Sounds to me like you really need to find another marriage counselor if you want to save your marriage. That and the both of you need to start communicating to each other in an adult manner what is wrong, how you honestly feel and what needs to be fixed. The husband needs to understand that his wife has lost trust in him and it's going to take time and a lot of love to win that back. The wife needs to let go of the anger (along with the photos) and let her husband know exactly how much he hurt her.
51
I can see why these folks are divorced.
76
What jumped out at me in the first letter was "I’ve tried to delete them from her phone". Assuming this was not with her permisison, it is real sabotage. The wife is keeping those photos to prove that she can't be rolled (again). I wouldn't put money on the longevity of this marriage. Nothing about love mentioned. One has to wonder what brought this couple to marry in the first place.
100
#2
Yes, you will have to pay up.
Your ex husband and his dentist wife are absolutely being world class rats for putting you in this position, but, in this fallen and unfair world you really have no choice here. Your ex husband must be quite the despicable fellow and you’re well rid of him if that’s any comfort.
259
While the wife appears to be responsible for bills, it does not appear that she provided consent for this dental appointment. Since the father has decided not to take the high road and wants to use his daughter, the mother should have the daughter ask the father to amend the bill. He will have to admit to his daughter that he is using her to get at his ex-wife or he will fix it. He and the step-wife should have taken the high road but if they don't the mother can also yelp like crazy.
80
As a woman (long married to a man) I see the troubled marriage somewhat differently.
The husband was wrong for lusting after another woman and engaging in an online affair. That violated his wife's trust and revealed a worrisome lack of respect for her. He does not say when he ended that flirtation -- was it when he was discovered, or before? That is an important thing to know. I assume he has apologized to his wife, sincerely. The little fling is in the past. It probably meant nothing, and he has done his penance.
The wife is wrong in holding resentment and continually punishing her husband. As the Ethicist says, forgiveness is either total or it's not forgiveness. The wife is dishonest in staying with a husband she clearly disrespects, resents and distrusts. The holding of "evidence" to wave in front of her husband, and her constant punishment, are indeed abusive behaviors. This is not love. Unlike the ethicist, I see this as number one in the Top 10 things that are rotten in the marriage. This is a deeply unhealthy relationship.
Do they love each other? That's what matters.
Unlike the Ethicist, I believe that a sincere apology is essential for the process of forgiving a spouse. A real apology (not "I'm sorry you are hurt" but "I'm sorry I hurt you") shows that the spouse acknowledges the damage he's done. I want that moment when my husband says, "I did it and I am sorry, and I will try to do better." All I expect is for him to try to do right. No one is perfect.
75
Regarding the dental bill, the writer is responsible for insurance, but is she responsible for all medical costs that insurance doesn't cover? She did pay for insurance and met her obligation. But the child was not covered yet. I don't believe she is responsible for the bill no matter who the dentist was just because of her agreement to pay for insurance. They must have an agreement for splitting medical bills. This bill should fall in that category. And the daughter should not get, "Why didn't you tell me..." questions. Not her problem!
85
I think letter #1 was meant for Social Ps and Qs and was placed in the Ethicist's inbox by mistake, owing to budget cuts at the Times, no doubt.
But I always though it was unethical for a doctor to treat a family member as a regular patient. And even though the step mother was not the attending dentist, would being in the same practice also be unethical? Yet I see from the comments that its commonplace and the lack of ethics is that the stepmom charged an exorbitant rate. Maybe this letter is proof that it should be unethical.
Anyway, the father and wicked step mom are quite deliberately messing with his exwife. ("Quick!! Suzzie is momentarily uninsured, let's stick Sally with a large bill, bwaahaha") And using the daughter as the weapon. But given the tit for tat that seems to occur in bad marriages (see letter #1) I wonder if this incident was preceded by one in which mom stuck dad with an expense, which was preceded by....
54
it is not unethical (or even against the college's rules) to see a different physician in the same practice as a (step)parent. i'm confused how that is even close to being unethical? or are professional perks in itself unethical? parents of airline employees get free flights; accountants, books and taxes done for free; lawyers. free legal advice and wills; roofers, free roofs. we wouldn't claim any of these are immoral or wrong.
22
I would begin by taking the child to another DDS , pay the bill and move on
58
You screwed up, for sure. But it is also fair to say that your wife has some serious issues. The lock-screen thing is beyond crazy. Get out.
135
even if she gets rid of the "evidence" of her husband's indiscretion, she simply has lost trust - the photos keep her anger alive, while she participates in killing the marriage. it's not the betrayal she is so upset at (although justifiable), but i'll venture that it is because he triggered feelings of being devalued or "not good enough" in her. if the marriage is to be saved - the work is in their dynamic - not whether she gets rid of the pictures or not (although it would be a start).
50
There were several mistakes made in the dental care of the child, all by the ex-husband and the dental practice.
1. People with dental insurance tend to go to practitioners who are "in-network", or they expect to be balance billed for services. The ex-husband surely knew of the ex-wife's job change. Therefore, there would be a reasonable expectation that the child's insurance would have changed with the job change.
2. He needed to have checked with the ex-wife anyway since insurance only allows so many cleanings per year, and he can't assume the ex-wife still uses the same dental practice.
3. The front desk people at the dental office should have checked on the dental insurance before treating the child. Had they done so, they would have found out that the child was no longer covered and notified the ex-husband. This presumably didn't happen (or did happen, and the husband knew his wife would be stuck with the bill).
I would suggest to this couple that the wife, who has the insurance for this child, be the one making the appointments for pediatric and dental care for the child. Insurance is complicated these days, and only the policy holder has access to some information which can minimize out-of-pocket expenses.
In this case, the husband is the one who is at fault here. He made the appointment, took the child to the appointment and didn't present an insurance card. He should be responsible for the entire bill. Presumably, he can negotiate the bill with his new wife.
307
My dentist's office checks on coverage before any work is done. If the father took his child -- we don't know how old she is, but she must be young and therefore clueless about coverage -- to the dentist appointment, the administrative staff would probably not have run the costs by him, as he was not the policy holder on record. But they would have contacted the mother, generally speaking. They would have learned, had they checked with the insurer online or by phone, that coverage had expired. Since this is the stepmother's office, perhaps the staff didn't follow usual protocol, figuring that it was all taken care of? Whatever the explanation, something is fishy here. This is exes using their child to hurt each other. It's twisted.
103
Do You Know Why Divorce is so Expensive?
BECAUSE ITS WORTH IT !
94
I am an American pediatrician who has moved to Greece and works here. I have had some regrets, but today's article made me glad I have done so.
Here it is unheard of for a doctor to charge an immediate family member. It would be considered crass, and I agree. If the patient happens to have insurance coverage, I collect the amount that will be reimbursed and if not, I consider it an act of love.
232
The immediate family member wasn't being charged; the immediate family member's mother was being charged. Big difference, as the payer is not related to the dentist (or a dentist in the practice). Is there any difference between the patient's mother and the "insurance" company? The mother was supposed to buy dental coverage for her daughter, and both are unrelated parties to the dentist. Is it ethical to charge the "insurance" company if you wouldn't charge the patient?
(I put "insurance" in quotation marks because as it is used here, it's not insurance - it's pre-paid expected care)
6
Yes indeed, let us all look to Greece to make good decisions about policy and money.
Glad you're happy. And gone.
10
Responsibility for dental treatment is not so clear cut, and in cases like that, one may need an arbiter. The woman should put in writing that she challenges the charge to get the collection agency off her back and then let the dentist move to the next step to sort out responsibility. In today's health care market, there is an issue of provider panel, so when there is a change in insurance company, as the father appears to have known (his ex-wife out of work), one needs to check that the provider is in the network before proceeding with services. He did not do that, and that, in my mind, muddies the issue.
60
After having read “My Wife Found My Sexy Phone Pics and Won’t Let It Go,” I find myself wondering what the ethical issue is here.
35
Forgiveness and trust: both are grounded in ethics.
13
Re: "If your counselor made a list of what was rotten in your marriage, I doubt your wife’s vengeful lock screen would make the Top 10."
Wow. LW#1, remember--it only hurts because it's true.
38
I don't understand why an "ethicist" is answering questions that belong to a therapist.
57
LW#2: Perhaps you should have paid the step-mother dentist, $20.00 now and $20.00 when you catch me. Keep track of your payments and pay Dr. Step-mother directly. Regarding the collection folks, ask them for an itemized statement and see whether or not the care provided was necessary or not. Then speak with the collection folks and maintain that you have been paying Dr. Step-mother directly. When you make your final couple of payments to Dr. Step mother, pay her in pennies or nickels. That sidewalk act will prove you can be as petty as your ex-husband. Bottom line, you can probably pay the collection agency a final settlement amount of say, $300.00. Another possibility is that you can take aa page out of the DJT playbook and tell all of them you will see them in court and file for bankruptcy.
18
Bankruptcy, over $400? Really?
