College students are not jaded enough to be drinking hard liquor. Hard liquor is for after graduation, when your student loans come due and you still can't get a job with your BA in history, and a minor in French.
5
Vital to the issue, and utterly lacking in the article, is a measure or estimate of how many entering students come to Dartmouth with experience or a potentially strong interest in hard liquor. If 20 students are "driven underground" by prohibition, that is a completely different situation than 2000 students seeking ways to illicitly imbibe the >15% booze.
4
Personal conduct and personal responsibility rests within each person. Men of all ages must respect women. Women of all ages must understand they are responsible for their safety.
In the late 70's I attended a Dartmouth Winter Carnival. I have never seen so many drunk people in one place ever. I was walking from one frat to another. A drunk co-ed fell down. I helped her stand. She fell again. I asked her friends to take her home. My point: A co-ed falling down drunk obviously can become a target for a guy who may rape a woman.
Responsible personal conduct must take place when drinking occurs which gets tricky. Any person who drinks has made choices they regretted the next day or later in their life. How do we help our children learn to drink responsibly? By learning to drink at home. I was allowed to drink at home before I went to college. I do the same with my boys.
I have openly explained to my boys how one of my fraternity brothers lives with the fact that his drinking and driving killed his fraternity brother. Sorry after the fact does not change this terrible outcome he lives with every day. I believe it is critical that we as parents choose to be vulnerable and very honest with our children. Explain how we would choose differently, explain how we made mistakes. I believe it is critical that our children feel able to ask questions, to talk to their parents about what is going on in their lives with alcohol, pot, sex, whatever...
In the late 70's I attended a Dartmouth Winter Carnival. I have never seen so many drunk people in one place ever. I was walking from one frat to another. A drunk co-ed fell down. I helped her stand. She fell again. I asked her friends to take her home. My point: A co-ed falling down drunk obviously can become a target for a guy who may rape a woman.
Responsible personal conduct must take place when drinking occurs which gets tricky. Any person who drinks has made choices they regretted the next day or later in their life. How do we help our children learn to drink responsibly? By learning to drink at home. I was allowed to drink at home before I went to college. I do the same with my boys.
I have openly explained to my boys how one of my fraternity brothers lives with the fact that his drinking and driving killed his fraternity brother. Sorry after the fact does not change this terrible outcome he lives with every day. I believe it is critical that we as parents choose to be vulnerable and very honest with our children. Explain how we would choose differently, explain how we made mistakes. I believe it is critical that our children feel able to ask questions, to talk to their parents about what is going on in their lives with alcohol, pot, sex, whatever...
5
I'm a Williams College graduate. I visited Dartmouth several times while at Williams. (This was in the 1970s.) The atmosphere was unbelievable: in contrast to relatively sober Williams, Dartmouth was figuratively drenched in alcohol. Williams had gotten rid of its fraternities some time before I enrolled, and maybe that made a difference. I thought Dartmouth was unpleasant and wondered why it was so competitive to be accepted to, and why anyone would want to teach there.
6
Months before joining one of the better behaved Dartmouth fraternities in the late 70’s, I began drinking prodigiously. It was new (to me), free, incredibly fun - and legal. As an athlete, arriving drunk at morning practice was not uncommon. Pledge activities, conducted in broad daylight, and my own antics (of drunken vandalism, for which I remain regretful and unpunished), would today be grounds for expulsion and arrest. In later years, as an adviser to my fraternity, I wrestled with the legal, moral and philosophical insanity of “managing” illegal, yet rampant, underage drinking. Remembering my history, I had nightmares about which, and how many, bullets were dodged each weekend.
My take: alcohol is a problem, but not THE problem. It is an accelerant for preexisting conditions. No amount of alcohol would induce someone respectful of the opposite sex to take advantage of another. Dartmouth’s alcohol policy will harvest low-hanging fruit - and push excesses deeper underground. To bright, well-heeled students, rules are merely challenges. Consistent and unyielding behavioral enforcement, however difficult in the face of a predictable onslaught of expensive lawyers claiming their student-client is being railroaded (with sotto voce implications of endowment impact), is likely the single long term strategic opportunity available to institutions like Dartmouth.
But the real work needs to start long before incoming students ever fill out their applications.
My take: alcohol is a problem, but not THE problem. It is an accelerant for preexisting conditions. No amount of alcohol would induce someone respectful of the opposite sex to take advantage of another. Dartmouth’s alcohol policy will harvest low-hanging fruit - and push excesses deeper underground. To bright, well-heeled students, rules are merely challenges. Consistent and unyielding behavioral enforcement, however difficult in the face of a predictable onslaught of expensive lawyers claiming their student-client is being railroaded (with sotto voce implications of endowment impact), is likely the single long term strategic opportunity available to institutions like Dartmouth.
But the real work needs to start long before incoming students ever fill out their applications.
11
Excellent comment! You should have gotten The Times's gold shield for your insightful remarks.
4
I am pretty sure that students smart enough to get into Dartmouth will figure out how to get the liquor they want. The problem is the culture not the liquor.
8
Don't fool yourselves, I grew up in New England in the 70's and attended a small catholic college. It was so tame there I had to escape to the so-called "elite" ivies on several weekends because they were the biggest party schools in the northeast. Once a student is admitted to those schools the academics are less challenging relative to peer institutions making it virtually impossible to flunk out, thereby fostering bored students who turned the ivies into four year party schools. I have to laugh when those in the northeast and their media act as though we're still in pre 1940's America and attempt to pass the ivies off as elite and academically superior to state universities, many which have overtaken the ivies academically (see Academic Rankings of Word Universities, the only rankings that focus strictly on academic factors).
5
In the outside world, there are words for communities where people get wasted indoors and out, where getting drunk puts a person in harm's way, where no one ever hears or sees anything bad, where hanging out on the street drinking is just what you do on weekends, where alcohol related crime is a constant, where ambulances and police cars are commonplace. In those communities people may want to move but can't afford to get out, and the word isn't "campus". At college communities people can't wait to spend a fortune to get in, stay in, and brag about it later. Economics 101.
1
Lower the drinking age back to eighteen so that young people will be able to drink in supervised settings, rather than what we have now, which is that drinking is forced 'underground'.
The US seems to have learned nothing from Prohibition or the failed War On Drugs and parents seem to have learned nothing about the dangers of raising their children in a protective bubble.
The US seems to have learned nothing from Prohibition or the failed War On Drugs and parents seem to have learned nothing about the dangers of raising their children in a protective bubble.
7
Dear Commenter Skanik: What do you propose that draftees into national service do for two years? Do volunteer work currently done by people who are paid so we can fire them? Do you have any idea how much it costs to feed and shelter millions of annual draftees? What will you order then to do to justify these very large costs? Which workers do you want to see terminated and replaced by an army of forced volunteers?
1
When my children were in college, both attended schools that were labeled, "Dry Campuses." No liquor at all was tolerated. Of course, it was brought in "secretly," but, if caught, severe consequences were brought to bear. Even off campus, my son was caught underage in a bar, drinking with older friends. He was given a "drink ticket," by local police, which cost him $350.00, & 30 hours of community service. It also cost him his job as a Resident Assistant in one of the campus dorms. A hard lesson learned.
4
Dartmouth's ban on "Hard Liquor" is deceiving due to the fact that they aren't banning wine, beer, or cider. Thus, effectively, Dartmouth is simply shifting drinking culture on campus away from the consumption of hard liquor. In response, kids will almost inevitably consume large amounts of beer and cider most likely. I have to question if this move in its fruition mitigates sexual assault cases or "risky behavior" in general. In sum, the ban simply sounds like an unhealthy and poorly executed resolution to the issues at hand.
1
Why don't we just assign every 18 year old Two Years of National Service.
It would help the nation, help the immature youth of today to grow up
and hopefully produce more serious students in college.
Also, require that students attend every class, have classes on Monday/Friday
and give short quizzes.
Some students only have classes on Tu/Wed/Thu and so binge drink the
rest of the week.
It would help the nation, help the immature youth of today to grow up
and hopefully produce more serious students in college.
Also, require that students attend every class, have classes on Monday/Friday
and give short quizzes.
Some students only have classes on Tu/Wed/Thu and so binge drink the
rest of the week.
5
Why not just enforce the law?
It is illegal to drink any alcohol until you are 21.
Bartenders have gone to jail for serving minors. Why not school administrators who fail to enforce what are state-mandated laws?
It is illegal to drink any alcohol until you are 21.
Bartenders have gone to jail for serving minors. Why not school administrators who fail to enforce what are state-mandated laws?
7
This is a band aid on a chronic and serious problem. Upon admission to any college every single student must sign a contract that states that he/she will never engage in any conduct that brings scandal to the school or constitutes a crime.
Schools must *man up* and adopt a single code of conduct that applies to every single student no matter his/her gender, wealth, ethnic, cultural, social, racial, religious, etc. background.
The code of conduct must be strict as it regards social interactions and dishonesty in academic matters. Student who violate it are expelled.
Athletics must be demoted from its exalted place and academics restored as the prime focus of an education. Team sports have a place certainly in promoting health and certain positive social and character habits.
And, boys must learn that girls are dangerous. I advise boys not to be alone with any girl without witnesses who are totally sober and have spotless reputations for honesty and integrity. Most young men lack the sophistication and social knowledge to interact with girls without risking criminal charges.
The concept that a college is for any purpose other than intellectual education must be reinforced.
Schools must *man up* and adopt a single code of conduct that applies to every single student no matter his/her gender, wealth, ethnic, cultural, social, racial, religious, etc. background.
The code of conduct must be strict as it regards social interactions and dishonesty in academic matters. Student who violate it are expelled.
Athletics must be demoted from its exalted place and academics restored as the prime focus of an education. Team sports have a place certainly in promoting health and certain positive social and character habits.
And, boys must learn that girls are dangerous. I advise boys not to be alone with any girl without witnesses who are totally sober and have spotless reputations for honesty and integrity. Most young men lack the sophistication and social knowledge to interact with girls without risking criminal charges.
The concept that a college is for any purpose other than intellectual education must be reinforced.
1
Colleges were a lot more interesting when there were other, better choices for altering one's mood or perspective. I remember great books, ideas, and music, great friends and conversations, wonderful love affairs. Maybe I'm being nostalgic, and maybe my memory is distorted. Maybe we behaved worse and got reported and disciplined less. I'm all for more emphasis on moderation, safety, health, and respect.
5
There is a gathering room in one of Princeton's spiritual meeting centers that has a plaque in recognition of two alumni who pioneered alcohol-free reunions and related activities.
We need to view these changes in attitude and alcohol use at Dartmouth and other universities as part of the entire education process and a start towards lifelong learning for this and other issues of society and abuse.
We need to view these changes in attitude and alcohol use at Dartmouth and other universities as part of the entire education process and a start towards lifelong learning for this and other issues of society and abuse.
3
I already feel bad for the incoming freshman who will be relegated to Antarctica (The River Cluster) for their entire Dartmouth life. Invest in heavy long underwear for the winter's trudge to the dining hall and classes.
3
I love Dartmouth and I had a great experience there. It would have been even better had the kinds of reforms proposed by President Hanlon already been in place. There is a big difference between students drunkenly discussing Shakespeare v. Marlowe, LBJ v. Nixon, or Dartmouth v. Yale and students passing out drunk. Anything that tips the balance toward the former (without taking the fun out of life) is good.
President Hanlon's emphasis on building alternative social structures is perhaps even more important. Dartmouth's relatively small size and its excellent faculty already serve as an important counterweight to its "Animal House" tendancies. These new proposals seem well tailored to build further on the school's strengths.
President Hanlon's emphasis on building alternative social structures is perhaps even more important. Dartmouth's relatively small size and its excellent faculty already serve as an important counterweight to its "Animal House" tendancies. These new proposals seem well tailored to build further on the school's strengths.
6
Why just hard liquor? I'm all for a ban of all alcohol on college campuses across the country as it does a whole lot more harm than good.
2
This is the exact opposite solution that is needed. The drinking age should be lowered to 18 everywhere. The prohibition of alcohol under 21 is what is responsible for the binge culture. Rather than something to be enjoyed with friends, in moderation at the pub it has become the forbidden fruit, something that must be consumed in secret. Much of Europe has a lower drinking age and while there are still problems, the 18-20 crowd does not have the same kind of issues.
7
Hidden behind all the important and necessary words about drinking and sexual assault was also a few words about grade inflation. This too has the "potential" to produce profound change at what is certainly one of the great academic institutions in the US. Good for Dartmouth!
2
Campuses should have treated hard alcohol as controlled substances much like drugs. That should send a signal of these young men and women should be learning, that hard drinking and drug use are not acceptable behavior, particularly in their formative years in college.
1
I love my bourbon, my rye and sometimes scotch and once in awhile a good matini. I only drink good stuff, never any rot gut. I pulled my first actual pay check when I was 14, never missed a payday from that time till I retired and that includes 3 years in the Suck, for all you Jarheads out there. I earned, like others, the right to drink the great spirits. When you pimply faced mommy boys earn a buck, then have a taste of the good stuff. Until then, stick with beer.
3
I lived at a fraternity house during my college years and it was one of the best experiences of my life, both socially and academically. Attacking the Greek system is an overreaction by PC driven nanny staters. Young adults need freedom and the ability to grow up to be responsible for themselves, not kept in the womb forever.
1
At Williams College, my alma mater, the Board of Trustees voted to banish the greek fraternities citing the lack of academic resonance. Mark Hopkins led the charge.
Coincidentally, women first graduated with the Class of 1969.
Progressive? You bet. That's why I attended there after being recruited heavily in soccer by the Ivies where the trips to campus my senior year in HS involved frats which was a big turn off.
Coincidentally, women first graduated with the Class of 1969.
Progressive? You bet. That's why I attended there after being recruited heavily in soccer by the Ivies where the trips to campus my senior year in HS involved frats which was a big turn off.
7
I am all for it, I would like to see my school, Class of '74, show some leadership on this issue. Not only because of campus sexual assaults, but too, the physical harm that binge drinking causes young people.
Good luck Big Green.
Good luck Big Green.
1
One possibility is an honor code. Brigham Young University is one of the referenced religious schools that bans alcohol and drugs, and even tobacco. But rather than just telling students that they can't have it, they have them sign an honor code agreement that they won't partake if they want to attend the university.
I'm sure this has a legal purpose should the university decide to expel a student based on such an infraction, but it also has the effect of bringing a person's integrity into the equation. If a student then decides to break the rules (and it happens, to be sure), they are then letting themselves down as well. It's not 100% effective, but I would wager it makes a sizable difference.
I'm sure this has a legal purpose should the university decide to expel a student based on such an infraction, but it also has the effect of bringing a person's integrity into the equation. If a student then decides to break the rules (and it happens, to be sure), they are then letting themselves down as well. It's not 100% effective, but I would wager it makes a sizable difference.
1
Everyone looking for a key element in American culture that underlies misbehavior by students and others is invited to read the most recommended comment related to Nicholas Kristof's column "How Do We Increase Empathy?" in the January 29 Times. The comment was submitted by Peace of NY, NY.
2
This is one of three actions I have seen from Dartmouth that impress me (as a former math professor who taught at a so-called "elite" university) that they act in the interest of what students need, not what "consumers" want. (As David Riesman pointed out, student "wants" aren't always student "needs".)
Here are the other two.
Dartmouth showed that AP courses are highly suspect. (They are. I know. I taught bright kids who did great in them, but don't really "know" calculus. As Caltech puts it, they are "woefully inadequate" for understanding- and you don't need to be Caltech caliber to need to understand. Believe me. I was an engineer before being transformed.) Details on how AP really works can be found in the "AP" category on my blog, including Dartmouth's actions.
Unlike Columbia University and Washington U. in St Louis, Dartmouth is appropriately restrictive in admitting students into their 3/2 engineering program. (Details can be found on my blog.)
Hats off to Dartmouth's President and Board. Keep up the good work.
Here are the other two.
Dartmouth showed that AP courses are highly suspect. (They are. I know. I taught bright kids who did great in them, but don't really "know" calculus. As Caltech puts it, they are "woefully inadequate" for understanding- and you don't need to be Caltech caliber to need to understand. Believe me. I was an engineer before being transformed.) Details on how AP really works can be found in the "AP" category on my blog, including Dartmouth's actions.
Unlike Columbia University and Washington U. in St Louis, Dartmouth is appropriately restrictive in admitting students into their 3/2 engineering program. (Details can be found on my blog.)
Hats off to Dartmouth's President and Board. Keep up the good work.
10
Schools have little to no interest in making sure their students follow the law when it comes to underage drinking. They only stir themselves when drunk students cause enough trouble that the media pays attention. Then it's the same old, same old "we care about our students safety, we don't tolerate law breaking" yadda, yadda, yadda. When the media storm blows over, it's back to "normal" and the hard drinking continues. It's about money. Enrollment would plummet in schools known as party schools, money-generating sports programs would wither followed by shrinking alumni donations. From my point of view college administrators willingly turn a blind eye. Now they may have to face up to their lack of diligence and enforce the state law.
7
I think a better approach would be to agressively promote more social activities that don't include drinking. Also addressing the root causes of drinking such as peer pressure, the challenge of being away from family and others would help more. All banning does is drive drinking underground and it gets ignored by many.
3
From running countless fraternity parties at a university with, at the time, a fairly substantial, recognized drinking problem, I can tell you that a ban will make things worse, not better. It's important to recognize that hard alcohol is treated like a currency at campus events. Banning it will make it an even more valuable currency, and drive it's consumption to places that can't be made safe.
The solution is training fraternities properly - every one of our parties had two on-call spotters with walkie-talkies. Universities should mandate this, and give them special training to spot for problems and respond to emergencies. This, combined with extensive reporting and sensible feedback for problems and near-misses as they arise would do a world of good for the relationship between campus admin. and social life. I've been astounded at how few frat events are professionally and safely run, but they can and should be exactly that.
The solution is training fraternities properly - every one of our parties had two on-call spotters with walkie-talkies. Universities should mandate this, and give them special training to spot for problems and respond to emergencies. This, combined with extensive reporting and sensible feedback for problems and near-misses as they arise would do a world of good for the relationship between campus admin. and social life. I've been astounded at how few frat events are professionally and safely run, but they can and should be exactly that.
8
Back in the 60's my UW dormitory floor would host beer parties in the lobby recreation room at the start and mid-term, supervised by residence hall assistants (grad students getting free rent for such duty). Hard stuff was generally not in the dorms because so few could afford it. The Greek system was in rapid decline at the time, though those still operating did have a reputation for the same antics described in this article. There really is no supervisory tie to Administration in the Greek system. Can't imagine how prohibition will be enforced.
