How's that reset coming along, Ms. Clinton? Just as Chief Justice Roberts said when he upheld the ACA, that it's not his job to protect the people from themselves, i.e. the progressive liberals. Whose job is it to protect the US from the disastrous decision of such an incompetent and dangerous administration?
2
There is some resemblance to this conflict and the Spanish Revolution with Franco the winner. Stalin lost and Mussolini and Hitler used the war as military practice. Putin wants as much of eastern Ukraine as he can get to ensure the safety and access ability for his Black Sea Fleet. End of story. I cannot see a different ending here. War with Russia over this would be madness and Putin knows it. No sanctions are strong enough to counter his move to keep Russia's warm water fleet.
3
Perhaps, the NYT does not realise that the cost is already TOO HIGH for the American Taxpayer. The NATO partners started aggression against Russia by trying to make Ukrayina, the cradle of Russianness, to join NATO. If America can break up Sudan (creating South Sudan) and East Timor from Indonesia, why not accept as fact that people of Eastern HALF of Ukrayina, who identify themselves as Russians, would like to self-governing Russians, rather live under Western inspired Fascist Ukraine.
14
The federalization train that the NYT talks about left the station along time ago when Kiev decided to seek a military solution to the problem and Poroshenko declared that Ukraine was a unitary state and there would be no federalization.
Since Kiev has that point of view, what sort of negotiations can be carried on with Poroshenko unless the US really leans on him which is doubtful they would given the fanatical Nuland's position at State. It may be essential to let Kiev lose and then they will understand federalization. Only defeat will make them compromise on federalization which is the real solution to the problem.
Since Kiev has that point of view, what sort of negotiations can be carried on with Poroshenko unless the US really leans on him which is doubtful they would given the fanatical Nuland's position at State. It may be essential to let Kiev lose and then they will understand federalization. Only defeat will make them compromise on federalization which is the real solution to the problem.
10
US inspired putsch overthrows democratically elected government. Neo nazis are put in the forefront of the new government. Semantha Powers In the UN notes that it was Kiev soldiers who shot down the airplane over UKRAINE . And
suddenly Russia is the enemy of world piece. Look in the mirror, America.
suddenly Russia is the enemy of world piece. Look in the mirror, America.
18
I am amazed to see so many comments in sympathy with Putin's actions in the Ukraine. No matter what Ukrainians did to get rid of their previous pro-Russian government, it was their business not ours and not Russia's as long as the new government represents no threat - which it doesn't. As for those who claim we have tried to surround Russia with military bases and missiles, the only countries we have expanded military facilities into are new NATO members who are frightened of a future Russian threat - not an unreasonable fear especially for the Baltic States in view of events in Georgia and now Ukraine where Putin uses a Hitler tactic of pretending to act for the Russian minority (remember Czechoslovakia in 1938?).
Putin is manipulating his people with the nationalist card (much as Bush junior played the fear card to get Americans behind the Iraq invasion). He routinely and effortlessly lies about the involvement of Russian regular forces in Ukraine. He is a brute.
We should do all we reasonably can for Ukraine without making things worse (a delicate balance) but we need to stand ready to buttress Poland's and the Baltic States' defences against future Russian moves in their direction.
Putin is manipulating his people with the nationalist card (much as Bush junior played the fear card to get Americans behind the Iraq invasion). He routinely and effortlessly lies about the involvement of Russian regular forces in Ukraine. He is a brute.
We should do all we reasonably can for Ukraine without making things worse (a delicate balance) but we need to stand ready to buttress Poland's and the Baltic States' defences against future Russian moves in their direction.
20
Please stop blaming Mr. Putin for setting up a NATO camp in Ukraine that was set up by a squadron of Senators, State Department officials, and NATO sidekicks as part of their sortie into Ukraine to oust the government and install the chocolate oligarch with NATO backing. Nice ploy to try to blame Mr. Putin for our sortie into Ukraine but our fingerprints are all over the incursion into Russia's front porch.
16
How increase the cost? The premeditated attack on the ruble and draconian sanctions were not able to sway President Putin, why would doubling-down? The irony is that the EU is bearing the full cost, while the US gloats about its strengthening economy. President Putin has always been perfectly clear about his vision for eastern Ukraine. He has also been perfectly clear that he will not stand aside while Kiev bombards civilians. The onus is on Kiev and its western enablers to accept federalization now or partition later.
7
Obama had said that the Ukrainians should solve this problem themselves Outside countries should leave Ukraine to resolve the conflict itself. However it sounds illogical that even as the US demands that the Russians de-escalate, the United States is acting otherwise.
I fully agree with your assessment that any "lethal assistance could open a dangerous new chapter in the struggle — a chapter Mr. Putin would quite possibly welcome, as it would “confirm” his propaganda claims of Western aggression".
Russians are no amateurs and Americans will be well advised keep off boots on ground under whatever pretext. Hopefully Washington positioning military advisers to help Ukraine fight the separatists in the eastern part of the country does not preclude direct military involvement unless it wants to play right in to Putin's hands.
I fully agree with Ron Paul response to hawkish stand of Senator John McCain " Why are US government officials so eager to tell the Ukrainians what they should do? Has anyone bothered to ask the Ukrainians? What if might help alleviate the ongoing violence and bloodshed, if the Ukrainians decided to re-make the country as a looser confederation of regions rather than one tightly controlled by a central government? Perhaps Ukraine engaged in peaceful trade with countries both to the west and east would benefit all sides. But outside powers seem to be fighting a proxy war, with Ukraine suffering the most because of it."
I fully agree with your assessment that any "lethal assistance could open a dangerous new chapter in the struggle — a chapter Mr. Putin would quite possibly welcome, as it would “confirm” his propaganda claims of Western aggression".
Russians are no amateurs and Americans will be well advised keep off boots on ground under whatever pretext. Hopefully Washington positioning military advisers to help Ukraine fight the separatists in the eastern part of the country does not preclude direct military involvement unless it wants to play right in to Putin's hands.
I fully agree with Ron Paul response to hawkish stand of Senator John McCain " Why are US government officials so eager to tell the Ukrainians what they should do? Has anyone bothered to ask the Ukrainians? What if might help alleviate the ongoing violence and bloodshed, if the Ukrainians decided to re-make the country as a looser confederation of regions rather than one tightly controlled by a central government? Perhaps Ukraine engaged in peaceful trade with countries both to the west and east would benefit all sides. But outside powers seem to be fighting a proxy war, with Ukraine suffering the most because of it."
7
Please US do not try to impose democracy by the use of shipping weapons to the Ukraine. It did not work in Afghanistan or in Iraq and it vill for sure not work in the Ukraine. Don´t put us on the brink of a widespread war in Europe.
This time the opponent is in a different division.
There must be another solution.
This time the opponent is in a different division.
There must be another solution.
10
Let the east have their desired independence. Work to get a UN Peacekeeping force along the new boarder. And begin the process of welcoming Ukraine into the EU - and ultimately NATO.
Lastly, invest heavily in Ukraine's economy and help build a new industrial base, while increasing sanctions on Russia and the newly independent state.
Putin gets his "Russian speaking" buffer state that he will need to support at great expense.
Lastly, invest heavily in Ukraine's economy and help build a new industrial base, while increasing sanctions on Russia and the newly independent state.
Putin gets his "Russian speaking" buffer state that he will need to support at great expense.
2
The American Chicken Hawk, that venal fowl, plays a mean set of war drums. But, it is never seen in the fog of war. This excursion will be no different.
7
The US shoves NATO up to the gates of Russia, implants missiles on its borders, engineers with Nazi and neoNazi violence the overthrow of a democratically elected government that prefers to deal with Russia than with the austerity-and-privatizing prone Euro banks, installs "our guy Yats" as prime minister who claims that WWII resulted when the USSR invaded Germany and Ukraine, proposes to substitute US natural gas to bump the Russian competition and arranges for Joe Biden's son to help direct Ukraine's fossil fuel sector - all the while blaming and demonizing Putin as a thug. Presumably all these foreign policy experts knew in advance how Russia would react to the threat of losing it's only warm water Naval port to NATO ships. The US establishment, the 1%, hopes to ensure Ukrainian poverty and Russia to accept a hostile military alliance surrounding it with hundreds of foreign military bases along with increased sabotage, concocted insurrections and eventually Balkanization. The superpower and its barky dog Israel claim to be terrified at the possibility that non-nuclear Iran will join the club. But nary a word about pushing Russia's thousands of nuclear buttons. Will the foreign policy experts, like the Times editors, please call for a public discussion on where another nuclear confrontation might lead?
8
I can't imagine a weaker, more blinkered position than that the Times takes. Personalizing this as if it were some kind of bizarre behavior on Putin's part to resist twenty years of continual eastern movement on the part of the US-controlled NATO alliance until it has come up to Russia's very border. Putin is doing the things any Russian leader would have to do or he would be removed, just as an American leader who did nothing when a major foreign power tried to arm and form an alliance with a government friendly to it Canada or Mexico (particularly a government empowered by behind the scenes by that foreign power, as the US backed the coup in Ukraine against its democratically elected President). Arming the Ukraine government cannot be perceived as an act of war by the US on Russia (just as the US would perceive the arming of a hostile Canadian regime. What vital US interest is engaged in Ukraine? None I can see except US Neo-con inspired word domination. As an American citizen, I strongly believe that we should stay out of this mess. This could so easily become a hot war! Not to mention the fact that the US is destroying ties to Russia, a country that might some day be a vital allay in a confrontation with China. PLEASE give us more balance, if not on the editorial page, then in your news reporting! Send a reporter to the scene and keep her there (which you haven't done).
10
We (the US, UK and Russia) guaranteed "to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine." as part of binding commitments by which Ukraine surrendered their nuclear weapons.
Why isn't that mentioned anywhere in this editorial?
Surely we can see he implications with regards to other countries which may consider deploying nuclear arms.
http://www.cfr.org/nonproliferation-arms-control-and-disarmament/budapes...
Why isn't that mentioned anywhere in this editorial?
Surely we can see he implications with regards to other countries which may consider deploying nuclear arms.
http://www.cfr.org/nonproliferation-arms-control-and-disarmament/budapes...
1
It is the Kiev regime that is attacking Eastern Ukraine. As the US helped put them in power it should be stopping them from attacking Donetsk and Luhansk and bombing the populated areas. The US should should be working with Russia to end the fighting.
9
So if you're a Russian client, its OK to get all the guns you want. Even little green men. But if you're not, and are fighting a Russian client, then "Good luck, Mac".
Not sure why supplying arms to Ukraine is so controversial. The Soviets certainly did the same thing to North Vietnam, Cuba, Angola, Syria, Egypt, etc etc, and didn't seem to cause a 3rd World War.
Seems to me the choice is guns now, or boots on the ground later. Those who want us to keep our hands not just clean, but completely pristine are either fools, or worse. Either way, they rest assured they wont have to experience the practical effects of their folly.
Not sure why supplying arms to Ukraine is so controversial. The Soviets certainly did the same thing to North Vietnam, Cuba, Angola, Syria, Egypt, etc etc, and didn't seem to cause a 3rd World War.
Seems to me the choice is guns now, or boots on the ground later. Those who want us to keep our hands not just clean, but completely pristine are either fools, or worse. Either way, they rest assured they wont have to experience the practical effects of their folly.
6
Russia today attacked the Ukraine, it will not stop there. Tomorrow Russia will attack the Baltic States, then to Eastern Europe. Russian Ivan worse fascist
5
"compelled to increase the cost"
Now THAT'S funny. OK, if you want to increase the cost of Putin's gamble, you have to ante up. For America, that means ramp up a selective service draft and bring 1 million young men into uniform. That means activating a fleet of 30-year old ships that can still launch a missile. That means, OMG, paying for it. That means putting a naval battle group into the Baltic to confine Russian air and sea adventurism to Russian territorial air and waters. For good measure, it means putting a cork on Vladivostok to shut off Russian adventures in the Pacific.
Raising the cost will be on American tax payers, not on Russian.
Now THAT'S funny. OK, if you want to increase the cost of Putin's gamble, you have to ante up. For America, that means ramp up a selective service draft and bring 1 million young men into uniform. That means activating a fleet of 30-year old ships that can still launch a missile. That means, OMG, paying for it. That means putting a naval battle group into the Baltic to confine Russian air and sea adventurism to Russian territorial air and waters. For good measure, it means putting a cork on Vladivostok to shut off Russian adventures in the Pacific.
Raising the cost will be on American tax payers, not on Russian.
4
One must ask oneself what the Parties involved hope to gain. It is obvious that the West, despite the end of the Cold War, has not relinquished their 60's ambitions of bringing the Russian Bear to it's knees. Encirclement by NATO, more bases, more missiles, and a lack of understanding Russia's needs and culture has alienated what once was a grand partnership of two cultures emboldened by engaging in Space programs to scientific advances. Now all that has evaporated due to the expansionist policies of The New Amewrican Century. There are limits to Russia's patience with NATO and the ignorance of Americans to look at their need to protect their own culture from giving way to American Exceptionalism.
8
What is UNO (United Nations Organization) doing to stop the world conflict? Will it remain relevance to resolve the armed conflicts or will remain a mute spectator?
2
Why am I not hearing "regime change" from our neoconservative ex-leaders and pundits? Because we'd be picking on somebody our own size for a change? If so, it certainly proves the hypocrisy of that foreign policy strategy.
12
February 2, 2015
What once was call the East West rivalry in The Cold War has morphed thanks for the love of Ukraine.
The divide is more to do about the future and – spheres of - ‘ accommodation to very powerful power politics that surrounds the lands almost as much as the Soviet era – without some states such as Poland and Unified Germany. How the drama works its way forward is not singularly about Russia but the modalities to confront the raging of Muslims wars, and as well the Pivot in the Asian Pacific – and so the fulcrum of the grand destiny for our new world disorder ( sorry to Henry Kissinger and his attempt to define what is for a new generation of global politics – and the divide (‘s,)
Jja Manhattan, N.Y.
What once was call the East West rivalry in The Cold War has morphed thanks for the love of Ukraine.
The divide is more to do about the future and – spheres of - ‘ accommodation to very powerful power politics that surrounds the lands almost as much as the Soviet era – without some states such as Poland and Unified Germany. How the drama works its way forward is not singularly about Russia but the modalities to confront the raging of Muslims wars, and as well the Pivot in the Asian Pacific – and so the fulcrum of the grand destiny for our new world disorder ( sorry to Henry Kissinger and his attempt to define what is for a new generation of global politics – and the divide (‘s,)
Jja Manhattan, N.Y.
3
The more immediate danger is that a Russian air incursion will result in an accident and/or a shoot down. That could rapidly escalate out of control. We might look the other way at the downing of a Third Part airliner but a Western Alliance aircraft commercial or military?
1
As History has repeatedly shown, "Mother Russia" can take an enormous amount of pain when it comes to defending it's interests. NATO and certain financial interests went too far in trying to take over the Ukraine and the Crimea. General Wesley Clark has correctly raised the alarm against further escalation. Thankfully, we do have a cool head in President Obama.
I hope he does not given into hot heads in Congress and at the Pentagon.
Those familiar with the ethic divisions in Ukraine know that the only solution now is to divide the country into two.
I hope he does not given into hot heads in Congress and at the Pentagon.
Those familiar with the ethic divisions in Ukraine know that the only solution now is to divide the country into two.
10
The paper which underwrote the invasion and occupation of a sovereign Iraq in 2003 has nothing whatever to tell Russia about what justice is.
12
The U.S. forces left Iraq. What are the odds that Russian forces will leave Ukraine?
7
American send troops half way round the world to murder the leader of Iraq and destroy it's power to address terrorism in that region.
Naturally American media looks to a nation that is addressing fighting that is literally on its current and historic borders.
Sit back -- that same murderous irrationality is at play in Washington, and the Capital will cease being a world leader before the next POTUS takes office.
Washington falls in 2015/16 and elements of the media (ex FoxNews) will assist.
"Death Over Life: Secret of Revelation: A Prophecy of America's Destruction"
http://www.amazon.com/Death-Over-Life-Revelation-Destruction/dp/1497427169
Naturally American media looks to a nation that is addressing fighting that is literally on its current and historic borders.
Sit back -- that same murderous irrationality is at play in Washington, and the Capital will cease being a world leader before the next POTUS takes office.
Washington falls in 2015/16 and elements of the media (ex FoxNews) will assist.
"Death Over Life: Secret of Revelation: A Prophecy of America's Destruction"
http://www.amazon.com/Death-Over-Life-Revelation-Destruction/dp/1497427169
3
The Minsk Agreement foresaw autonomy for Donbass. Unfortunately the Ukrainian government ignored all parts of the agreement except for the one that foresaw renewed government control over the whole border. In the way the government interpreted this this would allow them to isolate the rebels from Russia. Given that Ukraine did nothing to give them autonomy the rebels predictably feared that the government saw the agreement just as an opportunity to crush them.
The main fight at the moment - the airport and Debaltsevo - are about the rebels protecting themselves and their citizens from regular attacks and shellings. Things may change in the future, but for the moment the rebel operations have a defensive goal. As such the complaints in the article about Putin's aggression are not justified.
The main fight at the moment - the airport and Debaltsevo - are about the rebels protecting themselves and their citizens from regular attacks and shellings. Things may change in the future, but for the moment the rebel operations have a defensive goal. As such the complaints in the article about Putin's aggression are not justified.
9
As stated in a separate article ... ' Speaking in Moscow, Konstantin Kosachev, the head of foreign affairs committee in the Russian parliament's upper house, warned Washington that supplies of lethal weapons to Ukraine would lead to "further escalation of the conflict," the Interfax news agency reported. '
Geez, this is like the politburo calling the kettle black.
Obviously someone needs to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Ukrainians, especially since we were there getting our many photo-ops as they strove for western democracy.
Historically, we have been there for far less friendly nations in their hours of need, so I don't understand the current dilemma in the White House. We made Ukraine a solemn promise long ago when we wanted them in the non-nuclear club, we fully encouraged them to follow the path to democracy and rise up against their rulers.
Now... all we do is say sanctions are biting Moscow and 'wonder' if we should 'consider' supplying the much needed arms to Ukraine to defend themselves from an obvious Russian developed onslaught.
Geez, this is like the politburo calling the kettle black.
Obviously someone needs to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Ukrainians, especially since we were there getting our many photo-ops as they strove for western democracy.
Historically, we have been there for far less friendly nations in their hours of need, so I don't understand the current dilemma in the White House. We made Ukraine a solemn promise long ago when we wanted them in the non-nuclear club, we fully encouraged them to follow the path to democracy and rise up against their rulers.
Now... all we do is say sanctions are biting Moscow and 'wonder' if we should 'consider' supplying the much needed arms to Ukraine to defend themselves from an obvious Russian developed onslaught.
5
The situation is difficult precisely because Putin knows the West does not want to fight in Ukraine. American hands are tied. As much the United States would like to take credit for Putin's recent troubles through sanctions, sanctions were never successful in Iraq and took years to begin to bear fruit in Iran. It is unlikely that six months of sanctions caused the collapse of the Russian economy. The dramatic fall in oil prices is far more significant.
The answer is that, other than arming the rebels, there is little that the West is willing and politically able to do. A war with Russia over eastern Ukraine is unthinkable at this point in time, and direct Western involvement by the US or Europe is politically untenable. The short answer is that it is far more important to Putin to fight this conflict (or as a proxy war), than it means to the West, still recovering from 15 years of war in the Middle East. Putin knows this fact. Though it is a difficult pill to swallow, eastern Ukraine is all but lost, barring some major victories by the Kiev-government forces. The only real course of action would be to provide arms (maybe through an intermediary country, though direct aid would be a strong message).
The danger is that Putin is learning a lesson that there are no real repercussions for aggressive adventurism abroad. If he continues, when the West finally decides he has crossed the line, it may be too late, and a serious conflict will be unavoidable.
The answer is that, other than arming the rebels, there is little that the West is willing and politically able to do. A war with Russia over eastern Ukraine is unthinkable at this point in time, and direct Western involvement by the US or Europe is politically untenable. The short answer is that it is far more important to Putin to fight this conflict (or as a proxy war), than it means to the West, still recovering from 15 years of war in the Middle East. Putin knows this fact. Though it is a difficult pill to swallow, eastern Ukraine is all but lost, barring some major victories by the Kiev-government forces. The only real course of action would be to provide arms (maybe through an intermediary country, though direct aid would be a strong message).
The danger is that Putin is learning a lesson that there are no real repercussions for aggressive adventurism abroad. If he continues, when the West finally decides he has crossed the line, it may be too late, and a serious conflict will be unavoidable.
5
Do you really think a Kiev victory over Donetsk and Lugansk accompanied by the slaughter or show-trials of their leaders would bring peace? I think you will find it will bring more hatred and violence to the regions. There are already saboteurs at work in other eastern Oblasts, it would only get worse with a Kiev victory. The Donbas is lost and Kiev needs to accept the fact and make a peace NOT based on the outworn and useless Minsk agreements of last year.
3
This is the problem with tough guys. They only have one act- aggression. Don't expect Putin to come to the table. His most important audience is the Russian citizens. He cannot afford to look weak under any circumstances. But the reality is catching up. And he is looking for a scapegoat.
4
Why should Putin come to the table? He is not directing the Separatist forces in Ukraine. How about we start talking ot Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky who are actually directing the military campaign against Kiev. We need to find out what they want if we ever expect to have peace in Ukraine. We can't ignore them and pretend they don't exist. Kiev's refusal to listen to them back in March and April is what got us here today. So maybe John Kerry should think about talking to them instead of toe Lavrov - I know it would "hurt" his pride - but he needs to swallow that if he wants peace.
5
One other solution to Putin's strategy is for the Russian people to reject his colonialism and remove him (peacefully or forcefully) from power. Putin knows this and that is why he has moved to control the Russian media and foster new fear of the West.
5
I hope that Putin will heed the Times's solemn warning. If he continues his military aggressions against Russia's neighbors, "the United States and Europe will be compelled to increase the cost."
Boldly spoken New York Times! That threat will have Putin quaking in his jackboots.
Seriously, though, with feckless, pusillanimous bleating like this by the Times, is it any wonder that Putin has embarked on another round of adventurism?
NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN! thou shouldst be living at this hour.
Boldly spoken New York Times! That threat will have Putin quaking in his jackboots.
Seriously, though, with feckless, pusillanimous bleating like this by the Times, is it any wonder that Putin has embarked on another round of adventurism?
NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN! thou shouldst be living at this hour.
3
Don't try to solve the problem by negotiation. The Russia's aim is complete destruction of Ukraine - either immediate by the full-scale military intervention or "prolonged" - by the means of "frozen conflicts".
Any negotiations Russia will treat as sign of US (and the West in general) weakness: "Look at Ukraine, US guaranties worth nothing. NATO worthies nothing". Think, do you want it?
Any negotiations Russia will treat as sign of US (and the West in general) weakness: "Look at Ukraine, US guaranties worth nothing. NATO worthies nothing". Think, do you want it?
4
The assumption that Ukraine is a Russian satellite state is like saying is Europe a satellite state of Russian or is Japan a satellite state of China? This conflict is all about one man and his Stalinist views.
5
In time, your words will prove to be prophetic.
Russia will continue to carve away at Europe.
China will one day take over Japan and the rest of Asia.
The big fish eat the little ones. Natural selection. Evolution.
Call it what you will, but in the end, there will be three power blocs fighting to reduce the field to two power blocs.
Russia will continue to carve away at Europe.
China will one day take over Japan and the rest of Asia.
The big fish eat the little ones. Natural selection. Evolution.
Call it what you will, but in the end, there will be three power blocs fighting to reduce the field to two power blocs.
This is NOT Mr. Putin's war. It is a Ukrainian war and it is Ukrainian who are fighting and dying. Kiev is looking and receiving arms from NATO countries (but once more advanced one from the US). and the soldiers of the DNI are getting some military aid from Russia.
We have military trainers and advisors in Ukraine ( we send Military personal and CIA to advise Kiev). Thus it can just as well be called Mr. Obama's war as well as you can call it Mr. Putin's war.
The editorial board has taken a position based on talking or listening to those who talk to the government in Kiev. I have yet to read a report of ANY US OFFICIAL talking to Mr. Zakharchenko or Plotnitsky. Why not? They are the ones conducting the war on the opposition side - but no one wants to talk to them. Why is that?
When we negotiate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict we talk to both sides. Why can't we talk to both sides in this conflict. And NO Russia is NOT one of the sides in the conflict. The conflict is between 2 oblasts and Kiev government. Yet like an Ostrich we stick out head in the sand and refuse to talk to the opposition to Kiev.
If we truly want peace, we will not supply Kiev with weapons, and WE (i.e. John Kerry) can talk to both Kiev and Donetsk/Lugansk and try to understand their needs as well as Kiev. It is only when we talk to both sides that we can start on the road to peace.
Editorials like this DO NOT contribute to Peace - only make war more bitter and more likely to spread.
We have military trainers and advisors in Ukraine ( we send Military personal and CIA to advise Kiev). Thus it can just as well be called Mr. Obama's war as well as you can call it Mr. Putin's war.
The editorial board has taken a position based on talking or listening to those who talk to the government in Kiev. I have yet to read a report of ANY US OFFICIAL talking to Mr. Zakharchenko or Plotnitsky. Why not? They are the ones conducting the war on the opposition side - but no one wants to talk to them. Why is that?
When we negotiate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict we talk to both sides. Why can't we talk to both sides in this conflict. And NO Russia is NOT one of the sides in the conflict. The conflict is between 2 oblasts and Kiev government. Yet like an Ostrich we stick out head in the sand and refuse to talk to the opposition to Kiev.
If we truly want peace, we will not supply Kiev with weapons, and WE (i.e. John Kerry) can talk to both Kiev and Donetsk/Lugansk and try to understand their needs as well as Kiev. It is only when we talk to both sides that we can start on the road to peace.
Editorials like this DO NOT contribute to Peace - only make war more bitter and more likely to spread.
8
Putin is drawing in the West to a military confrontation. The war is on Russia's doorstep, easy for Russia to support, far away and costly for the West. It is a war of attrition that keeps Ukraine impoverished. Russia intends to keep Crimea and to dominate the Ukraine, forcing Kiev to have a pro-Russian government Old fashioned 19th century imperialism.
Putin murdered hundreds of innocent Russians in the apartment bombings of 1999, in order to gain power. In Ryazan the three suspects that planted a bomb were detained and produced FSB identification cards. They were released on orders from Moscow. Journalists and members of a committee that sought to investigate the case were assassinated.
A serial killer does not negotiate. Violence has rewarded Putin with power and popularity. He will continue false-flag acts of provocation to draw the West into war.
The most effective weapon we have is the truth. The West should send out the truth on the Internet and other media, broadcast the truth to the Russian people and to the Russian army in the field in Ukraine and in Russia. The Russian people must be told about the monster in the Kremlin.
Putin murdered hundreds of innocent Russians in the apartment bombings of 1999, in order to gain power. In Ryazan the three suspects that planted a bomb were detained and produced FSB identification cards. They were released on orders from Moscow. Journalists and members of a committee that sought to investigate the case were assassinated.
A serial killer does not negotiate. Violence has rewarded Putin with power and popularity. He will continue false-flag acts of provocation to draw the West into war.
The most effective weapon we have is the truth. The West should send out the truth on the Internet and other media, broadcast the truth to the Russian people and to the Russian army in the field in Ukraine and in Russia. The Russian people must be told about the monster in the Kremlin.
3
The truth will not set Ukraine free.
Overwhelming force is their only salvation.
It's a shame they don't have that force.
Ukraine will end up as an unwilling part of the Eurasian Customs Union.
Overwhelming force is their only salvation.
It's a shame they don't have that force.
Ukraine will end up as an unwilling part of the Eurasian Customs Union.
Has anybody asked what the people of eastern Ukraine really want?
8
Please, not again.
This time can we just let those people kill on another, with their gleeful abandon, without killing Americans?
We didn't start it. We cannot stop it.
Do what we do best. Economic aggression.
Putin is a clown. Stalin was not.
Russia is coming apart. Let it.
This time can we just let those people kill on another, with their gleeful abandon, without killing Americans?
We didn't start it. We cannot stop it.
Do what we do best. Economic aggression.
Putin is a clown. Stalin was not.
Russia is coming apart. Let it.
5
We should not engage unstable heads of state who are likely to reach a point of desperation as their economy tanks. If we don't go down that route now, we won't be forced into escalation later. Why must we be the ones to send them aid anyway? Isn't there a whole slew of countries next door to the Ukraine just itching for them to join their club? If its the EU who wants it, why is it America who must fight for it?
1
Another opportunity for the NYT to show its appeasement of the Obama administration. Or just another chance to bash Russia and refute any legitimate security concerns of Russia. The media guided by the White House has successfully pinned this war on a nasty Russia as disclosed by Snowden. One question for the NYT - when will we see images of Russia's involvement.