6
A $400 dental checkup? What kind of dental office charges that much for a simple checkup? I've been to dentists in three US states and Canada, and have never been soaked $400 for a checkup, with or without insurance. I've paid less than that for full x-rays, fillings, bonds and cleanings (separately). Considering the ex-husband and his dentist wife seems to have assumed the daughter was covered by insurance at the time of her visit, I think the dental office may have two fee schedules: one for those with insurance and one for those without, and they charge higher fees for insured patients, to soak the insurance companies. No wonder premiums are so high. Is that legal if the dental office is doing that?
Regarding paying the bill, legally she pretty much has to, but I'd certainly find another dentist for the daughter and take my business elsewhere.
81
LW2 definitely sounds like up-billing to get insurance dollars.
I've long thought that dentists have a sliding scale of charges, depending on their assessment of patients' ability to pay, with or without dental insurance. In order to dress for billing success at a dentist's office, wear casual clothes whenever possible. No Nike's, no Manolo's, no silk or cashmere.
26
Letter #2, pay the bill, then immediately switch your daughter's dentist and notify your ex. Notify the old practice, in writing, that you do not consent to, and will not be financially responsible for, any future non-emergency treatment for your daughter. You have some legitimate complaints about the way your ex and his spouse handled the situation, but they aren't going to be receptive and dragging out the argument will just hurt your credit and your daughter, and likely won't make you feel much better in the end.
196
LW#1 - Your marriage is over. You were wrong to engage in an extramarital relationship and all it entails and your wife was wrong to keep the photos and hold them over your head. Life is short and no one should live in a relationship that involves emotional terrorism. Get out now and create a peaceful life for yourself. Don't fool around in your next relationship.
LW#2 - Pay the $400 because your failure to do so is negatively affecting your credit. You can argue with your husband later. Since you are responsible for health and dental insurance, hubby should coordinate basic checkups with you beforehand and give you a heads-up for emergency visits. You should select the doctors/dentists your child visits so you can determine who is and is not in network. Stop expecting your ex-husband's in-laws to do anything that benefits you. Sorry.
77
As someone who has had experience working with battered women, as soon as I read the statement " I've felt emotionally abused by my wife etc.....but it's what I've got", I recalled many of the women I met making similar self defeating and demoralizing statements in attempting to rationalize and minimize the abusive bahavior of their partners. Not being privy to this couple's day to day interactions, I can only speak to the information provided in the letter which leads me to think that it might be but the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
32
Sure, and many times it's what they call 'gas-lighting'.
He wants to confront her and feels he's been abused, when he went outside the marriage? She wants to 'keep her power over him by keeping the photos'? What power is that? She's keeping 'evidence' and a reminder of betrayal. They need therapy, if they are to break through passive-agressiveness, and the real and valid anger they both carry.
38
I agree, Maggie2. I look at people's intentions when they do bad things. The husband had an online fling (with a consenting adult, unlike an ex-Congressman of note). It's an easy thing to fall into, without meaning to cause harm. He may have begun the flirty contact innocently, as teasing game. Or maybe he was testing his feelings for his wife. For all I know, the guy is just a cad, but in the big picture his flirtation means little. My guess is he just went with it, giving it no thought whatsoever.
The wife, on the other hand, repeatedly acts with the intention of causing her husband pain, and controls him with the threat of punishment. She holds him down. There is no way to skew that as anything but abusive.
20
LW #1 - Your marriage can't be saved so get the divorce now instead of later. Who wants to waste their life in a miserable relationship?
LW #2 - Your ex-husband is the responsible party since you did not consent to your daughter's dental exam. Thank you lucky stars you're no longer married to this guy. He's now the dentist's problem.
104
What a horrible example for the child. No matter what is in the divorce agreement, treating the mom the way they are is, in my view, awful. My husband is an endodontist and he has either not charged family members of colleagues or friends for free. Or, he has charged a reduced fee He is a very principled man. Sending the bill to a collection agency is beyond sad. This doesn't bode well for the future and the father and step-mother should be ashamed of themselves.
142
Thanks Brigid.. there is a fitting follow up. The stepmother has since files fro divorces from my ex-husband. And my daughter who turned 21 has found a new dentist she lies a lot and takes my insurance e..:)
75
Number 2: Find a new dentist. Your old one has been overcharging you.
62
1st Letter-
"- I love her. I don't think it's a very healthy relationship, but it's what I've got."
The forgoing statement is what he thinks AFTER the efforts at marriage counseling, during which the counselor apparently never got both parties to agree to destroy the photos and the wronged wife still uses the photos to humiliate the offending husband, and the husband hasn't yet "confronted" the wife about her use of the pictures on her lock screen to torture him?
And the husband wonders what to do? They BOTH need to get out of this. Surely they know that there are worse things than being alone. Why either one would want to prolong the suffering each is experiencing baffles me. Get out.
36
OK, let me understand this . . . the stepmother is a dentist. The father took his daughter to his wife's office for dental work and sent his ex the bill. The patient is the dentist's step-daughter. Why was there even a bill? Have we gotten to a place in our society where children of professionals have to pay for a parent's/step-parent's services? Or it that just divorced professionals? Would there have been a bill if the father were a widower? Or was there a bill simply because the divorce agreement stipulated that the the ex was responsible for the the child's medical/dental bills so she is obliged to pay, regardless? Whatever has happened to our collective common sense and just plain ordinary decency? The divorce agreement is a contract, to be sure, but Is there no longer a line between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law? Absent a graduate degree in philosophy or ethics, my ethical barometer points to the lingering vindictiveness found in many divorces, not the ex-wife's obligations.
147
Would you have the same issues with charging the dental coverage company for the same services?
I’m curious I don’t have regular dental insurance, but when I see a medical doctor, they regularly ask for my insurance card before treating me. Doesn’t that happen with dentists? Shouldn’t office personnel have cleared that before treatment?
93
So many people, so little civility.
For the mother who breached the divorce agreement and failed to provide insurance: you are on the hook for the payment *unless* the divorce agreement requires your consent for medical and dental care. Your ex and his wife are nasty and inconsiderate, petty and small minded, and your relationship with your ex is toxic, but you still owe the money, because they have a legal document that says so.
Suck it up and try to figure a way to dispel your anger without involving your daughter. You can stick pins in their effigies, or something. Time to move on. Sometimes people are awful and their is nothing we can do to change that.
49
LW1 - You haven't got a leg to stand on. Yes, your wife is mad at you. She's entitled. You screwed up. You sound like a middle-school kid trying to deflect well-deserved blame. You aren't named Trump, by any chance?
LW2 - It sucks, but you have to pay the $400 plus all the additional fees that have been assessed for nonpayment and bill collection. It doesn't matter if that is your ex's wife works there. You are responsible for the health and dental bills. Since the whole thing has gone to the bill collector, your ex and his wife couldn't even change the bill if they wanted to. And quit trying to blame your daughter; I'm sure she had no idea - if she had, she would have been happy to have a great excuse not to visit the dentist.
24
I think you should take your ex-husband and his dentist wife to court, small claims or whatever it is where you are representing yourself.
Explain that although you are responsible for your daughter's healthcare, your daughter's step mother did a dental exam without your knowledge or consent. Then charged you for a visit you find not agree to. And when you disputed the bill, sent it to a collection agency.
Look for a new dentist and tell people what happened to you. They are harassing you. They'll keep it up until you fight back, which in this case simply means telling what they did.
125
I would pay that bill to avoid collection and the hit to my credit report but I would slow pay anything I owed him directly.
4
The ex-wife's case is supported by common decency, but I don't see any legal basis for her to prevail in a court.
8
1. Dear Fella, Since you are not able to communicate with your wife, show her this letter and tell her you wrote it. I believe she will leave, as she should, (and probably should have a long time ago).
2. Dear Mother, if you did not contract for this service, I do not see how you can be held responsible, unless it was an emergency. Four hundred dollars may not be fighting for, but you could ask the collection agency for documentation that you agreed to this treatment, and refuse to pay. Make it clear in writing to your ex that you do not consent to and will not pay for non-emergency care in the future, without your prior written consent.
55
Great idea, or just tell the daughter that no one really cares whether she gets dental care or not - not her mother, her father, or her stepmother.
7
"I have not paid, as I believe it’s wrong to have charged me when it was known that I didn’t have company insurance at the time."
Just like it's wrong for you to expect someone to provide you their time and labor for free.
Pay the $400 and stop trying to be a chiseler.
16
Yes, she probably got the two million dollar apartment in the divorce settlement too.
2
#1 Shades of Anthony Weiner. We all know how that ended up. The poor guy who knows he's not in a healthy relationship, but it's all he's got should head directly to Divorce Court.
#2 There are a lot of excuses and unnecessary churn and spin coming from a woman who still appears to be bitter about the divorce but the divorce agreement is clear. The mom is responsible for paying for the kid's health insurance. Her excuse for not having insurance in place is inexcusable.