1
Serving alcohol is not the problem, consuming it in excess. Students routinely chug alcohol prior to parties to get drunk before walking in. Until Universities associate penalties with the behavior of a student, they will not make a dent in the problem. It is illegal to buy or consume alcohol as a minor. Universities should not be looking the other way.
4
Alcohol is a sedative drug. It sedates the brain, beginning with those areas that control our "higher" functions: judgement, foresight, compassion; that which makes us "human".
Alcohol, in surprisingly small doses, then compromises motor function (physical coordination) and in larger doses, autonomous functions including the ability to breathe. That, of course, can be fatal although it is likely that a person sufficiently intoxicated will be killed by trauma resulting from an accident or by aspirating one's own vomit and choking to death before breathing is so impaired as to kill. Still, it happens.
At a .08 blood alcohol level (the limit for DUI in most states) many drinkers barely show outward signs of intoxication but have already lost about 25% of night vision, 30% of hearing, 50% of peripheral vision, a fair amount of judgement and foresight, and about 0.2 seconds of reaction time. And, they have the keys to a car in hand.
The brain does not fully mature until about age 25. Our higher functions: judgement, foresight, compassion, etc. are the last to mature. Alcohol, in dulling these functions, can turn a relatively responsible 21 year old person into an emotional twelve year old very quickly. The effect of, say, three or four drinks, as evidenced by this article, is much more pronounced on a young person than on an older person. This is partly due to experience but mostly due to the physical maturation of the brain.
Drinking is dangerous for young people. Period!
Alcohol, in surprisingly small doses, then compromises motor function (physical coordination) and in larger doses, autonomous functions including the ability to breathe. That, of course, can be fatal although it is likely that a person sufficiently intoxicated will be killed by trauma resulting from an accident or by aspirating one's own vomit and choking to death before breathing is so impaired as to kill. Still, it happens.
At a .08 blood alcohol level (the limit for DUI in most states) many drinkers barely show outward signs of intoxication but have already lost about 25% of night vision, 30% of hearing, 50% of peripheral vision, a fair amount of judgement and foresight, and about 0.2 seconds of reaction time. And, they have the keys to a car in hand.
The brain does not fully mature until about age 25. Our higher functions: judgement, foresight, compassion, etc. are the last to mature. Alcohol, in dulling these functions, can turn a relatively responsible 21 year old person into an emotional twelve year old very quickly. The effect of, say, three or four drinks, as evidenced by this article, is much more pronounced on a young person than on an older person. This is partly due to experience but mostly due to the physical maturation of the brain.
Drinking is dangerous for young people. Period!
7
The president of Dartmouth should be applauded for taking steps to change the culture at Dartmouth which needs changing. Many commenters here are focusing on the hard alcohol ban, but that is one part of a strategy that includes a stern warning to the Greek system to change its ways. That is a big step for Dartmouth which has seen an outcry in the past from alumni whenever any talk of pushing back on fraternities/sororities has been broached. A ban on hard alcohol reduces the potent "punch" prevalent at frat parties and that is known to harbor date rape drugs. It's a start. Of course college kids will drink, but don't think that this will not make a positive change--slowly over time.
4
Students's unions need that money. Once we let capitalism makes the rule, it's not easy to go backward.
I think we've already seen that prohibition doesn't work
2
As a current college student, I can just say that this won't work. It is already illegal for most of these students to drink hard liquor. If that doesn't stop them, why should school rules make any difference? People will just pregame in their rooms and end up blacking out rather than drinking publicly and with their friends. This will increase the attraction of doing stupid things such as Vodka tampons and four locos. In the end, this rule will contribute to an environment where the goal is to get drunk as quickly and surreptitiously possible.
I do like the residential hall programs, though. It seems like they're copying Bowdoin more than anything else.
I do like the residential hall programs, though. It seems like they're copying Bowdoin more than anything else.
4
Middlebury got rid of frats and went to the residential system.
3
It's interesting to see the differences in liberals and conservatives. Liberals believe that the government can solve all problems, including morals! Conservatives believe in personal responsibility. (Isn't that what colleges SHOULD be teaching?). With that in mind, you have to be 21 to drink in most states, so it is legal to drink at college....hard liquor or beer. Banning kegs at UVA and hard liquor at Dartmouth will create responsibility for ones actions? I believe not. I believe that you should punish those that do not drink responsibly, INCLUDING the women that put themselves in jeopardy at parties and therefore create an atmosphere of adult drinking. After 3 children in college, myself, and my wife, I am somewhat an expert on college partying.
3
This is a brilliant idea. Something radical must be tried, and hard liquor is a quick drunk with enormous bad consequences in far too many instances. Good luck, Dartmouth. I think it will help.
2
I don't get it. Alcohol is already banned - until age 21, a prohibition that encompasses the vast majority of undergraduates. Fraternity hazing is directed at Freshman pledges who shouldn't be drinking anyway, with alcohol served by upperclassmen who, if they are 21 or over, shouldn't be serving those not of drinking age.
So what's a ban by Dartmouth going to do that existing laws weren't able to do. Banning alcohol NOW gives implies that Dartmouth administrators accepted it BEFORE. Clearly, it knew about and tolerated the drinking for years. So, what will the repercussions be?
So what's a ban by Dartmouth going to do that existing laws weren't able to do. Banning alcohol NOW gives implies that Dartmouth administrators accepted it BEFORE. Clearly, it knew about and tolerated the drinking for years. So, what will the repercussions be?
10
Even though it would be extremely difficult to monitor---I applaud Dartmouth's stand. The next step,which few big universities would be willing to take, is outlaw the Greek system. There is so much talk today about the need to have a college education and so little talk about what that education should look like. Unfortunately, recent studies of what is going on in college documents very little studying and an awful lot of partying. University administrations need to regain control of their mission, instead of bargaining it away on booze, tailgating, and weekend (weeklong) frat parties.
5
This is a problem that still needs to be placed at the feet of Parents - simple.
It is a problem within the States - in other countries - far less problems, due in part to the fact kids are taught how to drink from as early as puberty.
Teach your kids what and how to drink when they are growing up.
It is a problem within the States - in other countries - far less problems, due in part to the fact kids are taught how to drink from as early as puberty.
Teach your kids what and how to drink when they are growing up.
7
Probably a good move for Dartmouth in particular because of the greek houses are on campus. Students will likely be reluctant to give up partying at the greek houses for the opportunity to drink liquor off campus. Also, from what I know, there's very few options off campus for drinking.
Good move, in my opinion.
Good move, in my opinion.
2
There should be more supervision.
Try treating them as adults. Stop serving beer after the 7th inning.
Try treating them as adults. Stop serving beer after the 7th inning.
1
This ban is one more thing that will drive alcohol use (and abuse) underground. The raising of the legal drinking age has already led to pre-party alcohol consumption. As a message, the ban is perhaps helpful. But it won't improve the situation and more likely will make it worse.
Rebellion is virtually normal and desirable during the college-age years. More bans invite and incite more dangerous rebellion.
Learning to drink responsibly isn't a likely outcome of demonizing drinking generally and driving drinking into secrecy.
Why, too, have colleges become responsible for what parenting has failed to do in instilling sensible values?
Rebellion is virtually normal and desirable during the college-age years. More bans invite and incite more dangerous rebellion.
Learning to drink responsibly isn't a likely outcome of demonizing drinking generally and driving drinking into secrecy.
Why, too, have colleges become responsible for what parenting has failed to do in instilling sensible values?
3
Strange. Got two degrees at Dartmouth. We drank kegs of beer at the frat houses. Our booze imbibing was mostly out of town- white river junction in vermont- driving home drunk. there will be more of this under the new rules.
1
Alcohol fueled outrageous behavior has been a part of the campus life for at least the last 50 years. Half step measures and ad hoc committees apparently have done little to change the culture. Take the big step and be a true leader. Phase in over a 4 year period a total ban of alcohol on campus. Existing students grandfathered in (with restrictions), prospective students sign with their parents a legal contract not to drink. Violations result in probations and eventual separation with loss of tuition. Make the campus and culture that you want, but stop with the constant ad hoc committees and hand wringing.
3
Your recommendation sounds like the Volstead Act, college edition. How did the first iteration work out?
1
Another of those utterly ridiculous feel good measure so much beloved of Americans. Think prohibition or three strikes. I doubt it will substantially reduce the consumption of martinis or G and T's among faculty or students.
1
Many countries have cultures of young adults drinking copiously and boisterously. Very often, this is a part of college social life. But it is only in America that the drinking is accompanied by the peculiarity of uncouth, decadent and self- degrading behaviors commonplace and familiar to anyone who knows or has experienced fraternity party life in US colleges.
What is even more peculiar that their elders hold this dysfunctional behavior to be an essential, even cathartic part of the passage from adolescence to adulthood.
The problem is not hard liquor. It is the misconception that a measure of depravity is a necessary part of life in young adulthood and college. In other words it is a social pathology that can only be removed by appropriate parental direction before college years and in the college years, by college administrators showing low tolerance for behavior that would be unacceptable amongst people well into adulthood.
What is even more peculiar that their elders hold this dysfunctional behavior to be an essential, even cathartic part of the passage from adolescence to adulthood.
The problem is not hard liquor. It is the misconception that a measure of depravity is a necessary part of life in young adulthood and college. In other words it is a social pathology that can only be removed by appropriate parental direction before college years and in the college years, by college administrators showing low tolerance for behavior that would be unacceptable amongst people well into adulthood.
10
Right on, Alan. It is not just the booze, but the culture that promotes booze to excess and forgives, if not promotes, any and all "uncouth, decadent and self-degrading behaviors" that go with it. Hopefully Dartmouth's focus on personal responsibility will be more important and effective than any ban on hard alcohol. If the parents haven't instilled ethical behavior and personal responsibility in their children prior to college, it will be an uphill battle for any college to turn that around, but I applaud any and all their efforts at trying.
1
Good for Dartmouth. And I wonder whether faculty are also swearing off hard liquor?
4
Once upon a time there was a tavern
Where we used to raise a glass or two
Remember how we laughed away the hours
And think of all the great things we would do
Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes those were the days
Gene Raskin, ex Columbia U. Architecture Prof., written c 1960.
(Were we THAT innocent, or are people these days really as self indulgent, self important and irresponsible as the seem?)
Where we used to raise a glass or two
Remember how we laughed away the hours
And think of all the great things we would do
Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes those were the days
Gene Raskin, ex Columbia U. Architecture Prof., written c 1960.
(Were we THAT innocent, or are people these days really as self indulgent, self important and irresponsible as the seem?)
3
Social spaces independent of greek houses is an outstanding step forward. College men and women are the most fun, social, and energetic, people around. They do not need alcohol to have a good time. Most of us are not allowed to drink on the job, why would 4-year residential college students be an exception?
3
"They do not need alcohol to have a good time."
Oh really? And college students are on the job on the job 24/7/365? Poor little mites.
Oh really? And college students are on the job on the job 24/7/365? Poor little mites.
Dartmouth's plan is partially realistic- hard liquor is bad news. But I worry about bans pushing binge drinking further underground, which will only exacerbate the problem. Back when the drinking age was 18, students congregated in campus rathskellers and nearby pubs. All businesses, there were always adults and sober people around to maintain order. Certainly we drank, often to excess, but I don't remember binge drinking being common, and I have no recollection of any classmate winding up in the hospital or worse. Dorm and off-campus house parties were common, but not the sole means of socializing. Even there, students didn't try to hide the booze out of any fear of expulsion. Should we lower the drinking age (and raise the driving age)? What happens in Europe and Canada, where drinking ages are lower than ours?
7
Intoxicating liquors and beer were banned from University of Tennessee campus. However there is an apartment building on the campus which is not UT property and there was a bar in the lobby.
3
I came out as a lesbian in college. I have seen my share of druken hookups between women. No one ever assaulted anyone to my knowledge.
Why are men and women different? Why can't you drink and still respect one another?
Why are men and women different? Why can't you drink and still respect one another?
1
Has anyone mentioned that alcohol addiction can lead to narcotics addiction?
About 30 to 40 years ago AA may have 80% to 20% in favor of alcohol addiction. Membership was about the same in many chapters - 80% men, 20% women.
The past decade some chapters are 80% narcotic addicts and 50% women.
About 30 to 40 years ago AA may have 80% to 20% in favor of alcohol addiction. Membership was about the same in many chapters - 80% men, 20% women.
The past decade some chapters are 80% narcotic addicts and 50% women.
1
The problems being grappled with here are but a reflection of the same chronic dysfunctions prevalent in our culture at large. This is not to denigrate or trivialize the much needed effort being made here. But as long as the trillion dollar alcohol industry seeks to exploit it, the trillion dollar entertainment industry seeks to glorify it, and the parental culture from which these kids come is as alcohol saturated and infected with the same destructive sexist attitudes as the "educational" venues these kids are dropped into, this effort really is like trying to bale out Cape Cod Bay during a Nor'Easter.
The challenge is further complicated by the anti-intellectual currents which permeate the culture and undermine educational efforts at all levels. Lets face it, a lot of the individuals populating this problem are just not really there to get an education. They are there to Inherit; be cool; have a good time; get by somehow; and, in many cases, "Crash and Burn." Many of the rest, originally there for all the Right Reasons, are overwhelmed by the social pressure, glamor, and addictiveness of it all, for which they are ill prepared, and fall from the sky like Icarus.
Nothing short of a cultural Sea Change of priorities, flowing from the Society at Large, can change all that. But Crony Capitalism, War on Inconvenient Facts, and Sense of Entitlement rule the society; the Super Bowl trumps Climate Change; and honest attempts to overcome the hypocrisy of it all continue to fail.
The challenge is further complicated by the anti-intellectual currents which permeate the culture and undermine educational efforts at all levels. Lets face it, a lot of the individuals populating this problem are just not really there to get an education. They are there to Inherit; be cool; have a good time; get by somehow; and, in many cases, "Crash and Burn." Many of the rest, originally there for all the Right Reasons, are overwhelmed by the social pressure, glamor, and addictiveness of it all, for which they are ill prepared, and fall from the sky like Icarus.
Nothing short of a cultural Sea Change of priorities, flowing from the Society at Large, can change all that. But Crony Capitalism, War on Inconvenient Facts, and Sense of Entitlement rule the society; the Super Bowl trumps Climate Change; and honest attempts to overcome the hypocrisy of it all continue to fail.
7
Well stated. I very much agree with your comments.
1
It’s all about education. Too many colleges simply tell their students that “underage drinking is illegal, don’t do it.” That’s not being realistic. The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of college students do drink alcohol, and most of them have no idea how to do so responsibly. Colleges should do more to emphasize responsible drinking - understanding your limit, knowing when to cut yourself off, recognizing the danger of alcohol poisoning – and discourage the binge drinking Dartmouth and other institutions are known for.
1
That would be an interesting discussion for the college to engage in. Let us teach you to responsibly break the law.
1
"Dartmouth has had a string of embarrassments involving binge drinking..."?
What seems to be going on at Dartmouth and many other colleges is WAY beyond "embarrassments"! Embarrassment is a fresher mooning or someone in the administration being outed for swearing--we're talking seriously anti-social behavior and, in many cases, criminal sex abuse!
One of the real problems is that Dartmouth--like most other colleges--does indeed regard all this as an embarrassment to its vaunted brand! Omygod, admissions stats may fall in "Best Colleges," some prospies might cavil at the $250,000 'fat envelope' letter, or (worst of all!) some alums may fail to give big bucks in "annual giving"! All THAT might begin to put a dent in the "arms race" capital construction projects on-campus or the "race to the top" in terms of the most bloated college/university bureaucracy! What college doesn't need a few more 6- or 7-figure administrators, right?
So Dartmouth comes up with a "Moving Forward" plan, replete with more social engineering, more five-year plans, and of course more committees and bureaucracy!
Frats, binge drinking, and anti-social antics have been an issue at Dartmouth for many many years. And since, all but a clear minority of students can't drink 'hard liqueur' legally, what good with this PR window dressing do? Open tap keggers, beer slides, beer pong, and mystery 'punch' will still provide all that's needed! After all, boys will be boys, right?
What seems to be going on at Dartmouth and many other colleges is WAY beyond "embarrassments"! Embarrassment is a fresher mooning or someone in the administration being outed for swearing--we're talking seriously anti-social behavior and, in many cases, criminal sex abuse!
One of the real problems is that Dartmouth--like most other colleges--does indeed regard all this as an embarrassment to its vaunted brand! Omygod, admissions stats may fall in "Best Colleges," some prospies might cavil at the $250,000 'fat envelope' letter, or (worst of all!) some alums may fail to give big bucks in "annual giving"! All THAT might begin to put a dent in the "arms race" capital construction projects on-campus or the "race to the top" in terms of the most bloated college/university bureaucracy! What college doesn't need a few more 6- or 7-figure administrators, right?
So Dartmouth comes up with a "Moving Forward" plan, replete with more social engineering, more five-year plans, and of course more committees and bureaucracy!
Frats, binge drinking, and anti-social antics have been an issue at Dartmouth for many many years. And since, all but a clear minority of students can't drink 'hard liqueur' legally, what good with this PR window dressing do? Open tap keggers, beer slides, beer pong, and mystery 'punch' will still provide all that's needed! After all, boys will be boys, right?
6
More freedom of choice taken away.
I'm a little more worried about how the sexual assault victim's freedom of choice is taken away.
4
You're concerned about the choice to drink liquor when these people pay money to have so many other choices taken away?
1
Perhaps the bigger issue is the role of institutions of higher education in instilling and inculcating responsibility in their students. The United States' lack of responsibility is a major threat to our culture, to our civilization.
Will these storied and "respected" colleges and universities take this duty seriously?
Will these storied and "respected" colleges and universities take this duty seriously?
1
You can only hide the candy from the kids for so long. And, when they get it, they'll go crazy.
Kids make mistakes. I think most people are guilty of drinking one too many at one point in time. Most of us learn from our mistakes. Isn't it better for them to make these mistakes young, learn responsibility now, so that when they enter their true adult world they've 'gotten all of that out of their system."
Kids make mistakes. I think most people are guilty of drinking one too many at one point in time. Most of us learn from our mistakes. Isn't it better for them to make these mistakes young, learn responsibility now, so that when they enter their true adult world they've 'gotten all of that out of their system."
with all due respect I dont know if you have been following the news, these "mistakes" are contributing to campuses where sexual assaults are all too frequent. there is not getting that out of your system so easily.
3
I agree with other comments regarding the relative uselessness of a ban. The keg ban when I was on campus resulted in a transition to much more rapidly distributable cans of beer in endless supply. I imagine the hard liquor ban will have similarly unpredictable results.
