A very instructive article about the memcon system and the “curious” way it was applied for the July 25th Zelensky phone call. I just wish I could go back to a time when I didn’t have to lose sleep not just about Trump’s well documented public behavior, and his very public tweets, speeches and declarations, but now about his conversations with foreign leaders, and the fact that there are “White House lawyers” at the ready to deep six anything they recognize as compromising.
Mr. Pascal says that all of this should “raise eyebrows.” Well I don’t know about my eyebrows, but my hair is sure “standing on end!”
20
So now Trump squeezed Australia too. Who's next: England, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Japan? Just have to look at who Trump has slapped with unwarranted tariffs -- or large military aid recipients.
Prepare for a smoking Kalashnikov!!
Perhaps either Israeli or Russian intelligence have full transcripts and/or recordings of this phone call that they can share with the American people?
3
Those are good questions, and we all know what the answer is:
The president blatantly used his office and position to ask a foreign leader for help investigating a political rival regarding a bunch of already-discredited hogwash. And then his minions tried to cover it up, knowing how wrong and dangerous the presidents actions were.
The president is a significant security risk to our nation, the Constitution, and the electoral process. Now we also have a cover-up intended to protect the president from scrutiny regarding his disgusting, immoral, un-American behavior.
And that’s the answer.
1
"The editorial review process was not used to remove unflattering or incorrect things about the president, but troubling reports like the whistle-blower complaint suggest that practice may have changed in the Trump administration".
This is no surprise to me and I doubt to anyone else as well.
Now that the dam is broken I expect many more examples of Trump's machinations to protect his delicate ego will become public.
At what point will Republicans begin to believe, as most Democrats now do, that enough is enough.
2
Why not use professional court recorders to memorialize the phone calls? These people are skilled at taking verbatim notes of spoken words and their work product is recognized by courts of law as being accurate legal documents? The note taking process described here seem amateurish and unprofessional.
Or (horrors!) use a tape recorder?
2
The White House may not have taped the phone call but it is possible that Ukraine (or Russia) taped the call. If so, a complete transcript may surface at some point.
1
Mr Pascal, thank you for your testimony.
With Trump and Rudy leading the way with tweets and interviews, and the whistle blower's crouton sized breadcrumbs, it shouldn't be difficult to demonstrate, even in cartoon form, the criminal level of incompetence in the White House.
Trump is quickly spending down our country's treasury and hegemony, transferring as much as possible to his family. It will take some time to reconstruct both, but first the criminal conman and his corrupt administration must be fully exposed and excised. They are like flesh eating bacteria. Only quick and decisive action can save the country from being consumed beyond it's ability to recover.
3
The (mis)handling and attempt to bury this record is testimony to the ineptness, dishonesty and paranoia of the Trump administration. Trump never enters into a conversation with anyone of import unless he thinks that he can secure a favour. This "favour" will prove his downfall. Good luck to the U$A.
2
Trump is paranoid. So are his lackeys. Barr, Pompeo, and the others know quite well that what is happening is against the law. Trump has no business threatening to withhold monies for dirt on Biden or his family. Since when has Trump cared about the legitimacy of the dirt he dishes out? That's the funny part. If the justice department here honestly believes that Biden and his son did something illegal they can start an investigation. They haven't . Trump is being Trump. He and the rest of his gang have violated their oaths of office. If we did what they are doing we'd be jailed posthaste.
4
The crazy thing is that the Trump gang thought that releasing the sum-up would exonerate him, probably because it shows the president talking about corruption in the Biden family.
"Huh? What? We had a chat about how awful the Bidens are and how they deserve to be investigated, that's all. A perfect call!"
They have to be clueless about why the summary makes them look bad, otherwise they wouldn't have released it in the first place.
1
Right now the entire Trump regime is being propped up by one man, elected by a few thousand people in a small red state.
One word from McConnell and it's all over for the Trump gang. If Trump had any brains this would be keeping him up at night. It should keep us up at night to think that one person is holding our entire country hostage in favor of this incompetent, increasingly unhinged, and thoroughly dishonest man.
1
Maybe I'm a little slow. Why don't we have an audio recording of the conversation, and a word for word transcription thereof? Thank you, of course, for the helpful description of the memcon process. It made me glad to head that the Obama administration did not make substantive edits to memcon packages. Obama was an exemplary president. All the same, the process describe here looks to be susceptible to political manipulation. That is, the process assumes and relies on the fact that an administration is ethical, honest, etc. So why don't we have an audio recording of the conversation? The summary memo that the White House released was damning. How much worse must the real thing be?
1
The question: why White House lawyers (or any senior White House official) would direct the memcon’s removal from the primary classified electronic system to the ultrasensitive system that only a select few officials have access to if the content of the call itself did not require its placement there, begs the question, can the House of Rep Intel committee ask for a review of other presidential conversations stored on the “lock down server?
1
Enough already. Please Congress rid us of this completely incompetent, vulgar and obscene "leader."
Why do they normally take all these notes and compare them, yet stop short of an audio recording? It's absurdly convoluted. Just audio record the calls.
1
WHY did Joe Biden take his son along on those trips to China and Ukraine? Was Biden basically saying that he himself could be bought, especially after China gave Hunter a deal worth a billion and a half?
earlier this afternoon I was watching a movie using the closed caption and it occurred to me that the telephone transcript is just that closed caption, no one has the audio of the call so no one knows the tone, I rewound the movie and put the volume on what a difference this made, knowing Trump's arrogance he probably did pressure the Ukrainian President, and here is something else regarding the discussion at the UN, here you are a guest in the US, thrown into a situation you didn't really ask for, sitting next to a President that you had to study in order to navigate him and his administration, having had dealings with Giuliani who is way out there on a planet of his own, and asked by Trump "did I pressure you?" what was he to say, all he probably wanted to do at that time was shrink and get out of dodge. so yes without the audio the White House did actually totally mishandle and mislead the public as Trump has misled since his foray into this field in 2015. Trump is nothing but a braggart, a bully and a poor excuse as a role model. this game that the pundits play about the first calls between Australia and the US as reasoning for him hiding his calls is ridiculous and childish there is an old saying when you start making a fool of yourself while covering for anyone including your children and in this case your President it is time to review your values and either join this farce and tell your children when history is not on your side, I thought he was a good guy. really..
