WHAT IT MEANS TO BE JEWISH-AWAY FROM FANATICISM
Jewish may mean strict Torah observance, but Jewish means a lot more. It may be a system of values that actually underplays the Torah while stressing a universalist thirst for culture and understanding among people. What Jewish means can be gathered by citing several names of great Jews who enriched culture: Spinoza, Chagall, Horovitz, Heine, Rubinstein, Cantor, Soutine, Arendt... It is being at the forefront of philosophy, esthetics, math, physics, literature... It is terrible to notice how Judaism is being forced into narow-minded religious fanaticism, when the richness of Judaimsm can be observed so much further afield. Judaism is also described by an ideal of equity and justice, by a form of idealism in human realtions. Israel and Judaism should not be defined by politicians who want to abolish universities, such as the Shas leadership. It is a pity Netanyahu allows such fanatics to have a strong hand, just to serve his own narrow ends.
32
All this issue takes is a short look at history to EVERY example of a theocracy for anyone with any sense of intellect to realize that it ALWAYS turns out bad. In many cases it is already on its way. We almost never see any stories in Western media that cast any aspect of Israeli behaviour in a bad light. If you look at what is happening in the areas where the Fundamentalist have slowly become the majority you will see them spitting on little girls going to school because they do not meet either the standards of their orthodoxy, the attire is unacceptable and even in some cases the fact that they are going to school... now where do we regularly view media reports about these types of behaviour?
19
What if the ultra-orthodox are just a cult and not the “pure” Judaism they claim to be? Can you imagine the farce in America if the Amish had the same power and influence over U.S. cultural and governmental affairs as the ultra-orthodox do in Israel?
26
Boycott. Divest. Sanction.
22
There are 20 million Jews, at most, throughout the world. Most of those Jews don't even live in Israel. There are over 7 billion people in the world. Maybe religious Jews need to realize how lucky they are to even have a homeland to call their own...
9
Extreme orthodox Jews would trade the country to the Arabs in a NY minute in exchange for being given total control over all aspects of Jewish life and society. The fact that there would be no one left to defend their lives would not register until it was too late.
14
Wow, socialism for the 10% religious elite ultra-orthodox. Much like our socialism for the 1% wealthy elite getting all the wealth, tax exemptions, benefits and breaks from govt, getting others to risk their lives to defend their idle lifestyles; then have the arrogance to tell the 99% how we need to live with less - less healthcare, less education, less pay, less ... while the rich demand to hoard MORE. The orthodox 10% must make the other 90%,who work hard, pay taxes and risk their lives in the military, want to bang their head against a holy wall. Religious-nationalists are religious-supremacists too. Just as the orthodox want to TAKE the West Bank, America's elite want to TAKE Greenland
Similarities to Right-wing Republicans making religious concessions to evangelicals and other Christian sects is astonishing. Both impose their religious edicts on others - the Ten Commandments and crucifixes in public places like courts and schools that Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Sikh, etc and secular citizens do business in - getting married, educated, judged. Like the orthodox monopolizing marriage, evangelicals want to do so too - no same sex marriage, gay conversion, bible study in public schools, etc. Evangelicals give trump immunity on all his sins from birth
“Torah justice system”? As primitive as Shariah law! Both interpreted by flawed spiteful humans. Israel is becoming the Jewish likeness of Iran, or Saudi if Bibi becomes king
Weird! Soon secular Jews may not be welcome to Israel
14
If the Haredi-Israeli conflict is the biggest one in Israel (not white-black, Ashkenazi-Mizrahi, Jew-Palestian), then the state of Israel has been a tremendous success.
3
Ultra-Orthodox Jews are entitled to their views, however medieval and misogynist they may be, but they are not entitled to a "free lunch" at the expense of the rest of Israel. Nor are they entitled to exercise control over civil matters, such as marriage. Those Jews, secular and religious, who long ago embraced Enlightenment values, not only were the founders of Israel but are the "engine" of Israel's remarkable economic and technological progress. They also bear the burden of military service. Does Netanyahu wish to see the stream of their out-migration turn into a flood? Just one proud, but secular Jew's opinion.
25
How is Israel any different from another theocracy, their arch rival Iran?
8
@Joseph B Please visit both and write an Op Ed on your experiences.
22
It’s a theocracy, and a theocracy by definition cannot be a democracy. Hard to see how United States supports such a state, but given that our best Muslim friend is a Monarchy that beheads witches and executes it’s citizens at the will of the Crown Prince, why not? You are who your friends are-I see much horrendous violence in the next decade given the worldwide move toward intolerance and closed minds.
12
Someone noticed in the photo of students at Maale Adumim that they are all male. Another thing American viewers are less likely to notice is the green grass! The settlement is in the middle of the Judean desert. The water comes from the aquifers under the West Bank. That's why Netanyahu wants to annex the West Bank areas along the Jordan river. They want the water for themselves. Go to Palestinian areas and see if you can find any green grass!
18
Have ultra religious groups of any stripe, in any country, ever achieved anything positive after gaining political power?
20
Israel is neither theocracy or controlled by the ultra-orthordox. Nor do the people studying Torah take other people's money more than college or university study receive subsidies to study.
Although the article may look like a majority of Israelis oppose the Ultra-orthodox i believe its not so. Israelis respect & honor these Jews who give their lives to study and get closer to God and yet have quite a number if kids, and are glad that in return
they dont do army service. The financial subsidies are very small.
Consider the amount of Ultra-orthodox visitors and tourists to Israel. The value of rich Orthodox Jews that donate to all spheres of Israeli institutions including the Arts etc, and in also to help Torah Students stay at their studies.
Consider how many Orthordox Israelis are big businessmen and the businesses run by American & Europeans in Israel ?
The Torah students are not the great burden that you portray them as. And are not hated by the rest of their brethen that you wish for !
8
What this demonstrates is that fundamentalism in religion is toxic - regardless of who is practicing it. Fundamentalists seek to impose their values and views on everyone else. It seems ludicrous to me as an outsider that secular Israeli citizens are expected to support Ultra-Orthodox who do not work, and in fact receive an income so they can sit around and study the Torah all day. Plenty of people here are religious and engage in the study of their religion without expecting a free ride.
10
@dairyfarmersdaughter The so-called ultra orthodox are not fundamentalists.
4
First of all, Israel isn't a Jewish theocracy despite what others think. Just because there are ultra-Orthodox Jews in the Knesset doesn't make it one either. Also, the chief rabbi has no ties with either the prime minister or anyone in the Knesset either unlike the way the ayatollah does with the president of Iran. Nevertheless, Israel is still a democracy that grants rights to other groups unlike the rest of the Muslim nations that are known for mistreating minorities. Israel is even home to a number of churches, mosques, monasteries, Bahain temples, and so many other religious institutions that are almost rare everywhere else in the region especially in the Muslim nations due to them leaving due to constant persecutions. If Israel was really an apartheid state, then Arabs and Druze wouldn't have the right to even run for political office, vote in elections, get appointed for certain positions, or even have so many other jobs the Jews have, which wasn't the case for them in South Africa before their apartheid laws were abolished. BTW, just because there certain places you can't go to on Saturdays doesn't make it one either, because I know about places in the US and Europe that you can't go to on Sundays yet nobody shouts theocracy on that. Overall, Israel does have it flaws, but it's not a theocracy.
17
Indeed, leaders of India's Muslim communities (more Muslims in India than all the Arab states combined) visited Israel some years back and remarked that Muslims have more religious freedom in Israel than they do in India.
There are Muslim members of the Israeli Knesset (Parliament) as well; does that make Israel an Islamic theocracy? Of course not. Every single US President, Vice President, and (I think) Speaker of the House is and has been Christian, as have been and are the majority of Supreme Court justices, and probably most police chiefs etc. but most Americans and most other countries wouldn't say that those facts mean that the US is and has been a Christian theocracy (despite certain subgroups and perhaps their elected officials wanting it to become one).
9
Unlike what is the case of Israel's neighbors (especially Iran), the role of religion can be debated in Israel. This being said, Judaism is the basis of Israel's core existence and the reason why Jews around the world consider Israel as their second home and the place to go to would G'd forbid history repeat itself.
Jewish education and values are also at the base of Israel's achievements in medicine, technology, arts and so many other disciplines.
Israel and Judaism are Siamese twins that can not be separated.
However it is legitimate to question the contribution of some of Israel's ultra-orthodox citizens. If they wish to devote their life to study Torah, then they must work part of the time and not expect the State to pay for them. They should not be excluded from military service. They should also respect that other Israelis don't follow all or any religious rules.
But non-religious Israelis should respect that the orthodox are also part of Israel's DNA, and that demands compromise. Avigdor Lieberman is not anti-orthodox but wants a better balance between the orthodox and the secular.
10
How long will we have to pretend that the Palestinians aren't heading for the same fate as Native Americans in the United States?
17
@Peter Aretin
No one who knows the situation in West Bank is pretending. That is almost already a fact, and if the Jordan Valley is annexed, it will be all the more so. Gaza, on the other hand, is an entirely different animal. The issues there are more related to totalitarian cult-like religious and political control of all aspects of society, without any real interest in what average Gazans may or may not want. I haven't seen an equivalent in Native American reservations or communities in the United States. It is hard to explain, but it is very different than the Native American experience or the apartheid experience.
3
@Peter Aretin
Should Native Americans have separate countries be carved out for them? Can every ethnic and/or religious group in the world have their own independent country if it involves destroying the larger country in which they live, or live next door to?
4
@Rosalie Lieberman Indeed. There are at maximum 20 million Jews in the world. There are over 7 billion people in the world. By admission, Jews were not even the dominant population in the area that became Israel as recently as 71 years ago.
4
Why I don’t understand is why these “ultra religious” can’t do other service (say community) to the state of Israel if they can’t contribute by being in the military.
9
@Lisa
In the case of my ultra-orthodox cousins in Israel, that is exactly what they have done, including the women.
4
They DO engage in community service (especially the women), and to some of them (and to some non-ultra-orthodox Israelis), their hours of studying religious texts and fulfilling/enacting as many of the 613 biblical commandments, including prayer, IS a form of community service. Study of religious texts is sort of a form of prayer for them. The fact that prayer does not strike you as a worthy or meaningful or impactful activity does not necessarily mean it has no value and does no good.
I, too, think they should serve in the military, at least the men since the women do important jobs, as volunteers, in lieu of military service, such as performing critical labor in the healthcare system. But just as Americans allow for conscientious objectors despite the fact that during times of war they have been reviled and called coward, it is the prerogative of Israelis to determine that intensive prayer and textual study is a valid enough expression of deeply and sincerely-held values and moral conviction to warrant relief from conscription.
4
"[Republican voters] were appalled that the ultrareligious [born-agains] were willing to grant Mr. [Trump] immunity from prosecution, arguing that Mr. [Trump] was buying his way out of jail by allowing [states] to be turned into a theocracy."
Good News, November 2020
7
Religion, much like the Constitution, has to be fluid and reflect the changing times.
5
Here’s an outsiders perspective, not that anyone cares: ultra-orthodoxy is, by definition, a useless component of any society. It doesn’t think for itself, it’s exclusive, it inbreeds prolifically, shares little of itself with others and demands that its needs be met by others without compromise. It offers nothing to society at large; it contributes nothing.
Useless orientation, just taking up time and space.
33
As a reform/bordering on secular Jew who feels culturally and deeply connected to my Jewishness (23&Me has me as 99.8% Jewish), the sad state of affairs in Israel, pitting ultra-Orthodox and religious against those who choose to live a less observant life is exactly why I am losing the impetus to support Israel, either vocally or with money. Until the 10% allow the 44% to participate in determining the future of the country, it will mirror what is happening in the USA with evangelicals taking over the government.
21
-"Where are the kids? the husband asks his wife.
One’s at a party, one’s at the mall, one’s renewing his passport, and one got called into work.
“This is how our Shabbat will look,” the ad warns, “unless we protect it.”
Even if all travel were forbidden on Shabbat, those chairs would remain empty. The kids are not coming back. They will find their own homes, their own ways and leave.