The problem is not necessarily the culture of drinking, but the evolution of a youth culture increasingly devoid of a sense of personal responsibility and respect for others. I do a lot of teaching at a New England medical school. The sense of entitlement that many (certainly not all) of these students exhibit is shocking, and was certainly not present when I was in medical school under two decades ago. The problems seen on so many campuses is not the booze--that and worse things have been there for centuries. The problem is the culture, which is driven by the leaders of any particular peer group.
Efforts should be focused on cultivating the leaders on campus, perhaps most importantly those in the Greek system. I learned more from my fraternity experience than I did from being a pre-med. While I sadly remember little of my classroom lessons, what I learned from my frat experience I continue to use on a daily basis.
Unfortunately, many students arriving on campus these days seem to be of the entitled breed, who will never take the personal responsibility to help enable the culture change that is necessary.
The problem exists before these kids set a foot on campus.
The problem is not necessarily the culture of drinking, but the evolution of a youth culture increasingly devoid of a sense of personal responsibility and respect for others. I do a lot of teaching at a New England medical school. The sense of entitlement that many (certainly not all) of these students exhibit is shocking, and was certainly not present when I was in medical school under two decades ago. The problems seen on so many campuses is not the booze--that and worse things have been there for centuries. The problem is the culture, which is driven by the leaders of any particular peer group.
Efforts should be focused on cultivating the leaders on campus, perhaps most importantly those in the Greek system. I learned more from my fraternity experience than I did from being a pre-med. While I sadly remember little of my classroom lessons, what I learned from my frat experience I continue to use on a daily basis.
Unfortunately, many students arriving on campus these days seem to be of the entitled breed, who will never take the personal responsibility to help enable the culture change that is necessary.
The problem exists before these kids set a foot on campus.
27
What a ridiculous half-measure. Close the frats.
11
Ty,
Interesting take on the situation. My question for you though is would that make a difference? Do you honestly think that a social construct is responsible for bad behavior? Or do you think, as I do, that the culture really would not change with a move like this?
If my fraternity was closed tomorrow, that wouldn't change a thing about my social life - I would throw parties off campus instead of in our chapter house (and, to be honest, they might be wilder and less secure because it's not on campus). For a situation like the entire American educational system finds itself in now, there is no easy fix like "close the frats," because the issue derives from a social construct. I urge you to think through the student response to a move like this, as no action by the school exists in a vacuum. You take away fraternities, we still party. You ban alcohol, we still party. You expel a kid, we still party. Managing how the parties function should be of much higher order than the alternatives.
Interesting take on the situation. My question for you though is would that make a difference? Do you honestly think that a social construct is responsible for bad behavior? Or do you think, as I do, that the culture really would not change with a move like this?
If my fraternity was closed tomorrow, that wouldn't change a thing about my social life - I would throw parties off campus instead of in our chapter house (and, to be honest, they might be wilder and less secure because it's not on campus). For a situation like the entire American educational system finds itself in now, there is no easy fix like "close the frats," because the issue derives from a social construct. I urge you to think through the student response to a move like this, as no action by the school exists in a vacuum. You take away fraternities, we still party. You ban alcohol, we still party. You expel a kid, we still party. Managing how the parties function should be of much higher order than the alternatives.
2
What Dartmouth needs is a chapter of E Clampus Vitus.
1
The difference is, with the frats closed, maybe kids will have to be more creative in their drinking. But the absence of open taps in the basement will most definitely impinge on the ability of students to commit mayhem. Sure, kids will continue to drink. The occasional beer or shot is not the problem. But making it hard will, well, make it hard. And the raging parties will be replaced by less abandoned drinking. When liquor is less readily available, fewer people will abuse it, because most people won't want to. Closing the frats, rather than outlawing alcohol for people who are probably drinking illegally anyway, will absolutely solve the problem. And something more constructive will replace them.
2
At Dartmouth years ago there was literally no place to go after 9 pm except to a fraternity. So if you didn't make it past the nasty popularity contest of "rush", you could just sit in a snowbank at minus 30 degrees. And if you got into a fraternity, you could enjoy a bunch of drunks raging around, ripping their clothes off and being bullies. (I joined fraternity and quickly dropped out...which is when I discovered that out of the fraternity environment, most of the "brothers" were actually really nice guys.)
There was a predominantly anti-intellectual attitude: get good grades, but don't show anyone that you needed to work for them. There was a wonderful faculty, a bunch of outstanding men (sorely missing the normality of women in their college experience). A brilliant group of people, a gorgeous geographical location...and a broken system.
Personally, I'd start by dumping the fraternities. A change in attitude about getting drunk and throwing up on each other might in part follow all by itself. I assume that things are better than they were in my day, but I'd always thought that a new value system would be in place by now. Maybe some folks find raging around drunk to be fun, but my feeling is that most students (teenagers and just beyond) are acting this way due to pressures from the environment. Good for Dr. Hanlon for understanding how crucial it is to address this directly.
There was a predominantly anti-intellectual attitude: get good grades, but don't show anyone that you needed to work for them. There was a wonderful faculty, a bunch of outstanding men (sorely missing the normality of women in their college experience). A brilliant group of people, a gorgeous geographical location...and a broken system.
Personally, I'd start by dumping the fraternities. A change in attitude about getting drunk and throwing up on each other might in part follow all by itself. I assume that things are better than they were in my day, but I'd always thought that a new value system would be in place by now. Maybe some folks find raging around drunk to be fun, but my feeling is that most students (teenagers and just beyond) are acting this way due to pressures from the environment. Good for Dr. Hanlon for understanding how crucial it is to address this directly.
11
I was there during that time and I had a different experience. My undergrad life was filled with creative (and proudly intellectual) inspiration and plenty to do outside of frats (which I may have stepped into a handful of times if that, outside of the co-ed places where the alternative people hung out).
There were many outstanding visiting scholars and creative folks, such a rich political activism energy (during the divestment years), and I don't think I was "drunk" once. Now granted I was part of the crowd that tended to live off campus (for those who know Hanover off-campus is just as close as campus), but my point is I had an inspiring academic experience in a place of beauty-- and a social life that never revolved around drinking at these troublesome frat parties.
I was there recently and spoke with a female undergrad in the arts who was enjoying her time and the resources the school offers -- and did not participate in the frats either. So to each their own if that kind of activity interests them... but 1) people thinking everyone at Dartmouth is just getting drunk is so off base - there is astounding research and resources there and 2) the frat mentality contributes to sexual assaults/denigration of women (entitlement is hard to escape), and the College is better off without them - or with curtailing what goes on there, if some men still feel they need that for some kind of bonding. I think a great step would be to make frats co-ed by decree.
There were many outstanding visiting scholars and creative folks, such a rich political activism energy (during the divestment years), and I don't think I was "drunk" once. Now granted I was part of the crowd that tended to live off campus (for those who know Hanover off-campus is just as close as campus), but my point is I had an inspiring academic experience in a place of beauty-- and a social life that never revolved around drinking at these troublesome frat parties.
I was there recently and spoke with a female undergrad in the arts who was enjoying her time and the resources the school offers -- and did not participate in the frats either. So to each their own if that kind of activity interests them... but 1) people thinking everyone at Dartmouth is just getting drunk is so off base - there is astounding research and resources there and 2) the frat mentality contributes to sexual assaults/denigration of women (entitlement is hard to escape), and the College is better off without them - or with curtailing what goes on there, if some men still feel they need that for some kind of bonding. I think a great step would be to make frats co-ed by decree.
6
You were there in the early 1960's? What co-ed places did you find? As a scholarship student, I was only able to afford bringing in a date a couple of times a year. The first time, a drunk came into my room screaming obscenities, and we would up in the hallway in a push and shove, with a group of dorm members screaming for me to punch him out. I saw knives pulled twice (but not used). Half a dozen guys made obscene comments to women I was with and physically threatened me. Someone chopped the telephone off the dorm wall, also the balustrades on the banisters...naked and with an ax. That's some of it, and no need to enter a fraternity at all.
I took a wonderful fall term abroad, and the whole group of 15 got along great: only two returned to Dartmouth for winter term.
I could have loved Dartmouth, and I envy you your experience. You got off campus to find it: smart move.
And of course I shared, to the degree that I was capable, the wonderful intellectual experience that you did. (Though I wasn't proud to see the front row of the Great Issues course populated by student wearing jackets and ties, according to the rules...but no shirts: sorry invited speaker.) I'm grateful to Dartmouth, but the possibilities where hugely diminished. Do you remember Dave Weber's wonderful letter asking why we treated each other this way?
I want to support Dartmouth still. It can be a welcoming place, and I support Dr Hanlon fully in recognizing a deep need for fundamental change.
I took a wonderful fall term abroad, and the whole group of 15 got along great: only two returned to Dartmouth for winter term.
I could have loved Dartmouth, and I envy you your experience. You got off campus to find it: smart move.
And of course I shared, to the degree that I was capable, the wonderful intellectual experience that you did. (Though I wasn't proud to see the front row of the Great Issues course populated by student wearing jackets and ties, according to the rules...but no shirts: sorry invited speaker.) I'm grateful to Dartmouth, but the possibilities where hugely diminished. Do you remember Dave Weber's wonderful letter asking why we treated each other this way?
I want to support Dartmouth still. It can be a welcoming place, and I support Dr Hanlon fully in recognizing a deep need for fundamental change.
3
Most of these kids are under the legal age of drinking. Why is the college saying, in any official way, that *any* alcohol is OK for them? These schools need to look at the root of the problem and ask the really hard questions, such as, "Why is getting drunk deemed such an important part of college life?".
2
It has been demoralizing to watch this apparently once-great school flounder for 15 years. They are still building their co-educational identity. Still, today. If you can believe that. The school isn't yet built. It is little but an idea. I wish president Hanlon the best of luck. It is a very selective school, but what it does with those selectee kids strikes me as disorganized and alum-terrified. The way to create a welcoming community is not to subdivide it into "exclusive" frats and sororities, or for that matter, secret societies. Without a welcoming community that treats admission as the sole hurdle of "acceptance," without that, you have a school in decline, and kids working at cross-purposes competing against each another. The school needs to end exclusive (admission or pledge-based) organizations. The community is too small to afford so many divisions within itself.
7
But students aren't even allowed to join frats until their second year at Dartmouth, and pushing back the pledge date is a trend that's been increasing, not decreasing, over the past 15 years.
Dartmouth seems to have been becoming more welcoming every year for the past 25 years. I don't think frats have anything to do with the perceived decline.
Dartmouth seems to have been becoming more welcoming every year for the past 25 years. I don't think frats have anything to do with the perceived decline.
I am a member on a prominent fraternity at Northwestern University, which is extremely similar to Dartmouth in several ways, most pertinent to this article in the fact that our campus is 40% greek (and growing). Evanston has historically been one of the strictest towns on alcohol in the country, and Northwestern has followed suit.
There is no alcohol of any variety allowed in any greek house on our campus regardless of your age. And guess what? It doesn't work. I lived in my fraternity house and I don't think there was ever a point where there was not alcohol in every room in the house. Say all you want about how it's illegal, immoral, against the university rules, and so on - the fact remains that policy making does nothing to curtail alcohol consumption.
Does alcohol play a role in student misconduct? Sure! Of course it does. You know what else does? Cultural norms. In fact, they probably have an order of magnitude greater impact than alcohol. There has not been a single instance of sexual misconduct in my fraternity in living memory. That's not because we don't drink to excess - we do, and we do frequently - it's because no one in the house would ever even think to rape or otherwise disrespect women. Once that is established, we can drink copiously without the slightest worry that a brother might do something stupid like that. Command and control won't work here - the university needs to look at this from the perspective of the troublemakers themselves.
There is no alcohol of any variety allowed in any greek house on our campus regardless of your age. And guess what? It doesn't work. I lived in my fraternity house and I don't think there was ever a point where there was not alcohol in every room in the house. Say all you want about how it's illegal, immoral, against the university rules, and so on - the fact remains that policy making does nothing to curtail alcohol consumption.
Does alcohol play a role in student misconduct? Sure! Of course it does. You know what else does? Cultural norms. In fact, they probably have an order of magnitude greater impact than alcohol. There has not been a single instance of sexual misconduct in my fraternity in living memory. That's not because we don't drink to excess - we do, and we do frequently - it's because no one in the house would ever even think to rape or otherwise disrespect women. Once that is established, we can drink copiously without the slightest worry that a brother might do something stupid like that. Command and control won't work here - the university needs to look at this from the perspective of the troublemakers themselves.
25
FratStar: I'm glad there's no sexual misconduct at your fraternity. And while you "drink copiously without the slightest worry that a brother would do something stupid like that," please remember 19-year-old Matthew Sunshine, who on June 9 2008 began drinking inside his Northwestern University campus dormitory, Foster House, after a final exam.
Matthew's father, Jeff Sunshine, remembers his son as "a nerdy, really nice kid," but admits he was likely influenced by peer pressure.
Sunshine shared what he's managed to learn about the last night of his son's life.
"He engaged in a drinking contest with a student," Sunshine said. "It was on the fourth floor in a third student's room. Within the course of an hour he had drunk about 17 shots of vodka.
Northwestern eventually reached a $2 million settlement with Sunshine's family. It's an agreement that also requires the university to change and improve the way it combats alcohol use, and abuse, on campus.
Sunshine explained that the settlement requires such provisions "because the administrators at the university permitted and therefore promoted that kind of behavior."
The agreement mandates Northwestern pay $150,000 to fund new academic research into binge drinking, and to convene two conferences on the subject at a cost of $50,000. It also requires the school to evaluate the rules students must follow in an alcohol-related emergency.
FratStat, I hope you and your brothers know those rules.
Matthew's father, Jeff Sunshine, remembers his son as "a nerdy, really nice kid," but admits he was likely influenced by peer pressure.
Sunshine shared what he's managed to learn about the last night of his son's life.
"He engaged in a drinking contest with a student," Sunshine said. "It was on the fourth floor in a third student's room. Within the course of an hour he had drunk about 17 shots of vodka.
Northwestern eventually reached a $2 million settlement with Sunshine's family. It's an agreement that also requires the university to change and improve the way it combats alcohol use, and abuse, on campus.
Sunshine explained that the settlement requires such provisions "because the administrators at the university permitted and therefore promoted that kind of behavior."
The agreement mandates Northwestern pay $150,000 to fund new academic research into binge drinking, and to convene two conferences on the subject at a cost of $50,000. It also requires the school to evaluate the rules students must follow in an alcohol-related emergency.
FratStat, I hope you and your brothers know those rules.
7
Civil liability trumps civility education.
2
I still don't understand Dartmouth President Hanlon's approach to alcohol consumption on campus. Isn't any alcohol consumption by those under the age of 21 -- the age of the majority of Dartmouth's undergraduate students -- illegal in New Hampshire? I don't think the law exempts beer and wine consumption.
When Dartmouth provides, or permits, beer and wine consumption by it's underage students on college property or at college functions, is it in any way legally liable for any resulting actions by its inebriated students?
When there is a traffic fatality by a drunk Dartmouth student, when there is yet another female student raped by drunk college students, will President Hanlon find himself in the docket awaiting trial? To send an unmistakable message to his fellow college administrators in the Ivy League and elsewhere across the country that this behavior is totally and absolutely unacceptable, I sure hope so!
When Dartmouth provides, or permits, beer and wine consumption by it's underage students on college property or at college functions, is it in any way legally liable for any resulting actions by its inebriated students?
When there is a traffic fatality by a drunk Dartmouth student, when there is yet another female student raped by drunk college students, will President Hanlon find himself in the docket awaiting trial? To send an unmistakable message to his fellow college administrators in the Ivy League and elsewhere across the country that this behavior is totally and absolutely unacceptable, I sure hope so!
2
Let me try to respond. Yes, it's illegal. But the local police force exists to protect and serve the kids. Typically we think of police wielding power. In this case, the alumni of Dartmouth and similar schools wield the power that runs Boston, New York, New Hampshire, Hanover, and various other places you could mention. Washington's another.
2
Surprise surprise, not all college students obey the law against underage drinking all of the time. At any college in the country.
We shunt 18 years old to drink furtively in closed micro social climates that have a mean age of 19 and we are surprised that Lord of the Flies drunkenness and debauchery results? Why does this not predominate in Europe? Because in Europe young adults do not hide; they socialize and drink in the embrace of civilizational norms that attend open environments with adults of older generations within eyeshot. America: behold a mess of your own making.
17
Banning hard liquor is a well-intended act, but people can become wasted on beer and wine too...Will this ban really help?
1
I graduated Dartmouth in 1985; it provided me with a great experience, not all of which I took advantage of. As I arrived, I needed a more directive, healthier culture in which to mature and develop. I recently wrote an email to Hanlon, like so many others, and while I got an automated, impersonal response, his speech today makes me imagine that he read my email. The frats, 30 years ago, were sites of excess where late-adolescence failed to mature, and alcohol abuse was a primary problem. When my friends from Yale or Harvard visited, I was a bit embarrassed by the predominance of fraternity, alcohol-focussed culture and the denigration - the best single descriptive word - that it caused. Fraternities need to be supervised by adults, or abolished. That was the case then; it is now, as things have somehow gotten worse over the years. I took friends to the hospital for alcohol poisoning, and that never should have happened. As Hanlon's speech intimates, Dartmouth's potential and its ability to help its students reach their potential can only emerge if the fraternity and alcohol culture are finally addressed.
45
I graduated from Dartmouth 20 years before you, and you express exactly what I feel. Naively, I hoped that the change from all male would make a bigger difference than it possibly could have.
Kids for the most part aren't secure enough to change the environment they're thrown into: instead they adapt to fit in. It's up to adults to affect changes to the institution, and my thanks to Dr. Hanlon for understanding this.
The article focuses on hard alcohol, but that's not really what this is about.
Kids for the most part aren't secure enough to change the environment they're thrown into: instead they adapt to fit in. It's up to adults to affect changes to the institution, and my thanks to Dr. Hanlon for understanding this.
The article focuses on hard alcohol, but that's not really what this is about.
2
Hanlon's heart is in the right place. But banning hard liquor is a half-measure which will avail the college nothing. It's time for Dartmouth to grow up and get rid of the frats. The college has agonized over this for half a century but has always stopped short for fear of offending deep-pocketed alumni. So Dartmouth remains saddled with a social life more appropriate to the University of Alabama than the Ivy League. Williams, Amherst and other comparable schools abolished frats, and now flourish as never before. Dartmouth will be just fine once it lances this boil once and for all.
6
I just don't understand why we seem to be continually raising the age at which we Start treating children as adults. Every time I turn around we as a society are excusing someone's bad choices or poor behavior on their young age. I understand that over the years our average life expectancy has greatly increased which would cause some shifts in societal norms. I get not wanting kids to grow up too fast, and even wanting them to have an easier time of it than we might have had. I am just afraid that we are creating a generation of adults who have never actually been allowed to be adults. The news is full of articles about the large number of "adult children" who have returned to the nest. Heck some never leave in the first place! The economy is blamed in most instances. What if its actually society creating the issue?
