I have to agree with Todd, though at least at the Community College where I work, remedial work is needed by half of the students. Most are unmotivated, having come from the trophy kid world where they did not work hard in high school and have no plan for a life, a job or a career. A good percent are addicts and drop out before completing even a semester. Many earn inflated grades but cannot demonstrate a rigor of thinking or a competence of doing. Community college helps the motivated gets the basics done at a lower price, but how many go on to complete a BS or a BA which is more likely the degree that is needed? And how many with those 4 year degrees actually get good jobs? This is a noble idea but the community college grad will not go to a top tier school or get an internship at the best business. We need to fix elementary and high school education before we throw money at something that does not guarantee success in life.
I agree with the column, but why can't the states pay for this? Right now the states and municipalities are paying for almost all of the cost of K-12 with a little help from the federal government. The states are already paying for about a third of the cost of all public colleges and universities including junior and community colleges. The other two thirds comes from tuition and endowments. It would seem to me that any state would pay more if they believed that they were going to get a $3.50 tax revenue payback for every $1.00 in tax dollar spent. It would also hold true that by having the states and municipalities implement and pay for this, they would do so more efficiently than at a national level. We are not building an Interstate highway here.
I saw on one comment stream discussing this that we should call it "Cash for Flunkers."
2
Did you ever notice how liberal columnists or editorial boards quote savings garnered by social spending? The amounts are usually incredible; such as $3.50 for every dollar spent on one particular program. My question is simply this; since we have spent ourselves broke to the point of 18 trillion dollars, when do the benefits materialize? Why don't we just stop trying to have others pay for someone's college education. Methinks that a hard earned education will yield better results than one "given" away!
7
Dear New York Times: If the state of New York would like community college to be free, then go for it. Why do you keep insisting that the Federal Government involve themselves in regional decisions, best left up to the states. New York, go right ahead and pay for preschool and community college with your tax payer dollars. Those of us in Colorado have better things to do with our money.
6
Higher ed is more necessary today than it used to be, and not just because technology has advanced. It has to do with Loyalty and trust. In the past generation, firms hired clever liberal-arts grads and placed them in a 2 yr. training program where they became programmers, marketers, lab assistants, etc. Those novices were well paid and they felt obligated to stay and implicitly repay the firm for another 3 yrs., or so. College was NOT expected to prepare for the first job, rather, it was to provide the broad background for those who became CEOs.
Today, firms want their new hires to be ready for their first jobs -without further guidance. So, now firms want good first-hires, --then they wonder why there is so little CEO-material further down the line.
Today, firms want their new hires to be ready for their first jobs -without further guidance. So, now firms want good first-hires, --then they wonder why there is so little CEO-material further down the line.
2
After finishing active duty in the Navy in 1971, I enrolled at Wilbur Wright College of the City Colleges of Chicago. Tuition at the tax funded system was $20.00 per semester. As an indifferent high school student, I would not have qualified for the President's program. Going to school on the G.I. Bill, I began to take my education seriously, and encouraged and engaged by outstanding faculty, did well. I made the Dean's List in three full time semesters, was inducted into "Phi Theta Kappa," the Honors Fraternity of Community Colleges and had no problem transferring to the University of Illinois-Chicago, where I completed my Bachelors Degree, with Majors in Criminal Justice and Political Science at the end of 1974.
Despite some Times negative coverage of Community Colleges, particularly La Guardia College in NYC, my experience was considerably different. For those who did not do well in high school, Community Colleges provide the necessary "foot in the door" for those seeking higher education. Completing requirements for my Associates Degree took just over 18 months, in contrast to those requiring over three years. After my Associates and Bachelors Degrees, I went on to a Law Degree and a career as an Assistant Public Defender, from which I since retired.
Kudos to David Leonhardt for some excellent coverage of Community Colleges. Like Rodney Dangerfield, they get no respect, but without my Wilbur Wright College education, I would be nowhere where I am today!
Despite some Times negative coverage of Community Colleges, particularly La Guardia College in NYC, my experience was considerably different. For those who did not do well in high school, Community Colleges provide the necessary "foot in the door" for those seeking higher education. Completing requirements for my Associates Degree took just over 18 months, in contrast to those requiring over three years. After my Associates and Bachelors Degrees, I went on to a Law Degree and a career as an Assistant Public Defender, from which I since retired.
Kudos to David Leonhardt for some excellent coverage of Community Colleges. Like Rodney Dangerfield, they get no respect, but without my Wilbur Wright College education, I would be nowhere where I am today!
5
Yesterday Tom Hanks paeon to community college. Today an editorial slavishly supporting Obama's throw away idea of "free" community college meant to solely get him some positive press and to make him seem relative. We can expect one of his brain storms every week or so until he leaves office.
I ask again what I asked yesterday - how will it be paid for? That neither the NYT or Obama will address this question tells you that it is not a serious proposal. It is also an obvious effort to lower American's educational expectation seven years into the Obama administration at a time when the middle class is disappearing and wages have been flat or declining for more then 12 years. Another unaddressed question is how such a program would apply to Obama's millions of illegal immigrants. What would the effect of greater government control of education be? The average college freshman now reads at the 7th grade level after 12 or more years of public education. We have the lowest SAT's in history will "free" community college fix any of this?
Serious adults ask questions like that, pay their bills and don't pass them on to their children. Sorry for intruding any reality into the discussion.
I ask again what I asked yesterday - how will it be paid for? That neither the NYT or Obama will address this question tells you that it is not a serious proposal. It is also an obvious effort to lower American's educational expectation seven years into the Obama administration at a time when the middle class is disappearing and wages have been flat or declining for more then 12 years. Another unaddressed question is how such a program would apply to Obama's millions of illegal immigrants. What would the effect of greater government control of education be? The average college freshman now reads at the 7th grade level after 12 or more years of public education. We have the lowest SAT's in history will "free" community college fix any of this?
Serious adults ask questions like that, pay their bills and don't pass them on to their children. Sorry for intruding any reality into the discussion.
6
And why is "The American work force is less educated than it needs to be ...?" Could it be the American educational system's propensity to jettison proven teaching methods practiced for millennia for that which is weirdly insane & vacuous?
7
As a recently retired community college professor in Chicago, President Obama's proposal is music to my ears. My students worked extremely hard at a job and in their classroom because they wanted to transfer to a four year college and be the first ones in their family to earn a college degree. Also, textbooks were obscenely expensive. I hope Obama's idea does not get derailed into transforming these colleges into vocational institutes, as some are already proposing. That would increase our already existing social divide. Can't people understand that an educated society only strengthens our nation?
5
Seemingly unlimited funds to persuade college age kids to join the Military, how dare the President provide an alternative.
1
If education is what makes a country great, then any effort to enhance it should be welcome, irrespective of the source of its proposal. And Community Colleges seem a'perfect' place to start. Actually, if we were really smart, education would be free, or even paying people to study, as the payoff for 'working hard' while in school is a multiplier for the country's well-being. Science, Math, Literature, Music, the Arts, and Technology, to name a few, would be a new 'Renaissance' to carry us into the 22nd century and beyond with flying colors. Alas, we must first overcome petty interests and myopia.
2
Money doesn't grow on trees. And the U.S. has an $18 Trillion national debt and a $450 Billion annual deficit adding to that debt. And the third largest budget item is the annual interest payment on the debt (kept artificially low via current Fed policy of zero interest rates).
We need to focus on the crisis of 43% of American children being born out of wedlock and how this affects those kids educational opportunities - and attitudes.
We need to focus on the crisis of 43% of American children being born out of wedlock and how this affects those kids educational opportunities - and attitudes.
7
It is certainly better to make community college free for the first two years, since our government seems determined to give jobs away from Americans and fly in plane loads of H1B holders. It is difficult if not impossible to pay back the loans to get a degree in information or computer science when the only jobs you can find pay less than what they did in 1993. And Amy Klobuchar (a closet blue dog Dem) was demanding we "open the flood gates" to fill these jobs that no one can seem to find workers for. Amy - no one can find workers who will work as a project manager for $25 a hour - are you stupid?
2
I've read the entire collection of comments. It is amazing how equally divided they are between support of and condemnation of the President's proposal. Also amazing how many good, valid points have been made on both sides, along with the predictable but not very helpful knee-jerk responses following liberal/conservative playbooks. I think this just shows that this is a topic that needs a lot of serious consideration and reasoned debate. Where can that occur?
4
I like Tom Hanks went to community college. I did it at night, working full time, it took 2 years with no summer break. I waent on to get a BS/Bus. and three master degrees. I led a productive life. I am now retired but own my retirement to my education at the community college level.
2
Tom Hanks has penned an op-ed in today's Times, and wants you to believe that, because he got lucky with his 'useless' acting courses and by flunking astronomy that is 'all math', anyone would become as rich and as famous by opening the 'community college box of chocolates'.
People who go to community colleges are usually not good at STEM subjects and tend to choose majors that are unlikely to get them jobs. How many of those 15% who complete community colleges can find a well paying jobs after taking courses in acting, 'oral interpretation', journalism, and creating writing?
If the unemployment situation among the blacks is what Obama is thinking about, then community college education will burn a hole in our budget and make those graduates no better off than if they had not taken the community college courses. What we need is hands-on education in technical skills such as computer programming, motor mechanics, and paramedical training offered by professional training colleges such as deVry.
Enough said.
People who go to community colleges are usually not good at STEM subjects and tend to choose majors that are unlikely to get them jobs. How many of those 15% who complete community colleges can find a well paying jobs after taking courses in acting, 'oral interpretation', journalism, and creating writing?
If the unemployment situation among the blacks is what Obama is thinking about, then community college education will burn a hole in our budget and make those graduates no better off than if they had not taken the community college courses. What we need is hands-on education in technical skills such as computer programming, motor mechanics, and paramedical training offered by professional training colleges such as deVry.
Enough said.
11
As one of those poorly paid, overworked, adjunct instructors discussed here, I love the idea that my students can get a break on their tuition -- we are all struggling in my classroom.
But it's a bandaid on a huge gaping wound of our educational system. When my students show up with a high school diploma or GED -- but are basically functionally illiterate, have to take remedial course after remedial course just to get up to an 8th grade level, and have no common knowledge, no historical knowledge, and no critical thinking skills, it is a disgrace to our society. These young adults are not stupid or lazy -- we have failed them and they have been let down by a system that doesn't particularly care whether they get an education or not.
I hate to say it (because I can use the work), but until you reform K-12 to actually provide an education (rather than mindless testing that moves us toward privatization), helping our community college students seem like a waste of money.
But it's a bandaid on a huge gaping wound of our educational system. When my students show up with a high school diploma or GED -- but are basically functionally illiterate, have to take remedial course after remedial course just to get up to an 8th grade level, and have no common knowledge, no historical knowledge, and no critical thinking skills, it is a disgrace to our society. These young adults are not stupid or lazy -- we have failed them and they have been let down by a system that doesn't particularly care whether they get an education or not.
I hate to say it (because I can use the work), but until you reform K-12 to actually provide an education (rather than mindless testing that moves us toward privatization), helping our community college students seem like a waste of money.
13
Nothing is free and most community colleges have affordable tuition rates. This might make tuition free for students, but it will lead to higher taxes down the road for everyone else. Enrollment will skyrocket and as a result this will cost a lot more than projections. Unintended consequences will follow as discussed in todays Washington Post - one of which may be higher tuition at 4 year universities. Another interesting item from the post article is that the cost of this will not be uniform, with some states benefiting and others getting nailed. Liberals should wake up and face the realities of economic life - nothing is free.
6
My older brother and I went to college on the GI Bill. Currently I pay more in quarterly tax estimates in half a year than I received from the GI Bill. I believe that the taxpayers have been well compensated for my free loading ways. Grateful for the help, I am. Just sitting at keyboard whining about sky-rocketing enrollment with no statistical basis suggests that you, too, might be benefited by a stint in a community college. Higher ed financing and funding is pretty bad just now, but they're not raising tuition because community colleges are siphoning off too many students.
5
So much for the "conservative" argument that the more high-earning taxpayers you have, the less everyone pays in taxes.
You're missing the point, Dave: a college degree leads to higher earnings and thus higher tax revenues for federal and state governments -- and lower tax burden on each individual, even when taxed at lower rates. Isn't that core of current conservative economic philosophy?
The ideological problem you seem to have is that it's using the government as the engine. That's because it's not working in the private sector. "Trickle down" doesn't work when the folks with their hands on the tap are taking every last drop.
So let's try trickle-up.
You're missing the point, Dave: a college degree leads to higher earnings and thus higher tax revenues for federal and state governments -- and lower tax burden on each individual, even when taxed at lower rates. Isn't that core of current conservative economic philosophy?
The ideological problem you seem to have is that it's using the government as the engine. That's because it's not working in the private sector. "Trickle down" doesn't work when the folks with their hands on the tap are taking every last drop.
So let's try trickle-up.
2
Despite the admirable ideals underlying Obama's proposition, there are a number of issues with his plan. Having graduated from one of Chicago's City Colleges, I can say with a degree of certainty that access to community college is only one of the myriad problems with our post-secondary educational system. If Barack truly wants to reform education for minority and working class youth then these colleges need an equivalent increase in funding for administrative and counseling services. Registration at these schools is an absolute joke. Most students have incredibly limited access to advisors and drift through classes with no real plan. It's impossible to meet one on one with an advisor outside of the summer semester, when Pell grants are unavailable. At the school I attended there were approximately ten advisors for thousands of students. Most of the registration was handled by professors who had no training in what they were required to do. Furthermore, many of the classes and degrees have no real world value for students who aren't going to continue their education at a 4-year university; vocational training should be emphasized for them. If the President is actually serious about actually improving the educational opportunities available to the communities these places serve, then they need to provide a serious increase in funding for educators and administrators in order to guide aimless youth into actual careers and not just allow them to tread water.
2
I am unsure why NYT selected these comments as their picks. Most are shortsighted, inconsiderate of students' plight or obstacles students face in negotiating the CC maze.
For every student who sails through, there is another is is poorly treated, has little access to appeal, suffers through poor advisement, horrid leadership, worse adjuncts and endures sufferings they are unable to articulate u less a parent or advocate intercedes.
I challenge each of the commenters to visit their nearest CC and try to negotiate that maze as an entering student. I guarantee the older adults will suffer less than the average incoming freshman-- who probably works too-- but it will still give them a bit of the flavor
For every student who sails through, there is another is is poorly treated, has little access to appeal, suffers through poor advisement, horrid leadership, worse adjuncts and endures sufferings they are unable to articulate u less a parent or advocate intercedes.
I challenge each of the commenters to visit their nearest CC and try to negotiate that maze as an entering student. I guarantee the older adults will suffer less than the average incoming freshman-- who probably works too-- but it will still give them a bit of the flavor
Where in the world has everybody been? Community Colleges, aka 2 year colleges, have been around and functioning for years. I attended one more than 50 years ago. Best move I ever made. You not only learn, you learn to be a grown-up and no longer a high-schooler - the world opens up. Of course, depending on the caliber of the available students, it can simply be a postponement of learning to be self-driven. And no college, 4, 6 or 20 years can remedy that..............
3
January 15, 2015
Expanding the learning and maturing dynamics is the best investment for the future - and once again the NY Times Editors and President Obama to lead in this direction is heroic.
All the best to the continuing students to find a path that will enrich the times for all times. A side job earning some cash is also great - for just learning to be with positive and earning qualities in all ways.....
jja Manhattan, N. Y.
Expanding the learning and maturing dynamics is the best investment for the future - and once again the NY Times Editors and President Obama to lead in this direction is heroic.
All the best to the continuing students to find a path that will enrich the times for all times. A side job earning some cash is also great - for just learning to be with positive and earning qualities in all ways.....
jja Manhattan, N. Y.
3
Just like "Obama Care" turned into Federal Welfare for the Insurance Industry, and Obama's deference to Wall Street and the Banks turned his Recovery Programs into Welfare for the 1%, this will turn into a Gold Mine for the for profit Technical Schools that are ripping-off poor kids and the Government right now.
The Lobbyists and our corrupt Congress will make sure that money goes to the richest players
The Lobbyists and our corrupt Congress will make sure that money goes to the richest players
2
Well it is not really free. The cost is borne by taxpayers even though this seems to be forgotten often. I am not against such an idea. I received a college education under the GI Bill for my Korean War service and I am grateful for it even if the money did not cover all my college expenses. My college degree, the first and only in my family, allowed me to become, finally, a Vice President of a world known medical device company. I was able to pay back quite a bit of my "free" education money with taxes over my career. Ultimately, such governmental largesse as Obama has suggested may pay off substantially for our society in a similar manner.
Free community college is a good idea, but, as many have pointed out, this has to be carefully implemented. I’m speaking from personal experience: When I was in high school I had no interest to continue staying. After about 5 years of doing add jobs I became interested in science and I joined a community college – still not sure what I wanted – I was only curios. After one year of taking remedial classes and two more completing the requirements for an AS in chemistry, I transferred to a 4 year college, then graduate school and finally a postdoc. A community college made all the difference for me, my wife, and many of my friends who today are MD’s and Ph.D.’s. But not every one of my classmates was able to make it thru the transition to a four year school. The barrier was simply too high. Courses in the four year colleges were too demanding, and many of us were simply not well prepared for this. Secondly, there were many other students who simply attended the community college to take advantage of the government grants. Third, I’m a full time college professor, and in my college we depend on ad-joint faculty for teaching our laboratories and classes. Many of them only hold a BS degree… and there is little supervision. If this tendency of hiring ad joints is higher in community colleges, I suspect students will not receive the type of education required for them to be successful in their careers, and the goal of a free community college education will be lost.
1
How about if we focus on public secondary education, where the challenge for many of these students begins. There is no reason that the role of public schools can't be expanded to focus on the remedial work that keeps so many students from applying to accredited four-year colleges; and accelerating in certain vocational fields so that the entire burden isn't laid at the feet of a handful of existing public community colleges. That's right, I am emphasizing 'public.' I think this is worthwhile initiative, but he last place I want to see my tax dollars go is to more of these fly-by-night for-profit vocational schools- which will further proliferate if there are more federal/state tax dollars to suck up.
8
I wasn't accepted to college because of poor early high school grades (although my junior and senior year grades were decent after I matured a bit - no one noticed). I worked full time, took some some community college night classes and eventually transferred to full time. I never received an associates degree because I transferred to a four year school (so I guess I would be in the community college dropout statistics). I got a BA and eventually two Masters degrees and I'm a Director in my company. Like Tom Hanks this experience made the difference in my life. This idea should be developed; of course there are issues in the details but the potential for America and the American people to benefit are huge.
22
In California, they track what proportion graduates or transfers in six years, so you would have been regarded as a success. And everyone has a Horation Alger story about Community College. But the stats on what proportion of students these days graduate or transfer in 6 years are terrible. But, of course, this is precisely what you should expect when Community College is pitched as the magic pill for a failed K-12 system.
1
I want to love this program. I teach at a 4-year college and many of my most hardworking, deserving students transfer in from community colleges. But it's throwing money at a drowning system, without taking any steps to fix the following crippling problems:
1) It will feed the problem that is slowly strangling colleges around the country: administrative bloat. Just meeting this program's requirements would need 2-3 entire new administrative departments, each with its own deanlet, subordinates and admin staff.
2) It doesn't fix the worst problem: the kids it's aiming to help are often the ones 'graduating' from K-12 that leaves them without even basic skills like math and reading comprehension. Even students with C+ averages are often unprepared for college-level work. So community college ends up being remedial high school...and 2 years of that is NOT enough to get students up to speed for a 4-year college. They then fail out of the 4-year college, and still enter the workforce without a degree.
