In my very prosperous county in California, we've been experiencing an outbreak of whooping cough which originated in a group of unvaccinated children at a particular school. Last week, a 25-day-old infant died of the disease. One of the great tragedies of my grandparents' lives was when their young daughter died of whooping cough back in the 1920's. I can't believe that we're going through this again and all due to the stupidity and selfishness of a group of irresponsible parents.
35
Phil, these people who are so very affluent and incredibly foolish have been shielded from that reality and believe that their DNA (and money) will somehow someway protect them and theirs. They have been distanted from the past evidently or told that it doesn't apply to them...in a word narcissists..and now their children and others will pay and pay and pay.
8
I had most childhood illnesses except the mumps. My mother always thought that me having regular measles, then German measles in succession really damaged my eyesight. I had chicken pox and both measles prior to a vaccine becoming available. Supposedly, I had immunity against those illnesses I already had, but I know someone who had measles as a child, then again as an adult, leaving them with a serious autoimmune illness.
Today I went for a radiologic scan. Before I could even step foot past the hospital door, I was given the 3rd degree about having a flu shot this year. Yes, I do get one every year, but I know some adults who choose not to do so, some because they had serious reactions to the vaccine in the past. Do they seriously think everyone will answer truthfully? If so, they are not living in reality. If you choose or simply cannot get a vaccine for health reasons, should you be banned from certain medical or other settings? And what happens if, despite getting a flu shot this year, you still get some version of the flu? Given the fact that this year's vacccine is considerably not quite as effective, where does that figure into the equation?
Today I went for a radiologic scan. Before I could even step foot past the hospital door, I was given the 3rd degree about having a flu shot this year. Yes, I do get one every year, but I know some adults who choose not to do so, some because they had serious reactions to the vaccine in the past. Do they seriously think everyone will answer truthfully? If so, they are not living in reality. If you choose or simply cannot get a vaccine for health reasons, should you be banned from certain medical or other settings? And what happens if, despite getting a flu shot this year, you still get some version of the flu? Given the fact that this year's vacccine is considerably not quite as effective, where does that figure into the equation?
Yes you should be banned. It is not about you. It is about the rest of us too.
14
People should not be forced to vaccinate themselves or their children, but vaccinated children and others should not be forced to attend school or be in contact with these unvaccinated people unknowingly in public. Perhaps such people should form their own communities as the Amish do. The only reason that unvaccinated people have any protection is because enough other people are responsible enough to be vaccinated. Get vaccinated, or form your own colony, you have no right to put others at risk for what are paranoid, ill informed superstitions.
22
Very revealing papers on the Measles from one of the county's most prominent Pro-Vaccine researchers:
Dr. Gregory Poland, one of the world’s most admired, most advanced thinkers in the field of vaccinology.
The measles vaccine has failed, he explained two years ago in a prescient paper, “The re-emergence of measles in developed countries.” In that paper, he warned that due to factors that most haven’t noticed, measles has come back to be a serious public health threat. Poland sees the need for a major rethink, after concluding that the current measles vaccine is unlikely to ever live up to the job expected of it: “outbreaks are occurring even in highly developed countries where vaccine access, public health infrastructure, and health literacy are not significant issues. This is unexpected and a worrisome harbinger — measles outbreaks are occurring where they are least expected,” he wrote in his 2012 paper, listing the “surprising numbers of cases occurring in persons who previously received one or even two documented doses of measles-containing vaccine.” During the 1989-1991 U.S. outbreaks, 20% to 40% of those affected had received one to two doses. In a 2011 outbreak in Canada, “over 50% of the 98 individuals had received two doses of measles vaccine.”
Paper: The Re-Emergence of Measles in Developed Countries: Time to Develop the Next-Generation Measles Vaccines? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih (dot) gov/pmc/articles/PMC3905323/
Dr. Gregory Poland, one of the world’s most admired, most advanced thinkers in the field of vaccinology.
The measles vaccine has failed, he explained two years ago in a prescient paper, “The re-emergence of measles in developed countries.” In that paper, he warned that due to factors that most haven’t noticed, measles has come back to be a serious public health threat. Poland sees the need for a major rethink, after concluding that the current measles vaccine is unlikely to ever live up to the job expected of it: “outbreaks are occurring even in highly developed countries where vaccine access, public health infrastructure, and health literacy are not significant issues. This is unexpected and a worrisome harbinger — measles outbreaks are occurring where they are least expected,” he wrote in his 2012 paper, listing the “surprising numbers of cases occurring in persons who previously received one or even two documented doses of measles-containing vaccine.” During the 1989-1991 U.S. outbreaks, 20% to 40% of those affected had received one to two doses. In a 2011 outbreak in Canada, “over 50% of the 98 individuals had received two doses of measles vaccine.”
Paper: The Re-Emergence of Measles in Developed Countries: Time to Develop the Next-Generation Measles Vaccines? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih (dot) gov/pmc/articles/PMC3905323/
2
If you do not wish to vaccinate, I do not wish your children to infect mine in public schools. Hope you're into home schooling.
15
How much of the anti - vaccine movement is based on right wing hatred of govt?
7
Unvaccinated children -- and adults -- should be banned from public places. If you want to be a hazard to society, you stay in your house until you change your mind.
11
Most of the peolple who have caught measles - have been VACCINATED!!!
2
Many of those were failed by the parents...yes their parents...in making sure they were given the series. and yes for some it is not enough, which is why we as a society, and not a band of affluent helicopter narcissists, have figured out we need to vaccinate as many as we can to protect them and the other vulnerable. and I didn't even us caps.
7
The people who are most against vaccination are all set to have their children get immunity by actually HAVING the disease.
Sounds like poetic justice to me. On the other hand, it could be considered child abuse.
Sounds like poetic justice to me. On the other hand, it could be considered child abuse.
12
The vet for my dog said we should spread out vaccines to minimize risk yet we lump three or more together to save pennies per dose on children. Our blind devotion to vaccines is reminiscent of the idea that calories alone are what make us gain weight. This a huge over simplification of a very complex process. When i hear of employees of the CDC not vaccinating their children i get very cynical.
ps. I had a friend killed by a flue shot. When we can recover from having 33 countries with healthier citizens than ours I will begin to listen to these people.
ps. I had a friend killed by a flue shot. When we can recover from having 33 countries with healthier citizens than ours I will begin to listen to these people.
5
I'm sorry, but this sounds like more foolish fear-mongering. Vaccines ARE spread out over several years. Look at any vaccination record. I have little patience for people who perpetuate half-truths, or conflate one issue with another. I have no opinion about your dog, but people should be vaccinated, certainly if they live in communities.
If any of these anti-vaccine parents lose a child to a preventable disease, I wonder if they'll find a way to blame others for their own illogical decision to withhold vaccinations. What a shame.
If any of these anti-vaccine parents lose a child to a preventable disease, I wonder if they'll find a way to blame others for their own illogical decision to withhold vaccinations. What a shame.
13
Stop allowing unvaccinated kids on public school grounds or in any public facility, now. People who do not vaccinate their kids are dangerous and idiotic and grew up in a generation almost free of infectious disease, so they have no idea of the danger. If they want to return to the 19th century than let them but not at the cost of sane people's health or tax dollars. Make vaccination mandatory in all schools in all 50 states asap.
40
I couldn't agree more. I remember having all these diseases. I remember polio outbreaks before the vaccine for it was developed. There is no excuse for these people who don't vaccinate their kids and then turn them loose on the public when they are sick.
6
Measles is unusual: much more easily transmitted than most contagious diseases--you don't even have to be close. Transmission is airborne, not by droplets; it travels with air currents.
There are validated, confirmed reports of measles being spread by someone who was half the length of a football field away. (Diseases spread by droplets are generally not contagious past about 3 feet.) In addition, the rate of infection for those that come in contact with it is unusually high (I have no stats for the latter at hand; see CDC.gov)
So having just one person with measles in a crowd, (or a store, or a school...) makes the risk of transmission quite high for anyone around who was not fully immunized.
NPR reports on a very recent California study showing that "Parents Who Shun Vaccines Tend To Cluster, Boosting Children's Risk". http://n.pr/1J8Qj6b Regardless of state-wide ratios, if in a particular zip code 20% of kids are not immunized (true in a number of places), you have a high probability of a lot of kids getting infected. But they don't just hang out together. And it only takes one infected child to spread it to many others they pass by-- their particular library, school, bus, medical waiting room... (BTW, it's not just California-- there are many such pockets around the US.)
I worked in an NYC pediatric hospital during a measles epidemic. Almost daily, there would be a heart-rending, piercing wail that made everyone shudder: another mother, her child dead from measles
There are validated, confirmed reports of measles being spread by someone who was half the length of a football field away. (Diseases spread by droplets are generally not contagious past about 3 feet.) In addition, the rate of infection for those that come in contact with it is unusually high (I have no stats for the latter at hand; see CDC.gov)
So having just one person with measles in a crowd, (or a store, or a school...) makes the risk of transmission quite high for anyone around who was not fully immunized.
NPR reports on a very recent California study showing that "Parents Who Shun Vaccines Tend To Cluster, Boosting Children's Risk". http://n.pr/1J8Qj6b Regardless of state-wide ratios, if in a particular zip code 20% of kids are not immunized (true in a number of places), you have a high probability of a lot of kids getting infected. But they don't just hang out together. And it only takes one infected child to spread it to many others they pass by-- their particular library, school, bus, medical waiting room... (BTW, it's not just California-- there are many such pockets around the US.)
