Reading this I was shocked that the percentage admitting to sexist jokes or stories or sexist remarks was so low. I wondered if the reporting was so low because some men don't realize that it's sexist? But the I reflected on my own experience where I feel like I deal with sexist comments at work constantly and realized that 20% probably is about right. But the way in which it's tolerated makes it feel like 100% because it's an ingrained part of the corporate culture everywhere I've worked for the last 20 years.
Lots of single-digit percentages. From what is presented in the press one would expect mostly high-80's percentages for all categories.
Ha! I've always estimated that about 20% of the men in my "white-collar" environment engage in some level of harassment. The results of the survey seem to bear this out.
So if I had been number 616, I would have been the only one to not have harassed anybody?!
Hard to believe. Also - I would guess that none of the men I work with (hi-tech, all hetero) harassed anybody. I certainly neither heard nor saw anything resembling harassment. Also - the company has a conspicuously posted, no harassment policy and anybody (male, female, hetero, gay, cis, trans or other) who experienced anything would have an easy time making it known and getting it rectified.
No victims !!
Look at the chart. I would say about 3/4 of those surveyed have done none of these things.
I co-founded and ultimately owned a small business in Manhattan; from the ground up, for 28 years. My father co-signed a $10K loan to helpme.
We ultimately grew to our peak in 2005-2009. Unfortunately,the recession destroyed us.
In total, I have 35-40 years experience working in close quarters with my employees (and co-workers, before). I cannot remember a time anyone ever did or said anything (or even hinted at) that could truly be construed as sexual harassment. We had a family like, friendly atmosphere.
I would have fired (or worse) someone in a heartbeat if I ever heard of such behavior. The best part was, we had so many people of so many races, sexual orientation, male, female, whatever: all were treated equally.
A big part of this is the diversity of all those things in NYC, which I miss very much.
2
To trust self reported data has to be a fools errand. Especially when the participant is being asked about negative behavior. Being a long time Times subscriber and have scrutinised many a survey I have to say most are close to worthless, especially the medical. This is born out when a few years apart we read conflicting information.
Two more observations; being a builder in the SF Bay Area in the eighties not once did I encounter any of this. Anyone bullying anybody on the job would have been asked to leave on the spot. I'v heard from someone who worked in banking that Wall Street is the main source of distasteful sex and race humor, and I think this is probably true. It seems that in one respect I've led a charmed life in that I've very rarely had to tolerate boorish stupid people. On the other hand I never have, not even for a couple of minutes. Including a Christmas dinner, not going to break bread with a moron.
The only way society is going to improve is when the culture changes. When we see/hear inappropriate behavior, call it out or at least clearly indicate disapproval and displeasure.
Thinking about all this right now there was a very immature ignorant person who sometimes associated with our group in Lake Tahoe in the seventies. We were all in our twenties then. We tolerated him but let him know we thought he was an idiot. I can hear it now, "Oh Randy, just shut up, would you?"
Don't forget that from such weak data we call extrapolate the non-reproters. So in this case, let's say two-thirds of offenders will not report. There we go! It's rampant!
Men have far too long behaved terribly in the workplace; the examples in this poll illustrate only a portion of the offending practices. While men comprise the larger portion of inappropriate actors, sexism seems to ignore similar behaviors of women.
In my first day at a Fortune 500 company, one of my new colleagues remarked repeatedly how attractive she foundme, and caressed my face - within the hour after the introduction. I didn't complain; declaring my boyfriend was excited about my new job brought this to a halt (I'm male). During my tenure I heard colleagues tell each other bawdy stories of their personal lives and speculate about others. Women engage in teasing, inappropriate questions and suggestions which men are supposed to laugh off or reciprocate; were more women in positions of power, there might be greater harassment (though likely at lower rates than by men).
To address the problem of sexual harassment, we need to treat offenders equally. Otherwise, we have another iteration of a culture which admonishes male high school teachers in inappropriate relationships with female students, but gives a wink, nod and smile when a female teacher acts similarly.
2
Boys will be boys. We need to stop allowing boys -- and males of any age -- to get away with ... anything that offends, emotionally or physically injures or takes advantage of another, whether that 'other' is another male, an elder or younger person, a female of any age, or an animal.
3
Does that equally apply to girls and women?
Just wondering cause by your logic females *are* permitted "to get away with ... anything that offends, emotionally or physically injures or takes advantage of another, whether that 'other' is another male, an elder or younger person, a female of any age, or an animal."
Is society pulling the press one way or is the press pulling society one way?
Suddenly, sexual harassment became important, maybe fashionable, to talk about. I take it. But why is it mentioned in the press as only from men to women but never the other way around? Any thoughts?
3
Sexual harassment has been around for a long time. When I experienced it in the early 90s when Anita HIll accused Clarence Thomas of sexual harassment.
A USA Today article from 12/18/2017 states that it DOES come from women, but it is rare. Mostly, it is a power move, the article states, and most of the people in power are men, according to the article.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2017/12/18/women-rarely-accused-sexu...
Hollywood simply called sexual harassment "The casting couch." [If you want this role, sleep with me.] That was a decades-long thing. It is now 'unfashionable' to name this Hollywood phenomenon as "the casting couch," but that's exactly what it was.
1
Justitia, you have just stepped on the Third Rail of sexual harassment. I encourage you and all responsible women to go hard on this issue. Women and me who did not work hard in school, aren't fond of hard work, cannot take even the mildest criticism and are afraid to compete against truly competent people in the workplace - are really big on sexual victimization. And EEOC guidelines and a workplace culture in which women are NEVER wrong, make is so easy for them to be victims. My longtime GF was approached on the job at a large non-profit by a guy who wouldn't take no for an answer. She reluctantly went to HR and filed a complaint. HR talked to him but apparently it didn't all sink in, which is very unusual. I asked her to tell him, nicely, one last time that she didn't want any looks, unnecessary conversations, visits to her work area without a purpose, and that would be the last chat they would have on the topic. After that, all communication would be between him and me, after work, in the company parking lot. Her appearance and personality do attract a lot of male attention but stronger measures were called for. She truly did not want the man to lose his job bc he was truly good at it, easy to get along with and had a wife and kids. He simply needed a bit more help to make the right decision, which he finally got. Not all men are evil pigs deserving immediate dismissal after years of hard work. In fact, she and I find far more fault with women's behavior in the workplace.
When I read the results this "poll" I could only shake my head a laugh. In all my decades of working in offices, I never observed any harasser (and there were many, many of them) who was willing to own up to bad behavior. "Just kidding" was always supposed to exonerate them, and women were considered prissy soreheads if they complained.
4
I question the utility of any survey that seeks to address (or redress) the behavior of men alone. I know of many workplaces where women might well respond to this survey in a similar fashion as the men here polled and it seems improper (and downright unfair) to ignore them in a final analysis of workplace manners. I worked for a small company that was majority female with only a handful of male colleagues. The men were respectful and professional to everyone and the majority of female employees were not- the infighting and nastiness about their fellow employees- was remarkable. While that experience does not parallel the sexual inquiry of the survey, I worry that articles like this one unfairly paint men as tyrants when in my experience, women can be equally, if not more, to blame for a poisonous workplace culture.
4
Based simply on how the article presents the questions, I cannot, for the life of me, see how the responses are not much much closer to 100%. Take for example the first one -- 'have you ever told sexual stories or jokes that some might find offensive?' If the criteria is whether 'some' might find it offensive, and that simply requires more than one person. There is no doubt that I could find two people who would object to ANY sexual story or joke. It follows then that the entire question relies on whether anyone has told a sexual story or joke. I think that is somewhat more than 16%. As a side note, it doesn't even require them to have made the joke in front of more than one person -- in other words it might have been an entirely private conversation.
7
This "survey" is interesting, but it certainly does not portray the dynamics of the male-female workplace relationship that can in no way be described as sexual harassment.
Some years ago, as a male, I attended a celebration for one of my female colleague's well-deserved accomplishments. When I presented her with a citation for her good works, in an instant I thought of giving her a hug as an honored colleague, and then thought otherwise, and simply shook her hand.
The fallout was a sad commentary on workplace behavior then - most of my female colleagues became outraged that I "only offered a handshake." Some went so far as to publicly speculate that I was gay. Some male colleagues had the gall to publicly chastise me as acting "coldly" toward my female colleague.
My colleague who was feted came to me later to express her shock and embarrassment that my "handshake" should have been so terribly misconstrued.
Sadly, the ritual of expressing gratitude between sexes has become even more perilous in the workplace. HR units either shrink into anonymity, or issue lawyer-approved memos that protect the organization from any sexual harassment charge, but absolve the organization for any sense of humanity.
5
Where are the results for female harassers? This is not a frivolous question -- we are very biased in what we choose to conceal about women's behavior both in academia and the popular press. For example, perpetration of intimate partner violence is about equally by men and women according to very numerous studies, but these studies seem invisible to public policy makers and the press.
6
I too am very curious how the results of the same survey conducted on women would compare. I suspect that they would either be similar or, more likely, women would score greater on harassing behavior. There is a double standard that exists when it is the behaviors themselves that are measured. I think this needs to be examined and addressed when talking about the culture of sexual harassment in both the workplace and society at large.
4
I agree completely with Laura, particularly when it comes to jokes and comments. Years ago, it was quite common to trade jokes (and hugs, too). I find today's climate somewhat sad, but understandable. It seems to me that being critical of male behavior may be justified because of the power inequality in the workplace (and elsewhere). Were it not for that, some of the "condemned" behavior is prudish or puritanical. We have to draw some reasonable line of "acceptability".
1
Women can be mean; Long ago, I had a mean female boss, then I became her boss at a different company, both jobs were in tech publishing. I was peachy nice; she sent me flowers frequently, and took my kids and I to museums -- as if she needed to do that to ensure my nicety. She didn't need to, but we appreciated it.
I think women are more likely to be mean/manipulative rather than sexual.
I did have a grad student colleague long ago, who worked in a corporation, besides working on a master's degree. He did tell me [in the 70s] that his female boss would come onto him.
2
Wow, I think these numbers/percentages are optimistically low. Are you sure they are all telling the truth?
5
As discussed in the article, we can be reasonably certain that they are not all telling the truth.
2
The survey questions don't measure the same thing. A majority of them ask men how they perceive/guess women's reaction to what they said. It is like measuring how perceptive the men are, in which case a Yes is closer to empathy than a No. It is surprising a higher percentage of blue collar men answer Yes to those questions than white collar men (nay, not surprising at all). The other questions at the bottom seem to measure what the authors claim to measure. The quality of research is disappointing, to say the least.
1
An enlightening article. I would add this behavior is so rampant, it happens not only within the workplace, but places we least expect. At our school was a father who preyed on other mothers, using the cover of his family and our community to harass women.
2
I'd say those percentages are encouraging, i.e., very low for the worst kinds of behavior, at least as long as you're willing to believe that the men who participated told the truth.
These current times still do need a LOT of work. In the distant past, however, it was worse. My father, a distinguished professor in a university medical school, said he had to let his secretary go when she was six months pregnant, because ''no man wants to look at that.'' He told me this when I was about 7 years old, much to young to comprehend what he said. His words struck me 'as odd,' at the time, and I resolved to remember them so I could understand them later. We have progressed beyond the 1950s, but ''these times they are a changin'' ' but not fast enough. Not by a long shot.
7
The way the harassment questions are worded is key to why the percentages are so low for the most egregious of the harassing behaviors. All of the men recently in the news for sexual predatory/harrassing behaviors stated that they had no idea the women felt the way they did. Asking if someone did something that embarrassed, offended, or otherwise made the subject of the offense feel uncomfortable, or engaged in aggressive sexual behavior in spite of attempts to discourage such behavior, (much less resisting physically, which wasn't mentioned) assumes that the perpetrators of these behaviors are conscious of the subject of their harrassments feelings, which is an invalid assumption. These persons see nothing wrong with what they're doing, and/or are unable to consider the notion that the person's they are in effect attempting to dominate or subjugate have feelings that are worthy of respecting.
4
None of the 3 questions that comprise the "gender harassment" group imply a victim and are thus misnamed. The majority of men who answered affirmatively to any question admitted only to one or more of these behaviors, which presumably include sharing sexually-oriented jokes or stories or photos or videos only with others known to enjoy such material.
Bundling "gender harassment" into the other categories leads to entirely different conclusions than would have been drawn if that category had been excluded. Duh. Rigiorously peer-reviewed scientific journal would not have published this study report without major modification.
That raises an important question for the Times. Should the editors routinely subject reports of original research to independent peer-review prior to publication?
I think so. Bad science is bad science regardless of the outlet.
10
Thanks for injecting critical thinking into the conversation!
4
Where is the survey of women who alternately repeatedly proposition men at work, then withhold cooperation, refuse to do their jobs, mishandle important communications, spend far too much time socializing, organize after work drinking binges, and coordinate getting men fired, all because a man didn't react to the signals women were interested and turned down or away a relationship? Even men who are happily married and have every reason not to get involved? Hey, until you've had to politely remind a woman not your wife she's holding your arm publicly....or had a woman attack you at an office party shoving her tongue down your throat... or had repeated phone calls to your partner from women at work.... like it never, ever, happens, sure, of course it doesn't. Please, gimme a break, like women don't do the same exact things for the same exact reasons and even nastier. Wrath of women scorned is no different.
10
So... are you saying that because there are women who also act inappropriately (something the article mentions, by the way), it is OK and this should not be addressed? Judging by how mad you are about when something like this happened to you, I would think you should be the first one to support research on the matter and an end to sexual harassment at work. If it was wrong when women did it to you, it is wrong also when men do it to others. It IS a fact that men do it more often, and have gotten away with it more often too. Nobody is saying that when women do it, it is less wrong.
9
Thanks for speaking up, veteran. I'm not irresistibly gorgeous, but we share some experience, though you sound like you've seen more. Responding to recent news reports, men I know seem to have quite a few similar stories of female harassers. IMO, failure to study female perpetrators would suggest a cultural bias.
5
They don't even know they're doing it. I was asked in a job interview if I planned to have children someday. Would a man be asked that? That's not fondling, but it is sexual harrassment.
10
@aginfla: And these days, it is illegal for an interviewer to ask!
5
Here's my job interview, after being marginalized and finally pushed out of my chosen profession by women, me with 35 years experience: I was after a $10.50 an hour job, to delay losing my home a bit longer. The department head in a school district, a young woman, took the resume I handed her, sat down and did not say a word. She glared at me, for possibly a half minute, until I got up and left the school. She then evidently bragged about how she handled a male trying to get a job in her department and an older woman left me a gushy voicemail late that afternoon about how much they loved me but as luck would have it, a woman with ECE background was a better fit. I was only given one single interview with this school district - and BTW, I'd worked with kids several summers, taught school overseas and took a competency test with 80 questions. They waited weeks for anyone to get the required 56 answers (70 %) or more right, to fill the position. I had taken the test - it was an insult to any educated person's intelligence - got one wrong, allegedly, and was treated like garbage. It wasn't fondling; it actually felt a lot worse.
1
'Gender harassment', seriously? As if there is not this hyuuuuge jump, in every human sense, from the three blue to the rest.
Or do the three blue mean doing the behavior offensively, in front of or to others known or reasonably recognized to be offended by it? Or does it apply when done privately among similarly minded? Did I miss something by way of criteria?
Disregard of distinctions and proportionality is not going to serve this initiative in any good way --- making the worst, and the frank bad, representative of the continuum. A crude approach and analysis, so far as I can tell.
5
There is a line in the sand which can't be crossed where sex is requested or offered for gain, but a little banter or joke shouldn't be put in same category as touching, requests for sex in exchange for advancement, or harassment based upon a request for sex. It's a difficult line to draw, but justice always requires difficult decision. When your 5 year old says or does something inappropriate you don't lock him in the closet for a week or put him out for adoption. Some of the comments in response to this op-ed were indeed shocking for their view that any mention of sex was a capital offense punishable by banishment for life.
I have worked with many females that have openly stated that they used their sex appeal to their advantage in lots of situations. They were merely using sex appeal as a tool in their tool box to manipulate some male into giving them their way, and did not cross the line of mere flirting or flirtatious behavior. Should they have been thrown under the bus? If so we'd need to double the number of buses. Obviously, allegations against Weinstein, Spacey, and Rose are indeed disturbing and had to be dealt with strongly and banishing seemed appropriate, but Franken, please.
4
Okay, so clearly none of these women have informed you that referring to humans as "females" is offensive. Don't do that.
5
As this issue has burst onto the national stage I have been astonished at how widespread it is and how so many well educated and affluent people are involved. I have always suspected that the problem was worse at the bottom end of the wage scale where there is little job security, but it seems to be everywhere.
When I was about to get my first job as a teenager, I was given three simple rules about working by my father, and I remembered them in light of what we see has been going on all over America.
1- Treat others with respect and demand the same for yourself.
2- When you are paid to do a job, do your best. Taking pay for work not done is theft.
3- Keep your work life and romantic life compartmentalized- otherwise avoid romance at and around work.
Had Matt Lauer, Charlie Rose and all the others followed those very simple rules they would likely still have their jobs and reputations intact and countless women would be far better off.
7
How can these results be anywhere near reliable? I'm surprised that anybody even anonymously admitted to coercion or inappropriate touching. I have to assume the real numbers for the most egregious offenses are far higher just on that basis alone.
4
You really need to separate sexist and offensive remarks from each other and those made towards a person of the gender you are being sexist or offensive to from those made to people of your same gender if you want a study like this to tell the real story. We have a lot of jokesters in my place of work who say offensive things or sometimes sexist things for the shock value (such is modern humor), but we don't make those kind of jokes when people who do not care for such things are around. Despite our acceptance of crudeness, we have never in the 7 years I've been working here had an issue with harassment. Do you really think only 1 in 5 people have told a joke that someone would have found offensive (since you didn't specify) and even if that was 95% that it really has anything to do with the type of predatory actions the rest of your survey asks about?
4
When you make jokes like that, but "just among the boys", you might think it's harmless. After all, everybody knows you don't REALLY think that way, right?
The trouble is that "the boys" might include one rapist. And rapists generally believe that everybody DOES think that way. When you make these "crude" jokes, you're reinforcing their idea that what they do and what they think and how they act is right and normal. And it's not.
1
Well if women were truly equal in this country maybe sexual harassment wouldn't be such a problem - but until women have equal pay, can make healthcare decisions w/o the interference of men, advertisers stop w/the unreal beauty criteria, we don't have to pay extra for feminine products/pink products (pink washing), get birth control for free, paid by the government when we take time out of the workforce to raise children/care for the elderly etc. etc., we will continue to be subject to harassment, do men harass their equals?
4
That is the core issue: inequality. It's not crude jokes or remarks per se.
2
Telling bawdy jokes at work is not harassment. In my experience, when the crude gets flowing and everybody's giggling, the gals are right there with the fellas. What a dull world we'd live in otherwise! Cornering and leering at someone with a dirty joke would of course be a different story. Categorizing anything and everything that someone might find offensive as harassment is a distraction from the very real problem at hand—it makes the legitimate demand for respect sound prudish and trivial, which it isn't.
13
Harassment does cause much trauma to those who experience it. The prevalence of it in our work places and culture show a deep and abiding disrespect of women as people.
5
Loved the graphics! Wouldn’t have minded more bars or a pie, to show the sample and responses broken out relatively. But the crowd of faces, where most reflected no activities - enough to believe that 75 plus percent of men are surprised/horrified - yet the responders who reported doing something were so frequent that the vast proportion of women who experience or know of this - really well illustrated. And thank you in the article for putting the onus on toleration of behavior by colleagues, superiors, and organizational culture. These issues can be stopped, or changed, before they become problems that really cause suffering. But only if colleagues, supervisors, etc step in early and clearly. Thanks for the reporting and the context nyt.
5
I am very wary of such a study.
First, who volunteered to participate and how honest or self-aware were the answers. That leaves out a lot.
Second, the problematically vagueness of the "less offensive" categories leaves a lot to be desired regarding this whole issue. What exactly is inappropriate in terms of a discussion? For some, it is the mere mention of anything sexual, including someone you find physically attractive, your sexual orientation and interests, what happened on a date, the loss of one's virginity, even discussions about sexual harassment or normal bodily functions. Religion, culture, context, and sexual oppression all factor into what a person deems offensive or not.
Until, we as an American society are willing to talk openly and frankly about sex and our bodies, I don't see any real "progress" on this issue. In fact, the sense of paranoia and hysteria around the topic, and the conflation of offense with violence, suggests that things are only going to get muddier and more problematic, not less.
6
Feminists are ushering in a new era of sexual repression and we are all going to pay in more ways than you think. Why is it that Liberals always find an issue to harp on in an election year that invariably turns out to be a surefire way to alienate the majority of Americans, first from them and then the Democratic Party that they force to embrace it.
So now besides the chill over relations between the sexes and the banning of flirting in the office or anywhere else, feminists are going to drive people especially men to the Republican Party again and hurt the Democrats chances of taking back the Congress.
When we lose another election, they will blame money and gerrymandering but the real reason will be that no one likes politically correct prigs.
13
By all rights, the only Democrats that should be allowed to run must be women. There’s no such thing as being too correct, remember.
3
Hear, hear!
1
After centuries of priggish and conservative attitudes, most developed societies have worked hard to cease hiding sex and sexuality in the closet of shame.
Now open mention of, or discussion around, these topics at work which "some might consider offensive" deems one a sexual harasser! That's preposterous and illogical. Human beings have sex, human beings like sex, get over yourself (or develop more resilience).
God, thousands of children will die today (and tomorrow, and the next day) from malaria purely because they are born in a poor part of the world. Get some perspective and get over yourselves.
14
A lot of men make comments, inappropriately, about women at work because, well, they can't help themselves. They might be educated in complex subjects, but they have not educated themselves more broadly about life and social interaction.
Boys go through a long period of deep longing for girls and then women. Sometime between 14 and 16, puberty hits, often like a bomb. The hormones are flowing like there's no tomorrow. The body is saying, now, now, now, society says: wait, wait, wait.
During this time, boys get their educations in attitudes toward girls and women from other boys, often with crude, presumptive words. A lot of them never grow much beyond this phase and don't stop to consider how they should act as adults. There's an old country song that says, "A woman can own any man," meaning that he is a slave to his needs and desires. Does this cause resentment? Push back? Anger? In some, yes.
Some crude comments can be brewed up in the brain as a kind of verbal assault: I know I can't have you (no matter how attractive you are), but at least I can touch you with my words. This could be an expression of frustration and powerlessness too.
Acting better should not be that difficult. Just push all that stuff out of the mind, once and for all. If a man can't have it all, don't try to grab a little by words or unwanted touching. This, too: women are not responsible for their sexuality, its how they were born. They weren't put here to taunt men so don't taunt back.
5
"In separate, smaller surveys, women were only somewhat less likely than men to admit to harassing behavior, even though men, in polls and in formal complaints, are far less likely to say they’ve been sexually harassed."
Surely this is the most interesting, and surprisingly, paragraph in this article. It suggests what I've longed believed: that this kind of behavior is more a matter of context and opportunity than gender. In other words, put women in the same positions of power as men are ordinarily in, and they'll act like men.
9
Or, to put it slightly differently, if the power disparity didn't exist, the behavior might not be a problem.
2
This ought to be reassuring since no more than a few percent of men admit to behavior that can be fairly regarded as sexual harassment. Making remarks or teling jokes or stories that someone might deem offensive emphatically should not be so regarded for two reasons: (1) What is offensive is totally subjective (and thus very different from uninvited touching, refusal to take no for an answer, etc.); and (2) it is 2017, not 1955 and in case the Times has not noticed the culture is saturated with sex, portrayals about sex, jokes about sex. Watch any comedy show, see any movie, read any copy of Cosmo, indeed read the New York Times snd you'll have a tough time avoiding it.
7
You have conflated two things, “sexual harassment” and “objectionable behavior” which is equivocation.
(Like obstruction and collusion, the former is a crime and the latter is not.)
Asking for a date, after being told "no," is not harassment.
Asking for a date, after being told "no" AND being told "please do not ask me again" is. Are women wont to be ambiguous, does it work in their favor implicitly?
This shows the bias in these types of questions.
The article is at odds with the on-going narrative: Men are in power and do not see what they do as harassment or objectionable, but women (victims) are the ones who can say for certain.
If men can correctly identify harassing / objectionable behavior, this surveys why not #BelieveTheMen?
In the piece, 1/3 of men can identify and 1/2 of women can identify an unacceptable behavior. Isn’t it then the case that 66% of the time they agree on the unacceptable behavior? With the margin of error, the disputed area of conduct may be 25%, so why use gender as the deciding factor in believability?
If this study isn’t grounds for #BelieveTheMen, it is at least, don’t be so biased as to #BelieveTheWomen.
8
Where I worked anything sexy or beyond was send around by women. Men did not dare.
8
A British Parliamentarian once remarked "How do I know my advances are unwanted until I make them?"
Of course once one determines that they are unwanted, knock it off.
4
I'm suprised that they percentage of men who said they engaged in at least one of the behaviors described isn't much higher, not because more men engage in such conduct, but in the subjective way some of the questions were phrased.
What does "some might" mean ? Does it mean "anyone" might? If so, we are all guilty of something because there is virtually nothing which someone, somewhere, won't find offensive. Given a question phrased that way, I would have to answer "yes", even for behavior which I, and those who experienced my conduct, would find completely non offensive. Using such phraseology in questions renders the answers to those questions useless and meaningless, because even if only the most hypersentitive among us might feel offended, we must confess "yes".
Before continuing, I am not addressing behavior which is expressly unwanted, such as attepts requests for dates or attempts to establish romantic relations. Those behaviors should not be tolerated.
But using a highly subjective standard for other behaviors can render us paralyzed. A 'hug" under any circumstances might be offensive to someone. But a hug in support of someone who has just experienced a personal loss is far different than a suggestive inappropriate embrace.
If our guidlines become so vague and subjective as to include even the most generally accepted conduct, then the guidelines at best are useless and at worst. may stifle any interaction among co-workers.
That will ultimately hurt us all.
2
Its a big problem out there culturally and at least the Trump supporters were honest. Since there are just as many Dems out there that have been outed lately I believe the problem is quite extensive on both sides of the political spectrum
1
"In separate, smaller surveys, women were only somewhat less likely than men to admit to harassing behavior, even though men, in polls and in formal complaints, are far less likely to say they’ve been sexually harassed. It could be that men and women see the same behavior in different ways."
I think this is true. At work, I periodically hear women talk about sexual matters and make sexual jokes, I see partial breasts, I see women posting photos of partially-clad men in their cubicles. Men just go with the flow.
