Let's put an analogy of another dangerous weapon that kills more people than handguns-cars. Let's not even talk about drunk driving, when is the last time all you "holier than thou"'s drove over the speed limit or changed lanes without signaling? Would you expect jail time for that offense? You "could" of killed someone. And I will respect your comments when you can look me in the eye and tell me you never drove drunk. And though there is room for debate, driving is a privilege not a right, while there are strong arguments that carrying a gun is a right.
5
On July 25, 2014, the chief of neuro engineering at the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix openly carried his loaded AR-15 into Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport, once the busiest 2 runway airport in the world (a third runway has been built.) It is legal to do so.
People scattered, the police (the airport is owned and operated by the city of Phoenix) followed him everywhere. A cop asked him if he was arriving or departing and Peter Steinmetz's reply was "are you detaining me? If not, I'm leaving."
He sat down at a restaurant and, in unslinging his weapon, pointed it at two women who filed a complaint with the police.
He was arrested and his hospital placed him on administrative leave.
Previously, on November 13, 2013, Steinmetz took his weapon for a walk at the airport when he went to pick up his wife. This time he had his minor child with him, who was also armed with a handgun.
In November, 2014, Steinmetz was acquitted of all charges, but this incident gave rise to many business, like Target and Starbucks, prohibiting guns in their stores.
Here is Steinmetz's defense as it appeared in the statewide Arizona Republic, which gave him a full column's worth of ink.
As I read it, the defense is the typical gun guy claims that it's YOUR fault if guns scare you.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2014/11/22/open-carry-sky-h...
People scattered, the police (the airport is owned and operated by the city of Phoenix) followed him everywhere. A cop asked him if he was arriving or departing and Peter Steinmetz's reply was "are you detaining me? If not, I'm leaving."
He sat down at a restaurant and, in unslinging his weapon, pointed it at two women who filed a complaint with the police.
He was arrested and his hospital placed him on administrative leave.
Previously, on November 13, 2013, Steinmetz took his weapon for a walk at the airport when he went to pick up his wife. This time he had his minor child with him, who was also armed with a handgun.
In November, 2014, Steinmetz was acquitted of all charges, but this incident gave rise to many business, like Target and Starbucks, prohibiting guns in their stores.
Here is Steinmetz's defense as it appeared in the statewide Arizona Republic, which gave him a full column's worth of ink.
As I read it, the defense is the typical gun guy claims that it's YOUR fault if guns scare you.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2014/11/22/open-carry-sky-h...
22
State and federal courts historically have used two models to interpret the 2nd Amendment: the "individual rights" model, which holds that individuals have the right to bear arms, & the "collective rights" model, which holds that the right is dependent on militia membership. The "collective rights" model has been rejected by the Supreme Court, in favor of the individual rights model.
The 2nd amendment was promulgated in December of 1791. It's now 2015.
I think the intention of the "right" was militia membership, having just experienced attempted incursion by British soldiers.
I would prefer not to sit beside a fellow human being, who might be hallucinating, is carrying a concealed weapon & whose "voices" are telling him/her to shoot me.
The 2nd amendment was promulgated in December of 1791. It's now 2015.
I think the intention of the "right" was militia membership, having just experienced attempted incursion by British soldiers.
I would prefer not to sit beside a fellow human being, who might be hallucinating, is carrying a concealed weapon & whose "voices" are telling him/her to shoot me.
41
The NRA will shortly propose that everyone getting on an airplane be REQUIRED to carry a concealed weapon. This requirement will include all children, including the "unborn" who will be handed their tiny weapons laparoscopically as soon as their existence has been confirmed. Fetuses will be given larger weapons on a trimesterly basis until birth when they will immediately get the real thing to play with in their crib (fully loaded, of course!)
With everyone packing heat, the question of whether someone forgot to leave their weapon at home becomes moot. So much safer and simpler! Anything less would be unconstitutional!
With everyone packing heat, the question of whether someone forgot to leave their weapon at home becomes moot. So much safer and simpler! Anything less would be unconstitutional!
23
The supposedly pro-police and pro-security GOP and NRA make the jobs of those who protect us more difficult by the minute, and endanger the lives of the rest of us. Yeah, it's just great that the crew that's blocking every initiative and letting our country's infrastructure fall apart is working tirelessly, 24/7, to put guns in the hands of people who can't be bothered to learn local gun laws or who "forget" they're carrying them when they try to board an airplane.
25
Having a loaded gun around your children and FORGETTING you have it? Drunk drivers are routinely penalized for placing innocent people (and themselves) in harm's way -- people who buy, load, carry, and then FORGET they're carrying a gun should face penalties similar to drunk drivers. In both cases, the individual in question has obtained a piece of equipment and is demonstrating they clearly aren't responsible.
39
Let's see you have a weapon for self defense but forget where it is. That makes sense.
30
I am always amazed that, despite signs on the line, despite rules that have been in place for a decade or more, there is always some jerk who isn't prepared for security check.
It drives me crazy when TSA changes the rules in an arbitrary fashion. But "no guns" has been in place since the 1970s.
Confiscate them. That'll be the end of it.
It drives me crazy when TSA changes the rules in an arbitrary fashion. But "no guns" has been in place since the 1970s.
Confiscate them. That'll be the end of it.
18
I hope that the travelers who declare their guns at JFK or La Guardia and who "...are generally fined $250 and sent on their way" at least miss their flight!
BTW, what is the policy at Newark airport?
BTW, what is the policy at Newark airport?
5
Find a gun or other weapon in luggage? Confiscate and MELT IT. That should improve the passenger's attentiveness to what he/she brings to the airport.
23
Saying you "forgot" you had a loaded gun in your bag is about as believable as the shoplifter saying she "forgot" to pay for that dress before walking out of the store.
32
“Particularly if they are carrying something light, like a little .22, it becomes like their keys or their cellphone and they just forget they have it on them,” said Jeffrey C. Price
Then what use is it anyway?
Then what use is it anyway?
