“The reason why Xi Jinping doesn’t want to be associated with our lovely Pooh is because Xi renounces Western values,” Christopher Robin said.
“Not true,” said Piglet. “Didn’t Xi Jinping send his daughter to Harvard?”
“You can learn Core Socialistic Values at Harvard, can’t you?” asked Owl. “Students learn about democracy, civility, freedom, equality, justice, the rule of law in America, don’t they?”
“What does that have to do with Xi Jinping’s core socialistic values?” asked Piglet.
“mmm…” Christopher Robin paused before clarifying it, “Well, that’s how Xi Jinping defines his socialistic core values for China.”
“I see,” Pooh sighed.
“No wonder so many Mainland Chinese students come to America to study,” Eeyore rolled his eyes.
“360,000 last year!” Tigger the Tiger said. “I bet they were mandated to do independent studies about socialistic path with Chinese characteristics.”
“I think it’s called The Road to Rejuvenation.” Christopher Robin has read The Governance of China, so he believes he got the gist of it.
“What does it mean by forge ahead like a gigantic ship breaking through strong winds and heavy waves?” Eeyore asked as he read Xi’s book.
“Who knows?” Pooh said, like nothing is concerning. “You can’t stop a person from dreaming about silly things like taking over the world.”
“We should see about that,” an American said.
10
Excellent writing, always enjoy your columns, wish you would also write about India's fast increasing tilt towards Hindu nationalism, mistreatment of minorities including Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and Dalits, even lynchings, and most of all state aggression in Kashmir, its like a huge prison devoid of basic rights for more than 2 months but no condemnation from west, on the contrary Indian PM Modi who is the product of RSS is given rock star treatment in US. Just because its a huge billion plus consumers market is good for corporate greed we are willing to look the other way.
4
XI looks at Hong Kong confirms his suspicion Communism conflicts with Democratic values in far too many fundamental ways. Thought control censorship part of the fabric of life in China.
2
I much enjoyed this but was hoping to see some mention of the two Canadians sitting for months in prison as retaliation for Canada-US legal cooperation... and the trade embargo that China slapped on Canadian pork and soybeans. Unfortunately I get the impression that Trump may be using this US extradition request as a hardball bargaining chip... and Canada is being shafted as a result. It would help if neighbours and allies worked together to deter Chinese bully tactics... instead of pursuing single nation trade agreements...why no mention of this in the article?
3
Xi Jinping must not be totally terrified of free speech in the United States. He sent his only child, a daughter , to study at Harvard between 2010 and 2014.She has returned to Beijing but was certainly acquainted with the freedoms Americans enjoy during her college years.
3
One great misconception of the American public is that "communism" is bad -- pointing to China and the former USSR. But neither was/is a communist system. They only use the tag to shield their authoritarian ways. They could use "socialist" or "capitalist," and it would make no difference. What it is closest to is a dictatorial, fascist regime.
4
I’m afraid the Pooh Bear ship has already sailed. It’s only a matter of time before World War III starts in the South China Sea.
1
I keep wondering how long we have to endure these "mad at China" Op-Ed pieces?
They all seem to arise from some self-appointed role as the arrogant scold telling China it has to be more "Western".
As if you tell an Eastern civilization with thousands of years of history that it should toss everything aside and adopt what is to it a totally alien social belief system!
This isn't studied political analysis, it's a constant stream of angry diatribes because the Chinese have the nerve to think for themselves.
Really, do Mr. Kristof and other NYT Op-Ed columnists really think the Chinese will buckle down and tow the Western line because they say so? Almost every day now we read some Op-Ed anti-China diatribe.
Enough.
1
Once again, thank you, Nicholas Kristof!
I don't know, if the U.S. is supposed to be the example of the value and strength of free speech, I don't completely blame the Chinese government for being fearful of it. Yes it is over-reacting and suppressing human rights, but our own society is broadcasting the weakness and immorality of everything goes.
The only tools with which US citizens have to hold China accountable are their individual actions, either to boycott Chinese companies and products or those American companies who continue to aid and abet China. Our government has long had shaky moral grounds in which to criticize China and under a Trump administration any US criticism is simply laughable.
3
China, only recently and slightly opened, should have lots of help to STAY open - for the sake of its people- and the world.
CONNECTIVITY is the key.
Unfortunately, I think it's too late.
If some character in the Hundred Acre Wood happened to look like Trump and was co opted by the anti-Trumpers I'm sure there would be regular tweets from the White House calling for a boycott of everything ever written by A A Milne.
3
Actually, Mr, Kristof, China does embrace freedom of speech as long as the comment agrees with them. Anything else especially those that in their minds quarrel with their views, then their feelings are hurt and that is not a good thing.
Internet circumvention technology, if we do this for the Chinese, we should do it for every nationality that has restricted Internet access. I don't think we should go there.
1
Citing a few statistics about infant mortality or the quality of public education is like citing the improved status of women and rapid industrialization in Stalin's Soviet Union. China's achievements came at the cost of the deaths of 70 million people, terrible upheaval in the lives of many millions more, and authoritarianism and suppression for all. This isn't a reason to anathematize China, but nor should Mr. Kristoff gloss over the fact that this is not a healthy society in any sense of the term.
10
Pooh looks more like Trump.
The Chinese leadership is pathetically paranoid. They are in control now. How long will they hold on is the big question. As many chinese get wealthier, government authority will wane. The young Commies will blow out the Xi’s of China and change the politics away from the suffocating strait jacket of Mao communism to a more tolerant version just short of democracy.
1
Excellent article.
However: “When the N.B.A. moved into China in the early 2000s, it made a plausible argument that engagement would help extend our values to China.”
It was not plausible then; it was (and is) wishful thinking that ignores one of the essences of the Chinese régime.
American Administrations also made the “extend our values” argument to ‘justify’ admitting China to the World Trade Organization. A variant was one of the sketchy ‘justifications’ advanced in favor of the nuclear deal with Iran. In neither case has the régime changed its essential spots.
This is not to advocate confrontational policies. Rather, it is a warning that clear-eyed, realistic assessments of adversaries ought to guide American foreign policies and the agreements the US enters into.
3
Winnie the Pooh said such nefarious things as "Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, stronger than you seem and smarter than you think."
It is small wonder that China - and the NBA - would want to distance themselves from such radical ideas.
23
Apparently,China already owns the companies that own the "big data" on all of us. We should already be very afraid.
1
In 2016, in an effort to avoid offending Chinese markets, Disney cast Tilda Swinton as Doctor Strange's mentor the Ancient One, instead of hiring a Tibetan which would be true to the comic book character. Enough.
8
I hope the world will stop using ambivalence as an excuse to tolerate mass indoctrination and conformity by violent force. We only see Chinese Mainlanders proudly singing the anthem and waving the red flags because dissidents are silenced and purged. Jack Ma, Pony Ma and Liu Chuanzhi know better when they stepped down from giant companies they built. Personal power and popularity made successful entrepreneurs in China targets of the Communist Party. Regular citizens know the consequence of speaking up. The blacklisted are denied welfare, healthcare, employment, even the rights to buy train tickets under the massive social credit system the government uses to scrutinize and suppress those who dare to speak up. Why do China need billions of surveillance cameras to monitor the people? Because of Xi Jinping’s hideous fear of coup. Look closer, millions of ethnic minorities are kept in indoctrination camps. The children in Hong Kong are using their bodies to take the bullets in their fight to preserve their identity and freedoms. They are not threatening the sovereignty. Hong Kongers just want to have a fair election system and keep their way of live they have enjoyed for 150 years under the British rule. Instead of serving the people's interests, HK police was given draconian power to terrorize the people. Now, this authoritarian regime is starting to silence and punish Americans using their economic might. Soon enough, China's aggression will make 1984 a reality.
12
As long as we, the United States, count money as the most important thing in existence, we will in effect be able to stand for nothing. We had a nice country once. It's a pity what happened to it.
7
Well, Mr. Kristoff, we do not have open access to scientific papers in this country--USA. Tax-paying citizens who want to read scientific articles on climate crisis, stem cell research, ocean acidification, genetic experiments, physics, biology etc etc etc must pay dearly for see the research they likely helped fund or else seek some round-about path to the information. So I would like to see a freer flow of information right here.
3
You can add Apple, Mr. Kristoff. They took an app off the AppStore today that the Chinese didn't like. Google did something similar. What I don't get is that everyone in Silicon Valley is supposed to be so liberal. I guess they are until it affects their stock price.
9
Hong Kong’s earthshaking leaderless civil movement is entering its seven months since the extradition bill was introduced in February, with thousands taking to the street on March 31, marking the first massive protest. Though, looking back further, the civil movement really started since the Occupy Central, in which Hong Kong’s main financial district was occupied from October, 2011 to September, 2012. Then the 79-days Umbrella Movement sprang to life because of a group of young student leaders.
It has been 8 years since Hong Kongers started to resist Communist’s intrusion of their way of life, which is a blend of western and eastern culture, completely the opposite of what the Chinese Mainlanders are allowed to have under the Communist Government. To have their outcries ignored by the government for 8 years justifies Hong Kongers' boiling anger, why they are united in resisting—despite all the teargassing, beating, bullets and persecutions. Look at the Lennon walls all over the city with billions of grievances they shared. Look at the human chain the children and elders created to express their solidarity, even with the tall Lion Rock Mountain in their way. The civil movement in Hong Kong is driven by raw fear of China’s claws. However powerful China is, it can never win Hong Kongers’ love, but it certainly can silence them, as we can see what is happening in America. It’s time for people from the free world to unite and say enough is enough to this authoritarian regime.
5
It's far too late to do anything about this. The alarms should have rang loud two decades ago. It's far too late.
3
All they need to say is, and probably are, "we may have our problems, but Americans have no respect for human life. They're just over there killing each other and themselves with their guns - 40,000 gun deaths in 2018. So banning a stuffed animal isn't so bad." If I were Chinese, or any other country that the US criticizes for any type of human rights abuse, that's what I would be saying. Indian genocide, check. 200 years of slavery, check. Little children slaughtered in schools with no laws to protect them, check. Resurgence of fascism, check. That's what I would be saying if I were them.
15
@Hugh
And, yes, they would be absolutely right to say all that. Nevertheless, I would much rather take my chances here than in China
11
It is interesting to observe in this timely and well written essay that we have our own leader here who lambasts his favorite media when that media reports a poll that does not confirm his great wisdom in all things. Getting a bit too close to censorship for my tastes. Next, will Orange be banned as a color? Nothing rhymes with it, so poets may not mind much.
1
All religions are false, so I applaud China’s efforts to rid China of all religions from Catholic, Muslim, etc.
It is a pity that the NYT, PBS, and other liberal media have joined Don Trump’s efforts to reorient American attitudes toward foreign countries from friendship to hatred. Hatred leads to recessions, depressions, and wars.
1
Miranda Divine's piece on this in the NY Post put it best when she wrote "woke capitalism is a sick con job".
2
Very good ideas that will, unfortunately, have to wait until there is someone in the White House who actually is stable and wise enough to seek out help in the enterprise.
What we have now is a buffoon who is getting played like a cheap fiddle by Xi while he gives Europe and the Middle East away to Putin.
Our morality has been reduced to scraping the barrel for monetary benefit: It seems that there is no depth below which American corporations won’t go. Sad to say, it’s curtains for whatever leadership we used to provide, and the hope for the world, the light to which people turned, has been extinguished by a flood of greed.
I can't wait to see if the NBA tries to put a gag order on players to shut up over China. Good luck with that even though most players couldn't tell you much about China in the first place. No one likes to be told what to do or what you can or can't say. The NBA wants a big presence in China? That means a lot more money for the owners who had better be ready to pay players a whole lot more money if they get into China. If the players start doubling or tripling their salaries they'll be studying Mandarin after games.
1
Let's not give too much credit to Xi for the Chinese education system or its economy. The fascist regimes in Germany and Italy in the 30s improved the lot of the average citizen, and "made the trains run on time." But that was all irrelevant compared to the harm caused by their misbegotten ideology. The same applies to China today.
8
Nicholas Kristof again protests too much, and this time toward a like philosophical mindset. Apparently, a fan of the soft and cuddly Winnie the Pooh, Kristof bares ill will toward President Xi while concurrently falling in line with ninety percent of the Chinese President’s ideology of a planned society controlled by one oppressive political ideology. Watching intently as the NBA, Mercedes, and other western franchises bow to Xi, Kristof leans right to keep the bear on shelves all around the globe. Go figure.
1
I am no fan of Mr. Xi. The new face recognition surveillance system in China is gradually stepping into the mode of the Orwellian world probably worst than "1984".
That being said, its easy to criticize China for its human right record and heavy hands in everything that is state controlled and unfair trade practices. But the matter of fact is that China has more than 1.4B people and the last 30 years, with state controlled planning, it has lift so many millions, if not a billion people out of poverty, and mind you, everywhere you go in China, even in the base of Himalaya and remote villages, there are strong cell phone signal! I can't even get a bar at Harriman Park! So give some credit to the Chinese regime.
Our democracy elected a buffoon, and sowing divisiveness and hates and intolerance, perhaps its also time for the US to do some self reflection here... its unfortunate that we have elected such incompetent, egoistic and opportunistic profiteer like Trump to deal with the complexity of world issues...
Mr. Kristof, you of all people should realize that societies differ, and that America's is the most different of all. It's wrong to try to impose your particular customs on another country, one where people are generally well and happy. I know it's hard to live in your social milieu without taking on local attitudes, but give your head a shake.
The talk of "bullying" is ridiculous. This is about courtesy and respect, virtues that American society seems to be losing. Does America prefer lying braggarts?
And since when is it our right to "chip away at Chinese nationalism"? "I'm sorry, you must not feel patriotic toward your own country. Only Americans have that right. We will keep insulting you verbally and attacking you economically and militarily until you agree." Chinese people have to exorcise the century and a half of victimization their country has suffered, and this is the worst possible policy for helping them do that peacefully.
1
China cheats.
If we had the trillions back that China stole, our schools would be great too.
China the cheater.
But they still have not had one single new idea.
Where is the Chinese vaccine for polio?
Where it the Chinese moon landing?
Everything China has, they stole.
That is why they have no new ideas coming out of China.
And they never will — because they oppress their own people.
What would be the point of making a new idea in China — to give it to the oligarchs? To Xi and his billionaire buddies?
To invent, smart people in China move to America.
6
US foreign policy is simply about money. That is why a crown prince can order a journalist to be cut up and get away with it. It is all about money, businesses in this country do not care about people, otherwise they would treat their own citizens and employees better. Look at Boeing, it took a sharp drop in their stock price for them to begin to look into the 737 Max. Money, money, money.
2
Perhaps we should more carefully define appeasement for the age of information. It's not just about granting a bully geographic territory any more.
There is at least one other thing we could do; we as concerned, committed individuals; individuals not subject to economic pressure: Hold weekly demonstrations outside Chinese consulates and embassies throughout the Western world, each highlighting one of China's abuses; then reading from, say, the UN Declaration of Human Rights, *and concluding with repeated cries of "For shame, China*! Invite the press; paper, television, and internet! Make the demonstrations a "cool" thing to do. Watch them spread from city to city. Shame is a primal, primary motivating factor in Chinese culture. Repeated, televised shaming *will* make an impact on China's actions.
4
Nicholas Kristof declares that he loves China, and he seems to hold no punches in excoriating Xi and the CCP. I'll take the bait: given China's history and contemporary challenges, how do you propose that China makes a transition to a liberal democracy without falling apart at the seams? I would argue that until China develops a middle-class that's confident enough to reject CCP rule with a thick and dense civil society that can manage economic, social, and political affairs outside of the state, China is stuck with the CCP. The Chinese economy is already at this stage, but who in their right mind thinks that China could peacefully deal with Tibet and Xinjiang, Hong Kong and Taiwan, Falun Gong, and the South Pacific without the country and the region degenerating into massive violence and civil war? Is Nicholas Kristof willing to bet his life that without the CCP that the country would not tear itself apart over just one of these issues? The big task at hand is not to embarrass the Chinese government but stitch this immense and diverse nation evermore together by strengthening the institutional capacity of the country outside of the state so that Chinese citizens no longer need the party. We will know when that time comes because the Chinese people themselves will express their will. I have full faith in the Chinese people. As we've seen in Afghanistan to Zaire, we--even Americans with our "stable genius" in the White House--cannot IMPOSE democracies, they happen.
To corporations, money is more important that integrity. No one will stand up to Chinese bullying as long as they have a market to protect.
5
"that China has established new universities at a rate of one a week and that Shanghai’s public schools put our own school systems to shame."
Hasn't stopped Chinese students from flooding into American universities, esp. those in California.
6
What is the value of opening "new universities at a rate of one a week" or "public schools put our own school systems to shame" if the information being put forth in these institutions is censored and shaped by the dictators in charge? Are the students really getting an education or is this just a way to get more cogs in the propaganda machine?
8
At this point, I would be happier if the U.S. got its own house in order in terms of removing corruption within our own White House and solving the problems of propaganda and disinformation, poor healthcare outcomes, gun and domestic violence, income and wealth inequality, shoring up workers’ rights and wages, and protecting and restoring the environment, to name a few. We need to strengthen our own moral standing before we can become the arbiter of free and forward thinking that Kristof describes.
4
@Linda Mahal Why? Easier to have enlightened values and consistently apply them - surely?
