Just want to say that Asians are too focused on getting good grades and going to to school. But I challenge everyone to look at all the successful people (CEOs, politicians, engineers, doctors and lawyers) are not all from top schools. The most important skill sets that get you to the top are people and communication skills. As smart as Asians are, many of them missed this and many become trapped in the corporate world, despite having all those Phds and MD's from top universities.
47
I hope that Mr. Jia will put aside his disappointment at not being admitted to an Ivy League school and recognize that he will receive a great education at Duke. If this is his greatest disappointment, he is a fortunate young man.
36
Affirmative Action Battle Has a New Focus: Asian- Americans: Anemona Hartocollis and Stephanie Saul
In this weeks edition of The New York Times, I was able to read about a touchy topic in affirmative action in the nations top universities. I am interested to read about this because about this time next year I will be going through the application process for hopefully some highly competitive schools. Unfournatutly my race could end up hurting or helping my admittance into a certain University. This article was interesting because it talked about affirmative action in a new light versus the common idea of white or black. It covers Asian Americans because some top level schools are trying to regulate the amount of Asian- Americans accepted into their University in order to keep diversity. Some of these top level schools are trying to create diversity which is a good thing but it doesn't have to occur at the cost of denying higher level students just because of their race. I was interested to see what degree Asian- Americans were being cut off from these schools and what in the future schools such as Havard will do on this issue.
In this weeks edition of The New York Times, I was able to read about a touchy topic in affirmative action in the nations top universities. I am interested to read about this because about this time next year I will be going through the application process for hopefully some highly competitive schools. Unfournatutly my race could end up hurting or helping my admittance into a certain University. This article was interesting because it talked about affirmative action in a new light versus the common idea of white or black. It covers Asian Americans because some top level schools are trying to regulate the amount of Asian- Americans accepted into their University in order to keep diversity. Some of these top level schools are trying to create diversity which is a good thing but it doesn't have to occur at the cost of denying higher level students just because of their race. I was interested to see what degree Asian- Americans were being cut off from these schools and what in the future schools such as Havard will do on this issue.
12
I'm pretty alarmed by a lot of the comments which suggests that Mr. Jia or Asian-Americans who have similar academic accomplishments are deficient in some special qualities which limit their contributions to the college experience. I am also saddened but not surprised by comments from people who identify themselves as Asian Americans in Ivy League schools who seemed embarrassed by their academic accomplishments.
In terms of outcome, what really is the difference between what the Trump administration and what academic administrators who value holistic admission policies for Asian Americans wants. Two totally different demographics with different philosophies who can justify basic discrimination.
I believe in Affirmative Action and Diversity, but I don't pretend to myself how it is achieved.
In terms of outcome, what really is the difference between what the Trump administration and what academic administrators who value holistic admission policies for Asian Americans wants. Two totally different demographics with different philosophies who can justify basic discrimination.
I believe in Affirmative Action and Diversity, but I don't pretend to myself how it is achieved.
21
Harvard admits about 2000 or so students and ultimately winds up with a class of about 1600 freshmen. If Harvard wanted to, it could fill its dorms with 4.0 GPAs and valedictorians...EVERY year. However, it has NEVER, in my opinion, desired such a class. I graduated from Harvard in 88 and, during my freshman year, took a class at MIT, which is just a few blocks down the street from Harvard. Taking a class at MIT as a freshman provided me a unique opportunity to compare the student bodies. In my mind, MIT's admissions process seemed much more about hard numbers: high GPAs and SAT/ACT scores (notice that MIT is not among the schools being sued for discrimination), whereas Harvard's admissions process seemed to value intelligence but also placed a heavy emphasis on well roundedness in its students and diversity in its student body. The one thing that stuck with me was that the ENTIRE freshman year at MIT was pass/fail to allow 4.0 GPA 'wunderkids' to accept the realization that they may NO LONGER be the smartest person in their class--thereby alleviating stress and, more important, reducing the number of suicides. However, there were no such restrictions placed on me and my Harvard classmates. I have never forgotten this difference. GPAs and SAT/ACT scores are great info, but I believe admission officers should be allowed to look for students who have more to offer than just the highest GPA/SAT/ACT scores.
42
The Asian population represents 5% of the US. Accordingly, the Asian population in selective US colleges should ABSOLUTELY reflect that proportion -- 5!%!
If the Asian population at Harvard University is 22%, that already represents an abundance of admittance -- greater than 4 times the national population of Asians.
The suit has absolutely no merit.
If the Asian population at Harvard University is 22%, that already represents an abundance of admittance -- greater than 4 times the national population of Asians.
The suit has absolutely no merit.
32
So if college admissions (in schools that get any federal grant money) must be 100% based on merit, that means children of graduates and donors will no longer have any preferential treatment whatsoever, right? And then, what about the mix of American vs international students -- there are probably 3-5x as many qualified high school seniors in China and in India, so does this mean Harvard would be obliged to turn away American students and potentially find its student body is primarily non-American? Just asking where this argument could lead, if it's argued based on a "principle".
36
Harvard is a private university. It should be able to invite for admission whoever it wishes for any reason, even if that means admitting nothing but students in the bottom 5% of their classes and even if they are all members of the same ethnic group. I think we should all think carefully about wanting government to have the power to dictate the conduct of private entities. And the fact that Asians are suing Harvard in an effort to secure yet more seats for themselves there, when Harvard already gives them a percentage of seats wildly disproportionate to their percentage of the US population as a whole, is extremely off putting. Harvard doesn't owe Asians anything; the mindset that so many Asians have, that they are entitled to the seats there because of their academic achievements, is really grating. Harvard is saying that getting top grades isn't all they look for in putting a class together; that Asians just don't get this should not be Harvard's problem. I can assure unsuccessful Asian applicants to Harvard that many people of many different ethnicities have been denied admission there. Get over it and move on.
35
How can you possibly call a two-year-old lawsuit—and it's hardly the first of its kind—a “new focus” for the anti-affirmative action crusaders? For so long this anti-diversity movement has tried to win converts by painting itself as pro-Asian American instead. Seems the Times took the bait.
17
From Wikipedia: "While the sons of wealthy Americans had received priority in college admissions throughout the nineteenth century, in the early twentieth century, frustrated by the poor academic performances of their students, elite colleges raised their admission standards. Immigrants—especially the children of Jewish immigrant families—and Catholics and people from modest socioeconomic backgrounds frequently performed well on the new admissions tests and started to garner large numbers of undergraduate seats at top universities, while the number of admissions for wealthy white Anglo-American stock dropped significantly. In response, several Ivy League institutions began an official practice of legacy admissions, designed to reserve large numbers of seats at the top schools for the sons of wealthy Protestant American stock... Currently, the Ivy League institutions are estimated to admit 10% to 30% of each entering class using legacy admissions."
This was done for a social purpose, to "Make America White Again."
Is it so terrible to have a social purpose such as undoing the fruits of past discrimination to Make America Great for all its people? Most decisions that help some hurt others. Building highways favors car owners Tax deductions for mortgage payments (leading to the need for higher overall taxes) but not for renters.
The advantage given in affirmative action will rarely cancel out the disadvantage of not being born white.
This was done for a social purpose, to "Make America White Again."
Is it so terrible to have a social purpose such as undoing the fruits of past discrimination to Make America Great for all its people? Most decisions that help some hurt others. Building highways favors car owners Tax deductions for mortgage payments (leading to the need for higher overall taxes) but not for renters.
The advantage given in affirmative action will rarely cancel out the disadvantage of not being born white.
31
A president who hires his own daughter with no public policy experience as advisor, hires her husband, as advisor, can barely comprehend, grasp, or discuss any public policy questions with any depth, among other limits, preaches to the country about merit in its schools.
and his son in law, Jarred Kushner, has been written about for only getting into Harvard after his parents pledged a gift to the school. An administrator at his high school apparently called him "less than stellar" and was "dismayed at Harvard's decision."
https://www.propublica.org/article/the-story-behind-jared-kushners-curio...
and his son in law, Jarred Kushner, has been written about for only getting into Harvard after his parents pledged a gift to the school. An administrator at his high school apparently called him "less than stellar" and was "dismayed at Harvard's decision."
https://www.propublica.org/article/the-story-behind-jared-kushners-curio...
45
We have to admit that affirmative action has winners and losers. Many colleges and universities apparently deem Asians "too smart" (which is the accusation once used to excuse quotas against Jewish applicants) and limit their numbers in order to provide more spaces for other "races." Limiting the number of "white" applicants disproportionately affects Jews and other "model minorities" with the "white" label. Affirmative Action policies also encourage (bribe?) people of mixed ancestry who are far closer to "white" than any racial minority to falsely claim minority Hispanic or black status as an easy way to get into a desired school. Those of white/Asian ancestry are torn as to whether "Asian" or "white" is the identity more likely to get them rejected.
15
There really are only losers. Asians deal with the brunt of the hit. On the other hand African Americans get lazy as they do not have competition or are simply not advanced enough for the college when they get in. Most affirmative action assisted people drop out of their colleges, especially with the upper tier colleges
16
I have an idea, why don't all you genius's that didn't get into harvard go start your own harvard of meritorious super people. It'll be even better than harvard and you can leave all the harvard losers in the dust! Soon they'll be suing to get into your school and wearing your t-shirts!
16
The school is called Caltech. One at a time, baby.
48
The whole is rigged for the wealthy who send their kids to better schools, hire tutors,and pay for endless test prep sessions. Middle class Asian and Indian will give up luxuries in order to their children special academic advantages. Asian and Indians have better test scores because they do more test prep. They have better grades because they work harder than other minorities and Whites. However, I don't think the 140point tax obtains; an elite school is not going to admit a White or minority student with a 1460 SAT or a 32 ACT with a 3.8 gpa over an Asian with perfect scores and A plus grades.
4
That's a lot of hatred against Asian or Indian Americans. ;-)
The only problem to your argument is the African American kids that Harvard admits with SAT 300 points lower, are also from middle class families, going to better schools, paying for endless prep sessions, with all the luxuries for special academic advantage.
If Affirmative Action is based solely on socioeconomic background, I'm all for it. It is, however, based solely on skin color.
The only problem to your argument is the African American kids that Harvard admits with SAT 300 points lower, are also from middle class families, going to better schools, paying for endless prep sessions, with all the luxuries for special academic advantage.
If Affirmative Action is based solely on socioeconomic background, I'm all for it. It is, however, based solely on skin color.
51
As Asian Stuyvesant and Harvard graduate I am delighted to see this lawsuit go forward. The time for suffering in silence and patient waiting has long past. We need change through legal action.
Blacks were best able to make progress through Civil Rights legislation In the 1960s and Supreme Court decisions (Brown vs Bd of Ed, Loving etc). Asians have faced over a century of legalized discrimination. The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 prevented Chinese from immigrating to the United States. Also, Chinese women were not allowed to enter, and Chinese men were not allowed to marry non-Chinese, resulting in a state sanctioned genocide. In addition, Chinese were not allowed to own land and were forced into ghettos that we now call Chinatowns.
Today we have race based college admissions. Elite colleges will argue that race is one of many factors, but when the data is examined, the racial discrimination is quite obvious. College policies conducted under the smokescreen of "diversity" is just a ploy for racial discrimination.
Many may not be aware that a similar class action suit against the Ivy League, MIT and other elite schools was settled out of court in the 1980s. Harvard agreed to increase Asian admissions from 13% to its current 18%.
I agree with Martin Luther King and hope that my children will be judged by the content of their character (and accomplishments) and not the color of their skin (or race). Fight racial discrimination, end affirmative action.
Blacks were best able to make progress through Civil Rights legislation In the 1960s and Supreme Court decisions (Brown vs Bd of Ed, Loving etc). Asians have faced over a century of legalized discrimination. The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 prevented Chinese from immigrating to the United States. Also, Chinese women were not allowed to enter, and Chinese men were not allowed to marry non-Chinese, resulting in a state sanctioned genocide. In addition, Chinese were not allowed to own land and were forced into ghettos that we now call Chinatowns.
Today we have race based college admissions. Elite colleges will argue that race is one of many factors, but when the data is examined, the racial discrimination is quite obvious. College policies conducted under the smokescreen of "diversity" is just a ploy for racial discrimination.
Many may not be aware that a similar class action suit against the Ivy League, MIT and other elite schools was settled out of court in the 1980s. Harvard agreed to increase Asian admissions from 13% to its current 18%.
I agree with Martin Luther King and hope that my children will be judged by the content of their character (and accomplishments) and not the color of their skin (or race). Fight racial discrimination, end affirmative action.
75
I don't mind as much that Harvard and its cohorts discriminate against Asians so they have a "balanced" student population. What I do mind is when the schools insult our intelligence by claiming that the system is fair and the reason many Asians don't get admitted despite higher grades and scores is because they look at the "whole person." Are they implying that Austin Jia, despite all his qualifications, was somewhat a "lesser person" than his non-Asian classmates with lower scores who did get admitted? Please drop the fig leaf; you are not fooling me.
For what it's worth, my husband and I together hold 3 degrees from Harvard and 1 from Stanford. Despite our children's stellar academic achievements so far (and of course, I think they are wonderful human beings as well), as Asians, we have zero expectation that they will get accepted into Harvard or Stanford - unless perhaps if they receive a Nobel prize while in high school.
For what it's worth, my husband and I together hold 3 degrees from Harvard and 1 from Stanford. Despite our children's stellar academic achievements so far (and of course, I think they are wonderful human beings as well), as Asians, we have zero expectation that they will get accepted into Harvard or Stanford - unless perhaps if they receive a Nobel prize while in high school.
98
In an upcoming battle between the Justice Department and Harvard, both sides seem to be playing identity politics. At least in Harvard’s case, ethnic and economic identity is not the white whale that Justice is fixating on, but rather seems to be just one consideration, along with diversity, merit, athletic skills, rewarding alumni support, and other factors.
One would wish that both Justice and Harvard - and federal and state education agencies and other colleges – could be more creative in promoting their differing visions of fairer and better educational outcomes. Governments could benefit all students regardless their ethnic identity far more by reversing the decline in funding for state university and state college systems than by filing lawsuits against multi-factor admissions processes. Colleges could review their admissions process and reassess the relative weight of tests and extracurricular activities in determining what the nature and role of the “merit” of prospective students. Maybe there should even be a 1% quota for geniuses in the sciences and other disciplines who might be required, because of relatively poor grades or entrance exam scores or other factors, to enroll for their first year at a smaller college (in a variation of colleges that admit students conditioned on their finishing a year at a college in Paris or London), perhaps to be mentored by a young professor in the admittee’s discipline who is a recent Ph.D. from the admitting school
One would wish that both Justice and Harvard - and federal and state education agencies and other colleges – could be more creative in promoting their differing visions of fairer and better educational outcomes. Governments could benefit all students regardless their ethnic identity far more by reversing the decline in funding for state university and state college systems than by filing lawsuits against multi-factor admissions processes. Colleges could review their admissions process and reassess the relative weight of tests and extracurricular activities in determining what the nature and role of the “merit” of prospective students. Maybe there should even be a 1% quota for geniuses in the sciences and other disciplines who might be required, because of relatively poor grades or entrance exam scores or other factors, to enroll for their first year at a smaller college (in a variation of colleges that admit students conditioned on their finishing a year at a college in Paris or London), perhaps to be mentored by a young professor in the admittee’s discipline who is a recent Ph.D. from the admitting school
2
Before even reading this article, I immediately assumed, based on the title, that the "Asian-American" subject would be "Chinese-American." Curious to know what ethnic backgrounds comprise "Asian" in this lawsuit. As a native New Yorker, aka the "Other Asian-American," I am so used to articles in NYT describing people with a Chinese or Korean background as Asian, as if they represent the entire "Asian" population. Call it out as you see it. Perhaps a "Chinese-American" or "Indian-American" lawsuit?
13
Does it really surprise us that qualified Asians are cast aside in this land of "everybody gets a trophy"?
Elizabeth Warren got her Harvard position by checking the Native American box.
Should qualified Asians checked another race box?
Elizabeth Warren got her Harvard position by checking the Native American box.
Should qualified Asians checked another race box?
21
You are factually wrong.
Harvard did not even know Elizabeth Warren was Native American when she got her position.
But perhaps if she had been a Trump child or Jared Kushner she would have been admitted under the special waiver in which rich white students are admitted over much more qualified students of all races who are much more deserving but didn't have a rich parent to buy their seat.
Harvard did not even know Elizabeth Warren was Native American when she got her position.
But perhaps if she had been a Trump child or Jared Kushner she would have been admitted under the special waiver in which rich white students are admitted over much more qualified students of all races who are much more deserving but didn't have a rich parent to buy their seat.
38
Re Elizabeth Warren? Your charge is absurd. She is brilliant. Stop repeating the pernicious nonsense of the alt-right.
27
In order to get into a top private college, Asian Americans must have a SAT score that is 140 points higher than whites, 270 points higher than Hispanics, and 450 points higher than blacks. This is blatant discrimination. While a good GPA and a strong SAT score aren't the only factors in deciding who is admitted and who is not, they play a big role.
A common stereotype of Asian Americans is that while they have good grades and test scores, they lack passion in their extracurriculars and have poor social skills. Obviously, many Asians do not fit this stereotype and do come across ass pleasant and interesting people at their college interviews.
Everyone should be held to the same standard in college admissions, regardless of race.
A common stereotype of Asian Americans is that while they have good grades and test scores, they lack passion in their extracurriculars and have poor social skills. Obviously, many Asians do not fit this stereotype and do come across ass pleasant and interesting people at their college interviews.
Everyone should be held to the same standard in college admissions, regardless of race.
54
Sorry to stun you, NYT, but Jews are still a high-achieving minority.
14
No longer true in top universities.
7
Affirmative action crushes dreams beyond Ivy League colleges. My son grew up in LA in the 1980's and 1990's. Though no one in our family is a cop, at 8 years old my son said he wanted to be an "LAPD cop" when he grew up. He adopted that goal watching TV shows where Los Angeles Police Department was positively portrayed. When he was a Freshman in high school at career day my son got literature touting careers in LAPD. He still wanted to join
Unknown to him US Department of Justice filed a lawsuit against LAPD alleging discrimination against women, blacks and Latinos. The case was assigned to Judge Rosalyn Chapman
By 1995 some voters had grown tired of affirmative action programs by their state and local governments. A group including businessman Ward Connerly circulated a petition to get a proposed law placed on the California ballot banning state and local agencies from adopting or enforcing affirmative action programs. It became Proposition 209 in November 1996
DOJ, ACLU and the control faction on the LA City Council rushed to prepare a Consent Decree that would effectively ban LAPD from hiring more white men for many years. The Judge signed the Consent Decree on Election Day
At age 21 my son applied to LAPD. The recruiter said "Sorry we are not allowed to hire white men." That slight caused profound distress
This week we were watching "Bosch" on TV. I asked my son if he still wished he been allowed to be LAPD. He sighed and said yes in a very sad tone of voice.
Unknown to him US Department of Justice filed a lawsuit against LAPD alleging discrimination against women, blacks and Latinos. The case was assigned to Judge Rosalyn Chapman
By 1995 some voters had grown tired of affirmative action programs by their state and local governments. A group including businessman Ward Connerly circulated a petition to get a proposed law placed on the California ballot banning state and local agencies from adopting or enforcing affirmative action programs. It became Proposition 209 in November 1996
DOJ, ACLU and the control faction on the LA City Council rushed to prepare a Consent Decree that would effectively ban LAPD from hiring more white men for many years. The Judge signed the Consent Decree on Election Day
At age 21 my son applied to LAPD. The recruiter said "Sorry we are not allowed to hire white men." That slight caused profound distress
This week we were watching "Bosch" on TV. I asked my son if he still wished he been allowed to be LAPD. He sighed and said yes in a very sad tone of voice.
22
They could hire no white males? Really?
Something doesn't smell right about this story.
Something doesn't smell right about this story.
33
Admissions need to be based on academic performance and extracurricular accomplishments. Period. Dump the race or ethnicity quotas. If due to economic and social inequity, kids need a boost, it needs to happen at the start of a child's learning experience. Gaming the system to allow poorly performing students into college in the name of diversity doesn't help anyone--not the university's good name, not the qualified students denied entry, nor the unqualified student who too often ends up dropping out before the first year of courses is completed.
34
I completely understand the need for diversity and colleges not wanting one culture to dominate. I also have Asian friends who were adopted at very young age by American parents. Ethnically they are Asian, culturally they are as American as apple pie. It would be silly to consider them Asian simply because of their DNA.
23
Harvard could fill its freshman class with brilliant Asians and the average scores would go up, but the result would not be good for Harvard or the world. (And don't let anybody tell you the test score thing is not mostly genetic.) There is no entitlement that says the kid with the highest test scores get the nod over anybody with lower scores. Admissions people know that you have to be bright enough to do the work at their school, but it is hard to think of any field in which the brightest person is always the best--astrophysics, maybe. I've been interviewing applicants for Yale for decades. I have seen some incredibly bright kids, most with all the boxes checked on their extracurricular list--the box checkers are pretty easy to spot-- who I did not think were very promising. The admissions people tended to agree with me.
Every year I attend a viewing of The Game that a local lawyer hosts in his firm's conference room. Both Yale and Harvard people attend. The older part of the crowd looks like the WASP country club (with a few token Jews). The younger set looks like the United Nations. It is remarkable how much admissions polices have changed over the years. I hope nobody screws up what has been a very effective selection process.
Every year I attend a viewing of The Game that a local lawyer hosts in his firm's conference room. Both Yale and Harvard people attend. The older part of the crowd looks like the WASP country club (with a few token Jews). The younger set looks like the United Nations. It is remarkable how much admissions polices have changed over the years. I hope nobody screws up what has been a very effective selection process.
20
Having done alumni admissions for Duke as well as for medical school at the University of Colorado sometimes it simply comes down to interview skills - some kids really have no idea why they want to go to Duke or Harvard - they show up not knowing much about the school and fail to ask any questions that demonstrate they actually took the time to learn about the school they are applying to - I don't care as much about the perfect ACT score or 11 AP courses as I want to understand how curious they are about life, how passionate they are about their experiences and dreams and how they respond to questions - with a smile and engagement or disinterest and entitlement - and that goes for ANY race or gender - that doesn't matter to me in the least
19
You can totally making policy to favor students with lower economic status. But you should never discrimination based on their RACE.
21
"Harvard penalizes Asian-Americans for their high achievement and gives preference to other minorities," is incorrect. It should be "gives preference to others", which would also include white applicants.
As a 5th generation Japanese American, nothing seems more unfair than America throwing your family into concentration camps, robbing them of their home, land and all possessions; being used as canon fodder in WWII in a segregated all Japanese-American unit and then on top of all that, being denied entrance to ivy league schools because of your Asian ancestry. The injustice just never seems to end!
As a 5th generation Japanese American, nothing seems more unfair than America throwing your family into concentration camps, robbing them of their home, land and all possessions; being used as canon fodder in WWII in a segregated all Japanese-American unit and then on top of all that, being denied entrance to ivy league schools because of your Asian ancestry. The injustice just never seems to end!
35
I am an Asian American who attended an Ivy League school. It's not all it's cracked up to be. It's just a nice
to have and my life is hardly different than most people who didn't attend an Ivy League. Heck, it might even be worse because I've amounted to absolute mediocrity and a fancy degree couldn't get me out of working with morons on a daily basis.
This kid has an epic chip on his shoulder, lacks self awareness, and unfortunately doesn't get that life isn't fair. There is much more to life than where you went to school, and then there is always grad school which will generally accept you if you can pay for it.
to have and my life is hardly different than most people who didn't attend an Ivy League. Heck, it might even be worse because I've amounted to absolute mediocrity and a fancy degree couldn't get me out of working with morons on a daily basis.
This kid has an epic chip on his shoulder, lacks self awareness, and unfortunately doesn't get that life isn't fair. There is much more to life than where you went to school, and then there is always grad school which will generally accept you if you can pay for it.
24
This whole debate is so sickening and petty. Let the aggrieved get a life outside of his ridiculous and blatant social climbing or let him go to city college.
19
Leave it to Alan Dershowitz, Harvard law professor to find the 2 arguments that he can defend and to excuse the elephant from the room. Hocus: Discriminating against Asian Americans to make room for other minorities doesn't make sense. Really, Mr Dershowitz, divide and conquer? Mr Jia should pursue his dream, but I don't know why anyone would want to aspire to these sick tricks of a Harvard man.
Pocus: "Generically", whites have not been the subject of discrimination. Really, Mr Dershowitz, other than punching your "specific" white discrimination card (sick), how is this relevant? Poof: Where is your argument concerning the overwhelmingly successful admission of those whose only recognizable merit was money and privilege? Dershowitz? Dershowitz?
Pocus: "Generically", whites have not been the subject of discrimination. Really, Mr Dershowitz, other than punching your "specific" white discrimination card (sick), how is this relevant? Poof: Where is your argument concerning the overwhelmingly successful admission of those whose only recognizable merit was money and privilege? Dershowitz? Dershowitz?
7
Mother Harvard is not obligated to accept anyone in particular. A very high percentage are first born, should we now go to birth order? For utterly brilliant folks, The University of Chicago is welcoming where fun goes to die. Nobody ever earned the right to go to Harvard, she just picks her children as she likes.
9
The authors correctly quoted the first number 140, but why would they omit the later 2 important numbers (270, 450)? Thinking hard, my feeble brain gets dizzy.
"A 2009 Princeton study showed Asian-Americans had to score 140 points higher on their SATs than whites, 270 points higher than Hispanics and 450 points higher than blacks to have the same chance of admission to leading universities."
"A 2009 Princeton study showed Asian-Americans had to score 140 points higher on their SATs than whites, 270 points higher than Hispanics and 450 points higher than blacks to have the same chance of admission to leading universities."
20
My daughter is part Cherokee Indian but does not have a Tribal Number. Her Native American Grandmother died in 1800. The white Grandfather married a white spinster women and they hid the Children in the Barn when the census workers came around. They declared them "white" to avoid them being sent to Oklahoma on the trail of tears. I have photos that clearly indicate they and their descendant are Native American. My daughter has the facial structure and hair texture that indicates her heritage. Our Native American enrollment rates are so low, because that is the only ethnic or race which colleges require you to have a tribal number. I am not requesting part of the Casino money or even part of the "Free Healthcare the Treates entitle Native Americans to" ( oops The Republicans and Trump forgot about those in their Obamacare repeal schemes)
The whole current presence schemes and how scholarships are given out to black and Hispanic students aren't fair. My younger daughter just for the Hell of it decided to check Hispanic on her PSAT application. The response we have gotten from colleges has been amazing. The way my daughter justifies it is that you know my Grandmother was adopted and does not know who was her biological father, my hair is brown and wavy. She was born in NYC, I assume her father was Dominican or something that makes me Hispanic. Ok. Whatever gets you scholarships and accepted girl.
The whole current presence schemes and how scholarships are given out to black and Hispanic students aren't fair. My younger daughter just for the Hell of it decided to check Hispanic on her PSAT application. The response we have gotten from colleges has been amazing. The way my daughter justifies it is that you know my Grandmother was adopted and does not know who was her biological father, my hair is brown and wavy. She was born in NYC, I assume her father was Dominican or something that makes me Hispanic. Ok. Whatever gets you scholarships and accepted girl.
7
My kids have roughly as much Cherokee in them as yours -- also documented.
It would be pathetic for my family or yours to try to trade on that.
Our kids lived in the mainstream and experienced nothing of oppression or racial/ethnic marginalization.
It would be pathetic for my family or yours to try to trade on that.
Our kids lived in the mainstream and experienced nothing of oppression or racial/ethnic marginalization.
10
Do you really think minorities are taking their spots... Sorry White kids with hookups are getting those spots. When George W Bush can get in with a C+ average who do you think is really getting the preference
22
I'm Asian American. The implicit premise of this lawsuit is that affirmative action and caps on groups are the same thing. That is not the case. One is about encouraging and the other is about discouraging participation in a college.
Why does Asian American success have to be based on nudging out other minorities? Perhaps cutting legacy admissions (and people who get in through large family donations like Jared Kushner) would make some room.
Second, the article treats Harvard as if it is the only route to a successful life. I'm pretty sure a degree from Duke is not going to hold anyone back in life. Harvard will never have enough spots to accommodate all qualified applicants. What can we do bring some sanity to the college valuation?
Lastly, part of the mission of many liberal arts colleges is to expose students to different points of view and broaden their perspective. I think that's a valid mission. They need diversity to do that. I'm sad that Asian Americans are being used as a wedge against this laudable mission.
Why does Asian American success have to be based on nudging out other minorities? Perhaps cutting legacy admissions (and people who get in through large family donations like Jared Kushner) would make some room.
Second, the article treats Harvard as if it is the only route to a successful life. I'm pretty sure a degree from Duke is not going to hold anyone back in life. Harvard will never have enough spots to accommodate all qualified applicants. What can we do bring some sanity to the college valuation?
Lastly, part of the mission of many liberal arts colleges is to expose students to different points of view and broaden their perspective. I think that's a valid mission. They need diversity to do that. I'm sad that Asian Americans are being used as a wedge against this laudable mission.
34
If Mr. Jia wants to be treated like an individual I suggest he not treat big-name schools interchangeably. Applying to 14 schools is ridiculous. Applying to these 14 even more ridiculous. Brown and Cornell have little in common. Did he write the same essay for all 14 schools? Because I really doubt he wrote 14 different essays that were equally tailored to each school.
Colleges place a great deal of emphasis on finding good fits with their students, just as many employers do now too. I applied to three schools for undergraduate work, carefully crafting an essay for each. I got into all three. For graduate school, I applied to one program, perhaps the most competitive in the country for my field, and I was accepted and given a large scholarship. I was a perfect fit for that program. I knew it and they knew it.
I'm white, btw, and the students in that grad program were from diverse racial, socioeconomic and geographical backgrounds. It was the best experience of my life.
Maybe if Mr. Jia had not taken such a cookie-cutter approach he would have found the right niche. Maybe he has at Duke.
Colleges place a great deal of emphasis on finding good fits with their students, just as many employers do now too. I applied to three schools for undergraduate work, carefully crafting an essay for each. I got into all three. For graduate school, I applied to one program, perhaps the most competitive in the country for my field, and I was accepted and given a large scholarship. I was a perfect fit for that program. I knew it and they knew it.
I'm white, btw, and the students in that grad program were from diverse racial, socioeconomic and geographical backgrounds. It was the best experience of my life.
Maybe if Mr. Jia had not taken such a cookie-cutter approach he would have found the right niche. Maybe he has at Duke.
18
Are you kidding? For undergraduates, Brown and Cornell have much in common. With each other as well as with the rest of the Ivy-level schools.
7
Harvard '83, no I'm not kidding. It's clear you think all the Ivys are alike and they're not. Brown, in particular, has always gone its own way, with iits nnovative grading system and New Curriculum. Cornell, at more than twice the size, is known for its conservativsm (not politically, but academically). No way would someone who really understands the culture of these two schools apply to both, nor would they flourish at both.
13
I think most would agree that a person's academic scores should not be the only yardstick by which he/she is judged for admission into an Ivy League university. All of the other qualities others have mentioned here - creativity, social awareness, independent thinking, etc - are important in the final assessment, and should therefore be considered.
However, unlike SAT/GPA scores, these other qualities cannot be objectively assessed, so one is left in the hands of the interviewer(s). These interviewers are human beings - some days they're more generous, other days not so much, perhaps because they've just had an altercation with an Asian cab driver. Some days they value a particular response much more; other days, not so much. And, each of these interviewers will differ in their own views.
In other words, it's a lottery. The evaluation of non-academic qualities and the POTENTIAL for their further advancement within the university are completely subjective, which is why you have SAT/GPA scores.
I believe it is for this reason that those who missed out can truly begrudge the system. The admissions process needs to be much more objective if it's to escape being labelled discriminatory. I don't know how you would do this - perhaps setting and communicating the weightings of each quality assessors are looking for (in advance) might be a (small) step in the right direction.
However, unlike SAT/GPA scores, these other qualities cannot be objectively assessed, so one is left in the hands of the interviewer(s). These interviewers are human beings - some days they're more generous, other days not so much, perhaps because they've just had an altercation with an Asian cab driver. Some days they value a particular response much more; other days, not so much. And, each of these interviewers will differ in their own views.
In other words, it's a lottery. The evaluation of non-academic qualities and the POTENTIAL for their further advancement within the university are completely subjective, which is why you have SAT/GPA scores.
I believe it is for this reason that those who missed out can truly begrudge the system. The admissions process needs to be much more objective if it's to escape being labelled discriminatory. I don't know how you would do this - perhaps setting and communicating the weightings of each quality assessors are looking for (in advance) might be a (small) step in the right direction.
3
The other big 'victims' of affirmative action are female students. Without preferences, they would dominate campuses to a greater degree than they do already.
I believe that diversity is a valid goal for institutions of higher learning. If they are grooming tomorrow's leaders, we need to have everyone represented. I think that diversity should extend, as well, to geographic location and socio-economic status.
But I'm a little concerned, to be honest, with the focus on grades and test scores. We can build, or breed, robots to score perfectly on tests and to be model students, but I'm not sure that's what we need in leaders or in innovation. Certainly, some level of competence in these areas is important, but other things, many of which are not evidenced by those metrics or even by 'extra-curricular activities' are, I think, needed.
It is, at base, unfortunate that we have to categorize and grade our kids.
I certainly understand the drive exhibited by many Asian families, and Jewish families, for education at the highest levels. Discrimination is real and, particularly in the Asian and Jewish communities, education is seen as a means of overcoming it. "They may deny your 'leadership skills' but they can't deny your understanding of general relativity."
I believe that diversity is a valid goal for institutions of higher learning. If they are grooming tomorrow's leaders, we need to have everyone represented. I think that diversity should extend, as well, to geographic location and socio-economic status.
But I'm a little concerned, to be honest, with the focus on grades and test scores. We can build, or breed, robots to score perfectly on tests and to be model students, but I'm not sure that's what we need in leaders or in innovation. Certainly, some level of competence in these areas is important, but other things, many of which are not evidenced by those metrics or even by 'extra-curricular activities' are, I think, needed.
It is, at base, unfortunate that we have to categorize and grade our kids.
I certainly understand the drive exhibited by many Asian families, and Jewish families, for education at the highest levels. Discrimination is real and, particularly in the Asian and Jewish communities, education is seen as a means of overcoming it. "They may deny your 'leadership skills' but they can't deny your understanding of general relativity."
11
The merit of an individual student should be based on how well he does in relation to the environment, read school, he comes from.
There are many students that come from enriching environments, such as AP classes, SAT practice classes and additional tutoring that can do extremely well in SATs and other testing.
I do not consider them to have more merit that disadvantaged students that manage to overcome extremely difficult circumstances to raise to the top of their high school classes.
There is certainly something to be said for promoting diversity in our professional classes. After all, Hispanics and blacks would certainly benefit from an increased ability to find doctors and lawyers to serve them.
There are many students that come from enriching environments, such as AP classes, SAT practice classes and additional tutoring that can do extremely well in SATs and other testing.
I do not consider them to have more merit that disadvantaged students that manage to overcome extremely difficult circumstances to raise to the top of their high school classes.
There is certainly something to be said for promoting diversity in our professional classes. After all, Hispanics and blacks would certainly benefit from an increased ability to find doctors and lawyers to serve them.
7
It would be interesting to see a study that includes the effect of "legacy" on the disparity between white and asian admissions rates, assuming that legacy students are predominantly white.
Perhaps this is the important factor in what are being called "illegal quotas," and the rightful target of legal action - instead of targeting other affirmative action policies, as the current suit seems to.
Perhaps this is the important factor in what are being called "illegal quotas," and the rightful target of legal action - instead of targeting other affirmative action policies, as the current suit seems to.
6
There was another news article put out a while back that dove into Harvard's admissions process "formula". The conclusion was that rather than heavily taking into account scores, grades, or even race, it took more into account supposed characteristics the contrived formula deemed to be telling of ones who would not only be high-earning but also high-giving individuals (and hence would profit the university either financially or by association). Their conclusion: white outspoken males with large egos. Let's not be naive as to what this is really about in the end for them - money. It's a sad truth.
10
Admissions are hard.
The Ivy league could arbitrarily pick a class from the 'top 50%' of their applicants with their >90% rejection rate and have a similar class by numbers to that which they have now. So how to distinguish? Should you? Do you want just the top numbers? Verbal SATs worth much less than Math? How can you weigh A+grades at a high performing school with A+ from an inner city school? Is life history important? What is the conversion grades to SATs? Did my 'first college in family' status benefit me then, should it now? From Princeton's site:"Of the applicants, 12,435(of 31K) had a 4.0 grade point average, and 13,850 had scores of 1,400 or higher on the two sections of the SAT." Those that assert that admissions depend only on the numbers must realize that the discriminant power of SATs and GPAs in this setting is useless. (Not discrimination)
Disclaimer: I attended Princeton 45 years ago as a 'white first college student in the family' from a well to do white community with excellent grades/SATs. Dad inherited land which we otherwise could not afford. I left PU with an AA best friend,now a prof at a small white college in the south, a white PhD roommate from the lower middle class now teaching at a DC university, a ChemE who is also a reserve Brig. Gen. ret. What a crew. My points beat them all, but not many others. Me I'm only a physician. My step kids did not have it to be legacies. Thank god we all did not go just by the numbers.
The Ivy league could arbitrarily pick a class from the 'top 50%' of their applicants with their >90% rejection rate and have a similar class by numbers to that which they have now. So how to distinguish? Should you? Do you want just the top numbers? Verbal SATs worth much less than Math? How can you weigh A+grades at a high performing school with A+ from an inner city school? Is life history important? What is the conversion grades to SATs? Did my 'first college in family' status benefit me then, should it now? From Princeton's site:"Of the applicants, 12,435(of 31K) had a 4.0 grade point average, and 13,850 had scores of 1,400 or higher on the two sections of the SAT." Those that assert that admissions depend only on the numbers must realize that the discriminant power of SATs and GPAs in this setting is useless. (Not discrimination)
Disclaimer: I attended Princeton 45 years ago as a 'white first college student in the family' from a well to do white community with excellent grades/SATs. Dad inherited land which we otherwise could not afford. I left PU with an AA best friend,now a prof at a small white college in the south, a white PhD roommate from the lower middle class now teaching at a DC university, a ChemE who is also a reserve Brig. Gen. ret. What a crew. My points beat them all, but not many others. Me I'm only a physician. My step kids did not have it to be legacies. Thank god we all did not go just by the numbers.
5
If ever there were a group that deserves the description of privilege, it would be Ivy League graduates. No matter one's station going in, they come out with the closest thing in our society to a pass for everything.
We should have affirmative action for state university graduates.
We should have affirmative action for state university graduates.
3
Please do not take ivy schools too seriously. America is a resourceful country. You can make a good living if you work hard. Also a STEM student from an average school probably is better educated and qualified than a Ivy graduate who majors in humanities. I recall one girl got a degree in Spanish from MIT, and even she found it amusing. What was a point of getting such a degree?
7
Regarding Native Americans, I *do* believe in some sort of quota and would be for working to increase the number of entrants through better access to quality high school education. The Ivy's and other school are after all, located on land stolen from them. The remaining Native Americans would be wealthy if these schools and others paid for leases on their lands as perhaps they should.
Regarding other students, I believe that those who have had to work in high school while saving money for college should be valued for their work experience and drive and should have a priority over those who come from families of greater means. Passion should be rated highly.
Regarding other students, I believe that those who have had to work in high school while saving money for college should be valued for their work experience and drive and should have a priority over those who come from families of greater means. Passion should be rated highly.
2
Comparing the Asian-American and Asian admissions percentages of private colleges and universities against the University of California system is not valid. Besides the high percentage of Asian-American students in California to begin with, there is the incentive of lower tuition. Many of them - and their parents - rightly believe that they can obtain an equivalently high-quality education in the U.C. system to what they would have to pay an exorbitantly high price for - both in tuition and expenses - elsewhere.
3
If you are middle class, the Ivies are much cheaper than the UC system because they are quite generous with needs based financial aide.
4
This piece reminds me of another thing in the west coast. Not long ago, the California community college system considered waiving the requirement of algebra, which is one of the simplest sub-fields in math, for non-STEM student. The purpose was to promote human rights. The country becomes more and more interesting.
4
seems some of this can be solved by drastically limiting immigration. this country is being torn apart by divisions that probably can never be healed even with the passage of time. with global population possibly entering the unsustainable range resources of all kinds including ivy league institutions founded in the 17th century will be available to fewer. my ancestors that were lucky enough to have arrived here did not seek this country out so that their descendants could attend elite bucolic campuses although some did, they came here for a better life which many other schools can still provide a path too.
3
Too many commenters want Harvard to be something it is not. Harvard does not exist to grant trophies to the "best" high school graduates in the form of admissions letters. Harvard's proper role is to build and sustain the community that will best fulfill the college's goals.
High grades and scores, extra-curricular achievements and the like are accomplishments in themselves. They do not need to be validated by the Harvard admissions committee.
High grades and scores, extra-curricular achievements and the like are accomplishments in themselves. They do not need to be validated by the Harvard admissions committee.
17
Question 1: Can we agree educating students from disadvantaged backgrounds is a good investment in USA's future? Peter Thiel fans, I am thinking about diverse backgrounds of advantage and disadvantage-not cultural differences.
Question 2: Do you agree with Ayn Rand's fear of "mediocrity in the name of egalitarianism" (leading to me first, since I am better, in this dog-eat-dog market driven suicidal world) or John Steinbeck's vision of "I'm just trying to get along without shoving anybody around."?
This article states that the Harvard student population is 22% Asian-American and the last census data determined the USA general population is 5.6% Asian-American: Harvard already has a admission process that allows a distorted representation of Asian-Americans. The same can probably be said of any other disadvantaged group because they are smart at Harvard!
Students should be admitted based upon many factors, but if only those with advantage are allowed to participate in the Ivy League world, there is no hope for the "have nots".
Question 2: Do you agree with Ayn Rand's fear of "mediocrity in the name of egalitarianism" (leading to me first, since I am better, in this dog-eat-dog market driven suicidal world) or John Steinbeck's vision of "I'm just trying to get along without shoving anybody around."?
This article states that the Harvard student population is 22% Asian-American and the last census data determined the USA general population is 5.6% Asian-American: Harvard already has a admission process that allows a distorted representation of Asian-Americans. The same can probably be said of any other disadvantaged group because they are smart at Harvard!
Students should be admitted based upon many factors, but if only those with advantage are allowed to participate in the Ivy League world, there is no hope for the "have nots".
6
Rarely discussed in reference to affirmative action and the push to increase minority access to Ivy League schools are the real-life experiences of students financially and emotionally unprepared to thrive in an elite, moneyed environment.
Financial aid doesn't cover all the additional expenses of four years of trying to belong; to join fraternities, sororities or other social clubs; to be able to go to parties and weekend trips and summer vacations etc. etc. etc. etc. To be able to go home on term/semester breaks.
This is just one of the reasons why so many black kids on campuses are angry, resentful and flailing. Many of them were very high achievers in mediocre schools; they're entirely unprepared to be not so good in a very high pressure environment.
And many of these kids could thrive at state schools where they can get excellent educations.
The real value of an Ivy League diploma? Lifelong access to the alumni/ae network. That cements social status and work opportunities. That gives you the entrée to environments other equally-well-educated people don't quite ace.
Financial aid doesn't cover all the additional expenses of four years of trying to belong; to join fraternities, sororities or other social clubs; to be able to go to parties and weekend trips and summer vacations etc. etc. etc. etc. To be able to go home on term/semester breaks.
This is just one of the reasons why so many black kids on campuses are angry, resentful and flailing. Many of them were very high achievers in mediocre schools; they're entirely unprepared to be not so good in a very high pressure environment.
And many of these kids could thrive at state schools where they can get excellent educations.
The real value of an Ivy League diploma? Lifelong access to the alumni/ae network. That cements social status and work opportunities. That gives you the entrée to environments other equally-well-educated people don't quite ace.
17
These schools are private schools. They partly depend on alumni donations to keep the schools financially strong. It may be time for Asian-Americans start donating to schools from which they are graduating. The competition among Asians is brutal to get into these schools. The SAT scores don't carry much of a weight, since do not indicate a future success. Grades and the subjects do carry weight more than anything, but it matters from which school you are graduating from for diversity. Otherwise, these universities looks like Thomas Jefferson high in Virginia. Besides fighting over Ivy League admissions aren't worth it. Students can learn from most of the public schools just as well, and they probably know better how to navigate in the society.
3
I teach at a university and have been told, by people at my university and others, that males essentially get affirmative action - admission with lower scores and other accomplishments - because universities want to maintain some kind of "gender balance", partly in the interest of attracting women who don't want to go to mostly female schools. So qualified women are being turned away to admit less qualified men. I will be interested to see if this administration is as interested in going after the unfair advantages bestowed on white men as those bestowed on some racial or ethnic groups.
14
Full disclosure: I am an Asian who went to a top 5 school.
The fundamental misconception of these lawsuits is that numerical test scores and vanilla extracurriculars entitle you to admission to a school that rejects over 90% of its applicants. That premise is very, very false. You can't just check boxes and get into Harvard.
The fact of the matter is that an Asian person who got good scores and grades at a suburban high school and did some very middling extracurricular activities (debate team? tennis captain but not a college level athlete? *yawn*) is a dime a dozen. That kind of background brings nothing to the table that isn't already at a school like Harvard in spades. That kind of background suggests a person who is a "box checker." Harvard isn't just selling a degree, it's selling a student body, and there is an optimal amount of diversity in a student body. Some of the most interesting people in my time in college were those with "low" test scores who had amazing (or amazingly different) life experiences. And that was a critical part of my education. By focusing narrowly on test scores and activities, they are missing entire dimensions of experience and intelligence that contribute to the educational environment.
The fundamental misconception of these lawsuits is that numerical test scores and vanilla extracurriculars entitle you to admission to a school that rejects over 90% of its applicants. That premise is very, very false. You can't just check boxes and get into Harvard.
The fact of the matter is that an Asian person who got good scores and grades at a suburban high school and did some very middling extracurricular activities (debate team? tennis captain but not a college level athlete? *yawn*) is a dime a dozen. That kind of background brings nothing to the table that isn't already at a school like Harvard in spades. That kind of background suggests a person who is a "box checker." Harvard isn't just selling a degree, it's selling a student body, and there is an optimal amount of diversity in a student body. Some of the most interesting people in my time in college were those with "low" test scores who had amazing (or amazingly different) life experiences. And that was a critical part of my education. By focusing narrowly on test scores and activities, they are missing entire dimensions of experience and intelligence that contribute to the educational environment.
28
It is astonishing how many people argue that Affirmative Action is morally and fundamentally wrong when discussing preferential treatment for blacks, but will then stereotype all Asians as having an unfair advantage in the form of "tiger moms" that "American" children must be shielded from.
It just goes to show that, consciously or subconsciously, many of the voices in the Affirmative Action debate are primarily concerned about how their children would fare, not about how American society would be affected.
It just goes to show that, consciously or subconsciously, many of the voices in the Affirmative Action debate are primarily concerned about how their children would fare, not about how American society would be affected.
23
Many Asian American students at the Ivy schools come from privileged (ruling class/Brahmins/elite) background from their respective countries. Some Asian countries were never colonized by outside powers or suffered discrimination. The Asian Americans and African Americans from elite classes with privileged backgrounds should be treated as part of the "majority" for admission purposes. The AA admission policies must be fine-tuned to benefit the the underprivileged minorities and disadvantaged.
4
There is a difference between being smart and being smart enough to get into Harvard and other elite schools. We can assume the other Asian students that make up the 22% that did get accepted, had more compelling stories than Mr Jia. His parents were able to buy him tennis and musical lessons that many students could never afford. He likely paid for SAT prep courses that many students can't afford. But he did not have anything on his resume that distinguished him from the hundreds of other applicants of all races who were not accepted to Harvard. If for example, he worked in a homeless shelter,volunteered at a senior center or tutored disadvantaged students that might have distinguished him from his peers more than getting a higher GPA or few points more on the SAT.
6
This lawsuit may not really be about discrimination against Asian-Americans. Similar arguments were made two years ago by a group of candidates for one of Harvard's governing boards. While they claimed to support Asian Americans, it was clear that their real issue was the number of African Americans and Hispanics being accepted. Further, the leader of the group had a history of complaining that Jews were over-represented in the student body.
Those who would benefit most by a retreat from affirmative action are those currently most under-represented, namely whites. White alumni can no longer assume they can send their children to Harvard. The rate of legacy admissions has declined. But in a race-blind admissions process some factors would favor whites over Asian-Americans, such as geographic distribution and recruitment of athletes in certain sports. Also, frankly, much of Harvard's panache comes from the presence of children of the famous and powerful, and of students whose families have a multi-generational Harvard tradition. Without these members of the student body, Harvard wouldn't have the luster that makes it so appealing to many applicants.
I predict that if fewer blacks and Hispanics were admitted, most of the spaces created would go to whites or internationals, not Asian-Americans.
The efforts to impose a different admissions process on Harvard are at best ideological, at worst self-serving. Asian-American organizations should be careful not to get played.
Those who would benefit most by a retreat from affirmative action are those currently most under-represented, namely whites. White alumni can no longer assume they can send their children to Harvard. The rate of legacy admissions has declined. But in a race-blind admissions process some factors would favor whites over Asian-Americans, such as geographic distribution and recruitment of athletes in certain sports. Also, frankly, much of Harvard's panache comes from the presence of children of the famous and powerful, and of students whose families have a multi-generational Harvard tradition. Without these members of the student body, Harvard wouldn't have the luster that makes it so appealing to many applicants.
I predict that if fewer blacks and Hispanics were admitted, most of the spaces created would go to whites or internationals, not Asian-Americans.
The efforts to impose a different admissions process on Harvard are at best ideological, at worst self-serving. Asian-American organizations should be careful not to get played.
16
Many young people get eliminated for the competition by the second grade. We have to look at that system. The racial disproportionality in cradle to prison statistics is not a fantasy. It has been engineered. Some whites and other ethnic groups have been impacted by this, but for the most part, Indigeneous peoples, Blacks and Latinos are most severely affected.
