University life isn't about drinking. Or drugs. Or, for that matter, parties. Issues of rape, drunkeness, etc. are anti-thetical to the whole idea of academic life. The university should be a place to pursue an intellectual passion, not a sexual one. Young people fall in love at university as well as anywhere else but it is not the purpose or point of university life. I beleive that the system based on amassing "credit hours" in "courses" unrelated to an area of concentration, requiring time wasters like "phys ed" and "mickey mouse" courses of all kinds is the source of the social problems on campus. There is no FOCUS in education at any level when each "class" runs for only 50 minutes. It is an arbitrary system and a destructive one. In the absence of any compelling intellectual interest, students (who should be scholars) use the notion of the 'well-rounded general education' as an excuse for social pursuits. The entire system needs to be re-thought perhaps syphoning off schools of business and some technical concentrations as separate technical institutes. That was, and remains, a far more practical alternative to un-manageable mega-versities where focus is lost - and so are a lot of students.
3
This is bonkers. Surely the problem is not alcohol, but the fact that some fraternity boys think it's okay to sexually assaulting women. I went to university in the UK - Brits drink an awful lot at uni, but I was never scared of being assaulted by a peer!
Don't make young women throw "anti-rape parties", just teach your young men not to rape people.
Don't make young women throw "anti-rape parties", just teach your young men not to rape people.
2
absurd response to a problem that is of a much broader scope than can be addressed by switching the location of a party.
if drinking with frat boys were the problem, wouldn't the best solution be to stop drinking altogether? and do these girls really think they are attending frat parties for the free alcohol? nothing more complicated than that? frat boys are (sadly) the future investment bankers and politicians and mbas. everything migrates to a locus of future control.
are the sororities not going to invite frat boys to their parties? (pretty sure they will find their way there, somehow) maybe all parties should be mandated as single sex?
these aren't serious questions, but then I can hardly believe this idea could be taken seriously. I'm sure there are fewer rapes of women who live in convents, so here's a brilliant solution to rape prevention-- just herd all women into barricaded communal living spaces, so men won't be tempted.
if drinking with frat boys were the problem, wouldn't the best solution be to stop drinking altogether? and do these girls really think they are attending frat parties for the free alcohol? nothing more complicated than that? frat boys are (sadly) the future investment bankers and politicians and mbas. everything migrates to a locus of future control.
are the sororities not going to invite frat boys to their parties? (pretty sure they will find their way there, somehow) maybe all parties should be mandated as single sex?
these aren't serious questions, but then I can hardly believe this idea could be taken seriously. I'm sure there are fewer rapes of women who live in convents, so here's a brilliant solution to rape prevention-- just herd all women into barricaded communal living spaces, so men won't be tempted.
2
As a sorority member, I do think that this is a problem and issue that is applicable to today. However, I think there is one other aspect of these national sorority policies that might be easier to change and would provide more safety with less insurance concerns. Most national sororities, including my own, do not allow boys in the bedroom area of the house. Although this is certainly not the intent, it causes all private sexual activities to take place on the fraternity's turf. Although this rule is certainly broken by many members, I think having a more open option of bringing boys back to the house would provide an extra security net for the women. If a sorority woman returned incapacitated with a suspicious man, there is a better chance it would be rooted out by her sisters and discontinued. Just a thought.
5
You can't fight fire with fire. Encouraging students to hold parties with alcohol at more locations will not only continue this anarchic culture of college binge drinking, but worsen it. The problem isn't rooted in the venue of the alcohol, but more in the restrictions that need to be imposed regarding the alcohol. No matter how safe a sorority party may appear, a predator may be in plain sight and go unnoticed. Sexual assaulters could always find a way to spike a drink when no ones looking, or lure a girl outside, seemingly appearing as a friendly gesture to walk her home. By cracking down on fraternities, colleges could decrease the the number of sexual assaults by creating a more controlled environment, with perhaps chaperones present who aren't members of the fraternity. To this end, if colleges truly want to address this issue, they should educate their students more effectively on the dangers of drinking and parties as such, rather than retaliating with more alcohol fueled events.
Here's a simple idea -- ditch the frats and sororities and alcohol and focus on what colleges should be: INSTITUTIONS OF LEARNING.
2
Same goes for college so called "sports" tesms
1
Isn't it true that 90 percent of the students who attend the Colleges are below the legal drinking age. Why are they allowed to serve booze in the first place and why did not the reporter discuss this issue.
2
Some colleges have no little to no football and no sororities or fraternities. They have to do things like outdoor sports and study and stuff. Poor babies. Might even get an education.
3
I have a simple solution: Ban alcohol on all campuses. Period.
To Mo M. Right. Because prohibition worked so well for the country as a whole.
1
I suspect these young women would do more good if they actually stopped and examined the whole alcohol culture at colleges. Why is getting drunk so important?
IMHO, the problem with ANY house party on campus where alcohol is served (i.e., not exclusively fraternity parties), is that bedrooms and exclusive-entry spaces are accessible during the event. If a university's fraternity council simply required bedrooms and non-egress sections of chapter houses to be closed off during parties - and restricted said parties to one or two common rooms of the house - I think it would go a long way to mitigating the potential of rape (to the extent it exists at any particular house). The idea that alcohol fueled parties within womens' student housing is the solution to rape is one of the dumbest things I've read in this forum. My sense is the reason most sororities prohibit alcohol at house functions is a matter of preserving the value of their real estate, limiting insurance premiums, and is mainly operating expense driven; so permitting wet parties would be the opposite of pragmatic. Just associate with gentlemen.
As a taxpayer who supports these schools, I recommend: no alcohol on campus; ban all students from joining any greek organization, on or off campus; discontinue any and all non-campus programs supported by schools, unless they serve a legitimate need); any of these programs caught with alcohol on the premises, immediately cease funding; stop all sports, no money for coliseums, no million dollar coach salaries, no more athletic equipment other than that used for graded PE classes, no airplane tickets to go off to the middle of nowhere to play Bullwinkle U; sorry ladies, to comply with Title IX. all your sports go, too.
I finished my doctorate in 1998, so I could afford to go to school. I spent, about $120,000 to complete my doctorate and post doc fellowships. That's an absurd amount of money for 1998
You know much UCLA's football coach makes, per year? $21 million. How much does he contribute to the academic life at UCLA? zero. Every dollar I pay should go to fulfill the academic mission of the university.
I finished my doctorate in 1998, so I could afford to go to school. I spent, about $120,000 to complete my doctorate and post doc fellowships. That's an absurd amount of money for 1998
You know much UCLA's football coach makes, per year? $21 million. How much does he contribute to the academic life at UCLA? zero. Every dollar I pay should go to fulfill the academic mission of the university.
4
Archduke, don't know what your PhD is in but it wasn't math. The UCLA football coach made $2.1 million in '12, an obscene amount it's true but ten times less than you think.
College athletics need to be brought under control, even rolled way back, but just because you don't like them doesn't mean that for many schools they are overall revenue creators in many forms, especially in terms of alumni support.
The article was about something entirely different than what you spent your post commenting about. This is still a free country. Most Greek houses, as far as I know, are on private property and I'm pretty sure they and their parents pay taxes and probably donate far more money to their alma maters than some.
That said, I don't like the Greek system much myself.
College athletics need to be brought under control, even rolled way back, but just because you don't like them doesn't mean that for many schools they are overall revenue creators in many forms, especially in terms of alumni support.
The article was about something entirely different than what you spent your post commenting about. This is still a free country. Most Greek houses, as far as I know, are on private property and I'm pretty sure they and their parents pay taxes and probably donate far more money to their alma maters than some.
That said, I don't like the Greek system much myself.
3
Archduke
UCLA'S football coach may not have contributed much,in your view, to "academic life," but he makes it possible. Like it or not, academics cost money, and doctoral programs are users, rather than generators of money. Football may not have the elitist snob appeal of Ph.D programs, but it pays for them, and unlike every doctoral professor and student, that football coach helps make the university possible.
UCLA'S football coach may not have contributed much,in your view, to "academic life," but he makes it possible. Like it or not, academics cost money, and doctoral programs are users, rather than generators of money. Football may not have the elitist snob appeal of Ph.D programs, but it pays for them, and unlike every doctoral professor and student, that football coach helps make the university possible.
2
Very very very few athletic programmes generate revenue that filters beyond the programmes themselves and the vast majority of athletic programmes are net financial drains on universities. This is well documented.
I think the Greek system is toxic and patriarchal and misogynistic and a lot of other bad things, but I don't really see any way it could actually be banned outright -- free-association and all that. Students don't give up all their rights by going to university and either frats or something similar could certainly exist off-campus, with or without a ban.
I don't know the answer. The culture of putting alcohol on a pedestal that can only be approached at twenty-one seems flawed, but cultures with lower drinking ages also have alcohol related social problems and violence.
I think the Greek system is toxic and patriarchal and misogynistic and a lot of other bad things, but I don't really see any way it could actually be banned outright -- free-association and all that. Students don't give up all their rights by going to university and either frats or something similar could certainly exist off-campus, with or without a ban.
I don't know the answer. The culture of putting alcohol on a pedestal that can only be approached at twenty-one seems flawed, but cultures with lower drinking ages also have alcohol related social problems and violence.
I have a revolutionary idea: find ways to have fun other than getting completely trashed.
4
If bad things happen at parties, don't go to parties.
4
Easy to say don't go here or don't go there.
My significant' other & I are both nice people. Pretty grateful for the place we met. I won't specify where, but no one's mom would approve.
My significant' other & I are both nice people. Pretty grateful for the place we met. I won't specify where, but no one's mom would approve.
1
yes the age limit is absurd at 21 but I went to university in England where the priority was to get paralytic drunk as often as possible so let's not overstate the "21 = repressed rapist" theory. Others have said this elsewhere but The Dartmouth / Sigma Delt' example is exciting because that thinking if applied worldwide (take the power and distribute evenly across genders) will literally save the human race
3
At one university a group of senior girls rent a house and throw big parties on weekends complete with kegs and half gallons. The day after the lawn and sidewalks are littered with broken bottles and plastic cups. Only the girls and their guests know what goes on in the house.
1
Sigma Delta has had and continues to host great parties. They are an asset to the Dartmouth Community- three cheers for the women of Sigma Delta and their alumni! May other sororities follow in your footsteps! - fellow Dartmouth grad.
4
Even at home parties for older humans and much younger kids, there have occurred drinking, drugging and violence.
So. When can everyone face up to the one and only reason that anybody who attends is a person at risk for being victimized?
So. When can everyone face up to the one and only reason that anybody who attends is a person at risk for being victimized?
1
Please explain why anyone should need to feel at risk simply by attending a college social event. The very fact that this seems to be the case ought to raise serious questions about our culture's implicit -- or perhaps excplicit -- tolerance for such environments to exist.
5
Wow, as a GDI, I had no idea sororities couldn't have their own parties and alcohol was banned.
What a no-brainer. How entrenched must be the culture be for the idea to allow sororities to have their own parties on their own turf under their own control to be so long in coming.
This could begin a process of major culturalal shift, not just in the Greek system itself, but society-wide as let's face it, these people move on and run the world. It's high time this happens, and the sooner the better. A little emasculation and civilizing of boardrooms and Wall Street is long past due.
What a no-brainer. How entrenched must be the culture be for the idea to allow sororities to have their own parties on their own turf under their own control to be so long in coming.
This could begin a process of major culturalal shift, not just in the Greek system itself, but society-wide as let's face it, these people move on and run the world. It's high time this happens, and the sooner the better. A little emasculation and civilizing of boardrooms and Wall Street is long past due.
4
I went to a "party school" in the late 80s, before rapes and sexual assaults were commonplace. My female friends and I routinely got very, very drunk on the house "punch," then flirted with, dirty-danced with, made out with, and occasionally "hooked up" with the guys at the more than two dozen frats at my school. Through all of those wild nights -- and there were many -- I never heard of a single instance of sexual assault. Neither myself nor any of my friends ever had a guy ignore a "no" or try to push things further than we were willing. So what's changed? A greater sense of entitlement? Less parental involvement? Less respect for women in general? Stronger punch? I have no idea, but in my experience, alcohol isn't a problem if (1) the men you're partying with are respectful and were raised right, and (2) you don't drink yourself into unconsciousness, since it's hard to say yes, no, or anything else when you're passed out. Maybe that's what's changed???
6
I wonder the same thing every time I read one of these articles!
I was in college at the same time, often went to frat parties (usually alone), sometimes got drunk (rarely since usually they only served beer which I dislike) and never thought it was unsafe to be anywhere in a building with any guy(s). I also never heard anyone discuss sexual assault. So I too have been trying to figure out what has happened since then!
The 2 things I can think of are 1) raising the drinking age to 21 which has made drinking less controlled (18 year olds were allowed to drink beer and wine where I went to school) as well as led to more binge drinking and 2) today's college guys grew up watching porn on the internet which has given them misogynistic ideas.
I was in college at the same time, often went to frat parties (usually alone), sometimes got drunk (rarely since usually they only served beer which I dislike) and never thought it was unsafe to be anywhere in a building with any guy(s). I also never heard anyone discuss sexual assault. So I too have been trying to figure out what has happened since then!
The 2 things I can think of are 1) raising the drinking age to 21 which has made drinking less controlled (18 year olds were allowed to drink beer and wine where I went to school) as well as led to more binge drinking and 2) today's college guys grew up watching porn on the internet which has given them misogynistic ideas.
9
Hi Susie - you left out one possibility - that the media is pushing a narrative in order to make a political point.
2
you both left out another much stronger possibility- that the rate of rapes that are reported is rising, while the rate of rapes that actually occur is remaining steady.
1
We have always had, and continue to have, a very naive and puritanical conception of alcohol use in this country. In most of the U.S.A. we permit youth to drive motor vehicles far sooner (16 years) than they most likely possess the judgment required to safely operate such a potentially deadly instrumentality. Meanwhile, our laws expect them never to touch alcohol except under the most limited of circumstances until the ridiculously late age of 21. Is it any wonder that they over-indulge during their first blush with real independence?
3
When the drinking age was a more sensible 18, we did not have to rely on fraternities to flout the law for us. As a college student, I would often go with my friends for a relaxing beer or two in the local town, paid for with my own money and brought to me in a reputable establishment where I did not have to fear that someone may have spiked it or would pressure me to consume larger amounts. If we want to look seriously at the problem of binge drinking, we cannot ignore the unintended consequences of a mandated drinking age of 21, which pushes college students into fraternity parties as their only social outlet. Expecting most college age students to forego any kind of alcohol intake is unrealistic, but the answer, unregulated, law-flouting parties, is creating a crisis of binge drinking and its consequences.
10
Sorority houses have different models of ownership, and the issue of liability and insurance, both for the local chapter and the national sorority, have been cited as a reason for "no alcohol" since the 70s.
1
Just stay away from men.
4
i like it. shades of the Lysistrata
Oh boy, I was wondering when the all powerful liquor lobby would figure out a way to turn this into another opportunity to enslave vulnerable college kids. Yeah, the best was to deal with epidemic campus alcohol abuse is to expand it.
It doesn't matter at some third rate paper mill like George Washington but young people intent on education at schools capable of providing it should sober up.
It doesn't matter at some third rate paper mill like George Washington but young people intent on education at schools capable of providing it should sober up.
6
It's all a capitalist conspiracy!
The gender disparity in Greek party life comes down to diverging approaches to risk management, and the fact that it's so bizarrely gendered should get everybody's attention. I wrote essentially this same story in October—I'm the news editor at a small alt weekly in Charlottesville—shortly before the Rolling Stone story on campus rape trained the safety spotlight on UVA. What Stellhorn said to me about why sororities heed their more restrictive alcohol rules while fraternities regularly flaunt their comparatively liberal ones: "Women tend to be better rule followers." Our story: http://www.c-ville.com/different-rules-fraternities-sororities-make-camp...
6
And of course I meant flout.
I grew up in French household. There always were two bottle French wine at the table at lunch time. Kids and adults were allowed to drink. My mom often mixed tiny bit of wine with our drinking water for flavor and to build up our appetite. I've seen those bottles day after day after day on the table they were rarely consumed. On special occasion my dad gave us a little bit of wine for celebrations we were 12 children none of us are drinkers today. When we drink we have a hard time finishing the second class. I do agree with some of the comments that we should socialize our children at a much younger age to remove all the mysticism about alcohol. We never needed to drink to get high, social interaction and engaging conversations kept us going for hours. binge drinking is a concept I discovered in North America it starts well and ends up pretty messy. I still can't understand how intelligent people can get wasted to the point of passing out, It sometimes leads to very costly and damaging consequences which could very easily be avoided by learning how to be reasonable at a very early age. The taste of beer and wine when we are young tastes awful. It is the best deterrent for keeping the consumption of alcohol at bay for many years . Puritanism and rigid upbringing leads to abuses when we become young free adults with no experience or understanding on how to manage alcohol or any substances which are mood altering.
14
Exactly. I grew up in the US but, as an adult, have lived in several European countries including France. Many of my European friends may have a beer or a glass of wine with lunch and then go back to work. Then they have a bottle (or 2) of wine with a meal in the evening. They have barely been drunk in their lives.
I think Americans and Europeans drink the same amount each week but the Europeans do it over a 7 day period and at meals and the Americans do it in 2 binges Friday and Saturday night. Horrible.
I think Americans and Europeans drink the same amount each week but the Europeans do it over a 7 day period and at meals and the Americans do it in 2 binges Friday and Saturday night. Horrible.
3
Young adults and older adults do want to party. Regardless of where they live, adults should be given multiple opportunities to mix and have fun. Alcohol can be part of the experiences, I think, but with both adults and young adults there should be basic requirements such as providing some sort of unlimited free food and other liquids with it and basically limiting the total amount of alcohol consumed. At dances, they could have a rest corner where any party goer could lean back on a couch without worry. Maybe they just need a little nap. In addition, there should be a lot of skiing, hiking, dancing, movie nights, school plays, organized sports etc. too. It's unrealistic to expect kids to do nothing except work.
3
I don't think it will make much of a difference. The same people mistreating women at frats will be there. The only difference will be the location.
4
Also, if the sorority girls have parties at their sorority houses, then men should not be invited, and if men are invited, then the parties must be chaperoned by university officials.
1
And the women should wear white gloves, right? And drink from dainty glasses?
3
Men not invited; that's even weirder than no alcohol. All things in moderation....
Boy, talk about sexism. I thought it was bad when I went into the Bloomingdale's baby dept. last week for a gift and could only find baby girl stuff in pink. We still haven't moved beyond this, I thought to myself.
I didn't even know alcohol wasn't permitted in sorority houses. That is very funny. That is real deep-rooted sexism of an almost southern variety and sort of "keeping up appearances" for all the husband hunting dollies who want to project a "pure" image.
My idea is to just get rid of all sororities and fraternities and let people learn to live on their own like grownups.
I didn't even know alcohol wasn't permitted in sorority houses. That is very funny. That is real deep-rooted sexism of an almost southern variety and sort of "keeping up appearances" for all the husband hunting dollies who want to project a "pure" image.
My idea is to just get rid of all sororities and fraternities and let people learn to live on their own like grownups.
8
Well, there was an earlier comment from somebody in the CSU system who noted how they initially tried to discourage fraternities, but the fraternities used their money and influence to fight their way in. Besides, you can't stop people from belonging to a group entirely, even if the college doesn't officially sanction it. And even if you could ban all fraternities and sororities, people would just create other exclusive groups, with much of the same bad features, under different names. Much of it's just the human nature towards tribalism.
Agree with John. I went to a school with a vibrant Greek system. In my first year out of college one of my colleagues spoke disdainfully of "southern schools" with their emphasis on sororities and fraternities. She went to a northeastern school that had "none of that." Ten minutes later she was saying how in college she was in student government all 4 years. It was where "all the cool and popular kids were and it was hard to get into." Uh....sounds like a fraternity by a different name! Hysterical.
1
If they want fraternities and sororities -- off campus and on their own dime (or their parents' I suspect) -- fine with me, but I just don't want any of my taxpayer dollars spent on university administration (whether the president or an assistant dean) regulating them.
My sons simply avoided fraternity parties at Rutgers and so did their female friends. And they and their high school alums didn't join either: our town high school was 49 % Latinos and African American. The kids didn't believe in discrimination. Tarrytown, N.Y. was their good, healthy environment.
3
When I was in a sorority at UVA in early 80s, we were allowed to have alcohol and would host afternoon "mixers" with fraternities. It was a nice way to have a social life on "our turf" and not dependent on going to weekend fraternity parties, which gets old.
2
The wonder is that so much of our culture has been taken over by drugs. Alcohol and marijuana are now huge commercial activities. We are one of the world's great consumers of cocaine and its associated addictive drugs. This consumption is not all at the ghetto levels, it obviously pervades the top levels of our "better classes" as well, or it wouldn't be such a vast source of wealth to the underworld.
If college life is just a sequence of alcoholic parties, whether fraternity or sorority sponsored, we must be missing something in the college environment that once was prized, namely learning and disciplined thinking. Can there by any question that we are twittering, facebooking, and hedonistically frittering away our educational opportunities at an accelerating rate?
If college life is just a sequence of alcoholic parties, whether fraternity or sorority sponsored, we must be missing something in the college environment that once was prized, namely learning and disciplined thinking. Can there by any question that we are twittering, facebooking, and hedonistically frittering away our educational opportunities at an accelerating rate?
6
Indeed. The most cogent comment so far.
2
Raising the drinking age to 21 when the voting age and age many enter the national forces is 18 was a mistake. Everyone knows that underage drinking occurs at colleges. Reduce the age to 18 again and have some modicum of control when it comes to drinking. Colleges can require certain students to be assigned to making sure unwanted activities, and these include other activities in addition to rape, occur during these frat parties.
6
I've often said lower the drinking age to 16 and raise the driving age to 18 or higher.
3
I went to Dartmouth and was a member of a national sorority. We did not host parties but co-hosted at fraternities. I attended a number of parties at Sigma Delta and other local sororities as well. Although I wasn't a member of SD, I did not feel like having the party at a sorority made a bit of difference in terms of the men behaving any better. I didn't feel any safer there - I took the usual precautions in terms of watching my drinking and making sure friends had my back (and vice versa). I knew members who disliked that they had to clean up and pony up $ because of drunk, rowdy attendees breaking windows and causing other damage.
Given Dartmouth's rural location, the idea of banning the greek system is not a good idea - you'll just drive the partying to uncontrolled private houses rather than these greek houses where the college does have some involvement. No matter how hard the school tries to provide social programming (all dry), we have to be realistic that it won't replace the parties that many students seek. The closest city is Boston, 2 hours away.