1
It seems to me that for a good many reasons an attitude of reservation is warranted in all political arenas, national and international. Allies don't always act admirably, adversaries are usually not the utter fiends we imagine, and, most uncomfortably, we are not infrequently disloyal to our own highest ethical commitments. On many occasions, including the incident with the Rockets, our fears of loss of revenue (what some might justifiably call "greed") trump our commitment to liberty and dignity. So, yes, we do need to "to hold at least two contradictory ideas [about China]," but I think we are similarly obligated to assume the same attitude towards ourselves. China will have no purchase on our sovereignty -- moral, economic, political - when we are clearer about our own values. On a slightly different note, the Chinese government's 996 policy doesn't seem much different from Stalin's 5-year plans for industrialization, and it is arguably this 996 policy and the indoctrination and physical coercion necessary to enforce it that have "lifted" so many Chinese out of poverty. With good reason, we didn't approve of Stalin's methods. What, then, justifies our commendation of the Chinese government on this matter?
2
CHINA IS NOT A GOOD NEIGHBOR AND MUST BE TAUGHT A STERN LESSON.We can ban CHINA AIRLINES CATHAY AIRLINES all CULTURAL CONTACTS SPORTS CONTACTS EDUCATIONAL AND SCIENTIFIC CONTACTS BANKING CONTACTS BAN CHINA FROM OUR COMMODITIES MARKETS. We can build bases for JAPAN in the SOUTH CHINA SEA to counter CHINA. We can put a large tariff on flights to and from CHINA We can use time honored sanctions like cutting the number of Chinese embassies and consulates and the size of their staffs. We can fine China and its businesses if we find evidence of intellectual property theft ban news broadcasts from CHINA.
6
We have a couple of friends that visited China for the first time about 25 years ago, and they import X Ray scanners made in China. They say that the quality of the machines is by far better now. They have visited several cities and according to them there are more beauty than before both in the buildings and in the clothes they wear. More nice cars, more money to travel and many IPhones are seen everyday. Therefore it's very difficult to understand why they don' t accept freedom of speech. We can understand why Maduro and the Castros need to control freedom of speech, because their countries are in poor shape, but why China, if now they have an economic miracle? Why? Because lack of freedom is in the DNA of communists.
3
"But let’s also note that China has helped lift more people out of poverty more quickly than any nation in history. "
Oh, really? And who put them into poverty? Western world? Remember the great leap forward, cultural revolution, and such? I do agree that the current communists are very effective but it was Chinese communists too who nearly destroyed their own folk, which is badly missing from this hodgepodge narrative.
10
@ss Yes, the western world put them in poverty. Read your history. Opium Wars, Treaty Ports, etc.
"But let’s also note that China has helped lift more people out of poverty more quickly than any nation in history. "
Oh, really? And who put them into poverty? Western world? Remember the great leap forward, cultural revolution, and such? I do agree that the current communists are very effective but it was Chinese communists too who nearly destroyed their own folk, which is badly missing from this hodgepodge narrative.
3
Like Farhad Manjoo's article, this tells it all. We've lost our virginity now. We suck up to the bad guy.
2
Mr. Kristof,
This op-ed is so on the money I have tears in my eyes. Your clear-eyed insistence upon acknowledging the unprecedented human uplift accomplished by the PRC in my lifetime (I was born in late-1975) is critical to resolving the tough nut of reconciling the contradictions in the west's relationship with Beijing. Your assertion that, "With China, it’s always helpful to hold at least two contradictory ideas in our heads at the same time," is crucial here. Indeed, simply living in the world day by day requires us to perform numerous such quiescent contradictions and recognizing this can go a long way toward solving other knotty problems. Keats called it "negative capability" and it's what allows us to thrive.
In the west, we have done the hard work of demonstrating that a society that permits its members to question and challenge our shared assumptions is always stronger than one that stifles dissent. This is why it is so critical that commercial interests engaged with China stand firm for these values now, because without them they would never be in a position to rake in renminbi. At the same time, refusing to acknowledge the miraculous all-but overnight transformation of a peasant nation into a vibrant bourgeois industrial powerhouse means we will assume that Chinese patriotism is false or coerced. As long as we operate from such an assumption, we will never succeed in defending what we've built and learning to truly live with China in a global community.
Well, Mr. Kristof, your argument about censorship falls apart when you consider the condition of Hong Kong who with open access to the West is in shambles. As for WTO action, the last I looked, the U.S. does not support the WTO, yet China does. Oh, the real kicker is the corruption investigation into the Xi family. How about using U.S. intelligence resources to look into the corruption of the Trump family? And examining the power of lies and propaganda, let's not forget the power of Fox News Entertainment in poisoning our own well.
3
This unblemished perspective is more than welcome, as is the notion that "with China it’s always helpful to hold at least two contradictory ideas in our heads at the same time."
I know. It's the internet. I could be a dog. As it happens, I read the language better than I speak it, and spent several years working as a director in East Asia.
When I went to China for the first time, it was almost impossible to find a restaurant in Shanghai. Imagine that.
Even today I usually encounter folks who are at the extremes. Either they love everything about China and believe it can do no wrong, or they despise everything about it.
I personally believe we cannot afford to allow China to censor what we do here. And we cannot afford to let them pressure us into self-censorship.
As for Hong Kong, the natives are brilliant, warm, hard working and wonderful. They value the things we value: the rule of law, an independent judiciary, and the right to elect their own leaders as spelled out in the 1997 accord.
We must stand up for the protestors. That effort however will require realism, sophistication, knowledge, experience. I'm afraid the present bunch could never accomplish it. A successful effort along those lines would be like, as I once read, frying a very small fish.
I was in Hong Kong during an earlier protest--against Beijing's plan to remove Cantonese from public news sources. A typhoon arrived at that same time. Every single electronic item that I had with me was ruined.
4
Fun column. Who cared about this before President Xi banned Pooh, anyway?
But let's talk about this. Shinzo Abe got Eeyore. Obama got Hobbes. Mitch McConnell got Toby the Turtle (or really any turtle), and Trump got Heat Mizer. Xi could have gotten far worse than he did. It was fun thinking of all the characters that could have been pressed into service.
Thanks Mr. Kristof.
2
Thank you for this thoughtful article. I've heard that China has businesses in the US developing AI. I think allowing these businesses, and the purchase of capital and real property, presents another issue worth investigating. There's no need to give away the farm and we haven't been paying attention to the long game due to incompetence at home.
3
Mr. Kristof is correct - we need to do more to stand up to China and their attempt to bully the rest of the world into propping up their totalitarian ideals. Yes, their markets are important - but manufacturing "stuff" for the rest of the world is important to their economy as well. We haven't played hardball, and we haven't worked with our Allies (if we have any left that is) to come up with a united way to confront China on this issue. We have been cowed because of the greed of Corporations - and our own desire to pay much less for consumer goods-allowed supply chains to shift to China. It's time to make it crystal clear that individuals have the right to speak out on issues here -Corporations and the Government have no right to control that - it's what makes us better than them.
2
Although a five hour watch, to get a sense of China's power, check out last week's 70th Anniversary military and civilian parade, as well as a staggering after party. 150,000 participants, all in perfect formation and unison, if Trump puts on a parade, it will be ridiculed by comparison.
Note that in the English version Korea is described as a region of China, as are Mongolia, Taiwan, Honkers etc.
My fave is the 300 drones making a choreographed 'firework' display, the drones work in perfect unison to reconfigure super-fast to for different 3D shapes. Hello the new battlefield weapon.
A 7 min film of foreign armies marching at the event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hAg8MsG30M
A 3 hour account of the whole event, check out the cadre of riot police vehicles, a new typology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dit7zmnzAh0
A 2:20 hour film of the Gala night party.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBHVKIw8VJ8&t=3513s
I have full confidence in every Americans in defending their freedom of speech and act courageously at these critical moments with CCP increasing their encroachment onto the free world. Young people, including myself, are fighting a tough fight on behalf of the free world against CCP in Hong Kong right now. The situation in Hong Kong has reached a humanitarian crisis with random street arrests for simply being young, wearing black T shirts or face masks. The police has been filmed grabbing people off the street in unmarked cars, imitating as protesters and throwing firebombs at reporters. There has been an upsurge of corpses being found in the waters around HK. People disappeared or missing are on the increase.
78
Thank you for your comment, and best of luck to you and all the courageous people of Hong Kong.
15
@Chan
I’m sorry, but you HK young people have ceded the moral high ground to China with your outrageous behavior: Totally trashing the MTR stations and making them unusable to the HK people who depend upon them; blocking roads and traffic; impeding travel through the airport; destroying private property (burning cars and motorcycles, smashing windows, setting fires); physically attacking and assaulting people you don’t like); destroying public property (e.g. digging up bricks from the landscaping to be used as weapons against the police, trashing the legislative council chambers and public facilities). Attacking the police in the performance of their legitimate duties (shining laser light into eyes, hurling projectiles at them, throwing gasoline bombs and corrosive/poisonous chemicals at them, attacking them with clubs, etc.) is NEVER justifiable in a civil society. This behavior would not ever be tolerated in the United States.
You have also alienated average Hong Kong people whose lives and livelihoods have been upended by your antics: https://youtu.be/ZPYuGYLesx0
Moreover, by openly advocating formal perminant separation from China, you are antagonizing, alienating, and galvanizing 1.4 billion Chinese people who will stand with their government when the territorial integrity and sovereignty of their homeland is threatened.
You have given the Central Chinese Government more than ample legal and moral justification for a harsh crackdown in Hong Kong.
Congratulations.
2
@JTS If the vandalism is indeed as bad as you say, this is unfortunate. And would agree that this would sadly alienate many people, both in Hong Kong and mainland China. I would like to read a response from Chan or someone else from Hong Kong to give their view of what has occurred. All that said, and sincerely said, I support the Hong Kong protestors (and also the people of Taiwan) and wish them well in their battle against the bullying and oppression of the mainland government. And a "harsh crackdown" ,as you seem to suggest is warranted, would alienate world opinion against China, and render any cordial relations with much of the rest of the world impossible to achieve for the long and foreseeable future. It would be a great blunder, if that is concerning to you. It may not be.
5
Kristof is taking a playbook from Madame Secretary on TV! Digging up family dirt on Xi with a threat to disclose. It could work.
As a form of protest, every family in the USA could buy a Winnie the Pooh plushie.
Oh, wait. Disney plushies are made in China.
2
When China is the sole hegemon of the globe later in this century, it's most likely to behave like Ancient Rome, letting its little provinces like the United States basically behave freely, as long as no threat to China's rule (like Christianity and the Jewish War in Judea for Rome) raised its ugly head over here. By then, the Chinese internal market will be much bigger than America put together now, so we'll be about as important to China as Brazil is to us now. Pooh, and Big Macs, selfies, and porn will be totally safe.
1
I'd like references to Xi be as "President for life...".
Speaking of detention of 1 million Muslim, can we talk about buses and markets bombed, and pedestrians stabbed by Uighur Muslim in and outside of Xinjiang? A story has multiple angles to look at. Amplifying one aspect is called misleading at least if not propaganda. No wonder Trump screamed "Fake news", "Dishonest media" and lots of folks believe it. Uighur coverage in Western media supports Trumps' claim. My past comments on Uighur did not pass the NY Times censorship. I am looking at this one to confirm or reinforce the concept of "fake news"
1
Incorrect, media coverage of this has been completely fair, articles describing terrorism and unrest are written as well. It's just that the imprisonment of 1 million people over their religion is a MUCH bigger story due to how egregious it is. Could you imagine the uproar if the west started to imprison muslims en masse during the rise of ISIS? There are much more sane ways to deal with extremism than mass imprisonment. If you can't see how far the CCP has gone over the line here you're either a CCP apologist or willfully ignorant.
1
@Lily L If china has a right to imprison millions of Uighur muslims based on actions of a few, USA has a right to deport, reject visas of Chinese based on the continuous espionage, hacking and intellectual property theft from PRC citizens. Justifying genocide and discrimination based on ethnicity race or religion is not only classic authoritarian propaganda, it's disgusting and blatant violation of international human rights.
What are the functional limits of authoritarianism? Where is Xi on the Uncle spectrum, between Walt of The Happiest Place on Earth, and Joe of Stalinist Russia?
Disney has already captured and maimed Winnie-the-Pooh. He is now a banal and blobby distortion of his former charming and witty self.
4
America was built by enslaved black African human beings personal labor on lands and using natural resources stolen from brown First Nations human pioneers by cruel inhumane savage white European Judeo-Christian colonizers and conquerors.
With 5% of humanity America has 25% of the world's prisoners. And while only 13% of Americans are black like Ben Carson and Tim Scott, about 40% of the prisoners are black. Because black people are persecuted for acting like white people do without any criminal justice consequences. Prison is the carefully carved colored exception to the 13th Amendment abolition of slavery and involuntary servitude.
By every positive educational health socioeconomic measure black Africans in America are second class separate and unequal 'citizens'. Blacks are expected to be grateful, invisible and silent.
There is no American territory nor possession named China nor Hong Kong. But there is an American San Juan and Puerto Rico.
America, China, France, India, Israel, Italy, Myanmar, Russia and the United Kingdom constitute an axis of anti-Islamic evil and prejudiced bigotry.
Xi Jinping eliminated of China's term-limited collective leadership model he did not end socialism with Chinese characteristics aka capitalism. China's rise is threatened by an aging and shrinking ethnic Han majority with a below replacement level birthrate and a massive male gender imbalance.
'I am an invisible man' from 'Invisible Man' by Ralph Ellison.
2
Chinese used to be be a poor mother, robbed of her child at gun point, When she finally got her child back, he has already grown aloof of her, even with some disdain of her old
-fashion way. The mother's heart believes her love and care could win him back his heart, When he was in trouble in 1997 financially hit by foreign shortsellers, she gathered all her meager savings to fend off the barbarians. He was able to keep most of his assets. He grows and grows under her care, Now he wants to disown her.
the comments in your article are not regarded as free speech in china. it is stupid to easily comment on the issues related to sovereign. and thinking the people is not satisfied with CCP is not accurate.
1
It is time for a BDS type of movement against China to coerce them to change their behavior.
2
Too bad Trump has essentially destroyed America’s reputation. It’s hard to exert soft power when you’re a laughingstock and a pariah.
2
As long as we have a President who admires authoritarian leaders like Xi, Putin, Erdogan, Orban, and Kim, and wishes he could be just like them, columns like this seem pointless.
1
it is always painful when you think you are the boss and you discover that you are not. We used to be the boss
3
this Chinese plan to dominate world trade on land and sea is a sobering reminder of President Xi's intentions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXROXiIpvQ
1
Kristof asks, "What happens when China’s enforcers come after Winnie-the-Pooh?"
They don't have to come after Winnie. They can just put it out to pasture, as I expect all versions of Winnie-The-Pooh are made in China these days. For all I know, the Chinese own Winnie-The-Pooh outright.
As to the N.B.A., what's the big deal? It's just one more very big corporation, whose only value (public relations spin notwithstanding) is to maximize profits. The only differences between the N.B.A., Facebook, and Boeing, are that the former sells athletic performance, Facebook sells you, and Boeing sells aircraft.
As with any corporation, if you do not like what it does, organize a very public boycott of all its products. As President Clinton would remind us, "It's the money, stupid!"
2
The biggest internment of people, based on religion, is the treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim majority countries. They are prisoners their whole lives, many families for generations, and can be killed on a whim. Stop making the abusers the victims.
2
First Farhad Manjoo, now you, Nicholas...critical of China but no mention of South Park calling out the People's Republic in their last episode, "Band in China"?
Their episode was far more daring and insightful and critical than Morey's tweet (it was only a tweet).
Mind you, Pooh is a central character in this episode. Spoiler: Pooh gets murdered...completely censored.
2
Maybe we could get the Brits to make a Winne-the-Pooh balloon like they did with Trump in diapers.
Oh, come to think of it the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade is just around the corner. Hmmmm.
1
"What happens when China’s enforcers come after Winnie-the-Pooh?"
They don't have to come after Winnie. They can just put it out to pasture, as I expect all versions of Winnie-The Poo are made in China these days.
As to the N.B.A., what's the big deal? It's just one more big corporation, whose only value (public relations spin notwithstanding) is to maximize profits. The only difference among the N.B.A., Facebook, and Boeing, is that the former sells athletic performance, Facebook sells you, and Boeing sells aircraft.
As with any corporation, if you do not like what it does, organize a very public boycott of all its products. As President Clinton would remind us, "It's the money, stupid!"
1
Xi Jinping is obsessed with China’s image— why any form of communication or contents that detailed suffering and brutality caused by this immoral regime are banned in China— including political struggles in Tibet, Xinjinag, Hong Kong, Taiwan or anything about religious persecutions, Tiananmen Massacre, Moaism, police brutality, corruption, poverty, food safety scandals and party elites’ hidden wealth and nepotism.
Millions perished during Mao’s failed modernization campaign. Innocent youth became terrorists during the Cultural Revolution. Yet, today’s Mainland Chinese youth are blind to the truth. They worship this unrepentant party for giving them a better life because of Deng Xiaoping’s economic reform and ignore the millions that suffer from corruption and inhumane policies. Women were forced to abort their pregnancies even when a child was in full-term. Babies were left to die on the streets.