3) The community college of Mr Hanks' halcyon memories no longer exists. It's been colonized by armies of administrators and poorly-paid, overworked part-time instructors. Today's professors don't have time or even space (no offices!) to develop inspiring 'extra' lessons or encourage students' outside interests, or meet with students at all. They're already driving to their second or third job.
1) It will feed the problem that is slowly strangling colleges around the country: administrative bloat. Just meeting this program's requirements would need 2-3 entire new administrative departments, each with its own deanlet, subordinates and admin staff.
2) It doesn't fix the worst problem: the kids it's aiming to help are often the ones 'graduating' from K-12 that leaves them without even basic skills like math and reading comprehension. Even students with C+ averages are often unprepared for college-level work. So community college ends up being remedial high school...and 2 years of that is NOT enough to get students up to speed for a 4-year college. They then fail out of the 4-year college, and still enter the workforce without a degree.
3) The community college of Mr Hanks' halcyon memories no longer exists. It's been colonized by armies of administrators and poorly-paid, overworked part-time instructors. Today's professors don't have time or even space (no offices!) to develop inspiring 'extra' lessons or encourage students' outside interests, or meet with students at all. They're already driving to their second or third job.
22
I recently took some art classes at the local community college and was shocked to see that while every administrative peon had at minimum a comfortable cubicle with a phone and a PC, the adjunct instructors had to tote all their class materials with them and didn't even have a place to set down their coffee cup. While the former chewed gum and sprinkled their conversation with double negatives, the latter all held MFA's from prestigious art schools and were successful artists in their own right.
Not the picture I remember from my college years a couple of decades back. As a TA, I had my own office. Where have our priorities gone?
Not the picture I remember from my college years a couple of decades back. As a TA, I had my own office. Where have our priorities gone?
3
I wholeheartedly support the concept of taxpayer funded (i.e. free) higher education. But the real issue is the pathetically inadequate quality of high school education in what I suspect is the majority of schools. Teachers are grossly underpaid, facilities are inadequate and there is a huge need for expanded social services to support struggling children and their families. In Portland, families who can afford it are fleeing the public school system. A shocking number of children graduate from high school unable to write a simple essay, ignorant of history, and without hope for economic stability, let alone success.
The community college system in Oregon is excellent. Perhaps that is because unlike high school with mandatory attendance, college students are there by choice and are paying for the privilege. However, way too many people are being left behind. Our highest priority should be to create the best high schools in the world in all communities, in all neighborhoods and for all people.
The community college system in Oregon is excellent. Perhaps that is because unlike high school with mandatory attendance, college students are there by choice and are paying for the privilege. However, way too many people are being left behind. Our highest priority should be to create the best high schools in the world in all communities, in all neighborhoods and for all people.
11
I teach at a community college, and too many students treat it as a freeroll already. Many take their financial aid and show up for a few lectures and blow it off when they find out their actually expected to learn something, and in fact resent it when the degree or certificate comes with some expectations of performance. By pushing more under-prepared and under-motivated students through the door, we will necessarily decreasing the success rates of those institutions which are already chafing from dubious measures of accountability.
17
While I support education and especially higher education, I see this as yet another 'feel good' idea from Obama designed to do one thing and one thing only - insure more democratic voters.
How do we pay for this? There are only two methods - raise taxes or spin up the printing presses.
I teach adult ed classes in a correctional facility. The vast majority of GED and HS graduates talk about going back to school, and they are very good at completing their FAFSA forms but few have any idea of what it is they'll study, nor do they have any kind of career plan beyond some vague notion of what they think they might like. I wish I had a buck for every student that told me he wanted to get a degree in 'Culinary arts.'
How do we pay for this? There are only two methods - raise taxes or spin up the printing presses.
I teach adult ed classes in a correctional facility. The vast majority of GED and HS graduates talk about going back to school, and they are very good at completing their FAFSA forms but few have any idea of what it is they'll study, nor do they have any kind of career plan beyond some vague notion of what they think they might like. I wish I had a buck for every student that told me he wanted to get a degree in 'Culinary arts.'
6
How will this be paid for? We should never let politicians try to intoxicate the public with promises of the next free lunch without explicitly telling us how much taxes will go up, or what other spending will be cut.
Until I hear that, I'm automatically opposed. I'm probably opposed anyway, because (a) education is a state responsibility, not federal. We don't need the feds spreading their wings even further, and (b) I think fixing high schools is a better idea with a higher payoff.
Until I hear that, I'm automatically opposed. I'm probably opposed anyway, because (a) education is a state responsibility, not federal. We don't need the feds spreading their wings even further, and (b) I think fixing high schools is a better idea with a higher payoff.
6
The GI bill was a huge success. It put highly motivated WWII vets through college and into productive careers.
I suspect a big part of its sucess was due to the mental maturity of the appilicants. This allowed them to focus on education, not frat parties.
In many ways, it would be preferable if there were a gap between high school and college, perhaps filled with some form of public service. This would allow prospective students time to mature and make the best of the college experience. Years ago, the draft played this role, and returning soldiers were always high performers.
I suspect a big part of its sucess was due to the mental maturity of the appilicants. This allowed them to focus on education, not frat parties.
In many ways, it would be preferable if there were a gap between high school and college, perhaps filled with some form of public service. This would allow prospective students time to mature and make the best of the college experience. Years ago, the draft played this role, and returning soldiers were always high performers.
3
As a cc instructor my colleagues and I often remark on how our students who are veterans are often the best students. And I have had veterans who dropped out of our school or even failed in my classes, but have come back as first rate students. You want to make a modern history class that deals with war interesting, add two Recon Marines. This happened last year and it led a great deal of engagement on the part of the class when we dealt with topics related to war, which does come up in classes on 20th century Europe.
2
I've been saying this for years. So many people leave school with no idea what direction in which to path their lives. Time in service, away from the protection (or toxicity, in some cases), of parental influence and familiar environment, challenges us to determine who we are and where we are going as adults. Shouldn't we be expected to define this a bit before investing in an education that, in our economic system, is mainly a venue for career credentialing?
Tuition free community college will costs $ 60 billion. One Ford Class Aircraft Carrier $ 13 billion. America spent $ 640 billion on it's military in 2013. More than the next 8 nations combined including 3x China and about 8x Russia. The two wars have been paid for off the books by continuing resolutions. As has the Medicare Part D prescription drug benefit.
Public school education in America from K-12 is underfunded and unavailable on an equitable basis. Local and county taxes support public education along with some state and federal support. Community college education sits near the pinnacle of public education just short of 4 year and plus public educational institutions. Geography and ethnicity and race are educational socioeconomic political destiny.
Public school education in America from K-12 is underfunded and unavailable on an equitable basis. Local and county taxes support public education along with some state and federal support. Community college education sits near the pinnacle of public education just short of 4 year and plus public educational institutions. Geography and ethnicity and race are educational socioeconomic political destiny.
5
To those saying 'we can't afford it", where were you when another president proposed spending far more money on an elective war? Did you say "it'll pay for itself"? Did you say "deficits don't matter?" Did you say "support the troops!", that no amount was too much for "our" troops (while most Americans simply went on with their lives)?
This $60 billion proposal is but a small fraction of the estimated $3 trillion the Iraq War is expected to cost. And this is not a "cost", it's an investment, with an expected Return on Investment (ROI). Similar to the investment in our Interstate highway system (where would we be without it?).
I'm not happy with the 2.5 GPA requirement, but these are issues that can be discussed. But please, spare me the "we can't afford it" whining.
Always money for war, but not for education. Is that what I'm hearing from some of you?
This $60 billion proposal is but a small fraction of the estimated $3 trillion the Iraq War is expected to cost. And this is not a "cost", it's an investment, with an expected Return on Investment (ROI). Similar to the investment in our Interstate highway system (where would we be without it?).
I'm not happy with the 2.5 GPA requirement, but these are issues that can be discussed. But please, spare me the "we can't afford it" whining.
Always money for war, but not for education. Is that what I'm hearing from some of you?
4
Speaking as a conservative, the education of our populace is a necessity. That is why we have public grade schools and high schools. So our children can get reasonably educated up to 12th grade. But that is not good enough anymore. Today's world requires a bachelor's degree as a minimum. And that education should not come from paying up to $3,500 for a student's tuition. It should pay for everything. But community colleges aren't good enough to do that job. With the high cost of college, it's time to start building local colleges like we do grade schools and high schools. And it should be free. The private and public universities can go to hell with their $40,000+ tuition costs. With university presidents making upwards of $5,000,000 a year. (And yet they complain about the high income of corporate CEO's) Those existing schools should remain for advanced degrees only, so people don't get saddled with a quarter of a million dollars in college costs for each of their children. So I guess I both support Obama's initiative, but would go one big step further. A locally built public school at the college level could serve two or three communities and the cost could be shared by those communities equally in property taxes and through federal public funding, which would have to come from spending cuts in a lot of programs. But education is probably the most important program any government can provide its citizens.
1
This is another poor idea from the President and should be seen as another ploy to pander to college-age voters. The likely outcome of this proposal, in the unlikely event it is ever implemented, would be skyrocketing tuition for those not eligible for the subsidies, skyrocketing total cost to the government, and a total federal takeover of all aspects of community college curricula and policies. Community colleges would soon cease to exist and would be transformed into federal government colleges.
The federal government already provides many billions of dollars of need-based subsidies for higher education through dozens of existing loan and grant programs. Why do we need yet another?
The federal government already provides many billions of dollars of need-based subsidies for higher education through dozens of existing loan and grant programs. Why do we need yet another?
4
Anything that will make a good college education college more accessible to talented, motivated students is worth the social investment. You may call it an "entitlement" now, but the benefits will be reaped by all for decades to come.
The flies in the ointment are the qualifiers: a "good" college education for "good" students. Point #1: If you make community college free, even more high school seniors will opt for two years at the local community college before moving on to the more expensive four-year institution. And they will receive full credit for all those courses. But everyone in higher education knows that a community college course is almost never equivalent to the "same" course at a four-year college or university. We see this all the time in my institution. So the net effect will be to downgrade the education received by those students while putting many four-year institutions out of business altogether.
Point #2: As others have remarked, many students enrolling in community colleges are not prepared to do anything like college-level work. They drop out in droves along the way. If we make it free for all, it will be even more of a free-for-all, with shiftless high school seniors figuring they might as well pretend to attend college for a year or so as a way of postponing the inevitable entry into the adult workforce. So some sort of entry standards would need to be set.
The flies in the ointment are the qualifiers: a "good" college education for "good" students. Point #1: If you make community college free, even more high school seniors will opt for two years at the local community college before moving on to the more expensive four-year institution. And they will receive full credit for all those courses. But everyone in higher education knows that a community college course is almost never equivalent to the "same" course at a four-year college or university. We see this all the time in my institution. So the net effect will be to downgrade the education received by those students while putting many four-year institutions out of business altogether.
Point #2: As others have remarked, many students enrolling in community colleges are not prepared to do anything like college-level work. They drop out in droves along the way. If we make it free for all, it will be even more of a free-for-all, with shiftless high school seniors figuring they might as well pretend to attend college for a year or so as a way of postponing the inevitable entry into the adult workforce. So some sort of entry standards would need to be set.
6
The basic classes at many state universities seat more than 100 students in each lecture. It is not difficult for community colleges to do a superior job of teaching at those levels.
The Times editors make the real case succinctly and accurately:
"These are often insurmountable expenses for community college students — about one in three come from families with annual incomes below $20,000. Students, many of them struggling academically to begin with, typically try to make up the shortfall by working long hours. Their studies suffer, and they often drop out."
I've taught at Chabot (thank you, Tom Hanks) and City College of San Francisco.
The folks here who are arguing, essentially, that these kids blew it in high school so tough luck -- or, that the high schools are the problem -- are oversimplifying a bit.
Students are in remedial classes for many reasons. If they didn't get what they needed to in high school, that, too, is for many reasons -- including that adolescent brains are not sensitive to the consequences of actions such as, say, not doing one's homework.
Certainly the public school system needs to step up its game.
But many young Americans who fall through the cracks in high school finally figure it out at the Community Colleges. They learn to take school and themselves seriously. It changes people's lives. It really does.
The idea that if someone else is gaining something, then I must be losing, is the false assumption beneath much of the opposition.
Removing the very real financial obstacles to this, if students are locked in and living up to some standards, is not just good for them -- it's good for the country.
"These are often insurmountable expenses for community college students — about one in three come from families with annual incomes below $20,000. Students, many of them struggling academically to begin with, typically try to make up the shortfall by working long hours. Their studies suffer, and they often drop out."
I've taught at Chabot (thank you, Tom Hanks) and City College of San Francisco.
The folks here who are arguing, essentially, that these kids blew it in high school so tough luck -- or, that the high schools are the problem -- are oversimplifying a bit.
Students are in remedial classes for many reasons. If they didn't get what they needed to in high school, that, too, is for many reasons -- including that adolescent brains are not sensitive to the consequences of actions such as, say, not doing one's homework.
Certainly the public school system needs to step up its game.
But many young Americans who fall through the cracks in high school finally figure it out at the Community Colleges. They learn to take school and themselves seriously. It changes people's lives. It really does.
The idea that if someone else is gaining something, then I must be losing, is the false assumption beneath much of the opposition.
Removing the very real financial obstacles to this, if students are locked in and living up to some standards, is not just good for them -- it's good for the country.
5
A socialist proscenium with a complex set of props from the core of the neoliberal mind. An American society committed to enhancing the education and personal development of its citizens should bow to such a plan. Yet, our values are misguided and the President's agenda, along with the infantilizing tone of this article, assumes that community colleges are not doing enough, should only focus on moving low-income students through the system to fuel an obsessively capitalist economy, and rigidly prescribe curricula to a new federalized system of education. The tone is hauntingly familiar of the rhetoric of the President's Race to the Top only a few years ago which has left public education wounded and demoralized. This cannot happen to community colleges where deeply intellectual thought introduced to a segment of our society that has been enslaved by the reforms of the neoliberal agenda for twelve years. I am in staunch support of free tuition. I am in tearful protest of an agenda that bastardizes community colleges.
The President that keeps on giving. Free or highly subsidized medical. Free college education. Free six weeks family leave for workers. Student loans forgiven en masse for a fraction of their original value. On and on. Spending money we do not have, and disincenting small business to establish and grow. We have an economy with a record number of dropouts from the workforce, and despite the existence of almost "free" money for the past six years, investment at very troubling lows. The national debt is at $18T, heading for $25T in the next eight years. Annual deficits are heading for 3.5% of GDP. This is the don't worry be happy economy lauded by your own Paul Krugman that will be looked back on as the sad prelude to devastating impacts for all US citizens sooner tha most people, certainly most progressives, think.
2
Didn't mean to recommend this, I meant to reply.
The problem with the "everything has to be paid for," and spending, spending, spending talking points, is that they completely ignore an important role of government: that is to invest in the future. It's a future with an educated and healthy population that is needed. Of course too much debt is bad, but then I recommend we stop paying contractors to incarcerate the population, stop paying contractors to fight wars of choice, and stop giving ridiculous tax breaks to corporations.
Money isn't the problem -- we are awash in cash. It's our priorities that are the problem.
Spending done well is a good thing, and I can't think of a better investment than in healthcare and education.
The problem with the "everything has to be paid for," and spending, spending, spending talking points, is that they completely ignore an important role of government: that is to invest in the future. It's a future with an educated and healthy population that is needed. Of course too much debt is bad, but then I recommend we stop paying contractors to incarcerate the population, stop paying contractors to fight wars of choice, and stop giving ridiculous tax breaks to corporations.
Money isn't the problem -- we are awash in cash. It's our priorities that are the problem.
Spending done well is a good thing, and I can't think of a better investment than in healthcare and education.
2
Unlike xandtrek, I did mean to recommend this. Mr. Houseworth is right: the further expansion of the idea that anything worth having in life ought to be free because we're all victims and unable to take care of ourselves only leads to a more pervasive softening and demoralization of the American society.
Get off your duffs, folks, and earn something.
Get off your duffs, folks, and earn something.
2
Just what is needed, 13th and 14th grade. Maybe the students that blew off 1st thru 12th grades will now have a chance to learn something...
7
I've taught at a community college. There are a few important things to consider:
1) 75% of CC courses are taught by adjuncts who make very little money (as little as $2000 or less per course). The full-time faculty are usually pretty good, since getting those jobs is competitive, but the adjuncts vary wildly between great and "we desperately needed someone to teach the class and it's 3 days before classes start." It's a little ironic to me that Obama is pressing to increase a system in which 75% of the faculty are probably making barely minimum wage when you include travel time and grading.
2) 75% of CC students need remediation in at least one basic skill. This is another big reason they drop out -- they can't do the writing and math skills that an 8th grader in a good school district would have already mastered. If you want students to succeed and graduate quickly, without debt, you'd be better off getting them ready for college-level work before they get there.
3) Many students also drop out because they hit a personal crisis and stop coming to class (sometimes semester after semester.) I'm not sure how this would help them, either.
I like the idea, but the root of the problem, to me, isn't about tuition. It is that our low minimum wage keeps people in poverty, and everything else becomes harder. If these students were earning $20/hr (the 1970 minimum wage) then they could pay their own way -- or survive without college if they're not well suited to academics.
1) 75% of CC courses are taught by adjuncts who make very little money (as little as $2000 or less per course). The full-time faculty are usually pretty good, since getting those jobs is competitive, but the adjuncts vary wildly between great and "we desperately needed someone to teach the class and it's 3 days before classes start." It's a little ironic to me that Obama is pressing to increase a system in which 75% of the faculty are probably making barely minimum wage when you include travel time and grading.
2) 75% of CC students need remediation in at least one basic skill. This is another big reason they drop out -- they can't do the writing and math skills that an 8th grader in a good school district would have already mastered. If you want students to succeed and graduate quickly, without debt, you'd be better off getting them ready for college-level work before they get there.
3) Many students also drop out because they hit a personal crisis and stop coming to class (sometimes semester after semester.) I'm not sure how this would help them, either.
I like the idea, but the root of the problem, to me, isn't about tuition. It is that our low minimum wage keeps people in poverty, and everything else becomes harder. If these students were earning $20/hr (the 1970 minimum wage) then they could pay their own way -- or survive without college if they're not well suited to academics.
8
Cheap compared to paying for an increasing prison population. 98% of those in prison are illiterate. Access to a college education creates more options for underprivileged. Without an education US citizens cannot fully appreciate the freedoms guaranteed to all by the US Constitution. Let's face it Pursuit of happiness is a joke if your broke.
8
Are you kidding? Another entitlement, paid for by already overburdened taxpayers. You have to know that if the cost is estimated at $60 billion over 10 years it will actually be double that after the federal government gets involved. Our federal debt is over $17 trillion, up from $11 trillion when Obama took office. Spending money is Obama's answer to everything.
1
Yes, the CEO of the United States of America, wealthiest country on earth, spends money on solutions to problems.
Shocking.
Shocking.
3
This is one of the best ideas Obama has pitched. It would be a smart investment. Pay back to our society and economy would be tenfold. We would end up building more state of the art community colleges, and decades down the road it could be the natural step for a third or more of our high school students. Tom Hank's in the Times yesterday painted a great picture of what Community College can do, if one has ambition. Many people will choose this option if it goes through. My immediate questions: Would our community colleges be able to handle the massive influx? Perhaps 60 billion is too conservative a number? What would we cut from our budget to pay for it?