Given Dartmouth's rural location, the idea of banning the greek system is not a good idea - you'll just drive the partying to uncontrolled private houses rather than these greek houses where the college does have some involvement. No matter how hard the school tries to provide social programming (all dry), we have to be realistic that it won't replace the parties that many students seek. The closest city is Boston, 2 hours away.
3
I think it's great that sororities are taking steps to control the situation.
However, it's just as important to teach young men the meaning of consent and how to respect it as it is to teach young women how to protect themselves. Anything but enthusiastic consent is a "no".
Turning away means no.
Trying to leave means no.
Saying "I don't think I want to" means no.
Crying means no.
Drunk or high means no.
Passed out means no.
ONLY YES MEANS YES!
However, it's just as important to teach young men the meaning of consent and how to respect it as it is to teach young women how to protect themselves. Anything but enthusiastic consent is a "no".
Turning away means no.
Trying to leave means no.
Saying "I don't think I want to" means no.
Crying means no.
Drunk or high means no.
Passed out means no.
ONLY YES MEANS YES!
10
The heavy drinking at these events, it seems, is not driven by a sense of connoisseurship of alcoholic beverages. Nor do a lot of these young people, especially the women, seem to enjoy getting drunk, which so often involves getting sick.
But everyone keep on lining up for the jello shots anyway.
I suggest they are really there for something else, and the drinking is simply an imperfect way to relieve their inhibitions. Perhaps the solution here lies in a much greater acceptance of sex, and the emergence of social forms to help young people make that decision in a spirit of openness and sobriety.
Another benefit: that would disempower the queen bees of the sorority who, according to recent research, rely on 'slut-shaming' other young women to buttress their own stature, usually derived from their parents' money.
But everyone keep on lining up for the jello shots anyway.
I suggest they are really there for something else, and the drinking is simply an imperfect way to relieve their inhibitions. Perhaps the solution here lies in a much greater acceptance of sex, and the emergence of social forms to help young people make that decision in a spirit of openness and sobriety.
Another benefit: that would disempower the queen bees of the sorority who, according to recent research, rely on 'slut-shaming' other young women to buttress their own stature, usually derived from their parents' money.
4
And it is so sad to see no self image beyond physical attractiveness and no curiosity and engagement in the world. It seems like alcohol numbs the pain for these young people who shouldn't be in such pain.
1
Why not join forces? Surely would be possible for a frat and a sorority to hold parties together. They could use the frat's premises, but have members of the sorority involved in organizing and watching over the proceedings. That way, the sorority doesn't have to pay the extra insurance for drinking, and the girls would be made to feel more safe and in control.
2
Fraternities and their "sister" sororities already party together. It's different when you're drinking on someone else's turf.
1
What am I missing here? Is drinking alcohol legal or illegal in fraternity and sorority houses nationwide? I assume minimum age set by state law is pretty clear. If the state is getting certain types of federal aid, minimum age is 21. If it is illegal why are colleges tolerating it? Administrative hand wringing is not going to solve the problem. If the drinkers expect to be treated like adults, then they need to control their actions like adults. If they can't, the college or national fraternity need to step in and do so - now.
3
I've never seen a woman at a fraternity party forced to drink. Or forced to drink too much. (Drunk women aren't that much fun to be around let alone have mutually agreeable and fun sexual relations.) It's time for women in college to take responsibility for the social lives. Don't show up at a fraternity without a date unless to plan not to drink. Don't wear your sluttiest clothes and then drink too much and hope to attract a sober, well-mannered gentleman. The next day, when you are sober, it wasn't just his fault. And, unless you are a fraternity or sorority member, I doubt that you have any useful input into this discussion.
6
What nobody is discussing is the fact that drinking is not an all-encompassing word. There's drinking a glass or two to feel a bit more relaxed and less shy, and then there's drinking to get obliterated. Too many college students are drinking to get obliterated. As in, dangerous amounts. Amounts that don't just lead to unwanted sexual encounters, but that also lead to serious alcohol poisoning which in turns leads to hospitalization and sometimes death. It's not just about the right to drink or not drink. It's about drinking RESPONSIBLY. Something that too few college students in America know how to do, unfortunately.
12
As a current member of the Greek community at Indiana University, I think this article hits on some strong points but the underlying theme is still that women should "avoid" getting raped by avoiding certain environments, thus putting the onus back on women. The public similarly puts the onus on victims of domestic violence, asking them "why they stay" with their partners. This perpetuates the notion that we put ourselves in dangerous environments, and we share the blame of sexual assaults. Instead of asking women, and men who have been victims of sexual violence, why aren't we teaching perpetrators not to rape, and abuse? Why aren't we teaching people not to rape, rather than not to get raped?
28
Why have "greek" organizations at all? My university did fine without them for many years. I never wanted to join one. Neither did my family members or any of the friends I made in college. In something called a "university", why purposely create little elite groups? Colleges and their dorms and departments already have clubs and activities open to interested students.
33
Joining a Greek organization is a choice. I chose to join and it fostered leadership skills and strategic planning skills I use today in my business that I would not have anticipated when I pledged. Joining a sorority is not an attractive choice for everyone, but I enjoyed having a smaller group of friends on a large campus to have dinner with in the evenings, to study with, to have a ready tennis partner, and someone to get up and jog with in the dark most mornings. I enjoyed it more than other living options and our house was very close to campus so it was practical, too. No one has to join, but for those who enjoy the opportunities it offers, I am glad it exists.
2
When I was in a sorority in college, we found a good middle ground to this problem. Often our sorority would have "mixers" with the fraternities on campus. A mixer is a party where one sorority would pair up with one fraternity-only members of those two organizations would be allowed to attend the event. While the mixers were almost always held at the fraternity houses, the social committee of the sorority would work with the fraternity to plan the party. Together we would decide on themes, decorations, and drinks served. This way, the girls had a hand in controlling the party.
It was also a good system because all of the girls stuck together. The older ones kept an eye on the younger girls. If someone got sick or seemed to be getting into trouble, one of the many sisters would be there to help out.
Also, because it was a "closed party," it was much less likely that the party would get out of hand.
I find it unlikely that many sororities would be willing to throw parties in their well kept homes, but the type of mixers I described include many of the safeguards that this article suggests.
It was also a good system because all of the girls stuck together. The older ones kept an eye on the younger girls. If someone got sick or seemed to be getting into trouble, one of the many sisters would be there to help out.
Also, because it was a "closed party," it was much less likely that the party would get out of hand.
I find it unlikely that many sororities would be willing to throw parties in their well kept homes, but the type of mixers I described include many of the safeguards that this article suggests.
16
Girls will be girls!
Or...how about just don't drink in the first place?
7
Now THAT is a mind-boggling concept for far too many of our presumed "youngest and brightest, the future of our nation."
Pity, that.
Pity, that.
2
Everyone is missing the point!
As with most events, it is the OTHER picture that is the point.
College men are now a minority on campus. Excusing gays and lesbians (no issue there), there are 2 women for every 1 man.
And despite this, we still think colleges are unfair to women and we fund women's centers ad nauseum.
So, there are not enough men.
And those women who want men will now have to pursue them.
We have set up this campus rape hysteria and now practically require signed contracts for sex.
I have always said we are hop skip and jump away from women asking the men out, women paying for the dates, women hunting men and men now sitting on the pedestal.
I LOVE FEMINISM: in their vilification of men, they have set the state.
And now we see sororities, FINALLY, paying their way for the alcohol.
Oh to be in college today: a signed contract and all the oral sex you want. Then, guys, ten years from now: dump the feminist and marry a real smart women who likes men.
Feminism: go figure... they are digging their grave.
As with most events, it is the OTHER picture that is the point.
College men are now a minority on campus. Excusing gays and lesbians (no issue there), there are 2 women for every 1 man.
And despite this, we still think colleges are unfair to women and we fund women's centers ad nauseum.
So, there are not enough men.
And those women who want men will now have to pursue them.
We have set up this campus rape hysteria and now practically require signed contracts for sex.
I have always said we are hop skip and jump away from women asking the men out, women paying for the dates, women hunting men and men now sitting on the pedestal.
I LOVE FEMINISM: in their vilification of men, they have set the state.
And now we see sororities, FINALLY, paying their way for the alcohol.
Oh to be in college today: a signed contract and all the oral sex you want. Then, guys, ten years from now: dump the feminist and marry a real smart women who likes men.
Feminism: go figure... they are digging their grave.
Why do men who strongly dislike women always go on about how women have all of the power? And then they wonder why women won't give them the time of day.
7
Why do feminists keep trying to convince everyone that
Woman == Feminist.
Stop the deceit. Stop the misandry. One can despise feminism and respect, like, love and admire women.
Woman == Feminist.
Stop the deceit. Stop the misandry. One can despise feminism and respect, like, love and admire women.
One can be a feminist, and love men. Heck, it's possible to be both a man and a feminist.
You're practicing a good bit of self-deception.
You're practicing a good bit of self-deception.
1
Go to a school where alcohol is banned on campus and kids are thrown out for bringing it on or showing up drunk. Be highly dubious of any campus where the dormitories smell of weed or where prophylactics are freely available in the health office or in the bathrooms.
4
Find some way to show college bound kids reliance on others for a good time is not sustainable. Like minded friends will find them. My wife and I met in college and neither of us ever had anything to do with Hellenic institutions.
Our culture makes excuses for alcohol and guns. Kids should know early so their choices are made with good information. Frat party by definition is recreation for Caligula personality types and their spectators.
Our culture makes excuses for alcohol and guns. Kids should know early so their choices are made with good information. Frat party by definition is recreation for Caligula personality types and their spectators.
5
You want to reduce sexual assault of women so intoxicated that they are too drunk to consent? Guess what? You don't do it by increasing the places that alcohol is available.
Guys - do not try to sleep with a woman who is drunk. Just don't. If she likes you, she'll be willing when she's sober.
Women - be smart. Don't get drunk. As much as there is a strong belief that you are not responsible for the guy's actions when you are heavily intoxicated, having an ugly, unwanted sexual encounter (i.e. being raped) will alter your life in a tragic way. And when the guy and you are very drunk, he really may not understand that your actions are not consent. It is a grim situation that can't be undone.
On the other hand, being raped at a college party when not drunk or wasted? Very, very, very, very rare.
Don't get drunk. Don't hang with those that do. Be responsible. Parents, talk to your kids. That goes for both sexes.
Guys - do not try to sleep with a woman who is drunk. Just don't. If she likes you, she'll be willing when she's sober.
Women - be smart. Don't get drunk. As much as there is a strong belief that you are not responsible for the guy's actions when you are heavily intoxicated, having an ugly, unwanted sexual encounter (i.e. being raped) will alter your life in a tragic way. And when the guy and you are very drunk, he really may not understand that your actions are not consent. It is a grim situation that can't be undone.
On the other hand, being raped at a college party when not drunk or wasted? Very, very, very, very rare.
Don't get drunk. Don't hang with those that do. Be responsible. Parents, talk to your kids. That goes for both sexes.
5
I think the urge to blame alcohol for all aspects of campus sexual misadventure is a mistake, especially within the campus Greek system. While it no doubt contributes, I'm curious what role is played in the self selection associated with joining the Greek system.
The Greek system is inherently gender segregated into fraternities and sororities and generally seems (despite the "Animal House" reputation) to be a much more politically and socially conservative environment (with obvious variation among colleges).
I wonder if to the extent that sexual assault is a problem in the Greek system itself if it isn't something of a function of women who join the Greek system having already adopted a mindset of "traditional" gender roles which might include deference to men or passivity. In other words, maybe they've already adopted something of a victim mindset.
The Greek system is inherently gender segregated into fraternities and sororities and generally seems (despite the "Animal House" reputation) to be a much more politically and socially conservative environment (with obvious variation among colleges).
I wonder if to the extent that sexual assault is a problem in the Greek system itself if it isn't something of a function of women who join the Greek system having already adopted a mindset of "traditional" gender roles which might include deference to men or passivity. In other words, maybe they've already adopted something of a victim mindset.
3
Whatever the NY Times and some commenters may believe, college-aged people will get drunk. Frequently excessively so. No rule or law or enforcement policy will change this, and making it illegal only makes it more dangerous. Students drank during prohibition, they drank in the 50s, they drank in my time, and they drink today. All strict enforcement does is force it underground.
For instance, I am from Oklahoma and went to Yale. At Yale, there were very liberal alcohol rules (they had been greatly eased following the death of a student whose roommates didn't want to take him to the hospital for fear of getting him in trouble). When someone got excessively drunk, we took them to the school health clinic, where they were watched by medical professionals. They were not arrested or cited for underage drinking. They had to go to counseling afterwards, but their career or school prospects were not harmed.
At home, I went to a few parties at the University of Oklahoma and Oklahoma State, which have punitive alcohol policies. When a kid got dangerously intoxicated, they carried him out to the street, called the ambulance, and then ran back inside. This was clearly dangerous, but they could have been arrested or disciplined if they had done what's right and taken him to the hospital. This is a dumb system and clearly intended to protect the school from liability. And it can ruin otherwise good kids prospects for making a freshman mistake and drinking too much.
For instance, I am from Oklahoma and went to Yale. At Yale, there were very liberal alcohol rules (they had been greatly eased following the death of a student whose roommates didn't want to take him to the hospital for fear of getting him in trouble). When someone got excessively drunk, we took them to the school health clinic, where they were watched by medical professionals. They were not arrested or cited for underage drinking. They had to go to counseling afterwards, but their career or school prospects were not harmed.
At home, I went to a few parties at the University of Oklahoma and Oklahoma State, which have punitive alcohol policies. When a kid got dangerously intoxicated, they carried him out to the street, called the ambulance, and then ran back inside. This was clearly dangerous, but they could have been arrested or disciplined if they had done what's right and taken him to the hospital. This is a dumb system and clearly intended to protect the school from liability. And it can ruin otherwise good kids prospects for making a freshman mistake and drinking too much.
7
Oh please -these students are not drinking because they like the way alcohol tastes but they are drinking primarily to lower their social inhibitions rape risk notwithstanding. And why amidst a sea of underemployed peers do they need this absurd crutch to befriend or woo each other I don't know but that is what we need to explore and address a responsible society.
And I do think underaged drinking and rape go together - it's the tragedy of the common scofflaws - when kids are willing to break some laws to get smashed and act with impunity there will always be some of them who will feel like pushing their own entitled agendas under the guise of acceptable high spirits. The commons here is no pasture but freedom.
And I do think underaged drinking and rape go together - it's the tragedy of the common scofflaws - when kids are willing to break some laws to get smashed and act with impunity there will always be some of them who will feel like pushing their own entitled agendas under the guise of acceptable high spirits. The commons here is no pasture but freedom.
5
How about getting rid of the utterly moronic Greek societies which do absolutely nothing to advance education?
These perpetuate the idea that college is a party - with unsurprising results - more people with degrees that are merely wallpaper on a mountain of ignorance.
These perpetuate the idea that college is a party - with unsurprising results - more people with degrees that are merely wallpaper on a mountain of ignorance.
14
Wow, this comment is actually a perfect example of the ignorance that you feel Greek life displays. All fraternties and sororities have GPA requirements, scholarship chairs, and study hours. I have several sisters who have been kicked out of my organization because they were on academic probation within our sorority (a GPA less than a 2.5, much higher than the university mandated probation). I have yet to find a university where the university average GPA is higher than the Greek average GPA.
3
I was in sorority at the Univ. of Ill. in the late 60's. The GPA of the women in the sororities were better than those of the women not in the sororities. To my knowledge over 70% of the members of my sorority went on to get advanced degrees in such fields as law, medicine, psychology, education and business. They have all become valuable, stable and contributing members of society.
1
I can tell you first hand - the no alcohol at sororitiy houses memo never made its way to the SUNY school I graduated from in 2000. That being said, the sorority parties were definitely less Animal House than the fraternities. (my own included)
4
Does anyone believe that a sorority party with alcohol would be like a book club meeting with a few glasses of sherry? There will be men -- and the dangers they present -- just like at frat parties. The problem is that many younger Americans don't know how to drink socially. They consume alcohol like tourists at an all-you-can eat Las Vegas shrimp buffet. Maybe if we taught our kids to drink socially before they go to college, and set a better example for them with our own drinking habits, they might learn to handle situations where alcohol is freely available without having to binge on it.
10
As a Dad with three daughters, I am concerned that some colleges are 'not transparent' when it comes to assaults against women. It may surprise parents to know that some 'crime statistics' are not revealed or delayed by college leaders. The Obama administration is currently investigating a number of colleges on this issue.
The New York Times should be writing about University Presidents (and their role in this issue) and why the Justice Department has to pressure these academics to do the right thing. These sorority women better stay in their houses because their college leaders are not doing all they can to protect them and reporting when they come up short.
The New York Times should be writing about University Presidents (and their role in this issue) and why the Justice Department has to pressure these academics to do the right thing. These sorority women better stay in their houses because their college leaders are not doing all they can to protect them and reporting when they come up short.
2
I'm not in favor of campus rape, but why should university presidents be spending their time on this issue if the rape is not occurring in or on property the university owns? Aren't most of these greek orgs in privately owned property? If they are not, then there is an easy solution -- shut them all down. A university should not be wasting its time overseeing social clubs like this. If students want these things let them do it off campus on private property and call the local police if they have problems.
1
"students in fraternities were significantly more likely to have committed rape than non-Greek men.
Surely you mean "non-frat men"?
Surely you mean "non-frat men"?
2
That's exactly what it says.
2
No, that's not "exactly" what it says. It actually says "non-Greek" men, which is to say "men not from Greece." Definitely a sloppy entry in the style sheet for that.
1
Or, of course, another option would be not drinking.
4
I imagine that many of the young women are underage, which, therefore, makes their consumption of intoxicating beverages against the law in most states.
4
I heard about the new rules at UVA in an NPR story yesterday and they sound imminently reasonable: serve beer and wine, and if mixed drinks are served, only use licensed bartenders and have no "trashcan punch" that makes it hard to know how much alcohol is consumed in the fruity cups of brew. Several senior members of the house pledge to stay sober and police who goes upstairs. This won't solve all of the problems, but would go a long way to help.
9
All I can say is that I'm glad to have commuted to the School of Visual Arts at a time before the school offered student housing. There wasn't any of this, that I remember. Not much student social life either, but that's not why I went to college.
4
I think it's great that campus rape is getting so much attention these days---hopefully the first step in improving the climate for women on campus. The role of alcohol is a frightening one. Has anyone looked at data from continental Europe I wonder? The way college students consume alcohol in the US is quite sick. French kids don't drink themselves into a stupor to have fun at a party, etc. I wonder if we didn't have such a problematic relationship with alcohol whether campus rape would still be a major issue. What are these kids so freaked out about that they need to abuse a substance to be able to engage with the opposite sex socially? What's it all about? So no... I do not think sororities serving alcohol is the solution! The answer lie within the students, not within their cups. I remember many years ago, after growing up in New York City where we didn't seem to drink that much, going to college and being just shocked that people had to "get wasted" to enjoy a party. Still don't understand what that's about. And I think until we get to the bottom of that, we won't really solve this rape problem.
5
Thank you for a rare dose of clarity and insight.
The problem certainly is in the individual rather than the cup.
I've observed two primary factors: a gross immaturity in the participants, and America's bizarre relationship with alcohol -- puritanical from cradle until (arbitrarily, really) 21 . . . then, in effect, open the flood gates!
The problem certainly is in the individual rather than the cup.
I've observed two primary factors: a gross immaturity in the participants, and America's bizarre relationship with alcohol -- puritanical from cradle until (arbitrarily, really) 21 . . . then, in effect, open the flood gates!
The root cause of the problem of sexual misconduct on college campuses is a culture that glorifies promiscuity and drunkenness. Both men and women participate in the maintenance of this culture, and college administrators do little about it for fear of offending their "customers" (formerly known as college students). No one will make a serious dent in this problem until this root cause is acknowledged and addressed.
10
I think it's time for the dinosaur Greek system to just go away. My personal experience with fraternities is that most of them are just college drinking gangs, membership tribes for alcohol consumption, with rooms. The good works performed by some of them could best be done in myriad other ways now. What is being learned and taught there?
I also wonder how much the non-drinking sorority members like the idea of hosting parties in their home, and how many will simply leave because of all the attendant issues regarding drinking parties. I would like to have heard from some of them in the article.
I also wonder how much the non-drinking sorority members like the idea of hosting parties in their home, and how many will simply leave because of all the attendant issues regarding drinking parties. I would like to have heard from some of them in the article.
5
When I attended college many years ago, my observation was that there were kids who didn't join a sorority/fraternity and there were kids who did. My perception was that the kids who got into sororities/fraternities perceived themselves as more socially elite than those who didn't get in, or who chose not to try.
Has anyone studied whether part of the issue could entail cultural differences between those who join Greek organizations and those who don't? For example, do fraternity men perceive themselves are more entitled (than non-fraternity men) to take what they want by whatever means it requires? Do sorority girls feel more social pressure to go along with what men want? I apologize if these questions are offensive to anyone, but I honestly wonder.
Has anyone studied whether part of the issue could entail cultural differences between those who join Greek organizations and those who don't? For example, do fraternity men perceive themselves are more entitled (than non-fraternity men) to take what they want by whatever means it requires? Do sorority girls feel more social pressure to go along with what men want? I apologize if these questions are offensive to anyone, but I honestly wonder.
8
Many of the comments here remind me of the abortion debate; commentors telling college students to drink responsibly or not drink at all. Go to college for an education. Many sound "shocked" that kids are getting drunk and acting irresponsibly or illegally. The solution for abortion? Don't have sex. Act responsibly, etc, etc. But the reality is people have sex and women end up with unwanted pregnancies. And at colleges, kids drink too much and women sometimes get attacked. Shifting parties to the sororities seems to me to be a good idea if for no other reason than a co-ed can lock herself in her room to emphasize what NO means. Just as distributing condoms and insurance-funded birth control pills seem to be a effective way of preventing pregnancies. Sorority-based parties does seem to level the playing field somewhat.
4
There is an absurd amount of condescension in the comments for this article. I feel as though many people must have lost perspective of what it was like to be a college-age adult. While legally we call this adulthood, the abrupt transition into complete autonomy is no easy task to handle. There is an overwhelming urge to get out and meet people, have experiences (drinking included), define one's own values, and generally explore.
