Never agree with Mr. Douthat but generally do this time. Still, the Republican fixation on Obama, tethered to a most catastrophic approaches to foreign policy given our invasion of Iraq. The status quo would have suited us better. And to site the exception of blood and treasure of the great pretender, GWB, (how many times did his smirk when he thought he said something smart), and his surrogate hand rubbing father, Mr. Cheney, as an offhand minor difference. How many billions or more of dollars and how many thousands upon thousands of lives, yes, the innocent Iraqi's also matter. Oh well, I guess this as fair and balanced that we will get here.
4
So Ross, you are ready to support alternative energy in a big way and break the stranglehold of oil despots, right?
Ross?
Ross?
26
"For George W. Bush, or at least his ambitious advisers, "....
Here Obama’s experiences are of a piece with Bush’s, albeit without the same cost in blood and treasure....
And here we see the path to redemption for Bush, who should be remembered as a disaster sandwiched between too excellent presidents. His evil advisers made him do it, and it wasn't really that bad if you ignore all the dead Americans.
Here Obama’s experiences are of a piece with Bush’s, albeit without the same cost in blood and treasure....
And here we see the path to redemption for Bush, who should be remembered as a disaster sandwiched between too excellent presidents. His evil advisers made him do it, and it wasn't really that bad if you ignore all the dead Americans.
10
"Whatever judgment King Abddullah finds himself facing now, ..." There is no judgment there,
he simply
joined the rest of the
former ARAMCO board of directors to reminisce about the good old days.
he simply
joined the rest of the
former ARAMCO board of directors to reminisce about the good old days.
5
What? " . . . our Saudi nightmare is a long way from being finished."
The only nightmare is the one that our body-politic sees in the mirror. Oil prices are down, alllright, and how to Americans respond? Big, heavy, low-mileage pickup trucks are flying off the lots, while vehicles that get 30-40+ MPG are gathering dust. Sure, we could be energy independent in the US but that would mean sacrifice, struggle and some pain, something the public is loathe to endure.
We didn't get the message during the embargo and we still haven't seen the light. The Saudis are selling a product that we all seem to love. Don't blame them for our weakness, look in the mirror for the answer.
The only nightmare is the one that our body-politic sees in the mirror. Oil prices are down, alllright, and how to Americans respond? Big, heavy, low-mileage pickup trucks are flying off the lots, while vehicles that get 30-40+ MPG are gathering dust. Sure, we could be energy independent in the US but that would mean sacrifice, struggle and some pain, something the public is loathe to endure.
We didn't get the message during the embargo and we still haven't seen the light. The Saudis are selling a product that we all seem to love. Don't blame them for our weakness, look in the mirror for the answer.
20
The US doesn't need Saudi Arabia.
However, time and again the US has been seduced with arms sales and big construction contracts to do the Saudi's bidding.
However, time and again the US has been seduced with arms sales and big construction contracts to do the Saudi's bidding.
4
What should be apparent to Ross if he reads his own article is that no country or any US President can shape the government of another into a democracy. It is up to the citizens of that nation should they so choose to reshape their government. It should also be apparent to Ross that religion corrupts government. Islam has a strangle hold on the Saudi government just as we are seeing all of the problems with "religion creep" into our own. Secular democracies perform best and history teaches that.
Ross touted Jeb Bush the other day as his new Messiah for the GOP. Be careful what you wish for Ross, given the longstanding coziness and family business ties to the Saudi monarchy don't expect any change in US relations. It is just one dynasty dealing with another.
Ross touted Jeb Bush the other day as his new Messiah for the GOP. Be careful what you wish for Ross, given the longstanding coziness and family business ties to the Saudi monarchy don't expect any change in US relations. It is just one dynasty dealing with another.
12
pleasant dreams will come when our rehab from oil is complete
2
It would be the most delicious of ironies if China's vast production of solar cells is the catalyst that eventually topples the sadistic Islamic theocracies of Saudi Arabia and Iran.
11
Thoughts:
1. "Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.” Lord Palmerston (English Statesman, 1784-1865)
2. "Men can have friends, statesmen cannot." Charles de Gaulle
3. Until there is an Arab/Islamic analogue to the European/Christian Enlightenment there will never be a lasting "Arab Spring".
4. One day oil will either be gone or passé.
5. Much depends on which comes first, #3 or #4...
1. "Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.” Lord Palmerston (English Statesman, 1784-1865)
2. "Men can have friends, statesmen cannot." Charles de Gaulle
3. Until there is an Arab/Islamic analogue to the European/Christian Enlightenment there will never be a lasting "Arab Spring".
4. One day oil will either be gone or passé.
5. Much depends on which comes first, #3 or #4...
12
It seems that those who I thought were ill-informed or simply didn't understand politics or were simple minded might have been correct all these years when they would cry, "it's all about oil!" This article makes it seem that the Middle East politics is "all about oil". I never thought such a simple rationale could be so convoluted and endure for so long and cost so much treasure and spilled blood..
1
Amen Ross to most of your discourse. And I don't say that even in Church very often. Most - being the operative word. Where I diverge is when you compare our President as G.W.Bush with regards to loss of American lives and American treasure. Nothing could be further from the truth and You know it! Yes, Saudi Arabia remained a non-pariah in spite of every evil at home and in the ME spawned from That country. We turned a blind eye to their serious Human Rights' Violations losing our credibility in the rest of the world. Now that we no longer depend on them for their oil we should call them for what they are - a PARIAH and add the ' non ' to a another country - Iran.
2
Yes... except that the situation is much more complex than the writer thinks. One must look at issues in context, Saudi Arabia is a major economic and ploitical player in the world today. Some of the accusations leveled against the late king fall into the uninformed camp, the bigots' camp, or the prejudiced camp. The king was a moderate voice. He did so many good things given the circumstances and the tough culture he was in. I would respectfully rebut by saying that the response to the king's death by almost all world leaders says much more than what some here have voiced. Columns like this do not help in bridging gaps and bringing in better understanding.
6
The U.S. is actually in the odd and perplexing position of being handcuffed to both Saudi Arabia and to Israel. As president Obama said, if you have been doing the same thing for 50 years and it hasn't worked it is time to try something else.
16
Can we please put the awful phrase blood and treasure to rest. Why not just say death and money? We're not looting museums and archeological sites. We are ripping up dollar bills on a corrupt congress, an officer corps looking toward its main chance in retirement and corrupt companies in the US. Anything goes as far as spending money when it's our reelection time, our company, our service, and our personal greed. As for blood, let's not forget that the Bush administration created the war that killed far more Americans than 9/11 did because Daddy Bush was dissed and also killed far more innocents than we even know who had the misfortune to be born in Iraq. That awful phrase is something out of the medieval vocabulary and does not do anything to reveal the truth: war profits the few and murders the many.
12
So long as America refuses to take seriously what our dependence on oil has done to us, to the world, we will need "friends" like the Saudis: an invention of our needs that diminishes every claim we can make to decency or virtue. Republicans have thwarted every last effort to disjoin us from the profiteering of oil companies and what is Saudi Arabia but another subsidiary of corporate exploitation? The Democrats who've offered a different strategy have been defeated by The Money--- the rest are as bought and sold as their fellow Republican grifters. Earth will survive us, we won't. Is that a pity or perhaps so much the better? It won't matter if we continue on this course of homo hydrocarbonus.
8
In a world of the "politics of personal identity" and a world that knows little about the history of the Middle East it is easy to buy all the support for the Palestinians that is largely meaningless. Bringing peace and a Palestinian state will do little to end the internal war withing Islam and within the Arab World.
2
Why is it a nightmare for America? Saudis don't repress
Americans. If their people are unhappy let them demand
change. They are not. Again, the criticism is simply
based on values, prefrences and the political dispensation
different from America's. It becomes automatically bad
if it is different. America is free to cut their ties or atleast
cool off if they don't like Saudis way of life. What we have
done against the Soviets and now Russia can be done
against Saudi Arabia. Why are we so afraid to offend
Saudis despite the rhetoric of energy independence
from fracking?
Americans. If their people are unhappy let them demand
change. They are not. Again, the criticism is simply
based on values, prefrences and the political dispensation
different from America's. It becomes automatically bad
if it is different. America is free to cut their ties or atleast
cool off if they don't like Saudis way of life. What we have
done against the Soviets and now Russia can be done
against Saudi Arabia. Why are we so afraid to offend
Saudis despite the rhetoric of energy independence
from fracking?
3
Excellent column- and I rarely agree with you.
4
Imagine suggesting that it's time to reconsider the efficacy of empire...New colonialism.
1
You deplore the hypocrisy with respect to the Saudis of all our American administrations since FDR for what sin exactly? A compulsive gambler shoots craps with crooked dice when they are the only dice he has. Since the Saudi oil embargo in 1973 the American people through its congress could have executed multiple political strategies to reduce our consumption of Saudi oil. Everyone but van Winkle knows what our options were and why we never fixed our porselves rather than expecting we could change the Saudis. The capstone of our dependence on the Sausis was certified when within days of 9-11 the US government facilitated the secrete evacuation of Saudi nationals back to the kingdom. So,yes, everything you complain of is true. It is also irrelevant to any potential solution. Perhaps your next collumn can outline which three of 40 years of potentially effective political and economic strategies for reducing US demand and consumption of Saudi oil you favor.
So, yes, Saudia Arabia
So, yes, Saudia Arabia
5
FINALLY, a Douthat column with which I wholeheartedly agree. Saudi Arabia gave us Bin Laden, all but what, one or two of the 9/11/2001 terrorists and middle ages-level human rights violations.
But I wish you would have discussed, rather than alluded to, the one true reason for our shackling to the Saudis: oil. Period.
But I wish you would have discussed, rather than alluded to, the one true reason for our shackling to the Saudis: oil. Period.
4
Ross, you'd better check your water, as I think there must be something in it. We've agreed three times lately.
9
I agree with this agreement, and intend to have my own tap water tested.
7
Boy, do we need to read a lot more of this. The one thing missing from this article is some background on the statistic mentioned by Reza Aslan recently: that the Sauds have spent $100 billion in the last few decades promoting their ultraconservative (one might say, radical) strain of Islam, Wahhabism, to Muslim communities all around world.
America puts a cable guy in jail for selling a package of channels that includes one partially backed by Hamas - it was "material support for terrorism" that Hamas was getting a buck or two per month from a cable package - but embraces as friends those who shift millions of Muslims around the world to more fundamentalist, West-rejecting, violence-prone religious views. Simultaneously, they enrage Muslims of exactly that stripe by running a medieval monarchy, complete with beheadings and torture.
We need to be moving away from oil in general as fast as technologically practicable - and away from all Mideast oil as fast as affordable.
America puts a cable guy in jail for selling a package of channels that includes one partially backed by Hamas - it was "material support for terrorism" that Hamas was getting a buck or two per month from a cable package - but embraces as friends those who shift millions of Muslims around the world to more fundamentalist, West-rejecting, violence-prone religious views. Simultaneously, they enrage Muslims of exactly that stripe by running a medieval monarchy, complete with beheadings and torture.
We need to be moving away from oil in general as fast as technologically practicable - and away from all Mideast oil as fast as affordable.
27
We also need statistics on oil imports from Saudi Arabia.
How much are we dependent on them? May be not much.
Our production has increased by 40% in the last 4 or 5
years and we can meet the deficit from Candian,
Venezuelian and Brazilian oil. Most probably the
dependency is not high to make us helpless.
Most of the comments focus on oil but ignore billions
of dollars Saudis pump into our defence industry( always
a top priority for the politicians) and the surplus dollars
pumped into America banks ( friends of the politicians).
How much are we dependent on them? May be not much.
Our production has increased by 40% in the last 4 or 5
years and we can meet the deficit from Candian,
Venezuelian and Brazilian oil. Most probably the
dependency is not high to make us helpless.
Most of the comments focus on oil but ignore billions
of dollars Saudis pump into our defence industry( always
a top priority for the politicians) and the surplus dollars
pumped into America banks ( friends of the politicians).
1
There are few more vivid examples of the corrupting influence of oil on international politics. We profess to be friends - necessarily, we believe - with some of the most odious regimes on the planet. If nothing else, the embarrassment this generates ought to be one of the driving forces (no pun intended) behind weaning ourselves from this dangerous reliance on a commodity.
39
An interesting article until this paragraph towards the end:
"Meanwhile, the Saudis themselves are still there. ... the American interest in the stability of their kingdom, the continuation of the royal family’s corrupt and wicked rule, is if anything even stronger than before."
Why...? The U.S. will soon have no, zero, zip, nada national interest in Middle East oil. What's the U.S. national interest in keeping an Arab despot regime alive?
"Meanwhile, the Saudis themselves are still there. ... the American interest in the stability of their kingdom, the continuation of the royal family’s corrupt and wicked rule, is if anything even stronger than before."
Why...? The U.S. will soon have no, zero, zip, nada national interest in Middle East oil. What's the U.S. national interest in keeping an Arab despot regime alive?
2
As long as that part of the world has no interest in democracy or even being part of a nation as such, all they could ever have is some despot. Having a despot that gets along with the West is the very best situation that we could hope to have in place.
1
It's a sign of our slavish devotion to the Saudi monarchy that, although Kerry couldn't cut short his trip to India to go to the Charlie Hebdo demonstrations, Obama is cutting short his trip to India to pay his respects in Saudi Arabia. George Bush made the same mistake when he held the King's hand in Texas. It is the Saudi brand of Islam which has given Rise to Al Qaeda and ISIS.
We don't have to pander any more (if we ever did). We have plenty of oil of our own. If we want the Saudi's respect, we'll get it by not caving into Iran, not by Presidential homage to a dead tyrant,
We don't have to pander any more (if we ever did). We have plenty of oil of our own. If we want the Saudi's respect, we'll get it by not caving into Iran, not by Presidential homage to a dead tyrant,
9
Ross Douthat, an excellent lead in to a discussion that the president should be carrying out in private while maintaining the facade that says that Saudi Arabia is our ally.
Three points bear on this discussion:
1) We differ from Saudi Arabia only in degree. Our present Congress would like its own version of Sharia Law in the clothing of a Christian sheep (see Gemli comment). In support visit http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02h3hky where drone operator Brandon Bryant tells us how he sat in Nevada and targeted drone attacks that killed even civilians much more "cleanly" than Charlie Hebdo people were killed in Paris.
2) Read "Texas Refinery Is Saudi Foothold in the U.S." By CLIFFORD KRAUSS @ http://nyti.ms/12ntxDB where you will learn that Saudi Arabia Aramco is 50% owner of the Motiva refinery in Port Arthur, TX where Saudi crude will be refined.
