Get over it! The seats are meant to recline for a reason, so live with it. Be sensible and tolerant of all of those around you! That means reclining is an option that must be tolerated. Maybe the airlines could stop reducing the space between seats too!!!!
12
Since reclining is not forbidden but harassment and physical threatening are, the “puncher” should have been reprimanded not rewarded and the flight attendant should be dismissed.
14
There is a very simple, very American solution to this problem:
SHOW ME THE MONEY.
We can all agree that the price of the ticket includes the feature of reclining (because otherwise, the airlines would have disabled this feature a long time ago).
If someone does not wish to have the passenger in front of them to recline, they can simply offer some money to the passenger in front of them not to recline for the duration of the flight. The recipient of the offer can then make an assessment as to whether the offer amount is sufficient to offset the incremental comfort that they may derive from the reclining feature. If the offer amount is too low, the front passenger can counter with a higher offer or simply decline the offer (and subsequently proceed to recline the seat).
This is such a simple, elegant, and all-American solution that I do not understand why people who complain about the reclining feature are not stepping up to accept this solution to address their complaints. Could it have something to do with a sense of crony capitalist entitlement they may possess (eg. privatize all gains and socialize all risks/costs)?
I want all of us to remember this: THE AIRLINES PRICE THE RECLINING FEATURE INTO THE COST OF THE TICKETS. Full stop. No two ways about it. No ambiguity. It's black and white. Please accept this reality.
11
I can’t imagine sitting in a seat with an adult person pounding on the back of it the entire flight. American should hang their heads in shame over allowing that to happen.
If I pay for a seat that reclines I expect to recline. Slightly reclining the seat is more comfortable for me. I do put the seat upright for meals and let the person behind me know that if they need to get out to just let me know. And if I get up to move around, I put the seat upright. Common courtesy seems to be in short supply these days.
13
I do not fly that much. Only once or twice a year. I always recline. I am a physical therapist and recommend a reclined position for any of my patients with back problems, in ANY kind of seat.
If I recline and the person behind me does not recline, they are closer to my seat. If they recline, they regain that space. So, if everyone reclined, it would improve the situation for most people. Yes, those that are really tall still have a disadvantage, as do those in the last row. But that is the airline's design problem. So, as a medical professional, I say, recline!
23
I watched this video, and this is a clear example of misogyny and societal acceptance of aggression towards women.
The man pushing on that seat should have been thrown off the plane, not rewarded with a drink. He is a coward.
The behavior of the airline in this situation is abhorrent.
And yes, I'm a male.
276
I wonder though if he could be on the autism soectrum. It kinda looks like he's having a meltdown. Adulthood does not cure autism spectrum issues.
1
@T American Airlines, you have some explaining to do.
4
Ug. Terrible hot take. Guys like you think you'll make a female friend by injecting feminism into any situation, even those that don't apply.
2
Recline or Not ? That’s for others to decide, and perhaps negotiate. What REALLY disturbs me about this Incident : Does anyone believe that this man would have punched/shoved the seat in front of him, had the occupant been Male ??? Go ahead, raise your hand. I’ll answer, absolutely NOT.
Try that with Me, buddy. I’m 5’ 9”, and 170 pounds. NOT a weak, simpering, obedient “little woman “, obviously your type.
FOOL.
122
I utterly agree. I am a man and I know he only did it because she was a woman he thought he could intimidate. Disgusting misogynistic punk. Needs to get his lights put out. That flight attendant needs to be fired, and the woman should definitely sue.
4
People who put their seat back into the space that others have paid for are inconsiderate boors. I am 6ft 4in and fight this all the time. My knees are on the back of the seat in front of me before the seat is inclined and yes I have a bad back that airline seats make all flights an agony unless I pay for the extra room or get the exit isle.
A travel trick is for my wife to reserve the seat ahead of me so that it will not be reclined. She is not as tall as me & suffers it less from it.
3
It’s really quite simple—if it’s a daytime economy flight, don’t recline. If you still want/need to, simply ask.
Don’t assert or argue it’s your right cause the airline makes seats that are capable of it. Does anybody seriously believe anything airlines do/create is because they’re looking out for us?
How about we succeed where they fail, and just be respectful to one another.
10
The reclining seat challenge is not the real issue. Why do consumers put up with the disappearing seat space on airlines?
It's time to start addressing the problem and not just the symptom. Perhaps a national travel boycott might get the attention of the airline industry.
17
“We encourage our customers to be respectful of each other,” said Ross Feinstein, an airline spokesman.
That has to start with the airlines being respectful of their customers, which they are not in the current environment of most airliners and the false economics that customers have to buy into if they want a modicum of basic comfort in what is already a difficult situation. We recently avoided a five hour flight from LA to Hawaii by taking a five day cruise to the place, and five days back. Would do it again.
14
An 80 minute flight, at issue here, could be replaced with a high speed rail line. We went from Hong King to Beijing, a substantial distance across the planet, in 9 hours. High speed trains in France get you across the country in a few hours. The seats are as big as business class with ample leg room, and you can up and wander off tp the bistro car for an espresso or glass of wine. What's not to love? Plus trains are far better than planes on climate impact. Time to build high speed rail lines!
25
The seats should not be adjustable in coach since there is no room for it. Stop pitting passengers against each other. I routinely ask the person in front of me to not recline - I’m 6’4 - but I shouldn’t have to. Even my wife at 5’4 struggles with the limited space that reclined seats further reduce. So I also ask the person in front of her to refrain as well. Most of the time it works out but it just adds more stress to an already stressful environment.
12
Regardless of the annoyance Mr. Harteveldt felt, what did he think he'd gain by repeatedly punching Ms. Williams' seat? Yes, planes are crowded; I often fly Spirit, whose seats are fixed in the upright position and quite uncomfortable, but the flights rae short and even with back pain, I manage. Surely there was a better way to resolve this incident.
7
I am in the -passengers are allowed to recline - category. I recline slightly, due to back problems. I also don't complain if the person in front of me reclines. I'm surprised the flight attendant behaved the way she did in the story. The person kicking the chair was clearly wrong.
12
This is not the case with Saudi & Emirates Airlines. In those airlines, you have much comfortable seat and more space plus plenty of food. I never felt being treated as luggage until I tried US airlines. I feel I’m being slammed with others and they barely provide snacks.
8
The airlines profit while playing the venerable game of "why don't you and him fight".
At least for now, the seats in every Amtrak coach are wider, more comfortable, and recline further than any airline seat. Rows are far enough apart that nobody cares about how far anybody else reclines. Of course, Amtrak is now led by Richard Anderson, a refugee from the airline industry doing his best to recast Amtrak into a slow-motion version of Delta Airlines, a move that many observers say is nothing more than another aspect of the GOP's long-standing desire to kill Amtrak altogether.
So long as people insist on subsidizing rapacious and predatory airline companies, air travel will continue to get worse and cost more.
A more constructive answer is to demand that our government maintain a standard of passenger rail service comparable to that offered by every other first-world nation, specifically including Canada, Germany, England, Japan, and China.
10
The fault, in my opinion, is not with the passengers who take advantage of a necessary amenity, especially for us tall people; it's with the airlines which are moneygrubbing for every possible millimeter they can steal from us (and then sell back). I drive or take the train when I can instead of taking a shorter flight; it's a five-hour flight from EWR to PHX to see family, but lately driving for four or five days seems to be turning into a viable option. Unless one forks over three to six times the cost of a coach ticket for first class, air travel has become downright inhospitable.
11
Seriously, no one is ever going to reply "Of course, feel free to encroach further on my already limited space by reclining your seat."
I usually don't recline at all, but sometimes just a smidgen helps.
6
I can't believe that the author who wrote this is trying to restate the problem of airlines packing its "customers" like sardines. to one of seat etiquette!
Fuel is cheaper now more than ever. That is the driving cost factor of the airline business. Greed is why this is happening!
Seats reclining would not be a problem even talking about is the Airlines took out a row of seats and opened up space.
15
The airlines and the FAA are guilty of greed and indifference, respectively. As a result, the debate spills over to the public sphere as we, the public, accuse each other while the airlines make banal and insincere pronouncements about how they care about public safety, blah, blah blah and the regulator does NOTHING.
14
I am appalled that the CEO of Delta would think it is okay to have a passenger harass another one? This did not even happen on a Delta flight and has now raised concerns that this obnoxious behavior is acceptable when I fly Delta. Tragic and disappointing.
9
Disable the recline button and it's a moot issue.
9
The guy is rude showing an example of his core character. Would he do that cowardly pushing of the seat to a 6' male?
He is at fault.
I fly often for both business and pleasure.
Seats recline, part of what the passenger has paid for.
The service offered by the airline included with ticket purchase. Need more room, fly coach and pay for the extended leg room seats or first class.
Check box, avoid American air.
10
Just because a certain kind of behavior is made possible doesn't mean one has the absolute right to engage in it. For instance, should one have an absolute right to run a noisy motorcycle through a crowded residential area at 3am? One has the "right" to do that but shouldn't. So the expert's opinion is correct:
“Airplane etiquette is you only recline when necessary, and if you must recline, just put the seat back a little bit to get the comfort you need without encroaching too much on the person behind you.”
5
This whole conversation fascinates me. Is it, in the scope of things, a minimal issue? Yes. Nonetheless I am struck by the tone of judgement in the discussion. I wonder what it reflects about our current society. At 53, I have flown dozens of times over the past 40+ years. Until this story, I cannot think of even one instance where this was an issue. I cannot remember one time that I have ever asked for “permission” to recline, nor been asked for permission by the person in front of me. I read charges here of ‘selfishness’ and ‘rudeness ‘ against those who would have the gall to recline in a *recliner*. When did this become a thing?
12
I hardly fly short distances. I find the upright position, in which your neck is slightly pushed forward very uncomfortable. It feels awkward to read or watch a movie on the screen in front of you. So, yes, I like to recline my seat but never do during mealtime. I find it abhorrent how people act on a plane and how poor their problem-solving skills are. Kicking a seat in from of you if you are older than four in unacceptable as is video-taping something like this and publicly shaming people. That's how first-graders or Trump behave.
7
Airlines must put an end to the seat recline on domestic flights. The degree of comfort the recline affords a passenger is overshadowed by the level of discomfort experienced by the passenger behind them. As a business traveler of average height and weight who uses his laptop, I'm sick and tired of having the tray table jab me in the stomach when the passenger in front of me callously reclines with full force. The recline does not afford a passenger any extra leg room. As air carriers have ask travelers to sit in tighter quarters, it behooves them to address a problem which often results in conflicts between passengers. The airlines can't have it both ways. End the recline now.
7
I been travelling all over the world for decades and have never had the slightest bit of trouble with reclining. The vast majority of passengers are reasonable, considerate people who go out of their way to accommodate others. Everyone suffers from the increasingly crowded space on flights, but most reasonable people accept that the person in front of them is entitled to recline their seat and they make adjustments.
Unfortunately, you do have a few jerks who feel their comfort “trumps” everyone else’s and are prepared to commit uncivil acts to establish their “rights”. Rhythmically pushing the seat in front of you is a rude, obnoxious and aggressive act that should never be tolerated on an aircraft. He should have been met at the destination and told in no uncertain terms that his behavior was unacceptable and, if necessary, banned from flying with the airline company.
The mistake made by the other passenger was to film him without his permission, which can also be considered rude and a violation of privacy. Nevertheless, the way it was handled by the flight attendant seems one-sided and unprofessional. I hope (s)he will be reprimanded and provided with additional training.
I just booked a flight and paid about 30% extra to make sure I flew on a European carrier so I could be treated like a person and not cattle. I paid extra to get a bulkhead seat on the aisle. People who are not willing to share space with others always have the option of paying more for more space.
6
Passengers on flights are afforded woefully minimal space these days. All you’re getting is a tight place to sit. Perhaps people should accept the fact that they are not entitled to keep that recline space for themselves, any more than they are entitled to wider seats or more leg room. The seat in front of you can recline. Those are the terms - you’ve not choice but to accept it, and you’d be wise to expect it. If the person in front of you doesn’t recline then rejoice that you’ve been gifted with an extra few inches of face room for your flight. But you have not bought the right to that space, so stop feeling like you’re being cheated out of it when the person who has purchased it uses it.
5
Everyone says you should ask the person behind you if it's ok before you recline. In Economy, unless you're in an aisle seat it's almost impossible to even SEE that person, much less speak with them. So I usually just don't recline because it doesn't really make me any more comfortable. Maybe on a red-eye when everyone reclines.
5
This seems so absurd to me. The recline is maybe 3 inches max - what is this “a bit, but not all the way”.
If its not OK to use it, why is it there? Of course you can recline your seat.
9
It should come as no surprise to anyone that if people are treated like cattle, they will eventually start acting like cattle.
7
When you buy the ticket for the seat, you are also paying for its ability to recline. If it's considered rude to use this feature that you paid for then there is a flaw in the system that is not the consumer's responsibility to solve. If you are mad at reclining seats, your anger should not be directed at the person who paid for the seat, but the people who decide the space-per-seat (the airline), or you should have paid more for more room. If you are going to enjoy cheap ubiquitous air travel, then you should realize that you are going to be cramped for perhaps several hours, and this should hardly come as a surprise. If you are mad that it's difficult to use your laptop or reach your bag, or be perfectly relaxed, perhaps you are in denial that you are in a tiny flying box in the middle of the sky. Long distance travel is easier and cheaper than ever. Discomfort is part of the bargain.
8
Even with the seat in front of me in the upright position, there is not enough room to bend down to reach my bag (computer, etc) on the floor. The only way I can access my things is by leaning sideways into the person next to me, possible only if that person is small and is related. And even in this contorted position, my head or shoulder makes contact with the upright seat in front of me, still limiting my ability to reach down. Pity the poor passenger who is stuck behind a recliner!!
4
On a recent flight from NY to Tokyo I sat next to a tall man who had to spend the entire flight with his knees out to the sides in order to fit in the seat. On my other side was a petite woman who had all the room in the world to stretch out and relax. He was lovely and laughed it off but I was appalled. At 5'7" I was uncomfortable. At 6'2" he must have been miserable. And we all paid the same price. I fault the airlines.
5
Wendi (and her defenders) strike me as the same types of people who text in crowded movie theaters, who blast music in an apartment on a week night, who fly drones over other people’s picnics. None of these things are technically illegal—as I’m sure these types of people would be the first to point out—but how the thought their actions may bother other people doesn’t bother them, or even cross their minds, is mind-boggling to me.
It’s so easy not to be awful. Before you do something, simply consider those around you. If it what you wanna do will be bothersome, don’t do it! If that’s not enough to dissuade you (or it’s your right yada yada yada) how about simply asking if such & such would be okay?
In an airplane I would NEVER recline without first turning around, assessing what the human being behind me is doing, and/or asking if that would be alright.
As a 6’ 2” man who flies all the time and whose knees have been whacked by reclining airplane seats more times they I can count, it’s just common sense. And human decency.
8
I discovered an easy fix, years ago, for the reclined backrest issue.
I believed for years that tilting the backrest involved gears and cogs rotating in unison to move the seat, while keeping it locked in the desired position once found.
As it turns out, there's just a few degrees mobility afforded the backrest, but the forwardmost and backwardmost positions aren't set in stone. If you push a backrest with your knees and palms, the whole backrest will pivot forward, without disturbing the setting on the upright-to-reclined scale commanded by the button in the armrest.
And as I found out when I first tried it, if you're dealing with a loud, entitled moron in front of you who believes it's her God-given right to lay back during the whole flight, and let her freakishly long hair dangle in your plate while lounging during snack-time, you can enjoy payback by pushing the seat back as soon as she gets up (to go to the bathroom, say). Then sit back and enjoy the puzzled look when she comes back to find her seat upright, and discovers that pressing the button in the armrest flips the seat forward to a 60° angle. I wouldn't abuse the fix, but it's good to know it exists when dealing with particularly insensitive and obnoxious neighbors. For anyone worried about what her seating arrangements were for the rest of the flight: once the flight attendants established that something was wrong with her seat, she was given another one in the back of the plane. Win/win, if you ask me.
5
This sounds like the perfect storm, two badly behaved individuals and airline crew who made poor decisions how to handle the situation. There's no mention of whether the guy immediately resorted to kicking her seat or whether he first asked her nicely to not recline due to his constricted space. This may or may not have effected the situation, depending on her personality. In any case, she should have been more considerate, he shouldn't have acted like a bratty kid, and the stewardesses should have considered moving him to a new seat. Pathetic honestly.
4
The other thing to consider is that airline seat size standards were likely set decades ago when Americans weren't nearly so fat. Given that trend is towards the ever increasing size of the average American traveller, this does not bode well. Something has got to give!
6
I rarely recline my seat. I’m rather short and feel for the taller and larger people behind me. But, if you sit in front of me and slam your seat back into recline? I seem to keep bumping into your seat to get things in my bag, and since I have no room, I need to grab it and pull back to get up for the restroom and I might develop a nervous kick.
111
@Myjobisinindianow Yep. Especially if the flight is less than 2 or 3 hours. If the seat in front of needs tries to fully recline then I just have something to prop my knees up on.
8
@Myjobisinindianow I always recline my seat, and I expect the person behind me to do so too. I don't find it disrespectful, even after reading this article and comments. If you kick my seat, I will assume that you did it on accident, because I would find that to be disrespectful. I suggest that you talk to the person in front of you, because different people will find different things disrespectful (you reclining, I kicking). Luckily we have language we can use to communicate. If you are embarrassed to ask the person in front of you to give you more space, maybe you are not so sure that you are right.
23
@Serg Yes. Thank you saying it so nicely.
3
Never ever occurred to me I might be the bad guy when I slowly recline my seat, I thought everyone and their support dog did, as soon as the seat belt sign went off. Sit upright so someone behind me can work on their laptop? No Thanks.
170
So your “right” to recline trumps (perfect word in this case) someone else’s desire to use their tray table or simply have a little extra room to be more comfortable? This kind of selfish entitlement is uniquely frustrating.
59
@wopple
Clearly, everyone doesn't, and often for reasons of consideration for the person behind them. It's often small behaviors that reveal a lot about us.
31
@wopple Be slightly uncomfortable so that someone can actually get work done on a flight when sitting behind you? (It's not like most people working on airplanes are doing it because they want to.)
Perish the thought.
23
This whole thing is insane. The lady who reclined her seat had every right to do so. She paid for a reclining seat, how can anyone in their right mind say that you are not supposed to use a facility that is part of the fare you paid? The jerk behind her should have been arrested as he got off the plane. Period.
On a more fundamental level, every time that I see something like this I am reassured in my decision not to fly any more unless absolutely essential. Suffer the indignities imposed by the airlines and idiots like this guy to get to a destination crammed with millions of imbeciles taking selfies? Not worth it. I am retiring in a few months, moving to northern New Mexico, and traveling only where i can drive. I was born half a century too late, but I still remember, as a little kid, the glorious days of flying Super Constellations and Britannias
11
It’s so dumb that we are getting mad at each other instead of getting mad at airline execs who are lining their pockets by a stealing our space, comfort, and dignity.
26
This is ALL THE AIRLINES’ FAULT! When will we revolt and stop letting them treat us like passengers in steerage???!!!
19
No hitting. Fin.
8
I'm 6 foot 2. If you recline your seat in front of me you will badly hurt my knees. I will scream involuntarily and push back hard. Yes, it's the airlines' fault for eliminating legroom but I can't very well smack an airline.
6
In which case pony up for more room.
6
I’m 5’5 and have replaced knees. I can’t stand to have the seat in front of me up against my knees. Slightly reclining the seat makes it more comfortable for me. Which is why I purchase an economy plus seat. I fully expect to be able to recline that seat if I want to.
5
But you can smack the person in front of you?
1
There is this thing called Manners. It is just plain Rude and Ill-Mannered to recline your seat when you know full well you are making someone behind you very uncomfortable. For that reason I NEVER recline my seat. I know from experience the tray table comes down right on your lap and you are basically trapped in your seat when the person in front of you reclines.