Xi distorts and suppresses the truth to suit his thirst for global dominance. In the name of international free speech, he commands his 50 Cent Party, a group of state-backed internet commenters to popularize his adulterated Chinese culture worldwide, by smearing and attacking anyone that speaks up. Even the ten commandments have been replaced by Xi’s Thoughts in China. Dissidents are hunted and purged.
I vote for international circumvention to free China from oppression. The world should work together to curb Xi Jinping’s propaganda machine and bring down his Evil Firewall.
3
This is somewhat of a repeat of how we fawned over another totalitarian government, Nazi Germany in the late 1930’s. The movie studios allowed the Nazis to censor movie scripts. During the 1936 Berlin Olympics, Avery Brundage removed 2 American Jews from the 400 relay so that Hitler didn’t have to see Jews on the podium.
Money, as always, makes the world go around.
1
TTFN! We might as well go back to looking for that Woozle!
The Nazis provided better healthcare to its citizens than FDR could to American citizens. Their schools were probably better too.............and? That is a very tired and very red herring.
4
“Xi Jinping doesn’t like Pooh because he denounces Western values,” Christopher Robin says.
“Not true,” says Piglet. “He sent his precious daughter to Harvard.”
“You can learn Core Socialistic Values at Harvard, can’t you?” asks Owl. “Students learn about prosperity, democracy, civility, harmony, freedom, equality, justice, the rule of law, patriotism, dedication, integrity and friendship in America, don’t they?”
“What does that have to do with China?” asks Piglet.
“mmm…” Christopher Robin doesn’t know what to say. “Well, that’s how Xi defines socialistic core values.”
“No wonder so many Mainland Chinese students come to America to study,” Eeyore rolls his eyes.
“360,000 last year!” Tigger the Tiger says. “I bet they all do independent studies about socialistic path with Chinese characteristics.”
“I think it’s called The Road to Rejuvenation.” Christopher Robin has read The Governance of China, so he thinks he got the gist of China.
“What does it mean by forge ahead like a gigantic ship breaking through strong winds and heavy waves?” Eeyore asks.
“Who knows?” Pooh says, like nothing is concerning. “You can’t stop people from dreaming about silly things like taking over the world.”
4
Mr Kristof,
Who cares if the Chinese can all read, if all they are *permitted* to read... is lies?
1
"President Xi wants to censor the West.."
and Apple caves in
"Apple Removes App That Tracked Hong Kong Police"
NY Times 10/10/2019
1
The NYTimes is a little late to the party, but welcome nevertheless.
Perhaps your intrepid reporters could find out what happened to the 10,000 Falun Gong followers (involuntary organ donors) or the millions of Uighurs whose lives are being destroyed by the heavy ham-hand of the Chinese Communist party.
China's government is bad for people, all people.
2
Mr. Kristof, you are a wonder of our age, truly supporting free minds and free public conversation. Thank you. I have always admired your attempts to understand the Chinese culture and people. I became enchanted with Chinese martial arts culture in my 20s (I will be 64 on my next birthday). Kung fu folks defended the rights of the people against what appears to have always been an abusive national government, and such folk have been remembered as heroes among the people. It looks like the current Chinese national government is as corrupt and abusive as those of the past. What can you say about a system that crushed the feet of its daughters for 1,000 years as a pre-requisite for living a normal, married life? What do you do with the fact that boys were brutally castrated for that same 1,000 years so they could study and find a good job in the government busily crushing its people? The Chinese are still in the epigenetic shadow of those systematic tortures. Does that explain the current government's abuse of Muslims, Tibetans, and anyone who says anything that might tear aside the veil of the mandate of heaven, including you, the NBA, pooh bear, and who or what else? You must be some kind of saint to keep trying to help and understand these folks.
1
We should stand behind Hong Kong and Taiwan, the way others stood by the US when it was done dealing with dictators. I personally flew to HK and will stay here as long as it takes until these people get their freedom.Doing nothing now is no different then had we done nothing with Hitler.
36
Be careful with that schools comparison there. China deliberately submits only Shanghai's schools--the cream of the crop--to PISA. You can't compare Shanghai to the school systems of entire countries.
53
Winnie the Poo, as is most plush toys are made in China
Different cultures have different values – because the people who created them are different. Is that not allowed? – must “Western values” dominate? Maybe the Chinese are preferring “Eastern values”, as they have developed during the latest 3000 years? It is a Western delusion, I think, that each and everyone in the world would prefer to live their lives in a “western-value” society. Looking at UK and USA today – how “liberal democracy” play out “Western values” inside their own countries and abroad, is that scary??
Maybe we are finally getting a taste of our own medicine! I wonder what Haitians, Chileans, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans, Cubans, Iraqis, etc. felt like when getting pushed around by the big US bully?
1
What does he mean by "I love China?" You're gonna have to be a little more specific. No, a lot more specific. What do you "love" about China? The food? The weather? The funny accents? The sounds of prisoners snoring in the internment camps? Saying "I love China" really doesn't say much.
3
Can you imagine the outrage here if a foreign entity criticized our definition of rape, sexual assault. Every group has its buttons.
There are things certain cultures take more seriously than others. The Japanese has blacklisted Korean companies and banned exports of important industrial chemicals because the Korean government just won't shut up about the comfort women issue. Let's see what happens if the NBA wades into that pool. In the US, if anyone criticises Israeli policy in the occupied territories, they get labeled as anti-semites. How about the human rights issues there ? And how about the Trump administration's support for ethnic cleansing against the Houthis ? Is that not a human rights issue ? A scientist found differences in the brains of different races, and he was condemned as a racist. There are many things people just don't dare say in the US lest they will be accused by being politically incorrect or worse. This is self-censorship, not freedom of speech as you define it. But the same kinds of things would not get censored in other parts of the world, including China. Would you say that there is or is not freedom of speech in the US ? And I am quite sure some people in the US would get quite touchy if foreigners bring up the shameful history of slavery, or even the current state of minorities rights. But most people respect the cultural differences in opinions. This is not stifling free speech. This is being sensitive to other people's feelings. And none of us would imagine ourselves being knowledgeable enough to pass judgement on issues that don't concern us.
1
Couldn't agree more with the condemnation of Xi.
But face it, Disney killed Pooh.
If a free flow of information can eventually liberate minds, then when are the people in the U.S. who love a nematode as their leader going to break the strains of nimcompoopishness?
"Winnie-the-Pooh has been banned in China online and at movie theaters because snarky commentators have suggested that he resembles the portly President Xi Jinping."
Trey Parker and Matt Stone made your column? They must be celebrating. You have placed South Park as the barrier between free speech and appeasing the Communist dictator of China. I don't think that scenario was in the their proposal, when Parker and Stone presented their cartoon to the networks for consideration.
Xi Jinping is freaking out because Trump is mentally harming the world, which I believe is at the heart of his inability to deal with Hong Kong.
That two American satirists broke China's back is random. Xi's actions come from much deeper scars.
President Xi needs to be jailed. He's a tyrant and dictator.
China needs to be taught a lesson - don't mess with democracy and American's 1st Amendment. It's time to Boycott China!
Look, Kristof:
Turkey tried this too, some years ago. Suing foreign governments to shut up ort to shut up their subjects is common in the rest of the world. CHina is merely imitating what Eureope has done for decades.
This is nothing new under the sun.
Step number 4. U.S. and other democratic citizens should use their voice and money to admonish those companies that bend to China’s negative influence.
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I love China and all its people.
I love China and all its people.
I love China and all its people.
Okay?
"But let’s also note that China has helped lift more people out of poverty more quickly than any nation in history." Since when robbing-Peter-to-pay-Paul mentality is justified? Are China's milking international trade partners and usurping intellectual properties to lift Chinese people from poverty praiseworthy? God forbid, if we extend this mentality to the rest of the world by coercing and stripping wealthy people to feed the poor. Let's not go there!
2
I worry even more about the rise of nationalism in America inculcated in part by our Preident and his followers in Congress.
Let's call China for what it is: a Han ethnostate that suppresses anybody and anything that might inconvenience the Hans - this means the Tibetans, Uighurs, Hui; it also means Chinese neighbors and even Africans who are mercilessly exploited by Chinese "entrepreneurs", who are busying themselves with driving species into extinction.
The Han are far from nice to each other as well, as evident in the hukou system which exploits the non-metropolitan residents.
In other words, we are talking about a brutal police state whose abuses of human dignity and rights have been ignored for too long by Western politicians and businesspeople out to make a buck. It's time for the civilized world to make a stop to this.
3
30 years ago, I volunteered a year of my time to teach government scientists English so they could attend grad school in the US. Tienanmen happened and I watched as restrictions tightened and prevented all but a few (the admin) from studying abroad. I am rueing my decision made so long ago. Control is king in China, and freedom almost unknown.
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"Child mortality is now lower in Beijing... China has lifted more people out of poverty more quickly than any nation in history"
Does this refer to the 70 years of Communist rule, or just the post-Mao era? Because the former included the Great Leap Forward, which killed around 30MM. Hard to respect their system if it can't acknowledge its failures. BTW, the US lifted a lot of people out of poverty too.
54
@JR
You might also take account of the genocide against the American Indians, or Native Americans, of the U.S. That wasn't so recent, either.
2
I feel ambivalence about a lot of things. Ice cream is delicious but is loaded with sugar. Sugar is bad whether the ice cream is delicious or not. Staying up late reading the NY Times is rewarding but causes me to have a sleep deficit. A sleep deficit is unhealthy whether I'm reading the NY Times or not. China has lifted a lot of people out of poverty and built a lot of shiny towers, but some of the things that have enabled it to do that are a weak legal system, weak protection of individual rights, corruption, an autocratic government and party, and gaming the international trade system. Those things are bad because, in tandem with state propaganda, internet restrictions, censorship, and other thought control measures, China has created a soulless, mercantilist, materialistic society. So my point is, don't let feelings of ambivalence distract you. What's wrong is wrong no matter what.
111
Your point seems inconsistent. Are you trying to say that there is Ying to Yang and the good (economic development) must come with the bad (lawless society, no labor/individual rights), so one must accept both? Then you went on to say the wrong should never be accepted. Not a very good segue or logical argument, if you forgive for saying so.
What I want to say however is something else. How did you arrive at the conclusion that China is only able to developer economically because of weak legal system and such? This is a fundamental logical fallacy people seems to make over and over again. It’s based on an assumption that economic development inevitably comes with the price of oppression. It doesn’t. Economic development may be slower but it can be done while maintaining a fair society.
6
Another commenter pointed out that Taiwan surpassed China economically long ago. You are right. This assumption by so many that Chinese economic advancement has been possible only because of Chinese communist party oppression is demonstrably incorrect and is a dangerous and fallacious assumption. The sad fact is that China, as impressive as its history is, has never experienced the Enlightenment , never had, to my knowledge , a Voltaire, a John Locke, etc. And this is so sad for the many, even if they are a minority, who yearn to be free. We should support them, NBA profits, or Apple profits, be damned.
12
Chairman Mao banned Western music. Xi Jinping, so far, has only banned Winnie-the-Pooh. Marxist leaders always ban different forms of art.
A way to oppose what President Xi is doing is to talk about Marxism. Marxism has consistently led to famine. Chairman Mao caused a famine starting in 1959, when he forced farmers to melt their tools and donate the metal to the government. At least 40 million people died, and possibly even 60 million. Mao probably caused more deaths than any other leader in history.
Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, the Kim Dynasty--all of them caused famines. All of them suppressed liberty. Why doesn't anybody blame Marx for Marxism? If they did, Marxist leaders could be defeated.
5
@George Jochnowitz
Aside from the fact that china is Communist in name only, if you look at history you will see that genocide on the scale of Communism has occured all the time in history, often under the scope of relgion or ethnicity. The reason why the communist genocide figures are so high is that the total world population was/is very high. Moreover, Hitler, who was absolutely not a Communist, caused WW II which lead to more deaths than any single one of the Communist genocides (And contributed to most of them as well). An obsession with Communism leads to an ignorance of the human condition and our ability to call out genocide irrespective of relgion, ethnicity or political system.
1
I would like a clear distinction drawn between Xi and the CCP, and the “Chinese”, whom Xi think owe global fealty to the CCP. Stop using “the Chinese” to refer to China. The ethnic Chinese of Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Canada, the UK, the US etc are not PRCese.
1
Disney Official website has just banned Winnie the Pooh if you use Hong Kong IP address. South Park's prediction is right.
Kill Winnie the Pooh for Renminbi
Great Column!
Kristof asks, "What happens when China’s enforcers come after Winnie-the-Pooh?"
They don't have to come after Winnie. They can just put it out to pasture, as I expect all versions of Winnie-The-Pooh are made in China these days. For all I know, the Chinese own Winnie-The-Pooh outright.
As to the N.B.A., what's the big deal? It's just one more very big corporation, whose only value (public relations spin notwithstanding) is to maximize profits. The only differences between the N.B.A., Facebook, and Boeing, are that the former sells athletic performance, Facebook sells you, and Boeing sells aircraft.
As with any corporation, if you do not like what it does, organize a very public boycott of all its products. As President Clinton would remind us, "It's the money, stupid!"
1
Yes!
Nick, Your maddening fair-minded-ness in this op-ed is...maddening!
Nick, are you worried that many middle-class and educated Chinese people, and especially the younger generation, seem to have bought-in to the nationalistic narrative?
I have personally seen young and educated Chinese going aboard and become even more nationalistic. They feel Western news reporting is biased against China and wrongly attributes everything to the Chinese government propaganda when many views are legitimately held by most Chinese people.
Dear Mr. Kristof
Thank you very much for your intelligent and elaborate comment about China and Xi. I watched the "South Park" episode two days ago, you know the consequences. Seems they are one of the few who are not bending down in front of the Chinese government alas dictatorship. While I find it's remarkable what the Chinese achieved in a few years (remember all the bicyclist in blue workmen-uniforms?) I'm deeply concerned what happens next. While we are still discussing for example 5G, the Chinese are probably already testing 7G. So I had this conversation yesterday before I learned today that even Apple, one of the most powerful corporation in the world, succumbs to Chinas power by removing this pro-hongkong-protesters app. Where does that lead to? I mean the Chinese people are used to surveillance (CCTV was only the beginning) but if the western democracies are afraid of China I'm deeply concerned. On the other hand: Dictators like Xi, Trump, Erdogan, etcetera must be afraid too, when they are acting like childs and, for example in China, don't even bear the comparison to Winnie the Pooh.
Kind regards from Zurich, excuse my poor english. I'm the better reader (of your column f.e.) than writer. Thomas
1
This article is well below the usual standard of Mr. Kristoff and contains several errors and misleading claims. First, Winnie the Pooh is not banned in China--you can check for yourself on baidu.com. Second, the backlash against the NBA is a grass-root campaign from Chinese citizens, followed by the cancelation of game streaming by private companies. Xi and the Chinese government were not involved. This is not censorship, but Chinese citizens exercising their freedom of speech--in this case, advocating for the boycott of a company they perceive as anti-China. Third, Mr. Kristoff describes a rise in Chinese "nationalism" and claims that it's the result of government propaganda. However, "nationalism" in its English context does not apply to the sentiment of the Chinese. Rather, Chinese patriotism is the result of the genuine visible progress of China, which is far more effective than government propaganda. Fourth, Mr. Kristoff's plan to broadcast American propaganda in China is doomed to fail. When is the last time the NYT publishes anything remotely positive about China? Perhaps the Chinese media should "liberate the minds and peoples" in the US by reporting real, objective news. Finally, it's absurd to think that the CIA has any sort of credibility in China. If they find evidence of corrupt--just like they found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq--it will be rightfully dismissed as a CIA plot.
Having lived in the region, I don't think it's too hard to understand China.
Everything is motivated by the premise that they're all in together. However, there must be room to acknowledge that humans always need to have something extra (greed, power, etc) for themselves.
The US can't understand this because of its own nasty history.
Does anyone seriously think Huawei would put up any more of a fight about revealing personal details of their users than the NBA did about a tweet?
Once I tutored a young mainland Chinese kid in English. He was attending the George school in PA. The conversation turned to Mao at one point and the kid's demeanor changed completely; he started spouting propaganda like a pair of chattering teeth. I was genuinely taken aback. It was like watching someone speak in tongues. I said, "Well, I'm sure Mao accomplished a lot but he also was responsible for the deaths of many in the Cultural Revolution." The kid got up from the table, left the café where we were meeting, and wrote me a curt letter saying that "my services would no longer be required." I had never observed the product of brainwashing so close at hand. China's power is money. Lots of it. She owns huge chunks of our nation's debt and real estate. We have Universities, sports teams, and business over there. She exerts her muscle— like tearing down huge posters of basketball teams visiting for international games—to show that she can turn anyone into a non-person overnight. China is the most repressive surveillance state on the planet. This brutal dictatorship, like all in the past, specializes in imposing silence, even within the walls of people's own homes and in their minds (see Franco's Spain; see East Germany; see Russia, and the list goes on). My student ten years ago was accustomed to going into robot mode when Mao's name came up because he was used to being spied on. We cannot base our lives on China's money and not be subject to her control.
3
What if China tells Americans that it's overreacting to list OK gesture as a symbol of hate?
Overall China's infant mortality rate is 8 per 100K births. Shanghai has brought theirs down to 5, while DC has 7.8 as the worst rate among all 25 high-income capital cities.
How this is relevant to the rest of this well-argued op-ed is a mystery to me.