A GPA beyond 4.0 means you have to have AP courses. Most schools in ghettos and barrios do not even have such courses.
A GPA beyond 4.0 means you have to have AP courses. Most schools in ghettos and barrios do not even have such courses.
4
Some think it is being racist to comment in certain ways to this problem for Asian-Americans, and if they are citizens of this country, imo, they should have equal access to all businesses, including Harvard.
Here is a situation I have seen: My gr'daughter graduated with a masters from Vanderbilt University - a top tier uni.
In her major there were as many Asian students as there were from any other culture... far far more Asians than black people, females, or Native Americans all added together.
Many of them were not citizens. Their parents, being very wealthy, paid dearly to get their students in before citizen students. This is something we knew because my gr'daughter got permission to live in an apartment off-campus, and every roommate she had for the next 3 years were Asian. Two from North Korea and one from China. Mother's visited them and gr'daughter was able to learn more about their situations and why they were at her Top Tier university.
This, of course, is proof of nothing, but appears to raise questions.
Are Top Tier universities primarily concerned with their bottom line? Or are they primarily concerned with their academic standing.
Harvard, in taking a lot of money to accept and then graduate people like Jared Kushner and GWB, force me to think it is money they're after and that they possibly do not deserve their academic standing.
Asians, of course, will take advantage of that weakness at Harvard, just as a citizen would.
Here is a situation I have seen: My gr'daughter graduated with a masters from Vanderbilt University - a top tier uni.
In her major there were as many Asian students as there were from any other culture... far far more Asians than black people, females, or Native Americans all added together.
Many of them were not citizens. Their parents, being very wealthy, paid dearly to get their students in before citizen students. This is something we knew because my gr'daughter got permission to live in an apartment off-campus, and every roommate she had for the next 3 years were Asian. Two from North Korea and one from China. Mother's visited them and gr'daughter was able to learn more about their situations and why they were at her Top Tier university.
This, of course, is proof of nothing, but appears to raise questions.
Are Top Tier universities primarily concerned with their bottom line? Or are they primarily concerned with their academic standing.
Harvard, in taking a lot of money to accept and then graduate people like Jared Kushner and GWB, force me to think it is money they're after and that they possibly do not deserve their academic standing.
Asians, of course, will take advantage of that weakness at Harvard, just as a citizen would.
5
In order to gain admissions to a top private college, Asian Americans must on average have a SAT score 140 points higher than whites, 270 points higher than Hispanics, and 450 points higher than blacks. This is blatant discrimination.
It is a common stereotype that Asians have poor social skills, act robotic, and are not passionate about any extracurriculars. Obviously, many Asians do not fit this stereotype and do come across as passionate and interesting to admissions officers.
Everyone should be held to the same standard in college admissions, regardless of race.
It is a common stereotype that Asians have poor social skills, act robotic, and are not passionate about any extracurriculars. Obviously, many Asians do not fit this stereotype and do come across as passionate and interesting to admissions officers.
Everyone should be held to the same standard in college admissions, regardless of race.
8
If universities implemented race-blind admissions we would certainly need reverse affirmative actions laws to insure underprivileged white students have a chance to attend these career insuring institutions.
3
So Asian Americans aren't considered diversity? Only Blacks and Latinos and Native Americans?
Sounds like universities aren't the only ones that discriminate as I scroll through the comments.
Sounds like universities aren't the only ones that discriminate as I scroll through the comments.
7
The name is Harvard.
Chou Harvard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijK9KfMZB30
Get your Wigglesworth, baby ...
Chou Harvard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijK9KfMZB30
Get your Wigglesworth, baby ...
My biggest finding in the comment section is liberals are capable of being racists, throwing stereotypes at a minority group too. The blatant insult thrown at Asians is appalling.
It happens when facts or rational interpretation of evidence don't go with their opinions. You see we are not that different from the Republicans.
It happens when facts or rational interpretation of evidence don't go with their opinions. You see we are not that different from the Republicans.
37
What are those stereotypes? Asians are not genetically smarter than other races, so they culturally must be doing something to get into universities in disproportionate numbers. I would say, some of the things that many many upper middle-class Asians do account for a fair bit of the stereotype: Study a lot, participate in orchestra, play individual sports like tennis or swimming, participate in academic competitions like Science Olympiad. Not all Asians fit this schema, but enough do that you can't just blow it off as racism.
3
Can you enlighten us with your stereotypical African American, "enough that you cannot just blow it off as racism"?
4
"A Princeton study found that students who identify as Asian need to score 140 points higher on the SAT than whites to have the same chance of admission to private colleges"
Wow. As the father of a South Korean boy, I certainly take offense to this and would like to see the indefensible defended in a public court. Once again it seems to be coming down to what identity groups are worthy of special favors and which ones it is ok to discriminate against.
Not being well-rounded (the code word used to limit Asian attendance in the Ivy League) is quite similar to the approach used to exclude Jews in the past.
Stop the Asian stereotypes where every Asian is smart at math, has a Tiger Mom, and doesn't have creativity. Enough.
Wow. As the father of a South Korean boy, I certainly take offense to this and would like to see the indefensible defended in a public court. Once again it seems to be coming down to what identity groups are worthy of special favors and which ones it is ok to discriminate against.
Not being well-rounded (the code word used to limit Asian attendance in the Ivy League) is quite similar to the approach used to exclude Jews in the past.
Stop the Asian stereotypes where every Asian is smart at math, has a Tiger Mom, and doesn't have creativity. Enough.
42
If admission was based solely on SAT scores you would have a case. It isn't. Go look at the admissions web sites of the ivy league schools.
2
Affirmative Action. A tough nut to crack. You need to break a few eggs to make the perfect American omelette, I guess. But, these types of lawsuits never seem to end. There is another one around every corner. There's no end. Line up with the same comments...
I understand Affirmative Action policies in relation to African Americans and Native Americans, and I generally support them. However, I simply do not understand why Latinos/Hispanics (of which I am one and entirely of European descent for that matter, like so many of us) are considered an affirmative action category. Historic discrimination? What? Where? When? We immigrated here. Deal with it. If so, then as the professor here says, what about sub-groups of whites (such as Jewish, Italian, Arab, etc.). Where does it end? It never ends, frankly. Same with Asians. Yes, Asian immigrants were not allowed to naturalization prior to the 1940s, the treatment of the Japanese Americans during WWII, etc. but this historic treatment has evidently not held anyone back nor have they created any lingering institutional racism. The same is simply not true for African Americans and Native Americans.
I understand Affirmative Action policies in relation to African Americans and Native Americans, and I generally support them. However, I simply do not understand why Latinos/Hispanics (of which I am one and entirely of European descent for that matter, like so many of us) are considered an affirmative action category. Historic discrimination? What? Where? When? We immigrated here. Deal with it. If so, then as the professor here says, what about sub-groups of whites (such as Jewish, Italian, Arab, etc.). Where does it end? It never ends, frankly. Same with Asians. Yes, Asian immigrants were not allowed to naturalization prior to the 1940s, the treatment of the Japanese Americans during WWII, etc. but this historic treatment has evidently not held anyone back nor have they created any lingering institutional racism. The same is simply not true for African Americans and Native Americans.
44
Could the author parse out the Asian American kids by socioeconomic status? Some Asian kids have lawyers and doctors for parents and others have parents who work in blue collar jobs. How is that regarded in the process?
12
Actually a far more interesting question would be to parse out those who get into Harvard through Affirmative Action by socioeconomic status. How many of them are really kids from poor families? You are in for a treat (a shock, more likely).
11
who cares. yes, i'm sure that's one of the many beans they count, but that's the same thing poor whites complain about. that's probably what trump is foaming at the mouth about, you know, the poor white kid in rural wherever. look, it's not about socioeconomic diversity. it's about trying to correct decades, centuries of institutionalized racism against African Americans that can apparently only be corrected by institutionalizing a preference system. i don't oppose it.
2
First of all, Ivies and other elite universities that are popular with Asian and Asian American applicants should admit that they discriminate against them. American universities are trapped by various categories of diversity in American society with race being a particularly potent one and so Asian and Asian American students will simply have to have higher grades, higher test scores, and more stellar extracurriculars to have similar odds of getting in.
Second, Asian and Asian American students and their families will have a much happier experience with colleges if they expand their definition of excellence. Outstanding universities such as Vanderbilt and Duke (where I'm sure Mr. Jia found decent education), Florida and Utah, and colleges such as Carleton and Reed go begging for awesome Asian and Asian American students. In fact, United States has way too many great universities and not enough smart, bright students. Schools as great as Rice and Tulane still give merit-based scholarships so they can look as impressive as Yale and Princeton.
Indeed, this entire controversy is made for two groups that deserve each other--a handful of "elite" institutions that have an out-sized sense of self-importance and a group of people who look at colleges the same way they look at luxury car brands or designer handbags. The difference in the educational outcomes between going to Stanford and Bowdoin is relatively minimal--embrace Bowdoin and increase your odds of happiness by ten fold!
Second, Asian and Asian American students and their families will have a much happier experience with colleges if they expand their definition of excellence. Outstanding universities such as Vanderbilt and Duke (where I'm sure Mr. Jia found decent education), Florida and Utah, and colleges such as Carleton and Reed go begging for awesome Asian and Asian American students. In fact, United States has way too many great universities and not enough smart, bright students. Schools as great as Rice and Tulane still give merit-based scholarships so they can look as impressive as Yale and Princeton.
Indeed, this entire controversy is made for two groups that deserve each other--a handful of "elite" institutions that have an out-sized sense of self-importance and a group of people who look at colleges the same way they look at luxury car brands or designer handbags. The difference in the educational outcomes between going to Stanford and Bowdoin is relatively minimal--embrace Bowdoin and increase your odds of happiness by ten fold!
19
This should be a NYT pick, speaking more truth than those in denial and using stereotype to insult Asians and defend Affirmative Action (Oh the irony), and nailing it when it comes to Asians having a uniform definition of excellence.
4
I have all the sympathy for the Asian Americans being denied admissions to Ivy League schools but don't forget just a few years ago when the same Asian Americans were given admission at the expense of more deserving students with high scores to achieve diversity Asian Americans saw that as justice done to them.
What's good for the gander is good for the goose. For record I am an Asian American
What's good for the gander is good for the goose. For record I am an Asian American
11
I have made this comment before, but I think it is particularly relevant to this article.
My comments may be deemed heretical, but here goes. Affirmative action needs a fix, since it overgeneralizes categories and places students with no historical justification for affirmative action into the same category as those who have suffered great historical injustices.
As a good example, a white European student from a well to do family in Madrid, Spain, who never experienced such injustices, is given the same preference as an student from an impoverished indigenous family from Guatemala, solely because of last name. This makes no sense. Yet, that Spanish student would bump a student from Appalachia, whose family lives under the poverty line and has never received higher education.
The obvious fix would be to have affirmative action based upon the economic
status of a family. This would still benefit minorities who suffer disproportionate economic disadvantages, eliminate preferences for those who have no historical claim to them, and expand the pool to other deserving students.
Such a solution should quell the objection of those who believe deserving students ( of any race or ethnicity) are ignored by the system, while keeping a preference which still give the preponderance of preferences to deserving minorities
My comments may be deemed heretical, but here goes. Affirmative action needs a fix, since it overgeneralizes categories and places students with no historical justification for affirmative action into the same category as those who have suffered great historical injustices.
As a good example, a white European student from a well to do family in Madrid, Spain, who never experienced such injustices, is given the same preference as an student from an impoverished indigenous family from Guatemala, solely because of last name. This makes no sense. Yet, that Spanish student would bump a student from Appalachia, whose family lives under the poverty line and has never received higher education.
The obvious fix would be to have affirmative action based upon the economic
status of a family. This would still benefit minorities who suffer disproportionate economic disadvantages, eliminate preferences for those who have no historical claim to them, and expand the pool to other deserving students.
Such a solution should quell the objection of those who believe deserving students ( of any race or ethnicity) are ignored by the system, while keeping a preference which still give the preponderance of preferences to deserving minorities
24
Driven by self-preservation, Harvard wants to remain a New England institution and - like Venice, many other countries in Europe and the US - is pushing back on the Tsunami of people who want "in".
1
I am Asian-American. I am appalled and offended by the number of comments that perpetuate stereotypes against Asian-Americans. As many others have already stated, not all Asian-Americans have parents with well-educated backgrounds. Not all Asian-Americans are born into high-income households. Not all Asian-Americans have "tiger moms" that push them to get into good colleges. Nevertheless, I don't think there's much doubt that institutions such as Harvard (and many of you here) take these stereotypes as true to put an artificial "cap" on the number of Asians admitted. I feel sorry for those Asian-Americans who come from less privileged backgrounds, and as a result of their drive to succeed, have applied to Ivy League colleges--only to be turned down because of their race.
I am also rather annoyed by the number of ignorant comments, comments which would not have been posted with simple research. Harvard is a private institution, but it receives millions and millions of dollars from our tax money. Accordingly, Harvard has a duty to not engage in racial or ethnic discrimination in violation of the Civil Rights Act.
Lastly, I'll comment that I support diversity, but not the current affirmative action system, which is based on race. Affirmative action should be based on socioeconomic status, not race. I wouldn't be surprised if many blacks and Hispanics at Harvard come from high-income families, not too much different from Asian-Americans who fit their stereotypes.
I am also rather annoyed by the number of ignorant comments, comments which would not have been posted with simple research. Harvard is a private institution, but it receives millions and millions of dollars from our tax money. Accordingly, Harvard has a duty to not engage in racial or ethnic discrimination in violation of the Civil Rights Act.
Lastly, I'll comment that I support diversity, but not the current affirmative action system, which is based on race. Affirmative action should be based on socioeconomic status, not race. I wouldn't be surprised if many blacks and Hispanics at Harvard come from high-income families, not too much different from Asian-Americans who fit their stereotypes.
42
You make assumptions about Harvard's student body and admissions process that are demonstrably false.
1
Which assumptions? You make an accusatory, conclusory statement without any support. The last statement about the possibility of Harvard's admitting many blacks and Hispanics from high-income families might be inflaming, but it's something I'd like to know more about and like I said, "wouldn't be surprised" if true. Not sure how credible the following source is, but it suggests that "most" black students at Harvard come from high-income families: http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/52_harvard-blackstudents.html. The article also cites to a book called "The Chosen" by Jerome Karabel. Not having seen the statistics for myself, I have refused to make a conclusive statement. Please think for yourself, and stop with the non-substantive conclusory statements.
5
If Asian Americans defy common stereotypes, why are they disproportionately represented in higher education?
That said, I agree with your thoughts on basing Affirmative Action on socioeconomic status.
That said, I agree with your thoughts on basing Affirmative Action on socioeconomic status.
But can they play football or hockey?
5
Nah, but a friend of mine went to Cornell on a polo scholarship.
1
Affirmative-action is a response to discrimination - it is not itself discrimination. Besides, I'm sick of reactions to a.a. which are in themselves racist. Think about it - no one complains that donors' children or children of alumni or athletes or veterans receive preferential treatment without regard to academic achievement - but admit a minority member on the same basis and folks go crazy.
57
This is illogical. Heard about reverse discrimination?
1
I hear people complain about that all the time.
1
It is a discriminatory response to discrimination.
Some cliches about two wrongs comes to mind.
(Many complain about donor preferences. That is a separate issue however meant to increase Ivy League billion dollar endowment funds. The notion that these institutions are not for profit/not about money is ludicrous)
Some cliches about two wrongs comes to mind.
(Many complain about donor preferences. That is a separate issue however meant to increase Ivy League billion dollar endowment funds. The notion that these institutions are not for profit/not about money is ludicrous)
5
I fully support efforts by universities with selective admissions to balance the make up of their student body (and this isn't just about race, but about socio-economics, rural/urban, etc). For one thing, Asian American's aren't a minority in higher education systems by any means. Their diversity is well represented so they shouldn't expect to get any special status. And this is speculative, but based on my experience in higher education, but Asian Americans over-apply at name-brand schools like Harvard and under-apply at lots of great (though non-Ivy+) schools.
3
You missed the point. The point is all Americans should be treated equally as an individual. We should remove the cancer of ethnic politics in America.
8
By far the most harmful effect of "holistic admissions" aka affirmative action at our top colleges is the ridiculous emphasis on extra curricular activities, *in addition to* top grades and test scores. Aside from the high cost of participating in these activities, our HS kids are running themselves ragged with activities that do not directly benefit their academics in anyway. For example:
- why are we encouraging 15-18 year olds to participate in things like Model UN? The last thing we need is more career politicians. Politics should be something people enter after decades of success in the private sector.
- 90% of the volunteer work currently done by our high school kids are done solely for the purpose of college admission and carries not an once of sincerity
- in what way does your ability to play football or lacrosse help you learn Physics?
To make things worse, many top colleges now admit between 10-15% of foreign students, most of whom did nothing but study in high school because no other country except the US takes ECs into account in admissions, many of them then fake their volunteer activities, lie about awards received, or activities they participated in and our colleges either knowingly or naively accept it all to be truthful. Our students have enough competition with their compatriots, they can't compete with foreigners who claim fantasy ECs and awards and never get caught.
Stop the madness. End holistic admissions now and give our HS kids their lives back.
- why are we encouraging 15-18 year olds to participate in things like Model UN? The last thing we need is more career politicians. Politics should be something people enter after decades of success in the private sector.
- 90% of the volunteer work currently done by our high school kids are done solely for the purpose of college admission and carries not an once of sincerity
- in what way does your ability to play football or lacrosse help you learn Physics?
To make things worse, many top colleges now admit between 10-15% of foreign students, most of whom did nothing but study in high school because no other country except the US takes ECs into account in admissions, many of them then fake their volunteer activities, lie about awards received, or activities they participated in and our colleges either knowingly or naively accept it all to be truthful. Our students have enough competition with their compatriots, they can't compete with foreigners who claim fantasy ECs and awards and never get caught.
Stop the madness. End holistic admissions now and give our HS kids their lives back.
29
Asians make up 60 percent of the world's population. The U.S. makes up five percent. That's why.
6
An admissions officer once told me, it's not about what you've achieved, it's about what you've achieved with the opportunities you've been given. If higher education is to remain a powerful force for upward mobility, affirmative action needs to stay.
10
But should race be used to determine what opportunities a candidate were given rather than class? I'd argue that class is a better judge of opportunities than race.
15
I have reviewed hundreds and hundreds of college admissions and scholarship applications and have to say that for a student to claim that they were rejected because of affirmative action policies is specious at best. There are so many factors at play and a high GPA, perfect test scores, and "perfect activities" will not automatically land you in the admit pile. His reference letters could have felt canned, his essay might have been uninspiring, his interview might not have gone as well as he imagined. Or, more likely than not, his "slot" went to a legacy kid. Austin Jia sounds like an entitled (insert word here) -- and it probably came through during the application process. If he didn't make the cut at 4 Ivy League universities, then he probably wasn't as good a candidate as he thought.
14
I wish SATs and GPAs were accurate placeholders for "merit", but they are not. They do a pretty good job of reflecting the privilege that accrues to people of means, in much the same way that expensive foreign travel experiences or unpaid internships (who can afford those?) falsely indicate breadth of experience.
8
A difficult subject with no simple solution, complicated by priorities of “fairness" to diversity or to qualified individuals who may miss out because of admittance policies. This was a hot topic years ago at UC Berkeley when white students complained about reverse discrimination with “quotas” that were in disparity with demographics of the country as a whole, arguing that their acceptance numbers were lower than national averages for the white population.
Fast forward to UC Berkeley’s enrollment data for 2016 when Asians make up approximately 37% and whites make up 24%. Now we are hearing whites again complaining that it isn’t fair to place so much emphasis upon grades and test scores…that they should be allowed in in greater numbers more in line with demographic approximations national averages for race/ethnicity instead of academic achievement. What’s good for the goose may not be good for the gander.
Fast forward to UC Berkeley’s enrollment data for 2016 when Asians make up approximately 37% and whites make up 24%. Now we are hearing whites again complaining that it isn’t fair to place so much emphasis upon grades and test scores…that they should be allowed in in greater numbers more in line with demographic approximations national averages for race/ethnicity instead of academic achievement. What’s good for the goose may not be good for the gander.
8
We must also kill legacy admissions as well. And gender based admissions. Readers may not realize that preference is given to male applicants (including white males!), because the default gender tilt is 1/3 men-2/3rds women, and universities want more 50/50. Bet many have NOT heard of that.
3
As a parent who is headed down this road, the lawsuit should fail. Asians go for high scores, debate club and violins. In a sea of high achieving applicants, what makes this person special? What is their passion? Is it studying, chess and that's it? To be a successful applicant at any Ivy League, you have to make it clear what you offer to the University besides being smart and hard working. 99% of the other applicants are too. They may not have scored as high on the ACT but those other applicants have elements like charity work or entrepreneurial skills that make them stand out. Just read any other NYTimes article, they will tell you the same thing
4
What people often overlook or ignore about the college admissions process is that it requires filling a limited number of available openings from a much larger pool of applicants -- and in the case of the very best schools, this means that a lot of the best students in the nation will still get turned down, regardless of race, test scores, or extra-curriculars. Harvard's acceptance rate is 5.4%, which means that 94.6% of students who apply don't get accepted. I can understand Asians wanting to be a larger percentage of the 5.4% who do get accepted, but this means that some other group will have to comprise a smaller percentage. So take your pick: will it be blacks, Latinos, whites, or others? And at what point does any one group's percentage become too large? I suspect that even those who argue for a strict meritocracy and race blind admissions might change their tune if Asian students comprised more than 50% of the student bodies of top colleges and universities, especially in a nation that is still majority white.
4
If our K-12 education system were truly integrated and equal, there wouldn't be a need for affirmative action. But as things stand now, there are terrible disparities in K-12 schools. In Southern California, many Latino and African-American schools are segregated, and kids lack access to basics like libraries and arts programs. Those kids are starting at the bottom of the mountain and climbing to the top, while other kids start halfway up. Of course the ultimate solution would be to promote equality in K-12 education, but middle and upper-middle class parents resist any change to the status quo.
I live in a community full of parents who put enormous pressure on their kids in the hopes of getting them into Harvard and other elite institutions. This obsession with the Ivy League is misplaced. Among the people I know who graduated from these institutions, some are very successful, but others have not accomplished much in their lives. I've also known very successful people who attended state universities, or did not graduate at all. In the end, there are many factors which contribute to success in life, and a diploma from Harvard is no guarantee of happiness or fulfillment. Harvard also seems to graduate a lot of conservative jerks (see Tom Cotton, Ted Cruz, Steve Bannon, etc.)
I live in a community full of parents who put enormous pressure on their kids in the hopes of getting them into Harvard and other elite institutions. This obsession with the Ivy League is misplaced. Among the people I know who graduated from these institutions, some are very successful, but others have not accomplished much in their lives. I've also known very successful people who attended state universities, or did not graduate at all. In the end, there are many factors which contribute to success in life, and a diploma from Harvard is no guarantee of happiness or fulfillment. Harvard also seems to graduate a lot of conservative jerks (see Tom Cotton, Ted Cruz, Steve Bannon, etc.)
7
Affirmative action should not be based on color but income. Why should well-off minorities be given a test advantage? Are we saying there are no poor white kids? As an Asian-American with poor parents I was penalized and had to score higher. I could not afford the tutors or the summer visits to exotic places to build my resume. If you want diversity, have a mix of income levels, not a mix of colors. A rich Asian is very different from a poor Asian. The rich Asians ski during break. The poor ones deliver takeout.
27
So just to recap: the Justice Department is not in fact launching an investigation into anti-white discrimination at colleges and universities. And the action they ARE taking is based on a complaint they received, which they are required to follow up on.
I'd think there's more than enough to be outraged about in the Trump presidency that's real. No need to make stuff up.
I'd think there's more than enough to be outraged about in the Trump presidency that's real. No need to make stuff up.
4
When one sees a undeserving graduate from an elite school, one starts to feel sorry for the school and the graduate.
4
"he did advocacy for an Asian-American student group" .. what about helping others?
4
Would you have the same criticism for students of all minority groups advocating for their own?
8
This is simply true, and it's more pronounced in schoola in California. The Dean of a department I worked in at NYU told me his adopted Asian daughter couldn't get into certain California colleges simply because she's Asian. I said well that's unfair. He said, yeah but if they treated all applicants equally in admissions out there then entire schools would be nearly all Asian. To which I said, So what? California has the highest Asian population in the USA. That's what happens in places with lots of Asians, like California (I wanted to add, or China). He shrugged. No one should be discriminated against based on their ethnicity. To me that's not liberal; it's the opposite.
11
Asians make up 6% of US population and 22% of Harvard's 2021 class. Sounds like discrimination to me.
8
My biggest problem with this whole "diversity" push is that it only considers one type of diversity - that of skin color. It's completely superficial. The same people who push for "diversity" cares not a whiff about diversity of *views*, worse, they want all their applicants to conform to the same views -- if you campaigned for Bernie Sanders, definitely mention that in your essay as you *know* it'll help, interned for Trump? Better not even mention it. In other words, our colleges want to admit people who look different, but all think the same. This is the reason why our colleges today are so intolerant of difference of opinion. This must change.
It's time to end this racist obsession with diversity of skin color, and start focusing on diversity of thoughts. Every parent knows even 2 kids from the same family could end up with very different views, believes, aspirations, aptitude, interests, behavior patterns. We are becoming more and more multicultural as a society. Affirmative Action is a divisive policy that focuses on the superficial skin color and further divides us as peoples. It's time for this ill considered policy to end.
We need to start treating each person as an individual, focus on how people THINK, SPEAK and ACT rather than how they LOOK. Stop treating individuals as members of a group, esp. a group he/she has no choice in belonging to since birth, and evaluate them based on group stereotypes, if that's not the very definition of racism I don't know what is.
It's time to end this racist obsession with diversity of skin color, and start focusing on diversity of thoughts. Every parent knows even 2 kids from the same family could end up with very different views, believes, aspirations, aptitude, interests, behavior patterns. We are becoming more and more multicultural as a society. Affirmative Action is a divisive policy that focuses on the superficial skin color and further divides us as peoples. It's time for this ill considered policy to end.
We need to start treating each person as an individual, focus on how people THINK, SPEAK and ACT rather than how they LOOK. Stop treating individuals as members of a group, esp. a group he/she has no choice in belonging to since birth, and evaluate them based on group stereotypes, if that's not the very definition of racism I don't know what is.
10
The elephant in the room, of course, is group IQ differences. No amount of affirmative action shamming will ever change this biological fact.
9
If it cracks like a duck, walks like a duck, swim like a duck, it is a duck. Harvard, hidden behind a black box admission process, mysteriously admit a flat percentage of each racial group for the past decade, no matter composition of applicant pool. It has, with little doubt, a race quota.
14
Oh my didn't we just applaud an artcle in the NYT about low income, low academic scoring kids who were given a chance to attend a high academic/performing arts school?
Oi Vey --- The big elephant in the room - yuge - is that we know darn well that if there are not programs in place blacks would be totally locked out.
Besides - why doesn't someone sue re low performing legacy students taking up spaces which could go to a high performing student. Uhmmm?
Oi Vey --- The big elephant in the room - yuge - is that we know darn well that if there are not programs in place blacks would be totally locked out.
Besides - why doesn't someone sue re low performing legacy students taking up spaces which could go to a high performing student. Uhmmm?
4
I honestly think that what's really at play in these admissions decisions is discrimination against multitudes of high-achieving students who might have perfect grades and numbers but are otherwise are completely unremarkable, and many of these students happen to be Asian.
Getting into college isn't a simple numbers game anymore. Perfect GPAs and SAT scores are a dime a dozen. I got into an elite university with a 2.9 GPA (unweighted), a 1380 (I was in the last class to take the old SAT), and a good portfolio. Hundreds of kids with perfect grades and perfect test scores got rejected from this school that year, but there I was with much crappier numbers.
I mean, if I had 50 applications and could only pick one, and 49 applications were from 4.0 GPA chess club presidents and one was from a kid with a 3.2 who built dune buggies in his/her spare time, you bet your bottom I'd pick the dune buggy kid, because dune buggy kid is going to have way more to offer to fellow students and the school than yet another boring overachiever with no life outside of getting good grades and becoming chess club president for college application purposes.
Getting into college isn't a simple numbers game anymore. Perfect GPAs and SAT scores are a dime a dozen. I got into an elite university with a 2.9 GPA (unweighted), a 1380 (I was in the last class to take the old SAT), and a good portfolio. Hundreds of kids with perfect grades and perfect test scores got rejected from this school that year, but there I was with much crappier numbers.
I mean, if I had 50 applications and could only pick one, and 49 applications were from 4.0 GPA chess club presidents and one was from a kid with a 3.2 who built dune buggies in his/her spare time, you bet your bottom I'd pick the dune buggy kid, because dune buggy kid is going to have way more to offer to fellow students and the school than yet another boring overachiever with no life outside of getting good grades and becoming chess club president for college application purposes.
3
This issue should not be framed as Asian-Americans against other minorities. After all it is whites that get the largest share of spots at Ivy league schools. The point of affirmative action is to assist underprivileged minorities that have been the victims of historical discrimination by white people. There is no reason why fairness in admission towards Asian-Americans cannot coexist with affirmative action. Why can't schools let Asian-Americans compete for admission spots on an even playing field with whites? They can start by getting rid of the legacy preferences which predominately help unqualified rich white people.
66
The point of affirmative action was to assist African Americans who have been the victims of historic discrimination of a kind that no other group has faced. How it ended up being extended to "other minorities" is one of America's great follies. By the same token, as Alan Dershowitz points out, when you look at sub-groups of whites, you find people---southern and eastern Europeans (including Jews), Arabs---who faced historic discrimination by white people. What about them? I mean, those certainly aren't the people getting legacy preference. At the end of the day, the issue will always be framed as [name your group] against African Americans. Fairness in admissions cannot exist when there is a preference, be it a legacy one, a racist one, or an affirmative one. Moreover, as everyone comes from different backgrounds, different economic and social circumstances, etc. there is never a level playing field. Ever.
3
Be careful what you wish for.
This lawsuit uses an Asian frontman to advance the cause of bitter whites who can't stand the idea that they're no longer entitled to be in the front of every line. But if schools adapted a policy of completely blind admissions - no consideration given to diversity of race, sex, legacy (children of alums), or children/friends of big donors - within five years the best schools will be:
70% female
60% Asian
20% white males
if based on academic achievement, character and extracurricular activities alone.
This lawsuit uses an Asian frontman to advance the cause of bitter whites who can't stand the idea that they're no longer entitled to be in the front of every line. But if schools adapted a policy of completely blind admissions - no consideration given to diversity of race, sex, legacy (children of alums), or children/friends of big donors - within five years the best schools will be:
70% female
60% Asian
20% white males
if based on academic achievement, character and extracurricular activities alone.
71
One example: Caltech
Men: 59%
Asian: 42%
White: 29%
International: 9%
Men: 59%
Asian: 42%
White: 29%
International: 9%
3
I'm raising two high school age white males. If that's what we end up based on a fair, meritocratic admissions system, so be it. Meritocracy is what makes America great, it's why we are not a class based society like Europe, Asia or in fact much of the rest of the world. We must preserve that meritocratic legacy in America. Let talent and hard work be the only things that propel each person forward. We will be a stronger country for it.
6
I was thinking along those same lines the other day when arguing with a conservative co-worker.
I realize the Times can't put everything into one article. I recommend that you read this article by a Chinese Harvard graduate for background on Students for Fair Admissions, Inc.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/24/opinion/yang-harvard-lawsuit/index.html
Harvard lawsuit is not what it seems
By Jeff Yang
CNN
November 24, 2014
[This student] was discovered through a broad-based campaign conducted by SFFA founder Edward Blum — a frustrated Republican congressional candidate who has chosen to make a career out of waging war on laws and policies that give "special privileges" to minorities. Dou was someone Blum wanted -- a student willing to serve as a test case in a high-profile attack on affirmative action.
And follow his link to http://www.colorlines.com/articles/wanted-disgruntled-asian-americans-at...
"He's doing an excellent job of using Asian-Americans as a wedge to oppose race-conscious admissions," Lee said.
"Asian-Americans have been used over and over and over again to make the point that racism is not an insurmountable disadvantage if you're willing to just shut up and put up and work hard enough to succeed," says Scot Nakagawa
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/24/opinion/yang-harvard-lawsuit/index.html
Harvard lawsuit is not what it seems
By Jeff Yang
CNN
November 24, 2014
[This student] was discovered through a broad-based campaign conducted by SFFA founder Edward Blum — a frustrated Republican congressional candidate who has chosen to make a career out of waging war on laws and policies that give "special privileges" to minorities. Dou was someone Blum wanted -- a student willing to serve as a test case in a high-profile attack on affirmative action.
And follow his link to http://www.colorlines.com/articles/wanted-disgruntled-asian-americans-at...
"He's doing an excellent job of using Asian-Americans as a wedge to oppose race-conscious admissions," Lee said.
"Asian-Americans have been used over and over and over again to make the point that racism is not an insurmountable disadvantage if you're willing to just shut up and put up and work hard enough to succeed," says Scot Nakagawa
42
Thank you for providing links to these articles. If Asian-Americans are smart, they'll prove it by not falling into a trap that's been set for them by disgruntled whites.
At Dartmouth College, located in the middle of nowhere New Hampshire, qualified minority applicants don't even consider the school - preferring instead schools near or in bigger cities. And yet they magically have more than 50% minority enrollment. Meanwhile the staff at the school are more than 90% white with similar levels for faculty.
How is it that they cannot find qualified faculty and staff of color, but they can find students who qualify? Seems to me that they have double standards because the law allows them to discriminate by race when it comes to students, but not when it comes to employment.
How is it that they cannot find qualified faculty and staff of color, but they can find students who qualify? Seems to me that they have double standards because the law allows them to discriminate by race when it comes to students, but not when it comes to employment.
8
If they diversify the faculty, the school's research and scholarship quality will suffer. The school's reputation will go down the drain. Diversifying the student body has little impact on the school's reputation. It is a pure game.
4
Dartmouth has rarefied air in their faculty rooms. They're very self important people who are quietly sworn to protect their higher positions.
2
False equivalency big time. The population of New Hampshire is 90% white. Students come from all over. Workers are local. South Dakota is 98% white, bet staffs are as well.
4
With all due respect, the premise of this lawsuit is absurd. Apparently, Mr. Jia's assumes that admission to an Ivy League school is some kind of a constitutional right. Of course, one could argue for the benefits of a completely blind, meritocratic system but then again, Harvard is a private institution and -- I hate to say this -- as long they are not violating a Federal statute, they are entitled to making up their own admission rules. The bottom line is that, with a freshman class at Harvard of about 600 each year, there just isn't enough room for everyone, even if they chose to admit only high academic achievers like Mr. Jia.
15
Would you feel the same way if employers did the same thing? Oh, that's illegal.
4
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 outlaws discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Schools that facto race and ethnicity into the admission process violate the civil rights of those disadvantaged.
In 2003, Justice Sandra Day O’Conner wrote the majority opinion in Grutter vs. Bollinger, which granted affirmative action a temporary reprieve. However, she did not say the reprieve should last 25 years. In her majority decision, she wrote, “We are mindful, however, that a core purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to do away with all governmentally imposed discrimination based on race. Accordingly, race-conscious admissions policies must be limited in time.” She added, “The Court expects that 25 years from now, the use of racial preferences will no longer be necessary to further the interest approved today." This means only that she expected racial preferences to expire at some point during the next 25 years. Ending racial preferences this year would comply with the order.
In 2003, Justice Sandra Day O’Conner wrote the majority opinion in Grutter vs. Bollinger, which granted affirmative action a temporary reprieve. However, she did not say the reprieve should last 25 years. In her majority decision, she wrote, “We are mindful, however, that a core purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to do away with all governmentally imposed discrimination based on race. Accordingly, race-conscious admissions policies must be limited in time.” She added, “The Court expects that 25 years from now, the use of racial preferences will no longer be necessary to further the interest approved today." This means only that she expected racial preferences to expire at some point during the next 25 years. Ending racial preferences this year would comply with the order.
4
Harvard accepts hundreds of millions in federally funded dollars each year, for all types of research, in addition to enjoying tax free status from property taxes, taxes on donations to their endowments and returns on those endowments. It's fine if Harvard wants to stick to its private status and admit whoever it wants, but first it must give up all the billions in federal taxpayer funded privileges. If it wants to keep accepting the taxpayer funded billions, it must adhere to the same laws that apply to our state universities.
3
Let this idiotic president attack affirmative action and watch the percentages of White students drop at Ivy League schools, especially if legacy admissions are dismantled. It is a well known fact that many universities have an Asian quota because if they go by test scores and GPAs alone, student bodies will be majority Asian! No more chances for sub par students like Jared Kushner to buy his way into Harvard..
18
Legacy admissions don't violate the Civil Rights Act because they are not based on race, religion, sex, or national origin. Schools defends legacy admission by pointed out that minority student make up a larger proportion of legacy admission that they do of the student body. If legacy admission were abolished, virtually all the slots would go to white or Asian students, not African Americans or Hispanics. Legacy admission should be abolished because they are unfair to all applicants who aren't legacies. Texas A&M abolished legacy admissions along with racial and ethnic preferences.
2
I thought you would welcome the elimination of legacy admissions. I do. Or do you just defend legacy admissions because of your hatred of Trump?
2
You write about seeing Asian student percentages climb as if that's inherently a bad thing. We Americans should strive not to dislike others based solely on their ethnic group membership.
6
A friend of mine told me that he was accepted into an Ivy due to his extra-circular activity as a high achieving, nationally recognized Eagle Scout.
So there are many ways to skin this cat, so to speak.
He also had to pay back his entire Brown tuition fees, to the charity of his choice, by the strict request of his parents.
So there are many ways to skin this cat, so to speak.
He also had to pay back his entire Brown tuition fees, to the charity of his choice, by the strict request of his parents.
7
Because of their talent, African Americans are overrepresented in athletics. There are no Asian football players to my knowledge. If we do not care about diversity in physical arenas, why do we in academic fields?
40
Graduates of Harvard, Yale, UPenn, Columbia, etc. end up with their fingers on the nuclear button, not former players for the Cavaliers and Patriots. That's why. The first and only U.S. president to ever authorize the use of nuclear weapons (Harry Truman) never attended an Ivy League school and didn't even graduate from college, but the U.S. has changed a great deal since 1945.
It is close to guaranteed that if a second U.S. president authorizes the use of nuclear weapons, that person will be an Ivy League graduate. It may be a little hard to comprehend why this matters, but many Americans would feel more comfortable if that president happened to be the descendant of black slaves rather than the descendant of white slaveowners or Gilded Age robber barons.
It is close to guaranteed that if a second U.S. president authorizes the use of nuclear weapons, that person will be an Ivy League graduate. It may be a little hard to comprehend why this matters, but many Americans would feel more comfortable if that president happened to be the descendant of black slaves rather than the descendant of white slaveowners or Gilded Age robber barons.
1
I don't understand why Harvard and other Ivy League schools were not sued over historic discrimination against Jews and blacks. This history is told in great detail in the book, The Chosen by Jerome Karabel. Those who were denied admission unfairly were most likely discouraged from suing because it would look like "sour grapes", but there is no question there was systematic exclusion.
The entire history of leadership and wealth in America has been guided and greatly influenced by these schools. They might be private, but they are vastly important social institutions. Each year, they pile up more wealth and influence as those who attended send millions their way. Additionally, legacy preference admissions help to ensure that the children of graduates enjoy the same benefits.
The two guiding theories behind elite education are, 1. there are only so many seats in a classroom and, 2. only certain people will actually be able to benefit from this high level education. With video on demand and online classes, seats are now unlimited. As for the second theory, when Stanford conducted open enrollment online, some of the students thus enrolled out performed full time, classroom students.
What Harvard wants now is the same thing it wanted when Jews were excluded: they don't want to be an institution dominated by a single group. The fact that there are unwritten rules, un-monitored but real quotas, gives lie to the whole idea, and the ideal, of merit admissions.
The entire history of leadership and wealth in America has been guided and greatly influenced by these schools. They might be private, but they are vastly important social institutions. Each year, they pile up more wealth and influence as those who attended send millions their way. Additionally, legacy preference admissions help to ensure that the children of graduates enjoy the same benefits.
The two guiding theories behind elite education are, 1. there are only so many seats in a classroom and, 2. only certain people will actually be able to benefit from this high level education. With video on demand and online classes, seats are now unlimited. As for the second theory, when Stanford conducted open enrollment online, some of the students thus enrolled out performed full time, classroom students.
What Harvard wants now is the same thing it wanted when Jews were excluded: they don't want to be an institution dominated by a single group. The fact that there are unwritten rules, un-monitored but real quotas, gives lie to the whole idea, and the ideal, of merit admissions.
8
Why no suits? Perhaps because there is no Constitutional right to attend a private school....
3
The same discrimination happens in medical school. There are now "under-representative minorities" (Black and Hispanic), White and others (over- representative minorities ie:Asian ). This obvious racism has to cease.
13
I think many medical schools believe that they are providing better medical care to poor, black and hispanic communities by training doctors from those communities.
Similarly doctors from rural backgrounds are more likely to desire to provide service in the communities they came from. Surely, you don't believe that doctors raised in NYC are likely to move to Appalachian communities or rural Montana in droves?
Similarly doctors from rural backgrounds are more likely to desire to provide service in the communities they came from. Surely, you don't believe that doctors raised in NYC are likely to move to Appalachian communities or rural Montana in droves?
1
How many athletes get into schools with lower test scores? How many white "legacy" students get in?
This lawsuit is arguing that test scores should be the only criteria I'm getting admission. that's idiotic. What about essays?
This lawsuit is arguing that test scores should be the only criteria I'm getting admission. that's idiotic. What about essays?
5
Essays can be written by others.
2
The problem is essays are fluff. There is nothing concrete in those essays. People could lie through their teeth about experiences claimed in those essays and the colleges would be none the wiser. Grades and test scores meanwhile are concrete.
If colleges only want to admit based on who can write the most compelling essays, then why not just eliminate the need for transcripts altogether? Stop giving the illusion that your grades and test scores matter when only your essays and ECs do. Just have applicants submit essays and that's it. That way when kids get rejected they'll at least know it's because their essays are not good enough. This whole stupidity of relying on essays is already creating a huge industry out there with unemployed English majors now ghost writing college essays for kids for a living. You can even buy canned written ones online. Most applicants from China use ghost writers. Admitting based on essays is making our colleges look like jokes.
If colleges only want to admit based on who can write the most compelling essays, then why not just eliminate the need for transcripts altogether? Stop giving the illusion that your grades and test scores matter when only your essays and ECs do. Just have applicants submit essays and that's it. That way when kids get rejected they'll at least know it's because their essays are not good enough. This whole stupidity of relying on essays is already creating a huge industry out there with unemployed English majors now ghost writing college essays for kids for a living. You can even buy canned written ones online. Most applicants from China use ghost writers. Admitting based on essays is making our colleges look like jokes.
5
Cheating is so "rampant, ubiquitous, systematic, random" and sponsored by schools, governments and parents that ETS will not offer electronic standardized test in China, Taiwan, Korea. It is a regular occurrence that all of the tests of an Asian country are canceled due to systemic cheating. Hard work? That would account for A report card full of Bs. Wake up and smell the cheating. 2d, these are the most xenophobic people on earth demanding that they receive in America what they would never ever give to an American.
3
You seem to be confusing the students in this article, who are in America (and overwhelmingly American), with students in Asian countries.
10
I don't understand how a candidate who won more overall votes lost because citizens living in less populated rural states were given a louder voice is perfectly acceptable, however, doing something similar in admissions in the name of diversity is discriminatory. Perhaps Harvard should take less students from certain zip codes that are over represented (silicon valley) and more from others (inner city schools) to mirror something similar to the United States voting system. If well to do parents want to send their children to run down High School's in order to give them a better chance, they may also improve the condition of these schools. If Geographical discrimination is perfectly normal in America, I say play by the rules as they exist. Just a though, but I'm no Ivy League grad.
5
Here's a reason: Harvard, unlike the United States, is not a constitutional republic...
5
It's because the Constitution provides that states—not the general public—elects presidents. Each state holds an election to determine which candidate it vote for. There is no geographic discrimination. Each states is allotted electoral votes based on its population. This is in no way similar to college admissions. Racial and ethnic preferences in college admission violates the Civil Rights Act, which outlaws discrimination based on race, religion, sex or national origin.
2
The purpose of an elite college education is not the fact that one attended the college, but the contributions to the world it enables one to make. If a student is so narrow-minded as to believe that admission to one of a handful of the most selective colleges in the country is necessary to make a difference in society–and makes that admission the sole purpose of their teenage years–then that student probably does not deserve admission to those schools in the first place.
12
Well said Andrew. It is not ALL about becoming a doctor or a lawyer.
To learn about many subjects during undergrad years is a requirement in a liberal arts college.
It used to be referred to as a 'well rounded' education.
To learn about many subjects during undergrad years is a requirement in a liberal arts college.
It used to be referred to as a 'well rounded' education.
3
If there is one thing this lawsuit might do, it's to lay bare the exact nature of at least the Harvard admissions process. Admissions departments are like the Department of Mysteries to most Americans. Applications go in the black box, and acceptances or rejections come out of it. The alchemical process leads those qualified but rejected to come up with their own theory as to why they weren't selected while the admissions offices can never, ever tell the whole story. At UVA the admissions deans push the essay as the place to make yourself a memorable and desired individual. A well watched documentary would follow several applications though the whole process at a selective school.
4
. In an amicus brief in the Fisher vs University of Texas case, UCLA law profession Richard Sander pointed out that racial and ethnic preferences at the University of Texas are decisive: “For example, among freshmen entering the University of Texas at Austin in 2009 who were admitted outside the top-ten-percent system, the mean SAT score (on a scale of 2400) of Asians was a staggering 467 points and the mean score of whites was 390 points above the mean black score. In percentile terms, these Asians scored at the 93rd percentile of 2009 SAT takers nationwide, whites at the 89th percentile, Hispanics at the 80th percentile, and blacks at the 52nd percentile.”
3
The conservative groups backing suits like this appear to believe that Asian-Americans and whites have common cause against the supposed beneficiaries of diversity-focused admissions, namely Latinos, African-Americans and Native Americans. However, if the groups are successful in their lawsuits, the likely results is that Asian-American admissions to super elite schools will increase, and the number of white students admitted will diminish. This is what happened at the more selective campuses of the University of California after their earlier diversity-based plans were squelched and admissions were replaced with a more basic SAT / GPA calculation. Then the white conservative plaintiffs will try to think up another allegation of unfairness to explain why they are not getting what they feel entitled to.
9
No. When California outlawed consideration of race in college admissions - whites did not try to limit admission of Asian Americans. White Californians accepted it as a level playing field. Some states added consideration of socio-economic status instead of race- but that consideration applied to students of all races (level playing field)- and generally had no complaints (except in Teaxas where they sued to add race back as an explicit consideration - but that was a complaint form the liberals not the conservatives). Your bias against white conservatives is showing by ideas they do not express but that you project on to them.
5
There would be a significant increase in Asian admission and a smaller increase in white admissions.
2
Why assume racism among your political opponents, and why suggest that increased numbers of Asian-Americans at these schools would be a bad thing?
2
Harvard (and many other colleges) could fill each incoming class five or ten times over with applicants with amazing test scores, grades and activities, so it makes sense that they consider all kinds of intangible factors, including diversity whether it is economic, racial/ethnic, life experience or anything else they deem enriching to their educational environment. What I find harder to understand is the acceptance of rich legacy students -- usually white -- who are not amazing. Those students will do fine in life at colleges suitable to the grades/scores with their money and connections, and it's a disgrace that Harvard and other schools continue to give away the awesome prestige and power of their degrees to such unworthy applicants, which only further contributes to the inequality permeating so much of American life today. Legacy preferences and/or buying your child a spot with tax deductible donations should be abolished.
12
It's difficult to tell private colleges what they can or cannot do, apart from what is already the law (meaning they can't specifically discriminate on the basis of race and some other things). Maybe they would alter the rules if they were to lose government funding, but honestly these colleges' endowments are so large that it probably wouldn't matter. Public universities are another matter.
Also, jnc14, many legacy students are very deserving of admittance to these colleges.
Also, jnc14, many legacy students are very deserving of admittance to these colleges.
1
Eliminate the donations and the private schools will vanish. It's the donors who support them, and it's the endowments created as a result of those donations that allow the schools give to the needy students the financial support and scholarships that allow them to attend. That's how it works. Why should these donors continue to give their money to the Ivies, Stanfords, andNotre Dames of the world if they are denied something in return. And stop with tiresome rant about Whites. Such comments are racist to the core...
4
"Why should these donors continue to give their money to the Ivies, Stanfords, and Notre Dames of the world if they are denied something in return". You have shown no evidence of that. On the contrary, there is very good evidence that alumni of elite institutions will donate generously even without legacy admissions to their relatives. MIT and Caltech are examples of top-ranked institutions which do not do legacy admissions (good for them!!) and are still able to raise large donations from their alumni. I've donated every year for decades to my grad school (UC Berkeley) even though they do not offer my children any special privileges. Alumni give for many reasons. I give because UCB does a great service to California and the country by providing an absolutely terrific education to as large a number of students as they can at the lowest possible cost to them. Legacy admissions provides a huge advantage to the most privileged kids in the world.
1
Look, there are different pools of candidates. Perfect scores and "grit" are not going to get you into the Ivy League. They turn down plenty of people. Maybe the right prep school or legacy or sport will do the trick. Or if your last name is Kushner, the right amount of your donation. Your best shot though is to be a geographically diverse candidate. A math major from Iowa or engineering student from Anchorage, Alaska. Just because you do everything (you think is) "right" doesn't mean you get the prize.
11
Maybe the scores are higher, but the "distance traveled" may be a lot less, i.e. the starting point of the person who feels unfairly discriminated against compared to where they are now may be a lot less impressive compared to students with lower scores who had to overcome higher barriers to get to the point they are at. There is value to those who have "travelled" further that legacy white students and privileged Asian American students just can't bring to the table. Perhaps family income should be taken into account and then we'll see where the numbers stack up.
