Johnson is a Serial Liar, whatever he says he would prefer to leave the EU minus a deal.
6
Give Northern Ireland back to the Irish. Enough already.
7
All goods exported from Ireland into Northern Ireland would only have to pass inspection in the UK if they are transported there.
1
@James F. Clarity IV
The part the EU is concerned about is goods exported from Northern Ireland into Ireland.
6
So people are worried about terrorists forming in Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland is a part of the UK, not Ireland. Any sicko that commits violence trying to separate Northern Ireland is a terrorist, point blank. Not sure why people are trying to cede to terrorists' demands.
1
By all accounts, British students receive scant substantive education about its colonial past. Only in context of a hagiography of British (and we really just mean 'English') Exceptionalism. Certainly no focus is given to the subjected populations' perspectives. Even for its immediate neighbor next door. So it's no surprise that Boris & UK citizens in general have given a collective yawn/shrug as to how Brexit impacts Ireland. And their continued apparent exasperation that it even matters. As many have stated, the inevitable punchline for this myopic indifference will be a united island of Ireland. And the rupture of the "United" part of the UK.
12
I grew up through the Troubles from childhood into Adulthood. I will never accept a border. I'll never produce my Irish passport crossing a British border in my country.
79
A hard border between NI and the rest of the UK will hasten the reunification of Ireland. A poll released this week showed that support for reunification with the Republic of Ireland has gone from 16% to 51% in just a few years.
The Brexit legacy will be the breakup of the union. Get ready for the United Kingdom of England and Wales.
38
It seems to me that Brexit is a recipe for disaster for "Great Britain." There is no honest solution to the Northern Ireland and Scotland problem in which everyone gets what they want in leaving the EU. Jury-rigging one for bargaining purposes; worse, actually employing one would be horrific. So, if the English truly want out, perhaps it's time to cut the ancient cord which pulled the Celts into the orbit created by London all those many years ago.
As for a Britain devoid of the "Great" part? It won't be much more than a few old castles and fish and chips shops. And it will once again simply be England. Quite a comeuppance for a nation whose flag once never saw a sunset.
34
@Bob Burns - the stupid thing is that it's the Brexit people who imagine they are 'going back' to an England of the 1950's, they do not realize there is no going back - all will be different, the Empire has GONE & their imagined 'days of yore' cannot be recovered. The BEST place to be is as part of a greater Europe, where there is protection from the impositions of despots like putin, who very much desire this European breakup & VERY likely caused this split in the first place - by rigging the vote, just as he managed to dump trump on us here in the US !!!
18
It took almost two years to tweak an existing trade deal with Canada. Why anyone would think a quick deal with the US and England or the whole UK is possible?
12
There are 1.8 million people in Northern Ireland. Now that the Prime Minister has indicated that the DUP no longer matters, perhaps Ms. Arlene Foster should propose secession from the UK. Secession and independence, followed by an application to join the EU. If NI were to do so, it would a larger member than four other countries: Estonia, Cyprus, Luxembourg and Malta. Going further, NI could propose a Celtic Republic to the Scots. With a combined population of 7.24 million, a Celtic Republic would exceed the population of Bulgaria, now the 16th largest member of the EU. Either way, the need for a hard border between Ireland and NI would evaporate. If a Celtic Republic were formed, there would likely be a need for a hard border that would trace Hadrian's Wall. That border would be 108 miles at most, far less than the 300 + miles of the border dividing Ireland and NI. Hence a smaller budget for concertina wire would suffice. With far less environmental impact.
16
@Daniel P. Doyle, Foster and the DUP could call for secession, but in the 2011 census, those identifying as RC pulled slightly ahead of those identifying as Protestant for the first time, and projections were that the trend would increase. (I have not seen more recent numbers to confirm if the trend did continue.) So, where and to whom the political and cultural allegiance of a nascently independent NI would tend, ROI or Scotland (if either is even on offer) is an open question. Both Scotland and the Republic might be more than a bit leery of taking on a hot-bed of sectarianism. Lastly, I'm not sure I see the long term sense for either Scotland or the people of NI in seeking yet another partition of a single small island. Perhaps, as you suggest, NI will tend towards it's own independence, and good luck to them if they do, but the only reasonable other way forward is slow and reassuring steps towards Ireland being a nation once again.