3
If the American workforce is undereducated, fix the education system during the 13 years during which it is mandatory. Of course this is extremely difficult when it is the society that has failed the schools, rather than the schools that are failing society. Obama's plan creates another education entitlement for those who have habitually squandered earlier opportunities provided to them "for free." I am there. I see it at the CC where I have worked for nearly 20 years. If you treat college like an endless roll of paper towels, the public will use it that way. Or maybe it's a mega-box of Kleenex.
The funding structure (the writing is already on the wall) will force reductions in standards in order to improve "success" rates. This is how administrators keep the money pump firing on all cylinders. Then we have, essentially, created grades 13 and 14 for two years after high school, with huge numbers of under-performing students receiving financial aid checks for their non-effort. We will always find people who benefit, but the shocking number who simply shuffle through the revolving door will drag the system down to its discredit. I guess we should get ahead of the curve and start formulating arguments that blame the professors and their unions.
Oh, the days when I was proud to be a liberal. 30 years in public education has just about cured me of that.
The funding structure (the writing is already on the wall) will force reductions in standards in order to improve "success" rates. This is how administrators keep the money pump firing on all cylinders. Then we have, essentially, created grades 13 and 14 for two years after high school, with huge numbers of under-performing students receiving financial aid checks for their non-effort. We will always find people who benefit, but the shocking number who simply shuffle through the revolving door will drag the system down to its discredit. I guess we should get ahead of the curve and start formulating arguments that blame the professors and their unions.
Oh, the days when I was proud to be a liberal. 30 years in public education has just about cured me of that.
2
After World War II, the GI bill was a great investment in this county's future that paid back huge dividends. Creating a path for students to achieve their dream of college education while using a low or no cost alternative for the first two years is a winner
4
Tuitions and student debts are continuing to rise faster than any other bubbles in the economy bc they are backed by taxpayers. IF only they taught about the housing bubble in college! The Democrats continue to support "investment" in taxpayer subsidized education that predictably drives the demand, prices with it. And does anyone think this is anything but deliberate? Health care costs (insurance and medical care), education, "affordable housing" all have outpaced costs of living and economic growth bc they are not driven by market demand, but skewed in favor of special interests by gov't subsidies, mandates, quotas, and other mislabeled and unintended consequences of "compassion" and the like. Americans and liberals especially need to wake up. The road to hell and worse outcomes is paved with subsidized good intentions.
Better to be in school learning to cope with the realities of a changing job market which requires preparation, then to looking for a job flipping hamburgers.
At this point there are all kinds of "what ifs" which could be worked out in a final bill, but to do nothing to educate the citizenry is a ticket to American mediocrity.
We will either compete against the rising tide of doctors, engineers, scientists and technologists coming out of foreign universities or we will be eventually buried in a sea of governmental support for those who cannot find work—let alone good work—in this country.
At this point there are all kinds of "what ifs" which could be worked out in a final bill, but to do nothing to educate the citizenry is a ticket to American mediocrity.
We will either compete against the rising tide of doctors, engineers, scientists and technologists coming out of foreign universities or we will be eventually buried in a sea of governmental support for those who cannot find work—let alone good work—in this country.
2
I would like to believe that a program like this might just keep some of our at risk young people out of our already overcrowded prison system. The possibility of real help in obtaining a college education can offer hope to kids looking for a way out of poverty. As a taxpayer I would much rather see my money spent on education as opposed to incarceration.
2
My experience as a university professor is that community colleges are not succeeding in their attempt to fix the problems caused by our failing high schools. Do more of what's failing will not fix the problem.
The problem is parents. That's all there is to it; secondary school teachers can not, to the scale required, correct the problems caused by parents who treat school as free babysitting. That's what they vote for, what they pay for, and what they train their children to accept.
Instead, Post-secondary education option should be expanded so that all of the high school students have the option to go to learn in community college and escape the waste which is, for many of them, high school. I escaped two years of wood shop, metal shop, auto shop, pot smoking and cutting class when I was given the option to go to community college. So many more of our disadvantaged young people would get a leg up if they, too, could replace two years of failure with two years of success, and replace two years of being taught to fail by their peers with two years of learning that they can succeed.
The problem is parents. That's all there is to it; secondary school teachers can not, to the scale required, correct the problems caused by parents who treat school as free babysitting. That's what they vote for, what they pay for, and what they train their children to accept.
Instead, Post-secondary education option should be expanded so that all of the high school students have the option to go to learn in community college and escape the waste which is, for many of them, high school. I escaped two years of wood shop, metal shop, auto shop, pot smoking and cutting class when I was given the option to go to community college. So many more of our disadvantaged young people would get a leg up if they, too, could replace two years of failure with two years of success, and replace two years of being taught to fail by their peers with two years of learning that they can succeed.
1
The Times editorial leaves a large question unanswered. The editorial rightly points out that tuition and fees for most needy students is already paid for by Pell Grants. Then it rightly goes on to point out that many other expenses are deterrents to attendance and graduation. But the Obama proposal seems to only address tuition and fees. If that's true, it would have little benefit. Does the proposal address other costs as well? If so, how does it do so?
1
Make community college free and let the graduation rate drop from 15% to 0%. Sodalicious.
2
The average age of a community college student is 29. How much more skin in the game does one need than to realize that their current job just isn't cutting it and going back to school may just be the ticket out of a life consisting of low pay and struggling to make ends meet. If corporations would pay their workers a living wage this program wouldn't be necessary.
2
We are misdiagnosing the problem and, therefore, this is not the correct solution.
We are short of college grads, armed with marketable degrees, because we aren't producing high school grads who can do college work. This is the reason why the performance of community colleges is so poor. Any legitimate college is never going to mass remediate a failed K-12 system.
Furthermore, I contend, the community colleges contribute to this problem themselves. How? California's CC's, enrolling 25% of all the CC students in the country, have no entrance requirements whatsoever. Zero. It doesn't matter what courses a student took in high school, what grades they got, whether they even graduated.
The CC option is aggressively marketed to our kids as young as middle school. Every kid knows the CC's have no entrance requirements. So they blow off high school.
Is it any wonder, Community College students are terribly prepared to do college work?! Our entire system has been telling them they need not work in high school.
Making community college more acceptable, more affordable, will just make this worse. We can't produce an Olympic team by funding training centers that cater to "athletes" who have never shown much interest in a sport before, aren't very good at it, and are only there because someone is paying for it.
We are short of college grads, armed with marketable degrees, because we aren't producing high school grads who can do college work. This is the reason why the performance of community colleges is so poor. Any legitimate college is never going to mass remediate a failed K-12 system.
Furthermore, I contend, the community colleges contribute to this problem themselves. How? California's CC's, enrolling 25% of all the CC students in the country, have no entrance requirements whatsoever. Zero. It doesn't matter what courses a student took in high school, what grades they got, whether they even graduated.
The CC option is aggressively marketed to our kids as young as middle school. Every kid knows the CC's have no entrance requirements. So they blow off high school.
Is it any wonder, Community College students are terribly prepared to do college work?! Our entire system has been telling them they need not work in high school.
Making community college more acceptable, more affordable, will just make this worse. We can't produce an Olympic team by funding training centers that cater to "athletes" who have never shown much interest in a sport before, aren't very good at it, and are only there because someone is paying for it.
2
Well written and good arguments in favor of the President's plan to expand community college enrollment and the success of students in need at community colleges.
As an adjunct instructor for many years at this level teaching both remedial and college "success" courses, this can only be a boon to both students and community colleges. If money is used well, then more intensive efforts can be made to offer courses to students at risk academically.
As an adjunct instructor for many years at this level teaching both remedial and college "success" courses, this can only be a boon to both students and community colleges. If money is used well, then more intensive efforts can be made to offer courses to students at risk academically.
4
This free Community College legislation will evolve into several massive Chicago political type "Pay to Play" contract schemes with all millions of taxpayer money going into campaign contributors pockets just like the "Solyndra" and the "CGI Federal" no-bid multi-million dollar "free government money" contract deals.
1
As soon as I get to the word "Chicago" I know I'm going to be reading some right-wing "paint-by-the-numbers" political rant. And sure enough, there's Solyndra. Perhaps you've forgotten that under the last administration, the Vice President's former company got no-bid contracts worth billions of dollars.
2
The right of centre Economist in a piece on US education once described the community college system as its jewel. They were not wrong. Given the demise of unions in America and the reality of globalization which enables companies to outsource almost at will, the only way American workers can retain (or regain) their ability to find decent paying jobs in the years ahead is through making our workforce one that is highly educated. And that can mean by means of trade and technical training as well as through a university education.
As for funding, how about diverting some funds from the bloated national security budget. Surely our ability to invest in our human capital is every bit at important (and arguably more so) to our long term security as having ten aircraft carrier groups.
As for funding, how about diverting some funds from the bloated national security budget. Surely our ability to invest in our human capital is every bit at important (and arguably more so) to our long term security as having ten aircraft carrier groups.
2
I could support this if it were extended to include the first two years at four year colleges and universities, where the quality of an education is much higher, the faculty far better qualified, and the range of course offerings far more extensive.
1
I graduated from a highly competitive college 40 years ago. Ten years ago, I took a programming course at a local Community College , C++. It was cheap. I was concerned about the content. It was not dumbed down. The course was filled with a diverse array of students, but they had to swim or sink. People keep on telling us we must prepare for the Knowledge Future by keeping our education up to date and current. What better way to do this than extremely inexpensive community colleges.
Even if many courses are remedial, so what. This gives everyone a chance to correct past mistakes, to make a fresh start It is very American.
Even if many courses are remedial, so what. This gives everyone a chance to correct past mistakes, to make a fresh start It is very American.
1
Wait, did I understand correctly that the President wants to pump $60bn over the next 10 years into schools with an average graduation rate of 15%...? If only 15% finish when they have skin in the game, how many will finish when they are not on the hook for the expense? I don't want my money used for that.
7
The proposal to offer free community colleges comes with a big price tag. So, it is a pipe dream unless the Congress can fund it and the States want to implement it.
Obama is constantly proposing new ideas, without considering whether we can afford it. That is not how managers and leaders work. This guy is no manager, nor a leader.
Unworkable. So, unworthy of our time considering it.
Obama is constantly proposing new ideas, without considering whether we can afford it. That is not how managers and leaders work. This guy is no manager, nor a leader.
Unworkable. So, unworthy of our time considering it.
7
The proposal for free education among community colleges is a step towards the right direction because students who come from low income households usually struggle to manage both work and school. And many times students end up prioritizing work because of its immediate benefits. Higher education is an important aspect to modern society and I think the proposal for free education would bring motivation to students coming from low income backgrounds. The more motivation students have to go to college the higher the success/graduation rates would be, which in turn, would provide better opportunities of employment.
2
I agree that this is a program that can enhance the skills of workers who need additional skills for today's workforce. However, the focus of the program should not be to send the student on to a 4 year college in all cases.
Realistically, not everyone needs a four year degree. but trade skills are becoming much more important now than in the past. As a member of the construction industry, finding qualified skilled tradesmen/women is getting harder and in the next 15 years will be a problem unless something happens.
But everyone wants the high paying, white collar jobs that come with a college degree. But who can forget the countless stories of liberal arts students living at home with Mom and Dad or working at Starbucks?
You should see what a welder can make.
With a focus on real jobs and getting the folks real skills, this can work. If its a throw money at the schools and see what happens the it won't work. The government needs direction on this.
The country needs folks who want to get their hands dirty doing skilled trade type work. If the government can promote that as a way to financial security then everyone in the US should want to support this plan. If its another subsidy and doesn't provide a benefit then its a tax.
Let's hope the government has a vision for this and that the students have to take meaningful courses to qualify and get a job. If they don't have a job using those skills, they pay it back.
Realistically, not everyone needs a four year degree. but trade skills are becoming much more important now than in the past. As a member of the construction industry, finding qualified skilled tradesmen/women is getting harder and in the next 15 years will be a problem unless something happens.
But everyone wants the high paying, white collar jobs that come with a college degree. But who can forget the countless stories of liberal arts students living at home with Mom and Dad or working at Starbucks?
You should see what a welder can make.
With a focus on real jobs and getting the folks real skills, this can work. If its a throw money at the schools and see what happens the it won't work. The government needs direction on this.
The country needs folks who want to get their hands dirty doing skilled trade type work. If the government can promote that as a way to financial security then everyone in the US should want to support this plan. If its another subsidy and doesn't provide a benefit then its a tax.
Let's hope the government has a vision for this and that the students have to take meaningful courses to qualify and get a job. If they don't have a job using those skills, they pay it back.
1
President Obama's proposed 2.5 GPA requirement to qualify for tuition repayment will create an incentive for both the community college and the student to collaborate on "fiscal" promotion. If 2-year schools are not paid because a student's grades don't qualify for tuition reimbursement, it cannot help but affect the school's bottom line. The first hint of quid pro quo scandal will devalue all community college graduates, even more than they are often devalued today. What's more, fiscal promotion will hit harder those students from disadvantaged backgrounds. Employers may think certain students are from a sub-par high school only to be moved along to a struggling community college more concerned with its own finances. We may end up with something like the Ivy League athlete who graduates without mastery of basic skills while although he made the school scads of money playing football.
Today, with college credits in hand, a black person stands about the same chance as getting a job as a white person who's dropped out of high school. After all the additional expenses incurred, we must take care that the students who need the most attention do not end up back on Square One.
http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/
Today, with college credits in hand, a black person stands about the same chance as getting a job as a white person who's dropped out of high school. After all the additional expenses incurred, we must take care that the students who need the most attention do not end up back on Square One.
http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/
2
I saw that stat somewhere else, but I would need some citations please.
Taxpayer supported higher education at all public colleges and universities should not create any more liberal arts graduates, political science graduates, history graduates, philosophy graduates with public tax created funds.
These fields are over supplied with applicants and these graduates are generally unemployable with those degrees (except in the fast food industry), and new students should be encouraged not to pursue degrees in those fields.
The three “R”s (Reading, wRiting, & aRithmetic) are liberal arts topics that all students need, but students should not be allowed seek useless degrees in other liberal arts topics such as political science, history, philosophy, psychology, sociology, women’s studies, etc. that are offered by the liberal arts colleges at the universities, unless their parents certify that they will continue support those graduates after they graduate (and are unemployed due to their choice of degree).
These fields are over supplied with applicants and these graduates are generally unemployable with those degrees (except in the fast food industry), and new students should be encouraged not to pursue degrees in those fields.
The three “R”s (Reading, wRiting, & aRithmetic) are liberal arts topics that all students need, but students should not be allowed seek useless degrees in other liberal arts topics such as political science, history, philosophy, psychology, sociology, women’s studies, etc. that are offered by the liberal arts colleges at the universities, unless their parents certify that they will continue support those graduates after they graduate (and are unemployed due to their choice of degree).
5
Psychologists and psychiatrists are extremely well paid, for one thing. Furthermore, with our current obsession with schooling, any job related to supporting children with learning problems is also a good job.
As for other degrees, it's true that employment runs scarce, unless you get a PhD.
As for other degrees, it's true that employment runs scarce, unless you get a PhD.
I couldn't disagree more: tying the program to what are today perceived as desirable jobs will only doom students to be permanently behind the hiring and tech curve. In contrast, employers consistently and overwhelmingly say they want new hires to be able to do the following: think critically, problem-solve and WRITE WELL.
Those degrees you write off as useless are the only ones that teach these skills. And they produce fantastically successful graduates - a recent study showed that a few years after graduation, humanities majors made very good salaries. Know what 'useless' jobs History, English Lit, Classics and other liberal arts majors have? CEOs of major companies like Goldman Sachs, Disney, PayPal, HP, AmEx, Xerox...the list goes on and on. For History majors alone, you can count at least 1/3 of the current Supreme Court Justices (Kagan, Scalia, Kennedy all were History majors) and 7 presidents of the US.
Those degrees you write off as useless are the only ones that teach these skills. And they produce fantastically successful graduates - a recent study showed that a few years after graduation, humanities majors made very good salaries. Know what 'useless' jobs History, English Lit, Classics and other liberal arts majors have? CEOs of major companies like Goldman Sachs, Disney, PayPal, HP, AmEx, Xerox...the list goes on and on. For History majors alone, you can count at least 1/3 of the current Supreme Court Justices (Kagan, Scalia, Kennedy all were History majors) and 7 presidents of the US.
1
'President Obama’s proposal to make community college tuition-free could be crucial in the information age. It needs to be taken seriously." First, give me a reason why I should take the opinion of the Times's Editorial Board seriously.
5
Contemporary trends in international trade has increasingly concentrated capital intensive production in countries like the US. That requires loads of skills from the workforce... A quick look suggest he's got a point, at least to some extent.
1
It's quite striking to think that Congress might fore go this life-changing opportunity for many in lieu of funding the pipeline for very few.
2
Do you live off the grid? The products made from the material in the pipeline are available to everyone. Life-changing opportunity? CC is just about free already. How about we fiX K12 education first so that CC students don't have to spend years in remedial classes. So many other things need to be done. This is just a photo op.
2
It's quite striking to think that Congress might fore go this life-changing opportunity for many in lieu of funding the pipeline for very few.
======================
Congress isn't planning to fund construction of a pipeline. They want to give permission for a private oil company to spend its own money to build Keystone XL
======================
Congress isn't planning to fund construction of a pipeline. They want to give permission for a private oil company to spend its own money to build Keystone XL
1
Nationally, barely more than 70% of high school students graduate. Many 1st year college students must take remedial courses because they are unprepared for the rigors of college. Obama's proposal makes community college free for high school graduates with a C+ grade point or better. Let's fix our public schools before we reward mediocrity. I'm all in favor of rewarding the best students with free tuition. Oh, wait.... we already do that.
13
Academic scores are related to many things, including household income via the provision of such things as good nutrition, but also additional tuition, support and activities like sports or learning to play musical instruments.
I do not expect all high school students to be responsible and dedicated, especially considering most of them have a very blurry vision of their future. It's always easier to pay the hefty price of striving for excellence when you know you will love the job that goes with it. In high school, I was lazy, irresponsible, arrogant and disorganized. I scored big in most courses because, well, I am lucky enough to be very good at intellectual work, but I didn't earn my big grades. I even spent two years studying architecture before I realize social sciences were more interesting. I currently study economics and I am very grateful that tuition is cheap in Canada and that my government provides the support it provides.
It took me lots of time, but I work really hard now and I believe Canadians will enjoy every dollar they spent on me some day. My GPA currently is at 4.1, not had for someone who used to pick his butt in HS. Give people a chance to find their goal and they'll be worth every penny once they are driven towards something.
I do not expect all high school students to be responsible and dedicated, especially considering most of them have a very blurry vision of their future. It's always easier to pay the hefty price of striving for excellence when you know you will love the job that goes with it. In high school, I was lazy, irresponsible, arrogant and disorganized. I scored big in most courses because, well, I am lucky enough to be very good at intellectual work, but I didn't earn my big grades. I even spent two years studying architecture before I realize social sciences were more interesting. I currently study economics and I am very grateful that tuition is cheap in Canada and that my government provides the support it provides.
It took me lots of time, but I work really hard now and I believe Canadians will enjoy every dollar they spent on me some day. My GPA currently is at 4.1, not had for someone who used to pick his butt in HS. Give people a chance to find their goal and they'll be worth every penny once they are driven towards something.
1
This program has real promise.
However, lets make testing at a 12th grade level in English and Math a prerequisite.