The title of this article should be "Are you Selfish or Considerate of Others?". Or how about "Are You a Rude, Obnoxious Person or Not?".
And let's be real. Saying its the airlines' fault that you are behaving rudely just proves my point. Blaming someone else for your obnoxious behavior shows you are self-centered.
5
They’re both wrong. She was self centered and discourteous to recline, and he reacted wholly improperly. I hope I’m never sitting behind this inconsiderate woman.
9
Reclining if the person in front of you reclines doesn’t help folks w long legs. The seat literally crams into their knees. Don’t recline the full amount. Just don’t.
7
Putting this off on passengers is abhorrent. This is all the fault of the airline industry and Washington's inability and unwillingness to regulate anything that effects the profit to be made. To heck with people if it gets in the way of making a buck.
11
Unbelievable. 1. If she had been a man, unlikely the hipster dude would touched her seat. 2. If she had been a man, he would have likely punched his lights out (and rightly so). 3. He should be charged with battery by striking her with the seat rest. 4. The flight attendant should be fired for threatening the woman with removal and arrest, and for trying to force her to delete evidence. The airlines position has been disgusting and defamatory. I certainly hope she sues their pants off. They design these torture devices known as seats to be reclined during flight. It was her right. I hate flying on any US airlines; worst seats, worst service, worst food, worst attitudes.
14
I was on a flight recently where a woman across the aisle complained because the man behind her placed his feet under her seat. He had no lggage under her seat so he was able to stretch his legs. She complained endlessly to him and then called the FA and cried about it. The flight attendant shouted at him, saying he wasn't a gentleman and should refrain from stretching his legs. He complied without argument. He wasn't overly tall and didn't appear to be doing anything that was incorrect. I thought passengers had the right to use the space under the seat in front of them. I still can't figure out why the woman's complaint was deemed valid by the FA (female). Strange.
9
Im 6'2" tall. I never complain if the person in front fully reclines. He or she surely needs the room. By the same token I would never allow someone behind to object to me using mine. This is an airline induced issue. If we want to solve it, our business as passengers is not to bicker among ourselvs. Our job is to join up, organize and push back on the CFO's who make their annual bonuses cramming us into sardine cans and telling us how lucky we are to have one.
7
The recline function is provided to be used, just as is a sound system, and sometimes a video play system. Would you object to someone using either of those provided seat functions? The airlines provide these for a reason, and the seats are spaced so that it is a minimal problem, maybe a slight discomfort, and a readjustment of your position, but not a catastrophe. Even looking at the video of that guy punching the seat, he could perfectly see his screen and was just being a misogynist jerk. He wouldn't have done this to a MAN sitting in that seat.
There are lots of reasons why people need to recline a bit. If it bothers you:
1. blame the airlines for the bad design not the passenger ahead of you, write the airline, and vote with your feet - find a better airline;
2. pay for more legroom by upgrading to a better seat;
3. if you must work, position your computer appropriately - which I do all the time with a seat in front of me reclined - it's not impossible;
4. put your big boy tighty-whities on and deal with it, eat your dinner - which is entirely possible when the person ahead of you is still reclined, and then go to sleep, bunch of snowflake babies.
10
I'm not proud of it but on a cross-country flight one time in an aisle seat, a 6 or 7 year old kid in the seat behind me kept pushing on my seat back with his hyperactive little little kid feet. I asked him politely to stop, then I asked his mother, who simply glowered at me, so as a last resort - and this an hour into a 5-hour flight - I got up to use the restroom and as I passed by the kid, I leaned down and whispered into his ear that if he continued to kick my seat I was going to throw him off the plane. Problem solved.
18
Delta's Bastian should be fired.
You build airplanes with progressively smaller and smaller seats and less and less leg room. You put us in a position where even a slight lean back can be uncomfortable for the person behind.
Then you have the supreme nerve to ask US to do your dirty work and be the polite buffer between YOU and the passenger that YOU -- that's right, YOU -- have sardined.
Oh, the humanity.
10
It’s simple — you don’t recline
7
I wonder if he would have punched the seat if it was a man sitting in it and not a woman ?
7
Definitely not. Wouldn’t be surprised if this isn’t the first time this man has assaulted a woman.
1
This is ridiculous. The airlines and plane makers are the problem. Put proper space between seats if they are going to recline, or don't let them recline.
7
This is ridiculous, why give reclined seats if you cant use them as you would like?
10
The man was a passive aggressive jerk. He should have asked her politely to not recline and/or asked for assistance from the attendant. He provoked a stand-off. There's a button to recline on the chair. Using it isn't a provocation. If the airlines don't want travellers to use it, than they should remove it, or explain the etiquette along with the safety instructions at the beginning of the flight.
8
@ROBERT Many of these planes are 20 or 30 years old. Many started flying with fewer seats, and in a configuration where the reclining button was warranted, given the available space.
I think it's still perfectly reasonable to expect civilized human beings to know whether it's ok to recline, or whether they're going to land in the lap of the person behind them (and understand that it's NOT ok).
I guess not ALL adults are able to tell the difference, and need the airlines to tell them by removing the button. Rather sad.
2
The FAA ought remove the reclining function from any airplane seat where it would be dangerous to use it—which is almost certainly ALL of them, given the cram-the-sardines-and-charge-for-their-carryon airlines.
But it's more likely we'll see the FAA pay the greedlines behind our backs per dangerous-recline seat, if they don't already. I mean, they'd happily let the vile Boeing murder us...
7
Easy to Fix, remove a couple of rows of seating and give everyone more room.
9
I have had multiple encounters where my knees press into the seat in front of me if it's reclined, and the person in front tries multiple times to push back against them.
One guy turned around and glared at me and then accused me of "kicking" his seat because my knees--which hadn't moved--collided with his seat when he rammed it back.
5
I think people should avoid reclining unless absolutely necessary--none of us are happy with the sardinelike conditions inside an airplaine--but the guy who was punching her seat is just breathtakingly immature.
3
Imagine what it feels like when you are over 6 feet tall and your legs are already pretzels and hitting the seat in front of you and a man (it is usually a man) decides to sleep with the seat full back. It is a form or torture. And yes the airlines are to blame for making the leg room less and less and for allowing all the seats to recline into the next passenger's body space!
5
Mr. Harteveldt's unwritten seat rule is ridiculous 'You don’t do it unless you really need to'? What defines need? Also, if I 'need' to recline, can I at the same time object to the person in front of me reclining?
5
If you have a soul, you don’t recline.
7
I try not to recline my seat unless the person in from of me is doing so, and leaving me less space. What really annoys me, though, is when a child keeps kicking my seat from behind and their parents do nothing.
5
Blame greed because that's the root of our lousy airline problem.
4
People who complain about recliners like me have so little consideration for others. Using equipment the way it is designed is not wrong. Demanding that others cater to your needs is wrong. Unless there is a parent with an infant behind me, I recline. If you do not like it, buy a better seat and please shut up. Newsflash--The world does not revolve around you.
7
@Ylem So little consideration? So you can slam me in my kneecap?
4
@Ylem Point taken. But as a 6"4 guy who has had to push back seats in front of him with people in them who had the same lack of consideration for others you do, let me tell you that your rationalization comforts me in my ways. And if you find your backrest being pushed into a permanent 70° angle forward not to your liking:
Newsflash--The world does not revolve around you.
3
The one sure way to deal with the ignoramuses who recline their seats is for the airlines to install seats that do not recline. Problem over.
5
Can I just ask that if you’re going to recline your seat you do not do it during meal service? My young son had a woman do this to him a few weeks ago. He couldn’t eat off of his tray when it came, and the woman was doing yoga in her seat. He was reduced to absolutely no room to eat while she acted like a fool.
4
This 'controversy' is beyond bizarre. People pay the same $ for a particular category of airline seating. The seat purchased reclines. The airlines make it plain it is proper to recline your seat. Yet reclining your seat imposes on the space of another passenger - a passenger who has also purchased a seat (and the personal space that is part of that seat purchase). So we have airlines that intentionally sell seats and accompanying personal passenger space that knowingly conflicts the purchase rights of both passengers. The FAA and Congress allow this situation. Who is to blame? If you assume airlines only care about profit and will reduce passenger space to the absolute minimum then the real culprits are Congress and the FAA which blatantly ignore this 'seat fraud' and abuse of passengers. Just another sad and frustrating example of why the US Congress is the best Congress money can buy.
8
Classic example of "capitalism, left unchecked is a venomous creature." Seat spacing should be regulated. I'm slight--5'10, 155 and when someone leans back my laptop screen is so tilted I have to pull it back to my belly button in order to straighten out the screen. Even then my neck is bent for the entire duration.
If we didn't have regulation for air quality several hundred million would be dead from air pollution in LA alone. The auto companies, like the airlines, cannot be expected to 'do the right thing' in a capitalist system. It's really dirt simple. We need regulation on certain fronts.
4
A simple solution for both the recliner and the person in back of the recliner:
Trade seats
3
The continuing debate about this issue is ridiculous. Air travel can be uncomfortable. Reclining seats make it less so, especially on long flights. As long as airlines permit if, the indignant seat police just need to deal with it.
4
Why haven't we heard from the "gentleman" in the video? Because what he did was childish, boorish, and assaultive. The American Airlines employee who supported his behavior needs a bit of training to say the least. American Airlines owes the woman an apology. Airlines need to set some rules. How about posting expected rules and reinforce prior to take off?
7
Had the airlines not packed people in like Sardines in a can, this would not be an issue.
5
MS. Williams was in the wrong, acting selfishly and inconsiderately. Hope I never have to encounter her on a plane, because she now feels emboldened and in the future will “push back” with impunity.
6
People who recline are awful, but they're awful people with rights. Not the worst case of that these days, is it?
1
The airline provides seats that recline. So they need to support the people that use them and quash the rude and bullying behavior of people who would prefer the reclining feature wasn’t used. The accountability lies with the airline. If you offer reclining seats some customers will use them. And you need to support the use of the product you have supplied to be used. If there are no reclining seats on the plane there won’t be an issue. Stop giving free cocktails to bullies. 
6
Let’s be clear that “recline” in modern economy is not a recliner! It is merely an accommodation for the otherwise obese to not collapse due to cramps and circulation while in flight.
4
We’ve become very soft in this country. There was a time when travel from coast to coast took many weeks by stage coach and getting to the other side of the country alive was not guaranteed. To be able to travel such a distance in just 4 or so hours is a great miracle. I’d be fine doing it sitting in a folding chair or even sitting on the floor. I generally sit upright to give the person behind me maximum space. But, I don’t fault the person in front of me for reclining if that’s what he/she wants to do. People… you’re travelling over vast amounts of space in just a few hours. If your comfort level is a B+ instead of an A+, deal with it. And please, don’t kick and punch the person in front of you if they recline. That behavior was disgusting. Even a 5 year old would/should know that’s not appropriate. This man’s parents did a poor job of parenting him. He is still a child.
5
The flight attendant who scolded her needs to be fired. The bully who pounded the seat is guilty of assault and needs to be arrested. The airline CEO who said you need to ask permission is a prime example of the ignorance that abounds in executive offices. If the seat reclines, you are entitled to recline regardless of all the sanctimonious comments here. That's the way it is. Either the airlines disable reclining seats or get over it.
7
I fly across the country every week (live on the east coast, work in the Pacific NW). I am a short woman (5”). The head rest “bump” that would normally cradle a person’s head by fitting into the groove of a taller person’s neck (between shoulders and head) hits me squarely in the back of the head and pushes it forward 1-2 inches. I’ve yet to find a seat that lets me lower that neck “rest” enough to actually let my neck rest. As a result, I have to recline because the alternative is to sit there for hours unable to put my head back.
If I paid for a reclining seat, and went through the trouble of choosing a flight and seat that accommodate this, I’m going to recline. I purposefully pay the extra costs to be able to choose seats ahead of time and I don’t choose flights that where I can’t be sure that I won’t have the “comfort” I’m looking for.
In this day and age of airline apps and the ability to easily curate one’s travel, even in coach, don’t expect me to feel bad exercising my right to enjoy an amenity I made the effort to seek out and procure, especially if you didn’t do the same. If you end up in a bad seat despite your best efforts then talk to me like a human being and maybe we can work something out. But the sense of entitlement exhibited by this man is beyond the pale and he should be prosecuted.
And this, btw, is why I haven’t flown American in years. Every time I think it may be time to come back, something like this happens and reminds me of why I stay away.
9
The following passage in the article sets out the real problem, the greedy airlines and the supine regulators:
“In 2018, the Federal Aviation Administration declined to regulate the size of seats on airplanes, despite consumer complaints about comfort and questions about safety.
“In an interview with CNBC on Friday, Ed Bastian, the chief executive for Delta Air Lines, appeared to agree with the unwritten rule of the skies. “The proper thing to do is, if you’re going to recline into somebody, you ask if it’s OK first,” he said.
“Michael Boyd, an aviation analyst, said on Friday that “in any case, it is the airline that determines the amount of space a seat takes up, not the passengers themselves.”
3
I can't believe this woman's rudeness. If, like some of these commentators, Ms. Williams had a physical issue that required her to recline, she could have told the man behind her, and reduced some of the tension. Her obnoxious ending comment makes me hope I never sit behind her.
4
Ms Williams obviously believes in “rights” rather than courtesy. I never recline my seat if there is someone in the seat behind me. On one trip to Europe, there was a very large man in the seat in front of me, he tried to get up from his seat while reclined by putting all his weight on the seat back. I thought he would break the seat in two and wind up in my lap!
Ms Williams is obviously British. Interesting that we always credit the Brits with manners...guess wrong again!
4
Fly Frontier Airlines ... none of the seats in coach recline.
1
No matter what the problem is, Americans will find a way to make it an person vs. person problem, instead of recognizing that they are receiving a terrible product and service and that they should be “against” the corporation.
Brainwashed? Its definitely a cultural bias but its also just plain old fashioned lack of common sense! Who buys a recliner and then not recline?
1
This is the airline’s problem, caused by their profit motive. Too many seats, getting tighter and smaller. It’s an untenable situation.
Personally, I recline only an inch or two, just to change from the full upright position, which is not comfortable. I am aware of the passenger behind me, and I try to be considerate. I have had passengers in front of me slam their seats back as if I wasn’t even there. It’s selfish, rude, inconsiderate, arrogant. I don’t think politely asking them not to do it would make any difference. There are just way too many people out there who are totally self absorbed.
Again, greed seems to motivate everything. Federal authorities are bought and paid for, corporations don’t care about nation or individual. It’s just money, money, money…
This pervasive attitude, embodied in our entire society, causes people to feel that they should be as selfish as everyone else is.
Pretty sick really.
2
As a fairly frequent flyer, my view is this is definitely the fault of the airlines. I have flown on planes recently where I could not keep my tray table level when someone reclined their seat; there just wasn’t enough room. The airlines helped for a while by limiting the angle of recline, but pressure to make money has led to even closer spacing now, which limits the effectiveness of that strategy.
My expectation is improvements will occur only after this seat packing issue causes death or serious injury, same as the 737Max situation. For example, do the airlines re-run evacuation safety tests whenever they put in extra rows of seats or decrease spacing in economy to improve spacing in business class or economy plus? I bet not.
Since seat packing makes it both harder to evacuate in he allotted time and increases the number of people to evacuate, I view such tests as one way to determine when airlines take things too far. Of course, I don’t expect airlines or the FAA to be that responsible. Such tests cost money and may not be legally necessary. Thus my pessimism about improvements happening only after some tragedy makes it absolutely necessary.
6
I don't know what airplanes this article is talking about, but all the airplanes I have been on, recline so little that this is a non-issue. I do recline my seat, and most of the time, I'm not even sure if the seat is reclined or not, because the reclining is so little. If I don't recline my seat, and the person in front does, I just recline mine, and don't even think about it twice. This is just not a real problem with the planes we fly today.
On the other hand, I would love to see planes have electronically controlled reclining that activated at night, where everyone is reclined "a lot".
4
Airlines should either provide more room or they should fix the seats so they only recline an inch or so. It's not reasonable to expect passengers to deal with the ambiguity.
One time when I was on a crowded flight, the passenger next to me started the trip by telling me that I better make sure I didn't touch him or the hand rest between us.
2
I'm sorry, but I have to ask.
I haven't been on a domestic flight in years in which the seats reclined more than about three inches. I find it excruciating to sit for long in a fully-upright seat, and relish the relief the extra few inches of recline provides. The people sitting in front of me may or may not recline their seats, but in flight, I can't tell much difference (I'm 6'1", and in most aircraft my knees either touch or come within one or two inches of the seat in front of me).
Where are the airplanes in which this is a real problem?
1
I haven't been on an airplane since 2003 at which time I noticed that the space between rows was significantly reduced than when I flew regularly in the early 1970s. The foot rests are no longer available on the seat in front of you either. The industry is the problem.
2
The problem is the airlines' cramming people tighter than sardines in the pursuit of profits. And the FAA for not requiring a minimum space for both comfort and safety. Eventually, everyone will have to stand in their 15 x 8-inch allotted floor space. I am so glad I no longer have any need nor desire to fly.
4
"“It’s the airline’s job to fix the problem, not mine!”"
Very true, but in order to pack in yet another straight-jacket-style seat, their way to "fix" it will be to fix it -- make it unreclinable.
Air travel is about as pleasant as it must have been to be an oarsman on an ancient galley.
And by the way, what about shades? It seems that many passengers want to travel in the dark, either to sleep or use something with an illuminated screen. Well, I want to look outside and I paid for a window seat. But I had a man 2 rows back and across the aisle from me on a daylight flight come to my row and tell me to pull down my shade!! Are you kidding me?
2
On an overnight flight, or one lasting six hours or more, recline is fine. Otherwise, don’t do it, or only do just a tad. We’re already scrunched in like peas-in-a-pod. The airline industry has, literally, given passengers no wiggle room.
2
Most Of the flights I've been on in the past couple years -- except for overnight ones -- don't even have seats that recline! If they did, I agree: courtesy and moderation rule.
1
To me, this is just another example of how the airlines are not interested in providing reasonable service for the prices they charge. The seats and space around them have become so small that even I - a 5'2" woman - am uncomfortable. It is very difficult to retrieve something from your handbag under the seat in front of you - there's very little space to get at it, gymnastic contortions required. My husband, at 5'11" not a particularly large man, is squished into his seat, and uncomfortable, for the length of the flight. The seats were not designed for adults, I think. The airlines could probably put bleachers in the planes because flying has become the only way to get places; as we have seen, the airlines can do whatever they want and will still collect their large fees. Bleachers will be next! You can make a reservation, but if life intervenes and you need to change the flight, you're out of luck: There will be no changing of flights, you are s-t-u-c-k with the one you originally selected. You can change doctor appointments, lots of other kinds of appointments but you cannot change flights. Policy, sorry. Quite a business they have going, quite a business.
3
I only recently realized that this was a thing when a friend of mine related, with a tone of moral indignation, that she can't *stand* when the person in the airline seat in front of her reclines and that she firmly pushes back to prevent the seat from moving into "her space." She was rather triumphant in the way she described her technique, and I was a little shocked and mumbled something like, "wow, really?"
I guess I am naive (or obtuse?) but I always used to think that everyone reclined. I guess when the airlines started to pack us in and to treat coach travelers like the low class people we in effect are (Think about it: Only "First Class" travelers are first class by definition), we all got crankier, more easily offended, and more territorial.
Too bad we didn't learn to communicate to others as we grew up (except by text, and barely so at that) and to advocate for ourselves firmly but politely with those around us, as it would save so much more than our collective sanity. A few well-chosen (polite) words would go a long way and make everyone's life more pleasant. Next time you fly, why not poll the people around you to find out how they feel about it, before reclining?
The simple solution is to change seat design to have seats slide forward rather than backs recline. If you want to reduce your own space then that's your choice and it won't impact those behind you.
That said there is zero good reason to decline on a domestic flight of a few hours and should a!so be avoided on longer day flights.
