It is so interesting to think that these murders/violence are because of listening to rap. These people who are killing or being killed are one way or another either in a gang or crossed one. They are not killed by random (random killing is happening in the US, and these days in schools, place of work, etc. ). Why young people join these gang is because of many social and economic issues that our local governments cannot deal with. And, for sure is not related to being a migrant. Migrants are victims and not the cause.
11
A couple factual points or questions:
1. My impression is that in the US, gangster-type rap has declined somewhat in amount, and has declined moreso in its percentage among all rap/hip hop.
2. Rap/hip hop in US has increased greatly as a percentage of all popular music, however you measure it. Inexplicable to me. Overall the lyrics have become softer, or more punches pulled. But the sound of the "music" is too hard, and this in itself may encourage bad behavior. Yeh you can point to heavy metal of previous eras, but that is still around in abundance -- in the US and Scandinavia -- and that may add to the total antisocial effect of current music.
3. People seem to assume that the crime-immigrant connection involves darker-skinned people from continents other than Europe. That may be so, but the perpetrators in Swedish and Finnish crime shows I've seen are often white Eastern Europeans.
5
I'm an American living in Sweden for 11 years now.
Sebbe Staxx was right.
This isn't about rap.
This is about a naive country, that had and continues to have a weak police force, and had and continues to have a weak rule enforcement system, because, it didn't used to need one, because it had an extraordinarily honest, community minded, and homogenous (in outlook) citizenry, who had very high faith in the government and the "system"
Then it let in a whole lot of immigrants (which was a very kind and decent thing to do) who needed a place to go.
BUT these immigrants came from countries with dysfunctional governments, governments and systems which were corrupt, so the idea of "taking" from the government or breaking rules was not a question of morality. On top of that, Sweden has a housing crisis and a highly automated economy with very few low skill jobs, so while these immigrants were housed and fed, they were relegated (to a large extent) to a mediocre life on the dole (through no fault of their own) and isolated in immigrant ghettos (because of the housing crisis). The average (including high skilled non-asylum seeking immigrants) time for an immigrant to get a full time job is 8 years!
On top of that, the education system isn't great, and it's entirely unprepared for the huge glut of kids who don't speak Swedish. It's a huge problem, and the well-meaning politicians who opened up our country to the world in 2015 have created a crisis we will deal with for generations.
151
Another rapper shot down - sorry, but not surprised.
31
Rap, just part of the culture that encourages young men to get a gun and be a "man".
48
most immigrants in Sweden are white!
8
@abc
i guess that depends on how you define white.
The overwhelming majority of immigrants over the last 10 years are from either Africa or the middle east.
45
This whole article and no mention of the very real issue of mass immigration to well-established, old countries with their own defined cultures. The US simply does not understand how to write about the rest of the world without seeing it through its own experiences.
78
We're told constantly that culture matters. Word choices, representation, and plot-lines of tv shows are endless dissected according to what political message they might convey. But when the world's most popular genre of music is basically advocating a psychopathic value system this is completely ok?
119
As someone who lived in Norway many years, and socialized with Swedes, I can tell you that there have been major problems with immigrants from the Middle East and Africa in both of those nations. The cultural (religious) differences are far too great. You cannot accommodate such large numbers of immigrants who bring their defiant regressive, anti-woman, authoritarian religious views to an advanced, non-secular, civilized nation and expect those immigrants to immediately start confirming. They bring all of their dysfunction and problems with them. They will not change for generations, possibly never fully if the men continue to control those families and religions. The other problem is that the immigrants do not assimilate or integrate despite strict Norwegian requirements for immigrants to learn the language, customs, history etc.
Norway is not part of the EU but has an agreement as part of Schengen. We had seen in increase in crimes, sexual assaults and other problems, especially in schools, with the increased immigrants. That experience has led me to believe that mass immigration and mixing of extreme cultures too quickly and broadly is a failed experiment, and it’s the biggest reason for populist backlash in the USA and EU.
135
Whatever you think is going on in Sweden is not applicable to the US. The majority of immigrants to the US are Christian just like the majority of the native born population. Also, the populist backlash was triggered partly by having a black president even though black people in the US have been here since the beginning and trace their ancestry in the US back to the 17th and 18th Centuries.
14
Let there be no mistake that Sweden's focus on unity, tolerance and love is valid. That being said. At the edges of the Sunflower the space between the seeds - the illusion of separation - becomes so great that it becomes necessary to educate the population about why the sunflower got its groove on. Hence why Einstein said that "education starts at the cradle". Perhaps a good education contains the right mix between science and non duality and the gospel of love plus some literally classics. For make no mistake: the meaning of life is love alright. It is just that love is a synonym for companionship and friendship. It is this reason for the Illusion of separation.
7
A century ago, many Europeans emigrated to the US, as it was personified with the Statue of Liberty as an American dream of freedom and financial success. In Treasure Islands: Tax Havens and the Men Who Stole the World, Meyer Lansky took note of Al Capone serving time for tax evasion--rather than the many crimes of murder, etc. (probably by paying off many high profile local, state, federal? politicians). So did our city's political boss Pendergast. Somehow, Meyer Lansky must have been traveling in some rarefied financial circles with ill-gotten wealth to learn about former colonial possessions island tax havens post WW II, and thus a multi-million dollar industry of organized crime came into pre-eminence in the US, which was eventually brought down by the Church Committee hearings. As long as organized crime was beneficial to the fight against communism, it was allowed to flourish. Today, the world is awash in globalization 2.0 and only when a bunch of juvenile two bit players engage in murder and mayhem are the pearl-clutchers disturbed. No one is ever disturbed about what happens in developing countries from which today's immigrants arrive or on those tax haven islands, where the elite of the "advanced" and developing economy countries alike offshore their dirty work.
10
For all this talk of immigrants and assimilation
Assimilation is difficult on both sides. There is a trauma for those immigrants, and even with stellar social benefits, you are still an outsider. You look different, speak differently, and long for different things (food, family, homeland, less snow!).
To expect this to happen perfectly and within a few years of arrival in a new country is unrealistic.
To expect the welcoming country to also accept you without asking you to give something up is also unrealistic. But what should you give up? Perhaps your masculinity and anger is your last refuge and you cling to it.
Does this mean countries should keep outsiders out at all costs? No, that is immoral and basically impossible anyway. It’s not like Sweden threw open it’s doors and said come on over. The immigrants showed up and it would have been inhumane to send them back.
For all the Americans wringing their hands about how Sweden made a huge mistake letting in immigrants and that’s what’s causing this crime wave - do you forget that this wouldn’t have happened without the permission of Swedish people? Last I checked, they can still vote. There’s a large part of the population that feels it their moral duty to allow these people in because they were in need.
17
The US destabilised the Middle East and Afghanistan, and Europe had to absorb the inevitable human exodus. The US rigged the world economy and Europe is absorbing the mass of voluntary economic migrants coming by land and sea. Unlike the US, Europe is filled with dozens of distinct old peoples and cultures, homogeneous in many parts. It was always going to be hard on Europe. Better to have gone to immigrant colonies like the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand where melting pots make sense and the indigenous peoples are the only ones with original sovereignty.
19
“If something sells, I’m going to do it,” he said. “I’m all about the money.” This right here is the root of literally every problem we have as humans.
47
I wonder what their militia scene is like. In the US you hear a lot of society condemning (rightfully) gang culture. However, it seems the heavily armed militias are talked about more in a political sense. "Nationalists" rather than criminals. Just a thought coming from the discussion of the moral panic that always occurs in the US when gang activity increases. Criminals, its because of rap, where are their parents, no morals...etc... But for white gangs like the Proud Boys, they get a shout out from the former president.
