Just a word to congratulate Vivian Yee on a very pleasant read, treating such a serious topic in such a light and witty way.
6
MBS is a murderer and a liar. So the murderer king is giving rights to women, little by little. I'm happy for the women. But the murderer is not doing it out of love, fairness or a sense of right and wrong. It's for money. His country is running out of oil and tourism dollars is his goal. The murderer is a welathy businessman and has a great PR team so the world smiles at him. Luckily, God is not blinded by meaningless wealth the way we are, and can see him as he truly is.
20
yes Saudi society is moving forward. Sadly, the US is moving backwards when it comes to women's reproductive rights.
14
Congratulations on Saudi Arabia joining the 19th century.
22
Samar Badawi and Loujain Alhathloul continue to be imprisoned for women's rights activism. Read their stories. Both have been tortured relentlessly. All for women's rights activism such as the right to drive. This is a cheery little article but what about these women?
22
I would just like to take a minute to compliment the delightful writing style of Vivian Yee. NYTimes, you have a treasure here!
4
So MBS is now forgiven with these coffeehouses and women being able to drive and less policing by the religious cops. I wonder who is financing these coffeehouses etc? Sorry to be so cynical and suspicious.
7
This anecdotal reporting tells us little to nothing. Hmm, women are allowed to drive now? Really, how many driver's licenses have been issued to women. I have heard in the few thousands-- out of a population of 21 million?! That is meaningless. So some coffee shop caters to wealthy Saudis who lived abroad. Answers begin in the millions not a few quaint anecdotes cooked up by some shills for the Bone-saw Prince.
13
I’d buy one of these ladies a beer.
4
Vivian - it’s great that things are relaxing a (very tiny) bit for the younger Saudi generation and hope that they continue on this path.
But, let’s not get carried away; the government allowing men and women to mingle, or watch movies (or roast their own coffee?) is no great feat. In fact, it’s not even close to being enough. I worry about the tone and reaction in the media to these minuscule improvements in Saudi, almost glorifying these changes and those behind it.
They have a very long way to go for their life to be anything close to normal
14
Yet more charm offensive from the frienemy, all calculated to sway American public opinion their way. They have one of the worst human rights records on the planet. They've done us no favors over the years in terms of oil market partnership. Their second largest export is terrorism. All they want is our military backing so they can be the dominant power in the Middle East. They need to do more than open coffee houses and let women drive in order to earn our trust and support.
19
To get the whole picture, I would like to know who the kitchen and cleaning staff are, their nations of origin and exactly how they are treated and compensated. Then we might have a better idea of how much “progress” has actually been made.
22
Important to have a little context, that this has nothing to do with emulating western freedom or any nonsense like that, they could care less about the west They are just recognizing that oil prices are never going to be what they once were, that to have a successful society women need to be able to work and get around, and that ALL of their neighbors in the gulf have lead the way with these freedoms decades ago and that they need to catch up. Nothing to do with anything except keeping up with the Joneses and recognizing that oil is not the future.
8
If Saudi Arabia's ruler is honest he would give the Shia in his country some human rights. He treats them with the utmost cruelty and the Saudi State do not see them as citizens.
Read any human rights report about what had been happening to Saudi Shia....
Of course their story is not in the news and never was in the news.
13
I mean who cares what is happening in Saudi Arabia? When they run out of oil their monarchy will crumble and maybe they will start over again as a sane democracy. It's really tiresome being fed these incremental change stories in the media. Saudi Arabia is a dictatorial monarchy with a legal code straight out of the middle ages. It is also responsible for massive war crimes in Yemen aided and abetted by our tax dollars. When any of that changes I might be interested in how may baristas are gaining employment.
24
Nice to see a woman with her head uncovered in public at one of these coffee shops, when ten years ago or less she would have been beaten to death in the street by an angry mob. It's hopeful that Saudi Arabia is finally starting to get over its patriarchal, overly religious society, particularly since about half of all Islamic terrorism is spawned by Wahhabism and Saudi money.
I wonder though if it's too late already. Saudi Arabia has no lakes or rivers, and the entire Middle East is dehydrating and heating up fast. These changes are welcome, but they won't stop climate change, and within a few decades Saudi Arabia may be completely uninhabitable.
Still, if they've advanced to the point where women are seen as equal to men, and their religious strictures are not being adhered to anymore, it will help Saudi citizens integrate into new nations when they're forced out of their own. So here's hoping for the best outcome, and the end of a repressive patriarchy.