23
Anyone who brings a loaded gun to an airport should be placed on a no-fly list. How can we possibly be sure that their intentions are benign?
42
: “I have a hard time understanding how anyone can forget they have a firearm anywhere,” said Mr. Henry of Georgia Carry. “But I guess people get in a hurry.”"
What a sick, sick country this is.
What a sick, sick country this is.
32
wow, all these gunslingers walking around our country. are we safer because of the proliferation of conceal/carry permits, or is our country more dangerous? in any case, it's my opinion that walking around with a death stick on your person must mean you are either looking for the ultimate fight or you are incredibly paranoid about the freedoms we have in this nation
17
You can be sure that if these people were arrested and jailed (even overnight) they would never again forget that gun in their bag.
15
If someone truly forgets he (she) is carrying a gun, that is truly concerning. Responsible, law abiding gun owners, as the NRA constantly tells us, should surely be able to remember that they are walking around with deadly weapons.
33
Only 50% are given fines? The TSA should get tough and levy the $1000 fines for all first offenders.
33
Given the large number of suicides and accidental deaths due to handguns, I feel much safer not carrying a gun.
15
It's hard to believe that people "forgot" they were trying to carry a gun onto an airplane. I suspect that those who want to carry their weapons onto an airplane would feel quite differently if it was a disguised terrorist who was boarding their plane.
32
Human memory is much worse than people commonly believe. There are cases every year of people forgetting babies in cars. So yeah, I do believe people can forget something like this.
8
All the concealed carry people have grand childhood inspired delusions of one day being involved in a "western movie" style shoot-out with the bad guys. I'd like to see stats about how many of them actually use their gun in the prevention of a crime versus being involved in accidents and hurting bystanders. I believe the numbers already state bringing a gun into the home is more likely to harm your family than a "bad guy". The NRA has pulled the wool over all these people's eyes in order to serve who they really represent, the gun makers.
60
Brad C, I don't know the statistics, and doubt that anyone does because many incidents of self defense go unreported. I was first licensed in NYC in 1976. Since that time I had to pull my weapon only twice. The second time as soon as the other guy saw it he ran away. I would not have reported it at all except that the incident was picked up on the ATM camera and my card was in the machine identifying me. The next day, after showing I was licensed to carry the only question from police was why did I not shoot the guy. My answer was that I did not have to.
My life was saved twice. I did not take every opportunity to have a shoot out. I have no delusions that being armed with a concealed weapon makes me immune from attacks, or that I can always draw and fire on someone who already has a gun on me before getting shot myself. It is a terrible situation and is not to be taken lightly. I live with the memory of the first incident always, but at least I am here to remember and I have been here to take care of my family.
My life was saved twice. I did not take every opportunity to have a shoot out. I have no delusions that being armed with a concealed weapon makes me immune from attacks, or that I can always draw and fire on someone who already has a gun on me before getting shot myself. It is a terrible situation and is not to be taken lightly. I live with the memory of the first incident always, but at least I am here to remember and I have been here to take care of my family.
8
"Oh, I forgot I had a gun with me. Sorry."
If that's your excuse, then do yourself and all of us a favor and give up your gun.
If that's your excuse, then do yourself and all of us a favor and give up your gun.
53
Anyone who forgetfully bring a gun to the airport is unlikely to use his gun responsibly or effectively.
49
Given that nearly every cop, jurist and public health official understands the problem of weapons proliferation, it will take only the replacement of one Supreme Court Justice (Scalia?) to restore sanity and reasonable restrictions to the Second Amendment. We need to treat guns like cars: license, registration, training, testing, insurance and... you can't carry one on a plane.
46
Thank god for the "regional snobbery" of airports who arrest those who attempt to bring murder weapons on board an aircraft. These gun-toting paranoids should be given the same sentence any terrorist would get if they tried to smuggle a weapon on to a plane.
54
Just keep thinking: Idaho Walmart
41
To Seiis: I wish I could recommend your comment a thousand times over.
4
A federal law should exist that punishes such irresponsible behavior by seizing the weapons, collecting a substantial fine, and prohibiting the carriers from purchasing a firearm anywhere in the U.S. for the rest of their lives.
106
Let's try to (sorry) unpack this thinking. First of all, I'm so scared of what might happen to me if I'm not armed that I buy a gun to carry everywhere I go. Then I put it somewhere where I don't even realize I'm carrying. Or I'm so stupid that I think that my permit allows me to carry on an airplane. Here's something that might wake up the folks heading for the next Darwin award. Carry a gun to security and you loose your permit--permanently. These folks are truly scraping the bottom of the barrel brain wise. They don't deserve to own a weapon.
52
"No. 1 was Dallas-Fort Worth...." says a lot. Texas is the shoot-em-up state, after all. But the data also says something more, along the lines of "Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people" and that is: "stupid people carry concealed guns into airports."
25
I can't remember a single time when I felt the urge to protect myself on a flight. We live in such a strange, weird culture of gun fetishists who evidently are terrified of something or someone. Of whom or of what are you afraid, guys? I have no idea. Why would actually need a gun in your everyday life, not mentioning at the airport?! I know that this world is dangerous, but I can't remember so MANY times when I felt a real need to carry a weapon around with me.
15
The author writes that people are carrying more weapons "for self-protection."
Yes, people carry guns because they think it makes them safer. But evidence consistently shows that if you keep firearms you or a loved one are at much greater risk of eventually being harmed by a firearm.
I think it's a disservice to simply state people carry guns for their own safety, when that isn't the case!
Yes, people carry guns because they think it makes them safer. But evidence consistently shows that if you keep firearms you or a loved one are at much greater risk of eventually being harmed by a firearm.
I think it's a disservice to simply state people carry guns for their own safety, when that isn't the case!
23
I'm confident that in any of the cases described, if the person were a U.S. citizen legally carrying a firearm, but also a person of color, the undertone of sympathy would vanish. God help the U.S. Citizen in such circumstances who happens to be Muslim.