5
While college is the breeding ground for intellectual dreaming and exploration of the people who will be leading our country into its future there still must be some set rules and regulations along with its encouragement and rewards. Perhaps allow hard alcohol only in their last year.
1
Lowering the drinking age nationally would help. Teenagers could develop a respect for alcohol under the supervision of their parents and in their neighborhood communities and wouldn't undergo such a steep 'learning curve' of how to handle alcohol during their college years. Also by no longer being required to enforce rather arbitrary underage drinking laws, university officials and law enforcement could better focus on the real problem, namely excess drinking.
4
Why not serve wine and beer with meals in the dorms so students learn about responsible drinking. Think of it: Dartmouth graduates would have a rputarion for knowing wine.
2
I have never understood the fascination with "Greek" life. Was not at all interested during my college days...no one in my family was. Now, after these incidents at Dartmouth & other schools my only reaction to Greeks would be to run...the other way.
15
well it's not for everyone. I couldn't imagine college without it. Every campus is different - at mine, men have nearly no possibility of going to large (or, really, even small) parties if you are not in a fraternity. 40% of my school is greek - it is the most social, most attractive, and most raucous 40% of the school (discounting the small percentage of athletes). Again, not for everyone, but definitely for a lot of people.
Before the drinking begins, segregate the living quarters. There should be men's dorms and women's dorms, an underpinning of respect for privacy and an acknowledgement that boundaries are basic. Alcohol simply magnifies what society, a country or a campus, thinks is OK or is not very clear.
3
As a Dartmouth Alumna -- who turned down Harvard just to respond to the posters here who think Dartmouth is somehow not an intellectual bastion, you might want to learn a little more about the school than its "reputation"... but I digress -- yes, the frat culture is a problem because of how pervasive it is. More non-Frat opportunities are long overdue - but there's always been plenty to do besides get drunk. (But these non-frat opportunities have never been "endorsed' full throttle which may affect young, impressionable minds in a good way.) To add: Not every student there is a frat head. Some enjoy the outdoors, the rural setting, the lack of distractions to focus on studies, the access to world-class leaders in their field/ resources/etc and the beauty of the place.
Many alumni have been voicing concerns for years about changes needed there, most of us feel no real change will happen without dismantling the frats, and we recognize there is a large donor base that may not be happy about that. As cautious as I am about these changes, I think they may stop some sexual assault (see the Dartmouth newspaper for more details on bouncers at parties, etc)... and one less sexual assault is a good thing. But to curb all of the problems, that involves massive re-education... and maybe before the men get to Dartmouth. So, in the end, maybe these changes will have an effect because some of those guys who matriculate with "entitlement" etched on their sleeve may choose to go elsewhere.
Many alumni have been voicing concerns for years about changes needed there, most of us feel no real change will happen without dismantling the frats, and we recognize there is a large donor base that may not be happy about that. As cautious as I am about these changes, I think they may stop some sexual assault (see the Dartmouth newspaper for more details on bouncers at parties, etc)... and one less sexual assault is a good thing. But to curb all of the problems, that involves massive re-education... and maybe before the men get to Dartmouth. So, in the end, maybe these changes will have an effect because some of those guys who matriculate with "entitlement" etched on their sleeve may choose to go elsewhere.
14
I hear the Kinks singing: "Oh Demon Alcohol."
My 30-something ivy-league-educated children drink more than my parents from the Mad Men generation.
And while that scares me, I also understand that it's tougher to grow up now.
More people are fighting over fewer dollars and even less resources. Meanwhile, our best escape, nature, is being consumed at an ever-increasing rate.
And like the Weimar Republic, the news just gets worse. The Times told me today that our extraction of oil and gas is spiking earthquakes. Yesterday, it said that the Koch Brothers will spend a billion next election for conservative candidates. And almost every day brings some shockingly unreal statement from Republicans about what they will do when they capture ALL three branches of government.
(Thank you very much New York Times.)
Now if this makes me want to take a drink -- and I hate the stuff -- why wouldn't it affect younger generations even more?
My 30-something ivy-league-educated children drink more than my parents from the Mad Men generation.
And while that scares me, I also understand that it's tougher to grow up now.
More people are fighting over fewer dollars and even less resources. Meanwhile, our best escape, nature, is being consumed at an ever-increasing rate.
And like the Weimar Republic, the news just gets worse. The Times told me today that our extraction of oil and gas is spiking earthquakes. Yesterday, it said that the Koch Brothers will spend a billion next election for conservative candidates. And almost every day brings some shockingly unreal statement from Republicans about what they will do when they capture ALL three branches of government.
(Thank you very much New York Times.)
Now if this makes me want to take a drink -- and I hate the stuff -- why wouldn't it affect younger generations even more?
11
What's the penalty for students being drunk on the campus and vicinity? DUI penalties are enforced. How about instituting penalties for other behaviors while walking under the influence; for starters: TUIs {texting), SUIs {smart-phoning}, VUIs (vomiting), and the more popular FUIs (falling)? Stipulate as "Not Acceptable": being drunk, encouraging another to be drunk, serving a drunk.
I attended Dartmouth in the 1960s and shocked by the "catcher in the rye" attitude , alcoholism, degradation of woman, and crazy road trips to the "groin"(Green Mountain Junior college) as in Animal House. I came from Marin county and spent boyhood summers working on a relative's dairy farm in Chester, VT. I went to ski.
Dartmouth then was singular - all male school, no interstate.
With the "least the old traditions fail" attitude, binge drinking continues not only at Dartmouth but through out the "time out" just out of secondary school collegiate system. All colleges ought to follow Dartmouth regarding use of alcohol in underage students. And who is to invoke punishment, the college or local police? A few days in jail, chain gang? Reality in this virtual world.
Dartmouth then was singular - all male school, no interstate.
With the "least the old traditions fail" attitude, binge drinking continues not only at Dartmouth but through out the "time out" just out of secondary school collegiate system. All colleges ought to follow Dartmouth regarding use of alcohol in underage students. And who is to invoke punishment, the college or local police? A few days in jail, chain gang? Reality in this virtual world.
1
Allow 18 to 21 year olds to drink beer and wine at bars where the owner is responsible for his patrons and students will go there instead of drinking liquor at dorms. When will the US ever learn from prohibition?
7
Young people do stupid and risky things. It's part of being young. Young people on alcohol do stupid, risky, dangerous and illegal things. 37% of rapes are committed under the influence of alcohol. 40% of all violent crimes are done under the influence of alcohol. Young people do not know how to use alcohol so they abuse it, especially with binge drinking. It is high time that colleges and universities faced the issues head on. Good for Dartmouth.
6
The Dartmouth newspaper gives more information that this article contains, and is worth the read. This is a good start but I fear without Frats being dismantled there, there may not be the extent of change needed. But, maybe this will encourage different applicants. Kudos to Dartmouth for stepping up, hoping it makes a difference (with the Frats still in place). http://thedartmouth.com/2015/01/29/hanlon-announces-hard-alcohol-ban-res...
3
Thank you for the link. I think it might work if their annual review of student organizations are rigorous. The criteria for review are on target -- contribution to safety and inclusion on campus. Part of the reform also includes raising the bar for academics.
To clarify for many commenters, banning hard liquor is only one of several changes being proposed . Changing the residential offerings for a large percentage of students, concentrating on building new types of communities for this relatively small school and intensifying education and accountability are most important. There is certainly no harm to banning more concentrated alcohol forms . It is true that de-emphasizing the social influence of Greek life is very important. I believe, in aggregate , these measures will be effective and provide a model for other universities willing to invest to tackle this serious problem.
1
Some people hate the idea of regulations, but we wouldn't need regulations if a critical mass of people/students/young adults didn't behave so irresponsibly.
I went to college a long time ago, and I taught college students for almost 4 decades. I saw a big change in the general acceptance of certain unhealthy student attitudes. It used to be your reputation was ruined if you drank irresponsibly and got drunk--made a fool of yourself basically.
Now some very vocal students brag about how drunk they were, how they (young men and women) engaged in irresponsible sex, how they or their friends ended up in the emergency room because of alcohol or drug abuse, how they were so "out of it" they had no idea what they did at the drunken party. Some of my friends have told their college age offspring not to join a fraternity because some of these organizations are sick and even lethal. One friend said she was so proud of her son when he quit a fraternity as a pledge because he was so disgusted by what he saw. How many young people are willing to be this independent?
I also had friends in college and from high school who became party animals in college; some got kicked out of college; all became serious alcoholics during their adult lives.
Yes, if colleges ban hard liquor and fraternities from campus, students will find other places to get drunk and put themselves at risk--maybe even brag about their exploits. But colleges cannot be the center of and condone such behavior
I went to college a long time ago, and I taught college students for almost 4 decades. I saw a big change in the general acceptance of certain unhealthy student attitudes. It used to be your reputation was ruined if you drank irresponsibly and got drunk--made a fool of yourself basically.
Now some very vocal students brag about how drunk they were, how they (young men and women) engaged in irresponsible sex, how they or their friends ended up in the emergency room because of alcohol or drug abuse, how they were so "out of it" they had no idea what they did at the drunken party. Some of my friends have told their college age offspring not to join a fraternity because some of these organizations are sick and even lethal. One friend said she was so proud of her son when he quit a fraternity as a pledge because he was so disgusted by what he saw. How many young people are willing to be this independent?
I also had friends in college and from high school who became party animals in college; some got kicked out of college; all became serious alcoholics during their adult lives.
Yes, if colleges ban hard liquor and fraternities from campus, students will find other places to get drunk and put themselves at risk--maybe even brag about their exploits. But colleges cannot be the center of and condone such behavior
5
My observation at Dartmouth was the kids who were most reckless were the ones who had never had a drink in high school because of overbearing parents and impossible pressures to succeed. So they overcompensated. I went to Dartmouth to study. The so-called partying at Dartmouth was actually more fun in dorms than it was in frats. I urge the school to be tolerant of dorm parties which are on neutral ground. The neutrality of the ground (non-frat) is the key to the social empowerment of the kids involved. The frats need to go.
1
This decree is the same as gun control. It is not going to curb the consumption of alcohol, but it sends the message that the institution considers hard liquor of large detriment and little value. The question is how much does the student culture actually align with stated institutional values. Given recent patterns of 4 year colleges acting for many students as networking get-together's rather than centers for rigorous academic training, my guess is that binge drinking will only subside in Dartmouth venues where it is least common already.
Extreme kudos to Dr Hanlon, the very first Dartmouth president to come along and finally Do The Right Thing. I just hope he doesn't fall victim to a purge staged by very wealthy, influential alumni (think of the current sultans of Goldman Sachs, among others) who were dedicated 'Greeks' and basically insist that anyone who'd work for their companies must have gone through that 'system' as a means of showing dedication to the big shots' true gods of Conformity, Consumption and Coercion. Interestingly enough, Dartmouth is one of only five Ivy League schools (out of the eight) to even have fraternities and sororities. (The others are Brown, Yale, Cornell and Pennsylvania, with Cornell - geographically rather isolated, as is Dartmouth - the only one where 'Greek' organisations also dominate social life to a substantial extent.) So let's wish Dr Hanlon luck and longevity. He'll need the former to accomplish the latter.
9
Real simple: put undercover cops around campus. Ticket kids for underage drinking and public intoxication. Have campus police monitor frat parties. Its the only thing that will get them to listen.
1
You have a pool of teenage undercover cops to do the job? The cultural problems on any campus are anything but simple!
1
This doesn't solve anything. Prohibition worked sooo well in the 1920s. Why not try a failed policy again? And guess what Dartmouth -- there's things called BARS around your campus. Students will go get blitzed there, then carry their drunk selves back to campus.
Drinking alcohol safely requires experience and responsibility. Ideally, this is done at home. Of course, as we see, it isn't being done. Should we be surprised that kids overindulge when they've had no experience with alcohol for 18+ years and are then let loose? We don't allow teenage drivers to have full driving privileges from day 1 for a reason -- to build up experience.
Alcohol was always available in my household when I was growing up. The rule was if you ordered it, you drank it...all of it. I had my first hard liquor drink (a Manhattan) around age 3...and found it disgusting and didn't like how I felt afterwards. Between it always being available (and not a forbidden fruit) and my initial bad experience, I've never been much of a drinker. I'll have a glass of wine with dinner and may have a rum & coke or martini a few times a year, but most often at business dinners or when I'm out of town and not driving.
Sadly, our laws today make the way I was raised illegal. Florida law says up to 60 days in jail for a teen just holding a beer, 60 days for the adult who gave it to them. That doesn't include the child neglect and other charges they'd no doubt throw at the parents.
Drinking alcohol safely requires experience and responsibility. Ideally, this is done at home. Of course, as we see, it isn't being done. Should we be surprised that kids overindulge when they've had no experience with alcohol for 18+ years and are then let loose? We don't allow teenage drivers to have full driving privileges from day 1 for a reason -- to build up experience.
Alcohol was always available in my household when I was growing up. The rule was if you ordered it, you drank it...all of it. I had my first hard liquor drink (a Manhattan) around age 3...and found it disgusting and didn't like how I felt afterwards. Between it always being available (and not a forbidden fruit) and my initial bad experience, I've never been much of a drinker. I'll have a glass of wine with dinner and may have a rum & coke or martini a few times a year, but most often at business dinners or when I'm out of town and not driving.
Sadly, our laws today make the way I was raised illegal. Florida law says up to 60 days in jail for a teen just holding a beer, 60 days for the adult who gave it to them. That doesn't include the child neglect and other charges they'd no doubt throw at the parents.
4
Why in the world would an underage student, or even a 21-year old, pay inflated prices for liquor in a bar in town when he can drink beer for free, and with a group of classmates of all ages, in a fraternity? These kids may be obnoxious, but they're not fools.
Maybe you didn't read the part about this being a ban on liquor only? It's not prohibition.
Maybe you didn't read the part about this being a ban on liquor only? It's not prohibition.
"we will take the lead in saying `no more."
And how many more times will President Hanlon say, and how many more Dartmouth presidents after him will say, "no more"?
I think the students and the alumni, and their attitude of entitlement, that getting drunk together facilitates "bonding", and that "boys will be boys", and now the "girls" trying to keep up with the boys to prove they're their equals, will endure long after President Scanlon.
It is absurd that a place that claims to be devoted to the highest level of education, research, and moral development lets an entitled, exclusionary greek system dominate campus "social" life.
It's as if these brats and their enabling parents (who probably behaved as they did when they went to the same "elite" institutions) are stranded on an island called "privilege" and the Lord of the Flies is the fraternity party organizer terrorizing all the others into descending to his own level of depravity.
So... how many working single mothers, at near-minimum-wage jobs, driving a 20-year-old Civics to night-school classes at community college, so they can have a better life for their children and themselves have the money, time, or desire, or social pressure to outdo their peers by showing how drunk they can get.
I suppose they're not "the best of the best" and where our future highly compensated "leaders" will come from. Maybe undeserving "takers", the 47%, or even the 99%
And how many more times will President Hanlon say, and how many more Dartmouth presidents after him will say, "no more"?
I think the students and the alumni, and their attitude of entitlement, that getting drunk together facilitates "bonding", and that "boys will be boys", and now the "girls" trying to keep up with the boys to prove they're their equals, will endure long after President Scanlon.
It is absurd that a place that claims to be devoted to the highest level of education, research, and moral development lets an entitled, exclusionary greek system dominate campus "social" life.
It's as if these brats and their enabling parents (who probably behaved as they did when they went to the same "elite" institutions) are stranded on an island called "privilege" and the Lord of the Flies is the fraternity party organizer terrorizing all the others into descending to his own level of depravity.
So... how many working single mothers, at near-minimum-wage jobs, driving a 20-year-old Civics to night-school classes at community college, so they can have a better life for their children and themselves have the money, time, or desire, or social pressure to outdo their peers by showing how drunk they can get.
I suppose they're not "the best of the best" and where our future highly compensated "leaders" will come from. Maybe undeserving "takers", the 47%, or even the 99%
5
Reading through these comments, it seems a lot of people are misunderstanding the proposal. Many are complaining that all alcohol should be banned. Well, of COURSE all alcohol is "officially" banned for MINORS at Dartmouth. What President Hanlon proposes is to ban hard alcohol for the 21+ students, which effectively curbs a legal right of these upperclassmen. So it is actually not a small thing.
Now does that mean that minors don't drink beer, wine and hard alcohol, and will they continue to do so? Absolutely they do. But I, for one, think banning hard alcohol (if it can be enforced) will achieve some good. Relatively new drinkers have NO idea what their limits are, and that is what tends to land them at Dick's house or in other, even more unfortunate situations. For me, the few times I found myself out of control due to alcohol was always following a few shots of hard alcohol, which I vowed never to drink again (and generally have kept that vow). Beer and wine, at least, are consumed more slowly, the alcohol delivered more gradually, and its effects can be felt before things get out of control.
Should more be done? Perhaps. But this is a pretty good start for a place like Dartmouth where drinking is, indeed, part of its work hard, play hard culture. But also note some of the other forceful aspects to Hanlon's initiative - a third party overseer and a promise to revisit the sustainability of the Greek houses if things don't notably improve in three years.
Now does that mean that minors don't drink beer, wine and hard alcohol, and will they continue to do so? Absolutely they do. But I, for one, think banning hard alcohol (if it can be enforced) will achieve some good. Relatively new drinkers have NO idea what their limits are, and that is what tends to land them at Dick's house or in other, even more unfortunate situations. For me, the few times I found myself out of control due to alcohol was always following a few shots of hard alcohol, which I vowed never to drink again (and generally have kept that vow). Beer and wine, at least, are consumed more slowly, the alcohol delivered more gradually, and its effects can be felt before things get out of control.
Should more be done? Perhaps. But this is a pretty good start for a place like Dartmouth where drinking is, indeed, part of its work hard, play hard culture. But also note some of the other forceful aspects to Hanlon's initiative - a third party overseer and a promise to revisit the sustainability of the Greek houses if things don't notably improve in three years.
2
Because prohibition always works out.
2
"Officials said the ban will apply to any liquor that is 15 percent alcohol — barely more than most wine — or more, and will take effect when the spring term begins March 30"
I wonder if that ban extends to faculty liquor cabinets as well? It looks like the faculty "wine and cheese" events are still safe, but hard to force legal age students to comply with that ban if other legal age drinkers (professors) will not be forced to...
I wonder if that ban extends to faculty liquor cabinets as well? It looks like the faculty "wine and cheese" events are still safe, but hard to force legal age students to comply with that ban if other legal age drinkers (professors) will not be forced to...
