I know who are promoting no vaccinations are upper-class leftists who hold an entire host of beliefs that are counter to contemporary science.
The majority of people, irrespective of political leanings, understand the wisdom in childhood vaccination. This is not an issue to pin on either conservatives or libertarians.
The majority of people, irrespective of political leanings, understand the wisdom in childhood vaccination. This is not an issue to pin on either conservatives or libertarians.
4
Clearly you need to get out more.
1
This may have changed but last I knew, the NYC Dept. of Health and the Dept. of Education had a very specific list of mandatory immunization requirements for children about to enroll in any NYC school. For which they expect full compliance, thank goodness.
As for these extremists, right and left, I'd like to know how many of them were vaccinated as children, and what their own parents think about this 'issue'. I suppose many of these people are too young to have seen any childhood diseases among their family and peers. They don't know how awful it can be to have measles or whooping cough or scarlet fever, etc.; but I suspect they'd come running for help if that did happen to their child.
People can die of measles. Every family has stories about a lost child who succumbed to one of these 'childhood illnesses' -- in our family, two sides that only recently 'found' each other, each knew about the cousin who died of scarlet fever while a teen. The losses can be devastating. I suggest those parents who think vaccination should be a choice speak with their elders, hear the stories about what life was like before vaccinations were available, hear about the anxiety in knowing no one was protected. We're so fortunate today; but some would choose to throw this away? Protecting the public from those with contagious illness should be dealt with by the Dept. of Public Health; isolate them and protect others.
As for these extremists, right and left, I'd like to know how many of them were vaccinated as children, and what their own parents think about this 'issue'. I suppose many of these people are too young to have seen any childhood diseases among their family and peers. They don't know how awful it can be to have measles or whooping cough or scarlet fever, etc.; but I suspect they'd come running for help if that did happen to their child.
People can die of measles. Every family has stories about a lost child who succumbed to one of these 'childhood illnesses' -- in our family, two sides that only recently 'found' each other, each knew about the cousin who died of scarlet fever while a teen. The losses can be devastating. I suggest those parents who think vaccination should be a choice speak with their elders, hear the stories about what life was like before vaccinations were available, hear about the anxiety in knowing no one was protected. We're so fortunate today; but some would choose to throw this away? Protecting the public from those with contagious illness should be dealt with by the Dept. of Public Health; isolate them and protect others.
8
What a ridiculous article. A large number of the anti-vaccine people live in Marin County and on the Upper West Side. The President in 2008 was skeptical of vaccination as was Hillary. I guess they've evolved. What does Cuomo think? What does Elizabeth Warren Think? Highest vaccination rate is Mississippi - not too Republican. California allows lots of exemptions. Whose anti science here??
12
Christie and Paul, and most of the GOP, for starters. Want to talk about global warming? Or is that too much for one day? How about a woman's right to choose what is best for her own body? Yea, it's tough being anti-science, anti-fact unless one is an anti-intellectual. Denial ain't a river in Egypt.
2
I noted that too, but then I understood this is a delicate issue for GOP POLITICIANS, not voters. It's not a delicate issue for Democratic POLITICIANS, but it is for a small number of their voters. This article is about politicians, not voters. But you are right about the voters.
1
You've misquoted the president. And neither Rand Paul nor Chris Christie craves the UWS vote.
Who's anti-information here?
Who's anti-information here?
2
I cannot believe that this topic has become a subject of both scientific and political debate. If there is any proof of the failure of American education, this is it more than anything else. It proves that test scores are meaningless for evaluating educational success and achievement. No test score can predict people who think, act, and function like this as adults!
14
The anti-vaxers are free riders. The health of their children is dependent on others internalizing the social costs of vaccination. They externalize what should be an internal cost. They consume a social good and do not pay the cost. This is not freedom – this is pollution, freedom to pollute. They are not libertarians. They are pirates. They are thieves. And politicians who lend support to this theft of a valuable public good are scoundrels and charlatans.
10
Since almost all of the rest of us are vaccinated, this is an epidemic pretty much just for them, so if I were you I'd chill, although I guess the Hawks loss has got you on edge.
1
Rand Paul makes a repugnant assertion that parents own their children. Actually, no one owns a child.
Parents are the guardians of their children and have the responsibility and the obligation to do what is in their best interest, which includes having them vaccinating except when medically contraindicated.
Parents are the guardians of their children and have the responsibility and the obligation to do what is in their best interest, which includes having them vaccinating except when medically contraindicated.
12
Oh, come on, chill out! The 'owning' part is used metaphorically. Every time you say 'My son' or 'My daughter' or 'My wife' or 'My husband' you are saying pretty much the same thing. The word 'my' expresses ownership.
Rand Paul could also have said 'my children belong to me, not the government', it would still not stop you from nit-picking.
Face it as what it is: You don't like Rand Paul and you're grasping for anything, rational or not, to attack him.
Just read over many of the venomous comments on this page. Stripped of their targeted identities (Paul or Christie) and replaced with 'Obama' or 'Hilary', they could come from Ann Coulter or Liz Cheney.
The so-called enlightened left is not any better than the fanatical right. Ad hominem attacks abound on both sides of the political spectrum. We don't solve any real problems that way.
Rand Paul could also have said 'my children belong to me, not the government', it would still not stop you from nit-picking.
Face it as what it is: You don't like Rand Paul and you're grasping for anything, rational or not, to attack him.
Just read over many of the venomous comments on this page. Stripped of their targeted identities (Paul or Christie) and replaced with 'Obama' or 'Hilary', they could come from Ann Coulter or Liz Cheney.
The so-called enlightened left is not any better than the fanatical right. Ad hominem attacks abound on both sides of the political spectrum. We don't solve any real problems that way.
4
A direct quote is an "ad hominem" attack?
Honey, that's the foxnews talking.
Honey, that's the foxnews talking.
1
The word 'repugnant' is a qualifier that indirectly refers back to Paul's persona, so, yes, one can take the position that that qualifies as an 'ad hominem' attack, although certainly not the strongest one I've read.
But that's not what I was referring to. I meant a good number of the other comments that directly attack the persona of commenters with an opinion other than the mainstream.
As for Foxnews, I can't say anything to that. I don't watch it (or much TV for that matter, except for PBS).
But that's not what I was referring to. I meant a good number of the other comments that directly attack the persona of commenters with an opinion other than the mainstream.
As for Foxnews, I can't say anything to that. I don't watch it (or much TV for that matter, except for PBS).
1
Rand Paul "spaced out the vaccinations over a period of time" for his children. Why doesn't everyone do that?
Kids now receive three times the vaccines that I did. I don't see why they can't be spaced further apart, and only do the most critical ones for babies. Also, how bad is the risk for infants contracting Hep B?
Kids now receive three times the vaccines that I did. I don't see why they can't be spaced further apart, and only do the most critical ones for babies. Also, how bad is the risk for infants contracting Hep B?
4
Many people do space out the vaccines - as any practicing doctor can tell you.
2
The spacing of the vaccine might lead to increased vulnerability towards infections if the spacing is too large. This is a problem especially for children in childcare settings.
Only if you are pandering to the most know-nothing part of the electorate is measles prevention a 'delicate issue." Shame on Sen. Rand who should know better. Do what you want with your kids--but not when it threatens my kids and the whole community. This was settled 50 years ago. Why should the rest of us be held hostage to people who don't know how good they've got it? The reason they can experiment with their kids lives and not taking the measles vaccine is because it had all but been eradicated in this country. Let them see what happens to unvaccinated children and they'll change their tune.
10
Contrary to the views of Paul Rand, I don't think parents or the state "own" children. Children own themselves, but are under the control of their parents, and in some cases the state, to protect the interests of the children until they reach adulthood. The state will and should remove parents who abuse or neglect children. Refusing reasonable medical care which endangers a child is at least neglect, even if based on a sincere but clearly misguided perception of the best interests of the child.
6
The right to not vaccinate is no different than the right to smoke in public places like schools, restaurants, theaters etc. If we can interfere in individual rights when it comes to smoking (bad for public health), we should be able to apply the same logic to vaccinations.
You simply have NO RIGHT to ENDANGER other people's health.
You simply have NO RIGHT to ENDANGER other people's health.
10
As a smoker, I agree entirely about smoking in enclosed places or anywhere children are present, and I did long before bans were introduced. Thus, your point is, in my view, extremely well made. It is a sad irony that many of these anti-vaccination parents would scream bloody murder if someone lit up in front of their child. Too bad some politician isn't clever enough to make the point.
Outlawing parental involvement in decisions regarding the health of their children is a heavy decision for the government to make and would have serious repercussions for our freedoms.
What, in this case, politicians should do is reiterate the issues concerning parental prerogatives, but make crystal clear that they are in favor of parents, especially in this measles situation, deciding to vaccinate their children immediately and condemn them for decisions not to!
What, in this case, politicians should do is reiterate the issues concerning parental prerogatives, but make crystal clear that they are in favor of parents, especially in this measles situation, deciding to vaccinate their children immediately and condemn them for decisions not to!
1
This conversation would change pretty quickly if you substituted the word measles for polio. Sadly, this won't happen until one of these anti-vaxx people loses a child and becomes an activist. These comments a full of links and articles to support their position, but they require a full read through. Most people do not understand the rigorous testing that goes into the release of these vaccines. They also this is some kind of drug conspiracy on the part of Big Pharma. Vaccines are not a money maker for drug companies, they are often compelled to produce them because they are considered life saving drugs. Everyone is free to vaccinate or not to vaccinate, but they are not free to be educated in public schools or attend sports programs where the greater good is paramount to a few people who only read what they already believe. Enough already, don't put my kids in danger, because you made a personal choice to put your kids in danger.
10
I'm a doctor's daughter, used to ignorance in patients but not much downright idiocy. But then again, my father never examined Michele Bachmann. Public officials or those seeking office who, to curry favor with a few wing-nuts, make noises about childhood vaccinations common in the developed world being a matter of parental choice behave with manifest irresponsibility and should be shunned by the electorate.
12
To extreme individualists there can be nothing more important than the self. We've allowed them to creep into our consciousness because as consumers we want to be catered to. Markets become the measuring stick, selling trumps knowledge and curiosity. And what do we get out of it? A wholesale rearranging of how we view reality. Nothing is real except what can be justified at any given time, and tomorrow reality will be something else, depending on who is buying the product. Here we have a doctor putting "choice" above public health (but only this choice, not a woman's of course). It's astounding. "Do no harm" is for sale just like anything else. Our country will never be the same.
9
"I think that’s a personal decision for individuals" says Rand Paul but does he not see the oxymoron with the conservative position on abortion? It is a personal decision.
15
Regarding cases of "vaccine-induced autism" is the reciept of mutiple vaccines at the same time or a particular vaccine that was administered that caused the Autism.
1
Rand Paul: "The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.”
Is that like owning your car? Rather, parents have an obligation to their children and an obligation to society.
Is that like owning your car? Rather, parents have an obligation to their children and an obligation to society.
3
Give me a break. Please do not make this a Democrat vs. Republican issue. Most of the people in CA who didn't vaccinate are liberals!
3
But the candidates pandering to the anti-vaxxers are running for the Republican nomination. Explain.
8
That's because there are more liberals in California than conservatives. In general, liberals are less likely than conservatives to be non-vaccinaters. And they are much less likely to be vaccination-deniers.
The 400-lb Chris Christie is not exactly the ideal candidate to be giving advice on health issues. What is next GOP the-earth-is-flat presidential wannabees, no polio vaccines?
4
Unvaccinated people are a danger to everyone around them.
Being wilfully ignorant of the facts is no excuse for intentionally maintaining pockets of possible human vectors for the spread of contagious and destructive diseases.
I am sure that it would take only one lawsuit to prove that failing to protect children from damaging and contagious diseases because of misguided and prejudicial religious beliefs like this IS dangerous to health and public safety.
Being wilfully ignorant of the facts is no excuse for intentionally maintaining pockets of possible human vectors for the spread of contagious and destructive diseases.
I am sure that it would take only one lawsuit to prove that failing to protect children from damaging and contagious diseases because of misguided and prejudicial religious beliefs like this IS dangerous to health and public safety.
3
Am I the only one concerned by the last sentence, where Mr. Paul is quoted as saying parents "own" their children?
This is the real issue with vaccination. Obviously one should have the choice to vaccinate oneself or not. But parents do not "own" their children, they are merely responsible for making reasonable decisions on their behalf until said children are mature enough to do so for themselves. This is why refusing vaccination is so ethically wrong. Even ignoring what happens to every other child who is exposed to your disease-incubating progeny (and yes, diseases can mutate once they find a host), you've basically decided to place another human being in harm's way without their consent. The science is conclusive enough on this that it is the equivalent of "choosing" to make your infant child swim across the Hudson River because there is a chance the GW Bridge collapses while you're on it
This is the real issue with vaccination. Obviously one should have the choice to vaccinate oneself or not. But parents do not "own" their children, they are merely responsible for making reasonable decisions on their behalf until said children are mature enough to do so for themselves. This is why refusing vaccination is so ethically wrong. Even ignoring what happens to every other child who is exposed to your disease-incubating progeny (and yes, diseases can mutate once they find a host), you've basically decided to place another human being in harm's way without their consent. The science is conclusive enough on this that it is the equivalent of "choosing" to make your infant child swim across the Hudson River because there is a chance the GW Bridge collapses while you're on it
7
Why should it be a "choice" to endanger the lives of people around you by irresponsibility and negligence?
I am soon to be a father of twins. I will get my daughters vaccinated as soon as they are able, which will be a year after they're born. But in the meantime, the only defense they will have is non-exposure to the virus. By choosing not to get their children vaccinated, other parents will be increasing the risk to my children, despite whatever choices I make.
What right do those parents have to affect my family this way? It seems that some politicians have confused defensible liberty with irresponsible selfishness.
I am soon to be a father of twins. I will get my daughters vaccinated as soon as they are able, which will be a year after they're born. But in the meantime, the only defense they will have is non-exposure to the virus. By choosing not to get their children vaccinated, other parents will be increasing the risk to my children, despite whatever choices I make.
What right do those parents have to affect my family this way? It seems that some politicians have confused defensible liberty with irresponsible selfishness.
16
Hear that sound? It's the shuffling of feet as intelligent and knowledgeable former Rand Paul supporters shift their attention to other candidates who are less inclined to perpetuate myths about the linkage between various vaccines and numerous mental disorders.
9
Unfortunately, Paul's supporters tend to be younger people, and what the poll also reveals is that young people are more than twice as likely as seniors to believe that vaccination should be a choice, rather than an obligation. A whopping 41% of people aged 18-29 believe this, while only 20% over 65 do.
8
Matt, did you get that "information" from Red Alert Politics? I read it as to the right of Fox News. This is how the real discussion will get polluted. By "facts" presented as real. These are not real facts, just more of the propaganda spewed out by the Ted Cruz type of charlatans.
Not even a good try. Back to your drawing board for some more "facts."
Not even a good try. Back to your drawing board for some more "facts."
7
Of one thing you can be sure, you won't convince any of the vaccine naysayers to change their minds by insulting them, taking away their children away or otherwise forcing them to vaccinate their children.
Can some money can be found to hold a public and televised forum to show everyone that the science on this issue is indisputable? I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't cost as much as a fraction of a presidential campaign. Can an hour be found during primetime to educate parents and the general public on measles and the safety of vaccinations. Isn't this issue important enough for that? Or should we spend millions of taxpayer dollars finding ways to force people to do things that they clearly are set against against. What is the answer? Segregating them? Taking away their children? Arresting the parents? Would you put these parents and their children in an internment camp for your safety? How would YOU deal with it?
I think that some of the posters here and our politicians (supposedly leaders?) should be ashamed of themselves for the insulting and sarcastic comments being made about parents who are concerned that their children might become autistic from a vaccination. They are parents who fear for their children's safety. These parents are not the enemy. Treating them as such will only push them further away from the truth.
Clearly the science proves otherwise so let's show them in a national forum that everyone can see. Is it not important enough to make that effort?
Can some money can be found to hold a public and televised forum to show everyone that the science on this issue is indisputable? I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't cost as much as a fraction of a presidential campaign. Can an hour be found during primetime to educate parents and the general public on measles and the safety of vaccinations. Isn't this issue important enough for that? Or should we spend millions of taxpayer dollars finding ways to force people to do things that they clearly are set against against. What is the answer? Segregating them? Taking away their children? Arresting the parents? Would you put these parents and their children in an internment camp for your safety? How would YOU deal with it?
I think that some of the posters here and our politicians (supposedly leaders?) should be ashamed of themselves for the insulting and sarcastic comments being made about parents who are concerned that their children might become autistic from a vaccination. They are parents who fear for their children's safety. These parents are not the enemy. Treating them as such will only push them further away from the truth.
Clearly the science proves otherwise so let's show them in a national forum that everyone can see. Is it not important enough to make that effort?
5
You are obviously a compassionate person. And I am too when it is warranted. But it is hard to feel compassion when someone's hardship stems from ignorance and magical thinking. As pointed out in the video, a study was done in which skeptical parents were presented with information showing vaccines to be safe. Most of the parents changed their minds about the safety of vaccines but then inexplicably stated they were LESS likely to vaccinate their children despite being convinced of their safety. Unfortunately, the only thing that may have a chance of actually changing their behavior is to have their children become seriously ill or die. Otherwise, they have apparently become so hardened in their thinking that they are beyond changing their minds. So for the benefit of everyone else, isolating and sanctioning these individuals may be the best solution. If you do not want to participate in modern society, fine. Don't bring your children to the doctor if they get sick to avoid getting everyone else sick. Besides, the doctor will just want to give them toxic unnatural poisons to cure them. Homeschool you children, live in a colony of like-minded people, use essential oils to cure your child's whooping cough or measles, and use homeopathic 'medicines' to build your children's immune systems. But stay away from the rest of us so we do not fall victim to your hysterical, irrational behavior.
A voice of sanity! Thanks for speaking up. That's the way we should be dealing with each other, not through venomous insults. The latter are a sure way to drive these parents further away and dig in.
This is nothing a rational conversation can't fix.
This is nothing a rational conversation can't fix.
It's important to demonstrate that the anti-vaxxers are kooks - to quarantine them, if you will.
If you persuade some of them to change their minds, that's fine, but this is not the goal.
If you persuade some of them to change their minds, that's fine, but this is not the goal.
Those who are venomously opposed to vaccines are clearly relying on Mickey Mouse science. How else to explain the current outbreak of measles-that scourge all but vanquished from this country- that began in Disneyland? By flouting the medical consensus they are compromising the safety of the community.
While our current crop of politicians debate the vaccine issue, it's well worth remembering a time when vaccinations were not only embraced but each new vaccine was viewed as a victory for mankind. The polio vaccine that saved generations of children from the ravages of that disease, including my own, is one such modern miracle.
http://envisioningtheamericandream.com/2015/02/03/the-validity-of-vaccines/
While our current crop of politicians debate the vaccine issue, it's well worth remembering a time when vaccinations were not only embraced but each new vaccine was viewed as a victory for mankind. The polio vaccine that saved generations of children from the ravages of that disease, including my own, is one such modern miracle.
http://envisioningtheamericandream.com/2015/02/03/the-validity-of-vaccines/
7
So the same people who wanted to quarantine people traveling from west Africa because of the threat of ebola--which is not easily transmitted--want American parents to be able to choose whether to vaccinate against measles--which is highly contagious--but not quarantine the children unvaccinated by choice who may pose a threat. Hmmmm
18
I remember Polio from my childhood, and the scourge it was. Swimming pools everywhere were often closed during the summer months because of the fear of the disease. And who can forget the images of children and adults in iron lungs? To suggest that inoculation be optional is scandalous, and puts us all at risk.
15
About time to revisit fluoridation of the public water supply.
The sad thing is not that people are ignorant, but that advantaged people are willfully ignorant.
The sad thing is not that people are ignorant, but that advantaged people are willfully ignorant.
6
Can someone in the world of over-hyped media and politics please divide 100 by 320 million, and then tell me why measles is even an issue? 100 cases and the yappers want the federal government to step in? What a joke. Why not make every person get a flu shot, subject to time in federal prison? At least the flu is a significant disease.
Remember, these are the same people who told you ebola would destroy America, and who constantly yap that global warming will destroy the world. What a bunch of witch doctors!
Remember, these are the same people who told you ebola would destroy America, and who constantly yap that global warming will destroy the world. What a bunch of witch doctors!
5
"... and why measles is even an issue?"
Why? This highly communicable disease called measles is an issue - a very serious threat to public health!!!
To even suggest that measles is anything else is an obvious sign of crass ignorance of personal and public health.
Why? This highly communicable disease called measles is an issue - a very serious threat to public health!!!
To even suggest that measles is anything else is an obvious sign of crass ignorance of personal and public health.
6
My friend, you don't seem to have the slightest sense of proportion. There are much more dangerous threats that deserve your hysterical attention. I suggest ebola, mad cow disease, H1N1, and shark bites as possible causes.
1
Sir or Madam,
"... hysterical attention."???? That is simply your opinion; you are entitled to that. I have my own opinion regarding this medical issue based on personal knowledge of polio, whooping cough, measles, ...
Measles does represent a serious threat to personal and public health. But let me be more specific regarding locale - a serious threat in the USA (Los Estados Unidos). But it is a threat which can be eliminated, or at least minimized, by the proper vaccination of the American population.
To suggest that measles does not represent a serious threat to personal and public health is an obvious sign of crass ignorance and/or naivete.
"... hysterical attention."???? That is simply your opinion; you are entitled to that. I have my own opinion regarding this medical issue based on personal knowledge of polio, whooping cough, measles, ...
Measles does represent a serious threat to personal and public health. But let me be more specific regarding locale - a serious threat in the USA (Los Estados Unidos). But it is a threat which can be eliminated, or at least minimized, by the proper vaccination of the American population.
To suggest that measles does not represent a serious threat to personal and public health is an obvious sign of crass ignorance and/or naivete.
My daughter, now 41, has had Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis since she was 2 1/2. Despite the name, it rarely goes away. When she was 25, it cost her a knee, and she had a TKR. People who have had a joint replaced are always kept immunosuppressed to prevent rejection. She was a highly respected science teacher in one of New York City's elite private schools, but since schools should properly be called "disease transfer nexi" because parents today send their children off to school no matter their physical state, she often got sick. Finally, she could not take it anymore and went on disability.
At least she did not have to contend with ignorant parents who refused to immunize their children, taking the disease transfer issue to a new level. I think laws should be passed to make it illegal for non-immunized children to attend school outside the home. That way, they can only infect each other.
At least she did not have to contend with ignorant parents who refused to immunize their children, taking the disease transfer issue to a new level. I think laws should be passed to make it illegal for non-immunized children to attend school outside the home. That way, they can only infect each other.
15
Home-schooled children visit museums, zoos and go to movie theatres, often as a group organized by a home-schooling association.
Being home-schooled keeps them out of school, but not other public places.
Being home-schooled keeps them out of school, but not other public places.
3
What's next? A 'serious' discussion about whether the earth is flat?
26
Rand Paul is not the first physician turned Republican Senator to speak irresponsibly about medical matters. Remember when then Senate majority leader Bill Frist (R-TN) "diagnosed" Terri Schiavo via videotape, and declared not only was she NOT in a persistent vegetative state, but supported state and federal intervention (as did another putative Republican presidential candidate) to ensure Ms. Schiavo received tube feeding and any other "necessary" extraordinary means to "preserve her life", despite the avowed and adjudicated wishes of her husband. I guess it's only a matter of personal choice when the issue agrees with the most conservative and science-denying contingent of the electorate. Senator Paul's baseless statements about the MMR causing "Mental disorders", Governor Christie's declaration that parental choice about vaccinations should be the rule of the day and the willful pandering to those most antipathetic to science, and public health are a disgrace, but they should stand them in good stead in their respective primary contests.
10
When your actions put the majority at risk, there is no 'freedom to choose"
There is a reason, you don't have the freedom to choose to drink and drive.
There is a reason, you don't have the freedom to choose to drink and drive.
8
If these politicians want to support "parental choice" with regard to vaccinations, then give public school districts the right to refuse to enroll any child lacking vaccinations and require that all school employees have them.
7
Because the odds of catching measles after exposure is 90%, and
infants must be at least 6 months before they can be vaccinated, there could
be a very real risk to infants in daycare and public spaces.
infants must be at least 6 months before they can be vaccinated, there could
be a very real risk to infants in daycare and public spaces.
10
Amazing how quickly "pro-choice" advocates flip when the subject changes from killing unborn babies to vaccinations.
Parents have a right to choose when it comes to medical decisions for their children. The possible side-effects of vaccinations are well-known and publicised by the CDC.
If your child is vaccinated then obviously you have nothing to fear.
Parents have a right to choose when it comes to medical decisions for their children. The possible side-effects of vaccinations are well-known and publicised by the CDC.
If your child is vaccinated then obviously you have nothing to fear.
4
No you are wrong. No vaccine is 100% effective, and viruses mutate when they spread, rendering vaccines less effective.
6
Let's have the name, please, of one "pro-choice advocate" who is on the record as anti-vax.
Just one. With a link to the quote.
I will wait here for you. Good hunting.
Just one. With a link to the quote.
I will wait here for you. Good hunting.
2
All infants are vulnerable until the reach the age at which they can be vaccinated. They should not be placed at the mercy of the ignorant anti-vaxxers.
7
The GOP's ignorance on this is inexcusable. All they are doing is feeding into people's misunderstandings of the purpose of vaccinations and how they work. Chris Christie's initial statement shows exactly how self serving his "opinions" are. The same can be said of Rand Paul, himself a physician. Given this stance on vaccines, it's no wonder that the GOP sees nothing wrong with companies polluting the environment. It's the company's choice just like it's our "choice" to live where there is pollution (even though we may have no choice).
Years ago parents were relieved to read or hear about vaccines against polio, smallpox, measles, mumps. These diseases left people crippled, scarred, infertile, or dead. I doubt that any parent would want to go back to the days when polio was rampant, when measles could run through an entire school system or worse. If you as a parent think that you are protecting your child by not vaccinating him that's fine. However, consider the fact that if your child has measles or chicken pox he can infect someone whose immune system is still developing or is compromised or is pregnant. In this day and age when we know how to protect against these diseases not vaccinating because it's against your personal beliefs or you feel your child has a strong immune system is ridiculous. That's the same as saying that drunk driving is fine because most people make it home okay. It's selfish.
Years ago parents were relieved to read or hear about vaccines against polio, smallpox, measles, mumps. These diseases left people crippled, scarred, infertile, or dead. I doubt that any parent would want to go back to the days when polio was rampant, when measles could run through an entire school system or worse. If you as a parent think that you are protecting your child by not vaccinating him that's fine. However, consider the fact that if your child has measles or chicken pox he can infect someone whose immune system is still developing or is compromised or is pregnant. In this day and age when we know how to protect against these diseases not vaccinating because it's against your personal beliefs or you feel your child has a strong immune system is ridiculous. That's the same as saying that drunk driving is fine because most people make it home okay. It's selfish.
20
Measles is not even in the same league as polio...why do you have to treat all vaccinations as the same?
2
Because it is even more contagious than polio and because the endangerment of infants, that are too young to be immunized!
1
Delicate Issue? Is the health of our children a delicate issue instead of being a major issue?
7
This is yet another Republican non-issue. Parents in fact do have a say in whether their children get immunized. There are immunization exemptions for school age children due to medical grounds or religious beliefs in all states. Interestingly, in the demonized “liberal” state of California parents can also opt out their children due to personal beliefs. Not so in Mr. Paul’s Kentucky or Mr. Christie’s NJ where a parent can opt out based on medical or religious bases only. So, it seems in this case Mr. Paul and Christie are much more aligned with California than their own home states.
1
It is very easy to consider children invincible when the society has not seen the diseases for couple of decades. There is no debate on vaccination in 3rd world countries where infant and child mortality are big issues. How will the skeptics react if there are some cases deaths/disability of US children?
9
These idiots want all the privileges of living in a civil society, and none of the responsibilities.
You may personally believe that toddlers are excellent drivers, but that doesn't mean you have the right to say "drive, kid!" and send them on their way. Just as a parent would be held criminally responsible for the damage done by mini-Andretti, they should be equally culpable if their unvaccinated child spreads a completely preventable illness to an infant, or an immunocompromised person.
Until someone develops a vaccine for stupidity, states need to repeal their personal belief exemptions, or we'll continue to see these previously eradicated diseases spread.
You may personally believe that toddlers are excellent drivers, but that doesn't mean you have the right to say "drive, kid!" and send them on their way. Just as a parent would be held criminally responsible for the damage done by mini-Andretti, they should be equally culpable if their unvaccinated child spreads a completely preventable illness to an infant, or an immunocompromised person.
Until someone develops a vaccine for stupidity, states need to repeal their personal belief exemptions, or we'll continue to see these previously eradicated diseases spread.
22
A vaccine such as you wish would have to be given universally, definitely!
The idea that we are even discussing this in 2015 is outrageous. The proof is in the millions of vaccinations that have been given over theses many years.
15
“The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.”
Ah, children as chattel - similar to the belief of many Republicans that wives are the property of their husbands.
I agree with quite a few things that Rand Paul says, but the idea that children are the property of parents, and their lives can be put at risk at the whim of their parents, grates on me.
Parents have a right to make many decisions for their kids, but they don't have the right to intentionally place them in harm's way.
Ah, children as chattel - similar to the belief of many Republicans that wives are the property of their husbands.
I agree with quite a few things that Rand Paul says, but the idea that children are the property of parents, and their lives can be put at risk at the whim of their parents, grates on me.
Parents have a right to make many decisions for their kids, but they don't have the right to intentionally place them in harm's way.
16
Whenever there is a scientific component to a public policy issue, the GOP fumbles it.
I await the lawsuits by the parents of immune-suppressed children against the parents of unimmunized childtrf who have transmitted their infections. Lets have this out in court.
I await the lawsuits by the parents of immune-suppressed children against the parents of unimmunized childtrf who have transmitted their infections. Lets have this out in court.
13
By 2010, the U.S. Court of Claims had awarded nearly $2 billion dollars to vaccine victims for their catastrophic vaccine injuries, although two out of three applicants have been denied compensation.
4
Provide a link to support this.
4
Thank Reagan. He set up the vaccine injury compensation program to shield drug companies from lawsuits. There's $3.5 billion of taxpayer money in that fund. Not a dime from the drug companies who screw up.
