It is naive to think insanity is best assessed by seeing if someone acts on delusional beliefs. Many people quietly hold reality-defying delusional systems, bizarre, paranoid and impenetrable by rational critique.
Perhaps delusional systems serve something like religious or socio-economic systems- they provide a kind of clarity, certainty and contain anxiety.
Incel, Qnon, 'deep state' conspiracy theories serve a function-providing a (false) order to manage complex, confusing and often terrifying existential pressures.
Violent behavior is rare but insanity is not- nor so easy to discern. Usually we judge sanity as a person's ability to function without psychic pain. These paranoid systems can be compatible with holding a job, keeping thoughts secret and privately surfing the internet for consensus and comrades.
The frightening new twist is that the Republican 'consensus' that denies the reality of Trump's collaboration with Putin, illegal dirty tricks to get elected (tricks he used before he ran for office) and the insistence that patriotism means unquestioning loyalty to him. A feature of delusional systems is the rigid logic used to rationalize any discrepancies. (Like the cult that insisted their guru would break his silence before he died,then had to explain he died without speaking; so they said his silence was his message.
GOP delusional rigidity is a kind of violence to reason, the Constitution, America's national interest, democratic process, and global security.
94
You should yourself seek help. The Electoral College, not Putin, got Trump in office and maybe again in 2020.
@Sara
Incels, for one, are probably completely right that women want nothing to do with them.
12
Every conspiracy theorist should be held accountable for their followers actions and crimes.
135
Yeah, man!!
3
This is a poorly thought out proposal and if no one pushes back, I will. Bad idea!
3
Comello will wind up taking over for Neil Cavuto when Neal gets the axe .
2
People who knowingly perpetuate conspiracy theories should be held accountable for any damage they cause. It's like they're trying to incite online riots. It doesn't help when our commander in chief actively endorses them and popular media personalities like those on Fox News spread them far and wide throughout the right-wing echo chamber. That's not to say there aren't left-wing conspiracy nuts too, but generally, they seem to be much less of a threat.
17
" At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?"
He's likely not insane - at least in this context - though I'm not remotely qualified to make any definitive comment on that.
But deluded? Almost certainly, and that likely started the instant he first tuned his TV to Faux News.
14
"At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?"
A very important and serious question for our time. It provides a credible defense for any current Republican politician who is charged with a crime.
10
lock him up and move on. whether or not he's certified insane can be determined by court appointed psychiatrist's.
3
Does this mean that all those Trump supporters who believe the same things are now not eligible to own guns? Seems fair.
30
Seems logical to me. Mental illness is the only rational explanation for persistent belief in far right wing conspiracy theories that have been objectively debunked (like Crowdstrike, deep state conspiracy, the birther movement etc). That seems to be the most rational defense in the impeachment trial as well.
11
" At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?"
Unfortunately whatever this point is it seems a large percentage of Trump supporters have already reached it
22
Nothing wrong with a straight-up trial on the facts, and then if found guilty, imprison him with other criminally insane individuals. And he lands where he should be.
4
One area of political psychology research has been the correlation between individual authoritarian personality and right-wing political leanings. Observations of many politicians tends to support this linkage. Similarly, proclivities toward conspiracy theories and eschatological prognostications among pseudo-religious cults might indeed be related to mental pathologies. There are interesting hypotheses that would be worthwhile to investigate.
9
I miss the old mob days .. Men were men- and they went down fighting or saying nothing.
6
He sounds like most Republican members of Congress. Wish that we could give them all competency assessments as a condition of their remaining in office.
29
As I understand it, the central point of the insanity plea is that the perpetrator's alleged insanity meant that he didn't know what he was doing was wrong. That is, the person is "not guilty by reason of insanity" because their insanity removed their ability to understand that their crime was wrong. So the question in this case, as well as any other, is, Did his belief in these conspiracy theories make him incapable of understanding that what he was doing was wrong/bad@Passion for Peaches As I always understood it, the issue with insanity is whether your mental state has made you incapable of understanding that what you've done is wrong. And, as I think you're observing, that isn't covered anywhere in this article -- but maybe it hasn't been covered in the courtroom yet, either. According to what I read in this article, this young man did wrong based on conspiracy theories he believes, but he knows what he did was wrong. So no insanity defence! (although, as others have pointed out, he sounds schizophrenic, so insane although not legally so.)
The interesting follow-on that this question of incapability of understanding raises, for me, is whether moral bankruptcy should therefore be seen as a kind of insanity. If you don't see wrong in the wrong thing you're doing, are you insane? And if so, is there a cure for that insanity?
4
a criminal trial can also be stayed by reason of the defendants insanity when he or she is incapable of understanding the proceedings
1
Not to take away from the discussion regarding conspiracy theories, but it's a shame that you don't explore the mental illness side here -- there are lots of signs of schizophrenia going on here.
8
This article tries to explore if conspiracy immersion can ever justify premeditated murder. Unless someone is under the imminent threat of life or limb, a lethal response is never justified. Paranoia (in the absence of a mental illness) is never a defense for murder.
It is also unclear if paranoia is the cause or the effect of conspiracy theories. From a psychological standpoint, conspiracy thinking is the result of social anxiety, caused by long-term chaos in one's life. Drugs like anabolic steroids and marijuana also induce paranoid thinking.
Organized crime often uses psychological pressure to manipulate an individual, such as the use of symbolic communication for (gang) stalking, bumper-locking. The most common method is to produce meaningful coincidences in the individual, for the purpose of inducing paranoia (religious cults call it 'planned spontaneity'). Perhaps it is no coincidence that Mr. Comello murdered a known organized crime figure.
According to Gartner (2009): "‘The earliest stages of delusion are characterized by an over-abundance of meaningful coincidences,’ explain Paul D. Morrison and R.M. Murray of the Institute of Psychiatry at King’s College London. ‘Jumping to conclusions’ is a common reasoning style among the paranoid, find Daniel Freeman and his colleagues, also at the Institute of Psychiatry.” (p. 38)
Cite:
Gartner, John. Dark Minds : When does Incredulity become Paranoia? Psychology Today. Vol. 42 No. 5 (Sep-Oct 2009), p. 37-38
4
he needn't worry - Trump will pardon him. after all, he's a "crime fighter," isn't he? and in Trump's name, at that. it's a "perfect" defense.