2
What "privilege" do you believe Asian Americans share?
3
As an Asian American who believes in affirmative action and understands the legacy of racist policies that result in educational disparities, please stop publishing articles that pit my community against other communities of color. Please stop promoting the model minority myth. National studies have shown that the vast majority of Asian Americans support affirmative action (http://naasurvey.com/where-do-asian-americans-stand-on-affirmative-action/). The Asian American community is not a high achieving monolith and this article does incredible damage to those among us who still face high hurdles to equity and stability, especially Southeast Asian Americans. New York Times, do better.
12
Isn't your argument with the lawsuit itself? The article seems pretty even-handed, or at pains to try to be.
1
I'm puzzled -- how does spreading information do "incredible damage" to members of your community? Surely this should be an opportunity to make a strong moral and/or evidential case for maintaining and expanding affirmative action?
We all knew that many "elite" schools especially in the north like Harvard had and have quotas for "high achieving" Jews.
Many very qualified students had to flee to of all places the south for college or professional schools like medical school.
It amazes me how no one feels that it is a problem. Why?
Many very qualified students had to flee to of all places the south for college or professional schools like medical school.
It amazes me how no one feels that it is a problem. Why?
5
As an Asian American born in this country, I am extremely aware of all the discrimination against us. I have faced these barriers all my life.
I was fortunate to be accepted into Columbia University. In spite of that, I advocate a race blind admission standard to allow the slots to the best prepared students.
I reject the racist comments that I am a non creative robot who is only driven by a "Tiger Mom". I have been just as creative as any other White person as evidenced by the numerous patents and awards I have received as an engineer and later as a physician.
I was fortunate to be accepted into Columbia University. In spite of that, I advocate a race blind admission standard to allow the slots to the best prepared students.
I reject the racist comments that I am a non creative robot who is only driven by a "Tiger Mom". I have been just as creative as any other White person as evidenced by the numerous patents and awards I have received as an engineer and later as a physician.
29
I am AA and although I do agree with some reasons for limitations in AA acceptance rates, some of the reasons people list here are simply racist. The vast majority of college applicants were born and raised here, so to make references to China/communism are offensive when most are 1st-3rd generation americans at this point, born and raised with the same education, and cultural/social media influences as other kids. Although yes there may be some "tiger moms", to say the majority of asian americans are robots,lacking of innovation and/or social skills as the reason they should be denied is offensive. These are all racial stereotypes to support discrimination based off of anecdotal evidence. Please show data supporting this before using these as reasons. My parents were not tiger parents but I learned at an early age that I needed to work hard and succeeding in school would only help keep doors open for opportunities later in life. Maybe more americans need to teach a stronger work ethic, rather than complaining about minorities excelling at school.
Do all these kids need to go to Ivy league schools? Of course not and I think complaining about which top tier school they got into is a little ridiculous. However these same arguments against college acceptance are the same reasons listed for why AA are poorly represented in executive positions in the workplace. Lets call it what it often is- racism.
Do all these kids need to go to Ivy league schools? Of course not and I think complaining about which top tier school they got into is a little ridiculous. However these same arguments against college acceptance are the same reasons listed for why AA are poorly represented in executive positions in the workplace. Lets call it what it often is- racism.
15
It's how liberals justify their racism, which is why I don't get that Asians continue to vote for the Democratic party?
3
This kid applied to 14 colleges, 11 listed, among them Rutgers. The other ten were all elite. What were the other three? Probably next level. Rutgers was obviously the safety school. Would Rutgers have the guts to say, hey, you are not coming here, why are you wasting our time? The long list possibly hurt him. Each school concluded, you are just shopping, no particular interest in us, yes a good candidate but we want the one committed to us, so go to the next good school other than us. This kid got bad parental coaching and bad high school guidance. And now suing, Bad form, not Harvard material. The Harvard admissions people had figured this out.
5
On one hand I am sympathetic to the guy and on the other hand I am not. He checked all the boxes which is great. On the other hand tough luck. The NY Times has a bias of going to bat for Asians. There was an op-ed a few months ago about admissions and a long winded article from an editor about he was rudely treated by some lady a few months back as well. As I recall there was no effort by the NY Times to interview her to give her side of the story.
Now to give a few better practical reasons, rather than a rude one. Asians are master test takers. They prep extensively for the SAT exam and so the exam is not a reliable indicator of their level of intelligence. I would not be surprised that they use ghost writers for their essays. I have known white students to do that as well.
Second one should greatly expand the sample to other universities to see what are the acceptance rates at other universities. What about Williams College, Amherst College or Reed College? In 2015 Williams starting class of 548 had 74 Asians (13.5%). Harvard's 2017 statistics were 22.2%. (Amherst and Reed did not break out statistics by race on their websites.) The reality is that Asians are name brand conscience.
Third, universities want a well rounded population of majors. Asians tend to go for pre-med, engineering or computer science. This makes a very truly lopsided student population. Admissions officers are just trying to round out the university.
Now to give a few better practical reasons, rather than a rude one. Asians are master test takers. They prep extensively for the SAT exam and so the exam is not a reliable indicator of their level of intelligence. I would not be surprised that they use ghost writers for their essays. I have known white students to do that as well.
Second one should greatly expand the sample to other universities to see what are the acceptance rates at other universities. What about Williams College, Amherst College or Reed College? In 2015 Williams starting class of 548 had 74 Asians (13.5%). Harvard's 2017 statistics were 22.2%. (Amherst and Reed did not break out statistics by race on their websites.) The reality is that Asians are name brand conscience.
Third, universities want a well rounded population of majors. Asians tend to go for pre-med, engineering or computer science. This makes a very truly lopsided student population. Admissions officers are just trying to round out the university.
2
Wow!
"The NY Times has a bias of going to bat for Asians. " " Asians are master test takers. They prep extensively for the SAT exam and so the exam is not a reliable indicator of their level of intelligence. I would not be surprised that they use ghost writers for their essays."
New York is reasonably diverse -- you may find that you change your preconceptions if you go out and meet more different sorts of people.
"The NY Times has a bias of going to bat for Asians. " " Asians are master test takers. They prep extensively for the SAT exam and so the exam is not a reliable indicator of their level of intelligence. I would not be surprised that they use ghost writers for their essays."
New York is reasonably diverse -- you may find that you change your preconceptions if you go out and meet more different sorts of people.
2
Still waiting for that elusive Jewish Asian to show up here with a comment....
4
Well, since you asked--my child is of Jewish and South Asian heritage. Got into and graduated from an Ivy.
FYI: You might be surprised at how many young people there are these days of Jewish and Asian heritage.
FYI: You might be surprised at how many young people there are these days of Jewish and Asian heritage.
5
The most famous one spent senior year at Columbia hauling a mattress
1
Grow a pair and go after the legacies and donors instead! And athletes! That is where the real numbers are. C'mon! I dare you!
3
Sadly, Asian parents are making these Ivy leagues as a do or die deal. My son who was interested in Medicine got admission to a 7 year BS+MD program. The competition was fierce, most candidates were valedictorians, had perfect SAT/ACT, GPA scores and all sorts of extra curricular activities etc. As can be expected close to 90% were Asian American applicants. His class had the best students without a discriminatory selection process. The class ended up with almost 75% Asian, majority being South Asian. What is wrong with that picture? Don't we need the cream of the country as our healers?
5
This whole diversity thing is getting out of hand, not just at Harvard, but in all our universities. First, colleges need affirmative action to increase diversity. Many of the less qualified minority admits find themselves unable to compete with the Asian and white kids on campus, so the schools had to create BS majors in ethnic/gender studies so they can graduate. That follows of course, with the need for diversity in the teaching rank, so more teachers of color also need to be hired, to teach those ethnic and gender studies classes.
But then the private sector needs to hire people with the right skills, so all the Asian and white kids who major in finance and STEM get hired, while the minorities with Harvard degrees in ethnic/gender studies get left out in the cold unless they work for the government. So that of course had to be remedied, the result is all medium to large size firms now have a "Director of Diversity", 99% of whom are black women, to ensure that all companies are now observing race quotas in hiring.
Where I find it most ridiculous is when medical schools begin to practice affirmative action and admit less qualified candidates simply because of their race. People's lives are now at stake. Colleges are playing with fire. It's just a matter of time before we get the first lawsuit by a patient against an under qualified doctor graduated by one of our top medical schools for botching an operation or giving him the wrong treatment.
But then the private sector needs to hire people with the right skills, so all the Asian and white kids who major in finance and STEM get hired, while the minorities with Harvard degrees in ethnic/gender studies get left out in the cold unless they work for the government. So that of course had to be remedied, the result is all medium to large size firms now have a "Director of Diversity", 99% of whom are black women, to ensure that all companies are now observing race quotas in hiring.
Where I find it most ridiculous is when medical schools begin to practice affirmative action and admit less qualified candidates simply because of their race. People's lives are now at stake. Colleges are playing with fire. It's just a matter of time before we get the first lawsuit by a patient against an under qualified doctor graduated by one of our top medical schools for botching an operation or giving him the wrong treatment.
5
Glad to see many commenters are pointing out that the real major stumbling block to truly merit-based admissions for Asian-American college applicants lies with the tendency of top universities to relax admissions standards for legacy applicants--the overwhelming majority of whom are white.
Fact: In the entire 381-year history of Harvard University, not one African-American has attended that institution as a fourth-generation undergraduate. Football player Jonathan Martin (who gained some notoriety a few years back owing to bullying at the hands of teammate Richie Incognito) would have been the first to do so in 2009 had he not chosen Stanford instead. Blacks have been residing in what is now the USA since the year 1619, some 17 years before Harvard was founded. How many whites have attended Harvard as fourth-generation undergraduates? I don't know, but in the state of Massachusetts alone the number going back to the 18th century must surely be in the hundreds, maybe thousands.
Asian-Americans, do NOT fall into the trap of moaning about blacks and Latinos taking your undergraduate spots at HYP. That's simply not true. And the already privileged status of Asian-Americans doesn't earn you sympathy. Another fact: A greater percent of Indian-American women (over age ca. 25) have a postgraduate university degree than white American men (over a certain minimum age) have an undergraduate degree. That is staggering, totally upending notions about gender & racial discrimination.
Fact: In the entire 381-year history of Harvard University, not one African-American has attended that institution as a fourth-generation undergraduate. Football player Jonathan Martin (who gained some notoriety a few years back owing to bullying at the hands of teammate Richie Incognito) would have been the first to do so in 2009 had he not chosen Stanford instead. Blacks have been residing in what is now the USA since the year 1619, some 17 years before Harvard was founded. How many whites have attended Harvard as fourth-generation undergraduates? I don't know, but in the state of Massachusetts alone the number going back to the 18th century must surely be in the hundreds, maybe thousands.
Asian-Americans, do NOT fall into the trap of moaning about blacks and Latinos taking your undergraduate spots at HYP. That's simply not true. And the already privileged status of Asian-Americans doesn't earn you sympathy. Another fact: A greater percent of Indian-American women (over age ca. 25) have a postgraduate university degree than white American men (over a certain minimum age) have an undergraduate degree. That is staggering, totally upending notions about gender & racial discrimination.
5
It's hard to determine if someone has grit or is more than capable. I am the laziest person I know and I have had high GPAS undergrad, graduate school and law school. SATs, LSATs top 5% too. But for now these kind of metrics are what is used. I know from experience that these metrics shouldn't count as much as they do.
3
Let's start by acknowledging that Mr. Jia (and his Asian-American cohorts ) suffered discrimination. If a student with his sterling resume had been black, Hispanic, Native American (or perhaps white) he or she would have been easily admitted to Harvard and the other Ivy League schools. The SOLE reason Mr. Jia was not admitted was his ethnicity. That is a text book example of racial discrimination. The question is whether such discrimination in support of an ostensible greater good is good public policy. I will leave that debate to the readers.
149
Every year at least a handful of kids get accepted to all 8 Ivies plus Stanford. Almost everyone of them is black, many are immigrant children of African doctors rather than descendants of slaves. An overwhelming majority of minority admits at the Ivies are biracial children of upper middle class black or Hispanic families, few if any are from under privileged backgrounds. Meanwhile, most of them have what can only be considered moderately good SAT scores (2100-2200 compared to 2300-2400 for Asian kids who get rejected by all these schools).
8
Harvard’s class of 2021 has 2,056 members, is 14.6 percent African-American, 22.2 percent Asian-American, 11.6 percent Hispanic and 2.5 percent Native American or Pacific Islander. It received a record number of 39,506 applications.
Asian-Americans make up 5.6% of the US population. Are there not two thousand Asian-Americans out there who have near perfect SAT/GPA scores and have impressive extra-curricular activities?
It's highly unlikely that anyone, least of all a committee, is discriminating based on ethnicity. Have you been to Cambridge or Harvard? As a current Harvard grad student, full-time employed biopharma managing professional and resident of the republic of Cambridge, I can tell you that the amount of sleep that our citizens daily lose over being politically correct is borderline masochistic - without it being a professional goal.
Asian-Americans make up 5.6% of the US population. Are there not two thousand Asian-Americans out there who have near perfect SAT/GPA scores and have impressive extra-curricular activities?
It's highly unlikely that anyone, least of all a committee, is discriminating based on ethnicity. Have you been to Cambridge or Harvard? As a current Harvard grad student, full-time employed biopharma managing professional and resident of the republic of Cambridge, I can tell you that the amount of sleep that our citizens daily lose over being politically correct is borderline masochistic - without it being a professional goal.
2
I lived in Cambridge for three years while attending Harvard Law so I am familiar with political correctness. However, PC these days means lowering the usual entry qualifications such as scholastic aptitude and classroom performance for disadvantaged minorities. This may be good public policy but let's not pretend it is not discrimination against "advantaged" minorities. Case in point: When California banned racial preferences in the state university system, Asian-American attendance skyrocketed while African-American plummeted. Permit me a legal phrase as my coda: Res Ipsa Loquitur
4
My grandfather attended Harvard and was thrown out not once, but twice.
He then went on to write for Groucho Marx, Jack Benny, W.C. Fields and Fred Allen to name a few. He was also a columnist and cartoon editor for a national magazine.
And that's all you need to know about Harvard.
He then went on to write for Groucho Marx, Jack Benny, W.C. Fields and Fred Allen to name a few. He was also a columnist and cartoon editor for a national magazine.
And that's all you need to know about Harvard.
5
Yes, some amazingly successful people have left Harvard for various reasons. But the fact remains, Harvard picked them in the first place--I think they know what they're doing.
2
Universities should be allowed to manage admissions for diversity. Robotically chasing perfect test scores and GPAs does not a leader make.
8
If Ivy League, or other schools used meritocracy as the only standard, all top schools will have 90+% Asians today, and maybe can only be replaced by robots in the future. They are simply that good when it comes to scores.
3
This is an idiotic and racist comment. Asians are good at "scores" because they value education and hard work. I would argue that if they did not have to score an additional 200 points on the SAT, they would have more time to be "well rounded"
10
Part of what makes elite colleges and universities elite is the small percentage of applicants who gain admission. If you're one of hundreds of applicants with perfect scores, extracurriculars, letters, etc. who doesn't get in, it's partly a numbers game.
It's disappointing to me that this group of Asian Americans is joining the effort to dismantle affirmative action and pit minority groups against each other. I want to tell Asian American parents and students, If you don't get into Harvard, it's not the end of the world. Really. Get some perspective please.
-- from an Asian American who didn't get into Harvard or Yale
It's disappointing to me that this group of Asian Americans is joining the effort to dismantle affirmative action and pit minority groups against each other. I want to tell Asian American parents and students, If you don't get into Harvard, it's not the end of the world. Really. Get some perspective please.
-- from an Asian American who didn't get into Harvard or Yale
111
Great point. Also, studies have shown that after the first year of employment, the college one attended has no bearing on h/his earning potential because the playing field becomes leveled based upon merit, performance. So, this obsession with so called elite colleges is probably more about ego and bragging rights than graduates' earning potential and careers.
3
Affirmative action is well-intentioned, but has proved to be a failure. It is morally wrong to discriminate against any members of our societies; it is economically wasteful by misallocating our precious resources on something that does not work. Before long, tension will be mounting in the society. Before long, America will lose its competitiveness in the world. Trump's election reflects that many have realized our problems, including affirmative actions.
BTW, I am not a Trump supporter; I am fair and open; and I am in the business. People are not equally gifted in almost all aspects of life. Talents are far and few in between. We should protect our talents. This is the right thing to do and this is the smart thing to do.
BTW, I am not a Trump supporter; I am fair and open; and I am in the business. People are not equally gifted in almost all aspects of life. Talents are far and few in between. We should protect our talents. This is the right thing to do and this is the smart thing to do.
8
Discrimination based on race is wrong. Martin Luther King said that.
7
Nobody mentions the biggest and most destructive Affirmative Action program: The admission of hopelessly unqualified rich white kids whose relatives went to these colleges. The so-called 'legacies' serve to keep endowments obscenely high and to drag down the intellectual rigor that made these places great centers of learning in the first place.
I've asked my Representative to submit a very simple, clear bill:
"No school that gives preference in admissions to relatives of alumni shall be eligible to receive federal funds."
Dan Kravitz
I've asked my Representative to submit a very simple, clear bill:
"No school that gives preference in admissions to relatives of alumni shall be eligible to receive federal funds."
Dan Kravitz
238
You are correct -- some of the mediocre legacies even get elected president.
Bush 2 and Trump come to mind.
Bush 2 and Trump come to mind.
4
Agreed. But those admissions are low to mid single digit %.
1
My representative in Congress went to Duke (that school as represented here as 2nd tier!!!) married well, and has $11 million to spend in the 2018 election. Another area representative was reelected by the smallest number of votes in any of the races across the country. He was only reelected because he sent a last-minute brochure to every constituent saying how close he was to President Obama!!! He also has a very large amount of money in the bank which he's spend getting reelected.
Car alarms are to Darrel Issa what medical devices are to Scott Peters.
My undergraduate alma mater is UC Berkeley. Once upon a time, "legacies" who were admitted from out-of-state paid in-state tuition. But now undocumented immigrants who graduate from a California high schools pay in-state tuition. Only 5% of those admitted to next year's class at Cal are African-American. At Harvard that percentage is %15 percent -- so I'm apposed to cookie cutter criteria. I think Title IX covers up much of the favoritism in the current system. Both Cal and Stanford had 500 athletic scholarships for white males, mostly. White women pushed out some African-American males when the formula was "reformed and reconstituted." Male teams were eliminated while female teams received "university" -- no longer "legacy" -- funding.
Baseball and men's gymnastics were eliminated until lots more money was extorted.
Car alarms are to Darrel Issa what medical devices are to Scott Peters.
My undergraduate alma mater is UC Berkeley. Once upon a time, "legacies" who were admitted from out-of-state paid in-state tuition. But now undocumented immigrants who graduate from a California high schools pay in-state tuition. Only 5% of those admitted to next year's class at Cal are African-American. At Harvard that percentage is %15 percent -- so I'm apposed to cookie cutter criteria. I think Title IX covers up much of the favoritism in the current system. Both Cal and Stanford had 500 athletic scholarships for white males, mostly. White women pushed out some African-American males when the formula was "reformed and reconstituted." Male teams were eliminated while female teams received "university" -- no longer "legacy" -- funding.
Baseball and men's gymnastics were eliminated until lots more money was extorted.
You have to be like Jared and have your daddy buy your way into Harvard.
8
Some people believe Asian/Asian-American college admission is suffering only because of the admission of African-Americans and Latinos. They haven't considered that with changes from the Justice Department/lawsuits, white students will now be considered as preventing many Asians from admission.
From the article, citing 2013 enrollment: "Asian-Americans made up 34.8 percent of the student body at the University of California, Los Angeles, 32.4 percent at Berkeley and 42.5 percent at Caltech."
Watch these same people change their minds when they see the above numbers - and larger - nationwide, in the Ivy League, Stanford, or the top-rated publics in each state. They talk the talk now because they don't feel white students will be affected - just the black/brown ones who "don't deserve" admission. When they realize the student bodies nationwide - based on scores and grades - may be Asian majority or near-majority - that attitude will change.
Then just sit back and watch the (hypocritical yet predictable) uproar begin about the white students left behind. Some are also ignoring how top colleges also select white students (among others) for geographical diversity - meaning a well-rounded white student from rural North Dakota who shows potential might be accepted to Princeton for that reason. They're so focused on race they ignore that admission for geographical diversity/for excellence in sports - lots of white students play lots of sports, small and large - will be gone.
From the article, citing 2013 enrollment: "Asian-Americans made up 34.8 percent of the student body at the University of California, Los Angeles, 32.4 percent at Berkeley and 42.5 percent at Caltech."
Watch these same people change their minds when they see the above numbers - and larger - nationwide, in the Ivy League, Stanford, or the top-rated publics in each state. They talk the talk now because they don't feel white students will be affected - just the black/brown ones who "don't deserve" admission. When they realize the student bodies nationwide - based on scores and grades - may be Asian majority or near-majority - that attitude will change.
Then just sit back and watch the (hypocritical yet predictable) uproar begin about the white students left behind. Some are also ignoring how top colleges also select white students (among others) for geographical diversity - meaning a well-rounded white student from rural North Dakota who shows potential might be accepted to Princeton for that reason. They're so focused on race they ignore that admission for geographical diversity/for excellence in sports - lots of white students play lots of sports, small and large - will be gone.
10
And wait until you throw gender into the mix. Girls are generally more suited to the discipline required in a structured school setting. Based purely on merits, girls should be a growing % of students admitted. Then the howl for protecting white male will grow louder still.
4
I am affirmative on affirmative action because it lays forth the uncomfortable truth that Ivy league institutions are more about producing(and maintaining) elites rather than being inviolable centers of knowledge. At a macro level it improves race relations. A fake representative meritocracy is unfortunately preferable to a real one. Asians, who make up 5% of the population comprising nearly 40% of university positions would be disastrous for everyone.
3
"Asians, who make up 5% of the population comprising nearly 40% of university positions would be disastrous for everyone."
How so?
How so?
3
Immigration from East Asia would be shut down immediately and further immigration from EA would treated as a national security threat. No one like importing a new cognitive elite. Blacks, whites and Hispanics would all rally behind this.
Ms. Choi has it right. Diversity provides an essential element of a full learning experience. Contrary to the assumptions of many here, an elite education is not limited to acquiring the most academic knowledge; it extends to developing the skills and insights that inform a future life of leadership and service.
At Stuyvesant, I was one of a large majority of classmates from backgrounds like my own. As a student at Harvard, my knowledge of the world was broadened immensely by friendships. They included a midwestern farmer, a western rancher, an inner-city African American, a surfer; an orthodox Jew, a devout Catholic, a Mormon; two friends who had spent a year in France during high school and a student from South America; children of prominent authors, officials, and businessmen and children from extremely modest backgrounds; two friends from Georgia, one white and one black, who painted totally different pictures of the same home town; a future leader of the Japanese-American community; students whose last names were also seen on college buildings. What we had in common was humility, not entitlement. As we shared our stories, we all expressed wonderment that we were where we were.
Members of my family experienced the impact of Jewish quotas. The situation then was unlike today. Until Jews applied in large numbers, there was no competitive admissions process at all; Harvard was a rite of passage among the most wealthy and there had been room for all applicants.
At Stuyvesant, I was one of a large majority of classmates from backgrounds like my own. As a student at Harvard, my knowledge of the world was broadened immensely by friendships. They included a midwestern farmer, a western rancher, an inner-city African American, a surfer; an orthodox Jew, a devout Catholic, a Mormon; two friends who had spent a year in France during high school and a student from South America; children of prominent authors, officials, and businessmen and children from extremely modest backgrounds; two friends from Georgia, one white and one black, who painted totally different pictures of the same home town; a future leader of the Japanese-American community; students whose last names were also seen on college buildings. What we had in common was humility, not entitlement. As we shared our stories, we all expressed wonderment that we were where we were.
Members of my family experienced the impact of Jewish quotas. The situation then was unlike today. Until Jews applied in large numbers, there was no competitive admissions process at all; Harvard was a rite of passage among the most wealthy and there had been room for all applicants.
59
Physics or math doesn't care if the kid sitting next to you is African American, Mormon, Muslim, Catholic or a hick from the rural south. All it cares is you understand the material. The skin color of the person sitting next to you or even you yourself has no bearing on how you learn.
3
Mr. Bauer, I note that nowhere in your description of the valuable diversity that enriched your time at Harvard did you claim it was based on skin color or other superficial physical traits. Surely the type of diversity that matters is that of life experience, not the type evident from applicants' photos.
1
How about, to keep it fair, when considering applications for admission to schools we do not look at race or nationality and instead of using actual names candidates get assigned anonymous numbers or pseudonyms?
6
Remember that standardized tests were originally instituted to discriminate. Then Jews started getting admitted in too high numbers, so we instituted interviews and character evaluations. Ultimately, too many people want to get into Harvard than can be admitted. You need some system, and no system will be 100% fair, though there is always room for improvement. Better to allow a range of people from as many different backgrounds (including race) as possible. Given that Asians are 22% of the Harvard student body and 5% of the US population, I don't see how they're getting the short end of the stick. And I'm Asian.
5
I am sorry, ZL. Ideas such as yours are what have destroyed Asian American communities over the years: Mislabeling of guilt for hardworking and success as undeserving. Asian cultures teach one to work hard and self degrade as virtues. These virtues have caused Asians a lot of grief.
2
How about an admissions process that removes any reference to race, sex, ethnicity, etc? Delete names, addresses, and any other data that might provide information that could bias decisions. Even interviews should be conducted in a "confessional" style, where the individuals couldn't see each other.
This still lets all the subjective factors be considered but without bias towards any group.
This still lets all the subjective factors be considered but without bias towards any group.
3
Elite college admission should generally be based on student's IQ/EQ regardless their race. However, they gave more consideration to students who come from low socio-economical families because these students have to overcome much harder barriers and have less opportunities in order to achieve similar academic/personal performance in high school. These poor students often have their unusual perseverance and drive to achieve success in the life.
5
In 2017 Harvard had 39.5k applications and accepted 2056 students (acceptance rate of 5.2%) and Duke had 34.5k applications with 3100 accepted students (regular admissions 7.2%). Both schools have programs for first generation high achieving students and excellent ethnic diversity- but Harvard’s class of 2020 lists 22% Asian vs Duke 28%.
Duke has a campus in both China and Singapore. Perhaps this influences their decision process in favor of Asian students?
Blacks make up around 12 percent of the student body at
Duke, and this frustrates those who think Duke should adhere to its regional roots and do more.
Duke’s early decision is binding and makes up half of the
freshmen’s class, leaving 31K students to compete for the remaining half. I’ve heard dying your hair blue helps. :)
Duke has a campus in both China and Singapore. Perhaps this influences their decision process in favor of Asian students?
Blacks make up around 12 percent of the student body at
Duke, and this frustrates those who think Duke should adhere to its regional roots and do more.
Duke’s early decision is binding and makes up half of the
freshmen’s class, leaving 31K students to compete for the remaining half. I’ve heard dying your hair blue helps. :)
1
There are glaring injustices in the admissions policies of our top universities.
George W. Bush was admitted to Yale.
Case closed.
Dan Kravitz
George W. Bush was admitted to Yale.
Case closed.
Dan Kravitz
2
Barack Obama was admitted to Columbia and Harvard.
Case closed.
Case closed.
1
You must be joking! W could barely put a coherent sentence together or pronounce difficult words like "nuclear"-- even with a TelePrompTer. He was a proud C student but still got into Harvard Business School. Obama was one of the most eloquent speakers to become president and compared to 43 and 45, there can be no stronger case for affirmative action over legacy admissions to places like UPenn and Harvard.
2
Equating diversity with skin color is as laughable as it is abhorent.
Michelle Obama and Sonia Sotomayor brought meaningful diversity to Princeton. But privileged students of color from wealthy, ellite families...not so much. Base preference on socio-economic class rather than race and this issue largely disappears, and society is far better served. First generation from family to apply to college? Big plus.
Michelle Obama and Sonia Sotomayor brought meaningful diversity to Princeton. But privileged students of color from wealthy, ellite families...not so much. Base preference on socio-economic class rather than race and this issue largely disappears, and society is far better served. First generation from family to apply to college? Big plus.
3
There are things that Jia will never know. How did he come across in his essays and interviews? What if he seemed arrogant, inarticulate, or just plain dull? How were his recommendations? Did he have a genuine passion about any one thing? Merit and diversity go beyond scores, GPA, and race. Schools try to determine how the potential student might contribute to campus life, and how he or she would take advantage of what the school has to offer. I was a white middle-class kid from a so-so public school in the northeast. I was neither a legacy nor an athlete. I was 3rd in my class, had a 4.3 GPA, and a respectable yet unspectacular 1360 out of 1600 on the SAT. I was a dime-a-dozen in many ways, but I had impressive artistic talents and achievements. I was rejected by most of the Ivies but was wait-listed at Yale. I eventually got in. Why? In my on-campus interview, I was articulate and passionate about my interests and about Yale, and I think the admissions officer really “got” who I was. Maybe that nudged me into the eventual YES pile, but I will never know. My essay was a "humor" piece that doesn’t seem so funny 30 years later. That essay and my scores might have hurt my applications, but I will never know. I don't think I would get into Yale today. This I probably know. Throughout high school, I thought my "dream" school was Princeton, but I ended up at Yale, which was exactly the right place for me. This I really know.
6
Caucasian students, like blacks and hispanics need affirmative action. They are underepresented next to Asians relative to their numbers in society. And like with blacks and hispanics this is not because we are any stupider than Asians, but for cultural reasons and the values we place on pleasure relative to work etc.
So do away with affirmative action and quotas and the result will be a dumber Harvard.
So do away with affirmative action and quotas and the result will be a dumber Harvard.
4
This can be viewed as a back-handed compliment. The time had to come when some discriminated minority was no longer thought of that way. Any list of minority is going to change with the times. Welcome to the world of white people who claim reverse discrimination.
Names should be removed from college applications. Applicants should only put numbers on the application for identification.
David Goldberg = 4522
David Chang = 45234
David Lopez = 2352
One's ethnicity should play no part in the application process.
David Goldberg = 4522
David Chang = 45234
David Lopez = 2352
One's ethnicity should play no part in the application process.
6
If an ethnicity's quota already exceeds what is comparable to the group's national percentage, that scenario scores points against their racial discrimination argument. Ethnicities with lower quotas have a stronger argument for being discriminated against.
Investigators on reviewing the applications may find that in a number of cases, lower quota ethnicities scored as high or higher on competitive exams, but lack extracurricular and internships, generally due to low income with little or no resources or connections.
The particular discrimination complaints mentioned here--when taken collectively, not individually--might therefore have an underlying economic/class elitism rather than racist basis. It's difficult to prove unfairness when a higher quota than the group's national percentage is admittted, while other minorities have lower than average.
Investigators on reviewing the applications may find that in a number of cases, lower quota ethnicities scored as high or higher on competitive exams, but lack extracurricular and internships, generally due to low income with little or no resources or connections.
The particular discrimination complaints mentioned here--when taken collectively, not individually--might therefore have an underlying economic/class elitism rather than racist basis. It's difficult to prove unfairness when a higher quota than the group's national percentage is admittted, while other minorities have lower than average.
1
Actually, it's quite easy to prove, Michelle: To gain admission to college, Asian-American students had to score 140 points higher than white students, 270 points higher than Hispanic students, and 450 points higher than black students.
8
And you read all the essays and sat in every interview so know how they all did?
It's disingenuous to just say that California has a "large number of Asian-Americans." In the last full census, California had more than twice the number of Asian Americans than the national average. Yet it would be foolish to suggest that top-tier California schools should are discriminating because they do not have twice the number of Asian Americans than Harvard does.
Ultimately, this involves the nettlesome issue of intent. Historically, meaning from about 1910 to the 1950's, the most competitive universities intentionally discriminated against certain minority groups because they felt that there were "too many" of them and not enough of the traditional white Anglo-Saxon student. Nowadays, the intent is not to discriminate against minority groups, generally, but to discriminate in favor of certain minority groups. While the effect may be similar to the earlier now reviled form of discrimination, the current "discriminatory" intent is a positive one to have a more inclusive and diverse student body and not a less diverse and inclusive one.
Based on Asians being approximately 6.5% of the American population and making up 22.2% of Harvard's freshman class, you could also argue Asians are significantly overrepresented if the idea is that America's elite colleges should reflect what the country as a whole looks like.
3
The top schools should take best students whether high score or not but should not check the racial quota. The top schools should produce the best graduates to maintain the competitiveness of the US. The lower qualified students can go to non-elite college. I don't think there that much difference in colleges. Going to elite graduate schools is more important. Because we did not produce enough high qualified workers, that is the reason we need a lot of better workers from immigrants.
There are 2.4 billion people only in China and India. If 1% are geniuses, according to the Gauss curve, then you have 240 million geniuses who can come to US schools and ace all the scores and then take everyone's jobs.
Drop 1% of the other very numerous Asian countries and you have the population of the US.
This is what happens when immigration into a country opens wide open without any projections on how will the rest of the population be impacted in say, 1o to 50 years.
Drop 1% of the other very numerous Asian countries and you have the population of the US.
This is what happens when immigration into a country opens wide open without any projections on how will the rest of the population be impacted in say, 1o to 50 years.
1% of 2.4 billion is 24 million, not 240 million.
3
1% of 2.4 billion is 24 million.....
2
1% of 2.4 billion is 24 million, not 240 million.
1
It is a bit churlish for Mr. Jia to complain about not being accepted at one elite university, while being accepted at another. He should keep these statistics in mind. In 2016, ivy league universities received a combined 243,000 applications, with nearly 14,000 confirmed acceptances. There are around one millions high school graduates in the US. As a group, the ivy league schools could have had all white, all asian, or all black freshman classes. Like any institution supported by public and private funds, these schools do accept students from wealthy donors, students whose parents attended the university and influential international politicians. Rather then complain, Mr. Jia should move on and accept the fact that he going to one of the top universities in the US. If he does not, he will find life a lot harder in the working world then getting accepted in to an ivy league school.
2
Admissions officers at elite universities are not looking to build a clone army. The math is pretty straight forward. Every year they receive way more applications from qualified students than they can accept. So every year they reject many qualified students who look similar on paper.
The US is roughly 6% Asian, 13% Black, and 17% Latino, and 62% White. If anything, it seems to me that Asians are overrepresented in our elite schools. There are more than enough excellent students of all backgrounds to fill up the Ivy League several times over.
It reeks a bit of privilege and racial bias to assume the Blacks and Latinos don't belong at Harvard.
The US is roughly 6% Asian, 13% Black, and 17% Latino, and 62% White. If anything, it seems to me that Asians are overrepresented in our elite schools. There are more than enough excellent students of all backgrounds to fill up the Ivy League several times over.
It reeks a bit of privilege and racial bias to assume the Blacks and Latinos don't belong at Harvard.
3
I'm an Asian American student, and in a few years, I'm going to face the college admissions process. I know that affirmative action probably hurts me the most, and that I might have to score a little higher on the SAT or get a higher GPA if I want to get into a prestigious school. And yet, I support affirmative action.
Even before I was born, I've had multiple advantages that help my prospects which other students probably will never have. I have 4 legacies to Harvard, including my grandfather, who donates a lot of money each year, and my parents - both of whom work two full-time white collar jobs so that I don't have to lift a finger. I don't need to worry about taking care of my siblings or working to support my family, rather, I can focus on my studies. My family can afford to buy the best books and send me to the best schools and live in the nicest neighborhoods.
So yes, affirmative action may hurt me, but I still know that I'm going to eventually go to a great school and get a great job and be afforded opportunities that others might never have.
The fact is: we don't live in a colorblind world. Anyone who claims otherwise is living in ignorant bliss. The least we can do is offer a hand to minorities who will face discrimination for the rest of their lives.
Also - for the parents/students out there who are getting a little crazy about college admissions, read Frank Bruni's "Where You Go Is Not Who You'll Be". A great book with a good dose of sanity.
Even before I was born, I've had multiple advantages that help my prospects which other students probably will never have. I have 4 legacies to Harvard, including my grandfather, who donates a lot of money each year, and my parents - both of whom work two full-time white collar jobs so that I don't have to lift a finger. I don't need to worry about taking care of my siblings or working to support my family, rather, I can focus on my studies. My family can afford to buy the best books and send me to the best schools and live in the nicest neighborhoods.
So yes, affirmative action may hurt me, but I still know that I'm going to eventually go to a great school and get a great job and be afforded opportunities that others might never have.
The fact is: we don't live in a colorblind world. Anyone who claims otherwise is living in ignorant bliss. The least we can do is offer a hand to minorities who will face discrimination for the rest of their lives.
Also - for the parents/students out there who are getting a little crazy about college admissions, read Frank Bruni's "Where You Go Is Not Who You'll Be". A great book with a good dose of sanity.
10
Your background represents <1% of Asians. It's simply unfair to use your own privileged background to justify discrimination against 99% of Asians who grew up under much harsher circumstance than you.
4
Numbers alone are both good and bad in this discussion.
Whether its the state school or the Ivies, exactly how do you pick.
SAT scores and grades alone are not enough, so these schools try to have a formula to end up with a suitable student body.
In my work experience, your stats do not come close to making the person.
These institutions make their identity by how the select their student body.
Right or wrong, snob or not, in the end, they should.
State schools might be a different proposition, but what Tiger mom would accept that.
Let's face it, college is the starting point, and as we've all seen , anyone can become president.
I will take a hard working, middle of the road kid who has had a real childhood, over a driven 2400 SAT kid on the verge of burnout any day.
One will appreciate the opportunity, the other feel entitled to it.
Whether its the state school or the Ivies, exactly how do you pick.
SAT scores and grades alone are not enough, so these schools try to have a formula to end up with a suitable student body.
In my work experience, your stats do not come close to making the person.
These institutions make their identity by how the select their student body.
Right or wrong, snob or not, in the end, they should.
State schools might be a different proposition, but what Tiger mom would accept that.
Let's face it, college is the starting point, and as we've all seen , anyone can become president.
I will take a hard working, middle of the road kid who has had a real childhood, over a driven 2400 SAT kid on the verge of burnout any day.
One will appreciate the opportunity, the other feel entitled to it.
1
Why is it ALWAYS about Harvard or Stanford or MIT?
Do not Asians (and others) know about other schools in the US or world?
There are other perfectly fine schools to apply to and attend.
Not EVERYONE gets into these very top tier schools, that's just the way it is.
Get over yourselves and move on. Or design your own new schools?
Do not Asians (and others) know about other schools in the US or world?
There are other perfectly fine schools to apply to and attend.
Not EVERYONE gets into these very top tier schools, that's just the way it is.
Get over yourselves and move on. Or design your own new schools?
4
I am amused by the article and the comments. Folks are tying themselves into knots justifying their personal biases about admission criteria to admission-competitive colleges (notice I didn't refer to them as "elite"). It seems to be a very East Coast thing -- these secretive admission criteria to get the racial/economic/holistic/(enter your fave metric here) "balance". Why not just make the broad admission criteria public?
Here on the West Coast, Stanford, I believe, has a baseline GPA/SAT requirement (a reasonable threshold for good students from less-than-ideal backgrounds). After that athletic excellence may matter as much as violin skills or the track record for starting companies in high school or winning the Math Olympiad. Caltech and Harvey Mudd focus on aptitude in science and math.
Our UCs tried to implement every social engineering fad until we outlawed it. Now the "inclusion/equity engineering" is more focused on CSUs. Here's the latest:
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/01/no-intermediate-algebra-no-problem...
I tell my kids not to worry about resume-polishing for college. It's tough enough to find one's true interest while improving one's basic skills (communication, math and science -- the 21st century version of "reading, writing and arithmetic"), and trying to become a better human being with good values :) There are many good colleges, and what matters is the program from which one gets one's last academic degree.
Here on the West Coast, Stanford, I believe, has a baseline GPA/SAT requirement (a reasonable threshold for good students from less-than-ideal backgrounds). After that athletic excellence may matter as much as violin skills or the track record for starting companies in high school or winning the Math Olympiad. Caltech and Harvey Mudd focus on aptitude in science and math.
Our UCs tried to implement every social engineering fad until we outlawed it. Now the "inclusion/equity engineering" is more focused on CSUs. Here's the latest:
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/01/no-intermediate-algebra-no-problem...
I tell my kids not to worry about resume-polishing for college. It's tough enough to find one's true interest while improving one's basic skills (communication, math and science -- the 21st century version of "reading, writing and arithmetic"), and trying to become a better human being with good values :) There are many good colleges, and what matters is the program from which one gets one's last academic degree.
10
Ajit, I don't know whether to laugh or cry:
"Our UCs tried to implement every social engineering fad until we outlawed it. Now the "inclusion/equity engineering" is more focused on CSUs. Here's the latest:
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/01/no-intermediate-algebra-no-problem..."
"Our UCs tried to implement every social engineering fad until we outlawed it. Now the "inclusion/equity engineering" is more focused on CSUs. Here's the latest:
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/01/no-intermediate-algebra-no-problem..."
I still remember what my Jewish math teacher said to me when I was in tears after opening the rejection letter form Harvard: My dear girl, it is not about you. Sometimes you have to the right race in the right time.
It used to be Jews. Now it is Asians. (I am of Asian descent).
It used to be Jews. Now it is Asians. (I am of Asian descent).
31
When I think about the "unfairness" it isn't about me (an Asian) versus someone who is from a much more disadvantaged background - economically, socially, and so on. I'm thinking about my classmates from high school that I grew up with, all of us from upper middle class background, with white collar and highly educated parents, lived in nice suburbs, had resources to prep classes and so on. Why is it that I am judged on a different scale than those kids. I don't see the black kid from an inner city school or a white kid from the Appalachia taking my "spot" - kudos to them for getting far enough to be applying to the top schools with such unfairly limited resources. I'm angry at the classmate that I knew for years who didn't work as hard as me - with worse grades, less extracurricular, and more or less the amount of social sills - and but happened to be a particular race or happened to have an alumni parent having a much easier time getting into the top tier schools.
45
Fascinating that the go-to defense of Affirmative Action in light of the obvious handicap against Asian applicants is a racist scree about how these applicants' Asian-ness makes them "less well rounded" and "less likely to make a difference in the world." Do commenters not realize that in saying these things, they are applying a lower moral worth Asians based on their race, making the commenters racist?
But these racist justifications of Affirmative Action aren't even the biggest problem, because these justifications are made after-the-fact. The truth is that admissions officers and HR departments aren't even thinking about how well-rounded or creative applicants are. They are looking at scores, and sorting those scores based on racial quotas. Which is illegal, as the Supreme Court has ruled over and over again.
So this is the real problem with Affirmative Action; like Communism, the ideal of the system is rendered largely irrelevant by the dysfunctional reality. In Communist countries, the ideal of "we'll share everything," is always quickly belied by the sad reality that government officials steal everything, leaving 90% of the population in subsistence. In the case of Affirmative Action, the ideal of "holistic admissions" is completely belied by the fact admissions officers are actually just filling racial quotas.
But these racist justifications of Affirmative Action aren't even the biggest problem, because these justifications are made after-the-fact. The truth is that admissions officers and HR departments aren't even thinking about how well-rounded or creative applicants are. They are looking at scores, and sorting those scores based on racial quotas. Which is illegal, as the Supreme Court has ruled over and over again.
So this is the real problem with Affirmative Action; like Communism, the ideal of the system is rendered largely irrelevant by the dysfunctional reality. In Communist countries, the ideal of "we'll share everything," is always quickly belied by the sad reality that government officials steal everything, leaving 90% of the population in subsistence. In the case of Affirmative Action, the ideal of "holistic admissions" is completely belied by the fact admissions officers are actually just filling racial quotas.
31
I am so sick and tired of the lazy, outdated, and uneducated claim that discrimination against minority groups (Asian American) is the same. Yes, all groups have faced some form of discrimination, but it doesn't even come close to what African Americans have experienced. For example, although Mexicans were the second largest group to be lynched, they could contact the Mexican government; African Americans had no such resources. Discrimination faced by Asian Americans doesn't come close to slavery and Jim Crow. On top of that, Cold War foreign policy led white Americans to be kinder to Asian Americans while still discriminating against African Americans. And considering the fact that most Asians in the USA came after 1965, they have no ties to the discrimination faced by Asian Americans in the country prior to that year.
5
Having all their property striped and put forcibly in Internment camps ~70 years ago is not adequate for Japanese American descendants to be qualified for Affirmative Action? As to your second point, if you believe that most Asians came to the US after 1965, then should you be against Affirmative Action for the tens of millions of African or Hispanic immigrants that have immigrated since then as well?
3
I've searched and searched, and I can't find anyone here claiming that Asian Americans have faced the same discrimination as other groups. Just people arguing that there's no justification for discriminating against any people of color. Both the Trump administration and these elite college are trying to pit people of color against each other, and apparently some people are taking the bait.
1
According to you, is there some kind of threshold of historical suffering that a group must endure before they earn the right to be free of racist prejudice?
3
This has been going on for many years. Asian Americans are not among the unrepresented minorities in the US academia. They compete with the white majority but very few of them have legacy that many of the white applicants do. So in spite of their academic achievements, they are rejected. Often these students transfer to the school of their choice later. They transfer with a perfect GPA and graduate with the same perfect GPA form the schools that had rejected them!
2
Admission to any university is not like winning the lottery, where you have an absolute claim based on some system of choosing connected to your grades, etc. While GPA, extra-curricular interest, community service, etc are all important, they aren't completely definitional, especially in young people and even more especially where there is a known system to be gamed.
The point of the process from the standpoint of the University is to admit those who are qualified to learn there, as well as providing a student body that is diverse so that it exposes young scholars to a wide variety of opinions and thought processes.
Looking at Harvard's admissions, Asian-Americans are significantly over-represented relative to the US population in past admissions. Demanding that this number be further grown would not remedy discrimination past or present, but would grant a group right to be over-represented among Harvard students. That sounds a lot like what the plaintffs called out as Harvard's fault, so I'm not sure more of the same would benefit the school's goals, which must be balanced against the individual right to admission that the plaintiffs expand.
Then there's the big fish - small pond take on things. Going to a "lesser" school if qualified for Harvard might actually benefit one's career by giving an opportunity to stand-out at Duke that may not have happened at Cambridge. The fractions of test scores often don't define us as well as who we land among and what we make of that.
The point of the process from the standpoint of the University is to admit those who are qualified to learn there, as well as providing a student body that is diverse so that it exposes young scholars to a wide variety of opinions and thought processes.
Looking at Harvard's admissions, Asian-Americans are significantly over-represented relative to the US population in past admissions. Demanding that this number be further grown would not remedy discrimination past or present, but would grant a group right to be over-represented among Harvard students. That sounds a lot like what the plaintffs called out as Harvard's fault, so I'm not sure more of the same would benefit the school's goals, which must be balanced against the individual right to admission that the plaintiffs expand.
Then there's the big fish - small pond take on things. Going to a "lesser" school if qualified for Harvard might actually benefit one's career by giving an opportunity to stand-out at Duke that may not have happened at Cambridge. The fractions of test scores often don't define us as well as who we land among and what we make of that.
5
It's a university, so the "over-representation" of intellectually prepared people versus their whatever races' percentages in the general population is justified.
1
I wasn't arguing that the existing over-representation was inequitable. Rather, I was arguing it's hard to make the case that Harvard hasn't already done what the plaintiff desires, extending admission to Asian-Americans at rates considerably above their representation in the populace. Plaintiff wants that extended to include the 22% plus them.
Given the limited number of space at Harvard, one could probably take the qualified candidates of most any race and fill that incoming class with them alone. That's not going to happen, but it's one possible extension of granting a decision that required Harvard to take every qualified candidate of a particular race.
Given that Harvard applicants are the cream of the crop, while their test scores, evaluations, essay's whatever are probably all top notch, likely all in the upper 1% of nationwide applicants, Harvard's choice isn't about the absolute top of the scoring, where the next 100 applicants are all within 1% of each top scorer. There's enough room for normal variance in test taking on any particular day that it really is hard to make the argument that any of those 101 applicants is really less qualified than the one chosen for admission. In other words, students may feel that score is absolutely an empirical difference of vast significance, when admissions knows it's a tiny and difficult to parse difference. Other factors are important enough that these also count in making the marginal test differences less than meets the eye.
Given the limited number of space at Harvard, one could probably take the qualified candidates of most any race and fill that incoming class with them alone. That's not going to happen, but it's one possible extension of granting a decision that required Harvard to take every qualified candidate of a particular race.
Given that Harvard applicants are the cream of the crop, while their test scores, evaluations, essay's whatever are probably all top notch, likely all in the upper 1% of nationwide applicants, Harvard's choice isn't about the absolute top of the scoring, where the next 100 applicants are all within 1% of each top scorer. There's enough room for normal variance in test taking on any particular day that it really is hard to make the argument that any of those 101 applicants is really less qualified than the one chosen for admission. In other words, students may feel that score is absolutely an empirical difference of vast significance, when admissions knows it's a tiny and difficult to parse difference. Other factors are important enough that these also count in making the marginal test differences less than meets the eye.
1
I support Students For Fair Admissions' actions against North Carolina and Texas, as those are public universities and must offer equal admissions criteria to all. Harvard, as a private school, should be allowed to set its admissions policies however it sees fit.
3
So you would be fine if - say - it set its policy to exclude African-Americans as a matter of course, right?
1
As the writer of article said, "under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which forbids racial discrimination in programs that receive federal money." Harvard takes money from the federal government. It needs to follow Title VI. Else, the university should take zero dollars from the government.
1
No answers, just questions. What is college for-- to educate those most likely to benefit or as social laboratories? Racial quotas, economic class quotas, gender quotas, geographic quotas, sexual preference quotas, political affiliation quotas, past "sin" atonement quotas against whomever, major course of study quotas, -- sure there are more. Should we deny foreign students entry and concentrate on our own citizens?
Legacy applicants, connected applicants, etc,. must qualify as all the rest.
The indicator next beyond academic achievement is future goals. Where will all this education be used, what will be the end goal. The answer to that question must be a determinant -- for knowledge without application is useless. And add fervor.