That way we know the benefits will go to a person that cares about education, took advantage of the opportunities they had, and are good stewards of the tax payers dollar. If they don't make the grade, go back to high school for remedial education.
Do Not lower the standards of our higher education system to accommodate those that did not take advantage of our elementary and secondary education system.
However, lets make testing at a 12th grade level in English and Math a prerequisite.
That way we know the benefits will go to a person that cares about education, took advantage of the opportunities they had, and are good stewards of the tax payers dollar. If they don't make the grade, go back to high school for remedial education.
Do Not lower the standards of our higher education system to accommodate those that did not take advantage of our elementary and secondary education system.
8
This is a great idea and way overdue. Will everyone take advantage of it? No. Will all high school graduates succeed? No. Will it make a difference for many? Yes. Will many entrants drop out? Yes. My big concern is the need to evaluate the program. Will the Obama administration pile on another standardized test? I hope not. The whole idea of it is counter-culture along with the idea of trying to increase college graduation rates and tie federal funding to that rate. As an adult -student, the responsibility in on that individual. I know no company that wants to hire a person that needs their hand held.
Not ANOTHER entitlement. It is NOT free - someone has to pay - that is the taxpayer.
Too many students in CC are really taking high school courses to make up for the deficiency of the high school teaching. It makes NO sense to create and entitlement to pay for education which should have been taught in high school.
I am totally against this project. We simply don't have the money to do it. Obama does nothing but think up schemes to rob the taxpayers to give their money for a new entitelement.
This is bad idea which we cannot afford.
Too many students in CC are really taking high school courses to make up for the deficiency of the high school teaching. It makes NO sense to create and entitlement to pay for education which should have been taught in high school.
I am totally against this project. We simply don't have the money to do it. Obama does nothing but think up schemes to rob the taxpayers to give their money for a new entitelement.
This is bad idea which we cannot afford.
20
The US is largely undertaxed compared to its western peers and largely abuses in the military department -- there's ample money to do this.
As for your comment, if I recall, you're more or less onto something real: you get the most bang for your buck when you address education problem earlier, such as providing 3 years old and the likes better chances to attend educational activities regardless of their parents financial situation. However, it doesn't mean that Obama's proposal is wrong because it might pay off too and, knowing Obama, he didn't devise a plan without consulting experts in this field.
As for your comment, if I recall, you're more or less onto something real: you get the most bang for your buck when you address education problem earlier, such as providing 3 years old and the likes better chances to attend educational activities regardless of their parents financial situation. However, it doesn't mean that Obama's proposal is wrong because it might pay off too and, knowing Obama, he didn't devise a plan without consulting experts in this field.
2
no money for education, plenty of money for weapons and standing armies. great priorities.
1
President Obama’s recent proposal to make community college tuition-free has been met with skepticism that has become a recurring theme (consider the 19th century advocates for universal public high school or the Farm Belt's high-school movement). Quite simply, are community colleges ready for it? Access to education is one thing, but its worth is questionable if it lacks in quality. Yet investment in education is more important now than ever — with both globalization and technological innovation, opportunities for uneducated workers are diminishing while income inequality is growing. President Obama’s proposal is an important and strong start, but these opportunities still gravitate towards those who already have the initiative and support. Those with the right confidence and circumstances (strong primary education foundation, flexibility to temporarily leave the workforce, outside financial support for non-tuition fees and other necessities, family stability, etc.) can make the right adjustments, get the right skills, and ultimately thrive; however, those who are challenged with obstacles now will only fall further behind. Deeply ingrained social issues (such as teen pregnancy, drug use, or racial and gender discrimination) create these obstacles standing at the root of the unemployment and education problem. Nevertheless, it is great to see figures like Tom Hanks alongside President Obama promoting education as an issue worthy of action.
1
Great idea, but the Republican Congress will surely reject it. How can they give Pres. Obama credit for this? Impossible! A pipe dream, but worth proposing.
I remember hearing then Sen. Hillary Clinton speaking at a community college, in Rochester, NY, where I live. Perhaps she can make the community college proposal a key part of her campaign for president.
www.SavingSchools.org
I remember hearing then Sen. Hillary Clinton speaking at a community college, in Rochester, NY, where I live. Perhaps she can make the community college proposal a key part of her campaign for president.
www.SavingSchools.org
2
Education finance reform is badly needed. The current system hurts everyone. It hurts poor children, who are disproportionately dependent on a public education for social and economic mobility. It hurts elders, who must move out of communities they’ve lived in for decades because they can’t afford school taxes on a fixed income. And it hurts working families, who pay through the nose for housing in good districts, school taxes, and all the other pay as you go activities that used to be free.
Primary and secondary education must improve if we’re truly concerned about the job prospects of our young people. I am worried that this program will undermine secondary education. Community college instructors are often part time with no teaching license and are paid poorly. Is this another attempt to cut costs by cutting the quality of instruction? Will poor performing students be encouraged to coast through high school and attend CC’s on the fed’s dime instead of the districts? Will it end up taking 6 years to get the equivalent of a high school diploma?
The problem isn’t that there aren’t enough colleges to attend. The problem is finding quality college students with the skills to graduate. It seems like we’re doing everything to solve the problem but actually solve it.
Primary and secondary education must improve if we’re truly concerned about the job prospects of our young people. I am worried that this program will undermine secondary education. Community college instructors are often part time with no teaching license and are paid poorly. Is this another attempt to cut costs by cutting the quality of instruction? Will poor performing students be encouraged to coast through high school and attend CC’s on the fed’s dime instead of the districts? Will it end up taking 6 years to get the equivalent of a high school diploma?
The problem isn’t that there aren’t enough colleges to attend. The problem is finding quality college students with the skills to graduate. It seems like we’re doing everything to solve the problem but actually solve it.
The community colleges offer both the first two years of academics towards a bachelors degree as well as numerous trade and technical programs leading to solid middle income jobs and upward social mobility, they are a pathway to prosperity for the entire community by providing a labor force able to meet the needs of both manufacturing and service industries. Higher education from community colleges through public universities consistently return far more money to every polity which supports them than the cost. They are a kind of infrastructure for a modern and dynamic society which is as important as the other infrastructures and services of government which we need to prosper. The tax moneys spent return far more value to the taxpayers than those tax deductions awarded to businesses which our elected officials just cannot live without.
1
A family member taught at a community college for over a decade and he was discouraged by the large number of students who, while having a high school diploma, needed remedial math and english courses. How will this be addressed in Obama's plan? Additionally, my twenty-something daughters have been fortunate to find employment in their chosen fields but many of their college classmates are stuck in minimum wage jobs because they cannot find a job even though they have degrees. Talk to the servers you meet the next time you visit a restaurant - chances are one will be a college graduate. What good is a degree if there are not enough jobs?
1
This is just another one of the never ending programs designed to redistribute income. As the editorial board correctly points out there are already programs in place to help low income students attend school. The suggestion that federal money should be used to pay the living expenses of Community College students, who are already receiving tuition assistance is ridiculous. Should the government buy them a car, pay their rent and feed them while they attend school? Why not pay for a spring break vacation so they can reduce their stress?
3
Building dependency is part of the plan
Community colleges must build endowments to educate the next generation of students. It will reduce dependency on state appropriations and fickle support from Washington. If taxpayers' dollars were invested in building endowments - it would generate an enormous return on the investment. For example, If Congress appropriated $50-billion for endowed financial aid it would generate more than $1-trillion of economic impact from the future earnings of each graduating class. With 500 public colleges benefiting, the impact of the multiplier effect would strengthen local economies across the nation.
1
This plan is gigantic. On a par with the interstate highway system. the space program, Social Security, healthcare for all. High school diplomas are not enough in the workforce today or tomorrow. The expectation of at least two years of training after high school changes the facts of how well educated our workforce is and will force colleges to rethink what it is they have to offer. This will be a boon particularly to those kids going into the trades, whether it is plumbing, electricity, coding, healthcare careers, it is going to rebuild the working class in this country and give them skills and livable wages.
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2
Why does this have to be a federal program? At least one state is implementing this on its own. Let's see how that turns out. If it is beneficial, every other state is free to copy it -- with improvements and adaptations tailored to suit their own citizens. Further, states are required by law to balance their budgets, so we won't have to depend on a politician's promises to know it will be paid for.
This is the approach that should have been taken with healthcare reform. If the Massachusetts reforms were so obviously beneficial, every other state was free to implement their own program. Instead, we were subjected to lie after lie to secure passage at the federal level. Why?
Let the states function as laboratories, as the Founders intended. We'll get more accountability and better results.
This is the approach that should have been taken with healthcare reform. If the Massachusetts reforms were so obviously beneficial, every other state was free to implement their own program. Instead, we were subjected to lie after lie to secure passage at the federal level. Why?
Let the states function as laboratories, as the Founders intended. We'll get more accountability and better results.
3
I am always amazed that conservative voices in this country can so openly and vehemently oppose such simple plans to help those in this country who are most in need of help (food stamps, free community college etc) and at the same time loudly call for ideas and spending that primarily benefit the wealthy (keystone, tax cuts for the top, deregulation, etc). Estimated costs indicate the President's plan will cost the same amount of money in year one as the total cost of the pipeline, but in terms of productivity, rising wages, etc the benefits of the Presidents plan outstrip the benefits of the pipeline. Lets see how the Republicans in Congress justify helping big oil while denying help to those near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder this time.
3
Estimated costs indicate the President's plan will cost the same amount of money in year one as the total cost of the pipeline, but in terms of productivity, rising wages, etc the benefits of the Presidents plan outstrip the benefits of the pipeline. Lets see how the Republicans in Congress justify helping big oil while denying help to those near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder this time.
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The US government isn't going to spend any money to build the Keystone pipeline. Republicans just want to give Trans Canada permission to spend its own money to build it.
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The US government isn't going to spend any money to build the Keystone pipeline. Republicans just want to give Trans Canada permission to spend its own money to build it.
"most jobs in the new economy will require some college education." What does this really mean? That we are not educating our high school students appropriately? What needs to be added? What can be removed? What is a basic education for all levels of society that our public schools should be imparting to our whole citizenry? What specialized training can be done earlier and outside of a college education provided by PhD level educators? How can college - 2 to 4 years on top of high school, making the graduate 20-24 years old - be required before any regular person can contribute as a functioning member of society?
We are more and more glibly making less and less sense.
We are more and more glibly making less and less sense.
Yes, but for people maintaining a 2.5 grade point average? That's worse than mediocrity. Is this a social feel-good program or an educational program? How about having students maintain at least a 3.0 average to show that this is truly about getting a college education?
4
We are expanding education opportunities in two directions. Pre K is moving from 1-3 years. Many who graduate require extensive remedial work before they can succeed in community college; more need both a GED and remedial work.
I think everyone should get the schooling they need to gain access to good jobs and the opportunity to optimize their use of skills, training and ambitions.
Without discipline for the colleges and student, another waste tax dollar.
This program needs to not only give careful thought to keeping the schools from merely raising their prices and adding another VP to the Staff, they need to find ways to encourage the student to do this and learn, master a beginners level in a craft or trade or college prep, and then go on to work or move to higher education.
Now we have over a trillion out in student loans. Debt default is increasing. Even grandparents are paying loans from their Social Security.
Students need skin in the game from the outset. They should begin with some savings. They should work,perhaps lowering the cost to the schools thus keeping tuition down. When they finish they should go to work, preferably in the trade for which they prepared. If not gainfully employed some of the money given in grants might need to be converted to debt.
Schools seem to just raise their prices to sop up 40% or more of the new money. Students get some benefit but they too are encouraged especially with grants to take the money and coast.
I think everyone should get the schooling they need to gain access to good jobs and the opportunity to optimize their use of skills, training and ambitions.
Without discipline for the colleges and student, another waste tax dollar.
This program needs to not only give careful thought to keeping the schools from merely raising their prices and adding another VP to the Staff, they need to find ways to encourage the student to do this and learn, master a beginners level in a craft or trade or college prep, and then go on to work or move to higher education.
Now we have over a trillion out in student loans. Debt default is increasing. Even grandparents are paying loans from their Social Security.
Students need skin in the game from the outset. They should begin with some savings. They should work,perhaps lowering the cost to the schools thus keeping tuition down. When they finish they should go to work, preferably in the trade for which they prepared. If not gainfully employed some of the money given in grants might need to be converted to debt.
Schools seem to just raise their prices to sop up 40% or more of the new money. Students get some benefit but they too are encouraged especially with grants to take the money and coast.
I,in a way was fortunate that I was alive when some city and state 4 year colleges were tuition free. I wouldn't have been able to go to school if not for this fact. This has changed over the last half century due I guess to high costs. i believe that perhaps even 4 year regular civic institutions should be free such as a high school education since just high school is no longer sufficient to get a decent job. Yes taxpayers would have to shell out more money, but perhaps with full tax breaks for the cost of a college education, it might even out for families.
1
To make this work, there should be a federal incentive to make course credit fully transferable to all federally supported public universities if the student meets admission standards. The university will have the advantage of examining the community college grades. Community colleges would be required to meet teaching, content and grading standards.
In many states it is already true that you can transfer CC credits to public state institutions. It is in Texas. You get full credit hours, but you only get 2.0 grade point average when you transfer.
1
There are already states that allow for PSEO (post-secondary enrollment options) for high school students, in which high school juniors and seniors can apply to receive high school graduation credits at the same time as attending college classes, at school district expense. This saves students who already know how to function at a high school level from extra years of tedium among students who will never learn to read, write, or understand basic math. Making this option more widely available would be a more efficient way to pay for community college degrees while squandering less money on less effective high schools, from which graduation is no assurance of basic competency. Making community college free for illiterate high school graduates merely generates more expense and renders community college a useless extension of our wasteful public education system.
25
The problem with these programs is that they are an admission that HS standards have dropped and that we now offer college credit for what was HS work 40 years ago. I remember the students I took Algebra II with in HS in the 70's who were seniors while I as a sophomore and they were there because the school demanded of them if they wanted a diploma, and there was none of this ridiculous extra credit and make up stuff either. You had to pass the test to pass the course.
I can't agree: I know of too many instances where the instructors for these dual-enrollment courses are vulnerable part-time adjuncts. They regularly report the same problem that high school teachers do: high school administrators, afraid their 'numbers' will be poor, pressure them to pass undeserving students, give credit for work far past deadlines, and generally teach a dumbed-down, super-permissive version of a college course. The instructor, who desperately needs to be hired back the following semester in order to pay his bills, knuckles under. Students who would have gotten a D at best or be referred to remedial courses in a real college setting 'pass' the class, earning college credit without having to rise to the level of doing college work. Then they get to a real college, enroll in a bunch of upper-level courses confident they'll fly through, and are shocked...SHOCKED...when they actually have to do the assigned work, good quality work, and submit it on time to pass. They go on probation or flunk out.
And, this is where one sees the first levels of inequity. The selected students are identified in elementary or middle school in posh neighborhoods, locking out equally bright minority /urban kids from this process.
Don't believe me, pull a demographic roster of high school students enrolled in concurrent college classes. Nevertheless, the selected o es are deserving.
But, look at the games the CCs & 4yr colleges play with these blue ribboned scholarship students. Instead of earning the free ride expected, they still put out hundreds/thousands each year in unnecessary new editions of textbooks, materials (film students must supply all of their own equipment and videotapes +), travel is usually under constraints-- no public transportation and/or student transport tickets--assignments -- museum or theater trips that require fees. It is never free.
Don't believe me, pull a demographic roster of high school students enrolled in concurrent college classes. Nevertheless, the selected o es are deserving.
But, look at the games the CCs & 4yr colleges play with these blue ribboned scholarship students. Instead of earning the free ride expected, they still put out hundreds/thousands each year in unnecessary new editions of textbooks, materials (film students must supply all of their own equipment and videotapes +), travel is usually under constraints-- no public transportation and/or student transport tickets--assignments -- museum or theater trips that require fees. It is never free.
Public schools already get students K-12. Before we set out to change public education into a K-14 program, shouldn't we make sure we aren't wasting any time in the first thirteen years?
11
My son was not accepted into a Medical University and spent a year in Community College. That year was so successful that he was accepted in
a University and later became a leading Veterinarian in Florida, where he is still practicing after 30 years.
Thank God for Community Colleges!
The fact that education of almost every sort can be limited to people who are wealthy is one of the most blatant crimes in America.
a University and later became a leading Veterinarian in Florida, where he is still practicing after 30 years.
Thank God for Community Colleges!
The fact that education of almost every sort can be limited to people who are wealthy is one of the most blatant crimes in America.
2
In the late 70's I went to Holyoke Community College for two years. It was, and probably still is referred to as HoCoCo, and the saying went "If your grades are low, and you're low on dough, go to HoCoCo"
I was very immature at the time and a four-year university would have overwhelmed me. My books cost more at HCC than my tuition. I graduated two years later with honors, in no small part to a wonderful philosophy professor who taught me the art of critical thinking.
All 60 credits transferred to the University of Massachusetts. By the time I went to UMass I was ready for the big school environment. I graduated with honors in Political Economy, and once again met a professor who took me under his wing and changed my life forever.
I would not have survived at UMass as an 18 year old. I can't imagine what my life would be like now if I didn't have the opportunity to cut my teeth at HoCoCo. I have since been a productive member of society and have a good life.
What better way to foster equal opportunity that to have free, or nearly free, community college education.
I was very immature at the time and a four-year university would have overwhelmed me. My books cost more at HCC than my tuition. I graduated two years later with honors, in no small part to a wonderful philosophy professor who taught me the art of critical thinking.
All 60 credits transferred to the University of Massachusetts. By the time I went to UMass I was ready for the big school environment. I graduated with honors in Political Economy, and once again met a professor who took me under his wing and changed my life forever.
I would not have survived at UMass as an 18 year old. I can't imagine what my life would be like now if I didn't have the opportunity to cut my teeth at HoCoCo. I have since been a productive member of society and have a good life.
What better way to foster equal opportunity that to have free, or nearly free, community college education.
3
Extremely crucial! This is absolutely the best investment the US can make in our future. This will really give a boost to employment and the economy, in general. It will go a long way to supporting the middle class. It will raise tax revenues. It may even increase voting percentages (oh, wait, Republicans don't want that.) There's nothing negative about this proposal. I hope everyone will get behind it!
1
Any thinking person should know that an educated citizenry makes for a better society for all. All Americans should have an opportunity for higher education, not just those whose parents can afford the ludicrous cost of college.
2
From yesterday's comments made in response to Tom Hank's op-Ed, community college's have an obvious transformational role in many of our lives. The personal stories are real, compelling and very moving, if not heroic.
All of which is very seductive vis a vis the administration's proposal. If its previous legislative programs are any guide (cf the ACA) however, the devil is in the details and caution and full transparency an obvious necessity.
Otherwise this looks a day late and a dollar short from when the Dems controlled Congress and the money was flowing out of every orifice. It's also an obvious and unfortunate political sacrificial offering viz the GOP and election cycle for those otherwise emotionally led.
Perhaps most centrally it avoids inefficiencies at the secondary school level, including content, duration, proficiency and preparation. All of which may or may not be of primary consideration to the teacher union apparatus.
All of which is very seductive vis a vis the administration's proposal. If its previous legislative programs are any guide (cf the ACA) however, the devil is in the details and caution and full transparency an obvious necessity.
Otherwise this looks a day late and a dollar short from when the Dems controlled Congress and the money was flowing out of every orifice. It's also an obvious and unfortunate political sacrificial offering viz the GOP and election cycle for those otherwise emotionally led.