3
I don't see that Mr. Comello is any more or less delusional than Donald Trump or Devin Nunes, who, face it, don't live in the real world either.
Before the internet, these folks were more often than not just isolated nut jobs who on their own struggled to give shape and identity to the forces at work inside their heads. Now that they have a way to communicate and influence each other - and what's worse, to be manipulated (I'm looking at you, Sean Hannity and Alex Jones) - it seems they are more and more frequently emboldened to act on their confused ideations as a result of external suggestion and reinforcement.
There will always be those poor tortured souls searching for an answer that doesn't exist. The real evildoers are the hucksters and con artists who prey upon them.
23
If I go out and hire someone to kill a person, I have committed a crime.
Why are those who spew conspiracy theories or, more often, and including our illustrious President, hatred and discrimination that can only be realized or actualized through violence, why are they not held responsible?
The only difference is that one is direct - hiring - while the other is more psychological, for lack of a better word, and indirect. One suggests, one points, one spews out counterfactuals, along with a wealth of lies and deceptive propaganda.
But the goal is the very same: do violence to that person, those people.
As for insanity, well, we're witnessing it en mass here in the USA: a massive number of people who stand behind a child-president bully who has embarrassed the US on all levels of government and diplomacy and has set us back decades in respect to environmental (and thus climate) progress, and who is likely selling off parts of our nation in some sense as we speak....there is insanity.
12
This is one Trump hasn't tried yet - but keep watching.
3
Just an FYI; putting a phone in a copper bag to protect it from 'satellites' is nonsensical. Mu-metal is the way to go!
2
There is only one time insanity can be excused - when the person tries to kill only self. Anytime another life is threatened or taken out, it is pure evil and should be punished at the same level as a sane person.
5
This is so unfair yet so absolutely appropriate: The Trump Republican Party enlists the Outfit.
3
Whatever 'defense' his lawyers concoct, it won't make much difference as to his ultimate fate. He may sleep with the fishes, or worse. You don't get to kill a "made guy" and walk away.
4
@Dr. Vinny
That’s what movies tell me too.
1
Right? I can't believe he's still breathing air. I mean look how easy it was to get to Epstein?
4
In spite of the first amendment, it is illegal to yell “fire!” In a crowded theater when there is in fact no fire. Why?? Because the reaction that can cause amongst the theater audience could have grave safety consequences. At least that’s the constitution example given. So... how is promulgation of online conspiracy theories that have absolutely zero basis in fact not the equivalent of yelling “Fire!” In a crowded theater??? The difference is one of semantics at best. The end result is the same. These online conspiracy nuts need to be shut down not rewarded with credibility from both the White House and the republicans in Congress. What a horrid munch of morally vacuous individuals they are.
14
the difference is that when a person yells fire in a crowded theater it is foreseeable that someone will get hurt. Conspiracy theorists will argue that they are in it for money, entertainment, or belief. They don't intend anyone to act on those theories. The argument is that it was not reasonable to forsee the malfeasance
Tim—this notion is actually a fallacy. You should read this: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/
If anything proves the existence of an American Deep State, it's been the actions of the Deep State itself: the impeachment circus; call-logs (of journalists--the horror!); "Anonymous" writing a book; the ex-director of the CIA ranting on TV, with a henchman uttering "Thank God for the Deep State;" the secret Whistleblower (known to all, who dare not utter his name); the bow-tie brigade whining about having to follow presidential directives; the locked, windowless basement Star Chamber...Mr. Comello looks pretty sane!
This person’s delusion made him kill someone. Other people will vote for Trump in November because of the same delusion (Q anon, etc). One is a crime, the other is a moral failing, but let’s not forget that the source for both is the same delusion.
9
The "crazy" defense may keep him out of prison, but no matter what psychiatric facility he ends up in, his life will not be worth a plugged nickle. The mob doesn't allow for an "insanity defense."
3
If the judge rules that paranoid conspiracy theorists are insane, then should they be removed from the voting polls? Please?
5
Abolish the insanity defense. Preserving the violently insane does not benefit society.
4
The only evidence of a ‘Deep State’ I’m seeing is Giuliani, trump, Pence, Mulvaney, Pompeo, etc.
13
If Anthony Comello can be declared legally insane by virtue of his belief in conspiracy theories, including the notion of an imaginary “deep state,” then the same should apply to Trump, Devin Nunes, Howdy Rudy, Jim Jordan and the rest of 45’s lockstep QAnon hoaxsters. Sadly, while insanity may be enough to exonerate a mob hitman, it thus far doesn’t seem sufficient to preclude one from serving in the highest office in the land. Maybe if Trump is impeached, he can be acquitted for believing in a “deep state”. Now that would be crazy!
4
Perhaps insanity will be the only way America will be able to ever forgive the damage to democracy caused by Trump supporters.
6
Meh. Comello believed a conspiracy theory, plotted his role in it, acted on it, and now needs to pay the full consequences of his behaviors. We need to understand that by itself belief in a conspiracy is not a mental illness. It is a conscious choice to select certain statements as fact and to ignore verified facts that don't fit. That's just idiocy, not illness. Idiocy is a choice, and idiocy that drives murder is just murder. Choosing to murder needs to be punished. It's even more important in that it shows others the consequences of following through on any idiotic belief, and they'd be well advised to think about the reality of their beliefs.
4
Something of a Catch-22, don't you think?
Would a sane man waive his right to psychiatric evaluation?
Why would an insane man think he needed one?
You end up going in circles on this one. The entire Gambino crime family is saying, "You got to be kidding me."
