The new plan looks exciting but let's hope the new construction will offer decent accommodations for people with disabilities.
This includes the installation of a hearing loop for the deaf and hard of hearing. If you want to know more about hearing loops, there's a good description on the Hearing Loss Association of America's website: https://www.hearingloss.org/hearing-help/technology/hat/hearing-loop-technology/. #HLAA.
So many of us with hearing loss (and there are more and more every day as the population ages) love music, but can no longer appreciate it. A hearing loop will let us have music again.
2
Half a billion dollars to rebuild a concert hall????????
If the Goal of this project is to "avoid past failures," then please learn from the past mistake of removing the pipe organ in 1976 (http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/DavidGeffenHall.html). Including a pipe organ will ensure the New York Philharmonic can compete on the same level as Philadelphia, Las Angeles, Nashville, Kansas City, and other orchestras with a pipe organ in their concert halls. The students and faculty at Julliard, the city of New York citizens, and music everywhere would be enriched with the New York Philharmonic's concert hall including a world class instrument. Julliard's own organ professor, Paul Jacobs, is the only organist to ever win a solo Grammy! Shouldn't the New York Philharmonic have an instrument worthy of "the best organist in the world" (a quote from an article during his recent trip to Nashville). Please invest in a pipe organ for the hall and for the people to enjoy!
It is interesting to note that Ms. Borda was involved with the Disney Hall which houses a world class pipe organ. Ms. Borda, why are the current plans for Geffen hall lacking a pipe organ?
1
And one more, very vital step is needed; for Mr. Geffen to make a truly noble gesture and allow the Hall to regain its sense of being a part of our city - renaming it Philharmonic Hall by David Geffen, for example.
Perhaps we could all reach out to Mr. Geffen for this intangible yet grand decision...?
3
In recent years, the NY Roman Catholic Archdiocese has been closing parishes, a number of them with existing pip organs, Most Holy Trinity in Yonkers had one that was recently restored. While somewhat underwhelming, it has a small footprint. Our Lady of Grace in the Bronx had one that was moved from upstate. The console was in some need of repairs, but the ranks sounded quite well. It was certainly be a lot less expensive to purchase a used pipe organ than to commission a new one.
As for programming, the orchestra has been active in commissioning new works. Why not new works with orchestra?
2
As a long-time subscriber to the Philharmonic, I'm happy the hall will finally (hopefully) get the renovation it deserves. But while necessary attention is paid to acoustics and design, I have a very basic request. I'm under 5 feet tall and hope the seats will be reconfigured so that I will be able to see the whole orchestra instead of being blocked by the person sitting in front of me.
3
What is the long-term economic outlook for the proposed plan? Will 500 fewer seats be an economic threat to the Philharmonic? And with 500 fewer seats will Geffen Hall be looked upon as less desirable to outside promoters looking for a venue for their presentations?
1
Perhaps they will perform Messiaen's Turangalia Symphonie when the work is done? I heard the LA Phil perform last January and the audience went wild with applause, bravoing and shouting for 15 minutes. It was thrilling. Not sure what was better the music or the venue?
Half a billion dollars. Imagining all the other ways that money could be spent to further advance the arts in NYC and beyond.
2
The acoustics in that hall never bothered me. What I don't like are those exhausting stairs, the tiny elevators, and equally tiny bathrooms. What are they doing about that?
2
Lovely. Too bad we don’t have the same enthusiasm and money for schools. Affordable housing. Better medical facilities. Things people NEED.
@Eileen Ryan who is to say what people need you? These are private funds not taxpayer money being spent to maintain them and improve them, these cultural institutions do attract people and are gems of this city. People do spend money, money that goes into the city coffers for the things you lament about. And as an aside they enjoy them and enriched by the experience.
5
@Eileen Ryan
To paraphrase an old saying, we do not live by bread alone. Perhaps YOU don't need the arts, but many of us would find life not worth living without them. The people of NY deserve to have both the necessities of life and those thing which make life worth living and there is no good reason why they can't have both. A decent home for your great orchestra and a decent place for your citizens to hear that orchestra will enrich the lives of millions of people for years to come. As the old song goes, give us bread and give us roses.
7
All the money in the world will not improve the study habits of a good proportion of young people, white and black. As for housing: Yes, we have a need for more middle-class and working-class homes in our urban areas particularly. But you'll never be able to build enough lower-income or no-income housing if people continue to have 4-6 kids whom they can't rear properly, who then can't deal with school and secure jobs, and who go on to do the same.
4
The rendering looks a great deal like Helzberg Hall in KC which has marvelous acoustics and at 1600+, feels very intimate.
3
Do we really have to call it David Geffen Hall?
2
We could refuse the $100 million and call it what we wish but doesn’t that defeat the purpose?
@Confused
I will call them Philharmonic Hall and New York State Theater until the day I die. It is disgusting that billionaires, who ripped off the country to make their money, now think we should honor them.
Not I, and many people I know.
3
And yet you'll accept their money so that you can go to concerts and ballets. I still call it Avery Fisher Hall, but then, Avery Fisher also donated money.
3
The new hall inside looks a lot like Kaufman Center in Kansas City.
1
I was an usher at Avery Fisher Hall in the 90s while I was studying music at Mannes College and could listen to each NYPhil program three or four times per week. It was the Masur era and the music was wonderful. But the sound was shockingly uneven depending on where I sat. Yes, we can argue about naming rights, programming and the need of a pipe organ, but we should not argue that the hall's interior must be redone ASAP to improve its awful acoustics. (By the way, the best sound in the current configuration, without doubt, is in the middle boxes on the second tier.)
