Of course, the Astros lost every home game and won every road game in their series against the Yankees in 2019, exactly the opposite of what you'd predict if they were still stealing signs in 2019.
1
The Astros were outed. Doesn’t mean they were the only ones doing it.
1
Give me a break. The Yankees didn't care when their teammates A-Rod and Andy Petite were cheating by using PEDS.
That Hall of Famer Joe Torre didn't mind winning despite knowing they were cheating.
When the other team does it, it's cheating. When you do it, it's smart baseball.
3
The Astros should be relegated to the minor leagues for a couple of years like they do in professional football/soccer.
Let the punishment for the crime.
2
Altuve hit a 92 mph slider for a homerun off Chapman in game 6. That's a killer pitch because you can't sit on it when most of the pitches are 99. Did Altuve guess? Guess again. Players grabbed him as he rounded the bases, and he held his shirt down tight. Claimed to be extra shy. What was he hiding?
9
@Brian
Baseball players hit pitches.
That's a better theory.
For the record, Oakland A’s fans were equally wronged by the Astro’s cheating. The only saving grace for me is that every Astro player knows that on a level playing field, they would have been beaten by a bunch of young, hardworking Oakland Athletics. What I don’t understand is how we beat them so many times in Houston during the regular season. Did the A’s outfox the cheaters?
2
2017 ALCS. Houston beats the Yankees 4 games to 3 and goes on the World Series. All 4 wins are at home. Hmm. Failing to take the Yankees to the World Series, Joe Girardi gets fired.
6
First off, the Astros title is tainted. No way to dispute that. However that being said, the Astros won the World Series in Dodger Stadium after winning game 7. No camera there. Did they benefit from the stealing signals - absolutely. Has sign stealing always been a thing? Yes. Not dismissing it out of hand but let’s not overstate that the 2017 World Series didn’t have a decided home field advantage.
Secondly, Yankee fans should recognize that they initiated the investigation which prompted the 2017 memo by cheating with sign stealing themselves. Ask (google) Peter Gammons and Chris Young. Couple is with the admitted steroid cheaters and you have that proverbial pot and black kettle.
Ask former Yankee Brian McCann who went to the Astros from the Yankees prior to the 2017 World Series as did Carlos Beltran. McCann actually would walk the signs to the Astros pitchers whilst playing against the Yankees.
There is no joy in Mudville after all of this. But to universally label the Astros alone in this is poor form.
11
An argument can be made that teams that can spend the most are "cheating" in their own way. Without hard salary caps there can be no level playing field..
4
The history of sports is littered with cheats who have had their titles taken away. Olympic athletes, bicycling icons, the Black Sox, the entire Russian Olympic team just to name a few. Verlander recently joked about it at an awards dinner. They have disgraced themselves, baseball, the city of Houston, and hurt many teams and players in the process. Take back the title, give back the rings and all individual awards. That is the only punishment that fits the crime. How can the punishment for cheating, be a World Series title?
1
The Black Sox didn't have a title to take away. They LOST on purpose. North American pro sports have never vacated/rescinded a title.
1
How is it possible the conversation hasn't been more forceful to have the Astros vacate post season wins for all years affected?
It should be brought to congress to challenge the tax exemption status of MLB because hundreds of millions of dollars moved from teams couffers, player contracts, bonuses, marketing assets etc. This is a clear anti-trust violation. An argument can me made to pull the direct winnings from the Astros and distribute these funds to the teams they beat! What a shame.
1
No Astro player has apologized so far, only former Astros like Dallas Keuchel. (Remember all that baloney about Yu Darvish supposedly tipping his pitches? Hah.) I've always been against nullifying records and results in baseball for any reason (e.g., Bonds is in fact the HR king, period, end of story), but the Astro players' refusal to take any responsibility for disrespecting fair play and directly harming others, and their failure to give even lip service committing themselves to follow the rules in the future has me leaning the other way, for the first time.
Regarding the photo of Altuve and Chapman at the top of the page, is there any audio that captures banging on a trash can before that pitch, or more generally before any specific post-season pitch that got crushed?
2
@bob Actually yes. Check YouTube.
3
The Yankees and their fans aren’t alone. Dodger fans plan to attend Angels and A’s games this spring whenever they play the Astros.