Here's the thing though: If Comello is insane, that means insane people believe Trump is sane. Therefore, Trump is insane because he makes perfect sense to insane people. A position which makes perfect sense to sane people. Perhaps we should ask Trump whether he wants to undergo a psych evaluation.
Oh wait, we already know the answer to that question.
5
Two out of three of his first explanations to the cops involve the Gotti family -- might tell you something.
1
First of all, Q and Qanons never encourage or promote violence. The only encouragement is that people research for themselves if they want to find the truth about why our govt is so corrupt. Trump and the military are going to legally get justice, no action required by anons. Second, I dont believe Q ever even mentioned this mob boss or really much of anything mob related. If you don't consider that some conspiracy theories probably have some truth to them, then you are blindly accepting what the media and the government tell you as fact. "Conspiracy theory" has become a label with negative connotation that implies someone is crazy if they ask questions or dissent from the narrative told by the media. If Q is real and the media is part of the coverup, what kind of articles do you think the media would publish? Maybe something like this and hundreds more claiming Q is a "debunked conspiracy theory"? If it is so debunked, why hasn't Trump himself told us it is not real? Why isn't congress addressing it? As for this guy who killed the mob boss, not sure what the true story is... but it appears the media is blaming "Qanon" ...hmmm
Oh yeah, Q & QAnon are totally non-violent - except for all of the extra-judicial executions by hanging they incessantly call for, pray for, and dream of, against people whose only “crimes” are the feverish imaginings of so-called “Christian” Trump supporters ranting online.
1
There are incredibly serious implications wrapped up in this modern day Jimmy Breslin tale. If you can't shout fire in a theater, even in 99.99% of the patrons know there is no fire, you shouldn't be allowed to publish bizzaro conspiracy theories that 99.99% of the population would either mistake for an Onion headline or a joke on any late-night talk show, if they just did not dismiss it out of hand.
If Mr. Comello had made up this conspiracy theory, then yes, he would likely meet the definition of legally insane. He expresses no remorse and doesn't think what he did was wrong. But, instead, he simply bought into someone else's crack-pot theory. So he's probably not legally insane despite his lack of remorse. Deficient, for sure. A few screws loose? Yes. Not the brightest bulb in the box - no doubt. But not legally insane. Although, sending him to prison where he is going to find many kindred spirits when it comes to white supremacy and Manchurian Candidate-style government conspiracies is probably not the best outcome here either.
1
Paging Vinnie The Chin. Someone is using your defense strategy.
4
Does Trump know about this guy. He's perfect for a job in the White House.
6
Anyone consider the novel idea that this guy knew that he killed a mobster?
2
From what is mentioned in the article he sounds more like a schizophrenic than a conspiracy theorist.
1
Somewhere down below, Vinnie The Chin is laughing very, very hard
2
Not so different than the Unabomber almost used before deciding he did not want the world to think his ideas were crazy.
2
"At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?"
I know that was fun to write, but c'mon. This is the NYT. At least pretend that you want to be a reporter. Use twitter when you want everyone to see that you can be funny/clever.
2
I’m not indicting all white males, but, what is it about white males, first, creating these conspiracy theories and then white males being susceptible to these fantasies? In particular, it seems to be a world that many young (18-30 yo) white males are immersed In. I certainly don’t have answers, but what makes someone step over the line into being a true believer? How is this different from young Moslem males stepping over the line into becoming Islamic terrorists
3
Some irony given that Gambino family member Vincent Gigante spent years walking around the Village in a bathrobe muttering in order to avoid prosecution.
4
Ironically, former Gambino family boss, Vincent Gigante feigned insanity for decades while running the crime family. Could Comello be taking a page from Gigante's book?
3
I thought the original story in the press was that this kid shot his victim (who happened to be a crime family boss) over being stymied in pursuing a romantic interest. The family knew who he was, and the victim even went outside unarmed to talk to him. This Q-non conspiracy stuff just seems like a defense strategy with a lot of crazy details filled in after the fact, like the Gambino capo being part of the deep state. There is paranoid, and then there is just plain stupid.
1
“Anthony Comello sat down with New York Police Department detectives and told them that the C.I.A. had infiltrated the Mafia.”
......not so far fetched. Didn’t the C.I.A. Involve the mafia to assassinate Castro?
America would never let itself be controlled by a criminal! Thank God!
1
It seems to me that when assessing mental competency one has to separate categories of mental processes. I can believe that my neighbor is the spawn of the devil, is involved in an insidious religious cult, is conspiring against me to cause me harm, and that he is an ongoing threat to me and my family. (All of that is true, by the way.) I can even believe that he’s a CIA plant and is spying on me (not true, I know, because the CIA would want nothing to do with that micro brained toad). But at the same time I can be (painfully) aware that I will be arrested, put on trial and possibly put in prison for many years if I so much as raise a finger to harm him. Joking aside, those two modes of thought are not incompatible. You can believe that the flying monkeys are coming to get you, but at the same time know (somewhere in your febrile brain) that you may (depending on where you live) be in trouble with the law if you pick up your shotgun and shoot down the monkeys (a flock of crows) that are freaking you out.
I’d say Comello is no more of a nutter than many of the folks I encounter every day. Some months ago, a seemingly rational woman told me that “they” were poisoning us with whatever is supposed to be in contrails. And then, having crossed that line, she went off about immigrants storming the border.
If drinking the conspiracy Koolaid is proof of mental incompetency, vast swathes of the US population should be deemed certifiable. Trump voters all, I am sure.
4
Ah conspiracy theories: when you are just dumb enough to think you are just smart enough to know how the world works. When I’m fact it is far more complex than you are able to fathom.
Perhaps he should change his plea to “stupidity.”
3
This is besides the point but there really shouldn’t be any use of the phrase “child prostitution” on a legitimate news website such as the NYT. It’s child trafficking.
The question onna table is: how responsible are incredibly stupid people for their crimes? Bada bing bada dumb.
1
First off there is a difference between Competency to stand trial and insanity.
Insanity is a legal term, defense used. Claims that the defendant was insane during the time the crime was committed.
