Bashar al-Assad—the distillation of evil.
Aided and abetted by a fellow ruthless cold-blooded dictator, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
And unfortunately Turkey’s Recep Erdogan is also a brutal strongman dictator.
8
The Turks should retaliate. The Russian participation in killing 33 Turkish troops was no accident. The Russians want control and Turkey is a roadblock.
5
Putin had to be stopped back when he started killing his political opponents.
3
Anyone else remember during a state visit to USA, Erdogan’s security beat up peaceful protesters at a public park USA soil? Let’s send those security men to Syria.
6
I get the feeling Turkey and Russia are working together to play the West for a fool......sow chaos. No direct confrontation is needed, just a weak enemy.
3
I kept thinking that with all of the coronavirus scare, it would be a good time for some military strike. But to attack Syria and then ask the continent that is starting to quarantine its people for help is beyond stupid. Striking Europe or China at this time would have been plausible but Erdogan doesn't seem to be playing with a full deck.
1
That's "nationalism" for you...dictators thumping their chests and trying to prop up their own popularity with military adventures. Every country pursuing its agenda in a zero sum game. Of course you'll have confrontations and wars.
But in this dog-eat-dog type of game, Putin is a bigger dog than Erdogan. Suddenly, all that go-it-alone attitude is forgotten, and Erdogan runs to his NATO friends with his tail between his legs. I guess taking on Russia is a bit tougher than massacring Kurds.
4
Oh give me a break. Turkey is trying to prevent a serial killer, the so called “President” of Syria from killing civilians as NATO should have done long ago in 2011 instead of allowing Russia to invade Crimea, Ukraine, Syria, and Libya and even use Novichok against the UK.
4
Erdogan is a Muslim Brotherhood thug with grand illusions of recreating the Ottoman Empire. He was also an early ISIS supporter, providing safe transit through Turkey to any and all international wannabe terrorists wanting to join them. After ISIS captured Syrian oil fields it's no coincidence they funneled it's distribution through Turkey. When ISIS was crushed by US forces together with the Kurds he decided to become directly involved and invaded Syria to ostensibly "create a buffer zone" between Turkey and the Kurds whose independent streak have made them a thorn in his side for years. One suspects that his real goal is the Syrian oil fields that the US is now defending.
President Trump wisely got our troops out of the conflict zone so an arrogant and foolish Erdogan could satiate his imperialist desires. Now that his nose has been bloodied by the Russians he looks like a belligerent drunken fool who starts a bar room brawl hoping that his pals will do the fighting for him. Too bad for him NATO, or should I say the US don't consider him a pal.
2
Maybe Turkey can use some of those S-400 ground-to-air missiles they bought from russia to shoot down some Russian airplanes....
2
Erdogan is a Muslim Brotherhood thug with grand illusions of recreating the Ottoman Empire. He was also an early ISIS supporter, providing safe transit through Turkey to any and all international wannabe terrorists wanting to join them. After ISIS captured Syrian oil fields it's no coincidence they funneled it's distribution through Turkey. When ISIS was crushed by US forces together with the Kurds he decided to become directly involved and invaded Syria to ostensibly "create a buffer zone" between Turkey and the Kurds whose independent streak have made them a thorn in his side for years. One suspects that his real goal is the Syrian oil fields that the US is now defending.
President Trump wisely got our troops out of the conflict zone so an arrogant and foolish Erdogan could satiate his imperialist desires. Now that his nose has been bloodied by the Russians he looks like a belligerent drunken fool who starts a bar room brawl hoping that his pals will do the fighting for him. Too bad for him NATO, or should I say the US don't consider him a pal.
After the creation of two religions from middle east the war never ended . 2500 yrs back we had only hindu religion and proper way of life .
New religions war game consists of converting and killing and creating slaves has not ended yet.
Time to learn from india never invaded a nation and nor interested in spreading any religion .
Its shame educated people born under a religion are still uneducated who do not rise and find the mistakes in the books followed by billons and give then new direction .
everyone is blaming Turkey - but see what happens when a dotard US president can't even think far enough for policy. The US is absent and it has rapidly becoming an even more extreme bloody conflict, with children freezing to death and thousands fleeing Assads unholy war. Thanks Trump.
9
“Karma” may not be a Turkish word.
But it should be.
5
Hey, if the US can "shock and awe". its way across the Middle East, invading and killing at will, turning country after country into a war zone, why not Turkey?
Hugh
6
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham on Thursday called for the establishment of a no-fly zone over Syria’s Idlib and called on President Donald Trump to help stop the killing of civilians there by Syrian government forces backed by Russia and Iran.“ (Reuters UK)
Lindsey Graham like Turkey has not learned much . He never fails to jump to grab an opportunity of engulfing US into any meaningless war and to any prospect or possibility of any war anywhere .
9
So we pulled out and here's Turkey and Russia "vying" for the control of this new area in Syria that's just come up on the market. Not sure why we wanted it and don't know why others might since there's not much there. These interventions ignore or kill the People living there, but the strongmen don't care about that. It may be that the so-called leaders (save us from leaders) are trashing this area for domestic political reasons. Strongmen can do what they want without their People behind them. And that's why we need a strong and united United Nations; their job is to protect People everywhere and stop the strongmen from acting out. There must be a more efficient way to intervene like transferring their off-shore accounts to the People in the middle. That would stop change their behavior fast.
1
Not that I much care of Russia's backing of the Assad regime, but considering Turkey's opportunistic behavior there is no reason NATO should be backing Erdogan trying playing "the Great Game" in Syria.
14
I think Turkey should transport the Syrian refugees to Europe starting with Cyprus and the Greek islands. It is more logical and humane for Turkey to facilitate the free movement of refugees than to mess with Russia. The refugees suffered enough due to the failure of global powers. They should be given an equal opportunity.
Europeans talk big words about human rights but do very little to secure peace along NATO's borders or contribute their fair share to the UN or the WHO. When there is a war, Americans need to rescue them. Syrian refugees would add growth and creativity to the European economies. It would be a win-win solution.
No one will win the war in Syria until the refugee problem is resolved.
8
Now Erdogan calls for EU, NATO help menacing them of who knows what kind of revenge...This dictator is just a little man like many others, in power just to enrich himself and his family.
6
Sounds just like Putin. He has embezzled up to 200 billion dollars from the Russian people for his own enrichment.
2
Turkey deserves immediate expulsion from NATO and total sanctions. The massive support it's lent ISIS and al Qaeda should be enough.
The involvement of Erdogan's family in ISIS' oil trade and medical facilities, the shipping of arms disguised as medical relief, the false flag attacks against the Turkish public blamed on the Kurds ...
The use of rape as a weapon of war and the crucifixions that took place in the Afrin campaign are surely enough to try Erdogan for crimes against humanity at the Hague.
He's not a NATO ally, and he despises the West. At this point in time, he poses by far the greatest threat to World peace since WW2.
Is Trump Towers Istanbul really worth all this?
12
@Pete
Blaming Turkey without mentioning US-UK is like blaming Mujhaheddin for “expulsion” of Soviet by Soviet without them pointing the fingers at the USA.
Oil sale is little complex . You may want to find out who received those oils .
4
What a mess. A tragic, horrible mess. It sounds like the people quoted in the article are rolling out the standard, canned language. Sending signals. I don't get the impression that anyone has any idea about what to do.
4
Belarus and dictatorial Syrian children, the elderly, because of the woman s killing is unknown exiled from their homeland sheer belief, never looking at a world country refugees embattled accept anticipating the turkey to 4 million people and are returned to the new refugees not get people home he is trying to provide çatışmasızlık environment and soldiers are killed and turkish military criminal says what is he doing there because people are silent to the crimes of cruel assad because they are Muslims?
3
Thiis puts in a different light the events of May 2018 when American forces obliterated Syrian fighters and Russian mercenaries. It was a thing of beauty and happy that Mattis was calling the shots there.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html
5
@Jerry Jerry, i could not agree with you more, overwhelming force - the USA Air Force showed Putin how its done. Unfortunately this is not to be here under the watch of Erdogan i am afraid.
2
"Ian Bond, head of foreign policy studies at the Center for European Reform in London, warned that “if the Turks are driven out of Idlib, then there is nothing in the way of a massacre.” That would have security implications and implications for refugee flows, Mr. Bond said."
And yet, the Europeans can't stand up to Russia, the main source of conflict in the world.
5
So Turkey refused American troops passage through its territory during the Iraq war and has not ceased spitting on the US ever since. Please don't expect us to come bail you out.
4
No sympathy for Erdogan, but he has taken in millions of refugees and not killed and tortured hundreds of thousands of Syrians as have Russian and Iranian forces allied with Assad. Also fascinating that American and British boycotters of Israel give a pass to the butchers of Syria.
