Exhausting and ridiculous: people who can't get enough attention....and who are constantly trying to conjure up new and unusual ways to grab it.
86
Phew! I felt really dumb until I read the comments from other readers. I didn't understand the purpose of this article nor the attitude of this couple. I also agree that when the Times publishes things like this, it just feeds the Trump base. However, my takeaway is that this couple does love their child. I'm just surprised that they named their son such a gender specific name.
55
Mother is such an important psychological and emotional part of our consciousness. Father is such an important psychological and emotional part of our consciousness. Changing these important names and the concepts underlying them cannot be of any benefit to their innocent child. It seems that the result of this will stunt the development and sense of safety of their child. Maybe their child will seem well adjusted but there will be a hole in his heart where he wishes that he had a mother and a father in every sense of the word.
32
Oh please, enough! They pass as a straight couple because they are!
164
Further proof of the silliness and irrelavancy of this movement. Because some people can't adjust to their birth gender, you have to impose that on others and label those who disagree as transphobic. Actually, it is transgender people who perpetuate gender stereotypes.
65
There are a lot of human attempts to complicate basic human constructs when it comes to things like this and sexuality--also transgender people right now. A lot of it is coming up with new names or labels.
I think these are temporary aberrations that won't last long.
New labels on things doesn't fix the problem, if there is one in the first place. You have to directly address the problem, not what it's called.
"Keep it simple" is always the best advice.
63
For some people, fitting into rigid and traditional expectations/rules of what society deems a "man" or "woman" is complicated. Better to just be free.
1
Why not work on changing expectations? The fact that I excel at math and logic, hate pink, didn't play with dolls, and work for a paycheck while my husband tends the house doesn't make me any less female.
10
I think I'm pretty open minded. I have friends across the ethnic and gender continuum, but the made-up pronouns and the expectation that others remember them all lest they be criticized as insensitive. Now layering it on children...It just strikes me as incredibly entitled. You're not preaching to the choir; you're alienating the choir!
499
Oh lord, this was an eye-roller. What is with the NYT highlighting these supposedly queer couples that are actually just repackaged heterosexuals? I'm a lesbian in her late 30s, and I just can't get down with this queer-ity. Was there some committee meeting I missed where the LGBT community decided to make queer a catch-all for the leftovers? What exactly qualifies you as a "queer"? Have you endured a lifelong struggle or constant derision for something you can't change about yourself? Or did you just decide "I'm arty, I'm weird, and I don't fit in, so I must be...queer!" And please, if you're a biologically male/female couple and you decide to commit the ultimate in heterosexuality, marrying and having a baby, don't insult the LGBT community by tacking on your faux hip queer label and peddling it all over the internet. It's nauseating.
326
:) Thank you :) I also missed that meeting that added Q to the list.
41
Since my reply yesterday didn't get posted, I'll reply again. Since an important premise behind the entire gay rights movement is that some people's feeling of disgust with gays has no validity--as seems quite right--why does your being nauseated with what these people are doing or saying have any standing? Why is this about you or the "LGBT community"? Why must these people conform to, or follow the linguistic strictures of, whatever that community is? I thought the whole point of the gay rights movement was that people don't have to conform.
3
I think the point of the gay rights movement was exactly the opposite: to conform, to be treated likr anyone else in society. There are so many gay people: it is hardly nonconforming.
8
Our country is multicultural in so many ways - race, ethnicity, faith, class, and gender - that it is beyond me that anyone with any grasp of reality would put too much energy into insisting that a baby has just a Mommy and a Daddy.
Anyone who has filled out an emergency contact form for a schoolchild or worked within the human service arena in the past 25+ years knows that one asks for "guardian" or "caregiver" information, bypassing any assumption of two-parent / mother + father convention.
A child who is loved, protected, and taught to be kind is having zir needs met. Little Felix is a cutie with two adults to depend upon -- that's a better start than many youngsters have.
47
I am just so happy that I am old enough that I am running out of the forest and not into it. The forest is getting way too dense. Under the guise of just wanting to be accepted, every fringe group seems to want to divide and subdivide so as to make someone (like me) feel like they're walking through a landmine avoiding the perpetually offended. To try to understand and remember every individuals preferences for name, pronoun, 3-4 hyphenated gender identity is just silly. I live and let live. Everyone has the right to not be abused or limited by whatever you think you are, but that does not mean you have the right to be accepted for every category you choose to declare yourself as.
291
Is it really silly to respect someone you know personally or professionally with the pronouns that they ask for? I know it’s not a request you’re used to, but it’s pretty similar to calling a non-trans person you know a name that they hate (and actively bothers them) and saying it’s “too hard” to say anything else, so it’s very very rude. Even moreso with trans people because you’re explicitly rejecting their identity without even hearing them out or giving them the basic respect that they might need to be nice and explain themselves to you in the first place.
You make it sound like the mere existence of this article or others about transgender people (and the existence of transgender people themselves!) is like homework, and you won’t pass unless you memorize a gender chart. And this is an excuse not to EVER care. Look, if you don’t want to know pronouns or trans people, you don’t have to. Just don’t disrespect the few trans people you may meet and you’ll do fine, all you have to do is ask them what they prefer to be called if you’re unsure, and they’ll tell you. Minimal memorization and thinking required! Maybe just a little practice.
And since you would know them personally you probably wouldn’t be so dismissive of them as you are in this comment anyways, I imagine.
-A Trans Women
11
I believe in the right to define yourself however you identify. With that said––and maybe this is only because I’m an editor ––I don't know how to overcome the singular/plural confusion of the singular "they.” Using “they” clearly in reference to a single person, at least whenever that person is in any way among others, is enormously challenging. Take a sample from this piece:
"Mx. Schankler . . . remembers thinking that 'dad' or 'daddy' wouldn't work for them either, so they opted for 'Abba.' It . . . provide[es] a link to their Jewish heritage."
From context, I assume the passage refers solely to Mx. Schankler's thoughts, choice, and heritage. But what if the opting was actually a collaborative choice, both Mx. Schankler and Davidson are of Jewish heritage, or both? Using Mx. Schankler’s chosen pronouns means there is no way to know for sure which scenario is accurate as written. Spoken situations offer even greater chance for confusion.
Self-identification and autonomy are important, but taking words that have always been plural and deciding, in your case, they are singular is problematic. I’ll continue doing my best to respect choices, but the singular “they” is ineffective and ripe for confusion, even among those with good intentions. Grammatical realities regarding singular and plural, which are not societal constructs or heteronormative or part of the patriarchy or anything else along those lines, seem to be collateral damage in this situation.
34
Here's a piece of news: if you have two X chromosomes you are the woman, ie the mother; and if you have XY you are the man, ie the father. I feel sorry for those poor kids.
109
The words that we use to describe relationship status carry the baggage of past social assumptions. "Husband and Wife", "Mr. and Mrs." "Master and Miss", imply sexual orientation, gender identity, authority and submission. The evolving acceptance of unions that do not fit these historic descriptors has not yet led to satisfactory new terms, but we should keep trying. "Husband and Husband, Wife and Wife" are the commonly used for same sex couples, but are awkwardly echo the historic roles the words embody. "Housewife" and "Househusband" both confer a subservient, lesser status. Ms. works very well for most females , but what title for the males? What for transgender, cisgender, ambiguous? When I refer to my mate, people think I'm Gay if I say "Partner", so I try to refer to her as my "Spouse". Solutions have yet to be found, but language is alive and it will evolve to describe our rich diversity more clearly and more fairly. In the meantime, my Pediatric office has registered childrens' parents as "Parent1" and "Parent 2" for almost two decades and no family has ever questioned or objected to this neutral usage. even that simple language may be viewed as burdensome by our single parents, male, female, gay or straight.
3
I don't think my husband calling me his wife is "baggage". Geez.
27
"Ms. works very well for most females , but what title for the males?"
Huh? Ms. was created as an analog to Mr., an "honorific" that does not connote marital status.
8
Not everybody has to think like you. Jeez.
2
I'm sorry, New York Times. But mine is going to be a troubled, discordant voice.
In some utterly mysterious way, we human beings--we're WIRED to respond to mothers and fathers. NOT weird amalgams and hybrids like "Mather" and "Muzzie." No sir (and sorry for the sexist, patriarchal overtones of "sir"). Mother and father. Nothing more. Nothing less.
We twenty first century Americans! Must be in our blood--some DNA acquired during the Revolutionary War. We have resolved--we gonna be what we WANNA be. We have that prerogative. Give liberty! or give us--well, YOU know.
All you liberals!--and you better start setting up a stake and piling up wood 'cause I'm about to utter some heresies.
In so many ways, I AM a fellow liberal.
But not THIS way.
A marriage is between a man and a woman.
The man becomes a FATHER. The woman becomes a MOTHER.
In this way--in virtually every country, every culture known to man. . ..
. .. the human race has propagated itself.
But (apparently) we've all decided, "These are mere relics of unenlightened, backwater days. We've gotten BEYOND all that now. We are so much WISER, so much more DISCERNING than our benighted forebears."
Are we?
I have my doubts. Grave doubts. Very grave!
No, New York Times. For my part, I thank the Lord I had a mother and a father. A man and a woman I called Dad and Mom.
Right now, we have two children. They call US--the same. They really do.
Thank the Lord.
83
That argument always fails, because plenty of heterosexuals marry without any ability or intention of ever conceiving. There is no shortage of heterosexual marriages that intend to bring babies into this world,,,,so why do you care if gay people marry and choose to form their families. It doesn't hurt anyone, and it greatly helps our society by promoting family units and stability.
17
Please don't assume that all liberals are 100 percent in agreement about things--a good thing for one and all to keep in mind in addressing conservatives, too. You note that you are a fellow liberal in many ways--I am, too. This doesn't mean I agree with everything a 'stereotyped' liberal is said to believe or think. Personally I think the couple profiled here are highly annoying, and not because of their identification or anything. I'm just...perplexed at what seems to be self-absorption to me.
37
Susan Firzwater has the best comment here.
3
As long as they really love the kid, what the kid calls them doesn't matter. But if Baby X is the only child in his/her/s-he/they's/whatever-pronoun's class with parents not going by Mommy and Daddy, then I suspect Baby X will grow up to love Very Traditional Notions of Gender.
My generation knows so many people working for American Express and burning up Wall Street just because Mom and Dad were rootless hippies who hated "the Establishment."
http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
40
Here's what I love about being a parent: You find out that the coolest thing in your own personal world really is NOT all that unique. That you are just like billions of other people -- from faraway lands and long-gone times.
Isn't it amazing that literally billions of people on this planet have experienced the intense, amazing, lay-down-your-life-for-someone-love you can ever know?
The reality is that "Mama" and "Abba" (and "Baba," the birther who goes by the Arabic word for Daddy - whatevs!) really are NOT all that special.
What would the world be like if our best energy was spent thinking about what binds us...
59
It’s interesting to read this in combination with the recent article on the lengths modern (straight!) grandparents will go to avoid “traditional” titles like grandma and grandpa, inventing ever sillier “unique” alternatives. Maybe I’d be viewing the queer parents article differently if not for the grandparent one... but it all seems like one big unnecessary show of narcissism and superficiality. Like the whole identity thing has gone just a bit too far, and a bit too aggressive towards the “ordinary”.
If you want to be unique, that’s fine, but at least allow for contextual flexibility. You can’t expect everybody to know and remember all the alternatives. There are just too many, with new ones being made up all the time. Take a suggestion from us dual identity folks. My kids and I are bilingual. We speak my native language to each other, and English with the rest of society. They call me my native language’s word for “mother” to my face, but refer to me as their “mom”, in English, to their friends and others in society. Nobody else needs to remember my preferred title - it’s a private preference meant for my special relationship with my kids, and that’s enough for me. I know it’s different when you want that identity to carry over into society as well, but at the same time, we’ve gotta be realistic about it and not assume malice when people fail to stop and ask every new parent holding a baby at the hospital for all their preferred titles.
111
Maybe they should go with Lola?
Their child will need a touchstone of consistency - a safe place that is the exception to the mixed up world, the shook up world this little person's parents parents have created with their extraordinary, and very predictable, commitment to identity nonconformity.
19
Okie dokie.
Who cares.
Why do you have such articles if for no reason than to open up judgement and sell ads?
Let's stop judging each other for all of this trivial stuff.
51
What does this hetero couple have to do with the lesbian and gay parents discussed in the referenced study? This article is a tad incoherent.
99
Trump LOVES these people. They and articles like these, will help his re-election.
76
NOPE. Gay men and lesbians have been freezing these tourists out of #LGB spaces since forever.
44
I’m glad that I’m an English speaker - I can’t imagine the daily affront to LGBTQ values that would occur if I had to speak Spanish or French, where even nouns have grammatical genders.