To pass judgement such harsh judgement on the decisions of young people is downright hypocritical - for everyone. To get wrapped-up in a culture - party culture, study culture, coffeeshop culture, nerd culture, etc... is part of defining yourself. We should all be so lucky to make the right choice, but just because you did doesn't allow you to be holier then thou or dismissive of those who don't. Especially when it's the safety of individuals.
The idea of helping shape the values of these cultures by changing venues is a powerful one, and far more productive then wanting to change human nature or our universal ability to make poor choices.
To pass judgement such harsh judgement on the decisions of young people is downright hypocritical - for everyone. To get wrapped-up in a culture - party culture, study culture, coffeeshop culture, nerd culture, etc... is part of defining yourself. We should all be so lucky to make the right choice, but just because you did doesn't allow you to be holier then thou or dismissive of those who don't. Especially when it's the safety of individuals.
The idea of helping shape the values of these cultures by changing venues is a powerful one, and far more productive then wanting to change human nature or our universal ability to make poor choices.
23
I agree with you. Humans do not evolve rapidly. Changing a social culture may take less time but it requires the impetus of someone like Mao or Stalin and we really don't want any of that in the world any longer. The only advantage I see in either a Fraternity or a Sorority is that it allows all age groups attending the college to form a bond of trust, where the older members can help the younger members through the new different experiences they are going to be curious about.
Agreeing with you, however, doesn't mean I think we should sit back and be more relaxed. I also think that if it is perfectly alright for a male then it is also perfectly alright for a female. That sort of thing, though, starts at home. For example, my son for whatever reason decided it was perfectly alright that he walk through our home in his underwear. My daughters were outraged. Would my son listen to them? Nope. But he did stop the same day I walked through the living room to the kitchen in my underwear. Nothing more needed to be said and neither he nor I walked through the house in only underwear.
Children should be taught that alcohol and drugs are not just going to change their physical abilities and performance but also that irresponsible decisions made under alcohol's or drugs' influence are likely to have lift altering impact that will change a person's entire life.
Agreeing with you, however, doesn't mean I think we should sit back and be more relaxed. I also think that if it is perfectly alright for a male then it is also perfectly alright for a female. That sort of thing, though, starts at home. For example, my son for whatever reason decided it was perfectly alright that he walk through our home in his underwear. My daughters were outraged. Would my son listen to them? Nope. But he did stop the same day I walked through the living room to the kitchen in my underwear. Nothing more needed to be said and neither he nor I walked through the house in only underwear.
Children should be taught that alcohol and drugs are not just going to change their physical abilities and performance but also that irresponsible decisions made under alcohol's or drugs' influence are likely to have lift altering impact that will change a person's entire life.
There are two problems apparent here. The first being the stigma coming from a Patriarchy: Men drink alcohol while polite and virginal women sip tea. The second being reality based upon a democratic understanding: equality.
I wasn't aware that sororities couldn't have alcohol at their parties. I thought we were far beyond that. It takes me back to the 70's & 80's when women had quilt nights where sweet desserts and teas were served while men had Monday Night Football parties where alcohol and barbeque or salty snacks were served. We are still doing that? Really?!
First of all, I always thought all this Fraternity and Sorority stuff reeked of the Boy vs the Girl Scout stuff. I reasoned that if I attended college I didn't need to be in a club and I could find my own friends. But if we are not going to be able to get away from that reputation-by-association sort of think then perhaps we can at least see association does offer some security.
It seems that males are always going to believe they have a great need to spread their seed broadly across the field and that females are going to be a bit more discerning. Then we need to encourage the field by giving them the opportunity to learn value among their chosen associations. In this case a Sorority.
I wasn't aware that sororities couldn't have alcohol at their parties. I thought we were far beyond that. It takes me back to the 70's & 80's when women had quilt nights where sweet desserts and teas were served while men had Monday Night Football parties where alcohol and barbeque or salty snacks were served. We are still doing that? Really?!
First of all, I always thought all this Fraternity and Sorority stuff reeked of the Boy vs the Girl Scout stuff. I reasoned that if I attended college I didn't need to be in a club and I could find my own friends. But if we are not going to be able to get away from that reputation-by-association sort of think then perhaps we can at least see association does offer some security.
It seems that males are always going to believe they have a great need to spread their seed broadly across the field and that females are going to be a bit more discerning. Then we need to encourage the field by giving them the opportunity to learn value among their chosen associations. In this case a Sorority.
3
What outsiders to the experience fail to see is that there is a lot of pressure on fraternity men to throw parties with lots of alcohol. It is a reality that fraternities are legitimately snubbed socially if they do not provide copious amounts of alcohol in party environments. Sorority women typically are the main operators in creating the social hierarchy of Greek systems. Women for years have not been liable for their own social behavior and have been reaping the benefits. For example, Fraternities who strictly adhere to risk management protocols by their national organizations often struggle to recruit men because women refuse to socialize with them when they can get a "better experience" elsewhere. I've advised multiple organizations that struggle with concept of providing alcohol illegally in order to level the social playing field of their campus. They take high levels of liability in order to mix with specific sororities, who wouldn't mix with them earlier. So yes, allowing sorority chapters alcohol would level the playing field socially, but sexual assault will still be blamed on fraternities no matter the venue.
13
I really feel no pity or concern for the social pressure on fraternities to serve a lot of alcohol. That's just too bad. If the girls don't like you because you're not a binge drinking alcoholic, I don't feel sorry for you, either.
I can't believe there is a 'consultant' that helps fraternities figure out how to make girls like them and how to serve more alcohol.
Greek culture isn't real. The thought of a 'socially level playing field' is ludicrous and has never, and will never, exist in a free society where 99% of the income goes to 1% of the people. Your concerns are meaningless to anyone other than yourself.
I can't believe there is a 'consultant' that helps fraternities figure out how to make girls like them and how to serve more alcohol.
Greek culture isn't real. The thought of a 'socially level playing field' is ludicrous and has never, and will never, exist in a free society where 99% of the income goes to 1% of the people. Your concerns are meaningless to anyone other than yourself.
2
When you add alcohol you add an unknown.
Things can go amiss rapidly.
Advice to the young:
If you want to stay away from lawyers and jails, don't drink, don't do drugs and don't own a gun.
Things can go amiss rapidly.
Advice to the young:
If you want to stay away from lawyers and jails, don't drink, don't do drugs and don't own a gun.
2
How about just enforcing the current drinking laws? So underage college drinking becomes serious predatory drinking which becomes felonious assault.
How about if college campuses were not exempt from the law that states no one can drink until they're 21? Generally Freshman are 17 - 18, Sophomores 18 - 19, Juniors 19 - 20, Seniors 20 - 21. How is it all these underage girls and boys are immune from the basic drinking laws because they are privileged to be in college? Drink under 21, probation and expulsion. OH and who the HECK is selling all this liquor to children?? Or which ADULTS 21 year old are providing it to children in their frats?? POLICE the colleges, stop rape!!!
How about if college campuses were not exempt from the law that states no one can drink until they're 21? Generally Freshman are 17 - 18, Sophomores 18 - 19, Juniors 19 - 20, Seniors 20 - 21. How is it all these underage girls and boys are immune from the basic drinking laws because they are privileged to be in college? Drink under 21, probation and expulsion. OH and who the HECK is selling all this liquor to children?? Or which ADULTS 21 year old are providing it to children in their frats?? POLICE the colleges, stop rape!!!
3
When did alcohol and/or other drugs become an OK thing to do?......or a "normal thing to do ?
Sounds like college (higher education?) is not a safe place to send "of age" children.
Sounds like college (higher education?) is not a safe place to send "of age" children.
2
Perhaps we've unwittingly changed the meaning of "higher" in this context.
or you could not have anything to do with Sororities or Fraternities !! Novel idea...Aside from learning while at college,you don't need to join in this ridiculous club!
1
Obvious solution. Why did no one think of it before?
One would also normally expect hostesses to pay for all alcohol consumed. That might cut way down on how much got served.
One would also normally expect hostesses to pay for all alcohol consumed. That might cut way down on how much got served.
1
I went to college in North Carolina in the 80's. Vibrant social scene - especially Greek. However we did not have houses - I always lived in a dorm and never roomed with a sorority sister. People from other schools thought that was weird - we thought it was better. Now I am sure of it!
Also, in NC at that time, the drinking age was 18 for beer and wine but 21 for hard liquor. So, most people were legal and few were doing shots. I only saw "punch" ONCE at a fraternity party. Campus security could be at the parties b/c serving beer was legal and permitted.
Although probably some bad things happened that I didn't know about, I never once heard anyone mention sexual assault on campus during my 4 years in school there. I believe both factors mentioned above contributed to this. While I doubt any college will dismantle its Greek housing system, I do agree with the posters who urge a revisit of the drinking age. Perhaps a return to wine/beer only until age 21 could be a solution.
Also, in NC at that time, the drinking age was 18 for beer and wine but 21 for hard liquor. So, most people were legal and few were doing shots. I only saw "punch" ONCE at a fraternity party. Campus security could be at the parties b/c serving beer was legal and permitted.
Although probably some bad things happened that I didn't know about, I never once heard anyone mention sexual assault on campus during my 4 years in school there. I believe both factors mentioned above contributed to this. While I doubt any college will dismantle its Greek housing system, I do agree with the posters who urge a revisit of the drinking age. Perhaps a return to wine/beer only until age 21 could be a solution.
5
Are college students so stiff and unnatural that they cannot function without alcohol? Is drunkenness a way of expressing ideas, or letting people know who you really are?
Our nation has become so alcohol obsessed, that we don't even realize that it is abnormal to get drunk.
Perhaps, this is due entirely, to the sheer "throw weight" of the massive propaganda that is endlessly showered on us, courtesy of the brewing and distillation industries.
At this point, you might think I'm going off topic, but actually, it is our universities that are going off topic - students are supposed to be sent there to learn, not to fall in the gutter with another student on top of them.
Students should be concentrating on their studies; if that fails, the option of abusing alcohol will still be open to them - it's one of the few things that an older person can do as well as a young person.
Our nation has become so alcohol obsessed, that we don't even realize that it is abnormal to get drunk.
Perhaps, this is due entirely, to the sheer "throw weight" of the massive propaganda that is endlessly showered on us, courtesy of the brewing and distillation industries.
At this point, you might think I'm going off topic, but actually, it is our universities that are going off topic - students are supposed to be sent there to learn, not to fall in the gutter with another student on top of them.
Students should be concentrating on their studies; if that fails, the option of abusing alcohol will still be open to them - it's one of the few things that an older person can do as well as a young person.
5
Yes. And I know many adults - parents, even - in many parts of the country where there's nothing to do on the weekends except go to the local bar to watch "the game" (football) who drink to excess. And then drive home! It definitely is an American pastime, sadly.
The puritanical anti-alcohol laws are a result of the suburbs. When people lived in cities, if they had 1 too many, they'd walk it off or take a cab / bus. The problem is that doesn't work in a car based society. Hopefully with the advent of driverless cars we can repeal some of these laws and not make alcohol this forbidden fruit.
The structure where the fraternities have the alcohol and therefore the power is a big contributor to the problems of alcohol. Many of the deaths due to alcohol are related to pledging process. Students take the abuse because they want to be a fraternity brother and have that "social power". If all students could get alcohol easily they would be more likely to hang out with people who are real friends and not worry about having to be cool to join a fraternity.
Pretending that the prohibition on alcohol for those under 21 is effective is a joke. It is merely a question of who has it and therefore has the "social power".
The structure where the fraternities have the alcohol and therefore the power is a big contributor to the problems of alcohol. Many of the deaths due to alcohol are related to pledging process. Students take the abuse because they want to be a fraternity brother and have that "social power". If all students could get alcohol easily they would be more likely to hang out with people who are real friends and not worry about having to be cool to join a fraternity.
Pretending that the prohibition on alcohol for those under 21 is effective is a joke. It is merely a question of who has it and therefore has the "social power".
3
Why don't the sororities offer parties without alcohol? The only guys who come will be those who actually want to talk to the young women and get to know them.
Those students who prefer loud, drunk and stupid will still have the frat houses, but who is creating a place for people who went to college to learn and discuss ideas with their friends rather than to get wasted?
Those students who prefer loud, drunk and stupid will still have the frat houses, but who is creating a place for people who went to college to learn and discuss ideas with their friends rather than to get wasted?
7
As a number of commenters have pointed out, the federal government exacerbated the problem of binge drinking in college when it forced states to move the legal age to 21. The politicians responsible for ignoring the unintended consequences of this irrational approach should be held accountable.
6
Or you could just serve soft drinks and have parties that you didn't have to get sloshed to enjoy. I know, I know. That is as old-fashioned a concept as going to college to study and actually learn something. But if you have to get drunk or high to enjoy time with your friends, you need different friends.
15
Just a thought: What if Greek parties were video-taped? With a live feed to, say, Facebook or AA? It might cut down on acts of stupidness.
1
Recently at Princeton University an intoxicated girl was photographed publically performing oral sex on a boy at an eating club (Princeton's version of a fraternity) and the picture was transmitted to someone else. Neither the girl nor the boy involved were disciplined by the university (of course). The photographer was. Because it was like...you know...he was taking such horrible advantage of this poor incapacitated girl.
2
How about parties with no alcohol, given that most of the participants are under 21 anyway! Novel Concept.
4
I like the idea that college is for serious students who go there to study hard and learn so they can get a good job and have a good life. But many parents spend 60k a year for their kid to get drunk. How smart is that.
11
As a sorority woman, I think that allowing parties to be thrown by sororities with alcohol allowed is a good idea. Frat houses usually give alcohol for free to girls, that's why girls go to those parties most often. This is an easier way for fraterinty members to slip the date rape drugs to girls. If sorority women are able to throw parties they will be able to control the alcohol and this may lessen the number of sexual assaults on campuses.
18
This is all part of a national trend of helicopter parenting that wants our children to be supervised, protected, chaperoned everywhere they go in life. People, when your children leave for college, they are adults now. Let them make their mistakes and let them live life. Getting drunk, getting laid, getting propositioned or getting rejected is all part of growing up. When I was in college, I wrote letters to my parents once a week and told them what they wanted to hear. I hope god gives me wisdom to accept the same from my children maybe in text message form.
3
Ditching the stifling influence of a national sorority has nothing to do with helicopter parenting. It's nearly the opposite of helicopter parenting -- there's no national organization to tell you what do in your house. Some of the local organizations in this article have been around for decades and originated long before the "helicopter" idea.
3
I am a current fraternity member at Georgia Tech in Atlanta, GA., and frankly, the entire enterprise of Greek life is controlled by the insurance companies, at least from a national perspective. Sororities aren't (generally) allowed to have parties that fall outside of their strict rules (that put all of the liability on the vendor). Therefore, when girls go out on campus, all liability is on the fraternity's insurance, the same way that alcohol is generally bought by them, etc.
6
As a class assignment we were asked to read an article and comment. We decided this was a great topic to discuss in our group because we are college students. We agree that alcohol should be in familiar places to feel safer at parties, however, we feel that isn't the biggest problem. Responsibility is the issue at hand. Use the buddy system, know your limits with alcohol or avoid it altogether, and know where the exits are and how to get out of those situations. Also, just general education about alcohol and rape.
Honestly, on some campuses this wouldn't make a difference just because of the geography of things (fraternities closer to where most students live). Plus, there are already parties that are run by women all over campuses (even by sorority women who don't live in the houses) and they are no less susceptible to predators. Plus, sororities have a large luxury element, who wants to pay huge amounts to live in a house that gets trashed by parties--parties which would likely only play into the negative stereotypes surrounding individual chapters and sorority life as a whole. Could this help? Perhaps slightly, but realistically we need to look at the cause of the problem not the venue. Young men in our culture are not taught often enough that A. women are humans, not objects, B. taking advantage of or coercing a woman into a sexual act is unacceptable (and that firm consent "Yes" is needed...this isn't just "no means no" its "without a yes, don't"), C. No one who is drunk can consent to sex (including them), D. they do not have to only seek out sex/take sex in any situation it's physically possible to get it in order to be men, E. they will be punished for rape/sexual assault. These are lessons that don't happen because the media, the legal system, and misogynists of all kinds spew the opposite lessons--we need to fight that.
3
How about no alcohol on a college campus at all? No, too abstract a concept.
1
I agree with you, Jeffery!
Sadly this sounds like the classic "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" strategy. It seems to me lifting the alcohol ban in sororities will only exacerbate the problem, not help it. Why not instead have the national fraternity organizations follow the sororities lead and ban alcohol at frat parties too? And before you start telling me I'm not living in the real world, I once was a college student too....I never attended a frat or sorority party yet still managed to find ways to consume alcohol both on and off campus.
17
Excellent idea!
What an utterly stupid idea. College women need to experience REAL life, drinking in a co-ed environment where they must learn restraint, how to interact with frat boys, how to deflect, how to walk away, how to drink responsibly. To cloister themselves in their own dorm to drink will prepare them for nothing.
Real life brings about all kinds of obstacles. The younger someone, man or woman, learns to deal with those realities, the better he or she will do in the workplace where real life rears its ugly head every day. Be smart. But be prepared.
Real life brings about all kinds of obstacles. The younger someone, man or woman, learns to deal with those realities, the better he or she will do in the workplace where real life rears its ugly head every day. Be smart. But be prepared.
4
What makes you think frat guys don't go to drink at sorority parties? The article said nothing about cloistering in a dorm room. It's about sorority houses becoming true counterparts to fraternity houses: control of the physical space is important.
Oxymoron: Drink. Responsibly.
2
When I attended college in NYC, the legal drinking age was 18 -- but we didn't drink much. I had a bottle of cherry brandy to pour over vanilla ice cream. I did not drink beer and one Manhattan practically sent me reeling onto a subway track. I made punch for parties (senior year)-- limiting the amount of alcohol as the evening went on until the last batch of punch was fruit juice and gingerale. In Spain, freshman summer, wine was served with gaseosa -- lemon flavored soda.
Usually, we barely had $$ for food, much less booze. One frat party and I was through with that tawdry scene. Maybe the drinking age should be lowered. But perhaps the number of dead teens on the highway is down because of the legislation. (Of course we could have MUCH more public transportation in all the places where it has disappeared since the 1950s!) I do look forward to google cars, buses.
Usually, we barely had $$ for food, much less booze. One frat party and I was through with that tawdry scene. Maybe the drinking age should be lowered. But perhaps the number of dead teens on the highway is down because of the legislation. (Of course we could have MUCH more public transportation in all the places where it has disappeared since the 1950s!) I do look forward to google cars, buses.
2
So, even more opportunities for underage drinking?
What a spectacular idea by the future leaders of America!
What a spectacular idea by the future leaders of America!
2
A simple solution...
Why not ban frats that have been breeding this alcohol fueled culture where rapes are prevalent.
Why not ban frats that have been breeding this alcohol fueled culture where rapes are prevalent.
5
The main argument against this in the sorority community seems to be about cost. Why are the fraternities happy to pay those same costs? They are buying the right to say "this is our house, we paid for this beer, if you come to our party it will be on our terms." Isn't it worth it to the sororities to take this power away from the fraternities and claim if for themselves?
6
How tragic that (younger) people seem to feel the need to get drunk more than ever to socialy blend in. Seems like we haven't advanced at all in our socio-psychological behavior. Whatever happened to accountability? Has it become vestigial in our society?
2
It just seems that the underlying assumption is that all drunk college girls that have sex are being raped. Not so! There may be plenty of remorse the next day, but as I recall college days, it wasn't against their will. I'm sure there are incidences of rape that occur but please! 1 in, I don't know, some very large number. I'm tired of reading these articles as if the girls have no clue what to expect and are innocent as lambs. They know what they're getting into. How insulting to America's young woman that the prevailing assumption is how naive they are.
3
I totally agree. I have four sons and have to constantly warn them in High
School and College about the very aggressive young woman who pursued them.
Texting, emailing, calling all the time.
All of these articles seem to think that woman are innocent children who need to be told what to do. Young woman today are just the opposite. They have grown up with opportunities, sports and schooling equal to young men.
Why is it that only woman have to give consent to sex and not men? From what I have seen of young woman today they are equally capable and culpable of plying a young man full of booze and taking advantage! Unfortunately, most men would be too embarrassed to admit that a woman had taken advantage. Both sexes should need to give consent and if one is too drunk for consent most likely the other is too drunk also. Then who is being raped? Both are culpable.
Woman are not naive stupid children!
School and College about the very aggressive young woman who pursued them.
Texting, emailing, calling all the time.
All of these articles seem to think that woman are innocent children who need to be told what to do. Young woman today are just the opposite. They have grown up with opportunities, sports and schooling equal to young men.
Why is it that only woman have to give consent to sex and not men? From what I have seen of young woman today they are equally capable and culpable of plying a young man full of booze and taking advantage! Unfortunately, most men would be too embarrassed to admit that a woman had taken advantage. Both sexes should need to give consent and if one is too drunk for consent most likely the other is too drunk also. Then who is being raped? Both are culpable.
Woman are not naive stupid children!
1
I'd like to add one more thing: when I was a GWU student in the 70s, there was so much to do off campus, unlike colleges in the middle of nowhere - I have fond memories of going with similar minded students to nightclubs (mainly jazz) like cellar door, blues alley, Harold's Rogue and Jar, the Etc. club; going to Georgetown or the bars close to campus, and a lot of these places had dancing from standard 60s style to disco. Why would I or anyone want to hang out in a fraternity?
2
It's unfortunate that alcohol is considered a rite of passage for our youth. It's normal for the young to separate from their parents or thumb their nose at authority figures in an attempt to establish their own identity. Yet finding other ways to achieve that developmental goal other than through mind altering substances--which impair both male and female judgement that has not yet matured--would probably end or greatly reduce associated sexual abuse. But the big question is how to make a change in something almost sacrosanct on college campuses and has been for eons. It's doubtful sorority parties would help.
3
An international student from Argentina once asked me what is up with Americans and drinking? Why do they drink themselves under the table every time they drink? It made no sense to him and doesn't to me. Americans either try to ban alcohol or over indulge in it. Fraternities are the problem. The entitlement, privilege and power that goes with fraternities, mixed with alcohol, are a recipe for disaster. Fraternities aren't the only place where binge drinking takes place but it gives that behavior legitimacy.
46
This is the key issue. It absolutely freaky that these kids cannot enjoy each others' company without abusing alcohol.
1
YOu should have explained that it is the American way.
After many decades in this country, I, too, still wonder why the binge drinking. I have heard adults with responsible jobs lament that they won't have any fun if they find out the gathering is alcohol-free. It seems the only way to have fun is to be "buzzed" at a minimum. I find this attitude mostly among whites. At gatherings with Blacks or Latinos I have attended, good music and fun people are the must-haves. The party will be just as much fun whether alcohol is present or not. There are, on occasion, one or two people who embarrass themselves because they had too much to drink, but the parties are not held for the primary purpose of drinking. Big difference.