I worked in an NYC pediatric hospital during a measles epidemic. Almost daily, there would be a heart-rending, piercing wail that made everyone shudder: another mother, her child dead from measles
36
99% of medical professionals and infectious disease experts recommend vaccines as a safe and effective way to prevent diseases. 1% disagree. Where is the 'debate' ?
The only ones who are 'heated' up about it are the anti-vaccine characters who make money selling books and services on their websites under the guise of providing choices.
The NVIC is not a credible or primary source for medical or health information. Juxtaposing world renowned experts such as Dr. Cherry, and other infectious disease specialists, epidemiologists and expert physicians against a parent run anti-vax organization and a local pediatrician who admits he doesn't understand the science? Ridiculous.
The public needs serious information and a call to action, not a weak attempt at balanced reporting. There is no debate.
The only ones who are 'heated' up about it are the anti-vaccine characters who make money selling books and services on their websites under the guise of providing choices.
The NVIC is not a credible or primary source for medical or health information. Juxtaposing world renowned experts such as Dr. Cherry, and other infectious disease specialists, epidemiologists and expert physicians against a parent run anti-vax organization and a local pediatrician who admits he doesn't understand the science? Ridiculous.
The public needs serious information and a call to action, not a weak attempt at balanced reporting. There is no debate.
52
"DUMB" are We The Sheeple.
"In the past three flu seasons, the CDC has claimed the flu vaccine's overall effectiveness clocked in at between 47 and 62 percent3 while some experts have measured it at 0 to 7 percent.
Other studies suggest that when children get a flu shot every year it can interfere with healthy immune responses and make them more likely to get influenza in certain flu seasons." ~Barbara Loe Fisher~
not to mention, THOSE children vaccinated tend to be the infected ones.
"In the past three flu seasons, the CDC has claimed the flu vaccine's overall effectiveness clocked in at between 47 and 62 percent3 while some experts have measured it at 0 to 7 percent.
Other studies suggest that when children get a flu shot every year it can interfere with healthy immune responses and make them more likely to get influenza in certain flu seasons." ~Barbara Loe Fisher~
not to mention, THOSE children vaccinated tend to be the infected ones.
2
Flu & measles are not the same.
The above reasoning applied to measles immunization is a poor comparison.
And "THOSE" children vaccinated help to prevent measles epidemics and possible severe outcomes, the worst being death.
Other serious effects include ear infections, pneumonia, fits or convulsions, croup, inflammation of the brain (encephalitis), which could result in hospitalisation. A late complication of measles is subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE), which causes progressive brain damage and nearly always results in death. The risk of these in a child who is up to date with their immunizations is very rare. 9 of 100 children with measles develop pneumonia. As an RN who has talked on an triage and advice line for many years, just because someone has not seen one of these serious consequences, does not mean that it doesn't happen. We are placing our children, our elders and our sick at a much greater risk by not being vaccinated against childhood diseases which are preventable.
The above reasoning applied to measles immunization is a poor comparison.
And "THOSE" children vaccinated help to prevent measles epidemics and possible severe outcomes, the worst being death.
Other serious effects include ear infections, pneumonia, fits or convulsions, croup, inflammation of the brain (encephalitis), which could result in hospitalisation. A late complication of measles is subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE), which causes progressive brain damage and nearly always results in death. The risk of these in a child who is up to date with their immunizations is very rare. 9 of 100 children with measles develop pneumonia. As an RN who has talked on an triage and advice line for many years, just because someone has not seen one of these serious consequences, does not mean that it doesn't happen. We are placing our children, our elders and our sick at a much greater risk by not being vaccinated against childhood diseases which are preventable.
37
I had almost every childhood disease. There were no vaccines. I had whooping cough so severe my grandmother had our parish priest come over and give me Extreme Unction--"Last Rites." Grandma, a tough Polish lady, was my caregiver for 2 weeks. Even my parents weren't allowed to visit.
I had chicken pox in my 30s & almost went mad. I was fortunate I had a nurse friend who gave me pointers (hydrogen peroxide applied to pustules eased itching better than calamine!) I would not wish either hell on anyone. That includes measles, "German measles," diphtheria, etc., etc.
I remember vividly the first Salk Polio vaccine. Everyone was marched to the gym, boys then girls (Catholic school!) vaccinated w/what seemed like foot-long needles. The nuns were vaccinated in their convent. Even the priests were vaccinated.
I was grateful. My Aunt Hilde spent >15 years of her life in an iron lung in a nursing home due paralysis of polio. I was always initially apprehensive when I visited even later in life because of the whooshing of the iron lung. I did understand she was still Tante Hilde, wit, thick German accent & all!
NO child should ever have to go through this. No parent should subject their child to such horrors. If you don't get your child vaccinated you should be criminally charged w/felony child neglect, be incarcerated & never see your child again.
I had chicken pox in my 30s & almost went mad. I was fortunate I had a nurse friend who gave me pointers (hydrogen peroxide applied to pustules eased itching better than calamine!) I would not wish either hell on anyone. That includes measles, "German measles," diphtheria, etc., etc.
I remember vividly the first Salk Polio vaccine. Everyone was marched to the gym, boys then girls (Catholic school!) vaccinated w/what seemed like foot-long needles. The nuns were vaccinated in their convent. Even the priests were vaccinated.
I was grateful. My Aunt Hilde spent >15 years of her life in an iron lung in a nursing home due paralysis of polio. I was always initially apprehensive when I visited even later in life because of the whooshing of the iron lung. I did understand she was still Tante Hilde, wit, thick German accent & all!
NO child should ever have to go through this. No parent should subject their child to such horrors. If you don't get your child vaccinated you should be criminally charged w/felony child neglect, be incarcerated & never see your child again.
44
But are the vaccines really safe? I know the standard response is of course they are. They wouldn't be widely used if they weren't. But every medicine that's been recalled in the last 50 years was initially deemed "safe". Some of those "safe' drugs eventually resulted in tens of thousands of deaths.
Gulf war syndrome (said by some to be a reaction to the large amounts of vaccines given at one time) was said to be psychosomatic, of course until recently when the record of real biochemical evidence showed otherwise.
So my question is simple, does the evidence show that vaccines really prevent the disease? Does the scientific evidence show that co-agents used to carry the vaccines such as mercury and aluminum are safe? Will those heavy metals in accumulation with other day to day exposures increase the likelihood of harmful effects?
Gulf war syndrome (said by some to be a reaction to the large amounts of vaccines given at one time) was said to be psychosomatic, of course until recently when the record of real biochemical evidence showed otherwise.
So my question is simple, does the evidence show that vaccines really prevent the disease? Does the scientific evidence show that co-agents used to carry the vaccines such as mercury and aluminum are safe? Will those heavy metals in accumulation with other day to day exposures increase the likelihood of harmful effects?
7
You're not serious, I hope. Is measles safe?
14
Yes, Victor. They are safe.
13
There is actual and well studied risk associated with vaccination, just like there is actual and well studied risk associated with driving while texting or eating lots of bacon. The risks are very small when compared to the risk of infectious disease. The "facts" you cite are old and are being used to erode confidence in modern medicine. The data regarding vaccination benefits and risks comes not just from the government and big pharma, it comes from research done by independent scientists and health organizations around the world. I shudder to think that all of the good work done to prevent childhood diseases around the world could fall prey to fear mongering. Surely we are better than this.
10
Really? Parents in California can opt out of vaccination for their children for religious reasons? (Personal belief) This is a public health issue and nothing else. When people give more credence to celebrities like Jenny McCarthy than to medical professionals they are not just pitifully dumb, they are putting everyone at risk in the short or long term. Unbelivable!
19
I think it's a great idea to block unvaccinated children from school. I'm sure opposition to sensible ideas like vaccination is not the only thing these kids have contracted from their parents, and we should not have to risk infesting our children with other silly ideas. Who knows what other mishigas they've learned from Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin? After all, this IS California.
10
Yes, dear vaccination skeptics, please keep those unvaccinated kids out of public schools.
Most of us "sheeple" think that diseases such as measles and polio are basically a thing of the past - due to vaccinations. Congratulations if you are one of the enlightened people who think that is a lie, and 99% of the information out there is planted as part of a government conspiracy (to achieve what - sell vaccines for $8 a pop?).
Good for you, you have it all figured out. But then you should definitely not trust that bad, bad government with your children's education, right?
Most of us "sheeple" think that diseases such as measles and polio are basically a thing of the past - due to vaccinations. Congratulations if you are one of the enlightened people who think that is a lie, and 99% of the information out there is planted as part of a government conspiracy (to achieve what - sell vaccines for $8 a pop?).
Good for you, you have it all figured out. But then you should definitely not trust that bad, bad government with your children's education, right?
4
The Times should look into the outbreak of Chicken Pox in Ashland, Oregon where about 3 dozen kids have contracted the disease.... check out today's Oregonian for details.. Ashland schools only have about a 75% vaccination rate, too low to prevent disease spread.. Ashland is renowned to be a New Age haven... it doesn't surprise me so many aren't vaccinating.
10
I believe there is overwhelming data showing that the benefit of vaccination greatly outweighs any cost. But no one has ever changed because others denigrated their intelligence or dismissed their concerns. So I acknowledge that parents who don't vaccinate do it with good intentions, are worried about harming their children, and think they’ve made the right choice.
I propose we respectfully talk about risk (i.e., potential harm) vs benefit of vaccination. All medical decisions should be considered in terms of potential downside vs potential benefit; few things in life have no potential downside.