3) Then visit the comments at This Cold House @ http://nyti.ms/1CM5gZB to learn that readers are firmly commited to fossil fuels as the favored means of heating their homes beyond the foreseeable future. A reply to my main comment (54 recommends) in which I suggested switching to renewable energy said that my suggestions were insults and even "goofy".
With that kind of thinking we will be locked in our embrace with our Saudi "brothers" for a long time to come.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Reminder: American in Sweden
Three points bear on this discussion:
1) We differ from Saudi Arabia only in degree. Our present Congress would like its own version of Sharia Law in the clothing of a Christian sheep (see Gemli comment). In support visit http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02h3hky where drone operator Brandon Bryant tells us how he sat in Nevada and targeted drone attacks that killed even civilians much more "cleanly" than Charlie Hebdo people were killed in Paris.
2) Read "Texas Refinery Is Saudi Foothold in the U.S." By CLIFFORD KRAUSS @ http://nyti.ms/12ntxDB where you will learn that Saudi Arabia Aramco is 50% owner of the Motiva refinery in Port Arthur, TX where Saudi crude will be refined.
3) Then visit the comments at This Cold House @ http://nyti.ms/1CM5gZB to learn that readers are firmly commited to fossil fuels as the favored means of heating their homes beyond the foreseeable future. A reply to my main comment (54 recommends) in which I suggested switching to renewable energy said that my suggestions were insults and even "goofy".
With that kind of thinking we will be locked in our embrace with our Saudi "brothers" for a long time to come.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Reminder: American in Sweden
7
Essentially, the Saudi Monarchy is a modern day version of medieval European monarchies . While we have benefited enormously from having a client regime in control of the oil & it's pricing, every body else in the ME resents the tyranny & corruption of the Saudi goverment ( except local tyrants ).
That includes leftists , secularists , pro-democracy activists, feminists, local average Joes & even the Muslims who believe in no seperation of state & religion. Our alliance with the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia is not worth the loss of credibility that we pay . Nor the blowback that is unfortunately probably inevitable.
When we had a choice to support people who share our ideals , we chose a tyranny that serves our geopolitical and economic interests. Perhaps we should care more in winning hearts & minds , and less about winning contracts & controlling the oil market via our proxy.
That includes leftists , secularists , pro-democracy activists, feminists, local average Joes & even the Muslims who believe in no seperation of state & religion. Our alliance with the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia is not worth the loss of credibility that we pay . Nor the blowback that is unfortunately probably inevitable.
When we had a choice to support people who share our ideals , we chose a tyranny that serves our geopolitical and economic interests. Perhaps we should care more in winning hearts & minds , and less about winning contracts & controlling the oil market via our proxy.
4
Ross, your depiction is correct as far as it goes, however you have neglected the "elephant in the region" and in the midst of US Arab relations which is Israel. The pragmatic and complicating reality that is at the heart of the Gordian Knot in the Middle East for the US is that we are tied irrevocably in the minds and hearts Arabs to Israel and its policies.
4
Bush and his advisers wanted to create "an oil-producing liberal democracy" alternative to Saudi Arabia? We were told that Saddam Hussein had WMD and that he supported terrorists. Douthat's alternative explanation is too far fetched: not even the neocons could be so oblivious as to believe they can create a "liberal democracy" in Iraq. No, I suspect the truth is that Bush and his advisers had lots of evidence that Saudis funded the 9/11 terrorists and other terrorist groups through a cooperative Sunni dictator in Iraq, and as between invading Saudi Arabia or invading Iraq, they chose to invade Iraq as the lesser of two evils. By empowering the Shiites in Iraq, Bush and his advisers escalated the sectarian war already underway in the region, a war in which the violence in places like Iraq and Syria are proxies for the sectarian war raging between Sunni Saudi Arabia and Shiite Iran. The mystery is why America has cast its lot with the Sunnis: Sunnis from Saudi Arabia attacked America on 9/11, Sunnis killed and maimed thousands of American soldiers in Iraq, and Sunnis have been perpetrating the most despicable acts of terrorism (ISIS and Al Qaeda are Sunni organizations). I suspect the answer is either (a) the lingering effects of the humiliation suffered by America 35 years ago or (b) the belief that Sunnis will win the sectarian war given that Sunnis have an overwhelming numerical advantage (Sunnis comprise constitute more than 85% of Muslims) and Sunnis have a nuclear weapon.
3
At times like this, I think of the refrain my high school history teacher hammered into whenever we discussed US foreign policy: he may be a son of a b****, but he's our son of a b****.
But more seriously, let's remember that Saudi Arabia has existed as a nation for less than a century. At that point in American history, we were still eradicating Native Americans and seizing their lands, and publicly lynching people as the featured activity at town picnics. Saudi Arabia is slowly creeping into modernity. It will get there some day.
But more seriously, let's remember that Saudi Arabia has existed as a nation for less than a century. At that point in American history, we were still eradicating Native Americans and seizing their lands, and publicly lynching people as the featured activity at town picnics. Saudi Arabia is slowly creeping into modernity. It will get there some day.
6
Ross, I generally disagree with most everything you say, but in this case, you were spot on!
6
Touche!. Finally a columnist for the New York Times tells the truth about the West's subjugation by the Kingdom of Saud. What that "royal family" has done to its own citizens and will continue to do with the blessing of western governments is on par with Mr. Assad in Syria, and the emergence of ISIS. The only difference of course being the fact of all that oil.
5
It would appear the the republican party, and the Bush family in particular, have had a too-long cozy relationship with the House of Saud. Remember how the Saudi family was able, with the help of W, to get all their family out of the U.S. AFTER the travel ban was immediately implemented in the U.S. against Saudis? And how much of the Bush family wealth is connected to the Saudi oil?
Mr. Douthat conveniently forgets any republican connections to problems but likes to bring up his dirty laundry as if it is the current administrations doing. Is he trying to outfox the viewers AGAIN? That seems to be the republican angle these days.
Mr. Douthat conveniently forgets any republican connections to problems but likes to bring up his dirty laundry as if it is the current administrations doing. Is he trying to outfox the viewers AGAIN? That seems to be the republican angle these days.
14
Good grief Ross! You've finally written a column with which this "liberal" agrees 100%. Maybe our relationship can be saved after all?
11
Ross,
Terrific article, you told it as it is. I made have missed it, but I don't think you mentioned that Abdullah financed anti west organizations, & terrorists.In the 50s American Soldiers of the Jewish faith were forbidden to be stationed on our base in Saudi Arabia.I though we had reached a point where oil had lost it's importance as our main source of energy, I guess not.
Terrific article, you told it as it is. I made have missed it, but I don't think you mentioned that Abdullah financed anti west organizations, & terrorists.In the 50s American Soldiers of the Jewish faith were forbidden to be stationed on our base in Saudi Arabia.I though we had reached a point where oil had lost it's importance as our main source of energy, I guess not.
6
For the first time ever, I agree with you 100%. This family is responsible for All Qaeda, ISIS and fanatical extremism. The House of Saud is a cancer upon humanity.
5
"Much of America’s post-Cold War policy-making in the Middle East can be understood as a search for a way to slip those cuffs"
I seriously doubt that this the case. Perhaps the best picture depicting the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia is the photo of George W. Bush and King Abdallah holding hands at the Crawford ranch. Awkward in public, warm and cozy in private.
I seriously doubt that this the case. Perhaps the best picture depicting the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia is the photo of George W. Bush and King Abdallah holding hands at the Crawford ranch. Awkward in public, warm and cozy in private.
4
Best analysis to date of Saudi/U.S. relationship. What does it say about this country, that it is, on the one hand, shackled to Saudi Arabia, and, on the other, to Israel? No wonder its foreign "policies" are schizophrenic, contradictory, ambiguous or confused. Take your pick.
8
Ross, how could you write an entire column about the Saudis without mentioning the pivotal event in the tangled history of US-Saudi relations-- the terrorist attacks of 9/11/2001? The majority of the hijackers were Saudis and terrorist mastermind Osama Bin Laden was from the most powerful family in Saudi Arabia after the royal family. Yet, at the time, the silence from King Abdullah was deafening. Saudi Arabia expressed no remorse over the tragic events of 9/11, Thanks to dropping oil prices maybe we won't be prisoners of the Saudis any longer.
9
Splendid column.
Blowback: more Americans need to learn and understand the term.
Blowback: more Americans need to learn and understand the term.
3
At last! A Douhat column uncorrupted by right-wing paens. Bravo, Ross! We knew you had it in you somewhere.
3
The relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia has been an alliance of convenience - America needed oil and the Saudis rely on the US for security. It dates back to 1938, when oil was discovered and production began under the US-controlled Arabian American Oil Company.
Aramco played a big part in the development of modern Arabia, and although Saudi Arabia took full control of the company in the 1970s, Americans still do business with the Saudis. The US is their main arms supplier and has a military presence in the country, protecting it from external threat in the event of an attack.
Since 2011 Riyadh and Washington need each other even more, despite tensions and divergent interests. The Arab uprisings have taken a toll on security and stability in the region. Nevertheless ordinary Americans have a different view on Saudi Arabia, not least because of the 9/11 attacks and its human rights abuses.
Aramco played a big part in the development of modern Arabia, and although Saudi Arabia took full control of the company in the 1970s, Americans still do business with the Saudis. The US is their main arms supplier and has a military presence in the country, protecting it from external threat in the event of an attack.
Since 2011 Riyadh and Washington need each other even more, despite tensions and divergent interests. The Arab uprisings have taken a toll on security and stability in the region. Nevertheless ordinary Americans have a different view on Saudi Arabia, not least because of the 9/11 attacks and its human rights abuses.
5
Truth-telling. We never get it from our leaders.
3
Yes. It seems you're right. The British and the French created this problem called the middle east conflict/conflicts after the first world war when they broke up The Ottoman Empire. After realizing, they couldn't manage it, they ran out with their tails between their legs, and the US was all too happy to fill the vacuum as we did in Vietnam. When will our country learn that we cannot fix the world, we can barely fix ourselves. The middle east is involved in an epic, bloody conflict that can only be resolved, for better or worse, by its own people. The best thing America can do is stat out of it, for us and for them.
4
It is rare that I agree with Mr. Douthat on most of his points. For this article, I think that Mr. Douthat is spot on.
3
Saudi Arabia - The Paradox Of Trusted Order Vs. A Regime That Requires Saudi Terrorism Exportation
First of all, putting aside energy independence, the Saudi's have steered a conservative course that their neighbors failed to do. While the policies of their neighbors have been thrown into chaos; either due to factionalism, naive attempts at democracy and/or not managing intra-country terrorism.
But their stability is based on extremest Wahhabism, and being the protectors of Islamic holy sites. In turn Wahhabism, provides its mosques with religious panacea to deflect extreme income inequality. Although Saudi Arabia has had some acts of terrorism within their kingdom; the truth of the matter is that Wahhabism is a security guarantee, due to economic disenfranchisement, which promotes terrorist exportation. A way to rid the country of radicalism within its borders, by shipping out radicalism outside its borders.
If you don't like Saudi Arabia, and there are plenty of reasons why, any alternative to status quo, is too dire to contemplate. Prevention of a failed-state - in the midst of failed-states - trumps Wahhabism terror exportation. There are no right answers. It's simply realpolitik.
This unsavory but successful stability plan, depends on exporting radical extremists, and the US killing them outside of the Saudi border. The monarchy doesn't care about anything but keeping the royal family and privileged families wealthy. The rest of the lives? Fungible.
First of all, putting aside energy independence, the Saudi's have steered a conservative course that their neighbors failed to do. While the policies of their neighbors have been thrown into chaos; either due to factionalism, naive attempts at democracy and/or not managing intra-country terrorism.
But their stability is based on extremest Wahhabism, and being the protectors of Islamic holy sites. In turn Wahhabism, provides its mosques with religious panacea to deflect extreme income inequality. Although Saudi Arabia has had some acts of terrorism within their kingdom; the truth of the matter is that Wahhabism is a security guarantee, due to economic disenfranchisement, which promotes terrorist exportation. A way to rid the country of radicalism within its borders, by shipping out radicalism outside its borders.
If you don't like Saudi Arabia, and there are plenty of reasons why, any alternative to status quo, is too dire to contemplate. Prevention of a failed-state - in the midst of failed-states - trumps Wahhabism terror exportation. There are no right answers. It's simply realpolitik.
This unsavory but successful stability plan, depends on exporting radical extremists, and the US killing them outside of the Saudi border. The monarchy doesn't care about anything but keeping the royal family and privileged families wealthy. The rest of the lives? Fungible.
3
Dear Mr. Douthat,
I am shocked and stunned and pleased by your column!
Shocked and stunned because both Bush the Elder and Bush the Younger cozened up to King Abdullah like he was their rich, old uncle (Kind of was, wasn't he?) and, correct me if I'm wrong, the Bushes are "your type of folk".
That's part of "shocked and stunned', not to be confused with "shock and awe" which was used on a different ally turned "bad guy" over in the ever turbulent Mid East.
It seems the Saudi kingdom might finally come to light as what it truly is; a repressive, backward, religious "saturated" autocracy with one big saving grace, oil and lots of it.
Hopefully the world's largest Islamic "gas station" may find itself in a bit of a pickle as it's revenues plunge and it's immediate neighbor, Yemen, becomes even more loony as whatever government it did possess just "got out of Dodge".
It's not a happy time for OPEC. The problem used to be to be that when OPEC was unhappy, the rest of the world paid for it. With oil plentiful, the situation, at least for now, appears quite different.
Maybe the new guy running Saudi Arabia should squarely face reality and start opening diplomatic relations with Israel paving the way for a new dawn of peace in the Mid East.
While I'm waiting for that, I think I'll go outside and wait for the "Easter Bunny" while I'm at it.
Otherwise, thanks for a good column!
I am shocked and stunned and pleased by your column!
Shocked and stunned because both Bush the Elder and Bush the Younger cozened up to King Abdullah like he was their rich, old uncle (Kind of was, wasn't he?) and, correct me if I'm wrong, the Bushes are "your type of folk".
That's part of "shocked and stunned', not to be confused with "shock and awe" which was used on a different ally turned "bad guy" over in the ever turbulent Mid East.
It seems the Saudi kingdom might finally come to light as what it truly is; a repressive, backward, religious "saturated" autocracy with one big saving grace, oil and lots of it.
Hopefully the world's largest Islamic "gas station" may find itself in a bit of a pickle as it's revenues plunge and it's immediate neighbor, Yemen, becomes even more loony as whatever government it did possess just "got out of Dodge".
