I think perhaps we are not quite understanding the root of the problem. We all have physical urges and as we grow and mature we hopefully learn to master our physical urges especially as they may impact another person. Anger is fine, but when we allow our anger to rule us and cause harm to another person, our anger has crossed the line and has become inappropriate and just simply wrong.
We do young men a disservice when we sent an ambiguous message to them. Sexual feelings are fine and, like anger, they can seem overwhelming; however they are your feelings and no one else’s. No one else is responsible for your sexual urges or feelings. Maturity means learning how to manage your sexual feelings and urges, to accept them but not let them dictate your actions and behaviour.
It is about time that we as a society and a culture move away from being ruled by our sexual urges and feelings. Yay #Metoo for moving all of us upward!
2
What this piece seems to be missing, as well as the young adults in it, is that research has indicated, on average, women/girls use more nonverbal communication signals and also accurately interpret nonverbal communication from others more accurately than most men/boys (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/he-speaks-she-speaks/201801/the-nonverbal-communication-gender-gap).
Women and girls may expect men/boys to be able to interpret and use nonverbal communication as well as they do. Men and boys may be unaware of the sociological deficit in their own ability to effectively project and accurately interpret nonverbal communication (particularly in relation to the other gender).
8
Men are complaining that they have to modify their behavior to avoid upsetting women, and feel that their voices aren’t being heard? Do you understand that this is how women have felt all along?
8
That’s exactly what these well-meaning young men are trying to understand. Not all young men are well-meaning, and many have a long way to go. But reveling in their confusion and helplessness helps no one - as justified as the centuries of accumulated rage in women is, and as far as men must go, for a very long time, to change the culture. It’s isn’t masculinity that’s inherently toxic - it’s power. And women are as capable of being poisoned by it as men.
9
@Jen Actually, I am willing to bet that the "men" referenced in this article DO understand the #MeToo issues a lot better than older men, simply because they are products of and growing up in a more "woke" culture. Also, their mothers are more likely to be enlightened and have passed this on to her sons. It is unfair if these guys are being harangued in the name of #MeTOO when they are not of that culture.
2
@Jen No, I don't, but I do understand that in the Jim Crow South, white people used the legal system to force black people to modify THEIR behavior to the expectations of white people, and that feminism is to men exactly what white supremacism was (and still is) to people of color. Many of the LYNCHINGS happened because black men were accused of hitting on white women, and modern feminism is trying to bring that back.
3
I was very confused by this article and it is no wonder the boys and young men are confused. What has the #MeToo Movement got to do with teenagers learning about the necessity and nature of consent in their romantic and sexual encounters with each other. #MeToo, primarily concerns sexual harassment and abuse of men OR women in the workplace by men OR woman in positions of authority or trust. If the discussion is dating and girls are "talking a lot about how guys abuse their power," I can see how boys would be confused. As the mother of two men in their mid twenties, and having once been a teenage girl myself, it is my experience that from ages 13 to at least 18, girls have more of the "power." And, I have seen some very abusive behavior by girls against boys that age. There is a double standard, and the boys should be allowed to express themselves on the issue.
IMO, discussions regarding consent and respect for boundaries and feelings of others in dating are not benefitted by being mingled with the issues raised by #MeToo.
12
The pendulum continues to swing wildly without concern for who it hits.
13
This is baffling. The young women want to talk about their feelings and their needs, but when they young men want to talk about how to take into account the women's actions, feelings and needs, they meet a brick wall.
What is that all about? It is though young women and men are not being taught how to communicate honestly and effectively about their interests and needs.
Or at least, the young women expect to be listened to, but don't want to listen in turn. How unreal and truly unfortunate, because open and mutual communication and cooperation is essential in any kind of dating or sexual relationship.
20
Not sure why #MeToo is being conflated with high school dating.
The movement was initially a backlash against sexual harassment, assault and rape. Such acts are rare in high school, though not unheard of. More often than not, young men make awkward, mistimed or overly aggressive advances out of ignorance, not malice.
They don't intend to hurt women, they just want to express clear sexual interest. Otherwise, they end up in the proverbial friend zone, a place where many well-meaning young men languish. They reason it's better to not take a chance than risk getting into trouble. This causes a different sort of suffering, rarely acknowledged in this "conversation".
The NYT should be careful about introducing #MeToo into any discussion that isn't about harassment or assault. Otherwise, young men end up walking on eggshells.
As long as men are still expected to be the sexual initiators, they must be allowed reasonable room to make mistakes.
And please, don't use an extreme anecdote, what-if or unusual circumstance to discourage what should be an occasionally messy, but extremely important learning experience.
