This is one of the most horrifying things I've ever read. I am grateful justice prevailed in the criminal case.
Does anyone really believe a lawyer saying that a consent form takes all question out of the encounter? Apart from the other jaw dropping assertions in this podcast I would like to point out that, as a doctor, a consent form is only relevant if it is NOT signed. If it is signed it is generally discarded in any subsequent law suit as irrelevant - it it really “informed” not coerced, etc etc..tldr: a consent form will never protect you.
Finished reading Chanel Miller’s powerful book “Know my Name” this morning. This lawyer should educate herself by reading it. Everyone should.
1
Harvey Weinstein’s “False Memory” Defense and its Shocking Origin Story: How Powerful Sex Offenders Manipulated the Field of Psychology
https://medium.com/@anna_holtzman/harvey-weinsteins-false-memory-defense-and-its-shocking-origin-story-2b0e4b98d526
1
There are two issues that everyone is skirting around, including this lawyer: first, rape is the only major felony where consent negates any crime. And you CAN'T get "retroactive" consent. It must be obtained beforehand. So, the crux of the issue is whether maintaining friendly relations with Weinstein after the fact is enough to discredit a woman's testimony about what happened at the time the alleged rape took place. Or, if not discredit, then enough to create reasonable doubt in a juror's mind that the necessary consent was not obtained. It's not an easy question. It is why we have trials.
Rotunno of course pretended to maintain clarity on this question, then muddled it when she thought it would help her case.
The second issue involves treating all Title VII violations as felonies, which they are not, and instead recognizing that they are very serious, personally and socially damaging torts. Rotunno muddled that one, too, when she tried to make it seem like Weinstein's only sin was yelling at work and adultery. Oh, and he had no power in this picture -- the women did.
It is true that not every Title VII violation is a crime. It is always wrong to violate a person's rights, but it isn't always criminal.
But if Weinstein had respected all women's Title VII rights, he would not be in court right now for something worse. That's the "cultural" aspect we need to focus on. It affects us all.
6
Ms Twohey broke the Weinstein case with a coworker and then the pair wrote SHE SAID, a book about the investigation. As such, an impartial journalist should have conducted the interview instead of one who has publicly staked her opinion. An impartial journalist would not have had the clearly emotional responses to Rotunno’s comments and would have had the clearheaded presence of mind to ask good follow up questions.
5
I completely agree with your comments. Twohey seemed appalled that any woman was willing to give Weinstein a defense at all. Some of her questions took as their premise the protest placards on the street outside the courthouse. She seemed unaware of the concept of “innocent until proven guilty,” the Protections of the bill of rights, or the difference between trying someone in the press and an actual trial, whose standards of proof are considerably different than the daily editorial meeting of the NYT. Someone without an obvious axe to grind could have done a better job of uncovering the weaknesses in the actual case.
@David Charbonneau
Maybe, just maybe it's not an "axe to grind"...maybe she spent months researching and interviewing women about the most guarded traumatic experience of their lives.
Maybe she saw all the powerful men, media men, police & prosecutors, PRs, businessmen, agencies, partners, actors & celebrities, all making sure consequences stayed miles away from Harvey. She also noticed planted false stories in the tabloids HW controlled.
Someone always owed HW a favor & this was the time to call them all. He spread his many lies and hired lawyers in a full court press. HW often called the two NYT reporters, eds, attys, & the publisher.
Maybe Ms Twohey was tired of having Mossad following her and her partner, along with Ronan Farrow and others near the Real Harvey Story. Having these thugs follow and harass might have felt like a bit much.
At HW's command, private eyes & spies used Mossad to heighten fear. HW planted stories re:the fragile mental health of his victims.
Maybe Ms Twohey listened to 70-plus first-hand stories of women who were trying to work on movies while a large, narcissistic, lying predator chased them and physically prevented their escape with his heft and threats that they would either cooperate sexually or be fired.
When you hear the WOMEN VICTIMS speak & you learn HW's modus operandi, the stories actually makes so much sense.
PS Megan Twohey and Jodi Kanor won the Pulitzer Prize for journalism in th public service category.
(mic drop)/s
In "The Counselor", one of the best movies of 2013, Javier Bardeem's character said, "You can do anything to woman ---except bore her," or something along those lines. That one line keeps coming back to haunt me as the news has evolved these many years later.
Yes, I wonder: How can a man prove he didn't coerce a woman to sign a letter of consent to have sex with her? It seems to me many women (not all) know exactly what they're doing and then claim they were forced. After all, they might be entitled to compensation, right?
3
@Edwin It seems to me that ALL men will say they are innocent of everything. We all know that's not remotely true. 95% of all sexual assault complaints are real; only 5% are not. So yes, indeed dear male, focus on the 5%.
12
Ms. Rotunno is obviously a well-educated person with some valid points on the current "me too" universe we are now living in. Everyone is entitled to a fair trial and she is certainly entitled to her opinion. But as the interview progressed, it became obvious that she is one of those people who believe that women have the whole burden to protect themselves from sexual assault. She is very invested in patriarchy - men are predators and women are prey and we should live our lives accordingly. She's right, that's true for now. But shouldn't we work to change that? And isn't bringing predatory men down the beginning of that process? Aren't consequences the only way to force men to rethink the predatory behavior that women have had to tolerate since the beginning of time? Women should be safe anywhere, any time, any place. Location, dress, drinking etc. are not consent. Her comment at the end of the interview that she hadn't been assaulted because she never put herself in that position I think clearly demonstrates that she blames women for their assaults. So shocking to hear from a woman. I guess she is someone who since she hasn't experienced it, she doesn't understand or have empathy for it. I hope and pray that we are in the process of evolving past the rape culture that has been the way of life for women since the beginning of time.
23
@Michelle
I was also quite surprised at listening to this interview. Of course I do not at all agree with Ms. Rotunno's arguments. Yet it is true that women have to pay a lot of attention to places they go, with whom, and a sexual predator like Harvey Weinstein, powerful in his field of activity, inevitably leads to abuse on the part of the powerful person.
Even if Harvey Weinstein is acquitted, he has lost everything. His firm, quite some of his money (I think), but worst of all, he has lost all respect from other people.
The solution to this problem lies in the way we educate our children, especially the boys. They should be made aware in an early stage of their development of the limits of their behaviour towards girls and women. I guess this is wishful thinking on my part...
6
I agree with everything the lawyer said. A lot of those women put themselves in those situations and they also knew who Harvey Weinstein was in the film industry. I am not defending him but I do agree that women have to respect themselves and not go into a man's hotel room at midnight thinking that it will be a business meeting! Be smarter than that!
5
@Nabi
I fully disagree with you. This has nothing to do with being 'smart', but it has everything to do with being 'a sexual predator, a criminal'.
A woman should be able to go ANYWHERE at ANY TIME without risking being assaulted.
Your comment justifies rape on the grounds that a woman is alone at some place and cannot defend herself when confronted with a man who is - physically - so much stronger than she is.
Imagine a young woman who - for whatever reason - meets some man some place to discuss a matter of importance to her. Simply because there would be nobody around, you agree that it is all right that this man forces this woman into doing something she definitely does not want???
Just give a good thought to your comment, you might see what I mean.
11
@ES
It is true a woman should be able to Go anywhere any time but women have to weigh the risks of their actions and take responsibility for what they do. This is true for all adults. If women want to be coddled and cushioned against all negative aspects of life, are they children or adults?
4
@Lynn in DC Women are not asking to be coddled and cushioned against all aspects of life. We are asking for a reasonable expectation of safety, and to not be raped or assaulted when a man sees an opportunity.
1
I’ve listened to every episode of the daily and this is the first time I’ve almost thrown up. This woman is living in a fantasy world. If I’ve ever heard a moment when I say internalized misogyny it’s this: that moment at the end when she says she’s never been sexually assaulted because she never put herself in that position, I nearly screamed.
23
@Hannah McGinty
I can only give ONE click on 'Recommend'... I would have liked to give ONE THOUSAND at least...
9
@Hannah McGinty The SMUGNESS and superiority baked into that comment was mind-blowing. But I think she knew what she was saying- I think it's a dog whistle of sorts to a movement of people who believe that confident, sexually active women deserve what they get when they get assaulted. And it's a simple way to try to discredit every woman claiming assault as an incredible witness who got what was coming to her. In short- "she asked for it", right?
3
She doesn’t seem to get it. The whole point is that a woman should be able go to a man’s hotel room and not be assaulted, period. She should be able to flirt and change her mind and say no and leave period full stop. Instead Of blaming women, we should expect men not to sexually assault them.
13
I think this is entirely disrespectful to men. Men are people too. To suggest that a woman has to look around at night because men will sexually assault her if she doesn't "take responsibility" for their unstoppable urges? We're better than that.
7
@Coles Lee If you were to research the statistics for violence against women perpetrated by men, you would be alarmed. This is the reason for being alert at night, because history has repeated itself too many times for women not to be scared. You can debate the "not all men" viewpoint all you want, but the bigger problem lies in this women's thinking that sexual abuse lies at the hands of women rather than the person committing it.
