Painful attempt at relevancy. A for effort but D- on execution.
2
I’m doing this puzzle a year later and these comments are so embarrassing. “These are made up words!” - literally all of these are real words. Nia Long is a well known actress. A journeyman is a worker. Just Google this stuff before you complain.
1
So Deb you know to beware of Capitalized clues but not ?; no I did not fill in Lyft.
Oh my. Thursdays are my favorite puzzles. And in this one, there were some wonderful clues: “E, F, and G but not H?” “Ends up with” “Opposite of the point” — this is what I love about crosswords. And yet...
Like many people, I starred at JOURGERMAN for ages, wondering what obscure dialect of German could possibly account for this. Try typing JOURGERMAN into Google. The suggested search results are all about crosswords. No wonder we had 500 comments.
Thank you to my fellow commenters for explaining why JOURNEYMAN is the appropriate response. I can now move on.
However, I can’t move on from NIALONG. I’m sorry. I just - NIALONG? It’s not even a word! I called all of my family on this one, trying to think of a common 7-letter phrase that would go after “sing” and “play.” I was so excited to find out what it would be. When I got to “TAKEAKNEE”, my hopes were dashed. There is no tantalizing 7-letter word. There’s just ALONG, and an extra KNEE. I had to call everyone back, not to share in the excitement of a tip-of-your-tongue phrase, but to apologize for driving them crazy all weekend.
I suppose, on the overall, that this was not a waste of 3 hours, especially given that we’re not allowed to go out for brunch. However, I would appreciate even a SOP from the editors about STOWIT and EBOOK.
So NIALONG.
3
@Judy Lemore
Nia Long is a person (I didn't like it either)
Stow it
E-Book
2
Came back after couple days to see where the comments thread went on this one, find my comment missing. So here we go, glad to bring the total up to 500!
Don't remember all what I posted, but I loved this puzzle. Bravo! Astonished by the negativity in the comments, and wonder if it has something to do with people having visual vs aural focus.
2
Loyal NYT crossword puzzle solvers for years. This puzzle did not merit publication. Phonetics did not work, i.e., nonsensical and random “knee” insertions to misspelled non-phonetic words. What were you thinking? Comments regarding Colin Kaepernick were inappropriate. Political commentary should be kept out of the crossword puzzle unless it is on the OpEd page. Overall weak clues and answers. Not clever or challenging as we have come to expect from the NYT. Just stupid.
8
Now that I know the reason for the knee theme, I refuse to do this puzzle because I will always stand for the National Anthem and the brave people that fought and died for this great nation. Go spend two weeks in China at a non-tourist destination location and believe me, You May, like I was, be ready to kiss the ground at Newark airport when I finally arrived home.
Find another way to protest, you poor down trodden professional football players as you drive home in your luxury cars to your million dollar homes and sign your multi-million dollar contracts laughing all the way to the bank.
I object to using the NYT crossword puzzle as a political forum of any kind especially when I am paying for it. I did not agree to have my money used in this way. I signed up for purely entertainment purposes.
2
@Bernie
The "reason" for the theme is wordplay. It makes no statement about football players.
Isn't there a word some people use for those who are upset by the mere mention of a phrase with which they disagree? What was that word? Oh, yes. "Snowflake."
13
Umm. Take a knee as if someone is injured during a game, and you take a knee to rest. We’ve done that plenty of times in sports.
2
Resent Thursday puzzles make know cents.
11
That was a good workout. Am I the last to get it done?
@Jamestown Ararat
Nope. That would be me. I let the puzzle simmer overnight.😀
2
Nope. it's just past midnight Friday.
1
I get the theme but now we’re just making up words? Jourman? Really?
9
Say the word “journeyman” aloud. Remove the syllable that sounds like “knee” and say what’s left, keeping the pronunciation of the remaining syllables the same as the original. The result is a phonetic equivalent of the answer to the clue.
3
@bratschegirl So now we can just make up sounds with no regard for the fact that the answer as spelled doesn’t match the clue, and the ‘Phonetic’ answer jumbled into a word where knee is spelled in some phonetic variety means that now we’re just placing our trust strictly in the crosses. I guess it’s a clever gimmick, but I would prefer magic to be used somewhere besides my crossWORD puzzle where WORD is the relevant term. Two thumbs down for me even though I finally completed this Word Jumble.
15
@Ann Byrd
JOURNEYMAN is a WORD. Why so CROSS?
4
People like Colin K are what keep us moving forward.
23
I guess what you see depends on where you sit. I was surprised at how many people thought this puzzle was making a political statement. Maybe it was. But I saw TAKE A KNEE as a common, innocuous sports phrase. Even PEEWEE soccer players learn to stop play and TAKE A KNEE when another player is injured.
4
I thought the same thing. People have been taking knees long before CK and it wasn’t in protest. Maybe it involved instances where taking a knee occurs, as in injury, protracted feuds. Should have included a reference to a figure skating incident though.
@Stephen Lee Take out a knee?
I was sure 58A was LETT.
Thanks for the earworm and the misdirect, Mr. Porter!
https://youtu.be/lXYKGL6MgKM
@Roger
'LITHuanians and Letts do it...'
Great connection to a great song by an Uber-great lady.
I feel SO much better after reading these comments. Glad it wasn’t just me. Genealogy just wasn’t fair.
7
Who puts FETA on pizza?
8
@Mae
Greeks. Look up Greek pizza.
2
@Dr W If you insist. :) Not that I have anything against feta.
@Mae
or Greeks........though this puzzle's theme was Greek to me...or gobbledygook
2
Really not a fan of the phonetic component. Stow it and sop were not good either.
7
@Samuel STOW IT and SOP were gimmes for me....
2
My two cents. Would have been really doable if the five clue/answers were starred. I think that would have made all the difference between ‘challenging’ and angering, without lessening the challenge at all.
19
At 10:02 p.m. EST, @doggdoc’s comment makes 88 nays on the dot (counting @Doug’s duplicate comment twice). I feel good about my over 88 bet, less good about reaching 107.
2
@Puzzlemucker
And 88 are the number of KEYS on a PIANO!
(What the H__!)
1
Add me to the tally of those who were irritated. I filled most of it in while reserving judgement on the mandatory twist now required for Thursdays. When I got it, I sighed. Wasn’t even worth a meh.
Then I read the wordplay, I was again disappointed in the editors for again pushing a political point where it doesn’t belong.
8
The creators took too many liberties for today's puzzle. Lame, not clever. GENEALOGY? STOW IT? Come on. First time commenting. Dock today's pay :)
8
@S&L — Yes, they’re definitely getting weirder and maybe not for the better. It’s evolution of the crossword world.
I think at this point we just knee-d to be grateful that they’re not using those tiny emojis yet. 👁’m sure their ⏰ is coming.
Another unfair Thursday puzzle. I really enjoy a well-done difficult puzzle, but this one made no sense.
18
So many comments on what seemed to be to be basically a "meh" puzzle--especially after the brilliant "super-T" puzzle last Thursday. @Nat has hit my main points below but a couple of others:
The study of rocks is PETROLOGY (which fits the space). GEOLOGY is much broader; it's the study of "the solid Earth, the rocks of which it is composed, and the processes by which they change over time" (Wiktionary). The clue as given is a little like saying the study of bees is ZOOLOGY--not wrong, but not right either.
And, @David Connell--I'm pretty sure I got the point of the puzzle--and I really liked JOURNEYMAN--but overall it wasn't up to the Chen/Agard standard.
And INUKTITUT was just a waste of space.
10
So many comments on what seemed to be to be basically a "meh" puzzle--especially after the brilliant "super-T" puzzle last Thursday. @Nat has hit my main points below but a couple of others:
The study of rocks is PETROLOGY (which fits the space). GEOLOGY is much broader; it's the study of "the solid Earth, the rocks of which it is composed, and the processes by which they change over time" (Wiktionary). The clue as given is a little like saying the study of bees is ZOOLOGY--not wrong, but not right either.
And, @David Connell--I'm pretty sure I got the point of the puzzle--and I really liked JOURNEYMAN--but overall it wasn't up to the Chen/Agard standard.
And INUKTITUT was just a waste of space.
@Doug - I don't know how or why to reply to most of your post - but, really, "Inuktitut" is the name of the language. The language is "Inuktitut". Are you saying that the name of a language spoken by real people in the real world is...just a waste of space? Is that really your takeaway today?
Because, I'm curious about that. Especially since it is one of thousands of endangered languages / cultures, thanks to people who dismiss it as "a waste of space."
On what basis is "Inuktitut" a "waste of space"? Inquiring minds wish you could explain that part of your post!
Is "English" a waste of space? or "French"? No? "Washingtonian"? would that be a waste of space?
Well, I'm interested in why "Inuktitut" should be different. It is the name of a culture and language, just as "English" and "French" are. Where are you coming from here? What is going on underneath your despite of this word?
I regret revisiting this day's posts, because it brought me to the sad, sad, world that has your post in it.
9
This puzzle was poorly done. The theme only made sense after completing the puzzle, and was irritating while solving it. In essence you had to ignore the clues and put in noise that sort of fit, but made no sense.
Honeybee? Journeyman? You can’t use the theme to figure those out. It just explains them after you got them some other way.
Very clever, for sure. But a hindrance and an annoyance, not an augmentation.
18
Remy,
I hope that after posting your post you read the post just before yours, to see how some of us made sense of the theme *as* we solved the puzzle.
4
OK, maybe we can catch some of the late haters who don't get it. THE THEME IS PHONETIC! DON"T PRONOUNCE WHAT"S WRITTEN!
Say "journeyman" OUT LOUD. Then say just the first and third syllables OUT LOUD.
Anyone is entitled to dislike the puzzle, but only after they understand it.
11
@Martin You're 100% correct. I got the phonetic thing early on but I still thought the puzzle to be underwhelming.
7
Martin,
It's fine with me if people dislike the puzzle without understanding it; I only object when they call it a bad puzzle without understanding it.
2
@Barry Ancona
.... or listening to it .....
1
This puzzle frustrated the dickens out of me! Once I figured it out, though, I thought it was genius! The "phonetically" part was the hardest to get, but every remaining answer, once you took out the "knee" sound, sounded like what the clue would suggest. Dang! and Kudos to Eric and Jeff!
14
@Evelyn Absolutely. It was a "What the heck is going on?" to "Oh, wow, never would have seen that coming."
@Evelyn
Here's what I didn't see coming.
I thought that first line read 'The puzzle frustrated the chickens out of me!'
Boy, do I ever have egg on my face.
3
@Leapfinger That's a nugget.
I can’t make it stop! Thanks, constructors, for now it’s been stuck in my head since early this morning: “A is for apple, J is for Jacks, Cinnamon-toasty APPLE JACKS! You need a complete breakfast, that’s a fact. Start it off with Apple Jacks. Apple Jacks! Apple Jacks!”
11
So funny. And so true.
1
Just a bad puzzle. Jourman isn’t a language and the made up word doesn’t even sound like the word German. Also Hobee doesn’t sound like hubby (“oh” vs “uh”). And don’t get me started about the massacre of the word geology. Just a badly thought out puzzle. I say fire those guys. They do not deserve this job.
7
Helen,
If you'd like to learn what you missed about the "thinking out" of this puzzle, scroll through the comments.
2
@Helen Clark You don’t pronounce the HO in HONEY as “ho”. It’s pronounced “huh”.
1
Genealogy minus the ne is gealogy. And then nialong? And stow it? Feta as a pizza topping? Feta on a pizza would leave a better after taste then this puzzle does. More importantly taking a knee is a solemn gesture. Making light of it is clueless.
10
Oh please. It’s a crossword puzzle. And the answers are phonetically correct.
It’s just a puzzle.
6
@JW
I'm lukewarm at best on the puzzle, but feta on pizza can be pretty tasty.
2
@moi
Some think tasty. Most think nasty.
Hi folks! It takes something big to get me typing.