2
Was in sales for 40 years. Am 6’ 3” tall. For many years had frequent flyer status and got upgraded to first class where seat reclining is not an issue. Later in my career, after about 2008, I flew less and would upgrade for a fee to more legroom in economy for my business flights, again reclining was not an issue. All of these tickets were purchased on an expense account so money was not an issue. Now retired, I fly much less and economy only. Sometimes, but not often, I upgrade to the increased legroom seats for a fee if it isn’t at extortion rates. However when now traveling in steerage I occasionally have a forward neighbor who wants to fully recline. It’s uncomfortable for both of us as my legs prevent their seat from from fully reclining on most cabin seating configurations. So the short answer is that airlines can solve the problem by removing a few rows and giving everybody in the back of the plane a little more legroom. Doubtful that the airlines will be that compassionate so long as they can cram the maximum amount of people onto the plane. Legislation would be the only cure but that is unlikely and would only increase ticket prices. If recliners irritate anyone to distraction the best solution is for those folks to cough up the premium for the extra legroom seats. (Btw I only fully recline on overnight flights)
I have been flying for 50 years and wonder when it became unacceptable to recline, especially if you are on a long flight. After all, it is there. I never do it after beverages are served, but other than that, I think it is fine. People have become so obnoxious on flights, including the flight attendants.
3
The obvious solution the reclining wars (although it would require refitting) is to give the cockpit a master "all up/all recline" control to ensure all seats are up on takeoff and on landing. Once cruising altitude is attained, the master cockpit control would go to "all recline." At that point, anyone who wishes to give themselves "less room" by putting the seat upright would be free to use the seat control to do so.
There is ETIQUETTE and then there is what is LEGALLY CORRECT. Since the passenger has PAID for the seat and the seat reclines, passenger has the RIGHT to recline. If a passenger reclines, the cabin-crew has NO right to ask them to straighten the seat, except when required per FAA regulations (Landing, takeoff, emergency etc). As far as etiquette goes, it would make sense to alert the person behind you as a courtesy before reclining. However if the passenger reclining chooses not to alert person behind, they have not done anything wrong, just not extended courtesy to the person behind. Bottomline, airlines have NO right to pass judgement on courtesy and etiquette, because the ROOT of the problem is the airlines reducing SEAT PITCH, charging FEES for extra pitch and then unloading the problem on PAYING passengers (their CUSTOMERS, I might add). Something is wrong with this picture, Ed Bastian!!!
2
I used to travel a lot and never had any problems reclining or with others doing so. If I wanted to do so, I asked the passenger behind me how far I recline without making him uncomfortable, and recliners never made me feel "cornered." The only element that did bother me during plane trips was the screeching of babies and toddlers: auditory water torture.
This squabble is squarely the fault of airlines. They squish too many adults into child-size seats that make everyone uncomfortable, sometimes painfully so, for hours. But airlines won't change. Why should they.
America needs bullet trains that have been available in Europe since the 1980s and in parts of Asia for many years. What's wrong with this country that so many people would rather be serfs who attack each other rather than demand better transportation available in other countries for decades.
The airlines love the discomfort that reclining generates. They need it to create demand for pricier seats that they have on offer. Capitalism, ain't it grand?
It makes me upset when I can't recline because someone behind is blocking me. It makes me upset when I have someone in front of me recline on top of me.
The bottom line: this is the airlines' problem. They have created it, and they should deal with it. We all pay for a REAL seat that has sufficient space, not a position that is in constant conflict with others.
1
Recline or not recline? The bigger issue is, if the person in front of the puncher had been a MAN, would we even be having this discussion? I don't think so. Mr. Punchy wouldn't have been quite so bold.
The female passenger was assaulted for doing something that she is ALLOWED TO DO, whether flight "etiquette" dictates it or not. The bulkhead passenger repeatedly punched the back of her head. Thank goodness she didn't have spinal issues that were exacerbated by having her head pounded repeatedly.
Did the friendly drink-dispensing flight attendant think about THAT?
1
You do not have a god-given right to make the passenger behind you very uncomfortable just because the airline skimps on space. I am really having trouble understanding why people jettison common courtesy just because they are physically able.
Take some responsibility! If you want to recline your seat, just ask the person behind you to let you know if it is too cramped. How difficult is it to treat your fellow passengers with respect?
And we should all complaint intensely to the airlines who put us in this position.
1
You do not have a god-given right to make the passenger behind you very uncomfortable just because the airline skimps on space. I am really having trouble understanding why people jettison common courtesy just because they are physically able.
Take some responsibility! If you want to recline your seat, just ask the person behind you to let you know if it is too cramped. How difficult is it to treat your fellow passengers with respect?
And we should all complaint intensely to the airlines who put us in this position.
Every airline offers a variety of seats for purchase. For a larger than average man to be in the last row, he selected the cheapest option, with the airline assigning him that seat. Even then, after boarding is complete and if the plane isn't entirely full, the airline with again offer passengers the option to upgrade to another seat. No one but this man is responsible for his seat selection, and his banging on the seat in front of him was rude should not be defended!
1
I just cannot believe that the flight attendant on that infamous AA flight would not tell that male passenger to cut that out! He probably got a very cheap fare and that his seat didn't recline was part of that cheapness. Personally I would think sitting next to the lavatory would be even worse that the lack of recline and I will not book a flight that is anywhere near the absolute rear of the plane. It isn't that woman's fault that he got that crummy seat because he wanted the lowest fare.
I have a bad neck and the pain associated with it. As stated by "M" below, I have to put the seat back somewhat to relieve the pressure on my neck. My husband is 6'5", my son 6'4" and my daughter is 6'. They all need to recline as well. As my husband has pointed out, if there isn't food service going on, the seats recline so he is going to use it. If the airlines don't like this, they can pay to limit the degree of recline. We try to book upgraded seats when we can but i have to say that those business class seats do not do anything to make the flight much more comfortable.
Flying is difficult for everyone but rather than talking to the woman in front of him who had the "unmitigated nerve" to reclined her seat (it sounds like my neck and her neck are best friends) he chose to BULLY her and the airlines did nothing. She should definite sue AA, the flight attendant should be suspended, and that nasty, rude dude should definitely be banned from flying.
2
The biggest issue SHOULD be the ongoing practice if minimizing the distance between seats. I no longer can fly be cause I am tall and old and have had one heart attack. With the small space, the circulation is cut off in my legs and puts me in jeopardy of a blood clot. Further, I cannot afford the expanded leg room seats that give you a mere 2 inches more. And to add insult to injury, most airlines now charge for any checked luggage so the space under the seats is so jammed with carry on “handbags” that there is also no foot room.
We live in a culture where capitalism seems to perceive that success is making more and more money while you are getting less and less for it.
I first noticed this trend when packaged bacon prices went up while simultaneously the contents were reduced from one pound to 12 ounces.
But the top execs incomes and benefits keep exploding while most of us can no longer afford the bacon.
17
@Mountain Dragonfly
One problem with your rant... the underseat space in front of your feet will only be filled with your possessions... so bring less. Sorry you can't afford an upgrade to economy plus, like much in life better amenities cost more. Interestingly it is jnow fact that tall men generally earn a bit more...
There are a number of good reasons a) not to fly at all or b) only when you have no other choice at all but to fly. This article highlights one of them. In my eighth decade I have come to the conclusion that life is simply too short to spend any time in an airplane where my freedom will be severely inhibited from the time I enter the airport, I will be subject to search and intrusive scrutiny, I will be physically uncomfortable, I will have absolutely no privacy or freedom from others’ conversations, music, body odors, etc. I will be adding to the earth’s grave environmental challenges, I will be nickeled and dimed over and above the ticket price if I want to choose a seat, stow my luggage, have something to eat or drink, or have room for my knees and feet, and I will very likely be exposed in an enhanced way to whatever illnesses happen to be on the rampage at the moment. And then, once I’ve gone through all that, I probably will have no choice but to do it all over again in order to return home. No thanks. When humans as a species have recovered some semblance of conviction that in order to have people behave like civilized humans you must treat them like civilized humans with feelings and some inherent dignity, perhaps flying may once again become a tolerable, if not a pleasurable way to travel. Unfortunately people now have good reason to know what to expect when they decide to buy an airline ticket; if you do so, you do it at your own risk.
7
In every flight, they always ask that you put your seat back to its normal position (unreclined) for take off and landing. The airline expects that people will recline. To everyone saying that it is inconsiderate to recline, let it be known that the airline does not care if you recline or not. They expect passengers will recline and are just letting them know that for take off and landing they can't (but no restrictions for the rest of the flight). I am not advocating reclining in general, but lets be clear about the rules. It is perfectly allowed, without having to ask for permission. If you want a remedy, complain to the FAA and the airline, not the passenger in front of you (that won't fix the industry problem).
8
On a flight back from Europe I was reading some notes from a meeting and the person in front of me reclined his seat into my head. What is most disappointing is that I had paid 70 Euros extra for an extra space seat. I am not sure if it is the airline to blame for the extreme amount of seat reclining that interfered with my ability to work on the plane (the seat shaded half the lighted area of my tray table) or if the interior design of the A330neo is to blame.
5
On a recent flight from US to Europe, I paid for an economy ticket. On my latest flight to Asia, i upgraded myself to business, and paid a full business fare on my next flight back to Europe. Problem solved. If your business is so important, that you have to make use of all your waken hours on board, you should do the same. When i fly coach, which I do most, I EXPECT the person in front of me to recline the 2 inches the seat allows, and I also encourage it.
1
Seats in the Airbus A320 are made of a thinner rigid material that has a smaller total volume and therefore takes up less space. The seat reclines perhaps an inch, if that. I've never heard a passenger screaming in agony in the A320 because they couldn't push their seat back; nor have a I witnessed a fist fight or shoving match when a passenger reclined into the lap of the person behind him. Design a better seat and take away the option of reclining—solves a lot of problems.
7
years ago I realized that there is really only one circumstance with which I have no control - flying! my life is is the hands of a couple of other people. that being said, I think the determination of reclining should be determined by the length of the flight. I you're on a 6-12 flight, you should be able to recline at some point. as a matter of fact, on those long hauls, they turn the lights off in the cabin. HINT - go to sleep...
5
Isn't this another case of lack of regulation and the failure of the "market"? Smaller seats higher prices.No wonder its called "cattle class".Consumers should make their views felt.
9
Um, if the CEO of an airline suggests that passengers shouldn’t fully recline, then perhaps he should modify the seats so that they don’t fully recline.
11
@John perhaps the CEO of any airline should be required to travel in sardine-class, center seat, at least 10 times a year.
4
When u travel economy, please remember the limited space between he front and rear chair. Yes, the seat could be reclined, you may choose to recline a little but do not reclined and try to treat your seat like a bed, at the inconvenience of one behind you. If you like to have such such comfort, go fly business class or first class. Such behaviour only show the cheap character of the person. Personally I met a few such incidences
I understand it is difficult to sit 90 degree through even a 3 hrs flight time. A slight recline. Is acceptable. Airlines should bear the responsibility of limiting the degree of decline. The aircrew cannot do anything if the chair are designed for reclined at such big angle. It is the fault of the airline to start with that lead to the poor customers’ behaviour
5
"Treat the seat like a bed"? Are you serious? A bed with an 85 degree angle? "Cheap character of the person"? Did you pay for my seat, or did I pay for it? I remember clearly, that when I booked my ticket, it was advertised as a "reclining seat". I will raise my seat during meal service. I will comply with the regulations, and keep my seat upright during takeoff and landing. But I also guarantee you that you will have no say in whether I recline my seat or don't, because I paid for the reclining function, and the seat was carefully chosen on the basis of it's size and recline capability.
1
The seat has a recline button by design. If the airline wants to pack another row of cattle for their profit margin, order seats without buttons.
Many years ago, I was flying from Newark to OHare in non-smoking. I arrived in plenty of time, but the gate attendant put me in the next to last row of the plane, saying I would need to move away from the smoking section when I got on the packed flight. Of course no one wanted to move back, so most of the smoking seats became nonsmoking by law. Nearby passengers glared at me the entire flight for standing up for my rights. Let the airline accommodate the rights of the passengers to live within the limits they are entitled to.
I hate it when my laptop and I get squeezed by the recliner in front of me, but the seat punching infant should have been arrested for disrupting the flight and the cabin attendant should be fired for fostering the misbehavior. The airline owes whatever a jury will award the woman who was victimized for behaving properly within the restrictions placed on her.
6
By asking passengers and cabins crews to sort out an untenable situation, airlines have successfully shifted the blame for overcrowded airplanes onto the flying public. If the implication of the disappearing leg room is that you should not recline (as the flight attendant in the article suggests), then airlines should simply limit the range of recline of their seats. Offering a seat that reclines but then suggesting that you should refrain from doing so or that you should negotiate with the passenger behind you is a diversion tactic and a skirting of responsibilities.
9
The only way is to keep all seats static. There's no point in a seat having the ability to recline if the person behind has to suffer inconvenience if you do. And can exercise the power to stop you doing it.
6
If the seats should not recline, then airlines should not makes seats that do recline. If the seats should recline, then the airlines should make airplanes that would not encroach on the average person’s space or defend the right of the passenger to recline. I understand that airline attendants are not trained in conflict resolution but are trained in maintaining a calm cabin for everyone’s safety.
There will always be outliers. Someone who needs to recline due to physical discomfort or needing the sleep against someone who needs that extra knee room. For safety, the airlines should attend to that and try to move people BEFORE the aggravation begins. Should be no different for the airlines than checking out if the people sitting by the exit doors are capable and willing to do their duty if an emergency occurs.
3
I have to admit that I find this whole argument perplexing. It never occurred to me that someone was being “rude” by reclining their seat in front of me. At worst, it’s a minor inconvenience. (I’m a 6’1” man by the way.) Seats only recline two inches these days. For a seat with 28-32 inches of space, that’s only a 6-7 percent change - a small amount! And that’s two inches at the headrest level, not at the knees. At the hinge point by your knees, the change in space is clearly less than an inch - ie, less than a 3 percent change. The whole idea of it being a “burden” for the other person is psychological fantasy, not reality. People need to calm down and stop projecting their flying related stress on their seat neighbors. Live and let live.
10
You clearly fly very little. I am 5’2” —relatively compact! Yet in some planes travelling to Europe, when the person in front of me reclines, it is impossible to open my 15 inch laptop. I feel I have no option but to recline too to not feel claustrophobic.
This is a problem entirely created by the airlines greed lat squeezing in extra rows of seats. They’ve done the analysis and concluded their profit is worth our discomfort. Of course all the decision-makers only traveling first class where this is not an issue.
3
In addition to the comfort factor, there is also a safety issue. On a flight back from Europe, all three passengers in front of me had their seats reclined as far back as possible. When I needed to stand up to leave my seat, it was next to impossible to navigate the space from the window to the aisle. I kept thinking, if this were an emergency it would be chaos and the amount of time to evacuate the plane far greater with having to climb over seats. The FAA should consider safety when approving space standards inside planes.
10
The real problem is that the airlines have been cramming seats too close together and, despite justified complaints, the regulators refuse to require adequate space. This is the real problem. And all the anger expressed here should be addressed to the FAA, copying every airline.
Sidenote: The notion that there is an “unwritten rule” that passengers not recline reclinable seats unless “necessary” is absurd. But, I will say no more about that because of my first point.
6
There are those that are considerate of one another and kind, and there are those they are entitled to do anything they want that is possible to do, knowing that someone else is made uncomfortable in the process.
Sitting in the middle of two men - I can forget about having access to the armrest; sitting next to a very tall man on a train, I had his knees nearly practically in my lap. One copes. I'm afraid Ms. Williams is just not ever going to be that rational.
3
I see many posts around the idea that seats should not recline. No. There should be sufficient room on a plane such that if one reclines - it doesn't inconvenience the person behind you.
Ie, bust up the airline oligopoly. And regulate seat space such that it's actually safe to evacuate a plane - which it currently is not.
14
@andy
The airlines are an oligopy because it turns out it is a tough business and they merged and such when many went bankrupt. And flying is cheaper than it has ever been on an inflation adjusted basis. Back in the day the unwashed masses couldn't dream of flying. Now they pack the planes on basic economy tix.
1
As long as I'm paying for the seat I'll recline it as I see fit.
7
The other thing to consider is that airline seat size standards were likely set decades ago when Americans weren't nearly so fat. Given that trend is towards the ever increasing size of the average American traveller, this does not bode well. Something has got to give!
5
Time to invest in more railways, people. Trains are much more comfortable, and they are far less polluting than planes.
9
Self-righteousness on both sides of the situation. Can we please blame the people that put us in this predicament and not fight with each other?
6
It’s like when we go to a ball game and seat you choose says view may be obstructed.
Then, the question exists if he’d of done that if another man was in that seat, and not a wee man either.
7
the cheapest seats are meant for people whose bmi is normal to below normal. Everybody else has to pay extra.
2
Everyone is blaming airlines... how about blaming the customers that demand cheap tickets and then complain the seats are cheap. There are multiple classes within economy and the price surcharge is nothing like the jump to Business or First... pay up ($50 on my last trio) or shut up
3
There is a "middle seat": it's called communication (what we used to call talking). You speak to the person behind before reclining.
3
What is happening to people?
It seems to me that this points to something that is becoming rarer and rarer, simple courtesy.
She reclined her seat, yes, it is her prerogative. But sometimes it isn't about you, you you, and what you want.
Once she noticed it was a problem for the person behind her, that she was practically on his lap, it wouldn't have hurt for her to move it up to a point that it wasn't encroaching so much.
The problem would have been solved.
5
Why do the seats recline if you can't recline?
4
Another wonderful example of the horrible loss of civility in life. Both people are wrong: Ms Williams for unnecessarily inconveniencing the person behind her, and the person for acting like a child in response (although who among us has not at least once given a hard shove to the seat back of someone encroaching on our space). If you’re going to push your seat back, just do it a little or ask the person behind you to let you know if you’re creating a problem. How hard is that, Ms. Williams.
The reason air travel in the United States stinks is that our government allowed all the airlines to merge. So now with less competition they treat us like cattle and make bigger profits than before.
3
Due to lower back injury, I would be be in severe pain if forced to sit in a full upright position for very long. Expectation that I explain this to and ask permission from the person sitting behind me, whom I cannot even see from my seat, is ludicrous.
4
It is simply basic courtesy to not encroach on others' space unless you need to do so. I am 6'6" and rarely recline except on overnight flights when the norm is almost everyone doing so.
On those rare occasions when I might recline a bit (never all the way) on other flights, I always give the person behind me a heads up before doing so. This allows them to be prepared if they are on their laptop, etc.
A plane is a community space of sorts. I'd no more slam my seat back fully without warning there than I would fully recline the front seat in my car when someone is seated behind me.
67
@JBC, the space taken by the seat in front of you, including the space taken when it is in the reclined position, is what the passenger in front of you has paid for. If you book far enough in advance you can get a exit row seat that a guy you size needs.
6
@TGB
TGB, Just because you have the right to do something does not mean you should, in much the same way you shouldn't shout profanities in the middle of a public square or why you shouldn't fart in an elevator. Courtesy is vital for everyone who has to share tight spaces together.
Ok, taking your argument further-should someone who has a disability be forced to pay more? I'm not disabled, but I am 6'5", and fly somewhat frequently. Should I have to pay more? I can't control my height, but you can control whether or not your recline.
8
I am 6' 5", and I find the full upright position of airline seats too small and very uncomfortable for my lower back. So, I do the following things when I fly:
1. If available, I spend an extra $50 to $100 to purchase a seat with an extra few inches of legroom
2. I remove my shoes (I am always wearing fresh socks with clean feet), effectively taking 1 inch off the length of my lower legs. This allows them to slide forward under the seat in front of me without barking my shins. This also moves my knees lower and away from the seat back in front.
3. I tilt me seat back.
Regardless of what kind of seat I have, I have no problem with those in front of me leaning their seats back.
