Deporting illegal immigrants should be as uncontoversial as it gets in the world of immigration! The bigger issue is the level of legal immigration and whether big business is really using it to import cheap labor that is more compliant and beholden than hiring and training locals.
83
Let's start with fake news: anyone who came across the border without permission IS a criminal, by definition. Immigrants are NOT a boon, let alone illegals; they are an economic catastrophe, costing the taxpayers/wage-earners almost $300 billion per annum. Murders are down -- except in many cities run by Democrats, where they are up substantially. There is no such thing as a "Muslim ban"; you simply invented it.
The idea that enforcing the law and kicking out people who have no right to be here is "un-American" is doublespeak at its finest.
Put very simply, there is no more American virtue than obeying the law. And the last thing we should be doing is providing taxpayer funded handouts to illegals.
If you are here illegally, go home. Go home now before you hear the knock on the door from the people enforcing the law you flout. Take your kids with you. Just go.
And, after we've sent illegals home, we can start with comprehensive immigration reform, akin to Canada's, which essentially ends unskilled immigration, but welcomes those with talents which benefit the country.
The continuing defense by the left of lawbreaking is truly breathtaking. If you don't like borders and favor removing them, have the courage to say so. But stop with the silly editorials which excuse lawbreaking with winks and nods. Insert the word "illegal" before the word "immigrant" wherever it appears. Simple honesty compels nothing less.
The idea that enforcing the law and kicking out people who have no right to be here is "un-American" is doublespeak at its finest.
Put very simply, there is no more American virtue than obeying the law. And the last thing we should be doing is providing taxpayer funded handouts to illegals.
If you are here illegally, go home. Go home now before you hear the knock on the door from the people enforcing the law you flout. Take your kids with you. Just go.
And, after we've sent illegals home, we can start with comprehensive immigration reform, akin to Canada's, which essentially ends unskilled immigration, but welcomes those with talents which benefit the country.
The continuing defense by the left of lawbreaking is truly breathtaking. If you don't like borders and favor removing them, have the courage to say so. But stop with the silly editorials which excuse lawbreaking with winks and nods. Insert the word "illegal" before the word "immigrant" wherever it appears. Simple honesty compels nothing less.
100
"If senators and representatives can’t show courage, then churches, universities, schools, philanthropies, health systems, corporations, farmers and artists can."
In other words, the Real America. A true Coalition of the Willing.
Are you willing, America?
In other words, the Real America. A true Coalition of the Willing.
Are you willing, America?
21
Donald is making a mess of everything and his supporters "like the way he is doing what he promised."
Exactly. What he promised was a sharp departure from American values. What he promised is a return to the time before civil rights, equal rights, gay rights, women's reproductive rights, workplace safety, endangered species and environmental protection, fair pay, expanded medical care and universal voting rights.
it was also the time of military draft, asbestos, political corruption, a 90% top tax rate, back alley abortions, segregation and the KKK.
If this is what 35% of Americans want, then our problem is bigger than Trump.
Exactly. What he promised was a sharp departure from American values. What he promised is a return to the time before civil rights, equal rights, gay rights, women's reproductive rights, workplace safety, endangered species and environmental protection, fair pay, expanded medical care and universal voting rights.
it was also the time of military draft, asbestos, political corruption, a 90% top tax rate, back alley abortions, segregation and the KKK.
If this is what 35% of Americans want, then our problem is bigger than Trump.
32
We should start putting employers in prison for hiring people without e-verify. At the same time, any person from Mexico who goes back should receive a stipend from the US government for three years. $500 per month for each adult. $250 per month for each child. The cost would be less than $50 billion per year or about $150 billion over three years – far less than the cost of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Mexico would benefit because they would get an infusion both of funds and of people who had some experience living in a democratic society.
And of course those Mexicans who DO want to live in the US should be allowed to apply for visas, JUST like the rest of the world. I see no reason why people from Mexico should have priority over people from Nigeria or India. Let them all stand in the SAME line!!
Mexico would benefit because they would get an infusion both of funds and of people who had some experience living in a democratic society.
And of course those Mexicans who DO want to live in the US should be allowed to apply for visas, JUST like the rest of the world. I see no reason why people from Mexico should have priority over people from Nigeria or India. Let them all stand in the SAME line!!
32
On Thursday in Dallas ISD, many kids were out of school for the day without immigrants thing.
A handful of kids were out here and there in the lower grades; many more high schoolers took the day off. On Friday, students reported that they spent the day sleeping in and playing on their phones.
On Friday afternoon, high schoolers staged a "walk out" that involved lots of Mexican flags. This was shown on the local news.
These kids are getting a free education, free breakfast, free books, free lunch, heat in the winter, AC when it's hot, free field trips, free instruments, free braces for their teeth, free glasses, free medical care, and free school supplies whenever they need them. Many of the students are not even immigrants; they were born here. They have nothing to protest.
It angers me that adults lie to them (many students are shocked to learn that Mexico has strict immigration rules) and send them out on the streets with Mexican flags to offend the generous taxpayers of this country who are providing them with what Mexico refused to.
Dishonest editorials like this only hurt those kids. The kids are offending huge numbers of taxpayers who will turn on them so an adult in NYC can feel like a social justice warrior.
A handful of kids were out here and there in the lower grades; many more high schoolers took the day off. On Friday, students reported that they spent the day sleeping in and playing on their phones.
On Friday afternoon, high schoolers staged a "walk out" that involved lots of Mexican flags. This was shown on the local news.
These kids are getting a free education, free breakfast, free books, free lunch, heat in the winter, AC when it's hot, free field trips, free instruments, free braces for their teeth, free glasses, free medical care, and free school supplies whenever they need them. Many of the students are not even immigrants; they were born here. They have nothing to protest.
It angers me that adults lie to them (many students are shocked to learn that Mexico has strict immigration rules) and send them out on the streets with Mexican flags to offend the generous taxpayers of this country who are providing them with what Mexico refused to.
Dishonest editorials like this only hurt those kids. The kids are offending huge numbers of taxpayers who will turn on them so an adult in NYC can feel like a social justice warrior.
87
First of all the danger was invented by Trump during the campaign as are most of the things they are acting upon. These beliefs are not in real things. They have invented things to be afraid of that line up with prejudices they hold which are not acceptable.
Let us start with the “felon” who was convicted for using a made up SSN. First of all that means she was paying taxes. That is how they caught her. I expect this is true of the vast majority of illegal workers with fake and real SSN numbers. Tax they do not claim or get refunds on.
Our own president does not pay taxes and is proud of the fact.
No decent citizen would be anything but ashamed especially if they were a millionaire, never mind and alleged billionaire. These people are running from the danger and chaos the GOP created in Central and South America since the 80’s.
I’m watching today’s news and Trumps insistence that we are not seeing chaos, which can only lead to another leak that proves the chaos and amateur nature of this administration of clowns.
These rally’s are exactly the same thing Hitler and the brown shirts did to whip up their minority of support into a force that will intimidate the rest of us.
I honestly wonder if they aren’t also drug fueled in the dissociation they present when confronted with the facts of their words and behavior.
Let us start with the “felon” who was convicted for using a made up SSN. First of all that means she was paying taxes. That is how they caught her. I expect this is true of the vast majority of illegal workers with fake and real SSN numbers. Tax they do not claim or get refunds on.
Our own president does not pay taxes and is proud of the fact.
No decent citizen would be anything but ashamed especially if they were a millionaire, never mind and alleged billionaire. These people are running from the danger and chaos the GOP created in Central and South America since the 80’s.
I’m watching today’s news and Trumps insistence that we are not seeing chaos, which can only lead to another leak that proves the chaos and amateur nature of this administration of clowns.
These rally’s are exactly the same thing Hitler and the brown shirts did to whip up their minority of support into a force that will intimidate the rest of us.
I honestly wonder if they aren’t also drug fueled in the dissociation they present when confronted with the facts of their words and behavior.
21
The only fever that needs breaking is the open borders virus spread by such ilk as the NY Times, Washington Post and Democrats. When will they realize that the reason that America is great is that it is a nation that lives by the rule of law. To allow 11,000,000 economic opportunists to continue living in the US is to make a mockery of our Nation's immigration laws and shows disrespect to the millions of LEGAL immigrants who waited patiently to enter our country.
Instead of mobilizing just 100,000 National Guard members mobilize every single Guard member. Indicate that May 1st will become known as Mass Deportation Day and have the troops go door to door starting at Maine, working their way South focusing on Sanctuary Cities especially targeting Churches harboring illegal aliens.
Instead of mobilizing just 100,000 National Guard members mobilize every single Guard member. Indicate that May 1st will become known as Mass Deportation Day and have the troops go door to door starting at Maine, working their way South focusing on Sanctuary Cities especially targeting Churches harboring illegal aliens.
56
In 1954, President Eisenhower launched a roundup that removed about 1.5 unauthorized immigrants in just several months. The operation involved only 750 immigration and border patrol officers, a fraction of the force ICE and the Border Patrol could marshal today. In addition to those deported, hundreds of thousands illegal immigrants voluntarily left the country because they feared arrests. However, most Americans wouldn’t insist on the removal of all unauthorized immigrates or even most illegal immigrants. They want to stop future illegal immigration, which is something that the federal government has proven it can’t do alone. We should pass congressional legislation that empowers states, cities and counties to arrest migrants for unlawfully residing in their jurisdictions. We should change policy to deny asylum to all migrants who enter the country illegally. We should amend the citizenship clause to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to U.S. parents. Once these measures are in effect, we should offer citizenship or permanent legal resident status to unauthorized immigrants who have established roots in America
26
Parties in power overreach. They all do. And just as sure as day follows night the voters push back at the next election. Trump is overreaching is far far greater than any perceived mandate he or his followers claim.
The next primaries for the 2018 national election cycle begin in just a few months. Now is a critical period for voters to keep their eyes on the process and the part of the cycle where the power of their individual input is the greatest. To choose the candidates who will appear on party ballots and to shape the issues these candidates will be contracted by their constituencies to fight for.
Time for Democrats and moderate Republicans to find common-ground candidates they both can get behind. Candidates that will work with other similarly chosen candidates to unite and stop this unraveling of the fabric holding our democracy together.
Get foreign governments and their influence out of the process. Shore up voting rights and the security of electronic voting platforms. Make sure that all Americans are able to get out and vote. And that all votes are counted as cast.
Right now Americans are being mesmerized by the wild show Trump is putting on. Caught up in the spectacle to the point they are no longer participants but just spectators. Time for that nonsense to stop. Time to get back to their "peoples' work" of democratic self governing.
The next primaries for the 2018 national election cycle begin in just a few months. Now is a critical period for voters to keep their eyes on the process and the part of the cycle where the power of their individual input is the greatest. To choose the candidates who will appear on party ballots and to shape the issues these candidates will be contracted by their constituencies to fight for.
Time for Democrats and moderate Republicans to find common-ground candidates they both can get behind. Candidates that will work with other similarly chosen candidates to unite and stop this unraveling of the fabric holding our democracy together.
Get foreign governments and their influence out of the process. Shore up voting rights and the security of electronic voting platforms. Make sure that all Americans are able to get out and vote. And that all votes are counted as cast.
Right now Americans are being mesmerized by the wild show Trump is putting on. Caught up in the spectacle to the point they are no longer participants but just spectators. Time for that nonsense to stop. Time to get back to their "peoples' work" of democratic self governing.
6
"Where could the demonizing and dehumanizing of the foreign born lead but to a whiter America?"
What is the point of this statement except to further label and demonize those who want our immigration laws enforced. Dare I say this is a racist, hate-filled statement?
Let me ask. How many Americans is enough? We currently have 324 million people, nearly double from when I was born 60 years ago. The US, with its high consumption levels, is the most overpopulated country in the world. We are rapidly paving over wildlife habitat and agricultural lands, we have drought issues in many areas of the country, record numbers of people on food stamps and in poverty, stagnating wages, overloaded infrastructure, crowding, high levels of greenhouse gas emissions, and increasingly unaffordable housing for many. Do we really need more immigrants from anywhere?
What is the point of this statement except to further label and demonize those who want our immigration laws enforced. Dare I say this is a racist, hate-filled statement?
Let me ask. How many Americans is enough? We currently have 324 million people, nearly double from when I was born 60 years ago. The US, with its high consumption levels, is the most overpopulated country in the world. We are rapidly paving over wildlife habitat and agricultural lands, we have drought issues in many areas of the country, record numbers of people on food stamps and in poverty, stagnating wages, overloaded infrastructure, crowding, high levels of greenhouse gas emissions, and increasingly unaffordable housing for many. Do we really need more immigrants from anywhere?
51
According to the Huffington Post, Trump Vineyards is hiring foreign immigrant workers. So Trump's anti-immigrant stance doesn't apply to his family businesses? This seems like "make Trump great again". I think we have a buffoon for a president and we are in trouble. Even if Trump is impeached and removed from office, we will then be left with Pence - an experienced politican who may be an even bigger problem.
21
We must keep in mind that Donald Trump is a demagogue. Demagogues exploit the nationalism, xenophobia and anti-immigrant sentiments of voters to get themselves into powerful positions. Trump needs scapegoats and enemies to keep his base stirred up and he needs the illusion of his power and control over these alleged enemies to reassure his supporters that he is protecting them against the threat they pose to their power and dominance. This distracts us from having the conversations we must engage in about the morality of our immigration laws and policies, which do not reflect an understanding of the realities of our social and cultural diversity and our interdependence with other nations. Trump criminalizes undocumented immigration in order to criminalize undocumented immigrants in order to legitimize their expulsion and exclusion. As a nation, we must protest and counter this destructive rhetoric and the immoral oppression of immigrant communities and families that it encourages and supports.
Immigration laws do not come down from Mt. Sinai written on stone tablets. We must protest unjust and immoral policies through open discussions of comprehensive immigration reforms focused on the integration of people who come to the USA in search of work and a better life into the economic, social and cultural fabric of our diverse society.
Immigration laws do not come down from Mt. Sinai written on stone tablets. We must protest unjust and immoral policies through open discussions of comprehensive immigration reforms focused on the integration of people who come to the USA in search of work and a better life into the economic, social and cultural fabric of our diverse society.
20
Some of us are feeling threatened. Some of us were born in New York City. Here is another fine piece by a former editor of The Lowell Sun in Mass. Revealing of the high fever some of us are feeling.
http://www.lowellsun.com/latestnews/ci_30803035/president-should-act-pre...
http://www.lowellsun.com/latestnews/ci_30803035/president-should-act-pre...
4
If you don't have your papers, you're a criminal. If you don't pay your taxes, it "makes you smart".
The GOP reverence for the rule of law seems a bit arbitrary. Does it only matter how powerless people are?
The GOP reverence for the rule of law seems a bit arbitrary. Does it only matter how powerless people are?
37
Who is prioritizing fear here? Social fears have been flamed to near-hysteria levels. If the deportation numbers are no more than under Obama, then the "context" is indeed the big difference - and the mainstream media has MUCH to do with this context.
Trump's rhetoric (and his policies) are mostly displays presented to his supporters (non-immigrant working class) that are directed at establishment institutions which maintain trade and immigration policies that hurt the vast numbers of Americans who elected Donald Trump president. These displays are meant to be clear and bold in order to show his sincerity, yes sincerity, at fighting these powerful institutions on their behalf. It's naive to expect major reforms of unjust, entrenched institutions without ANY innocent victims. These innocent victims are used to defend policies that continue to oppress a majority of Americans. This is the dilemma. This is not very similar to National Socialism, where the the powerful institutions, themselves, were oppressing minorities. In that terrible case, the media far under-represented the oppressed - not over-represented them. Here the oppression of the majority is under-represented. Take this paper, say.
Trump's rhetoric (and his policies) are mostly displays presented to his supporters (non-immigrant working class) that are directed at establishment institutions which maintain trade and immigration policies that hurt the vast numbers of Americans who elected Donald Trump president. These displays are meant to be clear and bold in order to show his sincerity, yes sincerity, at fighting these powerful institutions on their behalf. It's naive to expect major reforms of unjust, entrenched institutions without ANY innocent victims. These innocent victims are used to defend policies that continue to oppress a majority of Americans. This is the dilemma. This is not very similar to National Socialism, where the the powerful institutions, themselves, were oppressing minorities. In that terrible case, the media far under-represented the oppressed - not over-represented them. Here the oppression of the majority is under-represented. Take this paper, say.
13
The "fever" is about the corrupting influence of illegal immigration as an economic, social, and political force. It's not "anti-Immigrant." The "fever" is a rejection of ethnic-identity politics and the cynical political machines that self-appointed "Latino" leaders are trying to create. Big city political machines were built on ethnic identities in the 19th and early 20th centuries in the same way. Progressivism was a response to the corruption of these ethnic political machines. We need to reject these ethnic politics again in favor of economic progressivism.
24
Finally, judging by the reader response, the American people are finally speaking truth to unelected power (NY Times) and stating that we are a nation of laws and that they should be enforced. Bravo!
The NY times urges states and local governments to defy Federal authority and not enforce immigration laws. That's coming close to what the southern states did when they they refused to recognize the election of Abraham Lincoln as legitimate and would not respect federal law either. Does the NY times really wish to join such disreputable company?
The NY times urges states and local governments to defy Federal authority and not enforce immigration laws. That's coming close to what the southern states did when they they refused to recognize the election of Abraham Lincoln as legitimate and would not respect federal law either. Does the NY times really wish to join such disreputable company?
55
The furor over the undocumented always surprises me. I don't understand why they are so despised. But I do know that the rancor is always directed at citizens of Latin American countries, while no one is demanding deportation of undocumented immigrants from Europe or Canada, who number in the millions. The only conclusion I can draw is that the fear and hatred is founded in racism. Shame on all of you who seek to make the world a crueler place.
22
We have no need of any more low skilled workers - supply and demand, as always, as even Liberal economist and Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman finally had to admit:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990DEFDC1430F934A15750C0A...
“Many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration — especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans.”
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990DEFDC1430F934A15750C0A...
“Many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration — especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans.”
30
The United States shouldn’t engage sanctuary cities in expensive legal battles over immigrant rights. Instead, it should use the money it saves by reducing or eliminating federal funding to assign more ICE agents to these cities. In addition to increasing deportations, this would allow ICE to more effectively target businesses that employ unauthorized immigrants.
21
One good reason for the Editors to read Readers' Picks: The first 6 readers' picks all point to the failure of these Editors to distinguish between undocumented immigrants and documented immigrants, asylum seekers, and others.
Who edits the copy written by Times Editors? This editorial badly needed and editor for the Editors. I can suggest a few Verifieds who could take on that job.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
Who edits the copy written by Times Editors? This editorial badly needed and editor for the Editors. I can suggest a few Verifieds who could take on that job.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
31
In America, they came first for the undocumented Mexicans, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t an undocumented Mexican;
And then they came for the Muslims, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Muslim;
And then they came for the newspapers, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a writer;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.
-- edited version of the famous quote by Martin Niemöller
And then they came for the Muslims, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Muslim;
And then they came for the newspapers, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a writer;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.
-- edited version of the famous quote by Martin Niemöller
11
Let's try everyday without an illegal immigrant
28
The fact is that most undocumented workers are exploited I know this from being in the restaurant business. We did not have to pay for workers compensation insurance, FICA taxes, unemployment insurance or comply with OSHA employments. We saved a lot of money over hiring a US citizen on the books. When an employee got seriously burned or hurt, the owner would drop him or her off and the emergency room and find another undocumented worker as a replacement. This is what is not reported in the news.
33
Dear NYT: It would be nice if you would report sometime on how Mexico treats its own illegals from South and Central America, you know, for some context.
34
Trump is correct. Dishonest media. Trump and his supporters are against ILLEGAL immigration. I think the far left likes unchecked immigration because it helps fuel demand / preserve value for the very expensive real estate that is in blue sancutary cities. And provides ample supplies of cleaning women, nannies, and other servants.
26
Most of the negatives I have seen over the past month are the reporting of this paper about the unfolding of the Presidency. The tne is less than objective. I am ashamed of the political reportin of the New York Times, and if it were not for the stregnth of your other departments, I would drop-kick my subscription into the gutter where it belongs.
31
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325
So yes, if they enter the country illegally or have eluded immigration inspectors, they are criminals. Why do we want to favor this particular class of criminals over people who have entered the country legally and follow the law in applying for citizenship?
So yes, if they enter the country illegally or have eluded immigration inspectors, they are criminals. Why do we want to favor this particular class of criminals over people who have entered the country legally and follow the law in applying for citizenship?
32
Illegal immigrants don't belong and it's crazy to suggest otherwise.
24
A rational immigration policy, i.e. one crafted by adults, would admit immigrants in accordance to our national needs, their skills, shared values, and their ultimate ability to contribute to the nation.
This policy should recognize the stark reality of global economics and our position in that frame work. Living wages can no longer be made by illiterates. Low skill jobs have evaporated. The huge influx of unskilled immigrants has ( and will continue ) to create a “race to the bottom” on the wage scale. Employers love them because they can avoid offer benefits. As a result, their lives rely upon the subsidies of our frayed social safety net.
Illiterate, low skill workers typically cannot command a wage sufficient to pay income taxes. Further, they (and their employers) prefer a cash based economy, thereby hiding their income from taxation. Their apparent poverty assures that they qualify for benefits.
It is in disputable that most illegal immigrants are honest and hardworking. However it requires magical thinking to think that they do not take many jobs ( and the associated benefits ) from existing citizens. It is a myth that there are 12 million jobs that citizens “ didn’t want to take.”
This policy should recognize the stark reality of global economics and our position in that frame work. Living wages can no longer be made by illiterates. Low skill jobs have evaporated. The huge influx of unskilled immigrants has ( and will continue ) to create a “race to the bottom” on the wage scale. Employers love them because they can avoid offer benefits. As a result, their lives rely upon the subsidies of our frayed social safety net.
Illiterate, low skill workers typically cannot command a wage sufficient to pay income taxes. Further, they (and their employers) prefer a cash based economy, thereby hiding their income from taxation. Their apparent poverty assures that they qualify for benefits.
It is in disputable that most illegal immigrants are honest and hardworking. However it requires magical thinking to think that they do not take many jobs ( and the associated benefits ) from existing citizens. It is a myth that there are 12 million jobs that citizens “ didn’t want to take.”
26
How come Dean Baquet and the editorial staff are ripping their guts out over the fate of prospective immigrants in far-off lands ? How does importing thousands upon thousands of poor third world folk---many of whom are Muslim---help or benefit the American worker who may or may not watch his/her job disappear? I know Mr. Baquet wants to feel virtuous but really.... at what price as far as the average citizen is concerned ?
23
Look what illegal immigration has done to the building trades.
In the metro Washington area almost all the road crews are central american.
Concrete,drywall,demolition, and roofing the same.
Back breaking low skill work that would allow a man to raise a family.
You now have a compliant workforce you can under pay and cheat, great for the bottom line.
After your legal company gets trounced by those using illegals under the guise of subcontractors, you would change your tune.
And the American's you used to employ, well too bad.
In the metro Washington area almost all the road crews are central american.
Concrete,drywall,demolition, and roofing the same.
Back breaking low skill work that would allow a man to raise a family.
You now have a compliant workforce you can under pay and cheat, great for the bottom line.
After your legal company gets trounced by those using illegals under the guise of subcontractors, you would change your tune.
And the American's you used to employ, well too bad.
28
The stance on immigration by the NYTimes is nothing but the other side of the coin of that posited by Donald Trump. Both are extreme. Both are radical. One would have open, porous borders and the other a wall. Where is the middle?
19
And how will we deal with the new fake-news producer Donald Trump who in a video today at the Times asks "What about what happened in Sweden last night?"
His supporters will quickly turn to the work of the fake-news factory in Macedonia where they will very likely find a fake story about what happened in Sweden last night. This fake-news factory is described in detail in my Swedish newspaper, DN
Note that Trump by raising such a question does not need to state what happened last night in Sweden. He knows all too well that if there is as yet no such story at Alt-Right sources there soon will be one. The Macedonian producer of such stories tells the DN reporter who visited him that all he needs to do is find something bad that happened in Sweden, perhaps perpetrated by an ethnic Swede drug addict, and that incident will instantly become something done by an asylum seeker.
Is there any precedent for a president of the United States doing what Trump does using this technique?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
Note that when this appears one of my troll followers very likely will submit a reply that will be approved by a reviewer no matter how extreme the reply.
His supporters will quickly turn to the work of the fake-news factory in Macedonia where they will very likely find a fake story about what happened in Sweden last night. This fake-news factory is described in detail in my Swedish newspaper, DN
Note that Trump by raising such a question does not need to state what happened last night in Sweden. He knows all too well that if there is as yet no such story at Alt-Right sources there soon will be one. The Macedonian producer of such stories tells the DN reporter who visited him that all he needs to do is find something bad that happened in Sweden, perhaps perpetrated by an ethnic Swede drug addict, and that incident will instantly become something done by an asylum seeker.
Is there any precedent for a president of the United States doing what Trump does using this technique?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
Note that when this appears one of my troll followers very likely will submit a reply that will be approved by a reviewer no matter how extreme the reply.
3
I grew up in a farm community in West Texas, and being a W sat at the table with the Zamoras and Zapatas and others at the end of the alphabet and in the back of the room. These children were from "illegal" immigrant migrant farmworker families. They often lived in three room houses where the children slept on cardboard in one room. My family lived in a neighborhood of second generation immigrants who grew up as those children. I knew them well. Overall, they became educated, employed, successful, and in many cases political. Today in terms of achievement, they far outstrip the "whites" who grew up with privilege and who are fervently racist Trump supporters wrapped in their local churches preaching fundamentalist hatred. The Anti-Immigrant Fever represents cancer at the core of American values and needs to be treated as such or we will end up going down the rabbit hole of facist right wing extremism and the American experiment will be over.
13
If democrats continue to shove open borders to the front of their platforms, they will lose elections. I hate Trump. I despise his heartless splitting up of families and all of the other horrors and fear he's brought down on these people, like holding many indefinitely in third-world condition detention centers. I lose sleep thinking about this abomination who stole the presidency. But democrats will never be in a position to stop him unless they get elected, and that's not going to happen if they don't address the fear (manufactured by the right) and anger (justified in many cases) among a large part of the electorate who believe a nation's borders are a bulwark against invasion, peaceful or otherwise.
10
People who support open borders are no different than ante-bellum slavery apologists.
Like the slavers, today's open border advocates use appeals to morality, scripture, and a defense of the status quo to defend their desire for cheap labor. Like the slavers, today's open border advocates say that cheap labor, and a life in the shadows, is good for the "slaves," because what else will they do?
Like the slavers, today's open border advocates are Democrats, and the party that promises to free us from the slavery of a flood of cheap labor via open borders is the party of Lincoln. And just as the New York Times opposed Lincoln and abolition, today's New York Times opposes Trump and the fight against the slavery of no-borders and illegal immigration.
Fighting today's slavers is going to require tenacity, creativity, and a tough stomach. Luckily though, today's slavers are different from our Southern and NYC Democrat slavers of 1860 in one very important regard; the slavers of the past actually used force and violence to keep their slaves and protect their slave system. Today's slavers only have stories, pictures, and a march here and there. I guess that's what we get when our slavers are too delicate for a little lawn work, farm work, restaurant work or child care. We get a group that tries to use guilt instead of guns to keep their slaves. Which is actually pretty nice, and more pathetic too.
Like the slavers, today's open border advocates use appeals to morality, scripture, and a defense of the status quo to defend their desire for cheap labor. Like the slavers, today's open border advocates say that cheap labor, and a life in the shadows, is good for the "slaves," because what else will they do?
Like the slavers, today's open border advocates are Democrats, and the party that promises to free us from the slavery of a flood of cheap labor via open borders is the party of Lincoln. And just as the New York Times opposed Lincoln and abolition, today's New York Times opposes Trump and the fight against the slavery of no-borders and illegal immigration.
Fighting today's slavers is going to require tenacity, creativity, and a tough stomach. Luckily though, today's slavers are different from our Southern and NYC Democrat slavers of 1860 in one very important regard; the slavers of the past actually used force and violence to keep their slaves and protect their slave system. Today's slavers only have stories, pictures, and a march here and there. I guess that's what we get when our slavers are too delicate for a little lawn work, farm work, restaurant work or child care. We get a group that tries to use guilt instead of guns to keep their slaves. Which is actually pretty nice, and more pathetic too.
22
Unauthorized citizens who pose as U.S. citizens or present false Social Security numbers are felons. Congress made posing as a U.S. citizen a felony offense because illegal immigration undermines America’s ability to control its borders and regulate immigration. 18 USC Sec. 1015 states “Whoever knowingly makes any false statement or claim that he is, or at any time has been, a citizen or national of the United States, with the intent to obtain on behalf of himself, or any other person, any Federal or State benefit or service, or to engage unlawfully in employment in the United States” can be imprisoned up to five years. The same section states “Whoever uses or attempts to use any certificate of arrival, declaration of intention, certificate of naturalization, certificate of citizenship or other documentary evidence of naturalization or of citizenship, or any duplicate or copy thereof, knowing the same to have been procured by fraud or false evidence or without required appearance or hearing of the applicant in court or otherwise unlawfully obtained” a felony offense punishable by up to five years in prison.
17
Trump's ban, its merit or lack thereoff will be discussed in view of factual E.U. experience.
However, when Muslim countries protest Trump's ban, it ought to be mentioned that there are some 16 Muslim countries who ban Israeli passport holders from entering.
" What's Good for the Goose it's also Good for the Gander"
However, when Muslim countries protest Trump's ban, it ought to be mentioned that there are some 16 Muslim countries who ban Israeli passport holders from entering.
" What's Good for the Goose it's also Good for the Gander"
11
It is a sad reflection on American values that we did not witness a similar level of liberal-progressive solidarity for the Black Lives Matter movement when people of color were being executed in the streets by uniformed police. Apparently, racism still runs very deep in our country, even at our major newspapers.
5
Please, there's a huge difference between a day without immigrants and a day without UNDOCUMENTED immigrants. Stop conflating the two. It's about being anti-illegal immigration. Not anti-immigrants. Immigrants are huge contributors and you won't get much opposition on that, but mudding the waters of legal and illegal immigration is ridiculous and only confuses the issue. Personally, I'm tired of seeing how the illegal community abuses our system. They say they pay taxes, but don't receive any benefit. This is mostly untrue. Having worked with the undocumented population in immigration matters, I saw first hand how they would have several children born in the US all receiving welfare because while the illegal immigrant wasn't eligible for benefits, but ALL their US born children were. Then healthcare, they too would benefit, whether it was getting free health care through the state system for their children and/or they would simply use the emergency rooms for free under EMTLA. As for families being broken apart, most had children they already left behind in their home country and also had new children here, so either way they had already chosen to break up their own family. Additionally, if they are deported there is nothing to stop them from taking their US born children back to their country with them. So really I can't understand why every other legal person must be accountable for the person who decided to make a choice and take the risk of coming in illegally.
30
As I travel the country I speak with a lot of contractors. The consistent refrain everywhere I go is that they cannot get good help. A fellow in Portland this week said the same. He has some undocumented folks working for him for 10 & 15 years. He is afraid Trump will ruin his business. The last three white US citizens he hired lasted less than a month. They were unwilling to work, let alone work hard. Keep good people here!
8
You either have a law, or you don't. You either enforce it, or you don't.
I guess we know now where the NYT stands, but we have to ask: what law do they want? Open borders with Mexico and Canada? The so-called "reform" of which they speak is a mirage, something that we already had but which didn't work 30 years ago, insofar as it failed to reduce "undocumented" immigration.
If you want open borders say so. If you want a 30-year amnesty cycle, say so. Just quit complaining about a law that is already the one you pretend to want.
I guess we know now where the NYT stands, but we have to ask: what law do they want? Open borders with Mexico and Canada? The so-called "reform" of which they speak is a mirage, something that we already had but which didn't work 30 years ago, insofar as it failed to reduce "undocumented" immigration.
If you want open borders say so. If you want a 30-year amnesty cycle, say so. Just quit complaining about a law that is already the one you pretend to want.
29
This paper's perpetual refusal to admit any downside to massive Latino immigration makes it impossible to take it seriously. If these people are so valuable, surely Mexico needs them home,
28
Not being a fear monger, like the frequent tweets would have, I do have serious concerns about the current process going with ICE. Is this the forerunner of a much more insidious process. Our country has never had a national police force. Each locality builds and finances law enforcement officers and tasks them with "protecting and serving" their citizens. These local forces do not have authority to enforce their locality's conventions or laws on any other's. Is this increase of ICE's size and scope of authority, being nation-wide, the first step in establishing this kind of national police force responsible for selective enforcement at the direction of the president? If you consider the FBI as currently being such a force, then why is a new organization being built-up to undertake that part of the FBIs responsibility?
3
There is little, if any, anti-immigrant fever in this country. What there is is an increasing anti-illegal immigrant fever.
Until the Times and other left-leaning pundits realize this important distinction, they will never connect with the American people and will continue to lose ground on the issue of immigration.
We are a nation of LEGAL immigrants. Myself, and most of my friends, are no more than three generation away from people who left their homeland and went through the process of lining up at Ellis Island or its equivalents, honestly answering questions posed by government agents, and taking the chance of being sent right back if they did not qualify for admission.
The advantage of having done so? They never lived in fear of "the fists pounding on the door, the agents in black, the cuffs, the van ride, the cell" because they were LEGAL immigrants. Had the 11 million law breaking immigrants done the same thing, they would not live in fear either.
Until the Times and other left-leaning pundits realize this important distinction, they will never connect with the American people and will continue to lose ground on the issue of immigration.
We are a nation of LEGAL immigrants. Myself, and most of my friends, are no more than three generation away from people who left their homeland and went through the process of lining up at Ellis Island or its equivalents, honestly answering questions posed by government agents, and taking the chance of being sent right back if they did not qualify for admission.
The advantage of having done so? They never lived in fear of "the fists pounding on the door, the agents in black, the cuffs, the van ride, the cell" because they were LEGAL immigrants. Had the 11 million law breaking immigrants done the same thing, they would not live in fear either.
32
I do believe that there are far too many illegal immigrants in the US. However, I wonder why there was no amnesty under Obama in order to try to get some of these "illegals" legal status. Is it because their illegal status is convenient for the powers that be? If so, then Trump is not to blame for the recent issues. I find that these people were treated horribly, and I hope that something other than keeping them here in their second class status can be found as a solution.
7
I did not support Donald Trump in the presidential elections, but often wonder why the media and the left refer to him as 'anti immigrant' when, in fact, he is anti 'ILLEGAL' immigrant. It seems to me that this is just another example of the left trying to frame the issue in a dishonest way so as to make the right worse than they actually are.
25
I'll tell you this - anyone who doesn't understand that immigration is a necessity for future economic prosperity is living in a fool's paradise. Demographics don't lie, unlike the so-called leader of the free world. Japan is a fate lying in wait for other developed countries who don't believe in the value of immigration. That's why Canada had it's highest immigration last year since the early 1900's (300,000 arrivals) and a government panel recommended an immediate increase to 450,000. On a per capita basis (multiply by 10) Canada's immigration is the highest in the world, much higher than our neighbour to the south and guess what? We have a higher quality of life, better education system, universal healthcare and far fewer problems than the Excited States to the south.
7
This is 100% about growing the base of the Democratic Party.
Does anyone seriously doubt that if the illegals streaming across the border were likely to be self sufficient, not require public assistance, and thus have no use for the pandering and vote-buying of the Democratic Party, that the NYT would all of a sudden find the mass violation of our nation's immigration laws an urgent problem needing immediate action?
Does anyone seriously doubt that if the illegals streaming across the border were likely to be self sufficient, not require public assistance, and thus have no use for the pandering and vote-buying of the Democratic Party, that the NYT would all of a sudden find the mass violation of our nation's immigration laws an urgent problem needing immediate action?
25
Dear NYT: Why must you constantly distort the facts in order to make your point? The movement isn't against "immigration"; it is against "illegal" immigration.
When you play word games like this, you give credence to those who characterise your publication as fake news.
I really wish you guys could just play it straight, but if you must editorialise why must you resort to Newspeak?