What got my attention tonight, as I sit in an airport solving puzzles, was the outright negativity of the comments.
So, here are some thoughts:
1) It's a PUZZLE. They're supposed to be a challenge. If I can solve it, so can you!
2) Get out of your comfort zone.
3) It's Thursday. Whaddya expect?
I loved it. It made my day.
Thanks guys.
25
@Dazed and Confused Correct, it is a puzzle. It is supposed to be a challenge, but should also be fun. And if this was both for you, then that is fantastic! You are just as entitled to feel that way as those of us who did not enjoy it are in sharing our discontent. And funnily enough, we can all be right, since this is all a matter of opinion after all. But just because someone did not enjoy the theme or found it challenging in a not-fun way doesn’t mean they’re not willing to go outside the comfort zone. Clearly they did long enough if they were able to complete the puzzle and still feel underwhelmed by the results, as I was.
14
I’ve been doing the puzzles daily since April and while I am happy to say I’ve learned a bunch, I will also confess that Thursdays still throw me. The only reason my screen name isn’t Newbie is because someone else is already using it.
I appreciate the cleverness of these two very talented men, but this puzzle feels a bit tarnished to me by some inconsistencies. The ones that bother the newbie in me most of all are having the revealer on the down list and having the “knee” be in the beginning, middle and end of the words.
Maybe this puzzle is more like a Picasso and I’m still loving realism? Maybe one day I will appreciate a theme so much that I’ll be more comfortable with sacrificing consistency and standard design rules, but for now it feels like they were so enamored with their idea that they lowered their own standards to push it through to completion. Or maybe I don’t understand Thursdays at all.
I feel bad being negative but wanted to be honest. Erik and Jeff, let me be clear that both of you are total crossword rock stars! Thanks for adding so much to the puzzle world.
15
@TxMary
Dude (gender neutral term). That post was negative? You really are a newbie...
Btw, I started in oct? So I get to keep newbie. Sorry, you are much senior...
4
Thank you TxMary for explaining why you didn’t really like this puzzle, while not insulting the constructors. In fact, you complimented them. I am so saddened by the outright meanness of some of the comments. Someone said they should be fired, for heavens sake. I love doing puzzles and enjoy the column and the comments. But tonight I’m sorry I came back to check it out. Your post made me feel a little better.
5
@Shari Coats
The people who complain the loudest may be the ones who like to finish the fastest.
I don't mind taking my time, and I liked it very much, but it seemed a little unbaked. But the constructors, wow, kudos to them! They are impressive!
2
I did not love the theme, but was willing to suffer in silence until I saw JOURNEYMAN. That's nonsense.
11
I would like Messrs. Agard and Chen to attempt some months hence to do a variation on this crossword using "me" instead of "knee".
Somehow I think that a revealer of "IT'S ALL ABOUT ME" wouldn't stir anywhere near the dissent that this one did.
6
@Craig Actually "it's all about me" pretty much sums it up, can't imagine other constructors would get this through.
Didn’t like this puzzle at all. It irritated me. I get enough politics from the news and Facebook. I don’t care to see it in my crossword puzzles. Crossword puzzles are my happy place.
4
@Lannie kiscoan That’s would make for an extremely limited puzzle.
1
@Lannie kiscoan
Just as they say all politics are local, everything local is political.
Plausible deniability hasn't got a chance.
2
@Leapfinger - Omaha gave us what we got.
We got it everywhere we look, thanks, Omaha.
Thanks a lot!
1
My wife is the one that works the puzzles (I'm Rick, not Mary) but I help out now and then so I have a general idea how things work. This puzzle was ridiculous. Specifically because there were several answers that had to be spelled wrong after removing the "knee" to work. Jourman = German? Gealogy = Geology? Hobee = Hubby? I don't think so.
6
Rick,
If you help out more often, you'll come to find that "funny spelling" in theme answers does happen now and again.
2
The answers are correct phonetically.
3
Zoe,
I think he knows that. But he, and others, are unhappy that they are not spelled correctly.
Despite some intra-forum sparring today, at least no one has called another commenter a KNEE JERK.
12
@Puzzlemucker
I thought about it but abstained. I think both the sides are going overboard a little.
1
Since my original comment got buried beneath a TINY RAID of dissatisfaction, i will repeat myself here:
Erik and Jeff, you had me at KNEE HAO.
7
@Andrew HAO JI LA!
This was a bad puzzle. Too clever by half, too many variables, just not satisfying. Rare, but I guess it happens.
9
I shall say "Ni!" to this puzzle, and demand a shrubbery.
I stared at JOURGERMAN for an age, until the YEW tree clued me in, and finally got the solve, but it raised a question for me; can any French linguists out there (or French historians, for that matter) confirm the pronunciation of Napoleon's Marshall NEY's surname, which appears frequently as fill. I have always read it as sounding like "A" as in neighbor and weigh.
7
While I love to be challenged by the NYT puzzle, I felt today's theme clues and answers were just way too obscure. When I can't figure out a theme or a particularly difficult clue and have to rely on the "Reveal" function, I often respond "D'oh! I should have seen that. It was just too clever for me. I'm glad I was bested. It'll make me think harder the next time."
When I completed today's puzzle, with the help of the "Reveal" function (even after I had figured out what the theme was), all I could say was, "What?! "
10
this one was hard, but I'm proud that I didn't look anything up and finally figured out the trick (although I checked a few things when I initially got the terrible Try Again message that I see so often).... and delighted to see the Knights of Ni. thanks Deb!
9
@Susan
Jus' askin': Cambridge UK or Cambridge MA?
Last Thursday's puzzle had 513 comments, most likely an all-time record. As of this writing, 4:20 pm EST, there are 368 comments today. Who wants to PUT money (i.e. BET) on whether we're going to set a new record today?
1
@Steve L
Well, wouldn’t it just be the bee’s knees if we did...
7
@SteveL
10:20 PM EST and 450 comments so far ....
My rough tally as of 4:15 p.m. EST is 69 "Did not like the puzzle" comments (excluding nits and quibbles from those who did like puzzle or where it was ambiguous), which included multiple comments from some detractors. 60-65 of those comments are specific to the theme but a few, like a one-word "No," are subject to interpretation.
Over 88 is going to be a tough number to make but within reach, 107 unlikely. There may be some hanging chads involved but I'm hoping to have a clean count as of 10:00 p.m.
5
@Puzzlemucker
Make that 172. Was still editing my comment when Cuppa, Jamie, and Alan Hunter posted their comments.
72. back at 9:59 with a semi-final count.
387 comments later I’ll add my kudos. It took me a bit to get the KNEE, but once I saw we were dealing with phonetics too, all was well. I do enjoy (generally) an Erik Agard and Jeff Chen puzzle.
:-)
2
Too clever by half! Maybe time for these compilers to move on to the cryptic multiverse?
3
this was a stupid theme, sorry.
5
Theme: nice idea but execution (and revealer) were a bit messy, as some words were simply add-ons, while others were complete respellings; also, the vowel match between genealogy and geology was a bit iffy. I must admit though that "journeyman" was superb.
Fill: Overstuffed with American TV/Movie/Sports trivia and slang.
Bone-pick: I cannot find any evidence that LANKA was an ancient name for Ceylon (now Sri Lanka). There is an ancient but fictional epic about a city named LANKA. Sri Lanka has had many names through its long history, but if anyone can point me to the use of "LANKA" I'd be grateful.
6
@NICE CUPPA - Your question is not far removed from asking for proof that King Henry was a Henry or Lady Godiva was a Godiva - Sri is merely an honorific title for the island called Lanka (= "island").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Sri_Lanka
4
Which is why Ancient name for Ireland can be ISLAND, right? Because Ireland is an island? Come on now . . .
2
"The first name ever given to the island was Lanka, a word that simply means “island”. This is the name used for the island in the ancient story of the Ramayana, in which King Ravana steals the princess Sita and takes her to Lanka." https://theculturetrip.com/asia/sri-lanka/articles/how-did-sri-lanka-get-its-name/
4
Haven't read all the comments, but it seems I'm in the minority in enjoying this one. Sure, there are some minor complaints (Who says STOW it? And I think I also agree with the KEYS clue quibble), but there was much to enjoy: a non-Yoko ONO, the language crossings in the SE corner, and, of course, a theme that seemed fresh and made me think a little. All in a all, a fun puzzle befitting a Thursday from two of best.
12
@Ryan
I came here expecting acclaim. I enjoyed this one very much. Solved it without any help, though I had to find and make a couple of corrections after not getting the happy music, one a mistake and one just a fill-in typo.
Even grumpy Rex Parker liked today's puzzle, and he rarely likes Thursdays. Often the puzzles he likes, I didn't.
Oh well. To each his own.
The only themer I didn't do a slow smile of recognition to while solving was HONEYBEE. I was trying to figure out "ho-bee." Rex explained it: the idea was not "ho-bee" but "hubby."
5
Clutch,
I'm finding the [coherent] response fairly evenly split between those who hated today's challenge and those who enjoyed it.
It may seem more on the hating since some who enjoyed the puzzle (including me) had some reservations about it; those who did not apparently saw no redeeming features.
Also, since many -- but certainly not all -- who did not *like* the puzzle very clearly did not *understand* it, the constructors and editors are charged with a *bad* puzzle, not simply a *tough* one. Much venom ensues.
7
@Barry Ancona
I agree, Barry; I'm just surprised so many disliked it and had so much trouble with it. We recently had a Thursday puzzle that almost everyone including me (though not Rex!) liked, and my prediction before coming here was that this one would get the same reaction.
My Aha moment that helped me with other themers came with BROWNIE on the crosses, combined with the themer revealer hint.
Yours?
2
Hi Deb,
I am new to the Crossword, but I believe you should have said that today you learned that the oboe "has cork". I think to say an oboe "has a cork" is not correct. Taking my lead from the clue.
Thanks for a great add-on to the puzzle itself. I like to solve and then read your column. I enjoy your take on the puzzles, constructors and life in general.
7
David,
Deb must be offline today. The "cork" - "a cork" matter was raised here hours ago; if she had been reading, she would have fixed it long before you posted.
As well meaning as the theme of this puzzle was, it was such a hamfisted, clumsy, and outright obnoxious application that while politically I am very much in support of Mr. Kaepernick's efforts, I have been forced to donate to the Fraternal Brotherhood of Police, the National Rifle Association, and several Republican SuperPACs. Do not try me again or I will be forced to take matters into my own hands, and Mr. Kaepernick and his friends and allies are innocents in this matter, led to the slaughter by your puzzle construction choices.
Good day to you, Mssrs. Chen and Agard.
14
I was really kneedled by this one.
(Oh, the agoknee...)
10
@Mike
You might could enjoy this John Prine Classic: anotomical puns galore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGCi5LUJRnY
"Give my knees to the needy"
3
@Mike
"(Oh, the agoknee...)"
And "Doom, Despair, and Agoknee on me!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkzE23pyME4
1
@Mike from Munster
I am still wondering whether you are a JOURNEYMAN or an INDIANIAN...
1
Toughie! Way longer than average. JOURNEYMAN was the toughest nut to crack, as I stubbornly refused to take out GERMAN from the last six letters even though I could not conceive of what would possibly fill in the first four, JO__.
8
Sadly, this is the third or fourth time writing in regarding a perennial crossword clue which is perennially wrong. The clue I’m referring to is, “E, F, or G, but not H.” In fact, H is a musical key, obscure though it may be. The BACH motif refers to a succession of notes, B flat, A, C, B natural, where H denotes the B natural. QED, the key of H is a real key signature, with five sharps.
I will grant that this bit of trivia may be too esoteric for lesser crossword publishers, but I expect greater erudition from the New York Times.
7
@Daniel Levinstone
I thumbed this one up. I always appreciate a 1% correction from solvers (as when you see something 99% of other solvers--maybe even 99% of musicians here!--wouldn't know). You are right: NYT aspires to rise to the highest ground, so a nit to pick like yours is fair game.