Thank you for being an ally to women, as we need it.
Wait a minute I’m all confused. Who is the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, whose on trial, who is the victim, who is being assaulted, by whom and who is the judge and jury , what is or isn’t sexual assault?
What is clear is that Ms Roonan is a lawyer and she is sticking to her area of expertise, Law, and trying to avoid a moral debate - wise move considering the counter argument, benefaction of nepotism and booty calls with married men.
If Ms Twohey had stuck to her area of expertise she could have done so much more to advocate for victims of sexual assault (a cause she is obviously passionate about) and helped to reiterate the two points made - 1. the law probably doesn’t have the framework to protect you in such nuanced cases so you should take precautions to protect yourself 2. Perpetrate the behaviour and not only does it remain prevalent it sets the precedent for the rest of us.
And did I miss the verdict?
2
The final moments of this podcast, at min 24, was absolutely troubling. When asked “have you ever been sexually assaulted?” Donna answered with “No, because I would never put myself in that position.” This answer floored me, because it appeared evident Donna believed that women were ultimately responsible for their assaults. That their “bad choices” (and not men’s) were causing their own rape. Donna has never been assaulted or raped, and her lack of true understanding has cultivated a lack of empathy on her part, and ultimately acts as a vital component in stepping into, and formulating the defense of Harvey Weinstein. I’m not saying all people need to experience rape in order to feel empathy. But she has deeply rooted assumptions about what causes rape and insinuating that the blame should be shouldered by the victim.
11
Donna Rotunno talked about how allegations against a man will follow him for the rest of his life and cause his reputation to be irreparably ruined. That seems to me a hollow statement given the President of the United States was caught on tape admitting sexual assault of women and yet faced no demonstrable repercussions! Tell me again how allegations of sexual assault will ruin a man's career...
12
@Natasha You're comparing apples to oranges. Trumps supporters, including the Christian right, are all advocates of the devil. They thrive on his antics.
5
It may not be a perfect comparison, but I'll argue it is a clear symptom of how society views the value of women who have been sexually assaulted versus the men in power who take advantage of them.
14
If a woman is coerced to have sex could she not then be coerced in signing a letter of consent?
12
@marcy And that's what she is talking about. Take responsibility for yourself. And no I'm not talking about rape. I'm talking about putting yourself in bad situations. She's saying women aren't children. She's trying to empower women.
6
@Tom W —I am not sure if you have been part of the cut throat world of entertainment—theatre, television, any of the performing arts. They call auditions, 'cattle calls'—Hollywood seemed to create that personal touch of 'one on one's' and business meetings in hotel rooms seemed to be pretty de rigeur. What's the first instinct for survival, it's eating—being able to pay your bills, finding that break. One gets dressed to look their best, to be able to impress a potential boss—you catch my drift.
I found Ms. Rotunno's interview to be developed from hindsight rather than from what the environment was in 'Weinstein's World'.
What was indicting against her defence was that Weinstein's brother had written a letter to ask Harvey to seek help for his perversion. When your own family sees wrong doing and you can't stop from repeat offences, then no one could stop him. The #metoo movement was a reaction to such deplorable actions. And I hope that Hollywood has forever changed because of the movement.
I am sad that Ms. Rotunno seems to have found so many clients that she has had to defend—it doesn't speak well for the decency in men.
4
Yes, I wonder: How can a man prove he didn't coerce a woman to sign a letter of consent to have sex with her? It seems to me many women (not all) know exactly what they're doing and then claim they were "forced". After all, they might be entitled to compensation, right?
1
Megan: "Have you ever been sexually assaulted?"
...
Donna: "I have not, I have not"...."because I would never put myself in that position."
[Long pause from Megan]
That line is a sucker punch to the gut. Those are the deadly words that ricochet around my mind every night as I try to sleep. On the nights when I'm unsuccessful at pushing the memory of my own assault away - those are the words that keep me up and feed the bubbling pit of shame in my stomach. That it was actually my fault. That I put myself in the position to be attacked.
I don't disagree with everything Donna said. I believe in due process and justice.
But due process doesn't justify victim-blaming.
24
@Christine I felt the same. Leading up to that point I was able to understand fair due process, but wow what a statement. I couldn't believe she defended herself after saying it outloud.
3
I am absolutely disgusted by the way this lawyer spoke and placed the responsibility on the woman ALONE. Are you actually kidding me? I feel violated all over again.
16
It's not about whether a woman thinks sex will be wanted. It's the fact that men seem to not understand the word no, and think that flirting, kissing, and allowing some under the clothes action is a green light for sex.
It's true that women should be aware and reduce risky behavior. However, sexual assault happens everywhere, not just in hotel rooms and residences, and not only after a few drinks. A make out session in a car(or at the office party or the dark corner of a club) does not mean the guy has the right to assault you.
Mothers: please have a few serious talks with your sons about this. Explain that putting your hands on someone else's body should ALWAYS be consensual, no matter the circumstances. If the girl is impaired, be a decent human being and protect her, don't take advantage.
18
One of the best podcasts I've ever heard. Ms Rotunno said so eloquently what I have been saying for years. While no one deserves to be assaulted, women have to take responsibility for the situations they put themselves in. Feminism is about equal opportunities - but that also means we have to take equal risk and equal responsibility. Ms Rotunno refused to be bullied and stood her ground. I would have loved to listen to another hour of her speaking!
19
@Joni
I was in the on-call room, sleeping, when the attending physician sexually assaulted me.
Gues I shouldn’t have become a doctor, right?
42
@john @Joni It's a privilege to be able to walk away. Much easier to walk away when your parents will fund your actor career than when you don't know how you will eat the next day. It also perpetuates this idea that most victims had some level of control, but like Liz most of us did not. We were just working or walked into a room where someone we knew decided to act on their opportunity like true predators. Most women do take a lot of precautions to prevent themselves from being raped, but the rapists do establish trust first. They might take you on a couple dates first, they might disguise as your friend, they might be family. They don't like the sex, they like your stare of terror when you understand you are powerless because you trusted them and that they have all the power. It is not about sex it is about power and breaking people's spirit.
8
@Joni ... that doesn't make any sense...
Do you really think there is an equal risk of a woman assualting men as men assaulting women.
The responsibility lies with both men and woman not to put drugs in peoples drinks, not to take advantage of power relationships, not to abuse positions of trust. Do not put the responsibility on the victim of an assault.
You can reduce risk of being exposed to criminal conduct, and thats a balance we all make, but the responsibility always lies with the perpetrator.
6
To those who commented that women need to take some responsibility for sexual assault after having a few drinks, how about this for a new perspective: if a woman has had a few drinks, the men around her take responsibility to ensure she arrives home safely, rather than take advantage of her vulnerability? There are both types of men out there and we need to praise the former, not provide additional support for the latter. Second point: Men treat a few drinks as an excuse for aggression; here, some are saying in essence that when women drink, it then transfers that responsibility to the women.
Megan, thank for your excellent work and keeping that interview going so we can understand and discuss the danger of the messages still being circulated.
26
Wow. If I’m ever in trouble, I’d like this as my attorney. And she’s right, women should stop going to hotel rooms with such naïveté. I recently heard Charlize Theron on Fresh Air talk about a time many years ago when she went to a producers house at 9 on a Saturday night to talk about an acting opportunity. Well, he was in his jammies, put his hand on her knee and she left. Today she is still incensed over this! I think, besides being weak, trivializes the harm that real sexual assault can do.
And the attorney was absolutely right about the biases of the interviewer.
10
@Nancy
Why shouldn't Charlize Theron be angry? She made herself available for a business meeting at 9 pm on a Saturday, and she was groped instead. So she left.
Who engaged in disgraceful conduct? Who violated Theron's Title VII protections?
I'd be angry, too.
You'll notice she did not stay, nor did she file a criminal complaint for a vicious felony. So, how is her story an example of anything other than firm principles, and taking resolute action to protect herself?
Please don't tell me she wasn't suppose to go.
2
Though she will never see it, I would like to address this "lovely lady". Was it my fault that my roommate gave her boyfriend a key to our apartment, even thought I asked her not to? Was it my fault he used that key, came into my room and raped me? I still, to this day, do not drink or do drugs. I never have. I was wearing an oversized sweatshirt and a pair of jeans in my own home, not that it matters. Was it my fault? It has taken me years to get to where I don't think it was, in part thanks to people like you, that say things like that. Victim blaming and fear of the response kept me from coming forward about my rapist. People that think the way you think, and my honest fear of their responses, kept a rapist free. I hope that people like you don't make that mistake again.
