The working assumption underlying most reporting about this issue is that the Palestinians in fact WANT a state. Other than highfalutin declarations and sloganeering, where is the evidence that they do? Abu Mazin signed a pact with Hamas; the least he could have done was to negotiate with the Israelis unconditionally, as Netanyahu had requested, while Hamas was firing long range missiles at Israel late last year. Now that Hamas has failed to make Israel buckle, Abu Mazin is turning to the ICC. Is this the behavior of an actor who wants to improve the lot of his constituents, or the actions of a man who would rather be remembered for "standing up to the aggressors" and perpetuating the Palestinian narrative of grievance and victimization?
7
What Israel is doing to the Palestinians ressembles very much what the United States did to the native Americans when they put them in reservations, which is not surprising, considering the two countries were founded by European colonialists. The only difference is that we are today in a post-colonial era and what Israël is doing to the Palestinians is no longer tolerable. Israel has lost its communication war in a large part of the world. What the colons and the army do to the Palestinian civil populations in the occupied territories is inexcusable. There hast to be better ways for Israel to ensure its security than humiliating a whole population with continued harassment. The Palestinians are doing the right thing in seeking official recognition by joining International institutions. Claiming their civil liberties and avoiding violence and acts of terrorism are the only way. I am part Jewish and very proud of my cultural heritage but I am utterly disgusted by the politics of Israel and shall not set foot in that country until it acts very differently toward the Palestinians.
16
No Palestinian state would be viable even if one came into being without reaching an agreement with Israel (unless its sole purpose is to be a staging area for more attacks against Israel). It would still be "blockaded" by Jordan to the east and Egypt to the south, neither of which have any interest in a Palestinian state. Egypt already has shut off Gaza because of Hamas. Jordan does not want a connection between a Palestinian state and its own Palestinians. The new state wold no longer have the benefit of food and electricity that is now supplied by Israel. The rest of the Arab world? Sure, they have done so much for the Palestinians until now and lets see when the money pledged to rebuild Gaza actually shows up.
What will most likely happen is the West Bank will become another Gaza run by Hamas, and then only a matter of time before it attacks Israel with rockets, tunnels etc. Of course, this will be Israel's fault, and its haters will point out how the state is not really a state and the Palestinians have no choice but to respond to "aggression" and since the Palestinians are the weaker party, nothing they do is wrong and they cannot be morally responsible. And so there will be more war, suffering and misery, mainly for the Palestinian population.
If they want something other than this, they will need to come to terms with Israel. Or they just continue suffering in one way or another as they have been until they figure it out.
What will most likely happen is the West Bank will become another Gaza run by Hamas, and then only a matter of time before it attacks Israel with rockets, tunnels etc. Of course, this will be Israel's fault, and its haters will point out how the state is not really a state and the Palestinians have no choice but to respond to "aggression" and since the Palestinians are the weaker party, nothing they do is wrong and they cannot be morally responsible. And so there will be more war, suffering and misery, mainly for the Palestinian population.
If they want something other than this, they will need to come to terms with Israel. Or they just continue suffering in one way or another as they have been until they figure it out.
9
Robert:
Your scenario isn't implausible, but I have enough faith in humanity to believe that if the neighbors of a nascent Palestinian state tried to throttle it in the cradle, the resulting suffering would enrage the world, and the perpetrators would pay a terrible PR penalty.
Your scenario isn't implausible, but I have enough faith in humanity to believe that if the neighbors of a nascent Palestinian state tried to throttle it in the cradle, the resulting suffering would enrage the world, and the perpetrators would pay a terrible PR penalty.
4
Isn't it better for Palestinians to seek their rights in a court of law rather than by force of arms? What is the problem here? They exist. They have been a people for thousands of years and they are not going to simply disappear.
11
The U.S. opposition to the Palestinian Authorities moves towards statehood are a mistake. The current situation is not tenable for Palestinians nor ethical Israelis. The solution is either two state or one state. While the two state solution seems possible, the future of a "Jewish" state which has 1/4 non Jewish citizens is troubled. What kind of lives do the non Jewish citizens live? What kind of ethics do the Jewish citizens have?
The one state solution is anathema to the nationalists on both sides, but is the only one with a future. Unfotunately, it is not possible now.
Try to keep in mind that the state of Israel has a very highly developed security apparatus, well funded and well trained. Israel has more than 250 atomic warheads, submarine launched cruise missiles, modern nuclear capable strike aircraft etc. The state of Israel is not at risk militarily at all. The rockets launched from the Gaza Strip result in less injuries and deaths than a week of car crashes. On the other hand, Palestinians are at significant risk for death or injury from the Israeli military.
The one state solution is anathema to the nationalists on both sides, but is the only one with a future. Unfotunately, it is not possible now.
Try to keep in mind that the state of Israel has a very highly developed security apparatus, well funded and well trained. Israel has more than 250 atomic warheads, submarine launched cruise missiles, modern nuclear capable strike aircraft etc. The state of Israel is not at risk militarily at all. The rockets launched from the Gaza Strip result in less injuries and deaths than a week of car crashes. On the other hand, Palestinians are at significant risk for death or injury from the Israeli military.
12
Two little dogs are in a yard, fenced in behind a chain link fence. They see a large, powerful dog walking down the street. They launch into a round of angry barking at the big dog. Their anger escalates, until they fly into a frenzy; and then, they both turn, foaming at the mouth, and rip into each others flesh. There is a term for this; it's called misplaced aggression.
The two little dogs are Israel and the Palestinians. And the big dog? The big dog is Great Britain, the nation in control when the two little dogs found themselves fenced into a tiny yard.
Each little dog was enraged that the big dog didn't give the entire yard to them. The original big dog has long gone home, but the little dogs continue to savage each other, spurred on by the big dogs of the future: The Soviet Union - The United States - Iran. Yes, all these years later, they are still ripping into each others flesh - accusing their yard-mate of representing some big dog or another.
The truth is that they have no one to blame but themselves. It is entirely within their power to stop all of the violence - that's why it is truly sad, when people get on this forum and encourage one side or the other.
The two little dogs are Israel and the Palestinians. And the big dog? The big dog is Great Britain, the nation in control when the two little dogs found themselves fenced into a tiny yard.
Each little dog was enraged that the big dog didn't give the entire yard to them. The original big dog has long gone home, but the little dogs continue to savage each other, spurred on by the big dogs of the future: The Soviet Union - The United States - Iran. Yes, all these years later, they are still ripping into each others flesh - accusing their yard-mate of representing some big dog or another.
The truth is that they have no one to blame but themselves. It is entirely within their power to stop all of the violence - that's why it is truly sad, when people get on this forum and encourage one side or the other.
1
It is deeply, deeply troubling to read many comments which, as a solution to this conflict, call for the destruction of the state of Israel.
This is the position eliminates, and has eliminated for 66 years, any chance for peace. And it will condemn future generations to the misery of war as it has condemned past generations.
This is the position eliminates, and has eliminated for 66 years, any chance for peace. And it will condemn future generations to the misery of war as it has condemned past generations.
5
If Israel cannot accept the 1967 borders, then perhaps they should go back to the 1948 borders. Palestinian statehood has to be resolved as a viable entity.
8
Do American taxpayers understand that annually $3.1 billion of their hard-earned tax dollars goes to support a foreign state which has conducted obvious human rights abuse and possible war crimes?
24
Do they know $400 million of their hard-earned tax dollars go to support a terror group that has murdered scores of Americans, orchestrated waves of airplane hijackings and suicide bombings, indoctrinates their young from birth to hate their neighbors and dream of the day they will be annihilated, and has defied and stalled every attempt to reach a real peace deal with them? Do you?
9
Ironically this is essentially the route Israel took to create their state in 1949 - using the UN to give their aspirations credence. Why in this case should the Palestinians be denied the same?
22
The Palestinians stand to lose a lot of money by going forward in this way. Apparently they have prepared themselves for this. After getting so close to agreement: recently with Abbas, and in 2000 with Arafat, it seems unlikely that further talks will move anything soon.
This affords the Palestinians pride and respect in addition to international support. I am at the end of my wits as to how this can be resolved. What I can say for the Palestinians is at least they do not sit and take abuse from the Israelis. They do something, ineffectual as it may seem. Some of their aspirations are unrealistic: the Israelis will never grant 'right of return.' But they do deserve a bitter life, and if that has to be accomplished through Israeli cooperation, then Israel has to change.
The U.S. should be ashamed for cutting the Palestinians off over this.
This affords the Palestinians pride and respect in addition to international support. I am at the end of my wits as to how this can be resolved. What I can say for the Palestinians is at least they do not sit and take abuse from the Israelis. They do something, ineffectual as it may seem. Some of their aspirations are unrealistic: the Israelis will never grant 'right of return.' But they do deserve a bitter life, and if that has to be accomplished through Israeli cooperation, then Israel has to change.
The U.S. should be ashamed for cutting the Palestinians off over this.
11
Overlooked in this analysis is the new post-Arab-Spring reality throughout the Middle East. The region does not need another failed state on the borders of Israel, Jordan and Egypt. With the deep rift between Hamas and the PA that alternatively gets fixed and then breaks again, the terrorist new Caliphate ideology of Hamas and the deep corruption of the PA, what are the chances that a new state won't become another Syria, Iraq or Lebanon in short order? We have seen over and over again how the surface liberalism of Arab revolutions are quickly swept away leaving only fundamentalism. Hamas' mass execution of alleged Israeli "collaborators" without trial is a warning to the world of what lies beneath the surface in Palestinian society.
The Palestinians need to first clean their own house, create a unified government purged of brutal fundamentalism and of the culture of corruption started by Arafat (what ever happened to the PLO funds that were under his control?) and then enter into good faith negotiations on a two state solution. Israel already lives in a neighborhood of crazy states. It won't be a party to creating another.
The Palestinians need to first clean their own house, create a unified government purged of brutal fundamentalism and of the culture of corruption started by Arafat (what ever happened to the PLO funds that were under his control?) and then enter into good faith negotiations on a two state solution. Israel already lives in a neighborhood of crazy states. It won't be a party to creating another.
11
Dan W
Your unilateral pre-requisites for a State of Palestine existence, if applied elsewhere, would disqualify half the states on this planet, including Israel.
Your unilateral pre-requisites for a State of Palestine existence, if applied elsewhere, would disqualify half the states on this planet, including Israel.
11
Israel is a prospering democratic society. It's internal ills, shared by every advanced society, are dealt with under a system of law -- not through terror. Guess you missed that.
10
While the world is full of failed states, it seems particularly ill-advised to inject a new one into a region that is failing to cope with the existing humanitarian crises in Syria and Iraq and their spillover to Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt, particularly in light of the fact that the New Caliphate ideology of Hamas is so similar to ISIS.
5
For true justice and peace to take hold, Israeli 's and Americans must fist accept ALL of the indigenous Palestinians (young, old; man , women or child, hostile, or not, political or not, Islamic or not) as truly equal human beings with every right, including right to return, as every other human being. Unfortunately though, In Israel, religion forbids it and in America special interest politics makes it equally impossible.
20
Nobody has an inherited right of return. Even the Palestinians.
People have taken the working definition of a UN organization , UNWRA, as to who it will serve and used it as international law. Its not.
This was not UNWRA's original definition or mandate. It was expanded in 1982 to include future generations. Because without refugees there is no UNWRA and the more people included, the greater UNWRA's power and budget.
But its not all descendants. Only those through the male.
The other reason there are refugees is that children born in Arab countries descended, again only on the male side, from Palestinians, are allowed no rights as per the 1951 Casablanca Doctrine of the Arab League.
Progressives like yourselves therefore support that children born of ethnic Palestinian males, over generations, in places like Lebanon, never can own land or go to professional school or be part of the economy. Would you support that for ie children born of Somalis who were accepted as refugees in the US?
Interesting fact is that the Palestinians were not given rights because, as is very clear, the Middle East is sectarian. So these principles will apply to the millions of refugees created by the new Arab civil wars. Their children in Jordan, Lebanon etc will not be given rights.
The world's support for the Palestinian exclusion is precedent.
A recipe for disastrous instability.
People have taken the working definition of a UN organization , UNWRA, as to who it will serve and used it as international law. Its not.
This was not UNWRA's original definition or mandate. It was expanded in 1982 to include future generations. Because without refugees there is no UNWRA and the more people included, the greater UNWRA's power and budget.
But its not all descendants. Only those through the male.
The other reason there are refugees is that children born in Arab countries descended, again only on the male side, from Palestinians, are allowed no rights as per the 1951 Casablanca Doctrine of the Arab League.
Progressives like yourselves therefore support that children born of ethnic Palestinian males, over generations, in places like Lebanon, never can own land or go to professional school or be part of the economy. Would you support that for ie children born of Somalis who were accepted as refugees in the US?
Interesting fact is that the Palestinians were not given rights because, as is very clear, the Middle East is sectarian. So these principles will apply to the millions of refugees created by the new Arab civil wars. Their children in Jordan, Lebanon etc will not be given rights.
The world's support for the Palestinian exclusion is precedent.
A recipe for disastrous instability.
7
Why did Bob leave out
"Palestinians must first accept Israel's right to exist"
???
"Palestinians must first accept Israel's right to exist"
???
7
@ judith bell
"Nobody has an inherited right of return - not even the Palestinians"
But the Jews do? Have the right of "return" to Israel, a country where those allowed - make that encouraged - to move to have never lived before, but have a right to become citizens of, for the simple fact of being Jewish.
Judith, I think you destroyed your own argument with your first sentence.
"
"Nobody has an inherited right of return - not even the Palestinians"
But the Jews do? Have the right of "return" to Israel, a country where those allowed - make that encouraged - to move to have never lived before, but have a right to become citizens of, for the simple fact of being Jewish.
Judith, I think you destroyed your own argument with your first sentence.
"
6
When in 1947 the UN divided Palestine in two and recognized Israel's frontiers, it automatically recognized a Palestinian state, even without saying it. And when we think about rights and human rights, the UN under the power of the US was the first entity that has acted against the human rights of the Palestinians and still go on doing it. So, please, let us not speak about rights and wrong when people coming from Europe where they have their origins and ancestors, come and take your homes and country by force. What about the Americans and Europeans who make others pay for their crimes against the Jewish people in WWII? Are the Palestinians not human beings or there are some peoples superhumans and others subhumans?
17
Sounds like you conveniently forgot the Arabs, including the Palestinians, rejected that deal in lieu of a war of annihilation which they lost. No agreement, no deal, no contract -- as far as I know that truism applies in Miami, much less in the Middle East.
7
I am the daughter of a West Bank Palestinian and have been following this conflict closely since I was a child. The comments sections to recent articles (starting this summer) are truly giving me hope. For the first time, I can see that the vast majority of readers see through Israel's actions/inactions, the eternal claims of "antisemitism" pertaining to any criticism of Israel, the dehumanization of the Palestinians by depicting their struggle for justice and basic human rights as terrorism (not that I support violence by the Palestinians either--I deplore it both morally and strategically). I am very gratified to see how much public opinion has changed in the last decade and especially the last six months. I can only hope that our government's policies will follow.
33
Paradoxically, the US and Israel have done a great service to the Palestinians by blocking a poorly worded resolution before the UN. The resolution had no support from the various Palestinian factions because it undercut and undermined very fundamental Palestinian rights. US efforts have failed to bring about a peaceful settlement to the conflict because of its bias and assurance that ‘we will love Israel for ever’ and continue to fund its killing machine regardless of its bad behavior. Israel is rapidly losing its legimatcy and becoming a pariah state. Tragically, the US has a diminished role and perceived to be the big bully grossly misusing its veto power and arm twisting tactics to pressure other nations to conform to its wishes.
How long are we going to tolerate Israel’s bad behavior? Biting the hand that feeds them billions of dollars in military and economic aid, Jewish settlers attacked American consular officials who were investigating the destruction of Palestinian olive trees. It is outrageous that we continue to divert critical resources from the American public to support the Israeli military machine which violates every norm of human decency and paradoxically the basic principles of Judaism. Abandoned by much of the world, the Palestinians should vigorously remedy decades of injustice by taking their case to the International Court at The Hague and intensifying the BDS movement.
How long are we going to tolerate Israel’s bad behavior? Biting the hand that feeds them billions of dollars in military and economic aid, Jewish settlers attacked American consular officials who were investigating the destruction of Palestinian olive trees. It is outrageous that we continue to divert critical resources from the American public to support the Israeli military machine which violates every norm of human decency and paradoxically the basic principles of Judaism. Abandoned by much of the world, the Palestinians should vigorously remedy decades of injustice by taking their case to the International Court at The Hague and intensifying the BDS movement.
18
Freedom can't be given, it must be taken. That's not violent unless it's opposed by an oppressor, and it's the basis of what the U.S. has always stood for around the world. The Palestinians don't need anyone's permission to become a state, they just need to claim statehood. And no, that's not anti-Semitic, it's a respect for universal human rights.
Israel is a fractured society, with extremist settlers breaking the law, and internal politics making it unable to stop them. Sounds a lot like Hamas. Israel is on the wrong side of this occupation, of this violence, regardless if Hamas or anyone says they are committed to their destruction.
The U.S. is Israel’s safety net, nothing else; Israel and the world will follow the U.S. lead. Palestinian women, children, families, merchants, and the peaceful majority deserve Palestinian statehood, so recognize it, argue over borders, and have the U.S punish those that violate Israel’s' peace and safety, kind of like what's happening now. It's an imperfect solution, but such is the hatred between these religious cultures that we aren't going to be able to wait to for them to resolve it before the Palestinians are able to secure their human rights. Time to end this charade, and recognize the Palestinian’s right to freedom, to self-determination. How ironic that the sons and daughters of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln are the last obstacle to the Palestinians’ right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…
Israel is a fractured society, with extremist settlers breaking the law, and internal politics making it unable to stop them. Sounds a lot like Hamas. Israel is on the wrong side of this occupation, of this violence, regardless if Hamas or anyone says they are committed to their destruction.
The U.S. is Israel’s safety net, nothing else; Israel and the world will follow the U.S. lead. Palestinian women, children, families, merchants, and the peaceful majority deserve Palestinian statehood, so recognize it, argue over borders, and have the U.S punish those that violate Israel’s' peace and safety, kind of like what's happening now. It's an imperfect solution, but such is the hatred between these religious cultures that we aren't going to be able to wait to for them to resolve it before the Palestinians are able to secure their human rights. Time to end this charade, and recognize the Palestinian’s right to freedom, to self-determination. How ironic that the sons and daughters of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln are the last obstacle to the Palestinians’ right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…
17
If two people are not on speaking terms with each other, they cannot settle the differences between them. They can appoint legal representatives to express their wishes to each other, but, if they cannot come to any agreement after repeated negotiations, it makes no difference whether they are speaking to each other through representatives, or speaking to each other directly. At that point, nothing of substance can happen.
I don't think Israel, as represented by Prime Minister Netanyahu, cares if the entire world supports the Palestinian Authority's attempts to independently establish statehood, or not. The Jews feel as though they have been in this position before, one of scorn and isolation by the rest of the world.
And it is Israel which holds the power and the authority in that land to make a difference in the lives of the Palestinians. The Palestinians cannot do this on their own, or with the U.N. help, or with the Criminal Court's help. So, the stalemate, going on now since the birth of modern Israel in 1947, will continue on indefinitely into the future.
If two parties are not even on speaking terms, they cannot settle their differences, no matter what else happens around them.
2
Blueprint for Statehood?
But your own analysis shows that it is more likely a blueprint for the dissolution of the Palestinian Authority and chaos - in order to harm the Israelis.
So why don’t you tell it like it is? The Palestinians could have had their State at any time of their choosing over the past 66 years and still can have one, but prefer to try to eliminate Israel instead.
(Or at least offer that as an alternative narrative for balance.)
But your own analysis shows that it is more likely a blueprint for the dissolution of the Palestinian Authority and chaos - in order to harm the Israelis.
So why don’t you tell it like it is? The Palestinians could have had their State at any time of their choosing over the past 66 years and still can have one, but prefer to try to eliminate Israel instead.
(Or at least offer that as an alternative narrative for balance.)
9
Concerned citizen says; Palestinians try to eliminate Israel instead.
Who has the Army,nukes,tanks,war planes?
Do the Palestinian have any of this war machines?
So, be honest and tell me who has the conditions to eliminate who?
Who has the Army,nukes,tanks,war planes?
Do the Palestinian have any of this war machines?
So, be honest and tell me who has the conditions to eliminate who?
11
Tony - you're confusing means and desire. Hamas has the desire but not the means to annihilate the Jews and Israel. Fortunately the rockets they fire on Israel indiscriminately often miss the mark. Israel has the means but not the desire. If you doubt that, consider that since 2000, 9,000 Palestinians have died in their war with Israel, out of a population of 4.2 million.
4
And also consider that if the Hamas rockets had hit their mark and not been intercepted by Israel's Iron Dome system as Hamas certainly hoped, not to mention Abbas' Fatah movement, based on the targets they were aiming for, Israel would have suffered at least 10,000 dead and wounded, if not more. But Tony will never consider that.
4
So the thoughtful, peaceful, and legal endeavors by the Palestinians are met again with hostile opposition, including the thinly veiled threat of military reaction, by the Israeli and US governments.
Persevere, Mr. Abbas. The Jewish-European conquest of Palestine has very questionable legal basis and no moral authority whatsoever. You are right, the whole world -- of lawful and good people -- is supporting you.
Persevere, Mr. Abbas. The Jewish-European conquest of Palestine has very questionable legal basis and no moral authority whatsoever. You are right, the whole world -- of lawful and good people -- is supporting you.
17
Bibi is incensed that Abbas would take unilateral initiatives to breaking the decades-long stalemate in the Middle East. But he has only his own intransigence to blame. The pattern over Bibi's tenure has been consistent -- Anytime there has been a faint glimmer of hope, Bibi has immediately dispatched the bulldozers to make way for more Jewish settlements and/or has added more humiliating conditions on Israel's willingness to talk. Is it any surprise that the world has concluded that Israel has chosen land over peace?
15
Palestinians already have full rights. How about giving Jewish people the right to live in Arab countries? What about asking the Palestinians to recognize the state of Israel?
11
jews and Arabs were living in peace before the creation of israel,sir.
3
How many times do the Palestinians have to officially recognize the State of Israel before we see the end of such comments/propaganda as "What about asking the Palestinians to recognize the state of Israel?"
2
really? they were living in peace? have you heard of The Hebron massacre where sixty-seven Jews (including 23 college students) were murdered on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, by Arabs incited to violence by false rumors that Jews were massacring Arabs in Jerusalem and seizing control of Muslim holy places. The event also left scores seriously wounded or maimed. Jewish homes were pillaged and synagogues were ransacked. In 1930 Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam organized and established the Black Hand, an anti-Zionist and anti-British militant organization. The cells were equipped with bombs and firearms, which they used to murder Jewish settlers in the area, as well as engaging in a campaign of vandalizing trees planted by settlers and British-constructed rail lines. The Tiberias massacre took place on October 2, 1938 Tiberias was then located in the British Mandate of Palestine. After infiltrating the Jewish Kiryat Shmuel neighbourhood, Arab rioters killed 19 Jews 11 of whom were children.they set fire to Jewish homes and the local synagogue. A representative of the British mandate reported that: "It was systematically organized and savagely executed. Of the nineteen Jews killed, including women and children, all save four were stabbed to death. That night and the following day the troops engaged the raiding gangs
3
Good comment by Abbas. He understands what the situation is. Israel loves the current state of affairs and, indeed, does not want anything. Everything is just fine as it is.
It would be very repetitive to say what is obvious: Arabs have no rights to demand anything since they lost many wars and conflicts since 1948.
In 2014 there is place just for one state, the Jewish state of Israel.
It may be different in 2114.
It would be very repetitive to say what is obvious: Arabs have no rights to demand anything since they lost many wars and conflicts since 1948.
In 2014 there is place just for one state, the Jewish state of Israel.
It may be different in 2114.
5
If you want to join an international boycott to put pressure on Israel to stop occupying Palestine, go to BDS Movement.net. It seems that neither we nor the israelis nor the Palestinians can rely on our governments to be reasonable.
13
Start by throwing out your cellphone, your computer and refuse any medical treatment using various medical devices and many generic prescription drugs -- even if life-saving -- since so much of it contains hidden Israeli technology. Go ahead, LMH. Be a man. It's easy to boycott vegetables and a soda machine brand. Let's see what you're really made out of. Of course, you can substitute these Israeli contributions to mankind with ones from the Arab world such as ... uh, such as ... well, I'll think of one. Don't rush me.
5
This is no more an argument against boycotting than it would have been in the case of South Africa. It seems you don't understand what a boycott is. However, for contributions from the Arab world, you could start with algebra, the concept of zero (without which none of our technology would be possible), and mechanical clocks, for starters.
3
If the Palestinians are willing to end the conflict, they will have their own country. It is as simple as that.
6
RandyJ
You mean if the Palestinians are willing to capitulate and abandon their legal rights, they will have their own little ghettos.
You mean if the Palestinians are willing to capitulate and abandon their legal rights, they will have their own little ghettos.
12
The ultimate irony of the current claim is that it was the Arab forces who refused to accept the Armistice Green Line as a border in 1949 because they did not wish to accept any Israeli state at all. Having lost multiple wars attempting to destroy Israel, the Arabs are now using international pressure to force Israel to retroactively surrender the lands that Jordan lost in its 1967 attempt to destroy Israel. There was never a Palestinian Arab state with that border. The Arabs rejected the proffered U.N. partition plans. Jordan, which annexed the territory in 1950 (without international recognition), did not build any Palestinian Arab state. In 1964, the PLO charter denied any claim of sovereignty over the West Bank. So by what principle do they now demand that this line be their border?
This is part of a long campaign of misinformation. Calling it the 1967 lines implies that it was Israel which crossed a legally recognized border in 1967, when it was really Jordan which did so in 1949. It also implies that there was a Palestinian Arab state at that time, which there was not. While the Israeli settlements take up 1.1% of the land, Arab claims have long been that they are so large so as to prevent the creation of any Arab state at all.
This is not a blueprint for statehood, this is a plan to bypass the negotiation process, which the Arabs have never truly honored.
This is part of a long campaign of misinformation. Calling it the 1967 lines implies that it was Israel which crossed a legally recognized border in 1967, when it was really Jordan which did so in 1949. It also implies that there was a Palestinian Arab state at that time, which there was not. While the Israeli settlements take up 1.1% of the land, Arab claims have long been that they are so large so as to prevent the creation of any Arab state at all.
This is not a blueprint for statehood, this is a plan to bypass the negotiation process, which the Arabs have never truly honored.
11
Finally, the Palestinians and the rest of the world are realizing the the US-sponsored "peace process" is a fraud. It was designed to buy time for Israel to steal more land in the West Bank. Time to end that sorry charade and look to international bodies for a peaceful solution.
It's not surprising that Israel finds this move deeply upsetting. Netanyahu can handle armed resistance and even terrorism easily, but he doesn't know how to fight a peaceful, law-abiding Palestinian adversary whom most of the world supports.
It's not surprising that Israel finds this move deeply upsetting. Netanyahu can handle armed resistance and even terrorism easily, but he doesn't know how to fight a peaceful, law-abiding Palestinian adversary whom most of the world supports.