1
You have to wonder why any self-respecting college would even allow the existence of fraternities and sororities, which encourage condescension, isolationism and xenophobia, and tolerate acts probably banned by the Geneva Convention.
17
It is time to take a look at the advertisements for hard liquor with the same scrutiny that was once used for cigarettes. This is a no-brainer.
1
All college students should be required to sign an agreement that they will follow the code of conduct or risk expulsion. The wording should be precise and list the major areas of problematic behavior seen across most college campuses today, i.e., intoxication, sexual assault (defined precisely as sexual contact of any kind without expressed consent), criminal activity of any kind (theft, harassment, assault, intellectual fraud, etc). Acceptance into a college community should be hinged upon the acceptance by the student of lawful, civil behavior. Entitled students and parents should have their signatures notarized.
2
How exactly will this be enforced? Will there now be periodic random checks in the Greek houses, undercover campus police at parties?
1
Hard Liquor? Soft Liquor?
Is President Hanlon a comedian or what?
So, a soft liquor keg party, where students may be ankle deep in spilled beer (remember those socialization into alcohol abuse parties sponsored by the beer companies?) are acceptable, uplifting the Dartmouth market image?
Is President Hanlon a comedian or what?
So, a soft liquor keg party, where students may be ankle deep in spilled beer (remember those socialization into alcohol abuse parties sponsored by the beer companies?) are acceptable, uplifting the Dartmouth market image?
1
Impulse control is not fully matured in the teen brain.
(http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-still-under-c...
Ie: Controlling when to stop drinking, or when to refuse that first drink at a party where it might be too risky --- is not as fully matured as someone older.
Given that alcohol itself may impair judgement, of course the impact on a younger drinker can be worse.
A few years difference in age between 18 and 21 would matter, as well as the concentration of alcohol ingested with that first drink.
(http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-still-under-c...
Ie: Controlling when to stop drinking, or when to refuse that first drink at a party where it might be too risky --- is not as fully matured as someone older.
Given that alcohol itself may impair judgement, of course the impact on a younger drinker can be worse.
A few years difference in age between 18 and 21 would matter, as well as the concentration of alcohol ingested with that first drink.
4
Are 2 vodka/sodas worse than 7 glasses of wine? Are two vodka/sodas worse than five 14% craft IPA beers (which are now ubiquitous on college campuses)?
Does pointing the finger at a particular product teach these kids the proper life lessons about personal responsibility inside a capitalist marketplace? Do we prefer the kids drive to a local bar to get their hard liquor and then drive back to the dorms? Does "banning" products readily available everywhere else really work?
I doubt it.
Does pointing the finger at a particular product teach these kids the proper life lessons about personal responsibility inside a capitalist marketplace? Do we prefer the kids drive to a local bar to get their hard liquor and then drive back to the dorms? Does "banning" products readily available everywhere else really work?
I doubt it.
2
Obviously vodka and soda is much worse than wine when you have the same number of drinks in an evening.
The beer coming out of the kegs on college campuses is the furthest thing from a 14% craft beer. It is no stronger than Natural Light, 4.2%.
The beer coming out of the kegs on college campuses is the furthest thing from a 14% craft beer. It is no stronger than Natural Light, 4.2%.
I graduated from Dartmouth in 1984. This article could have been written then. Nothing has changed and nothing will change until the fraternities and sororities are banned. That will not happen. Why? Money. Alumni ties to fraternities are too strong.
17
West Virginia Frat Pledge Nolan Burch Had 0.493 Blood-Alcohol Level. A West Virginia University student who died after being found unconscious in a fraternity house had a blood-alcohol level more than SIX TIMES the legal limit for driving
If banning hard alcohol doesnt work - then try something else.
If banning hard alcohol doesnt work - then try something else.
5
I'm constantly surprised at how little school administrators understand or appreciate the reality of college social life. "Banning" hard liquor will do nothing to stop college kids from drinking it, nor should that be the goal. The only way to curb the trend of alcohol-related injuries on college campuses is to be realistic about the problem.
Yes, teenagers struggle with handling the newfound freedom and access to alcohol/drugs that they have when they get to college, and often go overboard. You don't respond to that by taking those things away from them and treating them like children; you respond by educating them on the dangers of alcohol and providing support for students that develop issues, as well as encouraging students to help one another when they run into trouble, without fearing the consequences.
These students are mostly over 18, meaning they are adults and will have to learn how to handle themselves around alcohol eventually. What better time and place to learn than college?
Yes, teenagers struggle with handling the newfound freedom and access to alcohol/drugs that they have when they get to college, and often go overboard. You don't respond to that by taking those things away from them and treating them like children; you respond by educating them on the dangers of alcohol and providing support for students that develop issues, as well as encouraging students to help one another when they run into trouble, without fearing the consequences.
These students are mostly over 18, meaning they are adults and will have to learn how to handle themselves around alcohol eventually. What better time and place to learn than college?
37
Adolescence lasts well into one's late twenties, and for some who are imbedded in an adolescent culture, it can last a lifetime.
1
Learn to handle alcohol at home where throwing up on Grandma at Thanksgiving or beer sliding through the kitchen at Christmas might be discouraged. Going to a prestigious Ivy League school - one hopes these best and brightest students would be handle this autonomy with greater maturity.
We can talk about what's legal or we can talk about what is true. The 18 year old brain -- as abundant numbers of scientific studies tell us -- is not yet mature. The drinking age (and the voting age) was lowered because old men wanted young men to carry guns into war...and the young men pointed out the irony of being considered old enough to kill, but not to drink or vote.
2
One last comment.
You have the entire rest of your life to drink and have sex. College is the chance you have to get an education. This is probably your last chance to be in an atmosphere where people actually care about knowledge.
When I think of college, I think of arguing with my peers and professors on whether Death of a Salesman qualifies as 'true' tragedy, or where the ethical limits are to human experimentation - Milgram, Zimbardo, etc. - or whether there might be validity to Jung's concept of the collective unconscious hardwired in the physiology of the brain, much as face recognition is hardwired, and group vs individual natural selection. Once you get out of college you will have far to seek to find anyone who even knows about these and hundreds of other subjects, much less cares enough to discuss them or has anything of interest to say. And one drunk is like another drunk; and as for sexual partners, put a bag over his/her head and turn out the lights, and they're pretty much all alike, too.
You have the entire rest of your life to drink and have sex. College is the chance you have to get an education. This is probably your last chance to be in an atmosphere where people actually care about knowledge.
When I think of college, I think of arguing with my peers and professors on whether Death of a Salesman qualifies as 'true' tragedy, or where the ethical limits are to human experimentation - Milgram, Zimbardo, etc. - or whether there might be validity to Jung's concept of the collective unconscious hardwired in the physiology of the brain, much as face recognition is hardwired, and group vs individual natural selection. Once you get out of college you will have far to seek to find anyone who even knows about these and hundreds of other subjects, much less cares enough to discuss them or has anything of interest to say. And one drunk is like another drunk; and as for sexual partners, put a bag over his/her head and turn out the lights, and they're pretty much all alike, too.
6
Dear ACW:
You should join the ex-patriate communities in university towns or cities here in Germany where intellectual discourse is a daily occurrence. We have lots of Brits and Americans too so there are many discussions using the English Language.
As for alcohol use, the students here drink and have been drinking for years but one does not hear that they turn into "animals".
There is something about the culture in the States that seems to bring on the drunken out of control behavior in many U.S. college /university
settings.
The root of the problem begins long before the age of 18
. I, myself, a graduate of one of the Seven Sisters, remember sitting dumbfounded on a Saturday evening in one of the elite clubs at Princeton as drunken supposedly brilliant young people kept falling over themselves on the slippery beer soaked floor. I could not believe it and thought the same thing that I am thinking today, wondering how they were reared.
From a former New Yorker
You should join the ex-patriate communities in university towns or cities here in Germany where intellectual discourse is a daily occurrence. We have lots of Brits and Americans too so there are many discussions using the English Language.
As for alcohol use, the students here drink and have been drinking for years but one does not hear that they turn into "animals".
There is something about the culture in the States that seems to bring on the drunken out of control behavior in many U.S. college /university
settings.
The root of the problem begins long before the age of 18
. I, myself, a graduate of one of the Seven Sisters, remember sitting dumbfounded on a Saturday evening in one of the elite clubs at Princeton as drunken supposedly brilliant young people kept falling over themselves on the slippery beer soaked floor. I could not believe it and thought the same thing that I am thinking today, wondering how they were reared.
From a former New Yorker
70
Thank you for your thoughtful reply - particularly since I lived in Princeton for awhile in my mid-20s as a 'townie' (my own school was a good private non-Ivy). I remember being afraid to walk through campus, particularly one warm evening after attending an on-campus screening of 'Clockwork Orange' sponsored by a film society. A woman walking home alone from a hall filled with men cheering on Malcolm McDowell as he brutally raped a woman? My time in Princeton thoroughly stripped me of any lingering 'Ivy envy' - whatever you went in as, you will come out as.
2
I don't think young people who have been biologically ready for sex for four years or more, but often prevented from engaging in it since they are considered "not mature enough," are going to want to wait another four years.
But there are certainly good alternatives to hard liquor, not all of them alcohol.
But there are certainly good alternatives to hard liquor, not all of them alcohol.
It's interesting how you liberals are screaming "Enforce the law," which by definition, treats people differently, but then throw a tantrum when a state decides that it is going to limit marriage to one man and one woman.
1
No reasonable liberal is screaming for Dartmouth to enforce the law when that's the job of the police.
Alcohol use among those ages 18-24 is lower on campus than among those who do not attend college, However, binge drinking on campus is 50% higher than off campus. Binge drinking, statistics suggest, is the problem that colleges most need to address. Eliminating hard liquor is a highly questionable strategy, Women tend to favor mixed rinks made with hard liquor, and many are not binge drinkers. Their demand for vodka and gin is likely to make Dartmouth's ban unenforceable. Enforcement strategies directed more specifically at binge drinking would impose ceilings on hard liquor purchased, possessed and consumed. Methods that come to mind are accounting oversight of fraternities and outreach to local liquor stores. Possession enforcement could include periodic unannounced inspection of fraternity supplies and inspection of packages of the sort typically containing cases of hard liquor. Most important, the university needs to send the message that it is targeting binge drinking, specifically, and not drinking itself. The key is to sell this to the students as a legitimate concern so that dodging enforcement does not become a sport. A mandatory session on the dangers of binge drinking presented by student leaders would be one sales technique. It's mostly in the selling. Voluntary compliance, in the end, is the only effective enforcement.
1
As a parent with a young Dartmouth student, these changes are right on the mark. Some of the commenters here are clearly unaware of the ubiquity of alcohol related sexual assault on every (4 yr) college campus and the high level of serious illness associated with alcohol overdosing. Many commenters incorrectly assume that Dartmouth and Ivy league campuses are the problem. Id bet that the problem is greater at many and most other 4 year colleges. The Presidents commission singled out numerous universities, most prestigious academic schools. Why is that? Because only academically prestigious schools have an alcohol and sexual assault problem ? Not quite. Its because, women at these schools have the resources and the advocacy to be heard. You can be sure the rate of sexual assault is higher at less academically rigorous schools where students have more time to socialize and there is more weight placed on varsity sports.
In a semirural campus, there is a need for a variety of social opportunities. There is a lack of these opportunities at Dartmouth outside of the fraternity /sorority offerings. Dr. Hanlon's proposal to alter the places of residency to within the university control (unlike frats) is a key to reducing dangerous behaviors. Also, there has never been the kind of effort being made now, this year, at many schools to educate students, particularly males about the problem of sexual assault.
Im a fan of the NYT and its readers, but many here are off the mark.
In a semirural campus, there is a need for a variety of social opportunities. There is a lack of these opportunities at Dartmouth outside of the fraternity /sorority offerings. Dr. Hanlon's proposal to alter the places of residency to within the university control (unlike frats) is a key to reducing dangerous behaviors. Also, there has never been the kind of effort being made now, this year, at many schools to educate students, particularly males about the problem of sexual assault.
Im a fan of the NYT and its readers, but many here are off the mark.
17
Thank you dwnh for getting to the crux of the issue. The true issue is sexual assaut(s) on campuses throughout the country. Assaults that have become so pervasive they've reached epidemic proportions. In the vast majority of these assaults alcohol played a vital role. The headlines scream at us on a daily basis : Vanderbilt yesterday, Ohio State the day before,and on and on and on. Please , everyone reading this post: Remeber the title of this documentary : "The Hunting Ground " . It's a piercing expose' of rape culture on campuses throughtout our country. It's now playing at Sundance and should become required viewing for all college kids, parents , administrators, et al. One final thought: Alcohol consumption is only one half of the problem The other half of the problem ( just as entrenched ) surfaces once the assault has occurred !
A tip of the cap to Dartmouth for at least starting the conversation. That's called leadership.
A tip of the cap to Dartmouth for at least starting the conversation. That's called leadership.
4
Frankly, too much emphasis is placed on the schools to promote moral, ethical behavior, responsible drinking, respect for woman, etc. Parents AND students need to take responsibility and be held accountable. $60,000+ for tuition, room, and board is a lot of money to be spent on vomiting every weekend.
2
This is long overdue. As an intern at the Dartmouth Medical Center years ago, I treated numerous cases of alcohol poisoning during those notorious Dartmouth week-ends. It is a distinguished institution of higher learning, but its stature has been diminished by a cavalier attitude toward alcohol and fraternity shenanigans which diminishes its intellectual and cultural life. Its students and faculty deserve better. Kudos to Dr. Hanlon for tackling this chronic problem. Hopefully other colleges and universities of similar stature will follow suit.
110
If Dartmouth takes this action it will hardly be a pace-setter. Many of the most prominent colleges in New England -- Bowdoin (my alma mater), Williams and Amherst, to name just three) -- recognized years ago that fraternities were a harmful anachronism and did away with them. Every college that has done so has become a better place, I dare say. The incriminating evidence has been there for decades; many like Dartmouth have simply refused to act, usually out of fear of alumni. As I recall, a delegation from Dartmouth visited Bowdoin to review the de-fraternization there. Did they learn anything or simply decline to face the facts?
15
If you read Pres. Hanlon's statement in its entirety, you will discover that he did indeed learn from the Bowdoin experience: merely banning fraternities had no significant impact on reducing alcohol-related problems there. The parties and abuse simply continued under different guises.
1
I’m glad that the administration at Dartmouth is working to regain more control over their campus. Universities in general need to do this. Fraternities and sports programs have begun to behave as if they’re answerable to no one. They've been causing a lot of embarrassment and legal problems for the colleges. The colleges that want to be known first and foremost as institutions of higher learning instead of ‘party schools’ should have responded to this a lot sooner for the sake of their reputations.
4
The spate of recent news articles about the prevalence of alcohol abuse and sexual assaults on campuses is but a symptom of a larger cultural issue in this country and a mirror showing us what we deem important, who and what we value most, and what our children have learned by watching our example. As if there aren't already enough laws on the books, or campus protocols to follow, that would take care of these issues...it's a matter of following through and enforcing what's there. But then again there's that problem of the mirror. Really, think about who is held accountable at any level in our country... a hint: if you hold the right perks like money, the right skin color, the right connections, or any sort of privileged position (in the case of colleges, think, here, of athletes or fraternities) you're good to go. Many young people aspire to the aforementioned perks because they know that it's those perks that get the goodies in adult life. And part of the problem is our ever-loving chase for money at the expense of ethics. As a friend says, "There's no adult in the room."
3
It is a fallacy, bordering on a delusion, to promote the idea that "hard liquor" is to blame for unethical behavior -- including rape. After five or six beers, most students will have urinated out or vomited up 95% of their scholastic aptitude and 100% of their judgment and common decency. Any attendee at a college mixer can attest to this reality.
Alcohol is the most lethal drug of choice for inducing death-by-car; it is the primary substance for inducing domestic violence and encouraging aggressive behavior; and it is profoundly addictive and dependency-inducing. Its long term effects are immensely destructive to the liver and brain. It manages to be all of these things even without the complications of raging teenage testosterone and the competitive, peer-pressured herd effects that surface at college clubs and associations.
If these kids' parents are paying for a fancy -- but drunken -- education, maybe you need to educate the parents by showing them what the pickled livers and brains of their children will look like, or how stupidly arrogant drunks behave.
Imagine what an experience it would be for socially awkward students to learn to speak from their un-inebriated hearts instead of relying on drunken arrogance, brawn, and bluster to "get over." Alcohol is their false courage!
Colleges that claim to build community and respect for fellow human beings should allow no place on campus or at any school sponsored event for alcohol. Educate; stop pandering.
Alcohol is the most lethal drug of choice for inducing death-by-car; it is the primary substance for inducing domestic violence and encouraging aggressive behavior; and it is profoundly addictive and dependency-inducing. Its long term effects are immensely destructive to the liver and brain. It manages to be all of these things even without the complications of raging teenage testosterone and the competitive, peer-pressured herd effects that surface at college clubs and associations.
If these kids' parents are paying for a fancy -- but drunken -- education, maybe you need to educate the parents by showing them what the pickled livers and brains of their children will look like, or how stupidly arrogant drunks behave.
Imagine what an experience it would be for socially awkward students to learn to speak from their un-inebriated hearts instead of relying on drunken arrogance, brawn, and bluster to "get over." Alcohol is their false courage!
Colleges that claim to build community and respect for fellow human beings should allow no place on campus or at any school sponsored event for alcohol. Educate; stop pandering.
10
So many well-intentioned commenters (like the one above) correctly diagnose the problem (college students drink too much), and then suggest, wishfully, that education is the answer. The truth, however, is that there is very little evidence that education actually changes young adults' choices. Numerous studies bear this out. Especially not in a hyper-competitive, self-worshipping, consumer-driven, materialistic, debt-soaked, elite-worshipping, winner-take-all society. Where self-medication by alcohol abuse and dependence is rampant. The reason Dartmouth's well-intentioned initiative will inevitably fail is because the problem is...us. All of us. Until this country re-calibrates its value system, and especially the value system followed by elites, drinking too much (and the many other forms of self-medication) will continue to be a problem. But we shouldn't complain. In a democracy we have exactly the kind of society we have asked for.
2
Getting drunk is getting an education?
Kick the drunks out.
Give scholarships and drunks' seats to serious kids from the poor side of town.
Create a managerial class that feels empathy not privilege.
Kick the drunks out.
Give scholarships and drunks' seats to serious kids from the poor side of town.
Create a managerial class that feels empathy not privilege.
34
Great news for Dartmouth. During my college years a long time ago, I was a member of a national fraternity, which had banned hazing years previously, and still does. That should be a minimum standard for all Greeks, and I believe faculty attendance should be required at every social event, Greek and others which are a part of institional life. College is far more than getting drunk at everything goes events. That behavior must be stopped. It gives whisky a bad name.