2
I completely understand punishing the Astros to the point of stripping them of titles. I don't understand how that means others feel "vindicated". Resentful, sure. Vindicated? Knowing the Astros cheated doesn't necessarily mean the Yankees or the Dodgers would have won.
That's the problem with cheating--when the playing field isn't level it is impossible to quantify who won what.
3
I'm thinking of the 1919 Chicago White Sox, where players were banned permanently even though they probably didn't cheat. MLB has made clear that in Houston the cheating was player-driven. At the very least, take away these players WS-winning money; better, suspend them for at least a year, without pay.
I'm also wondering about the revenue lost by teams who were cheated by Houston. How much more money would they have made if they had gone further in the playoffs? If I had a dog in the fight I'd look for an attorney and file a suit against the Astroholes.
3
Yanks should be one of the last teams to be protesting. They must have short memories to have forgotten their WS win in 2009 bolstered by PED use.
12
If they can still call themselves World Champions, then the Astros got off easy as far as I'm concerned. Draft picks? Big deal. $5M? In baseball? Seriously?
I can't wait to see the Astros at Yankee stadium this year. We should all let them have it in our own unethical style.
2
When do the Yankees ever get a break! 27 World Series titles must be exhausting.
For goodness sake, ban the owner! And asterisks for all.
2
The only discipline that would prevent this high tech cheating is to void the Astros championship. Don’t retroactively award the trophy to anyone else. Just leave a void for that year with a statement reading “no championship awarded due to cheating by the Houston Astros”. I suspect that would quickly end this sleazy behavior.
6
I'm a Nationals fan. We beat the Astros. We won the World Series. Go Nats!!
9
I'm sure the Yankees are justifiably upset. It's not like them to let another team get ahead of them in the cheating department and they'd better up their game. How could they fall so far behind?
They long for the steroids era when things were so much simpler. You just bought cheaters then, you didn't have to actively participate.
7
The Yankees did not lose in 2017 because the Astros were cheating.
They lost because in four games in Houston in the A.L.C.S. they scored a total of 3 runs.
The Yankees and their fans (and I've been one since 1962) should stop their whining.
6
I don't pay too much attention to baseball. Last I remembered there was no salary cap in baseball, so anyone can purchase a world series as easily as one picks up a politician. The Yankees have always had the largest salary and so should actually win every year. When they don't it's probably because they are too busy being celebrities.
Cheating is as American as the President. This country is the cheat if you can country. So, the Yankees should stop their whining. They should take note of the successes of the "Patriots" and learn to cheat and get away with it, you know, like a good American.
5
Per the report, the Astros did not cheat in 2019 so the Yankees and their fan base have nothing to be indignant about other than what transpired in 2017
2
Gee, it's hard to feel too sympathetic for the Yankees, Dodgers, or Red Sox, the teams the Astros beat in the 2017 and 2018 playoffs. The Red Sox were sign stealing cheaters themselves, and Yankees were fined by MLB for cheating too, an allegation based on the club using bullpen and dugout phones to pass on stolen signs. And all three of those teams have used their market muscle to coerce MLB to allow their limitless bankrolls to make a mockery of competition in baseball. May not be cheating under the rules, buy when you get to write the rules on your own behalf, it's just like cheating.
Tough break, crybabies.
1
Tell it to the 1951 Brooklyn Dodgers
2
They should both lose their titles....anything else is a slap on the wrist.
2
Couldn't have happened to a nicer organization, except for, maybe, the Dodgers...
Nothing that baseball has done to the Astros or the Red Sox can possibly remove the sting of what could have been to the Yankees, Dodgers and even the players of the Sox & Astros who weren't cheating. Both the Dodgers and Yankee management had done their jobs and had gotten their best pitchers in the best position to bring home a title, but those pitchers failed because the batters they faced knew what their pitches would be. No self respecting Dodger or Yankee, player or fan wants a title based on being the victim of cheaters. But the notion that the cheaters get to keep the trophy and wear the rings while laughing at all of us is more than hard to take. Since MLB failed to render meaningful punishment such as vacating their titles, punishing the further wearing or display of their ersatz championship rings and baring either from post season for 5 years let me make a suggestion with deep New York roots. My suggestion to MLB Players is to use the Sal"the Barber" Maglie approach and throw at each and every one of them each and every time they come to bat. It's a real baseball punishment to not know whether each at bat will end with a baseball in your ear so let the victims deliver baseball justice to the cheaters.