It's not a happy time for OPEC. The problem used to be to be that when OPEC was unhappy, the rest of the world paid for it. With oil plentiful, the situation, at least for now, appears quite different.
Maybe the new guy running Saudi Arabia should squarely face reality and start opening diplomatic relations with Israel paving the way for a new dawn of peace in the Mid East.
While I'm waiting for that, I think I'll go outside and wait for the "Easter Bunny" while I'm at it.
Otherwise, thanks for a good column!
5
For once I mostly agree with Mr. Douthat.
His second paragraph is an almost perfect description of the King; all that is missing is the title of "Blackmailer-in-Chief"
Mr. Douthat would not agree, however, that the only difference between the King and the likes of the Koch brothers, the Waltons, and the Wall Street Banksters is that the latter don't yet have TOTAL control of the country.
His second paragraph is an almost perfect description of the King; all that is missing is the title of "Blackmailer-in-Chief"
Mr. Douthat would not agree, however, that the only difference between the King and the likes of the Koch brothers, the Waltons, and the Wall Street Banksters is that the latter don't yet have TOTAL control of the country.
2
I wish the links between Saudi Arabia and 'extremists' that we seem to hear about 'in passing' were more clearly explained. If they are real, what role the US play in being aligned with the House of Saud, beyond the obvious oil issue?
IT all sounds very Mafia-esque, especially the coming of so many world leaders to the funerals of someone the public at large almost never hears about. Looks like they're all going to 'pay their respects' to a Mafia Don nobody has every heard about, but that the leaders of the world know used to hold the key to whatever stability's left in that region of the world. It also indicates how us the public at large know very little about how this all works, and I'm no conspiracist here....
IT all sounds very Mafia-esque, especially the coming of so many world leaders to the funerals of someone the public at large almost never hears about. Looks like they're all going to 'pay their respects' to a Mafia Don nobody has every heard about, but that the leaders of the world know used to hold the key to whatever stability's left in that region of the world. It also indicates how us the public at large know very little about how this all works, and I'm no conspiracist here....
1
Saudi Arabia is like the geek with money who gets the girl. If he was poor (No oil) nobody would care. I choose not to care about the medieval life style and the fact that they still walk around with picnic blankets on their heads.
Thank you for writing the truth about a ruler who only pretended to reform just enough to satisfy he Bushes and Obamas. He loved our support and money; he just did not love his people enough to give them a life.
2
Two words: Renewable energy.
13
After so many spectacular and long term failures on the part of both Democrats and Republicans, somebody might have come to the conclusion that the US has a basic failure in understanding the domestic and foreign workings of these countries.
The failure is both deep and broad. These countries are not western, do not aspire to be western and in fact have quite a bit of antipathy to the west. That would be true even if the US did have some inkling as to their psychology and cultures.
They are "friendly" only in the sense that they want things from the west and cannot get them by force.
Some in the west are "pro" Arab, some "anti" but neither have much, if any, understanding of what makes these countries tick.
Add in the ignorance of so many in the west who confuse democracy with elections. As if elections are sufficient ! Hint - they are not sufficient (necessary but not sufficient). Hence both Republican and Democrat can claim progress when a Mideast country institutes elections without years of foundation building. Then .. SURPRISE and SHOCK ... It didn't work. Then blame the Israelis, blame ISIS, blame the Republicans, blame the Democrats, blame the Chinese or Russians.
And continue to try things that will not work as though a repeated failure will magically change to success.
The failure is both deep and broad. These countries are not western, do not aspire to be western and in fact have quite a bit of antipathy to the west. That would be true even if the US did have some inkling as to their psychology and cultures.
They are "friendly" only in the sense that they want things from the west and cannot get them by force.
Some in the west are "pro" Arab, some "anti" but neither have much, if any, understanding of what makes these countries tick.
Add in the ignorance of so many in the west who confuse democracy with elections. As if elections are sufficient ! Hint - they are not sufficient (necessary but not sufficient). Hence both Republican and Democrat can claim progress when a Mideast country institutes elections without years of foundation building. Then .. SURPRISE and SHOCK ... It didn't work. Then blame the Israelis, blame ISIS, blame the Republicans, blame the Democrats, blame the Chinese or Russians.
And continue to try things that will not work as though a repeated failure will magically change to success.
2
Is it really that hard to understand? The common denominator is the Sunni Shia intolerance which defies solution, certainly from the West. Thank goodness we are nearing a time when we won't need their oil, and they can sort out their religious animosities themselves.
This may well be a case of the devil we know (knew) was better than the devil we don't.
2
Here in Canada the Saudi nightmare has just begun for our Conservative governments in Alberta and Ottawa. The graft corruption and malfeasance that was part and parcel of Conservative governance beginning in 1980 with the destruction of Canada's National Energy Program will not be able to stand the light of day. The Saudi insistence on keeping the spigots open has seen the flow of money to the coffers of Conservative governments and their enablers dry up. The population's of Alberta and Canada are beginning to realize that the fiscal prudence and the long term contingency options were simply rhetorical slight of hand and the storehouses that were supposed to be full have been pillaged by the very same entities that were responsible for their maintenance.
While the Conservative government of Alberta has a few years to wait before the next election our Canadian Conservative government was supposed to be in the midst of preparing for a spring election it must deal with a Canadian dollar in free fall and a bare cupboard that it has invariably used to bribe the electorate in its pre-election budget. Instead it must confront the Canadian population with dramatic tax increases which usually augurs poorly for governments craving re-election.
While Putin can blame the West for Russia's depressed oil economy the Saudis can hardly be blamed for our 80 cents free falling dollar. Slavish devotion to middle east despots does entail risk.
While the Conservative government of Alberta has a few years to wait before the next election our Canadian Conservative government was supposed to be in the midst of preparing for a spring election it must deal with a Canadian dollar in free fall and a bare cupboard that it has invariably used to bribe the electorate in its pre-election budget. Instead it must confront the Canadian population with dramatic tax increases which usually augurs poorly for governments craving re-election.
While Putin can blame the West for Russia's depressed oil economy the Saudis can hardly be blamed for our 80 cents free falling dollar. Slavish devotion to middle east despots does entail risk.
1
yes, we produce a small share of our energy from wind and solar, but as much as petroleum haters would like to resist reality, we are free of energy dependence on the Saudis (and the fawning hypocrisy that dependence engenders) mostly to the extent that domestic oil producers can tap traditional reservoirs and frackers are able to produce oil from shale ... now that much lower oil prices dictated by the House of Saud are beginning to bankrupt the weaker frackers, fawning to their latest king - and his regime's odious policies - will only intensify
1
It's still about petroleum fuel profits, and Congresses' unwillingness to pursue green alternatives, in everyone's best interest. We ally ourselves with all the "right" criminals, just like Pakistan. This may be why we cannot identify imminent terrorism, or its perpetrators. I think green energy would go a long way towards ending our fruitless involvement in the middle east.
50
Our relationship with the middle east is spelled OIL. Recognizing our addiction and doing something else is what we must for our National Security. Oil is a threat to our National Security. We must stop using it, turn with all our scientific capacity to achieving oil independence as soon as possible. All of the nay sayers must be ignored and obstacles that delay the transition to independence from oil, not just foreign oil, but oil should be addressed as if our future depends upon it. It does.
This will require a major infrastructure reform. We cannot dicker away a moment with issues like Keystone, but concentrate on rebuilding the grid, building turbines and solar panels and installing them where most productive. We must improve the transmission or transport of generated power to population centers. There is not a moment to lose.
The economy that hobbles our country: all Hydrocarbons and all financial interests will resist. They must be persuaded and then compelled to realign their capital to comply with the National Security necessities that we face.
The Saudis are inherently a corrupt monarchy founded by Britain to secure oil interests and supported by the United States. We cannot reform the monarchy but we can escape its degenerate medieval collapse.
This will require a major infrastructure reform. We cannot dicker away a moment with issues like Keystone, but concentrate on rebuilding the grid, building turbines and solar panels and installing them where most productive. We must improve the transmission or transport of generated power to population centers. There is not a moment to lose.
The economy that hobbles our country: all Hydrocarbons and all financial interests will resist. They must be persuaded and then compelled to realign their capital to comply with the National Security necessities that we face.
The Saudis are inherently a corrupt monarchy founded by Britain to secure oil interests and supported by the United States. We cannot reform the monarchy but we can escape its degenerate medieval collapse.
5
Ross, bear in mind the example of our own progression from nonsense to commonsense. It's just taking longer among the Saudis. It will happen.
1
I agree entirely with Douthat's analysis. All the more reason to reach a satisfactory nuclear deal with Iran. Saudi Arabia can break easily and someday will. Not only is the Saudi kingdom the "ally" whose own people fun the madrases who fill ISIS and Al Qaeda, but the monarchy that holds it together through tyranny is fundamentally fragile. The Neo-Con Utopians who tried to create a new democratic partner in Iraq through war were deluded, but they were correct that the US must reduce its concentrated reliance on Saudi Arabia. Egypt long ago squandered its ability to lead the middle east, so Iran is the Middle Eastern power whose influence will grow when crisis inevitably enfolds Saudi Arabia. We can only hope that when that happens Iran will still be a year away from a nuclear weapon and that the its economy will be integrated enough with the US and Europe that we can influence their response to an Arabian peninsula destabilized after the fall of the House of Saud.
2
You left out President Carter, who pointed the way to independence from the oil cartel led by Saudi Arabia almost 40 years ago. Had we followed his advice and begun to turn off the oil spigot back then, Saudi Arabia might well be a different country now. But Republicans rolled their eyes at President Carter and resisted conservation and investment in alternative forms of energy. President Reagan rejected doing anything about our oil habit, thereby cementing our unhappy relationship with Saudi Arabia for years to come. In case anyone did not get his message that alternative forms of energy were not worthy of a great nation, Reagan removed the solar panels that Carter had installed on the White House roof. I'm sure that the Saudis, among others, got that message loud and clear -- no need to change their ways. They surely had us over a barrel.
20
It may be hyperbole to say our government and nation is drifting toward a Saudi model, but if The Oligarchy and the GOP (Global Oil Party) continues to get its way there are similarities.
The acquiescence of the media and electorate is only facilitating this process.
The acquiescence of the media and electorate is only facilitating this process.
3
Amazing that the word "oil" appears only once in this column, and there is no discussion about how to solve our problematic relationship with the Saudis. The solution to this is easy: develop energy sources that do not rely on fossil fuels. If tomorrow the entire world had sources of energy that don't rely on oil or natural gas, the Saudi's stranglehold over world politics would evaporate.
9
What frustrates me is we've been talking about those solutions for nearly 45 years and we're still tied to this bunch. I can send an e-mail to Argentina in six seconds, but I still need gasoline for my car. Bah.
2
Simply a distinct civilization, one we don't like to come to grips with.
The long arch of history is on the side of modernity and liberal democracy. I would leave it at that. We are fortunate in this country to be on the right side of history. We should leave it at that---let history takes its course. Our efforts at helping other nations untangle themselves from religious and tribal traditions have largely failed. We should get out of that business. The best we can do is try to reduce as much pain and humiliation these societies bring to their own people and to protect our own liberal democracy. While this strategy does not means our leaders should be rude to these cultures, I do wish for some honesty on our part: lets not call the king a "visionary."
3
A country that does not respect its women is a country that I cannot respect. And the tyrant/king represents all that; he wields the power.
11
The idea of Democracy was to drive a wedge between political power and wealth. Now it seems Democracy is everywhere in retreat, except maybe in South America. All states are converging on plutocracy. The main difference between Saudistan and US is that our system is better camouflaged. We are all in gangster territories now.
11
In spite of the fossil fuel industry's iron-fisted rule over our corporatocracy, America should resolve to pour trillions into sustainable energy in much the same way we have poured trillions into the miasma known as the Middle East. Only then will we be able to chart our own course free of the dystopic societies that perpetually seek to drag us back to the Dark Ages.
12
TRILLIONS, derived from the taxes on wealthiest people, and corporations, in our country.
2
And one must especially thank the Republicans, and the Bush Family in particular, for flying the Bin Laden family out of the US and back to Saudi Arabia after Saudi Arabians attacked us on 9/11.
One must also praise Republicans and others who deny global warming, and keep us from advancing further in giving up fossil fuel, a liquid that funds Saudi Arabia and keeps them rich, able to fund worldwide terror, fundamentalism abroad, and repression at home.
The keys to the handcuffs are held by the Koch Brothers, the oil industry and those who want to keep the world driving on oil until Earth melts into nothing.
One must also praise Republicans and others who deny global warming, and keep us from advancing further in giving up fossil fuel, a liquid that funds Saudi Arabia and keeps them rich, able to fund worldwide terror, fundamentalism abroad, and repression at home.
The keys to the handcuffs are held by the Koch Brothers, the oil industry and those who want to keep the world driving on oil until Earth melts into nothing.
41
Let's not forget that both Bush and Cheney had intense oil interests.
4
Accepting the analysis offered here, isn't the best way out of this moral morass
the path of energy independence? And by that I don't mean fracking above every last source of fresh ground-water in the land. I mean really pushing the alternatives, solar, geothermal, hydro, and yes even nuclear (with a strong emphasis on developing safe procedures and designs). Is it fair to call the Saudis gangsters and not condemn the oil moguls of the West whose insatiable greed (and in the case of the Kochs, John Birchite politics) keeps us tied to them?
the path of energy independence? And by that I don't mean fracking above every last source of fresh ground-water in the land. I mean really pushing the alternatives, solar, geothermal, hydro, and yes even nuclear (with a strong emphasis on developing safe procedures and designs). Is it fair to call the Saudis gangsters and not condemn the oil moguls of the West whose insatiable greed (and in the case of the Kochs, John Birchite politics) keeps us tied to them?
19
It isn't the USA that is necessarily directly dependent on Saudi oil. I believe any and every nation that we call an ally, especially countries that have similar liberties, is absolutely dependent on Saudi influence. Funny how I keep reading on these comment boards how the world, humanity, is spiritually and morally inter connected but then we want to put our head in the sand when the brutal side of our humanness and inter dependency shows through. Save the hugs and kisses for commentary. Reality on the street is, well, just that. Reality. And the street we try to live live on is of continuous prosperity, comfort and creature comfort. It begs a high price.
3
I remember the Arab Oil Embargo in 1973 orchestrated by the Saudis as revenge for the West supplying ammo to Israel defending itself from its invading Abab neighbors. This economic act of war should not be forgotten nor forgiven.
Today I'm very glad that the U.S.A. can become entirely independent of Saudi Arabia if we choose to do so.