1
Well it appears now with Australia and Italy being “squeezed“ by the Trump regime for political purposes, we are about to find out a whole lot more about the Secret Server Situation.
Everything Trump Touches Dies, and a whole lot of people in the administration and overseas are now about to pay the full price for kissing Trump’s ring .....
2
“as close to verbatim as possible”?
Why not simply tape the calls and transcribe them? Why rely so heavily on notes?
1
Why White House lawyers (or any senior White House official) would direct the memcon’s removal from the primary classified electronic system to the ultrasensitive system.
Too many leaks coming out of the White House!
All phone calls with foreign leaders should be (Should have been) put on the ultrasensitive system.
The White House lawyer have been negligent up until this point.
Thank you very much für this informative report. Now I know that I was right to subscribe the NWT!
Greetings from the old world!
Foreign Policy is the prerogative of the President, not the NSC
And whoever the President, we can not have a secret Deep State operating - if the whistle blower is fed up she/he can vote
Time for all of the brave Members of the Resistance in the WH and Exec Branch (discussed in that anonymous letter the NYT published some months ago) to step up and remember that their oath was to defend the Constitution and not DJT.
1
Let’s just make a very short list of the things “ the Trump White House “ does NOT mishandle. Saves time.
I’m wondering if William Barr not having recused himself from an investigation in which he is named will incur any legal jeopardy for the AG.
1
subpoena ALL past records and find out
Can someone wake me up from this nightmare?
An Obama administration official questioning the behavior of the Trump administration.
Sorry.
Credibility = 0.0
A number of comments have noted that there must be an Ukrainian record of this conversation. To expedite matters why not have a select Republican committee review the Ukrainian version and report on any differences. I suggest Jim Jordan, John Bolton, Mitt Romney and Jed Bush.
When this cancer finally leaves the White House, the last few months will be spent deleting and destroying any and all correspondence, memcons and audio/video recordings. These people have large number of skeletons in their closets. They will leave no records whatsoever.
Trump obviously hired Barr to run a global counter witch hunt. The farce intensifies every day.
Maybe while Trump is in office and his “fixers” are handling the transcripts of his phone calls they should change the name from “memcon” to “conmen” - seems appropriate.
Now we know Pompeo has to go too
1
The only thing PERFECT about the Criminal Trump is his unblemished complete disregard for the law , all his life.
I wonder if Trump's tax returns are also in this ultrasensitive system along with all his calls to Putin.
The “transcript” is not completely accurate - no kidding! Any précis is just that - we also need the Russian, Chinese, N and S Korean, S Arabia, Israeli, and Japanese conversations. And the Generals? Time to speak up! Oh yes and add Jared’s calls to the investigation!
1
Zelensky has the goods on tape.
The time noted on the Thursday, July 25 memcon indicates the call lasted from 9:03AM to 9:33AM EDT and was placed from the Residence.
That was after midnight in Ukraine’s time zone, but during normal working hours for the President. So why was it was not placed from the Oval Office?
Clearly, something is rotten in "Denmark," alias the White House.
1
In the so-called transcript, Trump speaks in grammatically correct complex sentences, something he has never ever done. Makes you wonder what else the editors cleaned up.
You mean the White House is lying? I am shocked. Shocked.
Excellent! From a person whose job it was to keep records of such conversations, it is instructive to note that the record is not 'verbatim'! And, all edits are traceable. In my career, I would look at drafts of articles I wrote and go back to priors to see what changes I made, and why I changed my draft (I put memos in parentheses as to why I made a change). Let's see what the 'staff lawyers' thought was so sensitive as to reclassify those notes!
As Louis Brandeis said, "sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" and can be invoked with regards to corruption.
Let the sun shine!
39
From the didactic point of view, Trump is institutionalizing the contempt of many Americans for administration , government branches and other democratic institutions. This maybe the most troubling legacy Trump would leave in history
25
First, there is a very good reason that records - unedited, un-redacted, unaltered records - of Presidential communications and meetings need to be kept: the President is NOT an unaccountable dictator, answering to no one but himself. It's clear that Trump doesn't believe this, but whether he does or doesn't, it doesn't change the fact that Presidents cannot conduct foreign policy - or any other business - in complete secrecy, with no one keeping a check on him. He's a President, not a CEO, of the United States.
Having reaffirmed that a President's meetings are subject to oversight and monitoring, it's incumbent that these conversations be recorded in full, and unaltered for any future review by Congress in their role as the "check and balance" on the Executive Branch/President. Allowing anyone to edit, redact, alter, or delete any portion of these should be a felony, and/or grounds for impeachment and removal from office.
This brings up the obvious question: Where are these unaltered, un-redacted conversations? Do they still exist? If not, then those responsible for destroying them must be punished. If they do still exist, then they must be immediately turned over to the appropriate people in Congress.
Trump is acting every bit the unanswerable dictator, and must be reined in. If the Republicans won't do their part, then they need to be reined in as well, and suffer the consequences due to all those who betray their duty.
67
If the memcon was significantly altered, it is possible to get the necessary information from the record kept by the Ukranians, who may even have recorded the call.
9
@Kingfish52 Bravo!
Notwithstanding the fact that the released memo can be greatly damaging to Trump, I can also see the real reason why Trump White House released it. Perhaps, it was to divert the conversation about a release of a transcript.
Remember, transcripts should be verbatim, that is, word-for-word. I see many people now treating this memo as the transcript, when it's not at all word-for-word.
When we actually see the word-for-word transcript, we'll most likely find out the memo is not nearly as catastrophic as the actual conversation.
130
If the verbatim transcript were not damning, it would have been released.
I worked for Barr to neuter the Mueller Report. Barr is even more awful than Trump.
"...I believe the so-called transcript the White House has released of the July phone call might not fully reflect the president’s conversation with Mr. Zelensky."
We don't know what this "transcript" is but it certainly is not a transcript as that word is commonly understood. Only the GOP and its enablers are hammering that word to try and cement it in the public mind much like Barr's creative and misleading "summary" of the Mueller report.
If there's one thing this Administration has proven beyond any reasonable doubt it is that they are not entitled to a presumption of veracity and integrity, especially when covering their own misdeeds.
211
@Pat
The software is almost surely fed a recording, to enable subsequent validation of its accuracy by humans
3
@Pat
I keep recalling that the ellipses ("...") in the memorandum come at very interesting points in the conversation. I suspect the removed passages may be part of a multilayered coverup.
