How ironic that this is printed in a newspaper that is banned on the mainland.
14
five demands not one less
9
Sorry Ms Lam (but I know you're NOT reading the comments - unless to cherry pick the few positive ones towards yourself) but you're an embarrassment, have no mandate and by your own admission, gave up and would like to run away to the English countryside. I suppose the CCP might have your children and husband working in mainland China as an "incentive" for you to stay on, however.
What floors me is how every single CENO (Chief Executive in Name Only) in HK has gone into office with reasonably positive public approval (except perhaps CY Leung) and so quickly SQUANDERED it all through total ineptitude, hubris and continually coddling the super rich holders of all the monopolies there?
Oh yeah...you've made the formerly respected HK Police into a thuggish mainland Chinese form of oppressive gangsters. It's on YOU...that's undeniable.
5
I support this well though out editorial whole heartedly. And I think Mdm Lam is bending backwards to accommodate the rioters. To those who disagree I ask you: if "peaceful protesters" were lobbing Molotov cocktails in the streets at policemen, would you pine for the rule of law?
3
Mrs. Lam your so-called dialogue is not something you should do now. It is too late and you should have done it 3 months ago. After all these blood wash events, the only thing can save this place is the TRUTH but not some kind of lies you and your team are making up day by day. Independent investigation on police by pursuable 3rd party is a must and no other choice, especially when police being suspected they have killed many people. The 5 requests from the people must be fulfilled otherwise it’s not gonna end.
3
Maybe you are listening but it would be better if you took out your earplugs. In any case it doesn't matter since your masters in Beijing are wearing headphones repeatedly listening to an audio recording of Machiavelli's The Prince.
4
It is ridiculous. Over the past 3 months, we have told you what we want. But you keeps things unresolved and your attitude towards citizens is extremely arrogant. Now, you are just hiding behind the police force and encourage police force to exercise their brutality. 5 demands are clear and loud. Why we still need a dialogue? It just a PR show to people! You don’t positively response to the remaining 4 demands mean you are just a puppet of CCP. Without the genuine universal suffrage, Hong Kong people won’t change the system, this will happen again! Because you are not representing general public in Hong Kong. You are just representing CCP and election committee consisting one thousand something people who elected you in CE election!! We see things clearly!
6
Give Carrie Lam a break. Sure, she made a bad mistake in trying to rush an extradition bill through HK’s Legco (legislature). But in the US Congress, bills are introduced and withdrawn all the time. Thank goodness, nobody here goes out and riots and throws Molotov cocktails over withdrawn bills. Because the extradition bill has been withdrawn, corrupt officials from China and and other Asian countries will continue to live the good life in the SAR, knowing they can’t be sent back to Face justice in their home countries. And In the US, thousands of miles from where rioters are destroying HK, it’s so easy to be sanctimonious and support these so-called ‘freedom fighters’, However, read the comment section of HK’s English language daily, South China Morning Post, and you can see nearly 90% of respondents despise the rioters. They’re ring-side and feel the destruction these black shirt thugs are bringing to their beloved HK and its economy.
Dear Ms Lam,
What is happening is not so new in the former British Empire; you should take example of other such revolutions, events and so on elsewhere. Don't be afraid to call in reinforcements when you need them; HK is insufficient to do the job. Now, very sadly, the HK Asians are unfortunately impregnated with the British and American culture; the notion that they would respond and feel like mainland Chinese is not based on the facts. Sadly this is what the legacy of 150 years of occupation by the British has done. So this is why they need special attention. That is precisely the reason for One Country Two Systems. And in fact, it has been a great success until very recently. Your idea for an amendment to the immigration act was good and in fact may need to be revisited in the future. Your main issue now is anarchist violence. The anarchists are based in the student unions of a few universities (HKU, HBU, ...) . Your know where they are and who they are. These are no poetic liberal democratic heroes Ms Lam. They are just bandits. You will need to get the police to go raid and arrest these anarchists in the planning stage of mayhem where they organize -the student unions- otherwise you will never win this. Anarchy will go on forever. Also, be ready to call in reinforcements from the mainland. You need the armored police to come in and relieve the police from crowd control duties, so they can concentrate on actual police work: arrest the anarchists where they hide.
I applaud Ms. Lam for coming forward and bringing her perspective directly to the American public. It’s a shame that so many in our society have such strong opinions about the situation in Hong Kong yet know so little about the city’s political environment. Having spent much time in the city over the years, I believe Ms. Lam truly cares about the welfare of Hong Kongers. I think she is trying to open up and liberalize the city, but is being held back by the powers in Beijing. While she is a largely unelected beurecrat, she is at least sympathetic to protesters concerns. That is certainly much better than the alternative should she be replaced by a hard line figure.
15
@Jerome If she was actually sympathetic to their concerns, she would have made concessions months ago. This crisis is her doing. Her intransigence has allowed the situation to escalate to the point it has reached.
The difference between her and a hard line figure seems to be that she hasn’t asked the mainland to send in the army yet.
24
wasn't it Carrie Lam who said that the protesters didn't mind the unrest because they has no stake in society ? wasn't it CL who said she did not see any wrong doing on the police's part? To say her hands are somewhat tied is fair, to say that she is not doing a horrendous job within her power is stretching, regardless of her intention
4
Carrie Lam has more class than all of the haters on this comment board put together.
you are not listening, more like acting, may be on your own, probably not.
Oh please. This has been going on for 3 months and you plan to "listen" now? It's way too late. Too much has happened and the havoc is irrevocable. You are the sole cause of the violence that you so condemn.
2
HK has no more future because of Lam and her best teammates, HK Police Force. HK is losing the freedom and human rights.
#StandwithHK#FightforFreedom
1
I believe HK people have the right to peaceful demonstration. But the use of masks, the fights, the fire bombs and the destruction of public properties were over the board. What mean do these rioters wish to achieve? The whole world are waiting to see when China will march PLA to HK streets and declare marshal law. That is the ultimate motive of the people behind these demonstrations. The young people of HK are being used.
Hong Kong doesn’t need “reconciliation”.
It needs a free election, free from interference by the CCP.
Without that, nothing else matters.
1
I watched the first town hall meeting of Carrie Lam live online today. As I placed little hope on it, I thus have not been disappointed of the meeting. In a modern society, trust is the most important currency. No trust, then no deal. Today Carrie Lam and her cabinet of officials have completely lost all trust in the eyes of Hong Kong residents. The government therefore is not qualified to offer any deal to them. Let alone they would accept her offer of any deal. As a result, the town hall meeting is merely a political show and an insult to the intelligence of Hong Kong residents. It will not solve any problem, but to exerabate public anger. Such is the current situation of Hong Kong in my humble opinion.
4
"For the time being, however, I am in listening mode for my first community dialogue session. No doubt, I will receive some harsh criticism. But I also hope to receive constructive suggestions to help this government meet the public’s expectations for a more inclusive and fairer Hong Kong."
OMG, what self-serving prattle. The thrust of Ms. Lam's missive is that the protesters should give up, be quiet and listen to what Beijing will do for them if they behave.
2
One of the ugliest ramifications of the extradition treaty was that it would invite Hong Kong residents to be tortured in Mainland China. The first time I read about "Carrie Lam" and extradition to china in one sentence, the most prominent thing going through my thoughts was: Carrie Lam is rolling out the welcome mat from Hong Kong to the torture chambers in China. She revealed her thinking then, a kind of thinking that doesn't change over a short amount of time. I saw the title of this article and its writer and didn't bother to read it. I will not give time to any supporter of torture.
2
To put this article in the context: According to the latest survey in HK dated 24-September carried out by the HK Public Opinion Research Institute, Mrs Lam’s net popularity is -57%, the net satisfaction of the HKSAR government is -63%, both at their historical lows since the handover of HK to China. A whopping 49% of citizens surveyed rated the performance of Carrie Lam 0 marks out of 100. By the way, under Mrs Lam’s direction and with the exercises of brutal forces against protesters, the popularity of the HK Police has also reached its historical low.
Readers of this article are therefore advised to read it with a pinch of salt, if not with an outright regard of it being a piece of PR from a government that has no credibility amongst its fellow citizens.
6
Carrie Lam who fell into this crisis by refusing to listen claims that she can.
4
Don't trust Carrie Lam. Hong Kong become a police state now. Police arrest young people without any reason, banned all protest march and attack the protesters in Hong Kong everyday.
6
I wonder about the timing of this Op-Ed piece. It comes out just when The Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act is about to go to the US Congress floor for a vote. Seems it is intended to sway public opinion so the bill won’t be passed.
It is a public relation exercise that offers no concrete solution to the current crisis. Ms Lam said she is “listening,” well, we are way pass the listening phase now.
Just 3 days ago the Times published an exposé on how some of the HK police use unlawful and violent tactics. So why is this Op-Ed piece contains nothing to address this police issue?
The Op-Ed piece talks about “…access to affordable housing..” true, housing is a big problem but it has been here in HK for many decades already. It is not the thing that triggered this level of public anger.