4
If what you say is true then this would speak to the broken medical malpractice laws in our country much, much more than any concern about vaccine safety.
3
My fear is that people who forgo vaccinating their children, and then let their children just get measles or mumps (or rubella too?) and "wing it," will affect the viruses. Viruses can mutate. Also, these illnesses can have serious effects in some cases. I think health-care professionals, your doctors and nurses, play an important role in educating these parents about why they should vaccinate. Fear is the barrier here. Knowledge conquers fear.
6
Should I vote for a president who does not believe in vaccines, global warming, nor evolution? It is 2015 A.D. in case some people forget.
22
How about a president who singlehandedly reversed decades of progress by ignoring the southern border? Aren't you just a little curious where the virus came from or do you think it just spontaneously popped into existence?
2
Decades of progress? What a joke!
Obama has done more for a secure border, deportations than any other administration. Hands down!
jacobi, why don't you stop beating around the bush and say that Obama and his illegal Mexicans are bringing the measles into America?
Are you afraid of what we might say? Maybe.....
Obama has done more for a secure border, deportations than any other administration. Hands down!
jacobi, why don't you stop beating around the bush and say that Obama and his illegal Mexicans are bringing the measles into America?
Are you afraid of what we might say? Maybe.....
9
The Obama administration deported a record 438,421 unauthorized immigrants in fiscal year 2013, continuing a streak of stepped up enforcement that has resulted in more than 2 million deportations since Obama took office, newly released Department of Homeland Security data show. - Pew Research
And yes, there is still a huge problem with undocumented persons in this country, and who knows how many of those people are not vaccinated. So, your answer is to NOT vaccinate ?
And yes, there is still a huge problem with undocumented persons in this country, and who knows how many of those people are not vaccinated. So, your answer is to NOT vaccinate ?
4
On this issue, I would recommend that Obama remain silent. Anything he says, the right urges their followers to do the opposite. I can see Republicans advocating for no one to vaccinate just because Obama said it's the right thing to do.
5
Politicians like Rand Paul, MD and Chris Christy are not uneducated idiots. They certainly know the facts about MMR and other health policy issues. What is disturbing is the lengths they will go to to pander to the un-educated libertarian voters (on both sides of the aisle).
The problem the country faces is that "Politicians" feel getting elected is more important than doing the right thing.
The problem the country faces is that "Politicians" feel getting elected is more important than doing the right thing.
8
The "freedom to choose" argument in the context of vaccines against disease is a red-herring argument, plain and simple, and it doesn't carry sufficient merit to be taken seriously. If it were true, for example, that the vaccines actually harmed children or that they were seldom effective, then it might make sense to allow a parent to choose whether or not to vaccinate. However, the evidence is overwhelmingly clear; vaccines are safe and effective, and any evidence to the contrary is either untrue or has been discredited on multiple occasions. Moreover, it is abundantly clear that the only way vaccines work is if everyone can benefit from herd immunity. This is scientific fact, not opinion.
The only reason most parents choose not to vaccinate their children is because of unfounded fear and/or ignorance, or a personal belief in something that isn't proven (god). There are few times, especially in America, when the good of the many should trump individual liberty. This is one of them. Childhood vaccinations should be a mandatory and compulsory requisite for all Americans.
The only reason most parents choose not to vaccinate their children is because of unfounded fear and/or ignorance, or a personal belief in something that isn't proven (god). There are few times, especially in America, when the good of the many should trump individual liberty. This is one of them. Childhood vaccinations should be a mandatory and compulsory requisite for all Americans.
6
Personal belief triumps over sciece everyday. One form of it is called "religion" and is as debilitating an infection to the well being of society as measles is to a child.
7
This issue seems to cut across the political spectrum. By and large, I think it's liberal, privileged folks in California - the same folks who trust the science on climate change - who choose not to trust the science on vaccinations. The GOP politicians are the consistent group: they're always willing to ignore the science in exchange for votes or campaign contributions or both.
We faced this question when I served as the head of the board of a private school. We drew a bright line: if you want to attend our school, get your kids vaccinated.
We faced this question when I served as the head of the board of a private school. We drew a bright line: if you want to attend our school, get your kids vaccinated.
10
In the October 19, 2012 issue of its Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, the CDC estimated over 12,000 children (under age 19) die each year from unintended, accidental injuries – tragically, most of them preventable.
What was NOT noted in that report, nor found in ANY other government literature, are these alarming statistics: an estimated 59.8% of these children have received both doses of the MMR vaccine. An estimated 85.1% have received the first MMR dose.
If you think 59.8% is a bad number, 85.1% is staggeringly worse.
(The incontrovertible math: about 63.0% of all US children are between 7 and 19 years old, about 89.6% are aged between 2 and 19 years, and about 95% of all kids get the MMR.)
Math and science do not lie. Estimates clearly show that over 85% of all children who die each year of tragic and mostly preventable accidents have received at least one dose of the MMR vaccine.
Presenting every new parent with these alarming facts should be mandated – otherwise, how will he or she ever be able to make an informed decision?
If we don’t do something soon, this scourge will never be stopped.
2
But what, pray tell, in those numbers leads you to believe there is a connection between the "tragic, mostly preventable" fatal injuries and the children having received one or both MMR vaccinations???
All I can infer from your statement is that:
X number of children die/year due to accidental injury
X number of said children have received one dose of MMR; and
X number of said children have received two doses of MMR.
What are you saying ties it all together??? I'm not seeing the connection, if you are alleging or theorizing about one....I'm seeing facts and statistics that aren't logically a cause-effect type of relationship.
All I can infer from your statement is that:
X number of children die/year due to accidental injury
X number of said children have received one dose of MMR; and
X number of said children have received two doses of MMR.
What are you saying ties it all together??? I'm not seeing the connection, if you are alleging or theorizing about one....I'm seeing facts and statistics that aren't logically a cause-effect type of relationship.
12
To I just trudge: I am amused, but I predict big Poe's Law effects on this post.
1
He is being facetious.
So panic got completely out of control with Ebola, , and the same governor who quarantined a woman who MAY have been exposed to Ebola is rationalizing not getting children vaccinated for measles? Sounds like we need a Measles Czar. This level of ignorance is what is sending this nation backward in time.
12
Paul's implication that parents "own" their children, and therefore have every right to subject them to a significant risk of sickness or death, is horrifying. But we should thank him. He is taking the right-wing libertarian idea that "liberty" means unfettered control over private property to its logical conclusion. This ideology is extremist and absurd and it means that the most ignorant among us will have complete freedom to make the rest of us sick. The fact that Paul is a serious candidate for the Republican nomination tells you everything you need to know.
4
The premise of this article is incredibly biased: anti-vaxxers exist on both extremes of the political spectrum. The US portion of the movement itself started with wealthy Californians and correlates well with the homeopathic all-natural paleo diet Whole Foods crowd; the largest population of infected children from this latest outbreak is in Orange County.
At least in the case of Republicans, their opposition is grounded in the fears of big government instead of the healing power of magic water.
At least in the case of Republicans, their opposition is grounded in the fears of big government instead of the healing power of magic water.
4
Orange County was the home of "B-1 Bob" Dornan. Its daily newspaper is the conservative Orange County Register. It's no Berkeley, if that's what you're getting at.
1
The article is about Republican OFFICIALS stoking the dangerous anti-vaccine hysteria. And yes, it is ONLY Republican officials.
1
The closing lines of this article could not be more revealing: "Parents own the children." This is a debate about patriarchy and property rights. Apparently in the view of vaccination opponents, the world belongs to men who own things. The best interests of the children and the interests of a public that would bear the harms of a preventable epidemic don't weigh much on the scale against ownership rights and freedom to do as you wish with your property. While you're at it, why not start a fire in your yard and burn your neighbors' houses down?
1
Perhaps someone could ask Dr. Paul whether the state has the right to require you to buckle your young children into car seats.
12
If anything, this debate displays the true intellectual bankruptcy of anything like a libertarian philosophy. Because we live in the world, we are forced to interact with one another and thereby we have an impact upon one another. It is an unavoidable consequence of not living alone on a desert island or on Mars. Not vaccinating your child is no more an act of conscience than purposely pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere because you believe they don't create climate change. Your "freedom" affects me and my family and thereby I should have a say in matter.
Anybody who tells you anything else is selling something.
Anybody who tells you anything else is selling something.
7
Conspicuous by its absence in the GOP is a leader in the true sense of the word. There is not one of them who will stand up and say anything contrary. We saw where that got us with W. Bush/Cheney and all their yes men telling them what it was they wanted to hear. Instead of acting like the Earth is flat to appease people who obviously don't know better why don't you stand up for what is right?.
1
If it's necessary to chuck science out the window in order to be considered a real Republican, why limit it to the science on climate change? We want consistency in our politicians, right? Next thing they'll be telling us is that we get babies from under a cabbage leaf.
6
Gov Christie's philosophy of virology: Parents get to choose about the highly contagious measles but he will enforce quarentine on someone exposed but not infected with the much harder to catch Ebola virus. -Lots of ignorant politics; not much critical thinking. BTW don't forget about the "R" in the MMR vaccine. Ever see what happens to a fetus when the unprotected mother contracts Rubella- horrific!
13
Note the locations of the largest outbreaks and the proximity to the Mexican border.
1
Yes, but there's a high vaccination rate in Mexico. Vaccine deniers are extremely rare in that country. So the children in Mexico are probably safe. But thanks for your concern.
Oh, or were you suggesting something else?
Oh, or were you suggesting something else?
7
Are you already forgetting the influx of children from South America? Tens of thousands in 2014 a result of Obama's DACA? Isn't it just a bit of a coincidence that less than a year later we have this outbreak? You do realize that the virus doesn't just spontaneously pop into existence because some folk are not immunized?
So even if this measles did originate in Mexico, what bearing does that have on whether we should vaccinate?
Even if your absurd theory is correct, that's just another reason why we should all protect ourselves: we don't live in a bubble. People come here from other countries, and people here travel to other countries.
Even if your absurd theory is correct, that's just another reason why we should all protect ourselves: we don't live in a bubble. People come here from other countries, and people here travel to other countries.
3
These Repubs can hardly be more confused.
Parents must have "free choice" to vaccinate or not.
Women have no choice about their own bodies.
It should come as no surprise that the leaders of the GOP, Boehner and McConnell, are reduced to walking around in circles, dribbling unintelligible speech and constantly bumping into each other.
There you are America. The vaunted GOP majority! Ready to Serve! NOT!!
Parents must have "free choice" to vaccinate or not.
Women have no choice about their own bodies.
It should come as no surprise that the leaders of the GOP, Boehner and McConnell, are reduced to walking around in circles, dribbling unintelligible speech and constantly bumping into each other.
There you are America. The vaunted GOP majority! Ready to Serve! NOT!!
13
Many people discuss this as though it's a question of moral absolutes, of life and death. 'How dare you put other children at risk!' but just how serious is the risk today?
Was Rick Perry doing a public service when, from deep in Merck's pocket, he attempted to mandate Gardasil for all Texas schoolgirls? The MMR-Autism link has long been debunked, but there have been severe reactions against the HPV vaccine, up to and including death. Scientific studies and FDA approval can be bought and paid for, and nowhere is the confirmation bias stronger than in clinical trials where fortunes are made and lost with the stroke of a pen.
A responsible citizen should be more concerned with having a vigorous, transparent debate. This means taking a closer look at the details and making a conscious decision which vaccines are genuinely in the public interest, resisting the urge to lump everything together under the unassailable banner of Science.
As a thought experiment: go through the comments and replace "Science" with "Bible" every time someone refers to it as incontrovertible.
Example: President Obama (voted for him twice, but this)
"I understand that there are families that, in some cases, are concerned about the effect of vaccinations. The [Bible] is, you know, pretty indisputable."
Science is a better starting point, but you cannot disregard the key principles of self-evaluation and correction or you risk succumbing to the same intellectual pitfalls of religious fundamentalism.
Was Rick Perry doing a public service when, from deep in Merck's pocket, he attempted to mandate Gardasil for all Texas schoolgirls? The MMR-Autism link has long been debunked, but there have been severe reactions against the HPV vaccine, up to and including death. Scientific studies and FDA approval can be bought and paid for, and nowhere is the confirmation bias stronger than in clinical trials where fortunes are made and lost with the stroke of a pen.
A responsible citizen should be more concerned with having a vigorous, transparent debate. This means taking a closer look at the details and making a conscious decision which vaccines are genuinely in the public interest, resisting the urge to lump everything together under the unassailable banner of Science.
As a thought experiment: go through the comments and replace "Science" with "Bible" every time someone refers to it as incontrovertible.
Example: President Obama (voted for him twice, but this)
"I understand that there are families that, in some cases, are concerned about the effect of vaccinations. The [Bible] is, you know, pretty indisputable."
Science is a better starting point, but you cannot disregard the key principles of self-evaluation and correction or you risk succumbing to the same intellectual pitfalls of religious fundamentalism.
3
Another stupid stance by right wingers..... they will do and say anything just to pander to the stupid and ill-informed. I cannot believe we are having this vaccine discussion in the 21st century. Vaccines have been working since Jonas Salk and the public has wisely accepted them to prevent disease. Now the government conspiracy idiots want to run amok and spread disease because they have never had to have kids die of polio, measles, etc. Read a history book and get a clue as to what you're unleashing. The saying is so true- those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it.
4
I have only one question to ask in the vaccination debate. Who takes responsibility? When I was told by the Texas school that my son had to be vaccinated, I asked the doctor or nurse if they would sign a paper taking responsibility if something went wrong. No takers on that. Who is responsible, the drug company? The school? The doctors? The Politicians? Bottom line is that the parent is responsible. This is as it should be. If I am responsible for my child then I am also responsible to make the vaccination decision.
5
Jerry, sounds like a good plan. I think every time I consider buckling a small chlld into a seat belt I will first find a responsible public official who can sign a release taking responsibility in case anything goes wrong.
Immunization must be mandatory. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
1
As the grandmother of four who were born in the last eight months, your refusal to vaccinate risks the lives of my grandkids who are too young to be vaccinated.
I remember the delight in my grandmother's face when we lined up at an armory to take the polio vaccine. She knew then her beloved grandchildren would never get polio.
I had all the childhood diseases and vaccinated all of my children without a second thought. My children are vaccinating their children. I only have to tell them about their great-grandmother who lost two children to whooping cough (which is also going around and probably more serious than measles).
Can you imagine the hurt in the heart of a mother watching two children die because there was no vaccine?
These anti-vaxxers ought to be ashamed of themselves. And please keep your children away from my babies who are too young to defend against your children's abuse at your hands. Stay home, no grocery store, no Target or Walmart for you Republicans. There are babies at risk and some of them are mine.
I remember the delight in my grandmother's face when we lined up at an armory to take the polio vaccine. She knew then her beloved grandchildren would never get polio.
I had all the childhood diseases and vaccinated all of my children without a second thought. My children are vaccinating their children. I only have to tell them about their great-grandmother who lost two children to whooping cough (which is also going around and probably more serious than measles).
Can you imagine the hurt in the heart of a mother watching two children die because there was no vaccine?
These anti-vaxxers ought to be ashamed of themselves. And please keep your children away from my babies who are too young to defend against your children's abuse at your hands. Stay home, no grocery store, no Target or Walmart for you Republicans. There are babies at risk and some of them are mine.
18
If the measles outbreak was centered in West Baltimore or Detroit, the GOP would be condemning irresponsible single parents and their broods for endangering the lives of the public.
12
I am infuriated to read the phrasing in the first paragraph.
Where, specifically, has anyone in a position of power suggested that we force parents to vaccinate their children? I don't recall seeing this anywhere, and it certainly did not come from the Obama administration.
Republicans have made a political issue out of this, just as they tried over Ebola.
They are, as Christie has amply demonstrated, cowards.
Where, specifically, has anyone in a position of power suggested that we force parents to vaccinate their children? I don't recall seeing this anywhere, and it certainly did not come from the Obama administration.
Republicans have made a political issue out of this, just as they tried over Ebola.
They are, as Christie has amply demonstrated, cowards.
I think this is a somewhat complex issue caught up in individual rights , state rights, the community's overarching right to be safe. The science seems to say the vaccine for measles does no harm and is quite effective. Given that measles is highly contagious and the vaccine does no harm I think this is a clear case where individual and so called parental rights end at the border of other people's rights to not needlessly be ill.
1
If you believe heavier object fall faster than lighter ones, that the Earth is flat, &/or that evolution is not fact, you are not a "skeptic." You are mistaken, uneducated, and wrong.
All manner of human endeavors require that we take what science says as a guide. An ordinary education should make this hurdle reasonable for any person. If you are going to challenge well understood science you it is beholden on you to have MORE information, not less, for that challenge to be considered legitimate skepticism.
All manner of human endeavors require that we take what science says as a guide. An ordinary education should make this hurdle reasonable for any person. If you are going to challenge well understood science you it is beholden on you to have MORE information, not less, for that challenge to be considered legitimate skepticism.
7
Left and Right have members who do not want to vaccinate. The article is dishonest in that the left has about the same number of groups who oppose vaccinations. Many in environmentalist movement hold the same view.
Um, the article--did you read it?--says exactly this.
5
However, only on the Right is vaccination an issue in primaries, and is ignorance of science a qualification for candidates.
8
Actually, the zip codes of the largest percentage of children whose parents refuse immunization are in deep blue zip codes. Period.
1
I am our family's family historian. While many people who enjoy this hobby focus on accumulating a long list of names, my approach is to tell the stories of the real person behind the name. In doing that I have learned that often only one third of children survived past childhood. One great grandmother, for example, lost two children in two days. And a third one died at another time. One great grandfather lost his first wife to smallpox and "premature confinement." And on it goes.
I wouldn't wish this on anyone. I agree with several of the posters who wrote that the unvaccinated children should not be allowed in school. But I'll go further; they shouldn't be allowed to go out in public. After all the current outbreak began in Disneyland.
I wouldn't wish this on anyone. I agree with several of the posters who wrote that the unvaccinated children should not be allowed in school. But I'll go further; they shouldn't be allowed to go out in public. After all the current outbreak began in Disneyland.
8
Republicans feel that parents should be barred from making life or death decisions about their prospective children with they are fetuses; but feel that the same parents should have complete freedom to make life or death decisions about their children after they are born. Either Republicans feel fetuses are more worthy of protection than actual born children; or there is hypocrisy here.
7
Sky high hypocrisy! Let's see what one of them say when asked this very question?
1
We have decades of experience and mountains of scientific research behind the vast majority of people who vaccinate their children, and there is a small number of fearful people who withhold vaccines based only on suspicion and fear. That's not much of a debate. Let's not give cover to bad ideas and ridiculous people by implying there's equal validity between good ideas and bad. It's the fake virtue of "balanced" reporting.
Not only do we have to deal with the anti-vaccine crowd by barring them and their children from mixing with others, we have to devise rules and regulations to make vaccination mandatory. There's no question that's the right thing and the only thing to do. And now we have the unsurprising development that Republicans are siding with the dubious anti-vaccine crowd, advocating to let fear trump public health. What's next, will getting measles be hailed as a patriotic act? Freedom pox for everyone!
Not only do we have to deal with the anti-vaccine crowd by barring them and their children from mixing with others, we have to devise rules and regulations to make vaccination mandatory. There's no question that's the right thing and the only thing to do. And now we have the unsurprising development that Republicans are siding with the dubious anti-vaccine crowd, advocating to let fear trump public health. What's next, will getting measles be hailed as a patriotic act? Freedom pox for everyone!
5
I'm 100% for vaccination, but not by government mandate. Government forced vaccinations/medications is a step too far. And no, children who are not vaccinated should not be quarantined from school. The "vulnerable" populations need to be aware that viruses are out there and act accordingly (i.e. not expect to free-ride off of everyone else).
2
But you're okay with government control of women's bodies. You're okay that old, white men sitting high in some office can have total control of a woman's body, irrespective of her own choices.
I think it's time for you to reconsider some of these issues.
I think it's time for you to reconsider some of these issues.
6
Who on earth, besides commenters on the Internet, is saying that the government needs to mandate vaccination? I have read, heard, or seen a single credible - and actually powerful - person suggest anything like that. Yes, I realize Rick Perry required the Gardasil vaccine (a position he later backed off of), and I have my own issues with his action there, even though I intend on getting my own daughters the vaccine.
But beyond that - who is even talking about mandating vaccines such as MMR??
And as for expecting a "free-ride" off of everyone, that misunderstands the basic concept of herd immunity, which benefits us ALL, but is most effective when vaccination rates are high, i.e., 90-95%. It also seems a bit iffy to put the onus on people who *cannot* be immunized due to compromised immune systems from certain diseases, for example, instead of requesting the absence of those who are *choosing* to be unvaccinated.
But beyond that - who is even talking about mandating vaccines such as MMR??
And as for expecting a "free-ride" off of everyone, that misunderstands the basic concept of herd immunity, which benefits us ALL, but is most effective when vaccination rates are high, i.e., 90-95%. It also seems a bit iffy to put the onus on people who *cannot* be immunized due to compromised immune systems from certain diseases, for example, instead of requesting the absence of those who are *choosing* to be unvaccinated.
5
" children who are not vaccinated should not be quarantined from school."
----------------
Okay, then, lead by example and let the unvaccinated interact with your kids. Mine will be over in the vaccinated room.
As for the "free ride" schtick, I wonder how many of those who always have to inject such a jab are taking tax breaks and loopholes that the rest of us pay for.
----------------
Okay, then, lead by example and let the unvaccinated interact with your kids. Mine will be over in the vaccinated room.
As for the "free ride" schtick, I wonder how many of those who always have to inject such a jab are taking tax breaks and loopholes that the rest of us pay for.
2
People who don't vaccinate their children don't make that choice because they're evil, or Republican, or Democrat, or because they don't love their children. They make that choice because they're scared for their children, and because they have not managed to sort out the strong, real, scientific evidence in favor of vaccines from the buzz of pseudoscience that pervades the internet. Any politician in any party who panders to that fear is responsible for every child who catches a preventable disease.
3
I suspect the measles issue, global warming, and evolution is a difficult issue for the republicans. That's why many of us are now independents.
5
Is a person who refuses vaccinations for themsleves or their children and subsequently causes the death or permenant debilitation of another person - perhaps an infant or immunocompromised person - any different than a person with AIDS having unprotected sex without informing their partner?
In a recent case in Oregon, a child died due to complications from diabetes because her parents refused to allow her to receive medical treatment due to their religious beliefs. The parents were convicted of manslaughter. In my opinion, parents who refuse to vaccinate their children should also be prosecuted for neglect or manslaughter should their child be permenantly debilitated or die of a disease that could have been prevented with a vaccination. And if an non-vaccinated child sickens another person, the parents should be held liable.
Oregon's measles vaccination rate is 90%, less than the target 94% that imparts herd immunity. If there is an outbreak, those responsible should be held accountable.
In a recent case in Oregon, a child died due to complications from diabetes because her parents refused to allow her to receive medical treatment due to their religious beliefs. The parents were convicted of manslaughter. In my opinion, parents who refuse to vaccinate their children should also be prosecuted for neglect or manslaughter should their child be permenantly debilitated or die of a disease that could have been prevented with a vaccination. And if an non-vaccinated child sickens another person, the parents should be held liable.
Oregon's measles vaccination rate is 90%, less than the target 94% that imparts herd immunity. If there is an outbreak, those responsible should be held accountable.
10
The problem with the formulation of Gov. Christie and Sen. Paul in explaining their respective positions on immunizations is the fallacious idea that parents "own their children". Parents care for and rear their children, and are empowered to make critical decisions regarding their health. They do not own their children.
The idea is actually sort of appalling when you parse it fully; children become automatons without free will or agency in regards to life or death decisions. This is the reasoning behind parental notification laws restricting a myriad of life-saving therapies and drugs, including HPV vaccines, the morning after pill, and even contraceptives. Isn't it past time that we move beyond outdated notions of parental ownership that were not appropriate even in the "good old days"?
The idea is actually sort of appalling when you parse it fully; children become automatons without free will or agency in regards to life or death decisions. This is the reasoning behind parental notification laws restricting a myriad of life-saving therapies and drugs, including HPV vaccines, the morning after pill, and even contraceptives. Isn't it past time that we move beyond outdated notions of parental ownership that were not appropriate even in the "good old days"?
1
Why should this issue be any different for Republicans? When did facts and science ever enter into any of their decisions. I'm waiting to see how somehow they will say that measles showing up at Disneyland is Obama's fault.
4
As usual, Rand Paul's Libertarian ideology puts an individual's right to issue a death sentence to their child above the rights of thousands or even millions of other parents and children who might have to be exposed to the sick child of irresponsible parents. And of course, his backwards ideas have the potential to cost the entirety of the United States an awful lot of money cleaning up a public health crisis potentially caused by a single idiot science-denier because they're individual rights are more important than the rights of millions of others.
1
#Susan Marks, FL:
Susan, I am sympathetic with you. As a physician and STRONG supporter of vaccinations, I nevertheless fully understand that some parents will have questions and need reassurance. I would feel confident that by sitting down with an apprehensive parent and explaining the advantages and disadvantages of vaccination vs. the risks for their children and public health I would be able to sway 9 out of 10 doubters. That would be enough to maintain this 'herd immunity' that is so important for decreasing the risk of an outbreak and thereby the risk that primarily unvaccinated very young children and immunocompromised individuals have to fear.
The preferable way to achieve this is through calm and logic, not aggressive compulsion, denigration and discrimination. Parents confronted that way will only dig in their heels, ultimately to the detriment of the children, either because they get sick or because they are being discriminated against in school and by other parents.
I prefer to live in a tolerant, peaceful and libertarian democracy, not an oppressive totalitarian Democratocracy.
Susan, I am sympathetic with you. As a physician and STRONG supporter of vaccinations, I nevertheless fully understand that some parents will have questions and need reassurance. I would feel confident that by sitting down with an apprehensive parent and explaining the advantages and disadvantages of vaccination vs. the risks for their children and public health I would be able to sway 9 out of 10 doubters. That would be enough to maintain this 'herd immunity' that is so important for decreasing the risk of an outbreak and thereby the risk that primarily unvaccinated very young children and immunocompromised individuals have to fear.
The preferable way to achieve this is through calm and logic, not aggressive compulsion, denigration and discrimination. Parents confronted that way will only dig in their heels, ultimately to the detriment of the children, either because they get sick or because they are being discriminated against in school and by other parents.
I prefer to live in a tolerant, peaceful and libertarian democracy, not an oppressive totalitarian Democratocracy.
1
Skepticism? Hardly. More like Hysteria. Those who refuse to vaccinate their children or themselves because of unfounded beliefs are not engaging in skepticism, which has a long and distinguished history. True skepticism is based upon fidelity to facts, to the extent they are known, and the ability to tolerate uncertainty where facts are few, rather than giving in to suspect and fallacious ideology.
What leads people not to vaccinate their children is not skepticism's fine-tuned understanding of risk and and ambiguity, but ignorance, and ignorance's rejection of things which require acceptance of someone else's knowledge. Rather than accept the real risk of something they no longer see, like once-prevalent communicable disease, non-vaccinators give way to fear of something they think they see all the time (autism, or whatever).
It's hard to see how this kind of aggressive ignorance can be totally eradicated, though there may be some parallels to measles itself in that regard. But the rest of the culture should do all it can to remove any incentive for pols like Chris Christie or RIck Santorum to make hay out of some peoples' fear impulse. Once again, the burden is on Republicans as a Party to think beyond the next election to what kind of country they want to live in. Or, perhaps, its up to people who don't otherwise consider themselves Democrats to realize that the Reps are not up to that vital thought process anymore, and that is why they are so dangerous.
What leads people not to vaccinate their children is not skepticism's fine-tuned understanding of risk and and ambiguity, but ignorance, and ignorance's rejection of things which require acceptance of someone else's knowledge. Rather than accept the real risk of something they no longer see, like once-prevalent communicable disease, non-vaccinators give way to fear of something they think they see all the time (autism, or whatever).
It's hard to see how this kind of aggressive ignorance can be totally eradicated, though there may be some parallels to measles itself in that regard. But the rest of the culture should do all it can to remove any incentive for pols like Chris Christie or RIck Santorum to make hay out of some peoples' fear impulse. Once again, the burden is on Republicans as a Party to think beyond the next election to what kind of country they want to live in. Or, perhaps, its up to people who don't otherwise consider themselves Democrats to realize that the Reps are not up to that vital thought process anymore, and that is why they are so dangerous.
10
Thank you for such an excellent explanation of the difference between skepticism and hysteria. I am a science teacher and am going to discuss this with my students!
3
I concur with MRod for your good commentary. But I do believe you know that this will fly right over the heads of Christie and Santorum. Oh well!
I notice that some parents object to vaccines because of some of the ingredients in them - they mention aluminum for instance. Here's an idea: what about developing "organic vaccines" (that don't have such ingredients) in carefully supervised scientific laboratories? These vaccines would probably have a much shorter shelf life and be more expensive, but they would address the fears of at least some parents and perhaps go a long way to alleviating this threat to the public health.
1
Let us be clear. Saying something repeatedly never makes it so. To paraphrase Mrs Clinton, the earth is round and the sky is blue no matter what you believe. "A person is free to swing his fist until he encounters my nose! " This quip capsulizes JS Mill's famous limitation on personal liberty in relation to government power. Government has no right to impose a belief on me, even if it is for my own good and I am in error, unless and until my refusal endangers others.
Living in society, we all have individual responsibility to preserve the public welfare. With respect to measles vaccination, unvaccinated children are a health threat to the general community as well as to themselves and their parents. Society has two moral and politically just responses. When education fails, compel vaccination in the public interest. The second is social isolation (quaranteen) which even in the midst of an epidemic is very difficult and can practically only be applied to those children already ill.
This is not a new conflict. it has been publically litigated since vaccination for small pox was first discovered by Jenner in the 18th centur and the pious claimed such protection was thwarting the will of God.
For anyone to encourage citizens to endanger their children and their fellow citizens in order to support a libertarian notion of personal freedom deeply misunderstand John Stuart Mill.
Living in society, we all have individual responsibility to preserve the public welfare. With respect to measles vaccination, unvaccinated children are a health threat to the general community as well as to themselves and their parents. Society has two moral and politically just responses. When education fails, compel vaccination in the public interest. The second is social isolation (quaranteen) which even in the midst of an epidemic is very difficult and can practically only be applied to those children already ill.
This is not a new conflict. it has been publically litigated since vaccination for small pox was first discovered by Jenner in the 18th centur and the pious claimed such protection was thwarting the will of God.
