How ironic than many of these red state folks spout Civil War fantasies, when they are the biggest recipient of welfare state tax dollars! Talk is cheap but if they clamor for insurrection, cut of their welfare payments and their tune will change in a New York minute!!
8
Liberals own guns, too. They usually hunt with them. We have several and should it come to defending ourselves and our family and friends, we will use them.
God save America. We pray, too.
3
Like the current herd of right wing shooters?
His rhetoric is scary but, at the end of the day, nobody would shed a drop of blood for Donald Trump.
2
@KwH
Maybe not for him but there are so much anger and hatred, cynicism and mistrust boiling under the skin of certain parts of the society that any small crisis is enough to make it explode.
2
TL;DR: The right has unhinged murder fantasies.
3
We need not resort to violence. Trump is not worth anyone being injured. We can separate peacefully. All the states that want Trump as president line up over there. They can keep Trump as their president and establish a Christian republic. Deport immigrants, put gays back in the closet, black people back in the fields, tear gas children at their borders, drop bomb on babies in countries they don't like, etc. The rest of the states will be free to form a humane and just country.
5
@Karen Thornton
One nation, indivisable!!!!
1
"Civil War" is red meat for Trump's white nationalists, Nazis and those who see him as "the only one who can save you." It's a call to arms to his defenders.
Totally irresponsible not presidential.
I smell fear.
6
We live in the richest, most privileged nation in the world and yet there are fools talking about civil war. Is there no other way to reconcile our differences? Is it so bad here that we want to become like Syria? Just plain stupid talk.
3
@John
Please, Please DO NOT discount this horrific prospect!
I have witnessed it first hand, how a peaceful prosperous society can turn on itself and destroy anything and everything that once was so dear and precious to it just out of spite, hatred and revenge. Once violence starts it will feed on itself until everything and everyone is completely wiped out!
4
GOP = Grifters Only Party. Nothing more they love than a good grift on its gullibles wing.
3
"Fear wins" says the author, lamenting talk of a "civil war." These are the same progressives who constantly tell us that Trump is another Hitler, that we are going down the road to an autocracy, and that are literally living in the Handsmaid Tale.
2
A draft dodging coward who coddles dictators and now disregards the rule of law because he's throwing a tantrum? Forget impeachment, this traitor belongs in prison.
8
In Syria we had muslim fanatics, in the US we have christian fanatics aka evangelical christians!
5
Ever since the horrors of our real Civil War our country has been so blessed, except for the outlier of 9-11, to be free from armed civil strife. There have been outburst of individual violence, The Weather underground in the sixties, the recent spate of white nationalist lone wolves, the last dying breath of organized terrorism by the KKK in the Jim Crow south but as far as mass organized military revolt we have been lucky. The fact that President Trump would so blithely encourage mass violent revolt is disgusting. Much of it is macho posing by zealots cosplaying in the hills and watching Red Dawn on a loop but it could become serious with enough Presidential encouragement. If you want to see the reality of civil war rather then the twitter romance peddled by wannabe keyboard warriors take a tour of Syria and witness the hell of modern civil war. Then decide that this is what you want for our great country
2
dog whistle to the racist base.
2
We have a malignant idiot for a president.
He commands the attention of malignant idiots.
It's a circular, descending thing, much like flushing a great nation down the toilet.
6
Years ago a friend who had been in Vietnam and seen many a firefight suggested that if some group ever started a civil war with the US military that the war would be over in about 12 hours.
4
Go to any right-leaning publication that has a comment section and you'll see that civil war is a consistent fantasy among the readers. There is a truly disturbing enthusiasm among the Trump base for the prospect of taking out bloody revenge on (i.e., murdering) the coastal "elites". I have no doubt that 95% of the commenters are trolls attempting to spread hate and arm-chair heroes that have watched Rambo too many times, but as we've seen all too often, these paranoid messages do get through to dangerous/unstable people, with tragic results. This talk should not be brushed off as harmless.
4
You think this is a joke? Do you think people who feel that elites and their media megaphones are deluded, uneducated, deplorable jokes? How many times does one need to be hit over the head to see the overt, shameless attempts by the left to undo the election of 2016? How stupid can people be to understand that it's not about strengthening background checks on guns and closing gunshoe loopholes (which I am TOTALLY FOR)? It's not merely about separating families at the border. It's about a demographic that will ensure electoral victory for a party for the next half century. This is about POWER. Getting it and keeping it. This goes for both major political parties. It's no longer about debate. It's no longer about meeting in the middle the way Sam Rayburn and Eisenhower or O' Neill and Reagan did. It's about destroying one's opponent. It is about changing the culture of America and dictating to the rest of us poor slobs the way things will be in the new Progressive, Socialist society the left craves. It is, in fact, the very reason we have a Second Amendment - to ensure elites don't underestimate poor slobs like me (who hold two graduate degrees) and push their luck just a tad too far. I don't wish for a Civil War. Hardly. But I cannot guarantee many out there won't jump at such an opportunity to get it on. I am rapidly losing hope for this once great nation - a nation I served for twenty years in uniform, and would be hard-pressed to want to do for this nation as it is today.
3
Trump will never accept to loose élections, he is just saying what he will try to do.
“The key thing is that fascist politics is about identifying enemies, appealing to the in-group (usually the majority group), and smashing truth and replacing it with power,” says Yale philosopher Jason Stanley.
It doesn’t take a PhD to understand Trump’s – and his acolytes’ – “civil war” rhetoric. Luckily they are not yet in the majority.
1
If you try to stage a coup -- which is what the left has been doing since Trump took office -- then don't expect the other side to say -- fine, great, overturn the election, disenfranchise us, knock yourselves out. We're sorry we won.
No. Unless Pelosi and her thuggy pals on the left can come up with real charges with real evidence (not this babbling garbage they throw out) then yes, there will be problems. I mean, some on the right may take up the leftist tactics of accosting lefties (congresspersons, senators, MSM types, staffers) in public places, or shouting down speakers on the left, or blocking traffic and shutting things down.
Civil war. No, just the right adopting age old lefty tactics.
2
Fox host Sean Hannity has been spouting rhetoric about civil war for more than a year and a half. See: Media Matters http://bit.ly/2okqDFA
You need to examine the ties between the Kremlin talking points & Fox - a major western info outlet that appears to be working for the Kremlin...
4
"red states have “8 trillion bullets.” And not a lick of common sense.
3
All this 'civil war' idiocy is nothing but a continuation of White Supremacists call for a "race war," just using different verbiage. What I do fear is what's already happened...Right Wing Terrorism.
3
Trump talks tough as long as he has a half-dozen bodyguards he can hide behind. And it's on our dime that he's been threatening decent US citizens who criticize this jerk.
IMPEACH. He does not deserve one more dime from us. And he certainly doesn't deserve to have us pay for the bodyguards he hides behind while he's insulting and threatening United States citizens with violence.
He's a swindler, a coward, and his tweets are now violent and insane.
ENOUGH.
IMPEACH.
3
Translation: if we don't get what we want, we'll start shooting.
3
I keep telling myself that there must be many in the GOP who are concerned about the president's civil war comments, as well as most of his other statements. What will it take for them finally to speak up and acknowledge his unfitness for this office?
5
@penny
Nothing. They're the party of faux patriotism. They commit treason while hugging the flag. They love national symbols, but hate our democracy.
3
Trump's tweet is sedition.
3
He is just a game show host. Relax
Soon brothers, the Boogaloo draws near, and no amount of satirical leftist articals can stop it
Today's map tweet is the same threat.
Why does the Right keep promoting civil war? I have heard or read some version of this threat since the 70's. Does the Right actually want another shooting war in the streets?
1
@TDHawkes
Because they lost the first one.
2
I have served in the Army and am tired of the threats by Trump and the far right and evangelists. The South lost the Civil War and was treated magnanimously . None of its leaders were indicted as traitors as they could have been. Somehow , a legend of the Lost Cause and a false sense of " heritage" has taken root.
Those mouthing threats of another civil war should look at our history that included George Washington, in 1794, putting down with ease those who refused to pay a federal tax on whisky imposed to help pay for our Revolution, and harassed and threatened federal tax collectors. Our history also includes a sad action by Douglas MacArthur who burned the tents of the Bonus Army and dispersed its members during the Great Depression. Blowhards loudly claim their AR 15's will rule the day. They had better think again about how few they are and about the might of our Armed Forces.
5
I am terrified because a civil war in the US where almost everyone has a gun will be much bloodier than the one I escaped from as a teenager in Syria.
The images of those days still hunt me everyday! The famine, the lawlessness, the insecurity .....
Contrary to the author's belief, it will take very little to have a full-blown civil war!
4
How does Trump propose a civil war would be fought? That his minions would go door to door asking if people support Trump and shooting those who say no? Trump needs to go. He is a danger to national security.
3
Speaking of Civil War, the current administration evokes memories of circa 1865 re-constructionist carpetbaggers who tried to sell their constituents a bill of goods. What's old is new again.
3
These doofuses. What, is Steve King gonna be the leader of the Conservative Evangelical Army? How about the TX mega-pastor, what's his role in this impending "war"?
I can see it now - Trump will decide, "yeah, I look good in Noriega-style military garb with a bunch of medals (which I deserve, frankly) all over the front."
They're nothing but a bunch of fearful little men making big, empty threats. They deserve as much ridicule as we can pile on them.
6
The right-wing terrorists have an established record of actually killing people...at one rally, burning down churches, etc. So a certain fear that they might scale up is not ridiculous. But the comfortable folks opposed to "Socialist" ideas like health care for everyone, treating immigrants humanely, etc. have more to lose than the losing side in our crazy economy. I have some hope they will tamp down enflaming their side. They may still have more guns than the left, but not than the cops and military....
1
A lot of them ARE cops and military.
2
trump never issues direct orders. What he does is issue unmistakable suggestions that he can insist were never for the obvious intentions. So when he talks of Civil War, his fans will hear that as permission for violence. And we all know that the Reds are bristling with guns.
6
@J.Sutton--Stochastic Terrorism.
1
Last March, my wife and I stopped in a diner in North Carolina for lunch. On the way out, at the cash register, I noticed a stack newsletters from an evangelical pastor. I grabbed a copy, and read it later. It was full of hell and brimstone writing about the "civil war" we are "already in" between the godless elite and the Christian chosen people. I wonder if that's the level of reading that our president is doing this days, when he's not watching tv or listening to the radio.
60
@Timty
He does not read.
9
As has been exhibited in the last 2.5 years, trump is a coward. All talk, bluster and nonsense. The sooner we walk him out of the white house in handcuffs or a belted jacket, the better.
5
The internet unleashed free porn on a level not seen before, porn that grew from the 1950, and may have peaked as click bait in the 00's. Now there is the same extreme clickbait on race, religion, ethnicity, cohort, anything that incites is profitable. Maybe it will pass through the digestive system of our society, and become a noxious weed that impacts individuals viscerally, the way it does now. This too shall pass, I'm hoping. At least as far as the effectiveness of anonymous fear mongering and leveraging accounts on the internet.
1
I'm an African American man grew up in the deep South surrounded by talk of "The South's Gonna Do It Again", libraries full of books analyzing how South lost the Civil War and hushed burbles of a certain type of war.
This is little more than small, insecure men desperately searching for a sense of consequence. The same as believing you matter after shouting fire in a crowded theater.
It's so tiring.
86
People are looking for a heroic identity - something that defines them as more than just another head in the headcount. I think most of us aspire to such an identity; I know I do. And if you're inclined to hold far-right political views to begin with (which I don't), then this can become a sort of natural next step: believing that you recognize a looming threat to overthrow the country, and taking up arms to defend it.
Don't mean to justify the conduct. Just trying to understand it.
We are still "waging" the last Civil War. Seen any Confederate flags lately? I have. They represent solidarity with Trump. Make no mistake about it.
4
@Bob--On the other hand, I'm glad to know WHO they are, and WHERE they are. Makes it easier to be on your guard against harm from such nutballs.
5
The views of Democratic candidates terrify me.As do the views of AOC and pals. I am 85 and too old to move to another country but the ideas of all these people scare me. I only pray that Trump is reelected.!
2
Health care, less inequality, clean air and water. I’m quaking in my boots.
8
@Richard Wind and Solar energy raise the price. I just had a message from my power company offering me more power from Green Energy. I told them NO -I will stay with Coal and Gas. I cannot afford to pay for Green energy - it is too expensive.
Ever since ObamaCare My health care has cost me more money every years. As far as I am concerned Obamacare did not provide me with better health care, it just made my health care cost more. I won't the Dems to tinker around with health care any more. Their scheme of offering health care to illegal aliens will definitely raise the cost of health care for citizens.
2
@Judy Weller, I expect that had you been 85 in the 1950s, the terror of the coming communist takeover of the US, led by Democrats, would have been your fear. And only the bravery of Tail Gunner Joe would have kept you from panicking. With a bit of perspective, the existential fears of one period in time are seen as largely irrational, but are used by those who understand the psychology of fear, to manipulate the fearful into taking actions (including voting) that are actually inimical to their own interests. Consider the possibility that you are being used by people with murky motives who are not interested in your well-being.
6
Frankly, I don't know why we just let them go. These guys never stopped fighting the first civil war. After all descendants of former slaves became very rich people and even a First Lady. Now, we can't have that under the Constitution, now can we? Let's just build the wall, but around the Secessionist areas. Then we also impose VERY high tariffs so it's Trump Country First. After all, it can't be called anything else. The rest of us, in the really prosperous part of the country where the majority of GDP is created can just go about our business enjoying our lives. Out of sight, out of mind. They might just end up killing themselves off since they have to use up those trillion rounds of ammo, no?
3
Most Americans believe that they can do whatever they wish because the constitution gives them permission....no matter if what they do is moral or immoral, decent or indecent, or right or wrong. With this kind of total freedom the future will have no need of prisons, law enforcement agencies, nor law books. Why? Because if the law allows you to do what you want, then there is no wrong you can do.
Blessed are those who do not see yet believe. To those who believe in His name: who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
"Where will the opposing armies gather to train — Twitter? How will they pick opposing uniform colors (MAGA and knit pussyhats are terrible camouflage)?"
Thanks for making me laugh while reading this depressing, disturbing article.
5
When it comes down to it, I doubt very many people would participate in a civil war. It makes zero sense to have one because someone is mean to a politician. It is completely irresponsible to urge a civil war to get your way. Twitter kick Trump off for inciting people to commit violence. Mr. President enough already. We are sick and tired of you. What have you done for us? JFK said "Ask not what you can do for yourself, but what you can do for your country." He wasn't right about everything but this quote should be why people serve in politics. Notice the word is serve.
4
Does anybody really believe that we will all be shooting at each other someday? Really?
@Robert McKee
I can believe it. Americans already do that, in schools, malls, festivals, etc. The reality is that humans are apes (this is as well established by genetics as that we live in a heliocentric solar system was established by Galileo's viewing of the phases of Venus through a telescope) and that apes, as well as other primates and mammals, are violent to their own kinds. Weapons only make it easier and firearms are among the easiest weapons to use, especially in close quarters like shopping malls and schools. (The shooter at the music festival in Las Vegas could have done much better with a belt-fed 30 caliber machine gun (or more especially a 50 caliber), which as an arm is also protected by the Constitution if handguns or assault rifles are, along with mortars, grenades, etc., all of which are arms.) Using a knife or axe or sword is more trouble, as you need to get closer and use physical force (exercise, in other words). Any reasonable person would believe that Americans shooting at each other someday (soon, maybe) is clearly a possibility.
@J Chaffee . Well, I guess , given all our mass shootings, it's easier to believe we could all start shooting each other.
2
Trump rules by fear. "Fear" by Woodward. He will fan these flames because he thinks the bluster and fear are what keeps him in power.
1
Patience! There were 20 years worth of sharpening crises between Andrew Jackson’s presidency and South Carolina’s secession.
First, there was only one US Civil War, it was horrible, and nearly ended the union of states. When the term "civil war" is thrown around, we as Americans should be as haunted and disgusted by that term as most people are when the term "Nazi" is used, or the Holocaust.
Trump probably knows absolutely nothing about the real Civil War. I actually think he was using the term to appeal to white nationalists and white supremacists. It's another euphemism for whites-only and white rule.
3
Charlie Manson thought he'd incite a race war by murdering innocent people. He died in prison.
These gas-bags will be just as successful.
My neighbors and I may disagree on politics but there's no sense on the street that anyone is willing even to throw a punch.
Yet we know that many very angry people, incited by rhetoric at the top, are capable of mass murder -- because it has already happened a half-dozen times since Trump's "election."
Laughable, but only to a point.
3
Trump was declaring his scorched earth policy. “Come after me and I will destroy this county.”
4
@Harvey
I don't think he needs the "come after me" part.
2
A civil war as the wackos think of it is not remotely likely. However two things stand out:
First, I am struck at how prevalent blind ignorance and unreasoning fear has become in a sizeable percentage of the population. It's like losing herd immunity in the fight against stupidity. Conservatives have apparently dumbed themselves down sufficiently that their agendas finally make sense to the John Birchers out there.
And second, if there were a civil war, it is a sure bet that President Bonespurs would be leading from the rear, coward that he is.
6
To those of us who do not tweet and do not follow, it's easy to see hysterical, all caps rants as merely a way to distinguish yourself from the other twits. It's comic book superhero stuff.
You sure Charlie? What happens when the police have to shoot some Proud Boys, or like minded group members, as they open fire on anti-Proud Boys demonstrators or the police themselves? Do you really think there isn't going to be one or more of these guys who gets caught up in the moment and acts out his paranoid fantasies at some point, especially if Trump is impeached or not re-elected? Please explain how all the "gov't comin' to get my gun" paranoia doesn't ramp up to scary levels from that point. There may not be a full civil war, maybe, but certainly something MUCH more dramatic than what we saw in the 60s.
2
What Trump seems to be threatening is not a civil war, but a series of terrorist actions by a minuscule part of the U.S population, the organized white far-right extremists. I live in a red state; I can't foresee any significant number of local Trump supporters grabbing their guns and attacking any government facility. Most consider themselves law-abiding U.S. citizens first and foremost and would be appalled by the chaos unleashed by a "civil war."
Yet there are home-grown fringe right-wing groups which would relish the opportunity, along the lines of Timothy McVeigh, to commit violent guerrilla actions in the name of preserving what they think Trump stands for, or destroying any alternative. I hope the FBI and ATF are putting in a lot of overtime now.
2
The president is the commander in chief of our armed forces. If Trump calls for a civil war from whom will the military take their orders? Trump may control a large following, but where will those in authority across the country stand? That we must thin about such a thing in a country where we have venerated the rule of law is horrifying That an out of control baby boomer who has benefited from our institutions his whole life whether for good or ill should destroy in a pique all that we have valued is unspeakable but possible.
1
@just Robert
Nixon tried it. He used Marines to guard his tapes with orders not to surrender them, but when civilian law enforcement came with a warrant the Marines surrendered them. They understood that they were subservient to civilian law enforcement within the country. Whether they would now view their Constitutional duty in such a light is an interesting question.
Do you know why these civil war fantasies don't make sense? Because one side isn't going to show up to fight.
The crazed righties who seem to want a war have been deceived by those red and blue Electoral College maps. They really believe there's a red America and a blue America, and that the two sides are mutually antagonistic.
But blue America really isn't interested.
That'll leave the civil warriors with a difficult choice. They can sit and wait for the war to come to them. (It won't.) Or they'll either have to attack their Democrat-voting neighbors (i.e., murder innocent people) or, I don't know, raid the post office or some other federal institution. At that point, they'll become terrorists, and the police or National Guard will have to put them down.
I think it's worth underscoring that point with would-be insurrectionists: You wouldn't be a soldier in a civil war. You'd be a terrorist.
6
Trump did not say "civil wars," he said "Civil War." That is the formulation generally used when referring to the American Civil War of the 19th century. One might see Trump's statement as code: It's gonna be us white people against all those other folks, once again.
3
"Don't push churchgoing, gun-loving conservatives too far, or there'll be dangerous consequences."
Those crazy pseudo-Christians sure love guns and violence (just like Christ?)
Conspiracy theorists have distinct psychological profiles. In science, one humbly learns the rigourousness required to support a theory that can be tested anywhere by anyone to determine its veracity. Conspiracy theories only require paranoid psychologies and a lack of critical thinking.
It's frightening when considering how many people are willing to take the lowbrow route to belief when an enlightened electorate is required to maintain a democracy.
3
@chemist
You are absolutely right when you say that scientific theory has the requirement of falsification via verifying the predictions by experimentation. The other so-called conspiracy theories are not theories in any sense. They are a form of ape-call (humans being apes) with no meaning for the most part, much like economics or political science or the speech of politicians: strings of syntactically correct symbols without semantic content. Their ape calls are purely emotive. But for the psychological background on what you term pseudo-Christians, I suggest you read Numbers 31. They need not be pseudo-Christians to love guns and violence. In fact, early Christians believed that Jesus would immediately return with hordes of angels of death (as used in Egypt to kill all the first-born of Egypt to affect the Exodus) to kill the Romans, among others. Christianity is violent (recall the Crusades as one of many examples, or the love of burning heretics at the stake) despite the notion of Jesus as being somehow passive (belied by how he threw the money-changers out of the temple). Don't underestimate Christian violence: it is part and parcel of the entire package of the Holy Bible.
2
"Where the citizen is sovereign and the official the servant, where no power is exercised except by the will of the people, it is important that the sovereign—the people—should possess intelligence.
The free school is the promoter of that intelligence which is to preserve us as a free nation. If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon’s, but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side—and superstition, ambition, and ignorance on the other.
Now in this centennial year of our national existence, I believe it a good time to begin the work of strengthening the foundation of the house commenced by our patriotic forefathers one hundred years ago at Concord and Lexington. Let us all labor to add all needful guarantees for the more perfect security of free thought, free speech, and free press; pure morals; unfettered religious sentiments; and of equal rights and privileges to all men irrespective of nationality, color, or religion."
Ulysses S. Grant, 1875
7
"The right’s civil war fantasy has roots in a long-held fear that liberal policies will lead to tyranny."
The phrase "a long-held fear" should be changed to "long-held propaganda."
2
These rants about a second civil war are hollow. It may well be a race war. In either case, the army won't let it pass. Yes, we may have a lock down for a while But that may lead to our losing our preeminence in the world. That is the real danger.
This right-wing, civil-war, trillion-bullet blather is all about narcissism and self-absorption. After all, why do these red-state warriors think that anyone would try to stop them from leaving?
The donor states can save a lot of money by cutting them loose and regain a good measure of self-determination.
One oft-forgotten effect of Southern secession is that it allowed the North to embark on an array of domestic improvements that the South had blocked in Congress because they loathed to allocate any money (including the North's own money) to programs that would benefit primarily the North.
With the South out of the way, the North embarked on massive infrastructure projects that gave us the railroads and canal systems. This was also the beginning of the state university system, as well as programs to enhance agriculture, medicine, and the newly emerging field of public health.
Southern cotton may have brought income to the country, but the North's civil-war era development projects established American preeminence in education, science and medicine. This era was a cornerstone in America's present economic engine, our global leadership and soft power.
Now, as then, the blue states want to charge ahead with an array of investments in forward-looking endeavors. Now, as then, many of these efforts are stymied by red-blue resentment. Maybe it's time for a trial separation?
8
My guess is that a certain percentage of those deeply immersed in the gun culture would jump at any excuse to use their weapons in actual combat against their fellow citizens if given explicit or tacit approval by an authority figure they admire. One would think the percentage would be tiny, but I thought the same thing about the number of people who would vote for Trump.
5
I agree, we are not on the verge of a civil war. It's here, and is being fought now. The battles may not be fought at places like Antietam, with uniformed troops marching in formation, but they are happening. It's a guerrilla war fought by terrorists at Charlottesville, the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, a Walmart in El Paso, and the truck-home of a man who couldn't afford rent but could afford to buy the materials to build and mail pipe bombs to all of his supposed enemies. The war is being explicitly encouraged and egged on by the man in the highest office of the land, who is determined to stay in power by any means necessary.
4
Two things, I have neighbors who have shared with me these conspiracy theories since BEFORE 2016. It’s as if they used Obama’s entire eight years to build their narrative.
But here’s the problem with the civil war fantasy. It’s the Washington DC region itself. Over 6 million people. Mostly highly educated. The best public school districts in the US. And a very diverse population. 99% of the people in this entire region simply won’t allow it.
Conspiracy theorists are bad at math, and never seem to realize what a minority they are.
5
This is why civil discourse is impossible. While the left isn't innocent, the American Right is so deeply immersed in intellectually dishonest echo-chambers that discussion is impossible; there is no agreed upon truth; reasoning with them is impossible. It is not an exaggeration to say that American conservatives are as brainwashed as children in totalitarian societies. Conservatism is dead; right-wing intellectual un-seriousness is alive and well. You can't negotiate with those who perceive imaginary enemies everywhere; who believe in this mythical deep-state; who think climate change is a hoax; who believe Democratic rank and file are far-left, America-hating operatives. Who cling to power by any means necessary, even thwarting democracy (e.g., North Carolina)
5
The irony: the people who support a tyrant getting the most paranoid of "big government tyranny." Maybe we are in a "cold" civil war, but of the right wing's own making...
3
I still remember a Republican operative, as the calls for Nixon's impeachment were heating up, claiming it would set off a social upheaval not seen since the French Revolution's Reign of Terror, presumably complete with actual guillotines on the Washington mall.
The Right deals all the time in stoking fears-- fear of immigrants, atheists, uppity women, whatever. But impeachment inquiries seem to send them into overdrive. With more and more evidence of Trump's malfeasance coming out, it will inevitably get worse before it gets better.
7
@Eleanor
I remember those days. I was very young but I remember distinctly one night watching in horror as a person I knew who was 17 years old and still in high school was getting beaten senseless by the police while he was screaming "I'm not resisting arrest" and had his hands up in air.
One of the onlookers called me a dirty hippy because I was crying and shouting stop it, he didn't do anything. I was 12. How can you even call any of that acceptable.
You will have lowlifes such as Trump in every society - those who not only divide a country but attract psychopaths and encourage violence.
Trump threatening a "civil war" is like all of his other threats. Immoral. Indecent. Insane. And completely unacceptable and shameful.
He should never even have been endorsed by the Republican party after he bought his way out of a felony conviction which is surely what he would have faced had he not settled out of court on the Trump University fraud allegations. The evidence spoke for itself.
And this GOP just threw more garbage on top of it and I honestly don't know how they live with themselves at this point.
.
2
I'm visiting Dallas for a month even tho I live in CA. Last Thursday I was watching the local news, WFAA ABC, and they released a poll of what Dallas residents thought of Trump's impeachment:
For Impeachment = 69%
Against = 31%
I was stunned to see such high numbers even if Texas is becoming purple.
9
Writing and tweeting about "the fear of civil war" that "others are going to attack you" is a tactic of using the media to broadcast a message to the white supremacist alt-right underground. Effectively, it is a call to arms. This is not a drill.
"Michael Savage's book argued that “Obama’s election to the presidency in 2008 might represent the final nail in the coffin of freedom.”"
Michael fears "freedoms" that extend to all non-white cultures, especially minority cultures. By cultivating fears using the old tropes of guns and abortion, millions of people are effectively denying millions of people healthcare, a living wage, jobs, and global peace.
From where I sit, it is trump's election "to the presidency in 2020 [that will] represent the final nail in the coffin of freedom" for minorities and their sympathizers, aka, Democrats.
3
I have an acquaintance that is on an exclusive diet of conspiracy theories. Twice now I’ve heard her say that she, “is tired of being persecuted and made responsible for this “. She is under the impression that old white women are somehow under attack. I find this crazy idea a new low. Where do you find these ideas? When was the last time a white woman was gunned down for having a cell phone? In a land of free speech how do we begin to advocate for truth?
1
@Hope
As a traditional, libertarian leaning, conservative, I feel that my beliefs and way of life are under attack every time I read this paper and its comments section. If I didn't spend most of my free time among an ethnically, economically & ideologically diverse group of friends I might even believe it was where we were headed if the Democrats get the White House back.