Perhaps most centrally it avoids inefficiencies at the secondary school level, including content, duration, proficiency and preparation. All of which may or may not be of primary consideration to the teacher union apparatus.
3
the 20% graduation rate of 2 year community colleges is too high and we need to attract more unqualified and unmotivated students to lower it. The need for more teachers and more administrators (most unionized) to support this plan might be more of a reason that progressives support this. More union dues payers equal more donations to Democrat causes and more foot soldiers during elections.
3
Great idea, I hope that both parties can get together on this and develop a program that permits this idea to become workable and deliver the results expected. Let us start by selecting a few community colleges and open them to a few hundred candidates, let us observe for a short period how it all is working out, and only if the results are positive, only then should we extend the system to every state. In other words, let us set up a pilot operation for evaluation and final decision.
1
This proposal for "free" Community College reminds me of what happened to City University, Hunter College, and other NY city colleges when they became "free" to NYC residents in the 70s--a significant decline of the reputation of the university along with a general decline in the quality of the graduates.
My second reaction: any goods or service that is free will not be appreciated and would be over consumed until its marginal value is zero!
United States already have a number of programs that provides grants to needy students, and generous tax credits to those who need to pay. The problem that need to be "fixed" really has to do with the large number of for profit colleges that are charging high tuition for classes and training that have little or no return in the job market, and in the process, gouging students who are "afraid" or find it " inconvenient" to go to a regular college that is essentially free.
My second reaction: any goods or service that is free will not be appreciated and would be over consumed until its marginal value is zero!
United States already have a number of programs that provides grants to needy students, and generous tax credits to those who need to pay. The problem that need to be "fixed" really has to do with the large number of for profit colleges that are charging high tuition for classes and training that have little or no return in the job market, and in the process, gouging students who are "afraid" or find it " inconvenient" to go to a regular college that is essentially free.
5
So many of our high school students do not take their education seriously. I wonder how many of the students at community college take their educational opportunities seriously, and how many students will use the "free" education as another opportunity to party and avoid the responsibilities of productive adulthood. Party on.
7
I taught for many years at both the high school and community college level. I can tell you there is a huge difference. I was teaching at both levels for a few years. Many days I would leave my job after a day of teaching high school students and feel very down and depressed because I didn't feel the students appreciated or valued the education I was trying to give them. Once a week I would then teach the same subject matter at the local community college. At the end of the evening it was not uncommon for a student to shake my hand and thank me for the nights lesson. Nothing wrong with partying when you know you are doing something to further your education. It is possible to become wiser with age.
1
The typical community college student is not 18 years old and still living with mom and dad. I am retired from teaching many years in occupational training programs. Students in trades and occupational training programs tend to be in their late 20's, married, and raising a family. They've found that without a college education it's a struggle to make ends meet so they've returned to school to get an education and a better job. It's a sad fact that they must pay for the schooling they need to improve their lives while struggling to make ends meet. I hope that Republicans, the family values party, support a program that will make make families and individuals stronger, less stressed, and more productive to society by helping them pay for a college education. Sometimes just taking a certificate program and completing 12 courses or so is enough to get a foot in the door and start a new fulfilling career. At the age of 18 everyone is not so lucky to know what they want to be or to have parents who can afford to send them off to a 4 year university. There is a lot right about helping these students. This is a long term investment in America's future to boot.
3
This is an excellent idea that has little to no chance of becoming reality simply because President Obama proposed it. With an actively hostile Congress backed by haters of the President, they oppose everything, all the time. This opposition will hurt our country, our citizens and our economy, but the haters care little since President Obama proposed it.
1
And don't forget the real reason: Republicans FEAR an educated electorate. They actually think, and few that have a modicum of intellectual acumen buy the conservative lies.
2
How can a place to live, food to eat and bus fare represent "insurmountable" barriers because one chooses to attend college?
This is a bad idea. Half of the time spent by students at community colleges involves no credit remedial classes just to get them up to high school graduation standards. The taxpayer has paid once for the public education of its populace, it should not have to pay a second time.
Anytime a Democrat proposes free anything for all it reminds voters of what they don't like about Democrats.
I remember reading an article in the NYT a few months ago about a young man who described his experiences and issues trying to attend community college (I forget which borough.) He spoke of his personal life and the issues involved in affording tuition and balancing available time with the need to attend school.
Yet I couldn't help notice in the photos of this young man that accompanied the story about a thousand dollars of ink covering each arm.
This is a bad idea. Half of the time spent by students at community colleges involves no credit remedial classes just to get them up to high school graduation standards. The taxpayer has paid once for the public education of its populace, it should not have to pay a second time.
Anytime a Democrat proposes free anything for all it reminds voters of what they don't like about Democrats.
I remember reading an article in the NYT a few months ago about a young man who described his experiences and issues trying to attend community college (I forget which borough.) He spoke of his personal life and the issues involved in affording tuition and balancing available time with the need to attend school.
Yet I couldn't help notice in the photos of this young man that accompanied the story about a thousand dollars of ink covering each arm.
18
Yes, Paul, it is about personal choices as well, and very few of our politicians are willing to seriously challenge people to begin making better ones.
I listened to a conversation yesterday describing the problems a young woman had trying to finish her Psychology degree. She was one semester short of graduating. She had 6 children- four of them before her 25th birthday. She and her husband drive school buses because it suits their schedules and is easy work to obtain. She says she needs 'help' so that she can complete her degree and get a decent job. Issues of birth control, their current dependence on government programs, their inability to find suitable housing on their current salaries, transportation and insurance, etc. were all brought forward. In the end, she wanted someone else to solve the problems of their poor life choices.
I listened to a conversation yesterday describing the problems a young woman had trying to finish her Psychology degree. She was one semester short of graduating. She had 6 children- four of them before her 25th birthday. She and her husband drive school buses because it suits their schedules and is easy work to obtain. She says she needs 'help' so that she can complete her degree and get a decent job. Issues of birth control, their current dependence on government programs, their inability to find suitable housing on their current salaries, transportation and insurance, etc. were all brought forward. In the end, she wanted someone else to solve the problems of their poor life choices.
The highest need students and their families have a substantial challenge meeting modest living expenses even without considering the extra costs associated with pursuing a college degree or certificate. Beyond tuition, fees, books and supplies, child care and transportation often present significant obstacles. Among direct costs, many now need to purchase laptops. At the same time to have a reasonable chance to succeed, students must limit the time spent working.
Whatever the reasons are for remedial/developmental coursework, it seems that providing and funding effective means of providing it are good public investments. If additional education increases the knowledge, skills, confidence and productivity of students ( of all age ranges), it will increase not only their incomes, taxes, and social contributions to their communities, but it could be expected to increase the productivity of others with whom they participate in the labor force.
Whatever the reasons are for remedial/developmental coursework, it seems that providing and funding effective means of providing it are good public investments. If additional education increases the knowledge, skills, confidence and productivity of students ( of all age ranges), it will increase not only their incomes, taxes, and social contributions to their communities, but it could be expected to increase the productivity of others with whom they participate in the labor force.
1
This is a great idea in principle but one has to be careful lest it becomes a giveaway to the college industry. First of all the colleges have to teach what colleges are supposed to do: on a college (university) level as they are post-secondary schools. Teaching remedial English and math to semi-literate freshmen, as many colleges to do, is not their job. High schools have to provide real education, not teach "to the test" of the state. Two year college should teach skills that provide ability to work on a technician/assistant level, such as nursing, computers, etc. Four year community college should lead to similar achievement on a bachelor's level. The taxpayers' money should support education in fields needed for national economy, not 101 courses in some fields that do not qualify one even to pump gas or flip burgers.
Best there should be a public-private partnership with industry which would guarantee a job to a worthy student if he/she graduates with certain minimum grades. The cost of education could be then subsidized by the industry and the government and the industry could be rewarded with tax cuts.
Best there should be a public-private partnership with industry which would guarantee a job to a worthy student if he/she graduates with certain minimum grades. The cost of education could be then subsidized by the industry and the government and the industry could be rewarded with tax cuts.
2
the problem is, it's almost impossible to anticipate the job market. Even many STEM fields, touted as 'essential' to the economy, are graduating majors for whom there are NO JOBS. (there have been many studies to this effect, and a good article summing them up from last March on the myth of the science and engineering shortage). Not to mention all the computer science majors who graduate only to find there are no jobs available.
The Dems raison d'etre seems to be how many privately funded programs can they shift over to govt funded programs.
1
America truly is becoming the land of the free. Free food, free housing, free health insurance, free cell phones, free citizenship, free college education, etc., etc, etc. We use to believe in the axiom, "Do it the old fashion way - Earn it". Making things "free" diminishes not only the achievement, but the individual's own desire to succeed or fail based on how much they want to work and personally invest for a higher goal. CCs already cost on average only about one-fourth what a four year college costs. Make a college education, and in this case CCs, more affordable by reducing the interest on student loans or tie in some National Service requirements for some loan forgiveness.
8
Most of these schools used to be free, when they were first created. Budget cuts at the state and local levels have forced them to charge tuition, regardless of how relatively low. Conservatives always want to go back to "the good old days." Well, in this case, those days included free CCs and even free four year degrees at the CUNY schools in NYC. Should I start naming the illustrious graduates of those programs, or do you think they're all freeloaders too?
2
Name anyone you want. I doubt that anyone you could list succeeded because they went to a free college. Motivation and hard work will overcome most obstacles. Pell grants, loans and working while going to school, allow anyone to afford a community college. After that, the above mentioned motivation and hard work, will help you succeed. Most Community Colleges are relatively inexpensive and can be covered by grants and loans for the most economically challenged. Also, read the following article, which may help give you some additional insight into this problem: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/should-community-colleges-really-be-free/
1
I could support this but only if an added tax were included in the passage of any legislation. let's see how much support it gets when the price tag is attached and needs to be paid up front, before the program begins. Let's not put off paying for it later. Let's not argue that the added education will produce more income and more taxes to pay for it later.
Maybe it shouldn't be completely free. Maybe student need to have "some skin in the game" before they register for classes.
Maybe this will only mean that community colleges will raise tuition since "somebody else will pay."
Maybe this should only apply to community college tuition after a year past high school graduation. How many students will just use it to expand the fun-and-games they were enjoying in high school?
In the 19th century, an 8th grade graduation did well. In the 20th century a high school diploma was required. In the 21st century an addition time spent in higher education would be well worth the effort.
Maybe it shouldn't be completely free. Maybe student need to have "some skin in the game" before they register for classes.
Maybe this will only mean that community colleges will raise tuition since "somebody else will pay."
Maybe this should only apply to community college tuition after a year past high school graduation. How many students will just use it to expand the fun-and-games they were enjoying in high school?
In the 19th century, an 8th grade graduation did well. In the 20th century a high school diploma was required. In the 21st century an addition time spent in higher education would be well worth the effort.
1
Your editorial fails to recognize an even greater challenge to community colleges than allowing financial access. Most community colleges have modest tuition fees easily within reach of many working students. The bigger problem is that community colleges are confronting a massive identity crisis, exemplified by Tom Hanks's well written op-ed earlier this week. Hanks reminisced about how much he enjoyed his community college experience in the early 70s, with highly motivated students who included veterans, housewives, and blue collar workers seeking their first taste of college. The courses were rigorous and included a solid grounding in the liberal arts, all at a bargain price. It sounds wonderful. Sadly, it is not what community colleges are today. Many are dumping grounds for state political appointees, have a preponderance of remedial courses on how to read and write, and a bumper crop of functionally illiterate matriculants and graduates. Do community colleges want to be adult day care programs, or serious centers for learning? Before pumping billions of dollars into them, that question needs to be answered.
29
I've seen several analyses that correlate success in college with how much "skin in the game" the students have. That is, students who have to pay at least SOME of the expense get BETTER grades than those who pay nothing out of their own pockets. I wonder if this will be another well-intentioned program with unintended consequences.
13
We already routinely bail out kids who have failed or dropped out. Pell grants provide tuition plus $$ for other things. This program would merely free the student from any tuition cost and leave the pell grants for use for other things, about $6,000. This would be a great help to the motivated student who also works thus making it more likely they could finish without debt. If done in a vocational area or combined with apprenticeship programs they could be in a lucrative trade within two years.
But work is key to all of this. Sustained contribution, skin in the game, by what ever name one wishes. Otherwise the schools up their fees and cost and take 40% of the new money and the unmotivated students take another year to .... postpone work.
But work is key to all of this. Sustained contribution, skin in the game, by what ever name one wishes. Otherwise the schools up their fees and cost and take 40% of the new money and the unmotivated students take another year to .... postpone work.
2
I did not pay a penny, my parents did, and the taxpayers of CA at the time did, but I was at the tip top of a class of 20,000. so much for your skin in the game theory.
1
The more I think about this plan the better it sounds. Even a student with a poor educational background can get a jump start that will encourage him/her to continue on their own tab (student loan -- which also needs reform).
The first two years at a university are essentially the same program as a community college in the first two years; so it is a relevant step in education.
Tangible skills rebuttals/questions are short sighted. The difference between a trade school and a university is the intangibles -- interpersonal communication, idea development, logic, argumentation, history, humanities, arts all train the mind to see what is beyond their nose; my dear Watson.
If a student needs more time after not successfully capitalizing on the money incentives, he/she is in better shape to repeat classes successfully on their own dime -- hopefully a reformed student loan program.
The first two years at a university are essentially the same program as a community college in the first two years; so it is a relevant step in education.
Tangible skills rebuttals/questions are short sighted. The difference between a trade school and a university is the intangibles -- interpersonal communication, idea development, logic, argumentation, history, humanities, arts all train the mind to see what is beyond their nose; my dear Watson.
If a student needs more time after not successfully capitalizing on the money incentives, he/she is in better shape to repeat classes successfully on their own dime -- hopefully a reformed student loan program.
3
Am I missing something here? There is valid criticism of this proposal because low-income students do not need free community college: it already exists through Pell Grants. The editorial dismisses this critique by pointing out the additional costs of housing, food, etc. The new proposal will not cover these expenses either. All it will do is shift money away from Pell Grants--which low-income students can now use to go to four-year institutions, which are much better at producing graduate students with well-paying jobs than community colleges.
9
This new program would be a "first dollar program," meaning that it would cover tuition costs up front (as opposed to last dollar, where it would cover only costs not met by Pell or other grants). That way, Pell-eligible students will still receive their Pell Grants and can apply them to those additional costs of housing, food, transportation, etc.
1
This is a worthy proposal and I challenge politicians of all persuasions to find other less valuable and potentially areas of spending to cut in order to finance this proposal, perhaps an equal and commensurate cut in military spending?
3
I support making community colleges free, but too many of them are still "Junior Colleges." I work in higher education and believe that too many community colleges send on students to four-year institutions who are underprepared for the rigor of four-year colleges. Transfer students from community colleges go on academic probation in their first year at four-year institutions—their junior year—at much higher rates than students who start at four-year institutions as freshman. This is not to say that we don't have terrific students who come from community colleges who want to stay close to home, save money, and get their associates degree first. The academic rigor at community colleges is suspect, and the instructors and administrators at these schools need to stop pretending they are doing an adequate job of preparing students who want to go on and get a bachelor's degree.
31
Your concerns are not unreasonable, but given what I have experienced in formal job interviews and casual conservations with teaching applicants recently, I have the same suspicions about the four year state school in my locale. Perhaps the pressure is also on there for student "success" (a.k.a. social promotion adapted for college use).
4-yr institutions need to review their own houses before criticizing CCs. Too often, there is no articulation between the two. Students entering 4-yr schools with an AA degree are mistreated, forced to retake courses, u less the state legislature-- such as in NJ, has forced the state 4 year colleges to stop gaming the system, forcing repeat courses and running up the costs. It's college, not corporate America. The shenanigans 4yr schools, especially state schools, pull are postured grandstanding and ways to make money on the backs of our kids and earn hefty salaries for president and professors lucky enough to be tenured.
" The academic rigor at community colleges is suspect"
CC students are "underprepared for the rigor of four-year colleges."
I teach at a community college. Due to our community a high number of students transfer to four year schools. Studies done over a number of years show that our students have higher grades when they transfer than the grades of students who were first and second year students at transfer institutions.
This does not mean that cc education is "rigorous." It is not, though there are excellent honors' programs, just as there are remedial programs that are sometimes successful. What the statistics show is that education at four year schools, - and our students transfer to good and sometimes elite schools, - lacks rigor.
To single out CC's for a lack of rigor is prejudicial and frankly ridiculous. The lack of rigor, the decline in critical thinking, the reduction of writing requirements, and such, is across the board.
I would have thought this was common knowledge.
The ASAP program is uniquely successful. A glowing model. However it is expensive in comparison with paying tuition for a student - it includes a great deal of counseling. ASAP achieved success by applying strict demands and standards, for example having to see counselors regularly, with no excuses. It paid for transportation, which would be harder to do for the many suburban and ex-urban cc's.
Above all it was demanding, keep up or you are out. I don't know if it is still as demanding.
CC students are "underprepared for the rigor of four-year colleges."
I teach at a community college. Due to our community a high number of students transfer to four year schools. Studies done over a number of years show that our students have higher grades when they transfer than the grades of students who were first and second year students at transfer institutions.
This does not mean that cc education is "rigorous." It is not, though there are excellent honors' programs, just as there are remedial programs that are sometimes successful. What the statistics show is that education at four year schools, - and our students transfer to good and sometimes elite schools, - lacks rigor.
To single out CC's for a lack of rigor is prejudicial and frankly ridiculous. The lack of rigor, the decline in critical thinking, the reduction of writing requirements, and such, is across the board.
I would have thought this was common knowledge.
The ASAP program is uniquely successful. A glowing model. However it is expensive in comparison with paying tuition for a student - it includes a great deal of counseling. ASAP achieved success by applying strict demands and standards, for example having to see counselors regularly, with no excuses. It paid for transportation, which would be harder to do for the many suburban and ex-urban cc's.
Above all it was demanding, keep up or you are out. I don't know if it is still as demanding.
From 1960 to 1983 Community College in California had NO tuition. Students paid a parking fee (less than $20 per semester), and bought their books, which were of course much less expensive then. Why is everyone acting as if this is a brand new idea? Of course, Community College was never free. It was paid for by taxes. Nevertheless, the quality was good (many transferred to UC or other good four year colleges), and there were no barriers of money, age or GPA. Both academics and vocational training, including retraining, were offered, as today. For poor people, $3,330 is a LOT of money. One other thing, most students don't finish in 2 years because they are adults working full time and attending school half-time or less. They have family responsibilities. Only some CC attendees are just out of high school. Insisting on a quick graduation time as a condition of existence is unreasonable. Keep Community Colleges available and economical. Free to the student is not a new idea but it is a good one.
7
I think the federal government should just grant Khanacademy accreditation status so kids can get their diplomas for free! The cost of college education would come down drastically.
2
Like education for the children of illegal aliens, Obama is long on good ideas but short on paying for them. If he proposed a 1% tax on stock sales, one one could have faith that he was not just trying to provide another free ride for Wall Street, an larger speaking fees when he retires in two years.
3
Well, you misrepresent certain facts as usual:
1) Nothing if FREE - Taxpayers will foot the bill
2) Congress will not underwrite it. The TAX PAYERS will
The real problem is the primary school system is not doing a good job at teaching our young kids on how to be proficient in RRR as well as teaching them how to be productive citizens.
So the answer is to extend primary school by 2 years (by what you call college)?