11
@Pat
The actual transcript is exactly what was placed on the secure system that they are not usually stored on.
There has been no explanation why this transcript has not been released.
It will be up to the Hose committees to pry it out of there.
Thank you for this informative piece. It casts even more doubt on the practice of the Trump administration.
4
I'm wondering whether there's any question of this mishandling of the top secret system being two-way. Things were apparently being inappropriately "locked down," but once they are in that state there are very severe limits in place as to how that information can be released and with whom it can be discussed. For example, in discussions with staff or, god forbid, foreign leaders, you can't just blithely refer to matters that have been classified in this way, can you? Were those strictures being violated on the outgoing side as well?
1
Great piece. Thank you.
One concern is not so much the ability to obtain the files but to also obtain the encryption keys.
Just imagine the turmoil when the files are delivered but no one can open them.
What does the law say about this?
Files delivered but locked down under encryption.
Expecting some very dirty tricks in the coming months.
8
Why aren't such calls simply recorded and archived, so accurate written transcriptions can be made?
13
Given the stark possibility Mr. Pascal raises that the released summary (it's not an actual transcript) of the Trump-Zelensky conversation may not include all the details of the call, I'd like to know what options Congress has to investigate.
If investigators determine they need to search any of the White House sensitive-document repositories, are there provisions in the law to permit that? Must investigators have the requisite level of security clearance for the classification level of the server? What if Congress determines Trump or other administration officials committed impeachable offenses involving classified information, whether related to or separate from the current impeachment inquiry? Might an impeachment charge rely on classified information that is not made public?
If Mr. Pascal cannot answer these questions, I hope the Times can find someone who can.
6
Great enlightening op-ed. I'm wondering about the ethics of WH lawyers and senior officials who would lock-box a transcript that essentially proves that Trump withheld $391 million approved by Congress -- that put at risk Ukraine righting a war on its Eastern front with Russia; giving a direct advantage to Putin. Putin deluged that border with 13 assaults last week using weapons that defied the Minsk agreement. If these folks see themselves as patriotic Americans, shouldn't they demonstrate they understand and follow the rule of law and the Constitution--that they swore to uphold?
8
From what I remember the memo was said to have been produced partly using voice recognition software and that is why there are gaps where the words were unrecognizable. This seems similar to the process described by the author, where gaps were filled in from people's notes. If that's true it means there is (or was) an actual recording of the call.
3
@PJ Of course there has to be a digital recording of the entire conversation.
This all assumes that we had a "normal" president with a modicum of discretion, and a desire to advance the policies of the United States. We do NOT have a normal, or even ethical, president.
30
This system of documenting, memorializing and preserving these calls is likely as close as we are going to get to irrefutable evidence of impeachable conduct like Nixon's White House tapes. There is a reason why Trump prefers to discuss sensitive (for him) matters one-to-one (as documented, including by Mueller), with no witnesses and no notes or recordings. So no one can testify to them except Trump and the other party. This gives Trump tremendous flexibility in describing the conversation (should he see fit) and sets up a he said-she said contest should the other party ever contradict him.
11
We learned this afternoon that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo also participated in this call. I am perplexed as to his silence following the call. More than likely he will invoke Executive Privilege if asked anything about this but I and 340 million other Americans are very curious to know why, following the call, he said nothing.
Perhaps that dream of running for the Senate in Kansas is now just exactly that. A dream. In the meantime, let's hope he finds a good lawyer....like everyone else in the White House.
25
Alex Pascal, what are we to think of Putin’s statement that the transcripts of his calls with Trump cannot be released without his approval?
17
When is the coverup worse than the crime? In this administration, whenever, wherever and for whatever reason possible. In other words, the law is no longer the law, the truth is no longer the truth and our country is no longer a democracy.
Vote.
11
There was no "mishandling." Consistent with plan and true to form, the Zelensky phone records were squirreled away, "locked down" and key thrown away, incriminating evidence deleted from the transcript (abridged already for distortion) and the whistleblower memo which the Trump circle of revolving door lackeys played hot potato with as long as they could.
All of which served, as intended, the multiple purposes of flattering The Don, preserving information potentially usable for later shakedowns, and otherwise "deepsix"-ing records to help cover up the corruption at the core of the Administration.
Nixon preserved his taped phone calls thinking he could use them to exonerate himself, and the illiterate Trump was apparently too ignorant of history to avoid making the same mistake.
8
So Trump's call with Zelensky was so "perfect" as he claims, why did the memcon get moved to the ultrasensitive system that only a select few officials have access to?
Congress needs to immediately subpoena the original memcon which was for no reason "locked down" at the direction of WH lawyers.
6
We are seeing more and more compelling evidence that Trump extrapolates his business tactics in his embarrassing attempt at statecraft. It is safe to expect that many more cases of mishandled memos and the conversations supporting them have been suppressed by this administration. The Zelensky case is the tip of the iceberg, and we should be delivering subpoenas to Dan Coats, Jim Mattis, John Kelly, Steve Bannon, Michael Flynn, Rob Porter and every other member of this administration who has parted ways with The White House. If they invoke the Fifth Amendment, offer them immunity.
6
Gosh, maybe even Trump's long-time pal Vladdie Putin is wondering if the whistleblower's report is accurate. It must be authenticated!
According to New Yorker satirist, Andy Borowitz:
"Putin Saddened That Trump Asked Other Foreign Country to Meddle in Election.' Sept 25.
"MOSCOW (The Borowitz Report)—Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Wednesday that he was “saddened and hurt” that Donald J. Trump had asked a different foreign country to meddle in a U.S. election.
“I thought when it came to election meddling that Donald and I were exclusive,” an emotional Putin told reporters. “This feels like a betrayal.”
Putin said that when he read the call summary of the phone conversation between Trump and the President of Ukraine, “I could not believe my eyes. It was just like the conversations Donald and I used to have.”
The Russian leader said that he had considered meddling in the 2020 election to help Trump, but added, “Now I’m not so sure.”
“We had something special, but now that’s gone,” Putin said. “I feel so used.”
Wow, the American public and Putin both feel so used.
4
The release of the call memo was a cry for help by Trump's hostages in the White House.
It is the only explanation for handing a smoking gun (in Trump's own words) to the House of Representatives.
They know he's delusional and if it were suggested that it was exonerating, he'd buy it even though it is proof of his corruption.