15
As a musician that has worked hard at the craft playing actual instruments. I am tired of people calling this genre music
It is sound a like sampled " poetry" at best- not music and not made by musicians
59
What orchestra do you perform with?
2
Rap is rhythmic aggression. It's got a beat to which shouting (often obscene) is affixed. It is not music. If anything, it's more like primitive oral poetry, but without the poetry.
48
@Dookie
It isn’t poetry either. Nor are these people “artists.” It is ranting to a beat.
49
I think net, net, it all stems from a lack of self-esteem...a feeling of despondence...no good role models, etc. Kids who are self-assured (not to be confused with cocky), content, who can appreciate the little things in life, who have healthy relationships/emotional outlets...such kids would not be glorifying or participating in this type of 'thug lifestyle'.
4
The majority of posts, clearly racist ones about how bad "those" people are, would have been expected on a blog by Fox. Not different from Trump's statement about those south of the border being rapists and murderers, with maybe a few of them not being so.
But then at heart, no side of the political aisle has a monopoly on racism. Sweden has one of the LOWEST homicide rates in the world. The knee-jerk posts I refer to are about a non-existent high rate of homicide.
10
@Zack
85% committed by “those people.” Data cannot be ignored if problems are tk be solved.
41
@Moderate There is no such thing as "those" people, other than for bigots. Everyone on the planet is an individual whose character is unique to that person. The non-bigot deals with each person as the individual he or she is.
4
There is no doubt the thuggery of hip hop is only condoned or ignored by the left/progressives because it's primarily (but not entirely) rooted in Black culture and they do not wish to antagonize or alienate an important voting block. If it was white right wingers committing this mass bloodshed and spewing this sort of hateful lyrics there would be a stigma to be a fan. No other music culture has the bloodshed and consistent violence that hip hop does. Also, if there was nothing wrong with it why is it that non-black people lose their jobs for singing along to the music? Has anybody ever lost their job for singing along to country, alternative, heavy metal? I'm not saying these genres don't have problematic history but for some reason you can sing along to the music without causing a huge backlash.
45
All the bleeding hearts will defend this culture as a result of 1) poverty; 2) poor housing; 3) lack of youth opportunity; 4) racial unfairness. All the rappers will tell you they do it for money. Easy money preferably. The other stuff is an excuse to keep pushing this down the throats of everyone. As far as the kids that listen, adolescence is a time to look about for something to help form an identity. If thuggery and violence are offered them, of course some will eat it up.
41
I am a dual citizen of Sweden and the United States - I grew up in Stockholm - and I can unequivocally state that Sweden is one of the most racially segregated countries in the world (#1 in Europe). They are in racial infancy in terms of research - whiteness studies are just beginning to take an academic foothold, and there are numerous research reports proving my point. But what is even worse - the official policy of the Swedish government for decades has been to delete the word "race" from all publications, discourse, reports, and national culture. The word "race" has been replaced with "ethnicity," which of course is completely different. This issue has created embarrassment in terms of translating research; it has provided zero helpful statistics and created a complete hole in Swedish measures to otherwise create a just and equal society, as has been the goal since the early 20th century. The alarmist discourse concerning "violence and gang warfare" is another smokescreen for extreme racism, discrimination, segregation, and a society so painfully unequal, that entire swaths of the population in Sweden - where 1 in 3 has a "foreign background" (their favorite term) - is cut off from the racial white majority. The political SD party - Sweden Democrats - has its origins in Nazi ideology and some of its adherents are previous skinheads and white supremacists. "Gang warfare" is simply code for racism, xenophobia, and hatred of POC. You reap what you sow.
14
@Xtine
Scientists long ago pointed out there is no genetic basis for distinguishing humans based on "race". Race is an artificial sociological construct, based on a need to sort people into as narrowly defined groups as possible.
Racists rely heavily on the use of "race" to divide people into "us" and "them". Both many liberals and conservatives will never accept others just as human beings.
3
Yes, more “whiteness studies” should ultimately fix things. They’ve been so successful here, being backed up by tons of empirical and experimental work that there’s absolutely no confusion between correlation and causation. /s
11
@Xtine
Scientists long ago pointed out there is no genetic basis for distinguishing humans based on "race". Race is an artificial sociological construct, based on a need to sort people into as narrowly defined groups as possible.
2
A cursory search of the Internet yields data that shows Sweden has averaged about 340 shootings per year for the last four years. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1178223/number-of-shootings-in-sweden/ ). While Sweden is of course right to take any violence seriously, this article is lazy, based on cherry-picked data, and relies on race panic tropes. Disappointing to see this in the New York Times.
9
And you just know that Vlad Putin is huge fan of this young man.
6
Is drug trade the "business" of Sweden's gang culture? If yes, I wish the article had discussed this - it would really expand the discussion. If no drug trade, what's the basis for the violence?
27
@Pam YES!! That is a major part of this, absolutely.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/16/drug-gang-violence-in-sweden-linked-to-60-bomb-blasts-increase
4
I see a bunch of young men with massive Oedipal complexes. Where are the fathers in this situation?
31
Dear Ruth R.:
I like that analysis , no Freudian psychology background needed: simple replacement (desertion, abandonment, etc.) of the (a) strong paternal role models.
4
The number of homicides in Sweden was 124 in 2021. The number of 46 only referred to gun related deaths. This compares to 904 homicides in Germany during the spike in 2018. About the same number per capita as in Sweden.
9
Thank s Tom for comparative stats, if true (but I don’t think I’ll go back there, like I did in ‘86)
@Tom
and now let's compare that to numbers in the US ...
3
And Americans of a certain type wonder why Hungary, Poland, the Czechs, and other European countries have refused to have migrants dumped on them by the EU.
83
@Lotzapappa Most Poles are in fact quite open to migrants. There's a number of South Asians in the fairly traditional community where I mostly live. On the other hand, there's a minority of "patriots" whose demeanour is rather like that of the January 6 crowd, chanting things like "Poland for the Poles" on national holidays. They're far scarier than the Swedish gangs.
10
@Lotzapappa
unless you are Native American or Black American ... you are the descendants that was "dumped on" the Canada
4
This is only the beginning. Soon we will have gangsta madrigals, and string quartets. Gunfire breaking out in orchestra pits.
26
Einar an artist? Lumpen is more apropos an appellation.
18
Toxic masculinity—the universal language.
63
@Z in TX Funny, there were plenty of men in Sweden before the massive influx of immigrants, but no toxic masculinity. Can to posit why?
32
NYT readers should spend one whole day listening to rap. Just one day, at volume. Listen to the words, let the music affect them.
Then NYT readers will have some sense of it. Most NYT readers have never even listened to rap.
Listen to rap for just one whole day.
27
@Urban It's been rammed down everyone's throats and ears for thirty years. Please, no.
38
@Urban I haven't listened to much. I don't understand it.
What I've heard of rap has been misogynistic, hateful, and egotistical. It seems to me the antithesis of music like Jazz. It strikes me as pretty ugly, to be honest. And certainly not intelligent.
But I haven't heard much, I admit.
25
@Urban I accept your challenge. But I will do it tomorrow so if I am driven to murder and crime spree all Saturday night I won't have to miss work the next day.
14
It's shocking to me how acceptable "gangsta rap" is in today's culture. When I was in the Army (1990's) I lived in the barracks and had to put up with this booming loud profanity-laced misogynist garbage "music". Men shouting about raping women in various ways, turning us into "hos" and killing us. I still remember being in tears at times with earplugs in trying to sleep at night. Apparently degrading women is okay for the hip hop crowd.
