When policymakers and media alike sideline serious human rights concerns so completely, not even a mention in trade talks, it is clear that the enemy has won, and it is us.
While the US government will mention the Uighur from time to time, its human rights policies are selective and therefore politicized. Meanwhile the UN barely dates to criticize China, and the large nation of Taiwan is still banned from participation.
Money talks. But having lost faith in morality beyond the marketplace, we don't even try to push back. No wonder American citizens starve to death in prisons around the world, most recently in Egypt. No wonder we face an existential environmental and climate threat affecting the whole world.
The New York Times, for one, should stop creating silos that keep discussion of rights and values separate from material concerns. Its current vision is short sighted.
2
After reading this article and the Breaking News article, I have a question. Why is this being referred to as a win situation? This was a compromise situation where both parties compromised on different issues supported by each party and some supported by both. This is what I expect from my government and should be applauded rather than being turned into a divisive situation.
.
When the media speaks in terms of win, there must be a loser, making it a sports event rather than an agreement that will benefit the American people. Please report the news rather than refereeing it.
The damage is done. Sure, there is a feel-good moment but the fix is in. When the euphoria wears out, no one is the winner
1
China has made promises before that were never followed through. Also Trump's obstinance destroyed the soybean market. Now China has been buying soybean from Brazil. Good luck getting that market back at this late stage.
“Trump is ruining our markets. No one is buying our product no more, and we have no markets no more.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/10/trump-is-ruining-our-markets-farmers-lose-a-huge-customer-to-trade-war----china.html
1
So....good for banks? It is laughable, yet completely predictable, that this administration touts this as a 'deal.'
2
Phase one of nothing. It's all for show.
2
This is not a deal of any kind.
Trump delivers smoke and mirrors yet again.
3
Headline should be :Trump Signs China Trade Deal, Putting Economic Interests of United States First
He signed it to distract from the impeachment delivery!! Everything he does seems to be calculated to lie or distract.
2
The arson puts out the fire, and all the Republicans celebrate. What else is new?
2
"Billions" of everything. We know this entire signing was a joke. Why did the media allow itself to be manipulated by the WH? CNN and other news outlets continue to aid and abet this WH snow jobs on the uninformed American people. There is no way China gives the US "billions" in grain, clothes etc. As pointed out before, Trump and his "tariffs" deals are nothing more than publicity stunts. Notice he and McConnell tried to stage this at the same time as the impeachment transmittal yesterday? It will continue. Disgusting.
4
The trade war that Trump started.
2
The fireman isn’t supposed to set the fire .
3
"...practices that American firms complain put them at a disadvantage and force them to hand over valuable intellectual property to Chinese firms,..." I borrow this from another article.
This statement is laughable. The reality is; American firms willingly handed over that IP, because; 1. they felt China would never be capable of duplicating and competing with those firms. 2. All they cared about in their acquiescence to the hand-off was getting China's cheap manufacturing in order to take those sweat shop, made for pittances products and sell them for huge profits to American consumers, and elsewhere.
US companies willingly gave over their IP for mega profits! They weren't coerced, there were no Chinese M-64's held to any American executives heads. None of their family were threatened. They did it to get what they wanted - mega profits earned from American consumers, who were in many cases former employees!
This meme about IP theft (in the macro) is actually fake news! Most of the US firms that did business with China could have gone elsewhere, or figured out other means. After all, their executives are the allegedly smartest people we are honored to have them telling us so...
BTW at this point, China has completely eviscerated #1. They were and are very capable of competing with US firms.
2
The TPP would have given us much more leverage against China. What trump has is mediocre. trump is nothing but an empty braggert and a pathetic bully.
2
Donald Trump has used economic power to force countries to comply with his wishes. No war, no threats, just money. Why has no other President ever done this? Seems that politicians really are that stupid. He is a hard headed businessman who understands that money is more powerful than any bomb
Nixon did good things with China too. Still a crook.
2
An old joke:
Why did the moron hit himself on the head with a hammer?
Because it felt so good when he stopped.
2
You got to give it to him for timing.Few weeks back he had us at the brink of war. Today the trade deal I wonder what he is planning for an encore?He is running out of things to Wag The Dog with. Any thing to take our attention off the business at hand his impeachment.
2
I am disappointed in Pelosi for setting up a failed removal of a criminal president.
If you know nothing about trade and treaties and economics and globalists and China then you must not realize trump did a smoke and mirrors with this non deal. It’s nothing.
Doing nothing for “ made in the USA” and I don’t want to send my taxes to corporate farms. Are subsistence farms of the mom / pop variety getting any farm subsidy funds to help offset their poverty. I don’t think so. Just the farms that treat their livestock and soil like detritus . We are wage earning middle class worker bees in the hinterlands here where we know nothing and get nothing unless we are in the trump cult. Evidence is all the beltway construction of roads and housing and office complexes.
If you drive up and down our eastern seaboard starting in Penn. on down it’s incredible. The farms there are now warehouses for global companies. How is this America.??I guess it isn’t my America any longer. I realized on this snowbird trip that my kids are going to be in an entirely different era of existence. I think at some point in old age they may see a war on our soil. I know once we pass ;their source of extra income and economic well being will be gone and both will live with wages that will never allow for lifestyle like they expected. And I am happy not having grandchildren so I don’t have another generation I will worry about. When I daydreamed in the 1950’s /60’s I thought we would be safe. We aren’t !
1
The contradictions reported in this paper are getting worse and worse. In another article, the "conflicts"are not on pause, but ongoing, and as such still effecting trade and growth.
A pause is an absurd term to use...because it means nothing when the Conflict (capital C) is still waging! A pause for the soldiers to go collect their dead and wounded? Only to resume that localized battle forthwith! But the other battles are still being waged! People and businesses are still taking hits!
And as for the alleged benefits - should there be any real bumps to the Economy - wont be worth an expired NYC metro card, if the benefits (wages and lower costs of living) do not find their way into the pockets of a majority of the population. You know, the Workers and Consumers!
While its more likely the benefits will be pooled and collected by the usual cast of characters. Better known as the 1%.
Nothing US companies manufacture in China will go down in price. No raw materials (like steel) bought from China will result in cheaper products produced domestically.
Little of the profits earned by US companies in any uptick, will be more generously distributed among their workers. Unless they sit in the Executive offices.
We have to stop this nonsense where we equate trade related Economic upticks with benefits being spread among the working class! Which is what Trump and Clan rely on.
I demand more honest reporting! Less hype over these faux successes!
Trump's classic move is to break it then fix it, framing himself as hero.
This is just another example of that.
5
When I was buying RAM for a friend here the EU price was 20% lower than the US price.
Now I think Trump could have done better and the fact is I applaud him going after China, but bet nothing really changed
So, it is a bit like the TPP but a bit worse? Correct me if I’m wrong please.
4
I am no fan of Trump. But free trade has wreaked havoc in the US and around the world.
This is a step in the right direction notwithstanding the otherw despicable author.
As to the complaint by manufacturers and Democrats that China is still allowed to subsidize its steel industry and solar energy companies, and to have state owned companies- 100 of which are in the Fortune Global 500, giving the lie to the neoliberal mantra "the state can't pick winners " , justifying privatization and market fundamentalism- WE CAN DO THOSE THINGS TOO! Indeed we used to: the TVA electrified the South, there was a Post Office Bank, and Jimmy Carter's Transportation Secretary called for a government car company to complete with the private corporations to get them to become energy efficient.
But Democrats abandoned the New Deal and the working class and forgot these things in the Clinton era. They need to discover them in a Green New Deal.
Now we know why Pelosi waited to submit the articles of impeachment. It wasnt to "protect the constitution", it was for maximum political benefit.
First, hand them over the same day Trump signs this agreement with China. She knew full well the Trump hating media would spend the day on impeachment, not on the China deal. It was a momentous achievement, something every President before him should have done, but just didnt know how.
Second, just weeks away from primaries in Iowa and New Hampshire, it takes the socialists Senators off the campaign trail, most notably, Bernie. After the debate the other night, its painfully obvious that CNN is against Bernie. Since CNN gets their walking papers from the Democrat establishment, that means This is proof positive that the Democrat establishment is doing everything they can to thwart Bernies candidacy - again.
The part that gets me is taking the spotlight away from this China deal. Everyone said it couldnt be done. They said tariffs dont work. Trump proved them all wrong. Its an incredible achievement not just for Trump, but finally, for America. Its about time China was taken to task.
4
“As a candidate for president, I vowed strong action,” Mr. Trump said. “Unlike those who came before me, I kept my promise.”
Tariffs still in place so American consumers are still paying more. Chinese Government subsidies are still in place. Seems to me this is a partial solution with the major issues still unresolved. That's not keeping a promise.
5
@alan
So whats you solution?
Lift the tariffs, so we could all enjoy paying for cheap Chinense goods, while they continue to siphon away American manufacturing?
We all complain that America's manufacturing base, and all its jobs, has disappeared.
Well, where do you think it went?
@SportsMedicine home depot and WalMart trained the Anerican consumer that cheaper is better. Back when Sears Roebuck was the largest retailer in the World they had the best Value not the lowest price
1
The "conflict" is based on americas dependency on foreign products and the scarcity of the label "Made in the USA". Manipulation and demagoguery has never been the solution. Not to mention the sheer negativeness and ignorance of Danald Trump. These are not his ideas, and he definitely has the wrong advisers. Maybe when he comes to visit us in Davos he might listen to other people for a change.
5
The initial trade deal signed by the US and China could be a mutual necessity of the two as an interim relief to tide over the immediate troubles. The hidden part of the deal is its validity period that perhaps ends by November 2020. Still the cool down in trade tensions is welcome.
1
The good news is that Trump has made socialists out of middle America. Our farmers are now gladly welcoming dole out money from the so-called “coastal
elites” so that the will not starve — socialism at its best.
I for one, as a New Yorker and a tax payer, is very proud that a part of my tax is feeding farmers from Moscow Mitch’s domain.
It’s a very beautiful feeling.
10
Where’s the punch line?
trump’s nose should be rubbed in this “agreement” and note that it was probably dictated by Chinese “negotiators” and left for the president to tout.
It’s a joke. And do we really expect China to adhere to it? It’s not like past agreements, which were immediately broken.
With this administration, the USA is a laughingstock in the world trade arena.
5
It’s ok, your Bernie can fix it later do we all can live in trailers down the road.
So can someone tell me if this whole ridiculous pageant accomplished anything positive that might not have otherwise been achieved through competent adjudication through the WTO?
6
The President is lying. This is all for show and has no substance.
9
The message is crystal clear. Chinese leadership has ascertained that Trump will be re-elected and it is in their own best interest to treat now rather than deal with a refreshed, second-term Trump. This is the way I see this.
5
Appears that US banks get to make some of the loans for China to buy US potatoes and brussel sprouts and China get to keep taking US tech R&D with a promise of no further tariffs.
1
Chinese manufacturers simply moved many affected industries to Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia as well as Mexico to leverage the USMCA. My question about the deal is how does it contend with this reality? Really, the Trump Administration didn't notice a dramatic increase in imports from those tariff affected sectors from those countries?
5
I think Twitter should suspend Trumps account for the duration of the trial. So as not to bias America AGAINST himself.
5
Trump broke it, tried to fix it with socialist funds -- failed. Phase I will double down on socialist funding near bankrupt farmers, brags that China will buy $9 billion less than when Obama was president.
His Base: Trump never gets tired of winning.
Trump has to agree to Phase II to see what's not in it.
Both deals suffer from a preexisting condition, Trump
Sidebar: I remember how Trump would bus my wife and I to Atlantic City, along with thousands --the bus was free and he'd pay us all $40 each, give us a free Prime Rib dinner in a ritzy restaurant. Seniors would go every day. What a gimmicky -- first in his class at Wharton I bet. It still must irk him how they let all them C Students sit on the stage at Commencement -- there he was pictured sitting under the basketball rim.
3
Are taxpayers going to get the $28 billion paid to farmers to buy their vote in 2020?
5
Has anyone got a copy of the 'trade deal' that was signed and could it be posted where it can be studied so we don't have to rely on impressions of what the terms are? Enough spin, let's see the agreement.
2
https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/files/agreements/phase one agreement/Economic_And_Trade_Agreement_Between_The_United_States_And_China_Text.pdf
2
So Trump signs an initial trade deal with China, which basically returns the two nations back to the trade status in place before the beginning of the trade war that he started. Of course, China promised him the moon as it continues to develop markets and supply chains else where. Like so many things in the Trump orbit, we have seen this movie before.