For anyone to encourage citizens to endanger their children and their fellow citizens in order to support a libertarian notion of personal freedom deeply misunderstand John Stuart Mill.
2
Please help us understand why the greatest areas of immunization avoidance are in deep blue zip codes throughout the U.S. Supposed backwater deep red states (eg, MS, AL) have better immunization rates than the so-called elites. Really, who are the idiots in this scenario???
4
Christie and Rand, for starters.
2
Unless the butterfly ballots have already been printed, none of those "deep blue zip codes" will play any role in selecting a Republican president.
Don't know who the idiots are, but we know who the knaves are: the elected officials who have the opportunity to know better and the responsibility to educate, and two of the men wanting to run for president fit that bill. I don't expect to see any democrats added to that sorry list.
1
Irony of the day: Parents should have choice because they own their children. Women, however, should not have choice over what they do with their own bodies. Both involve health issues with life/death consequences.
4
Just for the record, like Rand Paul, Howard Dean is a medical doctor. By giving Rand Paul's credentials, but omitting Howard Dean's, it would appear that the reporter is providing scientific bona fides to Paul's position regarding vaccination as matter of choice. The fact that both men are doctors but only one, the right-wing Republican, endorses making vaccination optional, speaks to the politicization of this issue, which was supposedly the issue in this report.
2
'“But the truth,” added Mr. Dean, a physician, “is you can be conservative without putting kids in harm’s way.”'
2
As if anyone needed any more evidence of how blatantly our leaders have become career politicians than in their pandering to complete ignorance for the sake of a vote.
1
Yep, See DACA.
As a virologist that has studied pediatric (and adult) viral respiratory diseases such as measles for 25 years - and was involved in measles eradication efforts while working at the CDC in Atlanta in the 1990' - I am puzzled by the reaction of some to these outbreaks that are clearly caused by lack of immunization by choice. If you travel to places with endemic measles. you hear the local officials BEGGING for access to vaccines for their citizens, young and old. I am sure that I and wonder how those that want to be leaders in this country can take the position that not getting our children the best preventive care available is a choice. You would think that the cost of care for a patient with measles alone would trump their argument on fiscal conservative grounds, but I guess they have not heard from the insurance lobby on this one loudly enough yet...The inability of the leaders at any level, city, state, federal to UNDERSTAND what is really basic biology is another example of how this nation's failure to challenge its children with the FACTS in science at a young age can come back to haunt us all. These people - before they were republican, democrat, or libertarian - were all children, and learned in our schools the same way I did. Maybe they need a little biology 101 to refresh them on the facts before they open their mouths and let the stupidity come pouring out...Let's hope that's not as contagious as measles virus is in humans.
16
As a virologist how do you account for the presence of the measles virus in the first place? Given that the CDC claims the virus had been eliminated from the US in 2000. Is it possible that the influx of South American children into the US in 2014 reintroduced the virus?
Time for new reading glasses. The CDC NEVER said measles was fully eradicated in the U.S. There have been measles cases every year. Often they result from unvaccinated individuals traveling to areas where the infection is more common and returning to the U.S. Vaccination rates in Mexico and several central American nations are actually higher than in the U.S. Your one-note opposition to immigration notwithstanding, the measles outbreak should have differentially affected immigrant populations and communities. T'ain't so.
1
@davecbt,
Perhaps you should check before posting:
http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html
Just say'n.
Perhaps you should check before posting:
http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html
Just say'n.
So, in the name of "religious liberty" and "personal freedom," are the conservatives going to set about undoing all of the advances we've made over the past 150 years, that have improved our quality of life as a nation? What's next on their anti-science, know-nothing crusade? Fluoridation of our water? Chlorination of the water and municipal water systems? Municipal sewage systems? Maybe they'd have us all back to living in the woods, a la the Brown Family, of Alaskan Wilderness fame.
"The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.”
Mr. Paul, by this logic what right does the state have in preventing child abuse, or requiring that a child be educated?
Mr. Paul, by this logic what right does the state have in preventing child abuse, or requiring that a child be educated?
4
You know how our bill of rights guarantees us 'freedom of speech'...
Yet the Supreme Court has established that it isn't allowed to run into a crowded theater and scream 'fire' where none exists.
IOW: We have these rights as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others.
I have gotten my daughter MMR vaccinated, twice -- but it came in between courses of OraPred (a steroid) that she must take on account of her asthma. This means that her body's immune response to the vaccine likely wasn't as strong as it ought to have been. (And, incidentally, OraPred also interferes with the clarity of a titer to check her immunity.)
'Personal Belief Exemptions' have infringed upon my daughter's rights. If you want to be part of the 'public' -- use public schools, parks, transportation -- then you must also participate in public health. And get vaccinated.
Yet the Supreme Court has established that it isn't allowed to run into a crowded theater and scream 'fire' where none exists.
IOW: We have these rights as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others.
I have gotten my daughter MMR vaccinated, twice -- but it came in between courses of OraPred (a steroid) that she must take on account of her asthma. This means that her body's immune response to the vaccine likely wasn't as strong as it ought to have been. (And, incidentally, OraPred also interferes with the clarity of a titer to check her immunity.)
'Personal Belief Exemptions' have infringed upon my daughter's rights. If you want to be part of the 'public' -- use public schools, parks, transportation -- then you must also participate in public health. And get vaccinated.
1
Wake up America! The great works of the scientific community trumps individual alarmism.
Perhaps all entities of public and private gatherings of 25 or more people should require proof of immunization or that entity would be fully responsible for costs associated in the spread of an outbreak of measles or any other disease that requires immunization to protect the public.
We need more good people to speak out on this issue. We need a responsible debate about science and the role it has played in prolonging life.
Ignorance breds intolerance.
Our politics is corrupted. The lack of faith in the most important role government plays in our lives is increasingly compromised due to political agendas and lust for power.
Perhaps all entities of public and private gatherings of 25 or more people should require proof of immunization or that entity would be fully responsible for costs associated in the spread of an outbreak of measles or any other disease that requires immunization to protect the public.
We need more good people to speak out on this issue. We need a responsible debate about science and the role it has played in prolonging life.
Ignorance breds intolerance.
Our politics is corrupted. The lack of faith in the most important role government plays in our lives is increasingly compromised due to political agendas and lust for power.
2
Some GOP politicians want to preserve for parents the right to make a faith-based choice on whether or not to vaccinate their kids for measles. On the other hand, these same politicians want to deny women (and presumably parents, as well) the right to choose to have an abortion. Unless I'm missing something, I find their hypocrisy stunning.
2
faith based health choices don't belong in the modern era- the middle ages is where it should have stayed...
No one owns children Mr. Paul. They are not property. They have rights to liberty, and protection from disease is a big part of liberty. Suffering and dying under the tyranny of preventable disease is not liberty.
In a free society, we all have a personal responsibility to behave in such a manner that does not injure others. Otherwise, don't have liberty, we have chaos and rule by force.
Republicans have made careers out of producing lies and misinformation to get votes. They particularly are good at trashing science as a disguise at promoting liberty. They appeal to fear and ignorance and call it freedom, but it is still fear and ignorance.
Vaccines are the greatest preventers of disease that have ever been devised. The world was racked with terrible suffering and death before their development. Republicans are so enamored with their precious libertarian ideology, that even the greatest accomplishment of medical science is tossed aside. Vaccinate your kids and protect their liberty to not get sick!
In a free society, we all have a personal responsibility to behave in such a manner that does not injure others. Otherwise, don't have liberty, we have chaos and rule by force.
Republicans have made careers out of producing lies and misinformation to get votes. They particularly are good at trashing science as a disguise at promoting liberty. They appeal to fear and ignorance and call it freedom, but it is still fear and ignorance.
Vaccines are the greatest preventers of disease that have ever been devised. The world was racked with terrible suffering and death before their development. Republicans are so enamored with their precious libertarian ideology, that even the greatest accomplishment of medical science is tossed aside. Vaccinate your kids and protect their liberty to not get sick!
2
The irony is that the same people to frequently reject sound science still believe a completely discredited piece of science that the vaccines cause autism. Resoundingly weird.
2
Since so few of us have life experiences with communicable diseases that have been prevented by vaccination, it's not hard to forget how terrible they are.
If parents or individuals want to skip vaccines they should need to sit through a mandatory seminar series that presents them with the best evidence of why they should vaccinate if they want their kids to use public facilities, and debunks the garbage.
If Republicans can support trans-vaginal probes, mandatory waiting periods, forced ultrasound viewings and getting second opinions for abortions, this should be right up with their need to meddle in the doctor patient relationship.
If parents or individuals want to skip vaccines they should need to sit through a mandatory seminar series that presents them with the best evidence of why they should vaccinate if they want their kids to use public facilities, and debunks the garbage.
If Republicans can support trans-vaginal probes, mandatory waiting periods, forced ultrasound viewings and getting second opinions for abortions, this should be right up with their need to meddle in the doctor patient relationship.
2
Some commentators, especially Republican analysts, say that the issue of vaccinations for our children should not be made a political issue. That completely ignores that fact that through years of irrational political pandering they have made it a political issue. They are wrecking havoc on the health and well being of innocent children. I can fully understand why they want to run away from the issue now. However, there is only one appropriate response for them: That is to apologize for making an issue that affects the welfare of our children another in their string of mindless Tea Party anti government attacks and admit that they were wrong and want to support doing right by our children now. They need to admit that what they have said was totally without any scientific merit. Finally, they need to admit that science plays a valuable role in promoting the welfare of our nation and we should not mindlessly dismiss what our doctors, climate scientists and other highly trained individuals have to say. Being smart, well trained and hard working are attributes that should our society reject will be at our own peril.
12
What does it say about todays GOP when several of their presidential contenders choose to elevate repeatedly debunked crank conspiracy theories above proven scientific results?
Here's a question the media should be asking these fools: As president would they allow a public health crisis to occur because some unproven, unfounded, debunked conspiracy theory conflicts with long accepted public health policies?
Here's a question the media should be asking these fools: As president would they allow a public health crisis to occur because some unproven, unfounded, debunked conspiracy theory conflicts with long accepted public health policies?
2
How about this question:
As president would you allow unencumbered entry to the US without requiring medical records?
As president would you allow unencumbered entry to the US without requiring medical records?
You want Obama to check for measles now? I thought you guys were scared to death that drug cartels were going to bring in Ebola virus into the US?
Sorry jacobi, you are reduced to talking in circles, just like your party's leaders.
Sorry jacobi, you are reduced to talking in circles, just like your party's leaders.
5
It is amazing that in today's age of science and rapid innovation that one of two major political parties is so adversarial to settled science. It says a lot about the American people and the power of media manipulation.
Fear sells.....
Fear sells.....
2
The corollary to "Personal Freedom" is "Personal Responsibility". If you expect to live in a civil society you cannot have one without the other. A parent does not have the right to endanger other peoples' children citing personal freedom unless, of course, that parent and child never, ever leave their own home and also never, ever allow anyone else in.
4
I should have known that Republicans wouldn't have anything useful to say about virology. It wasn't that long ago that they betrayed their ignorance about AIDS.
Calling the base "skeptical," however, may be too kind. This feels more like willful ignorance borne of animosity. It's almost as if Republicans need to turn every issue into a hot-button issue, every dispute into a crusade.
Calling the base "skeptical," however, may be too kind. This feels more like willful ignorance borne of animosity. It's almost as if Republicans need to turn every issue into a hot-button issue, every dispute into a crusade.
2
Science denial on the right has nothing to do with an ideology and everything to do with adopting convenient positions to attract as many voters as possible. Both parties are guilty of it at one time or another, but I can't think of a democratic position that puts as many lives in dangers as this tacit encouragement of the anti-vaccine movement on the right.
Scrounging up votes from focus group-built "ideologies" built on the lowest common denominator of opinions has serious consequences, and I hope the media will start holding our political parties to a higher standard sooner rather than later. Treating these opinions like they come from any type of ideology is counterproductive to a serious discourse on these topics.
Scrounging up votes from focus group-built "ideologies" built on the lowest common denominator of opinions has serious consequences, and I hope the media will start holding our political parties to a higher standard sooner rather than later. Treating these opinions like they come from any type of ideology is counterproductive to a serious discourse on these topics.
2
What can this so-called Republican dilemma, the "uncomfortable position of reconciling modern science with the skepticism of their core conservative voters," possibly mean?
Who are these people?
When the polio vaccine was invented and we children of the 1950s lined up in our public schools to get sugar cubes laced with the stuff, our parents all had a tremendous burden lifted from them. We all knew people who limped, and some knew people who had died.
And we all of a certain age sport little smallpox vaccine dimples.
No one should be catering to these anti-science types -- who are both liberal Democrats in California enclaves and conservative Republicans in our heartland.
(But of course, as for the Republicans, when Republican politicians mouth off on rape victims' not possibly becoming pregnant unless they really wanted to be raped, all cards are off the table. The Taliban have won.)
Who are these people?
When the polio vaccine was invented and we children of the 1950s lined up in our public schools to get sugar cubes laced with the stuff, our parents all had a tremendous burden lifted from them. We all knew people who limped, and some knew people who had died.
And we all of a certain age sport little smallpox vaccine dimples.
No one should be catering to these anti-science types -- who are both liberal Democrats in California enclaves and conservative Republicans in our heartland.
(But of course, as for the Republicans, when Republican politicians mouth off on rape victims' not possibly becoming pregnant unless they really wanted to be raped, all cards are off the table. The Taliban have won.)
3
It's all talk right now. The moment babies start dying is when people will start changing their minds.
Didn't we already go through this? oh yea, was the early 18th century before modern medicine started curing people. Prior to that it was all faith healing, which did not work out very well during the Middle Ages or the Great Plague.
Didn't we already go through this? oh yea, was the early 18th century before modern medicine started curing people. Prior to that it was all faith healing, which did not work out very well during the Middle Ages or the Great Plague.
2
When I was a little girl in the 50s, my mother wouldn't let us swim in public pools in the summertime because of the spectre of polio. I know people who are now in their 70s who still live with the after-effects of that disease. I also remember friends and classmates dying or suffering serious damage as the result of measles.
Not immunizing not only puts the individual parent's child at risk, it also threatens others, such as my infant granddaughter who cannot be immunized for another six months.
I'm not sure how we deal with this short of State compulsion/coercion, but not allowing unimmmunized children in group settings such as daycare ad classrooms, without the current 'parental conscience' opt-outs, is at least a beginning. If you are willing to risk your own child's well-being based on hysteria and junk science, so be it, but not mine or anyone else's, thank you.
And my best wishes to your youngsters, who are unprotected against both disease and parental ignorance.
Not immunizing not only puts the individual parent's child at risk, it also threatens others, such as my infant granddaughter who cannot be immunized for another six months.
I'm not sure how we deal with this short of State compulsion/coercion, but not allowing unimmmunized children in group settings such as daycare ad classrooms, without the current 'parental conscience' opt-outs, is at least a beginning. If you are willing to risk your own child's well-being based on hysteria and junk science, so be it, but not mine or anyone else's, thank you.
And my best wishes to your youngsters, who are unprotected against both disease and parental ignorance.
1
I am particularly appalled that Rand Paul, a physician himself, has such a poor grasp of the science of immunization that the "spread out" his own children's vaccinations, and thinks that vaccination should be a personal decision.
My own personal decision is that if he's spouting medical nonsense on the public stage he should lose his license to practice medicine.
My own personal decision is that if he's spouting medical nonsense on the public stage he should lose his license to practice medicine.
The anti-vaccination movement is similar to campaigns against water fluoridation to prevent tooth decay, lowering greenhouse gasses to control climate warming, and other reasonable public health measures. It stems from a combination of anti-scientific attitudes and an extreme individualism that claims there is no such thing as society.
1
Why is the media coverage of this not nearly as alarming as was the Ebola coverage?
A few months ago the entire world was going to die, yet the anti-vaccination belief poses a far greater threat to our nation's well-being. Furthermore, it shows the true colors of some fellow Americans, and even some of our leaders, who continue to make decisions based on emotion and faith as opposed to scientific evidence and the resulting theory.
This article examines these issues, but it does so with a lack of urgency. The media should yell louder. This is an enormous issue.
A few months ago the entire world was going to die, yet the anti-vaccination belief poses a far greater threat to our nation's well-being. Furthermore, it shows the true colors of some fellow Americans, and even some of our leaders, who continue to make decisions based on emotion and faith as opposed to scientific evidence and the resulting theory.
This article examines these issues, but it does so with a lack of urgency. The media should yell louder. This is an enormous issue.
2
Rand Paul says “The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.” Rand Paul is wrong, both in fact and in principle. The Thirteenth Amendment to the US Constitution abolishes chattel slavery. Parents have responsibility for children, to a certain age, but nobody owns them. I am sure that Paul will claim that he misspoke, but the word "own" is a powerful concept, and, to me, clearly indicates the mindset of many conservatives with regard to their relationships with people as well as with property.
1
As much as libertarians would like to believe it is so, personal freedom does not mean that one can do anything that one pleases. Every citizen doing exactly as they please has a name, and it is anarchy. So the debate centers around proper limits on individual freedom so that we can have a functioning society. The will of the majority necessarily places reasonable limits on individual freedom in order to have a functioning society. I, and many others, believe that the prevention of dangerous diseases is necessary in order to have a safe, functioning society. I find it completely reasonable that there be strong incentives for vaccination - lower health care premiums, and educational segregration. You want to have things your way, in the face of all evidence to the contrary? Be careful what you ask for.
1
The Republicans have found the perfect sweet spot response to the question: " I believe that all children should be vaccinated against measles". Key work, should not must. The question for society is not if, could, should it's "MUST". Must makes it a public heath issue and is the only way of eradicating the disease. Cristy and Ron Paul want to have it both ways and you can't. You either support mandatory vaccination for measles or you don't. Please reporters, ask the proper second question.
When religion views, superstition, petulance, and stupidity collide, you get the GOP.
Thanks for putting the public in danger by ignoring proven science.
GOP, why don't you just pray to your God to fix everything, while you sit in front of Fox News.
Thanks for putting the public in danger by ignoring proven science.
GOP, why don't you just pray to your God to fix everything, while you sit in front of Fox News.
2
It looks like the next problem that politicians use as a political PR. Rather than solve the problem, they are starting to make strong statements by means of which try to attract the attention of potential voters.
The headline says more than required to make one sick. Why on earth should the health and wellbeing of our children be a "delicate issue"? Is there no end to pandering? If it were not already quite evident, Isn't this just proof positive that these 'GOP hopefuls" care more about being elected than they care about the public? What is the matter with these people that they can't tell their constituents that freedom from disease that can be prevented comes first? Seems to me that was the hue and cry when ebola touched our shores and there was about zero chance of it spreading. Complete and utter hypocrisy.
I am sickened. Anyone working on a vaccine against this GOP disease? I am willing to be a guinea pig.
I am sickened. Anyone working on a vaccine against this GOP disease? I am willing to be a guinea pig.
1
To think that we have stooped so low in the political debate to include measles vaccinations is appalling. Science is not political it's science.
Since when has Rand Paul, opthamologist/ senator and Chris Christie, corrupt and obviously obese food addict governor become experts on the measles vaccine? If either of these two half wits has any designs of becoming the next POTUS, they had better forget all about that one and go back to school and study science. Note to all those delusional parents who have been seduced by the likes of wacky Jenny McCarthy. The measles vaccine is safe and the vast majority of parents don't want their children being exposed to your unvaccinated children. Your attitude is both fool hardy and irresponsible.
1
It was around the time Christie became an expert on Ebola, I suspect.
It's bizarrely ironic and reality-bending to see his quarantine panic over Ebola compared to his "choices!" approach to the far-likelier to spread and more common measles...
It's bizarrely ironic and reality-bending to see his quarantine panic over Ebola compared to his "choices!" approach to the far-likelier to spread and more common measles...
What a couple of hacks. My kids all have their measles shots, and I think its the right call to make, but when I meet or hear about someone who is uncomfortable with the risks of vaccinating, I don't think of them as skeptical of science. Science IS skepticism. I know both liberals and conservative who are concerned about some of the ingredients (mercury, formaldehyde, etc.) sometimes included in vaccines. Just because some studies today say those low levels are safe, doesn't mean future SCIENTIFIC studies won't overturn that data. If the science currently available hasn't convinced everyone, Dick and Jerry don't need to insult everyone who isn't ready to march in lockstep with them on every issue. Didn't Fen Phen get approved by the FDA? Wasn't Asbestos once deemed safe? What they are really offended by is anyone who disagrees with what THEY think is right. REAL science and REAL scientists invite skepticism and dissent. Attacking skepticism and skeptics as somehow being 'unscientific' is almost the most unscientific thing I can think of.
3
So the vast majority of the outbreak is taking place in the enlightened, liberal world of Southern California, where immunization rates are dangerously low and somehow the Republicans are to blame. Is this an article in the Times or The Onion?
1
Not Liberals my friend, Libertarians.
Two completely different groups.
And did you even read the article?
It clearly shows that while the percentage of Democrats who vaccinate had gone up, the percentage of Republicans who vaccinate has gone down.
It's right there.
Read the article before you complain.
Two completely different groups.
And did you even read the article?
It clearly shows that while the percentage of Democrats who vaccinate had gone up, the percentage of Republicans who vaccinate has gone down.
It's right there.
Read the article before you complain.
2
It is indeed the Times, which has also published articles - including just a couple days ago - about liberal enclaves like Marin County, CA and the high rates of "personal belief" exemptions. This is one article examining the measles outbreak via its potential impact on GOP presidential contenders. It is not, say, an encyclopedia entry that purports to cover the whole subject.
Fear not - the Times is shining some light on the liberal/environmentalist/coastal etc. crowd and their anti-vaxx views as well - before they wrote about the outbreak's impact on presidential politics.
Fear not - the Times is shining some light on the liberal/environmentalist/coastal etc. crowd and their anti-vaxx views as well - before they wrote about the outbreak's impact on presidential politics.
1
Libertarian? Those counties around LA and SF are libertarian? Highly doubtful. I question the entire premise of this article. Why not write a piece about the Democratic problem with this subset of their voters? That would be more honest my good man.
1
Watch them try to squirm out of this one. Free entertainment that is better than "Reality" TV or anything found on the bizarre, underground websites.
So, we evidently are replete with medical experts in the mass media and even among the intelligent web trolls that comment on NYT.com, but we cannot explain why 1 in 1,000-2,000 children suffer seizures from the MMR? Or explain the hundreds of serious adverse medical events that occur each year from vaccines per the VAERS or Federal Claims court proceedings? Is it not clinically significant that there is a, albeit small, subpopulation of people that even die or are disabled from vaccines ? Explain to me why, and specifically how my already epileptic special needs child with a rare genetic condition will not have a similar adverse event, and I will vaccinate her. Otherwise, mind your [xxxx]ing business.
1
Come on. Seriously. Nothing you've said has even a shred of basis in fact.
3
Vaccines are contraindicated in (some) children with seizure disorders. No one is arguing that YOUR child, regardless of other medical conditions, must be vaccinated. What we are arguing is that children who CAN be should be vaccinated, to provide protection to children who cannot. You are correct that adverse reactions do occur, although you grossly overstate both the rate and the severity. Serious adverse reactions are simply so rare that the benefit of vaccinating an otherwise healthy child far outweighs the risk of not doing so.
1
Assuming such a child exists. People make the darndest claims when they can't be verified.
Why is it a conservative issue? Just as many liberals mistrust the vaccination process. California seems to be the hotbed of measles and they are certainly not conservatives. Is this the NYT getting in a jab?
It is not a conservative issue, it is misdirection. Neither the NYT nor the Federal Government wants to analyze how the measles virus was reintroduced into the US. According to the CDC the virus was eliminated from the US. Consider events in 2014 that might have changed that.
Yes, Jacobi, events like....people visiting Disneyland! It is clear that you wish to attach this measles outbreak to the influx of children on the southern border this summer, but that overlooks two important details: the decreasing rates of immunization is the US (particularly in Orange and Marin counties, CA!), and the fact that many of those same countries of origin for the children have *better* immunization rates than American communities.
@kas:
I can't believe this post. The reason why you haven't seen kids in this country with measles is because the vast majority of kids still get vaccinated. When they stop getting vaccinated you will see not only more measles but more mumps, rubella and chicken pox. And then you'll see the deaths that you don't see today.
I can't believe this post. The reason why you haven't seen kids in this country with measles is because the vast majority of kids still get vaccinated. When they stop getting vaccinated you will see not only more measles but more mumps, rubella and chicken pox. And then you'll see the deaths that you don't see today.
2
Roald Dahl lost his daughter Olivia to the measles in 1962 and in this article he talks about what happened to her and the importance of vaccinations.
http://www.roalddahlfans.com/articles/meas.php
http://www.roalddahlfans.com/articles/meas.php
1
And don't forget polio and smallpox!
I wish you had read my post more closely. What I am saying is that many anti-vaxers probably aren't vaccinating or changing their tune because they perceive the situation as "not that serious". My point is that they probably won't change course, unfortunately, until people start dying and we start seeing photos of American kids in 2015 with debilitating measles. Right now they seem to think they can just ride this out.
I personally am vaccinated and would vaccinate my future kids in a heartbeat.
I personally am vaccinated and would vaccinate my future kids in a heartbeat.
Rand Paul is NOT a doctor nor is he a scientist. I am from Kentucky (and did not vote for him) and know he is someone who gets you eyeglasses, an optometrist. He is allowed under state law to call himself doctor because of special legislation passed here some years ago. He even had to found his own accrediting organization because the existing board would not recognize his meager credentials.
3
It's a rare instance in which one statement from a politician is sufficient to demonstrate that he or she is not qualified to be POTUS. Rank Paul has managed to make that statement. “I’ve heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines,”
A responsible person qualified to be president cannot suggest that public policy be made on the basis of something he "has heard", especially when there are vast amounts of scientific evidence that refutes it.
A responsible person qualified to be president cannot suggest that public policy be made on the basis of something he "has heard", especially when there are vast amounts of scientific evidence that refutes it.
5
Does anyone else out there think that Rand Paul should have his medical license revoked??
7
If the MMR vaccine causes autism, why isn't every vaccinated person in the country autistic?!
6
To all of you in the "the science is proven" crowd: Let's take your (very logical) arguement to the next step - religion. The science has proven that the Torah, Bible and Koran are all filled with unscientific and scientifically disproven "facts". Most of the stories in the religious dogma (virtually every religion, mind you...not singling any out) wouldn't pass the sniff-test of your average 5-year old. SO...shouldn't we stop the tax exemptions of religious institutions? Shouldn't we STOP people from this practice that the science has been proven to be ficticious? These people who believe that Noah built an ark big enough for a pair of EVERY animal...and that Moses led his people through a parted Red Sea - are they all backward thinking, non-science following, delusional zealots that need to be stopped?
Didn't think so.
The republicans are saying that people should be free to choose. While I wish they would take this tack with all issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.), it's hard to argue that we should allow the government to MANDATE what we put into our bodies. Personally, I've never gotten the flu vaccine...should I be forced to get one?
Didn't think so.
The republicans are saying that people should be free to choose. While I wish they would take this tack with all issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.), it's hard to argue that we should allow the government to MANDATE what we put into our bodies. Personally, I've never gotten the flu vaccine...should I be forced to get one?
1
When the public health implications are as huge as they are in this issue, it's a different story altogether. Measles is one of the most communicable diseases we know of. Would you feel comfortable taking your 90 years old grandmother; your cancer patient who just went through chemo; or a newborn into a hospital where known or suspected cases of measles are being admitted in the waiting room?
Didn't think so.
Didn't think so.
The USA has a historical tradition of superstition and willful ignorance influencing policy. What, you thought things were different just because it's the 21st century.
1
Aren't we forgetting something? It's not what any of us think about vaccines. What do the Koch brothers think? They're the ones paying for political speech, right, so don't they deserve the last word on whether families should vaccinate their children?
6
The GOP is finally PRO-CHOICE. Is the mother allowed to decide to have her children vaccinated or must she have the agreement of the biological father too?
4
Rand Paul is an opthalmologist by training, which means he attended medical school, completed a residency, and possibly further training in eye diseases. Therefore he, like us all, cannot ignore the astounding reduction in childhood diseases and death that has been wrought by modern vaccine practices. For example, blindness due to bacterial meningitis has essentially been eradicated by the vaccines recommended for all infants and children. Once again, the Republicans, particularly the tea-party and libertarian fringe, have decided to jettison science, common sense, and compassion for the sake of a few votes, and at the expense of human life.
4
The problem is that we are becoming a society of historical illiterates. Maybe it’s time that history classes in elementary and high schools teach about the days before polio and small pox vaccines and when tuberculosis ran rampant in large cities. The circulation of rumors and half truths seem to purvey the internet and other social mediums.
While our government has a lot of faults it did do a good job of controlling and in most cases eliminating many childhood diseases. Now certain groups are in the process of undoing this in the name of personal freedom. It’s my belief that an individual’s personal freedom ends when it encroaches on the personal freedom and safety of another individual or society in general.
While our government has a lot of faults it did do a good job of controlling and in most cases eliminating many childhood diseases. Now certain groups are in the process of undoing this in the name of personal freedom. It’s my belief that an individual’s personal freedom ends when it encroaches on the personal freedom and safety of another individual or society in general.
4
When I was a child, we had to have certain vaccinations in order to attend public school. Why has that changed? How about we reinstitute that poiicy where it has changed?
6
Right, Republicans like Jenny McCarthy and California...
Parents.......is there anything they won't do for the good or bad of their child?
Will this issue become like disclosing your income taxes? The candidates will have to show whether they received standard immunizations or not? The Tea Party wants 'pure' candidates on the Right will they accept someone who falls for all that scientific mumbo jumbo and gobbly gook about immunizations?
1
The "delicate issue" the GOP has is simple. This is the party of great wealth. How do they persuade ordinary working people to vote for them? That's a real problem all right. They seem to be succeeding though.
Unfortunate that leading Republican presidential candidates don't understand that their rights end where the child’s rights begin.
Rand Paul's statement that he "owns" his children is very illuminating. He is apparently clueless that one is not allowed to put one’s children in danger without having the children taken away. Conservatives are generally abhorrent to the State removing children from their parents due to their Rand Paul-like belief that they “own” their children like furniture, but unfortunately in too many cases like this the State is the only one who will protect the rights of the child to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Children have as much right to a full long healthy life as their parents. People do not “own” each other, but even so, Person A "owning" Person B would not give Person A the right to negligently manslaughter-terminate the life of Person B.