6
This is truly great. So pleased to see Saudi Arabia finally reached 1800s.
21
However much the Saudis pretend to be open-minded, they remain a misogynistic dictatorship, with a huge loss in human potential (i.e. freedom for women to own their decisions, and able to say and do as they please [as men do]). Hypocrisy in action, with a sample of false largesse...but largely a restrictive society trying to become relevant, buying influence with their petrodollars (Ugh!), 'a la Trump'.
10
Free Loujain al-Hathloul!!!!
11
There’s no change here, just eyewash for gullible Westerners who see what they want or hope to see. Behind the screen, look for more state sanctioned murder a la Khashoggi, more exports of terror and terrorists, and more religious strife while our current administration plays patsy.
33
Lots of negative comments from lots of people who have never been to Saudi. Sure, you can point to a lot of problems, but you can do that almost anywhere.
Can more be done? Sure.
But don't dismiss what is happening in this country. The change is truly remarkable.
73
Easy to say if you are a white and blond holds US, Australia, NZ, Canada and UK passport, yeah for sure better treatment for you. But for those people from Asia, it is much more difficult. Compensation is not based on competency but rather from which country you from. Racism is rampant.
38
@Mark
Saudi Arabia requires structural changes, not just cosmetic ones to make the West feel good.
Please take a look at the Human Rights Watch report to understand the continuing abuses.
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/saudi-arabia#58df9a
32
@Mark
The "change" is not a change. Just a minuscule easing of the more horrific actions of this backward nation's religious police force. It doesn't take a trip to Saudi Arabia -- or any other Islamic spot on earth -- to know it's not a place for today's decent human beings. But...glad you enjoy it.
30
This just in !
Saudi Arabia has moved from the 8th century to the 18th century !
Heckuva' job, medieval monarchs.
Religion ruins everything.
72
Women have the right by law to get divorced from their abusive husbands if they wish so and remarry to someone else this law has been active for more than 1400 years in Arabia.
Can anyone specifically tell me when did you give that justice to modern women in the west?
2
@WFZ
Also, a woman's testimony is half that of a man!
Isn't that true as well.
11
@WFZ A woman can only obtain a divorce with the consent of her husband or judicially if her husband has harmed her. In practice, it is very difficult for a Saudi woman to obtain a judicial divorce.
I won't even get into the fact that men can have multiple wives...
17
Not only can women not divorce their husbands without their husbands' approval, but in the West, women can readily divorce their husbands, particularly if they're being abused. There is not a single example of women having more rights in Saudi Arabia than they have anywhere else in the world.
13
Drink all the coffee you want, but if you criticize the government, even a little bit, don't go to Turkey. Saudi Arabia is a wonderful ally isn't it? The shooting at the military training center comes to mind, 9/11, the endless war in Yemen--but no matter, we'll fight a war with Iran and who cares what the reason is?
18
If I am ever a tourist to the region again, I would pick Iran over KSA. Iran is much prettier, has a richer culture, it's people are more educated and not lazy like Saudis.
Saudi Arabia will be like Venezuela in 20 years or less.
21
This is great news!
Saudi Arabia is finally coming out of the Middle Ages.
Looking forward to them rejoining mankind in the 21st Century.
6
@AutumnLeaf
It's only a 1000 plus years for Saudi Arabia to catch up with the rest of the world....
Way to go...
7
Yeah, that's great change. Wake me up when women - or anyone, for that matter - gain the right to vote their completely corrupt governing theocratic oligarchy out of office.
15
@Andrew
Classic, reads great news, has to take a giant ... on them.
This is good news for the Saudi people.
It's either changes like this, or an Arab Spring, and I prefer to see this than blood on the streets.
3
Let's be honest.
Mohammad bin Salman is only opening things up because he knows his country is falling behind, stuck in the dark ages. His men are spoiled and entitled, given monthly checks for decades. Many are untrained and unwilling to work.
He wants his "appearance" to the world to change. He STILL will not release the women that he locked up in jail for DRIVING CARS.They are being raped and attacked. When will he release them? When? Then they could go to coffee, too.
He took a bone saw to Jamal Khashoggi.
His country forces minorities from other countries to work for near - nothing. Many women, even in these photos, are still covered head to foot in black to make them invisible and to keep them controlled. One woman is holding a veil over her face.
Women still have no rights, they are still oppressed. They can only vote in one minor election.