Just pointing out what you already know: this is like the game show Jeopardy!; you could be your own worst enemy at solving these puzzles if you took crossword puzzle clues this literally and ruled KEYS out as a good answer to this clue.
Would NOTES have been a correct answer to this clue from your perspective? That's what I first wanted to enter until I saw we only had four letters to work with, when the last one was most likely an S.
2
H ("ha") is the name for that pitch class in German, but not in English. The clue and answer are correct, for this English language puzzle, as written.
If the answer had been TONART, you'd have a valid argument.
8
Unfortunately “notes” would also be incorrect, as H is an alternative name for B (natural). I would suggest, “E, F or G, but, not commonly, H.”
this was a pretty friendly Thursday puzzle for me. At first I thought the "knee" followed a particular letter sound or a particular syllable, but once I figured that out the rest was straightforward.
6
I had SHRUBS for SPRIGS for the longest time. Guess my subconscious cottoned on to the theme before I realized it, what with the Knights Who Say NI demanding.....A SHRUBBERY! (One that looks nice, of course. And not too expensive!) Next thing you know I’ll be filling in HERRING for HOOKING on some upcoming fish-related clue....
3
I really loved this puzzle. I loved the idea of the answers acting defiantly toward their clues, and for me, the phonetic approach worked with the image of defiance because the answers were upending the spelling of the expected answers when they took the knee.
Not only does the theme feel fresh and creative, but the revealer works so well and feels politically relevant. It was such a joy to solve and the discovery felt so worth it.
16
@Audrey Bruner I agree with you here. I was totally lost as to what was going on with the extra letters - even the "jour" beginning on "journeyman" did me nothing when I knew it was "German" that something was up. When I finally took a chance with "OKIE" and "ANTE" in SE and then realized what was going on, it was a lightbulb moment!
1
I've been away for a while, and just when I decided to come back and join in I find that there are 324 comments.
I like to take my time with XWPs, but that would require something like the whole afternoon, which I just can't spare.
Anyway, all I was going to say was that I found this one very difficult, and even after I got the gimmick (thanks to the revealer, which itself took a long time) I had a hard time finding the inserted syllables.
Favorite: JOURNEYMAN.
TIL INUKTITUT. Not sure I'll ever be able to work it into conversation and impress people though.
Tomorrow I try to get to the comment really early so I can read what's there and have my say without committing the whole day!
5
Deadline,
Welcome back!
4
@Deadline
Glad you're back.
4
@Deadline Happy to see you again. Please stick around.
2
First, a big 'How nice to see you" to Kiki Rijkstra. REGEX much lately?
Second, I almost forgot my only *real* nit of the puzzle.
Unless I'm msinterpreting, the 33D clue 'furniture often covered in crinkly[sic] paper' refers to a doctor's office. That cot-cum-altar affair is Not an EXAM_TABLE which is a quite different beast from an EXAMining TABLE.
What would you make of a baseball game that left off the final 'ining'?
3
I thought of a table where one takes paper exams and crumples up failed attempts. I see how wrong I am, but that is how the clue made sense to me.
3
@Leapfinger I don't understand your quibble at all. Who takes the time to pronounce "examining" as an adjectival anymore? Everyone says "exam". (Just like everyone now says "lab" instead of "laboratory", except Dr. Frankenstein.) Which different beasts are you comparing?
Why is it acceptable for some of the answers (along, brow) to be actual words, spelled correctly, yet others (jourman, hobee) not to be? I understand that the theme clue says "phonetically," but shouldn't that carry through all five themers?
Even presuming a valid answer to this question, this is probably the worst puzzle in my 81-day streak.
4
A,
I didn't like the inconsistency either, but the two spelled correctly are also phonetically correct.
2
@A
I agree with you completely. The wiggle-room afforded to the constructors by stretching the concept to "do phonetically" is egregious in the extreme -- not up to the customary rigorous NY times standards.
Rollover, Margaret Farrar.
@A - I think you misunderstand. The partial word are not meant to be valid, they just happen to be. What needed to be valid was the entire entry - NIA LONG, BROWNIE, JOURNEYMAN, HONEY BEE, GENEALOGY and for the clue to not match the full valid entry. Then when you remove the letters making up the KNEE sound, the remaining syllables (not letters, because this is phonetic) sounds like what matches the clue.
So there is no real inconsistency on that front. You just happened upon something that looks like an inconsistency that wasn't part of the gimmick.
6
Journey man? This is ridiculous. Very, very poor clue and answer. I expect more from the Times.
3
Thomas,
Journeyman is a word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/journeyman
6
@Barry Ancona It may very well be a word but it was a really big stretch as a fit for that theme. To my ear at least, the first syllables of German and journey are slightly different, but maybe that’s just how I “picture” them in my head.
1
Not my wheelhouse this time. Had STL for 56A, PETROLOGY for 34D, and GERMAN for the last 2/3 of 27A, and got stuck.
Moomph squared.
:-)
2
"The mister, affectionately."
I think my eyese rolled back into my head and I cannnt see anymore. Tlakdbiejnenoxienndj
5
and Elke
I am disappointed at the many negative responza.
How about some perspective-- this is a puzzle -a game to pass the time and engage our grey cell. Compare it to what's live on TV - the trial of a US President !
Tomorrow will be another puzzle.
8
@Robert - sorry, friends, but what is on TV live is the failure to try a US "President"!
3
@David Connell - he is a trying US president, after all.
8
Tripped on *GET instead of NET and *HONEYPIE instead of HONEYBEE. Once I realized an oar was a BLADE, I got JOURNEYMAN on crosses. Went from wanting to cancel my subscription to feeling smug and superior in 4 seconds flat. The crosses seem reasonable, so I guess that makes me another running dog.
5
I knew it would be an entertaining puzzle when I saw Erik Agard's and Jeff Chen's names on it!
My first thought at "E, F, and G, but not H," was notes, which didn't fit, so I was thinking perhaps rebus? I had to fill in several of the crossings before I realized it was KEYS. (Doh!)
That was a different clue for OBOE than I've ever seen before. Clever! I also enjoyed the clues for PIANO and REST. A delightfully musical puzzle today! 🎶
I got a good chuckle out of the clue for ERASER. That one was actually a gimme for me. I am proud to say I did not fall for Lyft or taxi. I saw that question mark, and I knew there were was trickery afoot. I must be on the constructors' wavelength today.
Once I got BROWNIE, I realized there was an extra syllable added each of the themers, and that helped me get HONEYBEE, but I still wasn't clear on the trick. It took a few more crossings to get TAKE A KNEE. I immediately thought of The Knights Who Say "Ni," and I knew Deb would be excited for the opportunity to reference Monty Python.
This one didn't fall easily for me, but it was worth the effort. Very enjoyable and challenging puzzle! Thanks, Erik and Jeff!
12
I liked it. Got hung up on Journeyman but appreciate the occasional extra-challenging puzzle.
9
PS, I pronounce Ger and man in German the same way I pronounce Jour and man in Journeyman. May be a regional thing.
7
@Layla
So would a lot of us. That would make it a pretty big region!
4
Even seeing the solution can’t fix journeyman.
Streaks are made to be broken I guess. But I hate to go out on one so frustrating.
3
Journeyman was a disaster. Made no sense at all even after I read the explanation. Impossible to get.
4
@Ben Barton
The theme: "Take a knee"
Journeyman - "knee" = German
(Jour___man ----> German)
@Ben Barton
Please see Adina's comment (about 5 posts below this one). I think she? illustrates the "trick" very well.
@Ben Barton - not impossible. I got it and I’m a relative newbie still routinely struggling with post-Wednesday puzzles. It had to be german, but that didn’t fit. The revealer made it pretty clear to there was an extra sound in there; hence Journeyman.
Well, this certainly stirred up strong feelings! It would be wonderful if we could all express ourselves without insulting others who had a different response to a given puzzle. I found this one really tough and had to read the column and the comments (some of which were so angry they made me cringe) before I fully understood a devilishly tricky theme. It was very satisfying to finally see how it worked and I learned a few new words, including Inuktitut. But my sense of accomplishment at finishing a tough puzzle and understanding its intricate theme does not make me an “apologist for the editors”.
16
@Shari Coats Agreed. This took me over an hour to finish, and I almost gave up. I was reluctant to give up GERMAN for the last 6 letters for 27A. The "aha" was worth it though.
1
I play the OBOE, and I never get it from the clues. Cork...bell...??? I guess I need a clue like, "The instrument you play, you dummy!"
11
@Jeanne
LOL! I think we all have can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees, Capt. Obvious moments like that!
1
@Jeanne LOL I write poetry, and I never get the poetry clues!
Perhaps 63A could have been clued as “Univ. with a campus in Hobart” - to give us a 6th theme answer! (And to avoid the non-theme ‘knee’)?
@RampiAK
I believe that Johnny Unitas pronounced his name as in "united", so the phonetics are a little off.
1
This puzzle was trying too hard. Have to give it poor marks. Hopefully next Thursday's will be better.
2
Okay, I'm home sick with a *rough* *cough* and apparently some people don't remember *enough* from when they went *through* elementary school about how weird English spelling can be. So I took the time to look up some words phonetically (from Merriam-Webster, so blame them, not me, if that's not how you pronounce a word).
knee -- nē
journeyman -- ˈjər-nē-mən
German - jər-mən
Nia Long -- nē-ə 'lȯŋ (Nia is not from MW, but from some name-your-baby site)
along -- ə-ˈlȯŋ
brownie -- ˈbrau̇-nē
brow -- ˈbrau̇
genealogy -- ˌjē-nē-ˈä-lə-jē (also -ˈa-lə- also ˌje-nē-)
geology -- jē-ˈä-lə-jē
honeybee -- ˈhə-nē-ˌbē
hubby -- ˈhə-bē
So if you take nē out of one word, you definitely get the other, *by pronunciation*. I will admit to half a quibble about genealogy, since it has two alternate pronunciations, but the rest are perfect.
Merriam-Webster has the phonetic alphabet I learned in elementary school, so I used it. I cannot wrap my head--or my tongue--around the phonetic notation used in linguistics.
This was done while I waited out the "Must sit up for ten minutes after taking medication, but do not eat for thirty minutes. And no dairy or antacids for two hours." Now for my (non-dairy) breakfast.
22
@Adina - I love your post for its straightforwardness. Sorry you feel that way about the International Phonetic Alphabet - "the phonetic notation used in linguistics" - since the whole point of IPA is to avoid the ambiguity that comes with "blank" as in "word"
(think: "g" as in "garage")
(since that definition presupposes a way to say "word"). Still - you've got it. I hope one or two of the negatives today might listen to you!
2
@David Connell ,
I have nothing against IPA, I just have never learned it and thus it confuses me. I have trouble hearing the difference between consonants in English sometimes, so throwing in sounds not used in English just makes it worse--think explaining "peach" vs. "salmon" to someone partially red-green colorblind.
@Adina
This post should be pegged to the top of the comment section. Great visualization?
It would help every person who cannot make sense of this puzzle (which included me). I think also saying, if you omit the "knee" syllable (versus word), people would "get" what the constructors were trying to do.
I also think when folks see Agard and Chen as the constructors, they are expecting something amazing but at it's core very simple. The "key" to unlock/understand this puzzle was not obvious, imo.
I’m just commenting to help jack up the count.
I don’t think this was as good as these guys can do. It’s a worthy cause but left me underwhelmed though it did take awhile to finish. But Thursday is just a place marker on the way to Friday and Saturday. Last Thursday I liked, though.
4
Lame and labored is not creative or clever no matter how many apologists for the editors chime in to say so
17
@Kurt Mudgeon,
Lame and labored describes a subset of the population that would probably prefer some help and solicitude instead of more opprobrium.
6
@Kurt Mudgeon
I like your name.
4
@Leapfinger as someone who certainly qualifies as “lame” by the original definition, I absolutely object to the word being used to mean “boring” or “stupid” or any other negative descriptor. Most people I know who fit the original definition also object to that usage. It isn’t hard to find other words that are just as accurate.