62
I do not understand our current fascination with guns. Up to 20 years ago, people did not brag about the need to carry a gun 24/7. Are gun rights groups so empowered that they desire us to go back to the era of the 'wild wild west' with show downs? Has the NRA so bought our elected officials, the NRA calls the shots? Or has fear been put into the populace over nothing, that the bogey man is behind every tree and under every bed that you need a gun?
It is better to have gun ownership restrictions in NYC. Can you see the daily chaos on its crowded subways. People fight over seats and standing room. A short tempered person pulling a gun because you stepped on their toe by accident! The carnage in Time Square because you get bothered by pan handlers or shoved by commuters in a rush?
People who feel they have to walk into a Wal-Mart or supermarket with a semi automatic over a shoulder makes me wonder about the sanity of that person. You cannot leave your gun in your vehicle for 30 mins? Or do you need to show how impotent you are. Your gun is your viagra. You think you will be called to defend the store registers, those odds - minimal. Criminals tend not to rob large stores unless they are truly wacked.
It is common sense that you do not carry a gun on a commercial aircraft. I am sure we have ringers, who want to get arrested in state with harsh gun laws, so they can sue to have them over turned. i.e. Washington DC or Illinois.
It is better to have gun ownership restrictions in NYC. Can you see the daily chaos on its crowded subways. People fight over seats and standing room. A short tempered person pulling a gun because you stepped on their toe by accident! The carnage in Time Square because you get bothered by pan handlers or shoved by commuters in a rush?
People who feel they have to walk into a Wal-Mart or supermarket with a semi automatic over a shoulder makes me wonder about the sanity of that person. You cannot leave your gun in your vehicle for 30 mins? Or do you need to show how impotent you are. Your gun is your viagra. You think you will be called to defend the store registers, those odds - minimal. Criminals tend not to rob large stores unless they are truly wacked.
It is common sense that you do not carry a gun on a commercial aircraft. I am sure we have ringers, who want to get arrested in state with harsh gun laws, so they can sue to have them over turned. i.e. Washington DC or Illinois.
24
"Law enforcement officials and aviation security experts say it’s an exasperating trend resulting primarily from more people legally carrying concealed handguns for self-protection."
All these people carrying handguns for self-protection, eh?
Hmm. In the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave, it surely does seem like there are a lot of people who are imprisoned by fear; like there are a lot of people whose lives are ruled by fear.
Given that unless you were a soldier in an active conflict zone, or you were a police officer, most persons are more likely to need protection from moving cars in parking lots, or even from mosquito bites than from armed or unarmed assailants. This fascination with carrying weapons just does not seem rational.
So two questions:
1: Why?
2: Given that someone can forget they are carrying a weapon, are they likely to remember that they have it with them should an actual situation in which they need to use that weapon actually arise?
Bonus question: Are they even likely to recognize such a situation before it's too late?
All these people carrying handguns for self-protection, eh?
Hmm. In the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave, it surely does seem like there are a lot of people who are imprisoned by fear; like there are a lot of people whose lives are ruled by fear.
Given that unless you were a soldier in an active conflict zone, or you were a police officer, most persons are more likely to need protection from moving cars in parking lots, or even from mosquito bites than from armed or unarmed assailants. This fascination with carrying weapons just does not seem rational.
So two questions:
1: Why?
2: Given that someone can forget they are carrying a weapon, are they likely to remember that they have it with them should an actual situation in which they need to use that weapon actually arise?
Bonus question: Are they even likely to recognize such a situation before it's too late?
26
Read this story together with the announcement this past Christmas that at Delta employees were brazenly running guns through Hartsfield-Jackson Airport under the very noses of the TSA -- because employees have unscreened access to the security areas. In seven months, they smuggled about 130 guns on at least five flights from Georgia to New York and elsewhere. In the meantime, when I have flown over the last 13 years, I have had confiscated items like a homemade jar of blueberry jam; I have had my bags rummaged through because I forgot to pull out one bottle of children's sunscreen; my young children have been removed from strollers; I've been scanned, patted down, half undressed. And apparently the gun holders get a slap on the wrist. I appreciate the efforts to keep us all safe, but this laxity regarding guns on airplanes is insane.
46
I'd rather be on a plane with a licensed gun owner with his/her weapon loaded than on a street corner in any high crime neighborhood in this country.
Criminals don't apply for gun permits.
Law abiders do.
Criminals don't apply for gun permits.
Law abiders do.
8
If they were "law abiders", they wouldn't be bringing their guns to the airport.
35
And criminals don't bring theirs on airplanes.
9
If I see an individual carrying a gun, how am I supposed to know if he/she is a criminal, terrorist, or simply an armed citizen?
14
Further evidence there are a large number of human beings with hoarding disorder. Having stuff for the sake of having it, filling the voids, trying to make up for loss - with the worst of all weaknesses associated: fear.
16
I don't know any psychology or anything about memory.
I suggest if there were MANDATORY jail time for anyone who "forgot" they were carrying a gun, their memory would dramatically improve.
I suggest if there were MANDATORY jail time for anyone who "forgot" they were carrying a gun, their memory would dramatically improve.
36
Texas could respond by declining to recognize NY State driver's licenses, and arresting New Yorkers who drive in Texas. I'll have to suggest that to Governor Abbott.
8
no, they can respond by arresting New Yorkers who bring their firearms to Texas - driver's licenses are valid nationwide so the retaliation you're suggesting makes no sense.
15
"One involved a 94-year-old Brooklyn man with a .38 pistol strapped to the small of his back as he attempted to go through security at La Guardia last November." Is this correct? 94 years old? Strapped to the small of his back? At LaGuardia? Where was he going? Shoot out where they filmed "Cocoon"? 94 years old and I bet he can't drive a car but a gun? No problem.
41
Reminds me of that great scene in High Anxiety when Mel Brooks realizes at the last minute that he has a gun as he's about to go through the metal detector. Anyone remember "the mad beeper is loose!"? Hilarious scene for all of you young'uns who missed this one.