When the shoe is on the other foot, women are saying they find this offensive. Aside from the clear outliers (red in the survey) who need to be reigned in, I think we should stop confusing human sexuality with sexual harassment. Human sexuality is not going away.
6
Expand the survey to include questions about sexism, sexist bias and wage discrepancy between the genders... If a psychological rather than legal basis is the driver more than enough anecdotal evidence shows sexism outpaces sexual harassment in our work culture. Ofcourse where harassment is tolerated, sexism is a natural occurrence, but where sexual harassment is low, sexism still runs rife, unchecked and ruins careers. It is reflected in the data, in the wage gap, in the lower representation of women in upper management. This is not the result of unwanted sexual advances in the work place. This is a result of structural bias against women, enacted through individual gestures of discrimination, sexual harassment is only the most sensational of these acts. More female careers have been atrophied by subtle moments of diminishing a woman's abilities, and they add up, than by unwanted sexual advances.
2
What troubles me is what I consider the risky business of a simple compliment. When I see a female co-worker (I am male) who has dieted and physically looks great, or a woman who is wearing clothing that looks very nice on her, or a nice new hair style, cosmetic dentistry, etc., I withhold any compliment unless I know her very, very well. I am afraid that just saying, "You are looking great!" can be misconstrued. After I went on a diet and lost many pounds I very much appreciated that some co-workers (male and female) noticed it and congratulated me. I will compliment another guy but not a woman out of concern it would be considered harassment. Is saying, "Your hair looks nice." to a woman ok? I'd like to think so. But is saying, "Your breasts look nice." to a woman who has had cosmetic breast surgery also ok? Where do you draw the line? I just remain silent -- in a way I work with a woman as if her body is invisible. That in itself is demeaning.
5
Each face below represents one man who responded to the survey, and the behaviors he admitted to. Taken together, the faces give a sense of just how widespread this conduct is, and the forms it may take.
The colors show how each of the 615 men responded:
Once again the bias in reporting. There is no color code for the response to "I did not do anything objectionable / sexually harassing". These responses are left to fade away, because if they would have been given a color, like bright green (as opposed to the yellow or red for serious offenses) the message would be much clearer, 66% of men did not do these things.
Can we get a corrected graphic with green faces for the 66% of the data that is needed for an accurate picture?
As presented the COLORS do not accurately depict the true results.
5
I used to work in a male-dominated office. Within a few days of meeting me at work, a 20-something guy asked me whether I had a boyfriend, whether I liked performing specific sexual acts, and on and on. It was a relatively small office with no opportunity for reassignment.
But I guess this sexual harassment stuff is blown out of proportion, isn't it?
8
I appreciate the article, it’s an essential idea, but one of the data points threw me off. You mention that it’s committed by both blue and white collar workers, but then show a graph where the difference in the rates is 14%. Then, you mention the effect of a supervisor, where the difference is less than that (I forgot the specific number and can’t view it while typing this comment, sorry.), but highlight it as important. I understand that being a white collar worker does not exempt you from certain behaviors, but there is something there. Perhaps it’s a side effect of education, perhaps an effect of the biases feminism has shown to wealthy white women. It just seemed strange to me to point out one set of data as more relevant than another, while a graph shows that’s clearly not the case.
Perhaps if we got equal pay , men would start respecting us more and treating us with more regard. Hashtag for 2018, equalpay
15
Helsinki lady, my good friend Kaisa is from Finland, now a US citizen.
The problem with you Finns is that you are too perfect, ie except for your high suicide rate (to be fair to you, you record accurate rates unlike other countries), there is nothing wrong with you guys. Au contraire Pierre as I tell my French friends. Equal pay has to been earned. If you mandate it as an edict, you end up with the welfare state. We experienced it here in America in the 1950s and it crippled NYC to where it almost killed NYC in the 1970s.
Equal pay, without discrimination but earned. That is the way to go.
3
It's only one life, but in my experience I saw many men and an equal number of women using their sexual attractiveness, powers of seduction and skills at flirtation to enhance their opportunities to advance in the workplace. The corporate rat race in large american cities is a who you know and who you ... kind of world. It's ugly. Yet we're told that that's capitalism and their is no alternative to capitalism. The idea that people will be pitted mercilessly and irrationally against one another in a race to the bottom but never play the sex card is absurd. The rules are that you win if you get away with it. The whole system of life needs to be rethought, not just the fact that men sexually harass women. Bad behavior is rife among both genders and both have come to expect it all the time. The idea that gender problems can be ironed out without addressing other chronic issues of inequality is just absurd. The bad behavior is about power and the desire for power is rooted in deprivation. The corporate culture is sick. It's gender problems are just a symptom not the disease.
33
As expected, the majority are jokes/stories/sexist remarks.
9
How can a boss inform an employee that s/he will be promoted in exchange for sexual favors? I'm actually not joking. What percentage of workplace promotions are due to sex? I would guess that some are.
I work 65 hrs a week trading stocks. I start at 6:30AM. My dream is to buy a 911 GT3 MT for 175 grand.I guess I'd prefer to earn it, but my job is very stressful. Would I take an easier route, if it involved sex? I don't know. I work for myself. Have I ever been objectified? I've been invited off the streets of NYC to pose shirtless for a gay art photographer and paid a nice amount for it. Did I mind being objectified? Not at all. Was I harassed? No. But I was talked down to by a man (not the photographer, but a man working with him) whose level of education is well below my own. That bothered me (I was working on a PhD at the time). I disliked being disdained for being beefcake. But I was flattered by offer and pleased by the pay. If I thought I could be a successful male model would I? I guess so. Is being promoted at work based on looks and flirtation any different from being a model or something? Does it start to differ from that only once actual touching is involved?
5
Good luck getting rich, richguy. And enjoy your confusion.
In response to your question; "How can a boss inform an employee that s/he will be promoted in exchange for sexual favors? I'm actually not joking."
I had an experience (the only such experience) some 20 years ago when I was working for a company. I had been promoted quickly by Boss 1, who was an excellent boss, and no problems of any type existed with this boss. I had more experience in the market than some of the others I worked with, and was promoted quickly because of that.
Then Boss 1 left for another job.
Boss 2 arrived. I was separated from my husband at the time. Boss 2 said to me shortly after he arrived: ''I know you're separated. Why don't you come to my apartment some Saturday to discover how wonderful life can be when you're separated. It could be advantageous for you."
I was shocked to the core. I said nothing and did nothing but stare straight ahead.
A few months later, there was a layoff 00 because the market that created the need for magazine was shrinking. Yep, I was among the four who were laid off.
2
So many male commenters here just doggone confused about how they should be acting at work. What about the women who wear sexy clothes??? What about people who meet at work and fall in love??? What about a full blooded approach to life and language?????
Lets back it up here: the people who answered this survey knew what they were doing. They were not "confused" as to whether they were offending people, coercing people, etc. The men who answered in the affirmative to these questions were completely aware of how their behavior was being viewed and did it anyway.
Its not actually that hard to 1. Take no for an answer 2. Not use language in the workplace that you would hesitate to use in front of your mother 3. Not rape people 4. Not have inappropriate relationships with underlings who may be terrified of losing their jobs.
This is not brain surgery. And hint: if a young pretty woman in your workplace is dressed in a manner you find inappropriately sexual then you should ask her supervisor to tell her privately that she needs to tone it down. You should NOT assume that she is therefore "asking for it" and make comments about her cleavage/thighs. Ok?
31
The problem with your suggestion to ask the young woman to "tone it down" is that we have all been told for years now that women have the right to dress however they wish to, and that to express any problem with that is a form of blaming the victim.
Whether or not she “tones it down” is no excuse to make a move—AT WORK or in the WORK PLACE.
Karen, if my company is OK with a co-worker wearing what I find inappropriately sexual, what right do I have to tell her to “tone it down”?
And is it impossible a woman who initially says “no” to my advances might grow more accepting over time, and change her mind?
And is any consensual romance with an employee forbidden in your book, or just with “underlings” (classism duly noted) who only want to have sex with me to advance their career?
Seems you’re more dedicated to trapping women in victimhood than empowering them.
1
The title should be "615 self-identified, self-motivated men answered our questions that were actually posed to a much larger potential number of men." This is neither science nor good reporting. No-one knows by this piece if the problem is worse than it suggests or "better". All one really knows is what were (at least some of) the questions that were asked.
8
“Told sexual stories or jokes that some might consider offensive?”
Who over the age of 8 hasn’t done that???? And then you say oops, sorry, and move on.
Not every crude joke is harassment, not every misspoken word is said with intent to offend. Let’s spend our time going after true harassment, discrimination and assault.
18
Nuance Carol, nuance. Its about the environment created when the desire to be offensive is the norm.
2
"Though many women have come forward with accounts of sexual misconduct, it has been unclear how widespread or severe the problem is."
"Though many women have come forward to report misconduct, we thought the best way to know whether it's a severe or widespread problem is to ask a bunch of random men." Yeah, this doesn't perpetuate a centuries-old issue in the slightest.
5
KC, option C: “Though many women have come forward with accounts of sexual misconduct, we thought we’d not assume all men are lying misogynists and ask for their side of the story.”
1
As a gay man I am shocked as well. Never considered any of my female staff, colleagues, peers, friends and bosses as anything other than professional employees. It's so difficult for me to imagine that the very presence of a female body in an office setting can drive heterosexual men out of their rational minds. Really? The first thing on my mind when I sit in my office is: let's get going on today's To Do List. Perhaps a good mix of gay men and women is better model?
5
Humans will always flirt, though, even at work. I’ve worked with a lot of gay men who were quite flirty with other men in the office, and there were plenty of off-color jokes made. The difference there is the jokes and innuendos were made amongst their office social groups — their friends — and (at least as far as I could tell) no one took offense. I generally thought the jokes were funny and felt that the flirting was none of my business.
As I said in another comment, sexual harassment is about a power dynamic, not solely about attraction.
2
Nothing to do with the content of the article, though I still question the validity of a self reported survey - of either sex - on this issue. The "facial/color graphics accompanying the article are not only useless and nonsensical, they almost stopped me from reading the rest of it because they took up so much space in the beginning!
5
Very pretty graphics, but this tells nothing without asking women to complete the same survey.
You should hear the women in my work environment, of all ages. My oh my. And the more comfortable the men and women are with each other, the more crude the jokes get.
There is far too much hugging and kissing in the workplace, at least in Seattle, even though the majority is not sexual, it is still in someone's personal space.
11
I don’t like hugging everyone, either. Sometimes I avoid it by putting my hand out for a formal handshake.
1
Not sure what these results mean in the absence of a meaningful comparison group asked similar relevant questions.
Ideally, the control group would have been women... and both men and women selected for the study would have been recruited so as to eliminate bias in the results attributable to factors that are related to differences between men and women that are not associated with the factors the investigators have reported on.
While reporting prevalence of attitudes and behaviors is interesting, the study lacks scientific rigor, as it does not present a "base line" for an important control group, namely, women.
Because of this, the results seems to be no more than a "sensational" report that appeals to readers biases.
Surely Patel et al, don't believe that the prevalence of inappropriate behavior among women of some sort is zero, do they?
Daryl
Daryl's Honor System Roadside Vegetable Stand and Dairy Products
7
What this article suggests is that we need to more precisely define, and probably narrow, the definition of sexual harassment, especially if we want to put it "off limits" and a cause for employment (and even career) termination.
The overwhelming majority of the "I'm guilty" faces in the article's graphic were guilty only of sex jokes or sexist comments. Sex jokes are part of who we are as sexual beings. And I don't quite know exactly what comprises "sexist comments." In either case, neither is a capital offense.
The real "no, no's" involve "coming on to some one" too much to seek (or even coerce) a relationship, including sexual relations. And those cases entailed only 1 or 2% of the polling sample. So I think we need to keep this in perspective: NOT deny that certain behaviors which went unpunished before now should be punished, but also to be cautious in drawing the boundaries. Male locker room humor is not a crime, and trying to make it so will only provoke a backlash which could divert us from the more serious offenses which should be targeted.
4
In the middle of the #metoo flurry, a colleague of mine that several co-workers and I describe as kind of handsy posted his own tone-deaf social media statement on "what's wrong with some men."
"It could be that men and women see the same behavior in different ways." is a very important sentence in this story. You are asking about behaviors men would attribute as harassing in some of the questions, asking the men to assess whether another was made uncomfortable. That's a useful question. Their opinions on this may well not reflect the reality for the recipients, and that's a useful question, too.
2
Perhaps it is time to retire the sexist term "handsy", which for some reason is only applied to men, but almost never to women who engage in identical behavior.
1
I really appreciate the comments from women that are consistent with the notion that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and that seem grounded in ideas such as common decency, respecting the body and space of another, and objecting to condescending or insulting treatment.
Conversely, I’m suspicious of comments regarding this survey or any other gendered survey of bad behavior to the effect that when men do X it’s inherently aggressive or transgressive or controlling, but when women do X it’s to fit in or a defensive move or someone finally lashing out in frustration.
We all have our fears and frustrations. Everyone has a right to self-defense. Nobody likes condescension or being insulted. We need to look at the facts of any given situation without prejudgment.
So let’s create a world where Harvey Weinstein knows he has to channel his demons into making good movies because blighting careers as he did means losing the opportunity to make good movies; and making good movies won’t excuse blighting careers as he did.
4
Here's the problem with the survey:
"...that some might consider..."
I am so straight-laced that the Team I worked with at a major international computer company (most of whom were in their mid-20's) willingly and kindly modified their language to accommodate my moral sensibilities, without having to be asked.
And yet, given that, I still would have to answer many of the survey questions with a "yes" based on that "some might consider...." phrase -- it being so broad with possibility that no one could truthfully claim otherwise.
If I had not "continued to ask someone for dates...even though she said no" my wife and I would never had been married (40+ years now).
The "sexual harassment" or "sexual misbehavior" bar is being set far, far too low -- if these are the definitive questions.
5
I met my wife at work many years go. We were peers and in no position to influence each others career, so all good. I don't think a younger version of myself would have accepted the career risk in today's climate by dating a colleague though. The risk might be low if you're a decent person and act respectfully, but if a relationship sours with the wrong person, it doesn't take much to imagine the career angst that could result.
3
Neil, I met my husband at work. But that is not what this is about. You are confusing (or conflating) two entirely different situations. Dating is something done by two consenting adults who are mutually attracted. Harassment is unwanted attention, physical contact or various other aggressive, negative, targeted actions toward a person who is neither consenting nor complicit. There is no danger in the first scenario, unless you pick a vindictive partner and it doesn’t work out.
5
I'm not conflating/confusing anything - I get the difference. Your last sentence is an example of what I was thinking about, but I'm mainly making an observation about how the current climate would have affected my personal situation years ago. I had misgivings about dating someone at work, which I'm glad I overcame. Probably not if it happened today. I expect that my daughters will find significant others outside of work.
It may not be what this is about but if this issue gets too far out of hand, which is highly likely, then that may become what it is about. There are already issues on college campuses where some snowflakes find it "offensive" to be asked out on a date or to be complimented.
1
There is an old, valuable saying "garbage in, garbage out".
Anyone who sets out on conducting any sort of poll or study, but who has already made up his mind about the results....has contaminated that study. Real scientists are objective.
That this study asked questions about TRUMP (!!!) shows the intense bias of the pollsters. Trump has only been in office this past year; sexual harassment was around 50 years ago. One's opinion on Trump has no relevance to whether you harass or not. Harvey Weinstein was a hardcore, liberal Democrat who undoubtedly hated Donald Trump, but he was an epic abuser of women for many years.
One fascinating thing to me how much stock lefties still put in "polls", when it was polling and pollsters (and "analytics") that so distorted the 2016 election and created the lackluster Hillary campaign that LOST.
11
Trump has admitted openly to sexual harassment and assault. Just because he isn't yet "guilty" in the legal sense doesn't mean he's innocent. We have proof: his proud admission on multiple occasions of being a complete and total creep. Why shouldn't a poll that has to do with our culture ask about the man who is currently holding the most powerful office in our culture? Would their views of him not correspond to their views regarding sexual harassment generally?
5
I don't lean to the left, but it's interesting how Trump's apologists pop up in almost any context. Even in the context of workplace sexual harassment where Trump supporters shouldn't dare to go. Your hero has a decades long record of abusive and bullying behavior to females (and others). This is why it is absolutely relevant to insert questions about him in this poll.
Trump needs an army of apologists. Somehow, even after implicitly condoning white supremacy and nazism, his army is still in the field.
5
My comment is about the online presentation of the data, not about the article's content. This is a great example of how "data visualization" which looks cool and unique actually does very little to enhance the presentation of the data. I think in terms of percentages because it enables me to compare the magnitude of different things. The face visualization does nothing to help compare the prevalence of these types of behaviors. Yes, I can see that there are more blue faces than red ones, but the faces don't tell me precisely how much more prevalent the less serious behaviors are than the more serious ones. Moreover, I cannot take in the entire visualization without scrolling down on my computer screen. The percentages are provided after the faces, but they are printed on color swatches that are exactly the same size even though the numbers are not the same, again denying me the opportunity to visually compare. Also, it would be nice if you could provide the percentages of men who have engaged in 0, 1, 2 or 3 or more of these behaviors to give an idea of the prevalence of multiple-type offenders. Beware of being dazzled by new visualization tools. Sometimes old fashioned ones like bar charts work better :-)
9
Somebody read Edward Tufte's books and didn't understand them.
1
I've been in a lot of workplaces over the years. Most men are decent and treat women properly. Some have been disgusting. A few were worse than disgusting, moving into illegal behavior.
I don't understand all the confusion over what is sexual harassment and misbehavior. Bad behavior is clear and all but the most self-centered troglodytes know it. They may choose to act surprised or disavow but they know it's wrong - I mean, why say you didn't do something if you agree it's the right thing? Or a need to blame women for their wardrobe choices?
How about this test for those who can't figure out basic decency - how would you react if you heard or saw that behavior aimed at your daughter or sister or mother or wife? Because that women you're harassing or covering up for a harasser is someone's daughter, sister, mother, wife.
I would add one more thing. Having dealt with HR departments they have to step up. Most want to shut down any complaints to protect the company; instead they just fuel the anger. I have never heard one person who felt mistreated say the HR department went out of their way to solve the problem. In fact, they're the institutional enablers.
As often the case, it's rarely the crime, it's the cover-up that's the deeper problem. Those that deny allow perpetrators to continue.
14
What is with using the language "that some might consider offensive or sexist" in defining categories? Why not phrase it as: "that IS offensive or sexist"? Sexual stories or jokes in the workplace are inherently offensive & inappropriate. Sexist remarks are sexist remarks.
By using the language "might consider" in defining categories of sexual harassment, sexual misconduct & conduct contributing to an atmosphere of sexual harassment & inequality in the workplace, the NYT makes it appear that the standard for misconduct is subjective; that oversensitive women are somehow "considering" normal male discourse as sexist or offensive. This paints women as hypersensitive, easily offended, unreasonable harridans intent on removing all fun & laughter from the workplace.
Something does not become offensive or sexist just because someone considers it so. Something is offensive or sexist because it is offensive or sexist. Something is sexist if it supports the ideology of male supremacy, involves an appeal to prejudice or discrimination against women; or paints women as prostitutes or other objects existing only for their sexual utility to males; that makes light of rape & sexual violence, or that refers to women as poultry, bovines or using derogatory words like the b-word.
People can tell when a joke is told in wholesome good humor, or when it is a sexist put-down; or that using office printers to produce porn images to show to women in the office is sexist & offensive.
4
"...that some might consider offensive or sexist..." is used because the person who sets the bar is the one who is subjected. It acknowledges the immense diversity of people's tolerance in our society; the spectrum spans those who take offense at the slightest remarks or jokes having sexual connotations to those who take no offense at the most vulgar remarks or jokes possible. It's a good way to weed out inappropriate language from the work environment, and those who take exception to the rule are at liberty to leave for another place of employment.
1
earthling: pretty much everything about your post is incorrect.
The standards of offensiveness are indeed subjective. (unlike criminal laws)
Do you really not know this?
4
Eh, re "Sexual stories or jokes in the workplace are inherently offensive & inappropriate. Sexist remarks are sexist remarks."
Conflate and confuse much?
A "sexual story" is not inherently sexist. And a sexist statement is not necessarily a sexual story.
You go on to make the absurd claim that "Something does not become offensive or sexist just because someone considers it so." A tree may fall in the woods even if no human witnesses it, but the characterization of something as "offensive" or "sexist" exists exclusively in the realm of human perception.
1
May be someone should ask women how they conduct themselves at work. No?
15
Read the whole article. Women self-report similar behavior at nearly the same rates.
3
Hopefully, someday, we men, will become as saintly as women are!
15
Statistics speak for themselves; dare not to set your goals higher than one can attain.
Right! Especially those statistics that reveal what gender comes to the rescue, when other human beings are in distress!!!
1
I think there is a lot of good coming out of this movement, but there are faces of it that are just plain idiotic. This is one of them.
"Told sexual stories or jokes that some might consider offensive?"
"Made remarks that some might consider sexist or offensive?"
I don't think I know anyone, male or female, at any workplace that I've ever worked at, who has never done either of the above, once you add on the "some might consider" clause. Perhaps that's extreme. I can probably pick out a few individuals, either extremely religious or extremely shy, who might be exempt. But I don't think it would track with gender.
The "underlying current of thought", to paraphrase another commenter, seems to be that lighthearted or playful discussion of sexual matters is inherently dangerous. Please count me out of the utopia that people who hold that opinion are trying to create.
22
Mark, I understand what you're saying, but it's not about creating a utopia; it's about keeping companies out of court.
1
Unfortunately, like any quest for justice and a decent society you cannot just "count me out". If this kind of thing takes hold, you will be a victim. You can't sit it out. You're here.
I wonder if you included in this survey the author of this quote:
"A nice rack will only get you so far." Clearly a sexually offensive, demeaning, uncomfortable statement reeking of harassment. It was made in the post Anita Hill, post "Year of the Woman", post Clinton Impeachment culture, in 2003.
The statement came from the CEO of one of the largest companies in Silicon Valley. The person went on to run for senator and in 2016 ran for president.
ButI believe that since she was a woman, no one, absolutely no one called for her resignation. No one called her to drop out of the CA senate race for being a sexist bigot, or drop out of the presidential race for the same heinous infraction.
I never heard TV journalists, nor senator Gillibrand, or anyone else in the senate's career death panel to call for her to step aside during either campaign.
She set the tone at Hewlett Packard - perhaps for the valley at that time, for what was acceptable innuendo and related behavior. Were she a male, there would have been calls for his resignation. When she eventually was fired for running the company into the ground, she received a severance of $22M.
In light of the existence of deep, far reaching double standards, I find nothing in this small survey to get upset about at men.
16
At the end of the day, her "nice rack" statement was just a crude rendering of "your good looks and charm will only get you so far".
To respond to the graphics piece of things, I found it surprising that the artists chose to scratch out the faces. Not visually as illegible as it might have been, but still, an odd choice that seems to suggest a violence of its own.
2
"It could be that men and women see the same behavior in different ways."
Or it could be that men and women experience the same behavior in different ways.
Sexual harassment perpetrated by men reinforces the repression of women in the workplace. Women who feel that they don't belong are made to feel that they don't belong even more. Sexual harassment perpetrated by women is harmful, but doesn't tie into a broad network of repressive ideas, actions and structures.
2
Ah yes, the "systemic" angle. This is the post-modern ace in the hole: Power. Systemic. Structure. Destroy the individual if that individual can be represented in terms of a systemic this or structural that - if the individual can be categorized as having "power". Let free the individuals who can claim to be victims of the systemic power structure.
I would agree that every company large or small needs to set standards and not take an anything goes attitude. Unfortunately at the moment we seem to have as the leader of our nation a man prone to indecency, vulgarity, mysoginy and lying. He is not a good roll model.
6
It is unfortunate that in the #MeToo movement there seems to be little discussion of sexual harassment of women by other women. I am currently in a work environment where one of my immediate supervisors, who is a married female, talks incessantly about her affairs with board members and wealthy clients. I think that she believes “it’s just girl talk.” But it’s not. It’s inappropriate. I feel the same frustration that all of the women who have been harassed by men feel. I dread meetings with her because I know it will end up in a detailed conversation about her latest tryst and how she schedules fake appointments on her calendar to go meet with men, while I struggle to change the subject back to work matters. I feel angry that I am at work covering for her while she is out having affairs on company time. I feel especially frustrated watching her climb the ladder knowing how she is getting there. But who would I report it to? We are in a small office and to tell anyone would only seal my own fate. I have no one to tell #MeToo
19
Have you ever told her that you are not comfortable hearing about her personal life? It takes two to establish acceptable parameters of behavior.
I suspect that this is your real grievance: “I feel angry that I am at work covering for her while she is out having affairs on company time. I feel especially frustrated watching her climb the company ladder knowing how she got there.”
2
Good point. Two of the foulest mouthed employees I've ever worked with were women.
4
I have told her that. In those exact words. You are correct that my grievance includes that "I feel angry that I am at work covering for her while she is out having affairs on company time. I feel especially frustrated watching her climb the company ladder knowing how she got there.” But it also includes that I have to hear about the size and prowess of her latest catch even though I've told her that I don't want to hear it. Telling people that you don't want to hear it makes them stop. If that were true we wouldn't need this movement.
5
I look forward to your followup, “We Asked 615 African-Americans How They Conduct Themselves in Public”, with questions like:
1) In the past year, have you listened to loud “rap” music while waiting at a stoplight in your car?
2) In the past year, have your ever told jokes which Caucasians might consider offensive?
...
10) Have you ever robbed a 7-Eleven or other convenience store?
Bleh. By pinning the problem on “men” - not abusive men, not harrassers - NYTimes is taking the discussion of sexual harrassment backward, not forward.
14
I'm sorry you feel that way. This, to me, is not talking the discussion backward but aiming and highlighting just how pervasive potential sexual harassment can be in the work place. It explored how common place jokes and discussion occur and how normal "every day Joes" can unwittingly allow those who are abusers and harassers by normalizing some of the behaviors. Being more aware of our "normal" behaviors and how they influence those toxic behaviors can help all of us combat the abusers/harassers who cannot nor will not address their dangerous and damaging behaviors.