1
the truth is that America censored the world for more than 50 years, and you fear that China will challenge America's monopoly.
re: "... it’s always helpful to hold at least two contradictory ideas in our heads at the same time."
Unfortunately, approximately 40% of the US population--aka 'Republicans'--are incapable of doing this.
A very timely and important column. Thank you.
Mr. Kristof, instead of your yes but arguments, why not simply tell the Chinese to grow up and stop being hyper sensitive to every real and perceived slight. No individual—certainly no country can control all the narrative concerning it. Constantly kowtowing to China is like indulging a spoilt brat, the disruptive behavior only gets worse.
Illegal and counterfeit drugs continue to be manufactured and flow from China. Fentanyl, for one.
1
The Chinese are reading Karl popper the author of “the open society...” but is that the book to read? It’s much better than CIA analyst Bruce Bueno de Mesquita’s “the dictators handbook.” The former speaks of science and refuted theories while the latter says brazen self interest is good for leaders. Now social policy is not treated like a science, although misnamed “scientific socialism” the Chinese practice capitalism. The right to dissent comes from religious freedom, and it was once believed that capitalism was a precursor to liberalism, after The Soviet Union fell, neoliberals were the last man standing (but for China?) who is really a practitioner of rational decision making, specifically collective rationalism.
1
It seems it's not Winnie-the-Pooh (as drawn by E. H. Shepard) that the Chinese censors object to, but the (unhyphenated) Disney adaptation Winnie the Pooh.
1
Virtually everyone in Shanghai has VPN software on their phone so they can read the NYTimes n livestream Facebook if they want. The 'Great Firewall' is a non-issue to them.
America is learning what the rest of the world already knows.
When you deal with a superpower, there is a 'yes sire, no sir' thing going on.
Always is. Always has been for the rest of us.
You'll get use to it.
1
I decry the argument that we should cut China some slack because they have lifted millions out of poverty. By this logic, it is okay if a man steals from his neighbor so long as he coaches Little League. No.
China is a threat to our way of life. Today's column by Farhad Manjoo is much more direct and real than this column.
The world needs to understand that Xi is very fragile and sensitive! Comments which small children can brush off HURT him deeply, ok? That's why he acts the way he does!
Xi needs to be coddled. So to everyone in the world -- can you please remember and respect that?
Thank you.
“Paul Blustein suggests how the U.S. could join with other countries...”
Just a reminder, we presently have a President who does not wish to join or work with anyone.
Why is there no mention of the recent South park episode and the Chinese reaction to it in this article? Methinks Stone and Parkers' message hit too close to home.
If there's one thing that China can learn from America its how to take criticism.
America dishes it out, but it also takes it with aplomb.
I have never feared for my safety or liberty criticising America. I can call President Trump an idiot, (which he is) without fearing retribution.
But, one negative squeak about China and you know that you are going in some database, which will be used for my social credit score when China takes over the world.
There's one big problem though. China is a paper tiger. Its whole economy is built on real estate ponzi scheme that cannot possibly survive. Real estate cannot be purchased freehold in China. It is merely a 70 year lease. In China, EVERYTHING belongs to the state (i.e. the Chinese Communist Party). After 70 years that 89 square meters (960 square feet) condo that you bought at great expense for $811,000 for a reverts back to the Communist Party of China. So forget about passing it on to your children.
Such an economy, with its Opaque system of government, can only be VERY fragile. It goes without saying that criticism is NOT welcome in any way shape or form.
Let's put it this way, if you're Chinese and you really want to build lasting wealth, you MUST get your money out of China.
1
Why is it that when the EU wants to censor the internet world wide by forcing companies to delete articles no matter where they exist, that is looked at as a good thing; but when China wants the ability to do the same sort of thing that is evil?
Is this an example of systemic racism against the Chinese or is there a less hypocritical explanation?
Personally, I think that banning Pooh is laughable, but the reaction against the Morey tweet is quite reasonable (given that the tweet was giving comfort to violent, illegal, blackmailing vandals), and quite frankly Mr Kristof, your faux outrage is appalling. Your shallow reporting on Hong Kong has revealed a deep bias that I would not have identified if it weren’t for the fact that I live in Hong Kong and am actually experiencing everything.
You are displaying a deep objectivity and empathy failure. Why do you think that nationals and patriots should not be alarmed at someone from a foreign country providing support to illegal actions in a related sovereign territory?
Oh, I get it. The US government under Trump does not have "hysterical reactions."
I found it interesting you said you love China. I know you spent time there. I’m originally from Michigan but I don’t think I would say I love Michigan if it’s government were oppressing its people. To do so would be to kowtow.
1
It’s dizzying to realize that the USA now has its own despot dictator in charge (at the moment single-handedly responsible for the massacre of Kurds all because Trump does whatever Putin wants him to do and nobody is stopping this) and that these authoritarian corrupt governments (i.e. China) that we think of being far away are now right here, even with its own “state-like” propaganda machine of Fox News. I never thought I’d see this happen in my lifetime. Canada can’t wait for your national nightmare to be over either. The whole world can’t wait. Get your despot out of there asap, please! What has happened to your country? With this latest move abandoning the Kurds, every GOP politician and Trump supporter has blood on his/her hands. History will not be kind to you people, if we even have ‘history books’ in the future.
1
Hello, the US is busy imploding and hence being of no consequence to anyone, or haven't you noticed?
Trump is spinning out his insanity and his GOP lapdogs and Russian puppet masters are working to encourage this for their own personal benefit.
Soon we will be more worried about anarchy in our streets than about plush dolls or plush hotels. The Chinese will be self-limiting as they throttle themselves.
1
We should stand up for Tibet and East Turkestan, illegally occupied by China.
And remember June 4.
Perhaps boycott all Chinese products.
“Those of us who criticize Xi must also have the humility to acknowledge that child mortality is now lower in Beijing than in Washington, D.C.”
Hmmmm....has the author completely forgotten the mortality resulting from past population control policies?
This is why Trump's patently un-comic call on China is so chilling. When you think you are so smart that you can do dirty business with China, you are failing to appreciate the brilliance and force of will of that ancient and modern civilization.
No question that Tigger would be disappeared.
1
When my Dad and his wife took a "vacation trip" to China a few years back, I said I would never give them a dime of my money. I would never spend a dime in a country that slaughters 1--20 million dogs per year for consumption. No, I do not eat animals, proudly. They make plastic junk, and dump their by-products without care, and are hugely responsible for all the plastic in our oceans. Xi is a horrible dictator, detains Muslims, as your article mentioned (maybe that is where trump got the idea). The Chinese are probably clueless that Winnie the Pooh was actually a real bear named Winnie, and they probably do know even know who A.A. Milne was. Winnie is the symbol of pure good and China is not. I feel badly that people are born into dictatorships and I feel worse that trump thinks Xi is so wonderful. He is clueless too.
If investigations into the Xi's family corruption shows clear proof of them sticking their heads in the honey pot, I think this would be the best response to his outraged declarations of innocence:
"Silly old Xi!" said Nicholas Kristof. (Sorry Nicholas, but your first and last name scan perfectly to "Christopher Robin")
12
The U.S. ruling classes have sold us all out decades ago. A BILLION cigarette smokers? A billion Lincoln automobile drivers? A billion iPhone buyers?? Wow! What's not to like???
The pro-Big Business political elites (of both parties) apparently subscribed to the idea that Capitalism IS Democracy and that rising standards of living will inevitably lead to political and social democracy. Instead, the masses in China (formerly Red China) have been bought off, as they have been here at home. The PRC leadership is more aware of what they're doing and where they want to go than our dollar-blinded bourgeois leadership. I don't see any change in the near future. Too many billions of dollars are at stake.
Thanks, Nick, for finally explaining to me why Xi Jinping wants to outlaw Winnie-the-Pooh. It may have been said elsewhere, but until now I missed it. This is just one reason why I rely on your coverage to keep me abreast of important details about world affairs. You help me keep two contradictory ideas about China--and many other things--in my head at the same time.
A probably impossible-to-implement thought I recently had: our migration crises is a hemisphere-wide problem that involves a number of factors. High on the list is poor economic conditions in countries beset with violence.
Meanwhile, we have trouble standing up to China because of our economic entanglement. Trump's tariffs (and the Chinese response) hurt both countries. Some manufacturing is now leaving China for other SE Asian locations.
What if instead, we were to provide incentives for those manufacturing jobs to move to countries in this hemisphere that also provide low wage workers? It would not have to start with El Salvador or Honduras, but more stable places such as Peru and Chile. We could lift those boats, hopefully positively impact the entire region, and gain some leverage against China (quickly becoming an imperial threat, with, it appears to me, a fairly nationalistic populace).
Yes, China has produced much beauty, and achieved a great deal of progress. However, as to the latter, fear is a great motivator while freedom is elusive. What is happening to that nation's Muslim minority is an atrocity, and China's ham-fisted denial of individual freedoms belies its strength. I am glad the NBA didn't cave to the demand to stifle opinion.
Thanks for the insightful and constructive suggestions in regard to China.
Having moved to Taipei a year ago I have been trying to understand more of the complexity of the history of Taiwan, and became really fascinated by the facets of Taiwanese thoughts and culture. Their advances towards a pluralistic and democratic society since the end of martial law in 1987 are truly inspiring. These 23 million people live independently for so long and want to contribute internationally but are held back by China's bullying tactics. There are so many young Taiwanese who deserve so much more support from the western country, so that they can develop their full purpose and a secure perspective for their lives.
In this regard I was wondering whether you know what Jimmy Carter's current position and thoughts are about Taiwan and its status and future. He was one of the decision makers that led to more international isolation of Taiwan at the time of his presidency. It would be important to reevaluate these and other past decisions in regard to Taiwan's status by western countries to give this young democracy and its people the support that they deserve and need now.
1
Chinese in Taiwan are implicitly covertly persecuted if you delve deeper, not get blinded by the narratives of the incumbent seperatist government, who is a master of fooling and getting themselves re-elected by lies.
The more prosperous China has become the more autocratic they have become. A lot of that prosperity resulted from taking advantage of our benevolence. China has a centuries-old autocratic bent that didn't just arrive with Mr. Xi or even Mao. They will not give this up. We need to protect ourselves and the rest of the free world first and foremost, whatever implications that has for China. Otherwise we are just hastening the doom of the free world. After thirty years of impoverishing ourselves to try to bring China into the international system of trade, we need to impoverish them. Weakness is provocative. Our benevolence has provoked them to take advantage of us because they see it as weakness. To them, weakness is something to exploit. Trying to rectify this through the W.T.O is a joke because it takes years to get a result. China wiped out our textile manufacturers in our Southeast in a year or two when the door was opened for them to do so. Mr. Trump has done a ham-handed job of handling the trade issue but he at least put the China trade issue front and center. I am afraid that if I vote for a Democrat in 2020 we'll go right back to the same trade setup we had before Trump took office. CNN is hosting a Town Hall tonight for Democrats. The subject is LGBT issues. Did I miss the Town Hall on trade issues?
1
What makes you think access to information will improve China? Do Republicans not have access to the internet?
1
The thing that concerns me - it's only a matter of time before the Chinese Communist Party starts using Facebook to enforce its political standards across the Global West. Post anti-Chinese rhetoric? No Chinese visa for you, or if you work for a company with links to China, no job for you. The Facebook algorithms already censor in ways no one seems to understand. The various forms of Facebook jail are right up Xi Jinping's alley and Zuckerberg has no qualms about ways to gain more power. Finally, the Chinese social credit system, the ubiquity of Facebook, and the West's passion for gamification might all come together in a uniquely American form of oppression. All because the 1%'ers don't want to anger Xi Jinping and his buddies.
1
@Jack McNally Secondly, we don't need some fancy form of triletter organizational cyberninjitsu to act as a counter to the Chinese. We had the Trans-Pacific Partnership - which Trump promptly threw into the metaphorical Pacific. The only way to counter the Chinese Communist Party is to use Mao against himself - encirclement strategies. And that is exactly what the TPP was.
You have to love the hypocrisy inherent in this article regardless of whether there is a measure of truth in it. Especially regarding the last two points of the author's three part strategy for dealing with China's censorship of the Internet and the corruption of it's leader. Isn't the US currently railing against foreign intervention in its politics via the internet? And let's not get started regarding familial corruption and US leadership. Trumps family have taken this to new lows. And just for fun let's throw in the Clintons and their foundation. One can argue till blue in the face about equivalence but rest assured that very same argument would be taking place in China.
@R. Duguid so... China bears no responsibility for human rights, civil rights because there's corruption in the US? And the US should accept whatever prohibitions the Chinese make on our speech, because there's corruption in the US?
That's just the kind of whataboutism that's currently failing in Washington. It's weak and short lived.
All journalists, including Mr. Kristof should cease comparing the whole US system of education to only the elite metropolitan schools in China, e.g. Shanghai! In the United States we try to educate every child, including those with many disadvantages and innumerable at-home languages. This might reduce the test scores, but it elevates the experience and knowledge base of all citizens.
Mr Kristof, I appreciate your points but I think you are wrong when you write that "There’s not much we can do about a dictator like Xi bullying his own citizens".
China has leap forward in the last 20 years almost entirely because 'ambivalent' Westerners believed that allowing the Chinese communist regime to participate in our democracy-created economy would magically open up Chinese society and lead, eventually, to democracy or at least a free-market system there. Wrong.
Instead, the regime has harnessed the desperation (and remarkable work ethic) of its people to hijack our economy, building their own up with total disregard for labor rights, environmental protection, or common decency (i.e., theft of intellectual property).
While there are complicating factors all around - lower prices for U.S. consumers have kept up the illusion of economic advancement for example - the basic fact is that allowing China into the WTO was a massive mistake for the West and for our liberal-democratic ideals.
So when NYT super-geniuses who supported letting China play in our system now say there's nothing we can do about them cheating at it, or even trying to manipulate the way we do things, I can't agree.
Its not too late to kick totalitarianism back out of the WTO. Would it be pretty? No. Even less pretty is the idea that in twenty years, China will be telling us a lot more than where to stick the Pooh.
1
China will soon have more gravitational pull, economically, than the U.S., perhaps the West. And the Orwellian nightmare is being played out there to a remarkable degree. Hence, it's hardly alarmist to express concern about China's effect on our values. (Though it's not so much a barbarians at the gate argument--because, frankly, compared to China, we're the barbarians--but a Help, China is coming for our Winnie the Pooh argument.) Meanwhile, what's so astounding is that it's the business sector of our society that's most inclined to overlook, in fact step in line with, the Orwellian dystopia it associates with a communist society, if only to make a buck. What happened to all that Ayn Rand inspired ideology, suddenly?
1
The idea that a "a freer flow of information eventually can liberate minds and peoples" was the rationale (or at least the justification) for allowing, and in fact encouraging, American businesses to offshore their manufacturing and environmental issues to China while privatizing all of the resulting profits. Thirty years later it's clear to nearly everyone how disastrous a strategic choice that was for America and especially for the American people. Sorry Mr. Kristoff but doubling down on failure seems a poor idea to me.
With regard to Kristof's point about opening up the internet for the Chinese and his worry that they aren't that interested.
I think it is pretty clear they aren't that interested. Consider how many Chinese travel outside of China. Well, I have met many of them, and most (but not all) show no curiosity to look things up while they have free internet.
It seems to me they just aren't that worried about their government. We are much more worried than they are...
I think Kristof should be more worried than he is about how the Chinese government would respond to a US government effort to make internet circumvention technologies available to Chinese citizens. Xi Jinping does not seem to have been making a major effort to prevent Chinese citizens from using tools like Ultrasurf and Psiphon. But if the use of such tools started looking like a US government plot, suppressing them would almost certainly become a much higher priority. I would not be surprised if the Chinese government escalated its effort to suppress such tools anyway, in the next couple of years, but we should not be hurrying that development.
I would be astonished if a US government effort to provide such tools to the Chinese public did not lead to a significant decline in the actual availability of such tools in China. I would be surprised if the number of people using such tools, a year after the beginning of such a US program, were even a quarter as large as it is today.
1
I agree with your idea of internet circumvention. Until we burst the bubble and bring 1.4 billion Mainlanders the truth, there will be no end to this dangerous patriotism. While Xi walls the Mainlanders up from the free flow of information, his sophisticated propaganda machinery uses free speech to expand China’s influence.
“Why are we so confident? Because we have developed and become stronger. China has won worldwide respect with its century-long efforts. Its prestige keeps rising, and its influence keeps expanding”— his words from the Governance of China shows how much he cares about PR. He’s all about lifting China from a country that was bullied by foreigners. He wants Chinese people to be proud, even if it means distorting the history.
“To strengthen our cultural soft power, we should intensify our international right of speech, enhance our capability of international communication…help our people build up and persist in a correct concept of history…”
Most important of all, Mainlanders need to know that no foreign country has ever killed more Chinese than the Communist Party.
“When there is not enough to eat people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill.”
Guess who said that? These are Mao’s words. During the Great Famine, Mao made sure that one-third of the available grain go to feed Party Members. When millions were dying from starvation due to his failed agricultural reform, he was eating his fill.
5
A very informative - and chilling - piece.
I wonder why we don't apply the same rules here as we do in the political arena - no foreign interference should be acceptable in the setting of our standards or freedom of speech.