The article then talks about money – the financial markets, exchange rate, fiscal reserves. She also throws in things that are tangential at best: world-class sports park, mega cultural district, even Olympic team. The entire thing reads like a pitch to attract foreign investment, instead of a plan with concrete steps to offer a compromise, a political solution.
The most critical issue now is that the Hong Kong Police, once seen as Asia’s finest, is viewed by many as lawless as gangsters. If the public trust with the law enforcement is eroded then so goes the rule-of-law, and the rule-of-law is very important, so says in Ms Lam’s piece. So, Ms Lam, what is your plan to restore this trust?
4
It seems kind of ironic to me that Ms. Lam chose to publish this in a newspaper that is forbidden in China. If the NY Times is such an egregious publication, why use it as a megaphone? Did Xi Jinping approve (and if so, what does that say about the situation)? I don't blame Hong Kongers for protesting and resorting to violence - Beijing won't listen to them and doesn't care about them. China views it's citizens as tools, not human beings, and the people of Hong Kong know it.
Why would people who have experienced a free society want to become part of the most authoritarian, totalitarian country on earth? I'm not sure it's possible to have freedom in one city while the rest of a country suffers under a blanket of social and political oppression.
3
1. Carry Lam did not mention the Police excessive use of force on the protestors
2. She did not mention she insisted not to setup an independent investigation committee to investigate the whole crisis
3. She did not mention she lied about the extradition bill would be able to help the murder victims to send the suspected murderer to Taiwan for trial. She is not even mentioning anything about this murder case anymore
4. Her insensitive to the voice of Hong Kongers .. 2 millions people coming out with 5 demands and she only agreed to 1 demands when many youths were beaten up by police and not until US is about to introduce the Hong Kong democracy and human rights bill where she would be most likely be sanctioned
5. She has eroded the freedom and democracy of Hong Kongers for more many decades as senior government officials ..
6. Her recent support rating is 24.9 and 75.1 of Hong Kongers do not support her and she once said she would resign if she did not have the support of Hong Kong majority .. but she now insists that she needs to stay ..
if she is in a democratic society, she would be voted out many any years ago ...
3
Behind the facade, this piece is only a Public Relations exercise. In truth, this is a wild dream of a lame duck waiting to be roasted by her Beijing chef. Hong Kong will never be the same in the negative sense.
3
The people of HK have spoken loud and clear- they want you gone, Carrie Lam. They want free and fair elections. They want the police held responsible for their abuse, which has been recorded- for example entering subway cars and beating people.
2
On one hand, Carrie proposes rational and civilised conversation with protestors. On the other hand, she orders the police to crack down even harder on the protestors. She is now arranging for community talks with the HK people but orders police to be armed with guns and have tear gases ready at the venue. Haven't the demands been clear enough? Political PR shows satisfy no one anymore and you still pretend to be open to suggestions while behind the HK people, you do everything you can to destroy and jeopardize the movement for your own political gain of favouring communist China. Yes, Hong Kong has a future, if and only if Carrie Lam and communist China get their filthy hands off Hong Kong. Five demands, not one less! Stand with Hong Kong - Fight for Freedom!
5
Until the people are the iron authority HK is doomed we knew that many years ago.
3
Dear Ms. Lam, You have been in the listening tour for many, many years. You should have heard a lot of grievances from Hongkongers. How much more listening do you need to do before you will act? The time to act is now, not 6 months from now, not a year, and certainly not in the future. Fix the housing problem, narrow the income disparity, give the youths some hope for their future, you will be a beloved CE.
1
Carries Lam simply ignored what all the protesters asking for. They were requesting for their 5 demands and not 1 less. Conversation with no actual actions will be useless. It cannot stop people's rage. Facing off against the police brutality, what you did was just standing up with YOUR police officers who brutally hurt HK citizens. It is ridiculous that, your ExCo members didn't believe protesters will stop their protest until the Gov responded all of their 5 demands. Are they a joke to you? 5 demands, that's all what they asked for, why don't just give them what they want.
Does Hong Kong have a future? Nah, as long as it became a police state.
5 demands, not 1 less.
3
In the three months since Mrs. Lam repeatedly tried to push through her amendments, the opposition has been repeating five demands. She would do well to respond positively to these demands, instead of brushing them aside with cavalier arrogance, or public relations stunts. For example, one of the demands, the establishment of an independent commission of inquiry, is overwhelmingly popular, with one reputable poll showing 80% support [1]. Another demand, genuine elections that reflect the wishes of the Hong Kong people, has long been promised before 1997 [2] and written in the Basic Law [3]. She can start by creating a respected and representative committee, with a meaningful timetable. Many solutions are possible, some even within the framework of the fateful 8/31 decision by Beijing. For example, the nomination committee could choose from a list of candidates ranked by an open primary, even adding a candidate not from the top of the primary.
Hong Kong is sick - incentives of the governing are not aligned with the benefits of the governed. Until that is corrected, students will continue to fight for a more just society, and folks will continue to move abroad, or at least send their children and money away.
[1] http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking-news.php?id=132404&sid=4
[2] https://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm - section 2.4[3] https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/pda/en/basiclawtext/chapter_4.html - article 45
1
How Carrie Lam caused the apocalypse in HK
- She ignored the advice from pro-democratic Legco members for not proceeding the extradition bill in May19 and Jun19
- She didn’t fully withdraw the extradition bill when 1 to 2 million (>1/5 of the total population) came out for a peaceful protest
- She turned a blind eye to excessive use of force and arrest by HK police
You now came to tell the world that HK has ‘rule of law’. From the day that your government decided to forbid people to be elected due to political stance, the ‘rule of law’ has become non-existent in HK.
Dialogue session is a PR show. We, the hongkongers, made it clear in the protest - ‘Five Demands, Not One Less’.
No one wants to live in violence but you, as a political leader, turned a deaf ear to us for so long that we had no other options. NYT readers, hope all of you are wise enough to see what trick this government is playing to fool the world.
God bless HK!
This op-ed is a farce, no doubt edited by the Chinese Government prior to Ms. Lam submitting it to the NYT. While Ms. Lam addresses the One Country, Two Systems paradigm, she is completely silent on the way in which the protesters have been treated by Police and more importantly, the disinformation strategy within mainland China to paint the protesters as hooligans bent on usurping China's rule rather than their real purpose - to maintain the freedom that was promised to them under the rules of the handover between Britain and China. Make no mistake, the Hong Kong protesters need our support and we should never look away from this critical fight to preserve democracy in the face of communism.
2
Ms. Lam states the necessity for adhering to One Country, Two Systems, but then goes on to back off of the "Two Systems" part by saying..."Yet it needs to be leveraged further to make the best use of the “Two Systems” within the “One Country”. No, that wasn't the deal; BOTH were agreed upon in the internationally-registered (with the UN) One Country, Two Systems agreement. And she shows no understanding or realization whatsoever that the Communist Party of China's refusing to adhere to it, since 2014, culminating in the ultimate breakage with the deportation bill, was the final straw. She's avoiding the entire issue.
1
When speaking of "fiscal reserves" and planned infrastructure projects, not ONCE did she mention a large new residential area to be built to alleviate the suffering of many Hong Kongers living in shoebox sized apartments and struggling to make ends meet.
The so-called communication session is just a show. Carrie Lam never listens to Hongkongers and Hongkong Police keep torturing innocent Hongkong citizens.
We really need UN to send the Peacekeeping Force to Hongkong to protect us.
1
Yes, Carrie Lam can continue to use the tactic of just spinning the issues to her likes and turn an arrogant deaf ear to the people.
If this government has some decency and respect to her people, it shouldn’t have taken months and after turning this beauty city into a complete havoc before agreeing to withdrawing the extradition bill.
If this government has some decency and respect to her people, the police wouldn’t have ganged up with triad society members and allowed hundreds of mobsters to randomly attack people on the street on July 21.
If this government has some decency and respect to her people, there shouldn’t be these abhorrent scene of police raiding into railway station using absolute horrible violence randomly attacked & arrested commuters in the cars.
This is not the Hong Kong before 2019, and if unchecked, this is Oceania 1984 soon.
2
Hong Kong is the only Chinese city with free access to information (Taiwanese cities don’t count as they are not part of China).
And what Hong Hongers demonstrate is that when Chinese people have unfettered access to information rather than Communist propaganda, they want freedom and hate the Communist regime.
1
Education is the cause of the riots and solution. Many private or religious HK schools are at core so against pro-atheism China government that they teach students how bad Chinese are and how bad Chinese government are. Young men have grown up resenting motherland who have taken care of them. Without water resources and affordable fresh produce, HK wouldnt have been so affulent.
Hong Kong's future: Beijing rule. Most young Hongkongers realize China's influence is too great to ever hope for the political reforms necessary to safeguard their last shreds of liberty, and regardless, 2047 looms. To young Hongkongers: escape while you can, for your sake and your children's sake. China will never allow Hong Kong independence, and will see Hongkongers killed and imprisoned en masse if necessary. It makes me sick to image myself as a Hongkonger without the means to emigrate, as it seems the only options are accept life under tyranny, or death under PLA jackboots. A heartbreaking and intractable tragedy.