9
People should keep in mind, in terms of realpolitik, that the Republic, despite all the old songs that we sing, is more ambivalent about reunification than might be suspected. It's a bit like having your brother come back home after his spending time in Juvenile Detention... it Should be a happy occasion, but members of the family can be more than a little leery of the complications that arrive when the problem-child returns. Many ROI citizens are very conflicted on this point, as are many Unionists who have family and cultural identities centered on being "british". (The Unionists also fear being treated by Irishmen and Irishwomen the way they themselves treated the minority Irish, should a United Ireland come about ... which is it's own lesson.) While I welcome steps towards Reunification, and I hope to celebrate the day, any steps that include a continued peace will need to be slow enough to not trigger the old hatreds and fears that were so eloquently put into place by the English in their Divide-and-Conquer strategy for Northern Ireland. There is much healing work and trust-building to be done.
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@Nicholas Hogan Yes, Divide and Rule used to be (may be even true today) the British policy. In India, they (the British), caused irreparable harm following this cynical, but effective state-craft of theirs. Now it looks as if it is a boomerang! Ireland should be One, we in India always revere Annie Besant--the great Irish --the Founder of the Theosophical Society and a great Fighter for India's Independence, whose followers in India (the Famed Three-Lal, Bal, and Pal) asserted throughout --Swaraj (Independence) is our Birthright, and we Must Have it! More power to the great people of Ireland!
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@Nicholas Hogan
Your read on the situation is spot on. Johnson's move to save Brexit by throwing the DUP under the bus is the first step in showing the Protestants in Northern Ireland that they can sing God Save the Queen every day of their life but that won't change the fact that Westminster sees them as Irish, and a problem to be managed, not equal partners in a true union. It will be a slow process but eventually through a process of demographics and Tory hypocrisy Ireland will eventually be united.
8
@Nicholas Hogan and add Flanders to The Netherlands and Wallonia to France. That will teach the Catalans a lesson.
1
one of my old friend who is Irish told me the big payback for the past is coming.
I. Wish good luck to the Irish people
13
Brexit supporters seem insane to me, as though they want to destroy their nation out of some kind of childish spite. But, then, I live in a nation ruled by Republicans who give up their values in a nanosecond when pressed by a reality tv star president, so who am I to judge when a nation has gone collectively insane?
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Border control will return to Northern Ireland, hastening its departure from the UK:
5
Irish weren't and still are not considered equally ' white' in America. Particularly if they are Catholic.
Are the Irish deemed equally ' English ' in the United Kingdom?
7
Prime Minister Boris Johnson blames the Irish backstop issue – guarantee of no border checks in Ireland - as the tail that wags his Great Britain dog. Winston Churchill faced similar issues while trying to negotiate an acceptable treaty to end the Irish War of Independence: “How is it that the English political parties are shaken to their foundations and even shattered in almost every generation by contact with Irish affairs? How is it she has forced generation after generation to stop the whole traffic of the British Empire to debate her domestic affairs?” (December 21st, 1921).
The possibility of a border around Northern Ireland, “where the people are British, but the cows are Irish”, has sparked a groundswell of support for the six counties of Ulster to join the Republic of Ireland. Ireland with its seamless border would answer Robert Emmet’s plea on the eve of his execution, September 20, 1803: “Let no man write my epitaph [until] my country takes her place among the nations of the earth.”
W.B. Yeats at New York’s centenary celebration of Robert Emmet’s death, foretold: "The nations of the world are like a great organ... And we need not doubt…that the pipe that is called Ireland will once more begin to sound, and that its music will fill the world."
After Brexit, the empire of England will sound no more. Ireland united will eventually take her rightful place among the nations of the earth. As Robert Emmet predicted: "the man dies, but his memory lives."
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@Robert
According to today’s Irish Times London sends 204 million pounds a week to Northern Ireland. Knowing the Irish fairly well I wonder how enthusiastically they’d want full unification if it comes with that kind of a price. Hope the UK can sort out this whole Brexit thing without imposing inconvenience or misery on the innocent.
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@Robert
Correction that was a December 2018 piece in the Irish Times.
