Speaker: Maulana Muhammad Mukhtar
Location: Jamia Masjid Anwar Madina, Narang Mandi, Sheikhupura
Sect: Barelvi
Language: Urdu
Time: June 2010
http://imams.mashalbooks.org/?p=636
(This web-site has a collection of sermons given in Pakistani mosques 2010-11).
Quote:
Says Abu Bakr Farsi Shafei: the punishment for the insulter of the Prophet PBUH is death. There is no other punishment for such a man than death. The Prophet PBUH himself made the insulter of the Prophet stand between the fountain of Zamzam and Muqam-e-Ibrahim and had him killed. Hazrat Anas Bin Malik narrates than a man used to curse the Prophet PBUH. After Makka was won and the man realised that he would now be called to account for his insults and that Muslims will kill him he ran and took refuge in Kaaba and clung to the cloth that covered the Kaaba. The Prophet PBUH was informed that his insulter was standing clinging to the Kaaba. The Prophet said go and bring him to me and then sever his head in front of me. The Prophet, after the victory of Makka, forgave all but did not forgive the man who had apostatised himself by turning away from Islam and the man who had insulted him including the one who used to pay the prostitutes to sing songs against the Prophet PBUH. Now you know what the punishment for the insulter is. The punishment for blasphemy is death.
Location: Jamia Masjid Anwar Madina, Narang Mandi, Sheikhupura
Sect: Barelvi
Language: Urdu
Time: June 2010
http://imams.mashalbooks.org/?p=636
(This web-site has a collection of sermons given in Pakistani mosques 2010-11).
Quote:
Says Abu Bakr Farsi Shafei: the punishment for the insulter of the Prophet PBUH is death. There is no other punishment for such a man than death. The Prophet PBUH himself made the insulter of the Prophet stand between the fountain of Zamzam and Muqam-e-Ibrahim and had him killed. Hazrat Anas Bin Malik narrates than a man used to curse the Prophet PBUH. After Makka was won and the man realised that he would now be called to account for his insults and that Muslims will kill him he ran and took refuge in Kaaba and clung to the cloth that covered the Kaaba. The Prophet PBUH was informed that his insulter was standing clinging to the Kaaba. The Prophet said go and bring him to me and then sever his head in front of me. The Prophet, after the victory of Makka, forgave all but did not forgive the man who had apostatised himself by turning away from Islam and the man who had insulted him including the one who used to pay the prostitutes to sing songs against the Prophet PBUH. Now you know what the punishment for the insulter is. The punishment for blasphemy is death.
7
I don't understand how the whole world has gotten into to the very dangerous habit of calling the psychopaths who commit these horrible atrocities "
"Islamic Extremists" when clearly mass murderers is much more of an accurate term. These brutal crimes are committed by people who believe in destruction and oppression not in religion. They may say it is religion but it is not and we are only empowering their tyrannical cause by jumping into to their delusion with them by using the term Islamic in our description of them.
Saudi Arabia is a tribal totalitarian regime NOT an Islamic regime. It doesn't matter if you are German or Irish or Pakistani or American or Serbian or Russian or Turkish or Saudi Arabian or wherever.... when psychopaths and/or sociopaths are in a position of power humanity is in trouble.
"Islamic Extremists" when clearly mass murderers is much more of an accurate term. These brutal crimes are committed by people who believe in destruction and oppression not in religion. They may say it is religion but it is not and we are only empowering their tyrannical cause by jumping into to their delusion with them by using the term Islamic in our description of them.
Saudi Arabia is a tribal totalitarian regime NOT an Islamic regime. It doesn't matter if you are German or Irish or Pakistani or American or Serbian or Russian or Turkish or Saudi Arabian or wherever.... when psychopaths and/or sociopaths are in a position of power humanity is in trouble.
4
Your columns are always insightful and reflect deep understanding of the Muslim religion and Muslim societies, which May be attributed to your having lived in Cairo, Egypt while attending AUC. Saudi Wahhabi teachings and puritanical interpretation of the Koran has been the main source of radical Islam and the recent rise of terrorist activities. As you may know, the founder of modern Egypt, Mohamed Ali had the foresight, back in the eighteenth century, to see the danger the Wahhabi movement posed to Islam and Muslim societies. He dispatched his son Ibrahim Pasha to eliminate them, which he almost did. They went underground until Abdul Aziz Iben Saud made a pact with them to give them free hand to spread their backward ideology in exchange for helping him invade other tribes in Arabian Peninsula to for form his Saudi Kingdom. The Wahhabis will continue to use Saudi treasures to spread their extreme ideology through their funded schools and mosques , all over the world including non Muslim Societies like the US, Europe and Asia.
An effective way to solve this growing problems may require the Saudi government to dissolve its marriage to the Wahhabis and to dry up all the sources of finance to their schools and charities all over the world.
I suspect that this solution will be adopted any time soon, given our dependence of Saudi oil and the heavy reliance of our defense industry on the billions of dollars they annually receive for military sales in the region.
An effective way to solve this growing problems may require the Saudi government to dissolve its marriage to the Wahhabis and to dry up all the sources of finance to their schools and charities all over the world.
I suspect that this solution will be adopted any time soon, given our dependence of Saudi oil and the heavy reliance of our defense industry on the billions of dollars they annually receive for military sales in the region.
6
Near the top of his column Kristof notes that Islam does not punish blasphemy. Near the end he names a woman Asia Bibi, on death row in Pakistan for violating its blasphemy law.
9
Civil Rights Workers in Mississippi, Martin Luther King, Socrates, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Voltaire, Diderot, Morellet, Rousseau, John Tutchin, thomas Aikenhead, John Twyer, John Matthews...
That's the thing about reform, sometimes it requires you to be a hero, so I'm not entirely sure the point that you are trying to make. That we in the west should stop calling for Islam to step up, figure itself out, and become better world citizens, because it is dangerous. Or that we in the west can't understand the transitional period that Islam is going though because we don't have a similar repressive regimes and people who said "I'm willing to ... For freedom"
That's the thing about reform, sometimes it requires you to be a hero, so I'm not entirely sure the point that you are trying to make. That we in the west should stop calling for Islam to step up, figure itself out, and become better world citizens, because it is dangerous. Or that we in the west can't understand the transitional period that Islam is going though because we don't have a similar repressive regimes and people who said "I'm willing to ... For freedom"
2
The Serbs are Serbian Orthodox, which is effectively part of the Russian Orthodox Church. (The Croats are Roman Catholics). Bill O'Reilly. who is an Irish American and a Roman Catholic, *does* need to apologise for the misconduct of the Roman Church because by remaining a member he tacitly condones the cover-ups conducted at the highest level by Church functionaries. As a Fox pundit, O'Reilly also needs to demand that those in the Provos who bombed and shot, likewise be brought to justice.
If I have shares in a Big Tobacco multinational, then I am responsible for the actions of Big Tobacco. If I don't like what they do, then I should write to the firm's Chairman and the CEO, raise my concerns publicly at the AGM. Finally, I need to sell my shares and donate the profits to a lung cancer charity.
Yes, all Sunni Muslims do share in the responsibility for the outrageous behaviour of the Saudis, just as all Shiite Muslims share in the responsibility for the outrageous behaviour of the Iranian National Guard, and for Khomeini's fatwas against Rushdie and the like. No Sunni or Shiite has to remain in their religion. Sure, apostasy carries a heavy penalty if you live in Iran or Saudi Arabia. But that rather proves my point: Sunni and Shiite Islam are unconscionable ideologies, and none of us should have any more to do with them than we should won shares in Big Tobacco or support the Provisional IRA.
If I have shares in a Big Tobacco multinational, then I am responsible for the actions of Big Tobacco. If I don't like what they do, then I should write to the firm's Chairman and the CEO, raise my concerns publicly at the AGM. Finally, I need to sell my shares and donate the profits to a lung cancer charity.
Yes, all Sunni Muslims do share in the responsibility for the outrageous behaviour of the Saudis, just as all Shiite Muslims share in the responsibility for the outrageous behaviour of the Iranian National Guard, and for Khomeini's fatwas against Rushdie and the like. No Sunni or Shiite has to remain in their religion. Sure, apostasy carries a heavy penalty if you live in Iran or Saudi Arabia. But that rather proves my point: Sunni and Shiite Islam are unconscionable ideologies, and none of us should have any more to do with them than we should won shares in Big Tobacco or support the Provisional IRA.
3
You simply cannot accuse somebody else of blasphemy without blaspheming yourself, because you have to claim to know what God thinks about the matter, and nobody could possibly know that.
7
Let all the commenters know, that when they question Islam as having something fundamentally wrong with it, they are to some degree contributing to the problem of terrorism. They are simply playing into the hands of the terrorists, for they can say their way is the only way, because the moderates will never be given their due, no matter what they do. In fact, if you degrade Islam, you are degrading all of the triad of Monotheism, 'People of the Book.' Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. If God is absent from one of them, He is absent from them all. Like all pursuits of the cognitive goal of truth, there are errors made; in science and in religion, mistakes recognized is progress. India had advanced religious practices when the west was still living in caves, and even there, Islam came to add to the diversity of religious thought, and lifted up people who otherwise would not have gained. It comes as a great shock to people that it was an Islamic scholar that re-birthed the Greek texts in the western world, and it was those texts that lead to the Enlightenment. And by the way, it was the Catholic Fathers who had suppressed them. For myself, it is the teachings of Jesus that lead the way. But his unique insight that we project our inner conflicts out into the world, rather than dealing with them, has relevance for the entire species, and surely for this discussion. Those insights come from all of the great thinkers in all who are 'People of the Book'.
1
I think all three principle "prophets" of Abrahamic religions, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad, tried to get people to stop taking refuge behind imaginary divinities to preclude negotiating their differences rationally.
1
Another excellent analysis. Thank you, Mr. Kristof.
2
It is discouraging to read many of the comments made in response to Kristof's column. There is little strategic grasp of the situation. Many writers seem to think with some justification that kicking Saudi Arabia will solve the problem.
We should remember that the West underwent a period of several bloody centuries of conflict over religion. The real problem is that the Moslem world that had preserved much if not all of the Classical world's learning for the West's benefit failed to keep pace with the modernization of the Western world when the world's trade routes changed and poverty overtook the Middle East as a result. As so often happens when things go wrong, fundamentalism takes over.
The best we can probably do is contain the problem to the Middle East as best we can while offering aid to Moslem moderates when we can while the problem painfully burns itself out over several decades. Quick, simplistic solutions will not work. Problems that have built up over decades will require decades to be finally solved. The Western world, without panic, must maintain a strong, patient, disciplined containment of the problem offering guidance where we can just as we won the Cold War.
We should recognize that there will ups and downs that should not be allowed to destroy our civil liberties nor our faith in our hard won Western civilization. We American's should remember that our own race problem has not yet been fully solved after the Civil War was won some 150 years ago.
We should remember that the West underwent a period of several bloody centuries of conflict over religion. The real problem is that the Moslem world that had preserved much if not all of the Classical world's learning for the West's benefit failed to keep pace with the modernization of the Western world when the world's trade routes changed and poverty overtook the Middle East as a result. As so often happens when things go wrong, fundamentalism takes over.
The best we can probably do is contain the problem to the Middle East as best we can while offering aid to Moslem moderates when we can while the problem painfully burns itself out over several decades. Quick, simplistic solutions will not work. Problems that have built up over decades will require decades to be finally solved. The Western world, without panic, must maintain a strong, patient, disciplined containment of the problem offering guidance where we can just as we won the Cold War.
We should recognize that there will ups and downs that should not be allowed to destroy our civil liberties nor our faith in our hard won Western civilization. We American's should remember that our own race problem has not yet been fully solved after the Civil War was won some 150 years ago.
5
Evidently dogs evolved from wolves faster than people can evolve past the silly notion that the universe emotionally reacts to what people do.
2
When are we going to wake up to the fact that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are not our allies?
Or as a friend of mine used to say, "With friends like these, who needs enemies?"
Or as a friend of mine used to say, "With friends like these, who needs enemies?"
4
Nick,
I liked the following lines in your write-up: Let’s resist simplistic narratives on our side, for they’ve already done enough damage in the Islamic world, and in truth Islam is as complex and diverse as, say, “journalism.”
There are few talking heads advocating patience, deliberation, and caution in "solving" the current Islamic militant problems. Everyone is trying to outdo the other person in suggested all-or-nothing let's-git-er-done solutions. The French problem, if I can call it that, is going to take hard work to address; so much of that work is at a grass-roots level. It remains necessary for all Imams to blog openly about tolerance all around and zero-tolerance for attacking anyone. If Raif Badawi can do it from Saudi Arabia, then surely Imams living in freer countries can do so too. Or, as I have long suspected, are the Imams around the world afraid of Fatwas?
I liked the following lines in your write-up: Let’s resist simplistic narratives on our side, for they’ve already done enough damage in the Islamic world, and in truth Islam is as complex and diverse as, say, “journalism.”
There are few talking heads advocating patience, deliberation, and caution in "solving" the current Islamic militant problems. Everyone is trying to outdo the other person in suggested all-or-nothing let's-git-er-done solutions. The French problem, if I can call it that, is going to take hard work to address; so much of that work is at a grass-roots level. It remains necessary for all Imams to blog openly about tolerance all around and zero-tolerance for attacking anyone. If Raif Badawi can do it from Saudi Arabia, then surely Imams living in freer countries can do so too. Or, as I have long suspected, are the Imams around the world afraid of Fatwas?
1
It is very frustrating to read this column by Mr Kristof, who rightly points out the culpability of Arab governments like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan in supporting and making possible the practice of an extremem form of Islam, but doesnt make the connection that these practices vy Arab Governments (as well as their endorsement and supports of verious Arab terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah) make it possible foe estreme radical islamic fascism to be acceptable to Muslims, and make it impossible for moderate muslims to advocate against it. Wouldnt it is be better for the way on Radical Isalm if Arab govenenments themselves stopped supporting and practicing it (as in the case of Bardawi in Saudi Arabia?? Lashings? How barbaric must we become as a word, and how much longer will we look away from barbarims on the part of world governments? And where is our governments ourtrage, and advocacy for human rights in these countries??
3
Nick
You should have gone on Bill O'Reilly's show. His concern, as is mine, is that the day after the Paris murders, your initial was concern about a backlash against Muslims. Instead of denouncing the attack on Charlie Hebdo, your message was of tolerance. For muslims.
To write that later, yes. To write that immediately, however, was appalling. I don't think any Times readers were intended to go out and burn mosques.
Whether you like it or not, almost all terrorist attacks in the world are by Islamic Jihadists. And there are thousands active right now. And while the majority of Muslims may be moderate, let's not ignore the fact that many of these terrorists receive financial aid encouragement from supposed moderates.
There are areas where Islam as a culture and western culture share similar values, but many areas where they do not. We ignore these differences at our peril.
And don't forget, most Germans weren't initially Nazis. Many never became Nazis but most Germans supported their war effort and objectives and rejoiced when Panzers rolled into country after country. Let's not forget the videos of Muslims celebrating after 9/11.
Asking Bill O'Reilly to apologize for IRA bombings is sophomoric. The Irish fought/fight for independence. Jihadists fight to kill any they consider infidels, basically people like you and me.
You should have gone on Bill O'Reilly's show. His concern, as is mine, is that the day after the Paris murders, your initial was concern about a backlash against Muslims. Instead of denouncing the attack on Charlie Hebdo, your message was of tolerance. For muslims.
To write that later, yes. To write that immediately, however, was appalling. I don't think any Times readers were intended to go out and burn mosques.
Whether you like it or not, almost all terrorist attacks in the world are by Islamic Jihadists. And there are thousands active right now. And while the majority of Muslims may be moderate, let's not ignore the fact that many of these terrorists receive financial aid encouragement from supposed moderates.
There are areas where Islam as a culture and western culture share similar values, but many areas where they do not. We ignore these differences at our peril.
And don't forget, most Germans weren't initially Nazis. Many never became Nazis but most Germans supported their war effort and objectives and rejoiced when Panzers rolled into country after country. Let's not forget the videos of Muslims celebrating after 9/11.
Asking Bill O'Reilly to apologize for IRA bombings is sophomoric. The Irish fought/fight for independence. Jihadists fight to kill any they consider infidels, basically people like you and me.
14
Where is John Kerry? Why doesn't our government intervene?
When I saw the video about the Malaysian jihadist who said that the way to go to heaven was to become a "martyr," my first reaction, "That is so messed up!" Really, does Islam actually teach that? So I would agree with Ben from NYC that the majority of Muslims are being disingenuous to say that Islam is not to be blamed.
All religions can be misappropriated and misused by flawed human beings to serve their selfish bidding. When given enough dominance and therefore power, religious people can kill in the name of their religion -- Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, now Muslims, all have done it.
Unfortunately, this has to be their conversation, a very difficult one as we saw in Badawi's 1000 slashes. The Saudi had not learnt from the mistake of the Catholic Church for persecuting Galileo for his heliocentricity view. I am so very humbled by Badawi's courage, the Islam needs more Muslims like him to survive into the 21st century as a force of goodness and not evil.
All religions can be misappropriated and misused by flawed human beings to serve their selfish bidding. When given enough dominance and therefore power, religious people can kill in the name of their religion -- Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, now Muslims, all have done it.
Unfortunately, this has to be their conversation, a very difficult one as we saw in Badawi's 1000 slashes. The Saudi had not learnt from the mistake of the Catholic Church for persecuting Galileo for his heliocentricity view. I am so very humbled by Badawi's courage, the Islam needs more Muslims like him to survive into the 21st century as a force of goodness and not evil.
4
There is no conceivable form of idolatry that will spare anyone from the eventual oblivion of death.
1
When the religious fundamentalism is inspired, spread, promoted and financed by Saudi Arabia, the US government bombs and invades Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Libya.
No wonder why we have failed to stop them over the last 13 years...
No wonder why we have failed to stop them over the last 13 years...
3
"When the religious fundamentalism is inspired, spread, promoted and financed by Saudi Arabia..." and Pakistan and Syria and Iran and Iraq and Egypt and Lebanon and Hezbollah and Libya and Tunisia and Morrocco and Quatar and Sudan and Bahrain and Russia and China
This is much more the the United States, US policy and Saudi Arabia
This is much more the the United States, US policy and Saudi Arabia
To know where extremism comes from and where it's going in today's world you have to follow the money. The Saudis have long used their petro dollars to fund terrorism. The Iranians likewise. And other players who get involved in fighting proxy wars using asymmetrical warfare (i.e., terrorism). Their money is also used to support torture in the name of religion. But if we in the US look in the mirror we may not like the images of big money supporting terrorism and torture in our own country. Right wing extremists who think they can use our government to further their own beliefs by buying its officials are responsible for policies that support torture and religious extremism. How are the two groups different? After all they both pray to "God." And "God" tells them who to target. Except that some speak Arabic and the others English. So before we start pointing fingers of blame at Muslims, let's get our own house in order! I think a radical leader in his time by the name of Jesus recommended that approach. But could he get elected to the US House today?
"They did it first!" is the standard excuse for it here.
"Hmm. When Bill O’Reilly apologizes for I.R.A. bombings and the genocide by Christian Serbs, then Muslims will no doubt apologize for Paris." We need to stop this moral equivalency and apologist philosophy when it comes to Islamism. The IRA was a terrorist group isolated to Great Britain, not an international organization such as Al Qaeda or ISIS. The genocide of Muslims by Christians in Bosnia was STOPPED by Western Christians, while Muslims stand by and do nothing in the face of Christian persecution throughout the Islamic world.
These are not isolated gunman killing in a vacuum. Kristof just listed the myriad cases of religious oppression and persecution that is LEGAL in most Muslim nations. Pew polls in moderate countries such as Egypt show that over 80% favor death as punishment for leaving Islam or blaspheming Mohammed. The Global Terrorism Database show that of the 10 countries that top the list on such bombings, Muslim dominated nations are 7 of them. And don't even get us started on Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Iran. Stop with the nonsense of 'Yeah, this is bad but we sorta are too". Self-flagellating babble.
These are not isolated gunman killing in a vacuum. Kristof just listed the myriad cases of religious oppression and persecution that is LEGAL in most Muslim nations. Pew polls in moderate countries such as Egypt show that over 80% favor death as punishment for leaving Islam or blaspheming Mohammed. The Global Terrorism Database show that of the 10 countries that top the list on such bombings, Muslim dominated nations are 7 of them. And don't even get us started on Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Iran. Stop with the nonsense of 'Yeah, this is bad but we sorta are too". Self-flagellating babble.
12
"There is a difference between murdering cartoonists and flogging bloggers. But still!"
Yeah. The latter is a lot worse, because it was done by THE STATE. The former is awful, of course--but it was done by outlaws, and the victims had the full backing of the law.
Yeah. The latter is a lot worse, because it was done by THE STATE. The former is awful, of course--but it was done by outlaws, and the victims had the full backing of the law.
3
"Hmm. When Bill O’Reilly apologizes for I.R.A. bombings and the genocide by Christian Serbs, then Muslims will no doubt apologize for Paris."
Oh Hmm. Is Bill O'Reilly really that central than anything other than his Fox audience? I seriously doubt Muslims are sitting around waiting for an apology from O'Reilly or from any IRA supporters (the IRA is irrelevant to the issue of Islamic radicalism). No excuses for the Serb genocide, but its a little convenient to label it "Christian" and lets not forget the Serbs were oppressed by the Bosnians who collaborated with the Nazi's in WW2, something that was conveniently not mentioned in the 90s. Again no excuses for the Serbs, but we are always reminded of the long history of Arab-Israeli conflict and colonialism, so lets remember other long histories as well.
Oh Hmm. Is Bill O'Reilly really that central than anything other than his Fox audience? I seriously doubt Muslims are sitting around waiting for an apology from O'Reilly or from any IRA supporters (the IRA is irrelevant to the issue of Islamic radicalism). No excuses for the Serb genocide, but its a little convenient to label it "Christian" and lets not forget the Serbs were oppressed by the Bosnians who collaborated with the Nazi's in WW2, something that was conveniently not mentioned in the 90s. Again no excuses for the Serbs, but we are always reminded of the long history of Arab-Israeli conflict and colonialism, so lets remember other long histories as well.
2
By the way, I wonder when the German Nazi troops started the World War II and the bloody bombings of the civilian targets and the cities across the Old Continent, the concentrations camps and Holocaust or shooting of the all elementary school students in Yugoslavian city Kragujevac, were they blessed by the priests before they were deployed to the conflict or not?
Were they blessed regularly by the troop chaplains?
If we used the same logic we use today for the ISIS-led massacres, one would have concluded those crime where committed by the Christian militants...
Were they blessed regularly by the troop chaplains?
If we used the same logic we use today for the ISIS-led massacres, one would have concluded those crime where committed by the Christian militants...
2
If you ask me, the Middle East resembles Europe during the Middle Ages. There is no economic development and no political stability like the kind you see in East Asia. Under these dire conditions, people naturally turn to religion not only for their spiritual needs but for answers to all their temporal problems as well. Wealth is concentrated into hands of a small group of royal families who use their influence to maintain the status quo and instill the fear of God on everyone.
In order for the religious moderates to prevail in the Middle East, you will have to put the horse before the cart. It's not going to happen with a bunch of inspirational speeches. For starters, the region desperately needs political stability and economic development where wealth is accessible to all. When people feel good about themselves and about their future, the world is less of a frightening place and they will less likely turn to religion for all their answers other than their spiritual ones. Hence, the effective separation of church and state. And its not going to happen overnight. By the way, It's no coincidence that Turkey and Egypt have a large moderate Muslim population.
In order for the religious moderates to prevail in the Middle East, you will have to put the horse before the cart. It's not going to happen with a bunch of inspirational speeches. For starters, the region desperately needs political stability and economic development where wealth is accessible to all. When people feel good about themselves and about their future, the world is less of a frightening place and they will less likely turn to religion for all their answers other than their spiritual ones. Hence, the effective separation of church and state. And its not going to happen overnight. By the way, It's no coincidence that Turkey and Egypt have a large moderate Muslim population.
1
I the western countries we don’t blame the Christianity for the existence of the violent gangs, gun-related deaths, crimes, rapes, corruption, slavery, genocides, wars, occupations, colonial empires, mall massacres, concentration camps, Oklahoma bombing, cinema shootings or similar...
However, for us the Muslim world is the simpler place.
We just blame the Islam for every problem...
However, for us the Muslim world is the simpler place.
We just blame the Islam for every problem...
2
Saudi Arabia not only legitimizes Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance. Saudis and Qataris are financing Muslim terrorists all around the globe.
I really don't understand why media still consider Saudis as US allies, Saudis are US worst and most dangerous enemy, remember 9/11.
I really don't understand why media still consider Saudis as US allies, Saudis are US worst and most dangerous enemy, remember 9/11.
3
It is truly mind-bogling: basically every day (today, Boko Haram's slaughter in Nigeria) there is evidence that Islam in its fundamentalist form is not only the work of a few erring souls, but a murderous branch of Islam. However, even the mainstream Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Middle East (and Pakistan) has severe (jail, death)punishments for blasphemy, apostasy, and perceived insults to the religion, never mind its systemic subjugation of women. And yet, instead of arguing strenuously against the tenets of this religion, we are treated with avoidance, usually buttressed by statements that the bible has even worse prescriptions for sinners and Christianity its own history of violence. All true, but it is hundreds of years ago, and that does matter. If during the Enlightenment, the secular voices would have had the same restraint in criticizing the church and its teachings, it would never have been successful breaking the stranglehold of the church on its interpretation of truth, its imposition of morality and its insistence on the supremacy of religious law over secular law. This same discussion is necessary with Islam, and by necessity, if it is to be had, it will offend. Intolerance not of the murderous kind, but of the kind practiced in Saudi Arabia is not an aberration of the 'true Islam', but the mainstream. And as such it should be confronted determinedly, instead of whitewashing essential differences in order to not offend anyone.