2
Remember the power of Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) and the change in culture their movement created in society? When young people are still in the process and learning and growing they need limits on their behaviors to save them from traumatic experiences. Alcohol has a strong influence on judgement which is why the penalties against drunk driving are so strong. This is a good sign that sorority members are being protected against the dangerous mix and alcohol, partying and an environment conducive from a range of issues including regrets the morning after to actual
sexual assault.
sexual assault.
1
Sad - I went to GWU in the 70s, and my recollection is that the frats and sororities were not very popular; our attention was more on the counter culture, anti-war demonstrations and other social issues. I recall setting foot in one frat a couple of times, and only because we knew one guy there; I went to parties in dorms or to bars (beer and wine were 18 at the time) but never to a frat party. I still find the whole Greek system, as it is, quite silly, but I do understand that for some, a weak Greek system is a liability in attracting students and girls gone wild crews - such is the nature of the university these days.
2
Females who wanted to stay sober during a party, found themselves raped anyway because of their soft drinks being spiked with Rohypnol or other drugs. Here in CA, they've realigned offenses so that felonies are now misdemeanors. That is to say, that if a man is caught with Rohypnol, it's no longer a felony. And although the intent of possession of the drug is clear, and a crime can be prevented by incarcerating such an individual, accountability and consequences are diminished.
Therefore, the protection of females is too.
Why this ban is directed at females is also clear, the onus of responsibility for being raped is put on the victim. Plus ca change, plus le meme chose
Therefore, the protection of females is too.
Why this ban is directed at females is also clear, the onus of responsibility for being raped is put on the victim. Plus ca change, plus le meme chose
9
In many of the comments for this article as well. Rape is "a girl's problem" because all rapists are apparently women. The mind, it sadly boggles.
2
I actually went to GW, graduating fairly recently, and attended plenty of frat parties there, although I never joined a fraternity. They were a good time to a freshman new to college, but eventually became kind of boring and exclusive; the guys were nice enough to guests but there was definitely a marked difference between those who belonged to the fraternities and those who didn't. I could definitely see how being part of the frat and living in the house would contribute to a sense of power in that social scenario.
That being said, I never once witnessed or heard of anything that I could characterize as sexual assault. All the guys knew their boundaries and were respectful of the women, who generally were the most trashed ones at the parties. It makes me wonder who commissioned these "studies" characterizing frat members as more likely to be rapists; perhaps people like Sabrina Erdely, who had a pre-conceived bias against fraternities and constructed a narrative to fit that bias? Until I see unbiased studies (i.e. not conducted by feminist organizations) I'm inclined to doubt the veracity of anyone making claims about college sexual assault.
That being said, I never once witnessed or heard of anything that I could characterize as sexual assault. All the guys knew their boundaries and were respectful of the women, who generally were the most trashed ones at the parties. It makes me wonder who commissioned these "studies" characterizing frat members as more likely to be rapists; perhaps people like Sabrina Erdely, who had a pre-conceived bias against fraternities and constructed a narrative to fit that bias? Until I see unbiased studies (i.e. not conducted by feminist organizations) I'm inclined to doubt the veracity of anyone making claims about college sexual assault.
11
Defining 'sexual assault' downwards is also part of why these statistics look so alarming, as it includes 'unwanted touching', which can be a man putting his arm over a woman's shoulder, basically making a pass, the women rejecting his advance and then insisting she was 'sexually assaulted'.
1
Are you serious here? Plato's Allegory of the Cave would be a good read for you.
3
I went to college before the National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 was passed, when the drinking age was 18 in most states. Since that bill was passed, binge drinking has become far more prevalent on college campuses. Because they are illegal, parties have moved out of dorms and onto private off-campus venues willing to take the risk of being found serving alcohol to minors. Students can no longer just have a drink or two and then go back to their room or walk a short distance back to their dorm when they are tired; they frequently have to wait for their group or a ride to return home. I believe that much of the binge drinking is directly due to the raised drinking age and the illusion of scarcity that it fosters.
When I was a student, I went to dorm parties where we wore wristbands to show we were 18 and frequently were issued two drink tickets at the door. Sure, we had some problems with kids drinking too much or getting in trouble, but it seems that the problem has grown exponentially since that time.
When I was a student, I went to dorm parties where we wore wristbands to show we were 18 and frequently were issued two drink tickets at the door. Sure, we had some problems with kids drinking too much or getting in trouble, but it seems that the problem has grown exponentially since that time.
45
When I was in college back in the Dark Ages, there were no parties allowed in fraternity houses, and the sororities didn't even have houses - just a meeting room. But there were parties - PLENTY of parties! And all were in obscure locations - sleazy places that were willing to rent to college students and weren't any too particular about what was served at those parties (the Greeks brought in their own booze).
Yes, there was a LOT of drunkenness but very few girls got wasted like the boys did. And I can never remember of ANY unwanted advances made on any girl. How we all got back to the dorms without being killed is another issue as no one even thought about the idea of a "designated driver" (this was the early 1960's).
The difference today is that the girls now get drunk, too. The girls also have sex with lots and lots of boys on campus - often having previously had sex with a boy who is now raping them as they didn't want sex this time.
Alcohol plays a HUGE part in this problem, but so do the girls of today. When everyone knows that a girl often "hooks up" with lots of guys, dumb old boys make the assumption that it's free for the taking. A drunk girl is often a girl whose behavior is highly uninhibited and provocative. Dumb guys think this means she's available.
In addition to boys being taught that NO means NO, girls also need to be taught that giving out a message of availability and then not really meaning it, is not a smart thing to do.
Yes, there was a LOT of drunkenness but very few girls got wasted like the boys did. And I can never remember of ANY unwanted advances made on any girl. How we all got back to the dorms without being killed is another issue as no one even thought about the idea of a "designated driver" (this was the early 1960's).
The difference today is that the girls now get drunk, too. The girls also have sex with lots and lots of boys on campus - often having previously had sex with a boy who is now raping them as they didn't want sex this time.
Alcohol plays a HUGE part in this problem, but so do the girls of today. When everyone knows that a girl often "hooks up" with lots of guys, dumb old boys make the assumption that it's free for the taking. A drunk girl is often a girl whose behavior is highly uninhibited and provocative. Dumb guys think this means she's available.
In addition to boys being taught that NO means NO, girls also need to be taught that giving out a message of availability and then not really meaning it, is not a smart thing to do.
Men think anything is "signaling availability", including being out on the street minding one's own business.
When men stop raping women, you can call it a "women's problem" but not until then.
When men stop raping women, you can call it a "women's problem" but not until then.
1
I did my undergrad and first masters at Australia National University in the mid-70's. "Legal age" was a bit difficult to know, it was 18, but anyone who could hold a glass seemed to be drinking. We drank ALL the time, even at lunch time during classes; but we didn't get sloppy drunk very often.
There was no greek system and you didn't get scholarships to play rugby or cricket. The university didn't function as a 'farm league' for professional sports. Everybody just studied.
I never remember going to a party, anywhere, where I felt at risk for being an American–and that could be a real problem in some places.
I am not sure there was less drinking (Australia was/is a drinking culture.). There weren't wild parties to go with it and no places like frat houses. In the US, the first thing most students do when they get to college is engage in illegal underage drinking. In Australia the university system is extremely picky, you have to go to high school for 2 extra years (Others quit at 15), you have to take these incredibly god-awful tests just to get in and there are fewer students. They have an active apprenticeship culture, so not everybody is expected to go to college. So, I'd say, the average Uni student is more mature and you have to be more disciplined just to stay in school.
Maybe it's true, everybody had, at least, some exposure to alcohol before Uni. So, it wasn't that big a deal. Maybe you're right.
There was no greek system and you didn't get scholarships to play rugby or cricket. The university didn't function as a 'farm league' for professional sports. Everybody just studied.
I never remember going to a party, anywhere, where I felt at risk for being an American–and that could be a real problem in some places.
I am not sure there was less drinking (Australia was/is a drinking culture.). There weren't wild parties to go with it and no places like frat houses. In the US, the first thing most students do when they get to college is engage in illegal underage drinking. In Australia the university system is extremely picky, you have to go to high school for 2 extra years (Others quit at 15), you have to take these incredibly god-awful tests just to get in and there are fewer students. They have an active apprenticeship culture, so not everybody is expected to go to college. So, I'd say, the average Uni student is more mature and you have to be more disciplined just to stay in school.
Maybe it's true, everybody had, at least, some exposure to alcohol before Uni. So, it wasn't that big a deal. Maybe you're right.
I opposed making the legal drinking age 21. Too many "adult" activities which can "ruin" lives are legal for those between the ages of 18 and 21. And if one can legally own a gun, vote, marry, join a military service, give birth, purchase a car, obtain credit, be licensed to provide services etc. than one should be able to drink responsibly held to all the adult rules. Paying retail price for alcohol in a licensed establishment as part of normal social activities would eliminate so many problems on college campuses. Strict enforcement of laws against purchasing or giving alcohol to minors, driving/cycling while under the influence and other laws enforced for all adults would focus attention on those whose behaviour is harmful no matter what their age is.
That being said, I am appalled that sororities have calmly accepted their second class citizenship for so many years. It is time for a change.
That being said, I am appalled that sororities have calmly accepted their second class citizenship for so many years. It is time for a change.
4
How about drinking less & keeping your wits about you? The drinking age when I went to college was 18 & everyone drank... the difference was that those who drank to excess were in the minority & not the norm. I just don't get it.
9
Thank you. Call me old-fashioned and out of touch but in an age where young people work-out regularly, watch what they eat, and seemingly smoke less, where does excessive alcohol fit in for men or for women? What is it about our culture that says on weekends and some weeknights, on college campuses, frat or sorority houses, or for that matter, the basement of your home, it's okay to drink excessively, or to the point where judgement is impaired?
We all know that no one has the right to take advantage of another human being under any circumstances whether that person is stone sober or drunk: Alcohol levels of victims or perpetrators should not be an issue.
Physical health, safety, and common sense are compromised when one drinks to a level of mental, emotional, and physical impairment.
We all know that no one has the right to take advantage of another human being under any circumstances whether that person is stone sober or drunk: Alcohol levels of victims or perpetrators should not be an issue.
Physical health, safety, and common sense are compromised when one drinks to a level of mental, emotional, and physical impairment.
1
What social hypocrisy. The real problem is a lack of responsible adults ( and I don’t mean 21 year old college students). We know that drinking goes on. We know that most kids don’t wait until 21.
Part of the reason for all this chaos is that these parties aren’t attended by anyone modeling appropriate behavior: just because we’re serving alcohol doesn’t make it an anything goes free for all. Kids at these parties are all learning from each other, and the bar isn’t set very high.
We should consider allowing supervised drinking of adolescents by adults in limited venues. If my kids are old enough to vote and join the armed forces, why can’t I serve beer and wine at their high school graduation party? Why can’t my 19 yo order a beer at the pub when we go out for lunch together? I’d feel much better if kids were introduced to alcohol in a controlled manner rather than sending them off to college with my fingers crossed.
Part of the reason for all this chaos is that these parties aren’t attended by anyone modeling appropriate behavior: just because we’re serving alcohol doesn’t make it an anything goes free for all. Kids at these parties are all learning from each other, and the bar isn’t set very high.
We should consider allowing supervised drinking of adolescents by adults in limited venues. If my kids are old enough to vote and join the armed forces, why can’t I serve beer and wine at their high school graduation party? Why can’t my 19 yo order a beer at the pub when we go out for lunch together? I’d feel much better if kids were introduced to alcohol in a controlled manner rather than sending them off to college with my fingers crossed.
8
I absolutely adore all the "Back in my day" and "Women shouldn't drink, PERIOD" comments. There are a lot of 35+ NY Times readers on this Tuesday morning that are feeling nice and smug that they solved the campus rape problem by judging college kids from their keyboard, in between sips of their cooling latte.
6
“It’s what we know,” Ashley Alessandra, a freshman, said while walking to a Kappa Alpha fraternity party with three friends on Friday night. “We go to frats.”
And get blind drunk, which is putting yourself at risk, whether you are a male or a female.
And get blind drunk, which is putting yourself at risk, whether you are a male or a female.
2
Eliminate the fraternities, the sororities, and all of the institutions of higher living in total. Just scan these comments and use your innate intelligence to reach this conclusion.
1
Women must band together and as a group refuse to go to places they can be raped including the Greek houses. Think first and avoid later trauma and grief.
1
A party may be held with just women, but what happens after the women leave the party to go back to their rooms? If they've had too much to drink, they have no control over what happens to them. People have to start taking responsibility for what happens to them and be aware constantly of their surroundings.
2
Wow. I honestly didn't know that this gender divide existed. And I absolutely do expect that sorority parties--even with alcohol---would have a pretty different culture from fraternity parties.
To all those saying that the problem is alcohol, not where it's consumed--there are certainly risks that go inevitably alongside college alcohol consumption. But rape isn't a matter of "losing control" or "not being able to think clearly." It's a matter of culture and values. Or do you tend to rape people whilst drunk?
To all those saying that the problem is alcohol, not where it's consumed--there are certainly risks that go inevitably alongside college alcohol consumption. But rape isn't a matter of "losing control" or "not being able to think clearly." It's a matter of culture and values. Or do you tend to rape people whilst drunk?
6
Taking it in the other direction is better: ban drinking at fraternities. Yeah, they'd still drink and there would still be underage drinking, but there would be less of both, as it would have to be under the radar, and an end to wild drinking parties, the fuel of many rapes.
1
Been there, done all of that, when the legal drinking age was 18. We had alcohol at my sorority house for parties and we kept beer in our little refrigerators. We did not binge drink because we legally went to bars and drank there. It was about being social, not about getting drunk, in the first place. If anybody got "wasted" at a bar, there was a bouncer to escort her out and sorority sisters to take her home. One of these days this country is going to wake up to the insanity of the 21 year old age requirement for alcohol.
18
It would be nice to benchmark Europe for collage life ills (sexual assault, drop-out rates, DUI accidents), where drinking is allowed at 16 years of age or younger. The US illicit culture of alcohol in collage for those under 21 may be more damaging than a more open culture, where you were drinking with your parents at dinner in High School, or get a beer at McDonalds.
The problem isn't an 18 year old drinking, the problem is an 18-year old drinking A LOT with no supervision, peer pressure, and hormones.
The problem isn't an 18 year old drinking, the problem is an 18-year old drinking A LOT with no supervision, peer pressure, and hormones.
10
Here's a novel idea: communicate to all university students that rape is a crime. Giving someone a drug without their permission should be a crime as well, if it isn't already. No one deserves to be raped regardless of their attire or whether they chose to drink alcohol, or any other beverage, nor if they they walk on the street when it is dark outside. Do not involve university "police" in reported crime, instead involve the real police department.
9
It is not about who 'deserves' to be raped, it is that no one should put themselves in a dangerous situation where they are not aware of their surroundings or capable of making sound decisions to safeguard their well-being.
This applies to men and women.
This applies to men and women.
This is common sense. No need for for a "commissioned study" to examine incidences of harassment/molestation between sober and drinking socials. When did we become such a stupid populance?
1
Sigma Delt is just one of Dartmouth's 3 local sororities, all of which host open parties. Would love to see more houses disaffiliate from their national organizations and take control of their own houses, whether or not they choose to invite the campus in for parties.
1
Hear, hear. All of the affiliated sororities should be required to go local out of fairness to their members.
Or we could lower the drinking age to 18 or 19, aka adulthood, when folks are allowed to go to war, marry, sign contracts, etc., and encourage mature behavior around alcohol consumption.
4
My classmates at Barnard were grateful that sororities were forbidden there; even decades ago, the notion seemed primitive. Many university students are adults, legally; should they not be expected to act as such?
How about getting ride of fraternities altogether - and sororities too?
How about getting ride of fraternities altogether - and sororities too?
9
Why are you so comfortable making decisions for all of the other folks who may choose to join a sorority at college?
Oh - that is right - that is the definition of a liberal.
Oh - that is right - that is the definition of a liberal.
I didn't read the article. I took one look at the top photo of the online story (two young women having a chat in an open doorway while icicles hang from a trash bin on the porch) and decided I didn't care to revisit my memories of college days. Girls whose parents had so much money they could blow it on a sorority and girls whose reason for being there had little to do with education. Yeah, I'm prejudiced, but a houseful of airheads was never my idea of how to make the most of college. Obviously, the two in the photo don't have to pay the heating bill (or care about energy resources or the environment).
5
It seems to me that expanding the hosting of parities and serving of alcohol to to sororities is not addressing the root of the problem but, instead, is a way of avoiding heart of the issue, which is the views on women cultivated and learned in fraternities. Giving female students another option does not eliminate the dangerous frat party settings or the mentality of the students who host them.
3
Are the female students forced to go to frat parties then?
1
Young women should be able to go to parties without fearing sexual assault. A simple switch in location won't change the dangerous ideas about consent that are prevalent in many fraternities.
1
Seems like a good idea, but should sororities and their insurance companies be sanctioning underage drinking?
And how many people have sanctioned the underage drinking at fraternities?
A key problem here is that undergraduates don't have legal venues for drinking, so the only places they drink are at rowdy parties.
Maybe some controlled drinking should be legalized for people in the 18-20 year old range: No more than one drink an hour, maximum three drinks in an evening. That would create a context to teach moderate drinking, something young people are missing today.
And how many people have sanctioned the underage drinking at fraternities?
A key problem here is that undergraduates don't have legal venues for drinking, so the only places they drink are at rowdy parties.
Maybe some controlled drinking should be legalized for people in the 18-20 year old range: No more than one drink an hour, maximum three drinks in an evening. That would create a context to teach moderate drinking, something young people are missing today.
3
Lowering the drinking age would solve this issue instantly. Then we don't need college parties in discreet private locations. Authority figures would be given more tools to effectively counter the negative influences of alcohol, more events would be encouraged across a broader spectrum of people (both in age and diversity), and people can have control of their own consumption.
57
Over 100 college presidents have called for just that, for the reason you mention:
http://www.snhu.edu/7783.asp
http://www.snhu.edu/7783.asp
3
I used to think this too or to have parents let their kids drink under their supervision to understand their limits and get the novelty out of the way before going off to college, but research suggests that drinking before a certain biological age affects the brain adversely so I've backtracked on that.
1
'...but research suggests that drinking before a certain biological age affects the brain adverse...'
Drinking to excess, I assume you mean.
Drinking to excess, I assume you mean.
Ummm, is not one of the main ideas of sororities and fraternities to hang out and socialize with members of the opposite sex during organized affairs?
I went to Dartmouth and thought the whole fraternity scene was a joke at the time, but I would defend to the day I die their right to party as they chose. The idea of removing them strikes me as patronizing nonsense.
I also knew a large number of women at Dartmouth and do not recall hearing of a single assault. In my experience, men were far more damaged, emotionally, by the disproportionate ratio at the time (5:1 to 3:1 men-to-women) which led to lots of what might be termed 'summary dumpings'.
I went to Dartmouth and thought the whole fraternity scene was a joke at the time, but I would defend to the day I die their right to party as they chose. The idea of removing them strikes me as patronizing nonsense.
I also knew a large number of women at Dartmouth and do not recall hearing of a single assault. In my experience, men were far more damaged, emotionally, by the disproportionate ratio at the time (5:1 to 3:1 men-to-women) which led to lots of what might be termed 'summary dumpings'.
2
For the second time, no one is talking about removing fraternities or outlawing male behavior. It's not clear what article you are reading.
If you would defend the Greeks' right to party, why limit it to just men's organizations? Why not bristle at the national sororities' draconian, antiquated bans on alcohol?
If you would defend the Greeks' right to party, why limit it to just men's organizations? Why not bristle at the national sororities' draconian, antiquated bans on alcohol?
Most of the comments here seem to focus around how (if you're a woman) to protect yourself at a party. Think about it - protect yourself at a party - scary.
Two things need to happen. Less alcohol and a different social dynamic for parties. I was a student in the 80's and it seems that nothing has changed in terms of fraternities. All of the dangers of sexual assault were happening then and apparently are still happening now. Having sororities host and control parties would be a great way to change the power dynamic owned by the frat houses today.
The fuel for this behavior is alcohol. If the alcohol is removed much of the other behavior will at least be muted. Kids will always find a way to get alcohol - but systematically limiting it access (and having a severe punishment) would calm this situation down. 18-21 year old men who are very drunk has always been a risky combination.
It won't solve this problem but removing or severely limiting alcohol will help change the conversation and also change the dynamic of power at frat houses.
Two things need to happen. Less alcohol and a different social dynamic for parties. I was a student in the 80's and it seems that nothing has changed in terms of fraternities. All of the dangers of sexual assault were happening then and apparently are still happening now. Having sororities host and control parties would be a great way to change the power dynamic owned by the frat houses today.
The fuel for this behavior is alcohol. If the alcohol is removed much of the other behavior will at least be muted. Kids will always find a way to get alcohol - but systematically limiting it access (and having a severe punishment) would calm this situation down. 18-21 year old men who are very drunk has always been a risky combination.
It won't solve this problem but removing or severely limiting alcohol will help change the conversation and also change the dynamic of power at frat houses.
20
But the alcohol is already illegal. I don't see how you're going to limit it, because, as you point out, kids will always find a way to get alcohol. And it's particularly easy for college kids in a fraternity, since the older fraternity members are 21 and can buy as much as they want. Also, regarding punishment, kids already use illegal drugs, which risks draconian legal penalties.
2
'...Think about it - protect yourself at a party - scary...'
It is not a matter of 'protecting' yourself, it is matter of not drinking yourself to unconsciousness, as that puts you at risk, whether you are male or female.
That is not 'scary', that is common sense.
It is not a matter of 'protecting' yourself, it is matter of not drinking yourself to unconsciousness, as that puts you at risk, whether you are male or female.
That is not 'scary', that is common sense.
1
18-21 year old women and alcohol is just as bad a combination. I don't think too many drunk guys are taking advantage of too many sober girls. Just a guess.
This article and the responses are absolutely ludicrous to me. As a member of a sorority whose members are quoted in this article, I am in shock at the ignorance displayed, however we all have the tendency to criticize the unknown. Going through rush was the best decision I have made in my life. The women I have met are kind,strong, and are my champions.