2
With a pending election that will certainly have record turnout and hinge on a few critical states, I can't see Trump alienating any Catholics which would certainly happen there is no back stop and any chaos ensues. Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Texas etc. all states he must win. Why would he alienate key voters on an issue that most Americans don't otherwise care are about?
3
David Frum, a speechwriter for Bush said, in effect, that given the choice between Conservativism or a constitutional Democracy, Republicans would chose party over country. I get the feeling the “leavers” feel the same way. Given the choice between Brexit and a United Kingdom, they will gladly embrace the dissolving of their empire over a second referendum. What did they fight all those wars for?
7
The fundamental issue here is that Johnson, Farage, and the other pro-Brexit politicians cannot deliver anything remotely similar to what they promised when they convinced the British public to vote for Brexit. It doesn't matter who the PM is: The EU has said a hard no to what the Brexiters want, a strong majority of the Commons has said a hard no to what the EU wants and also refused a Brexit with no deal.
What solves all these problems, at least for now, is Remaining.
The pro-Brexit faction has never been able to articulate exactly what it is they want to do that the EU is stopping them from doing, they're just talking in abstractions about sovereignty and the like. That makes me assume that whatever they're trying to accomplish is nefarious, because when you're trying to do something good as a politician you proudly announce it at every opportunity.
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Another example of the perils of government by popular referendum. Perhaps if Brexit had been raised in Parliament and MPs had been forced to debate and vote on it, the Brits wouldn’t be in the mess they’re in today. Representative government is meant to protect the whole from the emotions of the mob. The pro-Brexit gang sold the public on a fairy tale they knew wasn’t true and the mob bought it - hook, line and sinker.
13
This merely raises the real dimensions of the underlying conflict in clearer relief. There should be one united Ireland. End the long faded remnants of British imperialism, once and for all time!
12
I'm not gonna lie - I LOVE this idea. I can't believe I am agreeing with Boris and I know his heart really isn't in it but whatever keeps Ireland away from violence and keeps unity I'm for.
5
This problem just shows how unworkable Brexit was in the first place.
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**Before his meeting with Mr. Varadkar, Mr. Johnson spoke of the possibility of an “all-Ireland food zone,” in which agricultural products could be traded seamlessly between Northern Ireland and the republic. The European Union would probably balk at such a partial arrangement, but as Mr. Hogan put it in an interview with The Irish Times, “the penny is finally dropping.”**
If they'd had any sense, Parliament would have seen the backstop as a blessing. Staying in the customs union while Brexit is being adjusted to would have solved so many problems. Then a trade deal could have been worked out without distraction. Alas.
4
Ms Pelosi's threat to block a trade deal with the UK seemingly disregards the fact that the UK has been the USA's most reliable ally and that interference with such an ally's internal affairs would be most unseemly. Imagine the UK government in a similar situation threatening to scupper such a trade deal because of the USA's alleged failure to respect a trade deal with Mexico.
@Peter "Internal" affairs...? For starters, you do know that Ireland is, in fact, an independent country? So that means "international", not "internal". And that the concern is not trade-related. The concern is about a possible violation of a peace accord between countries & the very real fear of violence erupting once again - on both side of what is an international border. Please read her actual statement regarding her position. This is not about, say, the prosaic exchange of auto-parts.
12
Northern Ireland probably would continue do well if left in the E.U. The hard line supporters for May from Northern Ireland should be ignored, and Northern Ireland freed from the U.K. to pursue their own destiny.
7
All of this chaos because Putin keeps pushing it and conservatives are too distracted by hate to realize they are being used to help Russia. As long as all conservatives care about is winning at any cost all countries will be won by Russia and Putin.
9
Many countries have “Special Economic Zones” where regular customs rules, inter alia, do not apply. This is basically for export oriented activity. So making NI itself into an SEZ is not really out of the world.
Boris Johnson can make such an arrangement but then that would come with a price. SEZs can “export” to the host country but then that would be treated as an import from a foreign country. There maybe some duty discount (because it is providing employment) but that is all. So, a natural NI producer, who is not dependent on any import, will have steep rise in duty to the markets in Britain.
Is making Northern Ireland an SEZ the least worst solution? I don’t know but any form of Brexit will need to address the NI question.