14
Sorry SP, the Palestinians have walked away from negotiations on a two-state solution numerous times, including when Arafat left Clinton high and dry at the 11th hour. It's not that Palestinians don't respect the US sponsored negotiations. It's that they don't want to negotiate. Period.
10
What every writer/commentator and every Palestinian spokesperson need to be asked before submitting an opinion in print or other media is this: Do you support Israel's right to exist? If the answer is yes, there is hope for constructive discussion including that of a two state solution. If the answer is no, the anti-Israeli sentiment, much of which approaches pure hatred of Jews, should be rejected outright. Remember that if Palestine becomes a state, it will have to behave as a state, which does not include lobbing rockets into Israel.
10
Israel has definitely the right to exist...and a viable independent state of Palestine also. Remember, they both have Semitic roots.
3
"they both have Semitic roots." So are you abandoning/negating the argument that Israelis are nothing but a bunch of eastern Europeans? Good to know. Mind if I use your comment elsewhere in this comment section?
3
There is a phony symmetry here that is disturbing, as if the Palestinians are 'one side', seeking their statehood and Israel is 'the other side' opposed to Palestinian statehood. It reminds me of calling Israel's massacre of Palestinians last year a "war".
8
No, just targeted retaliation for several thousands missiles fired across the Israeli border from Hamas, which bravely hid in and amongst civilians. Classy guys. But it worked, because apparently you're buying it.
12
The great irony here is that the International Community of the day including Joseph Stalin's Russia had plans for a two "State" solution in 1947. Unfortunately, in 1948 we saw the Arab Nations including the Palestinian Arabs attempting to drive the Jews into the sea signifying the rejection by the Arabs of any accommodation to a Jewish presence in "Arab" lands. Now the Palestinians who have been at war with Israel for all these years want the International Community to recognize them as a State without coming to a peace settlement with the State that subdued them after a legal defense of its existence.
By now, the International Community should see clearly that it cannot correct the sins of the Fathers. When Titus destroyed finally the remnants of ancient Israel the fate of the Jewish people seemed set in stone until 1948. Now, it seems that this new Israel is faced with a dilemma of similar proportions but with the difference of their deterrence capacity. I am betting on Israel as the winner here.
By now, the International Community should see clearly that it cannot correct the sins of the Fathers. When Titus destroyed finally the remnants of ancient Israel the fate of the Jewish people seemed set in stone until 1948. Now, it seems that this new Israel is faced with a dilemma of similar proportions but with the difference of their deterrence capacity. I am betting on Israel as the winner here.
10
Just as the peoples of Israel are entitled to a state, so are the Palestinians. If a country should be sympathetic to the statehood claims of Palestinians it would be Israelis --just as Israel depended on the UN and an international sense of fairness for official recognition of a homeland, so do the rights of Palestinians need to be recognized.
In addition, it makes sense for Israel to support the PA, and its statehood claims. At least the PA is willing to cooperate with Israel, and does so on the ground, in terms of security, tax collection, and administration (regardless of how well this cooperation is, this is far better than the radicals that seek conflict and war).
That Israel's politicians have weakened the PA, to prop radical Palestinians and then ride the resulting nationalist wave in Israel is a tragedy, both for Israel and the Palestinians.
In addition, it makes sense for Israel to support the PA, and its statehood claims. At least the PA is willing to cooperate with Israel, and does so on the ground, in terms of security, tax collection, and administration (regardless of how well this cooperation is, this is far better than the radicals that seek conflict and war).
That Israel's politicians have weakened the PA, to prop radical Palestinians and then ride the resulting nationalist wave in Israel is a tragedy, both for Israel and the Palestinians.
7
Most of the comments here, forget that Palestinians had many opportunities to have their own state, but they rejected them, because they did not mean the destruction of Israel. To mention some ones: 1948, Olmert and Barak
15
The two-state solution is no longer viable. A single state is inevitable.
The only question left is, How will Jewish Israelis and Palestinians get along in their single state.
As Professor John Mearsheimer of The University of Chicago explained, in 2010:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq9PsXRbAzM
Nothing in the past 4.5 years has changed the conditions that lead to Professor Mearsheimer's conclusion, and the reasoning behind his argument.
The only question left is, How will Jewish Israelis and Palestinians get along in their single state.
As Professor John Mearsheimer of The University of Chicago explained, in 2010:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq9PsXRbAzM
Nothing in the past 4.5 years has changed the conditions that lead to Professor Mearsheimer's conclusion, and the reasoning behind his argument.
4
The Us and Israel love to hold others accountable, but when it comes to them go out of their way to elude accountability.
Now, good people, look up hypocrisy in the dictionary....
10
It's not going to happen and it will still be discussed, disputed long after all of us that post here are dead.
2
Abbas has rightlfully determined that dealing with Israel and the U.S. is a dead end street. He was dying a death by a thousand cuts. The U.S. attempt at getting Israel to the table for a two state solution had run its course and failed. Now with the Republicans in charge of Congress for the next two years catering to the Israeli lobbys every demand, Abbas could see any progress was hopeless. So he will bring his case to the international court where he believes the world spotlight will shine. In the end he is hoping the Israelis will be viewed with as much worldwide disgust as aparthied South Africa.. And that the U.S. with its high moral pronouncements of freedom and democracy around the world will appear more and more hypocritical as we continue to back an ever more brutal Netanyahu.
4
" Shurat HaDin, an Israeli legal group, filed complaints with the Hague-based court on Monday against three Palestinian officials, including the prime minister and security chief, after earlier doing so against Mr. Abbas and Khaled Meshal of Hamas."
Surely, Mrs. Rudoren knows an NGO cannot "file complaints" with ICC. All they can do is send information.
"Providing information to the Court
NGOs can inform the Office of the Prosecutor about crimes committed, a specific case, the historical and political context of human rights abuses, or the capacity or will of a state to investigate or prosecute crimes. This information could help the Prosecutor decide whether or not to open an investigation."
https://www.globalpolicy.org/images/pdfs/0910icc.pdf
Surely, Mrs. Rudoren knows an NGO cannot "file complaints" with ICC. All they can do is send information.
"Providing information to the Court
NGOs can inform the Office of the Prosecutor about crimes committed, a specific case, the historical and political context of human rights abuses, or the capacity or will of a state to investigate or prosecute crimes. This information could help the Prosecutor decide whether or not to open an investigation."
https://www.globalpolicy.org/images/pdfs/0910icc.pdf
4
Oh I don't know. I'd give Shurat HaDin which is a legal firm, more credit for knowing what they can and can't do, then I'd give you. Shurat Hadin has not been tilting at windmills elsewhere. http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-best-defense-against-palestinian-lawfar...
4
Stop getting lost in the weeds on this terrible and ridiculous situation. Israel has it completely within it's power to bring this decades old abuse and suppression of Palestinians to a just conclusion. Since it's inception in 1948 and with the total and embarrassing support of it's enabler the US it has gotten EVERYTHING to build a prospering, advanced state while keeping it's foot on the neck of any move towards a Palestinian state. The facts and images on the ground have been and are are shocking proof of this. Enough of this outrage, excuse mongering, and finger-pointing Israel. The world is no longer duped and is demanding a state for the Palestinians.
5
They could have had their state years ago. Palestinians walked away from a two state negotiation many times, including at the 11th hour with Clinton when the world actually thought the situation would finally be resolved. Needless to say, Israel is tired of suicide bombers and missiles from those seeking their own state, when they've already rejected one several times. Sounds like the Palestinians are the disingenuous ones.
7
135 countries and counting are tired of Israeli's and your excuses and blaming the Palestinians. "The facts and images on the ground" of an advanced prospering Israel vs a virtual stone age, occupied and suppressed existence forced on Palestinians by Israel speak louder. You choose to live in denial - the rest of the world has had enough of it.
4
If you want to successfully negate the Israeli lobby in the United States, do an audit on how their funds are procured and the tax evasions on much of those funds. Investigate the contributors, you will find a very widely breach of the tax laws.
Believe you me, there are very serious violations and has many political consequences. Other private institutions are intimately involved.
Believe you me, there are very serious violations and has many political consequences. Other private institutions are intimately involved.
5
If you have any factual evidence that what you say is true, present it. Otherwise stop trying to smear the Israeli lobby and presenting conspiracy theories.
4
It'simportant to remember where the Palestinian Fatah leadership originated. In 1959 Fatah was created. Arafat who would later become the leader, was trained by a Nazi officer who was close to Hitler named Otto Skorzeny. Abbas was Arafat's number two at the time and surely swallowed some Nazi propaganda that would soon poison his views on the Holocaust and Jews in general.
10
"On November 29, 1947, the United Nations voted to partition the land into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Simple. The Jews said yes. The Arabs said no. But they didn’t just say no. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon launched a war of annihilation against our newborn state.
This is the historical truth that the Arabs are trying to distort. The Arabs’ historic mistake continues to be felt – in lives lost in war, lives lost to terrorism, and lives scarred by the Arab’s narrow political interests.
According to the United Nations, about 700,000 Palestinians were displaced in the war initiated by the Arabs themselves. At the same time, some 850,000 Jews were forced to flee from Arab countries.
Why is it, that 67 years later, the displacement of the Jews has been completely forgotten by this institution while the displacement of the Palestinians is the subject of an annual debate?"
Ambassador Prosor's Statement at the UNGA on the Question of Palestine
http://embassies.gov.il/un/statements/Pages/Question-of-Palestine-Debate...
This is the historical truth that the Arabs are trying to distort. The Arabs’ historic mistake continues to be felt – in lives lost in war, lives lost to terrorism, and lives scarred by the Arab’s narrow political interests.
According to the United Nations, about 700,000 Palestinians were displaced in the war initiated by the Arabs themselves. At the same time, some 850,000 Jews were forced to flee from Arab countries.
Why is it, that 67 years later, the displacement of the Jews has been completely forgotten by this institution while the displacement of the Palestinians is the subject of an annual debate?"
Ambassador Prosor's Statement at the UNGA on the Question of Palestine
http://embassies.gov.il/un/statements/Pages/Question-of-Palestine-Debate...
14
Will we see the light at the end of a long suffering tunnel for Palestine at the hands of Israel, backed by US aids and weapons? Not unless the American people wake up to the injustice and discriminatory policies of our government toward Palestine. Even if the rest of the world approves statehood for Palestine, the US, UK and a handful of her allies will never go along. It is in the interest of US and UK to keep the war machine humming by designating non-democratic nations as terrorist states.
6
Unless you missed it, the article clearly states that the US gives aid to Palestinians as well, whose leaders are well known for diverting humanitarian aid away from schools, hospitals, roads, agriculture and other necessities, funding instead the building of a complex network of tunnels through which to attack Israel and purchasing weapons. Imagine how much better off the Palestinians would be if all the money spent on the 4,000 rockets fired at Israel had been spent instead on the people.
8
Common Sense, If you believe all that, you also believe Iraq was behind the attacks on 9-11. That's no common sense, it's called brainwashing by the Congressional Corporate Military Industrial Complex.
2
@ Common Sense
Don't criticize the Palestinians for using US funds to purchase arms. Perhaps they are following Israel's example. Isn't that what Israel does with the 4 billion+ it receives from Uncle Sam each year? And that's the deal, isn't it? Prop up the American economy.
BTW, don't forget Israel gets 10 times as much as the Palestinians, so you've got to wonder how many weapons they can possibly need; unless you consider how much those weapons can fetch on the world market.
Don't criticize the Palestinians for using US funds to purchase arms. Perhaps they are following Israel's example. Isn't that what Israel does with the 4 billion+ it receives from Uncle Sam each year? And that's the deal, isn't it? Prop up the American economy.
BTW, don't forget Israel gets 10 times as much as the Palestinians, so you've got to wonder how many weapons they can possibly need; unless you consider how much those weapons can fetch on the world market.
2
My problem is that I cannot understand why we constantly talk about punishing the Palestinians by cutting off their funds; but we should also consider cutting off funding to Israel if it continues to illegally build settlements. This settlement expansion has been going on for many years but we do not seem to consider it as equivalent to the Palestinian "unilateral" activities. This seems very hypocritical and dishonest on our part.
12
All of the different nationalities across the earth will only be known for their conduct towards their own people: Women, elderly, and children.
The conduct of the Palestinian people at best could be described as deplorable.
The conduct of the Palestinian people at best could be described as deplorable.
12
If the US punishes the Palestinians by withholding $400 million if they seek legal redress by joining the International Criminal Court, the US will be destroying its own reputation as an upholder of the rule of law. Our alliances with other nations are based on our moral authority, and if we lose our moral authority we will lose our allies.
It is not the Palestinians who will be the loser from this hypocrisy. The US itself will the loser.
It is not the Palestinians who will be the loser from this hypocrisy. The US itself will the loser.
21
Moral authority of the US?
Is this a joke?
Is this a joke?
4
Absolutely correct.
It appears, however, that Israel DOES control America, particularly the
congress and the newspapers, as Netanyahu frequently asserts,
and as TZipi Livni has reiterated again recently.
Isn't this about over, given the next generation of Americans who are NOT
keen on the travesty?
It appears, however, that Israel DOES control America, particularly the
congress and the newspapers, as Netanyahu frequently asserts,
and as TZipi Livni has reiterated again recently.
Isn't this about over, given the next generation of Americans who are NOT
keen on the travesty?
3
Why not just give the Palestinians full rights as Israeli citizens? Do israel really need to be exclusively Jewish? Tha t concept is so outdated. One land, 2 peoples 2 faiths. That will be the reality if the 2 govenrments can't negotiate a just settlement and Israel continues to build on land caputired in 1967 and recognized internationally as Palestinian land. I think the US should start supporting that route and you'll see how fast each side gets to the negotiating table.
10
C Morain you are right. One State for all is the solution.
Why two tiny Micronesian states? Let it be One State with equal rights. One secular state with equal civil rights for all in Ariel, Har Homa, Nablus, Hebron, Jerusalem
Equal civil rights and responsibilities regardless of race, religion, or national origin, desegregated public schools for all, one person one vote, equal access to opportunities, equal mobility. Enough is enough!
Why two tiny Micronesian states? Let it be One State with equal rights. One secular state with equal civil rights for all in Ariel, Har Homa, Nablus, Hebron, Jerusalem
Equal civil rights and responsibilities regardless of race, religion, or national origin, desegregated public schools for all, one person one vote, equal access to opportunities, equal mobility. Enough is enough!
3
The answer is yes. (Does Israel really need to be exclusively Jewish)
They can't get alone with anyone else; have proved it obviously in their
tenure in ISrael and every other place they've been.
And the strains in France are seen as well, as in other European countries,
and we hear, but do not see, French Jews moving to Israel because
they complain of feeling uncomfortable. Who thinks things will
get better?
They can't get alone with anyone else; have proved it obviously in their
tenure in ISrael and every other place they've been.
And the strains in France are seen as well, as in other European countries,
and we hear, but do not see, French Jews moving to Israel because
they complain of feeling uncomfortable. Who thinks things will
get better?
1
Israel is not and never has been exclusively Jewish. When you start with a lie, expect that your comment will not be taken seriously.
6
We note that the recent round of hostilities in the region were solely between Israel and Gaza and that Palestinian Authority West Bank Palestinians had not been a part of it despite the fact that the underlying causes, the murder of the three Israeli kids and the responsive murder of the Palestinian boy, all took place on the West Bank and were probably perpetrated by West Bank residents.
All of which begs the question, in finally coming to a resolution of the Middle East dilemma, as a practical matter aren't we better off with a 3-State Solution, Israel, Palestine on the West Bank, and Gaza? A bifurcated, non-contiguous Palestine consisting of the West Bank and Gaza, separated by Israel is not likely to be viable. Remember when there was a bifurcated Pakistan? How did that work out?
Right now Gaza is a nothing. It's not Israel, it's not Egypt. It's Nowhere Land. Is there an analogous situation anywhere else in the world? The UN ought to confer international recognition on Gaza. It can be a state and maybe they will come to their senses and establish a worthwhile economy. Resorts, beautiful coastline, industry. It could be the Gaza Riviera. They'd build trust and sanctions would ease up, even by Israel. Just keep Iran out of it. And if their buddies in Katar, where gas is less than a buck a gallon, wants to fund it with the gas money that they steal from US, be my guest.
All of which begs the question, in finally coming to a resolution of the Middle East dilemma, as a practical matter aren't we better off with a 3-State Solution, Israel, Palestine on the West Bank, and Gaza? A bifurcated, non-contiguous Palestine consisting of the West Bank and Gaza, separated by Israel is not likely to be viable. Remember when there was a bifurcated Pakistan? How did that work out?
Right now Gaza is a nothing. It's not Israel, it's not Egypt. It's Nowhere Land. Is there an analogous situation anywhere else in the world? The UN ought to confer international recognition on Gaza. It can be a state and maybe they will come to their senses and establish a worthwhile economy. Resorts, beautiful coastline, industry. It could be the Gaza Riviera. They'd build trust and sanctions would ease up, even by Israel. Just keep Iran out of it. And if their buddies in Katar, where gas is less than a buck a gallon, wants to fund it with the gas money that they steal from US, be my guest.
1
Ms. Rudoren writes--
"Israel, which has already undertaken 13 criminal investigations of its military’s behavior during this summer’s war with Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip, could also deter the International Criminal Court by proving its own justice system deals seriously with suspected offenders."
You can't prove something which isn't true. If the Israeli justice system ever got serious about Israeli violations, it would be tantamount to an internal revolution. They can't maintain the occupation, kill civilians, and steal land and do it all legally and yet this is what Israel has been doing for decades. In fairness, the same is true of Hamas--it would be absurd to imagine Hamas investigating its own crimes, because if it did so it would become a completely different organization. Governments which practice a type of apartheid and organizations which practice terrorism are by their very nature incapable of serious investigation into their own crimes.
"Israel, which has already undertaken 13 criminal investigations of its military’s behavior during this summer’s war with Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip, could also deter the International Criminal Court by proving its own justice system deals seriously with suspected offenders."
You can't prove something which isn't true. If the Israeli justice system ever got serious about Israeli violations, it would be tantamount to an internal revolution. They can't maintain the occupation, kill civilians, and steal land and do it all legally and yet this is what Israel has been doing for decades. In fairness, the same is true of Hamas--it would be absurd to imagine Hamas investigating its own crimes, because if it did so it would become a completely different organization. Governments which practice a type of apartheid and organizations which practice terrorism are by their very nature incapable of serious investigation into their own crimes.
16
Wake us up if any Palestinian ruling clique ever prosecutes or investigates any of their own for crimes against humanity, war crimes and terror.
5
How can anyone not feel a sense of revulsion towards Netanhayu bullying and imposing collective punishment on desperate Palestinians in the West Bank.. only because they want recognition and a state of their own?
Another Netanhayu bad choice following on the pointless war/massacre he inflicted on Gaza last summer( and never paid for.)
It is not surprising that Israel is being condemned by the whole world . Equally contemptible are the successive US administrations who continue to cravenly enable this injustice because of the America/israel lobby and their big bucks and an entwined arms industry.
The Palestinians must fight back with this legal process and they will prevail.
Another Netanhayu bad choice following on the pointless war/massacre he inflicted on Gaza last summer( and never paid for.)
It is not surprising that Israel is being condemned by the whole world . Equally contemptible are the successive US administrations who continue to cravenly enable this injustice because of the America/israel lobby and their big bucks and an entwined arms industry.
The Palestinians must fight back with this legal process and they will prevail.
26
seer says;How can anyone not feel a sense of revulsion towards Netanhayu bullying and imposing collective punishment on desperate Palestinians in the West Bank..
Sir, netanyahu is the problem
Netanyahu has failed to integrate Israel in the region with the 20 Arab countries. Let us be like the nations and elect a new Prime Minister who will seek peace and pursue it until Israel can fully trade with all Arab and Muslim States. (Arab League proposal in 2002).
Sir, netanyahu is the problem
Netanyahu has failed to integrate Israel in the region with the 20 Arab countries. Let us be like the nations and elect a new Prime Minister who will seek peace and pursue it until Israel can fully trade with all Arab and Muslim States. (Arab League proposal in 2002).
4
israel is becoming disliked by much of the world for treating Palestinians like animals for 60 years--the world has lost respect for jews.
25
Is that because the world had any respect for the Jews before then? I guess you never heard of the Holocaust, Nazi Germany, and basically, the history of Europe for 1900 years before. Ignorance, prejudice, bigotry and genocide against the Jews are old stories. Each generation thinks they have a new reason for hating Jews but it really is the same old anti-semitism packaged in a new excuse.
5
Not quite yet, but the world Jewish Community should take serious note of the trend.
3
No--that's ludicrous. The most sincere and knowledgeable people dealing with this crisis that I have met are progressive Jews. Let's not conflate the actions of right-wing Israelis with all Jews.
3
I wonder whether "Palestine" would fare any better than Pakistan has - another state that defines itself by what it is not. Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza self-identify as Palestinian, but there is some uncertainty in my mind as to what that actually means independent of Israel. Does Palestine mean to replace Israel, as was the original conception of the Arabs in 1964, and Hamas' conception today? Or do they plan to go the route Fayyad tried to pioneer, offering peace in return for justice, rather than Fatah's version (justice, then peace)? The loser in a war can try to dictate terms (of war, of peace, as the Palestinians have, wrapping it up in nationalistic or religious or cultural terms) but it doesn't pass the smell test no matter how much they have suffered.
19
The loser is not trying to dictate terms of war, .....that has already been established in international law. All we are waiting for is the enforcement of that law.
2
Arabs are not against the state of israel.
They offered an excellent solution as
The Arab League proposal of 2002 is the most honest for all and will end Israel’s isolation.
"Israel needs to look hard at this initiative, which promises Israel peace with 22 Arab nations and 35 Muslim nations - a total of 57 nations that are standing and waiting for the possibility of making peace with Israel, “Kerry said.
They offered an excellent solution as
The Arab League proposal of 2002 is the most honest for all and will end Israel’s isolation.
"Israel needs to look hard at this initiative, which promises Israel peace with 22 Arab nations and 35 Muslim nations - a total of 57 nations that are standing and waiting for the possibility of making peace with Israel, “Kerry said.
2
They are entitled to statehood but first they must address the the Hamas conundrum.
4
They have made serious efforts, but whenever they get too close Netanyahu & Co. drives another wedge between Fatah and Hamas, as we saw last summer.
5
Palestinians should seek support from every country that supports its statehood. These nations need to put money where there mouths are. The question begs, why aren't these nations doing just that?
9
As long as billions of US $ flow and the UN veto card is automatically up in the air, nothing will change!
U.S. military aid to Israel exceeds $100 billion
The United States of America is Israel’s big brother and really loves us. Israel does not have and apparently will not have another friend like it. According to a recent Congress report, Israel is the country that has received more cumulative American aid than any other country since the end of World War II.
U.S. military aid to Israel exceeds $100 billion
The United States of America is Israel’s big brother and really loves us. Israel does not have and apparently will not have another friend like it. According to a recent Congress report, Israel is the country that has received more cumulative American aid than any other country since the end of World War II.
3
I am afraid, that the Palestinians don't much of a choice. Negotiations - pff, really? Today it's more than 50 years with no results. Of course if we look back into the history, we will find out that around 60 years ago one American president was the first to recognize the sovereignty of Israel in spite of the fact it was the result of colonialist occupation. Why can't it be up to another US president to recognize again the rights of an oppressed people so they would become free of their oppressors?
12
It should be noted that both President Truman and his Department of State resisted as best they could against the zionist lobby of the time.
2
This is brilliant, and it looks as if the Palestinians are finally getting it. There is pressure other than violence they can bring to bear on Israel. The world shrugs when Israel meets violence with worse violence, but when they meed civilized and legal behavior with harsh collective punishment, there's no fig leaf for them to hide behind.
21
I cannot see how the Palestinian action can be described as "confrontation.
For many years Israel has claimed, falsely, that it has had no 'partner for peace', when in fact the opposite is true, and is their own intransigence which is the main problem.
Mskkcsm also brings out the old canard that "Israel is basically fighting for it's survival". it's time we laid this nonsense to rest. Israel is secure, and would have more international sympathy for the pathetic rocket attacks on its citizens if it started to treat Palestinians as humans. I personally do not know anyone who would support those attacks, but I believe that when a people are imprisoned as they are in Gaza, and are left without hope, they will react as they have done, however irrational that is.
For many years Israel has claimed, falsely, that it has had no 'partner for peace', when in fact the opposite is true, and is their own intransigence which is the main problem.
Mskkcsm also brings out the old canard that "Israel is basically fighting for it's survival". it's time we laid this nonsense to rest. Israel is secure, and would have more international sympathy for the pathetic rocket attacks on its citizens if it started to treat Palestinians as humans. I personally do not know anyone who would support those attacks, but I believe that when a people are imprisoned as they are in Gaza, and are left without hope, they will react as they have done, however irrational that is.
28
A good example of keeping your head in the sand.
Israel has Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, Iran, Muslim Brotherhood and other friendly folks as neighbors - that is no old canard. It is the current reality. ISIS, as an example, is so dangerous that the US and UK are bombing them even though they are thousands of miles away. They are right on Israel's border.
Israel has made peace with former enemies Egypt and Jordan and given up land more than three times its current size. It has offered 97+% of the West Bank back PLUS land swaps. Where is its partner for peace?
The sooner people come to grips with reality on both sides, the sooner there will be peace.
Israel has Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, Iran, Muslim Brotherhood and other friendly folks as neighbors - that is no old canard. It is the current reality. ISIS, as an example, is so dangerous that the US and UK are bombing them even though they are thousands of miles away. They are right on Israel's border.
Israel has made peace with former enemies Egypt and Jordan and given up land more than three times its current size. It has offered 97+% of the West Bank back PLUS land swaps. Where is its partner for peace?
The sooner people come to grips with reality on both sides, the sooner there will be peace.
10
back to EZ:
The sooner the Israeli people start working on making friends the more secure Israel's future becomes.
The sooner the Israeli people start working on making friends the more secure Israel's future becomes.
3
EZ, I beg to differ:
Israel made peace with a US-corrupted Egyptian government, not the people of Egypt.
Why should anyone accept the thief giving back only part of what it illegally possesses?
Israel made peace with a US-corrupted Egyptian government, not the people of Egypt.
Why should anyone accept the thief giving back only part of what it illegally possesses?
2
The first half of this article deals with the Palestinian actions to become a state and speaks of the Palestinians not wanting to give up anything in their quest to do so. Is giving up their responsibility to allow Israel safe borders something they should get a pass on? If so, the hatred engendered in its people by their politicians is a formula for war once statehood is established.
Articles often speak of the Palestinians that fled when Israel became a state. Jews also fled Palestine out of fear when Israel became a state. Both sides have the right to grievances about lost land, yet one side that spends its energy on remorse and hatred without building better lives gets so much more sympathy. Odd.
Articles often speak of the Palestinians that fled when Israel became a state. Jews also fled Palestine out of fear when Israel became a state. Both sides have the right to grievances about lost land, yet one side that spends its energy on remorse and hatred without building better lives gets so much more sympathy. Odd.
8
"[B]uild better lives"? Ironic given Israel's blockade of building materials.