6
Just what 'legitimate security concerns' does Putin have? He has never mentioned any...
2
How about NATO on its border - that's not a problem for Russia?. That's my concern but would you like Russian nukes in Mexico and Canada?. We know what JFK thought about it - willing to start a nuclear war over it. Get it? didn't think so.
4
Putin has a master plan to reestablish the old USSR and add to it's sphere of control. One of the first strategies of the plan is to have the western countries empty their treasures on proxy wars. I.e., Ukraine, Iraq, Syria, ISIS, Iran, etc. It wants us to become financially weak as well as physically tired of conflicts.
In his plan, sanctions against Russia will not work if he can foster enough patriotism with the masses of uninformed citizens and/or control them mercilessly. The plan worked for 70 years for the old USSR and he feels it will work again and long enough for him to tire the enemy. As poor and backward as the Russian masses were during the communist years, they were still motivated through fear of the invaders or fear of the government to fight the enemy. It was Hitler in the 30's & 40's, the U.S. after that; it will be the West again in the coming years.
Putin's throwback mentality will succeed unless we answer likewise, and millions will die. The other alternative is "peace in our time" which means to let him have what he wants as long as it is not my country.
My only hope is that China will feel as threatened as the rest of us and backs whatever action is necessary to control Putin. If China decides to look the other way or make its own power play...
In his plan, sanctions against Russia will not work if he can foster enough patriotism with the masses of uninformed citizens and/or control them mercilessly. The plan worked for 70 years for the old USSR and he feels it will work again and long enough for him to tire the enemy. As poor and backward as the Russian masses were during the communist years, they were still motivated through fear of the invaders or fear of the government to fight the enemy. It was Hitler in the 30's & 40's, the U.S. after that; it will be the West again in the coming years.
Putin's throwback mentality will succeed unless we answer likewise, and millions will die. The other alternative is "peace in our time" which means to let him have what he wants as long as it is not my country.
My only hope is that China will feel as threatened as the rest of us and backs whatever action is necessary to control Putin. If China decides to look the other way or make its own power play...
19
China isn't feeling threatened yet, because Putin's delusions have been West-facing, and are likely to remain that way, because the man is a lot of things, but stupid isn't one of them.
The smart play by China would be to string this conflict along, because while the West is facing off with Joe Stalin II, oil prices are going to be kept low. Nobody in China hates cheap oil.
The smart play by China would be to string this conflict along, because while the West is facing off with Joe Stalin II, oil prices are going to be kept low. Nobody in China hates cheap oil.
2
I agreed with NATO Commander Gen. Breedlove and the former Clinton and Obama officials who are calling on the U.S. to provide DEFENSIVE military assistance to Ukraine -- like anti-tank weapons, counter-artillery radars, and tactical drones -- that would help the Ukrainian military defend itself against the heavy offensive weapons supplied by Russia, like tanks, GRAD rockets, and the BUK anti-aircraft system that shot down Malaysian Air flight 17 last July.
For many years, the U.S. has helped ** disarm ** Ukraine – by destroying both its nuclear arsenal and what were once large stockpiles of conventional weapons inherited from the U.S.S.R. -- in return for security guarantees by the U.S., United Kingdom, and Russia. While that had a noble aim – promoting peace through disarmament – it has simply given Russia an opening to invade a now defenseless neighbor.
Having gone to such lengths to persuade Ukraine to disarm, no other country will ever seriously consider nuclear disarmament if the international community leaves Ukraine defenseless against this naked Russian aggression. We should immediately provide Ukraine with the $350 million in defensive weapons that Congress has already unanimously voted to authorize, and begin work on the revised $3 billion package recommended by the Atlantic Council, the Brookings Institution, the Center for a New American Security, and the Chicago Council on Global Affairs.
For many years, the U.S. has helped ** disarm ** Ukraine – by destroying both its nuclear arsenal and what were once large stockpiles of conventional weapons inherited from the U.S.S.R. -- in return for security guarantees by the U.S., United Kingdom, and Russia. While that had a noble aim – promoting peace through disarmament – it has simply given Russia an opening to invade a now defenseless neighbor.
Having gone to such lengths to persuade Ukraine to disarm, no other country will ever seriously consider nuclear disarmament if the international community leaves Ukraine defenseless against this naked Russian aggression. We should immediately provide Ukraine with the $350 million in defensive weapons that Congress has already unanimously voted to authorize, and begin work on the revised $3 billion package recommended by the Atlantic Council, the Brookings Institution, the Center for a New American Security, and the Chicago Council on Global Affairs.
32
i called for the same things about 10 months back- instead the EU and U.S. bent over backwards in trying to accommodate Putin/Russia all of it due to his stranglehold of oil and nat gas supplies to Europe and of course economic trade... i'll say this for the hundredth time- "Profits come before Liberty, Freedom and Democracy", otherwise Russia would be a third world country by now and Putin hanging from a lamp post, like Mussolini.
4
Wow have you tried reading something that other than the NYT that does not have the fingerprints of the US government all over it.
How about really learning what the other side wants and I don't mean Putin - I mean that the people in Donetsk and Lugansk who just want freedom from Kiev. They are fighting for their Independence - you know the right of Self-determination which is in our Constitution, the UN charter and Wilson's 14 points.
How about really learning what the other side wants and I don't mean Putin - I mean that the people in Donetsk and Lugansk who just want freedom from Kiev. They are fighting for their Independence - you know the right of Self-determination which is in our Constitution, the UN charter and Wilson's 14 points.
2
My Russian friends in Ukraine tell me that they just want the fighting to stop. Period. Neither the Ukraine or Russia have the ability to make that happen, much less the United States and European weapons and armaments and any other tools of destruction. Trying to hurt Putin by hurting the Russian people defies logic, reason, and common sense. If the Ukrainian people need food, shelter, utilities and a way forward to get on with their lives, then more guns, bullets, war, pain and death, needs to be understood as no way forward. Perhaps the government of the Ukraine also cannot win fighting separatists from an area that probably generally supports their efforts. There are some really smart people both inside and outside Russia and Ukraine who can help them find peace. Mankind's problems are created by man and therefore can be solved by man. Time to find the answers that alleviate suffering even if those solutions are right but not necessarily popular.
18
The fighting will stop when Putin decides it should stop. Until then, good luck.
1
So much for Slavic "Brotherhood"- Russians want Ukraine as their own and Ukraine wants nothing to do with them.... the best thing now is for your Russian friends to move to Russia for if and when its all over, it'll be like the Balkans- lots of bitter hatred left over and will never be forgotten- these Slavs are nuts, as nutty as those ISIS crazies.
1
This is a very clear and focused editorial. To me the linchpin of the situation is your observation, "There is definitely potential for negotiations there." In fact, given the Obama White House preferences against military intervention and its broader global agendas, negotiating is probably the only thing that is going to happen for the next two years. War will continue on a parallel track and Mr. Obama will be sure to keep "clean hands" even as the Russians will be sure to continue to charge otherwise. The interesting point, is what will happen on day one of the next Administration. And assuming Mr. Putin's policies extend to that point, how Russia plans to respond.
There are other global flashpoints and hotspots that may indeed boil over into overt engagement with American forces directly engaged, such as the ISIS conflict, prior to Obama leaving office. But I suspect that Mr. Obama's deep reservoir of patience for negotiation, and his absence of other cards to play, ensures that this mess will continue to fester without the USA providing an effective deterrent or realizing a meaningful solution.
Thank you for highlighting this issue in such a clear fashion.
There are other global flashpoints and hotspots that may indeed boil over into overt engagement with American forces directly engaged, such as the ISIS conflict, prior to Obama leaving office. But I suspect that Mr. Obama's deep reservoir of patience for negotiation, and his absence of other cards to play, ensures that this mess will continue to fester without the USA providing an effective deterrent or realizing a meaningful solution.
Thank you for highlighting this issue in such a clear fashion.
3
This is a real foreign policy failure of multiple Administrations in the U.S. Russia pretended for decades to be "first among equals" in the USSR, but everyone knew it held Eastern Europe and the Soviet Socialist Republics as satellites because of Russia's deep distrust of the West; a distrust born of bitter experience from Napoleon to Austria-Hungary to National Socialist Germany. After the dismemberment of the USSR and the complete independence of the former satellites, Russia needed -- and received -- American assurances that NATO would not seek to expand eastward. Yet that is precisely what NATO has done, and if Americans will recall, the proximal cause of armed struggle in Ukraine was the decision to begin discussions for eventual membership in NATO. While it is true that Putin was attempting to tie Ukraine more closely to Russia, it is not true that this entire episode came from nowhere. If it was wrong of Putin to want to influence the direction of Ukraine's foreign policy, it is certainly no less wrong for us to do the same.
16
The editorialist would do well to describe Mr. Obama's Ukraine policy in light of his failures of judgment in Iraq and Syria. The President, decidedly slow and cautious, places an unlimited faith in soft power, economics, and the passage of time. This one-sided approach to policy on security matters is alarming, dangerous, and ultimately immoral. The message that I hear daily from friends in Ukraine is that time is not on their side. And they are shocked that the US and NATO allies have not backed up our promises of protection (the Clinton era Budapest Memorandum, under which Ukraine gave up its nukes) with the defensive arms their elected officials have been begging for during the last 11 months. Mr. Obama may become the last person in Washington who can find a reason not to send defensive radar and arms to Ukraine. His pacifist approach is clearly fueling Russian aggression. Yes Ukrainians want peace! But the NY Times has repeatedly penned apologies for versions of great power "settlements" for Ukraine which Ukrainians do not want, which are, variously: loss of political sovereignty, Russian veto over the EU Association, and (self)-exclusion from NATO. The US should offer defensive armaments to force Putin to discuss something Ukraine does want: reform, sovereignty,and defense. Perhaps Mr Obama worries that shipping arms may fuel Putin's narrative of American agency. But that's the story no matter what the US does; Kremlin propaganda requires no reality to operate.
1
Russian statements are more plausible than NYT. Why are the Ukrainians lobbing shells into civilian areas? They have no reason to be in eastern Ukraine. Their coup didn't win the entire country, Certainly not strategically important areas that the drunken Yeltsin made vulnerable when the Soviet Union was dismembered by the Oligarchs with the US on the sidelines cheering this thoughtless event. The country should be federated and Porchenko and his crew should pull back.
4
you mean the pro separatists are doing that- more Kremlin propaganda one would think that a person would get his info from various sources instead of Puitn-owned media rags.
Putin is grandstanding. We should call out his bluff. His country is teetering towards total collapse. With decreased oil revenues and sanctions Russia is already on a downward spiral. We should use the 'chokehold' here - total sanctions by Europe and us. We will see him retreat so fast only to meet a hostile Russian Citizenry and send him running towards the diplomatic table. FOR SURE!
Putin's does not state his goals with clarity, but they are crystal clear from observation of his conduct during the past 12 years.
He will not tolerate the actual independence of any state that used to be part of the USSR -- by actual independence, I mean the making of decisions about the state's course and future without guaranteeing veto power to the Kremlin.
When the Kremlin speaks of "Federation" for Ukraine, this means that Putin's clients in Donbass would be empowered to make their own foreign policy. Imagine that New York State were occupied by armed men who proclaimed themselves the new government, conducted a sham "referendum" at gunpoint, arresting, beating or murdering those who protest their rule.
Then further imagine that the "Republic of New York" insists on its own foreign policy, with trade pacts, embassies, and military allegiances having no regard for the laws and policies of the United States.
THAT is what Putin means when he speaks of "Federation" -- destruction of national sovereignty. If Ukraine were to accept the foreign imposition of such degradation, it would remain a state in name only.
He will not tolerate the actual independence of any state that used to be part of the USSR -- by actual independence, I mean the making of decisions about the state's course and future without guaranteeing veto power to the Kremlin.
When the Kremlin speaks of "Federation" for Ukraine, this means that Putin's clients in Donbass would be empowered to make their own foreign policy. Imagine that New York State were occupied by armed men who proclaimed themselves the new government, conducted a sham "referendum" at gunpoint, arresting, beating or murdering those who protest their rule.
Then further imagine that the "Republic of New York" insists on its own foreign policy, with trade pacts, embassies, and military allegiances having no regard for the laws and policies of the United States.
THAT is what Putin means when he speaks of "Federation" -- destruction of national sovereignty. If Ukraine were to accept the foreign imposition of such degradation, it would remain a state in name only.
43
I am not sure if this resembles the return of the Rhineland or the acquisition of Sudetenland. The one strengthened German industrial might. The second was satisfying to the German psyche. Perhaps if we wait until he demands the enclaves in the Baltic States we shall have a better idea.
As in 1938 and 1939 the European powers have other, economic, fish to fry.
Under the sheets, the EU is coming apart -- and with it, NATO, The latter has been useful in providing political cover for not well thought out U.S, military involvement hither and yon. The American people had been satisdied by their leaders that as long as there was an alliance, it must be a worthwhile thing.
As in 1938 and 1939 the European powers have other, economic, fish to fry.
Under the sheets, the EU is coming apart -- and with it, NATO, The latter has been useful in providing political cover for not well thought out U.S, military involvement hither and yon. The American people had been satisdied by their leaders that as long as there was an alliance, it must be a worthwhile thing.
2
I listened to Fareed Zakaria's recent one on one interview with President Obama. Mr. Obama said it would be unwise to engage a nation like Russia with military power which was why we were opposing it with diplomatic moves and economic sanctions. "Unwise" is certainly an understatement! But diplomatic moves and even more so economic sanctions can lead to military conflict. Some historians have suggested our economic strategy in East Asia in the early 20th century played a part in Japan's decision to attack us at Pearl Harbor. What is our national interest in the Ukraine that makes this conflict with Russia worth the risk?
22
Our interest is not necessarily in Ukraine but in the principles of sovereignty and rule of international laws. Though a Euro oriented democracy between Russia and the rest of Europe is in everyone's interest. Just ask the Poles or Lithuanians. Oh, sorry, forgot, they don't matter to us either....
3
My subjective observation: Eastern Ukraine is conflicted. Polls
show the ethnic Russians do not necessarily wannabe part of Russia.
I suppose there must be some kind of popular referendum, and try to go
to whatever will seemingly work with least bloodshed from there.
show the ethnic Russians do not necessarily wannabe part of Russia.
I suppose there must be some kind of popular referendum, and try to go
to whatever will seemingly work with least bloodshed from there.
1
In 1962, the United States was willing to start a nuclear war that would have ended mankind as we know it because Russia had set up missiles and military bases on our doorstep in Cuba. Today, the U.S. and its western allies want to set up NATO missiles and bases on Russia's doorstep. Can we really blame Putin for his response to these aggressive threats we have taken to Russian security? I venture to say that this is not just Putin, but the vast majority of the Russian people who feel this way.
3
Not sure why my comments can't get posted on this matter so far. But really my view is quite simple, and has been stated by others too.
If we give arms to Ukraine and get involved in this civil war on Russia's border, it could easily lead to nuclear war, which would be the end of civilization in the northern hemisphere at minimum, and possibly the end of humanity. That's not hyperbole in the slightest, the nuclear arsenals of Russia's and ours are quite enough to make humanity extinct.
If we don't give arms to Ukraine, eventually the sides get tired of fighting, or Russia finally just takes what it wants and puts an end to the fighting by overpowering force. At most, a million casualties or so. Negligible damage compared to the extinction of humanity.
So there's no choice at all here, we can lean on Russia with sanctions but we cannot and must not ship arms into Ukraine or get involved militarily.
If we give arms to Ukraine and get involved in this civil war on Russia's border, it could easily lead to nuclear war, which would be the end of civilization in the northern hemisphere at minimum, and possibly the end of humanity. That's not hyperbole in the slightest, the nuclear arsenals of Russia's and ours are quite enough to make humanity extinct.
If we don't give arms to Ukraine, eventually the sides get tired of fighting, or Russia finally just takes what it wants and puts an end to the fighting by overpowering force. At most, a million casualties or so. Negligible damage compared to the extinction of humanity.
So there's no choice at all here, we can lean on Russia with sanctions but we cannot and must not ship arms into Ukraine or get involved militarily.
2
@ Dan:
The problem is that your theory has been tried before -- and it led to the most ruinous war in the history of mankind. France and Britain let Hitler take what he wanted -- the remilitarization of the Rhineland, the anschluss with Austria, the seizure of Sudetenland and all of Czechoslovakia ... and then the invasion of Poland by Hitler and Stalin.
But you seriously think, like Neville Chamberlain, that Putin will just "take what he wants" in Ukraine, and the crisis will be over. How wrong you are. As the Times says, we turned a blind eye to Putin's other aggressions -- Transdniestria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. But Putin's appetite grew with eating. Emboldened by the West's feckless responses, he then seized Crimea and eastern Ukraine ... tomorrow Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania? Then who will be the main course? The stakes will be far greater. A new World War at Europe's front door.
I mean that it is pacifists like you who make nuclear war more likely by encouraging bullies to believe that we are too fat and happy and unprincipled to resist their bullying.
The problem is that your theory has been tried before -- and it led to the most ruinous war in the history of mankind. France and Britain let Hitler take what he wanted -- the remilitarization of the Rhineland, the anschluss with Austria, the seizure of Sudetenland and all of Czechoslovakia ... and then the invasion of Poland by Hitler and Stalin.
But you seriously think, like Neville Chamberlain, that Putin will just "take what he wants" in Ukraine, and the crisis will be over. How wrong you are. As the Times says, we turned a blind eye to Putin's other aggressions -- Transdniestria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. But Putin's appetite grew with eating. Emboldened by the West's feckless responses, he then seized Crimea and eastern Ukraine ... tomorrow Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania? Then who will be the main course? The stakes will be far greater. A new World War at Europe's front door.
I mean that it is pacifists like you who make nuclear war more likely by encouraging bullies to believe that we are too fat and happy and unprincipled to resist their bullying.
2
Dear Ian Maitland,
There aren't any parallels here with Hitler in the slightest way. Russia is not a bankrupt nation with rampant poverty and no economic future. Russia hasn't been vilifying any ethnicities as the source of all their trouble, unlike America with Muslims. Russia hasn't been invading and conquering countries based on no provocation, unlike America with Iraq. Think back to Georgia's little scuffle with Russia; Georgia initiated it, Russia reacted with considerable reserve, and then Russia pulled back to where they were at the outset. Russia could easily have absorbed Georgia and didn't.
So sorry, but your drawing a parallel to WWII simply doesn't connect to the facts.
There aren't any parallels here with Hitler in the slightest way. Russia is not a bankrupt nation with rampant poverty and no economic future. Russia hasn't been vilifying any ethnicities as the source of all their trouble, unlike America with Muslims. Russia hasn't been invading and conquering countries based on no provocation, unlike America with Iraq. Think back to Georgia's little scuffle with Russia; Georgia initiated it, Russia reacted with considerable reserve, and then Russia pulled back to where they were at the outset. Russia could easily have absorbed Georgia and didn't.
So sorry, but your drawing a parallel to WWII simply doesn't connect to the facts.
2
The levels of historical illiteracy here are incredible.
Look to the early 50's and how all the Allies agreement to an Austrian constitution which forbad foreign alliances or foreign garrisons lead to a unified prosperous neutral Austria without British, French, American or Soviet garrisons.
Look to the mid 50's when American insistence on rearming a Germany (whose defeat just a decade earlier had been primarily the work of the Red Army at a cost of some 40 million casualties) and incorporating it into NATO combined with a rejection of the type of constitutional arrangements that had worked so well in diffusing the situation in Austria lead to decades of a divided Germany heavily garrisoned by the US and the USSR, lead to the creation of the Warsaw Pact and provided that ever so profitable environment for the military industrial complex the President Eisenhower tried to warn the American People about.
Look to the early 50's and how all the Allies agreement to an Austrian constitution which forbad foreign alliances or foreign garrisons lead to a unified prosperous neutral Austria without British, French, American or Soviet garrisons.
Look to the mid 50's when American insistence on rearming a Germany (whose defeat just a decade earlier had been primarily the work of the Red Army at a cost of some 40 million casualties) and incorporating it into NATO combined with a rejection of the type of constitutional arrangements that had worked so well in diffusing the situation in Austria lead to decades of a divided Germany heavily garrisoned by the US and the USSR, lead to the creation of the Warsaw Pact and provided that ever so profitable environment for the military industrial complex the President Eisenhower tried to warn the American People about.
1
Shouldn't Lithuanians, Estonians, Finns and Ukrainians be allowed to decide what they'd like their foreign policy to be?
Because you propose that Russian tanks determine the policy of those nations-not their citizenry.
Because you propose that Russian tanks determine the policy of those nations-not their citizenry.
3
Study Ukrainian history, especially the strife-torn 1919-1922 period. This war should be viewed in the context of that one, which ended with Ukraine being forcefully annexed and restyled a "Soviet Socialist Republic". Internal security operations conducted by the GRU/NKVD between 1920-1935 employed terror weapons that included targeted assassinations, forced collectivization and famine against the general population. Millions of Ukrainians perished or were deported to Soviet prison colonies. These enormous crimes are now obscured by the horrors of the Great Patriotic War, but it should not be forgotten that in 1941 the Ukrainian people greeted German soldiers as saviors and liberators.
Russia's long-term aim now, and before, is to crush independence in Ukraine by destroying Ukrainian ethnic identity, especially any sense of nationhood. During the Soviet period Ukrainian culture was suppressed through legal proscript. Speaking in Ukrainian was deemed "anti-Soviet", a counter-revolutionary crime. Public education was Russian-language only.
Poland, the other ethnic polity in that region, barely escaped the same fate but only for a few years, falling to Russian/German partition in late 1939.
Past is prologue, and their ancient enemy returns seeking vengence.
Geography inextricably links both nations. Any defense of Poland actually rests on the banks of the Don River. Better rush them modern armaments while there's still something to save.
Russia's long-term aim now, and before, is to crush independence in Ukraine by destroying Ukrainian ethnic identity, especially any sense of nationhood. During the Soviet period Ukrainian culture was suppressed through legal proscript. Speaking in Ukrainian was deemed "anti-Soviet", a counter-revolutionary crime. Public education was Russian-language only.
Poland, the other ethnic polity in that region, barely escaped the same fate but only for a few years, falling to Russian/German partition in late 1939.
Past is prologue, and their ancient enemy returns seeking vengence.
Geography inextricably links both nations. Any defense of Poland actually rests on the banks of the Don River. Better rush them modern armaments while there's still something to save.
5
The Russians have their perspective, the Ukranians have their perspective, but what is the best interest of the United States?
1) It is not to risk military intervention into a far off conflict that we cannot hope to win, but would be drawn into for years and years to come - this alone could be a hope of Mr. Putin.
2) It is not to pour endless dollars into a questionable Ukranian government which is close to being a failed state and will certainly act as a black hole for money.
3) It is not to further enflame the Russians just for the sake of 'punishment' - though for their actions, the LEADERS deserve it - it is just not for the USA to be the judge and jury in that part of the world (when Europe is on the doorstep and does nothing)
4) Interestingly it is not in the interests of the USA to crush the Russian economy so badly that the people suffer unduly and moreover the entire world economy suffers when the Russian markets are damaged or lost.
This is not the super bowl where one team will win and the other lose. If a bad play is called we dont want Mr. Obama calling for the Presidential Football.
1) It is not to risk military intervention into a far off conflict that we cannot hope to win, but would be drawn into for years and years to come - this alone could be a hope of Mr. Putin.
2) It is not to pour endless dollars into a questionable Ukranian government which is close to being a failed state and will certainly act as a black hole for money.
3) It is not to further enflame the Russians just for the sake of 'punishment' - though for their actions, the LEADERS deserve it - it is just not for the USA to be the judge and jury in that part of the world (when Europe is on the doorstep and does nothing)
4) Interestingly it is not in the interests of the USA to crush the Russian economy so badly that the people suffer unduly and moreover the entire world economy suffers when the Russian markets are damaged or lost.
This is not the super bowl where one team will win and the other lose. If a bad play is called we dont want Mr. Obama calling for the Presidential Football.
7
Putin is not only reprising the Cold War, he's reprising WW II, and aggressive nations seeking hegemony over their neighbors. It's not acceptable behavior.
Increase sanctions even more, and stop Putin's money machine. And I think it's only right to consider what can be done militarily. There's nothing wrong with keeping diplomacy flowing, but considering defensive force is legitimate in the face of such an unethical and unjust aggressor.
Increase sanctions even more, and stop Putin's money machine. And I think it's only right to consider what can be done militarily. There's nothing wrong with keeping diplomacy flowing, but considering defensive force is legitimate in the face of such an unethical and unjust aggressor.
6
Russia has said that's what it wants. So let's get on with a deal. People are dying.
2
How about what Ukraine wants ?? - Last time I checked it was a sovereign country ?
3
If the USA interfere again that may well result in World War 3. They mustn't interfere in another country's affairs!
4
It is Russian troops and weapons in eastern Ukraine,. Russian tanks which took the Crimea by force (and of course parts of Georgia not long ago).
It is Russia "interfering" via military force, to take land which belonged to its neighbors.
Pretending otherwise is a farce.
It is Russia "interfering" via military force, to take land which belonged to its neighbors.
Pretending otherwise is a farce.
4
Putin does not need war! He has many times wanted to sign a peace treaty, Ukraine has not give denied.
I do not understand why all of America is doing. Problems in the country enough, but Obama does not solve. It is very sad!
Why should ordinary people due to suffer?
I do not understand why all of America is doing. Problems in the country enough, but Obama does not solve. It is very sad!
Why should ordinary people due to suffer?
6
Mr Putin won't even admit that Russia is sending troops and weapons to fight in eastern Ukraine.
He has lied repeatedly. Why should he be trusted?
He has lied repeatedly. Why should he be trusted?
4
Why not buy a bunch of weapons from the Chinese (or better yet, the Russians through third parties) and use those to arm the Ukrainians?
No presence of American made weapons means not playing into Putin's propaganda narrative...
No presence of American made weapons means not playing into Putin's propaganda narrative...
Hold everything, why is the United States taking the lead in defending the Ukraine, can someone explain this to me ? I can understand in giving some aid to the Ukraine, but why the lead? This is a European problem, & Europeans should take the lead & the bulk of the cost. Our infrastructure is falling apart, our Airports in comparison to European Airports look like a throw back to the 1930s.
The influx of European immigrants are next to nothing, because most Europeans are enjoying the cradle to grave economy, which is popular in Europe, while in the United States, people like congressman Ryan would like to take Social Security, & Medicare away from us claiming it's out of control, & draining our economy. Lets take the Billions that are given away to give other countries a better life & concentrate on Americans that can't make ends meet.Wake up America this is your hard earned money they are about to give away.
The influx of European immigrants are next to nothing, because most Europeans are enjoying the cradle to grave economy, which is popular in Europe, while in the United States, people like congressman Ryan would like to take Social Security, & Medicare away from us claiming it's out of control, & draining our economy. Lets take the Billions that are given away to give other countries a better life & concentrate on Americans that can't make ends meet.Wake up America this is your hard earned money they are about to give away.
4
"The lead"??? The U.S. has given hardly anything to support Ukraine other than grandiose speeches and rhetoric from Obama. Unless you consider some military rations, night vision goggles and armored vests "the lead", please understand how little the U.S. has actually done to support Ukraine, a country whose sovereign territorial integrity the U.S. guaranteed when it signed the Budapest Memorandum, by which Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear arsenal. Do you think the U.S. will ever be trusted again by any country negotiating giving up any type of weapons or policy concessions?
People are being slaughtered in Eastern Ukraine by Putin's illegal war. The Tatars are having their rights trampled on by Russia's puppet regime led by a mafia style stooge in Crimea.
And you're worried if you're going to be able to afford the new I-Phone??? Nice to see such a caring attitude. The citizens of Ukraine thank you for being duped into giving up their nukes and trusting the U.S. to be a country of its word.
People are being slaughtered in Eastern Ukraine by Putin's illegal war. The Tatars are having their rights trampled on by Russia's puppet regime led by a mafia style stooge in Crimea.
And you're worried if you're going to be able to afford the new I-Phone??? Nice to see such a caring attitude. The citizens of Ukraine thank you for being duped into giving up their nukes and trusting the U.S. to be a country of its word.
3
Brent,
I'm sorry, I didn't realize the Ukraine was supposed to be a US Protectorate.Charity begins at home, We still have millions of people that are unemployed, or working part time.Our Bridges are falling down,,thousands of Americans feel Disenfranchised.China has most of our currency, & the last time I looked the streets are not paved with gold.We have lost billions of dollars & thousands of lives in Korea, Vietnam,Iraq & Afghanistan, & accomplished nothing.Our Marshall Plan after the 2nd World War, put Europe back on it's feet. We have sacrificed enough, it's time for someone else to take the Lead.We have nothing to be ashamed of.