Legacy applicants, connected applicants, etc,. must qualify as all the rest.
The indicator next beyond academic achievement is future goals. Where will all this education be used, what will be the end goal. The answer to that question must be a determinant -- for knowledge without application is useless. And add fervor.
4
Well, it's really simple. All you do is get your dad to donate $2.5 million to Harvard.
11
Sure, let's make universities a strict meritocracy based on scores. That will eliminate a lot of white men who underperform against white women and East Asian-Americans, as well as students from South Asian descent. Wait until white men are a minority in universities (I work in one, and they sure as heck aren't endangered as it stands), then they will be screaming for Affirmative Action, except it will have some creepy name that is cropping for a lot lately, like Patriot-Based Fairness Admissions.
9
Just wondering why more Asians haven't changed their last names to Smith or Jones and marked "other" on the ethnicity line of college applications.
9
I am an African American Alum of Harvard College and Medical School and a graduate of a prestigious prep school. I am a beneficiary of "affirmative action in the 1970's. One of the false assumptions people make is that affirmative action means less smart than others, I have an IQ measured in the genius range, grew up in public housing projects on the gang infested Southside of Chicago and aspired to be a physician at a very young age. There were many just as "gifted" black students from my middle school who never got the opportunity to reach their potential or failed to take advantage of the opportunities that were there. St. Paul's School came recruiting kids at my school because of a connection between a vice principal and an SPS alum. I seized the opportunity and applied and was accepted for 9th grade after initially being rejected, when I applied for the 8th grade. When I got to SPS, I realized that I was at a disadvantage compared to many of my classmates, who had attended the best schools, had financially successful and well educated parents and safe learning environments. Kids at my middle school grew up watching gang battles daily outside our school and worried if we would get shot on the way to and from school. I overcame those inherent disadvantages by the time I reached the 11th grade and became an honors student. Maximizing your GPA/SAT and resume does not mean you have more merit or are smarter than others, more likely you were born into the right family.
17
You are the kind of person whom AA was intended to support. Congratulation of your success. However, people like you in the minority. What happens is that kids similar to your children will use AA far more than the inner city kid, and that makes a mockery of the process and drives the Asian American sense of discrimination highlighted in the article. When Asian Americans see the kids in their own neighborhoods, and high schools picked over them, despite lower scores, lesser extracurricular, and other metrics, sense of being wronged and unfairness is but natural.
1
Quotas are wrong, period. Admission should be based strictly on grades and ability to learn the subject mater. There is no justification for any qualified individual to be denied admission and punished based on some social theories of wrongs comitted in the past to persons they had nothing to do with..
8
Shouldn't the focus be on removing legacy preference for alumni? One can debate the merits of having a diverse class, but there is no reason for legacy preference other than improving schools' endowments.
5
% Legacy admissions are usually in the low to mid single digits.
1
I wonder how Blum and his organization would like to see if legacy kids are as competitive as entering classes are generally. I wonder if the suit will disclose how much Jared's Daddy paid to get Jared in at Harvard.
Could be interesting.
Could be interesting.
2
It would be a tragedy if we were to eliminate affirmative action in college admissions. The Supreme Court has looked at this a number of times, and rightfully concluded that diversity is needed in a quality college/university.
I benefited from affirmative action back in 1962, when I got accepted to the University of Pennsylvania because I played football. Just a dumb jock. Worked hard in college, and applied to U of P's medical school. I was one of the few from undergraduate to get accepted, because they wanted a diverse class. They did not want just high-scoring pre-med students.
I did well, despite being the token dumb jock again. Not many football players in the class of '70. Ended up doing my surgical residency at HUP, and have saved a few lives over the years. Without affirmative action, I might be a coach now!
My oldest son, who also didn't have the top grades in his class, got into Penn Med because he was a good student and an excellent skier for the ski team. He's now a heart surgeon.
Yes, we are white....
I benefited from affirmative action back in 1962, when I got accepted to the University of Pennsylvania because I played football. Just a dumb jock. Worked hard in college, and applied to U of P's medical school. I was one of the few from undergraduate to get accepted, because they wanted a diverse class. They did not want just high-scoring pre-med students.
I did well, despite being the token dumb jock again. Not many football players in the class of '70. Ended up doing my surgical residency at HUP, and have saved a few lives over the years. Without affirmative action, I might be a coach now!
My oldest son, who also didn't have the top grades in his class, got into Penn Med because he was a good student and an excellent skier for the ski team. He's now a heart surgeon.
Yes, we are white....
5
On the subject of Harvard acceptance, I would highly recommend Mr. Jia to consult Mr. Jared Kushner for an advice.
4
It is not a level playing field in access to quality secondary education in this country, period. The luck of the draw---which family you were born into---and the neighborhood context that you grow up in---are significant predictors of your life chances, including if you go to college at all. Conservative critics of college admissions policies refuse to acknowledge or understand this fact--including too many Asian Americans who are as a group much more likely than African Americans or Latinos, to enjoy a privileged economic status as children.
I have some news for the critics--especially the young white and Asian high achievers who think that there could not possibly be someone as smart and talented as they are, with lower SAT scores. You are misinformed, and arrogant. I teach brilliant, creative, and disciplined young kids of color (African American and Latino) who were not given the educational opportunities, academic camps, tennis camps, music lessons, three chances on the SAT etc..etc... and their academic and intellectual potential is just as great as yours, Mr. Jia. College admissions committees know that the deck is stacked against low and moderate income students in this country (including low income white rural kids) and they know that if they only take the kids with the highest standardized test scores, they are going to miss some of the 'best and brightest.'
I have some news for the critics--especially the young white and Asian high achievers who think that there could not possibly be someone as smart and talented as they are, with lower SAT scores. You are misinformed, and arrogant. I teach brilliant, creative, and disciplined young kids of color (African American and Latino) who were not given the educational opportunities, academic camps, tennis camps, music lessons, three chances on the SAT etc..etc... and their academic and intellectual potential is just as great as yours, Mr. Jia. College admissions committees know that the deck is stacked against low and moderate income students in this country (including low income white rural kids) and they know that if they only take the kids with the highest standardized test scores, they are going to miss some of the 'best and brightest.'
2
Are you implying that all African American and Hispanic kids get inferior educations and are low socioeconomic status? I hope not, because that is certainly not the case. There are plenty of poor Asian and White children growing up in compromised environments. We need to stop judging people on their skin color for college admissions and start evaluating individuals based on their life experiences.
2
Might Mr Jais problem have been that he attended Millburn HS? Millburn, Tenafly, Scarsdale.... New Trier outside Chicago, Shaker Heights outside Cleveland, Newton outside Boston... All high income suburbs with schools churning out tons of high achieving and ambitious students. Looked at that way Mr Jai is not Asian but rather an affluent suburban kid. Would Harvard benefit from an over abundance of that demographic?
10
Yes, what high school you attend does play a role, as colleges generally don't accept a bunch of students from the same school district. I was gutted when my best friend applied early decision to the university I had dreamed of going to because I knew it diminished my chances.
Who cares where the admissions applicant from or the color of his or her skin? The question is simply does the intellectual ability of range and depth of measurable academic skills make it a safe bet that the kid will succeed within and not be overmatched by the institution's requirements...
It's not simply determining weather or not the applicant is likely to succeed. I doubt that there was any question that Mr Jai would succeed. The problem is there are only a limited number of slots and filling them requires, at Harvard at least, going beyond your simple test.
yep not only are shades of tans, browns and blacks colors - but so are shades of yellows and greens - and I have news for some folks - guess what - shades of grey and white are colors too. God made all colors in the rainbow - and what is best to represent in campuses are shades of intellect in all hues.
White is a color too. Whenever I hear "colored people" I include all humans.
My response is missing a section, user error. I am in complete agreement with k d w.
You can just say that since xx% of asian-americans applied to Harvard, therefore the same percentage of the admitted students should be asian-american because lots of people apply to Harvard who are categorically unqualified.
I encourage government administrators to focus on the rights of the oppressed. There will always be bias, but every child in America deserves basic school supplies, pen and paper in hand. Let that be the general endeavor and not dwell too much on other issues. One small step that can be taken is for churches to set up tutoring programs. I know one that I set up at a shelter for widows and children. Tutoring is a basic supplement to education.
My father, an Assyrian American (not Jewish), was denied admission to a private university in the 1940's because it had its full quota of Semitic students for that year. This was written in the rejection letter he received. He graduated third in his high school class of 400 students, with an average above 95% in all academic subjects. I’ve seen firsthand the use of race or ethnicity as a weapon against those who may not be considered “white” or “white enough”.
My daughter applied for and received early admission at the University of Chicago. She went on to Harvard, where she is completing a PhD. Throughout the various admissions processes, I urged her not to mention anything about her ethnic background. Her test scores and grades put her well inside the 1% of all applicants, and I wanted to ensure, as much as I could, that her ethnic background would not be used against her.
From one who has seen this chapter before, I applaud the efforts of these Asian American students to fight for the equal opportunities they deserve. We can dress up this issue in terms of "affirmative action", but quotas are quotas. And they're always wrong.
My daughter applied for and received early admission at the University of Chicago. She went on to Harvard, where she is completing a PhD. Throughout the various admissions processes, I urged her not to mention anything about her ethnic background. Her test scores and grades put her well inside the 1% of all applicants, and I wanted to ensure, as much as I could, that her ethnic background would not be used against her.
From one who has seen this chapter before, I applaud the efforts of these Asian American students to fight for the equal opportunities they deserve. We can dress up this issue in terms of "affirmative action", but quotas are quotas. And they're always wrong.
24
But there is also an intangible aspect to admissions -- how compelling the applicant is as a person. These can't be reduced to scores and lists of extracurricular activities. Plus, an in coming class needs a mix of backgrounds and personalities. It's not just a question of which boxes are checked
10
Maybe. However, the results would indicate that white people are more "compelling" if your argument holds true for Harvard. Also how would this be quantified? Based on what side of the bed you woke up on? Or how you felt that day when you were looking at the applicant? Or if you are gullible to be sold on why this person is better than the next based on subjective statements that cannot be verified? I can go to a car dealership and get the most compelling reasons to buy a ford focus as well.
Affirmative action is in place to correct a history of discrimination in the United States against minorities who have suffered over many years. Those minorities are generally African American and Latinos. Most Asians are relative newcomers and thus have not had the history that other minorities have endured in this country.
3
I guess you forgot that the railroads that opened up the west were built by Chinese.
We should prioritize communities that have a long history in the United States over "newcomers"? You sound just like Trump!
Couldn't the same be said of the tens of millions Central/ Southern American or African immigrants and their
descendants, that they don't have the past history of
discrimination to justify Affirmative Action? Also, Asians have had an extremely long history of discrimination in this country from Immigration bans, exploitation on railroads, internment camps, as well as discriminatory housing covenants.
descendants, that they don't have the past history of
discrimination to justify Affirmative Action? Also, Asians have had an extremely long history of discrimination in this country from Immigration bans, exploitation on railroads, internment camps, as well as discriminatory housing covenants.
I have interviewed for my alma mater, one of the "top schools" mentioned here, for a number of years, and I have seen plenty of kids with these top scores and massive extracurriculars not get in. Some I supported and some I definitely did not. You can have high test scores and be president of the Latin Club (as if that were relevant) but also be a complete jerk. I know a lot of really smart people who are very aware of their gifts and won't let you forget it. I am happy if these people go to Duke. I also know a bunch of very smart people who are humble, honest, hardworking, and generous. And the latter group has universally succeeded in life. As such, universities need to consider the whole individual, not just the one on paper. In person interviews are critical in that effort, and can make a big difference in application outcomes. Maybe some of these rejectees are just not that personable or interesting in person. Or are book smart but not able to go outside of the box.
We have had some issues with recently graduated asian interns in my office. they are so conditioned to being #1 that they cannot deal with being wrong. ever. and in a business where we are wrong a lot, and have to learn from mistakes, that is not a good attribute. "smart" is not all its cracked up to be, in isolation. there are so many other elements that have to go along with it to succeed. maybe universities have figured this out.
We have had some issues with recently graduated asian interns in my office. they are so conditioned to being #1 that they cannot deal with being wrong. ever. and in a business where we are wrong a lot, and have to learn from mistakes, that is not a good attribute. "smart" is not all its cracked up to be, in isolation. there are so many other elements that have to go along with it to succeed. maybe universities have figured this out.
6
So sorry to hear about the "issues" you've had with Asians! Anyone who thinks prejudice against Asian Americans doesn't exist just needs to read your comment.
3
"All other things the same:" The Princeton study that has been mentioned by commenters here concluded that Asian-Americans had to score 150 points higher on the SATs than white students in order to have the same odds of admittance, all other things the same. In other words, the study used statistics to compare young people who differed only in race. In that context, any discussion of the shortcomings of Asian-American students is irrelevant. In light of the fact that the majority of such comments here make use of racial stereotypes, those comments are not only irrelevant but also simply unacceptable.
9
The problem here is not Harvard's well intentioned purpose to create diversity, but the American obsession with Ivy-league institutions. Its seems like it doesn't matter what your degree is in or how well you do or your personal attributes, what really counts is where you went. But we know that this is often really a matter of money and connections (Trump springs to mind). So to Mr Jia - stop whining, go somewhere else and get your degree, then be great at it. If advertising that you are a Harvard graduate was going to make the difference in how you progressed in life then you have sorely missed the point of professionalism, and probably adulthood as well.
11
One point that needs to be made is that SAT scores and GPA are not the be all and end all. When I look around at my friends, a couple decades out of college, who have achieved the most so many other factors-- talent, persistence, savvy, street smarts, ability to adapt loom larger than those two numbers.
3
Harvard is a private university and can set any criteria for admission the leadership of Harvard sees fit. Other private universities do the same thing. For example, part of Liberty University's admission process is to "Write a 200-400 word essay on the following: How will your personal faith and beliefs allow you to contribute to Liberty’s mission to develop Christ-centered leaders?" (http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=37732) Clearly that excludes numerous highly qualified students who do not hold the religious views Liberty seeks to promote (and which is its prerogative to do).
If Harvard believes a well diversified student body is appropriate to its institutional goals, it has the right to select students in furtherance of that goal.
If Harvard believes a well diversified student body is appropriate to its institutional goals, it has the right to select students in furtherance of that goal.
1
Harvard uses federal grants.
The question is, what do you think Harvard's agenda is? They enjoy the reputation of being a rigorous university -- that if you graduate from there that means you are the smartest, best candidate for a job in your field.
But that is simply not true. What it means is that your parents could buy your way into the university and then can buy you the degree even you can't earn it.
Jared Kushner and Bush Jr are prime examples. They were mediocre to poor students in high school but both were allowed into Harvard and then to graduate with a degree they did not have the intelligence to earn.
So, tell me what Harvard's agenda is? Do they want the world to think they're the most rigorous university where all graduates are at the very apex of intelligence and character? If so, they've gotten that reputation by playing down how they reject very intelligent and qualified students for people like Kushner and Bush. And they do that all the time. These are not the only two examples.
But that is simply not true. What it means is that your parents could buy your way into the university and then can buy you the degree even you can't earn it.
Jared Kushner and Bush Jr are prime examples. They were mediocre to poor students in high school but both were allowed into Harvard and then to graduate with a degree they did not have the intelligence to earn.
So, tell me what Harvard's agenda is? Do they want the world to think they're the most rigorous university where all graduates are at the very apex of intelligence and character? If so, they've gotten that reputation by playing down how they reject very intelligent and qualified students for people like Kushner and Bush. And they do that all the time. These are not the only two examples.
Is your point with legacy admissions, political admissions, billionaire admissions or mass discrimination?
By "agenda", are you suggesting that there is a Harvard committee that gets together to discuss discrimination tactics, be it openly of furtively?
By "agenda", are you suggesting that there is a Harvard committee that gets together to discuss discrimination tactics, be it openly of furtively?
“He applied to 14 colleges, including Duke, Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Rutgers, New York University, Georgetown and the University of Pennsylvania.”
“He applied to 14 colleges, including Duke, Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Rutgers, New York University, Georgetown and the University of Pennsylvania.”
“He applied to 14 colleges, including Duke, Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Rutgers, New York University, Georgetown and the University of Pennsylvania.”
My comment is perhaps off-major-topic, since it is unrelated to ethnicity, but 14 college applications (reminds me of the yearly reports of students who brag about acceptance to all 8 Ivies) should ideally be a clue to admissions committees to look askance at these particular applicants—if only they had that information. I don’t know if the universal application concept is still intact, but if so, maybe selective schools should drop it, making it a little harder for students who aren’t really serious about those individual schools.
“He applied to 14 colleges, including Duke, Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Rutgers, New York University, Georgetown and the University of Pennsylvania.”
“He applied to 14 colleges, including Duke, Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Rutgers, New York University, Georgetown and the University of Pennsylvania.”
My comment is perhaps off-major-topic, since it is unrelated to ethnicity, but 14 college applications (reminds me of the yearly reports of students who brag about acceptance to all 8 Ivies) should ideally be a clue to admissions committees to look askance at these particular applicants—if only they had that information. I don’t know if the universal application concept is still intact, but if so, maybe selective schools should drop it, making it a little harder for students who aren’t really serious about those individual schools.
1
The classic Internal vs. External Attribution Theory. When did we become such an externally driven society? Perhaps the young man is simply a sore loser and is unable to identify his personal attributes that may have led to the outcome he received. Perhaps it is inside of us. The lesson is, how do I accept and move on to make the most and best of what I was given. The lesson is, what have I learned about myself. The lesson is NOT...who can I blame and sue! Ugh!
1
I am Asian American and I graduated from an Ivy League university 20+ years ago. I grew up in an upper-middle class suburb with two professional parents, able and willing to fund my education and anything related to it. I excelled academically, participated in a bunch of extracurricular activities, and aced my standardized tests, so naturally I had my choice of colleges. However, back in the late 80s, there weren't as many like me applying to the US's top universities.
Fast forward to 2017, and I dare say there are more than a few Asian-American high school students like me applying to the top schools. On paper, perhaps many of them deserve to be admitted to the 8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc. But frankly, how many straight A, violin/piano playing, tennis racquet-swinging, tiger-mom raised kids does a school need?
American universities (indeed all universities from Ivies to community colleges) need to reflect American society, which means schools need to consider class, income, race, ethnicity (distinctly different from race), sexual orientation, disability, etc.
Just my two cents . . .
Fast forward to 2017, and I dare say there are more than a few Asian-American high school students like me applying to the top schools. On paper, perhaps many of them deserve to be admitted to the 8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc. But frankly, how many straight A, violin/piano playing, tennis racquet-swinging, tiger-mom raised kids does a school need?
American universities (indeed all universities from Ivies to community colleges) need to reflect American society, which means schools need to consider class, income, race, ethnicity (distinctly different from race), sexual orientation, disability, etc.
Just my two cents . . .
9
A comment about the following quote:
"Harvard’s class of 2021 is 14.6 percent African-American, 22.2 percent Asian-American, 11.6 percent Hispanic and 2.5 percent Native American or Pacific Islander, according to data on the university’s website."
It is interesting (and disturbing too) that Harvard does not explicitly note the percentages of White Americans and only notes minorities. I've seen this with a lot of reports from other schools as well (i.e. omitting the exact number that represents Whites). In making this invisible, it makes it look like Asians have the highest rate while clearly White Americans far outweighs in numbers. It also has potential to create tensions among minorities (e.g. Asians pointing fingers at other minorities and vice versa for "losing" their spots in schools).
To be really fair according to affirmative action, Harvard (and other schools) should not diminish Asians' or other minorities' numbers but decrease the percentages of White Americans!
"Harvard’s class of 2021 is 14.6 percent African-American, 22.2 percent Asian-American, 11.6 percent Hispanic and 2.5 percent Native American or Pacific Islander, according to data on the university’s website."
It is interesting (and disturbing too) that Harvard does not explicitly note the percentages of White Americans and only notes minorities. I've seen this with a lot of reports from other schools as well (i.e. omitting the exact number that represents Whites). In making this invisible, it makes it look like Asians have the highest rate while clearly White Americans far outweighs in numbers. It also has potential to create tensions among minorities (e.g. Asians pointing fingers at other minorities and vice versa for "losing" their spots in schools).
To be really fair according to affirmative action, Harvard (and other schools) should not diminish Asians' or other minorities' numbers but decrease the percentages of White Americans!
3
Asian-Americans are only 5.6 percent of the U.S. population, but 22.2 percent of those admitted to the current Harvard class are Asian-Americans. That doesn't sound like discrimination. especially when you are a world-renown university seeking a diverse student body both nationally and internationally. It seems that facts matter, and, if anything, Harvard may be sacrificing diversity by admitting too many Asian-Americans.
4
It's a university, for heaven's sake. It's a place meant for the intellectually prepared.
Comments that Asian Americans are admitted to college in lower numbers despite higher test scores because of excessive obedience, “tiger moms”, and a lack of creativity, independent thinking and passion are rooted in age old stereotypes against Asians that are quite frankly racist.
These negative stereotypes against Asians have persisted for decades, but because of the relative success of Asian Americans in US society, people rarely think twice about perpetuating these stereotypes. The stereotypes against Asians engender serious real life consequences, including fueling war propaganda, sexual exploitation, and justifying discrimination in the work place and in college admissions. I challenge all people who subscribe to the stereotypes above to educate themselves on Asian American history, and do some independent thinking themselves as to why they might subscribe to certain stereotypes against Asians.
The idea that it is not discrimination but some cultural deficiency among Asians that lead to these admissions disparities appears puzzlingly racist on its face. Claiming Asians do not perform as well because of a group characteristic they share is the definition of racism. The fact that so many people fail to recognize that on a NYTimes thread is disheartening.
Signed, an Asian American ivy league graduate, not working in a math or science-related field.
These negative stereotypes against Asians have persisted for decades, but because of the relative success of Asian Americans in US society, people rarely think twice about perpetuating these stereotypes. The stereotypes against Asians engender serious real life consequences, including fueling war propaganda, sexual exploitation, and justifying discrimination in the work place and in college admissions. I challenge all people who subscribe to the stereotypes above to educate themselves on Asian American history, and do some independent thinking themselves as to why they might subscribe to certain stereotypes against Asians.
The idea that it is not discrimination but some cultural deficiency among Asians that lead to these admissions disparities appears puzzlingly racist on its face. Claiming Asians do not perform as well because of a group characteristic they share is the definition of racism. The fact that so many people fail to recognize that on a NYTimes thread is disheartening.
Signed, an Asian American ivy league graduate, not working in a math or science-related field.
256
Agreed - the comments on this page are stunningly racist and rooted in stereotypes. For a "liberal" readership, its sad that the commentators on this item feel free to trade on racist tropes and stereotypes that Asian-Americans have to suffer through everyday, while you all enjoy your "white privilege"
If you want to know why the stereotype exists, I'm Chinese, and I've met a lot of Chinese people my generation and younger, and that stereotype is right >80% of the time. The issue is you attempt to use the stereotype to pre-judge an _individual_ without getting to know this person, but that's why we can that prejudice and look down on it.
1
The discriminatory comments are wrong both in theory and reality. Harvard acceptance committees don't stereotype, especially not using this absurd logic.
This is old news. It's not "quotas" for blacks and Latinos that are keeping Asian-American enrollment numbers lower at top universities than perhaps they ought to be in a purely merit-based system. It's different standards for legacy applicants, who are overwhelmingly white--think the Bushes at Yale, the Trumps (not Donald, whose own parents never went to college, but rather his children) at UPenn, the Kennedys at Harvard, etc.--and who get preferential treatment in the admissions process. People have known about this for decades.
It's really a case of Asian-Americans being the Jews of contemporary America. Again, old news and a familiar story. One hundred or so years ago, Jews migrated in large numbers from the Pale of Settlement to the United States. Fiercely emphasizing education, Jews migrants and their children rapidly outpaced their peers in America's high schools and got admitted to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton with ease. So who felt threatened by this development? The rich WASPs (or might as well be WASPs like the Kennedys) and their mediocre offspring, of course. Same story in 2017 with Asian-Americans.
People who know about this stuff won't fall for the nonsense that it's blacks and Latinos who are taking the spots of Asian-Americans at the Big Three.
It's really a case of Asian-Americans being the Jews of contemporary America. Again, old news and a familiar story. One hundred or so years ago, Jews migrated in large numbers from the Pale of Settlement to the United States. Fiercely emphasizing education, Jews migrants and their children rapidly outpaced their peers in America's high schools and got admitted to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton with ease. So who felt threatened by this development? The rich WASPs (or might as well be WASPs like the Kennedys) and their mediocre offspring, of course. Same story in 2017 with Asian-Americans.
People who know about this stuff won't fall for the nonsense that it's blacks and Latinos who are taking the spots of Asian-Americans at the Big Three.
16
If you happen to be of Asian ethnicity, perhaps you would increase your chances by checking the "other" box on the application, assuming you're not permitted to leave that section blank.
3
If your last name is say, Wang, Nguyen, or Watanabe though, checking the "Other" box likely isn't of much help.
3
I just graduated from one of the mentioned Ivy league institutions. A friend at school and I, both Asian-American, were able to take a look at some of the notes written on our admissions file. I marked "Asian" as my ethnicity and he marked "Other". On his form the admissions officer specifically marked in pen "Asian" to correct for the perceived misidentification. What you suggest does not work in the current system and may actually hurt applicants.
1
What if your Asian kids have what is a customarily a Hispanic last name? Do you try to game the system by checking the "Other" box?
1
This is a RIDICULOUS.
Our top universities (Harvard, Cornell, Princeton, Yale..) are full of Asians.
What's wrong cracking the door open a little for black, hispanic, native American students whose parents can't afford tutors to perfect the kids standardized tests like most Asian parents can do?
This is silly. Asian Americans are the second most well-do do class in this country ( they will surpass whites soon).
It is time to consider others who came before you and who have struggled a bit more than you. Most Asians are getting their rewards too early if you ask most blacks in this country.
Our top universities (Harvard, Cornell, Princeton, Yale..) are full of Asians.
What's wrong cracking the door open a little for black, hispanic, native American students whose parents can't afford tutors to perfect the kids standardized tests like most Asian parents can do?
This is silly. Asian Americans are the second most well-do do class in this country ( they will surpass whites soon).
It is time to consider others who came before you and who have struggled a bit more than you. Most Asians are getting their rewards too early if you ask most blacks in this country.
7
Giving preference in admission to anyone, anytime, anywhere over a more qualified candidate is contrary to the common sense laws of competition and fair play. Once you start doing so, you not only cheat the more qualified student, you open the doors to compromising the education standards for all.
4
You know plenty of Asian-Americans, particularly south east Asians have struggled too?
The generalities in this post are ASTOUNDING and RIDICULOUS
The generalities in this post are ASTOUNDING and RIDICULOUS
6
What's wrong is that it's racist. Not every asian has a tutor. Students should not be given an advantage or disadvantage based on the color of their skin.
2
No reasonable solution to this problem.
Remove looking at things other than scores and non-stop hard work and you will end up with not 20% but 50% Asian Americans at Harvard and the likes. The rest may easily be largely Jews. Leave as it is now, and some one's hard work will get downgraded and diminished either because of the race (call it as it is) or the nebulous liberal concepts about diversity and its crucial role in education.
And let me tell you where are whites in this whole mess - at the very bottom, regular scapegoats.
Remove looking at things other than scores and non-stop hard work and you will end up with not 20% but 50% Asian Americans at Harvard and the likes. The rest may easily be largely Jews. Leave as it is now, and some one's hard work will get downgraded and diminished either because of the race (call it as it is) or the nebulous liberal concepts about diversity and its crucial role in education.
And let me tell you where are whites in this whole mess - at the very bottom, regular scapegoats.
1
Wouldnt a better solution be to give preference to poor people?
I mean, who is the most likely to experience discrimination, a rich black man or a poor black man?
Who is likely to have experienced hardships, a rich white woman or a poor white woman?
Who is likely to have exeperienced the effects of racism and have been powerless to do anything about it, a rich Asian woman or a poor Asian woman?
The answer to all these questions is the poor person. White, black, Asian....being poor is a hardship. Since minorites are disproportionatly poor, helping poor people would also disproportionately help racial minorities as well.
Also, if we are going to talk about hardship and discrimination, why only talk about race? Why arent LGBT people given preference? Why arent Muslims in America given preference, or illegal immigrants? Why not women in general? Why not refugees?
What about intersectionality? If Im a transgender POC should I get double preference? What if Im a white transgender woman who grew up in a household with one parent, but that parent was a successful independent man? What if I havent come out publically yet, should just saying it count? Thats where affirmative action based on identity gets you...
If instead you give preference to poor people, things get much more simple and fair. You arent listed according to victimhood status. If u work hard and are poor, you will be doubly rewarded no matter your identity markers. Thats what makes sense to me.
I mean, who is the most likely to experience discrimination, a rich black man or a poor black man?
Who is likely to have experienced hardships, a rich white woman or a poor white woman?
Who is likely to have exeperienced the effects of racism and have been powerless to do anything about it, a rich Asian woman or a poor Asian woman?
The answer to all these questions is the poor person. White, black, Asian....being poor is a hardship. Since minorites are disproportionatly poor, helping poor people would also disproportionately help racial minorities as well.
Also, if we are going to talk about hardship and discrimination, why only talk about race? Why arent LGBT people given preference? Why arent Muslims in America given preference, or illegal immigrants? Why not women in general? Why not refugees?
What about intersectionality? If Im a transgender POC should I get double preference? What if Im a white transgender woman who grew up in a household with one parent, but that parent was a successful independent man? What if I havent come out publically yet, should just saying it count? Thats where affirmative action based on identity gets you...
If instead you give preference to poor people, things get much more simple and fair. You arent listed according to victimhood status. If u work hard and are poor, you will be doubly rewarded no matter your identity markers. Thats what makes sense to me.
4
Who's life chances are affected more negatively by inequality and discrimination if the "market" is left to regulate itself.....
a poor white man or a poor black man?
a poor white woman or a poor black woman?
a poor white man or a poor black woman?
a poor white man or a poor black man?
a poor white man or a poor white woman?
a poor black man or a poor black woman?
If you understand the point of these questions then you'll understand the point of AfirmAction.
a poor white man or a poor black man?
a poor white woman or a poor black woman?
a poor white man or a poor black woman?
a poor white man or a poor black man?
a poor white man or a poor white woman?
a poor black man or a poor black woman?
If you understand the point of these questions then you'll understand the point of AfirmAction.
I know this will never happen, but part of me wonders if it wouldn't make sense to have the admissions department come up with a pool of students from each year's applicants who past experience suggest could succeed at Harvard (and at similar schools), and just admit them randomly from that pool. I think you could make this pool small enough to contain only very accomplished students, but large enough to provide diversity. I believe that Justice Scalia suggested something like this, in jest, during the University of Michigan affirmative action case oral arguments.
It's true that there are undoubtedly differences among even uniformly elite candidates. On other hand, there would be less somewhat less pressure on competitive, academically-driven students if at some level one more point on the SAT was irrelevent. Their counselors could say "you've got a 3.9, lots of APs etc. now relax -- it truly is a crap shoot." It would be a bit like the NFL draft -- being good enough get in the draft requires skill and dedication but where you get drafted is outside your control.
As I said I know why this is unlikely -- schools want to control who comes and part of their allure is the difficulty of getting in. I just suspect that at some level many of these decisions are (unacknowledged) coin tosses among largely similar applicants.
It's true that there are undoubtedly differences among even uniformly elite candidates. On other hand, there would be less somewhat less pressure on competitive, academically-driven students if at some level one more point on the SAT was irrelevent. Their counselors could say "you've got a 3.9, lots of APs etc. now relax -- it truly is a crap shoot." It would be a bit like the NFL draft -- being good enough get in the draft requires skill and dedication but where you get drafted is outside your control.
As I said I know why this is unlikely -- schools want to control who comes and part of their allure is the difficulty of getting in. I just suspect that at some level many of these decisions are (unacknowledged) coin tosses among largely similar applicants.
3
It probably wouldnt accomplish the diversity goal. Of course that depends on how wide a net is cast. But generally speaking the qualifications of favored groups are much lower than the white/Asian applicants at these top schools.
Something like this did happen, Pete. But if I remember correctly it was even more experimental than what you have suggested. I believe the school that did it was the University of Texas. It was either for law school or medical school. I believe they selected a meaningful number of students randomly from the applicant pool. The result was that their random selection did as well as or better than the applicants whom they had specifically selected.
PeteM wrote:
"I know this will never happen, but part of me wonders if it wouldn't make sense to have the admissions department come up with a pool of students from each year's applicants who past experience suggest could succeed at Harvard (and at similar schools), and just admit them randomly from that pool. I think you could make this pool small enough to contain only very accomplished students, but large enough to provide diversity. I believe that Justice Scalia suggested something like this, in jest, during the University of Michigan affirmative action case oral arguments. ..."
PeteM wrote:
"I know this will never happen, but part of me wonders if it wouldn't make sense to have the admissions department come up with a pool of students from each year's applicants who past experience suggest could succeed at Harvard (and at similar schools), and just admit them randomly from that pool. I think you could make this pool small enough to contain only very accomplished students, but large enough to provide diversity. I believe that Justice Scalia suggested something like this, in jest, during the University of Michigan affirmative action case oral arguments. ..."
2
"A Princeton study found that students who identify as Asian need to score 140 points higher on the SAT than whites to have the same chance of admission to private colleges..."
By that logic, it's white students who are "stealing" spots from Asian applicants since they outnumber literally every other demographic. Why are we so quick to accuse blacks and latinos of taking things they don't deserve? And if it sounds ridiculous to you that white people are stealing spots from others (which honestly doesn't sound too ridiculous to me), then THAT'S THE POINT. Making this an issue of who's robbing whom is stupid. Between a high-achieving Asian student and a high-achieving black student only one is going to have their accomplishments invalidated by peers, professors, work colleagues, etc. THAT is the point. People who are wrong shade of brown have ALWAYS had to work twice as hard to prove their intelligence, docility, passion and their overall worth. If you're complaining about 14% of blacks and 11% of latinos attending your (dream) university, you're blind to who's really doing the "stealing" in America.
By that logic, it's white students who are "stealing" spots from Asian applicants since they outnumber literally every other demographic. Why are we so quick to accuse blacks and latinos of taking things they don't deserve? And if it sounds ridiculous to you that white people are stealing spots from others (which honestly doesn't sound too ridiculous to me), then THAT'S THE POINT. Making this an issue of who's robbing whom is stupid. Between a high-achieving Asian student and a high-achieving black student only one is going to have their accomplishments invalidated by peers, professors, work colleagues, etc. THAT is the point. People who are wrong shade of brown have ALWAYS had to work twice as hard to prove their intelligence, docility, passion and their overall worth. If you're complaining about 14% of blacks and 11% of latinos attending your (dream) university, you're blind to who's really doing the "stealing" in America.
7
Harvard's anti-Asian admission's policy drips with racism. It is indefensible.
10
Except, Harvard isn't discriminating against Asians for admission. The incoming Harvard class is 22.2% Asian. There is more to life and academia than just test scores and grades.
2
Is it a mistake to bring this suit on behalf of Asian-American students via the same conservative organization that is claiming discrimination against white students? I believe so.
The Trump administration's proposed legislation claiming discrimination against white students is a shameless exercise in the usual muddled thinking and malicious racism that we have come to expect from this White House.
The Trump effort is clearly targeted at blacks and Latinos. The purpose is to make Trump's white nationalists and neo-Nazis happy. Do Asian-Americans want to be associated with that? Finally, at the better universities it will only hurt white applicants.
Why will it hurt white applicants? Because at present they have their own affirmative action at those schools. They can score about 150 points lower than Asian-American applicants, all other things the same, and still have the same odds of admittance.
I write this as a parent in a family that has standing to join this suit.
The Trump administration's proposed legislation claiming discrimination against white students is a shameless exercise in the usual muddled thinking and malicious racism that we have come to expect from this White House.
The Trump effort is clearly targeted at blacks and Latinos. The purpose is to make Trump's white nationalists and neo-Nazis happy. Do Asian-Americans want to be associated with that? Finally, at the better universities it will only hurt white applicants.
Why will it hurt white applicants? Because at present they have their own affirmative action at those schools. They can score about 150 points lower than Asian-American applicants, all other things the same, and still have the same odds of admittance.
I write this as a parent in a family that has standing to join this suit.
4
The authors wrote "The Harvard lawsuit likens attitudes toward Asian-Americans to attitudes toward Jews at Harvard, beginning around 1920, when Jews were a high-achieving minority. In 1918, Jews reached 20 percent of the Harvard freshman class, and the university soon proposed a quota to lower the number of Jewish students." This is a misleading statement which implies that the admission of Jews remained below 20% in the years after 1918. In fact Hillel reports that in recent years the admission of jews to Harvard has been around 25% of the class. This means that almost half of the class are white and half of this white group are Jews. That seems like an amazing over-representation of Jews who are only 2% of our population. So, at least as many Jews as Asians are admitted to Harvard. No wonder the Asians are upset. I note that this article does not point out this Jewish bias in admissions at Harvard and neither did the Asians. Is this another manifestation of political correctness? Or is it an egregious example of racism.
5
Imagine a future in which every child could be genetically engineered to change his or her race from that of his or her biological parents.
Imagine that a race would then be randomly assigned to your child.
Imagine that human nature has not changed, we still have our biases and prejudices, and we still live in a profoundly discriminatory and unequal world.
What preferential system would you choose in order to ensure that your child would have the best chance of success in life? Pure meritocracy or affirmative action?
Imagine that a race would then be randomly assigned to your child.
Imagine that human nature has not changed, we still have our biases and prejudices, and we still live in a profoundly discriminatory and unequal world.
What preferential system would you choose in order to ensure that your child would have the best chance of success in life? Pure meritocracy or affirmative action?
As discussed in Daniel Golden's excellent book, "The Price of Admission", the most unfair aspect of elite colleges' admissions policies is not race-based affirmative action but preferential treatment of alumni children and children large donors, both of which are essentially ways to boost the proportion of whites at these schools.
Dershowitz has written about how decades ago, elite colleges changed their admissions criteria to place less emphasis on grades as a way of lowering the proportion of Jewish students--whose growing representation at these schools was worrying many (similar to the situation Asian students face now).
Eliminating alumni preferences and employing merit-based criteria, similar to what is done at excellent schools like Cal Tech, MIT, Oxford, and Cambridge would be fairer for all. This would also reduce the number of coveted admissions spots given to the likes of Jared Kushner and instead give them to more deserving applicants.
Dershowitz has written about how decades ago, elite colleges changed their admissions criteria to place less emphasis on grades as a way of lowering the proportion of Jewish students--whose growing representation at these schools was worrying many (similar to the situation Asian students face now).
Eliminating alumni preferences and employing merit-based criteria, similar to what is done at excellent schools like Cal Tech, MIT, Oxford, and Cambridge would be fairer for all. This would also reduce the number of coveted admissions spots given to the likes of Jared Kushner and instead give them to more deserving applicants.
12
Mr. Jia violated a cardinal rule of Ivy League admissions: Don't be a walk-on. Only legacies, recruited athletes, and underrepresented minorities should regard their chances of admission as greater than one-half of the institutions' acceptance rates (e.g., less than 3 percent at Harvard). Applicants in these categories, along with children of government and corporate leaders, celebrities, and two-comma donors, leave little room for "anybody who nobody sent." The biggest thing wrong with that is the culture of omerta surrounding it, to which the colleges in question religiously adhere.
4
Admission to a university with a large number of applicants must consider all aspects of the applicant. We live in a very racist country; educational opportunities below university are determined by class, by race, by wealth, even by religion. Talk to anyone who has young children. Talk to those people of different ethnicities and find out how wide is the chasm in educational opportunities. Famous universities recognize that. Admission is not just based on test scores. Should not be. We are a diverse country, many ethnic groups from all over the world. Universities want diversity because people bring their own experiences that will benefit all students. A school admission based just on "merit" based on high scores miss all those students who have unquantifiable high scores because of their unique perspectives they will share with the rest of the student body. Students with higher scores because their parents can afford thousands of dollars of test-taking preparatory courses are not smart and worthy if they do not recognize their rather special privilege. Otherwise, a caste system will be legally institutionalized, the "undesirables " at the bottom, their resentment festering in their banlieus.
4
Stop it. I am a Vietnamese American female who grew up extremely destitute in a single-parent household with a mother who had no education. I attended a state school, supported myself through my bachelor's and masters, and earn a conventional six-figure income. I turned out just fine.
Most of the Asian-Americans who are complaining have the luxury of an affluent upbringing. If you don't get into an Ivy League, you'll still have far better opportunities in life than Blacks, Latinos, or other truly oppressed minorities.
Check your privilege, Asian-Americans.
Most of the Asian-Americans who are complaining have the luxury of an affluent upbringing. If you don't get into an Ivy League, you'll still have far better opportunities in life than Blacks, Latinos, or other truly oppressed minorities.
Check your privilege, Asian-Americans.
13
You are not the only one who experienced hardship. Not everyone who excesl scholastically is privileged. Some people value the experience of attending an Ivy League. Education is more than just a means to earn 6-figure. Simply because most Americans with Asian descent fare better than some other ethnic minorities does not mean it is all right to discriminate them in college admissions.
Maybe you're the privileged one. Not everyone is born with the luxury of feeling "just fine" if they make a conventional income. I grew up in a poorer family too, and with a sibling that has a developmental disorder. I want to make a lot of money so I can give my parents some of the finer things in retirement that they have never tasted in their 65 years of life. I want my brother to be comfortable as earning a comfortable income for himself may be difficult. People have many good reasons for wanting more. And if they are willing to work hard and sacrifice to get there, I absolutely understand their frustration and even rage at the fact that their skin color would hold them back in any way in 2017.
3
What does another race of people have anything to do with this kid's privilege? You are either good enough to get in or you are not. Does it make any logical sense that this kid lost out to another kid because of income issues or a "balancing of the pie" act? What is to say that a white person should have a larger slice or a black person should have a small slice. This is the type of garbage that sets societies back and continue with this political mess we see today.
2
This looks like an uphill battle for the Students for Fair Admissions. Harvard neither imposed a racial quota nor (apparently) made race the sole criterion for the rejection. Still, the state of affirmative action law is so complicated that the plaintiff should have the opportunity to try to prove its case.
1
Don't worry, Mr. Jia. You're not alone.
Jared Kushner's father bought him a place at Harvard and a guaranteed graduation even though his high school reported in the news this week that his SAT and school grades were not up to par for him to be in such a highly rated university.
Bush, Junior could barely read but his father bought him a place in Harvard and a guaranteed graduation.
My gr'daughter was at the top of her rigorous high school and had other accomplishments that put her far far above most students but she was not accepted at Harvard. Her parents are not rich. She is white, but she's also a female and she belongs to a Native American tribe. So, you're not alone.
Does Harvard enjoy a reputation they don't deserve? Well, if their reputation is that they sell degrees to the highest bidder even when the student isn't all that bright (Kushner, Bush....) then they do deserve that reputation.
Oh... she went to Vanderbilt University and after 5 years at work she's pulling down more than most doctors make.
Jared Kushner's father bought him a place at Harvard and a guaranteed graduation even though his high school reported in the news this week that his SAT and school grades were not up to par for him to be in such a highly rated university.
Bush, Junior could barely read but his father bought him a place in Harvard and a guaranteed graduation.
My gr'daughter was at the top of her rigorous high school and had other accomplishments that put her far far above most students but she was not accepted at Harvard. Her parents are not rich. She is white, but she's also a female and she belongs to a Native American tribe. So, you're not alone.
Does Harvard enjoy a reputation they don't deserve? Well, if their reputation is that they sell degrees to the highest bidder even when the student isn't all that bright (Kushner, Bush....) then they do deserve that reputation.
Oh... she went to Vanderbilt University and after 5 years at work she's pulling down more than most doctors make.
2
Before WW2, the famous Nobel Prize-winning and Manhatten Project hero, physicist Richard Feynman was denied entry into Columbia because he was Jewish and the 'quota' for Jews was filled. After the Holocaust, that policy was rescinded. Now we have a similar policy directed at Americans of Asian descent. If the quota system for Jews was wrong, then the quota system for Americans of Asian descent is similarly wrong. I also wonder how they would treat an American with mixed race parents or Grandparents.
3
American colleges and universities that choose to discriminate against any race or ethnicity should receive no federal money.
Most of the worst offenders have huge endowments already, so they will encounter few difficulties supporting themselves.
Most of the worst offenders have huge endowments already, so they will encounter few difficulties supporting themselves.
1
It’s a complex question for society, but for a teenager, it’s a very simple question: what’s the point of working so hard in school if it’s not rewarded?
5
No one is more an advocate and proponent of diversity and affirmative action than I. Many many moons ago before affirmative action even existed, I was not accepted by my first choice college because they had exceeded their quota of "ethnics." Universities have always had criteria other than academic ones for admission. In the final analysis. they are private institutions and can set any admission standards they choose.
After all. if legacy and donations weren't factored in, certain presidents who shall remain nameless would never have gone to prestigious colleges.
After all. if legacy and donations weren't factored in, certain presidents who shall remain nameless would never have gone to prestigious colleges.
4
I'm Asian and received one GPA related scholarship for my education despite applying to many for which I might qualify, included those aimed at minority students. I think the vitriol for affirmative action is uninformed at best. The most often repeated and disproven assumption is that: 1) A student with higher test scores and a higher GPA should have higher standing. Test scores and GPA have been proven to be poor indicators in how well students perform in college. If someone passionately believes that these items SHOULD be deciding factors, then why apply to institutions that obviously believe otherwise? If these institutions are being hailed as unparalleled bastions of higher thinking, why would they chose such obviously poor criteria?
God forbid that institutions take it upon themselves to develop THEIR OWN METRICS which often include demonstrated qualities of good character, independent thinking, and the likelihood that a student will use their education to improve a community. How is that not part of a merit based system?
God forbid that institutions take it upon themselves to develop THEIR OWN METRICS which often include demonstrated qualities of good character, independent thinking, and the likelihood that a student will use their education to improve a community. How is that not part of a merit based system?
3
Harvard may be trying to do the best possible thing given the time and era. But Harvard or any other 'same caliber' school doesn't provide the best education to every student. The most valuable (not necessarily the most successful) people in the world come from all different backgrounds and with different types of education. What makes a person most valuable beyond hard work is being humble, having humility, sacrificing big, and pursuing the most genuine career he or she is meant to do. Several universities in the US, though I am partial to liberal arts education, can instill the traits into students that I am talking about. What really makes a difference for a person and the world is what the person leaves behind in terms of valuable work and the people she or he influences to do the same. Diversity and balance are naturally good things and should be valued. Thus Harvard cannot really be faulted. If a student doesn't get into Harvard for whatever reason, that is not the end.
38
"The most valuable (not necessarily the most successful) people in the world come from all different backgrounds and with different types of education."
Tell that to anyone who aspires to be a Supreme Court justice:
Kagan - Harvard
Gorsuch - Harvard
Kennedy - Harvard
Roberts - Harvard
Breyer - Harvard
Ginsburg - Harvard/Columbia
Alito - Yale
Thomas - Yale
Sotomayor - Yale
Tell that to anyone who aspires to be a Supreme Court justice:
Kagan - Harvard
Gorsuch - Harvard
Kennedy - Harvard
Roberts - Harvard
Breyer - Harvard
Ginsburg - Harvard/Columbia
Alito - Yale
Thomas - Yale
Sotomayor - Yale
8
And yet, Oxford has only 55% of its students from state schools, versus 90% of university entrants as a whole. Apparent meritocracy is not the same thing as real meritocracy.
You claim that "diversity and balance are naturally good things and should be valued." Should they really be valued more than our cherished principles of non-discrimination and due process?
It is utterly foolish to allow entry into college for someone who cannot pass a high school test, and turn down someone who has studied hard and is actually ready for the college curriculum. Anything other than merit based admission is pure foolishness and should be stopped. We've had more than enough dumbing down politics in the educational system.
10
No one is advocating accepting incompetent students and rejecting competent ones. What is actually going on is two students who are almost equally excellent in grades, and one of them is being accepted over the other because she has other qualities as well. Both students will be accepted at top schools, and both will do well when they get there. This is not a rejection of excellence, but using a broader criterion for measuring excellence. There is no reason that grades alone should be the only factor in determining who gets into what school.
3
Blacks and Latinos accepted into Harvard are not students who cannot pass a high school test. They are extraordinary academic superstars, who happen to be Black and Latino.
3
BERS, New Jersey
Having sent three of my children to so called "elite" private universities I can only say that the admissions process currently used is, in essence, a quota system. Your nationality and race, if you are an athlete and if your parents attended the institution ("legacies") all factor heavily into the admissions process. These places are not academic institutions in the true sense. It is well known that students admitted to elite colleges with less than stellar high school academic records are tutored, groomed and hand held throughout their time at these institutions. Mediocre students, particularly those in non-STEM majors, can coast through and easily get degrees. I just wish elite colleges would come clean and say they are by no means meritocracies. It would only be fair if these institutions publicly provided admissions data by race and other factors. I heard many stories of parents being told by college admissions professional to not apply to certain elite schools because too many of their racial/religious group were applying there and there was little or no chance of their children being admitted even though their kids had near perfect SATs. My kids were lucky and got admitted, largely based on their totally non-academic athletic ability. Yes, the system is deeply flawed.
Having sent three of my children to so called "elite" private universities I can only say that the admissions process currently used is, in essence, a quota system. Your nationality and race, if you are an athlete and if your parents attended the institution ("legacies") all factor heavily into the admissions process. These places are not academic institutions in the true sense. It is well known that students admitted to elite colleges with less than stellar high school academic records are tutored, groomed and hand held throughout their time at these institutions. Mediocre students, particularly those in non-STEM majors, can coast through and easily get degrees. I just wish elite colleges would come clean and say they are by no means meritocracies. It would only be fair if these institutions publicly provided admissions data by race and other factors. I heard many stories of parents being told by college admissions professional to not apply to certain elite schools because too many of their racial/religious group were applying there and there was little or no chance of their children being admitted even though their kids had near perfect SATs. My kids were lucky and got admitted, largely based on their totally non-academic athletic ability. Yes, the system is deeply flawed.