Though we likely can't make this a legal standard, it should at least be considered as a moral and dare I say it democracy-protecting issue.
Every so often, a Times’ column gives me hope that adults on all sides of the political spectrum can find common cause. This is one of those times. China is a complex issue, worthy of praise but also a threat, as this column nicely explains, and one deserving of continued attention by our leaders.
2
We had a similar problem back in the mid- to late-1908s with Japan and claims of "Japan bashing." The debate centered around what constituted legitimate criticism of Japan's actions abroad. Universities and research institutions receiving grant money from Japan felt the squeeze. In this piece, Mr. Kristof's piece draws a clear line.
2
@Robert typo: "1980s"
"With China, it’s always helpful to hold at least two contradictory ideas in our heads at the same time."
I completely agree with this statement, but until the NYT launched the 1619 project, where was that same level of nuanced thinking when discussing our own history. Mr. Kristof comes close to threading the needle by highlighting China's meteoric rise, and all the good and bad that comes with it, but where is the same persistent framing of our own very real set of contradictions?
By no means do I condone or wish to be seen as a shill for the CP of the PRC. Where is the outrage in the West about East Turkestan? We're guilty of being bystanders, once again, to another genocide by virtue of economics.
However, I do feel that we, as Westerners are reflexively critical of China and only very recently, and still reluctantly admissive of our own historical and contemporary shortcomings. China's "hysterical" reactions are still informed by nearly two centuries of traumatic relations with the West. The same way that "good people on both sides" stretches from centuries worth of white supremacy.
Isn't it hard now to say that there should be push back against Xi and his family when we've got our own problem leader and his family? Have American's have the right to criticize other leaders now that our democracy is in peril?
4
A small thing, but someone help me out here: Why exactly is Xi or the CCP offended by the comparison of Xi to Winnie the Pooh? Pooh is cute, friendly, but also an apex predator. Some may consider him bumbling at times, but only those who take the time to actually read the children's stories, and that is outweighed by all his other qualities (like steadfastness). Pooh would seem to be a harmless, or even net-positive image for Xi to associate himself with. Someone aiming for dominance would be wise to cloak himself in a character that is warm, fuzzy, and already dominant.
7
@gnowxela - The Tao of Pooh.
As long as profits are more important than integrity, this will continue to the end of our predatory, undemocratic capitalist, so-called American dream. It's becoming a nightmare.
3
Given we have an authoritarian in the White House it seems odd to be worried about Xi spreading authoritarianism here. We have our own voters doing it at the ballot box and Russia is lending a hand. But perhaps Americans will wake up and decide they like liberal democracy better than fascism after all and the main threat to freedom comes from an external source, China. The three ideas presented here seem worth considering and I am sure there are more ideas that should be looked at. China is making progress when it comes to materialism but is going backward when it comes to human rights. As it grows in wealth, power, and influence the latter should become increasingly disturbing and must be countered.
4
Sorry Mr. Kristof, but I don't believe that allowing 'free information' into China will curb nationalism, only fan it. There is a phenomenon with students from China at U.S. institutions, for example, who return to China only more fervently nationalist, and when I ask them why, the answer is always because they have now had the chance to understand the Americans' true attitudes and intentions towards China - such as, for example, gathering dirt on their president and using it as leverage.
Say what you will about Xi, his power and sensitivity, or fear, but does this REALLY strike you as a stance of good faith to start any kind of discussion? Do you really believe that Americans have a right to this kind of information, such as the debacle with Merkel, which only unfortunately was discovered and made public? Is this REALLY how you think American foreign policy should be conducted, indefinitely, into the future?
Furthermore, what makes you think that revealing any dirt about Xi will have any impact whatsoever? Do you not see how much dirt has been revealed about Trump, his business dealings, bankruptcies, extortionist tactics, and now the situation with Ukraine? Why do you think the Chinese populace would be willing to revolt over what the American populace has already turned a blind eye to?
I'm sorry, but as a Chinese and an American, I find this article extremely naive!
1
Uhhh, these examples listed are western companies that want/wanted to do business in China. The proper context should be western companies wanting to spread influence to China.
If these western company feel like their being censored as the author implies, just pull out. No one is telling them they must do business in China.
2
No, please! Before this go any further, let’s scratch this unfair association for good. The most friendly and gentle icon of the Western culture should never have been hijacked for this unappreciated referencing. Winne-the-Pooh is a loyal friend. Pooh is always ready to lend a helping hand to anyone. Have you read The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff? Pooh was described as a Taoist master in this book. Holding the secret wisdom of the Taoists, Pooh is always effortlessly calm, considerate and reflective. How can the world destroy our Pooh Bear’s image and associate it with someone who marginalizes, oppresses and sees no end to his power?
Uyghurs, Tibetans and Hong Kongers want to preserve their identities and way of life. No doubt Pooh Bear would respect human nature and human rights.
“A little consideration, a little thought for others, makes all the difference.” This is what Pooh always says.
2
I get the impression that Nick Kristof has never spent any time in rural schools in poor provinces in China. I’ve spent lots. The Chinese primary and secondary educational system boasts a few small urban islands of excellence drowning in a vast sea of absolutely miserable outcomes.
3
We are all for human rights... unless it costs us money. See China, Saudi Arabia, and now Turkey. How can we live w/ this
2
@Outlier
Exactly.
All that talk about "internet circumvention technologies" will fail right at the front doors of the corporations that currently use AI and other internet-enabled applications to carry out the same repression against their employees that the CCP does against the Chinese people.
Great Chinese Firewall? That is the same firewall used by business, except on a much larger scale, aided by an army of human agents.
I honestly don't think technology will have any significant role in addressing the kind of repression in China.
@Outlier - Let's not forget that we here in The Land of The Free (old, white, rich men) lead the world in jailing our citizens @ 748/100k population. China, who we claim is an "Authoritarian State", jails only 120/100k, or 16% of our incarceration rate.
"How can we live w/ this".
Western Capitalists have, for the past several decades, let their greed blind them for China's +1.4B people market. They bend over backwards in acquiescing to all that China's leadership class demands from them. And then when it doesn't work out they come squealing home to the mother governments of the West looking for succor and support.
They cannot have it both ways. So here's a thought. If you do not like what China requires of you then simply do not offer them your products and/or services. Ignore their protests and squealing when you are doing something in the greater world markets that they might not like. They are irrelevant in that context.
Remove the blinders of your greed, the solution to this situation is that simple. Now, can you Capitalists do this, or not?
John~
American Net'Zen
4
I'm surprised the article doesn't mention "South Park", which China has banned because its most recent episode has one of the protagonists land in a Chinese prison.
2
As someone that has lived and worked in China (13 years) and is an Amcit of 50% Chinese blood, I agree with this column 100%.
Panda hugging China apologists in the west will always think of counter arguments but they don't hold the high ground and they do so knowing they themselves are sellouts (and have the luxury of defending the indefensible from free societies).
3
We should stop buying stuff made in China. Much of it is cheap, defective junk anyway. And we should especially move our manufacturing that we moved to China back here. Hear that Apple? The best cellphone I ever had was a Moto X made in Texas, USA. It still works perfectly but it's memory is limited and it's screen is small.
As much as possible I stay away from Chinese products.
2
It's sad that American companies are STILL, SOMEHOW, not tripping over themselves to put some form of "Proudly Unbowed" badge with, say, a 🛇 over xi's face to show the goods were not made in or influenced by the xi regime. Not that it can be meaningfully enforced as a trademark when Chinese manufacturers can just slap it on the vast mass of products they make because, yenno, China; but it's long past time our megacorps realize that using the anti-democratic country to make their products is like mud-wrestling with a sadistic pig.
And entertaining the very notion of "“wrongfully liking” a tweet" should be automatic grounds for overthrowing a regime, as that manages to simultaneously legitimize the two intolerables of censorship AND Twitter.
2
If Winnie the Pooh is banned in China, how can there be a picture of all the Winnie the Pooh plushies for sale in Shanghai?
I like the CIA blackmail option. If China’s leaders do something bad, they and they alone should be punished. We should not be putting tariffs, restrictions, or other punishments on all Chinese companies and people because of their leaders’ actions.
1
@HO Chinese companies are owned by Chinese leaders, especially the large state-run conglomerates, and the tech companies such as Alibaba, Tencent and others. None of the annual party congress members are not millionaires, and their families receive preferential options for investments into tech firms through shadow investment companies and networks, as revealed in the Panama papers and other sources. They own vast numbers of real estate properties in the US and world wide hiding their gains and pricing out locals. Their children study at Ivy League universities here in the US where they receive preferential treatment for donations and investments. When returning they are installed in political and business leadership positions in the very same companies and investment firms, fleecing the Chinese middle class. An oligarchy, communist in name only. In fact, the CCP nowadays is closer to the former Kuomintang nationalist party that devolved into a kleptocracy.
Mr. Kristoff, I have to take issue with your comparison of the horrendous abuse of the Uyghurs to the treatment of Jews during the Holocaust. I am not minimizing the torture and imprisonment to which Muslims in China are subjected, but the specific purpose of the Nazis was to commit genocide. More importantly, internment of Jews was not based on religion, but on a warped concept of "race." Jews who had converted to Christianity, or who had both Jewish and Christian ancestry and had been raised as Christians, as well as secular Jews who did not practice their religion, were equally targeted for slaughter.
5
As I was reading through this critique of President Xi and his policies, I found myself nodding my head: narcissistic leader? Check. Bullying others to promote a nationalist agenda? Check. Personality cult around the president? Check. Corruption involving the president's family? Check.
In short, much of our criticism of China is reflected in our own nation. A Chinese citizen might read this and think, "Who are they to criticize us?" We definitely need to clean up our own side of the street before pointing the finger at China!
Obviously, this doesn't mean we shouldn't identify China's shortcomings and continue to seek change. I completely agree that we should do all the things recommended to help give Chinese citizens a leg up as they (hopefully) transition to democracy. But I wonder how much of that can be accomplished with our current leadership.
As long as we continue to tolerate and (in many cases) promote our current US president, we not only appear as hypocrites, but we lose a significant amount of bargaining power in our trade negotiations. As we continue to tolerate the rampant corruption in the oval office, we will be bargaining from a platform of weakness, not strength.
1
Admittedly, Pooh is not particularly bright, but his other qualities do a lot to make up for it. There's not a dark bone in his character. Aside from maybe not being a panda bear, I really cannot understand the fuss. I guess royalty are easily insulted.
1
"China is also forcing American Airlines to treat Taiwan as part of China ...." Isn't it so? Taiwan is Chinese territory. It is tantamount to saying, "The United States is also forcing Chinese Airlines to tread Hawaii as part of the United States."
Don't like China, Chinese, Chinese Government, Chinese Companies? Leave them alone. Quit doing business with them. Ignore them as if they don't exist in this world.
@Uday Lama
"Taiwan is Chinese territory."
That is about as true as it is to say that U.S.A. is British territory, or that Brazil is Portuguese territory. In other words, it's about what the people who live there say, not what anyone else says.
The CCP didn't lift its citizens out of poverty, greedy American corporations did. The payrolls that used to support American communities have been diverted, with half going to Chinese contractors and half showing up as record profits for "American" companies (and their owners) like Walmart and Apple.
2
Here's an idea: 10 Pacific countries can band together against China with a trade agreement. We can call it the "Trans Pacific Partnership!"
The U.S. needs to stop navel gazing and assert itself together with its allies. Unfortunately we are living off our dominance of the 20th century. The new century is China's. Trump? Stuck in the 1980s.
A commentator on Tokyo TV recently remarked that the only way the China knows how to react is to overreact.
3
Here is the moral of the China/NBA story:
If you already have all the money you want, then you can afford morality.
Otherwise, it is apparently still up for sale.
1
This is how it happens. The greedy capitulate. Meanwhile, flooding the message boards of the free press, using, as Clive Robertson says "the institutions of democracy to fight democracy" are paid up commentators and trolls, persuading those who are easily persuaded that totalitarianism is in some way good.
We are all Hongkongers now.
3
Mr. Kristoff, You are engaging in rationalization: it doesn't matter how much better Chinese health care is or that their infant mortality rate is less than ours or that they have better test scores - their government is one of the worst ever seen in history. It has the blood of over 50,000 people on their hands, it is a totalitarian obscenity. That is what matters.
It is obvious you understand all this but you seem not to take the threat the Chinese Communists pose very seriously. Are they really that amusing and harmless?
1
Yes, it's true. The trains run on time.
2
@Neildsmith
At high speeds, on more than 19000 miles of new track.
Money has no values. Money only cares about money.
2
China’s overreaction to Morey’s tweet was ridiculous, and Kristof makes a good point about the need for American businesses to push back against Chinese incursion into our own free speech.
However, the rest of this article is written as if we had a sane, competent leader and administration - which we do not.
None of these smart ideas have any chance of taking place with dictator-loving Donnie Tarriff in charge, so this conversation should probably be tabled until that pressing problem has been dealt with.
2
It ink it would be more important to substitute Trump for
Xi In this text from the article: The American intelligence community should gather information on the corruption in the Xi family that has allowed it to amass a huge fortune
Maybe xi should go on a diet. It has nothing to do with Winnie-the-Pooh.
Maybe this should be described as an irresistible force meeting an immovable object. But that isn’t the case either. It’s a clash of egos.
One follows the ancient Asian belief about face. Losing face can be detrimental to one’s future.
The other suffers from a multitude of mental disorders.
China is prepared to suffer long term in order to avoid losing face. That isn’t going to change.
Mental illness can be treated or the patient replaced.
None of the proposed actions will change Xi's mind
As to the WTO, China has broken the rules from day one
The only language that Xi understands is force.
Short of war , that is an all out economic boycott, including freezing China out of the dollar market.
Resulting domestic unrest might then force him from office
1
Has it ever occur red to anyone that most people in Chine do not agree with Hong Kong protestors? There is this thing called pride of country even if Xi is a dictator. He is not going to last forever, but Chinese people’s pride in China outlives any dictator.
You got some issues when you feel it's necessary to ban Winnie the Pooh, Santa Claus, and the Dali Lama. There's a real war on religion and basically anything deemed Western thought. This is immensely dangerous. But I feel China has been allowed to become powerful enough that it's too late. Digital totalitarianism is here and is going to spread.
1
Block the Chinese elites from sending their kids, and buying real estate in the U.S., Canada, Western Europe, and Australia and they will give us whatever we want.
2
I suspect the risk factor in calculating the net present value of doing business with China was grossly underestimated, overlooking the fact that China's communist dictator could, for example, squash any business they care to.
This humongous mistake would never have happened if China was replaced with Eritrea yet the the long term risks of working with China are arguably greater.
I wonder whether opening relations with China may be Nixon's worst legacy of all.
2
It is peculiar that The New York Times and its op-ed columnists are focusing so much on the N.B.A.'s deference to China while overlooking the far worse deference by Blizzard Entertainment to China this same week.
The fact that video gamers cannot voice even criticisms of China or voice support for Hong Kong on servers or venues owned by Blizzard Entertainment is incredible. Blizzard Entertainment is headquartered in Irvine, California.
Really, Tthe Blizzard-China scandal is far worse than the NBA-China scandal. An NBA official making an official statement on Twitter and having to apologize is a bad thing, yes. But U.S. media companies cracking down on statements made by random video gamers is far more frightening.
What's next? You can't criticize China while playing Yahoo Pool or Fortnite? Have we really reached this point?
2
There is a reflection of China's hostility to free speech in the behavior of the far left since 2012. Left wing web sites have largely eliminated comments sections. Dissenting viewpoints have been simplistically generalized as "right wing trolling". The left has sought out and publicized real examples of right wing trolls that would otherwise have been forgotten, while demonizing all legitimate criticism as right wing trolling. The result is that they've created their own echo chamber, perhaps not as severe as the one in China.
It's interesting to see this issue come up, as China is not supposed to be a target of left wing criticism, and the left does not yet have a singular stance on Chinese oppression. My prediction: it soon will, most likely one favoring China, and there will be little room for debate.
2
@MA
How do you know which critical comments under the-hardly-Conservative columnist Nicholas Kristof’s piece are from Conservatives or Progressives?
This canard that the Left lost China is 70-years-old and no more true today than in Truman’s time.
Start the clock with The Kissinger Group and Nixon’s rescuing of a Third-World ash-heap economy to divert attention from their Agnew-like corruption and Obstruction of Justice.
Wishfully naive Chinese policy— most directly accountable to greedy and short-sighted Corporate boards and Golden Parachute-seeking CEO’s only concerned with next-quarter’s stock-price— is a pox on both houses in this two-party system for willfully accepting China’s intellectual-property theft as a fait-accompli-like price for near-slave labor without need of workplace safety, unions or environmental accountability (hardly an evenly-distributed indictment considering the prevailing politics of most CEO’s).
But Conservatives hate Liberals more than they love America or value truthful and balanced historical inquiries.
Those in the USA who ignore the powerful role of sports in geopolitics, should be aware of the role of soccer , as in the words of Tucker Carlson: "Soccer is un-american and subversive!". Baseball and American football are the secret patriotic religions of nationalistic Americans . See the trailer of the movie: Field of Dreams. But almost the entire world rejects baseball and American football. And now the interesting enthusiams of American women for soccer, who generally reject active athletic involvement in baseball and America football . The geopolitical immersion of American women in global soccer will blunt the U.S. "exceptionalism" and integrate Americans as "equals" in the world's most popular sport: SOCCER !