A portion of my dues go towards our House Corps, which maintains the sorority houses, purchases new furniture, and takes care of any other problems. I would be more than angry if my sisters began keeping alcohol in our house (against national policy) and throwing parties at our houses. My dues towards house corps as well as our insurance policy would increase dramatically.
The women who choose to attend parties at fraternities are not forced to go there. There are fraternity parties I choose not to attend because I don't know the brothers there. However, there are also fraternity parties that I attend because the men are genuine, kind, and I feel 100% comfortable around them, whether sober or intoxicated. There are men who have given me their beds while they have taken a living room couch.
If people want to drink, they will find a way. There are men everywhere who will prey on drunk girls. The important thing to remember is that no one is forcing anyone to go anywhere they don't want to or to consume alcohol.
A portion of my dues go towards our House Corps, which maintains the sorority houses, purchases new furniture, and takes care of any other problems. I would be more than angry if my sisters began keeping alcohol in our house (against national policy) and throwing parties at our houses. My dues towards house corps as well as our insurance policy would increase dramatically.
The women who choose to attend parties at fraternities are not forced to go there. There are fraternity parties I choose not to attend because I don't know the brothers there. However, there are also fraternity parties that I attend because the men are genuine, kind, and I feel 100% comfortable around them, whether sober or intoxicated. There are men who have given me their beds while they have taken a living room couch.
If people want to drink, they will find a way. There are men everywhere who will prey on drunk girls. The important thing to remember is that no one is forcing anyone to go anywhere they don't want to or to consume alcohol.
31
what an adult, sensible statement. well done!
Well, you would save money on national dues if your sorority went local. And your sorority would still have the option of banning alcohol or parties; you just wouldn't have it dictated to you from above.
I cannot understand the love for fraternities/sororities. You write as if the kind of friendship you've found would have been impossible without them. People find friendship - "brothers" and "sisters" - on their own, and quite possibly those are even truer, deeper friendships, since they happened organically, without the separatism of pledges, and clubs.
1
Responsibility and control go hand in hand. There is no escaping that. If women want more control of the college social scene, they will have to assume more of the cost as well, just as the advent of the Pill gave women control of their fertility but also forced them to take responsibility for it.
At frat parties, the brothers serve alcohol to women precisely as a means of drawing them in and loosening their inhibitions in order to have sex with them. That's the entire point. Women who want to drink, but not necessarily have sex, enter an inherently hostile environment when they go to a frat party. Sorority parties would provide a better option.
A century of experience has proved that trying to ban adults from consuming intoxicants doesn't make it go away, it only pushes it into dangerous spaces controlled by miscreants. Cracking down on alcohol would only serve to make colleges more dangerous by pushing the party scene deeper underground.
At frat parties, the brothers serve alcohol to women precisely as a means of drawing them in and loosening their inhibitions in order to have sex with them. That's the entire point. Women who want to drink, but not necessarily have sex, enter an inherently hostile environment when they go to a frat party. Sorority parties would provide a better option.
A century of experience has proved that trying to ban adults from consuming intoxicants doesn't make it go away, it only pushes it into dangerous spaces controlled by miscreants. Cracking down on alcohol would only serve to make colleges more dangerous by pushing the party scene deeper underground.
'...At frat parties, the brothers serve alcohol to women precisely as a means of drawing them in and loosening their inhibitions in order to have sex with them. That's the entire point...'
Just as many women use alcohol to loosen their own inhibitions in order to have sex with men.
That's the entire point.
Just as many women use alcohol to loosen their own inhibitions in order to have sex with men.
That's the entire point.
This makes as much sense as the argument that more guns will make us safer.
2
Mixing alcohol and less-than-fully mature brains is inherently a dangerous combination, regardless of venue. What ever happened to chaperones?
3
Since the drinking age is 21, serving alcohol to the vast majority of college students would be illegal, which is a huge part of the problem.
1
First and foremost is the fact that somehow we allow college campuses to be little entitled fiefdoms that are exempt from laws that are enforced vigorously off campus. The drinking age in New York State is 21. The freshman that enter college and are at most risk are 17 and 18 years old. The very worst place for some sort of misplaced 'privilege' to apply is on a college campus where these young folks are supposed to be learning both academics and real life skills. Fraternities and Sororities should be alcohol free. If anyone over 21 wishes to exercise their right to drink, they can easily find it off campus. Further, if a college chooses to allow fraternities to even exist, than they are inherently responsible for the activities that occur and should be held fully liable for negligence when illegal activities occur on their watch, such as underage drinking, illegal drugs, hazing and rape. Wow, do we really even need fraternities at all???
7
'...The drinking age in New York State is 21...'
The federal drinking age is 21 and that is a huge part of the problem.
'...do we really even need fraternities at all???...'
People have the right to free association, as they should, whether someone else approves of their choices or not.
The federal drinking age is 21 and that is a huge part of the problem.
'...do we really even need fraternities at all???...'
People have the right to free association, as they should, whether someone else approves of their choices or not.
I'm truly stunned to hear that sororities ban alcohol. That seems unfathomably out of date.
1
Seriously, I thought the purpose of attending a college or university was to obtain an education. It is a privilege to be treated in an adult manner with responsibility. The "Greek" system does nothing to shore up educational opportunity or performance - and all this drivel about how to "control" parties and alcohol consumption are not really relevant to a quality university education.
And kids are going into debt bigtime for things like this?
And kids are going into debt bigtime for things like this?
4
Anti rape idea: don't drink yourself into unconsciousness.
46
Reading comprehension idea - re-read the article. A MAJOR problem is *spiked* drinks.
2
Did you read the article? Sometimes drinks are spiked with a date rape sedative.
3
These aren't hard core middle-age drinkers with a high alcohol tolerance. They are lightweight teens without the experience to know how alcohol will affect them. Their only involvement with alcohol could be witnessing others guzzling away from a Solo cup and remaining sober. The best anti-rape idea: raise one's kids to be completely respectful of others, because rapists will continue to rape future victims, whether there is alcohol in the picture or not.
3
FINALLY, a sensible answer to the problem. It obviously won't solve all the issues, but at least it's a step in the right direction because it deals with the one issue that can be [somewhat] controlled: Alchohol, the major cause of assaults on campus.
Oh, and don't worry that the guys will go elsewhere - they'll follow the girls.
Oh, and don't worry that the guys will go elsewhere - they'll follow the girls.
4
Isn't the idea of moving parties to sorority houses an admission that women have the power to prevent most campus sexual assaults, but choose not to?
Like I tell my eighteen year old daughter who will be attending college in the fall--they don't write country songs about tequila making her clothes fall off for nothing. Boys and booze, unless you are aiming to have cheap sex, don't mix. And the only person who can prevent in you the sort of drunkeness that leads later to regret is you.
Like I tell my eighteen year old daughter who will be attending college in the fall--they don't write country songs about tequila making her clothes fall off for nothing. Boys and booze, unless you are aiming to have cheap sex, don't mix. And the only person who can prevent in you the sort of drunkeness that leads later to regret is you.
3
I believe that the problem can be blamed on both parties (fraternity and sorority). Young women dress very inviting to say the least and do not control their alcohol consumption. Young men are very aggressive and often compete with other fraternity brothers to see who can get "laid". This is a recipe for disaster. From my observations many women will initiate these acts and then feel guilty the following morning. They may not wanted to be viewed as someone who gets around (insert negative word for women that do this here), or they have a boyfriend back home. So what do they do? Cry rape. This is a portion of the raping that is occurring but should still be considered. There is of course conventional date rape occurring as well.
Since young women are primarily the victims I believe they should practice self control and remain alert of their surroundings while partying. Many problems can be solved just by using better judgement. Unfortunately many college age kids have not been put in enough situations to practice using better judgement. This is partially due to poor parenting and lack of direction from parents.
Since young women are primarily the victims I believe they should practice self control and remain alert of their surroundings while partying. Many problems can be solved just by using better judgement. Unfortunately many college age kids have not been put in enough situations to practice using better judgement. This is partially due to poor parenting and lack of direction from parents.
2
Here's another idea---why not go the library on weekends.
5
Of course there's a bar near the Ohio State campus called "the library. "
I have advocated banning of all fraternities connections to colleges for years because they are consistently rape factories. Why it has not been even considered is most of the power structure at colleges and in our legislative bodies is concentrated in ex-Frat members. The elites protect themselves just as the cops protect their fellow officers. Thankfully the women have finally gained enough respect to be listened to. The public rightfully has been led to think of frats as good networking for future success, unfortunately they also lead to horrendous actions in hazing and drinking and raping to the point there is "omerta" for the frat brothers to keep the secrets and that is part of the lifelong value of them. Fellow rapists must keep each others secrets for life.
5
Good luck with that. Alcohol, among other drugs to soften our morals, does an 'outstanding' job. Perhaps a bit more consensual...but not by much.
2
Here's an anti-rape idea: quit drinking.
5
Says the person who takes on the profile name of a serial killer. The better anti-rape idea: prevent a boy from becoming a criminal and serial rapist by parenting them with love and a respect for others. It's really not hard.
1
Like a lot of responses below: just say no to alcohol. How immature and irresponsible these kids behave. Let us bind their scholarships to their behavior.
2
Sorority memberships "cost $25 to $50 a year per sorority member." Most of the relevant things have been said, but this out-of-context remark is so ridiculous. Even the NYT has recently run pieces on how "voluntary" fees and various party expenses make sorority membership cost thousands of dollars per year. So discuss whether alcohol should be allowed (it should, and more importantly, there should be equivalent houses), but please don't disingenuously claim it's about money.
5
That's the cost for insurance, not all fees.
2
Right, so it shouldn't cost more than $110 to $135 per person more to have insurance that would cover sororities the same as fraternities (although I expect there would still be a discount.) Given the thousands of dollars per year it costs, we are talking about, at most, ~5% increase.
1
None of these articles address the many, many, many cases of false accusation of rape! in the female-dominated society we live in men are guilty until proven innocent! The penalties for false accusation should be at least EQUAL to act itself. Many men's lives have been completely and irreparably destroyed because of the witch-hunt, feminist-dominated society we live in today! I'm really sick of all the extremely biased and sexist articles on the is subject that the New York Times keeps spewing out!
5
I wish there was a way to downvote.
10
that had to be some kind of satire. so many, many many many exclamation points!
Looks like a no-brainer. Given that alcohol abuse is a problem wherever it happens, on what grounds is it allowed in men's houses but not in female? I don't think its because men have shown themselves to be more responsible!
What a dated, sexist policy. Goes with the territory, I guess.
What a dated, sexist policy. Goes with the territory, I guess.
6
What stupidity. It only took one piece of advice from my father to me when I was about 16: "I don't care if you smoke (the dangers of smoking had still not been made official and public), but don't drink, because you're a woman and you don't want to put yourself in a compromised position." He only delivered this warning to me ONCE.
10
A lot of people don't have fathers.
2
Maybe that's part of the problem. The activities and attitudes displayed by the alcohol-fueled culture on display at these parties, regardless of which gender runs them offends the founding values of "Greek" organizations, which were to uphold the highest standards of scholarship and integrity enshrined in a classical education. All that can be produced by the cited activities is a bunch of expedient careerists, much like the ones we see in all arenas today, in politics, in business, etc. It's really sad.
If the tie to so may of these rapes is alcohol how about banning alcohol at the fraternity houses as well? Rather than adding more opportunity to get drunk and a false sense of security because the girls are "at home" how about removing the alcohol from bedroom type places completely? Why can't a crack down come at the expense of those overwhelmingly at fault??
8
I taught for several decades at a California State University campus. In its early days the CSU, influenced by a kind of anti-elitist idealism, tried to resist formation of a Greek system on its campuses. But national fraternities (with plenty of money and lawyers) managed to gain a foothold and all of the familiar problems, grounded in alcohol, soon followed.
Watching a toxic frat boy culture develop and come to dominate our very diverse, mainly working class student body was a truly depressing spectacle. It's not just the alcohol folks, IT'S THE FRATERNITIES. This is where vulnerable young men are taught that power rules and anything is okay as long as you don't get caught.
Watching a toxic frat boy culture develop and come to dominate our very diverse, mainly working class student body was a truly depressing spectacle. It's not just the alcohol folks, IT'S THE FRATERNITIES. This is where vulnerable young men are taught that power rules and anything is okay as long as you don't get caught.
194
How about NOT drinking to excess wherever you are? What a concept
21
We know how well abstinence lectures against sex worked. Providing education and preventative measures such as birth control lowers the incidence.
Policies that provide education to all incoming freshmen, all assaults are reported to the police and results are available to the public. Mandatory independent security hired at frat parties, to keep all participants in the same common areas of the frat house. No women allowed upstairs.
Policies that provide education to all incoming freshmen, all assaults are reported to the police and results are available to the public. Mandatory independent security hired at frat parties, to keep all participants in the same common areas of the frat house. No women allowed upstairs.
1
Never having experienced that scene, I am astonished to learn about the "rules" for women. OF COURSE they are better off if they can have their own parties! Boys turn into yelling, slobbering idiots as they drink themselves sick. They fight, break things and generally make themselves repulsive.
Girls, I'm sure, do a little of that too, but nowhere near as much as the guys. I'm pretty sure they are capable of throwing a terrific party without having to hide all their breakable stuff. If any of them feel the need to retreat, it is their own rooms they can go to and lock up against the barbarians.
Girls, I'm sure, do a little of that too, but nowhere near as much as the guys. I'm pretty sure they are capable of throwing a terrific party without having to hide all their breakable stuff. If any of them feel the need to retreat, it is their own rooms they can go to and lock up against the barbarians.
7
Boys and girls (and most of them are boys and girls as opposed to men and women) living together with easy access to alcohol. What could go wrong?
That said, this is a good example of taking some ownership of the situation. Have your own freaking parties where you can get as wasted as you want and roll around on your own floors like animals. Why do only the boys get to host such a great and uplifting get together?
That said, this is a good example of taking some ownership of the situation. Have your own freaking parties where you can get as wasted as you want and roll around on your own floors like animals. Why do only the boys get to host such a great and uplifting get together?
8
The answer is NO. The legal drinking age is 21 -- enforce it. Ever known a teen who drunk and wearing black crossed the street at dusk in front of a 70 plus year old driver? The result is NOT good.
And meantime do not allow drinking on AM TV. Sorry Kathy Lee and Hoda, but NBC IMO is exceedingly irresponsible in this matter. Really bad role model!! There is less alcohol on the PM soaps!
And meantime do not allow drinking on AM TV. Sorry Kathy Lee and Hoda, but NBC IMO is exceedingly irresponsible in this matter. Really bad role model!! There is less alcohol on the PM soaps!
3
The way to deal with the problem that would work:
No booze or drugs on campus. Violation of the rule results in immediate expulsion with no refund of your tuition and/or fees. Strict enforcement.
The institution is entitled to set its rules and the penalties for breaking them. Generally, students enter college at 18 - legal adults able to sign a contract and be held to it. Have them sign this legally binding contract at matriculation. Then, enforce it.
Don't tell me it can't be done when what you mean is that you lack the will to do it. It's done all the time. If you are employed in a workplace - and if instead of going to college the students entered the workplace - you are presumably held to such a contract and your employer enforces it. When students are in school, it is their employments - their job is to learn.
No booze or drugs on campus. Violation of the rule results in immediate expulsion with no refund of your tuition and/or fees. Strict enforcement.
The institution is entitled to set its rules and the penalties for breaking them. Generally, students enter college at 18 - legal adults able to sign a contract and be held to it. Have them sign this legally binding contract at matriculation. Then, enforce it.
Don't tell me it can't be done when what you mean is that you lack the will to do it. It's done all the time. If you are employed in a workplace - and if instead of going to college the students entered the workplace - you are presumably held to such a contract and your employer enforces it. When students are in school, it is their employments - their job is to learn.
2
Lowering the drinking age back to 18 is a better idea, as raising it only forced young people to drink without any adult around.
There is a substantial body of scientific evidence that drinking alcohol lowers inhibitions.
There is also a substantial body of scientific evidence that drinking disturbs (normal) sleep and disrupts learning (diminishes hippocampal consolidation).
On the other hand, humans aren't perfect and are social animals and need relationship to survive.
I don't have a prescription. I am just stating the facts that need to be added into the decision making equation.
There is also a substantial body of scientific evidence that drinking disturbs (normal) sleep and disrupts learning (diminishes hippocampal consolidation).
On the other hand, humans aren't perfect and are social animals and need relationship to survive.
I don't have a prescription. I am just stating the facts that need to be added into the decision making equation.
Humans need relationships to survive. OK, granted. But relationships - good, healthy, real relationships, whether love, friendship, casual acquaintance, work, family - do not need alcohol and/or drugs. If you need to drink in order to enjoy spending time with these people, you need to rethink your choice of social circle.
1
"(Humans are) social animals and need relationship to survive". Agree, but why do you need alcohol to have relationships? That is the question.
1
There is also research supporting the fact that women who start drinking at a young age are more prone to breast cancer. And what about the other long term physical consequences of starting to drink heavily early on, for both men and women, even the highly educated that later produce children that flood special education programs with a condition called "PDD" for pervasive developmental disorder, a condition in the autism spectrum. Anecdotally, these are often children of high achieving parents who, no doubt, partook of plenty of boozing and drugging while attending Dartmouth, etc.
Having been to my share of frat parties there are a few simple rules:
Never drink the punch, never
Never go upstairs, never!
Arrive in a group and leave as such. Leave no girl unaccounted for.
Do not get wasted.
As women we need to protect ourselves, this has always been true and always will be true.
Never drink the punch, never
Never go upstairs, never!
Arrive in a group and leave as such. Leave no girl unaccounted for.
Do not get wasted.
As women we need to protect ourselves, this has always been true and always will be true.
47
Great rules: they would be mandatory for sororities.
Always get your own drink and always keep it in your hand.
Use the restroom in threes: two outside the door.
Designated sober woman.
Always get your own drink and always keep it in your hand.
Use the restroom in threes: two outside the door.
Designated sober woman.
3
Simpler rule: Don't go.
3
Excellent perspective. Women who attend these parties need to understand that they are entering hostile territory and behave accordingly or else run the risk of being picked off once separated from the herd.
1
It doesn't seem like much has changed since I was in college. I can understand the concern about having to pay higher insurance premiums, and most sorority houses are not set up like fraternity houses, which often have huge party rooms and shabby decor that can accommodate all the disgusting spills that happen at these parties. I see no reason why sororities, if their insurance coverage allows it on site, to host parties with alcohol. They might be smaller gatherings, more controlled. Although it's not a popular thing to say, I believe college students (typically between ages 18-21) need more supervision when it comes to their social gatherings or even their dormitories. I know you have to learn the hard way when you've had enough (many of us did that in college), but it amazes me how much booze some young people pour down their throats. It's a recipe for disaster -- particularly the shots, the spiked punches, beer bongs, etc.
28
The colleges are in a bind here because legally, these kids can't drink, which means the colleges can't offer parties with adult supervision. That's why college presidents have asked that the drinking age be lowered to a more realistic 18.
1
What about slightly older adult "advisers" being a civilizing influence at parties? Fraternities have alumni boards, business managers, etc. They could have representatives discreetly supervising in the background to make sure things don't get completely out of hand. As an incentive, maybe they could get a break on insurance premiums that way.
eems these young women are at least looking to change the parameters in a way that espouses common sense rather than living in some illusory alternate and idealized universe where kids don't drink.
College drinking and parties have been a problem since long before I went to college----over thirty years ago. I have watched a gazillion campaigns come and go and none seem to FIX the problem. Every year, we lose kids to all kinds of incidents that begin with a drink. Why? Because "free" for the first time, and loose in an unstructured yet pressure filled environment, kids see drinking as a means for fun, relaxation and the loosening of inhibitions. Less addressed is the root cause of the need for alcohol and/or how to manage it.
Is it time we got real that "just say no" ain't working.
We have taught our children that alcohol and drugs are, in fact, alluring (why deny it?) but also some of the very real consequences, which we have been sure are graphically illustrated. Long before my kids ever hit college, I will allow them to drink in our home so they can experience, on their own, what is truly the right "limit" for them. Our hope is to empower them because we believe there is a disconnect between what happens in college and what we wish would happen. We will try and arm them with facts, options, experiences that help address the reasons for over drinking because it seems adults, eventually, do learn how to coexist in a world with alcohol.
College drinking and parties have been a problem since long before I went to college----over thirty years ago. I have watched a gazillion campaigns come and go and none seem to FIX the problem. Every year, we lose kids to all kinds of incidents that begin with a drink. Why? Because "free" for the first time, and loose in an unstructured yet pressure filled environment, kids see drinking as a means for fun, relaxation and the loosening of inhibitions. Less addressed is the root cause of the need for alcohol and/or how to manage it.
Is it time we got real that "just say no" ain't working.
We have taught our children that alcohol and drugs are, in fact, alluring (why deny it?) but also some of the very real consequences, which we have been sure are graphically illustrated. Long before my kids ever hit college, I will allow them to drink in our home so they can experience, on their own, what is truly the right "limit" for them. Our hope is to empower them because we believe there is a disconnect between what happens in college and what we wish would happen. We will try and arm them with facts, options, experiences that help address the reasons for over drinking because it seems adults, eventually, do learn how to coexist in a world with alcohol.
7
If I was accused of raping a girl a bar, I don't believe the bar owner is required by law to do its own investigation and apply punishment to me. Why do we give universities this latitude? A quick way to change the conversation around rape is that EVERY TIME there is an accusation of rape at a fraternity party, the city (NOT CAMPUS) or state police are called to investigate. While they don't have a stellar reputation for investigations, either, it might give young men at the fraternity parties something else to think about if things move immediately to a criminal investigation. Ditto if Fraternities are found to have supplied alcohol to minors.
23
Certainly the bar owner has the latitude to do his own investigation and punish you for breaking the rules of the bar. If it's a club and you're a member, he'll kick you out. That's what universities do: they investigate rulebreaking among students and expel the worst offenders. Would we want it any other way? Would any rational university punish plagiarism but not assault?
In states where the drinking age is 21, why are the colleges not enforcing that? You may wish to give it a wink and a nod, but would you do the same if it was cigarettes?
3
Don't binge drink. That will solve a great deal of the problem. if you must binge drink, do it in your own room (close to the toilet).
8
Sorority women paying for their own drinks and for the drinks of their male guests.
Radical.
Radical.
7
Will never happen, and if it were the guilt trip would likely be everlasting.
It's been happening for decades at Sigma Delta at Dartmouth.
1
Now, I am many years past my college days, but what about this.If the culture of the Frat parties are fraught with sexual perils then: Don't Go! What if women didn't show up. What if the Frat parities became all male parties. Could that not produce a better party climate?