7
Turkey created and supported isis, then invaded Syria to fight “terrorism “ and then threatens Europe with an invasion of refugees if they don’t bail erdogan from the mess h created as he continues genocide against the Kurds. For once I’m on Putin’s side.
7
Did I see anywhere in this coverage any quote whatsoever from any US official whatsoever?
3
Trump has abdicated American leadership abroad.
3
Yes, look at the last sentence
Maybe RTE should not be buying SS-400 missile from NATO's enemy. This is Czar Vlad I testing NATO resolve to see if it work and then on to the Baltics.
5
Turkey under Erdogan and his political agenda entered to Syrian conflict as a Sunni Arab backing force.
Almost 9 years later later this decision proven to be a colossal mistake.
Turkey in its geopolitical place has a long standing policy of neutrality. Erdogan abandon and disrespectfully demean that idea.
Syria and Russian Naval base no matter what must be conserved by Putin and new Russian strategy.
Endgame is Suppressing Sunni Muslims or coercing them to accept Syrian regime. If not annihilation is the choice.
Turkey cannot protect Sunnis , also cannot eternally host them . But Turkey neck deep in the swamp
Erdogan prepared his own end, however this end will not play very nice. Turkey is not used to go war alone, particularly against Russia.
3
Turkey under Erdogan and his political agenda entered to Syrian conflict as a Sunni Arab backing force.
Almost 9 years later later this decision proven to be a colossal mistake.
Turkey in its geopolitical place has a long standing policy of neutrality. Erdogan abandon and disrespectfully demean that idea.
Syria and Russian Naval base no matter what must be conserved by Putin and new Russian strategy.
Endgame is Suppressing Sunni Muslims or coercing them to accept Syrian regime. If not annihilation is the choice.
Turkey cannot protect Sunnis , also cannot eternally host them . But Turkey neck deep in the swamp
Erdogan prepared his own end, however this end will not play very nice. Turkey is not used to go war alone, particularly against Russia.
If the Syrian Civil War were allowed to end, with a complete and total Victor by the Assad regime, and by Russia, then nearly 9 years of fighting and destruction will have all been in vain. If Turkey is willing to provide some of the boots on the ground, then the NATO powers ought to provide Turkey with stand-off weapons systems to challenge Russia's domination and control of Idlib's Airspace. Surface-to-Air missiles could be deployed, to shoot down any Syrian warplanes, and even "Syrian" (i.e. Russian) warplanes. Surface-to-Surface missiles can be launched at any concentrations of troops fighting for the Assad regime.
Of course, Turkish President Erdogan is rather a bully himself. Look at the mess that he made for Turkey by capturing the Kurdish enclaves of Afrin, and launching an incursion into the heart of Syrian Kurdistan, Rojava.
Erdogan only has two choices: Back down and let the Syrian Government retake all of Idlib, or escalate the fight, committing a larger and better armed contingent of Turkish forces, both in Idlib, and also in favor of the Tripoli Government, in the Libyan Civil War.
Erdogan wants Turkey to be a regional powerhouse. But he is finding that when he tries to use the Turkish military to project Turkish power, it can be a hard slog -- both bloody and expensive. These "Circuses" are proving not to be a very good distraction from Turkey's deepening Economic problems.
8
Turkey is clearly the agrressor in Syria.
It attacked and invaded a neighbour state under violation of international law, with the purpose to illegally annex parts of Syrian territory.
The republic of Syria and her Russian ally are just defending Syria's souvereignty.
This is neither an attack on a NATO member state nor a defense case. There is absolutely no reason for NATO to support the Turkish aggression.
9
This is a story that should dwarf all others, but few among the general public seem interested in the least. Syria is a power keg ready to explode with potential catastrophic effects that would change our world order forever. Sound like an exaggeration? It is not.
Turkey is a member of NATO; Russia is why NATO was created in the first place. Article 5 of the NATO Charter codifies the principle of collective defense, and it is at the very heart of NATO’s founding treaty. It remains a unique and enduring principle that binds its members together, committing them to protect each other and setting a spirit of solidarity within the Alliance.
In short, if one NATO member is attacked, all members, including the US, must come to the aid of the country attacked.
What is happening in Syria could turn into a hot war between Turkey and Russia. If that happens a much larger conflagration would erupt and nuclear war is a possibility. On the other hand, if NATO does nothing for Turkey if attacked NATO may be doomed to become an anachronism, and the system that has kept the peace in the West since World War II would be dismantled.
This is a more serious situation than coronavirus, and the public should be as aware of it - more so than another flu virus.
6
Unintentional blowback for enticing trump to pull back US troops in Nov., leaving our allies, the Kurds to die. Couldn’t happen to a worse leader, Mr. Erdovan.
3
“Turkey, desperate to keep Mr. Assad’s last foes alive”
They’re mostly civilians, not foes.
8
Erdogan just purchased missiles from the country that coordinated and backed the strikes that killed Turkish soldiers. The Syrian briar patch is working as advertised.
3
Turkey must be dreaming.
‘Turkey Stands Firm Against Russia’ … Turkey … what? Are you serious?
You mean, like Georgia, they too stood firm against Russia. 6 days later they were the second largest army in their own country and have pretty much disappeared from the world map since. No turkey must be joking. Russia is not like NATO or the USA, they do not give you a heads up and ample warnings. And they are not a rag tag bunch of desert people manning Ak47’s either.
Like a chihuahua snarling at a large bear.
First off, Turkey invaded a foreign country. They were not invited by the local government or were part of a peace keeping force. They up and crossed an international border with tanks. The Russians are there at the invitation and request of the local government, and are fighting with the local government. Legally Russia is an ally and Turkey an armed invader.
They also did not get NATO’s agreement to do this. NATO should be able to say this was an independent action by one of their members, not a NATO matter, and walk away from this mess. And they should do that right before Turkey, not in deep trouble, tries to call for article 5, which would pit NATO and the US vs Russia. And yea, we are not going to war with Russia over this.
So let Russia kick Turkey to the border. Turkey is not going to release refugees into Europe, their neighbors will just close the border and that’s the end of that.
5
So Turkey wants help to finish what it helped to create. I suggest he(erdogan) call trump and see if he has any other bright ideas fix this. Until someone slaps putin back and lays the law down to Turkey, this will only get worse. One day, sooner or later, we'll have to deal with putin and make it unbearable for him to create these kinds of situations, including our election integrity. Hit him in the mouth a few times and he'll back off. Doing nothing got us to this point.
2
Turkey bit off more than it can chew.
3
The U S position should be that Turkey thrust itself into the midst of the Syrian War because of their paranoid, half-demented hatred of the Kurds. They entered without the consent or help of NATO and should therefore extricate themselves without NATOs help.
5
Did Erdogan think it was going to be a walk in the park when he sent his troops into Syria? It's such a quagmire you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys from the terrorists. Maybe they all deserve each other, and I'm just glad U.S. troops aren't involved. Let Assad, Putin and Erdogan work it out.
1
So, uhhh...What was the "Big Dog" of NATO, the United States, position during this meeting? Its all very well to get the opinion of some Scandinavian EU diplomat, but who takes them seriously on matters of political brinkmanship?
The American King's frustration with Turkey's Erdogan and his affinity for Russia's Putin is well known. Very few of those Syrian refugees will find their way across the Atlantic. This looks increasingly like another instance where the EU backs down in the face of a threat.
America's silence in this matter seems prophetic. "Peace in our time?"
1
It is probably not the best idea but my first impulse was that NATO should have sent a squadron without even asking and completely destroyed the Russian AFB and shot down any of them who tried to fight.
3
I am dumbfounded that the civilized world has not taken Russia to task here, they are the instigator, the puppetmaster, the provider of all the arms and materiel and yet, they have not been hit with punishing economic sanctions for their dastardly behavior; their indiscriminate carpet bombing of Aleppo, and the neighborhoods around Damascus and now this in Idlib, creating a humanitarian crisis of unprecedented scale. This monster Putin has wrought death and destruction throughout his 20 year tenure but this beats all. Time for the civilized world to convene and put an end to his brutal reign and impose heavy sectoral sanctions to end this once and for all.
7
Wonderful post! From your Dutch name, I am guessing that you remember all too well what carnage Putin is capable of. Americans don’t seem to remember that he shot down a civilian airliner (MH17) full of Dutch citizens. I will never forget. I lived in Amsterdam and I know people who lost friends on that flight.