25
@john Except she's not. Most rapes are acquaintance rapes. (And Ash, thank you for sharing your story. I'm so sorry this happened to you.) The thing is, for most people there is a firm dividing line between home and workplace. If your boss asks you to come to his home, you think "wait a minute, that's not right." But for a lot of jobs, including a lot of those in Hollywood, the dividing line is not so firm. What about a housekeeper? She's at work... in a hotel room. Is she to blame when she gets sexually assaulted? What about a personal trainer who trains celebrity clients in their homes? Is she to blame when she gets assaulted? The life of a producer like Weinstein can easily take place - both work and play - all in various hotel rooms around the globe as he visits Cannes for openings, Budapest for filming, New York for upfronts. And he can't stop casting and meeting with directors while he's in a different country, so yes, going to a hotel room to meet with a producer, often with his assistant right outside, can and should be safe. Because it's not on the victim to be aware at all times of every possible direction from which danger can come! It's on the perpetrator to not rape. It's ALWAYS on the perpetrator. Rape is literally the only crime in which we blame the victim. If it were a house that got burgled, would you blame the homeowner? Even if he left the door open? Even if the package was sitting invitingly on the front step?
9
@john She is not. But you aren't letting an opportunity to speak down to a woman go by you, are you? That is exactly what Rotunno said. I'm an attorney also and I found her position abhorrent. The "I wouldn't be assaulted because I make good choices" is victim blaming at its most pernicious. For you to respond to someone who experienced that the way you did is inappropriate.
1
I wish they would have brought up the Bill Cosby case. Would the lawyer have argued the same in that case? Based on her arguments it would have been the woman’s fault to even consider working with Mr. Cosby? Do I understand that right?
8
It doesn't matter if a woman make good choices or engages in risky behavior--if someone is intent on assaulting you, they will find or seek an opportunity to do so by using lies, deceit, coercion, manipulation, drugs, the element of surprise, or stopping over to do you a favor.
This is not a women's behavior problem, it is a male entitlement problem and it is a big one.
Woman who gets through life without ever being sexually assaulted are rare and lucky.
Ms Rutunno claims that she would never "put herself in that situation" as if getting sexually assaulted is solely based on her decision-making alone. That is a distortion. The truth is, she has just been lucky.
27
People, let's remember: This is an attorney, doing lawyer-speak. They don't count it as lying, exactly, but a version of truthiness when defending a client. I am not defending HER outrageous speech, I am just saying I don't think she totally believes that, and it's her job to keep that line. I don't approve, I don't believe her and I think she is a disgrace, not just to womankind but to humanity.
But she probably earned her spot in that Guiliani spangled hall of fame.
1
Donna Rotunno completely terrified me. Who could have raised such a person? Moreover - can you imagine being raised BY such a person. Please tell me she doesn't have children.
8
@Julie Cannon
Fully agree with you. I was appalled by what she argued. Yet she is a lawyer, so she can't be THAT stupid... Some strange wiring in her head is going on here, if you ask me...
2
After listening to this episode of The Daily on my Spotify feed, I was so so impressed I went to find a comment section. Despite Ms Twohey’s baised questions and unprofessional attitude, Ms. Rotunno was able to convincingly communicate her opinions. I loved everything Ms Rotunno had to say, and I’m so grateful her insights are reaching such a large audience through The Daily.
As a 15 year old girl frequently traveling alone in Mumbai, I take responsibility for my own safety. Even though it’s not in my power to make Mumbai a safe city, it is 500% my duty to make sure I’m safe within it. Learning to be assertive, attentive, and careful are skills everyone should grow in this world.
9
@Molly
Cheers!
I have both a male child and a female child
they are each 100 % responsible for their safety
and i firmly believe that young men need a sexual consent contract to avoid being charged with a crime because a young woman blacked out and doesn't recall consenting either verbally or nonverbally --The issue of consent is controversial and intersecting with the alcohol black out is a perfect storm for a alleged victim to make a criminal charge. Female cops are biased, investigators are biased,prosecutors are biased, judges are political hacks, all in the name of believing the alleged victim - the CJS is not interested in the truth - they want to make a criminal conviction... Thank you for this interview - I agree 100%
innocent till proven guilty is hard to come by in the age of the me too movement.
4
I find it astounding that the US media and other important and relevant elements of American society talk about the importance of maintaining a strong democracy and to fight any efforts to undermine democratic values. The US constitution enshrines two of the most important values that form the foundation for a strong democracy: the right to be presumed innocent before trial and the right to a fair trial that provides the defendant the right to face the accuser and cross examine the accuser. The #metoo movement operates to undermine those core foundations. It has evolved into a movement that casts guilt on an offender while ignoring a person’s right to a fair trial. I agree with counsel for Weinstein: the feminist movement includes taking on responsibility and being accountable. This interview raises so many issues and discussion points and contrary viewpoints that require more dialogue. I do ask this question: how do you reconcile the fact that Weinstein is a person in a position of such power and ultimately control over the women who are now in that courtroom and factor that in to the circumstances of these cases that have come to light.
1
An amazing interview. I stopped the podcast halfway through and went back to the beginning to make sure I had heard correctly. Victim blaming as a legal strategy? Incredible
6
Listening to Donna Rotunno was like hearing an oil company blame birds or seals for swimming into an oil slick.
21
@MLE how can you compare women to birds?! We act only after thinking. The poor little birds can only act. So sexist... lots of smart thoughts a woman entertains before she decides to meet a movie guy in his hotel bedroom at 9 pm. However, her actions don’t necessarily give a green light to being raped! Only a psychopath would drive through a red light and thinks he s entitled to.
4
@MLE
Excellent. I fully agree and the comparison is absolutely illustrating very well what is wrong with Ms Rotunno's arguments.
3
There are men who rob stores and men who don’t. No one asks whether the store owner had enough protection. What people ask is whether they caught the guy. When a woman is raped or assaulted, we should be asking whether they caught the guy and put him in front of a jury. Not whether she was carrying mace/whistle/alarm/etcc. Its not her job or fault or responsibility
20
Would prefer it there was a transcript of this. Not everyone wants to listen to a podcast.
3
@Johnson
On my computer screen, just above the line where it says 'Listen', I see a button 'Transcript'. When I click on it, I have a complete transcript of the interview.
Do you not have that?
2
I do not think it is appropriate to ask a woman if she has been sexually assaulted. That is sensitive, private information for an individual to share as they choose. What a disappointing way to end a very thought provoking and professional interview.
4
@Frankie well, based on her fantasy world, the assumption is she had not been assaulted. The point, that if she had, she wouldn’t be taking this case, is relevant.
I suppose I am being ageist when I say that this lawyer speaks like she has had no real life experience (in other words, she has not lived on this planet long enough) of being female in American society in 2015 - 2020. She still holds true that if a woman acts in a way that Rotunna thinks is not prim then she is inviting sexual assault. I started to type more to this but have decided to refrain from stirring up more internal agita. In short, she speaks like an ignorant misogynist from a different (wayback) era and place. Maybe in the future her knowledge of law will serve to assist fixing the outdated laws on the books that she is manipulating to defend rapists.
13
It reminded me of a old folk dance that is danced in my country: the women must keep one foot flat on the floor at all times while navigating the dance with the other foot.The men dance around her by freely skipping and and kicking around.
1
Are we sure that's a woman? She sure looks mean.Just kidding folks.Its not funny when people are assaulted but I couldn't resist.She looks tough.
1
A consent agreement would clarify intentions in all potentially physical relationships. If prostitution was legal, perhaps this would be a different world but meeting a married man in his hotel room with alcohol and sexual innuendo is not a business opportunity unless you are a sex worker. Sex is transactional and contracts protect participants.
4
This episode was disturbing and triggering on so many levels, and I cannot imagine how Donna Rotunno is even a lawyer, considering she makes blanket accusations and statements and then denies even saying them SECONDS after the words have left her mouth. I have to give Megan Twohey a lot of credit for the poise and maturity she showed in this interview, because Donna showed little class or respect for victims of sexual assault. Women like Donna Rotunno should be ashamed of themselves.
9
This Rotunno woman is vile and her implication that victims, rather than predators, bear the responsibility for sexual assaults is an appalling full-on embrace of victim-blaming rape culture. Most attorneys are able to take on defense cases without espousing the defendants’ views; it seems that she took on the Weinstein case because she genuinely believes that her client committed no crime, and that is cringeworthy.
7
I tried to stay open minded while listening, I‘ll admit I was waiting for Donna to say something inflammatory. Even though I was annoyed hearing some of her tactics & spin, towards the end, I thought,“she could’ve said worse.” Then, Megan‘s one last question is where it began to unravel for Donna, stating she‘s never been sexually assaulted because she’s never put herself in a situation that allowed it! I actually yelled out in the middle of the street “And there it is!” while walking my dog. This was what I had expected to hear from her. And even so, I became physically nauseated & enraged hearing her reasons as she dug herself into a deeper hole.
While hearing her reasons, they started to pose important, yet what seem like ridiculous questions in my head. As Donna eluded to, women want equality and to be treated fairly amongst men in society, this has advantages & disadvantages. Truth is, women are still fighting for equal rights, pay and #metoo. To this I ask: Why do some men think they can act this way? Why are women held accountable or responsible for men’s actions? Why do women have to be on the lookout for a “bad” situation? Why should we even have to think that we could be putting ourselves in a harmful situation with a man? Do men carry mase when out on a date? Why are women constantly playing defense in our culture?
