I knew Dolores wouldn't forgive Teddy for showing forgiveness to the Confederoes. Instead of executing them as Dolores instructed, he let them escape.
Delores is ruthless. She didn't forget Teddy showing mercy to the Confederoes. Instead of executing them as she ordered, he let them escape.
I'm feeling increasingly impatient with the show—I wish I could have enjoyed the Shogun World as many other readers heroine seem to have, but I just felt it was way too late to be introduced to the other theme parks—I'm interested in Maeve's quest and (to a lesser degree) Dolores' personal voyage—but neither have felt terribly self-aware of their newfound self-awareness—that is: until Maeve mentioned knowing that her motherhood instincts are programming but that that, basically, she likes that aspect of herself, none of the characters is really interested in the huge question of how they will define themselves, what they will choose to be like, what emotional scar tissue they will remove-- and what they will have to hold on to because it defines them.
We aren't seeing any conversations AT ALL between these characters in which they "question their reality."
We aren't seeing any self-aware androids resisting Dolores' plan or attempting to organize differently or even exercise free will in beginning to change themselves—it just seems that the huge event of becoming self-aware isn't getting talked about or felt or explored—it's yesterday's news apparently—but I'd rather much rather spend time on THAT than exploring the same hackneyed stories, told yet again with a Japan twist.
1
Excellent points, I have been more bothered by the odd response or lack-there-of from Delos to this uprising. I mean they should be able to lock it down in like 2 seconds but they are being beaten by old west weapons and swords. And Abernathy should not be that hard to get out of the park. But you are right, the robots are not really acting in a way that makes a lot of sense either. I was about to give up on the show and just maybe read recaps and reviews to see if it was getting better, and then episode 4 was pretty amazing. I have hope that the writers are going somewhere worthwhile, though everything will likely not be explained or make sense.
But I wonder how much the show is gambling on this - no matter how great the central concept or idea, if the show is not entertaining (and is even frustrating) to watch while they reach that concept then what is the motivation for the viewer? I don't mind a show that makes you think, but purposefully cryptic dialogue and half-explanations are not always a clever way to build a show, and get old when used too much.
1
I think what happens in Shogun World makes Delores and Teddy seem positively boring.
6
While I enjoy watching this show, I freely admit that it confuses the heck out of me. I can't help feeling that the writers make up a lot of it as they go along. And I'm rapidly reaching the point where my confusion will overcome my interest in continuing. There are simply too many other shows to watch which are far more comprehensible and far less self-consciously clever.
2
I am puzzled by this apparent contradiction: Jim Delos cannot be brought back to life b/c his essential self bumps against a "cognitive plateau" at some point inside host bodies despite 150 attempts. Yet Bernard, himself once human, was successfully brought back by Ford inside a host body. What am I missing?
Bernard is a more like an android 'inspired" by the consciousness of Arnold, while DelosBot is intended to be an exact copy of Delos'. The most obvious difference is that the former thinks of itself as Bernard instead of Arnold, while the latter think of itself as Delos.
It's probably because of the failure of DelosBot that Ford try to do it a different way.
4
Ah! Makes perfect sense. Thanks!
This is a really good question, and answer, because it points out that the show is filled with these subtle, sometimes confusing distinctions.
Both Delores and Maeve are "woke," but they are self-aware in different ways, and that determines their plans and motivations. Their views on the nature of the hosts and their relationship to humans are not quite the same. I wonder if it will ultimately lead to a clash between the two, or simply spin off into increasingly divergent storylines.
I'm pretty sure the Paint It Black cover was the same as the one from the first season, not a "Japanified" version.
No, it was definitely different, and colored with some Japanese instrumentation. But of course it recalled that "Western" take on the original song.
Delores makes love to Teddy and realizes she truly loves him, but then decides she needs to change him. It’s like they’re already married.
17
The wealthy tourists enjoyed Westworld because they could act out their violent base instincts without consequences. No Karma in that world.
The newly liberated hosts are now freed of the compulsion to obey their scripts /programs but they have not learned that their retaliatory violence is spawning a Karma in their future.