On a deeper level: This is the problem with the ultra-religious or ultra-nationalist - Jewish, Christain, Muslim, Republican. You don't "protect" culture by denying others the right to enjoy theirs. If you want people to respect your rights, you must offer them respect as well.
Judaism is a beautiful religion, deeply spiritual and wonderfully renewing. It remains so, in the many variations alive in Israel and the US.
12
And so we see there are excellent reasons for the strict separation of church and state, and for prohibiting laws favoring or disadvantaging any religion or sect. We Americans, particularly Jews and Catholics, are lucky the founders of our nation realized that. I think the founders of the state of Israel failed to effect a proper separation because the sense of Jewish identity is so closely bound up in Judaism. To have a Jewish state that did not favor Judaism was almost a contradiction in terms.
9
@Michael Lusk Israel has separation of church and state, save for one thing: there is no civil marriage -- only religious marriage, whether Jewish, Muslim, Christian or whatever. That's a Turkish idea retained by Israel -- not a Jewish or Zionist one.
3
The actions, influence, and attitudes of the ultra-orthodox play a large role in the antagonization of Israel's neighbours, putting an increased burden on the IDF. It seems logical that they would not be exempt from military service.
18
@Greg
Really: exactly what business is that of yours? I have family in Israel who are secular, and one is career military. I have another part of the family who are ultr-orthodox. The army guys don't want the orthodox in their ranks--with their special dietary needs, schedule needs, and preaching their religio-political views. They don't want 'em.
10
@Greg
What role do they allegedly play in antagonizing Palestinians? On the contrary. The large ultra orthodox settlements in the West bank get along quite well with their Palestinian neighbors. Beitar next door to Husan is one example.
Greg, if the Hareidim did join the army, and the army was larger in scope, how would that impact relations with the Palestinians?
3
@Michael Problem is that based on demographic trends, the Haredi will be 40% of the population. So the army guys are going to have figure it out if they want to have an army in 50 years.
4
The ignorance and anti-semitism, much of it from Jews, reflected in this article, and the comments, is deeply disheartening. Judaism is the source of all the morality in the world. The majority of religious Jews work, support their families and pay taxes. And incidentally, it is proved from time time, by each new generation of secular sociologists that co-education benefits only boys. All-girl schools are much better for girls.
1
@C
Its the source of "all" morality? Thats depressing.
23
Of all morality? The belief in Us vs Them? The belief that Them are not human? It’s time for such beliefs to be pushed aside.
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@C The Bible is all the time best seller (and should be). Nevertheless, Judaism is not the source of all the morality in the world.
3
At the rate Israel is going, it would be come like Saudi Arabia. Complete with the use of Torah Law, like Shariah Law is doled out. Those who want this, will not be satisfied, unless only the ultra-Orthodox and Haredi have their way.
This is a a classic case is what happens when religion and democracy try to co-exist. Religion wins out. Though, not as extreme in the US, there are similar religious forced at work here. If the US evangelicals strongly ally with the Haredi, they could achieve their goal of building the Third Temple. Such a move, as the author indicates would cause a "holy war". A war between Christian, Jew, Muslim, Arab, Israeli, gentile and even Jew against Jew.
If I were a non-Orthodox Israeli taxpayer, I would not be happy having to subsidize large families, and be subject to military service, while they sit at home reading the Torah. Effectively, the ultra-Orthodox, and Haredi, have created a multi-level society, in which they occupy the highest level, and the rest of Israeli society serves them..
It is no small wonder, while American Jews are turning their backs on Israel. The country is at a crossroads. Is Israel the homeland of all Jews, or only the select few determined by a minority?
Finally, it is only a matter of time that these factions, expel everyone, except the ultra-Orthodox and Haredi. Will theese zealots go as far as wiping out any existence of Christianity and Islam sites in their zealotry?
21
@Nick Metrowsky
Having spent time in both Israel and Saudi Arabia, may I respectfully say this is about as false an analogy as one could make. What part of "Israel is largely secular nation" do you not get? What democratic institutions are there in Saudi Arabia in which these issues get fought out? Lots of Parliamentary coalition building going on there, eh? What independent newspapers are there in Saudi Arabia that publish a multiplicity of views on secular and religious views of a wide spectrum? What Universities are there in Saudi Arabia in which independent scholarship that does not conform to the royal views are permitted, let alone funded and encouraged?
12
@Nick Metrowsky The Jewish attitude towards the state has never been that of classical Islam. Render unto Caesar etc. was how one ancient Jew put it.
3
Israel today is a multicultural, multiethnic state and it is long past time to declare a separation of church and state like any other secular country. The myth of a "two-state solution" must die along with the myth of a "Jewish state". West Bank Arabs have been living in Israel for over a half-century and are as much Israelis as the Jewish residents. Orthodox Jews live peacefully with secular Jews in America and Europe. It is time for Israel to become a nation for all its citizens.
12
Maybe it's time to propose the 3 state solution.
10
An outsider view.
I am not a Jew nor am I an Israeli citizen. I am a Muslim father living in the greatest democracy in the world, United States of America. Our constitution guarantees that no one religion should be favored over other religions and no one should be discriminated against because of their religious affiliation. Most, unfortunately, not all agree. Indeed many supported and cheered Trump's Muslim ban. Not counting few Radio Talk Show hosts, no Jew, of any kind supported it. My 85 years old mother was pleasantly surprised when I shared the fact that all Jews secular and religious alike bitterly opposed it. In fact, many Rabbis were arrested doing just that.
As we observed for decades, the issue of role of religion in the affairs of a state is very complex one already but for Israel, it is even more complex than anywhere else. Israel was founded by those who were largely secular but have very valid reason to believe that centrality of Judaism can't be undermined in the Jewish State. While I don't support right wing politician and their political and expansionist ideas, one thing I agree with them. Israel minus the core values of Judaism is no Jewish state. The truths of Torah must be respected. No humist-naturalistic idea should ever prevail over the clear and unambiguous Torah teaching.
42
you've made a great contradiction though. You live in the US and value the separation of church and state, but claim that Israel needs to retain its adherence to the Torah. These things can't coexist, it's the central point of the article. Any state where a religion is given favoritism in any form is at its root a theocratic society. It's unfair to those who don't believe in the old books.
40
@AB,
I'm an American Jew and a Israel/Palestine peace activist for almost 40 years.
You are not an outsider.
I'm not as fervent a supporter of "clear and unambiguous Torah teaching" but it seems we still arrive in the same place.
This is because Judaism is as much a culture as a religion. Jews are a first people's as much as any other, and therefore it is a racist formulation to suggest the Jews do not have a right to a nation. No one would ever push that line of argument with Tibetans. (And no one ever suggests that Tibetans are not a culture because their culture is enmeshed in their religion, nor that they aren't a first people because there was an indigenous people--the "Bon"--upon which their culture and nation was built.)
I happen to believe that Palestinian culture is as precious as Jewish culture, and will continue to use all my efforts to push for a just treatment of our cousins, alongside a vibrant Israel.
26
@Greg
"Any state where a religion is given favoritism in any form is at its root a theocratic society." You have made a great contradiction yourself. The US has "in God we trust" on its currency, many of its states require you to put your hand on the bible when swearing to be truthful in a court of law, Christmas is given as a federal holiday but Rosh Hashonah is not, etc. Ireland is largely Catholic but that doesn't make it a theocratic society. Shinto is the national religion of Japan, but that doesn't make it a theocratic society. The world is not a graduate philosophy seminar in which you start with a Platonic ideal-type and then use at as a lens to describe the world. The world is what it is, and despite what I have said above, the United States is not a theocratic society, much as a Jewish nation of Israel is not necessarily either.
16
The upcoming Israeli election aside, the issue of how much longer secular taxpayers are willing to subsidize the lifestyle of the ultra Orthodox is also a thorny issue in Lakewood, New Jersey. From all appearances, the system in Lakewood is being milked by those who are savvy enough to know how, and the tab is being paid by everyone else.
35
Is the final scene in this story with an empty Shabbat table sad because the children have abandoned their faith -- or because they've abandoned their parents? Religions, including Judaism, have always conflated and blurred the distinctions between religious faith and belief on the ohe hand, and loyalty, obedience to and love for one's parents/grandparents on the other. The former is often based on and reinforced by the latter.
7
Spot on. And when religion does not work there is student debt insurance et al
There is nothing benign around spreading religiosity/religious rule of any kind.
10
Wrong - like it or not, civilization and cultures are founded on "religions." (Only mine is heavenly, of course.)
1
@Qxt63 and you think that influence has been benign?
2
I'm much less interested in this debate than in stopping the flow of American taxpayer dollars to a state committed to the permanent oppression and exploitation of the Palestinian people.
27
Israel should be a Jewish state as it's the only country where Jews are truly free from the pogroms and exterminations that have occurred for thousands of years. That said, it should be a Jewish state accommodating all flavors of Jews including the ultra-orthodox, orthodox, conservative and reform with no one group receiving any special privileges. If the ultra-orthodox want to spend all day studying as opposed to gainful employment I see no reason why the taxpayers as a whole should have to support them. In similar fashion, there should be no special exemptions for compulsory military service although those who object to carrying arms can be assigned other tasks.
17
The only state....um, what about US? Can’t remember any history of pogroms and there has been “ free exercise “ of their religion like all others.
17
you're understanding of history is a bit limited. True, no pogroms in the US, but plenty of neonazi terrorism against Jews has occurred in past and present. Add in the issues of slavery and the native genocide, it's not exactly the safest place for minority groups of all kinds.
8
Greg, but plenty of bad things Jews have done in the US (Jonathan Pollard spying, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Roman Polanski, Bernie Madoff, Meyer Lansky, etc). Jews have their share of bad actors (figure of speech) as well as real bad actors (Ben Stiller)
4
Thank you for this excellent article. I am a reform Jew and have been wary of Israel's policy decline for some time. I am also gay which drives home the inequity in the country. I strongly feel that one of the most dangerous threats to our world is the continued support and adherence to religious principles that are medieval and outdated. I also find it unbelievably ironic that secular and reform Jews are fighting to protect the ultra-orthodox in Israel's military. if military service is required of able bodied men then it should be all men. Perhaps the ultra-orthodox are worried their men will be unable to rest on Shabat during a war.
16
I wish there was a secular union, allowing Palestinians in Gaza to be part of Israel because Gaza has no economic future on its own. Or a Palestinian territory of Israel. Very difficult to achieve.
1
@NYT Reader
39 years ago when I became a Pro-Palestinian State activist while remaining a Zionist, I dreamed of "one land, two virtual nations" which is not that different than your "secular union" or federation. Then I spent almost 4 decades in and out of West Bank, Israel and Gaza, and became deeply aware of how ancient this hatred between cousins really is, and how complicated these issues are made by the neighborhood, geopolitical issues, secular vs. religious issues, Shia v. Sunni, and the ongoing cycle of violence. Now, like most Israelis and most Palestinians I know, I have no dreams left that would satisfy both peoples and achieve the national and cultural aspirations of both peoples. The dream is dead. Who knows, perhaps out of such a shared death--indeed, shared by many Palestinian and Israeli families who have had loved ones murdered--rebirth will emerge, if there is time.
2
@NYT Reader It can't happen until the Palestinians accept Jewish self-rule. They have not and that's the issue.
5
Take a close look, America. There are many in the USA who would like to establish something very like this, but for the benefit of conservative Christians.
31
It doesn't matter what faith tradition there is, fundamentalist will always wage war on education, women, secularism, and freedom.
15
@jrgolden That is precisely why I became an atheist at the age of 13. It was the happiest day of my life. I felt instantly liberated from the man made shackles I could never rationally justify or even temporarily tolerate. Freedom is a terrorizing concept for religious hollow dogma.
2
A very dystopian possibility for Israel ; frightening to think it could possibly happen . It seems in his eagerness to win at any cost Netanyahu's choice to please the ultra orthodox , imperils the majority of Israelis who wish to worship , and be governed by secular preferences .People should have the right to choose and not be dictated to by the minority . As it is the ultra orthodox have been gaming the system under the guise of the study of the Torah at the expense of the rest . All people should have the right to worship ( or not to worship) as they want and not have someone force their beliefs upon them . This simply is medieval and tyrannical , straight out "The Handmaiden's Tale ".