9
I always think the Washington Post reveals the most horrible stories about American life but the NYT rivals it here.......Goodness ..how mean vicious spiteful can people be...I suppose it comes down to the obsessive love of money that American society revolves around and as usual its in the healthcare business that in America is simply the most crooked and vicious in the western world....theres nothing more to say really except that such a mean vicious experience must destroy ones whole belief in any kind of decency in the world.....any way my dear ...endure..best wishes...
20
Two questions on the second letter: Did the divorce decree say that she was responsible for all medical and dental expenses, or just the insurance? Under the decree, who is responsible for covering co-pays, deductibles, out-of-network charges, and items not covered by insurance? These are not trivial expenses under many plans.
Also - who signed the financial responsibility agreement with the dentist? If the mother signed a long-term agreement with the dentist, then she pays needs to pay the bill. Some dentists, though, have a patient (or parent) sign a financial responsibility form at every visit. If the father took the daughter to the dentist and signed a financial responsibility form, then he is responsible for the bill, regardless of what the divorce decree says. (In either case, he can take the mom to court over violating the agreement that she provide dental insurance.)
In either case, the mother should find a new dentist for her daughter, and send a letter to the dental practice stating that the daughter has change dentists, and the mother will not pay any further bills from that office. If the step-mother is going to treat her step-daughter as just another patient, then the mother should treat the step-mother as just another dentist.
105
The problem here isn't pictures, it's control. How many other things hasn't she forgotten? If you think she's being manipulative and controlling, tell her that. She won't agree. Ever. There's no way for you to change this. Get out or get Prozac.
Look, I went through something very similar with my (now ex) wife. After twenty more years, there were two ways out: Suicide or Divorce. I chose divorce during which she was just as manipulative as ever and i recognized it now that I could stand back and look.
The real problem was that i valued the marriage and she valued control. There's no middle ground. Either shut up or get out. By the time I chose divorce, I was so depressed I could barely function. I seemed to be the only one who didn't know the situation, though. Acquaintances I barely knew would ask "What's wrong with her?" and I had no answer. I'd endured the behavior so long it had become the norm. During counseling, i recounted an incident where she pointed a loaded shotgun at me and her reaction was to run and hide in a corner.
Only two things mattered to her: Control and Money. She's got neither now and I have my sanity. I'm okay, she's a..........
23
I hadn't realized my ex-wife had remarried?
13
Mom should pay the bill; experience does not come cheap. By the way, what was the problem- just a routine checkup cost $400? I am just curious.
14
If they decide to do a flouride treatment and x-rays a check up can be nearly $400.
6
The ex-husband and his dentist wife are trying to stick it to you. Doctors don't charge family members for service, at least in my experience. And they certainly don't send the bill to a collection agency.
If you can afford it, I'd pay the bill just to get them out of your hair. But I would also switch dentists asap. There appears to be no advantage to your daughter going to her step-mother's practice, and a lot of disadvantes.
Since it's your money being forked over, give it to someone a whole lot nicer than step-mom.
325
It would not have cost the dental office much to be kind. Mine is - I can spread payments, and for that grace, I am charged interest. It would have cost father and step-mother nothing to be kind, and would reinforce to the child that kindness is a family value. The mother now has the opportunity to reinforce another family value, which is to pay what is owed.
With regard to the first letter, the couple would be wise to seek additional counseling as to whether they choose to have an ongoing relationship, and what the parameters of that relationship will be. The husband is clearly not satisfied with the current parameters. It is unclear whether or not the wife is.
19
Let her keep and use the photos. Think of it as her way of helping you to not repeat the offense. Your choosing to make a big deal of it is one of the problems you need to address.
23
Wonderful way of reframing this. Takes the fight out. I would add to thank her and reassure her until actually considered real and true that is not your deal anymore. She's you're deal or isn't; if not, time to leave as kindly as possible.
7
"Name Withheld" sounds like a real narcissist. Love how he tries to blame his infidelity on his wife's behavior. Classic narcissist "I only hit you bc you deserve it", right? Early in the marriage, no less...
Gee, why is she afraid to "let go" & trust him again? Guessing this is just a small sample of his "me" attitude. My advice to HER is run, fast.
64
Some women hold into transgressions like a dog with a bone and then love to stick it in your face. It's a horrible way to live. My advice is get a divorce and move on. It's no way to go through life.
27
Change the beginning of your comment to "some people" and it will still hold the same weight yet not be misogynistic.
85
Giulia Pines- this comment is no worse than the ones presuming LW1 is a man.
3
A father should cover medical (and dental) care for his daughter when his ex-wife can't. Rather than holding his wife to the letter of their agreement (and sending her to a collection agency!) he should have thought of his child, and said: we'll take care of this. The child sees the father using her as a weapon against his ex-wife, and sees her step-mother colluding in it. Great parenting (not.)
105
Who said his ex-wife can't? She was already working a new job, and we don't know much of either's financial situation. Even with the new job, she may very well not be able to. But we don't have any information to determine it one way or another.
2
Phone pics guy-
Why did you need to seek out pictures from a stranger? A couple of observations. Pictures are pretty lame. You aren't going to get much gratification out of them. So why bother to begin with? It sounds like you were angry at your wife, and given her reaction, I can see why. She sounds like she puts her needs first and is somehow denying that you have any.
If she can't see that holding some minor (and a bit pathetic, sorry I am old school... pictures are for high school boys) indiscretion over your head is far from being a good partner, and I can imagine how poorly she meets your needs.
As far as marriage counseling is concerned. That is a waste of money. I bet the woman you shared he pictures with can give you better advice than them.
If your wife refuses to see that and you have no kids. Hold your head up high and hire a good lawyer and find a real woman
6
And the wife should find a real (faithful) husband and hold HER head high--after she hires a good lawyer.
49
Advice to the Wife holding on to the Images :
GET THEE TO A NUNNERY !
2
One of the oddities of dental insurance is that by convention many dental offices bill ahead of appointments for crowns and other major work. My insurance company doesn't pay until after service is rendered, and lets dentists' office know this when they are notified of pending dental work.
I found this out as a result of going overlimit when my dentist's office missed the warning...
But that being said, ruining your credit over your daughter's dental bill seems like cutting your nose off to spite your face - even if there is enough pettiness going around to kill a mule.
14
I think the guy with the wife who won't forgive the dirty pictures should dump her. Get out of that marriage. It's lousy and it will never get any better.
The ex-wife should pay the $400 dental bill and then find some creative way to secretly inflict revenge.
22
The real Carson Drew would never think this way.
2
I love the revenge part - honestly, it would be worth it after this petty action by the father. Revenge and a new dentist.
5
Ok legally she has to pay or face having credit messed up over a small amount. What both parents need to realize is the dollar amount involved is paltry compared to the probable expense for mental health treatment the girl will likely need as a result of having 2 stupid self centered parents who can't get it together and act like adults for the sake of the kid.
70
The father and step mom are vindictive snakes trying to stick it to a struggling Mom. I have no sympathy for Dentists who make more than a thousand dollars an hour and still try to stick it to their step kids Mother, with a collection agency. PU! I feel worse for having read this drivel, they belong on Springer.
90
The ability of some women to harbor, nourish, and exploit a grudge over a wrong cannot be rationalized, and neither can what this woman is doing. Perhaps we can agree that men do tend to look at this as an exchange, or a barter situation, and that much the "Ethicist" got right, although this so-called expert got that entirely wrong, in terms of its significance. The husband thinks, and believes, he has done what he can and the woman should realize that: The truth is that the wife doesn't care about the husbands's efforts or actions or words, so long as she gets what she wants and he continues to suffer. Could some women look at this as a bargaining sort of issue? And accept the apology and move on? Probably some could, and happily would, so this "issue" is not all men v all women. The problem is that this poor devil found and is trying to keep a woman that can't seem to let go. That's more of pit-bull or fighting dog characteristic than that of a helpful life-mate. At this point the issue is entirely that of the woman/wife, because she wants to make it her way or no way, and get an advantage over him whenever possible and by any means. It's only his problem to the extent that he needs a new woman. He's not going to change the woman he has, and she is trying to prove that to him. He needs to stop apologizing, to stop asking for forgiveness, and ignore her whenever she starts on the issue: The she would lose her power over him. This is all about power.
7
Change "women" to "people" and you would have a point. The writer also is not forgiving and forgetting his wife's actions.
Forget couples counseling: each spouse needs individual therapy to sort out why each appears both to need to hurt the person they love and to be so emotionally fragile. If they can't individually reach the point where they can learn both how to be trustworthy and how to trust, then they shouldn't be married to ANYONE.
15
The point of the matter is that ALL emotions can be controlled, including anger. As Victor Frankl pointed out "The last of human freedoms is the ability to control one's emotions in a given situation", when his wife was murdered right in front of him by the Nazis. In example 1, BOTH parties are playing it for all it's worth, and it's starting to look like a brushfire that's out of control. There will be no winners here unless somebody grows up. The basic problem is attention seeking immaturity. Childlike.