Rand Paul's statement that he "owns" his children is very illuminating. He is apparently clueless that one is not allowed to put one’s children in danger without having the children taken away. Conservatives are generally abhorrent to the State removing children from their parents due to their Rand Paul-like belief that they “own” their children like furniture, but unfortunately in too many cases like this the State is the only one who will protect the rights of the child to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Children have as much right to a full long healthy life as their parents. People do not “own” each other, but even so, Person A "owning" Person B would not give Person A the right to negligently manslaughter-terminate the life of Person B.
4
“The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.” - Rand Paul
'Own'?
Does Mr Paul also 'own' his wife?
'Own'?
Does Mr Paul also 'own' his wife?
5
I have been amused (and disturbed) for decades by people who think that everything "natural" is good. Rattlesnakes, piranhas, and brown recluse spiders are natural, and do their part in the world, but humans are advised to stay clear of them. Measles, polio, pertussis, tetanus, etc., are natural, but we are better off avoiding them.
My opinion is that people who won't vaccinate themselves or their children are akin to those who are persuaded by the snake-oil vendors.
My opinion is that people who won't vaccinate themselves or their children are akin to those who are persuaded by the snake-oil vendors.
5
and of course, my personal favorite product of nature--poison ivy. Although the death's head mushroom comes in a close second.
1
Look back to 2008 when candidate Obama and Clinton and McCain said investigations into vaccinations and autism should be looked at....the science had already been decided...........how about an article about that!
Also, the rich Liberal in New York and Los Angeles have their kids in private schools and are anti vaccine......haw about an article about that!
Also, the rich Liberal in New York and Los Angeles have their kids in private schools and are anti vaccine......haw about an article about that!
1
Except that candidate Obama said no such thing. He acknowledge an *audience member* saying it. But he did not start going off about vaccines in Michele Bachmann 2012 primary fashion.
Yep, some of my fellow liberals - whose views on this issue I find unfathomable - may have a terror of vaccines and shun them. But Obama isn't one of those anti-vaxx fellow liberals.
Also, go back a couple of days and you'll find, for example, a much-commented upon article in the Times about anti-vaxx families, primarily in Marin County, CA. There's plenty of coverage; it only takes a moment of effort to find it.
Yep, some of my fellow liberals - whose views on this issue I find unfathomable - may have a terror of vaccines and shun them. But Obama isn't one of those anti-vaxx fellow liberals.
Also, go back a couple of days and you'll find, for example, a much-commented upon article in the Times about anti-vaxx families, primarily in Marin County, CA. There's plenty of coverage; it only takes a moment of effort to find it.
1
Freedom does not mean having the right to let your non-immunized child infect or perhaps kill my immune-compromised child who is not able to be immunized.
6
The science is clear; diets and exercise make people healthier. We can't trust the parents to make the right choice, government must intervene....
I get the distinct impression from reading some of these comments that people misunderstand the point that libertarians are trying to make about these vaccines. It's not that vaccines themselves are bad, but rather that the legislation that would be required to force parents to vaccinate their children would be a step too far down the road to totalarianism. If government can force an individual to do this, what is to stop it from interfering in other areas of our lives? There are other ways to get this message across to parents: get your children vaccinated, because if you don't, they will not be able to attend school, or participate in extracurricular activities, that sort of thing. It worked when I was in school, and I see no reason it wouldn't work now.
Now, don't get me wrong, I am no libertarian, I just happen to agree with them on this one small point.
Now, don't get me wrong, I am no libertarian, I just happen to agree with them on this one small point.
Yes, they shouldn't be required to use car seats, wear helmets, attend school or eschew genital mutilation. Any rules concerning the care of children and public health are a slippery slope to totalitarianism!
1
Yes. And please eliminate drunk driving laws. And stop sign and stop lights. And the FAA. All these needless government intervention in my life. I already feel like I am living in a totalitarian regime. The difference between us and North Korea is almost imperceptible.
2
I was wondering if you let the government give you a driving test.
Mr. Dean stated"...children are your property..". No, they are not. They are a treasure entrusted to you. They belong to you and you to them, but they are not property. You must make needed decisions until they are old enough to make good decisions for themselves. One essential decision is to protect them from illnesses such as measles. You have a moral responsibility to do so and to not turn your child into a piece of "property" that is a canvas for your ideology. You also owe a responsibility to the community part of which is to avoid providing a reservoir for an illness or illnesses that can be deadly but preventable. Sometimes people just need to get over themselves; they are not on the planet by themselves.
3
Gov. dean didn't say that. Sen. Rand Paul did. But otherwise I agree with your sentiments.
6
Bring back polio! Now there's are great campaign slogan. The return of polio is exactly what you'll see when immunization choice becomes the watchword.
5
It certainly works for the Taliban in Pakistan
2
You note that Republicans have difficulty reconciling "modern science" with their other beliefs. In the case of vaccines, the "modern science" which gives them such problems is science first used on patients in the 19th Century. The last time I checked, this is the 21st century. Republicans are in a sorry state they cannot accommodate even 19th century developments.
I think we reap what we sow. Our children get mostly horrible math and science education in our schools. They are taught that arts and humanities are somehow more important and that Science and Mathematics are something just for geeks. When this kind of disrespect for an important aspect of the human intellect is allowed to flourish, we will suffer the consequences of irrational thought.
I think we reap what we sow. Our children get mostly horrible math and science education in our schools. They are taught that arts and humanities are somehow more important and that Science and Mathematics are something just for geeks. When this kind of disrespect for an important aspect of the human intellect is allowed to flourish, we will suffer the consequences of irrational thought.
2
Why would any Republican be able to render an opinion on this or any other health issue? After all, they aren't scientists, right?
5
MMR vaccine is a public health issue, and should be treated as such. One's freedom of choice regarding whether to immunize is irrelevant. The measles virus is highly contagious and can be lethal for some. It is the height of selfishness to put not only one's own children at risk, but to also put everyone's children at risk. Considering immunization's balance of benefit vs risk, there is zero evidence of meaningful risk but great evidence of significant benefit, both to the individual and to the public.
7
1/1000 die of measles
1 in 68 gets autism
1 in 50 gets food allergies
you got to be a fool to think this is normal. something is causing it and until real studies are done to find the cause, you need to respect people's decision to not vaccinate.
1 in 68 gets autism
1 in 50 gets food allergies
you got to be a fool to think this is normal. something is causing it and until real studies are done to find the cause, you need to respect people's decision to not vaccinate.
1
Just like I'll respect people who throw their children in front of on-coming traffic.
The scientific evidence is crystal clear: vaccinations save lives and improve lives and can all but eradicate some diseases. The problem is the right of the government to require people to do something they don't want to do, even when it is as stupid as not vaccinating their children. The point break is instead of affecting only them, their decision will put their children and others at risk So while ridding a motorcycle without a helmet arguably only affects the rider, endangering the health of the community is and should be treated differently. Right now we're reaping the consequences of two phenomenon, ignorant and arrogant parents and illegal aliens sweeping into the country without any immunizations or examinations. I don't blame the first on the government as much as I do blame them for the second.
Of course, none if these ourptbreaks have been tied to illegal immigrants in any way, shape or form, and Latin American countries tend to have higher vaccination rates than we do, but hey, you cruise right on ahead.
3
Your wouldn't think that riding a motorcycle without a helmet was so innocuous if you were the one who had to clean that bloody, brain-splattered mess off the roadway.
1
And where do you get your statistics regarding inoculations in the countries south of our border? How reliable are they (the vaccine as well as the numbers) from countries that export their people?
To steal the words of someone else, Matt Lauer committed a "random act of journalism" this morning by calling you out for falsely inferring that "conservatives" are the primary anti-vaccinators.
1
Did Rand Paul just say that parents "own" their children?
What about your children's individual liberty Rand?
What if your children want a vaccine but you won't let them? Can they override you? I think not, if you own them.
Rand probably thinks it's okay to smoke in restaurants too. You know, that liberty thing that allows arrogant self-centered Republicans to blow carcinogens into your lungs and waive the flag telling the unwitting inhaler of said carcinogens that it is his personal liberty at stake and that the unwitting inhaler of carcinogens can go to hell.
Republican logic is ridiculous.
As Bobby Jindal said:
"We've got to stop being the stupid party. It's time for a new Republican Party that talks like adults," he said. "We had a number of Republicans damage the brand this year with offensive and bizarre comments. I'm here to say we've had enough of that."
What about your children's individual liberty Rand?
What if your children want a vaccine but you won't let them? Can they override you? I think not, if you own them.
Rand probably thinks it's okay to smoke in restaurants too. You know, that liberty thing that allows arrogant self-centered Republicans to blow carcinogens into your lungs and waive the flag telling the unwitting inhaler of said carcinogens that it is his personal liberty at stake and that the unwitting inhaler of carcinogens can go to hell.
Republican logic is ridiculous.
As Bobby Jindal said:
"We've got to stop being the stupid party. It's time for a new Republican Party that talks like adults," he said. "We had a number of Republicans damage the brand this year with offensive and bizarre comments. I'm here to say we've had enough of that."
4
It seems to me that conservative libertarians confuse the concepts of liberty and freedom. Our nation was founded on the principal of liberty to form our own government, collect our own taxes, and decide for ourselves the society we would fashion. But we do limit the idea of freedom.
We do not have the freedom to enter someone else's property and take from them something we want. We do not have the freedom to kill our neighbors because they are having a loud party.
We limit our freedoms as they come into conflict with the rights and freedoms of our neighbors. This is how we have decided to fashion our society. Those who don't wish to conform to these fashions are free to leave and establish their own society somewhere else.
We do not have the freedom to enter someone else's property and take from them something we want. We do not have the freedom to kill our neighbors because they are having a loud party.
We limit our freedoms as they come into conflict with the rights and freedoms of our neighbors. This is how we have decided to fashion our society. Those who don't wish to conform to these fashions are free to leave and establish their own society somewhere else.
4
As a childhood victim of polio and resident of New Jersey who spent a long time in an isolation ward watching kids die the position of the current governor of New Jersey is appalling. He puts out a statement to satisfy the fanatical right and then pulls it a bit back, having let the base know where he stands personally. As an adult I work with an organization that is close to ending polio, the main opposition being Islamist cousins of our far right evangelicals. We don't hesitate to call them out as 'terrorists' or 'fanatics' while our brand is labeled 'conservative' or 'libertarian'. Christie is a bloviator who is playing his game at the risk of lives. God knows what he would have done when the polio vaccine was announced.
8
Endangering other people should not be a personal choice.
9
This is an issue of leadership. Politicians have pandered to sensitive Americans about many issues and then complain that nothing changes. Well, do we want leaders or panderers? It seems most want the latter. In this case republicans, please step up and call out the anti-vaccination crowd for what they are.
1
Re: Ran Paul's comment that "Parents own the children." I never felt I "owned" my children. I tried to do what was best for them and always, always loved them but I never "owned" them.
2
Herd immunity article by PhD immunologist questions the efficacy and theory of herd immunity. http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/herd-immunity-myth-or-reality
She appears to be a complete quack; certainly, the thing you cited is right next ti an article declaring that frankincense is "more effective," than chemotherapy in kate-stage cancers.
Why doesn't she have a university ir hospital association, or oublished papers in acience?
Why doesn't she have a university ir hospital association, or oublished papers in acience?
3
I always look for my medical advice from former Playboy Playmates and morbidly obese men.
I used to vote Republican but these days it just amazes me how they find more and more stupid stances to take.
What's next? People should be able to drive without insurance so if they crash into someone and injure or kill them, they can hang the consequences on the people they crashed into? That's pretty much the same thing.
I used to vote Republican but these days it just amazes me how they find more and more stupid stances to take.
What's next? People should be able to drive without insurance so if they crash into someone and injure or kill them, they can hang the consequences on the people they crashed into? That's pretty much the same thing.
6
It has been interesting to watch the emergence of an ideology of Capitalist Absolutism ever since the collapse of the Cold War. Like its Bolshevik counterpart this ideology seems to have entered a vicious spiral, eliminating all supposed contradictions. It can now justify wars and torture, abrogations of its own legal and moral codes. And increasingly it opposes common standards of justice, electoral democracy, parliamentary debate, and social parity. Now it can no longer tolerate science or any standard that might "falsify" its ceaseless self-accumulation. The steady emergence of a pure Capitalist Anti-Science may be the symptom of a death spiral... at very least a serious pathology more dangerous than the measles.
4
I am a parent and am not against vaccines, however, I have known several friends and family members who had adverse reactions to vaccinations and this gave me pause when I became a parent. It seems that people want to put everything into the black/white category of "pro-vax" and "anti-vax" but it is not that simple.
One area that gave me pause was the ingredient list of several vaccines. I question why the MMR vaccine contains chick embryos, bovine serum, and human embryo cells (from miscarried or aborted fetuses). The polio vaccine is cultured on monkey kidney cells. I want to know why and for what reason these ingredients are used & why there aren't other options. Does this mean I will not vaccinate for these illnesses, no, but I am very uncomfortable with these ingredients.
Another area that gives me pause is giving a newborn baby a shot for Hepatitis B in the hospital the day they are born. Unless the mother has Hepatitis B, why are we vaccinating a newborn with a vaccine for a blood-borne, sexually transmitted disease? At that age, it seems to be an unnecessary onslaught to the immune system & would be more appropriate in early adolescence.
I hope people read and reply to my comment without having to place it in a black/white category. I think an open & vigorous dialogue needs to be had between parents, physicians, and pharmaceutical companies to address all concerns and ways to make improvements.
One area that gave me pause was the ingredient list of several vaccines. I question why the MMR vaccine contains chick embryos, bovine serum, and human embryo cells (from miscarried or aborted fetuses). The polio vaccine is cultured on monkey kidney cells. I want to know why and for what reason these ingredients are used & why there aren't other options. Does this mean I will not vaccinate for these illnesses, no, but I am very uncomfortable with these ingredients.
Another area that gives me pause is giving a newborn baby a shot for Hepatitis B in the hospital the day they are born. Unless the mother has Hepatitis B, why are we vaccinating a newborn with a vaccine for a blood-borne, sexually transmitted disease? At that age, it seems to be an unnecessary onslaught to the immune system & would be more appropriate in early adolescence.
I hope people read and reply to my comment without having to place it in a black/white category. I think an open & vigorous dialogue needs to be had between parents, physicians, and pharmaceutical companies to address all concerns and ways to make improvements.
3
Have you discussed any of your concerns with you pediatrician?
Could not agree with you more. We have never had a real debate on the issue.
1. Hep B isn't transmitted only sexually.
2. Do you have any idea what polio does to kods,mor what the stats were on deaths and cripplings?
3. the monkey kidneys and abirted fetus stuff is, to be polite, abject nonsense.
PLEASE, please, please, stop reading junk science. The CDC, NIH, and WHO all have excellent information of this stuff and easily available.
2. Do you have any idea what polio does to kods,mor what the stats were on deaths and cripplings?
3. the monkey kidneys and abirted fetus stuff is, to be polite, abject nonsense.
PLEASE, please, please, stop reading junk science. The CDC, NIH, and WHO all have excellent information of this stuff and easily available.
1
Parents don't "own" a child. They care for it until it is an adult. The child is protected by the state against all manner of abuse and that should include the failure to vaccinate.
The "Stupid Party" indeed.
The "Stupid Party" indeed.
1
As an elementary school teacher, I have a different perspective than some law makers. I watch how colds and flu spread through a classroom when kids come to school sick, and how one responsible parent keeping their child home could have reduced the risks for all the other students and their families. There are reasonable medical reasons why a child should not get vaccinated, but when other children are not vaccinated it puts the former at greater risk. Children need to be vaccinated if they are going to use public schools or attend large public gatherings. California and other states that have made opting out too easy need to have their laws superseded by a national law requiring children to be vaccinated with exemptions only for serious health reasons.
This isn't a matter of personal freedom, it is a matter of shared national defense against a terrible disease. Will they argue that driving speeds are a matter of personal freedom? Where does that logic end?
This isn't a matter of personal freedom, it is a matter of shared national defense against a terrible disease. Will they argue that driving speeds are a matter of personal freedom? Where does that logic end?
5
I don't get how unvaccinated children endanger the vaccinated ones. They should only endanger the other unvaccinated ones.
The BEST vaccine protects about 95% of the people who receive it. For something as contagious as Measles, that means even a vaccinated person has a nearly 5% chance of getting sick. This needs to be stated over and over again until it sinks in. We're all in this together, and, even if I do my best, your choices can have ill-effects on me.
Correction, Mike. If the vaccination is successful, i.e. antibodies are formed in sufficient amounts, then protection is essentially complete. In a low % of the cases, antibodies do not form, most likely because of production or storage issues that affect the vaccine. To avoid that, one can simply increase the number of booster shots from 1 to 2 or 3, or measure antibody titer during routine checkups. If the titer is low, then give another booster. Or, simpler, immunize adults as well routinely every 10 years. That will ensure the lowest overall failure rate.
The anti-science paranoia of the less enlightened segment of our society is clearly a danger for the public at large. The GOP attacks on science,research, education and common sense in general are the political equivalent of the measles epidemic.
5
What troubles me the most in the media presentation of this issue is the ridiculous notion that there is actually a "debate" about the efficacy, indeed, the public health imperative, of vaccinating children. The media is perpetuating the fantasy that there is a scientific or medical dispute about vaccinations when in fact there is none. Parents who refuse to vaccinate their children, or who insist upon "spacing vaccinations out" on some internet-based time line pose a national public health risk. There should be no exemptions at all, other than for verified medical conditions which preclude safe administration of vaccines. It is shocking that we continue to countenance parental abdication of medically and scientifically sound practices, and it is time to put an end to this stupidity. It is also time for the media to stop pretending that this is a credible "controversy".
7
I'd like to know why there are so many cases of autism and peanut allergy. The CDC will not do a double blind study of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children. The medical industry will not undertake a study that could discredit them. Without a doubt vaccines save lives. The question is how much harm do they do, and what is the risk/benefit ratio? You don't get anything for free, there is always a risk. We just don't know what that risk is because big pharma is afraid of the truth.
2
Who wants to be the first to enroll their kid in a study that could result in he or she getting the measles ? And what reputable company would want to put the child at risk?
We have had the experiment - pre-vaccine, measles was epidemic. After, the disease was pretty much eliminated.
We have had the experiment - pre-vaccine, measles was epidemic. After, the disease was pretty much eliminated.
The link between the MMR vaccine and autism has been discredited, but deference must be given to scientists (rocket type) like Jenny McCarthy. Rand Paul said he personally knows of "normal" people who became mentally ill after being vaccinated. I think his crowd would have developed issues without the vaccine. And did you know that most gay people have received the measles vaccine? There's got to be some causation there, right?
2
he didn't he personally "knows"; he said, he personally "heard ". big difference.. i heard that Martians introduced measles to takeover the world...
The last line in the 2nd paragraph made me slap my forehead in dismay. . . . "confront questions about whether it is in the public's interest to allow parents to decide for themselves" ????!!
Do we let parents decide whether or not kids should wear seat belts, sit in cars eats, refrain from lying in the middle of the street, carry guns to school, etc.?
Heck, we even enforce rules about what clothing is considered 'decent' for kids to wear to school, so what is the "question" about whether or not it is acceptable for some children to put other children at risk for disease?
Do we let parents decide whether or not kids should wear seat belts, sit in cars eats, refrain from lying in the middle of the street, carry guns to school, etc.?
Heck, we even enforce rules about what clothing is considered 'decent' for kids to wear to school, so what is the "question" about whether or not it is acceptable for some children to put other children at risk for disease?
5
Isn't it ironic that Christie and some other conservatives demand unwarranted quarantines of persons traveling from West Africa, even if there is no chance that they can spread Ebola, but then say it's permissible for parents to allow an unvaccinated child to expose others to another potentially deadly disease because of mistaken beliefs in junk science or outright propaganda. For example, children who have a compromised immune system, cannot be immunized, but they are very susceptible to a highly contagious disease like measles. Similarly, a pregnant woman exposed to measles, is at high risk of a miscarriage or giving birth to a child with severe congenital defects. The science is clear: Childhood vaccines are totally safe for the vast majority of children. Foregoing immunization not only puts the otherwise healthy unvaccinated child at risk, but also can be fatal to those rare children who cannot be immunized. This is a PUBLIC HEALTH issue that trumps the right to put others at risk. Parents who forego immunizations for a healthy child are then obligated to keep that child away from all others.
1
The GOP is now immaturely libertarian when it comes to the public health of children, but decidedly liberal when it comes to regulating banks and corporations. Why should anyone in this great country put faith in a party that effuses itself on to superstitious people who reject modern science and rational regulation?
2
Should there be personal exemptions for the laws that require putting your children in car seats?
4
car seats don't inject mercury or aluminum into your kids bloodstream
I never considered that this could end up being a political debate. As a conservative independent I feel strongly that vaccines should be required for all children. We have seat belt laws, drunk driving laws, now even health insurance laws, for the life of me I can't understand why there is not a law for this.
1
The current "patchwork" of state laws requiring vaccinations for entry into schools and colleges should be enacted on a federal level. If you don't want to vaccinate your kid, keep them home! Period!
2
It's uncomfortable for me to read headlines like "Debate on Measles Outbreak Proves Delicate Issue to GOP Field". By calling it a debate you are making a journalistic choice to sensationalize a story, perpetuating a myth that there are two sides to this and each deserve equal say. Parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids are not debating: They object to a set of facts and have chosen to respond by latching on to a false, discredited narrative. There is exactly as much a "debate" here as there is over the roundness of the Earth.
4
My Dad (a teacher) would say:
Your inability to understand and/or not believe the science, does not make it untrue.
Your inability to understand and/or not believe the science, does not make it untrue.
2
Once again, only from the party of science denial Zealots: "Gov. Chris Christie’s...he was quoted as saying that parents “need to have some measure of choice” about vaccinating their children against measles.
Really? Do we allow them some measure of choice in beating their children, using car seats and seat belts, giving them drugs or alcohol, or recklessly endangering them? No we do not. We have laws to protect children from danger including that which is perpetrated by their ignorant parents.
As to Senator Rand Paul MD, being annoyed that fellow physicians pushed him to vaccinate his kids, as far as I am concerned this just shows the incredible self centered arrogance of his political philosophies trumping facts and knowledge in favor of innuendo and totally false causal linkage nonsense.
Why would anyone choose to vote for either of these clowns, whose statements just help to feed the paranoid delusional thinking of the GOP that there is a conspiracy around every corner? The GOP really has become the party of celebrated willful ignorance and arrogant self righteous stupidity.
Really? Do we allow them some measure of choice in beating their children, using car seats and seat belts, giving them drugs or alcohol, or recklessly endangering them? No we do not. We have laws to protect children from danger including that which is perpetrated by their ignorant parents.
As to Senator Rand Paul MD, being annoyed that fellow physicians pushed him to vaccinate his kids, as far as I am concerned this just shows the incredible self centered arrogance of his political philosophies trumping facts and knowledge in favor of innuendo and totally false causal linkage nonsense.
Why would anyone choose to vote for either of these clowns, whose statements just help to feed the paranoid delusional thinking of the GOP that there is a conspiracy around every corner? The GOP really has become the party of celebrated willful ignorance and arrogant self righteous stupidity.
1
Please let's not allow the NY times to makes this another partisan issue. Both sides are divided, in fact, at least in California it is widely accepted that the most vocal anti-vaxxers are found in wealthy liberal neighborhoods.
1
It doesn't matter what the subject is, anything that involves science and proven fact based knowledge, the G.O.P. will have a problem with it. It didn't use to be that way, but with the reincarnation of the Flat Earth Society, AKA the tea party, it was inevitable.
I'm 71 years old and voted for the first time 50 years ago. I have always been a Republican, but if this is going to be a political issue in the next campaign and Republicans decide for "parents choice", they will not get my vote.
It is pandering, pure and simple and I loathe pandering. Plus, when the public health is at issue, this is not about "personal freedom".
I imagine these same anti-vaccination people are also not vaccinating their pets, thus exposing others to the risk of rabies. Idiocy...
It is pandering, pure and simple and I loathe pandering. Plus, when the public health is at issue, this is not about "personal freedom".
I imagine these same anti-vaccination people are also not vaccinating their pets, thus exposing others to the risk of rabies. Idiocy...
18
It's uncomfortable for me to read headlines like "Measles Outbreak Proves Delicate Issue to GOP Field". By calling it a debate you are making a journalistic choice to sensationalize a story, perpetuating a myth that there are two sides to this and each deserve equal say. Parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids are not debating: They object to a set of facts and have chosen to respond by latching on to a false, discredited narrative. There is exactly as much a "debate" here as there is over the roundness of the Earth.
1
Cancer and heart disease are the real epidemic. I believe the "toxic overload" is part of the reason. Stay clear of vaccines, especially those that contain mercury, fluoridated water, hormones in milk and beef, "healthy fish" that contains mercury from polluted oceans, tobacco and secondhand cigarette smoke. My neighbors poodle died at a young age from tumors all over his body. He religiously gave his dog an annual rabies shot. The apartment complex he lived in require a rabies certificate to be in line with local laws. Sure his poodle was going to get rabies and bite someone. Vaccines are big business for the doctors and pharmaceutical companies.
The long-term harm of vaccinations is real, not to overlook the short-term harm that they may do. It is best not to trust "experts" who have a financial interest in these toxic substances. Make up your own mind after studying the pros and cons. In general, I'm not in favor of vaccines.
The long-term harm of vaccinations is real, not to overlook the short-term harm that they may do. It is best not to trust "experts" who have a financial interest in these toxic substances. Make up your own mind after studying the pros and cons. In general, I'm not in favor of vaccines.
1
This shouldn't even be a debate…healthy scepticism is one thing, but conflating liberty and values with stupidity is just appalling. Hence weird right wing Republicans, like conservatives here in Canada, misconstrue Scientific reality with public opinion. It is obvious the world is getting warmer, it is obvious vaccines have worked for the past 50 years, it is obvious denying either fact requires a willingness to deliberately suspend intelligent thought. And, yet, this debate keeps happening. What nonsense.
"Parents OWN the children"?
That misstatement is going to come back to haunt Paul - and well it should!
That misstatement is going to come back to haunt Paul - and well it should!
2
you're assuming it was a misstatement......
2
I can't wait to tell my kids that I own them.
2
The vaccine "debate" is a great example of something called "fairness bias." When presented with two sides of an argument, we tend to automatically assume they carry equal weight. For this particular issue, it's important to remember that there are not two equal sides to this debate. ALL parents should vaccinate their children if they can.
And to all of those people claiming that vaccines cause autism: even if that were true (it's not), I would MUCH rather have a child living with autism than let my child die from measles, whooping cough, or any other preventable disease.
And to all of those people claiming that vaccines cause autism: even if that were true (it's not), I would MUCH rather have a child living with autism than let my child die from measles, whooping cough, or any other preventable disease.
4
"The national debate on measles and immunization poses a challenge for the Republican Party’s 2016 presidential hopefuls, who must reconcile modern science with the skepticism of their core conservative voters."
Translated: GOP wannabes must choose between those who are proud to remain uneducated ignoramuses and the rest of us who prefer to live in reality-land and take advantage of all the available medical, scientific and technological advances.
Translated: GOP wannabes must choose between those who are proud to remain uneducated ignoramuses and the rest of us who prefer to live in reality-land and take advantage of all the available medical, scientific and technological advances.
1
Craven politicians putting children at risk in order to pander to a group of like-minded theorists with absolutely no solid science behind them. They need to revisit footage of the children who got polio in the 1930s and 1940s and early 1950s, walking with leg braces and crutches, never to run or jump again. Or what smallpox looks like. Or diphtheria.
the arrogance is really tiresome. over the past 10 years in the US, the vaccine has been infinitely more deadly than measles (0 deaths from measles, 108 deaths from measles vaccine). Those who don't accept that there are risks with either choice are willfully ignorant. In a free country it would be best for parents to have an informed choice.
2
What a willfully ignorant comparison. The reason that there have been no deaths from measles in the last 10 years is BECAUSE OF THE VACCINE. If you want to compare risks of vaccinating vs not vaccinating, compare the number of deaths from the vaccine to number of deaths from measles before the vaccine. In any 10 year, pre-vaccine period, it was much higher than 108.
So the real question is, do we want 300-500 measles deaths per year or 1-2 vaccine deaths per year?
So the real question is, do we want 300-500 measles deaths per year or 1-2 vaccine deaths per year?
Parents own their children? Funny position for a Libertarian.
No one owns another human being. Parents are responsible for their children and that responsibility includes vaccinating them.
No one owns another human being. Parents are responsible for their children and that responsibility includes vaccinating them.
1
Most if not all posters here did not grow up or live in a 3rd world country or in a time where loved ones around them were dying from diseases. That is the irony. If you look at the World Health Organization’s statistics on lives saved due to vaccines you might open your eyes a bit to the fact that vaccines save lives. Are their possible risks to them? Sure there are. I have read comments from different news sites regarding this debate. Almost everybody who is elderly knew somebody who died from or were adversely affected by a vaccine preventable disease.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/
Since 1980 yearly deaths from measles has dropped from over 2 million per year to around 140000 all due to vaccinations. Do the math. BTW the WHO is a nonprofit with nothing to gain.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/
Since 1980 yearly deaths from measles has dropped from over 2 million per year to around 140000 all due to vaccinations. Do the math. BTW the WHO is a nonprofit with nothing to gain.
It's amazing that Tennessee physicians, turned Republican Senators can make such irresponsible pronouncements. Remember a few years back, when then Senate majority leader, Bill Frist "diagnosed" Terri Schiavo as not being in a persistent vegetative state and agreed with major Republicans (including another putative Republican presidential candidate) that state and federal legislation should be enacted to force Ms. Schiavo to receive tube feeding and any other extraordinary means required to "continue her life", despite the expressed (and adjudicated) wishes of her husband? NOW, suddenly, the specter of individual rights (which clearly didn't obtain in the Schiavo case) prompts Gov. Christie and others to support "parental choice" for an issue that can quickly become a public health crisis, and panders to the anti-scientific and least thoughtful aspect of the electorate. I suppose the beginning tenet of the Hippocratic oath ("First, do no harm") becomes optional, once one trades in a shingle as an ophthalmologist for a springboard to power.
Measels is God's way of punishing hetero sexual christians for breeding. It's a kind of very late term abortion. Like the Flood was. God's pro choice.
