@Mary, trump is not perceived as a force for freedom abroad. He’s perceived as a lunatic child who has to be stepped around.
The US is a powerful country. It still is seen as a force for freedom in some ways. Trump is another authoritarian who is about to be impeached. Two very different things.
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The Commies are flexing their muscles in China, North Korea and Russia, run by a former Commie. They represent dictatorships and corruption at their worst. It was never about Marxism or Communist ideology. The West needs to come to grips with the real Commie menace.
They are not communists; they’re just dictators, the kind of people Trump loves and wants to emulate.
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@JM That is what I said- "It was never about Marxism or Communist ideology."
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It always seemed to me that we would have the same protests in our streets as they have in Hong Kong; protests like we had when I was young about
practically every cause you might think of, some of great importance and some just to stir things up. d
I never thought that baby boomers would lead these protests, as we clearly messed things up, with Presidents Clinton, Bush jJ., and Trump as the leaders my generation gave America (although I believe Clinton did an excellent job).
But protests seem the province of the young, and yet it's not happening. Perhaps our youth is afraid, or they've had too much screen time and they're brainwashed, or they're really pretty happy and don't see any reason to protest at all.
Still, I'm reluctant to admit I'm not keen to go back out to the streets myself, it's a real highway to hell. But i would, if only someone else would take the lead...
So this looks like about 10% of the population of Hong Kong. These protests have become so popular that it would be extremely difficult to crack down on them effectively using brutal means. Doing so would also most likely destroy the economy entirely.
It would cost Beijing less to compromise with the demonstrators, but I don’t know if that will occur to anyone.
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It’s been 6 months and all they have accomplished is the formal withdrawal of a bill that was dead anyway. These people need to realize that the elephant in the room is Beijing and it’s security concerns needs to be addressed if any reform is possible. Waving American flags in Beijing’s own backyard doesn’t do much good.
Anyway it is already the new status quo. It is oddly normal here nowadays as people’s tolerance of inconvenience has grown. At the end of the day Beijing only cares about HK as a conduit for finance and finance lives in its own bubble here anyway. No matter how bad it get money will still flow one way or another. In other words, the locals will be the ones left holding the bag.
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@Sean What genuine “security concerns” does China have with Hong Kong? It’s not like conceding to the protestors to remove Carrie Lam or instituting universal suffrage will lead to China suffering attack, economic crisis, or invasion.
Like most authoritarian countries, many of China’s “security concerns” is coded language for dissent.
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Can China use Hong Kong as a leverage in the Trade talks?
THIS, my weak-kneed fellow Americans, is what democracy looks like.
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If only we in America could pour out into the streets in such numbers to demand a more equitable society. Too busy shopping I guess.
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This is amazing! First they protest and then they go out and vote! They win elections. How long can the Chinese government hold out! This massive protest changed my view from just hope to eventually prevailing. It is lesson for all of us.
Stay strong!
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THE MAINLAND CHINESE Are going to have a very difficult time putting this genie back in the bottle, since they have uncorked it with the threat of unleashing their own pandemonium. They are fully cognizant of the fact that there are enough satellite phones to take pictures of any bloodbath, so chances are that a repeat of Tienanmen Square will not be shrouded in secrecy. Quite the opposite. I'm sure that the mainland Chinese are watching carefully and having at the very least, a kaleidoscope of restive feelings in response. Clearly not all of those feelings will be true red.
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Let's learn from those Hong Kong protesters .. Let's do the same here. Let's get our democracy back, you know, the democracy that the current administration has been stripping away from us, piece by piece, bit by bit.
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God bless them all. Beijing promised them universal suffrage and a continuation of their separate legal system for 50 years.
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Xi Jinping has broken both promises.
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All those who criticize the "violence" - what would you do under similar circumstances? The violence that happens every day across the border, in many different forms, is what Hongkongers fear.
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Trump should come out with an unequivocal statement in support of the protesters and tell Xi to keep China's promises. Because of Beijing's need for a trade deal, Trump has leverage that no American president may ever have again. He should use it.
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Oppression is violence. People are not infinitely malleable, and eventually they WILL rise up against intolerable governments. Authoritarianism and totalitarianism are once again waking up all over the world (even in our own beloved United States of America) and we know what that looks like, and what it inevitably leads to. If you want to see the future, look at Hong Kong today.