1
I guess I don't understand how "take" a nee sound equals take out / remove / omit / disregard. Just the word "take" is confusing to me.
Calli,
It doesn't mean take out. The five theme answers take [add] a knee (sound) that isn't called for by the clue to be entered in the grid .. but then you leave the knee sound out to pronounce (but not necessarily spell) what *is* called for by the clue.
2
Now that's what I call a Thursday puzzle! Best one in recent memory for me. Actually it's no surprise when two brilliant minds get together.
Thank you, Erik &J eff!
15
I can only speak for my own feelings and solving experience (of course).
While I liked the puzzle well enough, and I got the theme and was ok with it, it wasn't such a great solving experience for me. My feeling is similar to others who said it was too clever - specifically, I thought it tried too hard to be clever. I like clever puzzles with clever themes or gimmicks. Not all cleverness(es?) are created equal. I think gimmicks involving phonetic pronunciations probably tend to create such mixed feelings.
We often admire constructors' ability to create puzzles that are a marvel to behold after the solve, but I always give more points to a puzzle that gave more priority to the solving experience. I felt this one was a bit lacking in this area on the theme entries.
I don't generally like posting negative comments about puzzles - I still like the puzzle well enough. But I think sometimes it may help the editors get some feedback on the different solving experiences.
31
Wow. I went 30 minutes OVER my average on this one. But I didn’t “cheat” (according to my rules — no looking things up on google or checking Deb’s blog). I still don’t really get the theme — I mean I DO, but it doesn’t really make sense to me. I hardly ever say this, but... meh.
8
The theme seemed kind of all over the place, no? But that's a quibble compared to the real sin of this puzzle. Feta, on pizza? This is the New York Times, not the LA Times, right? I'm sure it tastes just fine, but in the words of Walter Sobchak, "This is not Nam ... There are rules."
17
@Tim
Good call. I have been making home-made pizza since, hmm, 1973. Never once even THOUGHT of putting FETA on one. (I feel the same way about pineapple, for what it's worth.)
5
@Tim
It doesn't taste fine, although that's just my opinion. I have sat across the table on several occasions from my otherwise sane colleague as she munches on Greek pizza, replete with Feta. Tasted it once, that was enough. Oh, she just happens to be a Jourman geologist.
6
@racul - it's funny hearing about pizza from Chicago peeps, where they drink tomato soup and call it pizza!
2
With all the grousing about the theme (which I thought was pretty meh), I'm surprised that I'm the first person here to mention the use of another derogatory slur in a NYT crossword puzzle. OKIE absolutely ruined this puzzle for me. If you don't get why, please read this article from the Oklahoma Historical Society:
https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=OK007
1
Dillon,
I gather you're not from Muskogee...
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=okie+from+muskogee+merle+haggard+youtube#id=1&vid=58b8ffa4eee11bf1abd296d9ab41d287&action=click
3
@Barry Ancona the trouble with satire is that not everyone gets it.
@Dillon
I wanted SOONER in there...OKIE was almost the last thing into the grid. It was not complimentary, that's for sure...
2
I listen to "Says You" on my local NPR station (what? you don't????) and this kind of groaner is a frequent appearance on the quiz show. I loved this puzzle.
6
Journeyman? Take the knee out? Jourman= German? Oy Gevalt!
13
@Jonathan Leal - or you could speak English and have ears. Oy, shanda.
(if you can take "k-n-e-e" out of journeyman and leave jourman, well, bless your heart.)
If you take the knee out, you should get a tight-anium replacement maybe.
[I'm pretty sure it's 'Oy, a shanda']
2
I saw the constructors' names at the top and said uh-oh. But was able to solve, and loved the theme. Underlying sentiment too. Thanks!
Astonished by the strong negative slant to the comments. Even some folks who registered the hint "phonetically" in the revealer clue seem to want to construe it differently than how it is. Wonder if it says something about crossword solvers being visual rather than aural people.
8
All during solving I kept thinking about reading the comments, expecting lots of folks would hate this puzzle. And gee, did they ever.
I thought this puzzle was tough but fun. Any other day of the week it wouldn't fly, but it's a great Thursday.
9
Though I finally solved this and fully understood the theme, this was one of the most confusing puzzles I have ever done. In some cases when “knee” was removed, you got a correct spelling: BROWnie for example. In other cases, you got something that sounds like a word: GEneALOGY. I’m not sure why the across clue could not have been ETO for European Theater of Operations. JOURneyMAN was probably the strangest (to me). Though there were some fun clues, the “cleverness” of this puzzle was lost on me.
8
@Robert Kern
The complete entry was always a correctly spelled word or name etc. The answer to the clue (the entry with the KNEE sound omitted) was always phonetically accurate. This was consistent. The fact that the answer to the clue was sometimes spelled accurately and sometimes not, is immaterial.
What a disappointment for a Thursday puzzle, especially after last week's gem. The "trick," if you could it that, elicited a "so what" reaction in my head. Meh, as some would say.
14
Ugh. No thanks, fellas. While I respect the intent of the theme, the clues and resulting answers were plain irritating.
9
HO(NEY)BEE --> HOBEE
Oh, is that supposed to sound like hubbie?
1
Lew,
No, it is not.
(Scroll down for plenty of explanation.)
2
@Lew
/ˈhʌniˈbiː/ minus /ni/ equals /ˈhʌbiː/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetics
4
I agree with the commenter who said it’s too clever by half. I guess hooked on phonics just doesn’t work for me...
7
"(GENEALOGY minus the NE phonetically equals GEOLOGY)."
Still looks and sounds like GEALOGY to me. But "I'm Canandian and they think I'm slow, eh?" But a good Thursday challenge. Wish I could have done it in 1:43 like Ethel Mae. That's fast for those hesitations and a look-up. Sure the last name isn't Mertz?
5
@Canajun guy,
Don't start. I just discovered a year or two ago that Amurricans pronounce IDYLL as 'idle' instead of 'iddle', which you must agree sounds a bit silly, even for a King.
Now I have to wonder whether the border separates ways of saying GENEALOGY, or whether some words just tend to get sloppicized.
@Canajun guy
As a fellow Canajun, I'm sure you recognized that Ethel Mae's self-effacing post could only have meant 1 hour and 43 minutes. And I'm not quite sure how Ethel Mertz figures into rapid crossword solving.
2
Good grief, groused Tom gaseously.
Sometimes puzzle tricks are too clever by half.
On to Friday.
Thanks lads
7
dk,
But which half?
2
Dless to say, this puzzle took a lot of bbling at. Had some confusion at JOURNEYMAN -- JOURMAN -- JOURMAN(NEY). It looked asif ometimes you lose one, sometimes you gain one. And then I say Jeanie-Al-oh, gee instead of Jeanie-Awl-oh,gee. But oh, gee, that's a small t.
This might be the perfect time to put another cull in the collodion with just a little old music. (Warning: this is Not Leopold STOWkowski on the PIANO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI8FI5mc18o
As Deb pointed out, it was a great night to say "Ni!".
No ts, Messers Agard & Chen, I salute you on bended z for another FETA compli
5
@Leapfinger - clearly you didn't click on my last link...elementary, my dear Leapy!
@David C
[eep] I had a conference call breathing down my neck, so commented w/o the necessary pre-check. 'Pologies!!!
@Leapfinger - with a sliver of golden brass, I will say, nickels to Newcastle. No pologia needed or spected.
Au, it's all oxygen and potassium.
1
I like almost every puzzle -- and I liked this one. I don't think I've ever posted here that I disliked aNY puzzle by aNY constructor for aNY reason. I might quibble about a clue here and there, but I recognize that clues NEEd not be dictionary definitions and make a puzzle more challenging if they're clever or obscure.
I've been solving these puzzles for decades and I appreciate that there are constructors out there who try to come up with new and interesting themes rather than rehashing the old ones.
There may be puzzles that include more stuff I don't care for, like sports and pop culture -- but that's on me, not on the constructors. I know there are solvers out there who don't like science very much, one of my favorite topics. But I still like those puzzles that are heavy on topics I don't really care for; I see them as learning opportunities.
So, thank you to Erik and Jeff and the puzzle editors, for this and for every puzzle you produce for us. Frankly, if I were a constructor I don't think I could bear to read these comments.
41
Brother Clam, I get the feeling the constructors (and the editor) may be tempted to sigh "OK Boomer," at some of the comments.
5
@Puzzledog I'm firmly in the boomer cohort; I hope they don't sigh that in my general direction!
(I'm sure my students do...)
4
Chief,
You have presented it on the half shell.
4
First, I liked this, and I liked (and honor) the reference to the right of peaceful protest.
I sailed through the puzzle without quite understanding what was going on because the cluing, for me, was very fair--I could always resolve the theme answers from the vertical crosses. When I got the reveal, I went back and chuckled my way through the already completed theme answers.
Thanks Jeff and Erik.
7
@Puzzledog
I had almost the same experience, and I may have missed the theme altogether had I not filled a couple of squares incorrectly while solving very late last night. I had misspelled Johnny UNITiS and had HONEYgEE. In the back of my mind, I mildly wondered who on earth had coined the latter expression, but my sleepy mind allowed that the gEE stood for “gent.”
As it happened, though, I was solving on my own HONEYgEE’s phone and he was tearing it out of my hand just then so that he could set his alarm for the morning. When the puzzle flashed “Keep trying!” I decided to finish in the morning, rather than scour the grid through closing eyelids. In the morning, the first pass through with fresh eyes showed that I’d filled in too many answers that didn’t quite add up as straight-up solutions fo the clues, and subsequently got to savor the theme.
I will miss the idea of a HONEYgEE as a term of endearment a bit...
3
Almost 200 comments and not one of the (admittedly outnumbered) fans of this excellent puzzle has exclaimed, “KNEE-TOE!” yet?
11
@Sam Lyons
KNEE-TOTE ALEE!
2
I liked the idea of the theme. One that relies on phonetics can be challenging because of people’s differences in word pronunciation. (Ni)along, Brow(nie) and Ho(ney)bee all worked with my pronunciation. Jour(ney)man almost did, but not quite. Ge(ne)alogy didn’t work as I actually use the -al- sound, so it doesn’t transform to -ology for me as it does for Jeff. But, again, I liked the idea of Taking a knee. That was great.
5
Not a fan. I get clever. This is not.
6
Put me in the Grumpy category, if you must. I get it that there are places where a /nee/ sounding set of letters (phoneme) is inserted, but it's a stretch to get 'HUBBY' from HO-BEE. NIA LONG? Who? And I take it that 37D is the 5th themer even though it's the Reveal.
This may have gotten a pass because of the stellar record of the constructors (and ACPT championship title for Erik,) but I think it was just not worth my time. Lame. May as well have been written in INUKTITUT. [Scowl] Plus it is raining again.
5
@Mean Old Lady
There are 5 themers plus the revealer.
1
@Mean Old Lady - not that it's worth it, but here goes:
you don't get "hubby" from "ho-bee", you get "hubby" by "taking" the "knee" sound away from "honeybee".
Etc. through the rest of the five.
2
@Andrew
I'll have to work on my counting; I would do a Face-Plant, but I'm still sore from that little Boxing Day trip to the ER...
A suggested Pledge for Crossword Constructors:
"I swear on the ping PONG TABLE of Will Shortz that when I have come up with a really tricky theme -- a theme where the answer to "word following sing or play" turns out to be NIALONG (of all completely unexpected things) -- I will not add to the solver's misery by futzing it up with a non-theme answer like INUKTITUT."
Here, too, is why I didn't get the revealer:
I had OtoE instead of OKIE for the neighbor of the Arkansawyer.
I didn't remember "OTIS Day and the Knights" from "Animal House". Why on earth would I?
So now you tell me what ?AKEATNEE is! Deal?
This came very close to Greatness, but it failed because of unnecessary obscurity. If your revealer is terrific, make sure that everyone can eventually come up with the darn thing!