I suggest that those few people who are concerned about people in front of them leaning their seats back do what I do above. The seats only move maybe 3" at the top, but near nothing near the hinge point at knee level. With some seats this motion is even less since the seat bottom slides forward a bit.
We should all accept that that the space allocated to the seat in front of you includes the full distance through which the seat back moves. If you need more space, buy it.
19
I'm surprised that no one mentions the issue of sleep. Many passengers living in small towns or villages have to rise at unearthly hours to drive to the airport and go through the rigmarole of security etc. This means they get hardly any sleep the night before. They often need to work when they get to their destination. Why should they not sleep or rest because the person in back refuses to recline his/her seat?
17
When I first was flying, reclining was ALWAYS commonplace. There were RARE situations when people would get upset at a recline. An exception was during dinner.
But I think the Delta CEO advice is wrong. Either don't allow reclining seats or if you allow it, then you can't prevent someone from doing. What does it mean to "recline into somebody"?
I use a laptop when I fly and when people recline, it is very tight (and scary at times). But I agree it is their right, just as it is my right to recline. (I also have a back condition that requires me to recline and I usually fly in first class for this reason so this problem is a nonissue for me these days but I'm thinking of the time before my injury.)
Ms. Williams got it right.
14
The passengers created this problem by (in most cases) selecting the flights based almost entirely on the ticket price. The airlines just accommodate these passengers. If you want a better seat pay extra for an exit row, or premiom economy, or.... If you buy the cheapest seat do not complain that you got what you paid for.
4
I support both of these people. A person should be able to recline, and the person behind them should have enough space to have that person recline. This is the AIRLINES FAULT, completely. They have people crammed in like cattle. Now we have FAKE COMFORT DOGS biting passengers added into the mix. Just look at the NYC airport - DOGS, DOGS, DOGS, and angry fliers.
7
The tiny amount of recline that the typical economy seat provides adds virtually zero additional comfort for the person reclining, while substantially reducing the comfort of the person behind them. It makes it hard to eat, hard to use your device, etc.
What I've observed is that the people most apt to recline seem to not be regular fliers.
And to all the people who say that since the recline function is there they are justified in using it, I would point out that many aircraft still have ashtrays in the lavatories which doesn't make it OK to smoke!
4
Anyone ever get Deep Vein Thrombosis because a recliner in front refused to stay upright from Frankfurt to Detroit? I did. Not pleasant--6 days in the hospital. Airlines might consider such a situation as a legal issue.
5
you sat all the way from Frankfurt to Detroit? You must have super strong sitting muscles.
1
The Wall Street Journal published US airline satisfaction/performance rankings for 2019 in January.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-and-worst-u-s-airlines-of-2019-11579097301
American Airlines was at the bottom of the rankings.
3
What else is the CEO of Delta going to say. He and every other airline industry executive is going to say sit down and make nice while they continue making millions by cramming people in cabins like sardines in a can. Now, they don't want to take any responsibility for the mess that they created. They need to sit down and shut up. Don't believe them for one second, if they could get rid of reclining seats they would.
3
Bad enough that you have to fly American Airlines, literally the worst airline in the world, and then have to put up with this as well.
4
Two points:
1. I’m 6’ tall. I extend my legs to full length under the seat in front of me. The main problem with a reclining seat in front of me is the video screen is too close for my old eyes. I recline my seat, problem solved.
2. I fly a lot. Was Diamond on Delta. Now I’m Platinum on United. I almost always recline my seat. No one has ever complained. I must conclude that people who kick and fight back are the crazy outliers. I guess if someone did politely ask me to straighten up, I probably would.
If God intended us to fly bolt upright, He wouldn’t have given us reclining seats.
18
From a flight attendant, there is something more to this story than seat recline; but as the article is about reclining seats, passengers might want to factor that into their travel plans before purchasing their tickets.
We are tired of dealing with entitled boors! Grow up Americans.
4
This article and the Delta CEO have it all wrong.
There is no question that that man was wrong. If he was right to punch the seat in front of him, then once her seat was upright, she would have the right to punch the seat in front of her, and so on until not a single seat on the airplane had been reclined. if he was right, then everyone would do it and then it begs the question of why the seats recline in the first place.
That man purchased a seat that he knew did not recline. When anyone purchases a seat in the back row, it is clear you will not get to recline. Purchasing that seat does not give him the right to take out his poor life choices on someone else.
No one ever should ask for permission to recline. The people who chose seats that don’t recline should act like adults and live with the consequences of their own decisions.
19
When the airlines decided to reduce the distance between seats the recline of the person in the row in front went from being a small imposition to a situation where the passenger behind is practically staring at the top of the recliner’s head. The angle of recline should have been adjusted when the seats were moved closer together. The contortions required to get out of your seat if the person in front of you has reclined, or the person in front of the seat beside you has reclined, just to use the bathroom are insane. Better yet, the airlines should be required to provide adequate space between seats, which they are clearly not doing now.
The man in the video handled the situation badly, but he may not have been aware that his seat did not recline until he was on the plane. Unless I was seated in front of the emergency exit row, I would assume that my seat reclined.
12
I am 6-1 and all legs, so I am very sensitive to recliners. I personally would prefer that there be no reclining at all. Me reclining doesn't compensate for the person in front of me reclining in my lap. Since that is not happening, I think that people should take a look behind them before reclining. If the person behind you looks like they are really tall or has an infant on their lap or seems to be trying to work on a laptop, perhaps be considerate and don't recline all the way.
Also, if you are traveling with someone and one of you needs to recline and the other doesn't care, the person who needs to recline should try to sit in a seat in front of the person who will be less bothered by a recliner.
4
@Xtophers
There is no unwritten rule, that’s all in your head. In fact, airline seats recline a maximum of 2 inches on US planes, a max of 3 on the A-380. That’s DOWN from 4 inches 3 years ago. Sorry but 2 inches isn’t going to put me in your lap. By the way, when the person behind me pays for my travel, I’d have no problem not reclining, but until that happens, there is no rule written or unwritten with regards to reclining.
34
I just flew that Charlotte to NOLA route on American. I travel frequently - AA planes are really cramped. I took the JetBlue direct back to Boston and had a much more pleasant and roomy experience. The airlines should know better and I vote with my wallet avoiding AA at all costs.
When people lean seats ack and I’m trying to get work done, I politely ask them to reduce the recline. It always works.
5
Reclining is for overnight flights only. Any other time you do it, you are invading another's personal space. Isn't the legal term for that "assault?"
5
The no-recline position is intolerable and causes neck discomfort. Reclining provides the relief needed. I have had plenty of people recline in front of me. It’s not that big a deal.
12
It's called not being a baby. My no recline fee is $200 cash, otherwise I'll just ok, boomer you.
"Isn't the legal term for that "assault?""
No.
What about those people who read on red-eye flights and keep their reading lights on while everybody else is trying to fall asleep in their non-reclined seats? What shall we do with them? I am surprised nobody raised this other fundamental issue.
6
There’s something called sleep masks or eye covers, they are often given out on overnight flights.
6
They work really well! I used to depend on those things when I was a waitress and didn't get off work until 3am and had a bedroom with an east-facing window.
@Peter Not to mention those who've eaten some fancy food and feel entitled to let loose - in addition to their light, their gases invading your personal space! How dare they?
By maximizing the passenger packing density in Economy, airlines have gone on to charge larger Americans for two seats because the current seats are so small that they infringe on other passenger’s spaces. Perhaps the airlines should prove they aren’t discriminating against body size by requiring people wanting to recline to buy two seats too. /s
4
Mr. Henry Harteveldt is not flying coach. So do most CEO’s of airlines, if any. Airlines sell limited real estate. The buyer has the full right to make use of all they purchase. Yet the so called analist and CEO’s feel entitled to weigh in. Try flying coach for a year and try again is what I would suggest to them.
2
I've been a business traveler since 1985. In all those 35 years, I have NEVER had one problem with reclying my seat. Ever.
This is a non-story.
By the way- for the price I pay for my seat, I can recline anytime I want
9
Shame on that steward(was). He/she does indeed seem to have condoned his erratic and inappropriate behavior. Does not make me feel safe that anyone will be able to appropriately intervene should it be necessary.
2
@InMn
There is a possibility that there is more to the story than that the woman reclined and the man kicked the seat.
Sorry not sorry but if I have a pouch in front of me I’m putting my stuff there. If there is space in the overhead I’m storing my bag there. If the USB port works, I’m charging. And if the seat reclines, I’m using it.
17
I was recently on a British Airways flight and the only person in our section to recline was the woman in front of me. I asked politely if she would please not recline all the way. Her response, go pound salt! The flight attendant was zero help. This woman was selfish, plain and simple. This was a day time flight back to New York and I could see little justification when a fellow passenger politely requested she not recline.
I blame BA for allowing this obnoxious practice to continue. Flying is a cattle car operation from start to finish. shame on them for having zero spine to ease this situation. The same for US carriers as well, terrible corporate citizens all!
Safety and customer comfort are of little concern to BA, Unitedm and the rest, sorry to say.
5
There is an airline seat which reclines by sliding the seat cushion forward. That way, the person reclining reduces his/her own leg room and does not encracah on the space of the person behind.
8
Those seats are an abomination. The amount you slide forward is subtracted from the already highly limited legroom. I’m of average height and my knees slide right into the back pocket of the seat in front of me, jam my back and reduce my patience.
If there were an emergency landing, I wouldn’t be able to lean over and put my head between my knees. Passenger safety is a joke.
From the article: On Friday, Ms. Williams remained steadfast. “I will recline,” she wrote in a text. “It’s the airline’s job to fix the problem, not mine!”
I hope I never have to sit behind her. Or a passenger like her, with her attitude.
But maybe none of the seats should recline. Problem solved. I hope that would satisfy Ms. Williams.
14
If you want to get snotty about your space in an airplane, don’t buy the seat in the last row like this guy. I need extra space, or shall I say I like it. So I either shell out for first or business or I pay extra for the seats in coach that have extra leg room. If you’re going to buy the cheapest seat on the plan, don’t act like a child when you don’t have enough room.
And I’d like to see how this baby would have acted if it were a grown man sitting in front of him instead of a woman.
15
After something in excess of 2 1/2 million miles on commercial airlines, severe back problems, too much alpha radiation, various injuries from being hit by carry-on luggage, terrible service, unpredictable "schedules," and arrogant airline personnel, I quit flying. Highly recommended.
5
I always recline.
If there's an issue then it's for the greedy airlines to resolve.
We're bickering among ourselves because we've become so powerless. Sad
13
The only time I have ever said something to someone reclining their seat in front of me was once while a meal was being served during a flight. The person in front of me was actually going to eat their meal with their seat fully reclined! After about a minute of this I asked politely "Sir, could you place your seat upright so that I can eat my meal?" He did without comment.
1
Excuse me but why do reclining seats still exist? Flying today is nothing like the luxurious, pampered experience back in the day. Lock the seats so they don’t recline to preserve what little space we are allotted these days.
8
I am five feet tall. The seat back pushes my head forward, and if I don't recline, I end up with a very sore neck. Everyone's body is different, but the real problem is that there are too many seats in the space. It is the airlines' fault, and Wall Street's fault, for putting corporate profits ahead passenger comfort and satisfaction.
1
I can deal with the reclining seat. Just do it slowly so I have time to reposition my legs, instead of quickly reclining to the max level without hesitation.
4
The best solution, fly Jet Blue whenever possible. Seating that makes sense.
3
I can’t believe anyone would support or endorse a passenger’s bad behavior inconvenienced by a reclined seat in front of them. Sympathize, yes. Support anger and aggressiveness against the other passenger, no. The airlines are the responsible parties. Period.
From a consumer perspective, you pay for a seat: you would expect to know the type of seat you are in, whether it reclines, or not (including the seat in front of you). It’s all well defined and indicated on the airline site’s seat map. If you fly with an airline that does not pre-assign seats, or charge to ‘reserve’ a seat, then you get what you get.
I wholeheartedly do not buy into anyone blaming inconvenience, and taking out anger, on another passenger who has paid for their seat when he or she engages in reclining it as part of the airline provided seat’s function. The inconvenienced passenger should take it up with the airline, or upgrade their seat to one with more space (ie pay more).
But they should not take it out on the other passenger.
35
Individual seats are priced based on particular conveniences provided that seat in its location. If I pay for a seat on any airline, I will utilize any convenience it provides. Why should I subsidize the convenience and comfort of someone who chooses to purchase a cheaper seat or who chooses not to recline? I make sure to share armrests with the person next to me but....REALLY?
10
Not everyone "chooses" the cheaper seat. Private citizens are not yet allowed to print their own free money.
3
@Steve
You have no basis for assuming the guy in the last row had a cheap seat.
You also don't know whether the woman was just out-and-out obnoxious.
The ability to recline in a seat on an airplane is a comfort necessity. The inability to do so is because the airlines jam so many seats on today’s planes that there is not the space to accommodate this simple pleasure. I am forced to pay more to get the space I want primarily by flying first class. I have the money to do so.
@NOTATE REDMOND
The cost to fly first class is equivalent, in inflation adjusted dollars, to what it cost in 1975 to fly coach.
1
When I purchase an airline seat my purchase includes the reclinability of that seat. Period. I'm gentle about it, but that is my right as the customer.
17
How difficult would it be to design an airplane seat that pulls the seat forward as the back part tilts at an angle? I would gladly give up a little more leg room to be able to not sit in the forced hunch airplane seats inexplicably demand, and the person behind me would get *more* leg room.
4
Get rid of the business class and premium seating, except for a few for people with special needs. Put as many seats on a plane as possible. If someone sits behind, the seat should not recline. Fine airlines for filling less than 80% capacity. Make flying twice more expensive than it is today and invest heavily in clean energy. Fly less. Be a little nicer to mother earth. And be nice to each other.
1
Sorry, this neither makes sense nor is practical. if you are anywhere 6' 2" or above, coach seats ain't gonna cut it.
2
If the seats are equipped to recline, the airline is saying the passenger is entitled to do so.
When the passenger is not entitled to do so (in, or in front of, and exit row), the seats do not recline.
7
As someone with a lower back pinched nerve and previously broken neck, I need to recline the seat to avoid discomfort on short flights and pain on longer ones. Too bad if you want to use a full-sized laptop behind me. Deal with it.
10
@SRoth Too bad if you don't like me kicking your seat. Deal with it.
I agree with Ms. Williams. If airlines want to alleviate this problem, create more space. She has every to recline, as does the passenger behind her assuming he had a reclining seat.
6
If I pay for a seat that reclines, I will recline. This discussion is first world. If you want more room then buy it, otherwise it is what it is. I rather be starting a revolt on the awful food for purchase. This CEO is distracting from the REAL problem-decent sustenance on a 7 hour flight.
6
Even if there is room to recline, I prefer to sit upright. It feels better.
7
Umm, Okay that’s your prerogative....
Having recently travelled on China’s high-speed train it made me realize what a third-world the US is when it comes to spending on infrastructure/transportation and our outmoded idea that this should all come from the private sector. If I could travel in high-speed rail comfort in the US I would give up flying in a heartbeat. Alas, the US rail system will get worse and worse and our airlines will continue to consolidate and get worse and worse.
24
@Well Edited
The Chinese build most of their infrastructure during economic slow downs, they use Franklin Roosevelt’s idea of creating jobs, which created a ripple effect the manufacturing of supplies etc. It keeps people working and keeps the Chinese consumer buying which lessens the effects of the recession. Obama had shovel ready projects, republicans chose to let the people suffer, and our infrastructure crumble. We are truly becoming a third world country.
6
There is only one undisputable truth concerning reclining airplane seats. Seats can only recline as far as the specifications allow that are given to the manufacturer by the airlines. If the airlines didn’t want them to recline then that’s how they would be made.
3
Further to the story, when she reclined her seat, she spilled his drink sitting on his seat tray. I am a 5 feet 9 inch woman and I cannot even move my legs when someone reclines their seat. The seat literally hits my knees. How is this even safe if there was an emergency evacuation. I am stuck. Seats shouldn't recline at all.
13
No one is writing about this. With 4 extra inches reclining can work, as once was, maybe. Now reclining is always an affront to any full sized-adult behind. I can’t believe the entitled brattiness of those writing. Now days it’s rude to recline.
9
Try seating upright on a 6 hour flight. I guarantee your attitude will change. You also do not take into account those with back or neck issues, who need to recline e thier seat.
7
@Susan
So the recliner spilled his drink, which is why the flight attendant gave him a complimentary drink. Which means she didn't even have the curtesy to slowly recline, she jerked her seat back.
I almost never recline my seat. but the truth is sitting upright is much more comfortable for me, given my own back issues. I hate that seats cannot be reclined without infringing on the space of the person behind, but if the seat recline, you can't expect customers never to recline. This "unwritten rule" is absurd! Asking if it's okay to recline your seat before you do is certainly the considerate thing to do, but I don't think you can fault someone for not doing so. Certainly, kicking somebody's seat is completely unacceptable. This is an airline issue - if you're going to offer reclining seats, you need to make sure there's enough room to for customers to do so without ruining the flight for the passenger behind.
6
For the airlines the purpose of reclining seats is this: it shifts the center of gravity to the rear slightly, increasing fuel economy and speed. This action also decreases aerodynamic stability, which is why the seats must be upright for take off and landing.
3
@James
Slight shift. This is basic stuff in aeronautical engineering.
1
@Ron B
I’m a commercial pilot with a Ph.D.
1
@Simon
I had similar thoughts after ingesting mushrooms with traces of Psilocybin
8
the debate here shouldn't be "should you recline." the debate should be "is physical retaliation for your personal inconvenience ever ok." nope, it's not. the guy in the video deserves whatever shaming ensues for lack of self-control.
that said, airlines really ought to figure this out. take a cue from cars and most normal human chairs designed for human use. full upright is extremely unnatural and uncomfortable (and very painful in the neck for many). the seats should all have a standard relaxed recline pitch.
7
I prefer to not recline, always in a window seat, and spent 6 years traveling coast to coast with cat in carrier beneath seat in front.
Only with the cat did I have difficulties, reaching down to her, when seat in front was reclined.
Cat hated TSA but was quiet and comfortable on plane, she liked the vibe from floor and slept.
1
This problem would go away if the airlines simply stopped installing seats that recline.
8
Better yet, remove a couple of rows like it used to be 3 short years ago, 3 short years ago seats on US based carriers was 4 inch recline, today it’s 2 inches maximum. Plane manufacturers have thought about passenger comfort, not much but some.
I think this woman sat in front of me years ago. I am 6’5” tall. My knees can’t go anywhere except I to the back of a fully reclined seat. And yet she complained to the flight attendant that I was poking her in the back. I simply pointed out she could solve the problem very easily yet she wouldn’t move her seat up even a little. The flight attendant did move me to a bulkhead seat where there was no chance of a reoccurrence. A little empathy on the part of the other passenger was all that was required. She couldn’t even muster that. I have long believed that airlines should make exit rows and bulkhead seats available to anyone over 6’1 without surcharge.
8
@JRFAir
You said you think this lady sat in front of you, so your not sure who it was. The bulkhead is missing a row of seats and the emergency exit are missing a row of seats for easy egress, at 6ft 4 myself, I always try and get an emergency exit like over the wings.
The airlines get away with abusing customers because they buy politicians wholesale. The guys (and few gals) in D.C. buy economy tickets but once they get to National or Dulles they are instantly recognized and bumped up to business free of charge.
This does not count as campaign contribution (they make the rules, after all.)
So, politicians pay back the favor of flying in comfort with the pain and suffering of hoi polloi stuck in the pig sty back there.
4
I used to recline all the time, but with seats getting smaller and smaller, I started to notice few people were reclining, so I have stopped doing so myself. On the odd occasion someone in front of me reclines, I have virtually no room at all if my tray table is down and I need to work on a laptop. I am not a fan of more regulation, but I do wish the FAA would provide some minimum size requirement for seat room. It is starting to get ridiculous.
8
@Steve
Umm they do, rather they used too, the FAA by enlarge has abdicated their regulatory power back to the airlines.