4
And again, no pipe organ--even as halls around the world install them, the NYPhil continues to ignore this essential piece of so much orchestral literature. Sad.
9
How much will the 20% reduction in seating impact the availiability of access for student/low income attendees?
4
Oh God more blond wood. It's the ghost of Michael Graves come to haunt us. Well I work in the hall and frankly a fresh coat of paint would go a long way. Sending positive energy and a can of stain.
4
I hope accessibility is being taken into account by the architects and all involved. “The orchestra will be placed on stepped risers, so that back row percussionists will be as visible as the violinists up front, and a more steeply raked floor will also improve sightlines.” This is not promising. What about musicians who use wheelchairs or have other accessibility needs.
The majority of comments here are we we can't ever have nice things anymore. You'd think it would be good news that rich people are ponying up some money, just as they have done in the past, to improve and reinvigorate a valuable institution in this City.
Instead, all I see are armchair architects, complaints about the music programming, critiques that an artists rendering may or may not be politically correct, and criticism that (David) Geffen is doing this purely as a vanity project, all while praising (Andrew) Carnegie Hall without the slightest bit of self awareness or irony.
I think no one will be happy until the New York Philharmonic is reduced to playing free concerts in a high school auditorium for minimum wage, free snacks and handouts.
19
@Evan
By his death, Andrew Carnegie had given away all his money and, I assume, Totally paid for Carnegie Hall himself.
A modern hall with good acoustics should also include a re-planning of the program. How many times are we going to hear Tchaikovsky and the other safe Russians? Do we need to hear so much Mozart? Schoenberg's and Scriabin's music is more than 100 years old and still is not played as often as it should, why are they not performed more? The NY Phil just performed the safest of Scriabin's work, his piano concerto, what about his greater works? What about Webern, Stockhausen, Ligeti, Xenakis, Boulez, Nono, Berio, Messiaen? Their music is 70- 50 years old. Not to mention awarded contemporary composers like Kaija Saariaho and Rebecca Saunders.... The NY Phil should stop paying it safe and be more audacious, like other orchestras around the world.
1
Well, one still likes a good Brahms symphony, and the Elgar cello concerto -- .
4
Thought 1: Actually, incredulously, sounds and looks like a pretty good plan, as long as they don't put too many hopes into the renovated building being some kind of catalyst towards changing the trajectory of the zeitgeist of the symphony orchestra, which currently is rushing towards purely museum relevance, sadly.
Thought 2: There is something curiously satisfying about seats behind the stage. Maybe it gives the impression of an audience more "involved" in the music, but with that and a risored (on risers) percussion and brass, those behind will probably hear JUST them, as the strings, the heart of any orchestra, will be overwhelmed.
4
Sitting behind the stage for an orchestral concert, or even for a piano recital, as I recently learned at the Philharmonie in Paris, is very much less than ideal. For acoustical and other reasons.
Concerning the sound: the balances are way off for an orchestra, and when there’s a soloist he or she is much less audible than on the proper side of the stage. Also, but this is just personal preference, I don’t like seeing people behind the stage – I like to concentrate on the performers.
Finally, why can’t the house lights be as dark for concerts as they are for opera? A darker house really adds to the excitement of live performance, in my opinion.
3
This is welcome news, but a shiny new venue can't compensate for an uninteresting or "safe" program. I'm very envious of what the LA Phil is doing these days...
27
@rmannion
Yes, but the NY Phil is making progress. The more times they do pieces like Julia Wolfe's Fire in My Mouth that sell well and get critical and audience acclaim, the more such pieces they'll do.
8
Such an odd situation that Carnegie Hall, built in the 19th century, has always had acoustics far superior to the 20th century hall at Lincoln Center, despite its two incarnations as Philharmonic and then Avery Fisher halls. Third time a charm?
43
@David Rosen
Several other concert halls built around that time around the world had lousy acoustics as well. It wasn't a great era for this stuff.
3
@MWnyc One wonders why they don't build a shell like Carnegie Hall. The open plan is sure to all the sound to go all over the place except to your ears. Then they'll go back to the bandaids they have now.
1
@David Rosen Carnegie has it's own acoustic problems. Try sitting in the Dress Circle. The overhang kills the sound coming off the stage. The worst seats in Geffen don't sound this bad.
Perhaps the Philharmonic could use the construction period to tour the tri-state’s suburbs and offer local children’s concerts. Not all music lovers live in Manhattan.
56
@LIChef
And I'm sure not all NY Philharmonic attendees currently live in Manhattan, either.
7
@LIChef
That's a possibility I'm sure they'd like to consider, but I suspect there aren't many venues in the suburbs with a stage and backstage facilities large enough to handle an 80-to-100-piece orchestra.
4
@MWnyc Plus someone has to pay for it.
2
This all sounds very exciting and promising, however I think the NYPhil is missing an opportunity by not including a pipe organ in the renovation plans. All the major concert halls in the U.S. now have pipe organs, except for NYC. I was hoping this mistake would be corrected in the next iteration.