196
@AlennaM it's also okay to denigrate gays, Jews and Asians. It's also okay to denigrate blacks as long as the person doing it is black. Those are the ridiculous rules of the hip hop community that everybody ascribes to. I laughed to see how the same community works themselves into a froth when somebody transcends these rules. I'm thinking of how Eminem recorded something as a teenager which refer to black girls as being stupid. This became known about 25 years afterwards and it caused an uproar and he had to apologize profusely for it. Meanwhile black men in the same genre spew vitriol against women, gays, Jews and Asians a zillion times worse as a norm and nobody bats an eye. Hip hop has changed from being the critics of racial hypocrisy to being the perpetrators of it.
73
Dear Alana: Sorry for your loss (of hearing, hopefully not permanent). Glad I was borned in that sweet spot, 1957, where I was too young for (Viet) Nam.. too old (dumb, outa shape, non adventurous,) for anything GULF WAR, Near East, or whatever
3
Have you listened to rap lately, there is no gangster rap in America…Google gangster rap… you can’t even find one person that has did it in the last 20 years.
This whole comments section sounds like a bunch or people who have no idea about rap music…
Gangster rap scares away the money in America…Rap music in America is almost exclusively about revenue…
2
If they commit a crime or own an illegal gun, then send them back to the country they came from.
There is no love or joy in Rap music. It does not make you feel good, only anger. Violent gang members glorify it and contribute to the death rate here.
58
@Therese
Could also be that the music reflects the reality they are living, my friend. How do you write songs about joy when there is no joy around you?
10
@Melissa How do you write songs about joy when rap music, and the twisted attitudes that much of it celebrates, are all around you?
13
Why is verbal misogynistic violence a valid “cultural expression” when uttered by Black men but an expression of white supremacist patriarchy when the rapper is white? Is the double standard not blatant?
Black misogyny is a very real cultural phenomenon. (If you require a source, I recommend Crenshaw or Hill Collins.) No amount of past oppression justifies acting as an oppressor.
The real question: will this comment see the light of day or have frank discussions become taboo for the culturally elite readers of the NYT.
47
Society would be greatly improved if people stopped listening to rap, which strikes me as a list of complaints from school drop-outs.
58
@Eugene Windchy. How about we take better care of others in society? Or - if they are drop-outs we can just forget about them? Life is hard - in different ways for different people. You think rap music is the root cause? That is not based in reality and hardly going to solve society’s ills.
6
@Melissa Maybe not the "root cause", but how is it helping?
12
@Melissa Let’s get rid of it anyway. It’s ignorant and degrading.
14
Sweden was an exceptionally peaceful, low crime society that was at ease with itself. The policies of its "progressive" politicians have ensured that those days are over, for good. Now it has all kinds of problems that its longstanding principles - like soft sentencing - are poorly equipped to handle.
74
@Edmund L Sweden was at ease with itself because it was a largely homogeneous society. What do you refer to when you mention “progressive” politicians?
7
@Melissa
Japan wants to retain its homogeneity - and relatively peaceful society which is why it accepts accepts very few immigrants.
39
@Michael
That's WHY War Criminal Japan has historically Invaded & Despoiled OTHER nations, i.e. China, Morae, The Philippines, and 20 + Other Nations in Asia ' the Pacific Rim...
...And then went home , and has continued to pretend for 80+ YEARS that it has always been a peace-loving nation.
We're NOT BUYING IT !
8
Generous social welfare packages, like Sweden offers, only work in a society that appreciates them . Appreciation stems from a culture that instills a sense of social responsibility.
66
@MAS
Quote: "a culture that instills a sense of social responsibility."
Well, if that's the measuring stick, then the U.S. has failed miserably. January 6, 2021 and vaccine refuseniks are only two examples of how.
19
@Lisa Simeone
False equivalency.
The U.S. doesn't have anything approaching the social support infrastructure that Sweden has for assisting its lower income residents.
19
Life is getting hard everywehere, even in wealthy and prosperous Nordic countries like Sweden, Denmark.
It is not only about poverty, lack of education, or housing but also about the diminishing opportunities of jobs, e.g. crafts, carpentry, mechanic that require mid level of education. These countries used to offer these kinds of work with very good level of income and high quality of life. Not anymore. Stuff is imported cheaply from China, no need for repair. Most such jobs are taken by new immigrants who offer their services at much lower rates at the expense of the original people ( low-mid level educated white swedish and early immigrants).
And these people cant catch up with the newly created artificial intelligence jobs. They become unemployed living on social welfare, which is increasingly denied to poor, young, crime leaning boys. What comes is these gang related problems. Dont put the blame on rap music. Boys have to be part of something to feel achieved, and to have presence in the society. Unfortunately gangs offer this progress.
24
I would not draw comparisons to American Hip-hop culture since I don't know much about it! Only say that hip-hop is an effective tool for spreading these greedy-corrupt-violent-male-dominated-supremacist-fantasies we see realized in our streets.
There is some hope in Sweden though. Some minority people are speaking out against the profound bigotry within these "patriarchal honor cultures" creating the violence.
These voices need to be promoted and reassured that confronting negative stuff within is the right thing to do. It takes great courage to come forward and criticize ones own culture, especially when it is a very religious culture (think ethno-religious facism). Many of these people must live with threats to their lives for choosing to speak out, and doing so is really serving the broader society.
We must fight against harmful and outdated cultural practices even when these exist in minority cultures. These corrupting cultural practices (negative social control, antiintegration, antimiscegenation, and persectution of apostates, persecution of non-believers etc) are incompatible with sustaining an inclusive democratic social model.
Legitimizing facist minority cultures only legitimizes more facism in society (it is already starting to happen). It is probably difficult for Americans to accept this fact - essentially that intersectionality doesn't work - but it needs to be brought to light.
20
I only like that progressive insurance ad that uses an aged (gray bearded, ‘n all) X rapper group… with singing some thing about “aahhh rocky roaddd..... chocolata Chocolada, Chocolada, Lotta Lotta Chocolada… Bee beep…” and the older “Mom“ figure starts enjoying, rollin her arms‘round to. that old rap, while daughter of this “Mom“ figure wanders off to her room, Exasperated by how her mom can be so “lame”, or what-evvvuuuur!
2
"Last year, there were at least 342 shootings resulting in 46 death". To put this into comparison, I believe there were 400+ murders in Chicago. But the similarity between The US and Sweden is this: These murders are NOT being perpetrated by Hunters, collectors, target-shooters & etc.
The media would have so much more credibility & would reduce so much friction on this divisive issue, if only they would acknowledge this fact. NYT, Please tell me why you/ they won't ?
20
@MAS
Actually, 800 homicides in Chicago in 2021, and over 4,300 shootings.
6
Dear @MAS: I misunderstand your comparison; are you trying to compare the relatively low amounts of shooting in this once wonderful Scandinavian country known as Sweden, that traditionally has had a populace that is very well acquainted with guns and such and might Haveonly suffered from  have Accidental unfortunate discharges of these weapons amongst their hunters collectors and etc.?
3
class struggle transcends identity and race
8
@akephalos Sometimes, but usually not . . .
5
Completely incorrect.
The highest selling hip-hop songs of all-time are about killing someone, sexually abusing a woman, violent fantasy of retribution on police, and glorification of large sums of money and jewelry. It’s just facts it is not an opinion. Hip-hop tapped into DNA of certain males all around the world and set them in fire in a way no form of art has. “Heroes/villains with guns” is the only other form of art that comes somewhat close but not really.
58
With all of its big generalizations, I agree with your very succinct view.
4
" a horrible reality we have in Sweden" Is that why so many immigrants want to live there?