3
A difficult situation indeed; although technically still a member of NATO, Turkey's increasingly authoritarian president has made clear in recent months that he is not at all committed to the alliance, not least with his unacceptable purchase of Russian missile hardware that is capable of gathering intelligence on the sensitive NATO technology Turkey also possesses. Erdogan is now reaping what he has sown with his confused attempt to manipulate his own allies by sidling up to Russia—which, it turns out, is not so interested in sidling up to him.
It's the same trap that foolish, autocratic egomaniacs (i.e. Trump) repeatedly fall into: fail to understand your strategic situation, overplay your hand, and end up leaving your country weaker and more isolated.
4
Turkey wanted NATO out of the way so they could attack the Kurds. They’re on their own.
5
"While there was no way to resolve the conflicting accounts, Russia is known to practice hybrid warfare, of which lies and deception are an integral part."
Lies and deception are an integral part of all warfare. Suggesting that only Russia lies and deceives in war and that we should therefore believe Turkey's version of events shows a disgraceful bias in reporting.
Erdogan has been supporting jihadists from the beginning of the conflict, trying to take advantage of the instability to overthrow a neighboring Shia government -- in concert with the Sunni Gulf States, and a U.S. that sees Syria as a problem for Israel. Like the U.S., he couldn't care less about suffering Syrians. He and the U.S. have been perpetuating a bloody and destructive conflict that would have been ended long ago if they would stop arming and supporting jihadists trying to set up their caliphate in Syria.
For years, Erdogan let Turkey be used as a land corridor by foreign jihadists traveling to Syria to join ISIS and its Syrian twin, Jabhat al-Nusra (now Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS). Now, his only concern is the fact that thousands of the jihadists and their families are fleeing towards Turkey, in a classic case of well-deserved "blowback."
Yes, Russia's trying to help Syria end the war; what sensible human being who actually cares about Syrian civilians would see that as somehow a negative?
4
Seems I recall reading that Turkey was allowing jihadist foreign fighters into Syria to help overthrow Syria’s Assad. Now since the regime change has backfired Turkey want to escalate the crisis into WW3? Have Turkey carve out a land zone on Turkey’s land for these jihadists linked to al Qaeda. And have other Western powers and Sunni nations that contributed to the Syrian regime change operation help maintain and fund the Syrian refugee plan. Have the US, Turkey, Israel and foreign fighters get out of Syria and let Syria rebuild their country.
5
Just as soon as you Russians stop providing Assad with weapons and gas to use against his own people.
Let's not forget Turkey, with the encouragement of Donald Trump, invaded Syria in an attempt to engage in an ethnic-cleansing campaign against the Kurds, the largest minority in Syria. NATO should tell them to withdraw rather than express "'solidarity.'" To do otherwise is to condone Turkey's criminal conduct that led to convictions in the World Court of former Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic for similar "crimes against humanity." It's time for moral leadership rather than succumbing to Turkey's threat to send refugees their incursion has created across western Europe.
2
Trump want to build a Trump Tower in Istanbul after his Presidency so he made a deal with Erdogan that he gets the deal if Turkey is allowed into northern Syria.
Trump is a deal maker who cares only about money. That's why Saudi Arabia, the source of two major terrorist attacks - the last only months ago in Florida, is allowed to have its citizens enter our country while many other countries are banned.
America is no longer the Super Power in this world. Make America Great Again according to Trump is to bring us back to the 1920s when the business of America was business. Remember how that turned out.
1
So NOW they need NATO? Next, Turkey will want a bailout from Libya after the Russia whip them there.
2
Nato, that is us, the United States back Mr Erdogan in his Syrian invasion? This the would be dictator who had his armed forces bracket shell our troops in northern Syria the day Mr Trump ordered the retreat? You already got your East Room press conference and lip service praise from the twitter the chief what more could you need?
Russia continues the proxy war with the US escalating the stakes as it asserts its power In the middle east and beyond. Putin has effectively removed the US from NATO and knows Trump, always adverse to direct conflict, will not support the other NATO members to help Turkey. Putin has Trump's number and is taking advantage of the weak president to further de-fang the US military.
Sly man, is Putin. He is using the slow boil on Trump who can't feel how warm the pot is getting.
2
Turkey sent its soldiers to invade Syria. They did this without consulting their NATO allies. They have not been attacked on their territory. This is their problem, not NATO's.
5
Who cares. Turkey has done next to nothing to earn entry into NATO other than possess some decent geography and provide the US with a few airstrips. Turkey is no ally.
3
But wait, I though Erdogan and Putin were allies..... maybe Erdogan has been played for a fool
1
"Mr. Erdogan arguing that Turkey needed to create a buffer zone and flush out Kurdish forces that it considers terrorists. But that mission threatens to embroil Turkey deeper in the Syrian conflict, placing it increasingly in direct confrontation with Russia"
No, actually that places Turkey in direct confrontation with the only people who today are protecting the Kurds -- the US, albeit now mostly CIA contractors and Israelis using non-Israeli passports.
Russia wants to end the separatism in Idlib. Turkey wants to prevent Kurdish separatism in Idlib.
The Turks are trying to do that on the cheap by pushing in non-Kurdish rebels. The Russians just want to end all rebels. So they differ on means. That is not the same as differing on ends.
The Turks also want to send back refugees who are afraid of Assad. The Russians don't want to leave a separatist zone into which to push them. However, nobody anywhere wants to create a place in such a zone in which place the returning refugees could live. Turkey imagines a dumping ground of hopeless camps, an outcome nobody else supports.
However, both the Turks and the Russians are completely heartless about such refugees. The Turks just want them gone from Turkey. The Russians just want them gone, period, the end of base camps in Turkey used by the CIA against Assad. They can find a mutually agreeable way to be rid of people; that isn't so hard when you are not handicapped by any concern for the people in question.
2
@Mark Thomason US is not protecting SDF(a.k.a. YPG). Recently US Military on the ground in North East Syria have already stated repeatedly to YPG that if there is any clash between YPG and Turkey, US will not intervene. US have also warned YPG not to get involved in Idlib on the side with Assad against Turkey.
As I recall, it was the Russian who intervened and saved Kurds from the Turkish onslaught while US packed up and left in a hurry.
But you are right about the refugees though ...
1
All this was being prevented by the 1000 or so American troops on the Turkish border. The ones Trump pulled out with a Tweet, forcing our troops to withdraw in such a hurried and chaotic fashion they had to bomb their own installations and equipment to keep them from enemy hands.
If this is the start of a broader conflict, it's at Donald Trump's feet.
2
@Revelwoodie No it wouldn't have, US are based in North East down nearer the Euphrates river. of Syria, away from Idlib. US is only a small player in Syria.
What would have stopped this offensive was if Turkey had abided by the terms of the sochi memorandum and disarmed Wahabi Jihadist Terror groups like Hayat Tahrir al-Sham(blacklisted as Terrorist group by US and EU) but instead Turkey have been funding and supporting myriads of Wahabi Jihadist groups like Ahrar al-Sham, Turkistan Islamic Party, Hurras al-Din, Faylag Al-Sham which all share the same idealogy as Al Qaeda.
Turky is providing them with ATGMs and MANPADs. Turkey sponsored National Liberation Front is made up of remnants of ISIS and Al-Nusra Front.
And Turkey was also to allow the reopening of the M5 Highway which it has failed to do as Turkey is supposed to be incharge of deconfliction in IDLIB according to the agreement signed in 2018.
2
Not sure how this is a NATO issue. Turkey was not attacked.
8
Erdogan now likes and needs NATO? This is a change in tune. Didn't he taunt NATO by purchasing anti-missile systems from Putin? Didn't he seek to exterminate the Kurds who fought as allies on the ground with US forces? Has Erdogan learned anything in his move toward repressive authoritarianism (like purging intellectuals and crushing a Free Press)?
3
Regarding the threat by Erdogan to flood the EU with millions of refugees if he doesn't get his way: I hope the EU responds in kind. Let him know that if he tries it, the EU will close the border (on the Greek side), help Greece to make sure it's truly closed tight, and stop any and all travel, commerce and currency flow between the EU and Turkey. Two can play this game, and Turkey's economy wouldn't last a month. Bullies like Erdogan or Putin only respect a show of strength. If the EU vacillates, he'll do it again and again. Unfortunately for the Europeans, the EU has been weak as water, so Erdogan will probably get his way.
3
Probably oversimplyfing a very complicated conflict, but Turkey belligerently invaded Syria, and some of its soldiers were killed. You don't get to wage aggressive war and drag several other nations into the conflict, including the USA, with a treaty as the only rationalization. As a NATO member Turkey needs to be held to a higher standard of behavior.
7
@Cousineddie NATO doesn't have to be involved because Turkey is the aggressor. The Article 5 only comes into play if Turkey had been attacked.
personally I hope both sides lose.