When you play word games like this, you give credence to those who characterise your publication as fake news.
I really wish you guys could just play it straight, but if you must editorialise why must you resort to Newspeak?
28
I lived and worked in Mexico for many years and my wife is Mexican-American and we were stationed in Mexico for quite a few years.
We are now paying the enormous penalty for "open borders". Here in Houston where I now live, we are drowning in illegal aliens. They clog our emergency rooms, our schoolrooms, and yes, they commit a staggering number of violent crimes. We have several illegals on Texas death row awaiting execution for capital murders including two serial rapists who kidnapped and killed all of their victims. At LBJ Hospital here, they've estimated that eighty percent of all births are to illegal alien mothers. In Dallas yesterday, a local TV station showed a violent demonstration by high school students, all illegals, who were flying the flag of Mexico, so one can only question their loyalties.
The problem is that for too many decades, liberals have told these people they can have it both ways. There are decent, law abiding aliens who are trying to gain their citizenship through legal channels, but at least 11 million of them have shot their middle finger at our system of justice. Trump has energized the electorate and God bless him for doing so. Deport them please Mr. Trump. We are a sovereign nation with the right to defend our borders and we have to start somewhere.
We are now paying the enormous penalty for "open borders". Here in Houston where I now live, we are drowning in illegal aliens. They clog our emergency rooms, our schoolrooms, and yes, they commit a staggering number of violent crimes. We have several illegals on Texas death row awaiting execution for capital murders including two serial rapists who kidnapped and killed all of their victims. At LBJ Hospital here, they've estimated that eighty percent of all births are to illegal alien mothers. In Dallas yesterday, a local TV station showed a violent demonstration by high school students, all illegals, who were flying the flag of Mexico, so one can only question their loyalties.
The problem is that for too many decades, liberals have told these people they can have it both ways. There are decent, law abiding aliens who are trying to gain their citizenship through legal channels, but at least 11 million of them have shot their middle finger at our system of justice. Trump has energized the electorate and God bless him for doing so. Deport them please Mr. Trump. We are a sovereign nation with the right to defend our borders and we have to start somewhere.
31
As usual, and in keeping with the new and deceptive mantra of the Democrat party, The Times equates illegal immigrants and legal immigrants as the same thing. They are not. Illegal is illegal. Trump, like most Americans, wants to enforce the law and deport lawbreakers who entered America illegally, starting with violent criminals and drug dealers. And Trump, like most Americans, has no problem whatsoever with immigrants who wait their turn to enter our country legally by obeying America's immigration laws. Why can't The Times and like minded liberals understand the difference? Is it because they condone illegal immigration? There is no other possible reason.
28
This is the 1st time in a long time that I find a breath of fresh air in the numbers of well received comments posted by Americans from across the nation who do not toe the line of the NY Times editorial board or agree with the EB that there is Anti-Immigrant fever over illegal immigrants. There is a silent patriotic majority reflected by the election of Trump that thinks that the coastal and urban residents of the US have been too liberal and too lackadaisical in enforcing the laws and being overly compassionate instead of being appropriately compassionate. I am now convinced beyond doubt that the single most issue that galvanized the basket of "deplorables" to oppose those they perceive have failed on the issue of illegal immigrants and intake of poorly vetted refugees. The dems somehow thought that by looking the other way at illegal entry and accumulating illegals they were building their future vote bank. The popular vote victory of Clinton clearly reflected that thinking was somewhat right but the overwhelming concentration of illegals in coastal states, that have exploited the illegal immigrants for their own financial gain of employing cheap labor could not persuade the electoral college to coincide with the popular vote. Trump may have gone overboard in enforcing laws and taking the bull by its horns like a matador, but besides getting BAD Press and protests his core support has not eroded. One by one all the major foreign leaders also want to get along with Trump.
22
There is no anti-immigrant fever.
It's ILLEGAL immigrants and the enforcement of the law - a law agreed to in a bipartisan consensus in 1986. Even today no politician wants open borders; it's absurd ... it really is fake news to headline "anti-immigrant fever."
It's ILLEGAL immigrants and the enforcement of the law - a law agreed to in a bipartisan consensus in 1986. Even today no politician wants open borders; it's absurd ... it really is fake news to headline "anti-immigrant fever."
22
Let's resist and hope that we are more like the child drawn to the orange stove burner than the moth to the golden glow of the porchlight. We use this election as a cautionary tale after getting burnt by Trumpishness rather than incinerated as the moth. Heal in 2020. Return to sanity.
They are not " supposed criminals" they are real criminals, as you state in the same paragraph, they are "living outside the law". And you have the audacity to wonder why nobody - at least people who can think - puts any trust in what you say. Geez!
27
Obama deserved the title Deporter-in Chief. He was more efficient than the immediate presidents who came before him. I wondered why he didn't get the credit he deserved for the misery he was responsible for.
But I realized he did it more covertly and without the hateful rhetoric that clearly is as important as the actual ripping people away from their families and friends. And probably being black also diminished the enthusiasm.
Now we have an unbridled thug in office, with salivating ICE agents already in motion. The hateful rhetoric is in place.
You can feel the hesitation of a full throated condemnation of Obama's actions in this editorial. Actions which helped pave the way to what is happening now.
Thankfully the resistance is growing in size and strength. But even if can stop this horror, so many people are being harmed along the way.
But I realized he did it more covertly and without the hateful rhetoric that clearly is as important as the actual ripping people away from their families and friends. And probably being black also diminished the enthusiasm.
Now we have an unbridled thug in office, with salivating ICE agents already in motion. The hateful rhetoric is in place.
You can feel the hesitation of a full throated condemnation of Obama's actions in this editorial. Actions which helped pave the way to what is happening now.
Thankfully the resistance is growing in size and strength. But even if can stop this horror, so many people are being harmed along the way.
1
There is a huge difference between legal and illegal immigration. Legal immigration produces a highly diverse stream of immigrants who come speaking a multitude of languages from a multitude of countries and cultures. Their tremendous diversity encourages them to assimilate and acculturate into American society rather than coalescing in racial and ethnic enclaves. They also tend to possess the skills and education required to flourish in U.S. society. Illegal immigration produces a non-diverse, low-skilled and poorly educated stream of migrants who lack the skills and education required to assimilate, acculturate and flourish in U.S. society. Since the majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanics who settle in states like California or Texas that already have Hispanic majorities, they decrease rather than increase diversity.
17
"This is not an abstract or fanciful depiction. It is not fake news. It’s the United States of today, this month, this morning."
The title of the story stand-alone sounds like face news to me "Breaking the Anti-Immigrant Fever". To communicate accurately, it should, in my opinion have read "Breaking the Illegal Alien Fever", since "Illegal Alien" is an unbiased term I believe is used in Federal Law.
To lump objections to Illegal Aliens, and potentially dangerous refugees, with a rejection of the Americas tradition of legal immigration, in my view is quite deceptive. I come from legal immigrants. I am married to a legal immigrant who is now a citizen. I am pro immigration in general but in may cases I am Anti Illegal immigrant, and Anti inadequately vetted immigrant.
If an aging United States needs young, capable immigrants, I am confident we can get as many as we need from around the world with a focused legal immigration policy. While legal immigration is a mutual decision by the host country and immigrant, illegal immigrants are self selected only and include many we would reject.
In my view, those who come to the United States, should do so because they love America and would like to become Americans. They should come here to embrace our laws, and because they love the American people and its unique environment. Those who hate or look down on our culture, should perhaps not come.
Perhaps the Times should choose words more to inform than to persuade.
John
The title of the story stand-alone sounds like face news to me "Breaking the Anti-Immigrant Fever". To communicate accurately, it should, in my opinion have read "Breaking the Illegal Alien Fever", since "Illegal Alien" is an unbiased term I believe is used in Federal Law.
To lump objections to Illegal Aliens, and potentially dangerous refugees, with a rejection of the Americas tradition of legal immigration, in my view is quite deceptive. I come from legal immigrants. I am married to a legal immigrant who is now a citizen. I am pro immigration in general but in may cases I am Anti Illegal immigrant, and Anti inadequately vetted immigrant.
If an aging United States needs young, capable immigrants, I am confident we can get as many as we need from around the world with a focused legal immigration policy. While legal immigration is a mutual decision by the host country and immigrant, illegal immigrants are self selected only and include many we would reject.
In my view, those who come to the United States, should do so because they love America and would like to become Americans. They should come here to embrace our laws, and because they love the American people and its unique environment. Those who hate or look down on our culture, should perhaps not come.
Perhaps the Times should choose words more to inform than to persuade.
John
19
Many commentators describe U.S. deportation policy as racist. However, most unauthorized immigrants are white. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the United States was 77.1 percent white in 2015, up from 72.4 percent in 2010, due primarily to immigration from Latin America. Latinos can be of any race or mixture of races, but most are white.
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045215/00
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045215/00
12
I cannot tell you how much it means to me to see the New York Times standing up for decency and what is right. I am not an American, but I am fearful of the disastrous policies pursued by the Trump Administration. These policies will not only jeopardize the safety and security of the United States they also undermine and threaten the entire US led world economy. Not only are Trump's policies against Mexican's and immigrants asinine, they threaten the very fabric of America's hegemony throughout the world. If you want to see what chaos looks like, just imagine America devolving into a state of anarchy that is Russia or Venezuela. Think it can't happen in America? Just remember this, its a lot easier to destroy something than build what has taken 72 years of careful diplomacy and millions of sacrificed lives in the two World Wars. I hope every American and every citizen of the world will fight the menace of the malignant Trump world view. All I can say is thank God America has an energetic free press. Without it America doesn't stand a chance.
7
"About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law. They await the fists pounding on the door, the agents in black, the cuffs, the van ride, the cell. They are terrified..."
Well, that's easily solved: They can go back to where they came from and quit breaking US law just by their presences here. Then, if they really want to live in the US, they can get in line and wait their turn.
Well, that's easily solved: They can go back to where they came from and quit breaking US law just by their presences here. Then, if they really want to live in the US, they can get in line and wait their turn.
24
People waving foreign flags is certainly not going to gain any sympathy for an immigrants cause! To enter America, become American.
26
This entire "anti-immigrant" narrative is completely false--if effective--is the msm and left are in lock-step and never depart from the storyline. Equating--through omission or commission--is just like equating thieves and shoppers. Both are taking products out of the store; let's not get into the details. Policies like DACA are just the foot in the door, as it were. If the logic is that children brought here illegally cannot be forced to leave, nor can the families be broken up, then logically--and in fact--an adult who enters the country and brings his children along cannot be forced to leave, either. Similarly for illegal immigrants who give birth here. Evidently, they cannot be forced to repatriate, either. One should ask--although we know the answer--what then is the limiting factor in immigration. Likewise, for immigrants to demand assylum based on economic or crime circumstances, limits essentially no one, let alone that most simply stay and are not compelled to show up at their hearings. The only difference between these policies and open borders is tactics and time. Some immigrants do, indeed make this country stronger--the evidence is miles high--but the efforts on the left to effectively open borders are transparent to anyone asking the most basic questions.
16
America is a country of laws, not emotions. Or was once, and still should be.
Laws are made in Congress. To protect against irrational and rash anti-immigration policies, stop the endless obsession about the clown in the White House and help educate the citizenry so that it can elect a less stupid Congress in 2018.
Laws are made in Congress. To protect against irrational and rash anti-immigration policies, stop the endless obsession about the clown in the White House and help educate the citizenry so that it can elect a less stupid Congress in 2018.
6
Hey, NYT, nice try. Nobody is against legal immigration but whatever you are trying to do isn't going to work at all. We voted. We want the illegals out. The only fever we have is to see these folks deported!
25
The NYT Editorial Board needs to ask themselves why the illegal immigrants are here in the first place. The answer is because "progressive" politicians and their supporters have encouraged the illegal immigration. They have done so for votes and power, and it ultimately is cruel - inevitably there was going to be a backlash as the majority of Americans oppose illegal immigration. So instead of pointing fingers at Trump, reverse the direction of the pointed finger.
21
…"That murders are up, when they are down. That refugees flow unimpeded into the country, when they are the most meticulously vetted people to cross our borders. That immigrants and refugees are terrorists, when they are the ones being terrorized."
The NYT has spent a lot ink pushing the 'fact' that shootings are increasing, especially mass shootings, and the homicide rate 'surged' in 2015; https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/us/murder-crime-fbi.html . So it has to be one or the other. Do you even read your own paper?
Refugees 'are the most meticulously vetted people to cross our borders.' ??? You just stated that 'About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law' earlier in the article, obviously a number of the illegal immigrants are refugees, so again it has to be one or the other.
Some refugees have proven to be terrorists, some involved in mass shootings in spite of the 'meticulous vetting', and an even bigger problem appears to be the children of some of the immigrants. I will accept the fact that the level of violence appears to be no higher than that of the rest of population, but the question that you need to ask the American people is how many such incidents by immigrants are tolerable? You can't paint this as a no risk issue as immigrants from the recently banned countries have been involved in about four terrorists incidents in Europe, and we do have an imperfect vetting system.
Get the 'facts' straight.
The NYT has spent a lot ink pushing the 'fact' that shootings are increasing, especially mass shootings, and the homicide rate 'surged' in 2015; https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/us/murder-crime-fbi.html . So it has to be one or the other. Do you even read your own paper?
Refugees 'are the most meticulously vetted people to cross our borders.' ??? You just stated that 'About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law' earlier in the article, obviously a number of the illegal immigrants are refugees, so again it has to be one or the other.
Some refugees have proven to be terrorists, some involved in mass shootings in spite of the 'meticulous vetting', and an even bigger problem appears to be the children of some of the immigrants. I will accept the fact that the level of violence appears to be no higher than that of the rest of population, but the question that you need to ask the American people is how many such incidents by immigrants are tolerable? You can't paint this as a no risk issue as immigrants from the recently banned countries have been involved in about four terrorists incidents in Europe, and we do have an imperfect vetting system.
Get the 'facts' straight.
21
Agree. Let's start with fining Trump who just now got a lot of H1-B visas for workers for his Trump Vineyard.
6
Joining protests just alienates swing voters who vote in swing states like myself. Protesters hold signs like "all lives are legal". The implication is that we have to take in whoever chooses to move here. Sanctuary cities and open borders are policies that disgust the mainstream. I am not interested in the sob stories from illegals who've had multiple hearings and histories of gang activity (and of course they deny it!). I am happy to see illegal parents being deported as this sends the sign that you can't just illegally cross our borders, have a child and benefit from our welfare programs.
While the Times pretends that the only objection to Muslim refugees is potential terrorism, the reality is that refugees from places like Somalia and Yemen tend to be low skilled and costly to the US taxpayer for more than a decade. Gone are the days when refugees were Soviet Jews. And stop condescending to tell me "who we are." And stop acting like a poem on a giant statue is in the bill of rights- it's just some poem! I am proudly someone who believes in justice and enforcing the law for all. And I am who we are! Not your bogus headlines. I am, and the proof is that the GOP controls 2/3 of state legislatures, govenors, the house, the senate and the presidency. I voted for Obama twice, but I'm not voting Dem again until Dems strongly condemn Soros funded far left groups who run around holding signs in praise of open borders. The only migrants we need today are highly skilled ones.
While the Times pretends that the only objection to Muslim refugees is potential terrorism, the reality is that refugees from places like Somalia and Yemen tend to be low skilled and costly to the US taxpayer for more than a decade. Gone are the days when refugees were Soviet Jews. And stop condescending to tell me "who we are." And stop acting like a poem on a giant statue is in the bill of rights- it's just some poem! I am proudly someone who believes in justice and enforcing the law for all. And I am who we are! Not your bogus headlines. I am, and the proof is that the GOP controls 2/3 of state legislatures, govenors, the house, the senate and the presidency. I voted for Obama twice, but I'm not voting Dem again until Dems strongly condemn Soros funded far left groups who run around holding signs in praise of open borders. The only migrants we need today are highly skilled ones.
26
Trump campaigned on the promise that he would rid the country of "bad hombres" but ICE is now deporting mothers and authorized workers plus submitting people to immigration checks.
I understand the position of those who fear that their jobs are going to undocumented refugees, but they've been flim-flammed. The jobs they want are never coming back — they're going to the large corporations which run them by robotized machinery while the immigrants work as maids, janitors, convenience store clerks and other service jobs that most of the complainers would view as too demeaning.
I understand the position of those who fear that their jobs are going to undocumented refugees, but they've been flim-flammed. The jobs they want are never coming back — they're going to the large corporations which run them by robotized machinery while the immigrants work as maids, janitors, convenience store clerks and other service jobs that most of the complainers would view as too demeaning.
5
Every single person who is in our country illegally knows that they violated our laws when they came here. They are, by definition, criminals.
No one in the Trump administration has said they are "anti-immigrant." They have repeatedly stated they are anti ILLEGAL immigration. They are different things.
This is another trope put out by news organizations like The Times who distort statements, leave out relevant information and piece together "alternate facts" to create a story that follows their agenda.
This is what the public recognize as "fake news."
No one in the Trump administration has said they are "anti-immigrant." They have repeatedly stated they are anti ILLEGAL immigration. They are different things.
This is another trope put out by news organizations like The Times who distort statements, leave out relevant information and piece together "alternate facts" to create a story that follows their agenda.
This is what the public recognize as "fake news."
24
I just want to thank the NYT wholeheartedly for these lunatic editorials extolling illegal aliens. Since even the most clueless amongst us realize that the NYT is little more than a mouthpiece of the national democratic party, you are making it easier for people to avoid voting for the dems until they are extinct.
Please, NYT, keep pushing this psychotic open borders agenda, with loads of daily sob stories of illegals - none of which interests those who can think for themselves or will sway our opinion in the least - and doing the excellent job driving the conservative agenda over the top each and every election moving forward.
The dems have the least control in their history, and at this rate, will hopefully not even exist in 5-10 years. Thank you NYT, keep doing what you're doing!
Please, NYT, keep pushing this psychotic open borders agenda, with loads of daily sob stories of illegals - none of which interests those who can think for themselves or will sway our opinion in the least - and doing the excellent job driving the conservative agenda over the top each and every election moving forward.
The dems have the least control in their history, and at this rate, will hopefully not even exist in 5-10 years. Thank you NYT, keep doing what you're doing!
28
For vast numbers of average law abiding Americans, it is a breath of fresh air to have a president that promises to enforce our immigration laws.
Unlike the New York Times, many people believe that illegal aliens, who are openly, voluntarily and deliberately breaking our immigration laws, do not deserve some special protected status.
People who are here illegally should have trouble sleeping at night and be concerned about being deported. If they want to alleviate that fear then they can openly and voluntarily self deport and return to their home countries.
It would be refreshing if the New York Times would recognize that there are a lot of other legal Americans that are more deserving of their concern and compassion than the illegal immigrants they fawn over.
Unlike the New York Times, many people believe that illegal aliens, who are openly, voluntarily and deliberately breaking our immigration laws, do not deserve some special protected status.
People who are here illegally should have trouble sleeping at night and be concerned about being deported. If they want to alleviate that fear then they can openly and voluntarily self deport and return to their home countries.
It would be refreshing if the New York Times would recognize that there are a lot of other legal Americans that are more deserving of their concern and compassion than the illegal immigrants they fawn over.
28
He must follow his repeated promise: "march'em across the Rio Grande", now. His hero, Andrew Jackson, "trail of tears", Jackson is the model. 11 million could be marched, one time, with life-jackets, across the river.
I can imagine Trump standing on a Sherman Tank at the boarder directing illegals across the river by screaming at women and children to "go home to Mexico".
I can imagine Trump standing on a Sherman Tank at the boarder directing illegals across the river by screaming at women and children to "go home to Mexico".
3
States and cities are freer to act. Many recognize the dangerously anti-American mood and are striving to protect their immigrant populations. They are refusing to allow their police officers to join deportation dragnets, and are readying legal representation and other aid for immigrants. The Trump administration falsely calls these places “sanctuary city” lawbreakers and threatens to withhold federal funding as punishment.
===========================
Officials in "sanctuary cities" (actually nullification cities - Calhoun would be proud) are actively engaged in breaking the law:
8 USC 1324 Bringing in and harboring certain aliens
A) Any person who—
(iii) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation;
(v)
(I) engages in any conspiracy to commit any of the preceding acts, or
(II) aids or abets the commission of any of the preceding acts,
shall be punished as provided in subparagraph (B).
(B) A person who violates subparagraph (A) shall, for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs—
(ii) in the case of a violation of subparagraph (A)(ii), (iii), (iv), or (v)(II), be fined under title 18, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both;
===========================
Officials in "sanctuary cities" (actually nullification cities - Calhoun would be proud) are actively engaged in breaking the law:
8 USC 1324 Bringing in and harboring certain aliens
A) Any person who—
(iii) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation;
(v)
(I) engages in any conspiracy to commit any of the preceding acts, or
(II) aids or abets the commission of any of the preceding acts,
shall be punished as provided in subparagraph (B).
(B) A person who violates subparagraph (A) shall, for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs—
(ii) in the case of a violation of subparagraph (A)(ii), (iii), (iv), or (v)(II), be fined under title 18, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both;
11
As a French citizen, I would like the French government to back a petition to demand the recuperation of the Statue of Liberty. This 'gift' from France to the United States no longer has any reason to remain in its present location : the current regime and it a good majority of its citizens have shown their true colours in the wake of the disgraceful and xenophobic travel ban which Trump is imposing upon refugees solely on the basis of their religious affiliation. The United States is definitely on the road to becoming a disdained pariah state, evoking Apartheid era South Africa.
4
As best as I can tell, Trump is applying the language of existing statutes of DACA to evaluate who can stay or be deported. These statutes are Obama statutes. The notion of "fear"is hardly quantifiable. On this basis alone, your hyperventilating about Trump is shallow. When you thrust in language like white supremacy you lose credibility.
19
Americans don't have anti-immigrant fever, we have illegal alien indigestion.
28
The illegal aliens are not innocents abroad. The article lies and incorrectly states that they are not criminals when by definition and all reason and legality there are exactly that; criminals. They are here knowingly, willingly, conspiratorially, and with intent breaking our immigration laws every second they breath in this nation. NYT/WAPO/MSNBC and Obama can lie all day and call them immigrants but that is an incorrect description. Why do the dems want 16-20 million, the actual numbers, of illegal aliens in the United States? Do they not realize this takes jobs from Americans, lowers the wage scale, and puts massive burdens on our medical system and our welfare system. Why do you want them here? Two reasons;1. to be your low paid indentured servants to mow your lawns, clean you houses, and cook your meals
2. the dems want to give all amnesty, get them hooked up to the gov't freebie machine, and ensure their loyalty to the party of freebies, the dems, thus ensuring a single party hegemony in perpetuity.
Your position is unlawful, Unconstitutional, and bordering on treason.
2. the dems want to give all amnesty, get them hooked up to the gov't freebie machine, and ensure their loyalty to the party of freebies, the dems, thus ensuring a single party hegemony in perpetuity.
Your position is unlawful, Unconstitutional, and bordering on treason.
24
"Breaking the Anti-Immigrant Fever"
Will the Editorial Board of the New York Times ever begin to use the English language properly when they write about American immigration? By now anyone who has read any article in this paper concerning immigration knows the agenda of the New York Times. There are however those people who read this paper, through no fault of their own, who honestly believe that the United States is anti-immigrant. That is wrong and that "wrongness" is fostered by the Editorial Board.
Facts don't lie even though the Editorial Board tries their best to obfuscate the truth by manipulation of the language. The United States accepts more LEGAL immigrants each and every year than any country on earth. The majority of those LEGAL immigrants accepted by the United States are people of color. There is NO anti-immigrant fever in the United States. At best there is an anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant movement in the United States. The same as there would be an anti-trespasser movement if homeless Americans started forcing their way into occupied houses.
Will the Editorial Board of the New York Times ever begin to use the English language properly when they write about American immigration? By now anyone who has read any article in this paper concerning immigration knows the agenda of the New York Times. There are however those people who read this paper, through no fault of their own, who honestly believe that the United States is anti-immigrant. That is wrong and that "wrongness" is fostered by the Editorial Board.
Facts don't lie even though the Editorial Board tries their best to obfuscate the truth by manipulation of the language. The United States accepts more LEGAL immigrants each and every year than any country on earth. The majority of those LEGAL immigrants accepted by the United States are people of color. There is NO anti-immigrant fever in the United States. At best there is an anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant movement in the United States. The same as there would be an anti-trespasser movement if homeless Americans started forcing their way into occupied houses.
29
I prefer the Obama model. Pay a penalty fee. Get to the back of the line. Problem solved.
1
SOMEONE POSTED:
Tearing parents and grandparents from their American born children and grandchildren is sociopathic, immoral and unethical.
Well who created the situation? The illegal aliens who decided to break the law. But it's nonsense that it is the US government "tearing" famililes apart. The US does force people to remain in this country. The American born kids and grand kids can follow their parents and grandparent home when they're deported. If the deported country won't allow in the kids again it's the illegal aliens who created the situation no law abiding US citizens or the US government.
Tearing parents and grandparents from their American born children and grandchildren is sociopathic, immoral and unethical.
Well who created the situation? The illegal aliens who decided to break the law. But it's nonsense that it is the US government "tearing" famililes apart. The US does force people to remain in this country. The American born kids and grand kids can follow their parents and grandparent home when they're deported. If the deported country won't allow in the kids again it's the illegal aliens who created the situation no law abiding US citizens or the US government.
22
One good thing is that if somebody thinks the news is fake, they would be hard pressed to call an opinion fake... and this is a good opinion piece.
1
By championing the "rights" of illegal immigrants, the NY Times shows its extreme disdain for immigrants who came here legally and all other American citizens. The spectacle of street protesters going to airports or our streets to compel Americans to accept illegal immigration, or the immigration of those who may pose a threat to national security, does not contrast favorably with the Trump administration's sober efforts to secure our border with Mexico and to institute a more rigorous vetting process for individuals coming from countries that have been terrorist strongholds.
Warning to Democrats and progressives: You will lose the American people – if you haven’t lost them already - if you persist in casting those who support these security measures as white supremacists. Sure, this plays well among readers of the NY Times, who are comfortable in their liberal enclaves, and value their “virtue through good intentions” over the security of the nation. But it does not play well among regular voters, including a large segment of Hillary voters who would have voted for any Republican but Trump, but now will be encouraged to vote for Trump himself. Additional memo: a recent poll shows that 73% of Americans want Democrats to work cooperatively with Trump, not undermine him. So, take warning.
Warning to Democrats and progressives: You will lose the American people – if you haven’t lost them already - if you persist in casting those who support these security measures as white supremacists. Sure, this plays well among readers of the NY Times, who are comfortable in their liberal enclaves, and value their “virtue through good intentions” over the security of the nation. But it does not play well among regular voters, including a large segment of Hillary voters who would have voted for any Republican but Trump, but now will be encouraged to vote for Trump himself. Additional memo: a recent poll shows that 73% of Americans want Democrats to work cooperatively with Trump, not undermine him. So, take warning.
23
When we punt the workers who pick the fruit and vegetables in California, will
the jobs be done by citizens, or will we simply find it cheaper to import food?
How will that impact the farming communities?
When the meat packing plants don't have immigrant workers, will Americans take the jobs, will wages rise, or will we import our meat from China?
When we deport all of the people mowing laws and doing landscaping, will we get Americans hired to do the jobs at good wages, or will people just stop buying landscaping services because they cannot afford them?
The reality is that immigration, wages, jobs, imports and consumer demand are complex and intertwined. So we might increase jobs for some Americans, but we might also reduce demand for the products because they become more expensive. A decrease in contracts to build walls, decreases the sales in building supplies. There is a multiplier effect.
So in reality, other than being able to pat ourselves on the back for upholding the law, the most likely law we really uphold will be that of unforeseen consequences.
the jobs be done by citizens, or will we simply find it cheaper to import food?
How will that impact the farming communities?
When the meat packing plants don't have immigrant workers, will Americans take the jobs, will wages rise, or will we import our meat from China?
When we deport all of the people mowing laws and doing landscaping, will we get Americans hired to do the jobs at good wages, or will people just stop buying landscaping services because they cannot afford them?
The reality is that immigration, wages, jobs, imports and consumer demand are complex and intertwined. So we might increase jobs for some Americans, but we might also reduce demand for the products because they become more expensive. A decrease in contracts to build walls, decreases the sales in building supplies. There is a multiplier effect.
So in reality, other than being able to pat ourselves on the back for upholding the law, the most likely law we really uphold will be that of unforeseen consequences.
4
I'm all for fixing the problem of undocumented immigrants. None of the comments, though, seem to address the real issue. Rather than going after the individuals, why not go after the businesses who hire them?
11
If Trump is trying to protect Americans why isn't he doing something to prevent mass murders done by American citizens? Many many more people are killed every year by these mass murderers than by immigrants.
3
I like immigration if it is legal. When you have millions of people here illegally, it is not immigration but an invasion.
22
It's not anti-immigrant. It's anti-ILLEGAL immigrant. Big difference. Don't try to pretend it isn't.
21
Has the Times decided not to distinguish between documented immigrants and undocumented immigrants? We do have an immigration process and there are millions of individuals who have gone through that process and who are now citizens. And there are millions more who are going through that process now.
You do a huge disservice when you ignore this important difference. Many of us want a society based on law, including immigration law, and that is not an anti-immigrant position.
You do a huge disservice when you ignore this important difference. Many of us want a society based on law, including immigration law, and that is not an anti-immigrant position.
23
He reminded me yesterday of the Japanese holdouts who hid out on Pacific Islands -- some of them for decades -- after World War II because they refused to surrender or didn’t know the war was over. Those men were widely respected and sympathized with when they came out of hiding. This time there will be a great clamor for him and his hangers-on to go back into hiding.
2
Trump's a bad person but not because of the reason stated here. Like it or not most Americans don't support amnesty or open borders.
Many blue collar people resent the elitist attitudes displayed here by so many commentators. In their world, no one works as a painter or a gardener so it's okay to import lots of foreign nationals to do those jobs instead. In their world it's completely moral to drive someone out of business or a job merely so you can save five dollars on the cost of installing your water heater.
Stop dismissing blue collar workers and their very valid concerns or you will not win another election for generations.
Many blue collar people resent the elitist attitudes displayed here by so many commentators. In their world, no one works as a painter or a gardener so it's okay to import lots of foreign nationals to do those jobs instead. In their world it's completely moral to drive someone out of business or a job merely so you can save five dollars on the cost of installing your water heater.
Stop dismissing blue collar workers and their very valid concerns or you will not win another election for generations.
24
You refer to our "American Identity ". We are a country and a society based on laws. When you break the law their are serious consequences. The illegal 11 million are well aware that they broke the law. They are well aware that they have hurt the influx of millions of immigrants entering the country the legal way. In essence they chose to cut in line and justified the choice because their situation was so how worse than the family entering the legal way. Now, you want reward them?
21
This editorial reads like an Onion satire of an elite media illegal immigrant editorial
It would be hilarious if it weren't true
It would be hilarious if it weren't true
25
Let's not forget that the Founding Father of amnesty, Ronald Reagan, set the precedent for how America handles this problem. He let them all stay, and with the stroke of his pen made the "illegals" legal.
4
RE: About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law.
US citizens don't get to pick and choose which laws to obey neither should illegal aliens. 7 or 8 billion people in the world many living in bad circumstances but the answer is not for all those people or even a fraction of them (millions and millions and millions) to come to the US.
Steve Bannon was right the media has no idea why Trump is president. And they'll probably never will figure it out.
US citizens don't get to pick and choose which laws to obey neither should illegal aliens. 7 or 8 billion people in the world many living in bad circumstances but the answer is not for all those people or even a fraction of them (millions and millions and millions) to come to the US.
Steve Bannon was right the media has no idea why Trump is president. And they'll probably never will figure it out.
28
How about the employers who employ people without legal documentation?
How about going after them? Then they would have to pay more to hire others to do the work. Then prices would go up. Then many would be upset.
The hypocrisy of using immigrant labor and scapegoating them is sickening.
How about going after them? Then they would have to pay more to hire others to do the work. Then prices would go up. Then many would be upset.
The hypocrisy of using immigrant labor and scapegoating them is sickening.
62
Perhaps the phrase "Fake News" is not appropriate to comment on this op-ed by NY Times Editorial Board, since this is only their opinion of assumptions of how an entire immigrant population in the US feel. However, they are deliberately misrepresenting President Trump's sentiment of the entire immigrant population as though all are "illegal and criminal".
The paragraph below substantiates how the NY Times Editorial Board continues to falsify the opinion of information as fact by using the term "all" repeatedly:
"About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law. Suddenly, by presidential decree, all are deportation priorities, all are supposed criminals, all are threatened with broken lives, along with members of their families. The end could come for them any time.
This is not an abstract or fanciful depiction. It is not fake news. It’s the United States of today, this month, this morning".
Perhaps the NY Times Editorial Board should really learn from the DNC's mistakes and listen to what people are actually saying rather than formulate their assumption of what people are saying, because if the NYTEB is attempting to actually help people their assumptions may just have the adverse effect on the basis of their incorrect assumptions to willfully support their view point.
The paragraph below substantiates how the NY Times Editorial Board continues to falsify the opinion of information as fact by using the term "all" repeatedly:
"About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law. Suddenly, by presidential decree, all are deportation priorities, all are supposed criminals, all are threatened with broken lives, along with members of their families. The end could come for them any time.
This is not an abstract or fanciful depiction. It is not fake news. It’s the United States of today, this month, this morning".
Perhaps the NY Times Editorial Board should really learn from the DNC's mistakes and listen to what people are actually saying rather than formulate their assumption of what people are saying, because if the NYTEB is attempting to actually help people their assumptions may just have the adverse effect on the basis of their incorrect assumptions to willfully support their view point.
18
So - once again - because it constantly seems to elude the Grey Lady's editorial board.
Most Americans are not against legal immigration.
They are against illegal immigration and financial refugee claims.
And just in passing - they also think it is a good idea that when you become an American citizen that you no longer practice most of the abhorrent and destructive tenets of your culture or religion that were acceptable in your prior country.
Most Americans are not against legal immigration.
They are against illegal immigration and financial refugee claims.
And just in passing - they also think it is a good idea that when you become an American citizen that you no longer practice most of the abhorrent and destructive tenets of your culture or religion that were acceptable in your prior country.
24
People who entered the US without complying with immigration laws are, by definition, criminals. They have violated the law and are subject to penalties. The NYT's charecterization of these people as not criminals is patently false and misleading.
19
Not sure what exactly your argument is.
Criminals that have broken our laws and are here illegally are worried we might actually enforce our immigration laws? They worry and are scared of being caught, so, what? We should not enforce our immigration laws?
Let them worry.
Let them self-deport.
We must make it impossible for them to work illegally with strong penalties for employer and employee.
For good measure, we must alter our laws so that you gain US citizenship when born here only if your parents are here legally.
Illegal immigration must stop.
Criminals that have broken our laws and are here illegally are worried we might actually enforce our immigration laws? They worry and are scared of being caught, so, what? We should not enforce our immigration laws?
Let them worry.
Let them self-deport.
We must make it impossible for them to work illegally with strong penalties for employer and employee.
For good measure, we must alter our laws so that you gain US citizenship when born here only if your parents are here legally.
Illegal immigration must stop.
28
There are people who believe that there is real danger in allowing undocumented immigrants to enter the country. There's some truth in this outlook, even if, overall, immigrants are a "boon."
Let those of us who oppose President Trump and his cruel policies concentrate on a real solution that brings the 11 million out of the shadows. Only then can the extremists in ICE and other law enforcement agencies be controlled
Let those of us who oppose President Trump and his cruel policies concentrate on a real solution that brings the 11 million out of the shadows. Only then can the extremists in ICE and other law enforcement agencies be controlled
2
"Honest Journalism" is the Times claim but the headline "Anti-Immigrant" is dishonest.
Most Americans support legal immigration and oppose illegal immigration.
Most Americans support legal immigration and oppose illegal immigration.
24
If we don't compare Trump era with Hitler's era we'll do a disservice to the millions of perished souls, mainly Jews under Hitler's rule.
Yes, Trump's action to ban immigration from certain countries while leaving other Muslims begs the question, "Is he a Muslim hater ?"