5
Schumer wanted unconditional free trade with China. Now he whines that we didn't include enough tough conditions.
1
We’re still operating with tariffs on both sides. We have promises that they’ll buy more stuff by next year. But nothing on their government subsidizing their economy. That’s phase II. Manana, suckers.
1
Trump gets on the front page of NYT for not even half way fixing a problem his insecure mentality created.
7
Classic Trump: Create an unnecessary crisis, cause real damage to regular people, agree to return to status quo, boast about his brilliance and incredible deal making.
16
The US might need Chinese assistance, and ought to thank China just by saying: “Thank you in Chinese.” There is only a small need to think money is the important thing connecting your two nations!
So did we win? Only time will tell...but by then we'll be dead and it won't matter what the market shares were or the dividends. Doesn't matter anyway.
1
I see this as a win for trump and the country. I didn’t vote for him, but will admit he has made gains despite the collateral damage.
5
would you say that Trump's chipping away at the Democratic institutions is collateral damage? or that the Trade Deal with China is part of Trump's presidential reality show?
11
I'm glad this article at least points out some of the questionable aspects of the agreement. Even a quick read through reveals a lot of questionable loopholes. For example, one clause is literally an agreement to agree. The $200 billion, upon close reading, is stuff China was already buying before. Agricultural import levels is actually lower than pre-trade war, and energy imports is really something China was already hungry for anyway.
The IP concessions are also non-concessions, since China is left with freedom on how to implement increased enforcement. And China was moving toward tighter IP laws anyway since China has been 2nd in the world in patent filings for quite a few years.
Unfortunately, too many news sources are simply repeating the administration's talking points. Economists and trade policy experts will probably comment substantively in 24-48 hours (since they, unlike the propaganda machine, are bothering to read the fine print.) But by then, Trump will have already completed his victory lap, the news cycle will have moved on, and facts will have again become a casualty of politics.
8
May I now put my own economic conflicts on pause?
1
Blue tie day at the WH.
1
Maybe the English version of the agreement needs to be translated into Chinese and then back-translated by two different translators?
1
It's progress. It's more and better than we had before.
It will NEVER be perfect.
4
Can't help but wonder where is Grover Norquist when tariffs were added, you know that tax increase consumers are paying.
5
Dangerous Donald can not afford to have the economy tank and the stock market along with it. The economy is the only thing he’s got going for him and probably the only way he can get re-elected. To prevent this, he had to partly undo the terrible damage his trade war with China has done and then claim victory. The Deplorables and Republican terrorists in the Senate may not see it (or may not want to see it) but this is always Trump’s MO. Create a crisis, then solve it and claim victory.
5
Trump gets China to agree to something, and progressives complain. They never stop.
7
@AACNY Getting China to agree to something wants. Trump supporters declares victory. They never stop.
5
@AACNY
Trump takes a problem, makes it worse, causes negative effects felt by US and other countries, then makes a deal that gives you relatively very little and you applaud him. Sounds a bit like Trump (and his supporters) believing he deserved a Novel Peace Prize for denuclearising North Korea... except he didn’t.
8
Trump takes a problem, makes it worse, creates problems for people not directly involved, then agrees to something that gives you relatively little, and you applaud?
7
These colors don't run. Oh, except in Syria and against China in trade.
3
To the Trumper, this is a win for the Dotard, except they cannot give examples of his winning except this is a serious winning when he said so. China was purchasing Agr from us before, so what is winning here? It has been known to the Chinese policymaker that the old state enterprise has hindered the growth of the private sectors of the economy, and it is the responsibility of decision-makers to remove those obstacles and let the economy grow to its full potential. In that, they have begun the policy to curtail the credit access to semi-government enterprises and gradually liberate their financial institution by allowing the foreigner to participate. Are these changes in internal policy also a win?
For many years, both Japan and Germany have been running a trade surplus vs China under a similar business environment as that of the US? Why? It is because they produce the product China wants to buy, their business people listen to the customer and able to speak the native language and they persevere. Is there something to learn from these 2 countries for the complainer in this country?
3
Remember that Trump stupidly pulled the US out of the TPP handing a massive trade victory to China!
This so-called Phase One agreement is a dog and pony show which fails to undo the damage of Trump's trade wars. Trump has created the largest trade deficit, the largest budget deficits and the largest national debt in world history! Trump has also caused bankruptcy by a lot of farmers and hurt many others badly despite creating a $28 BILLION bailout, and giving welfare to farmers!
China will do whatever it wants regardless of what this treaty says. They'll find loop holes, procrastinate, steal intellectual property, counterfeit and fight in the world courts. The enforcement mechanisms are basically nil.
The economy is doing OK because of President Obama's 7-year-long economic recovery, including rescuing America's auto industry and because of repeated rate cuts by the Fed. The Fed only approved these cuts to avoid the economic disaster Trump was creating. But easy (even free) money has encourage a massive expansion of corporate debt. This insures that the next downturn will be a bigger disaster than the last one. And the Fed has used up all its options.
DISASTER LOOMS! But as long as it's after the election Trump doesn't care!
7
New trade deal that picks Wall Street executives as winners and steel workers as losers? I don't see anything new there.
5
Chuck Schumer is an expert on China? Give me a break please. The entire Chinese trade delegation memebrs are experts on America. We will be losers all the time. Sorry to say this. We need to ctach up to understand China. Not just buying Chinese junks. I speak Chinese. How many of the American delegation member speak and read Chinese? Not just: Ni How.
4
The man is way out of his depth with the Chinese, and with anyone else, save his own base. Beijing is making end runs around the fool while keeping him busy thinking he's making great 'deals'. It's embarrassing,
6
With all the new news on the impeachment the China deal deal is getting lost.
2
Everyone here knows best what a proper trade deal looks like. That’s strange that experts in the comment section didn’t come up with anything against Chinese unfair trade practices.
Is it just a progressive foreign policy - to be bullied by everyone and constantly apologize?
2
@Alex
Regardless of the topic, it's the old same angry anti-Trump comments.
3
@Alex "That’s strange that experts in the comment section didn’t come up with anything against Chinese unfair trade practices."
Trump didn't, either. But some people who are informed about the subject to come up with a solution in the form of a economic alliance that would have excluded China, and had actual enforcement mechanisms, and where the US held the most economic clout. It was called TPP, and Trump killed it.
4
Trump (like many CEOs) create d a problem where there was none. Blame all problems on his predecessors..
He put a fire to our home; then saved Garage and announced:
He did bigly by saving our garage at least. We should all vote for him again.
Let's hope we all think hard before we vote for any GOP person.
7
Trump is just like the fire fighter who is also a serial arsonist. He sets fires only to gain public recognition and praise when he later puts the fire out. The bigger and more damaging the fire, the greater the praise after he battles the blaze. Or so he thinks. But often, his fires are unable to be contained before there is tragic loss of life and destruction of property. Often environmental destruction reaches epic proportions before the fire can be contained!
But what are a few lives, some property and the pristine environment when the benefits to Trump are more ego-building, racist rallies, another stolen election, another tax cut for himself and his billionaire cronies and more profits for Trump?
3
Lot of news on Tariff on China for two years and now this. Let me try and understand this in a simple way.
USA imposes tariffs on 67% of goods and China imposes tariffs on 57% of the goods. Some gain there for US of A.
If I assume a 25% average tariff on the 360b worth of goods imported, the value is $90 billion.
If I assume a 25% margin on the $200 b worth of goods to be exported by 2021, US will gain another $50 billion.
On the face of it, US will gain $90 from existing tariffs and another $25 billion from margins of exported goods.
The total gain is about $115 billion per year on the face of it not discounting the reverse tariffs and subsidies. If we factor those in, then the actual gains may be halved or so, say $60 b PA.
The US debt to China is $1 trillion not to mention its debt to Japan, another trillion.
I guess US will make enough gains to pay for the interest of the debt it owes to China. I am no economist but I am guessing that the trade war may really help reduce the Chinese debt or any other debt.
Are the Chinese helping US with a deal so that USA can pay the interest for debt it owes?
I guess there will be more questions...than answers
We won, thanks to Our President standing up for America.
5
Say....
Which will come first?
Phase 2 China wins again
OR
Phase 2 President Health Exam
OR
Phase 1 New President 2020
1
Hey, trade wars are easy to win! Yep, that’s what the stable genius says. US farmers have already lost huge chunks of their Asian markets and won’t get them back soon, if ever. And it certainly looks like we're in for another imminent dose of trump style ‘socialism’ with yet another (this will be #3 and counting) $16 billion bailout for farmers!!! Alas the Blue States are having to put out for Red States for the decisions of a president elected by the Red States.
3
Trump is doubling down on using foreign policy as political tools to advance his personal fortunes.
"Mr. Trump seized on the signing as a counterweight to impeachment proceedings...At a lavish White House ceremony crowded with cabinet members, lawmakers and executives from America’s biggest companies..."
was Trump their as POTUS or CEO of The Trump or
Trade war with China was never a sensible step as far as America is concerned since all sorts of Chinese goods are dumped all over America. Americans have suffered literally on account of this silly trade war and none else. Better sense prevailed at last. Better late than never.
Trump did NOT create the Trade deficit with China or let them Get away with Cheating as the past administrations have...any Negative criticism of Trump on this is as lame as the better Deal with Mexico that the Democrats have even said was so/ You Trump haters are the same ones who said he would never win/ the same people who say Walls will not work., well the ones just built in San Diego have been called a success and a game changer, your the same people who said the mueller investigation would put a end to Trump...well it turned up empty....Trump is a Doer and a Mover...unlike that other Party who has Done NOTHING!
5
Brazilian soybean farmers send their sincerest thanks to the Tariff Man for creating a giant market with China that will never go back to American farmers.
MBGA!
4
Was Trump signing the trade deal as an impeached POTUS or CEO of The Trump Organization?
2
Here's the text of the deal:
https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/files/agreements/phase%20one%20agreement/Economic_And_Trade_Agreement_Between_The_United_States_And_China_Text.pdf
Key points for the trump supporters. Most of this was in TPP. so ya got nothing- except now USA goes it alone. Once again, same old trumpism. Go it alone, get nothing done, pretend to deliver.
4
Yet more problems with the fine print. A lot of supposed IP protections don't have teeth, and don't do more than what China was doing anyway. China had already toughened up IP enforcement (mostly to avoid scaring off foreign tech companies,) but fundamentally this agreement doesn't seem to obligate China to any concrete actions...like putting more money into IP enforcement or new dedicated IP enforcement government agency. So far analysts seem to take this as a soft promise of "we'll be tougher IF we catch the IP violators..."
And again, so much is punted to Phase II, which (conveniently) is post-election. That doesn't inspire confidence.
This is a real and complicated issue. That Trump supporters just want to pass this off as "Trump won" seems sad and desperate, and puts the ego of one man above the economic interest of the country.
4
Trump blinked.
This is a win for China, who, because they know that they are the real winner, is letting Trump declare this is his win.
3
Most of the tariffs we and China have applied to each other’s products remain in place...and China will not be lifting any of the retaliatory tariffs it imposed on US$110 billion worth of American goods as part of the deal.
Yes, we're "winning" so much, it's getting embarrassing.
5
I am disappointed that folks below will not jettison rank partisanship to criticize POTUS on an economic win.
I watched the ceremony live.
And it was interesting about the same time Madame speaker was staging her own ceremony - signing shamimpeachment.
Says much about our Washington today.
One thing I take from this trade is for the first time - America is making a foreign country commit to reducing trade deficits in real dollars.
It has been reported that Chinese commitment to purchase up to some $200 plus billion in just 2 years - is unheard of.
And this is without WTO.
And almost halving our imbalance with China - you would think folks on both sides should applaud.
Trade deficits generally have negative impact on dollar - and more importantly, it reflects our idle factories and unemployed Americans.
So, this trade deal all in all good.
Folks who see nothing good about our POTUS - you have a real American way chance in 10 months.
Till then, at least give credit where credit is due.
4
@Neil
what you watched was a 2 hour ego trip disguised as a campaign rally. most actual economists see little if any concrete gains. notice also that the really difficult and probably fruitless work was delayed until after the election. this whole sorry show was nothing more than a cheap political stunt.
6
A half-solution to a fully self-inflicted problem. He will parade this in front of his uninformed base as victory. US manufacturing will continue to decline. And our agricultural sector has already taken quite a hit, even with the taxpayer bailout.
6
Only the vice Premier He Liu came because this trade pact is a concession on China's side- the supreme leader of CCP does not want to lose face.
