Raised catholic in the 1950s my mother took me aside on my wedding day to tell me "the pope doesn't support your family - so do what you please"
43
No surprise from a church built on sexism and patriarchy. Women and children are the chattel property of males. Period.
23
Here, here. Thank you, Mr. Egan. I am the oldest of 6. After the sixth, my mother's doctor told her if she had another it would kill her. My father got a vasectomy. He had long been ready to do that, as PROVIDING for that many kids was already killing him. But beyond that, my mother was also absolutely emotionally and psychology unfit for raising that many kids, a factor the Catholic church seemed to have never considered as an important factor in considering family size. My mother's own father had begged her to stop when she had the fourth. When I was 16, my mother told me she "was paying now for beliefs she no longer held." My youngest brother was three at that point. NONE of us are practicing Catholics now, and feel we have had to, each in our own way, struggle to overcome the serious handicaps of a chaotic and out-of-control childhood. However, Pope Francis gets a lot of amazed cheers and attention in our various households...
35
how can any but the most affluent afford 6,7,8 or more children. they cannot.
13
Margaret Sanger - the founder of the organization that became Planned Parenthood - was inspired by the horrors her mother went through. Her mom, had 18 pregnancies in 22 years (with 11 live births) before dying at the age of 49. Sanger was the sixth of the 11 children, and spent much of her youth assisting with household chores and caring for her younger siblings.
37
Catholic officials advocating for pro-natalist policies in the 21st century should either be receiving psychiatric help or be incarcerated for crimes against humanity.
23
Rick Santorum - just what does that man do for a living other than run for president every four years? Who pays his insurance? I would like answers to that. As to the rest of the article the best line was when his mom decided no man should make personal decisions for women they are not married to.
20
It is evident to me that since God/Nature determined the human child is best served by being carried inside the mother until birth, then God must have decided the mother is to have total control over her unborn child. She and she alone.
22
My stalwart Roman Catholic mother-in-law brooked no nonsense from the Church's male hierarchy, be he priest, monsignor, bishop or Pope. After three miscarriages, she bore an average of one child per year for six years and called it good. Four years later, and ten months after a particularly lively New Year's Party, she gave birth to her seventh and last, my husband. For her 80th birthday, she received a banner of collected Mom-isms. My favorite: "The Pope is a celibate male in a faraway land."
21
I love your mother. Most of the way through the article I was saying, Why be "in tears?" Of course I understand why she was, but I wanted her to make her own decision. And she did. Do we sense a slight though seismic shift in the Congress, lately, towards a similar kind of reason? I can only hope.
11
The world has changed: there are simply too many people struggling too keep food on the table and their children (and the planet) healthy. God made planet Earth: God wants it to be a great place to live. If people limit the number of children they have, the world will be a more safe and happy place. DUH!
18
"Papal Infallibility" is a poison pill foisted on catholicism by the devil in the nineteenth century via an archaic Italian tortoise shell- the vatican.
Now we see a curious instance where the curia speaks strongly with one voice, and is completely ignored by those outside the curia who compose-- what 95% of the mystical body?
Where is the church, in those who claim the authority to speak in its name, or in those who ARE the body?
Now we see a curious instance where the curia speaks strongly with one voice, and is completely ignored by those outside the curia who compose-- what 95% of the mystical body?
Where is the church, in those who claim the authority to speak in its name, or in those who ARE the body?
9
I don't have a problem with the Catholic ban on contraception, for Catholics. But then I also believe that if you don't like the rules of the club, you should leave the club.
8
It's hard not to simply shake your head and dismiss the Catholic Church, in terms of this issue, at least, as a medieval throw-back; it boggles the mind, and, as the author points out, contributes deleterious effects to individuals, societies, and the planet. And the arrogance of celibate men who think they speak for God is breathtaking. However, the idea that the church or theology should stay out of the sexual lives of people is a bit too broad to be helpful. We (Americans, especially) need, more than ever, a progressive, egalitarian, compassionate sexual ethic. We recognize the damage done by past views, usually promulgated and supported by religion; but we're hopelessly confused about sex, and have a dysfunctional relationship with it, such that we end up hurting others and ourselves in different ways. Ironically, perhaps, one of the best treatments of sexual ethics comes from a Catholic - Margaret Farley - whose book "Just Sex" develops an approach based on recognizing the full humanity of others (same or other sex), and recognizes the way it impacts communities as well as individuals. It makes it all the more infuriating that the Catholic Church denies women equality in church leadership. (I could also take issue, as others have, with the statement that the church "does well" in larger dogmatic questions - you mean its treatment of Jews, exclusive claim to truth, and support of wars and conquest?). But thank you for another fine column.
11
While I generally agree with this column, I'm not sure I agree with the statement:
Religions are at their best when they deal with the theological realm or big global issues.
I believe spirituality, and by extension religion, should be an intensely personal affair that focus on crafting the self into a moral being and on treating others, whether neighbors or strangers, as one would wish to be treated.
In short: Religion is at its best when it focuses on humility and empathy.
Even better when it uses charitable behavior (deeds) and rational arguments (not creeds!) to build a community of followers who have made a conscious choice and personal commitment, at its worst when it attempts to impose its will generally on society (on any subject!) through force, coercion, or early childhood indoctrination.
Religions are at their best when they deal with the theological realm or big global issues.
I believe spirituality, and by extension religion, should be an intensely personal affair that focus on crafting the self into a moral being and on treating others, whether neighbors or strangers, as one would wish to be treated.
In short: Religion is at its best when it focuses on humility and empathy.
Even better when it uses charitable behavior (deeds) and rational arguments (not creeds!) to build a community of followers who have made a conscious choice and personal commitment, at its worst when it attempts to impose its will generally on society (on any subject!) through force, coercion, or early childhood indoctrination.
20
As one of seven siblings (in eleven years) from a practicing Catholic family, I may be an exception. We were all welcomed, loved, nourished and raised to go forward in the world on our own.
One of the happiest days of the year is when we get together for our annual dinner and reminisce about the benefits of growing up in a large, close family.
One of the happiest days of the year is when we get together for our annual dinner and reminisce about the benefits of growing up in a large, close family.
10
And I'm the oldest of eight and my brothers and sisters dislike each other so much that years go by with no contact. We lived in poverty, none graduated from high school (although some of us did well despite it). The next generation with a couple of exceptions doesn't know each other and like some in this generation is well acquainted with the welfare and penal systems. My wife was the oldest of five. How many children did we have? ONE!
24
Why in the world does any educated, thinking person belong to an institution that fails to excommunicate predatory child rapist priests? The pedophiles are elevated, forgiven, and embraced, but God-fearing, believing women are condemned for contraception. It adds up to hating and destroying women's lives, and permitting children's lives to be destroyed.
As an atheist, I resent being forced to support the unwanted children who are abandoned or orphaned due to their parents' inability to obtain and use birth control. I resent my tax dollars going to support the evil institution responsible, so that that Church can operate its injustices tax-free. It is not just child-bearing victims of the lies of that Church who need to rebel, it is all of us who support and condone it with our tax dollars.
As an atheist, I resent being forced to support the unwanted children who are abandoned or orphaned due to their parents' inability to obtain and use birth control. I resent my tax dollars going to support the evil institution responsible, so that that Church can operate its injustices tax-free. It is not just child-bearing victims of the lies of that Church who need to rebel, it is all of us who support and condone it with our tax dollars.
38
First of all, God is unknowable. Secondly, it may be true that encouragement to breed may have been the only way Vatican minds could conceive wealth, especially as their influence widened. Lastly, worldwide power may have been an irresistable temptation, but it
prompts opposition.
prompts opposition.
4
I guess in which part of the world you are a Catholic. In India, where 10% of the population are Catholic (yes, a few Protestants are present) in a population of a billion, their numbers make a great % of the World Catholics. However, the Catholics have the least children per family. Devout Catholics that they are I am pretty sure they are not following the rhythm method or abstinence. They however receive their communion in Church. The Pope's off the cuff remark of "rabbits" could'nt be further from the truth. He was coming back from a trip in the,'Philippines" remember? Seeing the extreme poverty and the long broods in families was untenable, and he was talking out of the box, out of all the medieval Catholic Church Dogma.
5
"Today, some people with big families have taken offense at the pope’s comments. Rick Santorum, a Catholic father of seven with a persistently medieval worldview, questioned what the pope was trying to accomplish."
He just may have in mind a world with a sustainable population. We already have a world population that strains the environment, and the capacity to feed it and provide meaningful employment. When you boil it down, the lack of good paying jobs, is due to an overabundance of people wanting those jobs. And employers who play one against the other to get the least cost.
Let's hope and pray that Pope Francis lives long enough to install a critical mass of progressive bishops, so that church doctrine can leave the middle ages behind and evolve to address the needs of today and tomorrow.
He just may have in mind a world with a sustainable population. We already have a world population that strains the environment, and the capacity to feed it and provide meaningful employment. When you boil it down, the lack of good paying jobs, is due to an overabundance of people wanting those jobs. And employers who play one against the other to get the least cost.
Let's hope and pray that Pope Francis lives long enough to install a critical mass of progressive bishops, so that church doctrine can leave the middle ages behind and evolve to address the needs of today and tomorrow.
24
What is needed at the present time is a new enthusiasm, a new joy and serenity of mind in the unreserved acceptance by all of the entire Christian faith, without forfeiting that accuracy and precision in its presentation which characterized the proceedings of the Council of Trent and the First Vatican Council. What is needed, and what everyone imbued with a truly Christian, Catholic and apostolic spirit craves today, is that this doctrine shall be more widely known, more deeply understood, and more penetrating in its effects on men's moral lives. What is needed is that this certain and immutable doctrine, to which the faithful owe obedience, be studied afresh and reformulated in contemporary terms. For this deposit of faith, or truths which are contained in our time-honored teaching is one thing; the manner in which these truths are set forth (with their meaning preserved intact) is something else. Roncalli, Angelo Giuseppe, "Opening address", Second Vatican Council, Rome, IT.
The second Vatican Council unfortunately never fully fulfilled Pope John XXIII's mission and vision due to his early demise. Pope Francis appears to be a sensible and reasonable leader. My hope would be that Pope Francis would convene a Third Vatican Council to reformulate Catholic church dogma and teachings for contemporary, modern society. Church dogma on sexual morality is especially hurtful to women.
The second Vatican Council unfortunately never fully fulfilled Pope John XXIII's mission and vision due to his early demise. Pope Francis appears to be a sensible and reasonable leader. My hope would be that Pope Francis would convene a Third Vatican Council to reformulate Catholic church dogma and teachings for contemporary, modern society. Church dogma on sexual morality is especially hurtful to women.
5
I've never understood the difference between the rhythm method and contraception. Philosophically, there is no difference. Both stop the sperm, one is just more clumsy and inefficient.
11
The celibate fathers like a woman to take a risk if she is going to be so impure as to have sex (the role model for women is the eternal virgin (Mary), who, though married, never had sex - in Catholic Church teaching). The teaching is that each act of "procreation" should carry the risk of pregnancy. Hence the old joke: what do you call couples who practice rhythm? Answer: Parents.
23
Good point Anne-Marie, and the rhythm method is controlled by the man, whereas the pill and others the women decides--making the church's stance grossly misogynistic and offensive.
25
Notice something, Mr. Egan: your mother was subject to no external compulsion. She was subject to moral and religious exhortation. She ignored it, as was her right. I assume that your dad probably weighed in, too.
The Catholic Church today, like the other Christian churches, is a voluntary organization. The fact that it has strong teachings, including about eternal consequences of actions, doesn't change that one bit. In this way, it is very much like the early church, before Constantine.
So why be mad at any Pope, or be delighted by any Pope, unless one is a member of the voluntary organization? I am not a Catholic, although I am highly sympathetic to Catholicism. But I'm always fascinated by the preoccupation with the Church by those who are not Catholics, including those who once were but are no longer. They have left because they do not believe. If they don't believe, why do they care, really?
Because they want to see the influence of the Church keep dying away. They are, in the final analysis, enemies of the Church. And Pope Francis, in the end, is going to disappoint them; guaranteed.
The Catholic Church today, like the other Christian churches, is a voluntary organization. The fact that it has strong teachings, including about eternal consequences of actions, doesn't change that one bit. In this way, it is very much like the early church, before Constantine.
So why be mad at any Pope, or be delighted by any Pope, unless one is a member of the voluntary organization? I am not a Catholic, although I am highly sympathetic to Catholicism. But I'm always fascinated by the preoccupation with the Church by those who are not Catholics, including those who once were but are no longer. They have left because they do not believe. If they don't believe, why do they care, really?
Because they want to see the influence of the Church keep dying away. They are, in the final analysis, enemies of the Church. And Pope Francis, in the end, is going to disappoint them; guaranteed.
4
It is very easy for an outsider to suggest that a religion is voluntary. For those who are indoctrinated in a faith and who are surrounded by others indoctrinated and perhaps subserviently compliant to that faith, it is very difficult to leave a faith. There are more than a handful of women raised Catholic whose lives were destroyed by the shame based neurological wiring received at the hands of the church and church laity. It is in the interest of humanity that many of us choose to pay close attention to what goes on in the church and what the church says. And think about it, isn't it a big criticism of moderate Muslims - that they don't speak up enough? The issues are the same.
25
"If they don't believe, why do they care, really?" Well, as a nonbeliever in any religion, I care when and because religious believers undertake to impose their beliefs on me in law or in their interpretation of law (e.g., SCOTUS). I have nothing against believers in any religion, though I don't envy their false beliefs and delusions. But when they try to impose their views on others in law, there's only one answer, "No!."
26
"They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger."
--Matthew 23:4
Jesus despised the attitude of religious leaders whose pious expectations of others far exceeded what they were willing to do themselves.
--Matthew 23:4
Jesus despised the attitude of religious leaders whose pious expectations of others far exceeded what they were willing to do themselves.
41
I was the fifth and final chapter in my parents' reproductive career. My mom was 45, my dad 52. Both were strongly advised by her doctors not to have me. She almost died carrying me and again in the delivery room. My birth altered the trajectory of their lives, demanding that my father forego retirement. He worked until the day he died because he still had a child in high school. My mother went back to work as soon as I entered grade school. Resources that would have been devoted to my brothers and sisters college expenses were redirected to me. My family loved me and I never "got" that I was anything but their pride and joy. But a calculated appraisal of the effect of my birth on my family as a whole could only be seen as a net negative.
We all understand the unsustainable strain placed on parents, children, education and welfare systems, food production and water supplies, even on our planet as a whole, by unfettered human reproduction. Every newly elected pope over the last century has had the opportunity to radically improve the lives of billions around the world by merely condoning the use of artificial birth control. Yet before the white smoke even clears, each has reaffirmed God's displeasure with men and women controlling their own reproductive lives.
On these men and on the dogma that demands of its adherents unswerving devotion and litters of new followers rests the responsibility for a great share of the misery in our world.
We all understand the unsustainable strain placed on parents, children, education and welfare systems, food production and water supplies, even on our planet as a whole, by unfettered human reproduction. Every newly elected pope over the last century has had the opportunity to radically improve the lives of billions around the world by merely condoning the use of artificial birth control. Yet before the white smoke even clears, each has reaffirmed God's displeasure with men and women controlling their own reproductive lives.
On these men and on the dogma that demands of its adherents unswerving devotion and litters of new followers rests the responsibility for a great share of the misery in our world.
48
When my parents' sixth child was born, my best childhood friend informed me that her mother said my parents were wrong to have another child they couldn't afford. I began to notice that we were poor. I wanted a nicer house, new shoes, and to be an "onlychildbrat" (we thought that was one word, said with envy). That was one set of wants. My other set of wants was for each sibling to remain healthy, safe (nearly lost one when hit by a truck), and close by. Ah, life. In later years, my parents held each of our infants, and marveled at their beautifully formed tiny bits (e.g., fingernails) as though they'd never before seen anything so amazing. Today we tend to have fewer children, more stuff, and less wonder. More choices though.
11
There are plenty of other gods to worship other than the catholic one.
Seems like all the gods exist or none of them exist. Claiming that only one God exists isn't rational and limits the religious impulse.
Not sure about the respective teachings regarding uterus utility but shop around, find the one that works best for your particular circumstances. You deserve the god you want.