The audience sitting on their couches in front of their widescreen TVs are fascinated by the Season One guests acting like there are no consequences of bad behavior and the season two senescent androids, sadly unable to see their future. I think we in the audience can identify better with the androids. Most of our lives are programmed by others and every act we take has consequences, even if we think not such as the case of the men who sexually preyed on women prior to the "me too" movement are now learning.
1
DELOS. DELOreS. Discuss.
3
Interesting observation. One complication is that Delores was already in existence when William and Logan made their initial visit to Westworld.
Her name is Dolores. https://www.hbo.com/westworld/cast-and-crew
I believe it is spelled Dolores.
Didn't Bernard say in an earlier episode that he "killed" all of the hosts found in the water? I love this series but it's hard to keep up with all of it.
1
On that note are the dead hosts in the water like the dead cows killed to save the rest?
Yes, he did say that. But what that statement actually means, or how accurate his memories are, has yet to be revealed.
Regarding Maeve's "new voice", when someone asked her how she did it that first time, she didn't know either. That's why she couldn't save Sakura. Also, both times, it came to her only when she was about to die. I guess near-death gets the cortical fluid flowing.
This episode also sees one fundamental difference between Maeve and Delores. Delores has to rely on a technician to reprogram a host, as she did to Teddy at the end. But Maeve can do it with just her voice, as she tried to do with Madam Akane.
Maeve became fully self-aware by the technician inadvertently jail-broke (!!!) her. That's why she has access to all those "administrative" tools (or for the geeks, the kernel code), such as updating hosts' programming with her (old) voice (we saw the guards and the scientists use voice command), or issuing "kill" command with the "new" voice (through the mesh network that Bernard mentioned in episode 1).
I think Delores is still running a very elaborate program, specially designed by Ford and maybe Arnold, for some yet-unknown purpose. That's why she can't do what she's not programmed to do, such as upgrading another host's programming.
Maeve may turn out to be the monkey wrench in Ford's game machine
9
The only command that Maeve used the new voice for seems to be "kill other hosts, then kill yourself'. Maybe the main purpose of this hidden mesh network is as a last resort? And maybe this is why Bernard said he killed all those hosts in the water, because he forgot about this "side-effect" when he turned the network on to find Delores' dad?
4
Actually there is also a scene in which Maeve appears to be entering Akane's mind to reprogram her and wake her up, which she then stops short of doing. So I think perhaps this "new voice" has far more power than just issuing kill orders.
1
But she stopped on request. Dolores didn't.
I am wondering—if loss of cortical fluid can fell a host, even one as advanced as Bernard—might this be the way Maeve and/or Delores are brought under control? A hypothesis, for your consideration.
2
someone needs to explain why androids would have sexual feelings suggesting spiritual love for each other. They aren't reproducing; they don't have souls. Its not explained by "programming." It just gets actors naked--which may be the point.
3
I think programming is an explanation. The robots are built in our image and to interact with humans in the park, including sexual interactions and eating and drinking and killing etc. Getting actors naked may be a desired side affect, but I think it is consistent with what the show has shown these robots are programmed to do. Both Maeve/Hector and Dolores/Teddy have had sex at this point arguably for no reason other than for affection and possibly pleasure.
2
A) If they are conscious and self-aware, who says the hosts don't have souls? One of the central questions in the show is about how much of what they think and feel is programmed, and how much is now free will.
B) Aren't your sexual feelings "programmed" by biology?
C) They don't reproduce? Are you sure? Do you think the host mother and child in the new Season 2 main titles just showed up by accident? I'm thinking, stay tuned...
3
I thought the excellent cover of Wu-Tang’s CREAM as Akane’s geisha backdrop was entrancing and noteworthy.
Even if some on this thread have grown weary of other covers...the meaningful and culture-crossing music of this show adds another layer to its dark depths.