1
Yeah, because the Yankees never cheat. Please...
5
How about STRIPPING a cheating team of the trophy and awarding it to NY? Why should the Astros keep their ill-gotten gains?
1
The Yankees? The Jason Giambi A-Rod Yankees?
1
So when is MLB going to wipe away the ASTROS WS win?
3
We are a species of cheaters- that's why nice guys finish last.
1
The Astros should be stripped of their title. This will serve justice and deter future cheaters
2
New England, Houston, Trump...win if you can, lose if you must, but, always cheat!
1
The Astros deserve a dead goat and a hundred years curse.
1
Make sure they tell A-Rod. And the little fat kid who stole Jeter’s pop out and made it into an HR.
Gee, somehow the Nats figured out a way.
2
2000 Clemens, Petite on steroids = cheaters who won!
2009 ARod on Steroids = cheaters who won!
2
My heart bleeds.
When is MLB going to wipe out the Astro’s WS win against the Dodgers?
2
I suggest that at the first seasonal game in their opponent’s ballpark, Houston send three players to the field to apologize. Otherwise they will face drumming, clapping, and whistling every time they come to bat. Do they have the integrity?
1
The Astros have been damaged, even if they haven't been adequately punished. Ordinarily, winning a WS garners respect and admiration, but in their case it now generates resentment and ill will. They knowingly cheated. Just like A-Rod and others will never be able to stand as proud as their accomplishments suggest they should, neither will the Astros be able to look back on those victories without some knowledge that they were not fairly won. This discomfort counts for something, and the individual players know it. In some ways, it is worse because they got off scot-free. The justice the MLB failed to execute will now be maintained by other teams, fans and public opinion. And this hurts, perhaps more.
2
@Alison Hmmm.... It's almost like you might be saying maybe the Yankees shouldn't be so proud of their 2009 WS. But funny how Yankees fans don't seem to see it that way while they yell at the Astros.
1
People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
I wouldn’t be surprised if other teams have been using this sleight of hand including the Bronx Bombers. With every team using technology to the max today, it’s hard to believe that the Astros and possibly the Red Sox are the only ones who did it.
There were games that the Yankees just tagged some teams that made me wonder. Then again, maybe their hitters were just that good.
2
And what about all those people who paid thousands of dollars to attend those games? They should file a class-action lawsuit against MLB and the Astros!
1
@Adam :
I would guess that is the same reason you can't sue even if your kid is hit in the head with a baseball and having seizures...the tickets have some phrase on the back about MLB having no responsibility....
1
It may not be possible to vacate the Astros’ WS title, but it is possible to prohibit them from displaying championship banners for 2017 and to prohibit them from referring to themselves as the 2017 AL and WS champions anytime in the future.
The league should provide ethics instructors who teach classes annually on what is and is not considered cheating by MLB. Every player on the 40 man roster of every team should be required to attend.
5
@Robert Hatfield Ethics training should be annual with everyone required to attend. That is how it is done in corporations large and small. It's easy to forget. Cheating changes...
4
There is no mention in the article of the main issue in the cheating scandal: that the Astros used technology at their home stadium to cheat, such as centerfield cameras and carefully-placed video screens.
One problem for the 2019 Yankees' righteous indignation is that the Yankees won the first game played at Minute Maid Park 7-0, and the Astros won a pair of games at Yankee Stadium - where their cheating technology was unavailable. Even the Astros' two home victories were hardly convincing, with one coming in the 11th inning and the other a tight Game Six. Not only that, but the Astro and Yankee home records were nearly identical throughout the 2019 season.
The numbers, combined with the Yankees being called out for their own high-tech centerfield camera, do not necessarily support such a one-sided retelling as this article provides. (Also keep in mind that there are still another 8 unnamed teams on the hot seat for similar behavior, so it might be premature for any team to point fingers.)
16
@Mike S. Not a Yankees fan, I presume... lol
@Mike S Also, the Astros were cheating. They didn't want to tip their hands with a series of convincing wins against an well-matched team with successful pitchers.