3
And at the same time, what the media doesnt tell you is That's Turkey is also cooperating with militia forces in Syria and Iraq Who are wearing the isis flag on their arms. Isis, Who everyone tried go defeat. The want to defeat Asssad.
I wonder how long Russia will stay in the nato as they are getting more and more extremist like.I don't Think they tell you about that in the States.
Russia has shown aggression against Sweden multiple times,but at least the arent as Turkey Who Switch sides and work with the enemy.
1
Before going to NATO, President Erdogan needs to answer a few simple questions.
1. What is wrong with Syrian military trying to take out those who are trying to break up Syria? Doesn't he believe that governments - no matter how undemocratic they may be - are responsible for preserving their territories' integrity?
2. Wouldn't he do exactly do the same thing, if separatist Kurds in Turkey try to break up part of Turkey and declare it their own state?
3. How would he react if Russian military moves into Turkey and start dictating what Turkish military can do and cannot do?
4. Intentionally or not, the Turkish military has been bombed inside Syria. Turkish military is on Syrian land, which allows Syria to consider its move into Syria an invasion. Then how NATO principle that "attack on one is attacking all" applies here? In other words, is NATO going to support its members militarily to invade other countries?
7
Erdogan has attempted to play both sides of the fence – NATO/Russia and is now obviously attempting to play the EU, threatening to unleash Syrian refugees upon Europe and Greece.
This is clever since many might hope that one day in the future a different Turkish leader might arise and lead Turkey in a more responsible manner, however before then, perhaps NATO would be better off with a Macedonia and without a Turkey that attempts to threaten Greece and Tunisia.
Turkey is overstepping the mark in calling a NATO emergency meeting over its military casualties in Syria. If the Cypriot government attempts to evict Turkish troops will NATO express similar solidarity? There are strong feelings amongst the Kurds in southeastern Turkey that the Turkish presence is an occupation, a hangover from the Ottoman era. Turkey is co-operating with Jabhat Fatah al-Sham in Syria, also known as al-Qaeda in the Levant, which should stir righteous indignation amongst Americans, New Yorkers in particular.
3
Let me get this straight: Syria is a sovereign country. [That's a statement of fact, having nothing to do with whether I or anyone else approves of the regime.] Outside "actors," including the U.S. CIA, Turkey, Israel, and others, have been engaging in overt and covert regime change operations for years.
This meddling has exacerbated the humanitarian crisis due to the civil and proxy wars. So in the middle of this mess, Syria allies with Russia whose forces are in the country "by invitation" of the regime. Everyone else, the U.S., Turkey, and other regional "actors" are inside the Syrian territory illegally, right?
Am I missing something?
7
@Luis Mendoza You missed the part where Turkey have been deliberately supporting other Al Qaeda affiliated Wahabi Jihadist groups like Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, Ahrar al-Sham, Hurras al-Din, Faylag Al-sham. The National Liberation Front that Turkey sponsored are actually remnants of ISIS and Jhabat Al-Nusra Front and they stillwear ISIS shoulder badge. And these are the very same Terror groups that Turkey was supposed to disarm under the Sochi Memorandum that it signed in 2018.
Why didn't Turkey use those nifty new S-400 anti-aircraft batteries against the Russian aircraft? Do they have some type of built in safety mechanism that won't allow you to use them against Russian jets?
2
@Matt's Revenge The Turks should have a good reason to suspect there is a kill switch built into the programming.
Dirty secret is that many times when a country buys missiles from another country they might be getting missiles that have reached their expiration date but aren't told that. The solid fuel might be becoming unstable, the electronics have to be replaced, etc. They have a couple of years lefts but after that, they're junk and only when they are used it becomes apparent.
Like it or not but the Russian military presence in Syria is legal under international law.
The Turkish presence isn't.
So maybe Turkey should just withdraw.
7
The government of Syria probably isn’t legal in Syria under international law. Everyone ready to test Article 5?
Typically I would say Turkey is not likely to get the "all for one" treatment that the US would get but given tRump's constant bashing of NATO I'm not sure. If we were engaged in a similar misadventure we might get a similar response.
2
@Joe NATO has no responsibility to assist Turkey. The Article 5, where countries are suppose to help, only comes into play if Turkey had been attached. Since they started it, they are on their own.
Erdogan’s aim is to blow up the southern Mediterranean and pull Greece into a war as justification for future invasions and occupation of Greece’s lands and islands. He has expansionist goals of a larger and greater Turkish empire in the region.
Europe needs to stay out of any way that Erdogan and Putin are involved in.
Turkey decided to engage in warfare in Syria and Libya and now is loosing and wants Europe to help him out. If that happens we are looking at WW3. Couple that with the Wuhan Coronavirus and we will have a pandemic along side bloodshed that will be responsible for millions of deaths.
This is outrageous and these wars need to stop now.
The world must work together and put an end to the reign of terror these strong men create.
23
“Not worth the bones of a single American Grenadier”. Let the Europeans have this “nugget” all to themselves.
16
The Kurdish ppk is a terrorist communist organization, just because it is fighting multiple other terrorists for domination does not legitimize them.
4
Why should The US AND NATO support the Turks. Kurds are the US’ best allies in the region. The Turks have a horrible history including the Armenian genocide.
Turkey is no match for Russia and they know it.
Expect them to come crawling, on hands and knees, begging the US for intervention.
14
@PC Turkey 🇹🇷 shot a Russian fighter plane two years ago and did not ask for any US help. Russia is militarily stronger than Turkey overall but still can’t sweep turkey away from Syria since it doesn’t have efficient land forces to balance Turkey in the region.
1
@PC
Turkish president Erdogan needs a lesson.
@PC, did you know that today, the modern notion of warfare is being phased out?
PC: I did not. Tell me more.
PC: yeah, countries are now filling planes with coronavirus people, establishing a sight-seeing itinerary, and claiming their tourists!
PC: very sneaky. Speaking of election interference, do we have any flights scheduled for Russia?
PC: only those going through Turkey.
PC: cool beans. Stay calm and carry on...
Impoverished mass refugee surges now makes nuclear MAD look obsolete and benign.
1
You break it, you own it. It's all yours, Turkey.
33
What the NATO European Union Hittite Ottoman Empire is going on here?
Alawite Shia Muslim Arab minority ruled Syria is as an effective highly motivated foe of the extremist terrorist Sunni Muslim Wahhabi Arab extremist terrorist likes of al Qaeda and ISIS as are Shia Muslim Persian majority Iran and Sunni Muslim Kurds.
4
Turkey that bought the Russian missile systems?
Turkey that slaughters the Kurds?
Turkey that is going back on it's word about the migrants?
Turkey that has invaded Syria and illegally occupies it's territory?
Turkey that grew it's economy on discounted oil stolen by ISIS? Oil that powered ISIS.
Oh that Turkey.
We are busy washing our hair. Ask your new BFF Putin.
Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.
65
@Lawrence
The time to deal with those issues is not now. We have treaty obligations this attack might have been deliberately meant to cause stress on.
3
@magicisnotreal
What obligations does NATO have? Turkey was not attacked, Turkish forces fighting in a foreign country (Syria) were attacked. Two totally different scenarios. I don't believe NATO needs to respond in this case.
28
@magicisnotreal
'We have treaty obligations'
Which? Article 5?
No sir, NATO will claim that this was not a NATO action, was done independently by one of their members and send troops to the Turkey border to make sure the Turks don't come running up to Europe when the Russians begin teaching Turkey what happens when you bite a bear.
2
Trump will do nothing.
2
@Brendan Varley
As he should. This is a Turkish issue. After the Turks bought Russian missiles and invaded Eastern Syria to push the Kurdish YPG away from the border, they don't have a lot of good will anymore.
@Brendan Varley and for once I will be in agreement with him.
1
@Brendan Varley
'Trump will do nothing.'
Ok.
So ... what do you want him to do? declare war on Russia over this mess Turkey made?
I assume you are rushing to enlist to go to the front yourself, but I am sure you are just going to watch people die on TV instead.
He should just say something dumb like all presidents do, and sit back and let it play out.
Turkey started this and they cannot then call on NATO top rescue them. They should not and hopefully don't.
NATO should send troops to the Turkey/rest of Europe border, make sure the Ottomans stay in their own country. Like a dumpster fire, let it burn, just don't let it spread.
Don’t want your troops killed in Syria; don’t send your troops to Syria.
Now, was that so difficult!
38
I am glad we pulled out of this mess. The Erdogan Putin bromance is coming along really well.
16
Lol who pulled out of Syria? We’re still there. Everyone is still in Syria for god’s sake, a press release doesn’t make it just happen.