If I want to go out for some “cyclisme”, what right does the French language have to tell me that it’s going to be a masculine bike ride, and not a feminine one? Or perhaps a gender neutral bike ride? Or perhaps a bike ride that starts off masculine, then transitions to a feminine one, and then from there to a gender-neutral one?
Good for the NYT to bring attention to things like this. I would have been blind to the sensitivities of what must be dozens and dozens of people across the United States.
43
"I’m glad that I’m an English speaker" ... "One small step for man..." English has plenty of residual gender in its grammar.
There is way too much emphasis on masculine and feminine grammar details - very few problems in our world stem from the fact that "chair" in Spanish is feminine. Also ironic how respect for diversity and other cultures goes out the window so quickly.
I've long been an ally to LGBT causes but I am also love learning about languages and find this article and its premise quite irritating. Forest for the trees.
23
*but I also love learning about languages
1
Yes, the article and its premise are ridiculous and not worth running. Frankly, the fact that the sarcasm in my comment wasn’t clear shows how overly tuned to sensitivity we are. A bike ride being masculine or feminine, or transitioning between those or being gender neutral? It’s a bike ride.
44
I am very confused by this article, at least the part that refers to the couple Amanda and Isaac. Reading through the comments, it's clear that many of your other readers are also confused by this article.
Amanda says that she and Isaac pass as a "straight couple," and looking at the photos, I would guess that the vast majority of people in the world who would come into contact with them would assume that they are a heterosexual couple. It's not clear to me what makes them "queer," an identity that they say they want to affirm. Is Amanda a biological female or male? (I'm guessing female because it says she welcomed her "firstborn child".) Is Isaac a biological female or male? Does one or both of them identify as trans? You don't make any of this clear, so it's very hard to understand some of their statements.
I took several journalism classes in college, and one thing I learned is that clarity is very important. This article definitely lacks it.
196
Good grief does it never end!
112
This is too funny. The couple pictured decided not to use dad, but instead “Abba,” which means father (dad) in Hebrew. So you can take the same word, translate it into another language, and it becomes acceptable?
Me thinks these folks have too much time on their hands.
236
"gender-nonconforming parents"?
What in the world does THAT phrase mean?
People can do what they want -- and use any terms they like -- but this euphemistic assault on the English language (and others) really should stop. First, strictly in terms of grammar and usage, that term should be in quotes, since it's not a generally accepted one at this point and is apparently an invented one. Second, the terms suggests that people who chose to use gendered terms are somehow "conforming" and in a manner that's implied to be conservative or even reactionary. "Conformist," etc...
Whatever your points of view, language as meanings (which of course change over time), but the attempt to come up with some sort of "neutral" term for everything seems to defy language and logic and th bent them in a way that's really Orwellian.
And then there's the issue of why the Times seems to think this self-indulgent article deserves to be on the home page? Instead of more (real) news about Korea, Bolton's attempt to foment war in Korea, the war on the EPA our environment and, or the multiple Trump scandals. Those merely affect our lives and our national security, so deserve to get pushed aside by trivial fluff, eh?
75
Great, a heterosexual couple thinks they're queer and oppressed and came up with made-up pronouns to mock their kid. What a time to be alive.
177
A ridiculous article about a ridiculous self-absorbed straight couple who think they are both special and wonderful as long as they say that they are "queer-identified" and then force their child to call them things like "Mop" or "Dommy." I recently met with a group of straights in their twenties and thirties who all insisted that they were "queer" or "queer-identified." When I asked several of them why, they insisted that this was who they were. It wasn’t who they were; they viewed "queer-identified" to be nothing but a commodity, a trendy designer label which they could appropriate. Having worked for years as a criminal and civil rights attorney, and having represented many Gays, Lesbians, and their families, it is outrageous. The couple featured here come off as nothing but a pair of narcissistic straights who have endured nothing, suffered nothing, yet think they instantly and miraculously became special once they appropriated, distorted, and totally trivialized, the struggles of Gays and Lesbians. As if that was not enough, they shirk their responsibility as parents in using their child as propaganda tool to advertise their specialness. This article does nothing but generate more heat than light. What's next, an expose about a wealthy lily white couple who never faced discrimination, yet insist that society, and their own children, identify them using language meant to create the illusion that they directly experience the racism which African Americans endure?
208
They used to be known in general as 'art students'.
84
Brilliantly said. These are the same tourists who used to go to gay bars to feel "edgy" and then rush home to do the missionary position for three minutes and fall asleep with Donna Summers pulsating in their dreams. Queer my left foot.
58
On so now Times readers want off the progressivism roller coaster? Finally realizing that tearing down cultural and societal pillars, figuring out new ways to be oppressed and to pit yourselves against each other at every turn doesn't bring people "into the tent"? Guess what, it's too late now. Democrats (sadly), haven't learned a thing from 2016. They've merely gone further "down the rabbit hole" in terms of progressive lunacy and doubled down on calling everyone who disagrees with them "racist" "mysoginistic" and "dumb". Anxiously awaiting the 2019 version of this piece "Why Hetero-Queer People of Color Need a Safe Space for Non-White Historical Contexts Related to Parental Nomenclature". Good luck in 2020!
46
It appears to me that Amanda Davidson dresses as a woman, and uses a woman's name....................so it seems to me like Amanda has assumed the identity of a woman........which I suspect is the identity that Amanda wants..........so what is wrong with "mother"?
66
First world problems.
68
The hatred and intolerance in this comments section is mind-blowing!
Call yourself what you want. Let your kid do the same— re: self-identifying as well as naming you— when they are old enough to choose. Let others do what they want & let them live their lives in peace.
Different is not equal to wrong. Others’ children aren’t your property. Parents deserve to retain their individuality vis-a-vis their offspring / don’t have to subjugate their identity to the existence of their offspring.
The last thing queer folks need is more judging and collective rejection. And frankly, there are more important things going on in this world. Stop wasting your breath!
9
This couple themselves have not let their child self identify as what they are. They have assumed that the child's 'identity' is male. Oops.
32
Since when are self-indulgent heterosexuals "queer"? It's an appropriation from people who have experienced real discrimination and abuse for their sexual orientation, up to and including death: gay men and lesbians.
43
This story makes a mockery of the real plights of LGBTQ people. If it’s a joke, you should have said so.
65
Why not let the kid decide? My son called us "Massi" and "Papi" (words he made up as combinations of our first names and the terms mama/papa) until he was 4, then (entirely on his own) he started calling us "Melissa" and "Chris" and, sometimes "Mommy" and "Daddy". We're fine with any of these, and will be fine with whatever he comes up with as he gets older.
7
I don't really have a major problem with this.
Let's also cast a critical eye at what some hetero parents ask their kids to call them. It's not just universally 'Mommy' and 'Daddy'.
Some fathers expect their children, especially their sons, to call them 'Sir'. What is being conveyed there? Has anyone examined that with as much scrutiny as whatever queer folks get up to?
4
I militantly support LGBT rights, and I am sorry but I find this to be obnoxious. It appears to have nothing at all to do with the rights of any marginalized people. What I see (and maybe I just don't know enough) is a pair of privileged white hipsters who haven't been able to find some way to be distinctive, some way to frame themselves as being on the bottom of some power relation instead of on the top.
Do they have any idea how trifling this all appears, compared to people who faced persecution and death?
110
Dumb. The term is "parent". Perfectly good English of longstanding.
25
Just what we need - another self-absorbed linguistic cudgel.
52
Do we really have to know about this? Is this really worth while to report? Isn’t this a personal matter? Who cares?
47
CG or C-gee: short for care-giver? (Can I say short? Is that heightist?)
So in semi-traditional families, er semi-trad fams or STFs (can I say families?), you'd have C-gee 1 (or A or prime), C-gee 2 (or B or secondary) and so on who parent (is parent ok?) small individual or S-I uno, S-I due, S-I drei?
Or why not make everyone "Hey you". Yeah, it would be confusing, but who could complain? Some guy named Hugh Hay?
18
To all of you people who are getting angry and calling people crazy for living their lives the way they want and saying that this is too far for you to deal with or whatever...this is just an article reporting a phenomenon, not a persuasion piece. Are you all just upset that people with different identities/ways of living their life (that don’t harm anyone as far as I can tell) aren’t being hated on or treated as “weirdos” in a popular news outlet? Then, just wow.
These people are not your parents. You do not have have to call them by these names. And kids call parents all sorts of different things in every language anyways, it’s just an extension of that variation in new social circumstances.
And as far as transgender peoples’ pronouns, which are brought up a lot by a lot of people reacting angrily to this article, unless you know a transgender person personally or professionaly, you don’t have to do know/say/do anything about pronouns. If you do know someone who is transgender, then they’ll of course dislike you for treating them disrespectfully if your don’t use their pronouns. It’s pretty simple and not too demanding, trust me.
Also I don’t understands why having articles about transgender or gender non conforming folks is so upsetting. You don’t even have to read this, people! (much less write an angry/targeted rant at a group of people that deals with negative attention all the time...)
-a transgender woman
150
Wait. Why should I care about someone's preferred third-person pronouns when my communications with that person will involve first-person and second-person pronouns?
34
The same reason I wouldn’t call you Alejandra in the third person ever if I really knew you (and still won’t even though I don’t)? It would be like if you were introduced to me by a friend and tell me “hi, I’m Alejandro, I’m a guy who does x”, and I immediately turned to the friend after we talked some and said “wow, Thanks for helping me meet Alejandra, she’s so cute!” Thankfully I respect YOUR pronouns so we don’t have a problem like that. Perhaps not vice versa though? It’s not like people never hear themselves mentioned by others in the third person, although a good way to get around this is just to repeat someone’s name instead of using a pronoun.
It’s much worse when someone is physically there to hear it, but I’m sure you wouldn’t want anyone to ever misidentify you like that even if they weren’t in front of you? It may seems ridiculous to you but that’s literally what not using a trans person’s requested pronouns is, willful ignorance. You’re just lucky enough not to have to worry about it much.
So the reason is just: basic respect. But on the other hand if you don’t actually know that transgender person or want them to like you it’s obvious you can say what you want. I don’t like it/it’s really mean and lazy and disrespectful of people different from you, but I’m not the thought police or anything.
7
With respect, this is not a phenomenon; it is a solitary anecdote packaged as a trend piece, leaving many readers feeling manipulated and frankly trolled.
92
So after all the drama, they settled on "Mama" and "Abba" (the Hebrew term for father.)
How important and what was the point of this exercise? Why is this even covered?
44
All that soul searching and they came with Mama and Abba.
Sounds very confirming...
31
I couldn’t stop laughing about the “baggage that dad and daddy have”. What baggage is that exactly?
43
Would it be unreasonable for them to be called "Isaac" and "Amanda?"
17
what percent of the total world population is the LGBTQ?
12
All I have to say is right on. I grew up in a heteronormative world where the only gender non-conforming people were the transgender prostitutes on Jerry Springer.
As a transgender woman married to another transgender woman, I can say if we adopt that there for sure wont be gender indoctrination a la societies desires. I thought there was no way I could be transgender because I didn't like "girly" stuff. As a transgender woman who doesn't glorify the MAC lifestyle I can say I welcome anything that breaks from gender stereotypes. Men can like dresses and women can like 4x4s and equality is derived from that breaking of stereotypical gender roles. Transgender women aren't all girly girls and there are some very feminine transgender men, just like how their are tomboys and butch women. The world is grey. We are finally breaking through the black and white to reality.
Welcome to the future. Humanity struggles to get better but it does tend towards betterment.
3
The best way to break gender sterotypes is to stop obsessing over them and basing your entire identity on them. Even calling a girl a 'tomboy' is implicitly emphasising and reinforcing gender stereotypes. I'm not sure how this couple challenges gender stereotypes considering that all they've done is use the word for 'dad' in a different language. And they've committed the cardinal sin of assuming their child's 'gender'.
24
It's fascinating to watch a generation first invest so much time and effort constructing a large, complicated "identity" paradigm, and then work so hard to seek independence from it.
37
Well, what's funny about this is that it doesn't matter what WE choose to call ourselves, because turns out the kids eventually decide. Our older daughter decided somewhere around 3 years old that my husband very much functioned in the role of "mommy" (as a stay at home parent) and so now both the kids have called him Mommy since then.
If I'm being honest - apologies to all my LGBT peeps - this mortified me for a while. You get some odd looks when your kid is referring to one of their dads as Mommy in the grocery store. But frankly, at this point it just feels right. And he is a pretty amazing mommy.
For all the folks worried about "damaging" kids...what's pretty clear is that our hang ups and prejudices as adults are what damage kids. Two loving parents who allow their kids a degree of autonomy to decide how to define their world are perhaps not the problem.
17
When my son was 5 he started calling me by my first name. I was surprised although not bothered. It was my elderly father who pointed out why. We were all in the car. I was driving and deeply engaged in conversation with my visiting father. My son had called quietly "Mom" from the back seat. When he finally called my first name I responded.