When we promise to do something we usually keep our word unless the American public stands up & says enough , we have done much more than our share.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize the Ukraine was supposed to be a US Protectorate.Charity begins at home, We still have millions of people that are unemployed, or working part time.Our Bridges are falling down,,thousands of Americans feel Disenfranchised.China has most of our currency, & the last time I looked the streets are not paved with gold.We have lost billions of dollars & thousands of lives in Korea, Vietnam,Iraq & Afghanistan, & accomplished nothing.Our Marshall Plan after the 2nd World War, put Europe back on it's feet. We have sacrificed enough, it's time for someone else to take the Lead.We have nothing to be ashamed of.
When we promise to do something we usually keep our word unless the American public stands up & says enough , we have done much more than our share.
2
"The Russian economy is staggering under the twinned onslaught of low oil prices and sanctions."
So, in order to divert attention from these issues, Putin pushes ahead with a plan to liberate Russian speaking Ukrainians from what he purports to the tyrannical and illegitimate Government in Kiev. Create some outrage. Appeal to a sense of Russian pride.
A similar thing occurred in Argentina during the period of the dirty war. Argentinians didn’t like their Government’s economic policies or its annoying habit of kidnapping, torturing and murdering their fellow citizens. In response, the Generals invaded the Falklands in a bid to regain its popularity and control over the people.
In both cases, why not fix the problems at home?
So, in order to divert attention from these issues, Putin pushes ahead with a plan to liberate Russian speaking Ukrainians from what he purports to the tyrannical and illegitimate Government in Kiev. Create some outrage. Appeal to a sense of Russian pride.
A similar thing occurred in Argentina during the period of the dirty war. Argentinians didn’t like their Government’s economic policies or its annoying habit of kidnapping, torturing and murdering their fellow citizens. In response, the Generals invaded the Falklands in a bid to regain its popularity and control over the people.
In both cases, why not fix the problems at home?
5
Putin is a dictator passed the tipping point into ever more violence. Should he conquer all of Ukraine (which he himself defined as "his real problem"), he would militarize Russia even more than it already is, and make the economic situation even worse. So only more aggression would then stabilize his regime.
This pattern has been seen throughout history: militarization and invasion stabilize the augmentation of dictatorship.
Once Putin has conquered Ukraine, he will push for more: he has already partly occupied Moldavia, WEST of Ukraine. Putin is already messing up with Hungary: there were street demonstrations about this, just yesterday, in Hungary. Putin uses the fact that Hungary is extremely dependent upon Russia's fossil fuels.
Thus, piece by piece, Putin is exactly following Hitler's playbook, complete with a collapsing, over-militarizing economy. Putin is just more careful, because he knows Hitler went too fast. We have to give him an unambiguous warning that he will be stopped. The earlier, the less costly.
This pattern has been seen throughout history: militarization and invasion stabilize the augmentation of dictatorship.
Once Putin has conquered Ukraine, he will push for more: he has already partly occupied Moldavia, WEST of Ukraine. Putin is already messing up with Hungary: there were street demonstrations about this, just yesterday, in Hungary. Putin uses the fact that Hungary is extremely dependent upon Russia's fossil fuels.
Thus, piece by piece, Putin is exactly following Hitler's playbook, complete with a collapsing, over-militarizing economy. Putin is just more careful, because he knows Hitler went too fast. We have to give him an unambiguous warning that he will be stopped. The earlier, the less costly.
10
"But if the evidence continues to accumulate that Mr. Putin and the rebels are carving out a permanent rebel-held enclave in eastern Ukraine, à la Transdniestria, Abkhazia or South Ossetia, he must know that the United States and Europe will be compelled to increase the cost."
The trouble with this advice is that it has no anchor in time. The Russian aid to the rebels of Eastern Ukraine has been substantial for many months. How much more 'evidence' is needed to conclude that Putin is up to grinding down the country even if he will not occupy it outright.
That is an end game in itself for Putin and his New Russia ideology. Waiting to help Ukraine defend itself until that game is formally declared is naive in the extreme.
The trouble with this advice is that it has no anchor in time. The Russian aid to the rebels of Eastern Ukraine has been substantial for many months. How much more 'evidence' is needed to conclude that Putin is up to grinding down the country even if he will not occupy it outright.
That is an end game in itself for Putin and his New Russia ideology. Waiting to help Ukraine defend itself until that game is formally declared is naive in the extreme.
4
The same pro-Russian voices that jump up defending poor Mother Russia at every chance are back and more strident than ever. If only your voices actually represented anything besides Mr. Putins desires to recreate a modern Greater Russian empire I would be very more sympathetic. But this is about much more than just Ukraine. Every bordering country has become more than a little concerned about the aggressive behavior coming from the Kremlin and rightfully so. I certainly don't want a war with anyone but it appears that only the same kind of military power Mr. Putin uses and displays to get what he wants is the only kind of power he respects. To show any thing else, will only result in more aggression on his part.
4
Read Pavlo's comments from Kiev. Also, the deposed President had just completed building himself a huge "palace", and his corrupt crony oligarchs were looting Ukraine, when the people threw them out.
Concededly, Ukraine is within Russia's sphere of influence. All of those countries after each war over the last few hundred years became fiefdoms of the prevailing country, until the next war.
Look at what Putin did to Georgia when it tried to implement democracy. The Georgian "Russian" provinces there are languishing, despite Putin's takeover, and he has not sent them the aid as promised, other than to leave Russian military there. Inside Estonia, Putin kidnapped an Estonian "agent", allegedly spying "on" and "in" Russia. And he has his eye on the other Baltic Republics, who are attempting to succeed with their freedom. In Moldova, Putin is inciting problems there, which may be next on his list.
He has become a dictator, using Hitlerian tactics to expand his insatiable power grasp, under the guise of nationalism. The average Russian remains impoverished despite his rise to power.
Watch Frontline's program on Putin's rise to power, which details his corruption as a deputy mayor et seq., his KGB background, his oligarch cronies' rise, and the final scene, which Putin remembers as a poor youth, living in a one room apartment with his parents: When a rat in that apartment was cornered, it attacked back. Maybe, he still has the chance to recant and change.
Concededly, Ukraine is within Russia's sphere of influence. All of those countries after each war over the last few hundred years became fiefdoms of the prevailing country, until the next war.
Look at what Putin did to Georgia when it tried to implement democracy. The Georgian "Russian" provinces there are languishing, despite Putin's takeover, and he has not sent them the aid as promised, other than to leave Russian military there. Inside Estonia, Putin kidnapped an Estonian "agent", allegedly spying "on" and "in" Russia. And he has his eye on the other Baltic Republics, who are attempting to succeed with their freedom. In Moldova, Putin is inciting problems there, which may be next on his list.
He has become a dictator, using Hitlerian tactics to expand his insatiable power grasp, under the guise of nationalism. The average Russian remains impoverished despite his rise to power.
Watch Frontline's program on Putin's rise to power, which details his corruption as a deputy mayor et seq., his KGB background, his oligarch cronies' rise, and the final scene, which Putin remembers as a poor youth, living in a one room apartment with his parents: When a rat in that apartment was cornered, it attacked back. Maybe, he still has the chance to recant and change.
7
I am revising a first draft of a historical novel centered on the 1938 Munich Crisis. Significant parts of the NYT editorial are almost word-for-word out of the failed thinking of Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in London and Foreign Minister Georges Bonnet in Paris in 1938.
Unlike 1938, the Western democracies today are strong and robust while the dictator is weak and getting weaker. Putin should face increased costs and military pressure across the entire front in the Ukraine and at each step of any plan of escalation he undertakes. And there should be no talk about "federation." That was the fatal flaw in Czechoslovakia in 1938 with regard to the Sudetenland Germans and it would set a terrible precedent with regard to the Baltics and other satellite states on Russia's periphery.
Sometimes principles should be upheld in the face of intimidation.
Unlike 1938, the Western democracies today are strong and robust while the dictator is weak and getting weaker. Putin should face increased costs and military pressure across the entire front in the Ukraine and at each step of any plan of escalation he undertakes. And there should be no talk about "federation." That was the fatal flaw in Czechoslovakia in 1938 with regard to the Sudetenland Germans and it would set a terrible precedent with regard to the Baltics and other satellite states on Russia's periphery.
Sometimes principles should be upheld in the face of intimidation.
16
You write good fiction. This has nothing to do with Munich, despite the attempts of some to wave the Nazi flag a la Godwin's law.
4
Historical analogies rarely travel well. But the similarity of words and considerations between Hitler's demand for first the autonomy of the German-speaking regions of Czechoslovakia and then later for the full cessation of the German-speaking regions to Germany is indeed very similar to what is occurring in the Ukraine today.
French prime minister Edouard Daladier correctly told prime minister Chamberlain before the crisis that Germany aimed to dismember Czechoslovakia completely and then turn on the other countries of East Europe. Something very similar seems to be going on in Vladimir Putin's mind; he wants to fatally weaken the Ukraine and then possibly pressure the Baltic Republics and other East European countries into some sort of vassalage.
So what I would say is the historical irony here is just how strong the parallels with Czechoslovakia in 1938 truly are. It isn't fiction.
French prime minister Edouard Daladier correctly told prime minister Chamberlain before the crisis that Germany aimed to dismember Czechoslovakia completely and then turn on the other countries of East Europe. Something very similar seems to be going on in Vladimir Putin's mind; he wants to fatally weaken the Ukraine and then possibly pressure the Baltic Republics and other East European countries into some sort of vassalage.
So what I would say is the historical irony here is just how strong the parallels with Czechoslovakia in 1938 truly are. It isn't fiction.
1
Mr. Putin has a very clear goal. In December 2016, it will be the the 25th annivesary of the Fall of the Soviet Union, in 2017 the 100th anniversay
of the October revolution and at the same time Mr. Putin's last year as President of the Russian Republic. And Mr. Putin wants a very Big Victory parade. He wants that to be the beginning of his new Presidential campaign to show and tell the World that the Soviet Union is again united.
We need to do two things, first, break his back economically so that his parade will have to be cancelled and second give China the choice, Europe
and the USA as economic partners or Russia. Let the Chinese Central Bank run the Russian economy..that should be our goal.
of the October revolution and at the same time Mr. Putin's last year as President of the Russian Republic. And Mr. Putin wants a very Big Victory parade. He wants that to be the beginning of his new Presidential campaign to show and tell the World that the Soviet Union is again united.
We need to do two things, first, break his back economically so that his parade will have to be cancelled and second give China the choice, Europe
and the USA as economic partners or Russia. Let the Chinese Central Bank run the Russian economy..that should be our goal.
4
We should stop creating illusions about a possibility of a diplomatic solution to the Ukrainian problem. There is a big difference in the meaning of “diplomatic solution” between Russia and us. For Putin it means achieving his goals without a need for military action. For us it is a compromise. His goals are clear, he has been spelling them for about two decades. We obviously have not listened and kept reinterpreting his words in a peaceful way. When are we finally going to hear what he is actually saying instead of pretending that he said something else? The truth is that he want to restore the Soviet Union in a form of Asian European Union which eventually will swallow EU. Ukraine was a critical part of this design and he is committed to preventing its transformation and its tilt towards EU. He wants to reverse all what happened in Ukraine and bring this country back on the Kremlin leash. If we and Ukrainians agree to all of this, it is going to be the diplomatic solution in Putin’s interpretation. Otherwise, we have to stop fooling ourselves and send good lethal weapons to Ukraine, a lot of weapons.
5
Is Putin wrong? Yes
Can the USA or NATO do anything about it? No
We do not have a military in North America or all of Europe geared for taking on a 1st World industrial military machine like Russia. Bush squandered our Cold War stockpiles of munitions on "Angry Goat Herders" and Obama decided that Drones for blowing up Pakistani kids were more important than new jets and tanks.
Entering into hostilities with Russia(especially on their own turf) is suicide and sending weapons to Ukraine will be seen as an act of aggression.
The US meddling in Syria(a Russian Ally) was the beginning of this tension(thanks Hillary) and they are calling our bluff in Ukraine and Mr Obama has carefully crafted a military leadership and policy that is 100% geared for "Low Intensity Conflict" against indigenous personnel not a major conventional military power like Russia.
This battle is already lost, you can start mourning for a free and democratic Ukraine right now because it's already over.
Can the USA or NATO do anything about it? No
We do not have a military in North America or all of Europe geared for taking on a 1st World industrial military machine like Russia. Bush squandered our Cold War stockpiles of munitions on "Angry Goat Herders" and Obama decided that Drones for blowing up Pakistani kids were more important than new jets and tanks.
Entering into hostilities with Russia(especially on their own turf) is suicide and sending weapons to Ukraine will be seen as an act of aggression.
The US meddling in Syria(a Russian Ally) was the beginning of this tension(thanks Hillary) and they are calling our bluff in Ukraine and Mr Obama has carefully crafted a military leadership and policy that is 100% geared for "Low Intensity Conflict" against indigenous personnel not a major conventional military power like Russia.
This battle is already lost, you can start mourning for a free and democratic Ukraine right now because it's already over.
1
Michael:
How soon do we put on mourning again for free and democratic Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia ... ?
If not now, when?
How soon do we put on mourning again for free and democratic Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia ... ?
If not now, when?
Negotiations from a position of weakness will always fail with someone like Putin. He will just view it as an invitation to further aggression. The U.S. and the West must be realistic and take a stand now, recognizing that such a confrontation is inevitable -- it is only a question of whether it occurs sooner or later. Critics say that if we supply Ukraine with the arms it needs to survive, Putin will just double down and we'll be back to where we started, or that we will somehow get into a war with Russia. These are valid concerns, but both are oversimplifications. There are limits to what Putin can and will do. Putin wants war no more than we do, because it would threaten his own destruction. Moreover, the Russian people will not be forever blind to the carnage that Putin's policies are wreaking on the Russian economy, and to the increasing isolation of Russia itself. There will come a time when Putin will have to make a rational calculation of his own interests, and stop blindly lashing out, as he has up until now. This will be a long-term struggle, but eventually, if Ukraine is given the ability to resist, Putin will fail. The West is not being asked to fight, just to give Ukraine the tools to fight. Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, the people of Ukraine actually want to be part of the West and are asking for our help. If we forsake them, we are giving up on everything we stand for,
3
There is no way that the U.S. should either ship arms to Ukraine or get involved militarily in this conflict. This is Ukraine's civil war, and Russia is involved heavily, and it's on their western border, and there is no way for us and Russia to fight without it turning nuclear. And of course if it goes nuclear, that's it for civilization in the northern hemisphere at minimum, with a possibility of being the end for humanity as a whole. All of Ukraine is not worth that chance.
However, peace in Ukraine should be the goal here, and it has to be accomplished through negotiating with Russia. And Russia must therefore be sanctioned, far more heavily than it has been, and constantly hampered in their efforts without actual military confrontation. When Russia really feels the pain, Putin will finally negotiate, and I think it's clear that what he wants is Finlandized Ukrainian states on his border, with west Ukraine doing whatever it wants.
And breaking up Ukraine is the way to go, these people clearly can't live together, it's like Yugoslavia, Iraq, Yemen, lots of violent nations. Best way to handle it is break up the tribes, relocate everyone, and thus have all the new nations small and powerless. Note all the Yugoslavian sections have been zero trouble since they were partitioned. It's what has to get done in Iraq, Syria, and Yemen too, and it'd be best for Ukraine.
Lastly, if Russia does want to absorb all Ukraine, that's fine too. Just so long as the killing stops.
However, peace in Ukraine should be the goal here, and it has to be accomplished through negotiating with Russia. And Russia must therefore be sanctioned, far more heavily than it has been, and constantly hampered in their efforts without actual military confrontation. When Russia really feels the pain, Putin will finally negotiate, and I think it's clear that what he wants is Finlandized Ukrainian states on his border, with west Ukraine doing whatever it wants.
And breaking up Ukraine is the way to go, these people clearly can't live together, it's like Yugoslavia, Iraq, Yemen, lots of violent nations. Best way to handle it is break up the tribes, relocate everyone, and thus have all the new nations small and powerless. Note all the Yugoslavian sections have been zero trouble since they were partitioned. It's what has to get done in Iraq, Syria, and Yemen too, and it'd be best for Ukraine.
Lastly, if Russia does want to absorb all Ukraine, that's fine too. Just so long as the killing stops.
Arming the Ukrainian military would be a huge mistake. Since this "war" began, thousands of military-age Ukrainian men have poured into Russia, not because they approve of Putin but because they fear being drafted and then slaughtered by Russian-equipped rebels. The problem is so bad that the Ukrainian government is now enlisting men up to age 60 to fight. For Obama to consider providing arms to such a dysfunctional military is akin to arming the rebels, as they'll ultimately obtain and use the weapons against the Ukraine and then blame the West for the ensuing chaos. Moreover, Putin would ultimately feel emboldened. Since Russia really doesn't view NATO as a serious military threat, but rather a symbol of Western imperialism, what's needed are new and sweeping economic sanctions that require Putin to seek out foreign aid to maintain his economy (and temporal popularity). He'd most likely reach out to China, which would then be confronted with the tough choice of tacitly supporting Putin's war for Ukraine.
First it was the "domino theory" of the '60s to justify the war on Vietnam that killed over 500,000 civilians.
Next it was the funding and training of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan in the '80s to push out the Soviet Union and contain Communism. We all know where that went.
Follow with the "weapons of mass destruction" to justify the war on Iraq in 2003 that killed over 100,000 civilians. Iraq is now broken and the ISIS is giving governments around the word sleepless nights.
Next, arm the Syrian rebels that appears to have killed over 100,000 people, a sizable part of which are civilian deaths.
Now the West is thinking of arming Ukraine to fight Russia.
Two things to remember - Russia might not have the military might of the Soviet Union but they are not going to roll over and fade away in their own backyard. This can become bloody. Second, a large percentage of the deaths will be civilians.
Russia does not have the military might or the economic strength of the US. The Cold War is over; the Soviet Union is gone and communism is no longer a threat. Why then does the West want to encircle Russia with NATO nations?
It appears that Western nations are constantly looking for enemies to wage wars; if none exist, they are just invented - like Mr.Bush's "weapons of mass destruction"
Next it was the funding and training of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan in the '80s to push out the Soviet Union and contain Communism. We all know where that went.
Follow with the "weapons of mass destruction" to justify the war on Iraq in 2003 that killed over 100,000 civilians. Iraq is now broken and the ISIS is giving governments around the word sleepless nights.
Next, arm the Syrian rebels that appears to have killed over 100,000 people, a sizable part of which are civilian deaths.
Now the West is thinking of arming Ukraine to fight Russia.
Two things to remember - Russia might not have the military might of the Soviet Union but they are not going to roll over and fade away in their own backyard. This can become bloody. Second, a large percentage of the deaths will be civilians.
Russia does not have the military might or the economic strength of the US. The Cold War is over; the Soviet Union is gone and communism is no longer a threat. Why then does the West want to encircle Russia with NATO nations?
It appears that Western nations are constantly looking for enemies to wage wars; if none exist, they are just invented - like Mr.Bush's "weapons of mass destruction"
8
Gopi:
You say that "Now the West is thinking of arming Ukraine to fight Russia."
Oh come on. The West is thinking of arming Ukrainians so that they can defend themselves against Putin's aggression.
You say that "Now the West is thinking of arming Ukraine to fight Russia."
Oh come on. The West is thinking of arming Ukrainians so that they can defend themselves against Putin's aggression.
One solution, anathema to the expansionists in Washington, is the Finlandization of Ukraine: a federal structure for that unhappy nation combined with a no-Nato pledge would solve many problems.
1
> But if the evidence continues to accumulate that Mr. Putin and the rebels are carving out a permanent rebel-held enclave in eastern Ukraine…
Please explain at what point the evidence will accumulate sufficiently that we admit the obvious?
Nothing Putin says has any meaning -- other than as a possible indication that the opposite is likely true. If he says X, I immediately examine Y. It’s been a reliable barometer for some time now.
Please explain at what point the evidence will accumulate sufficiently that we admit the obvious?
Nothing Putin says has any meaning -- other than as a possible indication that the opposite is likely true. If he says X, I immediately examine Y. It’s been a reliable barometer for some time now.
2
US corporations rely on tyrannical governments to keep wages low and working conditions poor. Take a close look at the labels of the garments you wear. I wager they come from countries run as right-wing dictatorships.
2
I see many comments by Russian apologists who forget very recent history and trot out the Russian storyline that "Western-backed Nazis took over the Ukraine in an illegal coup."
Yanukovych reneged on promises to develop closer economic ties with Europe and instead made a back-room deal with Putin despite vigorous majority public opposition to this. Protests erupted demanding changes to Yanukovych's policies and cronyism. Eventually the military fired on unarmed civilians killing ~80 people. Yanukovych fled when he realized his previous allies in government no longer supported him or more important, would not protect him.
Next, Russia annexed Crimea when Ukrainian government politicians and security forces deserted Yanukovych, with Russia all the while stating that there were no Russian military forces in Crimea. This was a lie. They then held a quick referendum (under a Russian armed presence) to join the Russian federation and secede from the Ukraine, in violation of the Ukrainian constitution.
Russia has been moving arms, men, logistical support, and anti-aircraft missiles (including the one that shot down a civilian airliner killing all on board) into the Eastern Ukraine. A civil war ensued and many people have been killed on both sides.
The debate on whether the West should supply arms to the Ukrainian government is very necessary - but let's get the facts straight about what led up to this situation.
Yanukovych reneged on promises to develop closer economic ties with Europe and instead made a back-room deal with Putin despite vigorous majority public opposition to this. Protests erupted demanding changes to Yanukovych's policies and cronyism. Eventually the military fired on unarmed civilians killing ~80 people. Yanukovych fled when he realized his previous allies in government no longer supported him or more important, would not protect him.
Next, Russia annexed Crimea when Ukrainian government politicians and security forces deserted Yanukovych, with Russia all the while stating that there were no Russian military forces in Crimea. This was a lie. They then held a quick referendum (under a Russian armed presence) to join the Russian federation and secede from the Ukraine, in violation of the Ukrainian constitution.
Russia has been moving arms, men, logistical support, and anti-aircraft missiles (including the one that shot down a civilian airliner killing all on board) into the Eastern Ukraine. A civil war ensued and many people have been killed on both sides.
The debate on whether the West should supply arms to the Ukrainian government is very necessary - but let's get the facts straight about what led up to this situation.
5
I don't know how you can reason with a despot. Putin seems to be making it up as he goes along, and so far is succeeding. He's clever, in a football kind of way, off setting a trap that invites western aid that would corroborate his anti-western ideology and keep his suffering Russians on his side.
I think the west--primarily US (and I mean us) and NATO--is caught between a rock and a hard place on this one. Putin is wily, clever, and will settle for short term gains on a path to a longer range vision. If the only way to break the backs of his supporters and make them so mad they throw him out is more sanctions, fine.
But I wouldn't bet the farm on his pledge of creating a "federation" region in Ukraine. Putin may act and sound insane at time--crazy like a fox--but I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him on anything he says. The best way to hurt him is to foment change from within his corrupt oligarchy and get average Russians so angry about losing their lifestyles post-Communism that they revolt from within.
I think the west--primarily US (and I mean us) and NATO--is caught between a rock and a hard place on this one. Putin is wily, clever, and will settle for short term gains on a path to a longer range vision. If the only way to break the backs of his supporters and make them so mad they throw him out is more sanctions, fine.
But I wouldn't bet the farm on his pledge of creating a "federation" region in Ukraine. Putin may act and sound insane at time--crazy like a fox--but I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him on anything he says. The best way to hurt him is to foment change from within his corrupt oligarchy and get average Russians so angry about losing their lifestyles post-Communism that they revolt from within.
2
Until recently, what Ukraine needed was a means of taking out artillery in urban environments without excessive civilian causalities. Providing that would practically have qualified as humanitarian aid.
But at this point we’re witnessing a full bore invasion of cities and towns that chose NOT to align with the so-called separatists. Russia is invading Ukraine and seizing as much territory as possible.
I’m torn. I want to send military aid, but I imagine the result would be a barren wasteland in what used to be called "Eastern Ukraine."
But at this point we’re witnessing a full bore invasion of cities and towns that chose NOT to align with the so-called separatists. Russia is invading Ukraine and seizing as much territory as possible.
I’m torn. I want to send military aid, but I imagine the result would be a barren wasteland in what used to be called "Eastern Ukraine."
1
It would be nice if the West did something to help Ukraine (rather than just hurt Russia). However, no one there is counting on any assistance from the West. They understood their unimportance when Yanukovych ordered snipers to open fire on peaceful protesters and received only "very stern admonishments." This is why they are, bravely but tragically, crowd-funding tanks.
Ukraine cannot win against Russia without Western aid, but they will continue fighting the rebels (and being shelled by them) for years, until every Ukrainian is dead. The West should consider whether this blood will be on their hands - and, if this appeal to human decency doesn't work, whether they really think that Putin will stop with Ukraine. Hitler didn't stop with Poland.
Ukraine cannot win against Russia without Western aid, but they will continue fighting the rebels (and being shelled by them) for years, until every Ukrainian is dead. The West should consider whether this blood will be on their hands - and, if this appeal to human decency doesn't work, whether they really think that Putin will stop with Ukraine. Hitler didn't stop with Poland.
1
This is the dirty little wars we must be willing to fight to balance against the influence of monsters. These monsters come in many forms. Free trade, democracy and all that is light and good must be protected or we invite the monsters in our living rooms.
When considering all the ways in which President Obama has not acted forcefully around the world, the notion that he is going to arm the Ukrainians with anything particularly useful against a major military power like Russia is simply unrealistic. Never mind that such action would go completely against the grain of the man.
Since fellow Europeans are also unwilling to help the Ukrainians with significant military support, the far superior machinations of Vladimir Putin are destined to determine future facts on Ukrainian ground.
Since fellow Europeans are also unwilling to help the Ukrainians with significant military support, the far superior machinations of Vladimir Putin are destined to determine future facts on Ukrainian ground.
The mentioning of Transdniestria, Abkhazia or South Ossetia made me doubt whether the author understands what is at stake in those regions.
Abkhazia or South Ossetia were protected by Russian troops when nationalistic militias roamed Georgia in the early 1990s and drove out many minorities. If Georgia had played nice, made excuses and allowed people to return it might now have received control over those regions back. Instead Georgia insisted on being aggressive, organizing guerrilla attacks in Abkhazia, making life difficult with road blocks in South Ossetia. The final disgrace was their attack on the Russian peacekeepers in 2008.
Transdniester is the part of Moldova that was part of the Soviet Union before 1939 - while the rest of Moldova was part of Romania. Just as the adjacent Odessa region it is mostly inhabited by Russian speakers. Moldova could have made some deal to give these people a special status but it hasn't done so.
Unfortunately in both countries the US has played a rather unfortunate role - encouraging their governments to confrontational policies.
Abkhazia or South Ossetia were protected by Russian troops when nationalistic militias roamed Georgia in the early 1990s and drove out many minorities. If Georgia had played nice, made excuses and allowed people to return it might now have received control over those regions back. Instead Georgia insisted on being aggressive, organizing guerrilla attacks in Abkhazia, making life difficult with road blocks in South Ossetia. The final disgrace was their attack on the Russian peacekeepers in 2008.
Transdniester is the part of Moldova that was part of the Soviet Union before 1939 - while the rest of Moldova was part of Romania. Just as the adjacent Odessa region it is mostly inhabited by Russian speakers. Moldova could have made some deal to give these people a special status but it hasn't done so.
Unfortunately in both countries the US has played a rather unfortunate role - encouraging their governments to confrontational policies.
4
Show the proof that Russia is arming the rebels. Then supply Kiev means to defend themselves.
1
So, the best we can do here is, according to this article "increase the cost". The intellectual level of a 10 year old boy! Every intelligent problem solving technique teaches you that in order to solve a problem you need to have a good, honest definition of the problem. Does Washington think that Kiev's problem is in the lack of weapons? Of course not! Or if the"thinkers" in DC think that all will change with supplying Kiev with weapons that their few remaining solders will not even know how to use, then just go ahead and do it. These weapons will end up in the hands of pro-Nazi Azov extremists and from them who knows where...In any case, if US starts supplying weapons to Kiev it will just have one and only one effect: it will accelerate Kiev's defeat as the rebels will get even more motivated to finish the fight with, now openly, western proxies in Kiev. Unless US is willing to win this battle at all cost, it will certainly lose it, as Russians are determined to win at all cost.
1
Imagine for a moment, a single ego driven man, who combines the financial power of the Koch Brothers, the media power of Rupert Murdock, the control of a military/industrial complex of Dick Chaney - and give him personal control of the NSA and CIA.
Then let him have personal control of 10,000+ thermo-nuclear warheads. Then surround him with yes-men and women, whose entire financial well-being depends on their keeping him happy.