1
Why didn't Turkey shoot down the attacking jets with its Russian S400 anti aircraft missiles it bought from Russia in Defiance of NATO
Turkey probably punched the fire button and the target acquisition screen lit up and said "Nyet Nyet...do can doski" comrad....
Turkey really didn't think this through did it?
Retired army strategic intelligence officer
22
@Michael
'Why didn't Turkey shoot down the attacking jets '
'Retired army strategic intelligence officer'
Oh brilliant advice.
Just brilliant. No wonder you are retired.
So Turkey shoots down Russian jets as per your advice.
And what do you think would happen next?
Here's a possible idea, Ankara would not be on the map about 12 hours later. In fact, the Russians would call a broken arrow and the entire front line would move miles into Turkey in hours.
And then we are in WWIII territory, as the Turks make a beeline for Europe, the Russians make one with their tanks, taking out Georgia in a few days.
The Armenians, still upset at Turkey for the genocide, would happily join Russia as they march through what used to be Turkey.
That's what will happen next, that is why every one is trying to play it cool, because every one knows what happens when you wrestle a bear. Hint - the bear wins, 100% of the time.
'shoot the planes', lol.
1
Back when concern was on Isis and many western Moslem youth heading to Iraq, Erdogan did not stop them from using Turkey as a land bridge from its airports. Then he stood by and refused to help Yazidis avoid slaughter. More recently he bamboozeled our very stable genius to withdraw our troops from the Syrian border so he could slaughter those who swept Isis out of northern Syria. Next on his agenda was drumming up a best friend for life with Putin. His old buddy turned on him, so now he wants the West to come to his aid against his two month BFF. Got it!
30
Turkey deserves all they get from Putin
22
I’m no fan if Erdogan, but Turkey has already taken in 3-4 million (!) refugees from Syria, which has had profound effects all over the country. Meanwhile the US is taking virtually 0 refugees from anywhere under Trump. I think Erdogan is allowing refugees to move into Greece because they literally cannot absorb more. The Turkish economy is not doing great. And adding another million refugees to the existing millions is very, very unpopular in the country.
18
Syria is a disaster because of Western policies. You reap what you sow
11
@Treetop -- The US has been using those Turkish refugee camps as base camps for the CIA operations based in Turkey, sending insurgents and weapons into Syria. That is for example how McCain was slipped into Syria by the CIA for his photo op.
"It is Turkey's problem" rather overlooks who was funding, organizing, and using those camps during the long insurgency against Assad. That was not Turkey. Turkey allowed it, like it allowed the use of Incirlik airbase to fly support for them into Syria.
Now abandoned to "It is your problem now" they are not taking that quietly. Nobody should be surprised, if actually admitting what was done.
2
@Treetop - "I’m no fan if Erdogan, but Turkey has already taken in 3-4 million (!) refugees from Syria, which has had profound effects all over the country."
Wouldn't that be a good reason for Turkey to help Syria ends its civil war as quickly as possible and become peaceful, so that the 3-4 million refugees can go back home? Or, is there a different calculation here?
4
So Syria and Russia can slaughter thousands of men, women and children, but 35 Turkish soldiers triggers a NATO response. And if NATO doesn’t respond as Turkey wishes, it will create an even greater refugee crisis. How did we get to this point.
28
Answer: Trump.
5
@Finklefaye
Sane minded people are gone,
Erdogan, Trump, Putin, Netanyahu, Duterte, Maduro type overblown buffoons , they do not have any interest for common good.
They ruined everything.
10
@Finklefaye
By coddling dictators. Trump had him in the white house and said more than once how he "ADMIRED" Erdogan.
Those Turkish soldiers were not IN Turkey when they were killed. They were in Syria because Erdogan endeavors to kill Kurds there.
9
NATO was essentially formed as a defensive alliance to combat potential Soviet aggression. I believe NATO members are not entitled to support for their individual aggressions. Since Turkey started the conflict it is totally up to Turkey to either see it through or withdraw from Syria. NATO should not be involved even if Russia takes the fight to Turkish soil since Turkey is clearly the aggressor. Let's all hope that Turkey sees the light and withdraws from Syria before Russia gets the idea that Turkey will be its next Crimea annexation. If NATO chooses to involve itself in defending any aggressive members than it will surely spell the end of NATO.
27
Turkey needs to get out of Syria now.
It intervened there as part of a US-led effort to exploit protests against the Assad regime to destabilize and/or overthrow that government. Those efforts have clearly failed, though at enormous cost to the Syrian people in the form of a protracted civil war fueled by foreign actors.
All that Turkey is doing now is propping up the reign of terror of Salafist militias in the province of Idlib, most significantly that of the dominant militia, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, an affiliate of Al Qaeda, and carrying out a program of ethnic cleansing of predominantly Kurdish areas along its border.
Idlib is Syrian territory. The Turkish troops there were supposed to be preventing the Salafist militias from carrying out attacks, but appear only to be enabling them. Turkish troops have no business there anymore and the Syrian government is well within its rights in attempting to push them out.
The US and NATO should not allow Turkey's ambitions in Syria to drag them further back in to a conflict with Syria.
The refugee problem created by the Syrian Civil War remains a very serious one. We should be careful, however, to not allow pro-war corporate media to use humanitarian concerns whip up support for another Western intervention on spurious grounds.
Many of the refugees are undoubtedly simply fleeing a zone of conflict. A large fraction however consist of the extended families of Salafist fighters who have terrorized the country.
15
Russia needs bases in Syria and unopposed passage through Turkish sea lanes and territories. It will stay out it. Too much risk for a third rate power to mange.
@Casual Observer
Russis, and EVERYONE ELSE has free passage through the straights to and from the black sea.
3
@Moehoward
Oh.
So which countries using the straights are in a shooting war with Turkey?
There are no good actors on Syria soil. It’s a civil war between a brutal dictator and radical Islamist. Both sides have malicious patrons on their side who are jockeying for influence (Iran, Russia and Turkey). The administration made the smart move in withdrawing our troops from Syria.
10
If you say so. But I’m not sure how giving Putin the upper hand of influence in the area can be a smart move.
2
@Robert -- "Both sides have malicious patrons on their side who are jockeying for influence (Iran, Russia and Turkey)."
You forgot to list the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and a few lesser Gulf funding sources, and the Libyan and Afghan jihadis co-opted with cash and weapons, and redirected into Syria.
The resentment of the EU ought to extend to the whole lot of them, not just to the enemy du jour of the American projects.
Did Turkey ask NATO before it went into Syria? Did Turkey ask NATO before it financed and armed terrorists in Idlib? Of course not. Turkey should pull out and the people of Idlib should surrender.
14
@CacaMera My God man, surrender? More likely be massacred, don't you understand that these thugs are showing no mercy! Thats precisely why Turkey has entered the fray and the EU and the rest of the civilized world have an obligation to assist.
So here is comes.. Trump side with Putin or Nato?
3
@gardener in the NATO has no role in this since Turkey started it. They can't come demanding help now.
Best thing to do is hope both sides lose.
Please don’t throw US taxpayers’ money into this mess. Not our problem to solve.
13
Turkey invaded Syria to fight the Kurds and to carve out a piece of it's war torn neighbour. Now the Syrians (with Russian help) shoot back. This is Turkeys problem, why are the NATO ambassadors even meet over this?
Even when the whole thing backfires and Syrian forces push into Turkey, it wouldn't be a case for article 5, since NATO is a defence pact and not a insurance for offensive wars gone wrong.
If Turkey doesn't want it's soldiers killed, they should keep them at home!
39
@Nicolas
The problem is millions of refugees Turkey already absorbed and another million camping along the Turkish border. Kurds and Turks would get along just fine.
If I were Turkey, I would make sure to transport the Syrian refugees to the warmer climates of Cyprus and the Greek islands. It is much easier to ship refugees to Greece and Cyprus to mess with Russia. Since NATO is so ineffective, hundreds of thousands of refugees can be transported from the Turkish border while NATO continues to talk.
1
This is like an episode of 'The Walking Dead'. Erdogan is weaponizing refugees. Should NATO refuse his entreaties for assistance, he will open the flood of a refugee horde of 'walkers', a la Alpha, in 'The Walking Dead'. So incredibly sad that all refugees are looked at is a bargaining chip and not as humans.