To Donna, whats your defense to women always having to be on defense in order to get through life, like you, never having been sexually assaulted?
8
Megan, I heard on news and through out this episode that women are questioned about the view of their actions.
I’m 51 now and long time ago , when I was a child. Between 6-9 years old , my uncle who was leaving in my grandma’s house and he was sexually abusing me. I never share that story with anyone. It happened for a while then stopped.i kept a secret to be ashamed then pushed that away from my memory until I was a married women and things come back to me . I had trouble to have a sexual intimacy with my wonderful husband and struggling.
To work with that problem I thought I don’t want to destroy my family
I had try to forget, explain, hate, forgive. To my own surprise I was behaving just like before, like nothing happened between us. When there was a conversation I would ask NORMAL.
You ask my why? I don’t know.
I wish I could come to conclusion and his apology because I learn to live and had try to forgive but the decision of this act of sexual abuse wasn’t mine and wasn’t right.i do believe those women because I also can’t explain why you don’t say things right away.
I know you trust people and you take a blame for more then you should and things don’t look good from the distance.
I hope he is find guilty, but as most of the things in life things with flip otherwise.
1
you hope a man is found guilty because of what happened to you when you were a child. Bias is a HUGE problem in our society with jury selection.
2
Wow. Just wow. I don't even know what to say after listening to that.
1
The end of this otherwise (almost) thoughtful interview in terms of how the court of law works absolutely ruined ANY credibility I (almost) had for Ms Rotunno. Sign a consent form prior to sex? What about the fact that SO MANY sexual assault and rape acts occur during sex with someone you know? What about the fact that ANY human has the right to ask to stop what is happening at ANY MOMENT? The fact that an otherwise intelligent woman would suggest this is the solution (rather than in reality a way to legally enable someone do do whatever they want with another once a form is signed) is horrifying. I'm speechless at what I just heard from someone whose role is to both protect the rightfully accused as well as the wrongfully accused. Victim blaming thinly veiled as feminism. Disgusting.
11
This episode is infuriating. While I can appreciate speaking to the other side of this case in an attempt to do well rounded reporting - this episode did not account AT ALL for the social and cultural capital that has been monopolized through transnational intimacy by men in power. This has become a social norm that disproportionately disadvantages women and has shaped interpersonal interactions between individuals of varying power dynamics. Donna Rotunno's assertion that "women have to own their choices" completely neglects the reality that most of these situations do not happen between equal share holders of that capital. Something she seems to know, as she is quick to refer to all accusers as 'he'. #MeToo was not some overnight phantom phenomenon. Very gender-specific circumstances over the course of millennia lay the foundation for this unspeakable injustice favoring men in power. Ms. Rotunno desperately needs a "Gender and Society" sociology class.
8
Wow. Megan Twohey, Bravo! You showed so much restraint in this interview. Thank you for striking the balance between holding this woman accountable for her statements and not badgering her. I felt trusted as a listener to make my own conclusions. This was a tough one to listen to. There was no hiding the point that Weinstein and his team posit that sexual assault is (at least sometimes) the victim's fault. Just wow.
7
While listening to this episode I found myself getting more and more enraged by Rutunno’s victim blaming . I was sexually abused in my early 20’s by my gynecologist while coming out of a general anesthetic from a procedure. Because I was not completely lucid, it was not until my doctor suddenly left the practice without any explanation almost 2 years after that I realize what had happened. Did I put myself in an unsafe situation?!?! He did that to me. I didn’t ask for it! Rutunno is part of the problem.
9
This is someone making lots of money defending & protecting predators. She sold her soul a long time ago & do we really care to hear what she tells herself in order to sleep at night?
4
I am beyond livid by the turn this interview took. How dare she call herself a woman actually!?? As a survivor who never came forward or will come forward years later because in “today’s world” men continue to get away with sec crimes against women. I’ve worked as a volunteer for Day One RI where I’ve sat with victims & held their hands during rape kits. Rape is about power and control NOT sex. Men like Weinstein lived this deviant lifestyle due to of his lust for power over the victims. This attorney made me sick 23:50 on...how dare she say the things she did!??? As a proud mom of a young boy who is being taught how to treat women & respect women he will know the blame does not fall on the victim. Just raise better men!
10
From a male perspective: she's so terribly, demonstrably, disgustingly wrong. And she knew it after she said it. She came across as an enabler of rapists. Which at this point, she is.
Despicable, and the public needs to condemn her.
13
Journalist keeps saying “so what you’re sayin is “ baiting leading very impressed with the lawyer kept her on a leash .
It's hard for this listener's opinion of unscrupulous lawyers who game the system to get any lower, but after digesting the guest's stunning rationalizations on this episode of The Daily, it struck me that declaring moral bankruptcy must be a prerequisite.
7
Listening while driving, I worked hard to keep an open mind during this immensely compelling exchange. I was lucky not to run off the road when Ms Rotunno said she had never “put herself in the position” to be sexually assaulted.
What a gut punch for any assault survivor listening.
Ms Twohey deserves all praise for the outstanding quality of her work in this interview, particularly her ability to maintain a calm and respectful stance right to the end.
19
It was disappointing how the reporter was clearly biased throughout the entire interview. I thought that most of her questions were leading or attempting to trap Rotunno into answering in a way that would provoke many of the comments left on this post. Freedom of speech is the most important right; we must respect each other's voice in order to hold onto that freedom. It felt like there was a lack of respect throughout the interview.
7
Like most who have written in here, I was astonished at Ms Rotunno’s absolutely disgusting comments with respect to women being responsible for their own safety. I wish the Daily had had the courage to allow a more skilled interviewer handle this piece or perhaps someone who is not so emotionally connected to the subject. No offense to Megan who has done such incredibly important work around this issue. However, I’m afraid Ms Rotunno took control of the interview about mid-way through and never gave it up. There were too many times when all Megan did was repeat what Rotunno said as in “do you mean to say...” and so forth. We already heard her say what she said, why wouldn’t you take the opportunity to rake her over the coals instead of just asking her to confirm what we just heard her say? Too many missed opportunities... I understand the “politics” of why Megan was given this interview but, in my opinion, I think Michael should’ve handled this one.
3
The interview with Donna R (Miss “I never put myself in a risky situation” - I am a good girl) revealed messages that should never been tied to sexual assault:
1) A woman is “asking for it” based on what she wears or her situation. This is a slippery slope that ultimately leads to women in burkas. This position is also insulting to the many men out there who are respectful towards women in *any* situation – yes, even if you go alone into their home/room based on friendship.
2) A woman who was sexually assaulted has behaved irresponsibly or in a disreputable manner. I hope Donna R doesn’t have daughters as she would be shouldering them with a heavy load of shame and guilt should something occur!
Donna R is representing adult women. How are these messages being received by teens? Despite surrounding ourselves with respectful men, most of us (except the saints who live in cocoons like Donna R) have experienced the bad ones at least once in our lifetime, despite efforts to be safe. Instead of disparaging #metoo, how about if Donna R reads the stories?
The kind of men who take advantage of women do so because they can get away with it. The women are too ashamed to step forward BECAUSE of messages like those from Donna R and they don’t want to be humiliated, or they want to be strong and not a victim.
At the end of day, men are physically stronger than women, so without a strong moral message to respect women and society demanding it, the behaviors will continue.
12
Thank you so much for this interview! I wondered how a seemingly competent and enlightened professional woman could represent this abhorrent small man. Now I know!
4
I tried extremely hard to be open minded to this interview. I understand that automatically believing every accusation can be problematic and that people do lie all the time. However this woman participates in victim blaming which the #metoo movement has worked hard to remove. I was blown away that Donna does not take into account all 90 accusations when defending Harvey. I appreciate that she is trying to do her job but I feel she damages victims, men or women.
8
I have listened to The Daily since day one and I have never had such a visceral reaction to an episode as I did today. This guest not only victim-shamed but insulted men by implying men are animals with no self-control. Only a lawyer would think it’s a good idea to sign a contract to engage in a sexual relationship. Even if you have a contract, both parties have the right to stop and say no at any time. I don’t disagree that at times the MeToo movement has gotten extreme but to imply that women attending a business meeting at a hotel or joining someone In their room or home means you are setting yourself up to be assaulted is ludicrous. I appreciate she is being paid to zealously defend her client but I sincerely hope she doesn’t actually believe the words she is saying. Thank you to the New York Times’ journalists for your thought provoking and engaging work.
18
Megan actually caught Donna in at least 2 lies.
1. Meagan asked her whether she considered the long list of accusers. In Dianna's answer was, that wasn't her job. She was limited in the case to these 2 women. But that wasn't the case before her. There were 4 other witnesses that the judge allowed for the express purpose of establishing a pattern of behavior. If Donna had made that statement in court, the judge would have reminded her of what the judge had ordered.
2. Donna said Meagan's book was one-sided and that journalists need to have skepticism when reporting. Just look at the title, "She Said."