Putin is the most dangerous man in the world.
Then let him have personal control of 10,000+ thermo-nuclear warheads. Then surround him with yes-men and women, whose entire financial well-being depends on their keeping him happy.
Putin is the most dangerous man in the world.
10
I often wonder if comments are collected and analyzed by certain government agencies, in order to gain insight into whether one policy or another will fly.
At the very least it certainly empowers those who control the narrative.
The psychological wherewithal to manipulate perception has been refined to a degree of subtlety that is extraordinary.
Any clear thinking human knows full well that the chaos in the Middle East, Europe, and elsewhere, is, for the most part, engineered, to create the conditions for a "benevolent" power to take control, or as many believe, subjugate.
The worldwide inequality is another piece on the board, and serves to keep the masses busy trying to survive, so little time can be spent deliberating on who is to blame. The revolutions of old will likely never be a problem again for our masters.
Greece is a minor thorn in the side of this world Plutocracy, and will be mollified in some relatively minor way.
There is an own it all philosophy at work now; it's success is unprecedented.
At the very least it certainly empowers those who control the narrative.
The psychological wherewithal to manipulate perception has been refined to a degree of subtlety that is extraordinary.
Any clear thinking human knows full well that the chaos in the Middle East, Europe, and elsewhere, is, for the most part, engineered, to create the conditions for a "benevolent" power to take control, or as many believe, subjugate.
The worldwide inequality is another piece on the board, and serves to keep the masses busy trying to survive, so little time can be spent deliberating on who is to blame. The revolutions of old will likely never be a problem again for our masters.
Greece is a minor thorn in the side of this world Plutocracy, and will be mollified in some relatively minor way.
There is an own it all philosophy at work now; it's success is unprecedented.
1
We have proven beyond any doubt that we do not have the military capacity to intervene successfully in any of these entanglements. Yet we prattle on and on about Ukraine, the Middle East, China, etc. as if we had actually been successful in the past fifteen years. Surely we are the laughing stock of the world.
3
Of course, they are much too polite to ask, but I bet the Swedes would like their Peace Prize back.
2
You write that Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky are Putin puppets on a string. There are examples, which you ignore, that demonstrates that both men are not on leading strings. But since you ignore their publications, and speeches you that false conclusion.
You talk about an MLRS attack on Mariupol , but never write about children killed on playgrounds by Ukrainian artillery or how Ukraine deliberate shells schools and hospitals etc.
When this conflict first started back with Nuland cookies, the DPR did not exist. Leaders asked for Federalization. They were ignored. No one talked to them and very little formal military opposition. In fact Kiev army forces often joined them, surrendering their equipment. DNI forces continued to capture military hardware as Kiev units deserted leaving everything behind. Kiev soldiers fled over the border to Russia seeking asylum.
Then Kiev launched harsh military actions against them using punisher battalions and troops from W. Ukraine. Now it was a full blown civil war. The demand was no longer federalism, but independence. They have said they don't want to join Russia, but they don't want to be under the control of the EU via Kiev.
A peaceful solution will grant independence and stop the fighting. The US should make Kiev see reason in this matter and not continue to try to conquer and slaughter their own citizens. Kiev will win no hearts and minds with that approach. Does the US understand both sides in this conflict? I don't think so.
You talk about an MLRS attack on Mariupol , but never write about children killed on playgrounds by Ukrainian artillery or how Ukraine deliberate shells schools and hospitals etc.
When this conflict first started back with Nuland cookies, the DPR did not exist. Leaders asked for Federalization. They were ignored. No one talked to them and very little formal military opposition. In fact Kiev army forces often joined them, surrendering their equipment. DNI forces continued to capture military hardware as Kiev units deserted leaving everything behind. Kiev soldiers fled over the border to Russia seeking asylum.
Then Kiev launched harsh military actions against them using punisher battalions and troops from W. Ukraine. Now it was a full blown civil war. The demand was no longer federalism, but independence. They have said they don't want to join Russia, but they don't want to be under the control of the EU via Kiev.
A peaceful solution will grant independence and stop the fighting. The US should make Kiev see reason in this matter and not continue to try to conquer and slaughter their own citizens. Kiev will win no hearts and minds with that approach. Does the US understand both sides in this conflict? I don't think so.
5
Are you mad saying that that is Russia who strives for the world dominance???? It seems to me that the USA are to blame for majority of wars in the 20th century. But that's not the point. What I'm trying to say is that both regimes (Russian and American) have launched a war on a neutral territory. Every war is big money, and politicians know that very well. And they will take everything from the situation to make that lots of money.
1
The focus of the rebel offesive is not Mariupol, as claimed. Rather it has been on Donetsk Airport and Peski (from which civilian areas of Donetsk city have been heavily shelled) and on the Debaltsevo salient (from which Gorlovka has been heavily shelled). These massive artillery attacks on civilian areas by the Ukranian government were taking place for weeks before the rebel offensive, with barely a mention in NYT.
3
Got it. The cost will increase for Russia. Let me know when we send in our troops. I think the cost to us in Vietnam was ~60,000 dead. Not to worry, our military will get it right this time.
4
Besides superpower prestige, what else is being played in Ukraine that affects US national security interests? Ukraine proves once more that cold war intervention reflexes are still alive and well in Washington DC.
Like other 'doable' wars lately, there is not a single solid argument to justify America's military engagement against Russia over Ukraine. The European Union, Russia and Ukraine should sit down and negotiate a political solution for the conflict without US presence. Any foreign crisis Washington gets involved ends up in military conflict.
Like other 'doable' wars lately, there is not a single solid argument to justify America's military engagement against Russia over Ukraine. The European Union, Russia and Ukraine should sit down and negotiate a political solution for the conflict without US presence. Any foreign crisis Washington gets involved ends up in military conflict.
5
Two creatures it is unwise to back into a corner, the wolverine and the bear.
The inconsistent terms that the Times uses in this editorial to describe the Kremlin-sponsored militants who are waging a brutal war in Eastern Ukraine say it all: are they "rebels" or "separatists"? In point of fact, Donbas-born Ukrainians form only a part of an unholy admixture of criminals and thugs, conscripted Russian soldiers, Russian intelligence officers, Chechen mercenaries, and Russian volunteers fighting to establish a fundamentalist Orthodox state in Ukraine that exists only in their own minds.
The West must aid the Ukrainian army now, with lethal weaponry and intelligence, to defeat this vile band of killers.
The West must aid the Ukrainian army now, with lethal weaponry and intelligence, to defeat this vile band of killers.
3
Putin resumes war? So, what was it before, a military training on occupied territory?
3
Sending US-arms to the Ukraine would be a serious mistake in my opinion. After all, the Ukraine is the backyard of Europe. So let the Europeans decide whether it is wise to give arms to the Kiew government or not. In addition, one should not forget that Kiew is very belligerent itself and Poroshenko is quoted as being prepared for "total war". The best approach to the Ukraine crisis is political pressure for a federalization of the Ukraine. And it should actually not matter whether the West-Ukraine and the East-Ukraine would turn out to be smaller or larger in a federalized Ukraine. Let them do business with each other and they will be able do live in peace.
20
Western Europe has to decide if it is OK with Putin's actions,or do something about.Not our problem.
1
Don't forget that the Soviet Union collapsed because it was overextended. If a province cannot be governed by its consent, it will consume more resources than it produces.
So many Russian bots in comments...
Russia puts a lot of money in large teams of commentators commenting news in major international media in a way which favors Russia.
Ugly face of KGB. Read The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, and then you will understand.
If the West thinks that this monster will be defeated without your participation - then you are wrong.
Ukraine will not be able to defeat this deamon alone.
We need support of the whole democratic world.
Russia puts a lot of money in large teams of commentators commenting news in major international media in a way which favors Russia.
Ugly face of KGB. Read The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, and then you will understand.
If the West thinks that this monster will be defeated without your participation - then you are wrong.
Ukraine will not be able to defeat this deamon alone.
We need support of the whole democratic world.
19
Dear Max,
Most of us saying that we shouldn't get involved in Ukraine are not Russian bots in the slightest. Like me, I'm an American, never been to Russia, never seen a ruble (literally). The thing is, I don't want a nuclear war to get triggered over ownership of an ex-Soviet state. And also, I don't particularly care about Ukraine, I figure they can handle things themselves, and they knew what they were getting into when they woke up the Bear. And I think most of us counseling not to get involved feel likewise; the risk is just not worth it, and there is no possibility of reward.
Most of us saying that we shouldn't get involved in Ukraine are not Russian bots in the slightest. Like me, I'm an American, never been to Russia, never seen a ruble (literally). The thing is, I don't want a nuclear war to get triggered over ownership of an ex-Soviet state. And also, I don't particularly care about Ukraine, I figure they can handle things themselves, and they knew what they were getting into when they woke up the Bear. And I think most of us counseling not to get involved feel likewise; the risk is just not worth it, and there is no possibility of reward.
5
"If the evidence continues to mount?" How much more "evidence" is needed in the face of 24/7 lying and bullying. Putin has already grabbed an important slice of another country.
The US and other NATO countries need to stop waffling and to take bold action to exact the highest possible price for continuing naked Russian aggression. President Putin has already declared publicly that he's fighting NATO, not Ukraine, while at the same time denying any Russian military involvement at all. Putin needs something substantive to complain about.
More to the point, Ukraine needs all the help it can get to blunt the rapacious assault of its vastly larger, aggressive neighbor. Ukraine needs help now, and time's running out.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
The US and other NATO countries need to stop waffling and to take bold action to exact the highest possible price for continuing naked Russian aggression. President Putin has already declared publicly that he's fighting NATO, not Ukraine, while at the same time denying any Russian military involvement at all. Putin needs something substantive to complain about.
More to the point, Ukraine needs all the help it can get to blunt the rapacious assault of its vastly larger, aggressive neighbor. Ukraine needs help now, and time's running out.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
4
The instinct to try to calibrate the support the West offer Ukraine seems oddly reminiscent of the arguments Neville Chamberlain may have proffered to the British people after meeting with Hitler. "Let's just appease him in this modest way, and maybe Putin will decide that he's made enough mischief in Ukraine."
Evidence that this is a reasonable position is refuted by the serial instances of Mr.Putin lying about Russian support for the rebels. The example of Georgia seems oddly missing form The Times editorial board; I am curious. Why would Ukraine turn out differently than the conflicts in Georgia, or Azerbaijan? The playbook has been establish; send in the "little green men" and destabilize the country. Then foment an insurrection based on Russian-speaking peoples rights being infringed in some way. Then send in the regular troops to establish order and safeguard the population. Surely you don't suggest we let them run this play again; so close the the EU proper?
Evidence that this is a reasonable position is refuted by the serial instances of Mr.Putin lying about Russian support for the rebels. The example of Georgia seems oddly missing form The Times editorial board; I am curious. Why would Ukraine turn out differently than the conflicts in Georgia, or Azerbaijan? The playbook has been establish; send in the "little green men" and destabilize the country. Then foment an insurrection based on Russian-speaking peoples rights being infringed in some way. Then send in the regular troops to establish order and safeguard the population. Surely you don't suggest we let them run this play again; so close the the EU proper?
2
I have many questions & no answers.
In the last sentence of this article, "...... the United States & Europe will be compelled to increase the cost."
Compelled ?
Like the phrase, "One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter", history shows us that "protectorship" of geographic areas are subject to decisions made with the very fluid "American interests" or "Russian interests" or "British interests" or "French interests", etc.
In the last sentence of this article, "...... the United States & Europe will be compelled to increase the cost."
Compelled ?
Like the phrase, "One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter", history shows us that "protectorship" of geographic areas are subject to decisions made with the very fluid "American interests" or "Russian interests" or "British interests" or "French interests", etc.
2
If the U.N. is to do nothing to preserve the territorial integrity of the Ukraine the UN ought to make clear how much of the Ukraine the Ruskies can have. Redraw the boundaries. Cease with the slaughter of the innocence. Put the 100,000 "warriors" back to work. Putin's gonna get it anyway. Call the give-a-way a peace conference. Turn on the water, the gas, and the electricity.
1
This ill-conceived american adventure in Ukraine may well be seen in Russia as an ”existential threat” and, if so, any increase in pressure shall provoke the rise in the resistance proportionally. Russian surrender is as likely today as it was in 1812 (a lesson President Obama could learn from Napoleon). As our clandestine war with Russia continues and the stakes are raised, President Putin may choose the “strike Berlin first” strategy (God forbid) and then the question is just how many coastal american cities are we willing to sacrifice in order to keep “China British”?
4
>the way it grabbed Crimea
We did not grab Crimea. We only brokered power transition from Ukraine to Russia :)
We did not grab Crimea. We only brokered power transition from Ukraine to Russia :)
1
Dear NYT editors:
So you're saying we should stand aside while Putin pursues his strategy of aggression and intimidation in Ukraine? After that, what? Lithuania? Why does this make me think of the British and French behavior vis-a-vis Nazi Germany over the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia? Where did backing down get them? We know the answer to that. The issue is not punishing Putin. The issue is standing up to a bully and supporting a defenseless ally.
So you're saying we should stand aside while Putin pursues his strategy of aggression and intimidation in Ukraine? After that, what? Lithuania? Why does this make me think of the British and French behavior vis-a-vis Nazi Germany over the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia? Where did backing down get them? We know the answer to that. The issue is not punishing Putin. The issue is standing up to a bully and supporting a defenseless ally.
2
“Why does this make me think of the British and French behavior vis-a-vis Nazi Germany over the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia?”
Interesting point. The Nazis invaded the Sudetenland (then part of Czechoslovakia) on the pretext of alleviating the suffering of their fellow Germans who lived there – much like the argument that Putin is now using with respect to the Russian speaking Ukrainians. There was no appetite in the UK, France or the US to go to war with Germans trying to unite themselves.
As history showed, things got ugly but, today, all the Germans who lived in Czechoslovakia now live in Germany. I wonder where those Ukrainians now supportive of Mr. Putin will end up.
Interesting point. The Nazis invaded the Sudetenland (then part of Czechoslovakia) on the pretext of alleviating the suffering of their fellow Germans who lived there – much like the argument that Putin is now using with respect to the Russian speaking Ukrainians. There was no appetite in the UK, France or the US to go to war with Germans trying to unite themselves.
As history showed, things got ugly but, today, all the Germans who lived in Czechoslovakia now live in Germany. I wonder where those Ukrainians now supportive of Mr. Putin will end up.
Let's just keep a few salient points in mind:
1. Russia is trying to dictate Ukraine's future by military invasion - leading to thousands of deaths, destruction of billions of dollars worth of infrastructure and even annexation - in Europe in the 21st century!
2. The appeasement crowd thought Putin would stop at Crimea. He didn't.
3. Putin has made the following threats: "Russia ill Not Allow Other Countries To Gain 'Military Superiority' Over Russia;" "I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers;" and that NATO "threatens its (russia's) very existence."
Whoa... let's look at that last one again - how, precisely, does NATO threaten russia? What do russians fear from NATO? NATO doesn't - and cannot, due to its very nature - annex any nation. NATO cannot start any wars. What do Putin and his russian supporters fear?
No one has been able to answer that last bit. Mostly because it's bordering on insanity - creating monsters where none exist to justify invasion and mass murder and annexation.
Hmmm. Sound a lot like Hitler, no?
Oh, and Putin just lowered the price of vodka again.
1. Russia is trying to dictate Ukraine's future by military invasion - leading to thousands of deaths, destruction of billions of dollars worth of infrastructure and even annexation - in Europe in the 21st century!
2. The appeasement crowd thought Putin would stop at Crimea. He didn't.
3. Putin has made the following threats: "Russia ill Not Allow Other Countries To Gain 'Military Superiority' Over Russia;" "I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers;" and that NATO "threatens its (russia's) very existence."
Whoa... let's look at that last one again - how, precisely, does NATO threaten russia? What do russians fear from NATO? NATO doesn't - and cannot, due to its very nature - annex any nation. NATO cannot start any wars. What do Putin and his russian supporters fear?
No one has been able to answer that last bit. Mostly because it's bordering on insanity - creating monsters where none exist to justify invasion and mass murder and annexation.
Hmmm. Sound a lot like Hitler, no?
Oh, and Putin just lowered the price of vodka again.
6
While my letters to the NYT on other issues get printed, it worries me that my letters on this issue rarely do.
Let's start with the headline 'Mr. Putin resumes his war in Ukraine'. This sounds as if the entire problem is a Russian created one with the US playing no role in this at all. This reality denial is mirrored in the earlier Soro's article printed here, which if read by anyone from Europe would be dismissed as pure propaganda of the most crude sort.
One only has to read the comments on the increasingly center right (ex leftie) UK Guardian where although the editorial line is the same as the US one; the comments by readers despite being very right wing on other issues , such as Muslims, immigration and 'fighting terror' is firmly in the 'stop lying to us about Ukraine' column.
It mirrors the change in tone of comments on the Israel/Palestinian one here at the NYT. The majority of readers here now reject the pro Israeli line; as the Obama/Netanayu feud has given space for various view points (as on the Cuban issue). This is healthy and part of what makes democracy democracy rather than half truths used to form public opinion rather than inform or reflect it
So in Europe the clampdown by the Elite on 'unwanted opinions' has worked to stop meaningful criticism of Islamophobia ('We are Charlie' by the 'don't let Muslims preach hate' free speech hypocrits) while in the US the 'compact press refuse to allow any view other than that the Ukraine is 'Putins War'.
Let's start with the headline 'Mr. Putin resumes his war in Ukraine'. This sounds as if the entire problem is a Russian created one with the US playing no role in this at all. This reality denial is mirrored in the earlier Soro's article printed here, which if read by anyone from Europe would be dismissed as pure propaganda of the most crude sort.
One only has to read the comments on the increasingly center right (ex leftie) UK Guardian where although the editorial line is the same as the US one; the comments by readers despite being very right wing on other issues , such as Muslims, immigration and 'fighting terror' is firmly in the 'stop lying to us about Ukraine' column.
It mirrors the change in tone of comments on the Israel/Palestinian one here at the NYT. The majority of readers here now reject the pro Israeli line; as the Obama/Netanayu feud has given space for various view points (as on the Cuban issue). This is healthy and part of what makes democracy democracy rather than half truths used to form public opinion rather than inform or reflect it
So in Europe the clampdown by the Elite on 'unwanted opinions' has worked to stop meaningful criticism of Islamophobia ('We are Charlie' by the 'don't let Muslims preach hate' free speech hypocrits) while in the US the 'compact press refuse to allow any view other than that the Ukraine is 'Putins War'.
10
The NYT and many others in the national security military industrial complex continue to be afflicted by PDS -- Putin Derangement Syndrome. It would be sad for those afflicted, if of course the PDS was not yet another ploy by the 'complex' and its supporters to continue to instill fear into Americans and keep the cash and influence rolling in.
Quick reminder. The duly elected government of Ukraine was overthrown by Western puppets. The elected president had to run for his life. Russia should be expected to take an interest in its neighbors, particularly when that neighbor has nuclear weapons.
And as usual in these 'complex' matters, in order to keep the cash and influence rolling in, the USA must cause innocent people to die and those remaining to be moved into refugee camps after having lost their homes and businesses.
How about something new? How about if the American people said 'enough', refused to be subject to fear and the PDS, and demanded that we stop the killling of innocent people? If we really care about the Ukrainian people, then let us work to give the people there what they want; two countries, independent. Let us spend money on helping their economies and not on killing and defeating PDS.
Quick reminder. The duly elected government of Ukraine was overthrown by Western puppets. The elected president had to run for his life. Russia should be expected to take an interest in its neighbors, particularly when that neighbor has nuclear weapons.
And as usual in these 'complex' matters, in order to keep the cash and influence rolling in, the USA must cause innocent people to die and those remaining to be moved into refugee camps after having lost their homes and businesses.
How about something new? How about if the American people said 'enough', refused to be subject to fear and the PDS, and demanded that we stop the killling of innocent people? If we really care about the Ukrainian people, then let us work to give the people there what they want; two countries, independent. Let us spend money on helping their economies and not on killing and defeating PDS.
4
To quote Tom's letter: "This is not the business of the United States." Russia proper must rebel against Putin's neglect, the result of his foreign adventurism.
1
The Times calls for negotiations based on Putin's demands for a confederated Ukraine and guarantees of Ukrainian neutrality. But this would in essence reward Putin for his aggression against a neighbouring state and would truncate Ukraine's own sovereignty.
Ukraine should not have to rearrange its internal structure to suit Russia. Nor should it have to promise not to join a defensive alliance at a time of its choosing, especially given Russia's track record of aggression against it.
Negotiations, if attempted, should aim to compel Russia to withdraw from eastern Ukraine in exchange for the lifting of some sanctions. Other sanctions should remain in effect until Russia relinquishes Crimea.
Ukraine should not have to rearrange its internal structure to suit Russia. Nor should it have to promise not to join a defensive alliance at a time of its choosing, especially given Russia's track record of aggression against it.
Negotiations, if attempted, should aim to compel Russia to withdraw from eastern Ukraine in exchange for the lifting of some sanctions. Other sanctions should remain in effect until Russia relinquishes Crimea.
4
I've been a specialist in Russian and Soviet affairs for the past thirty years. I have no sympathy for Vladimir Putin: he's undermined every attempt to produce a "normal," open and truly democratic Russian state. And his crony govt. is actively interested in expanding Russian power in all directions to the extent that it can. TThat being said, the NYT editorial page seems to be utterly incapable of addressing any legitimate grievance from the Russian population of the former USSR. I have yet to see any editorial that even considers the fact that many eastern Ukrainians might actually feel threatened by the current national govt; that these people might actually welcome a peacekeeping force from Russia. The bizarre fixation of the NYT on personalizing their editorials so that they become these psycho-portraits of Vladimir Putin points to some sort of breakdown in NYT editorial quality. We should tell Putin that Ukraine is not joining NATO with US support; tell Ukraine that it is not joining the EU until the minorities in the East are free to live in generally federal and highly autonomous zones. We reassure Putin that WWIII will never happen and we will work with him and his crony govt. to secure the legitimate rights of Russian speakers in the East of Ukraine. At the same time, we renew our efforts to treat Russia as a partner of NATO and to renew the Russo_NATO commitment to combating global terrorism. We are within a few bad moves of a planet destroying conflagration.
16
I think that the Times' editors need to do a psycho-portrait of themselves. I do not understand how time and time again they turn international disagreements into personal nationalistic agenda driven vendettas. They did the same thing with Afghanistan and Iraq and Venezuela when Chavez was alive.
1
The tragic civil war in the Ukraine, pitting the ethnic Russian east against the EU dreaming west might never have occurred had it not been for the undemocratic ousting of an elected President. Had the not-so-peaceful Maidan demonstrators and their not-so-subtle NATO supporters waited for the next round of elections, they might have preserved their fragile union and avoided the bloodshed we are now witnessing.
Western military aid to Kiev will not end the conflict, only prolong it. The divided country appears beyond restoration. Crimea will remain Russian and Eastern Ukraine will end up with greater autonomy in a Federation or even independence.
President Obama must avoid being drawn into another Civil War, the outcome of which will not have an impact on our national interest.
Western military aid to Kiev will not end the conflict, only prolong it. The divided country appears beyond restoration. Crimea will remain Russian and Eastern Ukraine will end up with greater autonomy in a Federation or even independence.
President Obama must avoid being drawn into another Civil War, the outcome of which will not have an impact on our national interest.
41
Marvin! You are confused. My family speaks Russian and lives in the east, but we are NOT Russian and have now come to hate the Russian invaders! Thus, this is not a war between the east and west within Urkaine.
This is NOT a Civil War, but and invasion by Russian on a county that is a democracy--unlike Russia.
This is NOT a Civil War, but and invasion by Russian on a county that is a democracy--unlike Russia.
2
The military industrial establishment perpetual war mongers and their propagandists want the US again to plunge deeper into a remote civil war. We understand how hubris and profit seeking mutually reinforce jingoism. We don't understand why the militarists always choose to back the losers. Well, I guess it does help draw things out and extend sales of lethal equipment. Too bad it's the American taxpayer whose money pays to back the bankrupt losers.
5
As long as Putin’s popularity in Russia continues to poll at stratospheric levels, his belligerence will continue. Only when the Russian people start really hurting, as they did towards the end of the Cold War, will Putin’s revanchist desires subside. We have seen this movie before, with the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s. That movie had a happy ending for the west but at a great cost to the Soviet Union – it fell apart.
However, Putin is well aware that NATO is not going to engage him militarily over Ukraine. So we have no choice but “to increase the cost” of his aggressive behavior. Also, given Russian history, the west needs to ensure it is ready to keep the pressure on Putin for years, not just months. As WWII’s nearly three-year siege of Leningrad, which cost almost a million lives, proved – the Russians are a very resilient people.
This is not an easy problem with a short-term solution, Putin is in it for the long haul and the west needs to be committed to what might very well turn into a mini-Cold War II? To be forewarned is to be forearmed.
However, Putin is well aware that NATO is not going to engage him militarily over Ukraine. So we have no choice but “to increase the cost” of his aggressive behavior. Also, given Russian history, the west needs to ensure it is ready to keep the pressure on Putin for years, not just months. As WWII’s nearly three-year siege of Leningrad, which cost almost a million lives, proved – the Russians are a very resilient people.
This is not an easy problem with a short-term solution, Putin is in it for the long haul and the west needs to be committed to what might very well turn into a mini-Cold War II? To be forewarned is to be forearmed.
1
"But lethal assistance could open a dangerous new chapter in the struggle — a chapter Mr. Putin would quite possibly welcome, as it would “confirm” his propaganda claims of Western aggression." This NYT editorial quote is the key to military intervention with arms support . . . it opens a door that is very difficult to close. It justifies Mr. Putin's actions, It is something to do ONLY AFTER all other options have been EXHAUSTED.
1
Another call to war? I am opposed to the endless meddling in the affairs of nations far away when our own country is in dire need of so much attention. These are centuries old wars that we keep injecting ourselves in to in countries to which we owe nothing. Always, we lose people and resources for nothing. Next thing we know the North/South of our own country will resume the Civil War. Our government is mad and I do not mean angry.
5
I am ceaselessly amazed, nay dumbfounded, by those posts that assert that the overthrow of Yanukovych was a coup engineered by the West. They then proceed to ask "How would America react if Russia engineered a coup in Canada threatening America on our border?" They appear oblivious to just how ridiculous Americans find the notion that Russia could engineer a pro-Russian coup in Canada. Only those living in a country that has never had democracy or a free press can believe that the US was able to remotely bring about a popular uprising against a corrupt government like that of Yanukovych.
6
You called it, brother.
Next we'll be hearing that Victoria Nuland was passing out gay cookies to convert the people of Kiev to homosexuality. ("Not that there would be anything wrong with that".)
Next we'll be hearing that Victoria Nuland was passing out gay cookies to convert the people of Kiev to homosexuality. ("Not that there would be anything wrong with that".)
Putin's aggression insofar Ukraine is concerned seems divorced from the dire economic condition he places on the Russian folk. It is as if he is on a personal mission to submit a nation unwilling to be subjugated. As such, the "West" ought to reach the Russian people to uncover the bully responsible for their predicament. What a waste of resources in favor of war, and denied against all the evidence. Consider the reverse, a rational Russia, helping to build world peace while educating its diverse population to reach its potential. Possible only if grandiose stupidity is set aside. Putin's rising kleptocracy may contribute to this status quo, but its eventual fall may occur when the long-suffering russians are pushed too far...and the truth uncovered.
Sometimes the NY Times editorial staff's penchant for middle ground just doesn't apply.
"carving out a permanent rebel-held enclave in eastern Ukraine" is not the greatest of Putin's ambitions in Ukraine, it's the least of them. The only objective that fits the facts on the ground is regime change in Kiev, a return of the Ukraine to its satellite status of most of the past 200 years. Putin is empire building, plain and simple.
By continuing to characterize the Ukraine conflict as a separatist movement the NY Times is denying the reality of the struggle of Ukrainians to join the community of free, just, and democratic nations. Opposing this goal are not "Russian backed separatists", but separatist backed Russian invaders.
So yes, we are entering a "dangerous new chapter in the struggle" but it is not of the West's making. The question is whether we are going to support the Ukrainian's right to self-determination and territorial integrity or whether we will allow these people to slip back under the dark cloud of imperialism.
This is not Iraq or Afghanistan in the 2000s, it's Kuwait in 1991. The difference is that we need not put American troops in harm's way. Ukrainians are able and willing to fight to defend their country, if we give them the advanced defensive weapons they need.
Let's not dither while brave, good men and women die. Our support now can persuade Putin that Ukraine will not be a victim of his imperialist ambitions.
"carving out a permanent rebel-held enclave in eastern Ukraine" is not the greatest of Putin's ambitions in Ukraine, it's the least of them. The only objective that fits the facts on the ground is regime change in Kiev, a return of the Ukraine to its satellite status of most of the past 200 years. Putin is empire building, plain and simple.