2
I am looking for the underlying current of thought here. It seems that sex is dirty and icky and any thing related to reproduction shouldn't be discussed. I am pretty sure that when women are together they talk about men and body parts etc. and men do the same. A few years back, there was the big push for women to be allowed into all male institutions. Even for female reporters to be in male locker rooms. I think most men are well behaved so I hate this push to return to a Victorian era or Puritanical mores. Why should we try to eradicate that part of our animal nature. Even high class dogs still smell each other's butts and genitals on 5th Ave. and no one tries to inhibit them. Someone suggested that men in the office should behave towards women as if they were there mothers or daughters. Really? What real women wants to be treated like someone's mother. If women are going to work with men they have to set their own boundaries. I wished I had time to be more coherent....just thoughts.
17
Well, if your mind is in the gutter you think everyone else is just like you. Perhaps some of these behaviors happen some of the time, but believe it or not, some of us are interested in other things most of the time.
As for smelling some stranger's butt, honestly, what are you thinking? Time to get a life.
--
However, you put me in mind of the fact that from the cradle, particularly in this time of all-pervasive media, women are taught that presenting themselves as objects of desire and "enhancing" their appearance is better than not doing so. It is so deeply ingrained in our culture that it is relatively rare to see a woman on the media who doesn't conform to "hair and makeup" and the "ideals" of infotainment. Four year olds are taught to dress like tarts. It's so common one is not supposed to mention it, but most of this comes from men in the first place.
We are a wholly owned subsidiary of marketing.
5
99% of the men I have worked with have been polite and respectful.
Sex talk has no place at work.
2
"What real woman would want to be treated like someone's mother."
You have got to be kidding. Would you like your mother to be sexually harassed at work? One hopes that you would prefer she be safe and respected. Well, other women want to be safe and respected also, so in that regard, real women do want to be treated like your mother.
4
I am retired now, but I never saw any of these behaviors besides the occasional joke. But then I worked in science, which is a merit based job and thus not filled with as many imbeciles. Many jobs, not in science, are hired based on very subjective criteria, often based on gut feel. Much like the current president and most of our congress and judiciary operate. People are stupid and make decisions based on appearances and other superficial factors, such as if you grovel nicely. Of course you will end up with inappropriate behavior from people who get hired because they are good suck-ups. Unfortunately in the US, that is most jobs. Most jobs are filled based on whether you appear to be subservient enough for the person doing the hiring. That is a basically dishonest approach that most people find normal. Most people also believe that Matt Lauer and Harvey Weinstein were powerful. They believe in the structure of power that doesn't really exist. The lack of reality based decision making means that people do not communicate in fact. Their education makes them good servants to the wealthy though.
Give the same survey to women. The results won't be that different if they answer honestly.
I am not sure anyone who believes in magic things in the sky can answer the survey honestly. The connection to reality is too weak.
5
You must be kidding! I'm glad that you did not experience this sort of behavior in your work. I have not in mine either. But that does not mean that such experiences do not exist--or even that they do now widely exist. There is reams of peered reviewed research showing bias in science, and even more personal accounts. For starters, here are few places to places to look:
- https://www.americanscientist.org/article/taking-the-long-view-on-sexism...
- http://science.sciencemag.org/content/357/6347/222
- https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/harassment-and-sexism-in-sci...
- https://www.wired.com/story/why-men-dont-believe-the-data-on-gender-bias...
- https://www.nature.com/articles/387341a0
- http://www.nature.com/news/science-and-sexism-in-the-eye-of-the-twitters...
An organizational ombuds office can be an indispensable, valuable resource and important alternative to formal channels in the sensitive and often very complex issues related to gender. These issues can affect not only employees (both female and male), but the organization and various other stakeholders as well.
Gender-related issues in the workplace – be they sexual or discriminatory in nature, overt or subtle, isolated instances or recurrent – are invariably quite sensitive and fundamentally more complex than they ostensibly may appear. An organizational ombuds, highly skilled in the interest-based approach to dispute resolution and a “process of discovery,” provides an invaluable alternative to rights-based channels, particularly with respect to gender-related matters.
Please refer to article: "The Benefits of the Organizational Ombuds in Gender-related Issues in the Workplace": https://www.ombudsassociation.org/Resources/IOA-Publications/The-Indepen...
As stated in the article, self reporting is unreliable. What is the line between sexual harassment and flirtation? Consent. Neither a man or a woman can admit to egregious conduct if they think that conduct was between two consenting adults. Even Weinstein claimed all of his encounters with starlets were consensual. He may have even believed it to be true.
My husband’s “workplace culture” includes an annual, half-day seminar on what behavior is allowable and what is subject to lawsuit. So everyone walks on eggshells at work, all year long! Yes, legally harassment is strictly definable to certain actions, but there is also something called “hostile workplace,” which can include sexual harassment but is not limited to that. The article fails to mention this. (One of hubbie’s employees who was fired for cause — being constantly late, generally flakey and consistently unreliable — tried to claim hostile workplace. She threatened to sue, but dropped that claim on her own — probably when no lawyer would represent her. Women do occasionally try to work the system.)
I am always skeptical of data collected by voluntary surveys — particularly phone surveys — because I would never answer such questions from a stranger. Nor would my spouse. People who readily comply are in a class of their own: people who willingly answer surveys. So I take this article with a grain of salt. Furthermore, the graphic illustrating the answer distribution is, while pretty, not at all easy to interpret.
2
Well if men are not allowed to provoke women with words, then women should not provoke men with visual cues. I've lost count how many times females around the office would wear clothing revealing their legs, chest and contoured clothing. No man is allowed to show up to an office wearing open toed shoes (aka sandals), shorts, a shirt that is half way buttoned to his sternum and tight fitting pants to show off his goods.
I'm sure there will be those who say "well i should be able to wear what i want without you judging me or coming after me!" - fine then we should be able to say what we want without you judging us or coming after us.
Most men have kept quiet about all this harassment that women in the workplace put men through. It's widely accepted that men are highly visual and the outward appearance of some women in the work place is highly inappropriate.
10
Apparently the survey is not the only place men are being honest about their bad behavior and odious attitudes.
2
Sorry that I have to explain this to a man again, but one more time:
What a woman chooses to wear=behavioral choice that she makes for herself
What a man says TO A WOMAN=behavior meant to impact SOMEONE ELSE.
See the difference? I won't be surprised if you say no.
1
The difference is hard to see. Do you realize that men's and women's sexuality is different.
Coming from a country where there is no war between sexes, I am amazed to see how sheepishly everybody in the US is joining the male bashing, ball cutting epidemics.
I am a quiet heterosexual working in a university hospital. I am used to be surrounded by women. I like it. I do harass any of them, but at times, I tell one "I like your new hairdo!". iI believe this quiet appreciation of your fellow shecoworkers makes life enjoyable at the workplace. Usually, a quiet compliment is well received.
From now on, if I get the ball cutting treatment after a compliment, I will know that the US has contaminated us. Sex war is on! Well, I won't fight!!
9
Really? This from https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/25/world/europe/france-emmanuel-macron-s...
“'Mr. Macron, speaking at a government-sponsored panel in Paris on the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, said that 'France must no longer be one of those countries where women are afraid' and that it was 'essential that shame change sides.'
Under their blows, under their abuse, a woman dies every three days in France,' Mr. Macron said in a speech at the presidential palace, referring to the number of women killed each year by their current or former partners."
4
President Macron is referring to domestic violence, not to harassment on the workplace which is the issue here.
Sadly, domestic violence is real and has been around for centuries, partly fueled by alcoolism.
Harassment on the workplace is more difficult to define and more culture dependent.
In France, a little flirting on the job is not considered offensive. The workplace may be the start of an love affair, even of a love story. The RVW attitude indeed is not part of our game.
I think many of the blue behaviors are probably indulged in by women as well .
Where is the survey to inform us of that?
Of course it may be that women indulge in these to fit in.
But let's don't pretend women don't make sexual jokes at work
7
Whoops you forgot something...following women into closets, kitchens, halls, anywhere they could potentially try to have physical contact with you! Sort of cornering you at very unexpected times! Then you leave and have to pretend nothing happened and attempt to avoid that individual...not good!
yeeecccckkkk!
2
I'm a woman, and I've occasionally told a sexual joke or two at work. Also, I've laughed at such jokes at work, whether told by men or women. On the other hand, I've heard some "sexual stories" here in my neighborhood that were about child prostitution and the like that really disturbed me. I don't mind a sex joke between adults. What I mind are insulting remarks about my body, grabbing, and generally condescending and insulting attitudes about women generally.
13
When does nit-picking to this degree become oppressive in and of itself?
I have worked in businesses run by men and by women. This crusade against men ignores the basic reality that so much of this behavior is about power, not sex. Women do unto women just as much nasty and destructive stuff —it is just a different expression of a power differential.
And any movement that implicates people based on identity to this degree is deeply hostile towards innocence, decency, fairness, free will, and justice.
6
Petty sure its a movement about the men who touch, grab, comment, intimidate and rape. The men- the majority - who do not and who aren't apologists for those that do, aren't being attacked, certainly not in an article that's about self reported harassing behavior. This article pretty clearly states that their findings are that most men don't report doing this stuff. But too many do.
It has always fascinated me that many men seem to want to listen to women about their experiences but when they hear the truth they often 1) act surprised 2) maintain disbelief and deny that these things occur instead of actually listening 3) change the subject to how sometimes women do bad things, too, 4) and often give terrible advice like, why didnt you run away, or why didnt you scream, or why didnt you punch him, or why did you laugh or smile if you didnt want that attention. When you are trying to dissolve a tense situation in which you are being harassed, the first thing that springs to mind is to keep yourself safe. It is to dissolve the tension to avoid further harassment or possible violence, verbal, physical, sexual, professional, or otherwise.
Being a woman in this country is hard. It is much harder than being a man.
Dont believe me? Is it because I am a woman?
12
It’s true, what you say about men’s reactions. Maybe they feel threatened. Or is it emotional immaturity? Children often deny the things they don’t want to be true.
I’m feisty. I have confronted men who’ve made sexist, misogynistic remarks to me (not at work, but out in the world). I even punched one once (in the shoulder). My confrontations have elicited a wide range of reactions. (I have also physically hurt men who physically assaulted me, but that is another subject.) These are some of them:
Name calling: The most common “insult” is the word for a gay woman, the second most common is the word for a female dog. Since I (straight) have beloved friends and relatives who are gay women, and since I like dogs rather more than most humans, neither of these words are received in the hurtful way they are intended. It’s interesting that the go-to insult is so often a version of telling a woman she is not sexually desirable to a man!
Screaming in my face: In this case, I secretly enjoy the possibility of the screamer damaging his health. I do.
Apology: Believe it or not, I have had men apologize and tell me they did not intend to insult or disparage me by crudely commenting on my looks or treating me like some “dumb blonde” incompetent. Go figure. Was I supposed to be flattered?
Digging the scolding: This is a weird one. For some reason I don’t understand, I have run into more exhibitionists and self-pleasuring weirdos than I can count. Some of them like being yelled at. Ugh.
Good lord -- how much more productive would we all be, guys (and a few gals, but mostly guys, let's deal with it), if y'all would just focus on your WORK rather than on your co-workers' body parts, and did your WORK, rather than spending (wasting) time groping and harassing your colleagues and telling dirty jokes? And how much stronger and more prosperous would your company and our country be? Just a suggestion.
11
THANK YOU. Why is this so hard to figure out? Oh, wait, it's not. Its just that people want to make excuses for their juvenile, damaging behavior.
3
Men and women have very different ideas of what constitutes harrassment and inappropriate behavior. Good luck getting anywhere near an objective self-evaluation from men who are raised to believe it is their priviledge to engage in inappropriate behavior. I remember reading a famous study where the majority of convicted college rapists denied what they did was rape. Even as they admitted to engaging in the legal textbook definition of rape. So the first thing you want to do is ask each man what harrassment looks like to them. What do they consider an offensive/sexual joke? What is sexual coercion? I guarantee your answers will be broadly across the map. Making surveys like this incredibly uninsightful.
2
Nice essentialism.
Thanks for this! The math in paragraph one seems to be off, though, or perhaps the analysis. I count 42 percent of men surveyed who reported either telling crude jokes or stories, making sexist remarks, or sharing inapropriate videos--that is, all of the "blue," more minor offenses. You counted 25 percent, perhaps because of leaving out the "Sexist remarks" category.
The graphic showing all the different-colored offenses in the crowd--different colored faces, that is--scared me. I'm married with grown children but it makes me feel like staying home or spending as much time as possible in all-women groups. Of course, men also often appreciate being with other men, too, so this suggests that we may all need to tune to tune in to the opposite sex better. How about a survey for "How much time do you spend in the company of the opposite sex? What are your feelings about the opposite Gender and why do you think you feel that way?" I believe you'll find that culture of upbringing and relationship with the opposite sex parent are important factors.
Although this is a scientifically weak study, one passage helps us draw some real benefit from it:
"In separate, smaller surveys, women were only somewhat less likely than men to admit to harassing behavior, even though men, in polls and in formal complaints, are far less likely to say they’ve been sexually harassed. It could be that men and women see the same behavior in different ways."
Everyone knows that men and women can be equally as sexually obsessed/aggressive/suggestive/persistent and inconsiderate of others (although it's generally accepted that women are more vulnerable). The question seems to be: How do we make the work environment better for everyone--i.e., more civil?
Sexuality is primal and is expressed in myriad ways. Some are habitual seducers but fear intimacy (the dance is the thing). Some want to pursue, while others want to be pursued. Some are offended by sexuality in general, while some revel in it. Some are naive and oblivious, while others are experienced and attuned.
It's therefore no surprise that what one finds offensive or scary can seem genuinely innocuous to another--regardless of their gender (extreme behavior is another matter).
It seems the solution is for us to behave as civilly as possible in the workplace and to be considerate towards others--in short, to put our human sensibility before our ape instinct. Companies can help with policies (and examples) that encourage and enforce civil behavior at the "village" level.
2
You have missed the point entirely.msexual harassment is about power. Over and out.
2
You failed to read the article and prefer to think in slogans reflecting only one-sided point of view. If the discussion doesn't get beyond that point, there will be no improvement.
3
In my opinion, questions 2, 3, and 5 make this survey useless. I would answer yes to those, and no to all others. This would apparently qualify me as "harasser", however the fact of the matter is that I know that my workplace is filled with those "some" who are offended by everything and if they haven't found something to be offended by lately, will go looking for something to be offended by. I am therefore very careful about who is around when choosing what to say and how to say it. Question 1 is iffy, also, because of the way "some" will interpret anything just to find something to complain about.
2
These are the ones who are self-aware enough to realize that they are engaging in objectionable behavior. Good for them. The real problem is those who aren't self-aware and/or think that their freedom to do and say whatever they feel like is the only thing that matters.
"Men who worked in the food and beverage industry and in blue-collar jobs, as well as those who were white or Republicans, were more likely to acknowledge harassing behavior."
Depending how the questions were phrased, it's possible that those not belonging to the above groups act similar, but have the education to recognize that they should not admit to anything.
1
It’s a strange and (to me) offensive categorization of workers, but there is another way to look at the implied conclusion in that quote. Among male restaurant workers and those in blue-collar jobs, sexist behavior may be considered part of the established “boys being boys” culture. Among the “white or Republican” (amporhous, and therefore meaningless as a category) group, there may be a sense of men having the God-given right to treat women as lesser beings. I say that because here in the NYT, as elsewhere, “white” and “Republican” used with “male” tends to be code for Christian. And if the abible says it’s so...you know.
I'm aghast that the only defense many men here can mount is "did you ask women the same questions?". I'm sure there are some women doing the same things - how does that in ANY way negate what the surveyed men have done? So weak - yes, let's ask women and then see what excuses men give next. I guess these guys are just giving as good as they get? Figure it's okay as long as they see a woman doing it? It really sounds like what 10-year-old boys would say when accused "She did it too!" That didn't work then and it won't fly now. Do your own survey - it doesn't impact THIS one in the slightest.
6
Your Figures re men supporting/not supporting Trump add up to more than 100%. Something not right.
1
This is news to no one, except, apparently, a lot of men commenting here. This is another opportunity to learn about how deeply behavior like this affects the women you work with, have friendships with, and love. Please don't dismiss it or, worse, tell us how tired you are of listening to it. As a woman, I don't have the luxury of just tuning it out because it bores me...
6
When men band together, in the workplace or anyplace, to plan how to humiliate a woman/women it is truly sexual harassment and all the men involved must be fired.
When a man unwittingly does something that seems discriminatory, because he was raised to believe it's okay, he needs to be educated.
There is a world of difference and it is all about "intent". The Con Don is a sexual predator. Senator Al Franken needs, and wants to be, educated. Franken should keep his seat in Congress. The Con Don and his Robber Baron/pretend christian brethren must be thrown out on their ears and sent to prison for treason.
10
I'm glad for many reasons that I essentially work completely alone. And this is one of them. The light and moderately blue colors (representing joke-telling and remarks that could be construed as offensive) are probably far wider an occurrence that admitted.
And, given the current climate, many women would probably feel compelled to label as offensive these kinds of behaviors (jokes and remarks) they once found meaningless or inoffensive, especially if told their criteria would help shape further "psychological" standards.
The survey could've captured greater nuance by differentiating between jokes/remarks that were OVERHEARD by an offended party, versus those that were directly directed TOWARDS them.
2
How about a follow-up study one year after providing the responders with a small card they could keep in their desk drawer or wallet that lists the ten offending actions. Ask as part of the study they look at the card daily and note any offensive behavior. Let’s see if consciousness can be raised with just such a small gesture.
5
it's a thoughtful idea
there have been studies that show that we can stop doing things (and start doing positive things) by becoming aware of them and telling ourselves "stop"
1
My late mother Miriam would have joined the #MeToo Movement
In 1941, Miriam, my 16 year old Mother, was raped by the principal of the synagogue where she taught. When I was in my 30s, Mother finally told her story. She had written it down, sent it to my sister and me and made clear that we were never to talk ask her about it.
Throughout her career as a Hebrew school teacher, principal, and finally as a doctor of Hebrew Letters—receiving her degree in her 60s from the Jewish Theological Seminary—discrimination was the hallmark of her experience with Jewish education.
The photographs of Mother as a young woman show a great beauty. In her account of her rape, Mother described the guilt she felt at provoking passion in a man she described as “saintly.” Mother was pregnant with me when she received her bachellor’s degree from Hunter College. Always an overachiever, she also received a bachellor’s degree in Hebrew letters at the same time.
Continually overqualified in a profession which in the 1950s was populated by brother-in-laws who could not find work elsewhere, I watched as over and over Mother was passed over for advancement and raises. Mother was in many respects a great woman. In 1960, she became the first person to teach Hebrew on television. However, despite the cover of bravado, Mother thought of herself as a victim believing that the men (who dominated the patriarchal system that all too often characterizes our religion) had a right to treat her poorly.
48
About 15 years ago, when my younger sister was meeting with the (male) rabbi at her conservative synagogue in preparation for marriage, the rabbi sexually harassed her. (I forget the details.)
After this, she was totally alienated from Judaism. She quickly got divorced from her husband and ended up later marrying a Christian guy. She now celebrates Christian holidays only and wants nothing to do with Judaism. Sexual harassment can have impacts that reverberate for the rest of one's life.
1
Who is to say this doesn't happen both ways? With women branding themselves as more confident, with more sexualized appearances, and with a sex drive at least as strong as men, women come on to men at work as well and so these surveys perpetuate an unfair view of sexual harassment at work. Twenty or thirty years ago I was told I was very good looking and stewardesses would ask me out on flights. I had at least two married women at work come into my office, close the door, and clearly imply that they would like to know me better. I took it as a compliment, nothing more and never acted on this. Because I married the love of my life and she is all the woman I could ever want. Did I do some harmless flirting back sometimes? Sure. But this 'reveal' of accusations of male harassment of women is getting too strident and doesn't reflect reality. I never forced my attentions on anyone didn't really see that among my corporate colleagues. We all know about office romances and clearly, one of those participants might come to feel jilted at some point and retaliate. Is that what is going on?
19
Of course it happens both ways, and maybe the same survey should be conducted on women. However, on average a man in the workplace is more likely to be in a position of power over the victim than is a woman, and on average an awfully lot more men are accused of this sort of behavior than women, so no, this is not just a bunch of frustrated, rejected women causing the problem as you imply.
4
No, Fred, that is not what is going on. It's all about consent; wanted vs. unwanted; mutual vs. one-sided. With a helping of power differential abuse sprinkled over. You and she both enjoyed some harmless flirting? You're off the hook. She made a pass, you turned her down and nothing else happened? You the man, Fred. You never forced your attentions on anyone? Fast track to sainthood right there.
I hope you get it, eventually.
9
Me, you beat me to it. What an ego!
1
Only 1% think their sex talk is unwanted... because they believe it's wanted. That particular question was phrased strangely.
That said I don't think this mirrors my experience. In my experience it's like 1-5% of guys who cause more than enough trouble for every man who ever existed.
26
It would be interesting to know how many women walked away when jokes were told or stayed to be one of the boys.
3
As a woman who has done both, I would say that it largely depends on how badly she needs to be one of the boys in order to succeed in her profession. Over the years it has gotten easier to walk away or speak up, but if you are a junior woman trying to succeed and get ahead in a male-dominated profession, the pressure to be one of the boys can be intense.
49
Walking away often means a barrage of insults, cat calling, name calling and an endless flood of nasty comments and treatment. Just try saying no thanks to the uninvited guy who sits next to you at lunch ... You don't know him, have been minding your own business but that does not save you from having insults and crude words heaped upon your head. Even getting up and moving away is an open invitation for abuse.
9
ZiggyZ7 nails ir correctly. Try not sticking around when you are one of only three or four women in IT and the building houses the data center. Might as well kiss your career goodbye.
Wanna be excluded from lunch? Pizza and beer down the street after work? How about when you come into view and the conversation stops?
Why would you even "wonder" something like that?
8
I love women, truly. I have not found it difficult to work alongside them and not touch them, not flirt or coerce them and simply enjoy their competence, humor and presence. Much of this stems from the fact that I have three sisters who really love men; female sexuality and desire is not really that much of a mystery to me. It is ever-present and intermittently much stronger than men's. But only intermittently.
A line from a French movie: "Men do not understand how much we love to watch them work." We are most manly when we are in control of ourselves, in the world, in the moment: commanding, creating, actualizing. There is no relationship "sexier" than that between a man and a woman working successfully together; anyone who has a good marriage knows this. However, in the workplace, actual physical contact is off the table. Consummation equals destruction, always.
So the problem is obvious: men do not fully understand how to enjoy the competence of a female peer in the workplace. Some men feel compelled, in a subordinate relationship with a woman in the office, to push the boundaries and coerce women in a thousand ways both subtle and brutal. They see an attractive and extremely capable female coworker who is good at her job and feel compelled to take possession of her, and then to limit her.
I do not know how to fix it. But I will say this: I would rather have a friend than a lover, because friends last for decades and lovers do not. It is not about you.
42
Look at your first paragraph, Brian. You assume that the women around you would WANT you to “touch,” “flirt” with, or “coerce” them. You pat yourself on the back for holding yourself back.
No, Brian. The women you work with don’t want you.
Thank you for defining the problem in a nutshell.
2
Thank you. Most of the men I have worked with have treated everyone equally and with respect. It's been encouraging to see so many men speak up about this issue.
2
Best reply I've seen from a man since this all started. Thank you ... and thank you to your sisters, too.
3
On the plus side, the survey asks about the past year rather than at any time. On the minus side, there's only a brief note at the bottom on how the survey was done:
"Morning Consult conducted online surveys from Nov. 27 to Dec. 4 with 615 men who work full time. About 2 percent chose “don’t know” on each sexual harassment question."
That leaves the reader pretty uninformed about the nature of this sample - at least give us some stats on how the demographics of the sample compare to the target population.
3
Even if the demographics are comparable, or weighted to look comparable, the survey is self-selecting and not remotely a random sample. Hence it cannot be considered representative
5
Wow! There are lots of triggered men responding here.
We should all value our co-workers enough to consider their feelings when we speak and act. Most men have not had the desire or need to learn about the steady onslaught of insults that women endure daily. Most men have engaged in casual sexism so they are predictably defensive about being told that their behavior was not OK. They scour their memories for situations where a woman made a joke or men did something worse to other men as if two wrongs make it right.
They as so very concerned about women's "overreaction" as if there hasn't been decades and centuries of men pretending that their obnoxious behavior was just boys being boys.
Listen up guys. You can't keep calling women oversensitive every time you don't understand how offensive your behavior is.
65
Well stated, Medusa. I have that “discussion” with my husband frequently: saying that your actions or words were not hurtful does not undue any harm they caused.
3
Your response is quite bigoted against men and is refuted by the data within the story you are commenting on.
You: "Most men have engaged in casual sexism so they are predictably defensive about being told that their behavior was not OK."
The data: Over 80% of men have not engaged in any of these behaviors in the past year. You could raise this number to a much higher percentage were we to segment the population by education, political leaning, and occupation.
absolutely agree. Thank you. Men have to find the guts to look at society, power structures, and their own behavior more skeptically. Many refuse to face how they have benefitted since birth, and how they resent display of sexual power by women.
Guess what, guys? Sexual power is the only power women truly have in our society. And, of course, many religions work to eliminate even that.
3
Go watch a rerun of a ‘Golden Girls’ episode. That TV show was all about sex jokes and innuendo, and all the jokes were made by women. Personally, I just found it coarse and unfunny, so I didn’t watch it. But it was a very popular show at the time.
Today, that show would probably be considered offensive, but we air advertisements about erectile dysfunction during hours that small children might be watching, and it’s considered normal. I’m so confused. Wait, no I’m not, society is.
18
Unless watching reruns of "Golden Girls" is part of your job description, I don't see the relevance.
25
Women were rarely writing or producing those shows, and if they were, they were being active participants in capitalism: that was what sold.
2
No, its definitely you as well. The Golden Girls is a TV show. The Golden Girls is not reality. Also, ads about medicine are not reality. They are ads. On TV. This article is about men self reporting their boorish behavior that is at the center of a very important moment in American culture- real life. And what they are telling us is that they don't act very well. These are things that are real. The Golden Girls and pharma ads are not. Oh and BTW- the men acting this way likely came of age well before your TV starting showing you those two particular things.
2
Do we assume that all these men were heterosexual? Apparently the question was not asked, which would certain bias the results. One can assume that gay men are not likely to sexually harass women.
4
They are likely to bully women, however. And I speak from experience.
29
Likely?
1
Come on !! We are bombarded by sex from all around and then wonder why these situations arise ? I am actually so tired of hearing about these incidents that largely take place between adults. We should all watch our behavior and be AS concerned about all the wars that are percolating about, in part thanks to the aggressive nature of our dear president. I find it a foolish and dangerous distraction.