3
Kudos to Dartmouth, although this is long over-due. Many administrations have long-tolerated this. Professors, TAs, RAs, all knew this was going on and did nothing. So, better late than never. On the other side of the coin, who are these young people they are admitting? And what have their families failed to teach them? As an "Ivy" Dartmouth only accepts the top students with impressive high school resumes and scores, but no one seems to care about their character. I am sure the applicants have all volunteered at hospital and nursing homes, helped the homeless, etc. but have no inner core of morals, ethics and human compassion and empathy for others. Time to start screening for those qualities too.
61
It is uninformed at best to think faculty and graduate students have or ever had the power to stop this; meaningful reform of any kind is top level administration or nothing.
2
The children have lately been showing they are just that and still need supervision. Schools should return to in loco parentis. It had its faults but not nearly so many as what seems to be happening at colleges and universities, especially at the so-called best colleges and universities.
2
Bravo, President Hanlon! Dartmouth has long needed a strong, level-headed, educator as a national leader for what used to be known as "higher" education. It is well-positioned, as a prestigious institution, to use its selectivity in students and faculty, to define and establish an authentic culture of rigorous liberal education. There is not much competition for that leadership these days, so Hanlon is moving into a niche that has been empty and open for the last half-century, when the late 'sixties time of troubles erupted and traumatized both faculties and administrations. Good luck to him!
3
When did drinking to excess become so pervasive on our college campuses?
Maybe it's time we starting treating social drinking the same as the Europeans do...teach our children how to drink responsibly before they leave for college....but then that would mean lowering the national drinking age to 18 or 19, and we can't do that because that would mean we'd have to treat them like adults!
Maybe it's time we starting treating social drinking the same as the Europeans do...teach our children how to drink responsibly before they leave for college....but then that would mean lowering the national drinking age to 18 or 19, and we can't do that because that would mean we'd have to treat them like adults!
2
I give the Dartmouth President a failing grade on this approach. The students will work around the new university rules on drinking hard alcohol.
A better question to ask: why do students in certain countries have a healthier view of drinking than Americana students? What can the college do to get students to approach drinking in a more responsible manner?
Old traditions will die hard at Dartmouth building new traditions (and thinking) may be the answer. Good luck with ban on hooch though...
A better question to ask: why do students in certain countries have a healthier view of drinking than Americana students? What can the college do to get students to approach drinking in a more responsible manner?
Old traditions will die hard at Dartmouth building new traditions (and thinking) may be the answer. Good luck with ban on hooch though...
1
Alcohol is a drug and people use drugs as a means of escape. In moderation that escape might be described as simple as the need to relax, or an opportunity to unwind. When used in excess, especially when excess appears to have become an ingrained part of campus culture, it speaks to a need to escape from something that is much more pernicious. Perhaps the faculty and administration should take a step back and address the root cause of this need to escape rather than merely addressing the symptom. I am an Ivy leaguer from the early 70s and we certainly had our turn at the fraternty bar, not to mention other, more illicit forms of escape from the pressures at hand, but when it comes to escapism these kids today appear to be desperate. So ask yourself, Dartmouth and others, are you yourself a part of the problem? In my humble opinion, in the never ending arms race to become an "elite" institution these schools have assembled student bodies that are terribly myopic and placed them in campus environments that are insane pressure cookers. Why should it come as a surprise that like their SATs, their resumes and everything else in their lives their need to escape is prodigious.
45
Good grief. Poor poor kids. Such pressure. Let's encourage their binge-drinking to relax. There seems to be no moderation.
This might be a valid assessment if binge drinking didn't also happen plentifully at the scores of not-so-ivy schools around the nation.
While it is true that the institutions compete for elite status, the real issue is the competition among the students and their families for elite status. When membership in the top 1% is the goal, is should not be a surprise that it requires intense effort, fierce competition and a compelling need to escape from the pressure cooker. Drinking, drug use and sport sex provide a readily available escape. That has always been the case and it will always be the case.
1
What would be a better idea is to promote substance free dorms for kids that have had issues in H.S. and college freshman who would rather be there to learn and have fun without alcohol or drugs. Across all colleges in the country, it is very difficult to avoid the party culture.
A family member who had alcohol issues needed a few rehabs and finally got it together, graduating at the top of the class with a solid A average, the last 2 years being completely sober. What a difference it could make in some lives.
A family member who had alcohol issues needed a few rehabs and finally got it together, graduating at the top of the class with a solid A average, the last 2 years being completely sober. What a difference it could make in some lives.
6
Sad and appalling that any college student needs (and can afford!) multiple rehabs before graduating.
Drinking at fraternities has been an issue forever, but in recent years seems to have become mor serious, dangerous, and violent, especially towards young women. There always used to be a majority on campuses that had a modicum of maturity, but these days, not so much. Again, sad. Especially when college education is so hideously expensive. What a waste!
Drinking at fraternities has been an issue forever, but in recent years seems to have become mor serious, dangerous, and violent, especially towards young women. There always used to be a majority on campuses that had a modicum of maturity, but these days, not so much. Again, sad. Especially when college education is so hideously expensive. What a waste!
2
Grownups are such dorks. This is will never work. It has been tried for millenia. History doesn't repeat itself, man does.
This is an extreme measure, and will probably backfire. Hanover is not New York, or Providence, or Philadelphia, or even Princeton (with its access to the city) -- for an Ivy League college, Dartmouth is both isolated and relatively provincial. Which at least partly explains its traditional heavy-drinking culture. The banning of hard liquor, almost certainly, is going to generate (is already generating -- witness The Times' placement) a loud and sustained publicity backlash, which will of course draw even greater attention to the college's boozy culture -- which in turn can only damage its reputation further. And the students meanwhile will continue to find ways to drink. All in all, not a wise solution.
3
How about a ban on stupidity.
2
So it's back to a 12-pack before starting the evenings activities.
This "ban the hard liqour" rule will have 0 impact.
This "ban the hard liqour" rule will have 0 impact.
2
Good. That place was a sea of multicolored barf when I visited a friend there in the 1980s. What a worthless place to get an education: high tuition, in the sticks, with drinking for the only 'relaxation'.
6
Out with the Alcohol and parties. University is about learning.
1
Middlebury College in Vermont did something quite similar more than a decade ago, and for much the same reasons. Greek fraternities were banned . The same arguments about not being possible were then raised, but it was done anyway. It seems to not only have lasted, but the college now thrives. Perhaps a follow-up story on Middlebury would help this discussion?
22
That College (it is a small college sir, but there are those who love it...Daniel Webster) has always relied too heavily on fraternities for keeping its students in Hanover, anesthetized to the long winters, and occupied when not in class. They must have a student union building -- use that for counter-fraternity social events. Rather than build structures or pretend that dorms can be residential colleges, why not spend some money to bring cultural events to the campus. How many years ago did Animal House come out -- what has changed? Most alums don't want change. Too bad.
3
What does it tell us about the state of our society, when the wanton behavior discussed here is so widespread among our presumed elite, at a time when a colleg education is the key to worldly success a d A erica's position in the world?
5
It tells us that it is a really, really sweet gig to get into an elite university serving the American Empire's need for technocrats and bureaucrats, so much so that you can do pretty much what you please once you get there.
When the Empire falters, it might have to revert to some sort of meritocracy in divvying up imperial spoils. Until then, the brats are in charge.
When the Empire falters, it might have to revert to some sort of meritocracy in divvying up imperial spoils. Until then, the brats are in charge.
1
I went to a college that was officially dry -- NO alcohol -- enforced by campus police and housemothers. Wow, the hangovers I recall. Go off campus to a party or a bar. Date a guy with a car.
Those were occasional occurrences. The broader issue today is students who seem to be compelled to drink all the time, and to wretched excess -- utterly losing control. Is this a side effect of growing up with helicopter parents and no responsibilities??
Those were occasional occurrences. The broader issue today is students who seem to be compelled to drink all the time, and to wretched excess -- utterly losing control. Is this a side effect of growing up with helicopter parents and no responsibilities??
2
Universities, judging by their cost, think very well of themselves; and perhaps have only begun to consider that parental attitudes to their product might have changed with the runaway rise in tuition. I think what might have seemed a good enough deal to parents at one price point - 4 years of drinking/drugs, fatal for some few every year, like ritual sacrifice - seems less so at another. Perhaps especially to parents who may not themselves have attended college in America and so do not consider college drinking culture either essential or quintessential.
1
Good luck with that. Kids have been drinking on and off campus for years. A prohibition isn't going to change that.
Haven't other schools done this and had zero success?
I'm not saying that there doesn't need to be a shift in the alcohol culture on America's campuses, but I don't think this ban will solve anything. I'm not sure, however, what the solution is. Probably what needs to happen is a zero tolerance policy: if you break the rules, you're expelled and your credits are canceled. Let's treat a serious problem with serious consequences.
I'm not saying that there doesn't need to be a shift in the alcohol culture on America's campuses, but I don't think this ban will solve anything. I'm not sure, however, what the solution is. Probably what needs to happen is a zero tolerance policy: if you break the rules, you're expelled and your credits are canceled. Let's treat a serious problem with serious consequences.
13
As a New Englander, this is one thing I respect about some parts of California: there is an outdoors and multi-ethnic and creative culture here in CA. Whereas in much of New England, social life still centers around alcohol consumption: "Pub Culture" as I call it, is definitely a dark part of life in New England.
Dartmouth is doing the right thing to eliminate this. People in college circa 20015 are kids. Kids don't need to be drinking hard liquor or really any liquor.
Dartmouth is doing the right thing to eliminate this. People in college circa 20015 are kids. Kids don't need to be drinking hard liquor or really any liquor.
6
Adults behave as kids if we treat them like kids. We are seeing our society morph into accepting 26 year old "kids".
The solution is to treat them as adults...with adult repsonsibilty and adult consequences.
The solution is to treat them as adults...with adult repsonsibilty and adult consequences.
Most college students are legally adults, and what Hanlon is proposing is to take their adult status from them while the attend Dartmouth. It's like when public school teachers were fired if they married. Maybe spinster teachers were better, but the policy was wrong. This is supposed to be a country where your civil rights are respected.
2
Mr. Hanson states that the need for more alcohol-free social space "will ultimately require construction of additional facilities" ?? So our college campuses that are already bloated with recreational amenities now want to add more so they can contain the silly antics of the not-quite adult? And undoubtedly increase fees to pay for it? How about you just make the first 2 years of college available online. Take all those introductory courses from the comfort of your own home and let your parents deal with any drunkeness. The whole point of college has become so warped as to no longer be recognizable...
7
Somehow I doubt Dartmouth pays for its buildings through student fees...
Never known as the intellectual bastion of the Ivy League. Always known as the hard charging, hard drinking college camp for the privileged LL-Bean, Patagonia types who couldn't get into HPY . This is going to be a difficult cultural shift for the party central of the Ivies. Good luck to the President. Long over due, but nearly impossible to change?
12
I concur and hope your comment survives. Here, reality clashes with pride.
Having attended many house parties at this college many, many years ago, I was surprised to see that not much has changed over the past 40 years. Drinking then and apparently, is still, a big problem in Hanover. But then, what else is there to do?
2
OH please. went to college in tiny Midwestern town. movies. concerts. sports. plays. We were always busy. Nothing to do is a cop out for kids with no purpose orinterests beyond themselves.
11
Study?
Ski?
Skate?
Hike?
Act like an adult?
Seems like there should be a lot to do in Hanover. Why not just expel the troublemakers? Unless, of course, they are one-and-the-same as the legacy admits and the the president won't be able to spend inordinate amounts of donated money to build a new, groovy, building for his presidential legacy.
Ski?
Skate?
Hike?
Act like an adult?
Seems like there should be a lot to do in Hanover. Why not just expel the troublemakers? Unless, of course, they are one-and-the-same as the legacy admits and the the president won't be able to spend inordinate amounts of donated money to build a new, groovy, building for his presidential legacy.
5
Sneak into a practice room with a piano, write music and come up with a hit song, sketch in May or September, ski or learn to snowshoe.
1
The Greek system (why it is called a system no one knows) is nonsense. It is after all a culture of, for, and by, juvenile males fresh, and recently out of high school. The main thing it has going for it is that by containing the inhabitants the rest of the community avoids having to deal with the property destroying animal like behavior exhibited nation wide. Doubt this is true, simply talk to anyone living in a frat neighborhood, and or property management companies renting apartments in these neighborhoods.
[A 1996 study examined the cognitive effects of fraternity/sorority affiliation during the first year of college. Statistical controls were made for individual pre-college ability and academic motivation as well as gender, ethnicity, age, credit hours taken, work responsibilities, and other factors. Data showed that men who were members of fraternities had significantly lower end-of-first-year reading comprehension, mathematics, critical thinking, and composite achievement than their peers who were not affiliated with a Greek organization. Sorority membership also had a negative effect on cognitive development. However, only the effects for reading comprehension and composite achievement were significant and the magnitude of the negative influence tended to be smaller for women than for men.] Wikipedia
[A 1996 study examined the cognitive effects of fraternity/sorority affiliation during the first year of college. Statistical controls were made for individual pre-college ability and academic motivation as well as gender, ethnicity, age, credit hours taken, work responsibilities, and other factors. Data showed that men who were members of fraternities had significantly lower end-of-first-year reading comprehension, mathematics, critical thinking, and composite achievement than their peers who were not affiliated with a Greek organization. Sorority membership also had a negative effect on cognitive development. However, only the effects for reading comprehension and composite achievement were significant and the magnitude of the negative influence tended to be smaller for women than for men.] Wikipedia
7
every business and organizational team management skill I have I learned in a sorority. we had higher grades, more campus activities and we ran a company of 50 women, from discipline to cleaning to good ordering.
1
You obviously have knowledge of and experience with the system you are commenting on, the one at Dartmouth.
I applaud Dr. Hanlon's efforts. It's not going to be easy to influence the alcohol-soaked culture.
I note the convictions of two football players at Vanderbilt for aggravated rape. I don't condone really harsh sentences for these rapists, because they were teens at the time of their crime.
But I do support significant penalties for the many people who saw or knew about the attack on the victim, but did nothing to stop it or report it. Getting bystanders to intervene is key.
I note the convictions of two football players at Vanderbilt for aggravated rape. I don't condone really harsh sentences for these rapists, because they were teens at the time of their crime.
But I do support significant penalties for the many people who saw or knew about the attack on the victim, but did nothing to stop it or report it. Getting bystanders to intervene is key.
5
For a young man who raped an unconscious woman, shoved a bottle inside her body, and then urinated on her? What should he get, probation? I hope he rots in prison.
14
I am beginning to see why people would pay $60k/year for this kind of elite educational experience.
If this stuff happened in any other major institution in American life, the administrators would be fired with prejudice, made to appear before legal authorities for lack of oversight, negligence and hauled before Congressional committees for coal rakings.
If this stuff happened in any other major institution in American life, the administrators would be fired with prejudice, made to appear before legal authorities for lack of oversight, negligence and hauled before Congressional committees for coal rakings.
7
No need for extra facilities. Just do as we did at Williams -- shut down those bastions of traditional male values, enforced by manipulation, humiliation, and a remorseless conformism.
42
As every decent school has done.
2
What have you got against local sororities and co-ed houses?
Kidding aside, the one sure way to require extra facilities would be to shut down the frats.
Kidding aside, the one sure way to require extra facilities would be to shut down the frats.
1
The proposed changes are sweeping, considering the campus climate when I was there. But the proposal to build new facilities is misguided. What would be the purpose of these new facilities and how would they be utilized?
The reason that Greek Houses are so popular (and fun) is because they are fun and unsupervised. Also Dartmouth Pong.
If the administration (which seems to care way more than Dr. Kim) really wanted to try a radical solution, it should sponsor a sanctioned "Masters" game every term (Masters is where various teams from the Greek houses send their best "teams" to compete in Pong). The even is secretive, extremely popular, and houses train for it all term. Bring it out into the light and make it part of the above board community. That would be a radical step.
The other proposed changes, banning hard liquor, and permanent communities are interesting and bold (and I imagine there are a lot of student complaints).
The reason that Greek Houses are so popular (and fun) is because they are fun and unsupervised. Also Dartmouth Pong.
If the administration (which seems to care way more than Dr. Kim) really wanted to try a radical solution, it should sponsor a sanctioned "Masters" game every term (Masters is where various teams from the Greek houses send their best "teams" to compete in Pong). The even is secretive, extremely popular, and houses train for it all term. Bring it out into the light and make it part of the above board community. That would be a radical step.
The other proposed changes, banning hard liquor, and permanent communities are interesting and bold (and I imagine there are a lot of student complaints).
1
For those who think there's no policy that can limit underage drinking, lol, don't be so sure. First, there are no exceptions to the minimum legal drinking age in New Hampshire as there are in other states, so the college should ask law enforcement for assistance in enforcing the law. They also should also impose a curfew (oh my!)...if people don't like it then they can choose to a different school. There's plenty of other kids that want to go there to take their places.
4
"Work is the plague of the drinking classes." Instead of banning alchohol. Let professors off the chain with what they assign. Actually give out something besides an A or a B. Flunk bad students out. Live with a temporary dip in applications and retention rate until you attract the kind of students that actually will take advantage of the enormous educational opportunities Dartmouth has to offer.
12
Back in the dark ages when Pennsylvania had a 21 year old drinking age when all the states around it had a drinking age of 18 the University of Pennsylvania took matters into its own hands. Wine or sherry events sponsored by some college entity were common. The restaurants around campus also served at least beer to virtually everyone. It did not completely stop binge drinking but it was not an outrageous problem. Dartmouth should remove the mystic and the difficulty of drinking in moderation.
My cousin went to Dartmouth and majored in beer which, unlike hard liquor, contains no alcohol, right? D'oh.
2
They base this decision on data relating to alcohol overdose requiring hospitalization. Maybe the ban will have some efficacy in that very limited application (though I doubt it). It won't change anything else. The whole project seems doomed.
4
I fear that in the future, especially the time period before Hanlon's spring ban on hard alcohol, will see some of the school's most rampant alcohol abuse. College students will always rebel against rules, especially when those rules aim to ban a pastime that distracts students from the glaring lack of activity available in Hanover, NH. Hanlon may have made the problem worse by forcing hard liquor drinking further into the shadows.
Why not simply enforce the law on underage drinking? Why have college-imposed penalties when there are criminal penalties already in effect? To shield the young miscreants from the consequences of their deeds?
5
Why should a private institution be dragooned into enforcing state law? Shouldn't you be asking your question of the Hanover Police Department? When has a private school ever had the authority to enforce a criminal law?
Prohibition only forces people to seek work arounds and drives the banned behavior underground. Way. To. Go.
3
Do you have a better, or at least, another, idea?
1
This is a private institution that can make its own rules.