By continuing to characterize the Ukraine conflict as a separatist movement the NY Times is denying the reality of the struggle of Ukrainians to join the community of free, just, and democratic nations. Opposing this goal are not "Russian backed separatists", but separatist backed Russian invaders.
So yes, we are entering a "dangerous new chapter in the struggle" but it is not of the West's making. The question is whether we are going to support the Ukrainian's right to self-determination and territorial integrity or whether we will allow these people to slip back under the dark cloud of imperialism.
This is not Iraq or Afghanistan in the 2000s, it's Kuwait in 1991. The difference is that we need not put American troops in harm's way. Ukrainians are able and willing to fight to defend their country, if we give them the advanced defensive weapons they need.
Let's not dither while brave, good men and women die. Our support now can persuade Putin that Ukraine will not be a victim of his imperialist ambitions.
1
There are some wars that need to be fought. This is one the US needs to fight now. We will eventually face Russia on the battlefield. The sooner we do it, the less difficult it will be.
At this stage, it is obvious that we should provide the Ukraine with all the weapons that they can use, and we should be planning to intervene directly with our own military if it is needed.
At this stage, it is obvious that we should provide the Ukraine with all the weapons that they can use, and we should be planning to intervene directly with our own military if it is needed.
I'm shocked at all the Putin apologists among the commenters here. Whatever the faults of the Kiev government, they pale compared to Putin's aggression. (If his actions were even marginally justified, he wouldn't have to deny the obvious involvement of Russian troops and equipment.)
But of course Putin only wants to protect the Russians in eastern Ukraine; just like Hitler only wanted to protect the Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia. But with Barack Obama in the White House, I'm sure we'll have "Peace in our time."
But of course Putin only wants to protect the Russians in eastern Ukraine; just like Hitler only wanted to protect the Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia. But with Barack Obama in the White House, I'm sure we'll have "Peace in our time."
1
The brave fighters who fought to the death to hold the Donets airport
did so without new supplies---no bullets, no mortar shells, no food.
Help the Ukrainians now or they will succumb to Russian imperialism.
And then they will push forward to territories which are part of NATO.
That means war unless the NATO Treaty is abandoned by America
and its allies in Western Europe. Help Ukraine now or else.
did so without new supplies---no bullets, no mortar shells, no food.
Help the Ukrainians now or they will succumb to Russian imperialism.
And then they will push forward to territories which are part of NATO.
That means war unless the NATO Treaty is abandoned by America
and its allies in Western Europe. Help Ukraine now or else.
War aims change as wars go on, adapt to success or failure, and to potential for further gains.
Whatever Putin wanted, that will change as facts on the ground change.
Ukraine is plainly, utterly unable to win against Russia. The West is plainly, utterly unwilling to fight Russia on behalf of Ukraine. As a result, this will only get worse for Ukraine as it drags on.
Whatever deal we could do today, dragging on this fighting will only produce a worse deal later. Dribbling in arms in a slow escalation, always behind on the escalatory ladder, will just make things worse.
We are not facing just "Putin." We are facing Russia -- and their vital national interests as understood by the Russian defense establishment. This is very close to home for them.
We got cute in our involvement in Maiden events, and it blew up in our faces. We went from bragging about what we did to denying what we did, as it went from a second color revolution to a civil war on our hands. We made the fundamental mistake of repeating something that worked, after our opponent had plenty of time and opportunity to study what we'd done the first time and prepare for a replay.
This drive to confront Russia in Ukraine will end in disaster for Ukraine, a disaster that will get worse as time passes.
Does it serve our real purposes to confront Russia, to force it to spend on this, even if we sacrifice Ukraine in the process? I think that is exactly the calculation driving our new Cold Warriors. They're wrong.
Whatever Putin wanted, that will change as facts on the ground change.
Ukraine is plainly, utterly unable to win against Russia. The West is plainly, utterly unwilling to fight Russia on behalf of Ukraine. As a result, this will only get worse for Ukraine as it drags on.
Whatever deal we could do today, dragging on this fighting will only produce a worse deal later. Dribbling in arms in a slow escalation, always behind on the escalatory ladder, will just make things worse.
We are not facing just "Putin." We are facing Russia -- and their vital national interests as understood by the Russian defense establishment. This is very close to home for them.
We got cute in our involvement in Maiden events, and it blew up in our faces. We went from bragging about what we did to denying what we did, as it went from a second color revolution to a civil war on our hands. We made the fundamental mistake of repeating something that worked, after our opponent had plenty of time and opportunity to study what we'd done the first time and prepare for a replay.
This drive to confront Russia in Ukraine will end in disaster for Ukraine, a disaster that will get worse as time passes.
Does it serve our real purposes to confront Russia, to force it to spend on this, even if we sacrifice Ukraine in the process? I think that is exactly the calculation driving our new Cold Warriors. They're wrong.
5
Providing weapons is certainly a possibility but more than that, if Mariupol fall, then we should question Russian's participation in the SWIFT interbanking system.
In my opinion the west have to make the Russian aggression on Ukraine as costly as possible for Putin. Otherwise he is bound to repeat what he is doing in every former soviet countries.
In my opinion the west have to make the Russian aggression on Ukraine as costly as possible for Putin. Otherwise he is bound to repeat what he is doing in every former soviet countries.
Supplying arms is military mission creep. In doing so, it is wise to consider the tenets of the Powell Doctrine from both the US and Russian perspectives. None of the tenets (vital national security, clear attainable objectives, full risk analysis, exhaustion of non-violent policies, exit strategy, people's support, and genuine broad international support) are satisfied for the US, but most are satisfied for the Russians (or at least their leaders).
Perhaps if more resources were spent on Russian or Slavic studies at our Universities and genuine international relationship building initiatives, we wouldn't have to read so many idiotic, half-baked opinions in our mainstream media. Personally, I have no love lost for Russia, a largely backward, xenophobic and antisemitic place. However, the US policy toward it is negligently ignorant, arrogant, and simply too dangerous for the world.
Perhaps if more resources were spent on Russian or Slavic studies at our Universities and genuine international relationship building initiatives, we wouldn't have to read so many idiotic, half-baked opinions in our mainstream media. Personally, I have no love lost for Russia, a largely backward, xenophobic and antisemitic place. However, the US policy toward it is negligently ignorant, arrogant, and simply too dangerous for the world.
2
Give Kiev what it needs in military hardware to defend itself and take back eastern Ukraine from the Russian backed rebels. Mr. Putin is a megalomaniac who will do anything to fulfill his dreams. He has taken Russia on a dangerous course and needs to be stopped. If he isn't, we will soon have a full blown Hitler or Stalin to deal with.
1
It seems duplicitous for the U.S. to secretly work to strengthen pro-Western factions in the capital of Kiev, support a revolution with large injections of U.S. and EU cash to further strengthen this political party while ignoring the ethnic ties of Eastern Ukraine at the beginning of the intervention process. Believe it or not, some Ukrainians would fight to the death because of their ethnic heritage similar to the allegiance of Floridian Cubans and their hatred of the Castro regime. Now the U.S. wants to place the blame squarely on the feet of Russia without accepting any responsibility for the chaos within the country. I agree it's wise to partner with Russia for a peaceful resolution although must come with a caveat to stay out of the Ukrainian political process and allow the citizens to decide the fate of their country on their own, without any outside interference.
5
Every war initiates fractals of vengeance that grow exponentially, often culminating in genocide. You really don't want to go there.
5
If you have a bully who will resort to violence to gain his ends and you refuse to engage in violence, you have limited leverage in any negotiation.
What generally happens is that a conflict goes on and on, with death and destruction on both sides until it somehow peters out. We are seeing that in the mid-east now.
If we are not going to confront Putin in any meaningful way, and, frankly, this President would not be terribly credible in that role anyway, we should pile the non-violent sanctions on Putin and his crony states and on those that choose to do business with him (the EU for example) and ceed him whatever he is willing to fight for and we are not willing to defend.
Simple really.
What generally happens is that a conflict goes on and on, with death and destruction on both sides until it somehow peters out. We are seeing that in the mid-east now.
If we are not going to confront Putin in any meaningful way, and, frankly, this President would not be terribly credible in that role anyway, we should pile the non-violent sanctions on Putin and his crony states and on those that choose to do business with him (the EU for example) and ceed him whatever he is willing to fight for and we are not willing to defend.
Simple really.
1
There goes the NYT, negotiating away the land,political freedom and autonomy of the Ukraine. I guess fighting for whats legally yours (currently being annexed by Russia) is off the table for the editorial board.
If the editorial board suddenly had their obnoxious neighbors break into their home and start taking their possessions, "fighting back" would be off the table, and "lets negotiate what of mine Im willing to give you" is on the table.
Theres a severe lack of a spine at the NYT editorial board.
If the editorial board suddenly had their obnoxious neighbors break into their home and start taking their possessions, "fighting back" would be off the table, and "lets negotiate what of mine Im willing to give you" is on the table.
Theres a severe lack of a spine at the NYT editorial board.
2
Vladimir Putin clearly views himself as a tsar. That Russians support him is their prerogative.
Ukrainians detest Russians. Always have, always will. Russians reciprocate the attitudes.
Yes, the Ukrainians pulled off a coup to expel the Russian puppet. Yes, the Russians pulled off an earlier coup to put the Russian puppet in power.
Yes, the Europeans were sublimely indifferent until the Russians east of the border enabled the Russians west of the border to shoot down the passenger jet. Then the Europeans were shamed into being pushed by the United States to invoke economic sanctions against Russia.
So what?
Obviously, in geo political terms, Tsar Putin and his mercenaries are similar to Hitler's nazis. But they pose no threat whatsoever to the US. They are a European problem and it is well past time that Europeans take care of their own back yard, starting with honoring their defense spending commitment to NATO.
President Obama is waging the best possible foreign policy against the resurgent imperialist actions of Putin's Russia. Economic sanctions. By forcing the Europeans to participate and to bear the military burden, President Obama is signaling that the US is no longer willing to be unpaid mercenaries for the defense of Europe.
He is also signaling to the Russians that life under Putin's policies will be miserable.
Finally, he is signaling to Ukrainians that if they want to be Europeans, then they have to convince Europeans to support their cause.
Ukrainians detest Russians. Always have, always will. Russians reciprocate the attitudes.
Yes, the Ukrainians pulled off a coup to expel the Russian puppet. Yes, the Russians pulled off an earlier coup to put the Russian puppet in power.
Yes, the Europeans were sublimely indifferent until the Russians east of the border enabled the Russians west of the border to shoot down the passenger jet. Then the Europeans were shamed into being pushed by the United States to invoke economic sanctions against Russia.
So what?
Obviously, in geo political terms, Tsar Putin and his mercenaries are similar to Hitler's nazis. But they pose no threat whatsoever to the US. They are a European problem and it is well past time that Europeans take care of their own back yard, starting with honoring their defense spending commitment to NATO.
President Obama is waging the best possible foreign policy against the resurgent imperialist actions of Putin's Russia. Economic sanctions. By forcing the Europeans to participate and to bear the military burden, President Obama is signaling that the US is no longer willing to be unpaid mercenaries for the defense of Europe.
He is also signaling to the Russians that life under Putin's policies will be miserable.
Finally, he is signaling to Ukrainians that if they want to be Europeans, then they have to convince Europeans to support their cause.
3
I only wish the West would impose some sanctions on Russia that really bite; e.g.., canceling Russia's participation in SWIFT - the international banking mechanism that Russia relies on to move money. I think sending military arms to Ukraine is just what Putin wants; it's a trap that the West should avoid. As it stands, what Putin is up to is there for the whole world to see. Any piece of military hardware in the hands of the separatists that has no insignia on it obviously comes from Russia.
2
For all the talk of "junta" that got a clear majority in free elections; a "fascist" goverment led in part by a Groysman and financed by a Kolomoisky; the 5000 or so "civilian" dead, over 90% of whom turn out to be male; "ethnic differences" between Russians and, well, Russians---all of Ukraine's east and some of its most pro-Kievan provinces are overwhelmingly Russian---not only Putin must be living in a parallel world. Putin's propaganda money has been well spent.
1
The chef of the Ukrainian army has declared that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine. What do you make of that? Of course the Times will not publish that but rather spread false information. The times only talk about Russian backed rebels but not US-EU backed regime who kills civilians. If you want to stop the fighting in Ukraine, you have to ask both parties to stop and sit down to negotiate witch the Ukrainian regime refuses to do.
4
Putin gets what Putin wants. What does he want?
He is paranoid and fearful of the West. I would venture to guess that what he fears most is a democratic Ukraine that is strongly allied with Europe. He does not want a huge chunk of the former Soviet Union sitting in his underbelly that he cannot control. This would threaten his dictatorship.
During the cold war, the USSR wanted to use the nations of eastern Europe a buffer zone against aggression from the west. Putin is an old KGB warrior with the same cold war mindset. He wants that buffer zone. NATO threatens him. Putin is scared and feels cornered, under siege. So he lashes out the only way he knows. He uses military force.
He will get his buffer state and Ukraine will suffer. NATO will not risk WWIII over half of Ukraine. If this is the ultimate outcome, we should try to defuse the crisis by letting Putin out of his corner. Why prolong the bloodshed for a battle we have no intention of engaging? This isn't giving in. It's saving lives. We can't shape the world the way we want.
He is paranoid and fearful of the West. I would venture to guess that what he fears most is a democratic Ukraine that is strongly allied with Europe. He does not want a huge chunk of the former Soviet Union sitting in his underbelly that he cannot control. This would threaten his dictatorship.
During the cold war, the USSR wanted to use the nations of eastern Europe a buffer zone against aggression from the west. Putin is an old KGB warrior with the same cold war mindset. He wants that buffer zone. NATO threatens him. Putin is scared and feels cornered, under siege. So he lashes out the only way he knows. He uses military force.
He will get his buffer state and Ukraine will suffer. NATO will not risk WWIII over half of Ukraine. If this is the ultimate outcome, we should try to defuse the crisis by letting Putin out of his corner. Why prolong the bloodshed for a battle we have no intention of engaging? This isn't giving in. It's saving lives. We can't shape the world the way we want.
2
Some people would liken current Ukraine to Poland before world war two,in fact ,there are so much common places in these two countries ,they are the sandwich in the West and Russia and very vulnerable to their unsatiable neighbor .
1
A real war is unavoidable,Putin will not give in with less than a defeat of Europé/US or Russia.If we now not go all out fighting Kremlin threat to world peace we will be losers in the long run.Putins strenghs is his total despise of law and scruple wich only lethal force can stop.
The united states is responsible for the conflict in Ukraine. If the U S didn't destabilize the elected government and support an illegal government, there would be no war today. The Kiev government forced the hand of those in the eastern Ukraine and now their broke. Well BO HOO, it's Poroshenko's fault
for the continued fighting and also for his mass killing of women & children.
for the continued fighting and also for his mass killing of women & children.
4
Pro-Russian commentators in the west seem to have fallen for the creative narrative orchestrated by Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov. The Minsk accord in September last year was effectively a tactical delay by pro-Russian rebels and troops in east Ukraine. The humanitarian mission by Russian truck convoys hid arms and munitions in vehicles and rolled into Ukraine past borders under rebel control. News media personnel from the west were faked-out by empty or near-empty truck trailers. The Putin government is following the pattern of Hitler's Big Lie:
1) Russians are not involved in Ukraine civil unrest other than humanitarian aid;
2) Rebel forces heavy armaments tanks and missiles were not supplied by Russia;
3) The Ukrainians shot-down and killed 298 air passengers of MH17 - just look at the photo-shopped evidence;
4) Russian soldiers in Ukraine do not exist - it is a NATO/Kiev propaganda campaign
5) Kiev's military forces and the illegal government are neo-Nazi nationalists Bandera followers
6) The Crimea belonged to Russia all along - no annexation was necessary
7) The Americans instigated the Ukrainian civil war for their own interests to place missiles in east Ukraine to point them at Russia; and to profit from the resources of the Ukraine;
8) Russia's only interest is to protect the Russian-speaking people in east Ukraine who asked for help and assistance to defend against the artillery shelling by fascist Ukrainian military and Right Sector forces.
1) Russians are not involved in Ukraine civil unrest other than humanitarian aid;
2) Rebel forces heavy armaments tanks and missiles were not supplied by Russia;
3) The Ukrainians shot-down and killed 298 air passengers of MH17 - just look at the photo-shopped evidence;
4) Russian soldiers in Ukraine do not exist - it is a NATO/Kiev propaganda campaign
5) Kiev's military forces and the illegal government are neo-Nazi nationalists Bandera followers
6) The Crimea belonged to Russia all along - no annexation was necessary
7) The Americans instigated the Ukrainian civil war for their own interests to place missiles in east Ukraine to point them at Russia; and to profit from the resources of the Ukraine;
8) Russia's only interest is to protect the Russian-speaking people in east Ukraine who asked for help and assistance to defend against the artillery shelling by fascist Ukrainian military and Right Sector forces.
5
A few days ago an Ukrainian ambassador to Poland has said the following: "We will not let Donbass go even if there is nobody there left alive".
I believe this is not his personal view on the current situation, but rather a modus vivendi of Ukrainian government.
What is going on in Ukraine (with Russian assistance or not) is called civil war. History teaches that civil wars never end up in truth, like sometimes happens with wars between countries. One or another site must win. Putin has recently said in his interview that HE WILL NOT let Kiev win. And he will keep his word with or without arms shipments from the West.
I believe this is not his personal view on the current situation, but rather a modus vivendi of Ukrainian government.
What is going on in Ukraine (with Russian assistance or not) is called civil war. History teaches that civil wars never end up in truth, like sometimes happens with wars between countries. One or another site must win. Putin has recently said in his interview that HE WILL NOT let Kiev win. And he will keep his word with or without arms shipments from the West.
17
Golly, if Mr Putin says he wants it, we should all just allow it-especially the Ukrainians. Peace in our time.
1
Very wrong. This is not a civil war between Ukrainian people. This is a war fighting the Russian Army that is invading Ukraine. DO NOT misuse the term civil war. This is an invasion that was launched because Putin fears that his country will follow the path toward democracy that Ukraine is headed down.
1
Putin continues to flex his muscle in Ukraine despite the obvious impacts of sanctions and the Ruble’s sharp decline. The tighter the corner Putin gets pushed into the more likely the increased use of the Russian military as a response.
Annexing Crimea played well in Russia as does continued intervention in Ukraine.
Pumping up Kiev’s military may be the worst play by America, further inflaming an expanded proxy conflict that will bring much greater carnage and no resolution. Direct military intervention by NATO will mostly certainly trigger a full blown war.
Talk about expanded sanctions is cheap and ineffective. Europe needs to lead the way to double down on the economic costs to Putin and the reigning Russian oligarchy.
Annexing Crimea played well in Russia as does continued intervention in Ukraine.
Pumping up Kiev’s military may be the worst play by America, further inflaming an expanded proxy conflict that will bring much greater carnage and no resolution. Direct military intervention by NATO will mostly certainly trigger a full blown war.
Talk about expanded sanctions is cheap and ineffective. Europe needs to lead the way to double down on the economic costs to Putin and the reigning Russian oligarchy.
Kudos to the staff of the NYT for taking a cautious, yet firm stance against the clearly increasing aggression of Putin and his murderous regime. Putin, just like his murderous, Soviet predecessors and similar fascist expansionist Hitler understudy before that, understands only one thing - force. President Reagan well understood this incredibly evil mindset, engaging the Soviet Union in proxy wars every chance he had, even though the Soviets rattled their nuclear sabers then just like Putin constantly does now. For the Obama administration to continue to do nothing except apply ineffective economic sanctions is clearly unacceptable - we must stop the Russians at any cost, and if that means vaporizing a couple hundred "ghost" Russian tanks (and their crews) with Javelin anti-tank missiles that officially do not "exist" on Ukrainian territory, then so be it. If we "eliminate" enough of his capacity to wage conventional war, and do it quickly and efficiently with modern defensive weaponry, Putin will eventually get the message and withdraw discreetly, just like his Soviet predecessors had to do in Afghanistan in the late 1980s. What other options, short of starting a nuclear war of total annihilation for both sides, does a murderous despot like Putin have? Preserving his power and the tens of trillions of rubles he has stolen from his fellow countrymen is all that he cares about. Do you really think he cares at all, if a couple hundred Russian tanks get vaporized?
And Ukraine manages to lose the war to "Mr. Putin", even though "Mr.Putin's" army doesn't show up? Wow!
Now seriously, Kiev calls 4.5 million of locals "terrorists" and refuses to have any kind of official talks with rebels ("Minsk" was a joke, there wasn't even an official Ukrainian representative); there's not even a hint of possibility to listening to demands of the russian-speaking majority. Ukrainian army is shelling the cities every single day. They call Russia, who is supplying Ukraine with gas, coal and electricity an aggressor... And of course, it is "MrPutin" who's at fault.
Now seriously, Kiev calls 4.5 million of locals "terrorists" and refuses to have any kind of official talks with rebels ("Minsk" was a joke, there wasn't even an official Ukrainian representative); there's not even a hint of possibility to listening to demands of the russian-speaking majority. Ukrainian army is shelling the cities every single day. They call Russia, who is supplying Ukraine with gas, coal and electricity an aggressor... And of course, it is "MrPutin" who's at fault.
4
With the drilling rig count in the US down, Mr. Putin can anticipate more funds available for his war(s). Lucky thing for him, right wingers in the US are opposed to non-fossil fuel energy sources.
if you want to understand putin just watch the mew film "THE INTERVIEW" and you will understand who Putler is.
1
I'm not a Putin fan like many of our right wingers are but I do realize he did not start this fight. We had money to finance violence in the streets for the overthrow of a legitimate government. If this happened on our borders, we'd be reacting much more strongly than Putin is.
Once again we stirred the pot, caused a lot of trouble and now don't know what to do with it. Just as in the Middle East which has been a mess since the west arrived, we continue to make it worse to advacne our oil interests.
Once again we stirred the pot, caused a lot of trouble and now don't know what to do with it. Just as in the Middle East which has been a mess since the west arrived, we continue to make it worse to advacne our oil interests.
12
Putin is nothing more than a KGB thug who is looking out for his own best interests - $$$$$$$$$. He could care a less what happens to the citizens of his or any neighboring country, so long as he diverts attention away from the pillaging and plundering that he and his oligarch cronies are undertaking. More and stronger sanctions are needed!!!
Here is an idea Mr. President (Obama), why not start placing a federal property tax on all the U.S. property that these oligarchs have acquired in the last 10 years or so with all the money they plundered from their country.
Here is an idea Mr. President (Obama), why not start placing a federal property tax on all the U.S. property that these oligarchs have acquired in the last 10 years or so with all the money they plundered from their country.
2
I read a lot about how the US ousted the former ukrainian government. All right we don't really know what happened in Kiev last year.
However there has been elections since then and they seemed properly organized and it is extremely dangerous to let Putin playing his murderous game without a strong reaction.
The further he'll go, the bolder he'll be. No resistance means weakness to him, and weakness means further opportunities.
Putin is currently building up future conflicts in Eastern Europe and this should not be accepted.
The USA might not be legitimate to help Ukraine Vs Russia, but Europe is and should do it. The stake is peace for my children, everyone's children in Europe and there's nothing to be negotiated here.
However there has been elections since then and they seemed properly organized and it is extremely dangerous to let Putin playing his murderous game without a strong reaction.
The further he'll go, the bolder he'll be. No resistance means weakness to him, and weakness means further opportunities.
Putin is currently building up future conflicts in Eastern Europe and this should not be accepted.
The USA might not be legitimate to help Ukraine Vs Russia, but Europe is and should do it. The stake is peace for my children, everyone's children in Europe and there's nothing to be negotiated here.
1
"...No resistance means weakness to him, and weakness means further opportunities...."
It means weakness to a lot of people.
And, Obama is making sure that the United States is being viewed as weak and powerless.
It means weakness to a lot of people.
And, Obama is making sure that the United States is being viewed as weak and powerless.
My recent trip to kiev convinced me that one of putins biggest concerns is that if the Ukraine achieves genuine democratic reforms and an accountable governement IT might lead to demands for the same in Russia. But, sadly, I don't think he has much to fear. His control over the media in Russia, Ukraines lack of resources, the worlds relative indifference and the lengths that Ukraine must go to achieve this ideal state, favor Putin at this time.
That is no to say the situation is hopeless for Ukraine. What they need is a long view, patience and a willingness to resist this 21st century totalitarianism, in the same way that their relatives resisted in the last century resulting in that eras collapse of an unsustainable political system.
Months favour the unjust but centuries favour the just.
That is no to say the situation is hopeless for Ukraine. What they need is a long view, patience and a willingness to resist this 21st century totalitarianism, in the same way that their relatives resisted in the last century resulting in that eras collapse of an unsustainable political system.
Months favour the unjust but centuries favour the just.
The natively Spanish-speaking have this expression: "Palo si boga, y palo si no boga". Basically, it means that you get clobbered whatever you do.
If neither troops nor lethal assistance is provided Ukraine in its fight with Vladimir Putin, he's going to win as Ukraine continues over-matched and is drained of the capacity to resist. That means an eastern Ukraine at least dominated by Russia and, despite the editors' doubts, possibly annexed by Russia; and, in either case, the rest of Ukraine is thoroughly dominated by Russia. Yet, providing soldiers raises the specter of western troops (overwhelmingly American, let's be honest) at war with Russian troops; and providing money or materiel, or both, risks a forever-war that allows Putin to continue to stoke-up Russian nationalism and deflect attention from his dreadful management of Russia's economy. Putin needs to be shown that the drain on his own resources that he needs for other purposes could become perpetual.
There's no way Ukraine is important enough to the west to risk war with Russia, but we should remember that the U.S.S.R. eventually foundered largely because it couldn't compete economically with the west while maintaining a credible defense capacity -- they tried and failed. Painting a picture of perpetual western financial and arms assistance to Ukraine, buying the confederation idea but insisting that Ukraine join the Eurozone may have the legs necessary -- and may be the only rational way out.
If neither troops nor lethal assistance is provided Ukraine in its fight with Vladimir Putin, he's going to win as Ukraine continues over-matched and is drained of the capacity to resist. That means an eastern Ukraine at least dominated by Russia and, despite the editors' doubts, possibly annexed by Russia; and, in either case, the rest of Ukraine is thoroughly dominated by Russia. Yet, providing soldiers raises the specter of western troops (overwhelmingly American, let's be honest) at war with Russian troops; and providing money or materiel, or both, risks a forever-war that allows Putin to continue to stoke-up Russian nationalism and deflect attention from his dreadful management of Russia's economy. Putin needs to be shown that the drain on his own resources that he needs for other purposes could become perpetual.
There's no way Ukraine is important enough to the west to risk war with Russia, but we should remember that the U.S.S.R. eventually foundered largely because it couldn't compete economically with the west while maintaining a credible defense capacity -- they tried and failed. Painting a picture of perpetual western financial and arms assistance to Ukraine, buying the confederation idea but insisting that Ukraine join the Eurozone may have the legs necessary -- and may be the only rational way out.
Mr. Putin will not give in as he considers Ukraine as being within the Russian sphere of influence. Any attempt to break out of that will meet with Russian opposition, even if Russia's economy is also shaky due to Western punishment. Mr. Putin will not budge.
The longer this situation persists, the more chance that Russia will carve out more of Ukraine as separate pro-Russian enclaves, not because it wants to, but just out of momentum.
A Russian federation would be acceptable to Mr. Putin, but probably not in the form that the US and West would agree to.
Time, in spite of economic pressure is on Russia's side.
The longer this situation persists, the more chance that Russia will carve out more of Ukraine as separate pro-Russian enclaves, not because it wants to, but just out of momentum.
A Russian federation would be acceptable to Mr. Putin, but probably not in the form that the US and West would agree to.
Time, in spite of economic pressure is on Russia's side.
3
The editorial board positon? Appease, appease, appease. You have to make this painful on the battlefield for the Russians. To pretend that this is not a fight between the U.S. and Russia is naive. The Ukrainians need military support and we should provide it.
4
The question that's missing here is what our strategic or for that matter economic interests are in Ukraine that we would get involved in the war there. What to we have to gain other than feeling like Zorro and riding in, saving the peasants and foiling the bad guy. Ukraine is a corrupt, inept government of a population of bullies and peasants. The US has so many other issues where time and money would be better spent. Fine to talk about it, but don't give Putin the reason he needs to start a bigger war.
Of much greater concern are the Russian Military overflights of western countries. This cannot be allowed. If I were in the NATO member Baltic countries I'd be really worried about the organization's level of commitment to my defense. As with Crimea, it's too late to talk about it after the deed is done. We should send an inexpensive, unambiguous message to Mr. Putin -- Shoot them down.