Competency is about the defendant understanding the proceedings against him.
A person who harms or kills during a “break” is no more responsible than the victim. They don’t know what they are doing. In most cases if they are found insane treatment is provided but most importantly they are assessed and a long term plan created for safety of the community.
If he is found incompetent they will delay the case till he is capable of standing trial , ie. understand the proceedings.
The chances of both happening are possible but least likely.
1
There seems to be an underlying assumption in these comments that insanity and delusional thoughts and behaviors are rare, so that if there’s a bid for an insanity defense in a criminal case, it’s probably a ruse. I disagree: insanity and delusions are very common; it is mental health that’s on the endangered list these days.
6
People must be held responsible for their actions if those actions harm others. "Insanity" shouldn't be a grounds for innocence. It should be a grounds for long-term treatment rather than incarceration.
In a society where we no longer fund mental health care for most people, the next best option is prison, because that at least has the virtue of protecting others from someone whose illness makes them capable of violence. That's awful and inhumane. But it's the choice a society in which people can be denied access to healthcare they need because they can't pay for it (and make no mistake about it, mental health treatment, especially inpatient treatment, is expensive), it's the choice we've made.
2
This is somewhat clever agitoprop but it has nothing to do with a "deep state" which merely means an entrenched, ideologically aligned civil service, media and donor class; nor does it have anything to do with Trump. Discrediting political foes by narrative association is a very old method.
1
Also, the article paints the problem as solely on the Right, when in fact many shootings, such as those of Rep Scalise, where done by equally unhinged Leftists.
Our 45th president, Donald Trump, has hosted a so-called expert on "QAnon" in the Oval Office, for a personal one-on-one visit and private photo op with one of the leading "QAnon" conspiracy theorists.
Another one of the early pre-eminent supporters and proponents of "QAnon" conspiracy theories was Jerome Corsi, who worked closely with Roger Stone to coordinate with Assange and Wikileaks and the Trump campaign, about the release timing of the DNC emails in 2016.
There are special sections at Trump rallies where the "QAnon" followers congregate and sit together, wearing T-shirts and signs; and there have been "QAnon" themed signs waved behind the president on camera at his rallies (meaning the people were placed there by Trump's own campaign staff), and his own campaign has even gone so far as to print their own signs with slogans and catch phrases that also appear frequently in "QAnon" writings.
Make of THAT, whatever you will.
14
That sometimes members of Qanon are also voters and Americans do not lose their right to vote just because they’re crazy the way they might if they were, for example, black?
One thing I learned from my brief career as a psychologist at a community mental health center is that more mentally ill people should be held responsible for their crimes.
A chronic paranoid schizophrenic who threatens to kill or actually kills should be tried and convicted with imprisonment as a punishment.
To not hold the mentally ill responsible is often a gross manipulation of justice.
99
@Michael Kittle
Apparently you don't know much about the insanity defense. It is exceedingly rarely successful.
Also, our prisons have begun de facto mental hospitals disproving what you say.
25
@Michael Kittle
The mentally ill are, indeed, held responsible for their behavior. The single biggest consumers of mental health services are found in prisons and jails throughout the country.
29
@Steve .......the state mental hospitals have been shut down along with little funding for mental health centers resulting in many dual diagnosed homeless people ending up in jail, usually for minor infractions. The jails have become the de facto mental hospitals.
My comment is more for the significant mentally ill with more serious crimes who often are still successful with an insanity defense instead of long term incarceration. Their lawyers are still able to scam an insanity defense.
Occasionally, a mass murder occurs by a mentally ill person who was known to the police but not watched or jailed for previous crimes. Their final act of violence if they had been in custody.
9
What's truly insane is how this guy is still alive. His neck must be really sore from looking over his shoulder.
89
Once in prison, it won’t be long.
6
Yeah, there's a long history of insanity defenses for high-profile crimes.
There's also a long history of criminals FAKING insanity -- particularly among mob criminals -- to obtain a lesser sentence. See Vincent "The Chin" Gigante and his bathrobe.
Prosecutors should proceed here with deep skepticism of this dude's "insanity".
63
What this young man says and believes are pretty normal over on Breitbart.
243
True, and that indicates that most of Breitbart's readership is also insane.
65
@Brian Pottorff That's scary.
7
Conspiracy theories, like watching television, robs one of intelligence, critical thinking, and a life of shared existence with fellow citizens.
From Devin Nunes to Rosanne Barr, it's hard for the uninitiated to even understand their utterances because they are so often framed by references to alternative facts.
I believe that US public schools have always under-emphasized critical thinking, which has left large parts of the public vulnerable to filter bubbles, conspiracy theories, propaganda.
To some extent fact-based media (like reality itself) can hardly compete with the emotional thrill and fun of pursuing the forbidden fruit of alternative facts, and Trump understands and exploits that masterfully.
183
@Scott Newton
You are absolutely correct in stating that the US Public Schools do not encourage critical thinking. At least not the schools I attended in Wi. It was my French teacher in college, Mme. de Barcza (she was actually Polish), who exposed me to critical comments/thinking. She had an opinion about many things, even Americans. (I had never heard one anti American comment, up until this point, and I was hooked. i.e. question, don't assume, etc. etc.
24
@Scott Newton I am utterly surrounded by people who embrace conspiracy theories, I can think of eight or ten I know personally, and in every one of those, formal education stopped between 12 and 18 years. in no case was there any secondary schooling.
Principles of physics and chemistry are reduced to "opinions"...and result in Flat Earth, chem-trails, and climate change denial.
History and current events studies are reduced to a "Deep State propaganda machine", (the Obama Birther conspiracy, Uranium One).
In almost all cases, belief in the impossible is driven by a thought process poisoned by religious fanaticism, which requires exactly zero rational thought.
82
@Scott Newton … but they provided an very nice living for Alex Jones. Isn't that what really matters? /s
15
once again a white man tries to use the "mental illness" defense.
7
@xyz Thank you Ivan.