I'm not making this up. When I fly now, my most recent flight being from Aspen to Washington Dulles, with a connection in Denver, I take 2.5 mg of Clonazepam. It's an anti anxiety medication. Not all at once. 1mg on the first leg and 1.5 mg on the second leg. It really takes the edge off. If a child or adult is loud, I have my bose noise reduction headphones. A life saver.
I usually select an aisle seat and just hate it when the person who has the window seat pulls the window shade down during take off!! And yes, when someone kicks the back of my seat repeatedly or the person in front reclines theirs. Last thing is when I'm sitting next to a person who is Plus Size and a portion of their torso spills over into my area. That's what flying in economy has become. So try to get used to it or fly in business class or economy plus. But don't get into an exchange with a passenger. You don't know how they're wired, and in a very confined space, an unpleasant situation will only escalate quickly. Best thing is to grin and bear it, and if you can't, ask a flight attendant to assist you with the annoyance. Again, I highly recommend the Clonazepam.
1
@David, the one thing you can do something about is the pax who pulls the window shade down during takeoff. It's FAA regulation for the window shades to be up for takeoff and landing.
@David,
You and people that drink are the ones in the way in the event of an emergency.
I, i, i .... that is all we see in these comments. What if it wasn't about you? All these self centered comments, my needs, i want to. The man from delta said it best, just ask is it ok? Simple, not that much effort, courteous, and simply following the basic decorum of living in a society. Instead we have a lady, who has no manors and simply imposes her wishes and a neanderthal who responds like a neanderthal. Both think they are in the right, both are wrong.
10
@arm19
I paid for the comforts that seat provides, this isn’t right or wrong, it’s what I paid for.....now if you ask me I may or may not accommodate you. Again it’s a personal choice since I PAID FOR MY TICKET.
@James
So that allows you to be inconsiderate towards a fellow traveler? What you paid for or not has nothing to do with it. But if you can't understand then you just don't know better and that is the problem.
Thank you for proving my point.
1
Seats should not recline, period. Flying is now akin to medieval torture. The problem? The democratization of flying. The belief that cheap flights are a right is ridiculous. The fact is flying should be more expensive. BTW I am not rich and fly infrequently. Between airports, getting to them, security, boarding and flying itself, the whole thing is just a nightmare. I pity frequent business travelers. What a hellish life.
9
Well but they do recline, if they didn’t recline. If, If was skiff, we could go for a boat ride.
I get very motion sick. Reclining really helps! I am a recliner- always.
A tempest in a teapot - at 30,000 feet at 500 miles per hour.
This is actually very funny to see the reactions of seat recliners finding out how despised they are.
20
@Jeanine I don't know - I'm surprised it's not 50/50 at all - there's a strong support for the "right the recline" if the seats allow it.
IMO, these kinds of "unwritten rules" make the process worse. Flying is so terrible these days and either airlines fix it so no seats recline or people who fly in coach should be prepared to have the seat in front of you recline. I do.
To recline a seat is pure selfishness. It is the attitude that I want my comfort and the heck with everyone else. It is obvious that if a person reclines their seat they are automatically putting the person behind them in more discomfort. The only recourse to recoup some comfort is for that person to recline their seat and the problem continues down the line.
Should the person punch the chair-no. But, what is the solution when no one will concede? What is the airlines' position on who has the ultimate authority?
6
@pat What about people with back issues who need the recline? Whose comfort goes first?
Most seats can recline. If you need more space to use your computer and just don't want the person if front of you to recline then you pay a bit more for the bulkhead seats or emergency exit seats (or business class).
And what about the armrests? Which seat can use the armrests?
4
The seats in economy recline to a very small degree. Unless the airlines want to do away with any reclining seats at all, it should be acceptable to recline as you desire. Everyone pays for their seats with its allowable use and space. If you want better conditions, pay to upgrade. Or as I tell my kids, take what you get and don't get upset.
16
@Hla3452
As i would tell you, don't recline your seat and take what you get and don't get upset. Easy to give that advice and not so easy to take.
2
@pat But the reclining is available and it is not prohibited. It's advertised as part of the plane. So I think the default right is with the recliners. "unwritten rules" are terrible ideas for high stress situations.
1
This problem is the result of airlines squeezing more seats in a limited space to add to the bottom line. Space in economy was always limited, but not like it is now. Some airlines now have seats that don’t recline at all. At some point there might have to be legislation to set a minimum size limit on seats.
8
Most coach airplane seats don’t really recline, they move to a vertical position for easier movement when boarding and exiting, and for faster egress incase of an emergency. This is why passengers are told to move their seats to the upright vertical position at takeoff and landing.
Airlines or the FAA should clarify this so passengers sitting behind, get over the notion that the person seated in front of them is reclining into “their space”, when in fact they are moving the seat into a more natural sitting position.
4
That back row can be incredibly miserable and I am only 5'6" tall and a normal width. I also had a flight where us 3 normal width people's shoulders touched the entire time.
You can't be banging on someone's seat, but you probably can't assume you can recline on the entire flight without annoying a tall adult behind you. Annoyed person behind you might not be pleasant and might be more skilled at getting the flight attendant's sympathy (And they aren't exactly making a boatload of money in a cushy job either).
Seat sizes for each airline and type of plane are published, so you can weigh your comfort (and those of your surrounding people) with price.
If you have a medical condition, might also be good to mention that on your reservation and especially to the flight attendant if there is a dispute.
2
@Innovator
Not mentioned in the article is that the recliner jerked her seat back so quickly that she spilled the guy's drink. which explains why he got a free drink.
1
This argument diverts the masses from the real problem - airlines continually make the seating space smaller to obtain more profit. The airlines have created this mess and they should be forced to fix it by giving us more room per passenger. If everyone ranting about this online flooded the airlines and Congress with complaints, the issue would soon be resolved.
9
I’ve taken hundreds of flights in the past few years, and I have never been asked by the passenger in front of me if it’s ok for them to recline their seat. Where are these ‘travel etiquette experts’ get this idea that it’s polite to ask? I would be completely shocked if the passenger in front of me twisted around in their tiny seat and managed to get my attention before reclining!
30
@Corin
I don’t ask to do something I’m already entitled to do, and since I’ve paid for the seat, whether I choose to recline or not is purely a personal decision, that I don’t need a strangers approval to do.
3
The benefit of reclining the seat is so minimal and results in inadequate space for the other person to use a laptop or comfortably read a book.
8
@Bill
Oddly I’ve never found reclined airline seats to prevent me from reading a book, or using my laptop, as you said.
1
The fault of course is with the airlines cramming people in and maximizing discomfort. I'm 6'0", and at best in economy my knees press into the seat in front. I've had people recline their seats fast and far - once suddenly the seat in front was on my chest. I've had my table down and my things dropped into my lap. I like to read when I fly, and another time I rested my forearms on the top of the seat in front with my book held over that passenger's head. He looked at me funny, I shrugged, and he realized that with his seat that far back, it was the only way I could see my book. I wish people wouldn't recline, or would limit it to an inch or two. But I really wish the airlines would stop smooshing us closer together. I only fly now if there absolutely isn't another choice, but used to love it.
7
@Grace
They are limited to 2 inches. I’m sorry but I’ve never had the seat in front of me recline to the degree that they are in my lap. And I’m 6ft 4.
1
@Grace
Trains have much more space!
1
Due to tighter accommodations, reclining seats can deprive a person to work effectively on their laptop. That’s where the frustration comes in.
5
@Mike
Tough, buy a first class seat then. As I stated in an earlier post, I’ve paid full price for that seat, and all the features it comes with, including the 2 inches of recline.
1
Here's another one - you used to be able to pick your seats on a first come, first served basis. Now you have to pay more for an aisle. Why is it so important to have an aisle? For me, it's because I have to use the bathroom a lot. But I don't think I should have to pay more for that. So if you don't want to be bothered by my getting up several times during the flight, don't pay for those aisle seats, and maybe the airlines will stop charging extra for them. And if you have to go while I am sitting in the aisle, I will happily get up and get in line behind you to go again.
5
@Franz
I cannot believe they charge more for aisle seats! Sorry.
I am a tall but slim woman that happily fits into window seat, and prefer it, to look out given my profession.
@Ivy they charge for seat selection and apparently people pay more for the aisle so you are left with what remains.
This mention of an unwritten rule is really bogus. How is anyone supposed to know of this unwritten rule? There is no rule! Who is and isn't going to follow? And the Delta person saying, "you ask if it’s OK first" - that has never happened with me or my family in all our years of travel. Has he ever sat in economy class?
I don't recline out of consideration, but I am on the receiving end a lot. And there is nothing I can do about it. The airlines provide seats that recline and if people shouldn't recline, change the seats or give people more legroom!
It is also concerning that the passenger was told to delete the video and that it was a violation of something to record. That is absolutely not true. It has been days since the incident, is the airline still "investigating"?
15
@A
There is no expectation of privacy on an airplane, they are considered public. I can stand on a street corner and record whomever, or whatever I want to, and there’s nothing they can do about it. If it were me, I would have tired my phone towards her and pushed record and asked her to repeat that statement.
2
Given the choice I always fly airlines without reclining seats. But most US carriers don’t offer it. So much for consumer choice - doesn’t really exist for this. The fees for more leg room are not possible for the vast majority of travelers.
1
Make the seats bigger. Charge more.
And don't build the seats to recline.
The next time any child or teen kicks the back of my seat more than twice I will not be nice about it.
2
I have a messed up back and recline mine just enough to not be entirely upright, maybe around 1/2 or so. If someone started punching my seat, I honestly believe there would be an actual physical fight. I'm not a threatening bad-tushy or anything, but I'm pretty sure that would cause me to snap and start swinging.
1
If we're not supposed to use the recline feature then eliminate it. As soon as those double chimes sound at 10,000 feet I gently recline my seat and I don't, nor will I, ask permission or feel guilty. I never sit so far back in coach as to be in front of the last row that doesn't recline but in that case I might try to refrain from reclining.
Not using the recline feature hurts my lower back. At home and the office I always recline and put my feet up to take pressure off of my lower back. Many feel more comfortable this way.
Last rows can recline on some aircraft. It's often up to the aircraft buyer to set the specifications. Most of the time the amount of recline is so insignificant in coach that it is hardly a burden on anybody behind--and they should chill out and recline too.
I once had a woman behind me tell me that she needed to work on her laptop and that it would be better if I didn't recline. I noted that it was going to be a six hour flight and that there was no way that I was going to sit upright all that time so I asked her how much time she would realistically need. She said one hour would be helpful so I waited an hour to recline. It was all very adult and reasonable. We had no problems.
If airlines want to avoid passenger disputes then they should curtail their horrid greed and stop ramming more and more seats on planes. Let their legacy be allowing human beings to have as much as space as free range chickens.
22
Either passengers have the right to recline or they don't. If it is the latter then the airlines:
1-should make the reclining feature inoperative and/or
2- the pilot or flight attendant should announce to all passengers that reclining is not permitted.
Failing to do either of those, the airlines are simply inviting altercations to break out and by so doing, abdicating their responsibilities to the flying public. Such behavior on the part of the airlines is outrageous!
5
It appears that most people realize that reclining is an old feature that was put into place when planes provided decent air cabins and space. Outside of an overnight flight, to recline in a modern plane is selfish and rude. Plus, it is an invitation for conflict. This is not the first news story regarding a conflict surrounding a reclined seat. I don’t recline because I’m well aware of the potential conflict and it’s increasingly viewed as rude. Also, I recall having a near panic attack on long flight when the seat in front of me was pushed all the way back and I was pinned to the wall in a window seat.
As for this story, they both did a bad job. Like a child he should have “used his words”. And this entitled woman should have stopped reclining when it was evident the passenger behind her was clearly uncomfortable. A little empathy goes a long way. She is not a victim, and I don’t feel the least bit sorry for her.
22
"Seat reclining follows an unwritten rule: You don’t do it unless you really need to.
Airplane etiquette is you only recline when necessary, and if you must recline, just put the seat back a little bit to get the comfort you need without encroaching too much on the person behind you..."
This etiquette is unwritten, to say the least, and I have never heard any airline representative ever say this before. But there's a simple solution to this problem. The airlines should just adjust the seats so that they don't recline so far back as to intrude unreasonably on any passengers. In the meantime, they're providing no guidance at all, setting people up for these kinds of conflicts, and then claiming no responsibility.
9
It is 50%-50% both passenger's fault and 100% the airline industry's fault and 1,000% the FAA's fault for allowing such dangerous situations to exist on airplanes - from passenger rage to slow to evacuate planes - all to cater to the profiteers.
Regulations on reasonable seat size would create a level playing field for all competitors to compete. Unfortunately capitalists hate competition and anything that restrict them from cheating for a buck.
“We encourage our customers to be respectful of each other,” is rich as airlines profit by disrespecting it's customers by providing them with overpriced child seats.
Like the trump, there is no line airlines will not cross to abuse their customers to make another buck and inflict another revenue stream on them. This is American style capitalism at work.
Government needs to step in and end these cruel corporate pranks on its customers for profit. At what point will air travel resemble strap-hangers traveling on a subway at rush hour? Because it is coming!
I'm so grateful to be early retired and not have to fly Oppressive-Air for work, humiliate myself at security checkpoints and inordinate waste of time. I now travel for pleasure which means I avoid flying like the plague it has become.
1
The chief executive for Delta Air Lines said. “The proper thing to do is, if you’re going to recline into somebody, you ask if it’s OK first.”
I never seen it happen and there is a good reason: it's impossible to turn around in an economy seat and talk over the high back. You'd have to get into the aisle to ask and the answer you would get is "NO."
I reckon the CEO of Delta only rides in 1st or Business and never has to worry about the seat in front of him being in his face.
9
@Svirchev The CEO for Delta is giving a non-answer. What if the other person says no?
1
The airlines are 100% to blame for this problem, shame on them. Charge me more, reduce the number of seats and create more space and comfort for everyone. That's not so good for the environment if it creates the need for more flights but then again, maybe people will fly less if it costs more, so it could be a win-win. The angry passenger understandably misdirected his anger to the woman in front of him instead of to the airline. He'd be better off enticing his fellow passenger to put her seat back forward by offering to buy her a glass of wine and then writing a scathing letter to the airline.
2
Anyone who buys a seat on an airline has the right to recline it and shouldn’t have to ask if s/he may. I would consider it more than a little rude or entitled if someone asked me not to recline my seat.
As it happens i don’t usually recline my seat, but if i want to I will, no permission needed. Likewise if the passenger in front of me wants do, more power to them.
7
WHY is there no blame focused on the airline? I'm 6 feet tall, and a bit more than average of my height is in my legs, and I really can't help it if my knees press into the seat-back when the person in front of me reclines. It's really getting hard to find airlines that actually have seats I can fit in. (And I'm increasingly finding planes where the seats don't recline at all, a really awful answer to this problem.)
1
I like the seats some trans pacific flights have where to recline your seat bottom slides forward. The seat backs never move for the person behind you. That way if you choose to sacrifice legroom to recline it’s your sacrifice and not the person behind you.
10
Just wait for the long talked about non-seat! Seats that having you standing, that you lean into, barely seats. Doubt they’ll recline.
Frankly, given the ungraciousness of some comments here, the sense of entitlement, and “don’t care” whether others need space to work or eat, I hope the airlines do away with the recline function. I don’t want to witness or get in a fight at 30000 feet. The airlines have pitted us against each other, ever in search of growth and profit over passengers’ comfort. It is such a tiresome situation.
5
I only recline if the person in front of me does, so that I don’t feel too enclosed. I think it’s obvious that one should recline slowly, and not suddenly slam it back, which just seems obnoxious.
3
The airlines will be selling reclining seats and bathroom tokens in the next year. Any chance to make an extra dollar.
2
I always recline. once we take off I recline and fall asleep. The seats were made for that.
3
I recently flew coach on a budget airline and sat next to an obese gentleman who spilled over onto my space. It was a completely booked flight. I did not feel comfortable or safe but I was afraid that the attendant would throw me off the plane since there were no other seats. After hearing this story my fears are confirmed. This woman was assaulted and should have contacted the police upon landing.
3
Seems like Southwest seats recline back about 2 inches :-/
1
If all those not traveling for business or due to an emergency would just not travel for 12 months I would wager that the airlines would solve this problem. Delta just gave each of their employees a nearly 20% bonus. Airlines are in the black and don't care if you're comfortable or not. I flew for business for 40 years so I greatly sympathize with those having to travel these days. Me? Now that we are retired if we can't fly upfront we just stay at home.
2
Airline profit greed. Plain. (no pun intended).
I wonder if there is an "unwritten code" for battery hens?
3
Easy solution. Reclining is fine on long haul flights, say anything over 6 hours, or any late flights where you need to sleep. On short flights, it's not necessary but isn't worth acting like a Neanderthal. The people who get upset about reclining are only upsetting themselves. It's really not a big deal.
2
I put on headphones and go to sleep; go ahead and recline!
1
If the seats are made to recline then recline away. Those who object, fly private. Can't afford that, then shut up.
Also, let's be honest, the amount of recline in an airliner seat is what, about an inch?
3
This one of the (many) reasons why I simply refuse to fly anymore.
2
Looks like the man objecting to the reclined seat is in a row where the seats cannot recline. Perhaps he needs to pay attention to this when next he flies.
4
@Norah
So Norah, you take that seat and see how you like it.
It’s amazing what cramming an extra row or two of seats into a plane can do to our sense of humanity. Guess no one brought that up in the boardroom though.
10
I’ve only flown Southwest lately but I have never been bothered by someone reclining their seats in front of me and I’m 6’ tall, so I assume the person behind me wouldn’t be bothered as well.
13
@David Belz I agree if we are talking about short flights, but what about those of us flying internationally? My last flight was 16 hours.
As someone who has traveled frequently on long distance buses in Central America, South America, Asia and Southern Africa for periods of time that often exceed even that of transcontinental USA flights - and on seats which sometimes recline as much as 150 degrees - I find the degree of passenger acrimony on flights rather difficult to fathom.
5
I crossed the Atlantic on a troop ship in 1965. The bunks were five high under an 8- or 9-foot "overhead" (ceiling). It was hard to get in, and if I turned over, my shoulder rubbed against the bunk above me. It was more comfortable than flying is nowadays.
15
Wouldn’t have been an issue when flying was designed for passenger comfort and safety. There was plenty of room back in the day! Now it’s such an ordeal, I’ve long since given up flying. Do we really need to be crammed into tiny seats for hours at a time? I don’t think so!
8
I've lived outside the U.S. for 20 years, during which time the whole "to recline or not to recline" debate was ignited. I still can't quite understand the debate. I have travelled extensively across Asia & Europe, and never once encountered a situation where passengers were expected NOT to recline, or expected to ask first, or actually fought over reclining. The seats recline. Everyone reclines. I am talking one-hour flights, and I am talking 12-hour flights. Maybe this is an issue because seat space is more limited in the U.S. I will have to bring my measuring tape next time. But if you happen to sit in front of me during my next trip to the U.S, please - recline if you wish. And don't wake me up to ask first.
27
Not everyone reclines. I do not, mostly out of consideration for the person behind me.
13
Airline pack in as many people as possible in an effort to maximize profit and fight for market share with low fare prices.
Translation:
Passengers get what they pay for.
3
I recline my seat without asking. And I never hold doors for people or say thank you. I don’t get out of the way for people entering the elevator or subway. I don’t yield right of way. I cut lines and stay at a restaurant table for hours even if people are waiting. I leave hotel rooms a shambles and never tip. I paid my money, why should I care about other people and their comfort? What’s in it for me?
19
Your attempt at analogy completely misses the mark. The seats recline for a reason & everyone has a right to make use of the feature. If someone doesn't want to sit behind a person who might use his or her seat as it's intended, that person should buy a front seat - or not fly.
12
Her attitude exactly.
@Rick
In the words of the immortal Rutger Hauer in 'Bladerunner':
"That's the spirit!"
The simple observation is that the airlines have created this situation out of the need for profit and the users are supposed to fight it out.
