Egads! Get those people out of there! They're not doing anyone any good learning nothing about survival in today's world.
Step 1: Call a "family" meeting (by the way, where's the dad of the young woman who is the step-daughter--he should definitely be involved) to announce that as of 6 weeks from date of meeting, "Jane" and "Dick" will need to move out--no alternatives, no extensions;
Step 2: Make it clear that you will be happy to show them how to seek employment if they need the help--set up a designated time that is convenient for you, stepmom; you can offer them a reference for the new landlord/lady.
Step 3: While they're doing the job & house seeking, make out a 6-week "Chores Schedule" posted on the fridge where your and their daily chores are listed--rotated by job after each week for fairness: e.g., the one who does the sweeping on Weds. is rotated out of that job and replaced by another person.
Step 4: Don't offer anything more. After 6 weeks' time if they've not found a job or a place to live, make it abundantly clear that that's not your responsibility and they must move in with a friend or relative, or visit the local homeless shelter--but, your home is no longer available...period.
All of this may sound harsh but in reality it isn't. It's a lesson in living that people must be responsible for themselves to the best of their abilities.
I've done this for a few people over the years who were wasting their time in my home and in my life--and it worked!
2
I will never understand peoples' obsession with genealogy and DNA. Unless you have a really rare blood type and need a bone marrow match why would you care about distant relatives you don't know? And why someone 80yo cares is doubly absurd. And if someone doesn't want to be know then that should trump anyone else's right to find them. I agree about literally any other pursuit being a better use of the person's time.
25
@Todd This is the 80 year old's father being talked about. She has probably been wondering about him her whole life. Let her have some peace in her final years and by being able to learn something.
26
Your understanding of why people are interested in their family history has no bearing on the desire for the woman to know her family history. It seems to be a common experience that people who do not know their biological parents want to know them or of them.
25
@PrairieFlax. I could not disagree more. Someone who had no role in your life wasn't a father, they were a sperm donor. That fact that business like 23 and me exist show that others don’t agree with me . But the fact the the largest interest in genetic testing involves the Mormon Church who got involved to help identify and bring dead relatives into the fold after the fact should give people pause about the whole thing.
8
Liberals want us to roll out the welcome mat for illegals, to show compassion, paid for by the taxpayers. But when it happens in a private family setting, all the NY Times readers want the homeowners to get tough and throw out the freeloaders. What is the difference? Virtue signalling, using other peoples money, otherwise the same dynamics apply. If you make it personal the liberals somehow get it, otherwise not so much. It is best not to let the situation happen in the first place, DUH!
15
@sob
Which Native American Tribe gave your ancestors a visa to come here? Were they illegals? Or as a typical conservative, do you believe you can take what you want and have the right to kill those who stand in the way? Undocumented people are not entitled to welfare, food stamps, social security or Medicaid but they do have taxes withheld from their pay check. But this is not a issue of politics but about how a parent deals with a child (although the child is a near-grown, step child).
19
These “children” also have one other major obligation: the obligation to learn how to take care of themselves. Whether you mention it or not, parents die and they don’t always leave a Rockefeller legacy.
8
Give them 60 days to either (1) get a job and pay a set amount toward house expenses, as well as begin helping with certain agreed-upon household chores, or (2) move out. Let them make the choice. But at 60 days, it's one or the other.
18
Could it be that the 90 year old doesn’t want the 80 year old woman to pursue information on her father because there is an inheritance involved?
13
To the writer of the first letter, sorry, but once you allowed the layabouts into your house, they get to stay as long as they want.
Ethically, you are required to provide them with food, drink, vintage wines, wi-fi (with a strong signal), cable tv, marshmallows, spa days, tuition, a queen- or king-sized bed with clean linen, laundry service (light starch, hangers), a two-week vacation to the destination of their choice in the continental US (airfare included), recreational drugs, medical care, and emotional support.
Additionally, it is strongly recommended that you build a pool for their use, buy them a late-vintage Lexus, and hire a professional oil painter to paint their portrait.
You must sign over the deed to your house and give them power of attorney, and keys to your safe deposit boxes.
7
You’ve got a 20 year old who you took in as a minor because his parents were addicts. Which means he was raised by addicts. Not the most functional of households, with the most consistent of expectations. Your stepdaughter is seemingly not living with biological family either. So you’ve got some likely trauma, maybe the first stable home they’ve had, and perhaps a literal lack of knowledge about what “normal” is in housekeeping, sharing, contributing, etc. So they need to be taught and guided. Do they know how to apply for jobs? How to clean a bathroom? Don’t assume they do.
Also, please check in with them both about their goals as far as kids goes, and help them prevent a pregnancy if that’s not what they want right now.