11
Trump and company have mishandled everything since he took office. The only difference here is that someone cared enough to speak out.
4
It’s likely based on what we know about Trump, that he does not even know the laws of the nation. He has lived his life by cheating and lying, and it does not occur to him that he can’t still.
This alone is reason for impeachment.
6
I and I must assume many others want to see the verbatim text of this phone call, unedited. Given the brazen dishonesty of the president and his subordinates it seems right.
3
About two paragraphs in, I stopped reading.
Memocons? Seriously?
Transcripts should be transcribed calls, word for word. Just like in a courtroom.
Period.
The problem is it seems they are memos then reviewed by others who then send newly revised changed memos somewhere to be reviewed, changed etc, etc.
Why all the rigamarole?
Anyone ever play the telephone game? This sounds like a version of that.
Ridiculous.
Don’t these high level government staff people have anything better to do to fill their time? I don’t when this process was started but there’s a very simple fix.
Transcribe the calls, word for word.
Period.
10
Excuse me for asking, but why did the US stopped recording the presidential telephone calls in the first place?
9
I wonder why the memcom system is used rather than verbatim transcripts based on recordings. Does anyone know?
10
"Mishandle"? That's an interesting and docile word to describe intentionally hiding/obscuring a document.
7
Don't you mean to ask if they mishandled it worse than they mishandle everything else?
1
Why are there not recorded tapes?! Instead, this 'memcon'
system/process seems like some multiple Stenographer pool inputs that then get "agreed upon", and undoubtedly tinkered with along the way, by various levels of 'ears', to produce the supposedly accurate version. The system/process seems rift with possibilities for inaccuracies, resulting from honest errors or disagreements, up to lies, resulting from falsifications and deceits. Again, why are there not recorded records? In this
super forensic age, wouldn't it be harder to fake the tapes?
6
WSJ is just reporting that Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State also listened in on the Trump- President Zelensky phone call.
So subpoena Pompeo, for his "recollections" of the call.
4
Definition:
Gaff: a process wherein a politician inadvertently reveals the truth!
2
Is it my imagination or does Zelensky seem to be using words and syntax a lot like Trump uses. “We did win big”, “I had an opportunity to learn from you. We used quite a few of your skills· and knowledge and were able to use it as an example for our elections” “trying to work hard because we wanted to drain the swamp here in our country” “You are a great teacher for us” “Not .only 100%, but actually 1000%” “because I agree with you 100%. Her attitude towards me was far from the best as she admired the previous President and she was on his· side.”
This might just be carefully-drafted (if obsequious) text preparation on Zelensky's part, but alternatively I wonder if his actual words were different and wonder if staffers (or even Trump?) after the meeting may have paraphrased them into words that would please Trump and perhaps reduce the implication of a shakedown by casting Zelensky as willing. That ultra-secret filing system might contain the original contemporaneous notes, or perhaps someone who listened in could comment on whether Zelensky’s comments had been protectively transformed?
5
Thank you Mr. Pascal for describing how a memcon should be produced and stored. By a White House which does not have to cover-up for a rogue, lying president.
Your "questions should raise eyebrows across America and warrant answers from the administration as well as independent investigators." But only Democrats and Independents actually care about getting the truth and abiding by laws and constitutional guardrails.
Over ninety percent of Republicans have completely abandoned truth, reality, the Constitution, ethics and morality. They see and know what is going on, but believe that it does not matter that Trump lies and commits crimes, that it does not matter that Republicans in Congress lie and and mock their sworn oaths to defend the Constitution. What matters to them is that their gang of liars and law-breakers retains power.
Forty percent of voters (less than 40 percent of American adults) are MAGAts. They not only lack ethics, they lack dignity. They crawl before their dear leader and worship at his feet. They are the GOP: the Gangster Opprobrious Party. That party is led by a mafia style boss.
But even without Trump, the GOP is a party of liars and gangsters. America cannot trust anything Republicans say, cannot trust the Gangster Opprobrious Party and their mob boss. Everything coming out of this crime organization "should raise eyebrows across America" and demand scrutiny.
3
And while we’re at it, let’s compare the “memcon” to the word for word transcription of the call...that’s done by a neutral third party service.
Not the WH, not the Democrats, not the Republicans, not the high level government officials.
That would be entertaining.
And enlightening.
The willing release by the Administration of the highly incriminating memorandum of the telephone conversation between the Fake President and the young, inexperienced Ukrainian President has led to a great deal of bewildering head scratching. Why on earth would Trump do such a self-damaging act? First, this would not be the first time that he recklessly, foolishly, engaged in this type of destructive behavior. His admission on national t.v. that he fired F.B.I.Director Comey because of the “Russian thing” is but one such example. Second, I think that is a very reasonable assumption that Trump personally participated in the devious, illegal “cut and paste” editing process and the creation of the final doctored memorandum. The First Narcissist was so very “proud” of it but, of course, grossly miscalculated its impact. MAGA!
2
The so-called transcript is not an actual transcript. It is a paraphrase as shown by both the description of the document and the presence of gaps ... ... in the description.
2
Why aren't the calls recorded?
1
Lindsey Graham, Adam Schiff will do just fine. I don't care. I am voting my mind this time. I will vote anyone but Trump.
1
I can hardly wait for the Democrats party using a Marlon Brando voice over: first I need a favor and you never wanted to be in my debt commercials while Trump scratches his check.
When are Republicans going to join Democrats and say "enough is enough"?
3
Let's drain the swamp with full transparency. The American people deserve this.
1
The Trump White House team are skilled magicians. They can magically change a political call into a top secret call.
1
'The memcon released to the public last week might not be the only, or the most complete, White House record of the presidential conversation in question at the heart of the current controversy.'
Shouldn't it be possible to get a verbatim record of the conversation from the Russians or the Chinese? May be the Israelis have a copy too.
3
What the whistle-blower describes is nothing but hearsay evidence. The whole thing is nothing but the Kavanaugh Smear reskinned into a whistle-blower complaint. Written by lawyers, probably 'Clinton Connected' lawyers and purely a political partisan attack. Is it as obscene as the Kavanaugh Smear? So far not yet but keep plugging away at it and you will get it there. Good thing the voters aren't paying attention huh?