I just watched the signing ceremony and listened to Mr.Trump's speech. From my perception it is a win for the US, although mostly on the short term. However, breaking the 49% stake barrier for US corporations in China is worth applauding. Other than that, don't hold too high an expectation for the commitment to intellectual property protections from China's state-owned companies. There is grey zone and loopholes that one might use to bypass the restrictions.
4
@Andre Wang
It's a start. We are seeking cooperation from European countries to avoid using certain Chinese technology that would enable China to access to data.
Better than what we had before, which was nothing.
3
Trump has sanctified the biggest issue this administration has with the Chinese. State-owned enterprises comprise 70 percent of the Chinese economy making this economy antithetical to the American system of doing business where nearly everything is in private hands. Trump wants them open up their system to be more like ours, but his deal assures this will never happen. Only a system like China's could promise to purchase, outright, the massive amounts of energy and agricultural products demanded by Trump without any consideration to return on investment. It took a fiat economy to make it happen and make Trump's day. So much for American influence.
I don’t see where it involved pallets of cash delivered at night, the root of all strong agreements.
2
The fine print says it all. The fact Trump supporters are here straining so hard to call this a win should tell you how lacking in substance this is. Even more telling, perhaps, is that so many big issues are punted to Phase II, which in turn is punted past the November election.
1
What the trade war did do was enable Trump to grant all sorts of exemptions from the tariffs to companies that agreed to do him a personal favor in return, e.g. contribute to his re-election fund, or spend money at his properties.
2
The comments suggesting that an appreciative or admiring attitude toward Trump is appropriate is an endorsement of his corrupt presidency and the dangers he is posing to our country's security and democracy. What is clever is the artful elevation of this story to front page news by Trump on the day when Trump's impeachment gets underway. That McConnell mentioned this event during his speech accepting the House's articles of impeachment is unusual to say the least but it reinforces what I am referring to.
2
A whole lot of spin, not a lot of substance. So far, it seems the fine print suggests:
(1) Nothing to address cybersecurity issues
(2) Nothing about China's state subsidies and state ownership in key industries like solar energy and steel.
(3) China mostly committing to buy goods they were buying before anyway
(4) Many tariffs remain
(5) Many big tariffs remain in place for both sides. So Trump has not even really solved the problems he caused.
(6) Most of the big promises are now punted to Phase II, which in turn is punted past the November election.
Hmm...convenient.
4
i'm surprised china even signed this thing after being forced to sit thru a 2 hour campaign rally which probably did more to damage future relations with us than any of trumps' other disingenuous agreements.
1
People can say one side won, lost, or flinched.
Without details, how can one judge?
With tariffs in place, how much of a higher price will consumers pay in goods and services?
This article does not make clear if the alleged promise to buy more US goods and services will be a net gain to the United States.
Moreover, assuming there is a net gain to the US, who within the US will receive this alleged net gain?
If only the top 1 percent of the population who owns stock in the big corporations benefit, how is that a victory for the working man struggling to make a living?
Trump always goes heavy on claims of victory without details. Moreover, with his history of lying, I do not believe anything he says.
5
sweet deal, next week the new NAFTA. Wages growing at historic levels and unemployment at historic lows. This all points to a Democratic Landslide, Not.
7
This is a pause for election year. Nothing has been resolved in long term yet.
So, we're back to where we were before except there's still a 25% tax on most of what we buy from China and we already paid billions to farmers in welfare. What a great win.
6
Hate to hate to say it, but: This actually sounds pretty good. He's probably gonna get reelected.
10
I'm sure just in time to deliver a last round of bailouts to the farmers. Only thing more classy than failed policy is buying votes!
3
Just part of the never ending crisis of "easy to win" trade wars that Trump initiated and incited. Using it in relation to manipulation of the financial markets for his benefit and the Mar-a-Lago crowd is itself impeachable..
2
As in physics, action is met with the same energy reaction.
Likewise, the “best deal ever” should be met with the “worst deal ever.” Somewhere in the middle is the correct answer: minimal improvements at the cost of total chaos. We will see the true outcome in few years from now.
1
China has a large GDP which is about 65% of US GDP. But with 1.4 billion people, China is still a developing country. Problems in inequality, aging, healthcare, corruptions, and education still remain to be overcome.
With that in mind, the current deal probably is the best what Trump can get from China. More than that, China will rather fight than surrender. In that case, both sides lose. Not just Chinese suffer, American people will suffer, too.
Trump's timing is good. He will have more time and energy to deal with campaign issues and impeachment inconvenience. I am not a Republican, but I think Trump has a high probability to get reelected.
7
President Trump likes chaos because it keeps his opponents off balance. But it will decrease business investment in the US because of uncertainty, and it will decrease the attractiveness of US made exports to foreign buyers due to the same uncertainty. These may, in the end, be more important than the modest concessions President Trump gets from his foreign trade partners. However, this important negative aspect of Trump's actions might not become apparent until after the elections....
1
@Will Hogan - business investment in the US is up during the Trump term by every single measure. When the new goes in next week european and Asian auto makers will have to increase investment to meet the new north american vehicle content rules. You are pushing decades old rhetoric.
2
"There is no longer a nuclear threat from North Korea", Donald Trump, June 13th, 2018.
From what I've seen so far, it looks like Donald Trump couldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag, unless he could sue it first.
However, being a reasonable person, I will say that the day I hear, from a reliable source, that the trade war cost us less than what we got in return, I'll believe it. And not a moment before.
After all, if I'm not mistaken, the "master negotiator" Mr. Trump lost an average of $100,000,000 a years for ten years in a row in this country. Often being the single largest financial loser in any given year. So, considering his bonafides, you'll forgive me if I'm a little skeptical of this "tremendous deal!" he's secured for us all.
Getting a "phase one outline" is not the same as marching up San Juan Hill, despite the fact that that's exactly how Donald "bone-spur" Trump is going to sell it.
"There is no longer a nuclear threat from North Korea", Donald Trump, June 13th, 2018. Uh, huh.
5
Not worth the parchment it’s scratched on.
2
So, the new trade agreement is signed, but most of the tariffs imposed by both sides stay in place. So, everyone pays more! What a deal!
Blue wave 2020 !
4
Just thinking...when will the U.S. government payments to farmers end? I can imagine them going on for awhile, at the same time their sales..at least the large operations...start increasing.
Yes, B, it's a win for some people.
1
Wait a minute-- our president signed. Howcum THEIR president didn't show up for the signing photo op? I believe that in China, President Xi wanted to be seen as "above" Trump not only by his people but by the world. And as the world can plainly see, it looks like Trump lost THAT negotiation.
2
Trump detractors will attempt to poke holes in this deal, but the fact remains President Trump was able to extract some serious concessions from China, especially for a phase 1 deal, without giving up much in return.
We should all be grateful that this President is willing to think bolder and attack the problem head on. Previous presidents loved commissioning reports, pushing paper, "building consensus" and talking in vague and abstract terms about Chinese abuses and global economic patterns without doing anything to solve the actual issue(s).
84
@B Fine with me that there is a truce. Except just as in Trump eliminating the Nuclear Deal, no one can say whether the TPP or building on that agreement would have cost less pain and perhaps greater reward and pressure in the future. My way or the highway didn't deliver much here and frankly I still compare job growth, GDP and wages for people making less than $100K per year and find Obama's last 3 years exceed this guy's.
96
@B “ Under the agreement, China has promised to buy an additional $12.5 billion in US agricultural products in year one, and then $19.5 billion year two. Those commitments come atop roughly $24 billion in farm purchases that China made in 2017, before the trade war started.”
So far the math doesn’t represent an improvement to a self-inflicted problem.
148
@Pete see above statement "Trump detractors will attempt to poke holes in this deal"
13
It’s Win Win situation. But I see US is the winner here
3
Signed the deal on the day the House voted to send impeachment charges to the Senate. Typical Trump muddling.
Hey, Americans, would you please solve the issue with China's Huawei?
Canada arrested Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou on the US extradition request early December last year. China took two Canadian hostages and imposed retaliation tariffs on agricultural exports. Trudeau asked Trump to solve the issue before signing the trade deal. So, what happened?
May we say please don't benefit yourself at poor Canadians' expense.
We suffered a tragedy in Iran lately possibly by a by-product of war activities, too.
And May I add Meghan wants to come to Canada, not the US.
Their security bill is said to be more than $1M a year.
You owe us a lot, don't you?
Somebody smart will work out that so far this trumpian fiasco has cost everybody more.
Whether in cash, jobs or world trade and development.
All based on unsustainable economic models.
Team trump
Fleecing unsuspecting Americans patriots again....
1
President Trump is a realist. He is not a day dreamer. He knows what he is doing. Because of this trade deal with China, he will be the winner in 2020 election. No debates. waste of time.
4
It's amazing how markets go up because Trump accomplished nothing.
2
Markets don’t see politics. They see opportunity.
1
All the while, Elon has a brand new factory in China created in ten months. The finance guys of America has destroyed us. We are nothing but a colony of the greatest capitalists of the world.
3
This is still a deal that benefits his base ( oil and commodity farm products) and his oligarchy ( banking, financial services and insurance). The rest of us working coastal and urban stiffs have to pay for it.
You can not believe what replacement hurricane windows cost in South florida.
2
For those unfamiliar with diplomacy, if China sends its Vice then we should send our Vice. So the brilliant President meets with a Vice President. I wonder who is laughing now.
3
In one way, Phase 1 is similar to Obama’s nuclear deal with Iran known as JCPOA. Both agreements required good faith, however, JCPOA included inspections via an independent agency known as the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Phase 1 has no independent investigators.
Huge loopholes are written into Phase 1 that give China a free hand when China deems the technology to be of importance to China. Phase 1 also fails to address China’s subsidies for new industries such as high speed rail, the China built C919 airplane designed to replace Boeing, and solar panels, to name a few.
Unlike the Iran JCPOA deal, Phase 1 compliance challenges are limited to “consultations”, a complaint must be submitted in 90 days but there is no agency to mitigate dispute. Compliance is a key factor in any agreement meaning Phase 1 is inferior to the Iran deal.
No help was included in Phase 1 for American soy farmers. When Trump impulsively launched the tariff war, China built the infrastructure Brazil needed to get farm products to port. It's all but certain that Brazil will increase its share of China’s growing markets.
However, it’s unlikely Trump supporters will read the details and learn the last two years of increased prices and hostility was for naught. For media purposes, Trump gets a “win” with the uninformed.
2
Trump fiddles while the earth burns. ( Australia so many innocent victims)
Our farmers may get some short term relief but long term it is climate change that will determine their future.
This agreement is much ado about nothing and merely takes us back to where we were.
The agreement Trump and the World must honor is the Paris accord this is the very least we can do and any trade agreement must focus on how we can do more including the USMC.
2
It appears dear neighbour, friend and ally, Canada is left out in the cold again. (literally, it's -32C as I write.)
In order to fulfill it's obligations under this agreement, China will have to cease buying from Canada and other developing countries. These exclusionary provisions are in clear violation of WTO rules, but hey, we're friends, right? Why should we care if our GDP tanks while yours continues to provide you with a great foundation for your continued trillion dollar fiscal deficit.
Speaking of which, as long as you run that deficit, you will still run a trade deficit, and gradually your businesses will be bought up by the Chinese enterprises, but I digress.
My question is whether there are pass-through provisions? If Canada buys inputs from the US, and exports them to China, will those inputs count towards China's import requirements from the US?
1
Why are they suddenly wearing blue ties (Trump and Pence)? I know this sounds superficial, but it just seems odd. I've never seen Trump in a blue tie.
Other than that, it's just posturing.
4
Comments here demonstrate President Trump is like ‘climate change’ to many progressives...there is no denying everything about him is bad for them, and there can be no good coming from his effects...and the 2020 election is their ‘tipping point’ for a calamitous Trump second term, where their world comes crashing down. It is going to be quite a spectacle in November.
3
China, and any other country that is paying attention, knows that Trump is not to be trusted and will renege on any pact whenever he feels like it. It will be interesting to see how quickly the promised Chinese purchases materialize.
3
The total raw value of all US food produced is I believe 200 billion dollars. To reach that rate they are going to need to buy a lot of jets and bulk commodities like coal, wood iron and steel. Do we have the logistics in place to increase the volume of these exports? Short of high value technology rich manufactured products which we may be reluctant to sell, there is few manufactured products they need. Their Agriculture cannot use US agricultural machinery. Maybe increase tourism would help.
I suspect these numbers will not be met but its a nice Trump moment on the day the House delivered the Impeachment paperwork to the Senate.