A very practical move on his part.
8
My wife and I choose to use "Aba" and "Ima" because after hearing kids whine "daddy" and "mommy". Our daughters, now almost 30, enjoyed having different names for their parents so if I may be so bold, we're proof there's no peril to parents, hetero or non-hetero, choosing to avoid Mommy and Daddy.
In a related conversation, if kids choose Nana & Pop-pop instead of Grandma and Grandpa, does that cause some sort of hardship?
P.S. - Our girls also enjoyed calling my wife's parents Saba and Safta, Hebrew for grandfather and grandmother.
3
My only advice is for each parent to pick an affectionate name early on for the kids to refer to them in conversations, and then STICK WITH those terms for each other. It could be mom and dad, maddie and mather, or anything else. But decide and then be consistent. And to be clear, I mean a different name for Parent A and Parent B. I am familiar with a situation in which the extended family had no problem with any aspect of the LGBT parenting, but the parents dithered around and kept using different names, including sometimes using the SAME name for both parents. This resulted in ordinary daily conversations being frustrating and confusing for everyone, kids and extended family, since it was never clear who was being referred to.
9
Let's not make life too complicated and unusual for the kiddies. They will be the ones dealing with other than ordinary situations. The adults can pick their friends and acquaintances, but children often can't.
39
This is not new. When I was a student nurse in my OB rotation back in the late 70's, I encountered young moms who did not want to be called mom, just wanted to use their first name. They also hated Mrs. and preferred Ms. even when married. I knew kids who would say, my dad likes to be called Bob, and plenty of grandparents who use other names, like Glama-Gama (seriously). So, it really is not a new trend. Just a tired one.
Get over yourselves already. You are still mom and dad or mom and mom or dad and dad, regardless of your self-stated moniker. And you are still a grandparent when you have grandchildren. Stating a cool name will not make you younger.
Just sayin....
85
A therapist I know once told me that parents who insist on their children calling them by their first names are not fully embracing the parental role. They tend to use that mechanism to put a certain distance between themselves and their responsibility as parental figures. She also said that it doesn’t matter what name you have your kids use for you, as long as it is something only they call you (i.e. any derivative of mother/father or something completely different, as long as it’s not just a regular nickname that others also use).
24
[[She’s queer-identified, and her partner goes by pronouns they/their/them and uses the gender-neutral title Mx. — she refrained from calling herself anything vis-à-vis Felix for the first two weeks of his life.]]
This is definitely a generational thing. People younger than this couple are eager to embrace these labels and give everyone his own "identity."
A young friend of mine actually scowled at me when I said I refuse to call an individual by a plural pronoun and that, for the most part, I didn't even want to go down the road of having people "announce their pronouns."
I said I'd just use people's first names. If Sam suddenly wants to be called Sally, no problem. Sally it is.
But, I told my friend that I'm not doing the "Who's On First?" routine of:
"Where's Isaac?"
"They went to lunch."
"Isaac went to lunch with someone?
"No. They went by themselves."
As for the title of "Mx.," I think it actually hurts the cause of female advancement but, hey, go ahead and knock yourself out.
And as to "mommy" and "daddy" I feel I've worked with and around enough boys who never knew their fathers (men who either walked away or got locked up or killed) and the boys were deeply screwed up by that absence.
If these people think they can come up with words and phrases that can replace the hard wiring of a kids brains, well, I'll be interested to see the results.
79
This is a very interesting article which raises the question of how language shapes ideas and in particular stereotypes roles as either masculine or feminine.
It also suggests that the English language is not keeping pace with social and cultural change.
It would be great if the word 'mother' could become gender neutral and refer only to the primary care giver and the word 'father' be treated similarly.
However, this is unlikely, perhaps a gender neutral term based on the word' parent' would be useful?
As a teacher, I feel that these sorts of issues will become more common in the future and society should perhaps find a polite and civilised way to change our language to embrace the diversity of contemporary family structures.
2
A gender-neutral word based on “parent”? How about “parent”?
71
Why should the term “mother” mean the primary caregiver at all? Why can’t we acknowledge what mother means — namely, the one who gives birth, and the female parent — as a matter of pride? If that person also takes care of the child, fine, but a stay at home dad is still not a mother. Let us not try to erase all female activities and identity.
104
@Daisi: How could Mother ever be "gender-neutral"? You think that doing so would somehow expand the definition of "mother," but actually it dilutes it terribly and saps the word of its beauty and meaning. There is really something terribly wrong with this way of thinking. And making a baby is never going to be "gender-neutral" no matter how much you and others wish that it could be.
20
Starting in 1968, we were "name" and "name" to our first born, and that continued to the later children. Mommy? Daddy? We were people, and we had names -- carried on to this day. What is the big deal here?
6
The big deal is, in my mind, that Mother and Father carry an emotional
connection that "name" doesn't. I've noticed that people that choose
to create an emotional distance (in adulthood) from a parent start
referring to them by their name instead of Mom or Dad.
35
Back in the day, one thing that stressed out most parents was having enough clean diapers available.
51
A generation ago people freaked out if you used the wrong drinking fountain.
7
I have young grandchildren and when they are with their friends they ask or are asked what their "mom" or "dad" are doing and so on. So you want some small kid to have to say my "dodo" said you can come over and play and then your "dede" can pick you up. Who wants to make their child the odd man out and put them in humiliating situations? What kind of parent does that?
37
It’s not humiliating. Not at all. People use different words all the time.
2
Hello MATHER, hello MADDIE.
Here I am at Camp LGTB.
Camp is rather entertaining.
Letters home however, fluid, non binary
49
Umm... “The label is not the role. Being a parent is being a parent,” she said. “It’s actually quite interesting that we don’t have a de-gendered parenting label in English, but in the 21st century our roles are far less gendered.”
I think the word she is struggling for is PARENT, a non gendered noun, not an adjective. And yes, I realize that she apparently is looking for another word to describe various gender identification individuals and their relationship to their child, but come on...
36
The word "mother," in English, denotes a certain relationship between one person and another. So does the word "father." If the relevant relationship holds between A and B, then A is the mother, or father, of B. How does "signalling their queerness" even enter into it? The function of the word is to reflect a relationship between the person and the child, not to label a hard-to-discern quality of the person that the relationship does not depend on.
If I understand correctly, Ms. Davidson and Felix do satisfy the conditions for the application of the words "mother of." Ms. Davidson, then, is his mother, no? If I understand correctly, Mx. Schankler and Felix satisfy the conditions for the application of "father of." Hence, they are (is?) his father.
Of course, no law says that we have to speak English. If I want, instead of saying that I am the "owner" of my phone, I can make up a new word, "shmoner," which holds between X and Y whenever X is the owner of Y and X is named "Mark." I will have in this way signaled my Markness and affirmed my identity. But as other commenters have pointed out, this hand-wringing over terms is not going to make things easy for the kid. It is, if I understand correctly, a straightforwardly factual question who his mother and father are, and when somebody at his school asks him, he should be able to tell them. No need to confuse him with irrelevancies.
157
Well, here it is. Scroll through these comments and you'll see -- homophobia is alive and well.
Such an outcry against something that simply does not matter is shocking to me. Let these parents choose what they want to be called. It may seem absurd to you, but it matters to them -- and no, their feelings do not lose all importance once they have a child.
None of this threatens your right to be called "Mom" or "Dad," if that's what you want . . . so just live and let live, eh?
13
It's not homophobia, it's common sense. So you are saying that gays should do certain things because they are gay. Where is individuality in the gay community?
25
Um, individuality in the queer community is right here, in this article!
2
Fascinating that these humans so pathologically fixated on their identities are simultaneously rendering identity itself utterly meaningless. Irony supernova!
86
I have a bottle of champagne at the ready and I hope I live long enough - for when this LGBT stuff is finally an era of our history and no longer front page news.
It wasn't long ago that the crazy right, Fox News, etc. talked about 'The Gay Agenda' and I ridiculed them. In fact they saw it coming.
29
Pre-ordering Felix's memoir now...
76
It is possible that little Felix could grow up to become a career US Marine who votes GOP and watches FOX. Ya never know! Do we?
Kids, they always want to do the opposite of what we tell them. Be careful.
19
How about Amanda and Isaac? Just saying.
15
It’s really pretty straightforward. In chemistry there are protons, neutrons and electrons, so what’s new here? Neutrons by themselves don’t make any elements, therefore Felix doesn’t really even exist in the context his parents would like to believe he does, this whole dilemma of what to call what is moot.
7
THIS! is why we lose elections. This is insanity on steroids. There is NOTHING wrong with Mom and Dad,,,,Mother and Father,,,,Grandmother and Grandfather. These are not EVIL words. THIS is why we lose elections and people like Trump win.
247
My father always insisted I call him by his name, Ingvald. Baby Felix is getting off easy with whatever strange variation of daddy they can come up with.
11
Nowadays both the left and right at least appear to be driven by those on their ideological fringes. But the left is losing elections because some of us more readily lose sight of what's important - our liberal principles - and refuse to participate in our democracy in a fit of pique over others' (frankly, rather silly) identity politics.
The right doesn't appear to have any such qualms. Look at how even those on the moderate right have embraced Trump!
16
As a life long democrat - a red diaper baby even - I agree that this is why we lose elections. But moreover, I think it might actually be reasonable that we do lose these elections. I say this with a heavy heart.
If identity politics and what looks like authoritarian linguistics is what the left stands for - maybe it's a good thing that the middle of the country is raising it's eyebrows and voting down this agenda.
Things are bad. But they could be worse.
56
“She chafed at the assumptions the medical staff members made about how the pair wanted to identify themselves as parents.” This is after they, Mx. Davidson, gave birth to a child.
This whole article is infuriating. If you don’t like being called something then let the staff know politely. Most medical staff are trying to help you out. Based on the article at the time of birth the parents didn’t even have a preferred title. All the outrage with no possible remedy.
The use of terms like mom/dad with new parents is to make the conversation more personal. It’s a huge life moment and the new title of mom/dad means a lot more than just parent for most people.
I’ll keep this in the back of my mind though now with new parents on the OB wards. Most of these issues are usually avoided by asking the adults that bring a child in about their relationship to the child at the start of an encounter once out of the hospital. The only issue I can see is immediately after birth with a child on the breast it may be odd to question the name relationship for the vast majority of people.
50
I always thought the nurses did this because they were a) trying to be respectful and b) didn’t remember my name. It never insulted me to be called “Mom,” even though I am not their mother. If being called “mom” and “dad” is upsetting, I just think being a parent may be too complicated for that person.
18
Maybe I'm just slow, but I've missed something. Amanda and Isaac are partners. He has a male name and appears (in the picture) to be a man. She has a female name and appears to be a woman. She considers herself "queer-identified" but her partner is apparently a male. What did I miss that the article didn't specifically state? Is she a lesbian in a partnership of convenience? Is he really a woman pretending to be a man? Is one of them formerly of the opposite sex? If nothing of the sort is in play, how does she claim to be "queer-identified" (Does that mean lesbian? If so, why doesn't she just say lesbian, a word everyone understands?) If something pertinent is unmentioned, why hasn't the article mentioned it?
And what's wrong with "Mommy" and "Daddy"? She settles on "Mama", and her partner, who wishes to be genderless, "Abba", which is simply Hebrew for father. Why is he going so far out of the way not to be a "he," a "him," or a "Mr."? Is he gay? And if he is, why is he with a woman?
The only logical conclusion is that these two are a perfect match for each other--both equally so far onto the path of social justice warrior that they can't see that they can't just will language, Humpty Dumpty style, to fit their whims?
She says "we don't look visibly queer." Well, duh. You're a woman partnering with a man, absent any other specific explanation. You aren't as queer as you think you are.
"We pass as straight"...just like Rachel Dolezal can pass as white.
249
Thank you...I thought I was the only one confused. I did not read all the comments maybe someone who understands will fill us in.
43
I'm with you. I am confused.
23
It's all very confusing.
23
Whatever. Children adapt pretty quickly and their family is their normal. Most kids thought want to be "normal" even in today's culture which supposedly appreciates the quirky and accepts the different. When your parents are too different you want to be "normal", when your parents are too normal, you want to be different. Such is life. Little Felix will probably end up being your average "Joe".
11
What genius heroes!
Please quit this narrative -- that everything is wrong with the world and there's so much sadness, oppression, and hostility that this new age/wave of thinking is the only element that can save us. The world has never been better and our quality of life is quite good. Have we run out of real problems for THIS to be news?
58
This is what happens when you have an enormous amount of free time..
113
If his was Facebook I would have given the rolling laugh emoji!!! Can't agree more.
8
Dear Lord. This does nothing but confuse the child and invite ridicule from schoolmates when he talks about his "maddie."