8
I’m sure they would love to “glow across the ocean“ to I’ere if they could...., you’ll take ‘em wontcha?
1
There’s a thin line between an artist and the honest representation of their reality in all its ugliness and brutality versus the embracement, celebration and nihilistic mythification of this reality. A large portion of recent rap music falls under the latter category. It’s about gang members boasting about their violent crime, their depraved hedonism and their lavish lifestyles (see crime does pay), with mawkish intervals of self-pity and crocodile tears to sway music critics and the naive to believe they are the real victims not the people they are robbing or killing. Ridiculous.
43
All this talk of "dismantling" various "cultures". Yet for all its toxic masculinity, homophobia, and misogyny I never hear anyone talking about "dismantling hip hop culture."
55
immigration and diversity is not a good thing.
24
Rap/"hip hop" is always no good for a society.
24
I am a Swede by birth and have spent 1/3 of my life in Sweden including working at their Children's hospital in Stockholm. I love the country and it's people-it is a diverse culture with people from everywhere. When I went to Sweden to live there for 3 years, they gave me Swedish classes to improve my language as well as helped to navigate apartment hunting, and how to enroll my children in schools and all the things that are so different there. This was despite Sweden considering me to be an immigrant-they have refused me citizenship since I have not spent 5 consecutive years there. The one thing that I see so strongly in this article and the comments is that unless you have lived in a country long term, it is very difficult to appreciate it's culture and how that leads to it's problems. I don't consider myself in a position to truly analyze the root cause of Sweden's issues.
Sweden is a kind place that embraces the right of humans to have a home and safety. They have taken in many migrants over the years and I believe that is the right thing to have done. I think though, you have to offer integration and acceptance and excellent education in order for them to reach their highest potential and live a happy life.
18
@Maria Saavedra
You say "They have taken in many migrants over the years and I believe that is the right thing to have done."
Why is it the right thing, if it doesn't work?
31
@Maria Saavedra Hej Maria, thank you for sharing your experience.
2
@MAS What is the alternative? Let people starve - after the assertion of American hegemony in Syria failed, one of many factors that have contributed to the utter distruction of Syrian society and their painful civil war instigated by Russia, China, and the US?
4
So which is it? Culture or individuals?
If it were up to the left, they'd either blame white culture or they'd say it's a few bad apples. Never, ever, any other culture or subculture.
Personally, I think it comes down to personal choice, but that's an impossible argument in the United States where everything stems from systemic racism (without defining the system).
It follows people will posit its someone other than the people who pulled the trigger.
27
@Matt
Not once in my entire life have I ever heard anything blamed on "white culture". I've never even heard the phrase "white culture".
3
@Matt Oh, the system has been clearly defined. Read Richard Rothstein's The Color of Law to see how systemic racism works.
6
To certain other commenters: This article is about Sweden, not the USA. Why does everything have to devolve back to a discussion of American dysfunction?
I guess one could argue that the USA "exported" bad old hip-hop to poor Sweden. One could argue too about all the bad things and concepts other countries "imported" to the USA as they were not invented here (e.g. firearms, cocaine, opium, fascism, communism, etc.)
In general, when the article is about place x, it is about place x, not the USA.
11
For better or worse, the US casts a very long shadow, economically, militarily, and yes, culturally. And, Rap with its associated misogyny and violence, is an American cultural export. Any discussion of Rap cannot avoid a reference back to the US, any more than a discussion of Opera must refer back to Italy.
21
I’ve noticed that 99 percent of the commenters are from the US would like to hear the discussion with Swedish People not Americans
5
@Eugene Spencer Fair point, except the article appears in an American newspaper, written in English.
6
Watched his video. Cliche and derivative. Nobody deserves to die but making videos featuring you pulling triggers has been shown to increase your chances of being shot.
33
I am convinced that all the problems we are seeing with this young generation are the result of parenting. Children grow up now like weeds in a vacant lot. Probably started with my generation in the '60s. The Summerhill crowd. We failed to teach our children the importance of values and discipline. Too much free spirit. Everything has to be entertaining. It is a tragedy that is picking up momentum.
We are herd animals and if we don't spend time reading books, playing games, going to their sporting events with our babies, they will find others to meet that need.
28
@Karen Stidger
Im convinced the problems we are seeing with any generation is that people keep making more and more people and think the results are "going to be different this time".
11
@Karen Stidger Our generation that grew up in the sixties did not become violent misogynist gangsters spraying bullets around their streets.
11
Oh please, I’m almost 60 but am so tired of people complaining about the younger generations, as if ours were so peaceful and loving.
3
46 people are shot out of a population of ten million? And the writer uses the word carnage? Come on. Seriously?
19
It’s 46 gun deaths (not shootings), but, yes, I totally agree with your point. They are more like the worst of the best and still have way less gun violence than the US and many other countries. The writing in this article is highly exaggerated. I’m disappointed in the NYT.
11
@William In the US it would be called any day of the week but in more civilized places its a big deal.
21
@William what we call a normal day in the US still horrifies others in the world. We are jaded. Maybe they are not.
23
America exports toxic culture.
40
@Yossarian eesh. Who's importing it when it comes to this particular topic? Crickets.
9
@Yossarian
There are no exports without customers.
Maybe Sweden should stop importing toxic culture. Or maybe Sweden just has some bad people, just like everywhere else.
14
According to the book "To Live and Defy LA," violence in rap lyrics increased as crime in urban areas increased, not the other way around. Young men and women were reflecting on their surroundings.
10
@Gregory
In the past, that was true.
"Reflection" now sounds so poetic. Hip Hop has been reflecting for almost 50 years. The "Message" by Grandmaster Flash had a message.
Now it is a mantra of violence and false assumptions about manhood, and has become a culture of 'getting paid," without remorse.
That is the reality here on the streets of Bed-Stuy, where we are surrounded by such "reflections" that have become a self fulfilling prophecy for far too many young people.
24
In Canada, Jamaica, and Mexico, gun violence is supported by guns smuggled in from the United States, which of course has very lax laws around obtaining guns. The article doesn't state where the guns that are getting into the hands of the Swedish gangs originate, or from where they are being smuggled, as I am supposing they are being smuggled into the country. Identifying the source and restricting the supply of firearms would be a good place to start.
18
I'm old enough to remember a time when the left would rave about Sweden as a model society. Now the model society we hear so much about is Denmark.
Just so happens that Denmark is the one with the strict immigration policies, unlike Sweden. I hope a (easily foreseeable) lesson was learned.
The Scandinavian societies are extremely rare and delicate, care should be taken, radical policies (such as generous immigration) that can shift societies within a generation should be handled with extra care.
113
@AlexNB "radical policies (such as generous immigration) that can shift societies within a generation should be handled with extra care." And that folks is what it's really all about.
37
@AlexNB
It’s true, Sweden doesn’t know who it is anymore.
They’ll eventually turn right wing and try to purge themselves of immigrants, mark my words. I can’t say that would be a good thing, but that’s how humans work. Inviting in a lot of culturally incompatible immigrants from unstable countries was clearly not a good thing for the Swedes.
42
@AlexNB
Unfortunately similar violence trend is observed in Denmark as well. Indeed Swedish and Danish gangs appear to be related as the two countries are quite close to each other both geographically and linguistically.
6
There were 46 gun-related deaths in Sweden last year? That’s a bad cookout in the US. I hope they get a handle on this soon. And don’t let an NRA-like group get a grip on politicians.
18
@Liberty Apples
However, Sweden has a long tradition of hunting , shooting ( biathlon anyone?) that SAFETLY existed for centuries. At least until some modern demographic changes have occurred.