5
Johnson has tried to assure his people that he can negotiate a trade deal with the US that will be better than the arrangement that the UK had with Europe. However, when Trump was asked if health care and pharmaceuticals would be part of a trade deal, he said they definitely would be.
From what I know of the Brits, they are inordinately fond of their universal health care system, and they do not appreciate anyone mucking around with it, thank you very much.
12
@Jack Shultz What is your point? A trade deal would presumably allow for the sale of pharmaceuticals and medical equipment. Who's said anything about a US "mucking around" with the UK's NHS?
Northern Ireland is a region of the United Kingdom. It is not a separate state, so any special arrangement for Northern Ireland would invalidate that fundamental principle. So is Scotland for that matter and similarly they cannot leave the United Kingdom any more than California can leave the United States as an example.
Long before the Good Friday agreement was the agreement reached with Ireland (the Republic of Ireland) in 1922 when they separated from what was then Great Britain. That agreement created a special relationship between Ireland and what was to become the United Kingdom (It became the United Kingdom on the separation of Ireland) guaranteeing free movement of people and goods between the two countries, which has worked well for nearly a century. Brexit was always impossible without destroying this relationship, which I believe makes the referendum null and void. They should disregard that dishonest referendum and, as they say over there, "Keep calm and carry on".
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@PeterC The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was created in 1801
1
It is time that the EU stop playing hardball and to come up with a compromise that all can agree to. After all the British already voted to leave the EU.
1
@Rod Why is it the EU's responsibility to come up with a solution to a problem created by the UK? They already agreed to May's solution, which was to leave the UK in the customs union so as to avoid a hard border between the Republic and NI. The EU will not agree to a hard border between them, as they shouldn't.
There is simply no adequate solution to the Irish backstop.
17
@Rod, just to be clear, England voted to Leave 52%-48%. NI voted to Remain 55.8%-44.2%. Being outvoted in numbers is a lousy way to invalidate a multi-decade, multi-national effort to find peace in Ireland, which is what Brexit would do. Not for nothing, Scotland voted to Remain 62%-38%. England needs to solve it's own Brexit problem , and they may have to give some consideration (after eight centuries of neglect and genocide) to their first acquisition in their pursuit of Empire in order to do so.
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@Rod I wanna leave unilaterally - now you all compromise and agree to something I can agree to! Cool, Hot-Rod !
2
Time for Northern Ireland and Scotland to declare independence so that these countries can remain in the EU. If they choose they can form a United Gaelic Federation with Ireland to help mitigate the long history of religious issues.
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@Indy1
They are not countries. They are regions of the United Kingdom, constitutionally more integrated than even States are in the U.S
1
The idea of exempting cross border agricultural trade sounds like a workaround compromise. But it might be too clever by half. Apart from local farmers known to customs personnel because they are pre-registered or known individuals, would others have their passports examined? If so, it's a hard border; if not it's a giant loophole. Same dilemmas as the "backstop." But keep trying.
8
Let's not forget that while the Irish island as a whole favors republicanism, a significant portion, concentrated in Northern Ireland, favors unionism. These unionists want to remain part of the UK and do not see "Irish" and "British" as incompatible.
(As a person born in Taiwan with mainlander parents, I assure you the nuance of the situation is not lost on me.)
Perhaps having a Northern Ireland in an economic union with the Republic of Ireland while maintaining its political union with the UK is a sensible solution until a more durable one can be found. Just don't drag it out.
This "one-country, two-system" arrangement has precedents (ahem, Hong Kong and the PRC). And at least in the earlier years it worked.
7
@William Fang: Remaining in the EU would mean for NI to install a hard border to GB. That's pretty different to the Hongkong solution.
Consequently the solution for Ireland would be a reunification of Ireland, maybe with special privileges for people living in NI. Unfortunately such a solution requires a significant acceptance by the Unionists (UK-oriented) population. A tough project.
6
"The idea of leaving Northern Ireland …."
The English Brexiters and Boris are like trump. They will use you until they have no further use for you. Then like a Kleenex you are discarded.