We are on top of an ocean of natural gas which can run all of our cars, trucks and buses for 200 years.
Where I live : 1. heat our water 2. heat our houses 3. run our buses 4. run our power plant (Moss Landing) on natural gas.
I was disgusted to see an American president bow and kowtow to this King of a medieval system. I hope our next president will stand up straight when meeting heads of state and despots.
Today I'm very glad that the U.S.A. can become entirely independent of Saudi Arabia if we choose to do so.
We are on top of an ocean of natural gas which can run all of our cars, trucks and buses for 200 years.
Where I live : 1. heat our water 2. heat our houses 3. run our buses 4. run our power plant (Moss Landing) on natural gas.
I was disgusted to see an American president bow and kowtow to this King of a medieval system. I hope our next president will stand up straight when meeting heads of state and despots.
11
Extremely well stated column by Mr. Douthat. If we were to start thinking about Saudi Arabia in the way that this column presents, it would lead to some useful conclusions. We should be treating Saudi Arabia as we do Russia - openly deploring its approach to human and political rights, but acknowledging that there are times and places where our interests must converge. We can place an enormous amount of pressure on the Saudis to modernize their society and break the Wahabbi control by refusing to sell them arms. The anachronistic kingdom of Saud could not exist without U.S. arms and military support. Given the strength of the U.S. in producing energy, they no longer have the leverage of an oil embargo. Ultimatums are not normally a good approach to diplomacy, but this is one case where ultimatums directed toward a country's internal policies are called for, and would be effective.
11
But with that plan you would force two American industries against each other: the oil and gas industry, which would love a Saudi embargo for short-term profit, and the firearms industry, which would not be so happy if a large overseas customer could no longer buy its goods.
1
The power of Saudi Arabia lays in our ego to fill our streets with SUVs. We have to concede that they are much smarter than us, and that is why our President pays "homage" to the late king, according to what I read recently in NYT.
6
Only a few Americans pay attention to what is happening in Saudi Arabia when it comes to oil or oppression. Yes, I agree SUVs are counterproductive to most of our interests, unless you have a very large family or need to haul large trailers. Here is Los Angeles, I see SUVs with one person in them everywhere. It is sad. Apparently these drivers don't know or care about their profligate ways.
9
I wonder how our parents did without SUVs, cell phones and HD television sets. A terrible situation it seems.
1
Prisoners of fossils might be a better title for this piece. The Saudi regime is a fossil remnant of a dynamic and flourishing past gone sclerotic, corrupt and decayed. That it sits on an ocean of fossil remnants of dynamic and flourishing long-passed geological era is no coincidence. Regimes that prop themselves up via extraction of fossil fuels clearly tend to imprison and stagnate themselves as they suck the life out of other regimes that find themselves dependent on those current and long-passed fossils.
Evolution takes time. Living fossils will eventually die out completely. The longer we continue our addiction to their underground fossils, the more we will suffer from their sclerosis and decay.
This is the first of Mr Douthat's columns with which I substantially agree.
Evolution takes time. Living fossils will eventually die out completely. The longer we continue our addiction to their underground fossils, the more we will suffer from their sclerosis and decay.
This is the first of Mr Douthat's columns with which I substantially agree.
23
Fossils or dinosaurs living off the decaying remains of more ancient ones indeed.
1
And here is 2nd Graf of Friedman's last week "Say it like it is"
When you don’t call things by their real name, you always get in trouble. And this administration, so fearful of being accused of Islamophobia, is refusing to make any link to radical Islam from the recent explosions of violence against civilians (most of them Muslims) by Boko Haram in Nigeria, by the Taliban in Pakistan, by Al Qaeda in Paris and by jihadists in Yemen and Iraq. We’ve entered the theater of the absurd.
Spot on.
When you don’t call things by their real name, you always get in trouble. And this administration, so fearful of being accused of Islamophobia, is refusing to make any link to radical Islam from the recent explosions of violence against civilians (most of them Muslims) by Boko Haram in Nigeria, by the Taliban in Pakistan, by Al Qaeda in Paris and by jihadists in Yemen and Iraq. We’ve entered the theater of the absurd.
Spot on.
4
"And we in the United States are prisoners as well: handcuffed to Saudi Arabia, bound to its corruptions and repression, with no immediate possibility of escape."
Exactly. These people are not our friends. Their enemies are not our friends. Their friends are not our friends. We don't have any friends in this explosive, backward region.
And yet we tax and punish and obstruct solar power, kill pipelines instead of making them more eco-friendly, drag our feet and cheat on common sense miles per gallon changes, scoff at alternative fuels, and just generally act as if our future will be the same as the past.
We need a divorce from the Middle East, all of it. That starts with a sane and effective energy policy that ends our dependence on Middle Eastern Oil, all of it, once and for all. No matter the cost, no matter the history, we need to be free of these people. And their people, especially women, need to be free of our power-broking hypocrisy. A win-win for all.
Exactly. These people are not our friends. Their enemies are not our friends. Their friends are not our friends. We don't have any friends in this explosive, backward region.
And yet we tax and punish and obstruct solar power, kill pipelines instead of making them more eco-friendly, drag our feet and cheat on common sense miles per gallon changes, scoff at alternative fuels, and just generally act as if our future will be the same as the past.
We need a divorce from the Middle East, all of it. That starts with a sane and effective energy policy that ends our dependence on Middle Eastern Oil, all of it, once and for all. No matter the cost, no matter the history, we need to be free of these people. And their people, especially women, need to be free of our power-broking hypocrisy. A win-win for all.
141
What you write Spotter is so true!! And we could stop our diplomats making statements like "a man of wisdom and vision". This country has little or no wisdom!!! but dances with and on the edges of what we would define in other countries as cruel and extreme. In fact we had intervened in many a country that has its views and values. But sadly we dance with the devil because of our dependence and send diplomats to make statements of hypocrisy. It is an abusive relationship and in all good faith we need a divorce!
The Arab spring did not turn out well in Libya and Syria. Iran has since gained even more influence in the Arab world, including Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and Yemen. We need not only a stable Middle East, but also a counterweight to Iran to maintain a balance between the Sunni and Shia axes of power. If that means having to live with moderate dictators in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, so be it. In that sense, the death of King Abdullah might have put the final nail in the coffin for George W. Bush’s freedom and democracy agenda in the Middle East.
It’s ironic but the more things change the more they seem to stay the same in that part of the world. Tragically, we paid a heavy price in the last decade only to see the wheel come almost full circle – only a collapse of democracy in Iraq would actually put us back to a pre-2003 status. Even more ironically, it was Saddam Hussein who prevented Iran from expanding its hegemony in the Middle East after its 1979 Islamic revolution. Now, Iraq is an Iranian satellite state and Saudi Arabia fears of its growing clout in the Arab world.
What Mr. Douthat calls “our Saudi nightmare” can be transformed into a less threatening scenario, if we acknowledge the new geopolitics of the Middle East. This means we need to coexist with Iran and Saudi Arabia like we did in the post-WWII era until the Shah got toppled. Again, the more things change in the Middle East, the more they revert to the same old same old. We just need to accept that.
It’s ironic but the more things change the more they seem to stay the same in that part of the world. Tragically, we paid a heavy price in the last decade only to see the wheel come almost full circle – only a collapse of democracy in Iraq would actually put us back to a pre-2003 status. Even more ironically, it was Saddam Hussein who prevented Iran from expanding its hegemony in the Middle East after its 1979 Islamic revolution. Now, Iraq is an Iranian satellite state and Saudi Arabia fears of its growing clout in the Arab world.
What Mr. Douthat calls “our Saudi nightmare” can be transformed into a less threatening scenario, if we acknowledge the new geopolitics of the Middle East. This means we need to coexist with Iran and Saudi Arabia like we did in the post-WWII era until the Shah got toppled. Again, the more things change in the Middle East, the more they revert to the same old same old. We just need to accept that.
41
I fail to see how the control over oil resources, as wielded by the (enormous) Saudi royal family, is any more "gangsterish" that the control wielded by our own oil dynasties and financial tycoons over our own "precious national resources" and some Saudi resources (Aramco). The Saudis have worked hard to use oil revenues to provide housing, education and other resources to the Saudi people, and the country attracts many guest workers.
As for being one of the most wicked non-pariah states, that's an odd qualification. What about Israel's obvious preference for ISIS over Shiite groups? Or do you consider Israel one of those pariah states? Every country, including the US, has "bad" groups that they support, usually covertly.
As for being one of the most wicked non-pariah states, that's an odd qualification. What about Israel's obvious preference for ISIS over Shiite groups? Or do you consider Israel one of those pariah states? Every country, including the US, has "bad" groups that they support, usually covertly.
18
"obvious preference" Obvious to whom? Not newspaper readers.
2
http://adam-keller2.blogspot.co.il/2015/01/about-buried-phosphorus-and-t...
Read down to:
"Coincidentally or not, just this week was published an interesting strategic assessment by Israel Ziv - formerly an IDF general and now heading a company which provides "security advice and military training for security forces in Latin America and Africa". Ziv stated unequivocally that "For Israel, ISIS is the lesser evil. The existence of the ISIS State breaks up the dangerous Shiite territorial continuity from Tehran to Beirut which Iran had spent great efforts to build up. It is preferable for us to have there a sword-wielding force moving about in converted vans, rather than a nuclear power stationing missiles at our borders. Moreover, the ideological priorities of ISIS are first of all to fight the Shiites and other minorities, rather than dealing with ‘The Zionists'. In this respect they have many years of 'work' laid out for them before having time and energy for us "(Yediot Aharonot, January 19, 2015)."
Read down to:
"Coincidentally or not, just this week was published an interesting strategic assessment by Israel Ziv - formerly an IDF general and now heading a company which provides "security advice and military training for security forces in Latin America and Africa". Ziv stated unequivocally that "For Israel, ISIS is the lesser evil. The existence of the ISIS State breaks up the dangerous Shiite territorial continuity from Tehran to Beirut which Iran had spent great efforts to build up. It is preferable for us to have there a sword-wielding force moving about in converted vans, rather than a nuclear power stationing missiles at our borders. Moreover, the ideological priorities of ISIS are first of all to fight the Shiites and other minorities, rather than dealing with ‘The Zionists'. In this respect they have many years of 'work' laid out for them before having time and energy for us "(Yediot Aharonot, January 19, 2015)."
3
Douthat, I think you're on to something (finally). I learned quite a bit from today's column, especially the history of the parallelism of Clinton, Bush and Obama diplomacies as they relate to Saudi Arabia.
8
US diplomacy has always been questionable. After WW II Arthur Dulles discredited the Hungarian government with claims of the partisans in WW II took Christian church money. The idea was if a moderate communist country fell it would be replaced by a hard line communist regime and the people would rise up and overthrow it, that didn't happen. ("Operation Splinter Factor by Stewart Stevens (non-fiction)).
The US support of Saddam Hussein, Papa Doc, Baby Doc, the Shah of Iran, Marcos of the Philippines, etc. is just part of a long list of bad choices of the US foreign policy. The US foreign policy is more driven by value as strategic location (Panama, Nicaragua) , assets (in this case oil) or fighting a war with proxies,Viet Nam instead of China or Russia.
The US support of Saddam Hussein, Papa Doc, Baby Doc, the Shah of Iran, Marcos of the Philippines, etc. is just part of a long list of bad choices of the US foreign policy. The US foreign policy is more driven by value as strategic location (Panama, Nicaragua) , assets (in this case oil) or fighting a war with proxies,Viet Nam instead of China or Russia.
10
In the world of international diplomacy, nations are not supposed to openly show any support for opposition groups. Governments in power are recognized diplomatically. I am not saying the U.S. isn't often on the "wrong side" but the opposition groups are often not any better. We must deal with the world we have. How would we react if foreign countries started supporting, openly, groups which want to overthrow our government?
1
The Saudis played successive generations of US administrations like a fiddle. Time to end our dependence on oil and stop fighting their proxy Sunni-Shia wars for them.
17
An excellent column. This praise comes from someone who is appalled by many of Mr. Douthat's columns.
16
I don't agree with you often, Ross, but thank you for calling out our politicians and media on their fawning treatment of this despot. A staunch enemy of human rights, the coverage of his death has been utterly disgraceful.
38
With its unflinching frankness, this column is a breath of fresh, truthful air about a man, a country, and a supposed "special relationship" that collectively emit an unpleasant smell.'
What is now Saudi Arabia was more or less abandoned by the French and British as they dismantled the Ottoman Empire, falling into US hands even though our troops never fought in that theater because of the discovery of those huge oil reserves, without which no one in the west would have any interest in this anti-Enlightenment country, with its beheadings, stonings, and support of violent extremism throughout the region.
What a sham the news reports have been, with their unquestioned valuing of supposed Saudi friendship. Have we forgotten that 9/11 was a Saudi operation and that Osama Bin Laden was a member of their royal family?
What is now Saudi Arabia was more or less abandoned by the French and British as they dismantled the Ottoman Empire, falling into US hands even though our troops never fought in that theater because of the discovery of those huge oil reserves, without which no one in the west would have any interest in this anti-Enlightenment country, with its beheadings, stonings, and support of violent extremism throughout the region.
What a sham the news reports have been, with their unquestioned valuing of supposed Saudi friendship. Have we forgotten that 9/11 was a Saudi operation and that Osama Bin Laden was a member of their royal family?
37
So Bin Laden was a royal? Excuse me. The senior Bin Laden came from Hydramat in Yemen, relocating to Jiddah in the 1930's to find work. He began work as a simple construction worker; through his honesty and work ethic he was able to open his own small construction company which had a reputation for honesty and good work, and this grew into the Bin Laden group as the government was looking for Saudi companies to build infrastructure. Osama Bin Laden is NOT a royal, and in fact, was stripped of his Saudi citizenship for his 'deviancy' well before 9/11. As to 9/11 being a "Saudi operation" that's like saying that Columbine and Watertown were "American operations"!
Not technically a royal perhaps, but all sources about his family connections emphasize that the very wealthy Bin Ladens were intimately connected to the Saudi royal family.
Not much of a difference. You make him seem like a self-made Abraham Lincoln. Which he was not. And you also disingenuously minimize his Saudi connection.
Not much of a difference. You make him seem like a self-made Abraham Lincoln. Which he was not. And you also disingenuously minimize his Saudi connection.
I don't know how old Mr Douthat is, but I'll bet he never waited in a gas line like I did in 1974. Holding a gas can because I ran out of gas.
There's nothing new here so hopefully we won't have to listen to fossil fuel loving, Koch Brothers financed conservatives calling Obama a hypocrite because he went to Saudi Arabia but not to Paris.