Y’all don’t get it. China doesn’t care what the United States does or doesn’t do. China is now the world’s leader in international trade, as they purchase millions of acres of farmland and resources from South America and Africa, and negotiate trade deals directly with the EU and Asia.
They’re leading the world in quantum computer research, and are even devoting hundreds of billions of dollars toward renewable energy. Not because they’re nice. But because developing renewable energy is a national security matter. Poisoning the air with coal pollution for decades has caught up to them. In order to survive, the Chinese leadership knows it has to make improvements to air quality and the environment or face massive societal unrest in the long term. It’s 100% about long term self preservation.
Simpler put; because Trump has alienated the rest of the world, he has made China the world’s leader by default. This little ceasefire is not a victory for Trump. It’s just China’s way of telling the United States that it isn’t relevant anymore.
211
Well stated. But so far over the heads of Trump supporters that it may as well be on Neptune.
43
@Austin Ouellette
Here, in the US, think that China is still rural and kids being put to work....
China is investing in its own country. In its own infrastructure, its own education which is free, sports... etc!
All while the US keeps going down on almost on everything because divisiveness and hate is much more important ....
Too much discipline maybe... but Chinese save their money.... for things that matter.... and now the are investing it on their own kids sending them to the US to study.....
While in the US the education is system is mediocre compared to the rest of the world, Only the 1% has a chance and the rest of the people are drowning in debt!
Many stupid people complain about illegal immigration is taking their jobs. When the real threat is getting a magnificent education "legally" here in the US and are going to go after their jobs. Chinese didn't come here to take the illegal immigrants' jobs. The are here for yours, white collars....
Haven't seen how many Chinese engineerings there are here already working here....?
20
@Austin Ouellette
That said, they are nice enough not to invade random countries on the other side of the world or murder foreign officials in plain view. Which is probably the world trusts China on trade more than the US
13
So, Trump starts a trade war with China a couple years ago, and American workers and American farmers lose money and jobs because of it.
Now Trump announces a "deal" with China, saying they are going to purchase goods from us, but what about everything they stopped buying because of the trade war? What about the lost jobs, the lost crops?
This is a net LOSS for Americans, not something new that the U.S. and China are doing.
"Together we are righting the wrongs of the past." Wrongs that HE created! And don't forget that it's ANERICANS who pay the tariffs, not the Chinese.
He is punching us in the gut and telling us he's doing us a favor. Please. I hope and pray people aren't stupid enough to fall for that. The fact that Trump is in office has me thinking otherwise.
225
@DP You said it so well. Wake up Trump fans.
15
@Jgarbuz
Silly comment. China is to blame for Chinese actions. Trump is to blame for starting a trade war for which taxpayers are paying.
28
@DP Trump hasn't even right the wrongs he created. Many big tariffs remain in place for both sides. According to the article, the key issues are punted to Phase II which, conveniently, has been punted past the November elections...
4
Reading over the compliance and conflict remediation section of this agreement, it seems pretty overtly obvious that there is no real or effective mechanism to ensure either side will stick to the deal. All that is stated is that the US and China will have high level discussions in attempt to remedy any conflict but the only actionable recourse either side has is simply to withdraw from the agreement, which carries no consequences. In addition, there US and China are both given sole ability to determine their own compliance with the agreement, so it is setting up an inevitable argument over whose trade data and interpretations of the agreement are accurate. All this does is ensure that both sides will be able to game the system to their own advantage without repercussion. Without penalties for violating the agreement, for withdrawing from the agreement, and without an independent party to resolve disputes, this agreement is effectively meaningless. The Trump administration has learned nothing from the trade dispute with China. Or, more likely, they were again outwitted and are trying to shine an obvious boondoggle into a gem of win in order to impress their base, who can't tell the difference.
237
@Jason that is all Trump wanted in the first place.
21
@Jason
Big big difference you arent getting. If China doesnt comply, we hit them with tariffs again.
Previous agreements werent complied by because the US didnt demonstrate any strength. Trump slapped billions of dollars of tariffs on them, despite tremendous pressure from within his own country, and even his own party, not to do it.
He didnt care. Trump slapped them on with impunity, and it hurt the Chinese in a big way. Their GDP came crashing down.
Face it, this should have been done a long time ago. Previous Presidents allowed the Chinese to chat, and steal, and siphon away American manufacturing.
It was Trump that did it, because only he knew how. You could try to detract from it as hard as you want, but everyone knows it was an incredible achievement.
Bernie wouldnt know the first thing about trade, and Biden incredulously said China was no threat at all.
Both are business illiterate, compared to Trump.
It is estimated that American households have spent an average of $1300 each on Chinese tariffs. So much for China paying and not the American consumer. Thanks, Trump.
2
Another conflict generated by Trump and now his pretend fix- like NAFTA!
2
The imbalance of leadership at the signing (usually a condition of major importance to the Chinese), tells me they are just slightly on-board and the US probably requested the deal and signing hoopla. This appears to be more of a US domestic audience play for Trump. A counter news-cycle, if you will.
Stay focused, America.
Don't lose sight of Trump's Presidential perfidy just for a Phase One, half-baked trade announcement.
1
Same old same old. Trump starts the fire, puts it out and then takes credit for it.
6
That’s what narcissistic personality disordered people do. The character of the person in the White House matters immensely. It’s only one reason I’m voting for Bernie. Another is that everyone who is in their twenties and thirties knows, if we don’t elect Bernie, they will never have a life free from debt, despair or a sustainable, just future.
2
If you watched any of this ceremony on tv, you should have no doubt that Trump is losing his mind. He spent 40 minutes babbling about autographs he signs, eBay, Disney, Lindsey Graham’s golf skills and a bunch of other topics that were completely unrelated to his trade deal, such as it is. Everyone else in the room, include senior Chinese leaders, could do nothing except sit and listen to him. It was embarrassing.
The man is unwell. Yet Mitch McConnell, one of the few people who could actually protect the country from Trump, ignores it all so he can poison the judiciary for decades to come on behalf of his donors. That makes McConnell the ultimate villain in this disgraceful period in our history.
One of the few positive thoughts I have left about our sad state of affairs is that bad actors ultimately get their comeuppance. If that comes to pass, McConnell’s will be severe.
8
@Lionel Hutz Most Americans rejected Trump in 2016 does anyone honestly believe any anti Trump voters have changes their mind about Trump. I suspect far more regret and are ashamed of their vote for Trump.
1
i'm sure the chinese are happy to help the trump administration. they're looking forward to four more years of his disastrous presidency and the harm he is doing to this country
2
The farmers bailout ($30 BILLION) is larger than the auto bailout after the Bush Recession!
2
@Howard Clark Stop calling it a bailout it was corporate welfare for the richest 10% of American's farmers. On GOP welfare goes to the richest not the neediest. Huge Republican Cadillac Pickup Truck driving welfare queens.
Very little of this went to smaller American Farmers.
America's corporate farmers. Also the biggest user of illegal immigrant labor. More GOP Trickle up at the taxpayers expense. Bribing Iowa is much easier than bribing the Ukraine.
1
Haven't we already won the trade war?
1
And the stock market yawns.
The one predictable thing about President Trump is that he can never claim a success without putting down someone in the past who, in his opinion, failed where he thinks he succeeded. It's an unbecoming trait.
Perhaps people in the past were flawed or did things imperfectly. But least they got us this far.
4
@T Norris I think that criticisng people 'who got us this far' is fair comment. It strikes me that the US is in a poor situation in respect of rebuilding its industry and restoring its trade imbalances after the hollowing out of US manufacturing over the last 30 something years. Trump may not be making much progress in 'making America great again', but he has at least recognised the problem.
1
"China will commit to an additional $200 billion worth of American goods and services, ease the tariffs but the the US preserves the bulk of the tariffs on the $360 billion worth of Chinese goods..... "
Sounds like Enron type accounting to me.
Given that this agreement is stemming from a guy who is a habitual tax offender and does not know how to balance his financials (proof : six bankruptcies), this has to be a head fake.
1
A great achievement for Trump and American people. No other person would have dared to confront China currently to right its unfair trade practices.
4
@Alex
Daring is one thing, doing something that actually makes things better is another,
This is the old smoke and mirrors and China gets the win here, not the US,
The conflict Trump began with China has pushed China to look at its trade policy and partners anew, but going forward she is seeking to find partners she'll feel comfortable with. Bad news for farmers and others,
5
Despite all the negativity in the article and many of the comments, this agreement is a first step, and there will be more to follow. You cannot make an omelet without breaking some eggs, and the same applies here. China has been seriously abusing the US in many ways, and this is a first step towards getting to a fairer trade environment with China.
2
"Together we are righting the wrongs of the past".
In November we go to the polls to right the wrongs of the past 4 years so that DJT can spend all his time (as opposed to 80% of it as he does today) at his Mar a Lago resort playing double bogey golf.
The next president can then go about trying to undo all the trade deals and tax bills signed over the past 4 years so that all the economic wrongs can be undone.
7
No analysis of this "deal" that I've seen -- including in Foreign Affairs, Financial Times, Economist -- makes the case that it's anything important that addresses the base issues Trump has promised to resolve.
4
Good Article, but how the details of the trade deal will impact our economy could be discussed a bit more thoroughly.
1
I keep reading in these comments about how Trump created a problem, so that he could 'fix' it to accrue votes. You may not like his approach to commerce with China, but Trump didn't create the problems associated caused by trading with a corrupt, totalitarian regime with no regard for rule of law, only it's own survival, and the prosperity of it's leadership.
5
@Sigh With a two-word addition, your description could apply just as well to Trump's administration: "...a corrupt, WOULD-BE totalitarian regime with no regard for rule of law, only it's own survival, and the prosperity of it's leadership."
1
"But the agreement preserves the bulk of tariffs that Mr. Trump has placed on $360 billion worth of Chinese goods, and it maintains the threat of additional punishment if Beijing does not live up to the terms of the deal."
How is this a win for American consumers, exactly?
1
So, as expected, Trump yet again gifts governmental policy away to his private equity and hedge fund buddy-billionaires. In return, of course, for their underwriting of his political campaign. Americans still upset by his favoritism to this totally undeserving group of plutocrats in his previous tax bill should be outraged over the latest selection of trade “winners”. Naturally, one wonders about the secret, behind the scenes maneuvering for financial quid pro quo’s from Kushner, Mnuchin, Ross, and others.
3
It takes an electoral year for Trump to realize that his trade war with China was groundless and ill-fated for American farmers and companies. This deal is basically an acknowledgment of failure.
9
Nothing stops Trump from ripping up what he signed next week in some tantrum and them blame the Democrats for it.
It's what he does... and if it can change the news cycle.. you can bet money he will at least threaten to do so.
4
The a failing economy will be the trailing indicator of Trump's toxic policies. The momentum of the Obama years will slowly subside, and the Trump economic reality will slowly emerge.
3
Xi Jinping and Kim Jong Un both have more governing political experience and talent leading a nation state than Donald Trump and his Cabinet and White House sfaff combined.
Plus they are both significantly intellectually gifted, smarter and wiser than the Trump Administration.
Because of his immature intemperate insecure diva narcissist nature and nurture Trump is easily duped by flattery. Smoke, shadows and mirrors are effective.
Trump's vaunted.deal making talent is a myth that originated from his reality TV show.
The first and last best business 'deal' that Trump was hia ' choice' of New York City real estate baron daddy to inherit 295 streams of income from. That shielded Trump from being the single worst losing businessman in America over a ten year period.
7
This agreement is so weak.
I expected more given that it was worked on for months if not years. I love that it isn't really even done, future negotiations are up in the air and the whole thing can be terminated by either party with 60 days notice as per Article 8 tucked into the end:
Article 8.3: Entry into Force and Termination
2. Either Party may terminate this Agreement by providing written notice of termination to the other Party. The termination shall take effect 60 days after the date on which a Party has provided that written notice to the other Party, or on such other date as the Parties may decide.
Article 8.4: Further Negotiations
The Parties will agree upon the timing of further negotiations.
Article 8.5: Notice and Comment on Implementing Measures
Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, each Party shall provide no less than 45 days for public comment on all proposed measures implementing this Agreement. Each Party shall consider concerns raised by the other Party in any final measure or amendment intended to implement this Agreement.
3
Can't the Times do some research regarding this trade deal in terms of what has been lost/gained?
I would also be interested in just how much we will gain in revenue vs. the money spent propping up US farmers.
1
@Gdnrbob Prices started climbing when trump first announced the trade war with China. One thing for sure is that the prices will not go down just because a sort of deal has been done. Like Walmart already has you paying these higher prices so they won't do a major "roll back" to pre-trump prices. Sorry trump base you still aren't winning in this battle. US consumers are paying for the tariffs not China.