1
Unfortunately, he might very well still have a driver's license.
3
Or John Cleese in "A Fish Called Wanda".
1
~10000 American children injured or killed by guns a year in the USA and more than 30000 gun deaths a year in total.
Neither fact is apparently sufficient to cause a reconsideration of an 18th century law. A law written when it took tens of seconds to load a single round in a weapon, which would have been nearly impossible to conceal.
All manner of irrational situations will continue to occur in America, so long as the populace remains armed to the teeth.
The gun most likely to kill you or your child is your own:
"The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998)."
Until the US decides to join with other western nations and control the access of the population to deadly weapons, you will continue to suffer from disproportionate levels of carnage.
Someone accidentally carrying a gun to the airport is really the least of your worries.
Your child dying in your own or a friend's home, or at school, due to the prevalence of weapons in your society would seem a more rational worry and a better topic for an article.
Neither fact is apparently sufficient to cause a reconsideration of an 18th century law. A law written when it took tens of seconds to load a single round in a weapon, which would have been nearly impossible to conceal.
All manner of irrational situations will continue to occur in America, so long as the populace remains armed to the teeth.
The gun most likely to kill you or your child is your own:
"The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998)."
Until the US decides to join with other western nations and control the access of the population to deadly weapons, you will continue to suffer from disproportionate levels of carnage.
Someone accidentally carrying a gun to the airport is really the least of your worries.
Your child dying in your own or a friend's home, or at school, due to the prevalence of weapons in your society would seem a more rational worry and a better topic for an article.
65
Mark William Kennedy -- "more than 30000 gun deaths a year in total."
There you go again.
Two thirds of those "deaths" (2/3) are suicides. They are the most determined suicides.
More than half the rest are in high crime areas in which there is a lot more killing and other violence -- we shouldn't have violent high crime areas victimizing millions of our poorest who can't escape.
This "30,000 deaths" gun problem so often quoted is three problems, of which guns is the smallest (but real).
There you go again.
Two thirds of those "deaths" (2/3) are suicides. They are the most determined suicides.
More than half the rest are in high crime areas in which there is a lot more killing and other violence -- we shouldn't have violent high crime areas victimizing millions of our poorest who can't escape.
This "30,000 deaths" gun problem so often quoted is three problems, of which guns is the smallest (but real).
3
Does that make them less dead?
7
True that 20,000 are suicides but a good portion of these poor people would still be here today if they didn't have a gun in their home. A gun makes it easier to kill and in a depressed, impulsive situation- you don't get a second chance. When people use other ways to kill themselves, there is less of a success rate and therefore they can get another chance on life and a chance to seek help. It is about the gun. Having a gun in your home is a danger to everybody in that home- particularly women in domestic violence situations.
15
I have never understood why people traveling interstate with a firearm that is legally owned and a legal license to carry concealed in his or her own state cannot easily traverse New York and New Jersey. I think it is a violation of the 2nd & 10th ammendments to the U.S. Constition. But the policy stands. So we adapt.
It makes New York a flyover state for hunters and businessmen and makes competive marksmen and women and collectors ship their firearms and avoid your states.
Frankly many people I know go hundreds of miles out of their way to avoid New York City, myself included. Sadly it is impossible to go from New England to the remainder of the U.S.A. without crossing your state. It is easier to cross into Canada legally to avoid New York.
I don't understand why there cannot be licence reciprocity nation wide.
It makes New York a flyover state for hunters and businessmen and makes competive marksmen and women and collectors ship their firearms and avoid your states.
Frankly many people I know go hundreds of miles out of their way to avoid New York City, myself included. Sadly it is impossible to go from New England to the remainder of the U.S.A. without crossing your state. It is easier to cross into Canada legally to avoid New York.
I don't understand why there cannot be licence reciprocity nation wide.
8
I'll bet that that on the other hand, you rail against all the interference by the US government in "State's Rights."
16
Well, I'd just as soon not have you in my state with your guns. We have enough trouble already.
12
The reason is that us New Yorkers believe guns are dangerous and often misused. We want to be safe, and fervently believe that the prevalence of guns in our society makes us less safe, and more prone to accidental or impulsive shooting and death. You have workarounds for getting your guns where they need to go. Use them. NY has a lot to offer, but if you wish to boycott it because we don't want your guns, then you are free to do so.
21
Just more evidence of the sheer lunacy of our easy-access gun culture...
34
I don't believe for one moment that these people forgot they had a gun. They brought their guns purposely. As to why they wanted to bring a gun on board, I couldn't answer. They may have intended to use it. And I feel the law should assume when a person attempts to bring a gun on board a plane, they are intending to commit a crime. These people should be prosecuted for committing a felony
61
Its always amazing to see how 'stupid' intelligent people can be.
Security checks are not new, so "go figure" on what they're thinking.
As the comments note, if you don't know you're carrying, you shouldn't be.
I know quite a few permit holders and I'm always amazed at their thought process on needing to carry to protect themselves.
The risk is far greater from the mistakes you make.
I especially liked the most recent clip of the police officer (I guess it was a flesh wound) in the elevator who shot himself trying to put his gun in his pocket. These are not toys and should be respected more than we see in reality.
Security checks are not new, so "go figure" on what they're thinking.
As the comments note, if you don't know you're carrying, you shouldn't be.
I know quite a few permit holders and I'm always amazed at their thought process on needing to carry to protect themselves.
The risk is far greater from the mistakes you make.
I especially liked the most recent clip of the police officer (I guess it was a flesh wound) in the elevator who shot himself trying to put his gun in his pocket. These are not toys and should be respected more than we see in reality.
27
I'm not buying the "I forgot" excuse. When you pack you luggage for a trip, you consciously decide what you're wearing on that trip. The gun doesn't just get tossed in randomly. Come on.