3
The simplistic narrative is saying that religion X is a religion of peace, or that all religions are equally bad or equally good.
Conversely, it is also simplistic to say that all people who believe in religion X are the same -- good or bad. Criticizing all people of X is meaningless with its intellectual laziness. Criticizing a specific belief (punishment for blasphemy) or priority (that men should have institutional privilege over women) is absolutely meaningful.
The set of normative beliefs and priorities assigned to a religion is subjective and varies over history. The (median -- for lack of a better term) Christianity of the Middle Ages is different from Christianity now. During the Middle Ages, when there was majority political consent for witch burnings and inquisitions -- open criticism of certain beliefs ascribed to normative Christianity, religious political power, and the political groups that advocated such intolerance was sorely needed and necessary -- and was the medicine that addressed the illness.
The Middle East is plagued with a lack of open questioning of dominant ideas... of how to address the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, of questioning what to believe regarding Islam, of questioning the political importance of religion, of questioning the roles of men and women, etc...
The modern world encourages the questioning, revision, and improvement of social & ideological paradigms, of flaws in our concepts of equal rights.
Conversely, it is also simplistic to say that all people who believe in religion X are the same -- good or bad. Criticizing all people of X is meaningless with its intellectual laziness. Criticizing a specific belief (punishment for blasphemy) or priority (that men should have institutional privilege over women) is absolutely meaningful.
The set of normative beliefs and priorities assigned to a religion is subjective and varies over history. The (median -- for lack of a better term) Christianity of the Middle Ages is different from Christianity now. During the Middle Ages, when there was majority political consent for witch burnings and inquisitions -- open criticism of certain beliefs ascribed to normative Christianity, religious political power, and the political groups that advocated such intolerance was sorely needed and necessary -- and was the medicine that addressed the illness.
The Middle East is plagued with a lack of open questioning of dominant ideas... of how to address the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, of questioning what to believe regarding Islam, of questioning the political importance of religion, of questioning the roles of men and women, etc...
The modern world encourages the questioning, revision, and improvement of social & ideological paradigms, of flaws in our concepts of equal rights.
4
The first half of the article was excellent. Then it degenerated into the only thing we have to fear is Islamophobia itself. And Fox News.
We have a wonderful tradition in this country of tolerance in the face of horrific acts of violence perpetrated by Islamic terrorists. After the 1996 attacks to USS COLE to 9/11, Ft Hood and beyond, we form ourselves into a circular firing squad and blame Clinton, Bush, Obama, the Israelis, liberals and conservatives with an anger almost pathological. But there's never been the great anti-Muslim backlash. Because we're not that kind of people, except to ourselves. And Fox News.
We have a wonderful tradition in this country of tolerance in the face of horrific acts of violence perpetrated by Islamic terrorists. After the 1996 attacks to USS COLE to 9/11, Ft Hood and beyond, we form ourselves into a circular firing squad and blame Clinton, Bush, Obama, the Israelis, liberals and conservatives with an anger almost pathological. But there's never been the great anti-Muslim backlash. Because we're not that kind of people, except to ourselves. And Fox News.
5
Kristof claims: "the Koran prescribes no punishment at all for blasphemers besides telling others to keep their distance from them."
He refers to the Koran's sura, 4:140. There Mohammed, counseled: “when you hear God’s revelations disbelieved in and mocked at, do not sit with them, until they enter into some other discourse.”
That dates to an early period when the prophet's disciples were often confronted by angry Meccans. In response the Messenger armed his companions and champions with mild and reasonable sura, like 4:140 above which advises changing the subject or just leaving hot encounters.
Still, disagreements eventually became so harsh that Mohammed found it prudent to move with his band from Mecca to Medina.
There new followers flocked to him, he won verbal and physical battles and grew famous and formidable. Then the new sura turned harsh and unequivocal. Disbelief and mockery became capital crimes, Thus, for example, although we are told, “the Quran decrees no earthly punishment for blasphemy — or for apostasy,” it actually does. Sura 4:89 for instance warns. “But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them.”
The difference between the Koran and Leviticus is that all Muslims consider the Koran the word of God, who may not be edited. He must be obeyed to the letter. Whereas the highest Jewish authority, the Talmud, has always deemed the Books of Moses subject to exegesis, translation, interpretation and amelioration.
He refers to the Koran's sura, 4:140. There Mohammed, counseled: “when you hear God’s revelations disbelieved in and mocked at, do not sit with them, until they enter into some other discourse.”
That dates to an early period when the prophet's disciples were often confronted by angry Meccans. In response the Messenger armed his companions and champions with mild and reasonable sura, like 4:140 above which advises changing the subject or just leaving hot encounters.
Still, disagreements eventually became so harsh that Mohammed found it prudent to move with his band from Mecca to Medina.
There new followers flocked to him, he won verbal and physical battles and grew famous and formidable. Then the new sura turned harsh and unequivocal. Disbelief and mockery became capital crimes, Thus, for example, although we are told, “the Quran decrees no earthly punishment for blasphemy — or for apostasy,” it actually does. Sura 4:89 for instance warns. “But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them.”
The difference between the Koran and Leviticus is that all Muslims consider the Koran the word of God, who may not be edited. He must be obeyed to the letter. Whereas the highest Jewish authority, the Talmud, has always deemed the Books of Moses subject to exegesis, translation, interpretation and amelioration.
5
In order to free ourselves from the yoke of all religions and all the injustices they bring about in their practices, we must introduce a new imperative " freedom from all religions".
Freedom and religion are mutually exclusive. Freedom entails choice, religion entails obedience and submission. As long as religion is in control freedom doesn't stand a chance.
Freedom must be protected until it becomes second nature.
Freedom and religion are mutually exclusive. Freedom entails choice, religion entails obedience and submission. As long as religion is in control freedom doesn't stand a chance.
Freedom must be protected until it becomes second nature.
3
"There is a difference between murdering cartoonists and flogging bloggers."
Actually, not so much. Fifty lashes is a very severe flogging. Raif survived the first one, but is very unlikely to survive the second.
Actually, not so much. Fifty lashes is a very severe flogging. Raif survived the first one, but is very unlikely to survive the second.
3
Thank you for saying this. The flogging is so abhorrant I can scarcely believe it is being applied in a country that is our dear oil ally without any official comment from the U.S. on its primitiveness. I associate flogging with our own ghastly history of slavery and early seagoing history and it is hard to even take it into my mind that it is happening today. We at least pught to be deploring it, in diplomacy speak.
Also, Mr. Kristof, your sentence about Saudi Arabia "legitimizing" Islamic extremism and intolerance is pretty weak. Saudi Arabia finances and promotes and acts out the violence and extremism with the madrassas, etc. it creates in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan.
When will we stop nurturing and being allies of these terrible regimes even as we slowly try to remove the presence of torture, etc. from our own policies?!
Also, Mr. Kristof, your sentence about Saudi Arabia "legitimizing" Islamic extremism and intolerance is pretty weak. Saudi Arabia finances and promotes and acts out the violence and extremism with the madrassas, etc. it creates in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan.
When will we stop nurturing and being allies of these terrible regimes even as we slowly try to remove the presence of torture, etc. from our own policies?!
6
By making this statement, Its obvious that Mr Kristof never saw a flogging, or the wounds which result from lashes. People often die from this barbaric cruel form of punishment.
6
Maybe we should bring in anthropologist to explain the visceral (for lack of another word) reaction of not only the conservative Muslims but the everyday folk, the latter ones in various forms and degrees. It is like electrons fighting the renegade who wants to get out of the system, and the system is represented either by jihadists or established and recognized countries like Saudi Arabia. Now, how can we avoid an all out war with a country that holds so much energy wealth is the challenge our leaders and us who support them have to tackle with.
2
Nick Kristof couldn't resist pointing out that "The holy book that decrees death for blasphemy is the Bible (Leviticus 24;16). I'd like to ask Nick Kristof when was the last time that Orthodox Jews actually executed someone for blasphemy??
11
I'm with you, Nicholas. Please keep giving us real examples, and every once in a while a catalog.
1
USA continuously make mistakes choosing its allies, like times ago with Cambodia, 10 years ago with the Talibans and today with Saudi Arabia.
Islam is in the 15th century as calendar and mentality, it is at the same stage as we were in our 15th century with the Church's Inquisition and cruelties against supposed “invaded by the Devil”.
So the 15th century is in every times and cultures a dangerous century.
Staying with the today happening in Saudi Arabia, I believe that this country should be slashed from the USA allies, because officially is with USA fighting IS from the air and with the other hand supports financially IS.
Moreover Saudi Arabia is an archaic country with cruel Sharia laws, like condemning a blogger to 1000 lashes, dived in 50 lashes a week, which means killing him slowly and painfully.
Death penalty is already something against my moral principles, but pure cruelty has to be condemned and fought either if comes from IS, either if comes from Saudi Arabia!
It is not acceptable that USA and the Western World have an ally as Saudi Arabia and this topic urges to be solved ASAP by the USA and Western Governments.
Islam is in the 15th century as calendar and mentality, it is at the same stage as we were in our 15th century with the Church's Inquisition and cruelties against supposed “invaded by the Devil”.
So the 15th century is in every times and cultures a dangerous century.
Staying with the today happening in Saudi Arabia, I believe that this country should be slashed from the USA allies, because officially is with USA fighting IS from the air and with the other hand supports financially IS.
Moreover Saudi Arabia is an archaic country with cruel Sharia laws, like condemning a blogger to 1000 lashes, dived in 50 lashes a week, which means killing him slowly and painfully.
Death penalty is already something against my moral principles, but pure cruelty has to be condemned and fought either if comes from IS, either if comes from Saudi Arabia!
It is not acceptable that USA and the Western World have an ally as Saudi Arabia and this topic urges to be solved ASAP by the USA and Western Governments.
6
President Reagan looked for Iranian moderates, never found them. President Obama continues the search. Likewise, we are searching for Islamic moderates. We desperately need them, to counter the effect of Islamic fundamentalism. The massacre of Jewish shoppers in Paris (Islamic terrorists are so brave, killing shoppers), was a tremendous opportunity for moderate Islamic leaders, there are 50+ members of the OIC, to condemn such activity in the name of Islam and show us the moderate face of Islam. It never happened. Only the cartoonist massacre was condemned, not the shooting of Jewish shoppers.
I just checked the CAIR site. No mention of the Kosher grocery massacre of Jewish shoppers in the name of Islam, only the cartoonists. Too bad a journalist such as Mr. Kristof, with a platform of the NYTimes, doesn't ask them to explain themselves. If he wants to support moderate Islam, he needs to dig deeper.
I just checked the CAIR site. No mention of the Kosher grocery massacre of Jewish shoppers in the name of Islam, only the cartoonists. Too bad a journalist such as Mr. Kristof, with a platform of the NYTimes, doesn't ask them to explain themselves. If he wants to support moderate Islam, he needs to dig deeper.
7
Look at the stark facts.
Not a single Muslim majority country is a democracy in the Western ethos of equality to ALL and separation of religion and state.
Only conclusion one can draw is that secular democracies are incompatible with the Muslim traditions and culture of today. It is indeed a "Clash of Civilizations."
Not a single Muslim majority country is a democracy in the Western ethos of equality to ALL and separation of religion and state.
Only conclusion one can draw is that secular democracies are incompatible with the Muslim traditions and culture of today. It is indeed a "Clash of Civilizations."
5
we need sanctions against saudi arabia
4
What the Moslem religion needs is a reformation similar to what shook up Christianity in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The Moslem religion needs more than ever is a Martin Luther who will have the courage and guts to nail the equivalent of a ninety five theses on the door of the main mosque in Riyadh Saudi Arabia. And what's more it needs a Huldrych Zwingli who will do the same thing at the main mosque in Tehran Iran, it's long overdue
4
1000 lashes? What can you possibly say? To call it medieval is a euphemism. Saudi Arabia was never our friend. They are an enemy to freedom, democracy, and human decency. To pretend otherwise is simply to ignore the truth.
6
Mr. Kristoff, though my strong belief is to judge everyone as an individual... It seems to me that of the three Abrahamic faiths, Islam is now the outlier when it comes not evolving with the times...
The manner in which it subjects women, the lack of basic Western style freedoms, that education is restricted to the Koran, the lack of any semblance of justice ... all related to basically Seventh Century ideology.
This has not only led to horrible events like CHARLIE and in the Kosher market last week... But, the du jour which leads to anti-Semitism and anti-Western attitudes... And, there always seems to be a problem with the Jews and now the west and so-called infidels using denial of the very problems that their religion has been visited upon many of them.
Do you know what Boko Haram means? It can be translated into 'no books.' As this version of the multi faceted Muslim faith kidnaps and kills children and sells them as sex slaves or young girls are married to 70 year old men.
Mr. Kristoff, I know of your passion against the mistreatment and abuse of children worldwide. So? And please don't respond that it's different culture for different folks.
The manner in which it subjects women, the lack of basic Western style freedoms, that education is restricted to the Koran, the lack of any semblance of justice ... all related to basically Seventh Century ideology.
This has not only led to horrible events like CHARLIE and in the Kosher market last week... But, the du jour which leads to anti-Semitism and anti-Western attitudes... And, there always seems to be a problem with the Jews and now the west and so-called infidels using denial of the very problems that their religion has been visited upon many of them.
Do you know what Boko Haram means? It can be translated into 'no books.' As this version of the multi faceted Muslim faith kidnaps and kills children and sells them as sex slaves or young girls are married to 70 year old men.
Mr. Kristoff, I know of your passion against the mistreatment and abuse of children worldwide. So? And please don't respond that it's different culture for different folks.
7
Excellent points raised in this column, including the very important fact that anti-Islam backlash is a major part of near-term goals of groups such as Al Qaeda. More repression in and by Western countries is part of their recipe for radicalizing the maximum of the Muslim population worldwide. Hysteria such as voiced on Fox "News" is quite helpful in that regard. Gonna get worse before it gets better, that's for sure. Another important point is that 2 countries who have done more than any others to support and spread murderous radicalism are Saudi Arabia, our big oil-rich "ally" and Pakistan, whom we've given tons of money to because they are our GWOT "ally"
2
I am so tired of people equivocating the Muslim extremists with the Christian far right in the US. Can't we criticize the latter without equating them with the former? I oppose everything the religious right stands for but I am aware that these are luxury concerns, compared to what people — women especially — live with under Muslim theocracies.
Our Christian fundamentalists want to ban abortion, restrict birth control, neglect minorities and the poor, get women to be moms and homemakers rather than have careers, and stop gay marriage. I loathe them for these positions, all of which I disagree with.
But they are not analogous to Muslim fundamentalists, who wish to forbid women from going outside without a man; stone women to death for perceived flirtation; deny women the vote and right to drive; force them into marriages; burn and maim them for bad behavior; shoot girls if they want to go to school; condemning people to jail and 1000 lashes for wanting to reform their religion; not to mention hanging homosexuals in public squares.
The only comparable thing is the radicals who kill doctors in abortion clinics. These are a fringe minority condemned by others, their body count not even close to the tens of thousands of civilians killed by Muslim extremists. Nor are they organized on a global scale and waging a well-armed war across the planet. It is also a very specific thing: abortion, whereas the Muslim extremists are after everyone and everything that is non-Islamic.
Our Christian fundamentalists want to ban abortion, restrict birth control, neglect minorities and the poor, get women to be moms and homemakers rather than have careers, and stop gay marriage. I loathe them for these positions, all of which I disagree with.
But they are not analogous to Muslim fundamentalists, who wish to forbid women from going outside without a man; stone women to death for perceived flirtation; deny women the vote and right to drive; force them into marriages; burn and maim them for bad behavior; shoot girls if they want to go to school; condemning people to jail and 1000 lashes for wanting to reform their religion; not to mention hanging homosexuals in public squares.
The only comparable thing is the radicals who kill doctors in abortion clinics. These are a fringe minority condemned by others, their body count not even close to the tens of thousands of civilians killed by Muslim extremists. Nor are they organized on a global scale and waging a well-armed war across the planet. It is also a very specific thing: abortion, whereas the Muslim extremists are after everyone and everything that is non-Islamic.
16
Nicholas Kristof has convinced me (OK, to be honest, I really needed no persuasion) that “Saudi Arabia legitimizes Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance” and that “Pakistani officials play a similar game”. Would it be possible for him to take a minute away from his obsession with the risk of “Islamophobia” and his focus on a tiny number of valiant Muslim heroes (like Kristof’s friend, former Punjab Governor Salman Taseer, who was assassinated for suggesting the repeal of blasphemy laws, and Saudi liberal Raif Badawi, who was sentenced to 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes for “insulting Islam”) and be prescriptive about EXACTLY what policies he thinks we should implement with respect to these 2 GOVERNMENTS that he sarcastically calls our “allies”?
7
The most effective way to provoke change in our "ally" Saudi Arabia is economically by becoming energy independent through a combination of old technology (oil & gas exploration and production) and new (solar and wind). Then they will not have the means to fund their repressive state.
3
The NYTimes is still ignoring Egyptian President El-Sisi's new Years speech.. Instead of attacking FOX why doesn't Kristoff prove his critics wrong by showing his courage. Attack Sisi who has said exactly what O'Reilly and others have said. Sisi said it is Islamist extremeism and Islam has to fix it. Of course Mr. Sisi has shown the courage neither Kristoff, the Times or Obama have shown. He has said this at one of the most influential places in all of Islam while the other's are too afraid of to say it from the safety of their well protected buildings. They will not even achknowledge Mr. Sisi. It just doesn't fit the story they are trying to get the stupid American citizen to buy. Don't forget, everything is fine in Yemen just as Obama relaeses 5 more terrorists from Gitmo and guess where they came from originally. That's right Ireland and they worked for the IRA. Someone tell Kristoff what year it is.
4
I do agree that all Muslims are not fanatics. In fact in the thirties we never heard of any fanaticism. It was then that the US and West stepped into to the Muslim world, in pursuit of Energy ( Oil ) security. Oil exploitation resulted in ushering in affluence in the Muslim states. People were getting money for jam and this led them into other occupations. religion was the first choice, thanks to the mullas. In their eagerness to exploit, the US and the West inadvertently played one sect ( Sunni ) against another ( Shias ). This led to the historical religious misunderstandings between the two sects into a conflict. This has now become a war of terror, mostly perpetrated by the Sunni sect, against all other sects. The radicalized Sunnis have now spread the hate against all Non- Sunnis, meaning other Muslim sects and people belonging to other religions. Now virtually the entire world is affected. Terror has also become fruitful economic activity, thanks to countries like Pakistan, which has become the nursery for terrorism. Nigeria , Iraq and Syria are affected the most, while other countries are faced with spurts of terror. Current estimates indicate that around 30% of resources in the world are used up in terror related activities, both for and against. If only terror can be eliminated this waste of resources can be diverted towards handling natural calamities, leading to a better quality of life, without fear of this menacing terror.
1
The author is encouraging 'Islamic reformers'!??
How about encouraging Christian reformers at the same time? They are to oppose neo - imperialism exploiting nations for purpose of greed and materialism. For instance, France is profoundly involved in Central Africa with it's nuclear industry. It is to be suspected that they are striking dirty deals with the local potentates to buy them out. Unfortunately, with France now enjoying the position of a victim, such illegal activities will be obscured even more.
How about encouraging Christian reformers at the same time? They are to oppose neo - imperialism exploiting nations for purpose of greed and materialism. For instance, France is profoundly involved in Central Africa with it's nuclear industry. It is to be suspected that they are striking dirty deals with the local potentates to buy them out. Unfortunately, with France now enjoying the position of a victim, such illegal activities will be obscured even more.
I am very disappointed that you have now published two consecutive columns discussing terrorism, Islam and fundamentalist Islam and have failed in both of them to discuss, or even mention, the Islamic concept of Jihad and the fundamentalist Islamic interpretation of Jihad. The concept of Jihad appears to be a highly important element in Islamic terrorism yet you have failed to address that importance and its derivation from fundamentalist cleric teachings.
3
The world would be a far better place if we got the "organized" out of organized religion and were just left with "Religion" it is the people who LEAD religions that are the problem, not those who practice their religion.
4
Shame on NYTimes for not printing front page center photos of the public lashing of Raif Badawi in Saudi Arabia. If this is not news, then nothing is. Most likely argument against display of oil oligarchs' savagery is that such would have an adverse effect on midtown Manhattan real estate prices.
5
Both the IRA and the Christian Serbs were more about politics than religious beliefs. It is disingenuous, at best, to compare them to Islamic terrorism.
3
The one aspect of Islam, and particularly how it is practiced in Saudi Arabia, Is its intolerance of other religions. Islamophobia or anti-Semitism in Europe or the Americas is nothing compared to how non-Muslims are treated in Middle Eastern Islamic countries, frequently as part of official government policy.
Until Islamic majority countries give adherents of other religions the respect Muslims get in the West, I will continue to be suspicious of the Islamic religion.
Until Islamic majority countries give adherents of other religions the respect Muslims get in the West, I will continue to be suspicious of the Islamic religion.
4
Let's not forget that Europe has been through over a thousand years of religious wars and is only 70 years away from it's last religiously/pseudo-racially motivated genocide that destroyed most of European Jewish life. Until blasphemy laws in Muslim dominated countries are revoked and religious freedom respected in those countries then I fear we will continue to see the horrific levels of murder that Europe experienced repeated in the Muslim world. It took a US backed military intervention to stop the ISIS genocide against the Yazidis in northern Iraq. How do we influence moderation and change with our allies in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan? The Obama administration issued a rare rebuke of the Saudis for the sentencing and lashing of Raif Badawi, calling for a rescinding of his sentence. The Saudis have not responded except for the 50 lashes Mr. Badawi already received. It will take more than carefully worded diplomatic messages to pressure these regimes/societies to change. I hope that the Muslim world can save itself in the 21st century before it repeats the mistakes the Europeans made in the 20th.
15
Amen!!
The fundamental probloem is irrationality. The bastion of irrationality is religion. As long as we continue to defer to these inconsistent fantasy realities we cannot have a rational, and hence effective, response to the worlds problems. Refusal to accept reality and continuing to defer to contradictory unrealities leads to nothing but violence and chaos.
2
Lets's take the blindfold off & acknowledge the elephant in the room.
First, Saudi Arabia is a disgrace & has paid off a mafia-like organization of Wahhabi clerics to maintain their lavish lifestyles. This is a very thin piece of ice they have been skating on for some time. And they join many other countries in their power Pyramid scheme. Any distraction from their lavish lifestyles,,, palaces, women, western parties, etc are squashed by the heavy hand of the religious organizations as long as the money flows. Well, oil is way down & the west is beyond fed up. The reason why we are seeing more aggression is quite simply because they now have the means (weaponry and technology) to act on what has been drilled into their minds through culture.
What I can't understand is the utter hypocrisy. They rely completely for any moral value to come from a book that is 1000s of years old. But they aren't using an abacus or riding horses or digging oil fields with their hands. They're plenty modern except when they "don't fit in", then it's back to ancient times with their leaders (religiously and otherwise) doubling down on it and justifying it with more $$ to militants and their deafening silence. The strongest voices in these countries don't say anything bc it draws attention to the fact that they don't adhere to the same laws or live anywhere close to the sames lives as the rest of their countrymen.
First, Saudi Arabia is a disgrace & has paid off a mafia-like organization of Wahhabi clerics to maintain their lavish lifestyles. This is a very thin piece of ice they have been skating on for some time. And they join many other countries in their power Pyramid scheme. Any distraction from their lavish lifestyles,,, palaces, women, western parties, etc are squashed by the heavy hand of the religious organizations as long as the money flows. Well, oil is way down & the west is beyond fed up. The reason why we are seeing more aggression is quite simply because they now have the means (weaponry and technology) to act on what has been drilled into their minds through culture.
What I can't understand is the utter hypocrisy. They rely completely for any moral value to come from a book that is 1000s of years old. But they aren't using an abacus or riding horses or digging oil fields with their hands. They're plenty modern except when they "don't fit in", then it's back to ancient times with their leaders (religiously and otherwise) doubling down on it and justifying it with more $$ to militants and their deafening silence. The strongest voices in these countries don't say anything bc it draws attention to the fact that they don't adhere to the same laws or live anywhere close to the sames lives as the rest of their countrymen.
3
Reform must come from within the Islam. In the meantime, we must condemn violence and protect ourselves, without vilifying Muslims.
A useful example comes from the still-extant Roman Catholic dogma, "Outside the Church there is no salvation." In centuries past, this justified Crusades, forced conversions, etc. Catholic leaders and theologians, step by step, have de-emphasized and reinterpreted this doctrine. Today, the Catholic Church is generally characterized by religious tolerance. As I understand it, the dogma still is part of accepted Catholic teaching...it just isn't a central, driving force anymore.
As I see it, Reform Judaism arose from a similar process. Religious leaders saw that the traditional doctrine just didn't work any longer. Modifications resulted.
Islam is a younger religion and perhaps not naturally at the stage of doctrinal evolution quite yet. But it needs to get there now. The world cannot tolerate this mayhem in the name of religion.
A useful example comes from the still-extant Roman Catholic dogma, "Outside the Church there is no salvation." In centuries past, this justified Crusades, forced conversions, etc. Catholic leaders and theologians, step by step, have de-emphasized and reinterpreted this doctrine. Today, the Catholic Church is generally characterized by religious tolerance. As I understand it, the dogma still is part of accepted Catholic teaching...it just isn't a central, driving force anymore.
As I see it, Reform Judaism arose from a similar process. Religious leaders saw that the traditional doctrine just didn't work any longer. Modifications resulted.