12
I think it is time to find a new dentist
51
I don't get the inclusion of the first one...are there not enough ethical quandaries left in this world that you need to advise a philandering husband on a dysfunctional marriage to his passive aggressive wife? Where do ethics come in here? It makes me question Dr. Appiah's whole grasp on the concept of ethics in general!
20
"It's what I've got" ????? Get ready for divorce, then.
40
" sexy " phone pics. Dude, you have two choices with your wife. Fall in line, obey, and certainly stop communicating with other females. And for the love of APPLE, never, ever take any more sexy pics, or ask to be sent same. Choice two: get a divorce. Of course, we'll be hearing from YOU again. Eventually. You really need a harmless hobby. Or three.
20
I realize it's not The Ethicist's place to say this, so I'll say it - the couple in Scenario #1 should get a divorce. Period, full stop. If his wife is truly emotionally abusive, and counseling hasn't helped, then even absent his "sexting" habit, the relationship sounds untenable. That said, what could be more emotionally abusive than entertaining emotional/sexual validation from someone outside your marriage? Who could blame her for holding onto it? I'd hazard a guess that he hasn't fully owned up to his misdeeds in counseling, or else tries to justify his behavior, and that's why the relationship hasn't healed.
49
#1 Might as well start protecting yourself from wife running up your credit cards. Consult a lawyer.
10
In the first instance, this seems to be a question that's more appropriate for Dan Savage, not The Ethicist. He would likely reply to DTMFA--which you can google since it's inappropriate to print in The Times.
As to the latter letter, what The Ethicist fails to acknowledge is that these two people brought a child into this world. With that, comes a responsibility, an ethical responsibility, to care for that child. And that goes beyond providing food, shelter, and medical and dental care. The father's petty actions against his ex-wife are completely unacceptable. Any aggression (even the passive type) against your ex-spouse is also an aggression against your child.
If it is her responsibility to provide medical and dental coverage, then she should be consulted in such matters. It's quite likely that the father knew the mother went through a period of unemployment which typically comes with a lack of insurance coverage. This sounds intentionally malicious. It's inappropriate for him to bring his child to his new wife's practice at the mother's expense without her approval.
The pettiness of this father is outrageous. The divorce decree is immaterial here. His new wife can easily wipe these charges and should for the sake of her step daughter.
61
Make a deal, yeah a real deal. (You) "If I go X number of..what mos./yrs. then will you delete them?". If the answer is no try one more similar offer if the answer is still no...get a divorce.
3
Wait, let me get this straight, YOU feel emotionally abused by your wife? Why? Because she is holding you accountable for being a liar and a cheater?
Wow. That's rich.
So I have no idea why/how you feel you've been "emotionally abused" beyond the fact that your wife won't forgive you for the incredible breach of trust that you displayed. You lied to her. You cheater on her. You broke your marriage vows. Beginning of story. Story. End of story.
This is exactly why we live in a culture of misogyny. Because men like you BLAME women for the simple and brazen act of trying to make you face what you did.
Sorry. I hope for her sake she runs. In you she has a whiny remorseless baby......and I bet she can do better.
60
Wow. All of the people writing in AND/OR their connections seem to truly lack ethics. Sexting while married is a no-no (ick!), and charging your ex-wife for dental visits for your own children via your new wife's dental practice is completely wrong (ick!)... Divorce for the first whiny sexter; and the dental dad and his 2nd wife dentist pick up the tab for the dental care. Cases closed!
52
I really liked your discussion of what forgiveness is.
7
L1 - doesn´t sound like you want to be married to each other - get out or change that. Sounds like a state of mutual distrust and recurrent rage - you can always each get a pet and try to be happy unmarried.
L2 - just pay the 400 smackers, you ain´t gonna win this and sending kid to stepmom as dentist sounds like you 2 exes like to set up fighting situations. Don´t anymore discuss this with your kid, that was and is totally out of bounds. Your problem, you signed the divorce decree, get over it.
11
First question, to the man with the pictures that are now on his wife's phone being held over his head. Should you confront your wife or just let it be? You find it hard to move forward with the pictures on her phone? Take it from me, this is just the beginning. It will never go away. You either confront not only her but your entire marriage (why are you married, what about it isn't healthy, what can you live with/what can't you live with, the whole shebang) or you will become increasingly unhappy and waste lots of both of your time.
The dalliance and pictures might not have meant much to you but that doesn't matter one iota to your wife or her feelings or the stability of your marriage. The fatal rend in many many relationships is a misstep such as yours after which the couple seem to come together and work things out (or appear to) but in reality they're going through the motions and miserable.
You got married, took vows I assume. This is what happens.
13
End this obscenity of a marriage. What is going unsaid is why "it's what I've got." Money, prestige, social connections? The expense of dividing up assets? Why was that not being considered before the first lewd photos were being sent? A spouse who is being deceptive clinging on to a spouse who "emotionally abused?" Far too many lines have been crossed by both partners for there to be a healthy way forward.
And this is why I am increasingly reluctant to recommend marriage. I have three eligible offspring, all of them deeply honorable people. Mostly, what's out there today turns out to be manipulative, or clinging, or abusive deceivers with ulterior motives.
Salvage your dignity, move out and move on. Let us all hope you are less immature from this ordeal.
Any fool out there still sending images of their privates deserves all the ugly consequences that inevitably follow. No one should feel obligated to stay married to a dangerously out-of-control juvenile.
22
The dentist stepmother is stingy and cruel. She should forgive the debt.
61
Why exactly did he save the pictures at all? And is there a whiff of sabotaging the marriage? Betrayal, passive aggressive...don't know. They have been to counseling and he cannot confront (aka bring it up) his wife? It feels like there a unacknowledged issues by the husband here that may be contributing to the wife's lock-screen anger. Way beyond a missive to an ethicist.
22
Seems to me he has to act like a man if their is any chance to salvage the marriage. He needs to make it clear that the pictures need to go or he goes. The other alternative is to shut up and decide he would rather have her hold on to the pictures and bring them out now and again then to leave her. In that case I hope that he would have the good sense to have a vasectomy as it would seem a tragedy to have children brought up in that household
4
A "real" man wouldn't be soliciting sexy photos from outside his marriage. It sounds like he shouldn't have gotten married to his wife in the first place. He wasn't ready for a lifetime commitment.
24
The father is a jerk for bringing the daughter to his partner's practice regardless of the divorce agreement and the ex wife's unfortunate financial situation. The optics are just awful although the partner may have no part in it, it is conceivably an abusive personal enrichment issue on top of another chance at a dig. She is on the hook regardless because that wouldn't fly in any challenge and the $400 is a paltry sum in the scale of any legal ramifications and obligations involded. Simply galling but that is what divorce often is.
39
mother should pay the bill and clear her own credit record, which is WAY more important for her and her children's future than arguing with jerk ex-husband.
but then, mother should 1) file in court to make sure that since she is responsible for medical payments she is the only parent in charge of scheduling and permissions, 2) change dentists!!!! stop letting stepmother get in the middle of this and take fees. the collection action does not deserve any further business.
69
Is it typical for a husband to continually check his wife's phone? that seems like an indicator of an ongoing trust problem right there.
9
Is it rare for someone to see the lock screen of someone else's phone? They're often left out, and the lock screen shows anytime a new message (or other notification) is received.
3
Lock screens are off until you push a button on the phone.
3
Or until the phone receives a message (or other notification). It's also quite visible if he's sitting next to her as she pushes a button on the phone. It's quite possible to see it without touching it. And, hypothetically taking the husband's story to be accurate, she probably makes it pretty obvious.
2
It is unethical for physicians to care for kin, including step-kin. I don't know about dentists. And it is not clear that the child saw the stepmother or another dentist in the practice. Among physicians, custom calls for some distance - a referral or use of a practitioner who does not share a financial arrangement, a business, with a family member.
The father is a jerk. But the ETHICAL thing is for the LW to pony up in order to protect the CHILD from any concern about responsibility for cost burden or any dust-up among the adults. The LW has already induced guilt in the kid, no doubt, by raising the issue with the kid. One can easily imagine that this was anticipated by the father and/or stepmother.
Adults have a duty to children. I don't know or care if this involves "ethics".
17
Re: LW1, I'm wondering (1) how long ago the breach of trust was discovered, (2) what steps has LW1 taken to restore trust and (3) what the wife says is her reason for keeping the photos.
On one hand, LW1 is clearly playing the victim card. Is he using blame-the-other as a strategy to elevate his own moral ground? It's a common (but ineffective) response to one's own wrongdoing. Think playground, "She pushed me first." The more effective (but more difficult) approach would be sincere remorse backed up with clearly defined trust-building actions--premeditated, communicated in advance and followed through as described. Rebuilding trust is a long term project that requires consistency.
On the other hand, LW1's remorse seems genuine. If he has been actively engaged in trust building for several years without improvement, maybe he should reevaluate his approach and ask himself how much more effort he is willing to invest in the absence of progress. Surely this has been explored in counseling, but the obvious questions for the wife are what actions can he take that will help her build trust and why does she keep the photos? Maybe there is another less painful way (for both) to accomplish what keeping the photos accomplishes for her.