The answer is both.
The Muslims who pay him big amounts of money or donate land no income taxes, Trump loves them from the bottom of his heart ignoring the fact that 19 or 20 Muslim citizens from those countries like Saudi Arabia,Egypt,U.A.E. ans Lebanon came to our land. And was wined and dined and kept in well furnished safe houses while they learned how to fly commercial jetliners but not how to land them.
What happened after each and every Americans knows.
They blew up 2 of our majestic towers with thousands of people working in the same buildings including our brave police officers and first responders who worked without two-way radios because then Mayor Giuliani refused to give them deliberately.
And even though none of Trump's buildings had any damage, this con man of a president took advantage of the free money that our Govt. was doling out to the businesses who suffered any damages due to the falling of those towers.
Yes, it is the same Trump, who along with all the Republicans want to do welfare reforms because they think lot of people who're on welfare are abusing the system as they don't deserve, had taken our taxpayers blood and tears soaked 'free money' which is called nothing but 'dole'.
Yes, Trump's action to ban immigration from certain countries while leaving other Muslims begs the question, "Is he a Muslim hater ?"
The answer is both.
The Muslims who pay him big amounts of money or donate land no income taxes, Trump loves them from the bottom of his heart ignoring the fact that 19 or 20 Muslim citizens from those countries like Saudi Arabia,Egypt,U.A.E. ans Lebanon came to our land. And was wined and dined and kept in well furnished safe houses while they learned how to fly commercial jetliners but not how to land them.
What happened after each and every Americans knows.
They blew up 2 of our majestic towers with thousands of people working in the same buildings including our brave police officers and first responders who worked without two-way radios because then Mayor Giuliani refused to give them deliberately.
And even though none of Trump's buildings had any damage, this con man of a president took advantage of the free money that our Govt. was doling out to the businesses who suffered any damages due to the falling of those towers.
Yes, it is the same Trump, who along with all the Republicans want to do welfare reforms because they think lot of people who're on welfare are abusing the system as they don't deserve, had taken our taxpayers blood and tears soaked 'free money' which is called nothing but 'dole'.
I'm getting out those "what if Hitler won" and "what if the South had won" stories to check their work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_the_South_Had_Won_the_Civil_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_Axis_victory_in_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_the_South_Had_Won_the_Civil_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_Axis_victory_in_World_War_II
Last night at a friend's home for dinner, with a couple I didn't know, politics came up. The husband, with a strong accent, made it clear that while he felt President Trump had been unprepared for the backlash, he agreed that illegal line-cutters should not be here.
He waited 9 years for his green card, has been here for over 30 years, and said there's no country greater than America- but also, that there's no country on earth that would allow so many millions of illegals to stay.
He waited 9 years for his green card, has been here for over 30 years, and said there's no country greater than America- but also, that there's no country on earth that would allow so many millions of illegals to stay.
30
Check my blog at https://irpnetgb.wordpress.com/2017/02/18/immigrants-are-a-good-thing/ which tells the REAL (and my) story about immigration and how it has affected me, my city and my country.
1
Who are you going to believe, the president of the US, moral arbiter of the free world, or the facts? It's time to dust off and re- read Orwell, as quickly as you possibly can!
1
You need another column to clarify your position. Please explain the difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration. They are not the same thing and you seem to equate the two as being similar. Most people in America are not against legal immigration...our ancestors were legal immigrants. The overwhelming majority of Americans are against illegal immigration. Either we have borders or we don't. Either people obey the law or they don't. The Anti-Illegal Immigrant Fever is never going to break....why should it? So which is it? Do you favor Illegal Immigration or Legal Immigration? You are muddying the waters with this column.
21
This is a terrible problem that we have stuck our head in the sand about for years. It has many parts such as securing our boarders, revamping our visa system and tracking those here on a visa, dealing with the people already here illegally, dealing with underage children whose parents are here illegally and dealing with people who were brought here as young children. While doing all this we must keep our values as a society and keep a economy running that depends on cheap labor. No President can do this alone, especially trump. No wall will solve it and executive orders will not help. Congress needs to sit down like adults with immigrate groups and work this out. Take their head out of the sand!
6
In the Post this morning, "Homeland Security Secretary John F. Kelly has signed sweeping new guidelines that empower federal authorities to more aggressively detain and deport illegal immigrants inside the United States and at the border." He's all-in.
I'm terrified. I cannot stomach what is happening to our country. This isn't a liberal or conservative issue. This is about human rights.
I'm terrified. I cannot stomach what is happening to our country. This isn't a liberal or conservative issue. This is about human rights.
3
Why can the NYT not include " illegal" with "immigrants" in the discussion?
Virtually no one is against immigration or immigrants. Our problem is with "illegal immigration."
By always dropping the "illegal" you make a false argument.
More " fake news?"
Virtually no one is against immigration or immigrants. Our problem is with "illegal immigration."
By always dropping the "illegal" you make a false argument.
More " fake news?"
22
In Arizona, this is well worn territory. Demonstrators are all Hispanic or the usual liberal activists. This is about how we address the issue, not about whether illegals should be deported. Regular white people need to march and say this is not how it's done.
5
What is not fantasy is your flippant remark " About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law."
Precisely what do you propose to do about that?
Precisely what do you propose to do about that?
13
Republicans are pro-immigrant and pro-immigration. Progressive liberal Marxist democrats are racist anti-Americans who are pro-invasion by illegal immigrants. The root of the progressive liberal Marxist democrat cause is overthrow of the government using "undocumented democrats."
Immigration is wonderful, but there are practical and legal limits. The question and problem is why are progressive liberal Marxist democrats so hell-bent on destroying the USA. Democratism is the new communism and Americans are disgusted with it.
Immigration is wonderful, but there are practical and legal limits. The question and problem is why are progressive liberal Marxist democrats so hell-bent on destroying the USA. Democratism is the new communism and Americans are disgusted with it.
15
The fundamental question is can we have both justice and mercy? We are dealing with 11 million human beings each with a personal story of how and why they came to America. Too many Americans demand a strict and hasty enforcement of our immigration law that leaves no room for mercy or even serious scrutiny of individual cases that come before the immigration courts.
4
Here's an idea, advocate for more aid to the immigrant exporting countries in order to make their countries more liveable, so that the would be immigrant has opportunities at home and a reason to stay at home and not come illegally to the US. Illegal Immigration to the US will not solve the world's problems, and will surely enable the spreading of these problems to the US.
4
Attacking President Trump and his immigration policies is what energized support to get elected, polarizes the country, and strengthens Trump's supporters. There is no easy way to deal with deporting illegal immigrants with criminal records, and clearly there will be isolated casualties around the edges with examples you cherry picked. What about bulk of the examples you excluded where dangerous criminals were deported because of these raids? If these raids picked up just one criminal that will save just one American life, just one American woman from being raped, just one injury due to a terrorist attack..would you still not do it?
According to poll on DebateIsland.com 85% agree with Trump immigration policies and raids, and 62% believe it's just a start.
http://www.debateisland.com/discussion/367/do-you-agree-with-trumps-immi...
You are not taking into consideration that these people are here illegally, and we need decisive action to deal with this growing problem. Starting with those that have a criminal record is a logical approach.
I also don't appreciate how you cloud your argument implying that Trump's policies are against immigrants. They are not. This country is built on immigrants, and plenty valuable members of our society migrated legally to now make a big difference in what shaped America today. Trump and his supporters think that's great, but please don't bundle that will illegal immigration issue, especially as it relates to criminals.
According to poll on DebateIsland.com 85% agree with Trump immigration policies and raids, and 62% believe it's just a start.
http://www.debateisland.com/discussion/367/do-you-agree-with-trumps-immi...
You are not taking into consideration that these people are here illegally, and we need decisive action to deal with this growing problem. Starting with those that have a criminal record is a logical approach.
I also don't appreciate how you cloud your argument implying that Trump's policies are against immigrants. They are not. This country is built on immigrants, and plenty valuable members of our society migrated legally to now make a big difference in what shaped America today. Trump and his supporters think that's great, but please don't bundle that will illegal immigration issue, especially as it relates to criminals.
21
Holding the employers of undocumented workers responsible for deportation costs for past hiring decisions would take a lot of steam out of the anti-immigration movement. Yes, it's a game of chicken where immigrants could find it harder to get jobs in the future, but that will happen anyway. Let it be known that if immigration laws are to be applied retroactively, then ALL participants must be held accountable, rich or poor.
5
Because of articles like this one, Trump is allowed to get away with lies and misdeeds. Because the NYT can say things repeatedly wrong and misleading, such as Clinton has a 89% to 92% probability of winning the election, and get away with it, Trump's supporters will let Trump say many things that are inconsistent with the facts, and get away with it. Until the NYT, and other MSM can regain the trust of the moderates who swung votes in Trump's favor, continue to expect a huge portion of Americans to simply fall back on the law, and the rule of law, and anyone, including Trump, who is willing to enforce the law, for lack of any trustworthy alternative. The media has proven that it is not a trustworthy alternative.
12
NYT, you are still out of touch with the average person. More than that, do you or don't you believe in laws that govern immigration to the US? If not, why not simply advocate open borders. Yes, lives are being disrupted. But that is the price of deciding to stay in a country when you are not supposed to be there forever. For all Trump's bad decisions, seriousness about enforcing immigration laws is a good thing.
22
I am a brown skinned and of Muslim descent. One of the side effects of unlimited immigration is a breakdown of cohesion in society. It may be that the oligarchs in the world want to break down cohesiveness so they can continue with the real crime.......impoverishment of billions so a few thousand can become even richer. We are seeing this in the US and now Germany. A great example of the results or cohesion and lack of it would be meatpacking. Once being a meat cutter was a way to a decent income with benefits. The union was powerful and benefits were maintained. Then Iowa Beef Packers and others figured out how to precut the meat in large factories in the farm areas using immigrant labor.......much of it illegal. They destroyed the occupation to the level that we now say it is work Americans won't do. Plenty of Americans were doing it when it was union. Rinse and repeat with software, farm work, cooking, cleaning, doctoring, H1B you name it. Illegal immigrants and too many destroy societal cohesion.
24
To all those who support the President's policy, a simple question (or two): Is ICE using testimony from the immigrants they "capture and hold" to go after the businesses who hire the undocumented? If not, why not? Are they not just as guilty, just as deserving of public scorn?
Unfair!
Unfair!
7
The haters (i.e Trump voters) will be happy when the government breaks down doors to throw out families.
They can wave the flag and strut like peacocks, but I hope they don't believe that their lives will improve, because Trump will come for them next.
Who will they blame then?
They can wave the flag and strut like peacocks, but I hope they don't believe that their lives will improve, because Trump will come for them next.
Who will they blame then?
9
Illegal immigration across our southern border will stop only when the economies of our southern neighbors become like our own. Case in point; You don't see people pouring across our northern border, do you? We have all heard it said before, its the economy, stupid. Equalize it and the immigration problems go away. Until then, I stand with our Mexican/Latino friends, and I will march for you. I am an American military veteran who fought for the rights of all, without discrimination toward anyone. I will not let you down.
7
"About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law."
Yes, we know. We've been trying to hold them accountable for decades. Judgement time is upon them now.
Yes, we know. We've been trying to hold them accountable for decades. Judgement time is upon them now.
22
As the mainstream media tends to do, the purposely conflate legal and illegal immigration. The "fever" concerns illegal immigration. Deport all 11-12-13-14 million of them.
20
this editorial briefly mentions 6 questionable cases out of, presumably, thousands. is it not a far greater concern when an illegal immigrant commits a crime in America?
19
If the GOP genuinely were serious about wanting to stop illegal immigration, they'd target the # 1 reason causing the problem: American law-breakers who hire them.
13
How disturbing and absurd. The NYT puts a leftist spin on everything and tries through repetition to convince readers that illegally entering this country is OK.
It's not!
Calling illegal immigration unauthorized immigration is false and misleading - The NYT version of fake news.
The hollowed out Democratic party full of the leftist internationalist fringe will continue to be beaten back in the election booth because of the anger they generate in the middle class. Controlling immigration is a key issue, and was the single issue that threw the middle class into the Trump camp.
Keep it coming NYT, your hypocrisy and lack of rational thought will only harden and enlarge the opposition. Trump thanks you! I thank you!
It's not!
Calling illegal immigration unauthorized immigration is false and misleading - The NYT version of fake news.
The hollowed out Democratic party full of the leftist internationalist fringe will continue to be beaten back in the election booth because of the anger they generate in the middle class. Controlling immigration is a key issue, and was the single issue that threw the middle class into the Trump camp.
Keep it coming NYT, your hypocrisy and lack of rational thought will only harden and enlarge the opposition. Trump thanks you! I thank you!
35
There is a lot of arrogance in the pro-immigration group, I assume nobody in that group has relatives who work production jobs. The immigration boom has killed of union labor and kept wages low. If we want immigration, lets include a higher minimum wage and laws that help unions grow.
27
I'm no Trump supporter, but this is just the sort of thing that builds support for Donald Trump.
There is a big difference between being anti-immigrant and opposing illegal immigration, and by disingenuously blurring the difference you adopt the mirror image of the tactics used by Trump himself.
Illegal immigrants are a boon? Really? Tell that to the people, disproportionately poor and black or legal immigrants themselves, who have lost their jobs to them, or had their wages driven down, or to the victims of identity theft, or the children who, through no fault of their own, have been raised as Americans but now face deportation or the expulsion of a parent.
I'm a liberal of Hispanic descent and I'm as scared as anyone of what's happening to this country: if this editorial sets my teeth on edge, imagine what it does to those who don't share my liberal views? The Times has done great work in standing up to Trump, and it is a shame to see its influence diminished by editorials like this.
There is a big difference between being anti-immigrant and opposing illegal immigration, and by disingenuously blurring the difference you adopt the mirror image of the tactics used by Trump himself.
Illegal immigrants are a boon? Really? Tell that to the people, disproportionately poor and black or legal immigrants themselves, who have lost their jobs to them, or had their wages driven down, or to the victims of identity theft, or the children who, through no fault of their own, have been raised as Americans but now face deportation or the expulsion of a parent.
I'm a liberal of Hispanic descent and I'm as scared as anyone of what's happening to this country: if this editorial sets my teeth on edge, imagine what it does to those who don't share my liberal views? The Times has done great work in standing up to Trump, and it is a shame to see its influence diminished by editorials like this.
102
That statement also irked me. Note that the author uses the word immigrant, not illegal immigrants. This is intellectually dishonest.
In the left's knee jerk response to Trump's unnuanced threats to immigrants, we are tossing all intellectual rigor out the window.
The politics of illegal immigrants has been an ethical pit for years. Neither Trump's "throw them all out" approach, or the left's "they can all stay" is right. Getting it right will require compromise. Something we are incapable of right now.
In the left's knee jerk response to Trump's unnuanced threats to immigrants, we are tossing all intellectual rigor out the window.
The politics of illegal immigrants has been an ethical pit for years. Neither Trump's "throw them all out" approach, or the left's "they can all stay" is right. Getting it right will require compromise. Something we are incapable of right now.
4
The "holier than thou" crowd is out in force today. I'll bet not one of them ever broke any little law? Let's have a new law - anyone getting pulled over for a traffic violation, or gets a photo-ticket gets sent back to where their ancestors came from.
20
I don't move to Mexico and expect to break as many of their laws as they can and still get to stay. I'm tired of hearing from foreigners that they are entitled to break our laws.
9
If you are pulled over for a traffic violation, you SHOULD get a ticket.
If you are here illegally, you should leave.
Is that so difficult for you to understand?
Of course if you are permissive about law breaking, does it follow that you are permissive about domestic violence?
It is nonsense coming from progressives which got Trump elected. A candidate with Trump's views but without the baggage of his personality would have blown Hillary out of the water. And YOU would have an enabler.
If you are here illegally, you should leave.
Is that so difficult for you to understand?
Of course if you are permissive about law breaking, does it follow that you are permissive about domestic violence?
It is nonsense coming from progressives which got Trump elected. A candidate with Trump's views but without the baggage of his personality would have blown Hillary out of the water. And YOU would have an enabler.
13
NYT board,
you call my president a liar, but look at what YOU write.
"They have tried to build honest lives here..." and further down
"About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law..."
Living outside the law IS incompatible with honest life. The honest ones applied for a residence status and followed the law.
"It is not fake news." Of course it is. You're writing that the President vilified the whole Mexico as criminals, whereas you know full well that he qualified his statement, saying "I'm sure there are good people among them."
Your hysterical cat calls fool no one but further harden the silent majority, whose power you witnessed in this election both national and local.
you call my president a liar, but look at what YOU write.
"They have tried to build honest lives here..." and further down
"About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law..."
Living outside the law IS incompatible with honest life. The honest ones applied for a residence status and followed the law.
"It is not fake news." Of course it is. You're writing that the President vilified the whole Mexico as criminals, whereas you know full well that he qualified his statement, saying "I'm sure there are good people among them."
Your hysterical cat calls fool no one but further harden the silent majority, whose power you witnessed in this election both national and local.
82
You can have "your" president, al. Now I have a name to attach to the nasty thoughts I have about those foolish enough to vote for him.
12
So now, it's "break" is it? As long as the Times dictates, what else do you want, you who are the very sentiment you espouse to despise? NO ONE appointed you or the voters you claim to represent to force anything on anyone. Do you really want a civil war again? Do you think a defense of foreigners who do not belong here except by the constant restraints you want but no one else does? It is not the job of an Editorial Board to do so. This piece is so far over the top in the 52 years I've read your paper I simply can't believe that you think this is a "moment in history". It is not Watergate or Iran Contra or the Clinton follies of the nineties. Nor is it the Bush doctrines that caused the quagmire we find ourselves in; it is a drumbeat to a demonstration to nowhere except deep hatred among a people who do not deserve it, despite your cocktail party politics. Not everyone must or even should hold your beliefs,or is that also no longer an option?
45
As a legal immigrant, I demand that you stop using the neutral term "immigrant" to describe two groups, those of us who have obeyed the law and those who have not.
To use language as you do is dishonest.
Yes, illegal immigrants are fellow human beings and deserve consideration.
It still remains the case that you are using language in a dishonest way.
To use language as you do is dishonest.
Yes, illegal immigrants are fellow human beings and deserve consideration.
It still remains the case that you are using language in a dishonest way.
84
It is interesting, isn't it, that the law calls them "illegal aliens" and the NYTimes refuses to use the term.
What part of the laws of our Nation doesn't the esteemed editorial board understand?
What part of the laws of our Nation doesn't the esteemed editorial board understand?
8
Keep advocating those open borders. And you will keep losing. You're not an immigrant if you hope a border fence or overstay a visa. You have no right to tell us how to run our society.
66
Rather than fighting costly legal battles with sanctuary cities, the federal government should just use the money it saves by cutting funding to sanctuary cities to deploy extra teams of ICE agents to sanctuary cities.
39
The stage for President Trump's "let's close our borders via extreme vetting" was set by Dubya and Cheney with their Patriot Act. The Patriot Act was allegedly set up to catch foreign terrorists crossing the Canadian border into the USA to stage another 9/11. Under the Patriot act, the US agreed to share all American citizens criminal conviction and non-criminal arrest information with the Canadians, if the Canadian authorities agreed to do the same, which they did.
In reality, what this sharing of tens of millions of North American citizens petty records does is subject tens of millions of non-violent US (and Canadian) citizens, none of whom are terrorists, to cross-border shakedowns on both sides of the border by immigration officials, where predominantly American citizens with misdemeanors, often decades old misdemeanors like protesting the Vietnam War, can be turned around at the Canadian border from going on fishing trips, trips to visit friends and relatives, or trips to do business freely in Canada.
Extreme vetting has little to do with stopping foreign terrorists but a lot to do with American authorities granting Canadian authorities the right to steal the freedom of travel rights American citizens once held to visit Canada, by subjecting Americans to double jeopardy prosecution by foreign authorities at our border. This is unconstitutional and a violation of American citizens civil rights. The present guys in Washington want to take away American freedoms.
In reality, what this sharing of tens of millions of North American citizens petty records does is subject tens of millions of non-violent US (and Canadian) citizens, none of whom are terrorists, to cross-border shakedowns on both sides of the border by immigration officials, where predominantly American citizens with misdemeanors, often decades old misdemeanors like protesting the Vietnam War, can be turned around at the Canadian border from going on fishing trips, trips to visit friends and relatives, or trips to do business freely in Canada.
Extreme vetting has little to do with stopping foreign terrorists but a lot to do with American authorities granting Canadian authorities the right to steal the freedom of travel rights American citizens once held to visit Canada, by subjecting Americans to double jeopardy prosecution by foreign authorities at our border. This is unconstitutional and a violation of American citizens civil rights. The present guys in Washington want to take away American freedoms.
2
No, It comes from the Constitution of the United States as one of the enumerated powers that immigration policy is a matter for the federal government.
When you start from a false premise, Mr. Speke, no matter how flawless your logic, your conclusion is going to be false.
When you start from a false premise, Mr. Speke, no matter how flawless your logic, your conclusion is going to be false.
3
The left allows, and sometimes even applauds, racial, cultural, or religious nationalism when it comes from their favored groups. My whole life I've witnessed how quickly black leaders rally over any perceived threat to "their community" and will go in an uproar over any perceived disrespect. Neighborhoods and cities that were once predominately white (Oakland, San Francisco, NYC, Brooklyn, Harlem) became predominately black. Now that they are becoming predominately white again there is outrage and demand the government step in to "stop the gentrification" and "preserve" the city/neighborhoods "black" character despite the fact that blacks once gentrified it and erased the cultural history of the ethnic groups who dominated that location for far longer than they did! The New York Times did an article on Hispanic activists in an LA neighborhood vandalizing and intimidating non-Hispanic business owners moving into the neighborhood that they have claimed for their own. Yet 30 years ago it was almost all white and similar behavior towards minorities moving in is still dredged up for guilt trips. Then there is the support for self determination for the Palestinians while calling people xenophobic and Islamaphobic when they object to how Islamic immigrants stifle their self determination!
What is xenophobia, racism, and anti-immigration when it's directed towards Muslims, blacks or HIspanics is applauded by the left when it's being done by these same groups towards others.
What is xenophobia, racism, and anti-immigration when it's directed towards Muslims, blacks or HIspanics is applauded by the left when it's being done by these same groups towards others.
55
The Board and the Headline writer would do well to pay more attention to the two different kinds of fever epitomized but not restricted to Donald Trump.
On the one hand we have Donald Trump's feverish focus on the 3% of us called undocumented/illegal, some large fraction of which keep America running.
On the other hand we have his highly selective anti-asylum seeker fever fixated on USCB "white-race" people from the select 7.
Are these two fever-inducing illnesses really so similar that they can be treated as if one? I don't think so.
My 1st-hand knowledge is about the 2d so I only comment on that, David Underwood has considerable 1st hand knowledge about the 1st so I listen to him and his compatriots on that subject.
As concerns Middle Eastern (ME) asylum seekers, I heard Donald Trump saying on BBC World at 02:00 h GMT today that he focuses on the 7 countries simply to keep "bad" people out. But as many have noted, the "baddest" of all in the ME are a subset of Saudis, among whom were most of the 9/11 terrorists. If Trump really wanted to keep bad people out he would be preparing a Monday morning list of 8 countries with Saudi Arabia at the top.
That's all for now. When we take his temperature as concerns his ME illness there will be plenty to say next week on that subject.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
On the one hand we have Donald Trump's feverish focus on the 3% of us called undocumented/illegal, some large fraction of which keep America running.
On the other hand we have his highly selective anti-asylum seeker fever fixated on USCB "white-race" people from the select 7.
Are these two fever-inducing illnesses really so similar that they can be treated as if one? I don't think so.
My 1st-hand knowledge is about the 2d so I only comment on that, David Underwood has considerable 1st hand knowledge about the 1st so I listen to him and his compatriots on that subject.
As concerns Middle Eastern (ME) asylum seekers, I heard Donald Trump saying on BBC World at 02:00 h GMT today that he focuses on the 7 countries simply to keep "bad" people out. But as many have noted, the "baddest" of all in the ME are a subset of Saudis, among whom were most of the 9/11 terrorists. If Trump really wanted to keep bad people out he would be preparing a Monday morning list of 8 countries with Saudi Arabia at the top.
That's all for now. When we take his temperature as concerns his ME illness there will be plenty to say next week on that subject.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
4
I used to love to read all the news that is fit to print.Time to change the Editorial Board.No Anti Immigrant fever I am an immigrant and doing ok.If you want to change the immigration system go and change the law.Never in my wildest dreams thought that the New York Times will advocate and condone lawless behavior.Definition of a moron is a person who functions at the 12 year old level.That is the name the Editors let Charles Blow call Trump.The name calling needs to stop.The false news needs to stop.Issues are plenty that are real and need to be fought for.We need immigrants but it has to be controlled.Long term law abiding people will be treated differently than criminals or thos who came here illegally 3 months ago
69
Deport the illegal alien parents and the children that they dragged into their ill-considered scheme to trespass into our country, flout our laws, and steal services intended for American citizens and those lawfully present in our country. The parents will learn nothing from being deported -- especially when illegal alien advocates tell them that THEY are the victims -- but their children will learn a valuable life lesson: cheaters never prosper.
73
Can someone explain to me how unfettered Immigration, which is the
logical conclusion of what this NY Times Editorial leads to helps:
Poor Native Born Americans.
Poor Americans who will never be hired by Cosmopolitans to be their Nannies,
Maids, Gardeners.
Poor Americans who cannot be hired for Construction Work because it is cheaper to hire Immigrants.
Poor Americans who will not be hired to work in Restaurants because Immigrants work longer hours while being paid under the table.
Poor Americans who have to compete for entry into State Colleges with
Un-Documented Immigrants.
I will be absolutely in favour of un-fettered Immigration when the
NY Times Editorial Board is "Out-Sourced" to Editors from around the World.
When I can hire Lawyers from India to defend me at 1/10th the Cost.
When I can get my Prescriptions filled by Doctors from outside the US -
Online and then buy the drugs as 1/20th the Cost.
When Silicon Valley is moved to China.
Then you may write your Editorial after you have been out of work for 6 months
and your savings are gone.
I am in favour of one last time Amnesty for the Immigrants in this country
who are un-Documented. Then seal the borders and devise a just and
fair Immigration System that puts American Citizens first.
logical conclusion of what this NY Times Editorial leads to helps:
Poor Native Born Americans.
Poor Americans who will never be hired by Cosmopolitans to be their Nannies,
Maids, Gardeners.
Poor Americans who cannot be hired for Construction Work because it is cheaper to hire Immigrants.
Poor Americans who will not be hired to work in Restaurants because Immigrants work longer hours while being paid under the table.
Poor Americans who have to compete for entry into State Colleges with
Un-Documented Immigrants.
I will be absolutely in favour of un-fettered Immigration when the
NY Times Editorial Board is "Out-Sourced" to Editors from around the World.
When I can hire Lawyers from India to defend me at 1/10th the Cost.
When I can get my Prescriptions filled by Doctors from outside the US -
Online and then buy the drugs as 1/20th the Cost.
When Silicon Valley is moved to China.
Then you may write your Editorial after you have been out of work for 6 months
and your savings are gone.
I am in favour of one last time Amnesty for the Immigrants in this country
who are un-Documented. Then seal the borders and devise a just and
fair Immigration System that puts American Citizens first.
57
Do the poor want be helped? Do the poor want to work as nannies, farm workers, construction workers, gardeners, etc.?
Anedoctal:
Ive had American gardeners. One came driving a model-year Lexus, charged me an arm and a leg, and did very sloppy work. Trimmed the shrubs but picking up the branches from the ground was additional charge.
Then I hired someone else. He was Hispanic. Charged me about the same but did a very nice work without add-ones. Extremely professional, no hidden charges and dedicated.
Anedoctal:
Ive had American gardeners. One came driving a model-year Lexus, charged me an arm and a leg, and did very sloppy work. Trimmed the shrubs but picking up the branches from the ground was additional charge.
Then I hired someone else. He was Hispanic. Charged me about the same but did a very nice work without add-ones. Extremely professional, no hidden charges and dedicated.
3
Out of concern for the millions still in corrupt countries like Mexico, El Salvador, and Honduras, we cannot have an amnesty.
We don't need to deport; we can eliminate all current and future benefits for the adults here (children should continue to receive free education in English only and free health care).
But no amnesty.
We don't need to deport; we can eliminate all current and future benefits for the adults here (children should continue to receive free education in English only and free health care).
But no amnesty.
7
I am in favor of "a path to citizenship", but not to an amnesty.
The illegals here need to a) pay a signifcant penalty for their willful disregard of our laws, b) go to the end of the line, and c) make a sincere effort to become citizens of the United States.
Anyone not agreeing with the above can leave now on their own or be deported forcefully by US agents.
Anyone not becoming a citizen or making the attempt in a reasonable amount of time need to be on notice that at the end of the "reasonable amount of time". they are either citizens of the US, or immediately deported.
There should be none of the political game playing.
And our border laws need to be faithfully enforced by all levels of federal, state and local law enforcement.
The illegals here need to a) pay a signifcant penalty for their willful disregard of our laws, b) go to the end of the line, and c) make a sincere effort to become citizens of the United States.
Anyone not agreeing with the above can leave now on their own or be deported forcefully by US agents.
Anyone not becoming a citizen or making the attempt in a reasonable amount of time need to be on notice that at the end of the "reasonable amount of time". they are either citizens of the US, or immediately deported.
There should be none of the political game playing.
And our border laws need to be faithfully enforced by all levels of federal, state and local law enforcement.
7
Once we expelled 11,000,000 violators of US immigration laws we will welcome even more LEGAL immigrants to our shores. Not people who just view us as a country to make a dollar but people who treasure what the US has to offer. Treasure it so much that they are willing to wait in line, often for years. It is for these LEGAL immigrants that we need to boot out all who cut the line including their anchor babies. Let the "Dreamers" dream in Mexico.
39
Illegal immigration bears the same relationship to immigration as shoplifting does to shopping. Applying the standards the media use to Trump's comments on illegal immigrants the result would be that if Trump gave a speech tomorrow condemning shoplifting the headlines would read "Trump vows to jail shoppers" If a mother or father goes to jail for shoplifting is there a chorus of dismay? Yet they are often poor and struggling. Illegal immigrants are not blameless. Like the shoplifter they took the chance and should live with the consequences. If you don't like immigration laws vote for those will change them. Don't blame those who swear to uphold the law and then do so.
64
After reading this "editorial" once more -- really, this piece reads like something written by a group of somewhat over enthusiastic college freshmen, not a group of mature adults. Give it a rest, NYT!
62
The fact that the top comment tonite is somewhat hard line says a lot. The comments on Roger Cohen's piece re immigration in Australia had a decidedly anti immigration tone a few weeks ago.
This same popular trend has had outsize influence in European politics as well.
It's , like life itself, a complex issue that can only be addressed fairly when we the people are willing to be honest, fair, look the issue straight on, and sort it out reasonably without slipping into fear, hate , or tribal pathologies.
This same popular trend has had outsize influence in European politics as well.
It's , like life itself, a complex issue that can only be addressed fairly when we the people are willing to be honest, fair, look the issue straight on, and sort it out reasonably without slipping into fear, hate , or tribal pathologies.
5
The LA CBS local station reported that of the 160 detained for deportation, at least three quarters had criminal convictions for offenses including rape and sexual assaults on children. Of the illegals Detained in NYC and Long Island , at least two were convicted of sexual assault against children under 11 years old. These are the people the Obama administration set free to walk our streets.
The woman in Texas was a felon who stole a Social Security number. The young "dreamer" now says he wasn't a gang member. Sure he wasn't.
The woman in Texas was a felon who stole a Social Security number. The young "dreamer" now says he wasn't a gang member. Sure he wasn't.
58
Dear Editorial Board,
Keep writing left-wing propaganda articles like this one, and Trump's re-election is a sure bet.
What part of "illegal alien" does the NYT not get? You insult your readers by white-washing the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth: Illegal entry is a crime, and those individuals who break immigration law are subject to deportation, period.
Maybe you can pretend that Constitutional laws don't exist, but America can't.
Please stop.
An Unhappy Registered Democrat
Keep writing left-wing propaganda articles like this one, and Trump's re-election is a sure bet.
What part of "illegal alien" does the NYT not get? You insult your readers by white-washing the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth: Illegal entry is a crime, and those individuals who break immigration law are subject to deportation, period.
Maybe you can pretend that Constitutional laws don't exist, but America can't.
Please stop.
An Unhappy Registered Democrat
82
Is that you, Rupert? Steve Bannon? Kelly Anne?
6
Sk, you are, of course, correct. The left, open borders community will call you names etc, but they have no real, substantive answer to, why we should allow selective enforcement of our laws. Cliches like, they just want a better life etc are a smoke screen. So do 3 billion other people. I guess we should invite them all here too.
6
Perhaps the US should find more effective ways to discourage illegal immigration, but blaming immigrants for job losses is mere scapegoating and Trump is using it to energize his base. By doing this he is also giving license to other forms of hate against American citizens who are not white. Note the significant increase in hate crimes against Jews, blacks and legal immigrants who happen to be Muslim since Trump came on the national stage as a politician. Trump's silence about these hate crimes says a lot about his agenda. Once you legitimize intolerance, as Trump has done, it only leads to more hate. Where will Trump turn for scapegoats after he deals with illegal immigrants?
12
As a liberal Democrat I would support reform of our nation's immigration policy and enforcement. It can be done with humane compassion and fairness.
My problem that I can not 'get around' is the hate and bigotry that is the motivation of the Trump Administration's immigration reforms. During his entire campaign Trump ranted against the awful, criminal Mexicans. He and he alone put them in a group to be unworthy of decency and rights. And then of course he hired Steve Bannon a known white nationalist who wants an authoritarian rule by white Christians here in America. I can not separate these 'ideals' from Trump's policy. Yes I am very suspicious.
Trump USED immigrants as a foil for all the wrongs. He stirred the hate. He owns it. We heard it. So I do not trust Trump's motives behind his immigration reform as 'reasonable' as it may seem to his supporters.
My problem that I can not 'get around' is the hate and bigotry that is the motivation of the Trump Administration's immigration reforms. During his entire campaign Trump ranted against the awful, criminal Mexicans. He and he alone put them in a group to be unworthy of decency and rights. And then of course he hired Steve Bannon a known white nationalist who wants an authoritarian rule by white Christians here in America. I can not separate these 'ideals' from Trump's policy. Yes I am very suspicious.
Trump USED immigrants as a foil for all the wrongs. He stirred the hate. He owns it. We heard it. So I do not trust Trump's motives behind his immigration reform as 'reasonable' as it may seem to his supporters.
19
I wonder if these ICE raids are constitutional. American citizens are not obligated to carry identification cards. The police has no right to stop anyone and ask for papers.
Unless someone commits a crime the police and ICE cannot stop anyone that "look" Hispanic and speaks Spanish. That is profiling and illegal, probably unconstitutional as well.
Unless someone commits a crime the police and ICE cannot stop anyone that "look" Hispanic and speaks Spanish. That is profiling and illegal, probably unconstitutional as well.
12
next year, the Senate Democrats will be defending 25 seats,the Republicans only eight.
Mr.Trump, if things go his way, and why should we assume they won't, will be able to push any
cruel or bizarre policy through both houses. and
the Supreme Court will be of no use whatsoever.
we ain't seen nothing yet,God help us.
Mr.Trump, if things go his way, and why should we assume they won't, will be able to push any
cruel or bizarre policy through both houses. and
the Supreme Court will be of no use whatsoever.
we ain't seen nothing yet,God help us.
5
The leaders of the immigration rights movement feel that no one should be deported. Since when did "Lady Liberty" morph into "Ma Barker"?
17
I'm a supporter of Trump's stance regarding Islamic immigration. Please read the argument below dispassionately.
How may we judge the likely impact of Islamic immigration? Let us look at aggregate outcomes from the world around us (resist the urge to dig out unrepresentative examples).
First, how are non-Muslims treated in Muslim countries?
Please see:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_by_country
Some quotes:
Algeria: "The law does not recognize marriages between Muslim women and non-Muslim men; it recognise(s) marriages between Muslim men and non-Muslim women. Children follow the religion of their fathers..."