15
H
You rightly point out that there were refugees going both ways in 1948. But what's your point? Would you endorse a return to the status quo ante? Why do I think not?
The fact is that overwhelmingly it was Palestinians who lost everything as a result of that war. That may be why their plight is more newsworthy.
You rightly point out that there were refugees going both ways in 1948. But what's your point? Would you endorse a return to the status quo ante? Why do I think not?
The fact is that overwhelmingly it was Palestinians who lost everything as a result of that war. That may be why their plight is more newsworthy.
8
if Israel blockaded building materials, where did Hamas get the concrete to build the terror tunnels they were going to use to kidnap and kill Israelis this past September? The Guardian newspaper reported The mechanism for allowing the entry of materials into Gaza – including the monitoring of the distribution and use of concrete – was designed by the UN special envoy Robert Serry to satisfy Israeli government concerns that cement should not be diverted to Hamas for military purposes, including tunnel building.
But some within the UN and international aid groups had privately expressed fears that the mechanism – which involves inspection, registration and monitoring – was vulnerable to corruption.
Under the scheme householders are assessed to see if they qualify for rebuilding materials, then registered and issued with a coupon allowing them to buy a specified amount of materials from warehouses monitored by a UN-administered inspection regime.
During a recent visit to cement warehouses in Gaza, however, the Guardian [saw] cement being resold a few feet outside the warehouse doors at up to four times the cost within minutes of being handed over to householders with coupons.
Elsewhere, the Guardian heard allegations of officials taking bribes to produce coupons for more concrete than was needed by householders, so the excess could be resold on the black market, with licensed dealers either turning a blind eye to fraud or participating in it.
But some within the UN and international aid groups had privately expressed fears that the mechanism – which involves inspection, registration and monitoring – was vulnerable to corruption.
Under the scheme householders are assessed to see if they qualify for rebuilding materials, then registered and issued with a coupon allowing them to buy a specified amount of materials from warehouses monitored by a UN-administered inspection regime.
During a recent visit to cement warehouses in Gaza, however, the Guardian [saw] cement being resold a few feet outside the warehouse doors at up to four times the cost within minutes of being handed over to householders with coupons.
Elsewhere, the Guardian heard allegations of officials taking bribes to produce coupons for more concrete than was needed by householders, so the excess could be resold on the black market, with licensed dealers either turning a blind eye to fraud or participating in it.
5
Mark Ellis, director of the London-based International Bar Association, is quoted as saying, “Those states that have recognized the State of Palestine [have] added an additional complexity to this very long 66-year-old journey."
He's off by about 30 years. This is part of the area that was recognized as having "provisional" independence by the Treaty of Versailles after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, with Britain being mandated to help the local population build the political institutions needed for full independence.
We know that British (and French) policy took a different tack, but in any case it's an odd way of looking at things to suggest that the local population's journey to statehood started in 1948 or with establishment of the modern state of Israel. The detour away from independence originally had to do mainly with securing British control of the Suez Canal and India. Partitioning of Ottoman Syria in the 1920s was probably as great a blow as establishing the Israeli colony (which partition enabled).
He's off by about 30 years. This is part of the area that was recognized as having "provisional" independence by the Treaty of Versailles after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, with Britain being mandated to help the local population build the political institutions needed for full independence.
We know that British (and French) policy took a different tack, but in any case it's an odd way of looking at things to suggest that the local population's journey to statehood started in 1948 or with establishment of the modern state of Israel. The detour away from independence originally had to do mainly with securing British control of the Suez Canal and India. Partitioning of Ottoman Syria in the 1920s was probably as great a blow as establishing the Israeli colony (which partition enabled).
3
Egypt and Jordan occupied Gaza and the West Bank for almost 20 years. Yet there were no protests. There was NEVER a call for a Palestinian state. There was NEVER a mention of a "Palestinian People". That term was invented later by Arafat's gang in the late 70's.
The only sovereign states to ever exist in "Palestine" were Jewish states.
The Palestinian Arabs don’t want a secure state of Israel, current polls and the election of Hamas attest to that. No PA leader is willing to utter the phrase “two states for two peoples”. Why?
The only sovereign states to ever exist in "Palestine" were Jewish states.
The Palestinian Arabs don’t want a secure state of Israel, current polls and the election of Hamas attest to that. No PA leader is willing to utter the phrase “two states for two peoples”. Why?
15
"No PA leader is willing to utter the phrase “two states for two peoples”. Why?"
Isn't the answer obvious?
A majority of the Palestinian families in the West Bank and Gaza originally had homes, fields, mosques in what is now Israel. The victorious Israeli state in 1948 drove them from those homes.
Now you want them to formally approve the seizure of their lands and renounce their dreams of a return -- even if it is never going to happen?
Of course they can't agree to that step, even if it is only symbolic. Would you deny them their self-respect?
After all, Jews dreamed of "next year in Jerusalem" for over 2000 years. Would they have been willing to publicly and officially renounce that dream?
No, no, no. It is too much. Bibi's insistence on the Palestinians officially recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and abandoning their dream of a return to their homes is no more than a ploy to sabotage any hope of peace.
Isn't the answer obvious?
A majority of the Palestinian families in the West Bank and Gaza originally had homes, fields, mosques in what is now Israel. The victorious Israeli state in 1948 drove them from those homes.
Now you want them to formally approve the seizure of their lands and renounce their dreams of a return -- even if it is never going to happen?
Of course they can't agree to that step, even if it is only symbolic. Would you deny them their self-respect?
After all, Jews dreamed of "next year in Jerusalem" for over 2000 years. Would they have been willing to publicly and officially renounce that dream?
No, no, no. It is too much. Bibi's insistence on the Palestinians officially recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and abandoning their dream of a return to their homes is no more than a ploy to sabotage any hope of peace.
19
Why are reparations only ever for Jews?
4
spectator you said; The Palestinian Arabs don’t want a secure state of Israel,
It is israel that insists to be called jewish state as ISIS perhaps.
It is israel that insists to be called jewish state as ISIS perhaps.
What are the odds of a Palestinian state, after it is established, attacking Israel (similar to Gaza now)? My guess is 100%. Perhaps I'm wrong. But, if correct, Israel replies, as in 1967, etc, and then truly back to square one.
Negotiations will never work because the Palestinians have nothing to offer Israel. Best to have others countries such as Jordan and Egypt be part of a more general agreement, as they have proven capable of having peace with Israel, and can minimize Hamas risk. Lastly, Israel can sweeten any deal by sharing some of the off shore natural gas with Palestinians.
Negotiations will never work because the Palestinians have nothing to offer Israel. Best to have others countries such as Jordan and Egypt be part of a more general agreement, as they have proven capable of having peace with Israel, and can minimize Hamas risk. Lastly, Israel can sweeten any deal by sharing some of the off shore natural gas with Palestinians.
7
The State of Palestine has legal rights to the natural gas within the internationally recognized boundaries of Gaza's offshore waters.
14
The seemingly endless struggle that continues to plague the Mid East is that the Muslims are trapped in their own past. The Muslim Arabs always seem to look backward and avoid the realities of the modern world. Peace to the Palestinians means a back to the past mentality. All of the killing, terror tactics, fear mongering could have been avoided if their leadership would have been mature enough to accept the reality of accepting Isreal as a legitimate country and lived among the the State of Israel as full citizens. The Palestinians are their own worst enemies.
11
The no. 1 myth is the labeling of “settlements” as the primary obstacle to peace. The true barrier is the same one it has always been : the so-called “right of return” – and the Palestinian’s refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people. The Arabs waged war on Israel DECADES BEFORE there was a single “settlement”.
In 2001, Israel's the leftist government offered Arafat virtually EVERYTHING the Palestinian Authority demanded, except the demographic destruction of Israel. Arafat's response was to launch the worst wave of terrorism in Israel's history. That destroyed the left. Olmert went even further in 2008. Abbas simply walked away.
Until the "moderate" Palestinians stop glorifying "martyrs" of terror and mass murder, and stop their media, schools, and mosques from educating their people to hate, the people of Israel will continue to believe there is no true partner for peace.
The “moderate” PA does not even include the state of Israel on their maps, for heaven's sake!
In 2001, Israel's the leftist government offered Arafat virtually EVERYTHING the Palestinian Authority demanded, except the demographic destruction of Israel. Arafat's response was to launch the worst wave of terrorism in Israel's history. That destroyed the left. Olmert went even further in 2008. Abbas simply walked away.
Until the "moderate" Palestinians stop glorifying "martyrs" of terror and mass murder, and stop their media, schools, and mosques from educating their people to hate, the people of Israel will continue to believe there is no true partner for peace.
The “moderate” PA does not even include the state of Israel on their maps, for heaven's sake!
16
spectator:
You say: "The Arabs waged war on Israel DECADES BEFORE there was a single “settlement”".
In the last century, European colonists immigrated to Palestine and built settlements there with a view to creating their own state on the natives' land. Of course the natives objected to the settlements.
Today Israelis are building settlements on the small rump of land left over west of the Jordan thus sabotaging any hope for a Palestinian state there.
The settlements are not an obstacle to peace?
You say: "The Arabs waged war on Israel DECADES BEFORE there was a single “settlement”".
In the last century, European colonists immigrated to Palestine and built settlements there with a view to creating their own state on the natives' land. Of course the natives objected to the settlements.
Today Israelis are building settlements on the small rump of land left over west of the Jordan thus sabotaging any hope for a Palestinian state there.
The settlements are not an obstacle to peace?
18
It's time we recognized that treating the Palestinians as humans with rights won't hurt the Israelis. It will only prevent them from continuing to abuse the Palestinians. We need to step back and ask ourselves why the Jews don't want us to grant the Palestinians what they (the Jews) demand for themselves. They demand to be recognized as a people but see nothing wrong with refusing to recognize another group.
18
The strategy seems clear enough. Abbas is basically advocating a stance of no negotiations and is hoping, pretty crazy from my perspective, for an imposed settlement by the world. Sorry but that isn't going to happen. On the other hand, not having to make any concessions or assurances is precisely the same playbook that the PLO/PA has been playing all along.
Think about how bad the PA has to be to choose Hamas (and all the death and destruction that goes with their strategy)? It's amazing that even after all these years the PA's perception among its own people is so utterly bad.
My own feeling is that perhaps things will be better if the PA does dissolve itself. With Oslo completely gone, Israel will have no authority to transfer any tax receipts to the PA since there won't be one. If Palestine becomes a State then the legal aspects of violence and one state attacking another become effective. It's no longer a case of occupation and resistance. If I were heading up Israel I wouldn't occupy one inch of the West Bank but I would ensure the territorial sovereignty of my state and it's security.
That said, I've always believed a negotiated settlement between the parties is the best way to go. After more than 65 years it's amazing to me that this is the best strategy Palestinians could come up with.
Think about how bad the PA has to be to choose Hamas (and all the death and destruction that goes with their strategy)? It's amazing that even after all these years the PA's perception among its own people is so utterly bad.
My own feeling is that perhaps things will be better if the PA does dissolve itself. With Oslo completely gone, Israel will have no authority to transfer any tax receipts to the PA since there won't be one. If Palestine becomes a State then the legal aspects of violence and one state attacking another become effective. It's no longer a case of occupation and resistance. If I were heading up Israel I wouldn't occupy one inch of the West Bank but I would ensure the territorial sovereignty of my state and it's security.
That said, I've always believed a negotiated settlement between the parties is the best way to go. After more than 65 years it's amazing to me that this is the best strategy Palestinians could come up with.
3
It is hard to see what the real gains are from Abbas's actions. Nothing has changed or will change on the ground that will improve Palestinian Lives. There already is a defacto Palestinian State in the minds of those siding with Abbas, but that is just the point, it is a state in someone's mind not a factual defined state on the ground. Has Israel moved back behind the green line? No.
If the Palestinian Authority disbands and ceases all cooperation with Israel what have they gained? Nothing.
Will Israel suddenly allow1.5 million Palestinians, the descendents of the 300,00 refugees, to return to what they claim are their ancestral homes and the lands that were seized in 1947-48 inside Israel? No, Israel will not suddenly grant them the" right of return". What has been gained? Nothing.
Abbas, sit down opposite Netanyahu and make a real peace agreement that guarantees Israel's security then see if a peace agreement can be reached.
If the Palestinian Authority disbands and ceases all cooperation with Israel what have they gained? Nothing.
Will Israel suddenly allow1.5 million Palestinians, the descendents of the 300,00 refugees, to return to what they claim are their ancestral homes and the lands that were seized in 1947-48 inside Israel? No, Israel will not suddenly grant them the" right of return". What has been gained? Nothing.
Abbas, sit down opposite Netanyahu and make a real peace agreement that guarantees Israel's security then see if a peace agreement can be reached.
3
SBS:
I wish! But you ignore the fact that Bibi is more interested in land than peace, so insisting on negotiations just allows him to perpetuate the stalemate while he bulldozes more Palestinian homes and fields and tears up olive groves to make room for a Greater Israel.
I wish! But you ignore the fact that Bibi is more interested in land than peace, so insisting on negotiations just allows him to perpetuate the stalemate while he bulldozes more Palestinian homes and fields and tears up olive groves to make room for a Greater Israel.
15
If there is any culprit for the Palestinian sufferings, it is America. Under the last 7 Presidents, America has provided unbending military, financial, political and technical support including handing over a nuclear bomb and technology to Israel and made her more and more stubborn to make any concession to make peace and give back the occupied land and lives. The end results of this tract is very painful for Palestinians, but equally it is painful to Israelis, Jewish Image and America's reputation too.
13
The Palestinians lived on the land and in the cities and villages of Palestine long before European Jews settled there. Their villages were destroyed, their crops burned, and their families scattered to make way for the new state of Israel. And now they are to be punished for creating a workable, legal framework with which to move forward? Such punitive actions by Israel and the U.S. are not only absurd, they deserve examination by the ICC.
22
Israel's land grabbing and occupation cause war with the Palestinians. Stop these and there could be a way forward towards peace.
21
This got to be the longest wartime occupation in modern history. Most occupation led to peace settlement and redrawn of borders. The Israeli action in Palestine is continous redrawing of border and no peace settlement. Kinda similar to what President Jackson (founder of the Democratic Party) did to the Indians; Continous redrawing of border and rewriting of treaties until all Indians are in reservations and all will to fight are extinguished.
17
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. As noted for the first time in the NYT as near as I can tell, Shurat HaDin has already taken Abbas and Khaled Meshal to the ICC and will sue other palestininan individuals. Want to know why they can? Because they all hold Jordanian citizenship and Jordan is a member of the ICC. If the PA joins the ICC, Shurat HaDin will be in the position to take palestine to the ICC. Such suits have been in the works for a long, long time. The ICC has already declined to hear Turkey's suit against Israel concerning the Gaza flotilla. All of you cheering palestine on, be careful of what you wish for.
13
As long as Palestinians insist on the "right of return" for those whose parents and grandparents fled (or were expelled) in 1948 to Israel, Israelis will never cooperate with them.
It makes you wonder why of all the refugees in the world, only Palestinians have an agency (UNWRA) dedicated to serving them (instead of resettling them) and only the Palestinian hope to return to the homes they lost, is being supported by so many countries, even in the West. At the same time, hundreds of thousands of Syrians have fled (or were expelled) and are re-settled all over the world.
Why do Palestinians deserve more than the Syrians? Why is there such a double standard?
It makes you wonder why of all the refugees in the world, only Palestinians have an agency (UNWRA) dedicated to serving them (instead of resettling them) and only the Palestinian hope to return to the homes they lost, is being supported by so many countries, even in the West. At the same time, hundreds of thousands of Syrians have fled (or were expelled) and are re-settled all over the world.
Why do Palestinians deserve more than the Syrians? Why is there such a double standard?
12
ott:
I see. The Israelis get to drive Palestinians from their homes and then the rest of the world has a duty to resettle them. Wouldn't that make the rest of us accessories after the fact to Israel's original crime?
Doesn't compute to me.
I see. The Israelis get to drive Palestinians from their homes and then the rest of the world has a duty to resettle them. Wouldn't that make the rest of us accessories after the fact to Israel's original crime?
Doesn't compute to me.
11
“International recognition, by 135 countries and counting, is what Palestinians are betting could eventually force changes on the ground — without their leaders having to make the concessions or assurances they have long avoided.”
Israel has been creating “facts on the ground” for decades (the number of settlers in the West Bank has tripled since Oslo), so that settlements that once were properly condemned as illegal are now euphemistically characterized as “unhelpful.” It’s high time that the Palestinians created some “changes on the ground” of their own.
The illegality of the occupation and the settlements is undeniable: International law holds (see the Fourth Geneva Convention and the preamble to the UN Charter) that no country the right to occupy or control land acquired in war (and this applies whether or not the country is the aggressor), and UN Res. 242 and 338 require Israel to withdraw from the territories acquired during the 1967 war. These resolutions also reaffirm Israel's right to exist within the Green Line.
The Palestinians have complied, but Israel not only steadfastly refuses to relinquish control over the territories but has engaged in what amount to collective punishment against the Palestinian civilians living within them.
It is thus fair to say that while Palestinians have made the greatest concession Israel has made none. Is it any wonder that Palestinians resist making any further concessions? Is there any reason they should?
Israel has been creating “facts on the ground” for decades (the number of settlers in the West Bank has tripled since Oslo), so that settlements that once were properly condemned as illegal are now euphemistically characterized as “unhelpful.” It’s high time that the Palestinians created some “changes on the ground” of their own.
The illegality of the occupation and the settlements is undeniable: International law holds (see the Fourth Geneva Convention and the preamble to the UN Charter) that no country the right to occupy or control land acquired in war (and this applies whether or not the country is the aggressor), and UN Res. 242 and 338 require Israel to withdraw from the territories acquired during the 1967 war. These resolutions also reaffirm Israel's right to exist within the Green Line.
The Palestinians have complied, but Israel not only steadfastly refuses to relinquish control over the territories but has engaged in what amount to collective punishment against the Palestinian civilians living within them.
It is thus fair to say that while Palestinians have made the greatest concession Israel has made none. Is it any wonder that Palestinians resist making any further concessions? Is there any reason they should?
24
Give the Palestinians a state to call their own. They'll never agree to borders with Israel, that has been proven time and time again, so some foreign body will probably have to hold their hand and tell them where their borders are. Do whatever is necessary to keep the population of Israel safe, as any sovereign country has the right to do. And cut the aid that the PA gets from both the US and Israel. They'll still get plenty from Europe, but that's not our problem. Let's stop bribing them to be peaceful and see how they stand on their own two feet. The politicians might finally have to stop pocketing all the aid meant for infrastructure and finally use a portion of it on actual infrastructure.
32
Palestinians are seeking to set up an independent state based on the 1967 borders, with East Jerusalem as its capital. Some 130 countries have no problem with that, except for Israel and the US.
Israel would only let the Palestinians have their own state through direct negotiations, but on its terms, dictated by the settlers. The US says the Palestinian state could only come through a negotiated solution between Israelis and Palestinians. But the peace talks Washington has conducted in the last six decades haven't achieved much, because it sides with Israel.
Israel would only let the Palestinians have their own state through direct negotiations, but on its terms, dictated by the settlers. The US says the Palestinian state could only come through a negotiated solution between Israelis and Palestinians. But the peace talks Washington has conducted in the last six decades haven't achieved much, because it sides with Israel.
11
" But the peace talks Washington has conducted in the last six decades haven't achieved much, because it sides with Israel."
It is not the American people who support the injustice in Palestine ,it is the AIPAC-controlled Congress & WH. eg. In 2009 when Israel invaded Gaza & killed 1400 people of which 2/3 were women & children, 334 members of Congress signed a letter to Obama to "Go Easy On Israel" while the 192 members of the UN General Assembly voted twice by a margin of 93% to condemn & sanction Israel for this same atrocity.
Also it was NOT the Amer. people who voted to donate $4 billion/yr to Israel or to create a special $2 billion/yr US tax loophole for gifts to Israeli "charities" that build illegal settlements on land stolen from the indigenous people of Palestine. It is the AIPAC-controlled Congress.
The US must change its election campaign funding laws so that AIPAC can no longer game the system & control Congress against the interests of the nation. eg invading Iraq
It is not the American people who support the injustice in Palestine ,it is the AIPAC-controlled Congress & WH. eg. In 2009 when Israel invaded Gaza & killed 1400 people of which 2/3 were women & children, 334 members of Congress signed a letter to Obama to "Go Easy On Israel" while the 192 members of the UN General Assembly voted twice by a margin of 93% to condemn & sanction Israel for this same atrocity.
Also it was NOT the Amer. people who voted to donate $4 billion/yr to Israel or to create a special $2 billion/yr US tax loophole for gifts to Israeli "charities" that build illegal settlements on land stolen from the indigenous people of Palestine. It is the AIPAC-controlled Congress.
The US must change its election campaign funding laws so that AIPAC can no longer game the system & control Congress against the interests of the nation. eg invading Iraq
3
Interesting that the NYT is now running article after article saying that the Palestinians have to make "concessions." So if you are the victim of a home invasion, you should "make concessions" to the robbers? If you are being raped, you are supposed to "make concessions" to your rapist? After enough "concessions" the attacks will stop?
I don't think so. You should call the police, which is, finally, what the Palestinians are doing. Israel, enabled by the U.S., has violated international law for way too long, and now it is finally time for justice.
I don't think so. You should call the police, which is, finally, what the Palestinians are doing. Israel, enabled by the U.S., has violated international law for way too long, and now it is finally time for justice.
19
Has the Israeli public not noticed the popular anti-bullying movement in the West?
14
The PLO participating in the ICC is a good thing. For it marks a turning point in this long running dispute. Isn't it considered an improvement when the two sides go from firing missiles at each other to arguing in a courtroom? Where they are throwing words instead of fists?
11
President Eisenhower was the only American President to rein in Israel, France and England during the Suez crisis.
No other American president has had the bottle to stand up to Israel or the lobbyists which has resulted in the stats quo,
When America decides to play fair towards the Palestinians, the world view may change towards the one sided foreign policy.
No other American president has had the bottle to stand up to Israel or the lobbyists which has resulted in the stats quo,
When America decides to play fair towards the Palestinians, the world view may change towards the one sided foreign policy.
18
Yes, but some US presidents capitulated under duress:
After officially recognizing the new State of Israel President Truman later noted:
"The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders—actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats—disturbed and annoyed me."
After officially recognizing the new State of Israel President Truman later noted:
"The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders—actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats—disturbed and annoyed me."
8
What other choice do they have? To sit idly by and watch Israel pretend to want peace, all the while building in disputed territory? Listening to the empty rhetoric of U.S. diplomats? I'm not surprised. I'm only surprised as to how long it took them to take this step.
24
Nonviolent, legal resistance is the key to success as far as the Palestinians are concerned. It is a brilliant approach to co-opting the forces arrayed against them.
The thing that would guarantee the Palestinians' success is an acknowledgement of the right of the State of Israel to exist. If they could do that without demanding the 'right of return' backed by force, we could all be on the road to a much better situation.
The thing that would guarantee the Palestinians' success is an acknowledgement of the right of the State of Israel to exist. If they could do that without demanding the 'right of return' backed by force, we could all be on the road to a much better situation.
1
How does Abbas purport to represent anyone, since he was elected for a four-year term, ten years ago (!) and has called off every election since? These unilateral initiatives are nothing but a sham that is given credibility because the world does not want to face the fact that the real power in Palestinian circles is held by the terrorist organization Hamas, which has decried Abbas' unilateral attempts to create a state because it is dedicated to Israel's destruction.
46
Dan says: “.....Hamas, which has decried Abbas' unilateral attempts to create a state because it is dedicated to Israel's destruction.”
Just to combat the incessant mis-information campaign of deception:
In the spring of 2014 when Hamas officially joined the unity government, it adopted all the principles set out by the US and the Quartet for peace negotiations with the State of Israel.
Khaled Hroub, the Cambridge University scholar considered a world leading authority on Hamas, says the 1988 Hamas Charter, including this oft-quoted Israel destruction phrase, was the work of "one individual and made public without appropriate Hamas consensus.”
When Hamas won the elections in 2006 they excluded the old 1988 Charter from their political program. In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, ….”
The former head of Mossad, Ephraim Halevy, advised the Israeli government that the “Hamas leadership has undergone a change ‘right under our very noses’,.."
PS please do your part in NOPE (Neutralize Organized Propaganda Ersatz)
Just to combat the incessant mis-information campaign of deception:
In the spring of 2014 when Hamas officially joined the unity government, it adopted all the principles set out by the US and the Quartet for peace negotiations with the State of Israel.
Khaled Hroub, the Cambridge University scholar considered a world leading authority on Hamas, says the 1988 Hamas Charter, including this oft-quoted Israel destruction phrase, was the work of "one individual and made public without appropriate Hamas consensus.”
When Hamas won the elections in 2006 they excluded the old 1988 Charter from their political program. In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, ….”
The former head of Mossad, Ephraim Halevy, advised the Israeli government that the “Hamas leadership has undergone a change ‘right under our very noses’,.."
PS please do your part in NOPE (Neutralize Organized Propaganda Ersatz)
6
Right Greg. Which explains their launching thousands of missiles at Israeli civilians and being supplied by Iran, which would like to "wipe Israel off the map".
Thanks, but I'll judge Hamas by the language in their charter AND their deeds, not some obscure scholar in Europe who is a "world authority on Hamas". If anyone is a "world authority on Hamas", it's probably Israel, who had to deal with their rocket barrages and tunnels.
By the way, Greg, if Hamas "didn't really mean" what they said in their charter, don't you think they themselves should have addressed the point, and that you wouldn't need to dredge up the views of a "scholar" sitting in the UK?
Thanks, but I'll judge Hamas by the language in their charter AND their deeds, not some obscure scholar in Europe who is a "world authority on Hamas". If anyone is a "world authority on Hamas", it's probably Israel, who had to deal with their rocket barrages and tunnels.
By the way, Greg, if Hamas "didn't really mean" what they said in their charter, don't you think they themselves should have addressed the point, and that you wouldn't need to dredge up the views of a "scholar" sitting in the UK?
8
them says "Iran, which would like to "wipe Israel off the map"."
NOPE
While the Iranian leadership thinks the "zionist entity" should never have been created and therefore should not exist on the map, this does NOT translate into Iranian military threat. Iranians are smart enough to realize that any military offensive would be suicidal. In the long term the Iranians may hope that demographic change and isolation will end up wiping Israel off the map.
them says: "....if Hamas "didn't really mean" what they said in their charter, don't you think they themselves should have addressed the point,.."
NOPE
I repeat In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, ….”
This is a much greater step towards peace than the Likud party refusing to recognize the State of Palestine and actively working on it's destruction.
NOPE
While the Iranian leadership thinks the "zionist entity" should never have been created and therefore should not exist on the map, this does NOT translate into Iranian military threat. Iranians are smart enough to realize that any military offensive would be suicidal. In the long term the Iranians may hope that demographic change and isolation will end up wiping Israel off the map.
them says: "....if Hamas "didn't really mean" what they said in their charter, don't you think they themselves should have addressed the point,.."
NOPE
I repeat In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, ….”
This is a much greater step towards peace than the Likud party refusing to recognize the State of Palestine and actively working on it's destruction.