6
First thing - we should stipulate that neither of these letters has anything to do with "ethics" - okay --
Dear Abby,
After having been married for a short time, I experienced a moment of indiscretion I exchanged sexual photos with another woman, which I kept on my computer and secret from my wife.
My wife found the photos, downloaded them to her phone and confronted me about them. We've gone to marriage counseling and are trying to work things out. I've deleted the photos, but my wife keeps copies on her phone and uses them against me when she's angry with me as a power move.
My wife has been emotionally abusive even before our marriage and I don't think the relationship is very healthy, but feel I should try to make it work. What do you think ?
Signed
Picture Imperfect
Dear Picture,
Both you and your wife have serious relationship issues and probably should have never been married in the first place. The photos you took express your resentments against her, and her keeping the photos express her anger and resentments towards you; and it's obvious the trust required for a healthy marriage does not exist.
It may be time for both of you to count your losses and move on to other relationships.
Dear Abby's answer to the second letter -
Your ex-husband is correct that he cannot post-date the bill. That's insurance fraud, which could result in serious penalties. Plus, you're now risking your own credit by refusing to pay the bill. Pay and get it over with.
12
I agree with the first sentence here-both letters have nothing to do with ethics.
4
Of course LW2 should pay the dentist's bill. She is hardly the innocent party -- she breached her obligation to maintain insurance and then asked the dentist to commit fraud.
Several commenters have suggested that the dentist shares some blame for not asking about insurance. My experience is that most doctors do this, but dentists do not, because dental insurance is far less common than general medical insurance.
7
For the second letter, I have much I would wish to clarify. Based on what is presented it sounds like 1) the stepmother was the regular dentist, 2) no party other than the mother knew if the lapse in insurance, 3) the father booked the appointment without notifying the mother. Based on what is presented, both parents failed to communicate with the other. I'd say the mother is responsible for paying.
If the father regularly books appointments without necessarily notifying the mother and the mother did not address this issue, I'd say she is clearly in the wrong. If the stepmother is the owner of the office I would say it would be courteous for her to only bill supplies if at all, but otherwise why should she be out hundreds for what is someone else's fault?
If I were in the stepmother's shoes and the mother asked me to commit insurance fraud, it would be very difficult for me to then want to help her at all.
5
My husband and I tried dental insurance but dropped it after a few years. The cost only covered a set amount and just 50% of the cost of any surgery. We decided it was a racket and now just keep money in a medical savings account for the twice yearly appointments. I did wonder about $400 for a regularly scheduled appointment. There is something very fishy going on here. If I were the LW, I would question the initial charges and definitely switch dentists.
29
"Professional courtesy" is itself unethical. Physicians and dentists are well compensated in our current system, despite the protestations of some. This "courtesy" cost-shifts onto others and harms the collective and especially the neediest. Medical professionals are already advantaged by virtue of knowledge of medicine, of medical professionals and of the "system". Medical professionals providing financial advantage to family members or colleagues is unethical. It is striking how many comments here suggest otherwise.
In anticipation of comments directed at me: I am NOT expressing support for the dentist stepmother or the father. Or the mother, for that matter. IMO concern for the child should be paramount so the bill should be paid pronto, and the adults should behave like adults and discuss privately, with mediator if necessary, in order to spare the child distress.
3
Come on. If the mom is expected to pay for the visit then she should have been at least consulted before it was scheduled. And a dentist who won't work on her stepkid for free is a horrible person, especially if they sent the bill to a collection agency. She should pay because she's only hurting herself by not doing so. Her credit rating is sinking even as I type. The letter of the divorce agreement may be on their side, but let's not pretend that her ex and his wife have an ethical leg to stand on.
45
The thing about working on the stepkid for free is that (a) the stepkid isn't the one paying for the stepkid's visit; the stepkid's mother (dentist's husband's ex) is paying for it, and (b) it's not made obvious that the kid's stepmother was the dentist that the kid saw. Focusing on (a), should the dentist eat the cost for other staff, supplies, etc. for the work on the stepkid? If so, why? Should the dentist also not charge the dental coverage for work on the stepkid? If so, why?
The only way out for the mother is if the visit was made then specifically to stick it to her, and/or if the cost of the visit was inflated. If this was a regularly scheduled visit (often made months ahead of time), and the price was the same as any other person, the mother's SOL.
3
First case:
they should get divorced, and he should enter therapy to help prevent him from getting into another relationship like this one. It's hard to say anything about the wife, because we don't hear her side of things.
Second case:
the husband is being nasty and vindictive. The step-dentist should stop billing the mother. -- This is pure nastiness on the side of the second family.
28
In regards to LW#2-- It sounds like the father and step-mother cooked up a scheme to scam the mother ($400 for an exam? Even without insurance, most dentists would not charge more than $150 or less, on average--I know, I've priced them.) Or else they were just plain lazy about checking the insurance.
Now that I have insurance, I also know how difficult it is to even confirm if the office does take my particular insurance. I went through a few bad experiences where the dental offices assured me they took my insurance, but when I got there for the appointment, they ran my card through their system and "discovered" they couldn't honor my insurance after all.
LW#1: It sounds like he just wasn't into commitment to begin with if he had an affair early into the marriage. Yet he wants to blame the wife for some nebulous "abuse" before, during, after. Why stay married to begin with, especially if there are no children involved? He needs to quit playing the martyr role and move on. His affair, his fault, no excuses. It doesn't sound like the wife is getting anything out of the relationship, either.. Better for both parties to cut their losses.
10
He took her to see the dentist when he knew (and was irritated) that she didn't have dental insurance? What a charmer! Of course she wouldn't bother to have dental coverage if she was reasonably sure her unemployment would be so short. It's rare to have dental emergencies; also, her stepmother is a dentist, and it's also totally reasonable to assume that, should an emergency happen, she would take care of her stepdaughter at a low cost. I know several medical professionals who take care of their family, friends, and even friends of family members for very low cost. That a person wouldn't do this for their stepchild - and that they'd even force an unnecessary appointment purely to milk the mother for money - is pretty fairy tale, Evil-Stepmother (and evil Ex-Husband) territory. The writer has every right to view this as purposeful and vindictive.
Pay the bill, just to end it. Then, find your kids a new dentist. I would even consider discussing with a lawyer about creating specific agreements about informing her before any doctors appointments. If it's part of the agreement that the mother pays for the insurance, she should absolutely have the right to decide whether appointments with medical professionals are necessary in non-emergency situations.
28
They can both agree to change an obviously unhealthy relationship or he can change it by exiting. Her anger is understandable; nurturing and feeding the anger is not. She's acting out her anger with the phone when it would have been easier to spray paint it on the living room wall. Boy, there's nothing like a really good, and completely, justified grudge... If she is unable to move on, even with professional assistance, then he may be forced to move on solo. It's absolutely his fault, but every punishment has to have an end point, and this looks like a life sentence of flagellation. If she is unable to resist bringing this up *frequently*at all sorts situations, because she's so 'right' and he's so (monstrously and terribly) 'wrong', it will finally destroy their union. Sometimes bad actions break up good relationships, but this one may not have been very good from the start. That does not excuse him in any way, but maybe they both chose the wrong partner.
Dentist: Mom should have told dad that the insurance was in lapse and not schedule anything for whatever the waiting period was. Sounds like lots of unresolved issues there being acted upon with this dental bill, which truly could use a friends and family discount. We assume Dad is making timely support payments.
9
If this case of the “unpaid dental bill,” and I’m inclined to side with the mother, is happening after this couple has been divorced for “many years,” I shudder to think of what other conflicts have arisen over that time. That even with the passage of time, these adults still harbor such animosity against each other that one side sics a collection agency on the other for $400 of care benefitting one of their children, is sad and destructive for all concerned.
16
Good grief, the ex husband & step mother dentist are both creeps. Mother may rightly have to pay the bill but I would definitely insist on changing dentists. Office should always be verifying coverage before performing services. It also seems $400 is a very high charge for a dental checkup, it is unlikely an insurance company would cover inflated fees.
This situation of causing unnecessary expense & stress is bad for the child/children.
38
I wonder what effect this had on the dentist's daughter when her own father used her as a weapon against her mother? He did have the legal right to do this, but his daughter will remember that he preferred revenge against her mother rather than paying the bill himself (he is her father, right?)
Is the daughter of the dentist is aware that a collection agency is now the latest episode in this unfortunate story of a father's lack of love for his daughter?
I suggest the dentist's ex use another dentist for her daughter, and not give the name of that dentist to her ex.
7
"Given that you are in charge of medical insurance, you could reasonably think it odd that your child was taken for a dental visit without your knowledge." Gee, you think?
If the mother is expressly responsible for the child's health insurance, then she should be the one making the appointments and choosing the providers, barring emergency situations. The ex-husband should of course get to have input on who to take the kid to, but to do so without checking with the mother first is entirely unacceptable.