You want to vote to save those 30,000 coal miner jobs in Kentucky? Pay the price!
There's nothing new here so hopefully we won't have to listen to fossil fuel loving, Koch Brothers financed conservatives calling Obama a hypocrite because he went to Saudi Arabia but not to Paris.
You want to vote to save those 30,000 coal miner jobs in Kentucky? Pay the price!
7
I agree with you Ross!
I'm a hopeless progressive liberal, but my views in this area are highly conservative.
I'm a hopeless progressive liberal, but my views in this area are highly conservative.
7
I guess you wont be seeking a visa to visit the country. Too bad the desert is very nice.
1
Ross, in the movie "10," the reverend tells Dudley Moore, quite matter-of-factly, "Whenever Mrs. Kissel breaks wind, we beat the dog."
One nation in the Middle East has been responsible for the bulk of religious terrorism over the past two decades: It pumps a lot of oil, takes its mythology very seriously, and our relationship to it apes the American government's relationship to rich people worldwide: Feel free to let 'er rip, there are plenty of dogs to beat.
When Bush tried to conjure an alliance between al-Qaeda and Saddam, I wondered why he didn't instead point out the nationality of the 911 hijackers and how curious it was that a country with such a small population could produce so many angry and righteous children.
Stupid of me in that Riyadh is a suburb of Houston, and the same sorts of yahoos who dominate our energy policy roam the streets of the Saudi capital, albeit with different headgear.
I was with you until you said, "Here Obama’s experiences are of a piece with Bush’s, albeit without the same cost in blood and treasure," which is like saying, "Here the Renaissance is of a piece with the Hundred Year's War, albeit without the same cost in blood and treasure."
Really, Ross? Obama has attempted to stop sending American children to beat the wrong dog. Bush couldn't wait to drain the economy and send our kids overseas. Can't tell them apart, eh?
And now a new Saudi king will be in charge of spreading Wahhabi nonsense at the point of a sword. Time marches on.
One nation in the Middle East has been responsible for the bulk of religious terrorism over the past two decades: It pumps a lot of oil, takes its mythology very seriously, and our relationship to it apes the American government's relationship to rich people worldwide: Feel free to let 'er rip, there are plenty of dogs to beat.
When Bush tried to conjure an alliance between al-Qaeda and Saddam, I wondered why he didn't instead point out the nationality of the 911 hijackers and how curious it was that a country with such a small population could produce so many angry and righteous children.
Stupid of me in that Riyadh is a suburb of Houston, and the same sorts of yahoos who dominate our energy policy roam the streets of the Saudi capital, albeit with different headgear.
I was with you until you said, "Here Obama’s experiences are of a piece with Bush’s, albeit without the same cost in blood and treasure," which is like saying, "Here the Renaissance is of a piece with the Hundred Year's War, albeit without the same cost in blood and treasure."
Really, Ross? Obama has attempted to stop sending American children to beat the wrong dog. Bush couldn't wait to drain the economy and send our kids overseas. Can't tell them apart, eh?
And now a new Saudi king will be in charge of spreading Wahhabi nonsense at the point of a sword. Time marches on.
93
It was the much-maligned Jimmy Carter that had it right, long ago: energy independence from oil makes Saudi Arabia irrelevant. Oil is the pair of handcuffs, and they are now finally slipping. Fracking, solar, wind, alternative fuels, efficiency, conservation, battery technology. There are still huge efficiencies to be gained via passive heating and cooling of homes and offices, which is 40% of American energy. Grid parity is close--one to two years away--for photovoltaic systems and soon it will be cheaper to have panels on rooftops than to build new power plants.
But Carter was ahead of his time; the technology was not yet there and was not strongly developed or supported--jolly Saint Reagan ripped Carter's solar panels off the White House roof, a fine metaphor if ever there was one.
Americans will let go of Saudi oil more quickly than the US Government will let go of its inept meddling in the region.
But Carter was ahead of his time; the technology was not yet there and was not strongly developed or supported--jolly Saint Reagan ripped Carter's solar panels off the White House roof, a fine metaphor if ever there was one.
Americans will let go of Saudi oil more quickly than the US Government will let go of its inept meddling in the region.
48
Poet,
I didn't know about Reagan ripping solar panel off the White House roof. Thank you for that information. It doesn't surprise me, however.
I didn't know about Reagan ripping solar panel off the White House roof. Thank you for that information. It doesn't surprise me, however.
1
Energy independence is here. Credit fracking, not renewables, that are far from economic and probably never will be (except hydro).
I can see why the U.S. relation to Saudi Arabia is a conundrum for you Ross. The conservatives have decided to fully embrace fossil fuels, and all roads lead to Riyadh. As long as you put all your money on fossil fuels you have no other choice but to pander to the Saudis. It's just too seductive, isn't it? Cheap oil, economic growth, quantitative easing.... To actually contemplate another way - ie., energy conservation, renewables and building a sustainable society - too hard for those little noggins to wrap their heads around.
18
The only difference between Saudi Arabia and Iran is one country is (still) run by our kind of bad guy, while the other has rid itself of the bad guy we foisted upon it who didn't last as long as the House of Saud.
Like Iran, Saudi Arabia will eventually be another chicken that comes home to roost. It's what always happens when a country doubles down on its commitment to a person or family who isn't its ally---just its enemy's enemy.
Like Iran, Saudi Arabia will eventually be another chicken that comes home to roost. It's what always happens when a country doubles down on its commitment to a person or family who isn't its ally---just its enemy's enemy.
3
Thank You Ross,
I was thinking today that I live in a democracy that has more oil resources than it can burn and the death of a middle east despot is more important to mine and my grandchildren's economic future than anything since Carter's defeat in 1980. Even Big Oil's destruction of Canada's National Energy Policy in 1980 did not carry the impact of who rules Saudi Arabia and the money that finances not only international Islamic Terrorism but also sponsored the economic terrorism that was so much a part of the 1970s.
If only Carter could have taken us inside his crystal ball 35 years ago maybe we could have avoided the insecurity we face every day of global economic meltdown, Russian military might coupled with its precarious economy and and terrorists steeped in Wahhabist sponsored education and training.
I was thinking today that I live in a democracy that has more oil resources than it can burn and the death of a middle east despot is more important to mine and my grandchildren's economic future than anything since Carter's defeat in 1980. Even Big Oil's destruction of Canada's National Energy Policy in 1980 did not carry the impact of who rules Saudi Arabia and the money that finances not only international Islamic Terrorism but also sponsored the economic terrorism that was so much a part of the 1970s.
If only Carter could have taken us inside his crystal ball 35 years ago maybe we could have avoided the insecurity we face every day of global economic meltdown, Russian military might coupled with its precarious economy and and terrorists steeped in Wahhabist sponsored education and training.
7
It is time for the US to make a clean break from the entire Middle East. Too many trillions of dollars wasted and too many thousand Americans dead.
13
Many mideastern radicals believe that everyone must convert to Islam. That makes them continuously dangerous. It would be nice to just walk away but would we really be safer?
2
As long as Saudi Arabia has the economic clout, then the US and West will come calling, including President Obama himself.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/24/us-saudi-succession-idUSKBN0KX...
The US and West look the other way at a "wicked" state, whose domestic policies are "cartoonishly repressive", founded on "gangsterish control etc.", a country which served as home and incubator to numerous international terrorists, some still plaguing the world and the list goes on.
Modernizer? Like going from Neolithic A to Neolithic B (with no disrespect meant to prehistory).
But money talks re the Saudis and relativism re Mr. Assad regarding US policy.
Now those are policies that US allies can depend on.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/24/us-saudi-succession-idUSKBN0KX...
The US and West look the other way at a "wicked" state, whose domestic policies are "cartoonishly repressive", founded on "gangsterish control etc.", a country which served as home and incubator to numerous international terrorists, some still plaguing the world and the list goes on.
Modernizer? Like going from Neolithic A to Neolithic B (with no disrespect meant to prehistory).
But money talks re the Saudis and relativism re Mr. Assad regarding US policy.
Now those are policies that US allies can depend on.
5
Sir Douhat...this was a very powerful column in support of solar power, wind power, hydropower, geothermal and biomass power, tidal power, hydrogen fuel cells and non-fossil fuels.
There's simply no reason to support medievalism, misogyny and oil-sponsored terrorism.
Isn't it high time for the West to drop its immoral and polluting addiction to the medieval Middle East ?
We could do it if we wanted to.
There's simply no reason to support medievalism, misogyny and oil-sponsored terrorism.
Isn't it high time for the West to drop its immoral and polluting addiction to the medieval Middle East ?
We could do it if we wanted to.
146
This president blew close to $100 billion on green energy and it was a total washout. Next time, you should raise the cash among your friends and just send it to the White House, as the rest od us are tapped out.
I'm always surprised to agree with Douthat on much, but I do about Abdullah being a prisoner of Wahabbi extremists in his own country. As the ones promoting the strict brand of Islam taught in madrassas and fueling jihad everywhere, if Abdullah couldn't dent them as King, with all his power, that's worth pondering. He can't have liked being under their thumb.
I wish DC and the Pentagon would tell us the truth about why we're all over the ME. The democracy and human rights veil was shattered forever with Iraq and the Torture Report so it won't be that shocking.
Sooner or later they'll have to quit lying so ridicuously to us. Even in SA a video of an execution leaked out. Information gets around instantly. Our leaders have to start leveling with us regarding real risks vs benefits, or ignore us altogether like leaders do in SA & many repressive states. I'm afraid of direction we're going, where our voices don't matter and lies pass as truth.
I wish DC and the Pentagon would tell us the truth about why we're all over the ME. The democracy and human rights veil was shattered forever with Iraq and the Torture Report so it won't be that shocking.
Sooner or later they'll have to quit lying so ridicuously to us. Even in SA a video of an execution leaked out. Information gets around instantly. Our leaders have to start leveling with us regarding real risks vs benefits, or ignore us altogether like leaders do in SA & many repressive states. I'm afraid of direction we're going, where our voices don't matter and lies pass as truth.
11
The officials, like Kerry, who praise the old king know, believe, have no doubt that he was--and the royal Saudis are--classic fascists, and so they are liars who know they lie and should be thought with exactly the same kind of respect we normally have for such people: little or none.
11
"Abdullah presided over one of the world’s most wicked nonpariah states,"
This is one of Mr. Douthat's finest columns.
And so, Saudi Arabia, one of the most authoritarian, repressive and feudalistic regimes in the world, uses its enormous wealth and resources to create and finance the likes of ISIS, which we end up having to fight and contain. Saudi Arabia also finances and organizes coups against democratically elected governments, against our professed policy of promoting democracy throughout the world.
The tragic irony, however, is that Saudi Arabia is protected and defended by one of the world's most vocal proponent of democratic values, the United States of American.
No wonder the Middle East is one of the most dangerous and most unstable parts of the world. No wonder the American people are confused about who is our friend and who is our foe. No wonder the peoples of the Middle East view US Middle East policy with suspicion.
Until our policy makers refrain from supporting these ruthless despots against their own populations, violence and terrorism will continue to pose serious threats to peace and security in the Middle East and throughout the world.
This is one of Mr. Douthat's finest columns.
And so, Saudi Arabia, one of the most authoritarian, repressive and feudalistic regimes in the world, uses its enormous wealth and resources to create and finance the likes of ISIS, which we end up having to fight and contain. Saudi Arabia also finances and organizes coups against democratically elected governments, against our professed policy of promoting democracy throughout the world.
The tragic irony, however, is that Saudi Arabia is protected and defended by one of the world's most vocal proponent of democratic values, the United States of American.
No wonder the Middle East is one of the most dangerous and most unstable parts of the world. No wonder the American people are confused about who is our friend and who is our foe. No wonder the peoples of the Middle East view US Middle East policy with suspicion.
Until our policy makers refrain from supporting these ruthless despots against their own populations, violence and terrorism will continue to pose serious threats to peace and security in the Middle East and throughout the world.
46
I found this piece very pertinent and spot on. I especially enjoyed the litany of adjectives used to describe a country that is essentially a medieval, theocratic monarchy with modern technology and weapons......wicked, repressive, malign, gangsterish, unholy, cruel, despotic, morally corrosive and corrupt. Quite impressive, but you forgot homophobic, misogynist, chauvinistic, hypocritical, arrogant, vulgar, primitive, ignorant and really, really anti-Semitic. Not to mention a whole lot of evidence that the Saudis were involved up to their necks in planning, financing and facilitating 9-11. It could be argued that we should have declared war on them rather than Iraq.
The Saudis are not our friends and they despise our Western, non Wahhabi values and pluralistic society. They import their version of radical Islam around the world and demand it be respected while forbidding any other faith from doing the same in their own country. I think they would rather we became more like them and not the other way around. Their relationship with us is that of a drug dealer and his customer. As long as we need a fix, they've got us by the you know whats.
The Saudis are not our friends and they despise our Western, non Wahhabi values and pluralistic society. They import their version of radical Islam around the world and demand it be respected while forbidding any other faith from doing the same in their own country. I think they would rather we became more like them and not the other way around. Their relationship with us is that of a drug dealer and his customer. As long as we need a fix, they've got us by the you know whats.
55
I believe you meant to say they export their version of radial Islam.
We continue to buy oil from countries like Saudi Arabia and support their barbaric policies. While Saudi Arabia and Iran are the current puppet masters of world terrorism, the US continues to pursue policies (economic and defense) that prolong our dependence on oil when we could pursue sustainable energy independence that does not prop up governments like Saudi Arabia, Libya, Iraq, Iran etc. George Bush Sr and Jr are directly responsible for the destabilization of the entire world through their misguided policies in Iraq and now the world is paying a price. The defense contractors are in heaven and the so are the energy companies.
22
Unfortunately, Iraq showed us the power of the devil that we don't know.
I suppose Saudi Arabia continues to be the devil that we know.
What's worse, taking actions based on your convictions and trying to make the world a better place (and failing), or sitting back and writing columns judging those actions?
I suppose Saudi Arabia continues to be the devil that we know.
What's worse, taking actions based on your convictions and trying to make the world a better place (and failing), or sitting back and writing columns judging those actions?
2
Wow! I too cannot believe I am concurring with what Mr. Douthat has stated in his column, but I am. The truth is, it is the adherence to Sharia Law (which is based on religion) that is at the heart of the problem between those countries outside the Middle East, and other Muslim countries.