Of much greater concern are the Russian Military overflights of western countries. This cannot be allowed. If I were in the NATO member Baltic countries I'd be really worried about the organization's level of commitment to my defense. As with Crimea, it's too late to talk about it after the deed is done. We should send an inexpensive, unambiguous message to Mr. Putin -- Shoot them down.
1
Mr Putin proves over and over again that he is a despicable liar, thug, killer and charlatan.
A billionaire who is protector his billionaire oligarch pals to whom he hands out billions gov't contracts like candy. What a terrible predicament for Ukraine and for Ukrainians living in the east, including some of my relatives.
A billionaire who is protector his billionaire oligarch pals to whom he hands out billions gov't contracts like candy. What a terrible predicament for Ukraine and for Ukrainians living in the east, including some of my relatives.
3
Oh, heck. Let the Russians have them,
As Churchill said a long time ago, Russia respects only force and despises weakness. That tells us how Putin regards Obama and the United States under his leadership.
Obama should at least be honest (?) with us and the world; we will let them take whatever they want.
As Churchill said a long time ago, Russia respects only force and despises weakness. That tells us how Putin regards Obama and the United States under his leadership.
Obama should at least be honest (?) with us and the world; we will let them take whatever they want.
As we all now know, President Obama sees the truth as something that is subservient to his political agenda. And Obama's silence on Putin's Russia and their attempt to annex another part of the Ukraine suggest that Obama sees it as politically expedient for him to ignore the issue.
When Obama noted to Putin that he would have a lot more flexibility after his re-election, he gave Putin the permission to do whatever he wanted in the area, and the United States would be "flexible" in any response.
Obama has invited and encouraged Putin and the Russian Bear to become aggressive.
I wonder if there will ever be a time when Obama will draw a "red line" against anything and actually have the character and moral courage to stand by his words.
This is a problem of Obama's making. And the United States and Europe are facing the consequences.
Does anyone doubt that, when this pear becomes plump and well-shaped, that it will be all the fault of someone else?
When Obama noted to Putin that he would have a lot more flexibility after his re-election, he gave Putin the permission to do whatever he wanted in the area, and the United States would be "flexible" in any response.
Obama has invited and encouraged Putin and the Russian Bear to become aggressive.
I wonder if there will ever be a time when Obama will draw a "red line" against anything and actually have the character and moral courage to stand by his words.
This is a problem of Obama's making. And the United States and Europe are facing the consequences.
Does anyone doubt that, when this pear becomes plump and well-shaped, that it will be all the fault of someone else?
1
U.S. Govt should be aware that the Ukraine Govt is probably heavily infiltrated by Russian agents ... so will be difficult (if not impossible) to give assistance without it falling into the hands of the Kremlin. Most of the equipment we gave Iraq is in the hands of ISIS. I'm not saying that the Ukrainians are necessarily as incompetent as the Iraqis, but difficult to say for sure. (Ukraine has a history of corruption, like Iraq).
The Russians have the whip hand in this war. They don't have to invest a great deal of men and material just enough to keep the pot simmering thus keeping the Ukraine economy on its back.
Kiev thinks the EU and especially Germany with its deep pockets should pump money into their coffers but both the EU and Germany while giving lip service to Kiev have no intention of serious investment in such a corrupt shattered country at war. They might as well burn the money in an incinerator or bail out Greece to more effect.
If Poroshenko is waiting for NATO and sanctions to ride to the rescue he may have a long wait. Moscow seems determined to make sure that Ukraine does not become a part of NATO and most if not all of NATO agrees with this. His best course is to meet with Merkel and Putin in a neutral location and hammer out an agreement.
The US should not be a part of these negotiations since this is primarily an eastern European matter and the Americans are incapable of being honest brokers over this issue because they have a different and more antagonistic agenda regarding Russia and will be happy to fight to the last Ukrainian.
Kiev thinks the EU and especially Germany with its deep pockets should pump money into their coffers but both the EU and Germany while giving lip service to Kiev have no intention of serious investment in such a corrupt shattered country at war. They might as well burn the money in an incinerator or bail out Greece to more effect.
If Poroshenko is waiting for NATO and sanctions to ride to the rescue he may have a long wait. Moscow seems determined to make sure that Ukraine does not become a part of NATO and most if not all of NATO agrees with this. His best course is to meet with Merkel and Putin in a neutral location and hammer out an agreement.
The US should not be a part of these negotiations since this is primarily an eastern European matter and the Americans are incapable of being honest brokers over this issue because they have a different and more antagonistic agenda regarding Russia and will be happy to fight to the last Ukrainian.
28
Putin is not stopping with more pieces of Ukraine. His goal is world domination. He is the latest Stalin , Hitler you name it. He must be stopped by our military. Unfortunately for the world we have an appeaser President and NY Times to enable him. Putin is a much bigger threat to world stability than a bunch of freaks running around the desert in jeeps.
8
"His goal is world domination."
World domination is an accomplished fact of Western power. Putin could not possibly change that, and he isn't trying to change that.
China might, over a longer term, but this stuff with Russia is just a distraction from that real issue.
Why do we use this distraction? Defense budgets. It is the useful current excuse.
World domination is an accomplished fact of Western power. Putin could not possibly change that, and he isn't trying to change that.
China might, over a longer term, but this stuff with Russia is just a distraction from that real issue.
Why do we use this distraction? Defense budgets. It is the useful current excuse.
4
How many sons are you willing to give for that effort?
2
To exaggerate Putin's danger to the west is to build a cold war boogie man and encourage widespread fear that is counterproductive. Tactics from the west that were intended to isolate Putin have created a cold war mentality in Russia. Ukraine is very close to Russia and has historical ties that must be resolved through negotiation, not escalating military response or crippling sanctions, which just encourage a backlash from a wounded enemy. A republic with semi-autonomous regions is probably the most reasonable solution, as all citizens of Ukraine may be protected and Russians can be assured that they are not being isolated. We don't need to make US weapons manufacturers more wealthy with taxpayer money. We need to focus on building a better America for all of its citizens.
1
This is not the business of the United States. This is in the Russian zone of influence. The Europeans and Nato should tread very carefully, we would not want the Russian Bear to become what it once was. Where the hell is that stupid reset button, push it again.
18
Syria is not US business, Afghanistan is not US business, Iraq is not US business. Yet all those wars are fought bu the US. Why? Because none of those countries have any professional military or military equipment. What was the last time that the US, France, or British fought any country with real military? That's right, WWII. The only countries that did fight professional army are Georgia and Ukraine. If Ukraine loses, and it will then next will be Europe and then the US will have to go and fight for Europe, but then Russia will be 2 times stronger than it is now. This is no Iraq, Syria, or Afghanistan.
This is not Russia's sphere of influence any longer. The Soviet Union dies over two decades ago. Ukraine has a right to be a free and sovereign country. Putin is a totalitarian monster who does not care for anyone except himself and his close knit group of goons. He will let Russian soldiers die in a country that does not belong to them.
2
Thanks to the policy of appeasement and "tolerance" that his been pursued by Obama, Clinton and Kerry, the odds of the Russian bear being restored to its former menacing form are increasing by leaps and bounds.
1
The Ukrainians will continue to defend their territory with or without US military aid. It is a high wire act to see if such aid will prevent greater carnage or only escalate it. Be there no doubt that Putin is the source of this aggression and the right thing to do is to stop him. Neither be there no doubt that the winds of war are blowing hard and it will take a genius at political gamesmanship to turn the battlefield into a negotiating table rather than a mortuary.
3
Arm Ukraine, do it now, double the pain of the sanctions, do it now. Thinking that given in to a thug will make things better is the O style of global politics.
Putin has O over a barrel when it comes to Iran, since O wants a deal for his 'legacy'. Putin will not let it happen and O knows it. Putin wants to keep O occupied in fending off Iran so he can keep doing the bad things in Ukraine. Will O be fooled? Of course.
Putin has O over a barrel when it comes to Iran, since O wants a deal for his 'legacy'. Putin will not let it happen and O knows it. Putin wants to keep O occupied in fending off Iran so he can keep doing the bad things in Ukraine. Will O be fooled? Of course.
4
If Russia wanted to do so, it could roll over Ukraine in two weeks, as Putin already said.
NATO has made clear it will not fight a European land war with Russia to liberate Ukraine. Even the UK said so, bluntly.
Keep pushing, and we will keep losing. Limit the damage. Face the limits of reality rather than making things worse.
We are not going to fight WW3 with Russia over this. That isn't appeasement, that is the reality. It ain't gonna happen.
NATO has made clear it will not fight a European land war with Russia to liberate Ukraine. Even the UK said so, bluntly.
Keep pushing, and we will keep losing. Limit the damage. Face the limits of reality rather than making things worse.
We are not going to fight WW3 with Russia over this. That isn't appeasement, that is the reality. It ain't gonna happen.
4
I'm curious, did you refer to our previous presidents, in reverse order here, as B2, C, B1, R, C, F, and N? Or did you change up the nomenclature because the current president isn't white and thus not worthy of respect?
When peoples' hatred for our president is this evident, I wind up hoping for the worst for them, it's like unpatriotic people, they make me nauseous.
In any case, everything you state here is wrong. Arming Ukraine leads to direct military conflict with Russia, which leads to nuclear war, which kills us all. Intolerably stupid to do that over Ukraine, considering the nation is meaningless to us. We're not giving in to a thug here, just letting Russia control its sphere of influence, just as they let us do in ours. A deal with Iran would be a good thing, but President Obama's legacy is already assured without it, and Iran is not terribly important either. And the president is no fool, unlike the last one.
When peoples' hatred for our president is this evident, I wind up hoping for the worst for them, it's like unpatriotic people, they make me nauseous.
In any case, everything you state here is wrong. Arming Ukraine leads to direct military conflict with Russia, which leads to nuclear war, which kills us all. Intolerably stupid to do that over Ukraine, considering the nation is meaningless to us. We're not giving in to a thug here, just letting Russia control its sphere of influence, just as they let us do in ours. A deal with Iran would be a good thing, but President Obama's legacy is already assured without it, and Iran is not terribly important either. And the president is no fool, unlike the last one.
1
The Russian and Ukranian rebel objective seems to me to be the domination of lands westward to the Dnieper River which is a natural defensible feature that also separates ethnic majorities and on which lies the capital Kiev.
You have to have your your maps and atlases. The governments and generals live by them.
You have to have your your maps and atlases. The governments and generals live by them.
"The first question is, to negotiate what? Along with denying the direct involvement of his troops in eastern Ukraine, Mr. Putin has not made clear what he is trying to achieve. Russian officials have suggested that Moscow has no interest in annexing eastern Ukraine, the way it grabbed Crimea, but rather seeks a Ukrainian federation in which the pro-Russian provinces would have relative autonomy, along with assurances that Ukraine will not move to join NATO".
NYT Editorial Board is not even trying anymore. In the same paragraph they first say that Putin "has not made clear what he is trying to achieve", only to list his very clear and reasonable demands (autonomy for Donbas and non-aligned status for Ukraine) in the next sentence. Can they disrespect their readers more? Those Putin's demands remain unchanged from the very beginning of this conflict. Meeting them (and, please,explain to me what would be so wrong with federated and neutral Ukraine?) would end this civil war almost immediately.
NYT Editorial Board is not even trying anymore. In the same paragraph they first say that Putin "has not made clear what he is trying to achieve", only to list his very clear and reasonable demands (autonomy for Donbas and non-aligned status for Ukraine) in the next sentence. Can they disrespect their readers more? Those Putin's demands remain unchanged from the very beginning of this conflict. Meeting them (and, please,explain to me what would be so wrong with federated and neutral Ukraine?) would end this civil war almost immediately.
6
"autonomy for Donbas and non-aligned status for Ukraine"
Now. If we keep this going, it can and will get worse. Donbas can go the way of Crimea, the whole Black Sea coast could.
Putin has left that option open. If we keep fighting, and keep losing, then we won't get back what more we lose in this hopeless venture urging Ukraine to fight Russia.
Now. If we keep this going, it can and will get worse. Donbas can go the way of Crimea, the whole Black Sea coast could.
Putin has left that option open. If we keep fighting, and keep losing, then we won't get back what more we lose in this hopeless venture urging Ukraine to fight Russia.
You are suggesting the same appeasement strategy that didn't work in 1938. What makes you think it will work this time ?
Hi everybody. I have just read all comments and what i want to notice:
1. Revolution in Ukraine at the beginning was against theft Yanukovych regime, not against Russia.
2. When Russia annexed Crimea they used not just their militaries from Black sea fleet, which dislocated there officially, but they also invaded special navy forces from southern regions of Russia using Kerch ferry station.
3. There are (in Ukraine) no more fascist than in USA.
4. People from South-eastern Ukraine and even Kyiv inhabitants are mostly russian speaking, but appr. 60% of them are Ukrainian patriots. At least 50% Ukraine people are russian speaking but lion stake of them are Ukrainian patriots. The biggest amount Russia supporters are in Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv regions but even they don't want to war. Ukraine is very peaceful country.
5. We never had Russia culture (language) problem in such level that it could cause war.
6. IMHO, for the US government in that situation, it is very hard decision how to act. But for Ukrainian people that is struggle for true Independence and Freedom.
1. Revolution in Ukraine at the beginning was against theft Yanukovych regime, not against Russia.
2. When Russia annexed Crimea they used not just their militaries from Black sea fleet, which dislocated there officially, but they also invaded special navy forces from southern regions of Russia using Kerch ferry station.
3. There are (in Ukraine) no more fascist than in USA.
4. People from South-eastern Ukraine and even Kyiv inhabitants are mostly russian speaking, but appr. 60% of them are Ukrainian patriots. At least 50% Ukraine people are russian speaking but lion stake of them are Ukrainian patriots. The biggest amount Russia supporters are in Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv regions but even they don't want to war. Ukraine is very peaceful country.
5. We never had Russia culture (language) problem in such level that it could cause war.
6. IMHO, for the US government in that situation, it is very hard decision how to act. But for Ukrainian people that is struggle for true Independence and Freedom.
37
You are overlooking the fact that Donetsk and Lugansk do not wish to be ruled by Kiev. Kiev has spilled too much blood in the East to expect to govern these two oblasts peacefully. They should be given their independence. They don't want to be under the EU and IMF, nor do they want to be westernized. DO try and understand what they want and not what Kiev thinks they want.
This was entirely predictable and obvious, but not to Obama.
Putin would, to the degree he can, resurrect the Cold War. The US must use NATO, which has become nearly vestigial in its dysfunction, to protect the freedoms of Russia's neighbors.
The US should immediately send war materiel to Ukraine, and state that Russian imperialism will not be tolerated. But no troops, just aid and smart diplomacy mobilizing our allies.
Leftist, please note: this has nothing to do with Bush, Iraq, boots on the ground, and other things you hate!
Putin would, to the degree he can, resurrect the Cold War. The US must use NATO, which has become nearly vestigial in its dysfunction, to protect the freedoms of Russia's neighbors.
The US should immediately send war materiel to Ukraine, and state that Russian imperialism will not be tolerated. But no troops, just aid and smart diplomacy mobilizing our allies.
Leftist, please note: this has nothing to do with Bush, Iraq, boots on the ground, and other things you hate!
15
What is your goal? You can certainly increase the death toll by sending military aid, but how is that a solution? You say that the U.S. must use NATO; why must the U.S. use NATO? It is in Europe's backyard and I am sure they would be more than willing to let us exhaust our resources on their behalf. As unsatisfying as it may be to apply sanctions and wait, this is a European problem and unless/until they take the lead anything we do will have limited affect.
7
Securing the freedoms for Russia's neighbors is my goal.
You take your freedoms for granted because many have suffered and fought to secure them.
Other nations were helped by NATO against USSR aggression, and need more help against USSR 2.0.
You take your freedoms for granted because many have suffered and fought to secure them.
Other nations were helped by NATO against USSR aggression, and need more help against USSR 2.0.
5
"Putin would, to the degree he can, resurrect the Cold War."
That was the US choice, not Putin's. He is reacting, not initiating. We could stop this Cold War in a weekend summit, if we wanted to do so.
Our permanent government of national security wants Cold War 2, it is our policy.
That was the US choice, not Putin's. He is reacting, not initiating. We could stop this Cold War in a weekend summit, if we wanted to do so.
Our permanent government of national security wants Cold War 2, it is our policy.
5
"the greater objective must be to end the fighting so that Ukraine"
of course, but this is no wishing well, you must come up with a plan.
The russian backed rebels have attacked Mariupol, which is 50% Ukrainians and 45% Russians and which got very well along, there had been no quarrels, until now. This war is expanding and slowly eating up parts of the country where russians never had been a majority (100 years ago, russians where only 10% of Mariopol).
At least we should enable the ukraine to protect those parts of the country which had been in their jurisdiction up to now.
And this is not a war like it was in WW2 or would have been in WW3, in this conflict every lost tank, every dead soldier is a political issue, at some point it has a backlash for Putin.
of course, but this is no wishing well, you must come up with a plan.
The russian backed rebels have attacked Mariupol, which is 50% Ukrainians and 45% Russians and which got very well along, there had been no quarrels, until now. This war is expanding and slowly eating up parts of the country where russians never had been a majority (100 years ago, russians where only 10% of Mariopol).
At least we should enable the ukraine to protect those parts of the country which had been in their jurisdiction up to now.
And this is not a war like it was in WW2 or would have been in WW3, in this conflict every lost tank, every dead soldier is a political issue, at some point it has a backlash for Putin.
12
Before the rebels attacked, the Ukraine government made several wild public statements about fighting on to recover all, and to utterly destroy the rebels. You are ignoring the agency of the other side.
3
Are you so influenced by Angela Merkel that you fail to understand that there are 2 oblasts in Ukraine that want their independence from Kiev. Is that such a wrong idea that we allow Kiev to slaughter people to have a unitary state? This is not about Putin, yes he does aid the military of the two oblasts, but that is no different than Poland sending military aid to Kiev.
3
We are blundering our way into catastrophe. None of this would have happened had we, when the Ukrainian unrest first began, assured Putin that Ukraine would not be admitted to the EU or to NATO. Moral issues aside, those have always been red lines for Putin and many other Russians, and by encouraging Ukraine to believe such was possible, we presented Putin with an issue on which he was prepared to fight.
I do not doubt that admission into the West would be beneficial to Ukraine and morally Russia has no business dictating to Ukraine as to its internal politics or economic future. But it is ironic that we continue to hold out the possiblity of such a future to Ukraine, under which we would be obligated to come to its defense if attacked, and thereby provoking Putin to attack in in actuality, when we are not now willing to come to its defense anyway.
Putin is attacking Ukraine because he thinks we will bring it into NATO, but we are not willing to defend it anyway. Which seems to me to present us with the choice of whether to appease Putin and throw Ukraine to the wolves or to come to its defense. And if we are not willing to defend it, in actuality we would not be bringing it into NATO and the EU anyway, so our only option would be to help them make the best deal they can (ie appease Putin).
A signal lesson in the foolishness of cheerleading those foreign developments we are not willing to fight to defend.
I do not doubt that admission into the West would be beneficial to Ukraine and morally Russia has no business dictating to Ukraine as to its internal politics or economic future. But it is ironic that we continue to hold out the possiblity of such a future to Ukraine, under which we would be obligated to come to its defense if attacked, and thereby provoking Putin to attack in in actuality, when we are not now willing to come to its defense anyway.
Putin is attacking Ukraine because he thinks we will bring it into NATO, but we are not willing to defend it anyway. Which seems to me to present us with the choice of whether to appease Putin and throw Ukraine to the wolves or to come to its defense. And if we are not willing to defend it, in actuality we would not be bringing it into NATO and the EU anyway, so our only option would be to help them make the best deal they can (ie appease Putin).
A signal lesson in the foolishness of cheerleading those foreign developments we are not willing to fight to defend.
30
Lots of red lines for Obama! Somehow he speaks of them, then does not know where to draw them. And we have to have him for two more years draw more red lines?
Why Russia's wishes are so prominently highlighted while those of Ukrainians are dismissed? Does it matter what Ukrainians want at all? A membership in NATO might be one thing, but EU? What's wrong with improving life conditions for 10s of millons of Ukrainians? How about some free market instead of oligarchs, freedom of speech instead of propaganda machine, and human rights instead of gulags? Russia would not be a factor if it did not want to loose another country from its sphere of influence. They oppressed their neighbors for centuries, and unfortunately continue to do so. It is easy to forget the English tried to do the same.
1
To TomEq:
There is nothing wrong with what you are proposing (and everything right). Unfortunately, the Russians do not see it that way, and feel strongly enough about it to fight to impose their will.
There is nothing wrong with bringing Ukraine westward, but since Russia is willing to fight on this and we are not, as a practical matter, our policy is foolish and has only put the people of Ukraine in a worse position than formerly.
This is not about what is right and wrong. It is not about what is proper economic policy. It is power politics, and just because we choose not to view our wishes in such light does not mean that other nations view it similarly or are willing to peacefully accept our moral pronouncements.
There is nothing wrong with what you are proposing (and everything right). Unfortunately, the Russians do not see it that way, and feel strongly enough about it to fight to impose their will.
There is nothing wrong with bringing Ukraine westward, but since Russia is willing to fight on this and we are not, as a practical matter, our policy is foolish and has only put the people of Ukraine in a worse position than formerly.
This is not about what is right and wrong. It is not about what is proper economic policy. It is power politics, and just because we choose not to view our wishes in such light does not mean that other nations view it similarly or are willing to peacefully accept our moral pronouncements.
I am troubled by the possibility that this could become a cold-war style proxy war, i.e., we fight against the USSR (Putin still lives in the USSR in his head) on someone else's soil. Historically, we 'won' some of those little wars; the USSR 'won' some of them. Other peoples paid the price.
In the suggestions of an agreement, I am outraged at the idea that Ukraine would have to agree not to join NATO. Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Why would we consider allowing Putin to dictate what alliances it can or cannot make?
In the suggestions of an agreement, I am outraged at the idea that Ukraine would have to agree not to join NATO. Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Why would we consider allowing Putin to dictate what alliances it can or cannot make?
18
Because Rebels are winning and Ukranian government force is losing, Why is it so hard to understand? The strongest dictates the rule.
1
What is our other option? Should we tell Ukrainians that we back off from the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances? Should we tell Ukrainians that now they are at the mercy of Russia? Should we tell Ukrainians that the international agreement with the Unites States signature on it, now can be used instead of the toilet paper? This is the alternative to helping Ukraine.
1
I couldn't agree with you more Anne-Marie This is what he wants - this small, demented, full of complexes man - to dictate everyone what is "good" ( good in his view is to be miserable and crawl on your knees to Kremlin begging for forgiveness, mercy and support, "bad" means to be part of the civilized world. to allow people to speak their mind, to respect other nations' choices. I am afraid that this war criminal has gone too far this time in his desire, which is more of obsession. to be popular with Russians whose mentality, in most cases, is similar to that of Middle Age. He must be stopped at any cost or...
1
Thataway NYT, let's expand existing sanctions against Russia. The Kievian government is simon-pure; Putin is a psychopathic dictator. Who's kidding whom here? You speak of casualties, yet imprecise to a journalistic fault. Let's have a clearer breakdown. But more, do you think Kiev would even discuss an arrangement of true federalism with respect to the eastern provinces?
Your course is one of war. USG has been maneuvering into that situation for some time. Have you forgotten the COUP, or do you deny its existence? Have you forgotten Victoria Nuland and her plans/activities, or do you deny that too? Is Russia wrong in its concern that NATO seeks troops at its borders?
Demonizing Putin is surely great fun, or has it become an addiction (in the same way The Times for decades was obsessed with Fidel)? Before jumping into the fire that is Ukraine, ask yourself: Are the sanctions against Russia warranted? What of the neo-Nazis who were and are prominent in Kiev? Is confronting Russia part of a broader geopolitical strategy that also includes confronting China? And why, confrontation in the first place?
Unilateral US superpower-dom, in a changing world, is no longer possible. To then seek to enforce it, at the risk of global nuclear war, is irresponsible if not also suicidal. Start peeling away the layers of policy, including the war on terror, and see what is before our noses: an alarming re-activation of a Cold War that indeed never fully subsided.
Your course is one of war. USG has been maneuvering into that situation for some time. Have you forgotten the COUP, or do you deny its existence? Have you forgotten Victoria Nuland and her plans/activities, or do you deny that too? Is Russia wrong in its concern that NATO seeks troops at its borders?
Demonizing Putin is surely great fun, or has it become an addiction (in the same way The Times for decades was obsessed with Fidel)? Before jumping into the fire that is Ukraine, ask yourself: Are the sanctions against Russia warranted? What of the neo-Nazis who were and are prominent in Kiev? Is confronting Russia part of a broader geopolitical strategy that also includes confronting China? And why, confrontation in the first place?
Unilateral US superpower-dom, in a changing world, is no longer possible. To then seek to enforce it, at the risk of global nuclear war, is irresponsible if not also suicidal. Start peeling away the layers of policy, including the war on terror, and see what is before our noses: an alarming re-activation of a Cold War that indeed never fully subsided.
59
It is quite opposite. Russia is a large country. It has almost endless natural resources, it is undercapitalized – in short, it is an ideal business opportunity. Everyone in the West wants to do business there. With this approach, Western politicians for long tried to look the other way when Russian leaders, President Putin in particular, “stretched” the interpretation of the international agreements in expanding Russia’s areas of influence. In the case of Ukraine, the current Russian leaders simply do not want to accept that Ukraine is an independent country, not a Russian vassal. This is the beginning and the end of the crisis we experience now.
"Bend over and let the bullies have their way with you", is no way to go through life "norman"
1
Norman how about let's not and try minding our own business. There are way more important problems right in in the USA. Out infrastructure is falling apart and
we continue to burn money overseas with wars and troop deployments.
$100's of billions are being wasted so we can show the world how great and important the U.S. is in this world.
we continue to burn money overseas with wars and troop deployments.
$100's of billions are being wasted so we can show the world how great and important the U.S. is in this world.
The moral question is now, who should lose, Ukraine or the US.
The US might lose face and prestige, and that's it.
Ukraine might lose everything, from more thousands of lives, to more ruined economy to more displaced refugees, to more civil war wounds.
What Russia is doing in Ukraine, is the same what America would be doing in Canada, if there was a Russian orchestrated coup that resulted in the overthrow of a friendly Canadian government towards the US. Russia just can't back off, their stakes are up to the sky.
America is too proud to lose too.... what I would suggest is America let the Europeans handle this matter completely, America can't lose to the Russians, and they can't be an honest broker between Ukraine and Russia (just like they can't be honest broker between the Palestinians and the Israelis). Stay away, and let the Europeans and the Russians sort it out.
To suggest supplying more weapons to Kiev, is to make sure you have another Syria, this time in Europe.
The US might lose face and prestige, and that's it.
Ukraine might lose everything, from more thousands of lives, to more ruined economy to more displaced refugees, to more civil war wounds.
What Russia is doing in Ukraine, is the same what America would be doing in Canada, if there was a Russian orchestrated coup that resulted in the overthrow of a friendly Canadian government towards the US. Russia just can't back off, their stakes are up to the sky.
America is too proud to lose too.... what I would suggest is America let the Europeans handle this matter completely, America can't lose to the Russians, and they can't be an honest broker between Ukraine and Russia (just like they can't be honest broker between the Palestinians and the Israelis). Stay away, and let the Europeans and the Russians sort it out.
To suggest supplying more weapons to Kiev, is to make sure you have another Syria, this time in Europe.
12
"Mariupol, an importent port on the" Azov Sea.
4
What happened in Ukraine is a part of much wider, complex General Plan.
And the Oil War is integral part of it.
Talking of "Mr. Putin's War" is a plain and open LIE!
Yes, Mr. Putin feels threatened - not only by a McNamara-style "Containment" - but worse: a military 'Ring of Steel' from the Arctic via Greenland, Iceland, Norway, Estonia, ... Poland ... and now: Ukraine and Georgia ... to Azerbaidzhan, Turkmenistan, Kirkyztan, Tadzhikistan (and Afghanistan, Pakistan) - all the way to China.
Think of the Cuba-fear in the USA. And Putin should sit there with a smile?
But he hasn't even done anything to bring about this crisis! It was the false US-tactics in Kiev, the alliance with open Fascists (who did a massacre on the Maidan, claimed it was the President, and started a putsch).
Those people are in power there now.
But that got people moving - away from Kiev - away from people they could not trust - and never will:
Let's face it: If the US and NATO marched in there to help their poor little friends (with Nazi SS signs on their helmets) - what do they think the result would be? Think of the Maidan - but this massacre would be much bigger - Srebrenica would be a "Sunday school outing".
Those helmets and their insignia are not without meaning. They were seen in Ukraine at an earlier time, and the Ukrainian nationalist SS did80% of the mass murder of Baby Yar. This would not be any less.