@I want another option
Can you give me an operational definition of libertarianism? And do not bring up the so-called Hobbsian social contract nonsense, as before human primates were human they were already living in societies with rules (ie governments, as apes (which includes humans) do now). I think you will find there is no such thing. Humans have lived in societies since before they were human and the entire edifice of libertarianism is complete hogwash. Which traditions, by the way? All the people I know are steeped in tradition. It is in the instinctual nature of the human primate. Finally, provide an operational definition of the word conservative (an example of an operational definition is that of free market, which in the Smithian sense can be shown to imply that it is impossible to make a profit in a free market (which is a form of steady state) so to determine if a market is free, simply look to the profits of the companies involved as profits mean it is not free (this is not a logical equivalence). An easier example is square root: a number a is a square root of b if a multiplied by itself equals b, which is a simple test). I am guessing that you can find no operation to apply to determine if or not a human primate is a conservative. Without operational definitions, words have strictly personal meaning, with no signification outside the user. Ape calls, in other words, almost always exclusively emotive.
@I want another option
What beliefs and way of life specifically do you find to be under attack? I'd really like to know.
1
The error being made throughout all of this discussion is that most Americans believe the Civil War (the "real" one) ended sometime during the 19th Century.
The cowardly, venal politicians left the job undone because the cowardly, venal, exhausted populous had no stomach for finishing the job. The white power base could have been dispossessed, funding reparations on the spot. The rebel forces could have been force-relocated, through Transportation if necessary, and dispersed throughout the country, left to consider the consequences of their treason. But, no, they were all left to fester and regroup into a shadow rebellion, always waiting for a chance to strike.
Oh yes, those church-going, gun-toting citizens are very scary, and they do seem prone to murdering people they don't like, but we're not doing ourselves any favors by pretending the threat away.
What to do? Call their bluff. Jail nitwits like King for seditious speech and inciting riot. Prosecute and physically punish anyone joining and participating with self-proclaimed "Militias" that have the purpose of harming the republic. Destroy them.
6
@George
I think it would have been better had the Confederate States not been readmitted to the Union but instead made into occupied colonies without self-governance. But you are definitely correct. The Confederate States of America has remained alive as a white-supremacist, dictatorial threat to the United States of America. It is a drag on the finances of the US, being economically dependent on the East and West Coast states. Had its leaders been hung and the people carefully controlled as colonials, the former Confederate States might have been less of a threat to and drag on the well-being of the United States of America..
This is not warnings of a coming civil war. It's all a thinly-veiled call to civil war, should they lose in a fair election (or in an un-fair election where they can't cheat their way to victory). It all started when Obama won, fair and square, and right-wingers yelled "I want 'my' country back!" They have been taught to believe that the only way they could ever lose is by dark forces cheating them out of victory.
Meanwhile, their announcements of the date of such a war have proven as silly as all the fundamentalist announcements of the End of Times. That never stops the true believers. Knuckleheads shooting up pizza joints is just a taste of what they are willing to do.
2
The subject matter is beyond despicable but the form illustrates again Michael Cohen ‘s observation that Mr. Trump speaks in code, the code of implication so that he has literal deniability,
The wink and a nod order.
Not that the code is mysterious, everyone “gets it.” It’s just not verbatim.
3
When National Enquirer type outlets become your main source of "information" - this is what happens.
I've been in the US for extended periods over the past few years. I think the term "Cold Civil War" is a very accurate description of the state of the nation.
This is not something one can see from NYC, LA or SFO.
You actually have to talk to both flyover country "deplorables" and to white liberal Trump Derangement Syndrome sufferers to see the violence of the societal cleavage that the great experiment in neoliberal austerity has wrought.
Trump is only a precursor of a significant national disaster yet to come.
2
Yes. First it is childish name calling, now it is foolish and empty threats. Always working at the early Grade School Level.
But, the common denominator, as it is for *any dictator-wannabe is rule by FEAR.
We deal with threats from Trump like we deal with threats from our Second Grade Students. Patiently, but Firmly. Period.
The more Trump *loses power, the more loudmouthed and bellicose he begins to sound. Yawn ......
3
It's a threat that should be taken seriously. It's built into the Radio Rwanda that is Trump-loving media.
The threat itself is a threat: do anything we don't like, and you'll have tens of thousands (more?) heavily armed True Believers in the street. I get impeached and convicted? Good luck removing me, because I won't go. Have a chat with the half million heavily armed people on the mall about whether to send in the military. I lose the election? It's all fraud: good luck removing me, physically removing me, with half a million heavily armed...etc.
Most people I know just say, Oh, that won't happen. Look at the comments below, including Times Picks. This is why if there is a neo-March on Rome here, it'll work. Because the only force that can stop it would be mass protest; millions in the streets to meet them. These are the same people who thought Trump would pivot, etc, etc, etc. He's a maximalist by nature and "ideology." He doesn't do representative democracy, and neither do his rabid fans. He's a savior to a bunch of rightwing evangelical loons, essentially.
If anyone has a better idea, any workable idea, of what to do if Trump won't leave quietly, I'd like to hear it. Right here and right now: lay it on me.
Yes, liberals (and just non-Trumpers): you can't outsource this; you can't hire anyone; there's no institution that will avail. What the military would do is an entirely open question, both in reality and in advisability.
We'll have to go full Hong Kong.
1
I believe the 101st Airborne would make quick work of Trump refusing to leave the White House as they did with Governor Orville Faubus in Little Rock!!
“Don’t push churchgoing, gun-loving conservatives too far...”
The terms “churchgoing” and “gun-loving” seem to go together a lot. We could probably add “paranoid” to that group as well.
2
What it is time for is for the House to impeach BARR and to force him to nullify the MEMO that says a sitting president cannot be indicted. In short order Trump would be indicted and legally removed from the WH and all this tomfoolery about civil war. He is not only a danger to himself with his eating habits and big mouth but to all the rest of us. That rule about the memo is only a constraint that is recent. Take it down House of Representatives and rid us all of this mentally ill disaster of a president. And everyone else guilty of assisting this president to prevail in his evil administration.
Trump glorifies war and the military but he was too darned chicken to serve. If there ever was a civil war he’d be on the first plane out.
2
What's disturbing is the far lunacy of all these beliefs set out in this article.
We're not talking about a difference of opinion on policy; we're talking about people believing complete lunacy.
It's not possible to run a country if people can be this foolish and gullible just because it suits their political beliefs.
I'm feeling more and more like we ought to divide into two countries. Let them go with their lack of touch with reality. We've got real things to attend to.
Just another subject to amaze us and distract us...notice how the 2020 campaign is no longer headline news? It's the Trump Show, all day, every day. No such thing as bad publicity!
If you aren’t worried about this you aren’t paying attention. I’m not going to dwell on it but I’m aware and preparing for the worst a little paranoia isn’t all bad
Thank you for cluing me in on where this ridiculous Antifa hysteria comes from. I'm always astonished whenever I hear someone expressing fear of an Antifa threat. Like a disorganized bunch of skinny black clad punks - whose biggest achievements seem to be a few smashed Starbucks windows and punching Richard Spenser on national TV - pose any real danger to society. What kind of snowflakes are these proud boys? And why hasn't the right wing gotten tired of Alex Jones yet? He's so blatantly wrong every time it's almost like he's pranking his followers.
1
Really? In the most powerful country in the world? Americans turning on each other for mobsters and pundits? Angry because others are 'elite'? Guess what, folks. It's the very wealthy who have stirred this up to gain further control over the public and the country's assets. While you are bragging about your guns, they are stealing your money and chuckling. Tucker Carlson and Rush Limbaugh have hundreds of millions of dollars peddling hate as does NRA leader LaPierre who is apparently spending your association fees on 5 thousand dollar suits. Wake up. Help each other. Do something valid with your time. Put down the phone and take a long walk. For God's sake. Grow up.
2
I contend that when concern trolls posit civil war it's a concerted propaganda post, likely paid, perhaps a foreign agent, cyber-attacking us.
Hogwash and ludicrous. A fascist far right fantasy of immature minds, not possible, unachievable, to be mocked and derided at every appearance.
1
Jeffress is no pastor, he is a fear mongering bigot trying real hard to garner favor with another fear mongering bigot who is also a bully and a coward. No "pastor" stands up and preaches or predicts civil war that is an abomination. The astounding thing is that there is a portion of the population that support people like Jeffress and tRump. There is nothing conservative about these people, they are trying hard to hang on to one thing----Power. Power that brings in money. Jeffress does not preach the gospel, tRump does not believe in God. They both stir up hate and fear to hang on to their power. It's that simple. Shame on both of them.
3
I don’t worry about anything as large scale as a Civil War, but I do worry that things like Trump’s re-tweeting of Jeffress’s comments about violence if Trump is removed, are a siren call to every aggrieved white supremist, every incel, every “persecuted” white evangelical, every paranoid deep state “Q-anon” supporter, every NRA worshipper, and every conspiracy embracing yahoo this country holds. As Trump and the right wing media continue to ramp up the rhetoric around impeachment and the Democrat/liberal conspiracy, they are wittingly or unwittingly pushing some of these people over the brink. That Trump, King, Jeffress and others use a national platform so irresponsibly is staggering.
Why should there be a war? I for one would be happy to just divide the US between red and blue states with no quarrel. Let Florida and Alabama have Trump for crying out loud. They deserve him. A wall does sound great after all---just not at the Mexican border.
2
It is no surprise that a goodly number of Trump’s evangelical supporters — some of whom subscribe to the apocalyptic religious fairytales promulgated by fear mongering millionaire “pastors” the likes of Robert Jeffress — would believe and promote civil war conspiracy theories. Indeed, these are the folks who have helped make “evangelical” a synonym for ignorance, hypocrisy, and lies.
1
Charlie, I wish I could share your child-like faith there's no chance of Civil War 2.0.
But I can't.
Political power grows out of the barrel of the gun.
Mao Zedong
This is the state of mind of the current administration.
Believe me Trumpers I am not afraid.
1
Millions upon millions believe literally the story of “the rapture” as questionably mentioned in the Bible. If they believe that, it’s no surprise they believe in this propaganda-like Civil War business. They probably would look forward to such a war to save their new messiah, Donald Trump.
1
Anyone who believes the crazy conspiracy theories dreamed up by Vladimir Putin and believed by a paranoid president and his court jester should be deemed mentally unfit to own a firearm, and therefore unfit to participate in armed insurrection. Food for thought by all who talk seriously of civil war, if Republicans can still think for themselves.
1
If conservatives are afraid that liberals will bring tyranny to America, why aren’t they afraid of Trump, McConnell, and Barr?
1
He was trying to change the topic from what he has done to anything else.
If Democrats had been anything other than just plain awful we wouldn’t have Trump. Thanks Obama, thanks Hillary, for fostering this piece of human garbage upon us. This is on you, not Jill Stein, Susan Sarandon, the Russians, Jimmy Dore, James Comey, misogyny, the electoral college, sexism, Bernie Bros or any other excuse you might still come up with. YOU did this to us, because you were just awful when you were in power. You let us all down, yet you STILL try convince people that it is us, the voters, who are at fault. How dare you?
When you guys controlled both houses, what did we get ? A right-wing Heritage Foundation health "care" plan, more wars, more domestic spying, more drone strikes, no torture prosecutions, no bankster prosecutions instead kicking out homeowners, Bush tax cuts permanent, always increasing "defense" budget, an attempt to kill SS and Medicare in a "grand bargain", whistleblowers prosecuted, fracking galore, drilling in the Arctic, a stolen Supreme Court seat, a broke DNC, and a loss of 1000 legislative seats. Basically a third Bush term. All the while, of course, promising the opposite while campaigning and delivered with fantastic smoothness by the "hope and change" Obama.
So cry me a river, as in Denali, about how terrible Trump is, but this is your fault, and your fault alone. You can’t even beat the Trumpster at the ballot box, instead going all in on Russiagate 2.0., instead of Yemeni war crimes for example, so what else do you need to know?
3
Funny how "the Party of Lincoln" is now the party of the NeoConfederacy. History doesn't repeat itself but sometimes it goes all pretzel shaped.
1
Please be advised that a number of residents in the hinterlands are heavily armed and foaming at the mouth, their visceral hatred is barely contained, aimed at anyone who doesn't have a beard or drive a pick-up truck.
For those who think this is mere hyperbole, go to any town in New York State with less than ten thousand residents. Those of you brave enough to do so, I advise you to wear an unlaundered plaid shirt and a red baseball hat. Rent a pick-up truck if possible and try not to use polysyllabic words.
1
If anybody is likely to start a civil war, it'll be Trump supporters, galvanized by hatred of minorities and immigrants, funded/armed by the NRA, and whipped into a frenzy by Fox news.
2
The Charleston, Pittsburgh, and El Paso massacres in addition to hundreds of other acts of political violence and terrorism committed by the political right (Charlottesville, Poway, Kentucky) by criminals repeating Donald Trump’s rhetoric evidence their desire to start a civil war. The right already has murdered hundreds of Americans in their attempts to ignite it.
1
I think the author failed to recognize that the words "civil war" are a dog whistle to racists and a myriad of not-necessarily- politically-compatible - romantics with a bent for defiance of authority and outright rebellion.
Trump's ability to tug at emotional cords rattled by political correctness and smug righteousness is a quality that Democrats ignore at their peril. Bill Maher gets it.
58
@Sequel
But who is it that is guilty of "political correctness and smug righteousness" here? Democrats and others who continue to accept the rule of law and the normal operation of our government? Or is it the Trump supporters and, apparently, the bulk of the Republican party who assert that they have the right to ignore the law and the constitution if it doesn't agree with their intolerant attitudes and their fact-free interpretation of reality?
The Trump movement is a pathological swamp of right-wing & christian political correctness and smug righteousness.
17
@voreason
Thanks for making this point. I’be always found it rich that people who disparage liberals as politically correct snowflakes are the same ones who go to the Supreme Court because they cannot tolerate making a wedding cake for a gay couple or to block their minimum wage employees from using workplace insurance to get contraceptives.
Their cult leader Trump wants to jail people who say “nasty” things about him.
But liberals are oversensitive /s.
15
To understand this, all you have to do is think about the answer to the question “Who profits from these lies?”
Read “Dark Money” by Jane Mayer, for a glimpse into the world that fosters this dreck.
The answer is - as it has been for the last 50 years or so - the Republican Party.
87
A far as I’m concerned any talk of Civil War is simply the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind.
A couple of random thoughts:
1. Americans (at least some of them) have a funny concept of "freedom". It is invoked by some in the pursuit of what I would call oppression.
2. Remember how classy Mr. Obama was in the transition period. Despite what must have been his private horror, he acted with decorum and loyal commitment to the constitution. In many ways this was one of his finest hours as he demonstrated a commitment to the orderly transition of power - one of the hallmarks of actual "freedom".
2
I am originally from Wisconsin, and the talk on the street is that even the Trump supporters are sounding unsure. Even the 2 fat guys at the end of the bar are not wanting a dictatorship in their lifetime. What Trump did telling the Ukraine to smear Biden in exchange for needed military money was a criminal act.
The chance of social unrest of Trump being impeached is a fantasy of Trump. In real life even in the backwoods mid-west there is no desire for revolt. I am sad that Trump used the nations respect for the military and country as a means to manipulate voters. Generalizing there are 300 million Americans. 100 million of those people don't vote. So 200 In the last election again about half voted. So 100 million voters.
Trump won by a mere 75K votes in small areas manipulated by false ads by Russian on face book. And about 50 million voted for Trump and 50 million for Hilary. I was sad to think Trump could be re-elected using these tactics again. Now I like everyone we are not so sure he will be re-elected.
And with the impeachment even if Trump does not get removed from office he will be damaged.
What is worse is that Pompeo was listening on the phone call. I can't see Giuliani without picturing him in prison now. Barr whatever happened to his soul on this journey will be weighed by lady justice in the courts and he will do prison time. Trump might flee the country to avoid prison in the state of New York. Lets do the work so our lucky lady liberty wins again.
2
@Elise
Maybe North Korea will give him asylum!
Social media is a danger to society until we figure out how to allow humans to communicate without physical presence. The anonymity, the lack of actual conversation when it's all based on postings and distance - we're not able to manage ourselves to human, civilizational constraints when it's all without real cost or consequence.
@b fagan The danger you speak of seems to be accompanied by the relief of realizing that Like-counts and Click-tallies demonstrate how stupidly we humans submit to control by a herd mentality ... even while we recognize that it is only an illusion.
Maybe we all pay too much attention to something not quite worthy, and we all know that already. After all, fascism since the days of Julius Caesar has always been ignited by the fuel of knee-jerk reactions in the face of boys who cry "wolf".
It may seem like Wisconsin commenters are slightly disproportionate here, but over the past 10 years here many of us have had alarming glimpses of the possibility of civil war.
Thankfully our early indicators haven't been violence, per se, but flashes of very deep, very emotional feelings that seem immune to rational discussion. In response, I've found myself thinking "1850" at surprising times and places.
Both geographically and historically there shouldn't be a question of which way Wisconsin would fall--it had a higher percentage of Union casualties than any other state--so the emotional unrest here might be significant.
There have been cranks and big-mouths for time immortal.
The difference from thirty years ago is that back then the crack-pots convinced their cause was so just that half the country would be committed enough to vindicating its righteousness that they would rise up against their nation in armed conflict would sit on their porch or in front of their TV muttering their incoherent grievances with only their dogs as an audience.
Today, the same folks can grumble into their computers and shoot out fever dreams of the coming apocalypse if the federal government does (or doesn't do) ________[Fill in the blank].
Of course, the adults in the room need to have the maturity and judgment to ignore and delegitimize this kind of insane rhetoric, as people have always done. The problem really is that Republicans (who know exactly how crazy all of this ranting is) have made the cynical decision that as harmful as it is to our national unity and conversation, it is politically useful.
Since the Republicans have abandoned their responsibility, it falls to the media not to take the bait when someone like Donald Trump or Sean Hannity retweets some apocalyptic ranting. Our condemnation of every time he pulls this just amplifies the usefulness of the tactic to them.
2
The article should have presented the thoughts of steve bannon. The "conflict" bannon has clearly outlined before, during, and after his connection to trump is extremely troubling. Don't think for a second that bannon is out of the picture. He is very present and very dangerous.
1
While a violence based civil war may appear unlikely, it is hard to not be concerned with this latest twist in our ever widening partisan divide.
It now appears that most Trump critics follow, and more or less believe, the stuff being reported by NYT, WSJ, NPR, BBC, CBS, WaPo, PBS, Associated Press and Reuters, all of which are mostly reporting the same stuff.
The facts of the matter.
Facts that paint a picture of a corrupt and unhinged president.
Ardent Trump supporters seem to exclusively follow RW propagandistic sites which use misinformation, fake news, hyperbole and lies to paint a picture that says Trump is one of one of our best presidents. These sources refuse to report and accurately inform followers of the reality of this president and his administration's actions.
These people sincerely believe the president is innocent of all wrong doing and is the victim of a huge LW, deep state conspiracy/coup. And many GOP legislators are loudly signing on to these fictions.
How do we move past this?
If the president is impeached and removed from office how will these people who honesty believe in an ongoing illegal coup against the president react?
How is it possible to have a rational discussion with people who are operating on an entirely different set of "facts" than the rest of us?
I worry for my country.
It is difficult to imagine this ending well ...sadly, the notion of an eventual dissolution of this country along partisan lines is looking more plausible.
1
@Rich Huff
Depending on which facts you focus on you can paint a picture of a "corrupt and unhinged president" seeking to hold onto power or a persecuted president trying to clear his name. The Truth, as they say, is in the middle. The only way to stay informed in the current media environment is to read across the idealogical spectrum.
Note that all this civil war talk is coming from the republican gun toting right. Here in nyc, most civilians aren't open carrying or shooting up the territory. To be safe from all this craziness, move to New York City where most people are more concerned about crowded subways than civil war.
2
Trump knew this would amp up his base. It's going to get worse before it gets better.
At some campaign event or protest rally down the road, a shot will be fired. Maybe accidentally or maybe on purpose. Either way that'll be it. We'll be in it, whether we want to be or not.
@Peter from Texas
Because We all used to receive an outstanding public education. That is no longer the case. Our children these last 30 or 40 years are not learning civics and government in school if they’re learning anything at all. We have huge segments of the American population that are simply uneducated. And even though they are uneducated, the white ones insist they are entitled to a good job and a nice home and all the rest of the American dream. In the meantime they haven’t done anything to really deserve it. With the exception of the extreme anti-tax types I would say almost all of Donald Trump‘s voters fall into this category. Sorry to say but that would be the dumb category
1
Bottom line: Trump and others who push a second Civil War theory are irresponsible. Whatever their motives, they are more interested in continuing to foment discontent and division and than American unity. That is reckless and morally wrong. Period.
1
Trump's loose talk of "civil war" eerily echoes his personal lawyer and fixer, Michael Cohen, when he testified before congress that Trump would not leave the presidency peacefully. Is there anything more indicative of Trump's clear unfitness to serve as president than his suggestion of armed conflict among citizens should he be impeached by Congress, as prescribed by our Constitution?
2
Yes. Talk of taking up arms, the government coming after their guns, and the claim that they had an arsenals big enough to "defend my home and family" against liberals was a frequent thread on the Tea Party blogs starting in 2010. I read those for several years. The armed to the teeth, 'gunna fight' segment I thought of as the cowboys and Indians contingent.
Talk of Civil War goes right to that individualistic, rough & ready, "from my cold dead hands" mindset of some on the right. Talk of battles, fighting, and war is exciting to that segment of society. The machismo runs deep. It intersects with a strong (over the top, IMO) patriotism, a sense of grievance, and fear. The latter the belief that what one most cherishes including family & culture is constantly at risk and in need of defending.
Trump, of course, plugs into this stew at the place of grievance, though not much else really fits who he is (many in this segment of his base are veterans - lots volunteered - Trump, not so much).
3
This editorial misses one thing. This isn't a joke. The talk of civil war elicits fear in those who read or hear it, particularly in those who buy guns for defense against the government. And of course in those of us who don't. The fear is the point, and the danger.
It might be well to understand how the country would be divided in case of civil war. The wealthy coast states, the "donor"states, would unite, and the"taker" States would unite. The country would be divided into two parts fighting the center. No matter the outcome, the center would be the losers, and poorer.
Time to just stop this loose lips talk.
48
@Linda Johnson
There's a problem with your scenario of "Donor" vs. "Taker" states and that's the fact that every large city and nearly every college town in a Taker state would be on the Donor side.
The same is true for the Donor states: the rural areas of all Donor states are mostly Taker. Especially in the West.
We would truly be fighting amongst ourselves, state by state. Which, I hope, would make another Civil War highly unlikely.
5
@Linda Johnson
It isn't useful to generalize blue and red states. In Michigan which preferred Bernie over Trump, their is a purple comingling of trumpists and democrats. A civil war as you suggest would not, in my opinion, be geographical.
7
The civil war is already here. It was started by Mitch McConnell in 2016. The sensible folks in America need to wake up. There is a subculture of violent thugs who want to kill us, and the right-wing media makes it profits by encouraging them. I do not believe they will succeed, but make no mistake, we are on the verge of mass violence. The right threatens it over and over again - see the citations in this very article. They want us dead. What is that but a declaration of war?
I seem to recall that the last Civil War didn't end so well for those on the wrong side of things.
59
@Chicago Guy
Very true. However, right side vs. wrong side is defined by who wins.
6
@Chicago Guy--did that war actually ever end. Seems like it has been smoldering forever?
10
@Chicago Guy
In that civil war both sides had guns. This time only one side does.
As such, it's not really going to be a 'war.' Instead, it will be more of a coup where a minority of citizens plus the armed parts of the executive branch seize power and remake the government to their liking.
The rhetoric is indeed ridiculous, as the democrats are bringing an impeachment to a gun fight, so to speak.
6
"(ignoring term limits, not accepting election results should he lose), "
I must disagree with the "opinion writer at large" here.
Almost every thing written about the GOP these days equally applies to the Dems.
For example, "not accepting the election results" was a Dem talking point about Donald Trump before he was elected.
After his election, democratic strategy"not accepting the election results" has been an on-going Dem strategy, from Mueller to Kavanaugh to border security.
Indeed, the Dems also mirror periods of American history which bring to mind a "civil war" like rupture.
"Sanctuary cities" sounds nice, until you realize that it is a progressive version of "states rights." Instead of "standing in the door" to thwart the federal government's implementation of the 14th amendment, progressives "stand in the door" to nullify the federal government's implementation of immigration law.
What's the difference?
Just what Bill Maher described in these pages recently. Progressives' new religion is an all encompassing PC culture which always has God, or at least Universal truth, on its side.
Thus begin "civil wars," or at least the preparation of seed bed for yawning political gaps which test the strength of our institutions to resolve our disputes in a civil manner.
3
Being from the South, I've read widely and deeply about the
War Between the States, including personal accounts of people who lived through the war. I shake my head at the people who enthusiastically brandish their guns and talk up civil war. They have no idea how bad it can be. And WOULD be for them. Out of shape middle aged men shooting at paper targets on the weekend would be no match for real soldiers. All they would do is commit atrocities against non-combatants before they're gunned down themselves. Civil war is an unmitigated national horror even if the cause is just. We the people need to dial it back and recognize that those goading us to war are doing it for the clicks and therefore the money. We need to ignore their media posts and help them find a constructive and peaceful way to make a living.
4
Trump tweeted about Civil War bc Robert Jefiress, pastor of First Baptist Dallas, tweeted to trump that his impeachment could bring on a Civil War.
I grew up w Jeffress and he is a kook. Despicable and self righteous. Odd.
God forbid this shd turn into a Civil War, but if it does, I'll be on the front line attacking both trump and Jeffress.
73
@Dolly Patterson GOOD and Mr Jeffress should be aware that he and his YUGE Southern Baptist church should be made aware that all of his spouting in favor of TRUMP is a violation of the Johnson Act that forbids so-called non-profits as THEY claim to be to speak in favor of any political person or party. I hope the IRS also heard him; I am sure his YUGE church gets lots of tithe monies. And even tRUMP cannot stop the IRS!!
15
@Franklin From what I can gather about Mr. Jeffress via the web, he has made very clear his contempt for the idea of separation of church and state. I should think the IRS would already have enough information to begin taxing his so-called church out of existence. But do they have the will to enforce the law?
10
@Franklin for what it's worth, I think the church is losing members....
When I attend FBC as a kid and adolescent, the church claimed 25,000 members. Today, they claim 13,000, but I'm pretty sure membership is more like 10,000 or below.
5
Open, legally conforming and fair process is critical to having those who disagree with a Trump impeachment to accept the result peacefully and a return to something closer to how the US government is to function. This is also critical to getting some Republican Senators to vote for removal.
However, House Democrats and Speaker Pelosi are doing everything possible to do the opposite.
1- No vote in House to proceed with an impeachment investigation, just Speaker Pelosi acting as a dictator, by dictating that Impeachment inquiry has started
2- House Republicans have not been allowed to call up witnesses to hearings. Without this, Democrats lose any legitimacy in the process of Impeachment
3- No hearings on the origins of the Trump campaign being investigated in 2016 by Pres Obama administration.
To better appreciate the rage that Impeaching Trump and potentially removing an elected president from office, recall the rage of Democrats over SCOTUS nominee Garland not getting a fair hearing
Then multiply that by 100 and it will last at least a generation.
2
"Civil war" is a dog whistle to the Cliven Bundy and Timothy McVeigh and David Duke types. See it for what it is.
These folks won't go down peacefully. Do you really this cancer will allow itself to be eliminated without invoking extrajudicial actions or terrorism? Do not see the violence of the last few years myopically and isolated. It's grave.
Who has time for a civil war? People that aren't complete losers have to work in the morning.
3
If there ever was a 2nd Civil War, lots of people would die, and the Confederates would lose again.
1
The idea of a civil war gets flushed down the toilet in the Kremlin and pumped through the sewers of social media into our homes in the United States. Trump is a part of that conduit—either because he is compromised by the Russians, a city slicking rube, or both.
1
Republicans are now threatening a civil war unless we bow to their tacky hotel magnate from NYC, and allow him to act criminally with impunity. It’s disgusting to see how far they have fallen. Conservative’s behavior regarding Trump is an absolute disgrace! Principled people are being threatened with violence unless they give their leader Donald Trump carte blanche to be corrupt. They have abandoned self-honesty in order to justify a deranged man, and to justify themselves for doing so. If there was a civil war the GOP would only be fighting to give a vile fool unchecked power, and to protect his ego. They are acting as if they were under the sway of a diabolical cult leader.