For various weird American reasons, dental coverage is often entirely separate from regular medical coverage, it is frequently more convoluted than regular health insurance (if such a thing is possible!) and it is often not even worth the trouble. Perhaps that's different for kids' insurance, but for adults 2 visits a year is usually going to cost less than a year's dental insurance premiums. Not having dental coverage for a brief period is neither unreasonable nor unusual.
A responsible dental office would have asked beforehand what insurance plan the child had, or would the bill be paid out-of-pocket. A REASONABLE ex-husband would have checked with his ex-wife first to find out what the coverage was. And a responsible dentist would have pointed out that generally, doctors do not treat members of their own family and referred the kid to another practice entirely. (stepdaughter counts as family, no matter what the hard-hearted may say)
The lady's ex-husband is a jerk.
34
Both of these situations are too messed up to give ethical advice on. Both questioners need serious therapy. The first guy in particular, geez what a piece of work. If you've only been married a few years and you were sending sexy pictures to some other woman, news flash, your wife may be vindictive, but she's rightly not going to trust you again for quite some time if ever. This is the issue, not the "ethics" of her keeping the pictures. The second letter writer also has many unresolved issues with her ex that are not about ethics.
9
The real ethical issue with the dentist thing is the messsage it sends the child to see that neither parent proactively wants to pay for her care. Neither parent comes out smelling like a rose here.
5
Great line: "It’s often said that holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. "
5
It sounds like she has a hard time moving on and forgiving, and is determined to punish you repeatedly for your transgression. I would say, having exited my own relationship recently, that this relationship is already over, and is only sustained by how difficult it really is to separate from someone you love, or loved. I have found, late in life, that sexual compatibility is not something that can be counted on to last, and it also sounds like that might have been the case here. To all couples out there, do not take your sex life or the sexuality of your partner for granted, make sure it stays healthy and happy for both of you! If you keep connected, it will be easier to solve those other problems. Don't wait for unicorn moments!
2
This is nonsense about the dental bill--the husband's new wife should have done the work on his children for free of course. Life isn't always about what is legally right,; it is about what is morally right. I don't know what kind of man wouldn't be forced to pay for half his kids' healthcare but the court should have made him pay half of the health insurance. Morally, legally, and equitably he may well be liable in my view--but especially morally--The husband is being completely disingenuous and should have consulted his ex-wife before taking the child to his new wife's practice; If the ex-wife is going to pay she gets a choice as to when and where the kid is brought. I don't at all agree with the conclusions reached by the commentator--they are weak even from a legal perspective and amoral--time to make people belly up to the bar and be fair.
10
Should the dentist also not charge for work on the stepchildren if dental coverage did not lapse? Who should foot the bill for all the real expenses to the dentist (staff, materials, etc.)? The mother is responsible for covering medical care for the children. If she let that care lapse, all she can really fight is the amount of the bill, unless she knows that the visit was specifically on that day to spite her. Treating the children for free isn't a gift to the children, it's a gift to their mother (or dental coverage bought by their mother).
1
For the first case, please get divorced now. Sounds like no children involved. I have been in a similar situation with never being forgiven. I did not cheat or have pictures, but anything wrong I did in the past was pulled out to beat me over the head in times of recriminations.
It seems obvious the 2 of you have serious and difficult issues. Find somebody more compatible. It will get worse and end.
9
LW1 don't see this as an ethics issue but one for couples therapy; LW2 - you are responsible; asking any Dental Office to lie to your insurance company is not ethical , putting your child in the middle of adult issues is not ethical, not keeping to your legal agreement is not ethical.
1
What an astounding shift of blame: LW1 deeply hurt his wife and abused her trust, and yet she is the one emotionally abusing him? Even if the reader is incredibly generous and entertains the notion of him having been emotionally abused "before and during" the affair, why in the world did he then remain in the marital commitment while being dishonest on the side? Maturity and self awareness is the issue here, not ethics.
10
Even though one is married to a dentist sounds like they’re all poor.
2
Is the first person really contrite enough to understand how his wife really feels? Does he understand that he must do more to help his wife feel secure in her marriage to him? Thinking of a sickness like sexual addiction, has the husband gone through the 12 steps thoroughly? He is acting like her keeping the photos is the same as what he did. Sounds like immaturity, self-centeredness, and lack of understanding what his wife went through.
7
How long was the lapse in dental coverage? How much did the child's mother save by not buying dental coverage? Might help to put the numbers in perspective.
Full premium of my own dental coverage for "Employee plus children" is a wee bit over $50/month; which is about $25/month more than "Employee only". Not sure how that compares to the individual market. Using my numbers, an eight-month lapse would save $400 if a package covering the mother and the children is considered; 16 months if only the marginal extra cost for the children is considered. I suspect the individual market is a bit higher so the "break-even" durations would be lower.
In terms of the stepmother dentist - my father was a dentist and professional courtesy was often extended to family members and to family members of deceased dentists. It seems quite telling that at the least, the stepmother could have offered the services "at cost", meaning her cost, but chose not to. In custody issues the letter of the law is often followed, just to further twist the knife - even when simple "courtesy" would be so much more beneficial to the child.
127
I feel like taking a co-parented child for medical treatment without knowledge of both co-parents is in breach of the divorce agreement, or the unwritten components of such. If dentistry falls within the realm medical treatments, like an abortion does, then the two parents should have at least known the treatment was being scheduled and when. If a child needs winter or sports clothing and the expense is shared, or the agreed-upon responsibility of ONE parent, that one parent or both parents should have an opportunity to be involved in the decisions. I'm surprised that the parent who is paying for 100% of the expense isn't making the appt or being advised that an appt is necessary.
69
I wholeheartedly agree. A dental visit, unlike a medical emergency, is generally scheduled. And if the mom is the arbiter of all things non-emergency, as should be the case if she is expected to pay for everything, then an unscheduled visit to his own mom's dental practice sounds more spiteful than necessary on the ex-husband's part. And unless he gets a grip and plays fair, he will be in large part to blame for extra emotional damage to his own daughter. Some great father that is. Yes, when twisting the knife that extra half-twist is more important than his own daughter's mental health, then something is dreadfully wrong. Of course, the mom does have to accept some responsibility for not keeping her ex up to date on their insurance needs and coverages, but one single day's worth of lapse is hardly something to write home about...or to complain about. If the mom can easily afford it, she should just pay the bill...even if it stings to do so. The ex and his mom are building up negative karma points by this underhanded, discourteous display of vengeful, spiteful price gouging and petty parenting (and, worse, grandparenting), but that will ultimately have to end up being a costly lesson in non-communication. Next time, I'll bet she keeps informed on her daughter's needs (as her hex sees it), and up-to-date on her insurance coverages, for both of their sakes, mother and daughter.
6
I think it’s pretty clear this was done intentionally to stick it to the letter writer. He took the daughter for treatment exactly one day before the dental insurance would cover services? And for $400 worth, so clearly this was not just a cleaning ... yet it wasn’t serious enough to bother telling the other parent about it.
17
Ah. I just re-read the article after seeing another post. I erred in that the dentist must be her ex's WIFE, not his mother. Mentally edit my opinion above accordingly, please.
7
LW2: whether or not the dentist and the ex are being spiteful is one issue. This involves the ex's daughter after all and he and the LW, for that matter, are using the child like a football. The dentist could have extended some professional courtesy; the ex could have stepped up to the plate.
But the action of LW 2 in requesting that the insurance form be post-dated is another, and perhaps more vexing, issue. This is insurance fraud. If the post-dating had been agreed to, the LW would have committed fraud, but so would the dentist. The staff would have been expected to participate through no fault of their own. In what world is this ethical? While the dentist would not likely be sanctioned by licensing authorities for such a small amount, absent other dishonesty, fraud could endanger the dentist's relationship with the insurer in terms of continuing to be included in its network--endangering the dentist's livelihood and professional reputation, as well as possibly negatively impacting other patients with the same insurance whose insurance would no longer cover the services.
The ex is less than a prince in his actions but the LW is unethical and sets a very poor example for her children. Move on...
5
How healthy of a marriage is it if the wife will hold the pictures like a stockpiled arsenal? It’s clear she won’t get over it, which is her prerogative. He sounds sincerely repentant, so he will have to decide if it’s worth staying to try to regain her trust and love, or if it’s time to end it in order to save his own sense of self-esteem and well-being.
Things sound doomed. Maybe that’s the answer right there. Some things can’t be salvaged.
44
Presumably the child is a minor and therefore cannot make a contract and cannot be legally liable for the dental bill.
The mother did not enter into a contract with the dentist and has no legal obligation to pay.
The father is the one who requested the dental services from the dentist and he is the only legally liable party here.
if the dentist pursues the mother she should write a letter, cc'd to the father, saying that she did not request and will not pay for the dental services, that the proper party to bill is the father, and that if the dentist pursues this further the mother will seek assistance from the appropriate state authorities (in my state it's the Consumer Protection Division of the attorney general's office).