Islam is a younger religion and perhaps not naturally at the stage of doctrinal evolution quite yet. But it needs to get there now. The world cannot tolerate this mayhem in the name of religion.
2
The silver lining?
I've got to believe that if those areas of the globe beset by Islamic fundamentalism sink into enough decay, violence, despair and debauchery, then, eventually, the people will rebel. Of course, then the question becomes and turn to what?
Well, maybe Mubarak, the Shah and Saddam weren't so bad. But let's hope it's something better. And let's start dedicating resources towards that end rather than towards beating up whomever is the particular "threat" today especially since by beating them up we probably extend their ability to survive rather than diminish it as they gather up everybody who (justifiably) hate us to fight with them.
I've got to believe that if those areas of the globe beset by Islamic fundamentalism sink into enough decay, violence, despair and debauchery, then, eventually, the people will rebel. Of course, then the question becomes and turn to what?
Well, maybe Mubarak, the Shah and Saddam weren't so bad. But let's hope it's something better. And let's start dedicating resources towards that end rather than towards beating up whomever is the particular "threat" today especially since by beating them up we probably extend their ability to survive rather than diminish it as they gather up everybody who (justifiably) hate us to fight with them.
2
Why not let people sort it out for themselves? As long as they leave us alone, then they can do whatever they want, believe whatever they want, and kill whomever they want. We should stop worrying about fixing them and reforming them and just realize they are a lost cause. These are millions of people who do not and cannot participate in the world-wide effort to move in to the future. They want to stay in the past. So, let 'em. Eventually reality will catch up to them. It always does. We need to focus on our problems.
The cant and hypocrisy of Mr Netanyahu shows through when he refers to the man who saved the lives of SEVEN JEWS simply as a “citizen of Mali”. Mr Netanyahu, the man who saved the hides of these these seven people of Jewish faith is a Muslim!
Most of the unrest caused by events referred to as terrorist acts in Western Media, is the direct result of Western colonialism (in the past) and presently the imposition of (or succor and support for) unrepresentative governments in Muslim countries. These so called ruling-classes, loot the countries and stash their ill-gotten booty in American and European banks. While the population of these countries starve and lose their sense of Islamic Dignity, the western imposed “moderate” rulers sip Champaign and Whisky (in violation of Islamic norms)
Most of the unrest caused by events referred to as terrorist acts in Western Media, is the direct result of Western colonialism (in the past) and presently the imposition of (or succor and support for) unrepresentative governments in Muslim countries. These so called ruling-classes, loot the countries and stash their ill-gotten booty in American and European banks. While the population of these countries starve and lose their sense of Islamic Dignity, the western imposed “moderate” rulers sip Champaign and Whisky (in violation of Islamic norms)
1
Every American driving gas guzzlers or trucks jacked up with big tires is complicit with funding Saudi's and in so doing are funding Islamic terrorists.
When the Saudi's caved in to extremist Islamic militants in 1979 they set the stage for the world wide jihad and with the trillions of dollars they have gotten through Western dependence on oil they established thousands of rich princes.
Those idle rich princes are funded by the Saudi royal family and just like the rich in the US the "trust fund" kids get up to all kinds of bad behavior but the mom's and dad's can't cut them off due to parental indulgence. The difference is the US spoiled kids usually end up in the tabloids expose's on drugs and drinking while the Saudi spoiled kids end up leading AK47 wielding posse's rather than an entourage hitting the clubs.
When the Saudi's caved in to extremist Islamic militants in 1979 they set the stage for the world wide jihad and with the trillions of dollars they have gotten through Western dependence on oil they established thousands of rich princes.
Those idle rich princes are funded by the Saudi royal family and just like the rich in the US the "trust fund" kids get up to all kinds of bad behavior but the mom's and dad's can't cut them off due to parental indulgence. The difference is the US spoiled kids usually end up in the tabloids expose's on drugs and drinking while the Saudi spoiled kids end up leading AK47 wielding posse's rather than an entourage hitting the clubs.
5
Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity denounced Mr. Kristof? Those are badges of honor, as far as I'm concerned--journalistic credentials of which to be proud.
3
It is time for president Obama to clarify the
nature of our relations with Saudi Arabia. There is such
an overwhelming evidence that Saudia Arabia is the
originator of extremism. It has not only punished
the voices of reform but lavishly financed madarssas
that teach extremism. We have spent enormous
resources on fighting extremist muslims but shied away
from tackling the source. Why so much silence? What do
we lose- orders for military hardware and access to surplus
petrodollars for our banks? Tell us the truth Mr. president.
nature of our relations with Saudi Arabia. There is such
an overwhelming evidence that Saudia Arabia is the
originator of extremism. It has not only punished
the voices of reform but lavishly financed madarssas
that teach extremism. We have spent enormous
resources on fighting extremist muslims but shied away
from tackling the source. Why so much silence? What do
we lose- orders for military hardware and access to surplus
petrodollars for our banks? Tell us the truth Mr. president.
4
And which GOP leaders decry Saudi Arabia as source of Muslim extremism?
2
Unfortunately, the barbarism and backwardness of Islamic states as reported and the complicity through silence of our government and others sets the stage to perpetuate what is worse about the state sanctioned punishments in the name of religious dictate. When will our dependence on their oil in opposition to our sense of morality and outrage say "enough!" Of course, never, as our imagined sovereign economies are dependent and intertwined with theirs.
2
I saw actual footage of the lashing, linked from The Friendly Atheist. There's a huge crowd (all men of course) and they are cheering. I don't see any "moderates", I see men following the letter of the Sharia law. It's this law itself, which urges barbarity.
He's got to go through this public torture 19 more times. And for all of you who are thinking "well, that's not so bad, it's not a bullwhip...", trust me, that cane is doing real damage!
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/01/10/someone-got-vide...
He's got to go through this public torture 19 more times. And for all of you who are thinking "well, that's not so bad, it's not a bullwhip...", trust me, that cane is doing real damage!
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/01/10/someone-got-vide...
8
The active Jihadists are a very small percentage of the 1.6 billion Muslims. The large majority are "fence sitters". Our military's policy is to win the hearts and minds of the fence sitters because we will never win a guerilla war if all 1.6 billion are openly supporting the Jihadists - unless of course we kill all 1.6 billion. As a member of a family of vets, I would like to see a little more sophistication from Fox News in dealing with the Muslim community. Their ignorant approach appeals to our low IQ voters and alienates the fence sitters, bolstering the Jihadists' recruiting and ends up killing our troops.
32
Well said Nick. A reminder that no matter how evolved we think we are, how little separates us from the precipice of a return to the Dark Ages.
1
Would someone explain what exactly it means to be "islamiaphobic" Is this an insult?
If being afraid of and condemning this Islamic culture, this culture that is so hostile to western liberal values, if this makes islamiphobic then count me in as one.!
If being afraid of and condemning this Islamic culture, this culture that is so hostile to western liberal values, if this makes islamiphobic then count me in as one.!
4
Islamaphobic means blaming all Muslims, and the Muslim religion itself, for the behavior of a very small number of Muslims. It would be like saying all Jews are greedy because some Jews are greedy. That's pretty much the operational definition for any kind of bigotry. The number of Muslims who have condemned this attack has already outnumbered the number of Muslims who performed the attack. To claim that the attackers, not the condemners, are the true Muslims is an example of the bigotry known as Islamaphobia.
When our champions of freedom and liberal ideas have their priorities completely messed up, we can have little hope anyone anywhere in the Islamic societies will do the right thing. Saudi Arabia may be punishing women for driving a car or a Badawi for saying the right things. But USA does not give a damn and goes on standing in shining armour behind the medievalist Kingdom and its benighted rulers. What can other countries do and what can their people do when government and people in USA and other great democracies find it expedient to stay on the right side of the King of Saudi Arabia. The goings on are hardly better in places where IS, Al Qaeda, Al Shabab, Boko Haram, and Taliban and others are posting great achievements in defence of Allah, Rasool, Islam, Quran, Hadith, and Shariat. Protesters like Badawi will be duly silenced while great liberal Kristof will limit himself to writing a column but refrain from suggesting that governments that can should at least speak against tyrants who rule all - repeat, all - Islamic societies. Badawi will duly collapse under the weekly lashes and shall be made an example of by the medievalist monarchy. Nobody will do anything about it because those who can will not. Mere ordinary people and eminent journalists can hardly make a difference to things except to write a little to salve their conscience. Having done that, one has proved oneself champion of freedom, democracy, and liberalism. V. C. Bhutani, Delhi, 15 Jan 2015, 2105 IST
1
Arguing is futile. Everybody knows Fox News is a comedy show. All this parsing in the media is useless. Moreover, each nation in the West has its own approach due to different customs and laws. The fact is that the old hypocrisy of pretending to be against Islamic extremism while calling Saudi Arabia part of a democratic coalition just makes us a laughingstock. We must take action.
2
I'm having a hard time reconciling your last piece with this one. With all the atrocities you laid bare in this Op-Ed perpetrated by Muslims in the name of their islamic faith, both by groups and by a government, it is hard to understand your previous argument that we shouldn't be critical of Islam in the wake of the Paris massacre.
I also liked your jab at Christianity regarding Leviticus. What I think you unintentionally, though I hope intentionally, did was illustrate the fact that there is a vast difference between Christians and Muslims as a whole. It seems the former has evolved with reason and morality to a much greater extent than the later.
I also liked your jab at Christianity regarding Leviticus. What I think you unintentionally, though I hope intentionally, did was illustrate the fact that there is a vast difference between Christians and Muslims as a whole. It seems the former has evolved with reason and morality to a much greater extent than the later.
1
Have you ever wondered why our editors discriminate against the brave and smart individuals who have something to say and know how to say it?
Well, there is a very good analogy that could decode this problem correctly.
Have you ever wondered why the big political campaign contributors are allowed by our elected officials to write the legislation that meets their desires and preferences?
Well, for the same reason that our editors let the big corporations using their pages for lavish advertisement campaigns dictate their editorial policies.
Any business is there to make the profits. Similarly, the politicians want to stay in power and the editors want to receive their monthly paychecks. The very moment the readers, viewers and listeners accepted to be bombarded by the endless ads to save a few bucks in their pockets they handed over their freedom and rights into the hands of corporate sponsors.
You bet that the Muslim world has the identical problems but they just cannot do anything about it, just like us...
Well, there is a very good analogy that could decode this problem correctly.
Have you ever wondered why the big political campaign contributors are allowed by our elected officials to write the legislation that meets their desires and preferences?
Well, for the same reason that our editors let the big corporations using their pages for lavish advertisement campaigns dictate their editorial policies.
Any business is there to make the profits. Similarly, the politicians want to stay in power and the editors want to receive their monthly paychecks. The very moment the readers, viewers and listeners accepted to be bombarded by the endless ads to save a few bucks in their pockets they handed over their freedom and rights into the hands of corporate sponsors.
You bet that the Muslim world has the identical problems but they just cannot do anything about it, just like us...
I have had a difficult time agreeing with Mr. Kristof lately, but I believe he is spot on with this column. The large Mosque in Dearborn, Michigan is full of great people who make up a vibrant "all American" community. We must support their right to harassment-free worship while encouraging them to separate themselves from the groups who are perverting religious doctrine to legitimize political power.
1
Nick you have pointed out some so called Muslim countries where Muslims are killing other Muslims; actually there are 27 different areas where this is happening. And yes it all goes back to the Saudis and their brand of Wahhabi Islam. The Salafis and the Wahhabis have indoctrinated many a millions main stream Sunni Muslims to their ideology, from Indonesia, Malaysia to the United States of America. NY Times had an article only yesterday re a Malaysian preacher in Syria (http://nyti.ms/1B3ySoj ).
Some of the blame actually comes back to our policy makers for their short sighted approach of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and our creation of the Jihadi culture in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Prior to this Kalashnikov culture Pakistan used to be a moderate country. Gen Zia and the Saudis along with the CIA and USAID created what we see in the whole world. Saudis used us to propagate their brand of extremist Islam; which was frowned upon by most Sunni Muslims especially in Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, India and Pakistan.
Most 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
Tom Friedman, Mustafa Akyol, Fareed Zakaria and others have also voiced their concerns re Saudis and their influence on the Jihadi movement in Islam. The big question is How do we put a dent on this movement by the Salafi/Wahhabi interpretation by supporting the other narrative of peaceful Islam. Iran may be our best hope to counter the Saudi Narrative.
Some of the blame actually comes back to our policy makers for their short sighted approach of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and our creation of the Jihadi culture in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Prior to this Kalashnikov culture Pakistan used to be a moderate country. Gen Zia and the Saudis along with the CIA and USAID created what we see in the whole world. Saudis used us to propagate their brand of extremist Islam; which was frowned upon by most Sunni Muslims especially in Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, India and Pakistan.
Most 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
Tom Friedman, Mustafa Akyol, Fareed Zakaria and others have also voiced their concerns re Saudis and their influence on the Jihadi movement in Islam. The big question is How do we put a dent on this movement by the Salafi/Wahhabi interpretation by supporting the other narrative of peaceful Islam. Iran may be our best hope to counter the Saudi Narrative.
2
U.S. involvement goes beyond supporting 'freedom fighters' in Afghanistan. The U.S. actually supported Saudi Arabia in exporting Wahhabism after the Iranian revolution.
1
There is one factor underlying all the unrest we are seeing in the world today. We are seeing an entire generation of young people, all over the world, who have nothing to do with their time, their energy, and the aspirations.
These young people need jobs. Imagine that we had followed our initial invasion of Afghanistan with an invasion of bulldozers and concrete trucks with which the Afghans could have built some real infrastructure for their country. Imagine a massive movement worldwide to build water and sewer systems and hospitals and schools. Young people could be learning skills and increasing their self esteem while improving the conditions for other people.
It would have to be less expensive than war and revolution and then the rebuilding.
Why can't we think a little bit outside the box?
These young people need jobs. Imagine that we had followed our initial invasion of Afghanistan with an invasion of bulldozers and concrete trucks with which the Afghans could have built some real infrastructure for their country. Imagine a massive movement worldwide to build water and sewer systems and hospitals and schools. Young people could be learning skills and increasing their self esteem while improving the conditions for other people.
It would have to be less expensive than war and revolution and then the rebuilding.
Why can't we think a little bit outside the box?
2
I think that we've become more sophisticated in our critical thinking of Islam. The "Radical" moniker is now in use and delineates the vast majority of the followers of Muhammad from the fundamentalists. The striking issue many of the more thoughtful observers include is however a blanket assumption that extremists exist in every religion. It is a correct idea and one that should raise a call from every corner of the globe. The question will remain long after all of us are dead and gone. That is how do we reduce and marginalize it, yet allow everyone the freedom to worship in their own way? Nothing is more basic than this principle.
As it now stands we have been taught one of the most serious lessons about our species: Faith will trump facts just about forever in some people or in a dedicated group. The idea of "Peace" suffers this reality forever it seems.
As it now stands we have been taught one of the most serious lessons about our species: Faith will trump facts just about forever in some people or in a dedicated group. The idea of "Peace" suffers this reality forever it seems.
Mr. Kristof is right, the Koran does not call for punishment of blasphemy. It calls for the killing of non-believers, but no additional punishment for those who also insult the "prophet."
"When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters." Sura 47:4
"When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters." Sura 47:4
1
And the Bible tells Jews to kill all Amalekites, men, women, and children, on sight, no questions asked, not even "wanna convert?" But the rabbis rapidly interpreted this metaphorically, with Amalek as the symbol of absolute evil, not actually embodied in any living human beings. All of us peoples of the books have good reason to find new understandings of our texts - not just Muslims.
18
This quote is specific instructions given just before a battle with the Pagan inhabitants of Mecca. It does NOT mean that a Muslim should do this to every non-Muslim he encounters. Nor does the original correct quote say "Strike off their heads" and it makes no mention of "a great slaughter". It says "strike at their necks", and then gives instructions to bind the combatant and hold him for ransom. Obviously, you can't ransom someone who has been killed, so the passage could not possibly mean that the Non-Muslim soldier in this battle should be killed. In fact, the most obvious interpretation (when seen in context) is that the Koran is saying you should only capture the combatants, and NOT kill them.
http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/329-yusuf-estes-correcting-quran-m...
http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/329-yusuf-estes-correcting-quran-m...
1
God would never direct anybody to kill the Amalekites.
In faith, there is no collective responsibility, just an individual one. God would never direct the killings of all the people that He created.
God commended us: ”Thou shall not kill” God would never contradict His orders.
Only overly zealot priests would dare to mix their own human words with the other God Commandments.
The Almighty never giver the orders that exclude each other. That’s the human trait and nature...
In faith, there is no collective responsibility, just an individual one. God would never direct the killings of all the people that He created.
God commended us: ”Thou shall not kill” God would never contradict His orders.
Only overly zealot priests would dare to mix their own human words with the other God Commandments.
The Almighty never giver the orders that exclude each other. That’s the human trait and nature...
1
"There is a difference between murdering cartoonists and flogging bloggers."
Not much difference, if any. The flogging may, in fact, be more successful at quashing speech. Flogging and imprisonment breaks spirits, worse than death to some.
Not much difference, if any. The flogging may, in fact, be more successful at quashing speech. Flogging and imprisonment breaks spirits, worse than death to some.
38
And 1000 lashes - 50 every Friday could kill him. I have no idea how hard he is being lashed, but that could be a slow death sentence. I doubt he'll have time for his wounds to heal.
1
Why on earth do we consider Saudi Arabia any kind of ally? Their laws and practices are as barbaric as any in the Middle East, and they have money that directly and indirectly sustains legions of pathological fanatics.
73
Simple answers: They have oil. They have money.
Oil.
Their imprisonment of women in their homes and in their garments makes them in my opinion the most barbaric of the barbarians
Why are we still doing business with Saudi Arabia? Can we cut our ties?
1
There needs to be mass marches for peace and tolerance LED BY MUSLIMS. People worldwide are really starting to HATE Muslims... and no amount of hand-wringing over the role of Western imperialism, oil addition, misguided wars, etc will be enough to excuse the ongoing slaughter and terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam. No more playing the victim, Muslims need to speak out en masse against these atrocities!
4
An "Islamic reformer" should be a mass, popular movement - bottom up! This requires education for the entire population! The problem in the Muslim world is that, due to social inequalities, the poor and the impoverished can't afford an education. Or they are kept - wilfully - by the elite away from learning, so that they can be manipulated.
please read: An "Islamic reformer" should come from the masses. This requires education for the entire population!
This is your most balanced column on this subject.
In the big picture (ignoring for the moment many regional differences and nuances) isn't the real problem not Islam per se but rather the inability of many of the Middle Eastern Islamic countries to move beyond conflating politics and religion? Societies in which the "King's religion" rules export the most violence because they invoke religious fervor to rile up their followers to commit violence. In past times Christian societies were just as cruel and violent, but the Judeo-Christian countries have (for the most part) moved beyond this because they are now secular and democratic societies in which religious belief is freely tolerated but has no role, or at least a minimal role, in government and politics. It is the toxic mix of religion and totalitarian government that leads to terrorism. Paradoxically, allowing the free exercise of religion tends to marginalize it as a political instrument. It's a bit of an aside to this specific discussion, but I hope that Israel is not going down this same toxic path as many of the Middle Eastern Islamic countries with Jewish fundamentalists gaining too much control over society, politics and government.
2
This is too benign a picture of the West. In the Irish Republic, the Catholic Church still dominates the education system, while many Catholics exert pressure to enact confessional laws. In the US six of the SCOTUS justices are Catholics, three are Jews; and Red States are regressing year by year to the medieval control of female reproductive physiology. The "Personhood" fight is not over, and school districts are under pressure to teach Creationism.
1
That's why I said "for the most part." Any attempts to impose religious views on others are reprehensible (although I'm not sure what your point about the SCOTUS justices is) but they are a long way from committing terrorist acts.
Islam is not only a religion but a way of life. But as in all religions who have had a checkered past and evolved to meet the modern word, Islam has somehow still remained an anachronistic way of thinking for its followers. In the Islamic countries such as Pakistan; Egypt and Saudi Arabia, their governments adhere to a strict following of its interpretation of the Quran. Any perceived slight or disrespect of the religion will be met with death or torture; within this context, it would be hard to find moderate Islamic followers who would speak out against this form of religious violence. France and the western world are facing a second crusade; a crusade that pits western values of free- speech, equality for women, education and free thought against Islamic ideals. The publication of the prophet Muhammad might incur another round of violence against France and the western world.... But it is the price one must sacrifice to become zealots of western ideals against non-western ideals of the Middle East!
13
What is the problem with an islamic law or shariah? The crux is that when shariah becomes the law of the land, there is no separation of church and state, in this case, the church (or mosque) IS the state, and from that all laws governing rights, rape, marriage, free speech, blasphemy are constrained by the people running that religion.
You cannot claim to be a supporter of the basic tenets of liberty and freedom of expression and accept shariah. They are polar opposites. Where countries are willing to consider using shariah as the law of the state, all people who espouse freedom of expression must speak out and point out this inconsistency. This is not a tolerance issue, it is a basic recognition of a basic right for anyone who truly believes in the words of Voltaire.
You cannot claim to be a supporter of the basic tenets of liberty and freedom of expression and accept shariah. They are polar opposites. Where countries are willing to consider using shariah as the law of the state, all people who espouse freedom of expression must speak out and point out this inconsistency. This is not a tolerance issue, it is a basic recognition of a basic right for anyone who truly believes in the words of Voltaire.
12
This is an old story, people using violence to control expression of ideas by others. Fortunately, so-called Christian leaders no longer burn their people at the stake after ripping their bodies apart on the rack. This is painful to watch, but bombing and killing in return, although politic, is no answer.
1
"Maybe if these “journalists” left their bubble and actually talked to more Muslims, they wouldn’t spew nonsense". It's you Mr. Kristof, who is a clueless journalist. My family has lived in a Muslim country. Discrimination against non-Muslims is not only wide spread it is codified into law prohibiting expression of other religions and employment law, for example. May I suggest you move to Jakarta and live there for three years and then write another column.
14
Some of these comments leave me thinking there has been some sort of mistake and people are responding to some article other than the one I read. I went back and re-read the story and I'm still amazed and puzzled as what people "take away" from their readings.
What does the injustice suffered by non-muslims have to do with the point being made here? The main thrust of this is that violence is not "prescribed" in the Koran as an appropriate response to blasphemy (real or perceived) and the royal family is looking the other way while fundamentalists behave like thugs with impunity.
What does the injustice suffered by non-muslims have to do with the point being made here? The main thrust of this is that violence is not "prescribed" in the Koran as an appropriate response to blasphemy (real or perceived) and the royal family is looking the other way while fundamentalists behave like thugs with impunity.
2
Seriously, did you read his piece? He gives similar examples of discrimination and is not suggesting that the kind of discrimination you describe does not exist. Even the title of his piece is about a moderate reformer being flogged.
All religions are violent and oppressive. The basic premise of every religion, do as you are told and you will receive the gift of heaven, do not as you are told and you will receive the punishment of eternal damnation.
All religions are exclusive. We are the one true path to salvation, follow the others and eternal damnation awaits.
Should there be any wonder that religion is the cause (or the excuse used) for nearly all the wars and violence throughout the history of mankind.
All religions are exclusive. We are the one true path to salvation, follow the others and eternal damnation awaits.
Should there be any wonder that religion is the cause (or the excuse used) for nearly all the wars and violence throughout the history of mankind.
14
Kristoff is a journalist with a strong sense of the world coommunity, and Amnsety International probably has worked for the same ends, defending freedom of expression and opposing repressive measures against writers and protestors.The trillions shipped to the oil states and our oil billionaires in Europe and No. America help make theocracies bullet-proof, strengthen clan power-bases, and keep the people relatively quiet, relatively uneducated. The Muslim world is, as Kristoff says, also ours, and we must as W.Hugh Auden oce wrote "Love one another or die." And what is love but forgiveness, humility, and acceptance? Neither the clan and "stan powers nor the terrorists want that message heard.
9
" Yet since then Saudi elites have retreated, sipping whiskey at private parties while deferring publicly to the traditionalists. To be blunt, Saudi Arabia legitimizes Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance. "
Nicholas Kristof touches a fundamental point to understand the root of Islamic fundamentalism and jihadism. True, there is a war going on in the Islamic world, particularly in the Middle East and Asia.
However, it is not religious but rather political-social class struggle between a dominant 1% family clans and 99% disfranchised poor. The so called Arab Spring revolution was an attempt of change that status quo.
Saudi Arabia is a good case study. The Saudi Royal family managed to stay in power due to oil and military support from Washington DC. Now, the US is becoming independent from imported Saudi oil and no longer keen to get into Middle East ground wars.
The Royal family feels alone and more vulnerable than ever. As a result, more Saudi money will flow to radical jihadist groups. Bribery is the price to be paid for the Royal family to continue in power, enjoying European vacations and drinking whisky discretely.
Nicholas Kristof touches a fundamental point to understand the root of Islamic fundamentalism and jihadism. True, there is a war going on in the Islamic world, particularly in the Middle East and Asia.
However, it is not religious but rather political-social class struggle between a dominant 1% family clans and 99% disfranchised poor. The so called Arab Spring revolution was an attempt of change that status quo.
Saudi Arabia is a good case study. The Saudi Royal family managed to stay in power due to oil and military support from Washington DC. Now, the US is becoming independent from imported Saudi oil and no longer keen to get into Middle East ground wars.
The Royal family feels alone and more vulnerable than ever. As a result, more Saudi money will flow to radical jihadist groups. Bribery is the price to be paid for the Royal family to continue in power, enjoying European vacations and drinking whisky discretely.