Think this through rather than just resorting to that glib old saw.
If these students, instead of going to college, had gone directly to work, they would not be able to drink on the premises. They would be expected to be sober at work.
Education is their 'work' for the next four years (or however many years it takes them to graduate). Make a rule. Enforce it. If they can't follow the rules, they're not mature enough to go to college. Expel them, no tuition refund. That'll do it.
Think this through rather than just resorting to that glib old saw.
If these students, instead of going to college, had gone directly to work, they would not be able to drink on the premises. They would be expected to be sober at work.
Education is their 'work' for the next four years (or however many years it takes them to graduate). Make a rule. Enforce it. If they can't follow the rules, they're not mature enough to go to college. Expel them, no tuition refund. That'll do it.
2
The effect this is going to have is to create more of the destructive "pre-gaming" that the dean cites to. A significant portion of college students do not like beer (particularly women) and you can expect them to try to load up on a night full of drinks before even heading to the event. The fact, as shown through decades of this approach, is that if you treat students as if they are unable to be responsible with alcohol, that makes them more likely to act irresponsibily when imbibing. A much better option would be to not crack down on drinking itself, but crack down severely on any irresponsible CONDUCT that results from the drinking (open containers, noise violations, public intoxication, etc.) That is how you change the culture, by setting the bounds of acceptable behavior when using alcohol; this is just going to make the act of drinking hard liquor seem cooler and thus a pursuit in itself.
12
I think they should just try 'double secret probation' and see if that works.
3
I wish Dr. Hanlon well in his exercise in futility. Alcohol is part of the American college experience. Universities and colleges can usually "survive" periodic episodes of major alcohol abuse on campus. The public will be happy with any sort of realistic response as Dr. Hanlon is attempting.
He might have a bigger problem if the College began to develop the opposite reputation. Applications might decline in face of more sobriety.
Perhaps more students need to learn of the benefits of marijuana. Safer in every way than alcohol including a more interesting high.
He might have a bigger problem if the College began to develop the opposite reputation. Applications might decline in face of more sobriety.
Perhaps more students need to learn of the benefits of marijuana. Safer in every way than alcohol including a more interesting high.
2
Doesn't work and inevitably backfires. Since kids will fear and reject the Administration's austerity, banning hard alcohol will just exacerbate the problem with students 'closet drinking' and ultimately increasing the likelihood of alcohol poisoning and death.
Face it - kids will be kids... they'll rebel, unite under their perceived oppression of prohibition, and certainly drink more to prove their point.
If you want kids to be adults, treat them like adults If you have a campus drinking problem then properly diagnose the causes and use your levers appropriately (increase your academic rigor to keep them studying harder, provide opportunities for kids to escape Hanover's limited social world, etc.).
Applying a blunt policy pill to the symptom will not cure the disease. But whatever you do, avoid the phrase "because I said so" at all costs.
Face it - kids will be kids... they'll rebel, unite under their perceived oppression of prohibition, and certainly drink more to prove their point.
If you want kids to be adults, treat them like adults If you have a campus drinking problem then properly diagnose the causes and use your levers appropriately (increase your academic rigor to keep them studying harder, provide opportunities for kids to escape Hanover's limited social world, etc.).
Applying a blunt policy pill to the symptom will not cure the disease. But whatever you do, avoid the phrase "because I said so" at all costs.
7
Society has already made the policy choices--students must be 21 to drink alcohol. Enforce these penalties. The college has no right to ignore illegal, underage drinking, yet it has for decades.
8
Kids aren't adults. Until they can act like adults on their own when no supervision is present, there is no reason to treat them as such.
4
Deborah, they're not 'kids'. They are young adults, but they are adults. Until about 100 years ago, there was no such social phase as 'adolescence' - it's an artificial construct born of the industrial revolution's requirements to educate workers more and also to delay their entry into the workforce. (Please spare me the junk science about underdeveloped forebrain - unless you are willing to accept, say, that because a woman's brain is usually smaller than a man's she must be less intelligent. Neuroscience has, if anything, established that the regions of the brain are flexible and that physiology is only part of the story.)
In previous generations, when 'kids' were required to 'man (or woman) up', they did. What we lack is the backbone - we're extending childhood forever, and no surprise our colleges have devolved into the Dupont U. that Tom Wolfe portrayed in 'I Am Charlotte Simmons'.
In previous generations, when 'kids' were required to 'man (or woman) up', they did. What we lack is the backbone - we're extending childhood forever, and no surprise our colleges have devolved into the Dupont U. that Tom Wolfe portrayed in 'I Am Charlotte Simmons'.
6
The lead sentence of this article -- "After a spate of student misbehavior that has tarnished the reputation of Dartmouth College, its president on Thursday announced..." -- could have been published in 1977, my freshman fall, when the drinking age was 18 and Hanover was as saturated in booze culture, and shameful related excesses, as it is today. Read Chris Miller's account of his drunken fraternity exploits in 1962-64, which became the basis of his "Animal House" film script, and it's plain the same situation obtained when I was in diapers. I believe it will not be much different years from now when I am pushing up the daisies. In "Jurassic Park" a scientist obserces: life finds a way. At Dartmouth, booze finds a way. No matter the rules.
1
I live in a college town and I sometimes wonder where the adults are on the campus. Treating 18 year olds, 60 days out of high school, as adults is laughable. The administration, if they took their jobs seriously, could stop the abuse immediately. the common term is "rules of behavior". " Students pay attention: here are the rules. 1, If you are transported to the hospital for either drug or alcohol abuse you will be expelled, 2, If you are arrested for fighting, open container, public lewdness, disturbing the piece you will be expelled. 3, do I have to go on...do you get the point. If students get in trouble it is the administrations fault. Stop with the excuses, like they pay to come here or their parents are alums or are big donors. This is college not a
community hang out. Obey the rules or go home.
The only reason drinking, drugging and partying is part of college life is because the adults have abdicated their authority and turned the campus over to the students.
The other part of this is the cost to the community for police and other services which in a lot of cases is volunteer. It all gets to be an old story after a while.
community hang out. Obey the rules or go home.
The only reason drinking, drugging and partying is part of college life is because the adults have abdicated their authority and turned the campus over to the students.
The other part of this is the cost to the community for police and other services which in a lot of cases is volunteer. It all gets to be an old story after a while.
44
Wait--how about the the ban on underage drinking. It's called the law. Already. You don't need to get as far as the ER of arrests for fighting. If you are caught drinking underage, penalties. Colleges have turned a blind eye (enabled) underage drinking for decades. Stop.
4
"Treating 18 year olds, 60 days out of high school, as adults is laughable".............
It's 18 and 19 year olds that we've been shipping off to wars for over ten years now.......another example of the disconnect in American life. If you're 18 and can afford college you're a 'kid' for however long you can stay in academe. If you can't afford it, it's 'Let's saddle up, troops'......
It's 18 and 19 year olds that we've been shipping off to wars for over ten years now.......another example of the disconnect in American life. If you're 18 and can afford college you're a 'kid' for however long you can stay in academe. If you can't afford it, it's 'Let's saddle up, troops'......
1
We've been shipping them off to war as 18 year-olds for many more than the last 10 years. Yet, the severity of the high school and college drinking problem is more recent. I think there's a disconnect in your logic.
3
It's a good start and need to go much further. A total alcohol ban would have been preferable. I am not certain of what the New Hampshire legal age minimums to drink alcohol are, but the school providing new spaces other than fraternities and sororities is welcomed!
3
While not a pledge participant, I happily swam in the "kiddie pool of vomit, urine, feces, semen and rotten food." Such behavior is not a result of campus inebriation, but a long-accepted - and indeed honorable - practice of adolescent rebellion to social norms, a deliberate and predictable antithesis to the wholesome Disneyworld whimsy we grew up with. I for one encourage students to binge and purge until they realize that doing so is rarely sustainable in the long run. In my case, binging continuously for seven consecutive years until graduation brought me together with my lifelong galpal and future candidate for attorney general of the United States.
7
Well, I'm glad that drinking like a fish for 7 years worked out so well for you. Me, I got two parents with lifelong drinking problems that began when they met, and dated, in college.
43
Hm. I didn't go Ivy and paid my own way. Perhaps that is why I spent my four years acquainting myself with Chaucer, Shakespeare, Stendhal, Crick and Watson, Socrates, Euripides, Gunter Grass, Thomas Mann, Aquinas, Shaw, et al. rather than Jack Daniels. The only Trojans I made the acquaintance of were the ones who fought Achilles, and I never drank anything stronger than coffee (in moderation) or swallowed any pills stronger than aspirin.
I don't think I missed anything worth having. But then, I went to college to learn.
I wonder how many people 'got' your choice of screen name ... and also recall that the Ivy student who won great éclat initially for her novel 'How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, Got Wild, and Got a Life' turned out to have plagiarized most of it ....
I don't think I missed anything worth having. But then, I went to college to learn.
I wonder how many people 'got' your choice of screen name ... and also recall that the Ivy student who won great éclat initially for her novel 'How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, Got Wild, and Got a Life' turned out to have plagiarized most of it ....
3
It is a correct decision taken by Dartmouth, I don't see why anyone should
object with Dartmout banning hard liquor. College is a place to study, to gain knowledge, to make career not a place for having hard drink and creating all nuisance, doing crazy stuffs, sexually assaulting their own friends under the influence of alcohol. Those who oppose the measure can they tell us how to prevent such type of behavior. They would better understand this if their daughter or sisters where studying in similar environment and facing the music. For fun anyhow college is allowing liquor wine and beer which have less alcohol.
I wish colleges have some student exchange programme for spoiled college kids with developing country to see how much facilities they are getting here in this country which is not available in other developing countries and how much they are abusing these facilities rather than using them to advance their career.
object with Dartmout banning hard liquor. College is a place to study, to gain knowledge, to make career not a place for having hard drink and creating all nuisance, doing crazy stuffs, sexually assaulting their own friends under the influence of alcohol. Those who oppose the measure can they tell us how to prevent such type of behavior. They would better understand this if their daughter or sisters where studying in similar environment and facing the music. For fun anyhow college is allowing liquor wine and beer which have less alcohol.
I wish colleges have some student exchange programme for spoiled college kids with developing country to see how much facilities they are getting here in this country which is not available in other developing countries and how much they are abusing these facilities rather than using them to advance their career.
8
College does not get to "allow" beer and wine. The kids we're talking about (I hope) are undergraduates, some 60-70% of whom are underage.
It's illegal for them to drink. Anywhere in the state. Why is this such a difficult concept for colleges to grasp? Because they don't want to lose the business.
It's illegal for them to drink. Anywhere in the state. Why is this such a difficult concept for colleges to grasp? Because they don't want to lose the business.
6
" I don't see why anyone should object with Dartmouth banning hard liquor"
How about just banning liquor in general from the campus as the majority of the students are underage. Freshman - age 17 or 18 tops.
How about studying, going to a football game, playing a rec sport, going to a movie and some more studying if there is nothing to do....
How about just banning liquor in general from the campus as the majority of the students are underage. Freshman - age 17 or 18 tops.
How about studying, going to a football game, playing a rec sport, going to a movie and some more studying if there is nothing to do....
Smart move by President Hanlon. Other Ivy league schools, are you going to follow suit? Stanford? Or don't you have any drinking issues at your institutions? Time for other schools to follow Dartmouth's lead.
19
They already do. When I was at Harvard, Dartmouth was already considered the ivy's 'drinking' school, presumably by its relative isolation.
1
On road trips from Yale to Dartmouth, I always preferred ganga to gin. So President Hanlon's prohibition on liquor would not have darkened my bright college days/nights while visiting Hanover, especially with Vermont exploring legalization just across the Connecticut River.
5
Drinking age 16 (when kids actually start to drink)
Driving age 18 (when all those kids, who actually do drink, should be allowed to get behind the wheel)
This would eliminate so many problems.
And we'd get enjoy and teach our kids how to drink responsibly at home.
Unfortunately a too civilized approach in our prudish society that somehow extols extraordinary violence in our media and video games yet shrieks at the sight of women's' boobs or two men kissing.
Driving age 18 (when all those kids, who actually do drink, should be allowed to get behind the wheel)
This would eliminate so many problems.
And we'd get enjoy and teach our kids how to drink responsibly at home.
Unfortunately a too civilized approach in our prudish society that somehow extols extraordinary violence in our media and video games yet shrieks at the sight of women's' boobs or two men kissing.
5
Actually, much of what goes in and causes harm in college settings has nothing to do with driving.
Drinking is illegal for most of these kids. So enforce the law.
Drinking is illegal for most of these kids. So enforce the law.
1
Three generations of my family went to Dartmouth and I visited many times in the late 70's and early 80's. The drinking culture was prodigious, and many of the drinking games and culture we had in my home town were imported from my brother's japes in Hanover. The stories were legion, and it is asaid that muchof 'Animal House' was based on Dartmouth. How much things have changed over those years I haven't a clue, but changing a culture like that will take a lot of effort and time.
56
I visited Dartmouth as a part of a high school group in the early 70s, and as part of our visit we toured a fraternity house. Our guide showed us his room, which had a working wet bar. When some of us expressed our amazement at the set-up, he took on a tone that sought properly inform us---"Despite what you may have heard, Dartmouth is the Greatest of the Great Eastern Party Schools."
It will be worth it, assuming that Dartmouth is at all like it was 50 years ago. Yes, Chris Miller, Carl Ballentine (actually a decent guy behind it all), AD fraternity--this was Animal House. But it wasn't really much fun at all.
1
I visited a friend who was attending Dartmouth around 1997, and stayed with him for a few days. I've gotta say, I've never in my life seen a party scene like I saw that weekend. I'm not going to blame anyone for my drinking, but people would hand me drinks that got me drunk within minutes. And I thought of myself as someone who could drink. To this day, I still tell people stories about what went on there.
If it was a religious school doing this. I could here the outrage as the right tried to send America back to the 18 century.
But, it is progressives so it is alright. Most people think it was the religious right that gave us the ban on alcohol and the end to red light districts. It wasn't. It was the progressive movement that did it to save the working man and for the children.
Just look at California's history and you will see it was a Progressive Governor that that did more to end adult freedom that the right has ever done.
Drugs, drinking, violence and other crimes take place in society. Instead of trying to turn everyone into a child of the State. Start enforcing the laws on campus. The police should be a real police force and not part of the College.
But, it is progressives so it is alright. Most people think it was the religious right that gave us the ban on alcohol and the end to red light districts. It wasn't. It was the progressive movement that did it to save the working man and for the children.
Just look at California's history and you will see it was a Progressive Governor that that did more to end adult freedom that the right has ever done.
Drugs, drinking, violence and other crimes take place in society. Instead of trying to turn everyone into a child of the State. Start enforcing the laws on campus. The police should be a real police force and not part of the College.
19
Dartmouth is NOT a progressive school: not when I attended in the 70s and certainly not now. It gave the world such notorious progressives as Dinesh d'Souza and Laura Ingraham, and the debate is still ongoing regarding its erstwhile mascot, the Dartmouth Indian. Where would American discourse be without the Dartmouth Review?
1
That's ridiculous. There are religious colleges all over the country that ban drinking altogether, and there's no outrage over it. How you managed to turn this into a conservative-versus-progressive issue is difficult to imagine.
1
"just look at California's history and you will see it was a Progressive Governor that that did more to end adult freedom that the right has ever done. "
Citation?
Citation?
There is a simple reason that Greek organizations will not be banned, although some may face lesser discipline. A lot of the donations to colleges come from alumni of fraternities. Just think for example of the billion dollars or so that Michael Bloomberg has given to Johns Hopkins University; when there was a possibility that his fraternity would lose the zoning on its house after taking too long to renovate it, he promised to pay any legal costs necessary to keep its zoning. There is a reason that despite all the problems with fraternities (and more with fraternities than with sororities), colleges keep them around.
1
Three big cheers for Dr. Hanlon.
Dartmouth must lead the way. There needs to be a zero tolerance policy for any violation of these modest efforts at reform of the ungodly, sexist, brutal and creepy Greek fraternity system.
Dartmouth must lead the way. There needs to be a zero tolerance policy for any violation of these modest efforts at reform of the ungodly, sexist, brutal and creepy Greek fraternity system.
9
Would not send my child to a school where the top educator doesn't understand that beer does the same ting as hard liquor
5
I wouldn't send my child to a school where the top educator makes such a decision knowing full well it will only make hard liquor more appealing to students and drive the drinking of same underground. No lives will be saved because of this step.
Or that all of it is illegal for underage students, most of the undergrad population. Enforcing the drinking laws would make a big difference.
As I read this, Dartmouth won't be stopping beer or wine drinking by underage students at Greek houses. Is that possibly true?
As I read this, Dartmouth won't be stopping beer or wine drinking by underage students at Greek houses. Is that possibly true?
Never quite understood or agreed with collective punishment. Why those who behave responsibly have to punished for the actions of those that don't. Couldn't those who don't behave simply be expelled? Would a professor's inappropriate conduct with a student result in all professors having added restrictions on their activities?
35
Yes, it would. Professors are routinely required to take a seminars on how to act professionally toward colleagues and students and how to report any sexual misconduct.
3
Perhaps it is because those who don't behave seem to represent a larger culture that accepts the abuse and vulgarity, that goads it on. Perhaps it is because those who act and those who cheer them on, or fail to protest, are equally problematic.
2
Professors are not college kids.
If they'd taken away my Jack Daniels when I was at Dartmouth I would have transferred within two weeks.
This is outrageous.
This is outrageous.
2
Well, Dartmouth is known as the home of the kids of the rich and famous. Probably not a good example.
2
Dartmouth would have been the better for it if they had taken away your Jack Daniels. It's a university, not a bar.
13
The only thing that's outrageous is your comment.
7
The best things that could be done are to require every Dartmouth student to complete an alcohol/drug abuse course - and a separate sex-ed course - in their freshman year. Prohibition is a ridiculous admin response - remember these are wealthy and pampered teens who are a reflection of their parents' own role-modelled behaviors.
3
Am I crazy or does the state prohibit (outlaw, criminalize) underage drinking? Why would the college think it is in any position to do anything different?
Good thing the admin didn't try prohibition, then. It's only banned liquor.
I am 52. I went to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute beginning in 1981 and stayed through the 1980s earning multiple degrees. Part of that success was because I knew from Day 1 in college not to join a social fraternity. They were an anachronism them and certainly so now. The post-graduate social networking that they provided is irrelevant now given Internet based social media and data mining. The only purpose social frats serve now is as a coda to immaturity and a way to waste Mummy and Daddy's tens of thousands of dollars per year partying instead of studying and earning their gift of a college education which would be treasured by those who cannot afford one.