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Once again the US shows its hypocritical , self interested attitude to foreign affairs. Anyone who has studied the regime changes and wars of the last fifty years caused by the US understand this. Hong Kong has been able to elicit lots of concessions China will not give it independance which is ultimately what is being requested here. Noone cared about the fact that it was run by oligarchs with oppressive controls over housing and other rights before this all started. The US senate did not pass laws against Burma, Saudi Arabia and so many other basket case countries. This show of support ( from a US that itself has a dodgy human rights record) s just part of the US anti China hegemonic agenda. All that support for Syrian rebels and 400000 deaths later nothing was won. We need to see a world not run by the mafia rules of foreign policy by the US . One where a country is not threatened because it wants to trade with a country the US has unilaterally banned in some way or imposed conditions on. I am hoping to see a much stronger EU and stronger multilateralism in the future as the US tantrum over China progress will lead us into another war .
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@ken The majority of Hong Kong protestors are not demanding independence. That’s a straight up propaganda lie by Beijing, deliberate exaggerating the most radical fringe of the Hong Kong democracy movement.
The vast majority of protestors want two things: the resignation of Carrie Lam and fair elections for the Legislative Council by universal suffrage. Beijing knows it’s far harder to defend its rejection of these demands than it is to denounce the small “separatist” minority, so it focuses almost exclusively on the latter.
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NYT 's news stories and follow ups in other pages on Hong Kong 's violations of civil rights conditions are much appreciated is working effectively on China . Nevertheless ,
since August 5 , 2019 the Indian Security forces' are engaged in unprecedented , brutal , inhumane , uncivilized atrocities on Kashmir' s residents adversely impacting , 8 million people of the valley . They almost in one voice are shouting : " ‘We Cannot Find a Way Out’ . " These folks daily normal freedom to work, go to daily business . schools , Doctors Clinics Hospitals , Markets - Bazaars rand take care of other errands , under curfew in several major cities for over 3 months . If this is not height of violation of civil rights , what would ? Also there are news reports from Kashmir that the police has started forcibly taking over people' s Homes for the Indian Troops . Why a world , and international Human and Civil Rights organizations are silently watching India' s human and civilian order violations as new normal . What do you think ?
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I have had colleagues from HK when I lived in Houston, TX.
I have to say, that this will end badly for these youngsters. Very badly. They are not going to win this by being belligerent, and through these protests. The fact is that President Xi is showing a great deal of patience, and is taking note of all of these persons who are involved in this. Slowly and surely, I bet that China will finish these folks off into oblivion, and get everything in order.
These immature kids do not understand that it has taken a lot of discipline and control from the top tomake China the 2nd largest economy in the world on their way to becoming the largest. The central government in China is showing immense amount of restraint and the moment the patience runs out, they will clamp down on each and everyone of these protests with an iron fist. Trump or someone much larger than him would not be able to end such a clampdown.
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When did "Over There" become crickets Over Here
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Now this, what happened today, is how you do pro democracy protests. Not by throwing petrol bombs and shooting arrows into policemen.
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Imagine how much better a country we’d be if Americans shared this level of commitment to democracy.
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Um, lets see:
-Massive income inequality
- A government bought and paid for by special interests that doesn’t represent actual citizens
- Lousy expensive “healthcare “
- Salaries that don’t keep up with the cost of housing, taxes, etc.
- Incessant gun violence
Etc., etc.
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Incredible! We're praying for you. God bless you.
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Wish I could say the Yanks are coming. Right now we are lucky to have a job and if we protest out of a job. The new normal. You have way more courage.
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@Florence
The solution to being 'lucky' to have a job, is to vote for the person, people, who know what it is like to brave the frightening world of loss and worry. Jobs should be plentiful, not just statistics of low wage workers coming back to a bit of safety and not a living wage.
Not one Swamp Trump appointee knows ANYTHING about us.
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Wish the " The Yanks are coming" would be part of this with loud moral support ringing throughout the world. Democracy.:USA.
Sadly, Trump: Crickets
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Bless you all!
Historically, when humanity seems so compromised, uncaring, selfish and helpless,
People rise up, put their lives on the line for freedom. Hongkongers you are an inspiration!
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Those who see Beijing as overly threatened by this process don't understand what is going on. The one country two systems approach China established envisaged HK developing a system of universal suffrage for selecting its leader - a democratic system it never had under the British. So evolving towards that sort of system is all part of the plan and in fact HK was offered a systm of universal suffrage for electing their leaders by Beijing in 2007 which was rejected (I think unwisely) because Beijing wanted to vet the final candidates to ensure they did not advocate separatism. Furthermore, the reason they have been so hands off about HK and will continue to be so is the whole 1997 one country two systems approach was designed to demonstrate to Taiwan they could come back and join the fold without altering their current democratic system which they adopted in the 1970s.
A new approach will be put forward the question is whether the significant nativist Cantonese element in HK is willing to do this peacefully and rationally.