1
Just another Trump supporter taking matters into his own hands because he knows the Deep State is out to get him and all the other Trump supporters.
24
If an unfit for office conspiracy theorists stays in office it's hard to understand why this conspiracy theorist should be unfit for trial. He's the walking dead anyway, so it's all moot.
11
All good points.
“Conspiracy theories and disinformation campaigns have seen something of a renaissance with the rise of social media.”
In other news, the ocean is somewhat damp.
14
It’s tougher for educated people to fall for these theories though.
1
Like Gary Webb said, 'I don't believe in conspiracy theories. If I believe in a conspiracy, it's not a theory.' And the fact is conspiracies abound. That's what the MO of intelligence agencies are by definition. They're constantly conspiring to find new ways to acquire data and change things according to their current political mandate. Never forget, the CIA has assassinated lots of people, fomented revolutions, wars, etc. They've experimented on American citizens, foreign citizens - MKUltra, LSD, Tuskagee Airmen, et al. All of which - until it became public knowledge was touted as conspiracies that only the tinfoil hat brigades believed.
2
@Coots thanks for visiting.
So if Mr. Comello is successful, can we expect another Don, the head of a notorious crime family, to use the defense after he exhausts his legal protection in January 2021?
13
So, this person, Q, apparently convinced Mr. Comello that a Gambino Family underboss, Fancesco Cali, was central to a "DeepState" conspiracy and should be arrested. In effect, one could conclude that this was a hit contracted by Mr. Q.
I wonder what effect the closing of the Q-Anon website due to the host's absence will have on the Republican Party?
9
...but does he wear a bathrobe in the street?
8
Brainwashed? Sure!
Legally insane? Don't think so!
People who create and spread hateful conspiracy theories should be hold accountable and share the blame along with the responsibility when someone believes them and decides to acts on it.
10
"His lawyer has taken the first steps in a legal battle that hinges on a question made for the internet age: At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?"
LOL, Trump and his cultists - that's a boatload of lawmakers and a big chunk of the country - have much in common with Mr. Comello.
10
An Arizona court did not believe that a defendant's delusions that vampires were after him rendered the defendant incompetent in Stat v. Ward, a 2015 unpublished case. Link is below.
https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/2791035/state-v-ward/
1
I submit that anyone who lives within the bizarre world of organized crime, who finds value and self-esteem in violence, mayhem and murder, is arguably insane.
5
What about the military, say, Gallagher? At least if you’re good at it in the mob you can make real money.
Vincent ' The Chin' Gigante played ' crazy' while heading up his NYC crime family.
And the Chin's botched sanctioned hit on a NYC crime family boss went unpunished when his target conveniently couldn't identify who tried to kill him.
In ' The Sopranos' Tony was seeing a psychiatrist.
And we haven't seen Donald Trump's health medical care mental and physical diagnoses nor treatments.
7
I see a cautionary tale here for Rudy Giuliani to ponder.
14
Paragraph 5: "At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?"
A question that would make Orwell proud.
Yes, the Thought Police are coming for you.
It's not about your actions. It is about what you think and believe.
1
@John That is the nature of mental illness/insanity. It is about what you think and believe. And the relation of those thoughts and beliefs to objective reality. No thought police here, just legal insanity.
13
@John
Right track, John. Wrong direction.
It's the crooks and creeps who are trying to show off their state of mind. Nobody is hiding what they "think and believe," Nor is anybody trying to pry into it.
Finally, whew, you've got so many things wrong, the government is trying to keep thoughts and beliefs out of the discussion so the only issue can be acts.
Not bad. Ted Williams only had two zeros when he batted four hundred. You've got three. .000.
5
@liddy
"And the relation of those thoughts and beliefs to objective reality."
And who determines "objective reality"?
You?
The government?
The media?
And if you believe different...you are now deemed "legally insane".
Sound exactly like the Thought Police to me.
My guess is this guy becomes legally insane the moment we The People are able to put folks like Alex Jones in the loony bin.
Until then, this guy is but the spice of American life.
6
perhaps he watched “The Irishman”...which depicts the Bay of Pigs invasion as payback to the mob by Joe Kennedy, in exchange for getting his son elected.
2
Well at least he didn't kill an innocent man. Good riddance to both of them.
3
We must hope the hate of QAnon believers and deceivers does not metastasize into violence and spread beyond nutters like Comello and Sayoc. Hope, and for believers in the possibility of divine intervention, prayer, are likely the only we means we have for quieting the sickness in the minds of those given to conspiracy nonsense such as the QAnon's. For we cannot expect our president to weigh in with his bully-pulpit against the absurdities of QAnon and the like. Instead our president chooses to use his office and the newly established, but shameful, power of the presidential tweet to bully those who disagree with or criticize him. That power and his use of it will likely be his "greatest" legacy.
Imagine if you can a President Trump who tweeted against wild conspiracy theories of the Left and Right; a president who condemned QAnon proponents for believing such "crap", a term Trump seems fond of and that applies perfectly. Of course you can't imagine these things because our president doesn't possess genuinely ethical values or care about exercising what used to be known as moral leadership. Moreover, Donald Trump is hardly a connoisseur of conspiracy theories. The more unfounded or wackier a theory is, the more he embraces and hangs onto it.That's one reason he is so beloved by his base.
3
How many people buy into conspiracy theories and *don't* kill?
I've maintained since Jan 2017 that the GOP of today is one of the world's organized crime families, this just plays directly into that mindset, per se ....
13
Can I make an observation? It sounds to me like this guy is trying to play the insanity defense in the hopes he'll be placed in an institution for the mentally deranged rather than in a correction institute where his chances of being "whacked" are MUCH higher than in a mental hospital. Did this guy ever show any signs of being a right wing kook before he mistakingly offed a wise guy? Is this guy's computer/tablets/phones filled with visits to 4chan or 8chan or other similarly crazy right wing conspiracy web sites? Let a psychiatric professional determine this guy's state of mind or mental illness (if he has any) at the time of the act. That's how this is supposed to work.