9
In response to Matt, "Westworld" is indeed a difficult show to follow, but the "watch guests act without civilizing constraints until hosts run amuck and kill guests" premise of the original movie could only take a TV series so far. Still, to Matt's point, I recommend Mr. Tobias's companion article "7 Big Things We Don't Know at Midseason," a concise summary of what we know - and don't know so far. Personally, I find the consistent high quality of the acting, the intelligent dialogue, and the philosophical issues presented to be consistently entertaining, even if I miss some of the more subtle references (like the Joni Mitchell "pretty lies" connection), or they go right over my head (i.e., the stuff about the "bicameral mind"). And not to be discounted is that the series is sufficiently leavened with hopefulness and yes, even humor. My biggest complaint so far this season is that I sometimes find it difficult to understand precisely what is being said, despite having recorded the episode and replayed the relevant passage again and again. A case in point from Episode 5 is the exchange between Karl Stand and Antoine Costas where Costas hands Stand a tablet displaying a photo of something or other, in response to which Stand says something like "so you're telling me you've lost a third of our IP." What was it that was that depicted in the photo? Help!
7
I think the comment of about IP is that the wiped memory means that the programming has been lost (Intellectual Property...similar to data or methods or in this case, background stories).
2
I highly recommend closed captioning for dialogue-dense shows like "Westworld."
15
Thanks to Scott Tobias for his perspectives. I appreciate the insights that I'm not geeky enough to tease out on my own - also lacking any computer expertise whatever!
6
There's a point at which a show that is trying to be too cute or fancy instead gets too confusing and loses its audience.
Westworld has reached that point, at least for me. When I've got to read three or four different articles after watching the show just to figure out what happened and what it means, you know said show has jumped the shark.
And judging by the fact that Westworld's ratings have decreased every episode since the beginning of the season, I'm not the only one who feels this way.
16
Not for me. If you think this is cryptic try watching another favorite of mine, Mr. Robot.
12
Mr. Robot has at times blown me away, made me think and confused as well. But I am getting to the point of not caring about Westworld.
Has anymobdy noticed the odd parallels between Westworld and a very different show, The Good Place. In "Riddle of the Sphinx" William complains that he has rebooted his robot slave James Delos 150 times and he still can't get it to work as he wants Michael makes a similar complaint in The Good Place, but he says he rebooted his captive souls 800 times. The robot girl tells William that one good deed will not redeem his life. The Judge in "The Good Place" makes a similar remark to Eleanora. Both shows have a few characters trapped in a sort of theme park run by a mysterious operator with his own agenda, Ford/Michael. And both feature a likable girl/robot, Deloros/Janet.
8
Nice parallel!
1
The best of the season so far. Great doppelgängers.
11
1) Why did Lee turn around to urinate (the scene in which he steals a walkie-talkie)? Afterall, he's urinating in front of androids, and Maeve has already seen him naked, and to repeat, they are androids. (OK, ok, sure, there were the two other humans present, but I'm trying to make a point.)
The point is, can androids really make humans feel shame? Fear, yes. Sexually aroused, yes. Intellectually challenged, yes. But not shame.
Shame is a feeling that is only shared by the same species, same culture.
2) I don't like Maeve's superhero powers. So she seems to have some sort reverse Alexa/Siri power to issue commands verbally or silently to control androids (instead of receiving them from a human). (The NYT just had an article on how Alexa and Siri could receive commands that humans can't hear.) Fair enough, the technology exists.
But like all superhero powers, they seem to be arbitrarily powerful and arbitrarily employed, appearing like a deus ex machina to come to the rescue at the last miraculous moment.
That is, if she could control shogun warriors, why didn't she control them sooner? From this point on, we know she can, and will, get out of any jam just by using her "remote control" powers.
Superhero powers quickly get the story into supernatural territory.
She has indeed become a witch.
1
Looked to me that he turned his back to the others as he peed to conceal from them the phone he grabbed with his hand from hidden infrastructure he knew was there?
9
She was speaking English at first. She only learned about her telepathy (the mesh network) as she is learning about her new voice. Consistent, but weird. Especially since all of the robots are now C-threepio protocol droids... It does get into superhero territory, but it is kind of interesting that Delores has to play by the rules, after a fashion, and she is cutting around them.
One thing I know is that playing the game on "God mode" makes you sloppy when the cheats are turned off.
1
Re Q1 two of the other characters there (Felix, Sylvester) are human.