These threats will not dissuade any American with real principles from holding Trump accountable to the checks and balances of the U.S. constitution. It’s very sad to see how degenerate the Republican party has become, but we no longer have the luxury of staying in denial about it when their leader threatens to tear America apart.
2
Jesus is coming soon, we're about to have a civil war, blah blah blah. If we have one, it's because people on the Republican lunatic fringe have decided the only way to save the constitution is by shredding it.
How about this? Every post that mentions "civil war" has to give a penny per click to Planned Parenthood?
2
Great essay, thanks. Wow, the naked terror on the right is mind-blowing. When did the hyper-masculine right-wingers become such cowards?
1
All this talk about "civil war" is carried out in the "Land of the Weenies." These are people who don't have any conception of what war looks like. It is much more than shaking a gun at the TV. Loud Emotion can never be a replacement for actual physical fighting.
Civil War is the willingness to kill and risk being killed. If you lose, people come in and take all your stuff. Your family is kicked off the land, house, and out of the cars. Your bank accounts are confiscated. Stuff all around you gets blown up. Huge resources are expended with nothing to show at the end but massive changes in ownership and needing to rebuild everything around you.
There better be a very good reason for something like that. It is a quoted statistic that only 5% of Americans know someone in the military. Reading today's media calls for Civil War by people who never served, or spent their time avoiding service, makes me nauseous.
Don't threaten anyone with civil war. The outcome is unfathomable. Maybe we should just accept that other people have different opinions and call it a day.
2
You know, writing about dumb tweets about civil war is almost, but not quite, just as dumb. It gives the original tweet a bit more legitimacy and attention than it really deserves. What it deserves is about zero attention. Simply pointing out how dumb it is is about all the attention it deserves. Not a whole column in the New York Times.
Er Red Staters, should you start your civil war don't bother looking in your mailbox for that monthly Social Security check. The money to pay for it is mostly coming from those terrible elites in the blue states who disrespect you. Oh, and you will also be freed from the tyranny of Medicare.
2
It is the policy now to get the emphasis off of Trump as a crook and to get the idea that this is the beginning steps to rid the country of the Christian church, family values, let immigrants in, to promote welfare and to take away guns. Yes, its not that your President is a crook but "they' are coming for you and this is your chance to stop them!
Early in Trump's reign, he commented about changing the libel laws because he was being deluged by stories exposing his lies.
But, there is no law in the universe requiring everything Trump suggests is rubbish. In this case, IF the USA comported to the UK's libel and slander laws, we'd not be awash in these idiotic self-serving rantings by the most serious ill in our society.
Fear will not win. It is not winning. Trump will lose. Trump is losing.
Trump's upcoming defeat will be a cathartic, ridiculous, incendiary, distracting, obscene, repulsive, embarrassing, regretful, appalling, dangerous, liberating, necessary event.
3
Trump's whole persona is built on lies. He now is promoting the idea of a Civil war that will break out if impeachment is pursued.
He works to put fear into the population and divide people. Mexicans are rapists, drug dealers and criminals. Immigrants are taking all the jobs away from law biding Americans. Guns promote safety. [The NRA's gift of $30 million to Trump is paying off.] Facists are good people but watch out for the Antifa's. An Antifa (anti-fascist) website called "It's Going Down" is calling for physical violence against those who support President Donald Trump according to Fox News. Muslims are terrorists. Trump once said he would consider creating a database of Muslim-Americans and require them to carry special ID cards.
Democrats all work to destroy while ONLY Trump can fix everything.
In Trump's mind only, people must be ready to stand up for him with their guns. He wants aggression to prove how great he is. He is terrified of FINALLY being held accountable for his misdeeds.
2
I think anyone who lives in a genuine Red State esp. in the Deep South and or communicates regularly with Trump backers whether through social media or in person will quickly deduce that the possibility of Civil War #2 is a very likely outcome if The dems succeed in any way taking control of the nation with their current expressed agenda. Many are more than sick and tired of this facist, communistic, pro immorality ridden direction that the nation has taken. Many are willing to fight to stop this leftist agenda from re-shaping the nation they've loved and looked forward to seeing their children's children enjoy. Driving in Dallas Fort Worth I couldn't count the number of "Come and Take It" (many w/ an assault rifle icon) bumper stickers I see in just one morning drive. If you knew Texans the way I do I believe they mean it.
2
Trump is threatening Civil War with the South backing him up. Look where he goes for his rallies. He figures he could incite Redux with a snap of his fingers.
Donald Trump says these things because he has no intention of leaving office, whether impeached or losing the election. This is a dog whistle to his imaginary white supremacist army to come to his defense. He needs to be arrested and imprisoned. It’s the only way he’s leaving.
1
Let's not minimize this, a lot of these clowns, fools, and fanatics have in fact armed themselves and have engaged in terrorist activities; from Oklahoma City to El Paso.
1
Those mindless minions in the Deep South want Civil War? There are neighborhoods in The Bronx etc. that I don’t recommend they set foot in!
1
Reasoned argument has lost all traction in our fervid times. And sadly, while conservatives revel in these fever dreams, such extreme views are not limited to them. Failure to end fossil fuel use leads immediately to mass extinction. A leader who favors strongmen is a proto-Hitler.
The right has its own favorite memes. According to them, pursuit of progressive social policies will turn us immediately into Venezuela or Greece, I tell you, Greece! Despite us all being a socialist (consider police or fire protection, public libraries, public roads, the military or public water and sewer services for a few examples), "socialist" is being used as a cudgel studded with spikes representing everything a "right-thinking" person fears meant to wreak havoc.
Each side does not wish to nudge the Overton Window of political possibilities. Each wishes to nail it shut and board it up.
Ending discussion is the surest way to lock us in ceaseless disagreement.
If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.
1
"It doesn’t matter that we’re not on the brink of a civil war...."
Been to a gun range recently...?
You should go.....
The author brings up a good point, without actually saying it. We have a lot of frightened right wing nuts floating around out there.
But you know, most Americans just get up, go to work, come home, eat supper, watch a little tv, and go to bed. Then repeat the next day.
See everyone at the polls in 2020 to vote President Pence out of office.
2
The rest of the world is laughing at the US and the enemies of the country are high-fiving and fist-bumping. The fanatical people who want to bring it on won't be satisfied until the whole place is a pile of rubble.
1
The next civil war will begin with Trump fans indignantly throwing their remote controls at their TVs while watching Shepard Smith on Fox News ...
and it will end shortly thereafter, when they accidentally blow up their Medicaid-supplied oxygen tanks.
2
Trump will not leave the White House gently.
He will call on his second amendment people to barricade the White House.
And these second amendment people will defend the multi-draft dodger who insults gold star families and military veterans.
Thus proving once again why, in his very own words, Trump loves “the poorly educated.”
2
No. there won't be a civil war. But law enforcement should gird themselves for the possibility of a fair number of unhinged armed lone wolf nutjobs to come out the woodwork if Trump gets ousted whether by Senate trial or the electorate in 2020.
3
My acquaintances --can't call them "friends"--who espouse this warning/hope for the coming Armageddon all share a fascination with end things.
They see themselves, to a man, as losers, but not losers who deserve to be losers, rather losers who have lost because they have been cheated.
They look forward to the day when the last shall be first.
They are kissing cousins to those religious folks who look forward to the reckoning, the rapture, and they tend to be rabid supporters of Israel, oddly enough, based on "scripture" in which they see the ultimate revolution, in which Christians will ascend to heaven, leaving Muslims, Jews and heathens behind.
This is the core who wish for Civil War and see Trump has the messenger and prophet.
1
The Civil War is already raging on Twitter and Facebook. Bring it on!
1
Many conservative christians are no better than extreme muslims, in my opinion they are worse, because we already know that in jihad, no one wins.
1
On the one hand, these far-right loonies make me ashamed to be a fellow citizen, and they will cause people to get killed.
On the other hand, I can't help but think of the Paul Ford character (sword-wielding Fendell Hawkins of the Nantucket militia) in The Russians Are Coming (x's 2).
Where is Police Chief Brian Keith when we need him?
2
I cannot see how any President of these United States, with any sense of history, can recklessly transmit quotes about the potential threat of a second civil war. Our leaders are expected to unite us. This divisiveness is harmful, on so many levels.
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/civil-war-casualties
1
I wonder if Trump would skip his very own civil war.
Because, you know, bone spurs....
3
Trump could call for civil war if he is being forced from office, and some right wing loonies with guns would start shooting. Think about the guy who went armed to that pizza parlor, hoping to rescue children supposedly being trafficked by Hillary Clinton.
2
When we finally get Trump out of office, one way or another, the media must stop covering him, his family, and his tweets. A total blackout. Tune him out completely. The fuel for his toxicity is publicity itself. The problem is, the media "gatekeepers" themselves are junkies for this rubbish.
1
Those who wrapped themselves in garish patriotism are now spouting threats of civil war.
They are traitors not patriots.
2
Trump is like some villan in a B class sitcom who is always in an attempt to make things better for himself away manages the opposite. A talent for mischief or worst.
1
The evidence that Donald Trump has no interest or concern for Americans lives is only confirmed by such demented and atrocious fear mongering.
2
If only we were so lucky as to have the 'deep state' Pentagon, FBI, CIA, DIA, DEA, ATF, &c. waging war on the addled right-wing conspiracy theorists.
1
This is so stupid. Everyone needs to calm down, there isn't going to be a civil war, except maybe with memes on twitter. 40%+ of people don't even bother to vote. 40% of our population is obese. Our political divisions are primarily urban/rural (not red state/blue state) so there isn't even a state by state secession scenario that is plausible. Homegrown domestic terrorism by white nationalists remains a growing threat and concern, but even then we have a long ways to go before we approach the levels of political violence we saw in the 1960s where the Army was frequently called in to quell civil unrest. Having said that, the President even saying those words should be grounds for impeachment. But we already knew he's unfit for office.
2
A better title for this piece would have been "Whistling past the graveyard."
For a depressingly large minority of white American males, especially Southern white American males (I'm all four; don't let the Aussie address fool you), nothing gets their juices flowing more than the fantasy that sometime soon they're going to be forced, never through any fault of their own, to engage in some morally righteous gunplay. Whether the imagined antagonist is a would-be rapist coming through the window, an ISIS terrorist coming over the boarder or a jackbooted government coming to take their ARs and force them to renounce God and swear allegiance to Elizabeth Warren, the structure of this malignant thought pattern is the same, and it's much older than Trump. It's deeply American and deeply sick.
The scary thing about the present moment is that for perhaps the first time since the Jackson Administration, the sickness reaches all the way to the top.
3
Whenever I read or hear one of these scare pieces predicting a general insurrection or “civil war”, I want to ask the authors one question. Are you willing for yourself or your children to die for Donald Trump? Because, the only thing such action would accomplish is to massage his disgusting ego.
2
There are certainly many gun owners who do indulge fantasies about a Civil War; it would give them license to do what they are unable to do now, put a bullet in someone's back. Then they'd be "freedom fighters", and not just some overweight mook drowning themselves in pizza and beer, watching football on TV for four months straight. They're all Rambos waiting to be unleashed -- just as soon as they mow the lawn and clean the gutters.
1
Trump is a simpleton who knows nothing of the hardship and horror of war, let alone the ferocity of civil war. He might think it is actually civilized. His fearmongering is the other side of his coin of supreme selfishness and fear of paying for his criminal history. This from a man who has denounced every judge who upholds law over Trump's whims and sees any questioning of his hair-brained and costly self-serving ideas as treason. Instead of straight talk, his bizzare behavior and words call for a straightjacket.
1
His bone spurs told him so.
1
It is so imperative to study Germany in the 1920's and 30's. The reason to study Germany is that prior to the rise of Hitler, Germany was the most technologically advanced, and perhaps most cultured nation on earth. The majority of Nobel prize winners and scientists came from Germany. They had great art, architecture, and music. A highly educated population.
So why did they fall for a charlatan? Why did the reasonable voices get drowned out?
Propaganda.
Hitler and Goebbels were masters of propaganda. Propaganda trumped reason every time.
Today, we have the greatest propaganda media machine - Fox News - ever. The propaganda coming out of Fox is turning formerly reasonable Americans into zombies. It is very very potent. The parallels with Germany in the 1930's are there. Propaganda in Germany did not allow for reason and turned cultured Germans into zombies.
The Fox propaganda machine is dividing this country. It's impossible to communicate dispassionately with a regular Fox viewer. And Trump's ten thousand documented lies no longer have any meaning. We shrug our shoulders because the zombies who watch Fox are completely unperturbed by our self-proclaimed "greatest president ever, with maybe a little competition from Lincoln".
1
Some of the rhetoric of the trumpists and of trump himself sounds exactly like the rhetoric of the nazists and fascists just before and during the Second World War. They were ranting and raving about different groups, including the Jewish people’s plans to kill and loot and rob the righteous whites whom the fascists represented.
It is amazing to see the resurgence of fascism so many decades later and even more disturbing is the fact that a lot of it is happening in the very country, the USA, who liberated Europe from the Nazi boots!
1
A history parallel appears relevant: in 1968 Nixon and Republicans used the riots at the Democratic party convention in Chicago and fear of leftist radicals to build a "law and order" platform that brought them into power. In the early 1930s NAZIs used fear of Communists battling in the streets with the fascist Storm Troopers to build their minority support. Now the Republicans are trying to propel ANTIFA and Democrats, in general, to be the dangerous opponents of peace. Will "the middle" hold against the assault of the radical Right?
2
AR 15 vs. Hellfire drone. Good luck with that.
2
Let's not engage in another bloody fight on our sacred lands. We should enact former VP Bidden's excellent suggestion he alluded to for Iraq. Split the country into two distinct nation states (although Iraq consisted of three). The South and Southern Midwest states could again become the CSA while the North Eastern Mid Atlantic states, Northern Midwest and the (elite Western states remains the USA. Only to have trade as we do with other nations. That works for me and we won,t have an Electoral College screwing us up anymore.
1
I have been saying for over a year now that Donald Trump will never leave the White House willingly. Never. Then again, he does go on vacation every 4 or 5 days so perhaps we could just change the locks on him while he's away?
182
@Chicago Guy Trump as we have seen in the past 2 years is basically a wimp. He only fights people less powerful than himself. Should extreme fans of his attempt violence, the Secret Service could take him away to a safe place (from which he would be unable to tweet). I believe the police, National Guard, and other government forces would be ordered to restore order (by Pence if Trump was unwilling to do so).
3
@Chicago Guy
He should be escorted in handcuffs to a federal prison.
2
... or his tweet could mean that the country is divided. It is.
1
The common term I hear being used is “coup d’eta.” I’ve heard it from Limbaugh, Hannity, and Carlson. I don’t plan to go deeper into the sewer of right wing media than that - it can only get worse. There is no allowance at all for the possibility that the allegations might be true, that Trump could have committed impeachable offenses. One caller actually offered the theory that the Democrats are doing this to prevent Trump from appointing a replacement for Justice Ginsburg should she die while Trump is in office. Limbaugh readily agreed. The irony in that was staggering, of course, given the “McConnell Rule” that led to the appointment of Gorsuch and that seems to only apply to President Obama.
Coup d’eta provides justification for force to resist it. The truly scary question is how the US military would respond. I am reminded of the images of high ranking generals on the stage with Trump during his 4th of July MAGA extravaganza. Dangerous times, indeed.
1
Trump wants to rev up his followers to support him and tacitly give them permission for acts of violence. He wants the identity of the whistleblower exposed. Just like Henry II and Thomas Becket, wanting to be rid of this meddlesome complainant (priest in the quote).
Even if the House passed articles of impeachment and the Senate ratified them with the requisite trial, Trump would scream that it was a witchhunt and that the system had been rigged against him. He would be taken kicking and screaming from the WH encouraging his claque once again to acts of violence. The same would happen if this stretches into 2020 and he loses the election. He imagines himself untouchable and that his supporters will do anything for him. Never mind ripping the country apart. Never mind his flouting the rule of law and flaunting his numerous acts of treachery, dishonesty, self-dealing and self-enrichment. Never mind his complete lack of ability to do the job. Never mind the hatred and resentment he unleashed. Never mind his lack of a moral compass. Never mind undermining relationships with allies and international institutions and norms. Never mind kowtowing to dictators and wishing he had such power. It was and is and always will be all about him and what he wants and needs. He will threaten those who oppose him and paint them as traitors. God help the US if he enables killing in his name.
It sounds like a fever dream but is possible with this poor excuse for a man.
1
I am so sick and tired of Donald Trump. I think, except for about 30% of Trump's so-called "base," most people want Trump out of their heads and day-to-day lives. I question if that 30% number is real, any more, because I know many Trump supporters who regret ever voting for Trump.
And, the truth of the matter is that Donald Trump never honestly won the 2016 election. I believe that we have more than enough evidence to impeach Donald Trump, and to move away from his Brand of greed married to sheer ignorance and spiritual bankruptcy.
Enough. People need jobs, health insurance, and a clean environment. No one needs Trump and his greedy family to be in our government, or in our heads, any more. Enough.
4
@Miche
There are plenty of us on the Right who deplore Trump and can't wait for him to be out of office, but we view the Democrats' government expanding policy proposals as worse for the country than his grifting and general vulgarity.
i.e. We are unwilling to accept the Democrats' offer to jump from the frying pan into the fire.
Hilarious reading the unsophisticated commentary from self-proclaimed sophisticates. We let the have their fun because in the end, they habituate in an urban maze built on balsa. The slightest disruption will turn their landscape into a dystopian novel. Or, are we misreading the crime, homeless, race-baiting and abject poverty news from every major "liberal" metropolitan area? Proceed apace fools.
Biggest mistake Conservatives make...assuming Liberals do not own guns and cannot shoot straight. Every time I shot target practice with my right wing brother (which is once or twice a year) he just shakes his head as I hit everything and he can't hit anything.
I am also sure that Trumpers will be surprised by how many old school GOPers stand on the other side of the "civil war". All your "friends" on Facebook does not constitute the whole world!
3
The only thing #45 will not do is quit or admit defeat.
To an antisocial narcissist there is nothing worse than the idea of others believing he is something less than a god.
1
Trump can't speak without grossly exaggerating, and he's always wanted to be the most important and singular person in the world, so important that he is betting that Americans are so daft and depraved that they'd go to war over congressional and judicial checks and balances being put on his imperial presidency. What an ego this guy has, he dreams of sinking the whole country for his desire of an executive tyranny.
Ironically, many in the "deep state" that he and his lackeys rail about - Comey, Mueller, Clapper, Brennan, Kelly etc.- are lifelong Republicans. But there are "conservative" Democrats in the Beltway too, Joe Biden for example, that set troubling examples, show how some Democrats also shamelessly serve themselves.
Now back to the MAGA Trumpluddites, that support a specious fascist socialism for Trump worshipers only, and crumbs or criminalization for everyone else. Trump and his enablers are selling less rights, freedoms and power to the majority of the people at home and abroad. They support policies that make America not great again, but the most gunslinging, unwell, violent and incarceral developed nation on earth. They support less rights and freedom for the peaceful majority, as they electoral college'd the antithesis of popular democracy. Look at what they preach, and look at what they practice. They practice with their actions the antithesis of their words when it comes to those that they oppose, those who do not worship at and kiss the feet of mammon.
Generally a war needs to have two sides.
1
if a civil War is the only way to end that madness, why not?
I don't see Trump's side win it. they will be crushed.
1
It's odd that the talk of civil war is coming from the people who claim to worship the Prince of Peace and who read that they are to pound their swords into ploughshares.
2
Trump seems to get up every morning asking himself, What does Putin want, and then goes ahead a does it. From encouraging domestic civil strife with his racist dog whistles to weakening America's place in the world with isolationist policies, to all but fomenting another Civil War within the US itself - To a brutal autocrat the entertainment value alone must be giving Putin the time of his life.
2
The only benefit Trump has provided for his supporters during 3 years in office is a steady diet of hate, divisiveness, conspiracy theories, and lies. His only legislative accomplishment has been an ill advised tax target, which targets only 0.1% of wage earners and has blown a massive hole in the deficit. None of the executive orders and foreign policy edicts will last more than a month or two after Trump has been kicked out of office. So, the real question is whether the scenario of a civil war, fought in order to support the perpetuation of leadership by a corrupt, dishonest, seditious, racist scam artist and his family, is at all plausible. The closest we have come to one in the past 75 years was the period of racial violence in American cities in the 60’s triggered by the assassination of Martin Luther King and 100 years of Jim Crow hatred and divisiveness. While the events of the 60’s were destructive and terrifying, they never approached the level of civil war. This is just another attempt by Trump and his Fascist supporters to threaten the country with apocalypse should he lose the election. The real threat is that Trump, Barr, Pence, Pompeo, Miller et al end up in federal prison, and that there would be in dancing in the streets, rather than civil war.
2
Trump’s followers cheer this kind of secessionist ranting; we ignore it, and them, at our peril. It is time to make this matter plain—either we allow a white, racist, right-wing minority in the Deep South and Midwest to control the fate of our nation or we do not. As U.S. Grant said in 1861: “Now there are only two parties: traitors and patriots. I wish hereafter to be counted among the latter.”
2
In reading through these comments, it is easy to see that the left holds at least as many Civil War 2.0 fantasies as the right supposedly does. Perhaps Mr. Warzel should examine his own side more closely.
1
Useful summary. Seems to align well with the recent finding that the motivation to push "hostile political rumors" in the social media is less value-motivated than driven by anarchistic urges: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/opinion/trump-voters-chaos.html?searchResultPosition=4
The paranoia on both sides is leading us to violence. Count on it.
Republicans have been threatening the union since long before Trump. He's nothing more than its naked lunch and predictable embodiment.
Entirely their creature and entirely their responsibility should the US turn into a failed state.
Trump is absolutely corrupt but he openly supports whitesupremacy. 158 years ago, it was whitesupremacy that caused the civil war. If that same evil drive is still going cause a civil war in 2019, then America has failed. And there is no reason to try to save it this time.
1
If I may, Mr. Warzel, the "Civil War" is not "trollish shorthand for political polarization;" it's a clarion call from the beleaguered president to his racist, anarchist supporters. He's telling them, in so many words, to prepare for a racial Armageddon. He is holding himself up as a Christ-like figure, a man who is beset by enemies on all sides and the only the "right" (no pun intended) people can save the nation from the mongrelization in which it is now awash.
The Civil War is a toxic subject. It is high radiation, given its historical cause(s) of slavery, states' rights, and exploitation. Its train of sorrow and suffering and lingering resentment is perpetual. It can be no accident that, in 2011, he lit the birtherism fuse that unlocked the closet Republicans from their stated opposition to President Obama as a Democrat; as a Socialist; as a Kenyan; as an usurper of the high throne of the white priesthood that was always only supposed to be the white man's reward.
We have seen Iowa's Steve King go public with "8-trillion bullets." Why would a Congressman own something like that? Is he telling white America to oil their weapons and have plenty of ammunition ready for the coming war?The inference is that perhaps Donald Trump's presidency may soon come to an end--at the ballot box or in the Senate. When a president says that "very fine people" have assiduously sought the unending tensions that are race in America, his purposeful employment of "Civil War" means everything.
2
Trump advocating political violence is not new. He did it during the 2016 campaign when he said (paraphrasing): maybe the Second Amendment people will do something about [Hillary Clinton].
3
This is straight out of Hofstadter, "The Paranoid Style in American Politics."
2
It’s called “ Incitement to Riot “. HE will stop at NOTHING to maintain power, and escape imprisonment. And more than a few MAGA Fans are happy to oblige and awaiting orders.
Beware.
1
Even in its own terms, this column cites an MSNBC anchor while attributing talk of civil war to "pro-Trump" media. The fact is, quite a lot of preparation for civil war is going on among the Left-leaning in our country; this author chooses not to mention it. Antifa has been carrying out marches, almost always with violent acts, both against property and people, on a regular basis. Here in Portland, Oregon, it's a weekly occurrence. There are "John Brown Gun Clubs training our anti-fascist youngsters how to shoot and kill. Of course, all of that is invisible to our right-thinking East Coast elites.
1
Try to quench the fears and angers of the prevailing media Hysterical Society. But just in case the inevitable John Browns of the Republican party spark unrest, be prepared to hunker down with seeds, water filters, and maybe a shortwave radio while being aware of the likelihood of foreign propaganda as the media is always the first means of manipulation as it is now. People are too impressionable, easily brainwashed with the primitive instincts of hate, anger, hunger, and sex. I'm writing specifically about national radio, Television, and movies which have already molded everyone's minds. Never lose your self control and in imminent danger, only act in self defense.
The military psychlops is playing everyone like war games to win. No matter what happens, they will " be in control".
These implicit threats of Civil War from right wing fear mongers is comical. Most Americans can barely walk to their mailbox without getting out of breath.
2
Apocalyptic fantasies are fun. People love ‘em. The Hollywood left makes just as much money off them as the AM Radio Right.
Imagine it. All normal operations of life: boring job, tedious schoolwork, weekly grocery shopping, paying bills, mowing the law—gone, eliminated over night. It’s back to pure simple survival mode. No more tax forms to fill out, no more lines at the DMV. All the complicated machinery of the high tech state is blown to smithereens in the initial explosion. All that’s left is just you, your family, and a small band of like minded Preppers who saw it coming. All those primitive skills laughably irrelevant in the modern economy are suddenly pure gold.
And now, on top of that birthday cake fantasy, add the icing of political and religious tribalism, the righteous indignation of those who think they are protecting our God-given, Constitutionally protected right to Liberty, and the religious certainty of divine revelation printed for Eternity in one Holy Book. Well, you get the point. It’s a brew that goes right to the head, then down into the limbic core, the DNA of the American Imagination. And here’s the scary part, for many people, it’s not a story at all—it’s Reality. It’s a fight they long with all their angry, resentful, racist, violent, and petty little souls. Johnny get your gun indeed.
2
I sure hope the Democrats' revived ACA includes coverage for cult de-programming.
Ooops, did I give away one of our Deep-State secrets?
2
I wonder how many of those that proliferate a Civil War among us are actually being paid by Putin to sow discord. Remember that there was a group in California that was financed by Putin to break California into multiple states? Is Fox News' owner paid off by Putin? Do these schills for Putin have any true love for our US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence?
His tweat shows the extend to which he will go...he knows he is on the losing end now and his desperation will know no limits.
What are people afraid of? Simple- that anyone will ever vote for DJT again! Yesterday when all the news broke about how corrupt the administration is even as far as cabinet members- Sec. of State and AG that was frightening. Corruption is a cancer that is hard to weed out, and the fact that any American would reward someone with a vote who has in part created the cancer is just overwhelming!
1
@Carole Ellis
Agree with your post, but in their minds this is all fake news. They continue to live in a very different reality.
1
Don’t forget when he said he also had the bikers.....
1
@CathyK
Yup, a bunch of fat white old guys who couldn't lead a charge up the hill without a mobility scooter. (With a Harley sticker on the scooter of course).
Honestly, the USA has gotten so far off track that you wouldn't be able to sell this a movie plot.
The same people that claim they've been forgotten are the same ones that they need to go back to Civil War threats. The same ones that want a wall want only white people coming to our country. I had heard that native Americans preferred Norwegians but that may have just been a rumor.
1
Why is it that columnists fail to point out that far right "commentators" or "pundits" have absolutely no backgrounds justifying their being put on radio and/or TV to spew their dangerous, false, conspiracy theories?
Most just appeared because certain media sources wanted the most outrageous (ie: entertaining) statements to attract listeners/viewers.
Look at Hannity's background for a good sample. Attended 3 colleges, never graduated. He started out as a house painter/contractor. No journalism background. No military background. No great books written. No awards. Nor degrees. No government experience.
He, like all his ilk, is a mere huckster. A man who sells hate and division for money.
Required viewing, the films: "Elmer Gantry" and "A Face in the Crowd".
2
Yes, I grew up in Georgia and conman trump’s “civil war” is going to work out for trump about as well as it did for the confederacy.
Vote my friends, time for this self dealing, morally bankrupt president to go.
2
Wow, Trump’s high opinion of himself is really warped and delusional. He must think he is God, that he engenders such devotion that we would all start killing each other if he were removed from office.