2
Looks like a PowerPoint set of bullets with no accountability measures built in. Perfect for Trump's base.
4
If you start a house fire, then take the first steps to putting out the fire after it's ruined the furniture in the living room, you don't get a star on your forehead.
5
I wonder what concessions were made to China that brought in their delegation on this very day to sign "phase 1"? Next week, Trump will broker peace in the Middle East.
Crisis created. Crisis solved. All by the same person.
10
One thing is certain - the NY Times and the majority of its readers have already decided that everything Trump does is bad no matter what the details are.
7
@PCHulsy No we are just not duped by smoke and mirrors. His mind changes with the wind. To copy from a poster above:
Article 8.3: Entry into Force and Termination
2. Either Party may terminate this Agreement by providing written notice of termination to the other Party. The termination shall take effect 60 days after the date on which a Party has provided that written notice to the other Party, or on such other date as the Parties may decide.
Article 8.4: Further Negotiations
The Parties will agree upon the timing of further negotiations.
Article 8.5: Notice and Comment on Implementing Measures
Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, each Party shall provide no less than 45 days for public comment on all proposed measures implementing this Agreement. Each Party shall consider concerns raised by the other Party in any final measure or amendment intended to implement this Agreement.
3
A complete and utter joke. The US got absolutely nothing from Trump’s actions except a lot of mindless noise and distraction from Trump and his Republican minions.
5
It doesn't matter in any way. The US is way beyond bankrupt, and that's one thing Trump knows about. The trillion dollar deficit due to Trump's giver-away to the 1% (I mean tax cut) will only get worse.
China laughs at him every day.
8
Please don't forget that two Canadian citizens have been jailed in China for more than a year in extremely harsh conditions and risk the death penalty because president Trump wanted to block Huawei. When the US asked Canada to arrest the vice-president of that company, president Trump said it might become part of his trade deal!! So, what is your government doing about that terrible situation?
3
This is terrible news. Democrats should have stopped this. The agreement makes Trump look good.
5
May I ask you to be specific about how?
1
@Mark McKay
Oh my goodness. We cant have that, Trump looking good. I mean, he might even get re-elected. Can you imagine that.
2
the wsj journal presents a good outline of Trump's accomplishments on Phase 1, and they are substantial. Of course, democratic politicians like Biden and Schumer will lie about the extent of accomplishment and the NYtimes here echos their lies. For informed and unbiased voters, this agreement should provide a substantial boost to Trump.
6
@sh I doubt Schumer and Biden, or any Democrat, will lie. What they will do is talk about the pain the tariff "war" has already caused to our economy and how weak overall ("studies show that American companies are bearing much of the cost. Since July 6, 2018, when the first tariffs went into effect, companies have paid more than $42 billion in tariffs related to the trade war with China"), this deal is especially to farmers; and only time will tell if China will buy more from US, respect intellectual property rights and quit their currency manipulation, as per the agreement. Unfortunately many US and Chinese tariffs will remain
2
What specifically was left out?
1
@sh I don't think so. Some of us are more informed than most in the trumper base. I am not biased either. I will vote for any republican or democrat or independent that can beat trump.
1
Did we get enough in this deal in exchange for the pain and bankruptcies this caused? Doubtful. Very doubtful.
8
@Mary
What pain and bankruptcies?
1
@bored critic Farmers on a large scale...small manufacturers who lost their supply chain. Where have you been?
4
@Mary
'Did we get enough in this deal in exchange for the pain and bankruptcies this caused? Doubtful. Very doubtful.'
I suggest you ask the farmers that went bankrupt,
just ask the ones that didn't commit suicide.
2
China has a multi-decade vision of the future. We have a President who can’t think faster than his shoes can carry him backed by self-serving trolls who can’t think past their next election.
At least now welfare maga farmers can start making payments back to the taxpayers of the US.
15
@T. Rivers trump wants America to go back to the 50s when we had very few things the ordinary person could afford. Remember when TVs came out & they were not affordable for most working families. Even $500 dollar cars were not affordable for working class people. Yeah, prices were cheaper but pay was less ($30 a week if you were lucky). trump would like for the farmers to go back to those days so his bail outs won't be so high.
1
Art of the deal? China. Winning!
4
Even though huffy Trump has excluded NZ from the privileges he has given other members of the 5 eyes spy group, I'd just like to add that NZ will profit from China opening its economic markets to the whole world as we have shares in the belt and road initiative. A long term investment that is going to pay big dividends for NZ. This is a well written article:-
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/105131647/chinas-belt-and-road-initiative-is-more-than-merely-infrastructure
3
Ridiculous. If anything was ever "fake," it was the trade war with China.
7
@C.L.S.
Really? Then why were dems so up in arms and ranting and raving about how the trade war was going to destroy america? You just are unable to admit that maybe, just maybe, trump can do something good.
2
Did/will Çhina take Citizen #1 to the "cleaners"?
2
@lftash Did and will continue to do so.
1
Munchausen By Proxy, government/business-style: Create the emergency, then come in with a "cure", walk away proclaiming yourself as a hero.
More snake oil by the Flim Flam Man in the White House.
20
We cannot trust the Chinese in anything they promise.
5
@NOTATE REDMOND
'We cannot trust the Chinese in anything they promise.'
Some people are saying Trump is not to be trusted with agreements, I couldn't possibly comment.
1
What are Lying Trump motives? To divert the public opinion from the ongoing impeachment trial?
Why are there only four GOP senates declared theirintention to be open to the testimony of witnesses?
Let's hope that Chief Justice Roberts will live up to the indepenndence of jurisprudence, and destroyn the GOP cover up.
4
I doubt Trump's press conference of his signing initial China Trade Agreement on the same day Speaker Pelosi sent impeachment charges to the Senate was a coincidence.
Nice attempt at deflecting the real story today - the impeachment charges being delivered to the Senate.
The fact that he seems to be dragging the VP around like a puppy dog does little to impress anyone either.
17
@Marge Keller
Actually the real story is the trade deal. The impeachment is more if political cartoon theater.
@Marge Keller
Oh look - Trump and Pence even have matching ties on today. How coincidental and ever so quaint.
5
@Marge Keller The real thing is the treaty, which puts Obama to shame. The theater in the Senate must now proceed with maximum damage to the Democrats in general, and to the Bidens in particular.
Interesting timing, especially since we weren't told what's in this agreement except in the broadest terms, and intellectual property theft is not in it. Sounds like once again Trump didn't do a better job negotiating than those who came before him.
6
@Barbara Intellectual property theft is in it.
4
@Barbara
Excuse me but what did those that came before him negotiate? What did obama negotiate with china?
1
Wow the amount of individual biased thoughts. Trump has done what no other President in US history has done. Openly spoke out, about the outright shameless, unethical trade practice of China and entered into official talks. I think it's about time, the US businesses, stopped using poor quality, cheeper Chinese products. instead of just looking at their bottom line, profit. A return to higher quality made in America products. That stated, Trump's lowering of Corporate taxes was a start, multiple US countries moved out to take advantage of lower tax rates with cheeper labor, to increase profit. The single-minded biased thought, that a start to correct decades of built up imbalance, seems to come from low-life, dirt-slining political rivals. Spin- doctor's of lies and description of the reality, in a vain attempt to turn, a rivals accomplishment, in their favor.
1
Free Trade has been replaced by managed trade.
And for the same reasons why we have not had free trade in agricultural goods for 100 years.
Peter Drucker explained in 2001 why this HAD to happen.
Let me quote The Economist (Nov 2001)
The next society
Tomorrow is closer than you think. Peter Drucker* explains how it will differ from today, and what needs to be done to prepare for it"
"The new protectionism"
"The decline of farming as a producer of wealth and of livelihoods has allowed farm protectionism to spread to a degree that would have been unthinkable before the second world war. In the same way, the decline of manufacturing will trigger an explosion of manufacturing protectionism—even as lip service continues to be paid to free trade. This protectionism may not necessarily take the form of traditional tariffs, but of subsidies, quotas and regulations of all kinds. "
Peter Drucker 2001
And 19 years later it happened, just as the founder of management theory predicted.
The full article is available at
https://www.economist.com/special-report/2001/11/03/the-next-society
6
I believe you have, and/or Missed the point of the Trade Agreement process. The initial opening of trade talks and the take notice of this US actions. Cover's multiple dimensions of Fare Trade abuse on China's part. intellectual property, unethical Trade practice, the list goes on and on. Somewhere in your Orwellian theory filled mind, you have fell into single-mindedess area of reality, a victim of confirmation bias. The Farmers have a small part of the ongoing talks. China's need for US Farmers products at this point, exist purely on a ill-fated Chinese Farm and Swine incident, last year.
No other country in the world will have any sympathy for the US if China decides to simply disregard the “deal” at any time including the day before the election. No one is bound to honor any agreement signed with an American administration whose word is universally held to be worthless. Common law states that contracts signed under threats are void.
16
The Trade Agreement exists between the United States of America and China. Not Trump and China, The agreement passed the Democratic House and Republican Senate, because it is an official government to government Trade Agreement. Not a reality TV show.
@William
Nice try, but completely irrelevant.
The Iran deal was between America and Iran. Not Trump and Iran. Thus, it was dishonored by America. Not Trump.
So it is America’s word which is worthless.
1
Did I miss something? Exactly, what "wrongs of the past" are being righting by the U.S. and China? Trying to "push China to change its ways?"
5
Today's big agreements with China are minor adjustments in the disputes. Leave it to Trump to inflate the importance of this, as well as take all the credit. I hope he also remembers to take credit for the lost jobs and foreclosed farms his policies caused. And don't forget to take the credit for using billions of taxpayer dollars (that's my money and yours, readers) to bail out the farmers--or, as I would call it, buying votes-- after his tariffs sank their businesses.
18
@Barbara
Agreed but it’s a fight that has to be fought and the farmers were the collateral damage.
2
No, Sam, she’s saying, and I agree, that it’s not a “fight that had to be fought”.
3
This is not a trade deal. Trade deals recognize that it is private firms and businesses not governments who buy goods and services. Trade deals aim to achieve efficiencies between firms trading in different nation states so they can buy and sell more with lower transaction costs. This so-called "trade" deal is more like an aspiration to suggest that China should buy more in a variety of categories. It neither spells out who or what will want to buy more from the US, nor does it have any real enforcement mechanism. This in my opinion is a Frankenstein monster of a deal, as we today refer to the "anti-hero" in novels, this deal is in reality the "anti-trade deal" since it does absolutely nothing to encourage mutual trade between the US and China, and superimposes on the market an artificial and contrived notion of how much and what China should buy. As an American citizen, I find this deal repulsive and yet another example of the brave new world of false nomenclature and fake news that Trump has created. So sad.
13
Such a sad narrow minded view of a multiple dimensional Trade Talk Agreement. This is just phase one of the agreement. Working out the long list of issue, will take a few more years. Yet just like having to walk from your house to the store, to accomplish the mission, you have to take the first step. Wouldn't you like to stop Chinese businesses from underselling at a lost for years, to run their competition out of business, to take over the market, stop? multiple articles right here in the NYT on this subject.
@William Predatory pricing is irrational and ineffective as long as there are no barriers to entry. What Trump has done through tariffs is the equivalent of price rises from thousands of anticompetitive mergers. Americans buy Chinese goods because they meet a need and are affordable. We don’t need protectionism for US businesses that are less efficient. I’m fine with buying from China and so are many other consumers.
Another campaign promise fulfilled. Trump' hard ball negotiating style makes Obama's fumbling, bumbling attempts to deal with China and to stop them from cleaning our clock economically look amateurish, at best.
7
@paul You wanna tell me exactly what is in this deal?
8
@paul
You can put some cats in the over, but don't expect me to call them biscuits.
2
@DrG
A lot more than anything obama negotiated with china. 'Nuff said?
This economic laymen is, as usual, not sure what to think about this new deal: Some experts say it "really significant"; others say it's "really disappointing."
I'm sure Dr. Krugman and the NYTimes will ravage it, while state TV, viz., FOX & Friends, will rave over its greatness.
They both can't be right, so I'll run with Dr. K, as usual. Besides, what does it really matter, as Trump says about another controversy of his? I have no influence whatsoever to change even the smallest part of it. All I can do is stand back and watch while the movers-and-shakers control our world.
"Crying won't help, and praying don't do you no good."
~ Robert Plant (Led Zeppelin)
3
@Jim Muncy "so I'll run with Dr. K, as usual"
Of course. Remember Dr. K was dead wrong on ALL the predictions he made, most of all the deep economic crisis in which we should have entered 3 years ago. He may be a famous Dr., and may have a Nobel prize, but when it comes to actual economics, any veterinary Dr. is better than him.