6
Israel is the textbook example of the absolute need for religion and politics to be separate, not equal, walled apart. Religion, like all human endeavors is insidious and upends so many foundations a state requires. Tax free treatment in the US, in effect a subsidy by the taxpayer is unfair and unequal. And let's forget about respect between the genders.
11
There is no such thing as a jewish democracy, a muslim democracy or any other form of religious democracy. The idea that Israel is a nation for jews only is anathema to the principles that all liberal democracies are based on. So, in the end, the more entrenched the religious right is and the more intransigent Israel is about Palestinian rights, be it the Palestinian Israelis or the Palestinians under occupation, the less viable a state of Israel is going to be.
Israeli settlers are at the root cause of the conflict. They are the ones preventing the full liberalization of Israel into the form of liberal democracies in the West. Today, Israel is not a democracy. No democracy occupies millions of people, has a Palestinian population that is either equal or greater in number than a jewish population, calls itself a jewish state and is a democracy.
In the end, Israel has to choose between the South Africa model of apartheid or a real democracy, end of story. The settlers need to be reined in once and for all. They need to decide what kind of future they want.
Speaking to some of my orthodox jewish acquaintances, they make it very clear: 1) the Torat is a good book but the Talmud is what they base life on, and with that 2) they fundamentally do not view Israel as a democracy in the image of the West, but rather, in a special place among nations.
The nation state is dead. Democracies, thankfully, made sure of that.
9
The informative article should also have mentioned that the ultra-Orthodox (Haredim) in Israel reject a basic high school education of English, science, math - just like the Haredim in New York, as the NYT has reported.
As a former Haredi Jew who grew up in Brooklyn, I was taught to wear the distinctive clothing of a black hat, black suit or black caftan, to distance myself from non-Jews and non-Orthodox Jews.
Haredim also interpret the Torah differently from non-Haredi Jews. For example, the Pentateuch commands to love thy neighbor, to return a lost object to your brother, to rescue your neighbor. In ultra-Orthodoxy, a "brother," "neighbor" or "friend" is only a fellow Jew, preferably an Orthodox Jew. Israel is facing a great crisis because Haredim and non-Haredi Jews have two different worldviews and this will lead to clashes.
13
@New Yorker No where in the first five books of the Bible does it say love your neighbor without conditions. Indeed, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are books that require children of god to show respect to their heavenly father and when they forget to do so they are severely punished.
1
You are not being fully transparent; Orthodox Judaism also believes the same about non-Jews as the Ultra-Orthodox. And some Reformed, Conservative, and secular Jews also share these beliefs.
1
I think Israel should adopt a law that until you serve in the IDF or some other public service organization for a defined period of time, you don’t get a vote in the Israeli elections - and that rule should apply to everyone, including the ultra-orthodox and the Arabs.
4
A partial solution: make military service a mandatory step for getting the right to vote?
3
@Solstice
Military service is required of all Israeli citizens. Apparently, not if you are ultra-Orthodox.
3
This article makes we want to never visit Israel. My sons have been there I have not. I grew up in a conservative traditional Jewish family that was decidedly anti-feminist. I was disgusted with their views. The article paints a picture of Israel that is not only anti-woman but anti-everything not ultra religious. Maybe Israels neighbors are their secret role models?
47
Just as American society on the whole, while admiring and respecting the Pilgrims, who came to these shores to avoid persecution for their beliefs, would shudder at the thought of having Pilgrim religious views and practices imposed on it today, so should the world, while admiring and respecting the historical Zionist initiative that brought immigrant refugees and settlers avoiding persecution for their beliefs and ethnicity to a land of opportunity in the Middle East, shudder at the twin threats of religious zealotry and ethnonationalism facing Israeli society today.
15
And some of my friends wonder why so many US secular Jews have totally abandoned any connection to Israel. The orthodox in any religion are by definition out of the mainstream and socially regressive. The Jewish Orthodox Israelis certainly aren't the most violent, but, they take the cake for entitlement and greed.
26
Any discussion about Israel must include questions and realistic answers on:
1. Will the Palestinians remain under permanent military occupation in the West Bank?
2. What will Israel do if the Palestinian Authority collapses due to some unforeseen event such as President Abbas retiring or passing away?
3. Do the ultra zealots want the policy of Israel to initiate and complete the eviction of the Palestinians from Israel and the occupied areas--which would be nothing more than "ethnic cleansing"--even if one says "send them to Jordan or Lebanon or Syria or someplace else?
4. How will the Jewish people deal with the situation when the Palestinian population exceeds the Jewish population in Israel and the occupied territories within the next few decades without imposing an Israeli form of apartheid or Jim Crow?
13
Why was "Israel" established in the Middle East? Why wasn't it established in a friendly environment? Like in the United States of America.
4
@Markku
Because the US was not friendly at the time. No refuge was being given in the run up, or during, WW2. After the establishment of Israel no aid of any importance was given by the US, certainly not military aid. That came much later and in dips.
A state within the US would never be given, and would never be autonomous. Zionism was started in the 19th century with the recognition that Jews needed their own autonomous state for protection and survival, just like nearly every other ethnic group currently and throughout history. Jews had to establish Israel were Israel has always been, and it's not going away. Support it or don't, doesn't matter.
5
@Markku The United States was not a friendly environment for Jews after WWII. Antisemitism was rampant, and it is hardly likely that any state or territory would have been turned over to any particular ethnic or religious group. Maybe Finland, with its large undeveloped areas in the north, would have been suitable for such an enterprise.
2
@Markku Since the Jewish people originated in the "Middle East" and had a kingdom there once upon a time, and their sacred sites are there, and some Jews have always lived there, why would a modern Israel be established anywhere else?
5
The headline creates a problem, and the problem ironically confirms the story's theme. The struggle, it seems, is how orthodox Israel will become, not how Jewish. To define a Jew by their level of observance is to negate the many Jews who follow the Reform, Conservative or other strains of the faith. It is to accept the convictions of those who say Jews who do not follow Orthodoxy as practiced by some in Israel are not Jews. And so, a fine story but a headline that headline that is less than accurate.
13
@Stephen Franklin "those who say Jews who do not follow Orthodoxy as practiced by some in Israel are not Jews." Who is that? An orthodox Jew would disagree vehemently with that.
1
I am an American Atheist whose grandparents fled Europe to escape the Nazis.
I married an American-born Palestinian woman from a Muslim family. All four of her grandparents were born under British Mandate Palestine.
She and I could not be legally married in Israel, and I could automatically get Israeli citizenship, despite the fact that I think the religion of Judaism is manifestly false. She could not only not get Israeli citizenship under any circumstances but would have trouble even entering the country, even in my company.
Is there anything about this that is fair, or makes any sense whatsoever? The problem is religion, on both sides. If tomorrow, all Israelis and all Palestinians became secular, they could just have one country and share it.
29
@Ben
Shows a profound lack of understanding of what a Jew is, even with the debate of what a Jew is. The Jewish citizens of Israel, secular, orthodox, or religious, all consider themselves Jewish and in need of a homeland nation for their protection. History, and current experience, shows that they are completely correct. Americans have a problem realizing that most of the world and throughout all history ethnic groups gather in ethnic homelands. It's not by accident, and the need has not passed. Israel is needed and isn't going anywhere. It will remain the Jewish homeland with or without your support.
11
@Mike Holloway
There are more Jews living in the United States than in Israel. If I were an Israeli Jew I would immigrate to the US post haste.
I reject the idea that someone can tell me my identity on the basis of my (long dead) grandparents. People convert in and out of religions - or give them up entirely - all the time.
Megachulo - maybe we would face worse treatment in the west bank. But neither situation is even REMOTELY like the situation we enjoy here, with our lovely first amendment and wall of separation between religion and the state... And, for the record, none of my in-laws have any problem with me, and my wife and I have visited Jordan together and never had an issue
1
@Ben I agree with you. very sad.
1
The question is not how Jewish the state should be but how orthodox or fundamentalist it should be. Judaism has come a long way... let's stop letting the orthodox define it for the rest of us.
16
@Mr. Marty Ultra orthodox and fundamentalist are not quite same phenomena. In any event, most Israelis, including ultra orthodox, do not want Israel to be ultra orthodox. If that were to pass, the entire case for ultra-orthodox military exemptions would collapse.
1
The Talmud- Study examption has been a bugaboo of mine since I first observed it in action 45 years ago. I remind the "ultra" orthodox of Nehemia 4:17, in which Jerusalem was rebuilt by workers with a tool in one hand and a sword in the other. Everybody prayed, everybody worked, everybody stood ready to fight, and Jerusalem was rebuilt.
For millenia Jews have been praying "Blessed is the Lord who rebuilds Jerusalem the Holy City in our time."
We have literally seen this prophecy come true, but where are these "ultra" orthodox when it is time to build or fight?
12
What will they do if the Messiah comes and tell them they got it all wrong. That all were to be included with equity.
4
@Ralph Petrillo
If the "Messiah" comes, tells them they're wrong, and they disagree with him, they just won't recognize him as the Messiah. That already happened 2019 years ago!
12
@Samuel Russell
You got it but don’t worry for god is on his way and the message is still and always has been that we are all gods children, in the reincarnation that we all go through “those we oppose and did not treat with equity we come back as. “ God has spoken .
2
That Israel is referred to as a 'Jewish' state, with a star of David on its flag, is the problem in and of itself.
All states are inspired by a morality, and Judaism is as good as any for a basis. But a religious state is a theocracy, and no theocracy on planet Earth is worthy of the diverse world we live in.
Theocracies have died like kingdoms as a modern way to govern, with the exception of the few that hang on. No surpise, you'll find most of them in the Middle East, which has a particular commitment to the primitive and base. In this regard, Netanyahu's Israel is no more advanced in mentality than his worst neighbor.
Once Israel was a place worth supporting and admiring. That's been over for almost 2 decades now. Time to let apartheid Israel support itself, send them no more money.
16
It seems that the system is evolving into a religious serfdom-the seculars fight and pay taxes to protect the right of the religious ( virtually the "clergy") to study and worship. When the state was first established the number of ultra-orthodox was a mere fraction of what it is now. Small wonder that the group has mushroomed, in Darwinian fashion, by reason of the support and protection it has received from the state. Israel can still be a Jewish state, with deep religious and ethical values, without developing a religious class system. Perhaps even more so without one.
5
As opposed to "how Jewish should the Jewish state be?," the more apt question seems, "what does it mean to be a Jewish state?," The issue, of course, is not one of volume or intensity - eg., how Jewish - there is passionate belief from all places and constructs of worship and political identity. The issue at hand is one of how this state, like others in the region and more globally, is going to wrestle with the role of a politically powerful ethno-nationalist minority, and how successfully that minority will define the identity of Israel. We have plenty of historically recent, compelling examples of the dangers of religious exceptionalism and the dangers of political parties exploiting their resentment and their votes. Many here in the states, participants in the Jewish diaspora, will eagerly watch what we have, and whether we have, learned.
2
"...which would nearly extinguish the possibility of a two-state solution..."
I wasn't aware that there was a possibility of a two state solution any more. Both sides have dug in deep with identical magical thinking. Each believes the other side is going to simply go away, like a puff of smoke. They're quite convinced of it.
4
The United States gives close to $50 billion to Israel each year, in economic and military assistance.
.
The ultra orthodox cost the economy of Israel about $25 billion each year.
It is clear that the United States. a country with Constitutional limitations on the relation between government and religion, more than subsidizes the entirety of the financial exemptions that Israel grants to the ultra-orthodox.
10
@HJB
No it doesn't. The figure is closer to $3-$4 billion per year. Very simple to verify with a google search.
4
@Mike
You are correct, as to the aid figure I used. See the Congressional Research Service report - https://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
I misread a multiyear estimate.
However, when we are talking in the billions, it is clear that the entirety of US aid to Israel is consumed by the Israeli government subsidy to the ultra-orthodox.
2
According to Jewish canon, a true religious state of Israel can only come to be with the coming of the Messiah.