Yes, isn't it wonderful that women and men in a few cafes can drink coffee and work together, but when will these rights be all over Saudi Arabia? When will MBS speak forcefully for change so women in SA are not possessions and prisoners in their own country? When will a woman be able to board a plane without a pass written by her son or her husband?
These are easy changes to immediately instigate, but he hasn't. There are still religious police. Freedom of press, religion and speech is not allowed. He wants the US to fight his wars. He is bombing Yemen.
Don't forget who Mohammad Bin Salman is.
246
@Katie
There are no human rights for non-Muslims, gays, lesbians, queers, foreign workers, those who support democracy and equality and the freedom of the press. Period.
70
@Katie FYI - Women can travel without the permission of their male guardian now....the royal decree was announced several months back. Women can also get passports and leave the country, simple as that. And the religious police have been off the streets and are nowhere to be found for more than 2 years now.
Sure, more can be done, but you got to start somewhere.
10
@Mark This isn't quite accurate. The new regulations do not positively affirm the right to travel abroad, leaving open the possibility that male guardians could seek a court order to restrict female relatives’ travel. And as of August, the online and mobile platform Absher, which Saudi citizens use to request or renew passports, has not been updated to reflect these changes. Further, women activists who have peacefully sought these changes remain in prison or on trial for their women’s rights activism.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/08/22/saudi-arabia-travel-restrictions-saudi-women-lifted
22
The most repressive, racist, lawless country for immigrant workers. Simply ask the millions of Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, Filipino workers in KSA. Big business, big companies, small business, employed workers and don’t pay salaries, this is a chronic issues affecting hundreds of thousands of immigrant workers. KSA always taking advantage of Muslims from poor countries “forced” by circumstances of life. Workers are slaved and abused in every aspect of life while living and working in KSA.
216
@RBR Absolutely! I worked at Aramco and treated like a king. But if I was a laborer - it is simply slavery.
24
@RBR Whenever I hear about the KSA, I remember the conversation I had with a well-travelled professional woman on the plane. She told me that she enjoyed almost every country her company had sent her and her views almost always soften once she got to know a country better. She was also used to adjusting the way she dress, spoke, move, etc. to a country's norms. The only country she truly disliked was the KSA, for the way they treated women.
9
This is the wave of the future. For all its perils and pitfalls, the internet may yet turn out to be the single biggest liberator of humanity. Prior to the information age, the monarchs, despots, autocrats, and theocrats of the world could restrict access to information, lie to their people, indoctrinate them in the absence of competing ideas, steal their money, and keep them imprisoned behind checkpoints. Restricting access to information was mission critical for maintaining power. Those days are over. You can't keep a good idea down --- and freedom just so happens to be the best idea ever. The clock is ticking in N. Korea and middle east. We will win, eventually. The information age will be the death of authoritarianism.
4
SA is still a medieval society led by a despot. 9/11 and Khashoggi blood on their hands. Can we stop romanticizing this regime and start taking advantage of US energy independence?
18
True progress will never come until the Monarchy hangs for their crimes.
5
In the first paragraph, you write:
"Usher and Akon rapping to sold-out crowds!"
Neither Usher nor Akon are rappers. They are both singers. Not all black musicians are rappers...
15
And the irony of the article being about things getting better...
5
It is interesting that not all of the "common" people are on board to the public mixing of sexes. Apparently these cultural and religious patterns are more deeply ingrained among the population than just with a few aging ayatollahs.
2
Did you take a look at the journalists who disagree with them? Or the death penalty applied to the people who followed the orders? Once that changes we can discuss coffee houses which are kind of lipstick on a pig.
6
The gushing tone this "reporting" is also a reflection of US backwards attitudes. No European newspaper would dare put a positive spin on such a story...
11
Is this a commercial? Are we all supposed to oooh and ahhh at the progressive nature of one of the most repressive regimes on the planet? Wow a coupld women can walk in normal clothes and get a cup of coffee. What next, driving? The killers of a Washington Post reporter and they who sent the animal to Florida in yet another Saudi perpetrated terror attack on US soil should stop trying to appear as anything other than the murderous, stiflingly repressive "government" that they are.
27
True political dissent and freedom of speech is obviously not allowed - State sponsored murder being a prime example. However, due to a very young population MBS has recognized that to keep the lid on he needs to allow some social changes. Over time there may be less social repression. This doesn't mean there will be less political repression - China is a prime example of this. One comment that should be emphasized is that the young population is supremely "bored" - without the need to work, or ability to work for many young women- bored people might take to agitating for political change. It's better for the dictatorship to distract them with upscale coffee shops and allowing young men and women to mingle socially. I'm sure MBS has made a calculation to this effect.