17
Gangs and drugs and a culture that glorifies these. Seven year olds whose ambition is to be a rapper.
Daily verbal noise and casual petty violence.
Gangs and drugs and a music culture that glorifies these.
75
Sadly the Police in Sweden are much too soft, I believe controlled by Political Correctness. They have to up their game because they are not doing a service to the majority of the population. And this includes the Muslim immigrants who are decent and hard working.
37
@JHM
Sure. because 'tough police' approach in the U.S. has worked so effectively. Seems we cant build enough prisons fast enough.
9
@JHM I think that tough police is a rather short sighted solution to the problem in Sweden. As the articles has mentioned, the problems stem from the suburbs, where education and living standards are poorer than in the cities. If you have a tough police, you might continue to keep the criminals from the cities, but wont defeat the root cause.
5
@Elaine Depends on who you "let in..".., and, why not outsource the needed penitentiaries to the countries of their origin (win/win?)
9
"Dagens Nyheter, Sweden’s newspaper of record, published an analysis of everyone arrested or prosecuted for gun offenses since 2017. About 85 percent were people born abroad, or had at least one parent who was."
And yet the liberal elite still decry those who seek to stop illegal immigration to US, to Europe, to Australia and elsewhere as racists. These same elites can't understand what drives otherwise sane people to vote for Trump.
114
Or maybe those who favor immigration recognize the failure of these countries to integrate newcomers by housing them in projects and forcing them into poor neighborhoods with less opportunity for education and employment. Did you read the article?
17
@Mark
Ok, "85% of those arrested or prosecuted for gun offenses were people born abroad or had at least one parent who was."
But what is the overall percentage of immigrants in the Swedish population? In other words, how many of the immigrants in Sweden are actually violent criminals? I'll bet that's a much, much smaller percentage.
That's the thing about statistics. Very easy to manipulate depending on what questions are being asked, and by whom.
9
@Mark
Where in that piece of data does it say they are illegal immigrants? Immigrants are the cause of white boy becoming rapists and gangbangers? What next, climate disasters are immigrants' fault too?
4
Gangster rap is only a reaction to a failing society. The roots to the violence are found in hopelessness and alienation.
24
@Peter - more like capitalist exploitation and perpetuation of hopelessness and alienation by encouraging misogyny, self-destructive gang behaviors and gun violence.
19
Then why are the rich prep school kids listening to it?
5
@gw Yes lets blame it on everyone but the perps. Am I allowed to even refer to them as criminals. You quote "Dumlee, a convicted rapist affiliated with a gang called Death Patrol", like he's a solid citizen.
18
Perhaps it’s just implied but the article doesn’t address the chronic poverty and failure to assimilate among the immigrant and refugee communities. Gangsta rap would appear to be a product of, and reaction to, the environment from which it comes. And where are all those guns coming from?
24
@Zelda Beckowitz
The article doesn’t address the chronic poverty because it seems in this case that both the victim and his foes (some of which seem to have killed him) are super-rich and successful singers, whose wealth is far above the average Sweden one.
This is also the case for many American gangsta-rap crime victims and/or crime culprits, who eluded poverty many years ago and seem to have forgotten it perfectly.
So for once, let us keep the lenient justifications in the bottom drawer.
21
"... about 85% born abroad ...". Born where abroad?
28
Nobody came to Sweden on a slave ship in chains; if they are so angry with their adopted country which they chose, maybe they should be given a one way ticket back to their homeland.
I guess stunningly generous social welfare programs aren't the panacea to all that ails society after all.
210
@Alexander
and I may add: or the country their parents adopted.
18
Sweden may want to look to their more egalitarian neighbor, Norway, and the many ways Norwegians assimilate immigrants into their society. The disparity between rich and poor is not as prevalent and immigrants are respected and not reduced to poverty and having to respond to their environment in desperate ways.
4
@Karen Ada The difference in immigrant assimilation between Norway and Sweden is not because of income inequality or level of poverty but in the shear number of refugees that ended up on the shores of Sweden in 2015.
44
It seems to be similar if not exactly the same as these groups act in the US as well. It’s not exactly a secret that many supposed rap “artists” are either themselves seriously involved in felonious activities, or work with those who are directly involved.
I know I certainly am not going to loose sleep over the convicted rapists premature passing. My biggest concern is that the US was the birthplace of such groups and it now appears that they have unfortunately spread to the rest of the world. It certainly will be interesting to see if others can eliminate these groups and if so hopefully we can then employ their methods.
33
@David Hmm. I recall the Al Capones that came from "foreign" countries and how the mob "came" to America. Yes, Eliot Ness was a real person. People seem to think rappers invented gangs, gangsters and the violence that threatened to spread across the US. They are simply the gangsters of this generation. And BTW. "The Untouchables" still has a following.
2
@Glenda It has a following because it's a great show. Whereas rap...
3
@Glenda
Al Capone was born in Brooklyn ...
5
There was a time when practically every indigenous culture required that in order to enter adulthood you had to undergo a dangerous form of initiation.
The West thought it outgrew that it......probably because of the endless wars that once sucked up its youth.
In a generally post-war "peaceful" era, we find that it really didn't, we just replaced it with teen smoking, drinking, drugging and gangs. Tattoos, once consigned to the ashcan of culture now festoon the arm of your local cop and gangbanger alike.
We don't have acceptable coming-of-age paths that truly address the angst of teens. Into that void has stepped every tobacco, vape, beer and drug operation.
Time for a tribal Indaba folks. Were just not getting what the youth is asking for.
30
@African by Birth
Wise observations, and solutions to these problems ought to be doable.
3
This is one of those articles in which one sees, more than anything else, the very different realities and perspectives between European concerns regarding crime and American.
As horrific as the killing Einar is -- the actual level of violence in Sweden and most of Europe -- is far lower than anywhere in the US.
But perceptions matter. And perceptions can result in reactionary "solutions" that are far out of proportion to the actual problem.
This is the real danger confronting Sweden, a country that until not long ago was a largely homogenous and prosperous social democracy.
Various factors encouraging in-migration including the expansion of the EU, the collapse of the Soviet Union and civil unrest and warfare in the Middle East have converged since around 1990 to alter the ethnic mix found in Sweden's urban areas.
It has also altered the relative prosperity of Sweden's overall population with well-off "native" Swedes and a new, much poorer "ethnic" underclass.
While he was a native born Swede, Einar's music talents took him across the growing divide between the rich "native Swedes" and poorer immigrants.
Anyone who watches current Swedish TV police procedurals is familiar with the growing fear in Sweden regarding immigrant "gangs". Art reflects its society. And today, Swedish shows reveal the growing fears even if for the large part of the population such concerns are unwarranted.
There is fear brewing in Sweden and fear breeds intolerance.
Watch out.
30
If Sweden would have put strict limits on immigration decades ago, it would have been able to maintain its previous low-crime quality of life.
Western countries with high quality of life, and generous welfare, are obviously a magnet for the whole rest of the world.
While this imbalance exists, and while the West continues to allow immigration, we can all expect increasing crime, downward pressure on salaries and upward pressure on housing.
If we would just speak clearly about immigration, and not tip-toe around with pc-verbage, we would be able to make logical decisions, without the knee-jerk emotions that lead to muddles outcomes.
Every country has to put its best interest ahead of the best interest of foreigners.
Is that not the very definition of national self-determination?
114
@liz What are your suggestions re immigration? Complaining is one thing, putting forth a cogent plan is another. Give it a go.
1
@DMZ The obvious solution: drastically limiting immigration from the developing world.