7
Young women need to do two things:
1) Stop getting so drunk that you leave yourself vulnerable (not just to rape, but to other crimes), and need to be looked after
2) Stop living your lives based on the fear of the 0.0001% of men who may commit a rape. You cant go around living your life like a petrified deer in headlights. If you are sensible, dont get too drunk, and talk to the right men then your odds of being raped at a party are practically zero.
Some of this sounds like underdeveloped social skills on the part of the girls.
1) Stop getting so drunk that you leave yourself vulnerable (not just to rape, but to other crimes), and need to be looked after
2) Stop living your lives based on the fear of the 0.0001% of men who may commit a rape. You cant go around living your life like a petrified deer in headlights. If you are sensible, dont get too drunk, and talk to the right men then your odds of being raped at a party are practically zero.
Some of this sounds like underdeveloped social skills on the part of the girls.
10
However, the feminism I grew up with, coming of age in the late 1960s and the 1970s, which aimed at producing smart, savvy, responsible women who demanded to be treated like adults, has morphed into the 'feminism' of perpetual victimhood. Young 'feminists' today seem to be demanding all the rights of an adult, all the responsibility of an infant. And demanding the exact reverse of males - expecting the mature self-control that it's 'blaming the victim' if expected of themselves. And I think deep down, they cherish their pose of victimhood - they luxuriate in sympathy and the chance to beat others over the head with their 'victimhood'. We campaigned for the right not to be treated like children; they're crying for the right to behave like perpetual toddlers and have the world childproofed for them.
2
Ceazar, the statistic is more like 6%. A study published in 2002 by David Lisak and Paul Miller, for which they interviewed college men about their sexual histories, found that about 6 percent of the men surveyed had attempted or successfully raped someone. That's huge. Women are right to be wary and careful around males. No, that doesn't mean that women should live "like a petrified deer," but please do not dismiss the very real risk of rape that women face in their daily lives.
5
I would dispute the 6%. Depends what the young men were asked, and how they defined rape (and no there is not a single definition of rape when we're talking about teens and alcohol and sex)
Irrespective, teen girls with better developed social skills would not get themselves into such a situation to begin with.
Irrespective, teen girls with better developed social skills would not get themselves into such a situation to begin with.
1
This makes sense to me. People who have studied this have found that a lot of sexual violence results from peer pressure--the need to impress your "brothers" with your fearlessness and sexual capacity. If you can break that chain, even a little bit, that's a good thing.
6
Don't want to be too much of apologist for binge drinking here, which I'm sure we can all agree is poor, risky behavior. However, this article makes a valid harm-minimization argument that the results of binge drinking at a sorority party (sickness, hangover), might be significantly less than at a frat party (alcohol poisoning, destroyed reputation, and/or being raped). Further, do all these "ban alcohol" commentators talking about how people should know their limits and not drink until they're 21 live in the real world at all? Most kids have tried pot by the time they're 18--so the "no alcohol' thing looks like a losing battle if there ever was one, or least not like a first-priority concern. And knowing your limits, again, obviously, is something we can all agree on. But a lot of these events are about people getting drunk for the first (or fourth) time and learning what their limits really are--something that everyone has to do, especially if their parents are their for much guidance. The default consequence of that shouldn't have to be a violent assault by another student.
34
Everybody I know speeds, so let's eliminate speed limits.
I am a paramedic who worked in a few college towns in the west. The alcohol related injuries and sickness in college students is way beyond that of the general public, in my anecdotal experience. You know how many kids I've seen killed in alcohol related transportation accidents? (You can kill someone with a bicycle.) Trauma from falling off high buildings? Just plain acts of alcohol induced stupidity? Then there's the roommates who take someone out binge drinking, when one of them passes out, they dump her/him in the dorm room w/o supervision and s/he dies of acute alcohol poisoning.
Underage drinking is against the law. I don't care what little Jimmy wants. We are a society of laws, not men. Deal with it.
I am a paramedic who worked in a few college towns in the west. The alcohol related injuries and sickness in college students is way beyond that of the general public, in my anecdotal experience. You know how many kids I've seen killed in alcohol related transportation accidents? (You can kill someone with a bicycle.) Trauma from falling off high buildings? Just plain acts of alcohol induced stupidity? Then there's the roommates who take someone out binge drinking, when one of them passes out, they dump her/him in the dorm room w/o supervision and s/he dies of acute alcohol poisoning.
Underage drinking is against the law. I don't care what little Jimmy wants. We are a society of laws, not men. Deal with it.
The problem isn't college parties that offer alcoholic beverages. The problem is partygoers who drink so much that they are too inebriated to control their impulses or protect themselves from possible harm. Is it possible to have a college party, with alcohol, and not have students getting drunk?
Maybe there are other ways for college students to socialize with each other that would not emphasize alcohol, rather, emphasize a common interest or activity, with alcohol being a minor part of the event.
Such as, an event where the attendees hear an interesting speaker, artist, or band/musician where there is interaction amongst the attendees and the featured guest, and, medium to heavy appetizers are served.
If the only reason for a male college student to attend a sorority sponsored party is the free and open availability of alcohol, then it seems to me that is not the type of young man they should want at their parties. The sorority sisters are better off without that type of young male at their party or in their lives.
Once young women recognize their self worth, the power of their voice in terms of potential partners, and then become willing to use that voice, they will recognize that they have the power to decide whom they consider prospective dates or partners. Ladies, you have the power.
Maybe there are other ways for college students to socialize with each other that would not emphasize alcohol, rather, emphasize a common interest or activity, with alcohol being a minor part of the event.
Such as, an event where the attendees hear an interesting speaker, artist, or band/musician where there is interaction amongst the attendees and the featured guest, and, medium to heavy appetizers are served.
If the only reason for a male college student to attend a sorority sponsored party is the free and open availability of alcohol, then it seems to me that is not the type of young man they should want at their parties. The sorority sisters are better off without that type of young male at their party or in their lives.
Once young women recognize their self worth, the power of their voice in terms of potential partners, and then become willing to use that voice, they will recognize that they have the power to decide whom they consider prospective dates or partners. Ladies, you have the power.
3
Do you really think Universities and Colleges don't offer such things? 15 years ago when I attended school they certainly did. But they tend to do little to sway folks from drinking. Like other commentors here have said, drinking will happen, let's figure out how to make it safe.
Ahh yes, "empowering" women to control men...when men are larger and stronger. How blissful you must be, with all that implies.
As a french guy, I never experienced frat parties since we have no fraternity culture.
While in law school (we ave no college either), for fun, I used to go to a friend's apartment in Paris and we would drink (moderately, to keep our wits), while discussing all the philosophical aspect of life. On rare occasion we would go clubbing, and manage to drive to the seashore (Deauville), for breakfast and sunrise….
What wonderful memories made while sharpening our minds and souls….
While in law school (we ave no college either), for fun, I used to go to a friend's apartment in Paris and we would drink (moderately, to keep our wits), while discussing all the philosophical aspect of life. On rare occasion we would go clubbing, and manage to drive to the seashore (Deauville), for breakfast and sunrise….
What wonderful memories made while sharpening our minds and souls….
25
Drunk and drugged at a sorority or drug and drugged at a frat house, what's the difference. It would seem that maybe one answer is for fraternities to follow the lead of sororities and ban alcohol.
5
Of course it would be a man who would suggest that the women hold parties off site. Nobody's talking about the GETTING HOME part. If you don't have to depend on the sisterhood --which can be like Mean Girls anyway -- or a man to take you home, you're halfway, well, home.
Also, I find this insurance argument silly: lots of groups, frats, etc., get insurance. Where there's a market, someone will fill the gap. Sure, dues may have to go up, but being in a sorority is not a God-given right.
Also, I find this insurance argument silly: lots of groups, frats, etc., get insurance. Where there's a market, someone will fill the gap. Sure, dues may have to go up, but being in a sorority is not a God-given right.
6
This idea seems comparable to "Just say no", or asking teens to abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy. Well intentioned, but with little regard to the reality of the end-user.
Also, is it a little bit 50's to say boys will be boys let's stay at home and avoid the problem, rather than say boys can no longer be boys and litigate to that end? Solve the problem not the symptom.
Also, is it a little bit 50's to say boys will be boys let's stay at home and avoid the problem, rather than say boys can no longer be boys and litigate to that end? Solve the problem not the symptom.
29
The results of litigation are not all that satisfactory for the accused or the accuser, however - that's a reality too. Also, not going to frat parties because of the behavior of the "boys being boys" does send a message that could change behavior - frat parties without women are not happy affairs.
3
I don't see how litigation is going to solve this. Most of these rapes don't end up in court, because the process is brutal for the defendant, and it's very difficult to convince a jury that you've been raped when you were so drunk you can't even remember what happened, as in the case reported a while back in the Times. (The girl also declined a rape kit, as I recall.)
Also, the penalties for rape are so justifiably harsh juries are reluctant to convict without evidence that's hard to obtain under the best of circumstances. You can bet that a jury is going to take "beyond a reasonable doubt" seriously when the penalty will destroy the defendant's life.
There will always be some predators and from what I've read, universities aren't very good at identifying and getting rid of the handful of serial offenders who commit most of these rapes. That being the case, I think a harm reduction strategy makes a lot of sense.
Also, the penalties for rape are so justifiably harsh juries are reluctant to convict without evidence that's hard to obtain under the best of circumstances. You can bet that a jury is going to take "beyond a reasonable doubt" seriously when the penalty will destroy the defendant's life.
There will always be some predators and from what I've read, universities aren't very good at identifying and getting rid of the handful of serial offenders who commit most of these rapes. That being the case, I think a harm reduction strategy makes a lot of sense.
1
You plan to litigate human behavior?
Good luck with that.
Good luck with that.
1
It's a bit facile to say, as some commenters have, "Can't the kids just drink less?" A woman who drinks too much doesn't deserve to be raped, or gang raped, which is something that occurred to a freshman girl living in my dorm when I was a student 30 years ago. The group of young men who lined up to rape the unconscious woman were bragging about it in the cafeteria the following day. I had too much to drink more than once in college. There but for the grace of God...
The Atlantic did a story last year called "The Dark Power of Fraternities" by Caitlin Flanagan. It's a VERY disturbing read, particularly if you have a daughter in college, or heading to college. It's available on line.
The Atlantic did a story last year called "The Dark Power of Fraternities" by Caitlin Flanagan. It's a VERY disturbing read, particularly if you have a daughter in college, or heading to college. It's available on line.
10
I doubt that anyone here believes that anyone deserves to get raped or is to blame for someone taking advantage of their situation, and we all get lucky with our own lapses in responsibility from drinking too much to taking our eyes off the road etc. But, any time we put ourselves in the position of relying on others not to take advantage of us (especially when to do so is part of the culture) or to pay attention when we're not, we are taking a chance; it's better not to put oneself in such a position, especially if those whose hands we put ourselves in are also not in full control, being fueled chemically or from the frat culture.
2
Such a generation of boring, boozy children does not bode well for our future. Where are the artists, writers, dreamers, lost in their thoughts instead of the bottle?
11
We are out there. As (mostly, probably) introverts, we suffered social exclusion and loneliness looking on during college at the ridiculous, dangerous, sometimes disgusting activities of other students, who were too wrapped up in 'networking' to focus on work in the classroom. Sold an ideal of college as a hotbed of intellectual discussion and adventure, the reality of a culture driven by alcohol-soaked hookups and the resulting fallout sunk in all too quickly. I spent many late nights in the studio or the library, trying to avoid the subwoofer pounding through the walls of the dorm. It's just such a sad waste.
8
Please. Most of the artists, writers, and dreamers of past generations were alcoholics or cocaine addicts. Self-destructive behavior seems to have begun at the dawn of human evolution. We must have lost a chromosome for sanity in the process...
2
In Brooklyn.
The real reason this wouldn't work is because sorority houses are too beautiful. Have you been inside a sorority house?? They are generally large, pristine, well-kept mansions with maids, a chef, etc. Have you seen a frat house? They are falling apart, beer-covered messes. There is no way any corporation board (the ruling board that manages each sorority house) would ever allow these beautiful monuments to degenerate to the standard of the typical frat house. Perhaps we should hold our guys to higher standards instead? Or simply change the reckless, destructive, binge-drinking behavior that defines modern day parting.
9
The three local sororities at Dartmouth are in former frat houses.
Yes but that is the exception, not the rule.
why not ban alcohol from frats?
2
Why not just ban frats? They're not good for anything and all you hear about them is just plain bad. What do they have to do with higher education?
6
I was a member of the local sorority, Sigma Delta, featured in this article. I'm not sure that there could ever be enough research to prove the theory that increasing the number of sorority-hosted parties would actually lower sexual assaults (my suspicion is that it would help, but hard to prove).
But I do know that the current system is absolutely antiquated and sexist. Women were admitted to Dartmouth in the 1970s, but still, in the late 2000s, the amount of power men still hold at the institution thanks to the embedded fraternity system was outrageous. Why not take every step possible to correct this imbalance? Allowing women to host parties seems like a pretty easy step, with plenty of benefits.
But I do know that the current system is absolutely antiquated and sexist. Women were admitted to Dartmouth in the 1970s, but still, in the late 2000s, the amount of power men still hold at the institution thanks to the embedded fraternity system was outrageous. Why not take every step possible to correct this imbalance? Allowing women to host parties seems like a pretty easy step, with plenty of benefits.
12
Excuse me, but I attended Dartmouth in the 70's and the frats had no power over anything I can think of other than 'frat row'. As to 'the amount of power', there are now more women than men at Dartmouth. So what, exactly, is your point?
The bottom line seems to be that many women here seem to simply wish to outlaw male behavior. Short of that, why not just stop seeing men, or at least men in fraternities. That would kill frat-houses faster than any other action you could take.
The bottom line seems to be that many women here seem to simply wish to outlaw male behavior. Short of that, why not just stop seeing men, or at least men in fraternities. That would kill frat-houses faster than any other action you could take.
1
It always surprises me when I read the alumni magazine (sent to my husband) to see pictures of men who attended Dartmouth (before it admitted women) and are still willing to agree to send their daughters there. Illustrates the ultimate triumph of hope over experience in the male psyche, I guess.
Congrats to Sigma Delta for courage.
Congrats to Sigma Delta for courage.
'Frat row' is exactly what I'm talking about. Since Dartmouth is a rural campus, "frat row" is a basic approximation for social space on campus. Of the 30-some Greek houses on campus, only 3 are female-owned spaces that can host parties—even if there are now more women than men on campus. (Beyond Dartmouth, nationwide, this is so rare that Sigma Delt ended up an example in the Times.)
It would be great if the drinking age were lowered so that frats weren't the stand in for social space, or that all frats were evenly split between genders, but those are longer-term changes. So why shouldn't women host parties too?
It would be great if the drinking age were lowered so that frats weren't the stand in for social space, or that all frats were evenly split between genders, but those are longer-term changes. So why shouldn't women host parties too?
1
I am a Tri Sigma and I can see the concern. Before attending a major university I attended a strictly girl college for 2 years. Church based education without all of the temptations from boys and alcohol, so when I joined the sorority I was already used to all of the regulations concerning alcohol. I did always feel that it wasn't fair for the fraternities to be allowed to have alcohol on site and not the sororities. Students are going to drink no matter what obstacles are thrown in their path. SAFETY concerns alone should be enough to change this antiquated rule!
17
without all of the temptations from boys and alcohol
How 20's and Chicago and Speakeasies and lack of personal responsibility
WHat is a "strictly girls college?" Segregated?
How 20's and Chicago and Speakeasies and lack of personal responsibility
WHat is a "strictly girls college?" Segregated?
Anything to keep women out of the clutches of the fraternities makes sense to me. When my wife was in college in Boston in the early eighties she was raped in a frat at MIT by a frat member, and when I was at UMass in the same period one of my best friends was raped during a keg party in an apartment complex in Amherst. And it's still a jungle out there.
8
It is just a question of trust. College girls who want sex do not have to get a guy drunk or slip him a date rape drug. Frat guys tend to cheat and control the playing field, so to speak. The sorority gals should trust themselves and protect each other. Their punch will be safe and the witnesses their own friends. The question is why isn't this glaringly obvious and why has it not been for as long as girls getting raped in fraternity houses has been national news.
4
Time for adults to start teaching young people about alcohol consumption. Specifically:
-- the history of alcohol consumption
-- how it impacts different people differently
-- how to consume responsibly
-- the dangers of alcohol
-- what to do if someone has had too much to drink
Perhaps that would help. Because alcohol consumption is unlikely to stop anytime soon.
-- the history of alcohol consumption
-- how it impacts different people differently
-- how to consume responsibly
-- the dangers of alcohol
-- what to do if someone has had too much to drink
Perhaps that would help. Because alcohol consumption is unlikely to stop anytime soon.
8
In my day, anyone who used the term "frat" to refer to a college fraternity was an indication that he or she didn't belong to a fraternity or sorority or a not very good one.
1
Getting young women alone and getting young women drunk as a means for young men to have sex with them has been going on for thousands and thousands of years. In the 20's there was a spoof scientific paper going around college campuses called "How to Make Ethyl Fornicate" -- with the chemical process needed to make alcohol. In Hamlet, Shakespeare says "Young men will do it when they come to it" (i.e., when they see the opportunity).
Consequently for thousands of years women took care to have a chaperone or other responsible person with them when they were in potentially dangerous situations with young men, and especially with young men where alcohol was served. On college campuses they lived in sex-segregated housing where there was frequently a "house mother" or some other person to keep an eye out for them. But then in the late 20th century everybody wised up and realized how horribly demeaning and paternalistic and sexist all this was. Now we're so smart that young women go to social gatherings with no responsible adults present and become horribly drunk and stagger off (or are dragged off) to isolated rooms with young men. And, of course, nothing bad ever happens because why would it?
Consequently for thousands of years women took care to have a chaperone or other responsible person with them when they were in potentially dangerous situations with young men, and especially with young men where alcohol was served. On college campuses they lived in sex-segregated housing where there was frequently a "house mother" or some other person to keep an eye out for them. But then in the late 20th century everybody wised up and realized how horribly demeaning and paternalistic and sexist all this was. Now we're so smart that young women go to social gatherings with no responsible adults present and become horribly drunk and stagger off (or are dragged off) to isolated rooms with young men. And, of course, nothing bad ever happens because why would it?
6
Sorry to disagree, but for "thousands of years women" did not "take care to have a chaperone". Women were considered the property of their fathers and then, their husbands in nearly all prosperous societies. The "chaperones" were imposed on women as the safeguard for the value of the "property" not the person.
When more women took control of and responsibility for their own lives and had the financial means to control their marriages and the birth of children, the male requirement to "chaperone their women" diminished. It definitely still exists in many cultures with fundamentalist religions. With freedom comes more risk and significantly more individual responsibility.
When more women took control of and responsibility for their own lives and had the financial means to control their marriages and the birth of children, the male requirement to "chaperone their women" diminished. It definitely still exists in many cultures with fundamentalist religions. With freedom comes more risk and significantly more individual responsibility.
3
So many things conflated in your response (which I suspect you composed off the top of your head) that it's hard to know where to begin. But simplest just to say that even were it true that in all times and in all places in the west since the dawn of culture in the Nile valley women were considered the "property" of fathers and then husbands, this would not automatically prove that measures put into place to protect women were therefore bad! But let's just skip right to the United States of fifty years ago when women were clearly and legally NOT the property of anyone. When women went to all-women colleges where they expected to study for professions. And they still had (other women) looking out for them in the dormitories where they lived. And it still did not occur to them that going to alcohol-fueled unsupervised parties in men's living quarters was a good idea.
When I went to the University of Michigan in 1974, there was exactly ONE non-coed dorm remaining which was called derisively "the Virgin Vault" since obviously only women so undesirable and/or sexually frigid that they were still virgins at 18 would choose to live in such a place.
The irony is that it's the MEN who think co-ed dorms and unsupervised drinking parties are such a great idea but they've brainwashed the WOMEN into thinking that this is "freedom."
When I went to the University of Michigan in 1974, there was exactly ONE non-coed dorm remaining which was called derisively "the Virgin Vault" since obviously only women so undesirable and/or sexually frigid that they were still virgins at 18 would choose to live in such a place.
The irony is that it's the MEN who think co-ed dorms and unsupervised drinking parties are such a great idea but they've brainwashed the WOMEN into thinking that this is "freedom."
But we haven't "wised up" completely. The national sorority alcohol bans are a vestige of the sexist paternalism -- and a big reason women are staggering off to isolated rooms in fraternities instead of going to rooms in their own houses under the watchful eye of their fellow sorority members.
This article makes it sound like American colleges have ubiquitous unrestricted drinking similar to Europe. But the drinking age in the US is 21, and strictly enforced. It's hard to believe that all these quoted underclassmen have easy access to alcohol - they probably do but given draconian enforcement in the US, probably not a whole lot. Actually, likely less than in the past.
I lived in a dorm and then in off-campus apartments while at two Big Ten schools, and never understood the appeal of the Greek system: "rush" seems like an adolescent popularity contest, and then there's all the hazing. Date rape seems natural in that context. So why would smart, progressive people volunteer to live in fraternities and sororities in the first place? They must be seeking some kind of peer validation.
8
I went to GWU in the 70s and the Greek system there was very minor, somewhere between invisible and a joke. When I razzed a good friend of mine who was at Tulane, however, about his joining a fraternity, he said to me that if you didn't belong to a fraternity or sorority down there, you had no social life and nobody would associate with you - I don't know how true that was or if it was just PR to freshmen to scare them to joining but it did suggest to me that it was a different place then where I was.
1
There is no more diverse a group of people than all those who have, at some point, thought alcohol was the answer to all their problems.
2
Lower the drinking age to 14 so adolescents can get drinking to excess out of their system *before* they move out and are on their own. As it stands, you have the perfect storm of conflicting responsibilities and liberty that often ends with, at least, regrets or, at worst, rape or death.
4
How about if young men and women stop drinking like pigs altogether?
Encouraging even more drinking seems counterproductive and misses the point.
The whole "Oh well...college students are going to drink" mentality only avoids the real problem and completely neglects accountability on everyone's part.
Encouraging even more drinking seems counterproductive and misses the point.
The whole "Oh well...college students are going to drink" mentality only avoids the real problem and completely neglects accountability on everyone's part.
2
Allowing sororities to compete as venues with fraternities needn't encourage "more" drinking, it just shifts it to a place that's marginally safer for women. Insisting on a prudish "accountability," not to mention the blindingly unrealistic prohibition of alcohol proposed in many comments, does nothing but leave the home-court advantage where it is now: with fraternity members.