4
Why is this guy on trial? He would be a perfect fit in the Trump administration!
7
Mentally weak is different from mentally insane. The defendant falls into the first category.
6
“At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?”
At the same point that belief in god makes you legally insane. In other words never. There is a different word for those who believe in conspiracy theories: stupid. And the deeper in you get, the more stupid you are. Of course, If you are already insane, you can subscribe to a greater or lesser degree to one or more conspiracy theories.
3
Polls indicate around Half of Republican voters believe the same conspiracy theories as Comello but most have not committed murder. Yet.
11
Apparently you haven’t noticed the shallow grave where they buried reason and integrity.
I'm not sure how to resolve the conflict between freedom of speech and the consequences of incitement to violence, but I'm inclined to hold social media outlets peddling conspiracy theories and hatred responsible for their spawn. The dim-witted and disaffected in our society are easy prey for these baleful manipulators, and the outcome of their efforts is entirely intentional. If you can't shout "fire" in a crowded theater, why can you inflame people with impunity? There has to be a way to rein in these operators on the lunatic fringe.
11
The common recourse of organized crime, the mobs, the gangs, to violence and murder is a sign of sociopathic maladjustment. Aren’t they all to some extent dangerously mentally and emotionally unbalanced?
But you have to admire creativity when it comes to spinning original defence theories that can work as cover for subversion of prosecutions through those pedestrian old methods of jury tampering, witness purchase or intimidation, or heaven forbid, bought judges. Say it ain’t so, Joe DiMaggio.
Plus, if he really was crazy he would have a nickname like bananas or nuts. Case closed.
2
Trump may pardon him and offer him a cabinet position.
6
This was big news on our little Island.
I even had to take a detour to get to work because of “ police activity “.
He’s a sick man who needs help.
The lawyer should make THAT his mission.
2
Mr Comello has a bright future ahead of him.
3
@Plennie Wingo Or, at least: His future is ahead of him.
@Bob R
“Forget posterity. What have they ever done for me?”
Believing in bizarre conspiracy theories does not mean one is insane. It means one is stupid. Stupid is not a defense. Case closed.
66
Give him a Twinkie and send him to jail.
5
And Vincent "The Chin" Gigante used to wander the streets in a bathrobe while running his crime family. Still found guilty.
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Don't worry, Mr. Comello, with your mindset you are a prime candidate for a Trump pardon.
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@Pete Or a cabinet post.
3
I can almost understand how someone like the guy who went to the pizza place to stop the crimes against children did what he did. He believed what he read. But who are these people who absolutely know that these fantasies are false but spread them anyway? In the pizza shop case, they absolutely knew the fantasy was false because, if they thought it had any truth to it, I'm sure they would agree that, being the sort of moral person they know themselves to be, they would have at least picked up the phone and called the DC police. But they didn't make the call. Instead they helped spread the fantasy and then a gullible or, in the NY case, a mentally unstable person responded with violence. There's blood on the hands that click the "share" button.
25
Staten Island. Always keeping it classy. :eyeroll:
(I say this as a lifelong resident, FYI. We have a lot of right-wing crazies here.)
45
I'd think believing in any of these bizarre conspiracy theories makes people technically insane. For example, those that believe the world is flat, against all the evidence, are not people who believe in the same reality all of us experience. That's a definition of insane, inhabiting a different reality than the consensus. Similarly, anyone who believes Trump always tells the truth, is technically insane. Since Trump goes back and forth on things, at least one of his conflicting statements has to be false, and if people don't recognize that then they are incapable of accepting reality and therefore insane.
So yes, this guy is psychotic, inhabiting a reality all his own. I don't think he should ever walk free again, but he should be given treatment for his obvious mental illness.
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@Dan Stackhouse I think we have to separate 'mental illness' and plain old stupidity. There is no 'idiocy' defense in US law.
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@Dan Stackhouse
That makes the religious people crazy too.
3
You believe, on hearsay alone, a dead guy got up and walked around after rotting for four days in a cave. But millions who share that conviction would not think you’re crazy. So, in a couple of thousand years, Q-Anon will be a major world religion eligible to take in money and own real estate tax free.
1
Give Mr Comello a note of thanks with his electricity.
3
This guy doesn't sound all that different than any GOP Congress member.
95
The last statement here is a great one"... when you’re on one of these conspiracy benders, everything makes sense.”
But it should also be noted that just because such thinking may be seriously misguided and wrong for psychological reasons, it does not mean that this thinking is ENTIRELY wrong. Even the most wacky conspiracy theories often have an iota of truth underlying them - especially, in my opinion, if they are widely popular.
Many people believe that through the internet and social media, normalizing forces of public opinion give way to runaway processes that favor irrationality and untruth. I'm not there yet. Actually, I'm more concerned by all the people who seem to reflexively support the position of an article (or some other position of authority) and jump on a bandwagon that castigates other people who they know little about. There should be a way to rationally and empirically evaluate widespread conspiracy theories that may have BOTH illegitimate and legitimate bases... without everyone turning into stone.
3
Sorry but I'm pretty sure people that believe the earth is flat, or that vaccines are supposed to sterilize us, or that Trump always tells the truth, are just completely delusional. None of those things, or dozens of other conspiracy theories, have the slightest shred of truth to them, they are nonsense and lies throughout. There is no reason to grant any of these ridiculous fictions any legitimacy at all.
5
@carl bumba: I think you're saying that there is a kernel of truth in a lot of what we call conspiracy theories... corporations and government agencies really are gigantic bureaucracies that keep too many secrets just in their day to day operations, let alone when they are covering up some nefarious scheme. They have different departments that keep secrets from each other!
So we can't realistically pretend that we live in a "normal" world where everything is just as it seems. So, how do we distinguish the kooky conspiracy theories, from a healthy recognition of corporate and government schemes and cover-ups?
No easy answer here. Pragmatically: read a lot of the mainstream media, pay a little attention to the others, and read lots of history. And enjoy John LeCarre and Lee Child and so on, to practice distinguishing fact from fiction. That seems to work for me. I hope.