19
Ironically, we seem driven to support the paper Caesars of this world. When will we really learn?
When are you going to call for supporting the moderates in the Jewish, Christian, Hindu and Buddhists world?
Instead of supporting the extremist Zionist Jewish supremacist colonial apartheid Jim Crow state sponsor of terrorism with nuclear weapons.
Instead of supporting the extremist Catholic and Protestant European and American ethnic sectarian supremacist crusader inquisitor enslaving colonizing war mongering genocidal hypocrites who give money and arms to Muslim tyrants.
Instead of supporting the extremist Indian Hindu supremacist caste driven nuclear power.
Instead of supporting the extremist Punjabi Muslim supremacist nuclear Pakistan and a Bengali Muslim supremacist Bangladesh.
Instead of supporting Shinto/ Daoist/ Buddhists ethnic supremacy in Japan, China, Thailand and Sri Lanka.
Or the extremist Sunni Muslim Arab secular military theocratic royal tyrants who deny their citizens divine natural rights birthing extremism and frustration.
France believes in free speech and free press and liberty for white French Catholics. France does not have room for anyone else from it's former colonies. Dreyfus and Petain and Vichy and Barbie and Le Pen are French icons. France has criminally arrested Frenchmen for "hate" speech.
Kurds and Pashtuns and Palestinians and Tamils and Sikhs and African Americans suffer from not being recognized as being members of the one biological evolutionary DNA human race born in East Africa about 180-200 thousand years ago.
Instead of supporting the extremist Zionist Jewish supremacist colonial apartheid Jim Crow state sponsor of terrorism with nuclear weapons.
Instead of supporting the extremist Catholic and Protestant European and American ethnic sectarian supremacist crusader inquisitor enslaving colonizing war mongering genocidal hypocrites who give money and arms to Muslim tyrants.
Instead of supporting the extremist Indian Hindu supremacist caste driven nuclear power.
Instead of supporting the extremist Punjabi Muslim supremacist nuclear Pakistan and a Bengali Muslim supremacist Bangladesh.
Instead of supporting Shinto/ Daoist/ Buddhists ethnic supremacy in Japan, China, Thailand and Sri Lanka.
Or the extremist Sunni Muslim Arab secular military theocratic royal tyrants who deny their citizens divine natural rights birthing extremism and frustration.
France believes in free speech and free press and liberty for white French Catholics. France does not have room for anyone else from it's former colonies. Dreyfus and Petain and Vichy and Barbie and Le Pen are French icons. France has criminally arrested Frenchmen for "hate" speech.
Kurds and Pashtuns and Palestinians and Tamils and Sikhs and African Americans suffer from not being recognized as being members of the one biological evolutionary DNA human race born in East Africa about 180-200 thousand years ago.
2
Maybe they should act like it?
The Bill O'Reillys and Sean Hannitys of the world live to divide people and pit them against each other. Their mission is to stoke outrage and keep their audiences agitated.
9
Why gibber on about what the Koran says? This killing has nothing to do with what is holy or sacred. It is to do with the lust for power by Islamic nutters who use any excuse to get their aim. And as usual the West indulges itself in self analysis, asking itself in so many blogs, discussions etc What are we doing wrong?
YOU ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG so stop playing into the hands of those who commit profanities against god in the name of their prophet and who's only motive is hate for the west, democracy and freedom of will!!
Remember, their Prophet is not God, even though they profess such. But as such, are they not idolaters?
YOU ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG so stop playing into the hands of those who commit profanities against god in the name of their prophet and who's only motive is hate for the west, democracy and freedom of will!!
Remember, their Prophet is not God, even though they profess such. But as such, are they not idolaters?
6
While it is true that blasphemy is a captial crime within Judaism, Mr. Kristoff apparently tries to make it seem as though Judaism is a blood-thirsty religion. Nothing could be farther from the truth. First, blasphemy was very narrowly defined: cursing God using God's own person Name. Second, it was actually almost impossible to convict a defendant of any crime under Jewish law, if for no other reason than two witnesses must have heard the defendant utter the blasphemy and, before he uttered the blasphemy, they must first had to have warned him not to so utter the Name. Third, in all capital cases, the witneses were charged by the judges to not engage in conjuecture or hearsay, giving rise to a presumption of innocence. http://www.jesusandtheprofessor.com/2010/09/trial-of-jesus-charging-the-.... This is why the Talmud teaches, "a Sanhedrin that carries out a death sentence even once in seven years will go down in history as bloodthirsty" (to which one rabbi remarked, "seventy years").
9
Wow... the comments are getting pretty defensive. To me Mr. Kristoff simply appears to be pointing out that Christianity and Judaism have (for the most part) arrived at that place where they can not take explain away the blood-thirsty words of their scriptures. It took a long time. the hope is that Muslims (for the most part) will reach that point soon.
1
If we counter ignorance in the Muslim world with ignorance in the western world, everybody loses.
Communism eventually lost its authority, when the masses it oppressed rose collectively (in a great irony) against a diktat imposed by fear. Religious dogmas enforced by fear also eventually stir the faithful to seek a reformation – the western world underwent this catharsis almost a half millennium ago. In fact, the discovery of this nation, one could argue was a result of the faithful fleeing Europe to form a more perfect union?
In a metaphorical sense, the Islamic Middle East appears to be undergoing its Middle Ages period. So it would help if an already reformed western world eased that transition by countering ignorance with knowledge that enlightens faithful Muslims as opposed to taking actions that make them distrust us even more.
Communism eventually lost its authority, when the masses it oppressed rose collectively (in a great irony) against a diktat imposed by fear. Religious dogmas enforced by fear also eventually stir the faithful to seek a reformation – the western world underwent this catharsis almost a half millennium ago. In fact, the discovery of this nation, one could argue was a result of the faithful fleeing Europe to form a more perfect union?
In a metaphorical sense, the Islamic Middle East appears to be undergoing its Middle Ages period. So it would help if an already reformed western world eased that transition by countering ignorance with knowledge that enlightens faithful Muslims as opposed to taking actions that make them distrust us even more.
3
Jack, if you don't know this by now you should. You cannot save people from themselves. Doing so interferes with the process. You can't tell me they are not enough informed Muslims about the need to reform their faith. Until they find the courage and resolve within themselves, there is nothing we can do about it except encourage the brave ones and praise them for doing it.
1
Money Talks always, just wondering if the Saudi Prince still doing business with Robert Murdoch, the champion of Fox Propaganda News. Well done Nicholas Kristof, a sound of sanity and wisdom always.
1
Fox is banned in the Kingdom. Has been for years.
Not sure why everyone is praising this column. For many years the Saudis have been acting against our interests while supplying us with oil, and promoting militant and thought-ending versions of their religion all over the Muslim world. (From that vantage point, it makes Iran look like our friend).
The column would be worth praising if Nick offered some intelligent next steps vis a vis our 'ally'.
The column would be worth praising if Nick offered some intelligent next steps vis a vis our 'ally'.
12
I agree with you about Saudis. Lets place a $50.00 a barrel tariff on their oil. We have enough of our own.
1
I have an idea. Let's call it "an eye for an eye." Person A satirizes an image important to Person B. Person B wreaks vengeance by satirizing an image important to Person A. Oh ... I guess that's justice, forget the whole thing.
1
Islam is a state religion in several states, including some states that sponsor terrorism. That puts a heavy burden on any Muslim person who speaks out or otherwise works for "moderation". which we see can quickly result in arrest, imprisonment, torture, and death, or just summary killing if you happen to live in an ISIS controlled part of the Middle East. I cannot expect Muslims from other parts of the world to simply speak out, since extraordinary (and dangerous) political action is what is required. And free speech is not valued in the social and political milieu of the Middle East. When NK travels in Saudi Arabia or Iran, does he exercise free speech? I do not mean to suggest that all Muslims are responsible for this historical fact. I feel horrified for their fate in regime's of such brutal intolerance and control.
8
Kristof is still hunting for that illusive big-foot, moderate Islam. To save you a lot of time and energy, I can help you by telling you the truth; there is no Islam that is moderate. What you see is what you get. Any religion that has as a central tenet the death of non-adherents can never be moderate. That is the very definition of radical. Another article in this paper today had this statement, calling for more "tolerance" of Muslims:
“The Muslims are the first victims of fanaticism, extremism, and intolerance,” he said.
Obviously, this was a typo that the editors did not catch. It should have read, "The Muslims are the first TO COMMIT fanaticism, extremism, and intolerance."
Ironically, if the Muslims are suffering anything, what is happening is a very Christian principle: "Do unto others as you would do unto yourself."
“The Muslims are the first victims of fanaticism, extremism, and intolerance,” he said.
Obviously, this was a typo that the editors did not catch. It should have read, "The Muslims are the first TO COMMIT fanaticism, extremism, and intolerance."
Ironically, if the Muslims are suffering anything, what is happening is a very Christian principle: "Do unto others as you would do unto yourself."
20
I think your point missed the slaughter of Muslims in Christian Serbia and that. the Golden Rule is included in the Koran and most other religions
1
Excellent points Mr. Kristof. We know 15 Saudis were among the 9/11 perps. We know that Saudi royals with their friends like the bin Laudens are business partners with the Bush family. We further know, as you point out, that the Saudi state promotes an educational philosophy, Wahhabism, that teaches hatred for all things western. The blame for what happened in Paris may partially be laid at the feet of Saudi royals. The government of this country aids and abets the Saudi state. Therefore the US government aids those who incubate terrorism. Obama going to Paris is a little like inviting the head of a crime family to the funeral of one of their victims. By the way, this poor, brave man Raif, is being slowly tortured to death by our dear friends the Saudi's. Make no mistake about that.
25
Reform is in the eye of the beholder. You and I may think he is making good suggestions and is suggesting reforms. Those in Power in Saudia Arabia, and truth be told most of the population, think he is insulting their beliefs and such insults should be punished.
3
Somehow the reality of the Saud family, and of the desert gifted to them and named for them, has been kept from the American people. I feel, however, that the reference to Hannity, O'Reilly and the Weekly Standard (a weak standard, indeed) points to something more acute here at home.
If the Right-wing propaganda machine thought that demonizing opponents (Gingrich's words) or nasty bitterness (Norquist's words) were helpful as homeopathic medicine, they should know, and Fox must learn, that such "medicine" is fatal in large doses.
The dying patient is American democracy. Dr. Death comes in various forms, but looks a lot, from time to time, like Murdoch, or one of other of the Kochs. Hannity and O'Reilly are unspeakable in their mindless refusal so see what it is they serve.
If the Right-wing propaganda machine thought that demonizing opponents (Gingrich's words) or nasty bitterness (Norquist's words) were helpful as homeopathic medicine, they should know, and Fox must learn, that such "medicine" is fatal in large doses.
The dying patient is American democracy. Dr. Death comes in various forms, but looks a lot, from time to time, like Murdoch, or one of other of the Kochs. Hannity and O'Reilly are unspeakable in their mindless refusal so see what it is they serve.
23
The truly revolting thing is that they do know what they serve and are quite happy to do so for the appropriate amount of silver.
1
So are we to assume that demonizing opponents and "nasty bitterness" are only tactics practiced by the right? The failure of partisans to examine their own role in the bitter political divide is why America is dying. Both sides are guilty. Your and your fellow partisans' insistence on blaming only one side is one of the primary reasons these ploys continue.
"Republicans have been hounding President Obama for not sending a top official to Paris. They’re right." Seriously, Mr Kristof, you don't mean that? You know as well as everybody else that had Mr Obama sent such an official, Republicans would have hounded him for THAT. Believe me, they would have found an argument. In their eyes, Mr Obama can do nothing right.
34
Mr. Holder was in Paris during the march on Sunday. He elected not to attend it. The lack of American presence was a considered decision, not an oversight.
The role of the opposition is to voice concern when they feel a government makes mistakes. Even if some in the GOP feel Mr. Obama can do noting right, that does not mean this particular criticism is wrong. The question Mr. Jakobsen is what do you think the Obama administration should have done regarding the march?
The role of the opposition is to voice concern when they feel a government makes mistakes. Even if some in the GOP feel Mr. Obama can do noting right, that does not mean this particular criticism is wrong. The question Mr. Jakobsen is what do you think the Obama administration should have done regarding the march?
Kristof is correctly taking Obama to task for not going or sending someone high level to the demonstration. You can't judge Obama's actions by what the Republican reaction would be - you're right, they will criticize absolutely everything he does - does that mean he should stop washing his hands after he uses the bathroom? I'm an Obama supporter and absent any influence from how Republicans see him can (and do) admit that this particular action was a mistake.
Mr Obama is the first one to admit any lapse. he is the only adult in the room.
1
Please stop defending religious "moderates". It only serves to perpetuate the problem.
Religious adherents, of any religion, are apologists for a delusional notion that there are magical gods whose wills must be served.
Religious fundamentalists simply do the best job of serving those gods.
While political correctness makes for polite conversation, it will do nothing to stop the spread of horrendous acts in the name of religious piety.
Religious adherents, of any religion, are apologists for a delusional notion that there are magical gods whose wills must be served.
Religious fundamentalists simply do the best job of serving those gods.
While political correctness makes for polite conversation, it will do nothing to stop the spread of horrendous acts in the name of religious piety.
21
Religion is a fact of life, and has been since the earliest days of H. sapiens. I don't doubt that H. habilis and H. erectus in turn experienced fear of thunder and of wild beasts. I suspect that they also paused, once in a while, in awe at a sunset. Such fear and awe are the bases of religious feelings, and some long ago learned to manipulate them for their own benefit. They've managed to convince a lot of people, for example, that only their religion provides an acceptable basis for ethics and morals.
If it were possible to delete religion from humanity, what might we put in its place? Few people are equipped to go it alone. They need the community, the assurance of support, the ritual etc.
If it were possible to delete religion from humanity, what might we put in its place? Few people are equipped to go it alone. They need the community, the assurance of support, the ritual etc.
1
sharia is the scaffolding of this new chapter in the history of religiously based terrorism (see the inquisition, crusades, etc. for others)...it is, like most institutional exploitations of the faithful, the engine of a controlling force that has absolutely nothing to do with the spiritual life of any worshiper of any god...stop the blather and change the infamous thing!
4
Amongst the so called three great religions, there has always been a strange affair between belief and brutality. All three - Jewish, Christian and Moslem - once sat at the table of cruelty. It was part of the ancient culture as much as it was part of the faith. The first two have managed to move past religiously sanctioned sadism, while some adherents of the latter have not.
1000 lashes; when twenty delivered with fervency can kill? Oh, that's right, he's on the fifty a week plan.
But then there is America, so quickly becoming a corptocracy that we will soon feel lashes of another form. As government is shrunk and services withdrawn and the private sector takes over everyday life, no election will free us from the numbing cold of banks that fail and use other peoples money to bail themselves out of their funding folly. So, which lash would you like?
1000 lashes; when twenty delivered with fervency can kill? Oh, that's right, he's on the fifty a week plan.
But then there is America, so quickly becoming a corptocracy that we will soon feel lashes of another form. As government is shrunk and services withdrawn and the private sector takes over everyday life, no election will free us from the numbing cold of banks that fail and use other peoples money to bail themselves out of their funding folly. So, which lash would you like?
4
The theological justification for both blasphemy and for its being a capital crime is found in the hadiths (as Kristoff must know) and not in the Qur'an. Along with the sutras, these three form what we would call Islamic scripture. The somewhat gratuitous reference to Leviticus, though unexplored, provides an important insight. There are at least two reasons why the US no longer has blasphemy laws. First is the separation of church and state. Second, both Jewish and Christian theologians have long since re-interpreted that verse so that it has no current societal application.
Putting aside both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for the moment, not only have we seen no fatwa denouncing and prohibiting future murderous attacks on "blasphemers" or the specific targeting of Jews anywhere in the world from any respected and recognized Islamic authority, but instead we see quite the opposite: more warnings that such images offend Islamic sanctities and could be cause for future "uncontrollable" retaliation and, to the extent Jews are mentioned, they are blamed for the murders in Paris.
So, while Kristoff chooses to focus on the extreme (and extremely important) case of Saudi Arabia - using the punishment being meted out to a fellow journalist (apparently the recent beheading of a street magician who charmed kids with his sleight of hand and was tried and executed as a sorcerer failed to capture his imagination) - the problem Islam must face up to in the 21st century goes much deeper.
Putting aside both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for the moment, not only have we seen no fatwa denouncing and prohibiting future murderous attacks on "blasphemers" or the specific targeting of Jews anywhere in the world from any respected and recognized Islamic authority, but instead we see quite the opposite: more warnings that such images offend Islamic sanctities and could be cause for future "uncontrollable" retaliation and, to the extent Jews are mentioned, they are blamed for the murders in Paris.
So, while Kristoff chooses to focus on the extreme (and extremely important) case of Saudi Arabia - using the punishment being meted out to a fellow journalist (apparently the recent beheading of a street magician who charmed kids with his sleight of hand and was tried and executed as a sorcerer failed to capture his imagination) - the problem Islam must face up to in the 21st century goes much deeper.
12
Most of the extremism in the Islamic world emanates from Saudi Arabia. Yet the US stands by it regardless of its actions. This lashing should be pursued through the ICC and Saudi Arabia should be coerced to take its place in the modern world. We have so much leverage there, why don't we use it.
I've read Raif Badawi's writings and as a muslim, see nothing but progressive thinking in it. what's wrong with this picture?
I've read Raif Badawi's writings and as a muslim, see nothing but progressive thinking in it. what's wrong with this picture?
130
Why is it the responsibility of the Unitied States to expend blood and treasure fighting the Frankenstein monster the House of Saud and Iran created? I might have some sympathy for direct US military action in the country when I see the favored sons of Saudi Arabia giving up their lives to combat ISIS and other radical Islamic elements in the region.
not a question of blood and treasure. Simply political action. Why do we stand by when its SA, but not when its China or NK?
1
Reading the list of atrocities in the first two paragraphs of this column should make everyone fear the religion that inspires millions of adherents to do this stuff in its name. To undermine Jihadism, the key is to understand that much of its appeal among Muslims is because it resonates as "authentically" Islamic. It is a "back to the roots" movement that draws on the Jihadi examples of Muhammed himself and attempts to discredit moderate forms of Islam as corrupted and Westernized. Until we acknowledge this and somehow get Muslim authorities everywhere to not just denounce specific terrorist acts but to denounce the doctrine of Jihad and similar political ideas inherent in Islam as authentically Islamic, then we will never stop Jihadi recruiting. Violent Jihad must become as un-Islamic to Muslims as Shabbat on Wednesday would ring as un-Jewish for Jews.
59
I do not agree with the repetitive comments on not blaming all Muslims for the terrorists. Not because it is wrong but because it keeps us from taking actions we must to stop this scourge. The rulers of Saudi Arabia are as conservative as they are because their "subjects" want it that way. Pakistan is as conservative as they are because their citizens vote them in. We need to stop practicing reality based relations with these countries and start practicing morality based politics. We need to make clear that we will not support or even have diplomatic relations with countries that support this fanaticism (directly or indirectly). We should impose sanctions, as we have done on Iran and Russia, to show them we will not tolerate the terrorism their policies support. Let them do what they want in their own countries, at least until their own citizens do something to stop them.
51
There seems to be an inconsistency in this piece. It seems to state that the majority of Muslims are fair minded individuals, but then it shows examples of whole Muslim states perpetrating state-sponsored injustices in the name of Islam. All of a sudden the moderate fair-minded folks are reduced to one courageous guy underneath a whip.
13
If the Saudis were helping to satisfay our oil addiction the US would treat them the way they treat any other terrorism funding backwards country: shun them, decry their teatment of women and minorities and help support their dissidents. But of course that will not happen.
3
Saudi oil is imported to the U.S. Saudi oil is mostly used in Europe. The U.S. is now the world's largest oil producer.
For the Muslim world, nothing is above the Koran.
If nothing is above the Koran, the Islam cannot be above the Koran either.
The Islam CANNOT consist of the Koran and Hadiths or their implementation through the mosques and clergy.
It means we can only talk about two different sets of rules, the Koran and the Islam. In this case, the Islam would consist solely of the Hadiths, the mosques and the preachers.
The term “Islamic militants” would unfortunately match the current conditions on the ground under this classification but in this case those militants would be completely detached from the Almighty, the Koran, Prophet Mohammed and true faith.
If those militants weren’t connected to the faith, then those militants should simply be called what they truly are – the militants.
If the Koran strictly and unequivocally prohibits the killings of the innocent people, then the militias engaged in those practices cannot and should not be considered to have any relationship to true faith.
The term “Islamic militants” is oxymoron. If you are faithful, you cannot be militant. If you are militant, you cannot be faithful. If you are fighting against your first neighbors for almost 14 centuries, then you are not the believer and you don’t understand the Koranic verses...
If nothing is above the Koran, the Islam cannot be above the Koran either.
The Islam CANNOT consist of the Koran and Hadiths or their implementation through the mosques and clergy.
It means we can only talk about two different sets of rules, the Koran and the Islam. In this case, the Islam would consist solely of the Hadiths, the mosques and the preachers.
The term “Islamic militants” would unfortunately match the current conditions on the ground under this classification but in this case those militants would be completely detached from the Almighty, the Koran, Prophet Mohammed and true faith.
If those militants weren’t connected to the faith, then those militants should simply be called what they truly are – the militants.
If the Koran strictly and unequivocally prohibits the killings of the innocent people, then the militias engaged in those practices cannot and should not be considered to have any relationship to true faith.
The term “Islamic militants” is oxymoron. If you are faithful, you cannot be militant. If you are militant, you cannot be faithful. If you are fighting against your first neighbors for almost 14 centuries, then you are not the believer and you don’t understand the Koranic verses...
1
Where your error lies is in what the Koran and Islam define as "innocent" people. Non-believers of any stripe are not innocent, and the Book of Jihad enjoins muslims to bring non-believers to Islam or to destroy them. What most of us define as innocence is quite different from what a fully devout muslim defines as innocent. Even children of non-believers cannot be considered innocent.
HopeE
Do you have any specific verse from the Koran to support your personal statements regarding "Non-believers of any stripe are not innocent" or "Even children of non-believers cannot be considered innocent"
To claim something like that there should be an identical verse in the Koran...
What chapter and what verse are you referring to?
Do you have any specific verse from the Koran to support your personal statements regarding "Non-believers of any stripe are not innocent" or "Even children of non-believers cannot be considered innocent"
To claim something like that there should be an identical verse in the Koran...
What chapter and what verse are you referring to?
I still cringe remembering George W Bush and a Saudi prince strolling hand in hand and Barack Obama's reverential half bow before the Saudi king.
6
Much more important were the machinations of Bandar Bush. (Prince Bandar).
Actually, I know Birmingham fairly well, and it's hardly "entirely Muslim", although the English of the kids in the street might as well be Arabic for its comprehensibility.
Actually, I'm not surprised that moderates have appeared in the Arab, indeed, the Muslim, world. But from their general fate, such as Badawi's, we can assess the likelihood that our support of them will be effective -- not high.
The source of the problem remains oil, as it always has been. So long as much of the world remains dependent on Arab oil, there will be the means to foment trouble. We need to accelerate both fracking and development of alternative energy sources. It's likely that before many more decades are out that part of the world will lose its ability to cause the rest of the world so much heartache through lack of the ability to fund terrorism.
Actually, I'm not surprised that moderates have appeared in the Arab, indeed, the Muslim, world. But from their general fate, such as Badawi's, we can assess the likelihood that our support of them will be effective -- not high.
The source of the problem remains oil, as it always has been. So long as much of the world remains dependent on Arab oil, there will be the means to foment trouble. We need to accelerate both fracking and development of alternative energy sources. It's likely that before many more decades are out that part of the world will lose its ability to cause the rest of the world so much heartache through lack of the ability to fund terrorism.
3
Saudi Arabia undoubtedly is the epicentre of extremism as the ruling class does not open the window of the world to its public. The ruling elites do so not because they love Islam but because it fits into their scheme of things to stick to power by flogging and humiliating the masses in the name of Islam. No country in the world is as discriminatory to its public or immigrants as Saudi Arabia. But nothing will serve in exposing as Kingdom is the darling of America. To be critical, America legitimises the Salafist regime whatever is pernicious to liberal and democratic values.
10
Why do we maintain diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia, the main sponsor of Islamic terrorism, both directly and through the hate-filled schools they fund across the Muslim world?
5
"Hmm. When Bill O’Reilly apologizes for I.R.A. bombings and the genocide by Christian Serbs, then Muslims will no doubt apologize for Paris." That is a false analogy. Christian Serbs and Irish Catholics have not driven airplanes into skyscrapers, or murdered people worldwide in the name of their faith. Arab leadership has a moral code which is an anathema to the civilized world. It may be that ordinary Muslims, who don't sip whiskey in private bars in Riyadh, do not agree with their leadership, and if that is the case, it is time for them to make their views known. So far, the public demonstrations of which I am aware have backed the Paris terrorists. I don't agree with Fox News' false journalism, but I think it is time to stop apologizing for murderers.
10
These extremists are not religious and know nothing
about Islam. I can't believe you will consider Cherif and
Said Kouachi, who murdered the cartonnists, as
well versed in Islamic ideology. They were drifters
who could have gone in any direction. In America
they would have joined the drug gangs and murdered few
other gang members. In France they got radicalized
by an extremist in the prison who convinced them that
fighting for the religion will make their life meaningful.
There is absolutely no evidence they studied the religion.
It is totally wrong to assume that they got the idea of
murdering the cartoonists after reading Quran.
Extremists are using (abusing) the religion to justify
their acts and attract money and recruits like USA
uses "spreading democracy" to invade other countries
and 19th century colonialists used " bringing Christian civilization" to the savages in Africa and India, South America.