59
So much time spent on hand-wringing about names! Let it unfold. Regardless of their parents’ orientation, a child will place them in his (her? Its? X?) life with a moniker that will suit the child’s effort to make sense of their own place in the grand scheme of things. It’s time to stop agonizing over what is really a minute point in a family’s life. The same child make reject the name Felix. Stay fluid.
6
Why is this article in "Well?" Does the Times not have a Sociology section? I've asked this before: does the Times even have a medical editor or some sort of medical consultant?
Also - I am a cisgender gay man and these "LGBT Parents" are neither LGB or T and I wonder how Ms. Fairyington found them as an example of this phenomenon. More importantly I wonder why this is news at all.
Very very very disappointing.
96
Eyes rolled back so far I can see my own occipetal lobe.
162
I'm a lesbian liberal and I agree 100%. Let these people do what they want but please don't treat it as news -- it makes gay people look crazy which most of us are not.
55
I think Felix will decide what to call them. A child often says something like mama or dada...that's how it became the word for mother or father. It's universal with all languages. Of course later they can teach the child another word of their choice.
6
A billion Indians call to disagree with your universality.
Southeast Asians? What are the terms? I studied linguists and am curious. Please share a link. Thanks. My point is that infants do say mama and dada. It is universal. Show me that Southeast Asian children do not say that as their first sounds. Also, if you are referring to people as Indians from the United States, they are called Native Americans, and even that term is fraught b/c Native Americans are not a monolith. They have their own languages among their tribes/communities.
First world problems.
79
So ... your Central couple is really straight? Identifying as queer and adopting the super trendy pronouns? That acronym has made a hash out of real peoples lives.
47
Yes, our world is absolutely off the wall. Is it America or the world? What will children being raised like this grow up to be like.
20
They may just grow up to be accepting, tolerant, empathetic and nonjudgmental human beings. Unlike so many.
5
How is "mama" any less gendered than "mommy"? Seriously, how?!
91
Ugh.
She “chafed” at being called mommy and her partner daddy? How about being happy that your child was born healthy rather than worrying about how to call yourself?
Isn’t this article just about a man and a woman having a kid? What’s the big deal? Not sure how she is queer, being with him, and he doesn’t like genders (but still has the requisite male parts to make half a human). They seem to just be taking themselves way too seriously (for me personally to take them seriously). Enough with the pronouns and titles and made up names - focus on parenting and doing what’s best for your kid, not your own self-affirmation.
213
I would recommend this comment x 100 if that were possible. Isn’t parenting supposed to make one less self absorbed? Now, everyone is so busy being “special” that the actual baby and his or her (yes, I went there) development seems to be an after thought.
64
My sister is know as Nana to her grandchildren... does this make her a bad grandmother?
6
Agreed. This is a study in narcissism. Parenting is no longer important. The important thing is the everyone's identity.
106
I have no idea what the intent of this article is. Next the Times will be writing about hermits in Wyoming and the dilemma they face whether to hide themselves away in a cave or in chains on pillars. Am I an anchorite, a recluse, a stylite, a dendrite or just a hermit?
I truly await with bated breath whither the Times goes next in search of a story.
154
God bless you for this.
38
I could recommend this a million times.
29
Raising children is complicated enough
without adding layers of stressors.
Make life as uncomplicated as possible
for cutie pie Felix.
(I was mentally exhausted just reading this article)
74
A child doesn't care if you coax them to call you mamma, dada , dodo or popo.
The word means nothing to them .
It's the role that you play in their lives that colors their world.
20
I think Dr. Goldberg’s comments are dead wrong about parents who challenge gendered names and thereby risk their children’s acceptance at school or otherwise undermine the validity of their marriages and their queer families. What hokum! You know what undermines your children’s comfort and self esteem? Not standing tall for what you believe and who you are. Children hear a lot of “shoulds”, but they remember what their parents actually did. Stand up as adults to prejudice. Your children will too.
10
I wish everyone spouting snark would get this worked up about children who are homeless, hungry etc.
16
Maybe if the NYT were to spend more time and space on articles about children who are homeless and hungry instead of on articles about the lifestyles of privileged, confused hipsters who are perpetually aggrieved, we could get worked up about the things that matter. As it is, these unbearably smug niche pieces are becoming more common in the paper of record; not less.
151
Homeless and hungry are sad this situation is off the wall..
16
YES!
The culture of editorial choice at the Times deliberately chooses to foreground certain things and background other things, and journalists find stories to cover accordingly. If someone in the Times editorial group thinks this kind of story moves social justice forward, they need to get outside of their epistemic bubble, because it's catnip for regress, not progress. The uniform reaction of my lesbian/gay peeps to this article was witheringly negative.
10
My daughter calls me “daddy” and my husband “papa.” I never realized how conventional we are.
42
I wish the NYT could divert a fraction of the editorial bandwidth it reserves for gender identity issues to the desolation neoliberalism -aka unhinged capitalism- inflicted on lower class Americans and their communities, including the (non)working class whites. Although I deeply disagree with Ross Douthat on very many things, I wonder whether he is correct to claim that there is an unholy alliance between corporations, academia and the coastal elites that focuses our moral vigilance on identity issues while sparing us from having to confront capitalism's sins. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/opinion/corporate-america-activism.html
65
In my house, we call the machine that washes the dishes a microwave. And the big appliance which keeps food cold is called a television.
177
Why? I just want to know why?
7
This is so disturbing— linking the function of appliances to what I presume is your presuppositions about the function of biological males and females. Say it with me: BIOLOGY IS NOT DESTINY.
7
Asking "why" is a microaggression. Forcing me to make sense of my own nonsense is forcing your privilege on me! Even thinking that my self-important hipster nonsense doesn't make sense is aggressive. No, wait, rolling your eyes at my self-centered hipster nonsense is an act of gender-conforming violence!
Anyone else as exhausted as I am right now?
62
More power to these individuals, but is this really worthy of a front page story in the NYT?
17
I'm confused.They had a baby and parent together but pass for straight but are really queer? Did they just get together to have the baby?
40
Apparently sitting on an egg didn’t work, stuck with convention on this one.
26
Looking at them I can't tell anything about them. They look normal but the name business is off the wall.
25
Growing up with such conflict, will poor Felix ever allow itself to make eye contact with either of them? Meowing maybe the only safe thing it will feel it can say without the fear of offending.
56
I’m confident that Felix will treat the parents the same way that I treat mine: with respect.
7
Sounds good-great answer!!!!! Thanks.
More and more, people in this type of gender debate seem to be crossing the line from defying gender stereotypes to denying the existence or validity of biological sex. Since biological sex undeniably exists, and carries cetain inescapable attributes with it, I am not sure the children in the setting described are being done a service by growing up in a gender neutral home. I am all for people having a right to gender choices, gay marriage, "non-traditional" families, etc. -- these are common sense human rights. But our species is not gender neutral.
83
Yes indeed. Finally some basic common sense vs wishful thinking. Also can you imagine when the reality of parenting hits with all the layered demands, expectations, and sensitivities hit. Junior may have we/they ideas ... all sarcasm intended.
13
As many in this forum have already pointed out, parents should be more concerned about the welfare and the well-being of their children and less about ideology and labels at any cost. One striking example of the same phenomenon, but related to the gender identity of the children, is featured in a recent episode of NPR's Hidden Brain (https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=555180786). In it the host, Shankar Vedantam, tells the story of a (straight) couple who try to raise their daughter free of gender stereotypes -- something in itself commendable, given society's predilection for rigid dichotomization of gender roles, but in this particular case driven way beyond the edge.
Ironically, at the end of the day, extreme relativism simply becomes absolutist!
19
Poor Felix they/them/zin should have named him Horton so at least at some point he would get an inkling of what he had gotten himself into with the two dear progenitors whovering around him.
33
Call yourselves whatever you want, but don’t do it in the third person!
I chuckle every time I hear a woman tell her kid, ‘Give that to mommy,’ or a man pleading, ‘Daddy wants you to stop screaming!’
I always spoke to my children in the first person, and this new phenomenon is absolutely laughable.
31
So, this is a man and a woman who had a baby, as men and women have been doing for as long as there’s been a human race?
“So in some ways, our choice of names helps us affirm our identities.”
Well, that’s what being a parent is all about: you.
It’s weird, I use to “identity” as left wing. I believe in an equitable distribution of income through progressive taxation, healthcare free at the point of use, free or low-cost education from kindergarten to university and the equality of all people before the law. But I refuse to believe nonsense and deny science. If that the purity test, then I am no longer of the left. This is getting beyond insane. We need to wake up.
129
[[I believe in an equitable distribution of income through progressive taxation]]
The more you make the more you learn to exploit loopholes to hold onto your money.
[[healthcare free at the point of use]]
So where does the money come from to pay the doctors?
[[free or low-cost education from kindergarten to university]]
It's not "free"...it's paid for by taxes.
2
Remind me why I care what these folk do?
60
Yeah, but who raised them? Or those, or these or whatever. Good grief!
7
I dunno; tell me why you read the article and commented. That’s the answer.
1
Because they're part of the wave of confused and narcissistic people who are raising the next generation - and that generation is going to be one big basket case.
43
How 'bout using first names, instead of the traditional words? Wouldn't that solve the issue?
11
This is just sad. "Abba" and "Eema" means Father and Mother, gender intended, in Hebrew. It's not open for discussion.
36
I look at Amanda and Isaac and see a man in a sport coat and tie, and a woman in a dress with a hair bow. I don't see people with complex gender identities and sexualities.
The grumpy old lady part of me wonders if they're trying to be more interesting than they really are (hey, I'm also in my early 40s with little kids, and I freely admit to becoming a great bore) or if they're looking to find a reason to be annoying or offended when someone "misgenders" them. I wonder if their complex sexualities aren't somewhat theoretical as they're married and won't have time or energy with kids to explore non-monogamy.
But mostly, I just think, okay, whatever. It's their life to live, and their kid to raise, and they can do what they want. Lots of us who grew up in traditional homes didn't leave those homes unscathed by minor emotional traumas, you do you.
But I also kind of think actual queer people are being hurt by pseudo queers when they decide they're going to be all complicated and interesting and like being called "sissy man."
68
Isaac is trans. Not sure how Felix came to be.
6
@Kim Murphy: Yeah, that's what I was wondering. On the one hand, it's none of our business, on the other hand, if this couple wanted to keep their relationship private and didn't want strangers wondering about their sex life they didn't have to tell their story to NYT.
16
This is clearly a first world problem :) Bigger news this week was that 2 doses of antibiotic a YEAR reduces mortality in African children by 25%! (Note that this should not be translated to developed countries).
36
I could care less what they call themselves or what crazy sexual/social thoughts float through their heads. I do care that make their child their life's priority, they support themselves, pay their taxes and allow their child to have the same liberty of choice that's been afforded them.
12
My sister and her husband just had their kids call all adults by their first name.
5
New parents and the rest of us should try to suppress our own precious egos and stop new language acrobatics for "I, me" and just focus on "us" in the big sense. The first person singular is not working too well for the planet. All of us don't want to be like Trump, right?
13
If the subjects of this article, Amanda Davidson and Isaac Schankler, are "queer-identifying" heterosexuals, then the title should have said "LGBTQ", not "LGBT" as they are none of the of first four. The title is misleading and the article lacks research required to provide well rounded perspective from other LGBT families. Disappointed NYT that an important issue such as same-sex parenting in an era where where are lots of kids who need loving, caring and supportive adoptive families in states that bar same sex adoption is illegal feels like it has been turned into a joke based on what is a relatively small phenomenon.
18
And it just gets worse and worse.
31
Nah. Better and better.
As fireweed said"So let me get this right: Mx. Schankler thinks using the Hebrew name for father, from a culture that is much more patriarchal than our own, is more neutral and has less baggage than Daddy?" People can do what they want but sure seems like some folks are obsessed with being special at the future expense of their children
47
As an LGBT Mom I thought I would weigh in. Our kids are teens now but at the start we wanted them to call us Mama and Mommy. They now call us both Mom most of the time. When they really want something they will call me Mommy! It can be a bit confusing if we are both nearby. Then they will say other Mom. It's workable. We wanted the kids to feel like they called us something similar to their friends and we want to also have the respect of the title as their Mom.
40
I am curious to know why the LGBTQ+ community, or individuals, can't come up with something better than dragooning the plurals they/them/their into use for identifying the singular. The women's movement came up with Ms. to replace the either/or Mrs./Ms. I'm all for people identifying how they are, but I don't think muddying clear communication is necessary...and yeah, I'm referring to real-life situations involving people I know and giving direcitons and the like, and the momentary confusion that results when people think you're referring to a group of people and then have to go "oh, you mean [name here]." I'm sure there's plenty of imagination to go around...c'mon, invent a new pronoun, just as Mx. was invented! :)
15
As a member of the LGBT community I can assure you that gay men refer to themselves as "he/his" and gay women refer to themselves as "she/her". Gay men and gay women have no questions about their identity: they are men who love men or women who love women. As for these other groups, particularly the growing trendy group of straight-appearing "queers" - I cannot comment on their views.