2
@GregP
You seem too eager to defend Trump, does this initial allegation of wrongdoing not worry you? For the sake of the principles of democracy, moral decency and the Constitution? That is why we are going through a more thorough fact finding process now aren’t we? It may be hearsay but is part of a process that has been corroborated on many accounts, made contemporaneously as part of the official duties of those involved. Hence there is a need for fact finding and also supoena all evidence to flush out the facts. Hence the forthcoming testimony and more supoena for fact finding.
76
@GregP
All complaints begin with hearsay, an out-of-court statement made to establish the truth of the matter asserted. After the complaint, an investigation puts people under oath and examines the facts in the complaint. In this case, the president has confirmed some of the facts in the whistle-blower report, the facts of the conversation and what occurred after the conversation. The investigation should either confirm or deny other facts.
60
@GregP
At this point, the House doesn't really even need the whistleblower's complaint or his/her testimony to impeach.
They have the rough transcript of the telephone call itself, supplied to them by the White House.
That document is enough. The rest is gravy.
21
Dear Mr. Pascal,
Are these conversations with foreign leaders electronically recorded? If not, why not? If the memcon protocol is the only method for memorialization, to a layperson it seems like a very archaic means.
Respectfully,
John
7
Members of the House committees investigating the whistleblowers allegations should be privy to the information and processes in this article. We can't assume that they already are.
6
Unless they have simply disabled the database tracking system that records the change data. They might also be learning which data to erase to cover their tracks from reading this, although I think what Mr. Miller leaned from Watergate is to better and more fully modify or eliminate inconvenient records before they are a problem. The other lesson from Watergate, that I think Trump was likely mentored in by Roy Cohn, is refuse to turn over key information at all. I expect a Constitution crisis when Trump simply obstructs justice and refuses to obey the law including Court orders.
14
The Whistle-Blower, whoever he/she is, needs to be protected against harm by political extremists in this country for as long as he/she feels in need of it.
41
Thank you for this wonderfully lucid explanation of the Memcon process. The more process-related information that the public receives, the better. When trying to understand the proverbial "what happened" question, understanding the relevant processes is essential.
20
The questions raised by this editorial absolutely need to be answered. In addition to needing the word-for-word transcript -- without edits -- we need to know who decided to send the memcon to the separate national security server. We also need to know if the Trump administration has been mis-using this separate server on other occasions to hide embarrassing or criminal behavior on the part of the president.
30
There is no reason to think that Trump does this the same way that Obama did. There is very little carry over, and what there was Trump rightly distrusted.
Obama probably had a better system. Trump may not have a real "system" at all; he has rebelled against all the people who might have set it up.
6
@Mark Thomason -- But what about the laws in place that codify treatments of memcons.
@Mark Thomason the system prior to Trump is what our presidents have use since Gerald Ford.
The author of this column states:
"I wonder why White House lawyers (or any senior White House official) would direct the memcon’s removal from the primary classified electronic system to the ultrasensitive system that only a select few officials have access to if the content of the call itself did not require its placement there."
I don't wonder at all. I think the answer is obviously that the people who placed it there knew that it contained evidence of an impeachable, and possibly criminal, act. They are thus complicit in the coverup.
64
@Vesuviano
Sir, if the recorded call is saved verbatim in the "ultra-sensitive system", then there will be no actual cover-up of the original cover-up (the redacted/altered printout of the call).
A cover-up of the cover-up would require also destroying all other notes than were taken; this would be unlikely as someone on this list informed the whistle-blower, and they do not want to go to jail.
The Only Way To Get To " Perfect " Is To Hide The Truth.......
21
I would think that because Trump thought this was such a beautiful conversation he would not have tolerated its having been hidden away. After all, beautiful moments are not exactly common in this administration and, knowing Trump's need for adoration, one would expect the conversation to become Twitter fodder.
But, it was hidden so deep hardly anyone would be able to find it. Thus, I would suggest to WH journalists that they ask Mr. Trump "if you thought this conversation was so beautiful why was it deep sixed in the bowels of an ultra secret computer system where nobody could admire its beauty?"
I doubt they would get an answer but it might be fun to see who he tries to pin it on. Too bad sweat beads don't appear on his upper lip when lies gush out like they did with Nixon. Probably can't make it thru the orange makeup.
40
So who will turn out to be the "Rosemary Woods" of the Trump WH? Any bets on this?
13
@Paul
Haha...Vegas is taking odds.
@Paul
My bets on Mulvaney.
Hmmmm.....maybe they had something to hide?
16
Who thinks William Barr and Rudy Giuliani had a hand in making multiple "extortion" memcons disappear?
26
Is the headline a rhetorical question?
4
@William Fordes. They were being ironic.
@William Fordes
Alex Pascal is way too kind.
"Mishandle"?
yeah, right....as if it was a "Mistake".
Given that even the most rudimentary smart phone comes pre-loaded with quite accurate speech recognition software, that turns spoken sounds into written transcripts, the obvious question is why not here? I suspect the answer is that every president, Republican or Democrat wants "plausible deniability." That want to be able to say, "Nah, that's not what I really said." All of them saw what happened to Nixon.
Perhaps the Presidential Records Act ought to be amended to require all presidential conversations to be taped, whether on the phone or elsewhere, and should be available to the public, if not containing genuine secrets, contemporaneously. That will reduce the horse trading that goes on. Real secrets will be revealed after 30 years.
7
Why isn't the actual, word-for-word, telephone conversation between Trump and Zelensky not available and made public? Aside from the memcon process, wasn't the actual phone call recorded electronically? And if not recorded electronically, why isn’t it essentially reconstructed as a word-for-word version by the NSC policy staff responsible for preparing the unedited draft memcon? The "rough transcript" made public by the WH under pressure from Congress is undoubtedly the most sanitized version of the actual conversation possible.
27
I had a neighbor who sold a cow belonging to another neighbor. The owner went looking for his cow and asked if anyone had seen it. He kept looking for a week. He called all the cattle haulers in the county and asked had they hauled a cow matching her description to market in the past ten days . One said yes he had, but the cow was paired with a calf that the cow would not claim.He said he hauled it for the man's near neighbor, a man who had denied twice having seen the cow We vaccinated cows for brucellosis. It was a free service and each animal was given a permanent metal ear tag with an identification number. Should the disease show up at market the cow could be traced back to the source. The missing cow's owner had all the numbers from all the cows he ever had. He went to the stock yard with his numbers, but no they had not recorded the cows numbers as they sold. He drove home defeated. Just as he neared his drive here comes the neighbor about to pass so he pulls in front of him and makes him stop. He gets out of his truck holding the tag numbers and tells the man what the hauler had said and that he was going to the stock yards and if one of these numbers turned out to be his cow he would come back with the Sherriff. The man confessed.