Our forefathers sought to have a country in which you were free to worship as you please, but they also sought to have country in which religion was not intertwined with government (as occurs in Muslim countries). We are seeing the separation of Church and State slowly eroding away, and rights, especially women's rights are being trampled upon in this country. Science is now being eschewed in favor of religious beliefs, and text books in some states are being written to reflect religious beliefs as science. We are on a slippery slope. We need to maintain a clear separation of Church and State as our forefathers intended. The lessons are clear as to what happens when religion and government are one and the same.
Our forefathers sought to have a country in which you were free to worship as you please, but they also sought to have country in which religion was not intertwined with government (as occurs in Muslim countries). We are seeing the separation of Church and State slowly eroding away, and rights, especially women's rights are being trampled upon in this country. Science is now being eschewed in favor of religious beliefs, and text books in some states are being written to reflect religious beliefs as science. We are on a slippery slope. We need to maintain a clear separation of Church and State as our forefathers intended. The lessons are clear as to what happens when religion and government are one and the same.
10
Of course the best way to make the Saudis irrelevant is to make their oil worth less.
The Stone Age monarchs are able to wield so much power and pay off the mullahs and keep their hand chopping, stoning to the death, beheading in public regime, because they have the oil wealth.
And what's the best way to get there? Make our own oil. Explore. Frack.
And we have. Thanks to fracking, the Saudies are bit poorer today than last year, and our citizens have a bit more in their pockets to shop than last year.
And none of this would have happened if we had listened to the enviro mafia and the green liberals. They would have stopped us from producing our own oil, even as Pelosi goes around in her husbands fancy cars, being the limousine liberal she is, and even as Al gore is jetting around thanks to the millions he got from Al Jazeera.
The Stone Age monarchs are able to wield so much power and pay off the mullahs and keep their hand chopping, stoning to the death, beheading in public regime, because they have the oil wealth.
And what's the best way to get there? Make our own oil. Explore. Frack.
And we have. Thanks to fracking, the Saudies are bit poorer today than last year, and our citizens have a bit more in their pockets to shop than last year.
And none of this would have happened if we had listened to the enviro mafia and the green liberals. They would have stopped us from producing our own oil, even as Pelosi goes around in her husbands fancy cars, being the limousine liberal she is, and even as Al gore is jetting around thanks to the millions he got from Al Jazeera.
5
We like to carp about spreading our democratic ideals and values to the world, but in reality we support far too many despots and dictators. Saudi Arabia is a classic example. There is no free press, no free elections, a brutal justice system, and a lousy human rights record, especially regarding women. And they export terrorism. Are we that desperate that our Secretary of State has to gush over a dead dictator? Appalling.
4
Saudi Arabia has been strategically important to the West, particularly to the U.S., because of its oil. Its society still leaves a lot to be desired, where religious dogma reigns supreme, a very dangerous situation, as previous radicalized elements have created chaos, responsible for 9/11, even when Irak, innocent of them, was invaded. There is no freedom of the press whatsoever. Women aren't allowed even to drive a car, in a retrograde thinking suggestive of a macho society, afraid of its own shadow. Not all is lost however, as the Saudis have maintained one thing stable, and which a thirsty world expects, the 'free' flow of oil.
2
Well, if I was being purely Machiavellian, I would say that the answer is a 30-40 year conflagration between the Sunnis and Shiites that recalls all the believers from ports near and far, results in hundreds of millions of deaths, while the West sits back and supplies weapons to both sides. Lots of bombs blowing up sand and military targets.
1
You can study something from every angle and every possible vantage point and still never come to a way to deal with it rationally. We have no idea how to measure the contributions of our own inconsistencies and contradiction in this, and we won't even attempt it because it isn't 'FUN'. Time and circumstance take care of many things (no recurring wars between Germany and France, etc.), we will wait for it with our customary generational impatience leading us to make possibly even worse decisions.
1
It happens fairly rarely, but this is one time I find myself mostly agreeing with Mr. Douthat's analysis. He's right that Saudi exports only oil and extremism. It is our need for the former alone that ties us to them. So why no mention of energy independence? Solar, wind, natural gas, and even cleaner coal could all help us reduce dependence on foreign oil. A concerted national effort to make these domestic and especially renewable energy sources mainstream would solve this problem. And in the interim, maximizing on the fact that the Saudis need us as much as we need them could gain us some leverage and influence.
1
Mr. Douthat:
This very direct indictment of our dependency on oil is a welcome addition to the argument for alternative energy. The very pragmatic political problems we face in the middleast compromise our security and our purported
values. The military is firmly on board with the ugly realities that we will face as the result of current climate projections. Does compromising national security so that we can remain on good terms with gangsters really have a future? There is no future with oil.
Welcome to the fight. Now, let us see if we can change some minds on the realities of climate change. At this point there should be no room in the debate for climate change deniers.
This very direct indictment of our dependency on oil is a welcome addition to the argument for alternative energy. The very pragmatic political problems we face in the middleast compromise our security and our purported
values. The military is firmly on board with the ugly realities that we will face as the result of current climate projections. Does compromising national security so that we can remain on good terms with gangsters really have a future? There is no future with oil.
Welcome to the fight. Now, let us see if we can change some minds on the realities of climate change. At this point there should be no room in the debate for climate change deniers.
4
The symbiosis between the USA and Saudi Arabia is the trade in military hardware and its profitable corruption for the ruling classes of both countries. In Saudi Arabia this means kick-backs for the princely deal-makers; in the USA it means campaign contributions from corporations to their lackeys in legislature. Oil is simply the means for this racketeering to continue.
Nothing will change until we have sweeping campaign finance reform in this country.
Nothing will change until we have sweeping campaign finance reform in this country.
3
The answer is simple Ross.
The USA must become energy independent by making best possible use of renewable energy AND fossil fuel resources. Do it --- and then ignore them all.
The thousands of billions spent on defense could instead be loosed to foster the designs of the much revered "job creators" at home.
Now put all that into action by actually supporting what's needed to accomplish that. Anything less is just tilting at windmills, which is exactly where Amurcas' political leadership has been stuck for the past 40 years.
Good luck with that.
The USA must become energy independent by making best possible use of renewable energy AND fossil fuel resources. Do it --- and then ignore them all.
The thousands of billions spent on defense could instead be loosed to foster the designs of the much revered "job creators" at home.
Now put all that into action by actually supporting what's needed to accomplish that. Anything less is just tilting at windmills, which is exactly where Amurcas' political leadership has been stuck for the past 40 years.
Good luck with that.
9
Well, it had to happen, sooner or later:
I finally have read an Op-Ed column from Mr. Douthat I can mostly agree with.
It's time we faced the fact that the Saudi's, with their extremely repressive society, and overwhelming efforts to fund Muslim schools all over the world, that largely spread their highly intolerant and repressive version of Islam, has been one of the pillars upon which Hardline Muslim Fundamentalism was built.
Throwing a few bones at women, while leaving them barely able to function as members of society, and barely autonomous without a man around, is nothing even remotely close to reform and modernity. In fact, the painfully few gains wonen got only further illustrated all they are not even remotely close to getting. Then there is death for disrespecting Islam, terrorist charges for driving if you are a woman, public floggings and beheadings, horror for wonen who have been raped... and don't forget the death charges for witchcraft.
I can only pray that true reform will come someday soon.
I finally have read an Op-Ed column from Mr. Douthat I can mostly agree with.
It's time we faced the fact that the Saudi's, with their extremely repressive society, and overwhelming efforts to fund Muslim schools all over the world, that largely spread their highly intolerant and repressive version of Islam, has been one of the pillars upon which Hardline Muslim Fundamentalism was built.
Throwing a few bones at women, while leaving them barely able to function as members of society, and barely autonomous without a man around, is nothing even remotely close to reform and modernity. In fact, the painfully few gains wonen got only further illustrated all they are not even remotely close to getting. Then there is death for disrespecting Islam, terrorist charges for driving if you are a woman, public floggings and beheadings, horror for wonen who have been raped... and don't forget the death charges for witchcraft.
I can only pray that true reform will come someday soon.
9
Ironically, for a country so mired in ancient repressive ways as Saudi Arabia, the best way to sum up the place - and, alas, our relationship with it - is found at the end of a much more modern work, that classic number by The Who, 'Won't Be Fooled Again': "Meet the new boss, Same as the old boss."
Theoretically we could develop, or at least frack our way free of this most dodgy crew, but there's one huge problem - American investment, not only in terms of dollars but, vastly more importantly, HUMANS. We have a lot of people working over there, and a modest review of that region's history discloses a pronounced and disturbing tendency to quickly turn 'honoured guests' into hostages when things go wrong. In all fairness, this is one thing that can't be blamed on Islam. The ancient Persians, a good 1200 years before Mohammed came into this world, were already past masters at that often gruesome game.
In other words: 'Houston, we have a problem.' And this time, there's no lunar module available. The solution - if ever achieved - is going to take a LOT of time. And risk. And subtlety, if it's to happen at all.
Theoretically we could develop, or at least frack our way free of this most dodgy crew, but there's one huge problem - American investment, not only in terms of dollars but, vastly more importantly, HUMANS. We have a lot of people working over there, and a modest review of that region's history discloses a pronounced and disturbing tendency to quickly turn 'honoured guests' into hostages when things go wrong. In all fairness, this is one thing that can't be blamed on Islam. The ancient Persians, a good 1200 years before Mohammed came into this world, were already past masters at that often gruesome game.
In other words: 'Houston, we have a problem.' And this time, there's no lunar module available. The solution - if ever achieved - is going to take a LOT of time. And risk. And subtlety, if it's to happen at all.
1
The nation of Saudi Arabia made a great return on is investment in Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. No doubt the return was on the order of 100% per year.
Here is how it worked. The Saudis created the ideology and financed "charities" which passed money to Al Qaeda. AQ did its thing, and then we started two wars of "nation building": Afghanistan and Iraq.
No human activity sucks up oil at a faster rate than American nation building, which involves a lot of fossil fuel guzzlers in the form of naval ships, airplanes, and sundry land vehicles. (By the way, when those two wars winded down, an oil glut ensued. That is why the price of oil has tanked - no pun intended.)
To sum up, the Saudi strategy was fund terrorism and sit back and watch the dollars for oil pour in. (Oil is fungible.)
My view is that instead of building nations, we should have destroyed the nation of Saudi Arabia after 9/11.
Here is how it worked. The Saudis created the ideology and financed "charities" which passed money to Al Qaeda. AQ did its thing, and then we started two wars of "nation building": Afghanistan and Iraq.
No human activity sucks up oil at a faster rate than American nation building, which involves a lot of fossil fuel guzzlers in the form of naval ships, airplanes, and sundry land vehicles. (By the way, when those two wars winded down, an oil glut ensued. That is why the price of oil has tanked - no pun intended.)
To sum up, the Saudi strategy was fund terrorism and sit back and watch the dollars for oil pour in. (Oil is fungible.)
My view is that instead of building nations, we should have destroyed the nation of Saudi Arabia after 9/11.
8
In find it amazing to say this, but yes, for once I agree with you. The Saudis are not our friends. We don't have to be friends to do business.
This idea of needing good "relations" with a country, so that we can buy the only product they have to sell, has always seemed a bit strange to me. It's a vital product, yes, but there is a market, and they have to sell the stuff to survive. If we don't buy from the Saudis, they will try to sell it to someone else. And we can buy from someone else or take it out of our own reserves. It's not like they're doing anyone a huge favor if they sell it for too little or try to sell it for too much.
So as far as I can see, this dead king was a monster, as is his entire clan. With the possible exception of the two daughters named in the article.
The wonder is that after 9/11 we did not bomb his country into oblivion for starting this Wahabi (sp?) nonsense. Instead, for some odd reason, we took it out the Iraqis, who are not even close to as mean-spirited and primitive as the Saudis. (Actually we are mainly cursed with radical Islam, another name for pure evil, due to Saudi influences, so I really do not care how I spell "Wahabi.")
This idea of needing good "relations" with a country, so that we can buy the only product they have to sell, has always seemed a bit strange to me. It's a vital product, yes, but there is a market, and they have to sell the stuff to survive. If we don't buy from the Saudis, they will try to sell it to someone else. And we can buy from someone else or take it out of our own reserves. It's not like they're doing anyone a huge favor if they sell it for too little or try to sell it for too much.
So as far as I can see, this dead king was a monster, as is his entire clan. With the possible exception of the two daughters named in the article.
The wonder is that after 9/11 we did not bomb his country into oblivion for starting this Wahabi (sp?) nonsense. Instead, for some odd reason, we took it out the Iraqis, who are not even close to as mean-spirited and primitive as the Saudis. (Actually we are mainly cursed with radical Islam, another name for pure evil, due to Saudi influences, so I really do not care how I spell "Wahabi.")
6
Astute essay. Kerry's tribute could have pointed out that the king helped slow down Fracking in The United States, that would have provided his words some substance. But my altruism flies out the truck window as I fill up for two fifteen a gallon. $1.96 at Costco. If I had more containers, I would hoard. Cheap gas is like a trip back in time to when hands were cut off for thievery and women weren't allowed to drive; back in time about 15 minutes in the place my guilty gasoline begins it's life.
1
The way out is clear: Energy independence. We need nuclear, solar, and wind power, coupled with full exploitation of our own oil and natural gas resources.
Some of these carry risks, but none so great as the transfer of our wealth to the despots and terrorists.
Some of these carry risks, but none so great as the transfer of our wealth to the despots and terrorists.
8
As someone who lived in Saudi for 7 years, all with Abdullah as king, this article misses the mark in many ways. Abdullah did not make significant, startling, major changes. To suggest that he could have done this easily is very simplistic. Saudi is a balancing act between tribes, between family dynamics, between sects of the same religion, and between the secular and religious system that runs the country.
Abdullah, may his soul know peace, did succeed in making a LOT of small changes in ways that directly impacted Saudis. Secular law was strengthened and he Haia (religious police, aka the Commission for the Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue) was modernized. The Haia's ability to interfere in the lives of the Saudi citizenry has been challenged at several levels and reforms pushed through. Some will stick, I am sure, some will not. Abdullah also established scholarships that have seen unprecedented numbers of young Saudis go overseas to the West and study. This beachhead is too early to gain results; but as someone who worked with Western-trained Saudis, who want the best for their country, I can assure you that change is going to come. During my last month in Saudi I looked out a window out onto Tahlia Street in Riyadh, to see three men walking - one in thobe and shmaug, one in jeans and t shirt and one in shorts and t-shirt. That is the juxtaposition of Saudi in a nutshell because those clothes also represent ways of thinking that are changing the kingdom.