8
@Nancy Completely agree about INUKTITUT, but saw Otis Day and the Knights perform a couple of times on my college campus in the 80s, so that one was easy for me!
Kate,
I'm glad you survived the kiln explosion.
3
@Barry Ancona hahaha! I needed that!
This is my first week as a subscriber. Before now I dabbled at the Sunday which is in the Atlanta paper a week later. It took me 1:43 to finish but I know that seems slow. I think I'm clever than I come here and feel like a dope. My biggest mistake was I had Makes Sense for Takeaknee. I had STL for ATL. MAKES SENSE made sense with the clue. The only word I looked up was arkansawyer, but once I got Okie the whole thing came to me. I still need to learn words like Ewok. That middle section took the most time.
11
@Ethel Mae Potter
Hi, Ethel Mae, and Welcome! Congratulations on solving a complete bear of a puzzle. Quite an accomplishment and the makes you the opposite of a dope.
Expect challenges like this on Thursdays. When I was a new solver, I rarely completed a puzzle without checking the answers somewhere, and worse, when I did complete it, I often was stymied by the correct answer. (@ Chris Finlay, I feel your pain.)
It's a big part of why I started reading the Wordplay column, which adds so much to my solving experience and has the bonus of this awesome community of commenters.
So, again, welcome and well done!
12
@Chungclan thanks for the encouraging reply. I knew Thursdays there was a trick, especially when you are certain that your crosses are correct and you get Nialong. I was able to realize this and the German clue were tricks. I love the feeling when you strain your brain on a clue and it's a simple word like Sets. I was mad at myself for not seeing (in archived puzzles I worked on) NOTV and MRED that I saw the first as not V and not no tv. The second not as Mr. Ed! It really makes you feel silly but need to keep an open mind about when something doesn't seem right!
8
@Ethel Mae Potter
You are my hero today. I have printed out your comments and Chungclan's thoughtful response and sent them out for framing. You have single-handedly restored my faith in humanity. Thank you! Not that it's wrong to dislike this or any puzzle, but would that there were more new (and not so new) solvers who kept in mind your adage: "It really makes you feel silly but [you] need to keep an open mind when something doesn't seem right!"
7
Wow, lots of grumpy comments today! I thought the puzzle was clever and fun. The left-right symmetry was a bonus: It took a while to realize the 5th "ni" (fun video clip!) answer was vertical and opposite the revealer. Solving took longer than usual for me, but who cares? Lighten up, people!
10
Funny (see what I did there?)
10
@rob
Groooooaaaaan!
😀
1
I figured it out eventually, but this was a sloppy construction: nie, ni, nea, and ney refencing "knee"?... taking nea out of "genealogy" to get gelegy?... "hobee" for hubby and "jourman" for german? It was all a big mess, in my view, unless I am missing something. Sorry for the "ne"gativity.
6
Mike,
You are missing something. If you'd like to find it, read the comments.
5
The study of rocks is geology. Genealogy is the study of families and their history throughout the generations that preceded them.
Billie,
Take the "knee" out of genealogy and say it...
2
"And JOURNEYMAN to GERMAN? Who could possibly think of that?" Not me, that's for sure. :P
1
Puzzle aside, the Thursday commentaries are by far the richest in peeves and penchants. Today's offerings range from those who would like to see the constructors take a knee (Ni!) to be knighted to those who would prefer to see them take a knee to the groin. I side with the former but as Spinal Tap noted, "It's such a fine line between stupid, and..."
12
@Guy Quay
We’ll see if the perceived tyranNY of this Thursday will take a knee to the number of comments TiraNE generated recently.
On a serious note, I get a bit sad every time there’s a flood of moaning and groaning because the constructor(s) had got creative. Isn’t a challenge the point?
14
Sam,
It has been noted here countless times: some people don't want to be puzzled by a puzzle.
7
@Barry
And that never ceases to puzzle me.
4
Normally, when I'm flummoxed by a theme and we get to the reveal, I have a moment of "oh that's actually clever, they got me".
This time... no, not so much.
For a start, they're not "taking" anythingh. They're ADDING.
Second, while phonetically similar, they're not adding a knee. They add a ni, a ney, a nea, or a nie.
And last but by no means least, my major gripe with this puzzle is that two of the clues aren't just a word with an extra syllable jammed in to make a different word. Their spelling is completely changed and so without the additional syllable, don't make any sense at all.
JOURNEYMAN - NEY = JOURMAN, not GERMAN. This answer is now wrong.
HONEYBEE - NEY = HOBEE. This answer is now wrong.
I'm all for wordplay, I'm all for clever clues and trickery. But when you have something like this in which the result once you start extracting the additions is literal garbage text fill, not even a natick, then to me this is a terrible puzzle. Add to that the theme hint is just flat-out incorrect...
7
Chris,
1. Take the knee from the answer.
2. Knee phonetically.
3. Say the full answer as written, minus the knee sound (don't say the "new" word).
2
CrimiKNEE, that was geKNEEus and just plain fun! Or should I say “funny,” to keep with the theme.
I love Thursdays and Jeff Chen and Erik Agard all in equal measures, and the three combined make me happier than a shrubbery. Speaking of which, thanks for the clip, Deb. It took me down the memory lane to college, when almost every inaNIty my friends and I uttered would include a Monty Python quote.
13
A fun FOE-NET-TICK puzzle.
The key to fully grokking the puzzle is to think of sounds, not spelling. JOURNEYMAN without the KNEE sound is pronounced the same as GERMAN, etc.
I liked the puzzle once I figured out the trick, and solved it a little under my average Thursday time. YMMV.
8
Seriously this was a terrible crossword. A main problem is that NIALONG, the first instance of the trick, is an obscure reference to a second-tier celebrity and so just looks to most people like nonsense. In the same vein JOURNEYMAN for “GER(KNEE)MAN” is very very hard to decipher until you get the key. Even then because there is no logic to which clues have KNEE in them (did the constructors give up in APPLEJACKS and CROWDNOISE?) there’s no reason to think to look there. And the block containing the key has an obscure langage as an answer. Plus lots of lazy and meaningless “slang” (“on the REG?” Who has said that, ever?). All in all this one might have appeared clever to the constructors but it was more frustrating than pleasing to the solvers.
35
@Nat Totally agree on every one of your points (except that once I got the key, I though that GERKNEEMAN was pretty funny). Your comment saves me from writing one of my own.
1
As someone completely baffled by the theme, those five clues don't "take a knee" - they add it, with no indication as to which ones, how, or why. A little signposting would've been nice (yeah I know it's a Thursday, but still). I kept changing "NIALONG" because it made no sense. I also had "LITHOLOGY" which is more correct than "GE(NE)OLOGY" for the clie
2
@Andrew
I actually toyed with the thought that the clue had an inverted IN' ---thus singIN' ALONG, playIN' ALONG, but finally just gave up trying to comprehend it since the Downs were correct.
That's how desperate one gets when a puzzle's gimmick really doesn't work.
2
Andrew,
As per the revealer clue, the answers -- not the clues -- take a knee.
2
I hate to be positive, but I loved it!
Nice that they got NINER in there. Too bad they couldn't work in nenene, regardless of pronunciation.
10
So it seems a lot of complaints are about the theme. I liked the theme and I understood each theme entry.
My complaint is with the design and the clues. Between the whole top and the whole bottom half, there are only two links. All the other sections are boxy so it's hard to get a firm toehold.
My downfall was INUKTITUT, which I 99% guarantee you've never heard of. Entries like BALT REG SOP ITO don't help. Dire does not mean worst.
So, creative and fun theme, but a slightly onerous solve.
3
@JohnS
HONEYBEE watches the TV series Life Above Zero, which is set in Alaska. The show has an indigenous Inuit family and they do speak INUKTITUT occasionally. This was one of the few answers I had in my first pass thru the puzzle. Let’s hear it for silly TV shows!
7
Just a side note: I previously mentioned that Rex Parker liked this puzzle. I'll add now that time has passed that the vast majority of his commenters agreed. I don't know exactly what that means, but you can venture guesses.
1
As Inigo Montoya said to the Man in Black, I now say to Erik and Jeff: "I admit it. You are better than me." And I was not solving left-handed...
7
Nice one! that took quite a bit of fiddling to finish, first because I just plain had trouble in the SW not having heard the word Balt or of the Olga brand, and only then with genealogy did the gimmick make sense, and had to fix Inuktitut and last of all journeyman. Quite the puzzle! Is the diagram meant to be a funny smile, the constructor grinning at the solver? (I think so.) Ha!
4
On first, second, and third pass I made very little progress. But fourth time through enough started to click that I knew I was gonna make it. And then I got the theme and it fell quickly after that.
Proud to say that I finished what I thought was a fun but extremely challenging puzzle without a single look up! Time wasn't great, but not too much more than average.
Hope everyone else enjoyed this one as much as I did.
8
Yuck. Not a fan. Some of those theme words just don’t work for me and it took me forever (with assistance) to finish. On the upside, the Knights who say Ni clip is awesome! Thanks Deb!
3
I managed to do 3/4 of the puzzle before I went to bed. I couldn’t figure out any of the other clues. Then I got up this morning and it took me just a few minutes to fill in the rest. Amazing what a good night’s rest can do! The “take a knee” thing still doesn’t make sense to me. And I still don’t get “journeyman” in spite of other players’ attempts to explain it. I thought the puzzle was okay. I am just thankful it wasn’t a rebus.
1
@Jaime
Pronounce "jour-ney-man". (Space out the syllables.)
Then pronounce just the first and third syllables. Pronounce them the same way you did before; just don't say "knee" in the middle. (Disregard the spelling "jourman.")
Doesn't that come out GERMAN?
3
@Steve. You’re correct! The lightbulb went on! Thanks!
My solving experience:
1. First pass through the clues. I manage to fill in the mid-south but not much else. I'm never going to finish this. Oh - and is HONEYBEE really a nickname for a husband? Never heard that one before.
2. Deep breath. Take a break. Get a little more here and there, but BROWNIE for furrowed brow? Must be some new slang I haven't heard.
3. Then eventually - NIALONG. Ok, so something weird is going on here.
4. End up in the SE corner. Have TAKE... something. Look back at the questionable answers and - oh, ok - AKNEE! I got it. Fill in INUKTITUT from likely guesses on the crosses and fill in the last letter and... to my surprise my solve is successful.
5. Wonder what the general reaction is going to be among commenters. Sort of suspect the worst. Start counting recos and it becomes quickly obvious.
I did think the reveal fell a bit short in that some of the five answers do a bit more than just 'take a knee,' but I can't see any reasonable way to expand on that. The fact that I solved it is probably influencing my judgment but I still thought it was a good puzzle and a quite enjoyable workout.
5
@Rich in Atlanta Oh, and one other thing - the photo at the top of today's column.
Maybe I'm just an old geezer but do we really have to have a photo of someone taking a photo? I think the geyser by itself would have been fine. But at least it wasn't a photo of someone taking a selfie.
2
@Rich in Atlanta
I knew something could be up before I started the puzzle. I looked at the calendar.
But I really knew something was up with BROWNIE. I didn't know exactly what, but I just said to myself, just go ahead and fill in whatever fits, and we'll see why it fits later.
And that's what I did. It took me a lot longer than most Thursdays, but I got it done.
1
Rich,
I'm not surprised you solved this one. The next time you report any cognitive issues, I will remind you that you solved this one ... if I can remember to do so.
2
I came out meh on this one.
On the one hand, I enjoyed the TAKE A KNEE references. As an overall theme, I didn't like it as much, even though I glommed on fairly quickly. It felt forced more than funny. A few too many answers felt a wee bit obscure and/or awkward.
However, I didn't find it particularly hard for a Thursday. It came in five minutes under my average (admittedly somewhat bloated by last Thursday's puzzle which I insisted on making into a rebus for far too long having failed to see the giant T's in the grid itself). At least, grid blindness didn't get me this week!