17
@dairyfarmersdaughter Absolutely MSB has made the calculation that if the populous is preoccupied he is free to continue the State sponsored murder and all the torture of protesters in prisons, especially women.
11
MBS doesn’t even have a university degree....but he does have a penchant for oppression.
4
@Nick Prince Mohammed holds a bachelor's degree in law from King Saud University.
1
Is this an advertorial? Is this intended to make us feel better about spending our tourism dollars in a repressive, authoritarian state where half the population is denied autonomy? I see pictures of a few women in coffeeshops. The bigger story is the number of women's rights activists who are currently in jail.
71
The introduction of coffee houses in Europe in the 17th century led to the mixing and generation of new political thought and in hindsight were focal points for the spread of what we now call "Enlightenment values". And so the tradition continues in Saudi Arabia. There's still enormous challenges to women's freedom and mass repression by the government (FGM, executions of "degenerates"), but it's important to celebrate these small victories.
6
It is a cause for celebration for Saudi women (who are catching up with other parts of the Muslim world).It's about time that this happens, of course.
However, let me point out that not so long ago there were plenty of places in the US and Canada, including McSorley's tavern in NYC, that had separate entrances for women.
Society moves slowly, and then, wham, rapid changes can occur.
4
Is there a freedom of speech, assembly in SA? We all know how MBS (Mr. bone saw) at his behest, killed, dismember, a US Resident and Washington post journalist. Few coffee houses here and there do not change the underlying repression in SA.
15
Saudi Arabia has moved from the 11th century to the 12th (a small smattering of applause is heard from the back of the room...)
The US is moving from the 21st century to the 18th (snores can be heard...)
37
@Space Needle
I was going to write something, but I cannot match the perfection of this post.
7
I do not expect to visit "the Kingdom" in my lifetime. Especially a regime that conveniently looks the other way while allowing radical Wahhibism to proliferate and propagate hatred; a regime that promotes proxy groups and terrorism just as much as Iran in their ever increasing sectarian violence; a regime where a crown prince and his security force dismember and dispose of their enemies. How many of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi? They weren't sipping lattes as they crashed into the towers.
Don't be fooled by the glossy photos of espresso sipping hip Saudis. Perhaps NYT can publish, without too much effort, the real Saudi Arabia as seen on smuggled film on the recent Frontline documentary.
41
Fundamentally it is not right to have power amassed by a few. That will never lead to progress - the people should fight for their freedoms; not just freedom to drive or socialize - but freedom as a human being.
12
If your country considers women driving, men and women going to cafes, going to a movie theater, going to a concert as “reforms” or as accomplishments, then your country doesn’t belong in the 21st century world. Just how low do we want to set the bar for Saudi Arabia? Does Saudi oil, weapons purchases, alliance with Israel, opposition to Iran (but not willing to fight back even when Iran attacks Saudi oil facilities) make it all worthwhile/acceptable?
How many articles will NYT keep publishing on the fake “reforms” by MBS?
And the brave Saudi women who actually fought for that ridiculously overdue right for women to drive are sitting in jail, physically, psychologically, emotionally, sexually abused by Saudi authorities on orders from MBS.
Please, at least, write as many articles about those actual reformers than MBS’ fake “reforms.”
Please publish this comment.
64
Wow. Who knows, in another 20-30 years Saudi may hit the 1700s. In the meantime the rest of the world will continue to leave SA and the rest of the Middle East in the rear view mirror as it has for a millennium.
26
Saudi Arabia, the originator of the mentality of 'the beatings will continue until morale improves.'
14
So women are being treated almost like human brings - big deal
26
@WJ How novel. It does not take much to amaze the average American it seems.
4
Yep, those coffee houses sure balance out the Khashoggi murder.
44
@Glenn W. and the recent beheading of a Shia teen whose crime was receiving texts about a protest.
15
I lived overseas in the late 60s and the 70s. I lived in Turkey for a few years and it was very western. Women were very fashionable and wore short skirts. I also remember it was the same in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. I’m not sure about how women were treated in their homes and what restrictions they did have, but at least they were free to mingle with men and wear what they wanted. Some women wore the more traditional clothing.