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As a high school kid from Hong Kong more than 70 years ago and I am wondering what will it take to end this endless demonstrations peacefully. Xi Jinping is not going to step down and what Hong Kongers are going to do? I love Hong Kong and I still have many friends in Hong Kong.
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@McLean123 Rick Scott; Republican Florida; is very concerned about Democracy in Hong Kong. In America? Not at all. Ray Sipe
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I’m encouraged by the protesters in Hong Kong who are desperately trying to achieve a democracy while at the same time I’m appalled by so many Americans who seem so willing to give up theirs.
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@Dusty Cummings
You seem very uninformed by the context of the protests in Hong Kong. When the US openly endorses elements in HK, it's supposed to be an affirmation of democracy. But if Russians were to favour a candidate in the US elections, then it's called election interference.
The protests in Hong Kong have more to do with autonomy and the interpretation of the 'One Country Two Systems' framework supporting democracy per se. If China tomorrow throws support behind a referendum in Puerto Rico (as demanded by the Non-Aligned Movement since 1961)
Also, why does a democracy like India not comment on the turn of events in Hong Kong? Because India believes in non-interference and non-intervention in the affairs of other sovereign nations. So does China. But the US doesn't. Think about it, have US interventions like the one in Iraq really helped the locals. Rather, the Iraq invasion triggered instability which has claimed the lives of at 300,000 Iraqis since 2003. But when China (and the UN) did not endorse the Iraq invasion, they were wrong?
Do you really expect me to believe that US support for HK protesters (rioters effectively since they have resorted to violence in multiple instances), really amounts to a support for democracy per se? You don't think there is any ulterior agenda to undermine domestic stability of a geostrategic competitor in the midst of a trade war?
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@Dusty Cummings
You seem very uninformed by the context of the protests in Hong Kong. When the US openly endorses elements in HK, it's supposed to be an affirmation of democracy. But if Russians were to favour a candidate in the US elections, then it's called election interference.
The protests in Hong Kong have more to do with autonomy and the interpretation of the 'One Country Two Systems' framework than supporting democracy per se. If China tomorrow throws support behind a referendum for greater independence in Puerto Rico (as demanded by the Non-Aligned Movement since 1961), would the US approve?
Also, why does a democracy like India not comment on the turn of events in Hong Kong? Because India believes in non-interference and non-intervention in the affairs of other sovereign nations. So does China. But the US doesn't. Think about it, have US interventions like the one in Iraq really helped the locals. Rather, the Iraq invasion triggered instability which has claimed the lives of at 300,000 Iraqis since 2003. But when China (and the UN) did not endorse the Iraq invasion, they were wrong?
Do you really expect me to believe that US support for HK protesters (rioters effectively since they have resorted to violence in multiple instances), really amounts to a support for democracy per se? You don't think there is any ulterior agenda to undermine domestic stability of a geostrategic competitor in the midst of a trade war?
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@Dusty Cummings
I think Trump is the inspiration for people not only in Hong Kong but also elseware in the world.
Not for nothing American Flags were waving among the crowd.
Trump is perceived abroad as a force for freedom !
1
We are very lucky to be living in a country where the only thing wrong is that we have to flush our toilets 10 or 15 times.
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@Charles Baran
And it is a major annoyance; we don't have enough water left over to wash our hands. Do you have any idea how we elected a man who really is the crazy uncle you have to invite for holiday dinners? I had lovely in-laws with an immediate elderly family member who came to all dinners over a period of years; she always drove by the house many times until someone had to run out into the street and flag her down. She was a saint compared to the old guy who apparently lives on hamberders.
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So what’s the worse thing that can happen if these demonstrations become a regular weekly ritual? Big new market for protest gear and people get their exercise.
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@John Doe, good point. Look at Church, people do it every week but nothing tangible comes of it other than it makes them feel good for the moment until the finally realize the myth and then feel like a fool for being suckered. Chinese democracy is probably no different. The division democracy has sown in a country the size of America, just imagine in one the size of China.
Long live liberty. Thank you Hong Kong for inspiring those of us in the west who have watched the creep of authoritarianism. May they inspire massive voter turnout in the US next year. Democracy 2020!
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Agree!
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@Jackson
Stephen Miller is an example; he is the brains behind family separations and children in cages. Whoever is now in charge of selling off public lands. Barr who believes the President has unlimited powers. Trump who is the only one who can fix the toilet problem.
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@Jackson. If you can’t fathom it then try changing your channel.
Note the problem : persistent use of the word "demand" is inconsistent with reasoned dialogue. And the protester's chose the wrong target initially : the extradition bill (which meant nothing to 99.999% of the populace and which began with strong support - aimed as it was originally at the extradition from HK to Taiwan of a young guy who was alleged to have murdered his girlfriend) after which the protest movement had to expand their "demands" to justify their existence.