The people of Hong Kong should be free to choose their representatives, even if the person they choose has openly protested against Beiging-friendly policies. As it stands, Hong Kongers don't seem to believe Beiging respects their wishes.
Ms Carrie, from day 1 to today, you remain disconnecting to HK general public. the raise of extradition bill and your gesture and meaningless strategy do make HKer angry.
However, the continuous and uncontrolled police violence, and the unfair prosecution to peaceful public, and the protection to those pro-government guys given who have obvious break the law, and the lack of explanation of key social concerned issues, like the events in 721 Yuen Long and 831 Prince Edward, all are incurred bu Ms Carrie leadership team, and sad that none is addressed, investigated, and oversight by Ms Carrie.
Ms Carrie had said, she has nothing, but only the 30k HK police. Hence, how come she can fairly represent HK, represent HKer, and tell the truth and actual happening in HK to the world on behalf HK.
5 demands, not 1 less.
3
i see nothing here about the police or electing their own leaders.ms. lim isn't interested in communicating with anyone for sure. we koreans were always protesting for the last 40 years or so and weekend protests of some interest group are a fixture. thats called democracy. its messy and its a lot of work but its what we need to uphold our dignity as human beings. keep up the good work hk.its going to take a forever but its worth it
2
I am from HK. I am 24 years old and I spent all of my life so far here.
Starting from 9 of June, Lam pushes the extradition bill, millions of HK people (more than one-forth of the population) go down to street, some of them are even wheelchair users. We have listed out our 5 demands: 1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill, 2. A commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality, 3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters”, 4. Amnesty for arrested protesters, 5. Dual universal suffrage, meaning for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive.
Lam has chosen not to respond to any of the 5 demands, until early Sept, 3 months later, she has withdrawn the bill. Most HK citizens think this is "too late, too little". In the meantime, over 1000 protesters are indiscriminate arrested by police for rally, most of them are at their twenties. Many press has records HK police used excessive force to cause severe wound to arrested protesters, and many of them have their bone broken.
Our demand has not changed. Lam if you are really willing to listen, the 5 demands are there. According to survey, the Commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality has over 80% of supporter among the HK population (include pro-Beijing and pro-democracy parties). Lam if you are really trying to solve the problem, please take action ASAP. You have already spent over 100 days to listen, it's time to ACTION.
75
@Winnie Cheung
We support you. Your struggle is ours also. Please don't lose heart.
2
The 5 demands are quite clear already, and I think all of them could not be mutually exclusive.
It is so ridiculous that Carrie is trying to turn on “listening mode” when the protests have been held for 4 months with a lot of people injured. She talks about starting conversation with the public. However, I do not think there is any change on the situation, because 5 demands are still 5 demands. The future of Hong Kong would be dead with these liars controlling everything.
2
Hong Kong already HAS a great reputation as an international city, in case you missed that, Ms. Lam.
You and your mainland masters are the ones destroying it.
3
Business, business, business. The market. The economy. That is all I’m seeing in Carrie Lam’s message. What about the smashed hopes of the people? Self-determination? Space in which to raise children? Do these things not matter? Who are you, Hong Kong?
Why, after nearly a third of your population protested peacefully, did you do nothing for months? Actions speak louder than words, Ms. Lam.
2
"Yes, Hong Kong Does Have a Future"
If Ms Lam has her way, Hong Kong's future will be under the jack boot of brutal dictatorship. Mr Xi's China has no compunction about kidnapping and a total surveillance state for the citizens. They are even conducting forced organ harvesting, What a future...
2
Ms. Lam is bucking a local and world-wide misconception that Hong Kong is free and independent of China. It is not, and is likely never to be.
Hong Kong, as a British colony, served as the commercial front door to China. Now, it is a special administrative district of China. It has always lived and thrived by exploiting its geographic and cultural ties to China.
For a hundred years Hong Kong was coddled by a benevolent colonial power that ruled with a light, barely visible touch. The city became a great and prosperous financial center. Now, it appears that Hong Kong is spoiled for disciplined self-rule and ungrateful for the favorable treatment of its new benefactor.
The protesters and rioters are demonstrating their contempt for China, not their hopes for Hong Kong. They are doing irreparable damage to their city and their own livelihood. Hong Kong's prosperity is based on financial manipulation. Financiers will not long tolerate the instability of strife-filled streets and closed airports. Shanghai is more stable and welcoming.
1
@AynRant
You have hit the nail on the head. Many HK residents immigrated to HK from the Mainland during the cultural revolution. They have tasted bitterness and have never forgiven the CCP. They passed on this bitterness and fear of the CCP to their offsprings. I know because most of my father's cousins are this way, whereas my father left during the Japanese occupation and has never forgiven the Japanese. While the Mainland Chinese who stayed behind got indoctrinated on the one hand, but also genuinely benefited from the rule of the CCP in the past 40 odd years, HK residents saw their own living standard being eroded during the same period. This has created a wide gulf in terms of perception of and support for the Chinese government. This difference is not something that can easily be bridged. Before the demonstrations and riots, there were already "driving out the locusts" activities for several years, during which masked and black clad young activists descended on tourist districts and districts populated by migrants to harass and insult Mainlanders. This is much the same phenomenon exploited by Trump against Latin American immigrants.
@AynRant You deliberately omit the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law. Your fallacy is that Hong Kong did not have democracy under British rule, yes, but that shouldn't be an argument for not having democracy now. Time has changed. Also, you are mislead by the Chinese propaganda apparatus that the protest is against China. No, Hong Kongers just want to mind their own business first, thank you very much.
As someone born and brought up in HK, and having lived here for most of my life the events of the past few months have shaken my belief in Hong Kong’s ongoing position as “Asia’s World City”.
Hong Kong - it’s very existence, it’s past and future prosperity relies upon a strong relationship with China - this fact cannot be escaped. Throughout the years that relationship has changed and certainly HK has become more intertwined with China since 1997.
HK is not the city I once knew - the pollution, the cost of living, the social and economic inequality, the lack of vision from our government, the grip of our tycoon overlords have all become worse since 1997 - this is also a fact.
However before we look towards failing democracies to come to our rescue let us look at ourselves in the mirror. Both the radical protestors and the police have equal blame in the ongoing crisis. Carrie Lam has already killed the bill which instigated the crisis - the protestors now have to give up something as well in order to have a meaningful outcome.
Destroying the tourism economy puts hundreds of thousands of jobs at risk, boycotting and vandalizing business will only add to that pain. Destroying the infrastructure and disrupting transportation networks only makes like harder for everyone including your supporters.
The government has given an inch. It’s time for the genuine protestors to take one small step towards reconciliation and disavow those radicals who have sullied the movement.
28
@Paul
The protestors now have to give up something as well in order to have a meaningful outcome, but the Police is beating us everyday without giving up anything. Please note that the government is not our Boss. Tax player is their Boss.
8
@Paul
Hong Kong people expressed their opinion many times. Over 10 thousand people on March, over 100 thousand on April, one million on June 9, two million on June 15. Does Carrie Lam willing to listen? No, she didn't.
We have already give her an inch, a feet, a yard but receiving nothing except being beaten by the police.
On July 20, a lot of Trial gangster under the supervision of HK police injured a lot of people in Yuen Long railway station. Some of the injured victims are not even protesters but just ordinary passengers.
On August 31, a lot of fierce police rushed into the train compartments at Prince Edward station and attacked both protesters and ordinary passengers. It is a typical case of terrorism under international standard. Hong Kong people is still checking wherther there are somebodies being killed at that day without anounced to the public.
Having done such a lot of criminal attacks to the people, I don't think a late kill of the bill is still the main concern anymore! That's why we have 5 demands. Remember, the bill is just one of five demands only. The police are still attacking Hong Kong people nearly everyday.
3
And the best way to understand what the police did/didn’t do wrong is to set up an independent investigation into police actions since the start of the protests.
Both the government and the police force are adamantly against this.
2
Obviously this is Carrie Lam's pathetic attempt of PR, targeting readers who have partial knowledge of what's going on in Hong Kong.
Infrastructure plans to help Hong Kong - who cares about a third runway when we have people who toll day in and day out and still can't afford to rent a decent apt? (not to mention buy)
rule of law - what do you call it when a teenage was arrested with theft because he carried two Octopus card on him? how about a 13 year old was arrested because she did not have her ID with her? (by law, HKgers under the age of 15 are not required to carry their IDs with them.) Or when the police covered the mouth of a man when he tried to yell his personal info to press / bystanders?
Hong Kong is what it is not because of its buildings and infrastructure. It is what is is because of the people. And she is literally destroying a generation of us.