Why not airlines eliminate one or two rows, distribute the space savings to the other thirty rows, and increase the fares the proportionate amount? Then maybe we can avoid the conflict. For that matter, where do the airlines get the idea that with the minimal space allotted cattle travel is acceptable?
7
Exactly right. The fight should not be between passengers - reclining and reclined on - but between passengers and the airlines. It is their unconscionable treatment of passengers that lead to these fights. The solution is simple: more legroom. Sure, the airlines might make a couple billion less, but they’ll be fine.
Oh, and why we are at it, enforce our anti-trust laws! If you want the market to fix this problem, more airlines will mean more competition and more ways to compete. Imagine if we had an airline or two that competed on good customer service - that would be something worth an NYT article.
4
American tried that maybe 20 years ago. It was a dismal failure. People wouldn’t pay extra for the extra room as other airlines with more seats on their planes could charge less.
Now at least we have a hybrid where you can pay extra for more legroom in part of the plane.
Just do away with reclining seats in economy class. There's not enough room as it is... why set up a situation where these kinds of conflict are bound to occur? If you want the extra room buy a higher class ticket.
31
The idea that we shouldn’t recline our seat, and be socially snubbed if we do, is insane.
We pay hundreds of dollars for a ticket - it is appropriate to do recline our seat if we choose to do so.
I am thoughtful and sensitive to societal decencies - this concept is legitimately blasphemous.
Airlines should create seats that are comfortable and spatially appropriate- the onus should not be on the passenger to mitigate the discomfort that the airline forces.
23
If you want to recline your seat...go first class..it’s what I do..otherwise it’s rude.
Empathetic people care about others.
I have not flown in 7 years. And I hope to never fly again. What the airline industry has done over the years squeezing people into smaller and tighter spaces to rack up profits is unconscionable. Besides the decreased comfort issue there is the safety factor if there was ever a need to exit in an emergency. I remember the days flying pre-9/11 so I guess I am spoiled. With that said, no more flying for me. A lot would have to change before I get on a plane again.
3
My opinion: Yes. If the seat reclines, people have the right to recline and don’t need to ask for permission. It IS the airlines responsibility to make sure there is enough room for the passengers. There is no way I am going to be sitting on a long flight without reclining or getting up out of my seat to stand or move about. My body isn’t young anymore.
I have had others recline their seats, cutting off my space but it isn’t the passengers fault there is too little space, the airlines need to fix the problem.
I think the airline employee was wrong to scold the passenger whose seat was getting punched.
29
I love how the airline execs are authorities. They design extremely cramped (inhumane someone on FB said) interiors, then expect passengers to put up with it and not recline. Since when does anyone stand up, turn around, and ask the person behind, "is it ok if I recline?" Who made that up? The airline CEO who flies first class? In this case, the man behind was clearly in the wrong. And the airline was in the wrong for givng the notice to the woman for using the seat that they installed, in the space they installed it, in a way it was designed to be used.
43
My husband travels often for business and always complains about fellow passengers who are not experienced and too self-centered to be proper cabin-mates.
You (all passengers) are in this cramped space together for the duration of the flight; just be decent and fairly considerate and everyone will have a more pleasant flight. And no one will be arrested when you land.
Reclining: Don't, unless you must in order to sleep or to avoid extreme physical discomfort. Turn and ask the person behind you for permission before you do. Then they can get their head/liquids on tray/knees out of harm's way before you make your move. Only recline the minimum necessary to meet your needs, and always for just the period of time you need it.
19
For me, reclining the seatback is necessary to make the seat even tolerable on any flight longer than an hour.
How did so many people get the notion that reclining the seat back is rude? If no one should be reclining, why do the seats recline at all?
23
If the seat is capable of reclining, then it's OK to use the feature. I don't see why there is any debate. If reclining is not to be allowed, then the airlines should install seats that can't be reclined.
Given all that, flying Steerage is horrible. But people want to be able to go coast-to-coast for $300 bucks. They get what they pay for.
I'm 6'4" tall. 20 years ago, I could be at least somewhat comfortable in Coach. Now it really is more like Steerage. People back there are basically self-loading cargo. The blame falls not only on the airlines, but on the people who buy tickets based on low price alone. I swear, if airlines offered "Standing Room" class, somebody would buy it. Then they'd complain about how uncomfortable it is.
I skip the latest smartphone and buy a Premium or First Class ticket.
6
I recline. I paid full price.
9
By this time it should be clear that the airlines now engage in a relentless pursuit of... PROFIT! They do not care about passengers, other than finding ways to extort more $ from them for amenities that used to be free.
We can expect that as seat pitch continues to be reduced, more passenger fights will ensue and the airlines are likely to sell tickets and rent fighting gear.
1
Yes. A film production using ‘The Hunger Games’ model. We need a good title but it certainly won’t be ‘Musical Chairs’ .
So many comments about packing seat in, which is expected on most airlines. What is not expected is that a perturbed passenger seemingly has the right to punch another passenger's eat for manipulating a seat as it was designed to do. Then, the airline has the gall to ask the passenger who is documenting the poor behavior to delete the video.
This seems like rewarding the poorly behaved passenger and punishing the victim. Surely,there must be some missing information.
17
I’m sorry - the idea is we should *not* recline in a reclining seat? I know I’m echoing what others have said here. Whether one is tall, or injured, or what have you - is really beside the point. It seems no one needs to justify using a feature that is provided. Full stop.
22
I never realized it was wrong to recline your seat. I thought if it reclines it is allowable. That the airlines had studied the maximum amount a seat could recline without causing a problem with the passenger behind. I don’t recline because I’m sensitive to invading anyone else’s space. However, this man clearly abused her right to do so. This is outrageous and I’m thrilled he has been physically identified. Shame on American. And her fare should be refunded, including a gift voucher for her next round trip. I try to only fly Delta and have never had a problem. 23 and Me would clearly find a connection between this guy and the trumps.
6
Took a few flights on Cathay Pacific and they had it right. Seat backs don’t recline, instead the seat bottom slides forward. So each person decides for themself whether to sit upright, or to “recline” and give up a little of their own space, or at least reconfigure it, with no impact on any other passenger.
80
I mostly fly First domestically and even then I do not recline as domestic first seats on any airline has gotten more confining.
The woman in this case should have put her seat in upright position but the man should have been warned to stop the antics!
If you’re going to recline pay-up to first or don’t recline at all.
5
Upright seats cause my back and neck to spasm. Reclining, at least slightly, eases the spasm and the pain. The airlines should offer Flexeril along with tepid ginger ale and bad coffee.
I can understand the dismay of the passenger who could not recline in the rear of the plane to get out of the way of the passenger who did. I can't understand attacking the seat, unless he asked politely for more room and was rebuffed rudely.
But let's be real here. The problem is that the seats are too narrow, that there is no legroom, and that the space between two rows is too short to adjust seats to suit spines. It is amazing that airlines haven't figured out a way to stack passengers like logs. At least the cabin is not filled with livestock as well.
The industry leaders are essentially saying that passengers are cargo, and the cargo stay where it is stowed and shut up.
4
Here's an idea, all seats ONLY recline, let everyone lean back and it is not adjustable. I personally have serious back and hip issues with sitting, that being said I never recline. It is rude. I do get an aisle seat and just stand up and move when I have to. If I can't get an aisle seat then I don't choose that flight.
4
When I sit in my seat I remind the person in front of me before takeoff to be mindful of me behind him/her. it's been very successful. I never recline my seat even on long flights.
1
This problem is the avarice of the airlines, not the passengers. Seat space is inadequate and should be expanded. The FAA should require adequate seat space as a safety measure. Passengers are terribly uncomfortable and stressed. No wonder issues like this present.
9
First, shame on American Airlines and all the airlines that create such a stressed, combative experience for their coach passengers. Next, if you choose to recline your seat, PUT IT BACK UP WHEN YOU LEAVE YOUR SEAT. And if you are reclining, RAISE YOUR SEAT WHILE YOU EAT. Simple. For advanced learners, when exiting your row, PUSH against your seat to rise, instead of pulling on the front seat.
4
This is entirely the airlines' fault--their greed and contempt for the passengers. It didn't used to be like this. Passengers should not pitted against each other. The airlines should restore decent, civilized seating and stop trying to maximize every dollar out of the helpless
4
Unless the guy behind me is paying for my seat, I will recline. The seats weren't made for anyone about 5'8" tall.
6
If I’m the one behind you, good luck trying to recline. I’m 6'4“ and my knees will be up against the back of your seat no matter what you hope for. On the bright side, perhaps the crew can move you to a different seat.
6
There's a good solution I've experienced on some planes - your seat moves forward a bit when you recline the back. You get the recline but you lose some knee room in return. The person behind you doesn't get squeezed due to your choice. It's actually more comfortable when the person in front of you reclines (you get more leg room), so you can always bribe them with food or a drink to get them to recline for you!
13
4) On all flights, we sit upright, and on this flight we all recline. It's the Passover solution.
1
I suppose the person reclining in the seat ahead of you would suggest that if you want more room you should fly business class or 1st class.
1
You should pay for what you get. I paid for a seat that reclines. You should pay for extra legroom if you want that.
I seriously cannot understand how something so simple could be so difficult for some people: pay for what you get.
9
Oh. You want me to pay more because God made me tall. Being tall and long-legged was not my choice.
2
Why did this article leave out a key fact? The man who was upset was in the last row, and so his own seat does not recline. This creates a unique scenario, for he literally is left with less room than anyone else on the flight. Certainly I’m not justifying his behavior (or hers for not being polite) but why is this article framing the story as “recline or not recline?” That’s NOT the question.
11
Yes, it is the question. The person bought a seat that reclined. It's not his fault the person behind him did not have such a seat. Anyone with a reclining seat has an absolute right to use it. If you don't like that, travel 1st class, or don't fly.
6
The tiny angle of recline in airline seats is too small to affect the person sitting behind. Really the seat-back moves maybe four inches!
Sitting bolt upright is extremely uncomfortable.
Since jerks seem to think they are entitled to pound on the reclined seat, the only solution is to have built-in recline (something greater than a 90-degree angle) and fixed seats.
We don't know how she reclined or if she provoked him intentionally or accidentally. That she reclined is not in dispute, nor is it prohibited nor unexpected. The jerk who punched her seat is in the wrong.
Sometimes you get lucky and the seat next to you is empty. It's rare, but still happens. Sometimes the person in front of you reclines. Sometimes that person doesn't recline but bounces the seat to "music." Sometimes the person next to you leaves the light on or snores or watches violent movies. Sometimes you get room for your carry-on. Sometimes a baby cries in your cabin. Sometimes a busybody attempts unwelcome conversation. Sometimes the person next to you is quite overweight or smells. Sometimes the flight attendants are lovely.
I hope for politeness, but based on experience, I expect people to be jerks. Whatever happened to manners? You don't have a right to more than what you paid for. The seat in front of you reclines and the person in it may wish or need to recline. If that bothers you, try politeness as one of the other commenters did and ended up sharing a taxi. If you recline, do it gently. Be considerate. It's what adults do.
If you cannot handle being cramped, fly first class. Book earlier, pay more and choose a preferred seat. Sometimes you just don't get lucky--even in first class. But no matter what, you are never justified in banging the seat in front of you or throwing a temper tantrum. It's what 2-year-olds do when they don't get what they want.
4
First class is hugely beyond the means of most people flying. This is a classic “let them eat cake” response. One of the problems I have with people reclining more than a little bit in front of me is that I find it almost impossible to stand up if I need to go to the restroom. If I need to grab on to their seat to get some leverage to do so, I typically get a dirty look. At 73, I’m pretty much ready to give up traveling. I live in NYC and haven’t owned a car for almost 12 years, and am reluctant now to travel anywhere that I’d need to drive.
3
I’m 6’4, 240 lbs. I wear a 36” inseam. I have long legs. Not YOUR problem, I get it. But let’s not make it yours. When I sit in an airline seat my kness are snug against the seat in front of me. The person in front of me can not recline their seat without causing me a great deal of pain. Especially when it’s done without notice.
I never recline my seat. Probably because I’m aware of how little room there is and how annoying it can be. But should you be seated in front of me, you might want to reconsider trying to recline your seat.
I’ve recently been flying Frontier Airlines - they have planes with newer seats. Less cushioned, less comfortable, knees still smushed against the seat in front of me. BUT! The seats don’t recline!!!
Funny the little things you appreciate any more.
6
That’s me, too. We are not made the way we are by choice.
2
OMG. Recline away. Reclining has been around for years. Though the geometry and space issues have changed. I see it as part of the pathetic “comfort” features of my trip. Are passengers really expecting comfort? It is an endurance test, that we are charged for. Many need to recline! Do we need a letter from our orthopedist to allow this? If the seat reclines it is a tacit acknowledgment that it is part of the amenities I have access to. If someone bangs on my seat, then I am going to ask politely to knock it off. If they grab my seat - along with a hunk of my hair - to stand up, they will be told so.. they do it again and I will be much less polite.
It’s an airplane flight.......reclining is part of the ticket. Everyone sit back, recline if you want and endure, unless harassed.
5
How about less greed? How about a seat that reclines to a restful, comfortable position like in the old days? Especially on long flights.
It used to be that you could recline the seats and there was still room for the person behind you.
1
I wish they would not allow reclining. I’m 6’4” with very long legs. The comfort of your reclining makes my flight miserable. My reclining doesn’t remedy the problem. If you want more room, purchase business or 1st class.
39
No, if YOU want more room, purchase business or 1st class!
17
To assure you have adequate legroom, you could purchase a first class seat, too, right? You probably don’t for the same reason the people who recline their seats do not — the airlines charge a fortune for a humane amount of space. We should direct our protests at the airlines, not other passengers.
7
@Todd I’m sorry that your 6’4” frame makes you uncomfortable on flights. Sounds like *you* should be the one to pay the extra money for the extra comfort. The person in front of you paid what they chose for the comfort (albeit pathetic) they expected, which includes reclining their seat.
8
Quit blaming the Airlines for another passenger's thoughtlessness and anger.
10
The airlines are to blame. There used to be plenty of room to recline in coach. The airlines are cramming people too close together. The lack of legroom and the decrease in aisle width make it hard to empty the plane quickly and safely even while parked at the runway.
I know, because my foot was injured getting off a plane. There was not enough room in the aisle for everyone's feet at once, so someone stepped on mine. Crutches for two weeks.
Imagine trying to get everyone out of that plane in an emergency.
Something has to happen here, or the next viral video could be much worse than a guy punching a seat.
2
American Airlines literally has the smallest seats on earth like ridiculously so, I feel for this guy.
7
I watched the video; does anyone think the male passenger would have behaved the way he did if Ms. Williams had been anyone besides a middle-aged white woman traveling alone?
On the other hand, calling his actions "assault" is absurd. He was just being a punk, and in a society where personal dignity had any importance, the scorn of his fellow passengers would have been punishment enough.
27
@Patrick
Really? White women are always listened to ("believe all women" applies only to them) and given the benefit of the doubt.
I never recline my seat even when the person in front of me has reclined their seat. Of course I am in economy. And though I really want to ask the passenger in front of me not to recline, I just can't. I am embarrassed to do so. But I also don't want to make the person behind me uncomfortable. The airlines have put passengers in this unnecessary predicament. There are simple solutions to this problem. If the seats were locked in place no one could recline. Airlines should just be honest, list the seat pitch and seat width on their website, along with the extra baggage fees and extra legroom fees and let the public and market forces decide.
305
Completely agree, thanks.
7
@Leslie Sullivan
The airlines do list all these info on their websites.
1
@Leslie Sullivan This is all the fault of the airlines. They should either remove one or more rows of seats so that passengers have room to recline with jamming into the passenger behind them or install seats which do not recline.
14
To me this is just an example of passengers behaving predictably, if not necessarily good or bad. Some people will recline, some won't. Some will feel aggrieved by the person in front reclining, some will figure out how to adjust. Some will have had a bad day, some not. And so it's really just an odds game as to when you're going get a combination that turns into a situation like this. But clearly it has happened, and will happen again. I suppose you can argue until you're blue in the face about whether he was right or she was wrong or whatever, but to me that's a bit of a red herring -- on aggregate, this is just how people are wired and air travel forces people into these circumstances where they behave in these predictable manners. I don't think you can change that.
All this should be known to the airlines, and so to continue to allow the conditions that cause people to respond in this fashion this places the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the airlines. Clearly they're aware of it, as it seems that offering free drinks is the current solution to smooth over the fact that they know these situations will come up from time to time. This doesn't seem terribly sustainable. As others have pointed out, monetizing the recline seems a good start. The transactions and boundaries might be clearer.
7
Everyone needs to be wealthy and fly first-class. Better yet is suite class, e.g., Singapore Airlines and others and enjoy your own appartment with unlimited Champagne and caviar. It is the America way of delineating social class and status. While boarding the airplane coach passengers pass through first class and whimper in anticipation of the miserable, claustrophobic experience they will endure and glare and sneer at the nonchalant wealthy. However, someone must symbolize the American dream to inspire the non-wealthy to work harder, smarter and save. The reclining seat dilemma is a drama well-crafted for the political times of the aspiring-class of belligerent types. Otherwise, admit your fate and be nice and not recline. The frequent flyer upgrade game is running out of rope as airline cash flow is once again king. Airline cabin crews are not going to solve this problem, and as such, most inconsiderate types need to take a bus or stay in their cave.
6
@terry brady You are so correct! The USA class struggle in a microcosm - the reclinable airplane seat.How long will the people put up with it?
My last flight I felt extremely claustrophobic. The screen was too close. It took me a lot of deep breathing not to panic.
6
For me, the "who's elbow gets the armrest real estate" is a much more "pressing" issue.
For both space issues, each traveler has a right to an opinion. However, none has the right to decide the behavioral norm for all passengers. So how can we tell what the acceptable norm is?
On any flight, we'll see a large minority if not a majority with the seat reclined. So it's pretty clear that reclining is within behavioral norms, regardless of whether any given individual likes it or not. It will remain so unless some outside authority makes a change.
Harassing others by intentionally knocking on their seat is observed much less frequently. We can conclude it is not within acceptable norms. I'd prefer airlines try to address that type of incivility.
18
@Ben
Window and aisle seats each get the unshared armrest; middle seat can choose either armrest, after all that person is sitting in the middle seat.
4
@Lynn in DC I agree, but that’s just the norms we share. Same analysis applies as above.
Once, tragically, I ended up in the middle when an overweight couple had intentionally booked aisle and window because they didn’t fit next to each other. One of the reddest red eye flights I can remember. At least it was a soft squishing.
5
In China some of the long-distance buses have bunks instead of seats. They're not made for my build (6' 2), but that trip was the only time I've ever been able to sleep on a bus. Wouldn't work on a plane? I don't know, but for sure I'd pay extra.
4
The two appear to have met along with clear unusual persistent self-regulations - the recliner who tolerates bump after bump and the belligerent who punches steadily, effortlessly, again and again. They are both strange but one was clearly anticipatory for a payout.
1
I once got in a dispute with a woman in front of me because she reclined her seat all the way during take-off. She and her husband were occupying all three seats in their row (there was no one in the middle seat). So she already had more space than me. I did actually push her seat up because, as I told her, I was concerned about safety during take off. She mocked me, imitating the tone of my voice etc. like a second-grade bully, and I discovered both she and her husband were very drunk (this was a morning flight). To not get into a tussle with two very drunk people in the air, I profusely apologized and suffered the rest of the flight. Luckily (it would seem) no flight attendants were called, since this was also American Airlines.
I think bars in airports are a bad idea. Having a glass of something on a long flight is one thing, but how many folks do you see hanging out in the airport bar, even in the morning?
16
I'm in my sixties and have been flying ever since I can remember. I don't get what the big deal is. In my experience, it has always been OK to recline, and I've never been annoyed by someone reclining in front of me. But common courtesy should prevail. At least it did in the 20th century. People used to be able to resolve a difference of opinion. Social media has turned everyone into a cretin. I know, I know, "OK boomer."