35
Whoa!! I have NO sympathy, none, zilch, for the 20 year olds lying about the house doing nothing. Jobs to pay rent and pay for food etc., to become independent, are hard to find, but not jobs. Those kids need to get registered in some community college, use college counselors to choose some field, and then get jobs flipping burgers, or whatever, but they HAVE to be out of the house and in classes or at a job, period!! And this is a stepdaughter, where's Dad? I can't imagine putting up with that.
16
LW1: Can you kick them out? I don't know. You need to ask a lawyer not an ethicist. You can tell them they are in charge of getting their own food and transportation by not buying food and selling the car that you own but they use. Give them a month's notice so that they can find a job and get some money to buy food. A wake up call might help motivate them.
6
LW2: My family has a long history (4 generations so far) of "outside children" being adopted out or abandoned. These children, now adults, and their children have begun to reappear and my family loves it. We, as the core family, have always been aware of these children. The sad part is they have been told nothing about their family or have been told a fairy tale. I realize truth telling about illegitimate or abandoned children wasn't done 120+ years ago or even 50 years ago but I have no problem telling them what they want to know.
11
The woman searching for her father is 80. The man identified as possibly her father is 90. Did he father a child when he was 10?
8
„I reached out to one son of the man I suspect may be this woman’s father.“
5
@James
No. He's most likely her half-brother, knows that and does not want the skeletons out of the closet.
8
The 90 year old is the son. If anything, it would be her half brother
5
Stepmother, obviously this is an armchair analysis, but I think you have to truly believe that you are not being "selfish" about maintaining your personal space on your terms. Maybe you should seek therapy for yourself to figure out why you are enabling these kids. I have friends who are afraid to be assertive with their kids in similar situations. It is baffling to me as a parent of a self-sufficient adult child, but I can see that they are emotionally incapable of it, perhaps from their own set of insecurities or guilt over failed parenting. Even though they complain and lament the situation, no amount of well-intentioned advice has any inpact.
14
I'm sure I would be annoyed, too, if I had a 20 year old daughter (step or bio, I see no difference) and her boyfriend living in my home, while making no contribution. By the way, if they were going to school, I would not expect more than that they do household chores. I believe that kids in school should devote the majority of their time to their education and not to work. Any money they make from a few hours of work should go to tuition, school supplies, clothing, etc.
Of course, they aren't doing that now.
I suggest that the LW sit down with the kids ad find out what is going on. If necessary, do it in the presence of a family therapist. A few sessions should help the LW and the kids figure out why they are so lacking in motivation and what needs to be done to set them on the right path.
I don't agree with the many people who have said that the BF should go since there is no relationship between the LW and the BF and, therefore, no obligation towards said BF. The LW took him in because his parents are addicts. Essentially, he is an unofficial foster child of the family. I believe he should be treated in the same way as the daughter for the time being.
Get them both the help they need in a firm and loving way. Whether or not the daughter stays with the BF long term, she will thank the LW in the future for the way she was treated when she was 20 and having trouble finding her way.
22
i let my ex live with me before he went off to grad school rent-free.
he actually bragged after the fact how easy it was so easy to save 10k while he was only making 35.
and no, he did not help with chores, either.
lesson learned.
24
I have 2 college aged kids. When they come home along with their SO's, I am happy to welcome them home because they have good grades and are graduating in less than 4 years. So I know they're working very hard at school taking more units than their peers. Next year, one of them graduates, and he has indicated, he will be home to save money. My husband said to him, you're welcome to stay home, but need to pay for your part, I agree. Yes, he is the stepchild. So be it a stepchild or not, everyone needs to do their share in my house, we aren't Kennedys, nor Trumps nor Rockefellers!
19
@Ying Yang
When my son graduated from college and lived with my husband and me for a year, we charged him rent. When he moved out, we gave it back to him.
36
Fake it til they make it. Inform 20 year olds that they are to be up, dressed and out the door by 8 a.m, and can return at 6. Working hours. Pack a lunch. They can look for a job full time, pursue leads at library and employment centers, and will be in the habit of getting up at a reasonable our. Turn the wifi off and hide the tv clicker. Each month between the date of their diploma and their first job makes them less employable.
The 80 year old has been wondering about her father, and her ethnicity, her entire life. The writer cannot be sure which uncle is her father (maybe grandfather also had another child on the side.) but she can tell 80 year old they both seem to descend from same ancestors, where they hailed from , and let her figure it out from there.
21
What is this "unwelcoming economy" the Ethicist mentions? Surely these two can find jobs of some kind, bringing in money for their own bills and maybe contributing.
It's a tough economy for people saddled with student debt. And it's a tough economy to really support yourself at minimum wage. But it's not a tough economy for people with their basic needs met by a parent.
27
It’s just a lightly veiled shot at President Trump.
2
The step-parent should tell the moochers they need to do an assigned list of chores. Change the name and password on your router so they can't spend the day online. Learn how to use the parental controls on your TV. Take back the car keys. Tell them they need to start paying rent with a specific starting date. Tell them the consequences of not obeying will be door keys that no longer work. They will somehow find another place to live where they can mooch again.