21
Banning anything just drives it underground. Folks who want to drink, will drink, and will find ways of getting around the bans. At worst, you send all illicit drinking off-campus, but not the inherent risks of assault or self-injury. Nothing will change until we educate our kids about the joys and responsibility that comes with imbibing alcohol. That starts at home and starts when they're young, not en route to college.
1
As a Dartmouth alumnus I wish President Hanlon well, but I also know that the college has been attempting to "provide healthy social alternatives" to fraternities and other bad actors since before 1979, when I was a pea-green freshman.
14
To Times Readers:
I wish Dartmouth luck with this effort. But as other commentators have noted, drinking is imbued in the culture of college life, not least in "Hangover" NH.
College life over the last few decades has morphed into a country club experience, which is how some schools justify the $60K per year. There is also a consumer entitlement that students (and many of their parents) seem to bring to college life: "I'm the customer and I'm mostly right." And the national fraternity chapters tend to push back on social regulations. Hail frat brother, well met!
Colleges need strong leadership in this environment, and I applaud Dr. Hanlon for his firm stance on hard liquor on campus.
Submitted by ROGER LATZGO www.rogerlatzgo.com Germansville PA
I wish Dartmouth luck with this effort. But as other commentators have noted, drinking is imbued in the culture of college life, not least in "Hangover" NH.
College life over the last few decades has morphed into a country club experience, which is how some schools justify the $60K per year. There is also a consumer entitlement that students (and many of their parents) seem to bring to college life: "I'm the customer and I'm mostly right." And the national fraternity chapters tend to push back on social regulations. Hail frat brother, well met!
Colleges need strong leadership in this environment, and I applaud Dr. Hanlon for his firm stance on hard liquor on campus.
Submitted by ROGER LATZGO www.rogerlatzgo.com Germansville PA
26
Drinking is indeed a part of college life -- but in my experience most of it involves beer. The majority of the alcohol consumed by Dartmouth students is probably already found in beer, not liquor.
I seem to remember years ago George Steinbrenner saying it was ok for the Yankee manager Billy Martin to "just drink beer" and no hard liquor and it became the laughing joke of the sports world. Wake up folks alcohol is alcohol. Ban it and take a real stand.
10
" Ban it and take a real stand."
We did that during prohibition and look at how well that worked out.
We did that during prohibition and look at how well that worked out.
4
These are children, as their behavior makes so painfully clear. It is illegal NOW for kids under 21 to drink. The college has no choice but to enforce state laws.
As a graduate of Bowdoin, another college marooned in the far north, with eight long months of winter, I have the same reaction as to the University of Virginia story of society women banned by college administration of attending fraternity parties this weekend, political correctness run amuck.
Sorry, folks, ain't no way we codgers are gonna keep young men and women apart, and sure as heck ain't no way we're gonna keep young people and booze apart. It just ain't happening.
Keep repeating your platitudes. Sounds good at your boring parties where you're all sipping your drinks politely, no chug-a-lugging going on in your gentle parties.
Sorry, folks, ain't no way we codgers are gonna keep young men and women apart, and sure as heck ain't no way we're gonna keep young people and booze apart. It just ain't happening.
Keep repeating your platitudes. Sounds good at your boring parties where you're all sipping your drinks politely, no chug-a-lugging going on in your gentle parties.
5
I am also a graduate of Bowdoin, and I find your comment immature and embarrassing. People have been using the excuse that "it's always been like this" to rationalize and excuse any number of social ills. If these young adults cannot figure out how to have fun with beer and wine, then maybe they aren't emotionally ready to make appropriate use of what is now a $240K education. Colleges look the other way when it comes to student (illegal) drinking as a matter of policy, and if you are whining about how unfair it is that they are putting any limits at all on this activity, you sound like exactly the type of person who needed such regulation.
21
More thin skin, lots of competition between schools around enrollment, PR is full time.
It doesn't seem PC to encourage students to drink beer instead of liquor. And if "political correctness" is a term of approbation, why bother adding that it's run amok?
It isn't booze per se; it's the uppers and downers combined with booze which render these kids useless. Their parents spend lots of cash, and they are on their own now, experimenting with smack, crank, ecstacy, weed, oxycontin, peyote, PCP, ..and all the stuff that's news of print. Then Ivy Leaguers get preference over the general population when corporate America decides to hire someone. The way it's seen: They have clothes, cars, credit cards,..Their parents will make sure they could have room and board while they learn the ropes...They are members of country clubs, can mingle and schmooze with shmuks,....are acquainted with dining protocols, could small talk forever....It doesn't really matter if they are dumb, they are from the established status quo, one of us....Their parents are stock and bond holders, they have pledged money to their alma maters and political parties....They could dodge going to wars they've profited from...They are all americans, poster boys/gals for decaying empires.....swell
4
I do hope that Dartmouth and other universities do not imagine a ban on alcohol for minors will work. Banning alcohol for minors is precisely why individuals turn to hard alcohol - it is easier to conceal. I think a two-tier system of percentage of alcohol (beer and wine) for minors, higher for adults but not at undergraduate functions, regardless of age.
Don't be naive, don't keep your heads in the sand. Allow low percentages of alcohol for minors.
Please be realistic. STOP HARD ALCOHOL.
Don't be naive, don't keep your heads in the sand. Allow low percentages of alcohol for minors.
Please be realistic. STOP HARD ALCOHOL.
8
The problem is the Greek system, not alcohol.
2
Brilliant idea.
Let them drink all the "near beer" they want; it's only 3.2% alcohol.
They will get bloated and tired of going to the bathroom long before any intoxication can begin.
Let them drink all the "near beer" they want; it's only 3.2% alcohol.
They will get bloated and tired of going to the bathroom long before any intoxication can begin.
3
Standard knee-jerk reaction: punish everyone for the transgressions of a few.
How about the people responsible paying the price - all of it?
How about the people responsible paying the price - all of it?
6
I agree with those who are saying prohibition doesn't work. Darmouth's decision oddly mirrors the police state attitude seen more and more regularly in society at large. I think a better option might be for campuses to limit enrolement. Make it possible to only get there with the highest standards. Take away that privileged status of little rich kids getting their way.
Eliminate the riff raff and let them get work doing menial jobs for low wages instead. It won't solve the problem of abuse but it would limit the amount seen on college campuses.
Eliminate the riff raff and let them get work doing menial jobs for low wages instead. It won't solve the problem of abuse but it would limit the amount seen on college campuses.
4
Except that it's not prohibition.
1
fantastic and brave move. When I asked the Dean of Freshman Students at my daughters liberal arts college what kept him up at night he answered-3 things- alcohol, alcohol and alcohol. It wasn't the beer and wine which the Dean felt should be available to all students --IE lower the drinking age for that stuff. Its the hard liquor which is easier to hide and works faster that is killing kids.
10
Dartmouth alum. The campus location in rural New Hampshire, with harsh, dark cold winters and idyllic summers lends itself to Greek Life. In the winter, there is little to do if you do not ski. In the summer, there is almost too much to do with long summer days and perfect weather. I think it's great that the Greek system is being re-evaluated, but even if banned, I think something will fill the vacuum. It could be private eating clubs or whatever. But it will simply not be possible to eliminate the effect of Greek life entirely.
2
nothing to do all dark winter? you could always pick up a book and study. Or volunteer at a soup kitchen. Get a real life playboy. The real world is coming at ya!
24
Study? Study? In college? What a quaint notion.
7
This will most definitely solve all these problems! If history has taught us anything, it has taught us that prohibition is always a foolproof solution!
20
It's not a prohibition of alcohol, just hard alcohol. It's an encouragement to drink beer when drinking.
By the time that Correctness has finished with colleges, they should be similar enough to seminaries that all college graduates should be qualified as priests.
5
Ethanol is ethanol. As a member of a college town volunteer fire department I can tell you college students get transported to hospital for drinking beer as of as they do for drinking the "hard stuff."
76
should read "as much as they do . . ."
At the Oktoberfest people also get transported to the medical facilities for drinking too much beer but all they do there is to put them on a bed to prevent accidents when they try to get home. There is no way that you can drink so much beer that without medical treatment it gets dangerous.
2
Banning hard liquor? Like people don't get drunk on beer and wine!
How about all colleges that receive any form of federal funding (which is probably every college) be required to be an alcohol-free campus? If we make it a national policy, then everyone is off the hook from social pressure.
The vast majority of the students are under age anyway.
The vast majority of the sexual assaults involve drinking.
The vast majority of the remaining acts of violence involve drinking.
The vast majority of the on campus suicides involve drinking.
The human brain is not fully developed until around age 25.
And we parents, myself included, are expected pay six figures to expose our beautiful children to what?
And how is it thousands of institutions of so called 'greater' learning can be so dumb?
The common denominator to most of the serious troubles on college campuses is alcohol. Let's stop pretending that the solution doesn't lie with us, as adults, parents, and taxpayers. Let's stop with analyzing this issue that is a national crisis, and let's fix it in five minutes flat.
Peace - John
How about all colleges that receive any form of federal funding (which is probably every college) be required to be an alcohol-free campus? If we make it a national policy, then everyone is off the hook from social pressure.
The vast majority of the students are under age anyway.
The vast majority of the sexual assaults involve drinking.
The vast majority of the remaining acts of violence involve drinking.
The vast majority of the on campus suicides involve drinking.
The human brain is not fully developed until around age 25.
And we parents, myself included, are expected pay six figures to expose our beautiful children to what?
And how is it thousands of institutions of so called 'greater' learning can be so dumb?
The common denominator to most of the serious troubles on college campuses is alcohol. Let's stop pretending that the solution doesn't lie with us, as adults, parents, and taxpayers. Let's stop with analyzing this issue that is a national crisis, and let's fix it in five minutes flat.
Peace - John
50
I'm 20, in a fraternity. My school has a dry campus. The state has a law against me drinking. Guess how many times that has stopped me from drinking, buying, or transporting alcohol? Zero. The answer is zero. The laws have no bearing on my actions because those laws are unenforceable. Good luck fixing the problem in 5 minutes with a command and control approach! Let me know how it goes!
2
Hear! Hear!
11
Bravo.
The common denominator is almost always alcohol intoxication.
A physician MD
The common denominator is almost always alcohol intoxication.
A physician MD
49
A better plan would be to lower drinking age to 18, allowing teens to introduce themselves to alcohol more incrementally and responsibly. This will only put hard liquor behind a few more closed doors.
21
or even 16
1
You mean, so that high school students can legally buy alcohol? A lower drinking age means that a senior in high school can buy booze for a freshman. I don't get the idea that earlier exposure results in more responsibility. What 18 year old is going to "incrementally and responsibly" introduce himself to alcohol? Absurd. It means, as far as I can see, that young people's brains not yet fully developed will be more likely to be damaged by exposure to alcohol. This seems obvious to me.
14
An 18 year old (or younger) person who grows up in a family that treats alcohol with respect and as an occasional accompaniment to food or celebrations will have an entirely different attitude. Look at certain European countries where binge drinking is a rarity. Banning it is useless...
3
I like this idea and would take it a step further. No alcohol above 7%. Shooters and even wine can get you drunk too quick.
Thinking of my own misspent youth (and last New Years) any time I over imbibed to the point of throwing up usually involved the loss of my ability to pace myself with drinks like beer.
Thinking of my own misspent youth (and last New Years) any time I over imbibed to the point of throwing up usually involved the loss of my ability to pace myself with drinks like beer.
7
Excellent. Pretty much every time I comment on this subject I write if you want to cut down on sexual assault on campus ban alcohol. Otherwise you are not serious. Look at Mark Dobias' comment below. Of course, of course. Good for Stanford. There will still be plenty of kids who want to go there.
31
Right on. Alcohol is the main problem. I, for some misguided reason, expect more from the women with regard to smoking and drinking. The female students have to be aware of what happens when others have over imbibed. Cool it gals and be in control.
Except, make that good for Dartmouth. Oops.
This is a smart move. There is nothing outrageous about limiting access to hard liquor on college campuses.
What is outrageous is the assumption that a college social life must involve drinking to the point of passing out on a regular basis.
What is outrageous is the assumption that a college social life must involve drinking to the point of passing out on a regular basis.
127
The Greeks control all social life? Well, that's a recipe for problems, hard liquor or no hard liquor.
It seems almost like mirror of the corporate duopolies: you have fun through the major players, on their terms, or you don't have fun at all.
It seems almost like mirror of the corporate duopolies: you have fun through the major players, on their terms, or you don't have fun at all.
52
You wonder if it will be possible for Fraternities and Sororities to find 2 faculty advisers each when, historically, the faculty has been fairly open in its distaste for the Greek system. Or is this requirement the catch in an Trojan Horse plan to ultimately undo the Greek system if it cannot comply.
1
I was also pondering the requirement of having two faculty advisors for each fraternity and sorority. Let's face it, most faculty members do not want this kind of responsibility. Also, will there be any training provided to the faculty advisors regarding alcohol abuse and sexual assault?
And how do we define an "active faculty advisor?" When I was in a sorority (almost thirty years ago) we had a faculty advisor - a nice gentleman from the History Department. We hosted him for dinner and conversation at our house once or twice a semester and everyone knew to be on their best behavior.
And how do we define an "active faculty advisor?" When I was in a sorority (almost thirty years ago) we had a faculty advisor - a nice gentleman from the History Department. We hosted him for dinner and conversation at our house once or twice a semester and everyone knew to be on their best behavior.
1
What about banning sex and mandating bedtime stories? We must substitute something for the hole that will be left behind in these adults' lives. How about cookies and milk? Let's infantilize our future leaders as much as possible. That way they will shutdown a city and ban car traffic if we can expect any more than an inch of snow. Kids today want to stay home and cry when things are tough or decisions have to be made.
15
Many of our "future leaders" are currently getting blind drunk every weekend. How does limiting their ability to do this fall into the category of infantilization.
To me, it's the other way around.
To me, it's the other way around.
86
Gee, you wouldn't happen to be a conservative, would you?
And you wouldn't happen to think that all the folks who'd like to see less drinking and sexual assault on college campuses liberals, would you?
I don't think the reality is that black and white.
And you wouldn't happen to think that all the folks who'd like to see less drinking and sexual assault on college campuses liberals, would you?
I don't think the reality is that black and white.
3
That's called argument ad hominem.
I think it is banned at Dartmouth, too.
I think it is banned at Dartmouth, too.
1
To quote James McMurtry: "whiskey don't make liars, it just makes fools". The issue here isn't alcohol but the fact that the kids coming to college these days seem to have received no demonstration or expectation from their parents of moral or ethical behavior. What kind of "training" do you need to prevent sexual assault? It's wrong; everyone knows it's wrong; you don't do it. I guess this is the result of being raised on a diet restricted to self-esteem instead of personal responsibility.
82
The government has gotten out of the virtue business, so have the secondary schools and colleges -- on today's campuses the only real sin is saying something to which someone or some group takes offense. The idea that a free, democratic, self-governing society requires self-governing citizens seems to have gotten lost. One way to teach character would be to require that everyone in high school and first year college focus on the classics -- oops, cannot do that because they were all written by dead white men and Miss Jane Austen! Moreover, they aren't multi-cultural.
2
Kudos to Dr. Hanlon for having the gumption to make a wise decision!
42
Can they please ban illegal drug use in their next step, please?
9
As if they haven't.
Prohibition just doesn't work very well.
Prohibition just doesn't work very well.
6
Josh, they have to actually enforce the laws we have on the books. Illegal drugs are illegal everywhere. The problem is that the same drugs in the hands of a young black man will get him arrested (or worse) but won't even get a UMC college student a slap on the wrist.
2
The "dormitory cluster" solution seems a little radical for what is still a small enough undergraduate population to avoid such balkanization, but the infusion of grad student and faculty residents is all to the good. I regret the arbitrary radical prohibition of alcohol because the college could have chosen to cultivate its restrained appreciation instead, a genuinely valuable pedagogic goal. This, I hope, will not be lost in the new "social settings" to evolve in time. But everyone interested in the well-being of American higher education has an interest in wishing this great college the best.
I work at a public university that has a "college system" that comes down, largely, to largely separating dormitory clusters out by general course of study or other standards, along with some core courses unique to the college. It's by no means uniform that you live with "your" college, but the students seem to like it, and numerous campus groups have been birthed by one college or another (though all can attend). It is true that our undergrad enrollment is four times that of Dartmouth.
1
That's a lot of word salad.
3
The dorms have been "clustered" there for decades.
1
Isn't the legal drinking age in NH 21? Why is it any different at Dartmouth? Alcohol is the most destructive drug in our society, especially so for young people whose brains have not matured. Why has it taken colleges so long to figure this out? Social drinking is one thing, but binge drinking is nothing but alcohol poisoning. For too long colleges have turned a blind eye to the booze-infused fraternity culture. This has to stop.
95
How old do you think most college juniors and seniors are?
2
Please cite one example of prohibition working. Making alcohol a symbol of adulthood is a major mistake. Introduce it slowly at a younger age and make drinking legal at 18 in restaurants and bars but not in stores. Supervised drinking might work, what is done now does not.
I prosecuted and defended about a half dozen campus sexual assault cases. Without exception, liquor was involved. Captain Morgan was the aider and abettor in over half of the cases.
139
I wonder if their sexual assault amnesty policies will be amended to indicate a woman claiming sexual assault can get amnesty for underaged drinking only if she has been confining her drinking to beer and wine? You know that won't happen. Does the public know that underaged college drinkers generally get a "get out of jail free" card when they say they have been sexually assaulted?
Mark, you and some other posters here (a few MDs and EMTs) are basing your opinions on your actual experiences and upon facts. Some others, however, base their logic on "kids will be kids", "old enough to vote, old enough to get drunk", "prohibition doesn't work", "you're taking the fun out of college", etc.
Using expert experience and facts won't work on that crowd.
Using expert experience and facts won't work on that crowd.
8
I'm not surprised. Sadly, educators are not as proactive as they need to be about instructing young people on the subject of alcohol. That needs to start early on and continue right through college. Not only might the result mean fewer sexual assaults, it's possible that fewer alum will become alcoholics.
1
Banning Liquor. lol. Because prohibition, and having a legal drinking age have also worked so well.
52
Kick out a few kids, show you're serious, and watch the difference.
They can still get hammered on beer and wine; but it takes longer to get stupid. That make a difference in a lot of situations.
They can still get hammered on beer and wine; but it takes longer to get stupid. That make a difference in a lot of situations.
77
I believe you are referring to those who do not get caught. Such bans are very effective at punishing the students who do get caught. None of them are saying lol, not even the ones who got off with hefty penalties instead of expulsion or paid dearly for a lawyer. Keep laughing.
5
It will work, Arvand. It's not the whole U.S., just a campus. My daughter went to a dry campus for a year. She said for the most part it was complied worked. Plenty of places have drinking bans and it works.
19