39
It’s all about greed & profiteering @ perils of their customers who fly with them. Why in the world regulating government agencies like FAA let the carriers reduce space between rows and seats sinking in size,perhaps still in practice today. That’s how CEOs pockets millions in salaries & bonuses while the flyers needs to suffer.
4
It was a relatively short flight and the rows in coach are too close together. It’s rude to recline your seat in these situations.
The passenger behind should not have punched the seat. But she started the incident by reclining her seat.
Yes, the airlines should do more to minimize this problem, but that doesn’t excuse the woman’s call for common courtesy.
If SHE wants more space, SHE should be the one to pay the extra cost for a row with more space.
9
I don’t understand this at all. The seats are made to recline. She paid for a seat and reclined it. Seats are not made to be punching bags for an immature folks with no self control. He’s the one who should pay extra if he wants extra room.
6
She is not “start the incident by reclining her seat.” Reclining is normal. The guys reaction was just him being an self absorbed spoiled brat.
1
First of all I generally do not recline my seat. That being said, if the unspoken "rule" is do not recline unless absolutely necessary, and the airline obviously sided with the person behind the seat being reclined, then why do they even have seats that recline? the outrage should be focused on the airlines, who due to greed have made the space available to passengers completely unacceptable. Luckily I am 5 feet tall, and even in the compressed spaces I can usually fit - although I have been on planes where even my knees were hitting the seat in front of me. Airlines should be the target of passenger's ire - not someone who reclines a seat that was designed to do exactly that.
21
Mr. Bastian: No, it is not up to passengers to negotiate this. One is either allowed to recline or not allowed to recline. You decide and make clear the rules.
34
Here is a revolutionary thought, treat customers well. Make more space available to each seat.
Sadly, won't happen.
If it weren't because of needing to see family is never get on a plane again, it had become a horrible experience all around.
3
Trains. More trains. And for international flights no reclining seats. Problem(s) solved.
8
The seat may belong to the traveler, but the space behind it belongs to the person sitting in that row. If you put your seat back, it is in my space. The top of your seat is in my face. If there is a TV screen there, you are ruining my view. I see people spreading out as much as they can by putting the seat back asap. They also man-spread. The airlines can cause a lot less air-rage if they disable the seats' mechanism. There is very little room allotted in the confines of the airplane without some people usurping more. I never put my own seat back, even on a night flights because I personally hate it so much when done to me. Those who put their seat back in my face, will find my need to rummage through the seat pocket, use and stow my tray table many times, and my foot in the back of their seat. You are in my space.
37
Nonsense, if the seat reclines, the person can recline. Period. Any argument to the contrary is completely illogical.
4
I pay for a reclining seat, I expect to be able to recline. That doesn't mean I do it during mealtime or that I slap it back as fast and hard as I can. If the person behind is annoyed (been there), that's the price for the cheap seats.
30
Wrong. Even expensive seats have no room. My hubby is 6’5” and slender. When someone reclines into him he politely asks them to return the seat to normal. So far the few recliners have done it. If they didn’t he’d just have to go stand in the back by the bathrooms the whole flight I guess. And don’t tell us to pay hundreds of dollars more for first class. That’s ridiculous.
17
@Meg I understand. My son is 6'6" and flying is agony for him. But these are special cases.
1
If you are dry tall then pay for the seats with extra leg room. Every flight has them. Don’t whine if you aren’t willing to pay. And I recline if I want to. Period.
I dislike reclining seats ever since I had the unpleasant view of a balding dandruff unwashed scalp for most of my flight.
While my preference is for airlines to set comfort standards and charge accordingly for seats, another possible solution would be to allow only the window and middle seats to recline and the aisle seats to stay upright. That way you know when you book an aisle seat that they can’t recline and your knee space will be protected. Just a thought.
16
“...the chief executive for Delta Air Lines, appeared to agree with the unwritten rule of the skies. “The proper thing to do is, if you’re going to recline into somebody, you ask if it’s OK first”.” If the airlines are serious about this, they should own it by announcing it pre-flight. And when selling seats they should asterisk the advertised ability to recline* (*if acceptable to the person behind you). Instead they seem to want it both ways.
33
Airline seats are not designed for people over 5'8" and I have to recline my seat somewhat to have any kind of reasonable posture and back support. This is entirely on the airlines. It's your right to put your seat back; if you want to go the extra mile, be kind and keep the seat upright during mealtimes or if the person behind you needs to work on a laptop. (They are probably not doing any important work, though.)
7
@Ian thinks "They are probably not doing any important work, though", and he would be wrong.
4
It's never the tall passengers (who actually need the space) who recline immediately. People like Ms Williams have no need to recline, yet have no consideration for others.
1
I’m surprised that there is not more outrage at the airlines rather than the other passengers. Air travel reminds me of the tests done decades ago when scientists used to put many rats into a small cage. The rats became aggressive and attacked each other.
Flying was fun years ago. Then it became increasingly uncomfortable and crowded. Now we are crammed into poorly designed small seat arrangements and, according to protocol experts, are expected to not utilize the functions of the designed airplane seat. I’m average height with a neck injury. Therefore, my head is pushed forward by the seat design and it is painful. I also understand and sympathize with others that if I were tall then my knees would be hitting the seat in front of me. How is any of this acceptable?
Sadly, for the environment and my pocketbook, my solution to avoid what I consider a tortuous situation is to upgrade. In addition, I avoid flying whenever possible. However, there solutions are not solutions at all and the situation is only getting worse. Perhaps if we all stopped flying the airlines would finally take notice and fix the problem that they created.
Kim.
23
So the airline puts reclining seats on the plane, and then treat you like a criminal when you use it? The imaginary etiquette "rule" your expert conjured from fantasy land is NOT the traditional etiquette rule, which was that one can decline once the plane has taken off and the seat belt sign is turned off, and that when food was served (remember those days?) seats were put in the upright position in order to facilitate people using the tray tables. Then, when the seat belt sign goes on in preparation for landing, seats are put in the upright position -- and flight attendants STILL go through the cabin at that point to make sure everyone adjusts their seats.
If you think the seat in front of you is reclining too deeply into "your space," complain to the airline about its architecture policy, not the person in front of you who paid a small fortune and wants to get as comfortable as the cramped quarters allow.
People, become adults!
68
Not all aircraft are created equal, so some awareness of one’s surroundings is appropriate here. In some planes, you really are impairing your neighbor behind you if you recline. I have been in circumstances where my tray table has been rendered inoperable by a reclining person.
As a tall person, I know how it feels when it’s done to me, so I almost never recline if I am in coach.
But if somebody reclines into my knees, I will be sure that they know they have done so. If they understand my discomfort, so much the better.
6
As long as people pay money to be treated like cattle, the airlines have zero incentive to improve things. When those seats go unfilled, maybe they'll do something. Until then, I will continue to travel infrequently and upgrade to a seat with more space. Yeah, it costs more money but as the saying goes, I'm worth it.
6
I don't remember any economy seats that decline more than 2-3 inches in the past 20 years.
3
The 3 extra inches of recline are my space. If the person behind me needs more space, he can recline his seat; it’s his space. Problem solved. Airline seats are the most uncomfortable, spine-wrenching seats I’ve ever sat in, and I’ve ridden in a Yugo and a donkey cart. Sitting upright, with one’s head and neck tipped forward is excruciating. I simply do not fly airlines (like Evil Spirit) or sit in exit rows with fixed seats. Making those choices means I might pay more but I do so just to avoid a small measure of the pain of air travel.
I’m not asking you if I can recline, I’m just reclining. The passengers who are punching and kicking and behaving beastly should be sanctioned. They are the fliers creating a charged, dangerous environment at 32,000 feet. Kicking a person through a chair is still kicking her. It’s assault and battery. Victims should take photos/video, note the seat number and file a police report.
The No Recline fetishists can pay extra to buy bulkheads or exit rows or fly first class. Instead, they buy the cheapest seat they can get, then have the audacity to harass and assault fellow passengers. Complain to the responsible parties, namely the airlines and the FAA. The FAA could absolutely regulate seat size and distance between rows. Demand it. Stop assaulting people.
194
Thank You. I could not agree more with every word you said here. There are certain tiers of seating, even in economy. If people want the worst of the worst, than grumble when someone reclines in front of them and they don’t even have an option to so so themselves, I have no sympathy.
14
@hey nineteen, I can't work on my laptop from a reclined position, whether the seat is in first or coach. And the recliner who made my last flight miserable - in first, no less - WAS in a bulkhead seat, with ample room in front of him for the window passenger to stand and move into the aisle. He didn't have to abruptly hit max recline as soon as we reached cruising altitude, hitting my head as I was reaching for something under the seat. And he didn't have to ignore me as I tried, over and over again, to tap his arm, get his attention, and ask him to move his seat up just a bit.
Yes, it's all due to airlines jamming as many bodies in as they can without regard for passenger comfort (and safety, I might add). But since this is the current state of affairs, I'm here to say that paying extra doesn't help much either. The tired old workhorses that used to be used for only relatively short flights are now used for coast to coast flights, and every airline has reconfigured these old workhorses to sardine configuration.
8
@hey nineteen
The final seat does not recline so everyone cannot recline and recoup their space. If you think this is ok, how about you taking that seat.
How about the recline fetishists pay extra for first class.
10
America in the age of trump.
Selfish and horrid, nasty and
awful.
Very anti Christian
16
In my experience selfish and nasty and horrid and awful are very Christian
How rude is that to be kicking the seat in front of you
If the person behind you wanted more space they should’ve paid for business or first class.
I was on an AA flight from MSP->ORD just Wednesday. Embracer plane. Seats reclined maybe all of 2” but that didn’t stop the moron behind me from being a complete idiot.
Gimme a break. If the airlines don’t want you to recline they ought to disable ALL the coach seats from reclining and see how that goes for ticket sales. Maybe the kicking morons will become executive platinum? Maybe the current executive platinum people will fly another airline?
22
I worked for the airlines for 20 years...10 during regulation (those good old days!), and 10 during de-regulation (all hell broke loose). The pitch between seats have slowly become shorter and shorter, to the point that I believe they are a serious safety hazard. During an accident, people could easily get trapped and die. The FAA is negligent, but we know this already. Because of the pitch, seats should not be able to be reclined...period! That feature should be dismantled. End of problem! However, the guy was obnoxious and she should sue him. The FA ignored her responsibilities and should be fired. Of all the airlines, the quality of service has denigrated the most on AA. I worked for them during their high times under Robert Crandall. We were considered the "Marines" of the industry.
81
@J. G. Smith So true about deregulation and FAA becoming useless. Who was the President who championed such deregulation without asking people,please name him.
5
@J. G. Smith ~
Flying was definitely more enjoyable pre-deregulation!
Deregulation was championed as as a pro-consumer move against a big business-government cartel, with the intention of increasing competition. For a while during the 80's that happened but then the consolidations began.
"Before deregulation 10 major airlines controlled 90 percent of the market. Today, .... four control 85 percent."
3
@Phytoist Mr. Reagan, I presume.
The idea that there is an unwritten rule against reclining is utterly absurd. There is literally a written rule that you may recline. It is read aloud by a flight attendant, pilot, or on a produced video at several points in every single flight.
Paraphrasing various phrases I have heard hundreds of times:
1) Before takeoff: In preparation for departure, please be certain that your seat back is straight up and your tray table is stowed. (You can’t recline now).
2) At cruising altitude: Now sit back, relax, and enjoy your x hours, y minute flight to destination. (Please, recline!)
3) On descent: in preparation for landing, be certain your seat back is straight up and your seat belt is fastened. (Please put your seat back up).
How could any claim be made of an unwritten rule given the above. It is in fact a set of rules. Times you can’t, and time to, recline.
Not to mention the obvious fact that the seat has a button enabled recline function. I’d say that’s pretty good physical evidence that the seat is intended to allow the passenger to, you know, sit back.
I can see grey area on many issues, but this one’s about as black and white as it gets. Recline!
Rest assured I will be doing so on my next flight, and all others. I encourage the passengers in front of and behind me to do the same. Have a safe flight :-)
229
@Danny - Suburb job of articulating one side of the situation.
1
Why on earth (ok above the earth) does the last row not recline??? What a stupid design!
Take away 1/4 inch from the other 20 rows and give the last row their 3 inches. Then the protocol is simple - everyone can recline if the person in front of them reclines, and it’s all square.
Why is this still a problem?
121
@Matt Remember that a lot of people don't want to recline. If you want to read, work or do anything that involves sitting up, the solution is not in reclining your own seat.
6
@Matt - Wouldn't it be easier to make the toilet smaller, or the galley smaller or the plane a few inches longer? Or delegate the people, who don't wanna recline, to that last row? And don't stop at a 1/4 inch go for a whole 7mm's. And let's make the seats recline even more. Much more. Eliminate the fold down trays and have to eat off the 'person-in-front-of- you's face. Personally, I won't be happy until I have to be oiled up, like a sardine, to fit in the seats. As far as 'protocol,' that's a failure of our failing education system. This should be taught in the early grades along with logic.
3
@Matt, there are no more quarter-inches to take. And the toilets and galleys are already at usable minimum size.
1
Quite frankly, when flying and I try to recline the seat, it never seems to recline back enough to make it even feel like I'm reclining. So, I pop it back to the upright position. If the seats were all Lazy Boys, I could see a reason to snivel. In the meantime, sit upright for a couple of hours and suck it up. Not happy with that, find a private airline.
5
I have 3 back injuries. Reclining the seat even a few inches helps relieve serious pain, especially on a long flight. The airlines need to take out a few rows for more room for everyone, and deduct the difference from the CEO's pay. In the meantime we all have the right to recline our seats. Likely that jerk couldn't open up his laptop and he was willing to strike the woman for that. He should be charged with battery, and the flight attendant fired. The woman should sue the airline for all our sakes.
14
@AR If I had your health condition, I would ensure that I had a better seat configuration - maybe business class?
Thanks AR! Yours is the best answer yet.
I am 5'2" and short-waisted. I need to recline because the neck support is not adjustible and it pushes my head forward, hurting my arthritic neck. Even bringing a booster cushion does not raise me enough. Seat backs and arm rest heights are based on male measurements.
16
I need to recline a bit because of neck issues. I seldom recline all the way to keep from exacerbating an already uncomfortable space situation due to limited space between rows. Regardless, we would NOT be having a lively discussion on this topic if the airlines weren’t so danged focused on the bottom line. And yet they still talk about more ways to reduce this critical space???? Give us a break, airlines, because I think you’re pushing many of us to OUR breaking point!
3
Get rid of the recline function. We all come in different shapes and sizes. What could be mildly annoying to one person, could cause pain and discomfort to another. If everyone knew what their space was going to be from the outset, they would be able to make prior accommodations with neck pillows... Traveling by plane is stressful enough; some passengers are exhausted when they hit their seats; some are working furiously on their laptops, perhaps on deadline. Why not communicate to everyone what the ground rules are when it comes to their seat space, and don’t lay upon the passengers yet another onerous expectation that they sort out conflicts amongst themselves mid-air. We are strangers to each other; we probably all have different nuanced definitions of what constitutes personal space and what constitutes a violation of personal space
11
Considering it's the airlines that put the seats too close together to maximize profit, maybe I don't know who's right between two people caught in such an encounter but I know that it's the airlines, and perhaps gov't lack of regulation, that is in the wrong.
The whole problem might go away with another few inches of space per row.
Otherwise perhaps they should have to have a special "Suffer Section" for people who, to save a few bucks, sign a waiver that the airline is not liable if your knees get crushed or someone assaults you if you crush theirs.
6
The woman assaulted the man with her seatback. She's the one who should be charged! The FAA should mandate that all aircraft seats must be fixed just as they currently are in emergency rows. It's more a matter of safety than comfort. If a person in front of you is fully reclined, you cannot get out of your seat quickly in an emergency. Airlines should be subject to suit from passengers "trapped" by reclining seats.
8
Everyone knows seats recline. Therefore everyone with a seat in front of them is on notice that it may be reclined. No "assault" occurred. Just a rude, entitled passenger who felt he had a right to tell another passenger not to use her seat as it's intended.
2
They should have negotiated a settlement. Barring that, if anyone punched my seat like that, after one warning, I would have thrown drink at him.
15
To me the answer is pretty obvious and straightforward: a passenger can recline as much as the seat will allow. Airline companies and/or seat manufacturers can limit the amount of recline as needed, or disable the recline completely. It’s unfair for the company to allow recline, and then force their customers to negotiate etiquette.
83
This wouldn’t be an issue if airlines didn’t keep squeezing the standard dimensions for Economy seating. Rather than focus on what passengers should do, fliers should pressure the airlines to return to more human distances between rows.
5
Unsurprising this story stems from an American Airlines flight. My perception is AA has the least between-seat distance among the coach-class seats I've flown, and the numbers probably reflect that. What creates contention? Scarcity. If the airlines want to avoid mid-air peace negotiations, they can give an inch here and there. We're nibbling around the edges discussing courtesy.
6
@Nussbash
"My perception is AA has the least between-seat distance among the coach-class seat"
You oughta see Spirit Airlines seat distances!
1
I agree with her. It's the airline's problem, not hers. The airlines have spent enormous money figuring out how to pack us into their tin cans just like sardines. Then they act surprised when people start having problems. Notice that they still have no problems selling liquor in the airports and on the planes. I am not anti booze, but I don't think it is appropriate in places where people are already stressed.
8
I want my story to go viral, too. Last February I was on a Southwest Airlines flight from Austin to Ft. Lauderdale. Everyone boards according to numbers issued at the gate or at the checkin desk. I was a late boarder. Rather than try to fight my way to the back of the plane, I simply took the very first seat open. It was a center seat in the front row. A rather large man was seated in the aisle seat and had all of his devices spread all over the center seat when I asked him to please move them. He was not pleased. I sat down, buckled up and lowered the armrest between the man and myself. He immediately angrily shoved the armrest back up, injuring me in the process. When I protested, he just laughed at me. I tried to lower the armrest a second time while he went to the washroom; again, he shoved it up violently. Moreover, he sat in a way that his body overlapped mine. What ensued during that flight was two hours of unwanted touching and physical contact with this man. At the end of the flight, when the doors were open, I slipped out of the row and into the aisle while the man reached for his garment bag. He brought the garment bag down heavily on my shoulder, injuring me again. I protested; he laughed and said I should not have tried to get ahead of him. I got out of the plane as fast as I could and spoke with the gate agent about what happened during the flight. I have the name of the man's employer. I reached out to that co and the airline. Result? One $75 voucher.
9
In no way am I condoning his behavior, but you could have just gotten up and sat somewhere else.
3
@Island Girl I think fat people who spill over into the other passenger's seat should be required to pay for two seats. It's not fair for them to intrude into someone else's space. Also, the poster who suggested having designated reclining/non-reclining seats where passengers could select the one they prefer is an excellent idea!
1
Air Canada has a policy where obese people can provide a doctor’s form for obesity and get a second seat with no extra charge. Very humane.
Generally I do not recline; however I find the behaviour of the man who continually harrassed this woman objectionable, but for the stewardess to continue this harrassment by defending him, rewarding his uncouth behaviour and even threatening her passenger!
I hope this woman gets an apology in writing and since airlines make their decisions based on money, she is compensated accordingly.
41
@Rosiepi I hope this and the surprisingly large number of Trumpist antisocial sopipsist seat recliners are never directly in front of me. What ever happened to the Golden Rule...
If you don't want passengers to recline their seats, don't put in reclining seats. If seats recline, passengers are going to use that feature - which they have every right to do. And, yes, I've been reclined into on several occasions. Life isn't fair.
68
How is this even a debate? “Your” space includes the space behind your seat that you can recline into. If the person in front of you chooses to recline, you are welcome to do the same, maintaining the same original seat to seat dimension.
40
@Joe
" If the person in front of you chooses to recline, you are welcome to do the same, maintaining the same original seat to seat dimension."
Not in this case! The seat puncher was sitting in the last row, which does not recline.