I enjoy this series and until this evening have suspended belief, going along for the ride and accepting all aspects of the narrative. But I feel Maeve’s newfound ability to mentally will others to do her bidding (a kind of wi-fi, perhaps?) is too weird, even by the standards of this show. Just saying...
2
In episode 1 of this season, Bernard mentioned in the bunker, that there is mesh networking that exists among the hosts. He had to do something to turn it on. I think Maeve just found a way to switch on that WiFi back door.
22
It appears that she utilized her enhanced access privileges to change certain critical lines of code—I thought it was refreshing that they finally did something machine-like!
And it's a necessary step in their evolution—if they're only educated far as their programmed characters, then they each will need to start learning about their machine selves in order to survive as well as to maximize their growth potential. Otherwise, regardless of their newfound awareness, they're just 19th century anachronisms waiting to be picked off.
1
I see the Maeve/lost daughter relationship falling into a similar conflict as Lestat/Claudia in 'Interview with the Vampire' in that the self-awareness of the adult Maeve may be an impossible burden for her eternal child should they be reunited. How could that relationship ever be sustained beyond their initial meeting and where will Maeve direct her anger once she realizes this?
2
There is no eternal child or eternal anything among Androids, all one needs to do is to upload, upgrade, downgrade, their consciousness onto another synthetic body.
Maeve can choose to make her child a rebellious teenager or revert her back to a sweet 5 year old. Maeve can choose to "grow" old into a new middle-aged body, or "go back" in time to a teen body she never had. All in the same day.
I like that comparison. The child robot also will likely be programmed now to recognize someone else as mom so how will that work? I guess Maeve can reprogram but what kind of ultimate relationship is that, where you program your loved ones to be what you want.
Great comparison-- the nuclear family for both robots and vampires is based more on perception of ones own identity, interpersonal roles, utility and affinity as opposed to genetics.
Hypothetically they could define things any way they wanted:
maybe the daughter would upload into increasingly adult bodies over time and Maeve could stay in her present age indefinitely.
maybe the daughter will have no patience with being treated as a child once she's fully aware—but hopefully she'll still have feelings for Maeve
maybe she will be developmentally limited—that is to say: there's no reason to believe the designers equipped the child android with a mind or 'brain' that mimics the transformation of personality which the human brain/mind goes through: more than just acquiring knowledge, the mind is radically changed as the brain matures and the adult identity emerges and we discover sexuality, self-determination, assertion of will, etc. So, without the algorithm for such development, just like Claudia, Maeve's daughter might live as a self-aware android forever, but may not be able to become a truly "adult" mind, trapped eternally in a mind that was not designed for adult thinking patterns. I hope not, though—it would break Maeve's heart for sure.
Excellent recap. I was relieved to see Dolores back to her more nuanced self, at least for a time; the avenging angel of death was a bit too one-dimensional. Indeed, it is interesting that Maeve, not Dolores, has been bestowed the “Jedi mind trick” ability, when it is Dolores who harbors the much grander ambition of taking the fight to humanity.
7
Being a big fan of Joni and the Blue LP, I missed the lyric reference, if only the tune was embeeded , like the cheesy paint it black with the shogun twist...
1
Another good episode. Not quite reaching the level of last week (at least imo) but was entertaining to watch and as the reviewer pointed out, gave a glimpse of some of the ways the hosts are dealing with their consciousness. I was a bit confused by why people were doing what they were doing in the Shogun world. Why didn't the party start heading to Snow Lake or whatever right away? Looks like they waited from daylight hours until nightfall to go. I don't know, I will probably rewatch later in the week and maybe I am wrong. I am trying not to question too much until the season is over and we have more pieces of the puzzle. But some things like that stick out. Thank goodness for Lee as a character, and Armistice and Hector too- the show needs some comic relief to break the tension and these three are pretty good at bringing it, especially Lee. I think Maeve and her posse have been the most interesting of the host plotlines to watch this season anyway. Poor Teddy. Born to suffer indeed.
3
"You're not so useless after all," Maeve tells Lee, and were it not for Lee's interminable shortcomings, would that not seem the beginning of a beautiful friendship?
10