26
@DMZ Suggestion for immigration? Why, thanks for asking. My suggestion for Sweden and other European countries (I leave the United States out of this, as this is not an article about the US) is that they immediately slam on the brakes to immigration into their country. Stop immigration totally for a period & then retool their immigration system to something like a points-based system used by the Canadians. They get exactly the kind of immigrants they want (generally highly educated), taking their time and being extremely choosy about who they let in, and further that they take small numbers every year, not the flood of past years. I would add one last thing: that they begin a vigorous and sustained program of stripping of citizenship and deportation of immigrants or children of immigrants (back to the home country of their families) who have shown by their actions that they are not integrating well into Swedish life.
27
I'm an immigrant from the U.S. living in Japan. I had to fully document my health and legal status from my country of origin before I could even step off the boat. That's the way it should be for any country which cares about its people and culture.
88
@God : pretty much a requirement for most countries. Poverty and inequality is the real problem . That needs to be addressed worldwide.
16
@Laurie
Those are mostly the legal requirements in the US, but even among legal immigrants there are large numbers of people who cannot conduct the ordinary business of life in English; and we have large numbers of immigrants who have bypassed the immigration process entirely.
14
Art reflects the life around us.
6
It’s a difficult situation when violence toward others and sociopathic behavior are considered to be cool and edgy by the youth culture.
68
@Jeff In this country (the US) violence toward others, in language, at least, is expressed regularly and publicly by members of the government, bred in part by the sociopathic tendencies of the Former Guy.
7
@BSD I actually blame Rupert Murdoch as much as I blame anyone else. I wish Australia would muzzle him and his organization.
5
A large segment of what's called rap is inextricably intertwined with criminality as a theme: shooting, killing, getting shot, going to prison. It would be nice if we could be exporting something other than rap to the rest of the world.
54
What about the violent Hollywood films we export too? Rock music?
4
@Regina Giddens Nowhere near the same. Few people decide actualize a life like James Bond's.
11
Ridiculous to claim that rap music, no matter how violent the lyrics, has anything to do with gun violence. Gun violence stems from desperation caused by poverty, combined with access to guns. Untreated mental illness has an effect too, but those first two factors are the crucial ones.
Gangster rap emanates from the same condition that gun violence does, desperate poverty and a backlash against that and the racist society that exacerbates it. But it doesn't cause the gun violence.
If Sweden wants to reduce the gun crime, it has to reduce its poverty levels and do something about the racism that keeps non-white people in impoverished ghettos. It should also reduce access to guns. But good luck doing either, America is a lot more advanced in racial equality, and a lot richer, and America has managed to do exactly nothing about gun violence.
19
@Dan Stackhouse Yes, the government in Sweden should work to help immigrant communities. But integration is not a one-way street where the receiving country has to bend over backwards to adjust its norms and customs to immigrants. Immigrant communities also need to make changes in their customs in order to integrate into the new home country of their choosing. It appears that many, and specifically the young men, in the immigrant communities in Sweden and the other Nordic countries, are not making that effort.
42
@Dan Stackhouse Exactly: Print more money and throw that at the problem because it's worked so well in the US.
6
@Dan Stackhouse I agree!
What are the underlying issues?
1
“Most of the rappers are not criminals, they are artists. They tell of a horrible reality we have in Sweden.”
… says Ms Nilsson, Einar’s mother.
Indeed very sad to see what has happened to that country. What in the world made them think that immigration from totally different cultures would be a success? 30 years ago, Sweden was a place I could have imagined living in, today no thanks.
56
@Marie “I would only move to a country that doesn’t accept immigrants.”
11
@David
And *I* would only move to a country whose culture I could fully adopt, and that could mostly accept me.
For example, I like Japan as much as I like Western Europe, but I could never fit in in Japan long term.
8
"many in the country are debating whether the still-young genre can change"
Rap and hip hop has been around since the 1970's. What you're describing is not a "still-young" genre. It's something that's continually copied (ripped off). It's easy to produce (google "beats for rap" and you'll be offered thousands for sale) and distribute.
16
Pretty sure the quote was referring to Sweden and rap’s growing popularity there, not here in the US.
6
I am also a bit surprised by this article. We progressives view Sweden and other Scandinavian countries as bastions of peace and emblems of effective social democracy. We assume that because they have (perhaps had?) generous social welfare packages that they are able to avert and prevent outbursts of violent crime like this. But as usual in life, the picture is not so clear cut. Sweden has changed apparently and even they are operating in an unforgiving neo-liberal environment, where intro-country inequality is rising due to the inevitable slashing of assistance programs. Apparently, the negative effects of globalization are affecting this otherwise stable country too. I am not blind to the issue of migration here either. I always viewed Sweden as immigrant-friendly, but maybe this is changing too.
19
The article states that ‘…That carnage had long been seen as an issue confined to ethnically diverse outer “suburbs,” where poorer housing feels dislocated’.
Integrating new immigrants into the population is not achieved by having them largely settle ‘in the outer suburbs. This sounds very much like what the French have with similar problems: banlieues
1
@B. Sorry, the "Cadillac-driving Welfare Queen" trope is a relic of the Reagan era and has been disproven many times over. In case you've been asleep for the last 30 years, the trajectory of NYC's poorest citizens has done nothing but rise (pandemic aberrations aside). More HS graduates, more college-bound, more small business owners, less violence, less reliance on welfare. Face the facts.
10
@AV Sweden is marvelous, my favorite Scandinavian country...but they have their youth who choose to do the wrong thing as it seems easier, and who get along with thugs of whatever birth...just like in the US in fact.
6
If gangs are a problem, law enforcement resources should be focused on gangs. If the gangs are watched closely, it shouldn't be too difficult to find them violating the law. Were the rapper's kidnappers identified and arrested? Music is not the issue, it's law enforcement.
7
@Ikeaboy Is “not enough law enforcement” the root cause?
1
It is certainly true that social structure is key to understanding not only crime but also cultural phenomena like hip-hop. But what's often overlooked in all this talk about how much hip-hop merely "reflects" the character of life in black and other marginalized communities is the degree to which, in fact, many of the genre's defining tropes have been untrue slanders of these communities--caricatures and exaggerations--contrived by artists, music producers, and media corporations who've made untold millions, even billions, of dollars peddling these often odious notions as some kind of representative truths. Which, tragically, they often become.
16
An echo-chamber of counterproductive aberrant beliefs and behavior, too long dawned on by liberal media and pandering politicians.
5
Music never killed anybody. Hip hop is rhythmically simple and, if good, verbally complex. The lyrical content is the artist’s choice, but because it is an art form in which untrained talent can often thrive with little or no sponsorship, it is disproportionately represented by lower social classes seeking upward mobility. (How many investment bankers or doctors moonlight as MC’s?) When it’s good, it uplifts or faithfully describes a reality which not all are privy to; when its bad it is a grotesque caricature and transparent imitation. You can often find both within the repertoire of a single artist (see 2Pac, Biggie)
12
There may be a beat behind them, but as to the lyrics themselves, or the "artist", seldom if ever actually singing or music.
6
The Sweden of today isn't the Sweden of the 90s. Guess things were too dull so they needed to spice it up a bit. They succeded. Enjoy.
29
@JB
Certainly Sweden has seen an influx of immigrants in recent decades which has changed the fabric of the society. The segregation and inequities the article highlights are the result of this rapid change to a society that was rather homogenous before.
Folks, hip hop is a reflection of life remember “The Message” by Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five. The problem is not the music, the problem is the obstacles those with less resources have to overcome.
8
@Richard - Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" and "New York, New York" were fresh, poignant and incisive back in the 80's. How has music evolved over 30+ years? It hasn't, because it's controlled by an industry more interested in profitable exploitation than artistry or positive social change.