I am old enough to remember when I was kept in the house for a whole summer because there was a polio outbreak. I was too young for kindergarten, but schools closed early, the parks and local beaches were closed, and everyone stayed home. Two years later we ALL got polio vaccinations courtesy of the government. No one I know of who is my age had polio, although I have a good friend who is a few years older who did. I hope it doesn't have to come to that extreme before people understand why vaccines were developed in the first place.
1
I am waiting for Senator Paul, Governor Christie and other Republicans to explain to us why parents should have a say in whether the earth is flat or not.
Typhoid Mary is alive, well (for now) and active in Tea Party politics.
I was not breastfed because when I was born pediatricians told new mothers that feeding their infants with formula was far superior to their own milk. The idea that man’s intellect not only understands nature but can and should “conquer” it is arrogant folly. This is evident in both the degradation of our external environment, but also of our internal environment, especially in healthcare.
This is the case with vaccinations, or at least the present mandated vaccination schedule of 25 mandated vaccinations from birth to 15 months. The direct injection of attenuated pathogens directly into the bloodstream initiates an entirely different cascade of immune reactions than the natural process of exposure. The latter matures human immune systems and bestows true immunity; the former disregulates the immune system over-stimulating the humoral functions at the expense of developing the cell-mediated side. The present epidemic of autoimmune diseases has strong epidemiological associations with the expanded vaccination schedule.
DNA was not discovered for some years after the time I was not being breastfed. The inevitable progress of science proving that that which we thought was the truth was wrong, or at least inaccurate, will never stop. We are the product of and an infinitesimal part of nature. We should not attempt the unnatural and impossible task of creating a completely sterile, pathogen-free terrain. That will have the same result as putting fish in distilled water.
This is the case with vaccinations, or at least the present mandated vaccination schedule of 25 mandated vaccinations from birth to 15 months. The direct injection of attenuated pathogens directly into the bloodstream initiates an entirely different cascade of immune reactions than the natural process of exposure. The latter matures human immune systems and bestows true immunity; the former disregulates the immune system over-stimulating the humoral functions at the expense of developing the cell-mediated side. The present epidemic of autoimmune diseases has strong epidemiological associations with the expanded vaccination schedule.
DNA was not discovered for some years after the time I was not being breastfed. The inevitable progress of science proving that that which we thought was the truth was wrong, or at least inaccurate, will never stop. We are the product of and an infinitesimal part of nature. We should not attempt the unnatural and impossible task of creating a completely sterile, pathogen-free terrain. That will have the same result as putting fish in distilled water.
It's time for our leaders to lead. Tell the voters the truth. The health risks of not getting the vaccines are serious.
This is so predictable. GOP Politicians live in a world where up is down and black is white. Facts are meaningless to them unless then can garner more votes. How sad that we have lost statesmen with integrity, and ethics have been lost almost entirely. This is precisely why congress has an approval rating in the single digits.
Reconciling modern science? You mean science that's been so well established and universally praised for over a half century? We might as well be debating that bacteria cause disease or that atoms exist at this point.
1
Personal choice? Why not drinking and driving too? One could easily argue, "It's my right to a little buzz and I know when I've had too much". Personal choice, no? "Don't cut in on my rights, never mind the jeopardy I put others in." No?
5
Human nature doesn't allow for unanimous consent, and obstinance is a form of protection from tyranny. America is especially repulsed by mass conformity. The illusion of uniqueness fashions the American dream. Perhaps the measles will respect our choices, and not infect the more nonconforming and patriotic hosts. Of course well have to add one more wounded soldier to the founding drummer, fifer, and flag bearer trio: one with measles.
1
Vaccination might prove a delicate issue for many riding in the clown car that is the GOP field of candidates, but I won't be delicate in my take.
In its zeal to essentially be against ANYTHING that promotes the greater public and societal good, the GOP for years has deliberately tended and enabled a culture of know-nothingness purely for crass political exploitation, and now it has come back to bite them.
But of course, that doesn't stop fools like Rand Paul to irresponsibly double down on the GOP/libertarian claptrap and keep pandering to ignorance.
And this country could be so much better than what these GOP idiots have in store for it. It makes a person want to weep.
In its zeal to essentially be against ANYTHING that promotes the greater public and societal good, the GOP for years has deliberately tended and enabled a culture of know-nothingness purely for crass political exploitation, and now it has come back to bite them.
But of course, that doesn't stop fools like Rand Paul to irresponsibly double down on the GOP/libertarian claptrap and keep pandering to ignorance.
And this country could be so much better than what these GOP idiots have in store for it. It makes a person want to weep.
There's also the chemist and parent who refuses to accept the status quo and look at the real science over the checkbook science infiltrating the news. That's me, with 3 healthy, UNVACCINATED KIDS. If you look at the clusters of outbreaks closely, you'll see them happening among the VACCINATED. Reflective of this fact, The New England Journal of Medicine shows the overt failure of the herd immunity scam and vaccines, publishing that, "An outbreak of measles occurred among adolescents in Corpus Christi, Texas, in the spring of 1985, even though vaccination requirements for school attendance had been thoroughly enforced."
...It's a fact. And the peer reviewed medical journal Clinical Infectious Diseases sounded the alarm, too, when researchers wrote, "Other problems arise because herd immunity is not the same as biologic (immunologic) immunity; individuals protected only by indirect herd effects remain fully susceptible to infection, should they ever be exposed."
Besides, if herd immunity worked, natural immunity - from non-vaxxed - would impart it as well!
If we keep using this outdated theory to argue in favor of vaccinations, then why not make a vaccine for every infection known to man, mandate it, and just start stabbing the hell out of ourselves, forever, in the name of herd immunity?
...It's a fact. And the peer reviewed medical journal Clinical Infectious Diseases sounded the alarm, too, when researchers wrote, "Other problems arise because herd immunity is not the same as biologic (immunologic) immunity; individuals protected only by indirect herd effects remain fully susceptible to infection, should they ever be exposed."
Besides, if herd immunity worked, natural immunity - from non-vaxxed - would impart it as well!
If we keep using this outdated theory to argue in favor of vaccinations, then why not make a vaccine for every infection known to man, mandate it, and just start stabbing the hell out of ourselves, forever, in the name of herd immunity?
Thanks for demonstrating your side's complete lack of scientific understanding.
3
You would be singing a different tune about vaccines if you lived or grew up in a 3rd world country or in a time where loved ones around you were dying from diseases. That is the irony you think you are insulated. You take your children's health for granted. If you look at the World Health Organization’s statistics on lives saved due to vaccines you might open your eyes a bit to the fact that vaccines save lives. Are their possible risks to them? Sure there are. I have read comments from different news sites regarding this debate. Almost everybody who is elderly knew somebody who died from or were adversely affected by a vaccine preventable disease.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/
Since 1980 yearly deaths from measles has dropped from over 2 million per year to around 140000 all due to vaccinations. Do the math. BTW the WHO is a nonprofit with nothing to gain.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/
Since 1980 yearly deaths from measles has dropped from over 2 million per year to around 140000 all due to vaccinations. Do the math. BTW the WHO is a nonprofit with nothing to gain.
1
Do you realize that you just destroyed your own argument for not vaccinating your children with your own quotes? Your own children are protected only by the fact that people around them have been vaccinated and are unlikely to expose your children to measles, mumps or rubella. That is "herd immunity" in direct practice. Be thankful that your kids are healthy thanks to the wise choice made by other parents in your community to vaccinate their children and protect yours.
4
This is going to be one of those idiotic debates that will actually cause more harm than good.
Republicans just left of the fringe right who might normally vaccinate their children without complaint will probably stop just because liberals want them to.
On the other hand, liberals just right of the lunatic left who don't vaccinate their children will probably start just because conservatives don't want them to.
So I guess it'll all even out in the end.
Republicans just left of the fringe right who might normally vaccinate their children without complaint will probably stop just because liberals want them to.
On the other hand, liberals just right of the lunatic left who don't vaccinate their children will probably start just because conservatives don't want them to.
So I guess it'll all even out in the end.
1
Another example of selfishness disguised as distrust of government. These parents are putting other people's children at risk. That's the whole point of "herd immunity". Saying "I should be able to do whatever I want with my children/family/money/business is just another way of denying the Social Contract that we ALL depend on to survive and have livable communities. We are in this together, like it or not. And, btw, who will pay the bills when your child gets Measles? Your insurance company? That means other citizens will still be absorbing the costs of your foolishness.
I'm old enough to have had Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Whooping Cough, and Chicken Pox. I don't recommend them.
I'm old enough to have had Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Whooping Cough, and Chicken Pox. I don't recommend them.
1
This isn't about measles. It isn't about vaccines.
The GOP's stance here is bedrock anti-empiricism. It's an echo of every anti-empiricist argument they have made for centuries. If they admit that there is any such thing in the first place as an irrefutable fact based on evidence-based reasoning, then they can’t obstruct, delay, and exploit an issue to their advantage.
This is how they argued for slavery. This is how they argued against votes for women and the ERA. This is how they fought Civil Rights. This is also how they rewrite history to say that they were on the side of justices in all those battles.
Tactically, “teach the controversy” on any subject buys time. Meanwhile, they can’t afford a loss on the slightest, most obvious issue. This fight over vaccines, lost to empirical reasoning, inevitably means accelerating losses on much bigger issues for them. They can’t afford to have their fraudulent certainties over gay marriage, lower taxes, climate change or social equality tested by empirical means, so they forestall the tests by attacking the testing protocol itself.
They are defending immorality with insanity.
The GOP's stance here is bedrock anti-empiricism. It's an echo of every anti-empiricist argument they have made for centuries. If they admit that there is any such thing in the first place as an irrefutable fact based on evidence-based reasoning, then they can’t obstruct, delay, and exploit an issue to their advantage.
This is how they argued for slavery. This is how they argued against votes for women and the ERA. This is how they fought Civil Rights. This is also how they rewrite history to say that they were on the side of justices in all those battles.
Tactically, “teach the controversy” on any subject buys time. Meanwhile, they can’t afford a loss on the slightest, most obvious issue. This fight over vaccines, lost to empirical reasoning, inevitably means accelerating losses on much bigger issues for them. They can’t afford to have their fraudulent certainties over gay marriage, lower taxes, climate change or social equality tested by empirical means, so they forestall the tests by attacking the testing protocol itself.
They are defending immorality with insanity.
6
It should come as no surprise that Rand Paul and Chris Christie now seem to be supporting the anti-vaxxers, since the President made some statements strongly in favor of vaccination a couple of days ago.
when I was a little kid, a thousand years ago, the polio vaccine had just been invented, so the concept of anyone being "anti" vaccination is as foreign to me as anything could possibly be.
when I was a little kid, a thousand years ago, the polio vaccine had just been invented, so the concept of anyone being "anti" vaccination is as foreign to me as anything could possibly be.
17
the government doesn't have the right to tell us what to put in our mouths or in our bodies.
The CDC claims that the measles virus was eradicated in the US around the year 2000. Wonder what has changed since then?
It's one thing to be ignorant, but quite another when you put other people in harm's way because of your ignorance. To an infant who has not yet been immunized, or a child with a weakened immune system due to illness, you are risking their lives with an exposure to measles. This is not about personal freedom and it shouldn't be about politics, either. Is there any issue today that can escape without being tarred by the brush of politics? Nowadays, even movies are not without political overtones.
2
It would be a different matter if opposition to the vaccine were rooted in clear and strong religious conviction—as it is when (for instance) Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions. In such cases, opposition to treatment has a strong First Amendment basis.
It would also be different if the scientific community did not uequivocally testify that the vaccinations were both safe and effective. If opposition to the vaccine had even a modicum of scientific respectability, then too the choice should be left to the individual or the responsible adult.
But lacking any credible intra- or extra-scientific arguments against the vaccine, and given the very strong reasons in its favor, those who oppose the state mandate hold no trump cards at all. Their position is indefensible.
It would also be different if the scientific community did not uequivocally testify that the vaccinations were both safe and effective. If opposition to the vaccine had even a modicum of scientific respectability, then too the choice should be left to the individual or the responsible adult.
But lacking any credible intra- or extra-scientific arguments against the vaccine, and given the very strong reasons in its favor, those who oppose the state mandate hold no trump cards at all. Their position is indefensible.
2
A parent who refuses to vaccinate their child is recklessly endangering the child's life. That is a crime and should not be permitted.
5
A question of freedom, the answer to which is 'Parents own the children'?
What a very strange response for a Libertarian. Perhaps the Senator is not so dyed in the wool as he would have us believe?
What a very strange response for a Libertarian. Perhaps the Senator is not so dyed in the wool as he would have us believe?
2
Anyone in the United States should be free to choose to vaccinate or not. But anyone not vaccinated should be excluded from public schools, public hospitals, should not take any sort of public transportation, including airplanes, they should have their own room (the "non-vacs" room) in restaurants. No cinema, sports events or any other public gatherings where they could be a danger to others. They would, of course, need to wear a "non-vans" pin or an arm band so any other member of the public would know their status from about 20 feet. Etc. Etc.
2
In the video report Matt Lauer and the physician trying to end an interview and Lauer's efforts to say the issue is controversial and the physician saying no it isn't. Then trying to over speak the physician saying the issue remains controversial and the physician saying no its not: get your kids vaccinated. The problem of sciences probabilistic rhetoric and the news medias trying to keep a story alive make room for people like Michelle Bachmann to promote ignorance for political purposes.
7
To those who love to just hit on Rand Paul here:
You just don't understand the man. He is the most sensible of the entire group. First, look at the facts: He has immunized his own kids, because he understands the importance of immunization. Second, he conveys that he understands those people, who feel run over by the system and a mob that simply belittles them, without explaining the facts on a level basis.
That's what I call a skilled politician. He leads by example and has understanding for those who may not want to follow him blindly. I like him more and more every day.
He probably will get more people off the anti-immunization bandwagon by his sympathetic response and positive example than all the denigration and scoffing of most of the commenters here.
What counts is getting immunization rates up, not finding another hot button issue on which to whip up emotions and polarize the American people further.
You just don't understand the man. He is the most sensible of the entire group. First, look at the facts: He has immunized his own kids, because he understands the importance of immunization. Second, he conveys that he understands those people, who feel run over by the system and a mob that simply belittles them, without explaining the facts on a level basis.
That's what I call a skilled politician. He leads by example and has understanding for those who may not want to follow him blindly. I like him more and more every day.
He probably will get more people off the anti-immunization bandwagon by his sympathetic response and positive example than all the denigration and scoffing of most of the commenters here.
What counts is getting immunization rates up, not finding another hot button issue on which to whip up emotions and polarize the American people further.
This is not a political issue, a red vs blue issue, or a liberal vs conservative issue. This is a PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE, which should trump all! These vaccines contain no live virus that can spread the disease. They are "attenuated", which means the part that allows the virus to reproduce and spread has been inactivated. The only risk to the vaccine is the risk of an allergic reaction, which is the risk with every single drug you take. For people who have allergies to components of the vaccine - eggs, for one - they are eligible for a medical exemption. The physician who linked the vaccine to autism in his study has been totally discredited - he made it all up! For those parents whose children were diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum, you have my deepest sympathies. But just because they were diagnosed after receiving the vaccine doesn't mean the vaccine caused it. Science is still science; just because you don't believe it doesn't make it any less true. Yes, scientific knowledge is changing all the time. But until there are repeatable, peer-reviewed studies with significant scientific rigor to prove otherwise, get your kids immunized!
2
Rand Paul - finally a GOP big shot who does not claim "I am not a scientist." Unfortunately, Sen. Paul's science exploits the worst fears of people in the anti-vax and other anti-science groups, even some people who are on the fence. His libertarian view in this matter is not Live and Let Live, but Live and Let Die.
Imagine someone like this running for and possibly gaining the Presidency.
Imagine someone like this running for and possibly gaining the Presidency.
4
While I believe absolutely that children should be vaccinated to prevent the spread of diseases such as measles, I'm a bit surprised to hear that months-old babies and toddlers are being vaccinated. I remember receiving any number of vaccinations as a child, but that's the point. I REMEMBER. I remember being vaccinated right before I started kindergarten, and because my birthday was a month later than the age cutoff, my parents decided to wait until the following year to send me instead of enrolling me before I turned 5.
Why are babies and toddlers being vaccinated with multiple vaccines well before they enter school, and why aren't vaccines spaced out?
Why are babies and toddlers being vaccinated with multiple vaccines well before they enter school, and why aren't vaccines spaced out?
1
I am over 50 and my mother kept the records of my vaccinations, some of which took place when I was an infant and too young to remember. Chances are, you don't remember some of the vaccinations because you were too young to remember them.
2
Asking a politician about a medical issue is a lot like asking your doctor about how to fix potholes or improve tax collection rates. You might get luck and get a good answer, but as likely as not, you are going to get an uninformed response.
4
Just when I thought politicians in general, and Republicans in very particular, couldn't sink lower in pandering for votes...2015 brings a new low-water mark. I find it absolutely sickening -- emotionally and perhaps physically -- that any pol would resort to endorsing ignorance and superstition to get elected.
4
Well, if the GOP is more interested in votes than the welfare of the citizenry and are knowingly willing to sacrifice the health of their own constituents, what more can be said except God help us!
4
Very nice to point out that Rand is a doctor. Too bad that doesn't make him a clear, rational thinker. The issue, doctor, is not about who has the right, the government or the parents. The issue, is public health and the rather simple science behind that concept, public health. See, it only works if everyone does it. So, as an American citizen, I actually have a greater right to insist that everyone immunizes, and the government can make sure that happens, because it protects the much larger whole, America, the general public, than your insistence that the most important thing is the individual. Oh, and you got your kids immunized too. Hypocrite.
4
So according to Republicans a woman has no right to choose when it comes to reproductive decisions, but after the child is born she can put it's life at risk by choosing not to immunize? Ah the irony. Or should I say the hypocrisy?
Let's face it, Christie and Rand are pandering to the least well-informed and most ignorant in America in order to get elected, yet they are supported financially by the most affluent 0.5% of the population. And it will be those affluent individuals who benefit most from a Republican Congress and a Republican presidency. Wake up ye "unwashed masses" you are supporting the very individuals who keep you in the dark via unsound fiscal policy and elimination of government spending on social services and infra-structure.
Let's face it, Christie and Rand are pandering to the least well-informed and most ignorant in America in order to get elected, yet they are supported financially by the most affluent 0.5% of the population. And it will be those affluent individuals who benefit most from a Republican Congress and a Republican presidency. Wake up ye "unwashed masses" you are supporting the very individuals who keep you in the dark via unsound fiscal policy and elimination of government spending on social services and infra-structure.
5
Ms. Clinton has illustrated an important point. Common understandings are often wrong. The sky is, in fact, not blue.
1
When will these brilliant people start insisting that our schools teach that the world is flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth?
2
it's a problem americans have which is unique to western democracies----how to corral the medieval vote.....
6
Next up:
Does 1+1=2 ?
Our guests will be Rand Paul and Bertrand Russell. Please stay tuned.
Does 1+1=2 ?
Our guests will be Rand Paul and Bertrand Russell. Please stay tuned.
1
Way to go, New York Times, spin this Whole Foods/Prius/Hipster issue into, of course, an attack on the GOP. "Wealthy L.A. Schools' Vaccination Rates Are as Low as South Sudan's" reads this headline from the September issue of the Atlantic. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/wealthy-la-schools-vac...
And there are NO Republicans in these California neighborhoods, the people there are far too rich.
And there are NO Republicans in these California neighborhoods, the people there are far too rich.
1
No one is talking about the political affiliation of anti-vaccination parents. The article is about Republican officials who are promoting this dangerous nonsense.
2
The right at war with science...AGAIN?
Vaccinations are bad, climate change isn't happening--and if it is, human behaviors has nothing to do with it, evolution is no more valid than creationism... Why is it that their views seem more and more like something out of the Dark Ages, fear, and superstition?
And "choice" as their buzz-term of choice...also AGAIN? Remember when they were all about freedom of "choice" to smoke? (Because they claimed there was no proven link between smoking and cancer!)
But of course in their world, "choice" doesn't extend to a woman's freedom to choose birth-control or abortion! Of the choice of a suffering, terminally ill person to end his/her won life!
Vaccinations are bad, climate change isn't happening--and if it is, human behaviors has nothing to do with it, evolution is no more valid than creationism... Why is it that their views seem more and more like something out of the Dark Ages, fear, and superstition?
And "choice" as their buzz-term of choice...also AGAIN? Remember when they were all about freedom of "choice" to smoke? (Because they claimed there was no proven link between smoking and cancer!)
But of course in their world, "choice" doesn't extend to a woman's freedom to choose birth-control or abortion! Of the choice of a suffering, terminally ill person to end his/her won life!
5
This is insanity. It reads almost like one of those cautionary science fiction short stories we used to see in the pulp magazines. The society grown so used to debate that it allowed itself to burn out from a disease while politicians debate the freedom to die from it. Isn't it bad enough that we've politicized climate change, energy and infrastructure? I could at least understand that because it has such long range impacts and so much money is at stake (for themselves) politicians would be wont to kick that can down the road. But immunization against a known, defeatable disease? What's next, we allow people to forego polio vaccination? There's one way to describe this: we're idiots. Idiots for electing politicians who are so foolish as to ignore science so that they can "play" to their base. These politicians are detestable creatures who deserve our scorn, not our votes.
2
About two seconds after Rand Paul or Gov. Christie or any of the others talk about personal rights and vaccinations, the reporters need to ask how they feel about the right to drive drunk. We could come up with a long list of dangerous, irresponsible behaviors and nail them down on each and every one.
4
The flu kills far far more Americans than measles. Flu vaccine should be mandated for all people living in this country.
Jeb Bush vetoed a Florida highway safety law - 'Keep right Except to Pass" passed by a GOP legislature, common in many states because it infringed on personal choice - forget safety of other motorists. Yet he had the state enter into the Terry Shiavo case against a family's most difficult decisions. Gov. Christie wanted everybody traveling from West Africa quarantined - but deadly measles will be ala carte even if others catch it. The GOP is so inherently inconsistent and pandering...but so are all their other policies. If families can choose to let their children catch diseases that can be spread to others, why can't families make choices about abortion which impacts only their own family? Their education and tax policies are just as inconsistent & looney.
5
Jeb Bush's horrible interference in the family of Terry Schiavo horrified me at the time. I immediately wrote out a will, got a power of attorney, health care directive, gave copies to my kids and sat them down and told them what I wanted.
A "delicate issue"? There is no debate here. There is no "issue". This is a matter of fact. The measles vaccine had, until the appearance of Dr. Jenny, virtually wiped out measles in the US. If any politician wavers in their support of proven, life saving public health measures they are proving themselves to either be dangerously ignorant or so completely without scruples or conscience that they are unfit for public office. I'm sure many of the parents who are opting out were vaccinated themselves and as a result never had the measles. Or chicken pox. Or mumps. Or rubella. Or polio. There is large, indisputable body of research and solid facts that document the efficacy and safety of vaccinations. Your personal beliefs don't trump facts. I might believe that the earth is flat, but that doesn't make it so. We don't all get to create our own reality, especially regarding issues of public health. Because this is not a decision like whether to you'll circumcise your little boy. That affects no one but him. Fail to vaccinate him and you are endangering his health & everyone he has contact with. That's where your rights stop. You have no right to endanger my life or the well being of anyone else. Let's stop acting like this is some sort of lifestyle choice. Politicians are sucking up to these upper middle class helicopter parents to get their money & votes. If they were poor, the child welfare authorities would have already moved in and taken their kids away.
2
This is a debate? Not get measles shots/ What's next, not get polio shots? Or how about no whopping cough shots or diphtheria shots or tetanus shots? How about doing away with flue shots and antibiotics while we are at it/ Stop chlorinating the water and effective roll back every advancement in public heath of the last century?
The idea that I can go out in public is get infected with a disease, which can be stopped by a simple vaccination is appalling. When i was growing up, there was no debate on getting shots. It was required by my grade school and my college. I even received booster shots, when need be.
The idea that parents can "opt out" and politicians supporting the ability of "opt out" is pure insanity. Measles was eradicated from the Us; it is now back. What will happen if smallpox rears its ugly head again? OR, how about an Ebola outbreak or worse?
If someone gets a disease, like measles, they should be quarantined. No one should be exempt from getting shots, except fro health reasons. Religious reasons does not count.
The idea that I can go out in public is get infected with a disease, which can be stopped by a simple vaccination is appalling. When i was growing up, there was no debate on getting shots. It was required by my grade school and my college. I even received booster shots, when need be.
The idea that parents can "opt out" and politicians supporting the ability of "opt out" is pure insanity. Measles was eradicated from the Us; it is now back. What will happen if smallpox rears its ugly head again? OR, how about an Ebola outbreak or worse?
If someone gets a disease, like measles, they should be quarantined. No one should be exempt from getting shots, except fro health reasons. Religious reasons does not count.
5
It never ceases to amaze me how the GOP looks for peripheral issues to try and take Americans' attention away from things that truly matter like income inequality! This issue is nothing more than the GOP saying that big bad government is intruding on God-fearing Americans in the way they raise their children! This is truly sickening! If you don't want to vaccinate your children you need to keep them home, home school them and make sure they don't come in contact with vaccinated(i.e. the vast majority of children)! I keep trying to find good things about the GOP and a reason to vote for them but so far they keep convincing me not to!!!
2
The only philosophical issue here is if you believe in a civil society where we all give up certain rights for the greater good. The vaccination issue is not akin to a big brother/nanny state problem coercing people into lifestyles or choices which they prefer to make themselves and for which they alone will suffer the consequences. Failure to vaccinate allows highly transmissable and potentially fatal infections to gain a foothold and place those who cannot receive vaccine (immunosuppressed, too young, adverse reactions) at major risk while at the same time allowing a free ride for vaccine refusers who stand to gain protection from herd immunity which has been paid by those opting to vaccinate and assume the tiny chance of adverse reactions. At its core it is immoral, ignorant and selfish and the unvaccinated by choice should be isolated from the greater community. Life is chock full of risks and unavoidable, the math is unassailable when it comes to vaccines that they protect and minimize human misery and suffering.
2
The fundamental issue is neither the pandering, hypocritical, cowardly politics of the likes of Paul and Christie but, rather, why so many otherwise intelligent people believe that the danger of vaccines is greater than the danger of disease. I think it essentially boils down to cult behavior, a retreat from the complexities of the modern world into the certainty of simplification. While this is much more common on the Right, it is also evident on the Left.
To an unfortunately large degree, people do not form their views on the basis of evidence; to the contrary, the "evidence" they see and select is more often the product of their already established view of life, frequently a projection of hope rather than reality. Thus, there is a widespread tendency to to confuse the "is" with the "ought", to confuse how the world functions with how we wish it would function.
As to the refusal to vaccinate and political hypocrisy, one might suggest a new bumper sticker: "It's not a choice; it's a WMD."
7
As a parent who did vaccinate all three of my children and does have an autistic son, I will tell you that vaccinations didn't cause his autism and that if I had to decide all over again to vaccinate or not, I would vaccinate. I will also add that I'm frustrated by all the political pandering, money and media attention that is wasted on this supposed autism/vaccination link. It is time and attention that we could use to help kids like my son live better fuller lives. My son has his obstacles, but he also has great strengths and if given the support, would do well. If more people ( and politicians) turned their attention away from this witch hunt and towards helping these kids, I'm sure we could all make our communities a better place.
9
On some level, I have come to expect this sorts of comments from the majority of the political field. It is Mr. Paul's comments, however, that disappoint me the most. As a physician, he has a responsibility to uphold the evidence-informed recommendations of the medical field, and that he chooses to exploit the fears and uncertainty of American parents for his own perceived political gain is beyond absurd.
2
Fear vs Science. Don Imus' wife and other nutjob celeberties spread fear and otherwise bright educated parents acted like idiots and failed to protect their children and put everyone else in harms way. And now they're surprised or still in denial? Keep Little Precious at home.
"The vaccination controversy is a twist on an old problem for the Republican Party: how to approach matters that have largely been settled among scientists but are not widely accepted by conservatives."
What conservatives "accept" should be irrelevant when it comes to matters of public safety. These people believe all manner of idiocy, constantly reinforced by FOX "news" and the right-wing propaganda machine, and the great majority are willfully ignorant, despite available facts and evidence but their "beliefs" should not get to trump the greater good. I don't expect anything from a bottom feeder like Christie but Paul at least should know better than to risk a pandemic; if he doesn't he ought to have his medical license revoked.
What conservatives "accept" should be irrelevant when it comes to matters of public safety. These people believe all manner of idiocy, constantly reinforced by FOX "news" and the right-wing propaganda machine, and the great majority are willfully ignorant, despite available facts and evidence but their "beliefs" should not get to trump the greater good. I don't expect anything from a bottom feeder like Christie but Paul at least should know better than to risk a pandemic; if he doesn't he ought to have his medical license revoked.
1
I am 65 years-old. I had the measles, the mumps, chicken pocks and all of those that we called "the childhood diseases". I think that my immune system is better off for having gone through what Mother Nature made the norm.
Are we smarter than Ma Nature?? I think not…….Let nature run it's course…...
Are we smarter than Ma Nature?? I think not…….Let nature run it's course…...
You were lucky. And I hope you weren't near any pregnant women when you had the measles. Did you have a bout of polio too?
If all we had were individual rights, there'd be no collective right protecting them. Christie and Paul know that, but they don't have the courage to state it. Scratch them from my possible choices.
2
I find it odd that Gov. Christie demanded that Ebola victims be quarantined, yet is lukewarm about requiring children to be vaccinated. Does this mean that it's more important to please the conservative voters than to protect children from dangerous diseases?
As for the Republican Party itself, I have this question: Suppose you give into those who are against vaccinations and allow all parents to opt out. Then what? Do we allow diseases like polio to return and wreck havoc among children again? Should we allow all children to be exposed to measles, rubella, and smallpox, just to make this small group of voters happy? Is winning an election so important that you would allow the general health and welfare of the public to go to hell?
I find it laughable that you oppose abortion because of your concern for the unborn, but once they are born, you are quick to say, "You're all on your own, kids. Don't turn to us for any help!"
As for the Republican Party itself, I have this question: Suppose you give into those who are against vaccinations and allow all parents to opt out. Then what? Do we allow diseases like polio to return and wreck havoc among children again? Should we allow all children to be exposed to measles, rubella, and smallpox, just to make this small group of voters happy? Is winning an election so important that you would allow the general health and welfare of the public to go to hell?