2
Netanyahu's withholding of tax and customs revenues from the Palestinian Authority is yet another violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
15
Not so. The PA owes the Israeli Electrical Authority untold millions for power that Israel generously supplies. The Israelis have a right to be paid, don't they?
6
Dan
If what you say is true, then why isn't Israel making this claim? The international courts should be able to work this out.
If what you say is true, then why isn't Israel making this claim? The international courts should be able to work this out.
2
The Palestinians' problem is not so much with Israel as it is with themselves. Abbas is so afraid that he'll be murdered by Hamas, he won't dare visit Gaza. The Palestinians need to agree to have only one government that will speak for all Palestinians before anything else. They can't make peace with Israel until they make peace with themselves.
7
When a Palestinian state is declared by the borders it claims, there will be many Jewish Israelis inside.
Do they evict them from their home by force and march them out?
Is a man born 40 years ago in Hebron a war criminal because he lives where he is born? What about his 11 year old child?
If the world supports this for Jews, as they have for Jews only as far as I know, it is a large statement.
No other group but the Palestinians have inherited rights of refugees. No other group but Jews will be settlers due to being born where an ancestor settled.
Do they evict them from their home by force and march them out?
Is a man born 40 years ago in Hebron a war criminal because he lives where he is born? What about his 11 year old child?
If the world supports this for Jews, as they have for Jews only as far as I know, it is a large statement.
No other group but the Palestinians have inherited rights of refugees. No other group but Jews will be settlers due to being born where an ancestor settled.
8
So invading ,brutally occupying & annexing someone else`s land while forcing many of them off THEIR land is ALL GOOD ?
3
So what you are saying is that you support the removal of Jews born beyond the Green Line forcibly on the basis of inherited status. And you also support inherited refugee status.
Wonderful. Will you be applying those principles to Canada?
Wonderful. Will you be applying those principles to Canada?
3
The Palestinians never needed a "state" until the more aggressive East Europeans descended upon them, claiming Palestine as 'their' state, and their exclusive homeland. Some writers support Zionism by saying the Israelis are fighting for their existence, ignoring the absolute, incontrovertible truth that the Israelis are attempting to deal the Palestinians out of existence.
The best solution I can imagine is that 21st century Palestine should be a state, with immutably liberal laws that accommodate Arabs and Jews without any religious or tribal designation. (Much fuss is made of differences, but I suspect that a decent genetic study would suggest quite another understanding!)
Meanwhile, it is very useful to observe where the real (and very secure) Jewish homeland is.
The best solution I can imagine is that 21st century Palestine should be a state, with immutably liberal laws that accommodate Arabs and Jews without any religious or tribal designation. (Much fuss is made of differences, but I suspect that a decent genetic study would suggest quite another understanding!)
Meanwhile, it is very useful to observe where the real (and very secure) Jewish homeland is.
44
More agressive East Europoeans? You mean more agressive Jews? What about the Arab (Palestinian) agressive massacre of Jews in the 1920s, long before the East Europeans descended upon them. Were the Jews the agressor then, even before the modern state of Israel was born?
4
So you think the Israelis would live nicely with the Palestinians
anywhere if asked?
That idea flies in the face of history; and repeats and repeats and repeats.
anywhere if asked?
That idea flies in the face of history; and repeats and repeats and repeats.
Looking at the surrounding Arabic states, the Arab spring outcome, the situation in Syria and Iraq, is there any possibility that Palestine can become a liberal secular state? The romance versus the reality.
8
The Palestinians need a state and the US needs to join the International Criminal Court, as Palestine has done. Why is the US reluctant to join this Court? Virtually every nation on Earth is a member.
16
Why? .... because the US is fully aware that it has committed war crimes. Much as I'd like to see Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz et al called up in front of the ICC I am not holding my breath.
12
This decision was accomplished in the 1967 War when Israel was victorius and Jordan withdrew to its present borders giving up the West Bank. Over 70 percent of the Jordanian population is Palestinian. For all practical purposes, Jordan is Palestine, especially considering the non-existence of a Palestinian State in the historical past. In my opinion, Israel is entitled to the West Bank by right of conquest and it completes an important geographic boundary. Would the USA give up the state of Utah because the Mormans wanted its own homeland? I think not.
4
Is it not notable that the Israelis threaten to take the taxes collected on the
Palestinians...and keep them? Let the Paleestinians starve? Give up
medical or child care...what?
THe ISraelis have threatened and done it so many times, the horror and
awfulness doesn't occur to them. They are uncivilized far beyond unjust.
And we support that? ANd why since we've spent so much time and effort
on a "two state solution" why not applaud it when it has a chance to come
about?
We need to ditch Israel. Not only because the rest of the world is getting
sick of it, but because we're losing our humanity and any moral stance
we might pretend.
Palestinians...and keep them? Let the Paleestinians starve? Give up
medical or child care...what?
THe ISraelis have threatened and done it so many times, the horror and
awfulness doesn't occur to them. They are uncivilized far beyond unjust.
And we support that? ANd why since we've spent so much time and effort
on a "two state solution" why not applaud it when it has a chance to come
about?
We need to ditch Israel. Not only because the rest of the world is getting
sick of it, but because we're losing our humanity and any moral stance
we might pretend.
15
Most commenters here know little about the real history of the conflict, and instead hurl upon their keyboards one-sided (hard left, pro-Arab, anti-Israel) ideological polemics. Israel did not then and does not now engage in "colonialist occupation" as one commenter put it: The Jews of Israel were forced to fight a war for survival in 1948 against Arabs and Palestinians who would not live and let live, cooperate, or agree to partition. The nation of Israel was attacked from all of the disputed territories occupied by Palestinians in 1967. Israel won, occupied those territories as all victors do, the original "state owners" (Egypt, Jordan) abdicated, and hence Israel was left with land adjacent to it occupied by Palestinians who will not agree to peace in exchange for land and statehood. No, Israel has not been perfect, nor should it be expected to have been. But the leftist labels are outright, palpable, defamatory lies against the Jewish state. Palestinians as a whole, tragically, are not intersted in statehood that includes peace with their neighbor, as anyone with half of a half of a brain and a smidgeon of intellectual honesty well knows. Under current Palestinian rule, even with vast sums of foreign aid from the EU and US, such a state will be a failed state, a stillborn from the get-go, if you will, since all Palestinians assets and resources under current leadership are poured into, variously, "lawfare" with Israel as a war tactic and outright terrorist warfare.
12
Israel keeps taking over territories with illegal settlements, why shouldn't the Palestinians have a state with clear boundaries?
The truth is that Israel is not guided by principles of statehood, they are guided by religious manifest destiny. The conservatives believe God has given them land to dominate.
The truth is that Israel is not guided by principles of statehood, they are guided by religious manifest destiny. The conservatives believe God has given them land to dominate.
15
If Palestinians can get over 100 countries to recognize them as sovereign nation-state, then the USA and Israel will be on the wrong side of history, and the inevitable will happen.
Already, many scholars are shunning Israel and boycotting it.
The USA did not achieve its statehood through negotiations with the Brits. Sometimes, negotiations with the party that does not want to negotiate in good faith are stalling mechanisms, not means to get to the goal.
Already, many scholars are shunning Israel and boycotting it.
The USA did not achieve its statehood through negotiations with the Brits. Sometimes, negotiations with the party that does not want to negotiate in good faith are stalling mechanisms, not means to get to the goal.
19
I'm really glad to see the Palestinians' efforts paying off. Official statehood and membership in the ICC are giving them legitimacy in a way that years of negotiations and warfare have not. The reaction of Israel, the United States and this newspaper's editorial board is nothing short of shameful. They offer a lot of rhetoric to adherence to international norms, but when people actually try to follow up on that, they condemn them and threaten them with sanctions. Why there is such a fear of the International Court in Israel. Could it also be a fear of having your crimes exposed? Please don't answer that the whole world is against you.
I hope the tide is turning for the Palestinians, because world opinion has certainly been with them for many years.
I hope the tide is turning for the Palestinians, because world opinion has certainly been with them for many years.
17
The Suez canal is what is being fought over (plus oil).
Trade routes are the basis of the equation.
Yes, the Palestinians have a point. New Yorkers imagine the people of Sierra de Leon said we pretty much burned our own country, we want to set up a sixth district.
How would that go over five villages?
Trade routes are the basis of the equation.
Yes, the Palestinians have a point. New Yorkers imagine the people of Sierra de Leon said we pretty much burned our own country, we want to set up a sixth district.
How would that go over five villages?
The reality is that this is a very smart policy on the part of the Palestinians. The Israelis have totally misplayed their hand and their notion about the legitimacy of these moves is folly. What counts in the end is not who or what is right but the court of public opinion and in the eyes of many the Palestinians are the victims and the Jews are the bullies. Israel has done absolutely nothing to counter Palestinian propaganda.
It does set up a situation where a Palestinian state with absolutely no obligations to exist side-by-side with Israel as a neighbor this will elevate Gaza to the West Bank. This approach will create a Palestinian state but the price will be an increase in the level of the carnage. There is after all no reason to believe that once this state is created that the rocketry from Gaza will not be moved to the new state. Which will lead to a reoccupation of the West Bank by Israel.
The only real solution is a direct face-to-face negotiations with your enemy.
It does set up a situation where a Palestinian state with absolutely no obligations to exist side-by-side with Israel as a neighbor this will elevate Gaza to the West Bank. This approach will create a Palestinian state but the price will be an increase in the level of the carnage. There is after all no reason to believe that once this state is created that the rocketry from Gaza will not be moved to the new state. Which will lead to a reoccupation of the West Bank by Israel.
The only real solution is a direct face-to-face negotiations with your enemy.
21
Ran:
I agree. Let the State of Palestine engage in face-to-face negotiations with the State of Israel.
I agree. Let the State of Palestine engage in face-to-face negotiations with the State of Israel.
There are no reason the Palestinian have to give up their arms to have a state. All states should have some ability to defend itself even against overwhelming forces. Within the past five years, Israel have taken military action in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Gaza, West Bank and covert operation in Iran and UAE. The Palestinian have to be mad not to have some arms for self defense.
5
Ran Kohn says;
The only real solution is a direct face-to-face negotiations with your enemy.
Ran Kohn says;he only real solution is a direct face-to-face negotiations with your enemy.
Peace is in the hands of Israel. It's important for Israel, which holds almost all the cards in this situation, to find a way to deal with the Palestinians and to make peace with them.
Israel was not created for a displaced people so they could displace the indigenous population of the area just because they want to impose their religious beliefs on another people
The only real solution is a direct face-to-face negotiations with your enemy.
Ran Kohn says;he only real solution is a direct face-to-face negotiations with your enemy.
Peace is in the hands of Israel. It's important for Israel, which holds almost all the cards in this situation, to find a way to deal with the Palestinians and to make peace with them.
Israel was not created for a displaced people so they could displace the indigenous population of the area just because they want to impose their religious beliefs on another people
If the PA collapses, and I assume Israel will restore the taxes it collects on behalf of them, it can backfire. Without security cooperation, Palestinian jobs in Israel will greatly decline, and more Palestinian families will be bereft of any income. This could lead to a large exodus, and don't expect Israel to plead with them to stay. Without the PA, who will then claim "responsibility" for Gaza? Obviously, Hamas does already, tacitly. At least this pretend scenario of a "unity" government and Abbas "governing" Gaza will fizzle.
As to the alleged international law expert, is he joking? Since when does Palestine have defined borders, let alone an elected, unified government?
As to the alleged international law expert, is he joking? Since when does Palestine have defined borders, let alone an elected, unified government?
3
Rosalie,
Israel's coffers will not be able to cope with the full costs of occupying the West Bank and Gaza. If the US provides financial aid, then the occupiers will no longer be known as Israel, but known as USrael.
Israel's coffers will not be able to cope with the full costs of occupying the West Bank and Gaza. If the US provides financial aid, then the occupiers will no longer be known as Israel, but known as USrael.
3
Nobody but the UN will take any responsibility for Gaza. Israel left it in 2006 and isn't going back any time soon, other than what it would take to restore some order on the border.
3
Rosalie, nobody is falling for Israel's claim that it left Gaza. It vacated the land, but still is considered the occupier because of it's total control of the borders, imports/exports, the airspace, and the territorial waters of Gaza.
2
It's now considered a credible argument for the Palestinians to be "non-confrontational", i.e. sit back, relax and watch the settlers take more and more land, because supposedly to ask for UN membership etc. will help the Likud in the forthcoming elections. What happens if the Likud wins anyway? Are all the people making this argument going to tearfully proclaim "gosh darn it, we only meant the best for the Palestinians, but our argument is still valid for whenever the elections after the upcoming ones take place, and if still not valid then, there's always the one after that etc. Of course it would be a crying shame if 5 elections hence, just when the Likud is on the ropes, the settlers had taken all the land. Well, that's irony for you."
6
What is so painfully apparent is the mutual intractability at the heart of the Palestinian Israeli conflict.
Add to this the proven failure of American agency as a force for a viable two state solution. The last notable success based in American intermediation was the Camp David Accords in 1973 and thence the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty of 1979.
The 1968 demarkation between Israel proper and the West Bank is today profoundly transformed, land extensively restructured by the incessant imposition of Jewish settlements throughout the entirety of what would ostensibly be the bulk of a Palestinian state. This is and has been the most profound road block to credible movement towards resolution. Many other deeply contentious issue underpin the endemic impasse.
A different framework (not Oslo) and different intermediation is imperative.
Add to this the proven failure of American agency as a force for a viable two state solution. The last notable success based in American intermediation was the Camp David Accords in 1973 and thence the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty of 1979.
The 1968 demarkation between Israel proper and the West Bank is today profoundly transformed, land extensively restructured by the incessant imposition of Jewish settlements throughout the entirety of what would ostensibly be the bulk of a Palestinian state. This is and has been the most profound road block to credible movement towards resolution. Many other deeply contentious issue underpin the endemic impasse.
A different framework (not Oslo) and different intermediation is imperative.
4
Hey, all you bleeding-heart liberals who are sympathetic with the Palestinians. Why not open your arms and invite them to settle in your neighborhoods in the good old USA? Better yet, give them that $400 Million in aid, contingent as a subsidy to emigrate here.
As it is written on the Statue of Liberty, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
As it is written on the Statue of Liberty, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
5
Stop and Think:
Funny. Last time I looked it was the Israelis that had settled in Palestinian neighborhoods. Now the Palestinians should emigrate?
Funny. Last time I looked it was the Israelis that had settled in Palestinian neighborhoods. Now the Palestinians should emigrate?
4
If only the Zionist leaders think the same way as you. Israeli could have all settled in the US but no, they want a country in a hotly contested region.
4
Negotiating with a theocracy is an exercise in futility. When two theocracies face off genocide will be the ultimate result with one side victorious and the other wiped out and erased from history. All we, as Americans, can do is cut off themoney to both Israel and the Palestinians.
2
Why not give the Utah and be done with it?
2
They aren't very good neighbors. I don't think the citizens of Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, Idaho, Wyoming and New Mexico are really looking forward to having rockets rain down on them.
5
Maybe our own US Department of State will read the writing on the wall.
The game is up. Our morally bankrupt policy of using the "peace process" to render the Palestinians helpless while Bibi and his predecessors helped themselves to their land is now politically bankrupt as well.
The game is up. Our morally bankrupt policy of using the "peace process" to render the Palestinians helpless while Bibi and his predecessors helped themselves to their land is now politically bankrupt as well.
10
"President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority after a speech Sunday. “The whole world is supporting us,” he has said."
Mr Abbas is wrong. According to US presidents and mainstream media usage, the "world" usually means just the US and sometime US & NATO allies. Since Washington is against the Palestinians, the world is in fact against the Palestinians regardless what the other 190 countries think.
Mr Abbas is wrong. According to US presidents and mainstream media usage, the "world" usually means just the US and sometime US & NATO allies. Since Washington is against the Palestinians, the world is in fact against the Palestinians regardless what the other 190 countries think.
1
It is ironic that Prime Minister Netanyahu helps usher in a Palestinian State. He seems to be one of the least imaginative prime minister in Israeli history. Given the fights he has had with one American President after another he makes it a lot easier for the anti-Semites who would hate Israel regardless to side with the Palestinians.
The Palestinians could have had their own state prior to 1967 if they had accepted the U.N. Mandate but the Arab nations intervened. More recently the Palestinians could have had their own state but making the necessary concessions to Israel would have proven fatal to the Palestinian leader who made them.
The Palestinians could have had their own state prior to 1967 if they had accepted the U.N. Mandate but the Arab nations intervened. More recently the Palestinians could have had their own state but making the necessary concessions to Israel would have proven fatal to the Palestinian leader who made them.
24
Daniel A. Greenbum Sir. It is always easy to blame the weak. Why did not israel simply accept the Arab League Initiatives offered in 2002?
The Arab League proposal of 2002 is the most honest for all and will end Israel’s isolation.
"Israel needs to look hard at this initiative, which promises Israel peace with 22 Arab nations and 35 Muslim nations - a total of 57 nations that are standing and waiting for the possibility of making peace with Israel, “Kerry said.
The Arab League proposal of 2002 is the most honest for all and will end Israel’s isolation.
"Israel needs to look hard at this initiative, which promises Israel peace with 22 Arab nations and 35 Muslim nations - a total of 57 nations that are standing and waiting for the possibility of making peace with Israel, “Kerry said.
1
There is no reason to concede their legal rights.
2
IN the name of God, how much phony Israeli history do
we have to read in every post about things Israeli?
No on believe is,, the only question is whether it was fed daily to the
Israelis and they do, or whether we're considered that stupid.
we have to read in every post about things Israeli?
No on believe is,, the only question is whether it was fed daily to the
Israelis and they do, or whether we're considered that stupid.
2
if Palestinians are so peaceful and want peace, why has Libya banned Palestinians from entering their country to prevent entry of terrorists? Citing an intelligence report claiming that radicalized nationals from those countries were determined to infiltrate Libya, Interior Minister Omar Al-Sinki added that the ban is meant to thwart those who would "commit terrorist acts against the army and police in Benghazi and towns in western Libya," The Libya Herald reported.
6
"When the Palestinians sought statehood at the United Nations in 2011, it was *widely* dismissed as a symbolic gambit to skirt negotiations with Israel and Washington’s influence over the long-running conflict."
Journalists from Israel's lone ally should refrain from using the word "widely". The overwhelming majority of the world understands that it is "Washington’s influence over the long-running conflict" that has made a resolution of the conflict impossible.
Journalists from Israel's lone ally should refrain from using the word "widely". The overwhelming majority of the world understands that it is "Washington’s influence over the long-running conflict" that has made a resolution of the conflict impossible.
11
This will not result in a Palestinian state. That is not what Abbas wants.
If the Palestinian leadership truly wanted a state, they would have one by now. They were offered a state multiple times in good faith, with terms that were pretty non-controversial and reasonable (over 90% of the land requested, security for Israel).
But they rejected those offers. Without making a counterproposal. And then resumed hostilities towards Israel.
Any objective observer can see that if a party rejects a proposal outright without making a counterproposal, they aren't interested in a deal. Not to mention Abbas' own view that reaching a deal with Israel would get him assassinated.
This is a desperate power play for Abbas. In the meantime, the Israel-haters among these commenters will hate, and they will continue to be blind to the strategies of the Palestinian leadership.
If the Palestinian leadership truly wanted a state, they would have one by now. They were offered a state multiple times in good faith, with terms that were pretty non-controversial and reasonable (over 90% of the land requested, security for Israel).
But they rejected those offers. Without making a counterproposal. And then resumed hostilities towards Israel.
Any objective observer can see that if a party rejects a proposal outright without making a counterproposal, they aren't interested in a deal. Not to mention Abbas' own view that reaching a deal with Israel would get him assassinated.
This is a desperate power play for Abbas. In the meantime, the Israel-haters among these commenters will hate, and they will continue to be blind to the strategies of the Palestinian leadership.
12
them says: The Palestinians were offered a state "with terms that were pretty non-controversial."
Non-controversial my eye!
The UN made them the "generous" offer that they could keep half their land for a state of their own if they agreed to give up the other half of their land to colonists from Europe.
No self-respecting person would be interested in that deal.
Non-controversial my eye!
The UN made them the "generous" offer that they could keep half their land for a state of their own if they agreed to give up the other half of their land to colonists from Europe.
No self-respecting person would be interested in that deal.
4
Maybe the day will come when you understand that what you call "Israel-haters" are actually Israel supporters. What they hate is the current extremist and criminal government of Israel, for fear that it is leading Israel to self-destruction.
2
Yes, Greg, I am sure today's "Israel-haters" will look forward to attending the groundbreaking for the Israel-Holocaust Memorial after Israel's destruction. Too many people already prefer dead Jews to ones who can defend themselves. I guess you and your cohorts will have a long wait.
2
In 1979 during my first visit to the West Bank I was given a silver necklace by my Palestinian friends that said فلسطين , which is Palestine in Arabic. I staunchly wore it to Ben-Gurion airport, where I was strip-searched and queried about my West Bank visit, which came to nothing.
At that time my friends and their families, all Orthodox Christians, were merely hoping/expecting Israel to revert to pre-1967 borders and to respect United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, which called for an end to Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank -- neither of which seemed inconceivable back then.
I never dreamed that the necklace, now tarnishing somewhere in my jewelry box, would represent a further 36 YEARS in which the diplomatic world would fail to establish lasting peace by holding Israel to account for its relentless and illegal building of 'facts on the ground,' while almost two generations of Palestinians have grown up knowing nothing but struggle and conflict in the land where they too have lived for almost 2,000 years.
At that time my friends and their families, all Orthodox Christians, were merely hoping/expecting Israel to revert to pre-1967 borders and to respect United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, which called for an end to Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank -- neither of which seemed inconceivable back then.
I never dreamed that the necklace, now tarnishing somewhere in my jewelry box, would represent a further 36 YEARS in which the diplomatic world would fail to establish lasting peace by holding Israel to account for its relentless and illegal building of 'facts on the ground,' while almost two generations of Palestinians have grown up knowing nothing but struggle and conflict in the land where they too have lived for almost 2,000 years.
117
I had my Bar Mitzvah in 1975; at that time my religious teacher who had fought in the 1967 war and lost a brother in the Yom Kippur War of 1973 hoped that there would be peace, but restated what Abba Eban said after the Geneva Peace Conference in 1973 that the Palestinians "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." I've toured Sinai, both when it was controlled by Egypt and also by Israel , and later returned. I've been to the Rafah crossing in Gaza. I've seen the refugee camps. But what will it take for the Palestinians to ACCEPT ISRAEL's right to exist? When will the Palestinian's stop educating their young to hate Jews? The Israelis want peace, but need a partner who they can trust. Clearly returning Gaza did nothing for them.
7
I recently read a story about a family in Gaza who has had their home destroyed not once but twice by Israeli forces - the father lost his business as well. It took years to build the second home which was destroyed in a matter of minutes by Israeli bombs. The 8 year old son was also shot dead by Israeli troops as he lay in the rubble. As the article pointed out, there is no need to teach hatred to Palestinian children - they learn it merely by being alive.
2
1. The Palestinians certainly deserve self-determination. Anyone would agree with that.
2. The Palestinians, even with peace will not leave Israel alone. They have proven that time and again.
3. The Arab community will always fight. I mean ISIS kills its own people, Arab Countries kill their own and discriminate.
4. Therefore, in conclusion, whether Israel agrees to self determination or not, they are on the losing end of the stick, so if I were them, I too would be belligerent and not give in. Its a normal persons thinking process.
2. The Palestinians, even with peace will not leave Israel alone. They have proven that time and again.
3. The Arab community will always fight. I mean ISIS kills its own people, Arab Countries kill their own and discriminate.
4. Therefore, in conclusion, whether Israel agrees to self determination or not, they are on the losing end of the stick, so if I were them, I too would be belligerent and not give in. Its a normal persons thinking process.
9
A Palestinian state would acquire all the rights and responsibilities of statehood. For example, if a nation state launches rockets against another nation state a declaration of war is in order. Non state terrorists have a distinct advantage in these situations.
5
The large majority of Comments regarding Israeli-Palestinian relations reference Israel and its leadership. Rarely are Palestinian politics mentioned, let alone analyzed.
It seems to be assumed that if Israel somehow acceded to the visions of the Commentors, all would be well with the Palestinians and between Palestine and Israel. Essentially that is a very patronizing attitude toward the Palestinians, acting as if they were children. Treating them as equals means acknowledging that they are collectively like other people -- including the Israelis -- with their own share of corrupt officials, ideological extremists, incompetents, religious fanatics, short-sighted jerks, and collective idiocies.
As long as we romanticize or ignore internal Palestinian realities, we will not have a real-world basis on which to produce and advocate steps toward solutions. We will continue to be limited to righteous and self-righteous moralizing that is no more likely to accomplish anything in the future than it has up to now.
We should all ask ourselves when commenting: which is more important to us, being "right" or trying to advocate steps that will better the lives of real people in a world that exists as it is, not in a fantasy world which we wish did exist.
It seems to be assumed that if Israel somehow acceded to the visions of the Commentors, all would be well with the Palestinians and between Palestine and Israel. Essentially that is a very patronizing attitude toward the Palestinians, acting as if they were children. Treating them as equals means acknowledging that they are collectively like other people -- including the Israelis -- with their own share of corrupt officials, ideological extremists, incompetents, religious fanatics, short-sighted jerks, and collective idiocies.
As long as we romanticize or ignore internal Palestinian realities, we will not have a real-world basis on which to produce and advocate steps toward solutions. We will continue to be limited to righteous and self-righteous moralizing that is no more likely to accomplish anything in the future than it has up to now.
We should all ask ourselves when commenting: which is more important to us, being "right" or trying to advocate steps that will better the lives of real people in a world that exists as it is, not in a fantasy world which we wish did exist.
54
Steve:
None of this has got anything to do with the Palestinian people's fundamental right to have a state of their own -- even if they mess up.
None of this has got anything to do with the Palestinian people's fundamental right to have a state of their own -- even if they mess up.
3
Well state. The romance and the reality of situations are very different.
2
Let me try to answer your question: We should try to do what is right till there is equivalence established between both sides, ie, even Palestinians have a viable state and a just solution to the refugee crisis. Then we can strive to treat both equally.
1
Good. The Palestinians are doing what every other people have done to secure independence including Israel and the US. The sooner everyone especially Israel becomes the Palestinians best neighbors, the better off we will all be. By the way a group of West Bank settlers attacked a US delegation there a few days ago. This seems not to have been covered in the NYT or Washington Post but was covered by Fox and foreign outlets.
13
Taking punitive measures against the Palestinians makes no sense to me. When I read of olive trees uprooted by Israelis on Palestinian land in The Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/02/israeli-settlers-stone-two-...
and I read again of the US expecting to cut aid to the Palestinian Authority, the Israeli freezing the transfer of Palestinian tax revenue, I wonder why?
For a fuller understanding of many of the issues involved here see:
http://original.antiwar.com/alison-weir/2011/10/10/the-real-story-of-how...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/02/israeli-settlers-stone-two-...
and I read again of the US expecting to cut aid to the Palestinian Authority, the Israeli freezing the transfer of Palestinian tax revenue, I wonder why?