Per this article,there were 400-500 DEATHS yearly from measles in the US before widespread vaccination in 1963. There were 3 million to 4 million cases annually, often resulting in deafness, blindness, brain damage etc. The US population is now 1.7 times greater than in 1962.
So, assuming the same infection rate, that would be 680- 850 DEAD CHILDREN-- each year-- as the possible cost of not vaccinating against measles. Plus 5.1 million- 6.8 million children hospitalized, with many irreversible cases of neurological damage, including deafness and blindness.
I accept that anti-vaccinators believe there might be harm from vaccinations. I ask anyone who believes this to ask themselves whether the risk they perceive equals or outweighs the historical FACT of so many dead children each year.
Thank you for listening.
I propose we respectfully talk about risk (i.e., potential harm) vs benefit of vaccination. All medical decisions should be considered in terms of potential downside vs potential benefit; few things in life have no potential downside.
Per this article,there were 400-500 DEATHS yearly from measles in the US before widespread vaccination in 1963. There were 3 million to 4 million cases annually, often resulting in deafness, blindness, brain damage etc. The US population is now 1.7 times greater than in 1962.
So, assuming the same infection rate, that would be 680- 850 DEAD CHILDREN-- each year-- as the possible cost of not vaccinating against measles. Plus 5.1 million- 6.8 million children hospitalized, with many irreversible cases of neurological damage, including deafness and blindness.
I accept that anti-vaccinators believe there might be harm from vaccinations. I ask anyone who believes this to ask themselves whether the risk they perceive equals or outweighs the historical FACT of so many dead children each year.
Thank you for listening.
19
Your understanding that those with an objection to vaccinations also love their children and that insulting and marginalizing them is unlikely going to be the strategy to change them. As a midwife who is asked my opinion, I find that presenting facts with respect to the concerns of new parents encourages them to make the best decision for their baby.
2
Facts do not change minds, Susan, when you are dealing with emotion based nonscience and refuted, debunked nonsense. and these people are endangering others. Health care professionals have a responsibility to think of that too. THese loving parents will be devasted watching their child suffer the ravages of preventable diseases, but they will never ever see the suffering of others.
6
I have one curious reaction to the rhetoric of the anti-immunizers - over the years, I myself have pretty often been a doubter of government and industry claims - so I feel sort of funny saying "If it's about the Gulf of Tonkin, or Weapons of Mass Destruction, or free trade pacts, don't believe a word they say! But, if it's about vaccinations, yes, trust them, or be a crazed Luddite."
On the other hand, while I might "feel funny" about it, I think I can really end up saying exactly that, and understanding why I say it.
The biggest part is, in the case of the Bush WMD lies for instance, it wasn't just a knee-jerk doubt of everything he said - I've always thought that the familiar "all politicians lie" attitude is just as lazy as trusting them automatically. It was that there were significant sources pointing out the weakness of his so-called evidence, and the serious reasons to believe he was lying.
In the case of vaccinations, these aren't some miracle drugs suddenly trumpeted by the corporations, coming out of nowhere - there is a history of medicine, and the idea of vaccination comes out of it in a natural way. If it was just one ad on TV, I wouldn't believe it for a minute - if it was some fad like no-wheat, or Ritalin, I would have really grave doubts.
I guess the deniers see their TV celebrities as trustworthy authorities, while I see the non-corporate branches of the medical field that way. Over the next years we will see more about how un-vaccinated kids fare.
On the other hand, while I might "feel funny" about it, I think I can really end up saying exactly that, and understanding why I say it.
The biggest part is, in the case of the Bush WMD lies for instance, it wasn't just a knee-jerk doubt of everything he said - I've always thought that the familiar "all politicians lie" attitude is just as lazy as trusting them automatically. It was that there were significant sources pointing out the weakness of his so-called evidence, and the serious reasons to believe he was lying.
In the case of vaccinations, these aren't some miracle drugs suddenly trumpeted by the corporations, coming out of nowhere - there is a history of medicine, and the idea of vaccination comes out of it in a natural way. If it was just one ad on TV, I wouldn't believe it for a minute - if it was some fad like no-wheat, or Ritalin, I would have really grave doubts.
I guess the deniers see their TV celebrities as trustworthy authorities, while I see the non-corporate branches of the medical field that way. Over the next years we will see more about how un-vaccinated kids fare.
7
My family and I visited Disneyland in 2013 after being seduced by advertising for "the happiest place on earth." We did not get measles, but our expensive vacation was very disappointing. The park was so oversold that the wait for all popular rides was over an hour. Less popular rides were poorly maintained and not much fun. That the current measles outbreak occurred there does not surprise me given the gross overcrowding and deferred maintenance. I encourage families to look elsewhere for a good time together.
5
That is not actually the takeaway lesson but does in fact underscore the problem.
1
As medical director for maternal and child health for Orange County I can attest to the uniquely challenging problem that child vaccine delay and refusal poses to public health. Some infectious disease experts have offered that it will take more severe outbreaks and child deaths to change parental anti-vaccine sentiments. As a society we need to ask who is responsible for the consequences and costs of individual bad decisions based on misinformation and misplaced fears.
30
Every health provider should be prepared to address vaccine concerns using credible, science-based, information. Unfortunately, on the spectrum of vaccine acceptance and refusal, those who refuse vaccines tend to be highly educated and are less likely to change their views. It does not help that some physicians pander to and profit from vaccine fears by openly expressing their own magical thinking about the safety and timing of childhood vaccines. With any other medical issue, if individuals were espousing views that had no evidence to support them, they would be roundly labeled as frauds for perpetrating hoaxes.
States that currently allow personal belief exemption for childhood vaccinations should work to eliminate the option. Appropriate disincentives for opting out of vaccination should be considered. Finally, media outlets should no longer provide a forum for vaccine heretics to spread their misinformation. This open microphone has the potential to influence even more parents to make ill-informed decisions.
States that currently allow personal belief exemption for childhood vaccinations should work to eliminate the option. Appropriate disincentives for opting out of vaccination should be considered. Finally, media outlets should no longer provide a forum for vaccine heretics to spread their misinformation. This open microphone has the potential to influence even more parents to make ill-informed decisions.
19
Reading this article I can't help but think of my grandparents and the stories I heard growing up of young siblings or children dying from diseases that are now extinct. They would be truly shocked to hear we are going backwards in the 21st century without any proof vaccines are harmful.
20
Indeed. My grandmother lost 5 siblings to various childhood diseases that I was vaccinated against. My mother knew people who got polio and lived in iron lungs for the rest of their lives. Whatever the sins of modern medicine, these people who imagine the world would be a better place without vaccines are INSANE. I'm really very afraid it's going to take a significant number of children dying or being permanently harmed by these diseases to reverse this idiotic trend.
7
Dr. Gordon,
Studies are proof. Causation is proof. Studies have demonstrated that there is no link between autism and vaccines. Studies have demonstrated that there is no increase in neurological ailments and vaccines. Studies have also demonstrated that measles increases the risk of secondary infections and death.
Anecdotes on the other hand are stories. I have an anecdote for you. I have a lucky jacket that I believe protects me from being attacked by wild animals because I haven't been attacked by a wild animal when I'm wearing it. Should I wander around the woods while wearing it during mating season or early spring when animals come out of hibernation? Should I try to pet the cute bear cub I see at Yellowstone because my jacket will protect me?
I didn't think so.
Studies are proof. Causation is proof. Studies have demonstrated that there is no link between autism and vaccines. Studies have demonstrated that there is no increase in neurological ailments and vaccines. Studies have also demonstrated that measles increases the risk of secondary infections and death.
Anecdotes on the other hand are stories. I have an anecdote for you. I have a lucky jacket that I believe protects me from being attacked by wild animals because I haven't been attacked by a wild animal when I'm wearing it. Should I wander around the woods while wearing it during mating season or early spring when animals come out of hibernation? Should I try to pet the cute bear cub I see at Yellowstone because my jacket will protect me?
I didn't think so.
39
I stopped eating meat when I was 13, and my breasts grew afterwards! Clearly becoming vegetarian makes your breasts grow bigger. I know another girl it happened to as well! I can prove it with my anecdotes. My anecdote is every bit as valid as Dr. Gordon's. May I please be quoted in the New York Times? I have a doctoral degree, too.
30
Cancer clearly is caused by clothing, I know for a fact that everyone who has ever had cnacer, has worn clothers. I am choosing to go naked in case its not too late. However I am elderly and likely to arrested for disturbing the peace.
4
This anti-vaccine movement is just another in a society that has become me-centric. How utterly selfish to put others at risk because of your refusal to educate yourself. The earth is flat. There's no such thing as global warming. Neil Armstrong never walked on the moon. President Obama was born in Kenya. People are more stupid today than ever; I shudder over this truth.
32
While I think it is important to be mindful and respectful of religion, I question the safety in putting health policy to the ballot. People do many stupid things for many stupid reasons. When our actions have little or no consequences on others, that's fine, but when we are talking about closed quarters, whether that be hospitals, schools or nursing homes, parameters should be set and adhered to.
8
Quarantine the un-vaccinated and their families until the disease has run its course. Then pull their citizenship and expel them. Jail those who subsequently refuse vaccination, and expel them upon release.
5
there is a story in today's Times about Fr. Serra a priest from Spain who converted native americans to catholicism during the 16th Century.. in the NY Times story it is told that natives were dying of diseases brought to them by the European conquerors , one which they died amass was from Measles.. so yes, Measles is dangerous and deadly especially to older adults and younger children- so get vaccinated if you haven't already or are naturally immune to it.