Here's a bakers' dozen to get you started.
Quetzalcoatl
Anu
Shamash
Ceridwen
Pangu
Osiris
Zeus
Brahma
Amaterasu
Kukulcan
Odin
Yahweh
Allah
If none of these seem right for you consider joining us in The Church of the Unemployed, our congregation is blossoming across America and beyond. Donations not required.
Seems like all the gods exist or none of them exist. Claiming that only one God exists isn't rational and limits the religious impulse.
Not sure about the respective teachings regarding uterus utility but shop around, find the one that works best for your particular circumstances. You deserve the god you want.
Here's a bakers' dozen to get you started.
Quetzalcoatl
Anu
Shamash
Ceridwen
Pangu
Osiris
Zeus
Brahma
Amaterasu
Kukulcan
Odin
Yahweh
Allah
If none of these seem right for you consider joining us in The Church of the Unemployed, our congregation is blossoming across America and beyond. Donations not required.
20
To paraphrase Richard Dawkins, we're all atheists in regard to 99% of the gods that humankind has ever worshiped.
37
I remember back in the 60's overhearing some adult males telling a joke about a baby emerging from the womb singing " I got rhythm" and all laughing hardily.
I was mystified at the time and asked my mother what they meant. She explained clearly and gently how some women weren't allowed to limit the number of children they had ( except by using the highly ineffective "rythym" method) due to religious beliefs and that their lives were often difficult because of the size of their families. She told me it was to help all women in this situation that she sent a check to Planned Parenthood" every year. I never forgot that conversation.
I was mystified at the time and asked my mother what they meant. She explained clearly and gently how some women weren't allowed to limit the number of children they had ( except by using the highly ineffective "rythym" method) due to religious beliefs and that their lives were often difficult because of the size of their families. She told me it was to help all women in this situation that she sent a check to Planned Parenthood" every year. I never forgot that conversation.
40
My mom, mother of six, who has just passed, had a similar experience and spent the rest of her life building a philosophy that allowed her to believe in God without needing the church. One of our favorite "mom-isms" is:
“Why, oh, why, do people (...good people) live like they own God?"
“Why, oh, why, do people (...good people) live like they own God?"
91
Religions are at their best when they don't exist or at the minimum keep their noses out of other peoples business.
14
Rick Santorum needs to forget his leadership aspirations and keep his medieval worldview at home.
25
Pope Francis is standing on a precipice when it comes to procreation.I am a non Catholic but I have great respect for him as a humanist first & a Catholic Second.unfortunately, he is faced with a conservative church which will not change their positions on issues such as procreation. The Catholic religion is not alone in these unrealistic views, Orthodox Judaism & Islam are also out of touch with reality when it comes to issues like procreation, gay rights, Birth Control & anything that pertains to sex.
Until these groups evolve which will never happen in my lifetime, this crowded world may reach a point when land & power will take a back seat to Bread & Water.
Until these groups evolve which will never happen in my lifetime, this crowded world may reach a point when land & power will take a back seat to Bread & Water.
6
funny they are all run by men who will never get to experience the pregnancy and childbirth that women go through. They need to shut up.
11
Yet, Catholic leaders, still, rail against "the culture of contraception." (I read this all the time in Catholic New York.) Catholics and other fundamentalists still -- today -- are trying to outlaw contraception (or make it as difficult as possible to get) as well as abortion, and, of course, sex education. And these people want ALL OF US to obey them!
21
If what you say is true, Rick Santorum should be excommunicated. Catholics believe the pope is infallible, so if the pope says something that contradicts a prior pope, it means God has changed his mind. After all, the only reason Catholics believe they need to have large families is because some previous pope said it was God's will.
8
Yes, but it's all just words unless he is willing to take concrete steps to church's dogma.
1
Wow! Almost every comment is supportive! The jury is in and the outcome quite clear.
10
This Pope is a Jesuit, with a Jesuit's incisive intelligence, and the heart of a Franciscan. What he might accomplish could astonish (and improve) the world, should he be granted a long enough life. That being said, I, for one, am very glad that he lives in community and dines the same way.
16
The fetus fetish diminishes the living for the potential. Quantity triumphs over quality. Neither rabbits nor rebels the clergy are parasites. Faith is the antithesis of reason and logic and natural law. There was a time when all we had was myth and superstition and money and power. Italy has the lowest unatural birth rate in Europe. And this Pope is the first generation Argentine born son of Italian immigrants. How many "rabbits" did Pope Francis have in his hole?
4
There is an easy solution. Don’t buy into any religion or if you do then follow it as an individual and not in any organized way.
7
As the oldest of four boys in a strong Catholic family, I've always wondered how my parents managed the three years between their wedding and my birth in the mid-1930's; one can only surmise. As a husband and father of four my wife and I agonized what to do as our rhythmic relationship soured--no help from the Church there!
Thanks, Mike B and others who have focused on our true status as creatures of God--and "co-creators." Of course conscience has to be part of our sexual humanity! Why the Catholic Church continues to deny this as part of intelligent family planning is beyond me. We are not rabbits.
Thanks, Mike B and others who have focused on our true status as creatures of God--and "co-creators." Of course conscience has to be part of our sexual humanity! Why the Catholic Church continues to deny this as part of intelligent family planning is beyond me. We are not rabbits.
9
Earl Butz (hardly my favorite politician in his day) was fired, not for his very offensive remarks about African Americans, but for his very cogent comment on a Papal Encyclical against birth control. He said,
"He no playa da game, he no maka da rules."
I think it was the mock Italian accent that lost him his job rather than the content of his remark. His comment was spot on.
Thank you for this excellent column.
"He no playa da game, he no maka da rules."
I think it was the mock Italian accent that lost him his job rather than the content of his remark. His comment was spot on.
Thank you for this excellent column.
115
what I (vaguely) remember is that Paul VI was about to allow birth control when Cardinal Ottovani reminded Paul that Pius XI ruled against birth control in 1931 and that settled the issue for all time. Apparently there is no theological reset button.
7
Rick Santorum, America's scold, the Republican party's id and super ego, wants to be your president.
16
A Franciscan Jesuit?
TE please clarify: Did the Catholic Church officially oppose your mother having a hysterectomy which was medically necessary for her health? My understanding of Catholic doctrine is that tubal ligations and vasectomies are forbidden, as their purpose is to prevent pregnancy. A hysterectomy is allowed as long as the goal is to resolve a severe medical problem even though the (perhaps unintended ) consequence is infertility.
A lot of people go through life with a deep need to have an authority tell them what to do. They find the idea of having to make moral decisions on their own frightening. This fear of being unmoored from authority leads to a lot of troubles in this world, but there you are.
14
Yet the parable of the talents tells them that hiding behind the comfort of authority will not excuse their lack of personal responsibility in the final judgment. That is, we can expect to see a "No Whining" sign at the pearly gates. If you know better, do better; God gave you the brains. It's a parable even an atheist can appreciate!
1
"The doctor said stop. The cleric said shame if you do."
Same thing happened to my 50 year old mother. During birth she had the first of several heart attacks that ended her life. She left that last kid to grow up without a mother at at 11 by an overwhelmed father with bad coping skills.
Thanks Monsignor Fitzgerald. Hope you are enjoying your retirement in a very, very, hot place.
Same thing happened to my 50 year old mother. During birth she had the first of several heart attacks that ended her life. She left that last kid to grow up without a mother at at 11 by an overwhelmed father with bad coping skills.
Thanks Monsignor Fitzgerald. Hope you are enjoying your retirement in a very, very, hot place.
160
Reality? Religious or not, we ALL know that there is more to reality than what we see with our eyes. We have all seen the destructive toll that sex without meaning has brought to our families and world. Sex has a dual purpose: pleasure and joy for the couple and procreation. Like all healthy ways to live, "all things in moderation."
2
As a good Catholic, my mother married at 18, had four children and a miscarriage in six years, and finally wised up. At 12, I figured out the church's stance on women when the bishop told me that no, girls could not serve priests at the altar because, well, they're girls. 'Nuf said.
16
Rick Santorum is a loser, couldn't even win re-election in his own state. His comments on anything are irrelevant.............
22
I wish...
8
From a global perspective, up until 200 years ago, 8 of 10 children died of disease or starvation. So birth control wasn't necessary, and the fact that a woman could have 40 years of fertility X 12 months = 480 opportunities for baby-making was human biology's method to ensure our survival. Now that we have cured malaria and other diseases, and 9 out of 10 children survive, we human beings need to adapt. And that means the religious leaders need to adapt also. The holy books were written by humans anyway----just change the interpretation from "Go forth and Multiply", to "protect the planet, and have fewer children."
21
Even in the 1950's many Catholic families stopped at five children, with or without the blessings of their parish priest. Early hysterectomies were common, as was abstinence which ruined many a good marriage. Many men took mistresses and practiced birth control.
When I became engaged in 1968, my very pious Catholic mother literally dragged to to the doctor to get a birth control pill prescription. She had had five children, none of whom she really wanted, to fulfill her duty as a devout Catholic but was determined that I not repeat that obligation.
When I became engaged in 1968, my very pious Catholic mother literally dragged to to the doctor to get a birth control pill prescription. She had had five children, none of whom she really wanted, to fulfill her duty as a devout Catholic but was determined that I not repeat that obligation.
23
On Christmas Eves I got to play with my cousins at Grandma's house. There were about 50 of us cousins; my grandmother gave birth to 13, 11 of whom have lived into ripe old age. (My mother was 98 when she died.) Most of my aunts and uncles had families from 4 to 6 kids. Good Catholics, all.
My father listened to the bishops who told him it was a sin to vote for candidates who supported a woman's right to choose. He voted for Reagan and Bush the elder because they said they were against abortion. They were, however, for war and the death penalty and taking from the poor to give to the rich. But that was OK with the bishops, killing innocent Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Palestinians, and others was OK, killing innocent unborn fetuses was not.
In the last 35 years we have seen epidemics of homelessness, racial disparities, income inequalities, unfunded and unnecessary wars. All because the bishops told their flocks that voting for democrats was a sin. American bishops need to just sit on the hands and shut up for a while.
My father listened to the bishops who told him it was a sin to vote for candidates who supported a woman's right to choose. He voted for Reagan and Bush the elder because they said they were against abortion. They were, however, for war and the death penalty and taking from the poor to give to the rich. But that was OK with the bishops, killing innocent Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Palestinians, and others was OK, killing innocent unborn fetuses was not.
In the last 35 years we have seen epidemics of homelessness, racial disparities, income inequalities, unfunded and unnecessary wars. All because the bishops told their flocks that voting for democrats was a sin. American bishops need to just sit on the hands and shut up for a while.
67
I, too, come from a large family (9 kids) but the religion that inspired my parents to "multiply and replenish the earth" was Mormonism. As with Catholics, the birth rate among the Mormons has been declining steadily, indicating that in the privacy of the home, people are doing what they feel is best for themselves and their family, in spite of religious teachings.
Like your mother, Mr. Eagan, some of us experience some mental anguish when religious ideology butts up against life. Some of us don't. It is in that intersection of ideology and practice that change takes place. I have seen it within the LDS church. Eventually the religious ideology changes. It has to in order to survive.
A big mistake that some people make is assuming that Catholics or Mormons, or whatever the religious affiliation, are sheep following the pronouncements from the pulpit. Historically that has never been true and it is certainly not true today. As all good historians of religion know, you don't define religious belief from what is said but what is done. Most Catholics and nearly all Mormons believe there is no sin in using birth control, regardless of what the pope or prophet says. There is clear proof in the declining birth rates.
Like your mother, Mr. Eagan, some of us experience some mental anguish when religious ideology butts up against life. Some of us don't. It is in that intersection of ideology and practice that change takes place. I have seen it within the LDS church. Eventually the religious ideology changes. It has to in order to survive.
A big mistake that some people make is assuming that Catholics or Mormons, or whatever the religious affiliation, are sheep following the pronouncements from the pulpit. Historically that has never been true and it is certainly not true today. As all good historians of religion know, you don't define religious belief from what is said but what is done. Most Catholics and nearly all Mormons believe there is no sin in using birth control, regardless of what the pope or prophet says. There is clear proof in the declining birth rates.
12
I disagree that the devout feel there is no sin in what they do. My mother abstained from taking communion for many years because she was taking birth control after 5 children. That took a toll on her relationship with the Church and her spiritual tranquility. She was able to keep her family however, intact.
60
If they believe there is no sin if they diverge from the church's teachings and dogma, how can they call themselves a Roman Catholic or a Mormon? They are simply Christians, at best, or perhaps Episcopalians.
6
The Pope missed the opportunity to say that the Church should revisit its doctrine, but may have gone as far as he could. Kudos to Egan - Church doctrine prohibiting contraception has had a deleterious impact on a women's right to live a life without being shackled by children, as well as having posed medical risks for many mothers. But these impacts don't tell the tale of the mental anguish endured for decades by Catholic women who sought to follow their faith in the face of this doctrine. My mother was one of those.
To tempt God - what does that really mean? In the past, the Church would have viewed it as "Sin", so this Pope gets a few points for using it in another context - a human context, which appears to understand a human situation, however extreme. But tempting God by ignoring doctrine and coming to a rational, compassionate conclusion that respects the sanctity of the woman's life as well as all those within her sphere is the moral choice.
My mother was liberal minded enough to make the correct choice when the time came. Whether she went to confession and reported her "sin" to the priest over the years, I don't know. I do know that she died in a state of peace that was a testament to her faith. Her relationship was ultimately with her God, not the Church. I'm sure many Catholic women feel the same.
To tempt God - what does that really mean? In the past, the Church would have viewed it as "Sin", so this Pope gets a few points for using it in another context - a human context, which appears to understand a human situation, however extreme. But tempting God by ignoring doctrine and coming to a rational, compassionate conclusion that respects the sanctity of the woman's life as well as all those within her sphere is the moral choice.
My mother was liberal minded enough to make the correct choice when the time came. Whether she went to confession and reported her "sin" to the priest over the years, I don't know. I do know that she died in a state of peace that was a testament to her faith. Her relationship was ultimately with her God, not the Church. I'm sure many Catholic women feel the same.
10
It wasn't just a Catholic problem. When my mother was of child bearing age the only forms of birth control available were the rhythm method and condoms.
Neither of them were very useful, as it turned out.
My mother said when she got married she wanted to have a boy and a girl. She had five children, and while I have every reason to believe she loved all of us, it was difficult for my parents to support five.
When I got married I hoped for four children--two girls and two boys. I got my two girls and two boys. After the birth of the fourth child, the pill came on the market. As far as I'm concerned it was a blessing from God.
Neither of them were very useful, as it turned out.
My mother said when she got married she wanted to have a boy and a girl. She had five children, and while I have every reason to believe she loved all of us, it was difficult for my parents to support five.
When I got married I hoped for four children--two girls and two boys. I got my two girls and two boys. After the birth of the fourth child, the pill came on the market. As far as I'm concerned it was a blessing from God.
24
The most powerful statement in this insightful piece describes Mom's eventual "evolution" when she finally rebelled and decided that: "She had a mind of her own and used it." It's not hard to imagine the positive impact in population control and prevention of child neglect, poverty and all its serious consequences if all organized religions taught their followers to honor their own inner authority. Yet, as a result, some groups would lose power and control which is how the idea of required intermediaries and the reliance on outside authority figures came into being in the first place. Pope Francis, bless him, while trying to change these and other dyed in the wool beliefs is at the same time aware that significant change requires finesse and is an artful inch by inch process.
16
I was interested to see that ;you mentioned Bobby Kennedy and family. He and Ethel had eleven children, and they had enough money to give them everything money could buy. And indeed some of his children have led exemplary lives, but one of them died of a drug overdose and (as best I recall) a few others have had problems that made headlines. I have always used their family as an example of my belief that even the richest of Catholic families don't have the personal resources to pay attention to their large families.
15
And several have had affairs, divorced, and remarried -- but continue to call themselves Roman Catholics! One cheated on her husband who eventually divorced her -- but she teaches Sunday School and wrote a book about Cafeteria Catholics -- as if the Vatican even recognizes such a thing. Another pushed through an annulment when he left his Episcopalian wife with whom he had 2 children -- so he could marry in the RC church and receive communion. And a third married for the second time a pregnant woman, who eventually took her own life, and has since remarried again. Making their own rules again and again! Why do they feel it is so important to identify themselves as RC, when they don't adhere to the church's tenets? It is just ludicrous and something, I, as a Protestant, cannot begin to comprehend.