This idea is an old one and it is called playing the home field.
1
How about stopping the parties based on alcohol and drugs alone? Don't these kids have a clue how to live without it>
Julie Johnson misses the obvious point: why is it acceptable that good times at frat parties means out of control drinking that by definition leads to lowered inhibitions and unacceptable sexual behavior? How many more incidents of rape and sexual assault will it take to convince her? Allowing the fraternities to assume the risk and the cost assumes that the behavior is acceptable, expected and should continue?
3
Unless all members of fraternity/sorority culture are beginning to be alcoholics, I do not see why there is this focus on drinking. And please note, in my state of New York, it is illegal to drink if under 21 - and I do not think these are graduate student parties. Any place, any time.
1
PC nonsense. And the outright female apologist explanation of " one of the key reasons fraternity members feel so entitled to women's bodies, because women have no ownership of the social scene" is ridiculous. Can that person really be serious, that although women are in the process of becoming college educated, the fact that they get drunk and put themselves in compromising situations or make drunken bad choices is really the fault of the guys because women don't own the social scene? So long as this "I am a victim" mentality is common in college women this scourge will never get any better. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT apologizing for male behavior that contributes to this problem, but if you don't want to risk an incident don't become drunk at these parties ladies! When both parties to a sexual situation are heavily intoxicated it is impossible t for an impartial fact finder to figure out after the incident what the "truth" is, trust me I tried to do it as a government attorney for many years.
6
You've obviously never been to a raucous, open, alcohol-fueled party at a sorority. With members (women) stationed at the door, serving the beer, going in and out of the private rooms (where they live), and otherwise in control of the house, it really is a different scene.
1
Legal aged men and women should be allowed to serve what they want at their parties, but with that comes great responsibility. As legal adults serving alcohol, we are responsible for our guests. Hosts need to patrol or at least be aware of what guests are doing, are they safe, are they inebriated, who will be sure they get home safely...
Alcohol seems to be the key to most if not all of these allegations (not all rapes on campus happen at fraternities). Where the alcohol is served is not the issue. Alcohol is like gasoline and everyone who is inebriated is carrying a lit match--where they drop the match is of little consequence.
During my college orientation, the first day was spent on Rape Awareness and this was 30 + years ago. That information was clearly timeless--walk in groups, never go to a party alone, NEVER GO UPSTAIRS, and drink responsibly. Only women went to this.
Men and women need to go to sessions that teach how to keep one safe in any kind of dangerous situation and though it may be too late, learning how to treat others with respect including what means yes, what means no and how to communicate those messages clearly, all needs to happen.
Truly, it all begins before a child sets off for college--no one grows up in a vacuum, treating others with respect and having enough empathy not to attack someone begins and is reinforced at home.
Alcohol seems to be the key to most if not all of these allegations (not all rapes on campus happen at fraternities). Where the alcohol is served is not the issue. Alcohol is like gasoline and everyone who is inebriated is carrying a lit match--where they drop the match is of little consequence.
During my college orientation, the first day was spent on Rape Awareness and this was 30 + years ago. That information was clearly timeless--walk in groups, never go to a party alone, NEVER GO UPSTAIRS, and drink responsibly. Only women went to this.
Men and women need to go to sessions that teach how to keep one safe in any kind of dangerous situation and though it may be too late, learning how to treat others with respect including what means yes, what means no and how to communicate those messages clearly, all needs to happen.
Truly, it all begins before a child sets off for college--no one grows up in a vacuum, treating others with respect and having enough empathy not to attack someone begins and is reinforced at home.
53
Shall we surmise that all the girls at the Sorority House are the same age?
That those 'of age' will be sure not to let those not so grab a drinkie or
so?
This is absurd.
That those 'of age' will be sure not to let those not so grab a drinkie or
so?
This is absurd.
1
The issue is really that the parties, fraternity or not, are controlled by men and are held, at least partially, to incapacitate and prey on their female guests. Being good hosts in the traditional sense is not even on the to-do list for these parties. Even if non-alcoholic beverages are be served, that won't help either, as the punch can have other incapacitating ingredients added. The issue is, as the women in this article state, the mentality of entitlement to women's bodies and the lack of fear of the consequences for their criminal behavior.
i have never understood this idiotic "walk in groups" advice that is doled out to women like infantilizing pablum. women are not some miasma that moves and thinks in synchronicity and acts with one communal brain.
men are free to leave a location when they choose, with whom they choose, or alone, if they so choose. until women have that same freedom, this is not a free state, and women need to wake up and notice the hostility and condescension contained in that advice.
stop accepting this idea that you need to walk around with other people (with one man? or with two other women? do 2 women = 1 man? is that the exchange rate?), like a child who needs an escort.
men are free to leave a location when they choose, with whom they choose, or alone, if they so choose. until women have that same freedom, this is not a free state, and women need to wake up and notice the hostility and condescension contained in that advice.
stop accepting this idea that you need to walk around with other people (with one man? or with two other women? do 2 women = 1 man? is that the exchange rate?), like a child who needs an escort.
1
Seriously? It's the 21st century.
Just abolish fraternities and sororities.
(I await the replies saying that Greeks have charity events and provide networks, blah, blahblah...lots of ways to perform charity and make networks that don't involve drunken sexual encounters with dubious consent)
Just abolish fraternities and sororities.
(I await the replies saying that Greeks have charity events and provide networks, blah, blahblah...lots of ways to perform charity and make networks that don't involve drunken sexual encounters with dubious consent)
15
Seems these young women are at least looking to change the parameters in a way that espouses common sense rather than living in some illusory alternate and idealized universe where kids don't drink.
College drinking and parties have been a problem since long before I went to college----over thirty years ago. I have watched a gazillion campaigns come and go and none seem to FIX the problem. Every year, we lose kids to all kinds of incidents that begin with a drink. Why? Because "free" for the first time, and loose in an unstructured yet pressure filled environment, kids see drinking as a means for fun, relaxation and the loosening of inhibitions. Less addressed is the root cause of the need for alcohol and/or how to manage it.
Is it time we got real that "just say no" ain't working.
Long before now, even, we have taught them all about the allure of alcohol and drugs (why deny it?) but also some of the very real consequences, which we have been sure are graphically illustrated. Long before my kids ever hit college, I will allow them to drink in our home so they can experience, on their own, what is truly the right "limit" for them. Our hope is to empower them because we believe there is a disconnect between what happens in college and what we wish would happen. We will try and arm them with facts, options, experiences that help address the reasons for over drinking because it seems adults, eventually, do learn how to coexist in a world with alcohol.
College drinking and parties have been a problem since long before I went to college----over thirty years ago. I have watched a gazillion campaigns come and go and none seem to FIX the problem. Every year, we lose kids to all kinds of incidents that begin with a drink. Why? Because "free" for the first time, and loose in an unstructured yet pressure filled environment, kids see drinking as a means for fun, relaxation and the loosening of inhibitions. Less addressed is the root cause of the need for alcohol and/or how to manage it.
Is it time we got real that "just say no" ain't working.
Long before now, even, we have taught them all about the allure of alcohol and drugs (why deny it?) but also some of the very real consequences, which we have been sure are graphically illustrated. Long before my kids ever hit college, I will allow them to drink in our home so they can experience, on their own, what is truly the right "limit" for them. Our hope is to empower them because we believe there is a disconnect between what happens in college and what we wish would happen. We will try and arm them with facts, options, experiences that help address the reasons for over drinking because it seems adults, eventually, do learn how to coexist in a world with alcohol.
4
What sort of sorority would even consider having a bunch of drunken men over to their home to cause havoc, chaos, trash the place, and probably pee all over the house too? There is a reason many people in general choose not to have parties in their own home, and visit others' places. College drinking takes this to the extreme, because it isn't just a 2 drink office party, it is a 12 drink drunken brawl. And if it isn't, it's considered no fun.
1
Read the Vanity Fair article about frats and insurance. It will be very clear why sororities wont allow booze. Even if they did it would be controlled in ways that are nearly impossible and would of course only be open to the handful of students over the age of 21.
1
Well, obviously national sororities won't allow booze. The answer isn't to throw up one's hands; it is for schools to encourage local sororities and discourage if not prohibit national affiliations.
Fraternity culture (with some laudable exceptions) is pervaded by a sense of entitlement, rowdyism and freedom from consequences. More's the pity, these young men are likely to go on to become business, political and professional leaders. Hard to believe that an earlier frat generation (for whom consequences were unknown) haven't set the tone of our entire national discourse on income and gender inequality, violence and justice.
Young women are simply much better off to stay home and drink than to become socialized into that atmosphere.
Young women are simply much better off to stay home and drink than to become socialized into that atmosphere.
109
Really? Why do you think the women join those organizations?
To "...stay home..." and drink?
To "...stay home..." and drink?
3
Hey, come on -- those frat boys go on to become responsible world leaders, like George "Let's Invade a Country at Random" W. Bush!
2
The stereotype of every fraternity as some sort of Animal House is just that. I lived in a fraternity for two years and saw plenty of drunken behavior; but I lived in a dormitory for a year and saw the same thing there.
You get a bunch of hormone filled young people in a place and get them wrecked on booze, drugs or both - and bad things happen. I've read a lot of stories over the past month or two about campus rape (probably owing to the made up piece in Rolling Stone) and its shocking to me how many of the victims have not just been drinking, but have passed out and generally lost control of themselves, their surroundings and their situations.
The notion of a supervising force to prevent this is common sense. But then, sneaking away from it and pushing boundaries in the quest for maturity seems like part of the drill. Fraternities, bad; everything else, good is overly-simplistic and trivializes the challenge of protecting immature people from doing stupid and harmful things.
You get a bunch of hormone filled young people in a place and get them wrecked on booze, drugs or both - and bad things happen. I've read a lot of stories over the past month or two about campus rape (probably owing to the made up piece in Rolling Stone) and its shocking to me how many of the victims have not just been drinking, but have passed out and generally lost control of themselves, their surroundings and their situations.
The notion of a supervising force to prevent this is common sense. But then, sneaking away from it and pushing boundaries in the quest for maturity seems like part of the drill. Fraternities, bad; everything else, good is overly-simplistic and trivializes the challenge of protecting immature people from doing stupid and harmful things.
2
Not allowing female students to drink while allowing less responsible male students to drink is ludicrous and infantalizng. Yes, allow women students to drink, responsibly. They're parties are less likely to devolve into drinking games, hazing and rape fests. Almost most importantly--zero tolerance for rapists and a culture of rape jokes that are both all too prevalent in society and on campus. At the beginning of each school year, female students are herded off into single-sex discussion groups to learn how to avoid being raped. How about instead teaching male students that they don't get to engage in rape as a school sanctioned extra-curricular activity?!
34
You do understand, I hope, that "zero tolerance for rape jokes" would be flatly unconstitutional at public universities?
2
I'm not sure that, "adopting" frat behavior for Sororities is the way to go. The idea here is not to plan an even "better" party than the guys.
Why not focus on skills like; Math and Physics that will give their members a leg up on the completion, while the guys are parting ?
Why not focus on skills like; Math and Physics that will give their members a leg up on the completion, while the guys are parting ?
6
I think you missed the point of the article...kids are going to drink. Period. No amount of lecturing and fantasizing is going to change that. Since these girls are going to drink one way or the other, it is far better that they drink in their own house than go to the frat houses which are pretty much made to facilitate sexual assault. They'll have plenty of support if they drink too much, they don't have to walk or find a ride back, and they can control who goes in or out. They don't want to party "better," they want to party safer and frankly its an excellent idea.
4
"There is no such thing as a free lunch." If someone is serving free drinks, go somewhere else. Buy your own.
3
This is a great idea and way overdue. Why shouldn't sororities have the same drinking privileges as the frats? And the control they would exert is also way overdue. Date rape via alcohol is one of the oldest tricks in frat's book.
Of course, alcohol is a legal, hard drug, which is also potentially deadly and physically addictive. Here in NH, Ivy league superstar Dartmouth College has been plagued by embarrassing fraternity horror show for decades. The movie "Animal House" was supposedly inspired by stories from Dartmouth.
With the legal pot movement gathering speed across America, new, and far safer options, will hopefully soon be available to students. Alcohol is very "dis-inhibiting" to many people, and the ghastly deaths and social wreckage from it are devastating to families.
Of course, alcohol is a legal, hard drug, which is also potentially deadly and physically addictive. Here in NH, Ivy league superstar Dartmouth College has been plagued by embarrassing fraternity horror show for decades. The movie "Animal House" was supposedly inspired by stories from Dartmouth.
With the legal pot movement gathering speed across America, new, and far safer options, will hopefully soon be available to students. Alcohol is very "dis-inhibiting" to many people, and the ghastly deaths and social wreckage from it are devastating to families.
1
Does anyone care that the culture of alcohol consumption on college campuses, when it involves anyone under the age of 21, is illegal? The point is this: why is it just accepted that there will, 1. be alcohol present at parties and, 2. that consumption to the point of drunkenness is thoroughly normal?
If there is a culture among men that encourages sexual aggressiveness and rape, alcohol is the fuel. It lowers inhibitions (the main benefit), decreases judgment and "gives permission" for people, men and women, to do things they would normally hesitate to do.
Why should all of this be discussed as if gulping down massive amounts of booze is normal, without any underlying question?
It seems, also, that "doing shots", taking straight whisky in a single throw back to the mouth, has become a mandatory right of passage. "Hey, everyone does it." This increases the speed at which one can become drunk and decreases judgment about how much is too much. The practice is portrayed in popular movies as widespread and without negative consequences.
One idea to lessen the "get drunk fast" impulse would be to make it legal for fully enrolled college students to buy alcohol at 19 or 20. By creating a special advantage, we might create a climate of higher responsibility, at least for some.
Doug Terry
If there is a culture among men that encourages sexual aggressiveness and rape, alcohol is the fuel. It lowers inhibitions (the main benefit), decreases judgment and "gives permission" for people, men and women, to do things they would normally hesitate to do.
Why should all of this be discussed as if gulping down massive amounts of booze is normal, without any underlying question?
It seems, also, that "doing shots", taking straight whisky in a single throw back to the mouth, has become a mandatory right of passage. "Hey, everyone does it." This increases the speed at which one can become drunk and decreases judgment about how much is too much. The practice is portrayed in popular movies as widespread and without negative consequences.
One idea to lessen the "get drunk fast" impulse would be to make it legal for fully enrolled college students to buy alcohol at 19 or 20. By creating a special advantage, we might create a climate of higher responsibility, at least for some.
Doug Terry
4
I have been on large college campuses with large Greek systems. Mixers happen all the time, but it seems the article is talking about the classic college shindig, AKA the frat party.
It seems to me there are very, very good, obvious, and basic reasons sorority sisters have not been too keen on reversing tradition, and having a horde of frat boys descending onto where they live. I am sure that at the finer schools,manners are prim as a matter of course, but some readers may not be aware, things can get a bit shaggy on your average US college campus.
But there certainly should not be any artificial obstacles to sororities giving it a whirl. College is a time of learning, after all. So good luck, and always make sure you know a solid contractor who can do major house repairs, fast.
It seems to me there are very, very good, obvious, and basic reasons sorority sisters have not been too keen on reversing tradition, and having a horde of frat boys descending onto where they live. I am sure that at the finer schools,manners are prim as a matter of course, but some readers may not be aware, things can get a bit shaggy on your average US college campus.
But there certainly should not be any artificial obstacles to sororities giving it a whirl. College is a time of learning, after all. So good luck, and always make sure you know a solid contractor who can do major house repairs, fast.
1
I'm not clear about something. Does anyone check that participants are of legal drinking age at these campus parties?
5
No. Of course not.
when the drinking age was 18, we heard fewer of these stories. Perhaps that's because people were learning responsible drinking when they were still living with their parents. And they got their teenage rebellion out of their system before college.
6
Since when did the drinking age change back to 18. Or maybe college campuses are exempt from the drinking age laws. Stop the campus drinking, esp in the Greek houses. It is against the law and universities need to SAY NO!
Follow the law and rape on campus associated with drinking will drop. Parents of non-drinking age children in universities/colleges should demand the schools follow the laws. Frat and sorority houses are not EMBASSIES that are immune to the US laws, state and federal.
Follow the law and rape on campus associated with drinking will drop. Parents of non-drinking age children in universities/colleges should demand the schools follow the laws. Frat and sorority houses are not EMBASSIES that are immune to the US laws, state and federal.
8
Or they'll "follow the law" and the parties will all move off campus where the administration will have exactly zero control. Now you have to drive to the parties instead of walk so drunk driving will rise; girls will want to stay over the house so assault will probably increase; and the college will have no idea what is going on where. So as "original" as that idea is, it simply won't work.
1
If sorority women have to ask whether it is safer for them to ask the fraternity men to come to their parties than to attend parties in fraternity houses perhaps they are looking in the wrong places and at the wrong men for dating (and marriage). I attended plenty of parties on Greek Row in college as a photographer. The frat brothers nearly always invited me to stay after my work was done, and, with the exception of one fraternity, I always declined because, to quote one young woman in this article, it was a lions den and women were clearly the prey. What I could look past with a great deal of unease then as a 20something, I would not be able to as a woman of 52. The alcohol was there to get attractive young women as intoxicated as possible so these entitled, aggressive but often insecure young men could get "laid". An entire film genre seems to treat this theme as a joke but it was quite real then and quite real now. I am so glad that I don't have a daughter in college but I do have nieces who I have been sending these stories to (copied to their mom).
14
Who says college women should be looking for men for dating or marriage?
It's that kind of Fifties mindset that is behind the national sororities' efforts to maintain their members' dependence on fraternities for socializing.
It's that kind of Fifties mindset that is behind the national sororities' efforts to maintain their members' dependence on fraternities for socializing.
Not saying they should be looking for marriage - I didn't get married until my mid forties after already establishing a career. However, I've spent enough time around sororities and college campuses to know that dating and marriage is on the minds of sorority women who tend toward more conservative, traditional values. Even among liberal feminist women, including art school grads such as myself, dating and getting married are valued. I'm a woman and have these conversations with other women.
Did the idea of NOT getting totally smashed ever occur to anyone?????
64
“It’s just the way it is,” he said. “We buy the alcohol, we serve the alcohol, they drink it. We all have a good time.”
Is this about sexual assault or responsible drinking (or irresponsible) or is this about a college culture that says students must get drunk and party? Why in the world is so vitaly necessary to get so damn drunk that you make yourself vulnerable? Why? Why do the men feel that they have to get the girls blind drunk? To have sex? Certainly not for a meaning relationship. I question whether or not everyone is having a good time. I'm not living in a time warp. Frat parties and frat boys have been around for a long time and they're not going away any time soon. The guys and the gals too, want to have fun. They want to party and be drunk. But I'm certain that the young women do not want to be sexually assaulted and raped. And I'm pretty sure the guys don't want to wind up with criminal charges. Somehow there needs to be a culture change that encourages and welcomes different behavior and more personal responsibility. Easier said than done. Banning alcohol is not going work. The party will move off campus. Maybe more than a chaperones they need a referee. Like the one you find in a wrestling ring that pulls people apart. The college administrations should be more aggressive too and make certain that the men clearly know and understand that getting women drunk for sex without consent will result in criminal charges, jail and a ruined life or two.
Is this about sexual assault or responsible drinking (or irresponsible) or is this about a college culture that says students must get drunk and party? Why in the world is so vitaly necessary to get so damn drunk that you make yourself vulnerable? Why? Why do the men feel that they have to get the girls blind drunk? To have sex? Certainly not for a meaning relationship. I question whether or not everyone is having a good time. I'm not living in a time warp. Frat parties and frat boys have been around for a long time and they're not going away any time soon. The guys and the gals too, want to have fun. They want to party and be drunk. But I'm certain that the young women do not want to be sexually assaulted and raped. And I'm pretty sure the guys don't want to wind up with criminal charges. Somehow there needs to be a culture change that encourages and welcomes different behavior and more personal responsibility. Easier said than done. Banning alcohol is not going work. The party will move off campus. Maybe more than a chaperones they need a referee. Like the one you find in a wrestling ring that pulls people apart. The college administrations should be more aggressive too and make certain that the men clearly know and understand that getting women drunk for sex without consent will result in criminal charges, jail and a ruined life or two.
7
"Getting women drunk for sex?" Are you kidding? Girls should never get drunk in the first place...it's called taking responsibility for your actions
So sororities should allow alcohol. But for the majority of their members it is not legal to drink. I see no national movement afoot to raise the drinking age.
It is time that laws that are on the books start to be enforced. It is illegal to serve alcohol to people below the drinking age, these frats need to be raided by the police - and guess what - rape of young drunk girls will stop.
Unless alcohol laws on the books are enforced by colleges, there is a green light inviting rape.
It is time that laws that are on the books start to be enforced. It is illegal to serve alcohol to people below the drinking age, these frats need to be raided by the police - and guess what - rape of young drunk girls will stop.
Unless alcohol laws on the books are enforced by colleges, there is a green light inviting rape.
10
Some commentators have expressed the opinion that maintaining the minimum legal drinking age at its unrealistically high current level has been counterproductive by leaving frat parties as the only place where younger students can indulge. A cocktail or two at a bar under the watchful eye of a trained bartender would be far less fraught with danger.
Police raids to enforce ill-considered laws aren't going to solve anything. We might, however, consider a national movement to *lower* the drinking age. It's time that the laws that are on the books be worthy of enforcement.
Police raids to enforce ill-considered laws aren't going to solve anything. We might, however, consider a national movement to *lower* the drinking age. It's time that the laws that are on the books be worthy of enforcement.
2
You must realize how unrealistic this is. There are thousands of colleges in the US, and on any given weekend night there are probably hundreds of parties involving alcohol on each and every one of them. Should colleges have police forces dedicated to busting each and every one? Or should the officers just stop doing important things and focus on that? And what should be the punishment for the students? The drinking age is already enforced as hard as possible at most, if not all colleges. But it is far more effective to tacitly allow it and punish the offenders than try to change something that has been an integral part of college culture for decades.
1
Are sorority girls so mindless that they are "pushed into fraternity houses" to party? Why does alcohol need to be part of the picture? Why drink to excess so that your judgement about random sex is impaired? Why expose under age college students to alcohol. Many adults have fun without alcohol. Sororities could try that for a change.
13
What if everyone drank less, or at least in moderation?