It makes the violence or war more palatable.
about Islam. I can't believe you will consider Cherif and
Said Kouachi, who murdered the cartonnists, as
well versed in Islamic ideology. They were drifters
who could have gone in any direction. In America
they would have joined the drug gangs and murdered few
other gang members. In France they got radicalized
by an extremist in the prison who convinced them that
fighting for the religion will make their life meaningful.
There is absolutely no evidence they studied the religion.
It is totally wrong to assume that they got the idea of
murdering the cartoonists after reading Quran.
Extremists are using (abusing) the religion to justify
their acts and attract money and recruits like USA
uses "spreading democracy" to invade other countries
and 19th century colonialists used " bringing Christian civilization" to the savages in Africa and India, South America.
It makes the violence or war more palatable.
14
So this is a false analogy because murders performed by airplanes are more morally reprehensible than murders performed without airplanes? And murdering people in your own country is morally superior to murdering people abroad? Why is that exactly?
Sure, just like "negotiations" with Adolf Hitler brought world peace.
Sorry, what you're selling, I'm not buying.
It seems a cleric in Saudi Arabia issued a "fatwah" condemning the "Building of Snow Men" as violating the rules of the Koran. Not a word about gunning down journalists, kidnapping and raping young women in Africa, DAESH beheadings, on and on and on.
Negotiating with power hungry, psychopathic killers, like Mr. Hitler and his blood drenched henchmen, is useless. Unfortunately, it seems Machiavelli was correct; violence can only be countered with violence.
The time for the "moderates", if they really have any sway at all, in Islam is well past; too many have died because they are "not of the faith" or insulted Islam.
It's time to realize that it has nothing to do with any sort of "god" but has to do with very earthly "power" and the folks at DAESH seem hell bent on spreading their power world wide.
Let Saudi Arabia do something meaningful like send an ambassador to Israel and then, perhaps, the rest of the civilized world will recognize them as something more than a giant, Islamic gas station.
For, in the final analysis, isn't "oil" what it's all about?
Sorry, what you're selling, I'm not buying.
It seems a cleric in Saudi Arabia issued a "fatwah" condemning the "Building of Snow Men" as violating the rules of the Koran. Not a word about gunning down journalists, kidnapping and raping young women in Africa, DAESH beheadings, on and on and on.
Negotiating with power hungry, psychopathic killers, like Mr. Hitler and his blood drenched henchmen, is useless. Unfortunately, it seems Machiavelli was correct; violence can only be countered with violence.
The time for the "moderates", if they really have any sway at all, in Islam is well past; too many have died because they are "not of the faith" or insulted Islam.
It's time to realize that it has nothing to do with any sort of "god" but has to do with very earthly "power" and the folks at DAESH seem hell bent on spreading their power world wide.
Let Saudi Arabia do something meaningful like send an ambassador to Israel and then, perhaps, the rest of the civilized world will recognize them as something more than a giant, Islamic gas station.
For, in the final analysis, isn't "oil" what it's all about?
15
It seems to me we only focus on a minority and totally ignore the majority. New papers, broadcast news outlets and other news services should put the majority views in the main headline and the other violent minority in the middle of the page.
2
OK, how do we fix this? Our media and leaders are expert at identifying problems. Some are highly skilled at locating a scapegoat. No one it seems has any answers. Our country is full of very smart people. Many of whom are from the countries in peril. They understand the problem first hand. We on the other hand are buried with restated and rehashed problems with no one recommending any solution.
How about it? Lefts come up with some workable solutions. As a manager I ask my teams to identify problems and to let me know immediately when they surface. I insist that before they present them to me, they must have at least two viable solutions. No solutions - you are a whiner. We are a country of whiners.
Here's my fix. Pull every American out of the Middle East - except for Israel they deserve our support; after all we created them. Bring these people home and start the restoration of America. There is plenty of work here and the recovery / redirection of all this foreign aid and war money could be better used to fix our country. If you are here on a student visa you had better be in school. If you're visiting, your vacation is over. Trouble makers will be deported!
Do you have a better idea? Let your representatives know. They need to hear it. If they don't fix our problems, we need to elect people that will.
How about it? Lefts come up with some workable solutions. As a manager I ask my teams to identify problems and to let me know immediately when they surface. I insist that before they present them to me, they must have at least two viable solutions. No solutions - you are a whiner. We are a country of whiners.
Here's my fix. Pull every American out of the Middle East - except for Israel they deserve our support; after all we created them. Bring these people home and start the restoration of America. There is plenty of work here and the recovery / redirection of all this foreign aid and war money could be better used to fix our country. If you are here on a student visa you had better be in school. If you're visiting, your vacation is over. Trouble makers will be deported!
Do you have a better idea? Let your representatives know. They need to hear it. If they don't fix our problems, we need to elect people that will.
3
"If they don't fix our problems, we need to elect people that will." As if the Koch Bros, Exxon, Adelson, Murdoch et al. would allow us.
1
If we would act only half as outraged at what some muslims do to our religion and culture, the muslim countries would be scorched.
We should straighten it out, we may tolerate their faith, but we will fight resolutely their hypocrisy. And if they get overexcited, we should show them an hard stance. We are not the one who should justify or excuse anything, not after what has happened in the recent times.
We should straighten it out, we may tolerate their faith, but we will fight resolutely their hypocrisy. And if they get overexcited, we should show them an hard stance. We are not the one who should justify or excuse anything, not after what has happened in the recent times.
14
You show us a large part of the problem when you refer to "our religion and culture."
According to you, not blunt: "The holy book that decrees death for blasphemy is the Bible (Leviticus 24:16)."
According to you, blunt: "To be blunt, Saudi Arabia legitimizes Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance."
Why is it normal to misrepresent Christianity, which is based on the New, not the Old Testament, when it is Islam that fully embraces the Old Testament, not the new, and "blunt" to state the truth, as seen in Saudi Islamic law?
"When Bill O’Reilly apologizes for I.R.A. bombings and the genocide by Christian Serbs, then Muslims will no doubt apologize for Paris."
I'm sure Bill will apologize when you can point to a single passage in the New Testament that advises adherents to kill other people. Or do you deny the Quran contains such passages?
"Let’s resist simplistic narratives on our side...Islam is as complex and diverse as, say, “journalism.”.”
Interesting. So what does the scripture of "journalism" say?
"Muslims include the terrorist who murdered Jews in Paris and the Malian worker there who risked his life to save seven Jews."
This isn't about Muslims, whose humanity shines through the awful instructions they are given. It's about the instructions. Have you read them carefully?
According to you, blunt: "To be blunt, Saudi Arabia legitimizes Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance."
Why is it normal to misrepresent Christianity, which is based on the New, not the Old Testament, when it is Islam that fully embraces the Old Testament, not the new, and "blunt" to state the truth, as seen in Saudi Islamic law?
"When Bill O’Reilly apologizes for I.R.A. bombings and the genocide by Christian Serbs, then Muslims will no doubt apologize for Paris."
I'm sure Bill will apologize when you can point to a single passage in the New Testament that advises adherents to kill other people. Or do you deny the Quran contains such passages?
"Let’s resist simplistic narratives on our side...Islam is as complex and diverse as, say, “journalism.”.”
Interesting. So what does the scripture of "journalism" say?
"Muslims include the terrorist who murdered Jews in Paris and the Malian worker there who risked his life to save seven Jews."
This isn't about Muslims, whose humanity shines through the awful instructions they are given. It's about the instructions. Have you read them carefully?
7
"Libyan extremists blew up a Foreign Ministry building last month because an official wished people 'Merry Christmas.'”
It takes a lot to cause me to appreciate the essential non-violence of Bill O'Reilly, who has never waved a block of C-4 during his diatribes against those of us who chirp, "Happy Holidays!"
"People of faith" has become equated in my mind with "drama queens." Like children throwing tantrums, gangs of high-minded goons roam their societies, despoiling whatever they choose.
Bertrand Russell said, "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong." My question to those who get their violent marching orders from either heaven or somewhere deep in the lizard brain is:
What if you're wrong?
Punishing Raif Badawi for pointing out that the emperor is naked jibes with our current trend toward government by the small minded and for the small minded. Imagine that a person suggests that perhaps we pay attention to this real world in all its glory and suffering and give the deity is my pal stuff a rest at least until we solve a few problems here!
As for our right wing press that couldn't see nuance with a guide dog, very few superstitious people are murderous thugs, although as I pointed out above, those who do kill in the name of the [insert deity here] are sometimes lionized by the same crowd that strongly deplores any violence committed by fans of other myths.
I mourn the loss of every child whose mind is hijacked by purveyors of transcendental lies.
It takes a lot to cause me to appreciate the essential non-violence of Bill O'Reilly, who has never waved a block of C-4 during his diatribes against those of us who chirp, "Happy Holidays!"
"People of faith" has become equated in my mind with "drama queens." Like children throwing tantrums, gangs of high-minded goons roam their societies, despoiling whatever they choose.
Bertrand Russell said, "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong." My question to those who get their violent marching orders from either heaven or somewhere deep in the lizard brain is:
What if you're wrong?
Punishing Raif Badawi for pointing out that the emperor is naked jibes with our current trend toward government by the small minded and for the small minded. Imagine that a person suggests that perhaps we pay attention to this real world in all its glory and suffering and give the deity is my pal stuff a rest at least until we solve a few problems here!
As for our right wing press that couldn't see nuance with a guide dog, very few superstitious people are murderous thugs, although as I pointed out above, those who do kill in the name of the [insert deity here] are sometimes lionized by the same crowd that strongly deplores any violence committed by fans of other myths.
I mourn the loss of every child whose mind is hijacked by purveyors of transcendental lies.
27
Well, I'm a Muslim, have been raised in a Muslim family, lived in a Muslim country and talk to Muslim all the time. And I say that the main cause of all these islamic terrorism is rooted in Islam. Please if you decide to use Koranic verses, be honest and include the ones that says kill all non-believers or that you can beat your wife. Do you really believe that Islamic State, Boca haram, terrorist in yemen, pakistan, Saudia Arabia, etc. somehow misunderstood Islam and you and other Islamic apologists got it right? Islam is a political ideology disguised as religion. All these Islamic terrorists that you claim have not understood Islam, are actually true Muslims because they follow in the footsteps of their prophet. They do what he did in his time when he ruthlessly expand his ideology. So, please before using selective Koranic verses to paint a more peaceful image of this faith, study the history of the faith and how they destroyed many great civilizations.
92
Thank you for speaking truth to power. I hope your example encourages more Muslims to do the same. The challenge is for the peaceful Muslims to reform their faith and allow it to embrace the 21st century in peace with the rest of the inhabitants of earth.
1
It is said that history is written by the winners (survivors).
Where is the other side of the coin regarding Islam?
All we have is Allah's version. BAH!
Where is the other side of the coin regarding Islam?
All we have is Allah's version. BAH!
You are distorting Quran by picking the verses selectively.
What Quran says about killing non-believers is in the
context of pagans(non believers) attacking muslims
to destroy Islam and perpetuate idol worship. The fact
is that pagans vilified Mohammad and his few followers
and attacked Medina when Mohammad fled there. The
command to kill pagans was in the context of self defence
and defense of Islam. It is the same as Roman pagans
were attacking christians in 1st and 2nd centuries. When
Christians became powerful after Constantine made
Christianity offical religion, they became aggressive
demolishing temples, killing non-believers like the philosopher
and mathematician Hypathia who was non-believer and
demolished Serpis temple in Alexandaria and burned the
library.
Mohammad in his last sermon sopke eloquently about
equality( 1150 years before French discovered egalite)
between the races, ethnic groups and gender. He enjoined
muslims to treat women with respect and dignity. Anyone
can read last sermon of Mohammad by googling it. It defines
the bottom line of Islam.
What Quran says about killing non-believers is in the
context of pagans(non believers) attacking muslims
to destroy Islam and perpetuate idol worship. The fact
is that pagans vilified Mohammad and his few followers
and attacked Medina when Mohammad fled there. The
command to kill pagans was in the context of self defence
and defense of Islam. It is the same as Roman pagans
were attacking christians in 1st and 2nd centuries. When
Christians became powerful after Constantine made
Christianity offical religion, they became aggressive
demolishing temples, killing non-believers like the philosopher
and mathematician Hypathia who was non-believer and
demolished Serpis temple in Alexandaria and burned the
library.
Mohammad in his last sermon sopke eloquently about
equality( 1150 years before French discovered egalite)
between the races, ethnic groups and gender. He enjoined
muslims to treat women with respect and dignity. Anyone
can read last sermon of Mohammad by googling it. It defines
the bottom line of Islam.
A wonderful article.
Islam is complex. How true.
There is a striking similarity between devoted conservatives and devoted liberals: they both seem to know what is "true Islam".
One is left to wonder why then when there are free elections like in Egypt or Gaza the hard core Islamists win.
Sounds like the people in Saudi Arabia are in favor of flogging. We didn't see any huge rallies against it.
It's time both liberals and conservative realize that most Muslims are not Jeffersonians.
True, most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.
Turning a blind eye to this fact is as unwise as Mr. Hannity's simplification.
Islam is complex. How true.
There is a striking similarity between devoted conservatives and devoted liberals: they both seem to know what is "true Islam".
One is left to wonder why then when there are free elections like in Egypt or Gaza the hard core Islamists win.
Sounds like the people in Saudi Arabia are in favor of flogging. We didn't see any huge rallies against it.
It's time both liberals and conservative realize that most Muslims are not Jeffersonians.
True, most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.
Turning a blind eye to this fact is as unwise as Mr. Hannity's simplification.
17
By our goverment not taking a stronger position against the Saudi terrorists...the Saudi family and government, we are allowing them the freedom to pursue their own form of Islamic jihad against their citizens. Islam fears knowledge and openness above all else because it gives people access to other ideas contrary tot the established dogma. We should have made it clear to the king that this bloggers punishment is beyond acceptable and force them to back down or gotten the blogger out. Saudis will never change as long as we do not pressure them , money will not help, nor reason, there has to be anothe y... perhaps a radio free Saudi Arabia broadcasting I for,anointed using the bloggers the ruling family so desire and fear.?
6
Unfortunately, the view presented in this article is a continuation of the same counter-productive beliefs, policies and tactics; blame Islam and Muslims, the problem is solely theirs, let us take the battle ground to them, manipulate Muslims and incite them fight each other ...etc
Well, Let us pause and reflect.
Such narrow minded attitude and discourse (followed by US Foreign Policies in the last two decades) brought us to the current miserable and dangerous situation. Certainly there are internal problems in the Muslem countries, but they are not the sole causes. Or we would have seen such extreme and terror acts in the last 6 decades.
It is easy and convenient to project the blame on others. And it is hard to admit responsibility for major parts of the blame.
Don't worry moderate Muslims are in fore-front fighting terrorism. However, one should have the courage to suggest a more productive discourse in helping them and in fighting terrorism, that includes a serious revision of US policies to be fair, even handed, and less intervening in the internal affairs of other countries. Enough of the "organized chaose" and "spreading democracy" stuff.
For a start, Just try an easy, just and cost-less simple approach: Realy help the Paletenians to have their own country and gain their human dignity (the old central problem in the region). Further more, Really help discourage inner Muslem fighting. Then whatch you are well perceived, and how terrorism retreat.
Well, Let us pause and reflect.
Such narrow minded attitude and discourse (followed by US Foreign Policies in the last two decades) brought us to the current miserable and dangerous situation. Certainly there are internal problems in the Muslem countries, but they are not the sole causes. Or we would have seen such extreme and terror acts in the last 6 decades.
It is easy and convenient to project the blame on others. And it is hard to admit responsibility for major parts of the blame.
Don't worry moderate Muslims are in fore-front fighting terrorism. However, one should have the courage to suggest a more productive discourse in helping them and in fighting terrorism, that includes a serious revision of US policies to be fair, even handed, and less intervening in the internal affairs of other countries. Enough of the "organized chaose" and "spreading democracy" stuff.
For a start, Just try an easy, just and cost-less simple approach: Realy help the Paletenians to have their own country and gain their human dignity (the old central problem in the region). Further more, Really help discourage inner Muslem fighting. Then whatch you are well perceived, and how terrorism retreat.
1
I hope you would remember your country's history since its inception and you would probably understand the ramifications of the involvement of the British and the Americans.
In 1915 we (West) being short sighted that we are first signed the Darin treaty with Ibn Saud which made the land captured by them a British protectorate. Then came Lawrence of Arabia and so on.
In order to continue their rule the Ibn Saud contracted with Mohammed Ibn Abd al-Wahhab from Nejd, the Ibn Saud’s hometown. Wahhab was the leader of a puritanical movement to cleanse the Islamic Practices. This arrangement helped Mohammed bin Saud to establish the Saudi State and the power sharing arrangement is still in place.
Once the British were losing the glitter of power and another power was rising the Saudis turned to the new power (US) and we have provided the protection since.
Now what was your question?
In 1915 we (West) being short sighted that we are first signed the Darin treaty with Ibn Saud which made the land captured by them a British protectorate. Then came Lawrence of Arabia and so on.
In order to continue their rule the Ibn Saud contracted with Mohammed Ibn Abd al-Wahhab from Nejd, the Ibn Saud’s hometown. Wahhab was the leader of a puritanical movement to cleanse the Islamic Practices. This arrangement helped Mohammed bin Saud to establish the Saudi State and the power sharing arrangement is still in place.
Once the British were losing the glitter of power and another power was rising the Saudis turned to the new power (US) and we have provided the protection since.
Now what was your question?
1
Does it suffice to note that Saudi's inception was in 1757? Long befor the US independence in 1976.
One needs to get the facts strait, before reaching conclusion.
Claiming real knowledge of history and making objective analysis of it, is hard work. One reads to read reliable sources to aquire such ability. I suggest "the Road to Mecca" as a start.
One needs to get the facts strait, before reaching conclusion.
Claiming real knowledge of history and making objective analysis of it, is hard work. One reads to read reliable sources to aquire such ability. I suggest "the Road to Mecca" as a start.
Perhaps this can be made more straightforward. There seems to be contention among three "freedoms" - freedom of religion, freedom of expression and freedom FROM violence. Common sense (an uncommon virtue, it seems), would say that the third in superior to the other two. Freedom from being attacked, injured, or killed - as a result of someone hiding behind the first two is fundamental. The first two freedoms can and are being perverted to justify self-interested behavior and irresponsibility at the expense of the third. It should be just the opposite. When you believe your form of religious or expressive freedom deprives others of their freedom FROM violence, then you have have gone to far.
5
The US has always been hypocritical in its foreign policy. We stomp around on the world stage, start wars and demand change from others while becoming allies with despotic regimes that commit horrific crimes. The Saudi's work overtly to commit terrorism and spend billions to promote radical Islam. Liberals and Conservatives have no issues with regimes that treat women as second class citizens. While the treatment of this one blogger is terrible, the institutionalized practices against women harms hundreds of millions and many generations/ Of course, this is not the exclusive purview of Islam. You need not go further than Orthodox Jewish communities to find the same issue.
Until we elevate woman's rights to the same level that we focused on Apartheid, we remain complicit in the crime
Until we elevate woman's rights to the same level that we focused on Apartheid, we remain complicit in the crime
9
I truly believe that the surest way to ensure reform in Islam is through the empowering of women in Islam. It is certainly not going to come from the male contingent. The majority if them are quite happy to have the women as chattel.
1
'The holy book that decrees death for blasphemy is the Bible (Leviticus 24:16).'
Totally irrelevant and an obvious attempt to deflect. What matters is that in 2015 it is muslims whose lives are more often than not in dangerif they want to convert or say something which angers the muslim religious establishment. Not Jews, not Christians. Only Muslims.
Totally irrelevant and an obvious attempt to deflect. What matters is that in 2015 it is muslims whose lives are more often than not in dangerif they want to convert or say something which angers the muslim religious establishment. Not Jews, not Christians. Only Muslims.
21
We are told the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
Muslims following the sayings of the Prophet and the words in Koran use the actual content of the text to justify their actions.
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
Just today, the NYT posted a 10 minute video about Malaysian Muslims who are going to Syria to fight apostate Shiites in a desire to become Martyrs so that they can die under the right circumstances.
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
The Bible and the Torah are also full of barbarism we're told. But where are the modern Christian and Jewish communities trying en mass to create theocracies that enforce that barbarism?
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
Palestinian Christians speak the same language, live under the same occupation conditions, are exposed to the same humiliation and lack of human rights, and yet there have been zero known Palestinian Christian suicide bombers.
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
Every country whose official state religion is Islam enforces these corporal punishments for thought crimes. ‘Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.’ al-Bukhari 9:45
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
Mr. Kristof, everyone acknowledges that most Muslims are kind, ordinary folk who wish nothing but to live their lives, but we have to stop pretending that the problem has nothing at all to do with Islam. Fundamentalist Jains will never kill anyone, no matter how orthodox they become.
Muslims following the sayings of the Prophet and the words in Koran use the actual content of the text to justify their actions.
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
Just today, the NYT posted a 10 minute video about Malaysian Muslims who are going to Syria to fight apostate Shiites in a desire to become Martyrs so that they can die under the right circumstances.
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
The Bible and the Torah are also full of barbarism we're told. But where are the modern Christian and Jewish communities trying en mass to create theocracies that enforce that barbarism?
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
Palestinian Christians speak the same language, live under the same occupation conditions, are exposed to the same humiliation and lack of human rights, and yet there have been zero known Palestinian Christian suicide bombers.
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
Every country whose official state religion is Islam enforces these corporal punishments for thought crimes. ‘Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.’ al-Bukhari 9:45
But the problem has nothing to do with Islam.
Mr. Kristof, everyone acknowledges that most Muslims are kind, ordinary folk who wish nothing but to live their lives, but we have to stop pretending that the problem has nothing at all to do with Islam. Fundamentalist Jains will never kill anyone, no matter how orthodox they become.
275
A most cogent response, Ben, the best so far.
6
"But where are the modern Christian and Jewish communities trying en mass to create theocracies that enforce that barbarism?"
Apparently you have not heard of the American and Israeli right.
Apparently you have not heard of the American and Israeli right.
1
@Ben...Very well said! And so very, very true.
Yes, let us avoid simplistic narratives, especially when they're false. But above all, let us always tell the truth.
Here’s the truth. The sorts of Islam fueled atrocities cited by Mr. Kristof (a tiny fraction of the ever-greater total) will continue, not to mention the abuse of women and children, the science denial, and many other problems produced to some degree by all world religions, until a tipping point is reached.
That point will come when the vast majority of humanity realizes that human decency, sanity, and compassion must always trump the divisive, contradictory, and erroneous mandates found in ALL ancient "holy" books. And that will occur only when most people are able to realize that none of those texts contain the instructions or "will" of any supernatural deity, but instead are simply human artifacts. The tipping point will take place when the majority advances enough to be able to laugh, with the readers and creators of Charlie Hebdo, at people who believe in one or another "Santa Claus" up in "heaven."
Until then, given modern communications, transportation, and easy access to horrific weapons, every person on earth will be imperiled by those who believe that "God" or "Allah" demands that unbelievers and apostates be made mortal enemies.
Until then, pleas like that of Mr. Kristof today, those of Mr. Friedman yesterday, and those of the brave but tragic blogger in Saudi Arabia will disappear impotently like smoke in a high wind.
Here’s the truth. The sorts of Islam fueled atrocities cited by Mr. Kristof (a tiny fraction of the ever-greater total) will continue, not to mention the abuse of women and children, the science denial, and many other problems produced to some degree by all world religions, until a tipping point is reached.
That point will come when the vast majority of humanity realizes that human decency, sanity, and compassion must always trump the divisive, contradictory, and erroneous mandates found in ALL ancient "holy" books. And that will occur only when most people are able to realize that none of those texts contain the instructions or "will" of any supernatural deity, but instead are simply human artifacts. The tipping point will take place when the majority advances enough to be able to laugh, with the readers and creators of Charlie Hebdo, at people who believe in one or another "Santa Claus" up in "heaven."
Until then, given modern communications, transportation, and easy access to horrific weapons, every person on earth will be imperiled by those who believe that "God" or "Allah" demands that unbelievers and apostates be made mortal enemies.
Until then, pleas like that of Mr. Kristof today, those of Mr. Friedman yesterday, and those of the brave but tragic blogger in Saudi Arabia will disappear impotently like smoke in a high wind.
28
Such a resonant truth. So clearly apparent, yet hidden behind so much of the "teaching" as the writer puts so eloquently.
1
There are times I think Marx got it wrong. Religion is not the opiate to the masses, it is the poison to the masses.
1
In the U.S. it is estimated that 60 percent of Americans do not know any Muslims, gaining their information about the Muslim world only through the media. With Hannity and O'Reilly spewing their contempt with virtually no debate, is it any wonder people have a misguided view of situations described in this column?
9
I have met a number of Muslim men in the work place. All competent engineers. None of them were in the least bit interested in being a friend or socializing at lunch or after work with the rest of us. I can't think of ever meeting a single Muslim woman. Make what you will of my anecdote, but I bet it is not uncommon.
1
Mr. Kristof wreaks of confusion and desperation.
In his recent Opinion column he reports that 75% of Muslims in Egypt,Afghanistan, and Jordan advocate killing other Muslims for leaving the faith.
He then cited that ONLY 16% of Muslims in Indonesia advocated the killings as if that is a small number.
Now he criticizes Saudi Arabia for legitimizing " Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance" intolerance.
He is reasonably "denounced" by others for seeming to minimize the problem and ignoring its magnitude.
In his recent Opinion column he reports that 75% of Muslims in Egypt,Afghanistan, and Jordan advocate killing other Muslims for leaving the faith.