For a fuller understanding of many of the issues involved here see:
http://original.antiwar.com/alison-weir/2011/10/10/the-real-story-of-how...
8
Somehow I must question the provenance of Mr Ellis, your correspondent's
main contributor to this article. Sounds more like Guardian and BBC
anti Israel Newspeak. Perhaps not, but I take Dennis Ross's comments
in yesterday's NYT far more seriously, as well as his accurate account of
how through continuing rejection of reasonable Israeli offers from Clinton
through Olmert the two sides have reached the present impasse.
main contributor to this article. Sounds more like Guardian and BBC
anti Israel Newspeak. Perhaps not, but I take Dennis Ross's comments
in yesterday's NYT far more seriously, as well as his accurate account of
how through continuing rejection of reasonable Israeli offers from Clinton
through Olmert the two sides have reached the present impasse.
6
Dennis Ross' opinion was soundly rejected by the readers yesterday. He was exposed as an Israeli sleeper agent coming out of the closet.
3
If you think that Dennis Ross, who's been advocating a just
and fair settlement all these many long years is an "Israeli
sleeper agent," all I can reply is that someone's still asleep...
and fair settlement all these many long years is an "Israeli
sleeper agent," all I can reply is that someone's still asleep...
2
Greg: While it's true there was a furious response by some commentators to Ross' piece, like you they all failed to address the merits of his case and the facts under,ting it. I guess it's the written equivalent of trying to shout someone done when you disagree with what he says but are wrong on the facts.
2
The late Mr. Yitzhaq Rabin, Israel's former Prime Minister, presented his vision of peace in his last speech at the Knesset, 5 Oct. 1995.
Mr. Rabin, dubbed by many around the world, including the present day head of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, as the "prince of peace".
Rabin's vision of peace was fully based not only on the pragmatic eagerness to achieve an accommodation of peaceful coexistence between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab world, local and regional alike, but also based on the fundamental elements of international law related to the Arab Israeli conflict; on the bilateral and multilateral signed agreements between the PLO and Israel; and on UN Security Council Resolution, 242, 1967.
Yet, his vision, probably the most realistic one to date, has been rejected by the Arabs. They have not even had the courtesy to respond to it. One wonders, therefore: have the Arabs been interested in peace....??
Most of us, Jews, in and out of Israel, have reached our conclusion long ago: They don't!
P.S. Some would say: But Rabin was murdered. Indeed, he was, by a murderer who is serving life in prison at the moment. But his vision was not killed. His vision is very alive and kicking. Rabin in this sense was like the late Mr. Abraham Lincoln whose vision of society without slaves was not killed upon his death.
Mr. Rabin, dubbed by many around the world, including the present day head of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, as the "prince of peace".
Rabin's vision of peace was fully based not only on the pragmatic eagerness to achieve an accommodation of peaceful coexistence between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab world, local and regional alike, but also based on the fundamental elements of international law related to the Arab Israeli conflict; on the bilateral and multilateral signed agreements between the PLO and Israel; and on UN Security Council Resolution, 242, 1967.
Yet, his vision, probably the most realistic one to date, has been rejected by the Arabs. They have not even had the courtesy to respond to it. One wonders, therefore: have the Arabs been interested in peace....??
Most of us, Jews, in and out of Israel, have reached our conclusion long ago: They don't!
P.S. Some would say: But Rabin was murdered. Indeed, he was, by a murderer who is serving life in prison at the moment. But his vision was not killed. His vision is very alive and kicking. Rabin in this sense was like the late Mr. Abraham Lincoln whose vision of society without slaves was not killed upon his death.
8
What will Palestinians have if statehood is achieved right now? In my opinion, a cold war with Israel.
These two people groups have very different religious ideologies. At best, being neighbors is walking on eggshells. But when communication doesn't exist, the notion of co-existing is impossible.
If the Palestinians achieved statehood, some very strict international laws would have to be set in place, and both sides would have to agree to them. For instance, taking up arms against each other would be forbidden. Tunnels would be forbidden. Hate speech against each other would be forbidden.
Could they do it, after thousands of years of proving their inability to do it? That is anybody's guess. I don't think either side has proven they are ready to do it yet.
These two people groups have very different religious ideologies. At best, being neighbors is walking on eggshells. But when communication doesn't exist, the notion of co-existing is impossible.
If the Palestinians achieved statehood, some very strict international laws would have to be set in place, and both sides would have to agree to them. For instance, taking up arms against each other would be forbidden. Tunnels would be forbidden. Hate speech against each other would be forbidden.
Could they do it, after thousands of years of proving their inability to do it? That is anybody's guess. I don't think either side has proven they are ready to do it yet.
3
The so-called negotiations have been a farce. Israel lost my support after the way they bombed Gaza. I'm glad to see the Palestinians taking a dignified route to statehood.
17
I'm still waiting to hear from the Palestinian government official, intellectual, or other leader that insists that Israel has the right to exist.
7
I propose a deal.
The Palestinians get a state of their own and refuse to recognize Israel.
And the Israelis get to keep their state and refuse to recognize Palestine.
Fair's fair.
The Palestinians get a state of their own and refuse to recognize Israel.
And the Israelis get to keep their state and refuse to recognize Palestine.
Fair's fair.
2
If so, they will probably be his last words.
"Im still waiting to hear.......leader that insists that Israel has the right to exist."
Just to combat the incessant mis-information campaign of deception:
The Palestinians have several times officially recognized Israel’s right to exist.
The entire Arab League proposed recognition of the State of Israel (1967 version) and normalization of relations.
NOPE (Neutralize Organized Propaganda Ersatz)
Just to combat the incessant mis-information campaign of deception:
The Palestinians have several times officially recognized Israel’s right to exist.
The entire Arab League proposed recognition of the State of Israel (1967 version) and normalization of relations.
NOPE (Neutralize Organized Propaganda Ersatz)
3
Abbas may not be able to join the ICC because Palestine is not a state and he will probably face war crimes charges as the PA is part of a government with Hamas that fires rockets from civilian areas and targets Israeli civilans. The Palestinians have never offered an evenly remotely viable peace plan in contrast to the several generous ones offered by the uS and Israel. The PA is in violation of the Oslo accords by inciting violence and not stopping the terrorits.
6
In case you missed it:
The State of Palestine was officially recognized many months ago by an overwhelming vote at the UN.
The State of Palestine was officially recognized many months ago by an overwhelming vote at the UN.
5
Greg
Actually, Greg is the one who is "missing it." The resolution to which Greg refers was rejected by the UN Security Council, and thus of no force or effect. Meaningless, like Greg's post.
Actually, Greg is the one who is "missing it." The resolution to which Greg refers was rejected by the UN Security Council, and thus of no force or effect. Meaningless, like Greg's post.
3
GMooG
The resolution was overwhelmingly approved by the UN General Assembly. It has the "force" and "effect" of enabling the Palestinians to seek legal recourse in the UN's ICJ and ICC.
The resolution was overwhelmingly approved by the UN General Assembly. It has the "force" and "effect" of enabling the Palestinians to seek legal recourse in the UN's ICJ and ICC.
1
Dissolve the PA and demand your right to vote. You win.
4
Palestinians have nothing to lose anymore:
“I hear it from my father for the first time: Even if we will not get our salaries and the economic situation will be worse, at least we can say we will get our rights,” Rula Salameh said of her father, who is 70 and relies on a Palestinian Authority pension.
“I hear it from my father for the first time: Even if we will not get our salaries and the economic situation will be worse, at least we can say we will get our rights,” Rula Salameh said of her father, who is 70 and relies on a Palestinian Authority pension.
9
A Palestinian State is the ONLY just solution and outcome. Those who support it are interested in justice for a long-persecuted people. Those opposed value justice and equality far less. It's a shame that words like "courage" and "bravery" are used in the political realm when considering this, when it's clearly the right and just thing to do.
15
Notwithstanding the international aloofness and conspiracy by some nations if,the Palestinians remain united to attain their long cherished goal of statehood no power on earth could deprive them of their due, irrespective of how the UN views the matter.
6
I'd like to reply individually to everyone saying Israel is seeking to protect its right to exist, defending innocent civilians, etc., but the fact is there are just too many of you to do so - so here it is.
Historically, does an imperial invader have a right to exist? No.
Historically, has any imperial invader been able to justify itself, long-term, on a global scale? No.
Historically, have govts. had to answer for war crimes committed against minorities? Yes.
Historically, since the creation of the UN, have unprovoked land-grabs been justified on the international stage? No.
Historically, are citizens ever wholly ignorant of the war crimes their govt. commit? No. - Well, only if that ignorance is willful.
Historically, are citizens ever innocent of the crimes their govt. commit? No.
And so, I ask, does such a nation actually have a right to exist? Are the citizens really as innocent as you claim?
Historically, does an imperial invader have a right to exist? No.
Historically, has any imperial invader been able to justify itself, long-term, on a global scale? No.
Historically, have govts. had to answer for war crimes committed against minorities? Yes.
Historically, since the creation of the UN, have unprovoked land-grabs been justified on the international stage? No.
Historically, are citizens ever wholly ignorant of the war crimes their govt. commit? No. - Well, only if that ignorance is willful.
Historically, are citizens ever innocent of the crimes their govt. commit? No.
And so, I ask, does such a nation actually have a right to exist? Are the citizens really as innocent as you claim?
13
You are speaking about the United States, Italy, England, France, Germany and Russia here, right?
2
Enough is enough! This conflict started before i was born, and still goes on, and on. We should put the leaders of Israel and Palestine in a room with two chairs, one table, papers and pens. No food, no water. The two leaders will not be able to leave the room, until they reach a final agreement.
And as soon as they leave the room they will be killed by their own people, so we start your plan all over again until they are all gone?
Do you have a better plan?
Why didn't the Palestinians turn to legal channels in 1948? Instead they threw a 67-year tantrum hating the Jews and acted outside of what the UN was trying to do, create a new world order. Will they now renounce the destruction of Israel since, all of a sudden, they are turning to legal channels? Why now are they finally joining the civilized world (such as it is)? Are they finally tired of wallowing in their own dirty bathwater of martyrdom? Are they finally willing to confront their crimes before the International Court? Just wondering. This is an interesting time we live in.
11
Eddie says: ...."they threw a 67-year tantrum hating the Jews and acted outside of what the UN was trying to do, create a new world order. Will they now renounce the destruction of Israel"
Anyone with any sense of honour would "throw a tantrum" if foreigners invaded and occupied the land his/her ancestors have lived on for centuries.
The Palestinians have, may times over, recognized the State of Israel. Even Hamas, as part of the Palestinian unity government, is prepared to recognize the State of Israel (1967 version).
Anyone with any sense of honour would "throw a tantrum" if foreigners invaded and occupied the land his/her ancestors have lived on for centuries.
The Palestinians have, may times over, recognized the State of Israel. Even Hamas, as part of the Palestinian unity government, is prepared to recognize the State of Israel (1967 version).
3
Hamas has never recognized Israel's right to exist. Neither as part of the Palestinian's unity government (which is basically a myth) or otherwise.
3
Sorry folks for the repetition but the deception cannot stand.
In the spring of 2014 when Hamas officially joined the unity government with Fatah, it accepted all previous agreements (which recognized Israel) and adopted all the principles set out by the US and the Quartet for peace negotiations with, you guessed it, "the State of Israel".
In the spring of 2014 when Hamas officially joined the unity government with Fatah, it accepted all previous agreements (which recognized Israel) and adopted all the principles set out by the US and the Quartet for peace negotiations with, you guessed it, "the State of Israel".
1
There will be no peace as long as the USA continues to support Israel both militarily and economically. This support is blind and through fear of retaliation by AIPAC if the politicians do not tow the Israeli line. Never in the world has there been a powerful country rendered so impotent by a smaller country. Instead of Israel being the 51st state of the USA, it is the USA which is a province of Israel.
18
I seem to recall a small band of upstarts who independently declared themselves a free state after many unresolved grievances. They were not perfect and commited many violations against humanity, but they went against the most powerful military on earth and allied themselves with an historic enemy of their declared enemy. Many folks counciled against their declaration, branded them terrorists and warned about the violent retaliation the declaration would bring.
People do get tired of being told to wait patiently for their freedom that will surely come after they have been sufficiently defanged, deloused, and disarmed. They are told to sit quietly, refrain from saying bad things about their oppressors, clean themselves up, disarm and control their radical elements and they will be sufficiently rewarded with someone else's idea of "sufficient" freedom.
We call our band of upstarts the founding fathers of the United States. History will tell, how this current situation unfolds, but you can only ask folks to wait for change for so long, before they take matters into their own hands. Maybe the US has been pushed to the sideline because of it's inability to sufficiently influence the allied state of Israel in these matters. The US is no longer considered an honest broker in this matter, and another hard line "stick" from the US and Israel, with no immediate "carrot", will likely speed up international recognition of a unilaterally declared Palestinian state.
People do get tired of being told to wait patiently for their freedom that will surely come after they have been sufficiently defanged, deloused, and disarmed. They are told to sit quietly, refrain from saying bad things about their oppressors, clean themselves up, disarm and control their radical elements and they will be sufficiently rewarded with someone else's idea of "sufficient" freedom.
We call our band of upstarts the founding fathers of the United States. History will tell, how this current situation unfolds, but you can only ask folks to wait for change for so long, before they take matters into their own hands. Maybe the US has been pushed to the sideline because of it's inability to sufficiently influence the allied state of Israel in these matters. The US is no longer considered an honest broker in this matter, and another hard line "stick" from the US and Israel, with no immediate "carrot", will likely speed up international recognition of a unilaterally declared Palestinian state.
18
"Netanyahu will 'not sit idly by' in the face of what he called Palestinian 'confrontation'."
So when Palestinians resort to violence, they are condemned.
When they resort to legal means and appeal to internationally recognized institutions, they are also condemned.
Maybe they should just disappear from the face of the earth...
So when Palestinians resort to violence, they are condemned.
When they resort to legal means and appeal to internationally recognized institutions, they are also condemned.
Maybe they should just disappear from the face of the earth...
17
Not a bad idea, but the other Arab countries already tried it and when it did not work, then dumped them on Israel's doorstep.
2
General Assembly resolutions usually require a simple majority (50 percent of all votes plus one) to pass. However, if the General Assembly determines that the issue is an "important question" by a simple majority vote, then a two-thirds majority is required; "important questions" are those that deal significantly with maintenance of international peace and security, admission of new members to the United Nations, suspension of the rights and privileges of membership, expulsion of members, operation of the trusteeship system, or budgetary questions. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_resolution
135 nations support the recognition of a Palestinian State. 192 nations are members of The United Nations. 135/192=0.703125. 0.703125 is greater than 70.3%. 2/3=0.667=66.7%. 66.7% is less than 70.3%.
135 nations support the recognition of a Palestinian State. 192 nations are members of The United Nations. 135/192=0.703125. 0.703125 is greater than 70.3%. 2/3=0.667=66.7%. 66.7% is less than 70.3%.
7
Good for the Palestinians. Israel has never negotiated with them in good faith and has no intention of ever giving up the West Bank. After 50 years of Israeli stalling and intransigence, they have no choice but to chart their own course. I wish them every success.
200
Israel has never negotiated in good faith with the Palestinians? Ehud Barak gave them virtually all they wanted but Yasser Arafat still said no? Are you just talking for the sake of talking or do you read history books?
8
You probably said the same thing before Israel gave up the Sinai, Gaza, Lebanon, and made offers to negotiate on the West Bank. This is the problem, Israel's not dealing with a rational actor. Negotiate, work the problem, don't make stuff up.
7
No Palestinian leader has the courage to negotiate a deal with Israel. They know it will cost them their life. This is the crux of the problem.
2
Let me get this straight: When Palestinians embrace armed resistance, they are "terrorists". When they pursue legal/diplomatic channels, they are being "confrontational". So, what exactly would Netanyahu like them to do? Just "sit idly by" while Israel continues to steal their land, water and other resources, massacre their children and turn their lives into an even more unbearable hell?
38
In a word: YES
1
The Palestinians ask for their legal rights under International Law and the UN Charter. Israeli demands for anything outside of its proclaimed and recognized boundaries (see the Israel plea for recognition to the USA) have no legal basis what so ever.
Furthermore, the Palestinians are under no legal obligation to negotiate. Even if they do negotiate, they are not under any legal obligation to forgo any of their legal rights so that Israel may keep what is not legally Israeli.
The truth be known, Israel cannot afford to adhere to the law, it would be sent bankrupt. A failed state. It is Israel who must negotiate in order to circumvent the laws the Jewish state has ignored for the past 67 years as it created its stupid, illegal 'facts on the ground'.
Furthermore, the Palestinians are under no legal obligation to negotiate. Even if they do negotiate, they are not under any legal obligation to forgo any of their legal rights so that Israel may keep what is not legally Israeli.
The truth be known, Israel cannot afford to adhere to the law, it would be sent bankrupt. A failed state. It is Israel who must negotiate in order to circumvent the laws the Jewish state has ignored for the past 67 years as it created its stupid, illegal 'facts on the ground'.
27
Mr. Ellis is wrong. The Palestinians do not meet the requirements of a State. Palestine does not have a recognized territory. By agreement, borders must be mutually agreed upon and there are no negotiations, let alone agreement. Furthermore, the current Palestinian government has been illegal since 2009 based on the 2005 Palestinian Basic Law. Thus, any international recognition of a Palestinian State at this point is based on politics and self-interest not International Law.
What is more troubling is that if Abbas was serious about about advancing the cause of Palestinian statehood, he would recognize that his actions - in the midst of a critical Israeli national election - will only serve to provide support to Israelis who do not believe that the current Palestinian leadership can be a partner for peace.
What is more troubling is that if Abbas was serious about about advancing the cause of Palestinian statehood, he would recognize that his actions - in the midst of a critical Israeli national election - will only serve to provide support to Israelis who do not believe that the current Palestinian leadership can be a partner for peace.
6
If one of the requirements for statehood is that borders must be mutually agreed on, then the Israelis are not entitled to a state.
Maybe they should be required to negotiate their right to a state with their Palestinian neighbors.
Maybe they should be required to negotiate their right to a state with their Palestinian neighbors.
4
The issue is control over a defined territory and that Israel has had since 1949. The only reason it had no borders back then was because the Arab belligerents refused to acknowledge Israel's existence. Unlike Israel, the PA arguably only has control over Area A but not anything more, including Gaza. If it had such control at one point in history but later lost it, the situation might be different from a legal perspective. However, as there never was a sovereign Palestinian state, the issue of statehood under the Montevideo Convention suggests the PA has yet to meet its conditions.
4
Indeed. Neither is Russia, Ukraine, Macedonia or Greece.
A friend of mine that is completely without any knowledge of this issue just read the article and his first question was: why is the government of Israel so cruel to these people? My answer was plain and simple: Because your tax dollars pays for it. It is time for American taxpayers to stop paying for the atrocities of the Israel government. If they had to pay their own bills they would come to the table very quickly.
29
From your comment, it would seem that you and your friend hold at least one thing in common.
2
Seems as if dealing with Israel requires world wide support, always has and if we allow it, always will. Starting with the Balfour agreement in 1917, Israel has never formally adhered to their restrictions and borders, requiring constant international involvement. Of course, Palestinians react to each overreach of land grab, containment and loss of citizenship.
This situation is like two children who consistently run to mama, and neither child is more right or wrong. We need to assure that both sides get equal treatment to stop bully actions and then let the kids work it out. Lets be fair, if cutting back on Palestinian funding, cut back equally on funding Israel.
This situation is like two children who consistently run to mama, and neither child is more right or wrong. We need to assure that both sides get equal treatment to stop bully actions and then let the kids work it out. Lets be fair, if cutting back on Palestinian funding, cut back equally on funding Israel.
3
The problem is that Palestinians will not recognize the borders established following the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence. If Palestinians, driven by an arrogant, greedy self-centered sense of entitlement to "all the land between the river (Jordan) and the sea (Mediterranean)," seek claims on all of Israel's territory, then all of the land is in dispute and Israel can assert claims to all, or parts of Judea and Samaria for settlements. The only solution to this dispute lies in negotiated borders, in which each state would exist within "secure and recognized boundaries," per UNSCR 242 and 338. When Palestinians are ready to negotiate and recognize that Israelis, just as themselves, are entitled to statehood aspirations, the conflict can be brought to an end.
5
An imposed "peace" will bring no peace at all. It will only harden the PA's adamant stance even further, and kill any chance for negotiations. No Israeli government, either of the left or of the reight, weill accept the imposition of a Palestinian state without taking Israel's vital interests into account.
Even a negotiated "peace" agreement with Abbas (as remote as that is, given the refusal of the PA tomake any significant concessions) will be exactly that and that only. There will be continuing war with Hamas, Hezbullah and the other Iranian proxies, and the millions upon millions of Islamic extremists in the Arab and Muslim world. Abbas does not even represent a majority of the Palestinian Arabs who want Israel gone totally.
An Abbas agreement will result in major and irrevocable Israeli concessions for nothing.
Even a negotiated "peace" agreement with Abbas (as remote as that is, given the refusal of the PA tomake any significant concessions) will be exactly that and that only. There will be continuing war with Hamas, Hezbullah and the other Iranian proxies, and the millions upon millions of Islamic extremists in the Arab and Muslim world. Abbas does not even represent a majority of the Palestinian Arabs who want Israel gone totally.
An Abbas agreement will result in major and irrevocable Israeli concessions for nothing.
8
Conveniently forgotten is the fact that the State of Israel was unilaterally created in 1947....essentially by declaring itself to be so. And it has been the announced objective....for years.....that Palestine be divided into Arab and Israeli States along specific lines. If not hypocritical, Netanyahu's statement that he would "not sit idly by" as Palestinians pursue an non-violent strategy, reveals his real objective...to block it permanently.
Meanwhile, the US is in schizophrenic mode, scolding Israel for freezing Palestinian tax revenue, while threatening to withhold the $400 Million aid package to the Palestinians.
Mr. Obama recently accelerated normal relations with Cuba on the basis that our policy of isolation over 50 plus years was obviously not working. The same could be applied to Palestinian statehood....in spades.
It is remarkable to hear Bibi threaten a non violent Palestinian approach with the same fervor as he responded to rockets. It's time we grew up and recognized the inevitability of a Palestinian state and work sensibly and peaceably with Israel while pushing it to that destination.
Meanwhile, the US is in schizophrenic mode, scolding Israel for freezing Palestinian tax revenue, while threatening to withhold the $400 Million aid package to the Palestinians.
Mr. Obama recently accelerated normal relations with Cuba on the basis that our policy of isolation over 50 plus years was obviously not working. The same could be applied to Palestinian statehood....in spades.
It is remarkable to hear Bibi threaten a non violent Palestinian approach with the same fervor as he responded to rockets. It's time we grew up and recognized the inevitability of a Palestinian state and work sensibly and peaceably with Israel while pushing it to that destination.
28
I sincerely hope the voters in Israel recognize the fact that breaking international laws and violating human rights have isolated Israel from the rest of the world, and that making enemies does not bode well for the future of their state.
33
Fascinating report. Hopeful development. Maybe a game changer?
The peace process hadn't broken down. It has done exactly what its architects intended. It was designed to create the illusion that something was being done. For the Israelis it offered cover for their program of illegal settlement building. And it provided full employment for diplomats world-wide. Good riddance to bad rubbish!
Bibi can huff and puff all he wants, but I don't think he's going to get traction for his strategy of portraying Palestine's application for membership of the ICC as a "confrontation."
Bibi has also miscalculated if he thinks that mean-spirited tactics like withholding government workers' pay checks is going to win Israel any friends.
Isn't it ironic? Palestine is joining the community of nations at just the same time as Israel's behavior signals that it wants to withdraw from it.
The peace process hadn't broken down. It has done exactly what its architects intended. It was designed to create the illusion that something was being done. For the Israelis it offered cover for their program of illegal settlement building. And it provided full employment for diplomats world-wide. Good riddance to bad rubbish!
Bibi can huff and puff all he wants, but I don't think he's going to get traction for his strategy of portraying Palestine's application for membership of the ICC as a "confrontation."
Bibi has also miscalculated if he thinks that mean-spirited tactics like withholding government workers' pay checks is going to win Israel any friends.
Isn't it ironic? Palestine is joining the community of nations at just the same time as Israel's behavior signals that it wants to withdraw from it.
20
The outlier in all this is our own U.S.A. whose leaders don't have the spine to recognize the repressive state that Israel has become. With whom do you think our colonial forefathers would have sympathized- King George Netanyahu or the Palestinians whose land has been occupied, whose rights have been stripped away and who have moved on to violence because they find themselves with no other recourse?
31
Whereas I support Israel's right to exist, I am gratified to see Abbas trying to force the issue in an International venue. And lo we see Netanyahu swelling with anger at the attempt to stop land seizures and rogue apartment construction, with the US no doubt complicit and coddling.
That the whole area is a mess is nothing new, but given the intransigent right-wingers backing Mr N I can understand the Palestinians willingness to try any gambit, even in the face of economic punishment.
I wonder how Americans would react in a similar situation, if, say Russia carved out California and exiled most of the population?
That the whole area is a mess is nothing new, but given the intransigent right-wingers backing Mr N I can understand the Palestinians willingness to try any gambit, even in the face of economic punishment.
I wonder how Americans would react in a similar situation, if, say Russia carved out California and exiled most of the population?
27
The American government will cut hundreds of millions to Palestine if they do not buckle under to American will. This is called extortion. I suppose extortion as a means of obtaining what one wants is better than the usual means, which is to drop bombs on people until they submit. No wonder the world tends to think of America and Israel when asked which countries threaten the world.
28
You need to understand the definition of extortion. It would be extortion if we demanded that the PA pay us $400M of their money. But if we are going to offer $400M of our own taxpayers' money, it sure as heck can be on our terms.
9
This approach seems new, which in and of itself is refreshing. Maybe the newness muddles perception, but it seems to be having the desired effect. Maybe, if Palestine acts like a state it will be treated like a state, instead of a lapdog.
8
Yes, I agree that Palestine is doing what it has to do to move the consideration forward. Who can blame them for despairing of progress at this point?
20
The title of Jodi Rudoren's article alone appearing as the lead article in today's NY Times makes a statement about how far the liberal press is willing to go to endorse peace without supporting the process of negotiation between the principals necessary to engender it. While I am not limited to accepting the American formula of negotiations I do believe that orchestrating a legal run around pursuing individual calls for justice which is the Palestinian by-word, may push both sides into a new phase of resistance, (peaceful and otherwise), that will in fact push peace out of reach for many years to come.
4
President Obama has reached out and is talking with Iran.
President Obama has reached out and is talking with Cuba.
Now it is time to reach and talk to the Palestinians and bring them into the brotherhood of man.
It is time. We can no longer bury our face in the sand and ignore them.
President Obama has reached out and is talking with Cuba.
Now it is time to reach and talk to the Palestinians and bring them into the brotherhood of man.
It is time. We can no longer bury our face in the sand and ignore them.
232
We haven't ignored them. Secretary of State Kerry was recently involved in attempting to negotiate a treaty.