2
Universal suffrage promised in the joint declaration between British and Chinese gives Hong Kong future. However, Mrs Lam was elected by only 777 out of 1,200 people's committee that most members were appointed by China. She does not represent most people of Hong Kong. She and her government work to consolidate the power of the Chinese Communist party.
The future of Hong Kong will be established through the execution of universal suffrage of the chief executive and the legislative council members. This political reform guarantees autonomy, democracy, and freedom to the people of Hong Kong. Every one is equal under the law, people are treated as innocent unless being sentenced by the court. Leaders have no special power. No more state terrorism and beating up of people by the police and the gangsters. All business activities are fair trade and protected by commercial law. Bribery and corruption will be reported and penalised. Hong Kong will then be prosperous. Individual life style is to be respected. Every one enjoys freedom of speech, human rights, and religious beliefs. Accommodation and development of multi-cultural and pluralistic-social practices without discrimination of any kind. People are encouraged to dream and work hard in developing their talents. The people's unique individuality is respected, so they can be free from fear of being and taking care of themselves.
Actualisation of genuine universal suffrage promises bright and optimistic future to Hong Kong.
1
Mrs. Lam is in the unfortunate position of having to carry out policies that she can't make herself. It's difficult to see how she can satisfy President Xi and the protestors at the same time, as the different parties have entirely different visions of how society ought to function.
13
@Stephen Merritt
She knows her position very well before she join the Chief Executive election. It is her own choice!
4
Resign, Carrie. We, and the people of Hong Kong, tire of you.
1
Nowhere did she mentioned police brutality, nor why CCTV of 8/31 MTR riot was not released.
1
Ms. Lam, I am very sympathetic to you and the people of Hong Kong. You are caught between a lawless overlord in Beijing and a freedom-loving mass in Hong Kong. I sincerely hope that you can work out something that will satisfy both, if that is possible at all. I always wonder why Beijing stations so many troops in Hong Kong. I am not aware that any foreign nation has any plan to invade and take over Hong Kong. Are you? If not, why are the PLA troops in Hong Kong?
Hold the police accountable, resign, and pardon the arrested protesters and then HK will have a future.
14
It is good that NYTimes has finally permitted a different perspective. It would be even better if they had apologised for spreading a biased perspective, but history will make this point.
It is easy to second-guess leaders, but it must be noted that Ms Lam inherited a difficult situation that has been made much worse by a biased press. I am thankful that she is prepared to soldier on in such a thankless role.
I am glad to see her emphasising the rule of law, because this is what these lawless rioters are flaunting and why this proves their deep hypocrisy when they claim to to want democracy and yet are unwilling to fulfil the responsibilities that a civil society requires.
Hong Kong has a future, but not as a democratic city in which locals and foreigners can have confidence in the rule of law.
As Chinese influence grows ever stronger the city will slowly succumb to Chinese rule and, certainly by 2047 but I suspect long before, the city will be unlivable for many expats.
For those who have tasted democracy, one party communist rule will never be acceptable. I applaud the Hong Kong protesters but their fight will, sadly, inevitably fail.
11
I’d say it is at least as likely that CCP will be history by 2047. USSR lasted 69 years and PRC is 70 next month. Xi is looking weak and stumbling these days. Also, it’s becoming clear that the only people who can tolerate CCP rule are mainland Han.
4
Ms. Carrie Lam, why don't you just inform our widely misinformed readers first that Hong Kong is not a 'country'. It is a small territory. It is a part of China that was stolen at gunpoint by the British at the end of the Opium Wars. You know, that time when the British East India Company waged war for years against the Chinese to force them to take opium so they wouldn't have to pay for Chinese tea with actual money? Any concept of a separate 'Hong Kong identity' that has been instilled in the Chinese people there has been done by the British for the purposes of divide and rule. The people of HK are not a separate nation and have no reason to demand an independent state. Moreover, what do we imagine such a state would be if it came into existence? Just what it was before - a base for British or US armed forces from which to threaten China and control the seas.
1
Over a month ago I received an email from Cathay Pacific. the flagship carrier of Hong Kong, with great offers to some Asian countries. With all that is going on in Hong Kong and the problems at the airport, from time to time, I decided to fly on Philippine Airlines directly to Manila, Philippines. I have traveled on Cathay Pacific several times so they send me offers at times. But in the news I saw where people had to get out of taxis and walk with their luggage to the airport. That is really reprehensible.
I think mainland China should have respected the "two systems one country" system. Apparently they have "kidnapped" people who wrote books or articles about the CP on the mainland then ended up on the mainland without any hearing in Hong Kong. So it's hard not to see why some people fear that Hong Kong leadership is not really in charge. If China had respected the 50-year Hong Kong go-it-alone policy then we might not be having this conversation. But the constant encroachment on Hong Kong's civil liberties only 22 years after the hand over by the British is unsettling. Also it seems Ms. Lam has to report to mainland China instead of having an internal system in Hong Kong agreed upon by the departing British colonial agreement. As long as Ms. Lam has to consult with the mainland there will be unsettling issues popping up.
This is a good starting point for a conversation, discussion and some negotiation. Today we are too quick to rubbish any thought or idea until it fully conforms to our own thinking. The world at large is getting more and more extreme and it is super important that we relinquish extreme postures and get to some middle ground. This is in all our interests.
I no longer live in Hong Kong, but we have previously lived there for over a decade and we still love this city as our home. It really pains me to see the recent events and I only hope that things get back to normal. Everyone stands to gain if normalcy returns and Hong Kong gets back to its once glorious status as a world city.
But for that to happen we need either side to give up hardened stances and work for a compromise. There would be no winners if everyone sticks to their hardened positions.
I am sorry but you are mistaken. she has a consistent track record of having a dialogue with the opposition and making empty promises only to back track on every one of them later when public wrath dies.
not many people in HK actually trust her
1
Point is, nobody wants you as an interlocutor. People see you, quite rightly, as representing Peking. That is why they want you out of office. People don't want to be behind the Chinese wall on the internet. People want to see their concerns dealt with substantively, not accepted or discarded to the extent they coincide with Chinese policy for the territory. That is why they want universal suffrage and local elections. The only thing you can contribute to the resolution of these problems is your resignation.
9
Hong Kong has NO future under her poor and inhuman management. She empowers Hong Kong Police to suppress the voices of HK citizens and protesters violently and inhumanly . Hong Kong now becomes a POLICE STATE, the Police controls all public facilities and infrastructures especially the mass transit system, their actions are uncontrollable and override all code of conduct, law and conscience especially after Carrie Lam said ‘ Apart from the police, I have nothing’. Furthermore, they requested the government to pay massive OT allowances to them as well as unreasonable overseas education allowances and housing allowances to their family members as a REWARD to their "support and loyalty" to the government. Why HK people have to raise for such a GREEDY and CORRUPT police team??
6
You are absolutely right to stand by the principle that rioting and wanton destruction of properties should be punished. Imagine what would happen if protesters similarly stormed the White House or the parliament of any country, democratic or otherwise. To say that HK is a police state for dealing with violent protests is ... I'm not even sure what English word is appropriate.
Secondly, look at the storm that Trump stirred for inviting "foreign interference". Yet, some western commentators seems to think that it is ok for HK protesters to meet with US and european nations inviting them to intervene. Again, what English word is appropriate for this total lack of rational thinking?
HK people enjoyed the most freedom imaginable, with only the exception that they can't elect the entire slate of representatives.
Take heart, sexist this may sound, if you are a male, western writers would have tore into you mercilessly.
Finally, I sincerely hope that you will take this opportunity to leverage the protests, take on the property tycoons and provide for your people.
Take care. You have a long road ahead.
4
After over 1500 people were arrested, over 150 people were charged (some even were charged by riots but with no evidence), thousands of people were injured by police by the triad gangs (hired by the government), 3 protestors were permanent blinded shot by police, 9 protestors committed suicide die to this extradittion law.
All of these could avoid if our fellow chief ex withdraw the bill after 9/6 or 12/6. And now, every night we watched the TV live we saw how our police force treat hk citizens. Our government made hk became a police state. The police can beat, can torture, can arrest anyone that they dont like.
Hkers have no way to get back. In these months we realised our government is completely not servicing our city but beijing only. We realised the police is no longer protecting citizens, but only treat us as an OBJECT.
Can we get back to a normal live just like before 9/6? No way, unless we fight for all the five demands. And one more personally, DISBAND the hk police force, we do not need this corrupt team for HK.
6
It is ridiculous that she talked about the "rule of law" while omitting police brutality since 12 July. There was police brutality in every single protest, there were extremely biased law enforcement and accusation.
In principle, the most fundamental concept in the rule of law is the universality. All those people who were suspected to violate the law should be judged in the court. What we have seen in these 3 months are extremely biased law enforcement and accusation. At first, protesters who throw bricks were charged as rioters; later on, people who just passed by the area got arrested and charged unlawful assembly and badly beaten by police, with severe head/body damages. Not to mention the police violate the law, again and again. Beating people all around without warrant card (you cannot even verify the identity of the police!); aiming for the head every single time; beating people who were already subdued. These are all well reported and documented.