I find it laughable that you oppose abortion because of your concern for the unborn, but once they are born, you are quick to say, "You're all on your own, kids. Don't turn to us for any help!"
1
Regarding the correction made by the NY Times: The original article was a huge error and completely misstated Obama's position. I'm glad you corrected it, but the harm was already done. And yesterday, a conservative talk show radio host played the audio of that same speech without clarifying that Obama was not 'this person.'
1
Not much difference between politician who are knee-jerk against vaccines in the name of "freedom", and the Taliban who refuse polio vaccinations in Afghan/Pakistan - who often resort to killing health workers administering them.
Enough! I cannot stand this. Vaccinate you children or keep them at home. I am 65! Heart of the Boomer Generation. I almost died at 3 from the measles! Stop the nonsense.
1
It is sickening to watch a physician like Rand Paul pander to the nuts in his party for favor and actually rationalize not vaccinating children against communicable diseases. He is in clear violation of the hippocratic oath.
If you really want to have the "choice" to ignore all reason and science and not vaccinate your children, the rest of us should have the right to demand you and your petri dish children be publicly and easily identified at all times.
I don't want your kids in our schools. I don't want them in our day care centers. I don't want them in our pediatric waiting rooms. And I surely don't want them in our hospitals where we have people with weakened immune systems due to diseases well out of their control.
Take your baseless views and your contagious children, create a commune with your own schools, hospitals, playgrounds and shopping centers. The rest of us can live in peace knowing you're no longer recklessly posing a danger to society.
If you really want to have the "choice" to ignore all reason and science and not vaccinate your children, the rest of us should have the right to demand you and your petri dish children be publicly and easily identified at all times.
I don't want your kids in our schools. I don't want them in our day care centers. I don't want them in our pediatric waiting rooms. And I surely don't want them in our hospitals where we have people with weakened immune systems due to diseases well out of their control.
Take your baseless views and your contagious children, create a commune with your own schools, hospitals, playgrounds and shopping centers. The rest of us can live in peace knowing you're no longer recklessly posing a danger to society.
1
So I get it. I get what Rand Paul is saying. We obviously aren't going to take away people's children, or lock people up if they don't vaccinate their kids. I would be against that. But we can definitely be stringent enough to say that your non-vaccinated kids are prohibited from public school (exceptions only for those allergic), prohibited from riding public transit and must inform private airlines and private bus companies that they are not vaccinated, preferably with a large dunce cap that they must wear on the plane or bus.
I am not surprised that the same folks who so feared Ebola now so opposed to vaccinations. The Grand old party should get a grip. Especially Duke doctor Rand Paul.
3
Perhaps this has already been noted in the nearly 300 comments, but this article contains an error that deserves immediate correction. Gov. Scott Walker was not asked about vaccinations on ABC "This Week" on Sunday. The quote attributed to him was made by a doctor earlier in the program. Please check on this and make the appropriate correction.
Are conservatives the only group that question the safety of vaccinations? By the tone and content of this article - yes, but I seriously doubt that is true. I know many liberals across the country that question vaccinations for a variety of (kooky) reasons. A broader expose' by the NYT would be much appreciated, instead this article is another vehicle to identify conservatives as neanderthals. Ugh.
I'm with Hillary. Ignorance is not preservative, evolutionarily speaking.
1
Those who recommend that antivaxers 'homeschool" their children have it completely backwards. Society as a whole is far more likely to be exposed to unvaccinated homeschooled children because those children go everywhere with their parents as a part of daily life, and because for most of them, the world is their classroom.
The misdirection in this piece is interesting. One must ask where the first measles infection came from given in the US it has been eliminated. Just how many of Obama's dreamers were vaccinated? Isn't it interesting that less than a year after Obama's policies lured children from South America to US borders we have an outbreak of the measles?
You keep repeating the same nonsense and have yet to share reliable, verifiable data suggesting evidence for your assertion. Please, stop making things up, and stop using every opportunity imaginable to bore the rest of us with the fact that you don't like O.
2
The growth of people with phobias about all sorts of issues with well established scientific data is of great concern. This nonsense is developing among supposedly college educated people who have bought into one sort of new age fantasy or another.
On the left many of these are the same well healed new agers who have gotten on the anti cell phone tower, anti power line anti nuclear power bandwagon.
On the right they are the survivalists who build bunkers and hold fundamentalist religious beliefs and have vaguely libertarian opposition to vaccination.
In other parts of the world they are convinced that vaccinations will sterilize then and that it is also against "God's will"
When the hippies, preppers and religious fundamentalist all hold the same view we are in serious trouble
Sigh... If we need anything more to control childhood diseases than universal vaccination it is universal scientific eduction. We need science education in grammar schools high schools, colleges and even universities. Nobody should be able to graduate any of these educational institutions without a basic understanding of the science behind vaccination. We need this equally from California to Europe to Pakistan to Africa. We need it on the left the right and in religious education. To do otherwise it to return the scourge of childhood disease from Measles to Polio to destroy our children.
No more science for poets! Everybody must pass a test in real science or they don't graduate!
On the left many of these are the same well healed new agers who have gotten on the anti cell phone tower, anti power line anti nuclear power bandwagon.
On the right they are the survivalists who build bunkers and hold fundamentalist religious beliefs and have vaguely libertarian opposition to vaccination.
In other parts of the world they are convinced that vaccinations will sterilize then and that it is also against "God's will"
When the hippies, preppers and religious fundamentalist all hold the same view we are in serious trouble
Sigh... If we need anything more to control childhood diseases than universal vaccination it is universal scientific eduction. We need science education in grammar schools high schools, colleges and even universities. Nobody should be able to graduate any of these educational institutions without a basic understanding of the science behind vaccination. We need this equally from California to Europe to Pakistan to Africa. We need it on the left the right and in religious education. To do otherwise it to return the scourge of childhood disease from Measles to Polio to destroy our children.
No more science for poets! Everybody must pass a test in real science or they don't graduate!
1
Not getting a child vaccinated is a form of child abuse and should be treated as such by the state. If Adrian Peterson can face possible jail time and the loss of his career by taking a switch to his child then parents who do not get their children vaccinated should face the same consequences.
4
How does home schooling help anybody if children are not vaccinated? Unvaccinated children, homeschooled or not, will grow up and join the general population in college and at work. There, they'll be a risk to everyone around them. Vaccination is the issue--homeschooling is absolutely useless in preventing epidemics.
1
There is idiocy on all sides here, but most of the anti-vaxxers, judging from the news stories published in the Times, seem to be Prius-driving, GMO-hating, save-the-earth, Whole-Foods shopping denizens of liberal, affluent suburbs. A smaller contingent seem to be religious conservatives. The politicians are all running for cover. Yesterday, President Obama was asked if he favored mandatory vaccination and he refused to answer the question, instead bloviating about how great vaccination is.
These debates will become all the more common as science continues erode the arena in which "belief" or "opinion" can reasonably be claimed. Get ready for a time when your "opinion" won't matter any more than your opinion of the weather will.
When I first read this article, I had the same reaction that many readers had - why did the NYT associate the GOP with the antivaxxers. given that the clusters of non-vaccinated children are in liberal areas, while conservative areas have some of the highest rates?
The reason is because this article is about politicians, not their constituents. You won't find a member of the Democratic caucus in congress or any Democratic leaders supporting the anti-vaxxers. But there are Republicans that do. And, in liberal areas where anti-vaxxing is common, local politicians are decrying it. So at a political level, it's delicate for the GOP.
It's also an opportunity for the GOP to attract some of those liberals to their libertarian message, and for the Democrats to attract conservatives to their communitarian message. Politics makes for strange bedfellows.
The reason is because this article is about politicians, not their constituents. You won't find a member of the Democratic caucus in congress or any Democratic leaders supporting the anti-vaxxers. But there are Republicans that do. And, in liberal areas where anti-vaxxing is common, local politicians are decrying it. So at a political level, it's delicate for the GOP.
It's also an opportunity for the GOP to attract some of those liberals to their libertarian message, and for the Democrats to attract conservatives to their communitarian message. Politics makes for strange bedfellows.
The map suggests this is a bigger problem with the organic kale and soy milk crowd than the grits, guns and gravy one. The two states with the strictest standards for school vaccinations are West Virginia and Mississippi. I'm not sure why Gov Christie and Sen Paul are walking this fine line.
1
If Rand Paul thinks that parents own their children, he may not be much of a Libertarian. The fake science of the Fearbola people has returned with the pretense that vaccines have not been established as safe and effective.
Since Republicans have slashed the funding for the NIH (the main research funding for the Ebola vaccines and other medical breakthroughs) and for public health in this country, as well as revamping textbooks in some states to reflect magical thinking about science, medicine, and history, none of this should be surprising. Next on their agenda - end healthcare for millions of their fellow Americans.
Since Republicans have slashed the funding for the NIH (the main research funding for the Ebola vaccines and other medical breakthroughs) and for public health in this country, as well as revamping textbooks in some states to reflect magical thinking about science, medicine, and history, none of this should be surprising. Next on their agenda - end healthcare for millions of their fellow Americans.
1
Nothing wrong with some 'healthy' skepticism; it is willful ignorance what we are against; it is dogma (religious or not) that makes it near impossible for some folks to follow the truth, no matter what it reveals. And one shouldn't be surprised if these same people are the one's denying science and evolution. Measles is a highly infectious condition, that can make you very sick, even kill you, if not vaccinated against. Facts are facts, and fantasies fantasies.
Oh, dear. Rational concern for children's welfare, pitted against political pandering to a political base. How delicately difficult; I can see the GOP's dilemma.
About these people who refuse to have their kids vaccinated, I wonder if many of them are stupid enough not to protect their kids against such debilitating diseases as polio? Politicians who suggest it should be a personal choice are grossly irresponsible.
1
I Don't think that the Republican candidates are trying to reconcile science with the skepticism of their base. Science seems to be as alien and threatening to the general run of Republicans as are the diseases which science is attempting to eradicate, contrary to the capacity to understand of the political base, which embraces foggy economics and inbred fundamentalism.
I used to be a Republican back when Republicans were American Conservatives. Now their ideas reek of a disdain, for not just the concept of ruling out by the process of scientific inquiry, but to the degree that they reject the processes of innovation, they seem to have embraced the certitude of the ignorant.
What confounds me is that people who are willing to call themselves Republicans, also want to be considered responsible Conservatives. The problem is that the party can't quest for the prerogative of the lunatic fringe and still be Conservative. It just can't be done.
I used to be a Republican back when Republicans were American Conservatives. Now their ideas reek of a disdain, for not just the concept of ruling out by the process of scientific inquiry, but to the degree that they reject the processes of innovation, they seem to have embraced the certitude of the ignorant.
What confounds me is that people who are willing to call themselves Republicans, also want to be considered responsible Conservatives. The problem is that the party can't quest for the prerogative of the lunatic fringe and still be Conservative. It just can't be done.
GOP to the world: science is hard!
Part of the problem is that those who are choosing not to vaccinate their kids have never experienced the diseases that these vaccines prevent. Measles, in particular is miserable for those who come down with it., and doesn't resolve in a day or two. The epidemics in the early sixties were devastating, with school absenteeism, and the complications that occurred. This should not be a choice. If my grandkids can't bring peanut butter to school in case someone has a peanut allergy, why do we allow unvaccinated children to threaten those who cannot for one reason or another be vaccinated?
1
This is particularly laughable considering it tends to be extremly liberal folks in wealthy enclaves like Santa Monica and Orange County who aren't vaccinating their kids. Science says what it says and cares not whether you are a liberal or a conservative. Vaccinate your children people.
Mandatory quarantine would be in order, per Republican sentiments, don't you think, for those who refuse to vaccinate?
1
But the non immunized are deep blue Democrats. Ironic!
The NY Times is writing "opinion" journalism on a serious topic that merits careful analysis.
Fact: The CDC Has been accused by one of its own doctors of withholding informations or years about the neurologic dangers of the preservative Thimerosal In vaccines. I.e., they are not immune from incompetence.
Fact: President Obama said the issue warrants more research.
Fact: Drug companies have a huge financial stake in the issue of vaccines. The number of recommended childhood vaccines has multiplied over the last decade.
Note, the NY Times doesn't mention the credible concerns that these facts point to...why? Drug ads?
It's time to face that there are two sides of the issue and we need to examine them. Myself, I examined the issues and decided to space out vaccinations (isnt it common sense that a young body shouldn't get 4-6 different disease antibodies at one time?)and to delay certain shots - eg, hep B that is given at birth just to reach the whole population (we want it, but not on the day of birth!)
I thank Dr. Wakefield and CDC whistleblowers for having the courage to bring up concerns about immunizations! Look at what has happened to them! (Shades of Edward Snowden)
My point? Let's look at both sides carefully- we need to be informed about a very complicated subject- not presented with one side.
Fact: The CDC Has been accused by one of its own doctors of withholding informations or years about the neurologic dangers of the preservative Thimerosal In vaccines. I.e., they are not immune from incompetence.
Fact: President Obama said the issue warrants more research.
Fact: Drug companies have a huge financial stake in the issue of vaccines. The number of recommended childhood vaccines has multiplied over the last decade.
Note, the NY Times doesn't mention the credible concerns that these facts point to...why? Drug ads?
It's time to face that there are two sides of the issue and we need to examine them. Myself, I examined the issues and decided to space out vaccinations (isnt it common sense that a young body shouldn't get 4-6 different disease antibodies at one time?)and to delay certain shots - eg, hep B that is given at birth just to reach the whole population (we want it, but not on the day of birth!)
I thank Dr. Wakefield and CDC whistleblowers for having the courage to bring up concerns about immunizations! Look at what has happened to them! (Shades of Edward Snowden)
My point? Let's look at both sides carefully- we need to be informed about a very complicated subject- not presented with one side.
1
"Doctor," Wakefield doesn't have a medical license anymore. seems he not only completely faked his "research," he got paid to do so.
1
Fact: Yes, and NASA has been accused of faking the moon landing.
Fact: To my knowledge, "because Obama said so" has never been accepted as adequate argument by peer-reviewed scientific publications. (Or, apparently, by anybody.)
Fact: Drug companies have a huge financial stake in the issue of vaccines. Also, politicians have a huge stake in anything PACs are vocal about, whether or not they are right. Physicians have a huge financial stake in giving their patients good advice. (Unfortunately, some quacks posing as physicians also have a huge financial stake in telling vulnerable populations what they want to hear.)
Fact: Common sense is wonderful, and in the absence of fact, sure, follow your gut -- but not when it contradicts actual data. If all human physiology followed simple rules that your great-grandmother taught you over chicken soup, we wouldn't need science.
Fact: To my knowledge, "because Obama said so" has never been accepted as adequate argument by peer-reviewed scientific publications. (Or, apparently, by anybody.)
Fact: Drug companies have a huge financial stake in the issue of vaccines. Also, politicians have a huge stake in anything PACs are vocal about, whether or not they are right. Physicians have a huge financial stake in giving their patients good advice. (Unfortunately, some quacks posing as physicians also have a huge financial stake in telling vulnerable populations what they want to hear.)
Fact: Common sense is wonderful, and in the absence of fact, sure, follow your gut -- but not when it contradicts actual data. If all human physiology followed simple rules that your great-grandmother taught you over chicken soup, we wouldn't need science.
1
This reminds me vividly of the days when public issues could only be presented in public schools if 'both sides were represented.' Somehow the program failed when it came time for public health workers to describe and caution about VD.
1
". . .the uncomfortable position of reconciling modern science with the skepticism of their core conservative voters."
To paraphrase the A-Team's great philosopher, Mr. T, "I pity the poor fools."
To paraphrase the A-Team's great philosopher, Mr. T, "I pity the poor fools."
This article and the comments on it feels disingenuous. Paul and Christie both have said they believe in vaccines and have vaccinated their children. They both also have said they believe that it should be a choice individuals make -- the way it always has been. This is the status quo, the system that has largely worked for the last century.
People are forgetting these diseases are serious, and need to be reminded and educated. Not strapped to a gurney for forced injections.
People are forgetting these diseases are serious, and need to be reminded and educated. Not strapped to a gurney for forced injections.
1
There is no evidence, on any level, that the vast majority of children should not receive vaccines. There is no link to autism. There is no increased risk of seizures or developing epilepsy (in fact there is increased risk of seizures if you do not follow the cdc recommended vaccination schedule).
The antivaccination movement was born from people that never experienced polio and measles. They are the parents that were vaccinated when they were children and never saw that horror. I am too young to have seen it, but my parents lived it (my uncle had polio). I am a physician, and unequivocally vaccines are the single greatest advancement for global health.
There is no room for danate on this issue. The pro and anti vaccination movements are not on equal footing. Putting them on a level field would be akin to giving equal validity to those that argue the earth is either flat or round. Childhood vaccines work. Every child should be vaccinated. Period.
The antivaccination movement was born from people that never experienced polio and measles. They are the parents that were vaccinated when they were children and never saw that horror. I am too young to have seen it, but my parents lived it (my uncle had polio). I am a physician, and unequivocally vaccines are the single greatest advancement for global health.
There is no room for danate on this issue. The pro and anti vaccination movements are not on equal footing. Putting them on a level field would be akin to giving equal validity to those that argue the earth is either flat or round. Childhood vaccines work. Every child should be vaccinated. Period.
5
I have a solution. Since these people are endangering innocent American citzens' lives on a massive scale, why not lock them up under the Patriot Act? The GOP loves using the Patriot Act to eliminate threats to our national security, so it's a win-win.
1
Perfect! Then send in some people infected with measles, chickenpox, mumps, rubella, pertussis, and diphteria. Key is that all these people are being kept in a small as possible area to make sure the infection rate is as high as possible.
Within a few short weeks, herd immunity would have been achieved and they can be released again to the public.
Doing this on a four yearly election cycle would ensure that the Patriot Act get faithfully renewed into perpetuity. Definitely a win-win for all!
I hope your comment was meant to be as sarcastic as my response...
Within a few short weeks, herd immunity would have been achieved and they can be released again to the public.
Doing this on a four yearly election cycle would ensure that the Patriot Act get faithfully renewed into perpetuity. Definitely a win-win for all!
I hope your comment was meant to be as sarcastic as my response...
The media driven hysteria over this issue should be
seen as yet another front in the campaign to render
the individual completely subservient to Big Pharma,
the medical establishment and the state (if they can
even be said to constitute separate entities).
If this stuff is all so self evident that only someone who
believes the earth is flat would question it then how does
one account for the considerable differences in recommended
numbers and scheduling among developed countries?
The CDC recommends something like 24 vaccinations for
a child in their first year and from 36-38 within 0-6 years.
In 1983 the number was 10, up from four when I was born.
In many countries (with far better rates of infant mortality than the US) the number of recommended vaccinations is far lower and the schedule
delayed compared to the US.
In 1975 Japan stopped doing *any* vaccinations under age
two. Its infant mortality rate dropped to the lowest in the world
and stayed there for the next twenty years or so. The Swiss do
not appear to be dropping like flies either, they recommend *far*
fewer vaccinations than the US, there is a absolute right to refuse
to vaccinate and their infant mortality rate, too, is considerably lower
than the US's - and declining).
Yeah, sure, let's hand over even more power over our lives
to the state - hey, look how responsibly they are exercising
that that they already have...
http://www.drmomma.org/2011/01/cdc-mandatory-vaccine-schedule-1983-vs.html
seen as yet another front in the campaign to render
the individual completely subservient to Big Pharma,
the medical establishment and the state (if they can
even be said to constitute separate entities).
If this stuff is all so self evident that only someone who
believes the earth is flat would question it then how does
one account for the considerable differences in recommended
numbers and scheduling among developed countries?
The CDC recommends something like 24 vaccinations for
a child in their first year and from 36-38 within 0-6 years.
In 1983 the number was 10, up from four when I was born.
In many countries (with far better rates of infant mortality than the US) the number of recommended vaccinations is far lower and the schedule
delayed compared to the US.
In 1975 Japan stopped doing *any* vaccinations under age
two. Its infant mortality rate dropped to the lowest in the world
and stayed there for the next twenty years or so. The Swiss do
not appear to be dropping like flies either, they recommend *far*
fewer vaccinations than the US, there is a absolute right to refuse
to vaccinate and their infant mortality rate, too, is considerably lower
than the US's - and declining).
Yeah, sure, let's hand over even more power over our lives
to the state - hey, look how responsibly they are exercising
that that they already have...
http://www.drmomma.org/2011/01/cdc-mandatory-vaccine-schedule-1983-vs.html
1
Japan also had well over 10, 000 rubella cases by June of 2013, which caused at least five children to be born with severe borth defects.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/health/rubella-epidemics-in-japan-and-...
it was an improvement over 2005, when some 200, 000 came down with a preventabke disease.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/health/rubella-epidemics-in-japan-and-...
it was an improvement over 2005, when some 200, 000 came down with a preventabke disease.
When even Rand Paul, a doctor, could utter such nonsense - you wonder if there is really any credible candidate among the Republicans?
1
The Republican drive to ignore, reject, and denigrate science is starting to cause casualties, it seems, and utter fools like Chris Christie and Rand Paul are right there in the drivers seat of the disaster bus.
One would think, after all the lives saved by vaccines during the 20th century, that someone savvy enough to build a successful political career, as all of the GOP presidential candidates have done, would understand the public health imperative. Apparently, the desire to equivocate, pander, and play to the ignorance of the right wingers overcomes all.
Sad. Just sad.
One would think, after all the lives saved by vaccines during the 20th century, that someone savvy enough to build a successful political career, as all of the GOP presidential candidates have done, would understand the public health imperative. Apparently, the desire to equivocate, pander, and play to the ignorance of the right wingers overcomes all.
Sad. Just sad.
I guess for many: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You; really only applies to the other guy and least of all them, so unfortunately it is they who find their child sick with something preventable. Maybe now those same people will begin to realize that the Golden Rule only works when everyone follows it, including themselves as well.
Again, this debate seems somewhat specious. As a society we have routinely enacted laws to protect individuals from injury at the hands of others as well as against self-injury. We have routinely regulated the individual's ability to make decisions that imperil other people: restrictions on smoking in public, operating a vehicle while impaired, discharging a firearm in public. Society has also supported laws protecting individuals ( and minors) from themselves despite potential impingement on individual choice: mandatory seat belt laws, requirements for motorcycle helmets, car seat laws, etc. We have also endorsed our public health departments ability to impose quarantines on individuals diagnosed with or exposed to contagious, serious illnesses. The concept of greater good is neither new nor obsolete.
In terms of parents rights to make decisions for minor children, society again has imposed some limitations on the the extent of parental choice when it impacts the child's health and safety. Many of the suburban families who choose not to vaccinate their children would under no circumstances allow their child to be unrestrained in a motor vehicle, ride a bicycle without a helmet or, in some cases, consume processed food. The scientific evidence for the protection afforded by immunization is significantly more compelling than for that associated with these other preventative measures combined. Even in democracy, there are limits to choice.
In terms of parents rights to make decisions for minor children, society again has imposed some limitations on the the extent of parental choice when it impacts the child's health and safety. Many of the suburban families who choose not to vaccinate their children would under no circumstances allow their child to be unrestrained in a motor vehicle, ride a bicycle without a helmet or, in some cases, consume processed food. The scientific evidence for the protection afforded by immunization is significantly more compelling than for that associated with these other preventative measures combined. Even in democracy, there are limits to choice.
5
Please, PLEASE, NY Times. Stop feeding idiocy by calling it 'a debate'. Just like evolution and climate change, *there is no debate." Vaccines are safe. Evolution is how things work. And climate change is happening. These are all scientifically proven things.
The language used in your ledes gives readers the notion that these are issues still lacking full examination. They're not.
You and the rest of the media contribute to this lunacy by implying that it is.
The language used in your ledes gives readers the notion that these are issues still lacking full examination. They're not.
You and the rest of the media contribute to this lunacy by implying that it is.
4
A solution might be, for those parents of purest persuasion, to establish a type of pre-leper colony on a small island similar to Molokai where they and their children can live happily without any government or societal institution influencing their choice of lifestyle. For those of limited means, they might consider a gift donation from a religious institution of their choice to underwrite their personal experiment. This action would allow them to avoid infecting other people while at the same time honoring their personal and libertarian beliefs.
7
The nice part is, the science oretty much tells us that we won't have to help maintain such a colony for all that long.
1
So measles cases are concentrated in the liberal lands of the organic only, no chemicals in body demographic, yet this is some how big trouble for the G.O.P? In fact according to the map, confirmed cases are almost non-existent in the conservative southern and midwestern states,
Nice spin.
Nice spin.
2
Jeez, when is someone going to open a Stupid Jail? You know, a place for people that are criminally stupid? God only knows how much money you'd make if stupid people were forced to spend some alone time when they did stupid things like not vaccinate their children.
We no longer live in the 1800's where our nearest neighbor may be miles away. Libertarians such as Rand Paul need to recognize that we live in a crowded and extremely complex society. How we express our 'freedoms' impacts our community, sometimes to its detriment. Vaccines are not perfect but the consequences of withholding vaccines from children are well established. In this day and age, if you want your children to interact with other children, it is simply unconscionable to not vaccinate.
Measles vaccine? I only wish they'd had it when I was young. For those who think this disease is just some spots and a little fever, here's a dissenting view - from one who almost died from it at the age of nine, and ended up later developing some problems that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. And Rand Paul, M.D., thinks vaccination of your kids should be a personal choice? I just lost what respect I had for him. Apparently he never saw what happens to those unlucky enough to end up with encephalitis from this bug. THAT would be an education.
Excuse me for not feeling sorry for these poor stressed Republicans. They've spent years attacking science (and scientists!) because objective science tends to conflict with their ideological programs. As Stephen Colbert said, "Reality has a liberal bias."
Now, they're reaping the results of their years of actively spreading disinformation and encouraging their core followers to distrust any government action.
The only thing that makes me sad about this is that the rest of us suffer from the effects of their misguided and shortsighted efforts.
Now, they're reaping the results of their years of actively spreading disinformation and encouraging their core followers to distrust any government action.
The only thing that makes me sad about this is that the rest of us suffer from the effects of their misguided and shortsighted efforts.
"entitled people who don't want to put any poison in their kids... which is ignorance..."
This is just one-upmanship in the game of "Who is the BETTER mom?" so popular among liberal and wealthy women with extra time on their hands. They want the rest of us to know that they are BETTER MOMS than you and I. That they care SO much for their kids that they will fight tooth and nail to keep "poison" from being injected into their kid's body.
Truly laughable if it weren't so damaging to innocent children.
This is just one-upmanship in the game of "Who is the BETTER mom?" so popular among liberal and wealthy women with extra time on their hands. They want the rest of us to know that they are BETTER MOMS than you and I. That they care SO much for their kids that they will fight tooth and nail to keep "poison" from being injected into their kid's body.
Truly laughable if it weren't so damaging to innocent children.
So the decision to have your children vaccinated is "one of individual liberty?" It seems Mr Paul confuses liberty with ideology.
I fail to see the so-called delicacy of this issue for conservatives.
The vague "choice" notion that conservative politicians prop up falls perfectly in line with the single most important tenet of their ideology: government is bad.
No matter what the issue is, or even how proven a fact it is - from vaccines to climate change to the pyramid scheme that is trickle down economics - conservatives get free rein to make up whatever they want when it comes to otherwise long-agreed-upon issues, because, after all, government is bad.
It's a "dog ate my homework" excuse that never gets old. Election after election.
The vague "choice" notion that conservative politicians prop up falls perfectly in line with the single most important tenet of their ideology: government is bad.
No matter what the issue is, or even how proven a fact it is - from vaccines to climate change to the pyramid scheme that is trickle down economics - conservatives get free rein to make up whatever they want when it comes to otherwise long-agreed-upon issues, because, after all, government is bad.
It's a "dog ate my homework" excuse that never gets old. Election after election.
I I think these people need a lesson in history. One hundred years ago, and all through history children did not make it to adulthood because they died from childhood diseases like Measles. I'm a baby boomer and we all had our shots with no problems. The children of parents who won't allow them to get vaccinated should not be allowed in school. Are these parents waiting for a child to die. I'd like to see the law suit on that one.
1
What a sad sate of affairs that one of our two major political parties has gone off the rails in so many ways, including accepted science in evolution, climate change, and now vaccinations. The difference with this one is if someone doesn't believe in evolution, it doesn't hurt anyone else (well, strike that, unless they are members of a state school board with power over text books) but if they don't believe in the science of vaccinations, it has the potential to hurt many others.
2
As a child of the 1960's I experienced whooping cough, german measles, mumps and whooping cough. I did not have the measles. Recently I found my old report cards from first and second grades and was surprised to see how much time I missed due to these illnesses. I remember the whooping cough and how debilitating it was just lying in bed coughing and running a fever for over a week. I don't think these parents know people who lived through these illnesses and think it's just a few missed days of school and your child won't suffer. I remember the oral polio vaccine that we all went to the elementary school and lined up for on a Sunday. It was exciitng because it was on a sugar cube and not an injection. Science has come such a long way with vaccinations eradicating these childhood illnesses that it is a shame they are coming back. These parents are ignorant and self absorbed.
1
The far left and far right have much in common-- both are skeptical of government, very worried about having their freedoms taken away, and both are anti-science. Both respond very well to fear and it's pathetic that politicians pander to these groups just for votes.
Delicate? Because they are dealing with a base that is insane? And if everyone chose not to have their children vaccinated? We would return to the Dark Ages, from which these candidates seem to come.
1
It seems like the GOP is on the wrong side of every issues, and everything they champion has to be reconciled with reality. If you are proven wrong on so many fronts, why should any voter trust them?
1
Turns out when I was a kid in the 1960's I did not ever get Chicken Pox. In the early 1990's there was an large outbreak of it in San Francisco one year. I rode the bus to and from work.
In my 30's I got Chicken Pox. I got it bad. It took months out of my life and I was one step short of serious life changing or life ending complications.
Today we have a vaccine for that.
People who decide to not vaccinate for any reason other than medical necessity are guilty of assault on the community. You may not see the assault you are committing but you are never the less doing it.
In northern California I can no longer burn a fire on many nights because someone out there with asthma may be injured. I can be fined and jailed if I continued to do so.
That is the difference in these two issues. Nothing.
Why should the person who burns a fireplace be placed in jeopardy for the "assault" on their neighbor's health and yet a person who places their neighbors health at risk by not vaccinating their child get off the hook?
In my 30's I got Chicken Pox. I got it bad. It took months out of my life and I was one step short of serious life changing or life ending complications.
