I have a MS in math. My daughter is applying for a PhD in optimization (more math) right now. Far too many people (men and women) believe that women can't do math or science. How many brilliant young minds are we losing because women aren't encouraged to pursue education in the sciences? I certainly did my part as my daughter was growing up.
11
After interviewing medical students for radiology residency positions for several years, I can see some of the best science students are being siphoned off to medical training as opposed to entering pHd programs in the hard sciences. These are capable individuals who recognize where the economic reward is to be had though I am certain many began with the desire to help others. Possibly the expense of undergrad and medical school influences them to "follow the money", a principle of the capitalistic system.
12
Are STEM careers valued by the students' parents? The traditional line in the black middle class was that the good careers were "doctor, lawyer, teacher, preacher." (Or so I'm told by a former professor at Howard University who couldn't convince her smart students to apply to Ph.D. programs - not a "real job" in their relatives' eyes.)
12
If you think the under-representation of blacks, Hispanics and women in the sciences is largely due to the personal deficiencies of those individuals -- read Neil deGrasse Tyson's entertaining and insightful autobiography. He's a positive guy, but he pulls no punches about the systemic 1) lack of encouragement and 2) actual discouragement and barriers he ran into. He persisted and found excellent programs and opportunities -- but if you have to be as outstanding as Neil deGrasse Tyson to get past systemic barriers, barriers white men never see, that's going to filter out many talented people.
I'm a woman who earned an honors degree in chemistry, back in the seventies, and have many women scientist friends. I could tell you many stories of small, constant, often unconscious actions and expectations that made it harder for a woman to succeed in the sciences than a man. Not impossible -- but significantly harder.
And that's the point Charles Blow is making -- there's a gauntlet that women and certain minorities have to run, which white men never encounter. The solution is not to tell individuals they need to suck it up, run faster, and somehow get through that gauntlet if they want to succeed. It's for us, as a society, to dismantle the gauntlet.
I'm a woman who earned an honors degree in chemistry, back in the seventies, and have many women scientist friends. I could tell you many stories of small, constant, often unconscious actions and expectations that made it harder for a woman to succeed in the sciences than a man. Not impossible -- but significantly harder.
And that's the point Charles Blow is making -- there's a gauntlet that women and certain minorities have to run, which white men never encounter. The solution is not to tell individuals they need to suck it up, run faster, and somehow get through that gauntlet if they want to succeed. It's for us, as a society, to dismantle the gauntlet.
81
I still trust my VCR. It never lies to me.
When it tells me that something terrible in the relationship between black males and the police, I always assume that it is crying about the racial differences between white cops and the black suspect.
When I am misled about that crisis - when, say, the complainer leaves out the inconvenient fact that the cop and his SON were the SAME race, that not only changes the whole story, but cuts a huge chunk out of the credibility of the source.
Know what I mean? For shame, Charles.
When it tells me that something terrible in the relationship between black males and the police, I always assume that it is crying about the racial differences between white cops and the black suspect.
When I am misled about that crisis - when, say, the complainer leaves out the inconvenient fact that the cop and his SON were the SAME race, that not only changes the whole story, but cuts a huge chunk out of the credibility of the source.
Know what I mean? For shame, Charles.
15
Mr. Blow calls attention to the under-representation of women and minorities in tech jobs, in science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) major fields, and concludes, in effect, that unless that changes—given the tech orientation of future employment—there’ll be increasing “income disparity”.
A decade ago Harvard’s Pres. Summers suggested the “innate differences between men and women might account for the latter’s underrepresentation in STEM fields . http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2005/1/14/summers-comments-on-women-an...
Moreover, a 2009 Harvard study http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/empirical%20analysis.pdf
followed samples of boys and girls from entry to kindergarten through the end of fifth grade. There was no gender gap in math in the fall of kindergarten year, but a significant gender gap based on 5th grade performance. “In summary, . . . girls are losing ground in (math in) every category we examine . . . Black and Hispanic students perform significantly worse than whites . . ..”
So it appears the gender gap in math emerges early, increases with years of schooling, is reflected in later underrepresentation of females in STEM fields and a gender gap (favoring males) of about 35 points in average SAT-Math score that has obtained since the 1970s. It thus appears to be a stable difference that has defied efforts at eradication or reduction.
Except for detail, a similar commentary is apt for blacks and Hispanics.
A decade ago Harvard’s Pres. Summers suggested the “innate differences between men and women might account for the latter’s underrepresentation in STEM fields . http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2005/1/14/summers-comments-on-women-an...
Moreover, a 2009 Harvard study http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/empirical%20analysis.pdf
followed samples of boys and girls from entry to kindergarten through the end of fifth grade. There was no gender gap in math in the fall of kindergarten year, but a significant gender gap based on 5th grade performance. “In summary, . . . girls are losing ground in (math in) every category we examine . . . Black and Hispanic students perform significantly worse than whites . . ..”
So it appears the gender gap in math emerges early, increases with years of schooling, is reflected in later underrepresentation of females in STEM fields and a gender gap (favoring males) of about 35 points in average SAT-Math score that has obtained since the 1970s. It thus appears to be a stable difference that has defied efforts at eradication or reduction.
Except for detail, a similar commentary is apt for blacks and Hispanics.
9
Mr. Blow,
Most of the US citizens who knew how to operate the US basic STEM industries such as making iron, steel, pipe, wire, building products, semiconductors, electronics, appliances, auto parts, etc. were discharged, laid off, or fired decades ago.
These people might now be long gone, dead and buried, and not around to teach current younger generations how to operate the machinery that was used to create those products.
There are no books that completely tell everything about how to do most of the things that we knew how to do many decades ago when we created the industries that won WWII and then gave us a bountiful way of life for a few decades after WWII.
I do not have confidence that the USA citizens still have the scientific and technical knowledge/capability to re-create our factories for innovating, designing and manufacturing any new products for export as required to reverse our trade balance and restore the value of the dollar, as the STEM educated US citizens did to create the US industrial machine that won WWII and then created a the excellent lifestyle that US citizens enjoyed for a few decades after WWII until the USA created all of these “Free Trade Agreements.”
Most of the US citizens who knew how to operate the US basic STEM industries such as making iron, steel, pipe, wire, building products, semiconductors, electronics, appliances, auto parts, etc. were discharged, laid off, or fired decades ago.
These people might now be long gone, dead and buried, and not around to teach current younger generations how to operate the machinery that was used to create those products.
There are no books that completely tell everything about how to do most of the things that we knew how to do many decades ago when we created the industries that won WWII and then gave us a bountiful way of life for a few decades after WWII.
I do not have confidence that the USA citizens still have the scientific and technical knowledge/capability to re-create our factories for innovating, designing and manufacturing any new products for export as required to reverse our trade balance and restore the value of the dollar, as the STEM educated US citizens did to create the US industrial machine that won WWII and then created a the excellent lifestyle that US citizens enjoyed for a few decades after WWII until the USA created all of these “Free Trade Agreements.”
7
The bias in this article is clearly evident. As he says however, he is not a science guy. So in this respect Mr. Blow has no first hand experience with what students experience. So it seems he has failed to look beyond the statistics to what working scientists experience in becoming professionals.
When I was Chief Geologist for Shell Deepwater Nigeria I can tell you we had exceptional geoscientists coming out of Africa with backgrounds which were extraordinary difficult. Raised in traditional African Villages these individuals excelled in a competitive USA office environment, and a number of these talented individuals stayed in the USA to earn their Phd.
I have never seen any evidence of race bias by the major companies who have employed me. Big Oil is all about performance and delivery. I can only point to the success of these Nigerian based on my personal experience. And to me, it seems there is something missing from this dialog about segregation.
When I was Chief Geologist for Shell Deepwater Nigeria I can tell you we had exceptional geoscientists coming out of Africa with backgrounds which were extraordinary difficult. Raised in traditional African Villages these individuals excelled in a competitive USA office environment, and a number of these talented individuals stayed in the USA to earn their Phd.
I have never seen any evidence of race bias by the major companies who have employed me. Big Oil is all about performance and delivery. I can only point to the success of these Nigerian based on my personal experience. And to me, it seems there is something missing from this dialog about segregation.
17
curious use of the word "minorities," which wasn't clarified until Charles Blow specified he meant Hispanics and blacks. I graduated from Columbia's School of Engineering and Applied Science a quarter century ago. My classmates included plenty of "minorities." White males were an anomaly. Plenty of students with backgrounds from China, India, Middle East, Korea, Japan etc. Many had distinctly foreign accents and hadn't been in America long enough to assimilate more. I'm certain they had a box to check off under the optional self-identity sections of religion, gender, ethnicity.
I generally love Charles' columns, but I find this one mildly off-putting. Our top engineering schools are dominated by "minorities," just not the specific ones that Charles neglected to mention until too many paragraphs.
Asians, Indians, Jews, Muslims. You'll find them all in the top STEM schools. As America becomes ever more diverse and heterogenous, perhaps a future column could address the very word "minority," and the imprecision of language. How many boxes should an aspiring applicant to Harvard check off before they're given preferred status?
I generally love Charles' columns, but I find this one mildly off-putting. Our top engineering schools are dominated by "minorities," just not the specific ones that Charles neglected to mention until too many paragraphs.
Asians, Indians, Jews, Muslims. You'll find them all in the top STEM schools. As America becomes ever more diverse and heterogenous, perhaps a future column could address the very word "minority," and the imprecision of language. How many boxes should an aspiring applicant to Harvard check off before they're given preferred status?
28
Agreed but much more is needed than steering children and improving science curriculums. We must improve the lives of children in the US. And we must especially break the cycle of poverty that impedes their success. Want to understand why our kids aren't, in aggregate, competitive with other industrialized countries consider these bleak stats: nearly 45% of our children live in low income families with adults who confront significant economic and social stress daily. Nearly half of those live below the federal poverty level, which if you do, you are likely to spend some of your life living in a car, a seedy hotel room, or a cardboard box. It is hard to imbue children from such circumstances with a love of learning, or to impress them with the excitement of science or the beauty of mathematics. Some will point to the exceptional, the gifted child born to dire conditions as proof that what is really going on is a decay in "moral" values applied to the lower classes; others, will rationalize (execrably) that their own children are successful due to superior genes. Nonsense - we will fail as a modern society if the life success of 1/2 our children are so strongly tied to the economic status of their parents. Indeed is that the antithesis of our own myth!
2
As a parent who is preparing a child for a STEM field, I can only say it is an enormous amount of work for both child and parent. No teacher, school or government program could ever replace the effort my wife and I expend in keeping our child on track with his academics. If minority development is your goal, then you must transform the families. It wouldn't hurt to admit that this is a multi generational project. Also the widespread assignment of blame for this problem drains the energies of minority youth and families. Children must be taught that failure will be painful and it will born by the child and the family.
11
Not meaning to get personal, but why did you become a journalist rather than a scientist like Neil deGrasse Tyson? Many African Americans in northern cities (before the 1954 Supreme Court decision outlawing racial segregation in tax supported schools) emigrated to foreign countries in Asia and Europe to pursue a scientific or medical degree. Some of the scientists ended up in Iran, India, China and Pakistan working as chemists, geologists, biologists, and metalurgists. Much to our country's loss, they appear to have made rewarding personal choices, given the then discouragements to their careers.
1
I don't know if it is about race as it is about gender. As a women and a STEM worker, men don’t embrace the idea of women counter parts. In the late 1980’s I was the only women in a couple of my college math courses however I never felt encouraged to work in a technical field. I have always told my daughter she can be whatever she puts her mind to, but I don’t know if I would embrace her to struggle in a man’s STEM working world.
Charles -- the hiring by Silicon valley software companies does appear disequitable and foolish, but don't take it as a surrogate for hiring across "STEM" broadly.
I suggest that the problem of a dearth of minorities & females with STEM degrees is a sub-set of an overall declining American education system.
There are prominent politicians who are simply anti-education and the lack of education support and innovation on a national scale reflects this animosity.
The fact that the US is the only industrialized democracy with out a national education policy can be seen in the declining world rankings of American students.
American colleges and universities tare not failing failing. American colleges and graduate schools are still magnets for world wide students. It is the locally controlled schools, grades K-12 that are failing. It is a political failing more than an educational failing.
There are prominent politicians who are simply anti-education and the lack of education support and innovation on a national scale reflects this animosity.
The fact that the US is the only industrialized democracy with out a national education policy can be seen in the declining world rankings of American students.
American colleges and universities tare not failing failing. American colleges and graduate schools are still magnets for world wide students. It is the locally controlled schools, grades K-12 that are failing. It is a political failing more than an educational failing.
5
"Mr Blow's citation of participation statistics to suggest a process that segregates against minorities is disingenuous at best."
Amen! This whole idea that disproportionate outcomes (or disparate impact) somehow proves discrimination is not only lazy from an intellectual standpoint, its dangerous in that it prevents true investigation into cause.
Amen! This whole idea that disproportionate outcomes (or disparate impact) somehow proves discrimination is not only lazy from an intellectual standpoint, its dangerous in that it prevents true investigation into cause.
17
I suspect that some of the ill treatment of women in science follows from observing how well women have done in law, another pursuit where it is helpful to be meticulous.
1
Perhaps we are seeing another example of "science denial". Based upon results in areas such as education, law, and sports, substantial effort has been directed toward correctly racial disparities in many areas of society. Why would science be any different? Scientists and mathematicians, in my experience are the most race blind of all individuals, being only interested in the science itself, and not the color, nationality, or sex of the individual.
Perhaps we should believe the "well established" science that intelligence is heritable, after all, it has been demonstrated in thousands of studies in millions of people. Differences in various demographic groups could easily explain the results Mr. Blow is so disappointed about.
It certainly is a better scientific explanation than some strange conspiracy among diverse groups of scientists throughout the world.
Perhaps we should believe the "well established" science that intelligence is heritable, after all, it has been demonstrated in thousands of studies in millions of people. Differences in various demographic groups could easily explain the results Mr. Blow is so disappointed about.
It certainly is a better scientific explanation than some strange conspiracy among diverse groups of scientists throughout the world.
11
We want more women in the sciences? We better recognize that scientists can come from anywhere.
My daughter - a senior at a top 10 university (usually ranked in the top 3, internationally) started college without the usual science credentials - didn't do any AP science in high school, isn't a strong math person - and she's a lover of fashion and makeup, and looks like a model when she walks out the door every morning. She was determined to do bio; she loves it. The first week of freshman year, a woman professor - a woman!! - told her she'd never make it, shouldn't even bother, and wouldn't let her into her intro bio section to give her a chance to prove her chops.
I believe college kids should handle their own school lives, so I got angry but not involved. Thank God my kid got also angry, not defeated. Three years later, she's finishing the hardest of the bio tracks (the one with the most requirements), has a string of A's and B+'s in her major, is doing an honors research project to graduate with an M.S. rather than M.A. and which will probably be published, and has her name on numerous published scientific papers from the world-famous lab she's worked in for 3 years. And she still loves loves loves biology.
That awful professor? She was fired at the end of that year. Good riddance.
My daughter - a senior at a top 10 university (usually ranked in the top 3, internationally) started college without the usual science credentials - didn't do any AP science in high school, isn't a strong math person - and she's a lover of fashion and makeup, and looks like a model when she walks out the door every morning. She was determined to do bio; she loves it. The first week of freshman year, a woman professor - a woman!! - told her she'd never make it, shouldn't even bother, and wouldn't let her into her intro bio section to give her a chance to prove her chops.
I believe college kids should handle their own school lives, so I got angry but not involved. Thank God my kid got also angry, not defeated. Three years later, she's finishing the hardest of the bio tracks (the one with the most requirements), has a string of A's and B+'s in her major, is doing an honors research project to graduate with an M.S. rather than M.A. and which will probably be published, and has her name on numerous published scientific papers from the world-famous lab she's worked in for 3 years. And she still loves loves loves biology.
That awful professor? She was fired at the end of that year. Good riddance.
13
I am a volunteer tutor to high school students in the sciences and the following has become abundantly clear. The US system where each of the sciences (Physics, Chemistry, and Biology) is accomplished in only one year is inadequate. In my case (I come from Kenya), starting in the 8th grade (Form 1) and ending in grade 13 (Form 6) we receive all three sciences every year. The advantage of that system are many. First, there is plenty of time for lots of experiments. In the US, students often watch cartoons of experiments on the internet. Doing experiments was a joyful and memorable experience. The workbooks for these experiments were designed by the ministry of education and their price was minimal. The slow pace allows for depth and breath and time to assimilate the ideas and appreciate them. As students' math knowledge expands, the depth of the science teaching can also increase to use that math. I had a student in the US who was excellent in Physics yet hated it because of the fast pace and the competitive environment. In maths and sciences, love and curiosity are far better predictors of success (and quality) than competitive zeal.
11
Scientific method requires that you analyze phenomena - social or otherwise - in terms of more than one explanation.
You ALWAYS offer ONE proposition for why the blacks have problems in this country: RACISM
So, the inference we can draw about you is inevitable: you are NOT a science guy. You did not have to say that, Charlie.
You ALWAYS offer ONE proposition for why the blacks have problems in this country: RACISM
So, the inference we can draw about you is inevitable: you are NOT a science guy. You did not have to say that, Charlie.
20
I, too, am troubled by such disparities. With the preponderance of Caucasions in the population its hard to watch a professional basketball or football game and not wonder why they are so underrepresented.
Where's the fairness? Such a disparity could not be just based on ability, could it?
Where's the fairness? Such a disparity could not be just based on ability, could it?
22
Wow, the likes of Mr. Blow are simply never, ever satisfied.
So, few minorities choose STEM careers.
Is this also supposed to be the fault of those who suffer from a shortage of melanin?
At what point do children like Charlie accept that everyone has to try to succeed, regardless of the color of their skin?
It's just simply exhausting that the NY Times continues to publish this childish nonsense from Mr. Blow, who clearly has a large chip on his shoulder and an inability to act like an adult, in America, in the 21st century.
So, few minorities choose STEM careers.
Is this also supposed to be the fault of those who suffer from a shortage of melanin?
At what point do children like Charlie accept that everyone has to try to succeed, regardless of the color of their skin?
It's just simply exhausting that the NY Times continues to publish this childish nonsense from Mr. Blow, who clearly has a large chip on his shoulder and an inability to act like an adult, in America, in the 21st century.
24
An excellent article and worthy topic. Though funny, I actually clicked on the article expecting it to be about how our country is bifurcating based on whether or not people believe in vaccinations and climate change.
This is why Neil Degrasse Tyson matters so much.
2
Paper or plastic? You want fries with that?
There are people of all stripes in our country who just will not accept math and science, or even reading, into their lives. Then they wonder why they're stuck in jobs that require name tags and hairnets as they rage against low wages.
There are people of all stripes in our country who just will not accept math and science, or even reading, into their lives. Then they wonder why they're stuck in jobs that require name tags and hairnets as they rage against low wages.
9
Success in science is only one place in many where government possesses limited ability to make a difference for minorities. When are liberals going to come to grips with this fact?
8
STEM-STEM-STEM-STEM-STEM! While I personally have strong educational background in math and science I ultimately moved to humanities and in college switched majors to fine arts. The more I read about this STEM business and its practitioners the more I see how their narrow perspective is adversely affecting our society. So many childish tech billionaires inflicting their ideas on other people and places with their corporate mindset and vast resources and little or no sense of the wider impact of their actions. So long as we continue in our insane worship of money in place of real down to Earth human values we will degrade both ourselves and the rest of life itself.
12
The endless claims that there are "STEM" jobs all over the place is baloney. Ask actual scientists and engineers out looking for jobs. Yes there are jobs out there but the number of people out looking for them outpaces job creation and the idea that we have to shunt everyone into "STEM" is foolhardy.
17
I bought the line that 'We need women in science!' I was a winner of national and international scholarships for excellence in biotech, I won several fellowships. And yet, working in a cutting edge field, doing medical research, I couldn't make enough to both live indoors AND eat on a regular basis. We tell everyone that they should go into STEM careers, but we only value those that produce the next app. Please, stop talking about STEM unless you want more than programmers. And, if we really do want STEM people, aside from IT, we should probably pay them.
17
It looks to me like the future 'haves' will be those who do not swallow the Science dogma, but rather trust their 'common sense' & support health & environmental & social policies like those espoused by today's GOP. Funding for Science, as a field, is being cut to negligible. Your kid with a PhD in physics will have to work for a weapons manufacturer or an energy company to make a living, (& NOT doing renewables!). If you really want to get rich quick, get a law (or business) degree, join the country club (or an investment firm), & go into politics for the .01%.
The people who understand Science are jumping up & down in the streets, & nobody's listening.
The people who understand Science are jumping up & down in the streets, & nobody's listening.
2
When you give statistics about minorities are you also including the South and East Asians? Because most of these kids taking up STEM majors, boys and girls. And they are right there in the top echelons , getting the top STEM jobs. There is an active pursuit of STEM education,supported by parents, many of whom are first generation immigrants, way down on the economic ladder.
17
" I had produced a project about why the “Star Wars” missile defense system wouldn’t work."
Presumably, you will now admit that your high school perspective was horribly misinformed?
Presumably, you will now admit that your high school perspective was horribly misinformed?
5
The airline lost the whole project when I flew to the international science fair, so I never got to compete.
----------------------------------------
Looks like the airline knew you were black and artlessly lost the cardboard cutout that you proudly made as a science project.
Racism is alive and well.
----------------------------------------
Looks like the airline knew you were black and artlessly lost the cardboard cutout that you proudly made as a science project.
Racism is alive and well.
6
Its not that racism and minority repression (including women) is a new descrimination in the STEM fields, its that it has ALWAYS been descrimitory for minorities and it has not gotten any better. In fact as a woman electrical engineer I have seen the descrimination get worse as republican s pass more descrimitory legislation against women.
1
With all respect to Blow's (no doubt) good intentions, this is the kind of puff piece written by people who don't understand science very well.
I hold a degree in Electrical Engineering and have worked in aerospace so long I'm about as unemployable as an Aerospace Engineering major. The jobs are good when you can get them but they are evanescent because they are tied to particular programs which, once they are completed, no longer need large teams of engineers (It takes a lot more labor to design and test a C-17 than it takes to churn them out on the assembly line).
And *pace* your readers, but I've encountered so many cranks in the STEM field that I'm beginning to think we have nothing on Hollywood for malignant kookery. Yes, Jenny McCarthy is a lightweight, but don't forget that anti-vaccination was started by one Dr. Andrew Wakefield, a STEM graduate (of enlightened, post-religious Old Blighty, I note).
My own field and nation are not immune. Need I remind you of Nobel Laureate Dr. William Shockley PhD, co-inventor of the transistor and virulent pseudoscientific racist?
Science is a very effective tool but in the end it is just a tool, one of many in the box and as capable of being misused as well-used. Nor does it confer any particular virtue on the individual or nation that uses it. Dr. von Braun should have taught us that--and if you weren't paying attention in class then Professor Tom Lehrer has provided the Cliff's Notes.
I hold a degree in Electrical Engineering and have worked in aerospace so long I'm about as unemployable as an Aerospace Engineering major. The jobs are good when you can get them but they are evanescent because they are tied to particular programs which, once they are completed, no longer need large teams of engineers (It takes a lot more labor to design and test a C-17 than it takes to churn them out on the assembly line).
And *pace* your readers, but I've encountered so many cranks in the STEM field that I'm beginning to think we have nothing on Hollywood for malignant kookery. Yes, Jenny McCarthy is a lightweight, but don't forget that anti-vaccination was started by one Dr. Andrew Wakefield, a STEM graduate (of enlightened, post-religious Old Blighty, I note).
My own field and nation are not immune. Need I remind you of Nobel Laureate Dr. William Shockley PhD, co-inventor of the transistor and virulent pseudoscientific racist?
Science is a very effective tool but in the end it is just a tool, one of many in the box and as capable of being misused as well-used. Nor does it confer any particular virtue on the individual or nation that uses it. Dr. von Braun should have taught us that--and if you weren't paying attention in class then Professor Tom Lehrer has provided the Cliff's Notes.
11
Where do we start? Part of it is American culture, since most of America is rural, cow tipping, and beer guzzling are still major forms of entertainment, those who want to apply themselves in schools are likely to be ridiculed by their peers. Second, pathetic instruction in math and science. The amount of work college students have to do to catch up to European and Asian counterparts is astounding and almost insurmountable, for Americans are just simply not taught math and science in schools on par with the developed world. Our children are being short changed by this country's/the state's educational system. Only the truly gifted can overcome the lack of knowledge and training for STEM subjects. We are competing against the world now, Toto. A manager at a large financial firm cannot hire any American graduates because they do not cut it at all compared to graduates from India or China. Thus our students lose out on jobs to foreign students, because they lack the necessary foundation.
Third, in college, hard work is not rewarded, so why would a college student sweat for hours over applied physics or differential equations and get a B- and consider it a good grade, when he can be an English major, have a better grade and have more time to party. Then, how much do engineers make? No one I know who got an engineering degree stayed in engineering. They all went into business or law. Much more money there. So let's get realistic. Attitudes and incentives have to change.
Third, in college, hard work is not rewarded, so why would a college student sweat for hours over applied physics or differential equations and get a B- and consider it a good grade, when he can be an English major, have a better grade and have more time to party. Then, how much do engineers make? No one I know who got an engineering degree stayed in engineering. They all went into business or law. Much more money there. So let's get realistic. Attitudes and incentives have to change.
4
Sadly, the sexism isn't even subtle in some fields. My daughter-in-law will graduate in May with a PhD. in chemistry from a large university. She has been made to give her research to male students who aren't doing as well as she. When she married my son, her advisor told her she would be worthless now as a chemist. He has also called her, to her face, a word that I don't think the NTY would print. She is so intelligent, sweet, and kind, and yet she has endured years of abuse from her professors and male students. Does she have support from female chemistry students or female professors? No, because there are no female students or professors in the chemistry graduate program at this school. One of the professors brought a soft-porn picture from a calendar to a freshman class, showed it to an 18 year old student, and told her that the model's behind (that's not the word he used) reminded him of her rear end. The dean and head of the department do nothing about the terrible sexism at this Oklahoma school.
12
A population educated in STEM disciplines is not a population susceptible to mindless marketing ploys, sports mania marketing or blinding following the will of the Koch brothers. Popular culture is a derivative of these corporate imperatives and it is popular culture which shapes our kids. This same culture
denigrates academic achievement. When was the last time you saw a movie or TV show in which a scientist or Engineer was not a "nerd" or an out and out bad guy? Thank you Steven Spielberg (Jurassic Park, ET, etc) among many others.
denigrates academic achievement. When was the last time you saw a movie or TV show in which a scientist or Engineer was not a "nerd" or an out and out bad guy? Thank you Steven Spielberg (Jurassic Park, ET, etc) among many others.
8
Wasn't the Unabomber a Ph.D. mathematician? Didn't the STEM crew invent the video game platforms that are the modern day equivalent of opium dens? Did STEM make any contributions to nuclear weaponry? Was the NSA's data center in Utah built upon rock 'n rock?
How many STEMers work for the Military Industrial Cancer?
How many STEMers work for the Military Industrial Cancer?
1
Exactly!
I am a licensed Mechanical Engineer and also a licensed Electrical Engineer.
I am a licensed Mechanical Engineer and also a licensed Electrical Engineer.
I am co-director of a partnership between Central Square Theater and MIT to create and produce plays that engage questions raised by science. I know that repertoire well, I think, and must say that representation of scientists of color and the concerns of communities of color are truly lacking. For that reason,and the reasons expressed in this article, we are seeking to launch a commissioning program to redress that imbalance.
3
Is that a national problem, a Cambridge, MA problem, or and MIT problem.
Would seem to me that the latter two would have a fair degree of responsibility for mirroring whatever you may see as the national problem, wouldn't you?
And what is it that your "commissioning program" will do that isn't being done today?
And, for that matter, what IS your "commissioning program"? How does it work? Who runs it? How does it get paid for?
...You know all of those silly little questions always vex the proposals of sweeping, "essential" programs to correct problems, perceived or not, valid or not.
Would seem to me that the latter two would have a fair degree of responsibility for mirroring whatever you may see as the national problem, wouldn't you?
And what is it that your "commissioning program" will do that isn't being done today?
And, for that matter, what IS your "commissioning program"? How does it work? Who runs it? How does it get paid for?
...You know all of those silly little questions always vex the proposals of sweeping, "essential" programs to correct problems, perceived or not, valid or not.
2
First, you need the brains and the interest. That's what the statistics show. Let's not get too PC about it.
16
Hey, this is Charlses' column. Without getting all P.C. about it, he's heading back to Louisiana with a stack of resume's and unfinished novels.
6
"Will our future be highly delineated by who does and who doesn’t have a science education (and the resulting higher salary), making for even more entrenched economic inequality by race and gender?"
What makes you think a science education is the best path to economic success? While being in TECHNOLOGY field (as distinct from basic math and science field) will likely provide a comfortable above avg income, it is not the way one earns riches in America. (Remember, there are extremely few Bill Gates's and Steve Jobss) Finance is FAR more favorable, and probably many things involving successful application of MBA training (which is probably easier than science for most) will likely earn one a better economic status. Many scientists I know love their work, but given the current cultural and economic climate, they are not inclined to recommend the career to young people.
Yes, society needs scientists and engineers. But like all workers, it is the business person and shareholder, the owners of the capital, NOT the engineer working in the trenches, who make most of the money. Again, remember that a very small fraction of scientists and engineers become Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg, or go on to found Uber (if even scientists anyway).
What makes you think a science education is the best path to economic success? While being in TECHNOLOGY field (as distinct from basic math and science field) will likely provide a comfortable above avg income, it is not the way one earns riches in America. (Remember, there are extremely few Bill Gates's and Steve Jobss) Finance is FAR more favorable, and probably many things involving successful application of MBA training (which is probably easier than science for most) will likely earn one a better economic status. Many scientists I know love their work, but given the current cultural and economic climate, they are not inclined to recommend the career to young people.
Yes, society needs scientists and engineers. But like all workers, it is the business person and shareholder, the owners of the capital, NOT the engineer working in the trenches, who make most of the money. Again, remember that a very small fraction of scientists and engineers become Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg, or go on to found Uber (if even scientists anyway).
10
I've spent 35 years in engineering, focused specifically on energy conservation, and renewable energy sources. Every company I have worked for, ranging from small to very large, has made a concerted effort, in some cases offering monetary rewards, to recruit women or minority male engineers. We have mentored at the k-12, and University level, our intern positions automatically go to female or minority applicants. The Universities tell us they actively recruit female and minority students.
Please do not make this about discrimination, or make it "society's" responsibility to "direct" students into STEM programs based on identity politics. Encourage a respect for math and science in all students.
Please do not make this about discrimination, or make it "society's" responsibility to "direct" students into STEM programs based on identity politics. Encourage a respect for math and science in all students.
22
If any gender or racial or ethnic group sees only few people like them in an occupation or activity, they may not be easily drawn to it. Or may feel an actual barrier.
White men see they are the majority in Stem, and in congress and politics, etc etc. We seem to be far from a tipping point towards equality. Race/gender still is sorting us out into groups in various fields.
The Times has many more male columnists than female. I thinks it's about a 10 to 2 ratio on the op ed page. It has 1 black columnist, to replace Bob Herbert, so to speak. What does that mean in 2015?
Conscious efforts have to be made. Stop importing foreign stem grads to work here. Restore public education funding to levels of past decades. Look at other countries where there may be more participation by women and minorities--what are they doing or not doing? I know they have more women lawmakers and presidents. These serve as role models.
Er, do other advanced countries have a charter school movement undermining public schools? Are they putting college grads in lifetime debt? Are people over 65 still paying off college loans from their social security checks, after returning to school after layoffs--many caused by sending their jobs to Asia?
The US is adept at setting up obstacles of all kinds for its' citizens.
White men see they are the majority in Stem, and in congress and politics, etc etc. We seem to be far from a tipping point towards equality. Race/gender still is sorting us out into groups in various fields.
The Times has many more male columnists than female. I thinks it's about a 10 to 2 ratio on the op ed page. It has 1 black columnist, to replace Bob Herbert, so to speak. What does that mean in 2015?
Conscious efforts have to be made. Stop importing foreign stem grads to work here. Restore public education funding to levels of past decades. Look at other countries where there may be more participation by women and minorities--what are they doing or not doing? I know they have more women lawmakers and presidents. These serve as role models.
Er, do other advanced countries have a charter school movement undermining public schools? Are they putting college grads in lifetime debt? Are people over 65 still paying off college loans from their social security checks, after returning to school after layoffs--many caused by sending their jobs to Asia?
The US is adept at setting up obstacles of all kinds for its' citizens.
4
I'm not convinced there are that many jobs in STEM fields. The people I know in these fields had trouble finding jobs. Some did career changes into finance.
15
h,
Does it make sense for millions of STEM educated and skilled immigrants to be admitted into this country at the same time we have millions of unemployed native born STEM educated Americans without work.
Why did President Clinton modify President Johnson’s Hart-Celler Act, INS, Act of 1965 by signing the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000 (Hatch-Abraham-Gramm into Law?
PL106-313 sections102 and 103; 114 Stat 1251; enacted 2000-10-03; signed by Bill Clinton 2000-10-17) granted government functionaries amnesty for over-shooting the H-1B limit by 22,500 in FY1999 and by about 30,000 in FY2000; temporarily increased H-1B "cap"/"limit" to 195K for FY2001 through FY2003; exempted all individuals being hired by institutions of higher education, as well as non-profit and government-research organizations, from the cap, and § 105, 114 Stat. 1253 permitted portability, i.e. employer/sponsor change?
Why did President Clinton and the US congress increase the number of H.1.b. visas?
Were they bribed?
By who?
Lobbyists?
Does it make sense for millions of STEM educated and skilled immigrants to be admitted into this country at the same time we have millions of unemployed native born STEM educated Americans without work.
Why did President Clinton modify President Johnson’s Hart-Celler Act, INS, Act of 1965 by signing the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000 (Hatch-Abraham-Gramm into Law?
PL106-313 sections102 and 103; 114 Stat 1251; enacted 2000-10-03; signed by Bill Clinton 2000-10-17) granted government functionaries amnesty for over-shooting the H-1B limit by 22,500 in FY1999 and by about 30,000 in FY2000; temporarily increased H-1B "cap"/"limit" to 195K for FY2001 through FY2003; exempted all individuals being hired by institutions of higher education, as well as non-profit and government-research organizations, from the cap, and § 105, 114 Stat. 1253 permitted portability, i.e. employer/sponsor change?
Why did President Clinton and the US congress increase the number of H.1.b. visas?
Were they bribed?
By who?
Lobbyists?
6
At least you did not think of star wars missile defense system as a racist idea to hold blacks back in this country in order for you to prognosticate it would fail. Good job.
9
Now, that wasn't kind. True, but not necessarily embracing the concept of the "perpetual" and "inevitable" victim that Mr. Blow usually espouses.
6
For a real life; follow your heart.
3
I wanted to be a poet, but I realized that type of education would have meant a life of poverty for me, so I studied engineering!
4
"Is science education a new area of our segregation?" --- Blow
It needn't be, but that will require that science be taught in our schools starting at a very young age, starting in the first grade. Part of our relative backwardness in science, compared to other advanced nations, is that science is not emphasized enough in our basic teaching curriculum. We also need to have teachers who are more knowledgeable in science teaching it, not people trained as English teachers, say, who are drafted to teach science instead. In order to get people with strong science backgrounds into teaching, you will have to pay them accordingly. Supposedly, we already spend more money per student than most of the other advanced countries, but our priorities must not be right. Excellent science teaching at all levels of school should be a top priority if the U.S. is going to compete effectively in the modern world economy. Not everyone can succeed as a scientist, but more will be able to if science is given high priority, and if we leave our biases behind on who can and cannot become a scientist.
It needn't be, but that will require that science be taught in our schools starting at a very young age, starting in the first grade. Part of our relative backwardness in science, compared to other advanced nations, is that science is not emphasized enough in our basic teaching curriculum. We also need to have teachers who are more knowledgeable in science teaching it, not people trained as English teachers, say, who are drafted to teach science instead. In order to get people with strong science backgrounds into teaching, you will have to pay them accordingly. Supposedly, we already spend more money per student than most of the other advanced countries, but our priorities must not be right. Excellent science teaching at all levels of school should be a top priority if the U.S. is going to compete effectively in the modern world economy. Not everyone can succeed as a scientist, but more will be able to if science is given high priority, and if we leave our biases behind on who can and cannot become a scientist.
5
Wow, I certainly do agree!
Asia is now the primary source of the most advanced engineering and scientific talent because their public education process starts early and continues to produce a stream of highly qualified young science and engineering graduates that is quite large compared to that produced by the US undergraduate college programs.
American students will generally not endure the hard work, hard studying, concentrated critical thinking, and the intense focus that is required for science and engineering degrees, especially since today there is such limited financial rewards and respect for that STEM related effort after graduation.