He then cited that ONLY 16% of Muslims in Indonesia advocated the killings as if that is a small number.
Now he criticizes Saudi Arabia for legitimizing " Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance" intolerance.
He is reasonably "denounced" by others for seeming to minimize the problem and ignoring its magnitude.
25
"Saudi Arabia could play a leadership role in Islam." It does already Mr. Kristof. Your essay spells out its influence: "The kingdom oppresses Shiites, funds extremist Wahhabi madrasas across the Islamic world and last month referred two women to its antiterrorism courts — for driving cars."
84
Nick, all religions promise their adherents to deliver them to an ultimate state or place, call it heaven or consciousness or paradise. If the destination is the same, why do we quarrel over names, why do we personalize everything? From the time we are born, we are conditioned to our name, our gender, our color, our faith or non faith, our country, our tribe and nationality. We are never taught that we all share one consciousness, one quality of self awareness, like one big ocean, except we are taught that as waves on the ocean we are different from that other wave over there. Clearly the time has come for human beings to realize that we all emerge from one consciousness, play the drama on earth which is one big arena or stage, and then return to that same consciousness. If we are taught this truth from childhood, human beings who at one time understood and recognized this truth but forgotten it, will start to see each other as mirror images.
12
Nicholas Kristof picks out absurd comments made by some people in western media in order to mock legitimate concerns that people have about Muslims. He also points out the rare objection to Islamic terrorism that we hear from a few Muslims in an effort to calm peoples' fears about Islam. What he doesn't do is point out that mass protests occur in the Muslim world by people who are outraged by offensive cartoons, but no mass protests have ever taken place in the Muslim world by people who are outraged by terrorism done in the name of Islam. Since 9/11, I have taken to heart the message by Kristof and others to resist vilifying the entire Muslim world because, we are told, the vast majority of Muslims are against terrorism and are peaceful people. But now I question that stance. We must, at long last, hear from the Muslim world, in a LOUD voice, that Islamic terrorism is deplorable and must be stopped. As long as that does not happen, I will be asking myself "Why?"
202
It will never happen. Not with a fatwa or a gun to their head. This should be were we come in, isn't it?
Ken, you raise a valid point. However, how many protests against terrorism will it take before you will be convinced that Muslims in the Muslim world denounce extremism? The problem is not that there aren't protests against terrorisms, but rather that they never get media coverage. It is much more exciting to see those barbaric Muslims wreaking havoc and burning flags over a cartoon, than to show them supporting the right cause. Last month, thousands converged on a mosque in Islamabad to oust a cleric who was spewing hatred. Did it get any coverage in the Western media? The bigger problem is also one that Kristof identifies: the moderate voices in many Muslim countries are oppressed by totalitarian governments like that in Saudi Arabia. In such places, protesting against the status quo means imprisonment or death. Therefore, the moderate voice remain muffled.
47
To Ken
Hannity and O'Reilly work for the largest cable news channel in the country. By that fact, their comments are not absurd and must be treated as mainstream among white people.
Hannity and O'Reilly work for the largest cable news channel in the country. By that fact, their comments are not absurd and must be treated as mainstream among white people.
1
The world needs to see Muslims who actively and collectively work against and fight Islamic terror.
This is what is required to end this otherwise endless Islamic Jihad.
This is what is required to end this otherwise endless Islamic Jihad.
99
History has been witness to many such massacres. It's only at this time in circa 2015 that Islamic jihadis play that role. Imagine how European settlers systematically massacred native tribes they encountered as they settled and expanded territories in the Americas. There was no Internet in those days to alert the rest of the world of those brutalities, the tribes protecting their own territory and property were made out to be the "bad guys", in movies, thus conditioning the minds of the audience who never tired of seeing a "good guy" cowboy killing the bad guy indian. As human beings we are so gullible we buy into the insanity and pay bucks to watch it.
4
R,
Luckily you are perfect and without any flaws so you have no reason to work on own shortcomings.
Why don’t you show the Muslims how to improve their countries?
Why don’t you balance the federal budgets, eliminate the national debt, create the domestic jobs, increase the worker wages, return the American manufacturing from the overseas, eliminate the chronic trade deficits, cease the endless foreign wars, reduce the defense budget that equals the military spending of the rest of globe, end political corruption in Washington D.C, stop polarization of America and correct few other nuisances...
Luckily you are perfect and without any flaws so you have no reason to work on own shortcomings.
Why don’t you show the Muslims how to improve their countries?
Why don’t you balance the federal budgets, eliminate the national debt, create the domestic jobs, increase the worker wages, return the American manufacturing from the overseas, eliminate the chronic trade deficits, cease the endless foreign wars, reduce the defense budget that equals the military spending of the rest of globe, end political corruption in Washington D.C, stop polarization of America and correct few other nuisances...
1
A smaller suggestion. New York Times commenters who apparently have never known a muslim might see if there is any way that they can come in contact with muslims who are from the peaceful majority. If they do then they may find that these individuals do not differ so much from the rest of us.
And, as long as the USA (my country) is locked in an embrace with fundamentalist Saudi Arabia, then why not focus some of your attention there. Saudi Arabia has in many ways laid the foundation for IS and its terrorism. A transformed Saudi Arabia providing muslims who actively and collectively work against Islamic terror is what we need.
We won't get it.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
And, as long as the USA (my country) is locked in an embrace with fundamentalist Saudi Arabia, then why not focus some of your attention there. Saudi Arabia has in many ways laid the foundation for IS and its terrorism. A transformed Saudi Arabia providing muslims who actively and collectively work against Islamic terror is what we need.
We won't get it.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
39
Raif’s punishment is so cruel, and it may have an extended impact, since it will be executed over a long period. If, God forbid, he won’t survive it – it is just as bad as murdering Jews in France.
It seems to me that Islamic fundamentalists’ self-perception lies heavily on a comparison with the West. They emphasize Sharia law as juxtaposed with democratic codes. And if this is the case, brave bloggers like Raif cannot generate a change.
onourselvesandothers.com
It seems to me that Islamic fundamentalists’ self-perception lies heavily on a comparison with the West. They emphasize Sharia law as juxtaposed with democratic codes. And if this is the case, brave bloggers like Raif cannot generate a change.
onourselvesandothers.com
44
Nuke Saudi Arabia into radioactive glass. It has turned a brilliant prophet's teachings into a wallow of evil.
In disussions about creeping Islamisation, I often hear the counterpoint 'well, have you actually read the Koran? Until you do, you don't know what you're talking about'. It goes without saying that an Islamic scholar has read it several times, and what does he have to show for it: 50 lash marks. The Wahabist madmen running Saudi Arabia have just given me yet another excuse to not read that book.
46
When they do this, they are following Leviticus in the Old Testament, not the Koran. It isn't in the Koran. It is in the older books that they also follow, the ones they share with Christians and Jews.
And yes, there was a time when Christians and Jews followed the same commands from our common heritage of religious books, and did the same things. Bit remember, only a minority of Muslims behave this way now -- our Saudi allies are especially vicious and backward. Most of them are as opposed to the Saudis as we are, or rather more.
And yes, there was a time when Christians and Jews followed the same commands from our common heritage of religious books, and did the same things. Bit remember, only a minority of Muslims behave this way now -- our Saudi allies are especially vicious and backward. Most of them are as opposed to the Saudis as we are, or rather more.
10
What would it look like if moneyed people from other countries chose American politicians they deemed moderate and "supported" them?
4
What if they picked better than we do? It wouldn't be hard.
16
Uh...that's exactly what's going on Judy. World oligarchy.
How much more obvious must it be.
How much more obvious must it be.
Saudi Arabia again? Why pick on our ally? Could it be the funding of Al Qaeda, ISIS, and the wahhabi madrasas? Damn, why does that keep coming up? Isn't Iran the big terrorist country, not Saudi Arabia? What do you mean the Sunnis perpetrate 20 terrorist events for every Shia event? State sponsored and inspired terrorism is largely a Sunni enterprise and funded by gulf nations, yet we follow the Israeli lead and blame Iran? Imagine what would have happened if 15 of the 19 terrorists who attacked America on 9/11 were Iranian? Would we have attacked Iraq then?
Yes. It is state sponsored terrorism in an absolute monarchy, who is selling so much oil right now to "maintain market share"(meaning: crush the American oil boom) that jails and whips reformers and has stalwart defenders like O'Really: Saudi Arabia.
Yes. It is state sponsored terrorism in an absolute monarchy, who is selling so much oil right now to "maintain market share"(meaning: crush the American oil boom) that jails and whips reformers and has stalwart defenders like O'Really: Saudi Arabia.
119
@ Joseph from upstate New York from which I left for Sweden. I have one comment accepted at the same time as yours that provides a must read article from the Times on Saudi Aramco becoming half owner of giant refinery in Port Arhur, Texas. You and I and many others keep pointing out what you point out but to no avail so far.
The day that Barack Obama admits that we have chosen the wrong country to be our Middle Eastern ally and then visits Iran will be the day you and I and quite a few others can quietly say, "finally"
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
The day that Barack Obama admits that we have chosen the wrong country to be our Middle Eastern ally and then visits Iran will be the day you and I and quite a few others can quietly say, "finally"
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
1
We should also look to the religious fanatics in our own ranks who would impose a Christian version of Sharia law on all of us. It is the fanatics of all stripes who are the enemy of truth and progress.
157
Why in the world would anyone think we need to look at christian fundamentalists in response to Islamic terror?
3
Ridiculous comparison. While libs clutch the pearls over Chick-Fil-A and Hobby Lobby, jihadis are massacring thousands all over the world. To equate the two is absurd. Get back to us when Christians in despised Dixie start shooting up newspaper offices in Birmingham. Then we'll talk.
5
And what exactly is the "Christian version of Sharia law" in America that you speak of? Cutting off heads? Stoning adulterers? Death for blasphemy? The fact is there is no true comparison between today's Christianity and Islam.
1
I can't understand why the world turns a blind eye to Saudi Arabia; the source of this evil called Wahhabism which dictates its own interpretation of Islam and wages massive campaigns against anyone who tries in reform the islamic religion and makes it compatible with the modern world.In Saudi Arabia people are publicly beheaded ,flogged ,have their hands or legs cut after each Friday prayer in front of people including children getting out of mosques .the charges are sometimes absurd to say the least:practising sorcery for instance.Thanks to petrodollar wahhabism has gained ground in all muslim countries especially the Arab World poisoning the minds its youth with messages of hatred ,intolerance , secterianism and ignorance .Nurturing on deception ,failing educative systems ,political oppression and above all on Global injustice .
180
I will put it more simply. Why does the leader of our "World Leader" country, the USA, turn a blind eye toward Saudi Arabia.?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Just a century ago, it would have been unthinkable to have a pair of Muslim enter somewhere, and then blow themselves up, killing innocent people; or to massacre the staff of a satirical magazine like Charlie Hebdo. Things like that were simply not done. A great part of Palestinian society used to be moderate earlier, as the same could be said about many other Muslim societies, including those of India, Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt and Indonesia...
As a Muslim, I know Islam is not only a religion but it is also an enormous culture, one of the notable on Earth, which has enriched humanity with some of the paramount scientific and architectural achievements, and with many discoveries in medicine. Muslims have written striking poetry, and composed beautiful music. But above all, they developed some of the earliest social structures in the world, including enormous public hospitals and the first universities on earth (University of al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morocco).
You’ve (as well as many others including some commenter over here, as well) rightly pointed out (but not limited to) that almost all radical movements in today’s Islam, anywhere in the world, are tied to Wahhabism, and its supporters whomsoever. Those radical implants have been serving several purposes now (but for who is a question). As a reader, I expect more write-ups from you to explore that. Thank you for the excellent opinion piece.
As a Muslim, I know Islam is not only a religion but it is also an enormous culture, one of the notable on Earth, which has enriched humanity with some of the paramount scientific and architectural achievements, and with many discoveries in medicine. Muslims have written striking poetry, and composed beautiful music. But above all, they developed some of the earliest social structures in the world, including enormous public hospitals and the first universities on earth (University of al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morocco).
You’ve (as well as many others including some commenter over here, as well) rightly pointed out (but not limited to) that almost all radical movements in today’s Islam, anywhere in the world, are tied to Wahhabism, and its supporters whomsoever. Those radical implants have been serving several purposes now (but for who is a question). As a reader, I expect more write-ups from you to explore that. Thank you for the excellent opinion piece.
75
Yes Muslims gave the gift of Greek science and philosophy to the Christian West mired in the Dark Ages. And then before the year 1000 they turned away from science and reason and embraced fundamentalism. To such an extent that less than 10 Muslims out of over a billion have won Nobel Prizes. A shame, and a loss for all humanity.
9
Very true and sad. Once Islamic cultures led the world in science and arts. Now it is difficult to name a single scientific advance or fine work of literature or art from Islamic countries in recent years. The Muslims who now achieve great things are living in non-Muslim countries. Think of the great physicist and Nobel Laureate Abdus Salam, who worked in Europe. As an Ahmadiya, he was not considered a true Muslim in his home country Pakistan, and his efforts to help establish a scientific renewal there were stymied by the fanatics. The fanatics are sending their countries into a downward spiral, a descent into ignorance and violence.
5
Good points.
The only governments in the middle east that have had any long term stability are the most brutal and corrupt (Saddam Hussein, the Saudis, Bashar Assad). Then the Arab spring led to uprisings by moderates. The uprisings and associated violence attracted more violent and extremists members, leading to civil war and government overthrows. Today's "good guys" end up being tomorrow's bad guys, and round and round it goes.
We need to stay out of that region. All that we have accomplished is thousands of our military killed, and millions of civilians killed or displaced.
We need to stay out of that region. All that we have accomplished is thousands of our military killed, and millions of civilians killed or displaced.
7
It isn't that we think all Muslims are extremists, but rather that the nonextremists are not decrying or speaking out against the atrocities that their brothers, (or perhaps distant cousins) are espousing! Where are the moderates who protest bombing schools, punishing women, and torturing those who disagree?
5
And you didn't see FDR gushing like a little school girl holding Hirohito's hand.
5
"To be blunt, Saudi Arabia legitimizes Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance."
*****
To be blunt, American politics is so much in bed with these people that we cannot and will not do anything but look the other way. We have depended upon them for the oil that they have and we will do anything it takes to make sure we continue as things are now.
*****
To be blunt, American politics is so much in bed with these people that we cannot and will not do anything but look the other way. We have depended upon them for the oil that they have and we will do anything it takes to make sure we continue as things are now.
43
So, who is it that needs to stand up and be heard? Moderate Muslims or brave, intelligent citizens of the United States? Or both? We vote for these guys who perpetuate an untenable situation and put us all at risk.
Occupy your own minds, folks!
Occupy your own minds, folks!
Of course there is complexity and many Moslems are not primitive animals. But the forces of violent primitivism within the religion might be too strong to be suppressed without violent opposition from outside the Islamic community. In this country desegregation had to be shoved down the the throats of those who backed segregation. It had to be done by force from outside the localities where segregation existed. It didn't matter that there were many who lived among the segregationists who despised the system. They weren't strong enough on their own. Integration bad to be forced from outside and above. The same is likely true here. So please stop making excuses for Islam. Change might come, but there are too many within the religion who are too primitive and will only change when it's forced on them.
16
When I saw that phrase "religious right" I thought were about to discuss the Republican know nothings and the Tea Party extremists. I think I am justified in making this observation since if they get their way and start a war against Iran at Benjamin Netanyahu's bidding, then the consequences will be far worse than what IS and Boco Haram have wrought.
Fundamentalists are dangerous whatever their religion.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Fundamentalists are dangerous whatever their religion.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
"When Bill O’Reilly apologizes for I.R.A. bombings and the genocide by Christian Serbs, then Muslims will no doubt apologize for Paris."
I agree with 90% of this article, however, the above argument is getting tired.
I have no love for O'Reilly,Murdoch, etc., but these supposed Christian atrocities are yesterday's news, while Islamic extremists murdered thousands in the past week!
I'll gladly apologize for the Crusades, but it won't help to move the discussion , forward in any productive way.
I agree with 90% of this article, however, the above argument is getting tired.
I have no love for O'Reilly,Murdoch, etc., but these supposed Christian atrocities are yesterday's news, while Islamic extremists murdered thousands in the past week!
I'll gladly apologize for the Crusades, but it won't help to move the discussion , forward in any productive way.
48
"but these supposed Christian atrocities are yesterday's news..."
1. You suggest that if it's not in the headlines it's not important. Justice delayed is justice denied. Also check Peter King's support of the IRA and his demonizing of all American Muslims.
2. It is not yesterday's news in Ireland. People still beseech Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness to tell them where their murdered and disappeared relatives are buried.
As for the Crusades, check how often Bush used the word "crusade" in his speeches preparing for war in Iraq.
1. You suggest that if it's not in the headlines it's not important. Justice delayed is justice denied. Also check Peter King's support of the IRA and his demonizing of all American Muslims.
2. It is not yesterday's news in Ireland. People still beseech Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness to tell them where their murdered and disappeared relatives are buried.
As for the Crusades, check how often Bush used the word "crusade" in his speeches preparing for war in Iraq.
2
And beyond all the social complexity are individuals. I had the impression that at some point we chose to ignore the issues at the individual level that lead to terrorism behavior, and I have never understood why. I don't mean that it's irrelevant that terrorists belong to groups, but I think so much of what we react to are trappings of something that is brought into the world on account of deeper issues -- theology and politics are ideas, not emotional drivers. The harmful ideas would not be attractive, I don't think, to people with a different emotional outlook.
2
Of course Obama has registered his outrage! And so has Hillary and Kerry. And what about Rand Paul, and Rubio...and...well...you get the point. Small wonder that Islamic radicals feel free, if not compelled to behead infidels. It's quicker and easier than 1,000 lashings. I wonder if Mitt Romney noticed? Or Mr. Biden. and John Boehner. Do we have anyone with any courage?
9
The issue is still that Islamic terrorists are killing people all over the world!!!! and Muslims are doing zero to punish them and condemn their actions. Some mouth some words in opposition, but to modify the culture to outlaw these killings has never happened. Who the heck is intolerant here?
33
TEK: Who is intolerant here? the Christian Right, Conservatives, Rush, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Glen Beck, the Tea Party. If the South had its way, liberals would be banned. There are no Democrats in much of the South, they've been gerrymandered out, they untolerated. America is not a democratic country. It is a one party-Soviet style state headed by leaders of the Christian right in alliance with corporate leaders.
3
Every major (and minor) Islamic organization condemned the Paris attacks (as they have most other atrocities). If you took your head out of your Fox, you would be aware of that TEK.
This is simply not true. The U.S media does not report on anti terror programs in Muslim countries. The most violence occurs in those countries where the government is very weak. You notice how few incidents of terrorism happen in Saudi? I would add that the more free people feel, the more they feel enabled to act on their grievances. So, in the U.S., for example, people feel free to shoot others over all sorts of slights. Violence is the downside of freedom.
This poor man's brave ordeal should be world wide headlines each and every tine he is flogged. Perhaps we can eventually get this grotesque sentence reduced. Can anyone be so foolish as to think this horrific spectacle uplifts Islam? "Insulting Islam" indeed!
It is long, long past time that the US and the rest of the world face up to the fact that one of the most aggressively conservative variants of Islam is the one that's been practiced in Saudi Arabia for well over 100 years, and they are an ally of ours in name only. Their ongoing funding of countless religious schools world wide for decades has helped seed a profoundly socially restrictive and conservative fundamentalist movement, one that's been the bane of the Muslim world as much or more than the Western World.
Just remember, as so well pointed out in this article, for all the ranting about Western affronts to the Muslim World, the chief killer of Muslims by far (even those at prayer in mosques or on pilgrimage) is other Muslims. The monthly death toll world wide from Muslims killing other Muslims should be a far greater spiritual affront to the Faithful.
We keep wondering why we are targeted by Muslim radicals. Perhaps we will best answer that by trying to understand why they have so many radicals that kill their own.
It is long, long past time that the US and the rest of the world face up to the fact that one of the most aggressively conservative variants of Islam is the one that's been practiced in Saudi Arabia for well over 100 years, and they are an ally of ours in name only. Their ongoing funding of countless religious schools world wide for decades has helped seed a profoundly socially restrictive and conservative fundamentalist movement, one that's been the bane of the Muslim world as much or more than the Western World.
Just remember, as so well pointed out in this article, for all the ranting about Western affronts to the Muslim World, the chief killer of Muslims by far (even those at prayer in mosques or on pilgrimage) is other Muslims. The monthly death toll world wide from Muslims killing other Muslims should be a far greater spiritual affront to the Faithful.
We keep wondering why we are targeted by Muslim radicals. Perhaps we will best answer that by trying to understand why they have so many radicals that kill their own.
27
"One risk is that the West will respond to Islamic terror with Islamophobia and intolerance that aggravate religious tensions"
-- Mr. Kristof
***
I think we've moved way beyond this point. If anything, it's this fear that has led to a denial and unwillingness to speak openly about the threat of Islamic extremism.
It's time to separate peaceful from violent, Muslim from extremist. We all know who the problem is -- and it is not peaceful Muslims. If anything, peaceful Muslims need to hear more about the problem, not less.
It's only through open and honest dialogue that we can demonstrate that our problem is not with Muslims but with extremists.
-- Mr. Kristof
***
I think we've moved way beyond this point. If anything, it's this fear that has led to a denial and unwillingness to speak openly about the threat of Islamic extremism.
It's time to separate peaceful from violent, Muslim from extremist. We all know who the problem is -- and it is not peaceful Muslims. If anything, peaceful Muslims need to hear more about the problem, not less.
It's only through open and honest dialogue that we can demonstrate that our problem is not with Muslims but with extremists.
22
When Muslims who practice islam as a peaceful religion engage in dialogue they are called liars, told they are ignorant of their own religion and accused of being covert murderers. Extremist islamic groups have great friends in the islamophobes as both sides work to discredit any view of Islam but the extremist view.
Islamic reformer? That is an oxymoron. Islam, by definition is not subject to reform, did not the prophet say so.
10
Apologist Kristoff essentially avoids the issue of radical Islamic terrorism (yes, that is what it actually is and we-including the White House and the NY Times-need to call it that) by repeatedly emphasizing the obvious fact that most Moslems are peaceful and not terrorists. No kidding.
Kistoff continuously refuses to address the fact that there is a huge radical movement in the Moslem world whose goal is to murder all those who do not agree with it and to attack the fundamental freedoms of the Western world. It is a issue that we must all address, those believing in human rights, including Moslem leaders themselves. Taking cheap shots at the likes of Bill O'Reilly in an article does not promote the insights needed to solve this difficult situation. Neither does emphasizing the problem of Islamaphobia without looking at the fundamental problem in a significant section of the Moslem world.
Kistoff continuously refuses to address the fact that there is a huge radical movement in the Moslem world whose goal is to murder all those who do not agree with it and to attack the fundamental freedoms of the Western world. It is a issue that we must all address, those believing in human rights, including Moslem leaders themselves. Taking cheap shots at the likes of Bill O'Reilly in an article does not promote the insights needed to solve this difficult situation. Neither does emphasizing the problem of Islamaphobia without looking at the fundamental problem in a significant section of the Moslem world.
53
How about trying to quantify your generalization about 'huge radical movement' or 'significant section of the Muslim world.' Is this what you heard on Fox News or do you have any proof to back up this claim? Until you do, it's like just blowing hot air.
Actually, his opinion piece just did exactly what you said it didn't. He condemned the radical extremists in Saudi and holds the Saudi government accountable.
1
Perhaps Nicholas should change his first name to Neville. More appropriate for a fawning appeaser.
1
The meaning of the word Islam is not peace, but submission. And the early peaceful parts of the Quran, written before Muhammed becam a warrior, are irrelevant since Islamic law says that what comes later becomes the law. Hence, with all due respect to the wishful thinkers (including myself before reading and researching) the law is with the extremists, who follow the example of their prophet, when not keeping a peace treaty with Mecca, or when behaving the Jews in Heibar and raping their wives and daughters. This is a huge challenge for the peaceful majority - how does one deal with such a dichotomy between religious teachings and the values one believes in. Egypt's president, who openly called for a religious revolution in a meeting with Egyptian Imams deserves the Nobel Peace Prize, but I suspect that the protection around him had already increased (Saadat was assassinated by Muslim Brotherhood members). One thing is clear - the world is facing many years of terror. But the West is partly responsible. The fact that even today the Obama administration refuses the include the word Muslim or Islam in the name of the forthcoming meeting on extremism is an example of political correctness in its worst. The fact that in the face of continuing terror against Israel the West accepts the ideas of the antisemitic BDS is nothing less than support of terror against the Jews. Appeasement of Extreme Islam and Sharia discourages moderate Muslims and is counterproductive.
38
Terrorism is asymmetrical warfare. Terrorists are evil people, and we should not care about "what the terrorists hope to provoke". We should care about what we hope to provoke: the eradication of all terrorists.
If is foolish to play the game on the terms of terrorists. Instead, we should do this: bomb commercial and industrial sites in Saudi Arabia until it stops funding terrorism. After all, bombs are relatively cheap, and no nation can drop as many bombs onto buildings as we can. We should destroy assets in Saudi Arabia, not people. Leave it to others to kill terrorists. It would be enough for the United States to simply defund terrorism.
If is foolish to play the game on the terms of terrorists. Instead, we should do this: bomb commercial and industrial sites in Saudi Arabia until it stops funding terrorism. After all, bombs are relatively cheap, and no nation can drop as many bombs onto buildings as we can. We should destroy assets in Saudi Arabia, not people. Leave it to others to kill terrorists. It would be enough for the United States to simply defund terrorism.