2
President Obama desparately wants resolve the situation in a reasonable manner but Netanyahu is a pig-headed obstructionist, favoring his personal political ambitions over the consensus opinion of the majority of Israeli citizens.
The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.
(Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.)
(Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.)
30
The Palestinians do not deserve a state, they never have. Their sole contribution to the world has been terrorism. If they wanted a state, they could have had one many times in the past. At this point I believe that it should be taken off the table. If they want to live under Arab rule there are 23 place for them to go.
16
Interesting you would make this comment in response to these nonviolent political moves. No violence should not be justified; remember the terrorism conducted against the British and the UN to get the British out of Palestine and secure a Jewish state. And while some Israeli actions today are defensive, others are state terrorism, attempts to prolong their rule over Palestine by fear. I am ashamed to be Jewish when I read these blanket, self-serving, it's-all-black-and-white condemnations. I wonder who actually "deserves" their state.
3
Denying them a state guarantees a multinational state with Jews in the minority. Is that what you want?
1
Abbas, like Arafat before him, is afraid to negotiate a deal because he knows he will almost certainly be assassinated by hard-line Palestinians if he does. This is why he tries for the end around direct negotiations. It is cowardly, but clever.
9
I suspect that the US will agree to a Palestinian state after the 2016 elections.
17
I am afraid that the Administration will have to recognize the State of Palestine BEFORE the next US elections, because after the elections US foreign policy is going to led by an AIPAC-controlled Congress.
3
I'll take that bet and give you odds against it.
4
Not if Hillary wins.She's a tool for AIPAC
1
I look forward to Palestinian independence,
in the year 2432, give or take a decade.
in the year 2432, give or take a decade.
4
After over six decades of bloodshed and turmoil and no fair and just solution in sight, what alternatives does President Abbas have left? By using incendiary language both America and Israel are threatening the PA by withholding the essential funds resulting in more tension, hurting those employees when they they do not receive they salaries.
Whilst neither side is innocent, Israel boosted by American impotency further shows the world that two bullies are suppressing a long awaited statehood. More nations are recognising the Palestinian right for statehood leaving America and Israel isolated in the context of world opinion.
It's time for recognition not rhetoric.
Whilst neither side is innocent, Israel boosted by American impotency further shows the world that two bullies are suppressing a long awaited statehood. More nations are recognising the Palestinian right for statehood leaving America and Israel isolated in the context of world opinion.
It's time for recognition not rhetoric.
36
The article mentions towards the end that Israel has conducted criminal investigations of its military's behavior. What were the results? How long did they take? How thorough were they?
19
Netanyahu is digging himself and his country a deeper and deeper hole with his paranoid, "we-are-the-victim-and-always-have-been" rhetoric. It's enough. Face up to what you and your predecessors have done. Better yet, do your country a favor and let a leftist or even a centrist take over the political scene.
I recently read that the rate of Israelis abroad giving up citizenship has risen by 65% this year. Netanyahu, you've gone so far down the hole you've dug yourself that your starting to push away the country's own. It's enough. Get out of the way and let Israel and Palestine finally thrive side by side. You can let your paranoid thoughts fester if you wish, just not while running a country.
I recently read that the rate of Israelis abroad giving up citizenship has risen by 65% this year. Netanyahu, you've gone so far down the hole you've dug yourself that your starting to push away the country's own. It's enough. Get out of the way and let Israel and Palestine finally thrive side by side. You can let your paranoid thoughts fester if you wish, just not while running a country.
46
Actually the PLO charter, as well as Hamas, offiicially do call for the destruction of the state of Israel. This is fact, not paranoia.
The Palestinians have received Billions upon Billions of foreign aide and have squandered it on arms, propaganda and corruption. They haven't thrived much, and have responsibility 60 years later for some of the seeds they continue to sow.
The Palestinians have received Billions upon Billions of foreign aide and have squandered it on arms, propaganda and corruption. They haven't thrived much, and have responsibility 60 years later for some of the seeds they continue to sow.
6
Sir, netanyahu is the problem
Netanyahu has failed to integrate Israel in the region with the 20 Arab countries. Let us be like the nations and elect a new Prime Minister who will seek peace and pursue it until Israel can fully trade with all Arab and Muslim States. (Arab League proposal in 2002).
Netanyahu has failed to integrate Israel in the region with the 20 Arab countries. Let us be like the nations and elect a new Prime Minister who will seek peace and pursue it until Israel can fully trade with all Arab and Muslim States. (Arab League proposal in 2002).
2
Israel's failure to negotiate in good faith with moderate Palestinian leadership (Abbas and his Fatah party) has only encouraged the rise of the extremists, including the election win by Hamas in Gaza in 2006. Israel could have even taken advantage of the split between Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank following that election, by rewarding Abbas and punishing Gaza, but failed to do so. So the situation continued to deteriorate.
The responsibility for solving this conflict falls to Israel, because of its vastly superior military and economic strength. Transgressions by Palestinian militants doesn't excuse Israel from the responsibility to impose a fair and equitable solution.
The real problem is a lack of adult supervision on the Israeli side; their government is beholden to the extreme elements of Israeli society. The US is not doing our part either; instead we continue to reward Israeli intransigence with billions of dollars per year.
Yes, I support Israel's right to peacefully exist, but I also support that right for Palestine. ICC membership for Palestine is a positive step.
The responsibility for solving this conflict falls to Israel, because of its vastly superior military and economic strength. Transgressions by Palestinian militants doesn't excuse Israel from the responsibility to impose a fair and equitable solution.
The real problem is a lack of adult supervision on the Israeli side; their government is beholden to the extreme elements of Israeli society. The US is not doing our part either; instead we continue to reward Israeli intransigence with billions of dollars per year.
Yes, I support Israel's right to peacefully exist, but I also support that right for Palestine. ICC membership for Palestine is a positive step.
42
Those who see Abbas as moderate don't understand what is really happening
6
The Palestinians have every right to pursue this course. The problem is that no amount of international recognition can transform the Palestinian Authority into a viable state.
The expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem was designed to make a contiguous and cohesive Palestinian state an impossibility. It has succeeded just in time for some Israelis to realize that by making a two state solution impossible they have ensured that what will eventually emerge will be a single bi-national and democratic state in which Israeli Jews will have to recognize their Palestinian neighbors as people equally deserving of rights.
This is the horrible prospect that Israelis have in mind when they accuse the Palestinians of advocating "the destruction of the state of Israel." What they fear is not really the destruction of the Jewish people, which is not actually in the cards, but the dismantling of a regime that has privileged Jewish lives over Palestinian ones.
What the threat of US and Israeli sanctions reveal is that the Palestinian Authority is actually propping up the occupation. Its inevitable collapse can't come soon enough. And when it does, the Palestinian majority living between the Jordan River and the sea will not be satisfied with more promises of a hemmed in pseudo-state on the least desirable 22% of the land. They will rightly demand full equality in the whole territory and reparations for their half-century of dispossession. Change is coming.
The expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem was designed to make a contiguous and cohesive Palestinian state an impossibility. It has succeeded just in time for some Israelis to realize that by making a two state solution impossible they have ensured that what will eventually emerge will be a single bi-national and democratic state in which Israeli Jews will have to recognize their Palestinian neighbors as people equally deserving of rights.
This is the horrible prospect that Israelis have in mind when they accuse the Palestinians of advocating "the destruction of the state of Israel." What they fear is not really the destruction of the Jewish people, which is not actually in the cards, but the dismantling of a regime that has privileged Jewish lives over Palestinian ones.
What the threat of US and Israeli sanctions reveal is that the Palestinian Authority is actually propping up the occupation. Its inevitable collapse can't come soon enough. And when it does, the Palestinian majority living between the Jordan River and the sea will not be satisfied with more promises of a hemmed in pseudo-state on the least desirable 22% of the land. They will rightly demand full equality in the whole territory and reparations for their half-century of dispossession. Change is coming.
186
"What they fear is not really the destruction of the Jewish people, which is not actually in the cards, but the dismantling of a regime that has privileged Jewish lives over Palestinian ones."
You've hit the nail on the head. I'm so sick of the tired "they are seeking the destruction of the Jewish state." Absolute nonsense and just another paranoid line and a card Israel's crazies have manipulatively played for far too long.
You've hit the nail on the head. I'm so sick of the tired "they are seeking the destruction of the Jewish state." Absolute nonsense and just another paranoid line and a card Israel's crazies have manipulatively played for far too long.
10
Actually the PLO charter, as well as Hamas, offiicially do call for the destruction of the state of Israel. This is fact, not paranoia.
7
The "horrible prospect" the Jews have in mind is to live with security and peace in a region where they are outnumbered 50 to 1. As the article points out, Abbas is bending over backwards NOT to negotiate a deal because he knows he can't sell it to his people. And this doesn't even address Hamas and their steadfast goal to wipe Israel off the map.
5
The Palestinians may be gaining psychological compensation for the failure to act like adults and negotiate with Israel, but they will gain "no momentum" towards a state. To do that they must negotiate with their enemy. It is difficult to understand why this article fails to make that simple point. On the ground nothing will change. Though it may buoy spirits for a time, this is imaginary progress will come back to bite those who are making claims that it represents actual progress. The approach also underscores why there may NEVER be peace. The refusal even to acknowledge your enemy to the extent of negotiating with him means one labors under the delusion he will just go away. That is not going to happen. When this tactic comes crashing down, what will come next?
7
They won't negotiate because Netanyahu won't stop building and expanding settlements and insists that Fatah cut all ties with Hamas which would amount to political suicide.
16
Did the US negotiate with Great Britain when it declared independence? The British Colonies in America tried negotiations and then they declared themselves independent after negotiations failed. The United States did not exist until the declaration and thus did not negotiate with Great Britain until the close of war.
Sufficient grievances remained after the war of Independence to lead to US/British involvement in the War of 1812, the sacking of Washington D.C. and the burning of the White House. A cessation of negotiations, historically preceded the founding of many states.
Sufficient grievances remained after the war of Independence to lead to US/British involvement in the War of 1812, the sacking of Washington D.C. and the burning of the White House. A cessation of negotiations, historically preceded the founding of many states.
1
It may well be "political suicide" for Fatah to cut ties to Hamas, but the charter of Hamas calls for Israel's destruction and will permit no negotiations. So where does that leave us? Do the Palestinians have ANY RESPONSIBILITY to face reality or will you simply let them off the hook as if they are children? Unless and until Israel has a negotiating partner there cannot be negotiations. Hamas will never accept Israel's right to exist. And as for the "settlements," housing in areas that are "disputed" not "occupied" according to international law, do you honestly believe that's the problem? Both Fatah and Hamas consider Haifa and Tel-Aviv "occupied territory." What you are saying simply is that you side with the Palestinians.
3
“Go and read a history book. It's very difficult to see results when the Palestinians have refused EVERY offer in their favor given them in the last 50 years.” Just think about this for a second: If someone broke into your house, occupied a room or two and then offered you your own living room to live in, would you accept this offer? It might be hard for some to understand this sitting in their nice warm chair blaming the Palestinian for resisting the occupation thousand of miles away.
29
Its interesting that your "reader's picks" are overwhelmingly in support of the Palestinian position. Yet in the NYT Picks there are no such statements among the top five. Thus the NYT reveals its own bias which often reaches into its coverage of the Palestinian Israeli conflict.
37
I find this so hard to digest. The Palestinians are in roughly the same place as the Polish Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto before the uprising; the Israelis are in roughly the same place as the Germans. The Israeli position is that any Palestinian uprising would mean overwhelming Israeli repression.
When I say this is hard to digest, I mean I understand what's happening. It just makes me sick to my stomach.
When I say this is hard to digest, I mean I understand what's happening. It just makes me sick to my stomach.
33
In any dispute, there comes a point when one party has to take legal action if it wishes to ever achieve its goals. The Palestinians understandably want a state of their own and a world judicial forum to protect them; as they are unable to protect themselves militarily. The UN created Israel, and its time for the UN to now create a Palestinian state; as well as a world boycott of Israel if it does not honor a UN created Palestinian state or Palestinian membership in the ICC. Otherwise, the Palestinians will never get their state, and eventually all the land that was to comprise their state will be slathered with Israeli settlements.
I actually prefer Israeli culture, and its respect for the LGBT community, But even Israel's long standing support of LGBT rights was recently diluted by a weird Rabbinical Court ruling, and the Israeli Supreme Court's refusal to review the decision.
Thus, even though I look down on the Palestinians for their anti-LGBT attitude, it is clear to me that their attempt to legally obtain their state is just and correct.
I actually prefer Israeli culture, and its respect for the LGBT community, But even Israel's long standing support of LGBT rights was recently diluted by a weird Rabbinical Court ruling, and the Israeli Supreme Court's refusal to review the decision.
Thus, even though I look down on the Palestinians for their anti-LGBT attitude, it is clear to me that their attempt to legally obtain their state is just and correct.
13
Philip,
You state that "The UN created Israel, and its time for the UN to now create a Palestinian state". Actually, the UN did that in 1947-48 when they partitioned the land into Jewish and an Arab States. Israel accepted that but was promptly invaded by the armies of 5 Arab nations. This partition was on a relatively small portion of Palestine, as defined by the British mandate over Palestine. The large majority of Palestine had already been given by Britain to the Arabs to form the Kingdom of Jordan. I strongly support two States living side by side in peace and security. But this process needs to start with facts and not with made up assertions.
You state that "The UN created Israel, and its time for the UN to now create a Palestinian state". Actually, the UN did that in 1947-48 when they partitioned the land into Jewish and an Arab States. Israel accepted that but was promptly invaded by the armies of 5 Arab nations. This partition was on a relatively small portion of Palestine, as defined by the British mandate over Palestine. The large majority of Palestine had already been given by Britain to the Arabs to form the Kingdom of Jordan. I strongly support two States living side by side in peace and security. But this process needs to start with facts and not with made up assertions.
8
It's exciting to see a leader in this stalemate taking action and generating inertia. Given that the goals of the right-wing government in Israel appear to be maintaining the status-quo by continuing the policy of evictions and settlement expansion in the West Bank; it's clear that their real objective is to maintain a quiet war of attrition and dislocation of Palestinian communities.
While both sides have blood on their hands, people have to be honest with the reality of this issue. Breaking the impasse requires bold decision-making that could be painful in the short term, and this applies to both sides. For the Palestinians, the alternative is simply allowing the Israeli government to drag their feet and slow walk the issue, while playing the PR game in the media. What benefit does it serve Abbas to wait around, while the current Israeli leadership has no real desire to negotiate under the "two state" framework?
While both sides have blood on their hands, people have to be honest with the reality of this issue. Breaking the impasse requires bold decision-making that could be painful in the short term, and this applies to both sides. For the Palestinians, the alternative is simply allowing the Israeli government to drag their feet and slow walk the issue, while playing the PR game in the media. What benefit does it serve Abbas to wait around, while the current Israeli leadership has no real desire to negotiate under the "two state" framework?
17
The tide is turning, and Israel's government and its supporters in the United States are beginning to sense it. Thus, the Obama Administration's threat to end $400 million of aid to the Palestinian Authority, harsher measures promised by the Israeli government, and publicists, such as Dennis Ross, decrying the Palestinian bid to join the International Criminal Court.
However harsh these cries and measures become, they will not turn back this movement, which, like the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, will result in a free and independent Palestine.
A shameful period began in 1946, when in order to salve its conscience the United States and other Christian-heritage societies refused entry to the remnant of the Jewish people in Europe and encouraged them to emigrate to the land of an innocent third party, Palestine. This historic iniquity is now being righted.
However harsh these cries and measures become, they will not turn back this movement, which, like the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, will result in a free and independent Palestine.
A shameful period began in 1946, when in order to salve its conscience the United States and other Christian-heritage societies refused entry to the remnant of the Jewish people in Europe and encouraged them to emigrate to the land of an innocent third party, Palestine. This historic iniquity is now being righted.
33
So, the Palestinians act aggressively, they get entire parts of their city blown up. The Palestinians act diplomatically, they get their salaries cut. So, I guess the strategy is, blow up what is left of the West Bank, cut salaries, and build settlements --- sounds like a winning strategy.
28
It has been working very very well for Israel for several decades now.
Why change a strategy that has gotten you so much for so long?
Why change a strategy that has gotten you so much for so long?
1
The only acceptable solution is the formation of a single secular State in which religious freedom is guaranteed to all and all citizens are allowed to participate freely in the government. Such a solution effectively negates the need to have a Jewish or an Islamic State, while maintaining complete religious freedom. Once initiated, the whole process can begin with a week of forgiveness and reconciliation for all past aggressions. That may be a difficult thing to do; however., it is a necessary step to advance the cause of peace for future generations. Granted, it takes courage to do this. But, the reward will be great and lasting.
9
'Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.'--- John F. Kennedy
It appears that Netanyahu is moving the the direction of the inevitable. He is retaliating against the Palestinians for seeking peaceful redress for their grievances in the UN. In addition, he appears to be retaliating against the Palestinians for their success in persuading other countries as to the legitimacy of the Palestinian cause. If Israel objects to the way other countries have voted in the UN, she should retaliate against them, not the residents of a territory she occupies.
It appears that Netanyahu is moving the the direction of the inevitable. He is retaliating against the Palestinians for seeking peaceful redress for their grievances in the UN. In addition, he appears to be retaliating against the Palestinians for their success in persuading other countries as to the legitimacy of the Palestinian cause. If Israel objects to the way other countries have voted in the UN, she should retaliate against them, not the residents of a territory she occupies.
289
If Netanyahu is moving toward the "inevitable" , then upon arrival, he will find that the Palestinians have been there all along waiting for him.
1
It appears that the Palestinians are retaliating against Israel for the UN's partition in 1947, oh and losing the war they started in 1948.
1
It's hard to fathom how "painful retaliation from Israel and Washington is a justified response to the Palestinian people's desire for statehood and justice in the International Court.
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has promised not to sit idly by in the face of what he called Palestinian confrontation."
We in the rest of the world are giving notice that this kind of Newspeak will no longer be believed believed, condoned, or supported.
The Palestinian people deserve statehood. They deserve to be able to seek justice through the International Criminal Court.
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has promised not to sit idly by in the face of what he called Palestinian confrontation."
We in the rest of the world are giving notice that this kind of Newspeak will no longer be believed believed, condoned, or supported.
The Palestinian people deserve statehood. They deserve to be able to seek justice through the International Criminal Court.
50
Arabs have consistently and continually rejected statehood, Peel Commission, UN Partition, Khartoum Conf., Camp David etc.
5
The key phrase is in the second paragraph of the article: "is what Palestinians are betting could eventually force changes on the ground — without their leaders having to make the concessions or assurances they have long avoided."
Many in Israel and outside of Israel would support a Palestinian State so long as there were guarantees that Israel would also continue to exist. Everyone knows what concessions are required: a sharing of the Old City (which differs from East Jerusalem becoming the capitol of the Palestinian State, since East Jerusalem contains the Old City); relinquishing the "Right of Return" which would change Israel from a Jewish majority state to a Muslim country; and a recognition of two states for two people, an explicit statement that the end game is not the elimination of Israel. And of course, but even more difficult, Hamas must make the same agreement. The issue is not the creation of a Palestinian State, it is the need for compromise on both sides.
Many in Israel and outside of Israel would support a Palestinian State so long as there were guarantees that Israel would also continue to exist. Everyone knows what concessions are required: a sharing of the Old City (which differs from East Jerusalem becoming the capitol of the Palestinian State, since East Jerusalem contains the Old City); relinquishing the "Right of Return" which would change Israel from a Jewish majority state to a Muslim country; and a recognition of two states for two people, an explicit statement that the end game is not the elimination of Israel. And of course, but even more difficult, Hamas must make the same agreement. The issue is not the creation of a Palestinian State, it is the need for compromise on both sides.
10
If you believe in the 2 state solution, there must be an Israel, right?
1
Palestinians don't pay taxes to Israel because they have no state. If they get their own state, guess what?
3
There is nothing anti-Semitic about demanding human rights for Palestinians, demanding that they have self-determination, and demanding that Israel stop the massive killing of civilians. Netanyahu dishonors the memory of the Jews who suffered at the hands of the Nazis (including my parents) by perpetuating the ethnic cleansing begun in 1948. Time for the international community to insist on full self-determination for Palestinians. And Obama should be as bold here as he was with Cuba.
52
Every time a state as offered, Peel Commission, UN Partition, Khartoum Conf., Camp David, it as rejected. It is clear they do not want a state. They prefer the elimination of Israel
5
"The strategy has also upset Washington, which is expected to cut $400 million in aid to the Palestinian Authority if the International Criminal Court bid is not reversed."
I can't tell you how heartbreaking it is to read this....why, WHY will we not also cut off funding to Israel if it continues to build settlements?
I can't tell you how heartbreaking it is to read this....why, WHY will we not also cut off funding to Israel if it continues to build settlements?
463
Why? Because Aipac sets our Mideast policy.
20
The reason why we should cut off government finding to Israel is not to make them bend to our will but simply because they don't need it. A lot has changed since Israel was an undeveloped, third-world, backwater country populated by remnants of the Holocaust.
Israel is now a vibrant society with a good economy. They are leaders in medical, defense, and technology innovations, among other industries. They have many patents and quite a few Nobel Prize winners. They weathered the recent recession very well. They are presently developing what should be very lucrative gas wells off their coast. Forbes reports that they have billionaires and many millionaires. If Israel needs money get it from them, not US.
We don't give money to France, do we?
Privately, contribute all the money you want.
Israel is now a vibrant society with a good economy. They are leaders in medical, defense, and technology innovations, among other industries. They have many patents and quite a few Nobel Prize winners. They weathered the recent recession very well. They are presently developing what should be very lucrative gas wells off their coast. Forbes reports that they have billionaires and many millionaires. If Israel needs money get it from them, not US.
We don't give money to France, do we?
Privately, contribute all the money you want.
10
The better question is, why aren't the Palestinians using all of the money they get from the Qataris and others to build their own settlements or otherwise improve their communities? Where is this money going?
Have you ever been to the West Bank? There is lots of space there!
Have you ever been to the West Bank? There is lots of space there!
6
I have news for Natanyahou. The Middle East is changing and changing fast. He better be careful. There are more crazies out there than anybody can contain. Just be very careful.
3
This is the best move for them, hands down. They will finally seek justice against an apartheid state that has subjugated and dehumanized them for decades. Israel will finally have to pay for its crimes (and if there is any proof that attacks from the Palestinian side were anything but self-defense, then they will have to answer as well).
Anyone who objects to this move can only be afraid that Israel will no longer be getting a "pass" (thank you David Ross? No, never mind) for murder and illegal settlements.
Anyone who objects to this move can only be afraid that Israel will no longer be getting a "pass" (thank you David Ross? No, never mind) for murder and illegal settlements.
40
Palestine should have been granted statehood the same day that Israel was granted statehood.
The fact that defined international boundaries were not set back in 1948 is the reason for all this continuing conflict. And, all the while, the Israeli government has continued to chip away at Palestinian territory with more and more 'settlements' erected year after year.
Russia gets international sanctions for seizing and annexing Crimea. Israel gets a pass each and every time they take a chunk of Palestine. Why is that?
The fact that defined international boundaries were not set back in 1948 is the reason for all this continuing conflict. And, all the while, the Israeli government has continued to chip away at Palestinian territory with more and more 'settlements' erected year after year.
Russia gets international sanctions for seizing and annexing Crimea. Israel gets a pass each and every time they take a chunk of Palestine. Why is that?
46
Roger you better check your history. They were in fact offered morre then half of Israel in 1947. Just like always, they turned it down. What you and oters do not realize is they are not interested in land they are only ONLY interested in getting rid of the Jews.
16
not only was statehood rejected, but 5 surrounding arab lands attacked the nascent state of Israel. Likewise, other offers were rejected, Peel Commission, Khartoum Conf., Camp David. It is clear that they ant the elimination of Israel.
8
Why? Because Congress kowtows to Aipac.
3
Joining the ICC has been well accepted by the rest of the world and this is driving BiBi crazy. Now he wants to retaliate with further blackmailing, but the saddest part of this story is that the US is joining him in this vile effort.
35
All of these international gambits ignore the critical fact that the increasingly fractious Palestinian leadership contains a significant element pledged to the destruction of Israel. Israel has a long experience with significant forces committed to its destruction, and quickly unifies its resistance to any such threats. The path to peace for Palestine is to bring to the table a realistic promise to recognize Israel's right to exist without the mythical twists of saying that Hamas (which has broad support among Palestinians) will not be part of this process. Until that point, all of this stuff is the proverbial rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
76
Have you read the Likud platform? Have you heard or read (on these pages) the vision of Naftali Bennett? Moshe Feiglin?
Hamas was down and nearly out, and that is why they signed on to the unity pact with Fatah. What did Israel do? It arrested Hamas operatives in the West Bank (claiming they were responsible for the abduction / death of three Yeshiva students), reneged on the agreed to release of the final batch Palestinian prisoners, and escalated the bombing of Gaza.
So, yes, Hamas had signed on to be part of the "process". Israel deliberately undermined that agreement.
Hamas was down and nearly out, and that is why they signed on to the unity pact with Fatah. What did Israel do? It arrested Hamas operatives in the West Bank (claiming they were responsible for the abduction / death of three Yeshiva students), reneged on the agreed to release of the final batch Palestinian prisoners, and escalated the bombing of Gaza.
So, yes, Hamas had signed on to be part of the "process". Israel deliberately undermined that agreement.
3
Just remember Israel is also on the Titanic, and its failure to attempt to seriously negotiate is a key reason why. Yes, there are groups committed to Israel's destruction, but without Palestinian aspirations for independence and statehood met, there is no chance for peace; with one, there is a small chance.
1
And Israel's goal has always been to drive the Palestinian out of their homes and their territory so that Israel can take it over.
1
Sounds like old school to me to believe that the Palestinians goal is to destroy Israel. They may be besides themselves, to say the least, about what's happened to their homeland over the last 100 years, but most people would like to move on with their lives. Although some Palestinians may be disgruntled for quite some time, and breaking the law will require police action, they are no different than other indigineous peoples who have been displaced. But refusing human rights under the false guise that Israel is concerned about their security is really a red herring that obscures a certain faction that really wants it all. And if that's the case, there WILL be unrest forever.
23
The Arab world rejected an independent Palestine in 1947, when the UN voted to create two states in the British Mandate of Palestine. It did so again with the Three No's of Khartoum in 1967. It did it again at Taba in 2001.
On June 6, 2004, the Israeli government voted to withdraw from Gaza.
Israel was about to leave Gaza and let its citizens create their own state—albeit a small state.
Instead, on July 9, 2005, 171 non-governmental organizations voted to boycott, divest from, and impose sanctions against Israel. That was the beginning of the BDS Movement.
An independent Palestine can exist only with Israel, not against it. If Israel is destroyed, the neighboring states will annex the land and persecute the Palestinians, as they always have.
There is no Palestine on the ISIS map of the future world.
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/09/173496-world-according-isis-terrorist-ar...
On June 6, 2004, the Israeli government voted to withdraw from Gaza.
Israel was about to leave Gaza and let its citizens create their own state—albeit a small state.
Instead, on July 9, 2005, 171 non-governmental organizations voted to boycott, divest from, and impose sanctions against Israel. That was the beginning of the BDS Movement.