16
Harvard is a private school - I suspect it can define criteria how it chooses as a private institution. State colleges as public institutions on the other hand are more susceptible to lawsuits - as they should be. It is time to stop discriminating against anyone because of their race or background (giving preference to a particular race discriminates against other races). Those thinking this is done to the benefit of white males is delusional - white males have not been the majority group on campuses since the late 1970's, when female enrollment exceeded male enrollment and that isn't going to change (well maybe they were still the majority at Harvard - but not at colleges across the country). Let's face it Harvard will never look like America - regardless of any ratio of races, gender, nationality, . . . - it will never look like America - after all - Lake Wobegon where all children are above average and superior is fiction.
1
Any institution of higher education that receives funds from the federal government must follow federal criteria with regard to non-discrimination. Federal funding makes the admissions policies and decisions of private institutions subject to legal scrutiny. Since there is so much federal money invested in higher education (from Pell Grants to National Endowment for the Humanities fellowships and everything in between), it would be imprudent for a private university to opt out of federal funding.
"Asian-American" in this context should only refer to East Asians and Brahmin Indians. Without looking at the data, I doubt South East Asians/lower class Indians make up their fair share at Harvard.
4
As a graduate of "elite" Northeastern Liberal Arts College, I would guess 5 percent of my grades were based upon tests - rather research, reading and more importantly, abilities to make valid arguments and then express those ideas in written words faired much more prominently.
5
Affirmative Action was enacted, first as an executive order, in response to several demands of the Civil Rights Movement. One, "to level the playing field of American democracy" allowing minority groups equal access to opportunity; two, to reward minorities, African Americans and Mexican-Americas mainly, for their role in building the nation over two centuries of history; third, in response to poverty, which over a number of generations had become a permanent feature of minority people's lives. A year later, in 1964, women without racial or status distinction were added to the category of people deserving the benefit of AA. Universities must take into account these factors. For the most part they have continued to rely on academic criteria, relation of applicants to alumni, and because of political pressure, race and economic status. If in the history of the USA racial minorities did not qualify academically because of poverty, AA would assist them making room for them at universities. Is it fair that immigrants, because they are members of a racial minority group, but far from being poor (many Asian immigrants have been admitted as immigrants because they are rich), should demand AA benefits? Asian-Americans are already the highest earning ethnic group in the country, even higher than whites. And, also, the most educated. I know that AA is history, but the goal of "leveling the playing field" is far from achieved.
4
"I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - MLK
Each person is unique and different. We can't perpetuate racial discrimination by selecting students based on the color of their skin for the sake of "diversity."
Each person is unique and different. We can't perpetuate racial discrimination by selecting students based on the color of their skin for the sake of "diversity."
3
Asian-Americans are only 5.7% of the US population but 22.2% of the Harvard Class of 2021. The idea that Asian-American applicants are the victims of discrimination requires some mental gymnastics.
First, it rests on the assumption that the relative merit of candidates can be primarily measured by test scores and grades. Many non-Asian applicants with similar scores are also denied admission. Test results are snapshots that should be weighed with other factors, such as the deeper insights gained from teacher recommendations, student essays and portfolios.
Second, it is unrealistic to think that the outside world can impose admissions goals on private colleges. These institutions endure long beyond the four years an undergraduate attends, and have their own objectives. For example, to sustain research in esoteric fields, a school needs students who want to study in those departments. A college shapes the class it wants for its own purposes.
Third, statistics suggest that applications by Asian-Americans are skewed towards the most prestigious large schools. The lvies, Stanford, UChicago and Duke have percentages of Asian-American students often twice that of equally excellent colleges like Amherst, Williams and Carleton. Disappointed applicants should consider whether their choices were too narrow and possibly motivated by status rather than good fit.
What makes Harvard attractive and prestigious is the very admissions process the lawsuit attacks.
First, it rests on the assumption that the relative merit of candidates can be primarily measured by test scores and grades. Many non-Asian applicants with similar scores are also denied admission. Test results are snapshots that should be weighed with other factors, such as the deeper insights gained from teacher recommendations, student essays and portfolios.
Second, it is unrealistic to think that the outside world can impose admissions goals on private colleges. These institutions endure long beyond the four years an undergraduate attends, and have their own objectives. For example, to sustain research in esoteric fields, a school needs students who want to study in those departments. A college shapes the class it wants for its own purposes.
Third, statistics suggest that applications by Asian-Americans are skewed towards the most prestigious large schools. The lvies, Stanford, UChicago and Duke have percentages of Asian-American students often twice that of equally excellent colleges like Amherst, Williams and Carleton. Disappointed applicants should consider whether their choices were too narrow and possibly motivated by status rather than good fit.
What makes Harvard attractive and prestigious is the very admissions process the lawsuit attacks.
12
"Asian-Americans are only 5.7% of the US population but 22.2% of the Harvard Class of 2021. The idea that Asian-American applicants are the victims of discrimination requires some mental gymnastics."
Spot on with the point made.
Spot on with the point made.
4
I am sure you know that many private universities enjoy significant amounts of federal grants and other public money and, therefore, subject to public scrutiny and possible legal challenges.
2
It doesnt require mental gymnastics at all. It just requires race-blind admissions. One can easily see that if race was a non-factor, many more Asians would be admitted.
1
It's nice to pretend that race is just one factor, and that Harvard and the rest of the usual suspects are evaluating the 'whole person.' Here's a way to test that theory. Take a sample of non-Asian minority admittees and a sample of rejected Asian applicants, and change does one data-point on their applications - their racial identity. See how many non-Asian minority applicants would have been admitted if they had been identified as Asian, and how may rejected Asian applicants would have been admitted if they had been identified as Black or Hispanic. If you perform that experiment, you may discover that race was the only factor that mattered.
5
or not.
Once again, we find that playing politics is more important for so-called liberal institutions than is merit.
1
We should and will continue to debate about Affirmative Action, but what is beyond dispute is that our top universities turn down many of our top students, as determined by academic measures. My guess is that not even half of our strongest student enroll at the most prestigious institutions. (You could do the math pretty easily by looking up the number of students with high test scores and the numbers of accepted students in the top twelve or so schools.) No other country's university system operates this way. The result is an exciting and dynamic atmosphere of diversity in the Ivy League, and certainly that's a good thing, but informed people should know that many of our brightest and most capable students earn their degrees elsewhere, which explains why employers looking for elite talent set up shop and interview on the campuses of our best state schools, institutions that welcome Asian Americans.
2
So, NYT, now that the overriding theme/overtones of your article yesterday have been debunked (that DoJ was looking into this primarily for white students, insinuating that the administration is racist), are you going to issue a clarification or correction?
I'm guessing not.
I'm guessing not.
9
This is a private lawsuit. It has nothing to do with the DOJ.
The article says that students with lower test scores got admitted but doesn't indicate the grades, GPA, AP test scores, and SAT subject test scores (required for these schools) for those admitted students. Mr. Jia did NOT have straight As. The GPA was weighted, where an A in an AP class scores 5 points on a scale of 4 points. A student I know with 6 APs and straight As in high school had a 4.7 GPA. Clearly, Mr. Jia had Bs on his transcript.
Schools like Harvard have admittance rates of around 5-8%, with most of the applicants being highly qualified. Harvard (I've attended their admissions sessions in the past 3 months) makes very clear that they look at the entire student, not just test scores: grades, rigor of high school curriculum, teacher recommendations, activities, teacher recommendations, test scores and the very important personal essay that students must submit.
So, was Mr. Jia not accepted because of his race? or was it that other students had stronger overall applications?
My rising high school senior has test scores and a GPA the surpass Mr Jia, as well as more activities. Yet, she is well aware that the chance of admittance to these schools is low, no matter your test scores and GPA.
Schools like Harvard have admittance rates of around 5-8%, with most of the applicants being highly qualified. Harvard (I've attended their admissions sessions in the past 3 months) makes very clear that they look at the entire student, not just test scores: grades, rigor of high school curriculum, teacher recommendations, activities, teacher recommendations, test scores and the very important personal essay that students must submit.
So, was Mr. Jia not accepted because of his race? or was it that other students had stronger overall applications?
My rising high school senior has test scores and a GPA the surpass Mr Jia, as well as more activities. Yet, she is well aware that the chance of admittance to these schools is low, no matter your test scores and GPA.
11
Kushner, Bannon, Gorsuch, Dubya, well, somebody benefitted.
5
Wow all the NYT Picks are comments that blatantly stereotype Asian Americans as being robotic and needing a culture change. NYT you just lost a subscriber.
19
AA is racist against Asians and its end of that. No matter how much white rich liberals try to use emotional arguments. Can't argue against the facts.
12
As noted elsewhere "Asian-Americans are only 5.7% of the US population but 22.2% of the Harvard Class of 2021. The idea that Asian-American applicants are the victims of discrimination requires some mental gymnastics."
4
One more tip: humor in an essay goes a long way.
What are the "legacy" and "developmental" admission rates? How do these groups' admission test scores compare to the plaintiffs?
5
Why stop here? If so, admission blindness should also apply to:
- Family wealth, i.e. ability to make significant donations and/or not to apply for what colleges call 'financial aid'
- Family celebrity - look at the politicians' and other celebrities' children (Clinton, Bush, Obama, former German Chancellor Kohl's sons - Harvard and MIT, Trump?)
- 'Legacy'
I would be curious to know about the correlation between these characteristics, GPA/SAT scores and admission frequencies to 'top' schools. Will DOJ ask for these data as well?
- Family wealth, i.e. ability to make significant donations and/or not to apply for what colleges call 'financial aid'
- Family celebrity - look at the politicians' and other celebrities' children (Clinton, Bush, Obama, former German Chancellor Kohl's sons - Harvard and MIT, Trump?)
- 'Legacy'
I would be curious to know about the correlation between these characteristics, GPA/SAT scores and admission frequencies to 'top' schools. Will DOJ ask for these data as well?
15
Asian Americans, the last American group in this country to simply 'grin and bear it", have finally decided to stop being the silent invisible minority and to fight for their own rights. Whether it is the lack of TV series featuring AA's or colleges that discriminate against them, they are stepping out into the political spotlight. There should not be a 'tax' for being intellectually prepared to go to college and those who spend 3-5 hours a day studying and diligently preparing for their future should not be penalized.
25
It is interesting that yesterdays inaccurate article with the lead ""The U.S. Justice Department is planning to investigate and possibly sue universities over admissions policies that discriminate against white applicants" had over 3,000 comments with 99% of the commenters condemning the Trump administration. Today's article changes the lead to be "a lawsuit claims that Harvard penalizes Asian-Americans for their high achievement and gives preference to other minorities" has just 238 comments and over 95% of the commenters are supportive of the lawsuit. I would encourage the 3,000 commenters who were so inflamed yesterday to weigh-in with their comments about the corrected story. Are the commenters consistent in their values that no one should be discriminated against due to race and the Justice Department under any President should take legal action whenever they find racial discrimination?
5
Just reading this article makes it so clear to me why Mr. Jia was rejected from so many of the Ivy League Schools. He was clearly applying to schools based on a perceived ranking rather than a good fit. For example, although Brown and Columbia are both in the Ivy League, they could not be more different in their approach to academics. Columbia has a very high number of required courses regardless of major while Brown has virtually none.
In addition, it seems that many Asians play the same sports (tennis and golf) and play the same musical instruments (piano and violin) so if the school needs lets say a soccer player or a drummer, they may be at a disadvantaged for being so concentrated. Granted this is a generalization, but there is truth in it.
In addition, it seems that many Asians play the same sports (tennis and golf) and play the same musical instruments (piano and violin) so if the school needs lets say a soccer player or a drummer, they may be at a disadvantaged for being so concentrated. Granted this is a generalization, but there is truth in it.
16
There is a whole lot of truth in that generalization.
To those claiming that East Asians did not experience the historic discrimination that Blacks and Native Americans did in the US. Give your head a shake. It may not have the same type of discrimination but it was severe and it pretty much in its worst forms lasted from the Gold Rush right up to the 1960s. The reason many East Asian college students are 1st 2nd and 3rd generation is there ancestors were forbidden by law from entering the US and or becoming US citizens and Chinese women were barred from entry to make sure no children would be born here. So no -- you do have history of discrimination in the US. It's simply ignored, glossed over or not taught in most US schools. Your ancestors were subjected to a very very harsh forms of discrimination in the US under various state and federal laws and from gangs of racist criminals. Those Chinese that tried to remain in the US after the gold rush were subjected to discriminatory laws, pogroms driving them out of communities and lynchings. (In fact the worst lynching in the US as far as number killed was a lyncihing wherein 17 Chinese were killed.) Then there was the uniquely racist China Exclusion Act barring Chinese from entering the US enacted at a time when there was serious debate about deporting recently freed Blacks to Africa. In the end the gov decided they'd rather not have to compete with the Chinese. Those who are unaware of this need to educate themselves on the history of Chinese and East Asians in the US.
12
Well, visit Silicon Valley and you will find a whole lot of Taiwanese Han Chinese immigrants who came over wealthy and highly educated. They can afford multi-million dollar homes and their children are not the disadvantaged descendants of gold rush or railroad workers.
I'm pretty sure it isn't the Hmong that are filling up Berkeley and Stanford.
I'm pretty sure it isn't the Hmong that are filling up Berkeley and Stanford.
1
I am bothered that Asian Americans are lumped together. There is a distinct difference between India, China, Hmong and Laos. Is a Hmong student getting a fair shake in any of this?
9
Well, what about African Americans they are all lumped together and may speak different languages, come from different countries and have different cultures. Same for Hispanic, living here in South Florida I can tell you from personal experience that Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Guatemalans, Peruvians, Brazilians are quite different with different culture, dialects and languages.
And as white person, why am I lumped together with all white people, my family is from Denmark my family culture has nothing in common with Italians or Irish, etc.
And as white person, why am I lumped together with all white people, my family is from Denmark my family culture has nothing in common with Italians or Irish, etc.
3
Exactly as Whites, Blacks and Hispanics are.
1
All Colleges are not equal and Harvard, or any of the Ivy's are not typical. In most of the country, the local community college is more important economically and offers most people the greatest chance of upward social mobility, but here we focus on a tiny subset of privilege as a model for policies that will affect all institutions.
2
What is lost in debates like this is the admissions process is all about meeting the myriad of internal demands - academic, social, athletic, artistic - that a modern university has to address to remain engaged with the outside world.
A School of Engineering may need 400 incoming freshmen because of a high graduation rate of engineering majors from the prior year. The English department may need a dozen freshmen interested in modern lit because a well-known author has agreed to teach seminar courses. The University orchestra may be short on violists and needs at least four or five freshmen fill out the viola section. The Physics department may have won a government grant and needs fifty students who are interesting in studying black holes.
So it is entirely plausible that a student with a 92 GPA and an ACT score of 31 can get admitted over someone like Mr. Jia and his nearly perfect grades because that student wants to major in engineering, minor in English and play the viola on Saturdays.
A School of Engineering may need 400 incoming freshmen because of a high graduation rate of engineering majors from the prior year. The English department may need a dozen freshmen interested in modern lit because a well-known author has agreed to teach seminar courses. The University orchestra may be short on violists and needs at least four or five freshmen fill out the viola section. The Physics department may have won a government grant and needs fifty students who are interesting in studying black holes.
So it is entirely plausible that a student with a 92 GPA and an ACT score of 31 can get admitted over someone like Mr. Jia and his nearly perfect grades because that student wants to major in engineering, minor in English and play the viola on Saturdays.
9
My final comment: Here is an admissions story. Brilliant high school math student is denied admission to MIT. Upset, he actually contacts MIT to ask why, and MIT, to my amazement, tells him. The reason was, he didn't take math in his senior year. But, he protests, there were no more math classes to take. Says MIT: we expected that you would independently figure out how to continue your math education through other means. There are things SAT scores don't measure.
12
There is obviously racial discrimination occurring in the college admissions process. Race is the single most important factor after test scores and GPA.
We call it affirmative action to make it sound less like racial discrimination, but giving a boost to one racial group necessarily involves imposing a detriment on another. Some think that's wrong for the same reasons any racial discrimination is wrong--it reduces the individual to their racial group identity.
This boost isn't helping disadvantaged but equally qualified minority applicants. It may be helping the disadvantaged (although there is wide disagreement about whether most of the benefits go to middle class and upper middle class minorities), but it is clearly not just a "tie breaker" among the equally qualified. The stats show affirmative action is a huge boost to minority students with *materially lower* test scores and grades.
Now do we want well rounded college students that don't spend all of their free time preparing for the SATs -- of course. Is racial discrimination the only way to achieve that?
We call it affirmative action to make it sound less like racial discrimination, but giving a boost to one racial group necessarily involves imposing a detriment on another. Some think that's wrong for the same reasons any racial discrimination is wrong--it reduces the individual to their racial group identity.
This boost isn't helping disadvantaged but equally qualified minority applicants. It may be helping the disadvantaged (although there is wide disagreement about whether most of the benefits go to middle class and upper middle class minorities), but it is clearly not just a "tie breaker" among the equally qualified. The stats show affirmative action is a huge boost to minority students with *materially lower* test scores and grades.
Now do we want well rounded college students that don't spend all of their free time preparing for the SATs -- of course. Is racial discrimination the only way to achieve that?
3
This is just a postscript to my prior comment, but in reality, Harvard and other schools would probably do just as well to identify anyone who they think legitimately could do the work that Harvard requires and select the actual admittees based on a random number generator, with some adjustments at the margin. The point being that the admissions process for a large school like Harvard is basically fraudulent, with those making the decisions claiming more robust judgment than they could possibly possess about strangers. It's just a great big guessing game and it would be better if they could avoid making it as wounding as it has become. Just admit it's hard to choose a class and leave some of the hardest decisions to chance. That would be a whole lot more like the rest of life. Smaller schools probably have greater insight into what kind of student will be a good fit than large schools.
3
Personally, I believe that American society owes special consideration to African Americans because of slavery, JimCrow, & current discrimination. Native Americans deserve special consideration because of the attempted genocide against them, their lands being taken from them & their children being taken from them. The rest of us - Asians, Hispanics, & ethnic whites, are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants, who have at some point in their history experienced discrimination, more or less severe & it's enough already with the identity politics.
2
Harvard's, as is the case with other Ivy League and similar universities, main focus is academics and has been since its inception, with only a minor focus on athletic programs. Thus it's logical to think that those applying and being accepted would have focussed on academic achievement. Hypothetically we could consider the establishment of colleges with a primary focus on athletics including training, competition, historical context, etc. accompanied with minor academic programs. Those accepted would be a markedly different ethnic and racial makeup than the academically focussed institutions. We should reward those who pursue a path that best meets their interest, skills and passion.
I'm guessing the 'less than perfect SAT' was on the math side as Mr Jia seems to not understand the simple math that there are not enough spots in Ivy League schools for them to accept every applicant with great scores, high GPAs, and time in the chess club. I do feel for Mr Jia, as anyone so selfish and so completely lacking in empathy probably has a crash & burn in his future. I hope others treat him with more compassion than he feels for anyone not blessed with his privileged upbringing. And please, Mr Jia, do not come to the finance industry - we need creativity, diversity, and strategic thinking. Not cookie-cutter robots with an appalling sense of entitlement.
3
GPA and SAT scores are not the only measure of potential.
I'm a San Francisco resident, and I watch the products of STEM and SAT/GPA "merit" rush to and from their tech shuttles every day—heads buried in phones, tuned out, socially clueless, and insensitive to the world around them.
Certainly some will do great things as their lives unfold and perspectives widen. Many, however, are unable to see beyond their own obsessions with achievement, competition, and ruthless self enrichment.
STEM and GPA/SAT fixation may make great obsessive coders. It doesn't necessarily make great citizens or facilitate the imagination that is the essence of genius.
I'm a San Francisco resident, and I watch the products of STEM and SAT/GPA "merit" rush to and from their tech shuttles every day—heads buried in phones, tuned out, socially clueless, and insensitive to the world around them.
Certainly some will do great things as their lives unfold and perspectives widen. Many, however, are unable to see beyond their own obsessions with achievement, competition, and ruthless self enrichment.
STEM and GPA/SAT fixation may make great obsessive coders. It doesn't necessarily make great citizens or facilitate the imagination that is the essence of genius.
3
The discrimination against Asian American college applicants is appalling; Asian Americans have been systematically discriminated against since they first began to arrive in the United States in the late nineteenth century. I find it disgraceful that a single ethnic group is being maligned for their commitment to and pursuit of achievement while others are feted and rewarded for mediocrity.
12
John Harvard, Elihu Yale founded schools to educate their own, men like them.
Centuries later, a new breed of industrialists, Leland Stanford, Ezra Cornell founded their own. John D. Rockefeller, not to be outdone, founded two, the University of Chicago and his namesake Rockefeller University.
Asian-Americans are now wealthy enough, famous enough, smart enough, powerful enough, to found their own universities for the 21st century to rival the best in the world.
Who needs affirmative action.
Centuries later, a new breed of industrialists, Leland Stanford, Ezra Cornell founded their own. John D. Rockefeller, not to be outdone, founded two, the University of Chicago and his namesake Rockefeller University.
Asian-Americans are now wealthy enough, famous enough, smart enough, powerful enough, to found their own universities for the 21st century to rival the best in the world.
Who needs affirmative action.
4
I am an Asian. I am all for affirmative action but based on income and not on race.
Kids from impoverished backgrounds absolutely deserve a shot at the best regardless of their race or any other demographic metric!
Affirmative action should be based not on colors white, yellow, brown, or black, but purely on the color green (or the lack thereof).
Kids from impoverished backgrounds absolutely deserve a shot at the best regardless of their race or any other demographic metric!
Affirmative action should be based not on colors white, yellow, brown, or black, but purely on the color green (or the lack thereof).
19
Isn't Harvard a PRIVATE university??? It seems to me the so called conservatives have fought to allow PRIVATE businesses to exclude gays and anyone else they want to because of HATE, but now they go after a privately operated university? What gives the government the right in this case? ALL of the other examples in your article are PUBLIC universities. Idiotic.
1
There is an issue to discuss here, though Mr. Jia's assumption that x test scores + y extracurriculars = admission is absurd. He clearly is an "achiever" and checked all the boxes he thought he needed to check...and it didn't work. After my experiences both as a student at Harvard and now as an educator in a large public research university, I can very easily picture an applicant who—regardless of race, GPA, and standardized test scores—lacks any number of skills/talents that a liberal arts college might desire in an otherwise high-achieving individual: communication skills (different from debating skills), writing skills, creativity (school orchestra is no indicator of creativity), perseverance, and...dare I say...warmth, charisma, empathy, kindness? I find Mr. Jia's linear thinking limiting and am not surprised that top liberal arts colleges did not admit him, especially if he used expressions like "super disillusioned" in his interview and essay. Regarding the differences in numbers of Asian-Americans enrolled at Ivies and the UC's/Caltech: liberal arts colleges are not research universities and have different criteria for admission. This issue is worth examining, but with more care and insight.
166
You do realize everything you listed such as having warmth, charisma, empathy, kindness are subjective and could easily manipulated by your mood?
I also found it problematic you dismissed Mr. Jia as having linear thinking based upon a single interview. You don't know Mr. Jia, yet in your mind you already concluded Mr. Jia is not good enough.
Liberal arts are indeed not research universities. There are poor legacy kids to think about! Millions dollars are at stake if those poor legacy kids can't follow mommy and daddy's footstep to graduate from same liberal art schools.
I also found it problematic you dismissed Mr. Jia as having linear thinking based upon a single interview. You don't know Mr. Jia, yet in your mind you already concluded Mr. Jia is not good enough.
Liberal arts are indeed not research universities. There are poor legacy kids to think about! Millions dollars are at stake if those poor legacy kids can't follow mommy and daddy's footstep to graduate from same liberal art schools.
4
Lesson from the real world ... it is not how smart you are or what was your GPA but rather what have you accomplished recently that was meaningful. Accomplishments that are all about "me" do not count much in real life.
2
Here's the difference between "liberal arts colleges" like the Ivies and "research universities" like the UC's/Caltech: the Ivies need to please their wealthy white donors/alums, UC's & Caltech get state funding/federal grants so they don't. After all, why did Harvard put a cap on Jewish admissions in the '20s if not for the angry letters along with threats to rescind donation pledges from its anti-semitic alums?
2
Mr. Jia didn't get into Harvard because he was 60 points short of a perfect SAT score and didn't take more AP courses. I mean, only 11, what a slacker. Harvard felt that taking a student of the "right" color even though they may have scored 200 points lower than Mr. Jia and 1 AP course in knitting would be a better choice. Much like when the US determines its Olympic Team they only choose the athletes who come in last.
14
Instead of focusing in on what legitimate group is discriminated against, why not focus on the real White Elephant in the room: Legacy Kids. Because these college are "private," though they get billions in government funding, we never get to know the percentage of admissions nepotism. I suspect it is very high and we do not have anything approaching true meritocracy in America. The Old Boy WASPS must be smirking, swirling their martinis above in secrecy while the riff-raff publicly fight over the crumbs down below. Pathetic. The Ivy League is a moral cesspool, no bastion of merit.
12
Come on. Legacies (a derogatory term for multi-generational graduates) built the college. You can bet Harvard knows to the penny how much to ask for in donations every year. My dad was at his 60th+ reunion there this year.
6
George W. Bush was a product of the old boy wasp system. Enough said.
1
The amount of gaslighting that Asian rejectees must go through is sickening. Even with his bevy of athletic, musical, and public speaking achievements, along with his near-perfect test scores and advocacy work, Mr. Jia is told by affirmative action proponents that he is "not well-rounded enough" and that something must be "off" about him.
What exactly is this phantom weakness that Mr. Jia supposedly has on his résumé? It will never be explained. Don't worry about it. Just move on. But rest assured, it has /nothing/ to do with race. Wink wink.
Mr. Jia "didn’t want to blame everything on one reason", but he has every right to blame it on one reason. Because if he were black, Hispanic, or even white for that matter, he would have gotten in. And the Ivy Leagues know it.
Asians are a minority group, too. Those of you giving sarcastic or unsympathetic quips about Mr. Jia's plight should not call yourselves liberals any longer. This is racial discrimination at an institutional level that we are seeing.
What exactly is this phantom weakness that Mr. Jia supposedly has on his résumé? It will never be explained. Don't worry about it. Just move on. But rest assured, it has /nothing/ to do with race. Wink wink.
Mr. Jia "didn’t want to blame everything on one reason", but he has every right to blame it on one reason. Because if he were black, Hispanic, or even white for that matter, he would have gotten in. And the Ivy Leagues know it.
Asians are a minority group, too. Those of you giving sarcastic or unsympathetic quips about Mr. Jia's plight should not call yourselves liberals any longer. This is racial discrimination at an institutional level that we are seeing.
56
Jia has a legit beef. This is Asian discrimination.
The Affirmative Action model is antiquated and a new model/system needs to be developed quickly.
Harvard has B-I-L-L-I-O-N-$ in endowment - it should not be receiving "federal funds."
The Affirmative Action model is antiquated and a new model/system needs to be developed quickly.
Harvard has B-I-L-L-I-O-N-$ in endowment - it should not be receiving "federal funds."
15
Disagree, when they do research for the government.
And the problem with Duke is.....? One of the advantages of a superior education is the lifelong opportunity to bond and network with other superior students. Mr. Jia just flushed that one down the toilet. Every applicant to Harvard has an incredible GPA, near-perfect test scores and a dossier of extracurriculars. And every year, over 30,000 of those applicants - Black, White, Asian - get turned down because there are only 1,600 spots. His inability to appreciate the gift he has been given, coupled with his apparent lack of understanding of the process of building diversity, shows remarkable immaturity.
B. Campbell
Duke University
T 1975
B. Campbell
Duke University
T 1975
4
I don't think the point is that there is anything wrong with Duke," the school the lead plaintiff ended up at. I think the point is that Asian high school students want to be judged by the same standard as white students rather than an objectively higher standard.
By the way, it's no secret that it's harder to get into Harvard than it is to get into Duke, although Duke is of course an excellent school. Also, among those admitted to both Harvard and Duke, the vast majority choose Harvard (colleges and universities trade this kind of statistical information among themselves routinely every year).
Thank God I got into Harvard back in the time when you could basically wander in off the street, slack-jawed and glassy-eyed. In fact, young me got into every Ivy League school I applied to, plus Georgetown, my "safety"(!). If I were applying to those schools now based on the high school record I had back in dino days, I'd be surprised if even one so much as waitlisted me.
By the way, it's no secret that it's harder to get into Harvard than it is to get into Duke, although Duke is of course an excellent school. Also, among those admitted to both Harvard and Duke, the vast majority choose Harvard (colleges and universities trade this kind of statistical information among themselves routinely every year).
Thank God I got into Harvard back in the time when you could basically wander in off the street, slack-jawed and glassy-eyed. In fact, young me got into every Ivy League school I applied to, plus Georgetown, my "safety"(!). If I were applying to those schools now based on the high school record I had back in dino days, I'd be surprised if even one so much as waitlisted me.
2
While I chose Duke, my daughter chose Harvard. Interestingly, she was waitlisted at Georgetown and Columbia, accepted at Harvard, Stanford, Penn, etc. My perception is 1) Ivy admissions are a crapshoot. "It's Tuesday. We haven't admitted any dog mushers from Peoria." And 2) Asians aren't judged b a higher standard than others. If they were, they would not be so disproportionately represented at Harvard, compared to their presence in the general population. Virtually everyone who applies to the Ivies has the same or better credentials as Mr. Jia. Maybe they didn't need any more tennis players that afternoon. If he thinks he has lost anything by attending Duke vs. Harvard, he is sorely mistaken and unlikely to see the opportunities right under his nose. Pity.
How about affirmative action for the NBA? Or the NHL? Why should affirmative action also not be applied to endeavors requiring physical attributes instead of intellectual? All those that lament at the lack of "diversity" in tech or theater how about the lack of "diversity" in sports (to just mention one example)?
True diversity is accepting the unique differences among individuals and groups of individuals sharing the same traits (racial/ethnic/cultural).
Why are butchers most likely men? Preschool teachers most likely women? Country singers mostly whites? Hip hop artists mostly black?
Let people be who they are regardless of where the chips may fall so to speak. As not everyone of us is physically capable of playing professional sports not everyone of us is capable of higher levels of education.
Despite the constant cries of "oppression" affirmative action only confirms that some groups of incapable of competing on the same levels as others.
What would you think of a sporting using affirmative action such as practiced in today universities; it would be joke
True diversity is accepting the unique differences among individuals and groups of individuals sharing the same traits (racial/ethnic/cultural).
Why are butchers most likely men? Preschool teachers most likely women? Country singers mostly whites? Hip hop artists mostly black?
Let people be who they are regardless of where the chips may fall so to speak. As not everyone of us is physically capable of playing professional sports not everyone of us is capable of higher levels of education.
Despite the constant cries of "oppression" affirmative action only confirms that some groups of incapable of competing on the same levels as others.
What would you think of a sporting using affirmative action such as practiced in today universities; it would be joke
13
The richest person that went to.my high school was black. Her Dad was a famous heart surgeon, and they had a 40 foot tall Christmas tree.
His daughter was my age. She had the nicest things. Expensive personal trainers, nice car, vacations around the world....I mean she drove a Lexus to school while I drove a 1982 Toyota Tercel I bought for $300.
I didnt resent her at all. I thought it was cool that in a sea of white kids the richest and most popular girl was black. Everyone fawned over her. She was the Queen of my little rich white high school.
I didnt resent her until Stanford recruited her to go there on a full ride scholarship. Stanford was my #1 choice and my only early action school, but once I learned she had been recruited I was devasted. Stanford almost never accepts more than 1 student per school district outside of CA, and they ended up rejecting every person who actually took the time and money to apply to Stanford.
I got into MIT, so I know I was qualified to go to Stanford. This girl also deserved it, but the fact that she didn't even apply combined with the fact that she was given a full ride even though her Mom and Dad were multi-millionaires definitely induced resentment in my mind.
What it also did was make me resent my whiteness even more. Im feel like Im told Im just supposed to hate my race all the time. Blacks can celebrate their blackness, but I cant celebrate being myself at all or Im a horrible bigot racist who doesnt deserve friends.
His daughter was my age. She had the nicest things. Expensive personal trainers, nice car, vacations around the world....I mean she drove a Lexus to school while I drove a 1982 Toyota Tercel I bought for $300.
I didnt resent her at all. I thought it was cool that in a sea of white kids the richest and most popular girl was black. Everyone fawned over her. She was the Queen of my little rich white high school.
I didnt resent her until Stanford recruited her to go there on a full ride scholarship. Stanford was my #1 choice and my only early action school, but once I learned she had been recruited I was devasted. Stanford almost never accepts more than 1 student per school district outside of CA, and they ended up rejecting every person who actually took the time and money to apply to Stanford.
I got into MIT, so I know I was qualified to go to Stanford. This girl also deserved it, but the fact that she didn't even apply combined with the fact that she was given a full ride even though her Mom and Dad were multi-millionaires definitely induced resentment in my mind.
What it also did was make me resent my whiteness even more. Im feel like Im told Im just supposed to hate my race all the time. Blacks can celebrate their blackness, but I cant celebrate being myself at all or Im a horrible bigot racist who doesnt deserve friends.
38
Imagine 'White' anything, clubs or affiliations or frats on campuses?
1
Interesting story. What happened to her and to you, may I ask?
I was going to say something else --
(about how Asian-Americans are a unique group in that they both benefit from and is disadvantaged by affirmative action, in that they count as a minority in most recruiting situations, until of course, when there are too many other Asian-Americans competing for the same position, in which case, quotas kick in, so that on the whole affirmative action probably has no net negative result for Asian-Americans as a group)
-- until I read all the NYT Picks comments with all those stereotypes of "tiger moms" and "no personality" and "uncreative" and "passionless" and "not well-rounded" Asians.
Wait a minute, now!
From the NYT's bias, it is abundantly clear that what holds Asian-Americans back more than affirmative action are these persistent, pernicious, and insidious stereotypes.
Since when did being hard-working, and successful from being hardworking, per se, become a stigma, except when applied to Asian-Americans?
California, with its 30+ percent Asian population at Berkeley, Caltech, UCLA, is still the most creative, productive, wealthy, innovative, progressive state in the nation.
(about how Asian-Americans are a unique group in that they both benefit from and is disadvantaged by affirmative action, in that they count as a minority in most recruiting situations, until of course, when there are too many other Asian-Americans competing for the same position, in which case, quotas kick in, so that on the whole affirmative action probably has no net negative result for Asian-Americans as a group)
-- until I read all the NYT Picks comments with all those stereotypes of "tiger moms" and "no personality" and "uncreative" and "passionless" and "not well-rounded" Asians.
Wait a minute, now!
From the NYT's bias, it is abundantly clear that what holds Asian-Americans back more than affirmative action are these persistent, pernicious, and insidious stereotypes.
Since when did being hard-working, and successful from being hardworking, per se, become a stigma, except when applied to Asian-Americans?
California, with its 30+ percent Asian population at Berkeley, Caltech, UCLA, is still the most creative, productive, wealthy, innovative, progressive state in the nation.
44
Words are descriptive and biased by nature. As soon as you say "asian american" you are identifying something, same with "tiger mom", "pernicious", or even "stereotype". We all indulge in the manipulation offered by these terms. Sometimes we bear them proudly. I have asian friends who are proud that they excel at math and science and don't lament about it as a stereotype (unless they do).
Stereotypes exist for better or worse. But cultures can change and often economic realities and limitations cause them to.
Stereotypes exist for better or worse. But cultures can change and often economic realities and limitations cause them to.
This is just a brazen attempt by GOP's white supremacist faction to impede advancement of minorities and pander to their base. A classic divide and conquer strategy to weaken all minority groups. Asians should not fool themselves by believing that GOP's intent is to help the qualified brown skin Asian to get admission.
- An Asian Ivy Leaguer
- An Asian Ivy Leaguer
11
This perspective is baffling (though also held by some of my Chinese-American friends). I'm white and anti-affirmative action and:
1. I wouldn't mind if the white student population declined if affirmative action were abolished. If Asian-American and Asian students beat out their white peers, great.
2. Here in the U.S. we are granted equal protection under the law. That essentially means no race-based discrimination. Why is it so difficult to imagine that white Americans are upset by race-based discrimination and aren't driven by some underhanded motive? I want to see our constitutional protections upheld and afforded equally.
By the way, some of the most frustrating, seemingly prejudiced comments appear to come from pro-affirmative action parties that try to minimize the perceived effects of affirmative action by falsely stereotyping Asian-Americans and Asians as non-well-rounded and lacking in leadership and personality--how offensive.
1. I wouldn't mind if the white student population declined if affirmative action were abolished. If Asian-American and Asian students beat out their white peers, great.
2. Here in the U.S. we are granted equal protection under the law. That essentially means no race-based discrimination. Why is it so difficult to imagine that white Americans are upset by race-based discrimination and aren't driven by some underhanded motive? I want to see our constitutional protections upheld and afforded equally.
By the way, some of the most frustrating, seemingly prejudiced comments appear to come from pro-affirmative action parties that try to minimize the perceived effects of affirmative action by falsely stereotyping Asian-Americans and Asians as non-well-rounded and lacking in leadership and personality--how offensive.
4
Start with the premise that not all blacks are poor and go from there.
3
I'm disgusted at all the stereotyping of Asian Americans here by white NYT progressives. Stereotyping Asians as robotic, tiger parented or not having fun and being well-rounded. This is exactly the problem and why quotas against Asian Americans are so inherently racist and discriminatory. It is absolutely racist to give more points to the white upper middle class parents who send their kids to lacrosse practice while deducting points from the Asian upper middle class parents who send their kids to piano practice.
36
"Tiger" mom or parent was coined by an Asian-American woman who wrote a book that reinforced this stereo type. It was a huge best seller too. Were there any truths in her book? Or was it fictional?
3
Is this article meant to be a correction of your completely false piece yesterday titled "Justice Dept. to Take On Affirmative Action in College Admissions"?
4
The first readers of your child's application to Harvard (et al.) will put a B on the top if you are prepared/able to donate a Building. An A if the applicant is an Athlete. A C if she's likely to Concentrate (major) in an unpopular field. Etc.
Do some research before applying. A good old book was Scaling the Ivy Wall. I'm sure there are new books with updated tips.
Don't wait for high school. Start early to prepare your child. Get her/him a "career" (acting in local theater and commercials, e.g.) in addition to getting her/him lessons in tennis, languages, math, e.g., taking part in gifted programs and camps (TIP, e.g.), etc.
Do some research before applying. A good old book was Scaling the Ivy Wall. I'm sure there are new books with updated tips.
Don't wait for high school. Start early to prepare your child. Get her/him a "career" (acting in local theater and commercials, e.g.) in addition to getting her/him lessons in tennis, languages, math, e.g., taking part in gifted programs and camps (TIP, e.g.), etc.
4
Yes, acting in TV commercials beginning at age 2 or 3 provides a solid foundation upon which to build. You're scary, Pecan...
3
This has been bubbling up for a while now. Look at the Espenshade study, and HarvardNotFair.org.
Professional sports choose by merit, and ignore race. And guess what? It turns out that African Americans are very high achievers in athletics; they've rightly earned their strong representation in sports. This is linked to Olympic sprinting superiority among not necessarily black people, but West African descended people. This had to be studied by a joint group of researchers from Duke and Howard (a historically black university), such that this science was not branded "racist":
http://pratt.duke.edu/news/speediest-athletes-its-all-center-gravity
East Asians and Ashkenazi Jews are similarly intellectually gifted. But, according to the Espenshade study, colleges are denying them entrance in favor of African Americans. Why?
Celebrating diversity does not mean giving favor to those of the currently fashionable race. It means recognizing that we're all legitimately diverse, and rewarding people based on merit, and not skin coloration.
Professional sports choose by merit, and ignore race. And guess what? It turns out that African Americans are very high achievers in athletics; they've rightly earned their strong representation in sports. This is linked to Olympic sprinting superiority among not necessarily black people, but West African descended people. This had to be studied by a joint group of researchers from Duke and Howard (a historically black university), such that this science was not branded "racist":
http://pratt.duke.edu/news/speediest-athletes-its-all-center-gravity
East Asians and Ashkenazi Jews are similarly intellectually gifted. But, according to the Espenshade study, colleges are denying them entrance in favor of African Americans. Why?
Celebrating diversity does not mean giving favor to those of the currently fashionable race. It means recognizing that we're all legitimately diverse, and rewarding people based on merit, and not skin coloration.
11
Harvard accepted 5.4% of applicants in 2014. There are hundreds if not thousands of qualified students who are rejected each year. Yet I'm sure tgey all get into top schools.
Is Harvard discriminating against violin players if they reject some and accept students who play other instruments? No one would suggest this is so.
Race is just one factor among many that a school uses to create a diverse student body. That seems like a legitimate goal. If there's something to complain about, it's legacy admissions.
Is Harvard discriminating against violin players if they reject some and accept students who play other instruments? No one would suggest this is so.
Race is just one factor among many that a school uses to create a diverse student body. That seems like a legitimate goal. If there's something to complain about, it's legacy admissions.
3
If the universities really believe in Affirmative Action, why don't they apply AA equally in graduate school admissions. Log on to the faculty websites in the science and engineering departments. Look at the pictures of the graduate research group members. How many African Ameicans do you see? Because if they don't have a large proportion of Asian graduate students in their lab, they will not be able to produce enough high-quality publications to keep their research grants coming. The Justice Department and the Supreme Court should force universities to apply same AA standards in both undergraduate and graduate admissions -- and then see what happens.
5
I do understand the principle behind this lawsuit, but it is very hard to work up much sympathy for the plaintiff, Mr. Jia. He was admitted to Duke, one of the most selective schools in the world with a stellar record of graduating leaders in every field, and he is complaining that he was not admitted to Harvard. Really!
There is an astonishing fetishization of the Ivy League in the United States today. Admission to one of them is seen as a kind of trophy for many students and their families. Of course, Ivy League schools are excellent, but they are not the best choice for everyone.
I certainly don't condone outright discrimination for anyone, Ivy League or not, but Mr. Jia's life is unlikely to be disadvantaged by attending Duke. I would love to see what the Duke administration thinks about his admission now. I certainly hope that he is not seeking cash compensation for the "suffering" he has incurred by having to attend Duke.
There is an astonishing fetishization of the Ivy League in the United States today. Admission to one of them is seen as a kind of trophy for many students and their families. Of course, Ivy League schools are excellent, but they are not the best choice for everyone.
I certainly don't condone outright discrimination for anyone, Ivy League or not, but Mr. Jia's life is unlikely to be disadvantaged by attending Duke. I would love to see what the Duke administration thinks about his admission now. I certainly hope that he is not seeking cash compensation for the "suffering" he has incurred by having to attend Duke.
7
I agree with your point. But It is not a matter of whether Jia is disadvantaged or not. There should be affirmative action for people who are disadvantaged. There should not be any difference between whites and asian americans. Both of these groups are equally advantaged, equally wealthy and have equal academic oppurtunities. But the princeton study points out that there is a massive 140 point difference between whites and asian americans.
2
It says toward the end of the article that Mr. Jia is NOT a party to this lawsuit.
Did you read the article???He is not part of the lawsuit and he did not denigrate the school at which he was accepted.
There is no perfect admission process, but the supreme court has said that race can be a factor considered in admission to obtain diversity on campus. In order to obtain diversity minority students must be comfortable in their classes and other areas. Being the only African American student in class and then in your dorm is isolating and exhausting experience. Studies have shown that you really need 10% of the student population to be made up of african americans for african americans to feel comfortable. Presently Harvard has 6.5% african american and 17/2% Asian. That means that Harvard is actually falling short on meeting the minimum number of students for african americans.
I knew of a computer lab at a university where the famous scientist who ran it was inundated with applications from people from cultures where failure could destroy entire families. He hesitated to accept/admit those people for fear of disasters, including suicide.
3
This report of discrimination to ivy league is just tip of the iceberg. Some other reports on discrimination to Medical schools in the country also reflecting this tendency. If we ever want to reach color-blind society, discrimination has to be stopped. The current lawsuit by Mr. Blum is just the beginning to a new, fair, and better society.
4
Check out Stanford. They actually put out a letter to their alumni telling them how the process works for legacy applicants. The application gets sent to the development office, who rank the applicants according to how much money their family has given. White privilege? No doubt. It's a club not a meritocracy.
One of my kids went to an Ivy League school that had more than its share of dumb-as-rocks legacies smattered among the overachievers. The other one of my kids is at UC Berkeley. I am proud of the fact that it is largely a meritocracy, where (aside from some star athletes) the only thing you can say about the admits is that they are smart.
Stanford, Harvard, etc. are private businesses. Were it not for the huge tax breaks and government research contracts they get, I would not care. I wouldn't take away the research contracts, but if you threaten their tax exempt status you can bet it will change fast.
One of my kids went to an Ivy League school that had more than its share of dumb-as-rocks legacies smattered among the overachievers. The other one of my kids is at UC Berkeley. I am proud of the fact that it is largely a meritocracy, where (aside from some star athletes) the only thing you can say about the admits is that they are smart.
Stanford, Harvard, etc. are private businesses. Were it not for the huge tax breaks and government research contracts they get, I would not care. I wouldn't take away the research contracts, but if you threaten their tax exempt status you can bet it will change fast.
5
To me, one of the most troubling aspects of the policy of these universities is to create this artificial "Asian" race. Saudi Arabians, Burmese, Naga, Bhutanese, and Japanese people have less in common then they share on any level of analysis. This would definitely include test scores, incomes, or historical inequities and injustices suffered.
Many Asian peoples had no script or writing systems as little as 120 years ago, akin to Native American people, and they come to US as refugees. I personally am married to a person of such descent, and my children are half "Asian" for that reason. How can this policy possibly be fair to these people if they are treated as "Asian" merely as an accident of geography without any consideration of the sociohistorical implications? The whole idea of Asian as a race is incredibly ignorant and offensive.
Many Asian peoples had no script or writing systems as little as 120 years ago, akin to Native American people, and they come to US as refugees. I personally am married to a person of such descent, and my children are half "Asian" for that reason. How can this policy possibly be fair to these people if they are treated as "Asian" merely as an accident of geography without any consideration of the sociohistorical implications? The whole idea of Asian as a race is incredibly ignorant and offensive.
4
Well, what do you think of American kids of South African ancestry?
Are they entitled to be African-Americans?
Wait what you say? It depends on what color their skin is?
Well now, isn't that just special.
Are they entitled to be African-Americans?
Wait what you say? It depends on what color their skin is?
Well now, isn't that just special.
1
For what it's worth, civil rights laws like Title VI speak to means, not ends. Whatever ends (goals) a university says it wants to promote, e.g., diversity or proportional representation by race, it may not do so under Title VI through the means of racial or ethnic discrimination if it wants to receive federal funds. Unlike a public university, thus, which is governed by the 14th Amendment, a private university like Harvard can discriminate all it wants so long as it is willing to forfeit its federal support.
If the USSC hears this case, there's little doubt how Justice Gorsuch would rule. As usual, thus, Justice Kennedy will control the outcome.
If the USSC hears this case, there's little doubt how Justice Gorsuch would rule. As usual, thus, Justice Kennedy will control the outcome.
2
Let the minorities (Blacks, Hispanics and Natives) have their quotas as it is now. But should not restrict number of Asian American admissions. Let them compete with the Whites for the remaining slots. Restricting Asian American numbers as it is done now is discriminatory.
5
Well, you know, Harvard and Yale could go the route that more and more schools do and eliminate reliance on standardized tests, which have themselves been accused of implicit bias. One in five students at Harvard is Asian. That is multiples of the ratio of Asians within the United States population. One reason California has a higher percentage of Asian students is because there is a higher percentage of Asian-Americans within the in-state applicant pool. Harvard is drawing or trying to draw from the whole country. Most Asian-Americans live within a few states: Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, Illinois, and California. That probably hamstrings them just as it does students in other groups. I don't want universities to adopt a quota based on race but it seems like students bringing this lawsuit have their own ingrained idea of what it means to be objectively more deserving of admission, and that might not be consistent with Harvard's admission criteria at all. My best friend from high school went to Harvard. From his experience, I can assure you that unless you have dreamed of working on Wall Street your whole life, your ambition, creativity and desire to change the world are a whole lot more important than admission to Harvard.
Isn't it odd that while the proportion of Asian Americans in the population has steadily increased over the last 20 years, the percentage of Asians in Ivy League schools remains rigidly fixed at 15%? As if someone has set a racial quota. How curious. Meanwhile in California, where public universities do not to use racial quotas to select their students, the proportion of Asians in the student body has risen at a rate mirroring the increase of Asians in the general US population. An often neglected fact stands -- that Asian Americans must score 100+ points better on the SAT and earn better GPAs than their White counterpart to gain admission to Ivy League colleges. That is not an opinion - it's a verifiable statistical metric. So why does this racial discrepancy at top colleges exist -- and persist, rather vivaciously? It may just be that we as a society are not ready to accept the sight of so many Asians at these top colleges.
12
The great irony of affirmative action that is done in the name of diversity, yet the targeted groups immediately self segregate and isolate themselves into Balkanized societies. . Worse, many lose their self esteem as they drown in academic work that for which they are ill prepared. For many, it is a cruel trick.
6
One way to settle this debate of whether discrimination occurred under the guise of "holistic admissions" is to make Harvard admissions officers revisit all the applications in a past year (and switch it up so they only read those applications they have not read), this time without the applicant's name and any information that could indicate his/her ethnicity. If the numbers admitted remain the same, then perhaps no discrimination occurred, but somehow I think under this method the percentages of each group accepted will wildly differ.
Or we could simply make Harvard release actual application data indicating what % of the applicant pool were Asian, White, Black, Hispanic, then see if each group is accepted at about the same rate. If 50% of the applicants are Asian but they make up only 22% of admits, while only 10% of applicants are black and they make up 14.3% of the admits, then you know something's up.