1
The Times' earlier reporting described Cali as the head of the family. In this article he is described as underboss. I see no corrections on the earlier articles. Which is it?
6
I wish the CIA would stop treating mobsters as tools.
1
No evidence of that in this case at all. I think what may have confused you is that was the psychotic delusion of the killer. Or in one of his explanations, anyway.
1
Just another bigoted, hate-filled white supremacist. Lock him up.
15
America's President was the country's premier Birther Liar.
He and his party are serial climate science deniers; he and his ilk have repeatedly referred to manmade fossil-fuel-based climate change as a 'hoax'.
They actively support 'abstinence' birth control programs.
Poor Republicans, wealthy Republicans and Republican farmers alike are all world-class welfare queens who think they support 'small government'.
They think 400 million guns have made America safe despite clear evidence that owning a gun decreases your longevity.
They pretend to love the Constitution, but proudly abandon it to maintain corrupt, criminal power.
At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make an entire political party legally insane ?
Decent Americans don't vote for a party that has slipped the surly bonds of reason, evidence and sanity.
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@Socrates
Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder.
1
@Socrates Don’t get reasonable!
4
The killer here seems like Travis Bickle of Taxi Driver; earlier reports had also said he had a romantic interest in one of Mr. Comello's relatives. Life imitates art.
5
This was almost predictable. Two things came together: Trump pardons Navy criminal, puts out hate tweets about Navy for resisting his absurd decision. Meanwhile, the Senate won't pass the House bill that would take assault weapons out of the hands of crazy people who are likely to go forth and murder after the president tweets.
6
It is just a matter of time when this becomes normalized, especially when these beliefs come from the top.
21
"At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?"
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@Why Austerity The answer should be, as soon as you start believing it.
10
@Why Austerity FOX NEWS is making the country insane
9
Apparently, far right conspiracy believers can make it right to the White House
5
Continuation of prior comment: Belief in conspiracy theories is not a defense. If a person is psychotic then they should be spared the death penalty - not a guilty verdict.
13
Actually it kind of is a defense, in that an insanity plea hinges on the defendeant being shown to be unable to tell right from wrong - that's what you have to show. If your worldview is such that certain people have to be killed, or should be, you think that's right. Then you are unable to tell right from wrong.
2
Based on the story, this kid is living on borrowed time. His novel defense won't matter.
19
The "Mafia"/"Cosa Nostra" -- "mob," generically -- may not be what once it was … but I'll take all bets from those who would believe that, whether given his 'freedom,' imprisoned in 'gen pop' or solitary confinement, or in a 'securitized place' for the criminally insane, Mr. Comello is not a "Dead Man Walking" (just yet).
6
A murder on Todt Hill? Ironic, since Todt is German for dead.
16
@KxS
Not Todt but “tot” in German. Todt is probably from Old Dutch or for Fritz Todt, a Nazi military engineer.
4
@Belle Poitrine: "Tod", but you're right, Todt was the engineer.
1
Actually Todt Hill is the original Dutch name, and it does mean 'death' in Dutch because the top was treeless and rocky.
4
I was also thinking that he’s faking insanity like Gigante, from the first time I saw those marks on his palm. If he were really Quanon he wouldn’t show off those marks to everyone. And what happened to his original defense that Mr. Cali forbade him to date his daughter (or niece)?
17
@Belle Poitrine Yeah this is the next generation of that but Vinnie was much more creatve. The feds would come looking for him and find him in the shower holding an umbrella.
5
@Belle Poitrine I'm a little dubious about the category "really" Qanon. Remember, that's all "really" totally bogus. It's not like being a Mason or something.
1
At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?
Now that's the $64 question! But in the case of far-right conspiracy subscribers, before you become eligible for legal insanity, you must first pass through stages of sheer jaw-dropping inanity, near-moronic gullibility, display an astonishing stamina for deflecting all fact and reason while oblivious to the injury you cause others and, of course, possess an undying belief that you are a martyr for a great cause, typically nothing less than the preservation of humanity itself.
18
@Chris Ipso facto, our "stable genius" "Chosen One" leader of "Great and unmatched Wisdom" is insane. Along with the rest of the Q-anon sub-reddit and much of the GOP.
7
So then, Trump is insane.
4
@Chris
Perfect post!
4
So if you believe in QAnon, you are legally insane? Does that mean, QAnon believers should not be able to vote? Keep jobs especially those in LOE?
5
As stated in the article, it will be very difficult for an insanity defense, as it is in most cases. While Mr. Comello appears to believe that he is sane, his lawyer, Mr. Gottlieb maintains that his client is not, as he was greatly influenced by these erroneous conspiracy theories. There is a disconnect between Mr. Comello's alleged reasoning for the murder (influence from conspiracy theories) and what happened (the murder of a member of the mob, who was, as far as I know, not politically connected to the targets of QAnon) It does not make sense. Since Mr. Comello refused psychiatric treatment, the issues brought up in the 2003 Supreme Court case Sell v. United States, which allowed the forced medication of inmates charged with serious crimes, if the government had a major interest in obtaining testimony or other court related actions from the inmate. Another important issue is how to deal with the rising flood of these instigating conspiracy. This trial will likely set the stage for future trials of people who take it upon themselves to be influenced so much so by conspiracy theories, that they act violently, causing harm to society. We shall see.
2
@MysteryTopHat
I believe the article stated that Mr. Comello suggested that the CIA had infiltrated the mob. Deep state and all. That would be the connection between the murder of an underboss and QAnon targets.
1
Another Trump supporter.
56
A very interesting story from the political point of view.
It illustrates the complete irresponsibility of an entire political party that refuses to step in and correct the idiocy on its fringe because it wants to keep power through any means necessary.
However, it also hopelessly confuses two distinct and important legal issues.
1. Is the defendant competent to stand trial?
2. If so, is he legally insane?
Some editing and a rewrite is in order.
26
And Hillary calling just about every8a Russian agent is not a conspiracy theory?