6
Bobby Kennedy also had several affairs during and after those eleven pregnancies so it wasn't like marital abstinence would really have been an issue for him.
7
In the town where I grew up there were a few huge families. Most struggled along and managed to have enough to feed and clothe the whole family. The father of one worked for my family occasionally. Each season my mother carefully sorted our clothes to give the outgrown or out of fashion ones to his family.
One time I questioned her about this because the father did have a regular job and I often saw him leaving a local bar just before dinner. Her explanation that they were poor and had many children led me to question why? I was told it was because they were good Catholics.
I responded, " aren't we good Catholics (my mother had 2 children at that point), aren't Mr and Mrs H good Catholics (one child)? Aren't X and Y and Z, naming my friends from families that had no more than 2-4 children good Catholics? They don't have so many children. Also, if Mr S is so poor, why does he stop at the local bar every afternoon?
You can imagine that my mother and I did not always see eye to eye, even when I was only in the first years of school.
One time I questioned her about this because the father did have a regular job and I often saw him leaving a local bar just before dinner. Her explanation that they were poor and had many children led me to question why? I was told it was because they were good Catholics.
I responded, " aren't we good Catholics (my mother had 2 children at that point), aren't Mr and Mrs H good Catholics (one child)? Aren't X and Y and Z, naming my friends from families that had no more than 2-4 children good Catholics? They don't have so many children. Also, if Mr S is so poor, why does he stop at the local bar every afternoon?
You can imagine that my mother and I did not always see eye to eye, even when I was only in the first years of school.
16
Your mom was fortunate to find a doctor who would give her the operation she needed. One of my friends is one of eight children. After her mom had five children, she asked to have her tubes tied. The doctor said, "I can't do that, you are Catholic." She had three more children before she made the only decision she felt she could: she divorced her husband. The older children are all accomplished adults; the three youngest have had a rough go of it with many drug and alcohol issues. The mom knew that any more children were beyond her capabilities, but the arrogant doctor didn't care and neither did her husband. My friend has one child.
27
My mother, Bessie, took the Church's advice and she bled out after the birth of her 12th child (plus three miscarriages) in 1938 at the age of 43. She was unconscious so my father never got to say goodbye -- I hope he would have included an apology in their last words. Our pastor used her as an example of a good Roman Catholic mother in his sermons, but he had to stop when she died.
72
Since the major problem faced by the entire world -- its climate, its species extinction -- all boils down to too many humans, the Pope's remarks come as a sane and necessary salve.
23
Just another reason to stop letting religion decide what you will do with your own body. Another "plague" perpetrated by religion and fear.
22
And 57 million abortions since Roe v Wade are not a plague? A plague sponsored by the progressives is still a plague.
But I agree with much of what Egan says. The world does not need families with 12 children or perhaps even families with three or four. But the humane way to achieve this is not by killing but by contraception, widely practiced and by vasectomy or having tubes tied when you feel you have enough children.
Liberals prefer imprisonment to capital punishment. By analogy I prefer contraception to abortion.
But I agree with much of what Egan says. The world does not need families with 12 children or perhaps even families with three or four. But the humane way to achieve this is not by killing but by contraception, widely practiced and by vasectomy or having tubes tied when you feel you have enough children.
Liberals prefer imprisonment to capital punishment. By analogy I prefer contraception to abortion.
5
"Liberals prefer imprisonment to capital punishment. By analogy I prefer contraception to abortion." So do liberals.
Many of the right wingers who wish to ban abortions also seem intent on hampering the availability of contraception devices. That is the biggest hypocrisy.
Many of the right wingers who wish to ban abortions also seem intent on hampering the availability of contraception devices. That is the biggest hypocrisy.
35
Amen.
3
I don't actually understand the positive spin here. Leadership is not making comments that appear decisive but are really so vague as to be useless.
People for birth control praise him and say he's supporting them. How? Where is there unbiased data on the efficacy of "Natural Family Planning"? Huge families are a thing of the past because of birth control - that's pure fact in America. Catholic, Jew, Mormon - whatever. Unless the church is against sex more than the handful of times necessary to conceive, "just don't breed like rabbits" is useless advice, unless you want sexless marriage. That's not the best advice either if you're against divorce.
"You don't have to breed like rabbits" does not address the problem. Sure, a celibate has chosen to apply himself to not conceiving, but the rest of the world hasn't. You will never convince them to do so. Right or wrong, if your follow up is "then suffer," you're not leading anymore.
Economically it no longer makes sense, either. If the poor had only the children they could afford today, the economy would collapse in 25, 35 years, because the poor cannot afford to have children today. Trying to plan a family, I'm 30 and know I cannot actually afford a Catholic family. No way. Daycare for ONE costs more than average jobs, and two parents working high-octane careers aren't in the best position as caretakers, are they?
"Just don't breed like rabbits." Gee, thanks. I don't need to get married to buy a TV for my bedroom.
People for birth control praise him and say he's supporting them. How? Where is there unbiased data on the efficacy of "Natural Family Planning"? Huge families are a thing of the past because of birth control - that's pure fact in America. Catholic, Jew, Mormon - whatever. Unless the church is against sex more than the handful of times necessary to conceive, "just don't breed like rabbits" is useless advice, unless you want sexless marriage. That's not the best advice either if you're against divorce.
"You don't have to breed like rabbits" does not address the problem. Sure, a celibate has chosen to apply himself to not conceiving, but the rest of the world hasn't. You will never convince them to do so. Right or wrong, if your follow up is "then suffer," you're not leading anymore.
Economically it no longer makes sense, either. If the poor had only the children they could afford today, the economy would collapse in 25, 35 years, because the poor cannot afford to have children today. Trying to plan a family, I'm 30 and know I cannot actually afford a Catholic family. No way. Daycare for ONE costs more than average jobs, and two parents working high-octane careers aren't in the best position as caretakers, are they?
"Just don't breed like rabbits." Gee, thanks. I don't need to get married to buy a TV for my bedroom.
6
My dad used to say that anybody who took martial advice from celibate men had better believe in miracles.
47
The problem with religious indoctrination is both cognitive and reproductive.
It tends to lend itself toward both breeding and thinking like rabbits - not impressive for the alleged 'dominant' species.
It tends to lend itself toward both breeding and thinking like rabbits - not impressive for the alleged 'dominant' species.
16
The great irony of the day is the viagra ad that stood beside the column while I was reading.
Kudos to Tim's mom. My mother, after child six, but for reasons I have never been made aware of, had a hysterectomy. Our Monsignor was the personification of a crank and a curmudgeon. I can't imagine him offering his blessing, but so it goes.
Kudos to Tim's mom. My mother, after child six, but for reasons I have never been made aware of, had a hysterectomy. Our Monsignor was the personification of a crank and a curmudgeon. I can't imagine him offering his blessing, but so it goes.
23
Religious leaders too often take on a power to make decisions for their flock that is not in the best interests of their followers. Today,that is most evident in Islam, where cult leaders profess to become prophets and lead their followers to conflict and war. Without the clergy messing in politics and nationalism, the Middle East would be fairly quiet. That applies to Iran, Saudi Arabia as well as Israel, where religion and its professed leaders are heading to killing sprees and war. Perhaps the 1300+ years old conflict between Shiites and Sunnis and between Hindus and Muslims are the best example what should never take place.
5
Iran has more women than men in its universities and the first Islamic women to climb Mt. Everest were Iranian. And it was an Iranian woman who was the first women to win the Field's medal, the most prestigious prize in mathematics.
Contrary to most beliefs, Iranians are not yokels. They are a highly sophisticated civilization.
Contrary to most beliefs, Iranians are not yokels. They are a highly sophisticated civilization.
16
We seem to be in a time warp where the medieval mind continues to exert a force at a time when it would appear that reason should have the upper hand.
These medieval views seem to emanate from individuals and groups that profess they are sitting at the right hand of God, Allah. Mohammed, or some such, and are just passing on to us what the great almighty has instructed us to do. And we wonder why the world is in such a mess.
These medieval views seem to emanate from individuals and groups that profess they are sitting at the right hand of God, Allah. Mohammed, or some such, and are just passing on to us what the great almighty has instructed us to do. And we wonder why the world is in such a mess.
28
Hundreds of years ago it probably made sense for churches to encourage large families to increase "the flock" when the particular religion was a minority religion. Now it would seem to be in their best interest to protect the planet by encouraging family planning.
28
Back then, more children died than lived. The more children, the more work and, perhaps, food for the family.
3
I am a catholic, with 12 years of catholic school under my belt. Long ago I learned to leave the religion at the church, where it belongs! Never took the teachings too seriously and for these 63+ years did what I thought was the right thing to do under the circumstances. To this day I am surprised when I hear a person take their religion too seriously. After all the clergy are just people like you and me.
29
Why subscribe at all? Cannot one make ethical decisions without religion?
5
I am a Catholic escapee with the usual family ties to priests. They are people like you and me, but they are also employees and orders come from the top.
7
And this is what the Republicans will give America when they win the Presidency in 2016. Ah, back to the Dark Ages in the name of Christ.
32
You will find a similar lack of regard of women in other religions that do not accept Christ as well as Christians.
5
Grinding poverty and desperate migration are the inevitable results of growing populations faster than economies. The roots are found in many religions as well as the tribal cultures that pre-date those religions. In short, culture and worship.
But when you dare to suggest that population control is essential to human wellbeing, conservatives lash you for being godless and liberals brand you racist. Same as it ever was.
But when you dare to suggest that population control is essential to human wellbeing, conservatives lash you for being godless and liberals brand you racist. Same as it ever was.
1
Sir,
You paint with too broad a brush. While there may be some religiously dogmatic Republicans who would, as you say, go back to the dark ages, they are few. No, most of us use birth control, read our Bible, if we are Christians, and live our lives just like the Democrats who are so sure we are medievalists.
A Republican president is unlikely to spout Catholic cant and, even if they did, they would be widely mocked by members of their own party--particularly by those like me who are protestant.
You paint with too broad a brush. While there may be some religiously dogmatic Republicans who would, as you say, go back to the dark ages, they are few. No, most of us use birth control, read our Bible, if we are Christians, and live our lives just like the Democrats who are so sure we are medievalists.
A Republican president is unlikely to spout Catholic cant and, even if they did, they would be widely mocked by members of their own party--particularly by those like me who are protestant.
2
A great, valuable column. I hope more Catholics (especially women who bred like rabbits in order to faithful Catholics). Since 90 percent of Catholic women use contraception, I don't know how this prohibition of reason against women's health and child welfare can last. A far less percentage of the population broke Prohibition laws in the 1920s, and the law was repealed in 1933. So Pope Francis, take that other step and infallibly repeal this inhumane doctrine against contraception.
26
Humanity has already fulfilled [only] ONE of God's commandments: be fruitful and multiply. We can check that one off the list!
We need to do as well on loving our neighbors as ourselves and the teachings about stewardship of the environment and dealing compassionately with the people we already have.
We need to do as well on loving our neighbors as ourselves and the teachings about stewardship of the environment and dealing compassionately with the people we already have.
34
We don't need any religion in order to do those things.
6
Whether perpetuated by Christians, Jews, Muslims or others, prohibitions on birth control are nothing more than attempts by men to assume a kind of primitive tribal power simply by out-populating everyone else. That such “population power” is achieved by using—and using up—the bodies of women matters little. There is nothing sacred, holy or defensible about turning women into brood mares for any cause.
51
I am always amazed that grown men and women allow the opinion of a man in robes or a collar to have such sway on their thinking about important life decisions. If there is a God, He/She gave you a mind of your own, so use it. How can adults give up so much of their autonomy to another?
27
Why does Rick Santorum only have seven kids? He should have at least twice that number, unless of course he and his wife are using birth control. Oh, the horror!
35
"Religions are at their best when they deal with the theological realm or big global issues. " Actually, I think religions are at their best when they question, and at their worst when they provide answers. The same goes for the Pope.
This column focuses on women's health issues. While that's important, the larger impact of the birth control pill was freeing women to engage at all levels in the workplace. That genie ain't going back in the bottle, and the Catholic Church has no other choice but to ultimately acquiesce, When that happens, it will also be a big hit to the doctrine of papal infallibility. And the sooner that happens, the sooner the Church can learn to question and breathe again.
This column focuses on women's health issues. While that's important, the larger impact of the birth control pill was freeing women to engage at all levels in the workplace. That genie ain't going back in the bottle, and the Catholic Church has no other choice but to ultimately acquiesce, When that happens, it will also be a big hit to the doctrine of papal infallibility. And the sooner that happens, the sooner the Church can learn to question and breathe again.
7
Good luck trying to resolve reason and faith.
5
I totally agree with your writings, but you did not mention that men (husbands) should take some form of responsibility if they have to have sex every other night! After acceptable number of children, say 2, get a vasectomy- it's safe and responsible!
161
It's also prohibited by the Catholic Church
3
Like so many religious doctrines, not permitting artificial birth control is insane.
7
this is so beautiful
2
As an active "cradle" Catholic, I fully agree with your Mother's decision. We are called to participate in the miracle of Creation. And as co-Creators we are expected to use our conscience to use all of God's gifts to get it right. As a Nun recently said: being pro-life to the right ring religious fanatics really just means pro-birth and not pro-child. Your Mother was inspired by a vision of her roll in life that included responsibility to her children. Thank you for sharing a story that has been experienced in many of our homes.
111
Religions are never really "at their best". Belief in fairy tales never turns out well. Time for all of us to do what we know we should.
Leave religion to the 14th Century before it does so to us.
Leave religion to the 14th Century before it does so to us.
8
Why any rational human being would follow advice regarding family size and contraception from an institution run by supposedly celibate men is a wonderment. Over the last quarter century we have learned of the cruelty and molestation visited upon countless children unlucky enough to have been given into the care of this institution. Yet the institution continues to hold sway over a billion or more adherents world wide. A religion that insists , as all formal religions do , that their followers suspend their innate common sense and ability to exercise rational thought by accepting the impossible. A belief in an omniscient supernatural being despite not one shred of tangible evidence to rebut the masses of scientific fact to the contrary. How many children any family produces depends on many factors, both emotional and financial. Such decisions are unquestionably dictated by the needs of each family and cannot be interfered with by either unsupported religious dogma or the vagaries of an allegedly democratic government that is forbidden from employing such dogma by the very first amendment to the Bill of Rights.
That the political system of this great country has been infested and polluted by such medieval and irrelevant religious beliefs that insist upon treating our female citizens as irresponsible children is an abomination that must be eradicated.
That the political system of this great country has been infested and polluted by such medieval and irrelevant religious beliefs that insist upon treating our female citizens as irresponsible children is an abomination that must be eradicated.
17
Well said and logical of course. What I wonder about is why, with this kind of thinking so predominant among Catholics, was there not a loud and vocal stance against the Affordable Care Act birth control restrictions? I'm not Catholic but worked at a Catholic institution; I didn't need birth control at that point but the reality that now non-Catholics at that institution could be denied birth control coverage is an outrage. And where, I ask, was the outrage from the 98% of Catholics in the U.S who don't follow the church's rules. A few liberals fought that battle and sadly, lost. Now brave Tim Egan speaks out but where was the discourse when it really mattered?
8
I am a Catholic and if I understand the bishops correctly, the objection to the birth control provision of the ACA was that they would be required to pay for something that goes against Church teachings. It does not preclude employees of Catholic institutions from obtaining birth control, but from receiving it for free from the Catholic employer. Other than the bishops and very conservative Catholics, no rank and file Catholic supports this view. However, we know the bishops are out of step with us and will not change their minds based on anything we say. They only listen to Rome, which put them in their positions of power. So the rest of us do what we've always done and follow our own consciences and pay for our own birth control.
6
Thanks Tim, as always, another great essay, and this one dealing with an often unmentioned subject that begs for change. The Catholic prohibition of contraceptives makes about as much sense as the Muslim denigration of women. The population explosions in the often Catholic third world are directly causing deforestation, crime and resource depletion. Another good reason for agnosticism.