6
Kudos to Dr. Eric G. Handler and other Orange County health officials for sending unvaccinated children home from schools. It may be a bit dramatic at this point, but most of those "pretty dumb people out there" are some of the best educated in the country, so they understand the value of education and this may persuade them to do the right thing. Antl-vaccination types are like "flat-earthers" in that they "believe" in something that has been clearly proven not to be true by science. Sadly, science has been given a bad name by the right-wing yahoos who run this country; it's time to turn that around before they drag us back to the 19th century. Health officials have the right to protect the public, and keeping the unvaccinated out of schools is a step in the right direction, both for "the herd" and for science.
16
It's the left-wing 'yahoos' (to borrow your term) who give a bad name to the science of vaccines, as evidenced by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and his unscientific, untrue connection of vaccines to autism. Google it; the locations of many of the breakouts of what medical people used to call "usual diseases of childhood" are university towns, definitely majority-Liberal.
You could add to that list of yahoos Steve Jobs (Apple, just in case you don't recall), who was advised to have surgery for cancer of the pancreas. He was presented with information that surgery and chemotherapy could give him, if not a cure, many more years of life. He chose to not have the treatments. He had a right to make the choice, the choice that cost him years of life.
You could add to that list of yahoos Steve Jobs (Apple, just in case you don't recall), who was advised to have surgery for cancer of the pancreas. He was presented with information that surgery and chemotherapy could give him, if not a cure, many more years of life. He chose to not have the treatments. He had a right to make the choice, the choice that cost him years of life.
5
Not vaccinating your children seems like the immunological equivalent of driving drunk. Maybe you have the right to make a "parental choice" to risk your own kid's life by 1) not immunizing, or 2) driving drunk with the kid in the car, but you don't have the right to risk my kid's life by 1) not immunizing, or 2) driving drunk when I've got my kid in the car. We don't allow drunk driving because of the risk it poses to others. We should not allow immunization refusals (unless there's a real medical reason, such as a severe allergy) because someone once read, like, a blog post, and stuff, and just, you know, thinks it's like, um, a bad idea and, also, they once heard from someone that, like, their kid caught the brain fever and ebola from, um, the MMR and DTaP.
59
If you took the time to do some reading on governmental sites (not silly, opinionated, but real scientific info) about the risk vaccines may pose on people, it just might make you second guess your posting and not ridicule people for choosing not to vaccinate.
1
Gee whiz, Gov Brown allows a religious exemption in California. I thought Jerry was smarter than that.
Let's see, measles decimated the Hawaiian population because it was a disease the population had no experience with, i.e. no herd immunity. The areas of high non-vaccination in California include the areas with highly educated people, such as Marin County. But obviously no education about infectious disease.
Stories about how vaccines began, how they conquered many diseases, and how microbes were discovered make wonderful lessons for children.
Let's see, measles decimated the Hawaiian population because it was a disease the population had no experience with, i.e. no herd immunity. The areas of high non-vaccination in California include the areas with highly educated people, such as Marin County. But obviously no education about infectious disease.
Stories about how vaccines began, how they conquered many diseases, and how microbes were discovered make wonderful lessons for children.
10
This high education you speak of: Education does not always equal intelligence.
5
At least those anti-vaccine fanatics will be useful for end-of-life planning.
I've told my family if I get Alzheimer's that I don't want to have flu or pneumonia shots, and to be sure to invite those folks over to give me hugs and kisses during flu season!
I've told my family if I get Alzheimer's that I don't want to have flu or pneumonia shots, and to be sure to invite those folks over to give me hugs and kisses during flu season!
1
What is needed is a breakdown of the number of cases, the number of "under immunized, immunized, and un immunized" people who have contracted the measles to make the story more factual. It says the majority (which could be 51%) are underimmunized, what about the other 49%?
Facts do not change minds of those who have signed on to nonfacts and pseudoscience.
Lost a friend to measles in high school. Others had long term effects from it.
Too bad so many parents nowadays think this is something like chicken pox or the flu.
Would have been thrilled if we'd had vaccinations back then and if everyone had been protected.
Too bad so many parents nowadays think this is something like chicken pox or the flu.
Would have been thrilled if we'd had vaccinations back then and if everyone had been protected.
9
Parents who refuse to vaccinate their children should be arrested for child abuse! Frankly, that doesn't go far enough as their refusal to acknowledge scientific fact puts the larger community at risk, not just their own innocent children.
This is the 21st century in a nation that prides itself as some kind of advanced world leader; why on earth does our society continue to move farther and farther away from scientific evidence?!
Over and over again we see influential members of our society profess doubt about the validity of concepts that are long established by scientific consensus. Anti-evolutionism crops up on the front page every few years. Doubt about anthropogenic climate change is the most globally threatening of these trends. But the anti-vaccine movement is literally and tangibly killing people right now! Wake up, doubters! You are killing people!
This is the 21st century in a nation that prides itself as some kind of advanced world leader; why on earth does our society continue to move farther and farther away from scientific evidence?!
Over and over again we see influential members of our society profess doubt about the validity of concepts that are long established by scientific consensus. Anti-evolutionism crops up on the front page every few years. Doubt about anthropogenic climate change is the most globally threatening of these trends. But the anti-vaccine movement is literally and tangibly killing people right now! Wake up, doubters! You are killing people!
9
“I do know this: Fifty-seven cases of measles coming out of Disneyland in a country with a population of 317 million people is not a lot of cases."
One child is too many if it is yours and they develop encephalitis. My younger brother born in 1955 before the advent of MMR, never recovered and spent his life in Special Education and Adult Assisted Living. Way to go on diminishing the long term effects on one person's life as being 'just a minor statistic". You should be ashamed of yourself Jane Seward. And you call yourself a doctor? What happened to "do no harm"?
One child is too many if it is yours and they develop encephalitis. My younger brother born in 1955 before the advent of MMR, never recovered and spent his life in Special Education and Adult Assisted Living. Way to go on diminishing the long term effects on one person's life as being 'just a minor statistic". You should be ashamed of yourself Jane Seward. And you call yourself a doctor? What happened to "do no harm"?
16
It's interesting to note that Barbara Loe Fisher of the fabulously-misnamed "National Vaccine Information Center" likely adopted her extreme anti-vaccine position due to a misunderstanding.
Fisher has claimed that her son reacted within hours of receipt of a DPT vaccine with seizures and developed mental retardation and a continuing seizure disorder. Many children with such case histories have been examined in numerous studies by independent groups of researchers on several continents; their alleged "vaccine injuries" turned out to be due to pre-existing mutations rather than to vaccination. That's been clear for years. The same thing happens to unvacccinated laboratory animals that carry such mutations.
See, for example:
--Wiznitzer M. Dravet syndrome and vaccination: when science prevails over speculation. Lancet Neurol. 2010 Jun;9(6):559-61.
--Reyes IS, Hsieh DT, Laux LC, Wilfong AA. Alleged Cases of Vaccine Encephalopathy Rediagnosed Years Later as Dravet Syndrome. Pediatrics. 2011 Aug 15.
--Berkovic SF et al. De-novo mutations of the sodium channel gene SCN1A in alleged vaccine encephalopathy: a retrospective study. Lancet Neurol. 2006 Jun;5(6):488-92.
Fisher has claimed that her son reacted within hours of receipt of a DPT vaccine with seizures and developed mental retardation and a continuing seizure disorder. Many children with such case histories have been examined in numerous studies by independent groups of researchers on several continents; their alleged "vaccine injuries" turned out to be due to pre-existing mutations rather than to vaccination. That's been clear for years. The same thing happens to unvacccinated laboratory animals that carry such mutations.
See, for example:
--Wiznitzer M. Dravet syndrome and vaccination: when science prevails over speculation. Lancet Neurol. 2010 Jun;9(6):559-61.
--Reyes IS, Hsieh DT, Laux LC, Wilfong AA. Alleged Cases of Vaccine Encephalopathy Rediagnosed Years Later as Dravet Syndrome. Pediatrics. 2011 Aug 15.
--Berkovic SF et al. De-novo mutations of the sodium channel gene SCN1A in alleged vaccine encephalopathy: a retrospective study. Lancet Neurol. 2006 Jun;5(6):488-92.
12
I have sympathy for any parent with a disabled child. But it does seem that quite a lot of these parents refuse to accept that their child wasn't perfect to begin with so they blame a vaccine. I guess that's just easier.
13
Once again a biased article in the New York Times has succeeded in stirring up the hysteria of the true believers in vaccination. There is no evidence that a low vaccination rate has anything to do with this measles outbreak. In fact, there is evidence that the vaccine can cause measles in individuals, especially, children, with impaired immune systems. See http://wp.me/pfSi7-2an.
On a personal note, I've never known any anit-vaxxer, including myself, who started out that way. They came to oppose vaccination on the basis of a dispassionate consideration of the evidence, something the NVIC is all about. Most vocal pro-vaxxers are something else altogether. They are certain, beyond all reach of evidence or reason, that vaccines are salvation from disease and anyone who disagrees is demon-possessed. I use religious language deliberately here because for them the issue is religious in the worst sense. The modern medical model is for them the way, the truth and the life. To me, our medical establishment is the modern priesthood, and blind belief in its efficacy and integrity is as irresponsible and destructive as any other form of fundamentalism.
For those who truly have open minds, an excellent counterweight to the medical orthodoxy is "Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History" by Suzanne Humphries, MD and Roman Bystrianyk.