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@Philip
Regarding the subject at hand which is justice in China
Who is Liu Xiaobo to you? What does his life work mean to Hong Kong today?
3
Trump has no artful deal with China nor Saudi Arabia. He has jeopardized relations with China through his wild tariff strategy and seems simply subjugated to the saudis. There is no US position regarding the Hong Kong protests, no push back on the Saudi terrorist--and radio silence regarding Iraq, Iran, and Latin American unrest as poor governance has starved most citizens or basic services around the world.
America is inching closer to this very calamity as our infrastructure remains degraded after 3 years of Trump stalling & tax cuts. Building a Wall is not our highest national priority by any measure of common sense.
Hong Kong protests require deft statesmanship, perhaps an offer to broker a deal.
We were Reagan's 'shining city on the hill'-- but now we are Trump's dump.
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@Jackson
First: the deal was for production of NON-weaponized plutonium with U.N. Inspectors on site. Second: the trade-off was for release of Americans taken hostage when they stumbled on to Iranian territory. Third: Congress refused funding for infrastructure repair; that was shoved back to States after they were required to pay more taxes. As a 4th generation Californian from S.F. who worked on the East Coast for 22 yrs, a few of which were spent in Virginia, I remember signals strung on wires over the roadways, waving in the wind. I also remember a lot of pick up trucks with Confederate flags. Alexandria was charming; the State was beautiful. California is still the benchmark for research, good public education, an involved highly taxed citizenry, and a tolerance for newcomers.
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Protests alone will not lead to progress. There need to be meaningful dialogues and compromises to move things forward. Five demands, not one less is a nice slogan, but upon close inspection, one sees that it is a no starter because it makes maximalist demands that makes compromises impossible.
One is to grant amnesty to all arrested protestors. Let’s keep in mind that there have been widespread vandalism that cannot be granted blanket amnesty if the protestors want a HK ruled by law. The only death with definite link to the protests and police response is a 70 old man who died from a brick thrown at him by a protestor. Another was set on fire for arguing with the protestors. A police officer was slashed in the neck with a box cutter. These extreme acts of violence cannot be pardoned.
Another demand is universal suffrage, which was written in the basic law. However, another article in the basic law says that HK must pass national security laws to protect Chinese sovereignty and criminalise sedition. These are two opposite sides of the coin. China will only grant HK universal suffrage if national security law is passed in HK, which is within China’s sovereign right. As long as the protestors ignore the opposite side of the coin, the door to compromise and progress is shut.
For the moment, it will be more useful for the protestors to press the Govt on issues of governance that leaves Beijing out of it.
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"From the early summer through to early winter", says one of the slogans a protest wrote during the protest.
The perseverance of HKers in their fight against a cruel totalitarian regime, moves the entire humanity, echoes in the heart of everyone of Chinese descent in the free world, and above all, accelerates the collapse of the CCP regime.
There shall be a monument for HKers for their glory and the price they paid for freedom. Lest we forget.
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I would like to point out that this is the same type of reasoning that led to the Iraq war and the resulting humanitarian disaster. Don’t let ideology blind you to the consequences of what you wish for, unless you think the lives of millions of Iraqis was worth the price of removing Saddam Hussein.
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@Leto
A better comparison is probably the collapse of the Berlin Wall and disintegration of the Soviet Union. Whether the outcome will be the same remains to be seen.
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@Leto What the Irar War teaches us is that democracy at the barrel of a gun by a foreign power is a bad idea - sometimes. It doesn't say anything anything about democracy proper, which I believe should mainly be driven by the people who want it. Even the US revolution had help from the French with their own ulterior motives against the British. The Indian independence movement against the British also sought help from foreign powers (though not Gandhi, but he tried to do this in South Africa also).
But then it worked for Israel (and I think it largely was okay - wish the Palestinians could be as well off).
China does not permit individual rights, individual though, free speech, governance by the people.
China wants George Orwell’s 1984 — they must obey.
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@Richard
Ever been to China? Thought so. The Chinese are far from being Orwellian automatons.
2
All leadership should come from the governed by their will alone.
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Probably as good of place to start a war as any. The Middle East is a little same old, same old at this point. Plus we have some solid war experience to call on in Asia, after all the good we accomplished in Korea and Viet Nam.
5
Yes, kind of like Illinois.
Hong Kong is one of the freest places on Earth. Not clear what kind of freedoms the marchers are demonstrating for. Is it the freedom to vandalise with impunity? Or maybe the freedom to hurl bricks at street cleaners, even though these can be lethal weapons? Or the freedom to set people who disagree with their views on fire?