2
@John And her political party disavowed it. Does that kind of responsible action sound familiar to you? Of course not.
6
@John
Hillary is not the one meeting with russian agents. That was many of trump's people who were meeting with russian agents and lying about it. Which is what got them indicted and thrown in jail.
17
This says a lot about people who frequent Qanon.
18
@David
My son informs me that Qanon is thought to be a individual schizo-poster on the upper Chan boards, like 4 and 8. From what I can tell, he/she may be prone toward embellishment....
3
Justice would be served if this defense worked and the Gambino family sued the purveyors of the conspiracy theories for their negligence and contribution to the murderer's state of mind. I can't think of a more fascinating case to watch.
24
The hilarious thing about this, and what has been underlying American politics for at least a generation, is that these beliefs, as insane as they are, are routinely described as "very conservative" or the like, thereby normalizing them as part of a normal spectrum of beliefs, when in fact they are simply insane.
Maybe life would be easier if we described them as insane and cast them out of polite life.
182
It would be nice if it were that easy. However, ignoring problems or deplatforming virulent ideologies rarely makes them actually go away. For instance, law enforcement and the public in general in this country have long ignored the problem of white nationalism (and other hate groups) and that problem certainly hasn't gone away just because it wasn't in our everyday political discourse.
4
@George Peng Yes, but in order to do that, conservative politicians and news sites would have to stop promoting these conspiracy theories, which they won't, because they gain power by doing so...
5
Good luck with an insanity defense.
Even people with a diagnosable serious mental illness such as schizophrenia rarely successfully present it.
There are very few things in legal cases that are slam dunks but the failure of an insanity defense in this case is probably as close to one as you'll likely to find.
7
A sane person who grew up in NYC would not murder a suspected member of organized crime without the murder being sanctioned.
37
O great, another republican nominee for president!
31
Only a couple of sentences in and I can tell this guy really isn't into conspiracy theories. Everyone knows that you carry your phone around in a Faraday cage, not a copper bag.
14
@thomas Yeah, truly. Everyone know you have to carry around a microwave to really be shielded.
3
@thomas A copper bag IS a Faraday cage!
4
The courts should save the taxpayer expense and free Anthony Comello. Then the court should make public all addresses that Mr. Comello resides at our frequents. Let the Gambino family take care of these loss ends. Their solution will be far more efficient and tax effective.
3
Not to start a serious controversy, but reading that subscribing to far right conspiracy theories could constitute an insanity defense is, to me, a no go. Taken to it's logical extreme, terrorism becomes a mental illness problem, not an unacceptable act. By that standard, Timothy Mc Veigh could skate, as could Ben Laden. Meanwhile, in the real world, we put mad dogs down for the very good reason of safety.
39
Fox "news", Alex Jones, the President of the United States; all knowingly promote falsehoods to weak-minded, easily-influenced people, for money, fame, popularity etc., and as further evidenced by this article, it's an unquestionably dangerous practice. Isn't it against the law to falsely yell "Fire" in a packed movie theater? Same thing.
127
These conspiracy theorists are going to send us back to the dark ages. Personally I think it’s terrifying how many people believe this crazy stuff. And, I don’t think people realize how mainstream it is. We need to figure out how to combat it, like yesterday.
40
It's a challenge to determine exactly what insanity is, but to me it's no defense. It's just a matter of where you end up if you are found guilty. If you are not insane, you go to prison or in some states you are executed. If the preponderance of professional opinion is that you are insane, you serve your time in a mental institution receiving treatment. Insane people should not be executed and if "cured", should spend the remainder of their sentence in prison. The only merit of an insanity defense is that you are not exposed to potential execution. Prison serves a dual role. One is to rehabilitate but the other is to keep dangerous individuals segregated from the rest of society..
4
@Mike F.
It's worth noting that insanity is a legal concept, not a medical one. Thus it's whatever the law defines it as and this varies from state to state. No medical professional can say whether or not someone is insane.
1
@Mike F. The theory is that a criminal act has two elements: the physical action and the mental intention. Insanity for criminal prosecutions means a lack of capacity at the time to form or hold the intention to commit or comprehend the crime. Protective custody for the dangerously mentally ill is a different inquiry - is this individual a probable danger to themselves or others? At the end of the day the public wants cold blooded killers and delusional violent psychopaths off our streets. But incarcerating the truly mentally ill who cannot understand they have done anything wrong and present no danger to anybody (if that can be proven) is surely morally wrong and unconstitutional.
Mitch McConnell has been working against America for years and is currently sitting on dozens of pieces of important legislation that would enhance our safety (such as gun control legislation). He’s arguably a threat to America, but no one is arresting him. Can a citizen arrest someone like Mitch McConnell?
107
@Craig - McConnell is not arguably a threat to freedom and democracy; he is definitely a clear and present danger to both, and an insult to the Constitution he swore to uphold and protect. Unfortunately, citizen's arrest is enabled by (some) state laws and only pertains to criminal offenses. What might be interesting would be: (i) a suit for mandamus to force him to act to protect endangered innocents, like school children whose lives would have been saved by passage of the legislation he's sitting on; (ii) a civil suit for reckless endangerment on behalf of any children shot and who plausibly would have been protected by such legislation; and (iii)...?
35
@Craig
Are you attempting to initiate a Deep State conspiracy theory?
2
@Craig
Yes, but only if they are insane.
1
Clearly we are in a post truth world. Television, radio and the internet are filled with people who are trading in absurdity for their own personal gain. The courts would do well to default to the position that insanity defenses are an exceedingly high bar to clear assuming one believes that such a plea should exist. I am very skeptical.
8
The best thing the courts and public can do for people who commit atrocities (they deliberately seek fame and notoriety) is to not speak of them or give them any platform to garner and promote exposure/celebrity. Jacinda Arden’s response to the terrorist attack in NZ and the intentional non-mention of his name is without reproach. I genuinely do not know his name and I think that is a great triumph and something for which I am grateful.
101