3
@Kb I travelled in Afghanistan in 1973 and except for a rare woman in Herat or Kabul all women wore tents with only a grail to see out of.I visited a few homes in Kabul and wife or sisters would would have on western clothes and interact with me as if I was home But not on the street.
2
@Lee Pearson It may have been in the 60s. I have seen pictures. They were not as fashionable/ modern as Turkey, but they they were definitely wearing Western clothing.
3
@Kb
In my travels to the KSA, I have never seen "short skirts" in public. In private homes and some upscale hotels sometimes.
2
Saudis alone determine their pace of change. Decades ago, when I lived there for nearly 9 years, it was women-only banks, owned by women, staffed by women with women only customers. Before that it was introducing education for girls, then advanced education in women-only universities, now I understand there are coed universities, and many women are able to drive to jobs in workplaces where both sexes work together.
Easy to criticize the Kingdom, as well as many other countries, but the times they are a-changing, probably family by family, older aunt or grandmother or father at a time. My experience was that Saudis placed a high value on stability and their religion, but Saudis are well-exposed to how most of the rest of the world lives, and their society is seeing changes daily. Thank you, New York Times, but tracking the changes!
6
The Saudi rulers aren’t interested in modernity. They are interested in maintaining power same as all regimes in that part of the world . If they have to give a little to maintain, they’ll do it, but it’s a cynical exercise at best.
9
Well, good news, as far as it goes. Isn't this sort of the long hoped-for result of the battle of "Jihad vs. McWorld?"
I continue to be irritated by the double standards of western commentators. We are consistently told America was founded on evil grounds and has been a force for evil in the world and to its own citizens (not an exaggeration - many commentators clearly believe the USA is the worst development in modern history, founded on slavery, genocide, rape, hatred, and war), yet, perhaps out of a fear of being labeled cultural imperialists, they look the other way at the virtual enslavement of women, FGM, and so many other objectively more violent ills perpetuated in these countries against their own people.
I have long suspected it comes from a subconscious belief in their own civilized superiority compared to "primitives" from whom they expect much less, and for whom they make many excuses.
5
For those who are encouraged reading this article, read the article about how dangerous it is being an artist in Afghanistan in today's NYT.
7
Women are allowed to work in coffee houses in Saudi Arabia now?? How progressive. Maybe in 30 years women will be able to read books there too!
15
absolutely LOVE the photo of the 4 Saudi women in front of the portraits of Saudi kings - fully clad, down to the face coverings/veils.
Yep, they sure look liberated to me! Please......this remains a very backward/non-modern society.
35
If a Saudi woman says something negative about bin Salman on Twitter, she will put in prison, and she will not be give iced matcha.
16
Great to see this progress but they have a LONG way to go. Are the Saudis still funding terrorists around the world?
Of course, America is far from perfect too. The total disaster that is Trump has fanned the flames racism in America and shown us we still have huge problems on that issue. He is also fanning the flames of far right white nationalists, who are also intensely antisemitic. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but now we are seeing murderous attacks on Jews in America. Great again? Think again.
8
My wife and I lived in Jeddah, 1982-85, and both of our children were born there. We travelled by car up to the Jordan border, and almost to the Yemen border, and encountered the legendary Arab hospitality everywhere we went outside of the large cities. We also went, by air, to Egypt, Jordan and North Yemen during that time, and continued to learn about and appreciate the Arab Culture. Shortly after 9/11, we wanted our children to see what we loved about the area, and the people, so we took them to Jordan for 10 days.
The changes described would have been unthinkable to us back then. I hope the bored and often underemployed youth can find purpose in their lives.
8
Too many commenters seem to only be encouraged by an ultimate end result. I think that's "satisfaction" and not "encouragement." Little changes are encouraging and their effects are rarely predictable. I for one, see desegregated Western style coffee house a great place for thought provoking conversations to be had.
9
@Yuseph
...only if mullahs and Mutaween, (the religious police) allow it. Any society where leaving religion is a crime punishable by death has a long way to go.
6
I am very glad to see Saudi young people exploring their options and the government giving them space to do that. I'd prefer it if that same government could do something to create that space other than exporting jihadist thought to get it out of their own backyard.
6
I'll be "heartened" when Saudi Arabia stops assassinating Washington Post reporters and their colleagues worldwide, not a second before.
144
A classic example of whataboutism and the nirvana fallacy. One can be heartened about positive change without forgetting that there is still a lot of room for more progress.