27
@RPM Ulster Unionists have no clue that London looks at them the way US Democrats look at people in Appalachia and the rural South
6
We’d need more details about an all-Ireland agricultural zone. Even if there were free trade in farm goods, what about importation of other goods? What about immigrants from EU countries getting to England through NI? Wouldn’t there still need to be a border, with passports demanded? Honestly curious about how that would work. Seems to me the true border would have to be the Irish Sea, but Ulster Unionists could still use pounds and keep the symbolic blue passport.
6
I see a United Ireland, ie, Northern Ireland secedes and joins Ireland lock stock and barrel.
The only question is how long with Scotland remains part of the (formerly) United Kingdom. Great Britain becomes Little England.
26
@ricardoRI
I don't see that. If that's what the Irish want they would have done it by now without Brexit looming.
Why the North Ireland only if, expediency demands, in crazy pursuit of the Brexit the power obsessed populist demagogue Boris Johnson wouldn't hesitate even to barter away other parts of the UK, and settle for the little England--a tiny island. Johnson would thus be the last British Prime minister who would preside over the liquidation of the UK.
6
The Brits need to get out of Northern Ireland and allow that British colony be unified to enable whole Ireland be part of EU. It can be a great opportunity for Johnson to assure his place in history and achieve his coveted Brexit.
24
The U.K. made a dignified but unglamorous retreat from empire after WWI. Never thought that a bunch of grumpy teenagers frustrated with curfew and picking up their room would unravel what's left, but it looks like that's what's happening. As a person of Scottish heritage it couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch, but even I can shed a tear for the blood of all the English soldiers spilt to unify the kingdom over the centuries. All for nothing, it appears. This is the end of the U.K. as we know it. At least the Vandals ended SPQR.
21
The "Irish backstop" conundrum is the end game of British imperialism. As the Conservative Party has survived at Westminster by yet another stop-gap deal with right-wingers in Belfast, Scotland and even possibly Wales say, "Enough!" After Brexit, what will the Tories blame Britain's problems on? The EU won't be available. Maybe all "foreigners", who soon may well include the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh?
20
@Martin Daly happened before.
2
Britain can simply release the Ulster colony and all is solved.
15
@KM you are right the next will be Gibraltar who may become the next backstop in Europe ( just thing about)
3
A united Ireland makes far more sense than an Irish "zone." Then Scotland will leave the U.K., and Wales will start to reconsider its situation. There's already talk of a Celtic alliance. Boris may find himself just the PM of only England, twisting the arm of the Queen of only England.
24
Those in the UK are about to lose their European citizenship - does not seem so outrageous that some of them, those in Northern Ireland, might retain it and lose their UK citizenship instead?
10
@Gerard we have dual citizenship in Northern Ireland- British and Irish, we can have 2 passports.
3
The reality of the Ireland problem is finally being addressed by the Brexit fanatics. The no deal solution would bring back some form of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republc. And Johnson's All Ireland solution leaves Northern Ireland in the EU for all the blather that Johnson might spew out. The DUP thinks of itself as more British then the Brits themselves but the reality is that Northern Ireland has always been a pain in the back to the UK and the Torys will ignore that parties steadfast support to get a Brexit deal. Ireland wasn't even discussed in the Leave campaign. And if they leave Northern Ireland in the EU that will begin the process of eventually making Ireland a single united independent state.
13
If he gets Northern Ireland a special deal, I'll bet the Scots will demand a similar deal for their country to remain in the EU trade agreements.
Old Boris may go down in history as the PM who destroyed the UK.
20
With a back stop or a Untied Ireland, there will be huge shopping malls in both sectors of Ireland to accommodate the buyers from the British Isle.
9
Slightly off-topic, but: please don't call it "Londonderry!" If you won't use "Derry," then at least write "Derry/Londonderry," or else refer to it the way some locals do, as "Slashtown."
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@Laura O’Keefe
Should we refer to New York as New Amsterdam? To the conquerors go the spoils.
1
@Laura O’Keefe - you saved me from commenting. Thank you. "Derry" means "oak" in Irish. Londonderry doesn't mean anything....
10
@QED Not for much longer.
4
26 plus 6 equals ONE.
24
Opposition to the backstop is what got Boris Johnson Theresa May's job in the first place.
And now he's going to turn into Theresa May?
British politicians must have the memory of a goldfish.