17
Sounds like you’re just making broad generalizations about men with no real facts behind them
4
@Fred
Sexual assaults, sexual harassment and rape happen in High Schools. The young women of High schools are not there for the young men of High Schools to experiment with their sexual advances.
Expressing clear sexuality interest and overly aggressive advances is harassment and sexual assault. Why would we want to encourage young men to break the law?
2
Women need to admit to themselves that respect is a two way street. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. A good friend of mine always says men should always open the door for a lady , but if we are equal , shouldn’t she open the door for men too? Shouldn’t the person closes to the door extend the gesture?
Women need to understand it’s not always about them . Unwanted advances is wrong period. But women need to understand it goes both ways. So stop making it hard!
14
@Joseph Most women just...hold the door for whoever is behind them, regardless of gender. Maybe it's different in Texas? But I've never personally heard a woman argue that there should be any double standards like the ones you suggest are prevalent.
2
Most of the parents of adolescent boys and young men I know warn them to avoid any situation with girls and alcohol. One misunderstanding could ruin their entire future. Women are held to no account what so ever when it comes to intoxication. It is 100% the males responsibility for what happens in any situation where booze are present.
26
If a young man asks a young woman out on a date and she is attracted to him, everything is good. If she is not, then he is a creep. The men I talk to have also begun to pull back on their interactions with women they work with due to the unknown risk.
20
The reason girls are "allowed to 'touch and kiss us without asking,'" is that girls are (generally) non-threatening to boys. That is to say that boys are (generally) not afraid of girls being violent towards boys or forcing themselves upon boys sexually. And that's entirely logical when you consider that boys are way more likely to do that sort of thing.
Of course it's best for everyone to be very clear about consent when engaging in sexual activity. But, then there are the platonic gestures of friendly affection like giving someone a hug or a pat on the back. It seems somewhat ridiculous to require an adolescent girl to ask permission to hug a friend. But I guess we ought to require it if that's what we require adolescent boys to do. It'll start to seem normal after a while.
4
@Joe
it's ridiculous to require *anyone* to ask permission to hug a friend.
no matter what age or gender you are, if a friendly hug is threatening to you, you need to get your face out of your device a little more.
a lot of loneliness is in store for the generation (or anyone) that would prefer to text than talk, even when the other person is in the same room.
in such a reality it is no surprise that people today need to remind themselves that a touch they didn't specifically approve beforehand and assault are not the same thing.
oh no, someone you're not totally into just touched you somehow (I'm not talking about someone actually forcing themselves on you). are you going to break? do you need to find a safe space and an adult coloring book?
relax, you didn't just have a #MeToo moment. you didn't get assaulted, and you are not a "survivor". (and you don't need a coloring book.)
actual assault IS a real danger. but when the only thing people touch is their phone and only interact with others through a screen, they forget how to tell the difference.
8
Are you kidding with this article? Keeping your hands raised at work, particularly at a fast-paced Starbucks? This is an insane overreaction. I absolutely acknowledge that it's a difficult and tricky time for boys and men, particularly since many must feel unfairly blamed for the behavior of their counterparts. However, this is as insane as the letter written by French women, including Catherine Deneuve that argued that the "rules of sexual freedom" are being subverted by #MeToo. Give me a break. The entire movement is based around the idea that maybe men and boys can stand to think more critically about their behavior and to call out the men and boys around them who are not doing so. That a person would keep their hands in the air during a busy work shift or a crowded party because their hands might accidentally, what, grope a colleague? Funny, I've managed to work busy serving shifts hundreds of times without ever groping my male colleagues.
12
@Abby It’s female privilege to never have to worry about being accused of assault by men. I dont blame men whatsoever for extreme acts in order to prevent being falsely accused of wrongdoing in our current environment. It’s not your place to tell a man that he shouldn’t be scared or take preventive measures, especially since you have basically zero chance of ever being falsely accused of sexual impropriety.
13
Oh, thank God I am old and don't have to go through this anymore. Now, if I can just get these younger people to stop calling me "dear" and "young lady," I'll be totally good.
5
This reminds me of stories of marital arguments where the woman (in the stereotypes, it's the woman) won't tell the man what is upsetting her because he's supposed to know. Ridiculous. Boys need a safe place to ask and girls need to find a way to discuss these issues.
14
You finally got to where I hoped you would get to be, New York Times.
These boys are trying, but asking for help with the questions and concerns on their minds. Instead of giving it to them, they are told: “Shut up and listen,” as if one-way information flow will work sufficiently in this area. Or as mentioned in this article, they are told they should just know. But what if they don’t, and have no where to turn?
