No one "Owns" anyone else.
People enslave one another.
8
Their silence on slavery is one of the reasons
I gave up on Christianity years ago.
13
How are they possibly going to trace genealogies through six or more generations, in a population whose births may not have been officially recorded for much of that time?
14
I’m proud that the Protestant Episcopal Church of the USA (PECUSA) has been working on this issue for several years, championed by Bishop MIchael Curry. Every diocese and institutions within those dioceses are finding their way to the hard work of acknowledgment and reconciliation. None of us is unaffected by the residue of slavery. Language, symbols, cultural norms have absorbed pieces of discrimination, and that is true of “Union” states as well as the states that formed the Confederacy, and the states of the western US, many of which were settled by those who went west after the Civil War. New England (for example) has its forms of discrimination just as severely as any other place, and many a fortune was built on some connection to the slave trade.
It’s hard to get to a place where we of now can acknowledge that even though we hadn’t anything to do with the past sins, we can (and maybe should) take a look at our own inbred assumptions and norms. We can also try to listen better to the grievances of those who are still affected by the remains of slavery.
We all be human, we all be imperfect, but the Virginia Seminary is taking a good step forward in opening the door to creating a better moral ground.
22
I’m proud that the Protestant Episcopal Church of the USA (PECUSA) has been working on this issue for several years, championed by Bishop MIchael Curry. Every diocese and institutions within those dioceses are finding their way to the hard work of acknowledgment and reconciliation. None of us is unaffected by the residue of slavery. Language, symbols, cultural norms have absorbed pieces of discrimination, and that is true of “Union” states as well as the states that formed the Confederacy, and the states of the western US, many of which were settled by those who went west after the Civil War. New England (for example) has its forms of discrimination just as severely as any other place, and many a fortune was built on some connection to the slave trade.
It’s hard to get to a place where we of now can acknowledge that even though we hadn’t anything to do with the past sins, we can (and maybe should) take a look at our own inbred assumptions and norms. We can also try to listen better to the grievances of those who are still affected by the remains of slavery.
We all be human, we all be imperfect, but the Virginia Seminary is taking a good step forward in opening the door to creating a better moral ground.
9
I’ve always thought a lost wage claim brought by families of former slaves to be a better moral and legal argument. The Seminary was undoubtedly supported by contributions, as it is today, so it’s true net income pre Civil War would have been nonexistent.
One thing to remember, the only wealth this Seminary ever had is the value of the 65 acres. The only wealth in the South after the Civil War was jewelry, buildings, land and livestock. Any currency was immediately worthless at the end of the Confederacy. You can’t move land so it stayed in the South. Actually I have no idea what the basis for liability against the Seminary is other than moral. That’s why a wage claim makes more sense to me.
10
To me it seems very inauthentic when people today apologize for what was said or done by others who are now as dead and gone as their victims. We had no control over what happened in 1850. The empires and colonies of the preindustrial and early industrial world overpowered and enslaved their less powerful neighbors for at least 10000 years. That was as normal and purposeful as ants building anthills. 10000 years later... Growth in global trade, early machines, increasingly organized capital, -all these led to a historical period of “supercharged” slave labor. As industrialism, capitalism and societal organization became ever more complex, the policing necessary to maintain true slavery became unsustainable. Throughout the advanced countries, slavery died of its own unwieldy, un competitiveness. The end of slavery isn’t a story of the human heart or social justice but a shift in the collective interest due to these structural forces. This is all widely understood by historians- the westward expansion, the self interest of poor whites in prohibiting new states from adopting slavery etc etc.
so rather than make displays of moral hand washing, why not just engage now to make society more equitable. Yes, starting w AAs as they’ve been systematically oppressed.
8
@Chuffy says: "Throughout the advanced countries, slavery died of its own unwieldy, un competitiveness."
Is this an oblique reference to the Civil war as a kind of vast social Darwinist mechanism?