1
Another Trump farce. He adds tariffs that hurt our farmers and citizens to look tough. Then we shell out billions in bailouts to them. And in a crisis moment for him he brings out another scam deal. How those people who were sitting in that White House weren't gagging is beyond me.
14
@karen Here's something to keep in mind: His help to farmers was not a bailout. It didn't begin to make up for lost sales from the healthy markets we had developed during decades of being a reliable trading partner. Grain farmers had historic highs under Prez Obama. Then disaster. Just don't think there was a bailout. It was a joke. A damaging joke because so many think it made farmers whole again. Didn't come close.
2
@the oracle It did help the big agri farms though. That is who he cares about other wealthy people.
1
Another nothing trade deal done just to be able to claim a deal was signed!
15
For the people who think that China is still no man's land.....China is investing in its own country. In its own infrastructure, technology, its own education which is free, sports... etc!
All while the US keeps going down on almost on everything because divisiveness and hate is much more important ....
Too much discipline maybe... but Chinese save their money.... for things that matter.... and now the are investing it on their own kids sending them to the US to study.....
While in the US the education system is mediocre compared to the rest of the world, Only the 1% has a chance and the rest of the people are drowning in debt!
Many stupid people complain about illegal immigration is taking their jobs. When the real threat is getting a magnificent education "legally" here in the US and are going to go after their jobs.
Chinese didn't come here to take the illegal immigrants' jobs. The are here for yours, white collars....
Haven't seen how many Chinese engineerings there are here already working here....?
4
Trump saves agri-business billionaires, America's family farms crushed: https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2019/12/27/trump-china-tariffs-farmers-subsidies/#6f04a8725b39
3
I think this is a wise move. With the election coming up the country doesn't have time for this trade war. After President Trump wins the election there will be plenty of time to hammer the Chinese with tariffs.
4
@Keitr Like after he won the first election?
5
@DrG
I’m just saying that even given the importance of standing up for corporate property rights we can afford to wait until after the election if that’s what it takes to ensure re-election
Can we be rightfully amazed at a President who has actually worked to keep most campaign promises?
Agree or not with him, like him or hate him, we all have to agree that it is quite a novelty to see that campaign promises can actually survive beyond campaigns ---- given the last several administrations we have had.
15
Since Trump never worries about unintended consequences, it would be wise to wait and see.
3
@Si Seulement Voltaire Unless his campaign promise was to take actions to actively harm the American economy, trade power, and international influence with an ultimate goal of creating an unenforceable, feckless "agreement" with China, he still hasn't fulfilled any.
17
Yes I am sure all those farmers who have declared bankruptcy are thrilled. The Chinese have invested too much farming help in South America to turn back now.
12
This issue of China opening up its markets to the world has been in the planning longer than Trump has been President. He has rebranded this trade war to include trade deals with the USA as a success for him, when in fact China has been working on this issue for years. It just means that the USA won't be able to go to war with China if the USA and China financial institutions are entwined. The markets are being opened to the whole world, not just USA. Do a web search: China is opening up its financial markets to the world.
5
@CK Ooops! Should read; do a web search: China is opening up its markets to the whole world
2
@CK
You may be right that many have wanted deals before, but do admit that this is the first signed agreement when others only spoke about the issue.
That is what ultimately counts.
4
@CK No, not at all true. More accurately, China is trapping the mid-level developing economies along their belt (land) and road (sea) trading routes in Asia, E Europe and east and central Africa in "Debt Diplomancy" for Chinese owned/leased/benefiting infrastructure (ports, rail, etc) that they will use to control those weak governments who unlike China, work on short election based timelines and coalitions vs decade-level-planning with centralized control.
All while continuing to steal IP from naive US/EU companies who are desperate to "get into the Chinese market" (until China locks them out with a state-subsidized local replica), and whose naive governments think that "eventually!!!!" China will "open up". All while China laughs and continues their real policy of expanding ethno - nationalism (Han rule) over their neighbors and beyond.
4
I must be missing something here. How is the trade war 'drawing to a close' if all the tariff taxes are still in place?
Sounds to me like Trump is still going to charge us regular Americans extra taxes and China is going to keep taxes on US products. We got nothing out of this deal except for a vague promise from China to buy more farm products, sometime in the future. This is the best Mr. Big Businessman Dealmaker could come up with?? Pathetic.
18
I don’t care how many trade deals this guy makes or even brings world peace, corruption is corruption. Period! Let’s get our priorities straight.
13
Why was Trump's Chinese counterpart not there for the signing? China is adding insult to injury, it seems.
On substance: the few "wins" are measures China was adopting (or in many cases has already adopted) anyways, deal or no deal, and they will apply to all foreign investors, not just American. Trump took the US and China through much grief, generating considerable leverage, only to blow it on smoke and mirrors. I guess his only remaining goal in this sorry affair was to improve his own re-electability, which he may have done. This is borderline impeachable imho.
7
So in other words; Trump gave in......
24
This is China paying an easy ransom they hope will get them through the year and into the next president. They already committed two years ago to buy $200 billion more in American products, so that's no windfall. The rest of it is meaningless. Trump is trying to make a complete debacle look like a victory. "Made in China 2025" is still on, as is Chinese government subsidies for various businesses. Trump failed, just as we knew he would.
14
Given a choice I would feel much better being on the China team today. "Sign here Donald or we'll walk and you can kiss your reelction goodbye. Also we'll be back during the election cycle to complete the deal."
104
@RNS It's the Art of the Deal (Con).
Over two years just $32 billion, or 16 percent, of the purchases will be of farm products such as oilseeds, meat and cotton. That's a drop in the bucket.
9
@RNS
Excellent point. They will be back and then he can either sacrifice his own re-election or sacrifice US farmers and businesses. Does anybody doubt what he will do?
15
"Welcome back, my friends
To the show that never ends
We're so glad you could attend
Come inside! Come inside"
14
Perfect.
2
Addressing the way China required firms doing business in China to share proprietary knowledge annoyed the businesses but the money that they made was too good to forego, and they would not make formal complaints against China for fear of losing that business. So no international bodies which might end the practice could do anything. So as potentially destructive as tariffs can be, they were one way to encourage China to change it’s ways.
However, maintaining the tariffs is going to interfere with trade and raise prices for consumers of imported goods. It’s doubtful that the requirement for China to buy more is going to have the desired effects of restoring the kind of sales of manufactured goods that will restore the manufacturing sector as is represented. The global economy which presents the only means for such trade is diversified so much that it’s doubtful that businesses and investors are going to change supply chains to invest here. That would mean American wages would have to shrink and the externalities like poisoned air and water would have to be accepted. That’s the plan for Trump with his eviscerating of government regulations, to turn the country into a dead zone in the biosphere to attract short sighted capital investment. Once Americans get it, they will reject it.
2
The ankle biters are out in force.
Too bad we can’t revert to the good old days of our economic and military opponents eating our lunch like the Obama presidency, I suppose.
In the meantime, the usual suspects herein can also snipe at Trump’s 3.5% unemployment rate. You know, because Dems will lower it to 2.5% somehow after re-imposing crushing rules and taxes if they win.
10
Tariffs are paid by the consumers not the producers. Trade wars destroy trade. This situation is very dicey.
15
Let me get this straight: Trump is declaring victory by keeping tariffs in place. So victory means that we, the American consumers, get to continue paying billions of dollars in tariffs? I'm tired of all this winning.
32
So Americans all get to pay extra import taxes on everything and failed 1920s protectionist policies are revived. Brilliant job.
16
This is akin to phase 1 of Trump's emergency Saturday Walter Reed physical. We'll never see any info or results.
4
How in the world does anyone think Trump brokered a trade deal with China? Yet another embarrassing performance by the most vacuous leader in the 21st century.
3
Reading all the negative posts regarding this trade deal reminds me of why I left both parties and became an independent. The same critiques about how lame of a deal it is because of the lack of details and needing to work out issues as they come up sounds just like the negative opinions about the ACA. The difference is, this is the New York Times comment section, I expected better. Sounds like the comment section of Newsmax when the ACA was passed. Sad!
By the way, Donald Trump did not create a problem. Almost every democrat presidential candidate is in favor of using tariffs to punish China for all types of misbehaviors. Bernie Sanders had said he will use it in regards to labor practices and environmental issues in China.
The world trade organization can only rule on issues, they cannot enforce anything. The US has won the last eight opinions at the WTO. Tariffs is the only real weapon to use. By the way, it was farmers in important swing states that were hurt most during this trade war. If it had been big tech or Hollywood hurt everyone would be saying he’s just doing this to punish his political opposition. Donald Trump actually did very non-political things during this trade war. Promising to make China pay and not doing anything about it would been the easy road. He is actually taking economic hits to do this.
Donald Trump is a lying loudmouth. But after watching the debate last night I don’t really see much competition for him.
6
@jason
just to remind you, WHo's going to pay for the wall too?????
5
@jason
I don't care who supports tariffs. I don't support tariffs, aka taxes not passed by Congress (didn't we leave the UK when they taxed us without representation?). So long as there are tariffs in place, I don't see any deal as a 'win' for the US. More like a bunch of probably empty promises from the Chinese side and some minor concessions from the US side. Meanwhile, every individual and business continues to pay the price for Trump's waste of time trade war.
The better solution would have been to ignore China and architect an alternate trade network that bypassed them. Something like the TPP, but on a grander scale. Create some competition for Chinese manufacturing and let the free market abandon them of its own accord.
7
@Mr. Adams
I get it. Tariffs at the end of the day is bad economics. But we are in a situation with China that is very complicated. I was able to listen to Senator Max Bacchus, Barack Obama‘s ambassador to China, Explain how the United States needs to decide if we treat China as an equal and expect them to play by rules or treat them as lying criminals and try to contain them internationally. And that’s a liberal perspective.
I just find it very inconsistent for so many people to be bashing Trump’s trade negotiations with China when everybody knew something had to be done and cannot continue On.
2
Once again China promises nothing substantial. The conman got conned once again!
11
Regardless of the benefits of the trade deal, Trump's press conference today was a disgrace and a degradation of the office of the President. He acted like an immature, raving lunatic. Maybe the Cabinet should have him removed before the Senate opens its trial.
10
We need to keep our energy, preferably in the ground. We need to keep our water, which is becoming scarcer, instead of sending it abroad in the form of agricultural crops. We are the ones who will suffer the environmental destruction of the oil and gas industries, and from the absence of clean water.
1
Like everything Trump, I bet this is just a show for his political gain, with less in substance than its said or claimed to have.
8
@Fread
It all relies on China keeping their word in the face of continuing tariffs.
1
@Dan
sorta like Iran, right?
1
@Jordan
Sorta, except that the Iran deal was actually being monitored, and the Iranians were sticking to it. China has a long history of promising whatever, and never following through. Pay attention.
2
The world's corporations wept when they had to hand over secrets to China to get into their market...but they did it over and over and over again. And, those who didn't are either smaller or gone.
Excuse me while I wring my hands over my portfolio gains.
2
For some reason Trump seems to have the huff with NZ as well. We're members of the 5 eyes spy group and has allowed all other nations who are members exceptions from some sort of taxes or tariffs and excluded NZ. Probably his way of feeling in control by bullying a small nation whose major trading partner is China. We do it better than the USA folks so to exclude such a small nation really shows that he sees us as a threat to his ego.
5
@CK
Don’t be too concerned. The dotard will be gone in November and the new President will get a better trade agreement in place.
China have signed on for what suits at the moment, but they are just waiting for him to be gone !
8
@CK
And I remember a virtue-signaling NZ poking us in the eye over visits by our navy ships.
More than willing to live under the control of the Pacific we provide but don’t bring nukes near us, etc.
NZ is like Canada in smugness only less relevant.
1
@EGD Then it might be a good idea to remove your Antarctic base from Christchurch NZ and fly your own sick emergency staff at Antarctic to the USA instead of to our free public hospitals for life saving treatment. The Southern Ocean is under NZ territorial authority. And it is in our constitution that we are a nuclear free nation so you should respect our nations sovereign constitution. The only reason Trump hasn't kicked us our of the 5 eyes spy group is probably egotistic because he doesn't want the group to be known as 4 eyes.
1
"Senator Chuck Schumer, the minority leader from New York, criticized the agreement for failing to address China’s state-owned enterprises and industrial subsidies."
And Trump gives the farmers $28 billion, and gives corporations a trillion dollars in breaks.