Meanwhile, those mobs who nearly killed people were not even approached by the police. And how dare Carrie Lam talked about the "rule of law"?
8
Honestly, I don't know what she's doing qualifies as "listening to the people". Since June, she's ignored multiple rounds of million-people-march, and only visited a kindergarten and a senior home as her "reaching out" initiative. Now she's staged an "open" platform when all the audience are handpicked by her team. What gives?
This is not how you do "open dialogue". Carrie Lam, I ask you to launch a truly open portal, for HK permanent residents only, to vote on important matters of HK and then you respond to that. Stop pretending and please do some real work!
Also please stop the police from doing the court's job, they need to STOP treating suspects as convicted criminals already and using unnecessary force. If arrest is made, please wait for the court to decide the suspects' crime, as that's been how our system worked for decades. The police is discrediting our rule of law. No more torture and harassment during detainment please!
28
I stopped reading with all rule of law talk by Mrs. Lam. Anyone watching knows that protesters have been denied their legal rights when detained and thrown in jail. Violence? Anyone watching knows the majority of violence has been committed by the police. They have caused terrible injuries broken bones, concussions, cervical spine injuries, eye trauma and more. Rule of law? Spare the world the communist interpretation of legal representation, protecting the peace, and law and order.
39
@Lori This is just riddled with falsehoods. There has not been one report of protesters being detained for longer than they should have been without a court hearing. Not one report.
There has been controversy about using a facility in a restricted border zone--and that is legitimate. But this is a far-cry with what you are saying.
"Majority of violence committed by the police". I don't know about majority, but yes there have been lots of videos circulating and even police officers convicted in court for beating up a protester in a hospital room. But it does not take a nuclear scientist to realise that there has been so much violence by protesters too--thousands of Molotov cocktails have been hurled. Pro-beijing counter protesters have been left for dead when confronting masses of protesters.
5
@Kyle Bryce-Borthwick
The key issues here are not how long the protestors are being detained. But rather:
- Arbitrary detention
- Excess use of force during an arrest
- Inhumane and degrading treatment during detention
- Delayed access to counsel while arrested/detained
- Delayed access to medical care while arrested/detained
-
The elephant in the room, China, was mentioned once in this rambling letter. The 'two system' isn't going to last forever and the people in HK know very well what it is like in China and they are rejecting it.
8
@Albert
We all knowing that the 'two system' isn't going to last forever.
We just ask for the commitment that listed in the Sino Joint Declaration - 'two system last until 2047'
3
Huh. Weird how there’s no mention of investigating police conduct. No mention of the universal suffrage that was supposed to be part of the two systems.
3
I totally agree with Carrie that HK has future, but not at the way she mentioned. As the billionaire in the city, Mr.Li Ka Shing said, the demands from protesters is loud and well known. Simply reply the demands, all the protests will end and HK will back to the way as usual.
All the anger is came from your ignoring on the truth of general public oppose the extraction law in the very beginning, and your response was pushing more people stood up and say "No". And right now you still sitting here and ask HK police keep arresting citizens. How dare you are.
5
Hold free and fair elections and Hong Kong will have bright future.
7
The word “democracy” is conspicuously absent in this article. Instead, the Chief Executive talks about housing prices. In this way, Ms Lam misunderstands the origins and continued inspiration for this protest. The protestors demand political freedoms, this is not an economic protest.
7
Limp and unpersuasive.
Carrie Lam is in an unenviable position, but she’s established herself as the protector of the PRC, not the people of Hong Kong.
21
@ANetliner But Hong Kong is part of the PRC.
Mrs Lam continued to place herself as the center of Hong Kong's future - I'm listening ,..., my Policy address ,..., my Administration...
Has she realized that she is precisely the one who created and magnified this storm? If Hong Kong does have a future, it would require the absence of her, and any puppets of China.
11
@Wayne
That's why I always said she is not really want to solve the problem but just procrastinate ......
I really wanted to go this evening, but seeing so many cops transporting tear gas bombs, pepper spray, bullets and other weapons to the area, I have changed my mind.
Genuine dialogue, one to be held under the gun?
16
An individual or entity with a boundary problem (literal or metaphorical) will gradually encroach until called on the boundary violation. Then, the individual/entity will be shocked (!) that the other party is angry.
2
The riots in Hong Kong and Paris are really just part of the same phenomenon sweeping the world. The election of populist leaders such as Trump, the rise of nationalism, the veer towards fascism in Eastern Europe are all the result of rising inequality due to institutionalised corruption, flawed capitalist economic theories and reckless monetary policy experimentation after the financial crisis. Governments that cater to special interests is now a given, whether it is a democracy or an autocracy. Social mobility has deteriorated to such an extent that those at the bottom no longer dare dream of a better life. The arrogance of elites such as Mrs. Lam, who claim to understand how the other half (or more likely 90%) lives but really know nothing or even care, only adds fuel to the fire. While they all deplore violence, unfortunately, that is what it takes to get their attention. If they have been more receptive to the plight of their subjects, there would have been no need for the violence.
The root cause of this and other ills (global warming, pollution, over consumption etc.) plaguing the world is the unquestioned belief in economic growth at all cost. But what is the point of growth if it only benefits a small fraction of the society ? Why should we allow a handful of tycoons to dictate the cost of living in the name of "free economy" ? Has anyone actually asked themselves these questions ?
13
@Adrian Interesting. Is Adrian so bold as to suggest that these paradigms also apply in Beijing, the capital of the world’s largest greenhouse gas emitter? Or is there exceptionalism?
2
@Martin Scott I see this going on all over the world. China is no exception. The Chinese government, since the beginning of history, has always been corrupt. But this is just human nature, and one needs strong institutions and rule of law to combat this tendency. Unfortunately, this has not been developed in China despite the economic progress of the past 40 years.
While a two party system in the US allows the elites to blame someone else, this is not possible in a one party state such as China. They have to resort to strict control of information and propaganda, but they also have more incentive to deliver the goods. While voters in democracy always hope things will be different with the next administration, in China, the next administration only happens through revolution. Outsiders believe the Chinese government is omnipotent and can make anything happen, but the reality is, the bureaucrats are also under great pressure to deliver short term results. On the other hand, the party also needs to consider the long term consequences of their policies, more so than a term limited US administration, since any problem would not be somebody else's problem.
Carrie Lam has already done so much damage to HK and it is impossible to rebuild the trust between the government and people by organizing a so-called community dialogue. If you do listen, you should respond to the FIVE Demands. If you think police brutality does not exist, why don't you set up an independent investigation committee to thoroughly scrutinize what has happened since June, that has contributed to the unrest of the society?
19
Carrie Lam can't offer anything. Beijing does not want to understand anything. Protestors don't have anything to lose.
19
@Old Major
See that's what I don't understand with HK rebel's maximalism: They don't have anything to lose? So would Tian’anmen 2.0 crackdowns and / or factual annexation of HK by China not mean losing those "rights and freedoms" you currently enjoy? For China, independence means war, it's as simple as that. War on any level. See Taiwan and how they cannot ever be regarded a sovereign and independent nation by the rest of the world because China does not allow it. So I support the HK protestors (who already achieved one of their main goals from the start, the scrapping of that extradition law) but please do not let it go off the rails. Don't be romantic losers.
Carrie Lam has a thankless job. Her best efforts or her replacement would not make any difference because she has to answer to her belligerent master in Beijing. Hong Kong’s existential problem looms large. So long as China retains its political structure of top down one party rule that breeds crony capitalism and rampant corruption resulting in the lawless, unequal, and uncivil society that is China today, Hong Kongers will continue to reject the prospect of becoming a part of it. Same goes for Taiwan. That a totalitarian government aided now with state of the art surveillance and propaganda technologies whose leadership is determined by the outcome of dark power struggle controls a country with one quarter of the world's population and bent on throwing its weight around is a threat to the civilized and democratic world as well.
It has been widely reported and evidence collected that undercover cops and gangster members engaged by the CCP infiltrated the ranks of the protesters to commit some of the most violent acts. Neither can one rule out the intentional meddling of President Xi’s political nemeses who have been using Hong Kong as a haven for money laundering. Such is the dark world of Chinese politics. Regardless, the will of the Hong Kong people demands respect.
13
On the topic of amnesty for those arrested for rioting and/or public disturbance, I don't think it's reasonable to pardon these offenses as it runs contrary to law and order of any city. However, in the same vein, there must be a fully independent investigation into police brutality. If the IPCC is meant to respond to the claims of policy brutality, then what is the result of their investigation? Public opinion based on eye witness account and video have indicted the police for using excessive force. Unless this is addressed with transparency and fairness, the demonstrations will continue and the chasm between the police and the citizens they are meant to protect will grow wider.
2
It's just a show that she put on for Beijing. we have almost 60 suspicious death in the past few months, she said nothing about it. we have protesters beaten up by police (plenty footages can prove the claim), but Carrie Lam made no hospital visit to them. and all she cares about is being homebound in her "mansion", no chance to go shopping and salon.