On a personal note, I've never known any anit-vaxxer, including myself, who started out that way. They came to oppose vaccination on the basis of a dispassionate consideration of the evidence, something the NVIC is all about. Most vocal pro-vaxxers are something else altogether. They are certain, beyond all reach of evidence or reason, that vaccines are salvation from disease and anyone who disagrees is demon-possessed. I use religious language deliberately here because for them the issue is religious in the worst sense. The modern medical model is for them the way, the truth and the life. To me, our medical establishment is the modern priesthood, and blind belief in its efficacy and integrity is as irresponsible and destructive as any other form of fundamentalism.
For those who truly have open minds, an excellent counterweight to the medical orthodoxy is "Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History" by Suzanne Humphries, MD and Roman Bystrianyk.
4
Guess you are too young to have had to have a smallpox vaccination. Those of us who did wear the scar on our arm proudly. The requirement was stopped because the CDC found that the risk of harm from the variola virus was greater than the risk of getting smallpox. Measles in adults can be a very serious disease. And then, of course, some came down with polio before Salk made the first polio vaccines. Most likely you had that vaccine.
5
I'm almost 60 years old and I had the measles, chicken pox, and mumps. I had shingles as an adult. I also have hearing impairment which may have been caused by measles. Measles is a dangerous infection and anyone who get infected is at risk. You don't have the right to risk others.
15
James, the major difference between vaccines and religion is that vaccines have been shown to actually work.
16
I'm concerned that with the numerous 'contagions' we have eliminated in our country, how we are now exposing ourselves, in part, with our lax immigration policy. Please, this is not a rant on the illegal issues. But if we continue to allow people to enter without going through some type of enforced and controlled process we are increasing the likelihood of more of these diseases showing up.
4
The point is that vaccinations protect children, even from the people you are worried about.
Santa Monica pediatrician Dr. Jay Gordon's statement that he has no proof that the measles vaccine causes harm, but that he just has "anecdotal reports from parents who are convinced that their children were harmed by the vaccine," would seem to the crux of the issue here.
Anecdotal reports should never be the basis for making medical decisions when there is scientific evidence to the contrary. It is understandable that many lay people might make such a mistake, but unacceptable that a well-trained physician would.
Anecdotal reports should never be the basis for making medical decisions when there is scientific evidence to the contrary. It is understandable that many lay people might make such a mistake, but unacceptable that a well-trained physician would.
25
The article and the comments refer to children getting "sick." The uninformed picture a chid with spots and a little fever. They feel the 4-500 deaths are simply a coincidence. It is not. What is not reported is the number who will survive, but with life long disability from the more common sequelae: meningitis and pneumonia. Blindness, seizures, breathing difficulties, etc are the fate of too many children as the result of their parents' lack of knowledge, superstition, and egocentric belief systems.
38
Parents can be obtuse as they helicopter over the lives of their children. There is no credible evidence (anecdotal being useless) that the vaccine is a problem, whereas there is vast evidence that without the vaccine measles will spread readily. Send their children home and let their über-protective parents decide how to cope with it.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
10
Just another example of our 1% being selfish and "externalizing" millions in costs, and many deaths resulting from their recklessness and self superior egoism onto the 99%. Let's face it the real reason they don't want to get a vaccination is that it is inconvenient to spend a 1/2 hour getting a shot, and maybe their spoiled child will scream - so they think they can cheat "free ride" on the work that the lesser 99% do as part of what is supposed to be our community duty to keep our nation disease free. And of course you will not find them serving in the military or even paying their fair share of taxes. They are to good to grovel in reality with the rest of us.
10
being selfish but also being "Know it alls"... and falling for superstitious beliefs rumor and gossip , not medical and scientific evidence- these people probably believe the Earth is flat, dinosaurs lived 35,000 years ago, we never landed on the moon, and that humans aren't responsible for global warming.. and we are supposed to give exemptions to these "imbeciles"?
4
I think that there are a lot of reasons why parents don’t get their kids vaccinated and inconvenience is only one of them. All one has to do is to do a little digging on the Internet and one will find what is almost a subculture of anti-vaccinationists holding forth in their own little echo chamber. The same names keep coming up on different websites and they freely cross-reference each other. “Evidence” is cherry-picked. Reputable studies are referenced but claims are made that are not supported by the studies. Statements by recognized authorities are belittled because they are all part of a conspiracy to boost the profits of the drug companies. I believe this is partly a result of the rhetoric coming out of the halls of Congress where our leaders deflect any questions of a scientific nature by claiming they are not scientists.
6
"Fifty-seven cases of measles coming out of Disneyland in a country with a population of 317 million people is not a lot of cases." Barbara Loe Fisher
ALL disease outbreaks begin with one being and spreads from there. Ms Fisher, does your reasoning apply to ebola since there were only about four cases in the USA?
ALL disease outbreaks begin with one being and spreads from there. Ms Fisher, does your reasoning apply to ebola since there were only about four cases in the USA?
27
Barbara being a typical uninformed and in denial person uses these numbers to justify selfish, irresponsible and superstitious acts.
5
Another thing to consider is that viruses mutate when they are allowed to thrive. So if enough people choose to not vaccinate themselves and their children, they give measles and other diseases the opportunity to mutate, rendering the rest of us susceptible to getting sick. Mutation is why this year's flu vaccine is only about 40% effective--still better than nothing but not as protective as in previous years.
15
Dr. Gordon stated: "I have no proof that this vaccine causes harm. I just have anecdotal reports" to support his idea that "whatever risk there is — and I can’t prove a risk — is, I think, caused by the timing" of vaccination.
Actually, there is actual evidence regarding this question, and it emphatically refutes the anti-vaccine position that Gordon adopted in the absence of evidence.
The authors of a careful case-control study published earlier this month concluded, "There were no significant differences in MMR vaccination and thimerosal dosage between cases and controls at any age. [Uno Y et al. Early exposure to the combined measles-mumps-rubella vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines and risk of autism spectrum disorder. Vaccine. 2015 Jan 3.] Evidence trumps ignorance.
Actually, there is actual evidence regarding this question, and it emphatically refutes the anti-vaccine position that Gordon adopted in the absence of evidence.
The authors of a careful case-control study published earlier this month concluded, "There were no significant differences in MMR vaccination and thimerosal dosage between cases and controls at any age. [Uno Y et al. Early exposure to the combined measles-mumps-rubella vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines and risk of autism spectrum disorder. Vaccine. 2015 Jan 3.] Evidence trumps ignorance.
39
How Gordon became a doctor is a question i want answered before i die... the greatest mystery for all of human-kind.
2
I realize there are religions which avoid many modern medical practices. In general the members of these groups seem to"self-segregate" and not endanger members of the broader society by their choices. The article does not list or explain the basis for a "religious" exemption to vaccines. I would appreciate information to help me understand both the "religious and the personal belief" objections to vaccines. And I would appreciate the guidance given to public facilities used by those children not vaccinated for religious or personal belief reasons. In a society which recently approved overwhelmingly (in polling) horrific restrictions on personal liberty for those adults who cared for Ebola patients abroad or in Texas and NY, I wonder what will be suggested for children in public schools whose parents do not agree to have them vaccinated. Are we looking at more of Gov. Christie's parking lot tents?
4
In California, a section has been added to the bottom of the "proof of vaccination form" that allows parents, with very little thought or effort, to check off that they have a religious or personal belief objection. This was done in an effort (misguided in my opinion) to make the process more transparent for parents. Unless there is a direct threat from a disease outbreak, California public school districts are not permitted to deny access to students whose parents have completed the form. The number of religious exemptions has remained steady. It is the personal belief exemptions that are climbing rapidly. If there is a case diagnosed of a student who attended school while contagious, the school district can keep all non-vaccinated children, who cannot show proof of natural immunity, out of school until the risk passes. We cannot exclude out of an abundance of caution.
5
I don't see why this is a news story. People who don't get vaccinations get sick. These parents have the right to put their children at risk if they want. My kids are vaccinated, so they won't get sick. Your kids are not vaccinated, so they will get sick.
No skin off my nose.
No skin off my nose.
2
It's not that simple. Vaccinated people CAN get the disease. Herd immunity decreases that risk by reducing the likelihood of transmission. Unvaccinated people put you at risk.
18
It's not that simple. They put OTHER people at risk, not just themselves. Vaccines rely on herd immunity to be maximally effective, and when fewer people are vaccinated, the overall efficacy of the vaccine itself is diminished.
Nevermind people with compromised immune systems, the young, and the elderly, who are particularly vulnerable to these highly contagious diseases.
This isn't just about you and yours. Little is.
Nevermind people with compromised immune systems, the young, and the elderly, who are particularly vulnerable to these highly contagious diseases.
This isn't just about you and yours. Little is.
29
Neil, I only wish you were correct about your kids being 100 percent protected since theyve been vaccinated. Unfortunately some people remain vulnerable to infections *even though theyve been vaccinated*. So those people choosing not to vaccinate increase the risk for those not 100 percent covered, those too young to be vaccinated, those who are immuno-suppressed, etc......
17
People tend to have a great deal of difficulty assessing risk. A child is much, much more likely to be harmed in an auto accident than by a vaccine, but do the anti-vaxers also not drive their kids anywhere?
29
A lot of research shows that people discount risks associated with activities that they believe they control, like driving, and overstate the risks associated with activities they have no control over, like flying or vaccines.