Asian countries are now producing large quantities of technically educated and competent scientists and engineers with the hard work ethics, the concentrated critical thinking ability, and the intense focus that might even be better technically qualified than the US STEM graduates to create new commercial products with the associated jobs and new taxable national wealth, while the USA educational system produces mostly non-STEM graduates that generally do not create very much new taxable national wealth.
Asia is now the primary source of the most advanced engineering and scientific talent because their public education process starts early and continues to produce a stream of highly qualified young science and engineering graduates that is quite large compared to that produced by the US undergraduate college programs.
American students will generally not endure the hard work, hard studying, concentrated critical thinking, and the intense focus that is required for science and engineering degrees, especially since today there is such limited financial rewards and respect for that STEM related effort after graduation.
Asian countries are now producing large quantities of technically educated and competent scientists and engineers with the hard work ethics, the concentrated critical thinking ability, and the intense focus that might even be better technically qualified than the US STEM graduates to create new commercial products with the associated jobs and new taxable national wealth, while the USA educational system produces mostly non-STEM graduates that generally do not create very much new taxable national wealth.
5
I earned a science doctorate and the sexism and racism I experienced and continue to experience is unimaginable. If it weren't for my faith, support system and inner strength, I would have quit a long time ago. Anyone who wants more women and minorities in STEM fields, need to deal with the hostile climate.
53
I hear you, professor. But I've also come to believe that the only way the hostilities will cease is if there is a critical mass of women and minorities within those fields who demand change. Waiting for the establishment to create an enticing work environment isn't going to happen; in many ways it can't happen without input from those impacted within it. In the long run, we will only hurt ourselves if we don't demand the opportunities to excel in STEM fields- and that includes demanding change in traditional workplace practices and beliefs.
1. To be able to be the informed and able citizen that our democracy demands, everyone needs to have some basic knowledge of science, mathematics and technology.
2. Just for the good of the soul - a better appreciation of the world around us - it is good for people to know some science.
3. STEM education imparts habits of thought that are useful in many other lines of work.
4. The typical imperatives for the Indian-American are - engineer, doctor, or run your own business (which could be a 7-11 or a motel). The first two lead into STEM.
5. In so far as opportunity is lacking for the young to explore STEM, we need to fix that. But beyond that, the motivation comes from within or from one's family. I don't know how this can be fixed.
2. Just for the good of the soul - a better appreciation of the world around us - it is good for people to know some science.
3. STEM education imparts habits of thought that are useful in many other lines of work.
4. The typical imperatives for the Indian-American are - engineer, doctor, or run your own business (which could be a 7-11 or a motel). The first two lead into STEM.
5. In so far as opportunity is lacking for the young to explore STEM, we need to fix that. But beyond that, the motivation comes from within or from one's family. I don't know how this can be fixed.
3
Some STEM disciplines have direct, commercial applications and those with degrees can find employment in those industries. However, many STEM disciplines are within academia. There is limited availability of jobs and research grants for those disciplines.
6
As an engineering undergrad student, and as a mentor to high school students who have shown an interest in STEM, it is clear to me that the divergence between the over represented populations (white and asian males) and underrepresented populations (everybody else) happens before the high school age. Students in their teenage years already have an idea of what they can and cannot do, and so anything that can affect change will happen in middle school and elementary school.
As far as minority students graduating from top level colleges and not entering STEM? Most engineering majors don't! Capital One, among other banks, is constantly trying to hire us away! I have no doubt that minority engineering students are still successful after graduation, even if they do not enter STEM careers.
As far as minority students graduating from top level colleges and not entering STEM? Most engineering majors don't! Capital One, among other banks, is constantly trying to hire us away! I have no doubt that minority engineering students are still successful after graduation, even if they do not enter STEM careers.
6
Hi Charles,
One reason why there may be such an inequity in companies hiring minorities and women in STEM positions is that once students get in to STEM they may not actually like it or the work. They may find other positions like business or law that are more people interactive. A more interesting study may be how many under represented minorities are getting MS or PhDs. That might be more indicative of the inequities. And it might be a clue on how to better encourage these minority groups to work in STEM. It seems that are buying into the logic that there is a STEM shortage and the future looks great. But instead what we need to do is better capture people suited for STEM fields.
One reason why there may be such an inequity in companies hiring minorities and women in STEM positions is that once students get in to STEM they may not actually like it or the work. They may find other positions like business or law that are more people interactive. A more interesting study may be how many under represented minorities are getting MS or PhDs. That might be more indicative of the inequities. And it might be a clue on how to better encourage these minority groups to work in STEM. It seems that are buying into the logic that there is a STEM shortage and the future looks great. But instead what we need to do is better capture people suited for STEM fields.
6
Anne, Washington, DC: My H.S. classmate wanted to be an actress. I remember speaking to her about giving up this foolish idea and choosing an educational field more likely to provide a good living wage. I went on to teach Math. She went on to be the actress, playwright, and comedienne Ann Meara. ("Stiller & Meara"- married 50+ years)
8
Point well taken. Sometimes it's a good idea. (She is a favorite of mine.) But probably STEM provides a more reliable income for most people.
3
But for a thousand others her age that year with the exact same ambitions, your advice was dead-on correct. I want my college son to become a pitcher in the big leagues, too. I'm still dreamin'.
5
The fact that less Americans are going into STEM careers is a matter of econimics. Why would anyone smart enough to go for a STEM degree even think about it? There is vastly more money, with less work, to be had in finance. Best to import engineers and scientists from other countries to do the 'hard' work (like we do farm laborers), while we Americans enjoy the good life.
13
It is not always about race or racism, Chicken Little.
Competency matters.
Neil Tyson is not exactly white and not exactly a pariah because of his color.
The father of the Ghanian-American kid who scored perfect on SAT and got admission offers from all Ivy League programs came from the very land that exported slaves to this country.
So, let's give merit a chance here so that we do not have to import H1B's from Hyderabad.
Competency matters.
Neil Tyson is not exactly white and not exactly a pariah because of his color.
The father of the Ghanian-American kid who scored perfect on SAT and got admission offers from all Ivy League programs came from the very land that exported slaves to this country.
So, let's give merit a chance here so that we do not have to import H1B's from Hyderabad.
15
Thanks for bringing up Dr. Tyson! Let's listen to what Dr. Tyson has to say about this issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ihNLEDiuM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ihNLEDiuM
1
B, Tyson simply says that he had to overcome many obstacles in his path to become the scientist that he is today. I suppose that successful people are ones who did not give up when they were knocked off their feet, and who got up to complete the journey. Also, you do not become a scientist by just wishing that you were one.
Persistence leads to success. If you need proof, look at Tyson or our half-black president, Barack. They did not let life's adversities deter them from reaching their goals in life.
Persistence leading to success is not a black or white issue. It is a human paradigm.
Persistence leads to success. If you need proof, look at Tyson or our half-black president, Barack. They did not let life's adversities deter them from reaching their goals in life.
Persistence leading to success is not a black or white issue. It is a human paradigm.
4
I'm a science game designer just launching our first games in to a cacophony of complaints across media about women in STEM, the crisis in play, and the inexcusable disparities in gender and race in tech study and tech workplaces.
The images of self actually come from earlier down the pipeline - in preschool, and that's why I design for 4 or 5 and up. Preschoolers using non-gendered, non-race based, toys and games which promote STEAM as well as STEM, are the kids who have the best chances of succeeding. They need the support of their families, teachers and communities to see that their brainpower is applicable to any field in which they can envision themselves. When we give them role models in stories and media of all genders and all races in the STEM fields, or any other field for that matter, those kids will see themselves as capable, and suited to those fields.
The world is not yet flat in this regard - of playthings or roles in media. at na2ure, we are working to make the tools which make how nature make structure, pattern, and color easily grasped, by even the youngest minds, and show them how smart they really are. So much of seeing nature is intuitive, and can be nourished. And young children are called natural scientists in their explorative play methods. At na2ure we know this to be true for children of all genders and races.
The images of self actually come from earlier down the pipeline - in preschool, and that's why I design for 4 or 5 and up. Preschoolers using non-gendered, non-race based, toys and games which promote STEAM as well as STEM, are the kids who have the best chances of succeeding. They need the support of their families, teachers and communities to see that their brainpower is applicable to any field in which they can envision themselves. When we give them role models in stories and media of all genders and all races in the STEM fields, or any other field for that matter, those kids will see themselves as capable, and suited to those fields.
The world is not yet flat in this regard - of playthings or roles in media. at na2ure, we are working to make the tools which make how nature make structure, pattern, and color easily grasped, by even the youngest minds, and show them how smart they really are. So much of seeing nature is intuitive, and can be nourished. And young children are called natural scientists in their explorative play methods. At na2ure we know this to be true for children of all genders and races.
13
In a feudal system the peons don't get educated any further than what is necessary for them to serve the masters.
The current system only invests in things that will bring more wealth to those who already have plenty.
If you want a world class education from early childhood on, you might want to get born in another country.
The current system only invests in things that will bring more wealth to those who already have plenty.
If you want a world class education from early childhood on, you might want to get born in another country.
14
I take issue with Mr. Blow's leaving out Asian-Americans (which includes South Asians or Indians) from his definition of minorities. When you use the complete definition, the picture for STEM is far less bleak.
In addition, regarding the hiring statistic he throws in at the end, many STEM grads choose to pursue non-STEM jobs such as finance, consulting, accounting or other well-paying corporate work. Because in the longer term, management always wins and these areas are rightfully thought of as a fast-track to management jobs. This causation/correlation aspect is left unaddressed, which is sloppy reasoning to me.
So the issue comes down less to STEM hiring practices so much as early and future educational choices. That in turn falls on parents and schools to sort out.
Yes, the potential for segregation exists, but no, it's not solely attributable to racism.
In addition, regarding the hiring statistic he throws in at the end, many STEM grads choose to pursue non-STEM jobs such as finance, consulting, accounting or other well-paying corporate work. Because in the longer term, management always wins and these areas are rightfully thought of as a fast-track to management jobs. This causation/correlation aspect is left unaddressed, which is sloppy reasoning to me.
So the issue comes down less to STEM hiring practices so much as early and future educational choices. That in turn falls on parents and schools to sort out.
Yes, the potential for segregation exists, but no, it's not solely attributable to racism.
10
One problem is making the sciences and the arts somehow opposing or in contrast. A good scientists has tremendous imagination, looks beyond the fact and dreams big. Einstein once said, something like imagination is more important than reason. What is not hard scientific fact, but what is thought to be unproven hard fact, is the current of the artistic, visionary scientists. He/she has a vision and works to prove that in a lab or in the field--very creative. Science needs to be sold as a creative field, not a multiple choice, right/wrong, game of hard facts.
5
Einstein said imagination if more important than knowledge. He never said it was more important than reason. There is a big difference.
The vast majority of STEM jobs do not have much room for creativity, unfortunately. This is a big disappointment to those who had been falsely lead to believe this would be the case, as you appear to urge.
The vast majority of STEM jobs do not have much room for creativity, unfortunately. This is a big disappointment to those who had been falsely lead to believe this would be the case, as you appear to urge.
5
I am surprised that you, one of my favorite columnists, simply dropped from your essay any statistics on Asians. Why? A relatively small minority with likely relatively large numbers of STEM graduates and professionals - doesn't that help to explain the disparities? Or at least give us a hint as to where to look for explanations for the disparities? Or is there no explanation except racial injustice? Perhaps the culture of each group or even subgroup explains this "segregated by science" phenomenon that you wonder about.
17
Actually, it is right there to the side of the article. But surely all of you who believe this do understand that the stereotypes of Asians were not the same as the stereotypes for black and women of all color?
2
Another reason that STEM teachers in middle and High school may struggle with exciting teaching is that anyone who really understands those areas are encouraging into one of those high paying jobs and told they are wasting their intelligence teaching below their entitled pay grade.
7
I fear I'm a voice in the wilderness. I for one, Charles, am grateful that your science project was the end of your engagement. You (and we) are better off that you turned to the work you do. I would hope that you, of all Times columnists, would resist the dreadful pragmatism that infects all discussion of education. Current policy is doing far greater harm than failing to produce more computer scientists to compete with the Asians in development of useless "apps." Our children are being deprived of curiosity, compassion, and the opportunity to perceive and create things of beauty. The vast majority of children of color are either in bleak, underfunded public schools or charters, like KIPP, Success Academies and Democracy Prep, that are more like military schools and treat children with condescension and abusive discipline.
I wish you and other thoughtful commentators would use your considerable wattage to shine a spotlight on the terribly damaging direction education is taking in America. STEM programs, or the lack thereof, are the least of our worries.
I wish you and other thoughtful commentators would use your considerable wattage to shine a spotlight on the terribly damaging direction education is taking in America. STEM programs, or the lack thereof, are the least of our worries.
11
When 4 out of 5 NYC public high school ''grads'' can't even read well enough to apply for a job, your diagnosis of American education is frightfully correct.
1
Off base, if well-intentioned. STEM fails in the US primarily because, with the exception of IT, which should not even be considered in the same bundle, there are very, very few decent jobs, few opportunities for advancement, flat or declining government support, and other effects due to the loss of manufacturing.
It is simply realistic to not push a kid into science. Not anymore, and in reality, not for decades past, or the way things are developing, decades into the future. A responsible parent, or even an educator, has to pay attention to employability, and, speaking in a gross generality, we do not even have a population of educators who have the background or abilities to generate new generations of scientists.
A reboot, if we want one, is a lengthy process, taking at least one whole generation. If it were to happen, minorities would be well-represented.
-a physics Ph.D. still shoveling sand against the tide.
It is simply realistic to not push a kid into science. Not anymore, and in reality, not for decades past, or the way things are developing, decades into the future. A responsible parent, or even an educator, has to pay attention to employability, and, speaking in a gross generality, we do not even have a population of educators who have the background or abilities to generate new generations of scientists.
A reboot, if we want one, is a lengthy process, taking at least one whole generation. If it were to happen, minorities would be well-represented.
-a physics Ph.D. still shoveling sand against the tide.
19
As a fellow physics Ph.D., I disagree. While academic jobs are scarce and pay poorly, there is a very vibrant private sector in which scientists can do very rewarding work and get paid a good salary.
I briefly held an academic job after my Ph.D., but found I spent all of my time at my start-up in the semiconductor area. After just a year I left a great university, took more than a few post-docs and grad students with me, and have never been happier.
I've heard it said that a physicist can do anything because we're trained to do nothing. I've hired lots of physicists over the years, paid them very well (to the point of being able to retire in their 30's from cashing in their stock options, though none did retire), and watched them thrive.
Of course, I also remember interviewing on Wall Street to be a 'quant.' I quickly passed on that option, though many of my classmates eagerly left academia and many became wealthy.
I briefly held an academic job after my Ph.D., but found I spent all of my time at my start-up in the semiconductor area. After just a year I left a great university, took more than a few post-docs and grad students with me, and have never been happier.
I've heard it said that a physicist can do anything because we're trained to do nothing. I've hired lots of physicists over the years, paid them very well (to the point of being able to retire in their 30's from cashing in their stock options, though none did retire), and watched them thrive.
Of course, I also remember interviewing on Wall Street to be a 'quant.' I quickly passed on that option, though many of my classmates eagerly left academia and many became wealthy.
6
Physics is hard work. The only subject at school that's harder is Classical Greek. To be even a half-decent physicist these days, you have to have very good mathematical skills. For most of us, that takes lots of practise. Which takes lots of time.
I chose to study physics and philosophy at university because I thought they were more important subjects than any others, not because I was any good at them or even enjoyed them.
It's the same reason I've run fast and far for all my life. Running helps condition the body. Mathematics, physics and philosophy help condition the mind.
I chose to study physics and philosophy at university because I thought they were more important subjects than any others, not because I was any good at them or even enjoyed them.
It's the same reason I've run fast and far for all my life. Running helps condition the body. Mathematics, physics and philosophy help condition the mind.
8
Has anyone considered who is teaching science and math classes in elementary school, middle school, and high school? Are those classes staffed with education majors? Or are they staffed with science and math teachers who majored in the fields they are teaching?
14
Worse, almost none of these teachers have had any work experience in those fields, and consequently have no idea what the job market either needs now or might need in the future. Historically, even those science and math major educators have had no knowledge of actual careers in those fields, or have retreated to education as a default.
If you look at who teaches at the university level, you find people who have never had, nor needed, a course in 'education'. It is simply not relevant at that level, or I might suggest, at other levels.
If you look at who teaches at the university level, you find people who have never had, nor needed, a course in 'education'. It is simply not relevant at that level, or I might suggest, at other levels.
4
There is an irony here in Blow's presentation: selective sampling that distorts the picture who who's involved with science. So we focus on Computer Science and Engineering, but ignore all the other scientific disciplines.
As part of the graduate school pipeline, Women are under-represented in some scientific disciplines, and over represented in others. So for instance, in the healthcare field, women represented 71% of graduate students in clinical medicine, and 76% of those in other health studies. In biology and agricultural sciences, 54% of students are women.
Yes women are underrepresented in computer science and engineering studies. And men are underrepresented in the healthcare studies. They are closer to equal in most other areas, with women often edging men out. This make sense because more women are getting into college than men, and pursuing graduate studies (57% of all degrees).
The bigger picture is that men are falling behind across the board overall in post-secondary education. But since there is no organized lobby calling this out, commentators like Blow don't bother to look into it.
As part of the graduate school pipeline, Women are under-represented in some scientific disciplines, and over represented in others. So for instance, in the healthcare field, women represented 71% of graduate students in clinical medicine, and 76% of those in other health studies. In biology and agricultural sciences, 54% of students are women.
Yes women are underrepresented in computer science and engineering studies. And men are underrepresented in the healthcare studies. They are closer to equal in most other areas, with women often edging men out. This make sense because more women are getting into college than men, and pursuing graduate studies (57% of all degrees).
The bigger picture is that men are falling behind across the board overall in post-secondary education. But since there is no organized lobby calling this out, commentators like Blow don't bother to look into it.
23
I don't think grouping Science, Technology, Engineering and Math as a single category makes any sense at all.
Technology and Engineering fields pay well, and are growing at a faster pace than we're producing college graduates with these skills. Math jobs are often in business fields and have good job prospects, but very different.
Scientific fields are hurting. Universities no longer employ scientists to do research - they try to attract scientists who can win grants and then use that soft money to pay researchers. When the government funding for grants dried up, many highly trained scientists lost jobs and have not returned to their Science fields. Why would anyone struggle to do the hard work of getting a Science degree, only to be subject to low wages and an uncertain job market?
Technology and Engineering fields pay well, and are growing at a faster pace than we're producing college graduates with these skills. Math jobs are often in business fields and have good job prospects, but very different.
Scientific fields are hurting. Universities no longer employ scientists to do research - they try to attract scientists who can win grants and then use that soft money to pay researchers. When the government funding for grants dried up, many highly trained scientists lost jobs and have not returned to their Science fields. Why would anyone struggle to do the hard work of getting a Science degree, only to be subject to low wages and an uncertain job market?
13
Simple. Leave academia for the private sector.
3
You have to be extremely good to have a good job in science. In that way, it is like music or acting or even liberal arts. If you don't love, love science, or if you aren't brilliant, brilliant, beware. It is not a good field to push people into to 'get a job'.
A musician who doesn't get to to the top may perhaps pick out a very modest living as a music teacher, or transcriber.
Likewise, a physicist or biologist may become a perennial post doc or lab tech, or perhaps a worker in a lab. Some of these jobs are not terrible, but highway toll takers make more money. Public high-school science teaching jobs are very hard to get; easier perhaps to get tutoring jobs at community college, or low-paid adjunct or private school teaching jobs--long hours, low wage. Yes there are jobs. Not an abundance of good jobs.
Science is wildly competitive and most with degrees fall into low-wage insecure work. This has been the case since the nineties.
The idea that there exists a shortage of people to take good, high-paying jobs in science can no longer be considered a myth, but instead a lie. (http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/the-myth-of-the-sci... and http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/04/24/stem_worker_shortage_a_my...
Yes, you can get work. Good work commensurate with the time and effort to obtain your degree? Yes, if you are very, very good.
A musician who doesn't get to to the top may perhaps pick out a very modest living as a music teacher, or transcriber.
Likewise, a physicist or biologist may become a perennial post doc or lab tech, or perhaps a worker in a lab. Some of these jobs are not terrible, but highway toll takers make more money. Public high-school science teaching jobs are very hard to get; easier perhaps to get tutoring jobs at community college, or low-paid adjunct or private school teaching jobs--long hours, low wage. Yes there are jobs. Not an abundance of good jobs.
Science is wildly competitive and most with degrees fall into low-wage insecure work. This has been the case since the nineties.
The idea that there exists a shortage of people to take good, high-paying jobs in science can no longer be considered a myth, but instead a lie. (http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/the-myth-of-the-sci... and http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/04/24/stem_worker_shortage_a_my...
Yes, you can get work. Good work commensurate with the time and effort to obtain your degree? Yes, if you are very, very good.
28
Spot on, Karen. It is entirely popular mythology that an advanced degree in most of the sciences is automatic entry into a good, or well-paid job. Graduate school generally can only prepare one for an academic job, and these have always been scarce, and extremely competitive. Nothing prepares students for industrial or secondary teaching jobs, and as you mention, these are not exactly abundant. The concept that STEM jobs are in demand is simply fantasy. The openings that we see are to be filled with low-wage, high-skilled immigrant labor, or just outsourced completely.
9
Absolutely untrue. If anything the people in sciences with math education can go to wall street. If you are not good in music, your job will be cashier at wall mart. Even if you are good in music, the likelihood of being good enough means you'll have to find another field.
The competition in those fields is intense. You just have it completely backwards.
The competition in those fields is intense. You just have it completely backwards.
1
To NSH: yes, of course, you have a point, and it's a legitimate point. If you are a smart enough person to get a PhD in say, chemistry or physics, and you find there are no good jobs in chemistry or physics, you will probably not starve; you will go into something else. Maybe computers, maybe finance. A lot of people go into medicine, physician's assistant, or nursing, because they have the pre-reqs. And they do fine.
But is that what we are saying to kids? We are saying 'we need scientists, there are good jobs in science'. We should tell people, if you LOVE physics, study physics, then, take some more courses and do finance. If you don't love physics, go straight to finance. Another good way to work on Wall Street is to study advanced statistics and modeling--and you can combine that with a psychology degree, if you love psychology.
But is that what we are saying to kids? We are saying 'we need scientists, there are good jobs in science'. We should tell people, if you LOVE physics, study physics, then, take some more courses and do finance. If you don't love physics, go straight to finance. Another good way to work on Wall Street is to study advanced statistics and modeling--and you can combine that with a psychology degree, if you love psychology.
3
There are plenty of minority doctors and lawyers. When scientists get paid what doctors and lawyers make, there will be plenty of minority scientists.
19
Mr. Blow's last question: "Is science education a new area of our segregation?"
My answer is certainly, NO. Not because there is no segregation because there certainly is quite a bit. But, no, because it's not new. When I earned my engineering degree in 1971 there were two women in the entire engineering program at a major California university. There were no minorities as I can recall. I didn't work in the profession for longer than ten years. Yet, during that time, I did not have one female colleague.
This condition wasn't good for society then nor now.
My answer is certainly, NO. Not because there is no segregation because there certainly is quite a bit. But, no, because it's not new. When I earned my engineering degree in 1971 there were two women in the entire engineering program at a major California university. There were no minorities as I can recall. I didn't work in the profession for longer than ten years. Yet, during that time, I did not have one female colleague.
This condition wasn't good for society then nor now.
5
Let's not ignore the fact that as a society we constantly ignore scientific thinking and scientific evidence. A person does not have to be a physics major to have a rational and evidence based thought process. How can we encourage scientific thinking among children, if we parents put "gut-feelings" (the vaccination situation, religion (e.g. creationism), politics (e.g. climate change denial), etc. ahead of scientific evidence? And why is not being able to do math treated as such a badge of honor even among otherwise educated people?
25
Very well said.
STEM subjects are taught more badly, more boringly, than any other academic field. I had science instructors in college tell our class on the first day -- and second, and third, etc. -- that they were going to flunk 1/3 of us, and another third would drop or nearly fail.
By contrast, I have been an instructor for a number of courses, and I always tell my students that my goal is ensure learning and success for as many as possible -- ideally all. I know many other instructors who are equally determined to help their students learn, not hinder them or stand indifferently by.
Guess what? Both approaches accomplish their goal. If teachers, textbooks and class curricula set out to drive students away, they do. If teachers, texts and curricula put in an effort to be clear, interesting, systematic, and significant, far more students will stay on target rather than moving on to a less hostile field.
Of course students who come into a class barely able to read well, to write clearly, and to think critically are going to struggle. But I've taught these under-prepared students too (Upward Bound; ESL/foreign students among them) and again seen repeatedly that if I work to convey that my course subject and goals are important, exciting, achievable ... many students do start to perform better than they thought they could. They improve in many ways, not least in their confidence as learners.
Yes, early childhood ed & poverty are a huge problem, but so is all of STEM teaching.
By contrast, I have been an instructor for a number of courses, and I always tell my students that my goal is ensure learning and success for as many as possible -- ideally all. I know many other instructors who are equally determined to help their students learn, not hinder them or stand indifferently by.
Guess what? Both approaches accomplish their goal. If teachers, textbooks and class curricula set out to drive students away, they do. If teachers, texts and curricula put in an effort to be clear, interesting, systematic, and significant, far more students will stay on target rather than moving on to a less hostile field.
Of course students who come into a class barely able to read well, to write clearly, and to think critically are going to struggle. But I've taught these under-prepared students too (Upward Bound; ESL/foreign students among them) and again seen repeatedly that if I work to convey that my course subject and goals are important, exciting, achievable ... many students do start to perform better than they thought they could. They improve in many ways, not least in their confidence as learners.
Yes, early childhood ed & poverty are a huge problem, but so is all of STEM teaching.
10
Too true. But in actuality what you have said about STEM teaching can also be said for almost all the academic disciplines with the possible exception of Art and Music which are being removed from many curriculums as fast as the school boards can cut their budgets!
1
I'm not a math teacher; I'm an English teacher. But I have to object to the comments blaming this problem on - surprise! - teachers.
Ironically the blame is unscientific, unfounded on data and instead founded on anecdotes and personal biases ("my daughter's math teacher once...." "by the time I get them in college, they...").
The basic fact is that math and science curriculum is NOT decided on by the teacher. The teacher MUST follow the proscribed curriculum, or she (mostly it's women) will be fired. The curriculum is decided on by a) the school board, which is comprised of non-experts, political wannabes and parents who want more power & b) the Department of Education (common core and its assessment, PARCC).
In both cases, teachers have *zero* power to decide what should be taught. Literally zero. So to sit back and blame the teacher for 'poor' teaching is absurd. Believe me, if STEM teachers could decide on the course based on their students & what works, there is no way they'd be teaching what they're teaching.
Why does the media constantly promote a core falsehood? It is easy to blame teachers. But since teachers have no power in what they teach what on earth do we gain by bashing the teachers? For what? Failure to conform to an idiotic one-size-fits all curriculum? And how will that help? You could put Einstein up there & the teaching would be the same.
Ironically the blame is unscientific, unfounded on data and instead founded on anecdotes and personal biases ("my daughter's math teacher once...." "by the time I get them in college, they...").
The basic fact is that math and science curriculum is NOT decided on by the teacher. The teacher MUST follow the proscribed curriculum, or she (mostly it's women) will be fired. The curriculum is decided on by a) the school board, which is comprised of non-experts, political wannabes and parents who want more power & b) the Department of Education (common core and its assessment, PARCC).
In both cases, teachers have *zero* power to decide what should be taught. Literally zero. So to sit back and blame the teacher for 'poor' teaching is absurd. Believe me, if STEM teachers could decide on the course based on their students & what works, there is no way they'd be teaching what they're teaching.
Why does the media constantly promote a core falsehood? It is easy to blame teachers. But since teachers have no power in what they teach what on earth do we gain by bashing the teachers? For what? Failure to conform to an idiotic one-size-fits all curriculum? And how will that help? You could put Einstein up there & the teaching would be the same.
19
dcl
"The teacher MUST follow the proscribed curriculum, or she (mostly it's women) will be fired."
That must be like giving the lab rat a shock no matter which lever it pushes.
"The teacher MUST follow the proscribed curriculum, or she (mostly it's women) will be fired."
That must be like giving the lab rat a shock no matter which lever it pushes.
2
Excellent point, dcl. Teachers are, in a sense, victims of the educational establishment for the reasons you mention, but it's easier to point to the former as the problem. Then too, their trade groups, the unions, are focused on pay and job protection more than results, and can be also thought of as major obstacles to education.
Everything is driven by present and future employment. When the jobs do not directly dictate curriculum, then whatever is being taught is mostly useless, even when inspiring. What we have in the US now is simply not attractive for bright students, and repulsive for the rest.
Teachers are not to blame. They simply are not in the right jobs for this century, or for this country, and those who might be able to teach what's actually needed, are prevented from doing so.
Everything is driven by present and future employment. When the jobs do not directly dictate curriculum, then whatever is being taught is mostly useless, even when inspiring. What we have in the US now is simply not attractive for bright students, and repulsive for the rest.
Teachers are not to blame. They simply are not in the right jobs for this century, or for this country, and those who might be able to teach what's actually needed, are prevented from doing so.
3
Mr. Blow needs to learn that people categorized by race or ethnicity never, ever perform in comparable ways in tests of general intelligence, science, literature, writing or athletics. How many Asian and Jewish players were in the Super Bowl yesterday?
For at least four decades blacks and hispanics have had exceptionally high rates of social dysfunction, starting with an alarming rate of single parent families. Every study of that subject has shown high correlations of such dysfunction with poverty, emotional and behavioral problems, infant mortality, incarceration, crime, teen pregnancy, child abuse, sexual abuse, alcohol and substance abuse, and educational lags.
Given these problems it is fantasy to expect schools to make up gaps in exceptionally bad family situations. It has nothing to do with federal policy and school teachers can't be blamed for having difficulties educating children from these backgrounds.
Neither the government nor "white people" can invade the intimacy that produces fatherless black and hispanic children. Blow is barking up the wrong tree.
For at least four decades blacks and hispanics have had exceptionally high rates of social dysfunction, starting with an alarming rate of single parent families. Every study of that subject has shown high correlations of such dysfunction with poverty, emotional and behavioral problems, infant mortality, incarceration, crime, teen pregnancy, child abuse, sexual abuse, alcohol and substance abuse, and educational lags.
Given these problems it is fantasy to expect schools to make up gaps in exceptionally bad family situations. It has nothing to do with federal policy and school teachers can't be blamed for having difficulties educating children from these backgrounds.
Neither the government nor "white people" can invade the intimacy that produces fatherless black and hispanic children. Blow is barking up the wrong tree.
28
Well, it has been shown pretty clearly that what creates fatherless households is poverty and joblessness not interpersonal relationships, which is why so many working class households are now 'fatherless'. Poverty can be dealt with. And the level of poverty in the African American community is directly linked to white supremacist policies.
Whites actually have the highest rate of addictions so we can't chalk that up to the difference.
As for the IQ tests/ Superbowl comment, I've learned from numerous discussions on this subject that if you actually understood IQ,and inherited traits, you wouldn't have made such a comment. It is the equivalent of Jenny McCarthy talking about vaccines, it is pointless to discuss the facts because you don't understand the overlying structure those facts fit in the first place.
Whites actually have the highest rate of addictions so we can't chalk that up to the difference.
As for the IQ tests/ Superbowl comment, I've learned from numerous discussions on this subject that if you actually understood IQ,and inherited traits, you wouldn't have made such a comment. It is the equivalent of Jenny McCarthy talking about vaccines, it is pointless to discuss the facts because you don't understand the overlying structure those facts fit in the first place.
1
Disparities in STEM education can be traced back directly to differences in programming and funding in various school systems, and within systems. Here in Chicago, our top rated selective enrollment schools have a full range of AP courses, with most students participating. But neighborhood schools don't always offer APs, meaning that students who don't get one of the coveted selective enrollment slots, or who move to the district later in high school when those slots are filled, or who have logistical obstacles to traveling across the city to attend a non-local school, are stuck in schools that don't offer this advanced coursework. Even many suburban school districts don't offer AP courses. Small rural schools don't have the resources to offer APs either. And school systems don't all have the same level of rigor in coursework to prepare students for fields involving critical thinking and analysis.
The question isn't why blacks, Hispanics and females aren't going into STEM fields, the question is whether everyone is getting equally prepared for the possibility of going into STEM fields.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-05-30/news/ct-met-advanced-place...
The question isn't why blacks, Hispanics and females aren't going into STEM fields, the question is whether everyone is getting equally prepared for the possibility of going into STEM fields.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-05-30/news/ct-met-advanced-place...
8
A major part of this problem is cultural. Our society does not in general foster an interest in science. Some areas of our culture actively oppose science, such as fundementalist religion and far right politicians. People refer to scientists as "nerds", etc. Yet we live in the age of science, and ignore it at our peril.
10
Pursuit of engineering, math, physics, or other high-level STEM majors requires hard work and discipline from the student, coupled with some degree of aptitude. This type of delayed gratification lifestyle usually involves focused parental support and guidance throughout the pre-college years, and full cooperation and effort from the student. Not easy and not common.
It would help if we had a way to get truly excellent advanced math instruction to those high-school kids who have high aptitude for it. High schools can't hire the university-level teachers these kids really need.
One thing I have not seen mentioned in the comments is the dearth of scholarships for academically high-performing American high school students to encourage them to pursue science or math in college. If our country was really serious about encouraging American STEM graduates, we would see financial incentives before graduate school. Frankly, I think businesses would rather just hire foreign scientists and engineers, so they can pay them less, and our government is complicit in this.
Go to elite graduate schools in the sciences and you see multitudes of Asians, along with the sons of highly educated upper middle-class white people.
Yes, women in the sciences have been overlooked, intimidated, ignored, discouraged, and mistreated. It is inexcusable, so let's start doing better, shall we? I don't know what the answer is to get more black and Hispanic kids into STEM.
It would help if we had a way to get truly excellent advanced math instruction to those high-school kids who have high aptitude for it. High schools can't hire the university-level teachers these kids really need.
One thing I have not seen mentioned in the comments is the dearth of scholarships for academically high-performing American high school students to encourage them to pursue science or math in college. If our country was really serious about encouraging American STEM graduates, we would see financial incentives before graduate school. Frankly, I think businesses would rather just hire foreign scientists and engineers, so they can pay them less, and our government is complicit in this.
Go to elite graduate schools in the sciences and you see multitudes of Asians, along with the sons of highly educated upper middle-class white people.
Yes, women in the sciences have been overlooked, intimidated, ignored, discouraged, and mistreated. It is inexcusable, so let's start doing better, shall we? I don't know what the answer is to get more black and Hispanic kids into STEM.
9
My perspective comes as one who is Black that trained in and taught college math, statistics and research methods many years. Further, I have served as a science projects judge (grades 7 to 12) for more than 20 years at the impressive PA regional Delaware Valley Science Fair finals. I am teamed with other STEM trained judge officials to evaluate projects worthy of moving on to national level competition.
One observation I have made at the Science Fair is the insufficient presence of Black students with science fair final projects particularly at the high school level. When identified, I make an effort to be helpful with college preparation support and guidance. Further, there is only a small handful of Blacks who serve as science fair judges to help augment a visual presence and to possibly serve as important student role models. RG
One observation I have made at the Science Fair is the insufficient presence of Black students with science fair final projects particularly at the high school level. When identified, I make an effort to be helpful with college preparation support and guidance. Further, there is only a small handful of Blacks who serve as science fair judges to help augment a visual presence and to possibly serve as important student role models. RG
3
Why did you train in math, become a STEM-trained judge and become a role model? What about your fellow black students? What led you to STEM and led your peers away from STEM subjects?
But most of the young black males I see, when asked what they want to be when they grow up, reply "I'm going to play in the NFL", or "Play in the NBA". That's the message their getting, not that they should endeavor to be in a STEM field one day. How do you expect to counter that? For a child to do well in school, and in the greater society, A LOT of parental supervision is required in the home over a LONG period of time (decades).
13
Ah Charles!
The National Math and Science initiative is nothing more than a money making scheme for the same testing industry that is pushing Common Core, high stakes testing for all and enriching the testing profiteers. It originated in Texas, when Tom Luce failed to win the governor's race and turned his interest to education. Like the "Texas Miracle" that turned out to be a hoax and engendered the execrable NCLB that is currently destroying public schools across the country, particularly those with high populations of minority children living in poverty, NMSI is nothing more that stack ranking on the basis of AP scores. It has undoubtedly been a bonanza for the College Board, with all kinds of sales for testing programs, "vertical alignment" of curriculum, countless consultants and so forth. The motives of these folks is hardly benign. They have constructed a false meritocracy based on test scores.
All the money spent on this initiative would produce more kids interested in science and math if instead we lower class size across the board, stop wasting money on testing, stop evaluating teachers by their students' test scores and allow teachers to set kids' imaginations on fire by killing the focus on testing.