And, as in Avkhazia and Ossetia, Putin would not tolerate that. Is that what Obama wants?
And the Oil War is integral part of it.
Talking of "Mr. Putin's War" is a plain and open LIE!
Yes, Mr. Putin feels threatened - not only by a McNamara-style "Containment" - but worse: a military 'Ring of Steel' from the Arctic via Greenland, Iceland, Norway, Estonia, ... Poland ... and now: Ukraine and Georgia ... to Azerbaidzhan, Turkmenistan, Kirkyztan, Tadzhikistan (and Afghanistan, Pakistan) - all the way to China.
Think of the Cuba-fear in the USA. And Putin should sit there with a smile?
But he hasn't even done anything to bring about this crisis! It was the false US-tactics in Kiev, the alliance with open Fascists (who did a massacre on the Maidan, claimed it was the President, and started a putsch).
Those people are in power there now.
But that got people moving - away from Kiev - away from people they could not trust - and never will:
Let's face it: If the US and NATO marched in there to help their poor little friends (with Nazi SS signs on their helmets) - what do they think the result would be? Think of the Maidan - but this massacre would be much bigger - Srebrenica would be a "Sunday school outing".
Those helmets and their insignia are not without meaning. They were seen in Ukraine at an earlier time, and the Ukrainian nationalist SS did80% of the mass murder of Baby Yar. This would not be any less.
And, as in Avkhazia and Ossetia, Putin would not tolerate that. Is that what Obama wants?
14
Spoken like a true kremlin troll. The CITIZENS of Ukraine wanting to be free of corruption and mafia occupation has NOTHING to do with the Moscovites stationing nukes in Cuba. NOTHING.
3
I expect a whole lot better from the NYT's. Russia is acting exactly as expected and I sure the RAND corp would agree. Yet you want to give weapons to a right wing controlled Ukraine??...Utter madness, beaking the first rule of annihilation....nuclear powers DO NOT play chicken. Rule number 2...when you are in a hole...stop digging.
31
This situations is arguably more dangerous than the the Cold War. During the Cold War, the joint victory over Nazism was still fresh in everyone's mind. Now Putin accuses the West of supporting it.
I also read that a Russian bomber recently intercepted by RAF fighter jets was carrying a nuclear missile. I'm not against supporting Ukraine but Putin is very unpredictable, and so we need to carefully weigh that the costs of this support are not going to end up making the world a much more dangerous place.
I also read that a Russian bomber recently intercepted by RAF fighter jets was carrying a nuclear missile. I'm not against supporting Ukraine but Putin is very unpredictable, and so we need to carefully weigh that the costs of this support are not going to end up making the world a much more dangerous place.
2
It is no accident that there are many more intercepts of Russian military aircraft by western countries as Russia probes our resolve. Putin believe that the west has no backbone, that we are not willing to suffer for our point of view. He is very willing to make ordinary Russian people suffer, regardless of their actual point of view. Putin's concern is certainly a desire to restore Russia's standing and a sense of nationalism, but he is also concerned about maintaining his personal grip on power as the head of a vast criminal empire. Criminals don't and never will give up power voluntarily for the alternative for them once they are out of power is bleak. If Russia is not strongly confronted now expect a continuing series of showdowns and brinksmanship. From Putin's standpoint he has no alternative and he views his adversaries as weak.
37
'He is very willing to make ordinary Russian people suffer, regardless of their actual point of view.'
And here is where we differ completely from them.
Here, as the war grinds on far in away lands, thousands of miles away, we go on enjoying life, without even a whiff of gun-smoke in the air. Life goes on merrily while over 'there', they suffer and they die. Most of us are not even burdened with any extra 'war tax' to fight the wars.
Remember Bush urging Americans after 9/11 to 'go shopping'? That's the way a war needs to be fought, not by making us at home miserable and constantly being reminded of a war far away from home, where we might be engaged in some 'cleanup operations' for the good of our country.
And here is where we differ completely from them.
Here, as the war grinds on far in away lands, thousands of miles away, we go on enjoying life, without even a whiff of gun-smoke in the air. Life goes on merrily while over 'there', they suffer and they die. Most of us are not even burdened with any extra 'war tax' to fight the wars.
Remember Bush urging Americans after 9/11 to 'go shopping'? That's the way a war needs to be fought, not by making us at home miserable and constantly being reminded of a war far away from home, where we might be engaged in some 'cleanup operations' for the good of our country.
Goodness, yes! The one thing we don't want is a Ukraine that is able to defend itself! Better to rely on Putin's generosity and sense of fairness. That should work out very well.
19
So what are you suggesting? Let's say, we support Ukraine in a way that let's them blow the seperatists and covert russian forces out of the water. The next thing you would get, is a large scale, open invasion by Russia. How will you meet that? There simply is no military solution. If Russia willing to go rogue, there just isn't much we can do. Despite Russia's awful behavior, it's best to keep cool. Do remember that Crimea was always considered core russian ground. It would have been better, if Khrushchev had never gifted Crimea to the Ukraine. Just keep the sanctions going at the current level, and don't go looking for a solution where there is none.
Obama should either give the Ukrainians what they need to defend themselves, or capitulate. His current policy, like his policy in Syria, is designed to prolong the agony of the people involved to no good end. Contrary to what NY Times readers want to believe, Mr. Putin has no intention of stopping with eastern Ukraine, and our Polish and Baltic allies see this very clearly. The only logic Putin understands is KGB logic. He will only stop when he's forced to stop. Give the Ukrainian Army what it needs to bloody his nose, and let him explain all those dead Russian boys to the Russian people.
36
The Times still acts as if there was no US-backed coup on Russia's doorstep, with the obvious goal of rolling Ukraine into NATO and subjecting its people to an IMF Riot while ejecting Russia's Black Fleet from Crimea.
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/06/nyt-still-pretends-no-coup-in-ukra...
This is absurd, and especially so given how the mainstream corporate media was part of the lie factory that helped gin up the Iraq War.
This isn't journalism. This isn't well-informed analysis. This is dripping with propaganda - the kind that precedes needless wars that line the pockets of bankers and arms manufacturers.
Is that the goal?
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/06/nyt-still-pretends-no-coup-in-ukra...
This is absurd, and especially so given how the mainstream corporate media was part of the lie factory that helped gin up the Iraq War.
This isn't journalism. This isn't well-informed analysis. This is dripping with propaganda - the kind that precedes needless wars that line the pockets of bankers and arms manufacturers.
Is that the goal?
95
I participated in the movement in Poland which eventually led to the fall of the Soviet Union and disintegration of the 20th century version of the Russian empire. Now, some Russian leaders, President Putin in particular, have difficulties with accepting this new reality. They bully the neighbors and blackmail the West in their unlawful actions with the purpose of regaining the lost territory and spheres of influence.
According to your logic, in my tiny contribution to the fall of the Soviet Union I was manipulated by the “US-backed forces“ and consequently, Russia’s aspirations to reestablish its imperial status are legitimate and we should not interfere. Did it ever occurred that simply Ukrainians do not want to be Russia’s vassals anymore, regardless what you, the US and NATO think about it?
According to your logic, in my tiny contribution to the fall of the Soviet Union I was manipulated by the “US-backed forces“ and consequently, Russia’s aspirations to reestablish its imperial status are legitimate and we should not interfere. Did it ever occurred that simply Ukrainians do not want to be Russia’s vassals anymore, regardless what you, the US and NATO think about it?
2
You are simply using readily available Russian propaganda to slander the 95% of moderate, democratic-minded Ukrainians with the 5% that identify with the extreme right. You can slander any country by claiming they are dominated by a small, radical faction of the far-right. Only if you were speaking about Putin's Russia would you actually be correct.
1
Everyone is ready to buy into the Russian propaganda. It's easier to assume the CIA has its fingers in everything than the truth, which is that a nation wants to be free and live under the rule of law.
What worries me is the parallel between Putin’s actions today and Hitler’s actions in 1938 against Poland: the talk of recuing Russian minorities, the phony border incidents, and the Russian army soldiers “on vacation in Ukraine” who just happened to have uniforms and arms available.
It appears that Putin re-read the history books and is following the Nazi script in a more slow and measured manner while the West carefully responds with sanctions that are obviously working. It is not a short-term solution but it will work.
It appears that Putin re-read the history books and is following the Nazi script in a more slow and measured manner while the West carefully responds with sanctions that are obviously working. It is not a short-term solution but it will work.
145
What should worry you are the parallels to the US-backed overthrow of the Shah in Iran, or any one of several quite nasty wars in Central America.
Those who perpetually invoke Chamberlain and Nazis are skipping over a great deal of post WW2 history in which the United States fomented coups, assassinated leaders, and killed millions of civilians deliberately, in Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, and now Syria and Libya [if indirectly].
Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it, but that just doesn't mean cherry-picking the history that perpetually casts the other side as the Dark Side.
The US and the neocons are the aggressors here. Russia has been basically playing defense - and the neocons know it.
Those who perpetually invoke Chamberlain and Nazis are skipping over a great deal of post WW2 history in which the United States fomented coups, assassinated leaders, and killed millions of civilians deliberately, in Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, and now Syria and Libya [if indirectly].
Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it, but that just doesn't mean cherry-picking the history that perpetually casts the other side as the Dark Side.
The US and the neocons are the aggressors here. Russia has been basically playing defense - and the neocons know it.
5
You are way off base and do not understand the conflict at all. These two oblasts, Donetsk and Lugansk want independence. They don't want to be part of Russia and they don't want to be ruled by Kiev and have rules of the EU and IMF imposed on them. They want out of that deal. They want to be left alone to run their own oblasts their way. Yes they are closer to Russia than to the EU or W. Ukraine. But it is independence they seek, and the efforts to kill and conquer them is a project of the Kiev government which is run by people from W. Ukraine. The US does NOT understand what is happening as it only talk to Kiev government. It needs to talk to the leaders in Donetsk and Lugansk as well. We should not blindly fulfill every request from Kiev, especially not one that wants more powerful weapons to subdue any opposition to it.
2
Parallel???
The Poles were NOT killing Germans and Hitler was interested in World War 2 and ethnic cleansing (genocide) using the faked attacks (Germans dressed as Poles to create a 'casus belli' where as Putin is reacting to a murderous coup that destroyed a democracy and plunged an nation into civil war with most of the killing coming from our 'good guys'.
The real Nazis are in the Ukraine; they wear SS regalia and talk about exterminating the 'Russians' who are their own fellow Ukrainians. The Ukrainian army mostly switched sides when sent east and so the 'good guy's' need private armies, 'Freikorps' Nazis and ex Blackwater hired killers to spearhead their attacks on civilian targets.
This is the US starting another Syrian this time in Europe and using Nazis as the proxies. Nothing about the Oligarch Poroshenko or Hunter Bidens position in charge of Ukraine energy resources is printed here. So your prejudice and lies get help from the same propaganda set up that gave us Iraq, Libya, Syria. Vietnam and millions of 'lesser' human being getting murdered (we love our psycho killers like 'Sniper Kyle' (whose death was poetic justice in it's manner).
'It appears that Putin re-read the history books and is following the Nazi script' you say. Why would he do that when he is fighting Nazi's. And if the Rusians are so wrong why are they not slaughtering civilians in the Crimea like the Ukraine Government we support does?? Perhaps because we are on the wrong side!
The Poles were NOT killing Germans and Hitler was interested in World War 2 and ethnic cleansing (genocide) using the faked attacks (Germans dressed as Poles to create a 'casus belli' where as Putin is reacting to a murderous coup that destroyed a democracy and plunged an nation into civil war with most of the killing coming from our 'good guys'.
The real Nazis are in the Ukraine; they wear SS regalia and talk about exterminating the 'Russians' who are their own fellow Ukrainians. The Ukrainian army mostly switched sides when sent east and so the 'good guy's' need private armies, 'Freikorps' Nazis and ex Blackwater hired killers to spearhead their attacks on civilian targets.
This is the US starting another Syrian this time in Europe and using Nazis as the proxies. Nothing about the Oligarch Poroshenko or Hunter Bidens position in charge of Ukraine energy resources is printed here. So your prejudice and lies get help from the same propaganda set up that gave us Iraq, Libya, Syria. Vietnam and millions of 'lesser' human being getting murdered (we love our psycho killers like 'Sniper Kyle' (whose death was poetic justice in it's manner).
'It appears that Putin re-read the history books and is following the Nazi script' you say. Why would he do that when he is fighting Nazi's. And if the Rusians are so wrong why are they not slaughtering civilians in the Crimea like the Ukraine Government we support does?? Perhaps because we are on the wrong side!
4
Putin suffers from a Napoleon complex, and must be contained. However, the majority of Russians are good, civilized people and don't deserve to be dragged into a world war by Putin and our own reactionaries.
15
I think you've got the matter backwards.
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/24/nyt-is-lost-in-its-ukraine-propaga...
It was a US official caught on tape discussing who the next leader of a country on Russia's doorstep should be - not the reverse.
"The Grand Chessboard" was written by one of Mr. Obama's hawkish advisers
It is available in Russian.
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/24/nyt-is-lost-in-its-ukraine-propaga...
It was a US official caught on tape discussing who the next leader of a country on Russia's doorstep should be - not the reverse.
"The Grand Chessboard" was written by one of Mr. Obama's hawkish advisers
It is available in Russian.
1
So were the Russians under Stalin; the idea that the majority of Russians are peaceful -- even if they are -- is irrelevant. They have no say in what is happening.
The majority of Russians well remember repressions (which were in Russia for 60 years - three generations of people - from beginning of 1920's to the middle of 1980's.
The majority of Russia know (from their parents/grandparents) that that in order to survive they need not to discuss political things except in their kitchens and in a very low voice.
This FEAR didn't go away. It was just hidden somewhere, even now...
Russians are not good - they just are very afraid, now mostly subconsciously, - what happens next.
Will Putin build concentration camps around Russia and begin the Great Bloody Purge of hundreds of thousands and millions?
Will they die or be able to flee Russia?
Noone knows.
The majority of Russia know (from their parents/grandparents) that that in order to survive they need not to discuss political things except in their kitchens and in a very low voice.
This FEAR didn't go away. It was just hidden somewhere, even now...
Russians are not good - they just are very afraid, now mostly subconsciously, - what happens next.
Will Putin build concentration camps around Russia and begin the Great Bloody Purge of hundreds of thousands and millions?
Will they die or be able to flee Russia?
Noone knows.
1
The Libertarian support for Edward Snowden's betrayal of NATO to Mr. Putin in the months leading up to Putin's incursions of Crimea and Ukraine should factor in to the evaluation of the careers of several American politicians when it comes time to pick a Republican candidate.
2
Bipartisan support for warmongering, deficit spending, and shredding the Bill of Rights should factor into the evaluation of both major political parties by American voters, but happily for the duopoly and the Deep State - most Americans are just ill-informed enough to believe that Russia made "incursions" into Ukraine each of the half a dozen times it has been claimed in the MSM without a shred of solid evidence.
How easily people are tricked into wars -and how soon after major ones widely derided as disastrous!
How easily people are tricked into wars -and how soon after major ones widely derided as disastrous!
Absolutely. A true Patriot like Rand Paul deserves the nomination in 2016. Meanwhile, Snowden deserved the Nobel Peace Prize. Certainly more than the piece of garbage in the White House who received same. Please help me understand again how what Russia does in Ukraine IS ANY OF OUR BUSINESS? And again, help me understand how it's different from our own drone campaign of terror in various middle eastern countries and Pakistan - countries against whom our Congress has not declared war?
1
Putin has revealed his true colors. He is ex-KGB. He is cold and calculating. He dreams of restoring the imperialistic Russian Empire of old. For those who don't know the history, go read up on it and you will see that the strategy he is currently using in Ukraine is a centuries old one - and a favorite of the Russian empire. Putin is willing to sacrifice his people, his current economy for his long term objectives. He is betting that the west doesn't have the stomach for prolonged sanctions, and most definitely not war.
The only way to stop someone like that is to confront it directly - militarily. Failure to do so will put all current world leaders as modern day Chamberlains.
The only way to stop someone like that is to confront it directly - militarily. Failure to do so will put all current world leaders as modern day Chamberlains.
31
So, will Canada be leading the fight?
11
Chamberlain was repudiated only after things had gone so far that tens of millions were killed in setting things right. With Obama as our leader, we are in the same situation:
Land grabs by Putin? No problem!
Iranians threatening obliteration of a US ally? No problem!
Iranians developing a nuclear weapon and intercontinental delivery system (i.e., a delivery system not necessary for obliterating Israel)? No problem!
Land grabs by Putin? No problem!
Iranians threatening obliteration of a US ally? No problem!
Iranians developing a nuclear weapon and intercontinental delivery system (i.e., a delivery system not necessary for obliterating Israel)? No problem!
1
This is complete nonsense. Putin does not, and has never advocated restoring the USSR although he certainly wishes to see Russia become a global power again.
It wasn't Putin who robbed Russia under Yeltsin, scurrying away with hundreds of billions to Britain or Israel.
It wasn't Putin who handed out cookies to those advocating the violent overthrow of an elected government on the other side of the planet.
It is the US/NATO that fomented the coup, that have been expanding all around Russias borders, all while supporting Islamist terrorists in Libya, Syria, and beyond.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but yours seems to depend on facts not in evidence, and indeed, contrary to the plain facts of the matter.
It wasn't Putin who robbed Russia under Yeltsin, scurrying away with hundreds of billions to Britain or Israel.
It wasn't Putin who handed out cookies to those advocating the violent overthrow of an elected government on the other side of the planet.
It is the US/NATO that fomented the coup, that have been expanding all around Russias borders, all while supporting Islamist terrorists in Libya, Syria, and beyond.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but yours seems to depend on facts not in evidence, and indeed, contrary to the plain facts of the matter.
The U.S. and Europe are unlikely to go to war over Ukraine, which after all is not a full member of NATO. It would be unfair to give Ukrainians a false sense of security by suggesting otherwise.
What the US, and more so the thus-far more reluctant western Europe states, can do is to ensure that the Putin regime pays an ever higher price -in terms of economic, political, and cultural sanctions- for continuing to violate Ukraine's sovereignty and to wreak violence upon the country.
And the western allies can strengthen the defenses of those countries which are full NATO members, so that the Russian oligarchs are less tempted to continue trying foreign mischief-making as a ruse to hide the incompetence of their domestic policies, by expanding their aggression beyond Ukraine to other ex-Soviet bloc countries.
If Putin wants another Cold War, the West can fight another one and win a second time (if it remembers what worked and did not work the first time).
What the US, and more so the thus-far more reluctant western Europe states, can do is to ensure that the Putin regime pays an ever higher price -in terms of economic, political, and cultural sanctions- for continuing to violate Ukraine's sovereignty and to wreak violence upon the country.
And the western allies can strengthen the defenses of those countries which are full NATO members, so that the Russian oligarchs are less tempted to continue trying foreign mischief-making as a ruse to hide the incompetence of their domestic policies, by expanding their aggression beyond Ukraine to other ex-Soviet bloc countries.
If Putin wants another Cold War, the West can fight another one and win a second time (if it remembers what worked and did not work the first time).
43
Have you even bothered to consider what Donetsk and Lugansk want? They don't want to be part of Russia, but they don't to be governed by Kiev. How about the US spend some time talking to them instead of talking only to Kiev? We really don't understand what is happening but we only listen to one side - we are not an even-handed broker in this situation.
'And the western allies can strengthen the defenses of those countries which are full NATO members'
And clearly it is win-win situation - it will be good for our arms industries too.
And clearly it is win-win situation - it will be good for our arms industries too.
1
Perhaps it is the NATO members themselves who are engaging in foreign mischief-making to distract their populations from the disastrous domestic policies that have gutted the economies of many European countries.
The separatists are not fighting in Kiev, but Ukrainian military is fighting and killing so far more than 5,000 people in East Ukraine, where the majority of people wish to have some form of autonomy. Russia is not fighting in New Mexico, Alaska or Hawaii trying to separate them from the United States, but the United States has been helping and arming the insurgents in Ukraine against the former democratically elected president. It seems it is quite OK for the United States to fight and arm insurgents thousands of miles away in Syria, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan, but Russia is not allowed to help the Russian speaking people next door in Ukraine.
Why is not the United States pushing for more meaningful negotiations? As you point out, the outlines of a negotiated settlement are quite clear. They are a Ukrainian federation in which pro-Russian provinces have relative autonomy and an assurance that Ukraine will not join NATO to form another Western base against Russia. Yet, if all that you have is a hammer everything else will look like a nail. Military conflicts have failed the United States and have only enriched a bunch of greedy warmongers and arms merchant. It is time the American people called for a change of policy and greater emphasis on peace making than war making.
Why is not the United States pushing for more meaningful negotiations? As you point out, the outlines of a negotiated settlement are quite clear. They are a Ukrainian federation in which pro-Russian provinces have relative autonomy and an assurance that Ukraine will not join NATO to form another Western base against Russia. Yet, if all that you have is a hammer everything else will look like a nail. Military conflicts have failed the United States and have only enriched a bunch of greedy warmongers and arms merchant. It is time the American people called for a change of policy and greater emphasis on peace making than war making.
121
Yes, yes, we know: The US and Russia, like the US and the USSR (or the US and Nazi Germany), are moral equivalents. Those of us who are not ignorant of history remember the defenders of Hitler and Uncle Joe and recognize their present-day equivalents
3
While I agree with your 2nd paragraph, I strongly disagree with the 1st one. There is no evidence the majority of occupied zones are in favor of joining Russia and there is no need to compare foreign policies of both USA and Russia, especially relying on old forgotten stories.
Putin is spreading blood, fire and misery in Ukraine and there is no way continental europeans should accept this without a protest. He is playing a game of "dare, dare-not" and each small victory pushes him to dare further.
I'm not supporting war but this dangerous game may lead us to bolder moves in the future.
Putin is spreading blood, fire and misery in Ukraine and there is no way continental europeans should accept this without a protest. He is playing a game of "dare, dare-not" and each small victory pushes him to dare further.
I'm not supporting war but this dangerous game may lead us to bolder moves in the future.
2
here is the statement of a Russian troll. If you have been opining on these matters everywhere, or reading without opining but paying attention to comments, there he/she is. This is why the "West" not only needs to send weapons most urgently, but also resurrect the Cold War propaganda campaign. Most importantly, open up bank records, and expose the thieving Russian elites for who they are. As causalties keep mounting in Russia, the message will fall on increasingly receptive ears, as it did during the Cold War proper.
3
One-sided events interpretation. Just try to take a detached view on several phrases from the article had to be read differently:
1."...against the Russian-backed rebels..." = against the ukrainians from Eastern regions of Ukraine.
2. "Mr. Putin Resumes His War in Ukraine" = Obama-warmonger uses his puppet Poroshenko to resume Kiev`s military forces attacks against Eastern Ukraine.
3."the United States and Europe should increase their aid to Ukraine" = USA+EU are supporting their new regime (pro western = anti-ukrainian, who cares about ordinary people) about year by money, military instructors, ammunition, propaganda, etc. but it still doesnt work. Need to increase the violence level of sanctions to prolong this conflict for many years.
4. "against Russian aggression" = against USA intervention around the World, with pretension to the World leadership (in prejudice of all other countries interests).
5. "the United States and its allies will actively use their good offices with Kiev" = :)) they have really good offices there )))
6. "But if the evidence continues to accumulate" = Despite anything, the needed "evidences" will be forged
7. "United States and Europe will be compelled to increase the cost" = the goal is to spend money, to to lay a foundation for increasing military costs and the existence of NATO. Another goal is to keep back Russia, the only potential force which can act independently from the USA.
Things looks differently from this side of the globe. )
1."...against the Russian-backed rebels..." = against the ukrainians from Eastern regions of Ukraine.
2. "Mr. Putin Resumes His War in Ukraine" = Obama-warmonger uses his puppet Poroshenko to resume Kiev`s military forces attacks against Eastern Ukraine.
3."the United States and Europe should increase their aid to Ukraine" = USA+EU are supporting their new regime (pro western = anti-ukrainian, who cares about ordinary people) about year by money, military instructors, ammunition, propaganda, etc. but it still doesnt work. Need to increase the violence level of sanctions to prolong this conflict for many years.
4. "against Russian aggression" = against USA intervention around the World, with pretension to the World leadership (in prejudice of all other countries interests).
5. "the United States and its allies will actively use their good offices with Kiev" = :)) they have really good offices there )))
6. "But if the evidence continues to accumulate" = Despite anything, the needed "evidences" will be forged
7. "United States and Europe will be compelled to increase the cost" = the goal is to spend money, to to lay a foundation for increasing military costs and the existence of NATO. Another goal is to keep back Russia, the only potential force which can act independently from the USA.
Things looks differently from this side of the globe. )
17
I currently live on "this side of the globe" as I make my home in Kiev, Ukraine. Ivan... you are a victim of the Russia propaganda if you really think the conflict in Eastern Ukraine is the result of USA/EU aggression. The Russian Federation has instigated this war every step of the way starting with their armed "annexation" of Crimea to their unabashed military operations in Eastern Ukraine (which included the downing of a civilian airliner).
You can change the perceptive of the article all you want but it doesn't change the facts.
You can change the perceptive of the article all you want but it doesn't change the facts.
1
Yes. The "only potential force that can act independently of the USA". Well, for one other, there is China, which doesn't have a record of lying about it's military intervening in other nations affairs. Or shooting down civilian airliners.
5. It's true it would be a grave error for the US and its allies to "use their good offices" to pressure Kiev to compromise with Russia. US advise to refrain from military action in Crimea for fear that it would lead to a full-scale Russian invasion proved to be the thing that simply gave more impetus for further Russian aggressiveness.
6. There is more than enough evidence to condemn the Russian neo-imperialist intervention in Ukraine and to extend and tighten sanctions as much as possible. Also Ukraine must be supplied with weapons to counter what is clearly a Russian undertaking.
7. It's humorous to read that "Russia is the only potential force which can act independently from the USA," but it's foolish not to recognize that it's Russia that is doing all it can to make sure that all its neighbors, near and far, do not ever act independently of Russia.
6. There is more than enough evidence to condemn the Russian neo-imperialist intervention in Ukraine and to extend and tighten sanctions as much as possible. Also Ukraine must be supplied with weapons to counter what is clearly a Russian undertaking.
7. It's humorous to read that "Russia is the only potential force which can act independently from the USA," but it's foolish not to recognize that it's Russia that is doing all it can to make sure that all its neighbors, near and far, do not ever act independently of Russia.
"Certainly the United States and Europe should increase their aid to Ukraine and explore ways to expand existing sanctions against Russia." Not "certainly". We can and and should stop intervening in Ukraine. We are doing more harm than good. There is no vital U.S. interest at stake. There is danger of a confrontation with Russia.
57
The Ukraine controls the gas pipelines that go into Europe. Of course it's always about oil. After the Ukraine there will be Romania, Poland, Czechoslovakia--which is next to the Ukraine. I hope you can understand what is going on now.
11
We already have confrontation with Russia. The question is whether you stand up to the bully or run away and hide.
16
Ukraine and its Russian speakers, like Czechoslovakia with its Suedeten Germans, is a small country, far, far away. Nothing here to worry about!
1
Determining what the government of Ukraine should look like is not a privilege for the Russian president to determine. For a generation, a Ukrainian unitary state didn't cause Russia to bat an eyelash. Now, Putin's propaganda machine is in full works, churning out lies and nonsense as fast as it can.
Whatever Putin wants, everybody elsse loses. The most stunning upset would be for Ukraine to withraw from the east, force the thugs to secede whether they like it or not, then work to create a NATO 'Partnership for Peace' plan that would lead to full membership. Putin's cruelty and stupidity would come home full force. Nobody else is responsible for this but him anyway.
Whatever Putin wants, everybody elsse loses. The most stunning upset would be for Ukraine to withraw from the east, force the thugs to secede whether they like it or not, then work to create a NATO 'Partnership for Peace' plan that would lead to full membership. Putin's cruelty and stupidity would come home full force. Nobody else is responsible for this but him anyway.
45
"Determining what the government of Ukraine should look like is not a privilege for the Russian president to determine."
But apparently it is very much the privilege for a bunch of 'within the beltway' neocons in conjunction with their clients and hirelings in other countries - come on down Victoria's not so secret secrets - everybody loves a hegemon.
But apparently it is very much the privilege for a bunch of 'within the beltway' neocons in conjunction with their clients and hirelings in other countries - come on down Victoria's not so secret secrets - everybody loves a hegemon.
From the very beginning of the armed conflict, it has been the Kiev coup regime -- perhaps junta would be a better term -- that has been firing missiles on civilian areas in the eastern Ukraine (with at least 5000 dead in the last year), a Kiev junta rife with neo-Nazi Russophobes.... How is a regime that fires missiles against its own people deserving of US support? Have our (mis)leaders in Washington gone over to the the "Dark Side"? Has the US now become the Evil Empire?