An independent Palestine can exist only with Israel, not against it. If Israel is destroyed, the neighboring states will annex the land and persecute the Palestinians, as they always have.
There is no Palestine on the ISIS map of the future world.
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/09/173496-world-according-isis-terrorist-ar...
13
The Preamble to the Chart of the United Nations describes the UN's purpose. Recognizing "the scourge of war," the UN sets out to facilitate "maintain[ing] international peace and security, and to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest...." Turning to this international body to resolve conflict when neither direct negotiations nor violence has led to a resolution goes to the heart of the UN's mission.
The idea, put forth by the U.S. and Israel, that people without an army who have lived since 1967 under internationally-recognized occupation by a nuclear-armed nation, are in the wrong for reaching out to the international community through the UN defies common sense. The UN was designed to help find non-violent, just resolutions to situations like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The idea, put forth by the U.S. and Israel, that people without an army who have lived since 1967 under internationally-recognized occupation by a nuclear-armed nation, are in the wrong for reaching out to the international community through the UN defies common sense. The UN was designed to help find non-violent, just resolutions to situations like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
22
It appears that the image that Israel and the media push, in characterizing the Palestinians as a bunch of illiterate and unsophisticated people running around in the desert is starting to crack. The fact that just trying to gain their legal borders without begging the U.S. and Israel will be met with the cruelty that has always been the response by Israel to any attempt by the Palestinians to show the world it is a country that was cast aside to creat Israel, a real country with centuries of history and a population that is educated, articulate and not deserving of the thrashing it has taken for the last 66 years. It is time for the U.S. to stand behind them and stop the bully tactics of Israel.
34
"without their leaders having to make the concessions or assurances they have long avoided," that says it all. The fact that other countries and the media are willing to accept this as the way to define borders and impose such actions on Israel without considering the latter's security says even more about their intentions to reduce Israel to an indefensible state. The Palestinians will have a neutral entity determine their status and can say to their base--see no compromise needed.
3
With world anti-semitism on the rise, it is not surprising that Palestinian statehood is gaining traction. Fortunately, the Israelis don't really care what happens in European parliaments and never have. While the world rather see Palestinians being persecuted and killed by Hamas and ISIS, Israel will continue its primary function of protecting world Jewry at all costs.
This article correctly points out that the Palestinian goal is to avoid making any concessions but fails to identify the acceptance of this approach by the world as a product of long standing and deep rooted antisemitism.
This article correctly points out that the Palestinian goal is to avoid making any concessions but fails to identify the acceptance of this approach by the world as a product of long standing and deep rooted antisemitism.
15
If anti-Semitism is in fact on the rise, Israeli policies, such as maintaining and expanding settlements, have to be a key reason why.And then anti-Semitism is used to justify hardline policies, so you have a self-perpetuating cycle. "Protecting world Jewry?" I believe Israel is endangering me.
You state that the Israelis don't care about European policies, but fail to mention that Israel is massively dependent upon the U.S. But the status quo cannot endure indefinitely, as it makes the U.S. vulnerable. What then will Israel do? They need to make peace.
You state that the Israelis don't care about European policies, but fail to mention that Israel is massively dependent upon the U.S. But the status quo cannot endure indefinitely, as it makes the U.S. vulnerable. What then will Israel do? They need to make peace.
3
"This article correctly points out that the Palestinian goal is to avoid making any concessions."
The Palestinians are the only ones who have ever made concessions, and they've gotten very little in return. Israel, on the other hand, has continued to occupy and/or control land to which it has zero right, in defiance of UN Res. 242 and 338 (specifically) and the Fourth Geneva Convention and the UN Charter (generally).
And perhaps this is why you've got it backwards with respect to the rise of world anti-Semitism. Think back to the 50s, 60s, and 70s, when the world regarded Palestinians as terrorists and Israelis as heroic Davids. That the world's sympathy today lies with Palestinians is a direct result of Israel's theft of land acquired in war, in defiance of international law, and the grotesque collective punishment meted out on innocent civilians throughout the Occupied Territories.
It is deplorable ignorance, of course, that a segment of the world would conflate the world’s oldest humanitarian religion with the actions of a government that routinely violates international humanitarian law. It’s unclear whether that ignorance is as deplorable as the ignorance that is the only excuse for those who would defend the actions of that government.
The Palestinians are the only ones who have ever made concessions, and they've gotten very little in return. Israel, on the other hand, has continued to occupy and/or control land to which it has zero right, in defiance of UN Res. 242 and 338 (specifically) and the Fourth Geneva Convention and the UN Charter (generally).
And perhaps this is why you've got it backwards with respect to the rise of world anti-Semitism. Think back to the 50s, 60s, and 70s, when the world regarded Palestinians as terrorists and Israelis as heroic Davids. That the world's sympathy today lies with Palestinians is a direct result of Israel's theft of land acquired in war, in defiance of international law, and the grotesque collective punishment meted out on innocent civilians throughout the Occupied Territories.
It is deplorable ignorance, of course, that a segment of the world would conflate the world’s oldest humanitarian religion with the actions of a government that routinely violates international humanitarian law. It’s unclear whether that ignorance is as deplorable as the ignorance that is the only excuse for those who would defend the actions of that government.
3
Neil - it is particularly offensive when you accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being either anti-Jewish racists (all the Arabs of what ever religious persuasion are Semitic people) or even more despicably a 'Jewish selfhater'.
It is the typical 'ad homonym' argument of morally and intellectually bankrupt. Sort of like knee jerk anti-Americanism.
It is the typical 'ad homonym' argument of morally and intellectually bankrupt. Sort of like knee jerk anti-Americanism.
1
Only an idiot would believe that the US is an honest broker; it has always been an impediment to peace. This will always hold true: the farther you move away from the US, the better results the Palestinians would get. It's insane that we are still tolerating the existence of the largest occupation on the face of earth in 2015.
For ICC: It's time to bring the war-criminals to justice.
For ICC: It's time to bring the war-criminals to justice.
40
The Palestinians should bring war crime charges against the UN for giving their land away to invaders and then preventing them from obtaining representation, a redress of grievances and their basic inalienable human rights. For representatives of the UN to continue to deny them these basic rights is criminal and they should be charged and punished appropriately. They can start the redress of grievances by canceling the UN resolutions that gave their land away, bring the people that have authorized and supported the occupation of their land, the suppression of their inalienable human rights and prevention of representation to justice and start dismantling the occupation. To say their land is not theirs to manage and enjoy speaks of very old arrogance, racism, bigotry and selfishness and puts the occupiers in the position of being hated oppressors. The oppressors will never know peace, in this lifetime or the next for where there is no justice there can be no peace. Until the land is returned to the Palestinians a black mark identifies humanity as unworthy of rectitude. By your actions and lack thereof you demonstrate tacitly what you consider to be acceptable behavior. Mathew 18:18. As you do unto others so shall be done unto you.
11
I don't care about this issue anymore. What's next, an in-depth analysis of the Quebec separatist movement, or perhaps something about whether to continue saying "Northern Rhodesia?" I'd have more to say but the Ali-Foreman fight is about to start . . . .
1
Let us please stop borrowing cash from the Chinese to send it to the Palestinians.
10
Just because Palestinians enjoy world sympathy does not mean they are right and they should get a state. Almost half of UN member states are Muslim. There is only one Jewish state. 2 billion Muslims vs. 20 million Jews. The majority is not always right. The majority is severely biased.
16
Actually there are no Christian or Muslim states. There is only one religious state on this earth and it has been coddled by the richest and most powerful state on the planet, and that is Isreal. Sorry, the worlds majority is right on this one.
19
Carter: Israel is the nationstate of the Jewish People which is as an ethnic group not a religious one. It is a distinction that is difficult to grasp in our post-religious West, because Judaism and being a Jew are mistakenly spoken of as if interchangeable. Sorry to disappoint, but Israel is not a theocracy under any accepted definition of the term.
As to there being no Muslim states in the world, do you really need to support your opinion with statements that are so easily shown to be false? You can start with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran, then move on from there.
As to there being no Muslim states in the world, do you really need to support your opinion with statements that are so easily shown to be false? You can start with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran, then move on from there.
7
@Carter Cohn. Wrong. There is at least one true Islamic theocracy in this world--Iran in which minorities cannot sue a Shia Muslim in a court of law and other laws imposed by sharia. Mylasia has a separate group of 'police' to enforce sharia law on other Muslims. There are many countries titled the Islamic republic of "fill in the blank." England has a state-designated church and the queen is the head of that church. Many European countries incorporate the cross into their flags. Israel operates under the Ottoman rules where each religious organization is responsible for marriage, death, divorce, and other issues. That's the extent of your so-called religious state. If you have a valid point to make, make it, but don't make up stories, aka lie.
2
It's hard to deny that Palestinian Arabs got shafted when the UN created Israel in 1948 to make recompense for what the Germans did. The Jews got a state while the Palestinians largely were exiled or got to live in refugee camps scattered throughout the region for no money. Not fair.
The UN, an international quasi-government body, should have invoked the legal Doctrine of Eminent Domain and awarded Just Compensation to all who lost property as a result of the UN's creation of Israel, including Jews who got kicked out of Arab countries. That's fair. The funds would come from UN sources.
Presently, give the parties a little more time to come to a negotiated settlement while letting the parties know that if they fail a settlement will be imposed upon them and that the world will recognize that imposed settlement which will be enforced by international UN peacekeepers until the parties get the message. The UN will establish and the world community will recognize reasonable borders which reflect where people actually live TODAY, not in 1948, 1967 or 2,000 years ago.
Jewish Settlers who wind up on the Palestinian side of the line, if they legally purchased their land, can stay in Palestine and become full citizens of the State of Palestine, whether the Israelis or the Arabs like it or not. After 67 years of this nonsense we don't care if they like it. Israel has Arabs, Palestine can have Jews. It's the same thing. Settlers,,,,, enjoy!
The UN, an international quasi-government body, should have invoked the legal Doctrine of Eminent Domain and awarded Just Compensation to all who lost property as a result of the UN's creation of Israel, including Jews who got kicked out of Arab countries. That's fair. The funds would come from UN sources.
Presently, give the parties a little more time to come to a negotiated settlement while letting the parties know that if they fail a settlement will be imposed upon them and that the world will recognize that imposed settlement which will be enforced by international UN peacekeepers until the parties get the message. The UN will establish and the world community will recognize reasonable borders which reflect where people actually live TODAY, not in 1948, 1967 or 2,000 years ago.
Jewish Settlers who wind up on the Palestinian side of the line, if they legally purchased their land, can stay in Palestine and become full citizens of the State of Palestine, whether the Israelis or the Arabs like it or not. After 67 years of this nonsense we don't care if they like it. Israel has Arabs, Palestine can have Jews. It's the same thing. Settlers,,,,, enjoy!
172
Actually, in 1947 the U.N. called for the creation of 2 states: an Arab and a Jewish state. Whereas the Jews created Israel, the Arabs rejected this proposal and declared war. A 2 state solution is long over due.
5
Sorry to correct this idea, but the UN is not a 'quasi-government body'. In 1947, the UN served as simply a mediator for governments. It was a full government body, nothing really 'quazi' about it.
The UN budget is funded almost entirely from member states. The US funds around 20% of the total. So, paying out compensation to refugees without the consent of the US would have largely destroyed the UN. The US would have retaliated by withdrawing all of its funding.
UN peacekeeping forces are made up mostly of army personnel from developing states (i.e. Bangladesh, Nepal, India, Brazil etc.). Though they are often successful in their duties, the UN Peacekeeping force does not have the capacity to impose any sort of border between Israel and Palestine, especially against the agreement of either of those states. The Israeli army is extremely powerful and could override UN peacekeeping forces (not to mention, UN peacekeeping forces often only have the ability to impose peace through self defense, not aggressive action).
I do like your idea of settlers legally purchasing land in Israel and becoming citizens of Palestine if they so wish! what an interesting proposal...but alas, given how things currently stand the fear mongering among the communities is probably to great for this to succeed.
The UN budget is funded almost entirely from member states. The US funds around 20% of the total. So, paying out compensation to refugees without the consent of the US would have largely destroyed the UN. The US would have retaliated by withdrawing all of its funding.
UN peacekeeping forces are made up mostly of army personnel from developing states (i.e. Bangladesh, Nepal, India, Brazil etc.). Though they are often successful in their duties, the UN Peacekeeping force does not have the capacity to impose any sort of border between Israel and Palestine, especially against the agreement of either of those states. The Israeli army is extremely powerful and could override UN peacekeeping forces (not to mention, UN peacekeeping forces often only have the ability to impose peace through self defense, not aggressive action).
I do like your idea of settlers legally purchasing land in Israel and becoming citizens of Palestine if they so wish! what an interesting proposal...but alas, given how things currently stand the fear mongering among the communities is probably to great for this to succeed.
1
you write "Jewish Settlers who wind up on the Palestinian side of the line, if they legally purchased their land, can stay in Palestine and become full citizens of the State of Palestine." Really? That's not what Palestinians say Ambassador Maen Rashid Areikat was asked:“When you imagine a future Palestinian state, do you imagine it being a place where Jews, if they wish to become Palestinian citizens, could own property, vote in elections, and practice their religion freely?”Areikat responded by saying that, with the exception of the late PLO official Faisal Husseini, “no Palestinian leader has publicly supported the notion that they [Israelis] can stay [in a Palestinian state]”.The interviewer then asked: “So, you think it would be necessary to first transfer and remove every Jew – ” and Areikat responded: “Absolutely. No, I’m not saying to transfer every Jew, I’m saying transfer Jews who, after an agreement with Israel, fall under the jurisdiction of a Palestinian state.”
Again, the interviewer asked: “Any Jew who is inside the borders of Palestine will have to leave?” Areikat once again: “Absolutely. I think this is a very necessary step, before we can allow the two states to somehow develop their separate national identities, and then maybe open up the doors for all kinds of cultural, social, political, economic exchanges, that freedom of movement of both citizens of Israelis and Palestinians from one area to another. You know you have to think of the day after.”
Again, the interviewer asked: “Any Jew who is inside the borders of Palestine will have to leave?” Areikat once again: “Absolutely. I think this is a very necessary step, before we can allow the two states to somehow develop their separate national identities, and then maybe open up the doors for all kinds of cultural, social, political, economic exchanges, that freedom of movement of both citizens of Israelis and Palestinians from one area to another. You know you have to think of the day after.”
7
The West Bank (of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan) became LEGALLY occupied by Israel following the 1967 war of aggression by Arabs - Jordan - against Israel.
If the Palestinians want to end the 'occupation', THEY have to satisfy Israel, not V. Vsa.
If the Palestinians want to end the 'occupation', THEY have to satisfy Israel, not V. Vsa.
8
Palestinians Seen Gaining Momentum for Statehood ? Symbolic steps?
Au contraire, mon frère.
After you dig tunnels, shoot rockets and target airports, and get set-back another 20 years, your ideas and efforts grow more and more incoherent and your unachievable dreams get more and more grandiose.
Israel will now give Mr. Abbas his tax revenue, turn down his electricity from time to time and give him the opportunity to spend his money in the dark. This will give the Palestinian people a modest glimpse of their own future once they get a state of their own, not the whole nine-yards-of-horror they may eventually be getting, of course, just the coming attractions.
It's their money, so from now on they should collect it themselves. It's not Israel's fault that Mr. Abbas doesn't trust his own people enough to let them collect it. As matters stand now, Mr. Abbas's cronies are already stealing most of these Shekels anyway. Yes, that's right. Shekels. You didn't think Mr. Abbas was crazy enough to ever let his people print their own currency, did you?
Au contraire, mon frère.
After you dig tunnels, shoot rockets and target airports, and get set-back another 20 years, your ideas and efforts grow more and more incoherent and your unachievable dreams get more and more grandiose.
Israel will now give Mr. Abbas his tax revenue, turn down his electricity from time to time and give him the opportunity to spend his money in the dark. This will give the Palestinian people a modest glimpse of their own future once they get a state of their own, not the whole nine-yards-of-horror they may eventually be getting, of course, just the coming attractions.
It's their money, so from now on they should collect it themselves. It's not Israel's fault that Mr. Abbas doesn't trust his own people enough to let them collect it. As matters stand now, Mr. Abbas's cronies are already stealing most of these Shekels anyway. Yes, that's right. Shekels. You didn't think Mr. Abbas was crazy enough to ever let his people print their own currency, did you?
12
We ought to remind ourselves, time and again, about the only three realistic options to deal with the Arab Israeli dispute:
1) Leave the situation as is and manage it in the best possible way
2) Apply the fundamental elements of international law related to the resolving of the Arab Israeli conflict, i.e. San Remo conference decisions, 1920; League of Nations decisions, 1922; and, the UN charter that adopted the League of Nations decisions and etched them into its charter
3) Negotiate the details of an accommodation of peaceful coexistence between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab world, local and regional alike, and the liberal-democratic sovereign nation-state of the Jewish people, the modern State of Israel, based on UN Security Council Resolution, 242, 1967, and the vision of peace as articulated by the late Mr. Yitzhaq Rabin who articulated his views in his last speech at the Knesset on 5 Oct. 1995
To date, the State of Israel has been willing and able to apply itself to all three options. Indeed, we, Jews, within and without the State of Israel, have been eager to resolve the conflict regardless of the approach. Sadly, also to date, the Arabs have rejected all three options and all peace offers, proposals, gestures and opportunities presented to them by both the international community and the State of Israel since 1920.
One wonders, why have they been so anti-peace....??
1) Leave the situation as is and manage it in the best possible way
2) Apply the fundamental elements of international law related to the resolving of the Arab Israeli conflict, i.e. San Remo conference decisions, 1920; League of Nations decisions, 1922; and, the UN charter that adopted the League of Nations decisions and etched them into its charter
3) Negotiate the details of an accommodation of peaceful coexistence between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab world, local and regional alike, and the liberal-democratic sovereign nation-state of the Jewish people, the modern State of Israel, based on UN Security Council Resolution, 242, 1967, and the vision of peace as articulated by the late Mr. Yitzhaq Rabin who articulated his views in his last speech at the Knesset on 5 Oct. 1995
To date, the State of Israel has been willing and able to apply itself to all three options. Indeed, we, Jews, within and without the State of Israel, have been eager to resolve the conflict regardless of the approach. Sadly, also to date, the Arabs have rejected all three options and all peace offers, proposals, gestures and opportunities presented to them by both the international community and the State of Israel since 1920.
One wonders, why have they been so anti-peace....??
10
P.S. Follows is an illustration of the pattern of rejections of peace by the Arabs. The Arabs have rejected every single peace offer, proposal, gesture and opportunity presented to them since 1920 by both the international community and the State of Israel.
1920, San Remo conference decisions rejected
1922, League of Nations decisions, rejected
1937, Peel Commission proposal, rejected
1947, UN General Assembly proposal, rejected
1948, Israel's stretched out hand for peace, rejected
1967, Israel's stretched out hand for peace, rejected
1978, Begin/Saadat peace proposal, rejected
1995, Rabin's peace proposal, rejected
2000, Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected
2005, Sharon's peace gesture, rejected
2008, Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected
2009 to 2014, Netanjahu's offer of peace talks, rejected
2014, Kerry peace proposal, rejected
There is one common denominator to ALL of the above rejections: the explicit or implicit demand of the Arabs to accept the right to be, to exist of a sovereign Jewish state on a portion of the Jewish homeland. This, the Arabs couldn't accept. To this day the Charter of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), the "moderate" organization headed by Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, continues, since 1964, to call for Israel's demise and the "cleansing" of the Jewish homeland of its Jews, through all means possible..., and in stages if need be.
1920, San Remo conference decisions rejected
1922, League of Nations decisions, rejected
1937, Peel Commission proposal, rejected
1947, UN General Assembly proposal, rejected
1948, Israel's stretched out hand for peace, rejected
1967, Israel's stretched out hand for peace, rejected
1978, Begin/Saadat peace proposal, rejected
1995, Rabin's peace proposal, rejected
2000, Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected
2005, Sharon's peace gesture, rejected
2008, Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected
2009 to 2014, Netanjahu's offer of peace talks, rejected
2014, Kerry peace proposal, rejected
There is one common denominator to ALL of the above rejections: the explicit or implicit demand of the Arabs to accept the right to be, to exist of a sovereign Jewish state on a portion of the Jewish homeland. This, the Arabs couldn't accept. To this day the Charter of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), the "moderate" organization headed by Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, continues, since 1964, to call for Israel's demise and the "cleansing" of the Jewish homeland of its Jews, through all means possible..., and in stages if need be.
8
NL Katz
You can call up the old and since discredited charters of the PLO and Hamas, but what about the CURRENT charters of the Likud and other extremist parties in Israel regarding the State of Palestine.
You can call up the old and since discredited charters of the PLO and Hamas, but what about the CURRENT charters of the Likud and other extremist parties in Israel regarding the State of Palestine.
1
The Palestinians can't free themselves from the Israeli occupation militarily. Decades of negotiations have been fruitless, Israel grabbing more land at every occasion. So they try diplomacy, peaceful diplomacy and Israel goes bezerk,
Will Israel try to paint all those countries recognizing Palestine as anti-Semitic? Silly as it may be, don't count against it.
Will Israel try to paint all those countries recognizing Palestine as anti-Semitic? Silly as it may be, don't count against it.
49
Netanyahoo's scared, and fear kills reason. The Palestinians have maneuvered him into playing the bully so they can be the martyr. Brilliant.
5
This is a triumph of human dignity in the face of adversity. Land thefts by Israeli settlers, import restrictions on basic commodities, humiliating roadblocks, Israeli codification of second-class-citizenship for them, lopsided civilian deaths at the hands of the Israeli military, repeated confiscation of their own money by the Israelis - none of these harsh, punitive measures have defeated the Palestinians. Most of the world stands with them, yet Israel and the United States place themselves on the wrong side of history.
55
The NYTimes article reads:
1) "Israel has promised painful retaliation. . . . Israeli officials said harsher measures would follow their freezing the transfer of Palestinian tax revenue."
2) "Washington is expected to cut $400 million in aid to the Palestinian Authority if the International Criminal Court bid is not reversed."
Here's an idea for a grand solution: The United States government should DEMAND that Israel honor UN Security Council Resolution 242, as agreed to by the government of Israel in 1968.
The preamble to U N Security Council Resolution 242 refers to the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security."
UN Resolution 242 specifically requires:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the [Six-Day War] conflict.
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.
Instead of threatening the Palestinians, the U. S. government (President, Secretary of State, and Congress) should threaten the Israeli's with loss of all U. S. taxpayer aid and any dimplomatic support of Israel's foot-dragging and provocative actions in negotiations for a two-state solution.
1) "Israel has promised painful retaliation. . . . Israeli officials said harsher measures would follow their freezing the transfer of Palestinian tax revenue."
2) "Washington is expected to cut $400 million in aid to the Palestinian Authority if the International Criminal Court bid is not reversed."
Here's an idea for a grand solution: The United States government should DEMAND that Israel honor UN Security Council Resolution 242, as agreed to by the government of Israel in 1968.
The preamble to U N Security Council Resolution 242 refers to the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security."
UN Resolution 242 specifically requires:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the [Six-Day War] conflict.
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.
Instead of threatening the Palestinians, the U. S. government (President, Secretary of State, and Congress) should threaten the Israeli's with loss of all U. S. taxpayer aid and any dimplomatic support of Israel's foot-dragging and provocative actions in negotiations for a two-state solution.
60
David: Considering that Israel has already returned the vast majority of the lands it conquered in the Six Day War, and the resolution itself anticipated negotiating over the creation of defensible borders, it would appear that Israel is fully in compliance with Resolution 242. Perhaps you would care to explain the nature of Arafat or Abbas' counter-offers to Israel's offers going back to 2000? That there have been none should help you identify where the problem lies and from where any solution must come. Sorry, but that is the fate of the losing side that plotted aggression. And if you think the Palestinian Arabs should not be held responsible for Jordan's I'll-advised attack on Israel in 1967, why is that Israel's problem? Perhaps the Palestinians could also ask Jirdan why it never created a State of Palestine on the lands it seized in 1949? After all, they now comprise the entirety of what they claim. Then again, the Palestinian would have to ask where the PLO ever got the idea that, according to their 1964 Charter, none of the Jirdanian held lands were Palestinian? Confusing isn't it, but it tells you more about the reality of Palestinian "nationalism" than anything else.
4
In reply to Charlie in NY:
Charlie wrote: "the resolution itself anticipated negotiating over the creation of defensible borders"
Where in UN Security Council Resolution 242 are those words or words to that effect?
UN Resolution 242 specifically requires:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the [Six-Day War] conflict.
These words are specific and unequivocal.
Charlie wrote: "the resolution itself anticipated negotiating over the creation of defensible borders"
Where in UN Security Council Resolution 242 are those words or words to that effect?
UN Resolution 242 specifically requires:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the [Six-Day War] conflict.
These words are specific and unequivocal.
5
“It’s quite clear to me that we are ushered into a new era of political and legal conflict, and beyond a certain point it could be very hard to contain it,” said Michael Herzog, a former Israeli general and fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. “They take certain measures, and Israel responds — this could certainly escalate politically, legally, economically and maybe, ultimately, security-wise. It’s a dangerous game.”
It's their right to get their borders, that were taken illegally to begin with. If the United States really is the bastion of freedom it claims, then they should support the recognition of this country before Israel illegally covers it with settlements. It is Israel that plays the dangerous and deadly game with our American tax dollars, and one day when the U.S. stands alone with them, this will all come home to roost. We are indeed a country of hypocrits. Either we are or we aren't on the side of right. At this moment we are solely on the wrong side, the very wrong side, and Palestinians are dying every day because of it.
It's their right to get their borders, that were taken illegally to begin with. If the United States really is the bastion of freedom it claims, then they should support the recognition of this country before Israel illegally covers it with settlements. It is Israel that plays the dangerous and deadly game with our American tax dollars, and one day when the U.S. stands alone with them, this will all come home to roost. We are indeed a country of hypocrits. Either we are or we aren't on the side of right. At this moment we are solely on the wrong side, the very wrong side, and Palestinians are dying every day because of it.
47
Why would the Palestinians possibly want UN membership as a state when they have the Netanyahu government and the US State Dept. opposed? Have not both repeatedly shown their good will? No, best wait for the Israelis to incorporate the West Bank into Israel, and send the Palestinians to Jordan. At that point, Netanyahu and the Americans might well in principle support a Palestinian bid for statehood, preferably in Siberia but at least far from Greater Israel.
17
The time is soon arriving that Israel and the U.S. can no longer restrain the formation of an independent Palestinian state. Regrettably, our baseless support of Israel again places us on the wrong side of history. And of course that's why the Palestinians enjoy such strong international support for their cause for independence. We should remember that Israel was formed only a mere 66 years ago after a terror campaign by minority Jewish militants against the British Mandate for Palestine. Rather than embrace all residents of Palestine, Israel chose to create a religious state that today continues to discriminate against its non-Jewish citizenry and oppresses its Palestinian neighbors. Owing to the corrupting strength of the Israeli lobby in Washington, we have become the handmaidens of the Israeli oppressors and their illegal seizure of Palestinian lands including Jerusalem. Our financial support, no...bribery, of a corrupt Egyptian regime to ensure their obedience to Israel is transparent to all except our own press including the NYT.