7
Do the math. We're in a first world ecology. Lots of top notch medical care. There are 59 cases of a common childhood disease clustered in a city of 3.9 million. This disease posed a 1 in 10,000 threat of death in the 1960's. I've had measles as have many of my generation. When I went back to college in the 90's I had to submit to getting a measles series anyway because I couldn't document the case.
If you child is vaccinated and you believe in the vaccine your family would not be at risk. So there should be no issue with someone else declining the vaccine.
This article promotes living in fear and sensationalism.
If you child is vaccinated and you believe in the vaccine your family would not be at risk. So there should be no issue with someone else declining the vaccine.
This article promotes living in fear and sensationalism.
8
Your reasoning is false and incorrect. Due to actual medical reasons, some people cannot be vaccinated and thus rely on 'herd immunity' wherein they are protected by having the majority of people around them vaccinated. Anti-vaxxers who don't vaccinate due to religious or other non-scientific beliefs threaten these people who couldn't receive the vaccine even if they wanted to.
44
What about children too young to get vaccinated? Is it ok to place them at risk until they are old enough? Or children with serious illnesses (cancer is a big one ) who can't tolerate a vaccine? Why don't you do the math and read about the importance of herd immunity?
36
It should drive a certain amount of fear as this is a serious disease and for those babies under the vaccination age, this poses a grave threat. The risks of getting the vaccine unless you have a viable medical reason are tiny and we need to drive out this idiotic notion of vaccines causing autism. The original study was falsified and subsequent studies negated that idea altogether. Parents who do not vaccinate their children should keep their kids home and not risk exposing vulnerable populations. Better yet, they should get their kids vaccinated.
17
My 11 year old son is on the low-mid functioning end of the autism spectrum. I have never once considered not vaccinating him. He has never had a reaction to an immunization. He gets a flu shot every year. Any illness can turn into a series of complications and/or allergic reactions to medications for him. His expressive communication skills are weak and treating him is a guessing game. I cannot imagine what a horror it would be for my guy to contract measles or another preventable illness.
82
I consider 57 cases coming out of one location a lot!!! (For heaven's sake, this is not 57 scattered cases.) Any statistics on how measles spreads among the unvaccinated?
27
Up to 90% of susceptible persons [i.e., unvaccinated] who are exposed will become infected.
13
“I do know this: Fifty-seven cases of measles coming out of Disneyland in a country with a population of 317 million people is not a lot of cases. We should all take a deep breath and wait to see and get more information.”
I am no statistician, but wouldn't the appropriate comparison here be total visitors to Disneyland during the time period of the outbreaks, rather than the entire population of the country?
I am no statistician, but wouldn't the appropriate comparison here be total visitors to Disneyland during the time period of the outbreaks, rather than the entire population of the country?
54
The unvaccinated should not be allowed to attend public schools, should not be allowed to work with the public, and should not be allowed to go to Disneyland.
91
This is the concern I came in here to question. I wasn't allowed to attend school -- in the 1980s! -- until I'd been vaccinated as required. Why are schools relaxing their policies to normally not require this when they know full well that it puts lives in danger?
I'm expecting my first child this summer and it is making me increasingly angry to think that I may have to ask my local school officials why they are putting my child at risk, or anyone else's, if I find out that their normal policy is anything other than 100% vaccinations-required.
I know first hand the danger because I was born partly deaf due to congenital rubella syndrome shortly before the MMR vaccine became available. There is no way to repair the damage and, barring stem cell therapy becoming available, I will never have normal hearing.
I'm expecting my first child this summer and it is making me increasingly angry to think that I may have to ask my local school officials why they are putting my child at risk, or anyone else's, if I find out that their normal policy is anything other than 100% vaccinations-required.
I know first hand the danger because I was born partly deaf due to congenital rubella syndrome shortly before the MMR vaccine became available. There is no way to repair the damage and, barring stem cell therapy becoming available, I will never have normal hearing.
30
I completely agree. But the refusal of vaccination is now the latest fashion trend among the ill-informed. Vaccinations have saved countless lives, but there is a vocal faction that would put their own children, and everyone else's children, at risk because of conspiracy theories. I guess I'm lucky that I'm old enough to have already had mumps, measles, rubella, and chicken pox. But I take whatever vaccination I can find - pneumonia, influenza, shingles. Oh, and my son is on the autism spectrum - and it had absolutely nothing to do with vaccinations.
24
Why not? If they get sick they will only spread it to other unvaccinated kids. What's the problem?
The statement from Barbara Loe Fisher about this outbreak not being a big deal and we should just "all take a deep breath" makes my shudder. It testifies to a total and dangerous lack of perspective by her group and similar organisations on the dangers posed by measles and other (now) preventable communicable diseases, and how much harm they caused in the past (and not just in terms of mortality). For every anecdotal story that rest of at best shaky causal relationships, there are many hundreds or even thousands of factual stories of dead and disabled children before the era of immunisations.
In outbreaks in the past, it has required much self-control on my part when I have parents bringing in their kids suspected of having measles (or other preventable diseases) who refused vaccinations and seem horrendously cavalier with their childrens' lives. They distrust medicine but expect medicine to do everything to treat their children when they do get sick.
In outbreaks in the past, it has required much self-control on my part when I have parents bringing in their kids suspected of having measles (or other preventable diseases) who refused vaccinations and seem horrendously cavalier with their childrens' lives. They distrust medicine but expect medicine to do everything to treat their children when they do get sick.
147
Ms. Fisher states that we should wait for more facts and 57 out of 317 million isn't a lot. WOW!! Maybe anti vaxxers should wait for more facts on the dangers of vaccines before ignorantly refusing vaccines. And maybe any danger from vaccines is less than 57 in 317 million. Their decision not to vaccinate is not evidence based, but now they are going to wait for evidence that this outbreak is their fault??? Bizarre. The overwhelming evidence is that childhood vaccines have saved lives.
1
Many commenters seem to have missed the story about the doctor, Andrew Wakefield, that published the relationship between vaccines and autism years ago. He was found guilty of lying about his data and has been barred from practicing medicine in the UK, where he published his landmark lies.
No, this isn't about Reps or wealthy or the 1%. This is about a UK doctor that lied and his lies were published around the world, in reputable journals. This is what happens when studies are not vetted by objective scientists, but instead by emotion and politics. Like a lot of 'discoverys' today.
No, this isn't about Reps or wealthy or the 1%. This is about a UK doctor that lied and his lies were published around the world, in reputable journals. This is what happens when studies are not vetted by objective scientists, but instead by emotion and politics. Like a lot of 'discoverys' today.
70
Wakefield's "study" was published in The Lancet, which is one of the world's most prestigious peer-reviewed medical journals. His work was found to be not only wrong but out-and-out deliberately fraudulent. The Lancet has since retracted the article, but the damage has been done. This article never should have made it into a respectable journal in the first place. This incident, and others like it, should lead to much stricter processes for peer review.
26
Even more egregiously, was that Wakefield's motivation was money. He was part of consortium that was developing a COMPETITOR to MMR by Merck. They hoped his study would discredit Merck and send people fleeing to their 'safer' alternative, thus ensuring financial success. Unfortunately for them, the public couldn't/wouldn't parse that difference correctly and generalized it to ALL vaccines.
I find using this information with antivaxx braying donkeys will often make them pause. No one likes to think they were a pawn in someone's financial scam.
I find using this information with antivaxx braying donkeys will often make them pause. No one likes to think they were a pawn in someone's financial scam.
21
Not only that but vax compliance dropped precipitously in UK after the fraudulent study in effect creating a vast population study. Did autism levels also drop precipitously? No. Incidence of autism over two decades went up.
6
I would prefer that "debate" have been placed in quotations. There is no scientific debate to be had as it relates to the epidemiology or the ability of immunization to prevent and/or mitigate the disease course of these communicable conditions. We would not reopen the debate as to whether the earth is indeed 3 dimensional vs. 2 dimensional. The 'debate" would more appropriately focus on the challenging ethical issues around an individual's right to potentially place themselves or society at risk by opting out of vaccination. The additional wrinkle is of course that the most vulnerable individuals are minors whose non-immunized status results from a parental decision. The focus of the "debate" needs to address the tension between individual choice and greater public health concerns.
127
Exactly. This is the same kind of "debate" such as if Elvis is still secretly alive or not. We should not give these ignorant people credence by acting like there is an actual, reasonable debate between two rational beliefs here.
4
I wish your unvaccinated child were not in this country and by all means do not travel with your unvaccinated child to developing countries.
Measles remains a major problem in developing countries, where it affects tens of millions of children a year and causes approximately 1 in 30 of them to die.
Measles blindness is the single leading cause of blindness among children in low income countries. Death aside, do these OC parents and others even know that their kids could get measles and go blind?
Those reports of autism resulting from vaccines were debunked years ago by every serious scientist, including the person who originally reported it!
Measles remains a major problem in developing countries, where it affects tens of millions of children a year and causes approximately 1 in 30 of them to die.
Measles blindness is the single leading cause of blindness among children in low income countries. Death aside, do these OC parents and others even know that their kids could get measles and go blind?
Those reports of autism resulting from vaccines were debunked years ago by every serious scientist, including the person who originally reported it!
85
Moreover, if I were choosing a pediatrician today, I would not choose one who accepts unvaccinated patients.
www.confessionsofaworrywart.com
www.confessionsofaworrywart.com
15
Why do the lives of those saved by vaccinations never matter to the anti-vaccine mob?
There should be no non-medical exemptions from being vaccinated, not when those poor choices affect others either too sick or too young to be vaccinated.