6
How individuals treat each other is reflected in how countries treat each other. This is not foolish, nor is it a distraction.
Was someone expressing surprise?
1
It is egregious that the second question is written as "Made remarks that some might consider sexist or offensive," but then the respondents to this question are listed later in the article as having made "sexual remarks."
So, technically, if you said "Donald Trump is a moron" at work, and someone found that offensive, you have made a "sexist remark." I suspect that this was not deliberate, because of the huge amount of respect I have for the Times, nut my goodness is that an incredibly poorly worded question.
11
I think it's deliberate.
2
Some of the responses here I find puzzling. There seems to be a lot of "women do it too" or confusion about what is harassment.
Women are not perfect. I work in HR so I'm keenly aware that they are just as capable of unprofessional behavior as men. That said, in many (arguably most) industries men dominate the workplace both as a percentage of the workforce as well as the percentage in management positions. They hold the corporate power and create the culture. Stop whining that a light is finally be shone on this situation. Some of us who have to try police this are extremely pleased that men are on notice and that a conversation is being had in businesses around the country.
Secondly, I'm always astounded by how little people understand about workplace dynamics and what a hostile work environment actually is. Our educational system as well as our companies are failing to make people understand what professional behavior looks and sounds like before people get into the workplace.
If you want to be unprofessional it's why god invented bars.
53
In connection with your comment, I noticed throughout my work life that often people equate "coworkers" with family, which in my opinion is a huge mistake. Nepotism contributes to this, which is why all private and public workplaces should prohibit hiring friends and family of current employees.
The current administration is a perfect example of this toxic practice and the reason why there is such a lack of talent and productivity there.
Not only is there retaliation for refusing sexual advances in some workplaces, but also refusing to participate in outside social interactions and "company socials."
I always kept work at work and lived my personal life separately and privately--I was often ostracized for this. American workplaces have been perceived as social gatherings for decades. Mediocre employee performance is rewarded by promotion due to "networking" and socializing while true producers are overlooked and disdained.
The above observed in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s until final retirement and relief to be out of such hypocrisy. Some workplaces are better than others depending upon leadership.
One reason I ran road races during working years was that when running races, one could not alter the truth of one's race time: It was what it was, not what one wished it were and did not depend on brown nosing the timer or making friends with other runners. If one did not like one's final time one had two choices: 1) train harder or 2) accept an inferior gene pool.
2
My experience as a woman who entered the corporate workforce in the 1980s is that men saw female colleagues and underlings as sexually attainable, while women saw other women as competitors to be taken down (that competitive aggression was also aimed at undermining the weaker males in the hierarchy). That “culture” was still true in the 1990s. I’m retired now, and we’ll out of it, thank goodness.
1
By "bars" do you mean drinking establishments or municipal hotels?
Admittedly, certain behavior is acceptable in cocktail lounges that would not be acceptable at work, but unwelcome sexual advances? I think not. At least once it has been made clear that they are unwelcome.
1
"that some might consider"
Did our esteemed researchers attempt to quantify the respondents' reliability as mind readers?
Social "science" "research" is so entertaining. And, predictable.
12
People dismiss social science because they don't want to hear the results. When a round earth interferes with your theory you'll deny that, too.
"Social science" is not "science". It's wild speculation.
You're missing a key question: Have you witnessed other men engaging in these behaviors or heard them describe such behaviors and either confronted them or reported them to superiors in your workplace? Silence = complicity. Let's survey how many men let themselves off the hook because they don't directly harass women themselves.
20
Um....no - I've never heard another man say that they'd demanded sex for promotion, committed sexual assault, or anything else that would qualify as harassment. If you're asking whether I've heard tasteless jokes, the answer is "yes." But I don't view jokes told in private between consenting adults, when neither one is offended, as harassment. I hope that you don't, either.
14
SM: Joke told in private in the workplace exclude women. The men involved hide the computer screem, stop talking, or fade away. And sometimes those "jokes" are heard.
I can't think of a better way to ensure that women feel isolated, excluded and unwanted. Of course the same can be said of being black, gay, Muslim, Japanese, Indian - and the list goes on.
2
You are mistaken, and the legal definition is quite clear. You might want to review it before you inadvertently commit it and find yourself in a lawsuit.
1
As science -- and I say this as a scientist who has conducted many surveys -- this is third rate stuff. But I can guarantee you it will be cited by the MSM and all those crusading against male behavior in the work place.
19
"... the MSM and all those crusading against male behavior..."
Ha ha! Okay, buddy. Got it.
9
Not to mention an online survey. A lot junk pretends to be 'representative' these days, particularly as it is extremely expensive to get anything remotely resembling a random sample.
1
As a woman, I say define “male behavior in the workplace.”
Science depends on precision.
I'm retired now, but during my career (in finance), I would say upwards of 50% of men engaged in the "blue" behaviors. I would say that some women were offended or embarrassed by the "banter," some gave as well as they got, and some picked their spots to object. The men could also be divided into categories, those who engaged constantly in "blue" behaviors (gross), those who did occasionally (funny), and those who never did (prudes or gentlemen, depending on their general personality). This is to say, it's a minefield. People who work together develop their own social mores, kind of like family. Interactions with clients were a bit different. If a client was "gross," I'd ask to be reassigned, but for me this never happened. What I think we need are humane HR staff that will believe people when they feel harassed and talk to the alleged miscreants. There is a middle ground, a dirty joke is not rape. Patterns of behavior are more important than incidents, I think. Human interaction is difficult. Truly offensive behavior is fairly easy to recognize. Covering up for the Harvey Weinstein's of the world is atrocious. Not every #metoo deserves the death penalty. That said, this discussion is good, I think, as women face much more discrimination at work than sexual harassment.
22
There is no middle ground, Chris. You describe an egregiously hostile workplace. Truly “gross.”
Sexual harassment *is* discrimination.
You might want to do some reading up on micro-aggressions. I’m not sure you know what they are.
Remember when the NYT ran short profiles for each of the victims of 9/11? One of them stuck with me because I so loved the person described. She was an employee with one of the brokerages. A trader, I think. She had quietly and humorously retaliated against a male college who was treating her like a go-fer (repeatedly sending her out on personal errands). When he gave her a pair of his shoes to be resoled, she had them bronzed. And a lesson was learned.
3
I'm sorry, but as a guy this poll only shows that at least 1/3 or 2/3 of my fellow men are liars or completely out of touch with themselves. Crass jokes, gestures and other forms of "forgotten harassment" are commonplace. Men who "aren't part of the problem" interact and buddy up to men who are part of the problem everyday, and in doing so we are complicit and should shade in our faces. You laugh at (if not tell) jokes, you make gestures, you know you do...I admit I do. But now I'm more aware of ramifications of not only my actions, but also my inactions...time to fess up and fix myself. And you too...start by shading in your face!
27
@Matthew: Thank you!
2
"Men with graduate degrees or strong disapproval of President Trump reported lower rates of harassing colleagues. Those who said that they never showed up to work under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or didn’t socialize with colleagues outside of work, were also significantly less likely to acknowledge such actions."
Surprise surprise. In other news; Hungry Man More Likely to Eat Free Sandwich, Klu Klux Klan Members Likely Also Racists.
As in most pressing issues (overpopulation, pollution, economic disparities, etc.) education is the way forward, and yet we fund military expansionism and approve another tax cut for the uber-rich.
8
Wow. That’s not thinking: it’s preening.
All that’ll that is required is that they keep their minds above their belts.
3
Some men are confused about what constitutes sexual harassment towards a female co-worker or client. I have an easy explanation:
If you (a man) would not say "that" or do "that" to or with your mother, you aunt, your grandmother, your sister, or your daughter, you should not say "that" or do "that" with a co-worker or client.
It's really that simple.
Do you really need to talk about your weekend sex exploits with your co-worker buddy? Fine, go out to lunch and have that conversation off premises and away from other people you work with. Watch porn on your own time. Your employer is paying you to do your job. Your employer is not paying you to chat about sex, tell sexual jokes, or look at porn.
33
So men should interact with all women as if they are related???
Think that one through
1
Sounds about right. When I was working in Iran they had this law strictly enforced by the vice police, you cant be together on the street with a woman if she is not your wife, your mom, your daughter or your sister.
We are almost there.
In my opinion the worst kind of harassment often comes from professional men. i was never harassed as frequently as when I was a very young-looking twenty one year old working in a law office on Wall Street. Every day the walk from the IRT to the office was a gauntlet of men in suits whispering obscene suggestions to a woman who was clearly young enough to be their daughter. The difference was that they whispered what they'd like to do in a voice so low nobody heard it but you.
I would have preferred being allowed to pass by with no comment, but I much preferred the honest wolf whistles from the guys in the mail room, who would laugh with you when you flipped them the bird, to the dirty whispers by men in power. The guys in the mail room were just relieving boredom. The men in suits knew what they were doing was deeply wrong.
One hot summer day I got fed up with it. A guy in an expensive suit whispered something to me about my breasts as I walked past. I looked him in the face and yelled at him for talking about my body. He turned tail and ran off like a guilty rat. The funny thing is that nobody bothered me again after this. Something had changed in me and they could sense I was someone who would not allow their intrusions in to my space
36
Wow, good for you! It's dismaying to realize so many men were just walking lies in expensive suits; they were really creepy and dishonorable. Their hypocritical posing as substantial and respectable was contemptibly false.
When I was young, I worked in many offices, but I honestly can't recall a time when I was sexually harassed. The reason was that I had a boyfriend who was considered a loose cannon. Everybody knew about him because he would drop me off and also visit me there. He was a law student, and later a lawyer -- an assistant DA. He would not have hesitated to come down to the office and punch out a harasser --- after he had first called the guy's wife and his boss. That made me radioactive. Once we had divorced, I was older, so not harassed the way young women were.
To my fellow heterosexual men: Don't do anything to a woman that you wouldn't want your gay boss to do to you.
Does that clarify expectations? Can you now apply the Golden Rule to the workplace?
Relearning how to be a decent person is not as hard as the denial and the obfuscation in this comment thread suggest.
70
The instrumentalizing of gay identity is disturbing in these post-Weinstein panic discussions. The vast majority of the world's population believes all gay sexuality (identity and behavior) is "sexual misconduct" so LGBT employees are already deemed problematic in this regard.
These patronizing editorials are tiring. The extreme feminists positions at this newspaper, and constant drumbeat of victimhood from angry college brainwashed women is insulting to decent women and men. But why won't women speak up and defend the smear on all men?
Next week let's have an editorial on how and why so many women manipulate men and others with their sexuality. Then we can move forward to the number of women who when in a bitter divorce will lie and say the man has molested the kids. Then we can discuss women who want money from men simply because they were married for two minutes. After that, let's discuss how many women lie about pregnancy to trap a guy.
That would be wrong and demeaning to focus on a sample of indecent women who do not represent the vast majority, correct? I guess fairness and decency is a one way street. I'm starting to rethink the left I always stood by. No one should wonder why we have Trump.
36
Smartest comment here. We are in a "man are bad and women are good" narrative in America..at least on the extreme left. I have some news for you...for every bad man in America that harasses there is a bad woman who manipulates and uses here looks to get what they want.
Truth hurts right?
12
As a female, I agree. I too am tired of this one-sided 'conversation' we've been having these past few months. I also dislike how so much of this talk is generally coming from PC, hipster, millennial-blogging-pseudo-feminist types...women who all look, act, and think alike. So in other words, I don't like anything that is part of a 'trend'. I would have more respect for individual women who spoke out about such incidences, 'when' they decided it was time to speak out...not because it's the latest topic of conversation, or because they know they'll get lots of Likes, Shares, etc. from like-minded women, or because they might get a book deal (because it's the topic of the moment) etc. I hate the pack mentality that social media has created.
12
As a woman, I agree. I suspect the majority of us do. But we are silenced. Indeed, I've written two posts here that haven't been published---they aren't offensive in the least. THey just don't conform to the narrative.
This isn't about sexual harassment. It's a political attack against Trump, which is very obvious when you read further. I loathe being used as a tool for someone else's power agenda.
4
Thank you to all the decent men I have worked with for the last 30 years, who never told dirty jokes, made gestures or worse behavior and who told other men to stop that bad behavior when women coworkers approached.
How can so many men not understand what women are saying.. we want to be able to work and never deal with any form of harassment no matter how minor they consider it.
22
Given today's political situation, any man who does any of these things is like a North Korean, or someone in Castro's Cuba, who speaks disrespect to the Dear Leader. The totalitarian whip will come out very quickly.
3
another analysis could be done on these comments. maybe 2018 can inspire more empathy, understanding and compassion?
5
The problem with with a question like "Touched someone in a way that made him or her feel uncomfortable" is that the toucher often doesn't KNOW that he is making the touchee feel uncomfortable. So a lot of men and women may say they haven;t engaged in that behavior when they have, but didn't know it. Some commentors here and elsewhere may say that if one is being touched and doesn't want to be, one should say so. But if that person rubbing your shoulders or neck, stroking your arm, patting your butt, is maybe much older; a professor emeritus; a former President of the United States; the owner's father; a retired former employee of the company who comes back to visit; one may think that getting mad or saying anything at all could be taken offensively; one might then be called "touchy" or "uptight". So the question is really "Touched anyone in the workplace in a way not prescribed by the work". For instance if you ask someone in the cafeteria to hand you a paper towel and he takes the opportunity to grab your hands and massage them, whether or not he's aware of making the receiver feel uncomfortable, it's not behavior that has anything to do with work (unless he's the on-site occupational therapist.) Best workplace practice: at work stick to working at work.
8
These are certainly encouraging findings, and not surprising. The only responses with significant percentages were Jokes and Stories, and Sexist Remarks. The more serious categories, like unwanted groping, or actual harassment, were tiny single digit percentages. And the vagueness of the questions make the data pretty questionable. Asked if they have ever told a joke at work that “some people might find offensive”, most men would probably say yes. The real question is who he told it to, and how, and whether that particular person was actually offended. We all make cracks at lunch with our friends that we woulndt say out loud in a meeting, but theyre trying to count that, fishing for whatever offensiveness they can find lurking under a generally tame and safe office culture. They are missing the fact that people need to let off steam, they need to tell dumb jokes with their buddies during lunch break, and for many, thats how they manage to stay calm and respectful the rest of the day. And virtually everyone has accidentally misfired and said something inappropriate at some point in their career, often in a clumsy attempt to make their colleagues smile. We need to stop this oppressive culture of censorship where everyone has to walk on eggshells and be humorless lest they be guilty of the dreaded harassment.
9
Although I realized last year (after the Access Hollywood tape) that I had been sexually harassed twice and sexually assaulted three times these hadn't taken place at work. Until now I would have said I'd never had problems at work. I look at this poll and realize all four of the lowest ranked actions happened to me, all at least several times. For me, it's amazing the number of times I--and I believe most women--have just ignored, perhaps, like me, not even realizing the actions were a problem. We were used to them as part of working with immature men. I should have taken a stand, told the men off--but with the acceptance of such low standards nearly universally--well, I didn't know that was wrong. Now I do and it must stop. I'm 75 and just now realizing what women have put up with all these years.
7
Congratulations. You're being hypersensitized and given a sense of victim entitlement. All of us are best off letting little things go. If we are constantly looking for offense and becoming outraged it will be very bad for us individually. And it will be very bad for society. But the post-modern soviet doesn't care who and how many they harm in their lust for destruction.
1
I'm disturbed by the volume of comments here dismissing these mens' answers to survey questions and jumping to extreme fears of thought police or shouting "but women wear makeup!" There's no reason to disbelieve this self-reported data, and women seem to agree that the numbers sound pretty accurate to their experiences. Why so much defensiveness from men when one of their own admits to telling an off-color joke? This article and survey aren't advocating for those men to go to prison or even lose their jobs. It's just a way to highlight that there are behaviors happening regularly in the workplace that aren't professional. What we do with that information is up to us as a society. But denying that it happens or pretending it's never a problem isn't going to make our work places better, not for women, but also not for men.
10
A factor in all of this is the nature of the workplace -- generally, people try to establish themselves as important, whether through the quality of their work, or by playing a dominant role socially. A man who is trying to assert social dominance may emphasize his masculinity -- for example, by being "one of the guys" at the water cooler. With women, he may highlight gender distinctions by being overly polite or overly assertive. Either way, the work environment is more comfortable for women when work -- not role-play -- is the basis for interactions.
4
Women in general are raised to always be 'nice'. "Be a good girl", is reinforced in our family, school and society. Many women may respond to negative situations with niceness, often too nice. It's how they are trained. I think women must relearn this and not be so nice all of the time. Men take advantage of their ''niceness''. If you have a daughter, teach her to be assertive and protect herself. Call out the bad boys.
15
Inclusion of three "some might consider offensive" questions greatly reduces any legitimacy the study may have had.
Somebody somewhere will find something offensive. So I'm surprised the study rate isn't 100%.
Talk about your BLT sandwich and how much you love bacon? Maybe the orthodox Jewish co-worker will find it offensive (because you weren't sensitive enough to know she was fasting for a Jewish holiday).
Talk about the Luau your family attended during a trip to Hawaii? You offend a person with 1/32nd Native American ancestry who is triggered.
Utter the term "white trash" in passing? Perhaps the admin who grew up poor in a trailer park is offended?
12
tew, I am so glad that I don't have to work around you.
6
Likewise. I work best with people who have a sense of humor without demeaning others and who can work logically.
The rules are very different for men and women. Women can do almost anything and get away with it. They can flirt, they can sleep with the boss. At receptions I have seen women attach themselves to the arm of a man the moment that man's wife or date steps away. In my office, run by a woman, it's OK to have a catered lunch at the office and invite guests from the field consisting only of women to discuss business issues. No male professionals are invited to participate because of their gender. As a man, what is disappointing is that the more powerful women become at the office, the more they seem to want to put male colleagues down.
15
What exactly is the purpose of this exercise?
Like one of the commenters just said: this goes both ways. The onus is on men to have to prove that they are not animals, while women are free to accuse as predators those who dare to say/do the slightest act of what they could consider inappropriate based on whatever mood they may feel that day. Why not conduct a survey about dress codes for men and women in the workplace that includes what each gender group thinks about the way other genders are allowed to dress for work? Maybe some men would not feel the need to comment on a coworker's body if that body were not exposed or delicately delineated by tight or provocative clothes to begin with. Maybe a joke is the best way to send a message about the degree of inappropriateness in a coworker's attire, instead of choosing the more direct, and tension filled way to bring that up. Maybe women could be asked in that survey their true opinions on the reasons why they choose to dress the way they do at work. I've seen my share of female "ladder climbers" who use their sexuality as a means to climb that ladder quicker. Let's stop pretending that men are the ones who are entirely at fault here and start including in this conversation aspects of female behavior that contribute to the factors at play here. Not all men are rapists and/or predators. And not all women are innocent victims in this issue.
15
Women at work are not being "thin-skinned" when bringing to light the bad behaviors of some of the men with whom they work. They are requesting that men treat them with the same respect and dignity you'd treat any colleague or coworker. Given the ongoing pay gap, power differentials, etc., sexual harassment in all forms only perpetuates a toxic environment. Why people see this as an assault on democracy, etc., is beyond me. The day to day wear and tear of inappropriate behaviors and thoughtless conversations takes a big toll. Many men have a deep sense of entitlement that manifests itself in condescension toward women at all levels. I have spent years in academia, and it's there, as well. We all have our stories. My hope is that men stop denying women's experiences and perhaps use this as an opportunity for a little self-reflection, and maybe even a change of behavior. You can still have joking, fun relationships and exchanges with women colleagues, but you need to see if you're both on the same page. It's called social intelligence and emotional bandwidth.
14
I've always made an effort and personal rule to avoid socializing with my co-workers from an very early age. I have my professional life and my other private life. I never saw the two intertwined as being a positive. Keeping them separated has always been an advantage. Work 'friends' can suddenly turn toxic for whatever reason and make your job impossible. Show up at the office parties then leave asap. Do not go out for drinks after work either. Bad habit.
Men how use their workplace as their platform for meeting women or looking to harass usually overlook those who are busy with their work and lives. Look right over, around or through them. They know who to prey on and will ignore you if they can not get your attention. Like a ten year old boy.
7
This is a particularly meaningless effort by the NYT. Way too easy to dismiss for a variety of reasons and allows the thoughtless many to validly critique it.
Still, I was dismayed to read numerous comments about how what's happening is an "overcorrection" and how men need to "defend themselves." I have no doubt that sexual harassment is as significant - if not more so - a problem as described in the media recently.
However, preventing workplace harassment is not a mysterious concept - you set a standard and make sure it's enforced, both formally and informally. If employers/leaders/managers/supervisors wanted to eliminate the problem, they could. Only the most lunkheaded businesses or organizations could be sincerely confused about this.
I can tell you - humor and laughter can still exist! (Men may just need to work on their material a bit.) Friendship and warmth among the genders is still quite possible in this scenario, without crossing the line. And for you bottom line types, the best part is increased productivity! Imagine an HR department that only rarely had to deal with these issues.
It's just not that difficult.
2
Questions:
Would simply discussing THIS ARTICLE with a female co-worker while on lunch break today be considered a form of sexual harassment?
Would it be more likely to be considered a form of sexual harassment if I out ranked her in the firm?
By the standards of this survey, the answer might very well be “YES”.
8
I don't necessarily disagree with many of the comments here that "sexual harassment" means different things to different people, that borderline comments or romantic interest can be okay for some and not for others, and that there are some serious shades of gray. This is complicated stuff (except for the obviously, grossly inappropriate things like touching, distributing pornography in the workplace, etc.), and it does no one any good to pretend otherwise.
What I don't understand is why that means we should all throw our hands into the air, declare that "boys will be boys" and women should just grow "thicker skin," and cease all discussion. The point of this article is to start a discussion and raise awareness. If you insist on approaching the discussion with the view that you are not open to self-examination, to giving serious consideration to others' points of view, or to potentially even changing your tune then yes, you, sirs, are part of the problem. I suspect it is because part of you instinctively rebels against the notion that women should be allowed to have any influence at all over your behavior, but maybe you feel entitled enough to believe that no one should.
18
What is encouraging about this "survey" has nothing to do with its results. Those results were pre-ordained by the politically correct puritans who designed the study when they defined unwelcome harassment as any conduct that "someone might be considered offensive." Not conduct that a reasonable person might consider harassment. Not conduct that a reasonable person who witnessed the conduct might consider harassment. But conduct that anyone, anywhere, perhaps with no connection to to knowledge of the conduct in question might consider harassment. No, now according to the New York Times, if you say or do something that might offend "someone" anywhere in the world, that constitutes offensive harassment. It is an approach that would have been well understood by the medieval church.
No, the refreshing and encouraging thing about this phony "survey" is just how uniformly the readers who have commented on it have rejected the nonsense. Even the readership of the New York Times, who generally select that outlet because they can't get enough of "progressive" ideas, apparently can see through this sham.
So there is still hope that our latter-day Inquisition can be derailed.
6
What are the comparable numbers for women?
Given how low the bar is for this "bucket of behaviors", my personal observations over many employers would indicate AT LEAST a third of women I've worked with have exhibited at least one of those behaviors. I know that my personal observations are worth about the cost of the letters I'm typing, but without access to unbiased and statistically significant research, it's what I've got. That, and conversations with other people.
15
The broad brush and accompanying witch hunt only serve to harm persona who really are victims of sexual harassment and crimes. And yes, they are out there.
16
“Leading” sexual harassment researchers, huh? Who might they be? “Gender” harassment, aren’t harassing behaviors part of a larger pattern of bullying and discrimination? What’s that mean in our gender fluid society? Surprising “Just” how many (men) admitted to some form of (qualified) harassing behaviors, is “just” a fact or conclusion? Am I really supposed to believe that a third of men in the office are sexual harassers because I heard an off color joke “at least” once in my career? Does intent matter? Is this survey meant as one more piece of evidence in the court of public opinion?
One more question, Do Blonde jokes count?
15
Yes, son, blonde jokes are obnoxious: the dumb-blonde stereotype is demeaning to all women. Don't tell those jokes at work.
And please take your finger off the "quotation marks" key!
10
IMHO...blonde jokes count
5
The survey is ridiculous on several levels.
1) It mixes harmless and normal behavior (sexual jokes and remarks) together with actual misconduct. Whatever the p.c. police says, jokes and remarks are totally okay and both sexes engage in it. As every man knows who ever listened in on women talking when they believe no men are present.
2) It is very unlikely that any actual offenders would admit to it, so you are left with those men who either did something harmless (see above) or are decent enough to recognize their mistakes. The real predators are left out because they would never classify their behavior as wrong, or if they did, they wouldn't admit to it.
3) Self-reported victimhood is just as unreliable. No one can know ho many of those 50% 'victims' among women never experienced anything worse than a crude joke, but it is probably a sizable group.
As with most things in the current (and generally justified) anti-Trump climate, extreme exaggeration and fanaticism among liberals and the activist fringe will eventually backfire because the ordinary folk see through it and turn away in disgust.
21
Interesting how 123% of the men who engaged in one of these behaviors had an opinion about Donald Trump.
7
The remaining 67% probably lied about having an opinion about Trump.
I was wondering about that myself!
This should have been a good, solid topical article. But...two things.
First..NYT should explain a methodology that allows a total of 121% re approval of our abuser-in-chief. Makes me suspicious of the statistics, methodology and conclusions elsewhere.
Second...The off-color joke/remark as the gateway to actual harassment...just looking at the pointillist chart of 615 shows a lake of blue points and a lake of smaller reds/yellows, some of which have blues. The whole Gateway To Harassment point reeks of Reefer Madness. I worked in a progressive white-color large company for 30 years, mixed M/F about 50-50. I heard as much slightly off-color humor from women as men. And as many potentially offensive remarks.
Focus on the Red/Yellows. Ignore the blues, unless you want to start on thought crime, but then you have to go after both sides. It's not an androgynous world or workplace.
19
So if you are a resentful man and feeling unappreciated at work it always make sense to sexually harass your female co-workers. Great excuses.
Do you know why these jerks harass women? Because they can.
They don't need a reason to be idiots, they just are.
27
This is an interesting article with curious info graphics, but the fact that it is now normal to categorize and group male behavior and thoughts in this regard with the intent on punishing or criminalizing is a bit more disturbing to me. Even the title alone, essentially, "how men behave", with the implication that it is wrong and needing fixing, is disturbing.
It looks like the higher caliber ones of 1-3% are definitely problematic issues. But the problem is where you start grouping every action, and you come up with a figure like 38% males. I bet in 6 months we could re-adjust the questions so that the number is more like 65% males. What if we ask how often a male had a sexual thought about a female coworker in his career, even one time? I bet we could hit 95% on that one. At some point, likely already, this turns from a fair discussion of sexual harassment to a witchhunt on men.