Don’t worry - we will survive. Just watch.
1
Mr. Warzel describes a "never-never-land" in which adolescent boys play endless war games--cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, dungeons and dragons--on a national media scale. At the same time, we have the middle-school "mean girls" Ingraham and Pirro egging them on (for profit). Where are Donna Reed, Barbara Billingsly, or Esther Rolle when we need them? America needs a Mom.
1
When Trump was elected there were fears that he would declare a national emergency and seize total control of the government. So are at least it hasn't happened and US has not degenerated into another Nazi Germany. But there are reason for such fears as there are reasons why Trump losing an elect4ion could erupt into widespread violence by the right. There is nothing really to do but keep going and realize that such fears cannot simply be removed and realize Trump's political career is based on raising fear. Usually it is fear of immigrants but in this case it is civil war. He is an authoritarian. That's how authoritarians gain and maintain power.
1
No Charlie!!
This isn’t a trolling endeavor.
We r in a civil war and it has all the makings of being provoked by our demogogue in chief.
Strong words and opinions are not trolling.
America is exhausted and his dog whistles and lies are destroying our national cohesiveness.
All the shootings so far are that war Charlie. Redoubt groups have been waiting for a militia driven civil war for a long time.
Military men have been fighting so long now in endlesss wars that is all they know. Mercenary work is plentiful.
We are a warring culture and we are leading up to a civil war. Not like the 1860’s kind. We have new killing machines.
I am not happy and it isn’t trolling to say it.
Treason is the word folks. And media start using the accurate vernacular when describing the chaos caused by these traitors. Just because a person has money and tier one education and connections they can have evil intent and dishonest intentions to maintain status.
1
Only a wicked person would mention civil war...his name is Trump.
He and the cronies in the WH should revisit what happened in Lebanon, April 1975- to 1990, when political rivalries full of hate against each other, and religious bigotry, launched the country into a deadly fratricidal war that claimed 150,000 civilian lives (10% of the country's population.) I barely escaped the carnage , myself...
And you know what, the Lebanese government had allowed its citizens to own all type of weapons in their homes , including AK47s ,machine guns and hand grenades...all those were put into effective use, creating the "Lebanese killing fields". The country has never been the same , since.
Wake up United states...
1
History has shown that Trump will stop at nothing when it comes to self-preservation. There is no law, regulation, standard, more, societal norm, or self-guiding principle that will restrain him from indulging his id. Republicans continuously tsk, tsk, saying, "I wish he wouldn't do that," but the outrageous conduct continues, unabated. I fear that the worst is ahead. And his Republican enablers will be left to say, "I didn't know he would do that."
1
Paranoia is a sickness (not sure if it's in DSM). Why on Earth would someone want to feed a sickness, when in his heart he knows that he is poisoning the well, the same one from which he drinks? Has his religion died and he won't have to answer to anyone? Speaking of feeding sickness, have opioids already poisoned our well to the point where the dead religion been seamlessly replaced by pills? New fire triangle: drugs, religion, righty paranoia, all laid at Republicans' feet, distilled there, and flung back to the mob.
1
We're already in a civil war, a cultural cold war.
This has been going on for generations now.
The Libs win battles, but they beat themselves, and fail their children. Conservatives are quietly winning...
I sure wouldn't push this meme. You bring out the crazies, and too many of them are young, suicidal and have access to firearms. Still, the media knows what sells.
Using the term "civil war" is reckless, inflammatory, deplorable. Any president who threatens such a thing should be impeached. Yes, some sizeable nutty and extremist subset of the Trumpies has been using the term for years. And, yes, it's just the kind of stuff (lies, racism, fear) that Trump feeds his base, which they adore him for. We are under no obligation to mainstream it. Add it to the list of impeachable offenses.
4
Yeah we get the whole social text thing. Also functions as a (non subtle) coded appeal to racism. Reprehensible regardless.
2
The USA , united states , are the only one nation to have lived through a civil war of almost one million death in the history of humanity .
@JPH
You've forgotten a far more deadly civil war, the Russian revolution.
9 to 12 million casualties makes the US civil war look like a skirmish in comparison.
That said both were horrendous, we're not likely to see such an event again.
@Rod Sheridan
I am sorry but I don't think you can compare the Russian Revolution which created and represent multiple battle fields and executions in different areas and countries for different reasons. The Red Terror in Crimea, etc...WW1 in the middle, with the US Civil War which was a real civil war between two factions inside a Nation that was supposed to be united politically.
Russia and Crimea or other nations were not united into a nation politically .
Look at it this way. I'm in my 60's. I've never before looked at a future where civil war was one of the slices until now. By diminishing this threat we aid and abet this threat. You are not calming me down with this "there, there, nothing bad is coming" like I'm some child who doesn't actually read understand or digest what I can actually see and hear. Look at the recent history of devolving democracies and tell me this pattern is not repeating itself right here on our stage. There are very bad people with way too much money directing these actions not only here but Great Britain for instance. We are already at war and the enemy is actually going to get half of us to fight the other half for them. One half is heavily armed. Guess which half that is? Here's a mind trick for you, 3 million assault rifles times 100 people. 300 million people. A single guy with an assault rifle could kill 100 people in under 10 minutes. (See Las Vegas shooter here) This reminds me of "Buck Turgidsen" on the use of nuclear weapons in Dr Strangelove. All we need now is a little "Jack D Ripper" to start everything in motion. Lets see, a nutjob, cornered, who thinks he is some messianic figure sent by God to protect our precious bodily fluids. Who could that be?
1
Should the United States devolve into another civil war, we will no longer be the leader of the free world. Ironically, the states that are liberal, i.e, California and New York and others have the largest economies and if they were to band together, the new liberal USA would have more economic power than the right wing USA. Additionally, the division would absolutely please Putin.
Thus, Trump’s civil war rhetoric, if successful, would be the ultimate treason.
1
Keeping people afraid is a very effective way to control them. It is also contemptible, but for those who have little concern for morals or ethics (Republicans) it serves as a very effective way to motivate their base and keep getting re-elected. “Fear is the mind killer.”
2
In some respects, it seems our country’s first civil war never really ended.
2
So Mitch McConnell, Kevin McCarthy and the rest, where do you stand now? For all those GOP folks in Congress and in his cabinet, do you back trump’s threats of violence?
2
Gosh, there are a lot of extremists around. Trump seems to rile them up and pull them out of the woodwork. Guess we need to find a safe place to raise the kids until we get a decent president again some day. Can’t raise em’ here with Trump in charge of the country. It’s just too dangerous.
1
A second Civil War like the first, no. But an Incivil War, yes. We're already in one.
1
What Trump doesn't realize is he is viewed by even his supporters as a as a nasty guy. Among my friends, the most ardent supporters of Trump tell me they hate his daily rhetoric. If he is impeached and removed, very few will feel sorry for him. Pence, has been utterly emasculated by Trump and is a weak figure, but he's an evangelical and stands for all the things they do and the flocks will line up right behind him without missing a beat.
1
I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all. This country is clearly entrenched in an ideological civil war; that’s beyond question. I think you’re right that organized violence on a mass scale is unlikely to occur anytime soon. Most Americans are too fat to fight anything; others are too busy posting pictures of their rear-ends on Twitter, and nearly all are obsessed with accumulating as much junk as possible before we die, and civil war tends to disrupt Amazon deliveries. But outbursts of political violence facilitated by the ubiquity of firearms? We’ve already seen that, and I think we’re in for much more of it. We’re in a cold civil war punctuated by periodic hot skirmishes. I wouldn’t entirely discount the possibility that this could blow up into something bigger. Make no mistake; Trump is fomenting it.
1
It is much like Trump's former personal attorney and fixer, Michael Cohen, said at the end of his trial. He said something to the effect that if Trump loses in 2020 he might call up his loony squad base to keep him in office through a violent coup. Well, here Trump is essentially confessing/warning that this may not be far from the truth (I never thought it was a comfortable distance from the truth.). He is a profile in scourge who cares nothing about this country. That he would dog-whistle this scorched-earth warning at this juncture is not a surprise, but it is very disturbing.
A traitor is essentially the opposite of a patriot. I cannot imagine anyone in this country of ours that could be further from being a patriot than Donald (Dirty DJ) Trump. It is the dog-whistle blower, not the Ukranian phone-call whistle-blower who is the traitor here. Maybe we should bring back Trump's good old days of "dealing with spies", and other traitors, for him and his self-above-all -else treasonous ways? No, that would be wrong. No, that would really be wrong.
1
He did it to terrorize anyone who would dare oppose him. He is really a terrorist making threats in an effort to chill opposition. His GOP supporters are happy to conjure up violent scenes of other countries torn by civil war. It’s outrageous.
2
You can't now start something that never really ended.
The Civil War has gone on and on, just in different terms: Confederate Memorials in places of honor, Jim Crow, Mitch McConnell, Birtherism, Reagan's Welfare Queens, and Charlottesville.
If they want to finally end the Civil War now, bring it on.
1
Of course, we're dealing with the impact of the incredibly cynical, manipulative and opportunistic machinations of the paranoid right media leading the uneducated and gullible by the nose; i.e., Trump. It's a toxic blend, but at the end of the day, the institutions of this great country remain strong. In two years, this will all be like a bad dream.
2
The same folks got many people to buy guns and ammunition by the truck loads after saying that Obama was going to outlaw guns and ammunition. 8 years and none of that happened, but it made some people lots of money.
When people here what they want to here, they lose prospective and become sheep.
1
Lefties “planning to kill every single Trump voter, conservative and gun owner at various protests across the country.” So they say. The righties love to hear this sort of thing because it enlivens and justifies their own fantasies. A lot of them imagine something like a video game, wherein they would exterminate their opponents with no danger to themselves. War is not like that, as those who have been there know.
So there won’t be a real civil war. But I will not be surprised if we see a lot more incidents of violence. Mostly from righties: the lefties have different fantasies and the righties are more likely to be armed. Some people with firearms will succeed in killing a number of people prior to their own demise. They imagine their demise too as a video game.
I don’t see us getting together for a long time, if ever. Too many things that appeal to too many people are pulling us apart.
3
Maybe not on the brink of civil war, but Trump did threaten violence against the whistleblower--- 'you know what they used to do to spies'. Then what?
Guns for all is an sick American credo, distorting our 2nd Amendment to excuse this threat to public safety.... such a handy outlet for angry people. GOP state media FOX creates hostile polarization with daily lies.
The satire on this by Andy Borowitz is exquisite:
“Trump Says If There Is Another Civil War He Will Get a New Note from Podiatrist
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Shortly after tweeting that his impeachment could result in a civil war, Donald J. Trump clarified that, in the event of such a war, he would seek a new note from his podiatrist.
Trump issued the clarification after military advisers cautioned that, after starting a civil war, he might reasonably be expected to participate in it.
Speaking to reporters on the White House lawn, Trump said, “Much as I would like to fight in a civil war, my very serious foot condition would keep me from doing that.”
Trump said that, although every other part of him was “extremely young and vibrant,” his feet “are in no condition to fight.”
He added, however, that the country should “think very carefully” before engaging in a civil war. “It would be very sad for the U.S. to have a civil war for the first time in its history,” he said."
Next speech will Trump cite Frederick Douglass again?
1
When Obama was elected they were selling out of guns in east Texas, the area of the state that most often resembles the heart of Mississippi in social attitudes and politics. When he was re-elected in 2012, there was a run not on guns but bullets. The gun stores reported they couldn't keep enough inventory in stock to meet the demand.
Why? Wild rumors. Wherever they get started, whether on the web or on AM talk radio, people absorb them, twist them, expand them and respond.
The fact that there was no apocalyptic event during the Obama years means nothing. "Hey, there could have been!", would be a typical answer.
Near the end of the Obama years the military was planning a major, but routine, training exercise in some of the less populated areas of west-central Texas. An invasion! It was part of Obama's plan to stay in office after the end of his terms! Even the very helpful governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, got into the act of feeding these wild, ridiculous rumors. Of course, nothing unusual happened, but, Hey! It could have, right? Always be ready for disaster.
Outlandish, far right conspiracy mongering is not just a way for radical preachers, AM radio blabbers and website operators to make money, it is a way to control people. Fill them with fear. Fill them with deadly fear of Democrats and the much hated liberals. Tell them liberals are not merely wrong, they want to destroy everything decent and good
There is considerable risk for us all in these money grubbing tactics
4
More Ruby Ridge coming. Survivalists holed up in fortified positions will simply be bombed and napalmed and grenaded. The bloodshed will be awful...
Martyrdom will be celebrated and some rural states could turn out to look like present day Iraq and Afghanistan. But the anarchists will be starved for supplies and begin to die of famine and shortage of ammunition. Mothers: don't send your boy and girls off to be part of such things on either side. This time, let the old grey beard baldies do their own fights.
1
The mere mention of a 'civil war' is enough to make me laugh. No one in this country is going to sacrifice their lives, their family's lives, homes, careers, and businesses to prove a point about a president. Time to move on past all of this FEAR MONGERING and get to the impending IMPEACHMENT of 'Traitor Trump'.
1
The fact that this piece even had to be written demonstrates how Trump has brought all the loonies out into the open (including himself).
1
Have those taughting civil war explain what they mean when they use the word 'freedom'. It's just another four lettered word those that want to rule paid big bucks to mess up peoples thinking when it comes to politics.
Does anyone believe that if Trump is impeached or loses the election that is followers are just going to shrug their shoulders and say that was fun while it lasted...if you believe that you have been in a coma for the last 3 years.
"The article reads like fan fiction, including instructions for how 'hunters in Wisconsin' might take down military tanks..."
I have a dear conservative uncle in Wisconsin who has been an avowed hunter since childhood. He's still recovering from a self-inflicted rifle wound he received from accidental discharge while climbing down from a deer blind.
Readers interested in how a second American Civil War might more realistically proceed should check out Omar El Akkad's excellent 2017 novel "American War". The author is an Egypt-born Canadian journalist who has covered the war in Afghanistan, military trials at Guantanamo, and Black Lives Matter protests in Ferguson, MO.
The real question is " why you report everything that Trump tweets about?
It's quite simple: if you're open to fear you're open to manipulation and propaganda, and you're then an empty shell of a human being scampering about the environs like an insect fulfilling the wishes of the powerful. It's your choice.
1
Why does the author treat the idea of civil war as though it’s ridiculous or impossible?
They talk about it because they are fear mongers and they want us to be afraid that we will be in a shooting war with our neighbors. I just hope I can get my lawnmower back from the next door first.
.."back from 300 meters". Excuse me, but metric units are something pushed by globalist elites.
1
The bizarre attempt to invoke this type of mayhem illustrates the unfit nature of this sad example of a human being. The dillussions of grandeur and monarch based fantasies all but require a tailored straight jacket and a team of psychiatrists as soon as possible for this President.
1
I wouldn't be as worried as all of that.
1. It's kind of hard to take armed revolution seriously when so many people can't tolerate standing in line to vote in mid-term elections.
2. A major portion of the FOX audience can't get off the couch without assistance and has the mental focus of Giuliani.
1
This dangerous demagogue will stoop to any degree to save himself, including starting a war and demanding the nation close ranks behind him.
1
Every war is 'frankly ridiculous'.
Since Moscow Mitch broke the republic in the spring of 2015, I have yet to see a single example of walking back 'illiberal notions'.
In fact, the GOP - as a collaborative - has systematically acted to destabilize and delegitimize all three branches of the federal system in myriad ways - to date without consequence.
As for 'civil war'.... it seems more likely the lawless, violent, heavily armed marauders of the extremist right will simply murder the rest of us for daring to advocate for self-governance and personal freedoms.
We are looking down the barrel of very, very dark times, and nothing that has happened to date should give us any comfort that human decency will prevail.
I encourage my young adult children to get out of this nasty hellhole of ignorance and violence, they deserve a better life and this country does not deserve their sacrifice.
Some folks seem to enjoy being apocalyptic, which, like messiah cults, brings about a new heaven and earth to replace a world at-its-end, but this is cult-thought that destabilizes vulnerable people and fraught with misconceptions about the violence that might be unleashed, the murders upon murders that only murderers could enjoy.
1
Bellicosity beyond belief.
1
A real attempt at a right wing insurrection would last about 2 days. Law enforcement, and national guard troops, if necessary, would obliterate this attempt at "civil war" in short order. This aint happening, folks!
1
The issue “civil war” has been a favourite talking point of conspiracy theorists, whose subversive influences have gained traction since Trump’s election.
Trump himself is a conspiracy enthusiast, calling the political establishment a “deep state” and accusing defenders of the institutions of being powerful, unelected bureaucrats secretly running a shadowy government, pursuing their own agenda.
Conspiracy theorists belong to the fifth column, who undermine the country from within, in favour of “a cottage industry that makes money by deepening partisan divisions.” That they have been able to thrive and spread their messages has the First Amendment to thank for.
They have been successful in reaching out to a strata of the society that lacks a social safety net. Inadequate education, bitter culture wars, and years of economic insecurity have created large groups of people who feel forgotten by their government and even besieged by it.
2
I wish that the commentators below would remember that about 90% of registered Republicans support Trump. They are not all undereducated, white working class people. Among registered Republicans are many wealthy and highly educated people who quietly subscribe to many of Trump's positions, especially when it comes to tax policy, immigration, and matters of race.
The most troubling aspects of the Trump phenomenon are how susceptible many Americans are to the pitch of a man who appears to think that he should be a dictator, and the ways in which the GOP is willing to accept this behavior because they put party above the basic principles of the American Republic.
1
The country has never healed from the last Civil War. The institution of slavery was abolished, but not racism. Race has always--from the beginning of this nation--papered over class divisions. Whenever members of the working class attempted to create cross-race coalitions, prominent politicians and business leaders reminded whites both subtlely and overtly that they were "better" than their non-white counterparts. And this is where it has gotten us.
Rhetoric aside, an important issue raised here -- one I wish was explored more in-depth -- is the profit motive behind so many of the right-wing sites. For many of the founders of these sites, it's not about ideology. It's about generating an easy income stream -- in a realm that's proven to be very lucrative.
Can't find a job? As the old cowboys use to say, "It beats wages."
I admit to worrying about a civil war, also thinking how unlikely it would be, unlikely and terrible. Even a piece of one.
This essay is just what we need to think about it.
I have this vision that Trump is going to hold another rally and get his crowd chanting "Civil war, civil war, civil war!" It is my understanding that for him to visibly encourage such a thing would be a crime. Certainly it would be an impeachable offense.
God, we live in interesting times.
I do not think there will be a civil war, but I think disunion is inevitable. America never was one country.
I doubt we will see a Civil War anytime soon. However, I think the intellectual case can be made for a Second American Civil War.
The country is split right down the middle. We have one tribe that has its head in what I call "The New Dark Age" where data, logic and reason mean nothing. Where people drive a car and go to an emergency room when their kids are hurt and all they while ignore science about things like Global Warming.
Then we have one Tribe, like the writer of this article, that thinks that everything the other Tribe holds dear is such rubbish as to dismiss them with every turn. This Tribe does not like things like guns in the hands of citizens and wants to take them away even though anyone who has actually read everything on the subject can clearly see it is a Constitutional Right, but because this Tribe just does not like that right it is willing to take it away short of changing the constitution.
My point is that the country has what one call irreconcilable differences. In a marriage you divorce and go your separate ways. For a country that cannot be done. How does a country deal with irreconcilable differences?
Civil War.
The people on the right have normalcy bias baked into their soul about things like global warming. Since yesterday was fine so will be tomorrow.
The people on the left think that because since 1865 we have always solved out tribe versus tribe issues with discussion and compromise that we will continue to do so.
Both are wrong.
If anyone needed an example of why education is important this is it. The spread of rumours of this nature is dependent on the ignorance of the target audience and the downturn in public education has given it fertile ground in which to put down roots. Republican “lawmakers“ get away with as much as they do because their supporters do not understand how the Constitution has been perverted by those “lawmakers” and how their negligence has created the monster that inhabits 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
1
The Confederate states couldn't devise any acceptable, rational defense of their grip on the institution of slavery, one that benefited only the highest elite as fewer than 5% of Southerners owned slaves.
Instead, they fabricated the "States Rights" cause and sent the majority of their young men to slaughter, disease, maiming or flight to the western frontier in service to racist, hyperbolic fear-mongering.
There are definitely parallels to Trumpland.
This time around, let's just be smart and send them off with a kiss and best wishes. Willful ignorance kills more slowly than bullets, but its just as sure. Once that fever has burned out, perhaps wiser, more realistic heads can prevail.
Much of the talk of "civil war" is a euphemism for a one-sided attempt of right-wingers to overthrow the government. Why else do they wave flags from a previous race-based insurrection? Why else did they start stockpiling weapons when Obama won the Presidency?
The two parties (Liberals and Conservatives) in Colombia talked and talked about civil war in the 1950s. Then the communists acted on the talk and started a actual civil war. The people in the parties have regretted it ever since.
You imagine civil war in outdated terms. Armies on the field in battle in well defined territory are not going to happen. But terrorism will. And America has gotten a good taste of that from enemies foreign and domestic. What is extremely worrisome is to have talk of doing violence against others out of the mouths of a deranged president and too many of his political supporters. Just consider the alarm in Britain over mounting threats to MPs. One has already been murdered over Brexit. We are right to be worried. Wrong to cower.
1
The author’s glib tone is a mistake. This is no joking matter, but I appreciate the background information. It will be totally expectable if, from deep red states, some skirmishes take place. Also, what I fear the most, these fervent Trumpers who feel their back is against the wall, may start picking off Hispanics and other people of color.
Even more alarming is that President Trump is playing Putin’s cards for him in Ukraine and G7, risking our own national security.
Those in charge of impeaching the president should emphasize the threat he poses to our national security!
1
The Trump civil war tweet was the nail in his coffin. And any Republican not condemning it has got to go.
1
It’s not a civil war that you should worry about if Trump is impeached or loses the 2020 election it’s right wing terror groups...people always say they are a small percentage of the population but 1% of 335 million is 3.35 million and they have a majority of the guns.
Want a look at civil war ?..look at Hong Kong..ready for that, that's what is being called for and will be supprted by the current administration.
Yep take a look, it will only get worse.
Chaos and blood in the streets this is a real possibility..all brought about by a handful of right wing authoritarians..looking to change most all of our experiment in self governance.
"Where will the opposing armies gather to train — Twitter?"
Actually, some of them are already training at paramilitary training centers like one in the Catskills near Cairo, NY. It is foolish of towns or states to harbor such enterprises, which put us at risk of organized violence.
1
If Trump and his followers truly believe that removing him would trigger a civil war, then perhaps it's time to dissolve this union in a peaceful manner. Let's be brutally honest: red states and blue states have mutual contempt for each other, so why are we together? If Alabama, Mississippi, Nebraska, Utah, et. al. truly feel that Trump is the second coming of the Messiah who will let them mine coal, teach creationism, and force women to carry a child to term, why do states like Maryland, New York, California, and Oregon have to tolerate them? If Trump is convicted or defeated for re-election, and refuses to leave office, let the states that didn't vote for him out of this terrible marriage. He can rule what's left, and good luck with that.
The Blue States have all the money and technology - just like last time. The outcome would be the same. Let’s all calm down a bit with the trillion more bullets language and find some way to create some common ground where everyone and their families can thrive.
"Where will the opposing armies gather to train — Twitter? How will they pick opposing uniform colors (MAGA and knit pussyhats are terrible camouflage)?"
This pretty much sums it up. It's a delusional social media fantasy war that would no doubt be conveyed as such. I can see the Instagram version already: "Does this uniform make me look fat? What does one even wear to a civil war?" Etc.
Yawn.
1
Trump referred to a civil war because that is what his wing of Americans are declaring (recall Buchanan declaring one?). How else, but via a civil war, with the worriers on FOX, in churches, on right wing radio and internet, will they ever reproduce an America that views the days prior to the civil war wistfully?
Republicans have tried absolutely everything. Redistricting, rezoning, gerrymandering, squelching voter turnout, voter frauds to segregate the country. They have systematically drained blue states to enrich the red ones. They have employed, with no small cynicism, the energies of the religious right. They are destroying one pillar of democracy after another (education, justice, environment).
In prep for a war, they have worshiped at the alter of the vacuous and the corrupt (Reagan, Bushes, Cheney, and now their own Nero-Caligula-Papa Doc Trump).
If Americans start believing dangerous nonsense that this is a democracy, that republicans are not entitled to rule everything, subjugate everyone, destroy what they wish and loot what they can - well then the consequence is a civil war that restores their unmitigated right to so do.
And, if there were to be one, I know most democrats will figure out a reason not to engage, and remain glued to their cell phones and tablets, and just plan on whining and complaining for the rest of their lives.
Hence Trump tweeted about a civil war. If there is one, he knows he is winning.
I think people may be missing the point of invoking the spectre of civil war by a president of the United States. It’s a dog whistle to the more unhinged in his base to “go ahead and get violent to protect me from Democrats.”
We’ve learned how he speaks in code and this sounds like code words to the militias he’s been whipping up at his constant rallies. They think that they understand him and can’t see how he’s manipulating them for his self interest to never lose an election.
Its starting to dawn on me that we, the American people are the real enemy if we don’t respect and encourage education, pursue truth and science and discriminate between truth and lies. We’re in a struggle for our souls and the soul of our country. This isn’t a dress rehearsal. Time to act and speak out is NOW! This is an unrecognizable America.
Many people seem to think we are back in the USA of 1860, or 1934 Germany.
To me our times resemble Spain of 1935.
The liberals in the cities are ascendant and the rural conservatives decide they can refute the ballot box with violence. It doesn't start with Ft. Sumter, it starts with gun rampages and lynchings against people who "don't belong here" or "don't love America."
These have already started. Why would I think they won't get worse?
1
@dry. Exactly. I've found myself returning to Orwell lately, for both Politics and the English Language and Homage to Catalonia.
It's a sobering comparison as the left tore itself apart with ideological debate and the Nationalists (fascists) won.
Trump's history: physically menacing Hillary during the debate; claiming Hillary will abolish 2nd amendment unless someone does something about it; take care of the protesters, I'll pay your legal bills; proud of candidate body slamming his opponent; good people in the White Nationalists camp; my military, police, bikers supporters have been peaceful til now but that might change if Dems try to oust me; civil war if impeachment and removal.
Trump gets off on others offering their bodies and souls to do his bidding.
He asks for violence from others. The man is immoral. Heel spurs and all.
Mr. Schlichter clearly got his military info from watching exciting movies, and augmented that with a vivid imagination. Only problem is, soldiers don't base their actions on exciting movies. They're trained military personnel, and they don't play games.
Mr. Schlichter has some fantasy of "hunters in Wisconsin" ambushing "fuel and ammo trucks," which is amusing but without detail. He believes that the Wisconsin hunters will "wait until the gunner pops the hatch to take a leak", shoot the soldier from behind, and "disappear."
Well no. "My tank crewmen would carry empty mayonnaise jars in the turret of the tank . . . If someone couldn’t hold it [until the next comfort stop] the jar was passed to him and he did his thing while we were on the move."
And perhaps someone should tell Mr. Schlichter about infrared goggles, that detect heat, day or night.
Seriously, civil war? Concerned about keeping your guns?
Number 1, you’d probably lose the war.
Number 2, when you do the second amendment will probably be repealed.
1
Well, except that the things that preceded the Civil War (regional polarization, scattered violence, etc.) are all happening now. Does this writer read the newspapers?
1
Just this single tweet should be enough to force this monster out of his pretend position.
How easy it is for the words, civil war, to roll out of the mouths of those who would never be in harms way.
Those like trump who threaten civil war to spread fear- divide and conquer- are chicken hawks who never served in the military and would likely be “turncoats “ depending on which side is winning.
The 25th Amendment needs to be utilized now. Then, Trump should be put under house arrest.
They've never hidden who they are -- "The south shall rise again!" President Lincoln in his haste to end the war and bring the traitors back into the fold failed to secure a future free of the fantasy return of the progeny of the defeated. He failed to have the vanquished sign a peace treaty. In criminal courts, and treason as defined by the US Constitution is exactly the crime they committed, pleading guilty isn't enough. First you must allocute and promise to abide by the terms of the court. A proper peace treaty would have laid out their treason and their complete surrender with their promised compliance articulated. Lincoln failed us all. Truth and reconciliation. Notice truth comes first. Treason is the truth we and they still refuse to speak. There is no reconciliation without truth.