37
Wow, they acknowledge their child is a boy and have given him a traditional "boy name"? I am all astonishment.
49
While the name Felix is traditionally (i.e. as defined by society) a male name, its origins are actually gender-neutral. The adjective felix in Latin is declined according to the rules of the so-called third declension (consonant stem declension). These words take the same form in the male and female gender, only the neutral gender is different (gender in this case denoting a grammatical category, not a social one).
I could imagine that being one of the reasons they picked that name. It’s not immediately obvious to outsiders, but then again, neither are their gender identities (they present like a heterosexual cis-couple, at least in the picture accompanying this article).
2
Amanda and Isaac are going to have one very rebellious teen aged son before they know it. Let's hope Felix has something felicitous to teach them.
17
As a member of the L.G.B.T. community, I can't help cringing. They seem like nice people and I hope they just let their child be who he is and let him call them "mom" and "dad" if/when that's what he starts doing.
30
"The duo’s ambivalence about traditional monikers is reflected in a study, currently under peer review, on the naming practices in same-sex adoptive families." Of course: Journalism 101 does demand reference to a study (even one with with just 80 participants) to give a bit of scientific gloss to a contrived story.
13
Shocking thought, but it's not even a little bit about you anymore. It's about that adorable baby (does he still get to be called that?)
You can have him call you Marie Antoinette and Harry Houdini until he gets to school and everybody has a "Mommy" and "Daddy." Don't be surprised when HIS identity includes those titles for you.
24
Not our place to judge these types of family dynamics. Private.
3
It’s hardly private when they put it all out in the NYT. Judge away, people.
48
Then why are they appearing in the newspaper?
36
What does it matter what word a child uses to refer to their parents as long as the child knows that their parents love them? The sooner a child learns how to resist problematic peer pressure and judgmental people the better.
7
Whatever works for people, I guess. I'm not going to tell people what to do.
But it seems like life has gotten terribly complicated.
As far as myself, I consider it "the luck of the draw" that I happen to have both X and Y chromosomes and am incapable of carrying a child internally but can contribute to the conception of one. Essentially, those factors play only a small part in my sense of identity.
But that's just me.
12
It doesn't matter what these folks choose to call themselves. People choose different names for themselves all the time. Having what they feel is the right name for their own identities isn't going to make them better parents. That parents love their children is so much more important to the children than what they call the parents.
5
Under any other circumstances, it would be unremarkable to conclude that different cultural groups will often have unconventional terms of address for immediate family.
9
All I see is two parents trying really hard to do their best. I am sure we all make a wide variety of mistakes as parents but it is really hard to know for certain what is best. But surely it is caring that matters the most. Good luck and congratulations.
10
And you think this is a good idea? A non-story like this is especially galling since it affects such an infinitesimally small segment of the population when you could devote your resources to something more important, like writing about the 40 million kids who wake up hungry everyday, or the dozens of deaths daily from the opioid crisis, or any number of the stories that affect the population at large. Wake up.
124
Just because you are not gender nonconforming doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be articles about those people. If you’re always looking for articles about people like you, you’re going to be bored because NEWSFLASH there are many types of people in the world. Plus, The NY Times is not trying to depress you by filling the newspaper with only stories of poverty and sadness because some people want to start off their day by looking at something progressive that’s going on. Lastly, LGBT people are just as important as those starving children and so both deserve an article.
Maybe if you looked past your judgemental thinking, you might enjoy reading this interesting article and learn something new.
5
There is a reason that "mama" is what children call the female parent, in every language group. Children begin uttering meaningless syllables until they come upon spontaneously uttering "mama"== a natural sound for children. When the female parent responds frequently and positively to "mama", the child learns to associate mama with the female parent. Same with papa.
27
Actually, things evolving rapidly...
In some sections of Brooklyn, first uttered syllabic pairing is...
"metoo"
Where did that come from...
Perhaps - original sin...
7
I've got the perfect mindset to fix this issue:
I don't care. It's none of my business.
20
Not one person leaving a comment here cares about the issue. Partly because it's not an actual issue. It's the self-centered machinations of two confused but trendy individuals. But for some bizarre reason it's forced down our throats on the front page of what used to be the "Newspaper of Record".
26
Another story that makes me so glad to not have kids. Just be the best parent you can, don't force you social experiment on others. I'm not trying to offend, just tired of trying to keep up.
35
Would someone please consider the child here? Childhood and teen years are hard enough for any child. I can't imagine the ridicule a seventh grade boy is going to get when he says his "maddie" is picking him up after school.
57
That comment is ridiculous. That is basically saying that you should not be different because kids might tease you. The problem is not the parent or the name that the kid calls their parent but the kids who are teasing that kid.
5
We solve this problem in NYC by having public transportation. By seventh grade, no child is picked up by a parent.
5
I couldn't agree more but try telling that to a 7th grader. Peer pressure isn't going away because of political correctness.
10
"Naming is particularly important to the pair as a means of signaling their queerness, since they 'pass' as a straight couple. 'We don’t look visibly queer,' Ms. Davidson said, 'So in some ways, our choice of names helps us affirm our identities.'"
So, this decision to not to identify with gendered terms isn't about themselves or their children but signalling to strangers their queerness because they look too straight? Since when does your internal identity need to be worn like a badge?
And using the hebrew term for father is not more gender neutral, it literally means father, just in another language.
116
Call me old fashioned, but I would opt for calling the half of this couple that actually carried and birthed Felex - mother. Personally I think there are much better ways to distinguish ourselves, then dreaming up unconventional ways to embarass and confuse our children.
61
I’ve already said this but kids can handle more than you think. And just because it’s unconventional doesn’t mean that it’s bad. Mother is a name for a female and if you do not identify as a woman then this name will not feel right for you. Just because kids can be cruel and unwilling to accept new ideas doesn’t mean that the person or family being teased should change so they can “fit in”. Differences should be celebrated. The kids teasing should be the ones dealt with, not the ones being teased.
2
Maya, I’m enjoying your thoughtful and articulate remarks. Keep up the good work!
just do what the simpsons the cartoon series. bart calls his father homer, and his mother, mom. problem solved. everyone needs a mom, not necessarily a dad. lol
6
Forget what society says. Wait until the kids decide to rebel by calling you Mom and Dad!
42
You settled on Mama because you came to your senses. Please enjoy being a dad and a mom because it rules.
13
Hey you and the other one might work:)
18
“Mx. Schankler remembers reading the queer writer Andrea Lawlor’s essay on identifying as “Baba” (as opposed to some iteration of mother) in Mutha magazine and thinking that “dad” or “daddy” wouldn’t work for them either, so they opted for “Abba.” It means “dad” in Hebrew, providing a link to their Jewish heritage . . . “
Right. So do “they, them and their” include Ms Davidson or not?
15
A lot of the comments to this article convey the idea that these queer parents are "obsessing" over what their kids will call them. But they completely miss the question the article is asking: why don't we think more about that?
I have a co-worker who recently became a grandmother, and she had a long debate about what her grandchild is going to call her - "nana" or "mimi," etc. Why can't that debate extend to the parents too?
Though I agree with Dr. Goldberg that parents will need to be thoughtful about how they do this, I hardly think it's a burden or harmful to the child, as others are saying in the article's comments. I support the families who are being bold enough to try something new and true to themselves.
46
After our first grandchild, I now call my wife Grandma - she loves it....
10
Families are entitled to make up whatever names they want -- because of queer or gender identity concerns, or just because. My husband called his parents by their first names by the time he was in his mid-teens. My mother is 91 and still called Mommy at times. Whatever. The point is that they can and people respect it. Later on kids will use the names they want.
8
The variety of grandparent names comes from the fact that kids name their grandparents based on what they are able to pronounce when they start addressing them. Nana, Baba, Meemaw, etc are baby talk.
5
I live in a two-mommy household. From the time my daughter was born, other adults have obsessed about this name issue. "What does she call you?" Well, I am Mommy [my first name], and my wife is Mommy [her first name]. Not complicated.
I also want to point out that even in our very welcoming and tolerant community my children get questions from other children about the two mom situation. "Is that your grandma?" one little girl asked about me. At one point my daughter actually invented a father who lived overseas just so she would have an answer to "Do you have a dad?" I agree with the other commenters that parents should be focusing on the needs of the child first and then worrying about their own self-identity issues. A child is not able to understand these issues, especially during the years when they will be calling their parents mommy/daddy/papa/etc.
26
Yes - and this couple composed of a straight male and female will never know what it is like for couples of the same sex in terms of facing discrimination and bullying.
11
Here's the crux of the issue for gay families: one word, two parents. For most gay guys as far as I know, the standard is "daddy" and "papa".
Women have a harder time as most words for mother are variants on mother, mom, mommy, mum, mama. This may explain why the use of "new" words is more prevalent among gay women than gay men.
I don't think it's as complicated as the article is making out: we have a practical problem - our language has limited words for parents and they are gender-specific. People find different solutions that are working for them: it's not a political statement, it's not about "mimicking straight people", it's just "what should our kids call us", and finding an answer that makes sense.
56
hard working hospital staff just want to make these details as simple as possible, and I prefer they focus on paying attention to the medical stuff, thank you. as far as nomenclature, typically the mother is the person who gestates and gives birth. the father is the one that supplies sperm that fertilizes the egg. In those terms there is no situation in which there is not a mother and a father. But life is not a biology lesson, and probably first name basis is the way to go.
10
Yes, but it is still so irritating to be called "mommy" by someone who isn't my child. (I'm a straight cis-gendered white woman, and I still find it irritating.)
2
Perhaps we should let the child discover and choose what they want to call their parents. After all, it's their perceptions that are the most important, and they can change with time.
5
Every generation thinks they are re-inventing parenting on some level. Fine. Whatever works for you - but you do realize the kid really just needs love and someone to keep it from hurting itself during the first 10 years, right? Everything else, the kid will figure out for itself and you will be the one to go along with it.
Might just end up being called "mommy" after all.
11
We all have names. Our kids called us by our names. Still do. It's not complicated.
10
It REALLY doesn't matter to the rest of us what people call themselves. As long as the children are well loved and well cared for, it's their business. Just don't assume the rest of us will be accommodating your new labels.
27
The only real guidepost for parenthood is doing what's best for the kids. It's not always easy to do, but it comes with the job. Over time, the children will let them know what they need to call their parents. I hope the parents are listening with their hearts.
5
Felix has two loving and thoughtful parents. That is the most important thing.
That said, this was an interesting article. We all go through life making assumptions and it is good sometimes to be reminded that our assumptions don't always match up with the reality of other people's lives or feelings.
I wish this young family well. They sure look adorable together in the photo!
12
I think there are two things going on here. One is what the kids call their parents -- different families do different things, and by and large it's the children who decide. (I speak French to my toddler and call myself Maman and my husband Daddy. She calls me Manny and him Gaddy. Go figure.) A thousand flowers will bloom whether you want them to or not.
On the other hand, if you expect daycare teachers to remember a different customized name for every parent, a name that may be different from what your child actually calls you, I'm sure they will do it, but it seems a little obnoxious.
60
When my son was 3, he refused to call me dad and called me Jerry.. Smart little dude, he said everyone else calls you Jerry and I will too.
What's wrong with that solution?
14
It's flat out wrong, because your legal name is Jerome! Sorry, just joking around. Since the 50's at least, lots of upper-class kids liked to call their parents by their first names, and it's fine legally. I'd say it tends to make the kids less respectful of their parents, makes them more likely to disobey parental rules, and makes other people think they're emotionally distanced in later life. Like if you meet someone and they say, "Oh I'd better give Harold a call", then find out later Harold is their dad, you figure they don't have a close, loving bond with their dad, or they'd call him "dad".
12
My father wanted me to call him "Tyree," his name, and my mother wanted me to call her "Nana." I did for three years, then I switched to what other kids called their parents. Meanwhile, Tyree became a frightening person in my life: seldom there and disciplining, rather than someone to talk to or do things with. Daddy. And Nana withdrew, hence Mama. When they were Nana and Tyree, they were more "real" and individual, whereas Mama and Daddy are just labels. Anyone of the proper gender can fit. As you have probably guessed, I did not have a loving, close bond with my parents after the age of three, when I began to think for myself. Hence, I assume, my changing their names.
15
THAT'S flat out wrong, Dan, (and I am not joking). Our kids called us by our first names, and have continued to. They're in their 30's.... I don't see how being o having been "Dad" would be "more respectful" - it's the quality of the relationship that counts. And what you're comfortable with, because kids can tell when you are not. "More likely to disobey parental rules"? There is very little (no?) actual data on this, for obvious reasons, but there are plenty of opinions. As for folks figuring I therefore don't "have a close, loving bond", why would they think that? Why not the opposite? And if they did, why would anybody care? I'm with Jerry on this one, but I think it is a personal choice.