Modern Israel is a democratic state founded by secularist Jewish refugees. Once founded, the Religious right woke up and began organizing politically, and is now a towering force based on the demographics of large families. If this momentum persists and as forecast, the country will be majority religious in 40 years, who will fill army boots in the IDF? Who will supply taxes to run a government? Who will make sure power runs on the Sabbath? The ER's are staffed on the High Holy Days? Guarantee freedom of choice to the irreligious to not keep Shabbos if they so choose?
Pragmatism, logic and history have shown that religion and government should always be separated. Even in a Jewish state. Democracy first, always.
Until the coming of the Messiah.
6
@megachulo According to Jewish cannon, teh Messiah will create a universal theism which will end Judaism. That's exactly what St. Paul and early Christians were talking about (not exterminating Jews but Jews and Greeks merging into a universal theism).
1
I am an American Jew who embraces my disaporic, Eastern European, Jewish identity. It is increasingly difficult for me to support Israeli policies, so much so that I am having misgivings about the Zionist project itself.
19
This is an excellent article that really gets at the enormous complexity of Israeli politics and identity, but beyond the quality of the writing I'd like to call out the excellent photographs that accompany the article. The images, especially of the park in Tel Aviv, rooftop bar and the religious kids in the park portray a very real, and to me very familiar, vision of the different worlds that Israeli society inhabits. Kudos to the Times for supporting great photography and photographers.
7
This is Israel’s problem. No one else. It is similar to deciding whether you should vote Democratic or Republican here.
3
More like which type of Democrat or Republican one is going to vote for -- an Evangelical or mainline or unaffiliated. Israel has so many different political parties, but the main distinction has been between the more liberal-leaning "Labor" party and the more right-leaning "Likud"
1
@DENOTE REDMOND
Voting Republican in America is an aggressive act towards Democracy around the world. Bad example.
5
@DENOTE REDMOND That's incorrect, as long as Israel is expecting American dollars to support its government, economy, and expansionist actions.
8
Just as American society on the whole, while admiring and respecting the Pilgrims, who came to these shores to avoid persecution for their beliefs, would shudder at the thought of having Pilgrim religious views and practices imposed on it today, so should the world, while admiring and respecting the historical Zionist initiative that brought immigrant refugees and settlers avoiding persecution for their beliefs and ethnicity to a land of opportunity in the Middle East, shudder at the twin threats of religious zealotry and ethnonationalism facing Israeli society today.
13
I am unabashedly pro-Netanyahu because he represents to me "Jewish strength and pride." I have recently switched my American civic loyalty in joining the Republican Party in gratitude to President Trump for recognizing Jerusalem as the Jewish 3000-year-old capital city. At the same time, I resonate to the Arabic language, which I studied in college and university for five years; and I foresee an autonomous Palestinian entity, say "Province," under Israeli sovereignty analogous to French Canadian Quebec in Canada. Things will quiet down after next Tuesday's elections in Israel, and the sky will not have fallen. The religious/secular divide will continue, and it will be underwhelming. Meanwhile, the Orthodox birthrate, which has been increasing the critical mass of Jews, will gain the respect for being the positive force in the growth of the Jewish people that it is.
3
Let me get this straight. The Ultra-Orthodox want to study their scriptures, breed prodigiously, avoid military service and not have to work to do so?
Sounds like a nice gig to me.
I can see why those who have or will serve in the military and have to pay taxes to support the subsidies have a little bit of annoyance at this continuing, all the while they cannot ride trains, buses nor transact business on a day of the week which to them carries little meaning or at the level those who are Ultra-Orthodox do. Sounds like some of the blue law states and the fundamentalists here who wish to impose their way of doing things upon everyone.
55
It is inaccurate to say that the ultra-orthodox don't work (for money). The men don't. The ultra-orthodox women do, and very hard, at that. In addition to shouldering most of the other burdens of raising children, keeping house, and taking care of older family members.
27
Going on in many forms and fashions in Ocean County NJ.
16
Ultra-Orthodox Judaism has no more or less to do with the ancient faith than any other modern-day branch of Judaism -- its idiosyncracies are 19th-century reactions to the onset of the Industrial Revolution. Leave Torah study to the brightest and most dedicated students in the Haredi communities. Everyone else, GET TO WORK. It's what your ancestors did!
40
What is the difference between an Ultra Orthodox Theocracy and a Shia Theocracy or a Sunni Theocracy? Letting any religion govern a nation is abhorrent. If Israel were attacked on the Sabbath would the Ultras sit on their hands and read their Torahs or would they fight? Anyone know?
45
@markd
Of course they would fight. The Sabbath can be broken in emergencies when lives are at stake. This already happened with the Yom Kippur War in 1973.
Depends on the particular individual and the particular branch of orthodoxy.
In general, however, almost any biblical commandment may be broken if it is to save a life (pekuah nefesh), including one's own.
3
I’m a non Jewish, non religious 45 year old white male living in Brooklyn. Half of my family is Jewish, but the “we’ve been in America since before WWI” type. They celebrate Hanukah and have Bar/Bat Mitzvahs etc. all of my life I’ve been around Jewish families and occasions. However I feel it is a fact of life that I will never have the opportunity to make an ultra orthodox friend. The community doesn’t really assimilate at all in this country. Twice I’ve been waved into apartments in Williamsburg to shut off a stovetop burner during the sabbath that was accidentally turned on, but other than that it’s incredibly rare that I even have a chance to speak with these folks. It makes for a bizarre and uncomfortable dichotomy, all the more so since I feel that even bringing this up will have me labeled as an anti Semite. It is fair for people like myself to question the unyielding loyalty the U.S. has to what seems to be a theocracy, and it is unfair to immediately label someone anti Semitic for asking questions.
52
Not sure I understand what you mean by "the we've been around since before WWI type." Most of my predecessors came to America before WWI, some well before that. So?
1
@Jewish2
The difference in Jewish communities can sometimes be understood in reference to when their ancestors immigrated to the USA. Early Jewish immigrants tended to be more liberal and cosmopolitan (i.e. German Jews). The later Russian, Polish and Eastern European Jews tended to be more religious.
I hope that helps.
11
Zionism, the creation of a Jewish state, is really a secular movement, despite some religious Jews who worked for it also, and Jews need to distinguish between their nationalism and their religion. All those bearded wonders were the types that Zionism sought to replace: replace the Jews reading the Talmud awaiting the arrival of Christian pogromists with armed nationalist Jews ready to fight.
6
Who is a Jew? Jews are not a race. This clearly can be seen by visiting Crown Heights or the Upper West Side. Thus, to be a Jew one must follow the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. As an African American, who is not a Jew, and understands the difference between race, ethnicity, and nationality, it's clear as day to me that "secular" Jews want their cake and want to eat it too. They can't have it both ways. You can't proclaim to be a Jew and not practice Judaism. Without the "Ultra Orthodox Jews", Jews and thus the Jewish state will not exist.
5
I beg to differ with much of what you wrote, and invite you, as a non-Jew, to visit and talk with more Jewish people and more variety of Jewish people.
I also wonder if you've ever taken a contemporary sociology class on race, class, religion, and ethnicity. Their are valid arguments that "race" in a more intense expression or experience of ethnicity, not something entirely distinct.
8
@Jonathan... and that’s a good thing?
1
Thank you for an article showing what democracy in action looks like: open and free discussion and arguments among the voters trying to decide the best way forward.
While Israel’s Parliamentary system of proportional representation remains a bit mysterious to Americans as it differs in key respects from our own, we too are now debating our own version of critical issues as the fateful 2020 election nears.
The election process is one of the basic values that binds the US and Israel in their close relationship, standing in sharp contrast, for example, to every other country in the Middle East.
7
The only hope for democracy in Israel is placing in the constitution a separation clause between synagogue and state.
14
American tax dollars should not be supporting misogynistic theocracies anywhere. Israel has to decide whether it wants to be a modern, inclusive society on the world stage or step back into the middle ages and fend for itself.
55
@theresa You mean an inclusive society like the United States? Do you really think the United States is an inclusive society?
2
@theresa Israel is a parliamentary democracy that has some religious party representation. This article details the long-standing internal conflict about the level of religious representation, especially given that the very religious are a minority. It is hardly a theocracy, and the day-to-day culture is largely secular. Women are well-represented in all secular institutions and industries, on par with the US, at least. They had a woman head-of-state decades ago. So, why the straw (wo)man?
2
WHY does the NYT (and others) repeatedly use images of ultra-ultra-orthodox Jewish people, usually men, to illustrate articles about Jewish people more generally? Hackneyed stereotype, much?! I don't see images of men in robes and clerical collars and scull caps illustrating nearly every article having to do with Catholic people.
Yes, this particular article addresses a question of how "Jewish" Israel should/will be, but the great majority of both Israeli and Diaspora Jewish people are not ultra-orthodox and do not dress in the 18th-19th-century Eastern-European royal fashion that happens to make them look anachronistic and out of place in our contemporary world. And there are other ways of being even ultra-orthodox that do not involve the traditional Hasidic look.
Insisting on communicating "Jewish" through the use of inaccurate stereotypes that simultaneously convey "other" and "out of place" does a disservice to readers and subject alike and, to me, borders on, and reinforces, an ugly unconscious bias.
The Eastern-European ultra-orthodox have a place in Jewish culture(s) and are a minority but fairly powerful force in Israeli politics; but people affiliated with other streams of Judaism (or none) are more common and more representative of the whole. How about the NYT reflecting this truth in its photo and other illustrations? It's past time.
12
@Wondering Jew those photos are used because that is the subject of the article. This was not a general piece about life in Israel, it was a piece about Ultra Orthodox Jews. If the article were about devout Muslims, it would be appropriate to picture a woman in a hijab, not a secular Muslim woman wearing jeans and a crop top
21
@Anjou
I respectfully disagree. The article is as much about non-ultra-orthodox Jewish people and Israelis (not all of whom are Jewish) as it is about the ultra-orthodox.
Indeed, many of the people quoted or described are NOT ultra- or any other kind of orthodox Jewish. The article seems to be more about attitudes about or toward ultra-orthodox Jewish Israelis, rather than about the people or communities themselves.
3
Anjou, I disagree that the article is about ultra-orthodox Jews. Rather, it is about Israeli politics and society and, in particular, how non-ultra-orthodox Jewish Israelis think and feel about the "Jewishness" of their country and government and the role a certain kind of Jewishness/Judaism should play in it.
1
This article states "These rebels say that the mushrooming ultra-Orthodox population, with its unemployed religious students and large families subsidized by the state, is imposing excessive fiscal and social burdens on other Israelis."
A recent article in the New York Times ("Keep the Hasidic Out’: A Small-Town Housing Showdown" on August 14, 2019) showed that a similar debate is happening closer to home - in the Hudson Valley.
39
What is a "secular jew"? Sounds as silly as me calling myself a "reformed catholic" (none of the church, all of the guilt). What is the point?
3
@Richard
You make an excellent point. One that ought to be discussed. But it won't.
2
@Richard Here's what it means. Any Jew who identifies as such does because of religion. The so-called Jewish culture is a product of the religion. In any place and time since Moses, there have been "secular" Jews -- those who intermingle freely with non-Jews. The fact is that secular Jews tend to assimilate (i.e. t heir children or grandchildren cease to be Jews) and the "religious" Jews replenish the ranks of the secular. Virtually every Jew is America is descended from some orthodox or ultra orthodox Jew or Jews in 19th century Europe. If you were to visit Israel in 2219, you'd find something like that had happened.
Democracy’s:
Can be sloppy... but they will eventually work it out .. or perish.. that’s how it works
3
While at first this reads as a dim portrait of the future of the Jewish State, consider this: In most countries, these sorts of religious disagreements devolve into bloody conflicts. In Israel, a Jewish democratic state, the issue is resolved at the ballot box and in the arena of public discourse. This is a marvel.
11
A Jewish democratic state ? A state that is Jewish, that is primarily for its religious constituents cannot be democratic. It’s one or the other.
12
"Israeli soldiers and children playing at a Jewish settlement in the West Bank city of Hebron."
The soldiers do not look like they are playing. The children do.
5
As a Jew ... The better question should be ... how Jewish are the majority of so called Orthodox Jews in light of the fact that they ignore or disobey 90% of the Holy Scriptures they claim to adhere to ?