75
@Larry You are absolutely correct! A pipe organ should be a necessity in the new hall. I remember reading way back in the 1970s of a promise to reinstall a pipe organ in Avery Fisher Hall when the Aeolian-Skinner was removed. This new proposal seems to leave little or no room for a pipe organ. Why? Can the architect and/or Ms. Borda be attempting to signal to Philharmonic audiences that they should be heading up to Boston or down to Philly or D.C. to hear orchestras perform with pipe organ? Don't they believe New York audiences are worthy to have at least one large concert hall with a pipe organ?@Larry You are absolutely correct! A pipe organ should be a necessity in the new hall. I remember reading way back in the 1970s of a promise to reinstall a pipe organ in Avery Fisher Hall when the Aeolian-Skinner was removed. This new proposal seems to leave little or no room for a pipe organ. Why? Can the architect and/or Ms. Borda be attempting to signal to Philharmonic audiences that they should be heading up to Boston or down to Philly or D.C. to hear orchestras perform with pipe organ? Don't they believe New York audiences are worthy to have at least one large concert hall with a pipe organ?
3
@Larry
I'm very sympathetic to that argument, but pipe organs are very expensive, and the installation could potentially delay the reopening of the hall. Balance that with the fact that organs in orchestral venues sit unused for much of the time, and (as the Kimmel Center in Philadelphia found out) there's a limited audience for organ-only concerts to make more use of the instrument. So -- as much as I hate performances of organ-and-orchestra works with an electronic organ -- I can understand why the Phil and Lincoln Center don't consider it a high priority.
9
@MWnyc You do make fair points. Concert halls which have pipe organs usually don't predicate their installation or non-installation on number of uses the instrument might receive. I doubt anyone in Vienna, for example, would support removing the pipe organ from the Musikverein because it receives relatively infrequent use. The same might be said for Symphony Hall in Boston, or the concert halls in London, Paris, Berlin, or any number of other cities which have them. Instead, the presence, or non-presence, of pipe organs in those halls is more often than not based on the desire to have the 'real thing' as a resource for conductors, musicians, and presenters. Additionally, there is a weighty argument in favor of the uneven (not 'flat') surface behind and above the rear of the orchestra to break up and refract sound around stage and the concert hall to make clear what is either too muddy and distant or too bright. I've long believed a judicious installation of a pipe organ inside Geffen Hall was most of what was needed to improve its sound. Perhaps space can be provided for future installation of a pipe instrument in this new configuration.
3
Still won’t work right!!!!!!!!
As pictured, the orchestra space is much too confining. Did the musicians have an input? I doubt it. As well as an audience member being able to hear the music, the orchestra member does. If the focus is only on the acoustic and not on the orchestra, it will fail. Hint: go to ancient Greek theaters and find out how they managed sound. The direction you are going in is fine, but at least from the illustrated design, you have not gone far enough. I'm sure that the architects have heard of a parabola, because the design shows it, but they have traded off value to fulfilling seating requirements.
2
This hall was cursed from the start - a concrete bunker posing as a music hall, which genius star architect thought of that? And with Beranek leading the acoustics, it was dead before it started being built. All the gloss and lipstick won't help transform this beast. Best use case - monster truck arena.
And to think the city had originally planned to tear down Carnegie Hall when this monstrosity was built!
4
@Max duPont This is for all intents and purposes a new hall. The only thing left from 1962 is the shell of the building, and that won't affect the acoustics one way or the other.
5
@Max duPont
I remember, before the Hall opened, someone from Bolt, Beranek and Newman claiming they had had studied European concert halls, and that Philharmonic Hall would be perfect.
The problem was that they did Not copy European halls, which have lots of wood and very thick plaster walls. I hope they get it right this time.
1
The root cause of failures in hall design is the low priority of acoustic design. It's not about architecture, it's about ACOUSTICS! The author of this piece has fallen into the same trap -- I had to read nearly to the end of it to find the single mention of the word and the name of the acoustic consulting firm! And the author's failure is symptomatic of journalism's general failure in all matters involving science and technology.
5
This hall does not deserve the criticism the article suggests. I will appreciate not sitting sideways but really this seems like a VERY expensive ego project. What a waste of money that could be spent training artists to perform there.
1
So many “Debbie Downer” comments!
Why shouldn’t Geffen have his name on it? One hundred million is a tidy sum that he could’ve spent elsewhere. Is anyone bothered by the name Carnegie, the steel magnate? Or Koch, the oil magnate?
I think the new rendering looks wonderful, and I hope the acoustic is just as wonderful.
Jeez-Louise, can’t you folks be happy?
6
@David G "One hundred million is a tidy sum that he could’ve spent elsewhere."
Exactly! The hall already had a name. Geffen could have done something much more valuable with his money than slapping his name on a cultural venue to satisfy his vanity.
That’s right, it was named Avery Fisher Hall, who contributed a lot less (even adjusted for inflation), and had his name slapped on it for 30 years.
3
@David G As I seem to remember, yes, people were bothered by Andrew Carnegie putting his name on that hall. But as I recall, he did that so it wouldn't simply be called 'Music Hall', which in those days had a more salacious connotation. And the Koch's name on anything these days does have it, critics and detractors, whether deserved or not.
So..... the music?
Did I miss the discussion of music?
Was there mention on the musicians?
1
You didn’t miss anything — the article is about the architecture and design of the hall. If you want to know about music and musicians, read a review of a performance.
4
If you look closely at the architectural rendering of the hall in the top image, you see lots of concertgoers of different ethnicities and races watching the orchestra. Most appear to be young (no white hairs) and none are staring at their phones.
A utopian vision of a classical music concert? Stock animation? Perhaps, but it's a nice suggestion that the designers have future audiences on their minds.