81
Of course you are quite correct....it's not a accident that a piece got tossed into the your carry on luggage, its an intentional act. But what else are these fools going to say when they get nabbed at the TSA security check point. Its all a bit like telling the teacher that "the dog ate my homework" I find it interesting that when folks are caught in some transgression their excuses a remarkably lame....
14
If it just lives in your purse, day in and day out, it's perfectly plausible you may forget you have it, in the sense of no longer thinking of it as a separate object that you consciously plan to bring with you or leave behind.
Not that this makes it a good idea, at all.
Not that this makes it a good idea, at all.
4
How about we get these boys and girls their own little airline. We could keep them away from the sane traveling public on 2nd AMENDMENT AIR. No need to check your Glock or Smith and Wesson. Climb on board with the rest of the terminally paranoid, who fear for their lives every waking hour. Free drinks included! It would just be so safe and cozy.
Just wondering which occurs more often: intervene effectively in an active shooter incident or plug your brother-in-law?
Just wondering which occurs more often: intervene effectively in an active shooter incident or plug your brother-in-law?
69
The plane would have to have armor plating between the cockpit and the passengers !!!!!
6
Nope, that would be the safest plane to fly on (if not overloaded with ammo).
3
“Particularly if they are carrying something light, like a little .22, it becomes like their keys or their cellphone and they just forget they have it on them,” said Jeffrey C. Price, a professor of aerospace science at Metropolitan State University in Denver and the lead author of “Practical Aviation Security.”
Dream on, Mr.Price. These people don't "forget."
They know precicely what they're doing - they are just stupid enough to think they can get away with it.
The scary thought? - some of them do, I'm sure.
Dream on, Mr.Price. These people don't "forget."
They know precicely what they're doing - they are just stupid enough to think they can get away with it.
The scary thought? - some of them do, I'm sure.
57
You know, I was ans aerospace engineer years ago. They, me included, tend to very smart in their field but social inept. As they say, carrying a gun on your person isn't rocket science.
1
Most of them honestly forgot? I doubt it. They were hoping they could get away with it.
116
Similarly - those evil folks who bring a cup of coffee and try to smuggle it through... or -as per the article - those evil-doers attempting to smuggle change through in their pockets - horrors.
2
“I have a hard time understanding how anyone can forget they have a firearm anywhere,” said Mr. Henry of Georgia Carry. “But I guess people get in a hurry.” Or perhaps they are irresponsible, careless, not too intelligent, emotionally distraught, angry, scared, intoxicated or think they are a latter day Wyatt Earp or Annie Oakley, all of which put thousands of innocent travelers at risk on a daily basis.
37
According to Mr. Henry, people are in such a hurry that they forget that they're carrying an object designed to kill other humans. That's a sign that we live in a sick and twisted culture.
68
No, these objects as legally owned by civilians are designed to shoot at paper, steel, plastic or clay targets for fun and to improve one's self-control, exactly that archers and golfers do. I don't know if one of a billion of shots on any given day in the US is shot at a live person in self-defence (I exclude perp-on-perp shooting incidents) , much better statistics than driving a car.
3
I worry about the patchwork of gun laws ranging from the crazy-harsh (NY, NJ, CA, etc) to the crazy-nonexistent (LA, AL, FL, etc), because it almost entirely makes felons out of people who, while careless or full-on stupid, are not committing actual crimes.
For the TSA specifically, I don't worry about the number of guns they catch, I worry about the number of guns they miss.
For the TSA specifically, I don't worry about the number of guns they catch, I worry about the number of guns they miss.
6
Do we really want people who are "careless or full-on stupid" carrying a lethal weapon around?
15
Guns are not "normal". If I see one, which I rarely do, my ears prick up and I become nervous, "put that away", whaddya gonna shoot me? This Wild West mentality, the assumed entitlement of pathologically angry, suspicious people to bring guns into public places is ludicrous.
31
I can only imagine the number of "idiots" who have these guns around little kids in their homes. If we had a scale of civilization on the US from 1-10 the 8 or 9 we used to have has slipped to the lower reaches with the advent of stupid concealed carry. Sure, they may feel safer, but I do not.
25
I agree. We must all remember the tragic shooting my an infant of the mother who had a pistol in her handbag that she left in the cart with the baby.
10
Too many guns, too little safety and control, and not the wiser in using them. I understand there is the technology to render weapons 'useless' when not in the hands of its owners; and the simplest way, a list displayed at the airport reading: "am I playing possum by having a gun with me right now?". And while we are at it, given that Congress allows guns almost everywhere but in its own 'vault', does anybody smell hypocrisy?
14
Congress does not make state gun laws nor Supreme Court decisions. They are responsible for defunding serious gun research over the last twenty years or so, but that's not the same thing.
5
The only chance that something will be done about this is when one of the guns that has slipped past security - there are certainly at least some - goes off during a flight.
But even then, I wouldn't bet on any changes being made.
But even then, I wouldn't bet on any changes being made.
14
"“It’s a serious offense, but at the same time, we can’t use our regional snobbery that guns are good things or bad things,” said Mr. Masters. “The U.S. is like four or five different countries when it comes to attitudes about guns.”"
really? regional snobbery? what if we call it agreed upon societal norms that we don't go walking around packing heat, particularly in an airport, in this time of hijackings, terrorism, and airplanes falling out of the sky?
really? regional snobbery? what if we call it agreed upon societal norms that we don't go walking around packing heat, particularly in an airport, in this time of hijackings, terrorism, and airplanes falling out of the sky?
159
Yes, semantics.
Your 'societal norms' are his 'regional snobbery'. Or more to the point I believe you were reaching for 'cultural norms'.
Because that is what both of you are talking about. We have a to forget that we are a people of many cultures. For some reason, without the weight of written law to remind us we refuse to respect the culture of others. Whether it be American Indian culture, black culture, hispanic culture, midwest culture, jewish culture or vanishing frontier culture. If it isn't ours it deserves no respect. If it is ours it is the only right way to live.
Which, of course, is a much bigger problem then a rise in concealed carry permits. If we refuse to respect the culture of others we have become the enemy.