8
Yea, no. Protests are ended abruptly by the Police over the most minute conflicts, and some more radical protesters resort to violence because of the government's own incompetence and refusal to listen to the people. Yes, they might be in the wrong legally, but I can't say that I don't sympathesize and understand them. Legality is a social contract, and HKSAR GOV is not holding up their side of the contract.
Trust between the government and the people will not be rebuilt, because it was never there to begin with. The government does not have its constitutional popular support, and it seems democratization is the only way forward.
Carrie Lam seems to still be under the false impression that what is happening now solely stems from economic inequality. On the contrary, we are entering a post-materialism world and in such a well-off society, ideological satisfaction seems to be most younger people's top priority. Yes, it is harder to comprehend for her position and her generation, but it is what happening, and its best to not run away from it.
Oh, and also Carrie Lam said she would resign shall the popular opinion is overwhelming. 73% of the people of HK wants her out. Oh well, so much for her words.
13
The Problem with CE Lam offering 'dialogue' is that all her past pretences to listen have been shown to be fake.
That even 80% of District Councillors have declined to participate, as they know she is insincere.
That in the past, the fate of most of those who stood up to debate or take leadership roles in public life strongly opposing the HKSARG's position was to be arrested, or thrown out of the legislature, or vindictively pursued for repayment of money fairly and properly paid them for work as legislators...
And that she has still not, even in withdrawing the bill, apologised for her insolence in comparing the reasoned opposition to, it (from, for example the HK Bar Association and Law Society) to her children, 'who later on appreciated she had given the right advice'.
So though she may hope to get some support for 'dialogue', despite her adamant opposition to concessions except the most minor, no-one believes her.
That's why the first step to reconciliation is her resignation, and that of her hapless cabinet (ExCo)
39
As a westerner, I am not surprised that the police wants to limit the number of protests with possibly violent outcomes, and I am not surprised that the government cannot free those arrested, that this is up to the courts, because that is how it works here too. What is absolutely flabbergasting is why Carrie Lam has not already resigned! She is seen as mainland China's puppet and she never had the support of the Hong Kong people. The people of Hong Kong have been very clear that they want to freely elect their leader. There is nothing in the Basic Law that Lam extolls that prevents her from resigning. She should have done so yesterday.
30
@AB: I am interested that you think that your opinion on whether Ms Lam has resigned or not has any significance, seeing that you are not in HK.
Let’s face it, she did nothing wrong other than to misgauge the level of misinformation and then be vilified by a hostile mob. On this basis many other leaders should have resigned by now. Let’s not forget that being CEO of HK is a thankless task as epitomised by your rush to judgement, and that no-one else wants the job at present.
5
@Andrew Why should a person who is not located in Hong Kong be in a position to comment on this article? I am surprised by how many "Carrie supporters" have commented here. All of your comments are alike in a way that makes me believe that you are all planted here on purpose to give a distinctly pro-Hong Kong govt view.
As a person who is actually physically located in Hong Kong, I can say that Ms. Lam should have resigned, but it doesn't matter because she is merely a puppet and will be replaced by another clone as soon as she is gone. Gone or not makes no difference because we are all clear that China is in charge of Hong Kong.
5
@Andrew
You mean she lied about the bill is to help the murdered victim , and she misjudged the sentiment of Hong Kong people , and she refused to listen to 2 millions people coming out peacefully to request her to withdrawal the bill but she ignored all of us , and she allows the police to use excessive force without condemning the police, and she refused to setup an independent investigation committee , and her rating is only 24.9 with 75.1% hong kong people do not support while she said she would resign when majority of Hong Kong people do not support her .. and you said she has done nothing wrong ... and should not resign .. and two more Hong Kong supposed to be the model for Taiwan and she had ruined the model ... and are now helping President Tsai to regain her popularity ...
Definitely, Hong Kong has a future, just not so sure it is getter better or getting worse. Nevertheless, Carrie Lam has done so much damage to Hong Kong and she should not be part of Hong Kong's future. For the sake of Hong Kong, Carrie Lam must step down.
27
@TL
What has she done exactly? She is serving at the discretion of the CCP. That fact alone severely limits her ability to compromise and negotiate. But even if she was able to negotiate, who would she negotiate with? The social media flash mob has no leader, meaning the loudest, most extreme voices will continue to push an agenda that will not allow compromise. Honestly, could you do a better job given the political constraints on that position?
@Patrick
Honestly how did you know no one can do a better job than she?
all she needs to do now and should have been doing is to stand up to Beijing
if she can't or won't, she needs to step down.
A couple of weeks ago, she hinted Beijing would not allow her to go, I mean, if she can't even resign from a job she doesn't want, how can we expect anything from such a person?
2
@Patrick
If she is honourable and knowing that she cannot do her job with all the limitation from CCP, she should resign ... because of health issues ..
Carrie Lam's letter fails to address followings:
1. HK people's concern over degrading of "one-country, two-systems" over the years, including unlimited power of interpretation by NPCSC, assumption of power to decide if political reform can kick off by Beijing and recent harassment to Cathay Pacific and MTRC by mainland authorities.
2. HK Police Force is widely criticized as using excessive tactics and violence. The so-called independent "IPCC" is composed of members with links to Beijing.
3. HK peoples' concerns in these over 100 days ae mainly about way of life and freedom to choose their future. Yet this letter describes what future the Government has planned for HK, like Greater Bay Area, all about economy. It is ironic that the response tells us exactly how out of touch Carrie is.
47
@Patrick
1. The essence of problem is that "one-country, two-systems" is that, as you say, a pretense.
And your advice is to get used to it. Those on the streets are telling you they don't.
2. I am yet to suggest pardoning so you need not put those words into my mouth.
Police also admitted using covert police dressing like rioters, while live footage showed they threw Molotov Cocktails and shot reporters with tear gas and others. Who's putting blame to whom?
3. The issue is while people are fighting for mastering their fate, government says this city's fate is to be more immersed into China's.
Infrastructure may have its value, yet it's the direction this city is going that matters. Not to say those projects are over-budget and under-utilized.
19
@PatrickBy treaty, 'One country, Two Systems' will indeed expire eventually - in 2047. That's a long way off. In the meantime, the people of HK would like their freedom(s).
7
@Patrick
The fact is that the basic law guarantees freedom, rules of laws and democracy in Hong Kong for 50 years until 2047. Why do we need to give up this ? The wisdom of Deng Xiao Ping is for China to catch up with Hong Kong in 50 years time in all aspect including freedman, rules of law and democracy... so it is, infact, Hong Kong's duty to persevere this modern system of Rules of Law, Freedom and Democracy so as to full fill Deng Xiao Ping's dream of modern China.
4
yes, Hong Kong has a future, just like any other cities in China, eat , sleep , don't think , never freedom.
27
@sam
Living in PRC and to HK many times, you assessment is so sad. China is alive and well, can we say the same for the old USA?
Imagine a HK level protest in America, not existing, but having a positive outcome? Asians take their politics seriously; in America it's a form of entertainment without much content; too bad.
China's game is to avoid such activity by pleasing.
I admire Ms. Carrie Lam. She is doing the best she can under the tough situation.
On one hand, she has to protect HK society not to be disintegrated. On the other hand, she cannot let blood shed to those protesters. Policer force has to be restrained. It took courage to do so. By doing so, she received both praise and curse from opposite groups of supporters.
I believe HK will recover soon. I like Hong Kong not because she is a dynamic and beautiful city, but rather its people are hard working, honest, resilient and courageous.
6
@Usok
Which act she ad done, made you believe she is doing her best? She had done everythings she can to escalated the situation from peaceful demonstration into full scale disasters. She had constructed the police to use extreme forces on protestor to ensure root engagements. All of the Chief Executive of HK SAR, faced pressure from the CCP, but she is the one whom made it to international concerns.
7
@Usok
I agree. She is in a very tough position, balancing the mandates from her bosses in Beijing, and the interests and safety of HK citizens.
1
@Usok
the one and the only she could do is to stop police violence, but she fails to do so.
1
The media never explains the Hong Kong extradition bill fully, Hong Kong wants to have an extradition bill with Taiwan, but with China in control, Hong Kong can not have a bill dealing with Taiwan without including Taiwan as part of China. As long as Hong Kong is under influence of China, it's fate is tied with China regardless what Carrie Lam wants and thinks.
7
@Soundmind Media won't tell you the bill is to retreat money from immigrant from China over the last 20 years, aka 150 quota per day plus other tricky ways. Thousands and thousands make huge loan in China or by graft before coming to HK. Now due to trade war, China wants it back to save the country.
After Carrie Alan has described the protesters have no stake in the society during of her public speech, I don’t think she has included the voice of protesters, which are the major voice in the society, in her planning. In the blueprint of HK’s future, only the benefits of the PRC matter to her. Please don’t let her fool you.
We, the HK people, are fighting for democracy and freedom. Without universal suffrage, there will have no bright future in HK.