Abdullah, may his soul know peace, did succeed in making a LOT of small changes in ways that directly impacted Saudis. Secular law was strengthened and he Haia (religious police, aka the Commission for the Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue) was modernized. The Haia's ability to interfere in the lives of the Saudi citizenry has been challenged at several levels and reforms pushed through. Some will stick, I am sure, some will not. Abdullah also established scholarships that have seen unprecedented numbers of young Saudis go overseas to the West and study. This beachhead is too early to gain results; but as someone who worked with Western-trained Saudis, who want the best for their country, I can assure you that change is going to come. During my last month in Saudi I looked out a window out onto Tahlia Street in Riyadh, to see three men walking - one in thobe and shmaug, one in jeans and t shirt and one in shorts and t-shirt. That is the juxtaposition of Saudi in a nutshell because those clothes also represent ways of thinking that are changing the kingdom.
8
A lot of small changes may be all that Abdullah could do. Small wins can add up and if they become ensconced can lead to more changes, small and larger. A leader unable to move a large bloc of troglodyte opponents, taking small bites around the margins, somehow that sounds strangely familiar.
1
My fellow readers are living a fantasy if they think the U.S. is energy independent. If the Saudis significantly curbed production these current low gas prices would soon disappear. Energy independence requires us to fore- sake fossil fuels...a truly long term project. We have to maintain good relations with the Saudis until we accomplish that goal which with our present leadership is unattainable. Like it or not that authoritarian regime is better for us than the chaos that would ensue following the demise of the House of Saud.
4
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Carter had been re-elected, or if Reagan had taken a path to reduce our oil dependency. Imagine how many problems we wouldn't be mired in now (not the least of which is the destruction of the planet, but certainly connected is our dysfunctional marriage with the Saudis and the wars in Iraq) if 35 years ago we had moved in the direction of higher MPG instead of SUVs and alternative energy sources.
143
Thank you for pointing your finger at Uncle Ronnie. He is still the patron saint to many conservatives. The truth is, he didn't understand economics at all, was blind to the future consequences of his actions internationally, and ignored the coming threats he should have known would eventually arrive.
He is still referred to as the great communicator, but his real specialty was slight of hand. He worked his magic to the amusement of those whose engagement in politics is defined by their need to feel relevant because they are allowed to vote despite their lack of historical knowledge. He was a "B" star in Washington, just as in Hollywood, but the critics were ignored by those who only like war movies and revenge seeking heroes.
He is still referred to as the great communicator, but his real specialty was slight of hand. He worked his magic to the amusement of those whose engagement in politics is defined by their need to feel relevant because they are allowed to vote despite their lack of historical knowledge. He was a "B" star in Washington, just as in Hollywood, but the critics were ignored by those who only like war movies and revenge seeking heroes.
4
Very apt point, and Reagan also worked to increase the national speed limit back to 69 mph.
1
More than a decade ago, Saleh al-Kallab, a former minister of information in Jordan, put it much more aptly and succinctly. He noted that “The relationship between the United States and the Arab regimes is like a Catholic marriage where you can have no divorce.” This is particularly true of the Saudi-American relationship. Although low level British civil servants drew the arbitrary maps as they exited their colonies, it was the Americans that signed the oil deal with Saudi Arabia in what was, at that time, considered a major coup. Little did they know that this marriage could not be annulled.
26
Well, I just don't know here. The very fact that for the first time in history we are achieving some modicum of energy independence should be a harbinger of things to come in terms of extricating ourselves from the Saudis.
T'was a tough price to pay to quickly shuttle Saudi dignitaries back to the Middle East in the dead of night following 9/11. Somebody somewhere realized how they'd be torn apart if they stayed a second longer.
Then in all the post-9/11 decade, the goal was to get rid of Saudi dependence--it's mercurial hand on the oil spigot through OPEC, to our unholy alliance to maintain "stability" in the region.
But the Saudis are becoming more and more irrelevant and useful as time goes on. We want them as an ally against ISIS, but the forces of ISIS are mirrored in the Kingdom. And anyway, with allies like them, who needs allies? Just what are they doing to help us on the terror front anyway?
So sure, we have a "special" relationship that grows less special every day. If we keep treading the course we have been on the energy front, I believe that soon we'll be able to kiss these Princes and Kings goodbye.
T'was a tough price to pay to quickly shuttle Saudi dignitaries back to the Middle East in the dead of night following 9/11. Somebody somewhere realized how they'd be torn apart if they stayed a second longer.
Then in all the post-9/11 decade, the goal was to get rid of Saudi dependence--it's mercurial hand on the oil spigot through OPEC, to our unholy alliance to maintain "stability" in the region.
But the Saudis are becoming more and more irrelevant and useful as time goes on. We want them as an ally against ISIS, but the forces of ISIS are mirrored in the Kingdom. And anyway, with allies like them, who needs allies? Just what are they doing to help us on the terror front anyway?
So sure, we have a "special" relationship that grows less special every day. If we keep treading the course we have been on the energy front, I believe that soon we'll be able to kiss these Princes and Kings goodbye.
30
Here are some realities. The fracking "miracle" is already over. $45 oil doesn't get it done. Saudis had nothing to do with 9/11 and ISIS is a CIA construct. Perhaps you should refer to sources other than the Times in order to accurately assess the current circumstance.
As a muslim I was shocked that the New York Times called Mr. Abdullah a "reformer." The tact we should have chosen is to remember the great crimes Mr. Abdullah supported everyday against its own people. He was not "shackled" to his kingdom. His kingdom was shackled to him.
74
"A king is dead, but our Saudi nightmare is a long way from being finished."
Nightmare is a pretty strong word. When you were weighing the costs and benefits of environmental policy, the appropriate amount to spend addressing climate change turned out, predictably, to be the very amount your dysfunctional party is willing to invest: exactly zero. The value of taking even the first step toward ending that nightmare, as you say, never entered into your sophistry.
Nightmare is a pretty strong word. When you were weighing the costs and benefits of environmental policy, the appropriate amount to spend addressing climate change turned out, predictably, to be the very amount your dysfunctional party is willing to invest: exactly zero. The value of taking even the first step toward ending that nightmare, as you say, never entered into your sophistry.
11
Nightmare indeed, especially if you aren't a male, but your words are spot-on. What's Dout-that's answer?
How is it possible that American foreign policy cozied up to these autocratic, corrupt and dictatorial monarchs in Saudi Arabia? We know about the oil wealth making the Bush family call one of their princes "Bandar Bush". But how can Americans still support this corrupt country with their insistence on a veneer of Modernity while still oppressing women, public executions and playboy princes carousing all over the world?
A revolution in Saudi Arabia isn't such a bad idea. They need it and we need to distance ourselves from this corrupt and incompetent family monarchy.
A revolution in Saudi Arabia isn't such a bad idea. They need it and we need to distance ourselves from this corrupt and incompetent family monarchy.
34
Rudyard Kipling seems to have written the epitaph for western foreign policy and its self-regarding elites over a century ago:
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of
the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: "A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the
East."
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of
the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: "A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the
East."
41
Starting out by addressing the late Saudi King by his full name and correct official title, Mr. Douthat attempts to project some depth of knowledge about the King and about Saudi Arabia.
But like a movie critic reviewing a movie he has never seen, Mr. Douthat sounds exactly like who he is: Someone who has never spent time within Saudi Arabia.
I'm sure Mr. Douthat has spent time talking with people who have visited Saudi Arabia as government delegates, maybe even as term diplomats. But his knowledge is vicarious, his insight limited.
What we choose to describe as nightmares, as Mr. Douthat describes Saudi Arabia, are precisely those things we are frightened by because we do not know them, and cannot explain them.
If Saudi Arabia remains our nightmare, that is only the measure of our continued, willful ignorance. And we are indeed always prisoners of our own ignorance.
But like a movie critic reviewing a movie he has never seen, Mr. Douthat sounds exactly like who he is: Someone who has never spent time within Saudi Arabia.
I'm sure Mr. Douthat has spent time talking with people who have visited Saudi Arabia as government delegates, maybe even as term diplomats. But his knowledge is vicarious, his insight limited.
What we choose to describe as nightmares, as Mr. Douthat describes Saudi Arabia, are precisely those things we are frightened by because we do not know them, and cannot explain them.
If Saudi Arabia remains our nightmare, that is only the measure of our continued, willful ignorance. And we are indeed always prisoners of our own ignorance.
4
My ignorance is not willful, I read your comment waiting to learn something. Alas, I remain ignorant and uninformed. I sense you have been a term diplomat to Saudi Arabia. Write it up, post it somewhere and I'll read it. I'm ignorant, but not by my own volition.
5
I worked as a teacher/tutor, not as a diplomat. Perhaps the most important thing one learns is that Saudi society is quite heterogeneous. While certain rules must be followed, other allowances seem contradictory. For instance: Restaurants and stores must be closed during daily prayers (5 times per day). And yet, traffic (Heavy in Riyadh) is not stopped. In other words, many people are not stopping for prayers. On the radio, young people can listen to American hip-hop and r&b. On cable tv one can see just about anything one can see in the US. (On the other hand, on movies aboard Saudi Air, even the area exposed by a woman's quite modest v-neck blouse will be "fogged," as will her legs, if she is wearing a modest knee length skirt.) It is optional in public for women to cover their faces. At a major university built under Abdullah, male and female students and professors mix, and traditional clothing is not required in the non-public spaces. In fact, higher education is the big thing we should know about. 150,000 Saudis study abroad annually, most in Anglophone countries, 50,000 of them women. In Saudi, 750,000 university students attend for free. 60% of these students are women. Saudis are among the biggest users of social media in the world. Simply, it would help us to realize that Saudi society is anything but monolithic. And social reforms are constrained by the religious establishment, not by the ruling family. Saudis as people are as varied as Americans.
3
This is something I would like Marc Rubio and other hypocritical politicians to explain to me. What is the difference between diplomatic relations with Cuba and Saudi Arabia. Compared to Saudi Arabia Cuba is a model of human rights. Last time I checked they do not whip journalists, behead people and hang them in public, oh and women can drive in Cuba.
Saudi Arabia ranks 127th out of 136 for gender parity. We do not like despotic rulers? There were no Cubans on those planes on 911, but there were several Saudis.
Saudi Arabia ranks 127th out of 136 for gender parity. We do not like despotic rulers? There were no Cubans on those planes on 911, but there were several Saudis.
128
The explanation should be simple. Politicians parade principle, but they actually go by the wishes of their "base". Mr. Obama, mayor di Blasio, and Marco Rubio have all played this game, putting their voting blocs above public interest.
You are right to complain about Rubio and normalization of relations with Cuba was long overdue. But it should be understandable why Rubio is singing a song which his base loves and which no one else even hears.
You are right to complain about Rubio and normalization of relations with Cuba was long overdue. But it should be understandable why Rubio is singing a song which his base loves and which no one else even hears.
1
I fail to understand the wisdom of John Kerry that he was a man of wisdom and vision. Anybody can explain to me how.
9
Just imagine if the US, instead of spending 62 years deposing an elected government in Iran, arming Saddam Hussein, arming what became the Taliban, funding the theft of Palestinian land, propping up dictators from the Shah to Mubrak, the House of Saud, the massively futile, criminally mismanaged occupation of Afghanistan and the ludicrous Charge of The Fools Brigade into Iraq, had spent that effort, those years and those trillions of dollars on renewable energy, fuel efficient vehicles and good mass transit.
We would never have needed to betray our ideals by playing chums with thugs.
We would never have needed to betray our ideals by playing chums with thugs.
124
This is nothing more than the usual progessive "when in doubt blame the United States and the West for every Mid East trainwreck" talking points that are becoming old and boring. Mubarak was exonerated of all charges. Palestinians have rejected every single offer of a state of their own. There was already a power struggle in Iran in 1953 before we got tripped up in that sorry quagmire. I'm willing to bet my next measly pay check that the Iranians would welcome another coup, get rid of the theocracy and put the Shah's son on the Peacock throne. It's time to abandon the progressive party line already,
2
FDR had a much clearer understanding of foreign policy than your late lamented neocons, Ross.
After dealing with the Great Depression, he had to become "Dr. Win the War," as he put it.
This required holding his nose as he assuaged "Uncle Joe" (the Soviet mass murderer, Joseph Stalin).
The House of Saud is most cruel and distasteful, as you point out. But the mullahs of Teheran pose an existential threat to Israel, and will send every Suni country in the region to the nuclear black market, so as not to be "punked" by Persian thugs with nukes.
The Iranians are, by far, the greater threat to our interests.
After dealing with the Great Depression, he had to become "Dr. Win the War," as he put it.
This required holding his nose as he assuaged "Uncle Joe" (the Soviet mass murderer, Joseph Stalin).
The House of Saud is most cruel and distasteful, as you point out. But the mullahs of Teheran pose an existential threat to Israel, and will send every Suni country in the region to the nuclear black market, so as not to be "punked" by Persian thugs with nukes.
The Iranians are, by far, the greater threat to our interests.
6
Would that be the same FDR who put more than a hundred thousand Japanese Americans in concentration camps? The FDR who refused to declare war on Hitler until the latter declared war on America?
Not that I particularly admire neo-cons like Bush (and McCain). But the list of fools and villains does not stop with the Republican party. There are plenty of them outside that party.
As for the "existential" threat to Israel, Israel has done a lot to foster it. It should pursue the process of peace rather than bully its neighbors, relying on US support and its own superior military technology. That dynamic and aggressive country could be a vital asset to the Middle East. But no one seems to actively pursue that goal.
Not that I particularly admire neo-cons like Bush (and McCain). But the list of fools and villains does not stop with the Republican party. There are plenty of them outside that party.
As for the "existential" threat to Israel, Israel has done a lot to foster it. It should pursue the process of peace rather than bully its neighbors, relying on US support and its own superior military technology. That dynamic and aggressive country could be a vital asset to the Middle East. But no one seems to actively pursue that goal.
5
You are confusing "our interests" with Israel's. Face the facts: it's just another foreign country, another Middle Eastern theocracy.
4
Clinton's peace attempts, if they had succeeded, might have set off other changes in the Middle East, and he came fairly close to success. Dubya's invasion had no hope of turning out the way he wanted because he had done no planning for the subsequent occupation.
Islamic extremism, promoted by Saudi Arabia through the schools its citizens fund and by the behavior of the Saudi government, has spread to Nigeria, Pakistan, the Philippines, Sudan, and other places far from Mecca, and to individual Muslims all over the world. We react, but have no strategy.
We need for a different Islamic theology to be promulgated from the holy sites of Islam. This would cause an uproar in Saudi Arabia, but it is the only way to really chip away at the problems we face.