Today we have a vaccine for that.
People who decide to not vaccinate for any reason other than medical necessity are guilty of assault on the community. You may not see the assault you are committing but you are never the less doing it.
In northern California I can no longer burn a fire on many nights because someone out there with asthma may be injured. I can be fined and jailed if I continued to do so.
That is the difference in these two issues. Nothing.
Why should the person who burns a fireplace be placed in jeopardy for the "assault" on their neighbor's health and yet a person who places their neighbors health at risk by not vaccinating their child get off the hook?
2
Personal decision? Not when your actions will cause serious damage to others. Letting these kids go in public is a potential epidemic. Polio is now making a comeback in areas where the Islamic fundamentalists don't accept vaccination. Interesting how all the crazies think the same no matter where they live.
Maybe "Dr. Paul" (remember the con guy on TV Dr.Oz is also a "doctor") approves folks driving drunk if they think they have the personal right to choose.
Maybe "Dr. Paul" (remember the con guy on TV Dr.Oz is also a "doctor") approves folks driving drunk if they think they have the personal right to choose.
4
Parents should have choice, but then be responsible. If you don't vaccinate, you keep your child out of the major public venues so they cannot infect others. Home school, go to your church where others don't vaccinate, You are free to endanger your own kids, just don't endanger my kids!
1
No parent should be free to endanger their own kids.
When we accept that, we're finished as a society.
When we accept that, we're finished as a society.
1
This isn't a conservative/liberal thing. What's different is many of the pockets where the most unvaccinated children live are in liberal bastions such as Santa Monica and Marin County California. I'm sure these same parents would go crazy if someone said he didn't believe in man-made climate change, something that 97% of the scientific community agrees is true. The same is true with vaccines, in which the vast majority or the scientific and medical community say they are safe and necessary, yet in this case the liberal anti vaxxers choose to deny science and put themselves firmly in the camp of people who besides denying global warming also think that dinosaurs roamed the earth 6.000 years ago, along with the original descendents of Adam and Eve.
When you hear or read what anti vaxxers say, it's also something like I just "believe" they're not safe. Stephen Colbert coined the word truthiness to describe the thoughts of people like that. According to Wikepedia, truthiness" is a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts." Where is Colbert now when we need him. I can only imagine how he'd describe these idiots. It would have been so funny if it weren't so dangerous.
When you hear or read what anti vaxxers say, it's also something like I just "believe" they're not safe. Stephen Colbert coined the word truthiness to describe the thoughts of people like that. According to Wikepedia, truthiness" is a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts." Where is Colbert now when we need him. I can only imagine how he'd describe these idiots. It would have been so funny if it weren't so dangerous.
6
"The politics of medicine, morality and free will have collided in an emotional debate over vaccines and the government’s place in requiring them, posing a challenge for Republicans who find themselves in the familiar but uncomfortable position of reconciling modern science with the skepticism of their core conservative voters." Measles proves a delicate issue to the G.O.P?
This is a rather bizarre line of questioning. People in the G.O.P think that the epidemics are coming across the border with the illegal children who don't arrive vaccinated, and where at one shelter in NM they had to shut down for 8 weeks last summer in quarantine. Conservative parents are worried and vaccinate their kids against deadly diseases.
I think where you get questions is when the public schools tell parents to do the HPV vacine which is really fighting a disease that does not occur in all classes of the spectrum, but in urban areas and minority populations. HPV results in a cancer that kills primarily black and hispanic women. It is really a vaccine that should be handled by a persons doctor, rather than the school system.
This is a rather bizarre line of questioning. People in the G.O.P think that the epidemics are coming across the border with the illegal children who don't arrive vaccinated, and where at one shelter in NM they had to shut down for 8 weeks last summer in quarantine. Conservative parents are worried and vaccinate their kids against deadly diseases.
I think where you get questions is when the public schools tell parents to do the HPV vacine which is really fighting a disease that does not occur in all classes of the spectrum, but in urban areas and minority populations. HPV results in a cancer that kills primarily black and hispanic women. It is really a vaccine that should be handled by a persons doctor, rather than the school system.
Correction to the headline: "Reality proves Delicate Issue to GOP Field".
2
Your neighbors are not having their children vaccinated.
So Republicans are ok with personal choice on an issue like vaccinations that can harm or even kill thousands but are against personal choice on reproductive rights for a woman?
2
I find it breathtaking that political ideology has become so warped that we're even discussing issues like this.
Several decades ago, most people would question one's sanity if they rejected something that would protect their children's lives and public health. One of the great triumphs of modern times was the ability to vaccinate and forego epidemics that plagued mankind throughout history. But now we're debating the proven worth of something that would have been viewed as a miracle to our ancestors?
What is it about this urge to go backwards and embrace myth, superstition, and being ignorant?
Again, why is this debate given any credibility among us that are reasonable?
Several decades ago, most people would question one's sanity if they rejected something that would protect their children's lives and public health. One of the great triumphs of modern times was the ability to vaccinate and forego epidemics that plagued mankind throughout history. But now we're debating the proven worth of something that would have been viewed as a miracle to our ancestors?
What is it about this urge to go backwards and embrace myth, superstition, and being ignorant?
Again, why is this debate given any credibility among us that are reasonable?
Parents do not "own" their children. That sort of thinking is often the justification for all kinds of abuse, including depriving offspring of protection from possibly deadly and certainly painful diseases.
1
So, Rand Paul thinks vaccinations cause "mental disorders." I wonder what vaccine caused his irrationality?
While many physicians groups are doing the politically correct thing by not turning away unvaccinated children, on the basis that they do not want to ostracize and alienate the vaccine denialists, they are actually seriously endangering all the young children and children with cancer and other immunocomromising conditions in their practice. If my children were young or vulnerable, I would ask if the practice took vaccine denialists, and I would avoid that practice. I believe that separate clinics should be set up for those who will not vaccinate their children. Unfortunately that will likely increase the risk for their children, but frankly, it is better that their children incur the consequences of their actions rather than your children.
The maps show the measles outbreak is concentrated in Southern California, the Pacific Northwest and the Northeastern U.S. But please, keep claiming anti-science anti-government conservatives are the problem.
2
Given his usual blunt outspokenness, I would expect Christie's response to have been more along the lines of "Of course kids should be vaccinated against measles, but if some idiots don't want to have their kids vaccinated? Hey, it's a free country."
But I guess conservative idiots deserve pussyfooting instead of his renowned candor.
But I guess conservative idiots deserve pussyfooting instead of his renowned candor.
Mr. Paul thinks “The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.” No, Mr. Paul, children are not property.
Children have their own individual rights, and they deserve to be cared for so that they can grow up to assert those rights for themselves. Parents do not have the "right" to endanger their children in order to make some kind of religious or ideological point.
Children have their own individual rights, and they deserve to be cared for so that they can grow up to assert those rights for themselves. Parents do not have the "right" to endanger their children in order to make some kind of religious or ideological point.
Rand Paul: "“The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.”
Oh, boy. No, Rand, we *don't* "own" our kids. We are responsible for them, keeping them safe from harm (and that includes the measles), and ensuring that they become happy, productive members of society to the extent of their capacity. But we certainly do NOT own them.
That said, parents sometimes make really stupid decisions. And they seem to have a propensity for making those decisions in the absence of a sound understanding of risk vs. benefit. Vaccination falls into this category. Yes, your kid *might* get a low-grade fever, or perhaps some injection site tenderness- all treatable, all minor, and a very small down payment on a lifetime of protection from diseases that could seriously harm their kid or others.
So far, we have at least three MDs who have very publicly weighed in on the wrong side of vaccinations: one who was completely discredited as a scientific fraud, another who is a cardiologist who seems to have no empathy for others or a basic understanding of public health (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jack-wolfson-vaccines-doctor-measles), and now, an ophthalmologist who is playing this hand for all it's worth- not as a physician but as a politician.
The higher calling here is being ignored. It's all well and good to be skeptical- that's what good science depends on (and how Wakefield was caught). But the anti-vaccine froth generated by these people is irresponsible.
Oh, boy. No, Rand, we *don't* "own" our kids. We are responsible for them, keeping them safe from harm (and that includes the measles), and ensuring that they become happy, productive members of society to the extent of their capacity. But we certainly do NOT own them.
That said, parents sometimes make really stupid decisions. And they seem to have a propensity for making those decisions in the absence of a sound understanding of risk vs. benefit. Vaccination falls into this category. Yes, your kid *might* get a low-grade fever, or perhaps some injection site tenderness- all treatable, all minor, and a very small down payment on a lifetime of protection from diseases that could seriously harm their kid or others.
So far, we have at least three MDs who have very publicly weighed in on the wrong side of vaccinations: one who was completely discredited as a scientific fraud, another who is a cardiologist who seems to have no empathy for others or a basic understanding of public health (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jack-wolfson-vaccines-doctor-measles), and now, an ophthalmologist who is playing this hand for all it's worth- not as a physician but as a politician.
The higher calling here is being ignored. It's all well and good to be skeptical- that's what good science depends on (and how Wakefield was caught). But the anti-vaccine froth generated by these people is irresponsible.
Truth in Advertising ... I'm a middle aged, upper middle class white guy who tends to vote R ... but I'd vote for a Hillary Clinton/Elizabeth Warren ticket before voting for _any_ Republican who is anti-vaccination.
To those who talk about "freedom to choose" and all that ... your freedom ends when it affects others ... if you want "freedom to choose", move where the effects of your choice are limited to you.
To those who say it's not safe, or worry that there might be an adverse reaction ... since you don't know that it _will_ cause a problem for _your_ child, you're just playing the probabilities. Sometimes there is no perfect choice.
To those who want to "be natural" ... well, the viruses & proteins in the vaccines are quite natural; they evolved in nature. All we did was kill them.
To those who talk about "freedom to choose" and all that ... your freedom ends when it affects others ... if you want "freedom to choose", move where the effects of your choice are limited to you.
To those who say it's not safe, or worry that there might be an adverse reaction ... since you don't know that it _will_ cause a problem for _your_ child, you're just playing the probabilities. Sometimes there is no perfect choice.
To those who want to "be natural" ... well, the viruses & proteins in the vaccines are quite natural; they evolved in nature. All we did was kill them.
Dr. Paul--if parents "own" their children, should they be able to decide not to put them in child seats or seat belts?
I'm not really sure I want to hear your answer, "Doctor" Paul.
I'm not really sure I want to hear your answer, "Doctor" Paul.
2
Totally clueless!
Conservatives accept the science that vaccines work. Its the liberals who don't want to vaccinate due to unscientific fears about a vaccine/autism link.
The question conservatives have is whether or not the federal government can/should force kids to get vaccinated. Because conservatives actually know what "freedom to choose" actually means.
Conservatives accept the science that vaccines work. Its the liberals who don't want to vaccinate due to unscientific fears about a vaccine/autism link.
The question conservatives have is whether or not the federal government can/should force kids to get vaccinated. Because conservatives actually know what "freedom to choose" actually means.
2
While the enforcers of political correctness are doing their best to drive me away from the Democratic Party, I find myself totally unable to consider voting for a party that can't bring itself to endorse basic scientific truths. Yes, there are plenty of wackos on the far left, but at least their views are not considered to be part of the mainstream of the Dems. A lot of folks in the GOP, on the other hand, seem to want to return to the 18th Century as soon as possible. Thanks, but no thanks.
This lies at the feet of Ronald Reagan, with his disastrous sound-bite that became the rallying cry of the fearful and small-minded: "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
This principle, writ large and pressed into rejecting everything that the government does or funds (military spending aside), leads to the anti-government, anti-science, selfish, petty, and malicious view of society that pervades especially the Republican Party and their media cheerleaders. The Republicans have gone too far with this mantra, and now are stuck having to twist their words and violate the most inviolable duty of a Constitutional official -- to protect national safety, namely the prevention of catastrophic diseases. For elected officials in Congress, especially those who are physicians, to undermine one of the greatest public health achievements in human history, in order to pander to the ignorant, is traitorous.
The Michele Bachmann-ization of an entire major political party is the single greatest danger to our country today -- far more dangerous than piddling terrorists self-destructing thousands of miles away. Please, let us develop the vaccine to cure us of this destructive mentality.
This principle, writ large and pressed into rejecting everything that the government does or funds (military spending aside), leads to the anti-government, anti-science, selfish, petty, and malicious view of society that pervades especially the Republican Party and their media cheerleaders. The Republicans have gone too far with this mantra, and now are stuck having to twist their words and violate the most inviolable duty of a Constitutional official -- to protect national safety, namely the prevention of catastrophic diseases. For elected officials in Congress, especially those who are physicians, to undermine one of the greatest public health achievements in human history, in order to pander to the ignorant, is traitorous.
The Michele Bachmann-ization of an entire major political party is the single greatest danger to our country today -- far more dangerous than piddling terrorists self-destructing thousands of miles away. Please, let us develop the vaccine to cure us of this destructive mentality.
19
It's ironic that this is a delicate issue for Republicans, since the clusters of outbreaks seem to correlate well with the density of liberal Democrats. Are Democrats unified in their position?
7
It's illogical that the State can't compel vaccinations, but it then could compel treatment of the disease resulting from vaccinations.... we already don't allow parents to refuse lifesaving treatment (and in the case of pregnant women, there have been cases where mentally competent adults have been compelled to receive surgery (C-sections) against their will). So if we recognize the State has a right to compel treatment of children - why don't we compel the thing that would obviate the need to force a treatment in the first place?
1
Why can't Republicans teach their constituents to do the right thing (in this case immunizing their children and thereby protecting their children as well as others) instead of pandering to their ignorance?
6
Have you read where the outbreak is occurring? Deep blue zip codes along the coast lines. Yes the elite Democrats are driving the anti-immunization trend.
1
Since when is it the job of the politician to tell their constituents what they should think? Last I checked, the political representative's job as to represent the thoughts/beliefs of their constituents.
You have it backwards, my friend.
You have it backwards, my friend.
It's more complicated than that. The area around Orange County (center of this outbreak mostly by the luck of hosting the Disney parks, but also the center of a previous outbreak) is dark red. There are pockets of low vaccination among Ultra-Orthodox Jews and among other conservative religious groups. The current outbreak hasn't spread to them, but that's again luck. You aren't wrong that "crunchy" liberal areas are also problematic, but that's not the whole story.
I'd disagree with question of individual choice controlling this issue. We live in a Community, not a lawless state of rugged individualists on the frontier, but a complex, interdependent and often compressed community. If we allow people the "freedom" to chose to spread disease to the harm of not just themselves but to those around them, why do we spend so much time prosecuting people who commit crimes against another? What would we do today with a "Typhoid Mary"? Would we allow her the freedom to continue infecting society for the sake of her individual freedom?
It's time we grow up as a species if we want our society to lead to its advancement rather than its demise. Some things we do not just for our own good, but for the good of living in the community.
It's time we grow up as a species if we want our society to lead to its advancement rather than its demise. Some things we do not just for our own good, but for the good of living in the community.
24
It is much too easy to position conservative objectors to vaccinations as simple-minded when it comes to science. For many, it is not an issue of science but of trust in government.
Have there been times when governments have lied to the people they govern? (Yes.) They may accept that vaccines work generally, but also that it is possible that a big pharma-government handshake has obfuscated test results they don't like, this particular time, this particular vaccine.
Instead of addressing a lack of scientific understanding, it is often this distrust that should be addressed. Reducing corruption in this area is possible through increased transparency (never a bad idea generally), and support of firewalls between the interests of government, pharmaceuticals, and university research labs.
Have there been times when governments have lied to the people they govern? (Yes.) They may accept that vaccines work generally, but also that it is possible that a big pharma-government handshake has obfuscated test results they don't like, this particular time, this particular vaccine.
Instead of addressing a lack of scientific understanding, it is often this distrust that should be addressed. Reducing corruption in this area is possible through increased transparency (never a bad idea generally), and support of firewalls between the interests of government, pharmaceuticals, and university research labs.
2
As a country we routinely support positions and policies that are not supported by evidence. In addition to anti-vaxxers and climate-change-deniers, there is a huge anti-GMO crowd and people who believe we can enter foreign wars and make ourselves safer.
We're not country that particularly values evidence or rational thinking. Politicians and their statements just reflect the electorate.
We're not country that particularly values evidence or rational thinking. Politicians and their statements just reflect the electorate.
2
Measles is a highly contagious disease which can lead to pneumonia, encephalitis, or ear infections which may cause permanent hearing loss. It is fatal in roughly one to two out of each thousand cases.
Note well the graphic which accompanies this article.
No cases of measles in states and cities with strong vaccination policies, including some of the largest cities in the U.S.: New York City, Boston, Philadelphia, Washington D.C. Small numbers of cases in the New York State city of Poughkeepsie (Dutchess County) and the Pennsylvania city of Harrisburg (Cumberland County). Small numbers of cases in other large cities, including Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, Minneapolis and Omaha.
Comparatively large numbers of measles in states, cities and counties with weak vaccination policies: California, particularly Los Angeles, Riverside, San Bernardino, San Diego, Ventura, and Orange County.
Parents have a responsibility to make the best possible decision for their children. Some parents are concerned about the risk that vaccinations might have adverse side effects.
In which set of states and cities would you rather raise your children, however -- the ones with strong vaccination policies and low rates of measles, or the ones with weak vaccination policies and many cases of measles? If you are a parent living in one of the states or cities with weak vaccination policies, how do you feel about decisions by other parents which could place your own children at risk?
Note well the graphic which accompanies this article.
No cases of measles in states and cities with strong vaccination policies, including some of the largest cities in the U.S.: New York City, Boston, Philadelphia, Washington D.C. Small numbers of cases in the New York State city of Poughkeepsie (Dutchess County) and the Pennsylvania city of Harrisburg (Cumberland County). Small numbers of cases in other large cities, including Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, Minneapolis and Omaha.
Comparatively large numbers of measles in states, cities and counties with weak vaccination policies: California, particularly Los Angeles, Riverside, San Bernardino, San Diego, Ventura, and Orange County.
Parents have a responsibility to make the best possible decision for their children. Some parents are concerned about the risk that vaccinations might have adverse side effects.
In which set of states and cities would you rather raise your children, however -- the ones with strong vaccination policies and low rates of measles, or the ones with weak vaccination policies and many cases of measles? If you are a parent living in one of the states or cities with weak vaccination policies, how do you feel about decisions by other parents which could place your own children at risk?
2
The areas with poor vaccination rates are deep blue.
This dialog is representative of the state of politics today (perhaps always). The presidential nominee hopefuls only have a problem because they are not telling us what they think but rather what will hurt them the least or what will ingratiate them with their "base." If you don't believe the science then fine. Parents are not obligated to do anything. If you do believe the science, then you have a problem. First, because you believe in science and a whole lot of your base chooses to selectively believe what is convenient (not unlike a cafeteria Catholic). And, second, because you need to represent ALL of the people and those who choose not to vaccinate are a public health risk. Oh well. Good luck to ya!
1
"Parents own the children." Yikes, that's extreme. What kind of parent believes he owns a child? Ron Paul's father? In the Paul family vision of what government shouldn't meddle in, do parents also have the freedom to sell the child, given a pure free-enterprise market?
Any sane society has rules about what parents can and can't do regarding their children. You don't "own" a child in this particular country.
Any sane society has rules about what parents can and can't do regarding their children. You don't "own" a child in this particular country.
4
Always amazing to me that those same politicians who scream that government should stay out of people's lives and parents have the right to not vaccinate their children (putting the rest of us at risk), are the same politicians that would deny a woman the right to choose an abortion.
2
Unfortunately, Mr. Peter's and Mr. Perez-Pena gave short shrift to the broader, "big-tent" nature of the anti-vaccine movement. The debate is not nearly as partisan as this article implies. A great deal of the "anti-vaxers" are liberals who have identified with the organic and "back-to-nature" trends of the last two decades. These individuals are more likely to drive a Prius with "coexist" and "Nader 2004" bumper stickers than they are to vote for Chris Christie.
The anti-vaccine movement is one area where the political spectrum is more of a circle then a line. As with GMOs, the left and right poles converge and people of all political stripes eschew settled science.
The anti-vaccine movement is one area where the political spectrum is more of a circle then a line. As with GMOs, the left and right poles converge and people of all political stripes eschew settled science.
1
Parents don't get to choose whether their children should be quarantined in a public health emergency. Neither should they be able to choose on measures like vaccination that prevent public health emergencies.
2
The bottom line is president Obama said to vaccinate. So of course they imply to not vaccinate.
2
This is the age old question people sometimes think is new - what does the state control; what decisions are kept for ourselves? I say I lean libertarian, but some libertarians make me cringe. On the other hand, many governmental decisions make me cringe too. I believe in democratic government, but not one that takes personal choices away from people without a legitimate governmental concern. But, what's a personal choice and what is a legitimate matter of public concern? Aye, there's the rub. For me, I'm very comfortable with the outlawing of lead in household paints but not comfortable with NYC limiting the size of some soft drinks; comfortable with government licensing doctors in conjunction with the industry, but not with the government takeover of healthcare. We all answer these question differently. Personally, I think you are nuts or ignorant if you don't get your children immunized, though, sure, I could be wrong. If most people agree, and I think they do in America, does that mean it is legitimate for the government to tell parents they have no choice? Well, that's why we have a democracy, law and rights. That's why we debate. Maybe the answer is that parents can choose, but their children can be banned from school in an outbreak or they are held accountable to permanent damage to their children from the illness in the form of fines and, in the case of death, criminal prosecution. I'm sure they wouldn't like that - but don't their children have rights too?
1
David, I loathe libertarianism as a political philosophy, but I would be the first to tell you I know several libertarians who are fine, generous people.
You're wise to see that your politics are not absolute; that there are indeed exceptions.
You're dead wrong, however, in your assertion that there's been a "government takeover" of health care. It is simply untrue -- factually and otherwise.
Full disclosure: I am NOT a supporter of the PPACA.
You're wise to see that your politics are not absolute; that there are indeed exceptions.
You're dead wrong, however, in your assertion that there's been a "government takeover" of health care. It is simply untrue -- factually and otherwise.
Full disclosure: I am NOT a supporter of the PPACA.
Thanks for your comment, Finny.
I don't know why you despise libertarians because their basic premise is that we should be as free as possible, including our right to write on this medium what we like about the gov't or not. Some take it to the point of almost anarchy though and I'm sure we agree about them - but it's a pretty big spectrum. For me liberty to choose is a default and the gov't should have to have a really good reason to take away personal choice.
As to healthcare - I personally was not permitted to get healthcare by the government when I could afford it until they said so, and then I had ZERO choice as to what was covered or not (a little choice for things like premiums and deductibles), which was not true before the ACA. If that is not a gov't takeover, I do not know what is. Glad you do not support ACA though. Most people don't. And for the record, there are a few aspects of the ACA I like, just not the way it was done and its totality.
I don't know why you despise libertarians because their basic premise is that we should be as free as possible, including our right to write on this medium what we like about the gov't or not. Some take it to the point of almost anarchy though and I'm sure we agree about them - but it's a pretty big spectrum. For me liberty to choose is a default and the gov't should have to have a really good reason to take away personal choice.
As to healthcare - I personally was not permitted to get healthcare by the government when I could afford it until they said so, and then I had ZERO choice as to what was covered or not (a little choice for things like premiums and deductibles), which was not true before the ACA. If that is not a gov't takeover, I do not know what is. Glad you do not support ACA though. Most people don't. And for the record, there are a few aspects of the ACA I like, just not the way it was done and its totality.
I do not own my daughter. I am the caretaker of her future, which she owns. Receiving recommended vaccinations now helps ensure her future potential.
4
"Conservative" used to mean that you were concerned about threats to society. It used to mean "conservative." Now the GOP is populist bomb-throwers who are willing to risk public health for some cheap political points.
If candidates do not care about the lives of the citizens, then voters should reject them. We need to have a grass-roots against the anti-vaccine panderers.
If candidates do not care about the lives of the citizens, then voters should reject them. We need to have a grass-roots against the anti-vaccine panderers.
2
"R" from New York states that unvaccinated children should not be allowed to attend school and I must agree, although it pains me to say it. As a retired teacher with thirty-plus years of classroom experience and many hours of volunteer activities in service to public education, I believe deeply in the right of every child to attend school. However, parents who oppose vaccination should not have the right to increase the risk to children who for medical reasons cannot be vaccinated, or who are in that unfortunate 5% for whom the vaccination is ineffective, especially in a group situation (such as school) in which the spread of highly contagious disease is more likely.
In our American democracy there is much emphasis on individual rights, and I agree that these liberties are precious. But the fact that a parent has an abstract "right" to reject vaccination for his/her child does not mean that it is wise or responsible to do so. Perhaps this is a situation in which the "rights" of the parent need to take a back seat to the public good. Parents who choose to distrust and ignore the science of vaccinations need to understand that their individual, personal choice may have serious and long-lasting public consequences, and that one of them may be the loss of access to public schools - a sad state of affairs, but necessary for public health reasons.
In our American democracy there is much emphasis on individual rights, and I agree that these liberties are precious. But the fact that a parent has an abstract "right" to reject vaccination for his/her child does not mean that it is wise or responsible to do so. Perhaps this is a situation in which the "rights" of the parent need to take a back seat to the public good. Parents who choose to distrust and ignore the science of vaccinations need to understand that their individual, personal choice may have serious and long-lasting public consequences, and that one of them may be the loss of access to public schools - a sad state of affairs, but necessary for public health reasons.
4
These people are nuts. We flouridate water, research medications to make sure they are safe, wear seatbelts..... The list goes on and on. If people refuse vaccinations let then be quarenteened for life.
1
To Tom Paine: No one mentions.. "that no one dies from this disease" because people DO die from this disease. Please get your facts straight before you expose others to such drivel--or to the measles.
2
I believe we are the only country such incredible issues are discussed.
1
How to have fun with Rand Paul; First, remind him that he believes parents have 100% ownership of their children, and have the power to make potentially fatal choices for them. Then ask him his position on abortion.
7
"The vaccination controversy is a twist on an old problem for the Republican Party: how to approach matters that have largely been settled among scientists but are not widely accepted by conservatives." Perhaps they could approach it by educating their supporters instead of pandering to their ignorance. Pandering just perpetuates this problem for the GOP and prevents the country at large from moving on to more important matters.
4
That there is even a debate about vaccinations in 2015 is shocking. We really are devolving to an "everyone for himself" society. Government, in the form of Republicans and their failed leadership over the past 40 years, has broken the social compact. Business, in the form of offshoring jobs and profits, has destroyed whatever remained of that social compact. And now individuals have chosen to follow the Ayn Randian dictate of selfishness. At least let's not be surprised when this doesn't end well.
8
It's too bad there isn't a vaccine that prevents conservatism, or prevents it's spread to one's children. I suppose there's medical cannabis, that one use alone, should be enough for nationwide legalization.
Obama is a puppet of the pharmaceutical industries
I guess people were smarter back when they lined their children up for polio and smallpox vaccinations! See what happened because of that.
Ignorance, paranoia and inability to evaluate basic science are not "skepticism". Skeptical people approach problems with doubt that is subject to education. Anti-vaxxers are not skeptics; they are proud ignoramuses, elevating superstition over science and personal narcissism over societal safety.
1
This isn't just about a vaccine - when we relinquish personal freedoms to a larger governmental or corporate authority that is self-monitored and well insulated from investigation and accountability, we had better be prepared for related and other freedoms to follow suit. We need government, we need a code of behavior, all this to better the common good for... the individuals. But we do not create a better world by removing fundamental freedoms, and I believe the rights of parents should be highly protected. Let's talk to Merck and ask, while this may not be your most profitable enterprise, can you please provide, for the public well-being, the individual measles vaccination for those parents whose children have had dangerous reactions to the combined vaccine? Let's ask Merck to account for the vaccine string that was generated in part by the fetal cells of aborted babies - let's come as a community to expect great transparency from the powerful who profit immensely from us, and put less pressure on the vulnerable, such as a mom and dad who have seen their children become very sick after a vaccine and want very much to do the best thing for their children.
Vaccination is NOT a political issue...It's an issue of Life or Death. The sooner we get this out of the political arena the better off we'll be.
As a physician I've seen children suffer and die of diseases that were preventable by a simple vaccination. It makes me cry to see the needless loss. Just let one of those anti-vaccination parents see a baby suffer and die of Whooping Cough (Pertussis), as I have, and I promise, they will ALL run to the doctor to get their children vaccinated. It is a painful death for the child and equally painful for the parents that CAUSED the death by not getting their child vaccinated!
Vaccination should NOT be an option. Not getting a vaccination does NOT only affect that child, it affects all of our children. I've heard parents say that as long as the OTHER children are vaccinated, why should they risk their child and have them vaccinated. How selfish!
PLEASE, This is NOT politics, this is a life and death matter. Science supports vaccination. I don't care what the politicians say. Vaccination is a necessity, not an option.
As a physician I've seen children suffer and die of diseases that were preventable by a simple vaccination. It makes me cry to see the needless loss. Just let one of those anti-vaccination parents see a baby suffer and die of Whooping Cough (Pertussis), as I have, and I promise, they will ALL run to the doctor to get their children vaccinated. It is a painful death for the child and equally painful for the parents that CAUSED the death by not getting their child vaccinated!
Vaccination should NOT be an option. Not getting a vaccination does NOT only affect that child, it affects all of our children. I've heard parents say that as long as the OTHER children are vaccinated, why should they risk their child and have them vaccinated. How selfish!
PLEASE, This is NOT politics, this is a life and death matter. Science supports vaccination. I don't care what the politicians say. Vaccination is a necessity, not an option.
First the Republican science-deniers give us "Well, I'm not a scientist, so I can't comment on climate change." Now they follow that up with, "Well, I'm not a doctor, but I DO know all about vaccines." Brilliant - just brilliant. None of them, as it happens, are generals, but they all swear they're qualified to be Commander in Chief. Go figure.
2
No Mr. Paul. Parents don't "own" their children either. We are custodians of human beings who are intrinsically free from the day they are born. We don't "own" anyone.
7
There are lefties who worry about vaccination, but it's the Republicans who can try to make it a 'libertarian' issue. All that rugged individualism blather translates simply and always has in US history: "Me for mine and none for all."
5
I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only one surprised by the headline. How can a Measles outbreak become a delicate political issue???
I am old enough to remember the children in the "special" wing in my elementary school. A number were children born to mothers who had Rubella when they were pregnant. The result: children born with arms and legs that ended at what would be an elbow or knee in others.