226
The mother was responsible for providing dental coverage. She lapsed and an expense was incurred. That puts the burden on her; she is effectively the insurer. Assuming that the father is the one who regularly takes the child to the dentist, and he wasn't acting in bad faith to take his daughter when there was no coverage, she's got no leg to stand on.
4
No, because then they'll just be in court over her violation of the custody agreement.
3
I agree with the advice to the mother. By not purchasing dental insurance for the brief period between coverage, she was betting that the cost to self-insure any dental care would be less than the cost of insurance premiums for the intermediate coverage. I'm not sure whether she won or lost the bet, but it could be a push if the cost of insurance would have been about $400 anyway. She owes the bill to the dentist's office, regardless of who the dentist is.
6
If the mother is responsible for the health insurance, including dental, then she is the one who should have the authority to make the appointments. The husband should have told her before he was bringing the child to the office at the least. He is the one who has not behaved ethically, given that this does not seem to have been an emergency (and even so, contacting the mother would have been the ethical thing to do). I'm not even going to start with soliciting business for his new wife.
I'm not sure how old the child is. Evidently she is old enough to be questioned afterwards about the visit in terms of the mother's insurance. Still, I don't think a child needs to be privy to household financial arrangements.
Legally the mother needs to bite the bullet (hopefully not breaking any teeth) and pay the bill. But I would suggest getting a new dentist. If you're not getting "family rates" there is no reason to stay with this practice.
72
The second issue - there is the 'legal' answer. And then there is the 'reasonable' answer. Sadly, between divorced couples experiencing issues with their children, reasonable-ness is often lacking. For the sake of the children in these circumstances, it is often most useful to look beyond what is strictly 'legal' and try to assist divorced parents to see what is most reasonable.
5
I am a psychologist, so of course am looking at this from a perspective that is a bit different than ethics. I would not have commented except I feel the need to respond to the columnists statement regarding top 10 issues. The wife's vengeful lock screen would definitely be a top priority if this couple were to return to counseling. Repeatedly using old incidents as a weapon of anger and to demean the other is considered not only unproductive but actually a destructive pattern. This is one main reason communication stalls and trust is not re-established when couples have events that need to be dealt with. This is why couples end up having "the same old fight" rather than allowing disagreements and grievances to be mutually understood and resolved. The main goal in couples counseling is that both parties learn the skills to communicate effectively in a way that maintains and builds the bond. It is normal for both parties to have a list of grievances - but repeatedly using old evidence is often a way for the "wronged" party to deflect criticism or meaningful discussion of the other party's grievances as the couple moves forward. The pics gotta go if the relationship is going to move forward.
113
You assume the wife should forgive her husband, and the marriage preserved. Why should she forgive him? Why should the marriage be preserved? He engaged in a sexual relationship with another woman *early* in the marriage? It would've been worse, of course, if the husband had had physical sex with the other woman, but it was nevertheless a sexual relationship. Maybe the wife would be better off leaving.
Also, you seem completely blind to the fact that you've heard only the husband's side of the story! When you're apparently experienced in *couple's* counseling?
Reading between the (husband's) lines, it seems quite evident that the wife cannot forgive him, but hasn't yet gathered the courage and wherewithal to leave.
12
PS: In my (painful) experience, "once a cheater, always a cheater." Since that's a truism, I'm certainly not alone in experiencing this phenomenon.
In light of that, I don't understand why so many therapists work to "save the marriage" after one spouse has cheated on the other. Even if the couple walks in and states that they're there to "save their marriage," it's the therapist's job to offer a benevolent outsider's guidance as to the wisdom of choosing such a course. But the bias always seems to assume, with willful blindness, that the cheater will never cheat again, and to favor "forgiveness," "saving the marriage," and "moving on."
When men are significantly more likely to be the cheating spouse, this practice also looks a lot like sexism.
15
I believe that if the marriage goes on the rocks, which it appears is moving in that direction, she is keeping the pictures as evidence for her divorce. If she were my client and indicating that the marriage was not repairable and that she could not forgive and rebuild trust, I would probably have her talk to an attorney to move forward especially if there are no children. This is a terrible situation for both!
7
The mother should pay the bill unless the father wasn't supposed to make medical appointments without telling her.
If it is difficult for her, she should make payment arrangements for the bill, four hundred at one go can be really tough but fifty for eight months is easier.
4
To the first issue.. have nothing to add on the ethics of forgiveness or the sage response on it not necessarily being transactional...
If you are both continually dwelling in an aggrieved state, that's not a good trajectory. In the book 'Blink' by Malcolm Gladwell, marriage therapists put contempt as the leading factor in a marriage not lasting another five years with a high degree of accuracy. Contempt can be expressed in many large and small ways, even casual dismissals of one another, rolling of the eyes and such.
Regardless of how you both got here at this point, if contempt for each other is a daily pattern and it persists despite your best efforts (including counseling or other marital therapy) then you don't stand much of chance of getting past this.
It's possible to locate the opposite of this, deep loving affirmation of each other, however it will likely require each of you to consistently animate a kind of self-transcendence and surrender that is often only possible as a kind of spiritual work. Best wishes for this path if you can both do it.
10
The father is totally mean spirited regarding the dental bill. Dave in NJ is correct, the dentist should not have even been be treating her step daughter.
But if that rule is broken, how many family members would bill medical services for their own daughter / step daughter? I think only totally mean spirited family members, that is who.
Finally, if the mother is responsible for the health and dental insurance, she should also have the choice as to the medical provider and the date of service, assuming non-emergencies. That is how these things should work, those who pay have the choice of service provider.
I am with the mother on this one. And most definitely find a new dentist for your daughter.
166
Thanks for the reference. I won't guess at particulars of the divorce settlement (i.e. the rights and responsibilities of each parent to the children), but I bet many providers would bill the company providing medical coverage for services provided to their offspring, other relatives, or friends. I doubt they would have much of an issue billing a third party for services (which may be one of the reasons such treatment is frowned upon). And the child's mother is something of a third party in this situation. Billing her husband's ex is even better than billing the HMO/PPO/etc.; the money might be better, AND they get to stick it to the ex!
3
It is very unethical for the dad to be taking the kids to his new wife's dental practice. The only reason for a family member to visit a medical practice owned by parent or step-parent is to have a steep discount to the service or even free.
145
I agree that the dental situation is tricky but am also aware of some other clauses that are in my custody agreement that are in place to protect these incidents. My child is not allowed to be taken for any medical exam without consent of both parents. The other parent is also not allowed to incur any fees over a certain amount without the knowledge of the other parent prior to that visit. I am the custodial parent that is responsible for having my child on my insurance plan, but her father also must split medical expenses pro-rata based on our split of other costs. Your daughter being brought to an exam without your consent/knowledge sounds fishy to me and could be your arguing point.
Finally, as a worker in a medical facility, a child under the age of 18 can not be brought in by one parent and have the "guarantor", or person responsible for the bill, as the other parent. Even if the plan is under your name, we are not allowed to send a bill for services to a parent who is not present. That would be in violation of our billing/registration policy for minors.
I believe these are all important factors. Take another look at your custody agreement and see what the specifics are. However, I would pay the bill immediately and then ask for reimbursement of part of the cost based on not having knowledge of the visit.
197
These are all very good points and I am basically on the side of the mother (being billed 400 from stepmother just seems outrageous).
However, I am curious why the mother is responsible for the health insurance. Is she much wealthier than her ex-husband? Or did she just have much better insurance through her company?
It seems curious that if she was the one financially able to provide health insurance that she would be so opposed to 400 buck bill. (High for a checkup, of course, but relatively affordable in the scheme of today's outrageous health costs.) This makes me assume that the divorced parents play this game constantly.
3
The trauma of sexual ( intimate, relational) betrayal is deep and long lasting. To me, the husband saying he felt emotionally abused by his wife "before, during, and after" the affair is a key insight that he feels like the victim. This role of being the victim keeps his wife from moving on and healing. Saying she keeps the photos to have "power over him" is another clue that he doesn't get it. She most likely keeps them because in a strange way, they make her feel safe. They remind her of how much he traumatized her and she is at the stage in this that she needs that reminder because she is afraid it will happen again if she forgets. Forgiveness is a tricky word in relation to this kind of betrayal. The betrayed is force fed the concept of forgiveness and pressured to forgive and "move forward". Moving forward takes time. This husband should watch "Helping her Heal" by Doug Weiss or read the work of Barbara Steffens.
28
Something tells me that a while has passed since the husband's adulterous phone "sexting" took place. He said that they both went to a marriage counselor, I'm betting for more than just a couple of visits. The wife flat-out resents her husband. It is quite probable that with a wound that deep, she will never heal. The husband should offer a compromise without placing blame; go back to couple's therapy for a last try, with this caveat: it sounds as if he is remorseful and committed to trying to save his marriage, but if his wife simply cannot let it go, then for his own mental health he needs to "cut bait," so to speak. Her wallowing around in deep resentment and maybe self-pity is not fair for either of them. Get over it or get gone. Resentment is a poison that has killed many a marriage, but in this case, if she keeps drinking it, eventually, even he will become ill from it.