We must change this dreadful policy now.
We must change this dreadful policy now.
126
Bill, you say that Israel discriminates. Really? How do human rights in Israel compare to the rights of citizens of neighboring countries such as Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan? Or Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Qatar, Iran? Let's wake up and see the reality of who the good guys are here, sir.
5
In no event should the U.S. recognize this terrorist "State."
11
Are you seriously advocating that the US withdraw recognition of Israel?
1
So the US would inflict sanctions on Palestinians for seeking justice against their oppressors, while giving said oppressor their 3 billions yearly aid.
What kind of sick, warped logic is that?
What kind of sick, warped logic is that?
160
One of the few voices of brilliance on this post!
2
My first thoughts about this article was to circle the wagons, however, this is exactly what Israel needed. We only get stronger & more determined to survive, when our existence is threatened.
As Jews we are used to be ganged up on, it's been going on for thousands of years, & we are still a vibrant people.Whatever, the world decides for us , when the smoke clears there will be Jews. Our plight is to be a lantern onto the world to illustrate mans inhumanity to man, & the will of the the Just to overcome injustice, It is G-Ds plan.
As Jews we are used to be ganged up on, it's been going on for thousands of years, & we are still a vibrant people.Whatever, the world decides for us , when the smoke clears there will be Jews. Our plight is to be a lantern onto the world to illustrate mans inhumanity to man, & the will of the the Just to overcome injustice, It is G-Ds plan.
6
Hmmm, maybe it is time to realize that you have done a great job in Israel of illustrating man's inhumanity to man. The slaughter of 7500 Palestinians since the GW Bush years by the Israeli state has illustrated this to the world. It is why 135 countries of the 180 or so at the UN, have already recognized the Palestinian state within the borders laid out and agreed to by the UN, the USA, and the Israeli state.
15
Terrorism, bombs and bullets have not given the Palestinians what they seek.
They are now trying diplomacy.
The rest of the world asks, why does this new tactic so anger and frighten Israel and the USA?
They are now trying diplomacy.
The rest of the world asks, why does this new tactic so anger and frighten Israel and the USA?
45
Israel would give the Palestinians a state in the blink of an eye, if the Palestinians would give up the goal of destroying Israel. So it is worth remembering that what the Palestinians are asking for is not just a state, but a state whose primary intention, whose reason for being, is to make war.
19
The Palestinian people have suffered for too many long, painful years;it is way past time for the U.S. to put serious pressure on Netanyahu and quit blocking Palestine from having its own independent, peaceful state next to Israel. Both states and people would benefit enormously from a normalized situation.
Being occupied all those year has been devastating for Palestinian people but it also has gnawed at the soul of 18 year old Israeli soldiers sent to control them. Life in a prison, however large is destructive for the one in chains as well as for the one yanking those chains. Both innocent populations should be spared that terrible fate.
Once more we find ourselves on the wrong side of history but we do have the means, if not the guts, to finally correct this mistake; let us not wait until it is too late!
Being occupied all those year has been devastating for Palestinian people but it also has gnawed at the soul of 18 year old Israeli soldiers sent to control them. Life in a prison, however large is destructive for the one in chains as well as for the one yanking those chains. Both innocent populations should be spared that terrible fate.
Once more we find ourselves on the wrong side of history but we do have the means, if not the guts, to finally correct this mistake; let us not wait until it is too late!
45
Every day 4.4 million Palestinian men, women and children live in fear and subhuman conditions. They know at any moment the might of the Israeli Army can sweep into their land, kill and wound thousands of them and destroy thousands of homes -- all this with impunity.
These Palestinians have never launched a rocket or a mortar at Israel, but they suffer each time a handful of extremists choose to do do. While such attacks are acts of aggression and frighten Israeli citizens, they are generally ineffective; only rarely is someone killed.
However last July in response to barrage of rockets and mortars launched by a group in Palestine, the heavily-armed Israeli Army unleashed a war on the Gazan people that killed some 2,200 Palestinians (including 513 children), injured approximately 11,000 and destroyed 17,000 homes. During the same conflict, 66 Israeli soldiers were killed, as were five Israeli civilians, (one child).
Ordinary Palestinians were helpless, caught in the middle, and they were hurt and died and lost their homes as they had in three previous attacks by Israel in recent years.
This is called collective punishment and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements (e.g. destroying entire towns where such attacks occur ).
The Palestinians have every right to ask the international community for help.
These Palestinians have never launched a rocket or a mortar at Israel, but they suffer each time a handful of extremists choose to do do. While such attacks are acts of aggression and frighten Israeli citizens, they are generally ineffective; only rarely is someone killed.
However last July in response to barrage of rockets and mortars launched by a group in Palestine, the heavily-armed Israeli Army unleashed a war on the Gazan people that killed some 2,200 Palestinians (including 513 children), injured approximately 11,000 and destroyed 17,000 homes. During the same conflict, 66 Israeli soldiers were killed, as were five Israeli civilians, (one child).
Ordinary Palestinians were helpless, caught in the middle, and they were hurt and died and lost their homes as they had in three previous attacks by Israel in recent years.
This is called collective punishment and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements (e.g. destroying entire towns where such attacks occur ).
The Palestinians have every right to ask the international community for help.
110
The international community is who put them in this situation in the first place.
3
The best help the international community can give is to send in troops to out Hamas' control of Gaza. Their presence is the main obstacle and Israel's best excuse for not bringing statehood negotiations to a conclusion.
5
If the Palestinians are so fearful and miserable why don't they move to Egypt, right across the border, oh wait Egypt also has a blockade.
4
It is clear to any intelligent person that the negotiations keep failing due to Israel's ongoing settlements activities and their denial of Palestinian's rights. Israel's goal is the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the take over of Palestinian land. Palestinians are not obligated to accept an unjust offer. They have accepted the state of Israel on 78% of historic Palestine and are only asking for 22% of the land for their state. Israel's dedication to the destruction of Palestinian nationhood is what causing this conflict to go on endlessly.
96
There is no historic Palestine, unless you look back thousands of years,
3
January 27, 2015 will mark the 70th anniversary of the end of the Holocaust when the Russian Army liberated Auschwitz. Yet Europe is rapidly backsliding into the ugly anti-Semitic swamp that created Auschwitz to create this Palestinian Utopia they hope will replace that vestige of their colonial past. So what if Israel gets dumped under the bus? Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. Europe has not learned that fundamental lesson.
11
Why are Europe's sins being paid for by the Palestinians?
10
Europe is not backtracking. It is in the same place it has been for 2,000 years...and ugly at that.
4
Sharon: Unfortunately, the Red Army's liberation of Auschwitz, as critical as that was, did not end the Shoah. Death marches from the east of Jewish inmates into Germany continued after the liberation of camps by the Red Army; and deaths accelerated at camps like Belsen and Buchenwald until liberation at the very end of the war. Many such camps were crammed with deportees from the death camps in the east.
So with a Palestinian free state, what would change. The next Hamas rockets that land in Israel... will those be considered terrorist attacks that warrant targeted Israeli response, like taking out the rocket launch site or knocking down the houses of active terrorists? Or will it be seen as an act of war - one free nation attacking another? Will aid money be diverted by the Palestinian government to rebuild tunnels beneath the Israeli border - and what will Israel's response by when those tunnels are discovered again?
When a people become an independent state, their actions are judged against those of other independent states. Will the Palestinians govern like Sweden or France, or will they govern like Syria or North Korea?
Statehood won't solve the Palestinian's problems. But it will increase the level of responsibility the government must demonstrate on the world stage. If they think no compromises are in order, they need to think again.
When a people become an independent state, their actions are judged against those of other independent states. Will the Palestinians govern like Sweden or France, or will they govern like Syria or North Korea?
Statehood won't solve the Palestinian's problems. But it will increase the level of responsibility the government must demonstrate on the world stage. If they think no compromises are in order, they need to think again.
20
I was surprised to learn that the US is not a member of the International Criminal Court.
We are supposed to be an open just society and membership would set an example for other countries. If the Palestinians joined, maybe the US can be shamed into joining also...instead of being a rogue state.
Why has the US NOT embraced the ICC?
Anyone know...what are we afraid of..?
We are supposed to be an open just society and membership would set an example for other countries. If the Palestinians joined, maybe the US can be shamed into joining also...instead of being a rogue state.
Why has the US NOT embraced the ICC?
Anyone know...what are we afraid of..?
97
I believe in all seriousness that we don't belong in order to protect war criminals of our own. Unfortunately our democracy has its share of powerful individuals during and after the cold war ended whose questionable & possibly criminal behavior would prove embarrassing at the least if exposed to impartial justice. One example of course is Henry Kissinger whose active involvement in numerous illegal acts under national & international law would make him a perfect case for prosecution. There is his involvement in Chile, also the illegal spread of the Vietnam war into Cambodia to name two of many. Then there is the many violations traceable to high level Bush administration officials like Chaney during Iraq & Afghanistan. There are 2 examples of why we practice this double standard of justice for others but not for us.
5
"Anyone know...what are we afraid of..?"
Only criminals are afraid of courts!
Only criminals are afraid of courts!
2
To start, read the Senate's report on US torture of prisoners during the Iraq War. Then read up on Guantanamo. We prefer to commit our crimes against humanity without risking being held accountable for them.
8
The tax money intercepted by Israel mostly paid the wages of the PA. It did not pay for electricity nor all security cooperation.
The $400 million sent by the US mostly paid Israel for the electricity sent to the PA, and paid for much of the security cooperation demanded by Israel.
Now the US is urged to cut off the money, and the Israeli electric company just warned that it will shut off the electricity if not paid. So the Israelis are asking the US Congress to shut off the lights in the West Bank, and to end the PA security cooperation. No doubt Congress will do exactly what it is asked.
That retaliation if carried out as announced would almost certainly bring an explosion. The explosion would then cause further Israeli action. We could now be looking at the start of the final ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, an event toward which the Israeli right wing has been working for years. It is their real solution -- Palestinians just leave.
The US will be complicit in that. If so, that will end all US credibility with anyone else, and so all ability to shelter Israel from consequences.
This is a much rougher road than Abbas likely planned when he signed up internationally, but he'll get there this was in the South Africa/Rhodesia way.
Maybe everyone will back down. They don't look to be now. If they don't, this is the start of major events, instead of a third initifada, or perhaps incorporating it as part of the fuze.
The $400 million sent by the US mostly paid Israel for the electricity sent to the PA, and paid for much of the security cooperation demanded by Israel.
Now the US is urged to cut off the money, and the Israeli electric company just warned that it will shut off the electricity if not paid. So the Israelis are asking the US Congress to shut off the lights in the West Bank, and to end the PA security cooperation. No doubt Congress will do exactly what it is asked.
That retaliation if carried out as announced would almost certainly bring an explosion. The explosion would then cause further Israeli action. We could now be looking at the start of the final ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, an event toward which the Israeli right wing has been working for years. It is their real solution -- Palestinians just leave.
The US will be complicit in that. If so, that will end all US credibility with anyone else, and so all ability to shelter Israel from consequences.
This is a much rougher road than Abbas likely planned when he signed up internationally, but he'll get there this was in the South Africa/Rhodesia way.
Maybe everyone will back down. They don't look to be now. If they don't, this is the start of major events, instead of a third initifada, or perhaps incorporating it as part of the fuze.
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The irony of the Israeli actions to further oppress the Palestinian people will be to strengthen Hamas & further radicalization. Ever since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by a radical Israeli the Jewish version of religious extremism has driven governments further towards an apartheid state. Under Sharon & Netanyahu there has never been any intention towards peace. From the expansion of settlements into Palestinian areas under both individuals to create unreverseable facts on the ground to the disproportional military response both in Lebanon under Sharon & now Gaza under Netanyahu the Israeli conservatives have no intention of ever willingly ending Palestinian oppression.
10
No electricity means the Pals will leave? If only that was that simple.
The Palestinians have a policy by the name of 'tzumud'. Translating into Something like linking themselves to the land. So they are not going to leave.
Unfortunately, there is no solution to this conflict.
The Palestinians have a policy by the name of 'tzumud'. Translating into Something like linking themselves to the land. So they are not going to leave.
Unfortunately, there is no solution to this conflict.
"No electricity means the Pals will leave?"
I did not write that.
I wrote it would cause an explosion, and then the Israeli response would amount to driving them out by force.
I did not write that.
I wrote it would cause an explosion, and then the Israeli response would amount to driving them out by force.
2
In her analysis, Rudoren correctly identifies the Palestinian strategy for seeking admission into various international entities, including the ICC: to avoid having to compromise on any point with Israel. For those who follow these things, Abbas has long bragged (albeit only in Arabic) of never having made any concessions to Israel. It follows, then, that those who support these moves by the PA, including the Times if its recent editorials are any indication, agree that the Palestinians should have all their demands met without further ado and with no need to resolve any issue. How this is supposed to jump start negotiations or provide the Palestinians with some sort of parity is never explained and is far from obvious. This is a recipe for a disaster for which, inevitably, Israel will be blamed because no one grants the Palestinians any ability to take responsibility for its actions, as the furious negative reaction by many commentators to Dennis Ross' op-Ed piece which suggested that the Palestinians be held accountable as a precondition for serious negotiations.
For its part, the West shows that political expediency trumps binding legal agreements, whether it be the Oslo Accords which forbids such unilateral moves, or, going back further, the continuing existence of rights under international law allowing for Jewish settlement throughout the old Mandate of Palestine territory.
Lost in all this is a curious fact: without Israel, there would be no Palestinian nationalism.
For its part, the West shows that political expediency trumps binding legal agreements, whether it be the Oslo Accords which forbids such unilateral moves, or, going back further, the continuing existence of rights under international law allowing for Jewish settlement throughout the old Mandate of Palestine territory.
Lost in all this is a curious fact: without Israel, there would be no Palestinian nationalism.
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Lost in all this is the fact that without the creation of the state of Israel there wouldn't have been 68 years of regional conflict in the ME and all kinds of collateral damage. I'm not opposed to the state of Israel but by these kind of sweeping statements you invite these kinds of retorts.
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Are you under the impression that Israel has not consistently acted unilaterally in dealing with Palestine?
6
so ISIS is also because of Israel?
5
If the Palestinian government, PLO or PA, joins the ICC, both Israel and Palestine would be held accountable. Is it such a bad thing to have participation, transparency and accountability?
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The palestinians have never been held accountable for anything. What makes you think that would change?
21
Bingo...the problem with your post nydoc is it makes too much sense...probably why it will never happen..
The US, Israeli and Palestine should all be recognized as legal states and able to join anything they want.
Some of their leaders like the admitted war criminal Bush 2, Neh. of Israel and a host of Palestinians should face war crime trials too.
The US, Israeli and Palestine should all be recognized as legal states and able to join anything they want.
Some of their leaders like the admitted war criminal Bush 2, Neh. of Israel and a host of Palestinians should face war crime trials too.
8
Not at all, provided that there is full transparency and accountability on both sides!
3
Reality check no matter how much people fight it the fact is we are one world now like it or not .Concept of state an country will become thing of past . Foe good of our children world needs to remember what we enjoy an have in this world belongs to next generation an we should leave this world better place an insure their world shares same or better life.Futile now to waste trillions resources to feed violence an destruction who serves nothing in future but to leave history with mistakes unpon mistakes. Better prove this is two world wars proved nothing
6
So if they get statehood and then attack Israel, is this not an act of war of one country against another, thus justifying whatever counter-measures the Israelis deem necessary, and no condemnation by other countries for any actions they take in self-defense is legitimate, unlike the current situation? I hardly see the UN or any other world body rising to Israel's defense, moral or physical, whatever the official designation of the Palestinians might be. The history of the last 50 years of the misery Palestinians shows it to be at the hands of their other neighbors, whose acts of aggression towards Israel have led to the current horrific situation.
32
Eric, what horrific situation! Nuclear Isreal is alive and well and has never been stronger. It may be horrific for the Palestinians but not for the present Israeli government.
12
If the Palestinians get statehood and attack Israel, how would differ from Israel getting statehood and then attacking the Palestinians?
11
If people on both sides are living in fear of attacks on unarmed civilians, how can that not be horrific for all concerned?
Israel was created to provide a home for the Jewish people safe from oppression. They are becoming what they sought to escape. The Palastinians are not much better, lobbing missiles at civilians. Peaceful solutions seem unattainable. Violent solutions seem unattainable. What a terribly sad situation for all.
34
Israel was not created, it was dropped on top of another country. The people that lived there were send to refugee camps where many still suffer. Their homes, farms and ancestral olive orchards were set on fire. More than four hundred Arab villages were destroyed "depopulated" was the term, all by military assault. It was called ethnic cleansing. It was a campaign of terror and whenever required murder of men women and children. Things have not changed only cloaked in well crafted messaging.
23
I often wonder what would have happened if, instead of insisting on a return to their "holy land" (which, inconveniently, was already inhabited), Jews decided to settle in Nevada (much as the Mormons did in Utah).
10
What you miss is that Israel's actions are purely defensive & retaliatory to aggression in the extreme.
3
More than 60 years ago an American president was the first to recognize the state of Israel in spite of it being the result of colonialist occupation. Why not a US president again recognizing the rights of an oppressed people to become free of their oppressors?
346
Colonialist occupation? Have you read fact-based history including the enormous amount of land purchased from Arabs by Jews? Not taken, but purchased and purchased for an astronomical amount of money. By your argument using the term "colonialist occupation," the Palestianians themselves could be defined as colonial occupiers.
15
There is no going back to the way things were. If palestinians want peace all they have to do is act like real citizens instead of the terrorists they are. It's that simple.
21
"Why not a US president again recognizing the rights of an oppressed people to become free of their oppressors?"
Simply because Palestinians are mostly Muslims. Could Israel ever dare to occupy the lands of a Christian population?
Simply because Palestinians are mostly Muslims. Could Israel ever dare to occupy the lands of a Christian population?
4
There is a phony symmetry here that is disturbing, as if the Palestinians are 'one side', seeking their statehood and Israel is 'the other side' opposed to Palestinian statehood. Israel is basically fighting for its survival, its protection against vicious cruel attacks on innocent civilians. It is these guarantees that the Palestinians have been persistently avoiding, and which prolong the conflict. When Israel has its most basic and reasonable security, the Palestinians will get their state and the whole conflict will go away.
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Switch "Palestinian" and "Israeli" - your entire paragraph works both ways.
Such is the problem with Mideast politics - so much finger pointing, and no one takes responsibility for their current actions. Why can't people just STOP and start anew? Regardless of what has happened in the past, we can start a new day any time we want to - we don't have to wait until midnight.
Such is the problem with Mideast politics - so much finger pointing, and no one takes responsibility for their current actions. Why can't people just STOP and start anew? Regardless of what has happened in the past, we can start a new day any time we want to - we don't have to wait until midnight.
57
"Israel is basically fighting for its survival, its protection against vicious cruel attacks on innocent civilians. It is these guarantees that the Palestinians have been persistently AVOIDING, and which prolong the conflict"
Do you have any legal proof that backs up your claim above? It makes no sense that Palestine will "attack" Israel after being recognized as a state with its own borders. I would like to see your reference. Thanks.
Our founding fathers also fought against the oppressors with any method at hand. It's natural to fight back when someone is occupying your land and house. I'm sure you would never let your neighbor barge into your home and start setting rules for you and dictating?
Do you have any legal proof that backs up your claim above? It makes no sense that Palestine will "attack" Israel after being recognized as a state with its own borders. I would like to see your reference. Thanks.
Our founding fathers also fought against the oppressors with any method at hand. It's natural to fight back when someone is occupying your land and house. I'm sure you would never let your neighbor barge into your home and start setting rules for you and dictating?
15
It's not that simple. Israel may think it's only fighting for its survival, but it is also systematically taking over the land that belongs to the Palestinians.
Israel is lucky that the Palestinians still want their own state. A much more serious outcome would be if they threw in the towel and agreed to have the West Bank and Gaza become part of Israel and demand full citizenship for all of the inhabitants.
Israel is lucky that the Palestinians still want their own state. A much more serious outcome would be if they threw in the towel and agreed to have the West Bank and Gaza become part of Israel and demand full citizenship for all of the inhabitants.
11
The Palestinians have withstood persecution and will eventually be rewarded. In this new modern world of equality I think it only fitting that they be recognized.
242
You've got it backward. It's the palestinians that have been making this a problem, by always seeking to kill Israelis. I hope there is no reward for such terrorism.
9
The Palestinians, once they can assure Israel safe and secure borders against Palestinian terrorism, should be given statehood. It takes two to tango.
3
The Palestinians have no other choice. Negotiations - really? 50 years with no results.
327
Go and read a history book. It's very difficult to see results when the Palestinians have refused EVERY offer in their favor given them in the last 50 years.
48
So when did the Palestinians accept Israel's statehood or right to exist?
9
I don't know what history books you read, but you should read The Palestine Papers in Haaretz. Haaretz documents how the Palestinians have tried to make concessions to Israel, only to be rebuffed with claims that those concessions aren't enough, Israel wants more?
We cannot rationally discuss this issue when your side keeps rewriting history to suit its own ends.
We cannot rationally discuss this issue when your side keeps rewriting history to suit its own ends.
16
This is long overdue!
183
When they were part of Egypt and Jordan they could have had a state anytime.
8
Just what we need another "state" publicly and passionately committed to the violent destruction of another.
41
We already have one "state" (Israel) publicly and passionately committed to the violent destruction of another (Palestine). Why not go for symmetry?
15
I assume you are referring to Israel and its passionate commitment to ensuring that a Palestinian state never happens.
They have been very adept at this for how many years now? 60?
They have been very adept at this for how many years now? 60?
17
So you suggest that we not support a state publicly and passionately committed to the violent destruction of another? Apparently you support Israel. Maybe, just maybe, you are experiencing a cognitive dissonance.
5
Doesn't look good or even possible a two state solution to come to the fore. Both sides need to concede grounds. The Israeli government is so conservative to even see they are one of the biggest problems and the Palestinians need recognize the reality. If both get rid of their right wings then I believe we could see a light at the end of tunnel.
Why the world thinks conservative governments are the best government when they continue to fail is beyond my comprehension. Failure begets failure.
Why the world thinks conservative governments are the best government when they continue to fail is beyond my comprehension. Failure begets failure.
25
Yes, liberal governments in Israel have gotten such stellar results. Death, rockets and destruction. I can see how successful they've been.
2
There hasn't been a liberal government since 1980. Then Ronald Raygun refused to talk to anyone in the middle east. He was too busy selling arms to both Iran and Iraq.
....and yet again the palestinianshave not missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Abba Eban
Abba Eban
36
Israeli leaders have a special talent for crafting clever and deceitful expressions to describe palestinians.
19
@Safiya: Such as? Let's hear what those deceitful expressions are.
5
I can't believe Yakov Amidror says, "If he (Abbas) wants something. I don't get it." He's the one who doesn't get it. The Palestinanians want dignity. The Israelis want them to deny them that. As a Jewish sage said, "Everything else is commentary."
181
The palestinians will get their 'dignity' when they treat Israelis the same.
6
You can't give somebody dignity. It's innate, either you have it or you don't. Palestinian leadership does not.
5
You misquote Hillel. Hillel was challenged to explain the Torah while standing on one foot. "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." —Talmud, Shabbat 31a
The Jewish Golden Rule is distinctly different with its DO NOT DO, in comparison to Christian and Islamic DO ONTO. A religious and philosophical paradox.
The Jewish Golden Rule is distinctly different with its DO NOT DO, in comparison to Christian and Islamic DO ONTO. A religious and philosophical paradox.
4
In the last serious negotiations between the PLO and Israel, Arafat told Clinton that if he accepted the excellent compromise for peace offered by Barak, he, Arafat, would be assassinated.
The Palestinians really want Israel to be destroyed, and they are taking any and all steps, however small and indirect, to accomplish this goal.
Had they really accepted Israel, they would already have a state. Given their deep desire to destroy Israel, this step will only bring more conflict.
But look at the entire Mid East region. They fit in quite well!
The Palestinians really want Israel to be destroyed, and they are taking any and all steps, however small and indirect, to accomplish this goal.
Had they really accepted Israel, they would already have a state. Given their deep desire to destroy Israel, this step will only bring more conflict.
But look at the entire Mid East region. They fit in quite well!
86
And of course just a few years before that an Israeli PM was actually assassinated for accepting the Oslo Accords - the only really serious negotiations, ever.
"They fit in quite well."
Actions speak louder than words.
"They fit in quite well."
Actions speak louder than words.
59
"In the last serious negotiations between the PLO and Israel, Arafat told Clinton that if he accepted the excellent compromise for peace offered by Barak, he, Arafat, would be assassinated."
If I remember correctly it was Rabin who was assassinated.
"The Palestinians really want Israel to be destroyed, and they are taking any and all steps, however small and indirect, to accomplish this goal. "
You mean the Israelis do not want the Palestinians to be destroyed? You are aware that Sheldon, the gambling magnate, gave Newt Gingrich tens of millions then the next day they were declared an "invented" people. Never mind they were there before the state of Israel was formed. You know, the state that ethnically cleansed them.
"Had they really accepted Israel, they would already have a state. Given their deep desire to destroy Israel, this step will only bring more conflict."
The Israel conditions offered in the past would only amount to a vassal Ghetto state, never anything resembling a real state. This lies at the heart of the problem.
"But look at the entire Mid East region. They fit in quite well!"
Yes the Muslim states demand are intolerant (in general). But also remember that BiBi and his elected government are not much different. You are aware that the Palestinians live in an almost Warsaw style ghetto, correct?
If I remember correctly it was Rabin who was assassinated.
"The Palestinians really want Israel to be destroyed, and they are taking any and all steps, however small and indirect, to accomplish this goal. "
You mean the Israelis do not want the Palestinians to be destroyed? You are aware that Sheldon, the gambling magnate, gave Newt Gingrich tens of millions then the next day they were declared an "invented" people. Never mind they were there before the state of Israel was formed. You know, the state that ethnically cleansed them.
"Had they really accepted Israel, they would already have a state. Given their deep desire to destroy Israel, this step will only bring more conflict."
The Israel conditions offered in the past would only amount to a vassal Ghetto state, never anything resembling a real state. This lies at the heart of the problem.
"But look at the entire Mid East region. They fit in quite well!"
Yes the Muslim states demand are intolerant (in general). But also remember that BiBi and his elected government are not much different. You are aware that the Palestinians live in an almost Warsaw style ghetto, correct?
224
You miss the point. Yes, Rabin was assassinated.
But then Barak, the Israeli leader, offered Arafat the deal that would have created the Palestinian state. Had Arafat accepted this, there would be a Palestine now.
He refused it because his people did not want to accept this compromise, and neither did he. Barak's compromise was controversial in Israel, but real and would have been put into practice with a real peace partner.
Get it now?
But then Barak, the Israeli leader, offered Arafat the deal that would have created the Palestinian state. Had Arafat accepted this, there would be a Palestine now.
He refused it because his people did not want to accept this compromise, and neither did he. Barak's compromise was controversial in Israel, but real and would have been put into practice with a real peace partner.
Get it now?
42