There should be no non-medical exemptions from being vaccinated, not when those poor choices affect others either too sick or too young to be vaccinated.
64
Any community that does not ban non-vaccinated children should have any and all federal and state funds immediately yanked.
That will solve the problem.
We still live amongst luddites.
That will solve the problem.
We still live amongst luddites.
26
I just have anecdotal reports from parents who are convinced that their children were harmed by the vaccine. Doctor, you're probably not doing your patients, or their parents, any good if you treat them based on "anecdotes" without any basis in reality.
34
The high rate of unvaccinated school children in Santa Monica is likely due to doctors like Jay Gordon who fan parental fears. He "has no proof" "just ...anecdotal reports from parents." Wow! This is a guy who is trained in medicine taking his cues from parents rather than his medical education. Dr. Gordon, you are part of the problem.
31
Unfortunately many confuse the practice of medicine with science. While not mutually exclusive (I have met many physicians involved in cutting edge medical and biomedical research and not just MD/PhDs), it is possible that some physicians have absolutely no understanding of science and the research process.
A physician who truly understands the research process and what one does as a scientist would never make a statement like the one in the article. Dr.Jay Gordon deserves an apology from the natural sciences departments at the universities he attended, they have obviously failed him.
A physician who truly understands the research process and what one does as a scientist would never make a statement like the one in the article. Dr.Jay Gordon deserves an apology from the natural sciences departments at the universities he attended, they have obviously failed him.
5
These doctors and this woman from the "National Vaccine Information Center" (talk about a misnomer) are irresponsible in the extreme. Spreading this PROVEN falsehood about vaccines being dangerous is going to wind up getting people killed in the long run. And the sad thing is that no amount of science or statistics with prove otherwise, to their minds. Is it gonna take a repeat of smallpox or polio to make them see? Do we need to have kids lined up and crippled and dying again, before they learn?
73
Start civil suits against those parents, see how long before they stop spouting garbage pseudo-science.
I know people who go to Dr Gordon. He made a very nice niche for himself by charging extraordinary consierge rates and holding parents' hands. He caters to the neurosis of the wealthy clientele...and seems to forget that it is the children, not the parents who are his patients, and it is them (and others) he is putting at risk. First do no harm...
My kids pediatrician's office, also in Santa Monica, recently told their patients that they will not be able to continue treating children who are not vaccinated. Some grumbles, but as a mother of an infant who is too young to have the measles shot, I cheered.
Thank you thousands of doctors and scientists for working to protect us and thank you to the parents who vaccinate their kids to protect the rest of us.
My kids pediatrician's office, also in Santa Monica, recently told their patients that they will not be able to continue treating children who are not vaccinated. Some grumbles, but as a mother of an infant who is too young to have the measles shot, I cheered.
Thank you thousands of doctors and scientists for working to protect us and thank you to the parents who vaccinate their kids to protect the rest of us.
160
This is a circumstance in which there should be some kind of statute imposing a criminal penalty, e.g., reckless endangerment, or, failing that, establishing the right of a parent whose child could not be vaccinated (e.g., too young) to sue for civil damages against the parents of the child who could have been but wasn't.
I'm no fan of the medical-industrial complex or 'big pharma' -not by any means - and admittedly, as the recent book 'On Immunity' (one of the NYT's 'best books of 2014') recounts, when vaccines were first invented there was little quality control, the science was primitive, and they were generally class-based and coercive, forced upon the poor and disadvantaged to keep them from endangering the wealthy and privileged. Things have now more or less reversed, and it is generally the wealthy and privileged, the upscale 'yummy mummies' with their $1K Bugaboos, claiming the right to endanger the rest of us with their diseases.
I'm no fan of the medical-industrial complex or 'big pharma' -not by any means - and admittedly, as the recent book 'On Immunity' (one of the NYT's 'best books of 2014') recounts, when vaccines were first invented there was little quality control, the science was primitive, and they were generally class-based and coercive, forced upon the poor and disadvantaged to keep them from endangering the wealthy and privileged. Things have now more or less reversed, and it is generally the wealthy and privileged, the upscale 'yummy mummies' with their $1K Bugaboos, claiming the right to endanger the rest of us with their diseases.
28
I'm 71. I remember measles (both kinds), mumps, rubella and chicken pox - I had them all during my childhood. I particularly remember measles. It was quite warm, we had no air conditioning, and at that time we were to be in a darkened room in order to avoid damage to the eyes. A cousin of mine had measles as a child and ended up losing a substantial amount of her vision.
I also remember classmates dying of these diseases, as well as scarlet fever and whooping cough. Also, polio. I remember young men ending up sterile due to mumps. I've had shingles...twice. If there had been a chicken pox vaccine when I was a child, I would never have gotten chicken pox and would never have had shingles.
People have gotten too complacent about what are now preventable childhood diseases. This is a public health issue and as such, it should not be allowed to be optional to not vaccinate ones children. Yes, vaccinations can have side effects - it's why we no longer vaccinate for small pox - side effect risk is greater than the risk of the disease. But EVERYTHING potentially can have a side effect!
Do these parents know how much school children used to miss each year with these diseases? Wouldn't that be a treat for working mothers, to have multiple children out for weeks at a time. Oh...I forgot - these mothers don't work - they have nannies.
Frankly, I'm sick and tired of our indulgence of such idiocy.
I also remember classmates dying of these diseases, as well as scarlet fever and whooping cough. Also, polio. I remember young men ending up sterile due to mumps. I've had shingles...twice. If there had been a chicken pox vaccine when I was a child, I would never have gotten chicken pox and would never have had shingles.
People have gotten too complacent about what are now preventable childhood diseases. This is a public health issue and as such, it should not be allowed to be optional to not vaccinate ones children. Yes, vaccinations can have side effects - it's why we no longer vaccinate for small pox - side effect risk is greater than the risk of the disease. But EVERYTHING potentially can have a side effect!
Do these parents know how much school children used to miss each year with these diseases? Wouldn't that be a treat for working mothers, to have multiple children out for weeks at a time. Oh...I forgot - these mothers don't work - they have nannies.
Frankly, I'm sick and tired of our indulgence of such idiocy.
63
Uh-I'd be careful if I were you about dispensing medical advice! The last time that I checked, people who had received the chicken-pox vaccination WERE able to come-down with shingles.
Also-there are some studies indicating that vaccine-eradicating the wild-version of Chicken-pox, has contributed to more people getting shingles, since exposure to someone with chicken-pox was actually a natural "vaccine" to stimulate enough of a reaction to prevent shingles.
And-just for the record-can grocery stores please STOP giving vaccines? I swear when i see the signs advertising, it makes me a little sick thinking-about flu-mist receivers touching my grapes.
Also-there are some studies indicating that vaccine-eradicating the wild-version of Chicken-pox, has contributed to more people getting shingles, since exposure to someone with chicken-pox was actually a natural "vaccine" to stimulate enough of a reaction to prevent shingles.
And-just for the record-can grocery stores please STOP giving vaccines? I swear when i see the signs advertising, it makes me a little sick thinking-about flu-mist receivers touching my grapes.
2
The antivaccination movement is led by narcissists who think organic kale supplements will defeat polio, measles, and smallpox. They are deluded into thinking their Awesome Pure Lifestyle and Invincible Immune System will prevail, where their grandparents' and great-grandparents' failed. When outbreaks occur, they babble that measles (400 deaths/year pre-vaccine) is really a mild disease, In these homes there is often a non-working mother with a perverse desire to bond with an extremely sick child. (Having to take of Junior through the gamut of childhood diseases isn't compatible with both parents; working outside the home.)
There was a deaf boy in my grammar school from measles complications, which sent tens of thousands to hospitals every year. If it were only their own kids at risk, non-vaccination would only(!) be as bad as the faith healers who pray instead of giving their diabetic children insulin while they die, but in this case the sick kids are bioweapons aimed at babies too young for vaccines, AIDS patients, chemo patients, transplant patients, and those unlucky enough to have had vaccinations that didn't "take". Let them worship their bodies away from our schools and playgrounds.
There was a deaf boy in my grammar school from measles complications, which sent tens of thousands to hospitals every year. If it were only their own kids at risk, non-vaccination would only(!) be as bad as the faith healers who pray instead of giving their diabetic children insulin while they die, but in this case the sick kids are bioweapons aimed at babies too young for vaccines, AIDS patients, chemo patients, transplant patients, and those unlucky enough to have had vaccinations that didn't "take". Let them worship their bodies away from our schools and playgrounds.
105
"There are a lot of dumb people our there." I think we can agree that we all want our children to be healthy. We all love our children. I am astonished by the growth of this movement against vaccination. I survived polio in 1948, not long before the vaccine. I also had measles, mumps, and chicken pox, and recently, the resulting shingles. I'm grateful for the new vaccine which might prevent a recurrence. Always missing from articles about measles is the fact that it can cause blindness or deafness. I lost my hearing in one ear at the age of five. I remember how painful measles was, how miserable I felt, the terrible headache. Believe me, vaccines have made a better world. We are dividing, as a nation, into those who "believe" in science and those who don't. There is no convincing someone (I've tried) who simply does not understand the scientific method and who believes there are vast conspiracies working to suppress their point of view. The parents who withhold vaccination will be right there at the emergency room begging doctors just like those they refused to listen to, to save their child. When they refused vaccine, they did not picture the IVs, the scans, the intubation -- the plethora of painful procedures needed by a child with a brain-damaging fever or who is struggling to breathe -- medical procedures so much worse than the effects of any vaccine. I hope this turn back to medieval thinking reverses, and soon.