Egypt: "...the 19th century Hamayouni Decree...requires that the President of Egypt approve any permits to build or repair any church in Egypt..."
Nigeria: "In 12 states of Nigeria which have a sharia-based penal code, conversion from Islam to another religion is illegal and often a capital offense.."
Jordan: "The Government prohibits conversion from Islam and proselytization of Muslims."
Malaysia: "The Constitution...plac(es) control upon the 'propagation' of religion other than Islam to Muslims..."
and so on.
Secondly, we see Islamic minorities being sources of non-integration and worse, when compared to other groups like Asians in countries as disparate as the U.K. France, Australia, China, India, Russia etc.
To me, the precautionary principle, as with CO2 emissions, suggests sharp limits on Islamic immigration.
How may we judge the likely impact of Islamic immigration? Let us look at aggregate outcomes from the world around us (resist the urge to dig out unrepresentative examples).
First, how are non-Muslims treated in Muslim countries?
Please see:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_by_country
Some quotes:
Algeria: "The law does not recognize marriages between Muslim women and non-Muslim men; it recognise(s) marriages between Muslim men and non-Muslim women. Children follow the religion of their fathers..."
Egypt: "...the 19th century Hamayouni Decree...requires that the President of Egypt approve any permits to build or repair any church in Egypt..."
Nigeria: "In 12 states of Nigeria which have a sharia-based penal code, conversion from Islam to another religion is illegal and often a capital offense.."
Jordan: "The Government prohibits conversion from Islam and proselytization of Muslims."
Malaysia: "The Constitution...plac(es) control upon the 'propagation' of religion other than Islam to Muslims..."
and so on.
Secondly, we see Islamic minorities being sources of non-integration and worse, when compared to other groups like Asians in countries as disparate as the U.K. France, Australia, China, India, Russia etc.
To me, the precautionary principle, as with CO2 emissions, suggests sharp limits on Islamic immigration.
30
"President Trump’s defenders say the arrest numbers from Immigration and Customs Enforcement are comparable to those under President Barack Obama, an energetic deporter-in-chief. That may be true, for the moment, but the context is vastly different".
So if the arrest numbers are the same, just whom was Mr. Obama deporting? And what was his context if the numbers are the same?
So if the arrest numbers are the same, just whom was Mr. Obama deporting? And what was his context if the numbers are the same?
11
Really??? Mr. trump was elected "by Americans"? I prefer the old-fashioned sense of getting elected, which is to fool more people to vote for you than the other guy did to vote for them.
We're headed smack dab into a crisis of the American political regime. Trump won in the electoral college rube goldberg contraption set up 230 years ago to protect the interests of the slavocracy, but not the debate among the American people.
He may have the oval office but not moral the authority, political legitimacy or institutional and social backing that normally come with it and that he would need to push through any real, substantive changes.
We're headed smack dab into a crisis of the American political regime. Trump won in the electoral college rube goldberg contraption set up 230 years ago to protect the interests of the slavocracy, but not the debate among the American people.
He may have the oval office but not moral the authority, political legitimacy or institutional and social backing that normally come with it and that he would need to push through any real, substantive changes.
7
Trump, as Gail Collins said in these pages, has usurped James Buchanan as the worst president ever.
But Trump won because he campaigned on stopping illegal immigration, and reducing legal immigration. Americans are fed up with both. It's not immigrants, per se, it's the numbers. Had the country adopted the recommendations of Barbara Jordan's commission under President Clinton, and cut legal immigration to half of what it is now, and had it begun strictly enforceing immigration law, Trump would still be a failed businessman.
Everything the Editorial Board says, indicates that it favors open borders, which has been the de facto US immigration policy, and which is exactly what Americans don't want. (Otherwise, Editorial Board, why not advocate for a national, mandatory E-verify, which would stanch the problem of illegal immigration?)
As for sanctuary cities and states, they flout immigration law, and Trump, as awful as he is on most issues, is right to threaten to defund them.
And, by the way, NYT, that "Obama, deporter-in-chief" is fake news. After he became president, in order to get some "tough on immigration" cred to flaunt before the GOP, Obama changed the accounting of deportations to include those caught crossing into the US along with those living in the US, contrary to accounting under all previous administrations. You can read about it in the LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html
But Trump won because he campaigned on stopping illegal immigration, and reducing legal immigration. Americans are fed up with both. It's not immigrants, per se, it's the numbers. Had the country adopted the recommendations of Barbara Jordan's commission under President Clinton, and cut legal immigration to half of what it is now, and had it begun strictly enforceing immigration law, Trump would still be a failed businessman.
Everything the Editorial Board says, indicates that it favors open borders, which has been the de facto US immigration policy, and which is exactly what Americans don't want. (Otherwise, Editorial Board, why not advocate for a national, mandatory E-verify, which would stanch the problem of illegal immigration?)
As for sanctuary cities and states, they flout immigration law, and Trump, as awful as he is on most issues, is right to threaten to defund them.
And, by the way, NYT, that "Obama, deporter-in-chief" is fake news. After he became president, in order to get some "tough on immigration" cred to flaunt before the GOP, Obama changed the accounting of deportations to include those caught crossing into the US along with those living in the US, contrary to accounting under all previous administrations. You can read about it in the LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html
30
Why is the NYT continuing to confuse its readers? "Anti-immigrant Fever" is literally poor journalism and deceptive. The 11 million art not immigrants - they are not undocumented -- they are illegally in this country. This 11 million
34
The New York Times does readers, as well as the fourth estate and our entire democracy a disservice by mistitling this article. There is no anti-immigrant fever, nor is there anti-immigrant sentiment that is at all widespread in the US. Even conservative figures like Ann Coulter aren't fundamentally anti-immigration. But when the NY Times and CNN and other news outlets conflate illegal immigration with legal immigration, you are engaging in what our embarrassment of a president accurately calls fake news. You are eroding the credibility of your news organization, and creating an ecological niche for even more biased and fabricated news when you intentionally mistitle and misreport the news. In fact, your conflation of illegal and legal immigration, and demonization of anyone who is interested in re-examining the appropriateness of our current immigration policy is morally no better than Mr. Trump's conflation of a memory of having seen Muslims celebrating in the streets in East Jerusalem and Gaza (something that can be seen on youtube for anyone curious) and having seen Muslims celebrating in Jersey City. Please stop. What you are doing is hurting our country.
46
Six states have 59% of unauthorized immigrants, five of the six are coastal states with the exception being Illinois. Most of these people are in farming related work and most of these workers are brown people. The white guys don't pick and plough anymore. The farms are corporate. Good luck getting your legally grown and harvested tomatoes and avocados. This is about white supremacy and no avocados. Bad deal all around.
12
American citizens refuse to take jobs that pay below minimum wage with sketchy pay schedules and zero worker protection.
If you're willing to expose and exploit poor people for an avocado, wow.
If you're willing to expose and exploit poor people for an avocado, wow.
7
Why is the NYT continuing to confuse its readers? "Anti-immigrant Fever" is literally poor journalism and deceptive. The 11 million are not immigrants - they are not undocumented -- they are illegally in this country. This 11 million are largely responsible for the result of the past election -- for giving us a President Trump along with a massive welfare bill.
67
The raids on restaurants and other businesses might get some people's attention, especially when the establishments close, like they did in a few cities.B] But, when you consider all of the minimump-wage-and lower-workers no longer available, business might be slow for awhile. And, those people paid traps and patronized local stores.
Go ahead, Donald, prove your point. It's right on top of your head! For every action that you take, there can be a reaction--and sometimes a negative. Many of these people had been washing dishes, cutting lawns, making pizza, picking fruit and vegetables, digging ditches. Are all of those people who voted for you going to take-on such labor-intensive, low-paying jobs?
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Go ahead, Donald, prove your point. It's right on top of your head! For every action that you take, there can be a reaction--and sometimes a negative. Many of these people had been washing dishes, cutting lawns, making pizza, picking fruit and vegetables, digging ditches. Are all of those people who voted for you going to take-on such labor-intensive, low-paying jobs?
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
9
So tired of the ignorant use of action-reaction.
It's a physics thing.
It only applies in specific circumstances. It's complex.
And I'd rather go without pizza or cut my own lawn than look the other way while human beings are underpaid and exploited.
It's a physics thing.
It only applies in specific circumstances. It's complex.
And I'd rather go without pizza or cut my own lawn than look the other way while human beings are underpaid and exploited.
3
A huge demonstration in Barcelona Saturday (2/18/17) demanded that Spanish government fulfill its 2015 pledge to take in 16,000 refugees. So far, the country has accepted only 1,100. The crowd, estimated by police at 160,000, carried signs saying such things as "Enough excuses, welcome them now." The demonstration was organized by a group calling itself Casa Nostra Casa Vostra (Our home is your home).
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/18/protesters-in-barcelona-ur...
Ironic, isn't it?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/18/protesters-in-barcelona-ur...
Ironic, isn't it?
4
Many will gladly take the message of ''the day without immigrants'' for a week or month, how about permanently? We will gladly message them that they are needed in their home countries. 11 million plus people do not have the right to be in our nation. They are illegally here.
They can either self deport or Trump will show them the exit. And most Americans support this.
They can either self deport or Trump will show them the exit. And most Americans support this.
24
I think we should go for amnesty for all present immigrants and refugees without criminal records and thereby save incredible costs and clear the courts of much chaos. New laws patterned on Canada's should be established and some of the money saved directed to assimilation services for future refugees. Marchers shouting "Amnesty Now For Non-criminal Americans" would be easy for the public to understand. It's time to put forth strong ideas and get off the defensive all the time.
7
If the democrats when in power enforced immigration laws the folk described in this opinion piece would not be facing the problems they are. Democrats have encouraged illegal immigration for one reason and one reason only - power. Democrats want the votes that's all.
Don't blame Trump for enforcing immigration laws, and if you feel sorry for those harmed look inward for blame.
Don't blame Trump for enforcing immigration laws, and if you feel sorry for those harmed look inward for blame.
18
Illegal means illegal - these people are breaking the law by living here when they are not supposed to. 11 million is a huge number! We simply can not have every single person who would like to live here do so. We are already the third most populous country in the world, right behind China and India. I do not want to live in a country that resembles either of those two. These people need to stay in their countries and work to improve those places. I don't like Trump, but too much is too much.
34
What utter nonsense. If one wishes to immigrate to a country, abide by its immigration laws or be deported. Simple.
41
That guy unfortunately is wasting all his energies and man power on this useless and fear mongering things like this deportation, etc. Is this really needed now? Who will benefit just by deporting out a mother from a family?
3
So let's say Donald's idea of creating jobs is an enormous force of immigration officers, prison guards, and whatever else you need to round up and expel eleven or so million people. What happens when they're gone? Will the officers pack up their nice uniforms, put away their guns, and go pick strawberries, clean offices, and babysit children?
That'll be the day.
Now for the real question. Is there a single, solitary illegal alien working in any of Donald's hotels, or golf courses, or whatever?
Right.
That'll be the day.
Now for the real question. Is there a single, solitary illegal alien working in any of Donald's hotels, or golf courses, or whatever?
Right.
7
Peep the racist who wants illegals here to mow his lawn and pick his kale for him on the cheap.
Maybe if we got rid of the illegals, the increased demand for labor would lead to increased wages, and then maybe then Americans would indeed decide those jobs were worthwhile.
Maybe if we got rid of the illegals, the increased demand for labor would lead to increased wages, and then maybe then Americans would indeed decide those jobs were worthwhile.
8
It would not take an "enormous force." In 1954, President Eisenhower launched a roundup that removed about 1.5 unauthorized immigrants in just several months. The operation involved only 750 immigration and border patrol officers, a fraction of the force ICE and the Border Patrol could marshal today. In addition to those deported, hundreds of thousands illegal immigrants voluntarily left the country because they feared arrests.
6
The change in immigration policy opens the door to completely unchecked abuse and victimisation of undocumented persons.
The Fourteenth Amendment grants every person due process: "No state shall . . . deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
EVERY PERSON is granted due process of law and equal protection. If someone is for example threatened, attacked, raped, or robbed they are entitled to the same protection from the law. However, in the case of undocumented persons they will no longer be able to seek the help and protections they are entitled to because they can and will most likely be detained and deported if they approach the authorities.
What can an undocumented person who is a victim of rape do now? With the stroke of a pen DJT has effectively stripped 11 million people of the protection of the law. Imagine a life where you couldn't approach the police for help?
The Fourteenth Amendment grants every person due process: "No state shall . . . deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
EVERY PERSON is granted due process of law and equal protection. If someone is for example threatened, attacked, raped, or robbed they are entitled to the same protection from the law. However, in the case of undocumented persons they will no longer be able to seek the help and protections they are entitled to because they can and will most likely be detained and deported if they approach the authorities.
What can an undocumented person who is a victim of rape do now? With the stroke of a pen DJT has effectively stripped 11 million people of the protection of the law. Imagine a life where you couldn't approach the police for help?
6
In sum, the editors at the NYT argue: Once a person enters the U.S. illegally that person has a moral (almost quasi legal) right to stay.
What then, is the purpose of having immigration laws at all?
What then, is the purpose of having immigration laws at all?
56
What Anti-Immigration fever?
People are rightly fed up with illegal immigration, no one protests legal immigration.
That's called respect for the rule of law, one of the pillars of our society.
People are rightly fed up with illegal immigration, no one protests legal immigration.
That's called respect for the rule of law, one of the pillars of our society.
61
The New York Times editorial board thinks that if it refuses to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, it readers will come to believe that Americans who oppose illegal immigration also oppose legal immigration. It's the "big lie repeated often enough" strategy.
10
The way for the Democrats to stop Trump's nonsense is for the Democrats to convince the TRump supporters that the Democrats have a program to address their economic concerns while TRump's proposals will not help them and in fact will make their situation worse.
HRC told the displaced workers in effect expletive deleted so they
[especially in Pennsylvania [20 electoral votes], Wisconsin [10], Michigan
[ 16],} voted for a demagogue.
Ohio [ 18], total [64]
HRC told the displaced workers in effect expletive deleted so they
[especially in Pennsylvania [20 electoral votes], Wisconsin [10], Michigan
[ 16],} voted for a demagogue.
Ohio [ 18], total [64]
5
I give support in any way I can to immigrants, without distinction between documented and undocumented. They are all human beings doing their best to put food on the table for their families. Beyond demonstrating and supplying food to the day laborers, since trump I have added another action: I have visited my immigrant neighbors and offered my home as a refuge should any ICE agents come into our town. Without a warrant they will have to beat me (an elderly woman) down to enter my house. If the local churches and other institutions don't step up to the plate, we, as individuals can do it.
5
As I understand it, the policy is for American companies only to offer jobs in America and only to employ Americans; all imported goods will incur a tariff. So we will not be talking to many foreigners, which is why we need a stronger military.
Seems like America has lost its nerve.
Seems like America has lost its nerve.
1
I am proud to live in a city where undocumented immigrants are supported and can find "sanctuary." I don't need to justify my feelings to the many commenters who will disagree and no doubt freak out because I don't use the word illegal. It is what I believe in my heart, and so many believe in their hearts.
4
"About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law."
Since when is "outside the law" acceptable?
As an immigrant who became a naturalized citizen, I am not against immigrants, but to condone illegal immigration is crazy.
The country went through the immigration reform exercise (Simpson-Mazzoli bill) under Reagan and legalized a few million illegal immigrants. The same thing is being talked about now. How many times can the country go through this exercise?
Allow me to quote from your editorial on this topic (Hispanic Votes vs. Public Interest" https://nyti.ms/2kKD9XH) from 1984:
"By any standard of decency, it's wrong to favor migrants from one country at the expense of all others. It's wrong to favor illegal at the expense of legal entrants."
Who'd disagree?
You also said this in that editorial, "Simpson-Mazzoli would finally make it illegal for an employer to hire illegal workers. Thus turning off the economic magnets would probably be the most effective thing America can do to regain control of its borders."
Again, not many would disagree.
Unfortunately, not enough efforts were put in to penalize employers and the country never regained control of its borders.
Perhaps you should focus on that aspect more.
Since when is "outside the law" acceptable?
As an immigrant who became a naturalized citizen, I am not against immigrants, but to condone illegal immigration is crazy.
The country went through the immigration reform exercise (Simpson-Mazzoli bill) under Reagan and legalized a few million illegal immigrants. The same thing is being talked about now. How many times can the country go through this exercise?
Allow me to quote from your editorial on this topic (Hispanic Votes vs. Public Interest" https://nyti.ms/2kKD9XH) from 1984:
"By any standard of decency, it's wrong to favor migrants from one country at the expense of all others. It's wrong to favor illegal at the expense of legal entrants."
Who'd disagree?
You also said this in that editorial, "Simpson-Mazzoli would finally make it illegal for an employer to hire illegal workers. Thus turning off the economic magnets would probably be the most effective thing America can do to regain control of its borders."
Again, not many would disagree.
Unfortunately, not enough efforts were put in to penalize employers and the country never regained control of its borders.
Perhaps you should focus on that aspect more.
30
The NYT's new slogan, "Truth, it has no alternative" has apparently missed the Editorial Board. Editorials that continue to conflate illegal aliens and lawful immigrants have an air of truthiness that's continually refuted in comments by many of the paper's most steadfast liberals.
32
Here in Dallas, TX we are hearing that some Mexican restaurants in our area have received letters that they may face prosecution if they have any undocumented employees. They have had to let them go. Some had been working there for 20 years. We are seeing a lot more police activity. If you wish to know specific instances you can contact me on my email address associated with my subscription.
4
New York Times Editorial Board - Can you please explain our immigration laws? Not only what they are - but why they are not being enforced. Why people here illegally are entitled to stay and why people on waiting lists have to wait many years to gain entry.
I am a Democrat and no fan of the so-called president, Trump, and his dumb wall. However, we are supposed to be a country of laws. If they are not being enforced then we should have a national discussion on the subject.
I am a Democrat and no fan of the so-called president, Trump, and his dumb wall. However, we are supposed to be a country of laws. If they are not being enforced then we should have a national discussion on the subject.
25
You do not help your case by making phony portrayals, like this one:
"In El Paso, a woman is picked up at a courthouse where she had been seeking an order of protection; immigration agents were apparently tipped off by the man she said abused her."
This was not a woman, but a man in drag, using claims of domestic abuse as one last desperate attempt to avoid being deported. He/she had been deported 8 times before and snuck back in (that's 7 felonies), and had been arrested for passing fraudulent checks, unlawful restraint, and ironically, domestic violence. He/she had received numerous fair hearings and been turned down.
Please, enough of this dishonest agenda journalism. People who have committed crimes should live in fear of being caught. In this case, all they have to do is leave, and the fear goes away.
"In El Paso, a woman is picked up at a courthouse where she had been seeking an order of protection; immigration agents were apparently tipped off by the man she said abused her."
This was not a woman, but a man in drag, using claims of domestic abuse as one last desperate attempt to avoid being deported. He/she had been deported 8 times before and snuck back in (that's 7 felonies), and had been arrested for passing fraudulent checks, unlawful restraint, and ironically, domestic violence. He/she had received numerous fair hearings and been turned down.
Please, enough of this dishonest agenda journalism. People who have committed crimes should live in fear of being caught. In this case, all they have to do is leave, and the fear goes away.
27
Time for them to go.
21
"Others, a large minority, lie awake, thinking about losing their families, jobs and homes. They have been vilified by the president as criminals, though they are not. They have tried to build honest lives here and suddenly are as fearful as fugitives."
Wrong. If an American utilizes fake IDs, refuses to pay a dime in income or social security taxes for years, drives without either a drivers license or insurance, he has committed several crimes and will go to prison if he is caught. What exactly makes the NYT's "Editorial Board" imagine that illegal immigrants are not obligated to follow the same laws as the rest of us?
Wrong. If an American utilizes fake IDs, refuses to pay a dime in income or social security taxes for years, drives without either a drivers license or insurance, he has committed several crimes and will go to prison if he is caught. What exactly makes the NYT's "Editorial Board" imagine that illegal immigrants are not obligated to follow the same laws as the rest of us?
37
You write about "living outside the law", but not being a criminal. That defines illegal immigrants not all immigrants. Americans voted for a President that was against the illegal immigrant not all immigrants. You lose your credibility when you confuse the two.
26
The NYT is now criticizing the Trump administration for enforcing our laws. If you believe the dictum that "the best way to get a stupid law repealed is to enforce it vigorously" then Trump is doing illegal immigrants a favor. However, if the majority of Americans believe that illegal immigrants should not be favored over legal immigrants, you may find that the people do not support your position.
Looking at this another way, what if Trump followed Obama's example and claimed that our environmental system was "broken" and by executive order he was going to "defer" any enforcement actions against municipalities that had frequent sanitary sewer overflows, and exempt them from requirements to upgrade sewage systems? There would probably be widespread support for that since our water/sewer bills wouldn't be going up so much. Would you support such a move? Or are executive actions only justified when you like the result?
Looking at this another way, what if Trump followed Obama's example and claimed that our environmental system was "broken" and by executive order he was going to "defer" any enforcement actions against municipalities that had frequent sanitary sewer overflows, and exempt them from requirements to upgrade sewage systems? There would probably be widespread support for that since our water/sewer bills wouldn't be going up so much. Would you support such a move? Or are executive actions only justified when you like the result?
19
The NYT takes the wrong view.
Diversity has been a social ill since the beginning of history, and each state has attempted to fix this problem through war, xenophobia, assimilation, and so on. In the 21st century, we should come up with better ways, both social and technology, to rid us of pluralism.
From the longer, more complete view of history, the correct interpretation is "How do we break the multiculturalist fever"?
Diversity has been a social ill since the beginning of history, and each state has attempted to fix this problem through war, xenophobia, assimilation, and so on. In the 21st century, we should come up with better ways, both social and technology, to rid us of pluralism.
From the longer, more complete view of history, the correct interpretation is "How do we break the multiculturalist fever"?
19
This fever has nothing to do with immigrants that have legally arrived in the US. It is only about those who have come here illegally and then most especially those who commit crimes of various types while here. They can choose to return to their country and take their families with them. Not only Mexico, and including people who over stay their visas as well.
30
"About 11 million people are living in this country outside the law. "
That's pretty close to calling them illegal immigrants. Just a little more effort and the NY Times will have completed that first step.
That's pretty close to calling them illegal immigrants. Just a little more effort and the NY Times will have completed that first step.
45
I don't fully understand who these illegal immigrants are and how they came to be here in the in the first place. Further, what provisions are there to prevent the same thing occurring again even if the present efforts at removal are successful ?
9
There is a reason you are called fake news. The "woman" picked up at the courthouse had already been deported SIX times, and had a criminal record, which means "she" was exactly the kind of guy Obama had supposedly been targeting. Oddly, you left all those details out. The rank and file American is fed up with your elitist contempt for our laws. You don't get to toss aside and disregard laws that were passed and have been on the books for decades because they don't suit your current mood (NYT, as most leftists of the time, were anti-illegals and pro-rule of law, because it was seen as pro-worker, well into the Clinton era.) Support for unchecked immigration is wide and shallow, but opposition (including among many of your union and black base in the Upper midwest) may be narrower but if far more passionate. This is a fight that is going to continue to cause you electoral grief if you don't check your assumptions.
92
The "woman" picked up at the courthouse had already been deported SIX times, and had a criminal record, which means "she" was exactly the kind of guy Obama had supposedly been targeting. Oddly, you left all those details out.
==================
That's six felonies
==================
That's six felonies
8
You are correct, doctor.
In my comment to this editorial, I made reference to a 1984 NY Times editorial on this topic when the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration reform bill was in the news.
Times took a more rational approach to this topic back then. Please take a look: https://nyti.ms/2kKD9XH
I like the Times and have been a regular reader for a long time. But supporting illegal immigration is a losing cause for anyone, including the Times and the Democrats who are already in the minority all across the US.
In my comment to this editorial, I made reference to a 1984 NY Times editorial on this topic when the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration reform bill was in the news.
Times took a more rational approach to this topic back then. Please take a look: https://nyti.ms/2kKD9XH
I like the Times and have been a regular reader for a long time. But supporting illegal immigration is a losing cause for anyone, including the Times and the Democrats who are already in the minority all across the US.
6
Deported 6 times? The truth is that she was deported ONCE. Of course she returned to the United States. Ms. Vizguerra re-entered to return to her parenting and rearing of her American born children. Had she abandoned her children and stayed in Mexico, she would have been accused of all other kinds of things by people like you.
Criminal record? All charges against her were dropped. Under the laws of the land that you are so adamantly defending that means that she has no criminal record!
So john o MD. It appears that you are the one who is guilty of spreading fake news! Sad!
Folks, it is also up to us to defend our reputable and reliable news source and journals from the sycophants who cry fake news at 45's behest!
Criminal record? All charges against her were dropped. Under the laws of the land that you are so adamantly defending that means that she has no criminal record!
So john o MD. It appears that you are the one who is guilty of spreading fake news! Sad!
Folks, it is also up to us to defend our reputable and reliable news source and journals from the sycophants who cry fake news at 45's behest!
The article says, "The other best lever available, besides the courts and the Constitution, is people power."
No, the best lever IS people power. That is all that will work in today's top-down hate-anger-fear-war-LIES campaign.
The Good News is that it is happening across America. States and cities are simply refusing to use OUR local law enforcement offices to promote The Con Don's hate campaign against immigrants. He can keep his money.
People of all ages and ethnicity are forming support groups and pledging to go immediately to help their co-workers, friends and strangers who are falsely targeted.
America is a land of immigrants. Many brought here as cheap/free labor by Robber Barons, many escaped war and poverty, many escape3 religious persecution. Yes, send the gangsters and serious law-breakers back but Do Not persecute innocent people who came here and are working hard to have a better life as long as they honor the Constitution of The United States of America.
No, the best lever IS people power. That is all that will work in today's top-down hate-anger-fear-war-LIES campaign.
The Good News is that it is happening across America. States and cities are simply refusing to use OUR local law enforcement offices to promote The Con Don's hate campaign against immigrants. He can keep his money.
People of all ages and ethnicity are forming support groups and pledging to go immediately to help their co-workers, friends and strangers who are falsely targeted.
America is a land of immigrants. Many brought here as cheap/free labor by Robber Barons, many escaped war and poverty, many escape3 religious persecution. Yes, send the gangsters and serious law-breakers back but Do Not persecute innocent people who came here and are working hard to have a better life as long as they honor the Constitution of The United States of America.
8
It's not immigrants that Trump, and most of the nation, is against. It's illegal aliens. They have no right to be in this nation and by their very presence are breaking federal law. Are you allowed to openly break the law and not only go unpunished but heralded by people like yourself. Are we not a nation of laws?
8
What's really curious is that so many people are exercised about controlling illegal immigration, so much that they haven't noticed that the number of undocumented immigrants in the U.S. is LOWER than it was in 2007 by almost 9% (11.1 million now, 12.2 million then.
Source: http://www.pewhispanic.org/).
So, while there is some number coming in, an equal number is leaving.
As a fraction of the working population, undocumented immigrants are DECLINING, because the overall population is increasing.
Xenophobia is a powerful emotion and easily triggered. Reactionaries (including our Republican party) have exploited that for generations, at least 125 years. And it's a complete sideshow and distraction.
Well-paying middle-class jobs were lost in the 70's and 80's by leveraged buyouts and offshoring, not immigration. NAFTA created another wave of offshoring -- bankrupting Mexican farmers along the way and creating a new economy of poverty-level wages in maquiladoras along the border. Undocumented immigrants had nothing to do with it.
There is really nothing to prevent bringing back the factories that were exported. It could be done. But now the problem is automation: those factories don't employ the same number of workers as before. And the trend is to reduce the number of workers even further.
So that's a real problem, and needs to be addressed. But building a wall or deporting every undocumented immigrant won't amount to a hill of beans toward solving our problems.
Source: http://www.pewhispanic.org/).
So, while there is some number coming in, an equal number is leaving.
As a fraction of the working population, undocumented immigrants are DECLINING, because the overall population is increasing.
Xenophobia is a powerful emotion and easily triggered. Reactionaries (including our Republican party) have exploited that for generations, at least 125 years. And it's a complete sideshow and distraction.
Well-paying middle-class jobs were lost in the 70's and 80's by leveraged buyouts and offshoring, not immigration. NAFTA created another wave of offshoring -- bankrupting Mexican farmers along the way and creating a new economy of poverty-level wages in maquiladoras along the border. Undocumented immigrants had nothing to do with it.
There is really nothing to prevent bringing back the factories that were exported. It could be done. But now the problem is automation: those factories don't employ the same number of workers as before. And the trend is to reduce the number of workers even further.
So that's a real problem, and needs to be addressed. But building a wall or deporting every undocumented immigrant won't amount to a hill of beans toward solving our problems.
9
Well then, we have our work cut out for us catching the rest of them.
2
Yes, indeed, elections have consequences, and those of us who voted for President Trump are glad to see he is following through with his campaign promises to curb illegal immigration.
19
nice of you to advocate this, now that you no longer need these people!
1
This is a remakably frank, honest and sobering editorial. The only thing that gives any significant hope is that this nation has been through these anti-immigrant waves before and survived. One can only hope President Trump and Steve Bannon have not conceived of an idea so malevolent that the US will never be able to recover from it.
5
The NY Times rarely distinguishes legal immigration from illegal immigration. By doing so, you easily malign anyone opposed to illegal immigration as anti immigrant, racist and xenophobic. It was a clever word trick until it backfired and helped elect President Trump. Nice try.
35
It's Newspeak, worthy of Big Brother from Orwell's seminal anti-socialist tract, 1984
6
I agree 100% with this editorial.
5
Cowards like Trump do not challenge the powerful.
Rather they pick on and persecute the least powerful, the marginalized - refugees and other people who were forced to leave their countries due to horrible circumstances.
Republicans think this is what it is to be "tough" - persecuting people weaker and more disadvantaged than they are.
That's not what toughness is.
On the Statue of Liberty it reads: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
Trump wants to persecute the tired and poor and kick them out of the country.
While his supporters cheer.
This is not the America I knew. It's not the America the world once knew.
It's a disgrace. One of the most shameful chapters in American history.
Rather they pick on and persecute the least powerful, the marginalized - refugees and other people who were forced to leave their countries due to horrible circumstances.
Republicans think this is what it is to be "tough" - persecuting people weaker and more disadvantaged than they are.
That's not what toughness is.
On the Statue of Liberty it reads: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
Trump wants to persecute the tired and poor and kick them out of the country.
While his supporters cheer.
This is not the America I knew. It's not the America the world once knew.
It's a disgrace. One of the most shameful chapters in American history.
11
Hate to break it to you but the poem under the statue of liberty was written in a different time, is not law, and certainly doesn't mean "come here and live off public assistance, refuse to learn the language, and be influenced by leftists who teach you to hate your new country."
5
We are under the grasp of a ruthless, heartless Tyrant supported by equally ruthless, heartless people. It is heartbreaking that the Tyrant's base is such a cruel, selfish group; that so many in this country are so horrible - so deplorable.
5
I have taught the great books on discrimination, ethnic cleansing and genocide for many years, and each time there is the miracle of our shared human awareness to condemn the cruelty of fascism, mob psychology and racism. There is always thoughtful silence at the end of these lessons- and the disbelief-- How could this happen?? Every soul has been taught the history and the deathly slope from propaganda to violence in the name of god and country. And yet here we are: living in a society governed of, by and for fear itself.
59
I have taught the great books on discrimination, ethnic cleansing and genocide for many years,
=================
Enforcing current US immigration law has nothing to do with any of those subjects
=================
Enforcing current US immigration law has nothing to do with any of those subjects
6
Infuriating. George W. Bush tried to implement humane, reasonable immigration policies. His party thwarted him, and thwarted any attempt by the Obama administration. They wanted a campaign rallying point. Such a policy wouldn't have "thrown open the doors," nobody seriously wants to do that.
Now Trump has told us the only way to handle this is by draconian, inhumane, expensive, chaotic efforts. And the American people will fall for it, because they think this is the only way. And this is how America will move to a more militarized, authoritarian society.
Now Trump has told us the only way to handle this is by draconian, inhumane, expensive, chaotic efforts. And the American people will fall for it, because they think this is the only way. And this is how America will move to a more militarized, authoritarian society.
15
This is false. Obama thwarted bipartisan immigration reform because he wanted the issue instead of a solution.
4
Paula, I get what you are saying, the ascendant right portion of the GOP did not support GW's immigration reform bill in 2006/2007. But since the Democrats controlled the House and Senate at that point, and it passed the House, it came down to 33 Democratic Senators (including Bernie Sanders) who voted no. If those 33 Democratic Senators had voted yes, it would have passed. There were enough other Democrats & centrist, corporatist Republicans on board.
The Democrats prefer this solely as a wedge issue and did not want to give GW any success on it. And they know their 1% campaign donors in tech prefer to abuse H-1B visas to fire US citizens for wage exploitation so some objected to the Canada-like merit-based legal immigration reform. That would have removed employer-sponsored in-sourcing. It's inconvenient but the voting record in the Senate that June tells us the failure of Bush's immigration reform rests with the Democrats.
The Democrats prefer this solely as a wedge issue and did not want to give GW any success on it. And they know their 1% campaign donors in tech prefer to abuse H-1B visas to fire US citizens for wage exploitation so some objected to the Canada-like merit-based legal immigration reform. That would have removed employer-sponsored in-sourcing. It's inconvenient but the voting record in the Senate that June tells us the failure of Bush's immigration reform rests with the Democrats.
1
The 'readers' picks' clearly show that even NY Times readers are not going to fall for this. The majority of the voters have made up their minds, they are against illegal immigration, and they want it stopped. They agree with Trump on deporting illegals, starting with those who have committed crimes.
The're not going to listen to protestors and bleeding hearts. This is a democracy, the majority rules, and illegal immigrants are going to be shown the door.
The're not going to listen to protestors and bleeding hearts. This is a democracy, the majority rules, and illegal immigrants are going to be shown the door.
77
yes, we are a democracy where the majority rules...however, losing an election by almost 3 million votes does not make a "majority".
By majority you are referring to Trumps losing the popular vote? Good math skills you have there.
Jonathan: Indeed, it should be that "majority rules" - Hillary Clinton won the majority of popular votes, or had you forgotten that? Your views are actually not those of the majority - and no venom and "alternative facts," otherwise known as lies, will change that. 2/19, 11:05 AM
3
Hey, remember that time when our country said everybody had to obey the law whether you liked it or not? All that stuff about having to make pizzas, bake cakes, and issue same-sex wedding licenses? Remember all that lofty rhetoric about the rule of law? I sort of do. But I guess it was all just blowing smoke. Now apparently it's all about 'discretion,' 'judgement,' and and other euphemisms for ignoring laws you don't like. Que interesante.
73
One who cannot correctly spell "judgment" should not judge others.
The anti-immigrant fever may break when farmers who supported Trump can't find workers to harvest their fruits and vegetables.
The fever might break when one tomato costs $10 and hamburger costs $15 a pound. A restaurant meal that currently costs $40 will cost at least double after the cooks and dishwashers are deported.
Hospital and assisted living bills will skyrocket because deporting immigrants will decimate the housekeeping and nurses aid staff of these facilities.
Sharp increases in grocery bills cannot be dismissed as "fake news" .
The fever might break when one tomato costs $10 and hamburger costs $15 a pound. A restaurant meal that currently costs $40 will cost at least double after the cooks and dishwashers are deported.
Hospital and assisted living bills will skyrocket because deporting immigrants will decimate the housekeeping and nurses aid staff of these facilities.
Sharp increases in grocery bills cannot be dismissed as "fake news" .
13
They have an interesting program in Canada for agricultural labor, which I read about in the NY Times. The Mexican workers come for 10 or 12 weeks, pick the vegetables, and leave. They can't bring their families; only the worker comes. They are paid at a good rate, and are supplied with decent housing.
In order to collect their salary, they have to turn up in person at the bank in Mexico - no exceptions.
In order to collect their salary, they have to turn up in person at the bank in Mexico - no exceptions.
24
So, what you're saying is you're OK with things that you pay for being cheap, as long as it isn't you getting the paycheck? Nice.