11
Well, the issue is whether Turkish soldiers are strong enough to back Erdogan's Manifest Destiny overtures. So far, the Turkish military has not impressed when fightiing ISIS, Kurds, Bengazi Libyans or the Syrian Army. And there has been some human rights violations against captured Kurds, demonstrating erosion of military discipline. Remember the Turkish Army was substantially purged a few years ago when Erdogan overpowered a rival political movement which had embraced the professional classes. Many of the best officers of the Turkish Army are now living outside Turkey, or inside in a jail. So Erdogan is learning, like Stalin after the Tuchachevsky Purge some 80 years ago, what it is like fighting tough aggressors but with an Army where political appointees have taken over, where military initiative has been replaced by political caution and focus on Byzantine personal relationships. Erdogan made his bed; let him lie in it. Or Erdogan could give the exiled or imprisoned officers back heir jobs.
20
@greg starr If he gives them back their jobs, they're going to take his.
4
The Russians with 1000s military personnel in Crimea because of their large military presence there didn't need to invade. Besides 67% of the populace are ethnic Russian. With another 25% Crimea Tartars. There were hardly any ethnic Ukrainians there. Russia could hardly be expected to turn their presence in Crimea over to right wing anti Russian Ukrainians after their illegal coup. Turkey has claimed killing scores of Syrians in previous encounters. Its time for Syria to regain control of their borders to end this nightmare proxy war.
8
Turkey invaded Syria to settle Turks in northern Syria, displacing Kurds who Trump abandoned. Article 4 is for defense when a member is attacked and has no bearing on a NATO country that invades another country to resettle their population.
7
If Turkey had not gone after the Kurds they would not have this problem. Meanwhile the Kurds were helping to defeat ISIS, were our allies whom we deserted.
20
Exactly. We thought Trump had deserted the just to serve them up to Erdogan after the Kurds pushed ISIS out of the region. But Russia is on a Crusade and will soon be at the gates of the Temple in Jerusalem. This is not a metaphor. The Soviet/Euro dynasty was unsustainable so they’re taking their expansion plan in a new direction.
Of course, there were Kurds before Islam, even before the Christ. They will be here when when the next Empire falls and the Empire after that. Why the Kurds even survived military assistance from the U.S. Russia is landing haymakers all over the Turkey/Syria border. They are not aiming for ISIS anymore.
As The Soviets march on to the Syrian border with Israel, Trump and Putin are locked in a Machiavellian embrace. And they can’t get out of it. The Kurds have a saying: No friend but the Mountains.
This is not an appropriate situation for NATO to intervene. While the actions of the Russia and the Syrian regime are awful, Turkey's intervention is purely aggressive and deserves no support.
12
It's time for NATO to turn fully away from this two-bit tyrant. You asked for him, you got him. Let him fend for himself.
12
Turkey has been committing genocide against the Kurds for 10 years and flipping the bird to the rest of NATO. Erdogan should be suspended from NATO and sanctioned. The Saudis should be subjected to an embargo while we're at it. They treat women like slaves, spread radical ideologies around the world, draw us into wars, and literally crucify people for speech.
19
@TomD
Turkey has been committing genocide against the Kurds for over 100 years, if I remember my history correctly.
Russia has managed to practically surrounded Turkey militarily
Crimea from the north
Russian base in Armenia from the east
Syria from the south
And to some extend Libya from the west
I believe Article 5 of NATO only requires members to aid each other when attacked, not for offensive military operations. I am not sure why Turkey is still in NATO anymore, given their autocratic government and often conflicting interests in the Middle East. I certainly do not think the other members should aid them in their invasion of Syria. Erdogan stuck his nose into the Syrian war to try to suppress the Kurds, and now he's been bloodied. I feel little sympathy for him.
His further attempt to blackmail Europe into helping him by threatening to release a new wave of refugees is despicable. Europe and NATO should strongly resist these mobster tactics.
20
@Landon
Turkey's NATO membership hearkens back to a Cold War era when we thought we needed missile bases close to Russia. Which were traded away during the Cuban missile crisis.
@Landon
"His further attempt to blackmail Europe into helping him by threatening to release a new wave of refugees is despicable. Europe and NATO should strongly resist these mobster tactics."
You suggest Turkey absorb all the refugees from Syria?Turkey had 3,000,000 Syrian refugees before it took military action into Syria and one reason for such action was to prevent more refugees coming into Turkey and settling those refugees in Turkey in Syria. Do you blame them?
1
Wow, I thought all these tough-guy rightwing nationalists were all great buddies and allies and together they would remake the world in their own images of rugged individuality and strong national identity and interest! It simply CAN'T be that nations must also look out for the greater good along with their own, can it??
Newsflash, authoritarian boys: we tried your way once about 70 years ago. Ask the Germans, the Italians, and the Japanese how it ended if you don't remember; I'll bet they do.
6
What do you suppose will happen to the thousands of ISIS fighter who are imprisoned in the midst of this humanitarian disaster; will they cross the border with Turkey when Erdogan retreats?
Turkey will not have the stomach to fight with battle hardened Syrian troops, the only thing that kept them at bay was American power and Kurdish fighters. This fiasco is 100 percent Trumps to own.
37
@Mathew D Goodrich
ISIL prisoners are still being held by the Kurds in the Eastern part of Syria, not in Idlib. This is pretty basic knowledge.
3
Is there any problem that isn’t 100 percent Trump’s fault?
5
@Mathew D Goodrich I think the ISIS prisoners are in Kurdish custody in the east.
2
"Russia controls the airspace in northwestern Syria"
We used to, with a small number of troops in outposts from which they could call in devastating air strikes while Kurdish forces patrolled the area and acted as our eyes and ears on the ground.
9
@Jack Toner
Not in Northwestern Syria, No. Americans controlled the airspace over Raqqa,Hasaka and part of Deir ezzoir Governorates all in North Central and North Eastern and part of Eastern Syria .At no point has the US ever had control over the airspace in northwestern Syria where Idlib, Aleppo and Latakia are located.That has been Russian airspace since 2015.
Turkey just agreed to BUY Russian military systems. They're not going to reach open hostilities in Syria.
7
@Moehoward Turkey is going to buy Russian military equipment to fight Syrian forces supported by Russia? What don't I understand here?
2
@Moehoward Well at this point they have nothing and look to be right where Putin intended for them to be.
Turkey should be prepared for endless war. There will never be peace in the middle east, never. Turkey is easily goaded into killing and the use of weapons is very profitable for those who run the US. I am sure Erdogan can work out a deal with Trump where he gets a cut of our defense industry profits for allowing his people to be killed. Erdogan has the power to subjugate his weakling people, but he cannot stop the wars that are coming. It's okay though, because he never really did worry about his people, just his own power and wealth. He'd make a great republican.
3
i am glad we got out of that messy situation. doesn't concern us anymore. trump made a right decision.
20
@Jack Agreed. Even Trump gets things right once in a while.
3
@Jack, You are mistaken. We are not "out of that mess" when our troops are there guarding an oil field. An oil field Trump has illegally claimed as "our's". Don't be so easily fooled by a man that tells lies daily.
9
@Jack The right decision is don't join the military. Your life is not a pawn being played by anyone IMO.
3
And where is the United States in all of this? Nowhere to be found, apparently. Historically, the US would have played a balancing and mediating role in this situation, but instead we could actually be stumbling blindly toward a major conflict involving a NATO ally. We should expect ever more of such stupidity given the three year assault against the state department, the intelligence community and the Pentagon. Not to mention our alliances. Yet another cost to a capricious, narrow-minded and self-serving presidency.
For the sake of the future of our country, President Trump must go. Blue no matter who.
21
You ask where is USA in this? On the sidelines, and I am so glad about where we are. This situation would not be any better with our involvement. Putin, Erdogan, Iran, Kurds, etc. are all already into this intractable mess.
12
@RSSF
The US is NOT on the side-lines because there are no side-lines to be on. A hands on policy, a hands off policy, they are both strategic decisions and either path will have consequences for the US. We are involved whether we like it or not. And the history of the US under Obama teaches that US engagement can be intelligent and effective.
As a matter of fact, it was the final reversal of Obama's Syria policy last year, with the US withdrawal, that precipitated the Turkish invasion of Syria in the first place. The result has been exposing superdooper cracks in the NATO alliance. And, more importantly, another round of violence against the civilian population.
9
@Fremont It is miraculous that this is one conflict that somehow both Obama and Trump have managed to keep us largely out of.
2
Hard to pick a favorite autocrat from the nefarious Putin, Assad, Erdogan triumvirate, but it would probably be good if Turkey could counterbalance Russia's ambitions in Syria. Especially since Trump has meekly retreated from the aforementioned autocrats. (Unlike real Republican leaders like Ronald Reagan, Trump is a coward when it comes to challenging tyrants). The most important consideration in any action is how to protect innocent civilians/children being killed/injured by the Russia/Syrian advance right now.
2
@Wesley Yes, I remember fondly how the great leader Reagan stood up to the tyrants menacing Grenada.