The answer is despite the artifice ... not very Jewish at all ... which makes Israel a Theocracy in name only steeped in hypocrisy and dare I say it ... heresy
As for the authors question ? Assuming an Israel that takes the Scriptures seriously rather than constantly reinterpreting them to suit their own opinions and biases ...
Very secular ... seeing as how He Who's Name is Not Spoken made it clear from the moment the Israelites demanded a human king that the Theocracy was done and dusted never again to be revived
Sigh .... but there I go again demanding logical ( & theological ) constancy in a world where logical ( & theological ) consistency has become all but extinct
5
Productive citizens contributing to the economy and intellectual life of their country are being out-maneuvered by theocratic extremists. It's not really new, even in recent history. Look at Iran and Afghanistan. I am very sad about this trajectory in Israel.
18
Some might say "just look at what's happening in the U.S.."
3
If the question is 'how religious would we wish Israel state to be' only requires voters to decide how democratic we want our state to be. It's really not a hard decision for most of us.
5
The Israel government has never become totally secular. There is an official rabbi and a number of religious laws. I believe the head rabbi in Israel doesn't even recognize reform Jews as being Jewish and only people converted to Judaism by an orthodox rabbi are considered Jewish. I think it is hard for Americans only familiar with Judaism in the US to fully understand the situation if Israel. The two countries have a number of important differences when if comes to Jewish issues. With regard to the role of the Jewish religion in Israel it would seem that the conflicts are going to very difficult to resolve.
5
@Bob
Very few governments are totally secular. Here in Canada, an officially secular country, our holidays are mostly Christian (Christmas and Easter are official holidays but Yom Kippur is not). We are merely talking about degree. In the US you have regions of the country that, while not officially Christian, are de facto Christian lands because there's nary a non-Christian minority there. Governments in these parts of the states pander to conservative Christians by proclaiming their own religiosity and devoutness.
3
Alas, the curse of being chosen and the responsibility that comes with.
3
What people forget is David Ben Gurion acceded to the rabbis wishes and granted army exemption for yeshiva students because he truly believed that within 20 years, the yeshivas would be gone and the Orthodox would assimilate into secular society. He was so blinded by his own secularism, he could not foresee the resurgence of Torah Judaism. If you look at the photographs from the War of independence, you see yeshiva students with rifles fighting side-by-side their nonobservant brothers and sisters. But it was the secular leaders who created the situation. After the war, things were fluid and could have gone a different way.
7
Israel is as much a theocracy as any Muslim nation in the Middle East.
Just like theocracies anywhere, the Israeli "ultras" are willing to compromise principles in order to maintain power. Just look how Christian evangelicals have embraced Trump and the republican party.
At one time, religions were the building blocks of civilization. Whether the "ten commandments," or the prohibitions of certain foods like uncooked pork, or similar. Today, they are exclusionary organizations dedicated primarily to maintaining their own political power. Too often, they do so by demonizing anyone who is not as orthodox as themselves.
The United States should curtail its relations with theocracies. All of them. Including Israel.
23
@TDurk
The participation of devoutly religious people in the government of a nation does not mean the country is a theocracy. Orthodox Jews are citizens of Israel and have every right to fully participate in the democratic management of the country (even if you disagree with their policies). If your bar for a theocracy is so low then your United States should curtail relations with itself given the significant religiosity of huge swathes of the American population and the policies they support (abortion restriction being one among many).
3
I’m afraid that I long since pretty much got over any surprise at seeing right-wingers and the ultra-whatever religious demand all the perqs and privileges, and scream when they’re asked to accept any of the responsibilities, from taxes to military services to tolerance.
Far as I’m concerned, too, the only diff between the ultra-Orthodox, the radical Wahabis, the farthest-out there Hindus, and the shabby likes of “Pastor,” Kevin Swanson is the dress code.
Oh, and in response to several—us lib’ruls are always being told we have to listen, have to accept, have to be tolerant, have to celebrate. So my question is, when comes the day that these guys listen, accept, tolerate, celebrate us?
11
So in Israel the pious study and don’t need to serve. In this country rich college students study and don’t need to serve. Perhaps both countries need to re examine national service requirements.
10
Evangelizing, in the Christian context, means actively seeking converts.
I have never seen an Orthodox group actively seeking converts to Judaism.
6
@Ken
In this context it probably refers to the very religious Jews who work to bring secular or non religious Jews "back to the fold." In their minds, high-holiday Jews and atheist Jews are not actually Jews because they dont practice the religion. They want them to practice the religion, not just use the label of "Jewish."
5
When we came to this country in the 1980s from the USSR, the local Los Angeles Jewish community tried to indoctrinate us. This community was tightly controlled and all tied back to some Rabbi in Israel. Within a couple of months my family realized they wanted nothing to do with it because neither the conservative culture nor policies of this organization represented our views. And there was something very unsavory about their aggressive recruitment tactics.
This is the problem when you mash together a religion and an ethnicity.
9
These ultra Orthodox people are living on taxpayers dime in this country as well because they vote as a bloc for politicians who let them do whatever they want. This needs to stop.
14
How can the very religious want to finally end the (now already remote) two-state solution possibility while annexing and settling the lands to the Jordan River and at the SAME time exempt themselves from fighting, from the military might that will be necessary to maintain this perceived/actual theft and occupation?
How is it sustainable that the minority will get it's way over the overwhelming majority?
Is this a slo-mo completing of years of ongoing facts on the ground against international law?
What are the consequences? What happens to the Palestinian population? Do they just roll over? (No.)
So this is pivotal for Israel. The fractures maybe a good thing. Voters will have choose who gets to choose who is Jewish enough. But they are really choosing more than that.
Disappointing that Israel has come to this but it is a result of years of the prevailing goal to occupy all the land, without Arabs in it.
6
It's going to be just another penny-ante, Middle East theocracy, where criticizing the regime equals blasphemy. What a surprise. Nothing solidifies the "us v. them and God's on our side" mentality like a solid base of fundamentalistic religion.
And, they have nuclear weapons! Why worry?
9
The solution is compromise :
Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people and must uphold fundamental Jewish religious and ethical values ;
At the same time it is time for the ultra- religious Jews to realize that if they want to remain in Israel and benefit from Israeli society, their adherents must contribute to the Israeli society by agreeing to also perform either military or civilian service.
... I believe that a suitable compromise can be reached ...
74
@Henry’s I think you're referring to freedom of religion that is guaranteed by Western secular states, the future of Israel will depend on its ability to integrate a spectrum of faiths
8
@Henry’s
A nation state that focuses on one faith and only upholds the fundamental religious and ethical values of that faith, is NOT a democracy.
22
@Henry’s When pigs fly. The Haredim will never relinquish their sweetheart deal of subsidizing all manner of unproductive endeavors. Prey tell me what great discoveries and insights have come from the hundreds of thousands of students in Yeshivot? Have they contributed to health, happiness, liberty or commerce?
18
I dream of an Israel that embraces its refugee foundation and opens itself to people of all backgrounds that need shelter. Humanity cannot continue down the path of destructive closed ethnonationalism, Israel too must become an open society. If it requires targeted international sanctions so be it, this transformation must take place or Israel will not survive.
173
@Mitchell Powell If Israel follows your advice it won't survive, since it's a tiny but prosperous country that would immediately be overrun by waves of migrants if they opened their borders.
25
@Mitchell Powell Excellent point. We keep seeing refugees as a problem, and not the solution they are. The only way to continue growing an economy, without increasing the birth rate and the global population, is immigration.
10
@KM I disagree completely. People are the answer to the question of growth, not the problem.
The economic benefits would be profound for Israel. The new investments, the new businesses required to support all these people, would be a boon that every one of their neighbors would see, and then try to emulate.
When people dehumanize other people by referring to them with metaphors of natural disasters or military conquest, they are showing their hands. All they got is racism.
18
Sadly, Israel is sounding more and more like their neighbors, where fundamentalists dictate to other how to think, speak, and so on. That is not the Israel of our founders.
God speaks to all who want to listen, not just to a specific 'sect' who think their's is 'the word'--and other are infidels. That is ego-not spirituality.
Judaic law is rich in charity. The Talmud is rich in debate and dialogue. We cannot lose site of this essence of Judaism. But sadly, the ultras want to do just that--stifle the richness and diversity that has made Israel great.
229
@AG
Good point. In reading the article, also, I felt that the Haredi were indistinguishable from our own Evangelical Christians. The Christian Dominionists are after creating a theocracy here. The Haredi seem to want to turn Israel into the newest theocracy in the region.
The party spokesman saying "No one's calling for a theocracy" is being disingenuous. Sure! No one is standing on a soapbox and saying "Hey, kids! Let's create a theocracy!". No one would. They don't want to risk the election for their benefactor.
Still, a theocracy is what they are after - whether or not they choose to call it that. Why else revise laws so that they are based on the Torah? How is that in any way different from what Iran or Saudi Arabia do or, for that matter, what Evangelicals want to do here with their "Bible-based" legislative initiatives?
Ironically, Evangelicals are very supportive of those in Israel who want to create a theocracy and re-establish temple worship. Their reasoning is that it will hasten the Second Coming of Jesus. The expected outcome of that, if you leave aside fevered dreams of rapture, is the consignment of their list of non-favored groups (Jews, Catholics, Muslims...) to the realms of Satan. What they forget is that, should the Haredi have their way, Christianity also would be disfavored in Israel.
I hope the people of Israel choose wisely, and elect a different leader - one who can preserve the democratic state envisioned by the founders.
62
@Andy Jo
Bingo! Couldn’t have said it better myself!
1
i am a religious jew, and there is no reason why "ultra"-religious jews in israel cant work and serve in the army like the secular and religious. utterly intolerable, and makes the religion look bad, which is really unforgivable.
there was a time in our history when very religious jews worked and fought in the army. there is no compelling reason that had to change.
453
There are two of the Ten Commandments that can not be followed in the armed services: “Thou shalt not kill” and “Thou shalt honor the Sabbath and keep it holy.” The Ten Commandments must be honored by religious Jews, there are no exemptions.
1
@Ari Weitzner
It isn't just the lack of service in the military that makes them look bad. The big hats (made in Spain of all places) and how they wear their hair and beards really does not help much either...speaking as one who was kicked out of the Rabbi Epstein Hebrew Academy at the age of 6. The happiest day of my life..
57
@ScottC The commandment is thou shalt not murder. That is different from thou shalt not kill. Christians mistranslated it. And keeping the Sabbath does not prevent Jews from fighting on Shabbat. This is recognized in the Mishnah and before. The only limitation is that one may only fight in defense on the sabbath, and "defense" is a very elastic term.
108
When I was young support for Israel was an article of faith, so to speak, among American Jewry. I brought a dime to Hebrew school every week to buy a leaf sticker to paste on a tree drawing on the classroom wall and then all 15 leaves were covered I'd planted another tree had been planted in the Negev. Watching "The Spy" on Netflix evoked a sense of nostalgia for those times when it seemed clear to us that Israel deserved almost unquestioned loyalty.
Now, like a growing number of American Jews, I consider many policies and pronouncements of the Israeli regime antithetical to human decency and have concluded that no theocratic government can properly serve all its citizens. So I do not see the issue that sparked this election — special rights and privileges for the "ultra-Orthodox" — as ironic but rather central to how Israel is perceived here and throughout the Diaspora. The coming election gives Israelis yet another chance to chart a course that merits my return to the fold.
404
@Edward
Israel is not a theocracy.
Theocracy is rule by the clergy.
Israel is a democracy - rule by the people, not by the clergy
Netanyahu is not a rabbi.
Israel doesn’t even have an official religion.
Palestine does.
The Palestinian Constitution establishes Islam as the only “official religion” and requires that “the principles of Islamic Sharia shall be the main source of legislation.”
31
@Edward
The thought was wonderful for young children to plant a tree. But those forests were to cover the land confiscated from Palestinians. More than 500 villages were demolished in 1948, and covered up. In many forests such as Biliin you can see rubble from Palestinian homes.
The JNF was quite a campaign.