8
We Catholics are aware of just how radical the pope is. No, he hasn't changed a single doctrine, just our entire orientation toward those doctrines. Americans will find a parallel in the Ginsburg vs. Scalia view of the Constitution; utterly distinct and yet neither has changed a word of that document!
No pope or bishop, to my knowledge, has counseled women clearly to put their health before the decision to conceive a child. Catholics like Santorum get it. His ilk asks, "whose side is the pope on?" Think about the "sides" they might be referring to!
No pope or bishop, to my knowledge, has counseled women clearly to put their health before the decision to conceive a child. Catholics like Santorum get it. His ilk asks, "whose side is the pope on?" Think about the "sides" they might be referring to!
4
As always, Shakespeare said it best, "I tell thee, o churlish priest/my sister a ministering angel will be/while thou liest howling"
6
Perhaps 'a ministering angel shall my sister be/when thou liest howling', indeed. But two things should be borne in mind.
1. The speaker is Laertes, and the priest has objected to her being buried in consecrated ground not because she was not a virgin (whether Hamlet did deflower her is open to debate - I tend to think he did) but because she was a suicide. The Church is actually more permissive on suicide, tending to assume that you had to be out of your mind and therefore weren't responsible for your actions and may be forgiven.
2. Laertes is not a role model. If Hamlet is one extreme - so introspective and contemplative as to be almost paralysed - Laertes is his inverse, the Hotspur-type hothead who speaks and acts precipitously.
1. The speaker is Laertes, and the priest has objected to her being buried in consecrated ground not because she was not a virgin (whether Hamlet did deflower her is open to debate - I tend to think he did) but because she was a suicide. The Church is actually more permissive on suicide, tending to assume that you had to be out of your mind and therefore weren't responsible for your actions and may be forgiven.
2. Laertes is not a role model. If Hamlet is one extreme - so introspective and contemplative as to be almost paralysed - Laertes is his inverse, the Hotspur-type hothead who speaks and acts precipitously.
1
Quoted from memory, so thanks for the correction, but one wouldn't want to leave off the introductory "I tell thee, churlish priest" as the inhumanity of the clerics was the point of the post. The rest is off point, but interesting.
5
My point was that Ophelia's sexuality was not what prompted the priest's censure; that is, that the original quote was out of context and off point. And that not everything, even in the Church, boils down to sex.
1
Thank you, as always, for your wonderful column(s).
And I am so glad your mother lived to a ripe old age!
And I am so glad your mother lived to a ripe old age!
5
Really parse the meaning of Pope Francis's airborne words and you'll likely discover a meaning closer to "abstinence makes the heart grow fonder", or "EVERYONE has rhythm". NOT some wink-wink acceptance of artificial means of avoiding a household that could "put an entire football lineup on a snowy field at Thanksgiving, with reserves".
Do you REALLY think that someone the cardinals elected as a Roman Catholic pontiff is about to utterly transform Church teaching since forever? At best, he'll wink-wink a little and we might see material progress in the Church's position in a century -- and likely dependent on technologies for providing effective contraception that are so vastly more convenient than today's that EVERY woman avails herself of them, and it becomes a matter of simple survival that the Church forgives, ignores or actually supports them.
But Tim misses a manifestly evident fact: religions are at their most effective in terms of attracting the faithful when they make the most egregious demands of those faithful. For the time being, some Catholics may be encouraged by a misreading of Francis's perceived liberal views; and some may fall away seeking more meaning in tighter strictures. But an institution that has lasted two millennia and survived both Luther and the current secular wave isn't going to change immensely while any of us are still vertical.
Do you REALLY think that someone the cardinals elected as a Roman Catholic pontiff is about to utterly transform Church teaching since forever? At best, he'll wink-wink a little and we might see material progress in the Church's position in a century -- and likely dependent on technologies for providing effective contraception that are so vastly more convenient than today's that EVERY woman avails herself of them, and it becomes a matter of simple survival that the Church forgives, ignores or actually supports them.
But Tim misses a manifestly evident fact: religions are at their most effective in terms of attracting the faithful when they make the most egregious demands of those faithful. For the time being, some Catholics may be encouraged by a misreading of Francis's perceived liberal views; and some may fall away seeking more meaning in tighter strictures. But an institution that has lasted two millennia and survived both Luther and the current secular wave isn't going to change immensely while any of us are still vertical.
9
Mr. Luettgen,
Just a note to acknowledge how much I enjoy your many well-thought-out comments. This one, again, offers a clear-eyed assessment of the Pope's recent statements and their likely effect.
Thank you.
Just a note to acknowledge how much I enjoy your many well-thought-out comments. This one, again, offers a clear-eyed assessment of the Pope's recent statements and their likely effect.
Thank you.
4
Your family story sounds so familiar. My mother, also Catholic, had five children and one miscarriage within seven years back in the 1950s. She hemorrhaged so badly after giving birth to her last baby that the doctors said she'd most likely die if she got pregnant again. My non-Catholic father had a vasectomy.
15
When will you start criticizing Orthodox Jews and Muslims for having large families? Why do you keep writing unflattering articles about the Catholic Church? Why do you allow your readers to say defaming things about the Church but do not dare write or allow negative things said about other religions? No one forces you to remain in the Church and I find your articles mean spirited and unfair. You neglect to mention that there are over one billion members and growing in the Catholic Church. I wish you would show some respect to those of us who love our faith and Pope Francis. The Catholic Church is not going away.
24
I would guess that Mr. Egan prefers to write about what he knows from personal experience. As an opinion writer, it's a perfectly reasonable choice for him to make.
19
I fought in a war to protect your right to join and be part of any religion you choose if you are a citizen of the United States of America. But in the United States of America I have the right and the duty to inform all about injustice that exists in any religion or organization. Paying a fair wage and giving people a fair way of getting help when they need it is what religion is suppose to do. The Catholic Roman Catholic and most other Christian (Supposed Christian Religions are suppose to do just that but don't. They take away women's rights and make them feel extremely guilty for doing what they need to to survive. We need to be able to have the same control that men have over their bodies. We need this in the church in the USA and any place our Army Navy, Air force, or Marines and even Coast Guard reside. Stop saying women are second class citizens and haven't the brains to deal with their own bodies.
11
You're right! No one forced me to remain a Catholic. My faith was first seriously shaken when as a 20 year old college student, I went to confession as I had been taught to at my school. The priest began to ask me very private questions about my sex life, even after I told him I was a virgin. I had actually thought that he might tell me what good choices I was making, but he angrily questioned whether I was "really" a virgin and then suddenly began to ask me if I was a lesbian. I was shaken and upset. That was the LAST time I stepped in a confessional, and it was over 30 years ago. I left the guilt and shame behind me. I have not regretted it once.
11
As one of 8 and a former Catholic - now a non beleiver, I could not agree more with this article. The church has and continues to treat its members like little sheep with no minds or reason of their own. A bishop or a pope for that matter is no smarter than most of us. We all have the ability to analyze and reason and know the difference between good and bad choices. If one is to really follows the teaching of the gospels, then follow the one true commandment and nothing else matters. Love is love. Forcing unwanted births, telling a same sex couple that their love is not true and tying the hands of divorced couples because of a bad marriage does nothing to help live out the one commandment.
16
As one of 13 siblings I can tell you emphatically that the rhythm method doesn't work.
I guess you could call my parents , both deceased, old school Catholics. Having large families, attending Parochial schools, mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation was just a way of life. People would ask what it's like having 12 siblings and my answer would always be it's the only thing I've known so I can't compare it to another's perspective. I didn't have my own bedroom until I moved out of the house in my early twenties.
My mother was the dutiful wife to a very stern, devout, true believing father. My dad was a hardcore Catholic, very educated and intelligent, who never questioned the precepts of the Church and, I like to say, the world's poorest Republican.
Anyway, I recall coming home from school one day to be informed of a very sick mother who'd been hospitalized for excessive bleeding resulting from the attempt to have child number 14. Looking back I realize that unquestioning fealty to religious doctrine is not only limiting to one's intellectual development, it's hazardous to the health and well being of the women entrapped by the dogma.
I guess you could call my parents , both deceased, old school Catholics. Having large families, attending Parochial schools, mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation was just a way of life. People would ask what it's like having 12 siblings and my answer would always be it's the only thing I've known so I can't compare it to another's perspective. I didn't have my own bedroom until I moved out of the house in my early twenties.
My mother was the dutiful wife to a very stern, devout, true believing father. My dad was a hardcore Catholic, very educated and intelligent, who never questioned the precepts of the Church and, I like to say, the world's poorest Republican.
Anyway, I recall coming home from school one day to be informed of a very sick mother who'd been hospitalized for excessive bleeding resulting from the attempt to have child number 14. Looking back I realize that unquestioning fealty to religious doctrine is not only limiting to one's intellectual development, it's hazardous to the health and well being of the women entrapped by the dogma.
239
Yes, dogma created exclusively by men.
9
"The pope later clarified his remarks, saying his stance did not mark a fundamental shift from the church’s position."
Until this pope, and the reactionary bishops under him, start making some of those "fundamental shifts" what we are seeing is merely an example of feel good public relations.
Until this pope, and the reactionary bishops under him, start making some of those "fundamental shifts" what we are seeing is merely an example of feel good public relations.
14
The obvious and revolting reason why religions encourage people to do the rabbit thing is because they want to increase their flocks. The negative consequences go far beyond medical problems faced by women such as the author's mother: society often has to help support these excessively large families, and worse, our planet cannot support the overpopulation that already exists and keeps on growing. So sad that people can't think for themselves and instead feel the need for their priests, rabbis, imams to tell them what to think. Just start with the golden rule and you can't go wrong.
14
I graduated from a Jesuit university in Ohio some years ago and the Pope is a Jesuit through and through. Too bad for the conservatives who are often dismayed by his comments!
7
And he is using his knowledge for the good of his fellow humans. My wife and I had four, her Doctors recommended a total hysterectomy after three, she agreed after four and was available for children until her 82nd year. She had a sharp mind and used it, her favorite saying regarding religion was "the Bible would have been a different book do not's if woman had been the authors".
8
Tim,
Why no mention of the idiom for this: 'Irish Twins'.
Siblings separated by birthdays nine months plus a day or more apart.
A relative of mine birthed eight in this fashion then her husband dropped dead at forty one, leaving her holding the bag for raising eight kids.
A pretty irresponsible approach to recruiting new members if you ask me.
Why no mention of the idiom for this: 'Irish Twins'.
Siblings separated by birthdays nine months plus a day or more apart.
A relative of mine birthed eight in this fashion then her husband dropped dead at forty one, leaving her holding the bag for raising eight kids.
A pretty irresponsible approach to recruiting new members if you ask me.
23
I would argue that any religion errs when it defines "morality" as a code of conduct that supposedly emanates from---and includes obligations to---a divinity. The term "morality" should only apply to the rules that govern how we, humanity, treats one another, treats lower species, and looks out for future generations.
5
If the Catholic Church wants to see more children, let them permit the marriage of their priests. What other people do should not be their concern.
8
Tim,
Your essay is a good illustration of the straw man argument. The approach taken by your mother's bishop bears no resemblance to the teaching of the Catholic Church on procreation which states: "For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children." Your mother had a good reason to avoid having further children. Natural family planning is a safe and effective method to space births or prevent pregnancy and is endorsed by the Church.
I recognize that many oppose the Church's teaching on procreation. But please don't use straw man arguments. Begin your argument with an accurate statement of the Church's position, not a caricature. Your essay is really a critique of a single bishop who was abusing his authority and not a condemnation of the Church's position on contraception and procreation.
Your essay is a good illustration of the straw man argument. The approach taken by your mother's bishop bears no resemblance to the teaching of the Catholic Church on procreation which states: "For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children." Your mother had a good reason to avoid having further children. Natural family planning is a safe and effective method to space births or prevent pregnancy and is endorsed by the Church.
I recognize that many oppose the Church's teaching on procreation. But please don't use straw man arguments. Begin your argument with an accurate statement of the Church's position, not a caricature. Your essay is really a critique of a single bishop who was abusing his authority and not a condemnation of the Church's position on contraception and procreation.
4
Natural Family Planning is a fancy version of the rhythm method. It's stressful, inaccurate, requires an awful lot of work, and even then can be thrown off by illness or stress. It requires some equipment to take one's vaginal temperature, it requires a lead-up of at least a month of abstinence while figuring out one's "baseline", it doesn't work for women with unpredictable cycles, it doesn't work for months and months after a birth. NFP is also not effective without the man working with it, which means it doesn't work in a relationship where sexual coercion exists (and, lets be honest, that's a lot of relationships).
No, Natural Family Planning is not an effective method for spacing or avoiding births. If it worked, the Pope would oppose it because it would actually be effective birth control. NFP can be decent as a fertility enhancement method, but to prevent births? It's pretty terrible. Condoms work better, and hormonal birth control works even better. Those methods are also a whole lot more convenient, less stressful, and at least in some cases under the control of the woman and not reliant on her partner's cooperation.
No, Natural Family Planning is not an effective method for spacing or avoiding births. If it worked, the Pope would oppose it because it would actually be effective birth control. NFP can be decent as a fertility enhancement method, but to prevent births? It's pretty terrible. Condoms work better, and hormonal birth control works even better. Those methods are also a whole lot more convenient, less stressful, and at least in some cases under the control of the woman and not reliant on her partner's cooperation.
11
My mother had had several miscarriages in addition to the first four kids. While pregnant with number five, she asked about birth control options. My father was experiencing recurrences of the cancer that killed him, but had refused surgery until Mom had the baby.
No way, said the priest. Not allowed. The lack of any human empathy or understanding was astounding to me even back when I was 12 --- now that I'm an adult, I am even less able to fathom this attitude toward women.
And just as a matter of logic --- give me a break! if sex were simply about procreation, we would be like the other mammals and only be sexually available during estrus. This is pure and simple a fear of females and a way to keep a hold over their independence.
No way, said the priest. Not allowed. The lack of any human empathy or understanding was astounding to me even back when I was 12 --- now that I'm an adult, I am even less able to fathom this attitude toward women.
And just as a matter of logic --- give me a break! if sex were simply about procreation, we would be like the other mammals and only be sexually available during estrus. This is pure and simple a fear of females and a way to keep a hold over their independence.
226
Unchecked procreation kills not just women's bodies but their minds. Try to write a book or solve an equation when a baby is squealing in the crib or kicking in your stomach. It's not impossible: my mother became a scholar and a writer despite having me at 18 and I didn't do too badly either with two kids. But without contraception we both would have been driven mad by the unthinking cruelty of nature that cares not at all for individual creativity. It pushes for many to be born so few can survive, and if your life is shattered in the process, so be it. Every time I see a woman with more than three kids, I feel pity for another stunted or extinguished mind. Perhaps the church's insistence on procreation is another way of keeping half of the population dumb.
23
You write the most sensible articles in this newspaper! Agree totally with you re: Catholic (having grown up, and then abandoning) doctrine, which at a very young age made little sense to me. As for reproducing, God may have said to go forth and multiply, but didn't he also,gives us the brains to know when to stop ????
14
This is MRS. The church's MAN-MADE rules are what turned me away many years ago. I have always believed that if the Catholic Church did not supplement or support in any way the large families it expected its members to bear, then they had no business making any rules about sexual abstinence or birth control issues. The church conveniently forgets that we are all given the gifts of intelligence and free will, and we should use them wisely. My intelligence tells me I cannot afford to support a large family and my free will tells me to use what is readily available to support myself in that decision. If I believe that birth control pills are appropriate, I should use them; if I believe that barrier methods are appropriate, I should use them; if I believe that permanently making conception unavailable by sterilization, then I should have that surgery. No church should condemn the most personal decision any woman can make for herself. Men, too have the choice of vasectomizing themselves or using barrier methods and the church condemns that, too. Nature is great; controlling nature is within the intellectual and free will reach of every person. Use the gifts God gave you--spare yourself a life of control by a church that doesn't understand the first thing about life. Kudos to Pope Francis for being a realist. That's what Jesuits are all about--they're easier to deal with.