The DoD basically controls military related industries.
What's the difference?
12
It's the kind of deal I expected from a reality-TV game show host.
15
How soon do the farmers pay the Treasury back?
72
It's hard to believe that so many posting here actually didn't see any problems with our Chinese trades. Really? Trump caused the problem?
4
@PanchoVilla
Trump didn’t cause the problems with state owned business and intellectual property theft in China. China did. Trump did, and by this agreement continues to, tax me by imposing tariffs that I must pay on Chinese goods imported to the US.
8
Classic Trump - surrender, then get out in front of the cameras and tell the minions that he won bigly. SAD.
37
Trump keeps peddling the nonsense that China is paying the tariffs when every economist including Peter Navarro knows that's horsefeathers. But it plays to his base that doesn't understand how tariffs work, and they don't even care.
27
These comments: absolutely incapable of giving Trump credit for anything, if this had been "yes we can's" triumph you would hear Democrat praise on the moon.
8
@Jordan
I'll give him credit for this: he almost solved a problem of his own making.
6
@Jordan There is no triumph, the deal has no enforcement elements, its all a show to convince you that somethings was done when nothing actually was.
8
@Jordan
Why should I give Trump credit? Credit for what?
I'll give him credit for ending his own stupid policies when the tariffs are gone. Unfortunately, this deal doesn't get rid of them.
4
Next month trump will announce further tariffs against China, or the EU, or Romney’s go-to planet. Drama queen.
5
Of course no Chinese were at the signing, and no one knows what's in the so called deal. There's your hoax!
6
@bobdc6 Well, I guess you have to go to different news sources, try Bloomberg for starters, to see the pictures you obviously need for validation. When I was a kid (don't ask) the saying was: "Read it in the Times; see it in the News."
2
@fFinbar Thanks, can you tell me where to go to find the content also?
Anyone who believes Donald Trump has an IQ south of their own shoe size. Or a diploma from “Trump University.”
8
Thank you Mr President for standing up for the future of our country.
5
“A trade that seemed it would never end”? Missed it by that much. Another victory for the US.
2
@Shamrock
Americans paying higher prices is what constitutes a "win" for you?
Dear God......
20
@Palmer Only if they buy stuff that says "Made in China." I don't; do you?
2
@fFinbar
Good luck with that. Even Ray Bans, Red Wing boots, and Levis are made in China these days.
2
Many elements of the deal will make the Chinese economy stronger. The New York Times points this out in a related article.
The effect of this debacle of a trade war has been the US Government giving massive cash handouts to farmers. Tax Dollars...used to prop up families who were specifically hurt by this foolishness.
Some how, trump still thinks this is a "win".
Dear God.....what a disaster.
37
@Palmer All anyone needs to do is to Google trade war farmers. Trump has done nothing but cost Americans money and to lose massive numbers of farmers across the U.S. This is no win. His cult believe whatever Fox News blasts on their channel.
4
@Palmer There were no massive handouts. It was a pittance. Believe me, I know. I'm using what i received to try to hold on to farmland that's been in my family for four generations. Would rather do without the money and have sane ag policies that allow us to compete. The damage is deeper than most know. The big winners of the Trade War have been producers elsewhere in the world, particularly famers in Brazil and Argentina. They moved into the markets we worked to develop for 50 years. Doubtful things will ever be the same after Trump's destructive rule.
4
Now that the deal is done...how are the Wall Street "experts" going to continue to rationalize the absurd valuations that exist in the stock market?
For almost three years, every new record was accompanied with the same over-used headline:
"Stocks Soar On Trade Optimism"
Or:
"Nasdaq At Record High On Trade Deal Optimism"
Looks like the "experts" will be looking for a new headline to defend a market bubble that is beginning to dwarf 1999.
55
@John I guess they'll find a new headline when/if the bubble bursts. But that headline just isn't appropriate while things are going well.
@John
Future earnings are already baked in to the stock market surge, based on anticipation of a China trade deal and Trump being
re-elected President...what bubble?
Stocks have book values which reflect owner equity and market values which reflect perceived values of buyers and sellers, and the twain are only tenuously related.
The stock market over the long run, very long run, follows the real economy but in the short run depends upon human imaginations tying to overcome uncertainty.
Trump played a game with stocks long ago where he misrepresented the business prospects for his businesses to encourage investors to buy. Then he’d sell off his shares to take profits from the run up in prices. Eventually the investors stopped listening to him.
For Trump life is a game and reality is mutable.
13
Why the negativity? We have just taken a breather, and paused rapid progress toward a volatile, war-like situation. We have clear evidence that China blinked; China clearly understands they have more to lose. One step at a time. This is a good outcome.
4
@Kalidan
The United States has issued over $20 Billion in welfare to farmers, and more farms went bankrupt over the last 3 years than during the farming crisis of the Reagan administration, but in your eyes China has more to lose?
You are operating off a very odd definition of that word.
21
@Austin Ouellette
If you see where the said farmers, recipients of $20 billion are located, you'll know why Trump was eager; he paying them back for their undying support (2016, 2020). China blinked because they signed a deal; they would do this for no other country - but throw a fit, do a lot of theatrics, and walk away from the table. They didn't.
1
@Kalidan
So, why is Trump using my tax dollars to reward his supporters? And why don’t you call it what it is - embezzlement?
Also, all we have is a promise, from a country that still has tariffs imposed on its exports to the US.
1
Credit to the president, he has done some good work that previous administrations failed at, however I am still pessimistic about China.
China's miracle (the bulk of which is less than 30 years old) has been built by about 600 million consumers and workers. They still have another 800 million plus consumers and workers including millions of highly educated nationals.
I fear our current progress has been helped by Xi Jinping overreach with his extravagant silk road. It feels like the communist party have pushed pause, so it can regroup and reassess its positions. I see no large scale opposition to the government nor do I think most Chinese want our messy freedoms over their controlled and disciplined social order. China will eventually have the raw numbers to overrun our rules and thus way of life.
American economic might was built in the shadow of post war European reconstruction. Our dominance is based on our power (and generosity) towards post WW2 European society. We faced little or no foreign opposition! China however, is too independent for us to wrestle with and overwhelm. We can only hope to end up in a managed partnership but with China playing the lead role, just like we currently enjoy with Europe.
Americans should prepare for the moment, we lose the little leverage we have and they start to dismantle our global rulebook. Perhaps a good place to begin is by toning down our imperialistic rhetoric about them.
7
Another failed policy that created hardships for Americans. Farmers who have gone bankrupt because they could not sell their goods to China and in there mean time China found other countries to buy from and will not come back to US to buy. All Americans have paid more for goods purchased from overseas. To the tune of Billions of dollars. Why doesn't trump tell the truth about his horrible trade policies. Where all sides lose?
30
@Rich ok, I'll play. So say China buys all their beans from Mexico now. Where does the country that was buying those Mexican beans go now? The Chinese came to the table for good reason; it was in their best interest.
By the way, tax payers were not footing the tariff bill no matter how many times you repeat it. Check the numbers. Read the NYT Business, CNBC....
1
@PanchoVilla Do not know the numbers you are talking about but WE THE PEOPLE are now all paying more because of the tariffs, which are taxes, on goods. It is good for China to come to the table about Intellectual property rights, but there are other ways to even do that. Trump like everything he does is ham handed, sloppy and not smart. Where would trump be in business if Russian Oligarchs did not bail him out when US Banks would not loan to him anymore because he is a bad risk!
Well, Trump has tried in his usual haphazard way to address problems w/China trade, N Korea, NATO payments, NAFTA. but these are issues that Obama did not really tackle at all. At least he's trying.
3
@Jay Miller
Haphazard is an appropriate term, here and in everything associated with Mr Trump. Let’s see how long this lasts; another week or two and we may have, once again, severed relations with China (again). Trump is a roller coaster ride with many collisions!
7
@Jay Miller
You draw a distinction between rational nuance and haphazard blundering. And pretend that the blundering is a good thing.
1
A brilliant move by DJT - finally got Chinese attention to the lopsided and unfair trade practices we have allowed over many years. Brought billions in in tariffs to the treasury, and imminent predictions of exploding inflation never occurred; that is because the rest of the world stepped in and we brought similar goods from other countries. Also companies realized they had to bite the bullet and kept or reduced their prices to keep market share. Yes, we gave some of the tariffs to the farmers because they bore the brunt of the backlash from Chinese.Trump deserves a pat on the back!
6
@alan China is the winner, not us. Farmers had to receive bailouts if the qualified, and some will never recover. We Americans paid 100% of all tariffs issued.
56
tell it to the folks in the Midwest experiencing a manufacturing recession thanks to this brilliant strategy. Which, incidentally, makes the USA nothing more than a glorified Australia. A year from now China will have found other sources of pork and soy and will come back from a true position of strength.
21
@alan Tariffs were not paid by China to US treasury, they paid by US consumers in higher prices for good
14
China should not trust him as he'll probably do a turnaround after the USA elections. What sort of country forces as another nation to buy its products. NZ is a free trade nation and China is the biggest purchaser of New Zealand export orders and we don't force China to buy our goods.
China is probably laughing all the way to the bank as it is opening up its nation to global interest with conditions attached. That should work out well for China and there proposed overland Silk Road transport system. China will get richer and richer and buy more exports off New Zealand.
16
@CK
What, a problem Jacinda cannot solve? That cannot be!! Does she know? Have you told her? Why not?
1
Announcing this trade deal gave Trump an opportunity to filibuster the Impeachment proceedings.He introduced everyone at the ceremony and gave long biographies to enhance his time on center Stage.He loves the limelight and will grab any excuse to find it, even flying to New Orleans for the National Anthem at the college football championship.At the Trade signing he brought in his big donors ( Sheldon Adelson) and lavishly praised them.The signing of the trade deal was more a campaign event than a serious exposition of trade priorities.I have no idea what the deal accomplished!
46
Partisanship is another word for blindness. No Trump fan here, but taking on China on trade is something the last 3 presidents should have done,but did not presumably under a misguided view that “strategic” considerations trumped (no pun intended) the country’s economic needs.
Better something than nothing and others can build on this deal, now that China has seen that we may stick up for our interests.
5
@50 years is enough , the damage has been done. Farmers and manufacturers have lost markets, fired employees and gone out of business. Whether this will change China is still up in the air. This is just phase one. TPP would have been far more effective an far less disruptive to our economy. We will pay for these tariff wars for years.
25
@50 years is enough Do a little research nothing would’ve been better then Trump forcingtaxpayers were forced to give billions to bail out at farmers all of those increased tariffs have been added into the product costs and when and if the tariffs go away those businesses are not going to drop their costs it’ll just give them a bigger bonus
3
@lisa
Agreed.
And my spouse’s corn and soybean farmer cousins aren’t hurting in the least from tRump trade policies.
1
And Wall Street's reaction? A very big yawn.
4
@jmilovich
Market baked in this deal weeks ago. I’ll post links if you’d like.
4
@jmilovich "buy on the rumor, sell on the news". Remember?
3
Let’s not give him credit, he single-handedly started this trade war.
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@Shannon yeah, we were doing so well with the Chinese before Trump.
3
@PanchoVilla
And trump made it worse.
2
@PanchoVilla trade wars good! easy!
1
One has to give him credit for distractions. He is a master. So tiring.
47
@Kristine did you happen to watch Nancy on the House floor during the signing. Talk about distractions... . Why, she must have had this planned for a whole 2 days.
1
Trump 101; Cause a problem; claim to fix it;call it a Promise Kept. Meanwhile; taxpayers paid $28 Billion; yes; Billion to Patriot Farmers; Welfare for Republicans. Trump cut SNAP(food) for kids. Thx
326
@Ray Sipe trump turned farmers into the number one welfare recipients...Over 20 BILLLION paid to them for their losses caused by another one of trump's failed and uninformed policies. Good business man? hahahahahahah! The US will end up like trump's casinos: Bankrupt!
37
@Jgarbuz
I say start them in the factories And reopened coal mines at 8 years old!
16
@Jgarbuz So you would like a nice Caste system like in India. Also, you are able to tell magically when one is just a ditch digger for all time vs not given an education that provides the tools to excel?
10
Create a problem just to solve it.
49
@Alan C. Yeah, 'solve' it at a loss! Just like his casino bankruptcies...
Another “best deal in the history of the United States” - can we hear it ringing from Trump’s mouth?
15
Surely this must the "best trade deal ever" in the create-a-problem half-fix the problem world of Trump. Pence and Mnuchin are standing behind their man smiling like adoring spouses. Now that the stable genius has solved world trade and reduced deaths from cancer, he will next as "the environmentalist" rescue us from climate disaster, but only of course if he is re-elected in 2020.