2
You mean you might actually pay the real cost of the things you buy? How dreadful! Why next they might talk of freeing the slaves!
4
Immigrants are not Americans. Why is nearly every single article on immigration by you Pro-Immigration. As someone who's been directly replaced at IT work by wage cutting immigrants, as a US born white who's become a small minority in their city, I fail to see the glories of constant mass immigration.
68
Dave, immigrants are what has made us a great country. You make the same argument that was made against Germans, Irish, Italians and Jews.
Thank you for demonstrating so clearly what is at the root of this anti-immigrant fever: envy, inadequacy, and racism. No you were not kicked out because of the wage cutting by immigrants. You were kicked out because you are not good. I live and work in the Silicon Valley and it is as close to meritocracy as any human society can come. If you were good, you would have a job. "Immigrants are not Americans"? I am a naturalized citizen and I am as American as you are. And "your city"? Who gave you a deed on it? All the cities in California have been built by immigrants and it's only right that they should live there.
2
A clear agenda of the open borders crowd appears to be reducing the percent of whites in this country at all costs. This is clearly racist. It will be interesting to see if the nyts and other push for white immigrants as soon as California becomes less diverse as it becomes majority Hispanic, where it is clearly headed.
5
"No politics can be defined only by openness, no matter how appealing that might sound. (Borders) are practical requirement for institutions of self-government.... The difficult and unpleasant fact is that to be for social-democratic policies today means also being for borders.... This is a genuine dilemma for the left. It will not bother the nationalist right, who is at home "protecting its own" through ... exclusion. But those who want to combine economic democracy ... moral concern, ... freedom of movement, and an egalitarian social order must face ... tough questions with no easy answers in sight. Democracy remains caught within borders, and the power of democratic politics to shape and discipline the economy will only grow weaker without some geographical and economic boundaries being drawn." Prof. J. Purdy, The Nation Magazine, 10/31/16. When can this difficult reality become part of the our national discussion on immigration?
22
Wonder who they will come for next? Catholics? Jews?
For they will not stop, Trump and company can only survive on fear. Tonight, I, a nonbeliever, will attend a non denominational vigil in a local church to show support for immigrants. They are our neighbors, friends and care providers. I will stand with them not those displaying paranoia and seeking scapegoats.
For they will not stop, Trump and company can only survive on fear. Tonight, I, a nonbeliever, will attend a non denominational vigil in a local church to show support for immigrants. They are our neighbors, friends and care providers. I will stand with them not those displaying paranoia and seeking scapegoats.
18
They are foreign nationals we didn't invite. Send them home!
2
Hal Donahue - "Wonder who they will come for next? Catholics? Jews?"
Stop the hyperbole Hal "they" are coming for those who have violated the law of the United States, those who have entered or remained in the United States in violation of law, our law Hal. If you don't like the law petition to have it changed but in the meantime it is the law. Other than immigration law what other laws in this country do you think should be ignored and violated with impunity?
Stop the hyperbole Hal "they" are coming for those who have violated the law of the United States, those who have entered or remained in the United States in violation of law, our law Hal. If you don't like the law petition to have it changed but in the meantime it is the law. Other than immigration law what other laws in this country do you think should be ignored and violated with impunity?
3
The only paranoia is yours. It is not paranoid to have borders, and an immigration system built on laws, rules and a legal pathway. Letting everybody in who can sneak across the border or overstay a visa, may give the left a warm fuzzy, but no other country on earth (for good reason) operates like this and neither should we.
4
When someone complains to me that a law is unfair and therefore they feel they can break it I always say, "If you don't like a law then change it; but, until it is changed, obey it". So what do do with 11 million law breakers?
Here is my proposal:
The illegal immigration began decades ago so the fixing cannot happen overnight. Yes, some illegal residents are going to have to pack up and go home to their own birthplaces. Anyone who has been here less than five years has to leave immediately or they will be arrested. Anyone who has an American born child born in 2016 or before can stay, but they have to be working and be on the path to citizenship. Anyone who has been here more than five years but less than twenty and can prove they having been working during that timeframe gets a worker visa. Dreamers can apply to be sponsored but must work or be in an accredited school to remain. Anyone who has been here more than twenty years ant can prove they worked the entire time gets citizenship. Any felony conviction boots you out, no exceptions. After 2017 all illegals trying to enter get deported with no exceptions. Refugees are not under this proposed program.
Well, I tried.
Here is my proposal:
The illegal immigration began decades ago so the fixing cannot happen overnight. Yes, some illegal residents are going to have to pack up and go home to their own birthplaces. Anyone who has been here less than five years has to leave immediately or they will be arrested. Anyone who has an American born child born in 2016 or before can stay, but they have to be working and be on the path to citizenship. Anyone who has been here more than five years but less than twenty and can prove they having been working during that timeframe gets a worker visa. Dreamers can apply to be sponsored but must work or be in an accredited school to remain. Anyone who has been here more than twenty years ant can prove they worked the entire time gets citizenship. Any felony conviction boots you out, no exceptions. After 2017 all illegals trying to enter get deported with no exceptions. Refugees are not under this proposed program.
Well, I tried.
26
A woman enters the U.S. illegally and gives birth to several children. Those children [now U.S. citizens] qualify for benefits. Some of those benefits are cash payments which the mother now sends back to her home country. That's MY MONEY - I paid for her kids education, food, healthcare and housing and now I want it back. Either register these people and start requiring them to file state and federal returns or deport them. My patience and good nature has finally come to an end.
82
Aaron, you are making things up of which you have no idea. Many women like the one you mention pay in to Social Security without getting any in return. You are not paying for her education. You are just an anti-Christian selfish individual.
1
They don't earn enough to pay for their costs. Send them all home.
6
Birthright citizenship, a provision of our immigration system that needs to be ended, is a magnet for illegal immigration and birth tourism. Any so called immigration reform that does not include this is not real reform.
7
My maternal grandfather was illegitimate and half Native American. This was very shameful, at the time. Now, I'm proud of that heritage. Most of us descend from immigrants, at least partially. Why all the uproar, now??? Is this another example of divide and conquer??? Are we eventually going to be categorized in racial groups, and subgroups??? Where does this stop???
11
Please read this reality based article: http://www.salon.com/2010/05/04/immigration_open_borders_welfare_state/
1
"Is this another example of divide and conquer??? Are we eventually going to be categorized in racial groups, and subgroups???"
You just defined Identity Politics and Multiculturalism.
You just defined Identity Politics and Multiculturalism.
4
Ever since crooked Trump assailed the presidency by his deliberate and constant lies that, be sheer repetition became the gospel truth to his adherents, he continues to misrule government by a constant: fear and hate, and division; and, of course, his lies and insults, especially when trying to demonize the press. Trump is the grandson of a German immigrant, and grandpa had to lie to be admitted to the U.S. as Swedish (given that Germans were not acceptable then), one more among the millions of immigrants who are proud contributors to American society; except that Donald Trump himself, is a far cry from honesty and decency, one of those failed experiments one has to accept reluctantly, like the one in a million (BS figure) condom with a hole in it, giving rise to an unwanted child. Religious and ethnic tests were thought to be events of our past. But no sir, now revived by our Discriminator-in-Chief. If this is Anti-Immigrant Fever, we have a problem at hand, as its resolution demands the will to recognize our "alien" (from out of space, I suppose) contributions, and the courage to support that claim, and stop the insanity of deporting so many by doing their job, even those having to serve an odious intolerant swine.
9
German Americans are the largest U.S. ancestry groups. About eight million Germans immigrated to America in the 1800s. Donald Trump's grandfather came from Bavaria in 1885 and had no need to lies about his nation origin.
3
If the Times and the Democratic Party keep on advocating for these undocumented immigrants, the Democrats are going to find themselves even more un-electable than they currently are. This is playing right into the Republicans hands. If these immigrants had taken the legal route to residency, they would have no need to fear the government or anybody else.
103
As usual, you not only fail to acknowledge that being here illegally is... Illegal, but also to lay out in clear terms why having all these people here illegally is good for us. You know, the legal citizens of this country. It's a given that living here, as bad as you make out u.s. citizens to be, is certainly better than whatever paradise these people came from. By this line of tortured logic we should welcome everyone on earth here. After all, it would be good for them, and that's all that matters. No ones buying this anymore. Immigration has to be controlled, studied, by the rules (no exceptions) and in the end, benefit us. All other considerations are secondary. The blind sheik ( that just died in prison) is a notable example of an immigration system out of control. He came here legally.
80
Obama administration set rrecords for deportations in his first term. It cost a lot. Why do you want to pay more in taxes for more border security (when the southern border is safer than ever before) and the only way to deport 11 million it to raise taxes and suspend the 4th Amendment to the Constitution?
What does Melania contribute to the American economy? Was her move to the United States warranted? This is a serious question, for she just decided to pull up stakes in Slovenia before meeting Donald to work in an irregular fashion in the United States. You should demonstrate a bit of coherence in your arguments before tarring and feathering all foreigners. Cannot wait to hear about the stories of American harvests rotting on the vine and on the ground when the foreign itnerant workers are no longer around to do the heavy moving most red-blooded American citizens would not stoop to do anymore.
1
Another absurd twisting of facts, logic and reality to make your racist point.
Trump's cynical ploys to generate irrational fear of those from outside are a deflection away from real, immediate internal threats.
The biggest threats to our "law and order" are not those crossing the border illegally, they are people like Trump who brazenly break laws - defrauding students, groping women, stiffing workers and vendors, discriminating in housing, etc...
The biggest threats to our safety are not from refugees fleeing for their own lives, they are from the likes of Trump and Flynn, colluding with an foreign government, then lying to cover up them selling out our government to an adversarial one.
The immigrants and the refugees are people trying to survive. Trump and his ilk would turn up the heat on them before letting you see through the smoke to their own criminality.
The biggest threats to our "law and order" are not those crossing the border illegally, they are people like Trump who brazenly break laws - defrauding students, groping women, stiffing workers and vendors, discriminating in housing, etc...
The biggest threats to our safety are not from refugees fleeing for their own lives, they are from the likes of Trump and Flynn, colluding with an foreign government, then lying to cover up them selling out our government to an adversarial one.
The immigrants and the refugees are people trying to survive. Trump and his ilk would turn up the heat on them before letting you see through the smoke to their own criminality.
25
I am proud of the millions who are resisting the evil of these power mad oligarchs. I am ashamed of those who support this evil, and they should be ashamed of themselves. They will change their minds only when trump turns his illegal terror machine on them, personally, and he will. Just give him time. It won't be too great.
16
It's not evil to have immigration laws. The people who should be ashamed of themselves here are Mexico's greedy oligarchs not our law abiding citizenry.
6
The 'power mad oligarchs' that you refer to are all PRO-immigration. They positively salivate at the prospect of millions fighting for slave wages so that they can maximize the profits they subsequently stash away in international tax havens.
4
The Times editorial board supports open borders. Most Americans do not.
I see no evidence of an "anti-immigrant fever" in the U.S. What I do see is a desire to scale back immigration (not end it, just reduce it) to manageable levels.
Progressives failure to distinguish between those who are "anti-immigrant" and those who want less immigration cost us the Presidency last November. It's time we woke up and rethought our views on this issue.
I see no evidence of an "anti-immigrant fever" in the U.S. What I do see is a desire to scale back immigration (not end it, just reduce it) to manageable levels.
Progressives failure to distinguish between those who are "anti-immigrant" and those who want less immigration cost us the Presidency last November. It's time we woke up and rethought our views on this issue.
128
Why should it be scaled back? Unemployment is low. The problem in not available jobs but that employers feel no pressure to pay employees more.
Philip--Completely wrong. Abjectly wrong. Result? trump, pense, bannon, flynn, spicer, conway, sessions, mnuchin, miller, carson, tillerson, etc., etc., etc., and tens of millions of critically frighten Americans. Glad you like this. Now, we know all we need to know about you.
1
Well said. Secure borders, like any real nation on earth has, and immigration reform that works for us first, not just amnesty and ever more immigration do not make the average American a xenophobic racist.
6
Trump began his campaign years ago by lying about Obama's citizenship that he was born in a foreign land thus making him an illegitimate president.
Incredibly, a large number on the right who supports Trump still believe in this lie.
Trump, Bannon and Miller believe in recalibrating the ethnic makeup of the US population by reducing immigration from certain parts of the world.
Protests will help in the short term but the only certain way to stop the danger posed by Trump is to elect to Congress those with backbones willing to mitigate the damage to come in the next four years.
Incredibly, a large number on the right who supports Trump still believe in this lie.
Trump, Bannon and Miller believe in recalibrating the ethnic makeup of the US population by reducing immigration from certain parts of the world.
Protests will help in the short term but the only certain way to stop the danger posed by Trump is to elect to Congress those with backbones willing to mitigate the damage to come in the next four years.
36
Here in Mexico, a young woman I know from an impoverished background started university 3 weeks ago, first in family, set to change generational poverty pattern. She dropped out this week when her father who is funding her education from his 3 jobs, went underground in fear, undocumented worker. Trump effect spreads far and wide.
4
Sending Mexicans back to Mexico is not spreading fear.
5
Right, because it my job as an american to financially support the economic well being of peope in other countries, got it.
So when are you going to hire the father, and pay for her college?
So when are you going to hire the father, and pay for her college?
6
Perhaps Mexico should consider helping their own people, instead of outsourcing their obligations to the US taxpayers.
Or perhaps Canada could accept more Mexican immigrants? Wait...itappears not...
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/05/06/canada-mulls-lifting-visa-requireme...
"...government imposed visa restrictions on Mexico in 2009, citing a need to curb asylum claims -- in 2008, there were more than 9,000, making up nearly a quarter of all claims filed that year. The majority were rejected as unfounded.
After the visa was introduced, the number of claims fell to 1,199, the cost plunged from $304 million to $44 million; immigration violations dropped from 9,000 in 2006 to 3,500 in 2010, according to a 2012 evaluation of the program..."
Or perhaps Canada could accept more Mexican immigrants? Wait...itappears not...
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/05/06/canada-mulls-lifting-visa-requireme...
"...government imposed visa restrictions on Mexico in 2009, citing a need to curb asylum claims -- in 2008, there were more than 9,000, making up nearly a quarter of all claims filed that year. The majority were rejected as unfounded.
After the visa was introduced, the number of claims fell to 1,199, the cost plunged from $304 million to $44 million; immigration violations dropped from 9,000 in 2006 to 3,500 in 2010, according to a 2012 evaluation of the program..."
6
Living in Phoenix, I have come to know a good number of illegals. They are not particularly timid and they do not shake in their boots. They crossed into the US, knowing what their status would be. Most paid so-called coyotes for transport knowing the risks they ran. And most came here to join family or make more money. Few fled from places like Syria. They simply did a cost benefit analysis and decided that being here was better than wherever they were. Characterizing them as meek and as victims of terrible forces is a demeaning description that has no truth in fact. Making up the character and an illusory self-pity is inaccurate, insulting, and makes a proud people seem pathetic.
39
Thats what liberals, the national democratic party and the NYT with their lunatic agenda does, try to create victims with identity politics, so that the various groups they've chosen can feel that they need to be "helped" and "protected" from everyone else. That's their means of building a voting bloc to count on in future elections, and why the dems push for illegal aliens so hard; many vote illegally or will gain the right to vote in the near future, and the dems expect them to vote democratic as a return of the favor of letting them stay. It is a heinous, treasonous plot by the wretched national democratic party, one they've applied since 1965, but that unfrotunately, the awful NYT has been behind since being bought out by carlos slim a few ears ago.
3
I'm here legally by birthright, having been born in the great state of Indiana. It is not something I had to earn. I have just one long-time friend who is "illegal". He's lived and worked here for some 15 years, and is just now returning to his birth country due to job loss and consequent lack of money. I'm glad I've been his friend. We've shared laughs and adventures and a few mistakes too.
That is what I see as the difference between "legal" and "illegal" - circumstance. But it also begs the question - what do national borders even mean when they are porous? What kind of stew do we wish to brew in this melting pot?
That is what I see as the difference between "legal" and "illegal" - circumstance. But it also begs the question - what do national borders even mean when they are porous? What kind of stew do we wish to brew in this melting pot?
21
Whatever anti-immigrant fever that the Editorial Board detects in the will of The People has far more to do with the understanding that The Law is The Law and that those that willfully break The Law to enter this country, and willfully continue to break The Law as the remain here than anything else.
What is it that the esteemed Editorial Board can't understand about enforcing The Laws as they have been duly legislated by Congress and signed into law by a President?
What is it that the esteemed Editorial Board can't understand about enforcing The Laws as they have been duly legislated by Congress and signed into law by a President?
63
The law of supply and demand has not been repealed, and it applies to the size of a labor pool; the larger the available labor is, the less leverage individual workers have, and the more wages decline. Cesar Chavez understood this fact.
3
Thank you for suggesting working with Kelly. I am no supporter of our current president, but there must be some hope that there are rational, compassionate people somewhere in our federal leadership who will call a halt to inhumane roundups and separating children from their parents. I think we also must focus on those industries that rely on undocumented/low paid immigrants and get away with it every day. I recently read an article about agribusiness folks in California's Central Valley who voted for Trump and now are terrified that he's going to take away their cheap labor. THESE are the people who should be called out and penalized, not the people who come into the country with the explicit or implicit promise of work, with great hardship, in order to do what we ALL do as human beings, which is try to make a better life for ourselves and our families. Undocumented immigrants are an engine for our economy; they work growing and making our food, taking care of our children and elderly. Stigmatizing/or deporting them will not help anyone in this country. Only changing our system in thoughtful and effective ways, so that we can identify and monitor those business owners that rely on them for labor (and often are the ones arranging for the use of fake SSNs, etc.), will remedy the current situation.
4
You don't get to give birth in my living room and then tell me you own my house. Illegals wanting a better life can go home and get one there.
4
Thank you! I, too, am waiting for those who employ these men and women to stand up on behalf of their workers and demand that we come up with a just plan for comprehensive immigration reform.
1
You know, the sad thing is, every single white person in this country is either an immigrant or is descended from immigrants -- many of whom had fled the consequences of unsavory actions in Europe or elsewhere, and some of whom had brutalized and all but exterminated the Native American tribes that initially helped them to survive here.
So today, their sense of exclusive entitlement to a land that their ancestors invaded and stole from brown-skinned peoples is not only repugnant and ahistorical, but a frightening throwback to a less enlightened time.
Until Election Day in November of 2016, it was possible to believe that white Americans were at least evolving into a species of greater grace -- more accepting of other cultures and creeds.
We seem, however, since the onset of the Trump era, to have reentered the Dark Ages.
We must not forget that the Electoral College -- itself a throwback to a meaner era -- and NOT the majority of the American people elected Donald Trump. We must not forget that Donald Trump is a con man, for whom lying is like breathing. We must not forget that the MAJORITY of us -- by three million, at least -- are better than that. And when the time is right, we must drive Donald Trump's mean, dark cabal from power.
So today, their sense of exclusive entitlement to a land that their ancestors invaded and stole from brown-skinned peoples is not only repugnant and ahistorical, but a frightening throwback to a less enlightened time.
Until Election Day in November of 2016, it was possible to believe that white Americans were at least evolving into a species of greater grace -- more accepting of other cultures and creeds.
We seem, however, since the onset of the Trump era, to have reentered the Dark Ages.
We must not forget that the Electoral College -- itself a throwback to a meaner era -- and NOT the majority of the American people elected Donald Trump. We must not forget that Donald Trump is a con man, for whom lying is like breathing. We must not forget that the MAJORITY of us -- by three million, at least -- are better than that. And when the time is right, we must drive Donald Trump's mean, dark cabal from power.
9
Many Latino illegals identify as white. They're descended from colonists who conquered much of South America. Let them take care of their own underclass.
3
Maryanne Conheim - "You know, the sad thing is, every single white person in this country is either an immigrant or is descended from immigrants -"
Why only "WHITE" people? Every person in the United States is either an immigrant or descended from immigrants is the more correct sentence. "Native Americans" did not sprout up from the American soil, they too immigrated to the United States albeit a longer time ago.
Speaking of time how far back do you want to go with your definition of "immigrant" since at one time ALL humans immigrated to different lands around the globe. All the nations of the world have borders and those borders must be respected including those of the United States.
Why only "WHITE" people? Every person in the United States is either an immigrant or descended from immigrants is the more correct sentence. "Native Americans" did not sprout up from the American soil, they too immigrated to the United States albeit a longer time ago.
Speaking of time how far back do you want to go with your definition of "immigrant" since at one time ALL humans immigrated to different lands around the globe. All the nations of the world have borders and those borders must be respected including those of the United States.
1
False equivalence. Everybody on earth, unless you're from east Africa is an immigrant or descended from one. This means nothing. Should we take in the 3-4 billion people who want to come here because the continent was empty 200 years ago? Ridiculous. We need to control our borders and carefully select who comes here. It is not 1900. There are 320 million American now. This requires it.
3
Many readers stress the illegality of many immigrants' presence. But they fail to see that the focus of the Bannon-Miller-Trump extreme right (NOT 'alt-right, please) line on immigration and refugees is not built on legality but on hate. Legality, if Trump's attitude to the courts is any indication, means nothing to them.
If legality was their focus, why would they include in the ban green-card holders and people who had already been vetted much more thoroughly than anyone in Trump's cabinet? Why would they conduct deportations with no 'priority list', as Obama did? Indiscriminate deportations are good news for illegals with a criminal background!
No, their aim is hatred, fear and polarization, and it's up to citizens to protest this policy of division.
In this, Americans are not alone: witness yesterday's massive demonstration in Barcelona demanding *more*. not fewer, refugees.
Anger, fear, and hatred are grist to Bannon's mill. Don't succumb to it.
If legality was their focus, why would they include in the ban green-card holders and people who had already been vetted much more thoroughly than anyone in Trump's cabinet? Why would they conduct deportations with no 'priority list', as Obama did? Indiscriminate deportations are good news for illegals with a criminal background!
No, their aim is hatred, fear and polarization, and it's up to citizens to protest this policy of division.
In this, Americans are not alone: witness yesterday's massive demonstration in Barcelona demanding *more*. not fewer, refugees.
Anger, fear, and hatred are grist to Bannon's mill. Don't succumb to it.
11
The only anger and hatred I see is that directed to those who do not agree we need open borders.
5
The United States has, does, and will continue to have the most robust influx of legal immigration on planet Earth. However, illegal immigration, and intentionally ignoring any foreign nations immigration law is a completely different matter. Correlating the two is a false narrative. Essentially, fake news.
88
The focus should not be on the President, but rather on the Congress.
The Legislative Branch's persistent refusal to pass immigration reform is the cause of this wave of executive orders and resulting street protests. Passing the power of the Senate to a temporary dictator worked out pretty well for the barbarians they were trying to repel, but not so well for the Roman Republic.
The Legislative Branch's persistent refusal to pass immigration reform is the cause of this wave of executive orders and resulting street protests. Passing the power of the Senate to a temporary dictator worked out pretty well for the barbarians they were trying to repel, but not so well for the Roman Republic.
7
The Legislative Branch's persistent refusal to pass immigration reform is the cause of this wave of executive orders
==================
Ironically enough, the EOs pertaining to border security are directions to agencies to enforce current laws ignored by the previous administration
==================
Ironically enough, the EOs pertaining to border security are directions to agencies to enforce current laws ignored by the previous administration
2
Trumpian hostility to immigrants reveals a hostility and disloyalty to the reality of the United States. This anti-immigrant movement, as it was in the 1920s, is rooted in racist social Darwinism. These people don't believe our country is the "land of opportunity." Instead they believe we are the land of opportunists.
That, in part, is why they discount the ample evidence of renewal and entrepreneurship revealed in every study of immigration impact. They live in a savage, distrustful world. I pray they don't drag us all in with them.
That, in part, is why they discount the ample evidence of renewal and entrepreneurship revealed in every study of immigration impact. They live in a savage, distrustful world. I pray they don't drag us all in with them.
5
Hostility to ILLEGAL immigration
Things will get worst long before they get better. I fear that this represents a historical period where America will have to learn a good lesson the hard war before reason and justice return to the land.
Repeat after me - illegal immigrants. Now you aren't lying about what is happening. US laws are finally being enforced.
3
I just hope that in addition to deporting illegal immigrants, those employers who employ them are also fined. This should include anyone who abuses the H1-B and other programs to bring in cheap labor. The problem is not immigration, it is illegal immigration and another lecture by this paper is not going to change people's opinions. That is why Trump won the election.
100
Agree. Let's start with fining Trump who just now got a lot of H1-B visas for workers for his Trump Vineyard.
1
Open borders won't work in America, they just mean that progressive social programs become impossible.
The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights says countries have a right to control borders and to deport. There is nothing anti-immigrant in Comprehensive Immigration Reform that includes strong borders and penalties for violating the border laws.
I really, really don't understand why Congress cannot get Comprehensive Immigration Reform laws on the books. How hard is it to say we have a path of citizenship for those here, but that the border is the border, and from now on, all who violate it will never be able to return, and if they do cross they will be deported.
Oh right, all the Republican candidates who said that were defeated. Guess America really does want the "fists pounding on the door...the agents in black..." . It will be an ugly time for all.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights says countries have a right to control borders and to deport. There is nothing anti-immigrant in Comprehensive Immigration Reform that includes strong borders and penalties for violating the border laws.
I really, really don't understand why Congress cannot get Comprehensive Immigration Reform laws on the books. How hard is it to say we have a path of citizenship for those here, but that the border is the border, and from now on, all who violate it will never be able to return, and if they do cross they will be deported.
Oh right, all the Republican candidates who said that were defeated. Guess America really does want the "fists pounding on the door...the agents in black..." . It will be an ugly time for all.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
24
We tried amnesty in 1986. All we got was more illegals, No more amnesty and no more illegals.
2
"Comprehensive Immigration Reform" is just newspeak for amnesty for those who willingly broke our laws, and will result in the open borders crowd doing everything they can to stop further enforcement and will result in MORE illegal immigration - after all, that's the DNC's plan - turn the USA into a one party state with the elites like the NYT editors dictating to the "deplorables" what is best for them.
6
I really, really don't understand why Congress cannot get Comprehensive Immigration Reform laws on the books. How hard is it to say we have a path of citizenship for those here, but that the border is the border, and from now on, all who violate it will never be able to return, and if they do cross they will be deported.
====================
Well we did that back in 1986 - amnesty for illegals and the borders were supposed to be sealed.
And here we are today back in the same situation after years of NY Times and Democrats trying to import a new electorate
====================
Well we did that back in 1986 - amnesty for illegals and the borders were supposed to be sealed.
And here we are today back in the same situation after years of NY Times and Democrats trying to import a new electorate
3
Allowing immigration (and tolerating illegal instances) is a policy choice that offers little or nothing of value to either society or the economic well being of the average american in 2017. Was there a time when it did? Perhaps back some decades ago or in the 19th century (unless you were a native American) but not today.
Now we are seeing the costs associated with our immigration policies: protests, fear, intimidation, exploitation and hate crimes... all these costs for nothing in return.
It's not worth it.
Now we are seeing the costs associated with our immigration policies: protests, fear, intimidation, exploitation and hate crimes... all these costs for nothing in return.
It's not worth it.
65
We need to fix this illegal immigration problem once and for all. Securing our borders would be nice, but that is never going to happen. It's too costly. The problem we have now is that it is possible for people to enter the US across our borders and we do not have a record.
So what should we do? Everyone entering into the US from Mexico and Canada across the border get "registered" into the system. Produce a valid passport from a foreign government and you get fingerprinted, picture, etc. recorded and you get vetted We should be able to vet people at the border fairly quickly. If they "pass", give them a social security card and visa. The marketplace will take care of the rest. If they cannot find a job, they're now in the system and the system can control access to any public benefits.
Show up with a passport from a country that is on a list of nations that we do not trust for documentation? You're not allowed into the country.
Once in the US, if you do not have your documents, then you get deported because there will be absolutely no excuse for not having the appropriate documentation.
The sticky problem is getting the people here illegally to get registered in the system and vetted. That would have to be handled on a case by case basis because as others have pointed out, there are a LOT of shades of gray out there.
In the end though, whatever gets done has be simple to implement. For it is complexity in solutions where they fail.
So what should we do? Everyone entering into the US from Mexico and Canada across the border get "registered" into the system. Produce a valid passport from a foreign government and you get fingerprinted, picture, etc. recorded and you get vetted We should be able to vet people at the border fairly quickly. If they "pass", give them a social security card and visa. The marketplace will take care of the rest. If they cannot find a job, they're now in the system and the system can control access to any public benefits.
Show up with a passport from a country that is on a list of nations that we do not trust for documentation? You're not allowed into the country.
Once in the US, if you do not have your documents, then you get deported because there will be absolutely no excuse for not having the appropriate documentation.
The sticky problem is getting the people here illegally to get registered in the system and vetted. That would have to be handled on a case by case basis because as others have pointed out, there are a LOT of shades of gray out there.
In the end though, whatever gets done has be simple to implement. For it is complexity in solutions where they fail.
18
This analysis completely ignores the purpose of immigration law, which is difficult by design. The wish and desire to have a better life is shared by virtually every Human Being on Earth. There are over seven billion people on this planet. Many billions are desperately poor, and would immigrate immediately to a developed nation if it was a sure and easy endeavor. The quant days of yesteryear and welcoming the tired and hungry masses is no longer a practical or sustainable solution in contemporary times. Rich nations must direct their attention to helping the less fortunate to grow where they are planted.
4
The flood of legal immigrants since 1965 and the toleration of millions of illegal immigrants - in spite of the fact that we were told by both parties the immigration laws would be enforced after 1986 - has ruined the quality of life for ordinary American citizens. This tsunami of immigrants,legal and illegal, has driven up the cost of housing, increased the competition for jobs, intensified environmental degradation, and swallowed tax dollars by increasing demand for public services. The "anti-immigrant fever" is long overdue, and will serve the interests of ordinary American citizens.
43
Absolutely correct. The 1965 immigration act should be repealed. It was never meant as an open borders, come one, come all, wave as it has morphed into. Immigration should be about what is best for the u.s. and its citizens based on real issues not feel good cliches. Every other nation does this. It's not racist to do what every other country on earth does.
3
I see that difference, as we all should. Where I think the editors have a real leg to stand on is their contention that law enforcement (of ALL kinds) should be done with discretion, common sense, and first and foremost in the name of public safety and respect for the Constitution. And where they cite examples of the law being enforced in ways that seem to stray from that. Once that line gets crossed too often and too much, then we are "demonizing and dehumanizing" people for no good reason. Resisting the administration just for enforcing the law - no. Insisting that they do so in ways that are a big reason for why America IS great - yes.
7
Immigration policy is the Democratic Party's "Achilles Heal". We have allowed immigrants to enter the country illegally and unlike marijuana laws, there is no desire to look the other way and allow this condition to continue. The Democratic Party is exclusively blamed for this state of affairs and the resentment about this by the electorate was underestimated by the media especially in their post-election analysis. Given such a clear choice, the majority of Americans will stand and vote on the side of law and order.
What is needed is a plan that demonstrablely prevents further illegal immigration, and that presents a immigration policy that requires the following: an accounting of the status of current undocumented visitors; and, establishing criteria for accepting immigrants that is more in line with the desires of the American people. Until the Democratic Party can agree on such a plan it is unlikely to become a majority party again.
What is needed is a plan that demonstrablely prevents further illegal immigration, and that presents a immigration policy that requires the following: an accounting of the status of current undocumented visitors; and, establishing criteria for accepting immigrants that is more in line with the desires of the American people. Until the Democratic Party can agree on such a plan it is unlikely to become a majority party again.
40
Is a belief existing immigration law which has been in place since the 1980's "anti-immigrant fever"? I don't think there is much bias toward legal immigrants. As for those in the country who bypass our laws at their pleasure and for their convenience, there is a weariness. Why can't they simply obey the law?
By characterizing opposition to violators of immigration regulation as racism, proponents of open borders change the subject. But the question which is never answered is simply this-how much undocumented immigration should be permitted? If the answer is a number, any number, it admits the possibility and validity of enforcement. If the answer is there is no limit, then the proponent advocates for chaos.
Entry into Mexico without authorization is a felony and punishable by three years in prison. Every country enforces limits on immigration. So when does wanting to belong to a club which every one of our neighbors belongs to become an "anti-immigrant fever"?
By characterizing opposition to violators of immigration regulation as racism, proponents of open borders change the subject. But the question which is never answered is simply this-how much undocumented immigration should be permitted? If the answer is a number, any number, it admits the possibility and validity of enforcement. If the answer is there is no limit, then the proponent advocates for chaos.
Entry into Mexico without authorization is a felony and punishable by three years in prison. Every country enforces limits on immigration. So when does wanting to belong to a club which every one of our neighbors belongs to become an "anti-immigrant fever"?
35
The Constitution delegates immigration policy to Congress, which makes immigration law. The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which President Bill Clinton signed into law in 1996, passed with board bipartisan support in both houses. It calls for the deportation of foreign nationals unlawfully present in the United States. The “Take Care Clause” of the Constitution tasks presidents to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. So Donald Trump is complying with the Constitution when he enforces immigration laws
31
While this too shall pass there is no escaping the misery, injustice, and yes death that this crackdown on immigrants, or anyone who looks like immigrants, is and will bring. It may well become another huge black spot on our national character & conscience like slavery, segregation, and the interment of the Americans of Japanese decent.
The only solutions available now are those mentioned. Sanctuary, legal action, protests and civil disobedience. Our next shot at a brake on these malevolent reactionarys will not be till Nov. 2018. Unfortunately it will be helpful to highlight these ugly & cruel treatment of human beings to help change peoples minds about just who is governing us. And throw the reactionarys in Congress out of office next chance we get. By then we will know where we are and just who is responsible for all this inhumanity.
But right now we must all resist. Anyway & every way we can.
The only solutions available now are those mentioned. Sanctuary, legal action, protests and civil disobedience. Our next shot at a brake on these malevolent reactionarys will not be till Nov. 2018. Unfortunately it will be helpful to highlight these ugly & cruel treatment of human beings to help change peoples minds about just who is governing us. And throw the reactionarys in Congress out of office next chance we get. By then we will know where we are and just who is responsible for all this inhumanity.
But right now we must all resist. Anyway & every way we can.
5
The Japanese Americans were here legally. The Mexicans aren't. Let them go home and fix up Mexico.
4
The owners of the New York Times and their various "liberal" business friends need a vibrant economy based on unhampered immigration to insure the wages earned by real citizens can be collapsed. More competition for jobs, lower wages, more profit. These media owners are desperate to give the appearance of taking some higher moral ground on human rights while in reality they are busily and purposefully jeopardizing the integrity of good jobs for American citizens. If people are being scammed it's not by Trump on this issue but by those screaming for the status quo and open doors.
50
Yes, and of course, having Carlos Slim, the richest man in Mexico a major owner in the NY Times, means that the NY Times will reflect Mr. Slim's agenda and NOT what's good for the American people and the USA.
2
It's important to note that all of this sturm und drang going on in the president's head is occurring when there is no major catastrophe in national or foreign affairs that calls for presidential action. The only looming disasters, like the one victimizing immigrants, are the ones he is creating himself. Wait until there is a real emergency. That may be what it will take to finally shatter his base's delusions.
3
There is a distinction between lawful immigration - and unauthorized/illegal immigration, and Trump was able to see that as an issue and exploit it. The Democrats however, seemed to conflate legal with illegal migration - and that may have cost them many votes. A January 2017 Pew Research Center poll shows just how conflicted Americans are in regards to illegal immigration: 58% said we should increase deportation, 73% said Illegal migrants should not receive US benefits, and 77% said we should have stricter policies so people don't overstay their visas....and yet - 73% also said that if you came here as a child you should be allowed to stay- and 62% said we should find a way for people who are here illegally to be able to stay. Looking at this, it seems people want to be fair. They don't want children punished for choices their parents made, and they want to create opportunities for people- who are here illegally- to stay. However, at the same time, they want to see consequences for people who break immigration laws. Congress needs to come up laws that address those varied views. Meanwhile, I don't think you can simply describe it as "anti-immigrant fever".