24
@Dennis Callegari No, they trust the voter to be as attentive as the average American
15
The "All Ireland" trade and travel zone seems like an Irish sort of solution indeed. If the 'real' boarder is essentially the Irish Sea and trade and travel is open between the North and the Republic, then for all practical purposes Ireland would nearly be united. Seems like a dream but you never know.
I wonder if the US could negotiate a similar deal where we'd essentially keep certain states for trade and travel but Britain would pay for healthcare, roads, etc. Maybe Britain would like to adopt Mississippi?
28
Can a united (finally) albeit federated Republic of Ireland be far behind? That result would be good for all.
55
Surely, the simplest solution is to unite Ireland. Previous British governments have stated that, if a clear majority of NI wants reunification, it should happen. Recent reports indicate this sentiment is emerging. Reunify and the backstop goes, as does the stalemate vis a vis the UK and Brussels.
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@Penny P
As long as the Conservatives depend upon the Northern Ireland Unionists to hold power, lots of luck with that united Ireland idea.
5
@Steve, currently, Johnson doesn't need the DUP because he has Already lost his majority. That's the advantage that he has over May. The Unionists now have less power, and Johnson can craft a deal that they won't like if he can pick up other Brexiteer votes from other parties which support Brexit.
7
@Penny P, it is not just “previous British governments” who have “mentioned” the idea that if a majority of Northern Irish citizens want to leave the UK, they can...that precise term is a major part of the Good Friday Accord. Once a majority of NI coverts says they want to leave, the Agreement mandates that Northern Ireland may leave the UK and become part of Ireland.
7
And what about Scotland? They, too, have been provided a “conundrum that [they] never asked for.”
It appears that Johnson is delivering an "Waleland-exit" wherein England and Wales leave the UK, and N Ireland, Scotland, and the various islands otherwise remain.
38
@JFR I hardly see that as being a "united" kingdom. Not that I'm complaining.
3
An open border is essential for continued business success and peace. The E.U. can ill afford to be hard-nosed about this.
The silver lining may be that the Irish will get to vote some day soon, both in the North, and in the Republic, to reunite the Irish peoples and end British occupation.
21
@J.M.
I do not see the Republic of Ireland compromising their own sovereignty just to help England out of a mess of its own making.
40
The English have done more than enough damage to that island over the centuries.
England is going to get its Brexit, then it can swallow Irish reunification and Scottish independence for dessert.
121
@Ed Nothing would benefit Ireland more than finally being free of British oppression.
21
Boris Johnson "went out of his way to show he was sensitive to the threat that Britain’s departure from the European Union poses to its smaller next-door neighbor"??
Johnson isn't sensitive to anything other than his own ego -- his shallow euroscepticism was gambled on the Leave vote losing in the EU referendum.
It was in this very paper, on 22nd July, where an op-ed piece described Johnson as one whose "lying comes as easily as breathing," while his "laziness is proverbial and opportunism legendary . . . a man well practiced in deceit . . . his personal life is incontinent, his public record inconsequential."
Ireland's Varadkar is too smart to believe a word Johnson says, not least because Boris has no solution -- and never has had one -- to the Irish border issue.
75
Ironic that when Ireland exited the UK in 1921, it was forced to leave Northern Ireland behind and now as the UK leaves the EU, it may have to leave Northern Ireland behind.
59
For anyone with the slightest memory of The Troubles and the history of Ireland, the notion of having a border between between the North and South of Ireland is a hateful wound. A visit to the Irish National Museum in Dublin will make that clear.
69
The hubris of these people never ceases to amaze.
Why on earth would the EU agree to provide the UK with all the benefits of EU membership for Northern Ireland, without sharing the cost? You get the bitter with the sweet.
Let's hear it, UK; are you willing to lose Northern Ireland (and Scotland, for that matter) to get out of the EU? If so, little England, just pay the piper.
93
While all eyes may be on Northern Ireland, it might also be a good idea to keep some of those eyes on Scotland, especially after Scottish judges recently ruled Boris Johnson's suspension of Parliament and his no-deal Brexit move as unlawful.
That's why it should surprise no one if they opt to have another referendum in order to stay in the E.U. since that's the only thing that kept them with Britain last time.
The last thing the U.K. needs now is a problems with Scotland and another dispute with Northern Ireland that heralds a return of "the troubles".
43