Remember when he said he had the construction workers, motorcycle gangs, police and NRA in his corner? He wasn't doing that for his health. He knows that when he leaves office, he will go to jail. He'll do anything to stay in the job, including civil war, executing opponents and weaponizing his military. He'll have to be dragged out of the White House by his comb-over. This is NOT going to be a pleasant time.
Will he stay or will he go?
Is all of Trump's talk of ignoring term limits, not accepting election results should he lose, civil war if he is held accountable and removed from office just fantasies or early stage planning?
In the end it will be a contest between his malignant narcissism and his demonstrated cowardice.
Cadet Bone Spurs may know little of history but even he has to know how an attempted coup would end for him: best case for him is a short stay trapped in the White House followed by a lifetime stay in a federal prison.
I'm guessing his cowardice will overrule his narcissism.
Trump will limit his post presidency actions to doing what he does best: sowing hatred, spending other people's money and ruining the lives of anyone foolish enough to show him loyalty.
Th threats of civil war by the president are, in and of themselves, grounds for impeachment. They reckless, inflammatory and deplorable, and they are in violation of his oath of office.
1
It was extremely disturbing reading comments on Townhall today. A lot of people whipped into an ideological fervor, pledging to use their arms to defeat the "libs" who are plotting a coup against Trump, in their distorted worldview. It has become a violent cult, immune to facts, and it's getting more dangerous by the day.
Civil War and "invasion" are the heart and soul of the conservative movement. To them, politics is war without bullets; and where politics fail, bullets should be handy.
Or to be blunt: their fantasy is they're besieged settlers in a hostile land, picking off savages from circled wagons with AR-15s, and when one of them succumbs to an ANTIFA arrow, solemnly reading over the fallen from the Good Book.
So, it appears that Trump supporters with guns have to consider one question: If Trump is impeached, will you really be willing to kill your fellow American citizens en masse? That's the veiled threat about a civil war-like fracture within the country.
If there was a civil war, Trump supporters would have to drag themselves away from Fox News to muster their ranks outdoors and away from their couches, so the nation is probably safe.
Don’t even know where to start on this one. Obviously a “president” (yes quotation marks and lack of capitalization deliberate) of the USA should hardly be invoking a violent civil war. That’s so wrong on so many levels it hardly bears explanation. It is however very indicative of the fact that the US is not, I repeat not, a functioning society. Within a functioning society you need agreement on what the common goals and values within a society are. You can have some serious debate and disagreement on how to achieve and maintain said values and goals. That’s within the confines of normal political discourse and lends itself to compromise solutions. When you attempt to have a “United” society that is so polarized as to what the goals, values, and mores of said society should be, you no longer have a functioning society. The end result is a dissolution of that society. Whether it’s a violent, messy, horror filled dissolution replete with every type of human grief and misery, or some type of orderly “ you do you” dissolution brought about by redrawn borders and treaties remains to be seen. But attempting to keep this “country” together is honestly a lost cause. We’re not one country.
Civil war is trump's fever dream. The U. S. needs a leader who will bring the nation together. There will always be differences of opinion. If the treasonous pseudo-president is not removed from office by impeachment, then he must be removed by voters in 2020, along with his GOP enablers.
Part of me is tempted to just let the South leave. They will be hit harder by climate change. If they want to deny climate change so much, they can have their worse hurricanes, floods, and a 110 degree desert for broad swaths of Texas. The South is poorer and will be hit harder by the wealthy stealing all their money. So if they like Trump and his kind so much, they can have his corruption. If they like their guns so much, let them have their lack of gun regulation, so that only their children will be the only ones dying from mass shootings. If they hate having health care so much, let them go back to people with cancer running out of money and dying impoverished after selling their homes.
Can we skip the Civil War and let the Deep South continue to slide into madness and chaos on its own? They can make Trump their king, parade him around in a gold limousine, and continue their slide into corruption and despair.
Maybe not on the brink of civil war, but Trump did hint at deserved violence against the Whistleblower--- 'you know what they used to do to spies'. Then what?
And guns for all is an American credo, distorting our 2nd Amendment to justify this threat to public safety.... so handy for angry people. And the GOP state media FOX News is constantly setting up hostile polarization with daily lies.
Most apt is the exquisite, satirical News Flash for today, from Andy Borowitz in the New Yorker:
“Trump Says If There Is Another Civil War He Will Get a New Note from Podiatrist
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Shortly after tweeting that his impeachment could result in a civil war, Donald J. Trump clarified that, in the event of such a war, he would seek a new note from his podiatrist.
Trump issued the clarification after military advisers cautioned that, after starting a civil war, he might reasonably be expected to participate in it.
Speaking to reporters on the White House lawn, Trump said, “Much as I would like to fight in a civil war, my very serious foot condition would keep me from doing that.”
Trump said that, although every other part of him was “extremely young and vibrant,” his feet “are in no condition to fight.”
He added, however, that the country should “think very carefully” before engaging in a civil war. “It would be very sad for the U.S. to have a civil war for the first time in its history,” he said."
Next speech will Trump cite Frederick Douglass again?
Trump doesn’t care for what he is remembered. If his legacy is that people gave their lives or killed others to defend his “reputation” or position, he will spin that into something to be proud of, just as he spins his disdain of reading history or intelligence reports. The epitome of Narcissism.
Oh yes I forgot this issue related to terrorizing citizenry that votes differently than a neighbor.
Both parties now have an APP in local areas that uses GPS with voter data in big colored circles of blue /red/purple/etc. So if they can canvas a neighborhood knocking on doors to pass out candidates literature knowing as they greet the homeowner which party the person / family affiliates with.
In a “ civil war” this same APP will be utilized to harass voters and if trump is convicted and he instructs with his dog whistles and twitter feed to begin his coup there will be dangerous redoubt groups with guns doing trump and Pompeos dirty work. And they all have our voter data.
Did anyone think of how much more terrible this civil war will be than our last which mutilated our continent. ?
And they had no Apps to use but Gatling guns.
I'm good with "Wisconsin hunters" attacking tanks and/or the 82nd Airborne. I'd like video, please.
The dems are attempting a coup. They've been attempting to get rid of Trump by any means necessary since the day he was elected. IF they have evidence of treasonous behavior that everyone can agree to, then move forward. But if all they have is a conversation between leaders of two countries that merely references the likely corrupt behavior of a former VP, and they pass articles of impeachment on that -- then there will be trouble.
Serious trouble. Right here in River City.
The dems have waved the impeachment flag at everything, from banning certain countries, to the fictitious collusion charges, to obstruction and they've also tried to invoke the 25th amendment. Enough. They know they can't beat Trump in 2020 so their only hope is impeachment. And if those loons on the left want to over turn a legal election and disenfranchise those who voted for him, then what do you expect.
So find serious evidence of treasonous behavior and you'll get him removed from office. But this is a straw the dems are clinging to and it's pure partisan nonsense. Except it threatens the very foundation of our democracy.
It's fine to dislike Trump. But that is not grounds for impeachment.
1
@Ralphie You are right, just disliking Trump is not grounds for impeachment. However, Trump's illegal acts and misuse of the Presidency is probable cause for an impeachment inquiry. Which is exactly what is happening.
@Ralphie
President Trump is whipping his more rabid supporters and basically encouraging them to commit terrorism. The Democrats were extremely upset when the Supreme Court stopped the Florida recount and put President Bush into office. But no one from the left encouraged their supporters to use wepons to attack the government. The republicans tried to kick President Clinton out of office for lying about a sexual act, yet no one encouraged their supporters to kill cops or members of the Army to express their outrage. The justice department policy, not a law, says that you can't indict a sitting President, so the only legal and constitutional remedy for presidential corruption is impeachment in the house and conviction in the Senate. "Then what do you expect." This sentence displays exactly what President Trump wants to whip up. If my side loses then I have no choice other then grabbing my assault weapons and begin the process of killing politicians, the police, and the armed forces. A President encouraging terrorism.
@KJ Peters and Gary Bernier -- what illegal acts? What corruption? These accusations are vague, like Russian collusion.
IF the dems hadn't spent the last 2+ years trying to overturn the 2016 election and undermining the Trump presidency through the Russian collusion story -- with no evidence -- then accusations of misconduct now might be viewed as something other than partisan. And unfortunately for dems, the Ukraine narrative has less validity than Russian collusion. But the left is pushing the narrative anyway, and enhancing it -- for example -- on 60 minutes Sunday night, the host referred to Trump asking the Ukraine prez to "dig up dirt on his rivals." Trump never said any such thing, and the use of rivals, plural, is a gross misrepresentation of the content of the call.
So, give me a high crime such as treason with plenty of supporting evidence and I guarantee you Trump supporters will fall in line. But if all you've got is a gross misinterpretation of a phone call (plus misrepresentation) and it is seen as a pure partisan move (which it is) then that won't go down well with his supporters. There will be people in the streets. Whether we have a civil war is doubtful but expect people on the right to use antifa like tactics, or occupy wall street to impede and delay and obstruct. And you can expect that people on the right will now tell their followers to confront leftie officials in restaurants in a right wing version of Maxine Waters redux.
I've been on the left for my whole life, participating in "pluralist democracy" since a woman ran on an anti-war platform in the 1970 or so house primary in Pennsylvania.
I write frequently about politics, economics and ecology and post the essays at the Daily Kos under BillofRights.
My published work has included two dark themes, or possibilities, coming out of the stalemates of the Obama years, and the deep national division over the role of the state in the economy, Neoliberalism having provided the rationales for not addressing anything "big" except tax cuts again and again for the wealthy, and occasional expensive bouts of "bringing democracy to the Middle East" even as it decays at home.
The first dark theme centers on the 1850's in American political life, where slavery was the racial and political economy question that our genius for compromise could not solve.
The second centers on the years of the German Weimar Republic, from 1919-1933, which every leftist should know by heart, since it represents our worst nightmare.
There, a great scientific, educational, and industrial nation descended from Goethe to Goebbels & barbarism after the loss of national standing and extreme economic gyrations. The center of German politics, the Catholic party, sided with the Right, not the left, and could not address German economic pain.
What you left out is more important and worrisome than what you correctly cited.
These are dark possibilities, not certain outcomes.
Exactly what Jesus would do?
I can’t keep up, I thought it was MS 13 and violent Mexicans that were threatening my life and liberty. Now it’s me?
He tweeted it because he's ignorant.
I disagree with the writer of this op-ed piece. Donald Trump knows exactly what he is saying. If he is going down, he will try to take the rest of us with him; he will break this country if he needs to in order to protect himself.
He will call for his supporters to come and physically protect him from being removed from the White House. He is the one calling for Civil War.
4
We are in the equivalent of a civil Cold War. In fact The US and Soviets had more dialogue than our polarized factions. And how do we get to comity from here? It is a time to take sides.
He is the most narcissistic, reckless man to ever grace our national stage.
2
“I do want to make this prediction this morning: If the Democrats are successful in removing the president from office, I’m afraid it will cause a Civil War-like fracture in this nation from which this country will never heal.”
— Pastor Robert Jeffress
Absolutely shameful, and retweeted by Trump. The President will be removed if both houses of Congress deem him unfit, with 2/3 required in the GOP controlled Senate. Pastors should preach the word of God......period! Let parishioners use their own intellect to make political choices. Here’s a few verses that apply:
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
— Matthew 5:44
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you...
—Matthew 7:12
Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.
— Matthew 25:40
The National Rifle Association and its constituent gun enterprises are eye-ball deep in Civil War II promotion. They have already succeeded in fully arming one side and now they are turning toward the relatively untapped market on the other side. Their business plan projects no Fort Sumter moment too soon, lest they fall short of optimizing sales to their second-phase buyers.
2
Let's deal with that Civil War stuff! It's a case of misappropriated terminology leading to mistaken logic.
The major war on the North American continent in the 1850's was not a civil war. It was a war between two fully-formed nations, not an armed conflict within one nation. It was a war between the states, not a civil war within states.
The likelihood of another such war over present-day politics is nil. Republican/Democrat political rivalries are within states, not between states. Even in the reddest Republican states and the Bluest Democrat states there are substantial political minorities.
Don't be fooled by inaccurate terminology! There never was an American Civil War, and there are no state vs. state issues to precipitate one now.
1
By stating there will be a civil war, he is sending a message to his far out supporters to be prepared to stir up mayhem, if he is evicted from office or loses the election.
We should also be prepared but not intimidated.
5
If Trump wins a second term, and successfully promulgates his policies, especially those against California and other states, the Union could begin to break up like the Soviet Union. This was not civil war--just independence.
It would be necessary to save the planet. We must stop a second Trump term.
6
Barefoot and toting a squirrel rifle, my great-grandpa marched off to fight in the Civil War. Like so many Georgia mountain folk, he was impressed into service during the war’s latter days, when able-bodied men had grown scarce. When he returned after the Surrender, he never uttered one word about his experiences. Only his eyes bespoke the horrors he had witnessed and experienced. Since then, the South has mostly succeeded in transforming these horrors into something noble and beautiful, which it calls the Lost Cause. But the fact remains that the war was ghastly and the cause ignoble—truths that the current blithe talk of another civil war conveniently ignores, to our country’s peril.
4
IMO, we are already in a strange Civil War. One conducted through tweets, Youtube videos, articles in media and on TV.
Family members are split into two camps, those who support Trump et al and those who oppose them.
The idea of all out war is absurd. We can talk in a loud voice, but when the time comes, who is going to go against those we love and care about? Are we like those tribes who rose against each other and slaughter neighbors whose religion was different?
1
Such ideas as the coming Civil War are seldom taken seriously by any kind of majority until they actually happen. And then hindsight becomes 20-20. This is a very large and very diverse country, and that makes predictions both difficult and risky. We've never had a president like Donald Trump, and we've never had the kind of internet reach and craziness that now both enables and endangers us, and so trying to predict what will or will not happen if he's toppled, either by impeachment or election defeat is at best problematic. In my ideal world, Trump's anxiety and ignorance brings him to do something so outrageous that it will become the tipping point for his adoring fans and his legislative enablers, but at the same time not outrageous enough to do irrevocable damage to the country. Still, this divisiveness did not begin with Trump, and it will not end when he's gone. That is the central issue we need to address, because not to do so might well lead to the ascendency of someone fully as authoritarian but far more intelligent and cunning than Donald Trump.
2
We may, in fact, face armed rebellion. There are many frightening people in this country who are already in armed militias, ready to oppose any federal action they disagree with. Is the President giving them the nod?
7
After reading the historic injustices that have occurred since
the Emancipation Proclamation that were never spoken of in my high school history class , I have come to the conclusion that the Civil War never really ended. It was kept on a low heat burner.....Until trump turned up the heat.
17
We are already in a Civil War, in the social media. Shots are being fired, left and right, and discerning fact from fiction is becoming more difficult at best. Aside from the he said/she said back and forth, uncovering the truths from falsehoods will halt this war.
5
@Robert
At this moment, we cannot easily separate the truths from the falsehoods when people such as the leader of our country embraces and enhances the falsehoods over the provable truth.
Try showing the proof against a lie to someone determined to believe the opposite and you will understand the meaning of 'hitting the wall.'
Fear is the only card left that the right has to play. Let's be clear. There are no "No Fear" bumper stickers on Priuses; only pickup trucks. Why "No Fear"? It is displayed like a talisman to ward of the occupant's own fears. The right fears it own perceived demise through economic irrelevancy, demographics, immigration and the outrage of once having a black PONTUS. It's this perceived persecution that gives one meaning and easy answers. Sadly, there are plenty that are gullible enough to believe it and we have a president all to eager to continue stoking these fears.
15
I’ve known hundreds of men and women in law enforcement and in (but fewer) military positions over many decades. Though many sympathize with Trump’s blustering ridicule of elites, few to none of these public servants would side with illegal insurrectionists. Trump’s earlier allusions to 2nd amendment solutions, his implication that the whistle blower is a spy and deserves the traditional treatment of spies, execution, and his inviting the NRA leader to the White House to remind everyone who owns most of the guns won’t change the essential democratic character of these active and retired public servants. His allusions in May to support from police, Military and Bikers playing real rough if things got to a “certain point,” was more Buffoon blather. Besides, the very substantial presence of minorities in the military would squelch any possibilities of a coup. Additionally, most of the brass are far more dedicated to law, realism and honest evaluations of public misbehavior than the spineless GOP leadership. The Tom Cottons of the world may be tragic figures because of their ducking political responsibility but I still have faith that those who stayed in uniform are more reliable arbiters of civilian criminal behavior than those in GOP elective office.
244
I have to agree with your assessment. When people are sworn in to military service, they swear to uphold the constitution. Siding with a right wing revolt would go against everything they stand for.
34
@JK
“When people are sworn in to military service, they swear to uphold the constitution. Siding with a right wing revolt would go against everything they stand for.”
I wish I had your optimism. Unfortunately, the president and every member of the Senate and House also swore to uphold the constitution. I can only conclude that many of these individuals do not understand the meaning of a sworn oath and/or lack familiarity with the document they have sworn to defend and/or have chosen political expediency and their own well-being over their obligation to uphold the constitution.
30
@Robert Clarke I'm not afraid of people in law enforcement and the military or of an organized uprising. I'm afraid of lone sharks like the El Paso shooter. How many of white supremacists terrorism acts will there be?
23
At my left-leaning bookshop in Vermont, we have visitors from all around the country. People who come from states like Arkansas and South Carolina look around our store in wonder at the pins, bumper stickers, yard signs, and t-shirts. They say things like "If I put any of these stickers on my car, all 4 of my tires would be slashed the first day at work," or "I would love to be able to wear that shirt, but I would be really afraid of the reaction." Or, "When I moved up to New England from the south, I couldn't believe my eyes seeing so many churches with rainbow and Black Lives Matter yard signs."
It seems like the most Trump friendly areas of the country are already in a civil war against those who don't agree with the prevailing right wing theories of the day. When people live in an atmosphere where they are afraid to express their ideas, where they fear violence if they confront the prevailing racist, xenophobic opinions, how is that in line with the constitutional rights that is supposed to be a birthright?
386
@Nancy Braus
A very informative and vivid comment. Your final point is particularly sobering, and brings to mind the lynchings and burning crosses that occurred in the Southern and Western states not 400 years ago but in our lifetime - with the last widely-known Klan lynching perpetrated in 1981.
44
@Nancy Braus: I’m an expert at political protests and would like to inform NYT readers that the two most dangerous protests are precisely: 1) wearing a protest T-shirt because it is not easily removable in adverse conditions, and, 2) car bumper stickers because the vehicle is often left unattended, practically inviting keying and the other damages listed in your message.
24
@Nancy Braus This is a serious problem with the right. Since the "feel" attacked they feel it is within their right to "defend" or attack back. I totally understand those visitor's fears, they are based in reality of how people are treated where they are from. And I think that is really the point of the right wing propaganda - Don’t push churchgoing, gun-loving conservatives too far, or there’ll be dangerous consequences - the right wing propaganda is working to make sure this is a reality.
The fact they they really haven't been attacked. That on one is closing their churches, or rounding them up or even taking their guns it irrelevant to their feeling. Most of the right wing is a group of emotionally driven people who are impervious to fact or to reality. Emotionally driven people, especially in large groups, are extremely dangerous. The right wing bubble is intent on making them more and more dangerous and unstable.
42
"A Breitbart contributor argued in 2018 that “the ‘Coming Civil War’” is “already here.”"
This is about the only thing from Breitbart I've ever agreed with.
Were it not for the fact that our society is far more modern, urban, dense, technological, and multi-issue than 160 years ago, we'd likely be there. In spirit, we most certainly are, but a shooting war, not likely.
But chatting it up only increases the chance that more mass shootings will occur in the name of "coming civil war." For this reason alone, such language is seditious and inciting--that most certainly includes the president.
Such language is hardly helping his cause on the eve of impeachment hearings.
179
@ChristineMcM: Your consistently thoughtful, clear-headed and, above all, civil comments are always much appreciated here.
Thank you!
4
@ChristineMcM
Calling anything that is not a war, a "war" is wildly inaccurate. Look at Syria. THAT's civil war.
You contribute to the hysteria by calling it "war".
Even though you condemn "chatting it up".
1
@ChristineMcM Lest we forget the sobering lesson of the "Hillary's pizza parlor sex ring" affair, where one deluded soul acted with intended violence in response to such nonsense, one can only guess how many other right wingers are susceptible to these kinds of fever dreams.
6
The reason Trump and the Twittersphere are crackling with "civil war" is that there are more guns than people in the USA, and many of those are in the hands of red-state, conspiracy-loving, racist, sexist, alienated young men. We've grown accustomed to random acts of pointless gun violence, but the world is changing and that violence may be less random in the future.
If we are really on the verge of ecological catastrophe, there are two plausible scenarios. (1) Nations cooperate to radically reduce emissions and mitigate harms. (2) Nations build walls, and tribes within them fight over resources.
People of good will should do whatever they can to achieve the first outcome. But Trump and Alex Jones have intuited that the second option is more attractive to many of those who fetishize the Second Amendment.
185
@Looking-in
The only way a "hot" civil war could start in the first place is if Trump controlled the U.S. Military. It does not matter how many people own how many "pop-guns", the U.S. Military would have them wrapped up overnight, and all without the need even to get *close enough for the gun owners even to *see the U.S. Military. This gun owner idea that their little pop-guns would protect them from the U.S. Military is one of the most preciously childish pipe dreams I have ever heard. Such people have no idea of the capability of a National Military. The U.S. Military is not shooting at paper targets that don't shoot back.
31
@Nominae
What you say makes sense, but I have my doubts about at least some of the rank and file US servicemen.
1
I disagree. I cant see the military using its most advanced weapons on its own soil, and going house to house rounding people up would also be unthinkable and it would fail.
1
Back in 2015 most of us would not have guessed that this is what 2019 would look like in American politics and government. Seeing that so many of our checks and balances are really just based on an honor system, I don't completely dismiss the possibility of a trump let civil war. Just as I don't completely dismiss the possibility of Trump losing but refusing to leave.
Or what happens if liberals keep losing the electoral college while winning the vote. At some point we many be the ones wanting a separation.
206
@ahimsa. I’ve stated it before- my fear is what will happen if Trump is convicted in the House, and the Senate refuses to convict, then Trump loses the popular vote again, but the electoral college negates it. Where will we be then? .......
27
@todd sf
Todd, just take it one step at a time. This isn't one of those moves that can be strategized. The smartest thing that could be done is for a Trump-whisperer to find a way for him to step down . . .
20
@Ahimsa yes we may be the ones advocating a separation. Especially because we blue states pay for everything the country needs done.
33
Is this president so delusional that he thinks his base is going to rise up and take arms against their neighbors? I am tired of listening to my brother-in -law rave about ALL the great things, many many great things, that this president has done but I shine him on and consider the source. I don't think my neighbor is going to start shooting at me just because he has this president's bumper sticker on his van. It is time this president is removed from office by impeachment or the ballot, ( I would prefer the ballot). As for the preachers using their pulpit as a political soapbox hit them in their pocket, remove their tax exempt status if their pulpit is used for political endorsements. Truly separate church from state.
311
@Patrick
Agree. Let's not lose sight that this was a retweet of Robert Jeffress of First Baptist of Dallas, a megachurch. He just happens to be in a sermon series on Revelation, which he takes to be a literal prophecy of the coming end times. This mindset is prevalent among evangelicals.
13
@Wendy
How else would these evangelicals keep their congregations? Scare tactics pure and simple. What about God is Love? Guess they all forgot that one.
12
@Joyce Benkarski
I'm with you, Joyce.
4
It is surely a “high crime” for a sitting president to threaten, warn or call for civil war. Add this to his articles of impeachment. If he isn’t driven from office in shame, then we are witnessing a turning point in our country’s history. We may have already passed the point of no return. Trump’s depravity is mind boggling.
390
@Steve Collins -- Trump has no shame. If he is impeached and convicted, despite the odds against, he will refuse to leave the White House until he is confronted, arrested, and dragged out for his perp walk. Same if he is not elected in 2020. I repeat, Trump has no shame!
1
@Steve Collins- Wait a minute, Steve!
I hereby demand to know who found out about the civil war my liberal compatriots and me had planned for this past July 4th!
We were all set to go till Trump gave that moving speech on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Besides, our stiff-collared uniforms were too insufferably hot.
There we were, each of us carrying handout pamphlets containing famous quotes by Noah Chomsky in one hand and biodegradable water bottles in the other, Stars & Stripes bandanna's wrapped across our foreheads declaring, "Free Tuition & Medical Care for All!"
In our fanny packs we had small supplies of natural foods, as well as seeds for planting new trees and vegetables following the certain devastation in the form a nuclear response from the Breitbart Brigade. (As you can see, we were highly organized and well planned.)
There's more I could tell you, but first I'd need to see your secret liberal code - preferably bearing a notarized endorsement from an Ivy League Law School or Berkeley (Cal Tech could work, but only if you're from west of the Mississippi). And you'd have to be wearing an Apple Watch with a Siri app. Otherwise, I'd have to banish you to watching a continuous loop of the final episode of Game of Thrones for 24 hours, while sitting next to Ralph Nader.
Ah, the risks I run as a liberal without a civil war to fight.
If only Trump hadn't spoken coolly that hot summer day.
4
Trump began his campaign by saying Mexicans were criminals and rapists with some, he supposed, good ones.
After gaining the nomination, Trump said he would not acknowledge the election results unless he won.
He said if Secretary Clinton won, there might be a "2nd Amendment" solution.
He won the election with a razor thin margin of 72,000 votes in 3 states through the Electoral College, through direct support from Putin and the GRU according to 17 American intelligence agencies.
Since then, he has cozied up to dictators, been Putin's best advocate, and turned on our trading partners and NATO allies.
He and his family have received enormous funding from foreign powers in exchange for political influence.
Now only incompetent loyalists remain as cabinet members and White House staff, until they are tossed aside.
He is withholding desperately needed military aide to the Ukraine to manufacture dirt on his political opponents, as Russia attacks the largest democratic sovereign country in Europe.
He is now threatening to arrest a sitting Congressman prosecuting his case (for treason), arrest a whistleblower (for treason), and start a civil war in the county.
Trump is becoming increasingly unhinged as the walls are closing in on him. Federal and state forces should be on alert for a realization of Trump's call to violence.
Congress should investigate and impeach with all due dispatch while the US is still a free democratic country.
580
@David Parsons
Excellent summary.
38
@David Parsons
Yes, Congress should investigate and impeach if the facts are there.
But more importantly, the cabinet should be declaring Trump mentally incompetent. Where are the Republican patriots?
25
@David Parsons
You level those accusations as though they were bad things. I begin to doubt your patriotism.
But your belief that the US is a free democratic country is so adorable that much is forgiven.
Please, though, try to catch up.
1
Five years ago I came across a journal from the Civil War era with over 100 pages of handwritten poetry. The most interesting poem was titled, "A Few Remarks On The Southrine Revolution," signed by Marcellus Frederick Henry Smith, and dated October 19, 1862. I've since learned that Smith was a 22-year-old bookkeeper from Brooklyn who was working in Pittsburgh during the Civil War. Smith's poem focused on the mentality of those who supported the Confederacy, and what he wrote 157 years ago perfectly describes what we see today among Trump supporters.
2
I try hard to see the world through the eyes of others, especially those who disagree with me. Otherwise how can one ever hope to find common ground?
But when I read about how susceptible so many Americans apparently are to outrageous and outlandish conspiracy theories and just plain falsehoods, I ask myself this. Is this the same country that put man on the moon 50 years ago? The same country that leads the world in Nobel prizes? The world’s favorite destination for foreign students who want to study abroad? The world’s leader in scientific, technical, business and economics leadership? The country to which so many aspire to immigrate?
Does the US also lead the world in the most incurious, gullible, and fact challenged people?
1018
Unfortunately, the reality is that about 1/3 of all people, not just Americans, are less educated and susceptible to manipulation by unscrupulous parties. So the good things you mentioned about the United States are not diminished by the always present Trump-voter-type class.
49
@Peter Do we spend the most time watching mindless entertainment and the master work of a mostly-unregulated advertising industry? And the result of that is?