Your 'societal norms' are his 'regional snobbery'. Or more to the point I believe you were reaching for 'cultural norms'.
Because that is what both of you are talking about. We have a to forget that we are a people of many cultures. For some reason, without the weight of written law to remind us we refuse to respect the culture of others. Whether it be American Indian culture, black culture, hispanic culture, midwest culture, jewish culture or vanishing frontier culture. If it isn't ours it deserves no respect. If it is ours it is the only right way to live.
Which, of course, is a much bigger problem then a rise in concealed carry permits. If we refuse to respect the culture of others we have become the enemy.
5
Give me a break. How many of those who got caught actually didn't know they were carrying a gun.
31
I agree, Jim, as does Mr. Henry of Georgia Carry.
"Even gun rights advocates said they were somewhat mystified by the number of guns confiscated at airport checkpoints. “I have a hard time understanding how anyone can forget they have a firearm anywhere,” said Mr. Henry of Georgia Carry".
"Even gun rights advocates said they were somewhat mystified by the number of guns confiscated at airport checkpoints. “I have a hard time understanding how anyone can forget they have a firearm anywhere,” said Mr. Henry of Georgia Carry".
4
The dog ate my homework.
10
And according to TSA's blog there is frequently and attempt to conceal the firearms or other weapons such that they can be smuggled past security.
That has included disassemble semiautomatic pistols, knives and e plosives or simulated explosives, e.g. Fake grenades.
These people should lose their guns forever - and be barred from firearm use, e.g. Using another person's weapon or that of a family member.
Thousands of thousands of people die unnecessarily every year due to firearms and the people who use them.
That has included disassemble semiautomatic pistols, knives and e plosives or simulated explosives, e.g. Fake grenades.
These people should lose their guns forever - and be barred from firearm use, e.g. Using another person's weapon or that of a family member.
Thousands of thousands of people die unnecessarily every year due to firearms and the people who use them.
6
This country's gun laws are admittedly a crazy quilt, and those peaceful individuals who routinely carry legally in one state can be badly tripped up by the laws of another. Perhaps every airport should post signs and hand out brochures summarising each state's laws and advising such people to place their weapons - unloaded - in checked baggage, but there's another problem here - we also, perhaps uniquely, require our baggage to be able to be opened at any time by the TSA, which for all practical purposes means being kept unlocked. (Yes, there are TSA locks, but you risk having some impatient inspector wreck your luggage rather than open the tning properly, and under those circumstances you, legally, DON'T have a damage claim, even though your gun has just 'disappeared'. Isn't flying fun these days?) But, then again, even if you're lucky and nothing's damaged or stolen, there's that strangest of American authorities' mentalities to deal with - a legendary love of manipulating people with mind games. You see it at schools, at the workplace, and most devastatingly when dealing with law enforcement in matters concerning everything from drugs and weapons to - most notoriously - dealings with your friendly motor vehicle office. It's as if there's a determination to entrap people by making it very hard for them to know all the rules. Someday, in a hundred years or so, people will be sitting around wondering how a country could function that way, if there's anything left to sit on.
5
If you can actually forget you have a gun when approaching a TSA checkpoint then you really should consider voluntarily giving up your carry permit. For it is certain you cannot be a responsible gun owner.
I say this as a gun owner and long time supporter of gun rights. To be able to wander around with a loaded gun on your person and not remember it is there should be a red flag that you are more of a danger to yourself, armed, then any combination of strangers might be.
I say this as a gun owner and long time supporter of gun rights. To be able to wander around with a loaded gun on your person and not remember it is there should be a red flag that you are more of a danger to yourself, armed, then any combination of strangers might be.
260
So, may I assume that you would support legislation in the Oregon statehouse to allow the state to revoke a citizen's right to a concealed carry permit forever if another state sends formal notification that they were caught trying to board an airplane there while armed? Think it would be passed? Personally, I doubt it.
5
m.anders,
Actually I just did. In Oregon, as in I believe every state, being convicted of a felony anywhere ¿even New York City¿ automatically revokes your CCL and your right to own guns. In fact being a convicted felon in possession of a firearm (not owning, just having it) is a felony.
Actually I just did. In Oregon, as in I believe every state, being convicted of a felony anywhere ¿even New York City¿ automatically revokes your CCL and your right to own guns. In fact being a convicted felon in possession of a firearm (not owning, just having it) is a felony.
16
I do agree that the folks who willingly declared their locked-up weapons at check-in only to be fined are being wronged. If we want to encourage responsible behavior like this, fines and punishment aren't the way to go.
But it disturbs me that the very people who are clueless enough to attempt to go through a TSA checkpoint with a loaded weapon - despite everything we've heard about hijacking attempts and the former ban on NAIL CLIPPERS and whatnot - are also the very same ones who are legally allowed to carry it around wherever they like. Do we really want someone this out of it to be responsible for deciding whether or not to cause bodily harm or death?
But it disturbs me that the very people who are clueless enough to attempt to go through a TSA checkpoint with a loaded weapon - despite everything we've heard about hijacking attempts and the former ban on NAIL CLIPPERS and whatnot - are also the very same ones who are legally allowed to carry it around wherever they like. Do we really want someone this out of it to be responsible for deciding whether or not to cause bodily harm or death?
35
Ignorance of the law has never been considered a defense. People who choose to carry firearms are expected to know the regulations governing where and when they may carry. That includes travelers. I believe that fines and punishment are exactly the way to discourage gun owners from being careless. It is the reason we have penalties for drunk driving.
Still, perhaps it would be helpful if airports in states like Texas had signs in their airports warning people that they will be liable to prosecution if they carry a firearm in New York, New Jersey, etc, without having a concealed weapons permit valid in that state.
Still, perhaps it would be helpful if airports in states like Texas had signs in their airports warning people that they will be liable to prosecution if they carry a firearm in New York, New Jersey, etc, without having a concealed weapons permit valid in that state.