See the American Statistical Association here for why judging teachers based on test scores is a hoax: http://www.amstat.org/policy/pdfs/ASA_VAM_Statement.pdf
The National Math and Science initiative is nothing more than a money making scheme for the same testing industry that is pushing Common Core, high stakes testing for all and enriching the testing profiteers. It originated in Texas, when Tom Luce failed to win the governor's race and turned his interest to education. Like the "Texas Miracle" that turned out to be a hoax and engendered the execrable NCLB that is currently destroying public schools across the country, particularly those with high populations of minority children living in poverty, NMSI is nothing more that stack ranking on the basis of AP scores. It has undoubtedly been a bonanza for the College Board, with all kinds of sales for testing programs, "vertical alignment" of curriculum, countless consultants and so forth. The motives of these folks is hardly benign. They have constructed a false meritocracy based on test scores.
All the money spent on this initiative would produce more kids interested in science and math if instead we lower class size across the board, stop wasting money on testing, stop evaluating teachers by their students' test scores and allow teachers to set kids' imaginations on fire by killing the focus on testing.
See the American Statistical Association here for why judging teachers based on test scores is a hoax: http://www.amstat.org/policy/pdfs/ASA_VAM_Statement.pdf
6
Could our relatively poor position in the world when it comes to educating our children have something to do with the way we pay and respect teachers? Could it have something to do with the way children in our country are smothered with well advertised video games and silly social network connections leaving less time for serious study? Could it be the denigration of science and well educated people by ambitious politicians and popular culture?
We not only get what we pay for but what we value as a people. There was a time when teachers, scientists, engineers and the well educated in general were among the most respected members of society. It was a time the country was a leader in technology. Who do we look up to today: the ostentatiously wealthy entrepreneur and overpaid professional athlete and performer. No wonder we are mired in mediocrity.
We not only get what we pay for but what we value as a people. There was a time when teachers, scientists, engineers and the well educated in general were among the most respected members of society. It was a time the country was a leader in technology. Who do we look up to today: the ostentatiously wealthy entrepreneur and overpaid professional athlete and performer. No wonder we are mired in mediocrity.
11
I work for a scientific research organization in a politically liberal state. I don't have to wonder about subtle forms of discrimination against women scientists in the work place: The president of my board's first comment upon introduction of a recently hired young women scientist by her supervisor was: "Why have you been hiding this beautiful young women from me?" If I had been there, I probably would have lost my job. As long as we have entitlement and idiocy based on gender and race (and this cuts all ways), we will have problems recruiting the full range of qualified people into STEM and other fields.
8
I really wish that folks would stop suggesting that we need more STEM graduates. As a college professor, I encounter many students who lack interest in science, but who torture themselves in STEM majors because they think the STEM path will lead to big bucks. As several commenters have noted, there are many extremely talented young people with PhDs in STEM who cannot find jobs. Why on Earth would any employer hire a STEM grad who doesn’t even like science? Stop the madness! (Admittedly, my comment is off-topic as it does not address the race and gender segregation that is very real in science.)
19
"Is science education a new area of our segregation?"
Isn't this about the choices people make? You are obviously a bright, articulate person who had some interest in science, yet you chose a different path. To expect an homogeneous society is unrealistic given cultural, economic and regional differences. If you think more women and blacks should pursue stem careers propose a method of increasing their interest, don't blame segregation. What would it have taken to interest you in following that path?
Isn't this about the choices people make? You are obviously a bright, articulate person who had some interest in science, yet you chose a different path. To expect an homogeneous society is unrealistic given cultural, economic and regional differences. If you think more women and blacks should pursue stem careers propose a method of increasing their interest, don't blame segregation. What would it have taken to interest you in following that path?
8
In spite of our best efforts to reorganize the lives of others, those who do well in any field usually like what they do as well as have an aptitude to do it. Others: not so much? Where is the call for more male nurses? They could do the job, it is an honorable profession, and the money is good. So, why do men not enter that profession in the same numbers as women?
4
When I attended Pharmacy College in Saint Louis 50 years ago, women were only about ten percent of the student body. Now they are the majority. They discovered that they could make the same money as men and the hours that they would be required to work were very flexible. People can do what they want to do if they are willing to put out the effort.
5
Mr. Blow is mistaken. Liberal Arts students dominate US policy and Business. History and Government undergraduate students dominate banking, policy making etc. (and higher salaries; think revolving door). If you do not believe it, look at NYT. A writer (Mr. Blow) has opinions as to how Science can be taught. That in itself is the problem with STEM in US. Media dominates views, not respective field experts. And media does so by writing volumes about issues for which there may be just 2 to 3 sentences that need be jotted down.
Don't get me wrong. I love poetry and history or in anyways against English majors (good writers I believe are also very analytical).
But Mr. Blow is not the person I would like to learn from as to what can be done to help students who were segregated. Whatever may be the costs, I would rather listen to Ben Carson (even if I would disagree with him) than Mr. Blow. As I said media constantly gives the wrong candidate to speak volumes. Where are scientist who are writers?
Disclaimer: I studied Mechanical Engineering as an undergraduate and have graduate degree from Math and Industrial Engineering Department at Georgia Tech. I have been an amateur painter and love poetry.
Don't get me wrong. I love poetry and history or in anyways against English majors (good writers I believe are also very analytical).
But Mr. Blow is not the person I would like to learn from as to what can be done to help students who were segregated. Whatever may be the costs, I would rather listen to Ben Carson (even if I would disagree with him) than Mr. Blow. As I said media constantly gives the wrong candidate to speak volumes. Where are scientist who are writers?
Disclaimer: I studied Mechanical Engineering as an undergraduate and have graduate degree from Math and Industrial Engineering Department at Georgia Tech. I have been an amateur painter and love poetry.
4
The rest of the world might be moving ahead of the US in STEM subjects but, we're very well poised to dominate in Bible Studies, revisionist American history, and pseudo-sciences such as creationism, trickle-down economics, and treating diseases with shiny, pretty rocks.
17
I normally love Charles Blow's column, and read it avidly. Today, it seemed strange. Full disclosure, I'm in math, and have been a frequent hiring manager for recent grads in Silicon Valley, i.e. a tech manager who hires one section of the STEM field. You can't hire people who don't apply. Discrimination in the workplace occurs not when the percentage hired into a particular field differs from the percentage in the entire workplace, but when it differs from the constituency of the hiring pool -- the people eligible for the job.
Charles Blow gave the following statistics on STEM graduations for blacks (the statistics on other groups lacked side by side comparison of the numbers graduating and the percentage in the workforce): 11 percent of the college population, 7 percent of the STEM bachelors, 4 percent of the STEM master's, and 2 percent of the STEM doctorates. And 6 percent of the STEM workforce.
That not only doesn't look like the discrepancy of the pool differing from the discrepancy of the hired (the 1 percent difference is in the noise), if combined with the statistic that only half of these graduates are getting hired, it seems to indicate that only half of the majority population is getting hired as well. Is there something possibly wrong with the rosy notion that all STEM graduates are doing well in today's economy?
Charles Blow gave the following statistics on STEM graduations for blacks (the statistics on other groups lacked side by side comparison of the numbers graduating and the percentage in the workforce): 11 percent of the college population, 7 percent of the STEM bachelors, 4 percent of the STEM master's, and 2 percent of the STEM doctorates. And 6 percent of the STEM workforce.
That not only doesn't look like the discrepancy of the pool differing from the discrepancy of the hired (the 1 percent difference is in the noise), if combined with the statistic that only half of these graduates are getting hired, it seems to indicate that only half of the majority population is getting hired as well. Is there something possibly wrong with the rosy notion that all STEM graduates are doing well in today's economy?
66
"Is there something possibly wrong with the rosy notion that all STEM graduates are doing well in today's economy?"
Yup, it's wrong, and it's rosy. But it is the kind of feel-good myth that is used to paper over the present decline and failure in American science, engineering and manufacturing. Show me the jobs, and I'll show you the candidates: black, white and all shades in between. But, give me 20 years to grow them.
Yup, it's wrong, and it's rosy. But it is the kind of feel-good myth that is used to paper over the present decline and failure in American science, engineering and manufacturing. Show me the jobs, and I'll show you the candidates: black, white and all shades in between. But, give me 20 years to grow them.
5
I took the column to be saying the same thing you are. Blacks are behind in STEM education and, therefore, behind the job market as well.
And as others have pointed out and your position indicates, the jobs in STEM are in a large part computer jobs.
And as others have pointed out and your position indicates, the jobs in STEM are in a large part computer jobs.
1
HUXLEY'S "BRAVE NEW WORLD" . . .
...spoke about a different kind of "a future segregated by science." In this quite prescient book, Aldous Huxley spoke about pre-programming people before birth or even conception via genetic and other biological means to create diverse classes of humans to belong to certain classes and be responsible for certain behaviors.
When he wrote about this, it was thought to be a fantasy... But now so much of what was considered to be "just science fiction" no seems far more reasonable.
This could fall into the category of intentional discrimination using scientific method for pragmatic reasons. Of course, the ethics and morals involved would be more than questionable.
...spoke about a different kind of "a future segregated by science." In this quite prescient book, Aldous Huxley spoke about pre-programming people before birth or even conception via genetic and other biological means to create diverse classes of humans to belong to certain classes and be responsible for certain behaviors.
When he wrote about this, it was thought to be a fantasy... But now so much of what was considered to be "just science fiction" no seems far more reasonable.
This could fall into the category of intentional discrimination using scientific method for pragmatic reasons. Of course, the ethics and morals involved would be more than questionable.
1
You certainly would attract more STEM teachers to public schools if they could avoid tedious education courses by demonstrating proficiency in a test classroom.
6
By all means increase the quality and availability of STEM education and make sure the door to STEM-type jobs is wide open to those outside the loops of current privilege. But doing so at the expense of the humanities and the arts--as often happens--raises the question of what a STEM-savy generation that lived by the numbers would be like do once it grew rich and complacent.
2
I am a trained biologist who agreed to help a kindergarten teacher do a special science series for her students. Students were allowed to self-select for special electives offered at school. When I arrived to help, 14 of the students were boys and 3 were girls.
Where were the girls? I asked. Most of them signed up for yoga, the teacher replied. They're allowed to do that? I asked. While she agreed they shouldn't be, the purpose of the special classes was to allow kids to self select and explore their interests.
There you have it. It's not a government conspiracy or a misogynist plot. Girls self select out at a VERY early age. And we let them. By the time they're in high school and realize science pays more than cosmetology, they're likely behind on those critical math and science preqs like algebra and basic chemistry.
Through our PTA, I've tried to ask that parents be informed when children pick these special classes so when can discuss choices with our kids. The principal is dead against that and no one else sees what the big deal is. Then we wonder why there's a lack of female engineers and physicists?
Where were the girls? I asked. Most of them signed up for yoga, the teacher replied. They're allowed to do that? I asked. While she agreed they shouldn't be, the purpose of the special classes was to allow kids to self select and explore their interests.
There you have it. It's not a government conspiracy or a misogynist plot. Girls self select out at a VERY early age. And we let them. By the time they're in high school and realize science pays more than cosmetology, they're likely behind on those critical math and science preqs like algebra and basic chemistry.
Through our PTA, I've tried to ask that parents be informed when children pick these special classes so when can discuss choices with our kids. The principal is dead against that and no one else sees what the big deal is. Then we wonder why there's a lack of female engineers and physicists?
19
To call the current racial/gender disparity in Science "segregation" is false, inflammatory and ridiculous. No one is preventing anyone from becoming a scientist. In fact Universities bend over backwards to enroll black students (over more qualified whites and Asians). Please provide any proof at all that anyone was denied entry to a scientific field because of their race or gender.
How would Blow feel if some yoyo did a study on the NBA and declared that it is misogynist and racist due to the outsized ratio of blacks and no women? Perhaps to even the odds we should make white males wear a 20 pound weight on their back and black males a 40 pound weight?
This is just one more attempt by Blow to attempt to shift the blame for everything on "white privilege". This instead of telling blacks to stay in school, stay off drugs and stay out of jail.
How would Blow feel if some yoyo did a study on the NBA and declared that it is misogynist and racist due to the outsized ratio of blacks and no women? Perhaps to even the odds we should make white males wear a 20 pound weight on their back and black males a 40 pound weight?
This is just one more attempt by Blow to attempt to shift the blame for everything on "white privilege". This instead of telling blacks to stay in school, stay off drugs and stay out of jail.
20
Women's stories about subtle and unsubtle harassment in the workplace are not new, and have not gone away.
Our two sizes fit all education system (one for the rich and one for the poor) is not serving us well.
Wealthy school districts have state of the art computers. Poor schools have used out of date textbooks. Wealthy parents can help their children. Poor parents have to work two jobs to get by.
In addition, our political system seems to think they can test their way to knowledge. I think it's because it is cheaper than, you know, actually paying teachers properly so we get the best, and giving them respect (and turning those devices off so kids actually have a chance to pay attention.
Knowledge is a wonderful thing, but it first requires breaching the barriers of admitting that we don't already know. This is difficult; I remember well the first few times it happened: the most valuable lesson I ever learned but it was painful to let go and do my best instead of what was "safe". All too often now we have self-proclaimed "experts" denying real knowledge, preferring the political version that fits with their bias.
I don't have the answer, but I am sure that many of the "answers" today are too homogeneous to fit the wonders of the human spirit and curiosity, which have sustained the best of us through the ages.
Our two sizes fit all education system (one for the rich and one for the poor) is not serving us well.
Wealthy school districts have state of the art computers. Poor schools have used out of date textbooks. Wealthy parents can help their children. Poor parents have to work two jobs to get by.
In addition, our political system seems to think they can test their way to knowledge. I think it's because it is cheaper than, you know, actually paying teachers properly so we get the best, and giving them respect (and turning those devices off so kids actually have a chance to pay attention.
Knowledge is a wonderful thing, but it first requires breaching the barriers of admitting that we don't already know. This is difficult; I remember well the first few times it happened: the most valuable lesson I ever learned but it was painful to let go and do my best instead of what was "safe". All too often now we have self-proclaimed "experts" denying real knowledge, preferring the political version that fits with their bias.
I don't have the answer, but I am sure that many of the "answers" today are too homogeneous to fit the wonders of the human spirit and curiosity, which have sustained the best of us through the ages.
6
Teaching computer science must start in elementary schools. I teach fifth grade and worked with code.org. The tools are there, but teachers and schools need administrators to make this a priority like reading and math.
Don't forget that STEM workers can be in "surplus" -- I recall the Boeing engineers who were laid off in the 1960s, geologists who went without jobs for 4 or 5 years in the 1980s -- seems unthinkable to those without a lot of years of experience.
Further, we've made science pretty boring, no more Mr. Wizard explaining PV=nRT for football fans.
Further, we've made science pretty boring, no more Mr. Wizard explaining PV=nRT for football fans.
7
Far no one has written about one of the most basic requirements for success in almost any field: achievement motivation. An enormous body of research tells us that achievement motivation is based on several factors, one of the most important of which is the ability to delay gratification, to work toward a distant reward - a college degree in engineering four to six years in the future, for example. An individuals level of achievement motivation is set very early in life by his or her life experience. To be strongly achivement motivated one has to have grown up in an environment in which achievement that required immediate sacrifice or effort in the pursuit of a more distant or future goal reliably was rewarded.
For example, the choice children make when offered, as a reward for some task, a choice of a small chocolate now or a large piece of chocolate next week, can be predicted based on their level of achievement motivation. Those with a high level of achievement motivation will choose to delay gratification in the expectation of a larger reward later.
Some of us are taught to work hard in anticipation of that "big piece of chocolate" down the road. Welearn that our hard work and sacrifices will be rewarded later. We should perhaps consider what factors: culture, education, society, form that level of confidence about future rewards. Some children, some groups, have widely different levels of achievement motivation that influence their life choices. Why?
For example, the choice children make when offered, as a reward for some task, a choice of a small chocolate now or a large piece of chocolate next week, can be predicted based on their level of achievement motivation. Those with a high level of achievement motivation will choose to delay gratification in the expectation of a larger reward later.
Some of us are taught to work hard in anticipation of that "big piece of chocolate" down the road. Welearn that our hard work and sacrifices will be rewarded later. We should perhaps consider what factors: culture, education, society, form that level of confidence about future rewards. Some children, some groups, have widely different levels of achievement motivation that influence their life choices. Why?
6
Grouping so many professions under the STEM acronym is part of the problem. Science and engineering are very different and they require different personalities to be successful.
Science is about discovery. Engineering is about building. Both require creativity and confidence in expression. Factual knowledge and skill in technique are means to an end.
Children who have scientists or engineers as parents will learn this at home. What they hear at the dinner table is "look what we found" and "look what we built". They'll also hear the expression "what I think your teacher is trying to do here" when getting help with their math homework. Among other things.
They won't hear much about the excellence of the salaries. They'll learn that bosses often don't understand the significance of the work, or have bosses themselves that don't. They'll learn that lawyers and marketing departments and investors (while vital) all have their own interests and agendas, that good projects are often canceled, and that nothing is easy or straightforward. But they will also learn that in spite of all this, it's a rare privilege in life to be paid to discover or build.
Needless to say, they won't hear any of this in school. And they're unlikely to ever hear it in school until the educators ditch "STEM" and start talking about scientists and engineers.
Science is about discovery. Engineering is about building. Both require creativity and confidence in expression. Factual knowledge and skill in technique are means to an end.
Children who have scientists or engineers as parents will learn this at home. What they hear at the dinner table is "look what we found" and "look what we built". They'll also hear the expression "what I think your teacher is trying to do here" when getting help with their math homework. Among other things.
They won't hear much about the excellence of the salaries. They'll learn that bosses often don't understand the significance of the work, or have bosses themselves that don't. They'll learn that lawyers and marketing departments and investors (while vital) all have their own interests and agendas, that good projects are often canceled, and that nothing is easy or straightforward. But they will also learn that in spite of all this, it's a rare privilege in life to be paid to discover or build.
Needless to say, they won't hear any of this in school. And they're unlikely to ever hear it in school until the educators ditch "STEM" and start talking about scientists and engineers.
5
There is no evidence that our educational system is populated at the grade school level with people with actual experience in science and engineering; no chops equals irrelevant education. We've gone even further by eliminating vocational schools and courses, and their typically non-academically-qualified (therefore non-union) instructors who actually do have job skills.
The mantra of STEM sounds good, but is fundamentally a fail in process. The jobs are simply not there, and there are no signs that they will be, at least in the US.
The mantra of STEM sounds good, but is fundamentally a fail in process. The jobs are simply not there, and there are no signs that they will be, at least in the US.
2
Blow is the quintessential "progressive" - loves science and math but doesn't want to put in the effort to learn and understand them.
7
Right. There are no "progressives" in the medical and scientific fields. Ugh.
2
Let m say up front: I am a science guy. Several of us at a large medical center have been trying to bring in more black students for training. The main problem is that there are relatively few good candidates, either for medical school or for graduate training in bio-medical research. One of the main and most consistent sources has been historically black undergraduate colleges in the South. Whether this is because of their demanding admission requirements in the first place, or because of their outstanding programs, I do not know. Likely it is a mixture of both. However, the reasons for this success rate need to be investigated so that this success can be built upon.
6
We blithely accept an acronym-STEM--because it is cutsie and convenient. But it puts math at the end, which is not its proper place.
2
Often the worst schools, mostly concentrated in minority districts, get the least inspiring teachers, who are particularly important in STEM subjects. And as Blow mentions the STEM-trained can make more money in nonteaching roles, so talented STEM teachers are even rarer than those in other areas. Of course this becomes a vicious circle: even fewer STEM-qualified in the next generation.
2
Many high-tech companies in the United States look overseas to fill talent gaps in their employment ranks by hiring skilled immigrants, often sponsoring the visas these workers need to live in this country. This can create an unpleasant fallout effect, the pushing out of older workers with higher salaries and young American graduatess who would have taken those jobs but are not as cheap as the young immigrants.
True that Skilled immigration is important for the United States, where we have a large Baby Boomer generation approaching retirement and leaving the workforce. But the same organizations wanting us to encourage youth to enter STEM careers are also the organizations advancing immigration policies which are designed to drive-down the lifetime earnings of STEM workers. We need to find a balance.
True that Skilled immigration is important for the United States, where we have a large Baby Boomer generation approaching retirement and leaving the workforce. But the same organizations wanting us to encourage youth to enter STEM careers are also the organizations advancing immigration policies which are designed to drive-down the lifetime earnings of STEM workers. We need to find a balance.
4
Why don't we start with how pop culture glorifies professional athletes, musicians and actors. Who can blame young African-Americans, when the images they see never show academics as a path to success? If my parents hadn't forced me to stay focused on school, I'd have over-invested in my mediocre skills at football and playing guitar. As a society, we have our priorities wrong.
7
It is obvious that there are not enough women and minorities in STEM fields. However, Mr. Blow may be inverting cause and effect. Charles, are you old enough to remember Sputnik? I was in grade school when the Russians launched Sputnik, and we HAD TO CATCH UP. By the time I was in junior high, every bright kid was asked by his/her teachers, "What field of science do you want to go into?" At that time, I wanted to be an actress or a poet, but my mother had the good sense to tell me that I had to make a living, and my father was an engineer and he taught me math that was well in advance of my grade.
And so, despite being a woman, I majored in math, later in economics, and have supported myself in these fields. I probably don't make as much as a man, but I get by comfortably. And I DO very much enjoy my work.
Unfortunately, many countries (primarily in Asia) are ahead of us in STEM education, but it doesn't seem to bother us anymore.
And so, despite being a woman, I majored in math, later in economics, and have supported myself in these fields. I probably don't make as much as a man, but I get by comfortably. And I DO very much enjoy my work.
Unfortunately, many countries (primarily in Asia) are ahead of us in STEM education, but it doesn't seem to bother us anymore.
1
It would have been helpful, Mr. Blow, if you had indicated what portion of the US population actually works in STEM fields to give us an idea of how likely the average American is to know someone working in those areas.
How many STEM professionals commenting here actually know anyone who is black, Hispanic, and poor, or white and poor right now at this moment --someone you actually talk to or, more important, listen to talk about their lives? Most Americans of any color don't know anyone in the STEM fields unless they are family members, friends, or teachers of math and science. or are providing them particular services, which few STEM professionals do outside the health care professions.
The way work and social life is organized in this country, most STEM professionals are locked away in professional ghettos that the average person has no access to on a daily basis. The poor are far more likely to know someone with an anti-science bias based in poorly informed religious belief than they are anyone who can solve differential equations. This is also true of lower middle class people of any color in this country. Plus, poor teaching in STEM fields has a larger discouraging effect than poor teaching in other areas in which it is possible to read and write oneself to higher literacy.
How many STEM professionals commenting here actually know anyone who is black, Hispanic, and poor, or white and poor right now at this moment --someone you actually talk to or, more important, listen to talk about their lives? Most Americans of any color don't know anyone in the STEM fields unless they are family members, friends, or teachers of math and science. or are providing them particular services, which few STEM professionals do outside the health care professions.
The way work and social life is organized in this country, most STEM professionals are locked away in professional ghettos that the average person has no access to on a daily basis. The poor are far more likely to know someone with an anti-science bias based in poorly informed religious belief than they are anyone who can solve differential equations. This is also true of lower middle class people of any color in this country. Plus, poor teaching in STEM fields has a larger discouraging effect than poor teaching in other areas in which it is possible to read and write oneself to higher literacy.
3
We definitely do not live in a STEM culture.
One of the things that makes American science strong is the different styles, attitudes, and interests that each immigrant group has brought to the style of research. (That's a long story.) I've been struggling, for most of a lifetime, to find the specific gifts that, for instance, Blacks and Hispanics can bring to research style and thus motivate them. I'm still very open for suggestions as to the best approach.
1
And the more that young people, of all races and genders, see scientists fitting a profile, namely male and Caucasian or Asian, the more they deduce that they do or not identify with the profession. In my family, there are two women scientists, but they do lab research, as do many women in the field, so their affiliation is invisible to those looking to shape their education and career.
1
The question for the long haul is whether this country will be able to compete successfully in the scientific arena with the rest of the world. it is doubtful that the race or gender of the participants will be a determining factor. The issue will be the ability to accomplish, not political correctness.
7
Mr. Blow comes to this argument with his conclusion (racism is everywhere in America, even in the STEM field) and then proceeds to look for evidence to support this. What he does not understand is that equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome. Moreover, his own numbers undermine his theory about "minorities and women" being underrepresented and allegedly barred by those evil white males (always the boogeyman): Asians, who are 5% of the population, are 17% of all those in STEM Fields, more than 3 times their population (whites are only slightly overrepresented)! I guess in Mr. Blow's narrative of racial grievance, Asians no longer count as a minority, just as George Zimmerman had to be white.
I don't recall Mr. Blow lamenting that the NBA, NFL, or NY department of Corrections were "too black" in a diverse America. There was no article railing against the overrepresentation of women as public school teachers. And the Hispanic dominance of our immigration policy (its now officially "their" issue) is taken for granted to be the new normal. And there is certainly no lamenting the lack of "political diversity" at our Leftist universities.But if there is slightly too many whites somewhere, then assume it to be a hostile place, hit the racial panic button to get the grievance industry of Sharpton and Jackson out into the streets. The problem with Mr. Blow is that, like most Liberals, he judges people based on race and gender, while accusing his opponents of doing the same.
I don't recall Mr. Blow lamenting that the NBA, NFL, or NY department of Corrections were "too black" in a diverse America. There was no article railing against the overrepresentation of women as public school teachers. And the Hispanic dominance of our immigration policy (its now officially "their" issue) is taken for granted to be the new normal. And there is certainly no lamenting the lack of "political diversity" at our Leftist universities.But if there is slightly too many whites somewhere, then assume it to be a hostile place, hit the racial panic button to get the grievance industry of Sharpton and Jackson out into the streets. The problem with Mr. Blow is that, like most Liberals, he judges people based on race and gender, while accusing his opponents of doing the same.
18
There are lots of reasons why the best and brightest may not enter the sciences. If you are really the best and brightest AND a minority or woman, the world is truly your oyster. And there are activities that PAY MORE, involve more interaction with PEOPLE and the ideas of PEOPLE, than the ideas and activities of the sciences. Would a minority or woman of true talent prefer to enter science research, with the enormous uncertainties of outcome and funding, or medicine, business, or another field that puts you OUT in the world, instead of further and further INSIDE relatively arcane fields of study. Just a thought, but I do think that the best and brightest of minorities and women do have the world at their fingertips. My graduate school cohort wanted investment banking or hedge fund management, not economics or one of the more 'intellectual' fields for that very reason.
7
Your graduate school cohort wanted to make money. Scientists usually want to improve the world. Very different interests. Money people are often respectably bright but almost none of them are brilliant or genius level.
2
@elained
Yes. Sounds like Harvard.
I hear you, Elaine. And yet there are some people who remain inexplicably drawn to the life of the mind, and the pursuit of truth and discovery. But I agree it is a precarious life with fewer and more uncertain rewards.
Yes. Sounds like Harvard.
I hear you, Elaine. And yet there are some people who remain inexplicably drawn to the life of the mind, and the pursuit of truth and discovery. But I agree it is a precarious life with fewer and more uncertain rewards.
3
My mother and aunt used to give an award at the University of Pennsylvania's Moore School of Engineering. The majority of winners were women and Asian. I am a bit unclear what Mr. Blow would do about the disparity in STEM degrees. There is already affirmative action.
7
An observation from the front lines that supports your argument: As a biology professor at an urban university, it is a great frustration to me that the percentage of black and Hispanic students in our program (both undergraduate and graduate students) is significantly below their representation in the population as a whole. This disparity happens before they get to us. Part of the solution to the problem requires that our society promotes STEM starting with pre-schoolers. we can only work with what we have, and not enough come to us. Interestingly, women outnumber men in our program, but as you point out, this is not reflected in the their representation in STEM jobs after graduation. I don't know where they go.
3
Ironic. Your deepest foray into science, promoting a position that was completely specious. Did anyone else here notice that Reagan's "Star Wars" has, in fact, become the technological standard of the modern military?
4
Wanting a well paying job will not sustain you in a STEM career. By age 5 I knew I wanted to be a scientist, and the majority of STEM people I went to University with (which is the largest "statistical sample" I've been personally involved with) had the same experience. Which is essential because how you think as a scientist is very different from the majority.
Unless you come into contact that have that distinctive cognitive development it's difficult to learn it. During the "Space Race" you had good STEM teachers in public schools, because it paid well. Now a person with STEM training avoids education as a career.
Where segregation is forming, is the reality that if a child doesn't have parents in a STEM field, the early developmental steps won't be there.
Unless you come into contact that have that distinctive cognitive development it's difficult to learn it. During the "Space Race" you had good STEM teachers in public schools, because it paid well. Now a person with STEM training avoids education as a career.
Where segregation is forming, is the reality that if a child doesn't have parents in a STEM field, the early developmental steps won't be there.
3
Evidently one can become "overqualified" when one tries to integrate tech methodologies outside the lab.
1
Do not fear! The science deniers will self segregate themselves as the congressional Republican Party majority where they will do not much of anything useful- forever. Meanwhile, true scientists and engineers will easily find work in the military/industrial establishment designing better and better weapons for us to kill other humans. As for psychologists, they'll do just fine thinking up new, more effective forms of torture. Science is safe! Yahoo!
2
Expose kids to art and music at a young age and their love/respect for science will grow from there. If you grow up steeped in the beautiful, there's a point at which your brain goes CLICK and you realize that science is beautiful too.
And if your kid hates art and music, get him/her a lab coat, cuz lab coats look cool.
And if your kid hates art and music, get him/her a lab coat, cuz lab coats look cool.
The phenomena is not just a problem for women and blacks but throughout most demographics in our country.
Let's face it, studying STEM, if done properly, is not something you can bluff your way through.
So, it is any surprise that STEM training is a largely a failure in our country when we have created several generations of Americans that believe that competition for a goal is an anathema which is enabled by such warped notions such as getting "participant" prizes in youth sports, team learning that holds back the best student or the expectations of receiving high marks for watered-down college courses that challenge no one, except the lazy, the incurious and the academically inept among us.
Let's face it, studying STEM, if done properly, is not something you can bluff your way through.
So, it is any surprise that STEM training is a largely a failure in our country when we have created several generations of Americans that believe that competition for a goal is an anathema which is enabled by such warped notions such as getting "participant" prizes in youth sports, team learning that holds back the best student or the expectations of receiving high marks for watered-down college courses that challenge no one, except the lazy, the incurious and the academically inept among us.
9
For those who bemoan the emphasis on STEM at the expense of liberal and fine arts, I can explain this with one anecdote. I know a number of individuals, including one of my daughters, who found STEM courses too difficult and changed to a liberal arts major. I don't know anyone who found the liberal arts too difficult and therefore changed majors to a STEM field.
Notwithstanding the desire of some to do so, no one has yet repealed the law of supply and demand. The demand for STEM graduates exceeds the supply. The reverse is true for the liberal arts.
Notwithstanding the desire of some to do so, no one has yet repealed the law of supply and demand. The demand for STEM graduates exceeds the supply. The reverse is true for the liberal arts.
8
My two children are in a highly gifted school. They are easily excited to learn and care enormously about grades. In other words, you can't imagine less of a barrier to learning. They both loved science. Then the teacher left. Within a few weeks of the arrival of the new teacher they had lost interest. I asked my six year old daughter why she didn't like science any more. She said, "Because she just stands at the front and talks." What did you like about it before? "We did fun projects and experiments," ha said. I'd suggest that the absence of women - and the relatively small proportion of men - going into the sciences is 100% to do with the way we teach it. Gloomy and grim is what it is. And until we teach science in a way that illuminates the wonder of the world, we'll continue to fail.
5
Just wanted to point out one fact: Usually companies/universities will bundle minorities to include Asians, South Asians, Hispanics and Blacks. STEM fields have a disproportionate high percentage of Asians and South Asians being represented so the minority report looks good but has a very poor percentage of Hispanics and Blacks being represented, as Charles points out, correctly, in this article.
1
Minorities need to look up to others who have succeeded in STEM-related positions. Neil Degrasse Tyson (from NYC) is a very good example of that. Nothing, Math nor Science, is that difficult if one is exposed early and practices intently. The beauty of a STEM job is that even if you are an athlete you have something to do that is beneficial to society after you turn 40.
Once all American schools offer the same level of quality education offered by the Bronx High School of Science, then we can argue is all about "personal effort". Sadly, this kind of school is one of very, very few in our country that offers the kind of education our kids deserve. And that includes high income suburban public schools where teachers have to teach to the lowest common denominator with less and less money because we, Americans, do not like to pay taxes.
4
I'll make a couple of observations about workers in STEM fields, based on directly hiring hundreds of scientists and engineers over the years.
1. Young people pursue STEM degrees for two main reasons: They love the subject, and/or they want a job. As a boss I have a very easy time telling which of my employees have loved science from a young age. They are almost always better at their jobs than those who just chose the major to get a job.
2. The great majority or people I know for whom science or engineering was a calling had mentors in their youth; often parents who got involved with their kids as preschoolers. If one wishes to make fluency in science as seamless as one's native language, there is no substitute for learning science right along with a first language.
Science majors are difficult; the careers commensurately rewarding. But only to those who love the subject. I took plenty of liberal arts courses along with my math and physics majors in college. There was really no comparison in difficulty. Languages (Russian, Chinese and German), history, and literature courses were just recreation, just fun diversions. I love science and always have. I can't imagine doing all the years of school I did, just to get a job.
And I can't imagine I'd love the sciences so much if I did't have parents who introduced me to science at a very young age. Neither parent was a scientist. They just knew where the library was and how to check out books.
1. Young people pursue STEM degrees for two main reasons: They love the subject, and/or they want a job. As a boss I have a very easy time telling which of my employees have loved science from a young age. They are almost always better at their jobs than those who just chose the major to get a job.
2. The great majority or people I know for whom science or engineering was a calling had mentors in their youth; often parents who got involved with their kids as preschoolers. If one wishes to make fluency in science as seamless as one's native language, there is no substitute for learning science right along with a first language.
Science majors are difficult; the careers commensurately rewarding. But only to those who love the subject. I took plenty of liberal arts courses along with my math and physics majors in college. There was really no comparison in difficulty. Languages (Russian, Chinese and German), history, and literature courses were just recreation, just fun diversions. I love science and always have. I can't imagine doing all the years of school I did, just to get a job.
And I can't imagine I'd love the sciences so much if I did't have parents who introduced me to science at a very young age. Neither parent was a scientist. They just knew where the library was and how to check out books.
11
Every time this subject comes up I wonder what exactly constitutes a "STEM job." Is surgeon a "STEM job"? Obviously a lot of scientific research goes into figuring out what can go wrong with our bodies and how to fix them, but surgeons with scalpels in their hands are craftsmen, not scientists.
What about pipefitters? They use more math in a day than most white collar professionals need in a month; they work from drawings that engineers produce and frequently have trouble understanding themselves. But somehow I imagine that people who knows nothing about this profession would sneer at the possiblity that someone who never went to college could possibly belong to the psuedo-elite that "STEM" has come to represent.
There are only a few million research and engineering jobs in this country. For those of us in that world, the high growth assumed in this editorial stands utterly at odds with what we see. The number of positions defined as "electrical engineer," for example, decreased by more than 10% over the past decade. Hard science has trapped many young Ph.Ds in low-paying postdoc positions indeterminately.
The country needs more black, Hispanic, and female engineers (and scientists, and many other things), but I do not think that our job market needs or wants more engineers and scientists in an absolute sense. The primary goal should be to increase wages and bargaining power for all employees, "STEM" or not, rather than trying to join an uncertain lifeboat.
What about pipefitters? They use more math in a day than most white collar professionals need in a month; they work from drawings that engineers produce and frequently have trouble understanding themselves. But somehow I imagine that people who knows nothing about this profession would sneer at the possiblity that someone who never went to college could possibly belong to the psuedo-elite that "STEM" has come to represent.
There are only a few million research and engineering jobs in this country. For those of us in that world, the high growth assumed in this editorial stands utterly at odds with what we see. The number of positions defined as "electrical engineer," for example, decreased by more than 10% over the past decade. Hard science has trapped many young Ph.Ds in low-paying postdoc positions indeterminately.
The country needs more black, Hispanic, and female engineers (and scientists, and many other things), but I do not think that our job market needs or wants more engineers and scientists in an absolute sense. The primary goal should be to increase wages and bargaining power for all employees, "STEM" or not, rather than trying to join an uncertain lifeboat.
11
The real issue is that big tech firms hire most of their STEM employees from elite universities. So, if you want to be a mobile database coder for some shovel-ware startup, then I doubt anything but the wrong degree will hinder you. If you want to work at Facebook, Google or Microsoft, you'll need to be smart, not just a hard worker bee.
3
The problem in America has not changed, Mr. Blow. "Math" and science education are approached from a male perspective and most girls and minority students do not relate to the way it's taught. Change education techniques and change outcomes.
1
This is a total cop out - there is no male or female perspective to math. One of my best HS math teachers was a woman.