30
@m1945 - when only Orthodox rules are applied to marriage and divorce, and when the Jewish Sabbath is enforced by mandating that businesses and public services close, that is the state endorsing one religion, even if it doesn't say in that state's constitution that "this is our official religion". That doesn't mean that Israel is completely a theocracy, but it does mean that there isn't guaranteed freedom of religion as we understand it in the U.S.
87
I resent the phrasing of the question “How Jewish should the Jewish state be?”
I am a Jew.
I also may be an atheist, an agnostic, or, simply indifferent to religious belief.
I am, however, EVERY BIT AS JEWISH, as any ultra-orthodox Jew.
Because the question is wrongly phrased, the arguments are skewed in nonproductive directions.
The question is how much power should the ultra orthodox have?
The answer, as much as they can get, like any faction.
It’s up to the citizens of Israel to check their power.
I think Israel has had enough of their over influence.
47
We face an ever-increasing trend toward authoritarian fringe-religious autocracy today. ISIS, Taliban, Sharia, etc. are driving millions back into the 14th Century, destroying human rights and granting power to a bunch of despotic rulers.
Yes, even the Ultra-Orthodox Jews fall into that category from my point of view. They may stress intellectual pursuits but they cede little to their followers in terms of independence.
I am a Jew, a Cohen, and I understand what I am saying. The world, in many ways, has progressed from the days of Abraham and the guidance of the Old Testament has helped considerably. It, and the "New" Testament have, however, been perverted to say whatever the "leaders" of organized religion want them to, as has the K'Uran. Jim Jones had his own brand of insanity, as do many others. Evangelicals and those who embrace and encourage the "Rapture" are also delusional, destructive and use their beliefs to justify all sorts of inhumane and illegal actions.
If civilization is to survive and flourish, there must be common and realistic MODERN goals and actions - ones that reflect what we have learned through centuries of needless conflict. We see none of these from the fringes and none from Trump and his troglodyte minions.
We cannot, and SHALL NOT, become a Gilead post-apocalyptic Theocracy!
34
I have never understood how a democracy can also be a church state. How can religious law rule a population that has non Jews in it. There has to be a separation of church and state. How can a government run public school require 9 hours a week of tora instruction? How would that work if here in NYC public schools required Bible study?
20
I mountain bike in the Northeast. At the parks there are often huge Hasidic families in minivans on a kind of permanent vacation subsidized by welfare. They don’t ride, can barely speak English, and can’t follow the instructions from the lift operators. When a couple or family decides to ride we know that the chair will stall because they won’t get out in time.
Once, After a day of riding at Killington my so. And I were lounging in a pool. Outside the gate we saw a girl who was around 6 years old, sweating, and staring at us as she pretended to splash water on herself. She was not happy.
Is this what we want as our future? Boys who can’t sign their names and girls who are baby factories.
My belief is that subsidies should stop after 2 kids. These programs were never designed to be a meal ticket. You need to do more than study the Torah and collect a free paycheck.
57
The world has too many theocracies. The US should not prop up any of them.
36
Good question. Maybe someone should ask the Palestinians? Yeah, them, the other large block of citizens in the only "democracy" in the Middle East.
17
I can think of no theocratic state that has lasted 100 years. I hope Israelis take that history lesson to heart when they vote next week.
And, oh, the irony that the most "religious" don't serve in the military or pay taxes through work, and turn a blind eye to brazen corruption.
11
Secular diaspora Jews will stop supporting Israel.
Secular Israeli citizens will emigrate.
25
@turbot
Given the significant anti-immigration sentiment in most parts of the world (and especially the parts of the world that are attractive to would-be 'secular Israeli' citizens) - I am curious to know where you suppose these secular Israelis will go to?
1
All religions appear to share the similar situation of having a group of zealots. These folks are convinced that God has singled them out to purify everyone else. There are groups such as Iranian Ayatollahs within Islam, Evangelicals within Christianity and Super Orthodox Jews.
They all test the limits of free speech and loving thy neighbor. Crafty politicians are swift to harness these zealots to support un-democratic objectives. Does Israel want to become a Jewish Iran?
32
Some yes, some no. There are more no’s than yeses. But, of course, the yeses are better than everyone else.
Only a Jewish state can guarantee the safety of the Jews. The opposite view that a 100% secular and "equidistant" state would provide safety is totally delusional. On paper all European states are secular and equidistant, yet we know how that played out. Just look at the Jews in France today.
10
@Gabe
What about the safety and security of the Palestinian people? How much do they have to give up?
1
It is unknown how this will all play out, but one dynamic that has not been mentioned is the total collapse within Israel of any plan or hope for peace with the Palestinians. Avigdor Lieberman's views on the Palestinians and the future of the West Bank are abhorrent. But given that no one believes that any progress will be made, more liberal minded Israelis may decide "let's worry about our lives in Israel" and align with Lieberman in a way that they never would have if peace had been a real prospect. So, ironically, it is the complete collapse of the peace process, which Netanyahu has contributed to and thoroughly supports, that may be his undoing.
15
@Mark Kuperberg The peace plan was not mentioned because the article was not about the peace plan. Israelis are voting for a leader and a government reorganization. The Palestinian conflict is but only one facet of the issues at hand. Israeli citizens are voting about their economy, jobs, education, government services, taxes, and everything else that a typical US voter would consider. They are also voting about their security. Sure the peace plan is important but there are many other issues voters need to consider and the NYT is merely pointing one of these out. Israelis do not vote only for the resolution of the conflict. Further, there are not really vast differences between the candidates candidates regarding security issues. No candidate will do anything to reduce security and both may increase it if elected.
6
I’m a secular Jew, but proudly traditional Israeli, now living amidst a diffuse and undifferentiated community in the US. When I immigrated, complete and seamless assimilation was the goal; not unlike my Hungarian relatives who lost their Jewish identity to protect themselves in the 40s and 50s. With the current rise of anti-Semitism, it seems the diaspora is struggling with these same challenges today. And that makes me miss Israel a lot...
Israelis today are bound by a mutual culture that’s inextricably linked to the religion upon which the state was founded. Tolerance and curiosity are fundamental tenants of Judaism, yet those at both extremes of the religious spectrum seem to have forgotten this. Liberal/ secular Israelis may now believe they want to disempower the religious right, but until they emigrate they won’t know what they’ll be missing.
Secular Israelis love their holidays - Tel Aviv’s beaches are bursting on Saturdays, streets on Yom Kippur are completely barren throughout the country, and families come together Friday nights as a norm - all of this cultivating a strong sense of nationalism and community. These rituals are based on religious practice, and without them Israel will lose its identity. I hope all Israelis will rediscover the tolerance Judaism affords, and learn to accept some bad in exchange for all the good this religious backbone provides.
12
I’m always curious: when does the Right, and when do radical religious loons, start accepting “the bad,” about the overwhelming majority of their fellow citizens? When do they even start listening?
12
Firstly, you have a couple pictures with a caption saying the people in them are ultra-Orthodox, when the people are clearly not ultra-Orthodox, but just regular run of the mill Orthodox. I am not really sure the NYT knows the difference, but there is a big one.
Secondly, stop using the term ultra-Orthodox. It is an offensive term. the 'ultra' before 'Orthodox' plays a distancing function, as if to say those people are objectively too extreme. The 'ultra' justifies disagreement. It it like calling someone ultra left-wing. Calling someone ultra left-wing is just a way of saying that your disagreement with them is justified, and furthermore that their opinions are not even worth engaging with or taking seriously. The 'ultra' is a term of othering. It allows people to feel justified in their dislike of or disagreement of a particular group.
A good rule for telling if a term is an appropriate label for a group: is that label how the group self-identifies? If not, don't use the term.
Ultra-Orthodox Jews don't call themselves Ultra-Orthodox. They call themselves Charedim or Chasidim (these are two separate groups).
8
@EL the nomenclature Ultra-Orthodox: it appears that the "Ultra" is a sign of derogatory design and bias by the liberal and secular protesting the privileges and, to their minds, unacceptable power over the entire population in many areas of religious conduct, marrying etc. as well as the 'parasitic' existence of a privileged sector of Israeli society at the expense of the working majority. The language bias is a form of resentment and not a respectful recognition of the Charedim or Chasidim
1
Be careful what you wish for; you may get it.
If Israel annexes the West Bank it will create more problems that it solves... They will have to allow the current residents nationality and a vote; and the world will condemn it including the US after Trump the Hump is booted out.
Netanyahu may win an election but Israel will inherit unending conflict.
16
@Rudran
To be fair the conflict is already unending. I don't foresee it ending because of the irreconcilable narratives of who the land belongs to. Recall that in 1948 and earlier there was no country of Palestine/Israel and the Jews and Arabs were fighting. And they continue to this day.
1
Regarding the ultra orthodox in Israel, I couldn’t help but see the similarities and commonalities between the evangelical communities in the US and the religiously conservative elements in countries like Iran with some aspects of this group of Israelis. They all see like vegetables in the same stew. They may have different colors and shapes but they’re all in the same pot together preaching exclusion, superiority, and the desire to control others. Very difficult to see any moral high ground here. I fully expect to be labeled anti-Semitic by some. But to me, religious bigotry has universal characteristics.
82
@Denis George
Extremism is alway dangerous no matter what the religion.
22
The only women included in the photos are those in the ‘secular’ settings, and they are bystanders.
21
Just enough to rally. More would be too obvious. Ethnicity and religion is one and the same thing.
Without compromising national security it is time for a more moderate Prime Minister. In my view the ultra orthodox have too much power and impose minority values on the vast majority of Israelis.Day to day life in Israel needs to satisfy the needs of most Israelis who are clearly secular Jews like so many in North America.And furthermore a reduction in Trump’s influence can only be a good thing.
19
This article could be about Saudi Arabia - just swap out the names, places, and religion.
31
@Chris of course Saudi Arabia is well known for its political debate and frequent elections
8
Sure, but if bribing a fanatical minority of identitarian religionists is the path to power, I wouldn’t count political debate and elections as the institutions that make Israel exceptional to Saudi Arabia.
2
The two-state solution requires that each state live in peace with the other.
In every vote ever taken, more than two-thirds of the Palestinian population stated the destruction of Israel was their number one priority.
Checkmate.
5
@Diogenes
Don't worry, Israel managed to get the majority of Palestinians out of Israel and have done a good job of containing them. They can do it again.
And they have Trump's and our evangelistic community support, what more can they need?
Just take away the vote of the non Jews and tell them to leave. Problem solved.
1
The ultra-Orthodox in their "studies" instead of working and serving society sound a lot like the Saudis and Pakistanis who study Islam instead of getting a trade and real work. This is a recipe for disaster in Israel, just as it is in Saudi Arabia. Israel does not need to worry about an Arab invasion or Palestinian - it will collapse from within. I mean, who killed Rabin?
28
I have watched my partner's family work through their values, ideas and ideals as to what a modern Israel society might or ought to be and what the reality is on the ground. At the dinner table the points of view are strong and poignant. As the goyishe gay partner, in a manner of speaking, I do not have standing to say much or add to the debate. The pained expressions on many faces tells me volumes on how difficult and divisive are the passions of supporters of Israel. At the heart of the unspoken conflict I see in many, is can one be a good Jew and yet not be a supporter of current Israeli society and politics.
8
It's quite simple really. The world is moving toward greater enlightenment and as human history has shown right up to current events, religious extremism, whether in Judaism, Christianity, Islam or Buddhism, has no place in a moral world.
If Israel's democratic experiment, like our own, is to survive, there must be separation of church and state, full stop.
109
Who's Israel's real enemy? In this climate, could Israel survive as a State without the conflict with the Palestinians?
7
Thank you for this important article. This has always been the real issue - the brewing civil war between Jews.
12
@S It won't happen.
1
Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
― George Orwell, 1984
65
...and a half century illegal (under international law) occupation of an entire people, numbering in the millions with most never knowing anywhere else as home, remains, unbelievably, as a background secondary issue.
33
@Robert Mescolotto
Let us know when President Abbas, now in the 15th year of his 4 year term of office, finally comes up with a peace plan to bring to the negotiating table. Don't hold your breath, though, as the wait for responsible Palestinian leadership now is approaching 72 years.