13
Not only did he church not support large families, it endlessly dunned and shamed them into contributions they could ill afford. My father lost his faith when he visited the Vatican and saw the unimaginable wealth and luxury there, after a childhood spent in an Italian ghetto and scraping up coins to put in the collection plate. The brutal hypocrisy shook the church right out of him.
13
This column and some of the comments miss an obvious fact. These women either weren't breastfeeding or were only breastfeeding for a very short time. If a woman is breastfeeding her child exclusively for six months, before gradually introducing solid food, her period does not start again for up to or over a year, meaning that the spacing between children generally would be two years or more. "Back in the day," many doctors recommended introducing solids at 6-8 weeks of age, anything but natural. Why "God's plan" must be followed when it comes to sex, but may be safely ignored when it comes to feeding and postpartum hormonal cycles is a mystery to me.
35
Not true in all cases. Breastfeeding does indeed stop the menstrual cycles in most women, but not all. It wasn't until WWII that bottle feeding became popular and breastfeeding was shunned. It was not until the 1980's-1990 that breastfeeding became again popular. People are still having problems with mom's feeding their babies in public. Please check out the history of breastfeeding in this country before you condemn. If breastfeeding only stopped pregnancy for 6 months, the other 6 months, you can become pregnant. One baby every 15-16 months is still too frequent.
7
Joy, I think your years are a little off. I'm currently reading Mary McCarthy's novel 'The Group.' It's set in the 1930s, opening in 1933 and ending with the start of the War. One of the characters, Priss, has succeeded in having her first child after a string of miscarriages. She is very flat-chested, can't produce enough milk, finds breastfeeding painful, and wants to bottle-feed the baby. Her husband Sloan, a paediatrician, insists that 'breast is best' and bullies her into breastfeeding. Her nurse tells her all the other babies are bottle babies, and further, that if anyone insists on breastfeeding it's upper-class affluent types like her - all the middle- to lower-class women see breastfeeding as 'peasant'.
2
Sorry, strictly breastfeeding for the first six months does NOT mean that a woman isn't fertile during that time. Trust me on that.
11
My parents thought they had rhythm too, but they had 9 children. The largest family in our parish, had 15 kids. I have 5 brothers and 3 sisters, my mother will be 84 on Feb 19th and my father just turned 89 years old. My mother did 2 things after the birth of my youngest brother in 1968, first she went on the pill and then she got a part-time job in the bookstore at the University of MO - St. Louis (evenings). Sundays my father took us to the movies, which at that time was always was a double feature. Giving my mother alone time. FYI, my father coached and this is for NY Jets fans, he coached (retired) Jets place kicker, Pat Leahy in his youth! I'm #4 out of nine and we are a close knit family. My brother Michael has the most next generation, 4 daughters. But as of today, my parents have 9 kids, 16 grand-kids, 12 great-grand kids with 2 on it's way (May & August). Last year, we all celebrated my dad 70th Anniversary of landing on Normandy Beach. He was a "mine scout" and a very successful one at that!
7
My father, a Catholic, worked in a general hospital in the 1960s and a woman came in for a tubal ligation. He was discussing the procedure with her when she said, "Wait, you're a Catholic, aren't you? Are you even allowed to do this?" He answered that, well, the Pope hadn't quite made up his mind yet, so he'd put a slip knot in the tube and if the decision went against her she'd have to promise to come back so he could pull it out. (That pope was John XXIII.) It was sometimes hard to be a Catholic doctor, but my father was alwasy sure -- though tested by later developments that the church had to be ultimatlely on the side of reason and sense.
9
A Gallup Poll in in May of 2012 reported that 82% of U.S. Catholics found birth control to be morally acceptable and another 3% found it acceptable in various circumstances -- http://www.gallup.com/poll/154799/americans-including-catholics-say-birt....
A majority of Pope Paul VI birth control commission in the 1960s supported a position of openness to human life but, also. would not prohibit contraception; however, Paul VI went with the minority on the commission and issue his Humanae Vitae encyclical on 1968, which banned all forms of artificial birth control. Paul VI insisted that his position on the issue did not reach the level of infallibility, but his successors never left much room, if any, for Catholics to think otherwise.
I have to think that Pope Francis, a man that has the "smell of the sheep" and possessing good sense holds that the same position of Paul VI -- this is not infallible teaching, and Catholics can form their consciences and come to a different conclusion about birth control.
Am confident he will have more to say about the issue when he issues his encyclical on the environment this year, which will certainly have to deal with the issue of overpopulation and our responsibilities to not contribute to the problem while being open to new life.
A majority of Pope Paul VI birth control commission in the 1960s supported a position of openness to human life but, also. would not prohibit contraception; however, Paul VI went with the minority on the commission and issue his Humanae Vitae encyclical on 1968, which banned all forms of artificial birth control. Paul VI insisted that his position on the issue did not reach the level of infallibility, but his successors never left much room, if any, for Catholics to think otherwise.
I have to think that Pope Francis, a man that has the "smell of the sheep" and possessing good sense holds that the same position of Paul VI -- this is not infallible teaching, and Catholics can form their consciences and come to a different conclusion about birth control.
Am confident he will have more to say about the issue when he issues his encyclical on the environment this year, which will certainly have to deal with the issue of overpopulation and our responsibilities to not contribute to the problem while being open to new life.
6
Your mom was a very brave person to do that.
There is no moral justification to be made by a faith to ban all "artificial" forms of birth control, yet continue to advocate any method at all, even a method as primitive and ineffective as the "rhythm method".
What is the faith trying to say? That we aren't allowed to use our intelligence and reasoning skills to come up with our own solutions, but we can continue to use the ones that we know don't work?
It doesn't pass the laugh test, and as long as the Catholic Church continues to traffic in absurdity like that in the modern world, it will continue its inevitable decline into irrelevance.
There is no moral justification to be made by a faith to ban all "artificial" forms of birth control, yet continue to advocate any method at all, even a method as primitive and ineffective as the "rhythm method".
What is the faith trying to say? That we aren't allowed to use our intelligence and reasoning skills to come up with our own solutions, but we can continue to use the ones that we know don't work?
It doesn't pass the laugh test, and as long as the Catholic Church continues to traffic in absurdity like that in the modern world, it will continue its inevitable decline into irrelevance.
149
good point-- illustrating the illogic of ALL religious doctrine.
3
"What is the faith trying to say? That we aren't allowed to use our intelligence and reasoning skills to come up with our own solutions, but we can continue to use the ones that we know don't work?"
And what, may I ask is the rationalization for the difference? The intent is the same. If we can prevent pregnancy through one method but not another, we still are accomplishing the same thing.
And what, may I ask is the rationalization for the difference? The intent is the same. If we can prevent pregnancy through one method but not another, we still are accomplishing the same thing.
1
I figure a church reckons they can control how their members express their sexuality and allow the church to make their reproductive choices, they can make them do anything.
3
And if religions should not dictate medical options for women and women, with their spouses, are able to think for themselves, then why should government step in to require that these personal decisions adhere to the religious beliefs of ultra-fundamentalist Christian bigots? "Devout" Republicans have backed anti-abortion legislation in far too many states indiscriminately punishing families by closing clinics that offer women birth control and abortion services. But extremism in religion and politics is a worldwide problem. Just as we have Neanderthal Republicans enacting laws to outlaw medical choice freedoms, the Taliban outlaw schools for women. The Greeks were right. "Know thyself" and "moderation" were key ideas and Greek civilization flourished. But modern Americans have apparently decided that the American Family Association and its Republican cohorts may patronizingly drive us into the past.
19
With the GOP, governors and congressmen working tirelessly to limit access to abortion and the Catholic church forbidding practical contraception, women often have no choice but give birth to that last ,unwanted child.
And the population of this planet grows as resources dwindle.
Insanity, pure insanity.
And the population of this planet grows as resources dwindle.
Insanity, pure insanity.
26
As a reference to what at least some people in Asia (one doctor in particular) are doing to address birth control at a totally local level, I recommend viewing the site for this wonderful restaurant in Bangkok called Cabbages & Condoms, at: http://cabbagesandcondoms.com/index.php
The courage and dedication of this doctor and group to promote birth control is to be admired, the restaurant is great fun and well worth the visit.
The courage and dedication of this doctor and group to promote birth control is to be admired, the restaurant is great fun and well worth the visit.
3
In 1978, at the age of 22, I married a wonderful man, formerly Cathokic. In order to please my future in-laws, we explored having a priest participate in our United Methodist wedding. To achieve that, I would have had to sign papers expressly promising not to use birth control. I was young but not stupid. We didn't have a priest, and my in-laws were "displeased" with me for the following 30 years. Oh well, one must live with one's innermost convictions, come what may! My husband and I will celebrate our 37th anniversary in May, and we have two adult sons.
39
A smart lady. With more minds like these, the race back to the dark ages may be halted or anyhow slowed down.
5
Causing people to ruin the only life they will ever have for the false promise of a better life after death is no more honest than selling them Ponzi schemes.
56
The best and most succinct comment I have ever read. Bravo!
5
100 years ago the maternal death rate in childbirth was 1 in 4, my own grandmother included, dying in childbirth with her 4th child at age 27. It is reminiscent of the chicken and pig story of the chicken wanting for them to make breakfast for the farmer and his family, with the pig replying, "For you it's a contribution, for me it's a commitment." Until there is an encyclical about the use of artificial erectile dysfunction drugs or artificial bowel stimulants, folks should ignore the guys with the funny hats with their limp genitals and know that they are full of you know what.
24
I'm puzzled by why the doctrine of papal infallibility, dogmatically defined in the late nineteenth century, is considered by so many strict Catholics, not to apply to Pope Francis. This is the same church which tolerated and covered up rampant sexual abuse of children for decades and continues to venerate the popes who were complicit in these outrages it during those years. Ironic, isn't it?
25
Papal infallibility is actually quite limited, not to each and every word out of the mouth of a pope.
1
I was wondering the exact same thing, while reading Santorum's questioning of the pope's comments. Who is he to question anything the pope says if he is indeed a good Catholic?
7
Papal infallibility applies only to statements made 'ex cathedra', not every word out of the pope's mouth. Still, your point is well taken. There are a lot of Catholics who are willing to follow the pope's guidance on spiritual and temporal matters of morality and ethics - as long as he says what they want to hear.
And that's true of both liberals and conservatives. For instance, Francis' utterances on LGBT Catholics were a change of tone, not of doctrine.
And that's true of both liberals and conservatives. For instance, Francis' utterances on LGBT Catholics were a change of tone, not of doctrine.
8
Thank you for this story, Tim.
It is true that this Pope makes non-practicing Catholics like myself dare to hope for a more enlightened future.
My understanding of the historical facts is that "something" happened and Pius 12 contradicted the two commissions studying the issue of artifical birth control. And the world has suffered since. Innocent women have died in childbirth and from botched abortions. Countless abortions have been performed because of lack of birth control.
In America Catholics practice birth control, and it is not a matter of confession. Not so in poor countries racked with poverty and ignorance. So the endless suffering perpetuates.
This Pope gives us hope. But action is needed. Birth control should be endorsed and encouraged. Celibacy made voluantary. Women made completely equal. Divorce accepted. Criminal behavior by the clergy tried in the courts.
Endorse science. Endorse the teachings of Christ and not the bigoted and self-serving interpretations of old men of frail substance.
It is true that this Pope makes non-practicing Catholics like myself dare to hope for a more enlightened future.
My understanding of the historical facts is that "something" happened and Pius 12 contradicted the two commissions studying the issue of artifical birth control. And the world has suffered since. Innocent women have died in childbirth and from botched abortions. Countless abortions have been performed because of lack of birth control.
In America Catholics practice birth control, and it is not a matter of confession. Not so in poor countries racked with poverty and ignorance. So the endless suffering perpetuates.
This Pope gives us hope. But action is needed. Birth control should be endorsed and encouraged. Celibacy made voluantary. Women made completely equal. Divorce accepted. Criminal behavior by the clergy tried in the courts.
Endorse science. Endorse the teachings of Christ and not the bigoted and self-serving interpretations of old men of frail substance.
33
I find it very uncomfortable to be in a position critical of others' religious beliefs and practice. However, the tension between humanism and orthodox religion is centuries old, and I doubt that there are many Catholics who would find the perspectives and practices of the Church of 700 years ago to be palatable. So the idea that evolving prevailing culture can lead to evolution of religious belief and practice is essentially an accepted concept. Therefore, it is not narrow-minded to think that our current cultural standards of concern for mothers and fathers and existing children should lead to modification of Church doctrine regarding reproduction.
6
Were the Roman Catholic Church to permit more methods of birth control, then I suspect that its position on abortion would mostly, ultimately prevail. The need for the latter, which does involve ending a life, is reduced through use of the former.
That was the real cost of the "Every sperm and egg is precious" school of theology. The aborted babies went out with the bath water.
That was the real cost of the "Every sperm and egg is precious" school of theology. The aborted babies went out with the bath water.
5
It is more than sad to see grown adults believing in Santa Claus, making important life decisions accordingly--it's frightening.
So too with the gods--mythical psyches with supernatural powers--rightfully at home in comic books.
I was once shocked by a better than average 19 year old student's decision to marry because it entitled her to a higher celestial level in her "after-life". Religions are corporations marketing and enforcing god stories and should be be subject to truth in advertising law. Indoctrinating kids to accept fiction or even groundless non-fiction as established fact--propaganda to propagate the faith--should be a criminal offense. But it's a constitutional right, along with irresponsible gun ownership.
"Faith" can mean trust--and so reasonable or not. But religious/theological faith is blind, dogmatic belief and obedience regardless of evidence--usually taught like Santa myth, buttressed by architecture, hierarchy, ceremony and a marketing scam--turning the vice of irrational belief into a virtue along with hope and charity.
It encourages adults to not only make bizarre and irresponsible life decisions but to abdicate personal responsibility by submitting to bogus religious "authority".
So too with the gods--mythical psyches with supernatural powers--rightfully at home in comic books.
I was once shocked by a better than average 19 year old student's decision to marry because it entitled her to a higher celestial level in her "after-life". Religions are corporations marketing and enforcing god stories and should be be subject to truth in advertising law. Indoctrinating kids to accept fiction or even groundless non-fiction as established fact--propaganda to propagate the faith--should be a criminal offense. But it's a constitutional right, along with irresponsible gun ownership.
"Faith" can mean trust--and so reasonable or not. But religious/theological faith is blind, dogmatic belief and obedience regardless of evidence--usually taught like Santa myth, buttressed by architecture, hierarchy, ceremony and a marketing scam--turning the vice of irrational belief into a virtue along with hope and charity.
It encourages adults to not only make bizarre and irresponsible life decisions but to abdicate personal responsibility by submitting to bogus religious "authority".
19
Not so long ago, if a pregnant woman began to have complications during the birthing process, midwives would give the father the choice of saving the child or saving the mother. The father would make the choice according to his devotion to his wife, or the desire to have a male heir. If the father chose to save the child, his wife would almost surely die.
Men have always thought they have the right to decide the fate of women. That fact does not make it right. If one truly believes in the right to life, doesn't that mean a woman should be given the right to make life and death decisions for herself?
Men have always thought they have the right to decide the fate of women. That fact does not make it right. If one truly believes in the right to life, doesn't that mean a woman should be given the right to make life and death decisions for herself?
51
There seems to be a deep and desperate need by some men to control the very portals of life and death, even to this day. It is no coincidence that the current trend toward looser gun laws tracks side-by-side with the trend toward far more stringent abortion and birth control laws. It is about solidifying and expanding male power.
14
I have mixed feelings about Pope Francis's observation that Catholics need not breed like rabbits. I was told when I was 11 years old and pregnant in the 1960's that some people viewed "our women" Irish Catholic women, as "breeders" and "we" whoever we were, were trying to change that. My pregnancy resulted from being "taken advantage of" by a much older young man. Under NYS law, it was a felony. Legalistically, I didn't know what he'd done to me and couldn't describe it sufficiently to prove I hadn't consented to what was called a "roll in the hay." Our parish priest told me that sometimes girls must suffer so boys can keep clean records and support wives and children. I share my story because what I heard in a parish priest's office one day proves to me that the Church's teachings about sex exist to protect males, shame females, and produce more church members. Based on how I was treated, I believe in my heart of hearts that the celibate men who condemn little girls like me to be tied down flat on their backs for penance while bringing their soon to be stolen children into the world view females as animals. Many Irish Catholics were very fearful of the priests. I'll wax Irish here - when we left the pastor's office, my now departed father told me that mommy and daddy were not going to be able to be nice to me for a while - maybe never. Shame on the church for what it has done to innocent girls and women who believed the song and dance.