68
@ando arike
"Has the US now become the Evil Empire? "
Yes. And the new part of Star Wars will come out soon :))
"Has the US now become the Evil Empire? "
Yes. And the new part of Star Wars will come out soon :))
5
You have been watching too much Russia news broadcasts.
The rebels shot down the Malasian Airlines jet and have denied it. It is hard to believe anyting they say.
They have foced the Ukrainian governement to defend itself and build an army-a disorganized and poor army without a lot of capabilities.
All they have to do is lay down their arms and pariticpate in elections. They would probably win their region and be able to negotioate for more autonomy.
Instead they have "elected" to terrorize the region with war. Since they have taken up arms it has been easy for the Russian government whose aim is to destabilize Ukraine to assist with soldiers and arms.
Let Ukraine be free. The Ukrainians want to rid themselves of corruption. They want to rid themselves of Russian thuggery. Lets not forget that Stalin had hundreds of thousand of Ukrainians killed prior to WWII.
Russia has no right to invade Ukraine, no matter what government Ukraine chooses (I believe it is a democratic one to this point) it is none of Russia's business.
The rebels shot down the Malasian Airlines jet and have denied it. It is hard to believe anyting they say.
They have foced the Ukrainian governement to defend itself and build an army-a disorganized and poor army without a lot of capabilities.
All they have to do is lay down their arms and pariticpate in elections. They would probably win their region and be able to negotioate for more autonomy.
Instead they have "elected" to terrorize the region with war. Since they have taken up arms it has been easy for the Russian government whose aim is to destabilize Ukraine to assist with soldiers and arms.
Let Ukraine be free. The Ukrainians want to rid themselves of corruption. They want to rid themselves of Russian thuggery. Lets not forget that Stalin had hundreds of thousand of Ukrainians killed prior to WWII.
Russia has no right to invade Ukraine, no matter what government Ukraine chooses (I believe it is a democratic one to this point) it is none of Russia's business.
52
Who told that rebels shot down the jet??? Do you have any evidences or facts??? "Someone" from the west and USA promise to show the prove evidences of that till the beginning of 2015, where are they???
Everyone, who says that Russia do this do that, show the facts and then start accusing!
Everyone, who says that Russia do this do that, show the facts and then start accusing!
Admitting guilt is not an easy thing, the Japanese and the Germans know this better. Ukraine is not a monolithic country. Most of the eastern part of Ukraine is leaning eastward, that's why they always voted for pro-Russian parties, the opposite with the western part of Ukraine, where they are leaning towards Europe.
The US embassy in Kiev orchestrated a coup that resulted in the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Ukraine that was pro-Russian. Now, Russia sees her allies in a neighboring country, and those people who are ethnic Russians and Russian speakers, persecuted and hounded, and Americans are contemplating to make that country join NATO, what are the Russians supposed to do.... Good job the Russians acted that way, it's time for someone stood up and stopped America.
After this American fiasco, I doubt America will go to another country and do the same. What Russia is doing now, is good for world peace in the long run.
The US embassy in Kiev orchestrated a coup that resulted in the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Ukraine that was pro-Russian. Now, Russia sees her allies in a neighboring country, and those people who are ethnic Russians and Russian speakers, persecuted and hounded, and Americans are contemplating to make that country join NATO, what are the Russians supposed to do.... Good job the Russians acted that way, it's time for someone stood up and stopped America.
After this American fiasco, I doubt America will go to another country and do the same. What Russia is doing now, is good for world peace in the long run.
47
Your beloved belligerent petty dictator Putin may just invade Latvia or Lithuania to further promote world peace.
24
It's better for the American embassies in Latvia and Lithuania not to engage in violent coups..... That certainly won't give Putin the upper moral ground to invade those countries.
7
He won't invade a NATO member nation. He's more clever than that. That is why he victimizes the Ukraine. Because he knows he can. The US should stay out. There's nothing they can do to make the situation better for Ukrainians. Take the long view. We can come back to the Ukraine another day.
1
Vladimir Putin is perfectly capable of stirring up paranoid propaganda against the West and will do so regardless of whether the US provides military support to Ukraine or not. The argument that we shouldn't intervene because it would confirm his "claims of Western aggression" is daft. By the same logic we shouldn't intervene anywhere at all. ISIS? Sit back and let it happen - wouldn't want to give grist to their propaganda mill.
Intervention in Ukraine would not be a question of "punishing Mr. Putin" as this editorial suggests but of protecting a sovereign nation's right not to be invaded by its neighbor. And of preventing another Bosnia style massacre happening on Europe's doorstep.
Intervention in Ukraine would not be a question of "punishing Mr. Putin" as this editorial suggests but of protecting a sovereign nation's right not to be invaded by its neighbor. And of preventing another Bosnia style massacre happening on Europe's doorstep.
48
But would supplying them with arms "protect" a sovereign nation's right not to be invaded? I don't think so. If the West, i.e. NATO, is not going to go in and make Putin stop, then they are wasting lives and treasure. It won't work, that's the worst criticism one can make of the move. Sure, right is on our side, but so what?
Would it prevent a "My Lai" styled massacre or "Abu Ghraib" style torture of captives? Would it protect a sovereign Iraq's "right not to be invaded".
Would it protect a hegemon's right to use military force to kill anyone anywhere and invade any country anytime under any pretext. Would it maintain the modern fiction that economic war is not war and blockades and sanctions are totally legitimate, no matter what damage they do to people and property?
Just asking.
Would it protect a hegemon's right to use military force to kill anyone anywhere and invade any country anytime under any pretext. Would it maintain the modern fiction that economic war is not war and blockades and sanctions are totally legitimate, no matter what damage they do to people and property?
Just asking.
Today NYT quotes the report advising providing lethal weapons:
“One of the best ways to deter Russia from supporting the rebels in taking more territory and stepping up the conflict is to increase the cost that the Russians or their surrogates would incur,” Ms. Flournoy said in an interview.
Nothing I know about the Russians and Putin's circle indicate to me that increasing the cost to them would deter them. Russians love to sacrifice - that is what they know, that is what brings them together. Putin would love nothing more than to be able to say Russian volunteers / free fighters have been killed by weapons supplied by NATO.
There are plenty of Russian men ready to die in eastern Ukraine. More Russians dying there is no going to create some anti-Putin movement inside Russia, particularly if they are killed by weapons supplied by NATO.
Putin wants the conflict to escalate.
In pure military terms it is obvious Ukrainian sovereignty cannot be restored by force. We have to play the long game and outlast Putin and his cronies, not help him stir up more Russian nationalism using the boogie man of NATO.
Ukraine's best weapon is reform and a strong democracy - about that Thomas Friedman was right on target. Let's pour economic aid and expertise into Ukraine, teach their lawmakers, bureaucrats and businessmen the American way of doing things.
“One of the best ways to deter Russia from supporting the rebels in taking more territory and stepping up the conflict is to increase the cost that the Russians or their surrogates would incur,” Ms. Flournoy said in an interview.
Nothing I know about the Russians and Putin's circle indicate to me that increasing the cost to them would deter them. Russians love to sacrifice - that is what they know, that is what brings them together. Putin would love nothing more than to be able to say Russian volunteers / free fighters have been killed by weapons supplied by NATO.
There are plenty of Russian men ready to die in eastern Ukraine. More Russians dying there is no going to create some anti-Putin movement inside Russia, particularly if they are killed by weapons supplied by NATO.
Putin wants the conflict to escalate.
In pure military terms it is obvious Ukrainian sovereignty cannot be restored by force. We have to play the long game and outlast Putin and his cronies, not help him stir up more Russian nationalism using the boogie man of NATO.
Ukraine's best weapon is reform and a strong democracy - about that Thomas Friedman was right on target. Let's pour economic aid and expertise into Ukraine, teach their lawmakers, bureaucrats and businessmen the American way of doing things.
6
Those "Russian volunteers / free fighters" are actually elite stepnaz forces, without insignia, which is "Putin's way".
I agree though, let's help Ukraine economically and politically to remake their nation. However, to do that their nation has to survive. I do not claim to know the solution to stop the fighting and stop Putin's aggression. Obviously we want to avoid direct military confrontation between Putin's Russia and NATO if possible. Putin however may have a different idea, actually seeking this confrontation in the belief that he can win it. As history taught us, avoiding military confrontation at all cost today may lead to much bigger and much more bloody confrontation over time. Given our feeble/nonexistent response to Putin's shameless aggression in Crimea the opportunity to deter Putin from further aggression without military action may have been lost.
I agree though, let's help Ukraine economically and politically to remake their nation. However, to do that their nation has to survive. I do not claim to know the solution to stop the fighting and stop Putin's aggression. Obviously we want to avoid direct military confrontation between Putin's Russia and NATO if possible. Putin however may have a different idea, actually seeking this confrontation in the belief that he can win it. As history taught us, avoiding military confrontation at all cost today may lead to much bigger and much more bloody confrontation over time. Given our feeble/nonexistent response to Putin's shameless aggression in Crimea the opportunity to deter Putin from further aggression without military action may have been lost.
17
This is one crazy op-ed. Since when is it our right to appease Putin by negotiating a carve-up of the country he's been trying to swallow?
No sense of the extremely urgency of the current military and economic situation in Ukraine, the significant moves to reform the democratically-elected President and Parliament are making, or the threat to the entire European security apparatus Putin represents. If Putin gets his way in Ukraine, he will move on the Baltics, who are NATO members. They've been screaming about this for months.
Do we want to appease a security apparatus kleptocracy or support an emerging civil society that has been willing to die to become a transparent, European values based nation?
You show your ignorance about Ukraine, NY Times. Shame on you.
No sense of the extremely urgency of the current military and economic situation in Ukraine, the significant moves to reform the democratically-elected President and Parliament are making, or the threat to the entire European security apparatus Putin represents. If Putin gets his way in Ukraine, he will move on the Baltics, who are NATO members. They've been screaming about this for months.
Do we want to appease a security apparatus kleptocracy or support an emerging civil society that has been willing to die to become a transparent, European values based nation?
You show your ignorance about Ukraine, NY Times. Shame on you.
20
Well, you have a point, but do you recommend that NATO should go to war with Putin's Russia over Ukraine? If not what is it your are recommending?
6
Why you think Putin invade Baltic state? They bankrupt politically and financial. I born in Lithuania and I now what I talking about. And Krim always belong to Russian Empire. It's never officially Ukrainian, it's always Russian. And first open history book and after blame some budy.
You write: "Mr. Putin has not made clear what he is trying to achieve."
But why not acknowledge his objective as, you also write,
"Russian officials have suggested that Moscow ... seeks a Ukrainian federation in which the pro-Russian provinces would have relative autonomy, along with assurances that Ukraine will not move to join NATO."
But why not acknowledge his objective as, you also write,
"Russian officials have suggested that Moscow ... seeks a Ukrainian federation in which the pro-Russian provinces would have relative autonomy, along with assurances that Ukraine will not move to join NATO."
19
As Putin refused to state his objective despite having been asked multiple times this is all speculation. He may have much more dangerous goals, among others wanting to test how far he can push a war weary free world and NATO. We should remember that in a similar situation the Europeans threw the Sudetenland to Hitler to appease him and try to satisfy his appetite for aggression, dismembering a sovereign state, Czechoslovakia. It did not appease him and did not avert WWII and 20+ million deaths. The situation with Putin today is eerily similar to 1938. We have to keep in mind that showing weakness is not the way to subdue aggressive bullies, like Mr. Putin is. Standing up to them is. As a minimum Western Europe has to re-arm in a hurry.
9
Just sayin'................
What if we Americans were assisting Mexicans who were fighting for Autonomy from Mexico city to be closely aligned with America while the Russians were encouraging Mexico city to join an alliance with Moscow?
Uh, that's different huh?
Fences make good neighbors, especially when you stay on your side of it.
What if we Americans were assisting Mexicans who were fighting for Autonomy from Mexico city to be closely aligned with America while the Russians were encouraging Mexico city to join an alliance with Moscow?
Uh, that's different huh?
Fences make good neighbors, especially when you stay on your side of it.
14
If the CIA (following an oligarchical coup in Washington which had emasculated Congress and suspended the Constitution) was instigating and supplying squat team armies of saboteurs and assassins to terrorize northern Mexico into breaking away to join the USA, that would certainly not be an example of either good fences or good neighbors. Not to praise current US immigration policies, but the wall on the southern US border, unlike Europe's iron curtain (and the current Russian regime are the heirs to the creators of that militarized border) was constructed to keep foreigners from coming in, not to prevent local citizens from leaving to escape oppression.
7
Except Russia depends Ukraine's wheat like we depend on Canada's. Let these cleptocracy's settle their own differences.
Putin is doing exactly what brought about the demise of the Soviet Union.
Mindless expansion for it's own sake, and attempting to either ignore or write new laws of economics.
One the ruble became convertible and Russia had to compete economically with the entire world neither of those things are viable.
His idea that the West will be intimidated by flying turboprop long range bombers on our periphery is laughable. His actions resemble the late Kim Jong Il, banging the nuclear weapons drum to secure more attention and aid.
Putin is merely hoisting himself by his own petard.
Mindless expansion for it's own sake, and attempting to either ignore or write new laws of economics.
One the ruble became convertible and Russia had to compete economically with the entire world neither of those things are viable.
His idea that the West will be intimidated by flying turboprop long range bombers on our periphery is laughable. His actions resemble the late Kim Jong Il, banging the nuclear weapons drum to secure more attention and aid.
Putin is merely hoisting himself by his own petard.
17
It is not that simple. Putin has and can in the future cause a lot of harm and grief to Europe and to the whole world. He will lose at the end, just like Hitler lost, but that may be a long time from now, especially if Europe refuses the take the existential threat from Putin seriously. Europe has to re-arm in a hurry and get ready to fight. Being ready to fight is the only way to avoid the fight. Keep saying that you do not want to fight to a bully and he will keep beating you up.
7
"Keep saying that you do not want to fight to a bully and he will keep beating you up."
Maybe we want to cut off the bully's access to funds. After all, if a bully can no longer afford his gym membership he becomes flabby and out of condition.
Economic sanction can have have their consequences.
Maybe we want to cut off the bully's access to funds. After all, if a bully can no longer afford his gym membership he becomes flabby and out of condition.
Economic sanction can have have their consequences.
2
Rather than "Putin's War', this is the West's attempt to peel away Ukraine from Russia, and anyone can see that the fascist coup we supported in Ukraine to install the current strongmen. We supported the ouster of Ukraine's democratically elected President, even after he had already reached agreement with the peaceful protesters, who came out annually, like the flowers in Ukraine.
Now, as predicted, the West wants to arm up Ukraine, blames Russia for violating the ceasefire, although Ukraine admitted it was not going to stop the violence and pushed onwards with military.
Oh, and the gas prices are hurting Russia. Amazing how we can do something about those when we really want to.
Wake up, citizens of America. At least the Russians know their news is propaganda. Seems like we are still lapping it up over here.
Follow the money if you want to know who really is stirring the pot in Ukraine.
Now, as predicted, the West wants to arm up Ukraine, blames Russia for violating the ceasefire, although Ukraine admitted it was not going to stop the violence and pushed onwards with military.
Oh, and the gas prices are hurting Russia. Amazing how we can do something about those when we really want to.
Wake up, citizens of America. At least the Russians know their news is propaganda. Seems like we are still lapping it up over here.
Follow the money if you want to know who really is stirring the pot in Ukraine.
102
Ukraine and its Russian speakers, like Czechoslovakia with its Suedeten Germans, is a small country, far, far away. Nothing here to worry about!
2
Not true. The Russians don't know that their news is propaganda--they line up behind Putin because they believe his 24/7 propaganda. Putin's been able to keep them pacified with a pretty good economy based on high oil prices. Now these are tanking and he needs to divert the attention of the great masses to a foreign enemy, just as the tzars used to do.
We are not 'doing' anything to cause the low gas prices--yours is an idiotic conspiracy phantasy. Dream on.
We are not 'doing' anything to cause the low gas prices--yours is an idiotic conspiracy phantasy. Dream on.
2
There is a huge difference in terms of the worry factor. In 1935 the US army was smaller than that of Romania. Today, the US spends more on its military than the next ten nations combined.
The blood is on Western hands. If Ukraine stops attacking it's separatist regions, the bloodshed stops. It's that simple.
Russian is not expansionist in Ukraine. It it was, it would have tanks and troops 200km West on the Dnieper River by now, instead of selling energy to Ukraine.
Russian speaking Ukraine is to Russia, as Israel is to the US - nonnegotiable. The sooner Neocons wake up and realize this, the faster peace will come to the region. Ukraine can just as well be a corrupt welfare-baby of the West without it's Russian speaking areas as with them. As an American I am appalled by our lying obfuscation of the realities on the ground and move toward interference there, it's obscene.
Russian is not expansionist in Ukraine. It it was, it would have tanks and troops 200km West on the Dnieper River by now, instead of selling energy to Ukraine.
Russian speaking Ukraine is to Russia, as Israel is to the US - nonnegotiable. The sooner Neocons wake up and realize this, the faster peace will come to the region. Ukraine can just as well be a corrupt welfare-baby of the West without it's Russian speaking areas as with them. As an American I am appalled by our lying obfuscation of the realities on the ground and move toward interference there, it's obscene.
83
It is that simple in the minds if Putin's paid propagandists only, who could not care less of the facts.
11
I wonder what part of the "reality on the ground" in Crimea you happened to notice. How is it "obfuscation" to be aware of the difference between how Putin dealt with self-determination there and self-determination in Chechnya?
10
For the U.S. this is another case of the wrong war, in the wrong place at the wrong time. When will we learn?
111
? -- "There is definitely potential for negotiations there." (regarding Nato)
But what about accepting Ukraine's right to choose its own destiny and path?
But what about accepting Ukraine's right to choose its own destiny and path?
28
And the same right for those people who want to speak their own language, and have their own culture. If those in Kiev who -in spite of being the first ones being called "Russian"- desperately want to be something else have their way, those who want theirs should also have theirs.
And that's what they voted for and decided.
But Mr. Obama doesn't like it because, without the Crimea, Russia is not completely blocked in - and without DonBass (Donetsk and so), Ukraine is even more bankrupt.
And that's what they voted for and decided.
But Mr. Obama doesn't like it because, without the Crimea, Russia is not completely blocked in - and without DonBass (Donetsk and so), Ukraine is even more bankrupt.
2
That right will be trampled on. But there really is no way out. Russia decided, that rather than watch Ukraine switch from the russian tariff block to the european tariff block, they would interfere with military means. Now if the West helps Ukraine in this affair, what we get is a proxy war. If the so called seperatists get crushed with modern weapons, Russia will not stand idly by. They would replace their covert operations with an open assault, bringing total devastation to Ukraine. The sanctions were a good idea. And I would be willing to speculate, that if the low oil price wouldn't be hitting Russia so hard, the US would have brought pressure on the Saudis for them to relent. But it turns out, that the oligarchs in Russia really have no say. They're just a bunch of serfs, whos fate depends on the good will of Putin.
I think the best thing to do in this frustrating situation, is to change nothing. Don't help Ukraine, and don't increase the sanctions. Just keep slow-cooking Russia at the current temperature.
I think the best thing to do in this frustrating situation, is to change nothing. Don't help Ukraine, and don't increase the sanctions. Just keep slow-cooking Russia at the current temperature.
Question: What does Russia, Iran and ISIS have in common?? Answer-- they all yearn for to relive their past glory days by becoming mighty empires that made the world tremble with fear once again. Putin seized the Crimea last year and he hasn't given up on his ultimate dream of having his tanks roll into Kiev unopposed because he knows no one is going to stop him.
14
Sorry, Sharon, you have bad eyesight:
The actors here are desert potentates who fooled the USA into senseless wars - don't forget who armed the men who flew their attack on New York and Pentagon!
ISIL is a result of all the wrong policies the USA have carried out in the Middle East since WWII.
And Russia feels rightly threatened by a hostile force creeping up his backyard. Were the USA not the same when the USSR planned to put missiles into Cuba?
And if you think there were any tanks rolling into the Crimea, you are wrong in two ways:
a) there were Russian troops legally, through treaties on navy bases;
b) when a people feels threatened by an illegitimate regime which decrees that their culture and language should be banned, and they vote to secede - that is their right! - more than for a tax on a few tea bags.
In short: You have only read propaganda in every respect.
There was no annexation.
And the fighting there is one for liberty.
The actors here are desert potentates who fooled the USA into senseless wars - don't forget who armed the men who flew their attack on New York and Pentagon!
ISIL is a result of all the wrong policies the USA have carried out in the Middle East since WWII.
And Russia feels rightly threatened by a hostile force creeping up his backyard. Were the USA not the same when the USSR planned to put missiles into Cuba?
And if you think there were any tanks rolling into the Crimea, you are wrong in two ways:
a) there were Russian troops legally, through treaties on navy bases;
b) when a people feels threatened by an illegitimate regime which decrees that their culture and language should be banned, and they vote to secede - that is their right! - more than for a tax on a few tea bags.
In short: You have only read propaganda in every respect.
There was no annexation.
And the fighting there is one for liberty.
11
To what end? We have no idea what Putin's endgame is, or what negotiations would focus on.
And, honestly, I do not think I could care less what General Breedlove wants, if what he is proposing means more war creep.
Not everything in the world demands a military solution. In fact, almost nothing does.
Just stop.
And, honestly, I do not think I could care less what General Breedlove wants, if what he is proposing means more war creep.
Not everything in the world demands a military solution. In fact, almost nothing does.
Just stop.
33
Putin's endgame is very clear. He stated his goal at the very beginning and it never changed since. He wants an unaligned Ukraine which will not be openly hostile to Russia. His preferred method for achieving that is broad autonomy for pro-Russian Eastern part of Ukraine, so that the easterners could veto any anti-Russian turn in Ukraine's foreign policy. Very simple really. And very reasonable too.
5
After all, Ukraine and its Russian speakers, like Czechoslovakia with its Suedeten Germans, is a small country, far, far away. Nothing here to worry about!
3
Remember when the Soviets invaded Prague & the president said "what a shame" & the press wrang their hands a few days & everyone felt sad for the People who lived in Prague? I suggest we do that know with Ukraine. We don't want a proxy war with Russia bc Nukes.
Yes, it's sad, but nukes are catastrophic so please stop asking for more. What we did in 1968 could still work. We can't cover all the countries the press & the Neocons want. We need to be ready for a Nato country invasion.
Yes, it's sad, but nukes are catastrophic so please stop asking for more. What we did in 1968 could still work. We can't cover all the countries the press & the Neocons want. We need to be ready for a Nato country invasion.
4
By leaving Ukraine to deal with this on its own, you ARE asking for more nukes. More nukes all over the world. Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear arsenal in exchange to promised that its territorial integrity would be respected. Those promises were made by, inter alia, the US, the UK and Russia. Every country in the world now knows that the only way to assure territorial integrity is by acquiring and keeping nuclear weapons.
15
Your are correct. This is why Iran wants nuclear weapons.
1
We already pulled an 1968 by saying that the Budapest Protocol, which we signed, is not a "treaty" hence we did not have to do anything when Putin (another signatory) violated it. I bet our negotiators "forgot" to enlighten the Ukrainians about this minor detail at the time. Had Ukraine not given up their nuclear weapons Putin would not have dared attacking them.
As far as Putin invading a NATO country: it may happen earlier than you think. Especially if Europe keeps ignoring the obvious existential threat and fails to re-arm in a hurry. They cannot keep counting on the US alone for their defense.
As far as Putin invading a NATO country: it may happen earlier than you think. Especially if Europe keeps ignoring the obvious existential threat and fails to re-arm in a hurry. They cannot keep counting on the US alone for their defense.
8
I'm sorry but the fear mongering is going nuts. The potential cost of increasing support for Ukraine is ridiculous. The cost is being felt already by the Ukrainians. Give them a proper chance to defend themselves. They are not even asking for that much.
If Putin decides to escalate, the whole " protect Russian minorities " comes crashing down. The reason they are in a mess is because they were put in a mess. Putin doesn't care about Ukraine, he doesn't even care about Russians. He's got bigger plans.
If Putin decides to escalate, the whole " protect Russian minorities " comes crashing down. The reason they are in a mess is because they were put in a mess. Putin doesn't care about Ukraine, he doesn't even care about Russians. He's got bigger plans.
11
Yet another piece of anti-Russia propaganda. The war in Ukraine is a civil war that started with the illegal coup backed by western powers. It is not a Ukraine-Russia conflict. Get it!
101
Yes a coup started by people who wanted their freedom from corrupt government and repression. They won. Let them realize that the entire country did not come with them at first.
5
It's amazing how far Russian propaganda has penetrated into the American psyche. In Kiev, hundreds of thousands rallied for months for freedom and bureaucratic stability/fairness. RT and Putin want you to think this was a coup, when really it was a democratic groundswell of support for the opposite of Putin's 19th century hallucinations.
6
I do not understand. We have methodically started a new Cold War with Russia, trying to circle Russia with military bases and missiles and vilifying Russia for any resistance. Georgia launched an attack against Ossetia and Russian peacekeepers in Ossetia, on the Russian border, and we immediately began to vilify Russia for responding, even though the response was necessary to protect Ossetians and Russian peacekeepers and the response was measured. Now, we have encouraged a coup in Ukraine, a coup that is wildly anti-Russian, and we are further vilifying Russia for being concerned with Russian heritage people along the Russian border.
New York Times columnists write of President Putin in the most inflaming terms, terms that further encourage an American military stance against Russia. I do not understand. We went to war needlessly in 2003 and have been at war ever since and yet entertain the prospect of a widening deepening war. Why are we bent on harming Russia, a Russia which should be our ally? Why do we vilify Russia and especially President Putin who merely reflects Russian needs and responsibilities?
New York Times columnists write of President Putin in the most inflaming terms, terms that further encourage an American military stance against Russia. I do not understand. We went to war needlessly in 2003 and have been at war ever since and yet entertain the prospect of a widening deepening war. Why are we bent on harming Russia, a Russia which should be our ally? Why do we vilify Russia and especially President Putin who merely reflects Russian needs and responsibilities?
184
Ya me neither. This is like so mysterious I haven't been able to follow it at all. Ukraine had a revolution, but a coup and a scoot over at the top, then rebels startled a base down in Crimea, Russian tanks were flashed on the news, calls to harm Russia pervaded, meanwhile, Ukraine is broke. Also, is Russia really backing Neonazi rebels? And, which side is Pussy Riot on?
Why? These are the last spasms of a dying empire. Putin has had the temerity to thwart us in Syria, Iran, and now in Ukraine in America's proxy war against the Russians as they open a multipolar world in Eurasia. It is always about money, and in this case the supremacy of the dollar as the currency of international transactions. Putin has started world trades in the currencies of various nations, undercutting the dollar and creating other centers of financial trade. If the dollar loses its domination, America becomes just another nation among equals (or less), saddled with enormous debts and enormous outlays for its military might. Rid the world of Putin and break up Russia into federal states (and then do the same to China) allows America to continue its Full Spectrum Dominance.
2
Interesting perspective yours that any protest that happens in the former Soviet satellites against their corrupt governments is against Russia and agitated by the West. I'm sure the people in Poland, the Baltics, Georgia and Hungary share the exact opposite view of yours. The way I see it (and hear it from Putin during a few speeches) is trying to rebuild the former Soviet Union by taking back the countries that Stalin forcible invaded and annexed and filled with Russians before and after WWII. You also fail to point out how the Russian ethnically cleansed the Baltic countries of their own people by sending them off to Siberia (where 100s of thousands died) and replaced them with Russians (exactly what America did to its Native peoples). This whole area is a lot more politically messy than your simplistic view that the West and America is agitating and 'encircling' Russia. The border countries next to Russia are terrified of that big bear Russia with Putin at the helm is going to get them.
6
Putin has been cornered. The Russian economy is in shambles because the massive drop in the price of oil. Putin's own ill gotten wealth and the wealth of his cronies has plummeted due to drop in value of the ruble. Ukraine, once a part of Russia and the Soviet Empire is slipping away to become a part of the West.
I suggest that the latest surge in military activity from Russia comes as a result of Putin striking out at his aggressors ... those in the West ... in the most powerful way he can and in a way the will gain the greatest support from the Russian citizenry who see what once theirs, Ukraine, slipping away. Just like the cornered rat, striking out maybe effective at frightening and startling the aggressor enough in order to get away. However, the attack also exposes the rat's vulnerability to the aggressor.
From the point in my life where I could understand the thinking, I have generally opposed actions that involve the US getting involved in a war. I am extremely cautious and favor diplomacy and sanctions over war. However, I have recently seen value in our involvement in war ... 1) supporting the Kurds against ISIS and 2) supporting Ukraine. I suggest that now is the time to side with Ukraine in a material way with lethal weapons.