1) Nothing if FREE - Taxpayers will foot the bill
2) Congress will not underwrite it. The TAX PAYERS will
The real problem is the primary school system is not doing a good job at teaching our young kids on how to be proficient in RRR as well as teaching them how to be productive citizens.
So the answer is to extend primary school by 2 years (by what you call college)?
7
A free college education program is an excellent idea. But as a former teacher and corporate training manager, I hope the curriculum these people will study includes a complete range of liberal arts. The narrow focus of so many current students gives them expertise in one specific field at the expense of learning the interrelationships of all the disciplines. The most competent engineer is hobbled by his inability to write clearly or understand the nuances of client needs in engineering projects. A potential English teacher, well read and able to express himself in print cannot be optimally effective unless he knows history and even mathematics. William Blake wrote, "if the doors to perception were cleansed, everything would appear as it is - infinite." With knowledge expanding in all arts and sciences at accelerating speed, today's students need grounding in a wider variety of educational experiences.
3
If this is done correctly. it could be a tremendous boost to the economy and help young people get a start in life. However, it must not be just remedial high school.
Many community colleges teach courses that the students should have mastered in the 10th grade. This should not be. Coursework should be equivalent to that in a 4 year college. If they need remedial work, then call it for what it is, but it is not college.
Germany has an excellent industrial training program that prepares high school graduates for highly skilled, high tech careers. We desperately need these types workers for the coming age of robots and automation. I for one would like to see my federal dollars be used to fund these types of training programs. Let's face it. As beneficial as a broad, liberal arts academic program is in equipping the mind for life, many kids just aren't going to do well studying comparative literature. They need job skills and they need courses they can relate to. They don't have the intellectual curiosity that was more common in kids 50 years ago. They want a direct payback instead of the promise of growing into an intellectual heavyweight. They want to get that piece of paper, get out and get a job.
Many community colleges teach courses that the students should have mastered in the 10th grade. This should not be. Coursework should be equivalent to that in a 4 year college. If they need remedial work, then call it for what it is, but it is not college.
Germany has an excellent industrial training program that prepares high school graduates for highly skilled, high tech careers. We desperately need these types workers for the coming age of robots and automation. I for one would like to see my federal dollars be used to fund these types of training programs. Let's face it. As beneficial as a broad, liberal arts academic program is in equipping the mind for life, many kids just aren't going to do well studying comparative literature. They need job skills and they need courses they can relate to. They don't have the intellectual curiosity that was more common in kids 50 years ago. They want a direct payback instead of the promise of growing into an intellectual heavyweight. They want to get that piece of paper, get out and get a job.
6
This is a good initiative and states should support it. I like to add in the requirements - a close partnership between the community college and local industry and business associations. This will ensure the graduates of community colleges will be employed by the local industry and business. As the unemployment number is going down, proper implementation of this scheme will help industry to save money and improve productivity.
2
President Obama's vision for America is enhanced by this latest intelligent proposal. It goes without saying that an educated, employable populace
will hold our place in the global economy, and that without it we'll be mired in
mediocrity. In these times of $50,000 annual tuitions, insurmountable student debt and large scale income inequality, leaving our young people to fend for themselves guarantees dependency and despondency. It took us a long time to
enlist our female resources; now it's time to enlist the less financially fortunate.
Enabling higher education for the talented and hopeful makes moral, as well as economic sense.
will hold our place in the global economy, and that without it we'll be mired in
mediocrity. In these times of $50,000 annual tuitions, insurmountable student debt and large scale income inequality, leaving our young people to fend for themselves guarantees dependency and despondency. It took us a long time to
enlist our female resources; now it's time to enlist the less financially fortunate.
Enabling higher education for the talented and hopeful makes moral, as well as economic sense.
5
Hello Wendy S. Aronson, You are so right. I support a free community college education for all so strongly. Education trains minds, opens doors, inspires confidence, builds humanity.
1
This seems like a reasonable investment at a relatively modest cost (about 1/3rd the cost of bailing out AIG).
As my parents were moderately affluent, I was able to go to a good college and eventually pay off my student loans, and thereafter became a contributor to the tax base via my continued employment. If even a fraction of the program's beneficiaries do the same, I could easily see this as a long-term no-net-cost program, as people with higher education have higher incomes, thereby contributing more to local, state, and federal tax revenues.
As my parents were moderately affluent, I was able to go to a good college and eventually pay off my student loans, and thereafter became a contributor to the tax base via my continued employment. If even a fraction of the program's beneficiaries do the same, I could easily see this as a long-term no-net-cost program, as people with higher education have higher incomes, thereby contributing more to local, state, and federal tax revenues.
2
"As rules are written for the national program, the White House and Congress must make sure that only institutions with a demonstrable commitment to helping students graduate are rewarded."
Exactly the kind of things the White House and the Congress have monumental difficulty doing.
Take for example the 27 states that have opted out of the ACA exchanges.
Exactly the kind of things the White House and the Congress have monumental difficulty doing.
Take for example the 27 states that have opted out of the ACA exchanges.
Support for community colleges should in no way come from funds which would have gone to colleges and universities (city, state). Doing this will defeat the purpose of the reform.
1
Would anyone believe that an opinion piece be against an Obama idea put forth asking for the country to back his proposal of free college education for anyone who wants it, billions of dollars more for food and other assistance for poorer Americans, billions for the reconstruction of blighted cities and on and on?
It all comes down to the liberal Utopian ideas paid for by the hard working, already over taxed Amerian.
It all comes down to the liberal Utopian ideas paid for by the hard working, already over taxed Amerian.
5
If this policy passes you will see pressure on professors to give students better grades so that the schools can keep receiving tuition payments by the government for students that can't make the grade.
7
From Harvard on down to the cc's grade inflation is a real and pressing problem today. When an administrator calls a teacher in, no matter the level, and say, "What can you do to see this student succeeds in your class what do you think the message is to the teacher. It is lower the standards and keep lowering them until the student passes. In our society, all students are above average even when they are not above average!!!
1
Reason had a great take on this "free" college program:
"Right off the bat I see a huge incentive for further grade inflation for community colleges. Remember, of course, the free money getting tossed around is going to college faculty and administrators, not to students. It's not the students being subsidized, it's the college. So they're going to do everything in their power to keep these students attending, even if it results in students leaving college with associate's degrees they can barely read, which will subsequently devalue the degrees in the eyes of employers.
Okay, so why is this program needed at all? If the White House's position is that community colleges are accessible and affordable, why a new program? ..So the White House is promoting a program funded by taxpayers to subsidize—wait, I mean further subsidize..
This program is not a subsidy for students. It's a subsidy for faculty and college level administrative bloat.
Ultimately what will happen is that the subsidies will be consumed by this bloat and community colleges will not be able to expand to actually accommodate additional students, so we'll see more students being forced to wait, or tuition costs will quickly rise above the administration's subsidy (which doesn't seem to have a cap, but obviously is going to have to or god help us all) in order to get more money to actually pay for the classes the students need. This is exactly what's happening at four-year colleges already."
"Right off the bat I see a huge incentive for further grade inflation for community colleges. Remember, of course, the free money getting tossed around is going to college faculty and administrators, not to students. It's not the students being subsidized, it's the college. So they're going to do everything in their power to keep these students attending, even if it results in students leaving college with associate's degrees they can barely read, which will subsequently devalue the degrees in the eyes of employers.
Okay, so why is this program needed at all? If the White House's position is that community colleges are accessible and affordable, why a new program? ..So the White House is promoting a program funded by taxpayers to subsidize—wait, I mean further subsidize..
This program is not a subsidy for students. It's a subsidy for faculty and college level administrative bloat.
Ultimately what will happen is that the subsidies will be consumed by this bloat and community colleges will not be able to expand to actually accommodate additional students, so we'll see more students being forced to wait, or tuition costs will quickly rise above the administration's subsidy (which doesn't seem to have a cap, but obviously is going to have to or god help us all) in order to get more money to actually pay for the classes the students need. This is exactly what's happening at four-year colleges already."
3
Think again, if you are thinking high salaries go to faculty. With most faculty adjunct and administrators refusing to hire the best and most qualified faculty often work massive amounts of overloads just to make poverty level incomes. Point the finger at the real culprits, administrators!
1
So you obviously want to see the home mortgage deduction eliminated because it inflates the cost of the homes in America.
Tuition and access are only parts of the problem.
A bigger problem may be the ludicrous cost of textbooks, in large part a result of "churning" by corrupted teachers and unscrupulous publishers.
A bigger problem may be the ludicrous cost of textbooks, in large part a result of "churning" by corrupted teachers and unscrupulous publishers.
2
The Republicans in Congress will vote against it because they don't want an educated populace,for an educated populace will not be so easy to deceive.
3
As someone who helped found one of the largest community colleges in the nation, I must sound a warning before all of the good feelings overtake logic and reason on this issue.
Here is a plan to be considered:
1. Reduce the overburden of cc administrators. The real money in education is paid out to administrators. Makes this not happen in the future.
2. Fill the classrooms with teachers with as many degrees as possible and I don't mean education degrees that take a few weeks to acquire. I mean Academic degrees in subject matter.
3. Pay these Academic degreed teachers a good wage. Today the rule of administrators is hire cheap and pay cheap. This must be reversed.
4. Dedicate the money that must be found to achieve the President's goal of his "Edu.-the-People-for-Free" not to the general fund of institutions, but to specific items with teachers as the first category!
Believe me when I say, with 40 years of teaching and administering at the college and University levels, administrators are looking at the President's plan and licking their lips at the windfall they think they can use for salaries or buildings instead of instruction.
It was a Republican president who once said that the best education is a teacher at one end of a slippery elm log and a student at the other! How far higher education has strayed from that ideal!
Here is a plan to be considered:
1. Reduce the overburden of cc administrators. The real money in education is paid out to administrators. Makes this not happen in the future.
2. Fill the classrooms with teachers with as many degrees as possible and I don't mean education degrees that take a few weeks to acquire. I mean Academic degrees in subject matter.
3. Pay these Academic degreed teachers a good wage. Today the rule of administrators is hire cheap and pay cheap. This must be reversed.
4. Dedicate the money that must be found to achieve the President's goal of his "Edu.-the-People-for-Free" not to the general fund of institutions, but to specific items with teachers as the first category!
Believe me when I say, with 40 years of teaching and administering at the college and University levels, administrators are looking at the President's plan and licking their lips at the windfall they think they can use for salaries or buildings instead of instruction.
It was a Republican president who once said that the best education is a teacher at one end of a slippery elm log and a student at the other! How far higher education has strayed from that ideal!
33
The failure in the American educational system is not at the college level. We have some of the best universities in the world that attract the word's top talent. We have run-of-the mill universities that do a good job, provided one chooses a major correctly (nursing, engineering, business...good; psychology, women's studies... not so much). The community colleges are also a bright spot in our system that offer certifications, general education at a low to free cost, and classes from accounting to Thai cooking. People have a choice on where they attend college and schools compete for good students.
The failure in our system is K-12. Free community college for everyone is not going to help the high school kid who dropped out at 16 and has two kids by 19 and realizes the more kids she has, the bigger her welfare income. It is not going to help those who have a "diploma", but cannot read at a 7th grade level. What we need is to break the monopoly of the teachers union and allow school choice. Allow school boards to hire and fire at will and pay on merit. Require a district to provide an equal voucher to each child in its district, good at any school public or private. Schools outside one's attendance zone can decide whether to accept the applicant or not.
If this is done, we will see a remarkable transformation, particularly among the lower classes. Handing out money in Obama's vote buying scheme will do nothing. It is too late by then.
The failure in our system is K-12. Free community college for everyone is not going to help the high school kid who dropped out at 16 and has two kids by 19 and realizes the more kids she has, the bigger her welfare income. It is not going to help those who have a "diploma", but cannot read at a 7th grade level. What we need is to break the monopoly of the teachers union and allow school choice. Allow school boards to hire and fire at will and pay on merit. Require a district to provide an equal voucher to each child in its district, good at any school public or private. Schools outside one's attendance zone can decide whether to accept the applicant or not.
If this is done, we will see a remarkable transformation, particularly among the lower classes. Handing out money in Obama's vote buying scheme will do nothing. It is too late by then.
5
The failures in education are not in the education system so much in the education system as it is in our society itself. Thinking, as the writer seems to, that education starts at K is a large part of the problem. The evidence is clear that much more attention is needed at or even before birth (training the parents) and that such programs will yield amazing results. We need to restructure our thinking about the actual role of education and how it fits in and how we as a society respond to the challenge.
That said, the CC proposal aims well, and deserves support once the kinks are worked out.
That said, the CC proposal aims well, and deserves support once the kinks are worked out.
2
As a retired college professor, I laud President Obama's proposal to reduce the costs of attending community college. I spent my last decade teaching at Stony Brook University (SBU) where a significant number of community college graduates transfer. And there the problem of student debt due to increased college costs still exists. Since I've been at SBU, all governors from Mario Cuomo to George Pataki to now Governor Andrew Cuomo have cut state support resulting in a dramatic rise in tuition and related fees and the associated problem in soaring student debt on a population (many are first generation sons and daughters of immigrant families) that can least afford it. It's time for Mr. Obama to urge state governors like Mr. Cuomo and their legislatures to live up to their professed commitment to public education by reversing this trend and lowering the costs of attending high-quality public universities like Stony Brook.
4
This is an excellent idea.
As for cost.
9 million students at an average cost of $3800 per student comes out to about
34.2 billion /year.
Not taxing unrealized capital gains at death costs about 43 billion /year.
You don't need to have attended community college to know 43 B is greater than 34.2 B.
As for cost.
9 million students at an average cost of $3800 per student comes out to about
34.2 billion /year.
Not taxing unrealized capital gains at death costs about 43 billion /year.
You don't need to have attended community college to know 43 B is greater than 34.2 B.
1
If we tax unrealized capital gains how will people pay these taxes? Are you saying they should take out loans say against a home that has capital gains or a stock that has capital gains? What if the value of these assets go down, should the government pay a capital gains rebate? I agree, Mr. Obama's proposal is a good idea but taxing unrealized capital gains is not the answer.
1
I said tax unrealized capital gains at DEATH.
Suppose X buys a stock worth $10,000.
When he dies stock is worth $50,000.
Y inherits the stock and later sells it for $80,000.
Y pays a capital gains tax on $80,000 - $50,000 = $30000
The gain in value from $10,000 to $50,000 escapes all taxation.
Suppose X buys a stock worth $10,000.
When he dies stock is worth $50,000.
Y inherits the stock and later sells it for $80,000.
Y pays a capital gains tax on $80,000 - $50,000 = $30000
The gain in value from $10,000 to $50,000 escapes all taxation.
Pay for this by shifting funding from enormous, football and research centric university systems. Every state supports some version of Enormous State U. These behemoth systems work harder on promotion, marketing, football and self aggrandizing research than they do on education and instructors. The result is a constant flood of alumni cash to be used on expansion, more research, and a higher paid coach. They market to the privileged, promote themselves as elite, and hoard cash that could be used for community colleges that don't compete for national titles.
5
We have privatized education and socialized sports. Our competitors have socialized education and privatized sports. Which model do you think will register the most patents per capita in the next half-century? Of course, there's always the chance that gladiatorial combat will combine with McPanem to make the public indifferent to progress, and American athletes will rule the world in colosseums everywhere.
2
One of the great values of community colleges is the opportunities they offer to young people who drift through public school systems, inattentive and unnoticed, graduating with poor basic skills and unprepared for the demands of employment today. This should not be the case, but there are vested interests that perpetuate weak public schools as exemplified by the resistance to Common Core. Many of these young people have a rude awakening and seek another chance. It is to everyone's advantage to give it to them.
2
It is to everyone's advantage that those students seek it out, as opposed to knowing all along that it will be given to them. Missing that distinction virtually assures all that those who drift and are still handed degrees can continue to drift unchecked versus getting their act together.
2
The point at the end of this article - about college today echoing the evolution of free public high school in the 19th century - is spot on.
You hear a lot about the lack of return on investment in college these days, and that's (financially) true - a majority of students find themselves in substantial debt without really being credentialed for any kind of high-paying job. From this, though, far too many people have been suggesting that it's not worth going to college at all, but it's the opposite. College in and of itself is no longer a credential, but a prerequisite (or, at minimum, an associate's degree is), like high school used to be, for any kind of successful future. The era we live in is one in which graduate school will continue to push harder and harder into the cultural and economic place that college used to inhabit, and that makes the fiscal inaccessibility of college today to so many students all the more alarming.
Of course, plenty of people will say that it's absurd that a person should need a graduate degree just to be competitive in today's world, but I think those people are looking at it wrong - if, in say twenty years, 80+% of Americans go to college and 25+% go to graduate school, wouldn't that be a good thing for our society?
(Although I have to say that from my experience in college, there can be an alarming lack of rigor in even fairly highly rated schools. The resources for a great education are still there, but it's also too easy to skate by.)
You hear a lot about the lack of return on investment in college these days, and that's (financially) true - a majority of students find themselves in substantial debt without really being credentialed for any kind of high-paying job. From this, though, far too many people have been suggesting that it's not worth going to college at all, but it's the opposite. College in and of itself is no longer a credential, but a prerequisite (or, at minimum, an associate's degree is), like high school used to be, for any kind of successful future. The era we live in is one in which graduate school will continue to push harder and harder into the cultural and economic place that college used to inhabit, and that makes the fiscal inaccessibility of college today to so many students all the more alarming.
Of course, plenty of people will say that it's absurd that a person should need a graduate degree just to be competitive in today's world, but I think those people are looking at it wrong - if, in say twenty years, 80+% of Americans go to college and 25+% go to graduate school, wouldn't that be a good thing for our society?
(Although I have to say that from my experience in college, there can be an alarming lack of rigor in even fairly highly rated schools. The resources for a great education are still there, but it's also too easy to skate by.)
3
The inspiring stories that have been published and shared in recent days have served to highlight the importance of community colleges in opening up opportunities for individuals who need more time to develop and grow before they can reach their potential. Tom Hanks' op-ed piece yesterday brought out a slew of comments, all with similar stories, of how individuals went on to higher learning and success after being inspired by their attendance at community colleges. Many said that at the time they attended the schools were free, or very low cost.
The community college here in Wake County, North Carolina has been growing by leaps and bounds. I've worked in some programs there that have been offered to enhance English as a Second Language skills and job seeking skills, so not as part of the general teaching population, but I've seen my students and so many others take advantage of the vast assortment of classes that are offered, once they have the skills to succeed or the knowledge of what programs they want to enter. Many of them have gone on to jobs or further study.
Expanding educational opportunities is essential to leveling the playing field and to economic growth. Congress should give serious consideration and support to President Obama's proposal if it is serious about improving the economic outlook for the people of this country who are being left behind.
The community college here in Wake County, North Carolina has been growing by leaps and bounds. I've worked in some programs there that have been offered to enhance English as a Second Language skills and job seeking skills, so not as part of the general teaching population, but I've seen my students and so many others take advantage of the vast assortment of classes that are offered, once they have the skills to succeed or the knowledge of what programs they want to enter. Many of them have gone on to jobs or further study.
Expanding educational opportunities is essential to leveling the playing field and to economic growth. Congress should give serious consideration and support to President Obama's proposal if it is serious about improving the economic outlook for the people of this country who are being left behind.
6
I wanted to make an additional point with respect to my previous post. My experience with "totally free" programs (which we all know that someone is paying for) is that attendance and motivation are affected when there is no investment by the participants. I think the program would work better if there were some outlay on the part of those being offered the opportunity to attend classes, which could be refunded, if the classes were successfully completed. Loans could be offered for those unable to pay, or some sliding scale invoked. It is too easy to drop out or find excuses not to attend when nothing has been expected from those signing up for the programs.