12
I would like to see a similar article written about the U.S. Whereas the ultra-orthodox number around 10% in Israel, evangelicals pose a greater threat of turning the U.S. into a theocracy. Having visited Israel seven times, I can say that I feel safer in my secularism there than here.
58
If Israel were a beehive, the ultra-Orthodox would be the drone bees.
Spending so much of their time in religious studies, they are under-educated in secular skills to be economically productive. With such large families, they live in substandard economic conditions.
Years ago, I was an economic consultant to the Israeli government energy sector. There were many bright and talented people. But some Orthodox persons were put into middle to higher level positions, I believe they were political appointees as a result of coalition governments that included splinter ultra-Orthodox representation. In terms of their secular performance, they were definitely less qualified to do their assigned jobs.
Because of the difference in birth rates, the ultra-Orthodox as a percentage of total Jewish Israelis is growing. Unless there is a change, the drone bee proportion of the hive will reach hard to manage levels.
American ultra-Orthodox are sufficiently economically productive to support themselves, so it isn't impossible.
13
@RM I suspect the Haredim ("ultra-orthodox") could very well be under-educated in their study of the Torah.
I don’t support a Christian state or theocracy, so am I anti-Christian? I am, of course, fine with a Christian majority democratic state that provides full and equal rights to its non-Christian citizens.
I don’t support a Hindu state or theocracy, so am I anti-Hindu? I am, of course, fine with a Hindu majority democratic state that provides full and equal rights to its non-Hindu citizens.
I don’t support a Buddhist state or theocracy, so am I anti-Buddhist? I am, of course, fine with a Buddhist majority democratic state that provides full and equal rights to its non-Buddhist citizens.
I don’t support an Islamic state or theocracy, so am I an Islamophobe? I am, of course, fine with a Muslim majority democratic state that provides full and equal rights to its non-Muslim citizens.
I don’t support a Jewish state or theocracy, so am I an anti-Semite? I am, of course, fine with Jewish majority democratic state that provides full and equal rights to its non-Jewish citizens.
We should not hold a Jewish majority state to some higher standard than other states, but it should not be held to lower standards either.
I have always supported a two-state solution - Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish majority nation with safe and secure borders and Palestine’s right to exist with safe and secure borders. After the Holocaust, it is essential that there be a Jewish majority state that is a sanctuary for all Jews worldwide. But that state cannot destroy or deny Palestinian human rights.
104
@MC 1) Must all Palestinian stakeholders agree to the right to existence of the Israeli state prior to negotiations?
2) In the context of this article, who decides who is Jewish enough to be allowed sanctuary in Israel?
3) What happens to current Arab citizens of Israel?
The peace process for Israel and its neighbors is as complicated as any in the world; to trust American policy to a man (Kushner) whose only qualification is his relationship to Trump is an abuse of power.
The current election may or may not change the environment in Israel for a long-over-due peace process to start again. Netanyahu is not the only option for a government in Israel; opposing his government is not anti-Semitic.
7
@Lynda
1) Depends what you mean by stakeholders? No, if it means all Palestinian groups or all Palestinians, since that’s an unrealistic and unfair precondition. Yes, if it means who represents all Palestinians - that’s PA in West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. PA has rejected terrorism and recognizes the right of Israel to exist. Hamas has not rejected terrorism and does not recognize the right to Israel to exist. So PA can be a negotiating partner; Hamas cannot until it rejects terrorism and recognizes Israel. Israel needs to recognize the right to a Palestinian state - they did so with Oslo in 1993, but the details of that state matter. Likud has always denied the right to a Palestinian state in historic Mandatory Palestine. Netanyahu has continually worked to make a two-state solution impossible (he has largely succeeded). Arafat was ultimately a disaster for the Palestinian people.
2) The State of Israel. Every country gets to decide their immigration policies.
3) They should be treated as citizens of Israel with equal rights (few countries achieve that equal rights for minorities, but that should always be the goal and the law).
We don’t know the details of the Kushner plan, but what was revealed on the economic side in Bahrain was a joke. Kushner is completely unqualified for the job - all Americans should be horrified and embarrassed that Kushner gets the job since he is the President’s son-in-law.
Of course, it’s not anti-Semitic to criticize the Netanyahu government.
1
As usual an article about one subject is used to pushed other views, in this case, among other things, Hebron. A little history about how Jews lived in Hebron for thousands of years until murdered and driven out in the early part of the last century would have provided a little balance...
8
The article by Kershner & Halbfinger insinuates that Israel is a "Jewish state" while focusing on the rights of a Jewish sub-population. It promotes a concept that has no legal standing. Israel is a safe home for the Jewish people. It is not a "Jewish state".
8
@Greg
On 19 July 2017 Israel passed a law that specified the State of Israel as the Nation State of the Jewish People with self determination a unique right of the Jewish people. Look it up.
1
Israel was intended to be a safe haven for the Jewish people, not a Jewish state.
The Balfour Declaration did not promise the Jewish people a state, but rather ‘a national home,’ and that it was to be established in a manner that did not interfere with the ‘civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.’
In 1939 the British Government clarified the Balfour Declaration, by publishing a white paper that capped Jewish immigration into Palestine and stated “unequivocally” that the Jewish homeland should not become a Jewish state.
When the United States of America recognized Israel in 1948, President Truman explicitly declined to use the terms "the new jewish state" and instead crossed out those words and replaced them with "the State of Israel".
360
Greg, you are correct. I remind everyone reading that Theodore Hertzel was absolutely not a religious man. Israel was a safe haven for Jews after Europe attempted to decimate them so this idea of turning Israel, modern Israel into a religious state is simply an incorrect assumption and will not work in this current world, at all
82
@Greg - I question whether Israel is still a "safe haven for the Jewish people." The ultra-orthodox who have achieved dangerously out-sized power in Israel, do not recognize most diaspora Jews as being Jewish.
Israel is not and cannot follow the precepts of its recent history back to its 1948 re-emergence into a nation. What I hope it can do is to live up to the magnificent moral and ethical basis of Judaism's 4,000 year old history.
23
@Greg
Your response is misguided. I agree that the dominance of the religious right compromises the values of the state of Israel, however, not for the reasons which you state. The Balfour Declaration was a product of the British Empire! Of course, they were trying to minimize the rights of the Jewish people to a homeland. You can talk about betraying the vision of Israel's original Jewish founders, but citing the Balfour Declaration and Truman is irrelevant.
16
Yep. We're in a pickle, and it's not a particularly kosher dill one.
We all need to pray for a miracle on Tuesday.
22
@Elisheva Lahav That's why we need sour pickles-the rest are imposters. Know where to find them?
Too much religiosity is never a good thing. How can anyone argue with the unseeable? It’s just too easy to abuse.
“God told me this.” Please.
Separation of church and state is the only way to keep the peace.
174
The Jewish people were given a safe refuge at the expense of the Palestinian people. The Jewish people were not given a Jewish state, as clearly stated by the Balfour Declaration and the British White Paper to follow, and accepted by the Zionists at that time.
The State of Israel is recognized and protected by the world of nations. A "Jewish State of Israel" is not, and will not be, recognized by the world community.
71
@Greg
''The State of Israel is recognized and protected by the world of nations''
In the past wars when the bullets started flying the Israeli's stood and died alone. Too often all the orthodox did was pray.
At times Israel had logistical and intelligence backing from the U.S.
4
@Greg OK for real now. I am 100% for a State of Israel. However, why does the "world community" recognize Saudi Arabia, where no other religion is legally allowed? After the Holocaust, and partition, the Balfour Declaration was a dead letter. Anything the Brits and French touched with their imperialist claws eventually turned into a disaster, and one that pulled in other countries. The Suez crisis is a perfect example. The point: forget about that early 20th century stuff-it is no longer relevant.
5
@Michael S. Greenberg, Ph.D.
The State of Israel was born based on what you call "that early 20th century stuff". Agreements, UN resolutions, and international law are not "irrelevant".
3
The fault lines existed before 1967, and the article forgets it was Ben Gurion who approved the status quo - no bus service where it hadn't already existed, rabbinical control of marriage, divorce, and burials. The ultra orthodox may have some positions within the extensive chief rabbinate, but they are not in its control, period. As to the secular supporting the Hareidim, are you joking? Large families get some allowances for each child, but they vary in amounts, and in many cases, it's not more than several hundred dollars a month.
I understand the resentment to lack of army service, and the biggest impediment to that is much of the army's disdain of any committed religious conviction. The ultra secular, mostly Ashkenazi, have a niche controlling the army, don't want to lose that, and are terrified of the country moving to a majority Shomer Shabbos, which will occur, because the secular often do not marry, and many couples have but a few children, while even most modern religious nationalist families have at least 5 children; the ultra orthodox more.
Who is funding the Hareidim, many of whom live below the poverty line, as if that is enviable? Mega millions come from America, some from Europe, which fund not only the Yeshivos and Kollels for married man, but for individual families and the dozens of charity organizations that provide food, clothing, stipends before the major holidays.
7
If peace is on anyone's mind, then they need a different leader. Netanyahu is not going to be looking for peace; nor is he the kind of visionary leader that Israel needs now to find a way toward a peaceful future. But, yes, there is certainly a divide between the ultra - Orthodox and secular Jews there.
16
I think Israel has to become a more multinational/multicultural state to survive. Even if borders can be resolved, a third or more of the population will eventually be non-Jewish. The issue can be resolved without compromising the Jewish character and traditions of the State. It's happened elsewhere.
11
@Michael Livingston’s
Yeah, but in most of the world, especially the Muslim world, not so much for the Jews.
2
The deep commitment to traditional Judaism by Orthodox Jews --
without whose unwavering religious and moral compass Israel would just be another lost, destroyed country in the Middle East, if it existed at all --has in large measure served as the underpinning for Israel’s outstanding successes in the past 70 years.
I wouldn’t consider it too much of a compromise for them to serve in non-combatant roles in the military where they could continue to study and pray, somewhat similar to what we do here for conscientious objectors,
8
@A. Stanton
How about TAXES? What about all the other secular responsibilities involved in maintaining a State?
I am all for allowing freedom of religion, prayer and belief, nut NOT if it undermines the very integrity of the State which allows it! If Israel were ruled by Orthodox Jews, there would be no Israel - just a large number of bowling pins stacked up for slaughter by their hotel neighbors and much of the rest of the world. THAT, Mr. Stanton, is reality.
It was not the Orthodox who were the Jewish "terrorists" that blew up the King David Hotel and secured Israel's independence from GB. It is not the Orthodox who now defend Israel. Yes, the fact that they carry on their flavor of Judaism is fine, but not at the expense of the rest of the Jews and Arabs in Israel. They must actively participate in secular duties or loses their rights to govern.
38
The title of this piece is incredibly insulting and shows how little Americans - and American Jews - understand Israel. Secular Jews are as much Jews as the ultra-Orthodox. The Jews are a people, not a religion. Israel is not a “Jewish” state in the sense of being ruled by the Halacha (the Jewish religious law). It is the nation-state of the Jewish people. If you immigrate to Israel, you are asked about your ethnicity, not about your religious observance. Israel, of course, also has large minorities of Arabs (both Muslims and Christians), Armenians and other non-Jews, who are citizens with full rights.
63
@Mor
There are more than 30 laws within Israel which discriminate against non Jews.
How does a person convert to Judaism if Jews are a people rather than a religion? How is a child adopted into jewish family Jewish if hi/her mother was not Jewish?
33
@Mor Other than the fact that Arab Israelis represent 10% of the Knesset and about 21% of the population, do Arab towns and villages get the same funding for infrastructure and schooling, can Arabs bring in family members from abroad as readily as Jewish Israelis, can they live in the same communities and developments as their Jewish countrymen, can you answer yes, or is this business of full rights just a myth?
41
@Mor I don't see much difference between discrimination based on blood and creed, personally.