9
It isn't music; it is cheerleading.
But why be surprised about violent music when, as we observed yesterday, politicians have been cheerleading and developing violence as a a political form in the world's oldest democracy?
16
Good point! Our politicians are acting like gangs. Red vs Blue and they are willing to hurt us all.
3
The music has nothing to do with the violence. It's a misdirection.
It's about immigration from violent places into a culture that is not a melting pot but one where immigrants live separately from the rest of society, alienated and not fitting in anywhere except gangs.
True assimilation is almost impossible in Sweden but so is talking about it. This is an extremely repressed country when it comes to race.
It is wokeness pushed to an extreme.
32
Musical lyrics fall under free speech, even if they promote objectionable behavior. We must defend the right to produce any kind of music. If someone who was inspired by gangster rap committed a crime against me, it would be on account of that person's choice.
1
As an American who lives in Sweden, I'm disappointed in this article. First of all, this sentence, "But Einar’s death — in a rich part of Stockholm, rather than a suburb", is not true. He was murdered in Rinkeby, which is a poorer part of Stockholm that is, in fact, riddled with the problems you describe. However, you also failed to mention that his mother, Lena Nilsson, is a Guldbagge-winning actress (Swedish Oscar) here in Sweden and Einar was the beneficiary of a lot of privilege aside from being white. Gang violence is nothing new in neighborhoods like Rinkeby, Angered (Gothenburg), or Rosengård (Malmö), but it is only now that white kid was murdered that suddenly people care. I don't have the space to debate immigration policy failures in Sweden, but I can say that as an immigrant here, from the West no less, even I have seen how the system here fails so many immigrants. They are discriminated against from the second they set foot here and are essentially left to figure things out on their own. This is not an immigrant problem, this is a policy problem. All of you in the comments here harping on about how "oh wow I thought Sweden was perfect" should probably not make comments like this. As an American, I can tell you that even with problems like this, Sweden is still a far better place to live than the US: a country where many families are one medical emergency away from bankruptcy, school shootings are commonplace and racial inequality is still a massive problem.
216
@Diandra - I agree. But it's interesting to see all the comments here making political judgments about an entire country, most of them coming from people who have never been to Sweden and see the whole society through their own political filter. My daughter and her family moved to Sweden a couple of years ago and have never been happier.
11
@Diandra Thanks for this insight. As many commenters here mention, there's a rush to draw conclusions, such as this being the result of accepting refugees. There's not enough focus on what happens to those refugees once they arrive.
8
Really? looks like shootings and racial inequality are a problem there too.
7
I’m glad the New York Times is finally starting to cover the reality of Europe and not the Disneyland they make believe it is. Having lived and worked in Europe for over 35 years I know they struggle with healthcare (yes healthcare), immigration, racism, and poverty. I always knew they were certain parts of Brussels that I could not go to or London without watching my back. But the New York Times is always presenting Europe and especially Sweden as some type of socialist paradise with full integration, no gun violence, and no drug violence with universal healthcare for everyone (the truth on healthcare is more complex than Bernie Sanders presents). The truth is much more nuanced and layered and the quicker people discover that the quicker we will find realistic solutions to our own problems.
84
@Paul : I have lived in Europe for 35 years. No where is perfect but as an American having lived in 3 different countries here I feel much more comfortable here and safer on all those points than in the USA. Guns are just not as common nor easy to get as in the USA. The statistics prove that. I have also never had the worry of accessing health care as happens in the USA. It is impossible to be without it.
17
@Paul
As an immigrant of color in US, I’d say life here is infinitely better for us stateside than in Europe-impossible to work as a professional there - only jobs I saw poc doing were menial ones.
2
The article states “… Sweden has for at least six years been struggling with a tide of gang violence that has contributed to its shift from one of the safest countries in the world to among Europe’s most violent. Last year, there were at least 342 shootings resulting in 46 deaths (up from 25 shootings in 2015), along with dozens of bombings.”. Ehat it diesnt dtate is what specifically triggered this culture change 6 years ago in 2015. Ask Angela Merkel, who famously stated that “Multiculturalism doesn’t work.” Time to stop seeing the EU as a utopia that we can’t match.
20
It's not rap music. It's discrimination/lack of economic opportunity. Just like the US.
The music is a symptom, not the cause.
6
At least in the Northeast, private schools, colleges, and corporations have been stretching credentials in order to hire people of color. The opportunity is there for those who have developed perseverance and a work ethic.
14
Sweden's woke socialists and democratic socialists will soon learn from & copy their neighbour Denmark (who reversed positions on migration and immigration to support and defend their culture just as other nations have the absolute right to defend their own cultures).
This, just as many progressive mayors in the long Democrat run US cities are beginning to realise what wanton chaos is due to their "selective" open-mindedness towards the minority of violent folks in their cities. The consequences for the majority of people have been recorded to be used for ads at mid terms.
Imagine the reaction from "progressives" if a country singer started using music to call for misogyny, racism, promoting and condoning the kind of crime & violence the "gangster" hip-hop musicians do?
52
What you label “white” are in fact ethnic Swedes. The indigenous native people who have lived there for thousands of years.
36
@Amit Hajela
Not ironically, the most harmed group in Sweden by three+ decades of government import of 3rd world immigrants is the indigenous Sami. You couldn't find nicer people than the Sami and a stable, peaceful, respectful culture more different in every way than the 3rd worlders.
11
It’s interesting to me that Sweden has this growing problem and also took a “libertarian” approach to Covid. Methinks the Swedes have an attitude problem.
5
Sweden used to be all about heavy metal, death metal and Abba. Wow times have changed
3
Swemolia bit off more than it could chew.
6
What I find glaringly missing from this article is where do all the guns come from? I thought the Nordic countries were bastions of liberal democracy and social safety nets? What are the gun laws there and how are these gangs getting them?? Where’s Wallander?
299
@Renee
Europe has much stronger and more organized mafia groups than the US- southern Italian, Albanian, etc. They have less street crime, more social services and more powerful mafia, we have much greater street crime, fewer social services, stronger law enforcement, and less powerful mafia.
4
@Renee A once homogenous society built on trust has been shattered by people who do not respect the law. Sweden was and still is under the mistaken impression that the world is full of love and innocence.
73
Gun laws in Sweden, as in most of Europe, are very strict, but that doesn’t mean people don’t have access to them, or that there’s no market for illegal guns. Nonetheless, the laws still work. Even though murders almost double in six years, at 46 murders last year, Sweden still has fewer murders than states with similar population like Georgia (849), North Carolina (707), and Michigan (612).
47
Sweden, with a population of over 10 million, had 46 homicides in 2021. Chicago, with a little over 2 million residents, had over 800 homicides.
Yep, Sweden is definitely a clarion call for safer cities.
215
@David Eike
Only a few parts/neighbourhoods of some cities in Sweden have these issues, just like Chicago.
12
Many cities, including Albuquerque, St Louis, Indianapolis, Detroit, and Baltimore have a higher per capita murder rate than Chicago.
15
@David Eike Hm, think the article was about the violent death of a Swedish pop star. Don't see where or how Chicago comes in.
8
The music is a mere reflection of reality, that's correct. People don't like the new music because they don't like the new reality. Imagine this music would be banned chinese-style, instantly and completely. It wouldn't fix anything, it surely wouldn't end gang violence.
I'd say poor Sweden, but they're a democracy. They chose this path.
21
@Sebastian
Reality? Sweden has cradle to grave social services. Immigrants are given healthcare, job training counseling services and housing. Anyone in Sweden who wants a job, food and clean place to live can have those things.