There are other kinds of betrayal of your spouse that are as severe as having an affair and long-lasting emotional abuse and control are both examples.
This marriage should be ended now.
8
Thank you! Yes, they remind her to be cautious bc she is afraid it will happen again. (or at least to remind herself of how little he cared for her that he could do such a thing & then actually try to blame her for it!).
Fool me once, as the saying goes...
1
What dentist charges their child for a visit? Same would be true for a step-child. And whose checkup costs $400? Insurance certainly doesn't pay $400.
327
The child's not being charged. The child's mother is being charged. Big big difference in the eyes of the charger.
5
@gmor: They jack up the cost by doing x-rays. Been there.
14
Excellent answer to letter writer 2, which is a difficult standing between understanding what is cordial or polite, and what is ethical. Surely, it would be polite for the stepmother to waive the cost. However, if the stepmother is an employee, and not owner of the practice, she likely cannot ethically do so.
However, the letter writer has already committed two moral and ethical failings. She breached her agreement to maintain health insurance, and she requested that her ex-husband and his wife commit insurance fraud to cover for her breach of agreement.
Sure, it would be nice for the step-mother to cut her a break - as it would be nice for anyone to be cut a break. But to expect someone to cut you a financial break (and thus harm themselves financially in doing so) is an incredibly selfish act.
You took a chance by not buying dental insurance - it blew up in your face. You need to pay the bill.
4
I sure hope that no family member ever ends up owing YOU money. The father was undeniably wrong to take his daughter to an unscheduled and unmentioned dental visit with his WIFE. At the very least, and without considering the ethical failures of the mom--in this part they do not matter--the father had no legal or ethical right to commandeer his daughter's dental checkup. As such, he is entirely responsible for his wife's exorbitant bill. However, if she does choose to pay it, if only for family harmony, then she still should consult their divorce decree to see where she stands. A lapse in judgment should not cost one an illegally billed arm and a leg.
10
In the context of the first letter, it isn't clear what is right or wrong here. If the man has done what he can to atone, has admitted the wrong and "sinned no more" and is not otherwise causing conflict in the marriage, and she still can't forgive him, then the marriage is over and they should both admit it. And yes, what she is doing is blackmail and is wrong.
But it is easy, as the offending party, to THINK that you've done all that you can, when the offended party sees it (rightly) quite differently. Maybe he hasn't really atoned. As you say, his description of their relationship is rather unfortunate. If he has not really changed his ways or acknowledged his fault, she has every right to continue to be offended. But her approach is still blackmail.
Ethically, I think she is wrong, either way. Pulling out the evidence of his wrong doing to embarrass him is not the same as continuing to hold the line on demanding an appropriate change and atonement. It is simply blackmail. It suggests that his sense of being abused may be well founded.
8
To the first question... dump the guy. If he's sending naked pix to a woman in the early years of a marriage it is not going to get better.
139
"The guy" is the one asking what to do...
13
I know - but she might read this, or someone else might be in a similar situation.
18
No, this is all about the woman trying to get an advantage in an emotional situation where the players/participants/partners should be trying to be fair, and courteous, and helpful to each other. Some women could accept an apology and move on. Some won't, for whatever reason. Everyone makes mistakes. In this case the husband cannot "undo" what he did, and she is now trying to "use" that issue, again and again, long after it's expiration date... Now, we could say that the marriage was doomed from the start, but that is a different issue.
15
Um. Sorry I think the ethical thing to for the stepmother to eat the dental cost. She's profiting off her own relatives and that seems questionable. Shouldn't there have been a discussion? Like what insurance do you have? Are you cool with the kids going my new wife? etc.
I think the father and stepmother are very much in the wrong here and dunning her stepchildren's mother for the care of her stepchildren without having first cleared the care with her? Questionable.
Indeed, any other dentist would have insisted on seeing the insurance card before care was given sooo he used his connection to subvert standard practice.
392
A key question that was unanswered is whether or not the father was informed of the change in dental coverage (i.e. lack thereof). Of legitimate but lessor concern is if it was scheduled with the lack of dental coverage in mind. If the father did indeed know, then this may be a case of "sticking it" to his ex (which may in fact be the penalty for a lapse in coverage). The stepmother was the child's dentist before the visit in question, so it is reasonable to not really check the dental coverage; even if asked, the child and patient might not have known about the change. It wasn't "Hey, the child's coverage is lapsed, let's start using you as the dentist!", but may have been "The coverage is lapsed, let's get the visit in now and stick it to my ex" OR simply taking the child to the regularly scheduled appointment without knowing any better.
You say it is wrong for the dentist to profit off her relatives. Is it any more or less wrong to profit off of non-relatives? From the dentist's point of view, the profit is "off of", or from, the child's mother, who isn't a relative. If it is wrong to hit up the child's mother for payment, is it also wrong to hit up the dental coverage for payment for services to the child?
I believe there is some guidance against treating one's relatives, but that isn't a specific issue here because the child's dentist was already her stepmother.
3
It seems that they were already in the care of the stepmother - if this was a routine visit to the dentist they usually see, and it was not unusual for the father to take them to the dentist, and he (and the dentist) had a right to assume dental coverage was in place because the mother agreed that it would be and never told them about the lapse, then I don't think the stepmother has done anything wrong.
That said, it does seem weird to charge your stepchild for dental services . . . . .
15
Patients, and their parents, are responsible ultimately for their insurance coverage - not the provider. While it is nice that a provider checks insurance coverage for a patient, that is simply because it makes the provider's job easier. Patients are expected to know their coverage - not be baby sat by the front desk at every providers' office.
3
Couldn't find any ethical quandary in the first one.
Regarding the dentist: This may very well be a case the child's father sticking it to the child's mother, in an act of bad faith. (If) He knew the insurance situation, he took the daughter to his wife's practice to both incur an expense for his ex-wife and provide revenue/profit to his now-wife's practice. It is not clear if he did or did not know the insurance situation. Separately, I think doctors are not supposed to treat their relatives.
The child's mother's comments are even more worrisome. She says that she asked her ex-husband to ask his wife['s practice] to commit insurance fraud! That is exactly what changing the date of a an office visit would be. So right off the bat, she wins the unethical award. Other questions: Why didn't she tell the daughter about the lack of dental insurance to begin with? Why should she expect the dentist to provide free care (including paying for the staff, materials, etc. that actually do come out of the dentist's pocket - I could see passing on her own piece of the fee)? Why is it wrong to charge her for her daughter's visit when it was known that there was no company insurance? Maybe it was wrong to provide care, but not to charge for care provided.
Seems to me that the $400 bill is the penalty for a lapse in coverage. The only way out would be if the child was taken that day specifically because it was during the lapse in coverage.
23
Why was it wrong? Because medical offices always check for insurance coverage when you come in. If they didn't check, or they knew the daughter wasn't insured at that point, they should have asked about it then.
19
Many times, the check for coverage is just "Any changes?". Depending on what the father and child knew, they may have said no and thought they were correct. Of course, it could have also been a specific effort to spite the ex-wife.
2
The husband is a jerk. The stepmother is a jerk. The Dental office should have confirmed coverage before the visit. They should be on the hook.
9
So - is the first issue - the highly charged after effects of a breach in marriage trust which are haunting both parties - an ethical issue at all? It seems that LW2 is painting his wife is as unethical because she is using old pictures almost as blackmail -- but of course she isn't represented here. LW2 has to clarify his own feelings, values and boundaries; engage again with his wife IF the marriage is worth saving. He is looking for validation and/or vindication from an outside expert, as if he could show an opinion to his wife which would magically change her feelings.
That said, this is fodder for Philip Galanes.
LW2: if the stepmother is part of a group practice, she may have no say at all w/regard to billing practices. Legally the LW is responsible for the charges and will ( has) had c her credit hurt by non-payment. If money is tight, the ideal would be that parents cooperate and share the bill. If they are not cooperative, the obligation falls to the mother - she accepted it years past. Too bad she didn't tell the father that there was a temporary lapse. Agree with the E.
16
Except, as commenter NSH indicates, it's normal practice to validate insurance coverage prior to treatment. It does seem that the dental visit was done 'under the radar', either out of laziness or spite. It seems to me that the ex-husband and the stepmother are at fault. And, if the LW has partial legal custody of the daughter, it could/should be part of that custody to agree on who provides healthcare for the child. If that's not part of the agreement, I would recommend a visit to the lawyer to update the agreement; this is standard practice in co-parenting situations.
22
The writer could pay it off in installments. I believe as long as you are making consistent good faith payments the bill won't go to collection and will eventually be paid in full. The ex husband sounds like kind of a bad faith person.
1
@cheryl Hear hear on the Philip Galanes statement! He is so much more thoughtful (yet impactful tough love) on sketchy male behavior.
2