62
@Peter. I spent a couple of years in the US as a grad student about 20 years ago. The political divisions were sharp (Bush v. Gore had just happened) but there was nothing like the level of vitriol we see today.
My simplistic analysis is that conservative talk radio built the echo chamber. Foxnews made it worse. The Internet (esp. Twitter) escalated the name calling by another degree of magnitude. Advances in technology are essentially as a centrifuge forces renting society apart. There is no matching centripetal force bringing people together.
161
The spectre of a civil war should not have been invoked by the side with all the guns and ammo. That was reckless, knowingly so, and it crossed a line. I live in a rural area. My neighbors generally have guns. I never want to feel that I must also arm myself in order to be safe.
7
I can't help but wonder if articles like this inflate the extreme right wing and cause more fear among the populace than is necessary. How many of these extremists, left or right are there? How much of a threat are they really? Is this article in the end just more click bait? After all, it got me to read it, but I wonder how real the threat actually is. I don't feel better informed. I just feel more frightened.
3
The rhetoric coming from rightwing provocateurs echoes the incendiary language coming from Southerners before the Civil War, because they, like their spiritual Southern forebears, want war. They really have no plans for their new nation outside of worshiping The Second Amendment, establishing a theocratic government run by Evangelicals, and white supremacy.
Remember that secession didn’t even take Lincoln being president, let alone attacking the South in any way except disagreeing with them on the issue of slavery. He was neither prepared nor intent upon abolishing slavery when he came to Washington as President-Elect. In their frenzy, 7 states had already seceded and named Jefferson Davis as Provisional President of the CSA before Mr. Lincoln was inaugurated. And then the CSA attacked Fort Sumter (giving the lie the Southern euphemism, “The War of Northern Aggression.) It took two year and a war for Mr. Lincoln to declare slaves free, and then only in the state in rebellion against the Federal Government.
The Yahoos won’t be happy until they start a war (or a facsimile thereof) and they won’t be happy if they lose—we’ll have to listen to them grumble for the next 150 years about how “they was cheated.” If they win, a lot of us will have the blessing of being dead, and not having to listen to their nonsense anymore.
90
@Steve Andrews
Not to mention that if they lose, they can then put their hands out for 'reparations', that the old union states have been paying into the confederacy for those 150 years, where the South gets a lot more money from the feds then it pays in.
10
@Steve Andrews That is exactly what I find frightening. These yahoos are really going to start shooting people based on an emotional frenzy that has no basis in fact and is driven by the right wing propaganda machine
2
@Steve Andrews: In "Good Omens", a satirical/comic tale of a possible nuclear Armageddon and the destruction of the earth, the forces of "Good" declare that the the point isn't to avoid Armageddon, but to win it.
2
The depiction of Trump as a fascist rebel seeking a violent overthrow of the American political and economic system is beyond absurd. The man is a verbal warrior who would never risk his fortune (or skin) by taking up arms against a system that has enriched his family. Trump's endless references to his "vast" wealth as emblematic of his greatness clearly expose his priorities.
The president, to be sure, takes reckless chances with his inflammatory tweets, but such foolhardy behavior reflects the carelessness of a man who has not had to face the consequences of his own misdeeds. If his followers took him seriously and violence broke out, the president would be the first to "duck and cover."
12
@James Lee
Wrong! At best, the president is now making poor decisions and at worst he is increasingly detached from reality. In recent days, it has been revealed that he refused to listen to his advisors about discredited conspiracy theory in the Ukraine, that he called a member of the House of Representatives a traitor, that he threatened a whistle blower with harm and to top it all off, threatened a civil war.
Over the weekend, he sent 130 tweets-130!
These are the actions of a man who is obsessed with his own survival and is desperate. As the pressure ratchets up, his mental state may or may not unravel. There are no guarantees on how this will play out.
Ignorance is strength. That's why Trump attacks truth so relentlessly. More importantly, it makes money for those who exploit the masses who are being gaslighted.
7
Amplifying the notion of civil war is shocking and genuinely treasonous. This makes me think twice about Trump's meeting with Wayne LaPierre the other day. There are plenty of MAGAts just itching for a chance to lock and load for Trump. I dread the imminence of the next mass shooting. Will the 'president' and his wife pose with the survivors again? It's disgusting, and unfortunately, effective in generating fear. I feel like we're trapped in a bad Hunger Games movie.
2
It's no laughing matter, but we needn't fear such bluster.
2
Talk of a civil war is just more red meat for Trump's followers. Dreams of using their arsenals of guns to defend their white supremacist leader.
Trump has the Civil War conspiracy folks tucked right into the palm of his hand. They'll vote for him for a 2nd and a 3rd term.
The Civil War folks plans are centered on gun ownership and fueled by fears of gun grabs and open battle with assault weapons.
Get real.
The only people who are going to take people's guns are the Trump Administration as they start their 3rd Term as a dictatorship, votes generously provided by Trump supporters deluded by Trumps endless barrage of lies. Trump idolizes Putin; he'll model his government after the Russian dictatorial plutocracy.
You think people in Putin's Russia own guns? That is Trump's openly declared goal, Dictator. He claims it is a joke; it isn't. He can't have guns, or voting rights, among the people, they could revolt once they recognize where the country is headed.
4
Trump has all but waged war on the planet, on civility, on the truth, and on liberal democracy. His words and actions have reopened the wounds that have remained unhealed since 1865. He has reignited border wars in all parts of the country and remade common enemies. His words have prompted some to kill. Trump has prompted carnage. Trump has widened the gap.
No alternate reality can redeem him.
7
Notice that with all the GOP braying, bluster, and babbling, they have completely forgotten that Bush-Cheney was president for eight years. No consciousness of all the wreckage he unleashed. No interest in finding out what was in the presidential briefings that he ignored. No interest in his administation's war crimes. For them, the world goes straight from Clinton to Obama and back to Clinton.
4
"You don't step into the same river twice". So looking for the next Harper's Ferry is futile.
But I don't recall as much violence in the air since desegregation. Blacks, mostly, got killed in the civil rights struggle, by people with guns. Back then, it was the deep south but today there is a wider dispersion of evil men (most always, it's men) with guns, more powerful ones.
If you say a true civil war, splitting our military, is possible your are wrong. But if you say our bully in the pulpit. Donald Trump, has the power to spark civil strife, you are talking realistically. To say it can't happen here, ignores history.
4
@Frank McNeil
To say it *can happen ignores military reality. Unless the Trumpistas have their own Navy, Air Force, Army and Marines, or unless our entire U.S. Military goes with Trump, the idea that a bunch of groundlings with guns are going to go up against Tomahawk Missiles raining down is just plain ludicrous. The Navy can sit off the Coast of the U.S. and hit targets as far inland as need be. This war talk is just the ramblings of a now justifiably paranoid and previously mentally unbalanced POTUS who senses that his Charade is finally falling apart.
This piece suggests something I've often wondered about when considering about the extreme right. I think part of their delusional fantasies about "liberals" is that they are somehow a mirror image of THEM: raging with anger, armed to the teeth, and ready to start all-out war.
The weird thing about it is that even the most radical leftist usually aren't armed, and a lot of "liberals" would run screaming from any hint of violence. At least that's what I've seen.
But then other times rightwingers DO refer to "the left" with terms that make them sound like naive wimps. So it seems like they can never make up their minds.
I think in the world of oversimplifying and conspiracy-mongering its just easier to think of "the left" as full of rage and violent intent because THEN its easy to know what "has to be done" about them, whereas if they're NOT like the far right, then who can say what to do about them?
This civil-war mongering, however mainstream its become, seems to be about creating a "devil you know", so everyone will "know how to respond." They would probably feel a lot less menaced if they knew who a lot of average Democratic voter were.
But then given how ridiculous a lot of this is, maybe they WOULDN'T feel less menaced. Maybe they have to make monsters out of their opponents no matter how those opponents actually behave in real life!
1
Civil war there will not be, because it takes two opposed armed forces to have a war, be it asymmetric. But the liberals and the left are essentially unarmed; they have no weapons and not likely to pick up arms. The opposite holds true for the right-wingers. So a massacre is more likely. Some will likely call it a cleansing.
Of course trump believes there will be a civil war designed to protect him. After all, how can millions resist getting their guns ready in order to extend the presidency of the stable genius.
3
Well, try this on for size. Treason exists in levying war against the United States. In a civil war, the instigators will be traitors, so they had best not begin one until they are sure of winning. Lincoln and his government were tolerant and forgiving, but that is no guarantee that it will be so this time if there is a civil war. There is growing evidence that fear-based "conservatism" is actually the product of an uncaring environment and an enlarged anygdala. I say fear-based because there are logic-based conservatives who tend to worry about government overgrowth and fiscal responsibility. In any event there could be an idiotic eugenics push for retroactive birth control on the traitors who have the large amygdala "for improvement of the race".
Actually all the fearful need is a reduction in the noise-to-signal ratio. A few discreet thumb amputations could make a great deal of improvement in the rage of demagogery that feeds on and profits from fear.
There’s nothing more than our narcissist in chief would like better than “his people” fighting to the end to keep him in office. Trump never thinks of consequence, he just wants his voracious ego fed. He loves dictators and that’s what he’d become if he had the chance. The scary part is some people would let him.
3
“Where will the opposing armies gather to train — Twitter? “
I agree, this Civil war talk is disturbing, but this line made me laugh in relief. Thank you.
4
Trump loses, balks, and the blue states secede. No guns necessary. We get to keep our tax revenues, we have plenty of cultural assets.
4
Your article offers a valuable in-depth analysis and history of this particular right-wing meme.
I'd like to add that Trump loves to wink in the direction of violence. The trope itself may have its roots in the smellier alcoves of the far-right's Internet recesses, but with Trump, I also suspect his not-so-latent desire to stir up mobs and thuggery.
There's that, and also the sad reality that Putin loves to encourage chaos, open conflict, and class warfare in enemy states.
i constantly wonder how trump supporters can be so gullible, and i am constantly amazed
12
"Civil War" may be overstating it, but it actually is quite likely we're heading into a period of widespread sectarian violence. A mandatory gun seizure, no matter the form or scope, would definitely result in violence. Trump refusing to leave office and exhorting his cult to violence would as well.
Pieces like this that so smugly dismiss the threat are naive.
1
@Jim
What is civil war if not widespread sectarian violence? What is gun seizure if not mandatory taking of guns? What is dismissive about a piece that highlights the threats of dangers from the deep state swamps?
@Jim
I say bring it on, and the "gun enthusiasts" will suddenly discover why we pay so much for our U.S. Military. You don't put an AR-15 up against a Carrier Battle Group.
The sons of Confederate Alabama Addison Mitchell McConnell,Jr. and Jefferson Beauregard Sessions, III were firmly focused on reversing the outcomes of the Civil War and Civil Rights eras by peacefully remaining in and occupying the District of Columbia while sitting in the Republican Party majority in the U.S. Senate.
4
Trump is irresponsible tweeting about civil war. He is frightening people. Part of a president's job is to reassure citizens, not scare them to death. But, Trump has never been a responsible person.
6
Trump's rich supporters need to sit down with the leaders in the Senate to convince them that impeaching Trump is the right thing to do. Otherwise, the rich will be the first to loose all that they have established and procured over the years should there be a civil war.
2
Not going to happen, this country is not nearly as divided as it was in the 1960’s where between the Vietnam War , and the Civil Rights movement, riots in the cities, and on the campus’s the nation felt like it was truly coming apart
3
As the saying goes: 'You can fool some of the people all of the time". The Republican Party reminds me that this is true, now more than ever. It also shows that they are truly unoriginal in co-opting strategies of the past however treasonous or despicable. Some people stubbornly refuse to grow and change for the better.
3
There is an additional implicit purpose to the "civil war" label that the article buzzes around but doesn't quite land on: an appeal to aggrieved whites who consciously or unconsciously feel that the country is being betrayed if immigrants, black people, non-white foreigners (Norwegians are ok) have a place in this republic.
It hearkens back to the real Civil War, when bigotry lost (at least temporarily). It is an appeal to white supremacist instincts in the white population.
Because the appeal is to the bigotry and hatred of Trump's base, it doesn't matter if the claims are baseless. They are metaphors for "fear and hate those people."
4
It's deeply troubling that a selfish, self-centered egomaniac was elected President. That action alone means a significant amount of the United States not only thought this was a good idea but that they continue to support him in spite of his increasingly unstable actions.
7
I think some people from New York should spend some time elsewhere so that they understand the massive size of their own country.
"For liberals, it is a warning: Don’t push churchgoing, gun-loving conservatives too far, or there’ll be dangerous consequences."
Please don't conflate "churchgoing" with "gun-loving", nor with "conservatives".
Maybe because my email address includes the word "right," I get fairly frequent right-wing newsletters, which keep me up to date on things like whom the Clintons have murdered lately and which Democrat has been "slammed" or "crushed" by a Trump-lover's witty riposte. But what confuses me is how these folks proudly call themselves "patriots" and "freedom fighters" while defending a lying, greedy, hypocritical con artist who has accepted the assistance and advice of the Russian president, denigrated the national Intelligence community, run up the national debt with giant tax cuts for himself and his wealthiest donors, declared his affection for foreign dictators, and been laughed at in the UN national assembly. It's rather frightening to imagine what they would go to "war" for.
9
@Carol Robinson Identity.
As an American living in Germany for the past few years, let me say, the language of war is not used. The simple reason is the continent still has the scars of two world wars. Those who say civil war..have no idea what war on their own land is.
6
Let's be honest, here. You don't have to go back to the Civil War to see the federal government overriding the states and forcing them to do something.
The last time it happened was in the 1960s, with the enforcement of civil rights and the Voting Rights Act. That is within working memory for a lot of these people. The federal government forcing them to give little black kids entrance to white schools.
It's no coincidence this "Civil War" rhetoric got stirred up during the Obama Administration. Some people are terrified out of their minds that black people and Latinos can vote in large numbers and that white people are about to be a racial minority -- because they are afraid that those other groups might turn the tables and do to them exactly what they spent 400 years doing to black people. No wonder the Democrats' power feels like an existential threat. To racists, it is.
2
One aspect of describing the impending "Civil War 2.0" is not clearly stated in this article, even though it is pellucid to me. Those who predict, envision, and/or promote a second Civil War are of precisely the same mindset as those who drove us to the first Civil War: hateful racists who are seeking to ensure the supremacy of the white race, economically and politically. I am not so deceived as to believe I can change their minds with my reasons, but, the sane among us will acknowledge, we are all of the human race and equally entitled to the opportunities and benefits of our nation.
3
Tribal societies eventually end up in a civil war. We are no exception. If there is a solution to our situation I would like to hear it.
3
Any hint suggesting violence or civil war should be immediate grounds for removal from office.
7
The problem with conceptualizing Civil War II--and I, among others, have certainly considered it a distinct, if not likely, possibility--is that it would be nowhere near as geographically demarcated as Civil War I, with even splits into contiguous "red" and "blue" states--there are too many blue urban dots in otherwise red states, and red rural areas in otherwise blue states, for this to happen.
Of course, even in the 1860's, the states were not monolithic, and do recall that West Virginia came about because those in north and northwest Virginia did not want (for the most part) to secede from the Union.
But it's very hard to see any sort of clean split scenario; much more likely there would be numerous enclaves surrounded by opposite stretches, even down to a neighborhood basis.
How that would play out militarily is anyone's guess; a series of rolling skirmishes among irregular militias?
The real wild card in all this is how our military would react if this started, and how many factions it would have competing. A basically unified command could probably put a stop to the whole thing fairly quickly. But I suspect that is not guaranteed--the military certainly has pro-Trump/Evangelical and anti-Trump/evangelical groups . . .
1
The civil war idea resonates because so many people have thought of it for themselves and experience a little surprise moment of recognition when they hear someone else speak of what they thought they had independently imagined on their own. I have said for several years now that we are in a slow-motion civil war. Are we a leftist-socialist nation, or a rightist-capitalist one? Neither side seems willing to cede anything to the other, discuss it in civil fashion, or compromise their principles. What is the answer to this? Well, a lot of people on both sides think the only real answer is victory; considerable numbers on both sides want and are seeking victory. Widespread perception that one side thinks it has won could lead to the real thing.
11
@Ronald B. Duke
No. Elizabeth Warren and Biden are NOT" leftist-socialists". They are NOT against capitalism. This simply isn't true, and by constantly repeating it, you're reinforcing the idea that both sides WANT a civil war. How many times do we have to keep going over the same ground? Obama's health care plan came from Republicans. A lot his major decisions would've been considered conservative 20-30 years ago. And even Bernie, who is proud to say he's a socialist, is NOT about launching a war against capitalism, any more than West European countries want to get rid of capitalism. Its simply not so.
It is conservatives who will not accept ANY restrictions on capitalism or ANY role for the federal government in virtually any activity besides the military. There is no leftist "quest for victory". The just want to get some compromise position in which capitalism and anti-government conservatism are in some ways LIMITED, so there can be a compromise. Liberals ask 'can we tax the wealthy by 5% percent more'? And conservatives don't respond with "how about 2% more"? Instead they respond with "No. No more. Ever." And THEN when they get enough votes, the first thing they want to do is lower taxes on the wealthy even more. If you have any belief in government doing ANYTHING, how can you work with anyone that uncompromising? If you don't believe me, look up the name Grover Norquist. And THEN, see if you can find any modern Republicans who disagree with him.
150
You CANNOT campaign on a platform of handcuffing corporations, confiscating wealth and economic distribution yet claim to value a capitalist. Such actions belie those words. Restricted or managed or regulated capitalism is no longer capitalism.
2
@From Where I Sit sure it does. We restrict capitalism now in almost every industry. Licensing. Manufacturing regulations. Employment and contract law.
No pefect system exists if people’s decision making is involved. Rules are out in place to level the playing field and afford equal opportunity as well as to protect others from greed and avarice, characteristics that are flaws in the human nature of some.
Let’s take down all of the traffic lights and see how traffic moves. Lol
42
This article really cracked me up as totally hilarious. I was drafted into the US Army in 1971 and then trained to be a military stenographer. I was sent to work in the Pentagon in an agency called the Directorate of Military Support. The government was worried that things might really get out of hand with all the civil rights and anti-war protests and was prepared to use the US military to assist state and local authorities to suppress any such uprisings. Do people on the right really have any idea that they would need to take on the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines, etc. In their so-called “civil war?” Good luck with that.
5
I hate to say this, but I see civil war as a natural consequence of an increasing obsession with identity politics. If elections turn into mere contests of people of different races fighting for money and power, why bother having an election? Why not just a fight a real war and get things over with?
@John Chenango - Because the country would be destroyed and millions of people would die?
It is one thing for the crazies to cry "civil war!" and weave their fantasies about hunters defeating the most powerful military in the world. It is quite another for the president of the United States to take up the same language -- as a threat of violence should he be removed from office. This is language in effect encouraging his supporters to contemplate treason. Is this really acceptable in a president?
6
@Gary nothing about this president is acceptable.
How can anyone can say "we are no closer to a (frankly ridiculous) civil war" when the president's words have already inspired (at least) one gun massacre?
5
Ooooh, I'm scared. I can see their misspelled protest signs, their 4x4 flag waving camo trucks with McDonald's greasy wrappers flying out while they "roll coal" in our faces. They are in the minority and they know it. We'll just laugh at their antics while their leader tweet storms and we merrily go our way.
We're onto them, no fear, thanks to the righteous who have blazed the trail for us, King, Kennedy, Ghandi, Milk, et al. We're in good hands, the light at the end of the tunnel is right in front of us.
6
We learn from recent history that it doesn't take much to trigger violence between people within a country. E.g. Rwanda, Syria. While I hope this doesn't come to be, I wouldn't be surprised if we got to that point.
2
Right out of the pages of Hofstadter’s “The Paranoid Style in American Politics” from 1964. The combination of Trump’s narcissism and the paranoid tradition is indeed frightening. But so far, reason has triumphed over psychosis in the body politic. Enough people recoil at the very suggestion of latter day Antietams and Gettysburgs to prevent them from ever happening again.
1
The possibility of a civil war is real. Trump has polarized the country as no other President since Lincoln. Trump's supporters are fed daily lies and fake conspiracy theories and believe they are being threatened by minorities. Like Trump they are paranoid of any criticism. Worse yet the country is in a state of anarchy since the attorney general and Justice Department have been taken over as Trump's private law firm. Rule of Law is currently a left wing theory and not a reality when it comes to the Trump administration.
4
There is a difference between "then" and "now" - unedited, inflammatory social media. Perhaps it is time to shut them all down for a while before we end up in a situation that gets out of hand.
1
I can answer some of your incredulous questions. Yes, we are very much on the brink of a civil war, between the left and the right. Geographically it could happen between the sanctuary cities and their allied Hispanic-majority areas in the South vs. the rural or Northern states. What will likely happen is that the historically Mexican possessions will be reconquered by Mexico. Diverse urban areas will be allied in this war against the Northern-European parts of the US. The Squad is already talking about that, like when AOC says “this is our land.”
This...
"a frequent commentator on Fox News, argued in favor of buying guns in February, noting, “It’s going to be total war.” A day later, an MSNBC host expressed her fears of looming civil unrest."
...is presumably meant to suggest that both sides are ramping up the civil war rhetoric. But notice that the MSNBC comment is fearing it, while the Fox "News" commentator is stoking it.
This is a one-sided issue, and it should never be equivocated.
5
The civil war alignments are already largely drawn up - evangelical rural Republican voters versus Atheistic city Democrats. Take almost any issue and the 2 sides are diametrically opposed. Worse, legislation is increasingly imposing on what each side considers to be fundamental rights. Does the First Amendment protect religious identity against the Left's demands that a baker support homosexual marriage? Can colleges ban free speech on campus that isn't deemed hate speech by the Left, or does that pesky First Amendment get in the way? Do Americans have the right to defend themselves, their families, and their neighbours, or is the Second Amendment outdated? Should America copy China and set up detention\organ harvesting facilities for those deemed enemies of the state? Based on the rhetoric of the Left if seems that those on the Right have cause to fear. Trump's post about impeachment causing a civil war like fracture is thus right on target. For those on the Right it is a coup, for those on the Left it is the crushing of a hated enemy. Remember Democrats have already expressed interest in impeaching Pence next, and installing Pelosi in the White House. Even if Democrats adhere to the letter of the law, violating the spirit will fracture the country worse than it is.
It's surprising that so many men are willing to advertise their feelings of personal inadequacy. But one did that all the way to the Oval Office, so I guess it's fashionable in some circles.
3
Trump has been pitting people against one another for years. Talk of civil war is another disturbing development in Trump’s cynical ploy of dividing and conquering.
What exactly would the civil war be about? The wall? an assault weapons ban? Whether climate change is real? The issues dividing the country in the last civil war had major sociological and economic consequences. If we went to war over the issues that divide us now, history would judge us the biggest fools of all time. But hey, if the red states want out of the union, I sure wouldn't fight to keep that from happening.
1
I know it sounds ridiculous to contemplate this but I think the Spanish Civil War seems more of what might come than our own civil war. Villages and towns were split by Communists (Spanish Republicans) and Franco's aristocratic (Fascist) supporters.
We do live in scary times.
Even if we remove Trump, what do you do about those that still listen to right wing radio and Fox News where the audience is not tasked with figuring things out or in finding our common humanity but are placed on a heightened state of alert of 'watching for those who are taking the country away', i.e. browns, blacks and liberals.
I think the biggest task facing our country is getting those who support Trump to understand that, while you might be encouraged by right wing media in your animus towards minorities, the very wealthy are pulling up the carpet behind themselves and leaving nothing but breadcrumbs to be fought over.
4
Civil “war”? Naaaah. But dissolving the Union as we know it? Maybe. The electoral college has decreased the value of the urban dweller’s vote considerably. Now Trump wants to punish California by removing Congress-approved highway funding.
Maybe you should reread the opening paragraph of the Declaration of Independence if you have time. It could easily apply to California.
Be careful.
1
These threats of "civil war" (and other violence) are not fear mongering. The angry and resentful 40% who comprise the republican base are taken much more seriously than the other 60% in part because it is not thought that the other 60% might turn violent. Some day, these thoughts of a passive Left might turn out to have been a mistake, but these ugly ideas are part of why that 40% is payed so much attention to.
2
Trump enjoys frenzied adulation from his base. If they're not constantly whipped into a frenzy, they're just 'voters'. He wants worshiping fans.
“For conservatives, it’s the notion that Democrats will stop at nothing to get rid of Mr. Trump .....”
The problem here is this is exactly what “The Resistance” screamed from day 1. And every day since.
Trump’s an abomination, but the Dems have fueled the speculation of the pro-Trumpers at every (mis-guided) opportunity.
To someone who's on the outside looking in (as it were) it does seem an awful lot like the patriotic conservatives are saying "We are 100% behind the law of the land. Unless we lose. If that happens we'll shoot everyone we disagree with."
4
Read" animal farm" a short telling story (can be found in local libraries),basically providing an atmosphere of fear allows the ruler to govern unposed.
1
I'm not even American, never mind Republican, but there's no doubt that an attempt to seize so-called assault rifles would cause many incidents of violence.
Even if only one owner in a million popped off, that would still be plenty of shootouts. You might end up in a situation where a SWAT team needs to attend while police search for guns. Tens of millions of times.
Only a naif would deny the likelihood of violence in such a program.
All of this nastiness is enabled by social media.
For the good of all we care about, we must strongly discourage these tech giants (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, others....) until they prove that they can verify the quality of their product.
As it currently stands, their products are harmful to citizens, like cigarettes and contaminated water.
1
Did the people who spread the satire of antifa not know it was satire?
Could a right wing Onion exist, or a conservative Colbert?
On the left, irreverence is channeled into satire that tries to put a smile on people's faces by contemplating and riffing on the absurd. On the right, irreverence turns into the absurd itself- literal directions on how to hunt down and kill phantom deep state agents coming for you guns in the woods of Wisconsin!
The right seems to be mired in a malaise fueled by taking everything too literally. Know what I mean?
6
I think we should take seriously the idea that a Trump defeat in 2020, or the failure of a hand-picked successor in 2024, will lead to violence.
One of the differences between the alt-right camp Trump's gathered to him and older extremist right groups is their relationship to the government. For older groups, they were basically separatists who felt that the federal government was too corrupt, diverse, or inherently authoritarian to ever be anything but oppressive.
For the more polished, new model fascist, Trump's rise has encouraged them to imagine that they could seize the government and use its power to create their white enthno-state vision. They are, unlike their predecessors, pro-government.
If the white nationalists of more recent vintage find themselves suddenly cut out of governance, I don't feel like it is hard to imagine them swelling the ranks of the more violent, more apocalyptic, less integrated right-wing fringe.
I feel we're kind of like kids in the days leading up to mass shooting: everybody knows the creepy kid with the gun obsession is making more and more wild threats; but nobody with any authority seems to want to believe him.
3
The USA are the only nation in the history of mankind to have had a civil war of that amplitude of mortality and lack of humanity.
The " United States " . More united today than ever.
But it is interested to know ow that civil war was related to capitalism.
Read the articles of Marx and Engels journalists in London for the German press before the US civil war
Threats of civil war breaking out should Donald Trump be removed from office prompt the question: How many of his loyal followers are prepared to die for Donald Trump, or, for that matter much of what animates the radical right? Based on the hysterical reactions from these quarters when anyone on their side suffers even a minor wound, my guess is not very many.
3
He tweeted something that would be deemed too low for everyone else living in this country because he thinks if he can ratchet-up placating his base, his crowd size increases and he instantly feels better about himself because he'll know he's not the only unpatriotic American that likes to hypocritically claim otherwise.
1
Civil war in this country would not look like the civil war of the 19th century and those who foment it would do well to remember that. While there are red states and blue states, there are very few that are overwhelmingly so. Cities tend to be liberal and rural areas tend to be conservative. So how does that work? Farms against the condos?
And lest one thinks all of the guns are on the farm's side, read city newspapers for a day.
6
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."- Abraham Lincoln, 1862.
Your last paragraph is the essence of our intractable problem. Trump is not a statesman. Never was. Never will be.
3
The right insisted on civil war to defend slavery. Now it threatens another to prevent equal rights. I predict the same result for the right: defeat and disaster and the promise of a new and successful reconstruction. The right has in trump it’s Buchanan/Davis.