29
"This is not who we are."
On the contrary, it is exactly who we are.
Otherwise, we would never have granted presidential power to Trump. We would never have acted upon the need to scapegoat the most desperate.
Too many failed to vote; others threw their votes away on bogus "third parties," blinding themselves. If Stein/Johnson voters had voted Democratic, Hillary would be president today, and a safe environment would not be facing extinction, along with other values we pretend to care about.
Look in the mirror. We have failed to learn from history, We have brought twentieth century madness to the new millennium.
On the contrary, it is exactly who we are.
Otherwise, we would never have granted presidential power to Trump. We would never have acted upon the need to scapegoat the most desperate.
Too many failed to vote; others threw their votes away on bogus "third parties," blinding themselves. If Stein/Johnson voters had voted Democratic, Hillary would be president today, and a safe environment would not be facing extinction, along with other values we pretend to care about.
Look in the mirror. We have failed to learn from history, We have brought twentieth century madness to the new millennium.
7
Even many liberals want us to enforce our immigration laws.
4
A few things can be done about the eleven million people without valid visas:
1) Those who have overstayed a valid visa should return to their country of citizenship and apply from there. If they have been here several years they can be flagged for quick approval. It would encourage them to follow the rules going forward.
2) Those who never had a visa and just wandered in should also return to their native country and apply for a visa. With a slower approval process; it should dissuade people from completely bypassing the system, without being needlessly harsh. It is not unreasonable to ask that everyone who enters the country has a passport and permission.
The US can be a great place to live, it's great that people want to come and live and work in the US, the government can teach them to follow the rules at least a little bit. No in-place visas for people here less than ten years, it isn't a harsh punishment to have to go home and stand in line at the consulate.
1) Those who have overstayed a valid visa should return to their country of citizenship and apply from there. If they have been here several years they can be flagged for quick approval. It would encourage them to follow the rules going forward.
2) Those who never had a visa and just wandered in should also return to their native country and apply for a visa. With a slower approval process; it should dissuade people from completely bypassing the system, without being needlessly harsh. It is not unreasonable to ask that everyone who enters the country has a passport and permission.
The US can be a great place to live, it's great that people want to come and live and work in the US, the government can teach them to follow the rules at least a little bit. No in-place visas for people here less than ten years, it isn't a harsh punishment to have to go home and stand in line at the consulate.
13
Illegal immigrants who come to the US are largely doing the jobs that Americans don't want to do. There are large sectors of the US economy that would collapse without them. Now, after exploiting them for decades, many Americans want to see them gone. Putting aside the obvious lack of compassion and basic decency entailed by such attitudes, who will do the jobs that they leave? Already, parts of the California agriculture industry fear collapse because of a loss of workers. How many other states will experience the same situation? It's time for Americans to realize that the "illegals" they hate so much are a vital part of the US economy.
7
Not true. Please educate yourself. http://www.pewhispanic.org/2016/11/03/industries-of-unauthorized-immigra...
3
Nonsense.
They're doing those jobs at lousy wages that have pushed down wages for natives. Compassion does not mean importing foreign scabs.
They're doing those jobs at lousy wages that have pushed down wages for natives. Compassion does not mean importing foreign scabs.
4
This is more of the hypocrisy of the left. We need illegals so we can exploit them to save money. First, this is wrong. Flooding the market, any market with labor lowers the price that labor is worth. Is that what we want? Continue the race to the bottom? I'm not sure what you do, but I'm sure, unless you're a trust funder, you don't want several people to show up who will do it for less. If businesses have to pay legal workers more, that's the right thing to do. I for one, do not want to live in a third world country.
4
For those who claim that this administration is about illegal immigrants only, look at the travel ban.
Visas cancelled. These are people who lawfully applied to enter the US months in advance from outside the US and were vetted to do so.
All refugees halted. People who have undergone eighteen months plus of vetting, some of them in life threatening situations, such as Iraqi interpreters who helped the US army.
Green card holders were stopped at the border. These are people whose lives and families are in the US for years, if not decades, who have been extensively background checked before the green card was granted. The DHS even asked and got a clarification from the White house that green card holders were included in the ban.
All the above were legal, vetted immigrants whose lives were upended due to what can correctly be described as malevolent incompetence.
I will never believe a word that comes out of Trumps mouth. The actions of his government are all that matter. He can talk all he wants about treating DACA recipients with heart, but tell that to a dreamer who the ICE detains pending deportation.
Visas cancelled. These are people who lawfully applied to enter the US months in advance from outside the US and were vetted to do so.
All refugees halted. People who have undergone eighteen months plus of vetting, some of them in life threatening situations, such as Iraqi interpreters who helped the US army.
Green card holders were stopped at the border. These are people whose lives and families are in the US for years, if not decades, who have been extensively background checked before the green card was granted. The DHS even asked and got a clarification from the White house that green card holders were included in the ban.
All the above were legal, vetted immigrants whose lives were upended due to what can correctly be described as malevolent incompetence.
I will never believe a word that comes out of Trumps mouth. The actions of his government are all that matter. He can talk all he wants about treating DACA recipients with heart, but tell that to a dreamer who the ICE detains pending deportation.
13
No more of a deception than the left's refusal to distinguish between legal and illegal migration.
3
For those who claim that this administration is about illegal immigrants only, look at the travel ban.
=======================
It wasn't a "ban" it was a 90 day suspension from high risk countries (identified by the Obama administration) to review vetting processes and procedures.
Similar to one enacted by Obama in 2011
=======================
It wasn't a "ban" it was a 90 day suspension from high risk countries (identified by the Obama administration) to review vetting processes and procedures.
Similar to one enacted by Obama in 2011
2
I am an Anthropologists and educator so have watched all of this with a sense of pain. One of my favorite students was born in the United States to Mexican parents. His first real language was Mexican at home. So he served in Iraq for two tours and came to a community college. He was tested upon entry and was at risk for English, Math, and Reading. He had to take remedial courses in all of those areas. He struggled with Math. An advisor told him maybe college was not a reality since he never could get through college algebra. He was in my class and at the end of the semester told me how much he enjoyed my class. He said all he ever wanted to do was come to college to learn. I had taught him a lot about the world.
All he wanted to do was improve himself and be the first person in family to graduate from college. He is what people for hundreds of years have done in this country: try to improve themselves. He served this country and he had a dream. He was born in the United States and is an American. This country is about dreams.
I cannot communicate the resentment I had when my wife immigrated here. No one had a heart in the process. We in America and in ICE and in immigration need a heart when it comes to what is happening.
All he wanted to do was improve himself and be the first person in family to graduate from college. He is what people for hundreds of years have done in this country: try to improve themselves. He served this country and he had a dream. He was born in the United States and is an American. This country is about dreams.
I cannot communicate the resentment I had when my wife immigrated here. No one had a heart in the process. We in America and in ICE and in immigration need a heart when it comes to what is happening.
7
Why can't Mexicans take care of their own people?
3
As an anthropologist, I would expect you to know that there is no "Mexican" language. The vast majority of Mexicans speak Spanish as a first language. There are also millions of speakers of indigenous languages, such as Nahuatl and Yucatec Maya.
3
His first real language was Mexican at home.
=========================
I seriously doubt that you have any degrees in Anthropology if you think people speak in "Mexican"
=========================
I seriously doubt that you have any degrees in Anthropology if you think people speak in "Mexican"
2
Immigration reform is no more about race than it was when the Bush administration stopped securing the Mexican border at the insistence of his buddies in the Chsmber of Commerce.
Rather, for most of us it is about the rule of law and the exponential growth in the flow of meth and heroin across the border. The oversupply of cheap drugs in our small towns has destroyed an entire generation. It's root cause is not demand, but rather a porous border.
NAFTA created a manufacturing middle class in Mexico at the expense of our middle class. But that agreement did not surrender the sovereignty of our country to control immigration.
Rather, for most of us it is about the rule of law and the exponential growth in the flow of meth and heroin across the border. The oversupply of cheap drugs in our small towns has destroyed an entire generation. It's root cause is not demand, but rather a porous border.
NAFTA created a manufacturing middle class in Mexico at the expense of our middle class. But that agreement did not surrender the sovereignty of our country to control immigration.
39
Mass protests only inflame the feeling that we are helpless to control our borders; that we must accept any and all migrants regardless of legal status; regardless the consequences to our own citizens. That we have no national sovereignty and no choice. That we live in a chaotic society where lawless opportunism is rewarded and it's every man for himself.
Mass protests drive people who would otherwise be reasonable into more extreme positions.
Mass protests drive people who would otherwise be reasonable into more extreme positions.
42
Immigration has changed. The United States is full of generations of people who had to assimilate to be Americans. People who had to change or mispronounce their own names to fit in. The Gagliones and the Gagnons for example. Now we have some sort of multi-cultural approach where folks don't have to change to fit in. They don't change their names, learn English or want to adapt their violent foreign religious practices to be part of the American cultural scene.
That's not immigration, it's an invasion.
That's not immigration, it's an invasion.
51
Government failed us hugely by allowing decades of impunity for the millions of illegals and has created a situation with only painful solutions. California, especially, is headed for fiscal disaster with too much immigration, too many poor people, fleeing taxpayers, growing pensions/debt, drought, overcrowding, bad jobs, masses of uneducated, superfluous young people, and a huge welfare state. If we expel millions of undocumented poor, our economy will likely crash; if we keep them, we insult the law abiding citizens, put unbearable burdens on them and their children, and tax the middle class into a rage.
17
The Hispanic/Latinx community would do well to ban together with their allies to challenge the racism apparent in some of immigration policy and Trump's recent actions.
Yes, there's a way to legally immigrate into this country, but are the current laws fair?
If manual laborers are primarily from the Americas, and presumably with less institutional education than those coming for different jobs, regardless of their origin, then presumably this fact plays into the distortion and racism of those against any immigrants who look different than they're own group, whether they be here legally or not. If they are migrants must they go back or do we owe their children an education and a chance at a better life?
Shining the light on the value of all people and the mistaken ignorance of racism is a priority in our nation.
Beware those who will try to distract with a Reichstag fire event. What's to prevent this administration from abusing its power further, except each one of us doing the right thing.
Yes, there's a way to legally immigrate into this country, but are the current laws fair?
If manual laborers are primarily from the Americas, and presumably with less institutional education than those coming for different jobs, regardless of their origin, then presumably this fact plays into the distortion and racism of those against any immigrants who look different than they're own group, whether they be here legally or not. If they are migrants must they go back or do we owe their children an education and a chance at a better life?
Shining the light on the value of all people and the mistaken ignorance of racism is a priority in our nation.
Beware those who will try to distract with a Reichstag fire event. What's to prevent this administration from abusing its power further, except each one of us doing the right thing.
3
Thank you for this editorial and for the NYT reporting on these issues. I can already envision the avalanche of comments that are going to get smacked onto this message, beginning with Mr. Luettgen's thoroughly tiresome all-caps. He conveniently forgets that whatever happens to be ILLEGAL is a creation of Congress - a governmental body that is charged with passing and amending laws in the best interests of the United States of America. Who in their right mind is arguing that U.S. immigration law is working for the good of the nation?
It is all to convenient for authoritarian strongmen to demand the dehumanization and demonization of a large part of a national community without trying to make things any better for anyone. I live in a small city that is about 45% Hispanic. The economy is largely dependent on agriculture. It took an ACLU lawsuit to get someone with a Hispanic surname elected to the city council and now we have three. Believe me when I say that was the best thing to happen to this town in decades.
Insisting on the humanity of people on the wrong side of immigration law when dealing with the likes of Mr. Leuttgen et al. is like trying to have an adult conversation with someone having a meltdown worthy of a 2-year old. But, we persist. We move forward. We are not alone and we are the majority. Never doubt that.
It is all to convenient for authoritarian strongmen to demand the dehumanization and demonization of a large part of a national community without trying to make things any better for anyone. I live in a small city that is about 45% Hispanic. The economy is largely dependent on agriculture. It took an ACLU lawsuit to get someone with a Hispanic surname elected to the city council and now we have three. Believe me when I say that was the best thing to happen to this town in decades.
Insisting on the humanity of people on the wrong side of immigration law when dealing with the likes of Mr. Leuttgen et al. is like trying to have an adult conversation with someone having a meltdown worthy of a 2-year old. But, we persist. We move forward. We are not alone and we are the majority. Never doubt that.
5
What is the good of the nation by telling every last living Mexican to move here so you can feel good? Where is the humanity of the American people and our right to determine the good of this nation?
3
Except for extreme xenophobes, there are all sorts if ambiguities which a nature and compassionate society would embrace. We have to alloiw for special circumstances while avoiding the militarization of border enforcement. We need reasonable border safeguards while avoiding billions of dollars on walls that will not be cost effective but will take funds from infrastructure improvements that will actually grow the economy. Anger needs to be balanced by a longterm focus on the big picture. I am not holding my breath.
1
People are fearful and rightly so. The world is undergoing rapid climatic change with dramatic ecological consequences on food production and water supply not to mention the inevitable coastal flooding. Can any nation's social fabric be stretched enough to absorb these millions of displaced populations. I think not. A global plan must be developed that doesn't require massive immigration. This causes the destruction of local cultural identities.
14
Where does it come from - where is the evidence - that immigrants are a risk or pose a danger to anyone or are terrorists, etc. etc. What we do know is the overwhelming number of Americans who kill each other (gun violence, domestic disputes) number in the tens of thousands. Add to that the tens of thousands killed in the routine and mundane of everyday existence (car accidents, industrial accidents) and the thousands killed in dangerous occupations (fishing, mining, timber, etc.).
Now compare all the preceding to the dangers posed by immigrants. Better yet, compare the preceding to the odds to being a victim of terrorism. Where is the perspective? Where is the sense? Where is the evidence? Yet we have a new administration stroking fears for which there is almost zero evidence and for which billions of tax dollars will be spent in prevention. I just don't get it.
Now compare all the preceding to the dangers posed by immigrants. Better yet, compare the preceding to the odds to being a victim of terrorism. Where is the perspective? Where is the sense? Where is the evidence? Yet we have a new administration stroking fears for which there is almost zero evidence and for which billions of tax dollars will be spent in prevention. I just don't get it.
6
Perhaps our southern border requires an Ellis Island processing center. I think of the millions of "foreigners" who disembarked on our northeastern shore, few speaking English, poorly clothed, poorly educated or unable to apply their education due to language, many escaping punitive governments. That appears to have succeeded although they faced countless prejudices once here and once spreading across the nation. Most attempted assimilation, refusing to speak their native languages at home to speed their children's learning of English; some clustered with other immigrants from their home countries and pockets still exist of some communities that maintained their old customs while superficially adapting. Much of our western region once belonged to Mexico and as a Californian, Spanish place names are more common than English for cities, towns, streets, schools, churches, resorts, hotels. And yet, discrimination was rife and still all too common. Ellis Island processed foreigners, yes, but they were white foreigners. And in time, their dress, their homes, their speech, their values, their aspirations became truly American. But many in the west treat the Spanish-speaking immigrant as a leper, just as the south treated its African forced immigrants as less than a full human being--and still do. Ask them if they voted for Barrack Obama. And when those pious Dixiecrats, the Strom Thurmond, and Jesse Helms, abhorring Civil Rights, rigidity set in. Nixon gave hope to bigotry.
Silly me. I thought this was an editorial encouraging us to take in refugees who had registered with the appropriate agencies. Instead, I'm expected to support those who, by accepting lower wages, deprive our working poor of opportunities.
My father came to this country after WWII with a visa; his family perished because, before the war, they could not. So my sympathy lies with those who comply with our regulations, and especially those fleeing persecution.
My father came to this country after WWII with a visa; his family perished because, before the war, they could not. So my sympathy lies with those who comply with our regulations, and especially those fleeing persecution.
38
For anyone who's had first-hand experience of having witnessed law-abiding citizens of other countries waiting for their Visa Interviews with a US Consulate Immigration Officer, then you'll be among those of us without pity for Illegal Immigrants.
People who immigrate legally have often waited for days, weeks, and months for an Interview. The waiting areas outside the Consulates are often Inhospitable, bleacher-type set ups. People with children Endure blistering sun, driving rain, and other harsh conditions, and are subjected to Very direct questioning.
Applicants may have to return for more of the same, after having been turned-away for insufficient documentation or failing to initially meet qualifying criteria - which is often like moving the goalposts...
While I feel very badly about not expanding the Democratic Voter Base, please Do exercise the Law and promote Deterrence by sending Illegal Immigrants back from whence they came.
People who immigrate legally have often waited for days, weeks, and months for an Interview. The waiting areas outside the Consulates are often Inhospitable, bleacher-type set ups. People with children Endure blistering sun, driving rain, and other harsh conditions, and are subjected to Very direct questioning.
Applicants may have to return for more of the same, after having been turned-away for insufficient documentation or failing to initially meet qualifying criteria - which is often like moving the goalposts...
While I feel very badly about not expanding the Democratic Voter Base, please Do exercise the Law and promote Deterrence by sending Illegal Immigrants back from whence they came.
39
Why not come up with a positive program to deal with the immigration problems we have and quit wasting time on protests that go no where? All the hand wringing in the world plus all the emotional shouting will still leave us wringing hands and making noises and no farther ahead in solving the problem. Let us stop kidding ourselves with ineffective action and let us come up with some specifics. For instance, let us push for a controlled worker program that includes some form of long-term residence and/or citizenship. We could go on endlessly with all the emotional stories and still be no where closer to a constructive answer.
8
We don't need these people here. Period.
3
"Who will do the jobs that no Americans are willing to do if we stop illegal immigration?" the 'liberals' cry.
Well, perhaps the inability of employers to get any workers for miserable jobs with terrible pay will encourage them to improve pay and working conditions.
That used to be the goal of the left in America: better wages, better working conditions, and not just for the hedge fund political donor set.
Now, instead of focusing on actual bread and butter issues for American voters, the left seems intent on protecting the ability of those who are here illegally- and can't vote- to stay.
Dandy.
So we've got a choice between a xenophobic, intellectually stunted, neo-fascist on one side and smug, self-satisfied 'liberals' intent on demonizing anyone interested in even discussing a rational, enforceable immigration policy on the other.
No wonder I feel alienated.
Well, perhaps the inability of employers to get any workers for miserable jobs with terrible pay will encourage them to improve pay and working conditions.
That used to be the goal of the left in America: better wages, better working conditions, and not just for the hedge fund political donor set.
Now, instead of focusing on actual bread and butter issues for American voters, the left seems intent on protecting the ability of those who are here illegally- and can't vote- to stay.
Dandy.
So we've got a choice between a xenophobic, intellectually stunted, neo-fascist on one side and smug, self-satisfied 'liberals' intent on demonizing anyone interested in even discussing a rational, enforceable immigration policy on the other.
No wonder I feel alienated.
55
You're not alone. The left also has to explain how adding the millions they want to come here will positively affect global warming, resource exploitation, open space etc and all the other issues they claim to care about.
3
The problem with immigration is that both sides are unrealistic in their expectations. Trump and his supporters are mean-spirited and racist in language and policy. Clearly the families here illegally for years merit consideration for the status of "registered alien." However, the advocates of immigration are willfully blind to the social turbulence created by the increasing speed of immigration growth over recent decades. Steps need to be taken to address illegal entry (better border security) and the rates of legal immigration. We need to slow things down until society can absorb the newcomers in our midst. This was recommended in the 1970s by the Texas Congresswoman and civil rights icon Barbara Jordan. Perhaps the idea should be revisited.
5
Trump's treatment of immigrants has stopped being for "protection of Americans." It has become a macho vendetta against Trump's opposition, with immigrants as hapless victims being ground up in his deadly games. The spectre of mothers being raided, seized and deported while their U.S. Citizen small children scream in terror is the most cruel and chilling action of the new administration. These innocent victims are being sacrificed to Trump's monumental ego. It is beyond evil. I never thought I would see such wanton cruelty from our chief executive, but Trump is clearly setting a new low standard for every aspect of human decency.
5
They're not hapless victims because they're being asked to go home to Mexico.
3
There is no Anti-Immigrant fever there is an anti illegal alien fury and Trump was elected to quell it. Immigrants who come to this country by virtue of our current laws (legally) are done a dis-service when illegal aliens are classified wrongly as immigrants.Most of these people came here for economic reasons and that is forbidden under current immigration law. The presence of these people here has disenfranchised native born Americans and naturalized citizens as well as those foreigners who are here legally and are eligible to work. They steal jobs and use resources that are very much needed by American citizens struggling to get stability in a competitive and inconstant economy. The examples you cite in the article are unfortunate but these people decided to break the law. They are now interfering in our domestic affairs and demanding that we now dis-regard our laws in order to accommodate them. This is outrageous and unrealistic. The election of Donald Trump is an indication that the illegal immigration party is finally over. Everybody out of the pool and head home.
32
Even if all 11 million undocumented illegals are granted green cards or citizenship, how open should our borders be? Pew Trust just estimated that there are 1 million in LA County and 1 million in Orange County, CA. So is it acceptable to admit any one else who can make it to the U.S.? Two million in LA and 2 million in Orange County? More? Are there no limits? The mayor of LA defends the undocumented people there. Should LA take in another 2 or 3 million? This editorial and some of the recent guest editorials offer no answer to the question of limits. At what point do the negative externalities and diminishing marginal returns outweigh the positive? This editorial completely ignores this tipping point. Granted that there are indeed some economic gains from the undocumented workforce, this editorial says nothing about what the costs are incurred to house, educate, employ, and provide health care to a growing undocumented population. A great deal of the opposition to the undocumented people now in the U.S. comes from the failure of those who support them to answer the question, what are the limits to allowing more into the country?
24
There's an enduring pattern of deafness of NYT to its readership on this subject.
In comments, the readers express valid and well-thought out concerns about their country sovereignty, preservation of its culture and values, and rule of law.
They also question the economic impact of recent immigration (not the previous one). This question is far from settled, if one considers the cost of education, the relative contribution to crime (and the associated costs) of the first and following generations, the relative cost of healthcare and soc security.
Curiously, I'm yet to see an editorial or an invited paper addressing those concerns. Of course, I may have missed it, yet lopsided exhortations like this editorial abound.
In comments, the readers express valid and well-thought out concerns about their country sovereignty, preservation of its culture and values, and rule of law.
They also question the economic impact of recent immigration (not the previous one). This question is far from settled, if one considers the cost of education, the relative contribution to crime (and the associated costs) of the first and following generations, the relative cost of healthcare and soc security.
Curiously, I'm yet to see an editorial or an invited paper addressing those concerns. Of course, I may have missed it, yet lopsided exhortations like this editorial abound.
44
It is interesting to read this side by side with another opinion piece "Are Liberals Helping Trump?"
Trump is in power today, not because of his ardent supporters, but because of his reluctant supporters, those who voted for him despite their feelings, because they couldn't accept the alternative. These people are not the "rabid mob" led by its gut feelings, easily manipulated through emotional appeals to nationalism and racism.
These are the people the Democrats have to win back, and they won't do it through "outrage". They must provide convincing, rational policies that acknowledge and address the concerns of those people.
In the last few weeks I've seen a rapid deterioration of the quality of thought being expressed among my left-leaning friends and acquaintances, a willingness to resort to the same kind of "alternative facts" that Trump takes to naturally. This is only going to alienate the middle ground even further.
Trump is in power today, not because of his ardent supporters, but because of his reluctant supporters, those who voted for him despite their feelings, because they couldn't accept the alternative. These people are not the "rabid mob" led by its gut feelings, easily manipulated through emotional appeals to nationalism and racism.
These are the people the Democrats have to win back, and they won't do it through "outrage". They must provide convincing, rational policies that acknowledge and address the concerns of those people.
In the last few weeks I've seen a rapid deterioration of the quality of thought being expressed among my left-leaning friends and acquaintances, a willingness to resort to the same kind of "alternative facts" that Trump takes to naturally. This is only going to alienate the middle ground even further.
35
People with Green Cards are classified by the government as US Persons, who have many of the rights and privileges of citizens. Yet these people are not safe from Trump's anti-immigrant crusade, as we learned in the early days of the infamous executive order.
Legal immigrants built this country. Our treatment of people who come here by following the rules should be simple: a welcome with open arms. Instead they are seen as just another type of potential terrorist, to be harassed by the "just following orders" border guards and under suspicion at all times.
Finding the right policy on the undocumented is a tough, complex question, balancing compassion against the right to enforce our laws. For Green Card holders and those with valid visas, though, the message should be simple: Welcome to America.
Legal immigrants built this country. Our treatment of people who come here by following the rules should be simple: a welcome with open arms. Instead they are seen as just another type of potential terrorist, to be harassed by the "just following orders" border guards and under suspicion at all times.
Finding the right policy on the undocumented is a tough, complex question, balancing compassion against the right to enforce our laws. For Green Card holders and those with valid visas, though, the message should be simple: Welcome to America.
6
When a rich country, the United States, has bordered many poor countries, such as Mexico and Central America, it is natural that economic migrants, starving in the 1960's-1990's, would come north to the US, looking for work. They found work that most US workers do not want, low wage agricultural work picking corn, fruit, cleaning hotel rooms, slaughtering chickens, cooking food in restaurants so patrons can enjoy "cheap eats."
Over the past 40 years, each and every Mexican immigrant that I have known (and there have been hundreds) who is working in the US is supporting 3-5 people in Mexico and living an extremely modest life style here.
People born in the US do not want the jobs the Mexican workers do. People born in the US do not want to be cooks in the restaurants for 12 hours a day, or clean the motels, or slaughter the chickens and turkeys for minimum wage. Their bosses would have filled these jobs with US born workers, but they cannot find these workers to fill the jobs.
Over the past 40 years, each and every Mexican immigrant that I have known (and there have been hundreds) who is working in the US is supporting 3-5 people in Mexico and living an extremely modest life style here.
People born in the US do not want the jobs the Mexican workers do. People born in the US do not want to be cooks in the restaurants for 12 hours a day, or clean the motels, or slaughter the chickens and turkeys for minimum wage. Their bosses would have filled these jobs with US born workers, but they cannot find these workers to fill the jobs.
4
Mexico is not poor. Mexicans just prefer to import their poor people here rather than actually provide for them. FYI, Americans work hard. It's not okay to import low wage workers to undercut them.
3
They cannot find them at the subsistence wages they will pay. Is that the Economy we want? Who did those jobs before the flood of illegals? Americans. I've washed dishes, mowed lawns etc. this notion is insulting to regular u.s. citizens.
3
The President is playing to his base and then claims he is accomplishing what he was sent to Washington to do. Each and everyday we are assaulted by claims that the real enemy of the American Public ( in this case the alt-right) is the press and his grin as he signs executive orders that have one purpose, to undo what President Obama accomplished during his two terms. We hear a narrative about how our middle class is being undermined by "liberal " policies over the last 60 years, except the tenure of Reagan. When you and your Cabinet live in exclusive gated communities and the Gold Leafed Trump Tower bathrooms, you have no idea how the 99% live. You rely on wildly exaggerated stories of death and mayhem in the streets, how our students can not read at a first grade level. To be fair, there are too many dying in cities like Chicago and we must do better to reach all students. We cannot ignore the fact that with each new Administration we have policies that change. But the enforcement of policies have a head on collision with funding realities. With Mr. Trump, his anti immigration, isolationist policies are moving at hyper speed. It appears the spending - wise Republicans are now silent. Those who support him drape themselves in the Flag and God given rights. Those only apply to people that look like them. Freedom is not for everyone in the Trump Era. There is a cause and effect to his election that will eventually impact those that put him in office. Buyer beware.
1
As a social scientist who has studied immigration from Mexico, the differences between the Trump administration and its predecessors could not be more clear to me. When previous administrations--Democrat and Republican--had criticized illegal immigration as a source of problems, they focused on the inhumanity of the immigration system in hopes of accomplishing comprehensive immigration reform. Reformers in both parties were stymied by a far right that insisted on vilifying the undocumented and driving them all from the country, oblivious to how they would hurt even themselves (hello labor shortage). In contrast, the Trump administration adopts this vilifying strategy in such broad strokes that immigration status falls by the wayside. He repudiates people for being "Mexican," not illegal, even U.S. born judges. He repudiates Muslims, not terrorists, because, well, he can't tell the difference.
My feeling is that those who wish to see in Trump someone who is opposing "illegal" immigrants and "terrorists" aren't paying close enough attention to what he is actually saying and doing.
My feeling is that those who wish to see in Trump someone who is opposing "illegal" immigrants and "terrorists" aren't paying close enough attention to what he is actually saying and doing.
146
Brian, labor shortage? Unemployment is at 5-1/2% and if you include the many people who have given up looking for work, a good deal higher. Illegal immigrants take up 5% of the jobs. So do the math, and recognize that the vast majority of the jobs they take are at the expense of people at the lower end of the economic scale -- disproportionately poor, black, and legal immigrants -- who cannot compete with illegals who are forced to work in substandard conditions for low wages and have no legal recourse against employer abuse.
9
There is absolutely no danger of a labor shortage in the United States or the world for that matter.
2
We had reform ... 1986. Democrats like I presume you are want "reform" i.e. de facto unlimited immigration albeit via a vetting process. But you concede here that this is BAD for the US's current native born citizen unskilled labor force - a labor shortage is just what they need. It would raise employment and wages. And let's cut to the chase ... Democrats can't win elections with out some corrupt scheme like public school and civil service payola or illegal immigration deluges or government programs for votes. Ugh. Look at Detroit and Chicago and Philadelphia ... run by Democrats since the 1930s-1950s.
1
Here's the thing:
The Editorial Board could be 100% right about everything they say is wrong with Trump.
But they are still 100% wrong in their basic stance about immigration to this country, which is that just about anybody who can make it here should be allowed to stay. I believe the Times also supports bringing in as many temporary workers and others on visas as possible, because if people from overseas want to live and work here, the Times believes their desires should be accommodated somehow.
After receiving too many people for too many years, the only real solution to our immigration problem will require us to significantly reduce future immigration. That is the reality that all must face. In order to get there, we will have to accept that most of those already here illegally will end up staying.
That's it. Acceptance of those already here in exchange for taking in far fewer people in the future. That's the necessary Grand Bargain on immigration.
I think we could get Trump and the Republicans to accept this.
How about the Democrats? Are they willing to face the reality that the US cannot accept all the nice and needy people people around the world who want to come here?
Time will tell. Maybe continued job loss through technological advances will finally convince our country that we should stop our rapid march to an insanely higher future US population of half a billion or more and start aiming instead for a lower, sustainable future population.
The Editorial Board could be 100% right about everything they say is wrong with Trump.
But they are still 100% wrong in their basic stance about immigration to this country, which is that just about anybody who can make it here should be allowed to stay. I believe the Times also supports bringing in as many temporary workers and others on visas as possible, because if people from overseas want to live and work here, the Times believes their desires should be accommodated somehow.
After receiving too many people for too many years, the only real solution to our immigration problem will require us to significantly reduce future immigration. That is the reality that all must face. In order to get there, we will have to accept that most of those already here illegally will end up staying.
That's it. Acceptance of those already here in exchange for taking in far fewer people in the future. That's the necessary Grand Bargain on immigration.
I think we could get Trump and the Republicans to accept this.
How about the Democrats? Are they willing to face the reality that the US cannot accept all the nice and needy people people around the world who want to come here?
Time will tell. Maybe continued job loss through technological advances will finally convince our country that we should stop our rapid march to an insanely higher future US population of half a billion or more and start aiming instead for a lower, sustainable future population.
40
Many people want immigration reform, unfortunately it may have cost Clinton the election. The present rate of immigration is considered to high by many people. It doe not make you a bad citizen to want lower numbers. This is becoming a PC issue, any perceived limits to immigration means you are a racist, ignorant, or a right winger. There are sensible reasons to reduce immigration starting with the ecological ones, Americans have a large footprint on the planet, we consume large amounts of energy and resources. Driving our population higher with high immigration hurts the planet and increases sprawl in our cities. We should also promote skill based immigration, we don't need to increase the size of our underclass at a time when automation and AI will probably increase unemployment.
23
The sad situation with undocumented or "illegal" immigrants has left both the Obama and now the Trump Administration with what amounts to a "Deport 'Em All" policy. Of course, President Obama never vilified nor victimized these immigrants the way President Trump has both throughout his campaign and since becoming President. Moreover, President Obama tried to focus his massive deportations on criminals while President Trump has expanded those eligible for deportation to include those previously "deferred" (under "DACA"). So, the big difference is one of attitude rather than policy. President Obama fought to have bipartisan legislation to reform our antiquated immigration laws and protect those who were innocent of illegality (as children) or who had been working here productively for decades. President Trump has no interest in such reform or nuanced policy, but seems eager to deport all 11 million immigrants who are undocumented and build a wall to keep them out. There is a callousness that is chilling to anyone who has even an iota of compassion for the plight of those who've lived here peacefully and productively that we seem incapable of being the America that once upon a time welcomed "your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" and could provide a "path to citizenship" for those who deserve that opportunity. That is how most of got here and how our ancestors, like the Founding Fathers, Made America Great in the first place.
1
Try as I might I don't know if I can explain the immigrant experience. I myself "immigrated" in the nineties to find better opportunities in other countries. I worked for fifteen years outside of the U.S. very successfully and finally returned home with a family in tow. The immigration system then, 2006, was in disarray just as it is now. I paid five lawyers for advice on bringing my wife of ten years into the country and felt like I received eight opinions. We completed an application for a green card for her at the local embassy. The form allowed for me to petition for her to be granted admission but had no space for our four American children to support the application. No one cared. We ultimately entered with her tourist visa and in a few months applied for a "change of status" and received a green card. Several people I know have received a "change of status" over the years.
Other people I knew in the 90's had so save up $ 15,000 and then fly to El Paso with a lawyer who crossed the border with them where they paid their bribe for legal U.S. papers at the U.S. consulate.
I was fortunate I could pay five lawyers. Most immigrants don't have that capacity. The legal environment surrounding immigration make sausage making look like Tic-Tac-Toe. They came here seeking safety and empowerment that is now and has been available to them. For god's sake have some mercy on them for trying to improve themselves.
Other people I knew in the 90's had so save up $ 15,000 and then fly to El Paso with a lawyer who crossed the border with them where they paid their bribe for legal U.S. papers at the U.S. consulate.
I was fortunate I could pay five lawyers. Most immigrants don't have that capacity. The legal environment surrounding immigration make sausage making look like Tic-Tac-Toe. They came here seeking safety and empowerment that is now and has been available to them. For god's sake have some mercy on them for trying to improve themselves.
4
Let them improve themselves at home. I'm so tired of hearing that the whole purpose of our country is make life easier for uninvited foreigners.
2
Ask yourself why is it we have 11.1 illegal immigrants in the country? Some will say insecure border, and others might say lax administrations. But the answer is supply and demand. Two thirds of the illegals have been here for a decade or more, and the reason they stayed is they could find work that no one really cared to do but them. The business community wants them here because they work hard, are dependable and don’t ask for much in return.
Just think of the vacuum in our economy that would result if all 11.1 million left tomorrow. It would be devastating. And Congress knows this. So the illegals will likely suffer for a while until the dust settles and Trump declares victory, then back to normal.
Statistic; deporting 600 illegals every week (as happened in last week's roundup) will take 350+ years to complete the deportation of the 11.1 million. Our Republic has been in place for 240 years.
A path to citizenship is the only practical, reasonable, and sane way to handle this.
Just think of the vacuum in our economy that would result if all 11.1 million left tomorrow. It would be devastating. And Congress knows this. So the illegals will likely suffer for a while until the dust settles and Trump declares victory, then back to normal.
Statistic; deporting 600 illegals every week (as happened in last week's roundup) will take 350+ years to complete the deportation of the 11.1 million. Our Republic has been in place for 240 years.
A path to citizenship is the only practical, reasonable, and sane way to handle this.
41
I am fine with legal immigration but if someone doesn't respect the laws of our nation then they, in turn, do not respect me or my community. Explain to me then why I need to respect them? What do I owe them?
I guess the lives of the Americans negatively impacted by illegal immigration are not as valuable as immigrant lives -- according to the NYT at least. And if you speak up for those Americans in some quarters you are called a bigot. I'm sorry, given the choice between 2 groups of people -- citizens and non-citizens -- I will choose my fellow citizens and their welfare first and foremost.