How about with the exception of the egregious and awful cases where the perpetrators get the scorn and punishment they deserve, we shift the climate, turn down the automatic heat, listen in both directions, and answer these boys questions, including in the grayer areas. And if it’s a new one for which an answer isn’t so clear, a better climate will facilitate working out the answers.
This social change we are going through is necessary and overdue. Where there are easy answers, so much the better. But not all of them are.
Reiterating the good news again, these boys get the main message. That is progress.
5
Gee willikers. I guess men should start addressing these questions then! Maybe read a book
Ps start with menstruation. It affect us all
4
As usual, in women's efforts to save themselves from men's harmful actions, men come out as the victims because in our culture their sense of manhood is dependent upon aggressive towards women behavior.
If parents and schools can't teach boys to define their manhood in different terms what hope is there for us girls and women?
I write this because I saw an example of this tragedy. At a bus stop near a high school, I saw a group of boys surround a girl. When they started touching her arms and grabbing at her books, I told them to stop at my own peril. I called it out to a 40+ woman in a community college sweat shirt walking by She laughed and said to the effect for boys it was part of their growing up process as men.
Also girls and women can get as much trouble for even very true accusations of assaults than men can get in trouble for the assaults themselves. A MeToo girl who speaks up about an intentional assault can be at risk for ostracism, cyber bulling, revenge porn. That can lead us to question how many female false reports of assaults there really are.
7
this is absolutely a hard time for guys to recalibrate, but it doesn't feel any harder than the trap that young women feel in hetero relationships (ex. be sexually active like guys seem to want but risk your reputation, navigating the madonna-whore dichotomy). it feels like part of becoming an adult is learning to deal with the fact that all women or all men won't have the same sexual preferences, so listening and asking questions of your partner is just a skill to work on. could the fact that young men are more uncomfortable just be a sign of equity in the struggle of young adulthood?
5
Men fit into the metoo movement however the metoo crowd tells them they fit in. According to metoo women, men have no right to voice any opinions or dissent on what the metoo crowd puts forth as gospel.
Gosh, I can just imagine the eggshells most American men feel the need to walk on now, especially if they are unfortunate enough to live in a very liberal/ultra-PC city or town.
9
I have taught my sons to ask questions, lots of questions, and to ask permission, and to understand that not everyone will have all of the answers they want. Why should the girls be required to answer questions for their entire gender? My sons understand that if someone complains about them asking permission to hold a hand or anything else, then maybe they would do better to find someone else. Or they can practice their basic communication skills! Seems as though many of the people interviewed for this article are lacking in that department. Hopefully they will learn as they grow.
The 25 year-old at Duke, essentially trying to explain to his female friends why their complaint about another male student was not valid, was a good statement for the author to dive into, but that was disappointingly not done. Good on those women for speaking up.
These young men need to understand it is possible to be respectful and masculine at the same time.
7
The main thrust of the MeToo movement- “Believe Women” is flawed are its core and is reflected in the treatment some of these young men have received. In this movement, men are always the aggressors and it is sexist to assert otherwise. In other words, men are the problem and are the only ones who need to change. This approach is unacceptable, sexist, and will lead to nothing but a forceful- and justified- pushback on the MeToo movement as a movement that has seriously overreached.
Men and women both share responsibility to resolve questions around changing gender norms. It takes two to tango. If girls and women relinquish any responsibility to answer genuine questions from men or to have their views challenged respectfully, then they relinquish their right to be taken seriously in the first place.
27
I think as a society we are experiencing a huge shift in how we see our sexuality in terms of behaviour and expectations. What seems to be missing from the boys’ questions is “I.” How do you feel when a girl or women touches you without permission? How do you feel when a girl or women hits you? However I do think boys and men need to learn to listen more and better. In the old days, when society tried to tackle domestic abuse, some men would loudly proclaimed that men were abused as well and shelters should be built for them too. That was in the 1990s, domestic abuse is still a problem; so, it would be naive of girls and women to think things will get better without some tough pushback.
3
My son happened to mention the other day how aggressive (with hands/arms) the girls are at coed basketball in gym class. He said he didn't feel comfortable acting in a similar way. I told him just to use his best judgment---thinking he was probably overreacting, though maybe not.
15
@SarahK
I sure some of the girls were aggressive, while others felt uncomfortable and were not, and some of the boys were aggressive while others, like your son, felt uncomfortable and acted accordingly. They’re all individuals and so no that’s not overreacting that’s him staying true to himself just like the athletic girls were staying true to themselves.