I'm sure the Ukrainians have a recording of Trump's phone call.
24
@Kirk They have some sort of memo but they do not want make it public...Maybe with some pressure from the House they will rethink their position!
4
@yves rochette
"Maybe...they will rethink their position!"
ha ha ha.
ha
Don't forget that the Ukrainian side also had people listening and taking notes, and very well could have a actual recording of the conversation.... as well as any foreign intelligence agencies that potentially have ears on either the US or the Ukraine. If you don't think the Russians are listening in to the Ukrainians, go back to your John le Carre or Ian Fleming and brush up!
The transcript of this call will come out in it's entirety someday, and possibly the actual call itself will be heard before too long. This will leak out, or be put out by somebody, somewhere.
13
@Kenny B -- Kenny, Sadly, Ukraine is in a tough position and not ready to jump into our domestic conflict. They need Trump's aid to fight Putin's incursions from the East (to say nothing of Crimea). And ex-KGB agent Putin might be suggesting to Trump that this aid should be delayed, that the Ukraine has Clinton's server and that the Ukrainians hacked the DNC. And Trump might buy all this -- so Zelensky is walking on eggshells.
Still, Ukraine likely DOES have recordings of all the DJT and Giuliani and Barr calls.
The media must stop covering Trump and his administration as politicians and more like the crime family they are. As for "Trump Derangement Syndrome," mentioned by another commenter here, you can dissimulate all you like, but "Derangement Syndrome" might apply to how the GOP acted when they said Obama's tan suit was evidence cause for alarm, but remained silent at Trump's many documented crimes, gaffes, lies and attempts to subvert the government and cover up the investigations into his wrongdoing.
21
I’ve been a member of the group that 45’s cult has accused of being afflicted with Trump Derangement Syndrome. But can’t we all agree now that 45 is the one who’s deranged?
Trump's Roy Cohn aka A G Barr was listening in on the phone call to Ukraine president soliciting him to investigate his political opponent BideN. It appears Barr is a s corrupt and unethical as Roy Cohn was and is busy operating as a fixer hitman for Trump's political campaign . How unseemly can an Attorney General get perhaps he will join Attorney General John Mitchell who went to prison.
22
The memo the white house released is damning. I had to wonder how the wh thought that convo was legal!?What they are hiding is likely worse.
8
Mr. Pascal answered his own question in the second to last paragraph. With Trump Derangement Syndrome at high levels in most areas within the federal government, preventing leaks of classified information (e.g., The Call) was essential.
3
@dmanuta -- What Mr. Pascal said was that the primary system that is usually used was perfectly capable of avoiding leaks. It would seem the person afflicted with derangement by Trump is dmanuta.
7
To what extent have they destroyed notes, records, documents, recordings, and who among them now is willing to "break" his/her allegiance to trump and tell the truth when questioned?
I think the current situation is way more precarious vs. the Nixon White House as far as finding an honest person.
12
Dear Mr. Pascal,
Thank you for your very clarifying article.
After reading your description of the "memcon production process*" I'm left with the obvious question...why aren't all Presidential calls just recorded? (...like the old days?)
The process you describe below seems overly complicated with many opportunities for inaccuracies during the note-taking process all in an effort to generate "a first draft of the memcon as close to verbatim as possible."
Wouldn't this entire process would be much more accurate & efficient if Presidential calls were just recorded and transcribed afterward?
*"The memcon production process is supposed to produce as faithful, accurate and detailed a record of the president’s conversation with a foreign leader as possible. (But memcons are not purported to be verbatim transcripts.) Here’s how it works — or at least used to: The White House Situation Room, which connects and takes notes on foreign leader calls for the president, generated a first draft of the memcon as close to verbatim as possible. The Situation Room staff would then email the draft memcon to the National Security Council policy staff members who participated in the call to integrate their notes into the initial Situation Room draft."
Kind regards,
Jeff
26
Well to me a question that has not been answered and not even eluded to is what about the Ukranian side of the conversation.
Did they record the conversation with the President, take notes, have a transcript , etc?
14
@Reggy
I wrote a comment about this 20 minutes ago that the NYT chose not to publish. The answer is yes - and they probably have a recording as well.
3
@Reggy
The odds they would be willing to share such a thing seem low to me. Whatever they may think of Trump and his minions, they badly need the cooperation of the US administration and are unlikely to risk that in order to do favors for the House Democrats.
1
"...it would most likely have required a very senior White House official to direct its removal from that system and placement in the ultrasensitive system."
Dan Coats was fired a few days after the Trump-Zelensky conversation. Is it even conceivable that his dismissal was in no way connected to the gist of the call and subsequent cover-up?
30
Based on this administration’s record of routine and widespread deception, one must assume that whatever they say is a lie. The deviation for them is when they tell the truth. We should no longer presume good faith or honesty from them, only lies, deflections, and more lies.
Going forward, the onus must always be on this administration to prove they are telling the truth.
14
One need not assume that the version of the phone call released is any less revealing or damaging than the original one.
It is becoming obvious that the Trump WH is constantly looking over its shoulder to cover its actions.
Just now we learn of another potentially damaging cover up of a phone conversation between Trump and the government of Australia in which he asked for another "Favor" in order to get dirt on his opponents.
Where there is smoke there is fire.
When this thing is over the whole forest will have been revealed to have been burned to a crisp.
7
Trumpsters, with robotic talking points, will likely pivot to insisting this president is not trained in careful diplomatic discourse, that his naïveté and down to earthiness both excuses him and delights his base. They voted for a crude conman...so he shouldn’t be held to a higher standard.
Alas- ignorance of the law and intellectual flabbiness is no excuse. His betrayal of our national interest by cluelessness or design, by blind self-promotion or by a delusional notion that he is the national good- this betrayal stands. To his shock & indignation..he must face the music in a way he never has.
9
I actually find it strange the President has people spying on their phone calls. Any President, when did it start? How does one have a private conversation. I get people hate Trump, did they listen to Carter? Eisenhower?
2
@Mark Yes. Probably back very early they didn't might not have thought about it but things get stricter and stricter.