When Meagan showed her that it was not in fact one-sided, Donna said, "I'm not disputing that at all."
Yes she was. She had just said less an a minute prior that it was one-sided.
This attorney shows no conscious ability to not lie.
9
I think a point is being missed here, and given the rage that many experience regarding this topic, it is understandable. My sense of this topic is as follows. If a rapist breaks into a house and rapes a woman, she is at fault = zero and the rapist is at blame level 100. When a woman gets out-of-control drunk and thereby allows herself to get into a dangerous situation, her fault level rises above zero. Not sure where the number is, that is for others to determine, but the female victim has to take some responsibility for allowing herself to become drunk and placing herself in harms way. Much the same way, if a person flaunts expensive and flashy jewelry, car, and throws around a lot of cash in a public setting, theft or robbery could be the outcome. The end result is that sometimes a victim has to share a little bit of the responsibility for allowing him or her self from getting into a bad or risky situation.
8
@Carlos Z. No one is responsible for the behavior of another adult. Every person, in any situation, has the right to his or her own body and not to be sexually assaulted. And people are not cars, jewelry, or cash. The attitude that anyone is “asking for it” in any way is shameful.
5
@Susan You really think that anyone should do whatever they want and not be held accountable?
I hope you don't vote.
@Jus' Me, NYT
I have the impression that you did not entirely catch the meaning of @Susan's comment.
The way I understand her comment, is that she thinks anyone is to be held accountable for his/her behaviour.
I was enraged by this guest’s comments.
Unbelievable to hear the argument that women put themselves (therefore choose to be) in a situation that led to sexual assault.
36
This is incredibly disturbing. This is victim blaming.
32
My mind exploded. Men are not lions - programmed to prey upon others at any chance. We have a choice and when we rape another, we are taking away the choice of that person. The raper and victim do not share equal responsibility. The suggestion of which makes me think that anyone who thinks that does not understand what rape or quid pro quos are.
I can't think of anything more romantic than pulling out a sexual behavior consent form before anything happens.
41
What did I just listen to? I went in with an open mind and left absolutely disturbed. I understand why it is scary for some that women are "just being believed". But, having the opinion that responsibility should rest equally on an assaulter and a victim is ludicrous. No one has any right to someone else's body no matter what the situation is. A women can run down the street naked proclaiming that she "likes it rough", and still, no one should touch her without permission (except law enforcement when applicable). His lawyer just affirmed WHY it has been so difficult to be heard in these situations. The burden of safety SHOULD fall on men... they have historically been the ones making situations unsafe. Why is it a women's responsibility to make sure all circumstances are safe for her? Why dont we get the stats for violence against women down and then talk about "equal burden"?!
29
@Ashley men burning women as witches at the stake as usual
3
I'm aghast that in this day we still have a woman blaming women victims for their own sexual assault. To hear Ms. Rotunno speak, women dare not go out into the world and mix among men for fear they may ignite some aggressive behavior that men cannot control. This sounds Taliban-esque. Thank you Ms. Twohey for forging through the mucky and the mire. I don't know how you kept your composure - I certainly did not.
33
I found the latter half of this interview deeply, deeply upsetting.
Rotunno’s position reminds me of an Upton Sinclair quotation which can apply to anyone: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”
40
@Ginger M. Money for nothing and the chicks for free?
2
I couldn't believe the things that this woman Donna was saying. The way she was expressing herself about other women. As a woman i feel very offended .She really believes Harvey is innocent and its the victims fault they got rape and assaulted .But of course she is Harvey's lawyer she has to be on his side.It was hard for me to finished this episode .
13
I tried very hard to keep an open mind during this interview.
I pray that Ms Rotunno never has to experience sexual violence against her, because not only will she have to deal with that emotional trauma but I suspect it will make her question her entire career and I imagine that will be as emotionally troubling.
I know for certain there is nothing I could have done to prevent myself being sexual assaulted. I wasn’t over trusting, I was sober, I wasn’t dressed provocatively and I took all practical steps to keep myself safe.
Her quip about signing a consent form is preposterous! Consent isn’t a one and done thing. You could literally sign the form and then something happens and you can withdraw that consent.
I feel like sometimes we aren’t moving forward at all. Yes we have things like #metoo and companies with pay equity schemes which surface level seem to show that things for woman are getting better, and we surround ourselves with people with similar views to us and then things like this come out and you realize the burden of stopping sexual assault is still on women, we are still paid less, we still do far more work than our male counterparts, we are less safe in our cars, receive less medical care and are still held to unrealistic expectations.
23
@Elizabeth awesome reply well said
3
@Elizabeth we are definitely moving back to the Middle Ages. Nigeria wants sharia law so they can stone women for adultery if they do choose. This is worse than a Dickensian society . Dickens wrote incessantly so it would stop. Apparently leaders quickly become immune to these truths when they smell their first whiff of power. If Weinstein, Bryant and Bill Clinton were gay, and they had affairs that tear down the ex psyche of a young male without vast amounts of money and with a reputation to lose and and them being wealthy and able to pay for lawyers and nda s and if need be smear campaigns, it would be the same. Abuse of power to bully their way into sexual favours. Yes bullies, your victims are more weaponized now. Can you be respectful with someone who is “so far beneath you “ ?
2
So when I was 23 years old and my boss pinned me down in his office, it was my fault for going into his office? This episode was extremely disturbing and very disheartening.
39
This episode is INFURIATING. The judgement that this woman places on women of sexual assault are ludicrous. Especially as a woman who has never been sexually assaulted. It is these judgments and doubts that women place on one another that make our society a hard place for survivors to speak their truth. Thank you for bringing this episode to light, despite the disappointment it brought.
19
@Very it is no good to be disappointed with reality. We need some positive energy here from leaders. Male and female. An erection does not mean it has to be used . If men / aggressive humans of any gender cannot commit to non violent communications about sex, and any other subject for that matter ( yes djt you are a failure at non violent communication) we could build robotic rape machines so a rapist can experience first hand what it feels like. Actually I was going to say they can rape a robot so at least they are not bothering a sentient being who has emotions.
2
There are always at least two sides to everything.
4
@Linda Camacho not when we see a serial offender who shows his crimes are premeditated time and time again.
6
@Linda Camacho
The only 'side' I see here, is that this kind of abuse has been going on for thousands of years: men (and sometimes women, but that's very seldom) in a position of power have often abused of children and other adults.
Weinstein is, like all of us, a child of his time. And in this our time, it still is an unwritten law that those in power can do whatever they want and get away with it, because 'the system' protects them.
That is, in my opinion, the only 'excuse' one can think of in the case of these sexual predators. They see it happen around them and think it is 'normal'. Which it is NOT.
that was disgusting. How Donna can say that victims must take responsibility for the act that they did not ask to be part of?
12
Sorry folks, but the witnesses testimony - as reported in the NY Times - so far have indicated to me that it is reasonable these women engaged in transactional relationships with Weinstein. Reasonable, but not necessarily true. Remember, that in our system proof of guilt is beyond a reasonable doubt. These women have undermined the prosecution's argument in my mind. Do I think Harvey Weinatein is a creep? A bad guy? Yes. Is he guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Not for me.
10
This was a shocking and disturbing interview. The lawyer discussed how these accusation can and will ruin a person and follow them forever. I understand that women have a choice but quite frankly when a woman is in a position where she feels pressured, afraid, etc she should not be blamed. I cant believe she would say, "I have not been assaulted because I would never put myself in that position." Are you joking? I take the train home sometimes and if its past 6pm its dark out. What am I supposed to do to not be put into a position where I'm assaulted? Should I stay home? Her comments on using dating apps and having men sign consent forms, what in the world?!
12
@Cynthia. Jodie Foster made The Accused for a reason. It wins an Oscar then everybody’s forgets about it, including, don’t shoot the messenger,Brad Kavanaugh. Fraternity gang rape needs to stop. Powerful people taking it force granted that’s powerless people want to make deals with them for sex and acquiescence and an nda needs to stop. Lessons Learnt is not a strong suit with our corrupt leaders. This is why’s we all still operate under a Dickensian legal system that’s blatantly favours the rich.
1
I have to echo others' comments. This interview was painful to listen to. The moment that my jaw hit the floor was when she said "I would never put myself in that position." The repeated blaming of women for the behavior of predatory men was disgusting and she should be ashamed of herself. This woman is a shining example of why survivors of sexual assault are afraid to come forward.
Thank you Megan, for being an advocate for all women and showing respect to someone who did not extend the same courtesy.
14
Wow. Donna is exactly the kind of woman I would expect to be a defense lawyer for Harvey Weinstein. She sees men/those accused of sexual assault as the true victims here. She both recognizes that victims are often not believed by their families, the police or doctors, yet she still argues as if false accusations are common occurrences. She says that not all victims of sexual assault brought it on themselves, but also basically insinuates that if women behaved as perfectly as apparently she does, none of them would have been assaulted. And her bit about sins and crimes? Talk about cognitive dissonance. Whew!
After that interview, I just have to remind myself that feminism is for her, too, and pray that she never knows what it’s like to be violated in such a horrible way.