1
The Yankees can't voice too much outrage when we remember how they got to the post-season with juiced super stars like Jason Giambi, Alex Rodriquez, Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens.
18
I couldn’t agree more. If the aforementioned players were slightly more human. Perhaps other teams would have contended better. And perhaps Aroid’s millions would have been redistributed to reward more human players.
2
@NYer Ahem none of the aforementioned players were on the 2017-2019 Yankees. And I'm not sure that a victim of cheating has to be a saint to be aggrieved.
2
Why not use wireless earpieces so the coach can talk to the pitcher and catcher without the use of hand signals?
3
@Daniel
All the opposing team would have to do would be to find the broadcasting frequency.
@Daniel
Kinda hard for the catcher to "talk to the pitcher" if the batter is standing in the box.
1
If the Yankees suspected sign stealing for years, why wouldn't they change up their system, or go without signs at all?
Football teams regularly adjust to loud, hostile environments where the quarterback cannot be heard making an audible, or voicing the snap count.
Sure beats losing.
2
Why sign at all? Why not let the pitcher decide?
It seems to be a peculiarly USA approach top sports where the coach/catcher makes decisions that in other sports the players make.
@Lance Wiggs Different pitches move in dramatically different directions. If the catcher does not know the type of pitch being thrown he runs the very real risk of not catching the ball at all.
4
@Lance Wiggs I find it peculiar when someone could have asked a simple innocent question (Why not let the pitcher decide?) but instead felt it necessary to add a non sequitur for added measure (or as a subtle insult?).
Catchers calling pitches isn't limited to USA baseball. It's the way it's played in all nations (Cuba, Japan, etc.)
To answer your question, even at the high school level, pitches can be quite deceiving. Catchers risk missing a catch if he/she does not know the expected trajectory of a pitch.
7
@Lance Wiggs You obviously are not a student of baseball.
1
This lifelong Dodgers fan cannot forgive MLB for its reaction to the Astros’ behavior or for cornering the market regarding how to address it. Instructing the teams not to comment appears to be an attempt to squelch statements by anyone who believes MLB is attempting to punish just enough to seem outraged, but not so much that all the guilty parties pay a significant price, such as forfeiture of the 2017 World Series title. MLB’s approach may be sufficient to appear arguably legitimate, but it smacks of a strategy to protect the teams and the owners first, and protect the game second. Perhaps I should not be surprised, but to me it is very sad that MLB cannot bring itself to stand up for what is right.
13
Sounds like congress!
3
I find it laughable that the folks at MLB are careful to say that there's no conclusive evidence that the electronic sign stealing helped the two teams that have been found to have done it (Astros, Red Sox).
Does the fact that the Red Sox and Astros won World Series titles in 2017 and 2018 respectively while they are known to have been stealing signs mean nothing?
Vacate those titles. Fines mean nothing to these teams.
38
@WS
Exactly correct. In a few years the cheating will be largely forgotten or some counter-narrative will have taken hold about "everyone was doing it" or something. But the Sox and Astros will still have those titles in the record books.
Lance Armstrong's Tour titles were stripped from him and the record book just has no winner for those years, and that should be the final action here as well.
30
Strikes me that it would be simple enough to devise an electronic means for catchers to give signs to pitchers. Some small device with a dedicated bluetooth connection, for example. Both players could wear approved wrist bands or some such. Of course hacking would become a problem, but the signs would be well hidden from the opponents.
10
@Thomas And, of course, there has NEVER been a case of electronic interception of signals.
sign stealing has always been part of the game, no? the inclusion of high tech in the practice was inevitable. but i wonder how the tech part remained secret so long; did the astros never trade or cut anyone?
6
@cliff barney : sign "stealing" as previously used was always a misnomer: how can you "steal" a sign that was publicly displayed (even though the parties wished to keep it private)? What's changed is that now TV cameras zoom in and clearly project the catcher's sign and a few teams who monitor the TV, see the sign and then immediately signal the pitch to the batter on their team. So, technology has significantly facilitated what the prying human eye only very occasionally witnessed in the past. And the reason this relatively recent form of sign stealing was revealed was becuase an Astro player was traded.
6
@James Osborne And the use of technology was only available to the home team.
2
@cliff barney
It's kind of like the Mafia's code of silence. How many players reported that other players were using steroids?
1