3
Conflating civil-war-trolling with Megan McCain's and Erick Erickson's comments about the violence that may occur if there is an attempt to confiscate guns did not help your argument. Attempting to take arms from those who are armed will probably result in arms usage from some folks. That is not a civil war.
3
Now are people beginning to understand why republicans are so big on the misinterpreted second amendment and the NRA ?
The Us against Them Nationalist philosophy will always produce violence, as in Charleston. I'm sure the saner conservatives do not embrace civil conflict, but they do not seem to do anything to bring it to an end either by sitting on their hands.
6
When till the majority of Americans become sufficiently educated to recognize that Trump and his ilk remain in power by stoking fear and hatred? Or, perhaps better said, when will the majority of Americans realize that such actions are dangerous to, maybe destructive of, democracy itself? Absent change, we do need to be afraid, very afraid.
1
Right before Obama’s second election there was a run on bullets and guns. There was much talk here in Florida and on conservative channels he was going to declare martial law and take everyone’s guns. Fast forward, and it remains one of the common myths pushed by the far right fueled by the NRA and their influence in politics. Pushing this agenda has fueled more gun and ammo sales and we all know it’s about money at any cost,
The current civil war talk is being downplayed by Trumps defenders as an hysterical reaction. What is very real are the facts. Hate crimes have risen. Suicide and homicide by guns have risen. Videos of white people screaming at people of color to go back where they came from and so on are becoming more common. Where are people learning to hate and become less tolerant of their differences? Look no further than Trumps twitter feed. Anyone else just might be arrested.
5
I’m a pastor, and I think the “Civil War like fracture in this Nation” happened when he was elected.
5
Great comments on this thread. Should large scale domestic military conflicts be propagated by Trump’s bellicose threats they would have to engage National Guard or US-based Federal forces. Otherwise, we are talking domestic terrorism scaling up from what’s already seen. Keep your eye on whether Trump tries to further hinder the FBI and HS from investigating right wing radicals. That’s the bellwether.
2
It's odd that conservatives—who are by definition resistant to sudden, far reaching change—think that a minor pendulum swing in the political arena, the only kind America ever has, will change the nation into something resembling a zombie movie. They seem to love the drama of it, of casting themselves as victim vigilante warriors unconstrained by written laws, enforcing their moral code on others. It's a nice fantasy (we all like to think we have Solomonic wisdon) but as nutty as things may seem these days, it won't happen in any imaginable future.
2
We have been in a civil war ever since right wing Dixiecrat legislators have thought they had the upper hand. The media has politely called it "obstructionism". More like modern secession. There main goal has always been canceling the Civil Rights laws from the 1960s. Now they have succeeded in even getting a majority on the Supreme Court. They like Trump because he is openly racist.
6
Let’s preempt this by allowing the former states of the Confederacy to secede. Then the rest of us can have universal health insurance, reproductive rights, gun control, progressive taxation, unions, environmental protection and a plan to address climate change.
9
...because he's like an enraged bear trapped in a convenience store who doesn't understand why he's there or how to get out, much less about causing a LOT of damage?
2
Don't minimize the extreme danger posed by those occupying the White House. Should the president be tossed out of office, he and others face certain criminal prosecution in New York. Predictably, his private propaganda network Fox News will disseminate vitriol like this nation has never seen. Imagine Trump declaring a national emergency based on a contrived terrorist plot. Then, suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus. Calling upon spineless justice department heads and compliant generals to join in an effort to "save America." While mainstream citizens may not be familiar with provisions in the Constitution that could be abused, bet the ranch that the firebrands surrounding Trump are well-versed in power-grabbing.
4
Reading this I couldn't help thinking "Be careful what you wish for." Right wing pundits and president Trump might be talking up civil war to fire up their/his base, but with hundreds of millions of guns in civilian hands, including millions of military style assault weapons, things could easily spiral out of control.
There is no legitimate reason for a sitting president to spread such talk. Isn't advocating violence an impeachable offense?
6
This is a worrying article in two ways. First, it shines a light on a disturbing trend on the right. Second, it makes no effort to discuss worrying trends on the left, from antifa to the general demonization of Republicans. It's political analysis driven by the spirit of team sport. It's symptomatic of the Manichean mindset it criticizes.
2
The premise that AR-15s or AK-47s or any other of these noisy pop-guns in the hands of half-trained wanna-be militiamen would be the least bit relevant in a real war is probably the most ridiculous part of these alt-right fantasies. The only thing they would accomplish against troops equipped with heavy weapons and trained use them would be to get their wielders killed sooner rather than later. The only job the rifleman has in modern war is to watch the backs of the guys with the real weapons. Assault rifles on their own simply don't matter when the other side also has has heavy machine guns ... or mortars ... or ... well the list is endless. No. The real reason is that these folks are compensating -- they simply like the intimidation factor which the possession of such toys allow them to exercise against their less well-healed neighbors. This isn't -- and never was -- about any sort of real freedom. It's about ego.
3
If he is given a choice of losing the election/get impeached and starting a civil war, there is no doubt in my mind on what his decision is going to be.
1
Amazing that the author decides to leave the identity of the person who made the initial Civil War comment- Robert Jeffres, a prominent Evangelical (and grifter)
The whole episode is a reminder that Evangelicalism is nothing but a religion of hate and bigotry which pushes Republican ideology first and the Bible a distant second.
It is also a reminder why we should tax religion heavily.
1
This is nothing more than the ravings of a desperate mind.
And it should surprise no one that Donald Trump is doing his best to foment a race war in this country, be it a Civil War or otherwise.
And if that doesn't work to consolidate his base, there's always the chance of him starting an open conflict with any one of several countries he has antagonized in the past.
But whatever fate it is, we'll be on our own.
1
If anyone doesn't believe that Trump would try to foment a violent uprising by his voters, I have some beachfront property in Kansas to sell you. Of course Trump is inciting violence. He knows it works - the El Paso shooter and Cesar Sayoc are prime examples. And this may be the only card Trump has left. It appears increasingly likely that the House will vote to impeach him.
And McConnell is already on record as stating he will allow some sort of "proceeding" thereafter. The result is that Trump becomes cornered, and thus by orders of magnitude more dangerous. He won't be content with just his Twitter outbursts. He'll go back to holding his mega-rallies, and this is where he becomes dangerous.
Trump's threats to journalists, his calls for people to "beat up" those on the left, his clear threat on the whistle blower's life just this past week aren't made from some uncontrollable, crazed urge. When someone as measured and judicious as David Gergen says that Trump will have blood on his hands should harm come to the whistle blower, we all had better start paying serious attention.
Trump is deliberately stoking his base. He need not have the majority of his supporters commit acts of violence - even 5% of them could cause horrific harm to this nation.
We brush off Trump's "Civil War" tweet at our peril. He is sending a clear signal to his base. He is not going quietly, and he wants them to ensure that he doesn't.
5
At what point is Twitter going to be held responsible for giving Trump a megaphone to suggest something as unhinged as another “civil war”? He violates Twitter’s so-called “Terms of Service” on an almost hourly basis, and yet the company refuses to terminate his account. This is not a First Amendment issue; Twitter is a private company and can remove anyone from its platform that it wants, and their refusal to do so with Trump — who is using it to “suggest,” and possibly incite, violence — is the height of irresponsibility.
2
The only winner of the "civil war" will be Vladimir Putin. Is it any wonder how calculating Putin was when he decided to help candidate Trump in the 2016 election? Here is a question for those right-wing conspiracy theorists to amuse themselves with: Do you have anything to prove that Trump is not a Russian agent?
Frame it right. The "irony" curtain is down.
It's been a "cold" civil war since Trump was elected. Impeachment is just heating it up.
I say start firing on Fort Trumpster.
1
I have an alternative idea of why Trump tweeted "Civil War."
For want of a better expression, it the art of the deal.
Earlier today O'Connell said that if the house impeaches him, he's bound to have an impeachment trial in the senate. For an uber-narcissistic, nothing could seem to be worse than enduring the spectacle of an impeachment or the humiliating experience of actually being convicted.
Civil war versus promise of impeachment are both counter proposals by two sides to remind the other side of the leverage that they have.
My guess is that Ukrainegate is no accident. It's just the scandal de jour meeting the right timing. The GOP has their tax cut. Now there is little to gain and much liability to sticking with Trump than hanging on to him.
Big$Money neo-lib & never-trump elite was once satisfied to bank on Biden to remove Trump. Now it's pretty certain that Biden's well past his sell by date. That means either Warren or Sanders is the most likely to get the nomination. Big$Money needs a different horse in the GOP stable - that's not possible with Trump around.
They want to throw Trump under the bus so bad and so fast it would make your head spin. Trump obviously wants to stay, for no other reason than to avoid an orange jump suit. Thus McConnel's comment, thus Trumps counter point regarding civil war. Eventually, Trump is angling for some kind of a way to save political face and immunity from an orange jump suit and a pot of gold.
1
My observation from the perspective of 71 years on the planet: Malefactors often/always accuse their enemies of the very acts/crimes they themselves are committing or planning.
1
He’s an ill man, unsuited for any public office, who, if he felt like it, would not hesitate to yell “ fire” in a theatre and watch chaos ensue.
He needs to go. Such recklessness has gone beyond unbearable- it’s dangerous.
3
Trump is trying to stoke more fear in his base. I feel sorry that his base does not think for themselves, that they need a Trump to tell them how to think and how to act. What an awful way to live. And all the while Trump is striking fear in their hearts, he is picking their pockets.
2
Violence is the last resort of the feeble minded. Republicans know that they are outnumbered. They know that they can't win elections without voter suppression and gerrymandering. And they also know that through both demographic change and the rise of a new generation the tide is turning against them. But they get their sense of self worth from carrying guns and brandishing them in public. The only reason any one would do such a thing is to create intimidation and mask their insecurities. This is not the first time Trump has made the threat that his followers will turn violent if he is impeached. First of all I doubt that they actually have the guts to do so. But if they do so be it. They will be dealt with swiftly We are a country of laws, and every once in a while it serves the public interest to resoundingly show that no one is above the law.
2
The use of the threat of violence by the right wing media is disgusting and more sinister than I ever imagined. Infowars, Fox News, the Drudge Report have used Civil War imagery to heighten divisions between the left and right in our country and to exploit these divisions for political purposes.
Trump has gladly adopted this to feed his deep state conspiracies, to heighten fear, to awaken the possibility of violence in his supporters, and to imply that he is a victim of a left wing conspiracy that is out to destroy him. This vision of an apocalypse would make it impossible to have a democracy in which reason, moderation and at times compromise can create good policies, pragmatic legislation, and by these means unify our nation.
Trump’s Civil War language is an abnegation of Presidential leadership and another illustration of how low he would sink to hold on to power.
It is demented, dangerous, and an incentive to violence. It reflects a mind that is increasingly unhinged. It needs to be repudiated by Republican leadership immediately and suggests to me that Trump needs to have an urgent Psychiatric evaluation and likely be compelled to resign for moral and emotional unfitness. This type of extremist demagoguery is not acceptable in any President who is supposed to represent all the people and to unify the country. It needs to stop forthwith.
1
A member of my family has been listening to right wingers for several decades. As far back as the 1970's, he told me that there was going to be a race war soon. I told him no there isn't. And there wasn't. No more to fear now than then. Those who like trump (god knows why) would be angry if he were removed, but most of them wouldn't want to kill me because I was so happy he was gone.
1
Wasn't it Cliven Bundy and his little band of "warriors" who got bored and started texting out for people to bring them snacks and pizza? The average Trump rally-goer must be around 50 or 60, tooling around in an RV with a TV and video games. I really don't see these folks getting organized, digging in, and making the sacrifices an armed insurrection would demand.
It's the schocastic (sp?) terrorism that's already happening, where lone individuals get radicalized and erupt into anti-social acts of violence, that is more likely to increase, and that's bad enough--for the cohesiveness of society and for the peace of mind of each individual. Trump ought to be ashamed of himself, but if he had the ability to feel shame, we wouldn't be in this mess.
2
Americans with jobs, families, mortgages, rent or car payments will not take up arms to protect an autocrat like Trump. It is Trumpian fantasy to think the military or the gun lobby will save the President from the consequences of his own corruption.
4
Anyone who thinks there won't be violence if Trump is convicted in the Senate or loses in 2020 is, unfortunately, naive. Trump will not go peacefully. To paraphrase Krugman, if you think otherwise, you haven't been paying attention.
1
Civil War--Never. However, a house divided will not stand. Time for us ALL to start unifying as Americans.
1
@Hello
When was the last family holiday gathering you attended where everyone at the table was unified? Now multiply that by a few hundred million.
@Rea Tarr
When we bowed our heads and gave thanks for all of our blessings. It is easier than you think.
You can call it what you want, Mr. Warzel. And a “civil war” doesn’t necessarily mean violence.
We’ve never removed a president. To do so in a completely one-sided process, based on the weak evidence to date, will have untold consequences. To think that Trump’s tens of millions of supporters will just move on is naive.
@KJ McNichols
If the Trump supporters don't move on, what then? Stand in the middle if the road? March on Washington? Barricade their communities? Go somewhere else? Should we be concerned?
It’s worse than naive to wallow in trump’s crimes and racism while sneeringly daring anyone to do anything about it. You invite the trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored. The truth goes marching on
everyone should know by now that Trump reveals his own dark actions/ideas through his accusations. so, if he's accusing the left of fomenting civil war, then you can be assured he is considering it himself.
6
It’s interesting that the pundits, conspiracy-theorists, and now politicians speak of Civil war as a solution, rather than a reaction. Solution for what, I ask? Against the people of color who are citizens? Against “liberals” who have no identifiable markers and live in no singular spot?
it’s as if these folks don’t understand the message they are sending: we have the presidency, the senate and the Supreme Court. And we’re still angry enough to kill. What do they want?
4
Dear Charlie,
Thanks for the background info and good insights. But I fear you are naive.
During the 19th century American Civil War, brother fought brother. And while slavery was at the core of the rationale, it really was about economics and the hatred of domination by Yankees.
The North "won" that war and then left the battle field to the South to reclaim. And they certainly did. Ask the descendants of those who were promised "40 acres and mule" and got a lynching instead.
Our approach around the world has been similar. Shock and awe followed by impatience with what it takes to really change a culture and rebuild an inclusive government. It takes decades if not centuries.
We are living in the ashes of a war we started but did not finish. The sick evil attitudes about race and simple human fairness and dignity were allowed to thrive. They should have squelched.
Instead of looking for ways to undermine "libs", the entire Justice apparatus should be seeking out the real terrorists - which are actually fighting the "civil war" as we speak. For now, it is a cold war with occasional sparks and flames - El Paso and Dayton come to mind.
And keep this in mind. The human beings in Rwanda were no different than us - except we have more money and more toys and more weapons. Is Trump any more trustworthy than the leaders who called for genocide?
Charlie, the war has been going on for a long, long time. How nasty can it get? That is up to the Republicans.
3
All revolutions devour their own children. Just as many more centrist Republicans are now reaping what they've sown in fueling the culture wars, people who are making money off this have to fear that at one point the mob is going to come after them.
2
I have noticed some indicators of threatened unrest if Trump is impeached.
I expect that the appropriate authorities are drawing up plans to deal with any outbursts from right wing fanatics.
All arms and ammunition sales should be curtailed of course at the first sign of bloodshed.
(Yes this should have been done years ago.)
Any law enforcement professionals and military leaders who demonstrate a divided loyalty to rule of law and right wing fanaticism should be removed from operational decision making immediately.
People who preach violence should be unceremoniously jailed for the duration of any unrest and then dealt with through the legal system.
This is not a time to be caught unawares,
there have been plenty of threats from the gun owning fanatics and they can be sorted out from legitimate gun owners at a later date.
Am I a "gun grabber"?
If the lives of my family depend on it you bet I am.
4
There could well be some sporadic violence if Trump is impeached. But, against whom? Therein lies the problem with the Civil War theory. It’s assumed that violence would come from the right but no large number of such folks are going to attack the police or the military. It’s simply contrary to their ideology. And their natures. Now, if the left, the antifas, were to mount some violent actions, there could be retaliatory attacks.
This all seems to be sci-fi so....
1
@Tim Dowd
I wouldn't fear some kind of formal civil war, such as seen in 1864. What I would fear is an untold number of unorganized but well armed right-wing nutjobs taking to the streets to "express" their anger and revenge against what they see as liberals, elites, deep state (universities, government buildings, mosques, immigrant communities). A small number of nutjobs can wreak a large amount of civil mayhem, if not war.
@Tim Dowd "It's simply contrary to their ideology." Yeah, the Bundys, Ruby Ridge, Tim McVey, Waco, separatist militias--those are all left-wing chimeras; never happened.
@Tim Dowd
When Trump is impeached, the left -- and even the antifas -- will run into the streets laughing.
When Trump declared his candidacy at Trump Tower in 2015, he told his partially-paid audience (actors who were paid $50) that he could get away with murder. With the "My daughter is hot! But I can't marry her" comment, he broadly hinted at an ongoing incestuous relationship with his eldest daughter and, indeed, cast some question as to their true paternity.
Nobody in their right mind would think such behavior was appropriate.
8
These fruit cakes have always been there (see Hofstadter) and are not going away (particularly since there is money in it). Trump's and his allies adoption of their rhetoric is however, basically counter productive because it puts them well and truly in the fruit cake department with most Americans.
3
What students of American history, not just military history, need to keep in mind is that the "Civil War-like fracture" (to give it its proper punctuation) didn't just last from 1861 to 1865. The raid on Harper's Ferry, the hanging of John Brown, the night riding of the Klan and the sabotaging of Reconstruction in the South were all testaments to the fracture even though a state of war did not technically exist.
Trump can be impeached today (too much to hope for, I know) but the people intent on perpetuating the state of fracture aren't going away any time soon. This is where the next "Civil War" is being fought: one heart and mind at a time.
7
The story behind the story is the successful division of the middle and lower economic classes in order to ensure the continued dominance of the billionaires and millionaire wannabes. I’m looking for a candidate who can talk across the ever growing divide, about the divide and who stands to profit from it. Allowing ourselves to become a radicalized Left to fight fire with fire deepens the divide. I want a candidate who can think about the nation after the election when, if Liberals carry the day we may not face a civil war but we certainly will see increasing numbers of mass shootings.
5
A pastor no less trolls Civil War; over 300 million guns; zealots sprinkled among the masses; an idolized former President who advocated for the "common man" but was impeached for assuming powers not conferred by the Constitution; a fractured two party political system; etc. etc. Stranger historical events have occurred.
4
If the assertion is that because something hasn't happened when it was previously predicted can we stop with the climate change nonsense? I keep an article on my computer that George Will wrote in the 1970s, about the coming Ice age. I was in college and law school when it was changed to global warming. And when I was getting my M.B.A. we were at climate change. Neither New York or Miami is under the sea. Abortion is still legal in all 50 states.
2
@Matthew Changes in language over several years happens for a reason. We have update our use of as we gain greater understanding of the climate situation is. Abortion is only legal due to Herculean efforts and
hundreds of millions spent. As far as New York being under water we have gone from Hurricane Gloria in 1985 to Sandy in 2012. Snark does little to assist in blurring the facts.
3
George Will commenting on about an impending ice age? He was (and is) about as qualified to comment on climate as I am to comment on the latest nuclear physics. The "an ice age is coming" trope was based on sensationalist articles by people who mis-interpreted scientific papers.
The Earth was cooling at that time by the way, due to sulfate pollution from the burning of coal and other high sulfur fuels, which masked warming due to increasing CO2.
Most academic papers in the field of climate science from that period were already about global warming, based on the meager data at that time and earlier.
A report to President Johnson in 1965 warned about global warming by century's end if nothing was done to curb CO2.
How does that fit into your world view?
It's easy to argue when you don't know what you are talking about.
1
@Matthew
Look again at Miami, starting with the Biscayne Bay and South Beach areas. They're not under the sea yet, buuuut....
https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/05/miami-fl-portes-global-edge-book-interview-climate-chang/588460/
"The fact of the matter is that the ocean is rising. That's undeniable, that's a done deal. And, the process is surprisingly fast paced: the anticipations of things that were supposed to happen in 2050 are now expected to become reality by 2025.
Two things that have happened recently: The city of Miami passed a $400 million-dollar “Miami Forever” bond to find ways to defend the city against flooding and sea level rise. They’ve also brought in experts from the Netherlands, the best-known example of how to cope with sea level rise and how to live near water. And those experts pronounced Miami a very dangerous place because it is difficult to build seawalls when your subsoil is limestone. The expected timeline of serious things to happen in this area is 50 to 100 years."
And foolish people spend millions on new developments by the water there, just as people keep rebuilding along the Atlantic coast year after devastating hurricane year.
The evidence is right under your nose if only you'll look at it.
1
"Fear wins. We all lose." The final two sentences say everything we need to remember about the topic of civl war that Trump wants and more importantly, his supporters relish. Perhaps if his supporters actually see what gunshot wounds do to a human body they will stop the rhetoric about armed conflict. Firearms are made to kill.
16
I have often, on this online platform, suggested that the time has come to "dissolve our political bands' with one another, because our disagreements are too deep to resolve peaceably. But recently, I've begun to think about my wonderful son who is a National Park Ranger. What would happen our extraordinary National Park system if we were to separate into two entities, Red and Blue? What would happen to his chosen career? Then, I began to broaden my concerns: which side would get the inspiring Lincoln Memorial? The profoundly moving Vietnam Wall? The Jefferson Memorial? The Grand Canyon and Zion, Sequoia, Yosemite? We are so much more spiritually, and I do NOT mean religiously, deeply connected to one another as AMERICANS. Can the Republicans and conservatives not find it in their hearts to nominate someone else in 2020? I myself would not vote for a Haley/Romney ticket, and I would be opposed to their most of policies. However, if elected and if they could restore a sense of unity to our nation, abide by the rule of law, respect our sacred institutions and cherished traditions, work respectfully with the global community and behave as we demand a presidential team conduct themselves, I would support them and retire my Resistance membership.
13
@AKL and now ask yourself if you can forego voting for any Democrat. Millions of us find every national Democrat more offensive and contrary to our founding principles than the current president.
@Matthew Sorry, Matthew, but no. I totally support all of the Democratic candidates and will vote blue no matter who. Trump is the most offensive, toxic, divisive, coarse, openly racist, xenophobic, misogynistic person to have ever darkened the doorstep of the White House. I will NEVER support him and his cruel, depraved regime. However, should a reasonable, intelligent, experienced, compassionate conservative willing to embrace ALL of us (not just his base), e.g. Mitt Romney, become president, I will support the office of the presidency of the United States and the person in it. I respect anyone's right to vote for Donald Trump, but I do not respect them or, minimally, their voting acumen. Have a great day, Matthew!
@Matthew
Ah, the old "millions" who think like you argument. Strong, it isn't.
The columnist is too flip. Spend enough time in rural or downmarket suburban areas, where the young men without college drive those lifted trucks plastered with hate-mongering stickers and Punisher skull logos.
Civil war there seems a little closer than it might from NYC.
We better hope this is posturing, and that the hip urban college kids and soft, suburban majority do not want their cul-de-sacs and micro-breweries in ruins. We best start by ridding the nation of Trumpism, but it will take more than being rid of him.
Civil war would likely start with a cycle of tit-for-tat violence, as in Bloody Kansas of the 1850s. I feel hopeful that we will ride this era of rage out, until that begins. But not dismissive, as this column appears to be. Just vigilant.
21
So are the people calling for this civil war ready to sacrifice their sons and daughters to their cause? Are they really ready to see their neighbors shot in the streets? To live without the internet, electricity, food and water? The people pushing this kind of action are hiding behind keyboards and cameras...fomenting the base and making money off of fear.
25
@Darby Stevens
I would argue they are already sacrificing their sons and daughters. When we raise children in a home that promotes the kind of hate, intolerance, and violence this "civil war" talk is spewing, it's tantamount to child abuse. Look at the young people who are shooting up schools and churches. We are in deep trouble.
1
Here in New Hampshire the declaration of civil war would be a weekend event for sometime after the Super Bowl that would amount to a monster truck rally where camo covered warriors would be swapping stories of awesome gun acquisitions and ATVs while waiting for a car with a Bernie Sanders bumper sticker to drive by as justifiable provocation. Favorite craft beers will be discussed as well.
8
The corporations helped unleash the maelstrom of Trump, all for the sake of tax cuts and deregulation (i.e. freedom to pollute). I bet they're shaking in their toxic boots by now.
Key to the on-going march of ever higher earnings per share is a serene overall economy, driven much by the Trump voter - the ideal sleep-walking spender/non-saver.
But if Twitter strife were replaced by actual violence, it all comes crashing down. Civil War is not particularly good for consumer confidence.
27
Finally, the toothpaste is out of the tube regarding use of the Overton Window, which describes lowering the levels or degrees of acceptable political discourse from totally unacceptable to totally acceptable. That's where we've been headed for quite a while, where we are today and how difficult and how long if ever,the road back to 'normalcy' will be.
Vote.
19
@Guido Malsh
Indeed, we brought this on ourselves by not voting for sanity.
The insanity described in this column is real.
We have become 100% political in who and what we support, that is, if the candidate does not agree with my views 100% I will not support him/her.
Candidates as people are flawed. HRC was flawed but do you really think that we would be going through this mess if she was President...Gridlock yes, insanity no.
2
It is quite telling that when Conservatives think they might not get what they want that they threaten to harm themselves and others.
51
@Covert
The Non-White population of our country has outnumbered that of the White, putting fear in the hearts of white conservatives
We need to accept and move forward in a peaceful way
I'm speechless that this article didn't address the moves Republicans have made that are actually in the direction of civil war. Secession, recall, was a political not a military act, and McConnell's refusal to seat a new supreme court justice was an equally unconstitutional violation. Only dems haven't the imagination to recognize what they're facing: Secession by Another Name. The Trump presidency should be conceived as if Jefferson Davis won the White House.
34
@Robert
Indeed...the party are not street fighters...they think the law will bring them the victories they need...but Trump and McConnell just closed that door.
When the French think something is very wrong they go tot the streets...maybe , we should try that.
2
Worth saying again. Don’t take a knife to a gun fight. Or Pelosi / Schumer to a revolution.
It was bracing enough when Donald Trump recklessly threatened war with North Korea and Iran, among others. His espousal of civil war in the United States of America, however, is beyond the pale.
It would once have been shocking for any American president to overtly suggest it, but given Donald Trump's long history of incendiary rhetoric, we have come to a point where it is no longer so. What's worse is that many have become numb and inured to it. We have left the slippery slope and are now careening uncontrollably down a boulder-strewn and crevasse-riddled hill.
With the GOP continuing to support a president who openly suggests civil war, we are entering new territory. The party's sheer recklessness in allowing it to continue is beyond words.
We are saddled with a president who favors automatic weapons in the hands of average Americans, equates bigots with patriots, encourages violence, and suggests that he may not leave office when his term is up. Now he is suggesting civil war.
Franklin D. Roosevelt famously stated that "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." He may have been right, then, but in today's political environment, we also have to fear Donald Trump, Twitter, the GOP, and the forces they have unleashed.
This is what America under Trump has become. One nation, divisible, with liberty and justice for only a select few. Are you paying attention yet?
54
I was fascinated to see that Mr. King felt that another Harper's Ferry was near at hand. Aside from being poorly thought out and suicidal, I cannot see how a raid on a government armory by a group of abolitionists can be used as a rallying cry for the alt-right.
9
@Chris Clark Harpers Ferry was the Pearl Harbor or 9/11 for southerners in 1859-1861. Southerners lived in fear of their own slaves and this was terrifying to them; white northerners attempted to arm enslaved people and lead them in an armed insurrection. The fire-eaters used Harpers Ferry to build on that fear.
4
@Chris Clark The war promised by the Right will not be much of a war in practice. If the threat was real, we'd see thousands of right-wing "militias" trooping around the Federal parks, drilling and such.
Their war is actually a fantasy, a scene played out in their heads when they play with their guns.
No, their war would look like this: a few whack-jobs taking pot-shots at police and dying in place.
@cornbread17 And in retrospect, isn't it awesome that southern slave owners got to spend a little bit of time being terrified? Slave owners - by definition - were terrorists, compared to the scale of horror they wrought upon the humans they owned as chattel, their discomfort around insurrection is piffle, trivial, a 'nothing burger', as all the southern cads like to say these days.