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@Kristoffer Yes. Once people have experienced freedom they are determined to keep it and expand it. The CCP would rather go a different direction, and Taiwan is paying attention.
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Universal suffrage. Democracy.
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@Kristoffer
You still don't understand that they want o pick their own political leaders. That they want free speech. What is so hard to understand.
40
Democracy is the best guarantee of long-term stability. This is a problem, for authoritarians everywhere. To actually exist, democratic rights need to be exercised and defended. Thank you Hong Kong for your continuing example and reminder.
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@Jplydon57 Yes, and democracy is not only the best way to keep peace within a nation. It's also the best way to keep peace between nations.
22
As awesome as this sea of Sane humanity is, the fact that xi's water-Carrie'r authorized this protest suggests she and her boss feel completely unthreatened—and will continue to ramp up their evil and their control over a people that should never have suffered under that regime in the first place.
Tear gas ought to be banned from any non-military context. Police abuse of it has far overwhelmed its necessity, and one peaceful protester (or desperate border crosser) gassed is one too many. Once we re-Saneify our own government, we need to work with the UN and NGOs to relegate that weapon to a (lasting, and horrific) memory.
22
With the Chinese economy getting worse and the theft of Chinese assets at an all-time high by the Chinese Communist Party, it is only a matter of time that mainland China will follow the lead of our brave friends in Hong Kong. Remember the slogan “Winnie the Pooh and the CCP Must Go”
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These folks wont give and it's on the World stage. Cancer starts as a tiny spot and then you are done.
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At least they have a lot more freedom and democracy than Americans.
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@bobandholly
That's utter nonsense. We have the freedom to replace our leader every four years.
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@Austin Liberal And replaces your leader with a lunatic one that undoes the achievements of the previous leader every four years? My God, such a wonderful system you yanks have got there.
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@Austin Liberal Oh yes! Trump is such a buffoon.
I wonder how mainland China is reporting these protests?
I would think it hard to still say they are a bunch of fringe dissidents.
3
The People's Republic of China has no need to discuss the HK issue with its People. Not at all. There is neither a free press nor an open internet, in China.
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@Astasia Pagnoni
I know, but they have tried to describe the Hong Kong demonstrators as radicals and enemies of the State.
I am hoping the NYTimes will offer some details of how the demonstrations are being reported.
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@Gdnrbob
Yes that would be good. We know China blames outside forces - The Vote this month in Hongk Kong completely disproved that.
I believe China still continue this falsification.
4
We may need this pretty soon ...
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@GreystoneTX We've needed it every day for the last three years.
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@GreystoneTX
And we shall have it. The streets will fill. They are our example and inspiration in Hong Kong. Go baby!
4
I understand what the protesters want: "five key demands, not one less." I understand that one of them is almost impossible to achieve, namely the one that calls for a true universal vote for the Chief Executive.
But if the people can continue to protest peacefully, isn't that sort of what a democracy is? Democracy doesn't mean the government has to yield to the people's will.
In the US, there's a Moral Monday movement in North Carolina since 2013, which is roughly a weekly protest against the state government. Of course the state government has largely ignored it.
The current president won the office despite losing more than 3 million votes to his nearest competitor. Even if all 180 million people in red states demanded the Speaker of the House to step down or if all 140 million people in blue states demanded the Senator Majority Leader to step down, both offices can ignore them. In fact, neither the president, the speaker, nor the majority leader is elected by the people.
So even if the Hong Kong government never accedes to protesters' demands, but allow them to protest peacefully, isn't that kinda, sorta already democratic behavior?
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No, the freedom to scream into a void is definitely not democracy. Democracy, from the Greek roots of the word, means "self government". If the government ignores the will of the people, or uses artificial structures like electoral colleges to override the will of the people, then the country is not a democracy because the people do not have self-governance. I don't know why the concept of democracy is so hard for some people to understand. The freedom to protest is necessary for democracy, but in a true democracy you should not actually need to protest to change policy because self-governance should already give you all the power you would need. (in a true democracy, the only reason to protest would be to persuade your peers to join you, not to persuade oligarchs.)
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“Democracy” doesn’t come from the Greek root for “self-rule.” That would be “autocracy.” Democracy means rule by the “demos,” the people. And yes, the freedom to scream into the void is one of its most important features.
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@Gary "If the government ignores the will of the people, or uses artificial structures like electoral colleges to override the will of the people, then the country is not a democracy"
So... basically the current U.S administration which actually lost the election but continues to govern and even try to get re-elected, ignores people's voices on climate change and acts with impunity can be considered not a democracy?