17
@Rayven. she likes the the lime light And the money and prestige her profession is falsely given in society. We do not honour women for being care givers, pregnancy, breast feeding, etc. If we honoured women fir what they are , their biology, their emotional minds, the Weinsteins of this world would have a hard time trying to pay a woman for their silence
1
I was largely unperturbed by Ms. Rotunno’s characterization of her client’s behavior or her criticism of #MeToo. She’s a criminal defense attorney after all, and has to have her spin. The answer to the final question however, shocked me. I was groped in an emergency room by a medical tech after disrobing for treatment. My cousin was nearly raped by a trusted family friend. A girlfriend was (she believes) drugged and assaulted by a coworker who made a great show of “getting her home safe” in front of other party-goers. What mistake did we all make, Ms. Rotunno, other than having female bodies?
31
@S. Spring the mistake is we we’re were born on a planet where the male of the species have grabbed all the power since the Neanderthals. 100 years into women speaking truth to male power, apparently women can no longer count on badly needed leadership assistance because apparently we are in a “backlash”. We have become the inconvenient Cassandra, have we ? Don’t shoot the messenger.
1
It was a really interesting episode and one that made you want to listen to every word. Although Donna Rotunno made a few good points, I nearly fell out of my seat when she said she had never been sexually assaulted because "she would never put herself in that type of situation." Megan, you did a fantastic job handling this interview and staying professional while still holding strong on your stance! You are a great reporter. :)
14
I usually go for a ride and then take a shower, but after listening to Rotunno, I may need to take one before I leave.
7
While I kept an open mind in the beginning because false accusations do exist, I believe her argument quickly dissolved, and I found this interview extremely disturbing.
"I've always made choices from college age on where I never drank too much. I never went home with someone I didn't know. I never put myself in any vulnerable circumstance ever."
Ms. Rotunno puts the onus of responsibility on potential victims to constantly be wary and on the defensive. The entirety of the burden falls on women and never directly addresses why the perpetrator shares no responsibility in simply NOT ASSAULTING. There is a mental strain and anxiety in feeling like you constantly have to be on the look out. What kind of world is it if we cannot trust people? Often assaults occur not in dark alleys but by people we know and "trusted." Her argument was bewildering and disheartening.
12
I agree that everyone deserves a fair trial and has the right to tell their side of the story. I also acknowledge her point about women taking responsibility for their choices and to a degree I agree with her but she took that argument to another level that is just wrong. Yes women should take precautions BUT if a woman lets her guard down in a situation and she is then assaulted it is not her fault. Period.
I also took issue with her statement that it was ridiculous to believe that Harvey Weinstein had power over women's careers. He absolutely had power over careers and in many cases he did interfere and block opportunities to women who were able to escape his advances. Ronan's Farrow's book goes into great detail on how HW operated.
I also found her to be aggressive and condescending.
9
I enjoy the daily immensely and recommend it often.
It is good work that you do to include this position.
I also commend Meghan for maintaining an astonishing amount of composure while conducting this interview.
All of that, I was yelling expletives as I listened to this. People were genuinely starring at me. It is one thing to believe that all people deserve a good defense. It is another to blame women and call them responsible for being victims.
16
@Kriena Nederveen I thought my hair was going to catch on fire! I was yelling and swearing and using all sorts of bad language listening to this.
2
This was incredibly difficult to listen to. Donna's comment that "there is absolutely no risk for a woman to come forward now and make a claim. Zero." was especially unsettling. The idea that a woman has nothing to lose by coming forward is, in my opinion, one of the most critically incorrect beliefs related to discussions of sexual assault allegations.
Thank you to The Daily and Megan Twohey for creating a platform for this notion to be discussed and contested.
8
I never know what to expect from this show, but more often than not, I'm left picking up my jaw from the floor.
In what turned out to be a dynamic and at times terse interview, I was astonished at how M. Twohey was able to respond to M. Rotunno's answers, especially as Rotunno began to go after Twohey's position as "someone [trying to sell] a book." I walked away not sure who was more skilled: Rotunno as a lawyer in cross-examination and argument, or Twohey for her persistent focus and deft pivoting around the traps Rotunno set up to maintain control of the interview.
The conclusion to this tete-a-tete was stunning. In her own words, Rotunno communicated that the way for men to protect themselves from women was to enter a legally binding agreement upon the first interaction. Apropos for a lawyer who has defended over 40 cases involving sexual assault, but not so for a person who wishes to conduct business, personal or otherwise, in today's society.
I'm thrilled to listen in on what felt like a rare interview. I am disgusted at Rotunno's personal position (although I do agree that there are consequences to a criminal accusation, even one that ends in a "Not Guilty" verdict). Thanks to the Daily, I'll be thinking about this exchange for a while.
7
Let us see the argument of a woman's responsibility for being sexually assaulted applied to a different situation. John is a wealthy man, who likes to dress elegantly and to wear a Rolex in full view. He passes by a poor man, George, who barely can afford the food for the day. George assaults John because he is "provoked" by the sight of the Rolex. George can probably have food for many year selling that object. How would Ms. Rotunno defend George in court? Would she say that George was partly responsible for the attack, because he enjoyed showing off his wealth? Interesting line of defense that seems so popular in sexual assault cases.
11
This episode filled me with so much anger and grief. I’ve spent my entire career as a therapist helping survivors of sexual assault and domestic violence heal from the horrendous experiences they’ve been forced to endure. I also spent 4 years working directly with sex offenders and DV perpetrators, so I’m well aware of the actual causes of abuse and the common myths. To hear anyone say that it is the responsibility of women not to put themselves in situations where there may be a “high risk” of assault, is to blame the victim and ignore the fact that assaultive behavior is a CHOICE that perpetrators make. Period. They CHOOSE to engage in that behavior whether it’s within an already existing romantic relationship, during a one night stand, or against a vulnerable adult or child. It was ridiculous of her to suggest if she were a man she’s have women sign consent forms as if the issue at hand is a murky definition of consent. A man could still have a woman sign a consent form and then rape her so how would that prove anything? And for her to also suggest that the criminal justice system favors women and that prosecutors and police are AFRAID to not believe women is also completely false. It is also more common than not that victims will continue contact with their abuser due to the psychological effects of trauma on the brain (it’s in our deepest survival instincts to stay close to the person who has hurt us for fear of an even worse consequence aka Stockholm Syndrome).
26
I want to add that it was an outstanding interview. Thank you
5
This was a great podcast. Appreciate trying to hear / understand the other side. It was extremely hard to listen to, especially the second half. It made me angry and ill. So many things wrong with what she was saying. Clearly blames all women for putting themselves in these situations. She stated that it is why she was never assaulted because she didn’t put herself in that situation. I am in shock that anyone can have this opinion. I hope there are not many out there.
9
I have thought about this scenario many times and welcomed points of view by your guest. Why is it acceptable and correct practice to keep those who have been drinking away from vehicles they might try to drive yet we mute ourselves on other outcomes of this same excess. If a woman or man is a sexual assault victim while "under the influence" why is this circumstance not perceived along the same lines. Loss of control, impaired judgement resulting in assault (both sexual and otherwise) as an outcome is not engraved on our society in quite the same way. The Mothers against Drunk Driving have changed our driving culture and who of us does not use a seat belt? How and when will ideology shift to create understanding then change in activities that make us vulnerable. As far as having meetings in hotel rooms or private residences? Toss that out as an accepted practice ; mean it. Put it in whatever by- laws of unions need be. An "inappropriate" meeting in this new paradigm won't happen. Instead of discussions about what we wear, elevate personal responsibility first and not leave it as the last card we have to play when things get beyond our control. Honor ourselves first..whatever that looks like.
2
I went into this interview expecting to find Donna Rotunno's comments distasteful. I'm an attorney and I understand how the system works. But the interview went far beyond distasteful. Megan Twohey did a superb job keeping it together, as I was listening I had difficulty doing the same.
Weinstein is entitled to an attorney. That isn't in dispute but the things Donna said went far beyond advocacy. When asked if she had ever been the victim of a sexual assault, Ms Rotunno demurred and then said "I have never allowed myself to be put into that position" and that was when I found myself angry.
The idea she is putting forward dates back to a time when a woman was guilty if she was assaulted. That someone could express this, that an attorney in the public eye could say that she has not been assaulted because she made good choices and that all other women who are assaulted have somehow made poor choices is wrong and offensive in the extreme.
18
What a challenging episode to take in. I feel grateful for Megan’s thoughtful questioning and steadfast advocacy for survivors.
Throughout the evolution of this case, we have heard the defense repeat the classic refrains so oft sung to survivors - she shouldn’t have been there, she participated in the beginning of the encounter, she talked to him after, she knew him, etc - the list goes on and on. But the clinical evidence proves that these “defenses” are actually myths. A person will only sexually violated if they are in the presence of a predator. That’s it. Not because they did anything themselves to enact the violence. And it’s not uncommon for a survivor to return to a predator as a means of searching for some sense of control, some return of the power that was taken from them. AND most sexual violence takes place in ongoing relationships. How about an episode with a mental health professional to debunk these problematic myths? Bessel Van Der Kolk, author of “The Body Keeps the Score,” might be a relevant choice, or certified sex therapist, Dr. Holly Richmond, among many many others.