2
Women get to have it both ways.
5
@Anon You're "sure?" How are you sure? Were you there?
3
It is confusing for boys and men.
If you find a person enjoyable to spend time with, and are attracted to them, what does a boy or man do? If one attempts to flirt and are re-buffed, then you are impinging on the woman's right to be left alone, and are cast as too"Flirtatious and romantically direct." Cast onto the slag heap of "Guilty until proven innocent." Or,"That guy's gross, he tried to flirt with me."
But if the mans flirtation is received with interest, then that boy or man is a good man for having made his interest known.
The issue is, for the most part, men don't know which we are facing. And when we ask, we are shut down. Some how we should just know. So, many guys just give up.
I hear conversations these days from men that have given up. Recently I was sitting next to two men that were entertainment lawyers. Both spoke of how they had worked very hard to get to where they were, both socially and financially.
I heard them sharing stories about their offices and dating. Both won't take a meeting with a woman without a third party, or on video. And neither will even consider a date anymore. As one said," I have worked so hard since I was in high school to get to where I am. I have sacrificed and my parents sacrificed. I can't risk someone, that I decide not to pursue a relationship with, making up stories to harm me." So he doesn't date. He said it was safer, and cheaper, to hire a woman. Wow! Is this really where were at?
There has to be a better way forward.
32
@JH You know, there are gradations of flirting. The guys who are labeled as creeps are the ones who go from platonic to sexual with no stops in between, or ask someone out based on their appearance before they've taken even a few minutes to get to know them and establish a mutual connection.
If someone who's made it through law school can't figure out how to gently test the waters with some casual, non-sexual banter...that's just laziness and entitlement.
4
"Why are girls allowed to touch and kiss us without asking?"
The answer to this question is easy. They aren't.
Consent doesn't work as a one way street defined by gender. If we want to see real change, we need everyone to consider conversations about boundaries, preferences, and consent as their responsibility.
65
@JLMS
Agree. These are easy questions.
No hitting.
Consent for contact.
Either gender.
6
@JLMS Except that they are allowed. Not the same as should be allowed.
11
You couldn’t find anyone who wasn’t feeling threatened by the changes or was successfully navigating this space? Looking around there are plenty of partnered young people and people of all ages with friends of both sexes. My children, both son and daughters, and their cohort actually seem more likely to have groups of friends that include men and women than was common when I was younger and they seem much more adept at navigating ambiguity then we were. Perhaps if boys are seeking answers, the onus shouldn’t fall solely on the girls who are also navigating these changes while trying to remain safe themselves.
28
@Anon The lack of anyone who felt comfortable with navigating this conversation seems imminently plausible, given how insecure teens are in general, notwithstanding the high stakes and sensitive nature of the topic at hand. And as the article noted, the issue is not having friends of the opposite sex - many of the young men in the article had female friends.
My reading of the article indicated that boys and young men don't want the onus on women to educate them; they want to have a safe conversation about what girls and young women find to be acceptable behavior. The current culture undervalues the nuance in these conversations, leading to conversations teenagers feel ill-equipped to handle. Certainly, some young men may not value these conversations, but this article illustrates the challenges for those making a good faith effort to protect their peers and to improve the culture.
29
@Colin
I have children of both sexes with lots of friends of both sexes and think many kids are actually pretty good at sorting the this even though it can be awkward. Better than my generation in many important ways. The GLBT kids seems especially adept and honest. One problem is that individuals have varying ideas about what they personally find acceptable behavior and that’s where honest, nuanced conversation needs to occur. One girl cannot speak for all girls, only herself and so expecting your female friends to answer your general questions or defend or refute some position for all girls just doesn’t work. Conversely, one boy or man cannot speak for all men since they too have individual needs, desires and comfort levels and need to honestly express those. It’s one reason why young people are being taught explicit consent, don’t assume, don’t fall back on stereotype, ask.
8
We need to accept that some "bad" behavior exists in gray areas in which what is "bad" and what is "good" is not well understood in the moment. Until we can change some of these stereotyped expectations for male and female behavior, these types of situations will keep happening. I feel sad that some of these boys are so afraid of the consequences of their actions that they feel that they have to close themselves off to potential intimacy, but of course it would be even more sad if failing to do so resulted in harm to a girl. I went through the same thing myself when I was their age, and did not start pursuing romance until I was an adult (and even then, I still made some mistakes - in no small part due to inexperience with how to interact with women). Maybe it is the right thing to do this in adolescence, when it's so much harder and more confusing to deal with your emotions. Or maybe it just delays the problem. Another gray area, I suppose.
7