17
The conflicts described in this article reflect the fact that Israelis conceive of their Jewishness in different ways and many see those differing views as irreconcilable. It is true that there are different aspects to Jewish heritage. Jews started as a tribe. Then created a religion. The religion then produced a set of ethics to guide living in the secular world. But these three aspects of Jewish heritage need not conflict. In fact, they can be complementary, each enriching the others. For example, living a secular life guided by Jewish ethics can be more meaningful when combined with an experience of the spiritual and religious origins of those ethics. But Jews often lose sight of the value of one aspect or more aspects of their heritage because of the fervor with which they embrace other aspects. For example, religious fervor and tribalism can lead Jews to forget the central teaching of Jewish ethics: do not do to others what you would find offensive if done to you. When this happens, Jewish religion and nationhood become just another Golden Calf, with the same results as the original.
24
Many Americans have no idea what real religious fundamentalism is about. They rage against the religious right in this country but it is mild compared to what exists in many parts of the rest of the world.
19
@Chris Evangelicals are not mild...look at the havoc they have wreaked by supporting horrible leaders in the United States and Brazil. A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist, no matter the flavor...their extreme beliefs wreak havoc wherever they go.
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The ultra-orthodox in Israel have become like the Christian evangelicals here -- a mere lobbying group for their own narrow interests, no different than the Teamsters or the Chamber of Commerce. Both swaddle themselves in a cloak of piety while looking the other way at the immorality and the very serious criminal activities of the authoritarian leaders they have chosen to align with. What their hypocrisy accomplishes in exchange for short term, quotidien gains is the erosion, if not outright obliteration, of any moral authority they may have had which only widens and makes more toxic the secular-religious chasm.
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@Boris Jones
I agree with all that you've said and would add that there's an additional bit of (at least secular) impiety in both the article and the discussion:
To have a family size that is average - both for haredim in Israel and their "cousins" in the U.S. - KNOWING that for many of them, this is only "viable" by virtue of government handouts is ... unconscionable.
As with so much of their bizarre lifestyle - they take what probably was a poetically translated "be fruitful and multiply" and carry it to extremes that contravene both Jewish and common sense law.
Yes, the dispute some people just north of the city are having with a group more like Afghan terrorists than they are like most American Jews has gotten very ugly.
But it is not a canard to say that marriages among cousins in that community has resulted in a disproportionate number of special needs children. Obviously - well, it's obvious to the Yeshiva operators - they'll "outsource" the care of those children to "the goyim," because somehow their values put 1 "scholar" above 100 other and other-enabled children.
This is not consonant with Torah. It simply represents - as you suggest - a "we are chosen, you (others) are just there to make our lives as easy as possible."
Absolutely abhorrent! Juul had tried for a bit to put some distance between it and kids. Too bad, it takes a complex election in Israel for a 10% minority to be thumped back down to "normal citizenry!" (If we're lucky!)
6
It often happens that the oppressor unwittingly ends up limiting his own freedom. So, for example, an Israeli Jew is not free to marry an Israeli Arab.
In this, as in many things, Israel is on the wrong side of history; in the not too distant future we will all accept, as a universal principle, that civil and political rights should never be dependent on ethnicity or religion.
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I am an American of secular Jewish family background. Like many secular, and social-justice-minded, Jews who fled Europe as fascism loomed, my parents supported the establishment of the state of Israel, although I don't think they were aware of the toll this took on the centuries-old Arab dwellers in that land. Israel was born out of the horror and displacement of the Nazi holocaust. It was founded out of idealism. The Declaration of Independence declares that it "will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on free bydom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."
That declaration has been ignored for years and never more so than now. What has taken its place is a toxic brew. It raises the question of whether a "Jewish state" is no longer a positive and democratic possibility, for Jews or any other resident of that land. It is entirely proper, and just, for American Jews, whose tax money plays a big role in Israel's economy, to speak up on these issues.
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For ALL Americans who’s tax money has been poured into Israel since its inception.
What wonderful and deeply needed social services the U.S. would enjoy without the Israeli drain?
10
Just because you are a citizen of Israel does not make you a zionist. I have found more extreme positions amongst all the many factions of jewish people in Israel facinating. They in a sense are creating their own "ghettos" where there is no acceptance of any other thought than thjeir own. All others are driven out. And not very nicely either. I look at Israel as a jewish state, but NOT a secular theocracy. Eventually voters will shift these balances and it will move to a more moderate situation. The orthodox and ultra-orthodox can simply not have enough babies to keep forcing their ways upon others. And eventually non-secular jews will say enough is enough, we will not support your lifestyle anymore nor the priviledges the orthodox have come to expect.
8
What exactly is a secular jew? It is a religion, a set of beliefs- not a racial or ethnic group. You are a believer or are not.
If you do not believe that particular set of stories then why be defined by an accident of birth?
How can you rationally base laws on such nonsensical definitions?
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@pontormo2 According to Jewish law, yes, it's an ethnic group. You're Jewish if your mother was Jewish, regardless of the degree you practice the faith.
The best definition of a secular Jew has to be my grandfather, who celebrated Passover by ordering his ham & cheese sandwiches on matzoh.
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@pontormo2
Right. So a Jewish state is a theocracy by definition.
2
@pontormo2 Regardless of how stringently I follow or don't follow the religious precepts of Judaism, I will always be "a Jew" to others. Being Jewish is a cultural identity as much as it is a religious identity, and my surname, Rosenberg, marks me as a Jew no matter how religious or secular my behavior might be.
Regardless of how little I practice the religion of my ancestors, the "fine people" that President BabyHands likes so much would still see me the same as the ultra-Orthodox, and would treat me with the same level of persecution if they thought they could get away with it.
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If Israel is a religious state, then why is America supporting it? Give me worldwide freedom from religion ... religion is the most evil manifestation humans have ever come up with, it keeps us separated and focused on imagined heavenly rewards and not the quality actual lives we need to live and survive.
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@tourmakeady - actually, Judaism isn't primarily focused on rewards after death, but on righteous behavior in the present world - "quality actual lives" as you say. Although as the article makes clear, among Jews there are lots of opinions about what that means.
5
I notice the article doesn't even mention the 18% of Israelis who are Moslem, or the 2% who are Christian. Aren't they relevant to this discussion as well?
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@Scott Nance
Do they have equal rights?
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@Scott Nance The same reason that the Times will have articles discussing Democratic contenders to Trump without discussing Libertarian/Green/etc. Yes they are part of the picture. But not the major fault line that the election is hinging on.
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@me
Yes -- to the same extent as secular Jews. But the point of this article is that the ultra-orthodox minority is setting unrealistic requirements for all -- secular Jews, Moslems, and Christians as a group.
There are Moslems in the Knesset. A fraction of that body is reserved for them -- at least one of which uses that forum to condemn Israel's very existence, and yet he is still a member!
6
Even Iran has non ethnic Iranians (Shia Muslims) living there and once upon a time it was a haven for people from other places with other religious roots, Armenians, for example.
A mono-religious or mono-ethnic country does not sound like a very interesting place to live in.
Why bother to say more?
PS To save comment writers who know very little about Sweden I will save you the trouble of writing your usual replies. Linköping SE is far more ethnically and religiously diverse "up-front" than any place I ever lived in in my USA. Up front meaning when I am downtown or waiting there for one of my buses.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
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@Larry Lundgren
Mono-ethnic is not necessarily synonymous with restrictive views.
Iceland is one of the most mono-ethnic of countries yet it is also one of the most progressive as far allowing individuals to choose how they wished to live their lives.
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My sense (and observation) is that the Swedes and other Europeans aren’t that thrilled with “multikulti.”
Correct me if I’m wrong.
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@Larry Lundgren
I agree. And most Israelis agree. Perhaps you aren't aware that Israel's population is 20% Arab/Muslim. That is Israel, excluding the West Bank/Gaza.
5
Exceptionalism within exceptionalism.
Israel is getting into a caste-type system. There is the ultra-orthodox caste, the Jewish citizen caste, and the non-Jewish "untouchables" (Palestinians) caste.
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@Greg
Great that a Frenchman can play with English words.
BUT terribly unfortunate in that France has a record since 1940, say, that is almost as vile as the vilest of moments in Israel's history.
France practiced colonialism for 200 years. Yes, it is sad that Israel is using its (and GB's, to be sure) playbook when all but the most provocative and marginal historians have come to view colonialism is little better (if at all) than slavery.
There's no point in identifying a dozen ways "castes" are altogether dis-similar from discrimination. Rest assured - and this from a Jew with ZERO sympathy for the haredim - that just as Netanyahu would (figuratively, but just barely) sell his mother to stay in power ... and has truly made a deal with the devil in a handful of important ways involving governance, security, equity, etc.
there is NOTHING in the Torah or any other body of law or belief that justifies things like annexation of conquered territory. Everything Netanyahu has ever done is rooted in his personal ambition and a sense of entitlement - both personal and as head of the Israeli state.
4
@pfusco - don't use Greg's location in France as an opportunity to launch an irrelevant attack against him.
6
I remember, as a young gentile boy, my parents taking me to a celebration of the creation of Israel.
At age 7, I waved my little Israeli flag with everyone else in the Chicago Stadium.
I remember too the time when young American Jews took it as a point of pride to travel to Israel to work on a Kibbutz as a sign of solidarity with all Jews and Israel.
They were willing to do he physical work in the fields.
There was nothing abstract about their dedication.
I ask myself today, in view of all of the Israeli factions, where one can find that inspiring true sense of Jewish solidarity?
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@Meta1 They can go to a synagogue. The state of of Israel is the definition of a tyranny. Pretty sure Palestinians would be happy to do "physical work in the fields"...if they were not persecuted by Israel and allowed into the county.
4
@Nadia
Nadia, your bias is showing. I've been to Israel and I saw Muslims everywhere, practicing their religion, selling their wares, socializing with friends, visiting cultural spots. I saw Ultra-Orthodox, conservative, and reform Jews, and I saw secular Israelis of all stripes on the streets, in the museums, and on the the beaches.
It is not a tyranny.
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@Meta1
Workers are now imported from Thailand to work in the fields and as maids. They are not given citizenship.
2
I spent six months living in Israel after graduating college, most of my time spent on a kibbutz in the Negev desert. After traveling the entire country, I was struck at how small it is and how easily an enemy could invade and over run it. "Being driven into the sea" isn't an abstract concept to Israelis. American Jews like me can have our opinions, but Israelis have to decide for themselves who they want running their country. Giving aid does not give us the right to tell other countries how to govern themselves.
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@Richard R
Well, I think history shows that an even more vulnerable entity is the Palestinian state and a contiguous Palestinian society. It has already been invaded and occupied by an Israeli state that is well past being at a proto-Jewish Caliphate stage.
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@Richard R Once you ask me for $, you give me a right to comment on how it is spent.
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@Alex in SoFl There has never been such a thing as a "Palestinian State". Ever, in the entirety of human history. In fact, the word "Palestine" was literally created by the Romans in 136 AD, when they changed the name of the province of Judea to "Syria Palaestina" in an effort to sever the connection between the Jewish people and their ancestral homeland, before scattering the Jews to every corner of the known world.
If you're forced from your home at gunpoint, and then you return to it years later to find that squatters have taken up residence, is it not still your home?
5
Interesting articvle....could not help but notice that in the photo with the caption. "Students from an ultra-Orthodox school in the settlement of Maale Adumim attended a protest against a visit by Mr. Lieberman," there are no female students.
Is this what protecting Shabbat looks like??
Similarly, in the US, Ulta-Orhodox Jewish women have been taking action about the lack of any MEANINGFUL education they have received.
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@RichardM
There is strict separation of the sexes among the ultra orthodox, hence the lack of girls/females in that protest picture. Also, ultra-orthodox girls receive a far superior secular education than do the boys, though still inferior to what you'd be taught in any proper school. The boys truly suffer, education-wise, in this system.
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Ironically the girls get a better education than the boys, because the boys learn almost entirely religious subjects. Many boys in ultra-orthodox communities graduate barely literate in English (in the US) and certainly ignorant of history, literature, etc. Girls may not receive an education you or I would be proud of, but they typically have basic skills with computers, reading and writing, and a general knowledge far exceeding their male peers.
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@Bill
If so, why are there metal detectors at the entrances of secular schools in Israel, but not religious schools?
... as much as it takes to put a veneer of an excuse that makes Americans look good while kicking out the Palestinians. Tres simple.
12
It is for them to decide and hopefully without Russian interference.
2
I hate to say what this sounds like but it is not a time in history that anyone would want to remember.
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