91
So sorry for what happened to you.
If you have never seen the Irish film "The Magdalen Sisters", you should see it. Warning: it's a tough film to watch. The Magdalen laundries of Eire (the Republic of Ireland) continued well into the 1960s - I forget when they ended - and were essentially convents-prisons-reform schools, run by nuns, to which girls were sent if they were sexually active or threatened to become so. (Your family could put you in a Magdalen for getting pregnant, or getting raped, or simply being disturbingly attractive.) They were basically slave labour for the priests and nuns. The film is fiction but based on fact, and the filmmakers said they left out some of the most disturbing stories they found in their research. I urge everyone to see this movie.
If you have never seen the Irish film "The Magdalen Sisters", you should see it. Warning: it's a tough film to watch. The Magdalen laundries of Eire (the Republic of Ireland) continued well into the 1960s - I forget when they ended - and were essentially convents-prisons-reform schools, run by nuns, to which girls were sent if they were sexually active or threatened to become so. (Your family could put you in a Magdalen for getting pregnant, or getting raped, or simply being disturbingly attractive.) They were basically slave labour for the priests and nuns. The film is fiction but based on fact, and the filmmakers said they left out some of the most disturbing stories they found in their research. I urge everyone to see this movie.
19
I'm sorry for what you went through! It sounds horrific. And glad you survived to tell the tale.
6
I am so sorry this happened to you.
5
I understood his comments to mean that the mother shouldn't be putting her own life at risk with eight C-sections. The usual recommendation is 2-3, since each operation thins the uterine wall. After my own mother had four, our parish priest told her she didn't need to have any more and risk her health, she had four children to raise. That was Pope Francis' point. I don't think we should underestimate how difficult it is for him to attempt to change church doctrine, how many members of the Catholic church desperately need someone to tell them EXACTLY what to do so they can get that straight ticket to heaven. These people are not comfortable using the mind God gave them, and the idea that you should follow your conscience on dicey moral issues makes them uncomfortable. As a practicing progressive RC, I think he's setting the church up for larger - inevitable - changes in the future. That said, I don't have a lot of patience for people who make their decisions based on what a priest might say. The priest may be a "person of God" but he goes to confession too. God gave you a mind, use it.
16
My mother gave birth to 14 children over a 24-year period. In that stretch of time she was pregnant for more than 10-years. All the babies were born before the end of the second World War and the family lived without electricity and running water. My parents were not Catholic and did not go to church. So, they had no religious excuses for having so many children. Back between the two World Wars, the means of birth control were primitive measured by today's standards. Many families didn't give much thought to family planning. They did what came "naturally." We should be forever grateful for modern contraceptive methods, especially for the sake of women. For the most part, here in North America, they have been relieved of a terrible burden. However, some religious leaders have remained in a dark cave and continue to control the minds of their most devout followers. Their weapon is fear. Fear of what? Fear of a loving God? It really blows the mind.
56
I'm glad your mother lived to a ripe old age. Wonderful.
It's hard to believe that people took these edicts so seriously and that a priest had so much unwarranted power over his flock. Sad and tragic in the true sense of the word.
It's hard to believe that people took these edicts so seriously and that a priest had so much unwarranted power over his flock. Sad and tragic in the true sense of the word.
24
I am amazed how little scientific sociological interest there is in the role of belief in afterlife in human motivation and manipulation. This is all the more astounding to me in view of the spreading problem with suicide "martyrs".
6
Many, many years ago I read one of Father Andrew Greeley's many books. He recounted a conversation with a Catholic woman who said her own priest had counseled her against the risk to her soul of using birth control. But what can I do? She said. The priest isn't the one who has to turn my husband away when we both finish a hard day's work. She decided that God had joined them, and let not man - the priest - put them asunder.
8
I may be misunderstanding many things, but I would have thought that the principle of following one's own conscience might have a place in the process of deciding whether to risk death with another pregnancy. The challenge was to consider the competing interests and resolve them, and that is done in these kinds of circumstances, I thought, through inner guidance, not blind adherence to a code. I am glad the columnist's mother did not let others, even clergy, remove this important process from her own hands.
38
Any male that supports the ban on contraceptives for women should be required to do volunteer direct patient work in labor and delivery wards for a year at a hospital in a heavily devout Catholic or Mormon community. If they can witness the death and reproductive destruction with women who have had more than 6-8 births and still maintain their principles, God help them.
340
Critical thought is central to modernity and, arguably so still to this day. Unfortunately, some people go as far as condemning it!
2
Have any sources that devout Mormon and Catholic have more babies than the rest of the world? Or did you just make that up?
4
Were the Pope's comments about Catholics not having to "be like rabbits" referring to the number of offspring or sexual position?
10
Brave story, Tim! Sliocht sleachta ar shliocht do shleachta (May the offspring of your offspring's offspring have offspring!)
It's easy for those distant from the problem to be clear, decisive, and abrupt in their judgment. It's different for those who lived it, especially where the "public" schools were, and still are, run by the parish priest. There was always a tension when the same priest came to the house to collect dues (Peter's Pence; Christmas or Easter; a new roof for the presbytery...)--he might comment on behavior at school, intimidating kids and parents alike. And that was the easy part of it. Going against the Church and the tribe was hard for many because the Church was tribe, interwoven with history and politics.
Times change. Francis is a welcome breeze of mountain air. Long may he live.
It's easy for those distant from the problem to be clear, decisive, and abrupt in their judgment. It's different for those who lived it, especially where the "public" schools were, and still are, run by the parish priest. There was always a tension when the same priest came to the house to collect dues (Peter's Pence; Christmas or Easter; a new roof for the presbytery...)--he might comment on behavior at school, intimidating kids and parents alike. And that was the easy part of it. Going against the Church and the tribe was hard for many because the Church was tribe, interwoven with history and politics.
Times change. Francis is a welcome breeze of mountain air. Long may he live.
26
The RCC has lost the respect of many women because of its birth control stance. Wonder why the GOP which has similar antiquated views is not suffering the same fate.
118
Lest we forget, the kind of Catholicism described here is but one of many religious practices that coerce women through scripture and archaic rules to fill pews, temples and mosques with generation after generation of followers...the world cannot afford these religions to keep stoking with their selfish, misogynistic and ethnocentric baby-making factories. Greece, with it's 27% unemployment, the Islamic world where multiple wives and dozens of children have translated to generation after generation of jihadists, orthodox Jews filling the West Bank with high rise, walled cities constantly under attack, 20% unemployment in Spain...where does it stop? The world has too many people. We cannot "outbreed" each other without tremendously painful, Holocaust-like "solutions" eventually being resorted to by whatever religious gene pool has "won" the race to dominate the planet.
103
While I agree with the direction of your thinking you should be aware that the Spanish birth rate is one of the lowest in the world, less than 1.4 live births per woman, and that the population is actually shrinking. The unemployment rate has more to do with government policy than with demographics.
9
I agree with you. But, the wars perpetuated by one religious dogma after the other is also killing the other religious strains. If we had a more proper birth rate, one where every individual was wanted and needed by society, maybe that would end the wars once and for all? Just a thought.
3
Well said. Religious dogma stifles our responsibility to thinks for ourselves, ignore reality as is. And the Pope, a nice guy, is out of sync in that regard.
22
My husband is the 7th on nine children. The five eldest, all boys, were abused by the parish priest. My husband was spared, they moved the pedophile to another town. He and I have absolutely no use for the Catholic church or any religion for that matter.
79
Tim Egan is a great columnist--smart, humane...our voice from the beautiful western U.S.!
79
My father became an orphan when he was five years old. His siblings were Flossie, Mae, Wally and Barney and then the baby Leland. When she was pregnant the sixth time she became ill perhaps nursing her own father, but when the last baby was born he died and and the young mother Maude died too. Amazingly looking through family history there are more than a few mothers who died because they had no control over their personal reproductive health. They always left a house full of orphans.
120
You have written my father's story, too. Utah. Four boys, my father the third. His mother died after giving birth to the fourth. His father had a sixth grade eduction (his wife had a high school diploma, but this was Mormon Utah, so her work was baby making). His father remarried; another brother. They all grew up poor, peddling cress from the ditches and pushing ice cream carts up the streets of Salt Lake City. Small wonder that among my father's children, the four of us, we have a total of four children--and two of those are adopted.
6
Just mentioning "Rick Santorum" in an article is enough to make anyone,. Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim or Atheist squeamish.
56
Two is enough.
Being stewards of the earth means leaving ample space for other species to prosper.
Being stewards of the earth means leaving ample space for other species to prosper.
37
Well said indeed! I'm amazed at the number of people who simply do not get this.
3
I remember my very Catholic mother, when asked by my very young self to explain what those funny "balloons" were in my parent's nightstand, calmly explaining that she and many of our neighbors believed that it was a bigger sin to have more kids than they could afford, than to use birth control.
She added that I need not mention it to the priest or to the nuns.
She added that I need not mention it to the priest or to the nuns.
31
Scott, I love your mother!
4
Santorum missed his calling.
2
The church, Rick Santorum, and all other politicians need to mind their own business. Only the two involved, potential mother and father, should be the ones to decide how many children they are physically, emotionally and financially able to care for. It is no one else's business, least of all hypocritical politicians like Santorum whose wife had a "medically necessary pregnancy termination", in other words abortion, to save her life. But her life is more valuable than the rest of ours. I was raised Catholic but left the church in my late 20's. We have five children, even with the use of birth control which failed. Never once did I feel guilt or remorse at trying to limit the size of my family. Pregnancy is dangerous, difficult and debilitating for many women. I suffered with gestational diabetes in my 4th and 5th pregnancies and risked developing diabetes. My daughter-in-law had critical heart issues requiring hospitalization and close monitoring. She has been advised to have no more children. She and my son have two. Good thing that they're not Catholic or even religious. Religion is about control and money; Gods teachings are secondary. The Catholic church encourages large families so they will have an endless supply of communicants to keep the coffers full. That you are unable to provide for your children is of little concern to them. Nor is it of any concern to the "pro life" party of Rick Santorum for whom life begins at conception and ends at birth. Hypocrites all.
40
I too grew up Catholic, in a family with three kids that attended a church filled with families having 7-12 children. One day I asked my mom why we didn't have more like they did. She replied, "Because three is what we can afford." Because of her choice to use some form of birth control, we could take little vacations (we could all fit in one car), go to the Outdoor theater, and live in a small, modest but lovely home. My Catholic mother, too, followed her own conscience, and I thank her for it.
64
The rhythm method is about the most 'artificial' you can imagine. I didn't use it, but my Catholic best friend used that (and withdrawal, which was also against Church teaching but consistency is indeed the hobgoblin of small minds, I suppose). It strips all spontaneity from the sex act and, particularly if the woman is not perfectly regular, makes it fraught with anxiety. Love on the clock and desire by the calendar.
Of course, as Mr Egan touches on in his paragraph beginning 'Religions are at their best', the ultimate purpose is to get control of the believer, and revealed religions (not just Catholicism) do this through restrictions. Not just sex, either. The more rules, the better, until, with luck, you can't hardly breathe without clearing it with a priest that you're doing it the right way or 'Old Nobodaddy' (William Blake) will give it to you, but good, after you die.
I do believe the need for rules, thoughtful teachings to produce ethical actions. But the rules regarding birth control serve only two purposes: to produce the maximum number of children, on the assumption most would die anyway; and to assert the kind of priestly control Jim Jones or the Rev Sun Myung Moon had over their cults.
Of course, as Mr Egan touches on in his paragraph beginning 'Religions are at their best', the ultimate purpose is to get control of the believer, and revealed religions (not just Catholicism) do this through restrictions. Not just sex, either. The more rules, the better, until, with luck, you can't hardly breathe without clearing it with a priest that you're doing it the right way or 'Old Nobodaddy' (William Blake) will give it to you, but good, after you die.
I do believe the need for rules, thoughtful teachings to produce ethical actions. But the rules regarding birth control serve only two purposes: to produce the maximum number of children, on the assumption most would die anyway; and to assert the kind of priestly control Jim Jones or the Rev Sun Myung Moon had over their cults.
17
Hard to have faith in faith when someone decides they know what God wants and that all should comply or face damnation.
The reason people are becoming secularist in droves? Education. So much of religious doctrine (of all stripes) contradicts reality. While religious leaders sit and contemplate how everyone should be, and then shout dire warnings about God's harsh judgment for failure to comply, we keep discovering that those same people are fully hypocritical, unable to reconcile their 'virtuous' ethics with the utilitarian ethical disasters that result.
Four words - 'be fruitful and multiply' - are the foundation of Catholic doctrine prohibiting birth control. The world's population today is about 7.2 Billion, and our resources are dwindling fast. What will Catholicism (or any other religion) have to say about the ethical disasters we face from overpopulation? Will their God judge them harshly for the reckless destruction of His planet?
Instead of honest truth - watch the spin come and suddenly it will be Satan's fault. And if there is a God, and a Satan, both will continue to play their games while we continue to destroy oursleves and deny our own belief systems are at root.
The reason people are becoming secularist in droves? Education. So much of religious doctrine (of all stripes) contradicts reality. While religious leaders sit and contemplate how everyone should be, and then shout dire warnings about God's harsh judgment for failure to comply, we keep discovering that those same people are fully hypocritical, unable to reconcile their 'virtuous' ethics with the utilitarian ethical disasters that result.
Four words - 'be fruitful and multiply' - are the foundation of Catholic doctrine prohibiting birth control. The world's population today is about 7.2 Billion, and our resources are dwindling fast. What will Catholicism (or any other religion) have to say about the ethical disasters we face from overpopulation? Will their God judge them harshly for the reckless destruction of His planet?
Instead of honest truth - watch the spin come and suddenly it will be Satan's fault. And if there is a God, and a Satan, both will continue to play their games while we continue to destroy oursleves and deny our own belief systems are at root.
18
Dear Mr. Egan,
"The first clergyman was the first charlatan who met the first fool". Voltaire
"Be fruitful and multiply". Reportedly words from "The Great Jehovah"
The "word" of god versus the "word" of man.
One suggests that religion is nothing but a scam designed to control people and control money with which to control people.
The other just tells us to go out and, well, "breed like rabbits".
In Voltaire's instance, I can be reasonably certain he wrote those words or something close to it; Voltaire actually existed.
The second is from a book that is accepted by many as "The Word Of God" but was written by people god appeared to/talked to/sent angelic messages to, etc.
In short, one is from a distinct "reality".
The other from some murky writings of mythical characters supposedly giving us "guidelines" to live by but interpreted by special people who have the "inside line" to speak to the almighty.
I won't denigrate any who believe in their religion; if this crutch helps them then it is a good thing. The bad thing is allowing these religious "screeds" to be the rule of the land. Pope Francis is nothing new; he's the head salesperson for the Catholic Church. His "tone" is a bit softer and soothing but, all in all, he's done nothing new and I further assume that if a Catholic woman uses "birth control" and doesn't confess it, she will burn in eternity forever.
Soothing message is it not?
"The first clergyman was the first charlatan who met the first fool". Voltaire
"Be fruitful and multiply". Reportedly words from "The Great Jehovah"
The "word" of god versus the "word" of man.
One suggests that religion is nothing but a scam designed to control people and control money with which to control people.
The other just tells us to go out and, well, "breed like rabbits".
In Voltaire's instance, I can be reasonably certain he wrote those words or something close to it; Voltaire actually existed.
The second is from a book that is accepted by many as "The Word Of God" but was written by people god appeared to/talked to/sent angelic messages to, etc.
In short, one is from a distinct "reality".
The other from some murky writings of mythical characters supposedly giving us "guidelines" to live by but interpreted by special people who have the "inside line" to speak to the almighty.