15% graduation rate and 57% complete a 2 year program in 3 years? What?
What about trade schools and vocational training for non-college bound students? We need plumbers, electricians, electronics, computer, and automotive technicians, too. Will this be added to the educational program? Not everyone is suited to college or wants that credential.
Working in the trades provides a quicker and higher return. A college education takes years for the salaries to hit maturity. AND... there is the issue of available jobs for college graduates. Why is there no mention of the unemployment rate for recent graduates? Unemployment rates are 18.1% for those under 25 years old. High school grads are over 25.5%. What's the plan here?
Even if we increase the throughput and graduation numbers, where will they work? Fast Food and convenience store don't require any college education. Time to be realistic and level our expectations and to address more than just the symptoms.
What about trade schools and vocational training for non-college bound students? We need plumbers, electricians, electronics, computer, and automotive technicians, too. Will this be added to the educational program? Not everyone is suited to college or wants that credential.
Working in the trades provides a quicker and higher return. A college education takes years for the salaries to hit maturity. AND... there is the issue of available jobs for college graduates. Why is there no mention of the unemployment rate for recent graduates? Unemployment rates are 18.1% for those under 25 years old. High school grads are over 25.5%. What's the plan here?
Even if we increase the throughput and graduation numbers, where will they work? Fast Food and convenience store don't require any college education. Time to be realistic and level our expectations and to address more than just the symptoms.
5
Sounds good but being a Federal program, one has to ask "how and how much".
Will this flood Community Colleges with young people who cannot read? What will be done with them? Remedial programs? Is that the purpose of this program, to repair a failed secondary education system?
Does this, then, allow the Federal Government to meddle in programs, classes, and everything else that is part and parcel of a college education because the schools will be receiving federal funds? Is that something that we really need?
On the surface it seems like a good idea, I can't help but wonder how they are going to screw it up.
Will this flood Community Colleges with young people who cannot read? What will be done with them? Remedial programs? Is that the purpose of this program, to repair a failed secondary education system?
Does this, then, allow the Federal Government to meddle in programs, classes, and everything else that is part and parcel of a college education because the schools will be receiving federal funds? Is that something that we really need?
On the surface it seems like a good idea, I can't help but wonder how they are going to screw it up.
2
The G.I. Bill after World War II paid for everything. We had a charge account at the campus bookstore. But I think it's fair to say that the veterans protected the G.I. Bill. We didn't spend money like drunken sailors, but were very serious about our education. And read somewhere that for every dollar spent, there was a $7 return. In my case, I earned a PhD and 25,000 students went through my classes. Education is a great investment for the country.
80
John, do you see what you did there? You effectively showed that a program designed to retrain young people who had already sacrificed something huge for their country- who had made an initial investment of time and energy to help- works quite well. My question is 'Why not ask something from these folks BEFORE we reward them with free education?" National service? Helping to resolve some of the problems of our country such as homelessness, poverty, pollution, infrastructure repair, parks improvements, access by the disabled, etc. would be a great start!
Bravo. That was so self- serving. While I applaud your success, I decry you lack of sensitivity for the rest of the world
A well intentioned but uniformed perspective on our two-year colleges. California's Campaign for College Opportunity reports that only 23% of entrants earn entry into a four-year college after SIX YEARS! http://collegecampaign.org/portfolio/november-2012-meeting-compliance-bu...
This important bell-weather metric for Community Colleges makes mockery a the system as an answer the the draconian cuts in higher ed and the concomitant increase in tuition. There is no free lunch. Either we fund education K-20, or we don't and suffer the consequences.
This important bell-weather metric for Community Colleges makes mockery a the system as an answer the the draconian cuts in higher ed and the concomitant increase in tuition. There is no free lunch. Either we fund education K-20, or we don't and suffer the consequences.
2
Since finances are the real crux of the issue, why not pay students to attend. Regard attending the classes and doing the work their job. Typically we tell
students that one three credit course represents the investment of 10 hours of work per week, so pay these students, say $10.00 an hour for those hours, with bonus pay for grades better than C+, say $12.50 an hour for a B and $15.00 for an A, with the differences paid as a bonus when each course ends. Eating and a place to live are expenses everyone incurs, these are not school expenses. The expense of school is forgoing immediate earnings and tuition and books, and this would be a way around this.
students that one three credit course represents the investment of 10 hours of work per week, so pay these students, say $10.00 an hour for those hours, with bonus pay for grades better than C+, say $12.50 an hour for a B and $15.00 for an A, with the differences paid as a bonus when each course ends. Eating and a place to live are expenses everyone incurs, these are not school expenses. The expense of school is forgoing immediate earnings and tuition and books, and this would be a way around this.
What a waste. Just revamp high school curriculum and dump all the useless garbage like foreign language classes and replace them with classes that teach skills everyone needs to function as an adult and may not be able to learn from their parents.
1
Foreign language classes should be expanded, not cut. They should begin teaching foreign languages at the primary school level.
America is one of the few, if perhaps the only, country where the vast majority of the population speaks only one language.
America is one of the few, if perhaps the only, country where the vast majority of the population speaks only one language.
4
A critical link in improving and helping to sustain community college quality is that they almost all depend on a dominantly adjunct workforce (as do 4 year institutions, increasingly). This means professors and instructors are all working as part-time employees, patching together something like a full-time living by working at three or four colleges, universities and community colleges, resulting in a much heavier workload than one would typically expect of a full-time professor, plus huge travel time. It is nearly impossible for a teacher to work at a competitive level under these circumstances. I know many adjuncts who would love to work at one institution, invest in the life of the school, guide students through their 2 or 4 year education and create the kind of learning environment we expect in K-12 and 4 year institutions. Community Colleges must be supported with many more full-time faculty lines for this national proposal to work. It is a microcosm of the larger part-time catastrophe we face as a nation.
87
Yes, you will not get rich teaching at most colleges. Talking about a living wage! Many of these institutions are way more interested in nagging their indebted alums for donations, building their foundations, beautifying their campuses, hiking tuitions, and paying astronomical salaries to the top honchos. Many college teachers have other part-time jobs, to make ends meet. It's despicable, really.
2
I concur, if this applies to the average adjunct. It is crim Al how the CCs treat them for little pay, no benefits and unreliable semester to semester schedules. From what I observe, unless advocates or helicopter parents enter the fray, students are subjected quite negatively to this messy environment.
Asking students to rate teachers AFTER a class is not the best way to determine if the school's criteria are met
Asking students to rate teachers AFTER a class is not the best way to determine if the school's criteria are met
Prog Joe: Absolutely a major issue, especially in the humanities fields. We see a push to hire more full-time faculty in the "STEM" fields because the adjunct pool is skimpy (people in those fields are highly valued and earn more in business and industry), while the adjunct pool for the humanities courses is clogged with applicants.
Using the business model, it doesn't make sense to pay a full-time salary to someone teaching English 101 when plenty of people are available to teach it at a 40% discount (not because they are happy with that rate - under the laws of supply and demand, its a buyers' market). As a result, the adjunct needs to take on a larger workload with most campuses having workload restrictions. Thus, the adjunct teaches a couple classes here and then needs to rush off to teach a few classes there, with each campus having different texts, different email systems, different policies, different differences, etc.
When adjuncts get burned out, the cry from the administration is merely "Next!" to call forward the next in line. It's Upton Sinclair's The Jungle in a different context. (Hopefully, the readers can recognize the context - it's one of those humanities things.)
Using the business model, it doesn't make sense to pay a full-time salary to someone teaching English 101 when plenty of people are available to teach it at a 40% discount (not because they are happy with that rate - under the laws of supply and demand, its a buyers' market). As a result, the adjunct needs to take on a larger workload with most campuses having workload restrictions. Thus, the adjunct teaches a couple classes here and then needs to rush off to teach a few classes there, with each campus having different texts, different email systems, different policies, different differences, etc.
When adjuncts get burned out, the cry from the administration is merely "Next!" to call forward the next in line. It's Upton Sinclair's The Jungle in a different context. (Hopefully, the readers can recognize the context - it's one of those humanities things.)
At least half the colleges in this country should be shut down; especially For-Profit colleges which should be criminally prosecuted as the despicable scams that they really are. Perhaps this is one of the worthwhile hidden objectives of this seemingly asinine proposal. How many individuals and families are in virtually insurmountable debt trying to pay for higher "education" that produced virtually no marketable skills for their students and made them no more ready for the world than they were when they left high school? Harsh, provocative but TRUE!
4
Not the federal governments affair. The states have the same access to confiscate the contents wallet that the government government has. ?They only lack the ability to run up endless deficits and steal from future generations who have no say.
I went to community college and it was a better educational value than anything that happened in the subsequent 6 years if formal education. Just because something is good doesn't make it the federal governments job to pay for it.
I went to community college and it was a better educational value than anything that happened in the subsequent 6 years if formal education. Just because something is good doesn't make it the federal governments job to pay for it.
6
There are a few problems with Obama's proposal.
1) Any time the feds get involved, they want to control it - let's took at tthe common core fiasco as an example.
2) The federal government shouldn't be involved in education, that's an issue that should be left to the individual states.
3) Like anything else, the resulting degree would be worth what an individual paid for it, i.e nothing.
1) Any time the feds get involved, they want to control it - let's took at tthe common core fiasco as an example.
2) The federal government shouldn't be involved in education, that's an issue that should be left to the individual states.
3) Like anything else, the resulting degree would be worth what an individual paid for it, i.e nothing.
4
Sorry but I can't get behind this. Having taught high school for nearly a decade, I saw so many students squander the educational opportunities there. There's no reason to believe they won't continue to do the same in community college. Paying tuition - that I do believe should be kept affordable for a low-earning high school grad - ensures they'll have some skin in the game.
66
I say if the students do not perform, do not make make the grade, then expel them. There should be a minimum GPA that must be maintained in order to receive this benefit. Also, free tuition will be limited to two years, the time expected to complete the associate's degree, after that the student will be on their own. It should not operate as a welfare program in which the student becomes a "professional" student, lingering around while the more productive, motivated students, driven by success and ambition, move on.
1
Sorry H-OB, I taught at the high school level and community college level for many years. There is a huge difference between a 16 year old high school and a 29 year old returning to school after working in a low skills position for 10 years. The 29 year old has skin in the game, not because they are paying for their education, but because they have matured and realize they don't want to continue living the life that a low wage job is providing for them. Maturity comes with age and most of us are not lucky enough to be wise at the age of 16. I know I could have made better choices while in high school.
H-OB, I too taught junior high and high school for 18 years- most of it spent in a private school setting. Here's what I would propose to put the skin in the game:
Require the student to take out a student loan. Then require them to complete all courses with a minimum B average and graduate with a certificate or degree. At that point, the loan can be paid by the assistance program. If the student doesn't come through and satisfy the guidelines, they are responsible for the loan.
If this was also done in conjunction with business partnerships that encouraged training in areas where there was demonstrated need for the skill, and a high likelihood of job placement at graduation, we just might start employing more graduates.
Require the student to take out a student loan. Then require them to complete all courses with a minimum B average and graduate with a certificate or degree. At that point, the loan can be paid by the assistance program. If the student doesn't come through and satisfy the guidelines, they are responsible for the loan.
If this was also done in conjunction with business partnerships that encouraged training in areas where there was demonstrated need for the skill, and a high likelihood of job placement at graduation, we just might start employing more graduates.
The problem of the proposal is that the community college's expense is already very affordable. The federal program will more likely than not encourage tuition increase by the community colleges.
17
FREE college will benefit all of society. This increases the expectation for kids in grade school when they know they can continue learning without incurring debt. This will open up futures that otherwise cannot exist.
Thanks OBAMA for saying what was needed even as the rich dismiss it.
Thanks OBAMA for saying what was needed even as the rich dismiss it.
22
So the colleges will not charge for their services -- that must be true if it will be free. In fact, this will become yet another "entitlement" and will drive the cost of education even higher. When one looks at what the availability of low cost loans did to the cost of 4 year schools one can see clearly that this new proposal is destined to show similar results.
2
There is no FREE college . . . unless of course your definition of free is 'someone else paying for it'.
1
Sure take it seriously, starting on how to pay for it with basically something else being eliminated and very strict criteria. It seems that many can already go this route either paying for it themselves or getting a Pell grant. Note we are proposing this in TN but we have money to pay for it and are restricting it to those who seem to be capable of success. If the president is serious he will restrict his proposal in the same ways.
5
Pell grants are puny. Helpful, but not enough to help many people pay for school. Everybody can't be at the very top of the class and earn those grants and scholarships. But, those students will still be crucial to our economy.
1
Why burden tax payers with more government expenses. Why not pay for this new government program with funds shifted from unproductive government spending instead. For example, stop state and federal subsidies for law schools (there's a huge glut of law graduates, and half the law schools are unneeded money wasters), stop funding the failed War on Drugs (we only funded the War on Alcohol - Prohibition - for 12 wasteful years). Don't always ask for more money, make better use of the money government already has. Please!
53
Yeah, I'll hold my breath until that happens.
If you want to discuss wasteful government expenses start with the subsidizing of oil companies. They don't need any of our tax dollars. If this subsidy were to be re-invested into education it would not cost you anything.
2
Why does doing the right thing always have to depend on quashing another worthy program?
1
I very much appreciate the support that people like Tom Hanks and institutions such as the Times are lending to the President's call for more support for community colleges, but they seem to be missing a critical question: Are community colleges ready for it? My recent experience in New York suggests that are not, by a long shot. On both sides of the Hudson River, I encountered disaffected, underpaid, even dangerously unqualified faculty, a term that I use loosely in this context. There were lecturers who had never encountered a syllabus. Others who didn't hold final exams. And administrators who ran departments like personal fiefdoms, more like a Japanese shogun than a proper academic. It's a good idea, but unless major reform to community colleges accompanies it, especially in the form of academic oversight, I fear it will be a wasted effort.
45
The question no one seems to be asking is: how did these "dangerously unqualified faculty" get there? Here is the answer.
Many got there with degrees from dangerously corrupt, even "elite" universities that used government money to "graduate" people to staff "lesser" colleges. I know this because I'm a former professor who has seen this up close and personal.
I actually gave examples in a previous comment on this editorial.
What we need is an overhaul of our unaccountable university system.
Many got there with degrees from dangerously corrupt, even "elite" universities that used government money to "graduate" people to staff "lesser" colleges. I know this because I'm a former professor who has seen this up close and personal.
I actually gave examples in a previous comment on this editorial.
What we need is an overhaul of our unaccountable university system.
2
Down here in Texas the exact same problems beset community colleges. Do you mean "good ole boys and girls" up in New York are doing what they are doing down here in the Lone Star State--scamming the system and living out of the deal to the lasting damages of our teachers and children.
If you survey community colleges across the country you'll find a wide range in academic quality. Probably a better measure is the success of those who go on to four-year institutions.
Unfortunately, here in California the public four-year institutions will not release this information on an individual college basis. Also, the California accrediting commission does not consider academy quality in its review of community and junior colleges.
Unfortunately, here in California the public four-year institutions will not release this information on an individual college basis. Also, the California accrediting commission does not consider academy quality in its review of community and junior colleges.
Free is a funny way to describe this. Will the teachers work for free? Will the utilities and rent be free? Of course not. This is another entitlement program paid by the shrinking base of taxpayers. The graduation rates from most community colleges is very low and many students come away with very little in the way of tangible skills. A nice idea but hardly free.
7
This is an awesome idea! I remember when I was just out of high school and didn't really know what to do, I attended a community college in Calif and it cost almost nothing ( a small tuition and books). I eventually transferred to a four year university and finished a 4 year degree The really cool thing about the community college was that adults could go at night and take academic classes towards a degree or take classes in things they just wanted to learn ... like small engine repair, painting, foreign language, scuba diving, etc. Some of these classes had extra fee's but it was not unaffordable. Now everything has to cost big money, I'd gladly pay higher taxes to go back to a community college system like we used to have.
3
It is a wonderful concept. Yes, our young people and even older adults retooling need to be encouraged to further their eduction. It's the details that are a concern. Can funds be found by taking from other government programs (less for unneeded and unwanted military planes for example) rather than increasing the federal budget? Can students be tracked to be sure they are in school? Will community colleges not increase their tuition above inflation? Will state governments participate - unlike their resistance to the ACA? Many nations offer free post-high school education. Surely, we can offer more than grants. Vision of the past needed today as well!
5
We're confusing "education for the masses" with a college education. I suppose the confusion is understandable because we have spent years convincing ourselves that college is and should be for "the masses," except that it's not, and never has been, which is why education is the next bubble.
We keep churning out lots and lots of students with debt and no tangible skills. The last thing the world needs is more creative writing students...
We keep churning out lots and lots of students with debt and no tangible skills. The last thing the world needs is more creative writing students...
13
This is a great idea - for the 1980s. At this point we are automating people out of well paying midlevel jobs. When manufacturing comes back to the US from cheap labor parts of the world, it is because companies have found ways to automate the work. Having fewer student loans is good. Having STEM educated people is good. But there are still more people than good paying jobs, and it is overall getting worse, not better. Not everyone can be a programmer; what should they do to chase the American dream?
1
"The American work force is less educated than it needs to be ..."
And we can begin by looking at the decrepit union-dominated, public K-12 system.
Fix that first before dumping money in remedial high school (aka community college).
And we can begin by looking at the decrepit union-dominated, public K-12 system.
Fix that first before dumping money in remedial high school (aka community college).
15
As a former math professor, I have seen firsthand how past attempts to expand education only expanded "degrees", while limiting education, especially in high school.
In a nutshell, here is what happened.
In the 60's and 70's, money flowed into universities to produce math and science PhD's to staff newly minted and/or expanded regional state colleges.
That money produced "professors" like the following: (all from the same university)
a math professor who explained that it took him five years to get to the point where he could always tell when the homework was wrong, but still couldn't always tell what was wrong with it;
a professor who taught statistics, yet mistook the most important theorem in that field for a similar sounding trivial fact;
...etc...
(These cases, and much more, are detailed, and documented, on my blog inside-higher-ed .)
Professors like those above (which are still being produced with money from "national need" grants - see my blog for a case) aren't equipped to teach future high school teachers the subject matter that they in turn need to teach well in high school. Thus, high school gets dumbed down.
Furthermore, this influx of money, along with almost total unaccountability, helped corrupt higher education.
We need to fix our corrupt university system - which Obama is trying to do.Then high schools will be able to give their students a high school education, not just a "degree".
In a nutshell, here is what happened.
In the 60's and 70's, money flowed into universities to produce math and science PhD's to staff newly minted and/or expanded regional state colleges.
That money produced "professors" like the following: (all from the same university)
a math professor who explained that it took him five years to get to the point where he could always tell when the homework was wrong, but still couldn't always tell what was wrong with it;
a professor who taught statistics, yet mistook the most important theorem in that field for a similar sounding trivial fact;
...etc...
(These cases, and much more, are detailed, and documented, on my blog inside-higher-ed .)
Professors like those above (which are still being produced with money from "national need" grants - see my blog for a case) aren't equipped to teach future high school teachers the subject matter that they in turn need to teach well in high school. Thus, high school gets dumbed down.
Furthermore, this influx of money, along with almost total unaccountability, helped corrupt higher education.
We need to fix our corrupt university system - which Obama is trying to do.Then high schools will be able to give their students a high school education, not just a "degree".