33
As long as Carrie Lam (or any other Chief Executive) is appointed by the Chinese Government, instead of the people of Hong Kong, the city does not have a future.
39
The issues complex but Carrie Lam’s opening of community dialogues is the opening that could reduce tensions and lead to a growth of moderating forces within the community.
The arrest and prosecution of demonstrators will remain a hot issue and have to find its own level of solutions through time.
Hong Kong tourism has, as reported by the Hong Kong press reduced 90% in recent weeks and that is devastating to the business community – the pressure for solutions exists. Ms. Lam may find a way to move in that direction; wish her well.
First, no amount of PR can reconcile the city that you single handedly torn apart. Empty promises to listen is just PR.
You state that you "reject the use of violence to achieve any political, economic or social outcomes." Fine, but isn't that the exact means you are taking to achieve your political goals? Refusing to address the five demands (which have legal basis under the framework of HK's Basic Law), while choosing to turn a blind eye on the excessive force exercised daily by the police force, is in itself a kind of institutional violence on your people.
Your statement "because the rule of law is a bedrock principle, violent protests and wanton vandalism must stop" is precisely why people are still protesting. Application of the rule of law should not be selective. The rule of law does not exclude prosection of pro-government triads or the police force. Mind you, the vandalism you are speaking of were directed to objects, but the HKPF is assaulting protesters under custody AS IF they are objects ("cockroach" is used to dehumanize the protesters). The spirit of rule of law is to allow government officials to be held responsible by law; selective prosecution leads to ruling BY law.
Finally, yes, Hong Kong does have a future. But not because of whatever infrastructure or recovery plan you mentioned. It is because of the creative, humble, brave, and determined-minded youth of HK. A true leader values her people as assets, not suppressing them for her own ego or benefit.
57
How is it logical that a leader who claims to desire dialogues with the public is continuously condemning and arresting people who disagree with her?
In the mean time, the community dialogue that she is hosting is only limited to less than 300 people. No umbrellas, helmets , metal/glass/plastic containers, or facial masks are allowed. Is this how one shows sincerity in conversing with the people she is supposed to serve?
26
@A
Molotov Cocktails can and do kill. The violence is illegal, as the protest is not; an important difference. Some students have reached the conclusion violent necessary -- let them learn the other lessons; it has a cost.
1
@A Why umbrellas, helmets, metal/glass/plastic containers, or facial masks are needed for dialogue? Please enlighten me with the logic behind this.
@wsmrer
If you actually were in Hong Kong your comments might carry weight. What you assert are the words of the CPC. You may recall that it was Chairman Mao who proclaimed "the nail that stands proud gets hammered down." That is not an approach to democracy in HK or anywhere else.
1
It's difficult for me to read this Op Ed without understanding clearly that one side of the "dialogue" offered by Ms. Lam will be represented by PRC tanks rolling through Hong Kong as they did through Tianenmem Square thirty years ago.
The only reason that has not already occurred is that rather than poor students, today's protests involve powerful commercial interests.
China's drive to extradite dissidents needs to be understood in the same light as Syria's efforts to capture, torture, and kill its political rivals. Best not to dress things up too much if we really want to understand them.
Stand with your people!
36
This is notable for what it omits: mention of an independent inquiry into police violence and excessive use of force.
Not a word on near-countless, well-documented and escalating cases of police brutality. Instances where unarmed, subdued and even bound people are beaten by police who, breaking regulation, wear no badge of identification to avoid being brought to account for their actions. Instances where people placed under arrest, even kids, are brought to remote facilities and denied access to social workers or lawyers for hours, while legal assistance await outside the compound for permission to enter and help. Instances where police commit torturous acts such as shining lasers into the eyes of bound people in an act of sheer revenge.
Where, Carrie Lam, is the rule of law? Is it not the case that what you and the government are enacting is rule BY law? Because it certainly does not seem the law applies to those that are tasked with enforcing it.
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Ms. Lam, you talk about challenges that Hong Kong has overcome. But it is you--and your allies--that are the worst challenge that Hong Kong has ever faced. I traveled there often years ago, and it was one of my favorite cities in the world.
Now, it is facing a loss of freedom; but you say such improvements as a "third runway for the airport" will be compensation for a basic human right. You ask for "constructive suggestions." Here's one: resign.
It's incomprehensible to me how a supposedly intelligent woman can support one of the worst dictators in the world. One who jails Nobel Prize winners, stifles all dissent, brainwashes the population, and reduces personal freedom more every year. He's so bad that he makes Putin look like a democrat by comparison.
Finally, here's a problem that no one talks about. China's special "system" for Hong Kong was to last for 50 years...which is rapidly running out. Even if today's problems are solved, what is the solution for that?
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Carrie Lam is of no different than her predecessor, C.Y. Leung, Donald Tsang, and Chee-Hwa Tung. Yet another Chinese communist puppet, she and C.Y. Leung have contributed the most destruction to the so-called one country, two systems, which have been undermined by so many factors of culture and political differences between Hong Kong and China. It’s about China the communism conquered failed to adopt the international common measure on human right and civilized common values, as well as failed to comply the Sino British declaration as set forth by the two respective countries. The Brits May have given up upon global trend on decolonization in the 20th century, but the worse decision to handover Hong Kong to a sovereign cou o that is ruled by a communist regime that is blended with imperial totalitarian kingdom and the soviet regime.
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@KC Yau
Mir Tung may have been conservative and loved China as a nation, but he was also a human leader who genuinely wanted the best for HK.
Lam has very limited political skills and has put her own position and reputation before the interests of HK.
If she were an honesty person, she would have resigned, and simply accepted that she would go down in history as a failure.
But in her obstinacy, she has doubled down on the damage caused to HK's social and political condition.
Tung offered nowhere near the level of incompetence that C. Lam achieved.
I support Mrs. Lam. She is trying to save the situation.
Independence from Mainland China is not remotely possible.
Many local solutions are possible for the local situation but not that. Work with her please.
HK Police? I also support. They are professional beyond what might be expected in USA. There have been no deaths. In USA, there would be deaths a-plenty. Firebomb US police barracks with women and children inside (these are dormitory family residences) and then listen to the crackle of automatic weapons fire in response.
I watch daily and hope this dies down fast.
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@Johnny In US, if police beats anyone to death, the police will be investigated and charged accordingly. While the dad's family can obtain proper burial. it is not happening in Hong Kong when people disappear mysteriously after police brutality and then his/her corpse showed up in questionable circumstances. All while police announced no foul play in cause of death immediately on scene.
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@NYT Reader
I was born in HK and live here nearly 60 years. I can say honestly that it is so terrible that I have never seen before. Especially the violant police.
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None of the five demands requests for Independence. Where did you get this idea?
You need to hold community dialogues to figure out why the people of Hong Kong are angry? You are either very out of touch or this is just another attempt to mollify the populace with thinly disguised condescension.
It is not about housing, or jobs or the economy; it is about CHINA. Since 1997, Chinese elites have poured into Hong Kong. Initially they were welcomed because their purchases helped lift a market badly depressed by capital flight in the run up to the handover.
But over time tensions and conflicts emerged as these Chinese elites insisted in sometimes very vulgar and offensive terms (you can find the videos online, no need to talk to anyone) that they be accorded the status they view as rightfully theirs. It did not help that the new Chinese arrivals refused to learn Cantonese and more than 20 years after the handover the people of Hong Kong still cannot speak or understand Mandarin.
The conflict is not political or ideological. It is a conflict between peoples who have come to mutually despise and reject one another. There is also a sense that Chinese intentions are not wholesome because Hong Kong's common law based autonomy is at variance with the Chinese system and threatens the legitimacy of governance in China itself. Hence, there will always be a need by China to subsume, subvert or otherwise destroy the institutions you claim to be sacrosanct.
I side with the protestors but feel that they are 30 years too late. Their parents should have... but alas!
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When 1m of HK people went on the street on 6.9, that was WHEN she should’ve started the communication. Instead, she continued the hearing of the bill. And then 6.12 happened; she immediately blamed the protestors for being violence, and the whole focus shifted.
This should be a battle between the people
and Carrie Lam, not the people and the police.
Our demands are clear and loud, there’s nothing to talk about if 1) you are not going to listen, and 2) we have lost all trust in the government.
It’s too late to say ‘let’s talk’ when innocent people have died because of this. Blood and tears and eyes have lost during this war that SHE herself started.
There’s nothing to talk about. Carrie Lam, if you really want to restore prosperity back to this land, listen to the people, and give us back our rights and democracy.
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remember the days in may when everyone was begging to talk to the government and they were too "busy", the irony is surreal to me. they refused to even talk to the Hong Kong Bar association
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Hong Kong is dead to new investment because we all know who is now in charge. The future is only as an entry point to china market which in itself looks bleak now. Hong Kong is old news to future capital. Sorry but truth hurts.
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I'd like to hear more about increasing access to affordable housing. I don't know whether the old formula of economic prosperity for political submission still works. But I know it certainly doesn't work when the high cost of housing destroys any chance of building wealth for the common people.