3
@TRF, then the fault lies with the airlines
Way Back Wendi. Hope I’m not behind one on my upcoming flight.
1
Here’s a crazy thought: maybe the floor space can be increased to allow people to actually recline their seats without landing in that other person’s lap.
Yeah, I know. Let’s just blame my silliness ness on an edible, or two.
14
First of all we only have Ms. William’s perspective. But from that it seems both passengers behaved badly. The dude at the end should have ask more politely that she not recline given the fact that his seat doesn’t recline. He was likely already upset that he was placed in this seat and was lashing out at her. She should have realized his predicament and not recline her seat or at least had a civil conversation with the gentleman. Civility and human decency on both sides is what was missing here.
10
Hey Delta CEO Ed Bastian, I have an idea. Instead of making the ridiculous suggestion that your passengers should ask the person behind them if they mind if they recline (yeah because everyone is going to be just fine with that Ed), why don’t you stop cramming more and more seats on to every plane thereby leaving passengers with no leg room, no comfort, and little patience. What an outrageous comment from the guy who is flying private on the Delta corporate jet. Hey Ed do you have to ask permission to recline on the jet? I bet not.
eabing
70
Airline seat configuration pushes my neck forward and holds my damaged back at an uncomfortable angle. The repercussions for this can last days to weeks. And I don't want to have to explain what's up with my vertebrae to strangers. Maybe just trust that if I recline my seat, I have a very good reason for doing so. Please blame the airline, not me.
235
@DMS
While I have a great deal of sympathy for your condition -I am not sure when your problems became my problems.
Hint: they are not.
There are thousands of things that we refrain from doing every day because we are part of the social glue that holds together the human race - not reclining is one of those little droplets of glue - you don't and I don't - maybe you do but I still will not - because I am the glue.
16
@SteveRR
The seats can recline because the airline and manufacturers want them to be able to recline. A person CAN have a valid reason to recline. People with injuries and disabled people should be able to travel too.
The "glue" that you feel you need to be is because the airlines do not give you enough space. That is not the fault of the customer in front of you. Blame the airline if someone reclines and you don't have space, because the airline gave them the right and ability to recline.
29
@DMS Poor excuse. Bring something with you to solve the problem. And consider for at least one second, what your reclining may be doing to the body of the unfortunate passenger behind you.
6
The airlines have chosen to cram as many seats as possible into a finite space and then put the onus on the customers to negotiate with each other for the very limited space left for their use and comfort. But the airlines have segmented the market so aggressively that all you need to do is spend more money to get any comfort you desire. If you don’t like that seat that doesn’t recline, with no leg room, no room to use your computer, etc. don’t blame the person in front of you. Blame the airline and then go spend some more money for the comfort you want. The airlines create the problem than expect you to pay them for the solution.
326
@NTL In fact, the higher-end seats aren't always perfect either.
9
@NTL yes, at age 70, & I can afford it, I go 1st class. Otherwise the pain can be unbearable.
3
@NTL
"The airlines create the problem than expect you to pay them for the solution."
NO! The passengers created this problem by (in most cases) selecting the flights based almost entirely on the ticket price. The airlines just accommodate these passengers. If you want a better seat pay extra for an exit row, or premiom economy, or.... If you buy the cheapest seat do not complain that you got what you paid for.
6
Quite simple: if the person in front of me reclines, then I do.
91
@John
Not if you are in the last row!
7
@John, I do the very same thing at sporting events. When the person in front of you stands, you stand too if you want to see the game. Your seat provides limited space side-to-side and front-to-back, but you own as much vertical space as your frame will allow you to occupy. On an airplane, if the seat you purchased reclines, you own that small rearward horizontal extension of space and should be allowed to use it as you choose. Period.
2
Why have seats that recline if you're not supposed to do it? We're fighting with each other instead of demanding the industry put comfort over profit. This is an industry who is being allowed to regulate themselves and rarely does anything interfere with that. Up until recently it was legal for them to hold passengers like prisoners on planes for hours at a time. That wasn't being done for passenger comfort either. I stopped wanting to fly when they started treating me like a potential terrorist rather than a treasured customer.
41
These disputes will continue until the FAA regulates (i.e. increases) seat room requirements. That will mean higher ticket prices with fewer seats on each plane. So the question is: are people willing to pay more (maybe $20 or $30 a seat more depending on the exact number of seats lost) for the increased comfort?
16
I know I am willing to pay more!
1
Call me crazy but when I purchase a seat the ability to recline seems to part of that price. So while you may not like that I have reclined, feel free to recline to as is your right...
79
I'm quite certain the the contract you agree to with the airline when you purchase your seats contains exactly zero references to your ability to recline the seat. As for rights, those seem to be enumerated in the Constitution; perhaps there is a 28th Amendment of which I am unaware?
Doing something because one feels entitled to do it seems to be at the root of most conflicts throughout history.
5
And I'm quite certain that when you buy something with a particular function, it means you're entitled to use it. If you can't deal with someone in front of you reclining, buy the front seat.
9
The airlines have the temerity to ask passengers to be respectful of others when deciding to recline when they have created the situation by shrinking room to create larger profit. Service is awful, delays are constant and now we are supposed to abide by their imposed etiquette. Why do we put up with this?
9
I'm 6'5, lean and I've had lower back problems for decades. Sitting in an airplane seat in economy class is uncomfortable. On a recent flight the fellow traveller seated in front of me proceeded to fully recline his seat midway through our 5 hours flight, just as I was thinking to myself how lucky I was to be seated behind someone so considerate. Or at least not fussy. Despite that I have not reclined my seat at all, since I was ok and I did not want to inconvenience the person sitting behind me. When we got to our destination my now relaxed comrade smiled and asked me if I could help getting his suitecase from the overhead bin (it happens to me a lot , I think it has to do with me being tall) . Which I did, wishing him a great day. He thanked me and returned the pleasantry. All things considered it wasn't a big deal. When I was a kid my parents taught me to be considerate. Life proceeded to teach me further that few things are worth getting upset about. Most can be made light of. Cheers!
34
It is my prerogative to recline my seat if I wish, without asking anyone’s permission. These days airplane eats only go back a couple of inches, but that’s absolutely necessary to be able to tolerate the overall discomfort of air travel. I have no problem with the person in front of me reclining their seat and I expect them to.
On another matter, if I’m sitting in the window seat, I control the shade
13
They call it a SEAT BACK, stressing the second part of the word. They didn't call it a seat front. So when I'm on a flight I like to relax, and put the seat back, as often does the person in front of me, which is his right. I wouldn't think of complaining about this.
However, the real culprit is the airlines, who by cramming as many seats/rows into the plane has pitted passengers against one another, instead of the greedy airlines who've turned planes into sardine cans. If the seats were spaced more this wouldn't be an issue. The guy kicking the women's seat should be banned from that airline.
14
If a child punched the back of a seat, trust me, the debate would not be about...reclining etiquette! And the flight attendant would not be offering free cocktails to the child’s parents (although that might be a good idea). Why is it that we demand better behavior of children than of adults? Maybe we don’t know the whole story, but the male passenger’s behavior was almost bizarre.
95
Why is no one blaming the airlines for this situation? There was a time you could recline your seat and not bother the person behind you—that is, before they packed more and more seats in every plane to maximize every inch. Passengers are losing against the airlines in every way, especially with extra fees for baggage, for an inch or two extra of legroom, and everything else. These add on fees don’t get taxed in the same way that base fares do. So their bottom line keeps growing while the room for our, ahem, bottoms just gets more and more squeezed.
7
Mr. Harteveldt is incorrect, I think, that the unwritten rule is that you don't recline unless you really need to.
In my view, it may be courteous to refrain from reclining (or to ask before you recline) if someone is sitting behind you, but the person sitting behind you is not entitled to either courtesy and doesn't have any right to get angry if those courtesies are omitted.
I'm well over six feet and have never found that a seat in economy becomes anything but very marginally more uncomfortable when the person in front of me reclines.
12
The big deal is, when you treat people like cattle someone is going to get gored.
I prefer to sit up. In cramped planes this is an advantage to the person behind me, but I'm tall and if the person in front drops back full force it can be darned hard on the knees.
However, I have a different peeve. I hate it when the person behind grabs my seat back to launch themselves into a standing position. Once someone even latched onto my hair, quite a feat considering how short it is.
14
It was fine to recline when there was legroom. There no longer IS enough room. Either take out a few rows of seats ( Ha, good luck with that ! ) or eliminate the recline button.
3
American Airlines management encourages passengers to be respectful of one another while the airline treats its customers like cattle, endangers their lives by overcrowding (consider the difficulty of an emergency evacuation in the tight confines of an aircraft) and consistently puts its desire for increased profits ahead of safety.
23
I couldn’t agree more, the greedy airlines have created the nightmare of flying. I have no doubt they will eventually remove the recline function in the seats as well.
The FAA needs to intervene. This sardine packing of passengers is a hazard to our health, safety and serenity. Eliminate several rows of seats and make minimum seat space mandatory. If the price of an airline ticket needs to go up, so be it.
We cannot expect the traveling public to all be reasonable and considerate of others.
We’ve already seen travelers pack the overhead bins because they don’t want to pay baggage fees or have to wait a few minutes for their bags at baggage claim.
I blame the unregulated airlines for creating this monster and putting their employees and travelers in this explosive environment.
Passenger Air Travel is a powder keg ready to explode.
6
I actually do attempt a "middle seat" position: I'll recline my seat but no more than halfway. And certainly never during meals!
1
Why make the seat reclinable is you're not suppose to be more comfortable, if that's possible and recline the seat? That's too bad for that the "man" (excuse me but a woman would never be so rude...I hope). The space between seats is getting so tiny we are all uncomfortable, the short and the tall, female and male. I guess we are just suppose to seat there and be miserable for the duration of the flight. If you want more space pay for it!!!
1
@Pat
"If you want more space pay for it!!!" --Says every airline in the world!
3
@Pat a woman would never be so rude? Are you kidding?
1
funny how quickly very selfish people are able to scream that they were assaulted by somebody else if they do not get their own way. she does not understand that she was assaulting the passenger behind her when she reclined her seat. I am sure that tray knocked right into his knees and or stomach. Also if he was leaning forward the seat would have hit his head. people who want to recline their seat should ask the person behind first, and if that person has an issue then just forget about reclining. Reclining is a luxury. Having room coming back for your tray in your seat is a necessity no. She was not assaulted. The guy was just sending her a message please do not recline.
18
@Richard I agree. That woman who purposely reclined into that man's space when she could clearly see he was in the back row with a non-reclining seat is incredibly selfish. I understand on overseas flights people need to recline to sleep overnight, but on a short domestic flight people should have decent manners and ask the person behind if it's OK with them to recline. No, it's not legally required to ask, just basic consideration and courtesy.
3
@Richard
If he wanted to send her a message, maybe he could have just *asked* her to put her seat forward?
4
The seat she bought had a reclining feature. Whether it's a luxury or not, she paid for the right. The man behind her was clearly in the wrong - he's the one who was rude & entitled.
2
Hello, people:
“The proper thing to do is, if you’re going to recline into somebody, you ask if it’s OK first,”
Reclining is a negotiated option, not a legal right. Please get some perspective, manners, and write your congressman about seating standards.
It’s absurd what people put up with, but corporations have lobbied congress to the point it no longer represents the will of the people.
5
Airlines sell seats that recline. They sell seats with extra legroom and will less legroom. She’s well within her rights using the seat she bought. He’s assaulting her. Not complicated.
178
Another typical example of America in decline.
8
@RG Or recline in this case.
7
When the jerk in front of me tries to recline, I jam my knees against their seat and watch then cluelessly jab at the button and bounce around in the seat to no effect. It's usually painful for me, but still provides some momentary entertainment.
Everyone who flies is aware of the claustrophobic conditions outside first class, and if they choose to recline they know they are inconveniencing their rear neighbor at best, causing a minor catastrophe at worst - I have more than once seen someone suddenly recline during meal service and put food or drink into the lap of the poor person behind.
I detest flying, as you might suppose, but I never recline, even on international flights.
Hey, maybe the question 'What was your "recline" preference?' is on the entrance exam at the Pearly Gates?
7
Another reason not to fly American.
17
Regulate the industry. Please. What American passengers endure is tragic, especially considering the prices.
I can fly from Paris to Rome with 30 euros, but cannot go from Boston to DC with less than $300. Why?
294
@US Expatriate
Greed.
20
@US Expatriate In fact, it's because of regulation (which keeps out foreign competition) that your flight from Boston to D.C. is so much more expensive than your flight from Paris to Rome.
16
@US Expatriate it's the same in Australia. It can be cheaper to fly to from an Australian capital city to South East Asia than cross country.
3
What about a polite request instead of punching the seat? On a recent flight, the person in front of me reclined, making it quite difficult to use my computer. I politely explained this to her, and she happily raised her seat while I worked. And as soon as I was finished, I let her know it was ok to recline again. We then shared a Lyft into Manhattan.
399
@Stuart This is the human, polite, adult way to work it out. Thanks for your post.
34
@Stuart
Other news sources indicated that he did request that she not recline the seat. She raised the seat for awhile so that he could eat his meal, and then she reclined it again.
15
@Stuart Thank you for your mature solution. One would think this would be obvious, but we seem to live in a climate now where everything is a confrontational assertion of rights and compromise is never considered.
11
The worst part about this situation is it feels like we’re animals thrown in a ring to fight for the amusement of the wealthy.
I’m not sure I quite understand airline economics. My wife and I are affluent enough to travel more than we do, but we often don’t — put off by $1000 coach tickets and miserable in-flight accommodations. I guess the airlines are profitable, but it feels like they could be more profitable if they treated passengers better.
169
@Delta Flyer
The internet did it. These days people do a flight search and choose the absolute cheapest flight they can find. Airlines offer bare-bones services because they will go bankrupt if they cannot compete on price. So people pay the cheapest price and then complain when they get cramped seats, lousy service and an extra charge for bags and meals. This will continue until people learn to shop around and are willing to pay more for better service.
These days I absolutely loathe flying and will go to a lot of additional trouble and expense to get a better experience.
In real terms, $1,000 for a coach seat is a lot cheaper than back when flying was more fun. In those days, you had to pay a lot for flight, but you traveled in a lot more comfort.
1
Let's face it. Air travel is not what it once was. Between worrying about every ounce in your suitcase, the prospect of being groped by TSA, the possibility of the whole flight being delayed, and struggling to find space for your carry-on, by the time the flight leaves you're exhausted and feel like nothing is under your control.
So you finally get to sit down. When the space between seats was not the claustrophobic coffin it is now, the person in front reclining was an inconvenience and at mealtimes with could be awkward. But now, it feels as if every single inch of personal space is precious and it's an invasion. The person in front of you is exercising control over your tiny space, and once again there is nothing you can do about it. It quite understandably makes people angry. The airlines should just admit that air travel is now a misery that must be endured and remove the reclining seats. Then at least the tiny coffin of space would be secure, at least until the guy on the window needs the restroom.
170
@WhichyOne Really, "your space" begins at the point at which the seat in front of you can't recline further. That person paid for their seat just as you did.
7
@WhichyOne It would be much worse if your seat were rigid and not adjustable.
1
@WhichyOne, coach is ridiculously expensive, but first class even more. We now buy back the space the airlines stole with the "coach plus" extra legroom seats. It doesn't help the width issue, but it's a start. I pity the folks who can't afford to upgrade. I know; I used to be one of them.
Whether the people here who enjoy reclining realize it or not, I am behind you and the seat you recline pushes your seat nearly 4 inches in front of my face make eating and computer use very uncomfortable.
134
@Hobie van Huson
Exaggerate much? And why should your decision to work during a flight over rule my decision to relax and sleep? Pay the fee and get the seat with the extra leg room. Again, your decision to fly as cheaply as possible is not my problem.
64
I wonder why I don’t have that experience when the person in front of me declined?
5
@Hobie van Huson For the flights that I have been on, they usually announce the meal and ask people to bring their seat up.
7
Why haven't airlines monetized the seat recline function yet, as they have with meals, boarding, luggage, leg room, and practically everything else? If everyone on the plane knows that someone paid an extra fee for the right to recline their seat, it will go unquestioned. Airline corporations have become highly proficient at imposing fees for every little thing. How did they overlook seat recline?
55
They have. You can tell whether your seat reclines. First class seats recline to flat. She paid to haves seat that reclines. He assaulted her.
18
@Will
Don't give them any ideas, or we'll see pay toilets and coin-operated overhead luggage compartments.
7
@Will ...What’s next on your list, pay toilets? A rising fee lifts all suckers, and the bickering continues.
Airlines could simply set seats at a reasonable pitch (distance apart), charge realistic pricing instead of the current Chinese auction method, and eliminate reclining altogether.
But having recently demonstrated their willingness to fly an airplane known to be unsafe, passenger comfort certainly ranks even lower than safety.
8
The airlines could deal with this quite simply by encouraging people to negotiate and be considerate. It could be incorporated in the safety instructions. Otherwise the expectation is this woman's (and has always been mine) that you have the right to recline your seat as much as you want.
13
@J
We have the right to do a lot of things: talk loudly on our cell phones and thereby disturbing others, belching loudly in public, letting out gas whenever we want, and so forth. It really makes no difference to you that you might be causing serious discomfort to the person behind you so many hours? This has been so widely discussed that I find it difficult to imagine that you are not aware of why reclining your seat might be a problem.
10
@J why don’t the airlines fix the problem they created? Why do we have to negotiate for minimal comfort for which we pay maximum money ?
10
@J I tried to negotiate with the man who assaulted me on a Southwest Airlines flight between Austin and Fort Lauderdale. He just laughed at me. Two hours of unwanted touching and elbow jabbing was humiliating. One year later I am still angry about the incident. Neither the airline nor the employer of the man have done anything about it. I was assaulted and injured; is there a lawyer out there who can help me?
1
As a women who is 6’-1” with a 38” inseam, a reclined seat is a painful proposition. Should someone else have to endure hours of leg and back pain for you to be ever so slightly more comfortable in your reclined seat? Airlines: Abolish the recline function please!
150
@Elizabeth bank Well put. Agreed.
19
@Elizabeth bank I am 5 ft 4 with a bad back. All people deserve the right to be at least minimally comfortable. I have been on planes that don’t recline. I can assure you that all they also made the leg space shorter so you would still be uncomfortable.
18
As a disabled woman with degenerative disc disease and arthritis in my back, a non-reclining seat is a painful proposition. Should someone else have to endure hours of excruciating back and hip pain just so the seat doesn’t touch your knees ever so slightly? Airlines: retain reclining seats!
113
You get what you pay for.
If you want change, support regulating the industry.
105
It is simple. If you don't accept someone's right to recline a seat, pay extra for a seat in the front row. If you don't nicely ask the person in front of you not to fully recline their seat, assaulting the person is never the right way to do things. The Person who violently objected to the person in front reclining her seat should have been handed over to law enforcement when the plane touched down. Any assault is a crime.
312
@Jeff “Assault”? You realize important words cease to have meaning when tossed around so carelessly, yes?
20
@Tim Actually, the proper word is "battery" (some states merge the term with assault), and the behavior of the person behind fits the legal definition, an offensive contact without consent. It need not be direct touching (battery with a lead pipe, for example). Probably a misdemeanor at this level; it's also actionable in civil court as well as in a criminal context.
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Is it that simple? I’m 6’2” and my knees are already in an awkward position before someone in front of me reclines. Is a passengers minor comfort of reclining two inches worth my major discomfort of having to rest my knees on the back of the chair?
The seats recline and until they are made otherwise this will always be an issue, but I don’t know that the “simple” answer is to have anyone over 5’8” shell out another $200 for an exit row seat.
So here’s the deal I propose tall people make with seat recliners: no punching of the seats (that’s just insanity). BUT: when I inevitably kick or push your chair (completely on accident but it does occur when I shift), seat recliners have to accept it is part of their reality. And as a forewarning, it happens about every 3-5 minutes.
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