7
@Brian A utopian vision might include us seeing an audience filled with, simply, people. No need to highlight race, age, etc.
If the suggestion is that today's Lincoln Center doesn't draw diverse audiences, that's another discussion.
2
A half a billion dollars? Really? The Hall is 'dowdy' and 'old fashioned'? By what standards? The acoustics are bad? By what standards?
I love classical music and have spent many wonderful evenings and afternoons in the Hall.
Will this become the next grand display of the wealth of the 1%? Wouldn't it be better to spend the money on the poor?
How about this? Make the Hall a matching program. For every dollar raised for housing for the poor, a dollar will be set aside for the Hall.
Shame that massive wealth should be spent on the habits of the rich; yes, I know that people of all incomes attend the Hall, but how about those ticket prices?. The half a billion dollars conjures up images of the Gilded Age in America and Victorian Englane with the rich being carried to and from the music halls in their carriages, never being forced to mingle with the poor outside on the streets.
Is that what we have become? Shame.
3
@Greg smith -- Next time you are in New York, try to take in a symphonic concert at Carnegie Hall. Then, perhaps, you will begin to understand why people regard the acoustics of Avery Fisher Hall to be rather poor.
3
@Mark Kessinger Thank you for the suggestion. I have only recently moved to Austin. I lived in and around NYC for 30 years and attended many concerts in many concert halls. I am sorry, but i do not recall experiencing a half a billion dollar difference between Fisher Hall and Carnegie Hall.
@Greg smith Spend it on the poor, so we can all descend to one level of misery. Why not have something exalted on our culturescape - to uplift and to encourage?
3
This resembles Koerner Hall in Toronto. The venue is known for its good acoustics. Heute design for concert hall?
1
A trip to St. Paul Minnesota for a visit to the Ordway Concert Hall, the gem that is the home of the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra, could provide an illustration of the intimacy New York seeks. It's a smaller hall (1085 seats) with acoustics that were ear-opening at the first SPCO performance there. The SPCO can provide some tips on audience building too. And, not that I would wish it for anyone, but the Minnesota Orchestra had the most fortuitous timing for a lockout a few years ago. It saved us from a season at the convention center during Orchestra Hall renovation. The MNO produced a sample concert for season ticket holders the year prior and the acoustics were so disastrous I was seriously rethinking my ticket purchase. Be very careful when choosing a home away from home during renovation.
3
@Diane R
There are many people who believe that the then-CEO and then-board chairman of the Minnesota Orchestra deliberately timed the lockout so that they wouldn't have to pay the orchestra while the hall was under construction.
"Fortuitous" is not the word I'd use.
The pictures I am seeing of Geffen Hall sure look different to what I have been accustomed to.
This hall was always an acoustic nightmare. Even listening to the live concerts by the New York Philharmonic as presented by radio station WQXR during the 1960s.
The sound in the hall is the worst I have heard in a concert hall. Mr. Avery Fisher, donated a few millions but the hall sound remained flat.
Hopefully something can be done to make the acoustic sound like what you will hear at Symphony Hall in Boston, Cleveland, and Philadephia.
3
Judging from the artist's rendering, the stage itself looks claustrophobic with some musicians backed right up against the walls. As someone who has played in major orchestras, I can tell you this is just plain bad. The design of a hall should start with creating a space where the performers are comfortable and feel no impediments to giving their best. When you feel constricted, it's a real challenge to overcome the angst associated with it -- even if that angst is subconscious. A tight space creates a psychological pall. It seems as though, once again, the architects and their champions were bound and determined to build monuments to themselves, rather than creating an environment conducive to great performances.
7
@JK Musikverein's stage is pretty tight. Lots of orchestras sound great there.
You note that Ms. Borda "returned to New York, largely in order to guide the renovation, after a 17-year run at the Los Angeles Philharmonic, which included opening its acclaimed Walt Disney Concert Hall." But you neglect to mention that the artist rendering of the new David Geffen Hall bears a striking resemblance to the interior of Disney Hall. It seems that Frank Gehry should get some credit for the Geffen Hall design.
3
This looks quite a bit like Koerner Hall here in Toronto. If it's anything like it it will be wonderful.
2
This is a horrible incompetent plan. It will not improve acoustics, it will ruin them. Another disaster. The hall is not that bad to begin with. Its main problem is the lack of decoration, so there is not enough reflection and evening of it. All they likely need to do is change the surface of the back wall of the stage to something fluted or many-angled, to make, say, flowers to be applied regularly to the fronts of the balconies. Adding some glass also helps. Simple, practical solutions not requiring millions of dollars. That's about digging into funder's pockets to keep them open, and keep the money from going elsewhere. Putting audience behind the orchestra is a disaster. A major distraction, sound absorption, and seats with really bad sound. Stop this at once.
9
Putting seats behind the orchestra is just a cynical way to add tickets without providing for good acoustics (you can't hear the soloists with the backs to you) or visuals (you get to watch the soloists' backs for the entire concert), because everybody -- every concertgoer, every acoustician, every orchestra management in the last 50 years -- knows that it is awful to sit behind the orchestra (unless you really enjoy having 2,000 people watch you scratch your nose).
The sound is so muffled and distant, one might as well sit outside the hall and have a drink.
10
Looks very similar to the MSO Concern Hall in Montreal.
1
The hall's worst problem for me is the seating in the side galleries, where you are forced to squirm and strain your neck to see the stage. And those seats are some of the most affordable ones. I would be sorry if that feature is to be retained, as the rendering suggests. Angling the chairs might help.