8
njglea: This is ridiculous nonsense: please tell me what a "male perspective" on mathematics and science would be. Better yet, what would be a female or minority perspective?
Science and mathematics are as close as we get to objective knowledge of how the physical world actually works, and thus opinion and "perspective" are not characteristic of these subjects. A computer for example neither "knows" nor "cares" whether a man or woman programmed it, whether white hands or black hands typed the code. The correct solution to an equation doesn't depend on the gender or race of the person solving it.
Science and mathematics are as close as we get to objective knowledge of how the physical world actually works, and thus opinion and "perspective" are not characteristic of these subjects. A computer for example neither "knows" nor "cares" whether a man or woman programmed it, whether white hands or black hands typed the code. The correct solution to an equation doesn't depend on the gender or race of the person solving it.
7
Yes Mr. Blow and the NBA is 90% AA and the NFL 70%. Why have you never written an article about this distressing situation? Also lumping women and AA together completely destroys your argument. Only complete partisan hacks believe the war on women is anything more than a campaign technique rather than a real lack of opportunity for women. Why is that progressive can't accept that most women just don't want these types of jobs even if they can do it? It can all be explained by the World Series of Poker. The first price is ten million dollars and yet every single player at the final table year after year is male. Why is this? Is it evidence of discrimination? Hardly anyone with 10k can enter. It is simply that men are bigger risk takers and believe they can win despite the odds against them. So until to have a better explanation of the situation in Poker please stop pretending anyone is preventing AA or women from getting science degrees.
10
Is science education a new area of our segregation?
No more so than the NFL and the NBA are areas of segregation. I know, not a serious answer, but consider how unserious the question, if the word "segregation" has real meaning.
Perhaps Mr Blow might ask why Asians, who make up ~5% of our population, make up ~12% and 5% of STEM professionals. He could research family culture, study habits, deferred gratification and prioritization of tasks. Then he might use his bully pulpit to prod minorities to emulate the more effective characteristics of Asian Americans in their effort to improve the quality of life for themselves and their families.
Mr Blow's citation of participation statistics to suggest a process that segregates against minorities is disingenuous at best.
No more so than the NFL and the NBA are areas of segregation. I know, not a serious answer, but consider how unserious the question, if the word "segregation" has real meaning.
Perhaps Mr Blow might ask why Asians, who make up ~5% of our population, make up ~12% and 5% of STEM professionals. He could research family culture, study habits, deferred gratification and prioritization of tasks. Then he might use his bully pulpit to prod minorities to emulate the more effective characteristics of Asian Americans in their effort to improve the quality of life for themselves and their families.
Mr Blow's citation of participation statistics to suggest a process that segregates against minorities is disingenuous at best.
12
Many people don't want to go into a field where their ability to create, innovate, or solve problems is part of their every-day affairs. They just want to go to work, do WORK, and go home again. I can relate. The things I do in my free-time are much more important to me than my work, so I have a job that puts food on the table and a roof over my head, and that's about it. I COULD go into STEM if I really wanted, but I just don't want to feel like that field dominates my life. I have yet to meet a STEM person who doesn't spend almost every second of every day thinking about their work, or DOING it. I have no envy for these people and no desire to be counted among them.
1
I don't think anyone should do what they don't love. Why don't you get a job doing what you love in your free time? I assume there're a few things and some will pay...
Mr. Blow,
If we wait for others to take steps towards improving this situation, we are going to be waiting for a long, long, long time. Many people talk about the subject but the few opportunities available today (STEM camps/programs) are a few thousand dollars or most programs offered by other organizations are run /taught by the usual STEM-demographic. Sadly our public schools systems, where tax-payers do not like to spend any more than the minimally amount necessary to keep their property values and school boards political agendas usually trump any other interest, are not much of an option either. As a female STEM professional part of a minority group, I have decided to start my own program. It doesn't mean much for our girls and our minority kids when big women CEOs get in front of a lot of people to talk about "how they did it and how you kids can do it too" when there is nothing waiting for them back home. I urge parents, specially mothers and minorities, involved in STEM-related careers to take action. Start with a small group, maybe some of your kids' friends in your living room, which is what I am planning to do until I can afford a place where my daughter and her friends can get together and explore their STEM interests guided by someone like them, involved in the field and without having to wait for anybody else to do it for them.
If we wait for others to take steps towards improving this situation, we are going to be waiting for a long, long, long time. Many people talk about the subject but the few opportunities available today (STEM camps/programs) are a few thousand dollars or most programs offered by other organizations are run /taught by the usual STEM-demographic. Sadly our public schools systems, where tax-payers do not like to spend any more than the minimally amount necessary to keep their property values and school boards political agendas usually trump any other interest, are not much of an option either. As a female STEM professional part of a minority group, I have decided to start my own program. It doesn't mean much for our girls and our minority kids when big women CEOs get in front of a lot of people to talk about "how they did it and how you kids can do it too" when there is nothing waiting for them back home. I urge parents, specially mothers and minorities, involved in STEM-related careers to take action. Start with a small group, maybe some of your kids' friends in your living room, which is what I am planning to do until I can afford a place where my daughter and her friends can get together and explore their STEM interests guided by someone like them, involved in the field and without having to wait for anybody else to do it for them.
Mr. Blow is correct to focus our attention on the impact of future economic inequality due to the lack of a rich STEM curriculum for students. At Mount Saint Michael Academy in the Bronx we have addressed this need with two rigiorous programs focused on future medical careers for our students. Our Robotics program is following these initiatives. 48% of our students recieve financial assistance (scholarships and/or financial aid) to enure their participation and success in these programs. A terrific educational program focused on terrific students.
Many of us with science degrees are still struggling to find work, regardless of race or gender, and most of us science-types are in the 99% with everyone else. Getting a STEM degree is great, but it does not mean that there will be employment in your field.
Maybe we'll all just be consultants to each other? Yeah, yeah, that will work!
Maybe we'll all just be consultants to each other? Yeah, yeah, that will work!
4
Yes, this is *so* important for all of us & the data support increasing diversity in STEM.
The more diverse a group of problem-solvers, the broader the range of ideas/responses to new problems & the less likely group-think is to occur. Diverse problem solving teams outperform more homogenous, but high ability, teams. See e.g.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15534225
The more diverse a group of problem-solvers, the broader the range of ideas/responses to new problems & the less likely group-think is to occur. Diverse problem solving teams outperform more homogenous, but high ability, teams. See e.g.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15534225
It's one thing to recognize the statistical imbalance, and another thing to understand its cause. That's the starting point. It's probably not discrimination; students choose their own majors. So, why do so few minorities choose STEM? Role models? Proximity of employment? Quality of early education? Until we understand why, it will be difficult to find a solution.
One curious set of numbers that surprised me is the relative paucity of Asians in STEM. I would have thought that they would have outnumbered the whites percentage-wise. Interesting...
One curious set of numbers that surprised me is the relative paucity of Asians in STEM. I would have thought that they would have outnumbered the whites percentage-wise. Interesting...
In my area of science out of thousands of people from all over the world that get together for scientific conferences, there really is just ONE black guy. One. From a top US university. There are many Indians and East Asians and Middle Easterns. But only one black guy. Clearly something is wrong with that picture.
1
Mr. Blow. Read a book on statistics AND the philosophy of statistics. Sometimes you let the cart lead the horse.
1
While I agree with Mr Blow about the importance of science and mathematics education, I do think it's important not to oversell STEM as a career. A RAND study found that there is not a shortage of scientists and engineers (at least not at the graduate level), but that the aversion among US citizens to science careers is actually a very rational response to job prospects, pay, and working conditions.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html
Health care fields, the professions (JD, MBA, MD, DDS), finance, and other fields really do pay far better than most science positions. Attrition rates in elite STEM PhD programs, which require considerable and rigorous undergraduate coursework just to apply, often approach 50%. At elite professional schools such as law or medicine, attrition rates are typically below one half of one percent.
Scientists can bring amazing things to the world, but from a personal, financial viewpoint, it may just not make sense as a career path. Mathematically talented students have far better options than STEM.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html
Health care fields, the professions (JD, MBA, MD, DDS), finance, and other fields really do pay far better than most science positions. Attrition rates in elite STEM PhD programs, which require considerable and rigorous undergraduate coursework just to apply, often approach 50%. At elite professional schools such as law or medicine, attrition rates are typically below one half of one percent.
Scientists can bring amazing things to the world, but from a personal, financial viewpoint, it may just not make sense as a career path. Mathematically talented students have far better options than STEM.
12
By the lack of concern and empathy for others, I'd say our society over values STEM disciplines to the detriment of the whole society. My stepson is a physics genius but possesses no social skills whatsoever including basic manners and concern for his father. We doom ourselves if we depend on STEM alone.
2
And we just offended every person who works/have worked/ is interested in STEM. Do your really, really think his interest in STEM is what made him this way?
1
The difficulty with and emphasis on STEM -- an acronym that's chanted like a mantra in urban school districts around the country -- is that, in separating these subjects from others no less vital, such as history or literature, it tends to create an airless space of nose-to-the-grindstone-ism in which not only the humanities but the joy of learning itself are tossed to the wayside. The result, especially when the program doesn't have the skilled faculty and resources it needs, it something like "Hoop Dreams" -- a few new wiz kids get through, and the rest wake up to find out that they don't have the basic knowledge and preparation they needed to major in any science or tech field in college -- what they had was hot air and hype.
4
I always think, this problem is not a black and white problem - it is economics and culture problems. STEM studies are difficult and requires strong motivation and work ethics - culture plays more important role than race. In this country there are multiple cultures are in play - for poor Asia kids, education is the only way to get out of poverty, where as poor Black or Hispanic kids it is not so. The question is why? The old culture of Asia always give more importance to knowledge and money is next to knowledge. Where as blacks and Hispanics are not culturally on the same plane. The important question is whether the culture of blacks and Hispanics will change in near term - most likely not.
The question of poverty is not only linked with STEM - there is another way to get out of poverty - "Enterprinoirship". Blacks and Hispanics are culturally very strong on Enterprinoirship and they should focus on this strength. The future has more opportunities for this class than doing jobs with STEM degree. Successful STEM students always move towards Enterprinoirship. Let us help the blacks and Hispanics understand their strength and not feel handicapped.
The question of poverty is not only linked with STEM - there is another way to get out of poverty - "Enterprinoirship". Blacks and Hispanics are culturally very strong on Enterprinoirship and they should focus on this strength. The future has more opportunities for this class than doing jobs with STEM degree. Successful STEM students always move towards Enterprinoirship. Let us help the blacks and Hispanics understand their strength and not feel handicapped.
3
We have plenty of STEM graduates. Any one applying for a job will tell you.
Its a very hard degree to obtain and isn't for the faint of heart.
It starts with parents and high schools.
If there's not a push from the family, the easier path is taken.
I work with a very diverse set of engineers and scientist. Every color and language from all over the world. Even for us, its difficult to convince children its a great field to choose. I'm sure its even tougher in a family worrying about everything else,but their education.
We need more students, but we need better ways to convince them its a good career path. Employers just want capable engineers and scientists, but often they treat them like throw away objects and there's little humanity. Even I often wonder if its the best choice, and I love what i do.
Its a very hard degree to obtain and isn't for the faint of heart.
It starts with parents and high schools.
If there's not a push from the family, the easier path is taken.
I work with a very diverse set of engineers and scientist. Every color and language from all over the world. Even for us, its difficult to convince children its a great field to choose. I'm sure its even tougher in a family worrying about everything else,but their education.
We need more students, but we need better ways to convince them its a good career path. Employers just want capable engineers and scientists, but often they treat them like throw away objects and there's little humanity. Even I often wonder if its the best choice, and I love what i do.
5
Mathematics is a self structuring language built upon defined relationships of cellular elements. English is an ad hoc collection of the most evocative words from all other languages of the world.
If the language of mathematics can get worked into English too, perhaps this much-feared schism can be avoided.
If the language of mathematics can get worked into English too, perhaps this much-feared schism can be avoided.
It sounds like the deniers and naysayers are having their way with STEM subjects. Stem does not appear on any Congressional Hot List because it most likely offends coal producers, et al.
What I'm thinking is that the problem is exacerbated by indifference to and antagonism spawned by big money and a government who doesn't want to push anything that offends the source of political money.
What I'm thinking is that the problem is exacerbated by indifference to and antagonism spawned by big money and a government who doesn't want to push anything that offends the source of political money.
Here in Washington DC, where the large majority of public school students (almost overwhelmingly at High School level) are African American, we're spending $500 million on a new National Museum of African American Culture and History. Our newest High School building, Dunbar, cost $128 million, is in one of the most expensive property markets in the region, and uses more than half of the site for a beautiful football stadium where the team plays to crowds that would impress a small Texas town (the building itself was needed and a great investment). Oh, and we just came up with over $150 million to pay for a new soccer stadium...
My point? D.C. does not have an interactive science museum for kids, and there are no specialized schools with strong STEM programs like Brooklyn Tech or Stuyvesant in NYC. It's not a matter of resources, but choices. As long as African American society, and frankly the rest of us, continue worshiping at the altar of sports and celebrities we'll continue to miss the opportunity to invest in the 5, 10 and 15 year olds living in a rough neighborhood who might have been inspired to become the next STEM PhD or breakout Silicon Valley entrepreneur.
My point? D.C. does not have an interactive science museum for kids, and there are no specialized schools with strong STEM programs like Brooklyn Tech or Stuyvesant in NYC. It's not a matter of resources, but choices. As long as African American society, and frankly the rest of us, continue worshiping at the altar of sports and celebrities we'll continue to miss the opportunity to invest in the 5, 10 and 15 year olds living in a rough neighborhood who might have been inspired to become the next STEM PhD or breakout Silicon Valley entrepreneur.
4
If anything, this is a tribute to the power of the rich NFL owners and runners to get a whole community to make sure they do not run out of "raw material" for their hugely successful (an un-taxed) enterprise. Heck of a brainwashing job.
Recently, I found myself in an elevator at the University of Maryland School of Medicine. There were four students in the elevator with me. All female. One was white, one was black, one was Chinese, and one was Indian. I was the token white guy. Mr. Blow asks, “Is science education a new area of our segregation?” Maybe, but it is likely to segregate those who understand the facts and methods of science from those who do not.
3
What jobs? What salaries? I understand that Mr. Blow is trying to make a point about racial and gender inequality but I really must point out an error in his premise here.
When people say "STEM" jobs, they really mean computer science; not math, not physics, not chemistry and certainly not biology. I have a Ph.D. in chemistry from an elite institution and can say firsthand how bleak the job market is for research scientists. Research positions are the manufacturing jobs of our day - outsourcing is decimating American science. If you think a science degree is a ticket to a high-paying job, please talk to an eighth-year postdoctoral researcher who probably makes less money than a bus driver.
When people say "STEM" jobs, they really mean computer science; not math, not physics, not chemistry and certainly not biology. I have a Ph.D. in chemistry from an elite institution and can say firsthand how bleak the job market is for research scientists. Research positions are the manufacturing jobs of our day - outsourcing is decimating American science. If you think a science degree is a ticket to a high-paying job, please talk to an eighth-year postdoctoral researcher who probably makes less money than a bus driver.
302
I can confirm that.
The good paying jobs people are talking about when they say STEM are really the computer jobs.
The good paying jobs people are talking about when they say STEM are really the computer jobs.
5
I understand your point about research positions for science majors although know people, like my friend who graduated with an Masters in Marine Biology and later a D.Phil. in Zoology who combined his research studies with computer modeling thus providing himself with a cross-cultural background in both tech as well as pure science. He was an early developer of utilizing computer science in order to best manage national wildlife preservation based on computer models. There is a great demand for this type of academic background which suits the commercial needs of both government and private enterprise.
2
Insourcing, via H1B visas, is what is decimating American science graduates and both political parties are equally culpable for yet another assault on the American worker.
1
I worked with a female engineer in the 1980s and she said the abuse in the engineering program towards women was almost untenable, and went on the say that other women changed their majors because of it.
That brings us up to the 21st century. My niece was very bored in high school and was accepted into a program whereby qualified students could leave their high school and study at their nearest state university. She entered SUNY Stonybrook and started taking advanced aeronautical engineering classes. She was so well thought of she was given a desk in one of the graduate students' offices. She went back to high school for her senior year so she could graduate with her class, and the following year she started at UC Berkeley as an engineering major. Her classes were almost all male, and both students and professors continually harassed her. I'm sorry she wasn't tough enough to stick it out, but that's just not her. She changed to political science and graduated with high honors.
That brings us up to the 21st century. My niece was very bored in high school and was accepted into a program whereby qualified students could leave their high school and study at their nearest state university. She entered SUNY Stonybrook and started taking advanced aeronautical engineering classes. She was so well thought of she was given a desk in one of the graduate students' offices. She went back to high school for her senior year so she could graduate with her class, and the following year she started at UC Berkeley as an engineering major. Her classes were almost all male, and both students and professors continually harassed her. I'm sorry she wasn't tough enough to stick it out, but that's just not her. She changed to political science and graduated with high honors.
118
Thanks for this comment! Many of the commenters have no knowledge of the rampant racism and sexism that exists in White male-dominated fields like the sciences.
2
Berkeley, off all places, is engaging in gender discrimination!? This is shocking. Where's the outrage? Where's NOW? Are they aware of the plight of female students attempting to major in STEMs at Berkeley?
1
I am reading a lot of denial and minimization of racism as a factor in the low numbers of minority STEM majors and grads. Sure many of these same commentors are indeed not inherently racist individuals but I am also reading the same old "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" thinking that insists that there is no connection between the legacy of slavery, segregation, and yes, racism. How many of these commentors have ever worked in our unfunding and unequally funded public schools in the last twenty years. The schools on the higher income part of town have more resources than the schools in the poor communities. Some communities have actually redrawn school districts to exclude lower income children and families, and those people not like themselves. I come from an upper middle class family of origin, white, two parents, and not effected by unemployment or chronic disease or illness. I had every advantage - travel, art classes, piano lessons, tennis and golf lessons, and someone to drive me to my summer job at the mall. I wasn't brilliant, just the nice daughter of a well-like man with lots of contacts. Is it hard to believe that I had a significant leg up on life than the kids who did not? I am not saying that individuals do not have a role in the educational and career outcomes but it is disingenuous to maintain that racism and economic inequity do not play significant roles as well.
4
Karen: slavery was a long time ago -- there is not a living person whose GRANDPARENTS ever even knew slavery.
And who is at fault for segregated schools? Who created segregated districts? who benefits from segregated schools? who ended bussing? who has created a system where schools are funded by property taxes, which by necessity means that those with the most costly housing have the best schools?
And who is at fault for segregated schools? Who created segregated districts? who benefits from segregated schools? who ended bussing? who has created a system where schools are funded by property taxes, which by necessity means that those with the most costly housing have the best schools?
1
Teaching in a Humanities department at a private research University here are a few more anecdotes. I hear from STEM students everyday. 1. The STEM professoriate doesn't want to teach the first two years of courses. In faculty meetings they routinely propose watching free versions on line from other Universities and then testing students. They call their first tier of courses "weeding" because they mean to fail as many as possible. This is openly discussed. 2. The real growth of knowledge in STEM subjects raises the price of admission, the first few courses are voluminous, difficult, and, mostly importantly, taught as rote learning. Assignments, memorization, and repetition we are nearly all...it is boring and taught at light speed, according to very bright students. 3. The STEM professoriate complains that American students are ill-prepared in comparison to the 23% of our undergraduates originating from East Asia (the majority of whom have no interest in becoming Americans but use the system to return home to good jobs) 4. Those students that survive the STEM introductions are case studies in burn out and dissatisfaction. When they arrive for one of my introductory courses as juniors and seniors none of them can write (because they haven't had to since the Freshman writing course), none have read a book of any importance in college, and they still don't think there is a job in America for them because they know such jobs are largely outsourced. So?
3
For those initially declaring college majors in STEM classes, attrition rates are quite high, and analyzing all the demographics gets tricky: http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2014/2014001rev.pdf . There are gender disparities, income disparities (hence racial), and more. Some of the statistics I see regarding employment are a bit different than what are given in Mr. Blow's essay http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-24.pdf )--but the patterns are similar.
We know that some of the educational disparities start at a very early age and are based on socioeconomic stratification. But how do we help those students who are older, who need stronger science and math skills? Some ongoing programs in Chicago (and probably elsewhere) may be showing a way forward: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/opinion/sunday/intense-tutoring-can-cl... . Are we willing to commit the resources? Will these experiments translate to other arenas?
We know that some of the educational disparities start at a very early age and are based on socioeconomic stratification. But how do we help those students who are older, who need stronger science and math skills? Some ongoing programs in Chicago (and probably elsewhere) may be showing a way forward: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/opinion/sunday/intense-tutoring-can-cl... . Are we willing to commit the resources? Will these experiments translate to other arenas?
There are two quite different things being discussed here. One is the fact that American children are falling behind in science. The other is the disparity (may I use the neutral word difference) between certain communities and others.
They are not the same. Working for equality and working for better American education are different goals. They support each other to a point, but only to a point.
To use an analogy - if US peach production is low, it may be a mistake to say, "It is because Maine is not growing enough peaches." Should we perhaps pay some attention to producing a Chinese Einstein?
Ultimately an analytical mind and a slogan oriented mind are different and see things differently. But it is only an analytical mind which can actually solve problems. Slogans create a faux utopia which we never actually reach.
Our well meaning commentator Charles Blow offers slogans, and he is applauded by readers who believe in the same slogans. But what is needed is thought and not slogans. Perhaps we need more jobs which are not in STEM fields.
They are not the same. Working for equality and working for better American education are different goals. They support each other to a point, but only to a point.
To use an analogy - if US peach production is low, it may be a mistake to say, "It is because Maine is not growing enough peaches." Should we perhaps pay some attention to producing a Chinese Einstein?
Ultimately an analytical mind and a slogan oriented mind are different and see things differently. But it is only an analytical mind which can actually solve problems. Slogans create a faux utopia which we never actually reach.
Our well meaning commentator Charles Blow offers slogans, and he is applauded by readers who believe in the same slogans. But what is needed is thought and not slogans. Perhaps we need more jobs which are not in STEM fields.
1
One can apply mathematics to make slogans more effective. Mr. Blow clearly has linguistic talent. Math is a language too, structured out of logic, not emotion. A good slogan combines logic and emotion.
Science has so far outstripped our culture that those with an advanced scientific background can already see apocalyptic battles ahead with the general culture over matters that far outstrip hiring for women and minorities. We're talking about the need to dismantle the grip theistic religion has over the public imagination, not just in the US but throughout the world; we're talking about the rise of artificial intelligences which will far outstrip our mental capacity and will rule over us long before our legal system can even comprehend what their rights should be; we're talking about biological revolutions which will make hybrid humans and new species, once again posing questions our culture and law are utterly unequipped to answer. Jobs aren't even an important matter compared to these issues; we need to discover philosophy and discard religion more quickly than almost anyone can imagine if we're to survive the secrets science has unlocked for us...
I'm an engineer working at a national research lab in Boulder that has the distinction of having two Nobel laureates, both in physics, on staff. I'll tell you why no one goes into STEM fields in this country: These two Nobel-prize winners split a $1.2M award. $600,000 for the most prestigious prize in all of science would be an insulting bonus for any typical Wall Street financier. Or the amount of money some NFL players makes in one game. See the problem?
Coincidentally, last Friday we were having a meeting talking about hiring a Ph.D. physicist and someone brought up the fact that the job description we have is close enough to that of Wall Street physicists and mathematicians (yes, they do get employed there as top-level analysts) that we probably couldn't afford them; i.e., we can't compete with Wall Street salaries. Unless we're lucky enough to get someone with a conscience who cares more about their science than making a fortune. Add to that the subtle racial and sex biases minorities face. The contrast in national priorities and cultural values couldn't be more stark.
Coincidentally, last Friday we were having a meeting talking about hiring a Ph.D. physicist and someone brought up the fact that the job description we have is close enough to that of Wall Street physicists and mathematicians (yes, they do get employed there as top-level analysts) that we probably couldn't afford them; i.e., we can't compete with Wall Street salaries. Unless we're lucky enough to get someone with a conscience who cares more about their science than making a fortune. Add to that the subtle racial and sex biases minorities face. The contrast in national priorities and cultural values couldn't be more stark.
7
Access to research tools is considered adequate compensation for physicists.
2
"Mine was a fancy research project — like a 3-D opinion piece." Ha: great description!
I read your stats about STEM participation by race which show alarmingly low rates of participation by African Americans and females. But In my view (which is likely not substantiated), I think they need more time to catch up. Just as it took decades for females to break down barriers in the legal profession, it will likely take some time for people who aspire to science to rush the doors.
In the meantime, there are a lot of jobs ancillary to science that demand an understanding of it, it not a practical application. Take science writing, for example: a huge and growing field that is gender and color neutral (the majority of science writers are female). If a nonscientist like I was (one course of biology, period, in high school summer session) and geology in college can make it in medical communications, anyone can.
Students often find they choose the fields they naturally excel in or are attracted to because of great teachers. Perhaps the reasons why so may black kids don't pursue science is the fault of their schools, where such things aren't encouraged, and role models are few. The same goes for women. While I think we've moved away from the "females play dumb to attract boyfriends" culture of the 50s and 60s or the "be a nurse not a doctor" of the 70s, today's students are pretty practical: canvass the field of post-education jobs, and tailor your education to that.
I read your stats about STEM participation by race which show alarmingly low rates of participation by African Americans and females. But In my view (which is likely not substantiated), I think they need more time to catch up. Just as it took decades for females to break down barriers in the legal profession, it will likely take some time for people who aspire to science to rush the doors.
In the meantime, there are a lot of jobs ancillary to science that demand an understanding of it, it not a practical application. Take science writing, for example: a huge and growing field that is gender and color neutral (the majority of science writers are female). If a nonscientist like I was (one course of biology, period, in high school summer session) and geology in college can make it in medical communications, anyone can.
Students often find they choose the fields they naturally excel in or are attracted to because of great teachers. Perhaps the reasons why so may black kids don't pursue science is the fault of their schools, where such things aren't encouraged, and role models are few. The same goes for women. While I think we've moved away from the "females play dumb to attract boyfriends" culture of the 50s and 60s or the "be a nurse not a doctor" of the 70s, today's students are pretty practical: canvass the field of post-education jobs, and tailor your education to that.
2
It looks like most tech companies in the US under employ whites as a % of the population.
I don't have time to research a fabulous source, but this seems more useful that the USA Today article cited:
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/diversity-in-tech/
Who is overrepresented? Asians. Is that because whites are discriminating against themselves, in order to favor Asians? I don't think so. Asians are hugely overrepresented, as a %, in almost all tech companies.
Perhaps the question should be, how is it that Asians are able to be so amazingly successful, in the face of very real discrimination, in these fields? They don't get extra help in school, quotas in college appear to work against them - what are they doing, that allows them to succeed? That's the question we need to ponder.
I don't have time to research a fabulous source, but this seems more useful that the USA Today article cited:
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/diversity-in-tech/
Who is overrepresented? Asians. Is that because whites are discriminating against themselves, in order to favor Asians? I don't think so. Asians are hugely overrepresented, as a %, in almost all tech companies.
Perhaps the question should be, how is it that Asians are able to be so amazingly successful, in the face of very real discrimination, in these fields? They don't get extra help in school, quotas in college appear to work against them - what are they doing, that allows them to succeed? That's the question we need to ponder.
14
Actually, I think it very possible that whites are discriminating against themselves in order to favor Asians.
1
My first comment suggested that it is time for Charles Blow to listen to an expert on "race/ethnicity", Kenneth Prewitt, former Director of the US Census Bureau.
Prewitt says in the final chapter of "What Is Your Race?" that we cannot discuss topics such as Charles Blow's topic for today by continuing to use as the single important variable something as crude and archaic as "race".
Prewitt says we must do as other more advanced countries do, base our research on SES data (Prewitt uses American Community Survey Data). Thus the present discussion would be framed in these terms with skin color being a minor variable.
Hard to understand? Consider the Obama daughters. Seen in SES terms, what would you predict for their future educational and achievment levels?
Contrast that with predictions if you know nothing about them except that the USCB says they are African Americans.
The top reader recommendeds all say-fix American education. Without that, not a chance of progress. Then focus on providing absolutely equal access for any person with a specific set of qualifications - drive, intelligence, goal-to that education. There is the problem to be solved.
If we only discuss in terms of "race" groups we will get nowhere. Racism is forever and the way to deal with that is to create better conditions for those who can benefit from those conditions.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Prewitt says in the final chapter of "What Is Your Race?" that we cannot discuss topics such as Charles Blow's topic for today by continuing to use as the single important variable something as crude and archaic as "race".
Prewitt says we must do as other more advanced countries do, base our research on SES data (Prewitt uses American Community Survey Data). Thus the present discussion would be framed in these terms with skin color being a minor variable.
Hard to understand? Consider the Obama daughters. Seen in SES terms, what would you predict for their future educational and achievment levels?
Contrast that with predictions if you know nothing about them except that the USCB says they are African Americans.
The top reader recommendeds all say-fix American education. Without that, not a chance of progress. Then focus on providing absolutely equal access for any person with a specific set of qualifications - drive, intelligence, goal-to that education. There is the problem to be solved.
If we only discuss in terms of "race" groups we will get nowhere. Racism is forever and the way to deal with that is to create better conditions for those who can benefit from those conditions.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
3
Blow asks some good questions. More need to be asked. My hypothesis is that part of the problem is that most schools fail to bring science alive by offering initial insights that can fire up interest. And schools fail to show kids that you can work in science without being a genius (because things are becoming so specialized.) Schools also fail to explain the links between computing and science; in fact, research "in silico" is changing the world. Schools also need to offer more "bite-sized looks into science" instead of requiring a big upfront commitment to long, complex courses.
To fire up interest, schools need to start providing some short courses and/or seminars that provide insights into he real world, and show kids that science is cool and will be full of jobs. For one recent example, tell them about the Obama Admin's precision medicine initiative and its facets. Also, offer more chances - in non -STEM courses - to read great books that weave together science and real life. The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks is wonderful on science and society. Or, give them chapters from a range of science books. For example, The Brain That Changes Itself includes wonderful chapters that use a person's journey through brain disease issues to show and tell how creative scientists challenged orthodoxy and created cures for conditions once thought incurable. Have them read part of Silent Spring. No doubt there are lists of great books about real people in real science.
To fire up interest, schools need to start providing some short courses and/or seminars that provide insights into he real world, and show kids that science is cool and will be full of jobs. For one recent example, tell them about the Obama Admin's precision medicine initiative and its facets. Also, offer more chances - in non -STEM courses - to read great books that weave together science and real life. The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks is wonderful on science and society. Or, give them chapters from a range of science books. For example, The Brain That Changes Itself includes wonderful chapters that use a person's journey through brain disease issues to show and tell how creative scientists challenged orthodoxy and created cures for conditions once thought incurable. Have them read part of Silent Spring. No doubt there are lists of great books about real people in real science.
1
"Is science education a new area of our segregation?"
I want to say something that, on its face, would be controversial, but not so much if one stops to think about it.
The answer to the question posed by the column is yes and, in part, this is true because of self segregation. (It can be encouraged by historic discrimination, but that's another story.)
There is a culture of discouragement within the poorer in our society and that includes blacks, Hispanics and poor whites. The father who discourages his sons or daughters from any thought of accomplishment is close to a cliche in movies and books about southern whites: "You will never amount to nuthin'!"
Schools often reenforce this culture. In modest size schools across the nation, the kids from the "better families" (those with money or parents with professional positions) are well known and encouraged. Those who are not from such backgrounds are not.
In my high school in Pa,, this cultural sorting was known as tracking. It has since been largely abolished, only to surface once again as "gifted and talented" programs and AP classes.
If someone doesn't believe they can accomplish anything, they are not likely to accomplish much. Believing the opposite, of course, does not in any way guarantee better results, but the road to a STEM or other valued fields begins with the first step, which in turn begins with belief: "I can do this."
How do we create and encourage a culture of potentialities in young minds?
Doug Terry
I want to say something that, on its face, would be controversial, but not so much if one stops to think about it.
The answer to the question posed by the column is yes and, in part, this is true because of self segregation. (It can be encouraged by historic discrimination, but that's another story.)
There is a culture of discouragement within the poorer in our society and that includes blacks, Hispanics and poor whites. The father who discourages his sons or daughters from any thought of accomplishment is close to a cliche in movies and books about southern whites: "You will never amount to nuthin'!"
Schools often reenforce this culture. In modest size schools across the nation, the kids from the "better families" (those with money or parents with professional positions) are well known and encouraged. Those who are not from such backgrounds are not.
In my high school in Pa,, this cultural sorting was known as tracking. It has since been largely abolished, only to surface once again as "gifted and talented" programs and AP classes.
If someone doesn't believe they can accomplish anything, they are not likely to accomplish much. Believing the opposite, of course, does not in any way guarantee better results, but the road to a STEM or other valued fields begins with the first step, which in turn begins with belief: "I can do this."
How do we create and encourage a culture of potentialities in young minds?
Doug Terry
3
I'm sorry to see what seems to me a fall-off in Black/Hispanic and female interest in science. A generation or so ago when I was actively in the work force, it seemed to me that many Black men were chemists and many Black women if not Phd's, had used their college degrees to get good jobs working in various scientific labs. Perhaps then it was the novelty of having more doors open to them due to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Young people today of any race and sex are coddled both at home and in school with very little asked of them. For some, even putting their own dirty clothes in a hamper is considered a "chore." School have got to stop teaching to the lowest common denominator and rewarding even the slightest accomplishment. Surprisingly, such policies harm girls more than boys because in the early grades, girls on the average are better students. What these girls see however are children being rewarded for reading Green Eggs & Ham while they've read all of Harry Potter and have received little more than a nod from their teachers. All of this falls harder on minority students because studies have shown that teachers expect less from Black and Hispanic students than they do from white students. Coincidentally teachers expect more from Asian students than they do white students. That should tell us all that the more that is expected, the more that is achieved.
6
As a scientist, I've observed that interest in science and research tends to run in families (just as religious affiliation does). A female engineer I know, reflecting on gender disparities in science, suggested that having a parent who shares a love of science is perhaps the key predictor of whether a child (regardless of sex) ultimately takes an interest in science. Though it is not nearly sufficient, it is often necessary. Increasing diversity in science, and US science achievement more generally, may require creative approaches to providing science mentors for young children who might not otherwise have them.
1
Three points.
First, teaching of science at pre-college level is generally quite poor, especially because most teachers are not well trained.
Second, a STEM career is very hard. It's very hard to do anything with a bachelor in physics or even a Master's; a PhD is preferred. But a PhD is very difficult, has a huge risk (of failure) and takes too many years. And, once you get it, you have to go through a hard post-doc career. There are some fields where the situation is better, but the basic point remains - a long and arduous career with delayed payoff. Being a lawyer or a doctor is much more attractive from a professional point of view.
Third, science is not valued by society and certain fields are openly attacked.
I am a working scientist, but I come from Europe with a very different culture. As it is, if my children wanted to follow in science I'd actively discourage them from certain fields where the prospects for a burnout are high and the chance to have a normal family life are low.
First, teaching of science at pre-college level is generally quite poor, especially because most teachers are not well trained.
Second, a STEM career is very hard. It's very hard to do anything with a bachelor in physics or even a Master's; a PhD is preferred. But a PhD is very difficult, has a huge risk (of failure) and takes too many years. And, once you get it, you have to go through a hard post-doc career. There are some fields where the situation is better, but the basic point remains - a long and arduous career with delayed payoff. Being a lawyer or a doctor is much more attractive from a professional point of view.
Third, science is not valued by society and certain fields are openly attacked.
I am a working scientist, but I come from Europe with a very different culture. As it is, if my children wanted to follow in science I'd actively discourage them from certain fields where the prospects for a burnout are high and the chance to have a normal family life are low.
12
We also have a shortage of qualified and enthused science and math teachers. At least of this is due to the fact that arcane teacher union rules do not allow school districts to pay more to attract science and math teachers. Creating and maintaining magnet schools which encourage science and math instruction and where teachers are rewarded more for offering that level of instruction are criticized as being elitist.
4
Unions do not "determine" salaries. School boards do and tax payers do. Education is this country is financed by tax payers. School boards, as their representatives, determine how much these tax payers are willing to pay their teachers. If a town, represented by their school board, is not willing to pay more than $41,000 a year for a science teacher with a masters degree while the pharmaceutical industry is offering same person twice as much, how is this the union's fault? This is America, you get what you pay for but we do not want to pay more taxes so we can afford better teachers..let's blame the unions.
Sorry Rosie, your comments miss the mark
The unions in many jurisdictions insist that all teachers be paid on the same grid based on experience and educational credits. They have repeatedly thwarted any attempt to treat e.g. kindergarten teachers differently from high school math teachers. The unions are resistant to any differentiation of people or departure from the existing system
The unions in many jurisdictions insist that all teachers be paid on the same grid based on experience and educational credits. They have repeatedly thwarted any attempt to treat e.g. kindergarten teachers differently from high school math teachers. The unions are resistant to any differentiation of people or departure from the existing system
3
Rosie, what planet do you live on?