5
Free community college will have minimal impact on IT.......the low quality of HS graduates fed into sham courses produces soft STEM from all institutions.......get real.
As everyone over 60 knows, the city colleges in New York were "free" when we were college age. That was destroyed by "open enrollment" which meant anyone could attend regardless of their preparedness. Good progressive ideas that are not defeated can be destroyed by thoughtlessness, like the Medicare prescription drug plan that prevents bargaining for the best price for example. It was also destroyed by block grants to the states instead of targeted aid to public education.
Americans must be provided with the results of the WWII GI Bill for education, and told how much money America made for each tax dollar invested in education. Instead, underfunded schools are vilified in the press by politicians who seek to end public education by reforming it to death. Teachers and tenure are the problem we are told. Stupidly the press just reports this. Where are the stories and reports about teachers and tenure in the most successful schools in the world? Why does the media just let politicians and hacks go unchallenged when they lie about education and offer false equivalences. Why are the "reform" minded not going after the defense industry to end corruption and waste, or the oil industry?
What we need is a strong press, a revolution among educators at all levels who will refuse to be treated as serfs, dictated to instead of like doctors and lawyers who govern their own professions. The nasty secret is that in America, educators are not professionals.
Americans must be provided with the results of the WWII GI Bill for education, and told how much money America made for each tax dollar invested in education. Instead, underfunded schools are vilified in the press by politicians who seek to end public education by reforming it to death. Teachers and tenure are the problem we are told. Stupidly the press just reports this. Where are the stories and reports about teachers and tenure in the most successful schools in the world? Why does the media just let politicians and hacks go unchallenged when they lie about education and offer false equivalences. Why are the "reform" minded not going after the defense industry to end corruption and waste, or the oil industry?
What we need is a strong press, a revolution among educators at all levels who will refuse to be treated as serfs, dictated to instead of like doctors and lawyers who govern their own professions. The nasty secret is that in America, educators are not professionals.
1
I worked 18 hours a week-as a checker in a supermarket-while attending Columbia Law School. Got the best grades I ever got. PS At that time my father was doing very well indeed as a senior executive; he just thought that after undergrad you should pay part of your own way. I did not disagree. PPS As one of 8 children of a blacksmith he had worked his way through school all the way.
Addendum to submission just made: Did not stay in "dead end" part time job in supermarket while at Columbia Law. Got another part time job at a white she law firm while going to class. Also should note that I got raises while in the market and doubled my pay at the law firm.
Once again, the Times editorial board exhibits an inability to exercise intelligence and judgement. They argue that free is better than affordable and point to free public schools. However, public schools are the example of why education should not be free. The Times may be unaware that public school is actually not free. The citizens pay for it, and it is expensive. NYC public school costs over 20g per student. Yet, how many graduate? And, of those graduating, how many are college ready? less than 25 percent. So, it costs NYC taxpayers more than 1 million dollars to educate a single college ready student or 2.4 million if you factor in the time value of money. Why so expensive? Because it is "free." 25 billion a year is currently spent by NYC to payers on this free program. It sounded good initially, but then people like Obama got involved with his union buddies and trashes it by turning it into a bloated useless system to simply pay high wages to ineffective teachers to teach students who do not understand and whose parents do not understand that taxpayers are giving each child 2400 a month to attend free school. So, instead of appreciating what is being invested in them, they do not take advantage of the opportunity and focus their efforts on the things they do not get for free like iPhones and Nikes. Those sneakers and iPhones are cherishes and taken care of becUse they were paid for. Free never works. It violates human nature. The Times should know better.
Why are we blindly rewarding the lowest performing group of colleges with this? Why aren't we helping students attend the best colleges instead?
The idea of making available free community college as an extension of high school is excellent. It carries with it increasing the chances that America can become more competitive once again. I suggest two options be added to the plan: 1) Encourage gifted high school students to examine out of high school level courses so they can begin their college careers earlier and 2) Encourage high school students to use free resources such as online courses to supplement both high school and college level coursework. Both options increase the "bang for the buck." They hold great potential and are an extraordinary bargain!
2
If this program is in place and I was a stellar New Haven, CT high school student, I would take all my basic courses at New Haven community college for two years free, then bust on over to Yale for my final two years. Saving $200K and getting that precious Ivy League diploma in the process. I wonder how my not so savvy classmates would react though knowing that I scammed the system.
Not a scam; a clean honest way to do the best for yourself. But not everyone can get into Yale, wherever you start out. What should people do who struggle to complete community college, nevermind just not getting into Yale?
That's what my son did,though his community college tuition was not free,but very inexpensive. After two years he transfered to University of California,San Diego to finish off his BA degree. When he was 14,his grandmother and I had each put 10K into a Fidelity education fund for him with an aggressive investment agenda. The result paid off big,and my graduate son has no student debt.
2
The tight relationship between educational attainment and long-term income cannot be stressed enough. The statistics are there and obvious.
In fact, the US does a pretty good job of educating its people up to and into a Tertiary Education (vocational, 2-year, 4-year and beyond). That statistic is evident here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/68758107@N00/14177888730/
Note that Canada, in the lower-age group has a 10% higher number of the population to have attained a postsecondary degree than the US.
And one of the reasons is cost. See here; https://www.flickr.com/photos/68758107@N00/15444846911/ - note that the US cost at about $6300 per year is 4 times greater than the highest cost of most European countries (at a maximum of about $1500).
Consider also the footnote reagarding the horizontal access of the percent of students of who benefit from "public loans". That does not mean the loans are free, gratis and for nothing. It means simply that they are publicly available.
Which is why recently the average debt of student graduating with a postsecondary degree was around $28000. One can imagine the number of poorer-class family kids who simply cannot afford to attend tertiary-level schooling - the cost being prohibitive.
In fact, the US does a pretty good job of educating its people up to and into a Tertiary Education (vocational, 2-year, 4-year and beyond). That statistic is evident here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/68758107@N00/14177888730/
Note that Canada, in the lower-age group has a 10% higher number of the population to have attained a postsecondary degree than the US.
And one of the reasons is cost. See here; https://www.flickr.com/photos/68758107@N00/15444846911/ - note that the US cost at about $6300 per year is 4 times greater than the highest cost of most European countries (at a maximum of about $1500).
Consider also the footnote reagarding the horizontal access of the percent of students of who benefit from "public loans". That does not mean the loans are free, gratis and for nothing. It means simply that they are publicly available.
Which is why recently the average debt of student graduating with a postsecondary degree was around $28000. One can imagine the number of poorer-class family kids who simply cannot afford to attend tertiary-level schooling - the cost being prohibitive.
1
Will Congress make this program become a massive wealth transfer from the taxpayer to for-profit "education" corporations?
1
Community college is good. Having the American taxpayer foot the bill is wrong.
Let's see this for what it really is, I.e. A way for obama to frame the Republicans as cruel and cold hearted. This has nothing to do with his stated lofty goals - if it did, why did he wait until now to roll it out?
This is politics pure and simple.
Let's see this for what it really is, I.e. A way for obama to frame the Republicans as cruel and cold hearted. This has nothing to do with his stated lofty goals - if it did, why did he wait until now to roll it out?
This is politics pure and simple.
Great Idea, it is about time, but the devil is in the details. The most important detail: How to make sure school don't just give out the right grades to keep student funding flowing. This will either require standardized tests for grading or true curves [such as mandatory grade distribution curves] that require a certain % of students get below the funding cutoff.
2
You refer to states and communities "starving community colleges for decades." True enough, though states have been starving state colleges and universities as well. This is part of the big swindle that lies at the heart of the "small government" creed. By cutting taxes, small-government advocates claim to be saving money for voters. But at the back end of those "savings" are much higher charges for tuition at public colleges and universities. So in this era of small government, college graduates are faced with back-breaking debt, while shifty politicians pat themselves on the back for their tax cuts.
President Obama's free community college plan is brilliant - a step in the right direction for a nation that, since about 1980, has been moving away from its traditional support for affordable education.
President Obama's free community college plan is brilliant - a step in the right direction for a nation that, since about 1980, has been moving away from its traditional support for affordable education.
5
Please do cite a source that would support your claim that government investment in post-secondary education has been in any sense reduced over the past, say, 30 years. Yes, college education has become ridiculously expensive not because of lesser government investment but greatly because of more government involvement. Good luck with expecting anything different to happen once the federal government offers "free" college tuition to all.
I have seen the impact high quality community colleges can have. I also expect howls of protest from the Republicans who will see this as a hand out to the poor - the population that leverages the community college system way more than the wealthy. I wholeheartedly agree that of we are serious about competing on a global scale we need to improve our educational system, this is one place to tackle.
2
When he is not freeing terrorists our brave soldiers have captured, Obama flits all around the country babbling about things he wants the federal government to do. Once, just once, I'd like to see him make a speech about things the federal government should STOP doing.
As a former community college teacher I see some problems that won't yield any kind of quick fix. One of them is remediation. Some percentage of entering students can barely read or write and unfortunately, I only know what happened at my school, they're passed on and some of them even graduate with few more skills than they arrived with. The general problem here is that remediation won't work without full bore social rescue. Counseling, supported housing, social services for the family, etc. If not remediation is just a band-aid that doesn't and won't generally work. Another problem is the low graduation rate for many community colleges. We are wasting money on free education generally that doesn't cure the social ills that go much deeper than just the school environment. But we are a short-sighted Capitalist country that is not really serious about lifting all boats and wasting more money like Obama's idea is just that wasting more tax money. Of course if we stopped all these stupid wars maybe we could really help our own population instead of helping bloated countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia so we can continue wasting oil.
2
Free tuition to community colleges will degrade American higher education by driving high quality institutions away from teaching introductory courses.
Community colleges are open admission institutions. Many of the students were not prepared for college by the free high school they attended. This results in a two-thirds attrition rate at community colleges nationally. Only 15% of entrants into community colleges ultimately complete BA/BS programs. Community college excel at delivering occupational certification programs. These are not suitable for every career and unfortunately receive only about 35% of the community college budget. About 20% of the costs go to teaching remedial reading, writing and math. The largest share of the community college budget is for university transfer programs, the role the institution fills least effectively.
We shouldn't view free community college tuition negatively because it is free or because the proposal is merely a political ploy. Not because we should be focused on teaching fundamentals in K12 where they belong. Not because we don't have $60B in the penny jar or because Pell Grants already do what needs to be done. We should refuse to sink more debt into this proposal because community colleges fail to provide high quality education.
www.adjunctularnoodling.com
Community colleges are open admission institutions. Many of the students were not prepared for college by the free high school they attended. This results in a two-thirds attrition rate at community colleges nationally. Only 15% of entrants into community colleges ultimately complete BA/BS programs. Community college excel at delivering occupational certification programs. These are not suitable for every career and unfortunately receive only about 35% of the community college budget. About 20% of the costs go to teaching remedial reading, writing and math. The largest share of the community college budget is for university transfer programs, the role the institution fills least effectively.
We shouldn't view free community college tuition negatively because it is free or because the proposal is merely a political ploy. Not because we should be focused on teaching fundamentals in K12 where they belong. Not because we don't have $60B in the penny jar or because Pell Grants already do what needs to be done. We should refuse to sink more debt into this proposal because community colleges fail to provide high quality education.
www.adjunctularnoodling.com
It's a mistake to characterize this discussion as being about "community colleges." It is about access to college in general--whether two-year or four-year institutions. States used to subsidize almost all of the cost of public higher ed and now rely primarily on tuition. (I attended a flagship state university in the late seventies for $500 a yr tuition). That decline in support of public higher ed has hurt access and helped create student debt burdens. Obama's proposal is a big step in the right direction, but it would be a shame to weaken the public four-years (which graduate students more effectively) in order to support community college access. Let's focus on an affordable public higher ed alternative for all.
3
Spend, tax, borrow. Provide "free" things in exchange for votes. It's the Democrats' way.
2
This editorial fails to mention that the idea of offering free community college education originated from Tennessee, a very red conservative state. It is not an original idea from the Obama administration. I would just like to make that fact clear, since the esteemed editorial board of the New York failed to mention it, and I imagine so, deliberately. Thank you.
5
See also Mitch Daniels in Indiana.
Let's hope that Obama's proposal includes classes in basic math or finance where students learn that there is nothing 'free'.
3
Just for once I would like to meet a liberal whose solution to a problem - real or imagined - was not more government spending and higher taxes.
How is the "War of Poverty" going after 50 years and trillions spent?
How is the "War of Poverty" going after 50 years and trillions spent?
2
The war on poverty is over.Poverty won.
1
Currently, a third of students in community colleges are taking some remedial classes to try to get up to the level of high school grade. Maybe fixing the high schools would be a better use of this money. Also a push for a better trade school track would service a large number of students better than free community college.
89
Maybe it's not the high schools that need fixing: maybe it's the students and our culture here in the US.
Right on!
Already there are programming trade schools popping up, and my mom tells me that when she became an RN it was through a hospital program, not a college. We really have to separate learning a trade from going to college. Each is valuable in its own way. Of course, getting colleges and universities off the teat of career preparation is easier said than done. They want that market share to pay for the country club atmosphere and athletic accomplishments that they substitute for actual education.
Already there are programming trade schools popping up, and my mom tells me that when she became an RN it was through a hospital program, not a college. We really have to separate learning a trade from going to college. Each is valuable in its own way. Of course, getting colleges and universities off the teat of career preparation is easier said than done. They want that market share to pay for the country club atmosphere and athletic accomplishments that they substitute for actual education.
I agree about the high school issue, but want to note that many "community colleges" actually emphasize trades, some to the detriment of college prep academics. Seems to depend on the regional needs.
1
Over and over business owners say their biggest problem is finding the right people with the right skills. Growth is being held back because there are not enough people with the needed education. A powerful community college system could be the major factor in solving this problem. We should remember that the post WWII growth in this country was powered by all those college graduates who took advantage of the GI Bill.
6
Although education affects everyone throughout their lives, its lack perversely limits both individual and national aspirations and achievement. It's encouraging that President Obama is proposing the initiative, supported by Federal funding and municipal agencies and community colleges for the collective benefit of students, towns, States, and in fact our national stature for improved educational achievement for all Americans.
These past few decades have shown a national tendency away from our country, as we appear to aspire to success individually, with little or no regard for both the opportunities and responsibilities inherent in America unless the personal rewards of achievement coincide with our country's requirements. Education is the single most effective tool available to everyone in meeting personal and national goals - we should laud our President's efforts to improve availability, reduce collegiate expenses, and assure graduation and advancement in both our personal lives and national status.
These past few decades have shown a national tendency away from our country, as we appear to aspire to success individually, with little or no regard for both the opportunities and responsibilities inherent in America unless the personal rewards of achievement coincide with our country's requirements. Education is the single most effective tool available to everyone in meeting personal and national goals - we should laud our President's efforts to improve availability, reduce collegiate expenses, and assure graduation and advancement in both our personal lives and national status.
1
Years ago, in a post-grad class I had a professor who talked about college education being a "civil right" and that all Americans should be entitled to free education. Most of the students laughed at this; after all the beloved teacher was a self-avowed socialist and more likely a closet communist, if truth be told. So now we have this. The objection then -- and now -- was to the creation of a "student class" of people, chronically unemployed and living off the government's tuition and expenses. You can see this elsewhere in the world where professional students at age 30, 40, 50, and beyond live at the outskirts of life and do little but criticize the hand that feeds them. Are we really ready for this? Self-motivated people will always find a way to get educated, whether it's working a side job or just being a good student and earning a scholarship. Any government program, no matter how nice it looks at the outset, will always be whittled down to the lowest common denominator and year after year more and more benefits will be added by pols looking to garner the "intellectual" vote. A bad, very bad, idea indeed.
1
A rather narrow and minimalist view. How better to fuel the populous with thinking and problem solving skills then to allow them exposure to more ideas and skills and a bigger view thru education. Keep them down trodden and uneducated? take a look around.
1
How would two years of free community college create a class of "professional students."
3
Get real,Jack. I started my formal education at a community college back in the 60s when tuition was close to nothing,and I went on the GI Bill. So according to you,I was a "taker" on the dole. What you forget however is that like for many,many others, the opportunities offered by such governmental assistance has repayed the government and society manyfold in taxes and societal benefits. I'm a very successful attorney now who employs many others and has paid over the years 100s of times more in taxes than the government ever subsidized me to start out.
3
The party whose members deny the validity of science are not going to like this idea one bit.
41
While there is no question that free tuition at community colleges is an investment for the future in terms of education there is one other aspect of attending a community college that I would add.
That is the quantity and quality of teaching as compared with private or public universities. Many community college faculty have the same Phd's as the most sort out professors at a university. Because they may have international reputations for their independent work these professors make only rare if any appearances in a classroom.
Want to learn about music? What could be more beneficial to you than a well qualified teacher who spends all his / her time in your classroom.
That is the quantity and quality of teaching as compared with private or public universities. Many community college faculty have the same Phd's as the most sort out professors at a university. Because they may have international reputations for their independent work these professors make only rare if any appearances in a classroom.
Want to learn about music? What could be more beneficial to you than a well qualified teacher who spends all his / her time in your classroom.
4
@William Scarbrough: Indeed, the quality of teaching at a community college is higher because the teachers do not have to worry about research, publications, grants, outside teaching commitments, etc. to gain tenure. They want to spend the time teaching and often had or have direct working experience with the subject they are teaching. Many of those in private and public universities have just received their PhD's without the actually working in their field of expertise. Teaching becomes research not teaching students.
When I went back to school the first time to complete a 2 year program, it was a game changer. Everyone should have that opportunity.
19
College level work is not for everyone, most notably those who waste time and money not graduating from community college. The statistics are appalling, perhaps 12% graduate, the rest drop out or founder.
There are some for whom Community Colleges are an opportunity to advance their education after underperforming in high school, through lack of interest or adjustment problems. Others can't afford the expense of a four year public or private institution. For them, the road should be made easier. For others who are under performers because they haven't the ability, no sense in throwing good money after bad. Immersion in part time jobs doesn't explain decades of low graduation rates and poor performance; these folks shouldn't be there in
the first place.
There are some for whom Community Colleges are an opportunity to advance their education after underperforming in high school, through lack of interest or adjustment problems. Others can't afford the expense of a four year public or private institution. For them, the road should be made easier. For others who are under performers because they haven't the ability, no sense in throwing good money after bad. Immersion in part time jobs doesn't explain decades of low graduation rates and poor performance; these folks shouldn't be there in
the first place.
Peter,
How about, if you don't graduate, you have to pay?
How about, if you don't graduate, you have to pay?
Well we have a political party that doe snot believe in education, so how will we get around that?
5
Why not let everyone go to community college for free for their first two years. Then go to their junior and senior year at what used to be a four year college. It would be a way to weed out those who did not do well during the two year community college program.
That way every student could get their first two years free and then pay to go on for their final two years.
That way every student could get their first two years free and then pay to go on for their final two years.
1
Why stop there?
Why shouldn't the government give you everything you want?
Why shouldn't the government give you everything you want?
2
The President's plan was well received in Mexico. The lead story on Televisa's 10:00 P.M. national News was about free collage tuition in the U.S. and who would be elegable. One wonders why! (not!)
2
Further nanny state nonsense. I went to a Big Ten University, worked 20 hours a week, carried a full class schedule and graduated on time with a 3.2 GPA. Even made the Dean's list a few times while working 20 hours a week. I'm sure that was more work than these kids taking courses to bring them up to college standards. Perhaps you ought to fund this little charade by having non-performing high schools pay their expenses.