19
Classic Trump. Lots of missing details, much pushed off into the future, plenty left as “Why, sure they will.” Adorable backhand slap at Joni Ernst, too...she not been enough of a toady lately?
One thing you can be sure of: this ends up benefitting the financiers and banks mentioned most. Same-same as with the Big Tax Fest. The wealthiest get a trough and a snorkel to go with their muzzle, the suckers get...well, what DO the suckers get?
Wake up, kids. And Senator Ernst? Sooner than you think, the day’s gonna come when you regret not standing up amd awarding trump a glorious digit.
15
"Unlike those who came before me". As a general statement this is so true. As far as accomplishments? Everything he does, including tax cuts, judicial appointments, anything to do with the environment, puts us in worse shape. Arrogant and ignorant. The worst combination.
41
Typical Trump MO, good for Wall St. hedge fund billionaires, bad for tens of millions of Americans who are still paying higher prices because of the tariffs whose burden falls on them. Another nothingburger from the do nothing liar in chief.
20
Congratulations Mr President.
The Democrats are busy doing the country's work, oh wait, the Democrats are working on impeachment, still.
Sorry about that.
And once again congratulations Mr President.
6
@Tom ,Retired Florida Junkman
...and congratulations to Wall Street:
“He called out a litany of Wall Street executives, many of whom have been pressing for greater access to China’s financial services market, including Stephen A. Schwarzman, the chief executive of the private equity firm Blackstone Group; Kenneth C. Griffin, the billionaire founder of the hedge fund Citadel; and the heads of Citibank, Visa, Fidelity Investments and American International Group.”
When will we pick up the clue phone?
6
@Tom ,Retired Florida Junkman Trump caused the problem he forced taxpayers to bail out the farmers with billions in our money jobs have been lost steel plants just announce closure in Detroit stable genius isn’t a genius
5
@Tom ,Retired Florida Junkman
Since when is the US President, above the law?
President’s need to be accountable for their words and actions. I assume you would feel the same about a Democrat President whose actions were similar to those of Trump.
2
Watched the president on his 'thank you, you're a good friend' WH tour today and near as I could tell the only person he forgot to thank was Lev.
7
Picture says it all; Mnuchin foreclosed on you grannies house;Pence exploded the AIDS epidemic in his state;Trump single handedly split America in two pieces and handed us to Russia
18
What job, what deal, he started it and I am sure very little changed. He is just correcting a problem he created. A very biggly, biggly deal!
17
Yes we can be thankful for this small increment of progress. No, Trump Our Savior has not singlehandedly brought the Chinese to the point of trade capitulation, regardless of what he may claim.
If he can stop bloviating and tweeting for just a little while, perhaps his negotiators and the Chinese can make some real progress over time. Believe it when you see it.
1
Not much of a deal. American farmers have lost their market and China will have a hard time increasing its purchase of agricultural goods over and above what it did before this all happened. American manufacturers and consumers must still pay tariffs on goods and raw material from China (Trump says he'll lift those tariffs after the November elections—don't hold your breath). And the agreement does little to open Chinese markets to American goods. All in all, this deal is mostly for show—typical Trump propaganda.
58
For me it would be illuminating to see analysis that shows us what this Administration has brought about in this arena that was NOT the status quo before Trump took office. What’s the big deal?
7
This trade agreement will be in effect till King Trump of Twitter land will start his anger against APPL over encryption issues even though APPL is helping best as they can.
2
I've seen more of Vice President Pence in January briefings and photos than the past three years combined.
Is this administration trying to tell us something? Like perhaps, in case you've forgotten, this is what Mike Pence looks like and he is the current VP?
4
@Marge Keller Mike is trying to make himself relevant he’s nervous about Nikki
1
Create problem, make a big show, end self-inflicted harm, claim victory, repeat. Yes there's an evil genius behind our apprentice President's Modus Operandi.
279
@Haynannu Create problems????
What are you talking about ? Ah, now I understand: of course Trump creates problems for the Democrats !!
Yes, Democrats, you have really big problems with this President, so big you are not even ble to "create" an alternative to him....
4
@Haynannu It's a good story arc and looks fine on TV.
1
@Haynannu
I agree! Trump's expertise is to shoot himself in the foot and the country along with him, then make a "deal" no better than the original one and claim he won for the American people. Meanwhile, farmers especially were hurt by the trade war with China.
16
In all this trade politics, the U.S. should be careful what it wishes for. When the U.S. imposed a numerical quota on Japanese autos in the 1970s, we saw the Japanese car companies move up the value chain as Toyota, Honda, and Nissan gave birth to Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti. Additionally, Japanese car companies off-shored the product of parts and assembly to places like Mexico and Kentucky. Both of these actions essentially dismantled the auto industry and gutted the industrial Midwest. In an alternate history, the U.S. would have refrained from the quota and encouraged innovation and competition for the American Big Three. This would have made the restructuring of the American industry happen faster and provided it a much better chance to thrive in the U.S.
In the case of China, we already see that recent tariffs accelerate innovation in the Chinese economy, making them much more potent competitors. To bypass the U.S. tariffs, Chinese are already off-shoring final assembly locations to Southeast Asian countries and beyond. NY Times reported that Chinese manufacturers of toys and electronics simply swap metal parts for plastic parts in a "just-in-time" production process in response to changes in tariff policies. Finally, China is moving up the commodity and value chain in unprecedented ways from the Tesla factory in Shanghai to AI R&D centers in Beijing and Shenzhen. With China, Trump is fighting the trade war of 1990, China is laying the foundation for 2025.
15
I'm sorry ... were we supposed to applaud his stopping making things worse? That's a pretty low bar. Three years of wreckage is supposed to be wiped away because he finally had to stop implementing the 18th century economic ideas his "gut" was feeding him ... so that his reelection chances might improve?
We were already here, three years ago ... welcome back to square one.
100
This has got to be a lousy deal because we cannot perform a controlled experiment relative to how the economy would perform under global free trade agreements. In a different world corporations would have greater confidence to invest and grow, not be on edge about the levels or imminence of tariffs and sanctions.
Under this deal Premier Xi would be considered lax by his politburo if China did not continue to steal intellectual property and drive its trucks through gaping holes in the new trade agreement, given Trump’s rock-bottom reputation.
2
It is heartwarming to see the smiles on the faces of Mr. Trump's minions.
Such joy must surge through Vice-President Pence's little heart, witnessing Mr. Trump patching up a tariff crisis,
which he created.
81
Burying the lede as usual I see. The headline should be "US, despite Trump claims of agreement with China, will continue to maintain higher tariffs than any other developed country, as well as China, India, and Turkey."
The key paragraph is not about whether a piece of paper was signed. It was about the status quo after that signature, which is as follows: "But the United States will continue to maintain tariffs covering 65 percent of American imports from China, according to tracking by Chad Bown, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute of International Economics. That leaves the United States with an overall tariff rate higher than that of any other advanced nation, as well as China, India and Turkey."
With this shoddy analytical lens, the paper of record is allowing trump to falsely claim victory or even an end of any sort in a foolish trade war, when in reality, the trade war is ongoing and at a historically high level. Were reporters this credulous when George W Bush declared Mission Accomplished in Iraq? Because it's no different.
18
@Alex The media has given him a free pass regarding everything even the fact that the Trump crime family was convicted of stealing from charities never made top headlines
2
@Alex very well said. Are you listening Trump fans?
2
There is a well documented plethora of evidence that "The Donald" is not the great deal maker HE says he is. Furthermore, I have no faith in his ability to tell the truth and pick the best people for any job, whether it's in negotiating trade, peace, nonproliferation treaties, domestic or foreign policies, taxation, environmental issues, budgets, etc. Can a man of this sort be trusted with waging war without congressional approval? Don't think so.
China, Russia and North Korea are happy to see our president pretend he's a success.
8
Has the penny belatedly dropped that it’s US consumers that pay these tariffs, it’s a tax on them in all but name? Or that the only long-term solution to address the trade deficit is for US companies to become more competitive?
5
Just like his inept and chaotic foreign policy, this president poses for photo ops and believes that “that” is “getting the job done.”
It is not. There are still over 1,500 farmers who went out of business, the products that the working poor (is there even a middle class anymore) rely on are still escalating in price and the world economy has been permanently damaged.
121
My clients will be very happy to hear.
I just went to the USTR website and there is no update over there about what products will be taxed less and what products remain at additional 25% duty.
If you could please post that list when you get it, we will appreciate it.
I am awaiting eagerly to hear details of how this will affect imports on a day to day basis once implemented.
Also, despite all the warnings, the economy here did not die, you did not pay super extra on cheap China products that were already $1, and the world economy did not collapse.
2
@AutumnLeaf The US manufacturing industry and farming industries are both in recessions and the "deal" isn't enforceable and doesn't actually change anything. American consumers and businesses will continue to pay more for Chinese goods. Crops that rotted because China would buy them will still be losses for farmers -- but heck! There's always yields from next fall -- if farmers can hold onto their farms until then. Just because you are blind to the consequences doesn't mean they don't exist. The only party coming out of this a winner is China.
8
@AutumnLeaf we are the ones paying 100% of these tariffs until next November. Some farmers will never recover. Trump started this fiasco and we usual praises himself for ending.
1
It seems the only folks who refuse to acknowledge Trump's trade war with China inflicted economic damage across the globe are his base. They keep chanting their lives have improved since he was elected president.
I know people who argue that fact than support that fantasy.
63
@Marge Keller
The only thing that happened, is that companies that sent manufacturing to China and were raking in billions in profit, raked in 25% less of such.
But for John Q Public, the prices did not rise like Paul Krugman predicted, nor bankrupt every one.
The trade deficit needs to be addressed. That's a fact.
Until then, American manufacturing will remain dead.
2
@AutumnLeaf Face reality: American manufacturing has been dead for a generation and it's not coming back. No one is going to pay fat, out of shape white American men $20, plus pension and health care benefits, to mold plastic toys when they can manufacture the same product for $3 a day in labor costs in China, Malaysia, Vietnam, etc. Businesses like to buy from China and other countries because they don't see any value in overpaying for US labor. American workers aren't "special". They aren't the hardest workers, they don't have any special skills, and they bring nothing to the table. That's not going to change because capitalism is all about "profitability" and American worker aren't profitable.
22
On average, the tariffs cost Americans about $900 bucks a year. Thanks a bunch.
22
He only relevant question for us, I think is, does it strengthen our position internationally and domestically, within the context of China’s intension to become the world’s sole superpower?
4
This means that the stock market goes up 200 points or so today.
Been there, done that about what seems like a million times already.
11
Aren’t you getting tired of winning yet?
1
@Never Trumper The market tripled under Obama
2
This agreement is a comedy and it is not clear where it leads in terms of the trade conflict except that it does put the ball down a little bit. And I say this as some one who firmly supports Trump on this front.
Although, I guess, given that they say they would not cut tariffs, it may be best or most reasonable that can be achieved at this point in time without harming or unsettling too much either economy. The story is nowhere near being finished but so far USA can only be satisfied with how things went overall, no doubt a significant plus for DT for November.
5
@ss Only a plus for his poorly educated supporters that can’t read. Read the agreement there’s no enforcement he created this problem to begin with. Taxpayers were forced to bail out farmers and others billions of dollars due to the mess he created
1
Ok, good start. And a benefit for China as well; i.e. no longer officially designated as a currency manipulator ... Phase One China deal, renegotiation of NAFTA, maybe a renegotiation of the Iran agreement, more defense spending by European NATO countries to hit the 2% of GDP target. Maybe geopolitical momentum moving in a favorable direction.
7
@BD I believe it was Trump that originally designated China as such; but yes, good start. only 5 more to go.
1
The usual "Trump-over-promise-&-under-deliver".
206
@RSH And claims great and wonderful victory!
3
@RSH: It's not just over promise and under deliver, but suppose Trump decides tomorrow [or a few days /hours /minutes] he should reverse his decision, which he has done many times in the past, he will just announce that he changed his mind and that leaves the Chinese with nothing but more anger to deal with. I put nothing past Trump as he is not trustworthy.
3
Phase one is in the books. I have a question. We know there are 4 quarters in football and basketball, 3 periods in hockey, nine innings in baseball, how many phases are there in a trade agreement?
76
There will be as many phases to this trade agreement as Trump needs to keep the positive spin going and distract from his thievery and incompetence.
26
@RNS I believe that's to be negotiated. There are differences between sport and international negotiations. But then you secretly knew that, didn't you?
1