The truth is we still don’t “believe” survivors. Trump is still the president, even though he thinks it’s ok to touch any woman he wants, based on his own words. Kavanaugh got the gig. If we did believe survivors, we’d live in a very different world. One that I hope we are on our way to now, thanks to the courage of those who are raising their voices to say enough is enough.
11
This was extremely hard to listen to by the end. While I didn’t agree, I understood her position on defending Weinstein and how it’s her job to answer questions about what happened, specifically with the two women in the criminal case.
But what I cannot understand is her victim-blaming stance on sexual assault. She’s asking men and women to take equal responsibility and in the same breath says women need to “never put themselves in those positions” in the first place. As a woman who has experienced sexual assault, I can guarantee you that no woman would ever willingly put herself into that sort of situation. If I have a drink, go out at night, meet someone from tinder, or get into an Uber, why is it my fault if I am assaulted? Did I deserve it because I chose to live my life, rather than hide in my apartment? We’re not taking unnecessary risks – we’re simply existing in the world.
Why are you asking women to hold the entire traumatic burden of what is done TO THEM by another person, without their consent? The cause of rape is not how many drinks a woman had, or what she was doing, whether she knew the person or not, or what she was wearing. It’s rapists.
9
I am in awe of this lawyer, smart and visionary.
Justice can not be delivered based only on a woman's or man's accusation. Our justice system would be in jeopardy
There are all kinds of men and women, good and bad.
Each situation is different. She is talking about particular cases where women without hard evidence accuse men, many times years after, she is talking about cases where it comes down to "her" say. Even saying that in some cases, women pursue a romantic relation with their attackers after a supposed rape. Shouldn't we all allow to question this? This can't not be simply dismiss. We have sons, fathers, brothers, we can not allow trials to be ruled on one sided testimony.
Moreover, in other cases where there is heavy drinking by both parties involve and a legal case results from it; the man gets blamed entirely and immediately! but recent scientific evidence on black-out drinking found out it affects badly, women and men behavior equally.
Moving on, I would love to always hear both sides of each story. Feminism is fighting for equality, not heavier on one side of the balance.
4
@KATYA I'm glad you brought up the adverse effect of booze. In most situations that lead to unwanted sexual activity alcohol is the true perp.
2
For those of us who have been raped, in my case, assaulted in an elevator, during the middle of the day at my uncle’s Boca Raton high rise, this was really hard to hear. I’m finally getting trauma therapy after realizing, during the Kavanaugh hearings, that I was still traumatized. I would never wish what happened to me on anyone one, but to this lawyer, I would ask her to look at herself in the mirror. Like billionaires, those who have amassed great wealth seem to forget, they didn’t accomplish anything on their own... This lawyer defending Weinstein didn’t not get raped by anything she did or didn’t do on her own. And encouraging a society where people can get away with rape with impunity only makes it more dangerous for all of us, even those who have to live with themselves after committing this crime.
7
Seriously the most professional interview I have ever heard where the interviewee's beliefs were so off base or offensive. I'm not even sure I can find the right words, but absolutely outstanding job by Megan.
Very thankful the NYTs performed this and put the audio out through the Daily. I normally don't read/listen to too many articles around sexual harassment, but this really opened my eyes about what some people out there believe.
6
What Donn Rotunno is saying is this: "Don't trust anyone. Always be suspicious of everyone you interact with. Men cannot be trusted. Women cannot be trusted. No one can be trusted. Once you put yourself in that situation, you deserve whatever happens to you, because you did it to yourself".
That's some message for our children. We teach them to fear - instead of believing that, in general people are good and decent, and will provide help. We teach them that if someone else did something bad, it was their fault.
How is that right?
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@VC I think she is saying don’t trust women, get a signed consent.
Obviously Donna is not well versed in the idea of consent. Consent can be revoked at any time during an interaction. Signing a consent form at the beginning of something is MEANINGLESS if you decide during the interaction to revoke consent. Anyone who has done research that was IRB approved knows this. It is well documented in legal work. It's enforced in every university. It's used even on surveys, and non IRB research. Donna clearly is victim blaming. You can see how she mentally backtracks when she says something that places blame on a victim. I pray she does not have daughters or granddaughters who are sexually assaulted. Her tune will switch instantly. It's also obvious that she is struggling with patriarchal thinking that she's somehow better or smarter or more prepared than other women. It's a classic type of reasoning that allows her to navigate an extremely patriarchal space. The "I'm an exception rule". I'm the cool girl, and all other girls are dumb. Many children go through this phase, it's sad Donna never grew out of it. She uses the same reasoning victim blamers use with domestic violence and workplace harassment. And yet she argues that there are different types of assault and that it isn't always the woman's fault. It either is, or it isn't. If you leave your purse on a table and walk away, then someone steals your purse, it's still robbery. In the eyes of the law it doesn't matter what the victim did, because the crime is the fault of the criminal.
7
@Maya I finally realized exactly what you say about women who defend men who commit sexual assault. It also likely helps them maintain their patriarchal ideas of chastity; that their "pureness" protects them from the evils. Ironically, it is the men prone to assault who are admiring these women for protecting the "man's side" and the two characters are complete opposites.
I listen to the Daily every morning while getting ready for work. The interview this morning, and Ms. Rotunno's response and walk-back after the question about being sexually assaulted, set my hair on fire. The sheer ARROGANCE of her response was very upsetting; you can be in a 'safe' situation and still be sexually assaulted should you withdraw consent and your partner doesn't stop.
It shouldn't matter how you met your partner; sexual assault is sexual assault and she's judging people because they may have met on an app.
Victims are still being blamed for the actions of predators even by members of their own gender. And people wonder why sexual assaults in this context go unreported.
As disturbing as this interview was, thank you for conducting it. I hope it will lead to more nuanced discussions around the subject.
8
"I have not been sexually assaulted because I didn't put myself in that position," as comment coming from a female attorney for Mr. Weinstein not only shows prejudice against women, blaming us as a whole gender for being the major targets of sexual assault, but it also painfully indicates that his defense is willingly to ignore millennia of human civilization to win their case. It is not just embarrassing to hear this argument, it is actually undermining of his defense's credibility.
" Women are also responsible for not being assaulted" and "Some carry maces" are again arguments that contradict one another. If women can control being assaulted, since assault is the result of their behavior, how come they need to carry maces? Donna Rotunno in this interview is a living example of how people come to identify with the aggressor in an effort to feel safe in an unsafe world. It is also known as Stockholm syndrome, even when the experience is vicarious. Stating that "he will walk a free man" out of the court is another ill-founded premature assumption. Did Ms. Rotunno realize how much damage this hubris that is permanently imprinted on the www may have done to her client's case? Or is she looking to widen her clientele with others that will find themselves in the position Mr. Weinstein is today?
4
Good example of how wealthy people buy freedom in our justice system - hire legal firms to distort and muddle reality through intellectual acrobatics.
As if we need any more examples after Alan Dershowitz and Ken Starr's performance in the Senate.
Weinstein is NOT a victim. And to try to portray him as one is pathetic.
6
Honestly as a survivor of sexual assault, and someone who did not go to authorities, this is EXACTLY why I’m glad with not making a report. To tell someone it’s “their fault” because they went to a hotel room? How about it’s the perpetrators fault for not knowing consent. As a woman, I honestly don’t know how this attorney can sleep at night putting victims down, even though she claims she’s not.
5
I respect lawyers that have to defend for the opposition such as, rapists, killers, etc. I respect them when they set aside their beliefs & defend solely on the case, it’s no easy job, & someone has to do it. I appreciate lawyers that defend for these people since in SOME cases, the accuser is innocent, BUT this lawyer explaining women’s choices have consequences - I can agree, EVERYONE has consequences to their choices, but the "Me Too" movement is to raise awareness that men need to be held accountable. Women shouldn't have to live their life in fear & 2nd-guess herself in everything. I see her argument that women should have known that going to his hotel room something was bound to happen. If H.W. was notoriously known for conducting regular meetings in hotel rooms due to his schedule, which consequently happens so if any woman (or man) was told to meet in his hotel room to conduct business, & that was the normal. People shouldn't have to go to an expected meeting having any thoughts that result in rape or sexual assault. I can't get w/her reasoning as women for years have always been cautious, & that's a problem. It's not fair for me to go out w/ friends, but I can't let loose because there are consequences attached to "well what if I drink too much?" Men have no problem or fear instilled in them, so they're allowed to drink/party as freely as they want, they can wear whatever they want w/out being judged.