This is the person who's the head of the executive and the head of the state of the most powerful country on the earth. We pay his salary, his residence, etc. He is doing the job of POTUS - I'm surprised that less than a dozen people are NOT listening to every call made. The potential for abuse is much greater.
If a President wants to have a private conversation, he can call as Trump - he can resign, or he can probably get an exemption but I'd have to say this is all for his own good - we're supposed to know what he's doing as POTUS at all times since he carries the authority of the state and its people behind it. No way around it - part of the job description.
It also depends on who he talks with, when, etc. This is a 24/7 kind of a job...
6
@Mark Any conversation the President has in the conduct of his official business with our allies or our opponents is not a private conversation. In fact, phone calls with many of his family members (such as Ivanka and Jared) are also public conversations since they are both officially part of the administration.
These conversations are recorded because government officials need to know what was discussed and/or promised so they can be followed up on. This isn't new.
9
@Mark
The Presidential Records Act of 1978, 44 U.S.C. §§ 2201–2207 governing the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents created or received after January 20, 1981 including all official phone calls.
So starting with Reagan.
Readers old enough to recall the 1973 Watergate Hearings may be remembering the 18 1/2 minutes of recordings that went into cyber oblivion before Judge Sirica could review them in determining a ruling.
Nixon’s loyal secretary Rose Mary Woods took the details of the “accidental erasure” to her grave.
What a coincidence that a Trump White House and Nixon White House bear such a similar appearance.
I sincerely doubt that there is a single Trump acolyte capable of breaking free of this President’s spell and turning “state’s evidence” about this and other, similar, suspicious White House calls.
3
Without the dems baring their teeth, threatening and then directly imprisoning those who falsely claim executive privilege, I fear this investigation will be buried with the mounds of other "surely-this-time-he's-gone-too-far" impeachable offenses.
1
Of course there was more to the completed “memcom” than the White House released last week.
The administration’s document was five pages in length. The call between Trump and Zelensky was said to have lasted round about the half hour mark.
The average movie script is between 90 and 120 pages. Each page equals about a minute of film. The average half hour nightly news broadcast equals about a column of a printed newspaper.
As far as I can figure, and even accounting for the single-spacing, there are at least ten to 15 pages missing from what was released. Or should I say about 18 minutes of recorded conversation?
18
Does the Ukrainian side have a similar capacity to generate a transcript? If so, it might be interesting to read what they heard from DT.
6
The level of paranoia suggested here is one more scary indication of the Nixon-era behavior within this administration.
5
Are Trumps call’s to Putin transcribed, recorded, or they fully private? If the latter, that would explain a lot. That all this has been clear for so long is poignant and dangerous.
Let this latest treason be Trump’s last.
Stand and fight for the constitution.
The chief executive clearly won’t.
8
We know the CIA removed the direct eyewitness requirement for whistle blowers. This whistle blower complaint is nothing but hearsay - until recently, an unacceptable fit of accusation.
1
@Once From Rome This is not a trial. The whistleblower's complaint provides something more like probable cause sufficient to warrant investigation.
17
@Once From Rome You are wrong. It's not entirely hearsay. The WB's statements about what was in the call was hearsay. However, his meta-statements he heard about the cover up are NOT hearsay - they are first hand info to him. He can name who expressed concern to him. That is why it is legitimate.
Besides, if that's all there was, this would go no where. But we have the actual transcript (not available to us yet). We can subpoena that, etc.
8
"The memcon released to the public last week might not be the only, or the most complete, White House record of the presidential conversation in question at the heart of the current controversy."
This is exactly what many people have concerned and suspected because it doesn't look like the entire record of a half-hour conversation.
40
If lawyers were involved in moving the memcon to a different security system, and if it were shown that this was done to interfere with an investigation, wouldn't those lawyers be subject to disbarment for concealing evidence?
48
I have to believe there are older versions of these documents on system backups, especially if they existed on different systems.
12
Thank you for this point. In government, there are significant penalties for misuse of government equipment and systems for personal use. It appears that an attempt to "overclassify" the memcon of this conversation and use a specialized government system to hide the document for personal purposes would be a misuse of government systems and could be an impeachable offense in and of itself.
The systems of government in and around the White House are for the use of the President and the President's staff in an official capacity. They are paid for by us, the taxpayers, and abuse and misuse of them is akin to theft.
42
A "transcript" of a 30 minute call that takes 4 minutes to read out loud.... hmmm... nothing to see here.
77
@Jon Q I wondered the same thing but heard that much of the time was taken up with translation. One question though is whether translation in these situations is simultaneous or sequential.
8
@Jon Q
Exactly correct, and when you add this Administration's impeccable reputation for veracity and integrity it's easy to see we should just move right along.
17
@Michael
They only use translators during face to face meetings at the highest level. Otherwise, like this call, they use consecutive interpretation, which kills a lot of time.
1
Are. There. Tapes???
25
@Maria
No. They actually do what is described in the article. That is listen in, take notes, compare noted, create a document, update the document and finalize it.
Considering the technology that si available, it is surprising that telephone calls, with foreign leaders, are not recorded.
26
@Nick Metrowsky Eighteen minutes ring a bell?
4
@Maria
Why would the Ukranianes Not tape the phone conversation?
Mr. Pascal, you have done a fine service to your country by writing this column and explaining the process.
You have flagged several potential, alarming problems in the handling of the memcon. You've identified key players who would have been involved at each step of the process.
You have provided a roadmap to the House of whom to investigate (who made changes, who classified it, etc.) and reinforced the need to see not only the original memcon, but the edits that were made, the initial draft of it, people's notes about it, and even to acquire the original electronic recording of the call in question.
Thank you for explaining this in such compelling detail and highlighting potential violations of federal law along the way.
It's incredible to realize that what has been released is the *massaged*, *edited* version of the readout of the call, with final edits by the National Security Adviser!
That suggests that what occurred is far more damning than what we've seen so far, likely reinforces the quid pro quo that was so apparent, and may even showcase the mental instability, incoherence, and unfitness of the current occupant of the Oval Office.
115
Of course not. It's totally routine to hide all details of a normal, everyday call on highly secure servers. Trump and Zelensky were likely just discussing routine trade matters and needed to make sure that only a handful of people in the entire US could ever find out which trade matters.
11
@Randall, no, it's not routine at all.