1
DIRELY and SOP are not awesome.
I liked the “IT’S GREEK TO ME” reference and the theme is exceedingly clever.
I had STOP before STOW and spent this morning checking and re-checking INUKTITUT and OTIS before recognizing YEPS are not FLORA.
Thankfully, mercifully, it ended.
You have to expect when Erik Agard and Jeff Chen team up it’s not going to be a walk-through.
Kudos.
3
Jim Croce’s “Don’t Mess Around with Jim” because any attempt to try to convince the dislikers (and their armies of recommenders) that this puzzle was better than they thought is spitting into the wind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQrTGE4wwwA
6
@Puzzlemucker
And earlier, I got an earful (if that can be said of print) from someone who said s/he did understand the trick and still didn't like it. Called me smug for understanding it and liking it.
I'm not fully convinced that person really got it. A lot of people seem to think that you're supposed to pronounce what's left (jourman) after taking out the "knee" and it's supposed to sound like the real answer (German). So they think it's a bad puzzle.
It's like someone trying to hit Phil Niekro's knuckleball and saying, "That was a bad pitch. It wasn't supposed to do that."
3
@Steve L
That was my “problem” when it came to GENEALOGY, which I got before JOURNEYMAN. When I removed the NE, I did not have a word that sounded like GEOLOGY. I still did not fully comprehend the theme until I got to JOURNEYMAN. OK, I then thought to myself, it’s the word pronounced as it is but with the knee sound taken out, not the word pronounced as it would be had there never been a knee sound to begin with. Heck, that’s simple enough. People are going to looooove this one!
(I’d say “over 88” is a pretty safe bet. Final tally for the whole tamale: 107)
2
Caveat on the 107 prediction: dislike to hate comments, not commenters.
No, just no. The 27A clue and answer is nonsense. I like a clever and obtuse clue as much as anyone, but that one is a bridge too far. JOURMAN might sort of sound like german but it isn't the word or even close to it. And HOBEE for, I presume hubby? Three of the theme clues and answers work and make sense. A clever theme, that was pushed too far and was not fun!
5
@Robert Danley
You're not supposed to read "jourman" or "hobee"; you're supposed to read JOURNEYMAN or HONEYBEE and leave out the "nigh" sound.
3
Sorry, I meant the "knee" sound. Someone else said "nigh" on this board, and I repeated it without processing it.
1
...leave out the "nigh" sound.
Leave out the "knee" sound.
Sorry Jeff. You should have DUCKED that language “oddity” rather than being STRUCK by it. And - sorry - I suspect that it didn’t just come at you out of the blue. Rather, it seems like the result of a case of thematic constipation - - if you get my drift.
NIA LONG isn’t a WORD - it’s a proper first and last name (which I thought were prohibited) and the rest of the theme answers were just too much of a stretch.
Still - much of the puzzle was enjoyable. I even had a good time sussing out INUKTITUT - and “Opposite of the point?” was amusing - as was EXAM TABLE (coupled with its clue).
1
@PeterW
You've been doing puzzles long enough to have seen many proper names in them. Why would you think they're prohibited?
4
@Steve L
I believe this is the first time I've seen a FIRST and LAST name together.
I have no objection to "Comedian Jimmy" and DURANTE. We see that kind of thing all the time.
I agree with what another commenter suspected - that, from another constructor pair, this puzzle would never have gotten past Mr. Shortz.
"I believe this is the first time I've seen a FIRST and LAST name together."
PeterW,
Did you do the Tuesday puzzle?
4
Guess I’m officially becoming a bit of a Wordplay old-timer, as I actually had a successful and enjoyable solving experience this morning! Yes, I’ll cede a few groans for the phonetic license (especially JOURNEYMAN!), but I filled in TAKE A KNEE early on and chewed on it from time to time until I finally got the aha! (I did look up the football player, and that helped resolve all, since I had SORELY instead of DIRELY holding me up.)
8
@Kate
When you pronounce JOURNEYMAN without the "knee" part, it doesn't sound like German? Or did you try to do like some others and pronounce "jourman"?
2
I don't see the need for poetic license, since the last vowel in journeyman is a schwa just as with German.
1
Nice to see Lithuanian clue for BALT next to Johnny UNITAS, a renowned (back in the day, anyway) Lithuanian-American!
Labas rytas, everyone!
10
@Joe
I believe he played for the BALTimore Colts as well.
4
@Andrew
He sure did!
3
Enjoyed it until I ran into the theme entries which were more difficult than clever. I don't think it works. Disappointing from Chen and Agard.
3
No.
4
No gold star for me today. I solved fairly quickly but got impatient and had to check to see what I did wrong. Did not like this “knee” bit. NIALONG? What’s that? Or, who’s that, I guess. It doesn’t go with HONEYBEE or JOURNEYMAN, and since when did German start with a J? Also, the worst way should be DIREST, not DIRELY. Nope. This was not a clever Thursday, or tricky Thursday. It was knee-dless.
"In the worst way" is an idiomatic phrase, so it doesn't call for a superlative.
Ok, so lots of quibblers here today and I am often one too, but for some of the nits - really? I am a chemist and usually you can drive a semi-truck full of high school chemistry books through the chemistry “not quite right” mistakes made.
I didn’t love this puzzle but jeez.
1
Fun puzzle! Genealogy had me so stumped until I (finally) knocked out the SE and got the reveal.
2
This was a tough trek for me. Through it, I did notice the mini theme of double E's (6), the uber-clean grid (which was a given, given the constructors), and I had a rollickksome laugh moment, when after agonizingly trying to picture whatever the heck that furniture with the crinkly paper was, I finally saw the exam table.
With easy cluing, this would have come off to me as a cute puzzle with a serviceable and clever add-a-sound theme. But today, with cluing that made me seriously knit my BROWNIE, it was a capital-S Solve. Today, for me, the journey was the star, one that was engaging, satisfying, and glorious. Thank you, gents.
9
@Lewis - I note that before me (after 2 hours) your post has no reccos. I made the point at another place - people who understood the puzzle, and got it, after however much struggle, don't really feel the need to "hit like" on every post that expresses the same!
Along the way, I thought I understood what was going on, and I fairly well did, yet the "journeyman" being my last fill meant that the coin dropped - for me - at the same time as the puzzle was solved. As you wrote, the journey was the star, man!
4
I don't know. The puzzle left me feeling grumpy. Especially JOURNYMAN + GENEAOLOGY, which I figured out long after entering High German and Geodeology (sad, I know). Getting the revealer helped. Didn't help that I thought NIA LONG pronounced her name "Nigh-a" like one of my students does. Loved INUKTITUT. The Knights Who Say "Ni" clip helped me feel better!
2
@Ann I felt grumpy about this one too. I don't know proper nouns, so even after I got the theme I felt confused because the first theme answer made no sense. I did enjoy 69A (eraser) though.
@Megan
And Johnny U made me smile! Do you remember The Goldren Arm restaurant? My Dad loved it.
1
VERTEX
Anyone able to identify what that is today? Abstraction? Something hatching?
@Puzzlemucker
The title is "Come Out of Your Shell" and it looks like a crab to me. If I squint. And tilt my head approximately 18 degrees to the left.
2
@Julia L.
21 degrees for me ;-). Crab being attacked by a toucan?
1
@Puzzlemucker
I agree with Julia. It looks like a crab.
1
Sorry, not a fan. Felt like a long walk for a short drink of water. I personally prefer it when “wrong answers” have some tongue-in-cheek connection to the “true” answer (or the clue) in SOME way. And if they’re not, then they definitely need to be starred or indicated in some meaningful way so that we don’t have to wait to have the whole board filled with crosses before it even remotely starts to make sense.
6
I liked this puzzle. And thanks for the Ni clip. I laughed out loud.
3
Once again I have filled in the letters correctly without knowing that they were correct until checking the answer. (I still prefer to do the puzzle on paper)
Without looking at any other comments (as I haven’t done today’s puzzles yet, just have to say, CHICLE???? *(Yesterday’s Spelling Bee; yes, there’s a definition out there, but c’mon!)
2
@Kate
Might be generational. I knew it from watching hundreds of commercials for Chiclets gum in the old days. Sure haven't heard it in years!
2
@Ann
Do people even chew gum anymore?
@Ann I think we’re of the same generation more or less, but somehow I never got the CHICLE from the gym ads—just thought it was a cute made up name!
1
I'm not a stickler for super-consistant theme answers, but I would have left out NIALONG. It felt like the constructors were desperate to get a fifth theme answer.
2
@PaulSFO
Why was NIA LONG inconsistent to you? Take out the NI and you've got ALONG, which is the answer.
2
clever puzzle! Cottoned on with NI ALONG and BROWNIE. This puzzle reminded me of an ORAL EXAM!
1
Because my Mother raised me to be polite, I'll refrain from saying what I truly think of this puzzle. Suffice to say it isn't positive.
10
@BW
MY mother always said, “If you can’t say something nice about (subject), don’t say anything.”
I’ve got NOTHING to say about this puzzle.
6
Why so much hate for this puzzle? It must be how my brain works, but I caught on with BROWNIE, and would have gotten it sooner if I’d known that NIA LONG was actually something (or someone, as I found out).
Of course the theme relies more on phonetics than consistent spelling, but that is an added dimension rather than a flaw, to my mind.
To TAKE A KNEE is an act of defiance. The complete entries are “in defiance” of the clues because of the (phonetic) KNEE. They have no relation to the clue, but TAKE the KNEE (sound) away and you will “hear” the answer to the clue.
Now if only we’d had “Masala___ (hot beverages)” be CHINESE!
Eric and Jeff, you had me at KNEE HOW!
18
Sorry, make that Erik!
1
@Andrew
First, the key clue only works if you happen to be thinking of what the composer happened to think of. Taking a knee *very* rarely symbolizes defiance. In football, QBs and kick returners take a knee to give up without being tackled, an act of concession not defiance. In boxing, to take a knee concedes a knockdown if not the entire fight. In military contexts, it means surrender.
When it isn't giving up, taking a knee usually indicates supplication, deference, or obeisance. Dropping to a knee when proposing reflects the old attitude that a bride is doing a groom a great favor (a sexist view also reflected in some etiquette authorities' still saying to congratulate grooms but not brides). Those living under monarchies, aristocracies, or hierarchical churches kneel to show deference (at least) to their "betters." So "taking a knee = defiance" is a very rarely correct equation.
Second, adding a "knee" (or a homophonic string of letters) isn't *taking* a knee. So the pun (or whatever it is supposed to be) doesn't work particularly well.
Third, the phonetic equivalences are somewhat iffy. The "jour" in journeyman and the "Ger" in German aren't identical in some pronunciations and British English speakers and those influenced by them don't make the "a" in genealogy into the "ah" of "o" in geology.
Fourth, and worst, the clues given for those five entries are simply wrong. "Gesundheit" doesn't come from some mysterious language spoken by journeymen.
6
@Dave
I think you were too harsh on some points. There are always different pronunciations depending on the particular accent. I’m from metro NYC and cringe at the way some other Americans pronounce words - as they do with the way I pronounce words (having “The Nanny” sitcom in your history helps some people lol).
As I understand “taking a knee” as Deb outlined, Kapernick was searching for some way to show protest specifically without being disrespectful. He consulted with a vet teammate and ended up with the knee. His respectful act of protest (as you note, it’s a sign of deference etc. usually) was twisted into a sign of disrespect. Shows how even well thought out plans can backfire.
I didn’t hate this puzzle but I think a little clueing (like a “I hear” in cryptic puzzles) would have helped.
1
What a contrast between the negative comments from people on this board, most of whom don't fully understand the theme, or are mad at the puzzle because it took them so long, and Rex Parker, usually considered the voice of negativity in crossworld.
The first line of his write-up today was, "What a clever, entertaining puzzle."
The difference is that Rex fully understood the puzzle and has the solving licks to complete the puzzle in a time consistent with his average times. (6:13 for him, and he rated it medium in difficulty--for a Thursday puzzle.)