Come on -- if the taxpayers won't pony up, the union will STRIKE.
I live in the Rustbelt Midwest. The average salary here is $36,000. The average TEACHER earns $88,000. New teachers start, at age 22 with zero experience. at $50,000. This is for a six hour day (by contract) and a 180 day year. That means 11 weeks of paid vacation the first year and every year after, until you retire at age 52 with a giant pension windfall worth $3 million.
Show me any worker in any other field, who earns even $50K (let alone $88K) for a six hour day -- who can never be fired -- who has automatic tenure -- who gets 14 weeks paid vacation (11 weeks in summer, 2 at Christmas, 1 at Easter) -- who gets every legal holiday, 4 "conference days" AND 8 snow days (that do not have to be made up!). And who gets out at 2:30PM each day.
It IS the union's fault. They are greedy and they care more about their money and power than about children. Just ask Albert Shankar! ("I'll care about children, when children pay union dues!")
Come on -- if the taxpayers won't pony up, the union will STRIKE.
I live in the Rustbelt Midwest. The average salary here is $36,000. The average TEACHER earns $88,000. New teachers start, at age 22 with zero experience. at $50,000. This is for a six hour day (by contract) and a 180 day year. That means 11 weeks of paid vacation the first year and every year after, until you retire at age 52 with a giant pension windfall worth $3 million.
Show me any worker in any other field, who earns even $50K (let alone $88K) for a six hour day -- who can never be fired -- who has automatic tenure -- who gets 14 weeks paid vacation (11 weeks in summer, 2 at Christmas, 1 at Easter) -- who gets every legal holiday, 4 "conference days" AND 8 snow days (that do not have to be made up!). And who gets out at 2:30PM each day.
It IS the union's fault. They are greedy and they care more about their money and power than about children. Just ask Albert Shankar! ("I'll care about children, when children pay union dues!")
3
I believe Mr. Blow when he says "...I'm not a science guy..." and that he simply looks at the numbers. I have many friends with STEM educations who work in industry and I myself currently work at a university. I notice two big differences in the physical sciences. One is that students who major in the physical sciences disproportionately come from upper-middle class households. That by itself explains much of the difference in people who start as a STEM major. The other is that students who begin majoring in a STEM field have already gained experience in studying by themselves, although this is less so than when I was a student. Such independent study makes it easier for a student to succeed in a STEM field, which are less social and group-oriented that the social "sciences," humanities and the arts. These two factors, not prejudice, account for almost all the differences in outcomes. As to prejudice against women and ethnic minorities, neither my friends who work in industry nor I have seen anything of the sort. It is simply not good business, either in industry or university, to pick the less talented person. What IS the case is a strong preference for graduates of universities that are perceived to be "the best," which miltates against African American and Hispanic students. Such preferences do not lessen the chances of women getting jobs, and my experience suggests the main barrier to women choosing a STEM major is the social pressure (on women) against such majors.
7
When I went to my suburban high school, many decades ago, an African American male who did well in school was labeled by his peers as an "Oreo"; black on the outside, white on the inside. This peer pressure, within the African American community, caused many young African American men to under-perform in school. When my sons went to their integrated (15% African American) suburban high school, they saw the same thing.
When I attended back to school night at my sons' school at the beginning of each school year, I noticed fewer and fewer African American parents in the Honors and AP classes, as the years went by. The classes became almost exclusively white and Asian. I also tried to recruit kids for a young engineering club, open to all, with a similar ethnic breakdown. This is a terrible tragedy, a waste of talent which locks minority children, and later adults, into lower paying jobs. Unfortunately, much of this is self imposed by the minority community. I recognize that much of this is due to the legacy of racism, but the minority community has to address this itself, no one can do it for them.
When I attended back to school night at my sons' school at the beginning of each school year, I noticed fewer and fewer African American parents in the Honors and AP classes, as the years went by. The classes became almost exclusively white and Asian. I also tried to recruit kids for a young engineering club, open to all, with a similar ethnic breakdown. This is a terrible tragedy, a waste of talent which locks minority children, and later adults, into lower paying jobs. Unfortunately, much of this is self imposed by the minority community. I recognize that much of this is due to the legacy of racism, but the minority community has to address this itself, no one can do it for them.
13
The numbers that Blow presents, specifically the first "working in the field" would probably look quite a bit different if only those in the biological sciences and medicine would be included. More like 50-50. Nonetheless, when grant money ran out, after 5.5 years obtaining a PhD, 2.5 years as a post-doc, and 14 years in academia, I left. Part of the reason being that I was real tired of being a woman biochemist in departments filled with male chemists. A double whammy. Now, I edit/rewrite manuscripts for scientists whose first language is not English. Doesn't matter what the biochemical/chemical subject is. I help get their papers published (when the science is "good") and the authors are usually grateful, in part I believe, because I work through editing services and my identity is not known. Very different from when I worked in academia. There, if an organic chemist wanted to be insulting, he would sneer that I was nothing but a physical chemist, and if a physical chemist wanted to be insulting, he would sneer that I was nothing but an organic chemist.
7
Two different comments.
I worked in military defense at a prestigious corporate research lab on DARPA contract for Reagan Star Wars. We all knew it was theoretically impossible to get the necessary energy in space for those lasers.
I now work at a company that is hiring 30 H-1B visa people from China and India while we have people who don't have the education to do those jobs.
We can't find the money to fix poverty but we can find the money to pay for incarceration - $30,000 plus per person per year and for how many years?
We are the richest country on the planet but rank 17 in education.
On the other hand, we spend the same as the next ten countries combined on military defense.
We get what we pay for.
I worked in military defense at a prestigious corporate research lab on DARPA contract for Reagan Star Wars. We all knew it was theoretically impossible to get the necessary energy in space for those lasers.
I now work at a company that is hiring 30 H-1B visa people from China and India while we have people who don't have the education to do those jobs.
We can't find the money to fix poverty but we can find the money to pay for incarceration - $30,000 plus per person per year and for how many years?
We are the richest country on the planet but rank 17 in education.
On the other hand, we spend the same as the next ten countries combined on military defense.
We get what we pay for.
221
I wonder if the political agenda of one particular socio-economical group well financed by its Koch's godparents have anything to do with this? Why would they care about education rankings when they send their kids to private schools, those kids get admitted to the best schools as "heritage students" regardless of their intellect and then live off the trust funds? What do they care about the educational level of their workforce when they can hire cheap H1Bs? There is no incentive for this ruling class to improve anything that doesn't affect them directly, especially now that they have almost a billion dollars to spend tricking the poor souls part of the 99% who vote for them to continue voting against their own interest under the delusion that one day they will be part of this 1% elite.
3
Charles - Perhaps if your company took out that filter in incoming resumes, the one where it rejects any qualified applicant over the age of 45, you would find an abundance of qualified, experienced US citizens to hire.
3
'...I now work at a company that is hiring 30 H-1B visa people from China and India while we have people who don't have the education to do those jobs...'
Is the high unemployment rates of American STEM workers just a delusion then?
Is the high unemployment rates of American STEM workers just a delusion then?
2
I see this as a symptom of a much bigger problem, namely the lack of access to quality education in public schools in inner cities.
When I've gone into some of the poorest and blackest neighborhoods in my area to teach technology skills, what stood out for me was this: The kids really really wanted to learn these skills, and understood exactly what a difference it could make. And their parents really really wanted their kids to learn these skills, because they knew how much of a difference it would make. From what I could see, parents were absolutely prepared to do whatever it took to get their kids started down the path of STEM. The problem was that when we started getting to the part that involved doing some of the math, we would frequently discover that they couldn't follow it. They were trying their best, and they mostly had the rote memorization down needed to pass tests, but they couldn't follow what, for example, multiplication actually means and why you'd want to do it. In addition, we knew full well that regardless of what they learned, they didn't have the equipment they needed at home to practice their skills.
STEM work and education offers a real chance of self-improvement, but we definitely need to figure out why some who have the brain to do it fail to learn it.
When I've gone into some of the poorest and blackest neighborhoods in my area to teach technology skills, what stood out for me was this: The kids really really wanted to learn these skills, and understood exactly what a difference it could make. And their parents really really wanted their kids to learn these skills, because they knew how much of a difference it would make. From what I could see, parents were absolutely prepared to do whatever it took to get their kids started down the path of STEM. The problem was that when we started getting to the part that involved doing some of the math, we would frequently discover that they couldn't follow it. They were trying their best, and they mostly had the rote memorization down needed to pass tests, but they couldn't follow what, for example, multiplication actually means and why you'd want to do it. In addition, we knew full well that regardless of what they learned, they didn't have the equipment they needed at home to practice their skills.
STEM work and education offers a real chance of self-improvement, but we definitely need to figure out why some who have the brain to do it fail to learn it.
3
It is ironic that the article is about lack of STEM training and there is one simple example of it in the article. The sidebar has listed percentages of men, women and minorities in STEM occupations, which is helpful, except that it doe not add up to 100%. This minor error is an example of how mediocre the country's general math and science training are. Why would any one want to make a career out of something that is so weakly taught in our schools?
Its worse then that, in an age when generalists are needed we become specialized to the point of being unable to communicate.
STEM is an acronym thrown around by policy makers who do not understand the process of becoming a scientist or engineer, nor the difficulty in finding a job once you obtain the degree. It gives them (and opinion piece writers) a talking point for discussions that, in the end, achieve nothing.
The training is difficult, and many students opt out because they decide against putting in the effort. It's not about self-esteem; most of my failing students will harangue me endlessly about how smart they are. Nor is it culture, as much as apologists would like to shift the blame to outside factors.
A career in STEM is like any other avocation; there are even similarities to artists. You need discipline (perseverance) and focus ... and a little luck when it comes down to finding employment.
You can compile statistics all you want, and then try to create a cultural narrative to explain away the statistics, but in the end it comes down to the individual and whether he or she wants to be a scientist or engineer, and whether that desire is stronger than the one to retreat into one's comfort zone when the difficulties arise.
The training is difficult, and many students opt out because they decide against putting in the effort. It's not about self-esteem; most of my failing students will harangue me endlessly about how smart they are. Nor is it culture, as much as apologists would like to shift the blame to outside factors.
A career in STEM is like any other avocation; there are even similarities to artists. You need discipline (perseverance) and focus ... and a little luck when it comes down to finding employment.
You can compile statistics all you want, and then try to create a cultural narrative to explain away the statistics, but in the end it comes down to the individual and whether he or she wants to be a scientist or engineer, and whether that desire is stronger than the one to retreat into one's comfort zone when the difficulties arise.
7
There are a lot more STEM jobs than just those in Silicon Valley. I wonder if the analyses targeting SV hiring is totally valid.
1
Personally, I had a best friend in college whose parents are Nisei (二世, "second generation") on the big island of Hawaii. The father was a hotel maintenance man and his mother a homemaker and maid for the same hotel. My friend enrolled in the Boy Scouts and learned many skills as well as interests from the local Scout leaders. He ended up receiving a scholarship to attend UCSB and major in Marine Biology and then a D.Phil. in Zoology at Oxford.
Also, the story of four undocumented children of migrant workers in Phoenix who designed a cheap robot named "Stinky" who beat MIT students in an underwater competition. The story is fascinating as these high schoolers didn't have any role models or parents who paved the way for their scientific ingenuity. In fact, they fought against the HS backlash against brainy students including cafeteria skirmishes. Rather they seemed to have an inner drive and passion for combining science, technology and ingenuity and creating a robot out of sheer "swag." Now they are the heroes of their school and neighborhood, plus on their way to prosperous careers in science.
I would imagine if kids show the potential early in their school career and are matched with mentors and science/technology camps for low income or financially challenged families, that they may have the academic supports needed to succeed in this highly challenging field. Most successful students in science don't need popular culture media role models, but rather caring adults.
Also, the story of four undocumented children of migrant workers in Phoenix who designed a cheap robot named "Stinky" who beat MIT students in an underwater competition. The story is fascinating as these high schoolers didn't have any role models or parents who paved the way for their scientific ingenuity. In fact, they fought against the HS backlash against brainy students including cafeteria skirmishes. Rather they seemed to have an inner drive and passion for combining science, technology and ingenuity and creating a robot out of sheer "swag." Now they are the heroes of their school and neighborhood, plus on their way to prosperous careers in science.
I would imagine if kids show the potential early in their school career and are matched with mentors and science/technology camps for low income or financially challenged families, that they may have the academic supports needed to succeed in this highly challenging field. Most successful students in science don't need popular culture media role models, but rather caring adults.
2
There is another form of discrimination in education going on: that against the arts and humanities. In the public discourse, this article included but also in venues like Bill Maher's show, STEM is equated to "education" and the arts are deemed useless and self-indulgent.
Nothing could be further from the truth. STEM training can produce excellent technicians, but it does not educate the mind to think. This is especially so in science, which has a rich philosophical component, but which is taught as a series facts to be known rather than a unique process of reasoning to followed.
To learn how to understand and evaluate various viewpoints, to express yourself in writing accurately (a very basic skill, necessary in every career), to assess evidence critically, and to imbue your problem-solving skills with creativity -- these skills are fostered in humanities courses and the arts.
But STEM shows no awareness of any of that. The study of history, philosophy, art, religion, literature, etc are all essential to the educated mind.
Nothing could be further from the truth. STEM training can produce excellent technicians, but it does not educate the mind to think. This is especially so in science, which has a rich philosophical component, but which is taught as a series facts to be known rather than a unique process of reasoning to followed.
To learn how to understand and evaluate various viewpoints, to express yourself in writing accurately (a very basic skill, necessary in every career), to assess evidence critically, and to imbue your problem-solving skills with creativity -- these skills are fostered in humanities courses and the arts.
But STEM shows no awareness of any of that. The study of history, philosophy, art, religion, literature, etc are all essential to the educated mind.
3
We all know you are "not a science guy", Charles. If you were, you would understand why African-Americans and women are not found in plentiful numbers in STEM classes. African Americans are pretty rare in STEM classes because the median IQ of African Americans is 85. The average college graduate over the last 60 years has an average IQ of 115. There just are not enough young black men and women on the far right side of the bell curve. As far as women in STEM, any young women who shows the ability and interest in any scientific or mathematical field will find herself with more offers for enrollment and full-ride scholarships than she can handle.
1
So you're seriously asserting that African-Americans are intellectually inferior to white people? I thought this thread of comments had gone about as low as it could go, but evidently I was wrong. What's next? Lazy? Oh wait, somebody just did that in another post.
Huey Newton graduated from high school in 1959 and couldn't read. That probably doesn't happen all that much any more (but I bet it does sometimes), but there are still lots of schools out there in lower income, middle city areas that are just moving students through to their 'degrees' without really being concerned about how much they have actually learned.
Go take an IQ test in Chinese and let me know how you do. My wife teaches at a local junior college and is astounded at how many students (of all races) can't construct a grammatical sentence or spell. This has nothing to do with race, it has to do with our educational system, especially in regard to the economically disadvantaged.
Huey Newton graduated from high school in 1959 and couldn't read. That probably doesn't happen all that much any more (but I bet it does sometimes), but there are still lots of schools out there in lower income, middle city areas that are just moving students through to their 'degrees' without really being concerned about how much they have actually learned.
Go take an IQ test in Chinese and let me know how you do. My wife teaches at a local junior college and is astounded at how many students (of all races) can't construct a grammatical sentence or spell. This has nothing to do with race, it has to do with our educational system, especially in regard to the economically disadvantaged.
@Mr. Barker: that is an ugly, hateful and utterly baseless comment.
African American children have many barriers, some self-imposed -- but lack of native intelligence is absolutely NOT one of them.
African American children have many barriers, some self-imposed -- but lack of native intelligence is absolutely NOT one of them.
Rich..I'm not racist. I think if we confront the truth everyone will benefit. Read "The Bell Curve" by Herrnstein and Murray for more info.
Let's leave the euphemisms at home. There are lots of minority folk in STEM fields. But they're East or South Asians, don't fit Mr Blow's narrative, and are ignored. STEM jobs pay better because talent is easier to measure: you can either do multivariable calculus/understand the Golgi apparatus/program in C ...or you can't.
President Obama said it very well a few years ago when he pointed out that aspiring to be a basketball player was a pretty poor way of guaranteeing your future.
President Obama said it very well a few years ago when he pointed out that aspiring to be a basketball player was a pretty poor way of guaranteeing your future.
7
The word "segregation" is inappropriate and misleading. No one is doing this to blacks and women -- they are taking themselves out.
Blacks at all education levels have lower scores, proficiency, in all fields. The numbers are there for all to see. They need to work harder, study harder -- and fix their families.
Women choose other fields.
This is not "segregation" -- it is choice.
Blacks at all education levels have lower scores, proficiency, in all fields. The numbers are there for all to see. They need to work harder, study harder -- and fix their families.
Women choose other fields.
This is not "segregation" -- it is choice.
13
There is always one thing that confuses me when reading columns like Charles Blow's this morning. There is nothing new in the notion that the demand for STEM graduates is strong and that jobs in scientific and technological fields carry a significant pay premium. If that is the case, why is it that the market for such workers never seems to clear? It occurs to me that there can be only two possible explanations. Either the economy's failure to produce candidates for STEM jobs represents a serious market failure (which the free market exponents need to explain) or the demand for people in STEM positions (with significant pay differentials) is not all it's cracked up to be.
4
There is demand, but it's not as clear-cut as proponents of STEM claim.
I know scientists, engineers and designers who are OUT OF WORK -- downsized out of their industries OR their jobs were "off-shored" to China or India.
Computer programming is now routinely done in India and Pakistan. Salaries that were growing briskly in the 80s have slowed way down.
It is especially bad for those over 50. These are fields where bright young new graduates are embraced -- hired, while maybe at the same time, the SAME corporation is quietly laying off or eliminating jobs for 50-65 year old employees.
It isn't much of a future if you are hired at 25 and then downsized out at 50 -- long before you can collect Social Security or Medicare.
It is worth keeping in mind that jobs like engineer, designer, computer programmer, scientist -- can all very nicely be done overseas, for way WAY less money than it can be done in the US.
Meanwhile there are jobs that simply cannot be outsourced -- nurse, doctor, lawyer, teacher.
Worth thinking about.
I know scientists, engineers and designers who are OUT OF WORK -- downsized out of their industries OR their jobs were "off-shored" to China or India.
Computer programming is now routinely done in India and Pakistan. Salaries that were growing briskly in the 80s have slowed way down.
It is especially bad for those over 50. These are fields where bright young new graduates are embraced -- hired, while maybe at the same time, the SAME corporation is quietly laying off or eliminating jobs for 50-65 year old employees.
It isn't much of a future if you are hired at 25 and then downsized out at 50 -- long before you can collect Social Security or Medicare.
It is worth keeping in mind that jobs like engineer, designer, computer programmer, scientist -- can all very nicely be done overseas, for way WAY less money than it can be done in the US.
Meanwhile there are jobs that simply cannot be outsourced -- nurse, doctor, lawyer, teacher.
Worth thinking about.
40
Given the quality of STEM education in K-12 ( and possibly beyond), and the working conditions in education today; the burden for fostering an interest in STEM areas will fall on the families and the community. Success in STEM areas is ability driven and depends on skills that must be developed early in life. There is also a mistaken perception that STEM careers are high paid. Most people working in STEM areas could make a great deal more money elsewhere, and very many do migrate to Finance to do so.
7
There are a handful of exceptions, but MOST STEM jobs are moderately good paying middle class jobs -- maybe $60K to $120K (or a bit more in the biggest urban centers).
Only a tiny handful of engineers and programmers work for Google or Apple or Yahoo -- where the big bucks are. Some small engineering firm in Indiana is not going to pay anything like what Apple or Google pay.
There is a range, too. An entry level computer programmer with a BS in Computer Science can start at maybe $35,000 (less, in some places!) -- but a Chemical Engineer might start at $125,000. However, the Chemical Engineer probably has a masters, or PhD, a lot more college debts and the field is much more demanding.
Even so, the highest paid STEM jobs don't even come CLOSE to what a hedge fund manager earns the first year out. The highest paying jobs are in FINANCE -- not STEM.
Only a tiny handful of engineers and programmers work for Google or Apple or Yahoo -- where the big bucks are. Some small engineering firm in Indiana is not going to pay anything like what Apple or Google pay.
There is a range, too. An entry level computer programmer with a BS in Computer Science can start at maybe $35,000 (less, in some places!) -- but a Chemical Engineer might start at $125,000. However, the Chemical Engineer probably has a masters, or PhD, a lot more college debts and the field is much more demanding.
Even so, the highest paid STEM jobs don't even come CLOSE to what a hedge fund manager earns the first year out. The highest paying jobs are in FINANCE -- not STEM.
Science education starts long before kindergarten. Science is about skeptical inquiry. I no longer get invited to judge high school science fairs because I can't stop my tongue from saying this is not science. We live in a society that affirms holding to correct beliefs and good social skills. Science involves checking facts and other subversive activities like questioning everything.When we encourage our children to ask questions and tell them we don't know the answer and proceed assist them in researching and finding the answers we will again lead the world in science. When we take joy in questioning our beliefs and values, when honesty is more important than political correctness, when we make conclusions based on observation we will encourage scientists.
When Americas's greatest writer and humourist Mark Twain had his epiphany in 1899 and realized what he had grown up to believe did not fit his observations of his lifetime he was no longer embraced by society's movers and shakers.
Science's lack of of appreciation is simply part of a society not interested in looking in the mirror.
When Americas's greatest writer and humourist Mark Twain had his epiphany in 1899 and realized what he had grown up to believe did not fit his observations of his lifetime he was no longer embraced by society's movers and shakers.
Science's lack of of appreciation is simply part of a society not interested in looking in the mirror.
7
In a relativistic universe, truth is a reliably predictive hypothesis.
Steve,
That is why science is about scientific theory everything is waiting for the event that disproves everything we have believed before. Science isn't about belief it is about doubt and doubt must reign supreme.
That is why science is about scientific theory everything is waiting for the event that disproves everything we have believed before. Science isn't about belief it is about doubt and doubt must reign supreme.
2
At this point a theory that disproves all of what we already think we know is unlikely. If we seek an explanation for what we think we know, we have to look for a deeper level that accounts for how and why we thought what we used to think.
1
It does not follow from Mr. Blow's column that our efforts to attract students into the STEM area should be made with an eye on race, ethnicity, and sex. If there are promising students of ANY background, they should all be equally encouraged to pursue that promise. But, alas, many people draw the politically correct conclusion that what's needed is some kind of "affirmative action" in the STEM area -- which is unfair to those who aren't preferred, and counterproductive (because of "mismatch") for those who are. More here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/39865/parable-lifeguard
http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/39865/parable-lifeguard
51
How about we just go with paying for an infrastructure program that'd pump up jobs, paying for good schools in every ghetto, and paying a living wage for all, and THEN natter on about morality?
1
Alas, Mr. Clegg, we consistently short change poor populations nationwide. Poor populations of whatever color, need health care, dental care, psychological support and jobs that pay a living wage for their families. People don't arrive and live in some dream of perfection. They come out of a history and live in a community where neither is optimal for producing the best that individual can be.
Besides that, there remains the fact that many of those who teach math and science are incapable of teaching them to others who may not be innately tuned to math and science. I have experienced plenty of those and have had to argue with them in my own children's education. They simply cannot communicate in plain English or through common analogy what is often a concept that is outside of ordinary social interaction or experience. In short, they really cannot "educate." The reverse is also true: some teachers cannot teach social science or English. The difference is that the lived experience of most people is through language -- not so for mathematical or science concepts.
It isn't political correctness that demands more and better teaching and opportunity (your political bias is showing.). It is the real need in our economy that is pushing for such support. I guess that the variety of thought processes that come from ALL of our population and not just from whites, or Asians or upper middle class Americans produces a superior national product. Helping others helps all. No?
Besides that, there remains the fact that many of those who teach math and science are incapable of teaching them to others who may not be innately tuned to math and science. I have experienced plenty of those and have had to argue with them in my own children's education. They simply cannot communicate in plain English or through common analogy what is often a concept that is outside of ordinary social interaction or experience. In short, they really cannot "educate." The reverse is also true: some teachers cannot teach social science or English. The difference is that the lived experience of most people is through language -- not so for mathematical or science concepts.
It isn't political correctness that demands more and better teaching and opportunity (your political bias is showing.). It is the real need in our economy that is pushing for such support. I guess that the variety of thought processes that come from ALL of our population and not just from whites, or Asians or upper middle class Americans produces a superior national product. Helping others helps all. No?
1
Thank you for your response, Mr./Ms. Rothman, and I'm not sure we are disagreeing. I have no objection to giving special help to those who are socially and economically disadvantaged; but I would note again that those individuals come in all colors and both sexes.
1
Charles Blow, perhaps you would have benefitted from STEAM learning (science, technology, engineering, the arts and mathematics). STEAM provides a way for children to incorporate their creative energies and passions into their scientific, technological, engineering and mathematical investigations. You may read one teacher’s story here http://bit.ly/1uQMtYX and read more about the STEM to STEAM movement here http://stemtosteam.org
28
Mr. Rufo, your links should be required reading for all grade and high school teachers. As a long ago engineering major, I have regretted all my life missing out on the liberal arts side of college. Fortunately, I had excellent instruction in English and history in both grammar school and high school, but that really is not enough for a truly well rounded education. So I say, "full STEAM ahead!"
Looking solely at STEM fields is a myopic view of opportunities in science. And citing stats for one AP science course - computer science - when 11 are listed on the College board website can also skew the results. Note that two economics courses, which have a significant math component are listed under social sciences. That would bring the number math/science tests to 13.
When you look at biology and healthcare, women are much more apt to enter - and not in "marketing" or HR. But in teaching/research. More women apply to medical school than men. So I would suggest that at least the gender disparity will be reduced when scanning the sciences more broadly.
I would imagine the black and Hispanic gap would still exist.
When you look at biology and healthcare, women are much more apt to enter - and not in "marketing" or HR. But in teaching/research. More women apply to medical school than men. So I would suggest that at least the gender disparity will be reduced when scanning the sciences more broadly.
I would imagine the black and Hispanic gap would still exist.
3
Charles Blow points to groups under-represented in science education. He does not talk about representation in other education. I suspect the same is true in much the same numbers for all education. It isn't just STEM, it is all of life in which we see this.
Once in a major university, students select their course and grow much the same. If anything, African Americans were over-represented in the computer clubs and activities in which my daughter participated, as more privileged kids slacked off. For two years, the president of her favorite club was a gifted African American kid on whom all relied.
Our kids do better than we did, when they are together.
Once in a major university, students select their course and grow much the same. If anything, African Americans were over-represented in the computer clubs and activities in which my daughter participated, as more privileged kids slacked off. For two years, the president of her favorite club was a gifted African American kid on whom all relied.
Our kids do better than we did, when they are together.
2
America has never respected un whites enough to educate them in science. Science supported "racism" in America. It also supported "sexism", relegating women of any race or ethnicity. The system supported specifically white men.
Science tries to "reason" the issue of racism/sexism, why educate the victims of that ideology?
Science tries to "reason" the issue of racism/sexism, why educate the victims of that ideology?
The wealth of data known as the Racial Gap in IQ has predicted and will continue to predict what the achievement of the White,Asian, Black and non-European Hispanic races will be in higher education and the physical and theoretical sciences.
6
1) getting a degree in a STEM field is HARD! I spent 4 years studying until 1-2am, then up at 8am to skip breakfast and head for my first class.
2) the washout rate is HIGH. Of the 350 first year electrical engineering students in my class, only 46 graduated four years later.
3) you need natural ABILITY. this field requires intelligence, it cannot be taught to someone without. we are not equal.
4) the time between committing and payout is LONG. This is no quick way to financial success, it'll take a decade or so to catch up with your peers that choose a faster path to success.
So, you're looking for STEM candidates who are very hard working, have intense focus on goals, will take risks knowing they may wash out and have the confidence(arrogance) to believe they are more than equal to the challenge. It seems that the stats tell us who that group is. If you want to change the stats, you need to address the fundamentals.
2) the washout rate is HIGH. Of the 350 first year electrical engineering students in my class, only 46 graduated four years later.
3) you need natural ABILITY. this field requires intelligence, it cannot be taught to someone without. we are not equal.
4) the time between committing and payout is LONG. This is no quick way to financial success, it'll take a decade or so to catch up with your peers that choose a faster path to success.
So, you're looking for STEM candidates who are very hard working, have intense focus on goals, will take risks knowing they may wash out and have the confidence(arrogance) to believe they are more than equal to the challenge. It seems that the stats tell us who that group is. If you want to change the stats, you need to address the fundamentals.
8
One comment cites that only time will heals these various wounds—racism, sexism, disparity in income, etc. Time itself, however, may not be an unlimited commodity. Let’s be generous and hypothesize that in four generations skin color and gender no longer represent barriers of any kind. Let’s assume further that time has allowed for progress in the distribution of wealth. And, that perhaps we have made major advances against scourges like cancer and heart disease. That would be a marvelous world to live in, would it not?
In four generations, we arrive (roughly) at the year 2100. If climate change continues unabated along the trajectory of worst-case scenario (the trajectory we are currently on), then all advances in social equality, health and general welfare will be played out under the brutal circumstances of global environmental havoc.
We are living in a crucial moment. Global warming is not an “issue” and that we speak of it as some kind of topical debate is the greatest indicator of how unscientific (and thus undereducated) we really are. Global warming is happening. The barriers to an enlightened response to climate change seem intractable: the dross of religion, and the curse of greed. There may, literally, not be enough time left in the world to overcome them. The future will not be segregated by science; the future will be compromised by our failure to embrace science.
In four generations, we arrive (roughly) at the year 2100. If climate change continues unabated along the trajectory of worst-case scenario (the trajectory we are currently on), then all advances in social equality, health and general welfare will be played out under the brutal circumstances of global environmental havoc.
We are living in a crucial moment. Global warming is not an “issue” and that we speak of it as some kind of topical debate is the greatest indicator of how unscientific (and thus undereducated) we really are. Global warming is happening. The barriers to an enlightened response to climate change seem intractable: the dross of religion, and the curse of greed. There may, literally, not be enough time left in the world to overcome them. The future will not be segregated by science; the future will be compromised by our failure to embrace science.
1
Accepting your scenario for the sake of argument, it would appear that you are the one who fails to "embrace science." I have lived long enough to recognize moralistic posing when I read it. If the great threat is man-made climate change, there is every reason to believe that a technical solution can and will be found--and found without consigning us all back to a 19th Century standard of living.
Have a little faith. Malthus was wrong and we will figure this out. I applaud those incredibly hard-working young people, of every race and sex, who are currently in school and look forward to their creative solutions to the problems of the moment.
Have a little faith. Malthus was wrong and we will figure this out. I applaud those incredibly hard-working young people, of every race and sex, who are currently in school and look forward to their creative solutions to the problems of the moment.
3
Thanks for your reply. It confirms how pervasive the notion is that faith is part of the answer.
1
One aspect that is always glossed over by those not familiar with the pathway to a PhD in STEM is the lack of understanding of what it takes to get there. A PhD is not like a MD or DDS, where you have a set program, you take the courses, do rotations, and take a board exam at the end of it all and are officially called a "Doctor". The running joke among graduate students working on their PhD are that they are slaves - working 60-80 hours a week, getting paid "part-time" for what the university will write down as only 20 hours a week, resulting in salaries between $22k to $28k depending on the area and how expensive it is to live there. After you finish anywhere from 4 years (if lucky) to up to 7 years on your PhD, many then have to move onto a Postdoctoral fellowship, which can last anywhere from 2-6 years, depending on your career goal (academia, industry, or teaching), and again you are working 60-80 hours a week a a low pay ($40k-$55k). If going into academia, you darn well hope to get tenure (which comes up around 6-10 years after starting), and you work again around 60-80 hours a week setting up your lab, moderating your undergraduate students, graduate students and/or postdoctoral fellows, writing grants, hoping you get good data to publish papers, etc.
Unfortunately, when you look at such a hectic work heavy life, woman opt to avoid in favor of a family, which as I am sure many of you don't decide to have kids when getting paid little and working 60+ hours a week.
Unfortunately, when you look at such a hectic work heavy life, woman opt to avoid in favor of a family, which as I am sure many of you don't decide to have kids when getting paid little and working 60+ hours a week.
4
This is an excellent (and rarely mentioned) point!
Another thing to keep in mind is attrition rates at elite PhD programs compared to professional schools. PhD programs in the sciences have attrition rates as high as 50%. Engineering is slightly better, at around 35%. By contrast, elite law and medical schools generally have attrition rates of below one half of one percent.
Another thing to keep in mind is attrition rates at elite PhD programs compared to professional schools. PhD programs in the sciences have attrition rates as high as 50%. Engineering is slightly better, at around 35%. By contrast, elite law and medical schools generally have attrition rates of below one half of one percent.
1
All of this must make ask, isn't it time to refocus H-1B visas to the truly talented, and not just those people willing to work for less money for Indian outsourcing companies (the largest employers of H-1Bs)?
1
This is a big subject. We are surrounded by technology and face huge environmental issues in an era where science is under attack and science education seems only for the those with strong aptitudes and interests. If we are to make good decisions about how to deal with climate change, global food supply, and sustainable living, people need STEM training. Arts, history, culture, are essential, too. The best engineers I know are strong in both. For diversity to improve, I think the broader value of STEM needs to be appreciated way beyond getting a job.
I'm an electrical engineer nearing retirement. Most my colleagues were math science focused from an early age. When I attended an engineering university, early 70's, there were ~4500 males and ~150 females. The ratio is much better now, but the cultural biases against STEM are still prevalent.
Note that even in technology, many jobs are now offshore and more are going that way. Entry level positions are disappearing making it difficult to build expertise, which will lead to less innovation.
I'm an electrical engineer nearing retirement. Most my colleagues were math science focused from an early age. When I attended an engineering university, early 70's, there were ~4500 males and ~150 females. The ratio is much better now, but the cultural biases against STEM are still prevalent.
Note that even in technology, many jobs are now offshore and more are going that way. Entry level positions are disappearing making it difficult to build expertise, which will lead to less innovation.
What is Mr. Blow's point? That there is some kind of insidious discrimination problem? Extending the same logic based on statistics that do not delve deep, one can then make similar conclusions about all Americans in the wider context of the rest of the world. Instead of making a reliable case for more STEM based education, to somehow cloak this into a race and gender issue is weird.
4
Is the issue one of educational disadvantage, environmental and cultural mores, peer pressure within the school climate, lack of opportunity after graduation due to social status or pure and outright discrimination against a particular ethnic group and gender? This would be difficult to tease out although if one is a member of a particular underrepresented group and has successful and highly prosperous parents who can ensure quality of education at the highest levels combined with social and business connections, then the issue may lie simply with the child's lack of interest in this particular field of study. Then he/she may be better served in following his/her dreams and career which provides the most self satisfaction. The issue of quality education, especially in science and math, is a concern for all of society if we hope to provide a ladder to economic mobility for the underprivileged among us.
1
So, which is the chicken and which is the egg? If minority and female college graduates with STEM degrees are not finding jobs, that might explain why more of minority and female high school students are not seeking STEM degrees.
1
The decreasing number of black scientists and engineers can be directly related to the lack of support for black colleges and universities, a condition created by misguided civil rights laws that threw out the baby of black institutions of higher learning with the bath water of invidious white racist institutions that discriminated against black applicants. The 1960s black middle class elites,like black student athlethes, were so eager to take advantage of opportunities and enticements to integrate white institutions, that they abandoned almost en mass the black communities and organizations that generated the black middle class elites. Integrationists ought to have excepted the racial exclusionary policies of black colleges for a period of time to let them provide black role models in science and other professions for aspiring STEM students. Membership however in the National Society of Black Engineers (www.nsbe.org) founded at Purdue University in 1975, contradicts your numbers with respect to applied scientists; the NSB has had explosive growth, drawing membership and creating chapters abroad,such as in Toronto, Canada, the Caribbean and Africa. Check out their glossy magazine, its impressive list of hi-tech corporate ads, foundations, and goverment supporters, and its website. They also give a heckuva annual meeting! Still a young organization, but it is growing rapidly in membership from not only historic black colleges and universities, but from other schools.
Here's to the schools of Mississippi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7fgB0m_y2I
The lack of young STEM candidates concerns all of us: the future is moving quickly away from what we used to refer to as Blue Collar jobs to scientific and design professions. Those jobs that used to be filled by the less-educated, such as assembling things in manufacturing jobs and other repetitive labor have been steadily replaced by robots or overseas workers.
All of our children need very strong math and science education from the start to be able to have jobs by the time they graduate. The world is changing. Parents pushing/helping their kids with those disciplines is critical.
All of our children need very strong math and science education from the start to be able to have jobs by the time they graduate. The world is changing. Parents pushing/helping their kids with those disciplines is critical.
My sister-in-law was a physics major and works in a STEM field, and she is a working mother. She also went to a state university and worked to support herself the entire time, so when I ask her about the challenges of women in STEM, she has a lot of valuable insight.