34
@Math Professor It isn't "whataboutism" to make the very straightforward point that drinking co-ed coffees is hardly evidence of any sort of equality or human rights when a reporter can be hacked to pieces with a bone saw.
9
Keep in mind that the Enlightenment in England was shaped to a good extent by the coffee house, first in Oxford and then London; the public sphere where politics were discussed. Surely, it was a male dominated affair but women were permitted, which resulted in greater parliamentary influence; hence increased liberal policies...
28
@Nicholas I was thinking along the same lines. In other parts of Europe, too, coffee houses were a factor in enlightenment and secularization. It was a place you could read newspapers and discuss new political movements and ideas.
6
Keep in mind that the Enlightenment in England was shaped to a good extent by the coffee house, first in Oxford and then London; the public sphere where politics were discussed. Surely, it was a male dominated affair but women were permitted, which resulted in greater parliamentary influence; hence increased liberal policies than under (previously absolute) monarchy.
6
As a U.S. diplomat who served in Riyadh 1992-95, I could only have wished to see the social changes reported here. Segregation on the basis of sex was the rule in all things, enforced by "religious police," and even at fancy Saudi weddings, guests were divided into male and female sections. I once had a brief conversation with a young Saudi woman at a diplomatic reception, she was university-educated, and surprised me with a forceful argument that things were beginning to change inside Saudi families, where women were starting to put their feet down and stand up for themselves. Now, women can drive and travel more freely, without a male guardian or father's permission, and young Saudis can mingle in a Medina coffee shop. The government is even trying too promote tourism.
Here in the U.S., the Equal Rights Amendment could finally be ratified soon.
115
The Equal Rights amendment is fine but note that it will require all girls and young women to register for selective service.
8
@CJT And your point? Israel has always drafted men and women.
31
@CJT
I am fine with the idea that young women will have to register for selective service. In fact, as the mother of a young man who had to register, I have often wondered why there had not been a lawsuit over this gender-biased requirement.
This has been particularly top of mind as pundits have raised the specter of re-instating the draft in the wake of Trump's recent actions in the middle east.
Mandating inclusion of women in the draft may be the only way to control the pro-war proclivities of Trump's cabinet and force a real dialogue and commitment on the part of the American people before our children are sent into harm's way.
Trump's evangelical base in particular would not sanction female warriors, which would effectively control his ability to act.
23
These are all welcome developments, except one: the absence of Arabian coffee with dates. Don't through the baby out with the bathwater, folks.
91
@S North Smorgasbord, I'm an over-subtle bourgeoisie wannabe as well
3
Experiments have actually proven that you can throw the baby out with the bathwater so long as you have a screen door, securely latched, as the bathwater will go through the screen but the baby will bounce off and remain indoors.
9
I was a civilian in Dammam Saudi Arabia in 1991. All women in public were totally covered. Many wore the veil that screened even their eyes from view. There were no unaccompanied women in public. An all male contingent of my group walked around town and we were quite obviously trailed everywhere we went by a cadre of religious police. The entire city came to a complete halt at prayer time. To me, as an American citizen, is was very uncomfortable. The next day we went to Kuwait, which had just been liberated from Iraqi occupation. The difference was shocking. Unaccompanied women. Women wearing token head coverings. Women driving. No religious police. Traffic moving during prayer time.
Here we are 30 years later and the freeze on Saudi culture is just beginning to thaw.
100
@ML Frydenborg MSB keeps the populous preoccupied so he is free to continue the State sponsored murder and all the torture of protesters in prisons, especially women.
19
@Jacquie Well better some change than none.
3
@ML Frydenborg
A lot has changed since 1991. In Damian, that is. And in Riyadh, Jeddah... In the northern provinces not so much.
2
Finally Saudis are finding out that the world has changed, now Saudi women can drive and can sit together with men to have coffee. What a change for 21st century in Saudi Arabia!
17
Look at the men in their casual Western clothes, looking comfortable and happy. And look at the women, swathed in their stifling robes. That says it all. I’m curious, however, how that young woman was able to go out in public without a head scarf?
77
@Kan As I was reading this on the top of the NY Times website, I imagined a squad of religious police blowing whistles and waving batons rushing into this coffee shop, thanks to the publicity, smashing coffee cups and pastry cases and carrying some of these young people off the jail.
Hopefully they'll be able to keep enjoying this small taste of freedom.