15
They broke the law when they brought them into NY. Same as any gang member who brought one in from a Virginia gun show. Part of the penalty should be making them disassemble and destroy them in the court room to drive home the lesson.
Write your representatives and tell them to either sponsor a responsible gun control Amendment that Roberts and Co. Can't misinterpret, or man up and remove the metal detectors from the Capitol and take their chances with the rest of us.
Write your representatives and tell them to either sponsor a responsible gun control Amendment that Roberts and Co. Can't misinterpret, or man up and remove the metal detectors from the Capitol and take their chances with the rest of us.
16
The humiliation that the American public puts up with to fly knows no bounds of stupidity. Yes, the 'screening' is ineffective. The idea that people 'forget' a gun just shows you so. We know how many guns they caught, we do not know how many guns they missed. If you believe in the ability of statistical analysis and probability to project so, it will tell you for every gun caught, at least five were missed. So, the next time you get on a plane, think about who has that gun they missed.
35
With some states legalizing drugs same will happen with them. Legally embarking from their home airport and convicted on their return back home.
5
The difference is that if you carry "pot" on board, you will not "accidentally" kill anyone by say, dropping it.
17
Forgetting a gun when flying? Try living in a senior community (with very little crime) in a state where people feel they can carry guns in their pockets. Amazingly enough those guns more often than not actually fall out of those pockets, at churches, at bars, at hospitals. "Opps" is not a sufficient response.
Until accurate statistics on all the gun deaths and injuries in the US are allowed to be collected, the scope of the "forgetfulness" issue is never going to be known.
Until accurate statistics on all the gun deaths and injuries in the US are allowed to be collected, the scope of the "forgetfulness" issue is never going to be known.
141
Let's not forget that if a loaded gun with a chambered round is dropped, it can fire and harm bystanders. We require drivers to use seatbelts -- why can't we require gunowners to use holsters? And hold them accountable with fines and confiscation if they walk around with a loaded gun or fail to secure their guns?
24
Dropping modern loaded firearms from a table height will not cause them to fire. They all have an inertial safety (most a spring loaded firing pin) of some type that prevents firing unless the trigger is pulled.
Some manufactures require holsters in their instruction manuals due to their design but others are designed for safe carry in a pocket.
Some manufactures require holsters in their instruction manuals due to their design but others are designed for safe carry in a pocket.
3
People do forget the strangest things. The most frequent item left on aircraft (as reported by Unclaimed Baggage, a reseller of lost luggage and items on flights): shoes!
One would think you would realize you were walking out barefoot or with airline slippers.
One would think you would realize you were walking out barefoot or with airline slippers.
10
No really, let's prosecute these people. There is a reason some states don't want these gun intrusions. The woman with three guns visiting her grand kids while so uniformed and casual is a danger to me in my state so 15 years sounds about right. Keep the guns out. What if it had gone off while getting out of the car to go into the airport or at a restaurant. Bullets go thru suitcases and purses and on to hit people.
126
Seriously. I don't let my kids get away with an excuse like "I forgot." They just plain lose their allowance and next time, they don't forget. Of course that's for a much more minor slip than forgetting you are armed....
7
Can we permanently remove someone's ability to own a gun if they "forget" they have it with them at the airport? We are talking about a lethal weapon, something that can/will probably kill somebody. It seems to me that if they can't properly care for their weapon, they don't deserve it! Please!
119
If you are able to forget you have a loaded gun hidden on your body, you shouldn't be carrying one in public. I don't understand the relaxed way certain populations in America interact with firearms including leaving them around the house or a grocery cart for small children to find, killing a neighbor while cleaning their loaded gun or any other time a gun is discharged and declared an "accident." As more and more guns enter the public sphere, all of us most hope and pray that we are not the next victims of a "responsible" gun owner forgetting to secure their weapons.
230
A grandmother traveling with her grandchildren forgets she has THREE guns with her? Scares the living heck out of me. Sadly, very sadly, that is a perfect example of how insane America has come regarding guns. However, the majority of Americans, as well as, the elected don't seem to find anything alarming about incidents like these or the tragedies connected with guns anymore. Simple, basic changes to firearms have little to no chance of being addressed now or at any time in the future. Shopping online instead of stores and malls, ordering out instead of eating at restaurants, driving instead of flying or walking down the streets, having parties at home instead of bars, homeschooling your kids and looking for ways for them to go to college online, watching movies at home instead of in theatres and avoiding vacationing in states with the lax laws seems to be the only way to avoid the violence anymore.
52
To be fair, the article doesn't say that she forgot but that she didn't know she couldn't travel with them. Still rather irresponsible, though, and one wonders just why she thought she would need them while in New York.
6
Grandmothers and grandfathers, aging and the likelihood that some of our citizens will develop various forms of dementia. We test to ensure drivers can operate their cars, etc. yet it seems that there is no process for ensuring the elderly are checked for their ability to know they even have a handgun. Having dealt with dementia and you add a gun to that mix - yikes - the greying of an America fully armed and loaded for bear.
8
If you can forget you're carrying a gun then you shouldn't be carrying one. You're not prepared for the responsibility and extra care needed when bringing a deadly item into public spaces.
149
Any fool who brings firearms or other lethal weapons on an airplane, inadvertently or not, needs to be banned from flying for life, at the very least.
57
Guns for hunting or collecting I can understand. I find the 'gun for protection' belief sad. Even if a person encounters a violent situation (a very unlikely possibility for most of us), how likely is it that he/she would be able to retrieve that gun from purse, pocket, or holster and use it appropriately without getting hurt or making the situation worse, e.g., moving the situation from one of loosing one's wallet to one in which someone is seriously hurt or killed?
136
I think we can all agree that someone who 'forgets' they are carrying a gun and take it to an inappropriate locale is irresponsible and should pay the consequences. Perhaps they should be charged with a felony, be given a minimum number of days in jail (time served?) and have their right to own a gun severed.