12
This survey, and its results, mainly illustrate the difficulty we now face in articulating both the nature of sexual harassment - and its very important relationship to an even more important problem, sexual discrimination. Nothing in this survey asks about sexual discrimination, which still continues to deny women jobs, advancement, equal pay, and even the careers of their choice.
The comments, so many of them from whiny and defensive men, clearly illustrate how many men still refuse to get it, refuse to take responsibility for their sexism, refuse to stop demeaning and discriminating against women. Right now, the results show that well over half of men commenting are willing and eager to carry on sexual harassment and discrimination anywhere, any time.
26
The focus of this survey was subjective identity on gender harassment in the workplace. This is just the starting point for understanding how men identify their behavior in the workplace, and yet we have people in these comments who shift the dialogue as to political correctness and to what women wear.
If you are so concerned as to what women wear, you might want to consider checking your HR employee handbook and consulting with a rep to help. Other than that, don't promote gender harassment in the workplace. Overruled, sir.
9
Most studies / articles I found via google show that 15% to 20% of spouses meet in the workplace. In some studies it was the second highest category to "other".
5
Sexual harassment is obviously a gigantic problem. But what worries me more is the endemic, widespread sexism that shows itself as male supervisors taking on a paternalistic view of female employees, subconsciously assuming things about their capabilities or pigeonholing them into certain tasks or roles, or even being outright patronizing. My hope is that the metoo movement brings about a real awakening to sexual harassment. My fear is that focusing only on the most egregious behavior will lead us to conclude, if that happens, that our work is done.
19
End all sexual harassment by the opposite gender and eliiminate all opportunity for gender harassment at work. Segregate, by gender, the workplace. This will eliminate all real harassment and also any opportunity for the micro aggressions that seem to permeate certain people's consciousness. Focus exclusively on workplace performance.
3
So, guys on one side of the mountain and the gals on the other?
If "nearly half of women" say they had experienced "sexual harassment", then it's normal behavior. We need to lower the bar or re-define the term.
9
Would you apply the same reasoning to a question about people of color?
4
Interesting in a limited kind of way. My #MeToo moments have all been out of the workplace. What I have experienced at work is the kind of harassment that is gender based but not necessarily sexual. In my case it was encountering a manager who did not want women working for him except doing the most menial aspects of the job and the lengths he would go to 'convince' me (and at least two others) to leave. I tried to bring him to account but the discrimination was subtle and hard to quantify, if no less damaging to my career. I know I'm not the only woman who has been through this; where do we fit into this debate?
19
What you experienced was gender discrimination, not sexual harassment. To answer your question: you're participating in the wrong debate. Don't make things worse by conflating two very important issues.
4
Read the entire post; that's exactly what I said ("the kind of harassment that is gender based but not necessarily sexual") and it IS part of the issue and this kind of behavior does belong in this debate. But thanks for the womansplaining!
I find this entire article harassing and offensive. There, see how easy it is to come up with the desired results!
12
""Made remarks that some might consider sexist or offensive."
You have got to be kidding!
There is always going to be someone who is going to be offended. Indeed, in today's vengeful PC climate, many feminists go out of their way to be "offended" by remarks they disagree with. (There -- have I offended anyone?).
Being offended is not about sex; it's about power. It is using the charge or insinuation of sexual harassment to silence views you disagree with.
15
"Being offended is not about sex; it's about power. It is using the charge or insinuation of sexual harassment to silence views you disagree with."
It's much more than silencing. The power to be gained is principally from virtue signaling and "putting people in their place." In other words, sensitivity and offense are being used by some to imply that others are inferior or (as in bullying) to prop themselves up and reassure themselves of their strength. "How could you say that? You're such a disgusting misogynist pig! (By implication, I'm righteous and don't have to reexamine my worldview.)"
1
And don't this male started on all the women who have touched me inappropriately, made sexist remarks about my gorgeous legs and asked me to join them for a "business" lunch. I'm told to get over it but I am very damaged.
3
The Niagara-Paris Exchange over a frozen tree earlier this week:
Paris: Remind me never to go on my honey moon there! (from a Parisian widow of a certain age)
NY: 'The winter bride's second disappointment is the honeymoon' - (Oscar Wilde)
Paris: The first?
NY: I fear this would be a personal experience by the bride that I would not be able to answer, but reading a new novel by Ian McEwan "Chesil Beach" where in 1963 a young, educated couple, both virgins, are sitting at dinner on the Eve of their Wedding Night in a hotel.
Paris: I am counting on you to tell me more!
NY: I shall! The author can be quite fearful. At the moment America is in full swing over 'Sexual Harassment' and the predators in our midst.
Paris: I find this alarming. A man is accused of poor behavior because he placed his hand on the knee of a colleague twenty years ago?
NY: Your flirtatious friend here is proceeding with caution.
The #MeToo Women's Movement most likely has a political tone to it, leaving some women cool about this latest uproar. It is hard enough in this technological era for people to find a suitable date, let alone a match.
Our Voices have been heard on both sides, there has been enough trumping up of this important matter in our society and cultural wars. Perhaps the implementation of a Women's Rights Agency needs to be implemented for those who have been forgotten in the fray.
Mr. Otter, a respectable married man, accepted a bear hug for his many kindnesses this year-end
Women are delicate flowers. If a behavior upsets them, it must be stopped immediately!
3
Does that make men entitled children who think they should be able to conduct themselves however they like, no matter the impact on others?
23
The best tee-shirt-ready phrase I have seen lately:
‘Yes, we are snowflakes. Winter is coming.”
If I’m a delicate flower, fsharp, it’s a rose with wickedly sharp barbs.
1
Overcorrection is seeping into fanatacism --a CNN reporter says that It's a Wonderful Life and The Producers should be "retired," as in banned. as sexist. The alleged new rules at MSNBC are unconstitutional.
Regulating how long and how adult professionals can hug, mandatory snitching on an office romance, acute oversight of language and jokes are attacks on liberal democracy.
Big Brother, State control of conversation, talk, use of words, behavior-- is no longer chilling fiction -- it's here, for a "good cause" and the "better good," as it always is. This is not feminism. It is radical feminism, and much of the "backlash" I am hearing is coming from women.
What is "safe" or objectionable for one is intrusive, stifling and unconstitutional for another. Gifting only those who feel "unsafe" full control of private and professional behavior is untenable, and this isn't just about sex, we're talking Halloween costumes, images of Puritans and Geo Wahington plaques.
20
I am a married man of character, as are the friends I surround myself with. I own/operate a restaurant, and bartend. I am privy to all sorts of conduct by both men and women, tipsy and sober, as well as internal staff interaction and with patrons. I can assure anyone out there that the harassment dynamic goes both ways equally, and the people that take it past the mutual enjoyment of flirty repartee to unwanted actions are typically not 'congruent'. I've endured the entire spectrum of unwanted physical/verbal advances from all types of women (some staff), young and older - and plenty of gay men too. We all trade in our charms, desires and intentions, and when an advance has been rebuked it changes the interpersonal dynamic - often with negative consequences. But many of these problems with dynamics are self-mediated - such is the pragmatic nature of human relations. What is being discussed in the media regarding the actions of rich, powerful men toward slightly less rich, powerful women seems like another planet to me. Madonna famously 'worked her way' to the top of her game and has no regrets (so far!). Not sure what to say about the others who have climbed some dubious perch and then have their publicists cry pious, self-righteous 'foul' from their mansions. At the end of the day, we're all responsible for the way we allow people to treat us - it's called self-respect. And we all have to look out for each other and support each other when we have legitimate issues.
27
The contention that "the harassment dynamic goes both ways equally" is obviously and statistically incorrect. If this "married man of character" is witnessing this behavior in his restaurant there is likely an atmosphere that allows for, even encourages it. If his kitchen is at all typical, it is one where women have to show they can play like the boys to have a job and NOT get labelled touchy or cold. Is there an HR department where employees can bring concerns anonymously? Is there a sexual harassment policy? If not, this "man of character" is less upstanding than he purports.
Further, the idea that we are all responsible for the way people treat us may be true, but it is naive and proof that men like him aren't paying attention. We cannot control others' actions. Yes, we can protect our psyches, but the fact that thousands of women of self-respect AND wealth/power are describing publicly the ways in which they have had to endure harassment and abuse to do anything from assemble cars to star in Hollywood movies shows we have an institutionalized structure that gives the powerful (aka the "boss") the ability to do whatever he wants.
Also, since when does "working one's way to the top" mean something sexual? Work is work. If the "work" Madonna did included sex, it may not have been consensual let alone enjoyable. Since forever, women have had to trade sex for survival. That's why it's called the Sex Trade. Nevertheless it is still work.
1
hang on. first, I appreciate the effort, but it's flawed. For example, is a compliment harassment? "You look nice today" but "you look hot" might not be.
Offense is arbitrary.
Second, did you ask women the same questions and see what they said?
Finally comparing the private sector to federal employees is not dispositive. Government workers are specialized. They are trained about harassment and can be disciplined as part of agency policy. Not every employer makes the policy clear.
The standard for everyone is to be professional at work. While you're on the payroll, you are responsible for your own behavior.
7
This NY Times article is a perfect example of "group think."
One takes surveys. How does the average person feel? Is this a problem for society as a whole?
Forgotten is the fact that in a democracy differences of opinion should be encouraged.
For example, should personnel departments exercise extra efforts in attracting women to fields which they decide have too few women? How are these fields selected?
Why exactly must Deans at universities keep figures on how many women are in each department, while garbage companies don't seem to care that all their employees are men?
Why the focus on men earning more on the average than women and not on men be more likely to wind up in jail when they fail at their careers. The rate of incarceration in the US is 14 times as high as in Japan? Is it that American men are 14 times as bad?
The focus on creating jobs only for women also distorts our priorities. During Obama's ARRA response to the Great Recession, the emphasis was on providing more welfare funding for women with children, not on infrastructure jobs needed to build bridges that would be filled mostly by men.
China has put its men to work. That's why it now has high speed rail connecting all of its major cities, skyscrapers in Pudong that dwarf the Manhattan skyline, a rover on the moon.
Liberals seem to hate men. They hold them up for shaming based only on accusations. It is certainly false to assert that women never lie.
It is time for men to defend themselves.
7
I suspect many readers think this survey focuses on a workplace like theirs, but it says "representative of the spectrum of men and workplaces." Only 30% of american workers are college grads so, if representative, this survey is largely focused on men that didn't graduate from college. It would be nice if they tried to break it down by education, type of work etc. Otherwise it's a bit deceptive. In my 30 years as upper middle white collar finance guy in and around dozens of companies I never saw sexual harassment even once. If it happened, it would have been hidden because it would be considered creepy and gross. Not really even sexist jokes behind people's backs. So I think this is rare among college grads in corporations similar to stats in government workplaces.
1
Because you never saw it, it didn't happen? This retired white collar college grad says otherwise.
6
Your experience is atypical. Sexual harassment in "professional" settings is not at all rare. It may differ qualitatively from what one might experience in a blue collar setting but is it rare? No.
I'm going to guess you were not in a managerial role where you learned a lot about "issues" among the staff. Myself, I never cease to be amazed by the bizarre things people will do at work, even among those you expect to know better.
I question the entire methodology of this purported survey/study. There are no controls in place to determine the accuracy of responses, no working definitions of what is purportedly being studied. As a civil and criminal rights attorney, I see no legal standards being employed. Is some undefined social standard being used? If so, what is it? There's this: "there has been little research about those responsible. In a new survey, about a third of men said they had done something at work within the past year that would qualify as objectionable behavior or sexual harassment." "Objectionable behavior" and "sexual harassment" lumped together. There are very clear specific definitions of and objective standards for sexual harassment. However, none is given here. It is both a civil and a criminal offense in most jurisdictions (those committing usually only face civil penalties). However, there is no standard whatsoever for "objectionable behavior." There is good reason: it's totally subjective, based exclusively on the perceptions of whoever is experiencing it. Worse, here it is made indistinguishable from sexual harassment. Finally, if a subjective standard is to be used then when asking questions about "jokes that some might consider offensive," what is the point of asking the person who told the joke? A totally subjective standard should rest on how whoever heard it perceived it, not who said it. This entire survey is fundamentally flawed in every way, and hence entirely useless.
17
are we to adopt a social standard where the most thin-skinned among us set the bar? i, for one, hope not.
9
aside from the many design flaws, bias (no women surveyed) and ridiculously low sample size, the article biases the data by skewing it’s conclusions toward the less severe behavior which our culture has difficulty defining in terms of sexual harassment; the low numbers of more obvious lewd behavior are important to include. It does have visually appealing data results....... but as many commenters wrote, let’s get both genders, ask better questions, and perform a more robust study to further try and illuninate ACTUAL workplace culture.
7
The construct of this survey and the way the "data" are interpreted provide ample evidence of the problem we face.The Legal standard for harassment is set to differentiate inappropriate behavior from behavior that some people may find uncomfortable some or all of the time.Employees are made uncomfortable in their workplace by a myriad of factors from business decisions, judgements and stylistic differences in feedback about their performance, all the way to jokes of a sexual, political or ethnic nature.Similarly ,the way their co-workers may use language, dress or simply sit.These are all highly subjective and need to be differentiated from the more egregious examples given.If they are not, men will inevitably trivialize the whole issue to the detriment of women.
2
I would like to see safety-net affairs be banned from the workplace.
Those are the affairs where a person deliberately sets out to have an affair with someone more senior and more powerful in order to make sure their job is safe and advance their career.
That means co-workers are often saddled with someone barely competent, but absolutely nothing can be done. Because criticism will bring about the wrath of the protector.
Most places I've worked in have had at least one such relationship in place.
3
Were they hooked-up to lie detecting machines? I suspect that if a person confesses to something, that it is the selected mild version, and they probably did something even worse. So these results would be off. And, without even noting whether these people are telling the whole truth, these facts would definitely be off because I believe that there are very serious crimes happening that are really not being discussed generally in the media, and what is being labeled as sexual harassment etcetera, is the mild version of a far more serious Human Rights Violation. Such a violation that would bring-in The World Court (or another body), to monitor The Workplace, since cops are clearly not enforcing the laws reasonably.
1
“Legally, harassment is considered problematic if it is severe, like groping or offering favors for a sexual interaction[.]”
If you use this legal definition, then the survey results drop from one third of men to a mere 5% admit to engaging in an act of sexual harassment in the course of a year. That’s quite a difference.
6
The article also states: “Nearly half of women say they have experienced some form of it at work at least once in their careers.” What would that number be if you substituted “the legal definition” for the vague “some form”? And what would that number be if instead of “in their careers” you substituted “during the past year”? It is only if we do this that we will get some handle on the scope the problem if there is on at all. I’m skeptical.
3
Indeed, if you removed an entire clause from the actual legal definition, the rate would drop.
Who in their right mind would ever answer any of these questions "yes"? For the record, I have never in my life even thought about sex or anything that might be offensive to "someone else."
4
Guess I missed most of the workplace "fun." The most common type of offensive/predatory behavior I experienced was not covered by this research: Prolonged, obvious, frequent staring, to the point where the perp's bug eyes and swiveling head resemble that of an owl. Most often used by an older man vs a young woman, and not necessarily one of lesser rank. There were several creeps in high school who did this. The last guy at work who pulled this on me quit after I told him my ex-Marine husband would pound his head into the sidewalk if he knew. And later I heard the creep got dressed down good by the big boss (a woman) after he did this to yet another young woman, who reported him. That was in the late 1970s. Maybe this type of harrassment is passe; hope so.
7
Yes, unwanted, unwelcome leering and staring, thank you. It doesn't often make the lists of "harassing behavior." I realize most men will roll their eyes at this. Because they're not saying or touching anything, perhaps in their mind it is not intended to be threatening, but it is psychologically invasive and sets off my fight-or-flight response. Or, if I'm honest, my "pound their head into the sidewalk" response!
8
@ Mel ... Certainly there are places to purchase burqas throughout the USA.
The headline should read "we asked 615 men a question guaranteed to produce a misleading statistic..."
Made remarks that some might consider sexist or offensive?
Who among us hasn't made a remark that "some" might consider offensive?
I'm a woman and I still remember how the other women in the art department behaved about an editor they thought was hot. Liberal women in their thirties winking and nudging one another whenever he bent over to reach the bottom drawer. I don't think anyone in that office could have passed your test.
25
How many men are going to admit they behaved in a way that would embarrass them if it was printed on the front page of a newspaper. I'm surprised that anyone admitted to coercing someone into a sex act. Most men in white collar jobs know not to admit it in public. Perhaps the rules have changed since they have the example of the sexual predator in the White House bragging about assaulting women. I'm am sure the numbers are more than twice what is being acknowledged.
4
My father once admitted at a dinner party that he had slept with over 2000 women, and this was published by his widow. When I was ten in the early 60s, there was a framed newspaper of him on the front page of the Daily News with the headline 'The Big Bad Wolf' where he looks quite happy.
However, this does not make his eldest daughter here an expert in the serious matter of sexual harassment, and there is no need for the NYT to keep recommending these important articles on my account. My concern is focused on the 50 million displaced children wandering our planet, and learning to understand the difference between love and sex.
what is a "crude joke"? any attempt at humor that includes a reference to sex?
5
Buncha things:
1) I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE how most of the comments here are from MEN whining about "but teh MENZ! We get harassed TOO!" Okay, guys, tell me about how you have to consider how you look, EVERY TIME YOU LEAVE THE HOUSE, in order to moderate unwanted male attention. Tell me about how you watch your drink at a bar so that it doesn't get tainted or spiked. Tell me about how much money you spend for a cab to avoid walking through certain areas after dark especially if you've had a few drinks. And how you look over your shoulder when you walk home after dark, every single night. And how you know that you will be blamed if anything happens to you ANYWAY. Tell me all about that before you start whining.
2) The guys who always go on about women as "girls," who feel that it's their God-given right to comment on any woman's appearance/perceived desirability under the guise of a "compliment" even if it has nothing to do with her job performance or the context of the interaction, and expect them to be visual objects for their admiration, are almost ALWAYS the most physically loathsome specimens of the male and the ones most in need of a mirror and a proper grooming regimen.
Here's a hint guys. You want to not be accused of objectifying women, then don't do it. It's that simple. Think how YOU would feel if a guy who was bigger and burlier than you told you that you looked pretty that morning...just saying. PS see: subject: #homophobia.
72
"...are almost ALWAYS the most physically loathsome specimens of the male and the ones most in need of a mirror and a proper grooming regimen."
Pretty sure you just committed sexual harassment.
9
Nope, I wasn't commenting on their sexual aspects, just an objective observation. Sorry if I hit a nerve SM (you're a guy I assume who falls into this category).
3
That's just it - the 'guys' you're railing against aren't 'most' men. Most women - no, people - like compliments in my experience. I'm just as likely to be 'roofied' for my wallet and cellphone. I avoid dark areas myself because it's just common sense in the world we live in regardless of my sex. Since you apparently don't like compliments, dress poorly and conduct poor hygiene. That will eliminate the attention from the loathsome males you so detest - and all of the rest of us too. Problem solved!
Despite the pretensions of surveys, the current sexual harrassment brouhaha has taken on the trappings of the Spanish Inquisition. The thumbscrews will be tightened and carcasses stretched on the rack as a prerequisite for employment ... and men will be forced to confess as Jimmy Carter did - "I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times." Whoever you are, female or male, you have the right to expect me to keep my hands, mouth and opinions about sex to myslf - but you have no right to know whatever may be on my mind.
5
In a competitive environment, how can we afford to squander productivity in such a stupid way?
7
The poll did not ask an important and crucial question: What is the relationship between erectile dysfuncion and public displays of sexual behavior and interest. Guys who can't get it up often compensate for this by pretending they are studs.
8
A line from the original Broadway show, Pippin. He asked his grandmother why men always go to war. "They raise flags when they can't raise anything else." The line was cut from the revival. I guess it struck too close for comfort.
7
My experience during 40 years in corporate America is that women in positions of management are always given the benefit of the doubt in their decisions. Their male peers and subordinates are simply too afraid to challenge their decisions. Why? The men do not want to be labeled as sexist, or worse. Political correctness and constant discrimination in the workplace training and badgering by HR compels men to conform, and to forcibly embrace women who are often sub-standard managers and colleagues. And women know how to play this game to their best advantage. I've seen it many times.
22
Straying a little too far from the playing field here, aren't you? Women are "often sub-standard managers and colleagues"? Give me a break, and check your humongous sense of male privilege while you're at it.
5
I didn't see where the survey distinguished between telling an off-color joke to a close associate of the same sex, versus telling it to or around a person of the opposite sex with whom you have a casual relationship. Back when I used to tell such jokes, I only did so under the former circumstances, when we were in a place where no one else could hear. Does that count?
Meanwhile, in the older culture, a certain amount of persistence was expected while seeking a date. Where is or was the line? How many times could you ask a woman to lunch before it became harassment?
A clear set of rules would help. So would an acceptable way to ask, just once, with a clear understanding that the answer might be "no", "maybe later", or "yes". Playing coy and pushing it a bit were part of the game but they could easily cross over into harassment. The ladies have to own their half of that interaction.
3
You wonder whether telling an off-color joke to a close associate of the same sex is different. Is it misogynistic? Does it objectify women? Then it shouldn’t be told at all. Would it be OK to tell a racist joke about, say, black people if you are white and tell it to a close associate who is white? If the joke is in bad taste, you might offend someone who is more sensitive to anything that does not refer to other people with the dignity they deserve.
4
We need a better definition for workplace conduct. In baseball the margin between a ball and a strike is razor thin. We do not ask the batter to call balls and strikes. We have often seen the batter disagree with the umpire. We have also seen the instant slow motion replay with the strike zone superimposed on the screen. Sometimes the umpire is wrong. Unlike baseball's strike zone, the zone of inappropriate behavior is elastic, depending on the sensitivities of each person. If we draw the zone of inappropriate behavior to satisfy the most sensitive person, we restrict much of the interpersonal banter that fills the workspace.
5
Maybe so, but as a lifelong woman in the workplace, I can tell you that one man's "banter" is another woman's discomfort/harassment. How can you possibly begin to know what it's like to worry every day what might happen out on the street, the subway, the store, the office; to have a random comment interpreted as a sexual come-on?
2
@ Annie Chestnut ... Such worry must be so debilitating as to demand psychotherapy rather then social engineering.
Some of these comments are even more depressing than the story. I think of the blank faces of my male colleagues when told about the problem, and just feel hopeless.
49
Speaking as a retired therapist, I can attest to how traumatic it can be for a woman who dreads going to the job she needs - due to unwanted and abhorrent male behavior.
Speaking a wife of more than 50 years, I can attest to how even my own husband at times lacks the discretion and astuteness to realize that certain comments would be very upsetting to his wife - even in the privacy of our home.
We women need to speak up. Even at home. Even to men who assume they are (and mostly are) paragons of virtue. It’s got to be “no tolerance” - even at home. How else will they learn?
24
When the #metoo stories started to fill up the news, and the wider societal debate on workplace behavior kicked off, I noticed some men AND women on Twitter getting very defensive about the fact that they met their significant others at work. I always thought it was a little inappropriate to ask coworkers out on dates, but I realize that it is quite common. If an advance is accepted and two coworkers become a couple, people seem to think it's OK -- although some companies still forbid this. If someone, male or female (I have seen this happen with both), asks a coworker out on a date and is rejected, then you have a problem -- tension, anger, outrage, repulsion, whatever. I think that companies of all sizes and in all industries will have to develop policies very carefully and figure out how to enforce them.
2
“Even milder forms of harassment can be extremely damaging if they happen frequently and continue over time.” This is what many people who have not been harassed do not understand at all. I can cite something that was not sexual harassment but was, over time, very stressful for a great many of us at a company. Worst of all, the company did absolutely nothing about it while chastising other employees for behavior that was far less troublesome.
We had an employee whom we had to work with on many issues who was very religious. He was also very outspoken in a way that was extremely judgmental and hurtful to morale and to our willingness to work with him. He posted religious items in his cubicle. He was very anti-abortion and had hung posters with screeds against it that had fetuses pictured on them. This offended a number of the women and we did complain. Nothing was done. Yet if we came into work in jeans on a snowy day we were told it was against the rules. We ignored it because we didn't want to ruin good work clothes. Yet the company's priority was not our comfort in the workplace when it came to what this man posted. It was more important to remind us not to wear jeans on days when the weather was horrible and our coming in was something of a miracle. This same man tried to convert us to his religion despite our telling him to leave us alone. Again we complained. Nothing was done. And this is typical of most companies.
11
Contrary to the tone of many of these comments, I would say this survey shows that most men behave very well, which has been my life's experience.
A full 32 years ago I hired a woman to work with me based on what I thought was her ability. Soon after hiring her, I realized I had made a big mistake. Instead of letting her go, I put up with her poor attittude and performance for the period I needed her and then did not hire her again.
To my utter amazement, this person afterwards commented to an associate that there had been 'sexual innuendos' in our conversations. Not only had there not been ANY sexual innuendos, but I didn't even find this woman attractive, externally or internally, yet I always treated her as a gentleman. Based on this, and other such experiences, I take some accusations with at least some disbelief (e.g. the Rolling Stone article being a great example).
On the lower end of these transgressions, I would like to point out that many women have told me that their private sexual talk amongst themselves is far more graphic and carnal then similar conversations among men. Men's conversations generally do not include overt references to women's anatomies other than basics; I've heard, repeatedly, the opposite is true with women.
So, who is objectifying whom?
34
"Men's conversations generally do not include overt references to women's anatomies other than basics; I've heard, repeatedly, the opposite is true with women. So, who is objectifying whom?"
As a man I completely disagree. Unless you've lived under a rock, men definitely talk about women's body parts amongst other men in a sexual way. Look no further then what Trump said during the Access Hollywood interview.
Also I'm not sure what you mean about "other than the basics." There are not that many body parts to talk about. If you meant to the degree of specificity and graphic nature when talking about those body parts, men are just as graphic and probably more aggressive about what they would like to do with those body parts. The state of Maine is not an exception to this as I have male relatives who live there and you should hear how they talk about women's body parts.
Lastly, there is a big difference between objectifying a specific gender amongst like genders, than a specific gender sexually harassing the other gender. Don't confuse the two.
2
Every time the subject of sexual harassment comes around, we get to hear this story. Male manager, nice guy, gives a woman a chance. Not only does she lack the ability to do the job but, upon realizing she was going to be fired, she charges sexual harassment. Can you hear my eyes roll?