23
So once again we have an issue which would be a non issue if people took responsibility for their own actions. "Oh, I got so drunk and they took advantage of me." There should never be the phrase" oh, I got so drunk" preceding anything. Granted if a women is drugged and abused- throw the book at both the perpetrator and the frat - jail time and close the frat house down. Punish all because you know someone else knew and to stand by and watch is- in my estimation- worse. Then frat houses will start self policing and realize that the honor of all is at stake. Easy and done.
12
It's about power and entitlement, not women's behavior.
You are stating that women should limit and police their behavior, or it's their fault what men do to them. What century are you in?
Next is strict dress codes and curfews for women and female children, so they don't also invite rape.
I agree that drunkeness increases the chances of bad behavior. Universities should require mandatory security at frat parties, with the policy of the party limited to one or two open common rooms and security at all doors.
. The universities should make it clear that all assaults are reported directly to the police, with no exceptions and the stats are made public. I personally think women should take back the power by deciding to have a designated buddy system for each woman at a party.
You are stating that women should limit and police their behavior, or it's their fault what men do to them. What century are you in?
Next is strict dress codes and curfews for women and female children, so they don't also invite rape.
I agree that drunkeness increases the chances of bad behavior. Universities should require mandatory security at frat parties, with the policy of the party limited to one or two open common rooms and security at all doors.
. The universities should make it clear that all assaults are reported directly to the police, with no exceptions and the stats are made public. I personally think women should take back the power by deciding to have a designated buddy system for each woman at a party.
3
Driving drunk is dangerous. Going to class drunk is idiotic. Studying while drunk is also pretty dumb. Taking your SATS while drunk is moronic. Why? Because your brain doesn't work right. Because your inhibitions are down and you cannot control yourself. You're not capable of making good decisions. You're not capable - let's just say - of knowing right from wrong. As long as women insist on getting drunk and surrounding themselves with drunk men - who are also incapable of making good decisions and controlling themselves - they are putting themselves in danger. I will challenge anyone's feminist credentials, but I am tired of hearing about their god-given right to binge drink and "be protected" and stay safe in dangerous situations. Drunk college boys are/can be dangerous creatures, and (I would venture) especially those who need the raucous, aggressive, "let's-get-trashed" attitude that seems to be prevalent in fraternities. (I actually went to college and did not hang out with these guys. You couldn't have paid me to get near them.) Women, find other guys. Find other things to do on Thurs, Friday and Saturday nights. Go to a play, a concert, a movie, work in homeless shelter, paint a painting, write a poem. Stop being so conventional - get smart, be creative, do something other than find a place to drink "safely." (PS No, I am not "victim blaming." And no, I am not excusing or condoning rape.)
69
Agreed!!!
1
I take issue with the idea that "drunk college boys are dangerous creatures" when it comes to rape. Dangerous behind the wheel of a car? For sure. Dangerous on the balcony of the frat house? Definitely. Dangerously stupid. Sadly.
But it's been shown time and again that most campus rapes are committed by a small percentage of serial recidivists who are quite calculating about their attacks. There is not a rapist lurking in every man, just looking for a few keg stands to make his escape. The idea that every man is a rapist, barely holding himself in check with sobriety and civilization's codes, is as disgusting and damaging to men as its corollary - lock yourselves in purdah or get raped - is to women.
But it's been shown time and again that most campus rapes are committed by a small percentage of serial recidivists who are quite calculating about their attacks. There is not a rapist lurking in every man, just looking for a few keg stands to make his escape. The idea that every man is a rapist, barely holding himself in check with sobriety and civilization's codes, is as disgusting and damaging to men as its corollary - lock yourselves in purdah or get raped - is to women.
3
Well argued lizzie8484. :-)
So much attention on preventing rape on college campus (those with fraternities and sororities especially) and so little attention on the rest of the population. Inequality has many faces.
2
Regardless of location, any time a woman is very drunk, or just drunk, she is in danger of being assaulted. It is an ugly truth, but one no woman, or any person who cares about her, can afford to disregard.
17
I was a member of a local sorority in college; there, all sororities were local, and half of the fraternities were as well. We all had houses, and we all had parties, where alcohol was allowed, as they were off-campus locations. The parties at a sorority house were as well attended as those at a fraternity house, but there were a lower incidence of disturbances. Correlation doesn't equal causation, but we tried to focus on keeping alcohol in the hands of those 21 and older in our house parties (private parties were a different matter).
I find it interesting that national sororities keep alcohol-free zones in their houses, and while it makes sense from an insurance stand point, it does beg the question of creating "safer zones" for parties and for those who attend, especially if they are female.
But in the end, respect for your fellow person needs to be paramount, whether they be male or female. There's no excuse for forcing yourself upon someone else.
I find it interesting that national sororities keep alcohol-free zones in their houses, and while it makes sense from an insurance stand point, it does beg the question of creating "safer zones" for parties and for those who attend, especially if they are female.
But in the end, respect for your fellow person needs to be paramount, whether they be male or female. There's no excuse for forcing yourself upon someone else.
9
I think this is an interesting idea and should be tried, but it isn't sufficent by any stretch of the imagination.
I think that part of orientation should be a refresher on the effects of alcohol and how they can be mitigated(wait 20 minutes between drinks, that sort of thing) for men and women.
Also part of orientation(or a required class) should be how to appropriately interact with other people. Topics covered should be consent, basic empathy, and so forth.
Furthermore the default for any rape accusations should be to believe the woman until strong evidence is submitted otherwise. Also, all accusations should be sent over to the relevant authorities and the data(edited for anonymity) should be made public on a quarterly basis. If potential rapists see that 1,000 rapes were referred to the police that might dissuade them from raping.
I think that part of orientation should be a refresher on the effects of alcohol and how they can be mitigated(wait 20 minutes between drinks, that sort of thing) for men and women.
Also part of orientation(or a required class) should be how to appropriately interact with other people. Topics covered should be consent, basic empathy, and so forth.
Furthermore the default for any rape accusations should be to believe the woman until strong evidence is submitted otherwise. Also, all accusations should be sent over to the relevant authorities and the data(edited for anonymity) should be made public on a quarterly basis. If potential rapists see that 1,000 rapes were referred to the police that might dissuade them from raping.
1
Your comment was great until I came to a screeching halt at "the default for any rape accusations should be to believe the woman until strong evidence is submitted otherwise." I hope you're kidding, because if this is the way society is going we're in huge trouble. Why exactly should this be the standard? The criminal justice system has long succeeded on the idea of "innocent until proven guilty," and this should be no different. Women who claim to have been sexually assaulted do not sit on some pedestal where their word is sacrosanct. As accusers, they have the exact same burden of proof as anyone. Remember the Duke lacrosse case? Or the more recent Rolling Stone controversy? That is truly a disgusting suggestion. I agree that rape/assault accusations should be sent to the police, where the woman (or man) must submit hard evidence that a crime took place--rape kit, witness testimony, photos/video, etc.
If alcohol is the problem, will making it more available in more places solve the problem? Not likely. But is alcohol really the problem?
So many parents today seem to believe in an unrealistic ability and obligation to protect their children from every real and imagined danger, mistake, and disappointment by monitoring and controlling and intervening in every detail of their lives. Hence, their children arrive at college with little practical experience of decision-making, personal responsibility, and consequences. And now, without the parental interventions that have always shielded them, they are tragically vulnerable to their own impulses as well as the predatory impulses of the equally immature people around them. They are truly poor little lambs who lose their way so easily; they certainly don't need more party venues, least of all venues providing an illusion of safety!
So many parents today seem to believe in an unrealistic ability and obligation to protect their children from every real and imagined danger, mistake, and disappointment by monitoring and controlling and intervening in every detail of their lives. Hence, their children arrive at college with little practical experience of decision-making, personal responsibility, and consequences. And now, without the parental interventions that have always shielded them, they are tragically vulnerable to their own impulses as well as the predatory impulses of the equally immature people around them. They are truly poor little lambs who lose their way so easily; they certainly don't need more party venues, least of all venues providing an illusion of safety!
56
Regardless of whether alcohol is the problem, I hardly think it is unrealistic to try and protect our children, particularly girls, from the prospect of being sexually assaulted. The idea of sexual assault at a party being an "unfortunate mistake" is part of the culture that allows this behavior. Parents do have the responsibility to teach children how to be responsible, but in this particular case, I think it's more important that parents teach their boys what sexual assault is, how it affects people, and why they shouldn't do it. Alcohol doesn't cause sexual assault, cultural practices cause sexual assault.
16
"Is alcohol really the problem?" Yes. (And drugs.)
You are right!
I think it's a good idea. One of the challenges universities face is their inability to move drinking into responsible surroundings because of unrealistic minimum age laws. University presidents have called for a change in the law, but that isn't likely to happen.
I think it's also urgent that we address the real problem here, which is binge drinking. Women have to understand that they're putting themselves at risk when they binge drink, or go off with men who have been drinking excessively. So many of these rapes and unwanted encounters are sadly unnecessary.
Many point out that it is the rapists who should change their behavior, and of course they should, but there are always going to be some bad actors and part of life consists of driving defensively. I mean, nobody should steal car radios, but that doesn't make it wise to leave the doors unlocked.
I think it's also urgent that we address the real problem here, which is binge drinking. Women have to understand that they're putting themselves at risk when they binge drink, or go off with men who have been drinking excessively. So many of these rapes and unwanted encounters are sadly unnecessary.
Many point out that it is the rapists who should change their behavior, and of course they should, but there are always going to be some bad actors and part of life consists of driving defensively. I mean, nobody should steal car radios, but that doesn't make it wise to leave the doors unlocked.
33
Went to a college here in the city. Have never understood any of this fraternity nonsense.
98
Women:don't get drunk to the point where you lose control of yourself and require other people to protect you. Period.
86
That still does not give anybody the right to rape you.! EVER.
1
What about telling the MEN not to get so drunk that they don't realize what real consent looks like? How about telling the rapists not to use drugs and alcohol to "score".
3
And what's your advice to women who limit themselves to one drink, which happens to be spiked with sedatives?
I love retro as much as the next gal, but let's leave victim blaming in the history books.
I love retro as much as the next gal, but let's leave victim blaming in the history books.
3
I think this is a welcome change. The recent study written up in the book Paying for the Party done at the University of Indiana seems to confirm that the current system inadvertently places the women in a very subordinate position and encourages the men to demean them in many ways.
18
If you're a woman and you drink to the point of impairment you put yourself in a "subordinate" position. Got nobody to blame but yourself sister.
6
Indeed. The current system is also somewhat infantalizing-- "girls" pay attention to being "girly" in their houses (the amount of time spent on coming up with decorations, cutesy cards, cutesy clothing, etc for sorority rush is just one example), while the guys throw parties. Not to say that sororities should exhibit the same excesses that some frats do, but it would be great for sorority women to be able to claim more ownership of co-ed socializing.
2
What nonsense. The answer is to ban alcohol at frat parties, not extend it to sororities.
60
How can they do that? They can't even ban alcohol at high school parties.
5
They could if adults took teenage drinking as seriously as the problem -- and it is a huge problem -- merits.
Becuase prohibition worked really well...
4
We need to dial back the drinking on campus for many reasons other than rape. My former boss, who drank herself out of a job eventually, really ramped up the booze fueled life as a sorority sister. These are smart people; they can figure out a better way to comfort and entertain themselves.
64
Does anyone miss the point that serving alcohol to minors is illegal and most college students are under 21 years old?
114
Yeah, ridiculous law because when you make an unrealistic pie-in-the-sky law like that nobody obeys it. In fact, it seems to make the problem worse because it prevents the universities from holding supervised parties. College presidents have asked for legalization for precisely that reason. Our goal here should be to encourage responsible alcohol consumption, not to make 20-year-olds act like they're 6.
7
It shouldn't be illegal. Put the drinking age back at 18 where it rightly belongs and teach young adults to drink properly. Once they're old enough to live away from home they should be old enough to drink responsively.
12
Realistic or not it is the law. Speaking as an attorney who represents kids charged with underage drinking and DUI. The laws in some states on juveniles are draconian. Talk about ruining a life...
"Responsible" drinking is kind of cute. We go to such lengths to legitimize drugs of choice. But there is something to be said for only have a couple rather than a dozen. It's hard to understand the allure of drinking. It never appealed to me enough to keep repeating feeling that awful afterwards. Once or twice was enough. It makes me think some of these kids have more than a little problem.
31
Binge drinkers are a minority, but a significant one. And I think you're right, it's a real problem, not just because it leads to rape and other irresponsible behavior but because it causes brain damage, particularly in growing, younger brains. It seems to me that the best solution is to move the line to where it should be -- responsible drinking as opposed to the unrealistic no drinking at all. But our society seems to like making unenforceable laws against drinking, pot, smoking, prostitution, gambling, even anal sex.
That being said, there's a tradeoff since while legalization reduces the worst behavior it does typically increase the prevalence of the behavior.
That being said, there's a tradeoff since while legalization reduces the worst behavior it does typically increase the prevalence of the behavior.
4
'It's hard to understand the allure of drinking. It never appealed to me enough to keep repeating feeling that awful afterwards.'
Carolyn, if you had been drinking responsibly, you wouldn't have felt awful afterwards. Responsible drinking, for those who know what it is and enjoy it, is actually quite pleasurable. That is why responsible drinking has been part of adulthood for millennia.
Carolyn, if you had been drinking responsibly, you wouldn't have felt awful afterwards. Responsible drinking, for those who know what it is and enjoy it, is actually quite pleasurable. That is why responsible drinking has been part of adulthood for millennia.
2
Regina, you have assumed too much. I do like to have a little but that is it. My point was about so many who just binged all the time when in college which I didn't. It didn't take me long to figure out it wasn't smart to do that.
Learn how to drink responsibly. That goes for the men on campus as well as the ladies. When you become an adult and are invited over someone's house for dinner or a party, you're not going to do shots until you barf on the living room rug and end up sleeping half-naked in the bathtub. That might fly when you're in college but it won't get you asked back to anyone house when you enter adulthood.
Learn how to drink responsibly. You don't need to have 18 beers, 6 shots, and 4 bong hits to have fun. Have a drink or two and enjoy yourself - like an adult.
Learn how to drink responsibly. You don't need to have 18 beers, 6 shots, and 4 bong hits to have fun. Have a drink or two and enjoy yourself - like an adult.
145
Many, including many college presidents, say that it would really help if we didn't have unrealistic laws that force drinking underground. If you do that, if you make it illegal and against the rules, where will people turn? To the rowdiest, seediest elements, in this case the frats.
33
Then drink so that they can have sex. Most of these children have never had sex when not drunk.
1
Why no mention of undercover cops, women and men, working these frats with the worst reputations, where repeat offenders hang out. Discuss with those justices in the area who live in the present, not those who believes it's as simple as 'boys will be boys'.
And what is not mentioned enough in this discussion is that these guys who are doing this, the ones who week after week show up at these frat 'parties' with one thing on their mind--'getting some', NO MATTER HOW, are sick. They are sexual predators. They look like every other guy but something is wrong with them. They can't stop. They need to be caught, turned in, ratted on. Whatever it takes.
And ladies, please, this is not me blaming the victim, you have to do your part.
Start asking for bouncers, men and women to be stationed at the front and back doors and others floating around. Those with a tutored eye who can spot trouble.Anyone too wasted, stoned whatever, not wearing enough clothes-call and get them a car to drive them home. Insist that doors are removed to rooms where assaults are likely to occur-all you have to do is get a hammer and screw driver and pop the three pins out of the hinge and you're done- with the pins easily put back in and the door back on as easily as it was removed. A little extreme? Maybe. e But extreme measures are now called for.
And if frats balk, start a campaign to get them boycotted.
By the way, this coming weekend scores of women will be assaulted and raped on our campuses.
And what is not mentioned enough in this discussion is that these guys who are doing this, the ones who week after week show up at these frat 'parties' with one thing on their mind--'getting some', NO MATTER HOW, are sick. They are sexual predators. They look like every other guy but something is wrong with them. They can't stop. They need to be caught, turned in, ratted on. Whatever it takes.
And ladies, please, this is not me blaming the victim, you have to do your part.
Start asking for bouncers, men and women to be stationed at the front and back doors and others floating around. Those with a tutored eye who can spot trouble.Anyone too wasted, stoned whatever, not wearing enough clothes-call and get them a car to drive them home. Insist that doors are removed to rooms where assaults are likely to occur-all you have to do is get a hammer and screw driver and pop the three pins out of the hinge and you're done- with the pins easily put back in and the door back on as easily as it was removed. A little extreme? Maybe. e But extreme measures are now called for.
And if frats balk, start a campaign to get them boycotted.
By the way, this coming weekend scores of women will be assaulted and raped on our campuses.
6
Why is drinking such a priority for these students? As all these stories continue to come out about the prevalence and dangers of college-age binge drinking, I'm not hearing college students face into the big question of why they're drinking so much.
182
Some kids that age always have, you'll see reports of drunken college students going back hundreds of years. On the other hand, part of the problem seems to be unrealistic drinking age laws that force drinking underground. They speak of a rape problem, but from what I can tell, this is more a binge drinking problem that leads to and facilitates rape and unwanted sexual encounters.
31
Because they're young, have limited experience making good decisions, and have very stressful lives. Also, it's very fun.
9
On my campus the academics were extremely tough, so other than Friday or Saturday night one spent most of one's time studying - the level of stress was intense. If you wanted a stress-reliever drinking at a frat party was one of the few options. Isolation, short funds, few options to socialize, limited transportation. So limited options may play a part.
2
Here's my anti-rape idea: Men, stop raping women.
No means no, consent is 100% mandatory, no matter how much both of you have been drinking.
I'm skeptical of efforts to change this deeply embedded cultural problem by moving its home turf from the boys' club to the girls' club and mandating which kinds of drinks can be put out. Blame for this problem must always rest solely on the aggressors, not of the victims.
No means no, consent is 100% mandatory, no matter how much both of you have been drinking.
I'm skeptical of efforts to change this deeply embedded cultural problem by moving its home turf from the boys' club to the girls' club and mandating which kinds of drinks can be put out. Blame for this problem must always rest solely on the aggressors, not of the victims.
124
If a male and a female both VOLUNTARILY get drunk so that neither can give consent and they then have sex is:
The male guilty of rape?
The female guilty of rape?
Why does alcohol have to be part of any party.
Students go to college to learn not to party.
The male guilty of rape?
The female guilty of rape?
Why does alcohol have to be part of any party.
Students go to college to learn not to party.
55
Hair splitting is what you are doing to justify rape. Rape is rape. A woman cannot enter a man. She doesn't have a penis. She can't make the man pregnant.
19
Rape is a serious crime.
I did not try to split hairs or justify rape.
I simply asked a legal question.
Allegations of rape should be reported to the police and treated by the legal system.
Not every sexual encounter is rape.
Some sexual encounters involve immature behavior by both participants.
Confusing the two unfortunately diminishes the seriousness of rape.
I am not a lawyer [and I hope people will correct me on the law if I am wrong] but I believe if a female above the age of consent has sex with a male below the age of consent then even if the sex was voluntary the female is guilty of rape.
If a female guard in a prison has sex with a male inmate I believe the female is guilty of rape whether or not the sex was voluntary.
I did not try to split hairs or justify rape.
I simply asked a legal question.
Allegations of rape should be reported to the police and treated by the legal system.
Not every sexual encounter is rape.
Some sexual encounters involve immature behavior by both participants.
Confusing the two unfortunately diminishes the seriousness of rape.
I am not a lawyer [and I hope people will correct me on the law if I am wrong] but I believe if a female above the age of consent has sex with a male below the age of consent then even if the sex was voluntary the female is guilty of rape.
If a female guard in a prison has sex with a male inmate I believe the female is guilty of rape whether or not the sex was voluntary.
10
I'm a little shocked that women in sororities can't have alcohol at their own parties. I'm a little horrified that the National Panhellenic Conference thinks women can't handle the responsibility too. As a student at a women's college, I went to parties thrown by women who invited men, who dispensed alcohol, who took care of each other, and the next day cleaned up and went to the library. I'm sure it didn't prevent all cases of sexual violence but it did teach us how to hold a party responsibly. And that is part of becoming an adult.
228
Never cared for frat parties, but didn't realize sororities weren't "allowed" to have such parties. After seeing the aftermath of a few frat parties, I figured women had more common sense and didn't wish to deal with the after mess. That being said, I do recall some of the parties being co-sponsored by a sorority and fraternity at a frat house.
Dorm parties were very co-ed centric back in my day, from planning to clean-up. We tended to watch out for each other too, but suspect that varied depending on the people involved.
Dorm parties were very co-ed centric back in my day, from planning to clean-up. We tended to watch out for each other too, but suspect that varied depending on the people involved.
7
Isn't this entire dialogue, at its root, about women not being able to handle drinking?
1
If women stop going to fraternity parties I suspect the fraternity culture would start to change.
5
Sure because rapes occur in specific places versus due to bad behavior. Sorry, I really don't think that changing the location of potential binge drinking event for some will mitigate the possibility of rape occurring.
I have nothing against responsible social drinking in any venue. Crossing the line is not protected by place, the illusion of safety is just that, as predators will find prey regardless of location.
I have nothing against responsible social drinking in any venue. Crossing the line is not protected by place, the illusion of safety is just that, as predators will find prey regardless of location.
5
These are two separate issues.
1. Women should be afforded the same freedoms as men, which is to be allowed alcohol on their premises.
2. The solution to rape is not to change the behavior of the potential victim but of the potential rapist.
1. Women should be afforded the same freedoms as men, which is to be allowed alcohol on their premises.
2. The solution to rape is not to change the behavior of the potential victim but of the potential rapist.
185
"The solution to rape is not to change the behavior of the potential victim but of the potential rapist."
That's like saying that the solution to bank robbery is to change the behavior of the potential bank robber. There are evil people out there and while we should do everything we can to discourage them, it's also true that the solution to bank robbery is not eliminating the guards and the vault.
Moral outrage is fine, but it should never come at the expense of the victims! As long as there is evil in the world, we'll have to find ways to defend ourselves against it.
That's like saying that the solution to bank robbery is to change the behavior of the potential bank robber. There are evil people out there and while we should do everything we can to discourage them, it's also true that the solution to bank robbery is not eliminating the guards and the vault.
Moral outrage is fine, but it should never come at the expense of the victims! As long as there is evil in the world, we'll have to find ways to defend ourselves against it.
68
That's a great long-term solution, but it doesn't help women in the short term. Considering how they can take the best care of themselves empowers women; waiting for men to change doesn't.
16
Josh Hill, please don't liken property theft to a violent assault on a human being. They are not comparable. A woman's body is not a bank vault.
7