1
Do whatever works for you. I'm sticking with being "dad" and their mother is "mom". My friends who are lesbian parents are "mom" and "momma". My gay buddies and "dad" and "dad". But if you feel like you need to make things more complicated for your family I say go for it. It's your mess to sort out and it doesn't matter in the end.
31
I'm gay, but I find it irritating that an article like this should warrant any real estate in the Times. The lengths people will go to in order to distinguish themselves is maddening sometimes. The apparently endless proliferation of identities (both group and individual) is divisive and polarizing. No one seems terribly bothered that we keep finding ways to cordon ourselves off from each other. Adults ought to strive to be good parents/guardians and to raise good children and to do so through their own good example. Getting over oneself is a good first step toward accomplishing this. Gender identity is well downstream of character. Labels, pronouns, invented words and syntax - it's all so silly and superficial.
445
"I find it irritating that an article like this should any real estate in the NYT"
I agree, especially when there are so many more pressing issues affecting the LGBT community such as violence, job and housing discrimination. Today a man in Texas was able to use "gay panic" as an excuse for killing his gay neighbor merely receiving probation. You think there's more pressing issues the Times isn't covering?
21
Quite true. No one was ever tied to a fence and beaten to death or dragged behind a truck for being "self-identified non-binary." Ditto for being denied visitation rights to a partner in the hospital, marriage licenses, adoption rights, etc. No "queer-identifying" or "gender non-conforming" heterosexual couple was ever mugged (or worse) for being seen holding hands in public.
12
I look forward to the day when our world is so safe, so clean, so free, and so prosperous that this actually merits a front page article. Until then, I truly do not care what terminology children use to refer to their legal guardians, and neither should anyone else.
206
Preach!
3
Sex roles are unconstitutional.
2
Hilarious. Nothing at all about sex roles in the Constitution.
5
The world is complicated enough without these confusing terms.
41
I always accepted the fact that once you have kids then life is no longer all about you. But maybe that is being reset by the selfie generation.
155
I don't see this as any more confusing than a kid who has different cultural names for their parents (and/or grandparents). I'm sure a child who has a papa can figure out just fine that their friend's dad is also a papa, and that the neighbours' moms, mamas, fathers, maddies, etc. are also parents just like papa.
Figuring out names for same-sex couples is also challenging to avoid confusion. If my future kid calls for Mom, how will we know whether they want me or my wife? What are our options? Mom and Mama? Mommy? I have a hard time imagining them calling one of us Mommy when they're 16.
Why is specifying sex or gender even important? Personally, I will be a parent who happens to be a woman, not a 'female parent.' Now that the 'female parent' isn't confined to a particular role (i.e. in the kitchen), what difference does it make? One of us will breastfeed if we have a biological kid; neither of us will if we adopt; neither situation makes one of us a 'mother' and the other one not a mother. Having a kid makes us parents. Any names beyond that are just words/nicknames the child can use to identify us. We don't call all girl children Ann and all boy children Bob, so why should we call all female parents Mom and all male parents Dad?
4
for the partner their is spouse, rather than calling person who does not look males a husband, or a man who does not look like a woman wife.
Consider kids: no confusion for them . They will have to live with the titles on the school playground, where stick and stone hurt, and words even more.
Words are the essential of the order of creation. Good luck. There are things under heaven and earth for which we have no words.
1
Not really a good exercise with which to begin a life of combined advantages and adversities. Outside-the-box is tough enough when one's personality has formed sufficiently to manifest a speck of talent and/or originality.
But. to be helpful, how about HEY U and HEY U TOO?
1
This makes me mad at first but then I think about it a bit more and decide I don't really care. They can do whatever they want.
5
Our kids found a transformative way of referring to us that subverts the gender binary - they call us by our names. Our daughter began this when she was 3 and started preschool. She learned that grownups have names too, asked us what ours are, and we've all been on a first-name basis ever since. This is comfortable and normal for our family, but it does amaze me sometimes how strong and negative the reactions from strangers can be. Why should it matter to other people if my kids call me by my first name, instead of a variation of mother? Apparently it matters, if only to prop up others' ideas of properly gendered parenting. Perhaps they feel that one cannot really be a mother without being called one..
5
First of all, where are the "Q" in the acronym. I think they have become a part of this group.
I am NOT a LGBTQ person. However, I have a very big and open window into the lives of "G" in the LGBTQ persons by having worked in a place where the "G" folks frequented daily, hourly, etc. I consider myself as qualified as anyone out there in discussing the topic of the lives of "G" folks.
What I am having difficulty is why is it that the entire population is pandering to this very small group of folks and making it the norm for the society at large. Do we want to educate our next generation that being LGBTQ is what the world should be? Do we?
There are mommy's and daddy's and these roles have been there since the beginning of time. The new roles that LGBTQ folks want to create for their adopted or artificially conceived children should be kept within their group. The rest of the world is functioning perfectly well as it is and I, for sure, do not want these ideas pushed down the throat onto me or the rest of us.
20
Funny that nobody's mentioned the potential impact on the industry of "World's Greatest Mom" mugs, t-shirts, lava lamps, and so forth. I suppose that might be because there is no real impact, the few couples who want to be known as something other than the usual parent terms do not amount to anything statistically.
So this is about the same as those articles about people who decide to get all their protein from insects, and other extreme fringe activities. It's strange, it's something to talk about, but it's not something that's going to have any real impact on society or the world at large.
23
Our daughter called her father “mum” for her year of speaking. Then papa. Now at age 5 we’re on porcupine. Who knew we were practicing cutting edge parenting. (Insert my sarcastic eye roll). What my kid calls me (mama kitty btw) is the least of my daily parenting concerns.
10
I'm 100% in support of LGBQT rights, but please remember your children need to grow up in the world as it is, which is already hard enough. Don't make it harder than it needs to be, and don't fall into the trap of pushing your rejection of norms on them in the same way you fear the world will push norms on them. They're kids, not mini-spokespeople.
135
As soon as he could talk, my grandson called his parents by their first names, never mom and dad or variants thereof. The parents said they were fine with that as long as he was respectful. My grandchildren have always called me by my first name. I'm fine with that too.
3
Sure but when he has to fill out forms in later life and the line is "Mother's name", he's going to know what to write on that line, right? Societal norms have a way of being omnipresent no matter what weird new pattern someone wants to follow instead.
10
Children should have parents who love them and nurture them. It does not matter if they are straight or L.G.B.T. However, children do need to be able to relate to the friends they make outside of their families. In daycare, preschool, etc. If they cannot relate to the concept of Mother and Father then they have another obstacle when spending time outside the home. If a parent does not want to be called Mommy or Daddy, just call them by their names. Don't make up some crazy pseudonym that no one else can understand. Fighting for the right to be a parent is fine. Jane can have two daddies and John can have two mommies. Making a 3 year old explain to a new friend what a "Mather" is asking too much.
102
That poor kid will be the only one in class who has a muzzie and dather and wonder where mom and dad are.
Honestly, think about your kid and not yourselves
422
This is so beautiful.
Sorry but I'm confused. What about this is beautiful? It's interesting, it's sociological, it's fairly harmless, but it's not gorgeous like a sunset.
37
How about Parental Unit 1 and Parental Unit 2?
The Coneheads on SNL in the 1970s came up with this clever term.
Very scientifically accurate and non-judgmental.
No gender biases involved.
230
But who gets to be Parental Unit 1 and Parental Unit 2? Even that system has bias!! ;p
18
Well obviously for all those who don't identify as male or female, they should have their children call them "Parent", or "them". For example: "did Parent say you could have a cookie?", "no, they said to ask Other Parent".
But if they want to come up with brand new parent names like 'Maddy' (already short for Madeline) and 'Dother', why not, it's a free country. Probably the increase in bullying their children will suffer from their peers will make their kids stronger in the long run.
34
Just be good parents and stop worrying about affirmation. This is so stupid, and Anglo-centric. It reminds me of the saying “dog is God spelled backwards.” it’s pretty amusing that the article cites the use of “ Baba” by some lesbian parents, since the word means “woman” in Russian. “What’s in a name? That which we call a rose...”
24
But "baba" is father in Chinese and Arabic.
3
“Dada” means “bye-bye” in Indonesian. What’s your point?
Exactly my point. And he means she in Hebrew. And mama means papa in Georgian.
We could also discuss the work of Roman Jacobson about parental names, but that’s linguistics....
Btw, I’m a lesbian, just in case the queer thought police are on patrol. My personal sexuality doesn’t trump logic or grammar or compassion for the wider world. This is madness and, as others have said, a giant gift to the right wing, it’s silly, narcissistic and divisive.
Further, those who note how hard it is for boys to not have a father, it’s just as hard for girls. I didn’t have one, and as a wise psychologist wrote, it is a “loss that is forever.”
3
Good grief. They have a brand new baby and they are obsessing over what it will call them someday? Priorities, people.
217
They are so flipping HIP!
For now.... thanks for the jaw dropping article...
28
Let's think of ourselves as parents and junior will just have to figure things out for themselves. If the real world tries to enlighten our children then we will correct them. Reading, writing and arithmetic can wait. Our ideology and lives that we choose to live will become our children's. That is all that is important. Of course we are not being selfish or dogmatic.
8
How non-conformist.
16
What bothered me is where Ms. Davidson said that using unusual names was “self affirming”. It’s not about you anymore.
266
As a middle aged gay women, I find these new 'queer' non-binary pronouns exhausting, confusing and at times silly. I know several lesbian couples who have kids and one is momma and the other is mommy. What's the big deal?
479
That’s because they’re both women, so that makes sense. If you don’t identify as a woman or a man (at least not exclusively), why in the world would you want to use momma and mommy?
Also, do you usually ignore trans peoples’ pronouns when you actually meet them? That’s quite rude. I don’t know how you find it exhausting either, unless you’ve been hanging out with tons and tons of transgender people for years and years. It’s very exhausting to refuse to a couple new words and change your mind, I suppose?
-A Trans Woman
3
Hear, Hear!
8
Zaza and Mama seem about right for Isaac and Amanda. If I were in a situation like this, nicknames based on parents' first names would be the way to go for me.
Also, I can't imagine two wives or two husbands. Why aren't we using the gender-neutral term "spouse" for each of the couple? If the words wife and husband have traditionally been gender-specific, why would any LBGTQ want either designation? And if we want gender equality, let's not call the "dominant" spouse the husband and the "submissive" one a wife; it defeats the goal for equal partnership and worth.
I don't see any stigma here, except in the imagination of queer couples, and in the tsk-tsk of biased fools. Have your children call you by the names you teach them to use.....
3
Honestly, enough is enough. I'm a proudly married gay man and while I don't believe in being held hostage by names and labels, the relentless attempts to turn even the most basic upside down is, simply put, STUPID. Oh, and when we get the label wrong, what are we going to be called? Bigots? Homophobes? Racists? Even within the Transgender community, I can't count the number of times that the pronouns change from "he" to "she" and back again even among close family and sometimes even the individual themselves. Moreover, I realize that traditional families do not guarantee strong or successful ones BUT I also don't believe that adults ever really think too much about the desires or feelings of children. Life is hard enough without having to go around explaining that not only does one have 2 parents of the same sex but now we don't even call them "mommy" and "daddy" - oh no, those labels just will not do! Well guess what, they WILL do and perhaps it's time for those seeking to upend them to realize that they have been given (or won) the right to have an untraditional family but as to the names we call our parents, those will remain inviolate. There's a fine line between granting rights and overindulging whims.
218
The articles coming out on the children of LGBTQ parents are really quite interesting and insightful. Sometimes they pose new questions.
Some of the children of LGBTQ parents are no longer small and some may get married and have children of their own soon or later on.
My question is how these web sites that are all about Ancestry (i.e. Ancestry.ca or Ancestry.com) address same-sex parents if their children ever wish to enroll in their web-search services?
If some of the web sites are, say, Mormon-based, and refuse to acknowledge same-sex couples, how valid or invalid will these websites increasingly become?
5
Good question, and most ancestry sites use DNA as part of their tracking, so in all same-sex couples, the DNA would only be coming from one parent or the other (possibly one child having Mary's DNA, and another one having Susan's, etc.). So tracking the family tree using genetics would only get half of it.
I don't think any of the main ancestry tracking services are Mormon or Catholic, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem with the same-sex thing. On the other hand, if there are any, they're only losing about 2% of the potential business at most.
I have participated in both Ancestry.com (Mormon) and 23 and me (silicon valley). Neither group asked me about my family of origin. They were happy to take my money and send me the saliva kit. I had one major hit - who happened to be my father. I called him up and said "I knew all along, you look so much like me!"