Today, I fully agree with Rex.
You can read his write-up at https://rexwordpuzzle.blogspot.com/ .
3
@Steve L
The idea that people who dislike a puzzle must do so because they "don't fully get it" or because it ruined their time is an obvious instance of a common informal fallacy. You are either unable or unwilling to discuss the merits of the criticisms, so you sneer at those who disagree with you. You have no evidence whatever for your claims, which remind one of Youtube commenters trying to diminish people's opinions by calling them "haters" or saying that they must be too young to be able to appreciate X,
I didn't have any trouble with the puzzle, which was generally easier (I thought) than most Thursday puzzles. I found it poor for several reasons, including that the clues for those five entries aren't clever or vague or misleading, but are simply incorrect for the actual answers. It seems to me that the puzzlemakers task includes puzzling, mystifying, confusing, or even misleading us, but I loathe puzzles where there is no way whatever to solve a clue that yields the correct answer.
You have your own preferences, which appear to differ from mine. More power to you, but you aren't entitled to invent out of whole cloth the claim that those who don't share yours must differ because they aren't as clever as you.
16
@Dave
My evidence is what the naysayers say in their comments. Alex Kent said that it was too obscure for a normal person to figure out. And I thought I was normal.
John Kroll said NIA LONG didn't fit the pattern; it did. He clearly also didn't get the concept, saying that "jourman" isn't pronounced like "German."
Jbesen said "Gealogy is the study of rocks? I don't understand this clue." Or the concept.
LJADZ said basically the same thing.
Newbie posted a tirade, but at some point just after hitting Submit, s/he got it and then posted an apology, ending with TLDR: I'm a dope. No, Newbie, you're not. You're new, and open to learning.
Several people argued that NIA LONG was obscure; these are people who don't follow black actresses not named Halle Berry.
Others complained about the one true obscurity--INUKTITUT--but every cross was fair and easy, and who objects to learning something new?
It's OK if you don't like the puzzle, but not OK to complain if you don't understand it. There were some who said they did get the theme (I assume they were not mistaken) and still didn't like it. That's fine. But objectively, it's a great puzzle. Why? It has a clever theme, it's consistent, it's innovative, and it's a challenge.
(cont.)
6
I did say "most of whom," so you're not included. You don't like clues that are incorrect for the apparent answers, even if they are for the real answers after you've uncovered the trick. That's fine; feel free. I know people who hate lobster, too.
3
Very difficult Thursday (what’s new?). I was thrilled when, after a look at Deb’s column to figure out what I was missing, I found the theme. TAKEAKNEE is a subject near and dear to my heart and I thank Erik, Jeff, Will and the NYT for dedicating a puzzle to it. I knew when I got here there would be a plethora of negative comments, mostly couched in problems with the puzzle. Some of the protests are understandable to me (JOURNEYMAN) but I file that under Thursday wordplay.
It was fun seeing ERICA Kane being clued, and I love some NIALONG. I’m a fan of Erik’s puzzles, and I look forward to them on the REG.
The live solve on Twitter will be a “bring popcorn” moment. Looking forward to it!
13
LETTER BOXED
R-S(9), S-Y(5)
Yesterday same as NYT solution.
5
@Andrew
DITTO on both today and yesterday
1
@Andrew @Mari
Same here—and I must say I am always amused when the solution is a noun followed by a verb. Like a miniature short story.
@Sarah
My second word was an adjective, but your verb is much more satisfying!
SPELLING BEE GRID
Jan 16th 2020
O F H I R T W
WORDS: 30, POINTS: 93, PANGRAMS: 1
Starting Letters-Frequencies:
F x 5
H x 4
R x 6
T x 10
W x 5
Word Lengths -Frequencies:
4L x 18
5L x 8
6L x 2
7L x 1
9L x 1
Grid:
4 5 6 7 9 Tot
F 2 2 - - 1 5
H 2 - 1 1 - 4
R 5 1 - - - 6
T 6 4 - - - 10
W 3 1 1 - - 5
Tot 18 8 2 1 1 30
(Y-Axis: Starting Letters, X-Axis: Word Lengths, X/Y Co-ordinates: Frequency/Number of Words for that letter and length)
62
@Mari as a Brit (or resident familiar with the local parlance), I imagine you must also take issue with the lack of TOFF
First two letter list:
FO-4, FR-1
HO-4
RI-1, RO-5
TH-1, TO-6, TR-3
WO-5
The most obscure words are familiar to frequenters of the Bee, such as the architectural T5, geometric T4, or the R4 which I’m still not sure is a real word but sounds like part of a plumbing company.
Two compound words, one enthusiastic exclamation, and a film genre are the longest words.
19
@Sarah @Mari, got a late start today (hah) but got to 28 words before getting stuck. MIssed the flatbread but i dug up an old pledge, wished for a heady brew, and with haste exuberantly cried out and with burning appendages, eagerly got to QB. Yay!
13
@Mari Thanks Mari and Dave for grid and hints, though I did get to QB without them.
Plenty of familiar Bee words, but a few new ones. The H7 practical joke was my favorite new word here.
6
The more things change, the more they stay the same, 2020 edition:
1. See Agard
2. Breeze through and/or have fun
3. Fish for my eyeballs in the back of my head after I’ve peruses the comments
The NYT had a wonderful feature this past week about Arctic Canadian women *finally* having the resources to give birth near their homes, where trained midwives speak INUKTITUT. For far too long, the Canadian government has been recommending they give birth hundreds of miles away where they’re often isolated and treated differently.
7
Okay, where’s the typo ERASER when I need it (my favorite clue in the puzzle!)
2
I generally find that people "love" a puzzle they can solve and "hate" a puzzle they can't. I am not one of those people as I generally can't complete a late week puzzle. I did finish this without any help/lookups, although I had no idea why the music played, since I was certain I had a bunch of letters wrong. Solving a Thurs is not a given for me.
That said, this puzzle (yes, I know it is Thursday) is straight up trash (respectfully speaking?).
I figured out the remove the "knee" sound, but couldn't understand all the weird spellings. I come to wordplay to find out stuff was intentionally misspelled?
Is HOBEE phonetically pronounced hubby? No chance, it's pronounced hobby. Would anyone honestly pronounce GEALOGY as geology?
Why misspell some of the theme answers and not others?
And how is ALONG phonetically in defiance of its clue? or BROWNIE? Does anyone pronounce brow different from brow-nie?
There was zero consistency. NEY was even repeated as the "knee" sound in two of the "themers". At least come up with 5 different ways to "spell" "knee".
22
(cont.)
I get it, Chen and Agard, are gods in the constructor world. I can't imagine Shortz would ever approve this crossword if it was submitted by say a Bojan (not picking on you, I swear).
Interlacing a "knee" sound in words plus misspelling doesn't equal clever. Using this "trick" and not even being consistent across the five entries is just lazy.
Wow, this is by far the harshest comment I've ever written by 10x. Man, I expected so much better when I saw these two guys had teamed up.
16
@Newbie agree! I finished this and absolutely hated it. I just have a big lecture to my boyfriend (who doesn't do crosswords) about all the things I didn't like.
The worst part is, even knowing the theme and having the puzzle finished, I couldn't figure out half of the themers.
4
@Newbie
I am looking at this again, after regrettably posting my tirade. [The "send" moment Deb spoke about earlier this week]
I will concede, if pronouncing the entire word entry and dropping the "knee" sound, things do make more sense. I will argue NIALONG (whoever he/she/it is) is incongruent, but I think I get the "trick".
But, but, but, I will argue the answers aren't in "defiance" of their clues...
TLDR: I'm a dope. Chen and Agard are much, much, much smarter at wordplay than me.
12
The oboe does not have “a” cork, per the column. It has cork, per the clue, and said cork is a covering over the tenons that connect the upper joint to the lower, and the lower joint to the bell, as well as the “staple” that joins the reed to the upper joint. Cork has the right amount of give and friction to hold the pieces of the instrument solidly together and yet allow it to be assembled and disassembled easily.
5
@bratschegirl
You left out the cork pads that seal the keys.
But clues are hints and cutesy is part of what you can expect on Thursday.
2
@Martin
@bratschegirl was not taking issue with the clue but rather with the column.
6
If I had one major wish, it would be that commenters topicalize (I'm responding to the column, I'm calling out the Mini, this is all about something I met in an archived puzzle from twenty years ago) the comments!
Ironically - Cork has largely been replaced by a variety of materials for use in pads that seal the keys (per Martin) - but cork is a relatively modern innovation replacing what was formerly wrapped waxed threads (still used in bagpipes and some other instruments) for sealing the joints. In sum, there are very few oboes where cork is used for both purposes, while nearly all oboes use cork somewhere!
1
Usually when my entries sound right but are spelled wrong, I have to flyspeck to get the happy music. Not today. Hope that becomes standard practice.
Solved it using the crosswords
Came here for the theme explanation
Just awful
16
and Elke
This puzzle was one that found me talking out loud, trying to sound out various answers, spec. NIALONG and GENEALOGY, until HO(NEY)BEE, sitting at his very MESSY desk* , wondered out loud what I was up to.....
Told him I was practicing INUKTITUT , since we had > 1 foot of snow in the last two days (and no melting rain ), our landscape here in downtown Vancouver (we are a couple of blocks from City Hall) rivals that of Nunavut, where the Inuit language is spoken.
Minor quibble- YETIS are legendary. There is a lack of evidence to confirm their existence- thus no "sightings".
Liked the ERASER being "opposite of the point".
* He has a Garfield cartoon "Einstein's desk was this MESSY"
hanging on the wall above (walls being the only free space left...
I will now STOW it- more snow is on the way overnight and need to REST up . Saw people clearing the snow from their cars with
hocKEY sticks. (Snowbrushes being rarely needed, but this is Canada, so hockey sticks are).
OKIE DoKEY.
FYI- weather systems move from West to East- so be forwarned.
3
FYI the study of rocks is petrology. The study of the Earth is geology, a much broader subject that includes more than rocks. Just sayin’.
28
OK, but the clue didn't say the study of only rocks.
@Sarah Ulerick True, but this is a crossword, not a dictionary.
If you found this clue problematic, you're gonna go off like a PliNIan eruption if you do today's Wall Street Journal puzzle:
https://blogs.wsj.com/puzzle/crossword/20200116/45194/index.html
Please let me know if you check it out, and what you think. You will have no trouble identifying the entry to which I'm referring.
3
@Chief Quahog Wow--first time I've done a WSJ puzzle--are they normally behind the pay wall? And are they normally that clean?
This was the most fun I’d had on a Thursday in a long time—and I think one of the few I’ve finished without reading the Wordplay column for help along the way. I didn’t catch the HONEYBEE = HUBBY until I read it here, though—I’d half-wondered if it was some unknown-to-me twist on honeybun. Thanks, creators!
12
Obscure and challenging are not synonyms; clever is not always a compliment. Do the editors take a day off when Mr. Agard submits a puzzle?
Not my cup of tea, obviously.
55
Agree. You construct puzzles with word lists but you don’t solve with them. Some consideration of the solver is incumbent on the constructor.
3
So tricky!
“GE-NEA(KNEE)-OLOGY” was tricky enough... and
“JOUR(GER)-NEY(KNEE)-MAN” almost broke my brain even after I thought I understood the gimmick!
2
The theme was too tortured and inconsistent for my taste, but my masochist side urged me to *play along*.
INUKTITUT is not in my active vocabulary. Perhaps it should be, especially if I were planning to move to the Canadian Arctic in the near future.
I meant to mention that H is definitely a key in Hungarian as well, but Fact Boy beat me to the punch, and this is an English language puzzle.
BALT: Bronchus-associated lymphoid tissue.
As the Guadalupe pilgrims slow down towards the end of their JOURNEY, MAN, bystanders urge them on: "NIA LONG!"
6
@Laszlo, a joke for catholic tastes...