Turkey’s soldiers are being killed in Syria because they invaded Syria to destroy the Kurds. NATO’s role should not be to protect Turkey. It should be to get Turkey out of there.
91
@Doug Lowenthal
Indeed, and as a Turkish friend of mine told me recently Erdogan will get Turkey involved in a war in order to cement his grip on the nation, and it may lead eventually to possible civil war in Turkey, and to Erdogan's downfall.
7
@Doug Lowenthal
Are you really thinking this through? I have no doubt that inter-ethnic rivalry helps to drive Turkish policy, but to reduce Turkish policy to anti-Kurdish bigotry is far too simple minded.
When the US continued to abdicate its balancing role in Syria, it gave Syria and Russia carte blanche to roll up the rest of the region. From Assad and Putin's point of view the odds on that gamble look good- what do they have to lose by further destabilizing the region? From Turkey, the changing strategic situation had to look a whole lot different.
The Russians are on the move in the eastern Mediterranean, and would love to subjugate a NATO ally. The Turks have good reason for concern here. For example, once the US abandoned them, who did Syrian Kurds have left to turn to but the Russians?Don't you think that once they were their clients, the Russians would take the first opportunity to use them against the Turks within Turkey? If you're Turkey, that's got to be an uncomfortable development. And that's just one facet of the very complex tactical situation they face in Syria. Whether you agree that it serves their long run strategic interests, it makes perfect tactical sense for the Turks to seize the initiative and attempt to create a buffer zone across the border in Syria.
BTW- if the US doesn't resume a balancing role, look for our NATO ally the Turks to accommodate the Russians. Not good for US interests.
6
@Fremont - "Don't you think that once they were their clients, the Russians would take the first opportunity to use them against the Turks within Turkey?"
I have to ask: "are you really thinking this through?"
First, the relationship between Turkey and Russia has significantly improved, as Turks have become highly suspicious of the US role in the military coup in Turkey.
Second, the Kurds are present in Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Turkey. Any move by Russia to arm them and/or support them militarily - as US has done in the past - is a move against the integrity of all these countries. Russia does not want to turn these countries - with which it currently has friendly relations and needs them to lessen the impact of the US sanctions - into its enemies.
1
If Erdogan really thinks Russia is directly responsible for the killing of its soldiers, why hasn't he cancelled the billion-dollar purchase of the Russian SS400 ground-to-air systems? One major reason why pretty much all other NATO members were opposed to that is that such systems need to be tied into the friend-or-foe recognition setup that countries use to avoid shooting down their own aircraft.
Thus, Turkey may have given Russia already key Intel on recognizing and targeting NATO planes like the F-16 Turkey also uses.
Long in short: No way should we get involved. Stay out, watch from a distance!
21
If open war between Turkey & Russia breaks out, it would be a blessing from heaven. Both countries are controlled by Dictators,
In technical warfare Russia is way ahead of Turkey, but the Turkey soldier is far superior to the Russians & Syrians. The Russians know this & will do what ever they can to avoid a conflict with Turkey.
10
@Independent1776 I think it is more complex than that since Turkey is a NATO member. This could good really, really ugly and drag other NATO countries into it.
8
@Independent1776 Tell that to the Turkish and Russian mothers whose sons will die in your blessing from heaven. Although Turkey is justified in trying to secure its border, it should do its utmost to prevent a major military escalation with Russia.
10
@Steve
The Turkish border IS secure, only, that part of
"Turkey" is and has been populated by Kurds for thousands of years. SO, "securing the border" is a code for "de-Kurd-ifying" the Turkish borderlands.
5
"Turkey has twice staged incursions over the border, the latest in October after the United States pulled back from the region, with Mr. Erdogan arguing that Turkey needed to create a buffer zone and flush out Kurdish forces that it considers terrorists. "
Thank you mr. president for creating a vacuum that allowed this to happen.
As to erdogan, don't forget when he came here his goons attacked protesters and got away with it.
Now erdogan should ask his buddy trump for help.
29
If I understand the situation correctly this dispute involves two leaders, Putin and Erdogan, both leaders who: engage in hegemony; lie when it suits their purpose; inflicts pain and suffering on any people, including their own, to advance their interests. Two leaders who view agreements and treaties as flexible documents to be used or ignored, as necessary, to advance their interests. Two leaders of faux democracies that are butting heads in Syria, a country run by ruthless war criminal who was saved by Putin's intervention into the Syrian civil war.
In addition, the interested parties in this conflict include: Iran, a belligerent theocracy; the milquetoast leaders of Europe, and a Putin wannabe Trump. Adding to the volatility of this situation is Trump's worldview, a politicized US intelligence community and State Dept. Then add to the mix a Republican party that is busier than a cat in a litter box covering up corruption and lawlessness in the WH and one must ask — what can possibly go wrong for the US or the world?
46
@old soldier Well put!
1
The real enemy here is Russia. I'm not sure how trump and his supporters can discard such blatant and obvious aggression by them and their proxy ally Assad. Putin is not going to be content with just Crimea and Syria and appeasing him as trump has done will only embolden him further. NATO and the US must confront and contain Putin now or his aggression will continue to expand and threaten more innocent people. HRC was right to suggest that we enforce a no-fly zone in Syria and trump instead appeased his idol and pushed his cut-and-run agenda all over the world. Without US hegemony and alliances being actively used to contain Russian aggression, war will eventually come to us and it will be much harder to win if we delay now.
8
@NowCHare :"The real enemy here is Russia."
Russia has been an ally of Syria for years. They are in Syria legally. The US stirred the pot insofar as the civil war is concerned and now we're reaping the results.
"HRC was right to suggest that"
...we introduce a Reset Button to cement better relations with Russia. How'd all that work out?
Or we could have a permanent military presence in northern Syria. Would you encourage your children or grandchildren to join the military and "defend" Syria against Syria?
If you have children serving, props to you.
4
Russia is an ally if Syria since the 1960‘s nothing to contain more to consider how to stop this craziness without adding more trouble and innocent victims. Who delivered all the weapons to this part of the world?? None of the local parties would be able to maintain a war for so long without third parties involved.
4
@NowCHare
HRC.
She of the absurd reset button, selling Russia our uranium while husband Bill pocketed a $500K check personally handed to him by Vlad Putin, taking massive donations to the Clinton Slush Fund by Russian interests who never donate to anything, etc...
1
The Turkish troops were sent to Syria to assist the rebels who are trying to overthrow Assad. Turkey is therefore invading a sovereign country. The UN should demand that Turkey pull its military back inside their own country. Why should Syria agree to a no fly zone inside Syria when it has to defend itself against aggressors.
51
I agree to your demand: Turkey should pull back his troops. So should Russia, and Iran and Hizballah and all Shia militias, coming from over the region, they all should leave Syrian soil. Because if you don't understand: they all share a common goal: to keep Assad in power and to make sure that he can continue his campaign of slaughtering his own people and driving his own sunni majority population out of their homeland.
4
@JBonn Syria is a country deeply divided by civil war. Where have you been the past eight years? The government of Assad does not represent the people of Syria and is not in control of the country so Turkey is within its rights to set up a buffer zone although we should not have allowed them to do it in order to protect our allies, the Kurds. At this point, Syria is a failed state being held together by the cruel and malicious forces of Russia. You can say it isn't our fight but when refugees pour over the border into Europe and destabilize the entire region our decision to run away will come back to haunt us. Also, we have an interest in preventing Russia from controlling Syria and seeing that they are denied a military air base in the region. Russia is an expansionary power intent on fighting us in every way and we need to confront them now.
6
@Suat
Syria has a right to defend itself from the western & allies plan to overthrow Syria’s President. Russia and Iran are in Syria at the request of the Syrian government and against the aggression. Turkey, US and their allies are in Syria illegally and working against the Syrian people. It is past time to stop this madness.
3
The US foreign office has very cleverly convinced Turkey to be its newest proxy in renewing the US's failed offensive of six years ago to remove Assad from power. Even more cleverly, the US has orchestrated its most sophisticated move - - to pit a NATO member against Russia. Assad has to wrap this up quickly or this will escalate into a real war.
8
Given that Turkey is a NATO member, couldn’t open conflict with Russia draw the U.S. and other members into that conflict as well?
5
Not necessarily. NATO is a defensive alliance. It is less clear in this case where Turkey went on the offensive to create a “defensive” buffer zone within Syria and Russia is working within Syria on behalf of the Syrian Arab Republic. This would be an interesting debate if Turkey attempted to invoke Article Five.
8
Erdogan of Turkey and Putin of Russia are now colliding over Turkey...let them fight it out - the US should have no part in taking sides.