Open border advocates also do themselves no favor by promoting the idea of multi-culturalism over Americanism. We used to emphasize integration, Americanization, English language acquisition and a melting pot. Now the left not only wants the free flow of people without restriction, they want to value all cultures equally at the expensive of social trust, community and cohesion. If our culture in the US isn't worth preserving and promoting, why do people want to come here in the first place.
Sorry, I would vote a straight DEM ticket but this issue loses me every time.
I guess the lives of the Americans negatively impacted by illegal immigration are not as valuable as immigrant lives -- according to the NYT at least. And if you speak up for those Americans in some quarters you are called a bigot. I'm sorry, given the choice between 2 groups of people -- citizens and non-citizens -- I will choose my fellow citizens and their welfare first and foremost.
Open border advocates also do themselves no favor by promoting the idea of multi-culturalism over Americanism. We used to emphasize integration, Americanization, English language acquisition and a melting pot. Now the left not only wants the free flow of people without restriction, they want to value all cultures equally at the expensive of social trust, community and cohesion. If our culture in the US isn't worth preserving and promoting, why do people want to come here in the first place.
Sorry, I would vote a straight DEM ticket but this issue loses me every time.
25
Tearing parents and grandparents from their American born children and grandchildren is sociopathic, immoral and unethical.
Preventing refugees from who have been highly vetted by multiple agencies for years from seeking sanctuary in America lacks morality and empathy.
Jesus Christ would weep if he saw people who claim to follow his teachings hold such disregard for other human beings.
Immigrants at all skill levels worked hard to make this country the most dynamic, prosperous and powerful on Earth.
Half of Fortune 500 companies were founded by first or second generation Americans. In addition to working and paying taxes, immigrants hire millions of workers.
As the Kremlin-installed President battles freedom of the press and the validity of facts themselves, he is busy tearing down agencies that protect clean water and air, educate children in public schools, and provide health care and affordable housing.
The import tax solutions advanced by the President to stop free trade will raise prices on imported goods 25% while reducing quality and competition.
Trump's cabinet of billionaires reveals who he represents. The White House is hawking multi-million dollar Melania's photo ops, Ivanka's brands, and Trump's hotels.
He is modeling America after Putin's totalitarian oligarchy, a dystopian corruption of the free trade, open borders, innovation, immigration, free press and free enterprise that made America the most powerful and prosperous country on Earth.
Preventing refugees from who have been highly vetted by multiple agencies for years from seeking sanctuary in America lacks morality and empathy.
Jesus Christ would weep if he saw people who claim to follow his teachings hold such disregard for other human beings.
Immigrants at all skill levels worked hard to make this country the most dynamic, prosperous and powerful on Earth.
Half of Fortune 500 companies were founded by first or second generation Americans. In addition to working and paying taxes, immigrants hire millions of workers.
As the Kremlin-installed President battles freedom of the press and the validity of facts themselves, he is busy tearing down agencies that protect clean water and air, educate children in public schools, and provide health care and affordable housing.
The import tax solutions advanced by the President to stop free trade will raise prices on imported goods 25% while reducing quality and competition.
Trump's cabinet of billionaires reveals who he represents. The White House is hawking multi-million dollar Melania's photo ops, Ivanka's brands, and Trump's hotels.
He is modeling America after Putin's totalitarian oligarchy, a dystopian corruption of the free trade, open borders, innovation, immigration, free press and free enterprise that made America the most powerful and prosperous country on Earth.
6
Demanding the right to break our laws because you gave birth here is what is immoral.
3
If our immigration laws mean nothing, which other crimes shall we now ignore? Illegal immigrants are not refugees. They are criminals who went to great expense and effort to sneak across our borders, or who immigrated illegally by overstaying their tourist visas. The editors show great compassion for them but none for the millions of citizens who have been forced out of their jobs in favor of illegals who work for a pittance and cannot demand decent working conditions.
We cannot have a rational conversation as long as progressives like this editorial board maintain the fiction that there is no difference between legal and illegal immigrants. Calling both 'migrants' is a deliberate falsehood meant to conflate the two, to elicit the same sympathy for border criminals as we very rightly have for refugees. This fools no one, and led directly to the election of the absurd Trump and the disaster that means for the world.
There is no need to deport the illegals. Just finally enforce the laws that require employers to hire citizens and green card holders by jailing those that don't. The 'migrants' will return to their own countries and contribute to those economies instead of undermining ours. And perhaps we will all regain some respect for our government and its ability to govern.
We cannot have a rational conversation as long as progressives like this editorial board maintain the fiction that there is no difference between legal and illegal immigrants. Calling both 'migrants' is a deliberate falsehood meant to conflate the two, to elicit the same sympathy for border criminals as we very rightly have for refugees. This fools no one, and led directly to the election of the absurd Trump and the disaster that means for the world.
There is no need to deport the illegals. Just finally enforce the laws that require employers to hire citizens and green card holders by jailing those that don't. The 'migrants' will return to their own countries and contribute to those economies instead of undermining ours. And perhaps we will all regain some respect for our government and its ability to govern.
56
There are apparently a large number of Americans so hurt by modern economics and a failed health care system that they have elected Mr. Trump to be our president. His cruelty and pleasure in threatening powerless immigrants, his constant demands for attention, and his blatant and willful lies remind us of a bratty 4-year-old spoiled brat. The fact that his voters are delighted by the mess he has created is discouraging beyond words. I'm so disgusted by them that I find my sympathy for their distress has evaporated.
Those of us who still treasure the old values of decency, charity, human dignity and empathy cannot let this vile man eliminate those values. I am ashamed not only at his vulgarity but at the people who support him in that ugly selfish ego trip he's on. Protesting is one way to show publicly that he hasn't defeated all decency. But we need more. We're going to need an underground railroad to protect those who are here doing jobs that white locals won't do, and who are not evil "criminals" despite not having documentation.
I just can't feel that leaving dangerous situations to seek safety and a place to work hard, earn one's keep and raise a family is so terrible. One wonders just how many of those so critical of the "illegals" would have upped stakes and come here themselves if faced with the same situation. That is, after all, the origin of the American dream.
Those of us who still treasure the old values of decency, charity, human dignity and empathy cannot let this vile man eliminate those values. I am ashamed not only at his vulgarity but at the people who support him in that ugly selfish ego trip he's on. Protesting is one way to show publicly that he hasn't defeated all decency. But we need more. We're going to need an underground railroad to protect those who are here doing jobs that white locals won't do, and who are not evil "criminals" despite not having documentation.
I just can't feel that leaving dangerous situations to seek safety and a place to work hard, earn one's keep and raise a family is so terrible. One wonders just how many of those so critical of the "illegals" would have upped stakes and come here themselves if faced with the same situation. That is, after all, the origin of the American dream.
6
A person cannot be illegal. Let's start with that basic assumption regarding human dignity.
People do enter our country via illegal methods, for various reasons, most of which are some form of desperation. In extreme cases, they are trying to outrun horrific violence, torture, human trafficking and death threats.
Having never known such an awful feeling of desperation, thanks to the citizenship I inherited from my Irish grandparents' own immigration journey in the early 1900s, I feel unworthy to judge others who endure searing hardships to get here. I did nothing to be gifted with my citizenship status other than be born.
In my urban neighborhood, many undocumented immigrants work in all types of stores, in restaurants, delivering food, painting, cleaning, landscaping, being nannies for working moms, in salons and drycleaners, and when we have snowstorms they roam the neighborhood with shovels offering to clear our sidewalks and driveways for a few bucks. I am not aware of a single citizen who aspires to one of these types of jobs but cannot get one because of an immigrant.
Immigrants who are criminals, violent and dangerous have been deported all along. Folks even accused Obama of overdoing it. But hardworking decent people, whose children are American citizens, who contribute so many positive services, talents and energy to our communities deserve a modicum of empathy and compassion. Oddly, many seem to treasure and appreciate America more than some citizens do.
People do enter our country via illegal methods, for various reasons, most of which are some form of desperation. In extreme cases, they are trying to outrun horrific violence, torture, human trafficking and death threats.
Having never known such an awful feeling of desperation, thanks to the citizenship I inherited from my Irish grandparents' own immigration journey in the early 1900s, I feel unworthy to judge others who endure searing hardships to get here. I did nothing to be gifted with my citizenship status other than be born.
In my urban neighborhood, many undocumented immigrants work in all types of stores, in restaurants, delivering food, painting, cleaning, landscaping, being nannies for working moms, in salons and drycleaners, and when we have snowstorms they roam the neighborhood with shovels offering to clear our sidewalks and driveways for a few bucks. I am not aware of a single citizen who aspires to one of these types of jobs but cannot get one because of an immigrant.
Immigrants who are criminals, violent and dangerous have been deported all along. Folks even accused Obama of overdoing it. But hardworking decent people, whose children are American citizens, who contribute so many positive services, talents and energy to our communities deserve a modicum of empathy and compassion. Oddly, many seem to treasure and appreciate America more than some citizens do.
47
Distortion and conflation are Republican specialties. Take a grain of truth, then out of it grow a bumper crop of lies and campaign slogans to incite paranoid white voters.
Progressives like myself are quite willing to analyze and discuss illegal immigration and its remedies. What we will not do is participate in hateful rhetoric specifically targeted to inflame Trump's racist supporters.
It is true that not all Trump voters are racist, but it is true that all Trump voters voted for a racist. And yes, Trump is a white supremacist, plain, simple, and ugly.
Illegal immigration is a serious issue worthy of serious discussion by those capable of grappling with complexities and contradictions in order to build a more workable policy. By definition that rules out Republicans in general, and Trump in particular, because they lack moral credibility.
Progressives like myself are quite willing to analyze and discuss illegal immigration and its remedies. What we will not do is participate in hateful rhetoric specifically targeted to inflame Trump's racist supporters.
It is true that not all Trump voters are racist, but it is true that all Trump voters voted for a racist. And yes, Trump is a white supremacist, plain, simple, and ugly.
Illegal immigration is a serious issue worthy of serious discussion by those capable of grappling with complexities and contradictions in order to build a more workable policy. By definition that rules out Republicans in general, and Trump in particular, because they lack moral credibility.
11
To those who harp on documented vs undocumented: This would be fair if we had a working system. That would include:
1. Refugee or asylee statuses being given to those who deserve them. Many "illegals" should be asylees.
2. Equal access. At present, our visa fees are flat-rate across the world. A price that is perfectly fair for someone from the EU is inaccessible for someone from Haiti. Yet we charge the same. Our country quota system is baroque and corrupt, and has very little basis in reality.
3. Some semblance of efficiency. A family member just arrived here after a 4.5 year wait. That's just how long the line was -- the wait can be 20 years and more in some cases.
4. Fairness. People don't pay half a year's wages to apply for a visa when their chance of success is under 5%. Our quota system is totally out of whack.
5. Some semblance of humanity. People without docs -- but also people on TPS and others -- can't visit their families and can't petition them. Their relatives are not given tourist visas, out of fear that they'd overstay. They often bring their kids because a caregiver back home has died, or a problem has come up, and there isn't another option.
Our "legal" immigration system is an unholy mess. It needs fundamental reform. (To the inevitable accusations of "you must be illegal" -- I was born here, family here for many generations, radicalized by contact w/ the "legal" immigration system.)
1. Refugee or asylee statuses being given to those who deserve them. Many "illegals" should be asylees.
2. Equal access. At present, our visa fees are flat-rate across the world. A price that is perfectly fair for someone from the EU is inaccessible for someone from Haiti. Yet we charge the same. Our country quota system is baroque and corrupt, and has very little basis in reality.
3. Some semblance of efficiency. A family member just arrived here after a 4.5 year wait. That's just how long the line was -- the wait can be 20 years and more in some cases.
4. Fairness. People don't pay half a year's wages to apply for a visa when their chance of success is under 5%. Our quota system is totally out of whack.
5. Some semblance of humanity. People without docs -- but also people on TPS and others -- can't visit their families and can't petition them. Their relatives are not given tourist visas, out of fear that they'd overstay. They often bring their kids because a caregiver back home has died, or a problem has come up, and there isn't another option.
Our "legal" immigration system is an unholy mess. It needs fundamental reform. (To the inevitable accusations of "you must be illegal" -- I was born here, family here for many generations, radicalized by contact w/ the "legal" immigration system.)
13
We don't need unskilled Latinos here. Our needs, our community, our country not their needs, their community, their country.
2
Both parties prefer to use this as wedge issue rather than do anything about it. In 2007, Bush, Jr. pushed almost identical bill to Obama's Gang of 8 bill. It failed in the Senate because 33 Democrats voted no. If those 33 Democrats had voted yes, it would have passed.
President Bill Clinton had best chance of all. He publicly and privately supported the Barbara Jordan Commission recommendations in the mid-1990's. But then, Chinese campaign donors, providing illegal campaign financing for his 1996 reelection, asked Clinton to drop his support for chain migration reform and other parts of the immigration bill working its way through Congress. So Clinton reneged on his commitments and cut deals with corporatist Republicans for a watered-down bill. Well-covered in papers at the time.
Lot of media attention on Trump's actions now, justifiably. But history suggests Democrats do not care any more about immigrants other than using it as wedge issue (or, in Clinton's case, as bargaining chip to raise illegal funds from foreign donors). If they did, they would have voted for Bush, Jr.'s bill in 2007 (that was heavily criticized from right as backdoor amnesty). That bill even included DREAM act as sub-section.
I'd rank GW up there with LBJ as worst president of last 50 plus years. But on this issue, he had almost no difference from Obama. Democrats refusal to work with him suggests this is all about wage exploitation, something which campaign donors to both parties benefit from.
President Bill Clinton had best chance of all. He publicly and privately supported the Barbara Jordan Commission recommendations in the mid-1990's. But then, Chinese campaign donors, providing illegal campaign financing for his 1996 reelection, asked Clinton to drop his support for chain migration reform and other parts of the immigration bill working its way through Congress. So Clinton reneged on his commitments and cut deals with corporatist Republicans for a watered-down bill. Well-covered in papers at the time.
Lot of media attention on Trump's actions now, justifiably. But history suggests Democrats do not care any more about immigrants other than using it as wedge issue (or, in Clinton's case, as bargaining chip to raise illegal funds from foreign donors). If they did, they would have voted for Bush, Jr.'s bill in 2007 (that was heavily criticized from right as backdoor amnesty). That bill even included DREAM act as sub-section.
I'd rank GW up there with LBJ as worst president of last 50 plus years. But on this issue, he had almost no difference from Obama. Democrats refusal to work with him suggests this is all about wage exploitation, something which campaign donors to both parties benefit from.
19
I think it would be good to review this summary of what happened to the 2007 immigration bill. Blaming its defeat solely on the Democrats is just plain wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007
3
Since Bush was in office before Obama, Obama took the ideas from Bush's bill that as you point out 33 Democrats voted against.
1
Imagine the following scenario. I am a successful and rich cardiologist who lives and works in New York. I support the longstanding efforts of my medical guild making it as difficult as possible for overseas trained cardiologists to immigrate to the US, set up practise and enter into competition with me in New York. This would drive down the rates that I can charge for my cardiology services.
To invest my earnings as a cardiologist, I set up a company with my brother-in-law, who is a real estate agent, to build retirement condos in Florida. We hire the cheapest labourers we can, some of whom are Mexicans and Poles who have green cards, many of whom are their friends and relatives from Mexico and Poland who do not and are working illegally without a visa.
I support continuing the status quo where instead of a points-based system there is a lottery to choose who can get a US Green Card, because this means that very few overseas cardiologists will get a Green Card and be able to immigrate into the US and compete with me in my local practise. Further, there will be a plentiful supply of cheap immigrant labour, legal and illegal, so that I can minimise my condo company's labour costs and maximise my profits.
My wife also likes the unskilled immigrants because we get to eat cheap food, drink cheap wine, eat in cheap restaurants, and hire cheap nannies, au pairs, maids, gardeners and landscapers. Plus it helps keeps down the labour costs in the nursing home for the old folks.
To invest my earnings as a cardiologist, I set up a company with my brother-in-law, who is a real estate agent, to build retirement condos in Florida. We hire the cheapest labourers we can, some of whom are Mexicans and Poles who have green cards, many of whom are their friends and relatives from Mexico and Poland who do not and are working illegally without a visa.
I support continuing the status quo where instead of a points-based system there is a lottery to choose who can get a US Green Card, because this means that very few overseas cardiologists will get a Green Card and be able to immigrate into the US and compete with me in my local practise. Further, there will be a plentiful supply of cheap immigrant labour, legal and illegal, so that I can minimise my condo company's labour costs and maximise my profits.
My wife also likes the unskilled immigrants because we get to eat cheap food, drink cheap wine, eat in cheap restaurants, and hire cheap nannies, au pairs, maids, gardeners and landscapers. Plus it helps keeps down the labour costs in the nursing home for the old folks.
16
Is it possible to separate the refugees, those who are trying to escape from war to find some peace, from those crossing borders for economic reasons. The law does make that distinction. Refugees, as has been reported are "extremely vetted", and are not crossing our border illegally.
The Administration has chosen to lump all those attempting to come to the US together, characterizing them all as threats. This is seen by some as prudent, and by some as racist. Regardless, shouldn't they be treated differently.
As for the others, for example those coming in to work in agriculture, picking crops that require intensive hand labor, and which, even Republican farmers agree, would not be picked without their efforts, should they be categorized in the same group who are smugglers?
I am sure that other categories are possible.
Simply lumping all together makes no economic, reasonable or moral sense. Politically, however, it is a time honored way of appealing to the worst of human impuses.
The Administration has chosen to lump all those attempting to come to the US together, characterizing them all as threats. This is seen by some as prudent, and by some as racist. Regardless, shouldn't they be treated differently.
As for the others, for example those coming in to work in agriculture, picking crops that require intensive hand labor, and which, even Republican farmers agree, would not be picked without their efforts, should they be categorized in the same group who are smugglers?
I am sure that other categories are possible.
Simply lumping all together makes no economic, reasonable or moral sense. Politically, however, it is a time honored way of appealing to the worst of human impuses.
5
Trump did not create the current immigration problem that has been simmering for a long time awaiting some sort of reform that could have been passed by congress years ago. Presidents (Clinton and Obama) before Trump have also been hammering on the problems of illegal immigration now referred to as undocumented. Trump just identified it as a major problem needing urgent attention and is dealing with it in his way. Those who have heard the horrific stories of those desperate and destitute people who have gained entry into the USA through its porous borders illegally will be aware that it has not been a bed of roses or a smooth transition into American society for millions who are in the USA illegally. I am not sure I will characterize the Trump presidency as an anti-immigrant fever as much as it is a call to action for immigration reform that will be generous and compassionate to undocumented immigrants but at the same time ensure the enforcement of the immigration laws already on the books. There are valid reasons why our country of immigrants should continue to welcome many more immigrants in an orderly manner and ensuring that the incoming immigrants will be successful in realizing their dreams and appreciative of the opportunity to reside in the US without giving any reason to believe that they could pose any danger to the safety of the citizens of the US. The hype of anti-immigrant fever in the US is primarily due to lackadaisical governance and complex laws for decades.
11
Tell Mexico's leaders to be compassionate to their own people.
2
First and foremost we are a nation of laws. We are civil. we follow rules and order. Yet at the same time we are a nation of empathetic souls.
Our Congress generously allows 675,000 people to emigrate here every year. We also declare and allow thousands more groups of peoples who are defined as refugees. The number is not zero. Never has been, and never will be.
But the Liberals speak and act as if it were. No one in this country would accept a zero immigration policy. Yet they pretend we do.
As a practical matter we have had a below zero birthrate for the past 20 years, we are just no birthing babies anymore at a replacement rate for those who pass on. We need those 675,000 future taxpayers, to support our economy.
But, how is it that our population has increased 53 million since 1995 when Congress set the quota at 675,000? Do the math, it doesn't add up. And more importantly is it sustainable? The Federal government admits that 17% of our prison population is undocumented people. Federal sentences handed out in '15 were 37% illegals. Do we really want to house and feed all these criminal aliens?
Earlier this year Obama rescinded a 20 year old policy for undocumented Cubans, "wet feet, dry feet". In the past 6 weeks 680 Cubans have been sent back to Cuba. A repressed and dismal place.
Where is the outrage? Where is the NYT editorial? The hypocrisy is epic.
Our Congress generously allows 675,000 people to emigrate here every year. We also declare and allow thousands more groups of peoples who are defined as refugees. The number is not zero. Never has been, and never will be.
But the Liberals speak and act as if it were. No one in this country would accept a zero immigration policy. Yet they pretend we do.
As a practical matter we have had a below zero birthrate for the past 20 years, we are just no birthing babies anymore at a replacement rate for those who pass on. We need those 675,000 future taxpayers, to support our economy.
But, how is it that our population has increased 53 million since 1995 when Congress set the quota at 675,000? Do the math, it doesn't add up. And more importantly is it sustainable? The Federal government admits that 17% of our prison population is undocumented people. Federal sentences handed out in '15 were 37% illegals. Do we really want to house and feed all these criminal aliens?
Earlier this year Obama rescinded a 20 year old policy for undocumented Cubans, "wet feet, dry feet". In the past 6 weeks 680 Cubans have been sent back to Cuba. A repressed and dismal place.
Where is the outrage? Where is the NYT editorial? The hypocrisy is epic.
39
hawk......the US birth rate is not "below zero." The US birth rate is 1.88 live births per woman.
But I would agree that a higher birth rate would be economically and environmentally unsustainable. Most immigrants come here because of conditions caused or exacerbated by over-population. Using the US as a release valve does not encourage these countries to address their issues. Only threatens to bring us down to their level.
But I would agree that a higher birth rate would be economically and environmentally unsustainable. Most immigrants come here because of conditions caused or exacerbated by over-population. Using the US as a release valve does not encourage these countries to address their issues. Only threatens to bring us down to their level.
2
One of these days the Times Editorial Board will address these concerns of reasonable Americans:
1. The difference between legal and illegal
2. Importance of the rule of law for a thriving and functioning society
3. Fairness to those who immigrate legally
4. At what point in terms of population density will we say "no more." Hope the answer to this is not, "when we become just like where they come from and they will no longer want to come."
5. Fairness to American citizens both as workers and taxpayers
6. Threat to the environment due to growing population
7. Eroding tax base, schools and hospitals
8. Increasing inequality
9. Punishing employers of illegal workers
10. Not rewarding lawbreakers
I won't hold my breath.
However, a wake-up call. Keep penning such editorials and you will keep further hardening the divisions among Americans, and make Trump or someone like him more likely in 2020 and beyond.
1. The difference between legal and illegal
2. Importance of the rule of law for a thriving and functioning society
3. Fairness to those who immigrate legally
4. At what point in terms of population density will we say "no more." Hope the answer to this is not, "when we become just like where they come from and they will no longer want to come."
5. Fairness to American citizens both as workers and taxpayers
6. Threat to the environment due to growing population
7. Eroding tax base, schools and hospitals
8. Increasing inequality
9. Punishing employers of illegal workers
10. Not rewarding lawbreakers
I won't hold my breath.
However, a wake-up call. Keep penning such editorials and you will keep further hardening the divisions among Americans, and make Trump or someone like him more likely in 2020 and beyond.
109
Problem is that those people work harder than you for less, and the free market you used to love so much wants you to step aside.
There's a reason why Republican Ronald Reagan was the Founding Father of amnesty. It's because the country needed them more than national socialists like yourself.
There's a reason why Republican Ronald Reagan was the Founding Father of amnesty. It's because the country needed them more than national socialists like yourself.
Though I am steadfastly opposed to illegal immigration, my opposition does not spring from animus toward those who sneak in. I recognize that most are simply desperate people seeking better lives in a better country. I simply believe that our immigration laws should be respected and that people who come here should do so through the appropriate channels.
That said, I question your premise that more protests will make the situation better for immigrants. For many of us, the spectacle of the 24/7 anti-Trump resistance is merely hardening our positions. What we see on the news is people voicing their entitlement to be here, their disregard for our laws and there expectation that American taxpayers will subsidize their lives. And we hear their American enablers thumbing their noses at the concerns of other Americans with respect to border security and the burdens most illegal immigrants impose upon our society.
During the last election cycle, when Hillary was deemed inevitable, Trump ultimately proved that his support ran far deeper than anyone imagined. It was as though Trump supporters were in the closet. This ugly, foul-mouthed post-election temper tantrum by American left has the real potential to bring more Americans -- fed up with "we know better than you" progressive social engineering -- into the Trump camp. Imagine Trump with a 60-vote majority in the Senate!
That said, I question your premise that more protests will make the situation better for immigrants. For many of us, the spectacle of the 24/7 anti-Trump resistance is merely hardening our positions. What we see on the news is people voicing their entitlement to be here, their disregard for our laws and there expectation that American taxpayers will subsidize their lives. And we hear their American enablers thumbing their noses at the concerns of other Americans with respect to border security and the burdens most illegal immigrants impose upon our society.
During the last election cycle, when Hillary was deemed inevitable, Trump ultimately proved that his support ran far deeper than anyone imagined. It was as though Trump supporters were in the closet. This ugly, foul-mouthed post-election temper tantrum by American left has the real potential to bring more Americans -- fed up with "we know better than you" progressive social engineering -- into the Trump camp. Imagine Trump with a 60-vote majority in the Senate!
43
Most people are getting sick of laying out logical arguments as you have done only to be labeled a racist.
A strategy of calling anyone who disagrees with you vile epithets because you have no logical argument is not a long term winner. Yet, they persist.
The American electorate is really not likely to vote for the side waving Mexican flags as they set fires, throw rocks and riot over a talk by a gay white man in a relationship with a Black man because he is a conservative.
A strategy of calling anyone who disagrees with you vile epithets because you have no logical argument is not a long term winner. Yet, they persist.
The American electorate is really not likely to vote for the side waving Mexican flags as they set fires, throw rocks and riot over a talk by a gay white man in a relationship with a Black man because he is a conservative.
3
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
Pastor Martin Niemoller
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
Pastor Martin Niemoller
20
And not one group you mention is totally comprised of law breakers. Try including: "Then they came for illegal immigrants and I did not speak out - Because I had obeyed the laws and waited for my turn.".
2
A HUGE difference in this case: those "immigrants" have broken American laws and here illegally. That they are here and continue to stay here is a slap in the face of all of those who wait patiently, going through the channels, to come to this country legally and become citizen.
2
Let's be clear: mass deportations don't secure borders (these folk are here!); the National Guard call-up memo (denied; another lie!) puts this election promise into the domain of forced relocations.
Forced movements in US history share painful, common features. Justified by law, imposed by force, they track America's historic weaknesses and shame. They mark a trail of our worse self-deceit, by pretending to improve our common lot. They disguise hate/scorn for people living in our midst in harmony and peace.
Its proponents say forced movements exhibit virtue and strength. The opposite is true. America's forced movements follow legal and cultural templates for the surfeit of lies/myths/laws/beliefs about non-whites.
Forced movements have always meant death and suffering; today's economic and security motives for forced movement are false. Who fears a bomb in a hotel? Are jobs taken away—or low end jobs filled? Are skilled wages lowered? No--labor, like products, has a variety of price points (Casio and Philippe Patek (more expensive than Ferraris!) watches both keep time—and both sell!)
What forced movements conceal is naked power, bad law, and despots. The Middle Passage, the Trail of Tears, the Chinese exclusion, the Japanese internment, the Bataan death march, German trains created scapegoats, not security, and were racist smears, moral catastrophes, and permanent stains on humanity and nations. Fight in the present against this horrific past!
Forced movements in US history share painful, common features. Justified by law, imposed by force, they track America's historic weaknesses and shame. They mark a trail of our worse self-deceit, by pretending to improve our common lot. They disguise hate/scorn for people living in our midst in harmony and peace.
Its proponents say forced movements exhibit virtue and strength. The opposite is true. America's forced movements follow legal and cultural templates for the surfeit of lies/myths/laws/beliefs about non-whites.
Forced movements have always meant death and suffering; today's economic and security motives for forced movement are false. Who fears a bomb in a hotel? Are jobs taken away—or low end jobs filled? Are skilled wages lowered? No--labor, like products, has a variety of price points (Casio and Philippe Patek (more expensive than Ferraris!) watches both keep time—and both sell!)
What forced movements conceal is naked power, bad law, and despots. The Middle Passage, the Trail of Tears, the Chinese exclusion, the Japanese internment, the Bataan death march, German trains created scapegoats, not security, and were racist smears, moral catastrophes, and permanent stains on humanity and nations. Fight in the present against this horrific past!
26
The Trumped-up idea of menace denies and justifies the State's forced oppression.
4
Mass deportations is a fantastical hysteric invented by the Liberals. Same as the National Guard story.
The President was unable to put simple temporary travel ban in place, how in the world will he be able to commence mass deportation?
Get a grip my man. Your historic perspective is completely irrelevant. Bataan death march?
The President was unable to put simple temporary travel ban in place, how in the world will he be able to commence mass deportation?
Get a grip my man. Your historic perspective is completely irrelevant. Bataan death march?
2
This editorial begins by characterizing the President as guilty of “malevolent incompetence.” An as FYI to the Editorial Board, this is a foolish way to begin your argument, if your goal is to persuade the President and his supporters in Congress as to the merits of your case.
The issue of immigration is complicated. The United States is perhaps the best country in the world in which to live, and many wish to come here. But the simple truth is, we cannot accommodate the large majority of those who wish to immigrate. We do not have the resources. America is a nation of immigrants, but one of legal immigrants. For our entire history we have set rules and policies governing immigration. Do we wish people to come here who respect and adhere to our laws, or do we wish to encourage immigration by those who chose to break our laws?
We have tried amnesty many times, such as the Simpson-Mazzoli Act of 1986. This law granted broad amnesty to illegal immigrants who were here for 5 or more years. But it did not accomplish its goal of reducing illegal immigration going forward; instead it likely encouraged it.
“DACA” children, who were illegally brought to the country when they were young by their parents, and who have lived here most of their lives, are worthy of sympathy and perhaps special treatment. The President clearly said as much on Thursday.
But, as a matter of policy, we cannot encourage illegal immigration. We need to formulate a policy, and adhere to the policy.
The issue of immigration is complicated. The United States is perhaps the best country in the world in which to live, and many wish to come here. But the simple truth is, we cannot accommodate the large majority of those who wish to immigrate. We do not have the resources. America is a nation of immigrants, but one of legal immigrants. For our entire history we have set rules and policies governing immigration. Do we wish people to come here who respect and adhere to our laws, or do we wish to encourage immigration by those who chose to break our laws?
We have tried amnesty many times, such as the Simpson-Mazzoli Act of 1986. This law granted broad amnesty to illegal immigrants who were here for 5 or more years. But it did not accomplish its goal of reducing illegal immigration going forward; instead it likely encouraged it.
“DACA” children, who were illegally brought to the country when they were young by their parents, and who have lived here most of their lives, are worthy of sympathy and perhaps special treatment. The President clearly said as much on Thursday.
But, as a matter of policy, we cannot encourage illegal immigration. We need to formulate a policy, and adhere to the policy.
182
Yes, America's resources are finite. What proportion should be devoted to violently expelling people who are already here, some of whom have been here working for decades and have children who are and pose no danger, some of whom have children who are citizens? Immigration laws--like all laws--are selectively enforced. What should our priorities be? Because expelling all undocumented people would, among other things, bankrupt the country. Or is Mexico supposed to pay for that, too?
3
"The issue of immigration is complicated."
Thanks for the heads up.
Thanks for the heads up.
Oh rubbish! There never was such a thing as an 'illegal immigrant' before 1920.
A white shade of paint despoiling and defacing the red, white and blue of traditional and democratic America. People with suitcases leaving or being ushered out the door by an unconstitutional executive order. This president promised to make America great again but with a broad painter's brush dripping with white paint to sanitize and sterilize America's fruited plain, not as the Founding Fathers saw it but as this president thinks the country should be. The shame is that a electoral majority agreed with him and gave him carte blanche to make America white again.
The voters who supported the president knew about his unfitness for the White House but didn't bother to vet him. And this president and his Republican lawmakers haven't bothered to vet prospective Cabinet members as to their fitness to lead the agencies of which they would be in charge.
America elected as president an incoherent buffoon with a megaphone who predicted fear of nonwhite people and foreigners and a coming doomsday for America if Hillary Clinton prevailed last November. Only a responsible and patriotic Congress that puts country ahead of party can break this malignant virus that is sweeping the heartland. And then punish the president for malpractice.
The voters who supported the president knew about his unfitness for the White House but didn't bother to vet him. And this president and his Republican lawmakers haven't bothered to vet prospective Cabinet members as to their fitness to lead the agencies of which they would be in charge.
America elected as president an incoherent buffoon with a megaphone who predicted fear of nonwhite people and foreigners and a coming doomsday for America if Hillary Clinton prevailed last November. Only a responsible and patriotic Congress that puts country ahead of party can break this malignant virus that is sweeping the heartland. And then punish the president for malpractice.
13
This sort of editorial is what gave the world Trump. It is to blame. It alienated millions.
The Times does not get it.
For those of us who got here legally this makes us mad.
And it makes those who have no jobs even madder.
Illegal is ILLEGAL. Either you are nation of rules and the law or you are not. They are not dreamers they are ILLEGAL.
If the Times persists with this international virtue signalling over and above respect for the law then Trump may win a second term. And now look at the damage: the Supreme Court, the EPA, Obamacare. Huge damage from a PC insincere bit of posturing.
The Times does not get it.
For those of us who got here legally this makes us mad.
And it makes those who have no jobs even madder.
Illegal is ILLEGAL. Either you are nation of rules and the law or you are not. They are not dreamers they are ILLEGAL.
If the Times persists with this international virtue signalling over and above respect for the law then Trump may win a second term. And now look at the damage: the Supreme Court, the EPA, Obamacare. Huge damage from a PC insincere bit of posturing.
210
The idea that the NYT is responsible for Trump is ludicrous. Red state state voters who chose him out of 16 other Republican primary candidates, and then again in the election. They picked him. They, not the NYT, are responsible for their own choices.
6
The Times is a strong voice for reason in a country that is undergoing extreme pendulum swing after what once seemed like a decisive emergence from centuries of ignorance and injustice: I mean, what we have now vs. the day we elected Obama. Seems like the very idea of Obama was too much for about half the country, and now we have the push-back, personified by malevolent, incompetent Trump.
I also believe we need an intelligent immigration policy -- one that allows people to come to this country and work, and if they choose, possibly stay. That's what my grandparents did (without extreme vetting), and it's what Trump's grandparents, mother, and wife did too.
I do not agree that in the absence of an intelligent immigration policy -- we don't have one -- it is decent, humane, acceptable, or in any sense patriotic -- to terrorize people in the name of "fighting terrorism." Trump's policies are malevolent and incompetent, and there is no point in calling them anything else, or in giving any level of respect to simple brutality.
I also believe we need an intelligent immigration policy -- one that allows people to come to this country and work, and if they choose, possibly stay. That's what my grandparents did (without extreme vetting), and it's what Trump's grandparents, mother, and wife did too.
I do not agree that in the absence of an intelligent immigration policy -- we don't have one -- it is decent, humane, acceptable, or in any sense patriotic -- to terrorize people in the name of "fighting terrorism." Trump's policies are malevolent and incompetent, and there is no point in calling them anything else, or in giving any level of respect to simple brutality.
3
The "illegals" that are in your country are, in many ways, the backbone of your economy in many states and many industries. They take the jobs that Americans won't take. They are indispensable. Your country uses them and then demonizes them because you are also small, fearful people who do not want to see or accept the changing complexion of your country.
So I looked it up in my copy of “1984.”
Illegal Aliens are immigrants.
Open Borders are not open borders.
Amnesty is not amnesty.
And the Rule of Law is optional.
Illegal Aliens are immigrants.
Open Borders are not open borders.
Amnesty is not amnesty.
And the Rule of Law is optional.
131
Third time this week the NYT Opinion page repeats the falsehood that Obama was an "energetic" deporter. But they are not alone. Obama's solicitor general Verelli too perpetrated the same falsehood. During a SCOTUS hearing last year, in response to a pointed question from Justice Sotomayor on actual deportations, Verelli responded (obfuscated) with "we have resources for 400,000". When in fact, actual numbers 2015 hit rock-bottom 235K, from peak 420K in election year 2012.