Will have to compare with Montreal's St Joseph's Oratory --- lotsa lotsa stairs!!
1
@Leapfinger,
I'm nothing if not unorthodox.
A defense of STOW IT:
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Stow+it!
3
Journeyman. Sums it up.
2
@Deb the past tense of lead is L E D., as in “led by the former NFL...”
1
Well, we're in for a treat with the comments on this one, that could have been predicted as soon as we saw: Thursday...Agard...Chen...
I saw the EFGH clue and wrote "note" - the actual answer "keys" gave me the same reaction - as FactBoy and jbesen have already "noted", H is a note in German nomenclature; I've said before how much I wish they'd stop using this clue. Here's the opening of Bach's profound Mass in B Minor, Messe H-Moll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_HK8PnLSJY
But at least it's a learning opportunity for the curious. The German names B (for B-flat) and H (for B-natural) have their roots in two ways of writing a lower-case "b", one with rounded bowl and one with squared-off. The "soft", rounded shape (mollis = soft) became our modern flat sign; the "hard", squared shape (durum = hard) became our modern natural sign. They also grew into the letters B and H in German, and the use of Moll for minor and Dur for major. It's all connected, and due to the fact that B-flat was for centuries the _only_ note other than the basic scale ("white notes").
Here's a link to a brief video about Inuktitut language and writing, from Tom Scott:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW4hI_METac
Unfortunately, my lack of awareness of Nia Long kept me from grasping things as quickly as I might have - all the other theme answers made sense to me, but I didn't know what to do with that extra Ni.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gUNZAmFfKA
9
@David Connell - I started writing this reply last night but then backed off. It's about your statement "my lack of awareness of Nia Long kept me from grasping things" but it was late, I was tired.
NIA has been clued for actress Long plenty of time - two other times this year, 4 times last year, and so on. Mostly it's been about actress Vardalos and more rarely, actress Peeples.
You must have some subconscious block against actress Long? I have to admit, I think I have the same block, because I thought I've only seen it 1-2 times before, and I've done all of the puzzles in the last few years too. Maybe because Long is not such an unusual last name.
@David C
lol -- Good for you on your 5 cents worth of Nickels! I won't fault you for missing the collodion -- it's pretty specialized
1
@Wen - I am me.
If I have ever seen Nia Long in anything (I visited her imdb page, and I believe I have never seen any of her anythings) - she didn't register with me. I freely admit it, even if it makes me look (sexist, racist, ageist) bad. I was merely saying, "I don't know 'nialong' as a thing." And I was merely telling the truth. Better than lying, says I, though that is not the example we're being set just now. I haven't seen her in anything; her name, if it means anything to me, would be the same as: erne, (though I've seen them irl), nene (though I've fed them irl), or any number of other "crosswordese" terms that actually mean something to me, versus what I'm expected to know because...it's there. I don't mislead here: "nialong" mystified me. I don't visit google before a solve, and I haven't watched the films she's in. So, that letter-string mystified me. Just being honest.
1
Figured it out; didn't love it.
19
What a tedious exercise. "Jourman" is not a phonetic match for "German", and "stow it"? (said no one ever). There are so many other questionable entries I can't even be bothered.
I'm sure the constructors are very pleased with themselves, but this puzzle should never have made it to print. It is absolutely awful. The editing has gotten so weak in recent years I'm getting close to cancelling my subscription.
44
stow it
slang To stop talking. Often used as an imperative.Stow it, sis—I don't need to hear your opinion on everything I do!Mr. Riley, if you don't stow it this instant, I'm going to send you to the principal's office.
Definitely have used it to quiet things down in the back seat on a long car ride.
10
@LJADZ Maybe you misunderstood the theme. Take the word JOURNEYMAN and phonetically remove the KNEE sound. You're left with GERMAN.
You are NOT supposed to remove the letters making the KNEE sound then re-pronounce what's left over. GEALOGY wouldn't be pronounced like "geology," HOBEE wouldn't be pronounced like "hubby," etc.
You were able to solve the puzzle without fully understanding what was happening, which is fine, but that doesn't mean the editing was bad.
30
@mjm No you haven't.
I can't say I was happy with this one. I felt it went beyond tricky into arbitrary or random.
49
Your politics aside, a fun solve.
4
@RP I was very disappointed by that aspect of this otherwise enjoyable puzzle.
1
I did check to see if the black squares mimicked a bent leg, or the letter T.
3
Gealogy is the study of rocks? I don't understand this clue.
"H" is a key. German musical notation uses H to denote what is also called B natural, and "B" refers to B flat.
Old German-manufactured Hohner harmonicas-- which had the individual note letters etched above the holes--when pitched to scales involving B natural--used the note H.
jbesen,
It's not just GEAOLOGY. Three of the five themer answers are correct only when spoken, not as written.
(See elsewhere regarding H.)
4
Pardon me: GEALOGY.
1
@jbesen
To amplify on Deb's phonetic explanation:
ge-ne-al-o-gy.
Removing (taking) the syllable "ne" => ge-al-o-gy which sounds like geology
3
My longest Thursday since last Thursday’s “Take a T” puzzle.
A fight to the very end. This tested my phonetic flexibility like no Thursday that I can remember since Jeff’s Pig Latin puzzle. Worked my way through INUKTITUT and GENEALOGY (which I got, changed, got again, changed again, got), only to find after minutes of flyspecking that I had YEpS / STOp in that devilish middle section. I’ll SPARE you one of my favorite Sylvia Plath poems from which I first learned of YEW trees. I’ll just STOW it.
1
@Puzzlemucker
Last Thursday, I was slower than average by a considerable margin, but today, I was even slower.
2
@Steve L
Same here. These last two Thursday puzzles may turn off new Thursday solvers from Thursdays forever, and neither one even had a rebus. Loved ‘em both, but will not be everyone’s cup of CHAI.
3
@Puzzlemucker
The reverse for me. Last Thursday I never would have finished without using Check Puzzle numerous times to stay on track. This week only had to look up a few things in the dictionary, such as uber to see what it meant besides a car service and how to spell genealogy. Journeyman was particularly devious for me as I had confidently plopped German in there right off the bat.
I normally love the work of these two guys, but this one was just too much of a stretch.
70
57D.
The first album I ever owned.
8
A rather lame Thursday puzzle - too “cute” for its own good. The supposedly tricky clues solves themselves
18
I’m actually okay with almost all of this, even the journeyman - German trickery. But 42a - no. Just no. Nobody says “stow it” when they mean “hush.” I will die on this hill.
50
@Nick - when are the services?
10
@David Connell
Is this the organist's equivalent of ambulance chasing?
16
@Al in Pittsburgh - the following is a true story:
My organ teacher was serving at a church in New York that had a wrap-around balcony, making the organ accessible to anyone in the balcony. As he was just finishing the postlude one day, he heard a sharp voice at his back:
"Young man! You play _too_fast_ and _too_loud_!" Startled, he eyed the accuser and then replied, "Madam, you'll note that I'm sitting here and you're standing there."
"Well, _what_ of _that_?"
"That means the Trustees of this church believe I am better able to decide these things than you, and if you dispute that, you should take it up with them."
"I could _never_ do that! I'm not a member of this church!"
"Well, where _are_ you a member?"
"Saint Bartholomew's."
"Oh, I'm sure my friend Jack Ossewaarde would be happy to work with you there."
"I'm never going back there. That man insulted me!"
"What did he say?"
"He said,... he said,...he wanted to play my funeral!"
[pause]
"Well, you just let me know the date, and I'll go turn his pages!"
[pause]
The woman began to laugh - and eventually left a lot of money to maintain the organ at that church.
[Jack O. plays the St. Bart's organ in the wedding scene in the 1981 film "Arthur", btw.]
9
I had some funny with this puzzle. That Jeff Nietzschean is a tricky one.
15
@danny
Too bad they didn’t use “Jeff Nietzschean and Erik Any Knee Guard” as their noms de grid.
12
To 68-Across: In central, eastern, and northern Europe, the key known in English as B-minor is called the key of H; see, for instance, J. S. Bach’s Messe in H-moll (Mass in B minor, BWV 232).
7
@Fact Boy
I knew that someone would bring this up. This is an American, English-language puzzle, and apparently, you're thinking in JOURNEYMAN.
10
Steve,
That was a genuine Fact Boy fact post. He didn't say anything in the puzzle was incorrect, and he even stated the H wasn't in English.
8
@Barry Ancona
Actually, I didn't say he found the puzzle to be wrong.
4
Ugh. Too many convolutions for my taste. Nia Long is a person, yes, but that doesn’t fit the pattern of the others. Jourman doesn’t sound like German when I pronounce it. And aside from the clunky theme answers, the rest didn’t seem up to Thursday levels. Wish this one had been sent back for more reworking.
87
@John Kroll
Jourman isn't a word, so it doesn't have a set pronunciation. JOURNEYMAN minus the "knee" sound is pronounced exactly like GERMAN.
Why doesn't NIA LONG fit the pattern? When you pronounce it without the "knee" sound, it's ALONG. Are you saying that since the other four aren't proper names, this one can't be?
Sorry, John, you lost me after "Too many convolutions for my taste."
11
A waste of effort. Too obscure for a normal person to figure out.
7
@Alex Kent
I must not be normal then. I knew something was up early with NIA LONG. JOURNEYMAN fell shortly after and that was my aha moment.
10
@Alex Kent
Like Kiki, I figured it out. I think I'm normal. Now you've got me worried.
6
Steve,
Not to worry; not normal is the new normal.
9
TIL Inuktitut is a language... and found an introduction to the language on YouTube: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iPGAbctSHuY
11
The five answers "take a knee" phonetically, as promised in the revealer clue, but it might have been appropriate to also note that the answers themselves might only be phonetic. That the first two were spelled correctly was -- IMO -- more awkward than Thursday misleading.
Otherwise, fairly clued and in some cases fairly funny.
20
I thought that was a lot of fun. Some very clever clues in there, and I learned a few things, too! I had BEER BONG instead of BEER PONG (for some reason SBRIG sounded right as I quickly said it to myself and moved on), so that delayed my happy music.
18
I just really like your username. I consider myself more of a Sue.
1
Wonderful puzzle. Favourite ‘tricky’ puzzle since AVC’s ‘Abolish ICE’ from a few months back. Thank-you for cluing 11A the way you did!
4
I didn’t buy Deb’s conclusion that TAKEAKNEE referred to Colin Kaepernick’s peaceful protest until I realized NINER was also in the puzzle, clued as the NFL team. Fully persuaded now!
14
Probably the hardest Thursday in recent memory. But a great solve!
We're going to get a lot of complaints that it was a stupid puzzle, but I'm not quantifying this time.
David?
5
@Steve L
I’ll take the over on 88 and make a PUT bet against myself.
5
Deb, thanks so much for posting the Monty Python! When I got the theme, that's what came to mind immediately. So I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought of it.
I was somewhat baffled by this. Once I got 37D, I could see (and hear) the correct answers for NIA LONG, BROWNIE, JOURNEYMAN (wicked, that one!), and GENEALOGY. But I couldn't parse HONEYBEE into HUBBY. I think I was tripped up by the difference between the O and the U--they're pronounced alike here but they sure look different. I don't know why this kind of thing didn't bother me with JOURNEYMAN and did bother me here, but that's just the way my brain was working.
I tried YO DAWG before YO DUDE, but figured it had to be UNITAS.
It was tricky enough, and met my expectations for a Chen/Agard puzzle.
14
@Liz B
Oh, what sad times are these when puzzle constructors can add 'ni' at will to 15 by 16 grids. There is a pestilence upon this land. Nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Something smells of elderberries...
14
@Roger Shrubber
I believe you nailed it with typical Shrubber ease: it may well be the shrubberies as ails ya, but I believe in the final analysis, it'll be the shrubberies that will UNITAS.
With so many Boomers on board, what else but elderberries?
2
Huh ? Pretty arcane theme. Wasn’t adding up, thought there might have been some typos like earlier in the week.
3