Data is not the plural of anecdote. This is the problem with attempts to codify and understand the breadth of width of sexual harassment, which often happens in limited groups with few witnesses, many complicit. I have no doubt you believe your side of the story. I also have no doubt that, since then, you haven't made the mistake of hiring a woman again.
5
There is a culture of harassment issue that is somehow not developed in the questions and analysis. When someone tells an offensive joke they are participating in and creating a culture of harassment. If it is treated as legitimate through silence or laughing along, it does not matter if someone who finds it offensive is there to hear it. A culture without sexual harassment (and discrimination or harassment of any kind) can't have a group of "insiders" telling offensive jokes to other insiders and think that it does not leak out---their jokes, their belief that what they say is legitimate or okay is part of the ether. A question, then, is when you hear someone else tell those jokes, use offensive language, interact, look at people in a certain way, do you speak out?...even if the person who would be offended is not there. This is the piece we all need to understand--no matter our identities. Having a culture that is safe and respectful is not obstructing your rights. It's making everyone freer and safer.
4
If we could only agree on what's offensive I'd say you have a point. Some people like a little 'saltiness' in life - others blush at anything remotely off-side. Truth is I don't think I'd want to live in your world where conversation is reduced to the banal and safe, just so a bystander may or not be offended...
3
banal is not what I said. respectful and safe does not mean that people can't have fun. maybe the effort to agree on what's offensive would be worthwhile? meanwhile, some behavior is actually illegal. the point is that bystanders have a lot of power to say that's not okay when they are standing in a room--or maybe just alone with--coworkers who think something is funny that's offensive. why does it hurt us to be a little more respectful. you are assuming a prudishness here that is not what i said. think of the world you'd like your daughter or wife or sister or another woman close to you to live and work and have fun in. safety does not mean there's a lack of humor or joy or fun.
2
“Made remarks that some might consider sexist or offensive?”
What in the world does “some might consider” mean?
If someone is talking about the royal wedding, a person easily could find the celebration of glitzy heterosexuality very sexist and offensive.
What if someone in the same conversation talks about a gay love affair. Clearly any number of people might consider that offensive,
What if someone is talking about a bake sale at their church and someone else responds about a bake sale at their favorite s&m club. Is one considered sexist harassment and the other okay. Obviously it is the spirit as well as the substance of what is said that matters.
15
Anything special for sale at a s&m bake sale that I couldn’t find at the church’s? Then what’s the point? Worship is all the same anyway.
“What if someone in the same conversation talks about a gay love affair. Clearly any number of people might consider that offensive.”
What? Why, Robert? Because you do? How could anyone be offended hearing about two people who love each other? Please explain.
1
Dear Passion for Peaches,
I wasn't speaking about what might disturb me. I was talking about different things that people could find disturbing, sexist or offensive. Not that they would be right to respond that way. As for me I might be disturbed by the heterosexual assumptions and celebrations of wealth and power in talk about the royal wedding. But like you say hearing about people who love each other might-- even with all that-- bring a tear to my eye.
"Those who said they never...socialize with colleagues outside of work were also significantly less likely to acknowledge (harassment)." Of course. Better to keep your head down, do your job and avoid any and all "informal" contact. Only way to be completely sure you won't be accused of harassment.
8
It's also the only way to avoid more harassment if you are a woman. I've found that office parties are often venues for sexual harassment and other types of regrettable behavior on the part of managers and the people under them. As a woman and as an employee I do not like office parties very much. There are too many opportunities for bad thing to happen on both sides. The gossip that goes on during and after these events can destroy a career.
6
Yup, that is one way to avoid harassment! Or at least it has been effective for me: in my decades-long professional life, I have never been harassed and I have never been accused of harassment. I deliberately maintain what some might describe as a cold personality in professional settings, and I never date or participate in any social events with colleagues or clients. I seek out work situations in which my colleagues and clients have a similar mindset; by default these people have most often been women. I have no doubt that my attitude curtailed opportunities on the way up, but it can work.
1
Not sure what I am to take from this.
Some nontrivial percentage of men engage in behavior they know is wrong while they are doing it.
Some unknown percentage of men engage in such behavior and do not acknowledge it is wrong, or even that it happened.
The unknown percentage includes the interesting cases, i.e. all the academics who stopped taking me seriously when I got pregnant during grad school. They were still nice and polite, but they stopped seeing me as a potential colleague, which kinda insured I would never become one.
6
For about 3 years in the late 70s – early 80s I worked at a small design firm that was almost all gay men. No women. I was in my early 20s…open minded, good looking and definitely straight. All of the items in the “blue” category of this survey were regular inclusions over the regular course of occasional office chatter…especially on Fridays or Mondays if the boss was not in the room to tell us to shut up and get back to work. I actually learned a lot about my gay co-workers varied lifestyles, hang-outs, dating conundrums and sexual preferences from those sessions and had my first frank discussion with one whom I was pretty close to over AIDS…the very day that we both read the same article on the subject in The Village Voice in 1981. It was his first reading on a disease that ultimately took his life 25 years later. I enjoyed these guys and really liked the overall vibe.
That said…I NEVER experienced anything even remotely like the rest of the items on this survey list while at that job…even though I occasionally had, in other settings dating back to when I was 13. At that job, I never felt the least bit “harassed”, although in retrospect I guess I might have if I was a very sexually insecure or conservatively religious person…the sort that often gets labeled “homophobic” these days.
6
I had nearly the same experience. But because I had lunch and regularly chatted with the gay men I worked with, and made a conscious effort not to have the same sort of conversations with women so as not to be accused of harassment, I was labeled as "gay" by the straight women. And not in a nice way. It was if they resented that I was not bawdy with them. No win situation.
3
Gee whiz, shouldn't many of the offenses read X "... in the presence of a female?" because half of the men might assume so, the other not. I guess my question is moot if you want to just blanket eradicate locker room talk or vulgarity in general, but I doubt that is the mission.
I had a female colleague who felt left out because she thought we were excluding her from the dirty jokes. I guess she imagined that when it was just a bunch of guys in the room, we whiled away the time telling raunchy stories. She thought we were sanitizing our speech on her account; we weren't, we were just doing our jobs. Her imagination convinced her to believe she was being excluded when she wasn't. There is no winning.
9
Total eye roll. Self-reporting? And what's with the comments about female harassers? I am not saying it never happens, but, pretty much, yeah, it never happens. It's also important to distinguish between racy banter and off-color exchanges when both sides are laughing and the kind of creepy leering and intimidation that constitute actual harassment. This entire #metoo phenomenon is at the edge of a very slippery slope. There is no question that a guy who masturbates into a plant right in front of an underling who he lured to the basement is just sick. A racy joke or uncensored comment is not, although that type of conversation may not be appropriate for the workplace. Policing speech is very problematic. All of this focus on sexual behavior, moreover, is serving to obscure the much more common forms of discrimination that most women face on the job, that is, having their ideas dismissed or coopted and not being given credit for the work they do.
6
Did the study try to determine how much of the harassment was serial? Let's assume a 200-person workplace composed equally of males and females, and let's only consider the two-worst kinds of harassments mentioned: stroking and sexual coercion. If three percent of the men are engaged in such activities, and each of the men harasses five different women, then fully 15% of the female work force has suffered from these two highly corrosive acts.
2
"at a minimum, one in 25 men in the average American workplace identifies himself as a harasser"
That is an irresponsible statement. The study says nothing of the sort. Assuming for a moment that it is statistically correct simply to add the 19% for jokes and 16% for remarks (and there is no overlap), how do you possibly conclude that one in appropriate remark "in the last year" (which was part of the question) constitutes harassment? The report itself says that this type of behavior is not legally the standard, but could be "psychologically" damaging if repeated. However, the study did not not even ask whether anyone was present "whom might consider the [joke/story/remark] sexist." Moreover, the study simply asks whether the action occurred within the last year. So, how much of your 19% figure was one guy telling another guy a dirty joke behind close doors, ONCE, in a year? And you're now going to claim that this suggests 25% of men are sexual harassers?
This, as I said is irresponsible. There are serious allegations against men like Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer and others, which suggest disgusting behaviors. But, to inflame the situation by claiming that 25% of men are in the same bucket is, as I said, irresponsible.
Maybe you had a less irresponsible statement later in the article. But I stopped reading there. I've wasted enough of my life listening to editorial boards on both sides of the political aisle misuse statistics to try to bolster falsehoods.
11
Exactly as you described:
It was the first day of class. The professor walked to the podium and said, There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, and statistics. We are here to study the third kind of lie.
2
I can only second that statement. There's no denying there is rampant sexual harassment, but faulty statistics do not help towards a discussion or solution.
I also love how 121% "of men who say they engaged in one of these behaviors" have an opinion of Trump
1
1 in 25 is 4%.
Those opinions of Trump are not additive. They're each a percentage of men who've done something within four separate groups.
I have never seen so much denial in an NYT comment thread in my life.
2
Barack and Michele Obama met at work. Michele was an attorney at Sidley Austin and Barack was a summer associate from Harvard Law School. Michele was assigned to be his mentor that summer.
According to Michele: "Barack, about a month in, asked me out, and I thought 'No way. This is completely tacky,'"
Only after Barack CONTINUED to ask her out did she "relent" (this the word she used)
Where is the line between persistence and harassment?
94
Precisely.
When off color jokes constitute sexual harassment, when asking someone out more than once is sexual harassment, it's time to take "Family Guy", "The Simpsons" and "Game of Thrones" off the air, put an end to the majority of standup routines and put trigger alerts on the covers of novels.
Having been in a sorority and worked in all-women offices I can affirm they can be just as raunchy as the men I worked with in the lab.
2
My mother was my father's secretary. He hired her to work for him. Eventually they began dating, married, and had a family. She continued to work in his office part time.
My father was a gentleman. The attraction between my parents was mutual and consensual. Obviously, there was no quid pro quo pressure from my father to my mother.
The "line between persistence and harassment" is consent.
Barack Obama is a gentleman. There was no quid pro quo pressure from Barack over Michelle. In fact, Barack was Michelle's subordinate. She was at no professional risk to turn him down. Both of them have spoke openly about how they met and how their relationship developed, and neither felt there was any harassment. Persistence but not harassment.
5
But he was also involved with another woman durning and after the time when he began courting his future wife. He repeatedly lied to her and concealed that relationship from her, including sex.
So he was not a gentleman. He wasn’t different from many people. But he was no gentleman.
2
Your survey fails to ask important questions about the other side of the coin: Women exploiting their sexuality to advance in the work place or get better grades in school. I can fill a whole NYT page with stories of events where students/subordinates flirted (and rebuffed) in order to gain an advantage.
There are pigs of course, but most men -at least in my line of work- would not make advances towards a woman who acts professionally, and dresses appropriately. Now if a man can see a woman's nipple or private parts, in a place of work... how is this supposed to be interpreted exactly?
4
Flirting
Beginning of Time - 2017
R.I.P
5
You know what? in the workplace I am okay with that.
5
When will the NYT do a survey of women behavior in the workplace? Men are also victims of sexual harrassment as well as false claims. I have seen careers ruined and companies lose time and money defending against idiotic and palpably false accusations. There is a kind of “sexual McCarthyism” atmosphere ripe for anyone that wants to game the system. Men that are victims seldom come forward our of fear of being ridiculed. It’s a thing.
7
Excellent deep probing reporting. So you spoke with 615 guys, that's great. Did you speak with the 1,000 guys who locked themselves in the few remaining "MENS'" room, when they were descended on by female reporters armed with note pads and pics?
4
A survey? And... considering the timing and national moodiness all of the participants were completely candid. Like standing out on the street during the McCarthy era with a mic and television camera and asking passersby if they are communists.
A fella named Groucho Marx used to ask his male talk show guests if they had stopped beating their wives. That's how you conduct a survey.
With this whole thing I have yet to see an effort to cover all perspectives. All the angles, 100% percent screened. Considering how far women have come in the equal rights (et al) movement you gotta eventually turn over the rock that shows the rest of the picture. Not all of them are Bambi the baby deer or such pure-n-chaste church mice. Otherwise it's not an objective assessment; it becomes an easy-to-spot agenda.
Having worked in market research for a number of years my guess is that most of the fellas who did stuff lied about it (duh?) to the survey. But even more interestingly: about 15% of the respondents who admitted in the survey to questionable behaviour hadn't actually done any of it but were saying they had thinking they are helping to help grease the bandwagons' axles.. and someday to arrive in the unmarked manila envelope would be all-access tickets to the opera. A reward for the discrete contribution to the cause.
5
Nothing about assault or rape. Why leave the worst out? It happens.
2
Whenever I felt the strange urge to visit a site that devoted itself exclusively to the castration of all those horrible, horrible men, I used to have to go to the Huffington Post; now I never have to leave the Times. It's one-stop-shopping!
12
Since switching careers in 1996 into IT, every large corporation has had some type of "Diversity" or "Inclusion" class that was mandatory. So this is not a new issue, but an ongoing pattern of behavior. In my first career I dated someone at work, no one knew, when we announced our engagement, people thought we were kidding. I married this woman because we got pregnant. Never a reason to marry someone you didn't even know a year. Since then I NEVER dated anyone from the office, once was enough.
1
The US Military has been in the forefront of trying to prevent sexual harassment. The Army's program is called SHARP (see http://www.soc.mil/SWCS/sharp/pdf/SHARP-Guidebook.pdf) this stands for "Sexual .Harassment/Assault Response Prevention".
I am told the following that new recruits, many of whom are just out of high school, are instructed in this program. A male who has been reported for a violation has been "sharped", to use their term. All reports are investigated and can result in severe punishment but may just result in not being able to be transferred to a new assignment for a long time even if cleared.
It is rumored among recruits that there is a number of false accusations. Therefore recruits in basic training and advance individual training males avoid interaction with females as much as possible and do not talk to them except when necessary to avoid being "sharped". Perhaps this attitude lessens as their time in service increases.
While on the surface SHARP appears to be a necessary program it may have resulted in unintended results reducing mission effectiveness. Will the same thing happen the civilian workplace?
3
This must be the biggest joke around the military. I personally know of several cases where the top General at the base McPherson and Benning had mistresses that then became problems. The one at McPherson was having Ana affair with a young married engineer a civilian. The solution was to push her off to another agency. We got a great reference on her. She sat at a desk and did nothing. Then I get a call one day, from Ft. McPherson can I get their Govt. Visa/ Master Card back from her. It is being used at a Hotel near the base. I said what. I said why don’t you just cancel it. Answer because she is meeting the General. I asked an employee who had contacts and knew everything he came back and confirmed. We had been duped. She and the General were having and affair. I went up to her and said I just got a call Ft. Mac wants their card back. She walked out and never came back. I sent her a job abandonment letter. She left her husband the General left his wife.
Then we have Rita. Was the General at Ft. Bennings Secretary. When that became a problem they sent her out for training. A 4 year degree. During which the affair continued. Then she came back for two year. They sent her out for more training, a Masters degree back for 2 years still a problem, then they sent her out for the eqyuvaoent of a mail order PHD, came back for two year. She was never at one job more than two years. They always moved her. She snuck her name on other people’s work. She got away with it
While the incidents described may be of a superior taking advantage they appear to be consentual and not likely a violation of SHARP. Adultery is a crime in the UCMJ but is rarely prosecuted in the military unless it is accompanied by other more serious crimes. Flag officers have their own section of investigators separate from the normal CID and NCIS. General and admirals are rarely charged under the UCMJ but are allowed to quietly retire.
Sorry, bad job. While the study attempts to adjust for the difficulty in selecting a representative sample, the attempt is not successful. By definition, a sample like this is self selected. People who do not trust guarantees of anonymity are not represented. People who are uncomfortable talking about their behavior are underrepresented. People who like talking or bragging about themselves are overrepresented. The fact that this is a “hot” and somewhat controversial topic affects responder’s self assessments (in several directions). The results can be interpreted as revealing a huge problem, or a trivial problem. Aside from all that, it’s a pretty transparent attempt to jump on the bandwagon to demonstrate and reinforce The Times’ “cred” on issues of gender.
7
"Continued to ask someone for dates, drinks or dinner even though he or she said no?"
This one's a bit weird. How many attempts constitutes "continued"?! One or a hundred? And how did she respond? Did she firmly state "No, and please don't ask me in the future", or "Noooo... I don't think so today..." while she twirls her hair?
I think this category requires a bit more nuance, because there's big a difference between harassment and courtship, and human behaviour cannot always be quantified in a check box.
I realize this is anecdotal, but I've known happy couples who are only together because after initially failing to win over a woman, a man simply didn't give up.
And if you were to poll those women today, and ask if they're happy their partners didn't give up, I almost sure they'd tell you they were.
29
No means no.
4
How about you listen to what women say, instead of believing you can mind- and body-read them as saying the opposite? If women are so inclined as to flirt with you, I guarantee they can do it without lying to you about whether they want to date you or not.
When I say no, I mean no.
If you ask me tomorrow, the answer is still NO.
If I smile when I say it, I'm trying not to be RUDE, while still TELLING YOU DIRECTLY that my answer is NO.
When was the last time you were asked a question by someone, answered, and then had them ask the same question again later? Annoying, much? You didn't have the urge to say, "I told you this last week" and "Please stop asking me the same question over and over"?
3
I don't understand how so many men (and, sure, a few women) can fail to understand the basic rules of workplace relationships. Number one, friendship is OK or even to be encouraged. I have work friends who've made my career and life in general far better than it otherwise would be. Number two, anything beyond friendship is NOT OK. Period. Too many things could go wrong, even if it was an entirely consensual relationship between workplace peers. Add any sort of power dynamic and you're courting total disaster. The intelligent person simply avoids this scenario entirely. Come on, people, there are millions of non-coworkers around to date - choose one of them instead!
6
I'm treating all women in my office as if they have the flu. Stay well away. Also treat them as if they were religious ladies in a convent. No stories or jokes that could be in the least risque. There are many other women in my life that I treat normally but since the Times and others have declared this is the season to kill men's careers, it pays to be super cautious at least until this nonsense trend passes.
Men have had to deal with much worse than this, so we will survive, however working women do not benefit from being treated as if they are a combination of typhoid Mary and a delicate flower.
25
Asher, have you tried treating the women in your office with friendly respect? It works wonders on the job!
12
@Asher: This is not a "nonsense trend" - you better re-train yourself for a change in the culture of the workplace.
"Men have had to deal with much worse than this"?? Nope! Go take your pity party elsewhere. It is WOMEN who deal with this and much worse every.single.day.
You're simply out-to-lunch on this topic, and you will be left in the dust if you can't adjust your attitude. The reality is that women constitute MORE THAN half the population of this planet, and every one of them is as valuable as any man. Get used to it.
1
This story uses an overly broad definition of sexual harassment. The two largest categories of "offensive" behavior were telling stories or jokes that some might consider offensive and making remarks that some might consider sexist. But neither of these amounts to harassment if the person to whom the stories/jokes were told was not being harassed because of his/her gender. Based on my own experience, the overwhelming number of "potentially offensive" stories and jokes are told to someone - usually another man - who does not find them offensive.
We spend most of our adult lives at work. Our coworkers are our friends. Women have just as many "potentially offensive" conversations at work as men do - I overhear them everyday in the hallway. Suggesting that such private conversations are equivalent or even remotely comparable to actual harassment (i.e., demanding sex for work) is ludicrous and counterproductive.
8
The problem is that harassment is a moving bar. Real life scenario. Each of us, male and female, purchase gifts for our assistants (all female) during the holidays. One year, we decided to treat all the assistants the same by buying each of them gift cards for a mani/pedi at a spa. 4 of the 5 assistants loved the gift, with my assistant even hugging me. My coworkers assistant, however, complained to hr that he was harassing her by implying that her nails were gross and she wasn't pretty enough. This resulted in all of us being called into HR. Thankfully, the HR person was level headed. Sad for me, since they switched that assistant to me. I avoided her like the plague, only communicating by email.
So was my story sexist? Was giving a gift card to a spa sexist?
A simple compliment or gift could be considered sexist or harassment depending on how it is received.
16
Giving a gift card to a spa isn't inherently sexist as long as you've observed that the recipient enjoys getting her nails done. It would be a weird gift to someone who doesn't wear polish or who does her own nails.
Hint: the best gift to an employee is cash in a beautiful card with a note of appreciation.
4
PS your assistant acted abominably. I think she harassed you.
1
That was a ridiculously sexist gift!
After reading the comments it seems that many men want to conflate true harassment with being guilty of telling an off color joke or being penalized for asking someone out at work just once. Men, women know the difference between harassing behavior and normal social interaction. In a social interaction, you ask and someone answers, you listen to the answer AND ACT ACCORDINGLY. Harassment begins when the answer is discounted, belittled, ignored and repeated attempts are made. Harassment makes someone feel uncomfortable and for the most part the harasser knows this and continues anyway. Women let slide all kinds of bad behavior and for the most part only report when it is pretty egregious, otherwise why bother.
I've brushed off clumsy attempts asking me out at work and have always been very nice to the person. Never once did I consider it harassment. The key here is that once I said no, attempts were not repeated. It is after all, work.
6
Congratulations on one of the most confusing and inefficient graphical presentations of data that I have ever seen. Especially a nuisance to those scrolling online.
16
Telling off-color jokes is a method of testing the water. Depending on the reaction received, the commenter can gauge the potential reception to escalating behavior, in an effort to see just how far one can go, or get away with. Its almost like fishing: such comments are like putting many lines in the water, hoping for a bite.
1
If you believe that these behaviors are forms of discrimination- treating equals as lesser beings- an omission in the spectrum of behavior examined is exclusion; This is perhaps why you find that more educated white collar workers do not admit more often to harassment. In their minds, harassment doesn't mean setting up hurdles by excluding or ostracizing colleagues in ways that are 'crazy making', make for an inhospitable workplace and fall under the harassment radar.
Back in J-school, we called this "burying the lead." Here's what you'll find toward the bottom: "Workplace harassment may be decreasing. In surveys of federal government employees, the percentage of women who said they had experienced one of eight harassing behaviors in the last two years was 18 percent, less than half the percentage it was in 1994."
So 25% do, 75% don't, or say they don't. It's time to say, "Let's hear it for the 75%!"
1
The first three categories are none starters and should not be considered. People are human, not PC automatons. The rest would qualify, with the scale going to abhorrent.
10
Face it folks, sexual harassment is a global epidemic - period. Males generally have no or a very limited understanding of the issues, have been raised and dealt with by the world very differently for their entire lives, and generally don't perceive either their own or their male colleagues behavior as a "big deal" because "everyone has always done it".
Women, globally, are raised as less desirable offspring, second class citizens and unpaid domestic servants. As just one example, infanticide is much more likely to be committed against female babies rather than males.
In America, women didn't even have the right to vote 'til about 100 yrs. ago, and were not specifically included in our Constitution. We had to pass the Bill of Rights in order to be "included".
We have only just begun to scratch the surface of this issue, and what follows is going to constitute a tectonic shift in cultural attitudes if it is allowed to proceed with honesty, integrity and transparency. That is a big "if" when one considers the economic and power gain/loss implications.
8
As a high school teacher who has recently become co-chair of a committee addressing sexual harassment at school, I would be interested in seeing a comparable study done with a representative sample of teenagers, faculty and administration. One huge lacuna I see in this article has to do with a behavior anyone who spends much time in high school hallways will observe, and that is physical intimidation - crowding women's personal or work space in a way that can demonstrate anything from general obliviousness to a veiled threat of violence. Boys breathing down girls' necks as they stand by their lockers would be comparable to some of my former male coworkers' tendencies, before I became a teacher. to sit right on my desk without asking permission when coming in to make a request or comment. This was much more upsetting to me - and, occasionally, to the carefully-sorted pile of papers on the edge of my desk - than the odd off-color joke. It demonstrates an unconscious lack of respect and sense of ownership over me that to this day makes me bristle. Simple rule: If you wouldn't do it or say it to a man, don't do it or say it to a woman - but just because you WOULD say it to a man, that doesn't mean it's appropriate in all circumstances.
4
It's Interesting that there was some correlation to approving DJT and admitting the behavior. It would also be interesting to determine if the person who admits to them approves of them or thinks they are no big deal and where that falls out re each behavior and the various demographics. This would apply to women as well as men both as victims and perpetrators
Another interesting study might include circumstances of some of the behaviors. Most behaviors don't occur in isolation or randomly. For example, was it a social gathering at work; was it a holiday or celebration; who else was in the room; were others also doing the same thing; did the person feel "invited" initially (why); did they misread a cue?
If this data could be generalized, there doesn't seem to be that much misbehavior that would be considered serious. Is it possible that we have been a little over-conditioned to be "sensitive"? How do we determine if a victim was really hurt by something or thinks she should have been, and to what degree was she hurt? How do we teach people to deal effectively with hurt? How do we go after the serious stuff in an effective/appropriate way without throwing everyone into the same basket? How do we distinguish normal interplay between the sexes from that which isn't?
Finally, It appears that training programs/awareness, which began in the 90's, have had some positive effect given that the number, at least in the one field that was surveyed, was cut in half.
2
This survey makes no sense.
If person A tells person B an off-color joke they both find funny, that some random other person might find offensive, how is that harassment? Who are they harassing?
17
Talbot-
Yes. A and B are creating a hostile work environment for C.
Harassment isn't about intent, it's about perception.
If persons A and B are men discussing sexual exploits at work and person C is a woman offended by it that can be harassment. Are there a multitude of variables involved? Yes. Can it be harassment? Indeed.
2
I was shocked when I first saw the overall figure, and then I saw what you were talking about. Sexual stories or jokes that some might consider offensive?" Many of the *women* I knew at work made sexual jokes that some might consider offensive, to the extent that I can't give an example here. You are getting into deep prig territory.
The real harassment is towards then end of the list, e.g., unwanted touch and sexual coercion, and then the numbers are, thankfully, fairly low.
This isn't 1850 anymore and neither men nor women act like they're in Sunday school. It does no one a service to call everything from ribald jokes to persistent dating sexual harassment.
21
I think the researchers are deliberately increasing the incidence level by lumping telling a possibly risque joke with sexual coercion. In the workplace people sometimes tell jokes that a few may find offensive. Did the researchers give examples of jokes? Did they give examples of all the behaviors surveyed? Did they recognize that if someone cracks a joke in a meeting (a clean one) that not everyone will find it funny?
The movie Love Actually contains lots of scenes of sexual relationships at work. Is that movie offensive? Should we prohibit men from asking out a woman again who says no the first time?