2
I was livid by the end of the interview. It must be beautiful in Ms. Rotunno's world. Cotten candy clouds in the sky, no death or disease, and no patriarchal hubris, privilege, or unearned and undeserved power. I wonder if she can see the unicorns through her blinders. Kudos to Ms. Twohey for keeping such a professional tone. I would have lost my mind.I was livid by the end of the interview. It must be beautiful in Ms. Rotunno's world. Cotten candy clouds in the sky, no death or disease, and no patriarchal hubris, privilege, or unearned and undeserved power. I wonder if she can see the unicorns through her blinders. Kudos to Ms. Twohey for keeping such a professional tone. I would have lost my mind.
3
Brava to Megan Twohey for her clear, thoughtful questions and composed responses. She was tough, incisive and above all, fair.
Ms. Rotunno's response to the last question (that she has "not put herself in a position" to be assaulted) is good advice to give a daughter. But as a legal position, it's a pathetic attempt to remove all responsibility from the perpetrator. Good luck with that in court!
And her advice to our sons, to get a signed consent?
2
Expecting a man to ask a woman to sign a consent form before an intimate encounter seems such a lawyerly idea.
How about showing some self-control, empathy and the kind of respect for women that any human being deserves?
6
This was one of the more disturbing interviews I have ever heard, on The Daily or any other platform. The remarks by Harvey’s lawyer Donna repeatedly blamed women. So what if she has to much to drink, so what if she goes back to someone’s home, men need to keep it in their pants and understand no means no, or read when a situation is uncomfortable. I cannot believe some of the the things she said, but to represent a monster like Weinstein I suppose she would have to be slightly confused on what’s right versus wrong. My jaw dropped multiple times, and I was honestly embarrassed that she is so backwards and truly believes the statements she made. Megan, I’m impressed you were able to keep your cool and be professional, because Donna’s victim-blaming stance was reprehensible.
114
That was incredibly hard to listen to. I kept an open mind, understanding her position as HW's lawyer. However, the second half of the interview left me feeling sick to my stomach. I'm very happy for Ms. Rotunno in so much that she has thankfully never experienced sexual violence, but was horrified to listen to her position as to why. Unfortunately, I believe her worldview is more common than any of us would care to believe.
85
@Steph I was astonished (!!) at this attorney's responses in the second half of the interview in particular. I agree completely. Wow. This is the first time a podcast has left me with a racing heart and wanting to scream.
7
While I agree that false accusations of sexual misconduct are increasing, the argument that rape culture could be resolved if women just simply stood up and told their aggressor “I’m not going to take this” and leave, or if women simply “made better choices”, made it very clear that this woman has never experienced a situation of sexual assault or misconduct. Oftentimes, it is not as simple as getting up and leaving. Oftentimes, one is not given the option to leave due to threats of violence and otherwise. I think her rhetoric is harmful and it reinforces the notion that instead of teaching men not to sexually assault, we we are telling women to think smarter, faster, and safer. She is arguing that we should be teaching girls/women to not get raped rather than teaching boys/men not to rape. Framing the act of being sexually assaulted as a choice women make just reveals how much work society has left to do in changing the culture Harvey Weinstein has found himself wrapped up in.
Conflating all cases of sexual misconduct with modern dating apps and being under the influence disregards the innumerable instances of sexual assault or misconduct that happen in very trusting, familiar settings. She is not always drunk and he is not always a stranger.
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@Si What actual evidence do you have to leads you to believe that false accusations of sexual misconduct are increasing??
1
Kudos to Megan for keeping it together during that conversation because I did not while listening! Very disturbing indeed. Women are not asking for it - no matter the situation they "put themselves in."
62
I went into this believing I would be angry with this lawyer. I came out of the discussion torn. I completely understand her logic and focus on this specific case and the evidence she has around these 2 accusers. I believe Weinstein is a predator. The question is does this specific case prove it. Her point on making sure everyone has a fair trial and the specifics of that trial prove guilt or innocence is critical to support especially in our current times.
12
@Joann Duguid You didn't find it reprehensible when she said that she has not been sexually assaulted because she has made good choices, and that any woman who is sexually assaulted by someone she knows has obviously made poor choices?
As an attorney I understand advocacy and practice it. This however went far beyond advocacy. Either she believes this or she's saying it in order to create controversy and heighten her profile in order to get more clients. Both are distasteful and wrong, and voicing the idea that women are responsible for sexual assault is damaging to all of us men and women alike.
4
@Joann Duguid: Did you listen all the way to the end??
@Joann Duguid the first arguments about fair trial I understood but after the assault question it got clear to me that she wants to punish women too
Thank you Megan Twohey for conducting this very serious and important interview. It was hard for me to listen to, but I agree with Kara- we have a long way to go. All the work you do is greatly appreciated.
8
Donna Rotunno started it so well. In a civil society everybody needs to have a fair trial. Even those that are guilty of the worst crimes. And this means that the attorneys play a fundamental role in seeking Justice with a capital J. All this was good and it is indeed surprising and absurd that many consider the attorney as being part of the crime.
Ms. Rotunno however slipped badly in the latest part of the interview. As if she is not even aware of the basic concept that "no means no". If a woman in the most arousing clothing, or without any clothing says no. This means no. Period. A man that does not respect this has the entire responsibility for his actions. So, here I am also appalled that such a simple and basic rule of civility seems to be unknown to an otherwise intelligent and well educated professional of the law.
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@SM You know what also means no? When a person is unable to give consent. (I.e. being passed out drunk.)
1
Thank you Megan Twohey for conducting this very serious and important interview. It was hard for me to listen to, but I agree with Kara- we have a long way to go. All the work you do is greatly appreciated.
7
A great interview and insight into the reasoning of a female defender of accused rapists. I was so impressed by Megan Twohey's composure and persistence and preparation. I would love to better understand what lies behind Rotunno's conviction. I don't disagree with her logic around the right to a fair defense, or even about her argument that women need to take care, but she sounds like someone on a crusade. Thank you, Megan, for raising the point that women can take caution but still be attacked. Also, there is a big difference between going home with someone you just met on Tinder, and taking a meeting with an extremely powerful man in an extremely competitive industry. I suppose Rotunno might say that if women want to be safe, we should give up our dreams of breaking into male-dominated fields, otherwise we deserve what we get.
47
@Jamie Right! If business is conducted in hotel rooms for men, without any fear or expectation of sex or sexual assault then the same should hold true for women. This is where Donna's logic fails
3
This was a great podcast. One of the best I ever heard. I applaud the Daily for this one.
7
Very much appreciate this episode. Whether we as a society acknowledge it or not, I suspect the views expressed by Donna Rotunno are widely shared across this country. Unfortunately, those views are too often ignored or ridiculed and rarely confronted in an honest, good-faith argument.
By not shying away from having that discussion, the Times shows a willingness to engage in a serious dialog on an important issue of the day. Ultimately, this seems much more likely to make a genuine change in our society than simply dismissing any opposition as unworthy of consideration.
27
@Adam P. No, I'm pretty sure we are dismissing the opposition in this case. Why aren't you? Donna said that any woman who is the victim of a sexual assault has made a poor choice. She was asked if she has ever been the victim of a sexual assault, said no, and added that this was because she had made good choices. I would question anyone who doesn't see the problem with that statement. You're right that there are still many people who believe that it is a woman's responsibility in nearly every situation, however those people are wrong.
4
Listening to Donna Rotunno made me physically ill.
Some of the questions I had flowing immediately were
In what realm of which world Weinstein's behavior is defendable?
Have we gone this far from what is right and wrong?
I couldn't help but notice that at one point in the interview Donna Rotunno's response was aggressive as to try to force the interviewer to back down, almost mimicking a bullying like behavior.
I agree that one should be cautious as to not put ourselves in dangerous situations, but; does that mean that we should live in constant fear?
Is this the world we want to create and encourage?
I think not.
31
I found this a model for the "difficult conversation." Two people diametrically opposed expressing themselves with complete candor, sharply exchanging thoughts and opinions, but always staying rational and respectful. Megan Twohey gives a master class in this kind of interview. And as anathema as Donna Rotunno's position may be, I give her credit for conducting herself intelligently and coherently. My mind was not changed, but I gained an insight into the woman and her views which allowed me to have respect for her (which in itself was a change of mind). Love the Daily, but this was a special episode that should be heard far and wide.
26
This episode is disturbing. It left me shaking. Thank you for leaving in the Q&A after the question, “have you ever been sexually assaulted.” Listening made me shake, but it proves how far we still have to go, and that women are still being blamed for the bad behavior of predatory men - even by other women.
131
@Kara Brown that was awful wasn't it. I was slightly
frustrated with her bad faith arguments during the main section but I could rationalise it, she's defending him, has a job to do etc. But the bit at the end was shocking.
26
@Kara Brown could not agree more—disturbing perspective-the defense attorney comments that she’s never been sexually assaulted because “I’ve never put myself in that position.” Victim blaming is a false shield and damages us all.
Hats off to Megan Twohey for maintaining her composure, asking tough questions and for continuing to illuminate just how far we still need to go.
50
I kept waiting for. the interviewer to ask, and if the victim were murdered in that hotel room, would it still be her fault? A crime is a crime is a crime.
12