That would cause these forgetful folks pause, if their irresponsible behavior, if caught, would remove their right to carry.
But there is no rational reason to conflate these very few individuals (a couple thousand a year at most) with the millions of CCL holders. Perhaps in your locale and your lifestyle there is no convincing argument for concealed carry for you. That neither means there is none for anyone nor does it mean your opinion should prevail.
As recently as the issuance of the CDC study requested by President Obama we have reports that there are, in fact, circumstances which can be seen to support the opposing view:
“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states.
That would cause these forgetful folks pause, if their irresponsible behavior, if caught, would remove their right to carry.
But there is no rational reason to conflate these very few individuals (a couple thousand a year at most) with the millions of CCL holders. Perhaps in your locale and your lifestyle there is no convincing argument for concealed carry for you. That neither means there is none for anyone nor does it mean your opinion should prevail.
As recently as the issuance of the CDC study requested by President Obama we have reports that there are, in fact, circumstances which can be seen to support the opposing view:
“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states.
4
No kidding. Aim a gun at an attacker and he will choose to shoot you first. Look what happened to that brave Muslim cop in Paris.
5
'Law enforcement officials and aviation security experts say it’s an exasperating trend resulting primarily from more people legally carrying concealed handguns for self-protection.'
I have flown on an airline dozens of times, yet have never felt the urge to protect myself on a flight. We live in such a strange, weird culture of gun fetishists who evidently are terrified of something or someone. Of whom or what I have no idea.
What are the odds of actually needing a gun in your everyday life, let alone at the airport? I have lived in city, suburb and rural settings and not once in several decades of life have I felt a need to carry a weapon around with me.
I have flown on an airline dozens of times, yet have never felt the urge to protect myself on a flight. We live in such a strange, weird culture of gun fetishists who evidently are terrified of something or someone. Of whom or what I have no idea.
What are the odds of actually needing a gun in your everyday life, let alone at the airport? I have lived in city, suburb and rural settings and not once in several decades of life have I felt a need to carry a weapon around with me.
180
I think the point was that they carry them all the time and don't think to take them off when entering an airport TSA line. They forget they have a gun.
Which is actually worse, because if you don't remember you have a gun then it is just as likely you will take it with you to the neighbor kids sixth birthday party when the neighbors have expressly said they do not allow guns in their house.
It does not matter how low your opinion might be of the TSA or airport regulations but if you don't agree with your neighbor then you should either leave it at home or don't go over.
Guns are neither accessories or toys, but that does seem to be the way a lot of people feel about them.
Which is actually worse, because if you don't remember you have a gun then it is just as likely you will take it with you to the neighbor kids sixth birthday party when the neighbors have expressly said they do not allow guns in their house.
It does not matter how low your opinion might be of the TSA or airport regulations but if you don't agree with your neighbor then you should either leave it at home or don't go over.
Guns are neither accessories or toys, but that does seem to be the way a lot of people feel about them.
26
"I think the point was that they carry them all the time and don't think"
For some people it becomes like the weight of a wallet. They just don't notice it. It is more likely for someone who does not make carrying a gun into a person fetish, like a cop or investigator for whom it is just a tool.
For some people it becomes like the weight of a wallet. They just don't notice it. It is more likely for someone who does not make carrying a gun into a person fetish, like a cop or investigator for whom it is just a tool.
2
Agree with you 100%, Tim. I can't understand all these people who delude themselves that they're so brave when in fact they're nothing more than scaredy cats, walking around in fear.
14
People just forget the most astonishing things.
I am far more troubled that something can be perfectly legal and properly done getting on a plane, yet be a felony when getting off the same plane at its scheduled destination, people hauled off to jail. That's sick.
I am far more troubled that something can be perfectly legal and properly done getting on a plane, yet be a felony when getting off the same plane at its scheduled destination, people hauled off to jail. That's sick.
19
It happened to Mark Meckler, founder of the Tea Party who lives in my area. I think he was arrested, fined and had to forfeit the gun to NY authorities.
It's when they're leaving that they get caught, but yes, once they touch down in NY with the unauthorized gun, they are an outlaw for their entire stay in NY.
There's no excuse for not knowing. Should I get a pass if I'm from CO or WA and smoke a joint in Oklahoma? It's even more important to know the state law when it's a deadly weapon.
It's when they're leaving that they get caught, but yes, once they touch down in NY with the unauthorized gun, they are an outlaw for their entire stay in NY.
There's no excuse for not knowing. Should I get a pass if I'm from CO or WA and smoke a joint in Oklahoma? It's even more important to know the state law when it's a deadly weapon.
94
No. That's a very good idea. If you "oops, I forgot" and carry a gun into Mexico, you'll be jailed for months or even years. Maybe next time, those sick, paranoid jerks who think they need "protection" 24/7 will put their dangerous toys away.
100
Marijuana is legal in Colorado (and will likely be legalized in states like New York long before it is legal in open-carry-gun states). But would it be equally troubling and "sick" if someone brought pot from Colorado, where it's perfectly legal, and was hauled off to jail upon arrival at DFW, where it's illegal?
A trip to jail might be a bit extreme, and a summons more appropriate. But residents of states like Texas and Georgia have to understand that their laissez faire attitude toward handguns is not universal, and states like New York consider "packing heat" a serious and dangerous thing. It should be a no-brainer to check your destination's laws to see if your Glock is legal.
By the way, a few years back, a colleague flying into DFW had her bag searched because something looked on the scanner like a sex toy. And, until a few years ago, sex toys were illegal in Texas. But not guns.
A trip to jail might be a bit extreme, and a summons more appropriate. But residents of states like Texas and Georgia have to understand that their laissez faire attitude toward handguns is not universal, and states like New York consider "packing heat" a serious and dangerous thing. It should be a no-brainer to check your destination's laws to see if your Glock is legal.
By the way, a few years back, a colleague flying into DFW had her bag searched because something looked on the scanner like a sex toy. And, until a few years ago, sex toys were illegal in Texas. But not guns.
72