1
@John Fitzpatrick "The upper tiers will be rebuilt, and seats there will be directed toward the stage — not set at right angles, as they are now, which forces audience members to look sideways." -- from the article
10
The seating plan looks like an acoustic nightmare.
1
From the NYTimes on a previous renovation (1975) quoting conductor George Szell upon a first hearing in 1962:
In effect, Lincoln Center is following the advice of the late George Szell, who listened to the acoustics during tuning week in 1962. “Tear it down and start over,” the conductor said.
It only will have taken 60 years.
10
@MAKSQUIBS If they had built the hall as originally planned, they may not have this problem today.
1
A first look of this new hall reminds me of music hall in my county, Montgomery County, MD. The Strathmore Music Hall has a nearly exact layout and interior design. It's a wonderful facility with excellent views and acoustics. See for yourself https://www.strathmore.org/ Anyone else agree?
1
Half a billion for a world class symphony hall? That's nothing. In Indiana, our Governor announced spending that much on a world class hog barn on the state fair grounds. He has the money... $2.5 billion surplus. But Indiana has been dead last in teacher pay raises among the 50 states for the last ten years.
8
@Nancy
That's what Indiana gets for electing Republicans. Elect Mayor Pete governor for two terms and things might get better.
6
Interesting that David Geffen who pretty much resides in Los Angeles and/or on a boat donated $100M and Donald Trump who made his (VAST?!) fortune in New York hasn't donated a penny. Speaks volumes...
7
@MichaelT
Donald Trump **inherited** his fortune in New York. He blew most of it here and in Atlantic City.
6
"Ms. Tsien and Mr. Williams have designed high-profile projects including the Barnes Foundation museum in Philadelphia " UGH. Not a recommendation in my opinion.
"Dowdy, if not plain ugly."
Been to the Met lately?
2
Wasn’t this exact article was printed a few years ago in this paper, completion dates and all? I’ll believe it when I see it.
1
What's Geffen's tax write off on this?
Why not name it "Taxpayers' Hall"?
He might get a write-off, the way I do when I contribute to the organizations I favor, but he's still giving the money.
I assume you also give to charity. Do you get back what you give?
3
I have sat behind the orchestra in a concert hall with that kind of seating. It gives you a feeling of being outside the event, of watching someone else’s concert. Sitting in front of the orchestra with audience visible behind adds an unwelcome
element of people-watching to the music.
13
@Peter Billionaire Making the New York Philharmonic more like the Los Angeles Philharmonic is a huge mistake. More like the Boston Symphony Orchestra would make more sense, if anything. New York is a much more formal place, and the setting should remain formal, or be more formal. It needs, if anything, to be turned into a proper Beaux Arts interior with lots of decoration. That's the proper environment for classical music. The best halls I have ever heard orchestras in were old ones, and the Academy of Music in Philadelphia was the most memorable. With its velvet cushioning the sound, lots of reflecting decorations, chandeliers, I could hear every detail in the orchestra, the brass and percussion could not overwhelm any other instrument. That is how it should be. Orchestra Hall in Minneapolis is the complete opposite. The sound goes bouncing around, slamming against the walls and hanging in mid-air in a most unpleasant fashion. Acousticians think like sound engineers, trying to make halls sound like recordings. Wrong!
7
@Joshmo One of the main reasons classical music finds itself with dwindling audiences is the lingering formality of the old halls and the "us and them" lack of relationship between orchestra and patron. The Academy of music was lovely and quaint but the Kimmel center is epic and a far more sonically capable venue - just ask the musicians. As to the Beaux Arts style, not only is that long dead for its reliance on ornamentation for its own sake but it cannot be reproduced now at any cost because the craftsmen and suppliers simply don't exist. This new look is subtle, flowing, warm yet authentic. Bringing the audience closer to the musicians is vital to getting young people to connect to this great music.
2
@Joshmo
Most listeners who'd heard the Philadelphia Orchestra in other venues (for instance, Carnegie Hall or on tour) felt that the Academy of Music was a terrible place to hear it. It's very good as an opera house (which is what it was built to be) but not as a venue with an orchestra onstage.
1
Were not the great concert halls built for the ages? A third renovation is scheduled for the 64 year old home of one of the world's great orchestras! Shame on someone. Spend some of the money on bringing the greatest music of all time to the people of the City. There are auditoriums all over town with plenty of people the NY Philharmonic could enthrall. Who does Lincoln Center belong to anyway?
4
@Marvin Raps
Unfortunately, the only auditoriums in town that both are big enough (onstage and backstage) to handle an 80-to-100-piece orchestra and have decent acoustics -- Carnegie Hall and BAM -- already have full schedules and can't accommodate the NY Phil.
No point in putting the orchestra in other venues around town that would sound bad and can't hold the players.
And, since you ask, the owner of record of Lincoln Center is the City of New York.
1
I am very pleased to see them finally announce a plan. I've been a subscriber for the past 4-5 seasons as well as subscriber to Great Performers. During that time, I have seen performances ranging from great to massively disappointing, but the constants have been muddy sound, poor visibility and shabby, dirty-looking public spaces (carpet in the men's room - ugh).
Going to a concert should feel special and at present Geffen Hall has all the charm of a barn or high school gymnasium. It's possible for engaged musicians, an inspired conductor, a great work and an attentive audience overcome these shortcomings, but it's a bigger mountain to climb.