Sometimes I think it's actually a mistake for the Supreme Court to not allow race quotas, so that schools have to get around this by shrouding their admissions criteria in secrecy, leading to cries of unfairness from some groups. Perhaps the best way to go about this is to actually set strict race quotas corresponding to each group's actual representation in the general population, i.e. 66% white, 16% hispanic, 12% black, 6% Asian. Then within each group, make it strictly meritocratic based on grades and test scores, # of AP classes and scores. That's the fairest way.
Or we could simply make Harvard release actual application data indicating what % of the applicant pool were Asian, White, Black, Hispanic, then see if each group is accepted at about the same rate. If 50% of the applicants are Asian but they make up only 22% of admits, while only 10% of applicants are black and they make up 14.3% of the admits, then you know something's up.
Sometimes I think it's actually a mistake for the Supreme Court to not allow race quotas, so that schools have to get around this by shrouding their admissions criteria in secrecy, leading to cries of unfairness from some groups. Perhaps the best way to go about this is to actually set strict race quotas corresponding to each group's actual representation in the general population, i.e. 66% white, 16% hispanic, 12% black, 6% Asian. Then within each group, make it strictly meritocratic based on grades and test scores, # of AP classes and scores. That's the fairest way.
4
Good luck with that. Whites slack and count on white privilege. Asians push hard and apply at higher rates than 6%. Poor people don't apply at nearly the rates of their percent of population. These are broad racist classist generalizations, but you get the drift here.
3
That is really ridiculous. What does being white or black or asian have anything to do with how smart a person is.
May be we should do the same with our sports teams, huh? It would be a funny scene what NJ and Cali teams would look like.
May be we should do the same with our sports teams, huh? It would be a funny scene what NJ and Cali teams would look like.
The sins of our fathers are forgiven and forget and have no bearing on the current reality. Merit, only merit is the proper judge for qualifications. Moral courses. The wealthy have an advantage in admisions: cash, and legacy. Legacy is the best predictor of acceptance at Ivy league schools. , the remainer are accepted on other standards. And if you are not born intelligent you are out. Tough, that is darwinsim. So the battle is over who gets the remainder, the rules will reflect our morals, our relgions, our values.
2
Only 5% of the truly meritorious get admitted. It is much harder than you think.
Unfortunately, another poorly written piece of reporting by authors who are not a member of the population being discussed. Although subtle biases might be missed by less sophisticated readers, or perhaps readers less sensitive to this particular issue, I found it extremely difficult to stomach the undertones delivered through word choice and even the selection of Ms. Choi and Mr. Jia as a comparative case study. For instance, note that the article presents Mr. Jia (not admitted) as being focused on scores and grades. Of course, the authors describe him stressing activities that are typically associated with the Asian stereotype (violin, AA studies, tennis or golf etc). Compare this to Ms. Choi (admitted), who is described using traits which are perceived to be more atypical of the stereotype (student council, newspaper editor, latin club). It is obvious from the descriptions that they themselves are further enforcing the stereotypes, caused by the bias that the authors fail to recognize in themselves. I am Asian, a Harvard alum, and a supporter of affirmative action for the pursuit of diversity. However, it infuriates me that young Asian students, instead of pursuing their true passions, are being forced to design a "contra-Asian profile" for the sole purpose of disconnecting and distinguishing themselves from the Asian stereotype, so they may avoid discrimination by admissions officers and the general public. As a Trump-supporters might say, "SAD!"
15
I find the comments ironical; you encourage Asian to pursue "true passions" but then suggest they are being forced into a "contra Asian profile." Do you see the irony in this? You ironically suggests that an Asian's "true passions" are somehow homogeneous to all Asians, as if pursuing other things are contra-Asian. I have many Asian friends who want to force their children into engineering, law, and medicine even thought their children's passions lie elsewhere. Much of the pressure is imposed by parents and grandparents too.
1
First, I am having a bit of difficulty seeing how Harvard's admitting a higher percentage of Asian-Americans than any other minority is going to amount to discrimination against Asian-Americans.
Second, the people bringing this suit couldn't care less about Asian-Americans. They're doing this to get more white kids admitted, whether or not they're qualified. Most is never enough for these guys.
Second, the people bringing this suit couldn't care less about Asian-Americans. They're doing this to get more white kids admitted, whether or not they're qualified. Most is never enough for these guys.
2
I agree with your point. But my concern is the difference in admissions between asian americans and whites. How Asians have to fight and score more than whites (princeton study).
"A Princeton study found that students who identify as Asian need to score 140 points higher on the SAT than whites to have the same chance of admission to private colleges, a difference some have called “the Asian tax.”"
"A Princeton study found that students who identify as Asian need to score 140 points higher on the SAT than whites to have the same chance of admission to private colleges, a difference some have called “the Asian tax.”"
1
The need to have a diverse student body seems obvious to me. So keep a quota to ensure a sufficient number of black and Hispanic students. But then why are the numbers of Asian students being kept artificially low? Let them compete with the white kids straight up.
1
Why is a diverse student body a necessity? I don't argue that it isn't necessary, but I don't find it obvious that it is necessary. If you begin with an assumption then everything else is predicated on an assumption which may or may not be valid.
1
All affirmative action admissions should be based solely on socioeconomic factors, not on the basis of the flawed concept of race. Should the African-American daughter of two physicians be granted race as a tip factor.? How about Barrack's daughters?
11
At least he did not have to go to Rutgers.Austin,enjoy the mild winters in Durham and root for the Blue Devils basketball team.You will love your 4 years at Duke.
2
One thing I would like to point out. Going over the comments, it appears that most people equate Asian-American with East-Asian-American, i.e., of Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese ethnicity. However, Indian-Americans are also Asian-Americans and in my observation, have it as bad or perhaps even worse in elite-college admissions.
2
I am a South Asian. My daughter got into Harvard undergrad. My son didn't. My daughter didn't attend Harvard undergrad. She took a merit scholarship to the University of Maryland, came out with 0 dollars debt, went to U Penn med school and trained at Harvard in Infectious Diseases. My son who won a competitive merit scholarship to U Maryland attended for physics undergrad. He loved it and didn't moan over Harvard. He got his doctorate in Physics in Princeton and went to UCSF and Hopkins for his post doctoral studies. It all evens out. I am happy Harvard aims for diversity. I want black, and American Indian students, young folks from the refugee populations, kids from the inner cities from adverse circumstances who are high achievers despite challenges to get a shot at the IVY Leagues even though their test scores may not match those of my children. I didn't hold this view in the past. But I have changed. I try to put myself in the position of these minority kids. They often don't have the money to attend expensive tutorials, their schools may not offer them the same opportunities as the schools in upper middle class and rich neighborhoods, they may live in downtrodden and crime ridden areas, heck they may not even have the encouragement or the money to apply--but somehow they do-- and why shouldn't Harvard take them over my son who lived in a safe neighborhood and went to a decent public school? Harvard could eliminate legacy admissions to admit a Mr.Jia.
15
You don't have to go to an ivy league school to succeed in life.
A lot of the desire is status that comes with the brand, but school is not the same as buying a car. If the student body at these schools lack ethnic, monetary, cultural diversity, it will be killing the golden goose. One of the problems with Asian groups is that they are very uniform. So, a school with a high level of Asian will develop a reputation of graduating a certain skill set and that is all. Success is not dependent on a particular skill because the future is not certain. A society needs diverse people for diverse occupations. We need musicians, historians, engineers, doctors as well as anthropologists.
A lot of the desire is status that comes with the brand, but school is not the same as buying a car. If the student body at these schools lack ethnic, monetary, cultural diversity, it will be killing the golden goose. One of the problems with Asian groups is that they are very uniform. So, a school with a high level of Asian will develop a reputation of graduating a certain skill set and that is all. Success is not dependent on a particular skill because the future is not certain. A society needs diverse people for diverse occupations. We need musicians, historians, engineers, doctors as well as anthropologists.
2
My first example, your Honor:
Jared Kushner....
If not for Daddy's donations ($2.5million to Harvard in 1998) and political connections (Senator Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey and Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts) would not have been admitted to Harvard. Advisers and teachers from his high school were surprised when he got in, he was so unremarkable.
Jared Kushner....
If not for Daddy's donations ($2.5million to Harvard in 1998) and political connections (Senator Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey and Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts) would not have been admitted to Harvard. Advisers and teachers from his high school were surprised when he got in, he was so unremarkable.
3
When something, anything becomes awash with too many minorities, they are no longer a minority.
Now that California is a minority majority state, they eliminated affirmative action. I am only guessing it would be different or uncomfortable for whites to be able to secure AA status. No?
Now that California is a minority majority state, they eliminated affirmative action. I am only guessing it would be different or uncomfortable for whites to be able to secure AA status. No?
1
The rationale behind Affirmative Action is to redress some historical injustice toward members of a discriminated-against group. Thus we hear endless reiterations of slavery/Jim Crow to justify the preference given to African Americans. But what about the anti-Chinese measures in 20th-century California and the internment of Japanese Americans? What about the horrors suffered by refugees from Mao's China and Pol Pot's Cambodia? What about the intergenerational trauma of the Holocaust? Jared Kushner's grandmother literally crawled over corpses to get out of the Nazi ghetto in Byelorussia where her entire family was exterminated. And if you think there is no antisemitism and anti-Asian prejudice in the heartland today, you haven't been around much. So let's end this futile attempt to change the past and concentrate on the future by offering color-blind, ethnicity-blind admission. And if this means that Harvard is going to be 50 per cent Asian, so be it.
2
Here in California there was recently an article that forcing African-American students to take intermediate algebra to get into and graduate from the UC system is a civil rights issue since African Americans have difficulty in achieving that requirement. The solution? Eliminate the requirement.
2
The belief that "high G.P.A., nearly perfect SAT score and activities — debate team, tennis captain and state orchestra" should guarantee you admission to specific private colleges is patently absurd.
I had a high GPA in HS as well. I scored a 1560 out of 1600 on the SAT. I lettered in basketball and football. I served in the USAF and fought in a war. I'm straight, white, and male. I don't believe any of those things entitle me to admission at Harvard.
I had a high GPA in HS as well. I scored a 1560 out of 1600 on the SAT. I lettered in basketball and football. I served in the USAF and fought in a war. I'm straight, white, and male. I don't believe any of those things entitle me to admission at Harvard.
3
Perhaps not, but with your test scores and grades, YOU would almost certainly have been admitted to at least half of the Ivies had you applied.
And for the record, you would have been advantaged in that endeavor by being from Oregon and not New Jersey.
So Mr. Jia was right to be annoyed at his non-acceptances.
Perhaps he might have set his sights a bit wider, perhaps early admission, who knows?
And for the record, you would have been advantaged in that endeavor by being from Oregon and not New Jersey.
So Mr. Jia was right to be annoyed at his non-acceptances.
Perhaps he might have set his sights a bit wider, perhaps early admission, who knows?
1
"Diversity" is the alt-left's code word for discrimination against smarter, more motivated, better-performing white and Asian students in favor of blacks and Latinos who would otherwise be unqualified for admission. It's long past time to get rid of it.
When Prop 209, which banned affirmative action in college admissions, came into effect in California 20 years ago, so-called "underrepresented minority" applicants to the UC system were finally held to the same standards as white and Asian students, and their the admission rates dropped by more than 50 percent.
Asian students are truly the "underrepresented minority" in admissions to the elite colleges, because if objective race-blind standards of achievement were applied, they would easily be in the majority at the elite UCs and similar schools around the country. And, that's exactly as it should be.
When Prop 209, which banned affirmative action in college admissions, came into effect in California 20 years ago, so-called "underrepresented minority" applicants to the UC system were finally held to the same standards as white and Asian students, and their the admission rates dropped by more than 50 percent.
Asian students are truly the "underrepresented minority" in admissions to the elite colleges, because if objective race-blind standards of achievement were applied, they would easily be in the majority at the elite UCs and similar schools around the country. And, that's exactly as it should be.
3
Not at elite schools. Only 7% get admitted. Way more than that are way past qualified. There are not enough spots. Why not take a nice diverse selection?
The enslavement of Africans by the US governments and the slave owners was so complete and so destructive that it left its mark on future generations long after slavery was formally abolished. Affirmative action is about some small semblance of justice for the descendants of slaves.
Americans haven't been all that great to various ethnic groups, but, with the exception of Native Americans, none have been treated comparably to slaves.
Diversity is a joke. It is a post hoc justification for favoritism based on race, and has nothing to do with the quality of education.
It seems reasonable that affirmative action benefits should apply to African Americans and Native Americans, but not every person who is a member of a minority ethnic group.
Americans haven't been all that great to various ethnic groups, but, with the exception of Native Americans, none have been treated comparably to slaves.
Diversity is a joke. It is a post hoc justification for favoritism based on race, and has nothing to do with the quality of education.
It seems reasonable that affirmative action benefits should apply to African Americans and Native Americans, but not every person who is a member of a minority ethnic group.
3
Not sure Chinese railroad workers were treated graciously and "no Irish need apply" but whatever....
4
Are you not aware of the discrimination asians have suffered in the past century? It is not just African Americans and Native Americans who have been discriminated against.
AA should apply to lower income people, not just based on race. A rich minority student has the same advantages as anyone else and should not benefit from affirmative action.
AA should apply to lower income people, not just based on race. A rich minority student has the same advantages as anyone else and should not benefit from affirmative action.
2
This is bunk. I remember a few years back Asians only made up 2 or 3% of the US population but they made up 37% of Berkeley's students, definitely overshadowing whites.
I worked at Stanford for 14 yrs and know they turn down many students who make perfect scores on SAT/ACT. Stanford looks for students who are going to contribute to society and demonstrate passion and creativity, skills that the majority of Asians don't demonstrate. It's very likely that Mr. Jia would not be accepted to Stanford, given his legalism and sense of entitlement.
I worked at Stanford for 14 yrs and know they turn down many students who make perfect scores on SAT/ACT. Stanford looks for students who are going to contribute to society and demonstrate passion and creativity, skills that the majority of Asians don't demonstrate. It's very likely that Mr. Jia would not be accepted to Stanford, given his legalism and sense of entitlement.
3
This is not bunk. California universities do not use race as a factor and that is why the percentages are that high. The ivy league universities use race as a factor and that is why asians are a lower percentages there.
3
"Stanford looks for students who are going to contribute to society and demonstrate passion and creativity, skills that the majority of Asians don't demonstrate". If had some evidence that Asians contribute less to society, or demonstrate less passion or creativity, then maybe you'd have a point. Otherwise your statement is actually evidence of racial bias. If you worked at Stanford admissions that would be a problem. Most Asians I know support affirmative action for minorities who have been discriminated against. But it should be a level playing field for everyone else.
4
The goal posts will once again be moved when the Asian-American applicants to elite colleges become more "creative", "passionate" and "well-rounded" in addition to maintaining their stellar academic performance and extra-curricular activities; perhaps their well-rounded creativity and passion will be deemed to be foreign, affected and rehearsed.
4
So we are already there. A kid who is well-rounded would not tell me that the reason they've become excellent in [whatever] is that their mom made them do it.
Let’s do the math...
According to this article Harvard’s class of 2021 is:
22.2% Asian-American (who make up 5.6% of the general population (GP) and so are already over-represented by almost 4 times);
2.5% Native American or Pacific Islander (who make up 1.6% of the GP and so are 1.5 times over-represented);
14.6% African-American (who make up 13.2% of the GP and are thus only slightly over-represented);
11.6% Hispanic (who make up 17.1% of the GP and are significantly underrepresented);
So doing the math (since the percentage of Whites is not reported in the article or by Harvard), Whites make up 49.1% at Harvard as compared to 74.2% of the GP which means they are very substantially underrepresented.
What the Plaintiff in this case is arguing is that instead of the Ivy League being 99% White like in the old days it should be 99% White and Asian American. So my question is...what’s the Plaintiff’s position on what the percentage breakdown should be between Whites and Asian Americans...or would he be happy if it was just 99% Asian American?
According to this article Harvard’s class of 2021 is:
22.2% Asian-American (who make up 5.6% of the general population (GP) and so are already over-represented by almost 4 times);
2.5% Native American or Pacific Islander (who make up 1.6% of the GP and so are 1.5 times over-represented);
14.6% African-American (who make up 13.2% of the GP and are thus only slightly over-represented);
11.6% Hispanic (who make up 17.1% of the GP and are significantly underrepresented);
So doing the math (since the percentage of Whites is not reported in the article or by Harvard), Whites make up 49.1% at Harvard as compared to 74.2% of the GP which means they are very substantially underrepresented.
What the Plaintiff in this case is arguing is that instead of the Ivy League being 99% White like in the old days it should be 99% White and Asian American. So my question is...what’s the Plaintiff’s position on what the percentage breakdown should be between Whites and Asian Americans...or would he be happy if it was just 99% Asian American?
I think the plaintiff is arguing that he should not be judged by a higher standard simply because he is Asian.
3
Where does it say in the constitution of USA that everything has to be distributed in ratio of contrived demographic categories. If everything has to be distributed as per population metrics, then why this charade of SAT, GPA, etc.
2
Here is a question: what was Jia's unweighted GPA? Universities know the game that high schools play, and unweighted he could have had under a 4.0. Further, everyone and their mother applying to these top schools has a high GPA, high test scores, and every club and sport under the sun. You have to really, really stand out to be admitted - maybe his essay stunk?
3
White females have been the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action, both in education and the workplace.
I’ll bet that fact is lost to most conservative who are cheering this suit on, and pitting one minority group against others.
BTW, open up the education gates to the highest high-achieving Asians worldwide, and there will be almost no whites either, male or female, on elite campuses.
I’ll bet that fact is lost to most conservative who are cheering this suit on, and pitting one minority group against others.
BTW, open up the education gates to the highest high-achieving Asians worldwide, and there will be almost no whites either, male or female, on elite campuses.
3
Harvard is looking to educate the future leaders of the country. If every kid had the same upbringing as this one, is this going to be the case?
I see your point, every asian overachieving kid is the same, regardless of their country of origin (e.g. india vs korean) and their economic standing (apparently all of them must be rich) and the types of jobs/businesses their parents do - right?
1
This seems a misguided case. Asians are well represented at Harvard. Meaning, as a percentage of the student body, there are more Asians than as a percentage of the American population. But that's only one element of this issue. A more important element is the yardstick used to evaluate applicants at Harvard. Are our courts going to tell Harvard - a private school - how to rate applicants? Austin Jia claims that non-Asian classmates with a lower score than he were admitted to Harvard. Maybe they had more ingenuity. Maybe they had better personalities. Maybe they possessed leadership abilities void in Mr. Jia's persona. I don't know, and neither will the courts. But I know it's not all about grades. This case amounts to yet another assault from white America on diversity. They're cleverly using Asians as the catalyst, but their agenda is white America. If they can crack Harvard with Asians, whites will benefit. They'll need one more vote on SCOTUS. Kennedy will swing left.
Suing Harvard, what a joke. All they need to do is use the Kushner playbook, have your father as a known criminal who donates $2.5 million to the school, and presto, Jared is admitted to Harvard, Even his high school, the Frisch School in Paramus, was surprised he was admitted when more qualified students from the school were rejected. Gee, how did G.W. Bush get into Yale, given his prep school average was C, eh, and look at the damage done in that situation.
2
Even though this suit was filed a couple years ago, I'm glad to see it talked about now. Educational access barriers to Asian Americans have long been ignored.
For those who are calling for "race-blind" admissions: such a thing does not exist. We live in a time and place where race fundamentally and materially affects who we are. Mr. Jia, quoted in this article, is questioning the myth of American meritocracy and his role in it as an Asian American, because he feels discriminated against. Do you not think this experience will shape his perspective? Or do you just think he shouldn't be allowed to talk about his experience as a minority?
For those who are calling for "race-blind" admissions: such a thing does not exist. We live in a time and place where race fundamentally and materially affects who we are. Mr. Jia, quoted in this article, is questioning the myth of American meritocracy and his role in it as an Asian American, because he feels discriminated against. Do you not think this experience will shape his perspective? Or do you just think he shouldn't be allowed to talk about his experience as a minority?
4
The legacy program is important to colleges because often the children of these legacy families donate vast amounts of money to the colleges they attended. For example if an alumnae donates money to build a concert hall which in turn is named after the donor, how can the college reject the child of this family? These schools are private institutions and have to survive as any business would. Whether people like it or not it's a valid reality. By the way I went to a public college in New York City because that was all my family could afford but fully understand why colleges do this. It would be naive to think otherwise.
7
My son had stellar high school achievements: 4 years of hands-on & VP of his award winning high school Robotics club, Lead/organizer of his Church in adopting inner city "Feed the Hungry" activities, National Merit finalist, State semi-finalist Presidential scholar, Perfect ACT scores, Perfect scores in AP (Adv. Physics C, Calculus BC, Chemistry, Biology, Statistics), and SAT subjects (STEM). Yet he was not admitted to any of the Ivy schools. Although his achievements and scores seemed far above the admitted students, to this day we do not know what other considerations were weighted that denied his admission. He is of (south) Asian ancestry. Something does not seem right.
My son attended a leading mid-western university which awarded him 48 (semester) credit hours for his 13+ AP level classes, and $33,000 merit scholarship over 4 years of engineering.
My son attended a leading mid-western university which awarded him 48 (semester) credit hours for his 13+ AP level classes, and $33,000 merit scholarship over 4 years of engineering.
6
First generation Asians have only one way out to make it in this country, and that is Education. Asians do not have well entrenched social connections that would help them all sorts of information and opportunities. Whatever information they get is from Schools or Places of Work or from within their own community. Just to give an example, most Asians don't know at a personal level someone say who is a Lawyer or a Farmer or Mayor or a Policeman a Judge or Writer or an artist or someone in an important position somewhere.
Knowing that Education is the only way out, Asians usually end up working very hard and do very well in academics. Lack of proper social connections keeps their interests and passions limited to only what they encounter.
Coming to admission processes in top Universities, I understand that the Universities are looking at some "special" talents outside of academics but I would appreciate if they attempt to understand better background from which the students come from.
Knowing that Education is the only way out, Asians usually end up working very hard and do very well in academics. Lack of proper social connections keeps their interests and passions limited to only what they encounter.
Coming to admission processes in top Universities, I understand that the Universities are looking at some "special" talents outside of academics but I would appreciate if they attempt to understand better background from which the students come from.
11
Listening to the conversations of the Asian Americans I sit around at work, this is a popular topic. Those with high school age kids go on about how hard it is for their children to get into the most competitive colleges. These parents, like their Caucasian upper middle class counterparts here in the suburbs of NY, have spent years grooming their children with the singular goal of getting into one of the Ivy's. It is all about GPA, AP courses and bolstering their kids resumes with activities.
I am all for capping the number of students, regardless of ethnicity, from these upper middle class enclaves and admitting more students from the less well to do areas of our suburbs and country.
I am all for capping the number of students, regardless of ethnicity, from these upper middle class enclaves and admitting more students from the less well to do areas of our suburbs and country.
7
What if said students from "less well to do" areas are less qualified? Did you even read the article?
2
Race-conscious and affirmative action are not synonymous. Race-conscious admissions policies (along with admission policies that consider socioeconomic status) allow admissions officers to consider the broader makeup of an incoming class in order to achieve diversity of thought, experience, and culture. Yes, a purely numbers based admissions system would be fairer, but it would not be equitable and it would certainly sacrifice much more than we would gain. An admissions process that is a pure meritocracy would yield classes in which students overwhelmingly share the same background and privileges. This would essentially defeat the mission of colleges and universities: to enrich students by pushing them past what they already know. If Harvard has an explicit quota system it should be struck down as it is unconstitutional. If not, all that is at issue here is unfairness at the hands of a process that can never and should never be truly fair.
3
let's just get rid of students who gain access because of: wealthy parents who donate, legacy, or athletics. That will provide enough space for many more students who are qualified and possess interesting, potential-filled, profiles.
11
I taught high school English at a prestigious suburban high school. I had the opportunity to listen to high performing students lament about not getting into their first choice schools even though their grades were good enough. I use to tell these lamenting students; I'm not sure where you will be accepted to college, but you will be accepted because you're smart and wonderful. You should be counting your blessings because most people in America do not go to college. My comments, complimentary and sobering, always worked; it was almost a relief to students who are simply looking for approval. This disappointment (if one can even call it it that) will not be Mr. Jia or the thousands of others whose lives will not be marred by such things. Mr. Jia, like so many of today's generation, initially see the half empty instead of the FULL glass. These are the same students whose helicopter parents complain to teachers about grades, call their college professors, call employers when their children do not receive jobs, and encourage these law suits. The bias against Asian Americans is hard to swallow at a time when "Asian American are the highest-income, best-educated and fastest-growing racial group in the U.S... By their own accounts, many Asians say their parents put too much pressure on their children to succeed according to the Pew Research Center (www.pewsocialtrends.org/asianamericans-graphics/). My hope is Mr. Jia is simply happy & healthy. He's at Duke; we know he's smart.
5
The social engineering project called affirmative action must be dismantled.
It should instead change to something that reflects economic status and based on that need. Not color or race alone.
And what about mixed races? What box do they fall into or check off?
It should instead change to something that reflects economic status and based on that need. Not color or race alone.
And what about mixed races? What box do they fall into or check off?
4
I really struggled through out my formal education. My mother was divorced and struggling to pay rent, bills etc. For a period of time my mother and I lived in a women's shelter. I grew up with no furniture in my apartment for three years and we never had cable. We never used the air conditioning and really worked hard. But often times I can see the indifference and judgements people have without even knowing me and my background. I got no financial aid at NYU. But when I apply to grad school I will probably be penalized for being Asian. I was told this by the head of admissions at a university in Philadelphia. But I guess I am not well rounded. The harder we work the worse the stereotypes. Its isolating and exhausting. I admire the parents that sent their kids for tutoring. If you are a minority and are poor you are blamed for not pulling yourself out of poverty and taking up tax dollars. If you are successful and work extremely hard then you are not well rounded or just another Asian doing well. Sorry to say but I have seen this my entire life. And I have one word for it: Racism.
16
This is a no-brainer. There is and always has been discrimination against Asians. Years ago, there was a bill passed in Congress which literally discriminated against those minorities. Not surprising that Harvard is guilty, although this is not their intention because they are attempting to follow affirmative action guidelines. However, on it's face it is ridiculous to ration spaces for those who are the best and brightest, regardless of ethnicity.
2
I will just add that Caltech is not part of the UC state public university system. I worked on undergraduate admissions there, which is completely merit based and without any quotas for balancing any sort of "diversity profile" --this includes the admission of women into the undergraduate fold. Admission based on an individual's scholarly and non-scholarly pursuits (e.g., leadership, arts, etc) leads to the undergraduate make up that you see here, which can serve as its own metric for consideration in this discussion. If this is an element that applicants think is important, they can account for it in their choices of colleges, regardless of what the result of this lawsuit brings.
8
The major flaw in Mr. Jia's reasoning is that he believes his test scores and grades warrant his admission into Harvard. Although they are impressive, there are plenty of applicants who have the same credentials. Furthermore, test scores and grades are an indication of whether a student can thrive in that academic environment. After you get past a certain threshold (usually around 2250), the school stops caring about the score. Generally, the bar can be lowered if a student is low income.
Another problem I notice is that Asian Americans tend to follow the similar academic and extra-curricular paths. Harvard can only accept so many Debate Captains, Math Team Members, and Piano players. There are specific niches and roles that need to be filled on campus, and Harvard would be a very boring place if everyone was just a passionless nerd that studied all day.
Another problem I notice is that Asian Americans tend to follow the similar academic and extra-curricular paths. Harvard can only accept so many Debate Captains, Math Team Members, and Piano players. There are specific niches and roles that need to be filled on campus, and Harvard would be a very boring place if everyone was just a passionless nerd that studied all day.
4
My sense. too. No one has a right to get into any private college because grades, scores, extracurriculars "qualified" them, whatever that means.
Within broad limits, a college has the right to pick its students. Harvard seeks student who will make Harvard Harvard, not Chicago, MIT or Stanford. Only so many Asian kids from Westchester or LA County. Only so many preppie lacrosse players from Andover/Exeter.
No one has yet convinced me this lawsuit advances a legitimate social purpose. If top colleges were grossly discriminating against Asian applicants, that would be one thing. But colleges slice and dice their applicant pool in all sorts of ways to fit them into this or that silo. And if a college decides it wants only ten kids from a particular silo, well, it's going to hurt if you're number 11.
To me, the real crisis is poor kids. Too few of them in top schools. Or colleges of any kind.
Within broad limits, a college has the right to pick its students. Harvard seeks student who will make Harvard Harvard, not Chicago, MIT or Stanford. Only so many Asian kids from Westchester or LA County. Only so many preppie lacrosse players from Andover/Exeter.
No one has yet convinced me this lawsuit advances a legitimate social purpose. If top colleges were grossly discriminating against Asian applicants, that would be one thing. But colleges slice and dice their applicant pool in all sorts of ways to fit them into this or that silo. And if a college decides it wants only ten kids from a particular silo, well, it's going to hurt if you're number 11.
To me, the real crisis is poor kids. Too few of them in top schools. Or colleges of any kind.
1
Ivies, especially HYP, are so hard to get into that perfect scores and grades are not enough. I speak from personal experience from applying in 2008, and now doing alumni interviews for a HYP school. These schools are looking for people with passion, who will make a difference in their communities. Having a cookie cutter resume with perfect grades will not necessarily put a student ahead of someone with slightly lower grades. I understand this student feels slighted, but without knowing the other classmates' full activities and personal statements, it's VERY hard to say if this is race based. I'll be interested to see what an investigation concludes.
6
There are a lot of conservatives who are cheering on this lawsuit because they think it would only hurt blacks.
“Hard-working” is a term that takes on different meanings. If you are able to obediently and robotically plug-into a centuries old way of approaching studying; coupled with the support and threats from parents, then the less that individual initiative is required. You follow the script.
Contrast this to the black kid who doesn’t have this benefit. He also deals with the soul-crushing effects of racism, both “microaggressive” and more blatant; and is more likely to be surrounded, due to segregation, to fewer successful role-models and cheer leaders.
It’s not difficult to see that his “hard-working” path towards admission to an elite college requires a great deal of personal courage, sacrifice, perseverance, and commitment.
Ditto, minus the enormities of racial discrimination, for the working-class white kid from rural America.
“Hard-working” is a term that takes on different meanings. If you are able to obediently and robotically plug-into a centuries old way of approaching studying; coupled with the support and threats from parents, then the less that individual initiative is required. You follow the script.
Contrast this to the black kid who doesn’t have this benefit. He also deals with the soul-crushing effects of racism, both “microaggressive” and more blatant; and is more likely to be surrounded, due to segregation, to fewer successful role-models and cheer leaders.
It’s not difficult to see that his “hard-working” path towards admission to an elite college requires a great deal of personal courage, sacrifice, perseverance, and commitment.
Ditto, minus the enormities of racial discrimination, for the working-class white kid from rural America.
3
I see many comments questioning the value of high GPA's, book-learning etc. That's not the issue here. It's an issue of fairness. Why should a hard-working kid who has done everything 'required' by ivy-league colleges be 'not preferred' because of his/her race?
In America?
In America?
5
Without reasonable, compassionate diversity objectives, colleges would be 95% Asian, Jews, children of immigrants, women and foreign students. What is more, many more qualities come into play in terms of having a successful experience in college and in life than SATs and GPAs
2
krubin,
Your comment reeks of support for affirmative action for white males, of course the most downtrodden among us.... Your "compassionate diversity objectives" would lead to the wholesale discrimination against all women, Jews, and Asian Americans. And you're fine with this. Are you listening to what you're saying? Perhaps women, Jews and Asians are over-represented among those groups who take their studies seriously and work harder. Your response is that we should show "compassion" for folks like white men, because they're entitled to the same rewards even when they've failed to make the same efforts, or else, heavens, 95% of higher ed admissions might be comprised of those who work hardest. Here's a tip, krubin, the day when white guys could get anything they wanted with little or no effort are long gone. Time for them to get to work like the rest of us.
Your comment reeks of support for affirmative action for white males, of course the most downtrodden among us.... Your "compassionate diversity objectives" would lead to the wholesale discrimination against all women, Jews, and Asian Americans. And you're fine with this. Are you listening to what you're saying? Perhaps women, Jews and Asians are over-represented among those groups who take their studies seriously and work harder. Your response is that we should show "compassion" for folks like white men, because they're entitled to the same rewards even when they've failed to make the same efforts, or else, heavens, 95% of higher ed admissions might be comprised of those who work hardest. Here's a tip, krubin, the day when white guys could get anything they wanted with little or no effort are long gone. Time for them to get to work like the rest of us.
1
There is a reason why you are still required to submit a personal essay. Often you have to answer a series of short questions in addition to the essay. Why?
Because GPA, AP courses, and leadership/participation in a variety of clubs only shows that you saw a roadmap and followed it, but it doesn't demonstrate character, resilience to hardship, or the kind of unusual brilliance that a university classroom needs. This isn't about being Asian-American; it's about the fact that any person with enough discipline, willpower, and opportunities/affluent parents will get a similar high school record. Like a perfect SAT score, it's not typical, but it doesn't mean you're brilliant either.
Furthermore, the goal of elite higher education isn't just to get straight As and a well-paying job after graduation; places like Harvard want to promote discussion, the kind of intellectual discomfort and culture shock that forces a student and scholar to rethink previous positions and attitudes. If a college doesn't ensure they have significant populations of different people, they literally can't offer that environment to the people who get in.
Because GPA, AP courses, and leadership/participation in a variety of clubs only shows that you saw a roadmap and followed it, but it doesn't demonstrate character, resilience to hardship, or the kind of unusual brilliance that a university classroom needs. This isn't about being Asian-American; it's about the fact that any person with enough discipline, willpower, and opportunities/affluent parents will get a similar high school record. Like a perfect SAT score, it's not typical, but it doesn't mean you're brilliant either.
Furthermore, the goal of elite higher education isn't just to get straight As and a well-paying job after graduation; places like Harvard want to promote discussion, the kind of intellectual discomfort and culture shock that forces a student and scholar to rethink previous positions and attitudes. If a college doesn't ensure they have significant populations of different people, they literally can't offer that environment to the people who get in.
2
This is a complicated and difficult issue and I am sympathetic to east-Asians who feel they are being discriminated against. However I would be more sympathetic if they were targeting legacy admissions which make up a substantial portion of most top-school admissions. Having parents who graduated from a top school should be an advantage in their upbringing without adding to it a "legacy admission" advantage.
If the conservative groups backing these lawsuits were truly interested in equity they would be targeting legacy admissions. It makes me very suspicious that racism is lurking somewhere.
If the conservative groups backing these lawsuits were truly interested in equity they would be targeting legacy admissions. It makes me very suspicious that racism is lurking somewhere.
4
There is no racial or ethnic discrimination at the elite schools - all applicants are, in addition to GPA, SAT scores, extracurricular activities etc subject to one simple and fairly applied additional test: Will the applicant increase or decrease the school's desired level of diversity ? Diversity is a necessary part of any quality education.
My kids (who both went to Ivy League schools ) had lots of advantages including great public schools, a culture stressing the importance of education, and privately run classes on how to do well on the SATs. If some student raised in poverty with peers who looked down on anyone who was academically successful with none of those advantages managed to score within 200 points of my kids SAT score I believe that kid is smarter and more qualified.
My kids (who both went to Ivy League schools ) had lots of advantages including great public schools, a culture stressing the importance of education, and privately run classes on how to do well on the SATs. If some student raised in poverty with peers who looked down on anyone who was academically successful with none of those advantages managed to score within 200 points of my kids SAT score I believe that kid is smarter and more qualified.
1
European education has its problems (mostly related to funding) but it seems to do fine without caring about 'diversity', and instead worrying about admitting the most qualified students, period, in their most prestigious universities.
I don't see Cambridge worried that they're admitting "too many" Indians or Ecole Normale Superieure wringing its hands over admitting too many qualified Chinese. Come to think of it, I also don't see Caltech or Berkeley having a breakdown over their large international/Asian-American populations. In fact they seem to be doing better than ever, because their students are supremely qualified. So why is it so difficult for Harvard and the other Ivies to be more meritocratic?
Of course, this is a rhetorical question. We all know why.
I don't see Cambridge worried that they're admitting "too many" Indians or Ecole Normale Superieure wringing its hands over admitting too many qualified Chinese. Come to think of it, I also don't see Caltech or Berkeley having a breakdown over their large international/Asian-American populations. In fact they seem to be doing better than ever, because their students are supremely qualified. So why is it so difficult for Harvard and the other Ivies to be more meritocratic?
Of course, this is a rhetorical question. We all know why.
5
Until every American child has the same advantages K-12 colleges should step in and give kids who've struggled without family money, SAT prep courses, tutors, and parental moral support or mentors the chance to succeed (my immigrant parents didn't even know what the SAT was, I heard about it from my fellow high school students). Otherwise we just become England where everyone's condemned to whatever class they're born to. Even if Harvard, Penn, and the rest went 100% Asian there would still be thousands of highly qualified Asian students who couldn't get in. There's too much supply of highly motivated kids (and more coming down the pike) and just not enough Ivies. Also, some of our most successful citizens didn't go to an Ivy and some of my friends who went to Ivies aren't successful, so there's that.
1
I am an Asian-American that went to an Ivy League many years ago and know many people like Mr. Jia. It's tough to say whether he deserved admissions based on his abridged resume in the article, but this is a larger problem that plagues the Asian-American community. You could have a white, privileged student with the same resume, same social skills, same everything as an Asian-Aerican student competing for the one spot-- without a doubt, the spot will go to the white kid. Affirmative action should be based on socioeconomic status. Let the kids (whatever race he/she is) who grew up in inner-cities who can't pay someone to take the SAT for them, can't pay someone to write their college admissions essay for them, can't afford test preporation classes, and can't even afford even preparation books attend Ivy Leagues. Let the kids who had to go to low-budget public high schools, who didn't have access to clubs or AP classes attend Ivy Leagues. Give those people a chance instead of the Jared and Joshua Kushners of the world who can afford to attend elite private high schools and essentially buy their way into Ivy Leagues. Not sure race-blind admissions will be done. Not choosing to list race on the common app is (I believe) optional but finding out someone's race can easily be done other ways.
4
Asians are going to refuse to remain invisible.
The blatant racism in these comments are a sight to behold. I challenge anyone who comments along the lines of "Asians just study too much and need to get out of the library" to reflect on the statement "blacks don't study enough and need to go to the library". One needs a heaping helping of cognitive dissonance to find only one of these statements offensive.
One needs to redefine racism in order to justify this type of thinking. Asians are required to be invisible in this magical thinking. The term "disadvantaged minority" came into the lexicon with the sole purpose of excluding inconvenient Asians.
Feel free to to employ your isolated demands of rigor for interpreting what is a measure of racism. Surely disparate impacts are meaningful for one race and should be completely ignored with another.
This is unjustifiable, and many of the comments here reflect the very definition of racism in a transparently incoherent argument to solve the problem.
The blatant racism in these comments are a sight to behold. I challenge anyone who comments along the lines of "Asians just study too much and need to get out of the library" to reflect on the statement "blacks don't study enough and need to go to the library". One needs a heaping helping of cognitive dissonance to find only one of these statements offensive.
One needs to redefine racism in order to justify this type of thinking. Asians are required to be invisible in this magical thinking. The term "disadvantaged minority" came into the lexicon with the sole purpose of excluding inconvenient Asians.
Feel free to to employ your isolated demands of rigor for interpreting what is a measure of racism. Surely disparate impacts are meaningful for one race and should be completely ignored with another.
This is unjustifiable, and many of the comments here reflect the very definition of racism in a transparently incoherent argument to solve the problem.
13
It's amazing to me how many commenters are complaining about admission criteria for Asian American students with very little knowledge of how many international students, who pay a higher tuition than American students at many schools, are getting admitted. I whole heartedly support affirmative action programs to redress the centuries of discrimination. However, let's take a look at the issue of rich international kids taking the spots of deserving American students. The international students are, in many cases, perpetuating a global elite/oligarchy.
1
Choosing one person over another using race as a discriminator is racial discrimination and is, or should be illegal. Having said that, legacy admissions at elite schools disproportionately favor whites and should also be illegal. you can't condemn one form of racial discrimination while condoning another.
1
A Princeton University study on how race and ethnicity affected admissions showed that African American students received a "bonus" of 230 points on the SAT, Hispanics received a "bonus" of 185 points, while Asians were given a "penalty" of 50 points.
I'm not sure how much better you could define race-based discrimination.
And I've been a supporter of Affirmative Action.
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20...
I'm not sure how much better you could define race-based discrimination.
And I've been a supporter of Affirmative Action.
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20...
55
The intent of affirmative action is to handicap the field of applicants so that those from "groups" that traditionally have a lower chance of occupying the higher roles of society (due to historical and ongoing oppression) have a better chance of being upwardly mobile. I think elite schools now view part of their mandate as being agents for upward social mobility. If there are so many Asians are performing so well academically (and filling the ranks of the Ivies and other schools like- god forbid- Duke), then perhaps they aren't in need of a leg up.
Any sort of handicapping based on race is obviously fraught with issues of fairness (do rich black kids deserve a leg up?), but the current system, which gives a hand to kids from cultures that aren't typically obsessed with achievement, seems better than what this lawsuit is arguing for.
Any sort of handicapping based on race is obviously fraught with issues of fairness (do rich black kids deserve a leg up?), but the current system, which gives a hand to kids from cultures that aren't typically obsessed with achievement, seems better than what this lawsuit is arguing for.
7
Asians are a "culture obsessed with achievement"? These are the sorts of casual stereotypes which belie the idea that Asian don't need to be protected from discrimination.
2
One thing I don't understand (and forgive me if I am a stupid foreigner) - the SAT is an externally marked exam but is the "GPA" determined by teachers? (unlike in other countries with externally marked subject exams at 18). If so, what prevents teachers from being subject to immense pressures from parents to give high grades? And how do colleges differentiate between schools? Also, can parents determine whether kids attend "AP" classes, or do the children have to pass (externally marked) exams in order to do so? If not, then again, as others here have commented, CVs full of "AP" classes can mean very little.
2
Yes, there are externally marked AP exams. Transcripts from high schools also include information about the level of difficulty of different courses (calculus-based physics, algebra-based physics, introductory physics, etc). Schools could pass students along based on parent whining or bribing, but colleges here have a pretty good idea of whether students from a given school perform well or not. You can fool an Ivy, but not for long. They've got lots of data. High schools have this data too. There is a tool that lets schools, parents and students see who from their high school applied, got an offer and went to any college. They don't show numbers below 10 or 20 or something for privacy reasons, but if a student knows their GPA and SAT, they can see what admissions students with similar scores got for a whole range of colleges. That allows students to pick stretch, safety and target colleges to which to apply.
Yes, GPAs are based on school/teacher discretion. The high schools (at least the ones that feed into the highly selective schools) usually submit some sort of distribution or indication of the distribution of GPAs and availability of AP courses. This is imprecise but (conventional wisdom is that) the admissions officers generally have some understanding of how rigorous a particular student's course load is given the admissions officer's past experience with the secondary school.
A more cynical view is that GPA allows admissions officers to put less emphasis on SAT/ACT, which are standardized and reflect the typical racial disparities seen in the U.S.
A more cynical view is that GPA allows admissions officers to put less emphasis on SAT/ACT, which are standardized and reflect the typical racial disparities seen in the U.S.
In case no one answers you:
1. Grade Point Average (gpa) is technically determined by teachers since they have the last word on a student's grade. Some would say the they merely "record" what the student earns based on an established rubric.
2. Some teachers do indeed succumb to external pressure to change grades (particularly when athletes are involved) but I would say that the vast majority are independent.
3. How colleges differentiate one school from another is completely subjective. You can have a 4.0 gpa in a terrible school but a 3.5 from a great school so you have to rely on statistics and other metrics.
4. Yes, students and parents decide whether or not to take AP classes. Completely optional but some now think that it is a de facto requirement for high achievers.
5. I am assuming that "CV" means transcript. IMO, AP classes are but one of many indicators of academic potential. Besides, some schools don't offer as many (if any) as others.
...and, there are thousands and thousands of students who are very "book smart" but have no individual initiative or creativity.
1. Grade Point Average (gpa) is technically determined by teachers since they have the last word on a student's grade. Some would say the they merely "record" what the student earns based on an established rubric.
2. Some teachers do indeed succumb to external pressure to change grades (particularly when athletes are involved) but I would say that the vast majority are independent.
3. How colleges differentiate one school from another is completely subjective. You can have a 4.0 gpa in a terrible school but a 3.5 from a great school so you have to rely on statistics and other metrics.
4. Yes, students and parents decide whether or not to take AP classes. Completely optional but some now think that it is a de facto requirement for high achievers.
5. I am assuming that "CV" means transcript. IMO, AP classes are but one of many indicators of academic potential. Besides, some schools don't offer as many (if any) as others.
...and, there are thousands and thousands of students who are very "book smart" but have no individual initiative or creativity.
Not sure how I feel about the core issue of affirmative action, but I will say this: there are a lot of people in the world -- students and parents alike -- who would benefit greatly from learning how to deal with disappointment.
LAF
Harvard Class of 19XX
LAF
Harvard Class of 19XX
20
I taught high school English at a prestigious suburban high school. I had the opportunity to listen to high performing students lament about not getting into their first choice schools even though their grades were good enough. I use to tell these lamenting students; I'm not sure where you will be accepted to college, but you will be accepted because you're smart and wonderful. You should be counting your blessings because most people in America do not go to college. My comments, complimentary and sobering, always worked; it was almost a relief to students who are simply looking for approval. This disappointment (if one can even call it it that) will not be Mr. Jia or the thousands of others whose life will not be marred by such things. Mr. Jia, like so many of today's generation, initially see the half empty instead of the FULL glass. These are the same students whose helicopter parents complain to teachers about grades, call their college professors, call employers when their children do not receive jobs, and encourage these law suits. The bias against Asian Americans is hard to swallow at a time when "Asian American are the highest-income, best-educated and fastest-growing racial group in the U.S... By their own accounts, many Asians say their parents put too much pressure on their children to succeed according to the Pew Research Center (www.pewsocialtrends.org/asianamericans-graphics/). My hope is Mr. Jia is simply happy & healthy. He's at Duke; we know he's smart.
11
Jesus Christ. Somewhat an article about how Asians are hurt by affirmative action turned into comments about why Asians are uncreative thus are unworthy of admission of elite schools.
I seriously doubt commenters who are claiming Asians are uncreative personally know any Asian in real life.
I seriously doubt commenters who are claiming Asians are uncreative personally know any Asian in real life.
126
I've now interviewed hundreds of students. There are kids of tiger parents of all colors. Tiger parents are real, and their kids are browbeaten, lack creativity and exhibit signs of exhaustion and nervous disorders. Those are a real cry for help, but not for admission to a nerve-wracking college.
1
Of course everyone takes comments to the extreme. I think the point is that many put a disproportionate amount of effort into the "numbers" and thus lack other skills that constitue a well-rounded individual.
Pick a race/culture, someone will bring up a sterotype...
Pick a race/culture, someone will bring up a sterotype...
A major problem is who decide what is "well-rounded".
Too often definition of "well-rounded" is have upbringing of upper class who are legacy(i.e. could afford buy an admission to elite colleges).
Any applicants didn't pick their parents carefully at birth are disadvantaged.
Too often definition of "well-rounded" is have upbringing of upper class who are legacy(i.e. could afford buy an admission to elite colleges).
Any applicants didn't pick their parents carefully at birth are disadvantaged.
Very very interesting perspective on the affirmative action concept. Most people automatically think "white student discrimination" when AA is discussed, but other groups are forgotten, like Asians. Are we bigots to say Asians are being discriminated against in college admissions processes? Or are we bigots when we say whites are being discriminated against? Is a bigot a bigot only when it concerns a specific race?
4
The myriad comments here make obvious the socially accepted racism against asians that is pervasive today, most painfully from the demographic that claims to abhor racism. Asians are not all parent trained uncreative automatons studying to the test. This is a racist trope, which has as much truth as any other racist trope. If you have found yourself repeating it, you need to ask yourself, is this right?
The path that leads here is the trojan horse of affirmative action. The very idea that just a little racism can fix racism leads to making broad racial judgments to justify the case. It is wrong and destructive, leaving no solid logical footing to stand on. Socioeconomic factors could replace this, and most importantly, remove race from the equation. The best way to stop racial discrimination is to stop discriminating based on race.
The path that leads here is the trojan horse of affirmative action. The very idea that just a little racism can fix racism leads to making broad racial judgments to justify the case. It is wrong and destructive, leaving no solid logical footing to stand on. Socioeconomic factors could replace this, and most importantly, remove race from the equation. The best way to stop racial discrimination is to stop discriminating based on race.
49
These things always play out the same way:
- Many Asian-American and white students complain because otherwise qualified African-American or Hispanic students are given some preference in admissions.
- Many Asian-American and white students do not complain when entitled, spoiled, wealthy, white kids who are often otherwise unqualified, are given some preference in admissions.
If we are to end affirmative action for racial minorities, it is certainly time to end affirmative action for the sons and daughters of the entitled classes.
- Many Asian-American and white students complain because otherwise qualified African-American or Hispanic students are given some preference in admissions.
- Many Asian-American and white students do not complain when entitled, spoiled, wealthy, white kids who are often otherwise unqualified, are given some preference in admissions.
If we are to end affirmative action for racial minorities, it is certainly time to end affirmative action for the sons and daughters of the entitled classes.
16
Oh come now. Don't rock the yacht!
It was not that long ago that Harvard discriminated against high achieving Jewish applicants with quotas. Equality before the law should be the law of the land.
7
"Asia" has 60% of the world's population. Jews constitute less than 0.2%. I would not like to see 60% of our colleges Asian, and 0.2% Jewish. So, affirmative action taken to its natural end is absurd.
1
At one point in the mid 1800's the sons of Irish Catholic families in the Boston area were not accepted at Harvard resulting in the establishment by the Jesuit community of Boston College. Both now compete for high achieving applicants.
1
Can we perhaps be taking a closer look at class and economic circumstances rather than race alone? Let's focus on that instead.