And I would also suggest that the authors -- for the sake of being scientific instead of pushing a political agenda -- survey women. I've been told off color jokes by women, engaged by them in talk about men's sexual preferences, told what turns them on, asked to touch body parts, have had direct references made re my genitalia, been brushed up against in suggestive ways and propositioned. I've had women tell me who they thought the hottest guys in the office were.
So, before I get excited about this type of survey, I'd want to ensure a random sample was used, clear behavior examples provided (i.e. what kind of joke was told -- or at the very least have the respondents provide a description). And women surveyed as well ---& asked if they have flirted with a boss or co-worker for professional advantage or because the guy was "cute."
29
This study is not treated as definitive; it is clearly a first serious look at part of the gender in the workplace that has received little attention. So don't get all worked up about it. Men should be relieved that there is some interest in our experience. There is a lot more to investigate.
I find you list of behaviors by women to be interesting. I have experienced many of them, some in the past year. These are clearly the type of behaviors women are identifying as harassment. Why is it not a problem that women are doing them too? Why do women engage in this behavior? How does it affect men in and outside the work place?
In the mid-1990s, I was asked by a Gender in the Workplace Committee (GWC) to help develop and analyze a survey of all employees. There were lots of issues, which is why the GWC was formed, and they did a lot of good work. In analyzing the survey, I was surprised that many women, particularly support staff, were concerned that the effect of the GWC's efforts was to make their job less fun and more sterile. The GWC was not having much effect on the major offenders, but the "nice" guys were not interacting with these women out of fear that they might be offensive.
My point is that there are two genders in the workplace, and that normal human beings talk and joke about sex. This is not the responsibility of just one gender and a solution to problem behavior will not be found by those who believe that it is.
1
Here is a question not asked that I suspect would generate a higher proportion of affirmative responses.
"Have you been in a position to observe demeaning or inappropriate behavior towards a woman or women and remained silent on the matter whether it made you personally uncomfortable or not?"
I suspect that many of us have witnessed such behavior and not called it out. Sometimes the situation is complicated by the workplace hierarchy and sometimes not. It is usually easier just to ignore the offense as sufficiently mild or having no lasting impact beyond the moment. I submit that such tacit approval (or tacit disapproval) contributes to the problem.
6
I hope at least some of your readers will see through the contradiction: the problem is either as old as society itself, or Trump is to blame.
3
2% admitted to sexual coercion. Faults with this survey notwithstanding, how many of that 2% were in positions of power? What percentage of our working population is in positions of power? Power seems to bring with it a sense of entitlement.
5
As to the dirty jokes and the dirty materials, a lot of women in offices will participate in this, I suppose because they also are playing power games with weak and undefended employees. You touched on the overall environment, but commenting on someone's appearance, or the old thing of rating women one to ten, done in gossip groups rather than directly towards the target, gets into the environment nonetheless and causes the target to feel under fire at all times.
2
I work mostly with women, and I tell you, I speak up every time they give one of our two men any kind of lip about beards, haircuts, shirt styles, etc. I am a woman and we need to remove all this nonsense and get on with work.
7
Self-disclosure requires self-awareness.
If you make it through several years of work without saying something, anything, that could be found offensive you're probably not talking enough. (I recall one NYTimes columnist being offended that a chain restaurant menu had an "Asian Salad". Some folks are pretty darned easy to offend.)
If you're oblivious to whether your language is unwelcome or offending someone and thus not shutting it down (and sincerely apologizing as appropriate), you're certainly talking too much. But to make those distinctions, you need to be self-aware. The question is how many of these men are, indeed, self-aware.
2
The first two "keys" trouble me. When I was younger, I used jokes as an ice-breaker and sometimes used analogies of sexual matters. My thought was that sex is pretty much universal and, so, the analogies would have immediate understanding by almost all. Jokes could have been okay but sometimes I didn't know my audience. So, I quit using the jokes. As to the analogies, they seemed to work and then they didn't. Reason being that some in the audience (speaking or writing) found the analogies distracting. Consequently, I shifted and used other comparisons. Done! But, at times the perfect analogy is there, but can't be used. God, I used to love bacon, but I know that I can only eat it rarely and in small portions and if I'm serving guests I need to be sure that there are bacon free dishes. I hope the pigs don't take umbrage.
1
The vast majority of the men who have been outed are older, fatter and balder than the male ideal. Are the more studly men better behaved, or is it just that their abusive behavior is received differently by their targets?
3
This is a two-way street. There is lewd gesturing, sexual innuendo and even obvious frottage on the part of female workers as well. I used to refer to it as "work out" or "gym" behavior. It is the kind of behavior that you walk away from or push the person away while labeling her rude or aggressive or over medicated.
2
I used to work in the garment industry in the 1960s and 70s. The sewing machine operators mostly women 2 and 3 times my age were always referred to as "girls". The managers of the sewing room were usually called "Floor Ladies". Male managers were referred to by their first name or by "mister" so and so. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that until about 1997 when I took a post graduate course at Penn State. I was asked to work with a group of female students. Ok, no problem. But I suddenly found myself aggressively attacked by a group of women who were very angry that I used the term "girls" when referring to them. They told me I was an ignorant, sexist, biased, opinionated, good-old boy, who was grossly inconsiderate, rude and arrogant. Whew! I didn't know how to reply but when called out in a group and told to change my bad behavior and disrespect for women then I advised these culturally correct monsters that I come from a manufacturing culture that used the term "girls" without fear of reprisal. The term "girls" is not a sign of disrespect or denigration. But, because I am considerate of their feelings I agreed to make a change. However not before telling them that ridiculing me in the manner that they did was out of line and disrespectful to me. Why didn't they consider where I came from and why the necessity to embarrass me?
I'm tired of walking on eggs. Men are not perfect. But we're not all monsters seeking to sexually assault, embarrass, or grope.
13
Here is the rule: today only women have the right to refer to adult females as girls.
2
So you had one bad day and changed your ways. Thank you. No one thinks you were a monster.
You were offensive. Why do you think it is the job of the offended to be the teachers, the bigger people etc?
1
I agree that you were poorly treated.
I'm in my sixties and remember when we became aware that being called a girl instead of a woman at work was disrespectful. The men were referred to as men and were paid accordingly. The women were called girls and their wages were looked at as "pin money." Calling someone a girl diminishes their stature and makes us seem immature. It's not as bad as calling a Black man a "boy" but the effect is similar.
3
Most of the faces were blank, indicating no problematic behaviors, while some were just lit up in color.
1
In other news...96% of the men surveyed did not attempt to coerce, pressure, touch, repeatedly express their sexual interest, or talk in a sexual way with anyone.
3
Some people will consider anything "offensive." Conflation of silly jokes with threats and physical abuse is ridiculous.
7
'some might find offensive' casts a rather wide net.
6
I would like to see the same poll done with women. According to some European studies the ratio of male-to-female "harassers" is about 3 to 1, would be interesting how a NYT survey maps to that statistic.
1
One in 25 may not sound like a lot, but it only takes one man to make you 100% miserable......and almost all workplaces/schools etc have more than 25 men in it.....
2
"Made remarks that some might consider sexist or offensive?"
-For the 'victim industry', the y-chromosome is offensive.
15
Fascinating that more blue-collar men admit to the sexual joking. Is this because the so-called elites really are so elitist they can't imagine they'd behave this way when they do?
1
If you're a man my age (52) or less, chances are you have been exposed nearly your entire life to the theory and practice that women are your equal, particularly in the white collar world. I've never really given it a second thought, or really cared for that matter, because as an attorney, my job is to pursue my client's lawful position. If there's a sucker or dimwit on the other side, be they male or female, that's fine with me.
2
Maybe some of this business about so-called off color jokes is going a bit too far and verging on prudery. In my experience of yore when a group of guys started trading the latest risqué jokes over lunch, it was the women present (and by no means promiscuous women) who often laughed most heartily and enjoyed them most. True, they were more often the ones who had grown up with brothers, or were married and understood male humor better.
Frankly the guys who do not enjoy risqué stories may be the ones to watch out for. They may be doing what others find funny and therefore do not like hearing it lampooned.
There are also seem to be times when women accept, almost require, a reassuring offer of a hug -- seeing that as assurance of empathy and personal support when they are having to deal with some emotional problem, rather than as a sexual suggestion. Or have times changed that much since I was younger?
Moderation, please, in all things!
7
I like a good dirty joke as much as anybody, and have laughed with male colleagues as you describe. However, I worked with a group of men who used their humor to exclude me from the team; my manager even told me to leave the room so he could tell my team a dirty joke. Sometimes the problem isn't dirty jokes as such, but rather the hostile intent in telling them.
4
@Janet: That type of exclusion and hostility is inexcusable. I agree. One wonders what type of companionship such folks enjoyed in their own marriages.
2
I don't harass anyone. even so much as say hi. I am waiting for a woman to strike up a conversation with this good looking, decent earning, in great shape guy. But you know what? it will never happen because women don't strike up conversations or send over drinks and for every woman who is upset that a partner in a law firm harassed her, there are women bragging to their friends that they hooked up with this married law partner who is going to leave his wife. #niceguysfinishlast
8
Really? What a lame attempt to correlate sexual misbehavior with support for President Trump! Despite your considerable efforts to prove otherwise, he is not responsible for everything bad in America.
5
I just read the article. Where did that happen?
2
Read the article! It says that men who strongly disapprove of Trump have a low rate of harassing behaviors and of those that practice those behaviors, 37% approve of Trump.
I do understand why you're all so focused on workplace harassment, but what about the boy who cornered me in a stairwell when I was eleven? What about the man who pinched my breast crossing Fifth Avenue at rush hour? What about the man who sat in his car and masturbated while I was raking leaves in my yard one day? The man who stood in front of me on a crowded, crosstown bus and simulated a sex act?
When do we ask men to acknowledge the random acts of low-grade harassment they so selfishly, so incessantly perpetrate on strangers?
Are you going to start intervening to help young women (and men) as this degradation and intimidation occurs? If not, put the paper down and go do something else. There is nothing more for you here.
1
The survey is a start. Now try one asking women if they used their sex in any way, shape or form to entertain themselves, get males to help them or get promotions, raises etc.
I am sure you will get a near saintly result like you got from these men.
3
My stupidest behaviors were usually alcohol influenced. This common social lubricant is typically the background noise behind all sorts of erratic to disgusting social behavior. That drinking is so widely accepted, nay encouraged, does not diminish it's negative impact...including garden variety sexual predation.
2
What an evil gender men are...thank goodness women are the purist, most sensitive beings on the planet.
6
I had a job once where three or four of us worked in a small, about 10x12', room, with a single, shelf-like circumferential "desk," close enough that our chairs commonly touched one another. The two longest-serving employees were married women in their late thirties, who used to commonly and unselfconsciously discuss their sex lives with my male colleague and/or me in the room, as though we weren't there. They discussed techniques for enjoying or avoiding oral sex, anal sex, and similar subjects. It felt a bit odd, not because the conversation made me uncomfortable, but because as a "new guy," I felt that my contributions were probably not welcome, and also because I was concerned that anything I might say could be quoted directly, say, by a passer-by who overheard, as grounds for an EEO complaint. So, I just sat and kept my mouth shut.
Was I sexually harassed? I don't think so, and I don't feel as though I was.
If the sexes were reversed, would I be guilty of sexual harassment? I'd bet big money on it.
This is the reason why men are confused and feel unjustly treated in the "sexual harassment" discussion. Something that was completely not a big deal to me - a discussion any adults might engage in - could get me fired, but not them.
Oh, and I'm a physician, and the workplace was a medical practice.
11
Very similar experience. physician working in a setting primarily staffed by women. coworkers would discuss same in my presence as if I were invisible. Occasionally someone would look over, somewhat self-consciously, giggle and say, "you are like a brother". I also observed a great of touching. I steered clear of it all. Basically you have to assume that your colleagues are not your friends and behave accordingly.
1
Interesting research, as it attempts to get at a troubling aspect of the workplace experience that is extremely widespread, but doesn't exactly fit under #metoo. If you ask women if they have ever been leered at, or had their breasts stared at by a boss, I'm guessing most would say yes. This is the reality of work for women, and it is subtly and pervasively demeaning and undermining. And yet, how do accuse someone about their tone of voice, or the direction of their eyes?
Something else that I don't see a lot of people talking about is the harassment of men by women in workplaces dominated by women. I have worked in two of these settings: higher education and public schools, and in both have seen groups of women talking about sexual subjects that made the one man in the room very uncomfortable. We need men in these feminized professions, and I hate to see them made uncomfortable or to feel as though they don't belong.
8
Livie, thanks for being fair and seeing that the concerns go both ways (unlike the editorial board of the NY Times). I am very offended by this article, which equates off color comments with sexual misconduct. Your little note did so much more to help the situation than the NY Times. I confess to being in the category of bosses who've started at a woman's breasts in the workplace. To be honest, it can be difficult not to do that, especially when women wear cleavage-revealing tops or very tight sweaters to the office, which are designed to draw one's attention to the breasts. It seems to me we are trapping ourselves in a cultural showdown from which there is no exit. Your conundrum of the male teacher trapped in an uncomfortable conversation is the same. (Men in general who have been trapped in a sexual conversation among females are usually shocked at how much more offensive the women's remarks will be and how they are willing to say things about the men in their lives that men would not say about the women in theirs.) Being Puritans isn't the answer. We have to be able to balance sexuality in the workplace if men and women are going to continue to work together.
did you apply the survey to women as well? the article doesn't say. if not, i am curious as to the explanation of why you did not ask women the same questions. some/all of the findings that you attribute exclusively to men may apply to women as well.
NYTimes applying the survey to all genders would have the resulted in a more interesting article; no?
19
Will you be conducting this survey among the same number of Women? You might find that quite a number of Women have told off color jokes, made sexual comments and forwarded off color material. I am not attempting to make excuses for inappropriate male behavior. But we must look at this issue as a problem in our society as a whole. It is not just a male thing.
18
In my own office environment:
- I do not attend any company functions
- I do not socialize with anyone
- I do not speak to anyone unless it is absolutely necessary
- I work with headphones on all day
- I turned down a promotion because over half the staff are female and I do not want to interact with them at all and have any supervisory role of them
6
You don't want to interact with 50% of the population? That sounds healthy.
4
At work, nope.
You were right to turn down that promotion. You're not ready for a leadership position if you can't figure out how to interact with all of your employees- male and female- without being offensive or harassing. It's really not that hard...
2
We certainly live in a culture where women are mistreated and dishonored in many overt ways. But women have made a Faustian bargain with the very fetishes and cultural trends that men are subjected to and help shape male attitudes. Every time women buy into those specific cultural trends and influences they are unwittingly promoting, consuming and participating both commercially and culturally in a dishonorable portrayal of women as ultimately acquiescing to what they presumably should not abide.
What I see between the lines in the repetitive coverage of this issue is the subtle suggestion that a woman must not ever have to suffer humiliation or embarrassment as a result of the words, attitude or actions of a member of the opposite sex. I’m not so sure this is a reasonable expectation. Occasional discomfort and sometimes embarrassment accompanies the dynamic between the sexes. They do it to each other all the time, but in certain gender specific ways. I don't know if this is learned or part of the complexity of human socialization. Finally, I have three daughters. I don't want them subjected to unwanted solicitations nor to locker-room antics. That said, I also have two sons and don’t want them subjected to a society filled with de facto social-media judgments made by mere accusation. Even when women are believed, it should not preclude an assessment of the facts and circumstances before a social stoning ensues.
15
This is an important issue and we are witnessing an important cultural shift as a result. Unfortunately, boiling it down to a cute set of color-coded graphics doesn't tell us much. Yes, it's good to know how many many admit to these behaviors but, as other comments note, this really needs some gender balance. How many women participate in any of these behaviors? How many women have willingly participated in workplace trysts? Or, better yet, how many women have gone to HR and filed bogus complaints in order to retaliate against a supervisor? Finally, how many other forms of workplace harassment don't even rise to the level of concern because they do not involve sex (harassment on the basis of race, handicap, sexual orientation, forms of speech, modes of dress, the list of possible sources for harassment is endless -- why such an emphasis on sex?).
I don't pose these questions in order to belittle or dismiss the severity of the problem but I do want to point out that: 1) it is not skewed to only one gender, and 2) there is a wide gulf of difference between a bad joke and a persistent pattern of sexual harassment.
7
Several commenters want to know why women get away with sexual jokes or innuendo, or using their sex appeal to advance at work.
It's true that women need to look at their own behavior, and stop activities that they'd consider inappropriate in men.
But when women engage in sexual banter, they are often just trying to be "one of the boys" so they aren't excluded from office interactions. And wrong as it is, using sexuality to advance at work is a tactic some women use to level the playing field and get ahead.
Men rule the world, men are in the positions of power, and male-centric culture is dominant in the workplace. Everyone needs to understand what is acceptable and what isn't, for both genders. But let's be clear: it's men who need to take the lead here.
19
Womansplaining
5
Oh please. Men rule the world? Tell the guy who bags your groceries that he rules the world.
3
The thing that wasn't asked but should have been was "Do you find your behavior wrong?". If the reactions of Trump, Cosby, Weinstein, Moore, and all the rest are anything to go by, then I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was "No". That to me is the real problem. If you can't clearly see your actions as wrong even after they are exposed and labelled as such, then what chance do we have as a society of preventing them from happening again.
2
I note the term "leading sexual harassment researchers", which implies that there are more of them, but the Times, of course, has reached out only to the best.
Whenever a major social issue is identified, there soon develops an industry to service it. And the industry itself insures that the problem cannot go away, because it would then lose its reason for existence.
7
"...at a minimum, one in 25 men in the average American workplace identifies himself as a harasser"
And that one man can exhibit this behavior to multiple women and over time. I've seen it in my workplace, and I've seen it spread to other men through influence, goading, and normalizing.
4
Men should be allowed to ask for a date two or three times; one is too few. This form of harassment is really a problem because of the guy who asks dozens of times.
Because people tend to be more attracted to people who like them - if other boxes are ticked off as well - sometimes a woman will change her mind shortly after initially declining. She also might be caught off guard or be playing a little hard-to-get.
3
Trust me, she knows if she likes you in a way that would make her want to date you, well before you ask her the FIRST time. The second no should be your limit. Third "request," you've definitely entered the Creep Zone.
2
It's not a question of whether or not she knows. It's a question of whether or not she can respond the way she wants to the first or second time. Sometimes the people who are the most passionate for each other have the most difficulty making these arrangements because they get tongue-tied, as anyone who has been in this situation can attest to.
There's also the cultural idea that the woman shouldn't appear too eager; that the man will lose interest if he thinks she is desperate.
Hey, if it works for you... this is how you got together with your wife, right?
1
While I am not shocked by the survey's results I am a little annoyed by the apparent connection made to "blue collar" and "white collar" workers as well as the insinuation that men who harass women are mainly Trump supporters. While this might prove a correlation it also might just be coincidence. I believe sexual harassment to be largely separate from occupation and/or political affiliation. Plenty of white collar and Democratic leaning men have been accused of gross sexual harassment; so many, in fact, that simply on the surface it seems that your findings go against reality.
Just for the record I am a "white collar" worker and I did not vote for President Trump. But I feel that if the NY Times wants to truly be seen as a non-biased source of news, it has to stop playing into the class-warfare and left-leaning agendas that many of Mr. Trump's supporters believe it to have. By publishing this survey and making these "connections," it serves no other purpose other than to create political fodder for the President to tweet to his followers.
7
Well said. The most on the street harassment I ever received was when I was a young looking twenty one year old working in a law office on Wall Street. Every day the walk from the IRT to the office was a gauntlet of men in suits whispering obscene suggestions to a woman young enough to be their daughter. The difference was that they whispered what they'd like to do in a voice so low nobody heard it but you.
I would have rather been allowed to pass by with no comment, but I much preferred an honest wolf whistle from a guy my own age to the whispers by men in power.
3
I can only speak from my own experience and the experiences my friends and co-workers have shared, the vast majority of men conduct themselves professionally and properly in the work place. But, it only takes one bad guy to drive multiple women to flee a company. The same guy who sexually harassed me in my first few years in the professional world, harassed several others as well. His behavior was a known "secret" at the company and woman after woman left the company, professional women, women who were exemplary professionals, women who cost a ton to replace, and the company still did nothing. This guy continues to work at the same company (we work in the same industry and in the same small city) and I assume he continues to engage in the same bad behavior 15 years later.
8
The phrase "...some might consider" appears in a few of the questions, and it renders the answers completely useless as data. That's because in 2017, as far as I can tell, some people consider almost anything sexist or offensive.
In the past year at work, have I "distributed materials...that some might consider sexist"? Well, I teach ethics at college, and I assigned my students to read and understand philosophical articles on both sides of the abortion debate. Some people in 2017 consider anything anti-abortion to be sexist and offensive, so yes, yes I have. I'm also sure that, by taking both sides of the issue seriously in the classroom, I've "made remarks" that "some might consider sexist."
Guilty as charged, NYT. And my New Year's resolution is to do it again in 2018.
21
What a cop out. If you don't know the difference between offensive one-on-one behavior with co-workers or students... and 'teaching' a subject that includes controversial material...then you're being purposely obtuse.
This study design is heavily flawed. Very few people are self-aware of the pain and discomfort they cause women. One of the most outspoken supporters of the #metoo movement I've seen is a former professor of mine, who is actively sharing all the articles he can find and shaming those who are being accused. This is the same man who has paid off multiple graduate students for having touched them inappropriately, kissed them, grabbed them, rubbed up against them. He has had three wives -- all current graduate students at the time of marriage. He has five children, all by different graduate students.
He would answer "no" to most of these questions. He considers himself a champion of women.
6
The first rule that my first mentor in business taught me was "don't s**t where you eat". Your paycheck is valuable, don't do anything to jeopardize it. Act professionally at all times, don't fudge your expense report, be nice to everyone, keep your personal life completely out of the office. Come in, do the work, go home.
133
Yet despite seeing others caught doing just this, employees continue to think that in their case it will be different. The entire office usually knows if there's an affair going on. It's the subject du jour so to speak. And we watch to see if there's favoritism, any in jokes between the two, and when the break up occurs. These affairs often interfere with day to day business. They lead to the break up of marriages with all the attendant lapses at work and subsequent problems at home. And almost always someone loses their job. Usually it's the woman but sometimes it's the man.
If you are considering an affair at work please reconsider it. All too often it degenerates into something that is tragic. If you want to use your workplace to find a mate think twice. If all you have in common is work the marriage will probably fail. And do us all a favor and keep the PDAs to a minimum if you must go ahead with the affair. We don't need a full view of tongue kissing or anything else.
3
Amen. I would like this 1000x if I could.
And, YES, men can be sexually harassed, because it happened in my sister's office, and many people reported it to management--who did NOTHING. The young man who was the subject of harassment by a much older woman, was mortified and did not want to call attention to himself, but it was very obvious to everyone who worked there, that it was not right or proper.
This is WORK, people. No the bar, not a party, WORK. Keep work and personal separate, and you will be very well served.
3
Incredible data, and methodology seems reasonable. Thanks for shedding light on this -- clearly a bigger problem than most people think. Did you ask if these jokes or gestures occurred in male-only groups or in mixed-groups? Also curious how this breaks down by age and geography. I think this is very important work and would donate money to have someone repeat the work with a bigger sample.
4
Behaviors “that some might consider offensive . . . “
If anyone, male or female, who values their personal authenticity wants to live life avoiding speech or behavior that “might” offend someone, they’d be better off staying in bed in the morning and not leaving the house. I’ve never lived in a country or a time where so many people were so ready, so on a hair-trigger in fact, to take offense at something or someone. Sometimes it almost seems like it doesn’t matter what the trigger is. Sometimes it seems like we swim in this sea of unexpressed victimhood, anger, resentment, and outrage.
Real intentional offense is so seldom given but it is so easily taken, almost relished. I enjoy life and I love socializing with men and women but I just assume that everyday something I say or do will offend someone. If I constantly monitored myself for “micro-aggressions” and the possibility that I might be injuring someone’s ego, I would have to drain my language of blood and live a very dull life. Given the that alternative, I’d rather take some risk during the adventure.
122
Pretty selfish, I’d say.
3
So, you are saying your sense of the brightness of life is dependent on you continuing to be thoughtless and disrespectful of others?
You don't have to turn yourself into Newspeak in order to talk to people. If you find out something is offensive... stop saying it. Some people don't realize that using "Jew" or "Gyp" as verbs is offensive, because they aren't around Jews or Gypsies all that much. But once you do know this, are you planning to go around using the terms? If so, then you are being rude and deserve to be called out. It's really not all that hard. It just takes recognizing that not hurting others is more important than you being able to do whatever you want - that is, having empathy and compassion.
2
There's a difference between monitoring your behavior when you're socializing in your daily life with friends and family, versus monitoring your behavior in the workplace, when you're supposed to be getting a job done.
Also, just because you don't "intend" to offend or hurt or diminish someone's worth does not mean that your words and actions didn't have that effect on the person. That's a big part of the problem- there's a big mismatch between what men "intend" with their actions and how women feel about it. Hopefully you're now getting a better idea of how women perceive certain words and actions and will adjust your behavior accordingly.
2
The greatest social change starts not in the courtroom, nor the workplace, but at home as children and how our parents show us wrong from right.
It will take one more generation ( or two ) for all of us ( men or women ) to treat one another with respect and as equals, regardless of the dynamic of boss or underling.
Just like racism and homophobia has been depicted as bad and not acceptable on our TV screens and in social media for a while now, misogyny will follow suit.
It takes a critical mass to not allow dark shadows as cover for such behavior, and we are a little ways off yet since a large chunk ( thankful not a majority ) of the country elected a man that offered unprovoked ( on tape ) a mea culpa to sexually assaulting women.
A little ways yet ...
41
In Hollywood films we often see males being bullied and humiliated by army officers, coaches and school staff. Alpha males and others in positions of power use these tactics throughout their lives to keep beta males and anyone they judge to be their subordinates or inferiors in their place. I would be interested in a study that looks more comprehensively not just at sexual harassment of females and younger males in workplaces but at the overlap between that kind of behaviour and the bullying and humiliation that impact on so many us and especially on those who belong to racial, ethnic, religious or sexual minorities. It seems to me such a study would find that there is certain (hopefully not large) percentage of men who are prone to all of these kinds of behaviour. Trump would be in that percentage. He is right out there in the open bullying and humiliating both men and women as well as sexually harassing women.
189
I would like to see a study that evaluated what religion and what political party dominated the people who like to bully and humiliate others. I read a study at one time of incarcerated sex offenders. They predominately self identified at republican and christian.