I am old enough to remember the children in the "special" wing in my elementary school. A number were children born to mothers who had Rubella when they were pregnant. The result: children born with arms and legs that ended at what would be an elbow or knee in others.
2
Measles are highly contagious and can kill. Why is there any debate about getting vaccinated?
2
The sun came up yesterday. I got into a car accident yesterday. Therefore the sun coming up causes car accidents. This is the logic a lot of the anti-vaccine crowd uses, logical fallacies such as post hoc ergo propter hoc. My child was vaccinated. My child has autism. Therefore vaccinations cause autism.
There are other issues at work. First of all, autism is all of the sudden a cause célèbre. Rich, famous people have autistic children, therefore it's now a big deal. What's the latest statistic? One in 68 children has autism in the United States. Complete and total nonsense. I never met an autistic kid in my entire time in school, not one. In fact, I've personally known one person knows someone who has autism in my entire 39 years. If one in 68 kids has autism they'd be everywhere. They're not. This is just the latest hysteria. So why the upshoot in the diagnosis? Because they've expanded it. Heck, all of us probably have autism now given the broad definition. One in one has autism!
The other thing is, people need a reason. What, MY kid isn't getting 100's or A's in everything? Why, there must be some medical reason! MY child is perfect. He's autistic! That's it! Now we need treatment and extra care and attention.
This is all a bunch of hogwash. Not only do vaccines not cause autism, autism barely even exists in reality.
There are other issues at work. First of all, autism is all of the sudden a cause célèbre. Rich, famous people have autistic children, therefore it's now a big deal. What's the latest statistic? One in 68 children has autism in the United States. Complete and total nonsense. I never met an autistic kid in my entire time in school, not one. In fact, I've personally known one person knows someone who has autism in my entire 39 years. If one in 68 kids has autism they'd be everywhere. They're not. This is just the latest hysteria. So why the upshoot in the diagnosis? Because they've expanded it. Heck, all of us probably have autism now given the broad definition. One in one has autism!
The other thing is, people need a reason. What, MY kid isn't getting 100's or A's in everything? Why, there must be some medical reason! MY child is perfect. He's autistic! That's it! Now we need treatment and extra care and attention.
This is all a bunch of hogwash. Not only do vaccines not cause autism, autism barely even exists in reality.
5
I suspect that if the issue of whether the Sun revolves around the Earth was an active point of discussion in our day and age, the 'core conservative base' and their poster-children - aka the Republican Presidential candidates - would likely take a decidedly anti-Galileo stance. After all, isn't it pretty clear that the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West, spending all of 12 hours every day to make that trek? The Catholic church sure thought so.
It is obvious that the far right doesn't care about the lives of their children or those of other children. However, do they realize the damage that measles can do to a fetus?
2
The article does not talk much about the liberal enclaves that are home to MANY anti-vaccine parents. One California health official said that if you wants to see where the pockets of unvaccinated children are, you should get a map and draw a circle around the Whole Foods stores. In addition to anti-government libertarians, it is the liberal "nothing artifcial-enters-my-body" knee-jerk anti-GMO crowd also contributing to the comeback of measles and whooping cough.
Looks like on this one, the extremes of the two parties share common ground. Too bad for the rest of us.
Looks like on this one, the extremes of the two parties share common ground. Too bad for the rest of us.
5
It should be clear to everyone what is meant by those who say " we want to take back our country". Back to 1915.
5
At what point do the rights of the collective many trump the rights of the individual few? If parents don’t want to vaccinate their children against diseases, and in the process put other people’s children at risk, I say fine. But don’t expect your child to be welcomed into my home, our schools or other public places. This refusal by some parents to vaccinate their children against preventable diseases, thereby putting the general community at greater risk, is the worst sort of selfishness and narcissism.
5
It's a pretty sad state of affairs in presidential politics when Republican candidates have to pander to vaccine deniers.
If one's electoral prospects depended on such ignorant people, I'd suggest reevaluating my politics.
If one's electoral prospects depended on such ignorant people, I'd suggest reevaluating my politics.
When I saw that Rand Paul, a graduate of the Duke University School of Medicine, suggested that the measles vaccine causes mental disorders, I realized that all hope is lost. Our nation has reached a level of mental depravity that is simply unfathomable. That these people might actually hold positions of leadership is frightening.
6
I wish someone would get these conservatives on record with their answer to the question, "Are your own children and grandchildren vaccinated?"
Many republicans don't believe in dinosaurs. It think it is a anti-science thing.
Why won't many Democratic politicians have the same delicate problem?
Where I live, in the deepest blue part of a bright blue state, the anti-vaccers are mostly liberal Democratic voters in places including Marin County and Berkeley.
How will the Democratic politicians, if they support a call for universal measle vaccinations, avoid insulting their all-natural-lifestyle, feel-right constituents?
I look forward to NYT news coverage of this delicate issue for Democrats.
Where I live, in the deepest blue part of a bright blue state, the anti-vaccers are mostly liberal Democratic voters in places including Marin County and Berkeley.
How will the Democratic politicians, if they support a call for universal measle vaccinations, avoid insulting their all-natural-lifestyle, feel-right constituents?
I look forward to NYT news coverage of this delicate issue for Democrats.
2
The anti-vax movement has acquired the greatest traction in enclaves of liberalism. If Democrats are the party of science, then they need to figure out a way to get through to their own supporters about the importance of vaccines or enact laws that take the matter out of their hands.
4
I really don't know how Christie can say that, especially in the midst of a measles outbreak. Measles is one of the most contagious biological agents out there, and his attitude and answer seem utterly inappropriate. As someone who works in the field of public health (I am a registered sanitarian), his answer shows a willing ignorance of disease communication and, subsequently, indicates he is not fit for a leadership position. We deserve - and should demand - more from the people who are endeavoring to lead this country.
2
So championing scientific knowledge over ignorance and superstition is a "delicate issue?" Since when? Imagine what would happen if the "core conservative voters" thought that flying was witchcraft! Then the GOP would have to handle the "delicate issue" of whether we should have an air force! Just for the record, the "right" of a parent to expose the general public to whatever unvaccinated illnesses he/she chooses to inflict on his/her own child, was ruled not to exist by the US Supreme Court almost 100 years ago. What, exactly, does the Republican Party stand for, if not the rule of law?
5
The connection with Autism has already been discredited and those who continue to claim that as the reason for not vaccinating can only be attributed to inconsistencies in our Information Age. But to those who worry about overtaxing the body with extra "poisons" leaves me puzzled. Certainly the body might consider alcohol or any number of the prescriptions drugs we take as poisons, but it has always been my understanding that any information our immune system can acquire regarding the natural world viz-a-viz viruses and bacteria adds to our ability to combat illness in the future. Perhaps the prolific nature of data dispersion can't assure reasonable answers and therein lies the real illness of the modern world.
1
Should driving on the wrong side of the road be a "personal choice"? How is doing so with your kid in the passenger seat and my kids in your path not child abuse? I'm not a traffic engineer, so of course, have no way of deciding this.
2
Sigh. Gotta sympathize with the GOP. How can they take any rational, scientific stance on an issue after they have done so much to undermine the credibility of science in service to their corporate masters...you know, cigarettes don't cause cancer--and are certainly NOT addictive, there is no such thing as global warming, breathing asbestos is actually good for you....
2
I almost died from the measles during a large outbreak in the 60s when I was a child. I remember how badly my eyes hurt. I was a bookworm, confined to bed, with a high fever, and I couldn't even read. I had to lie in a darkened room with a damp cloth over my eyes for over a week. My mom brought my aunt over to visit with me, and my aunt lived two hours away and couldn't drive. That's how bad it was.
I cannot understand how this could be a "delicate issue" for any modern political party in the era of modern science when we can spare families this kind of suffering.
How can the party that espouses "family values" be so cavalier about a major threat to the family?
Gay marriage is not going to kill your children. Learning about evolution in school is not going to kill your children.
Failing to vaccinate is a child-killer. I am lucky to be alive myself and I would never do anything to make a parent suffer like I saw my parents suffer when I had the measles.
I cannot understand how this could be a "delicate issue" for any modern political party in the era of modern science when we can spare families this kind of suffering.
How can the party that espouses "family values" be so cavalier about a major threat to the family?
Gay marriage is not going to kill your children. Learning about evolution in school is not going to kill your children.
Failing to vaccinate is a child-killer. I am lucky to be alive myself and I would never do anything to make a parent suffer like I saw my parents suffer when I had the measles.
38
NYT needs to promote this response to the top of the heap. It's this kind of sanity and logic that gives me hope about America's future.
1
The schizophrenia of modern day conservatism is truly astounding.
Women should not be permitted to have the right to make choices about the health of their own body during pregnancy because all life is sacred.... but those same women ARE fully entitled to make choices after delivery that can cause the death of other people's children, because personal freedom matters more than the possibility of killing a child.
Women should not be permitted to have the right to make choices about the health of their own body during pregnancy because all life is sacred.... but those same women ARE fully entitled to make choices after delivery that can cause the death of other people's children, because personal freedom matters more than the possibility of killing a child.
2
And let's not forget the impact of rubella on pregnant women. It can cause birth defects and miscarriages.
Since the entire GOP has stated, "we're not scientists", I don't understand what they might have to talk over on this subject...
1
Government has not only a right but an obligation to share with taxpayers the result(s) of research undertaken on their behalf, to include a recommendation(s) regarding what taxpayers should fo with that information; however, government has NO right or obligation to tell taxpayers what taxpayers SHALL do with that information. Parents are the primary educational and caretakers of their children, not government
Tom Coyne
Tom Coyne
Vaccinations, climate change, evolution...the science is overwhelming, the leadership in this country is pathetic. What else will politicians sacrifice in the name of getting re-elected. Mainstream media is just as guilty in keeping Americans mis-informed.
1
Why is this a Republican issue? Is the NYTimes continueing its approach for not reporting the news as is? I know of democrats that will not immunize their children. This is not a political stance, it is a stance that has happened because a British doctor lied outright in a peer reviewed document over a decade ago (he has lost his liscense to practice, but damage done).
There are people that have experienced autism either with one of the kids or have seen another family with a child with autism. They also read the bogus findings about vaccinations being a cause of autism. Regardless of political affiliation, they are afraid. They are Dems and Reps - they are parents.
We must do a better job of teaching them that vaccinations are not dangerous; they save lives. But no politician or law can possibly force a parent to vaccinate a child; or for that matter do anything. I suppose DFACS could run around and remove kids from their homes, but that would be pretty stupid. And, frankly, they have enough trouble following up on abused kids that need to be removed.
BTW I had measles, not a big deal for 99% of the kids. And I've not stomach for creating new laws and policies for the 1%.
There are people that have experienced autism either with one of the kids or have seen another family with a child with autism. They also read the bogus findings about vaccinations being a cause of autism. Regardless of political affiliation, they are afraid. They are Dems and Reps - they are parents.
We must do a better job of teaching them that vaccinations are not dangerous; they save lives. But no politician or law can possibly force a parent to vaccinate a child; or for that matter do anything. I suppose DFACS could run around and remove kids from their homes, but that would be pretty stupid. And, frankly, they have enough trouble following up on abused kids that need to be removed.
BTW I had measles, not a big deal for 99% of the kids. And I've not stomach for creating new laws and policies for the 1%.
1
I am with you, mary, on the general gist of your comment. Just two points:
1. I think it is actually mostly Democrats, not Republicans, who refuse to vaccinate their children.
2. Laws can definitely force a parent to vaccinate their children. Such a law may raise contempt in the parents, but that's another matter.
But, like you, I have no stomach for new laws. We have to many as is. Common sense should be enough.
1. I think it is actually mostly Democrats, not Republicans, who refuse to vaccinate their children.
2. Laws can definitely force a parent to vaccinate their children. Such a law may raise contempt in the parents, but that's another matter.
But, like you, I have no stomach for new laws. We have to many as is. Common sense should be enough.
There is no debate. Schools and places of work should provide vaccine as they did to eradicate polio.
5
My favorite comment on this subject would make a good bumper sticker:
Your right to remain unvaccinated
ends when you step into a public space
Your right to remain unvaccinated
ends when you step into a public space
4
This is NOT a conservative vs left issue. There are plenty of folks on the left who think it's OK to put their own kids - and others - at risk. To paint conservatives as knuckle-draggers on this issue is despicable.
You have to feel sorry for Republican politicians who have to deny climate change, evolution, and the efficacy of vaccinations in order to get elected.
2
This is a perfect example of what happens when a party panders to the less intelligent element of our society. I quote Isaac Asimov: "The problem with our Democracy is that my stupidity is equal to your intelligence."
2
Another issue no one seems to be talking about, is that measles vaccine is given with mumps and rubella vaccine. These are two illnesses that can have devastating consequences - sterility, birth defects, mental retardation.
1
The GOP's core constituent voter base started walking backwards with the Goldwater run for the white house. Picked up the pace a little with Nixon's "moral majority" messaging. Started into a backward trot during the Reagan era
and has been sprinting backward since Bush 2.
Pretty soon they're going to run back-first into a dinosaur some of them claim shared the same time and space with humans during their very own 'Earth is only 6000 years old' myths.
The GOP party, politicians, handlers and financial backers all believe in science but it's very important that their voting base do not. Because if you believe in science and other intellectual matters and really study the problems of the world it doesn't take long to realize that the GOP should be a marginalized and pointless and powerless party. They have prevented huge strides in progress since the Great Depression they helped cause.
You won't hear of any GOP politicians not getting their children vaccinated from measles . . . just their gun toting, climate change denying, Fox News watching base.
and has been sprinting backward since Bush 2.
Pretty soon they're going to run back-first into a dinosaur some of them claim shared the same time and space with humans during their very own 'Earth is only 6000 years old' myths.
The GOP party, politicians, handlers and financial backers all believe in science but it's very important that their voting base do not. Because if you believe in science and other intellectual matters and really study the problems of the world it doesn't take long to realize that the GOP should be a marginalized and pointless and powerless party. They have prevented huge strides in progress since the Great Depression they helped cause.
You won't hear of any GOP politicians not getting their children vaccinated from measles . . . just their gun toting, climate change denying, Fox News watching base.
2
Politicians who don’t support required vaccinations that have been shown to be safe and effective should follow that libertarian logic to its ultimate conclusion. Rand Paul, are you also opposed to laws against drunk driving? If someone wants to drink and drive is that also a case of an individual choice or maybe laws that protect individuals and those around them do make sense.
6
"Parents own the children" is the same argument given when trying to deny medical care to children based on religious grounds. But we do have laws and standards that protect children in a variety of ways, even from their own parents. No parent "owns" their children or any other human being for that matter. As Kahil Gibran said, children are the "sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself...and though they are with you yet they belong not to you."
1
Rand Paul should not be labeled a physician. He's an optometrist. An eye doctor is very different than a "doctor doctor." Howard Dean is a physician. He's an actual legitimate source on this subject.
2
Senator Paul is an ophthalmologist, an MD eye specialist. It's worth pointing out, however, that he was board certified by a board he helped create, rather than the standard board. If we provaccine types want to be known for our respect for facts, it pays to be very careful not to make such mistakes.
Regardless, Paul still went to medical school, took the Hippocratic Oath and should know better.
I can think of few things more craven or damnable than pandering to a person's rank stupidity in a bid to benefit yourself. This is precisely what these Republicans are doing. They rather reinforce their "personal freedom" credentials than ensure public health, knowing full well that the so-called study that prompted this bogus debate was completely discredited. As such, they are leaving vulnerable portions of the population at risk for injury and even death. One supposes that their political handlers have determined that these victims would have been unlikely to vote for their candidacy anyway.
5
I wish I could say that I am astounded that two would-be GOP Presidential candidates have made such irresponsible statements that encourage parents to decline vaccinations for their children. The truth is profoundly sad, however. None of this is a surprise when one reflects on the extreme misinterpretation of free-market and libertarianism mouthed by the GOP. The GOP is leading America towards a total destruction of the Republic as conceived by our Founding Fathers and paid for by the blood of thousands of patriots. Chris Christie and Rand Paul have betrayed the entire American people. We should not tolerate this any more than we would any traitors selling critical secrets to our most dangerous enemies.
2
So much for not being the "Stupid Party" (thanks, Bobby Jindal, for injecting that into our political vernacular).
2
Has anyone died of measles yet in the US (I mean recently, obviously)? I keep hearing about cases but no deaths. I think not vaccinating kids is nuts, but I doubt any behaviors will seriously change until people start dying. If people who contract measles are just sick for a couple weeks then are fine, it won't nudge anyone. I've seen lots of pictures from the early 20th C of measles and of kids in Africa, but no pictures of a contemporary American child with measles. My guess is that people don't believe measles is deadly for a child with access to the US healthcare system - kind of like how almost everyone who got ebola here wound up living. In fact, they probably think getting measles will just make their kids immune "naturally".
5
Here's the thing. Three hundred people die from measles in the world every day. Citizens of the US are not the only people on the planet. Now if you want to see Americans die from measles, just wait. We'll get there before you know it. No one does stupidity quite the way we do.
2
Good article and an even more enlightening video.
The dumbing down of America has real consequences!
The dumbing down of America has real consequences!
1
This isn't even close. Chris Christie who specializes in tough talk and telling citizens to sit down and shut up is a bully and a coward. His attempt at parsing on this subject to curry favor with the base of the GOTea gang is transparent and clumsy. Rand Paul is his father's son, electing a Paul would result in chaos and turn this country into a laughingstock. This is one time, and there are other times, where science and the greater good trumps individual freedom.
There are not two reasonable sides on this issue, let's keep that in mind.
There are not two reasonable sides on this issue, let's keep that in mind.
6
In my own life, I don't see this falling on political lines. I am a registered Democrat and definitely left of center. I've lived in NYC and now DC area and those that I have met who didn't vaccinate their kids have been liberal, UMC, very well educated folks. Not Republicans.
1
Strangely enough, measles and other preventable diseases don't participate in silly ideological unscientific debates...they really don't care who they infect.
1
It's scary that Mr. Paul, who claims to believe in "freedom", thinks parents "own" their children. No, Mr. Paul, parents do not own their children. They are merely responsible for taking care of them until they are old enough to take care of themselves. That's why we have laws against child endangerment and child labor. Would you like to get rid of those, as well, in the name of "freedom"?
6
The "right" to refuse immunization is something more than or other than ignorance. I think it's closer to out-sourcing. Many of these parents have shifted the responsibility; they thought their children would be safe because everyone else was getting vaccinated. They shifted the burden. They could claim a high road of better parenting without risk ---- they thought. The problem was that their numbers were growing, therefore messing up the equation.
There should be a reasonable way to get them and the rest of us out of the dilemma, but unfortunately it looks as though they will become more entrenched in their stubbornness. But if polio gets loose again, the wake-up call will be too loud to ignore.
There should be a reasonable way to get them and the rest of us out of the dilemma, but unfortunately it looks as though they will become more entrenched in their stubbornness. But if polio gets loose again, the wake-up call will be too loud to ignore.
1
Why do conservatives disbelief science? Do we really want to listen to people who disbelieve science?
Why would anyone ever vote for such a person?
Why would anyone ever vote for such a person?
1
Those of us who realize the earth is only 6000 years old know we don't need any silly vaccines for our kids.
1
It's a funny situation that GOP contenders find themselves. While presumably intelligent, they have to pander to the willfully ignorant base of their party. Let the carnival continue.
1
Why is a political party so robust about telling women what they can and cannot do with their bodies - frequently in the face of medical recommendations, social science studies, and plain old common sense, so demur when it comes to one person's right to decide what is and what is not science when it affects all society? Why was this same political party so aggressive and bold about wanting to quarantine trained medical professional who were trained in epidemic containment when they returned to this country with possible exposure to Ebola - which is UNLIKE MEASLES - only possible to transmit when full blown and manifest?
The temptation would be to conclude that this particular party preys upon the ignorant and superstitious and panders to their vote, is racist, sexist, anti-intellectual, reckless with safeguarding the true welfare and education of our children and favors vain-glorious candidates who misrepresent their medical expertise when I maybe would trust them to give me an eye exam, but that's about it.
The temptation would be to conclude that this particular party preys upon the ignorant and superstitious and panders to their vote, is racist, sexist, anti-intellectual, reckless with safeguarding the true welfare and education of our children and favors vain-glorious candidates who misrepresent their medical expertise when I maybe would trust them to give me an eye exam, but that's about it.
2
What is wrong with the GOP? For two generations vaccinations were a public health issue--period. Now, the process has become politicized because politicians want to court the lunatic fringe. In the meantime, many states allow parents to opt out of vaccinations-- setting up just the kind of problem we now face. What ever happened to responsible government, parenting and consideration for the common good?
5
I like Rand Paul's stance on foreign affairs - and I can even agree with him in principle on vaccines. As long as he is willing to accept that public schools can make attendance to their schools contingent upon being vaccinated appropriately. I would also like airlines to have a day a month where the unvaccinated get to fly - otherwise unvaccinated people don't get boarding passes. A few such inconveniences for the Libertarian-oppositional-defiant crowd might nudge them into conceding that while no one is the boss of you, you are lucky enough to live in a society which is relatively healthy and vaccinated because its citizens are not as selfish as you are. I will have to re-think my Rand Paul leanings.
5
Does the Ebola example fits in with the rest of the article? The domestic Ebola scare wasn't really around long enough for reactions to start to calcify along party lines. Gov. Christie's reaction was more or less formed in concert with Gov. Cuomo. It's hard to say that any Ebola planning seemed to favor either conservative values or medical evidence. All political and medical leaders seemed to be figuring it out as they went along.
How about the polio vaccine... if polio reappeared as a threat would politicians support parents' right to choose not to vaccinate?
4
Aaargh!! Who wrote or edited this terrible article?? "Libertarian conservatives" are NOT prevalent in Iowa, and never have been - the Iowa GOP in general and Iowa Republican caucus-goers in particular are overwhelmingly characterized by religious conservatism with a strong emphasis on social issues such as abortion, gay rights and similar. No study has ever shown them to be "libertarian" in the sense that they are skeptical of government action against vaccines or anything else. If anything, they are quite eager for government action to further restrict abortion or physician-assisted suicide and to prevent the recognition of gay civil and legal rights. Do your homework before you publish articles like this!
2
Rand Paul's stance on making measles vaccination optional may be the death nail of his campaign for the Presidency. I personally will make no further donations to his campaign, even though my donations were token. The death rate from measles is near zero, compared to that in the U.K., where vaccination is optional is alarming. A physician, like Rand Paul, should know the consequences of making stupid statements. Even if he actually believes this, the statement demonstrates his lack of campaign savvy.
1
That tells you what kind of "physician" Rand Paul really is. I wouldn't trust him to recommend even a pair of sunglasses at a Sunglass Hut on a strip mall.
A parent's rights do not extend to endangering their child. Even more than that, they do not extend to endangering others.
Those, primarily of the left, who refuse to vaccinate their children are as dangerous as those, primarily of the right, who deny that man in causing climate change. In both cases, they are playing with everyone's life!
Those, primarily of the left, who refuse to vaccinate their children are as dangerous as those, primarily of the right, who deny that man in causing climate change. In both cases, they are playing with everyone's life!
1
The anti vaccination craze is very strong in some of the most heavily Democratic regions of the country. This is not a partisan issue, though it would appear some Republicans are trying to claim it under the banner of personal liberty.
I do not agree with the political ideas of senator Rand Paul but I respected him for his humanitarian efforts in Africa. After I heard him talking about the right of parents not to vaccinate their children I lost all my respect for him. I heard him saying that he saw many children become physically and mentally challenged after vaccination. This is irresponsible and non-factual. I would challenge him to bring evidence of cases that have been scientifically linked to vaccination and for which there is a clear causal effect of the vaccine on the physical and mental challenges of the children. Such statements are socially irresponsible and unacceptable from a responsible member of the medical community.
5
It is much too easy to position conservative objectors to vaccinations as simple-minded when it comes to science. For many, it is not an issue of science but of trust in government.
Have there been times when governments have lied to the people they govern? (Yes.) They may accept that vaccines work generally, but also that it is possible that a big pharma-government handshake has obfuscated test results they don't like, this particular time, this particular vaccine.
Instead of addressing a lack of scientific understanding, it is often this distrust that should be addressed. Reducing corruption in this area is possible through increased transparency (never a bad idea generally), and support of firewalls between the interests of government, pharmaceuticals, and university research labs.
Have there been times when governments have lied to the people they govern? (Yes.) They may accept that vaccines work generally, but also that it is possible that a big pharma-government handshake has obfuscated test results they don't like, this particular time, this particular vaccine.
Instead of addressing a lack of scientific understanding, it is often this distrust that should be addressed. Reducing corruption in this area is possible through increased transparency (never a bad idea generally), and support of firewalls between the interests of government, pharmaceuticals, and university research labs.
I would not anticipate that right-wing or libertarian deniers if vaccine science are also sophisticated enough to notice, and change their mind due to, establishment of "firewalls between government, pharma and university research labs"
I would anticipate that "pro freedom" quips from ophthalmologist Rand Paul will continue to bear more influence than a thousand "firewalls".
I would anticipate that "pro freedom" quips from ophthalmologist Rand Paul will continue to bear more influence than a thousand "firewalls".
I agreed that fear-mongering is a driver! My point is simply this, that (dis)trust is key, not the science of the matter. We on the "pro science" side simply trust an establishment that claims to to have investigated the issue. Nearly none of us have actually looked at the science at any real depth, pro or con.
Mr. Paul ... snapped: “The state doesn’t own your children. Parents own the children.”
This is 19th century thinking on the legal status of children. Most modern legal theorists would say parents have guardianship over children, but they do not exercise any sort of ownership. There's also broad agreement that children have various rights and freedoms (including the right to freedom of religion). Calling the relationship ownership raises questions about child labor as well.
The 1989 UN "Convention on the Rights of the Child" is the crucial international document that governs international law in this matter and overrides any laws that treat children as possessions.
The US has not ratified the treaty because it bans both the death penalty and life imprisonment for children. Obama called it embarassing that the US hasn't.
This is 19th century thinking on the legal status of children. Most modern legal theorists would say parents have guardianship over children, but they do not exercise any sort of ownership. There's also broad agreement that children have various rights and freedoms (including the right to freedom of religion). Calling the relationship ownership raises questions about child labor as well.
The 1989 UN "Convention on the Rights of the Child" is the crucial international document that governs international law in this matter and overrides any laws that treat children as possessions.
The US has not ratified the treaty because it bans both the death penalty and life imprisonment for children. Obama called it embarassing that the US hasn't.
5
Yes it was this last sentence from Mr. Paul that is the eye opener! Well, maybe just confirmation as to the lunacy of his position as a person of influence and power.
There's no real debate about safety, so public health considerations win. But while the NYT foams up about the GOP, let's not forget Obama and Hillary Clinton's role in confusing the useful idiots when they sidled up to the plaintiffs lawyers a few years ago claiming that the science wasn't settled--well after it had been.
American political conservatism gets traction on the issue of anti-vaccination as it appeals to two core values, the right to be stupid, and the right to be left alone.
2
Rand Paul is an ophthalmologist. I'm not sure that calling him a physician is really appropriate here, as it suggests that he treats more than just the eyes. His expertise in the area of immunization is highly suspect.
4
maybe it's time to set up an actual alternate universe for those individuals who don't believe in science. then we can get some proof on which society fairs better.
This is not a debate. Anyone who is willing to reject definitive scientific fact is not a legitimate candidate president. Climate skeptics. Vaccine skeptics. What's next, smoking is linked to cancer skeptics? Or gravity skeptics?
"Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher." (Luke 6:39-40)
"Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher." (Luke 6:39-40)
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Affluent, articulate, half-educated, self-indulgent, and self-deluded. Sounds like the perfect Republican activist.
And if there were a vaccine for ebola just a few months ago, you know they would have demanded it be given to all travelers to and from Africa. They simply seek to control public fear in their favor, losing all sense of reason.
In this case, they've lost sense of responsibility. This is like the seatbelt law, which saves people from themselves, but more importantly saves those others who have no defense against certain diseases, too.
In this case, they've lost sense of responsibility. This is like the seatbelt law, which saves people from themselves, but more importantly saves those others who have no defense against certain diseases, too.
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We are in the year 2015, yes, 2015, not 1815 or 1915, and we are debating this nonsense. Where is this country intellectually when the political class believes that a viable candidate is one who consults the "View" to confirm scientific findings. Maybe the Republicans have it right, we have become a nation of bread and circuses---while our planet disappears and we disappear from some plague, we study books on fantasy football.
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I wonder if the republicans see Fox News and the Post as elements of the circus they apparently describe.
I do not understand the argument. If vaccines are effective as advertised at preventing a disease, then why does it matter that some citizens reject vaccines? The citizens that utilize vaccines should be protected regardless.
Almost always. It is the ones who cannot fight infection who have the most to worry about. Kids with cancer have it bad enough -- they shouldn't have to worry about formerly eradicated diseases as well.
Because babies and people with immunodeficiency (including many people with cancer) cannot be immunized.
That's not how vaccines work. Unfortunately that's something most people don't understand. Vaccines don't offer 100% certainty to be protected. Vaccination relies on something known as Herd Immunity. The idea is simple. If vaccines hold in enough people the virus is starved of hosts and carriers, eventually dying out. If there are enough unvaccinated people walking around the virus lingers on in the population preying on those in whom the vaccines didn't work or on those who have compromised immune systems and could not be vaccinated or haven't been vaccinated for other reasons. Vaccines offer substantial protection to most people, but work at best in large populations.
Jacobson v. Massachusetts gave states the authority to enforce mandatory vaccination 110 years ago. Similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses can refuse blood transfusions, but they cannot refuse them on behalf of their children -- they are not allow to martyr their children for their own beliefs.
The posturing of politicians, as they try to poll-test and triangulate to arrive at their deeply held core beliefs about personal freedom and vaccine policy, would be comical were not the consequences of their pandering for votes so serious.
The posturing of politicians, as they try to poll-test and triangulate to arrive at their deeply held core beliefs about personal freedom and vaccine policy, would be comical were not the consequences of their pandering for votes so serious.
A candidate who waffles, who doesn't have the moral courage to take an actual stand on vaccinations, pro or con -- even the most irrational of anti-vaxxers have the courage of their convictions -- proves automatically that he or she hasn't got the guts to be president of the United States.
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Which seems to be evidence that a great many anti-vaxxers have been spending a bit too much time outdoors flying kites in thunderstorms.