The new configuration looks quite similar to Disney Hall in LA, which I have visited on two occasions. Both times I felt drawn into the performance much more easily than in New York, and not just as a result of the music-making itself.
5
What's really wrong with this hall the way it is? It seems more than a little obscene to spend $500 million on a better concert venue when we have a shortage of available beds for homeless children on cold winter nights.
8
@Steve Agreed. This is an obscene amount of money. But. With so many absurd tax breaks for billionaires, real estate developers and financiers, the only hope NYC has is as a cultural destination. We need tourism, culture and the continuance of the highest level of artistry. Artists need a home and it’s a worthy endeavor to build such a facility to ensure continuity of our common artistic culture. Our country is being run by artistic caveman. If it was up to our propaganda bureau we’d be praying, listening and watching our cavemen leaders rather than experiencing art. We are witnessing the possible death of intellectualism as a meaningful force in America. Why not fight back?
21
@Steve -- The main problem has been the acoustics, and past efforts to address the hall's acoustics have mostly served merely to deaden the sound,not necessarily to improve it.
3
@Steve
A donor who wanted to spend that kind of money for beds for homeless children on cold winter nights would then (as we're seeing now in NYC) have to spend years fighting the people who live in whatever neighborhood the donor wanted to put the shelters in.
2
It’s pretty amazing that David Geffen is allegedly worth several billion yet doesn’t have enough money to fund the entire thing himself, despite his name being on the building.
39
I think we ought to be grateful that Geffen contributed $100 million. It’s a pretty tidy sum, and he easily could have spent it elsewhere.
8
@David G And he, in fact, did—the day after it was announced that the initial NYPhil renovation plans were scrapped, Geffen gave $150 million to LACMA.
3
Great concept, and I like the surround seating, though the seats do not looks as comfortable as in some other places. If you look at the Opera Bastille in Paris, the seats have much more legroom and have some head support. That makes it much easier to enjoy the show. However, I realize Lincoln Center has space limitations and that they need the seating to generate revenue. Still a shame they didn't find a way to make an evening at the Philharmonic more comfortable so the audience can focus on the music and not their aching body.
3
I wouldn't like to stare at musicians' backs.
3
Great, can someone now please step up and purchase our rainforests? Nice to have the hall but I’m a bit bummed to say the least our environment is toast. Maybe if we let one of our donors put their name on it?
7
@T
The donor that bought the rainforest would then have to pay for an enormous army of guards to protect it from ranchers sneaking in and burning it.
2
I always approach a concert at Carnegie Hall with a sense of joy. The hall itself never disappoints. How wonderful to attend a concert at David Geffen Hall with a similar lifting of spirit rather than the usual mild depression of hope I experience now. As they are based on a number of very successful renovations elsewhere, the plans for the new hall are promising. But true, large spirited philanthropy on Mr. Geffen's part would allow the hall to be named simply Philharmonic Hall. "Our" orchestra deserves it. Furthermore, doing so might encourage David H. Koch to entertain naming his tent across the way what it always should have been named: the George Balanchine Theater. That was its obvious purpose from the start - as made clear by Jasper Johns's insouciant placement of Merce Cunningham's foot in the upper right corner of his "Numbers", the large painting which graces the lobby just above the stairs. Johns famously suggested it would, if nothing else, be a way for Merce "to get his foot in the door."
16
@James Klosty you do know that David Koch is dead?
2
@James Klosty David Koch is not in a position to do what you have suggested. He died in August
2
@James Klosty Thank you for your excellent comment! I've been saying for ages that if I were ever to win the lottery, the first thing I would do would be to buy back the naming rights and change the name of the "Koch" Theater to the George Balanchine Theater. I would also love to see the Geffen revert to its original name of Philharmonic Hall. (Sort of a variation of form following function...)
2
Perhaps I missed this, but where would any choruses be located in the new design, should standard orchestral rep w/chorus be programmed?
I at least give management credit for being cautious and deliberate in timing this renovation. Love the fact that they're pushing stage further out. Dislike other aspects of the proposed, but will withhold judgement until renovations are complete.
4
@Laura A
Although the article doesn't state it, this is a direct copy of the gloriously successful Walt Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles. When the program involves a chorus (or the organ, in LA), those seats behind the orchestra are not available for sale. They serve as seats for the chorus when not performing, and terrific acoustics and great sightlines when the chorus stands to sing.
15
Unlike Disney Hall with its marvelous Rosales organ, a gift of the Toyota Motor Corporatipn, there are no plans for an organ. While there is an organ on campus it lacks the symphonic quality of recent installations in symphonic halls in Europe, Chiba, South Korea, Canada, etc.
2
@DR Who says it's a glorious success?
1
This plan looks great because what's always been needed is a gut job. Surround seating works wonderfully well in a properly built contemporary hall, of course it sounds "dull" in this hall. And it's a good thing we boomers won't be around as the orchestra will then be free to become a world-class purveyor of contemporary music again, rather than a stuffy old museum.
Believe me, I go to between 12 and 20 premieres of new music per season, and the audience is always both larger and younger. There's nothing dead or dying about our industry. Quite the opposite, it's thriving where regular series concerts include new music. (LA, for instance.) New York needs to get back in the saddle and a great hall will help.
13
I agree, David. Music Hall, in Cincinnati, had a major renovation four years ago. When the Cincinnati Symphony returned to their permanent, well-loved home, there was renewed energy in the orchestra as well as the audiences. And as for programming, it is not unusual to have pieces compsed within the last 50 years, many premiers, regional as well as North American and world premiers. Frequently the composers have been in attendance. We had premiers at the most recent Friday matinees we have attended, with a world premier of Christopher Rouse's Sixth Symphony. The Music Hall renovation was held up by the NY Times as a model for doing a renovation right, on time, and within budget.