9
Good morning good to see these social barriers coming down but im not a fan of this dictatorship
39
@Miroc How about neither? But why would you bring this up? There's nothing in this piece about Iran. We should never forget that 9/11 was funded with Saudi money, organized by Saudi masterminds, and that 19 of the 21 terrorists who attacked us that terrible day were Saudis. Maybe it's going to take a long time, but I would rather see men and women mixing in Saudi coffee shops much more than seeing Saudi agents killing and dismembering a prominent journalist, a US resident, in the Saudi Embassy in Istanbul, which seems to be Saudi business-as-usual.
71
@Miroc You are kidding, right? Women and men have far more social freedom in Tehran than anywhere in Saudi. And more political freedom too, for that matter,,,,,,
15
This is the consequence of 60% under the age of 30. Either you change or get out of the way.
49
It is unfortunate that it was an all women’s coffee shop that decided to do this, in my opinion. It is nice for Saudi women to have a space. There seems to be no end to the number of ways to destroy the concept of women’s spaces.
12
@Raindrop Typical American attitude trying to police what people in other countries do with their own agency.
7
@Raindrop This comment betrays a lack of understanding of Saudi culture and how it has limited women's opportunities in the past. Mixed-gender spaces are still the relative exception to the rule, and Saudi women are decidedly not lacking of places to spend time solely with each other. Their problem is the opposite -- they're still largely prohibited (culturally if not legally) from congregating in the same spaces as men.
10
@Raindrop: Don't worry, it looks as if plenty of spaces are still segregated, so women still have lots of time to spend in their "own" spaces. Of course, it would be even nicer if women could choose when to take advantage of so-called privacy, rather than being forcibly thrust into invisibility.
11
What a heartening article. Thank you.
I'm so glad to hear about what I consider social progress (funny how "social progress" always seems to involve making women more equal citizens) happening in other countries. These women-specific restrictions...I just can't fathom not being able to drive, to travel, to walk into a coffee shop without fear of a hassle, much less having to keep my hair covered in public, though I live a couple of miles from an Amish/Mennonite enclave, and girls who look about 10 have their hair partially covered....
I'm glad to hear this is happening. Now, let's give all women access to birth control! We read that 2/3 of the country is 30, and I read recently that 50% of the population of Africa is under 30. What are these young people going to do without birth control? Have seven children?
Birth control is everything. It's such a shame that, since Reagan, the policy of the US is so unequivocally anti-birth control. Overpopulation, my friends, is the cause of global warming, plastic in the oceans, and the decimation of animal/insect populations. While it is heartening to read about some women in Saudi Arabia being able to shed their burkas without being beheaded, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see the problem of overpopulation hurtling at us.
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Actually birth rates in the U.S. and much of the developed world are below replacement levels. The U.S. should be encouraging more children, not less.
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@DRS "Encouraging more children"? When people are drowning in the Med seeking a better life in Europe? When India is running out of water? When Trump is trying to grab BILLIONS from the defense budget to build a wall that we all know won't work? When access to birth control is unavailable to millions of American women?
Baloney. Or, are you trying to say in a very PC way that we need to force more white women to procreate?
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@lizinsarasota I cover my hair by choice, in recognition of my commitment to my husband and through my identity as a reform Jew. This was a decision I alone made. I don't have to cover, but I love it. It has given me agency as far as how much of my body I choose to cover and largely changed the narrative of how I am treated by men. I'm no longer hit on all the time, which is refreshing, and by and large, men don't attempt to touch me without my consent.
When I started a year ago, a friend said to me that there are places in the world, like SA, where women are forced to cover. I responded that there are places where women aren't allowed to cover if they wanted to and asked, is that better? The obvious answer is no, a woman should have a choice. I responded that clearly, it is implied that given the choice, we should choose not to.
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One could hope that as the younger generations push for more reforms and change. Those who study and work outside their native countries should strive to change the repressive norms and politics of the current status quo.
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No they should not, life is not one size fits all. What works for a country and its citizens might not work for others. If people are being detained, killed etc like they are in Myanmar, Yemen, and China yes we should all do something. But don’t force your cultural beliefs on other countries, especially when you are young. Many things that I thought were so important in life when I was “young” are really not that important to me now.
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It's fascinating to see yet another dictatorship (compare Tunisia under Bourguiba and Ben Ali, or Iraq under Al Bakr and Saddam Hussein) enact reforms favorable to women, all while general suppression continues.
Isn't it also worthy of note that some of the women in these shops don't have their heads covered in the presence of men?
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