Again, I emphasize the Mormon organization had no screening questions, but did want to know my credit card info.
5
Thank you very much for the clarification. As a Canadian, many of us are perhaps naturally suspicious of American things. There seems to be so much anger in your country that is challenging for us to understand. Most pleased that you were able to connect with your father. It would appear that something positive came from your search. Well done you!
3
This exercise in narcissism and self-absorption does not contain one word about the welfare and well-being of the children involved. A baby is not a blob of meat or a pet or a subject of a social science experiment. He is a human being. Please consider him.
473
So well said.
Hopefully the next step doesn’t involve the boy himself being given non-specific pronouns until he’s old enough to decide for himself how he feels or what he wants. I’m a parent in Park Slope, Brooklyn-trust me, this isn’t as sarcastic or far-fetched as it might seem.
Growing up is tough enough without creating additional edgy minefields to traverse.
And someone else mentioned it too: “it’s self-affirming”. You haven’t entered a new trend to revolutionize, and the common mechanics of parenting are common to most of us: feed them, shelter them, love them, try and show them how to be good people and get along with others in their community. What they happen to call you has very little to do with it.
45
From shaming to -- finally -- naming, they are now parents in deed. May they shame the rest of us with their love for their adoptive children and the glorious lives their children have in front of them.
1
And I agree with another commenter, don't make your child be the billboard or explainer or validator for your gender identity, politics or choices. Let them be themselves, whoever that turns out to be.
222
The kid will probably grow up gender conforming and referring to his parents as mom and dad, when they are not around.
19
Why is this an issue? Amanda Davidson and Isaac Schankler are free to refer to themselves as they please. Who cares? The hospital probably has a policy that requires staff to refer to patients by the personal pronoun of their choice. Most newspapers, including the New York Times, have similar polices. However, gender identity has no impact on biology. The rest of the world is free to refer to Amanda and Isaac as father and mother.
27
I'm not sure how using another language to say "mother" and "father" or "mom" and "dad" is rejecting gender identity. "Mama" and "baba" are mother/mom and father/dad in Chinese (and maybe in other languages as well). Using those terms is the exact same as being called mom and dad, it's just in a different language...
What you're called seems like such a minor detail as parents, I'm not sure why this is even an issue. Are they going to refuse to acknowledge their child if he chooses to call them mommy and daddy? I highly doubt it.
35
It's true that the first thing is for kids to be safe and have parents who love them. But this seems guaranteed to confuse kids, who, like it or not, do partly understand and sort the world in terms of gender. And that's good. It's real. We shouldn't be experimenting with their emerging psyches like this, or trying to force them into some artificial, gender-neutral coding of their own parents that doesn't comport with anything in the real world. Kids aren't stupid. If they have two moms, they know that they have two moms, and making them call one of you "Maddie" will not change that. It will just feed your ego (Aren't we great? We're completely dismantling conventional gender ideologies right here in our own home!) while confusing them and everyone else. Beyond that, if my kids had started calling me "Sissy Man," instead of "Mom," I'm not sure who would have ended up in the psychiatrist's office first.
30
Forget about confusing stuff like Dom and Mad. What about Isaac and Amanda?
Yeah, I know those names are both gender conforming, but the parents seem cool with them. Why wouldn’t the kid?
10
I really could care less about how they want their kids to call them. I just hope they do not force schools to do the same thing.
20
Why do they feel that the world must conform to their chosen lifestyles? I conform to fit into this world in hundreds of ways each day in order to survive. Nobody bends to my wishes.
69
Not everyone sees this kind of thing as something to celebrate.
72
Perhaps at some point,
they might consider having Felix call them
"Isaac" and "Amanda."
Why do parents need a title?
3
It's true, and it's an established meme. I recall plenty of kids from high-class, extremely hippie, or both environments, who called their parents by their first names. It always seemed cool, snobbish, and emotionally detached to me.
5
The piece could have profiled a same-sex couple since the research the article is about is on LGBT couples. As an old L, it’s challenging for me to see people who are otherwise living heterosexual lives (and presumably having heterosexual sex to make that baby) adopt the moniker “queer” like it’s a cute hat to put on. So fun and unique and cool without the struggle or stigma.
112
My thoughts exactly!
10
Here, here.
8
Anything to be different. Even down to assuming nobody is going to figure out what that little slice of Hebrew means—hint: it means the same thing they’re breaking their backs not to say.
117
It has taken the adult Western world some time to begin to accept the equality of human beings regardless of sexual orientation. And, clearly, there is some way to go yet. Children are tough customers, smelling out any weakness or strangeness and honing in for the bullying. We would certainly like it to be otherwise, but for now (and likely for the foreseeable future) it will remain this way. Can parents truly be nurturing when they virtually ensure that their toddlers-later children-later teens will stand out in ways unlikely to be accepted by most of their young peers?
5
We've been teaching our four year old son our 'real' names. In the event he becomes separated from us. He also knows his first, last and the suffix.
8
Same here.
What’s more, my boys have know their address, as well both of our cell phone numbers by heart since they were 6. If they get separated from us in a crowd, a cop or a kind soul could connect us pretty quickly.
2
What exactly is the point of this this article?
This is a couple in a heterosexual relationship. They can call themselves "Queer" all they want to but they have nothing to do with Gays/Lesbians. They're a straight couple with a kid. Being artsy doesn't make you oppressed.
This article cites a study (still under peer review) that looked at 40 Gay/Lesbian adoptive couples and found that ALL of them chose derivatives of mother/father. But that 4 of 20 Lesbian couples and a whopping 1 of 20 Gay couples chose something a little offbeat. (Note the fuzzy math in the article. How does 20% of Lesbian couples and 5% of Gay couples add up to 25%? It doesn't.)
Again, what is the point here? Why is the NY Times writing an article about a small, statistically insignificant study that hasn't even been peer reviewed...that shows that Gays and Lesbians aren't rejecting traditional parenting names...and using a straight couple as the main subject?
I'll tell you. This is another step in the battle to eliminate the words and concepts of sex, sexuality and sexual orientation...and replace them with gender, gender identity and gender non-conformance. No, thanks.
356
Why do you believe that they are in a hetero relationship? I believe that Isaac is a trans man; hence the muddled pronouns.
6
Your perception is clear and accurate. The even bigger question is, "Why is the elimination of clear sexual linguistics and boundaries so important to the editors of the NYTimes?"
29
I agree it would have been more poignant/impactful for this story to feature a more visibly queer set of parents. This would have helped more mainstream folks grasp the article’s points and concepts more readily; sadly, comprehending the nuances of distinguishing gender identity from sex and sexuality and gender presentation is not a forte of the majority. The argument you make here is exactly the type of argument that intolerant people spew when justifying the continued dehumanization of LGBT folks, and we need pieces that function more effectively (rhetorically speaking) in order to help push the envelope forward.
5
Sometimes when I read articles like this I wonder how crazy is the world going to get. Then I console myself by remembering that Times readers represent only a very small proportion of the population which, as a whole, is still the same as in the past.
44
Keep in mind too that most NYT readers actually find this kind of pushing-the-envelope on social norms thing to be a bit ridiculous. Of all the people reading this, I guarantee any that are parents are fine with being called mom, dad, and the usual iterations.
29
It’s such a crazy world, isn’t it? I wish folks would just make things easier for you. It’s be much better if everyone catered to your desires instead of their own!
1
Really this should be about the child and only the child. Babies do not care what you identify as or what your orientation is. All they want is to feel secure, be taken care of and loved.
Besides, kids will call by you what name they like best in the end anyway.
11
I'm a gay man who plans on adopting a child with my husband in the near future. Our child will most definitely call us "daddy" and "papa". We are not gender fluid and we are both men and want to be men. I truly don't understand the idea of removing all gender identity of parents that have no gender fluidity. I'm all for people deciding what is right for themselves and their kids but this idea that we have to remove all gender clues from all of soceity is patently absurd.
124
You’re so right, Robert. Anyone who’s been a parent will agree that this issue will drop so far down the list of priorities it will probably disappear.
18
People are ambivalent, they yearn to belong yet not conform. The greatest challenge we have in life is to learn to accept ourselves for what we are. In that sense, titles are meaningless.
6
I'd be very interested in how well adapted children develop when their parents (whoops, I hope "parents" doesn't offend) )view words like Dad and Daddy as baggage since they lack gender neutrality. Or when those kids first start interacting with other children who all have moms and dads, while junior has his abba I wonder what kinds of socialization challenges emerge for these children. I try to remain open but these parents seem more focused on their activist contribution to their gender identity, than their children.
21
If you're that intent on eschewing traditional parental handles, why be cute about it (e.g. "Transparent's" Moppa)? Don't you have first names your offspring can call and refer to you by? Or if first names themselves are too gender-specific to suit you, there are always numerals, or "Hey, you."
6
In the era of the old Andy Hardy films, wives and husbands would address each other as "mother" and "father." As a child viewer, this would confuse me as to the relationship.
1
Bilabials are the phonemes that infants use first. Thus "mama" and "papa". The child can distinguish between who to call these two names, i.e., who is mama and who is papa, and not call his or her "mama" when they are referring to the father or "papa". This occurs in cultures throughout the world. "Isaac" won't be said by your small child.
15
I suggest Yo.
"Yo, what's for dinner?"
"Yo, I got an 86 on my math test"
If one parent doesn't respond then Yo, Yo is convenient.
"Yo Yo I'm hungry man, how about some cheerios?"
43
There just seems to be no end to people not wanting to conform even a little bit, not even for their own child's sake.
35
As straight as we are, our adopted son self selected "Madad" as his identifier for us. We understood this because we equally showed up to address his needs and to shower him with love. A very astute child.
Considering the fact the there seems to be an arms race among today's parents to come up with the most clever/bizarre/edgiest/funkiest names imaginable for their kids, it does not surprise me that this egotistical bent extends to the names they want to call themselves.
42
The problem is conflation and irrational process.
IDK how you can teach an adult who thinks (Imagines really) they are an adult and that their education was done well that the very processes their minds use are incorrect and full of holes that create confusion and false ideas like Truth being something that is conditional or subjective.
Of course this cannot possibly harm the children, right?
3
I wanted my daughter to call me by my first name but she didn't want to! So, whatever she's comfortable with is fine with me. I go by mommy, mama or mimi, depending on what she prefers.
3
I don't know. They're new parents. I think we end up taking cues from our children as they grown into their own identities. As my kids grew up, I found it was less and less about my pre-conceived notions and more about flexibility and understanding my child.
2
We have a TV station which broadcasts reruns of famous game shows from the fifties and early sixties -- such as "What's My Line" and "To Tell The Truth" --
As a baby-boomer myself, I am always taken aback when a woman on one of those shows is asked to introduce herself -- and then replies -- "My name is Mrs. John Anderson" -- or -- "My Name is Mrs Robert Jones" -- basically identifying herself as the property of her husband --
Also -
My wife was was previously married to another man before me - and when we married I encouraged her to take back her family name - which she did --
If her family name is "Smith" (and mine is "Jones") -- I can't count the number of times I've been called "Mr. Smith" when meeting people for the firs time --
While I agree people - including children - should be given the freedom to discover and develop their own sense of identities and identifications -- it's also refreshing to see how we have progressed since the days of "Mrs. Jon Anderson" ...
2
I have three young children who have always called me by my first name. It's not confusing or difficult for anyone involved. After about one or two interactions teachers, doctors, babysitters, etc. "get it." A lot of comments are focused on how there are way more important aspects to parenting than what one goes by. Sure! My trans identity isn't central to the vast majority of the activities involved in the drudgery and joy of parenting. I don't change a diaper like a trans person or do homework help like a trans person. But I have as much right to be called Krys instead of Mom or Dad as someone has to go by Joe instead of Joseph. For some reason the latter is never an issue, but folks suggest I should just "get used to" people having a tough time understanding that I just like going by my name. Totally agree with the sentiment that this shouldn't be central to my interactions with others, and even though I live in a remote area, no one seems to care!
5
From the beginning, we encouraged our two children to call us by our first names. Easy. Over time, I became "Tina", and my husband was always Nick. But I noticed that even our most progressive friends found it uncomfortable to hear my children call me by my first name. I had no idea that such a simple thing was such an act of rebellion. For us, it is perfectly normal to be a mother and father without a reminder of the hierarchy between a child and a parent and between parent and parent. That hierarchy can be very restrictive just like the names and labels you write about in this article.
2
But there is a hierarchy. You tell your children what to do don't you? You teach them, don't you? You know better then they do when they want to run out between cars, don't you? You protect them, don't you? You're not their pals. You're their parents.
27
As new parents, get used to people not getting your name right. It will be the least of your problems. Also - try not to embarrass your child unless you absolutely have to, and you will have to occasionally.