13
The Saudis institutionalize Islamic intolerance and oppression and fuel Islamic extremism, but when was the last time you heard any U.S. Government official criticize the Saudis or propose any sanctions for their fomenting Islamic terror?
And then what about the lack of journalistic reporting on the fact that Attorney General Holder was in Paris for some counter-terrorism talks on Saturday. So did he stay in Paris on Sunday but not go to the rally or did he get out of town before the rally? So not only did Obama not attend the rally with 40 world leaders, but his Attorney General was in Paris but apparently chose to do something else than have the U.S.Government stand with France and Europe to counter Islamic terror.
In both cases the US Government has failed to show any leadership.
And then what about the lack of journalistic reporting on the fact that Attorney General Holder was in Paris for some counter-terrorism talks on Saturday. So did he stay in Paris on Sunday but not go to the rally or did he get out of town before the rally? So not only did Obama not attend the rally with 40 world leaders, but his Attorney General was in Paris but apparently chose to do something else than have the U.S.Government stand with France and Europe to counter Islamic terror.
In both cases the US Government has failed to show any leadership.
15
While we deliberately choose to blind ourselves to the overt hypocrisy of America's foreign policy, the rest of the world does not tune in daily to Fox, CNN, and MSNBC, and so they are able to see our Mideast policy for what it is: blind acquiescence to any regime that abstains from attacking Israel and promotes US military interests. The same administrations that have isolated Cuba, North Korea and Iran for nuclear ambitions and/or human rights violations turn a blind eye to Saudi Arabia, Israel, Pakistan, China, and many other nations for the exact same violations.
Oddly enough, America remains a beacon of hope and security throughout the world - but we will not hold that position forever if we continue to buy this obscene notion that we don't have to change anything. We are in a new information age where more and more citizens of the world have access to information, and they do not like what they see.
Oddly enough, America remains a beacon of hope and security throughout the world - but we will not hold that position forever if we continue to buy this obscene notion that we don't have to change anything. We are in a new information age where more and more citizens of the world have access to information, and they do not like what they see.
19
Where can we judge "Moderate Islam" and "radical extreme Islam" ? Can we support moderate and condemn radical?
Nonsense.meaningless.
We can only support Islam as a whole.Whether It is false or real.
Other option is notning
Nonsense.meaningless.
We can only support Islam as a whole.Whether It is false or real.
Other option is notning
1
Islam is a religion. Christianity is a religion. There are radical and moderate forms of Islam and radical and moderate forms of Christianity. Can we support moderate Islam or moderate Christianity? Yes/No. Can we support radical Islam or radical Christianity? Yes/No. We can certainly reject radical forms of each while supporting moderate forms of each.
5
Very good article that shows solidarity with poor Badawi. In his photos, he seems rather frail and his wife says (on The Guardian) that he won't make it through the 1,000 lashes. A foreign policy based on principles is in the long run much better than one based on the interests of the powerful. The West is secular, and should distinguish between secular countries of all kinds and religious "republics". In South Asia, for example, only India is reasonably secular, and even that secularism has important forces arraigned against it. All other countries in the region make their minorities into non-citizens at best, and celebrate their torture and massacres at worst. By definition and elementary logic, a religious republic is formed to eliminate its minorities. The recent addition of Israel to the list of religious states is a very sad development, since the people there are not mostly in the Middle Ages. Why does the West encourage this sort of "republic" with special treatment? It is Western policy that should be modified to permit movement towards a better World. Otherwise, this kind of behavior will be fortified. In the case of Badawi, have all the Western countries at least protested the crimes being committed by the Government of Saudi Arabia against him? The same goes for Asia Bibi in Pakistan.
7
Yes--moderation is good; indeed perfection--not to be confused with means, medians or modes.
Sometimes though "support for moderates" is taken to mean refraining from criticism and so is taken to imply that "Charlie" was wrong, intolerant even hypocritical.
The alleged hypocrisy? CH promoted hatred of (extremist) Muslims for their promoting hatred of their critics.
Whoa!
Haters want harm--jihad means killing.
Critics want the truth--yes--it can hurt. But hurt just feels bad--painful; often feeling bad (pain) is a good thing--a warning of immanent or actual tissue damage or realizing you've been a fool.
Fools take offense--hurt feelings--at being called out as fools.
I often told students--"Respecting you does not mean respecting/admiring your opinions; indeed leaving them un-criticized humors you--disrespecting you as a rational person.
Of course some tried to get me fired for criticizing their religionS. They tried to trump academic freedom by playing politics.
Yes--they have freedom of religion (in the political domain)--if no hurt or harm comes of it--and if it is law abiding.
But academia trumps politics--despite funding dependence--theirs is a higher standard of rational belief and dialectical discourse.
A "free" polity tolerates folly; academia does not. Nor does a free press--if it's a wise public servant.
Sometimes though "support for moderates" is taken to mean refraining from criticism and so is taken to imply that "Charlie" was wrong, intolerant even hypocritical.
The alleged hypocrisy? CH promoted hatred of (extremist) Muslims for their promoting hatred of their critics.
Whoa!
Haters want harm--jihad means killing.
Critics want the truth--yes--it can hurt. But hurt just feels bad--painful; often feeling bad (pain) is a good thing--a warning of immanent or actual tissue damage or realizing you've been a fool.
Fools take offense--hurt feelings--at being called out as fools.
I often told students--"Respecting you does not mean respecting/admiring your opinions; indeed leaving them un-criticized humors you--disrespecting you as a rational person.
Of course some tried to get me fired for criticizing their religionS. They tried to trump academic freedom by playing politics.
Yes--they have freedom of religion (in the political domain)--if no hurt or harm comes of it--and if it is law abiding.
But academia trumps politics--despite funding dependence--theirs is a higher standard of rational belief and dialectical discourse.
A "free" polity tolerates folly; academia does not. Nor does a free press--if it's a wise public servant.
"Saudi Arabia legitimizes Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance."
This blunt statement is good start toward getting our priorities in order, but without the word "terrorism" it is still dangerously ingenuous. The sooner we start unabashedly naming Salafism and Saudi Arabia as the origin and vector of the psychotic condition knows as "jihad," and crafting security policy in light of that truism, the safer the world will be.
This blunt statement is good start toward getting our priorities in order, but without the word "terrorism" it is still dangerously ingenuous. The sooner we start unabashedly naming Salafism and Saudi Arabia as the origin and vector of the psychotic condition knows as "jihad," and crafting security policy in light of that truism, the safer the world will be.
16
Come on Nicholas! You need to do the right thing and offer some depth and context. This incident and thousands of others like it, has a very clear path that leads directly to the current terrorist attacks being unleashed on the west and around the world. Cause - effect. For a century now Western powers and corporations have kept the brutal middle eastern regimes in power, or installed tyrants of our own in exchange for cheap oil. We put military bases there to protect the tyrants and turn a blind eye while they brutalize their populations and do the very least possible to meet their basic needs. We are complicit in this slavery. Now the chickens are coming home to roost but still the media refuses to connect the dots between US policy and the inevitable violent reaction we're now experiencing in the form of jihad. And we're still doing it!! We shove western democracy down their throats, then yank it out from under then when they elect someone we don't like. Then we croak on from our pulpit about human rights abuses which we routinely job out to these repressive governments to do for us when we aren't getting what we want. We're hypocrites. The people there have known it for decades now. The only people who don't are the American public who are still sound asleep while its government pillages the third world. And the media sings the lullaby to keep us anesthetized.
7
How does any of that explain the Malaysian Muslim Imam who goes to Syria in order to die under the right circumstances, defending his religious from infidels? The infidels in question? Shiites, Alawites, other Muslims!
Our misadventures in the middle east and corporate greed of western companies did not create the Sunni suicide bomber in Pakistan who makes a youtube video about the horrors of living next to apostate Shiites and the pleasures that await martyrs in paradise and then blows himself up in a Shitte Pakistani Mosque.
Our misadventures in the middle east and corporate greed of western companies did not create the Sunni suicide bomber in Pakistan who makes a youtube video about the horrors of living next to apostate Shiites and the pleasures that await martyrs in paradise and then blows himself up in a Shitte Pakistani Mosque.
1
I agree with you to an extent that the western powers have some responsibility for the present situation, but life was worse under the Ottomans, perhaps less turbulent than it is now, since the sultans ruled with an iron hand and brooked no opposition. Due to the autocratic history of the region as well as the tribal culture, it will take a long time for democracy to take hold, let alone flourish.
Ben, Islamic fundamentalism is simply the outlet that's been used to express the rage. Just as Nazism was the outlet that a humiliated Germany used to express its rage and the KKK expressed the rage of white southern men who felt humiliated. Not all Germans were Nazis, not all southerners supported the KKK, just as not all Muslims are in favor of Jihad.
I agree with you. The problem is very complex, and the Sunni Shiite conflict goes back centuries. That said, when poor Muslims around the world see us supporting dictators to get what we want, flying in the face of the ideals we've preached, can it be any wonder that it doesn't take much for radical clerics to focus the rage of drifting, angry young men toward us?? Where would the whole world be today if Western nations had insisted on reforms, educated the people of those countries, established trade that diversified their economies as a prerequisite for setting up the oil infrastructure and buying it from them?? Instead, we colluded with those tyrants to keep their people down and now we're paying for it.
I agree with you. The problem is very complex, and the Sunni Shiite conflict goes back centuries. That said, when poor Muslims around the world see us supporting dictators to get what we want, flying in the face of the ideals we've preached, can it be any wonder that it doesn't take much for radical clerics to focus the rage of drifting, angry young men toward us?? Where would the whole world be today if Western nations had insisted on reforms, educated the people of those countries, established trade that diversified their economies as a prerequisite for setting up the oil infrastructure and buying it from them?? Instead, we colluded with those tyrants to keep their people down and now we're paying for it.
1
Love those well informed US politicians and journalists who keep calling Saudi Arabia - our "moderate" ally in the region.....
5
Islamic militants and terrorist is so large a problem that grasping it, let alone solving it, is problematic.
Read Tom Friedman's Op-Ed (1/14/15) titled "We Need Another Giant Protest".
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/opinion/thomas-friedman-we-need-anothe...
He makes a salient point about what is really needed and his point is well-taken.
"That would be a million-person march against the jihadists across the Arab-Muslim world, organized by Arabs and Muslims for Arabs and Muslims, without anyone in the West asking for it — not just because of what happened in Paris but because of the scores of Muslims recently murdered by jihadists in Pakistan, Yemen, Iraq, Libya, Nigeria and Syria."
Where is the Muslim Martin Luther. Luther brought about a revolution and the Protestant Reformation when he questioned Catholic dogma in the 16th century.
"The Protestant Reformation was the religious, political, intellectual and cultural upheaval that splintered Catholic Europe, setting in place the structures and beliefs that would define the continent in the modern era.
In northern and central Europe, reformers like Martin Luther, John Calvin and Henry VIII challenged papal authority and questioned the Church’s ability to define Christian practice."
Such a figure is sorely needed. We should give sanctuary to such a person when he appears - as a starting solution.
An essential step would be to ban entry to all other Muslims into the Western world - regardless.
Read Tom Friedman's Op-Ed (1/14/15) titled "We Need Another Giant Protest".
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/opinion/thomas-friedman-we-need-anothe...
He makes a salient point about what is really needed and his point is well-taken.
"That would be a million-person march against the jihadists across the Arab-Muslim world, organized by Arabs and Muslims for Arabs and Muslims, without anyone in the West asking for it — not just because of what happened in Paris but because of the scores of Muslims recently murdered by jihadists in Pakistan, Yemen, Iraq, Libya, Nigeria and Syria."
Where is the Muslim Martin Luther. Luther brought about a revolution and the Protestant Reformation when he questioned Catholic dogma in the 16th century.
"The Protestant Reformation was the religious, political, intellectual and cultural upheaval that splintered Catholic Europe, setting in place the structures and beliefs that would define the continent in the modern era.
In northern and central Europe, reformers like Martin Luther, John Calvin and Henry VIII challenged papal authority and questioned the Church’s ability to define Christian practice."
Such a figure is sorely needed. We should give sanctuary to such a person when he appears - as a starting solution.
An essential step would be to ban entry to all other Muslims into the Western world - regardless.
11
Very fine column, Nicholas K. I add this link concerning our ally, Saudi Arabia.
The quoted material is from the Times Email to me after clicking on Send me a copy. Note especially the word "Foothold".
"Texas Refinery Is Saudi Foothold in the U.S.
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
The Motiva refinery in Port Arthur, the largest in the United States, ensures a bigger market for Saudi crude and a stronger global voice for the kingdom.
@ http://nyti.ms/12ntxDB"
Saudi Arabia Aramco is 50% owner. I recommend reading this superior reporting by Times reporter Clifford Kraus who noted in 2013 that the Saudis wanted as little publicity as possible about this move. The refinery is there to produce refined product for the world market from Saudi crude and possibly "Keystone crude"
Read that and then read the Kristof column again. We and the Saudis hand in hand. What an appalling state of affairs.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
The quoted material is from the Times Email to me after clicking on Send me a copy. Note especially the word "Foothold".
"Texas Refinery Is Saudi Foothold in the U.S.
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
The Motiva refinery in Port Arthur, the largest in the United States, ensures a bigger market for Saudi crude and a stronger global voice for the kingdom.
@ http://nyti.ms/12ntxDB"
Saudi Arabia Aramco is 50% owner. I recommend reading this superior reporting by Times reporter Clifford Kraus who noted in 2013 that the Saudis wanted as little publicity as possible about this move. The refinery is there to produce refined product for the world market from Saudi crude and possibly "Keystone crude"
Read that and then read the Kristof column again. We and the Saudis hand in hand. What an appalling state of affairs.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
5
Did it ever occur to people that now is not a good time in history,
to be making fun of foreign leaders. to be publishing or making movies, that disparage people, say, of Muslim faith ?
It isn't very smart. It isn't nice.
Of course we know things published shouldn't have to pass any 'politeness' test. That is especially true, we could note parenthetically,
except where people are being 'impolitic' according to current mores ... what can't be talked about, at all, in the 'wrong' way.
Thus we mustn't speak disparagingly, or make movies, or write books, that say the 'wrong thing': ... as the recent fire chief in Atlanta did, and was then fired for doing.
Yet we are allowed to make silly movies about North Korea's 'dear leader', that are terribly hurtful, or write articles like recently in a Paris newspaper, that lead to rage throughout the Islamic world.
Mightn't we ask ourselves, if acting like that hadn't brought about the recent terrorist attacks in France. No, because we so strongly believe in 'freedom of the press'. But like attacking protected groups isn't allowed, maybe we should be more careful what we publish about >2 billion Muslims.
Also it's one-sided, if even reasonable discussion isn't allowed, when considered 'impolitic'. (And they are trying to spread this 'correctness' to other lands!) ; It borders on insanity.
But then there is the further insanity of us taking it out, instead, on exactly the wrong groups, like the >2 Billion Muslims.
to be making fun of foreign leaders. to be publishing or making movies, that disparage people, say, of Muslim faith ?
It isn't very smart. It isn't nice.
Of course we know things published shouldn't have to pass any 'politeness' test. That is especially true, we could note parenthetically,
except where people are being 'impolitic' according to current mores ... what can't be talked about, at all, in the 'wrong' way.
Thus we mustn't speak disparagingly, or make movies, or write books, that say the 'wrong thing': ... as the recent fire chief in Atlanta did, and was then fired for doing.
Yet we are allowed to make silly movies about North Korea's 'dear leader', that are terribly hurtful, or write articles like recently in a Paris newspaper, that lead to rage throughout the Islamic world.
Mightn't we ask ourselves, if acting like that hadn't brought about the recent terrorist attacks in France. No, because we so strongly believe in 'freedom of the press'. But like attacking protected groups isn't allowed, maybe we should be more careful what we publish about >2 billion Muslims.
Also it's one-sided, if even reasonable discussion isn't allowed, when considered 'impolitic'. (And they are trying to spread this 'correctness' to other lands!) ; It borders on insanity.
But then there is the further insanity of us taking it out, instead, on exactly the wrong groups, like the >2 Billion Muslims.
1
Hindus killing Christians, Christens killing abortion doctors, rampaging Buddhists monks killing Muslims, Muslims and Christens attacking gays and atheists, Christians killing Muslims and vice versa. As long as society accepts that religion is not subject to scrutiny and logic there will be fringe elements will define god’s will and attack those who do not believe in their brand of religion. The fundamental problem is belief that our God makes us right. The Humanists are the only ones moral enough to insist god is insignificant compared to human rights. Expressing this belief would get me imprisoned or killed in too many place in the world.
7
Humans enter into conflicts for reasons which have nothing to do with religion: social class, kinship status, economic status, ethnicity, language, geography, subsistence mode, nationality, etc. Religion may make it worse but humans seem capable of war for many different reasons
When we all have Freedom FROM Religion, the world will be a happier safer place.
1
In Kristof's world, no one understands the real Islam but apologists for its tolerance of terrorism. In my experience, those who understand Islam and the Middle East the best hail from the ranks of conservatives. I rarely encounter Westerners who are both fluent in Arabic and have lived for long stretches the Middle East who aren't very critical of the religion and its direction. Our policy towards both Islam and the Middle East should what it generally was before the spectacular failures of Bush and Cheney, narrowly self-interested and largely dismissive. If you want to worry about what the Muslim world thinks, limit yourself to India and Indonesia.
10
Unlike Westerners who would never send their child to attend anything remotely Muslim, up until the 90s Muslims from Pakistan happily sent their kids to Christian schools. Today many of our Christians are on the run and the Christian schools are in grave danger of closing. What happened? Answer – WAR! The nonstop war ever since Pakistan made the horrible horrible mistake of siding with US in its jihad against the Soviet Union. It was Afghan war that brought Wahhabism to a very Sufi Pakistan. It was Afghan war that stole young boys from many poor villages to be brainwashed with sick ideology and sacrificed for the cause. It was Afghan war that gave rise to the modern world's first jihadist armed force that brought one superpower to its knees leaving US as the sole superpower. The United States armed and funded this army......and then just walk away after it delivered. Today every jihadist faction has some connection with Af-Pak region, and every one of these factions is Wahhabi. The head quarters of Wahhabism is Saudi Arabia. So for the sake of world peace I request United Nations to impose sanctions on the kingdom of Saudi Arabia to stop the flow of Wahhabism and cash to extremists. And for the sake of justice I request United States to pay all the families whose sons died fighting American jihad in Afghanistan. Pres. Reagan had looked straight into the camera and promised the people of Afghanistan that he would rebuild their country afterwards.
9
Nick, I have respected your thoughtfulness through all these years, but it comes a time when a conclusion has to be drawn and some actions cannot be ignored but seen as part of an intrinsic cultural make up.
Please, be honest with yourself and with us. Look at Tom Friedman's column.
Again, please be sincere with us.
Please, be honest with yourself and with us. Look at Tom Friedman's column.
Again, please be sincere with us.
14
Honestly, hatred and fear and stereotypes lead only to foolishness. Following the lead of Netanyahu leads only over a cliff.
Effective defense of ourselves and our interests begins with understanding, knowledge is power.
Effective defense of ourselves and our interests begins with understanding, knowledge is power.
Sure, let's tell the Saudi royals and their Wahabi enforcers just what we think of their persecuting a moderate, thoughtful fellow Muslim. Given the way our various administrations, be they Republicrat or Demopublican (No, these aren't typos - I'm trying to make a point here,), have been playing footsie with these characters, I'm expecting a blizzard in San Juan first. (Then again, if that most improbable event were to occur, at least the folks there would be free to build snowmen without fearing a charge of blasphemy. Unlike Saudiland.)
This is one time when, most definitely, oil's NOT well.
This is one time when, most definitely, oil's NOT well.
5
The examples of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are apropos, as they have a push/pull relationship with the U.S., and with terrorist organizations. Sure the Saudis are against Al Qaeda and I.S., but wink when their citizens support them financially. There are, and will be, brave Muslims living in those, and similar, countries calling for reforms and tolerance, but I wonder if many more moderate believers are internally conflicted. Some may be proud of terrorists for "standing up" for Islam and the Prophet, yet ashamed of the carnage. Many others risk being labeled infidels if they speak out against the extremists. Yet, many approve of anti-Semitism and "punishing" Jews for living in or being pro-Israel, and for their historical refusal to adopt Islam. Don't forget: while Mohammed respected certain things about the Jewish faith, borrowing ideas and behaviors from Judaism, he never forgave the Jewish rejection of his new religion, nor did many of his followers. If that smacks of the old European Christian anti-Judaism and the ensuing religiously inspired bloody campaigns against Jews for centuries, the difference is today's extremist Muslims see no obstacles in killing Jews. Or an international consensus stopping the campaign to eliminate the persona of Jewishness itself-the state of Israel.
4
When will we see a concerted push for an honest public examination of this country's relationship with Saudi Arabia? It's been begging since 9/11 and the Bush administration's shielding of the Saudis; our government continues to hide findings of the various investigating panels that are said to confirm direct Saudi complicity. As the writer says, Saudi Arabia continues to fund the worst extremist teachings in madrasas and now they're flogging a journalist in public for liberal blogging...when does the US do the right thing??
49
The Saudis are savages, human rights' abusers in the name of a loving god; what an outrage, faith-based violence all over again. And Saudi Arabia is an ally of the United States? How is that even possible? Could oil justify our allegiance to a hypocritical stance? Is the West still contributing to Muslims' feeling of being exploited or not being paid attention, ignored? Is that why, precisely in the name of Islam, all this carnage occurs? At this point in time, for many people, this a muslim problem, and it is the muslims that need to put order in their 'house'. A few voices of dissent can be heard but the vast majority seem content by just sitting idle... instead of a major sustained effort towards a paradigm.
6
After I wrote last week that the world should resist that impulse to smear all Muslims, I was denounced by Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity on Fox News and called an “ink-stained coward” by The Weekly Standard."
Lucky you, Nick. I think that being denounced by Hannity, O'Reilly, or Fox News in general should be worn as a badge of honor. The Weekly Standard is just another neocon rag that I would like to someday be denounced by.
As for Raif Badawi he truly got a raw deal, including the evolving sentence and his lawyer being sentenced to 15 years in prison. Saui Arabia is a tough place to be a human rights lawyer or an activist. While the country is taking steps towards moderation the current cruel criminal system still operates business as usual. I would encourage anyone to sign the Amnesty International petition online. Only a royal decree would save Raif. Court appeals increased his sentence and prescribed medieval punishment.
Lucky you, Nick. I think that being denounced by Hannity, O'Reilly, or Fox News in general should be worn as a badge of honor. The Weekly Standard is just another neocon rag that I would like to someday be denounced by.
As for Raif Badawi he truly got a raw deal, including the evolving sentence and his lawyer being sentenced to 15 years in prison. Saui Arabia is a tough place to be a human rights lawyer or an activist. While the country is taking steps towards moderation the current cruel criminal system still operates business as usual. I would encourage anyone to sign the Amnesty International petition online. Only a royal decree would save Raif. Court appeals increased his sentence and prescribed medieval punishment.
8
And how do you suggest that these moderates be supported?
Until political and/or diplomatic pressure is used, particularly applied by the US and West, nothing will happen to improve the situation, and indeed nothing does. Raif Badawi is still being flogged. Christians are still persecuted and jailed in Pakistan and other Muslim countries and there is very little public noise about it.
And just FYI, Mr. Krisatof, Leviticus 24:15-16 is not as simple as you state. 24:15 says that one who curses God shall bear his sin. 24:16 states that one who uses the name of God (nokev-pronounces) to curse shall be put to death. Firstly none of this is blasphemy in the sense that you use it. Secondly, unlike Islam, the Torah alone never served as a judicial code but the Written Law was accompanied by the Oral Law and the rabbis added so many restriction to these verses that they could never be applied (apart from the story in Leviticus itself which serves as the "legal precedent) , which might explain why "blasphemy" in the modern sense is actually quite common among Jews. The ensuing theological battles usually take place in the realm of words and insults.
Until political and/or diplomatic pressure is used, particularly applied by the US and West, nothing will happen to improve the situation, and indeed nothing does. Raif Badawi is still being flogged. Christians are still persecuted and jailed in Pakistan and other Muslim countries and there is very little public noise about it.
And just FYI, Mr. Krisatof, Leviticus 24:15-16 is not as simple as you state. 24:15 says that one who curses God shall bear his sin. 24:16 states that one who uses the name of God (nokev-pronounces) to curse shall be put to death. Firstly none of this is blasphemy in the sense that you use it. Secondly, unlike Islam, the Torah alone never served as a judicial code but the Written Law was accompanied by the Oral Law and the rabbis added so many restriction to these verses that they could never be applied (apart from the story in Leviticus itself which serves as the "legal precedent) , which might explain why "blasphemy" in the modern sense is actually quite common among Jews. The ensuing theological battles usually take place in the realm of words and insults.
5
People read the same Bible passages and get different answers? Shock! Surprise!
As always, Nick Kristof's clear headedness, decency, compassion and comprehensive research inform his journalism and advocacy.
1
A superb piece by Mr .Kristoff.It makes you think that with friends like the Saudis and the Pakistanis,who needs enemies.The sissy attitude of our nation(and others) to a country and a region that funds Islamic extremism throughout the world is baffling,no doubt helped by our oil companies cozy relationship with the region.The doctrine of don't rock the boat has to stop somewhere.Poor Mr. Badawi, simpathy is not forthcoming any time soon.
1
Saudi Arabia is not our "ally". They are just a small fief where we pay off the local gangsters to keep the pumps running. They then pay off our politicians with our money so they will pretend not to notice that the 9/11 terrorists were almost all Saudis.