I won't denigrate any who believe in their religion; if this crutch helps them then it is a good thing. The bad thing is allowing these religious "screeds" to be the rule of the land. Pope Francis is nothing new; he's the head salesperson for the Catholic Church. His "tone" is a bit softer and soothing but, all in all, he's done nothing new and I further assume that if a Catholic woman uses "birth control" and doesn't confess it, she will burn in eternity forever.
Soothing message is it not?
20
George Bernard Shaw noted that when he was a small child, his nurse disciplined him by telling him that if he didn't behave, the cock would come down the chimney after him. (He had no idea why this would be so intimidating, but it was.) As he grew older he could develop more sophisticated rationales for behaving himself. (His novella 'Adventures of the Black Girl in Her Search for God' presents a parable of philosophical development.) Philosophers have also posited an ascending hierarchy of ethical development, with 'because I say so' at the bottom, up through 'because you will be punished if you don't' and eventually reaching right and wrong. Religion serves its purpose for those unable to get past the bottom run of the ethical ladder. 'Why should I not [kill, steal, rape, etc.]?' 'Because the cock will come down the chimney after you.' The problem is not so much with religion - there will always be people on the 'because I said so' and 'because you'll be punished' levels, who will need those absolute rules - but the specifics. Not that religion dictates, but what it dictates.
5
Clear heresy. Worse yet, based solely on unsubstantiated speculation. I risk excommunication.
When Christianity was born, back in Rome, the number of Christians was small and their persecution was relentless. More important, there were many communicable diseases and many died for want of a cure. Among the most vulnerable were the young. That situation continued for centuries, well past the time of Benjamin Franklin. And, through that time, it was typical to give birth to12 and to have only two or three survive to adulthood. In that context, the rabbit thing was a sensible adaptation. I speculate that the word of God was not a religious matter at all. I await that bolt of lightning.
When Christianity was born, back in Rome, the number of Christians was small and their persecution was relentless. More important, there were many communicable diseases and many died for want of a cure. Among the most vulnerable were the young. That situation continued for centuries, well past the time of Benjamin Franklin. And, through that time, it was typical to give birth to12 and to have only two or three survive to adulthood. In that context, the rabbit thing was a sensible adaptation. I speculate that the word of God was not a religious matter at all. I await that bolt of lightning.
19
I get very angry when I see large Catholic and Mormon families. It's pure arrogance for them to overpopulate our planet. No couple should have more than three children. The family with 20 kids is beyond shameful and People Magazine puts them on the cover. What has happened to common sense?!
44
Agreed! Given the situation with human population growth in the world today, we all need to start bringing cultural pressure down on these reproductive hogs. That is exactly what I think every time I see a family with more than 3 kids: selfish, stupid, reproductive hogs! The earth cannot sustainably support the number of humans here now; adding more than a replacemnt for you and your partner is an act of greed and nihilism.
20
Genetic narcissism really is an affront to the whole planet.
5
Your mother made the right choice, Tim Egan. NO MEN ON EARTH (and that includes Good Pope Francis, leader of millions of Catholic believers) has the right to force their opinions and ideas and misinformation about WOMEN'S BODIES on women. Your Mother's decision was the correct one to save her life from unending child-bearing and all the miseries (never mind joys, they are irrelevant) that entails. Miseries which have confounded and crippled and overpopulated our planet and reinforced ignorance and compounded the ills of gross income inequality which informs our egregiously unjust culture today. The rich get richer, the poor get babies, the babies and their mothers suffer the cruelty of man's inhumanity to women. Even Jesus - son of the Jewish woman, Mary - who died at 37 crucified by Romans, did not inflict the preaching of unending pregnancies on the women in his time. Murder of disobedient women (and "infidels", iconoclasts and "blasphemers") is prevalent in ignorant societies today; stoning women to death or beheading, or shooting with guns, or ordering how they shall dress in strange tents covering every inch of flesh, let alone proscribing driving a motor vehicle. Were not talking about rabbits and baby bunnies here, Tim, we're talking about the rights of women over their own bodies. Women's right to save their bodies from incessant child-bearing (and the dicta of the priesthood, and ignorant believers of whatever tribe, sect, religion they adhere to) is SUPREME.
58
My mom, a Protestant, had two stillborns after me due to Rh negative factor. My Dad, a devout Catholic who wanted a big family, used his Jesuit schooling to play along with my mom's form of contraception.
I was appalled at the Pope's rabbit comment, not for what he said but for the logical thing he left out. "You don't have to breed like rabbits," he says. Followed by a huge empty silence that should have been filled with the value and necessity of birth control. To force women to practice "natural" methods--whatever they are, because the only truly effective natural method is abstinence--doesn't solve the problem. It's like saying, don't eat so much and then forcing them to ingest a big meal.
Until the Church gets real about contraception, believers will either follow the rules, or, talk to some sane priests and use birth control, as more than 80% of US Catholic women do. There are so many archaic relics from the middle ages, including every sexual act in marriage must be of procreative intent, it makes the head spin.
If marriage is a sacrament, so is the love that forms that sacrament. Duly married Catholic couples must be allowed to live their love in and outside the bedroom--sex doesn't stop at the last child. I hope this Pope has the courage to take on the Catholic theology of sex and sin.
It's centuries overdue.
I was appalled at the Pope's rabbit comment, not for what he said but for the logical thing he left out. "You don't have to breed like rabbits," he says. Followed by a huge empty silence that should have been filled with the value and necessity of birth control. To force women to practice "natural" methods--whatever they are, because the only truly effective natural method is abstinence--doesn't solve the problem. It's like saying, don't eat so much and then forcing them to ingest a big meal.
Until the Church gets real about contraception, believers will either follow the rules, or, talk to some sane priests and use birth control, as more than 80% of US Catholic women do. There are so many archaic relics from the middle ages, including every sexual act in marriage must be of procreative intent, it makes the head spin.
If marriage is a sacrament, so is the love that forms that sacrament. Duly married Catholic couples must be allowed to live their love in and outside the bedroom--sex doesn't stop at the last child. I hope this Pope has the courage to take on the Catholic theology of sex and sin.
It's centuries overdue.
112
Why are we reading Catholic JUNK in the Times anyway. The pope is a religious leader. Religion is very much separate from State. And has no business in the news. Any time it comes up i turn it off. The reason?
Because Religion is the main reason for wars in the middle east. And dates back to the 1400's. Religion Starts wars all over our world. Religion in the news brings up anger, hate, and distrust. This anger overwhelms the individual who is a huge believer in that Religion. Then they want to fight the individual or make stupid comments directed at the individual who made the comments. And we then have a religious war a war that will never end. Religions do not teach turn the other cheek they teach only one God the God they believe in. This infuriates followers of other religions when someone does not agree with them that their god is the only god.
Why is it we need everyone to believe what we believe?
Oh Well the Media could much better serve the public not reporting anything religious based. This would calm the masses and we would have a safer world. After all I don't care what you call your god all I care about is keeping him, her or IT out of my life and face.
Again I fought for all freedoms to choose but Religion is not my favorite subject especially since the government got them involved in caring for people. And they keep wanting exemptions for them selves when it comes to the basic human rights of all Citizens of the United States of America Following the laws.
Because Religion is the main reason for wars in the middle east. And dates back to the 1400's. Religion Starts wars all over our world. Religion in the news brings up anger, hate, and distrust. This anger overwhelms the individual who is a huge believer in that Religion. Then they want to fight the individual or make stupid comments directed at the individual who made the comments. And we then have a religious war a war that will never end. Religions do not teach turn the other cheek they teach only one God the God they believe in. This infuriates followers of other religions when someone does not agree with them that their god is the only god.
Why is it we need everyone to believe what we believe?
Oh Well the Media could much better serve the public not reporting anything religious based. This would calm the masses and we would have a safer world. After all I don't care what you call your god all I care about is keeping him, her or IT out of my life and face.
Again I fought for all freedoms to choose but Religion is not my favorite subject especially since the government got them involved in caring for people. And they keep wanting exemptions for them selves when it comes to the basic human rights of all Citizens of the United States of America Following the laws.
13
This is a very important point. Politicians need religions to guarantee votes, so it is understandable that they contiue to provide lip service to such sillyness. But the media should long since have moved on and started ignoring all aspects of the superstitious nonsense that is religion. Belief in a god or gods is no more logical than belief in Santa Claus, and it is about time the media started saying so. We cannot move further toward peace and enlightenment if the media refuses to call people out for beliefs that are illogical and unsupported by evidence or science.
6
Religions usually started out with one charismatic person pondering and then declaring some useful observations about living well, about avoiding unnecessary conflict and keeping a society civil. To illustrate, that person would usually convey some fables, construct a few analogies and tell some poignant stories about the universally shared experience of human life. These founders all presented some good ideas, convinced enough listeners to live by those ideas and made a place for themselves in historical memory.
Then the vultures landed.
These original founders accumulated a whole lot of opportunistic, clever followers who took those ideas and built institutional structures around them - structures that, along with promoting the good ideas, added a growing mountain of scholarly, abstruse text and rituals. These copious "refinements" kept a lot of people busy, made a lot of people wealthy and helped herd the followers into tribal camps, arming them with a divine pretext for seeing non-members as a dehumanized "other".
It's easy to harm an "other".
The founders' ideas were used to instigate warfare - the very human tendency towards acquisitive violence those ideas were intended to prevent.
And those opportunistic, clever little folks are still at it.
They never left.
Then the vultures landed.
These original founders accumulated a whole lot of opportunistic, clever followers who took those ideas and built institutional structures around them - structures that, along with promoting the good ideas, added a growing mountain of scholarly, abstruse text and rituals. These copious "refinements" kept a lot of people busy, made a lot of people wealthy and helped herd the followers into tribal camps, arming them with a divine pretext for seeing non-members as a dehumanized "other".
It's easy to harm an "other".
The founders' ideas were used to instigate warfare - the very human tendency towards acquisitive violence those ideas were intended to prevent.
And those opportunistic, clever little folks are still at it.
They never left.
5
Renee, if religion is such a threat to the world (and I don't deny it, though I might not give it the status you attribute), what do you gain by avowedly ignoring it? If you oppose what they are doing, how can you do so if you ignore how and why they seem to be doing it? Is your head in the sand? Case study one: Don't vote for people whose public stand is based on religious ground!
1
This was my mother too. when she reached her late 30s. It was well known that older mothers had more Down syndrome babies. She had managed to keep her brood to 3, I'm not sure how. So she talked to the parish priest. He told her to do be guided by her conscience. Her conscience told her that having children, you couldn't afford or might not be able to take care of, was wrong. She had a tubal. This was the common sense approach to sexuality. She did opine on occasion about how could an unmarried man tell women and families to have more kids. Who paid for and cared for those extra kids? Not the church. She continued to go to church, support the church, and pray her rosary every morning. Me, I quit the religion realizing that it was male dominated and lacked common sense.
77
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Oh, oh, oh oh -
You may say that it's easy,
But your'e not the only one.
I hope some day you may join us,
And the world will live as one.
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too,
Imagine all the people,
Living life in peace.
John Lennon - Imagine
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Oh, oh, oh oh -
You may say that it's easy,
But your'e not the only one.
I hope some day you may join us,
And the world will live as one.
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too,
Imagine all the people,
Living life in peace.
John Lennon - Imagine
10
Good for your mother! I think she is the kind of Catholic woman Pope Francis is trying to champion as he wrestles the church out of the dark ages.
12
I'm one of five children born over a six-year period. My Catholic mom was advised after the fifth child that another might kill her. My dad, still Protestant at that time, started using condoms. My mom went to confession and told this to the priest, who was stuck between the thinking that a wife should obey her husband and the church's ban on birth control. Finally, he responded in the confessional, "Well, you'd better not enjoy it." Then gave her absolution. Hilarious.
Old, "celibate" men have no right telling women what they can do with their bodies. Excellent op-ed, Mr. Egan. Thank you.
Old, "celibate" men have no right telling women what they can do with their bodies. Excellent op-ed, Mr. Egan. Thank you.
457
This is MRS. The priest recognized reality and only made commentary in keeping with his priestly duties. His admonition was only because of his seat in that confessional and nothing more. His absolution was appropriate and it gave your mother the confidence she needed to go forward with family planning matters as she and your dad saw fit. You can bet your bottom dollar that priest didn't practice celibacy, either!
4
There is the story of the priest who was asked what a woman should do while being raped. "Sit back and enjoy it" was his answer. Clueless.
Saying that, my uncle who has been a priest for 60 years, is a saint. Working with the poor and displaced he is the priest Jesus might have envisioned.
Humans are curious and complex creatures.
Saying that, my uncle who has been a priest for 60 years, is a saint. Working with the poor and displaced he is the priest Jesus might have envisioned.
Humans are curious and complex creatures.
6
My Roman Catholic mother sang in the choir every Sunday but never would have let the parish priest dictate her reproductive choices.
137
Tim, you wrote:
"Religions are at their best when they deal with the theological realm or big global issues. Religions are at their worst when they muddle in sex, and question whom you can love. "
I'd argue that they're at their best when they inspire individuals to interpolate in contemporary terms the luminous ideals and example of their original avatars (assuming that the avatar indeed exhibited such ideals in the first place...) - and thus inspire others to a greater commitment to spiritual, emotional, and intellectual development, and with these to the inevitable progression of the whole.
While it's fashionable nowadays to imagine that religions only convey baggage, I would argue that human nature abhors a void - and if one isn't consciously seeking to emulate a Jesus, a Buddha, or an Arjuna, they might well find themselves unconsciously seeking to emulate a Trump or a Kardashian (which I would further argue is the modern analogy for having lost or sold one's soul).
"Religions are at their best when they deal with the theological realm or big global issues. Religions are at their worst when they muddle in sex, and question whom you can love. "
I'd argue that they're at their best when they inspire individuals to interpolate in contemporary terms the luminous ideals and example of their original avatars (assuming that the avatar indeed exhibited such ideals in the first place...) - and thus inspire others to a greater commitment to spiritual, emotional, and intellectual development, and with these to the inevitable progression of the whole.
While it's fashionable nowadays to imagine that religions only convey baggage, I would argue that human nature abhors a void - and if one isn't consciously seeking to emulate a Jesus, a Buddha, or an Arjuna, they might well find themselves unconsciously seeking to emulate a Trump or a Kardashian (which I would further argue is the modern analogy for having lost or sold one's soul).
38
Unitarian Universalists don't have Jesus or Buddha to emulate. UUs are compassionate activists who possess high morals without doctrine to follow, in fact, to distract them from doing the right thing.
5
I am a catholic in lifelong recovery. A product of catholic schools through college. The church's policy that women go to heaven if they die in childbirth and their spouses can marry another woman to raise the remaining kids, which I learned I. Eighth grade lead me to abandon the church immediately. I do not follow any religion. I am perfectly comfortable with meditating and following my own strict ethics. Religions first goal seems to be to inculcate people with the belief that they are unable to determine the correct path I life without the grip of the clergy. I remember a manager who once told me if he didn't have religion ( he was catholic), he'd go,out and kill people because it would be all right. I consider that pathetic thinking. So the shibboleth that we'd all turn into trump or k worshipers is ridiculous.
9
You are right that human nature abhors a void. Look at all the non religious ideologies that people ascribe to that have very destructive effects. Communism, facism, and anarchism are examples of ideologies that have led to great destruction. Free market fundamentalism is responsible for the meltdown of the international economy.
There are some religions that have done exactly what you are suggesting. The Unitarian Universalists base their religion on principles rather than dogma. Having principles like these to help guide your life is much more realistic than living by a set of simplistic, black and white rules that make the decision for you.
http://altreligion.about.com/od/beliefsandcreeds/tp/Seven_UU_Principles.htm
There are some religions that have done exactly what you are suggesting. The Unitarian Universalists base their religion on principles rather than dogma. Having principles like these to help guide your life is much more realistic than living by a set of simplistic, black and white rules that make the decision for you.
http://altreligion.about.com/od/beliefsandcreeds/tp/Seven_UU_Principles.htm
3
Pope Francis strikes me as a bright, vital, youngish manager who is named to take over a dinosaur of a corporation, one whose conception of the world is stodgy at best.
How far can he change the trajectory of the company without causing the Board of Directors, which is composed mainly of those who incessantly pine about the "good old days," to rein him in or even push him aside?