3
I am continually amazed at the US's obsession with China's politics and economy. It is, and always has been - driven by greed. Our businesses and governments have sold our collective souls to be a part of China. Now people express mock indignation when China wants to use this greedy leverage to call all the shots. Last week's South Park episode was not only timely, but right on the mark (and now they are banned). This current op-ed piece seems to suggest that we stick it to China by "freeing" their access to our media. I really care more about US citizens and our freedoms than trying to subvert the Chinese government so people can make more money. I'd rather focus on our economy and how we can make it stronger - without China.
1
I have first-hand experience with the "Chinese way" of doing business. From that experience, I can say that the Chinese government and those who are beholden to the Chinese government for their wealth will stop at nothing to push into and try to control anything they want.
The greatest source of anger to Xi is when his way is blocked by anyone, let alone his own citizens, as in Hong Kong. His threats against companies and individuals like Morey are an example of his gradually losing the narrative.
Losing control of his farcical message is akin to intellectual death for Xi. He can't deal with it.
1
The extent to which the desire for access to the Chinese market exceeds the cost in terms of Chinese censorship of our own discussions in the West, is yet another reflection of how greed is the fundamental flaw in our financial system. Alan Greespan and many others have acknowledged that greed led to the Great Recession and greed is the reason why regulations are essential. Regulations are the enemy of greed, not of our financial system.
According to social science researcher Brene’ Brown, “It’s important to recommit to one thing that can help keep us sane: boundaries…. Setting boundaries may seem harsh, but doing so is necessary in maintaining a healthy relationship…. Nothing is sustainable without boundaries.”
The lines lawmakers draw are boundaries, also known as governmental regulations.
2
In addition to businesses and the entertainment industry Chinese censorship and self-censorship already controls many major US academic institutions. Leading institutions such as NYU, Duke and many others run branded campuses in China, and University endowments are heavily invested in there. Faculty maintain positions in both the US and China. While US funders are trying to disentangle conflicts of interest of individual faculty, this does not affect privately or business-funded initiatives, or the Confucius Institutes established by the Chinese government at many campuses, in the US and other Western nations. Chinese students at US campuses are held in line and severely punished if only voicing the lightest critique, as seen also at Australian and NZ universities that became addicted to Chinese financial . Intellectual censorship, either actively of self-inflicted , and financial dependence in academia on China is a great danger to free thought and an open society.
2
Banning 1.5 billion people from seeing Winnie the Pooh shows an absurd level of insecurity. Like many other people I suspect that much of the economic data or any other official data coming out of China is fake. They are deliberately opaque to obscure uncomfortable truths about the fragility of the chinese economic miracle. The CCP knows that if they don't maintain growth they could easily face insurrection so they need to keep up appearances no matter what. The West needs to demand greater transparency from Chinese companies not just in terms of their working conditions but also their finance transparency should be held to same standards as American or European companies. We have too much invested there to not to be concerned that their economy is more facade than foundation.
4
@Friday
I agree and saw how Rep. Marco Rubio with bi-partisan Democratic legislative co-sponsors introduced bills requiring independent, third-party-sourced verification of US listed Chinese corporations like Ten-Cent, Alibaba etc...
Its insane how American and Intl investors cannot verify claims these companies make after decades of China’s claimed progress in, for example, shutting Coal Plants or supposedly eliminating Melamin and other toxins from Pet Food (which continues years after the scandal broke and, like Fentanyl, kept getting its chemicals used under ever-shifting guises and corporate shell company designations).
“The NY Times” should keep up with “The Washington Post” and inform and update its readers on this bill and how mechanisms are being proposed to “trust-but-verify.”
Surely, Mr. Kristof, you are sufficiently acquainted with the ways of the world to understand that the balance between maintaining order and tolerating dissent is a delicate one.
Does not the contrast between self-destructive rioting in Hong Kong and burgeoning prosperity in Shanghai indicate that freedom and responsibility are not necessarily complementary?
Why does the media dub every instance of prolonged rioting a "pro-democracy" movement? Are democracy and civil disorder synonymous? Did the "Arab Spring" riots in Egypt and Syria lead to prosperity and tranquility? Are the citizens of Hong Kong freer now that the subway and airport are closed, and businesses are fleeing from civil strife?
President Xi knows more about China than I, so I would not presume to counsel him on the proper balance between freedom and order in a nation of more than a billion people. I do cringe at his apparent intent to turn government into a personality cult. I do feel sympathy for the Uighur people who are being re-educated for a role in modern Chinese society, but I do rejoice that their children will not be limited to a primitive culture.
A mere million people in China detained for re-education? Our prisons are overflowing with 2.3 million people in need of re-education.
Political speech suppressed in China? We suffer political deadlock from too much political expression. We talk politics while our physical infrastructure crumbles and our cultural infrastructure erodes.
@AynRant Uighur culture is not primitive. What a ridiculous assertion. You obviously know nothing about them. As for the citizens of HK I think you have no idea of the widespread fear the extradition bill caused at levels of society. I suppose they feel the destruction of a few subway entrances is a small price to pay for maintaining legal due process so they cannot be sent to Xinjiang for re-education if they tweet support for the wrong NBA team.
I'm not concerned about China embracing and extolling the benefits of Communism. Certainly Democracy isn't doing too well in the U.S. these days. But in order to achieve this success they compromise human rights daily and the government tightly controls it's citizens at every turn under the guise of promoting a peaceful, orderly country. What concerns me is that other countries and companies cave to China whenever they try to shut down any criticism of their leader or support for Hong Kong or the Tibetans, etc. Since when do we allow another country to dictate what we can say? They already keep a tight reign on their citizens who are working and attending school in other countries. They certainly do it here in Canada. They have threatened their families and their citizens have become propaganda puppets for Xi, either because they actually agree with him or are too afraid to disagree. What is the real purpose here? I think we make a mistake in assuming they just want to thrive and get along with everyone and merrily keep producing cheap t-shirts and technology. Far from it. Controlling your own citizens is one thing - attempting to control the narratives of other countries is another. I find it unsettling.
3
"explains how the U.S. could join with other countries to make such a trade case"
And therein lies a problem. Our president is systematically wrecking our relations with allies and making cooperation in any endeavor increasingly difficult. When he dumped the TPP (imperfect though it was) he took a big step toward Making China Great Again.
Despite our somewhat inflated opinion of ourselves, we Americans are only about 5% of the world's population. If we want to remain influential and actually nudge the world toward peace and democracy we need to invest in maintaining our lead in scientific research and build alliances. We are doing the opposite.
2
Nicholas Kristof seems to have an ambivalent attitude towards the Chinese government. I think the evidence is overwhelming that the government violated rights to which every person is entitled -- it's illegitimate.
As to the NBA's change in policy after public outrage, some don't call it "censorship" since the NBA is a private company. E.g., the Times Editorial Board wrote, "The N.B.A. has an undoubted right to set rules for it work force". So I call it "choking" whether done by government (censorship) or by private companies. Choking violates the American sentiment that you're entitled to "think what you want, and say what you think."
I would like to propose that we make October 21 an annual "Choking is un-American" day. I would hope that on that day, every lover of liberty would send Daryl Morey's tweet, "Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong." And also newspapers encouraged to place it in a prominent place.
5
We have to wait a generation or two, when poverty in China is a faint memory. Comfort will be commonplace.
Eventually the Chinese populace will decide.
More happiness or more freedom.
Happiness is difficult to attain, and the populace will choose more freedom, in order to attain more happiness.
1
I am in China and able to read this article and the NYT only because I have a super strong VPN. I like China (some days) but don't plan to stay here much longer. The air pollution is horrible and I can't get past the mistreatment of the Uighurs and other minority groups. It's too bad. The young people are smart and forward-thinking (even if they think it's OK to ebike and text at the same time!).
1
@leftofcenter
Sorry, but it is simply implausible that you have anonymously tunneled through the great Chinese firewall and that nobody in China knows you are reading the New York Times. Simply put, if you are in China and you are reading the New York Times, you work for the Chinese government.
Welcome to the club. When Canada was negotiating it's independence from the United Kingdom in the 1860s, the original name for the country was to be the "Kingdom of Canada". It was quickly realized that the republic to our south would freak out, so the "Dominion of Canada" it became (though it's still a kingdom). Things change when you're not the biggest bully on the block.
1
China's success is a bit exaggerated (always) by Mr Kristof. India, Vietnam or Bangladesh also reduced poverty in a very impressive way over the last three decades. China's education system is actually quite weak. (I teach in a Chinese university). Any comparison with the US education system is laughable and absurd. Of course the US has too much inequality in education (as in most other things), but China is the same way. To top it all, there is no open discussion of the country's many serious problems. That doesn't mean the problems cease to exist.
3
@Mitra "Any comparison with the US education system is laughable and absurd. " I agree. In China, schoolchildren do not graduate from high school without being able to spell their name. They don't fear being shot on their way to and from school. And most people who graduate know enough math to function in modern daily lives. The same can't be said about the US.
If you are talking about Ivy League standard, then of course, China does not have the per capita GDP to compete for the best teachers and students. And parents in China love it because they can pay education "consultants" to get into these, but not to get into Peking University, for example. But arguably, it is not the top of the education pyramid that matters, but the bottom. So have you ever taught in an inner city school in the US ?
Freedom is so ingrained in American culture that it is hard for us to conceive of a culture in which it is not held in the highest esteem. Chinese tradition, as Mr Kristof notes, is not the same as ours. Confucius (lived ca. 500 B.C.) formulated much of the philosophy held dear by Chinese culture. In a Confucian world, the government (traditionally, an Emperor) is the father and the people are the children. The father protects and provides for the children, and the children obey. Certain freedoms, such as upward mobility, are held dear. Political freedom, not so much.
This can change, as evidenced by Hong Kong. However, underestimating the power of Confucian philosophy in Chinese culture is perilous. I am not certain that a prosperous middle class would readily abandon tradition if the road to further prosperity is open.
Rather than pushing for democracy in China, we should -- as Mr Kristof suggests -- oppose China's egregious behaviors while engaging China as a potential partner. And in some ways, we need to emulate it: Improve our education and infrastructure, and take away China's mantle as the World's leader in renewable energy.
1
Unfortunately, I don't know if knowing the truth and free flowing of information will make a huge difference in China these days. With my intimate knowledge of people and culture there, I have to say that the majority of the Chinese today don't welcome the idea of democracy and freedom as preached by the west. First, seeing the chaos in democratic countries led by right-wing strong men, the Chinese have little appetite to change their system since the development of the country in the past 30 years was truly impressive. They believed the prosperity was created with their own wisdom and hard work. No one would hand down anything to them. People are proud and content, and believe in the story of a rising China. They don't want to change the course. Secondly, many Chinese people, like Americans, believe in Chinese "exceptionalism". Their rich history and culture defined them as a very resilient and robust people, and they very much believe in the story line told by the party that they can create history again being themselves, choosing their own path, and being loyal to the government and their people. Even if they had the same information as Americans, they may make a very different judgment and choose a very different path.
3
Free flow of information full bore should be our policy with
China. Push back hard against censorship. Same goes for inside the U.S. For example the news here was once presented by Camels. Today advertisers for gas guzzling trucks and automobiles dominate advertising, especially the news and the NBA/NFL. We also have a government that encourages this through subsidies to oil, coal, and air transportation and lack of regulation of polluting industries.
What's really missing in China and the U.S. is a carbon tax with all revenues used to subsidize the purchase of green energy alternatives, both in transportation and the grid. With both increased development and half-way measures to halt climate change, CO2 pollution in the atmosphere is still increasing, now with methane from natural gas drilling becoming an increasingly large component. Common ground must be found between the two largest polluting countries on Earth; and when this happens, it will be an engine for both increased trade and a common purpose for the people of both countries to confront global warming/climate change.
As Science is involved, it will also be a platform to reduce censorship. The major problem now is the United States is not leading. On this issue alone, there is good reason to remove the Trump government as soon as possible. Even the green light just given for more war in Syria is part of this; both sides are supplied with arms by the U.S., and war is a huge pollution industry.
Unlike Kristof, I don't like China and all it represents.
The negatives far outweigh any global good China has done.
2
Nicholas, in a related article today about Apple and the protest of Hong Kong citizens the “Times” writes:
“With its reversal, Apple joins a growing list of corporations that are trying to navigate the fraught political situation between China and Hong Kong, where antigovernment protests have unfolded for months.”
However, the people of Hong Kong are not protesting the ‘government’, they are actually protesting the Empire — which only ‘poses’ as a government!
Empire is the exact polar-opposite of any government — even a terribly flawed government. Empire is not a government in any sense, and Empire is antithetical to any government — Empire is total anti-government.
Empire is only Empire — whether it is visibly, palpably, overtly, and oppressively Empire, or whether it is a form of Empire which very effectively disguises itself as not being an Empire.
As such, the Hong Kong people, who have been peacefully confronting what they correctly perceive as external Empire for four months, in the streets, and with as much as 25% of their entire population actually provide a great “learning moment”, as Obama was want to say, to ‘we the American people’ — since it is ‘we the American people’ who have not yet learned how to effectively and peacefully confront this much more sophisticated, camouflaged, and Disguised Global Crony Capitalist EMPIRE which is only nominally HQed in, and merely ‘posing’ as our formerly “promising” and sometimes progressive country (PKA) America.
3
@Alan MacDonald
Nicholas, OMG!
Now that I finished your column my heart sank, when you concluded:
“I worry even more about the rise of nationalism in China inculcated in part by the Communist Party’s education system and propaganda machine.”
“Their” old fashioned, crude, shoddy, and oh so obvious “propaganda machine” — which even Emperor Trump’s ‘knuckle-draggers’ could easily spot as propaganda?
Get with it, Nicholas, the most advanced “propaganda machine” in the world is the one that even a “Times” columnist can’t apparently recognize — let alone effectively diagnose in its form, structure, and “Quiet American” disguise of this ‘media/propaganda/TVad’ sector of the Empire. [Only one of the seven sectors of this Disguised Global Crony Capitalist Empire.].
As faux Emperor Trump might say if he understood it, “The PRC is a ‘nothing-burger’ when it comes to propaganda that the people can’t and don’t even sense”
—
1
Perhaps if our president had been voicing support for Hong Kong's protestors, Morey's comments would have been lower on Beijing's priority list. Our president is so blinded by admiration for Xi, that the cause of freedom and democracy in Hong Kong has been abandoned. Shame on us for allowing that to happen.
4
@John Riley
Trump mocks Coaches Steve Kerr and Gregg Popovich for somewhat muting their deeply-felt revulsion to the Chinese gangster state. But when and where does the US President speak out for our values?
We only see Trump eviscerating them.
I think the Chinese look at Trump , the partisan conflicts in Congress and the ubiquitous gun violence and decide they'll stick with Xi and Communism. If you were them is it really such a hard choice ? I say this having overseen the China operation of my US based company.
2
Hmm, it's a small step isn't it, from investing in technologies that circumvent the Chinese Firewall to directly interfering in Chinese domestic policy.
Didn't the Russians do something similar during the last US presidential election?
2
Why not all 3 steps?
I would add to those that the Five Eyes (and allied intelligence communities) should undertake cyber operations targeting Chinese censorship systems.
With respect to internet circumvention: I have serious doubts that this would work either. The mainlanders I speak with genuinely do not seem interested in free expression, freedom of speech, and the absence of censorship in the press. They genuinely do not understand the outside world's inclination to rock the boat. The Enlightenment has not reached the Middle Kingdom.
2
We are not only failing to counter Xi's malign actions but our president is sending him leverage to use against us.
Responding to his call to investigate the Bidens' actions in and about China, President Xi could cement his hold on our executive with an implicit threat: support China's actions in Hong Kong, Taiwan and with Uighur "re-education" or he unleashes of communiques (real or invented) between China and the US showing how our president sold out America (again).
Pooh-Bear is one thing. An emasculated American democracy is quite another.
“Leveling the playing field” by making information available to all through the internet seems a good thing. It’s lately been a concern because the river of factual info is polluted with half truths and lies, and much of the masses have a hard time understanding what is what. China, and all countries for that matter, are probably better off with unfettered access to internet, but it’s not as clear as it once was.
"I’ve seen over the decades how a freer flow of information eventually can liberate minds and peoples, and the world would be better off if that process unfolded in China."
I have serious doubts about this statement, when we are seeing closing of the minds in many countries with supposedly free flow of information. I do not think that this prescription of yours is going to work.
1
In China, Xi, the autocrat, is dangerous in his control of information and everything else. It is scarier to me, however, that enough of the people (including those in control of our government) in the USA are okay with this in our dear, all knowing, large handed, genius leader.
1
China may be building a university per week, but it seems incapable of teaching its people even basic manners while traveling. I spent the summer abroad in Korea and Indonesia, and I was flabbergasted by the rudeness of Chinese tourists. I assume it was a result of conditions within China—-lack of privacy, overpopulated, crowded conditions, etc.—but, boy, was it trying. We may need “humility” before Chinese educational achievement, as Kristoff says, but they certainly need to add more anthropology and global history to their curriculum.
7
Corporations, and CEOs, who benefit from sales or factories in China must declare these benefits as high risk in their disclosures, and be prepared to walk away... or state that they are defacto members of the CCP.