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I had 2 engagements with visitors from Hong Kong which to me are a strong indicator of what is wrong with Hong Kong.
In 2017 I had visitors from the HK Transport Department to look at the technology we are developing. After giving an overview we offered support for HK on implementing the technology there. The answer was "Actually, we don't want to do anything new and we are happy the way it is. Universities are pressing us to allow trials, but we have no intention to support them".
In 2014 I had a Hong Kong based British manager from a British company visiting. He has been living and working in Hong Kong for more than 20 years. His comment: "I am suprised that all your management is local and not British. I expected management to be western like we have in HK."
Hong Kong has failed to build up local structures to develop to the needs of society and this started long ago with the British. If you look at HK 20 years ago and HK now, it has gone backwards from being a reference point in Asia to being a city in decline which is even overshadowed by many of Mainland China's cities. The protest don't help because it is pure anarchy. I don't even see where discussions on a future Hong Kong can start. Neither side understands give and take and both sides have a "for me to win you must lose" mentality. And it is really funny to see the protestors looking at both the UK and US to "save them" while these two are right now the most disfunctional democracies in the Western world.
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@EastCoastResident
Well, i set up bank here in 1988, and even then it was our policy to have local staff and no expat benefits, but benefits determined by level of management alone, for both HK and overseas staff.
I applied the same principle in hiding mainland staff, even though at the start, the employment agencies would insist on paying mainlanders less.
The idea that recently there is any pressure to have 'western staff like we have in HK' is utterly absurd.
If there is one category of skill that has become indispensable, it is decent mandarin Chinese.
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The kind of calm that Lam proposes to restore is the calm of a populace silenced by fear: fear of extradition to face kangaroo courts, torture, brutal prisons and a lifetime of oppression. Her promise of calm is nothing more than a promise of oppression so that the strange juxtaposition of extreme capitalism and totalitarian Communism can continue to live side-by-side.
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I see nothing in here about the people being able to choose their leaders.
Until that is the case the people of Hong Kong -- as it should be for all people everywhere -- all else is hollow.
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Not with you or Beijing in charge. Until universal suffrage, the elimination of Beijing-appointed rulers, the restoration of human rights lost since 1997, and justice for those harmed under your policies, there will be no meaningful future for the youth of Hong Kong.
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Hong Kong cannot survive in its current form with two masters, Beijing and democracy with its rule of law and freedom of expression. Carrie Lam has made her choice and is now trying to get the rest of the population to support her choice but it isn't working.
The proposed extradition bill was an insane idea to anyone that had thought through the consequences. Thankfully the brave people of Hing Kong spoke out against this bill. If Carrie was charged with a serious crime, a crime that angered a powerful person/entity in Beijing, would she chose to have he trial held in Hong Kong under Hong Kong laws or in Beijing under the Communist Party laws? I know which location I would chose!
Finally, why is the Hong Kong government doing nothing to restrain the police or investigate the many documented cases of police brutality? All I keep hearing is mealy-mouthed non-statements from Hong Kong officials on the topic of police brutality.
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@AmateurHistorian Is that what "rule of law" means in China? The ends justify the means? As long as crime rates and recidivism are low compared to the US, it's morally acceptable to use terror tactics, arrest protesters, and violently suppress dissent?
I get that the Chinese, with the monolithic Han ethnicity comprising 92% of the 1.4 billion strong PRC and 70 years of unbroken rule by the CCP, have different values than Americans do. If "Harmonious Society" is the ultimate virtue and the Chinese people support that, so be it. But don't assume the PRC can export that culture to places where it does not exist and other cultures will settle for it.
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@ckilpatrick
Government is a social contract and government exists because people willingly give up some individual freedom in exchange for collective security. This is true in the West as well because I was quoting Hobbes, Locke and Kant. If it is not true there wouldn’t be eminent domain nor any non-civil crimes.
East Asian place societal good above individual good so least Asian societies have stronger laws and lower crimes. After all, Legalism was founded in China and the basis of all East Asian counties’ legal framework.
You may not believe this is a superior form of judicial system but all you need to do is look at Washington DC and places like New York and California. More and more laws that’s regulates everything: what can be shown on TV, what you can say online, who you hire, what products you can sale, etc. As society get ever more complex, the need for greater good outweighs the need of the individual.
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@ckilpatrick
Those are pretty much typical Chinese type of "rule of law". Law, as mentioned by President Xi, is a weapon for maintaining a "stable" society. And many chinese (even after they moved to another countries) think the same.
Crime rate actually has nothing to do with the judicial system. The important point is that the law should be above the government and people, not owned by the government. Not to mention the right of fair trial, presumption of innocence, etc. did not exist in China. And actually, the protest originated from the differences between the judicial system in HK and China.
The future is a component of time, so it comes regardless. However, the type of future Hong Kong will or could have depends on safeguarding its democratic institutions . That means, Ms. Lam must resign and allow for an Executive chosen by the people, not President Xi. Ms. Lam has been playing a waiting game that has rattled the people of Hong Kong and has placed them in unnecessary danger. Ms. Lam has done enough!
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@Ted
Just FYI. quick history lesson. Prior to the British returning HK to China, the Governor of HK was appointed by British monarch, not chose by the people. The Governor then hand pick all members of legislative council and executive council, and served as president of both chambers. HK was a colony, ruled by the British colonial government, and never had the true independence or democracy, or whatever they are protesting for.
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@Cindy
Yes, British Hong Kong was not a democracy (though the Legco election in 1995 was in some ways more democratic than the current one), but it had the support from the majority of HK citizens. For two simple reasons. First, the colonial government understood well, especially after the 1967 Communist riots, that there is an inherent legitimacy problem in the colonial system. This made it rather responsive to the public grievances and social problems. Second, the UK, unlike China, is a liberal democracy, meaning that it was constrained by values and norms which China has no shame to trample and ignore. For example, booksellers who sold anti-Britain materials during the colonial eras did not need to worry about getting kidnapped back to the UK and being tortured there; but nowadays many are too afraid to put anti-CCP books on their shelves due to the kidnap of five booksellers in 2015. Take another example. During the colonial eras calling and arguing for the handover of HK to China, or even the independence of HK, was perfectly fine. It would not get you fired or barred from running for elections. But nowadays any objection to China's rule in HK is deemed a political taboo that may entail serious consequences.
One thing is clear. The ongoing protests show that today's HK is not as free as a British colony.
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@Ted
Hong Kong never had any democratic institutions so it is hard to see how becoming more democratic will help. In fact, Hong Kong and Singapore‘s wealth over most of Europe while have no democracy is solid proof democracy have negative correlation with wealth in Asia.
4
No word regarding the violence of the police and provocateurs against the protesters. Carrie Lam makes the typical mistake of a dictatorial regime. She thinks because the people of China are not allowed access to honest news neither are we, but in fact, we know better. Carrie Lam should either protect the arrested protesters and demand their release or she should resign.
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//I believe that the rule of law, upheld by an independent judiciary, is a bedrock of Hong Kong life; it can never be compromised...//
Unfortunately it is alleged that judiciary is not “independent” as you thought Carrie. It is well know the Secretary of Justice Teresa has conflict of interest herself. Not to mention she is appointed by Central government. In current circumstances she (and Carrie) simply cannot say no from instructions top-down.
Talk is cheap. Write to the Times is easy. Prove the world you are doing what you wrote Carrie.
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@Tai-Bo the Secretary of Justice is not part of the judiciary. Attorney Generals (which the Secretary of Justice is) are almost always political.
In 2014, Ms. Lam invited five student leaders of the Umbrella Movement to a "dialogue". Four out of five of those students were subsequently sentenced to crimes and/or put in jail.
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@Ringo That's not the fault of Carrie Lam. To be frank, it is solely from the tactics used by said student leaders. You cannot storm the legislature and get away with it because you are supporting a political cause. You cannot intentionally block the city's main thoroughfare for MONTHS on end and not face anything.
If protesters did the same thing in Toronto, I would bet my house they would get arrested and face trial. Rule of Law doesn't mean the courts always support instagram-worthy causes. That's not how it works.
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@Kyle Bryce-Borthwick I echo what is said. It seems that there is a sentiment here that HK people deserves democracy but not rule of law.
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@Kyle Bryce-Borthwick We cannot compare rule of law in different countries with different political systems. In a democratic society where the executive branch (government) and the legislature are authorised by the people and for the people, rule of law is of course the utmost important protocol to be upheld. However, in a society where the government and the legislature is NOT democratised or authorised by the people, as in the case of HK, blindly throwing the rule of law as the argument might slowly pave the way to rule BY law. This is known as the social contract basis of the legal system.
Legality is always a very debatable concept. I am NOT saying the leader should not have been prosecuted or thrown into jail, I am saying that resorting to simple "rule of law" as the argument is not a valid argument in these kind of debate.
Also, please do not belittle their causes by haphazardly describing such causes as "instagram-worthy".
6