She completely dismisses the idea that "stereotypes, discouragement and economics" are to blame, because she overcame all of those. She says that it is simple- people don't want to put in the work. The resources are there for anyone to succeed, but it is a lot harder to learn a universal truth than it is to skate by writing fluffy opinion pieces like the humanities majors do.
You want to know why the percentage of black college students are majoring in STEM is decreasing? It is because more of the black students going to college have been selected by affirmative action. They are less qualified than their peers (especially the Asian students), and you cannot hide lack of knowledge or intelligence when it comes to cold, hard numbers and facts.
Once again, Charles Blow plays the "victim" card when the truth is that individuals don't step up and do the work!
She completely dismisses the idea that "stereotypes, discouragement and economics" are to blame, because she overcame all of those. She says that it is simple- people don't want to put in the work. The resources are there for anyone to succeed, but it is a lot harder to learn a universal truth than it is to skate by writing fluffy opinion pieces like the humanities majors do.
You want to know why the percentage of black college students are majoring in STEM is decreasing? It is because more of the black students going to college have been selected by affirmative action. They are less qualified than their peers (especially the Asian students), and you cannot hide lack of knowledge or intelligence when it comes to cold, hard numbers and facts.
Once again, Charles Blow plays the "victim" card when the truth is that individuals don't step up and do the work!
15
Is there anything that Charles Blow see's that isn't some kind of disparity. Is it possible that the students he mentions are not interested in STEM? Stop looking for the boogey man in everything.Mr Blow, accprding to a professior at Stanford university in Ca, more whit people were taken as slaves from southern than blacks people taken as slaves to America. We'll never get pass this, what I call bogus, conversation about disparity if all we ever look at or analyze is disparity. If we were a racist nation that was settled on keeping blacks down then then I can guarantee you Obama would not be president. Let's look at some success in overcoming the so called disparity. I was poor as a young husband and father so don't give that I don't understand business.
4
I'm 52, white, male, engineer with a BS in physics originally from NY. In 1992, I began working at a federally funded research and development think tank in California. I ate lunch with 4 friends: a Jew, a Japanese-descended American from Hawai'i, and 2 black gentlemen, both math or science majors. As I sat with them, I silently thought "This is America at it's best. The fact that I can do this is amazing." However, what was sad is that I came to realize almost all of the blacks who worked there were janitorial staff and that my two black friends were a real rarity. It was then that I realized affirmative action is necessary and we really have to do what we can to help promote STEM for minorities.
4
Why should anyone take STEM courses? The glamour careers are show business and professional sports? And a STEM curriculum is tough. When I was a student, 50 years ago (ouch!) engineering was called " pre- business" because so few stayed in engineering. I was the only engineer in my fraternity of 100.
Things have only gotten worse.
I cringe when I read articles by the media and comments from readers at the appalling ignorance of science in this country.
Things have only gotten worse.
I cringe when I read articles by the media and comments from readers at the appalling ignorance of science in this country.
10
It seems that, in some nefarious circles, like Russia, that computer hacking would be a sexy and glamorous career similar to hip-hop artist or metal band front man. Maybe there could be an exploratory committee set-up modeled after the ISIS campaign recruiters showing how dangerous and exciting the field of STEM is. This would include introducing video gaming classes at the middle school level and computer gambling software in which each participant could earn imaginary Wall St. chips in lieu of grades or good citizenship awards. Just a thought anyhow.
I did have the good fortunate of recently sitting next, on an airline flight, to a female engineer with a large corporation who told me that she volunteers during the summer on a program that targets high school Hispanic girls to introduce them to the possibility of their becoming engineers. She pointed out to me that they are likely candidates since most of them have dads who are responsible for fixing anything that goes wrong with the car or house. She pointed out that if the fathers had been born under other circumstances, their conceptual understanding would have made them excellent candidates for a degreed engineering program. So, she targets their daughters to determine if this conceptual understanding has been emulated or passed down via genes (nurture or nature) to determine whether they could be the ones who are the engineers with credentials! I did like hearing about her involvement in this worthy program! Definitely sounds as if we need more of the same all over the country for more of our American Girls!
4
Perhaps there is a racial and gender component to it. Why did my little boy play with cars and my little girl play with dolls? And when slightly older he work on bicycles and she play with a stove and a tea set? Then he play soldier and she play nurse? My Asian friend's kids had different experiences growing up. Why do some animals teach their offspring's to hunt other animals and some teach foraging?
Now look at racial proclivities. Some hunted their food and were warring, others farmed. Perhaps it's time science, of all races and genders, look at the possibility of racial and gender differences other than just looks.
Now look at racial proclivities. Some hunted their food and were warring, others farmed. Perhaps it's time science, of all races and genders, look at the possibility of racial and gender differences other than just looks.
4
No doubt that we need more STEM eduction and more women and minorities in the fields. But don't forget we also need the machinist and pipefitter to make and assemble the new technologies and an electrician to energize the equipment. These are jobs that the young men and women that don't care to go to college can be trained for through union apprenticeships or technical schools after high school. Like free community college.
1
Agree 100%
Perhaps though to engage these kids, we need to house them and allow 'frat-like parties' to emulate the college experience we all pay so much for?
For so many it seems college is nothing but an expensive 4 years away and an introduction to sex, drugs, alcohol and sleeping in.
Perhaps though to engage these kids, we need to house them and allow 'frat-like parties' to emulate the college experience we all pay so much for?
For so many it seems college is nothing but an expensive 4 years away and an introduction to sex, drugs, alcohol and sleeping in.
1
If women less likely to be interested in STEM, then fewer women will be in STEM. The same can be said about minorities. Let the best people succeed, and don't try to discriminate based on sex or race.
There's nothing wrong with STEM.
There's nothing wrong with STEM.
43
Let's see. I had the best Math SAT in my class of 1,000 students. I got into MIT. My teachers all told me that I was stupid to go to an engineering school when I wanted to be a scientist. My father said that he didn't want to pay for a girl to go to an expensive college and I should just go to Penn State. I paid my way through MIT by working in the dining hall. Do you get it now?
1
It is why they are less interested that is the question here. If you say that STEM is now a pure meritocracy and only the best are in it, even though there is a strong imbalance of gender and racial make-up, then you are saying that one gender and race is significantly superior at STEM work.
But how can you explain that without discriminating against race and sex?
But how can you explain that without discriminating against race and sex?
Bravo! My sister-in-law teaches Mathematics and my niece aced Math as a 10th grader. Its disheartening to not find family support.
But to have made strides even in absence of family support is encouraging. Enlightening!
But to have made strides even in absence of family support is encouraging. Enlightening!
A big problem is the teachers at the elementary school level. Many are math and science phobic and have been since they were young. With teacher education schools getting the bottom quarter of college graduates and most if not all are humanities majors, it is easy to see how this phobia might be passed on to young children - especially girls. When a teacher prefaces a lesson by "I know this is hard.", the teacher has already lost some kids.
6
The irony is that any talented woman, black, or Hispanic who does enter a STEM field in industry will skyrocket toward the corporate stratosphere. Corporations are eager to promote women and minorities quickly to demonstrate their commitment to diversity - and what better way to underscore the point than by promoting these groups within STEM fields in which they are even more underrepresented than elsewhere?
So from a purely selfish perspective, women, blacks and Hispanics with solid STEM credentials can achieve success much more quickly than your typical white-guy STEM professional, at least in corporations.
So from a purely selfish perspective, women, blacks and Hispanics with solid STEM credentials can achieve success much more quickly than your typical white-guy STEM professional, at least in corporations.
25
That is not as true as you might think. AA candidates typically do very well in HR, media relations, and areas like that. But most departments are still jungles where the toughest guy is king.
I know corporate IT pretty well, and that sort of thing doesn't happen there. There is just too much competition from guys who are willing to work 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, and who are very, very smart.
I know corporate IT pretty well, and that sort of thing doesn't happen there. There is just too much competition from guys who are willing to work 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, and who are very, very smart.
4
Jonathan, I'm not suggesting someone walks in drunk sleeps at his/her desk and goes home early on Fridays will succeed in STEM just because of gender or race. I've worked in STEM dominated industries for decades and have seen ambitious women, Hispanics and blacks promoted more quickly than equally skilled white guys.
That your first reaction to my post is that women, blacks and Hispanics won't work as hard is pretty illuminating.
That your first reaction to my post is that women, blacks and Hispanics won't work as hard is pretty illuminating.
2
Jonathan -- My sister has gone far in corporate hard science. She also has two kids. She does not work 10 hour days 7 days a week. She is just so talented that they value her and the work she does.
My own experience in a profession selling billable hours is that hours do not reflect quality. The best work happens in only a few of those long hours, and the rest is filler. The best lawyers were able to sell their good hours at a premium, and go home for the rest.
Reality does intrude in the workplace. It isn't all about appearance. The work does need to get done, and done well, and those who are successful know where it comes from and promotes those who do it, not those who just kiss up and look like they live there.
My own experience in a profession selling billable hours is that hours do not reflect quality. The best work happens in only a few of those long hours, and the rest is filler. The best lawyers were able to sell their good hours at a premium, and go home for the rest.
Reality does intrude in the workplace. It isn't all about appearance. The work does need to get done, and done well, and those who are successful know where it comes from and promotes those who do it, not those who just kiss up and look like they live there.
2
There are a lot of factors here. In regard to African-Americans I'd like to see the same statistics for college graduation rates in general. Are they that much different than for STEM particularly? And I'd like to see those statistics by family income level, regardless of race. The latter, I think, remains the biggest issue. The historical economic disadvantage which was once firmly imposed on African-Americans didn't disappear with the Civil Rights movement. It's a cycle that continues and it will still take generations for its effects to disappear. The de-facto segregation which persists also means that large numbers of black people get their k-12 education in schools in lower income neighborhoods, which are almost invariably sub-par.
And lastly I'd like to see the statistics based on whether one's parents graduated from college. Again, if there is no family history of higher education, I suspect one is much less likely to pursue it. There are always exceptional students and highly motivated people who will escape that, but it is the more average students who make up the bulk of those statistics.
I was a very good math student, but not a very motivated person. With a couple of stumbles I ended up with a college degree - mostly because that's what people in my family did. If your parents didn't attend college and most of your friends are not going to either, I would suggest that you are much more unlikely to do so yourself, regardless of your talents.
So many factors.
And lastly I'd like to see the statistics based on whether one's parents graduated from college. Again, if there is no family history of higher education, I suspect one is much less likely to pursue it. There are always exceptional students and highly motivated people who will escape that, but it is the more average students who make up the bulk of those statistics.
I was a very good math student, but not a very motivated person. With a couple of stumbles I ended up with a college degree - mostly because that's what people in my family did. If your parents didn't attend college and most of your friends are not going to either, I would suggest that you are much more unlikely to do so yourself, regardless of your talents.
So many factors.
14
An addendum to the above. My mother had a masters in math and was a high school math teacher for many years. She was always the only woman in the department. She could teach math to anybody (though she could hardly explain how to play something as simple as checkers).
My very motivated brother ended up with an MBA. My sister also got her B.A., though like me she had stumbles along the way and was not quite as good a student in H.S. as either my brother or I. My sister recently told me that when she first went off to college my mother told her that one of the primary reasons they (my parents) wanted her to go to college was that it would be a good place for her to find a husband.
My wife's parents spent a lot of money on tutors for their two boys and sent one of them off to a private school in an effort to ensure that they got a college education. The 3 girls were never encouraged to think about college and were told that their primary goal was to find a husband. My wife got her B.A. and M.D. while we were raising 4 children. Neither of her brothers ever did anything specifically related to their education.
It takes an unusually motivated and strong-willed person to escape that kind of indoctrination. Of course it's not as bad now as it once was, but if you think that type of thinking has completely disappeared, I would suggest that's wishful thinking. It may not be as explicitly passed along as it once was, but the hints and general attitudes are still there.
My very motivated brother ended up with an MBA. My sister also got her B.A., though like me she had stumbles along the way and was not quite as good a student in H.S. as either my brother or I. My sister recently told me that when she first went off to college my mother told her that one of the primary reasons they (my parents) wanted her to go to college was that it would be a good place for her to find a husband.
My wife's parents spent a lot of money on tutors for their two boys and sent one of them off to a private school in an effort to ensure that they got a college education. The 3 girls were never encouraged to think about college and were told that their primary goal was to find a husband. My wife got her B.A. and M.D. while we were raising 4 children. Neither of her brothers ever did anything specifically related to their education.
It takes an unusually motivated and strong-willed person to escape that kind of indoctrination. Of course it's not as bad now as it once was, but if you think that type of thinking has completely disappeared, I would suggest that's wishful thinking. It may not be as explicitly passed along as it once was, but the hints and general attitudes are still there.
8
Please write about why minorities choose basketball and football over STEM, please.
28
Really?
I cannot believe your post.
I cannot believe your post.
8
So instead of being sarcastic, how might you answer this question that Blow has raised?
6
That is what they see, that is what they know. Black teenagers follow football teams and basketball teams, and identify with the players.
None of them would know who Larry Ellison, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, or Mark Zuckerberg are. They don't have any idea where the real money is.
None of them would know who Larry Ellison, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, or Mark Zuckerberg are. They don't have any idea where the real money is.
3
Dear Mr. Blow:
Yes, there is clearly a segregation developing between the "technical" and "non-technical" worlds. It's is being driven by the rapid advance in almost all forms of human endeavor - just look what's happened to your own newspaper industry over the last twenty years. The point being that because these advances better the whole of society, they will not be reversed. We need to think about how to get more blacks, hispanics, women, everybody (even white males) into these fields.
As a technology business owner I have personally recruited and hired many young STEM grads, including representatives from all of the groups you mentioned in your article. I haven't hired any MFA degrees. I don't need them. Although I do look for STEM people that have excellent communication & relationship skills - not always easy to find.
Harry
Yes, there is clearly a segregation developing between the "technical" and "non-technical" worlds. It's is being driven by the rapid advance in almost all forms of human endeavor - just look what's happened to your own newspaper industry over the last twenty years. The point being that because these advances better the whole of society, they will not be reversed. We need to think about how to get more blacks, hispanics, women, everybody (even white males) into these fields.
As a technology business owner I have personally recruited and hired many young STEM grads, including representatives from all of the groups you mentioned in your article. I haven't hired any MFA degrees. I don't need them. Although I do look for STEM people that have excellent communication & relationship skills - not always easy to find.
Harry
67
Yes, and you are making exactly the mistake so many make. Refusing to understand that the liberal arts teach specific skills that can not be replicated elsewhere. These are not skills just anybody can pick up without training.
If you want people who know how to write hire English, history and like majors. And if you want people with relationship skills, hire anywhere but STEM sciences. The people who will be good with other people will not have chosen to go into a field which requires them to sit down at a computer all day with limited interaction with others as they solve intellectual puzzles. People who are good with relationships and other people are those who prefer to be with people and interact with them.
Indeed, many of those who thrive in the STEM fields, particularly engineers just don't get it in terms of communication and relationships. So if you hire only in this group, you are harming yourself. Somebody has got to explain them to the world, and most likely they will have a non-STEM degree. (In the case of my husband whose career is explaining the engineers to the world, political science).
(FYI MFA graduate is not looking for a job in the tech field one way or another so it means nothing that you have not hired someone with this degree. It's like a publishing house saying they've never hired an editorial asssitant who was a computer programmer.)
If you want people who know how to write hire English, history and like majors. And if you want people with relationship skills, hire anywhere but STEM sciences. The people who will be good with other people will not have chosen to go into a field which requires them to sit down at a computer all day with limited interaction with others as they solve intellectual puzzles. People who are good with relationships and other people are those who prefer to be with people and interact with them.
Indeed, many of those who thrive in the STEM fields, particularly engineers just don't get it in terms of communication and relationships. So if you hire only in this group, you are harming yourself. Somebody has got to explain them to the world, and most likely they will have a non-STEM degree. (In the case of my husband whose career is explaining the engineers to the world, political science).
(FYI MFA graduate is not looking for a job in the tech field one way or another so it means nothing that you have not hired someone with this degree. It's like a publishing house saying they've never hired an editorial asssitant who was a computer programmer.)
Who do you think teaches "communication & relationship skills?" People with MFA degrees?
Harry,
You're "mansplaining" the situation by changing the topic. The point Mr. Blow made was that even in a supposed seller's market for talent, the black and hispanic graduates of top technology programs are finding it harder than their white peers to find work, particularly at cutting-edge companies. This isn't about technology as a whole, and it isn't about your petty grudge against people with MFA degrees, who are not asking you for work, in any case.
You're "mansplaining" the situation by changing the topic. The point Mr. Blow made was that even in a supposed seller's market for talent, the black and hispanic graduates of top technology programs are finding it harder than their white peers to find work, particularly at cutting-edge companies. This isn't about technology as a whole, and it isn't about your petty grudge against people with MFA degrees, who are not asking you for work, in any case.
My own personal feelings, based on my own experience ---- it takes a teacher, and only one to instill a love or a yearning for the sciences. I don't know where you will find them, but that is what you need.
Mine was a fifth grade science teacher from Louisiana who instilled a love of earth science, especially rocks, agates to be specific, and I was off! And, I will hold science dear to my heart until the day I die.
However, I'm not sure the children of today are nearly as curious or as full of questions, as I was ---- I drove my mom nuts with, "why?" My grandchildren never ask, "why?" I find this odd. They never question. But, so much has been learned, maybe they feel as if the questions have all been answered? Maybe we should put some questions out there?
Mine was a fifth grade science teacher from Louisiana who instilled a love of earth science, especially rocks, agates to be specific, and I was off! And, I will hold science dear to my heart until the day I die.
However, I'm not sure the children of today are nearly as curious or as full of questions, as I was ---- I drove my mom nuts with, "why?" My grandchildren never ask, "why?" I find this odd. They never question. But, so much has been learned, maybe they feel as if the questions have all been answered? Maybe we should put some questions out there?
7
Good fourth, fifth and sixth grade science teachers (Mrs. Wilma Davis [her choice of title, it was the first half of the 1960's] was mine, up in Iowa, all three years) can have a profound influence on all your later thinking. She was, I believe, a lifelong member of a Sunday-go-to-meeting house of one denomination or another; but she never stood for any busybodies coming into her science classroom telling her what she could and could not teach. I remember witnessing some epic confrontations, too.
Charles points to the proportional disparity between whites and blacks (and, tangentially, women and Hispanics) in their representation among science-intense occupations. I'd suggest that if we eliminate the consideration of race and ethnicity, what we find is a disparity between the poor and not-poor in such occupations.
That concerns me, because while we obviously still have problems in America with race and ethnicity, and to some extent gender, seeking to make these disparities all about race, ethnicity and gender buries the lead and not-so-subtly argues for programs that favor some of our poor over others.
The lead that's getting buried here is that our poor, largely through lack of investment when young, are not prepared to focus lives on careers that require extensive continuing education. As it turns out, our black and Hispanic populations represent a disproportionate percentage of our poor; but taken together they're roughly equal in actual number to our white and "other" poor. Women follow the racial and ethnic divides, and also suffer from the historical emphasis on less career-oriented occupations due to their child-bearing and -rearing roles, which is notably concentrated among the poor.
The solution isn't racial, ethnic or gender carve-outs, it's properly a focus on equalizing the quality of primary and secondary education across ALL economic classes. If we do that, blacks, Hispanics and women will see science boats rising along with those of ALL our poor.
That concerns me, because while we obviously still have problems in America with race and ethnicity, and to some extent gender, seeking to make these disparities all about race, ethnicity and gender buries the lead and not-so-subtly argues for programs that favor some of our poor over others.
The lead that's getting buried here is that our poor, largely through lack of investment when young, are not prepared to focus lives on careers that require extensive continuing education. As it turns out, our black and Hispanic populations represent a disproportionate percentage of our poor; but taken together they're roughly equal in actual number to our white and "other" poor. Women follow the racial and ethnic divides, and also suffer from the historical emphasis on less career-oriented occupations due to their child-bearing and -rearing roles, which is notably concentrated among the poor.
The solution isn't racial, ethnic or gender carve-outs, it's properly a focus on equalizing the quality of primary and secondary education across ALL economic classes. If we do that, blacks, Hispanics and women will see science boats rising along with those of ALL our poor.
13
the school doors are open, parents have to make sure that their kids GO
kids have to want to be educated, not on welfare
kids have to want to be educated, not on welfare
1
Good point. You don't get any more STEM students in (say) Appalachia than you do in downtown Detroit, Newark, Camden, East LA, etc.
But we don't like talking about white rural poverty. It does not fit the lefty liberal meme of "poverty is racism".
That being said, a very interesting film (and movie) is "October Sky" (the book I think is called "Rocket Boys"), about Homer Hickam -- the son of a coal miner who grew up to become a NASA engineer. It was quite a struggle for him against the paradigm of his time and culture that pushed young men to go into the coal mines, but he succeeded anyways.
Where are the black Homer Hickams? Where are their books?
But we don't like talking about white rural poverty. It does not fit the lefty liberal meme of "poverty is racism".
That being said, a very interesting film (and movie) is "October Sky" (the book I think is called "Rocket Boys"), about Homer Hickam -- the son of a coal miner who grew up to become a NASA engineer. It was quite a struggle for him against the paradigm of his time and culture that pushed young men to go into the coal mines, but he succeeded anyways.
Where are the black Homer Hickams? Where are their books?
3
I would challenge Mr. Blow to explain how other minorities: Asian and Indian punch so high above their weight.
Funny how a person of color has come to mean Black or occasionally Hispanic.
It would be instructive to assess the number of poor single-parent households in those two demos vs. - say - Asians: it starts with culture.
Finally talented folks of color must stop self-segregating at second tier colleges including the cast majority of HBCUs.
Funny how a person of color has come to mean Black or occasionally Hispanic.
It would be instructive to assess the number of poor single-parent households in those two demos vs. - say - Asians: it starts with culture.
Finally talented folks of color must stop self-segregating at second tier colleges including the cast majority of HBCUs.
11
I agree. But how do we fix this culture problem?
Saying "physician heal thyself" may make people feel good but won't fix the problem.
In the meantime, we continue to pay $30,000 plus per person per year that we incarcerate.
Wouldn't you rather pay to fix poverty, get them educated, working and paying taxes?
Liberals haven't fixed this problem since Johnson started the war on poverty 50 years ago.
But conservatives have had the same 50 years. They gave us tax cuts for the rich and trickle down economics.
In the meantime, our taxes are paying for prisons instead of education.
Saying "physician heal thyself" may make people feel good but won't fix the problem.
In the meantime, we continue to pay $30,000 plus per person per year that we incarcerate.
Wouldn't you rather pay to fix poverty, get them educated, working and paying taxes?
Liberals haven't fixed this problem since Johnson started the war on poverty 50 years ago.
But conservatives have had the same 50 years. They gave us tax cuts for the rich and trickle down economics.
In the meantime, our taxes are paying for prisons instead of education.
"it starts with culture." ... and with society. I'm Indian. Asians and Indians (who are also Asian btw) do not have to deal with all of the societal and cultural issues that exist in the US that African-Americans do. We "punch above our weight" because we are free of some (but not all) of the racial constraints that have evolved in the US and that hold the African-American community back.
1
I retired as a professor in the electrical engineering department at the University of South Carolina. I was the only "white" born-in-America person in the department. All of my colleagues and all of the students were either Chinese or Indian. Apparently, Asians enjoy science and engineering. But obviously, Asians don't count in the statistics.
3
Thank you Mr. Blow for bringing up this important point. I have two points to make.
First, thus far we are fortunate to be able to attract international students into our STEM fields. They are well prepared, certainly better than most American high school students, and a good number of them stay back. But with a global economy taking hold, STEM graduates have many more options to work. The advantage we had is eroding.
Second, our national culture does not support students who study and work hard. They are caricatured as nerds. In the popular culture nerds always lose the girl to football jocks. One may say that that is only a caricature, but it reflects some of our cultural values. In France, Turkey, China, India, Korea and a host of other countries nerds are not denigrated as much as in our culture.
Bottom line - we need to change our cultural norms in this regard because it is the right thing to do and also because our pipeline of international students will dwindle in the coming two decades or so.
First, thus far we are fortunate to be able to attract international students into our STEM fields. They are well prepared, certainly better than most American high school students, and a good number of them stay back. But with a global economy taking hold, STEM graduates have many more options to work. The advantage we had is eroding.
Second, our national culture does not support students who study and work hard. They are caricatured as nerds. In the popular culture nerds always lose the girl to football jocks. One may say that that is only a caricature, but it reflects some of our cultural values. In France, Turkey, China, India, Korea and a host of other countries nerds are not denigrated as much as in our culture.
Bottom line - we need to change our cultural norms in this regard because it is the right thing to do and also because our pipeline of international students will dwindle in the coming two decades or so.
15
At least physics conjures conjures images of "The Big Bang Theory" now. It used to be a class of drugs for the stomach.
I graduated from Cooper Union with a degree in CE in 1964. In the middle and late 60s I served in the Peace Corps in Ecuador and then Malaysia. In Malaysia I taught science - biology, chemistry, and physics - and math - algebra, trig and calculus - at both the middle and high school levels. EVERY STUDENT took all the math and science courses, and at least half of my students were girls. No one said that the courses were too difficult, or were not appropriate, for girls (or for any ethnic group, for that matter). We don't do that in this country. Maybe we should. Yah think?
19
We need to keep competent teachers in the US then. I graduated high school in 2003, and I feel like high school itself ruined every possibility for me to enjoy anything having to do with STEM because the teachers were so bad that they couldn't communicate the material. My single year with Algebra II went through no less than 3 teachers, none of whom were educated in teaching, and the last of which left me only with the analogy that fish like to have sex. To this day, I still don't know what kind of analogy he was trying to make. He was a trained accountant. Chemistry was no easier. No teachers were able to help me wrap my brain around how chemicals have their unique properties, textures, reaction potentials, or even the color they were, when they're all made up of the same base components. Without that understanding, I couldn't figure out the rest of it. Planet science was taught by the gym teacher. English was filled with students who couldn't even read out loud at a conversational pace and it just ruined the entire experience. This was all at a school that supposedly ran a distinguished achievement program! My parents still wonder why I stopped caring about education! I'd say that my learning stopped when we moved to the US from Canada. This country is such a giant bucket of failure, it's not even funny.
2
You don't want to make something look too easy if it is the basis of a mysterious high priesthood.
2
One of the big problems is that tech companies do not recruit at colleges with heavy minority enrollment. There is a lot of elitism at tech companies
10
"There is a lot of elitism at tech companies." Tech companies are more interested in smarts than skin color, thank goodness.
Both my children, one son and one daughter are extremely good in science and math but they have no desire to go into fields using those skills. I think there is a huge disconnect between what you learn in school and how that is actually applied out in the work force.
It would be great if schools could have courses in "if you get a degree in this, this is what you could do with it..." It seems to happen in business a lot but not so much for the other fields.
It would be great if schools could have courses in "if you get a degree in this, this is what you could do with it..." It seems to happen in business a lot but not so much for the other fields.
8
Your kids might understand that STEM fields are all-consuming careers that tend to dominate every aspect of the person's life, and may have aspirations to have something called 'free time.'
I work in medical and I have absolutely no desire to go further than I already have. The sheer amount of time the doctors have to devote to hospital call and going to dialysis units, among other things, makes me entirely unenvious of their positions. What does it matter if they make a boatload of money if they're always at work and can't enjoy it?
Some folks just want a job, not a lifestyle.
I work in medical and I have absolutely no desire to go further than I already have. The sheer amount of time the doctors have to devote to hospital call and going to dialysis units, among other things, makes me entirely unenvious of their positions. What does it matter if they make a boatload of money if they're always at work and can't enjoy it?
Some folks just want a job, not a lifestyle.
Not a word about how, overall, 60% of college graduates are women.
Instead, it's all about tearing down the minority of boys who manage to succeed in spite of the odds against them.
Instead, it's all about tearing down the minority of boys who manage to succeed in spite of the odds against them.
11
I don't think it's about tearing people down. I am one of those in high tech and I didn't take the column this way.
Rather, the company I work for is hiring 30 H-1B visa people from China and India at the same time we have poor urban blacks and rural whites who don't finish high school, drugs, unwanted pregnancies, etc.
And I will pay taxes to keep them incarcerated, at least $30,000 per person per year. I would rather spend that money to fix poverty, get people educated, working and paying taxes.
Rather, the company I work for is hiring 30 H-1B visa people from China and India at the same time we have poor urban blacks and rural whites who don't finish high school, drugs, unwanted pregnancies, etc.
And I will pay taxes to keep them incarcerated, at least $30,000 per person per year. I would rather spend that money to fix poverty, get people educated, working and paying taxes.
What good is a college degree if you can't get a job afterwards? The gender disparity in college graduation is meaningless without a positive future outcome, and the outcomes are clearly still skewed towards certain types of men. If you choose to see life as a zero-sum game, then your opinion might seem justified, but assuming that career opportunities in STEM are expanding instead of staying stagnant, there will be room for more people. I also find your statement "the minority of boys who manage to succeed in spite of the odds against them" completely misleading, given the overwhelming evidence that STEM fields are dominated by Caucasian and Asian men. What odds are these? You've borrowed the "odds" stacked against minority men, who truly fare the most poorly in educational and career outcomes, and applied them towards the lives of the men in STEM, most of whom being Caucasian and Asian don't actually have to fight those odds very much at all.
Even when minority students do get STEM degrees, there seems to be a disproportionate barrier to their finding work in those fields. “Top universities turn out black and Hispanic computer science and computer engineering graduates at twice the rate that leading technology companies hire them"
And there is the crux of the problem. Once they are in they are maltreated and marginalized. STEM fields are still very much an old boy network for Asian and Caucasian males. Don't fit into that mold, be prepared to be tortured. Relentlessly. By bosses, by colleagues and by customers.
I am a woman who has been in a STEM field for 20 years. Thing are not getting better. They get worse with each passing year.
And there is the crux of the problem. Once they are in they are maltreated and marginalized. STEM fields are still very much an old boy network for Asian and Caucasian males. Don't fit into that mold, be prepared to be tortured. Relentlessly. By bosses, by colleagues and by customers.
I am a woman who has been in a STEM field for 20 years. Thing are not getting better. They get worse with each passing year.
29
I suspect most of these guys simply do not have the skills required.
In a corporate IT job, successful candidates are expected show up and start working immediately on very complex projects. If, say, you are a J2EE Java programmer you will be immediately thrown onto a complex system that is being redeveloped. There is no documentation and everybody is too busy working to help you. Everything is a non-standard kludge, and the specs were written by complete idiots. Only very sharp people with lots of skills can survive in such an environment.
In a corporate IT job, successful candidates are expected show up and start working immediately on very complex projects. If, say, you are a J2EE Java programmer you will be immediately thrown onto a complex system that is being redeveloped. There is no documentation and everybody is too busy working to help you. Everything is a non-standard kludge, and the specs were written by complete idiots. Only very sharp people with lots of skills can survive in such an environment.
5
When I learned to program computers, even extreme BO was acceptable in the field.
Before joining the chorus for STEM shouldn't we consider why any jobs are devalued in our unequal economy? Why education that is not STEMy enough is poor education? Why, when our "value lords" are doing whatever they can to defund Public Education, are we bending to this ploy, this misdirection? It's all a distraction.
Education reform is not coming from educators who are actually educating but from "educational theorists" who have a great business model that they want to impose on our teachers and students. These "theorists" and policy makers want a compliant population that cannot think, in the classical Cartesian-Platonic-Socratic way. They want mechanics who can run machines, fix machines, and make machines that will replace work and workers. They are the enemies of our future, of our children and grandchildren who hope to drain every remnant of humanity from our society. Or they are weak willed lackeys for the very rich, who are not STEMsters.
The comparisons made with more successful nations are fraudulent. "Because social class inequality is greater in the United States than in any of the countries with which we can reasonably be compared, the relative performance of U.S. adolescents is better than it appears when countries’ national average performance is conventionally compared." http://www.epi.org/publication/us-student-performance-testing
Entering the "rat race" makes you a rat Charles. We can do better.
Education reform is not coming from educators who are actually educating but from "educational theorists" who have a great business model that they want to impose on our teachers and students. These "theorists" and policy makers want a compliant population that cannot think, in the classical Cartesian-Platonic-Socratic way. They want mechanics who can run machines, fix machines, and make machines that will replace work and workers. They are the enemies of our future, of our children and grandchildren who hope to drain every remnant of humanity from our society. Or they are weak willed lackeys for the very rich, who are not STEMsters.
The comparisons made with more successful nations are fraudulent. "Because social class inequality is greater in the United States than in any of the countries with which we can reasonably be compared, the relative performance of U.S. adolescents is better than it appears when countries’ national average performance is conventionally compared." http://www.epi.org/publication/us-student-performance-testing
Entering the "rat race" makes you a rat Charles. We can do better.
22
You'd never know we are all in this race to pursue happiness.
Isn't that a bit like asking why we no longer have a pony express or papyrus makers? We can and should make the effort to subsidize lives and careers of those who choose the mostly-unprofitable arts and classics, but railing against the reality of technological development and economics isn't going to change the fact that painting or philosophy has never, ever been as profitable as business.
1
...and this is the sentiment that devalues STEM education, and discourages minorities and women from entering the fields. Why is the work of a skilled artist or musician held up as more worthy of admiration than the work of an equally skilled engineer or machinist? Making a 'machine to replace work and workers' does not necessarily drain us our humanity, it rather has the potential to allow us to develop our humanity. Or do you not see the dishwasher, clothes washer, etc. in your home that allows you and billions more the leisure time to be an artist or musician if you wish? This elitist attitude blinds us to the value of 'useful' work (including STEM), and discourages our children from considering the full range of human activity as potential careers.
There's a wonderful film by Penn Jillette available on NetFlix. It's entitled "Tim's Vermeer" and documents inventor-entrepreneur Tim Jenison's efforts to rediscover optical devices and techniques likely used by Dutch artist Johannes Vermeer in achieving such realistic representations of light and color in his masterworks, which he painted more than 150 years before the invention of photography.
In the course of the film, Tim recreates Vermeer's painting "The Music Lesson" and, much the Renaissance man, himself, Jenison reminds us that there was a time when one did not set out to study art OR technology, but studied whatever areas of both were necessary to accomplish one's ends, whether artistic, literary, scientific, whatever.
In the course of the film, Tim recreates Vermeer's painting "The Music Lesson" and, much the Renaissance man, himself, Jenison reminds us that there was a time when one did not set out to study art OR technology, but studied whatever areas of both were necessary to accomplish one's ends, whether artistic, literary, scientific, whatever.
12
…or Vermeer simply knew how to draw, an ability that Hockney never felt like developing.
2
i talked recently with a friend whose daughter is studying engineering. She told me that she encourages her daughter to take her degree into business! . Instead, her daughter has decided to teach! Don't misunderstand, I do believe that we do need great teachers; however, the reason she gave her mom for not entering the business world is that she is not ready to deal with competing with men. My question is, where does this fear come from? From what I have seen, men and women are working together in highly selective fields and are doing it well. Of course, I don't know the particular circumstances that prompted her decision and I must wonder how prevalent those thoughts actually are! I also must wonder what can be done about that!
4
Could be less an issue with men and more of a personal problem. Some folks just don't have the confidence or pride to complete at all. I wouldn't want to be in business. Just the thought that I may rise or fall based on competing with however-many other people makes me nauseated. It's just so much friggin effort. Teaching isn't a rat-race. It's comfortable - albeit hard work - but you don't have to worry about losing your job because you weren't as innovative as the next person.
Where does this fear come from? Oh my....from living in our society. Try to go for a single day without coming across: a new story -( print, radio, TV, web); a lyric;- a plotline (in a book, TV show, movie, podcast); a work encounter; your own trauma; a facebook post; a memory; or a personal anecdote from a friend or a friend of a friend, or colleague about a man (or men) harrassing or harming a woman (or women) because she is a woman. It can require incredible courage for some women to put themselves in the daily world of men. I don't fault those who don't want to put all their daily energy into being "tough enough" to make it in the traditionally male work world, and would prefer to put ALL their energy into their work in less hostile-to-women environment (such as teaching) . Especially since many of these women are saving that energy to give at home to the kids. I don't have a solution, but I certainly see very clearly where the fear comes from.
Yesterday's NY Times piece about tutoring stated that the black and Hispanic teenagers being tutored had reading skills at 3rd-grade level, and math skills at the 3rd-grade level.
I would say that the real problem is not the lack of blacks with college degrees in STEM subjects, but a total lack of any knowledge whatsoever. These young men are simply unemployable in our society.
Until we find a way of effectively teaching the basics, we don't have any hope.
I would say that the real problem is not the lack of blacks with college degrees in STEM subjects, but a total lack of any knowledge whatsoever. These young men are simply unemployable in our society.
Until we find a way of effectively teaching the basics, we don't have any hope.