18
It says a lot about the NYT's attitude towards this issue that with all the articles their publication has devoted over the years to elite college admissions (a subject of great interest to its target market of malleable aspirational strivers) never was an investigation or article on the subject of admissions discrimination against East Asians (mostly Chinese and Koreans) and Indians published. I and I'm sure many other wrote to the NYT and questioned why given the plethora of articles on the subject directly dealing with race and admissions this discimination was never addressed in detail. The rare times even the possibility of this was discussed it was either breezily dismissed or judged unimportant. Those decades of silence are all you need to know about the NYT's editorial position and preferred narrative on this subject.
21
What about these, found with one quick search of the Times' site?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/opinion/white-students-unfair-advanta...
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair-to-asian-am...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-their-own...
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/03/education/why-asians-are-going-head-cl...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/opinion/white-students-unfair-advanta...
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair-to-asian-am...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-their-own...
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/03/education/why-asians-are-going-head-cl...
Affirmative action is a policy that makes decisions based on a person's race -- how is that not the very definition of racism? Why is there such hypocrisy about this obvious fact? Some types of racism are unacceptable but other types of racism are good?
We should be focusing our efforts on making sure every child has equal opportunities -- not chopping down high-achievers in order to create equal results.
Claims that Asian American students should just shut up already because they "got into Duke" and how could they have the nerve expect anything more (say, fairness!); because they failed to meet the oblique and mysterious criteria of "writing a good essay" or of "being well-rounded"; because Harvard wants to promote a certain kind of "culture" on campus carry the unmistakable odor of racism.
Harvard may be a private institution but it nonetheless receives a lot of federal money. I do not want my tax dollars going toward a system that supports racial discrimination and penalizes hard work and achievement. Why do we act as though only black and Latino students can experience injustice? Discrimination against Asian Americans still counts as discrimination.
We should be focusing our efforts on making sure every child has equal opportunities -- not chopping down high-achievers in order to create equal results.
Claims that Asian American students should just shut up already because they "got into Duke" and how could they have the nerve expect anything more (say, fairness!); because they failed to meet the oblique and mysterious criteria of "writing a good essay" or of "being well-rounded"; because Harvard wants to promote a certain kind of "culture" on campus carry the unmistakable odor of racism.
Harvard may be a private institution but it nonetheless receives a lot of federal money. I do not want my tax dollars going toward a system that supports racial discrimination and penalizes hard work and achievement. Why do we act as though only black and Latino students can experience injustice? Discrimination against Asian Americans still counts as discrimination.
28
College Affirmative Action has always been about denying qualified applicants and favoring less-qualified applicants. Honest applicants want to be accepted because they worked hard and earned the right to get accepted; dishonest applicants want to get in without doing the work or earning the reward. Affirmative action punishes the honest and rewards the dishonest.
6
One the one hand, per trump's anti-affirmative action plan, blue-collar whites don't value education. Isn't that what the data show? So, I suspect not many of them are applying to Harvard, let alone the University of West Virginia. On the other hand, it's interesting that Asian students are going after black and brown students when mediocre rich white frat boys clog every college campus from sea to shining sea.
OK, black people, let's set these racists straight. Raise your hand if you worked hard during college; held down a job or two (or three in my case); dealt with the blatant, aggressive racism from the white and Asian quarter about your right to be educated in their presence; graduated; pay taxes; pay or paid student loans; work harder and longer than your colleagues at your career; and still deal with on-the-job microaggressions? That would be most of us.
OK, black people, let's set these racists straight. Raise your hand if you worked hard during college; held down a job or two (or three in my case); dealt with the blatant, aggressive racism from the white and Asian quarter about your right to be educated in their presence; graduated; pay taxes; pay or paid student loans; work harder and longer than your colleagues at your career; and still deal with on-the-job microaggressions? That would be most of us.
6
What's wrong with attending Duke University? Mr Jia should be happy to be there. While I can sympathize with Mr Jia's disappointment and sense of betrayal at the discrimination he encountered in the Ivy League, the other side is his excessive commitment to an Ivy League institution as if that Ivy connection was the exclusive key to a successful, productive, and happy life. This is is an illusion that needs popping. Thank heavens, an Ivy degree simply isn't the only ticket. Yes, the process wasn't fair, but the results are plenty good enough. Just get on with your life, Mr. Jia.
3
I find it funny that commentators here are taking for granted that this kid is not "well-rounded people" or "lacked passion about anything" or has some Tiger mom behind them... just because they are Asians.
How do you know this, unless you are racially stereotyping?
It smells to me, that it's mainly jealousy because they are smarter and working harder than your kids. As a musician, I see this stereotyping of Asians again and again. "They have no imagination", "just fast fingers" blablabla. It's simply untrue. Get to know Asian students and they are just as profound, imaginative and passionate about music as anyone else. The "problem" is they are no loudmouths. Action, not words is implemented in the Asian culture. So, why sit in an interview telling how great you are when you can actually show it. Does not make sense. Other kids can be very different... Why actually do it when you can talk about how great you are instead?
How do you know this, unless you are racially stereotyping?
It smells to me, that it's mainly jealousy because they are smarter and working harder than your kids. As a musician, I see this stereotyping of Asians again and again. "They have no imagination", "just fast fingers" blablabla. It's simply untrue. Get to know Asian students and they are just as profound, imaginative and passionate about music as anyone else. The "problem" is they are no loudmouths. Action, not words is implemented in the Asian culture. So, why sit in an interview telling how great you are when you can actually show it. Does not make sense. Other kids can be very different... Why actually do it when you can talk about how great you are instead?
19
Look, some [Asians, any students] are and some aren't as profound, imaginative and passionate about music as anyone else. Some can discuss how to approach a given piece of music for emotional content, how they tackle a new piece, how their feelings about it mutate as they practice it. Others play the violin - 3 hours a day, mind you - because mom makes them do it. Telling an interviewer that "mom makes you" is a red flag. Why do I see more Asian students like this? I see more Asian students. They make up 60% of the world's population.
You are absolutely right. The casual racism in all these comments show exactly why Asians need to be protected from discrimination.
1
I was a sophomore at UC Berkeley in 1973 when I applied to for admission to its School of Criminology. My application was rejected. I went to speak with one of the School's deans and was told, bluntly, that my GPA wasn't high enough for a white male. I asked about my odds of getting into grad school later. The dean said that, again for a white male, I would need a miraculous GRE and at least a 3.9 GPA (which would have made me Phi Beta Kappa).
I was disappointed. I was a bit angry. But, I accepted this situation as an unavoidable consequence of affirmative action, of ensuring that a school's population is diverse. The School wasn't selecting someone over me because of his or her race. The problem -- for me -- was that the population of white male applicants was larger, so, statistically, there likely would be more applicants with better GRE scores and higher GPAs.
(Incidentally, I eventually did get admitted. The university decided to close the School of Criminology because its emphasis had shifted from forensics to sociology, with a decidedly leftist tilt. The School responded by chosing to admit anyone and everyone who had previously applied and could complete the course requirements before the closure took effect.)
I was disappointed. I was a bit angry. But, I accepted this situation as an unavoidable consequence of affirmative action, of ensuring that a school's population is diverse. The School wasn't selecting someone over me because of his or her race. The problem -- for me -- was that the population of white male applicants was larger, so, statistically, there likely would be more applicants with better GRE scores and higher GPAs.
(Incidentally, I eventually did get admitted. The university decided to close the School of Criminology because its emphasis had shifted from forensics to sociology, with a decidedly leftist tilt. The School responded by chosing to admit anyone and everyone who had previously applied and could complete the course requirements before the closure took effect.)
1
Asians are a diverse group of parents with diverse parenting practices. The statement by Barbara from New Jersey that Asians make their kids do Kumon is too broad to be accurate. It would be like stating that women named Barbara from New Jersey prioritize drinking Chardonnay and yoga over paying attention to their kids' grades. Barbara needs to meet more Asians before she makes these generalizations.
18
I've met a few slacker Asian moms, slacker in the sense that they don't make their kids do anything in particular. But I've met way more Asian and Indian parents who don't let kids play video games and do encourage their kids to take up a sport and a musical instrument and a club than I've met slackers.
The whole US university admissions system needs a radical overhaul, full stop. 'Extra curriculars' are a totally unnecessary element of the process, and greatly favour students from wealthier, more well-connected, backgrounds. How fast you run, how tall you are, or how well you can kick or throw a ball should never have any impact on your ability to get admitted into an institution of higher education. Standardised tests grades and university-specific tests for elite schools should be more than sufficient.
This is basically the system we have in the UK, and just look at what we are able to accomplish with a tiny fraction of the amount money US schools have access to. Pound for pound I would say the UK system is the best in the world. Our students are more independent, they are required to do more intellectually challenging work, our professors actually teach undergraduates, we produce world-leading research in just about any field you care to mention, and we do all of this in a system that is poorer and (from a student perspective) shorter than the system in North America.
Americans need to take a big step back and genuinely ask themselves: what are universities for? What is their purpose? It seems like the nation is fundamentally confused, and divided, on these utterly basic questions.
This is basically the system we have in the UK, and just look at what we are able to accomplish with a tiny fraction of the amount money US schools have access to. Pound for pound I would say the UK system is the best in the world. Our students are more independent, they are required to do more intellectually challenging work, our professors actually teach undergraduates, we produce world-leading research in just about any field you care to mention, and we do all of this in a system that is poorer and (from a student perspective) shorter than the system in North America.
Americans need to take a big step back and genuinely ask themselves: what are universities for? What is their purpose? It seems like the nation is fundamentally confused, and divided, on these utterly basic questions.
292
My daughter attended MIT with a semester at St Andrews. I don't think you've got a lot to brag about, frankly. Theoretical computer science can't beat the real thing.
4
Although I agree the system is better at educating students in general, it's also more elitist. Aside from some improvements in the 1990s and 2000s your university system selects and sorts according to parental income and perpetuates income inequality/elitism. In addition, our tests for college are horrible measures of ability, unlike yours. They correlate 100% to parental income. Our system is highly unequal and that is why affirmative action is a necessary component of the process. The notion of quotas is also false. It's NOT how the admission process works.
2
As a public teacher for the last nineteen years, I do agree that we need to reflect on the infrastructure of the college admissions process, however your emphasis on standardized testing for "elite" schools (or other wise for that matter) is fundamentally skewed and only exacerbates the pressure we are putting students in the corporate schema of education (while expunging the desire to cultivate a well-balanced, autonomous, and critically reflective student) .
Making a statement about any system that is the "best in the world" is pedantic and ignores the cultural and contextual elements of the educational landscape (Check out the Finnish system for example, before you quote the "best").
The more basic question here is timeless: "what is the purpose of education?" Krausewitz: EVERYONE is confused here.
Making a statement about any system that is the "best in the world" is pedantic and ignores the cultural and contextual elements of the educational landscape (Check out the Finnish system for example, before you quote the "best").
The more basic question here is timeless: "what is the purpose of education?" Krausewitz: EVERYONE is confused here.
4
The Boston Orchestra conducted blind auditions to remove bias. the result: more than 50% of candidates making it past the initial round were women. College is about diversity of ideas, not race of skin tone. Perhaps a blind interview process after minimal requirements are set may be a solution. Critical thinking and processing the abstract may be factors that are considered in admissions. Attaching race to diversity of ideas is antiquated and playing into identity politics.
79
A good idea but the interviewers and committees that have the digital application have other clues to ethnicity. I am concerned that elite universities admitting minorities are admitting students not representative of a minority, in that they are of color but still from affluent or advantaged backgrounds. Minorities that are poor may do poorly by comparison on tests but be very very bright. I would prefer Switzerland's education system to ours.
That would be fascinating, a blind interview process. I can see how it would work for a musical audition, not so easily when you are talking with someone. Hard to disguise some aspects of the voice, but I'd be interested in seeing how that comes out.
The reaction of some of the commenters here belies the cultural tensions in American society.
"He's going to Duke and complaining? Maybe his parents should tell him to go make some friends instead of doing Kumon all day. Who would want to go to a Chinese university, they turn out smart drones with no creativity."
You can recognize the achievement and hard work of students like this, while still having a view that diversity in-and-of-itself is a value in a student body. A major part of attending a school like Harvard is being exposed to people who are very different, coming from all points on the socioeconomic (and global) spectrum.
Many of the supporters of the suit are looking to apply pressure on affirmative action by pitting Asian-Americans against other minorities. But due to numbers, the applicants who would lose the most slots would likely be white. That uncomfortable reality is one of the things I see in these comments. "These Asian kids should be lucky we let him go to Duke. Sure, he has grades, but he's got no social skills. He has no creativity."
To the students at Harvard, I would suggest, go meet people who are very different from you. To some of the commenters, I would suggest, go see the world. Go visit China. One of the things you will see, which may surprise you, is that China is taking a policy stance to challenge US hegemony in technology, especially artificial intelligence. But don't worry, they are just nerds with no creativity.
"He's going to Duke and complaining? Maybe his parents should tell him to go make some friends instead of doing Kumon all day. Who would want to go to a Chinese university, they turn out smart drones with no creativity."
You can recognize the achievement and hard work of students like this, while still having a view that diversity in-and-of-itself is a value in a student body. A major part of attending a school like Harvard is being exposed to people who are very different, coming from all points on the socioeconomic (and global) spectrum.
Many of the supporters of the suit are looking to apply pressure on affirmative action by pitting Asian-Americans against other minorities. But due to numbers, the applicants who would lose the most slots would likely be white. That uncomfortable reality is one of the things I see in these comments. "These Asian kids should be lucky we let him go to Duke. Sure, he has grades, but he's got no social skills. He has no creativity."
To the students at Harvard, I would suggest, go meet people who are very different from you. To some of the commenters, I would suggest, go see the world. Go visit China. One of the things you will see, which may surprise you, is that China is taking a policy stance to challenge US hegemony in technology, especially artificial intelligence. But don't worry, they are just nerds with no creativity.
6
I believe that many (most?) colleges now practice affirmative action for men. Because women are better students and overall get the higher grades.
But do we really want colleges that are 60% or more female undergraduates?
Much as we still need affirmative action for historically disadvantaged groups (including women), I also support affirmative action now for men in college admissions. And yes - including white men who are economically disadvantaged.
What we really want is an educated population that reflects not just the applicant pool but our society.
Meritocracy sounds ikea a great idea until you discover that there is no such thing. There is talent and there is hard work. But equality of opportunity for all is a dream and likely to remain elusive.
But do we really want colleges that are 60% or more female undergraduates?
Much as we still need affirmative action for historically disadvantaged groups (including women), I also support affirmative action now for men in college admissions. And yes - including white men who are economically disadvantaged.
What we really want is an educated population that reflects not just the applicant pool but our society.
Meritocracy sounds ikea a great idea until you discover that there is no such thing. There is talent and there is hard work. But equality of opportunity for all is a dream and likely to remain elusive.
8
do you notice that the colleges that have D-1 football have more balanced male/female ratios? same for ones with big Greek systems? Men and women are different-and schools that understand this will prosper.
I do not appreciate being used as a political pawn by conservatives, who would put us all back on a boat to China, if they could (never mind that many of us are not Chinese).
9
Perhaps their are conservative Asians? When I went to Berkeley I was ~40 years older than my classmates, so a few of the parents gravitated to me, probably assuming I was a parent/grandparent. I didn't notice any distinctly liberal attitudes from the Asian parents, which were quite obvious coming from ~90% of the White parents. Allowing for the high likelihood of cross-cultural misunderstanding, I expect some portion of Asians to hold generally conservative, if not Republican/Conservative, beliefs.
Many of the comments here fall into the same two stereotypes that try to subhumanize Americans of Asian descent. First, commentators automatic assumption that just because the child has an Asian surname, they must be a foreigner. They try to weasel out that there are a few Asian Americans out there, but this general assumption that if you're Asian descent, you're foreign, automatically places Americans of Asian descent as second class citizens in their eyes that some how must prove their loyalty versus someone who might be proud of their Irish or Polish descent.
Also, it's degrading to see people constantly fall back into the model minority stereotype: they're automatons, they lack creativity, they lack the ability to resist or argue, they lack social lives and friends. Clearly these commentators are ignorant about Asian cultures to begin with which have very long histories to today of creativity, both violent and peaceful protest, deep intellectual traditions, and whatnot. As for letting kids out to play, maybe this is just a reflection of broader American society where the college bound children of all races are being forced down a highly regimented route, but because they're not the same race, it's easier to point fingers.
Also, it's degrading to see people constantly fall back into the model minority stereotype: they're automatons, they lack creativity, they lack the ability to resist or argue, they lack social lives and friends. Clearly these commentators are ignorant about Asian cultures to begin with which have very long histories to today of creativity, both violent and peaceful protest, deep intellectual traditions, and whatnot. As for letting kids out to play, maybe this is just a reflection of broader American society where the college bound children of all races are being forced down a highly regimented route, but because they're not the same race, it's easier to point fingers.
14
I'm Asian-American and attended a so-called elite college. The thing that bothers me the most about Asian-Americans being compelled to throw other racial minorities under the bus is that, in my experience, Asian-American admissions are probably not suffering due to black or Hispanic students. My college was about 40% students of color; coincidentally, about 40% of students attended without any financial aid (so their families could afford a 65k annual tuition without being put into financial duress). Overlap between those groups was not very high. Just thinking about the US's demographics -- isn't that an absurdly high concentration of predominantly white students from top 5% income earning families? Doesn't it seem more likely that those are the students "crowding out" high-performing Asian-Americans?
Also, I happened to sit on my college's admissions committee for a year and was told that legacy status matters "about as much" as racial diversity when it comes to admissions.
So with that in mind, I conclude that either (A) Mr. Jia is deluded into thinking a conservative non-profit is really helping Asian-Americans at large, when it seems more likely to me that Mr. Blum is looking out for the Abigail Fishers, not the Asian-Americans, or (2) he's willing to throw not only other minorities but also Asian-Americans under a bus, for his own perceived gain.
I can't say I respect either of those options, and I hope other Asian-Americans will disavow themselves of his position.
Also, I happened to sit on my college's admissions committee for a year and was told that legacy status matters "about as much" as racial diversity when it comes to admissions.
So with that in mind, I conclude that either (A) Mr. Jia is deluded into thinking a conservative non-profit is really helping Asian-Americans at large, when it seems more likely to me that Mr. Blum is looking out for the Abigail Fishers, not the Asian-Americans, or (2) he's willing to throw not only other minorities but also Asian-Americans under a bus, for his own perceived gain.
I can't say I respect either of those options, and I hope other Asian-Americans will disavow themselves of his position.
15
So you are fine with white people being thrown under the bus though? I mean, do we have to throw one race under the bus? Why not throw rich people of all races under the bus? I mean, if affirmative action helpped poor people, wouldnt people who actually need help get help?
Does a multimillionaire Black girl experience life differently than a poor Black girl? Do poor white people ever get considered, or are all whites assumed to be in the top 5%?
Here is the kicker, can money buy opportunity? The answer to that is yes.
Asians shouldnt disavow this position. If you have to score 430 points higher on the SAT to get in just because of race, isnt that too much!?
Also, legacy only matters if your parents donate to the University. My Dad went to Dartmouth and he never donated a dime. When it came time for me to apply I got rejected even though I had the qualifications to get into and attend MIT. One would think that if legacy mattered as much as you say, then I would have been to shoe-in at Dartmouth.
Does a multimillionaire Black girl experience life differently than a poor Black girl? Do poor white people ever get considered, or are all whites assumed to be in the top 5%?
Here is the kicker, can money buy opportunity? The answer to that is yes.
Asians shouldnt disavow this position. If you have to score 430 points higher on the SAT to get in just because of race, isnt that too much!?
Also, legacy only matters if your parents donate to the University. My Dad went to Dartmouth and he never donated a dime. When it came time for me to apply I got rejected even though I had the qualifications to get into and attend MIT. One would think that if legacy mattered as much as you say, then I would have been to shoe-in at Dartmouth.
1
This is the kind of nonsense the education when viewed solely as a means to wealth generates.
2
It's curious that it is conventional wisdom today that diversity of races (as opposed to diversity of thought or viewpoint) provides some mythical educational benefit. Today, the U.S. is lagging and being surpassed by China. How much racial diversity does China have in its schools? Probably almost none. Perhaps today's conventional wisdom is merely a cover for liberal guilt at prior transgressions against minorities. It's an excuse. A fraud. That's not a good enough justification for blatant racial discrimination, which is what affirmative action is.
9
A key part of a student's college application is the personal essay, so it would be interesting to see wht Mr Jia sent to his Ivy League choices. Having spectacular grades, test scores, extra curricular activities and recommendations is not enough; there are 25 other equally capable students for each available spot at a top school.
4
The amount of comments encouraging or condoning the flawed "model minority" ideology is disturbing. The stereotyped assumption that Asian Americans all come from successful or a somehow advantaged background, free of socio-economic restraints, contributes to a racial bias that seeks to void and overlook the struggle that many Asian-Americans face as a minority group living in the United States.
When admissions offices look at a curriculum vitae of an Asian-American student, just as much objective thought should be given to their background as to any other student who applies regardless of ethnicity or some preconceived notion of what their ethnicity implies.
When admissions offices look at a curriculum vitae of an Asian-American student, just as much objective thought should be given to their background as to any other student who applies regardless of ethnicity or some preconceived notion of what their ethnicity implies.
3
I'm an Korean-American who recently graduated from a Ivy league caliber school, and four years ago I was also rejected by a number of the schools that I applied to. However, I don't begrudge the Affirmative Action program for those rejections. The truth of the matter is that many of my classmates of East Asian descent, including myself, come from privileged backgrounds - parents are doctors, lawyers, professors, company execs, etc - and expensive private schools. We certainly aren't under-represented. There's also the fact that most Asian-Americans applying to Ivy league schools are first/second/third generation immigrants, and we don't have the history of discrimination that African Americans and Native Americans have had to suffer. There might be need for a re-evaluation of Affirmative Action to become more inclusive, but I don't believe it warrants a lawsuit. There's enough racial tension in this country, we don't need minorities turning against each other.
640
This is dangerous and flawed thinking. Certainly the asian demographic has done well, but if we are to believe America is a fair, merit based society, just doing well does not erase injustice. Asians should not be simply happy with their lot, putting up with unjust barriers because they have success. The problem is programs based on race, such as affirmative action, by construction pit races against each other. This inherent contradiction Bucketing by a race blind factor, such as socioeconomic status, is a far fairer and logical way to bring diversity. I agree, infighting between racial minorities is not constructive. But affirmative action does not help this.
2
Wow. Uhmm... The reason most of your fellow East Asian students are 1st 2nd and 3rd generation is your ancestors were forbidden by law from entering the US and or becoming US citizens and Chinese women were barred from entry to make sure no children would be born here. So no you do have history of discrimination. It's simply ignored, glossed over or not taught in most US school.s Your ancestors were subjected to a very very harsh form of discrimination from the US and in the US. Those Chinese that tried to remain in the US after the gold rush were subjected to discriminatory laws, pogromsdriving them out of communities and lynchings. (In fact the worst lynching in the US as far as number killed was a lyncihing wherein 17 Chinese were killed.) Then there was the China Exclusion Act barring Chinese from entering the US and that was enacted at a time when there was serious debate about deporting recently freed Blacks to Africa. In the end they decided once again they'd rather not have to compete with the Chinese. Those who are unaware of this need to educate yourself on the history of Chinese and East Asians in the US.
4
disagree CJA - it does warrant a lawsuit - as giving admission to "minorities" because of their color and family economics makes no sense what so ever. Being poor does not limit a child's ability to learn or desire to do well and achieve in school. That is insulting to those who achieve in spite of their having been reared in poorer families, or families that did not value educating their children.
1
I get where Asian Americans are coming from, and I do feel bad for this student that clearly put in the work to get to where he is.
Let us not, for one second, think that he won't be successful in life. Harvard or not, he will go places and his hard work WILL be rewarded. Attention should be shifted elsewhere.
To put this into perspective (and I will use population percentages from 2011), we all have to understand where minorities fall in top schools proportionally to the population. This article listed that ~30% of top schools are made up of Asian Americans. How many Asian Americans are there in the US? Around 5%, yet they have over 5x the representation in these schools.
How about black people? They make up around 13.1% of the US population, but do they have 30% representation at top universities? No. No they don't.
And what saddens me the most, Latino people. (I say Latino people very specifically, Hispanics include a large portion of white people). Latino people make up 16.7% of the US population, and they are even less represented at the top universities. They are the largest group of marginalized people, yet we see them the least at the top schools.
I am sorry, but while I sympathize for my Asian American brothers and sisters, they are more advantaged/privileged than people of color. Asian Americans will be FINE. I shift my focus to the people that require attention and visibility the most, and that is black & brown people.
Let us not, for one second, think that he won't be successful in life. Harvard or not, he will go places and his hard work WILL be rewarded. Attention should be shifted elsewhere.
To put this into perspective (and I will use population percentages from 2011), we all have to understand where minorities fall in top schools proportionally to the population. This article listed that ~30% of top schools are made up of Asian Americans. How many Asian Americans are there in the US? Around 5%, yet they have over 5x the representation in these schools.
How about black people? They make up around 13.1% of the US population, but do they have 30% representation at top universities? No. No they don't.
And what saddens me the most, Latino people. (I say Latino people very specifically, Hispanics include a large portion of white people). Latino people make up 16.7% of the US population, and they are even less represented at the top universities. They are the largest group of marginalized people, yet we see them the least at the top schools.
I am sorry, but while I sympathize for my Asian American brothers and sisters, they are more advantaged/privileged than people of color. Asian Americans will be FINE. I shift my focus to the people that require attention and visibility the most, and that is black & brown people.
6
Unfortunately, this comment ignores some of the great diversity among Asian Americans, who are not all doctors and engineers as many people assume. In New York City, Asians have a higher rate of poverty than any other group. Asian Americans are underrepresented among CEOs of companies and elected officials. Most Asian students at US colleges come from a certain subset of Asian Americans, but *all* Asian students are discriminated against in the admissions process.
2
Thank you for the reply.
You can't cherry pick one city to highlight marginalized Asian Americans. (Also a quick google search turned up two sources that say Latino people have a higher rate of poverty in NYC than Asian Americans.)
Regardless. All Asian students are discriminated against in the admissions process? Well it must be nice that they even get to the admission process in the first place. Black and Latino people struggle to have even have access to proper primary or secondary schools.
You want to talk about a lack of Asian American CEOs? How about a lack of black or latino people in the c-suite in general? Don't even get me started on elected officials, especially in Congress.
The fact is, at all the top schools, you will see a considerable amount of Asian students, with proportions that significantly exceed the Asian population percentage of people in the US. Black and Latino people combined make up close to 30% of this country...but we don't see 30% of top schools be composed of Black and Latino people. But we do see ~30% of top schools have Asian students!
I think its clear what group deserves more attention and visibility here.
You can't cherry pick one city to highlight marginalized Asian Americans. (Also a quick google search turned up two sources that say Latino people have a higher rate of poverty in NYC than Asian Americans.)
Regardless. All Asian students are discriminated against in the admissions process? Well it must be nice that they even get to the admission process in the first place. Black and Latino people struggle to have even have access to proper primary or secondary schools.
You want to talk about a lack of Asian American CEOs? How about a lack of black or latino people in the c-suite in general? Don't even get me started on elected officials, especially in Congress.
The fact is, at all the top schools, you will see a considerable amount of Asian students, with proportions that significantly exceed the Asian population percentage of people in the US. Black and Latino people combined make up close to 30% of this country...but we don't see 30% of top schools be composed of Black and Latino people. But we do see ~30% of top schools have Asian students!
I think its clear what group deserves more attention and visibility here.
Are Asian Americans not people of color? Im not trying to be snarky actually, Ive wondered. The wikipedia says a person of color is someone who isnt white, but Ive always interpreted people of color as people who have African heritage. Im not sure which is the more common usage.
1
The issue with loosely defined parameters in admission process is that they are as effervescent as a smoke in thin air. Their interpretation changes with the personalities engaged in the process. For example, a soft spoken person could be deemed pleasant or less trustworthy depending on the setting. An education system like any other noble profession thrives on objectivity. Making the admission process score based, transparent and free of subjectivity is essential for the reputed university like Harvard. I think life anyways offers many challenges and university should avoid taking part in tipping the balance prematurely to help those who are less-deserving.
1
I'd just compare the two Asian-American applicants in this piece and articulate why Emily made it into Harvard and Austin didn't. This analysis is based on the information presented, so I admit there may be more going on than I know.
Both are excellent students academically-- near perfect standardized test scores, extremely high GPAs. That being said, Austin "played tennis" and "participated in debate club." In contrast, Emily was "editor of the newspaper, president of the Latin Club, and vice-president of the student council." Austin participated, Emily led. Schools like Harvard look for leaders-- not just kids whose parents can pay for them to "participate" in expensive extracurriculars like tennis. It's little things like this that make the difference between two high-achieving students.
Both are excellent students academically-- near perfect standardized test scores, extremely high GPAs. That being said, Austin "played tennis" and "participated in debate club." In contrast, Emily was "editor of the newspaper, president of the Latin Club, and vice-president of the student council." Austin participated, Emily led. Schools like Harvard look for leaders-- not just kids whose parents can pay for them to "participate" in expensive extracurriculars like tennis. It's little things like this that make the difference between two high-achieving students.
6
my point exactly-Harvard is looking for future leaders of the country. I would take it a step further if you are an Asian kid-do something non-stereotypical like play (even captain) the football or basketball team! Didn't hurt Jeremy Lin's chances of getting into Harvard-didn't it (now the D1 college programs discriminating against him despite a stellar HS record, a state championship, and being located across the street from Stanford with qualifying academics-that's another case of blatant racial discrimination)
Wrong target.
This isn't about Affirmative Action.
This is about quota system that only exists for colored people.
As an Asian, I have no problem with Affirmative Action, which is a fine program that will help historically disenfranchised people. Do not underestimate what hundreds of years of disenfranchisement can do to an entire populace. It's soul crushing inculcating them with "learned helplessness," a proven psychological phenomenon.
But I do have problem with legacy program, (seriously why do we have this? I thought America was all about merit. Even Britain got rid of it awhile ago), and covert quota system on colored people, which doesn't exist for white ethnicity.
It is widely known about Asian people's fervent academic pursuit. And they don't neglect extracurricular activities either. But look at the racial composition of any prestigious school's admission. Does it really reflect the racial composition of high achievers? As far as I know, Asians are always underrepresented. Case in point: Look at Stuyvesant and Look at Harvard's racial composition. The disparity is stark. Asian kids know that there is certain tacit quota for Asians. In the end, Asian kids are competing against other Asians.
So this is all about targeting the most vulnerable targets again instead of actually focusing on the larger problem. Get rid of legacy program. Get rid of quota system for Asians if you won't have such system for Whites. This is 21st century for God's sake.
This isn't about Affirmative Action.
This is about quota system that only exists for colored people.
As an Asian, I have no problem with Affirmative Action, which is a fine program that will help historically disenfranchised people. Do not underestimate what hundreds of years of disenfranchisement can do to an entire populace. It's soul crushing inculcating them with "learned helplessness," a proven psychological phenomenon.
But I do have problem with legacy program, (seriously why do we have this? I thought America was all about merit. Even Britain got rid of it awhile ago), and covert quota system on colored people, which doesn't exist for white ethnicity.
It is widely known about Asian people's fervent academic pursuit. And they don't neglect extracurricular activities either. But look at the racial composition of any prestigious school's admission. Does it really reflect the racial composition of high achievers? As far as I know, Asians are always underrepresented. Case in point: Look at Stuyvesant and Look at Harvard's racial composition. The disparity is stark. Asian kids know that there is certain tacit quota for Asians. In the end, Asian kids are competing against other Asians.
So this is all about targeting the most vulnerable targets again instead of actually focusing on the larger problem. Get rid of legacy program. Get rid of quota system for Asians if you won't have such system for Whites. This is 21st century for God's sake.
5
Make no mistake - if Mr. Jia were another minority, "under-represented", he would have had his selection of any Ivy institution. I don't know if this is right, if it is fair, or what the solution is. But it is true, and it certainly warrants some sort of investigation.
31
There is more diversity in kids labelled Asian than there is in America as a whole. Asia includes 1.3+ billion chinese, 1.2+ billion indians, and almost a billion+ of scores of other nationalities combined. India and China have further numerous sub-nationalities. You can image the diversity in their descendants. Yet this stereotype of a bookworm asian kid is spread relentlessly primarily by white parents. Yes, there are introvert and nerdy asian kids, and there are extrovert organization starting asian kids. Affirmative action as practiced by Harvard and other Ivy's paints all asians with broad brush strokes and discriminates against them in favor of legacy, sports, black/hispanic candidates. While there is an argument for supporting blacks and hispanics, who are economically and socially disadvantaged, why do asians have to score 140 more SAT points than a similar white candidate. That is true discrimination.
6
A high percentage of the Asian students who attend UCLA, USC, and other
California universities are Chinese Nationals,whose parents are wealthy
gov and corporate officials., who pay a much higher enrollment fee. It's not
the GPA that matters, its the money.
California universities are Chinese Nationals,whose parents are wealthy
gov and corporate officials., who pay a much higher enrollment fee. It's not
the GPA that matters, its the money.
5
Particularly in public schools.
One huge and unexpected consequence if this suit is successful, would be that the elite universities would become overwhelmingly Asian with few whites; especially if whites are denied legacy admissions and more Asians from overseas are allowed to compete.
3
Yes. 60% of the world's population is Asian. Want 60% quotas? That's the basic flaw in "fair" admissions. We don't owe the rest of the world access to the US, to US colleges or anything else. Asian Americans already have much higher college admissions rates than their percent of the US population.
The popular notion is that upper middle class Asians are being discriminated against in favor of lower class African Americans but these African Americans are probably privileged as well. You can't blame Asians for playing the game better
7
This lawsuit demonstrates the problem with affirmative action. Unless we use an easily understood system, like GPA, SATs etc., then someone will be hurt by Affirmative Action. This is why we need to return to an easily understood system. Affirmative Action is not an easily understood system, since it inherently depends on some person or body's opinion of an applicant. I am glad to see the AG taking this problem on.
17
Ivy League admissions always depend on someone's opinion of someone. There are 15 kids with good enough GPA/SAT numbers for each spot. Your comment reflects very little knowledge of how the process works. Or of historic discrimination. Or the legacy system that this article omits entirely, but which means kids with alumni parents get admitted at four times the overall rate of acceptance. http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/5/11/admissions-fitzsimmons-legac...
5
I guess your kids won't be going Ivy League, then. My neighborhood is going Chinese because mainland Chinese know Boston as the creme de la creme of education. Harvard could fill their freshman class 6x over every year with perfect scores, so what do you want to be the tie breaker? Many kids who get perfect scores learn material well; THINKING originally is another matter. Diversity is good in university because the world is diverse. It's not 1950 anymore. Harvard is not a state supported school. They needn't tell you how they choose their applicants, although I can tell you how Jerod Kushner got in. He did it the old fashioned way— Daddy BOUGHT it!
The plaintiffs will likely be able to show that race/ethnicity is an inexact proxy for diversity. Should a student attending an elite private secondary school, with two Ivy league-educated parents, and residing in a leafy affluent suburb, be given a plus-factor in admissions based upon race/ethnicity alone? That is nonsense. On the other hand, should a student attending an inner city school, with a single parent receiving food stamps, be given a plus-factor in admissions for overcoming harsh circumstances, regardless of race/ethnicity? I believe that is a better proxy for diversity, which is a worthy goal.
42
The inner city kid has a tough time 1) knowing that these colleges are really open to them, 2) contemplating leaving home, 3) understanding how financial aid works 4) meeting exotic deadlines, and 5) overcoming family pressure not to become "full of themselves" or "better than they are". The leafy school Asian kid has even further advantages. They have math on Sundays taught by college professors, the best violin teachers doctor money can find, strong presence in robotics programs mentored by Asian engineers, and 60% of the world's population. There is a lot packed into this article.
It will be very hard to prove discrimination at a school like Harvard, which has a very holistic admissions process that includes essays, evaluation of extra-curriculars, etc. The young man mentioned in the article sounds very well-rounded so might have a better argument than the stereotypical "grinder" who has great grades and scores and might excel at an instrument but will likely spend four years locked in the library studying rather than enhancing the college experience for his/her peers. Discrimination is much easier to prove at state schools which use a more formulaic approach.
I went to school with and worked with people who clearly benefitted from affirmative action, as well as those who clearly benefitted from who daddy is. I found that in the case of affirmative action, those minority students/employees who clearly deserved their positions on their merits often resented those who had clearly gotten in due to affirmative action because it led others to question the merits of those who really deserved to be there. Similarly, many people resented those who were clearly only there due to family connections and wealth.
I went to school with and worked with people who clearly benefitted from affirmative action, as well as those who clearly benefitted from who daddy is. I found that in the case of affirmative action, those minority students/employees who clearly deserved their positions on their merits often resented those who had clearly gotten in due to affirmative action because it led others to question the merits of those who really deserved to be there. Similarly, many people resented those who were clearly only there due to family connections and wealth.
13
"Holistic" is always a code word for "tactics" designed to achieve a political objective.
Wait what? Yo I went to MIT and we always thought Harvard was a joke. We used to go their to pad our GPAs because it was such a joke.
Holistic? How the heck did Bush get admitted? Maybe its not as holistic as you think, especially when all those essays mean nothing when you can just present Harvard with a big check and your kids are good to go for starting the exclusionary cycle anew.
Harvard discriminates worse than anyone else because of the amount of applicants it has. I mean, like every kid is a validictorian. Basically Harvard has to discriminate in order to keep their class the right size. When you got 10,000 validictorians applying, you are going to end up choosing people for discriminatory reasons.
Holistic? How the heck did Bush get admitted? Maybe its not as holistic as you think, especially when all those essays mean nothing when you can just present Harvard with a big check and your kids are good to go for starting the exclusionary cycle anew.
Harvard discriminates worse than anyone else because of the amount of applicants it has. I mean, like every kid is a validictorian. Basically Harvard has to discriminate in order to keep their class the right size. When you got 10,000 validictorians applying, you are going to end up choosing people for discriminatory reasons.
2
There is a bit of a parallel here to the working class problem of thinking that immigrants are taking all the jobs. Immigrants are taking all the low skilled jobs because there aren't enough qualified "Americans" (white and ? black) to fill them, for various reasons, including believing the jobs are below them or they don't have the skills or can't pass the drug tests.
In the white collar educated college sphere, "Americans" (white) are concerned that too many immigrants (Asians) are getting into the top colleges at their expense, therefore they are limited by the powers that be. The sad truth is that just like the low skilled jobs, (white and black) Americans can't measure up to these immigrants when it comes to test scores, grades, or drive! That's what "Americans" should really be concerned with, and stop deluding themselves that it's all the immigrants fault. Look in the mirror, people!
In the white collar educated college sphere, "Americans" (white) are concerned that too many immigrants (Asians) are getting into the top colleges at their expense, therefore they are limited by the powers that be. The sad truth is that just like the low skilled jobs, (white and black) Americans can't measure up to these immigrants when it comes to test scores, grades, or drive! That's what "Americans" should really be concerned with, and stop deluding themselves that it's all the immigrants fault. Look in the mirror, people!
6
There are just not a lot of white people getting together finding white parents to teach white math on Sundays to white kids so that when they sign up for, say high school calculus, they'll have already seen the material before. White parents are not taking over their kids' robotics clubs or finding intense white violin teachers to make their white kids practice violin 3 hours per day. US white parents just count on white privilege to carry the day. That day is over.
1
Yesterday, the NYTimes prominently published a news article that "The U.S. Justice Department is planning to investigate and possibly sue universities over admissions policies that discriminate against white applicants". Subsequently, the MSM ran stories that the NYTimes article was inaccurate and the Trump administration flatly denied this as "Fake News", stating that the Justice Department was making staffing assignments to handle a lawsuit filed by Asian Americans that had languished in the Obama Justice Department. Today's article makes no mention of yesterday's article. Questions: Is the NYTimes retracting yesterday's article, and replacing it by this article that matches up with the statement made by the Trump spokesperson? Was yesterday's article "Fake News"? It would good to hear the perspective of the Public Editor on how this story evolved and did the NYTimes err in publishing yesterday's inaccurate article.
57
NY Times Public Editor was let go.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/public-editor/liz-spayd-final-public-...
Your comment is spot on. As is often the case The Times editorializes in the news section and tries to twist their own inferences and speculation in to facts that fit conveniently their own preferred narrative and their readership will go along with to shape public perception.
Is an editorial in the news section fakes news? When it twists the facts, yes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/public-editor/liz-spayd-final-public-...
Your comment is spot on. As is often the case The Times editorializes in the news section and tries to twist their own inferences and speculation in to facts that fit conveniently their own preferred narrative and their readership will go along with to shape public perception.
Is an editorial in the news section fakes news? When it twists the facts, yes.
3
^^^
Thank you for noticing!! You took the words right out of my mouth.
Thank you for noticing!! You took the words right out of my mouth.
1
*Asian-Americans in connection with Equal Opportunity appears to be a political question, one the Supreme Court may not determine, especially in light of national security interests. This is a matter for the Executive Branch or federal legislation.
Affirmative action has no place in college/university admissions. A student is either qualified or unqualified to be accepted into a college, race should have no bearing. Affirmative action was originally set up to help minority races such as blacks (but now more applies to Latinos) to get into college when admissions were much more discriminatory. Proponents argue that it increases diversity and gives a lot of poor students chances to go to college. I argue that if colleges want to help poor, high achieving students attend college, then they should just look at their socioeconomic status and how their family is doing financially. A student's race has nothing to do with the fact whether that student is poor or not. No one should be penalized for their race, and that includes Asian Americans.
51
I feel that if truly quality education were available to every high achieving student, then a Bachelors degree from Harvard would not be as coveted as it is now. I will say though that people that fall into this vague "Asian" check box are not the same. Families from different parts of Asia - Japan, China, Korea - are usually a lot better off and live in much nicer parts of the country than families from Vietnam, Cambodia, Nepal, etc. who tend to live in poorer areas where public education is not as good. Perhaps socio-economic status should be weighed more. Living in a wealthy suburb reminds us that non-Asians still put Asian people in one over-simplifying box; at the dinner table my brother was told by his white friends that he got into a university that they didn't "because he is Asian." No, he's an Eagle Scout and one of the best students in his grade. He didn't work harder than his friends because he's half Japanese. His success is due to his hard work and because of the amazing public schools we have access to. Access to great public schools for all children should be the big fight, not getting into Harvard.
17
I've said it once (but the NY Times didn't publish the comment) and I'll say it again: "John Roberts had it 100% correct when he said, 'The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.'" It's that simple. Affirmative action is wrong! It perpetuates a false narrative that some races are less capable than others and teaches minorities that they can't stand on their own two feet and compete. Getting rid of affirmative action will do more to strengthen race relations than we can possibly imagine.
50
As a white parent who is surrounded by Asians I applaud Harvard, not because I don't like Asians, but because I feel so bad for Asian children, from the age of 2 these children are groomed to be perfect in everything they touch. Many of them do not have childhood, no social skills and no imagination, it's time to tell Asian parents that with perfection your kids will not get far. We used to have an Asian neighbor who hit her daughter very harshly every day if she did not practice piano for 5 hours every day.
If Harvard will check only grades, Harvard will be an Asian college with no diversity.
If Harvard will check only grades, Harvard will be an Asian college with no diversity.
3
These stereotypes of Asian Americans show exactly the sort of prejudice they face, which is why Asian Americans, like other minorities, need to be protected from the sort of discrimination practiced by institutions like Harvard.
13
This is an urban legend which is relentlessly spread by white parents whose kids can't compete. Please read the article to get an idea about the type of Asian candidate rejected by Harvard in favor of lesser scoring kids with a different skin shade and facial feature set.
10
Lilly, perhaps you are "surrounded" by Asians, but you clearly don't know them very well. I also know many Asians who range between some of the most lax to some of the most strict parents. However, the most lax and the most strict parents are white parents. Your statements exhibit the racism that many Asians experience. If I said that I knew a white woman named Lilly who neglected her kids, would that mean that all white mothers named LIlly neglected their kids?
2
Asians complaining here should check their white privilege. Wait...
6
Claims against AA ignore the elephant in the room - preferential treatment for wealthy (typically white) individuals with sub-par academic records.
Why isn't Mr. Jia accusing Harvard of "discriminating against Asian-Americans in admissions by imposing a penalty for their high achievement and giving preference to" entitled, wealthy (typically white) applicants like Jared Kushner, despite their objectively poor academic treatment?
Why isn't Mr. Jia accusing Harvard of "discriminating against Asian-Americans in admissions by imposing a penalty for their high achievement and giving preference to" entitled, wealthy (typically white) applicants like Jared Kushner, despite their objectively poor academic treatment?
13
I agree with Larry P. regarding the preferential treatment given to wealthy applicants who can use their wealth and influence to be admitted irregardless of poor academic profiles as well as those applicants who are admitted because they are from poor, rural areas.
1
Yes! No more preferential treatment for the wealthy, legacies, and athletes (who have a whole separate admissions process of their own that takes place before the non-athletes even send in their applications).
LAF
LAF
When is meritocracy a conservative thing? When did hitting the books and getting good grades become an exercise in futility? Why isn't this called segregation (i.e., you can't go to this school because of your ethnicity and there are too many of your kind and we don't like it)?
42
Every year I debate interviewing for my alma mater. As one of the top schools in the US (world), I have Asian and White students with perfect scores, grades, and great personalities denied acceptance while other students who have significantly lower scores and grades (many share b/c I don't ask) who gain admission strictly based on race. I wish them well, but not sure we are doing these students any favors b/c they are not prepared - and summer programs and tutoring won't get them there. There are plenty of Hispanic and Black students who are stellar and will succeed and for the top schools, maybe they should be the focus of diversity. And don't get me started on athletes and the much lower admission standards they enjoy...
Many others I know have stopped bothering to interview at top b/c the process no longer seems to matter or make sense.
Many others I know have stopped bothering to interview at top b/c the process no longer seems to matter or make sense.
31
As a "privileged" white male who happens to be the adoptive grandfather of two Asian children, I could not applaud this lawsuit more.
Asian kids are, simply stated, the 21st Century of Jewish kids: picked on and discriminated against for their intellect and their "sameness," as one person put it to me. Jia is an almost identical case to my Korean business partner's son, who ranked first in his class at a top public high school with impressive sports and activities and was denied admission to the Ivies (he too ended up at Duke), while his lesser classmates who were not Korean had their pick of the Ivies with full scholarships to boot, even though their parents were wealthy.
If we must have affirmative action at all, it ought to be socioeconomic. I'd rather give a leg up to a poor child of any race over the child of a banker, CEO, or real estate mogul.
Asian kids are, simply stated, the 21st Century of Jewish kids: picked on and discriminated against for their intellect and their "sameness," as one person put it to me. Jia is an almost identical case to my Korean business partner's son, who ranked first in his class at a top public high school with impressive sports and activities and was denied admission to the Ivies (he too ended up at Duke), while his lesser classmates who were not Korean had their pick of the Ivies with full scholarships to boot, even though their parents were wealthy.
If we must have affirmative action at all, it ought to be socioeconomic. I'd rather give a leg up to a poor child of any race over the child of a banker, CEO, or real estate mogul.
308
Jews are approximately 2% of US population, whereas Asians are approximately 5.6%. How is discrimination against Asians at all similar to discrimination of Jews?
"The data, experts say, suggests that if Harvard were forbidden to use race as a factor in admissions, the Asian-American admissions rate would rise, and the percentage of white, black and Hispanic students would fall."
I wonder how many miss this statement in the article. Would whites be so against affirmative action knowing that getting rid of it doesn't add spots for them but removes some of their current spots for more Asian-Americans?
I wonder how many miss this statement in the article. Would whites be so against affirmative action knowing that getting rid of it doesn't add spots for them but removes some of their current spots for more Asian-Americans?
4
Yeah I would, and Im white as snow.
Id also support even more the idea of affirmative action based on socioeconomic status.
Id also support even more the idea of affirmative action based on socioeconomic status.
1
It's funny how affirmative action is constantly under review for attempting to correct the systemic imbalance perpetrated by racism, primarily towards blacks, but then the electoral college, designed to give extra weight to the voters in majority white states, is perfectly okay.
13
I do alumni interviews for an Ivy League university in my town which is largely Asian. My experience in interviewing kids for the last decade is this: high numbers do not mean a student is worthy of admission. I interviewed one young lady who had high SAT scores, one of the highest GPAs I had ever seen at the school, and the pre-requisite debate/music/robotics activities. She would start answering my basic questions and if she stuttered would start her rehearsed answer again. I realized she was looking at someone and her dad was sitting there coaching her. The kid lacked passion about anything. At college, she would have been the kid sitting in the dorm/library studying 24x7 and doing a parent approved activity.
The next student I interviewed had a .5 lower GPA and much lower SAT scores. But they had started a student organization and had grown it to other schools as well. Sitting with that student, I remember thinking "this kid is going to make a difference in our world".
Give me the kids who are going to make a difference in the world, regardless of mommy/daddy in the background driving them out of "love".
The next student I interviewed had a .5 lower GPA and much lower SAT scores. But they had started a student organization and had grown it to other schools as well. Sitting with that student, I remember thinking "this kid is going to make a difference in our world".
Give me the kids who are going to make a difference in the world, regardless of mommy/daddy in the background driving them out of "love".
739
Thank you for making this comment. It is a powerful message, and one that I hope more people get to understand.
3
This comment illustrates exactly how Ivy League discrimination against Asians works. The author of the comment, who does interviews for an Ivy League college, doesn't come outright and say it, but suggests that Asian students are "passionless" stutterers and only do well in school and other activities because their parents force them to. This comment shows exactly why Asian Americans need to be protected against this sort of discrimination.
69
Your comment demonstrates why interviews -- particularly alumni interviews, which should be eliminated ASAP -- are such an incredibly lame tool for admissions decisions. "The kid lacked passion about anything." How do you know?? It sounds to me as if she was quite nervous, and therefore one could not possibly gauge her "passion." The process favors extroverts over introverts at the expense of substance. An interview was not necessary to learn that the other kid had started an organization. Interviews have been used as a weapon against Asian-Americans for far too long.
69
Certainly, Mr. Jia won't exactly be an "underdog" with a degree from Duke, but that resume certainly seemed like a "door opener" for even a place as selective as Harvard.