Islamic extremism, promoted by Saudi Arabia through the schools its citizens fund and by the behavior of the Saudi government, has spread to Nigeria, Pakistan, the Philippines, Sudan, and other places far from Mecca, and to individual Muslims all over the world. We react, but have no strategy.
We need for a different Islamic theology to be promulgated from the holy sites of Islam. This would cause an uproar in Saudi Arabia, but it is the only way to really chip away at the problems we face.
15
A radical (though probably impractical) proposal I would make is to eliminate the practice of hajj whereby every Muslim is required to visit the holy sites in Mecca once in his life time. This practice increases Saudi influence and dilutes the influence of more moderate Islamic countries like Indonesia (where Obama once lived) and Bangladesh which has had several female heads of state.
If God is everywhere (and my own belief is that either he is nowhere or he is everywhere) Islam needs to cut its umbilical cord to the Saudis.
If God is everywhere (and my own belief is that either he is nowhere or he is everywhere) Islam needs to cut its umbilical cord to the Saudis.
1
Well I guess if you wait long enough you can find something on which you can agree with practically anyone. Mr. Douthat is absolutely spot-on with respect to King Abdullah and his dubious legacy. With regard to our own nation, however, I agree with his diagnosis but not with the perceived difficulty of reaching a solution. As I've stated many times previously, the Middle East (and most of Southwest Asia) produces only two things in abundance: oil and religious extremists. With the possible exception of Jordan there isn't a country east of Turkey, west of India and north of the Sahel whose government is worth spitting on. We can get our petroleum elsewhere (to the extent that our own diggers and frackers can't satisfy that need) and our own religious extremists are somewhat less sanguinary than theirs. Which is to say there's absolutely nothing to keep us there beyond the limits of our imagination and our incessant urge to meddle. The king is dead, long live the king, call us if you need us (but only if you're ready to join the 21st century).
115
There is also Israel and it's importance in American politics.
Princesses Sahar, 42, and Jawaher, 38, daughters of the late King Abdullah, say they and their sisters have been held prisoner in the royal palace for 14 years in a guarded villa in the royal compound in Jeddah.
Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world that prohibits women from driving. Under Saudi law, girls and women are forbidden from travelling, conducting official business, or undergoing certain medical procedures without the express permission of their male guardians. It scored 130th out of 134 countries analysed by the World Economic forum in a 2009 report on gender parity.
But the restrictions allegedly placed on Sahar and Jawaher go far beyond what is allowed under Saudi law. Their mother Alanoud Alfayez, who is divorced from the King, has written to the UN's human rights agency to intervene on their behalf. She told the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights that her daughters are 'imprisoned, held against their will, cut off from the world.'
Their crimes? They complained to their father about the poverty endured by most of the Saudi people. Sahar got a job as a teller in a bank, which the King didn't allow. Finally, Hala, who has a degree in psychology, complained that the regime's political opponents were being locked up in the psychiatric wards of the hospital where she worked. The King told his daughters last year that their brothers would continue their house arrest once he died.
This King is the person leaders in the West are praising.
Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world that prohibits women from driving. Under Saudi law, girls and women are forbidden from travelling, conducting official business, or undergoing certain medical procedures without the express permission of their male guardians. It scored 130th out of 134 countries analysed by the World Economic forum in a 2009 report on gender parity.
But the restrictions allegedly placed on Sahar and Jawaher go far beyond what is allowed under Saudi law. Their mother Alanoud Alfayez, who is divorced from the King, has written to the UN's human rights agency to intervene on their behalf. She told the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights that her daughters are 'imprisoned, held against their will, cut off from the world.'
Their crimes? They complained to their father about the poverty endured by most of the Saudi people. Sahar got a job as a teller in a bank, which the King didn't allow. Finally, Hala, who has a degree in psychology, complained that the regime's political opponents were being locked up in the psychiatric wards of the hospital where she worked. The King told his daughters last year that their brothers would continue their house arrest once he died.
This King is the person leaders in the West are praising.
201
Ross, there is a way to extricate ourselves from our dysfunctional relationship with Saudi Arabia. The precise mechanism for doing may yet be a mystery, but I strongly suspect that a central component of that mechanism will require us to politically confront and neutralize the corporate interests that keep us tethered to this reactionary kingdom, and to petroleum in general.
America needs to become energy independent - and the best way of achieving this goal in our era of looming environmental crisis is surely to double down on conservation and renewable resources, to pursue the development of these resources and efficiencies as strenuously as the scientists of the Manhattan Project pursued the atomic bomb. Doing so remains a matter of vital national security.
If we attempt to drill our way, through exploiting shale oil reserves in Canada, we court almost certain environmental crisis in the decades ahead.
The God of the Bible promised that He would never again seek to destroy his creation though flood - but gave us the liberty to destroy our civilization any way we wish.
America needs to become energy independent - and the best way of achieving this goal in our era of looming environmental crisis is surely to double down on conservation and renewable resources, to pursue the development of these resources and efficiencies as strenuously as the scientists of the Manhattan Project pursued the atomic bomb. Doing so remains a matter of vital national security.
If we attempt to drill our way, through exploiting shale oil reserves in Canada, we court almost certain environmental crisis in the decades ahead.
The God of the Bible promised that He would never again seek to destroy his creation though flood - but gave us the liberty to destroy our civilization any way we wish.
172
The earth will again be destroyed by a flood. But it will be our doing as we ignore our contribution to climate change.
2
Matthew,
Canada is not only self sufficient in petroleum it is a major exporter. Canada's and Russia's economies are in deep trouble. We live in a global economy and Russian oligarchs, Western democracies and Wall Street financiers are all held hostage on the daily disposition of a middle eastern despot. That is what Carter tried to tell us 35 years ago.
Canada is not only self sufficient in petroleum it is a major exporter. Canada's and Russia's economies are in deep trouble. We live in a global economy and Russian oligarchs, Western democracies and Wall Street financiers are all held hostage on the daily disposition of a middle eastern despot. That is what Carter tried to tell us 35 years ago.
14
solar. long-term R&D paid for by government.
geothermal too.
geothermal too.
5
I don't get to say this very often, but I largely agree with Mr. Douthat's take on Abdullah. The man led a tyrannical government that is stuck in Dark Ages, brutally oppresses its own people, finances terrorism throughout the world, and sows the seeds of war in the Middle East. It is patently absurd that the US media and government, including Secretary of State John Kerry and Senator John McCain, are acting as if Abdullah was a man of peace and modernity.
I do, however, have to disagree with Mr. Douthat's effort to treat President Obama's Mideast efforts as essentially of the same piece as Bush/Cheney's. The reality is that much of President Obama's efforts have had to be on cleaning up the mess left by the failed Bush/Cheney policies. Obama has largely avoided digging the hole even deeper, has not lied his way into an unnecessary war, resisted the right-wing calls to invade Syria, managed to get Syria to give up its chemical weapons, and is getting close to a deal that should keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons.
President Obama's record on the Mideast is certainly far from perfect, and he certainly hasn't transformed the region overnight. But no one could have done so, as achieving peace in that region will be a long, arduous process. But let's not pretend that Obama's policies have been the disaster that Bush/Cheney's were.
https://www.facebook.com/WinningProgressive
I do, however, have to disagree with Mr. Douthat's effort to treat President Obama's Mideast efforts as essentially of the same piece as Bush/Cheney's. The reality is that much of President Obama's efforts have had to be on cleaning up the mess left by the failed Bush/Cheney policies. Obama has largely avoided digging the hole even deeper, has not lied his way into an unnecessary war, resisted the right-wing calls to invade Syria, managed to get Syria to give up its chemical weapons, and is getting close to a deal that should keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons.
President Obama's record on the Mideast is certainly far from perfect, and he certainly hasn't transformed the region overnight. But no one could have done so, as achieving peace in that region will be a long, arduous process. But let's not pretend that Obama's policies have been the disaster that Bush/Cheney's were.
https://www.facebook.com/WinningProgressive
249
How the advent of ISIS in Syria and Iraq, along with the red line debacle in Syria, isn't "digging the hole deeper" then clearly you don't know what a shovel is.
3
Ross sort of admits that here: "Here Obama’s experiences are of a piece with Bush’s, albeit without the same cost in blood and treasure."
1
@Jonathan Roth: How the advent of ISIS in Syria and Iraq is any of Obama's doing, along with the red line "debacle" - which resulted in Syria's removing ALL chemical weapons - is "digging the hole deeper" then clearly you don't know what a fact is.
3
The Saudi/U.S. relationship underscores the hypocrisy of our foreign policy.
15 of the 19 terrorists who attacked the U.S. were Saudi. Our response--permit Saudis to flee the U.S. in their jets while the rest of us were grounded. Absolutely no public investigation of Saudi's involvement in 9/11. We bombed and occupied Iraq, even though it had nothing to do with 9/11 and we still have 10,000 troops in Afghanistan, even though bin Laden left over a decade ago.
A leaked Wikileaks cable described Saudi as the biggest State funder of terrorism. Its brand of fundamental Islam and exportation of it in the Middle are well-documented, yet we focus all of our hate and sanctions on Iran.
The Saudis are useful idiots for the U.S. and vice versa. We buy their oil and they buy our weapons. We overlook their financing of terrorism, while they overlook our invasion and occupation of neighboring countries. They even permit us to station drones within their border.
The moral of the story is the U.S. cares not about freedom, democracy or human rights abroad. Saudi Arabia is Exhibit A to every other Country in the World. Do what we ask, don't fight our imperialist ambitions, serve our economic interests, and we will allow you do do what ever you want.
Our moral proselytizing, sanctions and bombs are reserved for those countries who don't fall in line.
15 of the 19 terrorists who attacked the U.S. were Saudi. Our response--permit Saudis to flee the U.S. in their jets while the rest of us were grounded. Absolutely no public investigation of Saudi's involvement in 9/11. We bombed and occupied Iraq, even though it had nothing to do with 9/11 and we still have 10,000 troops in Afghanistan, even though bin Laden left over a decade ago.
A leaked Wikileaks cable described Saudi as the biggest State funder of terrorism. Its brand of fundamental Islam and exportation of it in the Middle are well-documented, yet we focus all of our hate and sanctions on Iran.
The Saudis are useful idiots for the U.S. and vice versa. We buy their oil and they buy our weapons. We overlook their financing of terrorism, while they overlook our invasion and occupation of neighboring countries. They even permit us to station drones within their border.
The moral of the story is the U.S. cares not about freedom, democracy or human rights abroad. Saudi Arabia is Exhibit A to every other Country in the World. Do what we ask, don't fight our imperialist ambitions, serve our economic interests, and we will allow you do do what ever you want.
Our moral proselytizing, sanctions and bombs are reserved for those countries who don't fall in line.
345
You see that "15 of the 19 terrorists were Saudi " fairly frequently, but my understanding was that Saudi nationals could get visas to the U.S. without much problem, whereas young Yemeni,Pakistani, Lybian or other members of al Qaeda were felt to be at risk for being economic migrants, and either couldn't get visas, or were blocked by customs. So Saudis were used. In addition, the idea that the Saudi government funneled money to al Qaeda is fairly silly. Al qaeda called for the death and overthrow of the Saudi royals back in the mid 90s if I recall correctly, and on at least one occasion came very close to killing one of the princes. There are problems in Saudi arabia, no doubt. (Been there, seen them) However, it is not as simple as "the evil empire", and there are many reasons, not just oil, that the U.S. Has close ties to the Saudi regime. Besides, a lot of the Saudi funding of Islamist groups in the afpak region started at the behest of the U.S. During the 80s when the Islamists were hailed as freedom fighters.
1
Ross Douthat, who often presents himself as a movie buff, should watch Fahrenheit 911. The film includes a fascinating expose of the Bush family's business relationship with the Saudis and the egregious security breaches in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 that resulted.
Michael Moore was right.
Michael Moore was right.
11
The Saudis didn't use their own jets to leave after 9/11. They used our jets.
4
The evils of Saudi Arabia that Douthat catalogs seem to be eerily similar to our own. Conservatism exists along a continuum, but the general characteristics are always the same. Only term limits and the swing of the political pendulum stand between the U.S. and the excesses of Middle East ern potentates.
Douthat sneers at the former king's trivial gifts to women. But in this country there are ongoing attempts by conservatives to weaken abortion rights, even though these rights were granted by the Supreme Court 40 years ago.
Interfaith relations may be lip service in Saudi Arabia, but the U.S. is a de facto Christian nation, even though our constitution overtly separates church and state. It's almost impossible for a declared atheist to be elected to public office in this country. Moreover, in "The Middle East's Friendless Christians," 9/13/2014, Douthat refers to the U.S. as a "majority-Christian superpower," suggesting that our religious identity should cause us to do more for Christians under attack in the Middle East.
It seems that Douthat's take on the Middle East is that he prefers his own conservative Catholic form of authoritarianism over the Saudi variety. From our treatment of women, the attacks on abortion rights, the castigation of gays and lesbians, to the egregious income inequality that supports oligarchs to the exclusion of the poor and middle class, we seem to differ from the Saudis only by degree.
Douthat sneers at the former king's trivial gifts to women. But in this country there are ongoing attempts by conservatives to weaken abortion rights, even though these rights were granted by the Supreme Court 40 years ago.
Interfaith relations may be lip service in Saudi Arabia, but the U.S. is a de facto Christian nation, even though our constitution overtly separates church and state. It's almost impossible for a declared atheist to be elected to public office in this country. Moreover, in "The Middle East's Friendless Christians," 9/13/2014, Douthat refers to the U.S. as a "majority-Christian superpower," suggesting that our religious identity should cause us to do more for Christians under attack in the Middle East.
It seems that Douthat's take on the Middle East is that he prefers his own conservative Catholic form of authoritarianism over the Saudi variety. From our treatment of women, the attacks on abortion rights, the castigation of gays and lesbians, to the egregious income inequality that supports oligarchs to the exclusion of the poor and middle class, we seem to differ from the Saudis only by degree.
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Comparing our democratic republic to an absolute tyranny? "…, we seem to differ from the Saudi's only by degree. "
That is absurd hyperbole - not worthy of intelligent discussion.
Read a little bit about Saudi Arabia. Our nation is not perfect, but they are worlds apart - on every substantive level -
That is absurd hyperbole - not worthy of intelligent discussion.
Read a little bit about Saudi Arabia. Our nation is not perfect, but they are worlds apart - on every substantive level -
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If you believe that women's freedoms, religious tolerance, and human rights are equivalent between Saudi Arabia and the Republican party, you are sadly misinformed. Any review of the facts disproves your statement entirely.
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I enjoy driving my car. I remain unconvinced.
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