69
What might help is reducing black unwed pregnancies. Children born out of wedlock are more likely to be in poverty, become dropouts, be unemployed, get into drugs and crime, become incarcerated and die from homicide. Their chances of even getting to the point of being interested in "science and math" are very, very slim. (The same may hold true for white children born out of wedlock. I don't know.)
1
During four decades as a scientist, engineer and educator, I could not understand why our country did not invest in STEM education for minority students. Having taught a targeted, pre-college course to ease the transition from high school to university, I know that minority students are fully STEM capable. Targeted investment would help redress historic racial wrongs, enhance the stream of domestic students entering STEM, and help a large cadre of minority students step into the middle class and leadership.
Instead, we face a crisis among minority youth, especially young African-American men.
We need to stop buying unnecessary hardware (yet another generation of unneeded bombers, fighter aircraft, updated nuclear weapons, etc.) and invest in the true base of our security -- our people!
Instead, we face a crisis among minority youth, especially young African-American men.
We need to stop buying unnecessary hardware (yet another generation of unneeded bombers, fighter aircraft, updated nuclear weapons, etc.) and invest in the true base of our security -- our people!
20
There are three criteria for success in general but that are particularly required to make it in a STEM field:
1. Home environment - parents that encourage and value education, often making additional resources available. My brother, a successful chemical engineer and dabbler in electronics, had a work shop in our basement.
2. Schooling - having teachers that are devoted and encouraging of those children that show an interest in STEM and then engage their students in learning. My brother still speaks highly of his chemistry teacher from high school which was 40 years ago.
3. Self sacrifice - there is some degree of intuitive knowledge required in a STEM field, but these studies always require a lot more work than your run of the mill liberal arts studies.
Two of these are about family and values, something that it is up to parents to instill and children to have a degree of commitment. Schooling is about resources, but more importantly about the value of education.
The point is that much of what Blow points out is about self-segregation, not about some sort of inherent animus and racism.
1. Home environment - parents that encourage and value education, often making additional resources available. My brother, a successful chemical engineer and dabbler in electronics, had a work shop in our basement.
2. Schooling - having teachers that are devoted and encouraging of those children that show an interest in STEM and then engage their students in learning. My brother still speaks highly of his chemistry teacher from high school which was 40 years ago.
3. Self sacrifice - there is some degree of intuitive knowledge required in a STEM field, but these studies always require a lot more work than your run of the mill liberal arts studies.
Two of these are about family and values, something that it is up to parents to instill and children to have a degree of commitment. Schooling is about resources, but more importantly about the value of education.
The point is that much of what Blow points out is about self-segregation, not about some sort of inherent animus and racism.
160
I don't disagree with the conditions for STEM success that you list. But I actually think that many teenagers and young people don't realize that it's extra hard work, rather than innate mathematical brilliance, that is required in order to go into the sciences. Many of them do instead lack confidence, since they themselves on some level accept stereotypes according to which their own demographic group is just naturally "bad at math."
3
I agree but just telling a teenage mother to "have family values" isn't going to fix the problem.
Yes, but you omit the poverty factor. How many young people in the categories Mr. Blow discusses, interested in science, live in homes with basements and families that can create one's own chemistry lab?
I am not disputing all you say, just trying to expand the conversation to include standard of living issues. Poverty and the reality of its consequences, like insufficient parental support and stimulation, etc., are core factors.
I am not disputing all you say, just trying to expand the conversation to include standard of living issues. Poverty and the reality of its consequences, like insufficient parental support and stimulation, etc., are core factors.
I have a first hand experience in looking at this issues from the point of view of a STEM PhD program. Our program, which is quite representative, makes a special effort to attract underrepresented minorities including activities at the undergraduate level to develop the "pipeline". Yet we are the reflection of the poor statistics described in the article. The main reason at the back end of the process is that there are very few qualified candidates. Why is the big "front end" question. Leaving in an urban environment I can see that we loose huge fraction of potentials candidates at the elementary school onward due to concentrated poverty. This perhaps do not explain everything. There must be a culture that drives the best candidates to other fields (law, medicine). The end result is the poor state we are in.
41
I had actually heard this explanation several decades ago in a study looking at what white vs black students hoped to gain from a higher education. Black student were far more likely to look for social advancement and power and financial success, which makes sense if you live in a society where you are discriminated against. Therefore, a black student with the same STEM credentials is more likely to choose medicine over basic science, business over economics, law over sociology.
1
Poverty or lack of capability as the primary reason.
Mr. Blow,
Have you looked at the demographics in the STEM fields lately? Welcome to the global economy. We are all competing for those jobs.
There are two new realities:
1. The US needs to get its entire population up to speed in STEM.
2. If African-Americans don't learn how to compete, they will be left behind.
Have you looked at the demographics in the STEM fields lately? Welcome to the global economy. We are all competing for those jobs.
There are two new realities:
1. The US needs to get its entire population up to speed in STEM.
2. If African-Americans don't learn how to compete, they will be left behind.
14
As always, I'm one of AACNY's "thumbs"; and, of course, she's right. My way of arguing these social issues, and this is what Charles's offering today really involves, is more oblique. But as hard as she can be, she's not less right on this.
Americans need to grow up. It's not a kind world out there.
Americans need to grow up. It's not a kind world out there.
2
@AACNY - "If African-Americans don't learn how to compete" That's a contemptible statement given our past and current racial issues. And perhaps you'd like to suggest that women learn to compete as well since they lag behind men as per the numbers in this article?
2
It doesn't help that the role models for kids are athletes. Most kids cannot attain that degree of athleticism, but more can do better in STEM disciplines. Furthermore, technology has helped kids become more engaged in their studies. Programs such as Dreambox.com teach math effectively and in a fun way. There are also incentives (e.g., points) that kids get.
Another thing is that many school budgets don't include money for field trips. (PTOs often pay for them.) There is no substitution for going to a nature center and seeing different types of seeds and touching animals. Oh, and the Metropolitan Museum of Art's Learning To Look art appreciation program, which has no technology, but is visual and tactile, teaches kids to look for geometric shapes and patterns and ties in with history lessons. What enhances that is a trip to an art museum. Is anyone willing to give $3,000 so that a group of kids can go to the museum?
Another thing is that many school budgets don't include money for field trips. (PTOs often pay for them.) There is no substitution for going to a nature center and seeing different types of seeds and touching animals. Oh, and the Metropolitan Museum of Art's Learning To Look art appreciation program, which has no technology, but is visual and tactile, teaches kids to look for geometric shapes and patterns and ties in with history lessons. What enhances that is a trip to an art museum. Is anyone willing to give $3,000 so that a group of kids can go to the museum?
12
"It doesn't help that the role models for kids are athletes."
Learning the work ethic of great athletes would be a fine role model for any student. During the Super Bowl yesterday they explained how one exceptional player showed up early for practice every day, worked very hard, and by pure drive made himself a great athlete. If you looked closer, you'd see the same sort of thing for every winner.
Talent is necessary. It won't replace hard work. That is the place for role models.
Learning the work ethic of great athletes would be a fine role model for any student. During the Super Bowl yesterday they explained how one exceptional player showed up early for practice every day, worked very hard, and by pure drive made himself a great athlete. If you looked closer, you'd see the same sort of thing for every winner.
Talent is necessary. It won't replace hard work. That is the place for role models.
Everything you speak about is on target. It set me thinking to how awful it is that low HS graduation rates are still the measure of a school's "success" when - we know that graduation does not even mean achieving basic writing or math skills. And how we know that preschool is vital but it is simply not offered to all children.
For children who do not have "innate" abilities, and resources that get them private instruction, public schools' introduction to math and science at the elementary level assumes that the teachers need not have much in the way of math and science background. Many have poor skills and a negative - or fearful -attitude towards these areas. Once this wasn't so important - but today these skills have to be introduced much earlier by teachers comfortable with concepts to lay a foundation -- and to show students how to learn.
Hiring discrimination in these fields - having read about the Silicon Valley levels of misogyny, I would say we apparently also need other types of education, as well. It's easy for any group who has risen to some level of power to look for others who look like themselves -- and be in total denial that they aren't looking at skills necessary for the job but at skin color, gender, origin, etc. There has to be more awareness and more investigation of discrimination and legal action. Affirmative action.
But there must be more well educated highly skilled people of color and women out there, and young people have to have
For children who do not have "innate" abilities, and resources that get them private instruction, public schools' introduction to math and science at the elementary level assumes that the teachers need not have much in the way of math and science background. Many have poor skills and a negative - or fearful -attitude towards these areas. Once this wasn't so important - but today these skills have to be introduced much earlier by teachers comfortable with concepts to lay a foundation -- and to show students how to learn.
Hiring discrimination in these fields - having read about the Silicon Valley levels of misogyny, I would say we apparently also need other types of education, as well. It's easy for any group who has risen to some level of power to look for others who look like themselves -- and be in total denial that they aren't looking at skills necessary for the job but at skin color, gender, origin, etc. There has to be more awareness and more investigation of discrimination and legal action. Affirmative action.
But there must be more well educated highly skilled people of color and women out there, and young people have to have
1
In the k-12 system, the data shows that just as many women as men are taking stem classes while minorities start to fall behind in high school. The data shows that regardless of high school, STEM classes in college are perceived as difficult (and they are difficult) and many are lost just doing the entry level courses. Preparation and college readiness after k-12 is the problem. Overall, only 32% of all students leaving high school actually qualify as college ready for a 4 year school, 20% of african americans and 16% of hispanics. When looking at STEM freshman undergraduates, the data is even more woeful. Students are not prepared. Second, it is cultural. Research shows that fewer than 20% are actually encouraged to pursue STEM in their homes and those are mostly in homes where someone or someone they know is already in STEM. On the other hand there are a few bright spots. My wife with her Phd is just now wrapping up her 35 year career as a research scientist and I retired from my science career but both of us have mentored and encouraged any number of undergraduates and over 50 successful graduate students mostly PhD's. As to science fairs, next month will be my 28th year of being a judge. Watching and encouraging both women and minorities succeed beyond high school is priceless and I still get letters from those who I encouraged and they succeeded as career scientists.
23
Even if Blacks, Hispanics, and women were to become represented in education and jobs according their proportions in the population at large, we would still be left with the question of why we are crafting a society that suits people who like science and not people who like making things, for example. I grew up in a family biased toward STEM, I was recruited, my first serious boyfriend was quite worried they would succeed and I would be miserable. I would have been miserable. Doesn't that count, too?
10
It counts as far as your job satisfaction. It, unfortunately, doesn't count as far as what you might be paid for the things you like to make. Our economy cares little about self-fulfillment or job satisfaction. We haven't found a way to put a price tag on those things.
I wish you had told us more about why you would have been miserable.
I have found the STEM fields to be full of opportunity to work with fun intelligent people on exciting creative products and technologies that benefit people.
One of my best friends is a well respected human / machine interface designer who works all day with graphics and people to understand what people want to do with a machine (computers, phones, tablets, etc. and all their apps) and how to make the machine do it in a simple easy to use efficient way. There are many creative areas in the STEM fields working with people, art, math, science, research, ... a long list.
My friend (as it happens is a woman) was not a remarkable student in high school or college, but she was hard working and stuck with her education. Now she has a loving husband, four children, a notable professional career with a good income.
I wish you had let us know why this possibility didn't excite you.
I have found the STEM fields to be full of opportunity to work with fun intelligent people on exciting creative products and technologies that benefit people.
One of my best friends is a well respected human / machine interface designer who works all day with graphics and people to understand what people want to do with a machine (computers, phones, tablets, etc. and all their apps) and how to make the machine do it in a simple easy to use efficient way. There are many creative areas in the STEM fields working with people, art, math, science, research, ... a long list.
My friend (as it happens is a woman) was not a remarkable student in high school or college, but she was hard working and stuck with her education. Now she has a loving husband, four children, a notable professional career with a good income.
I wish you had let us know why this possibility didn't excite you.
"[W]e would still be left with the question of why we are crafting a society that suits people who like science and not people who like making things, for example."
How strange. Scientists are the ones who do make things. What is science? Science is making prostheses, iPhones, aeronautical tools, flying machines, chemotherapy drugs, solar batteries, mile-long atom smashers, better forests, and healthy pets.
If you mean why do Americans like science but don't go into it and create even more things, then the answer is this: As a whole, we tend to be intellectually lazy, science takes both imagination and precise understanding, and the money-making is on Wall Street. The rest of us seem content to muddle along, or not.
How strange. Scientists are the ones who do make things. What is science? Science is making prostheses, iPhones, aeronautical tools, flying machines, chemotherapy drugs, solar batteries, mile-long atom smashers, better forests, and healthy pets.
If you mean why do Americans like science but don't go into it and create even more things, then the answer is this: As a whole, we tend to be intellectually lazy, science takes both imagination and precise understanding, and the money-making is on Wall Street. The rest of us seem content to muddle along, or not.
Charles, before I turned to this column i read an email from linkedin about IT jobs in my area,the insurance state, one of the most IT intensive places in the northeast.
What did I find? many of the jobs are being offered by 'consulting' companies, and not just any consulting compamies. The most are offered by those top 3, Infosys, Cognizance and Tata, all from India. The fact that I (an American white woman in my senior years but still wotking) received these job descriptions says nothing about hiring Americans of any group but that that American corporations look off shore for their first line of hiring in the STEMS.
I wish you and so many other opinionators would stop blaming Americans for not choosing STEM and start looking at who gets hired for STEM jobs these days!
What did I find? many of the jobs are being offered by 'consulting' companies, and not just any consulting compamies. The most are offered by those top 3, Infosys, Cognizance and Tata, all from India. The fact that I (an American white woman in my senior years but still wotking) received these job descriptions says nothing about hiring Americans of any group but that that American corporations look off shore for their first line of hiring in the STEMS.
I wish you and so many other opinionators would stop blaming Americans for not choosing STEM and start looking at who gets hired for STEM jobs these days!
121
This is a point that I always bring up; the world is actually full of engineers, more so than is actually needed. American companies decry not the lack of STEM candidates, but the lack of cheaply available STEM candidates. STEM jobs being what they are, largely knowledge based, are also easily transferred around the world. This trend will only accelerate as the ease of real time collaboration across borders, due to technological advancements, accelerates as does the supply of STEM trained candidate as a result of all countries emphasis on it.
5
A truly 'progressive' tax would significantly and punitively tax companies that send their business "offshore" so that their executives and shareholders can take home shameful amounts of profit off the backs of educated and unemployed Americans who can no longer find a decent job. Same with both manufacturing and technology.
3
The fact that you are receiving these offers doesn' mean they think you are a match for the job. What many of these foreign consulting companies are doing these days is "pseudo- search": reach out to people that for some reason "might not be a good match" for the job, even if you are, so they can justify bringing someone from abroad (H1B) because they can't find the "right candidate" here. At this point, the tech field wants "cheapest, most subservient" not brightest and best qualified. I know because, as a consultant, I can't tell you how many times I had been called to teach these candidates the skills they were supposed to have or fix what they did because they obviously did not have the skills they claimed they did. Basic tech careers are not worth pursuing anymore because you can't beat cheap. Anybody thinking of such a career needs to create his/her own opportunity.
3
Next column, Charles: H1B visas, engineers for cheap. Loss of American expertise of any race or gender, just like we did with manufacturing.
I am female, ex-mech E, now in software. Worked at OTA when we still cared about science and engineering, although that time, the 1980s, was the last gasp of caring.
Bring back manufacturing. Pay decent wages. Give us our lunar colony. Pay off college debt for those who major in STEM. Develop new forms of energy and waste disposal, with government -industry collaboration. And find some way to steamroll all the Republicans and industry owned Dems who stand in the way.
I am female, ex-mech E, now in software. Worked at OTA when we still cared about science and engineering, although that time, the 1980s, was the last gasp of caring.
Bring back manufacturing. Pay decent wages. Give us our lunar colony. Pay off college debt for those who major in STEM. Develop new forms of energy and waste disposal, with government -industry collaboration. And find some way to steamroll all the Republicans and industry owned Dems who stand in the way.
131
Hey Blue State, don't you think it's a little bias to blame everyrthing on industry owned by republicans and dems? Did It ever occur to some that some students are not cut out for STEM? No, NO, NO, that would require critcal thinking. Honey, where are my comics and valium?
1
Dear Blue State: Are you helping to organize your fellow workers into a union so that your words can be backed by some real political clout? Or do you expect the "powers that be" to simply grant you these things? And how about talking to Indian, Chinese and workers from other countries to see about organizing across borders, just the way businesses have been doing it for the last 50 years?
I agree with you except for one point. You want to pay off college debt for those who major in STEM. Who taught you to write this post with emotion, logic, and succinctly as well? Who taught you enough about the rest of the world to know about politics, labor unions, visas, and a myriad of other meaningful and relevant topics that has made you more human than a STEM robot? Who will care for you if you are sick in a hospital or teach your children to read? I think all college debt should be paid off - period - for those who do attain a degree.
The weak Obama economy sinks all boats.
The jpb market for STEM degree holders remains poor.
The jpb market for STEM degree holders remains poor.
7
A little training in logic--or ethics--might have precluded a silly comment about the "weak Obama economy."
6
This started long before Obama was president. All jobs are sinking, as technology and automation reduces the value of human labor of all sorts. Granted, Obama has done little to change this, but these eceonomic forces are not easily redirected in a capitalist system.m
I have a PhD in engineering from M.I.T. My children are in high school and university currently, one taking computer science and the other considering a career in medicine.
They have been taught by a succession of mediocre to poor science and math teachers. Their math teachers, particularly in middle school, took a paint-by-the-numbers, mechanistic approach which seemed (to me) to deliberately instill a hatred of mathematics in the students. I told my kids to try to ignore the teacher; she would go away and math would become more enjoyable as somebody else taught it conceptually. Science is taught as a series of things to be memorized; once again, far too few concepts. Science and math are how we describe nature and the world we live in; math is a language; science is what we use math to talk about. There is great beauty and joy to be found in math and science; but not the way it is taught in this country today.
They have been taught by a succession of mediocre to poor science and math teachers. Their math teachers, particularly in middle school, took a paint-by-the-numbers, mechanistic approach which seemed (to me) to deliberately instill a hatred of mathematics in the students. I told my kids to try to ignore the teacher; she would go away and math would become more enjoyable as somebody else taught it conceptually. Science is taught as a series of things to be memorized; once again, far too few concepts. Science and math are how we describe nature and the world we live in; math is a language; science is what we use math to talk about. There is great beauty and joy to be found in math and science; but not the way it is taught in this country today.
308
It can also become so "advanced" and abstract that the basics are lost as was the case in our elementary school math program. It took three paragraphs to explain a simple subtraction problem. I finally paid privately for Kumon so my kids would have the basics. They drilled but learned how to add, subtract, multiply and divide, manipulate fractions, etc., quickly, a prerequisite for all the good stuff that came later.
4
Tom, I think this is what we mean by "teaching to the test". Whether these teachers are mediocre as individuals, the curriculum they represent is a tawdry mess created by a stew of politicians, bureaucrats, degreed victims of the same system, and local officials who range from the ill-informed to the superstitious. This is to some extent the same point that you are making, but, deliberately or not, your comment scapegoats the teachers, who are only one cog in a grinding contraption that should indeed by condemned.
8
I agree with what you have to say. It is far easier to ignore a mediocre teacher and then get lost in reading a great novel assigned by that teacher or immerse yourself in reading about history. When science and math are poorly presented they are dry and lifeless. As one who loved science as a youngster I got turned off by many poor teachers in high school. Fortunately I did have a few excellent ones and did end up in a career in science but it was a serendipitous journey.
2
Once again Mr. Blow forgets that there are plenty of minorities in STEM fields; they just happen to be Asian. Last time I checked, ~6% of the US was made up of Asians, which I think should quality as minority. What he really means is that he wants more AA people in STEM. I would appreciate it if he just said that instead of incorrectly using the term minorities.
170
What do you mean "forgets"? He's got it right there in his table. Of course, one factor promoting the Asian figure is that, if you don't have family connections or the opportunity to come to the U.S. on foot, the surest way is with an educational/occupational visa (the overlap is great).
What you fail to mention is the percentage of these jobs going to H1B emigrants. Even us white guys are finding it harder to compete as the corporations lobby for more visas to import cheaper labor.
108
That is why we need to teach the next generation not only STEM-related skills but also entrepreneurship. With the use and abuse of H1B visas, tech jobs these days are not going to the brightest but to the cheapest and more subservient candidates regardless of tech skills. (If I had a penny for every time I have had to teach these candidates the skills they were supposed to have or have had to fix or redo what they had done) and with big tech companies pushing for more H1Bs, this is not going to change any time soon. Our kids will need to create their own opportunities if they want to be valued for what they can offer and not for how cheap they can be.
2
I see more layoffs in the technology industry than in any other field, where I live. IBM just laid of thousands of engineers last week.
4
We don't see more minorities and women in STEM because we don't teach how to learn in those areas and the culture presents so few models.
13
Uh, I'm pretty sure we didn't have to teach Asians "how to learn" in those areas and they are minorities. Got an answer for that? No, you don't. It doesn't fit your victim narrative.
They are genetically gifted in that area without having Asian American role models to have to look up to.
Jews didn't have to be taught how to learn in these areas either and they were a minority- and guess what? They had a history of being slaves and outcasts, too.
They are genetically gifted in that area without having Asian American role models to have to look up to.
Jews didn't have to be taught how to learn in these areas either and they were a minority- and guess what? They had a history of being slaves and outcasts, too.
3
If you look at the demographics of Stuyvesant High School, NYC's top public STEM school, which were 72.5% Asian, it seems likely that New York City's elite in a couple of generations will be predominantly Asian. I'd bet that and Indian will be the first Asian mayor of New York, but a friend closer to the city suggests that Chinese will be as dominant as Jews have been in her lifetime.
26
Self doubt, stereotypes, discouragement, economics and perceptions. Did you leave anything out? Aptitude, hard work, motivation, ability, delayed gratification, high expectations within the culture, responsible parenting? Not everyone is made to be a STEM major. Not every graduate from every college is as capable as the next. It is not always a result of racism or a conspiracy. Your analysis is far too simple and the problem is far too complex, with multiple levels of responsibility and cause that you never address. You pick and choose examples to make your point but we do not know if these are statistically significant. Who takes the AP exam in Computer science in general? Not a lot of people. Maybe if fewer students majored in "studies" majors, more of them would actually find themselves in money making disciplines when they finished. Maybe if this nanny state of ours actually demanded something of people instead of handing it to them on a platter over multiple generations, people might be motivated to accomplish something. Personal responsibility has to come into it somewhere. Generations of poverty stricken minority immigrants from multiple cultures braved discrimination and lack of opportunity in the past to forge their way to better lives. In the sciences. Your ex wife was a physics major. That is impressive. What did she do with that education? Your twins want to major in Physics and other science. Update us in a few years and tell us what they did with those plans.
47
Did you readthe cited US Today piece that crunches the numbers that shows that thosewho show `aptiutude, hard work,...' do not find jobs after getting the STEM major? If that's not `discouragement', then I don't know what is. http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/10/12/silicon-valley-diversity-t...
1
It's very hard to generate interest in science among students who feel, for whatever reason, that science isn't for them. It will take things like good role models, and repeatedly introducing students to hands-on experiences of diverse kinds. Those efforts take time and expertise and money. In our current environment of ever more disparagement for teachers, and ever more aggressive cutting of education budgets, it's hard to imagine any progress in the coming decades.
Hey, but who knows, maybe more tax cuts and charter schools will magic away the problem. And when they don't, well, we'll hear that yet more tax cuts and yet more charter schools will magic away the problem.
Hey, but who knows, maybe more tax cuts and charter schools will magic away the problem. And when they don't, well, we'll hear that yet more tax cuts and yet more charter schools will magic away the problem.
15
Yes, but let's also recognize that not all are equipped to be scientists. I am not equipped to be a musician; neither am I equipped to be an advanced chess player or advanced mathematician. Tough. I got over it.
I've seen a lot of time and printer-ink wasted on grant proposals that were intended to change the natural aptitudes of students. But I've seen that many a young lad was pushed into science when he'd have made a better care-giver or actor. Many a young girl was deprived of inspiring exposure to the beauty of logic.
I suspect my opening sentence will be judged (wrongly) as sexist or racist. (Another BTW: the sister of my astrophysicist grand-daughter is a sparkling linguist. I can keep going—I have more grandkids to boast on!)
I've seen a lot of time and printer-ink wasted on grant proposals that were intended to change the natural aptitudes of students. But I've seen that many a young lad was pushed into science when he'd have made a better care-giver or actor. Many a young girl was deprived of inspiring exposure to the beauty of logic.
I suspect my opening sentence will be judged (wrongly) as sexist or racist. (Another BTW: the sister of my astrophysicist grand-daughter is a sparkling linguist. I can keep going—I have more grandkids to boast on!)
3
As with so many comments here , the blame is alwys placed on the shoulders of the Public Schools. The inference is that they are inherently racists. The reality is how we fund or have cut funding to those schools is where we must redouble our efforts to create equal opportunities for all. When those schools struggle to provide basic courses and materials we only have ourselves to blame. The number of students taking the AP Computer Science Exam is lower across all groups compared to other AP Exams. So it goes without saying each cohort of ethnic groups will be smaller. This rush for STEM in curriculum and course offereings will not show immediate results. It will take data from a cohort of K-12, and as we all know, that will simply take 13 years to analyze. As with most things in our lives, we think we can snap our fingers come up with some cute slogans or acronyms and we have fixed the problem.
10
Dear e. Blow,
I must admit, I can become very confused reading the NYT editorial pages. As an example, let me use your current column.
You suggest that if the country doesn't graduate enough "STEM" students, these jobs will be gobbled up by other countries and the United States will be losing further ground in this competition (I won't even try to address the huge, smoldering race problem the country is now gestating.).
Then there's Mr. Friedman telling me that since the world is "interconnected and flat", all this humming and buzzing between countries is a good thing for the world at large.
See my confusion? Which vision is the "real" vision?
The only thing I am sure of is that THIS Congress won't be doing anything to address this problem unless there's some "Super Education PAC" that's so dripping with money that both parties will pay attention to it.
For "cold, hard cash" is the only motivator in DC and it's all perfectly, shudder, legal.
I must admit, I can become very confused reading the NYT editorial pages. As an example, let me use your current column.
You suggest that if the country doesn't graduate enough "STEM" students, these jobs will be gobbled up by other countries and the United States will be losing further ground in this competition (I won't even try to address the huge, smoldering race problem the country is now gestating.).
Then there's Mr. Friedman telling me that since the world is "interconnected and flat", all this humming and buzzing between countries is a good thing for the world at large.
See my confusion? Which vision is the "real" vision?
The only thing I am sure of is that THIS Congress won't be doing anything to address this problem unless there's some "Super Education PAC" that's so dripping with money that both parties will pay attention to it.
For "cold, hard cash" is the only motivator in DC and it's all perfectly, shudder, legal.
48
Maybe I can help clear up some of your confusion. First, Blow and Friedman write mostly for the opinion pages of the NYT, not the editorial page. Even then, I see no inconsistency between their opinions about STEM. If, as Friedman says, our economy is linked to the rest of the world's, if that economy requires large numbers of STEM-trained people, and if as Blow says we are not educating enough of our citizens in STEM fields then we will either have to import large numbers of skilled foreign workers or fall behind economically.
Dear Grindelwald,
No, you didn't help very much as both the editorials and the opinions appear in something, at least digitally, called "The Opinion Pages" seemingly implying they are one and the same.
My confusion is that if Mr. Freidman is correct, it matters not where the workers live as long as they work for the company and that these "outside" employees will raise all the boats equally (What helps India, helps the USA, etc.).
If Mr. Blow is correct, then the USA is sunk; we produce less and less, the workers are fewer and make less, their education is deplorable, the country has a race and gender problem that simply seems insoluble and the great maw of capitalism will be fed by others than Americans.
I never assumed the country would be importing "large numbers of skilled foreign workers" but I do believe the USA will just fall behind economically.
Except for a few.
No, you didn't help very much as both the editorials and the opinions appear in something, at least digitally, called "The Opinion Pages" seemingly implying they are one and the same.
My confusion is that if Mr. Freidman is correct, it matters not where the workers live as long as they work for the company and that these "outside" employees will raise all the boats equally (What helps India, helps the USA, etc.).
If Mr. Blow is correct, then the USA is sunk; we produce less and less, the workers are fewer and make less, their education is deplorable, the country has a race and gender problem that simply seems insoluble and the great maw of capitalism will be fed by others than Americans.
I never assumed the country would be importing "large numbers of skilled foreign workers" but I do believe the USA will just fall behind economically.
Except for a few.
You ask if the STEM v non STEM people will be another form of inequality? Well of course they will. They already are and have been for some time. The problem here is that you don't address the real inequality. You just pit two groups that should be allies against each other. The inequalities between a STEM degree and a MFA degree are nothing compared to the massive inequality that the top 1% holds over us all.
21
Hey Gene, if it were not for those pesky 1%'ers, you'd probably not have a job.
1
That implies that STEM jobs are the highest paid jobs and that STEM employees are a huge elite. This is not true. Most STEM jobs are good paying middle class jobs -- nothing more. The average STEM employee is not Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.
It is jobs in FINANCE that pay the most, and these don't necessary require crack math or statistical skills. Many of them are basically sales jobs or "schmoozing jobs" that require the right background and social skills. After that is probably medicine, which though it does require biology and chemistry, is not normally considered a "STEM" job but it's own field.
The choice is not STEM vs. MFA. There are many jobs of all kinds, with all sorts of skills, appealing to a wide variety of people out there.
It is jobs in FINANCE that pay the most, and these don't necessary require crack math or statistical skills. Many of them are basically sales jobs or "schmoozing jobs" that require the right background and social skills. After that is probably medicine, which though it does require biology and chemistry, is not normally considered a "STEM" job but it's own field.
The choice is not STEM vs. MFA. There are many jobs of all kinds, with all sorts of skills, appealing to a wide variety of people out there.
The simple fact is taht some employers still will not hire Africans Americans.This is all about how society and the private sector looks at minorities, especially African Americans, and reason we see a lot of minorities working in government, the institution that neoconservative hate so much. Another reason we see high unemployment rates among African Americans with cutting government spending and austerity measures by Republicans.
22
"The simple fact is taht some employers still will not hire Africans Americans."
Can you provide some facts to back your assertion?
Can you provide some facts to back your assertion?
I find it difficult to believe that a black or "non white" individual that showed ability and drive in STEM fields wouldn't received tons of support, throughout school and in the workforce. Asians succeeded in spite of well documented prejudice.
If you're looking hard enough, you can find a racist behind every tree and under every rock.
If you're looking hard enough, you can find a racist behind every tree and under every rock.
225
Large corporations aren't much like that. They are looking for experienced guys who are ready and able to work on highly complex projects shortly after being shown their desk and given a computer. Those who can't hack it don't get very far.
4
Tim W@ That is why it's a fact education has short changed the American populace your response proves so.
"Asians succeeded in spite of well documented prejudice."
As always the false equivalent. You can't compare a people who were first told if they learned to read that they would be punished and possibly lose their lives. Secondly, when there was an opportunity to educate these people the will wasn't there from the govt., it was seen as a waste of time. Hence,"separate but equal", which was a farce. Education of blacks was done primarily by blacks with little or no resources. Blacks banded together to educate those they could, understanding the value of education. America did its best to dispirit them....
The real kicker is, whites fought blacks that wanted an equal education. How about Miss State? Riots, killing. How about school bussing in Boston the 70's turning over buses with children in them? Whites have not just denied blacks an education they were ready to kill them to maintain the status quo.
For every story you have of an Asian being prejudiced against there are probably 100 horrific instances of blacks being denied.
The reason many try to compare other cultures, which speaks to not only cultural incompetence, but historical ignorance; is to blame them for this nation's failure.
Every culture has its own unique experiences, to "compare" is as ridiculous as the thought of the white establishment wanting to see blacks or asians educated to begin with....
"Asians succeeded in spite of well documented prejudice."
As always the false equivalent. You can't compare a people who were first told if they learned to read that they would be punished and possibly lose their lives. Secondly, when there was an opportunity to educate these people the will wasn't there from the govt., it was seen as a waste of time. Hence,"separate but equal", which was a farce. Education of blacks was done primarily by blacks with little or no resources. Blacks banded together to educate those they could, understanding the value of education. America did its best to dispirit them....
The real kicker is, whites fought blacks that wanted an equal education. How about Miss State? Riots, killing. How about school bussing in Boston the 70's turning over buses with children in them? Whites have not just denied blacks an education they were ready to kill them to maintain the status quo.
For every story you have of an Asian being prejudiced against there are probably 100 horrific instances of blacks being denied.
The reason many try to compare other cultures, which speaks to not only cultural incompetence, but historical ignorance; is to blame them for this nation's failure.
Every culture has its own unique experiences, to "compare" is as ridiculous as the thought of the white establishment wanting to see blacks or asians educated to begin with....
109
"Ability and drive" are not promoted in all schools. In what kinds of soil do they germinate and flourish?
The under representation of minorities and women in STEM jobs is stark and troubling. Even worse is the difficulty facing minorities and women with advanced STEM degrees of finding appropriate STEM jobs, much less advancing in these fields.
Society has a long way to go on the racial and gender equity fronts, even or especially on behalf of those who have paid their dues.
Society has a long way to go on the racial and gender equity fronts, even or especially on behalf of those who have paid their dues.
6
Why are three-fourths of information technology workers male? Do such sex differences by career need our attention or not? See http://worksnewage.blogspot.com/2013/11/unequal-sex-distribution-in-it-a... .
1
Of course it's worthy of attention. And much of it starts with Barbie dolls. Whole generations of girls were lucky if they were steered towards secretarial or nursing work. I know a school where, some years ago, the "computers were reserved for the boys."
9
There has been a steady assault by some groups on science for decades. In issue after issue (climate change, vaccinations, evolution, genetic modification, stem cells) scientific findings have been challenged by religion or other anecdotal belief systems.
Of the STEM disciplines, technology and engineering relate closely to career choices. Science and math not only are associated with jobs, but also are a knowledge base critical to the development of one's world view. For some age groups in America more people believe in astrology than in evolution.
Science is outgrowing American culture. Its advances are unacceptable to persistent belief systems that may have been intellectually tenable hundreds of years ago but certainly are not today. It is sad that women and minorities are underrepresented in STEM professions. It is even sadder that we as a country show so little respect for science as a means of gaining knowledge.
Of the STEM disciplines, technology and engineering relate closely to career choices. Science and math not only are associated with jobs, but also are a knowledge base critical to the development of one's world view. For some age groups in America more people believe in astrology than in evolution.
Science is outgrowing American culture. Its advances are unacceptable to persistent belief systems that may have been intellectually tenable hundreds of years ago but certainly are not today. It is sad that women and minorities are underrepresented in STEM professions. It is even sadder that we as a country show so little respect for science as a means of gaining knowledge.
480
Belief in the sciences and the humanities are not mutually exclusive. You can study both evolution and astrology; in fact, I would argue that the vast majority of practitioners of astrology accept evolution. It's the biblical literalists who have a problem with evolution, not astrologers.
Science also has a dark side that few advocates ever talk about. The greatest threat to the planet today remains the unintended impact of our technologies of construction and destruction - the pesticides that kill off our bee colonies, the emissions that both poison our bodies and accelerate climate change, the fearsome weapons of mass destruction that may one day, if unleashed, kill us all. Each of these are the product of science, not true religion, the humanities, or the intuitive arts.
If human beings better knew how to live within their own skin, in inescapable relationship with its environment and each other, there would be less of an urgent need for scientific advances to counteract the unintended consequences of earlier scientific advances - the advances that, in fact, are propelling climate change (and every horror that will accompany it).
If mankind one day decimates all life on this planet, it will be the STEM professions that gave it the tools to do so - not the poets, the saints, or the natural magicians.
Science also has a dark side that few advocates ever talk about. The greatest threat to the planet today remains the unintended impact of our technologies of construction and destruction - the pesticides that kill off our bee colonies, the emissions that both poison our bodies and accelerate climate change, the fearsome weapons of mass destruction that may one day, if unleashed, kill us all. Each of these are the product of science, not true religion, the humanities, or the intuitive arts.
If human beings better knew how to live within their own skin, in inescapable relationship with its environment and each other, there would be less of an urgent need for scientific advances to counteract the unintended consequences of earlier scientific advances - the advances that, in fact, are propelling climate change (and every horror that will accompany it).
If mankind one day decimates all life on this planet, it will be the STEM professions that gave it the tools to do so - not the poets, the saints, or the natural magicians.
11
I would be curious to know statistically how many Silicon Valley computer science engineers or cloud platform managers as well as CEO's of tech or engineering companies vote for the Republican anti-science party. It might underscore that teaching your kids valuable career skills is quite different than voting as far as aligning personal interests go.