If we're going to discuss the civil war, we should talk about it for what it was, unforgivable.
1
Trump has already polarized the USA and alienated so many groups within the country that any reckless rhetoric about civil disorders is quite plausible. Trump would stop at nothing to remain on his throne and has already made the credible threat of remaining in the White House past January 2021 regardless of the fearful--to him--outcome of the 2020 election.
26
@Tournachonadar It is all because of the lack of education in the USA . American public education is so poor that it produces this mystical behaviorist culture.
@JPH precisely what I have heard in France for many decades, pronounced by aristos who sneer at everyone else. USA would rather fund a yuuge war machine than take care of its people's needs and address their well-beiong.
1
@Tournachonadar I thought you said it was a communist idea .
Very few aristos are communists in France . There are some but those don't really sneer at everyone else.
It is a long time in France that aristos have no power. We cut their heads off, you forgot ?
And the behaviorist culture in the USA, if you know what it means, does not have anything to do with the French aristocrats. it is British . And the aristos in Great Britain , them , have all the money and power and they are those who sneer at everybody else. And like in the USA the British have no good education, no good Health care, and no good culture for the poor.
Seems the media needs to take some responsibility for the polarization.
Mass media is also a business at the end of the day. News conglomerates have become problematically competitive and focus on being the first to publish a story rather than the accuracy or depth of its information. Meanwhile, negative and extremist political language is utilized for attention-getting purposes to maintain profitable ratings. As long as the industry remains profitable, it is likely that polarized perspectives will remain dominant.
7
Aren’t we already in a civil war? The country is so polarized and agents of evil are committing mass shootings in the name of political and social objectives pushed by a feckless and illegitimate regime sitting in the White House; our government is gutting basic protections that benefit all but more so minorities and women; our foreign policy is purely zero-sum based at this point and instead of congressional coalitions built to achieve betterment of American society we see purely binary partisan-based GOP led decision-making that advances a specific agenda of holding on to power at all costs.
19
Just one more example of Trump projecting. We are much more likely to have a civil war if he is not removed from office, either by impeachment or next year's election.
29
I don't think the Civil War ended in 1865, I think it just became a cold war that is still going on.
At the core of it is racism vs. tolerance, right vs. left, rural vs. urban, etc.
The two main groups in this country just don't want to get along, and maybe they should be two separate countries. No idea how to draw those lines, though...Every state, county, and city has a mix of both sides these days.
23
@Matt I'm still hoping we can figure out how to live together as one country. The folks I love would sort themselves into different countries, and I wouldn't know where to sort myself as a pacifist Christian interfaith-enthusiastic pro-immigrant teetotaler farmer...
I am also not altogether sure that tolerant v. intolerant maps neatly onto right v. left or rural v. urban. I have certainly observed some troubling displays of racism among my rural and pro-Trump neighbors. Also, however, from liberal professional city-dwellers (and no, I am not talking about the bogeyman of "reverse racism"). And I have not noticed that tolerance for the political Other being prevalent--or totally absent--on either side.
6
@Matt 'USA 2.0' would have 29 states (plus Washington D.C.), a population of 196 million and GDP of $13.4 trillion ($68K per capita). It would contain the entire West coast, include both Alaska and Hawaii, upper East coast, and northern contiguous states from coast-to-coast. It would have 17 "blue" states (plus Washington D.C.), seven "red" states and six "purple" states. Thus, politically it would have a "blue" Senate and a bright "blue" House.
1. [12+D.C.]The free (non-slave) states in the Union at the start of the Civil War (1861): New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Ohio, Massachusetts, Connecticut, R.I., Maine, Vermont, N.H., Michigan plus Washington D.C..
2. [3] Select Civil War "border" states (i.e., states which didn'that secede but allowed slavery) that clearly would have abolished slavery via correct political pressure: Maryland, Delaware and Missouri.
3. [7]States joining union freely as "free states" (and clearly would prohibit slavery by political persuasion): California, Oregon, Nevada, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Kansas, Iowa.
4. [7] Other selected states joining union after Civil War (under condition of slavery prohibition): Nebraska, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Washington, Hawaii & Alaska.
Maybe the west coast and northern part of the east coast can join with Canada. Let the Midwest and southern states have their guns, god and antipathy. The economic engines of the coastal states could easily provide quality government healthcare to their citizenry. We could stop sending funds to red states that don’t seem to want a federal government and only see government as the problem. We could rebuild our place as a leader of the free world and spread goodwill once again. Maybe a geographic split is the solution. I will never understand or feel allied with people who can tolerate or vote for someone of Trump’s character.
Why do we have to be the “United States” if we are not?
60
@RST
The problem with that kind of split is that the coasts would be stranding millions of left wing types in the midwest and south. For example, I live in New Mexico...A pretty strongly blue state. The two coasts better be able and willing to take in refugees...
34
@RST. Not really doable that way either. I think it's 2/3 of the states that have to vote to dissolve the union, or the union stands. With most of the red states unable to support themselves and having to rely on the distribution of money from taxes on the blue states, and since they currently call the tune, the red states will never vote to dissolve the union. It would be suicide.
10
@Brookhawk
But at some point, the blue-state subsidized red-state dominated union will seem far too much like taxation without representation, especially if candidates who lose the popular vote continue to take the White House. We know where that led.
9
I find it interesting that 45, “the anti-war president”, keeps floating the notion of a Civil War should he be forced out of power. As if forcing our military personnel to fight abroad is a terrible idea, but the death and misery of millions of Americans to save his skin at home is totally fine.
85
I didn't expect shooting to break out, but I think we are already in a civil war. It's not a new one. It's the fourth, and hopefully final phase of the one that started in 1860. As I see it, Phase 1 lasted till the end of Reconstruction in 1876. Phase 2 was the Jim Crow era. The civil rights movement was Phase 3. I hope the current phase is the last gasp of the old, white, male order and that it will end by the time the US becomes majority minority around 2047.
67
@Bill Thank You! What an interesting “long view” of this country’s evolution!
2
Pastors and politics? Remove their tax status, and make them pay taxes same as any other business.
198
@pointofdiscovery I made this comment before but whe I was in my twenties a long long time ago I was told that if the Catholic Church was taxed solely on the property it owns in the us we would not have a national debt.
I don't know.
In all honesty, at a distance and politically, I loath Evangelicals. Speaking across the internet, I would be more than happy if they took their south and went their own way. I wouldn't want a civil war of course, but I would be more than happy with a dissolution of the Union.
Of course, these feeling breaks down outside of politics. I have family who are Evangelical and as long as we specifically don't talk about Religion or Politics I get along with them fine.
24
@Dundeemundee Plus there’s that pesky fact that populations of evangelicals live throughout the US and that there are many “blue dots” of progressivism in the South. I personally hope progressives will quit giving in to their own inclinations to stereotype (seems like sweeping generalizations about the South generally go unexamined) and will instead put their energy toward helping us blue-dotters make our states purple.
5
@Dundeemundee
Because *hiding from a problem is a masterful way of *solving a problem ?
@Dundeemundee It's amazing how people outside the south stereotype the region as nothing but guns and religion. I've never been south of DC, but it seems a little extreme.
1
Of course Trumps tweets and threats are all bluster and merely used as a continual distraction from any serious analysis of the effect of his policies. Of course, but he also built his empire with Roy Cohn as his mentor, and Roy Cohn was the lawyer for all six of the mob families of the New York area. When the mob Don's talked it was never bluster and things happened. So Trump always has two levels to his public communications: one for his impressionable base, and one for his crew who take care of problems for him. So one of the things that Trump has recently started signaling is that he would like someone to care of things like this whistle blower. He can claim that he knew nothing and that he was not directly involved and that is enough for politics. And his henchmen know that they will get no protection if they are caught. So don't get caught. But those suggestive orders have been given several times now and somewhere in the swamp idle minds are thinking and taking care to protect their gravy train. Something may never happen, and then again, it might. That's one of the reasons that most public speakers try to be responsible when they talk to the whole nation. But we are not in new territory here, we are in very old territory and we are trying to ignore the situation in front of our eyes. But that will not make it go away.
26
@Bobotheclown-Chilling. Clear-eyed assessment. And incredibly sad.
1
Did it justify a whole column to explain 'why trump tweeted about civil war'? I mean, shouldn't it be obvious to almost everybody .. except maybe the most obtuse of trump's loyal base .. that he was once again invoking the threat of violence against anyone or any group that would usurp his divine right to govern?
He has already threatened the whistleblower with the ultimate penalty. He also demanded that Adam Schiff be charged with treason .. perhaps in the hope he could be dispatched alongside the whistleblower in the midst of the next July 4th, $5 million salute to trump extravaganza.
Trump's infatuation with Putin, Kim and Salman has convinced him he should be able to silence his critics and political opponents using their standard techniques. And mind you, it's not as though he doesn't have some like minded supporters in his own cabinet - people like Pompeo who sees America as more a monarchy than a republic.
62
The fix was in from the start.
I carefully observed candidate Don Trump on a nationally televised daytime rally in which he stated to the camera; "There might be trouble if I'm not elected".
Everyone should be brainstorming who his accomplices are even before then.
I will add that Trump's people negotiated with a Ukrainian mayor of a city near the Russian border to build a Trump Tower in Moscow before the election. What was their motive or intended use of the Hotel or residences?
20
To believe that Trump and his minions won't go to war is a failure of imagination. I take the arming of America and the constant race baiting of right wing media as indicative of desire for war.
When you see Republicans 'question' the opposition in the chambers of congress they treat them as hostile witnesses. They are playing for the base.
The mighty tax cut, the denial to provide affordable healthcare to all Americans, gerrymandering and voting restrictions are all efforts, some successful, some not, at refusing to empower all Americans as full-fledged citizens.
On top of all of that, throw in a man who will not leave office gently, quietly, but is bent on wreaking havoc on America first. Trump will only be so glad to douse America in gas and then light the match.
39
Trump was already planning before the impeachment move to cast doubt on legitimacy of the 2020 election before he even has a chance to lose it - he's putting himself in a no-lose situation. If he does lose the election he'll declare it null and void and remain in power, backed by his poorly regulated militia. Civil war it will become, unless there is a way to get him out the backdoor ie. make a deal for total immunity while President and after he's gone for him and his family and his business.
12
@Maxy If Trump loses in 2020 and doesn't give up power, it will be up to the Secret Service to physically remove him from the White House, and the military to put down any subsequent civilian rebellions. If Trump and his mindless followers don't like it, they're all welcome to move to Russia and see what it's like living under a true dictatorship. (Trump will probably flee to Russia anyway to escape jail when the Southern District of New York goes after him)
His statement is impeachable in itself. There's really nothing more to it. But to those, including Trump, who advocate for another Civil War - remember who won the last one.
38
@Shane Yeah, it was technically the Republicans but they were the good guys then.
So yes, the good guys will win again.
3
@RamS It was Progressives who won and the Conservatives (who wanted to maintain the status-quo) who lost.
15
@Shane The Republicans lead by the president beat the Democrats in the last war. Are you suggesting Trump is another Lincoln?
Consider the totally peaceful division of Czechoslovakia as a model. Irreconcilable ideological and economic differences divide the largely civilised US West and East Coasts from the reactionary heartlands. At +300 million inhabitants, the American experiment has grown too large and unwieldly to govern efficiently and fairly.
But don't repeat Great Britain's mistake with the Brexit referendum. There is no reason to rush America's salutary division, it should be the object of debate and meticulous planning.
12
@AE
How many in favor of Blexit - exit of blue states or Rexit of red states? Or maybe a Sexit of the South?
I’m mainly in favor of a Trumpexit.
2
@AE And what grounds will be used to grab\give land? Democrats control the megacities, Republicans the rural areas. Even Far Left states like California lean Red in more rural parts while Deep Red states like Texas are Blue in cities like Houston. A split along purely state lines would see millions of Americans fleeing their homes - 40% of conservative Californians already want to escape. And how will resources be divided? Water supplying the coasts goes through the midlands. Likewise the power - coal, oil electricity, used in America comes from the midlands. Even food is largely provided by midland states and conservative regions in Democrat states. If the radical fringe want to survive they need to play nice with 'Trumpland,' and there's no indication they realise that. Or do they simply figure they can put jackboots on necks if it comes to that? Of course there won't be one fringe nation there'll be two - just as Bangladesh broke away from Pakistan so too will the West and East Coasts each go their own way should they be treated as a single nation, with California almost certainly becoming a Chinese client state.
1
@AE
At 300M inhabitans and 400M guns, it may get a bit dicey.
Civil war seems outlandish and extreme - but do not let the lessons of Ruwanda go unlearned. Media can be a factor in fueling violence.
https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/20100423-atrauss-rtlm-radio-hate.pdf
With right wing media and internet channels pumping out a constant stream of fear, paranoia, and anger in the U.S., it could become a self-fulfilling prophecy - especially since we know foreign actors are involved in efforts to disrupt the country and make it ungovernable. And, as is noted here, it's a lucrative line of work for the shameless.
Whether or not there would be a descent into civil war and what it would look like is a question - since the geographic lines are not as neatly drawn as they were in prior to 1860. It's not a question of slave versus free states this time. That doesn't rule out a stochastic civil war of random incidents, bombings, etc.
The prospect of civil war is being raised by those who would make the price of being held accountable too high. If it did come to actual conflict, well that's the price they're willing to impose. What we do know is that the temptation to sweep Trump and the GOP's bad behavior under the rug, and look forward, not back, has not served us well.
It's time to call their bluff. Let them really fear being held accountable. It's time.
17
@Larry Roth What of the propaganda pumped out by the left-wing media? They are constantly pumping out stories giving conservatives cause to fear that regressives are coming for them. When will it become a self fulfilling policy?
Mr. Roth, though I have tried to put it out of my mind, the similarities of what led up to the Rwandan Genocide is strikingly similar to the current US culture war climate. Church leaders in Rwanda also fed aberrant impulses for parishioners to kill in righteous anger. Evangelical church leaders in America have more power than the press. I hope we are both wrong but I expect more skirmishes like the one in Virginia, many more.
2
@John Smythe Your reference to left-wing media is a tell. There is nothing on the left that compares to FOX, Sinclair Broadcasting, or talk radio. Nothing like the constant stream of fear-mongering and outright lies. Even FOX is at war with itself, the credibility gap has gotten so large.
If conservatives have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to worry about.
No wonder they're freaking out.
I certainly wouldn't want a 'war' of any sort fought here in America. I've been to war and only those that have never experienced war are foolish enough to even speak of it.
At the same time I can see a lot of positives into splitting the country into Red and Blue States.
It is an ideal solution. The Red states could live in their 18th century theocracy free of all that pesky 'science' stuff and the Blue States could live in the modern world.
The Blue States would no longer have to send Billions of dollars a year to Red States who don't (supposedly) agree with government help anyway.
The Blue States would continue to accept black, brown and asian refugees fleeing the already present discrimination and persecution from the Red States on humanitarian grounds.
I see a win/win and can not think of a downside.
73
@JMC, the problem is that red and blue states are a myth created by the winner take all system most states use to allocate electoral college votes. All states are shades of purple, and that's not even considering third parties, independents, and people that don't vote.
31
@Leonard Whew, finally a voice of reason in all this “let’s divide the country” talk. Thank you. I’m really disappointed in my fellow progressives who don’t realize that they also often succumb to the same degree of hateful stereotyping as the alt-right, they just target different groups.
3
@JMC
I thought that for a long while, too. But I am slowly changing my mind, especially when I see things like the mass exodus of GOP congressmen from Texas. Obviously they see change coming. I just hope more people in more states come to realize the GOP is a party of cowards and liars and abandon it. I don't even care if they vote democrat. Just don't vote for the party that is set on destroying America, one way or the other. They are the party of income inequality, oppression of women, destruction of the environment, gun violence, and cowardice. They all need to go. Trump is only a symptom.
1
The second American Civil War occurred in the 1960’s with the Vietnam War at the center of it. Add to that the assassinations of politicians and religious leaders and the burning down of the inner cities. 147 cities and towns experienced that with riots and protest and nearly every American saw that happen on almost a daily bases. What were seeing today is nothing compared to what we went through then. It would be pretty hard for people to actually step up and defend or attack and die for our institutions based on one man who obviously is one of the most corrupt politicians of our times.
22
Charlie. Thank you for a great analysis.
It is interesting to see how people perceive a subject and react.
Just takes one person to take the lead.
7
The reason these guys keep talking about a second civil war and are so eager to believe the most flimsy rumours of it is that deep down, they want one. I know people like this and they are thrilled with martial violence, but more importantly they think it is the last chance they have to stave off the impending defeat of their politics.
49
@Thollian those that want a civil war see themselves as the "winners" and they and theirs will emerge unscathed by the chaos and destruction. sadly, there will be enough horror to go around.
4
@Thollian Ironically the only ones seeming to want violence are the Far Left - Antifa and other domestic terrorists. The Right see this and fear violence is inescapable, and the Left keeps reinforcing their fear.
@John Smythe I’ve met a fair number of lefty student radicals in my time too. None of them were into guns.
Interesting that the idea of a "civil war" has come to the surface. I've thought for a while that our current politics somehow reflects a reenactment of that conflict, almost as if those issues were still alive, still on the table and active, as if nothing was settled in 1865. Here we go again?
16
@ Antoine
Because nothing was really settled in 1865. The aim of Reconstruction was to reach a long term solution, but that was sold out in 1876, along with the soul of the Republican Party. Racism, segregation, and slavery-lite (share cropping) were the order of the day in both the North and South. And here we are.
I don’t anticipate another Civil War; I cannot imagine it ending well. Perhaps if we avoid it for a long enough time, our descendants may be able to reconstruct a just society and ameliorate climate change.
12
Antione - it wasn’t settled because the compromise VP candidate Johnson (added to Lincoln’s ticket for compromise electability purposes) did his very best to blunt the reforms of the reconstruction era. His policies shielded the formation of Jim Crow system and allowed for the unfettered birth of organizations that enforced it - be that the KKK through the use of force and terror or the Daughters of the Confederacy who worked tirelessly to ensure a false narrative of confederate righteousness was taught in schools for over a hundred years.
No need for a war. We can be more creative than that. I can list two alternatives to a civil war off the top of my head
1) Shrink the federal government to just the bare minimum. Divvy up the social programs to the states. Let the states do what they want. Border between states will have to harden
2) Partition the country. Blue coasts, red interiors, with an easement between the two coasts. Give people a 5 year transition period to relocate to their desired side.
17
@William Fang You go first and
Move to Kansas where they can teach you about their recent small government experiment. Renounce your social security and Medicare benefits, keep paying your taxes though. The tree of liberty must be watered by the blood of patriots. But good government just wants you to pay your taxes.
@William Fang So much for the "United" States. What's the difference?
Heck, 3 countries. California, Oregon, Washington and Hawaii would rather just go it alone. We’ll call it Paradise.
1
It’s no surprise to me that an evangelical pastor was the latest to suggest a civil war. Many of the conservative churches in the south have their origin in a split of opinion over slavery that occurred around the last civil war. Many of the major southern denominations came into existence only because they were convinced that God condoned slavery and could not abide by the contrary abolitionist beliefs of the mainstream parent churches from which they originated. These folks have been preserving a culture of hate under a false notion of nobility, morality and the righteousness of their cause since the last civil war ended. For many descendants of confederate Soldiers it never did end. You don’t have to drive far on a Sunday in the South to see cars with Dixie flags and Trump stickers side by side. They go together like peanut butter and jelly in the South. Trump support might have been about economic issues in some places, but down here, it was pure and simple pandering to wounded ego white identity politics practiced by folks who have had a chip on their shoulder since they lost the first civil war.
239
@Jason
To add a note to your comment: My parents were from the South and moved North for jobs before WWII where I was born. Most of my mother's family came with them, my father's family stayed in the South. So as a child, I was exposed to their thinking.
My great grandfather was in the Civil War, but he was in the Union Army. My Southern relatives either didn't know that, or were indoctrinated into the Southern way of thinking. They and some of my siblings are totally pro-Trump. Go figure that one out.
2
@Jason I imagine a lot of them are still reeling from the Bowling Green "massacre". We should give them some slack, and maybe some sedatives.
3
The right wing supposedly fears tyranny, yet they obviously can't recognize it when it's right in front of them.
272
@Mford The Right fears tyranny from the Left but has no problem exerting tyranny of their own. Hence, their semi-automatic weapons, so that they can take matters into their own hands if and when they decide they’ve had enough with their duly elected government.
15
@Mford Why do you think so many on the right oppose California, Democrats and other such instances of tyranny? Trump is their democratically elected representative protecting them, the Constitution, and freedom.
@Mford The only tyranny the right wing doesn't fear is that which they want to impose on everyone else.
12
Donald Trump "hopes" his base would be willing to fight to keep him in office. He seems not to understand that impeachment would not remove him from office unfortunately. I doubt that Trumpers, in reality, would bother to pull themselves out of their Barcaloungers to come to his aid, being basically a bunch of cowards unless they are at one of his rallies.
"It doesn’t matter that we’re not on the brink of a civil war; the threat as outlined by right-wing media is intended to inspire fear in liberals and conservatives alike. For conservatives, it’s the notion that Democrats will stop at nothing to get rid of Mr. Trump and will marshal the forces of the “deep state” to right the wrongs of the 2016 election. For liberals, it is a warning: Don’t push churchgoing, gun-loving conservatives too far, or there’ll be dangerous consequences."
5
We have always had a population of dangerous loons in this country.
Now we have right wing propaganda media on TV, radio, and the internet stirring them up. We have internet connections facilitating their meetings, and we even have so-called politicians feeding their lies and whackiest conspiracy fantasies back to them.
Our military and law enforcement are partially infiltrated, and the honorable among them have been ordered to stand down.
I truly fear for my country.
86
@Victor
The lunatic fringe in this country certainly predates Trump. Richard Hofstadter's classic 1964 book, "The Paranoid Style in American Politics" set out their ethos, and it still persists. The John Birch Society was mocked "fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the right!" But even as prior generations aged and died out, they have been replaced by youthful loons a la Charlottesville.
My feeling is that the fascist right is not a strategic risk to American stability (in Europe, though, thismay not be the case, given 20th century history). But the ability of the right to spread misery and fear is real,.
We are just fortunate that the old rogue Trump does not have an heir apparent --- his sons are widely despised, and a Stephen Miller is so personally odious that there is no risk of him marshalling a base willing to fight for him. So once Trump is out of office we can return to our sane, if flawed, democracy.
What's disturbing about the lunatic right is that they are "among us." An ostensibly normal chap you sit beside at work might suddenly reveal his conviction that the "deep state" plans to execute (fill in the blank). Many do not have a firm hold on reality and are capable of believing outrageous conspiracy theories and civil war clatfart.
5
"We’re no closer to a (frankly ridiculous) civil war than we were two days or two weeks or two years ago."
Perhaps not of the type and degree as you talk about in the article, or personally envision.
But in several other ways, it sure has felt to me that we've been in a cold civil war since the 1980s with the rise of neocons, tossing of Fairness Doctrines for media, and rise of the state medium, Fox "news".
Do we not indeed have 'brother against brother/father' again?? We've got the WHOLE family now, as females have made gains however belatedly and slowly.
I've wondered any number of times just how not-impossible a civil war here could be, with extreme polarization, constant hot rhetoric from say-anything Orange Guy, and guns rampant. Even to the point of looking at ex-pat options if Trump can't be turned around in the coming year.
There's also the case to be made - other commenters have made it here - that we're still fighting the original Civil War in much of current red-blue conflicts.
So, sure, let's not panic - especially the wingnuts, as if they'd let go of that drug - but let's not underestimate possible dangers that could very suddenly tip to 'real and present' ones.
18
@Ambient Kestrel
That the Left believes itself blameless in this endless rage game is bizarre. These comments are the mirror image of those in the Wall Street Journal. Both sides are equally myopic, believe only they are on the side of the angels, and truly need to stop reading the news every day and take a break from constant media churn.
Beautifully constructed and important.
What is oh-so-curious to me is how readily these folks connect very thin or nonexistent dots concerning Hunter Biden but can't connect the massive dotted line directly from freezing military aid to saying that he needed a "favor" and "reciprocity".
Have a shred of dignity, Republicans. Honestly!
82
It is illegal to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Free speech isn't impinged by this law.
It should be illegal to post lies, threats, messages of war and other disruptive messages that have no basis in fact. The first amendment's freedom of speech and writing operates in a context of friendly dissent. Inciting people to war is not, and should not be, legal. If you threaten to kill someone, the FBI investigates you.
What about "the rule of law" which seems to have disappeared? If Lewandowski can diss Congress and get away with it, where are the laws? Why wasn't he arrested?
The courts don't enforce much. Finally Alex Jones was shut down but not without hurting so many people with his false, crazy, hurtful and popular claims about Sandy Hook and liberals. The NRA lies every day. FOX as well.
Freedom without a context is chaos. Calls for Civil War, from the POTUS, should be enough, minus any of the rest of what he says and does, for being arrested. He is above the law? Then the law has sunken to a new low.
86
@Jeanie LoVetri "It should be illegal to post lies... and other disruptive messages that have no basis in fact." Who gets to decide what the facts are? Jeanie LoVetri? Jeanine Pirro? Kellyanne Conway? Bill Barr? Bill Maher? Donald Trump? Rachel Maddow? Me? That's the problem we face today. If we all agreed on the facts, if we all agreed on what is a problem and what isn't (some say we're in danger from climate change while others say we're in danger from immigrants), we would not be having a "civil war" and we'd be able to start on a path to solve the problems. We let the right wing get away with creating an imaginary universe and didn't crush the nonsense when we had the chance. Now Trump has so many adherents that he can't be considered to represent just a fringe element in society. Donald Trump became president because his lies were treated in the media as news while the comments of someone like Michael Bennet or Tulsi Gabbard or Jay Inslee are not. Why on earth was every Trump rally given coverage in 2015-2016, as if it were in and of itself a major event (thereby making it a major event), but not those of every other 2016 Republican candidate, much less every Democratic candidate this year? Notice the insect taking a ride on your backpack before you enter your house and flick it back into the garden where it belongs and you won't have an infestation in the house. Invite it in and you will have a lot of trouble getting rid of it and its offspring.
1
He tweeted about Civil War 2 because he would genuinely prefer to have our cities ruined and millions dead than renounce an ounce of personal power. His tweets will become more unraveled as time progresses. This is not a man with much emotional ballast.
140
@Siara Delyn
Odd how Americans have either forgotten or ignored Steve Bannon's nihilistic theories of the need for great upheavals in America to facilitate reconstruction and change. If millions suffer and die, so bit it goes this miserable psychology.
2
@Siara Delyn
Hyperbole. He backed away from striking Iran did he not. To write Trump desires millions dead is irresponsible, clueless, and reckless. It does nothing to further dialogue and stirs the pot. Bluntly, I’m so over America and its children-citizens, left and right.
@Siara Delyn This is not a man with mental balance.
The hysteria of Trump's tweets is in direction proportion to his level of fear and anxiety. He knows that the day of reckoning is finally coming.
Expect to see this hysteria getting ratcheted up as the forces of democracy close in on him.
Instead of the bloviating blowhard he presents to the world, behold what is really going on: a scared little boy crying, and no one and nothing can help him.
It's the stuff of a Stephen King novel, except it's true.
40
@William P.
Maybe some wise and kind-hearted person could help him find a face-saving way to step down . . . .
Remember the militias? The right's Civil War rhetoric is the same as the rest of their magical-thinking gobbledigook: power fantasies for insecure men.
35
@Josh Wilson Armed militias exist all over the country and are growing.
"While militia organizations have a variety of ideologies and objectives, ... they generally share a common belief in the imminent or actual rise of a tyrannical government in the United States which, they believe, must be confronted through armed force.[19][20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_organizations_in_the_United_States
4
@Laura Benton I don't advocate being afraid. As someone else noted, the correct side will win if there is war (which I doubt).
It's possible that we regress through the use of force but I think this is not sustainable. Plus I think if it came to force, the left isn't unarmed either. There are a lot of gun loving liberals.
It's a war of ideas. But the right wing is fighting their jihad.
@Laura Benton and yet, these militia's stand silent in the face of this tyrannical president?