I think you have picked up on something important here- that sexual harassment is not just about sex (and sometimes isn't about sex at all). It's about exercising power over others.
2
Stuart, as a psychotherapist working with a lot of men and boys, I have to agree that gender roles play an enormous part in all aggressive behaviors. The sooner we pull those up by the roots and thoughtfully examine them -- and include all incomes, genders, and ethnicties -- the faster we'll see a decrease in sexual -- and all other -- abuse of power.
One thing we'll find out: it's not just macho men; males *and* females are sexually abused in workplaces by women, by gay men, and on and on.
I watched a woman who threatened to slap a man because he made a face at her work request (she wasn't serious, just words). It was private and personal and her constant harassment was never addressed. Her work was notoriously incompetent and she was mostly known for being an outspoken bully riding on women's issues. I don't think you can improve behavior without creating a respectful environment that takes disrespectful behavior seriously and fairly address underlying agendas.
The workplace is where people spend most of their social time and lots of inappropriate issues are addressed based on the importance an individual. That individual will test their political prowess by intimidation, bending rules and antagonizing subordinates into humbled silence. They gossip, stress-out, attack, run in packs, and smugly target someone else's pawns. It's corporate politics and management doesn't want to be accused of hovering.
You change the culture by taking a long view of people working together. Improving moral happens when oversight and communications are working well.
8
If they were aware enough -- if they admitted it -- I think you have to double or maybe triple the results for them to be accurate. And that would be conservative, based on my own observations and experience.
21
An interesting report. Harassment, sexual and otherwise, is to be condemned of course. But where do you draw the line? Are we to stop telling jokes (ethnic ones used to be very common, and not racial in the strict sense of the word), even those where we make fun of ourselves...unless we become professional comedians, to enjoy immunity? Wouldn't our world, already too rigid by our hypocritical stance, suffer when we cannot express joy by way of joking around? Ought we re-define our cultural tolerance, so to avoid slights and gross insults in a diverse crowd? Would somebody, please, send us an etiquette manual, so to feel safe while we express our almost atrophied wits in a politically correct way? Perhaps women could lead the way?
10
I agree, except for your last suggestion; based on the past few months of unbearably minute complaints being included in the whole "metoo" thing, I do not think that women should "lead the way" in any re-definition of what is permissible. (I am a woman). Part of the problem is any one "identity" group making sweeping and moralistic decisions about everyone's behavior. Let's decide together, and have some fun doing it. If we are to be able to continue to joke and express joy, we should all have some skin in the game. Everyone needs to lighten up.
1
Thank you, needed your support. Let's do this together. Did you hear about the latest joke? Me neither, but I'll keep an ear out, just in case!
1
One of the most striking statements about sexual harassment is buried in the article, i.e. that women were only somewhat less likely to admit to workplace behavior that could be considered sexual harassment. Similar to the findings that black police officers are as likely as white officers to shoot black suspects, which seems to imply something larger than white racism is at play, the near gender parity in hasrassing behavior points to a broader root cause than simple male sexism/male female power dynamics.
As we strive to reduce this behavior in the workplace, it will be important to consider that workplace harassment is not predominantly a male behavior, in spite of the vast majority of articles on the topic treating it as one.
59
How about some balance? Are ALL women perfectly behaved? Where's the article about their behavior? I have seen many women shamelessly throw themselves at male co-workers and have also seen them and others play the helpless girl routine to get out of work or have others assume some of their responsibility. Lastly, there are those who tirelessly campaign for a marriage partner so that they can retire and live off the spouses hard work. How widespread are these activities? Probably just as frequently as the bad behavior of men but somehow the media is totally silent.
67
A pathologist is best advised to study only one specimen at a time under their microscope. Different cancers have different treatments.
3
Why don't you research it, write an article, submit it to a professional journal, edit it to their satisfaction, and then, see it published? That's what those of us who write these articles for a living do. Hard work. Try it and get back to us.
5
It is the old 'some sexes are more equal than others'.......
You forgot the most normal 'marrying for social status'.
Should we outlaw make this behavior legally criminal (which it isn't) as well as morally suspect (which it is)? A significant percentage of the female population would be in jail.
this survey is a bit skewed. First 19% of the sample group own up to telling jokes or stories and that equals 117 individuals. The sexist remarks coming in at 16% equal 98 individuals. The ratio of "Blue Collar" to "White Collar" is skewed as only 147 "White Collar" workers admit to sexist behavior in comparison to the 234 "Blue Collar" workers. I would like to see a survey done with 615 women being asked how often they experienced the behaviors selected here.
4
The article had my attention up until I saw the "Trump" comments, then my opinion about it went rapidly south. The comments and poll question have absolutely no relevance to this article whatsoever, other than to disparage those who voted for him. Might of well have asked how many people watched movies produced by Harvey Weinstein.
11
I agree! The article went south after that point. Unless the NY discloses what methodology was used to reach that conclusion, this is no more than a cheap political attempt to disparage people that voted for Trump.
4
All of this recent talk of sexual harassment and outing of harassers started after your great leader was elected. He is the reason for all of this, the harasser in chief. Don’t like it, try N Korea where everyone just loves their great leader.Remember when Clinton claimed in public that his transgressions were not sex, remember the outrage and the moral decay of our country. Or are you just blinded by ideology.
1
"In separate, smaller surveys, women were only somewhat less likely than men to admit to harassing behavior, even though men, in polls and in formal complaints, are far less likely to say they’ve been sexually harassed. It could be that men and women see the same behavior in different ways."
Could be? Probably is.
For example, since the article provides numbers for men, why did the editors published the article without the numbers for women? Do the editors view objectively harassing behavior by women as less serious?
One situation I witnessed: A woman manager at a tech firm, a Latina, had serial relationships with young men of color who reported to her over at least 5 years. All of the young men were eventually shown the door. She was promoted. None of the young men ever complained. And the young women who were in the same entry classes seemed happy to have less competition going forward.
10
So I'm still confused by what constitutes a failure on so many of these complaints. Meaning who sets the standard? Who defines what actually is harassment? I can easily see legitimate complaints being made as well a women deciding they just want to be abusive to men.
13
Based on this analysis, as a man, I've been "sexually harassed" by female subordinates at work who have propositioned and touched me. I never considered it "harassment" or "abuse" so does that make it ok? Is it all a matter of the "target" person's perception or just hindsight?
38
Yes, that is harassment. How you choose to receive it is your choice. If it bothers or offends you, you should first talk to these women and make it clear you are not interested in mixing your personal life with work; and don't appreciate their advances (unless you do...) If these women are YOUR subordinates (i.e. they work directly for you), you have an absolute obligation to have that talk- as 'bosses' we are also mentors. Their careers may be determined by an enlightened male colleague advising them or having HR do so. What you may be accepting of can get them fired elsewhere. As a woman who spent a lifetime in corporate American, I had that talk with a few male colleagues. It was 'enlightening' for them and I am confident I did them a favor.
2
Neither one. It's about power.
At the very beginning of the recent deluge of sexual misconduct allegations, I wanted to scream out to let all women know - Not me!!! I won't hurt you. Not all guys are like that.
Now - the allegations have run amuck. The survey asks if you've "made a remark that someone may consider offensive".
So, the new standard in the American workplace is going to be decided by an uptight woman that's easily offended. Yes, I said uptight woman. Believe it or not, that's a real thing.
A real problem has morphed into an over the top cry of political correctness.
78
"Uptight" by your definition means a woman who doesn't share your "sense of humour". That's the whole point. Just because you don't intend to offend, doesn't mean you're not being offensive. Know your audience!
4
That right! If she doesn't like my sense of humor, too bad. I'm considerate and sensitive to other people's feelings, but I'm not in this world to please the most sensitive woman alive.
2
When they were young we told our kids it was okay with us if they occasionally swore and cursed at home because we didn't mind but NOT to do it when Grandma was visiting because it wasn't okay with her. That's what this is all about: courtesy not censorship. It's no hardship to exercise a little self-control.
4
The problem with this survey is that the categories are so broad. Almost anyone has said or done something that someone else might find offensive. Perhaps unwittingly, the article demonstrates the problem with the subjectivity that plagues the entire harassment concept.
16
This is the kind of work that needs to be done to bring about societal change. The enormity of the problem for women in the workforce cannot be defined by Harvey Weinstein. It happens every day to regular people and it needs to stop.
8
In my 15 plus years as a female in this particular industry the job requirement has always been becoming close with your MDs and staff and taking them out for dinner. Even if you are the only female in a group of older males, even if it requires hours late in the evening where alcohol is involved without their wives, and even if you tell your manager you are not comfortable with this it is part of the job. If you look into this particular Sales/Client dynamic the sexual misconduct and harassment would be shocking. I wish we could bring the pens back and do away with the round table dinners.
21
I went to my doctor last winter and sat in the waiting room feeling very sick along with about a half dozen others in the same boat. We were waiting to be called and it seemed like forever. Then in a flourish, 6 beautiful well dressed women walk into the waiting room and chit chat with one another. It turns out they were pharma reps waiting to peddle their drugs to doctors. Surprisingly, all the reps were called in to see the nurse/doctor before any more of the sick patients were called. I saw a door open and them conversing in a conference room!
I guess I figured out my spot in the pecking order and it was not where I thought. I think big pharma hires young beautiful women for the exact dynamic you describe. They make up the rules and expect everyone to play by them. They know what they are doing. How else to get a boring subject to be listened to after hours? It's a wink and a nod by corporate America.
3
With the sex and drugs in place all you are missing is the rock 'n roll. Are the doctors and practice managers more likely to buy the pharmaceuticals after the third tequila? We really need single-payer, to include the bar tabs.
1
I'm beginning to get the feeling that we are looking at only one side of the equation. Yes, men (and women) sometimes engage in inappropriate behavior, but how are we defining inappropriate? Is it ever OK to express any personal interest in a co-worker?
The flip side of the equation: Why do we (men and women) strive to look attractive? Surely we are not clueless about attracting sexual attention. The proliferation of hook-up apps and web sites suggests that we are actually desperate for it. OK, maybe not at work, but should there be some exceptions? Has anyone ever met the love of their life in the workplace? Do people prefer a socially sterile workplace, or would that be experienced as a social dead zone that must be endured for 8 hours a day? How does this fit in with "team building" and other business efforts that are designed to bring people closer together?
Mating is a human imperative. Workplace behavior is a cultural construction. It's a messy interface. Shut down the predators, but don't demonize everyone who expresses interest.
100
@James, I agree that the workplace can be a "messy interface" between the construct of civil professional behavior and the natural inclination to connect.
The survey questions did not include expressing interest in a coworker or asking them out. But they did include continually asking or attempting to establish a romantic sexual relationship when the other person discouraged it.
I believe the line is drawn at "no."
4
I don't think this article 'demonized' everyone. "Harassment" was clearly defined as pursuing a co-worker after they've said 'no.' This does not preclude dating others from the office, as long as the interest is mutual. It goes without saying that this does NOT apply when the co-worker is your boss or direct report.
2
You don't get it at all. This isn't about mating, it is about inappropriate workplace behavior that detract from a woman's ability to work to support herself and/or her family.
1
Why wouldn't you conduct a mirror study on women using the same methodology? The federal survey is interesting but not great for comparison. If you really want to measure respondent honesty in the male study, ask women the same questions in reverse. Has anyone ever told you stories or jokes at work you consider to be sexual? There's probably a perceptual element as well. Men are less likely to perceive their behavior as unwanted than women are to interpret their behavior as such.
For that matter, you might conduct a study that is gender neutral as well. If you ask someone whether they've ever made a sexual gesture to someone at work, how do you know they made the gesture to someone of the opposite sex? Do crude jokes to same-sex co-workers count as sexual harassment? How is the survey respondent supposed to know the difference when they're not supposed to know they're answering a survey about sexual harassment?
This is why I don't like qualitative analytics. There are too many ways to ask the wrong questions when doing surveys. I suppose the information is better than nothing but not that much better. The researchers haven't quite figured this one out yet.
13
Why don't you do a survey about women's behavior. I have witnessed women on many occasions making sexual comments, jokes and other behavior. Personally it does not offend me but I am certainly sensitive to those it does offend. Simply put I do not initiate such conversation.
11
I once had a woman at work accuse me of harrassing her. Her story was completely made up. She was just angry at me for not promoting her. She didn't get away with it. I promptly fired her.
Another time I had a woman I knew from school show up at a hotel I was staying in and demand that I let her into my room. She scared me so badly that I never opened the door. Finally she went away.
The things that tall, dark handsome men who are charming and intelligent have to put up with.
15
When was that, 1957?
7
If these were mostly men at large companies or organizations it wouldn’t be surprising to hear that the percentages were much higher at small companies where there are no HR departments and a greater fear of retaliation.
Something must be done to increase protections for sexual harassment regardless of company size especially in the case of low paid workers without the wherewithal to assert their rights.
8
Maybe I worked in atypical environment (university IT support), but I was never aware of sexist behavior going on in our IT environment -- and a large percentage of our upper management were women. However, we had lots of other management problems, from nepotism to poor customer support.
7
Hold the phone a minute. We live in a culture where sex and sex appeal confronts us in various forms of media every second of the day. Where violent and sexually abusive video exploit entertainment in the name of "realism". Where top entertainers make their name using crude sexual material. All the color-coded behaviors in this feature are repugnant and must be avoided in the workplace. And Everyman, molded through millenniums of Western culture steeped in chauvinism, male conquest and depravity and presently drowning in sexual imagery, must do an abrupt about-face right this moment and become as innocent as Adam. Girls, gals, women (what should we even be ALLOWED to call you?), I'm dancing as fast as I can.
6
Not all sexual harassment is the same. Some may be offensive but let's concentrate on the most egregious, otherwise we risk looking pathetic, weak and perhaps unemployable. I don't want it to reach a point where businesses stop hiring women because they are afraid of sexual harassment cases.
6
I have worked in the field of mental health for many years as a counselor. Most of my clients, upward of 90%, have experienced some form of abuse, in all venues: home, neighborhood, church, workplace, school. This gave rise to anxiety, depression, PTSD, relationship problems, and more. Mostly women, but also men.
I was pleased that the NY Times went to the trouble of doing this study. But saddened by the results...how pervasive this problem is!!! I liked T Montoya's comments about his changing perception of why women responded as they did...I have also come to realize that for some people, such behavior becomes the norm, and while hated, is sometimes not even labeled as abuse. Like the story of the frog in the boiling water: if you drop a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will jump right out, but if you put a frog into a pot of cold water and slowly raise the temperature, it will boil to death....how many of our homes, school, churches, workplaces, have some of us slowly boiling to death?
15
I am a woman and probably guilty of the blue sins ... Are you implying that the human male nature differs with education, money and political views ???
People answer what they want or perceive ... nobody pokes in their real actions.
4
"Are you implying that the human male nature differs with education, money and political views ???"
I think they are concluding that, and they are wrong. It's response bias. "White collar" workers are doing the same stuff, but not admitting to it.
The article neglects to point out the BIG presumption: that ALL women consider these actions in a negative sense. I am not implying nor stating that some, or any, women enjoy harassment, groping, etc., but I am saying that each and every woman is different.
E.g., when I was employed as a librarian, I worked in a predominantly female environment, maybe 75:25 female:male. My superior and one officemate (both women) and I could be said to have shared "jokes or stories" or made "sexist remarks", which seems to be in that "most common type of action" category. Often, they initiated such talk; sometimes it was as a "gosh, I know I shouldn't be saying this but.." And it was okay. We understood each other.
Another co-worker was a bit more strict, for lack of a better word, but I (the male in the office) knew this and made certain to speak/act differently around her. Yet, on more than one occasion, she would bring up something of a sexual nature but in more of a discussion sense, e.g., "what's with this genital mutilation? why would...? what's the purpose?"
So, my point is, your survey, and much of the reactionary "conversation" (men-bashing), is just that: close-ended and presuming the worst. People talk about sex. It should not be taboo to do so. The USA has been uber-puritanical about sex for too long, and likely, that is a root problem to this issue (big debate there).
But adults can set boundaries, communicate them, and abide by them. We just need to act like adults.
84
I agree with much of what you write, except for laying blame on the USA being "uber-puritanical about sex". Though Outrage Culture has not penetrated other industrialized countries (particularly Western European ones) to the degree we've seen in the USA, you'll note that these movements and "moments" to tend to sweep across that entire landscape. Abuse of women is a hot topic in France today. They're hardly a puritanical bunch, generally.
4
Is it just "happenstance" that these same questions could be asked to detect racism?
4
19% told jokes or stories.
Guess what men. That’s not funny.
30
They tried to stop the men
and never the less, we persisted
;)
3
I'd be interested in an analysis of hearsay data.
Pre-study: Define attributes that indicate social contract enforcement mechanisms in a workplace, such as hotlines, visibility of relevant legal staff, and reputed outcomes of reports brought to management. Define measures of close relationships at work based on likelihood to hear warnings. For example, how many colleagues at work would tell you as a warning if a third party (a, b) engaged in a social contract violation or (c) is said to have engaged in a social contract violation (a) that affected the colleague, (b) that is credibly reported to have affected a close acquaintance of the colleague, or (c) that is credibly reported to have affected an unnamed third party.
Study: What mechanisms are in place to enforce social contracts at your workplace? In each tier of closeness of relationship, how many social contract violations have been credibly reported to you in the last quarter / year / 5 years through your social contacts at work?
Analysis: Look at raw prevalence data across workplace types, time scales, and demographics. Look for variation in the pattern of prevalence across workplace types and time scales.
2
“In separate, smaller surveys, women were only somewhat less likely than men to admit to harassing behavior.”
As a woman, I am interested in knowing the results of those surveys too. Sexual harassment is, after all, gender neutral.
104
Emi, a voice in the wilderness, a subject the NY Times won't touch, ie women in the workplace using their sex for entertainment, self esteem, getting men to help them, raises, promotions etc.
Don't get me wrong sexual predators like Weinstein, Trump etc. although uncommon are mainly men.
People down the line who are not predators but go over the line with sex are as equal or even more likely to be women then men in my experience after 40 yrs. in major corporations.
4
Sexual harassment is not gender neutral, because power is not gender neutral, and sexual harassment relies on power.
2
Exactly Kelly R, using sex in a workplace is an equal opportunity offender gender wise,. It is just that women generally do it in a less overt manner than men.
1
Interesting article and survey. It probably does not report the extent of the actions noted, but the researchers cover that possibility.
As a white male with graduate degrees and a white collar work history, however, I have a problem with this research. I am a Republican and Trump voter. I note that the researchers only singled out Republican/Trump voters. I know of no other way to get the results you want than not asking questions to complete the picture. In this case, how about asking about Democrats and Obama people.
Oh, in case anyone wonders, I have never displayed any of the behaviors noted in the article. I have been witness to such behavior and it makes me cringe. Also, in my experience, this style of male behavior was not limited to the rank and file of employees, but shown by upper management. It is about time it started coming out. Thanks to the brave women who took the step.
6
Oh, and Donald Trump is not a racist either.
2
And yet you voted for Trump anyway.
6
Article doesn't 'single out Republican/Trump voters.' Article explicitly said the questions were posed across demographic divides. Results answers which voters are most prone to committing sexual harassment.
And how do you feel about the women accusing your hero? (are they brave or are they lying?) And how do you feel about your hero's bragging about his sexploits?
4
I was surprised at the chart showing a higher percentae of blue collar workers vs white collar workers engaging in these behaviors. In my experience it is the reverse - by far. I once worked at a ‘brand name’ refinery in So. Calif. and the men working on the equipment were quiet and respectful towards me. It was the men in suits, the men in charge that were the problem. Everything with a wink so if you complained they could claim in was a joke. It was relentless. The quiet dignity and kindness of the ‘working men’ touched me deeply and in truth they were my ballast. I am grateful to them to this day.
142
I think the explanation here is the correlation between supervisor/culture and harassment. As a woman, I've been harassed by both blue collar and white collar workers, so the fact that both are guilty of these behaviors doesn't surprise me. In my experience, it is 100% the culture of group you are working in. Supervisors tend to hire people who exemplify behaviors they identify with and workers tend to emulate their supervisors, so if the supervisor is a "good old boy," serial sexual harasser, their workers will (generally) follow suit. Many people will justify this kind of group-think harassing behavior by saying it's just the culture, everyone at work jokes around, they all know that we're just joking, it's just "locker room talk," etc.
7
Perhaps the blue collar workers are more honest with themselves. Or perhaps their behavior is more limited to crude jokes and stories. I too have worked in both environments and there was much more explicit discussion or joking about sexual matters on the construction site. I don't remember thinking then that any of that was nefarious, though, just immature jokes.
1
Absolutely agree that blue collar workers are far more respectful to women than the suited white collar guys. In my last stages of pregnancy in the 1980s, two groups of people consistently offered me their subway seats--blue collar workers and middle-aged African-American women despite the fact that they most likely spent most of their days on their feet. The white collar guys could not bury their noses deeper into their newspapers in avoidance.
5
It's interesting to me that the poll data does not have a segment cut by age of the responder, which seems like a natural potential correlate to me given the speed of cultural change and what was once "acceptable" but now is not. As a younger man, I have seen harassment in the workplace, although at the time, ten years or so ago, no one commented on it as such. The harasser in this case was much older, and was generally just crude in all respects, and harassed men as well as women, though I'm sure the women took the brunt of the abuse. It would certainly be interesting for the survey results here to show a distribution by age, and there is a part of me that wonders if it is not shared because it tells too discerning of a story. Of course, I could be wrong.
69
Mike Morgan it could be that (1) as a man you aren't around when it happens (2) you don't identify it as harassment (3) older men are more likely to be in positions of power and engage in it
There's a part of me that wonders if you are selectively forgetting the huge harrassment issues in technology and startups.
As for me, my two harassers last year were one in his 30s, and another in his mid-40s. Both were in management. And I swear it's gotten worse instead of better over the decades.
5
"Too discerning of a story"? I have no idea about what you are trying to say!
2
It has been an informative year for me. I haven't engaged in any questionable behavior in years but I have gained a greater insight into women's reactions. Most notably, I had come to think most women responded favorably to what I would have considered aggressive flirting or alpha male behavior. I now realize many women were caught unprepared and were just trying to stall for time by laughing so they could exit rather than encourage such behavior. It has influenced how I will raise my son to recognize limits when he comes of age.
289
Thank you, T Montoya, for having the humility and grace to recognize the reality of your past behavior. Those of us who've had to pretend to be amused while looking for the fastest exit truly appreciate it.
I wish you success in your efforts to help your son grow up to became an aware and considerate adult.
11
Women in general are raised to always be 'nice'. Be a good girl, a nice girl is always reinforced. So many women may respond to negative situations with niceness, often too nice. It's how they are trained. I think women must relearn this and not be so nice all of the time. Men take advantage of their niceness.
8
Your comment makes this entire #metoo effort worthwhile...
7
There may be strong group dynamics in how a person behaves, in public and in private. Certain harassment behavior are encouraged by films, video, social media , news items, and by the group leaders, such as parent, coach, manager.
24
I used to regularly watch the comedy channel for a few minutes before going to bed but I stopped because I could not stand the foul, sexist and racist material that is the staple for so called "cutting edge" comics. The laughter they provoke in their live audience, I believe, is largely by shock and a desire to "be a good sport" as everyone else laughs, but occasionally the camera cuts to the audience and not everyone is laughing. I'm with them.
7
True, some harassers are parents at home.
I worked in a place where sexual harassment was rampant. My colleagues were lawyers. What surprised when #MeToo started wasn't the number of women who came forward or the men who were identified as harassers but the good guys who claimed they had never noticed. One male colleague said he hadn't seen a hint of harassment in our workplace, not even rumors. When I reminded him of the rumors we had both heard, he said he didn't trust rumors. When I described incidents I had personally witnessed, he said he hadn’t noticed them. Another male colleague who advised me years ago not to “make a big deal about it" now wondered why more women hadn't reported harassment. If good guys want to help, they can start by listening more carefully and paying more attention.
359
“Good guys” want to keep their jobs. “Good guys”will never rock the boat no matter the issue. “Good guys” want their paychecks and will shut up about anything that might be the least bit controversial. “Good guys” will never back their colleagues no matter what.
“Good guys” turn their heads the other way. Don’t ever count on a “good guy” to help you out if you need support. They want one thing. To stay out of the lime light and get their paycheck to the bank.
9
I'd like to be a mouse in the corner of Mima's kitchen when her husband comes home and announces he was fired for being a "good guy" at work by standing up to the boss who harassed his colleague. I think a different tune would be sung then.
3
A similar “blindness” to harassment etc. is shared by those who don’t see the bias in law enforcement against people of color. Somehow, if it doesn’t affect you personally, many people are blind, deaf and dumb as well.
13
As is always the case, the culture of an institution inflates or deflates the tendencies of its workers. I've been an educator for 25 years, real estate salesman, small business manager, and a home-improvement worker for several years. My broker was a cigar smoking, martini drinking misogynist--employed women were objectified in the office, female customers were diminished behind their backs.
The home improvement business I worked in never treated women unfairly--except, perhaps, that there were no women workers on our 4 person team. The male owner of the store I managed generally preferred female managers because he believed them to be more trustworthy.
In education I've seen the gamut: in Bushwick, Brooklyn I saw different female teachers get harassed (squeezed into a corner) by the same AP. (I was newly hired, on probation. When I made a complaint, I was told to be careful because the superintendent needed no reason to terminate my employment). As a teacher in a private school overseas, physical contact was repeatedly made by my female supervisor--we worked together on numerous projects for the school--we both taught AP and IB English--and she would often find a way to touch hands or knees while we sat at adjacent computers. However, I deemed her contact more as an invitation than leverage.
9
It is notable this study does not ask workers about their supervisors. That would prevent the researchers from claiming blue collars harass more.
I can't help wondering who would participate in this survey! It was conducted online. Even with a promise of confidentiality, doesn't everyone suspect by now that every keystroke we make online can be tracked and traced? I just don't understand the mindset.
The article says that a separate phone survey was done and it found similar results. Here too...who on earth would answer these questions in a phone call?!
I realize I'm not commenting on the substance of the article. I'm just astonished at what people will respond to online or over the phone, and I wonder how representative the answers are.
120
I've seen exactly the same complaint about surveys of women who claim to have been harassed, for example in higher ed: that women who have been victimized are more likely to participate.
2
My experience leads me to believe that the answers by men grossly under represent the harassment that was and is still taking place.
6
One does hope it was not initiated by a mass-emailing, such as "Mr. S. SMITH, if you are male, would you care to answer a survey?.....", the "S." standing for Sarah or Sue, etc., of course.