As Pope Francis is embraced by the world, his ability to influence his organization is likely to diminish. Remember, religions have seldom been enthusiastic about overtly adapting to the world (the only exception I can think of occurred during the time of the beloved John XXIII, whose reforms were retrenched at least in part by Paul VI) because to dilute the brand is to beg the question of why the brand at all?
We people like to think that we're more than merely creatures. We like to think that although we are physically Earthbound, our spirits can soar throughout the Universe. We support institutions that will enable us in such thinking.
The price paid by those who entertain moderate fantasies is to be ruled by (usually) men who have cast adrift from reality, men whose house-of-cards construction of the universe includes, say, a hierarchy of angels and a place where minor sinners are sent after they die where they are tortured for just a few eons.
It's a feat if one can avoid one tentacle of such a spiritual octopus without simultaneously ridding oneself completely of the creature's embrace.
How far can he change the trajectory of the company without causing the Board of Directors, which is composed mainly of those who incessantly pine about the "good old days," to rein him in or even push him aside?
As Pope Francis is embraced by the world, his ability to influence his organization is likely to diminish. Remember, religions have seldom been enthusiastic about overtly adapting to the world (the only exception I can think of occurred during the time of the beloved John XXIII, whose reforms were retrenched at least in part by Paul VI) because to dilute the brand is to beg the question of why the brand at all?
We people like to think that we're more than merely creatures. We like to think that although we are physically Earthbound, our spirits can soar throughout the Universe. We support institutions that will enable us in such thinking.
The price paid by those who entertain moderate fantasies is to be ruled by (usually) men who have cast adrift from reality, men whose house-of-cards construction of the universe includes, say, a hierarchy of angels and a place where minor sinners are sent after they die where they are tortured for just a few eons.
It's a feat if one can avoid one tentacle of such a spiritual octopus without simultaneously ridding oneself completely of the creature's embrace.
57
The Pope, while trying to save women from ravaged bodies after many births, also re-affirmed that the RC joke endures: celibate men in skirts telling worried women to trust in the pot-luck of the rhythm method. No pill, no condom, no change.
Rhythm has too many failures, dissatisfies the affectionate, and works least well in the developing world. Thus the Pope giveth with one hand and talketh away with the next. Business as usual, while Western churches close faster than bridges in NJ.
Rhythm has too many failures, dissatisfies the affectionate, and works least well in the developing world. Thus the Pope giveth with one hand and talketh away with the next. Business as usual, while Western churches close faster than bridges in NJ.
184
Maybe Orthodox rabbis should start telling their female flock to have fewer babies. The have even larger families than Catholics.
8
'that men in clerical authority have no business telling women what to do with their bodies'. How misinformed and just plain stupid are your remarks. The Church's moral teachings are related to the formation of conscience, nothing else. Obvious you have never taken a course in Catholic theology at the college level. The idea that religion is best in dealing with global issues, can best be seen as nonsense. All religion, if it is to be that, relates to ones own personal existence and how God relates to that. The Catholic doctrine about sex is grounded in not pleasure, but in procreation. It is for that reason our culture can never really understand what our faith is all about. I will pray that you may become more enlightened in what the real teachings of the Catholic faith are.
7
If it were indeed kept personal the there would be no issue. If the Bishops kept their opinions within their Sunday sermons there would be no issue.
Not everyone views the world through religious doctrine and Catholic Bishops should limit their preaching to the faithful. as you said it is personal.
Not everyone views the world through religious doctrine and Catholic Bishops should limit their preaching to the faithful. as you said it is personal.
12
I pray that perhaps someday, Coolhunter, you will join us in the 21st Century, and accept that the world doesn't need more people to strain it's already strained resources and that it is indeed true that " men in clerical authority" DO NOT have any business telling women what to do with their bodies. This has nothing to do with faith... And everything to do with subjugating women. To the Clergy and the white male politicians I say MYOB!
36
Because, as a culture we don't understand that doctrine is related to procreation, and so we can never truly have faith? I don't know if that is more Puritan or Taliban, but it certainly can clear out the church pews from coast to coast.
29
In 1966 after 2 miscarriages one crib death and 5 living children within 8 yrs. I was under much stress. I found myself living up to the churches instruction on being a good Irish Catholic. I as a person needed someone other than myself to allow me to use birth control and not go to Hell.
I went to confession and told the priest about my quandary. He told me I could use the pill. I did.
I forever bless that man.
I went to confession and told the priest about my quandary. He told me I could use the pill. I did.
I forever bless that man.
365
You are a very impressive woman. Too many of us don't have the strength you had.
2
I never understood why religious people feel they have to follow every single "rule" or precept of their religion. Surely, in a modern society, people should feel free to interpret some behavioral aspects of their religion. Yet, obviously, many Catholics, Muslims and Jews feel they cannot deviate from doctrine.
4
Catholic rebellion on matters of family planning and birth control comes as no surprise, and the modern economy with two-income families with mothers working full-time make the society that Egan describes economically untenable, regardless of the moral message that the church tries to convey. Birth control itself has been widely and continuously available since the 1960s; and at least until the current election cycle, it was generally considered to be a closed issue.
This is a different society from the one I grew up in seven decades ago. Bishops and priests no longer wield the moral authority that they used to have, and that moral authority has been irrevocably damaged by the church's toleration of sexual abuse of children by rogue members of its clergy.
Pope Francis undoubtedly understands the current bind he is in, but the institution he leads is further behind the curve then he is on this issue.
This is a different society from the one I grew up in seven decades ago. Bishops and priests no longer wield the moral authority that they used to have, and that moral authority has been irrevocably damaged by the church's toleration of sexual abuse of children by rogue members of its clergy.
Pope Francis undoubtedly understands the current bind he is in, but the institution he leads is further behind the curve then he is on this issue.
105
Growing up Catholic and having to attend religion classes because my father said so I saw the Catholic Church in its true light. Greedy the priest would start out Sunday sermon with give more money to the church we need it. And all the poor kids in the school were thrown out to make room for paying customers who were from other religions.
Then having to endure the priest in a little room while he told us our bodies were not our own we had to submit to our husbands. And we couldn't use birth control or do anything to prevent pregnancy. And to top it off Telling us young women that if it is a choice between our lives and the life of the unborn child we had to, under the threat of excommunication, pick the child over our own life. And I am told the comment by the priest was when the young man asked "Why would i pick the child over my wife" Answer "Your seed is most important you can replace your wife easily".
That was my last day in the catholic church. i had to continue in school till they got rid of all us poor people. But at least I had made up my mind that religion was not a good thing. Imagine killing an innocent woman for a belief?
No I moved away from religion and the male crap they threw around.
Also seeing a drunk priest who was the head of the church in the area i lived in Father Kane who beat you with a cane all the time and was drunk all of the time and even served mass drunk, Who's only concern was his Big Cadillac the sacramental wine, and his whiskey.
Then having to endure the priest in a little room while he told us our bodies were not our own we had to submit to our husbands. And we couldn't use birth control or do anything to prevent pregnancy. And to top it off Telling us young women that if it is a choice between our lives and the life of the unborn child we had to, under the threat of excommunication, pick the child over our own life. And I am told the comment by the priest was when the young man asked "Why would i pick the child over my wife" Answer "Your seed is most important you can replace your wife easily".
That was my last day in the catholic church. i had to continue in school till they got rid of all us poor people. But at least I had made up my mind that religion was not a good thing. Imagine killing an innocent woman for a belief?
No I moved away from religion and the male crap they threw around.
Also seeing a drunk priest who was the head of the church in the area i lived in Father Kane who beat you with a cane all the time and was drunk all of the time and even served mass drunk, Who's only concern was his Big Cadillac the sacramental wine, and his whiskey.
13
This is MRS. It is Pope Francis who has the power to write that encyclical that proclaims reality, too. It's time to get cracking with the pen.
1
"Religions are at their best when they deal with ... big global issues." Mr. Egan, with all due respect, religions are never at their best because that is not their goal. Even when they are not actively extorting wealth or coercively trying to control women's sexuality, they are forever trying to manipulate and sometimes literally conquer the larger world. I do not wish to pick on Catholicism because in truth all religions are equally guilty, but the Crusades, the Conquest of the Americas, and the Inquisition are three pretty good examples of issues in which the Catholic Church contributed to an increase, rather than a decrease of death, destruction, and human suffering on a global scale.
234
Oh yes I agree Global war is what they do best starting one or two and or maybe a dozen all over the globe? Yes taking money from the poor telling them giving their last penny will buy them a place in heaven. Yes I agree Global Wars Bought to you By Religion. Even when i was in Vietnam being shelled by 155 mm rockets I still refused Religion. I haven't prayed to a invisible God since I was 13 and will never do so again. I will never step foot into a abusive, mean spirited, money hungry, lying, woman hating, mean priest, mean nun, Priest who abuse children both by sexual abuse and physical abuse beating them with heavy umbrellas Nasty Catholic Church again. Hating women is the first reason but all the others do apply.
I understand the first comments will be against my gender, then the next will be saying I am lying, and lastly someone will say I am less educated and shouldn't be listened to. But as an old woman i don't lie. No reason to. And as a Veteran i saw the priest praying to god and wanting his mother when the bombs started falling showing his true beliefs.
I understand the first comments will be against my gender, then the next will be saying I am lying, and lastly someone will say I am less educated and shouldn't be listened to. But as an old woman i don't lie. No reason to. And as a Veteran i saw the priest praying to god and wanting his mother when the bombs started falling showing his true beliefs.
7
be a good person that's what God wants
44
When people recognize the doctrinal antipathy to birth control for what it really is, maybe we'll make some progress. It's simply a recruiting tool to supply a large membership base for a corporate enterprise and NOTHING else.
183
Some polls have shown that 95 % of Catholic women in child bearing years use some type of birth control. That is testimony to being able to think for yourself.
Celibate men should mind their own business.
Celibate men should mind their own business.
414
Why do you assume that these are celibate men? Many are not.
9
As if they are all celibate!
6
Yo Tim, of course his comments wouldn't "bother" you; he didn't tell you or your gender to bear this burden, son. He told women to have the perfectly normal number of children, without a hint to what that number might actually be, while only having sex when you know you can't get pregnant, which for many women with irregular cycles, interrupted continually by unintended pregnancies is never, dude. Once he and his fellow popes convinced women to shoulder this incredible load, he ridicules and humiliates them by exceeding the number that is normal to this pope, as opposed to the last series of omniscient and infallible popes who screamed "let 'er rip or go to hell". Now do you see the problem with old celibate men barking orders exclusively to women? Has it ever occurred to you that zero Popes have ever issued encyclicals saying "don't use artificial meds to get it up?" No, likely because that drug is in high demand at the Vatican. Go outside and play little boys, while your mothers clean up, as there is still plenty of work to do here.
142
Prop Francis is the most stunning PR success of all time. His pronouncements have mollified the concerns of US liberals, who the church is financially dependent on, without moving doctrine or policy one whit to the left.
The Church still forbids the use of condoms and birth control, opposes abortion, have never condemned diocese in the developing world refusing communion to gays and have no intention of ever marrying gays, allowing priests to marry or ordain women.
But because Francis makes nice off the cuff remarks we are to believe the church is now filled with tolerance and progressivism and is no long the milestone around the neck of human progress it has been for millennia.
Being a nice reactionary doesn't make you less reactionary.
The Church still forbids the use of condoms and birth control, opposes abortion, have never condemned diocese in the developing world refusing communion to gays and have no intention of ever marrying gays, allowing priests to marry or ordain women.
But because Francis makes nice off the cuff remarks we are to believe the church is now filled with tolerance and progressivism and is no long the milestone around the neck of human progress it has been for millennia.
Being a nice reactionary doesn't make you less reactionary.
226
Perhaps the Pope understands how seriously the Church's position on contraception reduces its control over Catholics' lives. Its lack of credibility on birth control undermines Catholics' beliefs and compliance on other issues, especially those related to sexuality. Even regular Mass-attending financial contributors blithely and justifiably ignore many of its teachings. That's probably one reason why Catholic countries such as Brazil and Peru have some of the highest abortion rates in the world. Appearing more reasonable and progressive would be a good strategy, if that's what it is.
2
@Stephan Marcus: Hear, hear!
5
If you were correct, the Burke-Chaput wing of the church would not be in an uproar; they'd have seen the wink and the nod. No, this Jesuit pope is following a brand of Christianity that focuses on the poor and marginalized. Doctrinal change follows this change in perspective; it doesn't precede it.
3
Will Pope Francis still win the day
Or will reaction have its way?
Will Santorums prevail
To rant and to rail,
Will reaction be held at bay?
Or will reaction have its way?
Will Santorums prevail
To rant and to rail,
Will reaction be held at bay?
34
Thank you for this. As a single child, I grew up among many Cathlolic families, mostly Irish and Italian. 11 kids. 14 kids. Even one family with 21 kids. I thought this sounded like the best idea in the world, being a lonely only. Now it seems, well, a bit insane. Religions have nothing useful to contribute to the subject of reproduction. Period.
243
Thanks for supporting Pope Francis on this small step toward reason. As the eldest of 11 children from a working-class family, I was convinced as a young and very tired baby-sitter, mini-maid, and parentified child that a large family was not a good idea. It robbed me and my sister of our childhood. It made my Mom into an overwhelmed, emotional mess. Didn’t see Dad much since he worked 2 jobs, sometimes, a 3rd on weekends to support us. There was no money for medical or dental care; no money for college or to help get a start in life. It was lose-lose for everyone.
“…men in clerical authority have no business telling women what to do with their bodies. For that matter, neither do politicians.” I say a heartfelt AMEN!
“…men in clerical authority have no business telling women what to do with their bodies. For that matter, neither do politicians.” I say a heartfelt AMEN!
778
The teaching against "artificial" contraception is entirely based on a primary assumption in the Church's "Natural Law" which is philosophy and not science in the normal sense of the term. That assumption is that "sexual intercourse has the sole purpose of procreation". Normal, non-celibate people know that procreation, while highly important, is not the sole purpose of sexual intercourse. This distinction is all important with respect to the Church's teaching on all aspects of sexuality especially birth control.
120
My theory, which I have made before in these pages, is that sex in general is regarded as sinful by the major religions, but obviously necessary for procreation. Remember the Shakers? Why else does the dogma have the concepts of immaculate conception, virginal conception, clerical celibacy, proscriptions against homosexuality, sterilization, and masturbation, for the major examples? Of course there is a secondary benefit of this for the organized religion, unplanned reproduction multiplies the faithful.
47
Right. And we have the cult of :Blessed Mary, Ever Virgin." But what about Joseph? There's no cult of "Blessed Joseph, Ever Virgin." Now, what can they be hiding form us...>
11
One traditional way of reconciling the brothers and sisters of Jesus mentioned in the Gospels (Mark 6:3 and Matt, 13:55f) with the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity has been to suppose that Joseph, when he became affianced to the Virgin Mary, was already a widower and a father, so that the “brothers and sisters” were really half-siblings. Hence the tradition in sacred art of depicting Joseph as an old man, followed even in Protestant Appalachia in “The Cherry Tree Carol”: “Joseph was an old man,/ And an old man was he ….”
3
I am not a religious person, but I have a hard time understanding those who claim a direct line to some deity and claim
1) half his creation--the female half--are unworthy of autonomy, power, or even a modicum of respect, and
2) the obvious detriment to the non-human (as well as the human) parts of our world caused by overpopulation should not only be ignored, but deemed sinful to try to ameliorate by controlling population growth.
Good for your mom, Mr Egan, and for the countless other women who have seen that dictates about their worth, their health, and their right to self-determination that have been made by men of the cloth originated with those men rather than the being they claim to worship.
1) half his creation--the female half--are unworthy of autonomy, power, or even a modicum of respect, and
2) the obvious detriment to the non-human (as well as the human) parts of our world caused by overpopulation should not only be ignored, but deemed sinful to try to ameliorate by controlling population growth.
Good for your mom, Mr Egan, and for the countless other women who have seen that dictates about their worth, their health, and their right to self-determination that have been made by men of the cloth originated with those men rather than the being they claim to worship.
300
Just like the relationship between predator and prey, the more primitive the religion, the greater its opposition to birth-control, and the more pain its poorer members suffer.
152