95
The Saudis, our friends, are also heavily invested in the Carlyle Group. Google the Carlyle Group and read all you can find. They are the Bushes, James Baker, the Saudis and others. The Bushes are hand in hand with the Saudis in the business of the iron triangle..(war profiteering, banks and politics). The Carlyle Group was the private company that owned Booz Allen form whom Ed Snowden worked in the spying business (looking to find another way to create more war). The Saudis promote and fund groups that help to ensure never-ending war. Google them. The Saudis are not the friends of average Americans. Remember the photo of Bush hold hands with the Saudi Prince? We should have NO dealings with the Saudis.
14
Bev, alas we are all in in together. We are so intertwined, there is no pure strain, ever. It is mean to be a web, ever expanding, with invisible threads binding us all. In that web we appear together, timelessly, space and distance being immaterial.
2
It's fundamentally driven by dogma and backward looking support for this theology. In Kosovo they still do honour killings, and drive out Christian Serbs, Montenegrins, etc. Same is true in Saudi, Pakistan, Egypt, etc... Across all Islamic focused countries.
In most cases commerce, and self interest seems to cross these differences than any moralistic arguments or liberal democratic value systems. See Saudi, China, Etc, and our close trade relations with each.
We're a funny existence- humans!
In most cases commerce, and self interest seems to cross these differences than any moralistic arguments or liberal democratic value systems. See Saudi, China, Etc, and our close trade relations with each.
We're a funny existence- humans!
5
Thanks Nick. Women hold up half the sky - but as usual, there is not one in this photograph from Yemen - the public world there is for males only. 15 of the 19 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens - but has there ever been a dialog about this by our good allies? Any soul searching over there about why that was? I guess it's more important to address the problem of Driving While Female.
9
In Munich in 1943 a group of students named the White Rose penned a pamphlet against nazism. They were quickly arrested and beheaded. British bombers dropped thousands of copies of the very pamphlet over Germany in July of 1943. Looking for new uses of drones? We rule the skies; why not letting rain millions of the peaceful quotes of the Koran from the skies—with or without pens!
Karl Berger M.D.
(Who lived in Munich at the age of 2 when words came raining down )
Karl Berger M.D.
(Who lived in Munich at the age of 2 when words came raining down )
4
We condemn ISIS for committing atrocities. We say and do nothing when Saudi Arabia does the same thing.
11
Who do you think is funding ISIS?
13
I have been a hard core liberal my entire life. I am in my mid 60s. I have come to believe that moderate Islam is an oxymoron. These denizens of the Islamic world come to the west not to life the life that the west offers.
When they get here they want everyone to adjust for them whilst they try to recreate the political and religious sewers they left behind. If they are not willing to accept western culture and civilization, they know where the airport is. I have come to believe that Islam and the west are incompatible.
When they get here they want everyone to adjust for them whilst they try to recreate the political and religious sewers they left behind. If they are not willing to accept western culture and civilization, they know where the airport is. I have come to believe that Islam and the west are incompatible.
42
"I have come to believe that moderate Islam is an oxymoron."
If that were true, there would be over a billion terrorists in the world, and most of us would be dead from it already.
If that were true, there would be over a billion terrorists in the world, and most of us would be dead from it already.
Lassan Bathily, the supermarket worker who hid cutomers s in the cooler and took the freight elevator to the roof to escape, is a hero. He is also righteous gentile- is Bibi acknowledging this? Does he also deserve the Legion of Honor from the French government? he was after all a civilian , who risked his lfie to save others , and was kept in handcuffs for his pains . Where is the parade for this brave and noble young man?
We keep calling for moderate Muslims to speak out. We should consider Ahmad Merabet and Mr. Bassily as role models for ALL young people . I would think an idealistic person of any faith would aspire to their examples, not that of someone who shot shoppers in the market, or murdered journalists for tasteless satire .
We keep calling for moderate Muslims to speak out. We should consider Ahmad Merabet and Mr. Bassily as role models for ALL young people . I would think an idealistic person of any faith would aspire to their examples, not that of someone who shot shoppers in the market, or murdered journalists for tasteless satire .
3
It is hard to believe that Saudi Arabia, where the expression "First Saturday, then Sunday" is still used will ever change. The Royal family just has too much vested in the current system which is balanced on the strong--too strong-- pillars of oil and hatred. They see no downside to continuing and a big downside for allowing even small changes. It is sad as the Muslims who have not been poisoned by a lifetime of being taught hatred are in the main such wonderful people. But I suppose that at the end of the day, money/oil talks too strongly even in our country.
1
Hi Nicholas Krisof,
Your piece of work seems to be contradicting itself in some points. First, Raif Badawi's case, there is no lashing as you said and it is in the right of any government to arrest anyone who wants to spread fear and undermine security.
Second, you said "The kingdom oppresses Shiites, funds extremist Wahhabi madrassas across the Islamic world and last month referred two women to its antiterrorism courts — for driving cars." This is totally misleading the American people. Why do not you go and ask the Shiites in Saudi Arabia before you shed your opinion. It is true that women are not allowed to drive, but your words on referring them to antitrrrorism courts is not true. Saudi Arabia do not fund any body who is engaged in terrorism . Saudi Arabia was and still is a victim of terrorism for the last 20 yrs.
"To be blunt, Saudi Arabia legitimizes Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance." you said. Give your READERS ANY PROOF. It seems to any average intelligent person that your are mixing issues just like an amateur cook who wants to be the chief of a big party in Hollywood.
Yet, I have to give you a credit when you mentioned FOX news and I even watched few nights ago in Riyadh a US ret. Lt. General who said that American should go and destroy Islam. This guy is so ignorant that he does not differentiate between Islam and Muslims. I really wonder how he reached this top rank. You mentioned GWB, but you did not mention 1 million Iraqis he killed.
Your piece of work seems to be contradicting itself in some points. First, Raif Badawi's case, there is no lashing as you said and it is in the right of any government to arrest anyone who wants to spread fear and undermine security.
Second, you said "The kingdom oppresses Shiites, funds extremist Wahhabi madrassas across the Islamic world and last month referred two women to its antiterrorism courts — for driving cars." This is totally misleading the American people. Why do not you go and ask the Shiites in Saudi Arabia before you shed your opinion. It is true that women are not allowed to drive, but your words on referring them to antitrrrorism courts is not true. Saudi Arabia do not fund any body who is engaged in terrorism . Saudi Arabia was and still is a victim of terrorism for the last 20 yrs.
"To be blunt, Saudi Arabia legitimizes Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance." you said. Give your READERS ANY PROOF. It seems to any average intelligent person that your are mixing issues just like an amateur cook who wants to be the chief of a big party in Hollywood.
Yet, I have to give you a credit when you mentioned FOX news and I even watched few nights ago in Riyadh a US ret. Lt. General who said that American should go and destroy Islam. This guy is so ignorant that he does not differentiate between Islam and Muslims. I really wonder how he reached this top rank. You mentioned GWB, but you did not mention 1 million Iraqis he killed.
Saudi Arabia do not fund any body who is engaged in terrorism
***
No, you just fund the education of future terrorists, ensuring their mindset is such that Westerners become their enemies and targets of their violence.
***
No, you just fund the education of future terrorists, ensuring their mindset is such that Westerners become their enemies and targets of their violence.
9
As Sam Harris explained to you, it is not Islamaphobia to say that Islam has bad ideas and that these bad ideas cause people to commit horrific crimes. True, not all Muslims are bad. But I don't see how you can deny that this religion motivates people to commit horrific crimes. You don't have to believe me- they will tell you themselves.
12
Kristof says, "Saudi Arabia could play a leadership role in Islam." No, it cannot. It can’t reform because it’s the active center of moral and political rot. The Saudi kings spread a version of religion which taught/inspired the Taliban, al-Qaeda and half a dozen other women hating bigoted gangs. Its forces invaded Bahrain, brought fanatics to Lebanon, gave billions to support the bloody coup government in Egypt, and along with Qatar and Turkey turned the Syrian revolution into a sectarian civil war. The practice of beheadings, that so repulse the world in Iraq/Syria, are just a coarser version of the punishment that is often handed out by the kingdom (over 80 beheadings in 2014 reported by the AP). People face the death penalty for "crimes" such as sorcery and apostasy. In 2013 a Saudi man was sentenced to by paralyzed for injuring his friend.
The kingdom is the oldest Middle East ally of the U.S. government and its grotesque practices are forgiven by our power elite because of its aid to the interests of our 1%, the oil industry and lately the Israeli government. For these reasons the monarchy is sanctified as “moderate”. Anyone honestly horrified by the massacre in Paris or the Boko Haram butchery in Nigeria should demand the Obama Administration get at the root of the extremism and cancel its $60 billion arms deal with the Kingdom of Horrors. More about the kingdom in this collection of articles: http://www.thestruggle.org/archive_Saudi.htm
The kingdom is the oldest Middle East ally of the U.S. government and its grotesque practices are forgiven by our power elite because of its aid to the interests of our 1%, the oil industry and lately the Israeli government. For these reasons the monarchy is sanctified as “moderate”. Anyone honestly horrified by the massacre in Paris or the Boko Haram butchery in Nigeria should demand the Obama Administration get at the root of the extremism and cancel its $60 billion arms deal with the Kingdom of Horrors. More about the kingdom in this collection of articles: http://www.thestruggle.org/archive_Saudi.htm
17
It's odd how roles have changed over the centuries. In the Middle Ages, the Muslim world was known for its tolerance, its science, and its literature, whereas European Christianity was notoriously intolerant, comparatively backward, and all too willing to engage in militant action against the Muslims: the crusades.
In the meantime, the Western world has grown up, but the Muslim one has regressed. It must be depressing to many Muslims to realize that a once great society has been reduced to such a level of intolerance and violence.
One causative factor in this change was the colonialism that was visited by the Western powers on this region, especially after World War I and the demise of the Ottoman Empire. The area has been systematically exploited in the name of oil, with ruthless kings and dictators propped up by the West as long as they delivered oil to us. And we've never stopped our meddling in the area. At first it was primarily the British, now it's the U.S. The people of the region have much to resent about us and our constant interference in their lives. Resorting to Islamic fundamentalism and to violence is at least partly a response to our exploitation at their expense.
In the meantime, the Western world has grown up, but the Muslim one has regressed. It must be depressing to many Muslims to realize that a once great society has been reduced to such a level of intolerance and violence.
One causative factor in this change was the colonialism that was visited by the Western powers on this region, especially after World War I and the demise of the Ottoman Empire. The area has been systematically exploited in the name of oil, with ruthless kings and dictators propped up by the West as long as they delivered oil to us. And we've never stopped our meddling in the area. At first it was primarily the British, now it's the U.S. The people of the region have much to resent about us and our constant interference in their lives. Resorting to Islamic fundamentalism and to violence is at least partly a response to our exploitation at their expense.
1
Come on now, Mr Kristof. While the young Muslim man who hid the Jewish supermarket shoppers in the freezer certainly used his wits and acted heroically, it's more than a bit disingenuous to suggest he "risked his life to save seven Jews."
The young man's life was already at the highest risk when his fellow Muslims invaded the market. It's not obvious that he placed his life at any greater risk by taking the Jewish shoppers with him when he hid in the cold storage room.
Had the terrorists found him, they would have killed him regardless of whether he was alone or huddled with the other shoppers. A more accurate statement would be that he was able to save his own life and that of seven Jews.
In fact, when the young man later escaped from the room, he may have placed the shoppers (who refused to escape with him and remained behind) at an increased risk. But fortunately, the terrorists remained unaware of his escape, and both he and the shoppers survived.
That said, the young man certainly deserves a medal for his quick thinking, human decency and bravery. I hope the French reward him with the highest honors.
The young man's life was already at the highest risk when his fellow Muslims invaded the market. It's not obvious that he placed his life at any greater risk by taking the Jewish shoppers with him when he hid in the cold storage room.
Had the terrorists found him, they would have killed him regardless of whether he was alone or huddled with the other shoppers. A more accurate statement would be that he was able to save his own life and that of seven Jews.
In fact, when the young man later escaped from the room, he may have placed the shoppers (who refused to escape with him and remained behind) at an increased risk. But fortunately, the terrorists remained unaware of his escape, and both he and the shoppers survived.
That said, the young man certainly deserves a medal for his quick thinking, human decency and bravery. I hope the French reward him with the highest honors.
6
Interesting that you attack Fox and Bush, but offer only silence on Obama's killing of Muslim innocents by unmanned drones patrolling over countries we are not at war with. Interesting.
3
Sorry Nick, but if ever there was a lost cause, this is it. What's the difference between Iran's Theocracy, Isis, and Saudi Arabia? They are all intolerant, all encourage hatred against other religions, all persecute religious minorities, using torture, violence, and totalitarian control of free-speech. A rogue's gallery, if you ask me, and more supposedly "moderate" states like Pakistan are mirroring the same fanaticism and intolerance. Our big mistake is in not getting off our addiction to oil. We should not be beholden to these people.
59
We need to pay attention to Pakistan because it is a nuclear power. Perhaps our greatest threat is those weapons in the hands of IS. Now let's check out who funds IS.
4
If there is a difference between murdering cartoonists and flogging bloggers it is only one of degree. The purpose in both cases is the same: to prohibit the free expression of ideas. The Saudi government is no better than the terriosts who committed the atrocities in France and shame on the United States for calling such barbarians allies! Right thinking people the world over need to stop turning the blind eye of convenience and political correctness on the actions of extremists of any stripe: religious, ethnic, political or otherwise.
6
"Let’s support moderates in the Islamic world who are pushing for change — and being punished for it. "
Let's support moderate American gop politicians who might push for change and fear punishment, criticism, and withholding of funding for their elections. Find whatever positive examples exist among the rabid fanatical right wing GOP, and strengthen them. Show how a moderate will hurt us less than the extremists.
Let's support moderate American gop politicians who might push for change and fear punishment, criticism, and withholding of funding for their elections. Find whatever positive examples exist among the rabid fanatical right wing GOP, and strengthen them. Show how a moderate will hurt us less than the extremists.
Why the US considers Saudi Arabia an ally is beyond me. Many jihadi terrorist organizations have Sunni Salafist Wahabist roots. It's unfortunate for the rest of the world that the Wahabist sect has access to so much oil money and can afford to spread their vile version of Islam around the world.
9
Yes Mr. Kristof, but Mr. Netanyahu has been warning you for years about people like these, but "progressives" like yourself have refused to listen to him.
9
…Nick, I really appreciate the sensitivity you attempting to bring to this most recent killing of innocents by terrorist who claim to be acting in the name of Islam. However, I am becoming convinced that the heaviest burden of sorting out who is who, will belong to the larger Muslim community…otherwise, the worst of all of humanity may once again rear its ugly heads...
3
You found one Muslim reformer who dared speak out and was brutally punished for it by
Our friends,the Saudis.
Yet time after time,every appalling attack is met inevitably with a 'spokesman'reading from
What seems to be a prepared script condemning the latest outrage.
Where are the vast majority of Muslim leaders who sit silently in Mosques,while the most
Vile hatred is being preached,or do nothing while their children are reading' textbooks'
Filled with virulent anti semitism and hatred of the American Satan?
Let them speak out bravely all year long;then people of good will would take their
'Condemnations and Condolences more seriously.
Our friends,the Saudis.
Yet time after time,every appalling attack is met inevitably with a 'spokesman'reading from
What seems to be a prepared script condemning the latest outrage.
Where are the vast majority of Muslim leaders who sit silently in Mosques,while the most
Vile hatred is being preached,or do nothing while their children are reading' textbooks'
Filled with virulent anti semitism and hatred of the American Satan?
Let them speak out bravely all year long;then people of good will would take their
'Condemnations and Condolences more seriously.
"Fighting over religion is like fighting over who has the best imaginary friend".
Yassir Arafat
Yassir Arafat
12
Amen. religion is a manufactured, concocted thing. the messiahs, messengers, repeatedly appear and say the same thing, we are all one, we are creatures of the same essence. Yet we glorify the messenger or worse, shoot him or her and we collectively forget the message.
5
We should clandestinely encourage ISIS to turn its attention towards Saudi Arabia. The Saudis will either fight these conservatives and deal with those of their citizens who are sympathetic to the ISIS agenda, or they will go over to the conservatives, in which case we encourage other Middle East powers to take them out.
6
That would be like biting the hand that feeds you, isn't it? However, this category of mercenary terrorists would not only bite your hand, but they would chew on your liver after beheading you.
So the lesson not only for Saudi Arabia or Qatar, but any countries that think they can use terrorists to do their dirty work, and rest assured afterwards, do not understand how things work in mercenary circles. The U.S. is just as complicit in developing, training, and arming ISIS.
So the lesson not only for Saudi Arabia or Qatar, but any countries that think they can use terrorists to do their dirty work, and rest assured afterwards, do not understand how things work in mercenary circles. The U.S. is just as complicit in developing, training, and arming ISIS.
5
That bizarre. Where are you getting 'conservative' from in the article? . . . oh, wait, this is a distraction tactic designed to divert attention from how much liberals and democrats, through the twice elected Obama, kiss up to the Saudis (but have no trouble blowing off France): "Saudi Arabia is aggrieved with the US and the president will use his visit to assure the Kingdom that he is not neglecting them," TheGuardian - Friday 28 March 2014 02.59 EDT
1
I think one of the points of this article is that the Saudis have already "gone over to the conservatives," in fact they invented Islam. That poor man--how in the world could anyone, any government, any imam--countenance such cruelty? Barbaric.
2
I keep wondering how many of our conservative Christian lawmakers- or the conservative Christians who elect them- are aware of the fact that churches are not permitted to operate in Saudi Arabia. I mean if our government were to outlaw Islam and shut down every mosque in the country would the Saudis have any basis on which to complain? Yes, I'm aware that the Kingdom is the guardian of the holy sites of Mecca and Medina but does that require or justify the circumvention of all other forms of worship? With the abundance of oil here and elsewhere I have to wonder why we continue to cozy up to the House of Saud and regard these people as our indispensible allies. Oh, wait!: our homegrown petroleum czars have invested their own funds in Saudi oil. Well, we can't allow them to lose their shirts can we? Not even if our own security is imperiled by the money that's skimmed off the top and passed along to those Wahhabi clerics. Absolutely shameful.
234
While Islamic radicalism is no doubt one of the pre-eminent concerns of our day, so are Isis, Iranian adventurism, and Russian aggression. Oil politics remain an important tool. Let's not forget that fracking and Saudi oil production and having a major effect on our 'other' avowed enemies.
1
Congratulations Stu. You finally found a problem in the Middle East that you couldn't automatically blame on Israel.
6
@sharon5101: My opposition to the Israeli government is essentially confined to the Palestinian situation which was not the subject of Mr. Kristof's piece. If you've read my comments over the years you'd know that I'm no more impressed by the Arab regimes in the Middle East than I am by the Likudniks.
3
This is a wonderfully well-balanced and thoughful article. It was a delight to read.
It is also a warning to us, that after all we've seen and heard on this, well balanced and thoughtful like this is so rare this is the first I've seen it.
What are WE becoming?
It is also a warning to us, that after all we've seen and heard on this, well balanced and thoughtful like this is so rare this is the first I've seen it.
What are WE becoming?
70
A delight to read??? Hey Mark, get with the program already, Islam is completely inflexible to change. Islam does not tolerate dissent. The slightest deviation is met with severe punishment. The Koran is never to be challenged because every word is true. The mullahs, imans, and anytollahs are never to be questioned. This man should consider himself lucky he was lashed instead of being beheaded.
10
"Islam is completely inflexible to change. Islam does not tolerate dissent. The slightest deviation is met with severe punishment."
Islam is a wide variety of things among over 1.5 billion people in a third of the world's countries. Saudi Arabia is inflexible, at the very heart of reactionary inflexibility. That is not all Muslims, nor a majority, nor even a large minority. There are more Muslims just in India than all those who follow the Saudi teachings.
Islam is a wide variety of things among over 1.5 billion people in a third of the world's countries. Saudi Arabia is inflexible, at the very heart of reactionary inflexibility. That is not all Muslims, nor a majority, nor even a large minority. There are more Muslims just in India than all those who follow the Saudi teachings.
3
Nick, I'd be all for breaking off diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia, the source of much of the inspiration and funding for Islamic terrorism, over this Badawi abomination; but even if I intended to do so, I'd nonetheless feel a need to first explain to the Saudis the difference between what they're doing and what Dick Chaney had the CIA doing during the last Republican administration - and I'm not sure that I could do that.
Nonetheless, with 'allies' like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, nations that were both deeply implicated in 9/11 (unlike Iraq or Iran) and yet were a given a "get out of jail free card" by the previous and current administrations, we're certain to lose the war against Islamic extremism.
Instead of applying the whip to brave reformers like Badawi, the western-leaning members of the Royal Family need to instead start cracking it over the heads of their medieval-leaning relations - lest liberals like myself begin imagining a scenario where the United States and Canada negotiate a national security pact that would guarantee that every drop of Canadian shale is offered first for sale in North America, while an embargo is put in place against petroleum originating on the Arabian peninsula - our established oil interests in that nation be damned. All it will take for this scenario to become plausible is a couple of additional terrorists attacks in the west. The ball is now in the Saudi's court.
Nation first.
Nonetheless, with 'allies' like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, nations that were both deeply implicated in 9/11 (unlike Iraq or Iran) and yet were a given a "get out of jail free card" by the previous and current administrations, we're certain to lose the war against Islamic extremism.
Instead of applying the whip to brave reformers like Badawi, the western-leaning members of the Royal Family need to instead start cracking it over the heads of their medieval-leaning relations - lest liberals like myself begin imagining a scenario where the United States and Canada negotiate a national security pact that would guarantee that every drop of Canadian shale is offered first for sale in North America, while an embargo is put in place against petroleum originating on the Arabian peninsula - our established oil interests in that nation be damned. All it will take for this scenario to become plausible is a couple of additional terrorists attacks in the west. The ball is now in the Saudi's court.
Nation first.
110
" ...I'd nonetheless feel a need to first explain to the Saudis the difference between what they're doing and what Dick Chaney had the CIA doing during the last Republican administration - and I'm not sure that I could do that."
First of all the guy's name, I think, is spelled "Cheney."
Second of all, as disgusting as the practices the CIA and their "contractors" engaged in they were not explicitly public demonstrations of punishment.
What the Saudis are doing to this guy is a public traumatic physical display for saying or doing something the regime disagrees with.
Your notion about north american oil and embargoes against any other is, as I am quite sure you know, completely absurd. The production, supply and distribution of petroleum is controlled by a global market. There is no going back, there are just fluctuations to be expected.
But good luck.
- A side note: It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of people who either choose to watch this or choose not to, and why. As long as those thoughts are concise. The blasphemy thing is getting stale at this point.
First of all the guy's name, I think, is spelled "Cheney."
Second of all, as disgusting as the practices the CIA and their "contractors" engaged in they were not explicitly public demonstrations of punishment.
What the Saudis are doing to this guy is a public traumatic physical display for saying or doing something the regime disagrees with.
Your notion about north american oil and embargoes against any other is, as I am quite sure you know, completely absurd. The production, supply and distribution of petroleum is controlled by a global market. There is no going back, there are just fluctuations to be expected.
But good luck.
- A side note: It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of people who either choose to watch this or choose not to, and why. As long as those thoughts are concise. The blasphemy thing is getting stale at this point.
2
However Cheney's name is spelled, he's still a pariah whose current liberty makes America look ridiculous when attempting to challenge other nations on their mistreatment of either dissidents or prisoners.
As regards the petroleum issue, what's absurd is going to war in Iraq in an effort send to a message to bad actors throughout the Muslim world, while giving Saudi Arabia a pass on their role in funding and inspiring Islamic fundamentalism. At some point, the west is going to have to take a principled stand against these enablers of disorder across the planet - and the most feasible way to do this might be to hit them in their wallets.
Moreover, In both the US and Canada, there is a legal concept called, alternately, eminent domain or expropriation - allowing the government to take possession of private property if it serves a national interest. Given that much of these oil sands are apparently owned by the Koch brothers, I would be tickled pink if the Canadians took control of them for use as I describe in the my original proposal - especially if the Canadians ever expected to get their pipeline approved.
At some point, a civilization has to put its survival above the interests of profiteers.
As regards the petroleum issue, what's absurd is going to war in Iraq in an effort send to a message to bad actors throughout the Muslim world, while giving Saudi Arabia a pass on their role in funding and inspiring Islamic fundamentalism. At some point, the west is going to have to take a principled stand against these enablers of disorder across the planet - and the most feasible way to do this might be to hit them in their wallets.
Moreover, In both the US and Canada, there is a legal concept called, alternately, eminent domain or expropriation - allowing the government to take possession of private property if it serves a national interest. Given that much of these oil sands are apparently owned by the Koch brothers, I would be tickled pink if the Canadians took control of them for use as I describe in the my original proposal - especially if the Canadians ever expected to get their pipeline approved.
At some point, a civilization has to put its survival above the interests of profiteers.
4
The comparison to being Irish is specious—Islam is not an ethnicity, but a religion. Organizations do have a responsibility to condemn heinous acts committed by their members, especially when members explicitly attribute their actions to the group and its ideology. Just try to imagine Kristof's column if, say, Tea Partiers were killing Muslim women and children in the name of Tea Party groups and the groups not only refused to excommunicate the killers or condemn their actions, but then spent the bulk of their energy whining about the unfairness of anyone critiquing their group as a whole.
The idea that it's the Judeo-Christian world that "decrees death for blasphemy" is laughable. Who cares what Leviticus says, or even that some Saudi "liberal" can cite arguments against the heinous punishments that are now being visited upon him for—blasphemy. Kristof walks a dangerous path when he doesn't argue against Sharia law—but in favor of it when the interpretation suits him.
Get real. And write something original—the Op-Ed page reads like a news aggregator.