6
@David F
"Believe me, I go to between 12 and 20 premieres of new music per season, and the audience is always both larger and younger. "
The more that organizations see that happen, the more of it they'll do.
LONG overdue. I stopped attending concerts there a few years ago after the armrest on my seat detached one evening. It will never be Boston’s Symphony Hall but let’s hope they come up with something decent.
8
I wonder whether the design team has visited Strathmore Hall in North Bethesda, Maryland. The acoustics are superb whether for a piano recital or Mahler's Ressurection Symphony, the sight lines are clean, and the excellent Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, which typically plays one concert from each series there, plays on risers. The hall is shoebox-shaped, with rounded edges everywhere.
8
@Ken Strathmore and almost every other decent recent concert hall was done by Bill Rawn. Everything in NYC costs a lot. This is a modest plan - desperately needed. My only issue with it is that it seeks to transform the interior into almost the identical interior that has been done dozens of times over. Fairly generic. Again, it's fine and it'll be an overall improvement - but your observation about acoustics and the shoebox shape. You are absolutely right but architects and orchestras reject this. They want the orchestra to be in-the-round now. It never sounds as good (you'll notice no one talks about the acoustics of Disney Hall) and who wants to sit next to or behind the timpani?
9
@Richard A lot of people want to sit next to or behind the timpani, and I am one of them. Sitting behind the orchestra gives a fascinating insight into the physicality of the music-making on stage, and a totally different perspective into how a composition is orchestrated.
Of course it's not ideal from a sound perspective, but there are lots of people who find it very engaging, which is why orchestras favor it so much. It's like being part of the orchestra. Plus, you get to see what the conductor is doing.
16
@willcwhite To each his/her own I suppose. I sat behind the percussion section when the NY Philharmonic visited as the first American orchestra to perform in the then-new "L'Addresse Symphonique", now the permanent concert hall home to the Orchestre Symphonique de Montreal. The NY Phil performed the Overture and Venusberg music from 'Tannhauser' and the Mahler Fifth Symphony. Most of what I heard was cymbals, tambourine, timpani, and bass drum. Yuck! That put me off sitting in those seats behind the orchestra. This configuration may be popular, but I'm not convinced it's a good one. Symphony Hall in Boston and Carnegie Hall are not 'surround seating' halls and their acoustics seem to be superb for all concerned. In my opinion, Geffen Hall needs a different outcome. But since no one is asking subscribers nor the general public, I suppose we'll have to be satisfied with what is being dished out.
1
The new rendering looks really quite nice. I hope it can be completed in a reasonable amount of time.
I’ve been attending the NYPhil since it was originally called Philharmonic Hall. The acoustic was pretty bad. One concert stands out — a Beethoven gala that ranged from loud-louder-loudest. It was unrelenting, and I’m sure Mehta and the orchestra didn’t intend it to be that way.
Carnegie, while venerable and wonderful, has one big drawback: the seats. Who are they designed for? I guess someone who’s 5”5’ and weighs 120 lbs. For anyone larger, it’s worse than an airline economy seat.
17
The seats in Carnegie Hall also force your knees to bend at an acute angle. I have no problems with my joints in everyday life, but I can’t sit through a concert there!
3
@David G your guess is spot on. As a 135 pound 5 foot 6er I have always found the seats just fine.
I have been to several Mostly Mozart concerts with the orchestra moved away from the back wall sounding-board, and surrounded with sound-soaking human beings, and it makes everything dull. And despite that experience, they're going to make this bad idea permanent. How come not Symphony Hall, nor Carnegie Hall, nor Powell Hall, have such a ludicrous arrangement, and yet the acoustics of all those are admired? Who cares how far one is from the orchestra, if the sound is good? And contrariwise, as Tweedledum says.
9
@Stoddard You should do a search on articles on this hall, to see the reasons that it has poor acoustics. Moving the orchestra forward is just a part of the equation, which also includes making the overall dimensions of the hall smaller (which is the reason for the loss of 500 seats) and changing the structure of the sidewalls so they create reflections instead of soaking up sound. What Mostly Mozart does is just one of these things.
You can't reform this hall into the other halls you mentioned without completely tearing it down and starting over, which isn't going to happen. By the way, when you are far from the orchestra in this hall, the orchestra loses most of its warmth and projection due to its construction, not the proximity of other people in the hall.
4
@JWinder
And it's an opinion widely shared (including by me) that this hall sounds better in the Mostly Mozart configuration than the regular-season configuration.
2
The Concertgebouw has seating behind the orchestra and the Musikverein has a balcony surrounding the stage as well as seats on the stage itself (most of the time). These two halls have some of the best accoustics in the world, so these kinds of arrangements can still work. Personally, I love the balcony seats close to the orchestra in the Musikverein - very intimate and great view of all the action.
My advice to any classical music organization would be to wait a decade to see if you still have an audience before undertaking major projects. We Boomers will not be around forever and there is seemingly no one to replace us. The previously sold out Met Opera is now down to about 80% occupancy.
An pipe organ would be a nice addition, though I do not know how often it would be used. Organs sound better in more reverberant spaces than concert halls.
A major gripe I have with the building for years is the slick terrazzo pavement outside the front doors. These must be covered with rubber mats at the first hint of moisture to avoid injuries.