104
"Organizations that have led the campaign of doubts about vaccinations suggested that it was too soon to draw such a conclusion..."
Once a cockamamie idea like this starts sprouting "organizations," you have people whose livelihoods depend on perpetuating the idea. Given enough gullible parents (seem to be in ample supply) and a determined effort by the newly-hatched "industry" of vaccine-deniers, you've got something that won't go away soon. Same with climate-change deniers : ignorance exacerbated by people making money out of the deal.
Once a cockamamie idea like this starts sprouting "organizations," you have people whose livelihoods depend on perpetuating the idea. Given enough gullible parents (seem to be in ample supply) and a determined effort by the newly-hatched "industry" of vaccine-deniers, you've got something that won't go away soon. Same with climate-change deniers : ignorance exacerbated by people making money out of the deal.
34
This calls even more for the separation of church (and any kind of "belief") and state. That people can be exempt from measures that ensure the basic common good solely on the basis of their religious or whatever views of the world they hold is troublesome and demential. That a doctor (!) would say: “...Don’t get me wrong; I have no proof that this vaccine causes harm. I just have anecdotal reports from parents who are convinced that their children were harmed by the vaccine” and give it any credence is beyond belief! We can all produce anecdotal reports from any sort of ignoramus, but whether we should pay attention to that is another story.
23
Orange County?
Anti-science Republicans?
I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked!
Anti-science Republicans?
I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked!
27
We have the same problem in left wing Marin county, one of the wealthiest in the country. The problem is affluenza.
26
Actually most of the people who refuse to vaccinate kids are very liberal Democrats. Ignorance and conspirancy mongering does not respect party lines. For right wingers it is global warming and evolution, for left it is vaccines and big pharma
17
The last anti-vaccine hearing in Congress was held by a Tea Party Republican, Darrell Issa from Southern California.
11
Well now we all know to stay away from affluent California communities to protect ourselves from communicable diseases. Shall we have a travel ban?
16
No amount of evidence will convince someone if it contradicts their worldview. The worldview here is that science is not the best way to determine how the physical world works and its scientists often conspire to deliberately misinform the public. It is also believed that the FDA is in the pocket of Big Pharma and "natural" substances are always safer and more effective than medicines that have been rigorously tested and demonstrated to actually work. This worldview is a religion much like evangelical Christianity. The difference being its adherents are mostly well-educated, left leaning and affluent.
48
I don't consider these people educated. (They may consider themselves educated but that's another issue.) And IMO allowing things like Creationism to be taught as a viable theory of how man appeared on earth in TX to me encourages this sort of peculiar (non-rational, pseudo-scientific) thinking.
18
A lot of them may be educated, but obviously not with a strong science background. By the way, the anti-vaxxer movement is one area where the extreme right and the extreme left come together. Remember Michelle Bachmann and her HPV causes retardation claim? She's educated as well, but not in science or in critical thinking. I gather that critical thinking actually is considered to be unfavourable among the extreme right by their attempts to ban its teaching.
6
I'm not so sure. Most of the so-called "alternative medicine" acolytes I know have no formal education beyond high school.
I think this article has too much false "balance" with almost equal space being given to the anti-vaccination crusaders as to scientists and doctors working from an evidence-based perspective.
139
I completely agree with Henry. Even the use of the word "debate" in the headline gives the false impression of some reasonable disagreement. On the one hand we have irrefutable scientific evidence and on the other we have quacks like Dr. "Jay" who says "I have no proof that this vaccine causes harm. I just have anecdotal reports from parents who are convinced that their children were harmed by the vaccine.”
Children are dying from preventable diseases because these quacks build their medical practices (Dr. Bob Sears!) by pandering to the fears and ignorance of parents.
Of course, let's not forget Oprah and Dr. Oz. Where were they when Andrew Wakefield was proven to be a fraud? Their continued silence is shameful. Oprah and Oz should spend several hours on TV encouraging 100% compliance with the recommended vaccination schedule.
Children are dying from preventable diseases because these quacks build their medical practices (Dr. Bob Sears!) by pandering to the fears and ignorance of parents.
Of course, let's not forget Oprah and Dr. Oz. Where were they when Andrew Wakefield was proven to be a fraud? Their continued silence is shameful. Oprah and Oz should spend several hours on TV encouraging 100% compliance with the recommended vaccination schedule.
45
Is this exclusively about measles, or is Rubella ("German measles") also spreading? It matters, because although Rubella is less severe and less infectious, it can cause severe birth defects if contract by women in early stages of pregnancy. The vaccine covers both, I believe.
Are those irresponsible, misguided folks who refuse vaccinations for their own children willing not only to risk outbreaks and epidemics that could injure other people's children, but also willing to risk an increase in birth defects and abortions for other women?
Are those irresponsible, misguided folks who refuse vaccinations for their own children willing not only to risk outbreaks and epidemics that could injure other people's children, but also willing to risk an increase in birth defects and abortions for other women?
40
If you have been vaccinated, you are not going to contract the disease. It spreads to those not vaccinated. So 'other people's children' are no at risk. Nor are birth defects, as long as the mom either had the disease as a child or was vaccinated. Stop the panic.
Mary, you are incorrect. When someone is vaccinated, there is no way of knowing for sure if the vaccination "took" fully. People may only be partially protected, or not protected at all. This is why herd immunity is so important to sustain, and why everyone who can (there are rare medical exceptions) should be vaccinated. No one here is "panicking", but some people posting are clearly not very well educated on how vaccines actually work.
20
That is not true, Mary. No vaccine is 100% effective. For every 10,000 five year olds who have received both MMR shots, about 250 are still susceptible to the measles virus. Also, the MMR vaccine doesn't work in children under one year. And then there are the hundreds of thousands of Americans for whom vaccines are medically contraindicated.
You need to better inform yourself before you comment.
You need to better inform yourself before you comment.
21
Most of us probably view anti-vaxxers as a nuisance, with consequences for the rest of us being random and unlikely. Perhaps the notion that your own life has to be restricted in order to avoid dread diseases being almost willfully spread by unreasonable people who think their own children are more important than yours will make the general public less accommodating than they have been. I have my doubts, but let's hope so. In the meantime, for heaven's sake, don't take someone to young or ill to be vaccinated to an amusement park.
25
I think Dr Jay Gordon should have his license revoked. A doctor basing his decisions on "anecdotal reports from parents" ???? I'll stick with evidence-based medicine, please.
139
Read his comments. He said he is giving more vaccine then ever before - so clearly he not basing his medical decisions on anectodal reports! You can't pull a doctor's license just because he has an opinion about something! Those of you who want to line up and shoot anyone who questions the vaccine industry should realize you are not doing the cause any good with these kinds of threats.
2
Hi eme: actually,it doesn't matter whether he is giving "more than ever before" if he wasn't giving much before. What matters is whether he is giving them when he should - and whether he is educating his patients in the realities of medical science, or whether he is indulging their ill-informed and dangerous ideas. We hope he tells his patients about washing their hands when they should, but in his case, we can't be sure, can we? He is the one who refers to "anecdotal evidence", no one else made that up.
4
If nothing else, this health crisis should shake people out of complacency about vaccinations. No one is naturally impervious and if too many people rely on others' responsibility, outbreaks will arise. And no personal belief will be protection.
46
I never met my cousin Barbara. She died before I was born. Of measles.
Measles put me in the hospital for a week, and caused a 10% loss in hearing.
This is not just a simple childhood disease.
Measles put me in the hospital for a week, and caused a 10% loss in hearing.
This is not just a simple childhood disease.
135
“There are some pretty dumb people out there.”
Nice statement there doctor. Perhaps the people aren't really dumb, but simply dumbfounded by the amount of poor and misleading information they have found while striving to do the best for their children.
As a parent, I know how difficult it is in this day and age, when pharmaceutical and food corporations are actively engaged in practices that are barely vetted by oversight agencies that have been captured by the industries they are tasked with overseeing.
Nice statement there doctor. Perhaps the people aren't really dumb, but simply dumbfounded by the amount of poor and misleading information they have found while striving to do the best for their children.
As a parent, I know how difficult it is in this day and age, when pharmaceutical and food corporations are actively engaged in practices that are barely vetted by oversight agencies that have been captured by the industries they are tasked with overseeing.
12
Ah, no, refusing vaccinations is dumb. No way around it, none of these people have any proof whatsoever that vaccines are dangerous, it's just a rumor they've heard, like that the pyramids in Egypt were built by outer-space aliens, or that frogs can control peoples' minds for their own nefarious purposes. Such people are dumb, and there are a lot of them.
70
Is there a lot of misleading information about the measles vaccine protecting against measles? I'm also concerned with pharmaceutical and food corporations and their influence, but the measles vaccine is established as definitely protecting populations against measles. The airline corporations profit from the theory of gravitation, and would lose money if we could fly naturally; that doesn't mean we should all try jumping off buildings the next time we want to get to Salt Lake City. I'm with you on working against corporate control of information, but not everything is a conspiracy.
48
When presented with mountains of peer-reviewed evidence from studies not funded by interested parties (such as the companies that make vaccines), the anti-vaccination advocates will not change their minds, but a blog or two on the Interwebs and their minds are made up forever.
Sorry, Marcus, but those are not the hallmarks of intelligent minds.
Sorry, Marcus, but those are not the hallmarks of intelligent minds.
59