Turkey, once an ally of Russia now finds itself at odds over the 1 million plus Syrian refugees huddled along it's southern border.
Syria continues its' struggle against the rebels and won't stop the killing. Russia has been an ally of Syria and always will be...as is Iran.
It's a no win situation - the two autocrats need to figure out what to do on their own. They're big boys and understand the dynamics and the options - war isn't one of them.
Regardless, the US needs to extract itself from the killing fields of the Middle East as conflict between Muslim sects has been going on for centuries and will go on for centuries more.
The West will never understand the East....I'm not so sure we want to .
7
I’ve never been a fan of Erdogan but he’s been skilled at playing whatever hand he’s been dealt, or at times even stacking the deck. However, Putin plays the game of international brinksmanship better than any leader in recent memory, that’s not a compliment.
Erdogan fell into the trap Putin set, Putin bet that getting the US to withdraw from northwest Syria would force the Kurds into an alliance with Assad, who is a Russian pawn at this point, thus allowing the Syrian/Russian forces to operate in the northeast freely and control the airspace over northern Syria entirely.
Erdogan was blinded by his hatred of the Kurds and misplaced trust in his ‘special relationship’ with Putin. I’m afraid the World has once again been played by Putin and this time it’s the civilians in Syria who will pay the price. Syria is lost, Syria is a Russian satellite and an Iranian corridor. Now the world needs to come together and learn from all the lives sacrificed in Syria.
20
Turkey calling a NATO meeting is quite galling, considering how horrible a member they have been recently.
176
@spughie Yes, Turkey has been the redheaded stepchild of NATO for some time. But we KNEW that. Which is why those 1000 or so American troops on the Turkish border were so critical. This is the exact crisis that those troops were preventing. And Trump pulled them out with a Tweet.
We can all agree on our lack of sympathy for Erdogan in this situation. But the blame for this conflict ultimately lies with Donald Trump for his complete failure of American leadership here, making a catastrophic decision that lead to this predictable, and predicted, conflict.
Yes, Russia and Turkey are the bad guys in this situation. But if you have a lion in one room and a bear in the other, and you open the door between them, is it the bear's fault? The lion's fault? Or the fault of the man who opened that door?
If American leadership means anything, it must mean accepting our responsibility to prevent this kind of bloodshed when we have the power to do so. But in the age of Trump, there is no American leadership.
11
@Revelwoodie
The U.S. troops near the Turkish-Syrian border were not in or near Idlib. They are irrelevant to the current issue.
Tough guy Erdogan, when confronted by a tougher Putin, suddenly remembers old and discarded friends NATO and EU! They should let him twist in the wind.
157
@JB
And allow Russia to subjugate a NATO ally? Think people!
8
@JB
Erdogan is playing the game the best he can. There are no "discarded friends" in the game he plays, only alliances of convenience. Trump and Putin are no different. This is a dangerous game. The old bipolar Soviet-American world left much less room for it (not saying it was better in other ways).
1
Lets see. Turkey, for its own anti-Kurdish motives, invaded its neighbor and has seized territory. Syria is moving to oust them and Turkey is complaining. It almost sounds like professional wrestlers where one has departed from the script. Did Erdogan really believe that Syria would acquiesce in having the Turkish military and their jihadist allies remains unmolested on their territory?
If Turkey wants NATO support, it can start by turning over their Russian anti-missile batteries for inspection by the West. Next, they can withdraw to their own territory before Syria/Russia humiliate them by kicking them out and perhaps moving on Alexandretta (Syrian territory until Ataturk seized it for Turkey but still contested). The West’s support should be limited to financial assistance to Turkey to provide for the refugees - no more.
85
@Charlie in NY it is actually worse than that. Idlib is in the north west vs the Turkish occupied strip in the north east. Idlib was a major transit point for jihadis inflows from Europe via Turkey to Syria. Turkish intelligence, with some evidence of support from European govt and agencies seeing this as a win win fed the pipeline till the objectives stalled or failed. As Assad's regained territor, the jihadis were given the option of being bussed to idlib or fighting to the end. The place is run by AlQaeda affiliates and ISIS, though we hear the moderate rebel euphemism often. We often hear of shia suni hegemonic ambitions, but Erdogan himself appears to have developed ambitions for a new ottoman empire, going as far as to claim being host in his idlib occupation. He has managed to antagonize every single neighbor as he trys to expand both influence and territory, but doesnt realize he is in over his head.
17
@Charlie in NY
Does anyone seriously believe that in the kleptocracy that is modern Turkey, secrets of NATO and Russian weapon systems have not already been pedaled?
this movie line perfectly describes Turkey.
Strasser: I'm not entirely sure which side you're on.
Renault: I have no conviction, if that's what you mean. I blow with the wind, and the prevailing wind happens to be from Vichy. Casablanca
1
@OB
Thank you for your comments, which I could have included in my nearby post. Turkey allowed ISIS to grow.
@Charlie in NY
Yes, this is a different part of Syria. The anti-Kurdish invasion of Syrian border land is far from Idlib.
I wonder if the missile defense system the Turkish Dictator bought from the Russian Dictator - while forfeiting US war plans in the process - will really stop the Russian Dictator’s missiles?
It’s just a reminder that no matter how weak US world leadership is, Russia and China are no alternative.
22
Other than attacking the Kurds, what was Turkey's goals in Syria to begin with? Did they think they could just move in and take over a portion of Syria without Assad and Putin objecting? They put themselves in this position, they will need to get themselves out- without assistance from NATO.
128
@American Independent
Let's see: The U.S. removed the government of Iraq and later supported rebels against Syria. The results were ISIS and the millions of Syrian refugees from ISIS and Assad, who fled to Turkey and Lebanon. The U.S. provided no support for these refugees, who tried to escape to Europe, which was the least oppressive place they could reach. Lebanon, already overloaded with Palestinian refugees (I'm using the word loosely, for convenience), is supporting Syrians the best it can. Turkey, not the richest country on earth, with 3.5 million Syrian refugees that it prevents from fleeing to Europe, is afraid of another million pouring in from Syria and wants to control the border from both sides to prevent that. Who is most to blame? I suggest remembering who mostly started the mess. I don't suggest letting anyone else off the hook, though. There are plenty of blameworthy participants but Turkey's difficult position is not hard to understand.
I'm not a fan of Turkey's government or policies, simply pointing out that they have some reasons to be aggressive on their own border. At the same time, I think they are causing more trouble, especially by Erdogan's politically intended aggression against domestic and Syrian Kurds that has caused some of that trouble.
9
Isn’t Turkey a NATO member? If their troops are attacked by Russians, isn’t the US obligated to help defend Turkey? Or will Trump pull out of NATO.
I’m sure this won’t help Trump understand that long term implications of his “Hunger Games” style of nationalism.
3
Nato is for defense and not to occupy parts of another country. Turkey entered Syrian territory on their own not asking Nato if they will support this plan.
156
Turkish troops in Syria are invaders. No one has invaded Turkey, the country, to justify NATO involvement.
56
@JBonn , I don't remember Afghanistan or Pakistan invading the US, but NATO was there including Turkey to help the US. Imagine 4 million Syrian refugees are already in the US and another million of them are about to cross the border. The US military would nuke the place down to create a buffer zone to replace refugees. No other country in the world had to deal with this scale of refugee crisis. I can't believe I am forced to defend a dictator.
3
Message to President Trump:
Don’t just do something, stand there!
We have no strategic interests in that part of Syria. Let Turkey and Russia sort it out between themselves.
39
@John
Of course the US has strategic interests in Syria. Above all, Turkey is a NATO ally. If Russia succeeds in defeatingTurkey in Syria and NATO simply stands by, do you think they will stop there? What about black-mailing Turkey with the threat to foment Kurdish guerrilla war within her borders? Don't you think Russia will be encouraged to undermine NATO in Poland, Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania? Will they become more adventurous in the Ukraine? Amplify energy politics in Western Europe? And in that case, why should our (former?) allies look to us for support rather than accommodating Russia?
What about Israel? Faced with an existential threat for her entire history, don't you think they will begin to think through their relation with Russia, which is becoming the dominant power in the region?
It is President Putin's aim, stated repeatedly and clearly to undermine the United States. If you don't think that will impact your well being, you're naive. For that reason alone, the US must be engaged in the region.
5
@Fremont
All Turkey has to do is withdraw its troops from Syria and they'll be safe.
Russia is not becoming the dominant power in the Middle East by any measure. It has an arrangement only with Syria which really is the ally nobody else wanted.
And Russia has been fomenting issues with Eastern Europe for years. Why do you think they they are the staunchest NATO and US supporters?
2