25
@David 23 year old here who was at the NY Philharmonic this weekend. I know plenty of contemporaries who have either been or plan to go. Maybe instead of "waiting," they can reach out more to younger generations. I doubt boomers showed much interest in classical music before they got older, as will certainly happen with millennials.
5
@David
A great idea! Let's shut them all down now and replace the Lincoln Center buildings with the most awesome Starbucks and Verizon stores that have ever been built? BTW, 80% capacity is something that any performing arts organization would be happy to have today.
4
@Yossarian
"I doubt boomers showed much interest in classical music before they got older..." Well, this aging boomer started going to concerts at Philharmonic Hall while I was in college, the year it opened.
9
I never had the ear to complain about or appreciate the sound quality but the hall has always been ugly. While sitting closer to the performers may be a benefit, in these types of settings, particularly when the activity level of the performers is low, looking at other audience members is distracting.
14
As an occasional out-of-town visitor to Geffen Hall & the NY Phil, the irony is that I've found that the best sound in the hall is actually the farthest away, in the back top of the balcony. The October NY Phil 'Also sprach Zarathustra' with Susanna Malkki sounded spectacular from the back of the top balcony, as did the LA Phil 'Rite of Spring' last Monday. So for orchestra sound aficionados, distance and height lend enchantment in Geffen Hall.
BTW, memo to Mr. Geffen on "New York deserves a great concert hall": uh, NYC does have such a hall, namely Carnegie Hall.
For the disruption with the construction, Ms. Borda and the NY Phil might want to take some lessons in how the London Philharmonic handled being out of the Royal Festival Hall during those renovations. This might be an opportunity to give concerts of smaller, more off-beat works in more intimate venues. But it will be a challenge to get the word out about different places to play. At least this announcement gives enough advance time to plan things out in that way.
22
@The Other George W. Re the best sounds, I also think they are in the distant seats, but I will also sit closer at times, the better to see the action.
3
@The Other George W. Best (orchestral) blended sound is in the balcony for many (most?) halls. Ventilation and visibility issues may keep the price down, but I've always prefer the balcony.
6
@The Other George W. I agree with the height part of the equation, but not the distance one. So much is lost from the nonreflecting side walls of this hall. You never are given the feeling of immediacy that you get from Symphony Hall in Boston (or Carnegie Hall to a lesser degree) when you sit far back in the hall. I always opt for one of the tiers in boxes near the stage in Geffen Hall; string and woodwind sounds tend to project up, and you are still far enough away to get a blend in the second and third tiers.
3
Well one thing is certain. The sound in that space has always been awful. Hopefully the renovation will improve it. The NYP is a world class orchestra and they and their audience deserve to be able to hear them properly.
14
Listened to a lot of great music in the old Avery Fisher Hall 45 years ago from the cheap seats. Hopefully ambience hasn't replaced good programs.
3
@Fred
Ambience and good programs are not mutually exclusive. Ideally you should have both.
5
@Fred
While I have no doubt you posses fine memories of past visits to Avery Fisher Hall, the reality is that neither the original nor the first renovation ever had great acoustics. The flat sound and "dead" zones that existed negated the very purpose of the venue.
One can only hope this time around they'll actually produce a hall with acoustics capable of making it a venue worth patronizing.
12
Please!
100 million gets you naming rights?
How tawdry and cheap!
How about NY Philharmonic?
36
@Richard Marcley
Agreed. What a shame the late Mr. Koch didn't have the generosity to have the New York State Theater renamed the "George Balanchine Theater."
4
@Richard Marcley Who cares who the hall is named after? Is the name "Geffen Hall" going to prevent you from attending a performance? Are you also outraged by the fact that Carnegie Hall was named after Andrew Carnegie because he put up the money for it? Didn't think so.
6
When I donate my next $100 million, I want the hall to be named after me, too.
2
What's not to like?
Seems like Geffen had the designers "channel" Ghery! This proposed renovation has many of the earmarks of Disney Hall in LA except for a lack of that venue's iconic organ.
Now one can only hope that the new Geffen Hall has the same great acoustics as its LA inspiration.....
4
@George Similar designs have been used in a number of Hall's in the last 30 years, including the recent Philharmonie de Paris.
1
@NorCal Girl I was recently at the Philharmonie de Paris. Acoustics were good, but the design was not good for audience members with mobility issues.
2
@NorCal Girl And the Philharmonie sounds great
Wonderful improvements that ought please the faithful audience.
1
money pit sorry to say
10
Exciting news-looking forward to the new hall! The article skims lightly over two important aspects: the financial aspects of the NYP after 500 seats are removed, and the acoustics of the hall with the new seats configuration, particularly for the rows behind the percussion section of the orchestra. One hopes both of these are adequately addressed.
9
@Peter Wohl Supposedly, some acousticians feel that 2200 should be the upper limit of how big a hall should be. If the renovation is successful, it'll perhaps entice more orchestras to perform there on tour, making up the lost revenue.
As a music lover, it sounds wonderful and I hope it actually happens this time. I am concerned about the second closing to finish the construction, it is hard to imagine Lincoln Center without the New York Philharmonic. Carnegie Hall and City Center were both mentioned as alternatives but they regularly have busy calendars, the former with a tremendous variety of (mostly) classical programs and the latter with their popular Encore and dance programs and it would be a shame to lose any of those performances. It will be interesting for sure!
6
@David There's always The Shed. /s
1