If your child is "Mary Smith," you will be called Mr. Smith, Mrs. Smith, or Mom or Dad by medical clinicians and teachers because they don't have the time to remember your exact name. Their energies are rightfully devoted to your child. Your name is meaningless to them when they are discussing your child's health or leaning issues. And it will be meaningless to you also after the first few times.
And - don't make your child explain your gender identity every single day by giving yourselves different names and making a really big deal that you are not a "traditional" Mother or Father. Your child will have enough trouble making friends without having to bring you into every single interaction. He should be able to say "My Dad will drive us." Or "My Mom is a dentist" without having to discuss gender roles or sexuality.
Finally - it will matter to some parents if, for example, their child is staying overnight at a house, where there is only the dad present with no mom. It's okay for that to matter. So just be clear to other parents about who is male or female, if someone is staying over. Gay men and Lesbian parents make great parents, if they are parents first and foremost. That is the same rule for straight parents.
291
DWS of Boston, your comment is breathtakingly rational, practical and sensitive. This advice would have made a much better article than the one it is responding to.
23
I am not so sure there is a big deal with names as some say, people have been creating names for their parents and grandparents for a long time. Some parents even when I was growing up insisted their kids (and other kids) call them by their first names (used to drive my dad nuts), others came up with other names, like pop (for dad), pop pop (grandad), Da, Ma, and I heard other terms used like Mimsey, Dasa (for a father), etc. When I hear a psychologist say that we have to be careful around kids, I wonder if they have every been around kids, they basically accept what others do even if it is different from them, they are matter of fact, it is adults who have the problems if something doesn't fit what they do. Language is a living thing and people create their own syntax and languages all the time, and it is not surprising these kinds of things are going on now that gender/gender expression/identity are undergoing rethinking or as the nature of families expands and grows, too.
This is common when transgender people transition, where one of the spouses transitions and the label becomes changed. To a child a dad transitioning is still dad inside to some extent, so they often will use labels like Damsy or damon (dad-mom contraction) or the like. Language is a tool and people are creative tool makers.
27
I guess I should view this article as good news in that just a generation ago the GLBT community was fighting for its right to merely exist and not be classified as a psychological disorder. Today I see we're fretting over the implied genders of the names that the children we're legally raising are going to recognize us as....
7
Congratulations on your new life brought into this world.
May they be called whatever they want, they call you whatever you want and may all of us respect those decisions.
That is what it is to be free within society and the ultimate goal for every being on this earth.
15
I agree. But then people can't get offended if you accidentally refer to them as the child's "father" or "dad" if you don't know their preference. People are not mind-readers.
19
I think FunkyIrishman and Jg are both right. If I want my son to call me, "God", that should be roughly fine. But teachers, other parents, and so on, should not worry about offending me by referring to me as my son's Father, rather than Holy Father, because it's a societal norm, and because addressing people by societal normative names is an attempt NOT to offend them.
8
As an English teacher, I like to see people consciously remaking language and inventing words to suit their new social experiences and structures. Good for them! I hope people in other new social situations and structures will similarly play with language and invent new words to suit their needs. Language should be ever-evolving and ever-growing and who better to invent words than the people who need those words to communicate their realities? Everyday a person should invent a new word to keep thinking about their lives: My new words? "Olympasnoozer": a person or being (like my cat) who sleeps like she is competing in an Olympic sleeping event. And "Anihuman"--when a person and their pet become like one being because they spend so much time together.
42
I disagree. Especially about the pronouns. Language is not meant to be a sop for your ego, or a way to differentiate you from the vast herd. It's a method of communication. If you are "they", I had no idea there were 2 of you. The royal "we" is used by Queen Elizabeth, mentally ill people, and gender non-conforming people. Since the gender-nonconformers are not royalty, I conclude that they are mentally ill.
47
And some people doubt the intelligence of the academic class!
3
Language will indeed continue to evolve, slowly yet steadily as it always has, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that nor anything anyone can do to stop it. The problem arises, in my mind at least, when trying to force language to not only evolve or expand, but reject something as fundamental and universally non-discriminatory as number.
I personally have no problem with efforts to make language more accommodating of gender fluidity and thus less heteronormative. I also recognize that aspects of patriarchy have long and massively impacted our language, and believe that evolving past that is a good thing. I do not believe, however, that taking a word that has long meant "more than one" and simply deciding it should now also mean "one" is in any way appropriate, much less helpful to anyone.
They, them, and their are plural pronouns. The fact that they imply no specific gender should not provide license for those who also wish to eschew association with a gender to appropriate those words as singular. That is recipe for confusion and misunderstanding, not to mention a nightmare for any teacher attempting to instruct youth in basic grammar. I assume you, as a teacher yourself, recognize as much.
13
I don't doubt that Felix's parent love him deeply.
When I think of my own two kids (which is 99% of the time), I find that I must always remind myself that they will grow up and that they'll become adults, with their own thoughts and ideas. Because of this, I always try to carefully pick what to teach them, as I know that parents have the most profound impact in a child's emotional development.
As a linguist I know that words have meaning, and that the meaning of a word is related to the way we perceive the world, but that meanings change over time, as do our perceptions. I think that part of our job is to teach them the language that will allow them to express themselves and understand the world, but not to constrain them in a preconceived world view by imposing our meanings to words. Our kids will grow, and they will interact with other kids. They will create new words to help the cope with the challenges of their lives.
We must provide them the tools to grow and become the best people they can be. This is why I think we should put our identity issues before their needs.
3
Absolutely. A male person is "he" when referred to by a pronoun. He may prefer the use of "they" but I will not do that. Language is not a tool for personal gratification. It's a method of communication. And if you talk about singular others with "they" in an essay, you will get a reduced mark.
23
I meant to say "This is why I think we should not put our identity issues before their needs".
8
"l always try to carefully pick what to teach them, as I know that parents have the most profound impact in a child's emotional development." Perhaps, but just wait untill puberty hits in and your kid has an iPhone and a Twitter accput.
1
With triplets graduating from three different liberal arts colleges in a few weeks, I frequently learn about the seriousness of their friends' concerns regarding gender equity and the language pertaining to it. They have not a few examples of kids -- young adults! -- who are more than thoughtful about how they want their identity, evolving or pretty well established, seen and linguistically used by others. The source of this? Empathy and human regard, I'm convinced.
As these young people grow into parenting years, will they wrestle with social labels? Darn right. We are in a period of radical transition, and we "older folks" -- 40 and more! -- will need to exercise our own sensitivity about why naming is so crucial. Yes, the children are extraordinarily crucial in this process! But change rarely comes without some pain, and we've hardly been overwhelming kind to our children thus far (bullying, social pressure of the media/advertising/etc.). Loving parents make a huge difference. The upheaval our society is in has to result in some positive results, I have to believe!
I'm hopeful that dialogue, good will, and openness to what young people are thinking and feeling, especially those who are exploring the frontier of gender difference, will expand our thinking not just about language, but about the all-important human experience the language signifies.
5
I'm glad to call someone by the way they ask me to be called. And parents can teach their kids to call them whatever they want, and I'll be happy to go along with that. But please let's not make this a religion, where people who don't ask everyone about their preferred pronoun or tell their kids to call them Baba are somehow regressive biased sinners. Is this another way in which we divide our society into tribal teams?Language is important, but the spirit behind words is more important. The goal is a world where everyone treats others in a respectful and loving way, regardless of gender identification. Changes in language might help in achieving that goal, but aren't the only path and certainly don't guarantee its achievement. We've been using Ms. for a long time now, but still #MeToo is necessary and we haven't passed the Equal Rights Amendment.
44
as soon-to-be grandparents, we were asked by our daughter what we would like our grandchild to call us. apparently this is a thing with millennials. i simply called my grandparents "grandma" and "grandpa." i can assure you that my parents did not ask their parents what they wanted their grandchildren to call them.
42
I think this has been pretty common with grandparents for quite some time. In the 70s, my grandparents picked the names they wanted their grandchildren to call them: MomMom and PopPop on one side and Nana and PopPop on the other. They chose the names when their oldest grandchild was born, and all subsequent grandchildren used the same names. My friends growing up had a wide variety of names they called their grandparents. And my parents each had specific names for each of their grandparents.
6
Who cares what they call themselves. That's a distraction from the core part of parenting!
The real question is: will they be there for the child day after day, decade after decade. That's hard work over decades.
Many parents get so wrapped up in their own problems that they forget about the kid. Some parents run skip away. Some get divorced, and fight each other so hard they forget to put the kids first. The stories of failed families go on...
If the parents in this article consistently put the kid first, they can call themselves whatever they want!
32
Call me old-fashioned, call me over the hill, as Bob Seger sang, but I do not agree with this kind of revision of the family. It is not that I am against the LGBT community, but I do not agree with the substitution of the non-conventional term for mother and father and other pronouns. I know that the use of conventional language may be offensive to some, but I believe they are just going to have to bear with it until the older generation is dead and gone, and an entirely new generation of enlightened people have replaced them. Thank you.
31
Don't think it's a question of "enlightenment." Rather, I agree with contemporary Polish philosopher Zbigniew Stawrowski, who coined the phrase "sleek barbarians" for today's cultural nihilists who, in the name of their pseudo-"rights" and alleged victimization, are really victimizing real children who have a right to "mother" and "father." But we have long gone beyond the interests of the child to the wants of the contractors (parents must be a loaded term, too).
22
We are abba (me) and daddy. It had nothing to do with rejecting "dad"/gendered language when I became "abba" and everything to do with having a parent name connected to our heritage and that is different from daddy. I nevertheless think that Dr. Goldberg was a bit over the top in her concern about creating greater otherness for a child from names other than dad/mom. No one has been confused by "abba" and, to school/doctors, we're just both dads, or parents. I love the NYT and loved this article but trust me, most gay/lesbian parents still go with some variant of dad/mom.
5
I get it that naming is a significant act, for these parents helping to confirm their identities. But how will this affect their children, trying to figure out their own place jn the world? Children often have a way of deciding these things for themselves.
61
What does this even mean? Also, why should parents (especially women) subjugate their entire individual lives and personal wellbeing for the sake of their children? That’s toxic; it means a person’s sole existence is to serve a child (not too far from the toxic notion that biology is destiny).
2
Our daughter called her dad by his given name most of her childhood finally giving it up for "Dad" because of peer pressure. She's in her thirties now. Scott, her dad, and I are still married. We are one of those old timey nuclear families with two parents and two kids and a gaggle of relatives who include us in family events. The kids gave the name G-unit, something about my personality...It's all about the love not the name. I say go with what works for you and your family.
10
As a parent, I avoid propagandizing my child.
Other than trying to be a good person and hope my child follows my example, my child is not my social experiment.
As to my child's sexual preference, I could care less.
That will come in time, but it will happen on its own, without any pressuring from me.
As to what my child calls me, we collectively chose something honoring my maternal great-grandfather.
Families are and should be about "family."
Before deciding to have a child reference you and partner as "Moon Station One" and "Moon Station Two," you think about that.
You have names, why not try those if you want to eschew gender-specific ones.
For me, a child needs to understand while he or she is a child that for the most part, the world is made up of men and women who are different, but equal human beings.
There will be time enough to learn that there are a few folks who fall in the middle and are to be equally loved, cherished, and respected.
170
As a gay parent, I suggest letting the kids decide what they’re comfortable with. Because it is, or should be, about them. And believe me, after the first day of parenting, you’ll have way more important things to think about!
287
It's a bit difficult to let the child decide for the first year or two! After that by all means.
Our son dropped Mummy and Daddy and started calling us by our first names when he figured out that was what everyone else called us, at about 5 years old or so. As far as he was concerned those were clearly our proper names and he had always been a stickler for accuracy.
16
I disagree. Our children quickly decide what they call us as soon as they start learning the language. I know a few children who opted to call their parents by their first names. My own daughter, who is currently 5 and bilingual, goes back and forth with "papa" and "dad", though with her mom she only uses "mama", probably because I actively try to teach them both languages and engage in conversations in both much more frequently than my wife does.
5
So let me get this right: Mx. Schankler thinks using the Hebrew name for father, from a culture that is much more patriarchal than our own, is more neutral and has less baggage than Daddy? Not if you are Jewish or know Hebrew! This sounds like anything to be different or unique. Feeling sorry for the kid!
638
That was my first thought. 'Abba' has 'baggage' dating at least to the Iron Age Levant - millennia of baggage associating the word with fatherhood. And in a delicious ironic twist, American Evangelicals - a very traditionalist demographic - often translate it directly as "Daddy"!
23
Please back up your claim that the Jewish culture is "much more partiarchal than our own," and while you're at it, explain what you mean by "our own" culture. Who is 'our"? By the way, traditional Judaism is matrilineal; you inherit through the mother.
Would you have said you "felt sorry for the kid" if Ms. Schankler had said she was calling herself "oom" if they were Muslim, or "maan" if they were Hindu? I strongly suspect not.
And yet this was the most liked comment....
9