On the other hand, the fact that he was rejected by other ivies Penn, Princeton and Columbia would suggest that Harvard's rejection was not uniquely arrived at.
Anecdotally, I am personally acquainted with a brilliant young Asian man who attends Yale and was accepted into Princeton but coincidentally was not offered admittance into Harvard.
That proves absolutely nothing, but it makes me wonder if there may not be "something" to this lawsuit.
In the grand scheme, however, I don't really know how up in arms I'm supposed to get about a situation like this.
Acceptances to all of these top tier ivy league schools is never going to be perfect, there are simply too few openings to accommodate too many qualified applicants. It's inevitable that human error and the institutional "culture" will impinge upon the selection process, resulting in some unjust decisions.
On the other hand, the fact that he was rejected by other ivies Penn, Princeton and Columbia would suggest that Harvard's rejection was not uniquely arrived at.
Anecdotally, I am personally acquainted with a brilliant young Asian man who attends Yale and was accepted into Princeton but coincidentally was not offered admittance into Harvard.
That proves absolutely nothing, but it makes me wonder if there may not be "something" to this lawsuit.
In the grand scheme, however, I don't really know how up in arms I'm supposed to get about a situation like this.
Acceptances to all of these top tier ivy league schools is never going to be perfect, there are simply too few openings to accommodate too many qualified applicants. It's inevitable that human error and the institutional "culture" will impinge upon the selection process, resulting in some unjust decisions.
2
I understand the perspective of the students who seem more qualified and are still rejected, but in the absence of a level playing field for K1-12 education, these concerns cannot override the parallel need for opportunity and integration of underrepresented populations. Obviously, this has to be done carefully and with balance, which is what the Supreme Court has said in previous decisions. Maybe in the future, when everyone gets similar opportunities and resources during early education, and there is no systemic racism detectable by statistical measures, then affirmative action will not be necessary. But, right now, do people really think that a student growing up in poverty and learning in low-functioning schools should be considered in exactly the same way as a student growing up in an affluent suburb?
4
Do away with the SAT. It measures a parent's willingness and ability to purchase extremely expensive test prep and demonstrates nothing more than a the student's the ability to take that single test.
2
Do away with the SAT, MCATs, GRE and so forth, which are meticulously crafted and validated tests and the selection process for colleges, and a variety of graduate schools becomes a hodg-podg of personal impressions and prejudices of interviewers with no reliability. I never took a test prep for the MCATS or the GRE which allowed for the discovery and quantification of ability at a time when medical school admission folks relied on organic chemistry grades as their criteria for intelligence and success in Medicine!!!
1
Mr. Jia ought to be thankful he doesn't have to put up with the winter weather in Boston.
3
The notion of the American "meritocracy" is a nice smoke screen for color blindness, because the reason we have Affirmative Action is the recognition that we all don't begin from the same starting line that would allow a meritocracy to be a truly fair standard.
This lawsuit is using a false-positive of discrimination against Asian-Americans to further a white driven idea that Affirmative Action is discriminatory against whites.
This lawsuit is using a false-positive of discrimination against Asian-Americans to further a white driven idea that Affirmative Action is discriminatory against whites.
4
How is the discrimination against Asians a false-positive? The evidence seems quite clear that this is a true-positive.
5
The solution is to completely change the way schools are funded so there are no rich and poor school districts. equalizing the resources that school districts have will go a long way towards reducing effect of privilege. Some of the "privilege" effect comes from home environment and is hard to mitigate against. However, if you improve the education at K-12, you do not have to rely on affirmative action to get a diverse student body.
3
Here in NJ, special state funding gives inner city schools as much, if not more, money per pupil than some of the most affluent suburban school districts. Yet in spite of this the inner city schools still have the lowest test scores and graduation rates in the state.
As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water (education) but you can not make it drink (learn) unless it wants to. As long as inner city students value sports and hip-hop music more than education no amount of money will
solve this problem.
As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water (education) but you can not make it drink (learn) unless it wants to. As long as inner city students value sports and hip-hop music more than education no amount of money will
solve this problem.
4
I'm doing some thinking on this issue. I've been a supporter of Affirmative Action all along. But I am wondering why the nos. of "Legacy Students" aren't also a part of this lawsuit. How many are accepted only because their parents graduated from their institution and have donated tons of money to that institution? Do they have the grades? Just wondering. And doing my math, the majority of students accepted to Harvard are white. Its obvious that not everybody can be accepted, but obviously grades should be a huge factor, certainly not the only one, but given a lot of weight when making a decision on admission.
3
Legacy admissions are not done with the intent to discriminate racially, while affirmative action programs are and do. I personally oppose affirmative action as abhorrent racial discrimination. I do not oppose legacy admissions as they merely show some loyalty to families who have supported an institution over time. Personally, if my alma-mater rejected my offspring, I would immediately cease donations, and they know that.
7
One possible solution would be to have a "lottery" of all qualified students. Probably 10,000 applicants are academically and otherwise capable of doing the work. Some may not have the highest SAT or ACT scores but as long as there is a reasonable chance that they can succeed put them in the "pool" for the lottery.
Give each qualified student a number and pull the 1,000 or 1,500 lucky individuals.
Is it perfect? Of course not, but it eliminates race and ethnicity. And let's face it. Life is a "lottery." If it were otherwise I could play tennis like Roger Federer.
Give each qualified student a number and pull the 1,000 or 1,500 lucky individuals.
Is it perfect? Of course not, but it eliminates race and ethnicity. And let's face it. Life is a "lottery." If it were otherwise I could play tennis like Roger Federer.
7
Finally, the NY Times, first, reports on this issue and secondly, does it accurately and not as a smear on Trump Admin policy.....geesh guys....'nuff of the 'fake news'
8
Asian Americans students are discriminated against to the benefit not only of other minority applicants, but all other applicants including whites.
11
Did California ruin it's public university system when it banned race based admissions preferences? In fact, it probably improved outcomes for black and Hispanic students who wound up at Davis instead of Berkeley and were no longer mismatched. Read "Mismatch", by Sander and Taylor.
17
Contrary to what some commentators and others think, Affirmative Action was not meant to encourage fairness. It was and is a recognition that some segments of our population because of previous discrimination could not get the support that would propel them to a successful future. it was an effort to remedy adverse circumstances, to provide an opportunity to educational and economic improvement. When these issues appear, there is a full cry about the need to observe strict meritocracy: "my grades are better than yours and therefore I should be admitted over you". No university can prosper under that system and it would be a boring place to be in. I have a strong suspicion that if a strict meritocracy were observed, Harvard would have a preponderant majority of Asian-Americans and Indian-Americans. And I am sure that the same people would complain about "the unbalance" in that policy. Every student has the right to an education but not the right to a particular university. in the case of Mr. Jia, I find it peevish that after being admitted to Duke, a university that is ranked number 8th among national university, he should complain that he was not admitted at Harvard. Is he looking for social standing or is he looking for an education?
111
Duke is not Harvard, in terms of education or career prospects. Even if it were, that you're telling an Asian American that he should be happy with his personal second choice to make room for more worth races is repugnant. Mr. Jia had nothing to do with previous racism and he shouldn't be punished for it. If you want to improve the prospects for disadvantaged racial minorities, discrimination is not the answer.
11
Good point, Frank. But as I said in my original post, it's not possible provide remedies to a segment of a population. Only individuals were harmed, and those individuals are the only ones that should be entitled to a remedy. Denying some different segments of our population support for a successful future today because other segments were denied in the past is just perpetuation of the same.
Frankly, especially given today's technology and the online application procedures, admissions could be nearly completely sanitized of irrelevant information. The application doesn't need a name, a gender, a sex, a hometown, address, or even a high school name. If high school matters, then they could easily be assigned a number, e.g., 5 for very rigorous, 1 for relatively easy. Essays may give some clues away, but it would be easy to counsel applicants not to divulge information that could be personally identifying.
The issue boils down to the manipulation of aggregate statistics. Some people dislike the aggregate statistics they have seen over the years, so they want to manipulate today's aggregate statistics so that they look more like how they feel they should look.
If schools used a strict meritocracy, those that complained about the "unbalance" could be dismissed out of hand, and 90% of the annual admissions anxiety would disappear. If Harvard turned out to be boring, as you said, many students would seek other opportunities and may be very happy at Duke.
Frankly, especially given today's technology and the online application procedures, admissions could be nearly completely sanitized of irrelevant information. The application doesn't need a name, a gender, a sex, a hometown, address, or even a high school name. If high school matters, then they could easily be assigned a number, e.g., 5 for very rigorous, 1 for relatively easy. Essays may give some clues away, but it would be easy to counsel applicants not to divulge information that could be personally identifying.
The issue boils down to the manipulation of aggregate statistics. Some people dislike the aggregate statistics they have seen over the years, so they want to manipulate today's aggregate statistics so that they look more like how they feel they should look.
If schools used a strict meritocracy, those that complained about the "unbalance" could be dismissed out of hand, and 90% of the annual admissions anxiety would disappear. If Harvard turned out to be boring, as you said, many students would seek other opportunities and may be very happy at Duke.
3
Knowing how academic research is typically done, I interpreted the Princeton study referenced here to indicate that, given one white and one Asian student with similar extracurricular backgrounds and socioeconomic status, the Asian student is held to a higher test score standard than the white student. That, to me, seems unfair. I am fully on board with Harvard and other Ivies seeking diversity in their student body, but it should be diversity with respect to interests, activities, etc., not race/ethnicity.
With respect to being annoyed that Mr. Jia is complaining about Duke - do you think most Americans would find fault in a NFL draftee complaining about or being upset about being picked to the 8th ranked team vs the 1st ranked team? When his sports stats are as good or better than the guys getting selected for the 1st ranked team?
With respect to being annoyed that Mr. Jia is complaining about Duke - do you think most Americans would find fault in a NFL draftee complaining about or being upset about being picked to the 8th ranked team vs the 1st ranked team? When his sports stats are as good or better than the guys getting selected for the 1st ranked team?
11
It is not obvious whether the Harvard plan is a good plan, but people need to get the facts right.
Asian-Americans and Jewish-Americans are on average richer than every other group of Americans. Affirmative action which kept many European-American - particularly Italian/Polish/Irish-Americans - out of elite colleges does not suddenly become discriminatory when it adversely affect other races, cultures, and religions.
Asian-Americans and Jewish-Americans are on average richer than every other group of Americans. Affirmative action which kept many European-American - particularly Italian/Polish/Irish-Americans - out of elite colleges does not suddenly become discriminatory when it adversely affect other races, cultures, and religions.
6
Actually, if you do your research, Asian-Americans make less than their white counterparts once you control for degree of education and number of years in the workforce. Yes, Asian Americans, on the whole, may be better off financially but that's also lumping all Asian Americans into one category. A lot of studies have shown that when you look at sub-groupings of Asian Americans, many are just as poor as blacks and Latinos (particularly those coming from Southeast Asia).
6
Making above median salary and having generational wealth are very different things. Asian americans typically are in high paying professions, but when family wealth is concerned they are behind whites by a good margin.
3
When have test scores or GPA been the only factor for admissions? The issue with cases like these are how can you say one applicant is more deserving than another? Why are people so quick to categorize all black and Hispanic applicants as unqualified? You haven't read his essays or seen his rewards. How do you know that he was supposed to go to Harvard? I don't know how disadvantaged you can be when you go to Duke. There are countless top notch institutions. If one does not select you, there will be another. I went to a top school where only 1% of the population was black. There was a gap in my education and it showed. I admire a lot of these students at these Ivy leagues. If you have every walked around these campuses you'd see a lot of talented people from all walks of life. That is definitely apart of the Ivy league experience. You are obviously going to need to balance a class. How are you going to have an orchestra if you don't admit a tuba player?
6
Maybe it's Asian-American culture that needs to change. Instead of "tiger mom" pushing in math and science, weekends with a Kumon tutor or piano lessons, Asian parents should allow their kids to hang out with friends, discover their own interests, and just have free time. They will grow into more well-rounded people.
24
Barbara,
How many asian-american families do you know and have spent time getting to know? And what is your definition of a well rounded person? Are all Caucasians well rounded?
Are you an immigrant? Have you had the pressure of coming to a new society and making something of yourself without and support and safety nets?
How many asian-american families do you know and have spent time getting to know? And what is your definition of a well rounded person? Are all Caucasians well rounded?
Are you an immigrant? Have you had the pressure of coming to a new society and making something of yourself without and support and safety nets?
39
It's these sort of gross stereotypes of Asian Americans that enable the discrimination Harvard practices.
74
some do, some don't - just like every other ethnicity. some of us are well-rounded, some aren't. painting asians with such a broad brush reeks of stereotyping.
34
AA provokes two thoughts:
1) White-initiated AA is mostly about self-congratulation so that intellectual elites can pat themselves on the back and sleep well. It is rarely about actually helping minorities. I know because I am an Ivy League grad myself. Real progress for minorities actually takes work, some sacrifice of one's own power/position, and genuine vulnerability to the challenges of less privileged people, all of which run counter to the narrative that elites have in their head.
2) Focusing strictly on racial minorities is a charming, simplified way of looking at the world. Many people from poor backgrounds would fit the bill of underprivileged but are often overlooked. I suspect it is because they are generally from smaller towns, and their values clash with the priorities of "top" colleges (people like Charlotte Simmons).
The bottom line is: real help starts with real caring, and frankly even AA is too late to be dealing with challenges that often begin essentially at youth.
1) White-initiated AA is mostly about self-congratulation so that intellectual elites can pat themselves on the back and sleep well. It is rarely about actually helping minorities. I know because I am an Ivy League grad myself. Real progress for minorities actually takes work, some sacrifice of one's own power/position, and genuine vulnerability to the challenges of less privileged people, all of which run counter to the narrative that elites have in their head.
2) Focusing strictly on racial minorities is a charming, simplified way of looking at the world. Many people from poor backgrounds would fit the bill of underprivileged but are often overlooked. I suspect it is because they are generally from smaller towns, and their values clash with the priorities of "top" colleges (people like Charlotte Simmons).
The bottom line is: real help starts with real caring, and frankly even AA is too late to be dealing with challenges that often begin essentially at youth.
17
From what I know of academia Mr. Jia will not suffer because he'll be unable to claim Harvard alum status. Like many other Americans he labors under the illusion that the name Harvard (or any other so-called Ivy school) will make him a first-rate student & insure a successful life, career and income. Mr. Jia is undoubtedly far ahead of almost all other minorities in the USA in his achievements & motivation to reach the top.
Duke University is a preeminent academic institution & being admitted there is as much an acknowledgement of Mr. Jia's academic potential as admission at other of his preferred schools. If Duke was his fall-back choice, he didn't do badly at all. Mr. Jia has the intellectual capacity to succeed on his own hard work. What Mr. Jia needs is maturity to understand the history of this country in which many his own forebears suffered ignominiously. However, the Asian community is a rousing success story in American immigration & in its level of achievement. It is white America who historically has held back other minorities - in particular African-American and Hispanic citizens - and still retards their advancement in all sectors of American life. America is jailing & killing African-American men at an alarming rate but wants a war on opioids that afflict more whites than any other segment of the population. If ALL Asian-Americans were subjected to living their lives in the USA as many other minorities do, they'd have cause to complain. Mr. Jia does not.
Duke University is a preeminent academic institution & being admitted there is as much an acknowledgement of Mr. Jia's academic potential as admission at other of his preferred schools. If Duke was his fall-back choice, he didn't do badly at all. Mr. Jia has the intellectual capacity to succeed on his own hard work. What Mr. Jia needs is maturity to understand the history of this country in which many his own forebears suffered ignominiously. However, the Asian community is a rousing success story in American immigration & in its level of achievement. It is white America who historically has held back other minorities - in particular African-American and Hispanic citizens - and still retards their advancement in all sectors of American life. America is jailing & killing African-American men at an alarming rate but wants a war on opioids that afflict more whites than any other segment of the population. If ALL Asian-Americans were subjected to living their lives in the USA as many other minorities do, they'd have cause to complain. Mr. Jia does not.
2
Blacks were not happy with separate but equally good dining rooms. It is Mr Jia's prerogative to decide between Harvard and Duke, if he is good enough to get in.
1
These law suits are brought by hard-working and meritorious students, and as an Asian immigrant I'm well aware of the burden of minority taxes. But universities should not confine themselves to formulaic ways of assessing "merit," because merit simply can't be defined or measured in a way that's uniform or fair. The SATs and other measures of merit are, above all, indicators of a student's or school's class position. Did the student with a near-perfect SAT attend a prestigious school and SAT prep classes? Did a kid with fewer advantages from a poorer neighborhood work much, much harder to make it to an 1800 SAT and the district orchestra? Is it fair to give an advantage to a kid whose school offers eleven or more AP classes while another kid comes from a school that only offers five?
Do kids who have to work after school deserve more merit stars than those who don't?
(And another thing -- do college professors value AP courses as much as ambitious parents? I certainly don't. I've met far too many students who come in with AP English credit but really don't have college-level reading & writing skills).
Do kids who have to work after school deserve more merit stars than those who don't?
(And another thing -- do college professors value AP courses as much as ambitious parents? I certainly don't. I've met far too many students who come in with AP English credit but really don't have college-level reading & writing skills).
14
Well, I went to Duke. And, I want to let Mr. Jia know that he should make the most of Duke. There is still a long way to go in Higher Education past the Undergraduate Degree. Perhaps if he still wants to, he can apply to Harvard for Graduate School. ---- If it is any consolation, I went all the way through School, past the Post Doctorate (there is IQ Testing towards the end at the 52nd Grade). And, I did better than the Ivy League when competing at the World Level. So, don't psych yourself out and get eliminated from competition. Don't hand the win to the Ivy League, make them earn it. As you can see, so many Students did not do as well as you did in High School, and they got in, for who knows what reason! Take Care, Austin Jia. Go Blue Devils! Be A Brilliant Star!
4
The lawsuit should add Princeton as a defendant. Of all Ivy League institutions, Princeton has the worst record. The percentage of Asian Americans admitted has remained virtually unchanged for more than a decade even as Asian American student population sky rocketed.
It is also well known that Asian Americans student from lower socio- economic status and foreign Asian students probably have a better odd of getting accepted, because the University stated goal of increasing diversity. The same may not be said of the admission policies applied to other ethnic groups.
It is also well known that Asian Americans student from lower socio- economic status and foreign Asian students probably have a better odd of getting accepted, because the University stated goal of increasing diversity. The same may not be said of the admission policies applied to other ethnic groups.
15
So sad, a bit as foreigners are treated at their universities. I'm more concerned about low-income students across the US having opportunities.
@keepcryingatDuke
@keepcryingatDuke
6
why do you conclude that they are foreigners?
11
This comment is pretty good evidence against the claim that Asians don't face discrimination in the US. Somehow all Asians get labeled as "foreigners," no matter how many generations their families have been here.
31
It's kinda hard to say, what's more impressive
Student A. 1200-1300 sat who had no family go to college, went to a run down inner city school in a single parent home, and worked a side job to have some money.
Student b: Scored a 1500 from parents who have masters and doctorates pushing the kid/ providing a role model, went to the top public/private schools. Had private tutors since childhood and have been doing all these extracurricular activities (all done to get into a top school)
what needs to be addressed with affirmative action is giving weight to socioeconomic standards rather than just purely race.
Student A. 1200-1300 sat who had no family go to college, went to a run down inner city school in a single parent home, and worked a side job to have some money.
Student b: Scored a 1500 from parents who have masters and doctorates pushing the kid/ providing a role model, went to the top public/private schools. Had private tutors since childhood and have been doing all these extracurricular activities (all done to get into a top school)
what needs to be addressed with affirmative action is giving weight to socioeconomic standards rather than just purely race.
188
I agree! Test scores and grades shouldn't determine admission, especially since these numbers can be artificially pumped up by tutors and classes, as you said. However, our current model of race based affirmative action overlooks certain demographics, such as poor Asian Americans. Furthermore, it assumes that every Asian American follows the narrative that you laid out for student B, which is untrue.
4
As an experienced HS educator who has written many college recommendation letters, I feel that the Ivy's do consider socioeconomic factors in their decision process. The problem isn't discrimination against Asians, it's too many legacy students and less qualified athletes.
1
I've got news for you. NEITHER of these kids would get into Harvard or other Ivy League schools. 1500 doesn't cut it.
Absolute reliance on test scores doesn't predict whole picture of what student can add to a well rounded campus body.
11
Diversity is just as important as test scores. Just because a student may not have as high a score as another student doesn't mean that student is less capable and deserving. A study of black law school graduates showed that they were just as accomplished as their white classmates. Even despite of lesser standardized test scores and grades. It's an example that there's only a threshold that must be met and that increasing scores do not translate into increasing rates of success. Tests are imperfect and are not definitive indicators for future achievement.
Having a diverse classroom that results in a more diversified and representative workforce in all types of jobs benefits all. AA is the best way to ensure that a race is not perpetually subjugated to lesser roles in our society. I'm Indian, AA doesn't help my people either, but I can tell you that working with other physicians of various races better serves the communities we serve. It also helps me learn how I can better communicate with those patients.
We should be looking at this as an advantage for all instead of a disadvantage for a few. Those kids that are suing need to learn that life isn't always going to go in their favor. They're going to be okay even if they have to "settle" for another prestigious private or top tier state school.
Having a diverse classroom that results in a more diversified and representative workforce in all types of jobs benefits all. AA is the best way to ensure that a race is not perpetually subjugated to lesser roles in our society. I'm Indian, AA doesn't help my people either, but I can tell you that working with other physicians of various races better serves the communities we serve. It also helps me learn how I can better communicate with those patients.
We should be looking at this as an advantage for all instead of a disadvantage for a few. Those kids that are suing need to learn that life isn't always going to go in their favor. They're going to be okay even if they have to "settle" for another prestigious private or top tier state school.
10
Of course it is true that some professionals, e.g. physicians, benefit from the exposure to diversity if they mainly work with local populations. But there are many intellectually demanding jobs that require little inter-cultural competence, certainly not enough to warrant four years of daily interactions.
We're talking about college admissions - diversity is NOT as important as test scores!!!! Soooo tired of this ... diversity for diversity's sake is lunacy.
Test scores are not the be-all-end-all decision making factor to evaluate applicants. Like I wrote previously once you reach a certain threshold higher scores don't translate into higher success. I scored a 32 on my MCAT. Decent score, but not nearly as high as most of my classmates. I got accepted because during my interview (subjective data). I did well enough that by any measurable criteria for success you could say I did better than the average of my class. I don't think someone with a MCAT of 28 would do as well as me. Therefore, you could say that meeting a MCAT score of at least 30 would likely be enough to be successful. The point is that for every point of 30 doesn't equal to incremental levels of success. In science terms, standardized tests are not 100% specific or sensitive. That's why they consider other subjective factors like extracurriculars and essays to help determine the probability of future success.
Higher education's goal isn't to pick people who will have the highest grades. It's to pick people who they think can translate academic success into real world achievements in all aspects of society. To do that you need diverse people from diverse backgrounds.
Higher education's goal isn't to pick people who will have the highest grades. It's to pick people who they think can translate academic success into real world achievements in all aspects of society. To do that you need diverse people from diverse backgrounds.
As an Asian American I've always supported affirmative action. On the other hand, I have always wondered why I need to do "better" to be considered equal to a white person.
133
...or similarly, why minorities are given academic 'points' to be in the running....
5
welcome to the world of women
3
Proving reverse discrimination requires more than an individual. It requires sufficient volumes to show that a pervasive pattern of exclusion is involved. In that event, affirmative action can provide relief to the affected group. While affirmative action may create a more competitive (reduced supply) admissions outcome for non-protected groups, that is not the basis of discrimination. This will become more and more difficult as society loses cultural identity.
To show that the affirmative action was the cause of Mr Jai's failure to obtain admissions, he will have to show that not only was the diversity quota for Asian-Americans too small as to include him, but that he was also at the or near the bottom of the pool of Asian-Americans.
That is a conflicting augment with "merit". Either the institutions choose based on merit, or they do not. If not, then he has to argue that the sole reason admissions was denied was to achieve a diversity quota, which then also involves proving that within his cohort, he was simply a randomly selected for exclusion, which basically means there can be no damages against him personally. If merit is included, then he must show that he was inferior to all of the accepted cohort, and suffered to fall out as the bottom as the last one in line.
Neither of these are good paths in light of listed achievement and the broad lack of interest by other institutions; Mr. Jai may wish to look deeper within to honestly answer why he was accepted nowhere.
To show that the affirmative action was the cause of Mr Jai's failure to obtain admissions, he will have to show that not only was the diversity quota for Asian-Americans too small as to include him, but that he was also at the or near the bottom of the pool of Asian-Americans.
That is a conflicting augment with "merit". Either the institutions choose based on merit, or they do not. If not, then he has to argue that the sole reason admissions was denied was to achieve a diversity quota, which then also involves proving that within his cohort, he was simply a randomly selected for exclusion, which basically means there can be no damages against him personally. If merit is included, then he must show that he was inferior to all of the accepted cohort, and suffered to fall out as the bottom as the last one in line.
Neither of these are good paths in light of listed achievement and the broad lack of interest by other institutions; Mr. Jai may wish to look deeper within to honestly answer why he was accepted nowhere.
7
He's attending Duke and he's complaining? He needs a reality check, not a lawsuit.
32
Andy, Mr. Jia '...is not a party to the lawsuit against Harvard".
9
Did you read the article? He is not part of the lawsuit.
8
This "new focus" is not sincere. Asian Americans are being used as a political wedge to 1) further this administration's twisted, backwards agenda and 2) pivot themselves against other communities of color. This is purely a strategic move. If the GOP actually cared about AAPI issues, then they would disaggregate their data. The entire discourse is focused on East Asians, which are communities that have much more privilege than South Asians and Southeast Asians. There are so many underrepresented and underprivileged Asian American & Pacific Islanders that benefit from affirmative action.
People think about Asian communities, and they automatically think about East Asians. They think about the academic stereotypes that are perpetuated by articles like this. But what about the fact that Asian/Asian Americans are the poorest group of people in NYC? What about the fact that Hmong families are more likely than any other ethnic group to have incomes >$50,000? What about the fact that Pacific Islanders get virtually no representation? What about the fact that there are black and brown Asian Americans that are constantly silenced by the voices of East Asians?
I go to Duke too, and I also went through the college admissions process as an Asian American, but I know that we are not the new focus. We're just an expendable tool. We're the model minority now, but once this focus goes back to white communities, we'll fall back under yellow peril.
People think about Asian communities, and they automatically think about East Asians. They think about the academic stereotypes that are perpetuated by articles like this. But what about the fact that Asian/Asian Americans are the poorest group of people in NYC? What about the fact that Hmong families are more likely than any other ethnic group to have incomes >$50,000? What about the fact that Pacific Islanders get virtually no representation? What about the fact that there are black and brown Asian Americans that are constantly silenced by the voices of East Asians?
I go to Duke too, and I also went through the college admissions process as an Asian American, but I know that we are not the new focus. We're just an expendable tool. We're the model minority now, but once this focus goes back to white communities, we'll fall back under yellow peril.
250
The legal action by the Asian communities was submitted to the courts in 2015 = pre-Trump...the Obama Administration did not resolve the action so it still standing....
13
Quote: "What about the fact that there are black and brown Asian Americans that are constantly silenced by the voices of East Asians? "
Do you mind giving an example or two of such loud voices of East Asians? Let's see how powerful and constant they are.
Do you mind giving an example or two of such loud voices of East Asians? Let's see how powerful and constant they are.
5
I think you meant to say "less than $50,0000", which would be written as: <$50,000
Disingenuous of Mr. Jia to question the concept of meritocracy or find it defeated in the college admissions process when the whole point of attending an Ivy League is to set oneself up for success in the rest of life, which is so not meritocratic. Or does Harvard offer something incomparable to what other good colleges offer, and if so, why?
5
I for one am tired of seeing Asians penalized for their hard work, while people from other groups are held to a different standard. Asians have faced as much hardship and discrimination as any other group in America. Harvard is supposed to be the best in the world, and its primary purpose in admissions should be to accept the most brilliant people it can. The idea that race would taint that process is utterly appalling and immoral.
522
I would say that brilliance is a part of the equation, but not the equation. There are and have been many brilliant people, but would you want to have them on your campus and attend classes with them?
Also, how do you quantify brilliance? Someone can have perfect SAT scores and straight As, but be a complete dolt and have no social skills.
Also, how do you quantify brilliance? Someone can have perfect SAT scores and straight As, but be a complete dolt and have no social skills.
4
Asians have faced as much hardship and discrimination as any other group in America.
Um, slavery?
Um, slavery?
10
I hardly think getting into Duke rather than Harvard is punishment. No one has concluded that Harvard's standards have been lowered. It's still the best in the world and accepts brilliant people. Making the judgment that a diverse atmosphere of excellence should be a goal does not seem immoral.
3
Colleges wanting diversity is in no way a civil rights issue, and you have to laugh at the hypocrisy of right-wingers who pretend to care about civil rights only when they think it will benefit white people.
11
This is one of those difficult questions. As a tutor in NJ, I see how hard the Asian American students work. Every aspect of their lives has to be perfect, and it places unfair pressure on them. The group most discriminated against appears to be Asian American males. It's interesting that they "just happened" to interview an Asian American girl who was admitted to Harvard, while the boy is at Duke. In my personal experience, this is pretty typical. If you were to look at it objectively, you would call it unjust, but the ramifications of getting rid of affirmative action altogether to cope with this inequity are most likely greater than we can afford as a society.
12
With regard to college admissions, it is best to remember the words of those famous philosophers The Rolling Stones: "You can't always get what you want, but if you try you can get what you need."
9
An SAT score 2340 is not that impressive. It's not a test that really differentiates people well in the upper percentiles. I would really like to see if Mr. Jia has any other qualifications besides being a good student in school. Grades alone should not just open the doors to Harvard. Harvard has room for about 1600 students, but there were likely thousands of kids who applied with these qualifications. What's supposed to set this one apart from the others?
6
With a quarter of the world's population in China alone, never mind other Asian countries, top flight, brilliant Asians certainly could make up the majority of student bodies at all the top US universities, with no compromise to IQ/SAT scores. Is that a great idea? There is a reason many top universities are in the US and not in China. What foreigners are dying to get in Chinese colleges? Certain cultures have a great work ethic, but a long way to go in creativity, freedom of thought, constructive change through reasoned opposition, and concepts of trust, honor, and face. So go ahead, complain all you want. I only support admissions for those who don't just do what their tiger parents or communist government tell them to do, whatever race or color they are. [Yes, I recognize there are Asian-Americans who have been in this country for generations, and foreign nationals who are creative and take initiative. Also obedient white kids with tiger parents.] The leaders of tomorrow are not the robots of high school today, and any top tier school can only take a relative handful of the excellent students - by all criteria - who apply. Many many, brilliant hardworking students competing for very few slots.
205
You are assertive in your argument, but it is actually irrelevant for this issue. The Asians talked about in this report and similar ones are mostly born in the United States and they grow up like usual American kids. Most hail from, as exampled in the report, from public schools in various states. Very few of them have anything to do with the communists in China. Very few can even speak Chinese, but many are steeped in American culture. And they are considered in college admissions in a different pool of candidates from internationals applying from China. So your argument is very misleading.
13
Again this! Look no farther than this comment to see the most bald faced racism and hypocrisy in modern liberalism. I assume the author here believes in affirmative action, and as a corollary that racism is wrong. Yet this is an astoundingly backwards racist diatribe about asian people. "Certain cultures" indeed. As an Asian American, i find this infuriating. If you are against racism, stop being racist, and stop making judgements based on race.
Affirmative action has certainly made gains, but at incredible cost. Could those gains have been made without the hypocrisy of using racism to equalize race inequality? Could socioeconomic based criteria have achieved a similar outcome without sacrificing liberalism to internal inconsistency and damaging it's logical standing? Its unknown because we have chosen to use a wrong to right a wrong.
Modern liberalism is flawed for broken reasoning such as this, and it is an easy and painfully obvious target the conservative dog whistle. You don't have to be a white supremacist to see the obvious contradiction of using racism to end racism. We have the white house and congress that we do, not because the majority of America are racist white males, but because America is tired of this hypocrisy. Its time to unwind this and return liberalism to a logically tenable base. Racism is wrong, so lets stop being racist.
Affirmative action has certainly made gains, but at incredible cost. Could those gains have been made without the hypocrisy of using racism to equalize race inequality? Could socioeconomic based criteria have achieved a similar outcome without sacrificing liberalism to internal inconsistency and damaging it's logical standing? Its unknown because we have chosen to use a wrong to right a wrong.
Modern liberalism is flawed for broken reasoning such as this, and it is an easy and painfully obvious target the conservative dog whistle. You don't have to be a white supremacist to see the obvious contradiction of using racism to end racism. We have the white house and congress that we do, not because the majority of America are racist white males, but because America is tired of this hypocrisy. Its time to unwind this and return liberalism to a logically tenable base. Racism is wrong, so lets stop being racist.
9
This is the worst type of stereotyping that any one could possible do. There are so many things wrong and ignorant about this comment, I don't know where to start. 1. Asian is not limited to 'China'. There are other south asian countries as well and also India. 2. "Certain cultures have a great work ethic, but a long way to go in creativity" - Do you even know any Asian person or have you done any reading about the culture ?
I could go on and on but the thing that stands out for me is that this comment is one of the 'NYT Picks'. If some body had stereotyped black culture as lazy and violent or stereotyped all Hispanics as illegals - NYT editors would blow up !!
FYI - am not saying those stereotypes are correct or should be encouraged. Those are obviously wrong. But NYT editors should not be marking up comment stereotyping 'Asians' as well. At least this much can be expected from them
I could go on and on but the thing that stands out for me is that this comment is one of the 'NYT Picks'. If some body had stereotyped black culture as lazy and violent or stereotyped all Hispanics as illegals - NYT editors would blow up !!
FYI - am not saying those stereotypes are correct or should be encouraged. Those are obviously wrong. But NYT editors should not be marking up comment stereotyping 'Asians' as well. At least this much can be expected from them
4
Whatever your position on using race/gender/sex/other indicators non-related to academic performance, using such categories results in the very same discrimination you profess to despise.
For example: 40 years ago, X person is wronged and denied admission to Y university because of their race/gender/sex/etc., and as a result L person is admitted. Today, to "compensate" for that wrong, Z person gets admitted to H university based on one of these criteria, and as a result W person isn't admitted.
Net result? X remains wronged, and W is newly wronged. There has been no compensation to X, and W is just added to the list of people that were wronged.
Most importantly, you cannot wrong a group. It isn't possible for Y university to wrong everyone in X's group—99.99% of that group didn't apply to Y. X personally was wronged, and the aggregate statistics may suggest why X was wronged (race, sex, etc.), but X is an individual human being. The harm done was to X, and no one else. The only way to compensate is to somehow make X whole. Not X's grandchildren. Not someone unrelated to X in any way. Not someone who happens, 40 years later, to be part of the group that X belonged to, 40 years earlier. Certainly not to H.
Granting H admission on the basis that aggregate statistics 40 years earlier showed that X, et al., was wronged, just means that X remains wronged and W joins The Club of the Wronged. No one was compensated, but the wrongs continue.
For example: 40 years ago, X person is wronged and denied admission to Y university because of their race/gender/sex/etc., and as a result L person is admitted. Today, to "compensate" for that wrong, Z person gets admitted to H university based on one of these criteria, and as a result W person isn't admitted.
Net result? X remains wronged, and W is newly wronged. There has been no compensation to X, and W is just added to the list of people that were wronged.
Most importantly, you cannot wrong a group. It isn't possible for Y university to wrong everyone in X's group—99.99% of that group didn't apply to Y. X personally was wronged, and the aggregate statistics may suggest why X was wronged (race, sex, etc.), but X is an individual human being. The harm done was to X, and no one else. The only way to compensate is to somehow make X whole. Not X's grandchildren. Not someone unrelated to X in any way. Not someone who happens, 40 years later, to be part of the group that X belonged to, 40 years earlier. Certainly not to H.
Granting H admission on the basis that aggregate statistics 40 years earlier showed that X, et al., was wronged, just means that X remains wronged and W joins The Club of the Wronged. No one was compensated, but the wrongs continue.
10
There is a long, well-documented history of discrimination against various groups/ethnicities, notably Jews, at Harvard. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ivy-leagues-history-of-discriminating...
The most dramatic example of high-achieving Asian students exists at Stuyvesant High School, where admission is based solely on one test. Asian students make up 72% of Stuy's students. Colleges and universities do not base admission on one test but on a varied range of other attributes, of which SAT scores are a small consideration. I am highly sympathetic to the ambitions of high-achieving students who apply to Harvard Yale Princeton & Stanford. In recent years, 35,000 to 45,000 students per year apply to these universities, when there are spaces for about 1500 to 2000 students. These universities structure their admissions the way some people structure dinner parties: they "create" the universe they want to see at the university, so that there are student athletes, legacies, musicians, newspaper reporters, kids who will major in Japanese, international students & yes, "underrepresented minorities." This too is well-documented. There are tens of thousands of highly qualified students who apply to these universities who DO NOT GET IN, of all races and backgrounds.
The most dramatic example of high-achieving Asian students exists at Stuyvesant High School, where admission is based solely on one test. Asian students make up 72% of Stuy's students. Colleges and universities do not base admission on one test but on a varied range of other attributes, of which SAT scores are a small consideration. I am highly sympathetic to the ambitions of high-achieving students who apply to Harvard Yale Princeton & Stanford. In recent years, 35,000 to 45,000 students per year apply to these universities, when there are spaces for about 1500 to 2000 students. These universities structure their admissions the way some people structure dinner parties: they "create" the universe they want to see at the university, so that there are student athletes, legacies, musicians, newspaper reporters, kids who will major in Japanese, international students & yes, "underrepresented minorities." This too is well-documented. There are tens of thousands of highly qualified students who apply to these universities who DO NOT GET IN, of all races and backgrounds.
24
Interesting that the suit against Harvard was filed several seasons ago, but this is the first mention in NYT that I have noticed. A friend who was interested in the Fisher/U of Texas case sent me the complaint in the Harvard case. The document represents considerable work and thought. I think Ms Choi, who favors affirmative action and seems unconcerned with the issues in the Harvard suit, is parroting a position that cannot be proven except by anecdotes: that one gets a better education if ones classmates are reflective of the population as a whole, even if less qualified. The static % of Asians at the Ivy Plus schools reflects an outcome suspiciously like the system enacted by the restrictive immigration act of 1919 or 1920, which was aimed at Jews and Italians, mainly.
39
Every student who applies to college writes an essay. It would be worth knowing if Mr. Jia, in all of his accomplishments, did not write an essay that made him attractive to those Ivy League schools.
Plus, everyone knows that if you apply to a bunch of Ivies, each Ivy feels that you are applying to them as back up to another. And that does go into their decision of accepting you. That is why applying to all Ivy's can backfire.
Plus, everyone knows that if you apply to a bunch of Ivies, each Ivy feels that you are applying to them as back up to another. And that does go into their decision of accepting you. That is why applying to all Ivy's can backfire.
4
This blatant discrimination against mostly East Asians and Indians has been going on and most importantly not admitted nor acknowledged for decades. I wrote in a blocked comment on the other article related to this subject in today's NYT that this lack of acknowledgement and scolding of Asians who had the temerity to question their treatment reflected the cowardice of those promoting affirmative action. The tacit and enforced agreement of "silence" on this issue has gone on too long. Let's air it all out and let fairness reign. For a group that is supposed to be all about fairness many of today's social justice warriors are more than a bit tribal than one would hope.
112
Your comment makes no sense. 100 years ago most immigrants were poor and Americans discriminated against them.
Today most first generation Asian-Americans going to Harvard come from rich families. Americans do not discriminate against them.
Today most first generation Asian-Americans going to Harvard come from rich families. Americans do not discriminate against them.
4
Seems reasonable to ask the question. There's a lot of evidence that prejudice against Asian-Americans is endemic.
64
I know that for sure, my daughter-in-law is an American born of Chinese background. She has been discriminated against in her life because of her ethnic background. She did however attend a local University in California. She wasn't discriminated against there and is actually working there almost 20 years later.
1
The University of Texas also characterizes its racial and ethnic preference as "marginal" factors in its holistic admissions process, but they are actually determinative factors. In an amicus brief filed in the Fisher vs. Texas case, UCLA law profession Richard Sander pointed out that racial preferences at the University of Texas are decisive factors: “For example, among freshmen entering the University of Texas at Austin in 2009 who were admitted outside the top-ten-percent system, the mean SAT score (on a scale of 2400) of Asians was a staggering 467 points and the mean score of whites was 390 points above the mean black score. In percentile terms, these Asians scored at the 93rd percentile of 2009 SAT takers nationwide, whites at the 89th percentile, Hispanics at the 80th percentile, and blacks at the 52nd percentile.”
23
The favored group is young men of any ethnicity. Without admission adjustments for them, college populations would be much more heavily female. I don't expect to see this challenged any time soon.
34
This article is disturbing as it pits minorities against minorities. The discussion should expand to examine legacy kids - kids whose Dad or Mom went to Harvard. They make up what % of the class? How do their qualifications compare? I think what you'll see is they are less qualified across the board, make up a higher % of the class, and are mostly white. Yet they, no surprise, are not profiled, while minorities are spotlighted in a zero sum, quota paradigm. If it's really about meritocracy, unlikely, let's check out the legacy kids and their merits. And I say this as someone who went to Princeton whose Dad and uncle went to Princeton and who was surprised at what a large percent of my class are legacy kids.
19
Legacies are a significant percentage of some schools (last time I checked, it was around 12% for some of the Ivies). As far as I'm concerned, they can all go, right along with AA.
I'm not sure what objections like this ("What about legacies??") have in mind. Almost no one defends legacies on the basis of some grand moral principle. They are a practical tool for alumni management, and yes, the aesthetics of intergenerational commitment to institutions. I don't really mind legacies, because they at least seem honest about it. I can't say the same for AA proponents, and of course the legal situation is completely different. But, I suspect many will be eager to accept the tradeoff you imply. I doubt it would make you feel any better about the demise of AA, but you've got a deal, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not sure what objections like this ("What about legacies??") have in mind. Almost no one defends legacies on the basis of some grand moral principle. They are a practical tool for alumni management, and yes, the aesthetics of intergenerational commitment to institutions. I don't really mind legacies, because they at least seem honest about it. I can't say the same for AA proponents, and of course the legal situation is completely different. But, I suspect many will be eager to accept the tradeoff you imply. I doubt it would make you feel any better about the demise of AA, but you've got a deal, as far as I'm concerned.
1
"This article is disturbing as it pits minorities against minorities." That is the bitter fruit of the identity politics game.
10
Legacies @ Harvard (from research I did when my kids applied to school) = 10 to 12% per year...And no, most legacies are very well qualified to attend....MANY legacies are also turned down much to the dismay of alums....Legacies also provided a sense of community and continuity to the particular campus, so there's a plus in taking them on as well.....my child was a legacy @ Harvard....she worked her butt off and deserved every bit to be there as the next kid....but I also knew alums whose children didi not get in...some didn't qualify, some didn't apply....
1
It is so wrong to penalize smart, hard-working, high-achieving Asian students because there are too many of them to fit Harvard's diversity program. How could this not be wrong? There is only one way to solve this fairly-- race-blind admissions. The diversity experiment has been tried now for a few decades. Tim to try a new experiment. See where the chips fall.
426
A well rounded class is comprised of able students who reflect a wealth of backgrounds, interests and experiences. And when the chips fall that the children of alumni, wealthy alumni known as legacy candidates do not gain admission to these universities, the chips will certainly fly.
1
What about legacy admissions? Also, I wish more people like you had advocated for race-blind admissions in the 1800s.
As for how this could "not be wrong," did you read the article? See the quote from the CURRENT HARVARD STUDENT who identifies as Asian-American and who says she benefits from affirmative action. Maybe she knows how it could not be wrong.
Go back more than a "few decades" with your history knowledge and AA makes more sense.
As for how this could "not be wrong," did you read the article? See the quote from the CURRENT HARVARD STUDENT who identifies as Asian-American and who says she benefits from affirmative action. Maybe she knows how it could not be wrong.
Go back more than a "few decades" with your history knowledge and AA makes more sense.
Well, in that case, why not open up admissions to all top- scoring Asians, including those who live abroad, and let them also compete against whites? Do away with white legacy admissions, as well.
In no short time, top universities would then become almost exclusively Asian.
In no short time, top universities would then become almost exclusively Asian.
"It was particularly disturbing, Mr. Jia said, when classmates with lower scores than his — but who were not Asian-American, like him — were admitted to those Ivy League institutions."
This pretty much says it all. Affirmative Action, originally a program to encourage fairness in admissions and hiring, has itself become an agent of discrimination. It is the cruelty of the Jewish quota all over again, except that now, it is Asian children who are most likely to be hurt.
This needn't be the case. An admissions policy that is blind to skin color and ethnicity, but that takes into account the socioeconomic status of a family, would be much fairer than the current system of de facto racial and ethnic quotas.
This pretty much says it all. Affirmative Action, originally a program to encourage fairness in admissions and hiring, has itself become an agent of discrimination. It is the cruelty of the Jewish quota all over again, except that now, it is Asian children who are most likely to be hurt.
This needn't be the case. An admissions policy that is blind to skin color and ethnicity, but that takes into account the socioeconomic status of a family, would be much fairer than the current system of de facto racial and ethnic quotas.
323
Stop saying quotas. That is not what is happening. Quotas are illegal, and using that word feeds misperceptions. Don't feed aggrieved White victimhood.
4
The University of Texas policy is far more fair and sensible. The top 10% of the graduating class from all schools in Texas are eligible to attend. Thus the best students from every school can go, be they white, black, brown or Asian. Even in a poor school it is hard to be in the top 10% and requires work skills and leadership potential.
31
Mr. Jia's error is in thinking that scores are everything. They are not.
I think this lawsuit will highlight issues that many have wondered about. Diversity apparently is great but only for favored minorities. High performing Asians, regardless of socioeconomic background, are probably at a disadvantage to lower performing favored individuals who may come from a more privileged background.
67
Where's your evidence for this outrageous claim? Furthermore, did you know that test scores are very poor predictors of college success beyond the first semester? Those scores correlate to parental income, not ability to succeed. The current standards for admitting have shifted away from numbers to gpa and essay because those criteria work better.
1
Indeed. It's one of the issues that reveals the limitations of "People of Color" as an identity. A policy meant to assist underrepresented racial and ethnic minorities necessarily punishes Asian Americans (and Jewish Americans—though I get the sense that they've been ejected from the club). The justification for the effects of affirmative action policy on white people is "white supremacy," but that argument is a lot more difficult to make about Asian Americans, who, despite also facing racism in a majority white country, have managed to thrive where blacks and Latinos have struggled.
2
Saying there is no correlation between scores and success is as self-serving and untrue as oil companies' saying that there is no global warming. Do not spread untruth. If one has any teaching experience, one will know there is even causation there. Truth is harsh, and many cannot handle it so that they live in wishful thinking and even lie to others.
2
This year whites are a minority at Harvard that includes legacies and athletes and children of donors This makes you wonder about a blue color white kid's chance Yes this makes you wonder Go DOJ
58
Then isn't the issue really about letting in lesser qualified white applicants because they come from well-connected or well-off families instead of highly qualified lower class white students. Where is your outrage over that? The Jared Kushners of the world don't need another leg up.
5
I would venture to guess that students from white blue collar families are represented at Harvard at slightly higher rate than Black students. Question is why do Asians- 5.6% of US population represent 22% of the current Harvard class? This despite the fact that they are discriminated against when it comes to admissions. Things to ponder.
7
"Blue color white kid" is an oxymoron. The phrase is "blue collar."
4
Well, first we need legacy admissions for underachieving kids of alums. Then we need admissions for kids of rich parents or celebrities who will make major contributions to the building fund. Not to worry, after those lower achieving kids are admitted, there are still a few slots left for smart Asian kids.
105
Rich parents are a bad bet because of reversion to the mean (that family is already as smart and rich as it's going to get - the next generation will likely spend down, not increase the pot). Legacy admits are a bad idea; see reversion to the mean, above.
1
Bravo! Perfectly written!
He should be lucky if the worst thing that ever happens to him is having to attend Duke because Harvard rejected him.
283
Duke has been referred to as 'The Harvard of the South'
1
Classic strawman fallacy.
He is very lucky to go to Duke. From observation, Harvard tends to have larger classes than most top private schools, many of the big-name profs are too busy to teach, housing of all types is in the lower half of large universities, and, most of all, Harvard College has a pronounced cultural vibe consisting of: entitlement, arrogance, obscene displays of wealth, defensiveness vis-a-vis the other "good" school in town (MIT) plus the rest of the Ivy League and, for yuks, Stanford. There are good cultural points, too, but they don't come easily to mind. Perhaps athletics? Student standards of dress? Public behavior?
1
Education is about far more than what a student gets out of sitting in class for four years. One of the best and most important aspects of my own education was the opportunity to meet people from all over the world, from various cultural and ethnic backgrounds and students with a wide variety of interests and skill sets. Not everyone was top 2% in terms of their abilities to ace tests, but they brought something else valuable to the table. Universities should and rightly do use a variety of criteria in selecting their student bodies and In the long run it is likely beneficial for all students attending.
134
Universities should try to have a diverse class but not at the expenses of others. Remember quotas for Jewish people in the 50's?? Was that a good idea???
88
It apparently did little harm in the long run.
Well if we're going to talk about the 50s let's talk about the fact that blacks were completely barred from attending almost all "historically-white" universities like Harvard and the other Ivy Leagues. Let's also talk about how the people who have benefited the most from the Civil Rights Movement have been white women and white ethics (Read the book "How the Jews Became White). People who argue against AA as being "unfair" conveniently forget about the historical context of the program and how the US has and continues to marginalize blacks and Latinos. At the root of complaints about AA is a attitude of entitlement AND the racist/anti-black/white supremacist assumption that not only are black and Latino students under-qualified and undeserving of the opportunity but also that they are there ONLY because of a need to fill "AA quotas".
7