1
I think we overestimate the benefits of unrestrained captialism and underestimate the advantages of central planning, if it is done intelligently. Of course, it frequently isn't done intelligently, but sometime it is....as in the case of the Chinese economy for the past half century compared to that of North Korea.
In theory, the collective participation of the entire society should lead to better decision-making. But this is not true if the mass media distracts the public by silly games, sleazy entertainment, and an editorial focus that divides the working class with the diabolical purpose of preserving an elite control of the decision-making process. Through the intelligent control of the media, the elite neutralizes any potential benefit of democracy.
The Communist elite in China have a different approach to control that is equally effective.
2
It's rare these days to find any sort of reporting or commentary in the US media that reflects an understanding of China's complexity. US reporting on China has become pretty much all red scare, all the time -- China as the monolithic authoritarian state with which the United States is locked in a battle for global supremacy. Thanks, Nick, for these informed and balanced thoughts on how we should deal with China's attempts to export censorship.
Your point about child mortality is well taken. (Shame on us for not doing better.) But China lifted all those people out of poverty basically by undoing all the harm it had previously done economically. Taiwan avoided Mao's mistakes and reached the mainland's current GDP per-capita level long ago.
2
Small point: yes, I agree we all need to work hard to support and improve public education for all children in the United States. However, schools in Shanghai are an exception in China and are in no way representative of the schooling that the vast majority of children in China are receiving.
3
Having lived in China for 20 years, I am appalled at how much we have given away to China. And it continues. Answer me this: Why do we allow about 300,000 Chinese students attend our US universities? People always mention shared values and all that. But that logic has now been disavowed. Why should Chinese students, loyal to the "Motherland" be allowed to get advanced degrees from Harvard, Yale, etc, to the exclusion of US students? We are strategic and values competitors...This burns me up...the Chinese look at it as a giveaway that they happily exploit. We just blindly imagine a beautiful world...to the exclusion of our strategic advantage.
18
@SageRiver Much of the recent basic R&D at US universities in the last three decades has been powered by Chinese graduate students, post-docs and scientist/researchers. They have provided the labor at the lab bench and the intellect in experiment, hypothesis and theory design and implementation. US science has immensely benefitted from their hard work and intellectual contributions as well as the rest of humanity. The real question here is why the US makes it so difficult for foreign students and scientists studying in the US to gain permanent residency and a pathway to citizenship if the want to stay. We would all benefit from a more open immigration policy to allowing foreign students and scientists educated and trained in US universities and research institutions.
3
The Chinese pay exorbitant tuition to attend these elite schools. They pay top price to attend state universities too. Hard to resist the US dollars they recycle into our nation now. Ditto for the way they gobble up real estate on the coasts paying with cash - see Calif and NY.
1
Unlimited freedoms come at a high price. I’m thinking of the First and Second Amendments, mass shootings and the use of social media for mind control.
When we push back on China, I agree we have a lot to be humble about.
4
@Tim
Well, at least Americans are better shots and can debate better than the unarmed, Government-imposed-ignorant mainland Chinese.
1
the term consumer boycott is going to have a whole new significance. We will see unprecedented responsiveness from the same corporations who care so little for American society.
4
Great ideas. All we need is a leader who can manage the heavy lifting and can spell. The US is out of commission until we sort out our internal problems. trump's retreat from the world has left a vacuum that China is happy to fill.
9
Mr. Kristof,
The Chinese success in nearly eliminating poverty is awe inspiring. In Confucian thought, providing for the economic well-being of the people is the first responsibility of a regime. Afterwards, immediately, comes education towards humaneness, 'ren,' and virtue. Xi's China is on the edge of that education, "a new university established each week," and it will be fascinating to watch that civilization develop. China is not an adversary, or if it is, it is a different sort of enemy. China does not represent a danger to its neighbors; it is not imperial in that sense, its claims limited to Chinese inhabited areas such as Taiwan or to tiny off-shore islets whose occupation by an enemy of China might be dangerous.
I read XI as a claimant to the traditional imperial throne, with the party hierarchy serving as the very traditional group of eunuchs who serve the emperor in high administrative positions. The US equivalent to this group of eunuchs would be the cabinet Trump has now assembled (some even have the traditional squeaky voices).
Whereas Xi is a suitably strong, sharp, and ruthless man to begin a dynasty, to accept the mantle of heaven, Trump is the sort of madman tossed up by dynasties as they weaken, as rulers who must, for the sake of the people and of the state, be removed.
I thank Mr. Kristoff for forcing me to think.
1
"its claims limited to Chinese inhabited areas such as Taiwan or to tiny off-shore islets...". You sure skirted around that elephant, Hong Kong.
1
Mr. Kristoff is playing with fire here. Remember what happened to booksellers in Hong Kong when they tried to publish information on Xi’s family. The better approach is the one taken by the current administration: respect for China as an arbiter of its customs and authority while also strong support for our own autonomy and best interests, be they even to pull the NBA out of China if necessary.
2
The Trump Administration is doing its best to throttle the WTO.
Mr Blustein's proposal would be likely doomed from the start.
Encourage China to stop blocking news sites and social media platforms? Be prepared to be laughed out of the room. In the age of 4chan, 8chan, micro-targeting and foreign interference in elections, I’m sure they will listen to all the great benefits of free speech and social media. China is starting to use its economic power to impose its own demands on other nations, much as the US has done for the past century. We certainly don’t have the moral authority to dictate anything to them, and with the current trend of undermining global institutions, no else does either. We voted for a world where it’s every nation for themselves, and now we are going to get it.
10
No, Mr. Kristof, President Xi does not want to censor the Western world. But he does not want it to keep profiting from China and exploiting Chinese people while completely ignoring their wishes, sensibilities and interests either. No one forces NBA to market itself in and expand into China. They can all (players, managers, owners and even the commissioner) twit their support for Hong Kong democracy and even independence all they want. They just shouldn't expect to keep selling their overpriced merchandise and streaming their overhyped product there then. It is very simple really. I do not understand, why is that so hard to grasp?
7
And what are the wishes of the Chinese people?
Can we really know?
The only thing we get is Chinese Communist Party propaganda.
1
“Ignoring their wish”? Do people from one country have an obligation to comply with another country’s wish? Your comment shows a very arrogant mentality because you seems to think people in China is the center of world whose wishes are the command of others. So I guess you can say Xi isn’t censoring Americans. In reality, it’s more like he is trying to command Americans on what is appropriate for them to say or think, using money as a tool. Second point: it’s funny Chinese always think countries trading with China should comply with Chinese sentimentality. Don’t forget, China runs a trade surplus with America. China is making a lot of money from Americans. So don’t you think perhaps Chinese has a stronger obligation to respect with Americans’ wish, value and sentimentality? The fundamental problem with your thinking is in your value system, money means everything and people is supposed to be lorded over for money.
I find it amusing that an American would invoke the WTO as a useful vehicle in trade disputes. Canada has consistently and continually won WTO rulings against the USA in the softwood trade dispute since 1982. The USA, just refuses to abide by these non binding decisions and continues to (unfairly) do business as usual.
And that is negotiations between allies.
I think you will discover that China will follow suit and just outright disregard any WTO decision.
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
9
Brave Canadian.
Norway paid dearly when Liu Xiaobo was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2010 (China didn’t understand that non-authoritarian governments do not exercise the same powers it does). If the international community stood together with individual targets of China’s ire, China would not have same power to bully.
38
‘He who pays the piper calls the tune.”
In accepting big Chinese money as the price of expanding the Chinese market, the NBA has become beholden to Chinese influence. Most of that money has already been spent on obscenely overpaid players’ salaries and various superfluous trinkets and other meaningless things.
This problem has a very straightforward solution: If the NBA stops taking Chinese money, its members will not be beholden to Chinese influence and would be free to speak their mind freely on issues of concern to them.
Of course the players would have to take a pay cut as would the NBA executives.
Freedom has a price. Is the NBA willing to pay it?
13
Maybe there is another way: boycott Chinese products and make the Chinese pay instead of making Americans pay. It’s called a trade war. That’s one thing Trump did right.
6
Mr. Kristof may favor engagement, but the alternative is just as attractive. There is absolutely nothing that forces companies to do business in China. It's born purely out of profit motive and hopes of growth. But in the case of the NBA, it's not like there is a reasonable replacement. China doesn't have its own LeBron James and Steph Curry. I suppose the Chinese people could start watching their own home-grown basketball teams, but it's hard to go from watching world-class competition to second-rate athletics. I used to live in Europe and quite liked football while there. Watching soccer in the US is uninteresting precisely because it's not as good as what I'm used to.
Maybe it's time the Chinese people learned there are repercussions for their beliefs. Getting offended so easily is a sign of weakness. The entire world has the freedom to criticize the US without risk of being banned from our economy. We don't have to agree on everything to do business with someone. That's the beauty of commerce--it doesn't require adherence to dogma. The Chinese seem to want to tie commerce to a belief system that is less free and less open than ours. If that's the choice they wish to make, then perhaps we should do business elsewhere.
I think it is long past time for Western companies to realize that doing business in China isn't an opportunity, but a risk. As a long-time emerging markets investor, I've started discounting businesses with exposure to China for this very reason.
49
@Souvient
The US bans entire countries from our economy if we disagree their political views, such as Cuba. China is more open to doing business despite ideological differences than the US.
2
Let me get this straight.
Trump pressures Ukraine to investigate a politician's family member benefiting from daddy's position, and it's an impeachment offense. Like totally obvi.
But Kristof wants the American government to pressure China by threatening to blackmail Xi about his family benefiting from his position, and it's brilliant. Like totally obvi.
Thanks for the clarification, Nick.
4
A totally insane suggestion by the usually sane Mr. Kristof. The story of corruption, if true, and carefully vetted, should be revealed anyway, as a matter of justice, but not used in a sleazy attempt at blackmail. Mr. Kristof had evidently been drinking too much coffee, or something.
US and China are two different countries, and US president don’t have a constitutional obligation to a foreign government’s leader, ok? Do you get the clarification now, Frank?
1
@Frank One expects readers of the NYT to understand and apply the fact that Trump has sought to get other countries involved in helping him and his chorus to eliminate a potential rival in our own next presidential election! Did you miss reading that part?
As usual, the "whataboutism" is a failure.
It has been, is, and always will be, legitimate for our or any other nation to gather and use intelligence about foreign leaders, particularly against hostile foreign dictators who are engaged in global strategic hostilities against the United States -- like Xi Jinping, who has just made himself president-for-life and is responsible for innumerable offenses against human rights -- and proud of it too!
Don't bother to compare him to Donald Trump. Trump is a horrible man who makes horrible decisions, but unlike Xi, he is also an ignorant, incompetent, and mentally ill fool whom our system is likely to eject like a virus in 2020. His offenses are below Xi's by orders of magnitude.
And no Chinese voter ever had, or ever will have, the opportunity to vote against Xi Jinping.
1
I agree with the substance of your point. The recent China/NBA dustup made me realize a hard truth: We have ceded all of our values to profit. What happens when the new Avengers movies isnt released there for example? There is a real and obvious lever to exert pressure there, one I believe has more focused and direct pressure than tariffs. But it involves companies saying they have a strong enough ideological footing to only gross 600 mil instead of 1 bil. This is the crux, the value that will always rise to the top is profit. Until we have a sea change in this regard it will be more dissembling hypocrisy in the name of capitalism.
9
Universities without open inquiry, success based on stolen western tech, and ecodisaster. I wish we had courted Kazakhstan.
12
Sure. Nicholas, but what are those schools and universities teaching?
7
Interesting opinion piece. The three suggested steps are not going to happen. We lost moral authority on China when we let it overrun Tibet without a whimper.
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Another great piece that needs to be reflected on if one cares about human rights.
Even the Marvel Cinematic Universe gave into Chinese pressure to rework "Dr. Strange" and more recently changes were made to "Top Gun: Maverick” to appease the Chinese govt. Who would ever have thought this of the mighty American cinema?
We should all be Morey, á la "Je suis Charlie" in a slight variation, rather than the kowtowers who seem to be driven by monetary gain rather than democratic principles. (at least we should all have been him until his boss unscrupulously forced him to basically backtrack).
In any case, "Fight for freedom. Stand with Hong Kong."
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I agree with this column in general, but the comment about Shanghai's public schools is incorrect. The Shanghai test results are a total fraud. They are based on an extremely selective set of schools. It's like proclaiming that LA's public schools are the best in the country (or the world) based on results from only Beverly Hills, ignoring Compton.
Dan Kravitz
12
It is time for Corporate America - where companies produce slick ads and websites about how they are socially conscious, how they have core values and commitments to society - to start living up to these words, and stop appeasing Dictator Xi. Put your espoused values above your quarterly profits.
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"When the N.B.A. moved into China in the early 2000s, it made a plausible argument that engagement would help extend our values to China. Instead, the Communist Party is exploiting N.B.A. greed to extend its values to the United States."
Did you really think the dollar wouldn't win out over human rights?
6
The fact that China has opened one new university a week is overwhelmed by a repressiveness that makes Putin's Russia seem almost democratic by comparison.
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Mr. Kristof, concerning your insistence on giving credit to the Chinese Communist Party for China's progress on poverty, health and education, please compare apples to apples. Intellectual honesty dictates that we recognize culture and ethnicity as possible factors in social development, and that we thus favor comparisons between like populations.
Everywhere - without exception - that people of Chinese origin have enjoyed freedom, they have become vastly wealthier, healthier and better educated than in mainland China. There is thus every reason to believe that had the Tiananmen Square movement succeeded in ushering in democracy, far more Chinese would have been "lifted out of poverty" than under the CCP.
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@John Corey It would be just as accurate to assert that the rapidity of lifting so many out of poverty came about in spite of the Chinese government, rather than thanks to it.
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China didn't lift anyone out of poverty, we did.
Western elites, the 0.1%, immiserated our working class by transferring our manufacturing base to China, while getting fantastically rich in the process. The 5%, aka the accessory class, of which you and most of the readers of the newspaper are members, did quite well. Everyone else got debt penury, broken communities, alcohol, opioids and suicide.
The Chinese elites went along with it because they correctly saw it as an opportunity. Spreading a portion of the wealth around was designed to buy social peace while enhancing control.
News flash, it all worked. The only problem is the logic of amoral avarice is there's no such thing as 'enough' and the elites were unable to restrain themselves while things were still sustainable.
We are headed toward a backlash and whether it's right-wing or left-wing isn't going to matter. Both models of social change have racked up quite a body count.
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Finally, someone with sense! Thank you. I’m so sick of hearing constantly how CCP is the sole reason for the economic development, conveniently ignoring just how exactly this economic development came about. Opening the country was a good policy on the part of CCP, but china’s development in the 80’s and 90’s was only moderate. It really sky rocketed in the last twenty years, coinciding with its entry to WTO and the mass transfer of jobs from western countries to China.
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@Dr Duh. How well you said it. Those who direct the capital and supply chain decisions of the US manufacturers made the difference. While it is far from wholly on them how the outcome of politics, propaganda and corrupt behavior within PRC came about, certainly the effects of lower quality consumer goods, factory pollution, hollowing of US industries, the trade deficit and the amount of US bonds debt held by PRC are directly attributable to the shift of manufacturing.
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I doubt social peace is what it bought. Maybe social superiority
No, Nick, let's not pause to remember the positive things you mentioned that have happened under the CPC. Let's never imply that China's brutal, illegitimate dictatorship is in any way responsible for the prosperity there today. China's millions of quick minds and nimble fingers have succeeded economically in spite of, not because of, the Communist party.
To see this, simply consider what would have happened if the KMT had won the Chinese civil war. China only began to succeed economically after discarding its bizarre communist ideals and mimicking the successful practices of countries like Taiwan and South Korea.
I don't agree with Senator Tom Cotton on much, but his statement on the 70th anniversary of the CPC heist of China is worth repeating:
"To see the price of the PRC's anniversary celebration, look no further than what's happening in Hong Kong: a ceaseless war against those who wish to live in freedom. From the Great Leap Forward to the Cultural Revolution to the camps in Xinjiang today, it has been a ghoulish 70 years of Chinese Communist Party control."
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@Robert
The KMT winning the Chinese CIvil War!?!?
The Nationalists were both corrupt and incompetent.
Thanks for making me think a bit differently about China - as well as pondering what the future might hold if we take appropriate actions...
"China has lifted more people out of poverty more quickly than any nation in history." First of all, how can that be proven? Secondly, so what? It's lifted people out of poverty into what, one must ask. Into a state-controlled system of surveillance without comparison anywhere else in the world. Into a system of "social credit" where those who misbehave or cross the authorities lose their standing in society, are penalized and virtually excommunicated. A society where those belonging to minorities of any kind are marked for special observation at best, brainwashing at worst. And as usual, not only in China, nationalism is the excuse used by the state to keep people distracted and oppressed. Who cares how well-educated they are? And even that statement applies only to those who are fortunate enough to belong to the elite.
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I also worry about some of the trends. Will Taiwan be next after Hong Kong?
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@Jean wrote: "Will Taiwan be next after Hong Kong?"
No. The Taiwanese have weapons, something the people of Hong Kong should be investing in, big time.
"Engagement would help extend our values to China" has never been a plausible engagement for any similar financially-motivated initiatives, only at best a naive justification, more likely a cynical one. Recent events in Hong Kong and Xinjiang should have made this clear, if Tianamen did not (and that was when China was much less powerful economically). And current events in our own western democracies should also make it clear that our freedoms and "values" have limitations when money becomes the primary political force, especially in this administration.