6
@RNewell well that’s an interesting way of thinking of it. I meant that changes of societal organization, as well as changes of mentality/social norms/“morality”.. happen as a result of structural forces - industrialism and advanced capitalism for example - and existing structures crumble. Oftentimes the vested interests in those waning institutions fight to hold on, wars, massacres, genocides can result. Just a basic wiki search and you find that many mainstream historians think slavery would likely have died out by the early twentieth century simply by virtue of the needs of an industrialized economy. This is not to be confused with race hatred, which has arguably changed not all that much.
2
@Chuffy
What is an AA?
Well the truth at last!
5
I am always struck by the "reparations" considered by institutions seldom, (if ever?) include relinquishing the privileges and advantages we have enjoyed as whites. This is distressingly true if one considers just what portion of our advantages were bought by slave labor, and what a relatively meager portion we offer in redress. Nothing short of a redistribution of wealth, from top to bottom, would properly address this.
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@Roxanne de Koning
One problem with all of this talk of wealth is that compared to today’s economy, after adjusting for inflation, the amount of wealth that existed in the world in 1865, let alone the Confederacy or US as a whole is so small as to be considered de minimis. So, calculating what was earned by the use of slave labor by one Seminary leads to an unsatisfactory low number if you are talking about distribution of money to a large number of people.
2
@Roxanne de Koning
Strong progressive taxes, funding a comprehensive social safety net, are the BEST way to address past unfair advantage.
No need to pass judgement on who is light-skinned enough to be a conspirator, nor dark-skinned enough to be victim.
14
@Roxanne de Koning
I believe in the last 30 years those “privileges” have been eroded — every college app or job app has a race question. Not sure if checking white helps! Lol
8
Thanks for taking questions, Rachel.
My current thinking on reparations follows and I'd like your comments. For institutions like those in your piece consideration of reparations makes some sense if it is within the moral universe of the institutions when they look deeply into their own histories. But the risk, it seems to me, is that the the rationale can slip over to a discussion of whether the United States should "pay" reparations. On this point my current take is that the three hundred thousand Union dead and wounded paid the price in blood. Not a talked about view in the current environment. What do you think?
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@Copse
Thanks for your question! You are not alone in your concern about where the debate about reparations might lead. There are many Americans who don't view the debate as a risk, though; they view it as essential to a discussion about how critical slavery was for the United States. Slavery set the stage for Jim Crow, segregation and the exclusion of black people from the opportunities that most Americans took for granted. This discrimination persisted long after the Civil War.
68
How nice of them to set aside the 1.7m drop in a bucket. If it were 1.7b, it would be more appropriate.
11
Another serious question. Will each subsequent birth of a child of any of the claimants create a new claimant? Is this taken into account when any disbursements are made?
7
Of course nothing can ever erase the profound effect slavery has had on all subsequent generations here, but an effort to make reparation at least acknowledges that something is owed for such evil.
15
Glad to see this happening!
6
What other private institutions do you think will commit to reparations, other than religious?
This article is part of the NYT’s ongoing effort to promote reparations, which are untenable for many reasons:
1. Slavery ended in 1865 and most non-black Americans are descended from immigrants who arrived after 1865 and were not slave-holders, and thus do not owe reparations.
2. Many blacks are descended from Africans who came to the US after 1865 and therefore are not owed reparations.
3. Many blacks are of mixed race; will their payments be pro-rated on the percentage of black/slave ancestry? How will such ancestry be measured? DNA? Historic or genealogical records?
4. Will blacks descended from African tribes that captured members of other tribes and sold them into slavery receive reparations?
5. Do all taxpayers have to pay into a reparations fund, or only non-blacks?
6. Will rich blacks (e.g., the Obamas) receive reparations or will there be a cap on recipients' income?
7. Will illegal immigrants receive or pay reparations?
8. Will payments to blacks be reduced by the amounts paid for welfare, affirmative action and other benefits they and their ancestors have received since 1865?
9. Will reparations mean the end of affirmative action for blacks?
10. What about reparations for Native Americans, who lost so much land and so many lives?
11. Poor blacks are far outnumbered by poor whites, Hispanics, Native Americans; won't they be eligible for guaranteed incomes?