All told, deportations dropped 41% during Obama's second term, see here:
https://www.ice.gov/removal-statistics/2016
plus this commenter has attempted to correct repeatedly, starting here
https://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/04/18/reality-vs-ideology-on-i...
At this rate, the NYT may as well start calling themselves The New Yarn Times. Very disappointing!
All told, deportations dropped 41% during Obama's second term, see here:
https://www.ice.gov/removal-statistics/2016
plus this commenter has attempted to correct repeatedly, starting here
https://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/04/18/reality-vs-ideology-on-i...
At this rate, the NYT may as well start calling themselves The New Yarn Times. Very disappointing!
66
You can say whatever you want, Barack Obama vigorously deported what Trump would label "bad hombres." Do you seriously think all 11 million people living here "outside the law" are "bad hombres?" Get real.
People such as yourself just want everyone out. Plain and simple. Good luck with the price of food from the Central Valley when we don't have cheap labor in the fields. Try to get Americans to do that backbreaking work for minimum wage.
People such as yourself just want everyone out. Plain and simple. Good luck with the price of food from the Central Valley when we don't have cheap labor in the fields. Try to get Americans to do that backbreaking work for minimum wage.
Los Angeles Times reported this years ago, as well.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html
The Obama administration changed the definition of deportation to include people turned away at or near the border to make the number larger. Under the old definition - people sent home who had been in the country a while - deportations fell 40% from 2009
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html
The Obama administration changed the definition of deportation to include people turned away at or near the border to make the number larger. Under the old definition - people sent home who had been in the country a while - deportations fell 40% from 2009
2
Both sides on this issue tend to lump together vastly different facts. 11 million people is a lot of stories, a lot of variations. Some should stay, and some should go.
There are millions who came here in reliance on the way we did not enforce our purported laws, and instead enabled employers to hire them. They made lives here. They married here. They had children here. They are parts of neighborhoods and schools and churches and community.
Now we tear apart those families? Now, after all this time looking the other way? No.
That is called "detrimental reliance." Even in real estate, after enough years of open possession, there is a right to keep it.
On the other hand we have those who break our criminal laws. Deportation is a fair punishment for serious crimes. On that other hand we have those who just got here, and did not rely on anything but chancing it. They ought to do it the right way or not at all.
In 11 million variations, there are vast numbers in between the extremes. They are decent human being living among us. What sort of monsters do we wish to be toward them? In close cases, mercy is the decent thing to do.
If we are to enforce laws, enforce them prospectively, not retroactively. Start now. Don't try to undo what our government did for decades, at the expense of the least among us, the most helpless.
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40 That is what "Christians" do.
There are millions who came here in reliance on the way we did not enforce our purported laws, and instead enabled employers to hire them. They made lives here. They married here. They had children here. They are parts of neighborhoods and schools and churches and community.
Now we tear apart those families? Now, after all this time looking the other way? No.
That is called "detrimental reliance." Even in real estate, after enough years of open possession, there is a right to keep it.
On the other hand we have those who break our criminal laws. Deportation is a fair punishment for serious crimes. On that other hand we have those who just got here, and did not rely on anything but chancing it. They ought to do it the right way or not at all.
In 11 million variations, there are vast numbers in between the extremes. They are decent human being living among us. What sort of monsters do we wish to be toward them? In close cases, mercy is the decent thing to do.
If we are to enforce laws, enforce them prospectively, not retroactively. Start now. Don't try to undo what our government did for decades, at the expense of the least among us, the most helpless.
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40 That is what "Christians" do.
48
Strong, balanced argument. I've made it myself, or something like it. But I keep coming up against those who argue that by giving 11-20 million a pass we betray those who waited for years, sometimes in dreadful conditions, for the opportunity to become Americans honestly; and those who still may be waiting on line.
Some also argue that we might attach so much importance and no more to tracking down and bringing to justice a car thief because of contending police funding priorities but that doesn't mean that when he's caught we just forgive him because he hasn't stolen a car in five years, has married and has a kid.
They have an argument, Mark. When people are desperate to enter and stay, not enforcing our laws is an invitation to get here by whatever means and remain hidden until it can be argued that they've satisfied squatter requirements. That illegals were and are desperate is understandable, but it's not an accident that Guatemala, El Salvador and others are what they are -- they didn't become dysfunctional societies because they were invaded and conquered, but by the social devolution that their own values and folkways summoned. If we tolerate a massive economic osmosis then we, too, could become Guatemala by having absorbed these same values and folkways in the numbers who come and we let stay.
Lot of Americans out there who don't want to become Guatemalans, not because there's anything inherently wrong with Guatemalans, but because that's just not who WE are.
Some also argue that we might attach so much importance and no more to tracking down and bringing to justice a car thief because of contending police funding priorities but that doesn't mean that when he's caught we just forgive him because he hasn't stolen a car in five years, has married and has a kid.
They have an argument, Mark. When people are desperate to enter and stay, not enforcing our laws is an invitation to get here by whatever means and remain hidden until it can be argued that they've satisfied squatter requirements. That illegals were and are desperate is understandable, but it's not an accident that Guatemala, El Salvador and others are what they are -- they didn't become dysfunctional societies because they were invaded and conquered, but by the social devolution that their own values and folkways summoned. If we tolerate a massive economic osmosis then we, too, could become Guatemala by having absorbed these same values and folkways in the numbers who come and we let stay.
Lot of Americans out there who don't want to become Guatemalans, not because there's anything inherently wrong with Guatemalans, but because that's just not who WE are.
72
We should start with eVerify. Fix the stealing of SSNs. Fix the broken visa programs. Bust human trafficking in small and large businesses. Require a livable minimum wage in all jobs. And carefully consider each individual not in terms of how long they have been here but how much they contribute. Would we have wanted them if they came legally and lived the life they did? And forget the christian litmus test; we can't take the whole world in and we aren't a christian nation in any sense of the word.
12
@ Mark Thomason - Mark, you have just provided a model for doing what I assert must be done in a comment just submitted at 05:40 GMT, keep the discussions of the 11,000,000 separate from discussions of asylum seekers. Then, as concerns the 11,000,000, see how far we can go in following your well formulated approach, given Donald Trump's promise to do otherwise.
Larry - Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Larry - Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
2
What is to be gained by breaking up families and sending people to a country they do not know and may not even be able to speak the language?
All these arrests and deportations do is satisfy the egos of some emotionally impotent personality. They hide behind the "illegal" label to hide their frustration of something that gives them justification for being mean spirited.
Our immigration laws were written to exclude a minority, the Asians and it has been applied inconsistently ever since; depending on the political direction of the country. It is used to satisfy the pseudo self esteem of the envious and prejudiced who have very little to offer themselves.
We can see it in their mean spirited attacks on those who take risks they would not, just to escape poverty and terror. Oh they cost us money they say, a few pennies is their criteria to avoid being humane. They take jobs, like what? cutting up chickens, cleaning out hog farms, and seasonal work. Oh just pay better say some of the cheapest people you will ever meet.
Across the nation many small towns were built by, and to service these illegals. You can see them in the farm states, they actually made the economy better and all of us richer. The narrow minded antis can not see that, it does not fit their simple economic views. Took your job, what job?
How have so many people become so bitter and inhumane in just a short lifetime? What a miserable way to live, taking out your frustrations on the less fortunate.
All these arrests and deportations do is satisfy the egos of some emotionally impotent personality. They hide behind the "illegal" label to hide their frustration of something that gives them justification for being mean spirited.
Our immigration laws were written to exclude a minority, the Asians and it has been applied inconsistently ever since; depending on the political direction of the country. It is used to satisfy the pseudo self esteem of the envious and prejudiced who have very little to offer themselves.
We can see it in their mean spirited attacks on those who take risks they would not, just to escape poverty and terror. Oh they cost us money they say, a few pennies is their criteria to avoid being humane. They take jobs, like what? cutting up chickens, cleaning out hog farms, and seasonal work. Oh just pay better say some of the cheapest people you will ever meet.
Across the nation many small towns were built by, and to service these illegals. You can see them in the farm states, they actually made the economy better and all of us richer. The narrow minded antis can not see that, it does not fit their simple economic views. Took your job, what job?
How have so many people become so bitter and inhumane in just a short lifetime? What a miserable way to live, taking out your frustrations on the less fortunate.
103
"What is to be gained"..? In the world of racism, of people as "other", the satisfaction gained by haters is the knowledge that others are suffering. It's sadism and let's name it as such. We, of course don't want to see the vileness of such behavior, but we must. Sadomasochism is tough to talk about but we must. Only then can we hold the Trumps and haters responsible for their political wrongs and social misdemeanors.
1
So it's okay for older Mexicans to come here where they don't speak the language but not okay to send the younger ones home if they don't?
Why is okay for all the Mexicans to shirk their responsibility to their fellow Mexicans? Why don't Mexicans spend less time invading our society and more time fixing up their own?
Why is okay for all the Mexicans to shirk their responsibility to their fellow Mexicans? Why don't Mexicans spend less time invading our society and more time fixing up their own?
8
Yes, those people on Ellis Island were cruel and inhumane because they turned back people with communicable diseases or lacked any job skills or were physically incapable of working. Those who were proved to be criminals in the old country were put back on the boat along with those who couldn't prove they wouldn't become a public charge or had no sponsors. How do we verify these standards when people just cross into our country where and when they please?
No country is required to take on anyone who makes it to the boat or airport and arrives on their shores. Why is this so difficult for the Left to understand?
No country is required to take on anyone who makes it to the boat or airport and arrives on their shores. Why is this so difficult for the Left to understand?
2
Absolutely.
We must break that fevered belief that laws actually matter and that national sovereignty is important.
We must break that fevered belief that laws actually matter and that national sovereignty is important.
132
Sovereignty has nothing to do with this.
Sure laws matter. Fine undocumented immigrants who have been otherwise law abiding and let them stay.
Sure laws matter. Fine undocumented immigrants who have been otherwise law abiding and let them stay.
2
We must break the fevered belief that deporting otherwise law abiding undocumented immigrants is a punishment that comes anywhere close to fitting the crime. Especially when it breaks up families and punishes innocents who had no part of the decision to come to this country.
You want to show that immigration laws matter? Don't make the punishments cruel and draconian. Have hefty fines, for example.
You want to show that immigration laws matter? Don't make the punishments cruel and draconian. Have hefty fines, for example.
2
Your somewhat ludicrous reference to national sovereignty aside, and rather than adult solutions to millions of decent, contributing people who have been here for many years, are you saying you would be in favor of the greatest manhunt since what took place in Europe in the early 1940s?
The lack of compassion for those 11 million people among so many people in this country is a slap in the face to anyone of conscience. It angers me to a level I didn't know I was capable of. I despise nationalism and don't care where any of my fellow human beings are born. Let us judge people by the content of their character, and we will find that immigrants are often far superior to the sorry specimens we produce at home.
124
You can sleep well at night, unlike those angry xenophobic antis.
15
Ben, I used to donate to a local organization that helps resettle immigrants, and I continue to feel grateful to the cultural diversity immigrants add to our nation. However, I've come to believe the issue of immigration is a matter of numbers. Automation and overseas manufacturing will continue to decrease jobs even as population growth increases demands for employment. The higher the population, the more impossible it becomes to feed, house, provide health care, educate everyone. Not to mention environmental degradation. Over-population leads to civil unrest, conditions that can bring down an empire. Control of immigration isn't necessarily based on racism or nationalism or fondness for Trump, but concession to the realistic impact of numbers.
18
Those immigrants have deeper respect for and understanding of the United States than the sorry specimen currently occupying the White House.
1
One never understand the media.Mr Trump has been elected by americans and the people are no fools,they knew what for he has been chosen by them them who are the media and the opposition to decide that Mr Trump is threat to Americans and the world.The media now must stop diverting the real issue.Mr Trump is the President and he should be allowed to practice whatever he promised to the Americans and the world.Why the media indulge in criticizing whatever he does.Then what is the point in having elections.Everyone has right to express its opinions but not to indulge in creating hurdles everynow and then without even understanding him and not giving him time to prove his policies and also why to divert the real issues the whole world is facing nowadays because of Terrorism and Extremists in Islam.
62
And what is the point of having a democracy if the elected leader is given a total free reign? How long would that democracy last if a single individual calls the shots?
Politicians will say anything to get elected - the more general, the more alarmist and the more broad the solutions the politician announces, the more effective the speeches, and the broader the support. The more votes, in other words.
But when the politicians are placed in the position of fashioning law, it's a different job - a job they're not always good at doing, a job full of detail, precedent, procedure and a lot of legitimately involved people. Legitimate because their involvement is at the heart of this country's system of government.
And if you'd like to see examples of hurdles placed before a president's actions, try looking over what's been going on in the U.S. congress over the last eight years. It's part of the package, and has been so for a long time.
Politicians will say anything to get elected - the more general, the more alarmist and the more broad the solutions the politician announces, the more effective the speeches, and the broader the support. The more votes, in other words.
But when the politicians are placed in the position of fashioning law, it's a different job - a job they're not always good at doing, a job full of detail, precedent, procedure and a lot of legitimately involved people. Legitimate because their involvement is at the heart of this country's system of government.
And if you'd like to see examples of hurdles placed before a president's actions, try looking over what's been going on in the U.S. congress over the last eight years. It's part of the package, and has been so for a long time.
2
Trump is a US president. not a king.
Three equal branches of government as empowered and constrained by the Constitution.
Three equal branches of government as empowered and constrained by the Constitution.
2
The public's duty to provide feedback to the government is not limited to elections. When he goes off course people will speak up, and that's how democracy works.
Also, the issues with terrorism and Muslim extremists is not yet important for the U.S. If you look at premature deaths, for instance, they are mostly due to accidents and suicides involving guns. It would be far wiser to worry about that, as you are never likely to be harmed by a terrorist.
Also, the issues with terrorism and Muslim extremists is not yet important for the U.S. If you look at premature deaths, for instance, they are mostly due to accidents and suicides involving guns. It would be far wiser to worry about that, as you are never likely to be harmed by a terrorist.
1
Trump is only doing what is legal. Border and Immigration laws are there for a reason. Trump is not anti immigrant only anti illegal immigration. Personally, I think he should declare an amnesty for illegal immigrants and only deport the ones with criminal records. If he does that then he could offer legal citizenship to the law abiding overstayers and illegals if they fill in a form to let the government know how they came into the country, and whom helped them and what were the motives of legal citizens in doing so. If he does that then the government can start afresh and block the massive holes in the system that encourages illegal immigration. Who knows! Even the tax department might discover lots of cash only businesses profiting off slave labour and fraudulent documentation. People trafficking is a business.
76
Reagan's amnesty to two million illegal immigrants was an open invitation to the twelve million who followed. Another amnesty will invite many more millions. At some point, every parent learns that they must be firm, that naughty behavior continues until it leads to consequences. Deportation is very sad for those affected, but what did they expect when they paid the coyotes to lead them through the desert at night?
14
Sorry, but Trump's motivations have nothing to do with the law. He has a dismal history of failing to comply with it himself, and his recent Executive Order was immediately blocked, not because of a liberal consipiracy but because it violated the constitution.
In fact, in his efforts to impress his supporters he will probably make similar mistakes when rounding illegals, and get slapped down again.
In fact, in his efforts to impress his supporters he will probably make similar mistakes when rounding illegals, and get slapped down again.
4
The Judiciary says Trump's travel ban may have gone beyond the legal. Residents with green cards and other valid visas were kept out of the Country illegally.
I watched Trump lie this afternoon (Saturday), saying residents with visas have not been seriously vetted. Truth is, they have been vetted for 18 - 24 months.
Jesus said welcome the stranger. (Matthew 25)
Trump says be very afraid of the stranger.
Are all conservatives such cowards and anti-Christians?
I watched Trump lie this afternoon (Saturday), saying residents with visas have not been seriously vetted. Truth is, they have been vetted for 18 - 24 months.
Jesus said welcome the stranger. (Matthew 25)
Trump says be very afraid of the stranger.
Are all conservatives such cowards and anti-Christians?
1
I encourage all U.S. citizens to practice civil disobedience if questioned by an ICE official. Refuse to show them ID or prove your citizenship.
When a doctor of Arab descent, or a small business owner of Latino heritage, is arrested by ICE despite being an American citizen, perhaps the rest of this country will wake up to what is really happening.
When a doctor of Arab descent, or a small business owner of Latino heritage, is arrested by ICE despite being an American citizen, perhaps the rest of this country will wake up to what is really happening.
41
The rest of the country is tired of being told to welcome in all the world's Mexicans and Muslims.
6
And I encourage ICE to just round up anyone who cannot prove or refuses to prove that they are a citizen or legal resident.
9
Come on, you engage in fear mongering,No doctor of Arab descent is being arrested by ICE if they are here legally,and I know many and they have their legal papers.
All immigrants should be treated fairly but according to the law.I support Trump on this issue but will do anything to fight unfair and un-lawful treatment of any human being.
All immigrants should be treated fairly but according to the law.I support Trump on this issue but will do anything to fight unfair and un-lawful treatment of any human being.
5
I'm confused, are we talking about illegal immigrants or legal immigrants? Conflating these two groups, while helpful to paint an evil picture, is important to truthfully understand and discuss American's "immigration" policy.
But by failing to distinguish the difference, both sides will remain in their respective corners.
But by failing to distinguish the difference, both sides will remain in their respective corners.
175
The conflation of the two groups, legal and illegal is the Times and other media's purpose. It works well with those too ignorant to discern the difference like all the school kids who walked out of schools yesterday because they don't know the difference.
6
There is no anti-immigrant fever! We just happen to think that you should be here legally. We could have 11M amazing immigrants from all over the world if we did not have 11M line cutters.
210
"There is no anti-immigrant fever."
Really? Not where I sit. I see it everywhere.
Really? Not where I sit. I see it everywhere.
2
Where did this "line cutter" hogwash come from? Have you read that term on ICE or Homeland Security's websites? Yeah. No. I don't think so!
The idea that undocumented immigrants will cut ahead and obtain their residency faster than those who immigrated with a visa is a myth that is repeated ad nauseum by the right. The goal is to pit immigrant against immigrant. Shrewd move.
The idea that undocumented immigrants will cut ahead and obtain their residency faster than those who immigrated with a visa is a myth that is repeated ad nauseum by the right. The goal is to pit immigrant against immigrant. Shrewd move.
2
Trump is not anti-immigrant he is anti illegal immigration. If you came into the country lawfully and paid all the correct fees and filled in the forms correctly, then you can stay. The law is the law and ignorance of the law is no excuse. If there are 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA then whose paying for all their kids education, hospital care, and retirement pensions. If you're illegally in a nation then that makes a mockery of border control and immigration laws in your nation. Border control and immigration laws are there for a reason: He's just trying to bring some law and order into the USA.
179
Trump's executive order banned green card holders - people who "came into the country lawfully and paid all the correct fees and filled in the forms correctly" - from returning to the US. The only thing they did "wrong" was to travel in January.
"We're not against legal immigrants, we just want "Law and order" - except when the law interferes with our Islamaphobia.
"We're not against legal immigrants, we just want "Law and order" - except when the law interferes with our Islamaphobia.
6
It's not likely that illegal immigrants are applying for or receiving retirement pensions, although many are paying into that system, as well as federal, local and state tax deductions from their jobs and consumerism.
The sluggos are mostly white trash living in red states doing meth.
The sluggos are mostly white trash living in red states doing meth.
2
I do not believe that the people who are claim only to be anti-illegal immigration see much of a difference between those people who are in the country illegally vs. legally. I doubt that they see beyond skin color. I will be more clear: the immigrants they are concerned about are brown and black, and maybe Asian. What is there to stop the from thinking that I could be an immigrant. Why, my white skin.
4
Here's hoping the fever only breaks when the job is done. Kudos to President Trump for enforcing the law and taking reasonable steps to end illegal immigration. It's about time.
156
When is ICE going to start to deport some of the European illegals?
1
Let us hope they pursue all illegals similarly. Immigrating illegally by overstaying a visa is just as illegal as walking across the border in the dead of night.
1
People feel indignant when unethical businesses using corporate legalese to con them. Perhaps they are right. Even though they are liable because they have signed their name on the dotted line but who is time to read twenty pages of fine prints. In their mind, they may be legally liable but they feel they were morally wronged.
Yet, the same people support the POTUS indiscriminate immigration policy irrespective of the immigrant's circumstance. They don't care because they what? Feel threatened? Jealous? Their mind is poisoned?
Have they not learned from others? Once upon a time, Jews and Arabs lived alongside each other peacefully. The same in so many places and conflicts. But America is the melting pot. Yet, they choose shortsighted selfishness to long term goodness of the spirit.
So it may be President Trump who gave the order but he is just a mirror-mirror-on-the-wall
Yet, the same people support the POTUS indiscriminate immigration policy irrespective of the immigrant's circumstance. They don't care because they what? Feel threatened? Jealous? Their mind is poisoned?
Have they not learned from others? Once upon a time, Jews and Arabs lived alongside each other peacefully. The same in so many places and conflicts. But America is the melting pot. Yet, they choose shortsighted selfishness to long term goodness of the spirit.
So it may be President Trump who gave the order but he is just a mirror-mirror-on-the-wall
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Jews and Germans lived peacefully before 1933 as well.
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Yes, many of these people are here illegally. Some have been here for decades. Many have children who were born here.
Those on the right claim that these people are taking jobs away from legal residents. Who wants to be a migrant farm worker? Who want to work in a meat packing plant? Who wants to roof a house in August? Who wants to cut the grass all day or trim trees 50 feet off the ground?
No one else will do that kind of work. It is not possible to take something from someone who doesn't want it. That's the problem. If qualified, responsible white people would show up and do this kind of work, they would be hired.
So the right attempts to rid the nation of those that want to come here and do the work that our own people won't do. Do you think that maybe the legacy of slavery is causing white privilege to raise it's ugly head?
One could argue that the illegals are pure capitalism at work. Supply and demand is at work here. There is a supply of jobs that the locals have no demand for. So immigrants come here to fulfil them. If the locals really wanted those jobs, would they be filled by immigrants? But then, the locals do everything they can to remove unions and fight against raising the minimum wage. Result? The jobs don't pay enough for the locals to take them. The market has then circumvented the rules to satisfy the demand.
Those on the right claim that these people are taking jobs away from legal residents. Who wants to be a migrant farm worker? Who want to work in a meat packing plant? Who wants to roof a house in August? Who wants to cut the grass all day or trim trees 50 feet off the ground?
No one else will do that kind of work. It is not possible to take something from someone who doesn't want it. That's the problem. If qualified, responsible white people would show up and do this kind of work, they would be hired.
So the right attempts to rid the nation of those that want to come here and do the work that our own people won't do. Do you think that maybe the legacy of slavery is causing white privilege to raise it's ugly head?
One could argue that the illegals are pure capitalism at work. Supply and demand is at work here. There is a supply of jobs that the locals have no demand for. So immigrants come here to fulfil them. If the locals really wanted those jobs, would they be filled by immigrants? But then, the locals do everything they can to remove unions and fight against raising the minimum wage. Result? The jobs don't pay enough for the locals to take them. The market has then circumvented the rules to satisfy the demand.
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You are trying to argue with the most narrow closed minded people (And I hesitate to call them that) we have ever seen in this country, since the anti Asian movement that gave us these draconian immigration laws.
These are people that despise themselves as much as they do those immigrants, with or without papers. No soul, no humanity, just irrational hate.
These are people that despise themselves as much as they do those immigrants, with or without papers. No soul, no humanity, just irrational hate.
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What you don't realize, Mr. Rozenblitt, is that the oversupply of cheap immigrant labor has greatly reduced wages. Meat packers used to make a good union wage. Now, due to mass immigration, they make barely more than minimum wage, and labor under atrocious conditions. This is why the Koch brothers and big biz GOPers favor more immigration.
In fact, numbers from a study last fall by the US National Academy of Sciences show that mass immigration causes a transfer of half a Trillion (with a T) dollars annually from low wage American workers in competition with immigrants to business owners. (The owners are able to reduce the wages, so money that should have gone to the workers ends up in the owners' pockets.)
Mass immigration also made it much easier for GOPers to eviscerate the unions. You can't repeal the laws of supply and demand.
In fact, numbers from a study last fall by the US National Academy of Sciences show that mass immigration causes a transfer of half a Trillion (with a T) dollars annually from low wage American workers in competition with immigrants to business owners. (The owners are able to reduce the wages, so money that should have gone to the workers ends up in the owners' pockets.)
Mass immigration also made it much easier for GOPers to eviscerate the unions. You can't repeal the laws of supply and demand.
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This issue of " jobs that Americans will not do " can be handled by a registered guest worker program. Some of those who are here as undocumented immigrants , if they have lived here without committing crimes, can be allowed to register in the program and participate in those jobs. This will result in these workers being treated more fairly by their employers and our government being able to more adequately track who is within our borders , allowing it to deport those who are " bad actors. "
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"This is the currency of the Trump aides Stephen Bannon and Stephen Miller, who have brought the world of the alt-right, with its white nationalist strain, into the White House."
I see this as a form of non-mortal genocide, or ethnic cleansing. I've read that businesses who employ high numbers of immigrants to take on the dirty jobs Americans don't want are simply furious. I've learned that was said on the campaign trail has morphed into getting rid of every single undocumented resident.
And I also recall, with particular chagrin, how the House abdicated it's responsibility to at least bring up to vote a piece of carefully calibrated immigration reform that had passed the Senate without problems. In other words, the very issues that Trump milked to the hilt, would have not existed had the legislation--a blend of common sense steps to ensure that those people here illegally and responsible for serious crimes got deported while ensuring a path to citizenship based on hard work and solid contributions to society.
The Trump plan is merciless and mean. It's also counterproductive from the man who wants to make America great again. Greatness came from immigration. White nationalism will make America small, very small.
And it will jettison pretty much our entire history to appease a bunch of white supremacists who haven't done squat to make America a better place to live and work.
I see this as a form of non-mortal genocide, or ethnic cleansing. I've read that businesses who employ high numbers of immigrants to take on the dirty jobs Americans don't want are simply furious. I've learned that was said on the campaign trail has morphed into getting rid of every single undocumented resident.
And I also recall, with particular chagrin, how the House abdicated it's responsibility to at least bring up to vote a piece of carefully calibrated immigration reform that had passed the Senate without problems. In other words, the very issues that Trump milked to the hilt, would have not existed had the legislation--a blend of common sense steps to ensure that those people here illegally and responsible for serious crimes got deported while ensuring a path to citizenship based on hard work and solid contributions to society.
The Trump plan is merciless and mean. It's also counterproductive from the man who wants to make America great again. Greatness came from immigration. White nationalism will make America small, very small.
And it will jettison pretty much our entire history to appease a bunch of white supremacists who haven't done squat to make America a better place to live and work.
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President GW Bush, Jr. was ready to sign almost the exact same immigration reform legislation in 2006 and 2007. In fact, that time it passed the House. And would have passed the Senate and been law had 33 Democratic Senators simply voted yes. Instead, they voted together against it. Whether to deny Bush & Republicans any immigration success or because they feared for their reelection. That legislation even had the DREAM Act as a sub-component. But Democrats in the Senate were dead-set against it.
Same thing, Bill Clinton had the chance in 1995 and 1996 when he publicly and privately embraced the Barbara Jordan recommendations. But the Chinese campaign donors giving him illegal campaign donations for the 1996 reelection did not want reform. So he reneged on his commitments and froze out the Barbara Jordan Democrats to cut deals with corporatist Republicans.
Bottom-line: if the Democrats wanted immigration reform, they could have had it multiple times over the last 20 plus years. It's a wedge issue for both parties. This is about wage exploitation for campaign donors of both parties and throwing around these "my team good"/"other team white supremacist" arguments ignores the history.
Same thing, Bill Clinton had the chance in 1995 and 1996 when he publicly and privately embraced the Barbara Jordan recommendations. But the Chinese campaign donors giving him illegal campaign donations for the 1996 reelection did not want reform. So he reneged on his commitments and froze out the Barbara Jordan Democrats to cut deals with corporatist Republicans.
Bottom-line: if the Democrats wanted immigration reform, they could have had it multiple times over the last 20 plus years. It's a wedge issue for both parties. This is about wage exploitation for campaign donors of both parties and throwing around these "my team good"/"other team white supremacist" arguments ignores the history.
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Not buyin' it! America became great by legal immigration. By people who followed the law, played by the rules, and wanted very much to assimilate. There is absolutely no benefit to any country from massive gate-crashing by uneducated, third-world masses. And by your reasoning, if someone is against this they are somehow a "white supremacist". The Democrats lost on this issue alone. It's hard to believe "progressives" are still scratching their heads as to why for all of his major faults Trump is in power.
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That Senate immigration bill would have nearly tripled legal immigration while doing nothing to stop illegal immigration. That tripling would have created huge unemployment and sent working peoples' wages--already in the gutter--into the sewer. Working class Americans have it bad enough now.
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Immigrants are people. Yes, they are in this country illegally yes, they will alter the balance of privilege away from whites who rely on it like a form of welfare. Yes, they are people.
America once had a heart. It even had a soul. Now, it has gimme gimme gimme. It values dealmakers with no values, who think the world is there for for them to grab, whether it's an elderly woman's mortgage or a young woman's dignity.
We have to recapture our own dignity. We have to value people more than hate and greed. America is falling into the abyss.
America once had a heart. It even had a soul. Now, it has gimme gimme gimme. It values dealmakers with no values, who think the world is there for for them to grab, whether it's an elderly woman's mortgage or a young woman's dignity.
We have to recapture our own dignity. We have to value people more than hate and greed. America is falling into the abyss.
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The only "white" privilege these days is to shut up and pay taxes while getting nothing but scorn back.
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Secretary of Treasury, Steven Mnuchin, foreclosed on woman in her eighties who through a reading error was 27 cents in arrears in her mortgage payments.
Trump kind of hero.
Trump kind of hero.
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America is falling into the abyss because our government has spent billions of dollars on lawbreakers, instead of on our own people. I welcome any immigrant who enters the country legally.
Americans who condemn illegal immigration are neither racist nor xenophobic. Quite the opposite, they are champions of democracy. And all democracies are based on laws, period.
Americans who condemn illegal immigration are neither racist nor xenophobic. Quite the opposite, they are champions of democracy. And all democracies are based on laws, period.
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A big part of the problem with this editorial exhortation is that it merely plays to a choir that already lost on 8-9 Nov, 2016; and not just in Washington but across America at all levels of our governance. It might help some if you varied the losing arguments and the language you use to frame them. For instance, there is NO real “anti-immigrant fever” in America. The “fever” is directed at ILLEGAL immigration. Your insistent conflation of the two, as if borders did not exist, laws did not exist, the lines of people waiting patiently to LAWFULLY become Americans didn't exist, and the claim that cultures are immaterial, confirms you in a perpetual loss on this point. You’re not convincing enough Americans to make a material difference.
It’s not my job to give you specific ideas on how to be more effective in your messaging, but more effective you’d better become if you expect to have any impact on the round-ups, the detentions and the deportations. What may slow or even halt Trump are the logistical difficulties in rounding up and deporting millions of people here illegally, and in detaining the continuing flow rather than “releasing” them to disappear into the general population of sheetrock-hangers and window-installers. But it won’t be your arguments.
Trump already has made it clear that he’s not going after the DACA kids, and telegraphed that pretty insistently to Congress at his 77-minute “gobsmack”. Short of physical limitations, that’s about all you can hope for.
It’s not my job to give you specific ideas on how to be more effective in your messaging, but more effective you’d better become if you expect to have any impact on the round-ups, the detentions and the deportations. What may slow or even halt Trump are the logistical difficulties in rounding up and deporting millions of people here illegally, and in detaining the continuing flow rather than “releasing” them to disappear into the general population of sheetrock-hangers and window-installers. But it won’t be your arguments.
Trump already has made it clear that he’s not going after the DACA kids, and telegraphed that pretty insistently to Congress at his 77-minute “gobsmack”. Short of physical limitations, that’s about all you can hope for.
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I doubt that the Dreamer in custody right now will be comforted by your words.
I don't see how you can claim with a straight face that this just about "illegal" immigration. If that were the only issue, we'd have passed laws to fine any otherwise law abiding immigrant without papers and grant them citizenship.
But no. All immigrants, including refugees who are here legally after a 2 year vetting period, have been made scapegoats for our economic woes, and treated as if they were all likely to be criminals and terrorists. Some anti-immigrant folks have characterized immigration as "invasion."
The Republicans don't want to actually institute a fair and workable immigration system, because it's too useful as an issue to rile up the base. Besides, doing so would cost money and interfere with their 'anti-govenment, taxes are evil' meme that has led them to obstruct government action.
You're right about one thing. If anything will interfere with the Republicans' anti-immigrant agenda, it will be how much it would cost to deport so many. Certainly the cruelty of Trump's policy doesn't phase them.
I don't see how you can claim with a straight face that this just about "illegal" immigration. If that were the only issue, we'd have passed laws to fine any otherwise law abiding immigrant without papers and grant them citizenship.
But no. All immigrants, including refugees who are here legally after a 2 year vetting period, have been made scapegoats for our economic woes, and treated as if they were all likely to be criminals and terrorists. Some anti-immigrant folks have characterized immigration as "invasion."
The Republicans don't want to actually institute a fair and workable immigration system, because it's too useful as an issue to rile up the base. Besides, doing so would cost money and interfere with their 'anti-govenment, taxes are evil' meme that has led them to obstruct government action.
You're right about one thing. If anything will interfere with the Republicans' anti-immigrant agenda, it will be how much it would cost to deport so many. Certainly the cruelty of Trump's policy doesn't phase them.
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That's it in a nutshell. They insisted that immigration was immigration, and we had to support their agenda or be called deplorable racists. We called their bluff.
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I bet few supporters of the president pay any attention to this and other progressive biased media, they are shouting to the converted.
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You make it so clear that your newspaper is written for those who see no difference between those here legally and illegally.
It is "us" vs "them." Where you have erased differences that are important to many. Where it appears to be wrong, by your lights to even insist such differences exist. Let alone that those differences have ramifications.
Do you not see that this builds support for Trump's actions?
It is "us" vs "them." Where you have erased differences that are important to many. Where it appears to be wrong, by your lights to even insist such differences exist. Let alone that those differences have ramifications.
Do you not see that this builds support for Trump's actions?
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No. Trump will alienate the world.
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Please keep in mind that a great many Whte Nationalists, reformed or not, oppose even LEGAL immigration.
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All but a few pureblood native Americans came here illegally, in very real sense. Most of us, our European forebears came either when there were no immigration laws or when those law reflected economic reality, not when they were used to mobilize prejudice and hate in order to score political points.
By far most Hispanic "illegals" have been here more than 10 years, many over 20. Many are parents of teachers and lawyers who are native-born citizens. (Yes, I know some of both.) They are grandparents. This is an insane situation, and mass deportations are neither an economically productive or humanly decent solution.
Sadly, some politicians are highly skilled in appealing to fear and resentment. More sadly, enough time has passed that we no longer recall the last political leader of a great Western nation who made it to the top that way: A little guy with a moustache whom remember only as an evil caricature, not as a real person in a nation of good people who are not-too-distant cousins of many of us.
No, we wont come to the same fate as he did; we have too many nukes, etc. But we are doing the same thing his followers did. And acting like we're proud of it.
By far most Hispanic "illegals" have been here more than 10 years, many over 20. Many are parents of teachers and lawyers who are native-born citizens. (Yes, I know some of both.) They are grandparents. This is an insane situation, and mass deportations are neither an economically productive or humanly decent solution.
Sadly, some politicians are highly skilled in appealing to fear and resentment. More sadly, enough time has passed that we no longer recall the last political leader of a great Western nation who made it to the top that way: A little guy with a moustache whom remember only as an evil caricature, not as a real person in a nation of good people who are not-too-distant cousins of many of us.
No, we wont come to the same fate as he did; we have too many nukes, etc. But we are doing the same thing his followers did. And acting like we're proud of it.
6