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Trying to make any stand against another country's moral failings is absurd in the Trump era. That's a very sad statement, but true.
Also, it's not so hard to get around the Great Chinese Firewall. Just google it.
I think, based on business interactions with Chinese colleagues, that at least the class of people I dealt with are not bothered at all by the behavior of the Chinese government. I haven't done any statistical survey, though.
But, I think they're pretty satisfied with the huge material improvement to their lives in the last 20-30 years. And I think they're happy with the clear prioritization that their command economy provides, especially as they watch China move to what they see as their rightful place as the world's number one power. Big investments in green power, AI, education, and third world countries would seem to make them unstoppable.
So what was that about Pooh Bear and the NBA?
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Most people in China actually do not use VPN, so the firewall does do its job. As for your observation if ordinary Chinese don’t care about human rights abuse as long as they are happy with material gain, I’d say it’s true. But is it right thou? That’s exactly the problem even some Chinese think is wrong with their society: it’s all about the money but no moral, fairness, compassion for the weak and poor, and rule of law. There are consequence of such mentality and behavior. It legitimizes oppression and allows it to flourish. And sooner and later, like the bad air pollution, it will encroach on other countries. Actually, it already does, as the NBA thing shows. So the question is, do you want to be like your Chinese colleagues, willing to be indifferent and sell out democratic ideal and practices of freedom of speech and press, pillars that protect our way of life, for money?
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"...some day there may be a knock on the door, and there’ll be “Uncle Xi” sternly asking us to hand over Pooh Bear."
It's already too late. As one old enough to have been raised on a copy of the original Winnie the Pooh with its charming illustrations by E.H. Shepard, I can assure the gentle reader that Pooh's effective demise came in the 1960s when the Milne family sold his soul to the Disney empire. Disney immediately replaced Shepard's distinctive drawings with its trademark vapid corporate cute. Nothing Xi could do at this late date could begin to equal the artistic devastation wrought decades ago by Disney.
Kristof emphasizes the need to balance Chinese thought control, which we all despise, with the unprecedented Chinese economic miracle, which we all applaud. What he fails to do is explore the connection between the two.
There can be no serious doubt that the social discipline required to create the Chinese economic miracle was, to a significant degree, enabled by the horrid thought control imposed by the Communist party. And, just as obviously, the social chaos now engulfing America is, to a substantial degree, the product of the unfettered hedonistic individualism that we so proudly proclaim as a superior mode of existence, as shaped and promoted by our wise corporate masters.
It's not as simple as we would like it to be. And you can't solve a problem that you refuse to see. Both systems have strengths and flaws. We will need to discover a viable middle ground.
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Irony to see you say "I love China."
@sykider i do not think it is ironic for mr. kristof to say he loves China. loving someone does not mean you cannot criticize that person. it does not mean you have to agree with everything that person did and does. nothing is black or white. that is exactly what mr. kristof is trying to demonstrate - the vast grey area between the achievements and the brutality of Chinese government's actions. to love someone or something means to embrace its black, white and all the greys in between. the motivation behind constructive criticism is genuine intention. i believe in the potential of China and its people, and support pointing out issues to help them self-reflect and grow. i see mr. kristof's article did just that.
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You can’t understand why Kristof can say he loves China while at the same time making suggestion on how to deal with the Chinese government shows you have the same problem Chinese people do: they can’t tell the difference between the different concepts of nation, culture, people, government and political party. They equate CCP as the nation. So any criticism of the CCP government is an automatic attack on the nation or its people or its culture.
The Chinese government is panicking because they have chosen the strategy of control for their 1.4 billion people. Don't think the West doesn't engage in some strategies of control as well. There are other options to have a vibrant, intelligent society that are more open and capitalize on the marketplace of ideas.
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"Uncle Xi" and Chinese rulers are viewing the events in Hong Kong with absolute dread. Their worst fear is that kind of unrest will come to mainland China, ergo the iron fist approach.
Mr. Kristof is even-handed, giving China credit where credit is due. They truly believe their system is superior to ours and have said so. The problem with Trump's trade negotiations is they insist China re-make their economic model in our image. That will never work, and the most they can expect is a limited deal to reduce tariffs and tension.
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Hong Kong is a China's domestic problem. We don't mess around or attack other country's sovereignty.
We have to respect other country's culture and people's feeling. We don't want a foreigner come to US criticizing African Americans or Hispanic Americans in public. Or we don't go to Saudi Arabia claiming that people have the freedom to eat pork or drink wine. No big deal. You can say that in private. But you just don't do it on public domain especially you are a public figure.
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No, actually I don’t have to respect another country ‘s repressive actions when they are reaching beyond their borders. China has its citizens stationed in multiple Western countries, spying on the host country and disciplining other Chinese nationals who don’t toe the party line.
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@Usok Freedom and liberty are international values that transcend national borders. We need to speak up and stand up for universal rights when they are trampled upon like it is happening now in Hong Kong.
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@usok
The comparison of criticizing eating pork in Saudi Arabia and defending human rights in Hong Kong is a massive false equivalency. No one is saying we should overturn a cultural trait. If we were upset they were using chopsticks over forks that would be a different issue.
The problem is the mass incarceration of a persecuted religious minority in China’s western provinces, the repression of freedom of expression in Hong Kong, the belief Beijing has a right to claim rule over the entire South Pacific, the way the CCP feverishly guards all access to information, the strict prohibitions on land ownership which lock people into poverty... I could go on, but my point is: since the end of WWII and the establishment of the United Nations, many of these issues have been regarded by the world as basic global human rights. The US has not only defended these issues, but has been seen as the global champion of these issues. Hong Kong protestors have been flying the US flag because of their citizens belief in our value system. It isn’t perfect by any stretch, but saying we should defend human rights is absolutely not interfering in cultural norms.
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There are ways to "push back" that are guaranteed to fail and there are others that can have some reasonable expectations of coming to agreement.
Guaranteed to fail are methods designed t publicly embarrass China. The Chinese people have a tremendous amount of pride and they bristle at those who fail to make the slightest effort to understand their culture. The NBA coach who provoked the latest fury failed to understand the difference between being a business leader and his personal opinion about events in Hong Kong.
The president's "trade war" is a loser because China as a former colony will never allow itself to be pushed around by arrogant imperialists. It is guaranteed to fight back, and it has the substantial resources to do this. Trying to embarrass the Xi family is a loser...the NYT got banned in China when it revealed (through publicly available information) the fortunes of the family of a previous premier).
But Kristof outlines reasonable approaches. One of those is in regard to internet freedom pursued through the WTO.
China goes through cycles of barely imaginable internal struggles about once every 20 years. All students of Chinese history know this. Who could have predicted the rise of China after the Cultural Revolution. The Chinese people have this habit of solving their own affairs. They ahve done it before and they will do it again, no matter what the outside world thinks.
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Mr. Kristof,
As always, thank you for this piece.
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Let’s face it. Winnie the Pooh is an abhorrent character. He should Rest In Peace. Any step in that direction deserves our thanks.
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I love AA Milne...
Idealistic Americans just can't seem to comprehend communist China. They cling on to an illusion that if we give China free access to our economy somehow the proletarian will rebel against communism and push for democratic reform. The reality is the ordinary Chinese citizen doesn't understand freedom. As long as there's food on the table and a roof over their heads, they are content. However, if for some reason the NBA stood up to China and the games were blacked out, there would be 500 million basketball fans questioning Xi Jinping's decision to ban the NBA. That might actually lead to protests.
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Just like the average American doesn't really understand Freedom, having never experienced it.
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Basketball may be a really big deal to some folks. I honestly do not think that being able or unable to watch grown men playing with a ball has as much social or political import as some readers are asserting. If the state decides that basketball is anti Chinese, basketball will disappear from China.
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
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The tragedy about today's China is how the nation's long-held aspiration to acquire globally significant wealth and strength has finally come to fruition, and yet it has come accompanied by stifling repressiveness and a complete lack of certain fundamental liberties taken for granted in many economically advanced countries, Asian ones included.
As such, the prosperity Chinese people enjoy is a defective kind of prosperity that no amount of extra wealth or power in the future can on their own make less defective; the only thing that will do that is a true opening up of China, by which I mean China becoming a free and democratic country.
To those who would claim that democracy is not a universal value and not right for China because of its size or some other reason, better minds than mine (namely Amartya Sen in his "Democracy as a Universal Value") have offered persuasive refutations of that claim, so I will not enter into any detailed discussion here.
Suffice it to say that, as long as China grants its citizens no meaningful political or intellectual liberty, persecutes ethnic minority and dissident groups, and shows scant respect for concepts such as rule of law or the separation of powers, the scope for the burgeoning of human happiness there, as well as China's ability to project its power abroad, will remain seriously circumscribed.
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Won’t it be nice if the people of China had the freedom to engage with us Americans here and challenge us on our viewpoints.
Humanity needs a flourishing democracy in China for us to effectively be able to tackle the challenges ahead. This economic arrangement has served its purpose.
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@Linus
Any attempts from Chinese citizens to voice their opinions on American forums will be quickly labeled as communist trolls.
Why do we have to wait until China slaughters thousands before we release information on the Xi crime family? If you are so worried about China holding us hostage then why not start by divulging that information and let the chips fall where they may? And why limit ourselves to Xi? Whether some Chinese embezzler is deemed criminal or patriot is determined by their place in Xi's universe, which is why, with fear of imminent confiscation, so much capital leaves the nation, much of it ending up laundered in US real estate. Kleptocracies, whether in China or the US all operate in pretty much the same fashion, only adapting to local conditions as necessary.
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Sternly asking us to hand over Pooh?
Or disappearing anyone who stands for free speech? Like Xi wants to freely do as soon as possible in Hong Kong? And then the rest of the world?
It’s essential to keep in mind, perhaps as part of those more than one things at a time, that the brutal dictatorship of China intends to become the sole superpower of the world. That includes all of us.
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Elegant writing, as always. But, it’s over, Sir. Trump was the icing on the cake, for the decline of the USA. Unless Democrats absolutely sweep the 2020 Election, we are done. It’s the Chinese Century. It was, mostly, a great Country while it lasted.
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Does “mostly a great country” include slavery and the systemic genocide of Native Americans?
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@Wayne Johnson PhD
Absolutely.
Otherwise the adjective would have been “totally”
a great nation.
4
@Wayne Johnson PhD Whataboutism is annoying! It's 2019 and comparisons to 19th century America are completely irrelevant.
Slavery has a long, very long, history in China. It already had an ancient, global history before the first enslaved Africans ever reached Virginia in 1619. During all that time, nobody, not even the mildest philosophers and religious leaders, thought there was anything wrong about it. That idea came from western Christians, and only in the 19th century.
Over its history, China, or rather the many forms of "China" that have come and gone during the past 4000 years, has gotten a lot of blood on its hands from minority or subject peoples within its reach. Not one such group but many of them. It's doing the same thing today, almost as far as possible in the modern world, in Tibet and with the Uighurs.
You're darn right the United States is "mostly a great country!" And other than in financial terms, China....isn't.
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This isn't just wise, it's useful in a practical way.
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What a great read. Thanks as always, Nicholas.
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Hear, hear, Mr. Kristof!
A superb and timely essay, capped off by this sentence:
"With China, it’s always helpful to hold at least two contradictory ideas in our heads at the same time."
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@A Thanks for reading! I once gave a talk about China at Harvard, confessing my ambivalence, and a professor approached me afterward with this bit of wisdom: China is always best approached with ambivalence!
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@Nicholas Kristof
Especially by westerners who think they know China.
A wise man who had lived in China for sixty years wrote nothing about China - when he lived there after the first ten years he wrote a 400 page book, after thirty years he wrote a 100 page book.
A wise man you could learn from, Mr. Kristof.
3
Sure, but also, how often do we grant America that generosity? Isn't it becoming far more common not to? America is only ever the oppressor, not the oppressed. The institution of slavery, not the soldiers who died fighting the war that ended it. Jim Crowe, not Martin Luther King.
7
There are many things I don't like about China such as lack of freedoms. However, I urge those condemning China's censorship of Western media to ask themselves if they read non-Western media. Why not? You know, it isn't a bad habit to consider an alternative perspective. Many a time, one doesn't realise they're in a bubble until they step out of one.
The article talks extensively about China's propaganda. But I think the most effective propaganda is that right under noses, which we don't recognise and are yet so accustomed to. In the aftermath of the invasion of Iraq which triggered instability killing 300,000 Iraqis, I think the notion that the US is a protector of human rights is propaganda in itself. Propaganda, is by definition, the promotion of a belief which isn't true.
And how does one measure commitment to human rights? Did China's spy agency install dictators throughout Latin America in the 1960s and 70s, or give tip-offs about dissidents. Even as the 2nd largest economy today, with a large clout, China refrains from the interference and interventions which have turned countries upside down and caused untold suffering for citizens. Is human rights only measured by a government's domestic record? What about its foreign policy?
It is exactly this interference which China fears, and rightly so. Why question influence operations by Russia when this article openly gloats about the "circumvention technologies" the US is using to spread its narrative to Chinese?
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@Jack Agreed. What's sad is that China's people don't have access to accurate information about what their country does. We do, and refuse to access/acknowledge it.
42
This is a false equivalency.
Mr. Kristoff was very nuanced in separating the people of China and their potential from the Communist Party that governs it and I applaud him for that.
19
It’s not so much Chinese propaganda that’s an issue but Chinese government censorship of ideas they don’t believe in. The free exchange of ideas is how we get progress and people shouldn’t be punished for expressing a view they think is important.
11
Stop citing improvements in the lives of Chinese as justification for the CPP’s existence:
1) China was starting from an incredibly low baseline due to the disastrous policies of the Mao-era CPP. The CPP shouldn’t get credit for “improving” a country they wrecked in the first place just by replacing disastrous policies with non-disastrous policies.
2) The foundations of China’s growth was set in the 80s, pre-Tiananmen Square massacre when the CPP was comparatively liberal. Since then, it’s gotten more and more repressive, especially under Xi.
3) Other Asian countries such as Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, and—yes—Hong Kong were similarly devastated after WWII. They all showed as impressive growth as China, under mostly democratic governments. (Even Singapore is liberal compared to China.)
If the Nationalists had won the Civil War, every indication is that China would be even more economically strong, politically stable, and culturally rich than it is now. There is no justification for the CPP’s repressive policies, even economic ones.
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@Scott
"They all showed as impressive growth as China, under mostly democratic governments."
This is categorically untrue. Taiwan didn't have free elections until 1992. Prior to that it was a single-party state.
South Korea was a military dictatorship for decades after the Korean War, which ended in 1953. Thousands were killed by the military in the 1980 Gwangju Uprising. Democratisation began in the 1980s.
The rapid industrialisation of these aforementioned countries began when they were dictatorships not democracies.
Now, Singapore - where I grew up - always has had elections which have been free and fair post-independence (even critics of the Singapore government and independent observers have verified this). While the political landscape has been dominated by one party, I honestly can't fathom the country progressing as robustly otherwise.
Democratic freedoms are a worthy ideal but we need to stop pretending democracy is everything and devoid of its flaws. Some consolidation of powers by the state is needed to ensure societal progress. Many developing countries with a democratic setup did not see much progress in the post-colonial era (of course this is true of some dictatorships too).
I believe (most) of the Asian countries you cited saw such robust economic progress (from "Third World to First" as they say in Singapore) because they were spared the gridlock and partisanship so rife in a democracy.
(Japanese politics has been dominated by the LDP)
59
@Scott
"If the Nationalists had won the Civil War, every indication is that China would be even more economically strong, politically stable, and culturally rich than it is now."
India is a democracy. In 1980, it's per capita income exceeded China's. Today it is a fifth of China's.
While India has made progress of its own, let us not ignore the advantages China's model affords it (think decisiveness in enacting economic reform).
Also, I think you underestimate how difficult it is to engineer progress in a country of 1.3 billion. That's 4x the US population. China facilitated the largest reduction in human poverty in the last 4 decades. It's easier said than done. The literacy rate is now 96%. Bear in mind, it takes much longer to become literate in Mandarin than in English, which uses the Roman alphabet. In Mandarin, each character represents an individual word. Furthermore, illiteracy was rife in China when CCP (not CPP) came to power in 1949.
So a lot more was done than merely "replacing disastrous policies with non-disastrous policies" after the Mao-era.
You may not know this, but the Nationalists always viewed Tibet AND Xinjiang as part of China just like the CCP.
Also, Taiwan (where the Nationalists fled) did not have free elections until 1992. It was a one-party state prior.
It is far easier to facilitate progress in Taiwan and South Korea (which are smaller countries) than to do so in China with its 1.3 billion people.
39
@Scott Thanks for reading my column, Scott, but I partly disagree. You're right that other countries also managed strong growth, but both South Korea and Taiwan did so under brutal dictatorships. The 228 massacre in Taiwan was far worse than Tiananmen; Kwangju in South Korea may have been worse as well, although numbers are less clear. But I covered the rise of democracy in Taiwan and South Korea, and sometime I think I will cover the rise of democracy in China as well. When a country develops an educated middle class, there's pressure for political modernization. It's hard to predict when that'll happen, but I think some day it will in China. And one reason I favor Internet circumvention is that I think the free flow of information can hasten that day.
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