1
Ken H, thank you for bringing up this kind of "science divide," a divide between those who base their lives and their work on evidence-based science, and those who rely on "magical thinking." And you may be correct about science outgrowing American culture, in that evidence-based science flies in the face of belief systems based on Bronze Age notions of reality. Those who believe this wonderously complex and ancient Earth and all it's
life were created in an instant, or in a few days, who dismiss powerful scientific evidence of man-caused climate change, are doomed to the most menial types of jobs (excluding many members of Congress), shut off from most of the new opportunities technology and science offer.
life were created in an instant, or in a few days, who dismiss powerful scientific evidence of man-caused climate change, are doomed to the most menial types of jobs (excluding many members of Congress), shut off from most of the new opportunities technology and science offer.
1
Schools cannot do much if the socio-cultural (and hence, workplace) acceptance for men & women in science fields is shot. I am an immigrant engineer, came to the US with a degree in Electronics Engineering with focus on Computers & Information systems. It was not a cakewalk pursuing this degree back home in India at the time either, but hard work, determination and a natural flair for mathematics were important factors.
I assumed that it was a natural progression for a high performing candidate like me to seek greater opportunities in the progressive Developed world, and I did find a good job here.
The workplace experience was a shocker, where there were disproportionately fewer women colleagues in the field, and the male colleagues either expected nothing much from a woman, a younger woman I might add, and an immigrant no less! As I became more settled here, it was interesting to notice the much larger percentage of women in services than engineering or medicine. Shocking, because almost all the doctors in my life thus far in India were females.
Not a criticism but an observation/Rx: Nothing will change till parents, importantly mothers, themselves encourage and take the time to invest in nurturing the STEM related interests & talents in their girls. Stop expecting or blaming the teachers and take responsibility right from the beginning when growing brains are getting wired.
I assumed that it was a natural progression for a high performing candidate like me to seek greater opportunities in the progressive Developed world, and I did find a good job here.
The workplace experience was a shocker, where there were disproportionately fewer women colleagues in the field, and the male colleagues either expected nothing much from a woman, a younger woman I might add, and an immigrant no less! As I became more settled here, it was interesting to notice the much larger percentage of women in services than engineering or medicine. Shocking, because almost all the doctors in my life thus far in India were females.
Not a criticism but an observation/Rx: Nothing will change till parents, importantly mothers, themselves encourage and take the time to invest in nurturing the STEM related interests & talents in their girls. Stop expecting or blaming the teachers and take responsibility right from the beginning when growing brains are getting wired.
27
I agree that mothers-- and fathers!-- should take interest in their daughters pursuing STEM studies. That is part of the solution, but so is revising the attitudes of those in STEM industries.
I see the same thing in my industry, commercial real estate. Women still lag in attaining top positions in the field, although gains are being made. Some of the lag is due to male attitudes-- often subtle,sometimes less so-- that women are less competent and less assertive.
I see the same thing in my industry, commercial real estate. Women still lag in attaining top positions in the field, although gains are being made. Some of the lag is due to male attitudes-- often subtle,sometimes less so-- that women are less competent and less assertive.
12
And I would add, mothers should stop making cringe-worthy statements like "I can't to math to save my life." That is a bad example to your children. Why can't you do math? Street children all over the world so that, they they haven't had a chance to go to school!
13
Absolutely! The young boy delivering milk to my parents' house hasn't seen a day in school. But he's wicked sharp at knowing the total for milk bottles delivered, and mental math for figuring out the change to return. Just one of many real life, 'Every day Math' examples. My kids were forbidden against using calculators, until 7th grade, much to the chagrin of their teachers. They're now happy (and thankful) about not developing an over reliance on gadgets for menial tasks. :)
3
In some states, school boards are imposing personal views upon an educational system already struggling. Creationism, scientific fact denial and even historical revision are impacting the selection of textbooks. Our educational system is under assault by people with a political agenda. They cheat our children out of the truth.
30
This is sort of rambling but essentially I suggest there are some fundamental issues that a lot of Americans don't want to deal with. Back when I was in high school (1950s) there were few females in upper math and science classes--and no girls' athletic teams except in a few schools that had co-ed tennis. This has changed, but today few women are in leadership positions in either athletics or STEM careers. Back in the day there were few blacks in college and lots of red-lining in neighborhoods in the northern states--let alone the problems in the South. Now the Supreme Court says all that has gone away and everything is hunky-dory. So sayeth those savvy experts on the US Supreme Court. So now there are no problems with STEM classes and careers--and the young women get paid on an equal basis with white men. And a week or so ago a GOP lawmaker said that minimum wage jobs should be kept low because they are for teenagers and minorities. Minorities he says. And then there is Sen. Imhofe from Oklahoma. Now there is a real man of science. So sad--and dangerous to our future.
12
A friend of my son had a job interview with a tech company and they
were so impressed that they wanted to hire him.
Then they asked: "Which part of India do you come from?"
He replied: "I'm not from India". "Well, they continued, "which part of
Pakistan?". He said: "I'm from Mexico".
He never heard from them again...
were so impressed that they wanted to hire him.
Then they asked: "Which part of India do you come from?"
He replied: "I'm not from India". "Well, they continued, "which part of
Pakistan?". He said: "I'm from Mexico".
He never heard from them again...
90
I don't know about California, but I believe that such questions of job applicants are illegal here in NY. I'm retired now, but when I was working I know that interviewers were not allowed to ask personal questions having nothing to do with the job in question: age, marital status, children, or even something seemingly innocuous like "what brings you to this area?" were considered skating too close to the edge.
2
Did your friend's son complain to the state attorney general? Just asking questions to determine ethnicity probably broke a few state/federal laws.
1
As a bit of an aside; our educational goal, as a country, used to be to provide a useful skill to all of our young people. Whether that skill came through university study, a trade school, an apprenticeship, etc didn't matter. It then morphed into all kids will go to college, (regardless of whether they had the desire or aptitude) and finally, all kids will go to college and become an engineer. (what percentage of the population is really able to become a computer engineer?) At the behest of corporations that are tiring of paying high wages to technically skilled workers, most countries on earth are driving their young populations into STEM careers. How much longer, if not already, until there is a glut of engineers and shortfall of electricians?
This insipid focus on STEM careers at every level of our educational system is crowding and, ultimately, pushing out all other educational options for our kids. The school system is becoming a perverse microcosm of our greater economy. You have the mathematically and scientifically inclined students excelling as their class options expand while the rest, the majority, of the student body is left with a dwindling pool of alternative options. Even the ones lucky enough to get spots in classes that are of interest to them find that those classes are a mere afterthought, providing no real chances for advancement in that arena. Instead of reducing inequality, I fear that we are simply reinforcing it for another generation.
This insipid focus on STEM careers at every level of our educational system is crowding and, ultimately, pushing out all other educational options for our kids. The school system is becoming a perverse microcosm of our greater economy. You have the mathematically and scientifically inclined students excelling as their class options expand while the rest, the majority, of the student body is left with a dwindling pool of alternative options. Even the ones lucky enough to get spots in classes that are of interest to them find that those classes are a mere afterthought, providing no real chances for advancement in that arena. Instead of reducing inequality, I fear that we are simply reinforcing it for another generation.
22
Just to be clear, as a chemistry teacher, I obviously love science and am grateful for the benefits that the increased focus has brought to my students that love it as well. I also realize though, that it is not for everyone. My classroom has certainly benefited from the shift of limited funds away from subjects like art, theater, shop, etc, but I have also seen what that has done to the students that love those fields. Even if it were possible to teach every students to mastery in math and science, what kind of world would that create? I have many students that excel at even the most challenging topics I throw at them, yet find their purpose and joy elsewhere. A world in which those kids don't have the chance to pursue those passions is truly a nightmare straight from the mind Orwell.
25
Marie: engineers tend to be dull and drab in personality, with notable exceptions. They are rule followers because that is what the field of study requires. They are "group think" sorts, because that is a necessary component of their success. They are sticklers for arcane details because their work depends upon it. They are not ALL that our country needs, and I am surprised that Charles so easily jumps on this bandwagon. We absolutely need artists and writers and, well, thinkers, if our society is to thrive. We need people to major in psychology so they can help the mentally ill. We need history majors so they can teach future young people lessons from the past. That said, the powers that be much prefer the engineers because they are so much easier to control; Orwellian indeed.
2
Karen, that is not true about engineers. They are highly intelligent and some of the most interesting people you will meet.
2
If the airlines had not lost that science project, imagine where you might be today!
One thing you did not mention: the gender/sexual experimentation/diversity acceptance rates can be great amongst the highly educated scientific crowd. Maybe it's a way of thinking, maybe it's more pay leading to better options, but there is that.
If people knew, how kinky scientists can be, I bet more would be signing up, over the arts! (just doing my bit here, sir, to up those numbers.)
One thing you did not mention: the gender/sexual experimentation/diversity acceptance rates can be great amongst the highly educated scientific crowd. Maybe it's a way of thinking, maybe it's more pay leading to better options, but there is that.
If people knew, how kinky scientists can be, I bet more would be signing up, over the arts! (just doing my bit here, sir, to up those numbers.)
5
My daughter is a structural engineer, that of course is a male dominated field. She has put up with all manner of harassment since she was in public school, where she graduated in the top 5% of her class from the top public academic high school in the country. She initially had a full academic scholarship in chemical engineering to a public university, but after 2 years gave that up to change her major and attend another public university and major in in structural engineering. She graduated 3rd in her class from a that public university with the 5th ranked engineering department in the country, and had a job before she ever graduated.
Her first job with an international construction firm, she was constantly demeaned and harassed by the "good old boys" network. After 2 years of this, she took a job with another large company where she was promoted.
She now enjoys her job and the people she works with, who treat her with the respect she richly deserves.
My point to all of this is my daughter has overcome many obstacles in the math and science fields throughout her life. She is not just a woman, but also a proud member of the one and only true minority in this country, she is also a native American.
Success in life is not about the color of your skin, or your ethnicity, it's about self-determination, sacrifice and hard work. My daughter has never used her gender, or ethnicity as a crutch or an excuse, she has used these as motivation for success.
Her first job with an international construction firm, she was constantly demeaned and harassed by the "good old boys" network. After 2 years of this, she took a job with another large company where she was promoted.
She now enjoys her job and the people she works with, who treat her with the respect she richly deserves.
My point to all of this is my daughter has overcome many obstacles in the math and science fields throughout her life. She is not just a woman, but also a proud member of the one and only true minority in this country, she is also a native American.
Success in life is not about the color of your skin, or your ethnicity, it's about self-determination, sacrifice and hard work. My daughter has never used her gender, or ethnicity as a crutch or an excuse, she has used these as motivation for success.
97
You betray your own point. Success is not just about hard work and talent, and as your daughter learnt, there are many hard working talented individuals who because they did not fit certain prejudices never made it through to find the kind of positron she eventually did. Kudos to her, but let's keep fighting to remove the roadblocks to a true meritocracy.
12
Success also requires "self-determination, sacrifice and hard work" by loving parents who themselves have a support group around them. (It takes a village...). One suspects that your daughter was well endowed in that area. You are proud of your daughter's accomplishments and rightfully so; they are your accomplishments as well. There are many children who are not as lucky as your daughter was to be born into a loving, nurturing, supportive environment.
9
I'm not sure the message you are sending is the one you think you are sending. Your daughter is very admirable! However, it seems as if she also (1) had a very supportive parent, and (2) hit a series of unconscionable obstacles in her career. Think how much further she might have gotten with a less destructive school and work environments. To the extent that those obstacles are present to a much greater extent for anyone outside the preferred groups, they are a major problem for a society that is supposed to hold equal opportunity as a foundational value.
1
Oh Charles! How trite! I suppose you're entitled to a breather. Science doesn't segregate people--people do. And stop with this "love science." Much better you should respect science, as in respecting as good a means of understanding our world as the human race has so far managed. What's the alternative? The Bible?
PS: It's the education system, from cradle to parchment, silly!
PS: It's the education system, from cradle to parchment, silly!
5
It's the way people allocate the resources needed to educate and the quality of education children of color receive as a result.
There is nothing trite or disrespectful here. Just facts and excellent analysis.
There is nothing trite or disrespectful here. Just facts and excellent analysis.
16
Gee, a little acerbic for this early in the morning, no? When the former president of Harvard University (Lawrence Summers) stands up and boldly states that men outperform women in math and science because of biological difference, and discrimination is no longer a career barrier for female academics, we have a segregation issue. When a group of people, a little over half the American population, and told from 'cradle to parchment,' to quote you, that they cannot do math or science, they believe it. You would too. Instead, women are shifted to degrees and jobs with little pay: teaching, nursing (getting better for some) and social work. Women are more educated with more degrees and more higher degrees than men, yet we still make less than men. Facts are facts.
18
"People" are "science"? If I can't criticize CB when he's trite, how can my praise be of any value? That's also "education."
3
Yes the lack of minorities in science is a very real problem clearly related to racial and minority issues in this country.
But also the disdain for science and scientific fact by conservative Republican politicians, media pundits such as those on Fox news, and bible thumping school board members who think the earth is 6,000 years old are part of the problem as well.
Public education has been compromised steadily since the Reagan administration. We are way behind the rest of the industrialized world. This portends very badly for the future.
It must be stopped.
But also the disdain for science and scientific fact by conservative Republican politicians, media pundits such as those on Fox news, and bible thumping school board members who think the earth is 6,000 years old are part of the problem as well.
Public education has been compromised steadily since the Reagan administration. We are way behind the rest of the industrialized world. This portends very badly for the future.
It must be stopped.
152
It is easy to blame the past. What are we doing now to support people who are interested in STEM? Many organizations are helping.
Here is one of them : http://www.womeninbio.org/ywib
Let me know if you / other readers need more info
Here is one of them : http://www.womeninbio.org/ywib
Let me know if you / other readers need more info
4
The stats on women didn't seem as bad as expected. If almost 30% of STEM jobs are currently held by women, the question is how has this been changing over time? Is it going up--as I hope and suspect--or stagnant?
2
Changes like this take time. In my own family my son studies engineering but my nieces and nephew did not. Even the 3 daughters of a math major father did not (a father who worked as a manager then executive for heavy industry). The girls ended up with general liberal arts degrees, and one got a master's in social work. (One girl even went to culinary school). They are doing well, but they are not examples of a new paradigm for girls. As far an minorities, it is harder for me to suggest what to do, but we cannot blame it entirely on the schools.
Maybe in 20 years we will see something entirely different. But it takes time and something else to change what is clearly embedded culture.
Maybe in 20 years we will see something entirely different. But it takes time and something else to change what is clearly embedded culture.
4
From here there isn't much anti female bias in STEM for Asians
But at Harvard there is a lawsuit that Harvard discriminates against Asians,
As for substandard education for young persons of color, well, somehow substandard eduction and public education seem co-located
But at Harvard there is a lawsuit that Harvard discriminates against Asians,
As for substandard education for young persons of color, well, somehow substandard eduction and public education seem co-located
4
Very informative. I looked up demographics in the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#2013_birt...
Let's do a simple comparison (with all the caveats about data sources etc ignored for now).... . If we look at the data shown in this article along with the numbers in the Wikipedia entry, the discrepancies are highlighted even more. Showing the numbers from the two sources as:
(working in the field/percentage of population)
White (71/72) Blacks (5/13) Asian (17/5) Hispanic (6/16)
That is very striking indeed!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#2013_birt...
Let's do a simple comparison (with all the caveats about data sources etc ignored for now).... . If we look at the data shown in this article along with the numbers in the Wikipedia entry, the discrepancies are highlighted even more. Showing the numbers from the two sources as:
(working in the field/percentage of population)
White (71/72) Blacks (5/13) Asian (17/5) Hispanic (6/16)
That is very striking indeed!
3
I can't speak to the problems with black and other minority students, but I think I can say a bit with respect to female students in physics, math, and engineering. In 42 years of Univ teaching in physics and mechanical engineering, I came across only one female student who didn't have at least one parent who was in either math, the physical sciences, or engineering. (Many had both.) These parents hadn't 'pushed' STEM fields incidentally.
The peer pressure from late middle school on is that 'real (?) women don't do anything that involves math.'
This was true 60 years ago, and (according to my last students from 10 years ago) remains true.
I suspect that something similar is true in the black and Hispanic communities.
The peer pressure from late middle school on is that 'real (?) women don't do anything that involves math.'
This was true 60 years ago, and (according to my last students from 10 years ago) remains true.
I suspect that something similar is true in the black and Hispanic communities.
22
Children are easily influenced. When I was in 2nd grade I was learning measurements (US Customary Units) I was working on the homework problem of measuring our yard with in the front of the house in yards. I had a 12" ruler and chalk so it was easy enough but then I couldn't remember how many feet were in a yard so I asked my mom. She told me a yard is as long as our yard so it was as long as it was. Of course I got the answer wrong on my homework. When I complained to my mother she told me it wasn't her fault - math is for men and only men understand. Girls, apparently, could only learn to add and subtract.
I spent, just like all children in the USA, learning the US Customary Unit of mathematics. What a waste of time. The US Customary Unit and the Imperial Unit make math extremely complicated. In the hospital we used metrics. I quickly saw the advantage of metrics over fractions. If the US wants to compete then they need to switch to metrics and stop telling and demostrating to children how difficult math is by insisting on using an arcane systems that was never intended nor workable in today's technology driven age.
I'm married to a scientist/engineer, I'll tell you what Europe, China, and probably the rest of the world think about American's failure to succeed with the STEM. The opinion is that America prefers to import doctorates in STEM rather than spend the money on the education that would produce the experts.
I spent, just like all children in the USA, learning the US Customary Unit of mathematics. What a waste of time. The US Customary Unit and the Imperial Unit make math extremely complicated. In the hospital we used metrics. I quickly saw the advantage of metrics over fractions. If the US wants to compete then they need to switch to metrics and stop telling and demostrating to children how difficult math is by insisting on using an arcane systems that was never intended nor workable in today's technology driven age.
I'm married to a scientist/engineer, I'll tell you what Europe, China, and probably the rest of the world think about American's failure to succeed with the STEM. The opinion is that America prefers to import doctorates in STEM rather than spend the money on the education that would produce the experts.
210
Love that story about the "yard" and the "yard!" Belly laughs all around the breakfast table. Thank you!
5
Be thankful you didn't have to learn furlongs, rods, poles, and perches. Never mind having to learn pounds, shilling, pence, half-crowns, florins, ha'pence and farthings at the same time.
9
I grew up with the imperial measurement system and pounds, shillings and pence. Then Australia changed to metric and dollars in 1966. Learning to switch between both systems was a great boost to mental maths agility. And I get a real kick in the supermarket at being able to add up in my head faster than the cash register.
5
The reason STEM education is more valuable than other types of education is because it is a lot of work to get a degree in a STEM field. As a college student I had to study 12 hours a day to stay ahead.....two points:
a) The reason I was able to have the time to study is because my parents could afford to pay for my education and I did not have to have a job.
b) In my opinion most students, given the opportunity, are not willing to work as hard as is required to master a STEM subject.
a) The reason I was able to have the time to study is because my parents could afford to pay for my education and I did not have to have a job.
b) In my opinion most students, given the opportunity, are not willing to work as hard as is required to master a STEM subject.
157
I'm sorry I have to dispute this. I have a BS in Math and a MS in Computer Science. My best friend in college was an English major. She worked so much harder than I ever had to.
The culture in some STEM areas is improving but has in the recent past been rather toxic. I have worked in commercial software for 15 years, much of that time quite miserably. I can't say I blame most women for wanting to avoid it.
The culture in some STEM areas is improving but has in the recent past been rather toxic. I have worked in commercial software for 15 years, much of that time quite miserably. I can't say I blame most women for wanting to avoid it.
1
AND they don't know how to study those subjects.
As a chemistry teacher at an inner city school, I have seen each point mentioned here too often. By the time most of my students get to me, they are so demoralized by past failures resulting from an astounding lack of quality instruction in science and math that it takes me the better part of the first semester just to reignite their innate self confidence. By the end of the year, they are completely different students than when they arrived; achieving at levels far beyond their peers on state exams. Despite this, for most, their beliefs - forged long before they get to me by the aforementioned early experiences - about STEM careers and their abilities within them have lead them to focus on other career paths. Though there are always some that leave my room each year having been redirected onto a STEM path, they are certainly the exception. The best way to change this is to reach young kids with STEM experiences that their parents simply can not provide. Throughout my career, despite the usual conservative meme of the shiftless and uncaring minority welfare kings and queens, I have found very few of my parents that don't want, and try their very best to provide, great things for their child. Unfortunately, the well documented struggles in their lives prevent them from intervening to the extent needed to break such a vicious cycle as working poverty. It's up to us, as a society, to step in and provide that assistance; just as every other 1st world country does.
392
Starting with No Child Left Behind with high stakes mandated standardized tests in Reading and Math the schools narrowed the curriculum so there would be time for test prep and more test prep. As a result young children got very little science education in elementary school.
Standardized test should be reduced to one per year. Test prep should be prohibited and all schools should be required to teach all subject areas starting with Pre-K!
Standardized test should be reduced to one per year. Test prep should be prohibited and all schools should be required to teach all subject areas starting with Pre-K!
1
In our library on Saturday I saw a grandfather/uncle patiently reviewing advanced middle school math with his grandson/nephew. The were Sikh. The time, energy and effort the Asian community puts into its children is amazing.
Our state certainly does not put the money into education that supports that sort of learning. Families make the difference.
Our state certainly does not put the money into education that supports that sort of learning. Families make the difference.
3
One piece of this puzzle is the negative feedback loop we are in. Most elementary school teachers are women; few women have a solid background in STEM fields; therefore, few students have female role models who value and stress the maths and sciences in the early school years. And on it goes.
3
I think that something has been missed in the statistics. In many STEM graduate fields, the majority of the students are foreign. The reasons for this don't affect the analysis. The column quotes ~3% as the percentage of advanced degrees for blacks versus 11% of total students. However, if 60% of the students are foreign, then the correct calculation of the percentage of black American students is 0.4 x 0.11 = 4.4%, not 11%. The disparity might be substantially explained by the dominance of foreign students (primarily from Asia) in these fields, and maybe that's the question that we should focus on.
9
This needs to be nurtured and groomed early. My daughter is a mechanical engineer and wanted to do it since seventh grade. I never really learned how she decided but from then on her teachers encourages her and helped her in her goal.
Reverse to 1962. I took an aptitude test given to all students and it said I should be an engineer. I was just as interested and as able in math and science as she was. No one ever encouraged me. In fact there was very little career counseling if at all. By a fluke I went to a degree Nusing program and then became a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist, a choice I am forever greatful for. But maybe I could have been in. sTEM field with a little school encouragement.
It is a new time but maybe not in the schools.
Reverse to 1962. I took an aptitude test given to all students and it said I should be an engineer. I was just as interested and as able in math and science as she was. No one ever encouraged me. In fact there was very little career counseling if at all. By a fluke I went to a degree Nusing program and then became a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist, a choice I am forever greatful for. But maybe I could have been in. sTEM field with a little school encouragement.
It is a new time but maybe not in the schools.
21
I suspect the underlying problem is that many, if not most, black kids are getting substandard primary education in basic quantitative and analytic skills, and that they are playing catch-up for the remainder of their education.
The USA Today report (analysis seems like a stretch to describe a USA Today story) doesn't consider the quality of the schools or the students. No doubt it's tougher from someone with an associate's degree in computer science from a community college to get a job than a graduate of MIT. That in itself doesn't mean that the industry is biased in it's hiring. Of course doesn't prove the absence of bias either, but after a 40 year career in the tech sector I have found that most employers are working very hard to encourage diversity.
The roots of this problem are quite deep, and I am convinced that focussing on the STEM occupations is a distraction from both the real problems and their solutions.
The USA Today report (analysis seems like a stretch to describe a USA Today story) doesn't consider the quality of the schools or the students. No doubt it's tougher from someone with an associate's degree in computer science from a community college to get a job than a graduate of MIT. That in itself doesn't mean that the industry is biased in it's hiring. Of course doesn't prove the absence of bias either, but after a 40 year career in the tech sector I have found that most employers are working very hard to encourage diversity.
The roots of this problem are quite deep, and I am convinced that focussing on the STEM occupations is a distraction from both the real problems and their solutions.
18
Charles, you write about science with a special interest in a group called "African American" which according to the US Census Bureau is a "race".
I suggest you read the final chapter of Kenneth Prewitt's "What Is Your Race?" in which he states that the first step he recommends - as former US Census Bureau Director - be taken in the next census is the complete abandonment of race-ethnicity questions.
Instead he recommends that the United States move into the 21st century and classify its people using the data collected in the American Community Survey.
This will force researchers to focus on real data, real variables, to see the extent to which a future in science is determined by the economic status of the parents, the availability of first-rate schooling from the beginning, the educational level of the parents and on and on.
You might do your own thought experiment by considering these factors as applied to President Barack Obama. Racism is forever, of that I am sure. But Barack Obama, self-described as black, is almost certainly who he is because of a whole set of favorable factors that if more widely available might very slowly change America, even in science. You, too, might experiment with Prewitt-type thinking.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
I suggest you read the final chapter of Kenneth Prewitt's "What Is Your Race?" in which he states that the first step he recommends - as former US Census Bureau Director - be taken in the next census is the complete abandonment of race-ethnicity questions.
Instead he recommends that the United States move into the 21st century and classify its people using the data collected in the American Community Survey.
This will force researchers to focus on real data, real variables, to see the extent to which a future in science is determined by the economic status of the parents, the availability of first-rate schooling from the beginning, the educational level of the parents and on and on.
You might do your own thought experiment by considering these factors as applied to President Barack Obama. Racism is forever, of that I am sure. But Barack Obama, self-described as black, is almost certainly who he is because of a whole set of favorable factors that if more widely available might very slowly change America, even in science. You, too, might experiment with Prewitt-type thinking.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
5
You sound angry...so, even if you had a point, your apparent anger at Charles Blow has obfuscated whatever point you intended to make. "You can catch more bees with honey than with vinegar."
6
With all else remaining the same, especially racial animus, how exactly does a label-less America work for people of color? How does an America that still refuses to acknowledge its past sins or stop committing its current ones all the while removing the very things that have helped some but not all people of color make great strides, suddenly go label-free? Are you saying racism will disappear when the census labels do?
8
@ mayelum in Paris, France. I am not angry, of course, but have been writing to Charles Blow for the past 2 years to suggest to him that it would be worthwhile reading two important books, "Fatal Invention" (author black, not African American) and "What Is Your Race?"
The point is in principle very simple. Researchers in other countries do not use "race" as a variable but rather use SES data. I know this to be true in Sweden and I think it may be true in France.
To make this point is not easy in NYT context. See, for example, Rima Regas reply to me. (I communicate with her about this). Dorothy Roberts' book Fatal Invention illustrates the puzzle Rima refers to. Roberts wants to do away with race as a means of classification but wants to in some way keep our (US) history in mind in dealing with the sorry situation for all too many blacks in America.
My basic view is that the goal should be to, for example, provide universal health care where access to that care is not strongly affected by skin color as it is affected in the US.
Thanks for your reply.
The point is in principle very simple. Researchers in other countries do not use "race" as a variable but rather use SES data. I know this to be true in Sweden and I think it may be true in France.
To make this point is not easy in NYT context. See, for example, Rima Regas reply to me. (I communicate with her about this). Dorothy Roberts' book Fatal Invention illustrates the puzzle Rima refers to. Roberts wants to do away with race as a means of classification but wants to in some way keep our (US) history in mind in dealing with the sorry situation for all too many blacks in America.
My basic view is that the goal should be to, for example, provide universal health care where access to that care is not strongly affected by skin color as it is affected in the US.
Thanks for your reply.
1
Segregation can be externally imposed or it can be self-imposed. When African-Americans are denied access to higher education because of their race, most of us agree that is wrong. When African-American choose to eat at the same table without whites, it is self-imposed, and most of us agree that is their right.
Is there any evidence that the absence of African-Americans from STEM professions is externally imposed? And if not, why do you present this as a problem?
Is there any evidence that the absence of African-Americans from STEM professions is externally imposed? And if not, why do you present this as a problem?
42
It is not only not "imposed", the very idea is a total falsehood.
My husband is an engineer. He has worked for two of the very largest Fortune 100 high tech corporations in the US. They aggressively and pro-actively SEARCH FOR AND HIRE minorities and women. They give PREFERENCE to hiring minorities and women, passing over qualified white male applicants. This is not some hidden thing. It is openly stated HR policy.
College aggressively seek out and accept minorities and women into Engineering programs, even when they have lower grades and SAT scores than white male applicants.
This is not new, and it's been going on for at least 30 years. It is amazing that so many people are ignorant of this, but then Mr. Blow and most posters here almost certainly work in NON-STEM jobs -- in creative fields like publishing or writing, or in public union fields such as teaching. Maybe a few doctors or lawyers. But the number of STEM folks must be vanishingly small or they would know this theory (segregation STEM) is total hooey.
My husband is an engineer. He has worked for two of the very largest Fortune 100 high tech corporations in the US. They aggressively and pro-actively SEARCH FOR AND HIRE minorities and women. They give PREFERENCE to hiring minorities and women, passing over qualified white male applicants. This is not some hidden thing. It is openly stated HR policy.
College aggressively seek out and accept minorities and women into Engineering programs, even when they have lower grades and SAT scores than white male applicants.
This is not new, and it's been going on for at least 30 years. It is amazing that so many people are ignorant of this, but then Mr. Blow and most posters here almost certainly work in NON-STEM jobs -- in creative fields like publishing or writing, or in public union fields such as teaching. Maybe a few doctors or lawyers. But the number of STEM folks must be vanishingly small or they would know this theory (segregation STEM) is total hooey.
5
Charles column is not intended to blame anyone. He is simply positing the thought that is if a number of minorities are NOT joining in the STEM party, we should recognize it and hold hands to try to solve the problem. You are looking for blame when none is there.
4
It may not have a bearing on the disparities you focus on in this column, but I have noticed a problem in the high school where I work as regards discussions of STEM careers.
Overwhelmingly, students who show an aptitude for science--any science--know of no careers outside of medicine for which that aptitude is a plus. Nothing wrong with medicine, but its appeal is hardly universal.
Those in STEM careers need to be more available to students in middle school and high school, talking with those students about pathways to careers that are innovative, exciting, and in demand. Then they need to be sure that their company or industry puts hiring practices in place so that demand is met across racial, gender, and ethnicity boundaries.
Overwhelmingly, students who show an aptitude for science--any science--know of no careers outside of medicine for which that aptitude is a plus. Nothing wrong with medicine, but its appeal is hardly universal.
Those in STEM careers need to be more available to students in middle school and high school, talking with those students about pathways to careers that are innovative, exciting, and in demand. Then they need to be sure that their company or industry puts hiring practices in place so that demand is met across racial, gender, and ethnicity boundaries.
30
“Overwhelmingly, students who show an aptitude for science--any science--know of no careers outside of medicine for which that aptitude is a plus."
If this is true, then I despair of the educational system. What kind of high school student doesn’t know that technology and engineering are part of STEM? How can you have an aptitute for science and not know what that means? Maybe these students should get off Facebook and use their computers to do basic research on careers, predicted demand, and educational requirements.
If this is true, then I despair of the educational system. What kind of high school student doesn’t know that technology and engineering are part of STEM? How can you have an aptitute for science and not know what that means? Maybe these students should get off Facebook and use their computers to do basic research on careers, predicted demand, and educational requirements.
5
As a STEM degree holder I say
Biomed Engineering's the way,
In milieu academic
Bias is less endemic,
A chance to put talent in play.
Biomed Engineering's the way,
In milieu academic
Bias is less endemic,
A chance to put talent in play.
27
From my view, science education is a time-honored area of segregation by gender and race. Make it past the educational hurdles, and you still must deal with the hiring situation. It's discouraging to learn here that recent computer-related STEM hiring by technology companies is so dismal for black and Hispanic graduates of top universities. Those universities don't give out STEM degrees just for showing up.
14
And then you must deal with the male dominated workplace. Women techies must always be three times as smart as men. And the hours are often far from family friendly. Scientists and coders are expected to pull all nighties all the time.
The sexism is subtle, but real.
The sexism is subtle, but real.
199
To Margaret Orth: Is the culture of all nighters inherently sexist? How do you figure?
As a physics grad student we had a cot to sleep on when the experiment ran all night. As an employed engineer, we had pizza parties at midnight to finish a tough job. That was all part of the fun! It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's surely not sexist.
And yes, I am female.
As a physics grad student we had a cot to sleep on when the experiment ran all night. As an employed engineer, we had pizza parties at midnight to finish a tough job. That was all part of the fun! It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's surely not sexist.
And yes, I am female.
23
To margaret orth: I think you meant "pull all-nighters", not "pull all nighties". Freudian slip, or typo? ;-)
49
I've dedicated the last decade of my life to educating my child. When I started out, little did I know that I would end up attending college with her in relatively short order. I've been doing just that since 2011.
I've literally been witnessing what the statistics on education point to in real time. Our education system is failing all of our kids, and our children of color even more, by not providing a well-rounded education right from the start, with language and critical thinking at its core. I've seen many a student struggle with reading texts, and writing their essays. I've spoken to many an instructor about the job of teaching a course to students who are not prepared.
While driving to school, just last week, I heard a segment on NPR that even made my daughter stop what she was doing. Apparently, the new wave at a preschool at Cal Tech is to specialize in engineering and to attract girls and children of color. Even the nursery rhymes are about engineering there... The program, if successful, will be a model for others to follow.
I couldn't help but think back to Paul Tough's book about Geoffrey Canada's Harlem Children's Zone and the one fact that guided Canada: a middle class child hears 350,000 words by the age of three. A child of color growing in poverty hears only a fraction.
Before we think of STEM, we need to think of the education we are giving our kids. We also need to stop teaching to a common denominator and teach to the kid. STEM will follow.
I've literally been witnessing what the statistics on education point to in real time. Our education system is failing all of our kids, and our children of color even more, by not providing a well-rounded education right from the start, with language and critical thinking at its core. I've seen many a student struggle with reading texts, and writing their essays. I've spoken to many an instructor about the job of teaching a course to students who are not prepared.
While driving to school, just last week, I heard a segment on NPR that even made my daughter stop what she was doing. Apparently, the new wave at a preschool at Cal Tech is to specialize in engineering and to attract girls and children of color. Even the nursery rhymes are about engineering there... The program, if successful, will be a model for others to follow.
I couldn't help but think back to Paul Tough's book about Geoffrey Canada's Harlem Children's Zone and the one fact that guided Canada: a middle class child hears 350,000 words by the age of three. A child of color growing in poverty hears only a fraction.
Before we think of STEM, we need to think of the education we are giving our kids. We also need to stop teaching to a common denominator and teach to the kid. STEM will follow.
72
Paul Tough, who writes for the Times, wrote one of my favorite books to date. Here is the review:
"Still, when it comes to an introduction to the debate about poverty and parenting in urban America, you could hardly do better than Tough’s book. The children of the uneducated and impoverished too often bear a gloomy inheritance, their futures set in stone from an early age. Within Canada’s 97 blocks, Tough finds a different kind of legacy — one shaped by parents who have learned to pay attention to their children’s developmental needs. With a support network unlike anything else in America, the children of Harlem can envision a future so many others expect as a matter of course."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/books/review/Perlstein-t.html
A WSJ piece I read caught my eye:
"Four in 10 U.S. college students graduate without the complex reasoning skills to manage white-collar work, according to the results of a test of nearly 32,000 students."
http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/01/on-dougbelkin-test-finds-college-gradua...
Engineering in preschool education?
http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/01/engineering-in-preschool-education/
"Still, when it comes to an introduction to the debate about poverty and parenting in urban America, you could hardly do better than Tough’s book. The children of the uneducated and impoverished too often bear a gloomy inheritance, their futures set in stone from an early age. Within Canada’s 97 blocks, Tough finds a different kind of legacy — one shaped by parents who have learned to pay attention to their children’s developmental needs. With a support network unlike anything else in America, the children of Harlem can envision a future so many others expect as a matter of course."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/books/review/Perlstein-t.html
A WSJ piece I read caught my eye:
"Four in 10 U.S. college students graduate without the complex reasoning skills to manage white-collar work, according to the results of a test of nearly 32,000 students."
http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/01/on-dougbelkin-test-finds-college-gradua...
Engineering in preschool education?
http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/01/engineering-in-preschool-education/
3
Good stuff, Paul. I hope Charles reads these comments.
2
"We also need to stop teaching to a common denominator and teach to the kid. STEM will follow."
Exactly. My daughter in high school was not much interested in science. She loved art. In college, she discovered there was a place in computer science for art, of color, shape, font, and more. Now she is graduating with a science degree, doing what always fascinated her.
We do best to help them grow, and guide them some within limits as open as is safe. Let them find it, as they find themselves. We don't know it all, and can't predict it all. They must be helped to live their own talents and loves.
Exactly. My daughter in high school was not much interested in science. She loved art. In college, she discovered there was a place in computer science for art, of color, shape, font, and more. Now she is graduating with a science degree, doing what always fascinated her.
We do best to help them grow, and guide them some within limits as open as is safe. Let them find it, as they find themselves. We don't know it all, and can't predict it all. They must be helped to live their own talents and loves.
6