If reparations are part of the 2020 Democratic platform Trump will be re-elected.
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@Mon Ray You hit a bulls eyes, Mon Ray! I'm sorry folks, but like the Constitution or Home Owner Association Directives or local ordinances or laws, this topic is not nearly as easy to address as some folks would some folks believe. This topic is incendiary to say the least and will not help the cause of beating Trump. There's a Cheyenne saying, "Don't let yesterday take up too much of today." That's not me making light of slavery's past, that's me saying let's acknowledge our country's social wrongs (treatment of First Nation People, women's rights, etc.), and move forward without creating another reason for people to lash out at each other on top of all the other reasons folks are lashing out at each other these days. Bottom line, this will create more division during a time when we need less, a lot less. I'm an immigrant and served in this country's military and swore and allegiance to this country's Constitution, I appeal to you all, let's not fan embers that will hand Trump the election in 2020 - please!
21
@Mon Ray
#3 - On the point of mixed race.
If you don't look 100% white then
you're treated as 100% black.
11
@Mon Ray
None of Mr. Obama (mixed race, not African-American)'s ancestors were ever slaves. Would he still be entitled to receive money (aside from his wealth---how does a President get rich on $400,000 per year, certainly a nice income, but after taxes and living expenses not quite wealth?)?
4
Great article, Rachel, and I love the fact that the first comment is from you offering to answer questions. Well done!
Dean Markham says ".. we're going to do the hard work work, recognizing that our past is full of sin and grace". To me, this is the heart of the matter. It is a good thing to dedicate money towards making things better, but in the end the best thing that the Virginia Theological Seminary (and other institutions across America) can do is dedicate their time and energy towards helping make black lives better.
10
Good morning! I'm the ournalist who wrote this piece. Happy to answer any questions you may have!
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@Rachel Swarns
I'm the "journalist" who wrote this story. Yikes! It's just that kind of morning. Happy to answer your questions about the seminary, reparations and what other institutions are doing to grapple with this history.
7
@Rachel Swarns Thank you for writing this article! I'm so glad this seminary is leading the way on this matter and that you have shed additional light on it.
4
@Rachel Swarns Thank you so much for this important article. How did the seminary come up with the compensation amount?
6
Read the non-fiction book "All God's Children" by Fox Butterfield and you will better appreciate how the legacy of slavery has had a ripple effect (more like a tsunami effect) that manifests itself today.
24
It's interesting how you point out how the Jesuits and the Catholic sisters did things, but no where in your article do you point out that the Virginia Theological Seminary is not a Catholic institution, from their website "Virginia Theological Seminary is the flagship seminary of the Episcopal Church. Founded in 1823".
12
@tullyph
Thanks for your question! I point out that it's an Episcopal institution at the top of the story, where I say that it was "the first Episcopal seminary in the south."
34
@tullyph See paragraph three.
5
@tullyph see paragraph 3 "...the first Episcopal Seminary in the South."
8
Good. Reparations aren't a handout or a manifestation of white guilt, they're an attempt to address the fact that this society was built on slavery, and the descendants of slaves have by and large been deliberately excluded from the prosperity their ancestors created. Spare me complaints that your great-great-grandpappy came over from the old country and never owned slaves. If your face looks white and you're here, you benefit from that same prosperity and you have taken on a debt.
85
@sedanchair Well said! We all benefited from slavery; it's time we repaid that debt!
24
Tell it all!
10
@sedanchair whoa, really? "If your face looks white and you're here, you benefit from that same prosperity and you have taken on a debt." How so, and with details please as I don't appreciate the notion that being white makes me the bad guy in this scenario? This notion that being white makes me accountable by virtue of being white smacks of it's own racism. I immigrated to this country in 1966, take this up with the people who created this horrific dark cloud of human social evolution. As someone else said, make this a voter issue for the Democrats and Trump wins again.
17