No, rap music and crime in Sweden is not a reflection of any type of Nordic reality.
9
@Sebastian I never hear urban gang members playing Chicago or the Moody Blues.
7
I think it is time we admit that preaching sexual aggression and gun violence as virtues, the inevitable trophies and swagger of a hard knock life, is really praying to our own worst instincts. If we truly believe that even in the worst of times human's have a choice, then the mantra of gangster rap is about caving in. The sinner has to sin, it's only fair. And it is fascinating how this toxicity can be exported apparently. Exquisitely male and cold.
294
@teeceenyc I hear where you're coming from but I suspect the lyrics of Abba are in the same vein or similar to whatever is happening in present day Swedish music.
1
@teeceenyc - I've been saying the same thing for years, but my comments were never included in NYT comment sections, I assume because someone thought criticism of rap and hip-hop lyrics was "racist." To me race is beyond the point. The point is promotion of sexism and violence, whatever the source.
41
The depressing thing about this piece is how as human beings, we are probably hard-wired to fight each other. In the absence of a government war, these boys have nothing better to do than pick fights, puff out their chests and kill one another over inflated dreams of wealth and glory.
154
If we're hardwired to fight each other, then we're also hardwired to love each other.
6
I think you missed the part about the background of those committing these crimes. Not all human beings have the same behavioural characteristics.
21
@NoName The most basic function of civilization is to control the violence of young men.
17
Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries always have a good press, how do they hide their bad sides so well?
56
I’m not sure, n1789...I’m an American living here in Sweden for the past 13 years, and the cover ups, lies, hypocrisy, and ignorance of facts and truth here is astonishing. There is a tiny corridor of acceptable opinion, and most of the population goes along with whatever the authorities demand of them. The global face of Sweden, in all its seeming perfection, is not at all the reality. Look at its scandalous covid strategy, its falsehoods on the use of taxpayer money (we really don’t get as many benefits as the Swedish media/politicians claim, and we pay exorbitant amounts), its denial of systemic racism, its worship of police and unaccountability of police violence, its draconian and punishment-based drug laws...I could go on all day.
Sweden is a mess.
13
@n1789 Sweden does not allow the press to release the e
3
@n1789
It's not hidden to Swedes or those in the EU and UK.
As Americans have steadily become jingoistic and nationalist since the 1980s, we've also become world-stupid and utterly unaware of other nations and people.
10
I lost my stomach for hip hop after coming to the conclusion that it was not just a reflection of societal problems, but an active part of the cycle. It’s not a storyline that I had expected the NYTimes to have the stomach to explore … but I guess it can be discussed in the context of Sweden. small step forward
444
@Simon You hit it spot on.
15
Isn’t this the same thing happening here in the US?
While I won’t be around anymore I wonder if hip hop music will still be a genre 50 years from now. I mean we are still listening to the Beatles, carol King, and others who’s music has stood the test of time and still sounds good.
Will these young men and women grow out of the gang mentality and become ordinary non violent citizens?
112
@Charles alexander
"I wonder if hip hop music will still be a genre 50 years from now"
Hip-hop has already been around for more than 50 years. And its iconic artists like Tupac and NWA are still being played decades after they released their work. It may not be your cup of tea but hip-hop, and many other genres you may not like, is certain to stick around and be sustaining music for many people. Such is the nature of subjective taste.
"Will these young men and women grow out of the gang mentality and become ordinary non violent citizens?"
Perhaps we should ask that of everyone involved in the January 6 insurrection. I wonder what their musical tastes are.
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@Charles alexander Yes, just like these earlier genres, hip-hop and rap will still be around in 50 years. We still listen to 60s rock despite the raft of overdose deaths that cast a pall over the genre in its heyday. Louis Armstrong was sent to reform school after being arrested for firing a gun into the air on New Year's Eve. Even if a subset of rap music may be characterized by an obsession with crime and violence, in the end it's still music, and will follow the same trajectory towards canonization as jazz R&B, rock, funk, etc.
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@Jason .........The January 6th question is very interesting. I wonder if a New York Times reporter could do a story on it?
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I grew up in the U.S. during the 90’s hip hop and gangster rap boom. The music was fresh, exciting fantasy for many of us teens. What’s problematic is when the content spills over from fantasy to every day life and young folks emulate what they see and hear. 30 years later, gangster culture continues to devastatingly impact the quality of life in inner cities and creates an image issue for inner city folks who talk and act a particular way. Observationally, this seems to disproportionately impact the Black community, but I’m also thinking about the Eminem crowd. Aside from observing, I have no suggestions on how to separate music/movies from reality and give back peace and quality of life to negatively impacted segments of the population. The situation is tragically sad.
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The article rightly identifies ‘moral panic’ around the music as unhelpful, but does little to move beyond the sort of superficial account of the hip hop scene that contributes to such panic, eschewing elaboration of social and political context for gang rivalry and personal conflict. Only at the end does it locate the real story, in the rising poverty and neglect suffered by growing numbers of the people, who dwell in a culture of growing violence and misogyny. Really, what do you expect them to sing about? Pretty flowers growing in the mountain meadows?
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I wish they would sing about pretty flowers & mountain meadows. That’d be really nice.
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@Christopher - it's a vicious cycle that has made music execs very wealthy through exploiting and encouraging the very social problems they supposedly deplore.
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What did ABBA sing about?
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It is astounding to me the double standards that abound in woke, mainstream media when it comes to hip hop (a genre I happen to know well and enjoy, for the record).
Over the past decade we’ve been told that Robin Thicke and Justin Bieber, among many others, are perpetuating “rape culture” in their music. Clearly, gender activists think that music has the potential to influence real-world behavior, which is why during the Trump years, they never seemed to shut up about it.
Unless, of course, the music in question is hip-hop. In that case, why, the misogyny is mere braggadocio! The violence and gun-touting is just theatricality! The drug references aren’t really serious! No establishment journalist would dare make the case, so obvious to any average observer, that the crudely violent or drug-glorifying themes in the music either become fodder for real violence between artists or inspiration for multitudes or imitators, because journalists don’t want to fall on the wrong side of the new orthodoxy on race and gender. That would mean losing their jobs.
So we dance around the obvious, pretending not to see it — unless the rapper happens to be white, like Jack Harlow, or Lil Peep, or apparently Einar, whom I had never heard of.
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If you have followed the discussion in Sweden you would find that it doesn't have to do with race. Einar wasn't very controversial however Yasin (who isn't white to whom it may concern) is more controversial and referenced in this article as being under fire from politicians. But aside from their ethnic background you have a point.
Yasin won awards while being in jail and he was also involved in kidnapping Einar before he was killed.
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What are you even talking about. First of all, I’ve never heard Justin Bieber accused of perpetuating rape culture… second many writers have commented on the problematic relation between misogyny and hip-hop… third the only people I’ve really ever heard try to cancel any style of music is Christian conservatives. Remember them trying to cancel Rock music because it would make girls give away their virginity. Cancel culture was not invented by the “woke”. It’s been with us a long time before.
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@Michael Spare me the sanctimony and get back to me when you are willing to focus that spotlight on, for example, country music. There’s plenty of misogyny, violence, and general dysfunction in music to go around and all of it warrants being challenged. Singling out hip-hop is really just another means of negatively singling out music that has historically been associated with Black Americans as a means of the cultural “border policing” that keeps Black Americans as second class citizens in a country that they were instrumental in building.
Meanwhile, the real issue in Sweden is that they generously accepted immigrants only to dump them into isolated ghettos with little eye toward integrating these new citizens into Swedish society and a much bigger eye toward scapegoating and stereotyping. Not a recipe for success anywhere this has been done.
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