1
What is clear is that the enablers around Trump need to step up and act according to their moral and ethics for the sake of the country in this fact finding process. Impeachment should be a bipartisan process. All enablers - Giuliani, White House lawyers, all those who have a hand to help him distort and hide any facts that undermines our democracy and the sanctity of the office of the President should step up for the sake of decency.
19
Mike Pence stands ready to sanctify the US presidency as never before.
" it would most likely have required a very senior White House official to direct its removal from that system and placement in the ultrasensitive system."
We must find out who was the person who did this. I am assuming the House impeachment process can. There are many rocks to turn over here and I hope we find out what is underneath all of them.
66
I'm guessing that the words "executive privilege" are about to become as prevalent in the news lexicon as "whistleblower" currently is.
21
@Jen B
Unlike Nixon, Trump is not shrew enough to properly invoke executive privilege. Nixon was very closed mouth about everything; Trump can't wait to get on Twitter to make a tweet, even if it is against his own interest.
4
"Someone suddenly fired a shot—it’s uncertain which side—and a melee ensued" -'The shot heard round the world' led to the creation of the United States of America.
The UkraineGate whistleblower shot carefully and gave it 'Deep Thought'. Now we may need to recreate the USA and the electoral process.
One simple heroic person doing their job pointed out the naked truth and dilemma we face confronting corruption in the executive branch. It is not known from which or any particular side. Doesn't matter.
Trump and his singular tirades are tiresome and not accomplishing anything for the good of the USA. Nothing gets done in Trump and McConnell's kingdom because everything is personal pandering and partisan.
I hope the press gives the most press to 2020 candidates and the issues we need to care about. Democratic candidates have excellent plans, but they need to work together too and do better as a team.
35
I appreciate Mr. Pascal explaining the policies and procedures, of how a presidential phone call, to a foreign leader, is handled. Thus, if procedures are followed, during the Obama Administration, are still followed today, then indeed we have a problem. A blatant attempt, by the Trump Administration, to alter and hide information. Effectively doing, what Nixon did, instead of an 18 minute gap, we have an edited document with some possible critical information removed.
While Congress is performing their hearings, it may be required to have the White House produced the unedited transcript. Also, call various partied to testify on how the released transcript was edited.
It is starting to look like, not only did Trump asked a foreign government to interfere in the 2020 election, and try t o cover it up; but, also could be complicit in altering an official document to hide additional crimes.
The quicksand, that Trump fell into, is causing him to sink fast.
151
There have been some references to voice recognition software. Is this technology in fact employed as a matter of course? If so, in real time or against a recording? If the latter, that of course begs the question of what happens to the recordings once the package is prepared.
7
"Did the Trump White House Mishandle the Ukraine Call Memo?"
Of course it did because the entire focus for all White House staff is to keep the American people from knowing what Trump does (or does not do) in his official capacity as president. However, laws exist to ensure a modicum of transparency for any presidential administration, which puts the actions of Trump's White House in conflict with these laws. Fortunately, over classifying a memo to hide its contents leaves a paper trail, so we will know who made this decision. Of course, those persons will lie about their actions; just one more crime.
139
@Padfoot
Is that why WH staff leaked numerous conversations he had with Mexico and Australia? Because they want to keep the American people from knowing what Trump does?
When everything leaks for no good reason, of course they're going to put more safeguards on information. It would be irresponsible not to.
2
@Viv
Your argument would have merit if all subsequent “memcoms” were moved from the classified server to the “ultra sensitive” system, but they weren’t.
24
@Viv
Maybe if Trump could just have normal conversations with foreign leaders this wouldn't be a problem. The American people have the right to know if their president is trashing our relations with other countries, which by the way is where we are now with almost every one of our allies.
39
A detailed and thought-provoking description of the procedure for handling such presidential communications. It suggests strongly that standard operating procedures were abrogated and that deviation from them--as well as the actual substance of the conversation--led to the whistle-blower's decision to act. If the genuine original documents still exist, they should be furnished to Congress. If they no longer exist, one has to wonder what the president's men are concealing, since surely something is being concealed if that is the case.
50
@RBT this is indeed detailed and thought-provoking. I'm worried for both sides. Especially if Pelosi and team didn't do enough due diligence. I hope the full transcripts do exist and fully back up the current claim.
6
@Meredith
What is due diligence? an investigation. Which is what Pelosi and her team must do now.
5
If I were in the administration and knew the transcript didn’t add anything to the information already out, I might still stonewall and hold back and wait until the Democrats spent a month talking about it and what it might contain and subpoenaing it. Then when it was finally produced, the administration could say “See. The Dems are screaming about nothing. This is just another witch-hunt. They have been trying to undo the election from day one. Blah blah blah.”
Doesn’t matter so much how damning the memcon was. The last word would be about the Dems wanting to dig up dirt that wasn’t there. We have seen it before with the Mueller report. Trump can spend the time before the release framing the issue so that he can say he was finally exonerated when the document produced didn’t show that he was guilty of the issue as he framed it, regardless of what else he WAS guilty of. He knows how to play this game. The Dems have to learn not to take his bait.
1
It strikes me that the absence of an audio recording of the conversation enables a Trump technical denial as to what was actually said.
12
@Dean Harris - Yes, what"s up with not using an audioi recording and then transcribing that - verbatim - to paper. Am I missing something here?
12
The content of the conversation should be given to Congress in its entirety with our delay. Otherwise I fail to see what is meant by checks and balances? Congress should be trusted with anything that the White House is trusted for.
54
@Blunt
Not all members of Congress are treated equally among themselves with access to information. That's why different levels of security clearances exist.
@Viv Members of Congress are not required to have security clearances as per Constitutional law. Pres, VP and Congress can view any level of intel without a clearance.
6
Why should that be the case logically? Do some members of congress get voted in the institution by different “level” voters? As far as I am concerned all congresspeople are equal in the eyes of voters. I don’t see how else we have “one person one vote” mean anything in a democracy. Don’t you agree?
5
Considering the enormity of impeachment proceedings, everyone wondered if the transcript was accurate or how accurate it was. The question is how can we find out?
79
@JJ Flowers
We know that it is accurate because it was the WH that released it, saying it was a "perfect conversation." The president himself authenticated it.
27
@EJ
At this point I honestly can't tell if this is satire. If this was the fox news comments section I would know it is sincere.
25
@EJ Yuk Yuk!
4