DNA tests do not give you the right to invade other people's lives. They do not give you the right to expose skeletons in their closets. It is not up to you to find this lady's relatives. Mind your won business.
19
How about all three go for family therapy? This is NOT going to be easily settled amongst the three or is it four persons involved.
11
@Auntie Mame
Family therapy? They're NOT a family. They're three unrelated people who are enmeshed for reasons not disclosed in the letter.
Why should the letter writer waste MORE money and more energy and more time enabling the stepdaughter and her co-moocher?
The faster she puts them out, the better.
She seems to be too terrified of these adults to act. That's why I think she need protection. Maybe to the point of hiring a live-in companion -- an off-duty cop -- for a few weeks.
24
@Pecan Families come in lots of different shapes and configurations. Despite not being related, these three are sharing a home and (dys)functioning as a family.
The suggestion of family therapy is a good one, in my view, because it will prompt an efficient conversation in which these two freeloaders cannot possibly win any point on the merits and instead will be confronted, in a safe space, with the harsh reality that it is time to show up for life and start taking care of themselves.
We don't know everything about the letter writer here, but we do know that she's reaching out for help. The Ethicist's response is a great start, but she could use some ongoing guidance - and, let's be honest, backup - in initiating and conducting these difficult conversations.
15
@Pecan Hate to break it to you, Pecan, but unrelated-by-blood people can also be a family.
22
I have less and less sympathy for people like these. All three seem to be weak codependents, and in the case of the young ones, immoral and egocentric as well.
Respect is earned, not given, and it generally involves making hard choices. I would have some respect for the stepmom if she gave them their walking papers, and some report for the kiddies if they voluntarily started contributing to the household. As it stands, though, they just seem pretty low, all of them.
Break the ties, stepmom. At least you'll get some self-respect back. Maybe they'll end up living in a tent, but that's not your problem. Have some courage.
14
Astonished!
My parents had a rule, once you reached the age of majority, you had to be full-time student or get a full-time job… or move out. If you had a job, you had to contribute 1/3 to household expenses, save 1/3 and do whatever you wanted with the other 1/3. In any case, if you lived at home, you had a list of weekly chores to do.
You are enabling two users.
46
In the big picture it is not the worst to have young adults lounging around the house surfing the internet and texting, eating, staying up late watching tv, partying, sleeping late. They may be in blissful honeymoon state, in love with life and enjoying their extended vacation. They are safe and sound at home, they are not doing harm to anyone else are they? They are also fun company I bet. And they will do chores and clean up after themselves and cover their food expenses and contribute towards household expenses if they are required and if they are approached about it in a nice and respectful manner. They are more or less a captive audience. Work with them. Teach them how to live with others. Encourage them to use birth control and to have other good and healthy habits like personal hygiene. Teach them to value getting things accomplished. Make it a happy experience. It may be the last time that they will live with their parents, let them know they are always welcome, that they have a home in this world if they should ever need one.
12
@tony That’s ridiculous. I am delighted to have my kids and their SOs around but no one is going to live with me who is neither working nor attending school.
34
@tony
Yes, enjoy your toddler.....
21
@tony Maybe the bio parent feels as you do and that's the problem for the step-parent.
4
The load can shift gradually for the moochers who are so complacent they don't even have an education plan. The implication, although not stated, is that cell, internet, and cable is provided, and gas, and car insurance... perhaps start with having them support their own services. You want it, earn some bucks to pay for it, having rent free living is a huge boon to anyone. At the very least they will learn some independence for the inevitable day when the gravy train ends. It is amazing how many people fritter away valuable time they could be using to prepare for the future, instead of wasting their lives vegetating in the present.
5
My son is handicapped and only minimum-wage employable. He is welcome to stay in my house forever. He also is expected to perform his household duties and pay rent. I love having him around as another pair of hands comes in handy. But no one lives for free.
34
@Brian What percentage of rent?
1
@PrairieFlax
he pays 1/3 his income for room and board
13
The woman who contacted you about her father has a right to know her story. It is HER story. You have no right to withhold it from her. Give her the information you have and send it along to her. If the possible son chooses to ignore her, so be it. But she has a right to know what you know!
22
@Caroline She has a right to know what she can find, the same as LW did, but does anyone have a right to know what you know, from you?
12
LW2 It sounds like you got a nasty brushoff from the 90 yr old guy.
It's moving that this 80 yr old woman wants to learn whatever she can find out about her father at this late date. But I wouldn't tell her about this guy. You don't know for sure he's related to this woman and why send someone who at 80 is still searching for some resolution in her life to a person who it seems likely will have absolutely no sympathy for a venture like that if it involves him or his relatives?
Kindness should be a concern when passing any information along to her. This guy doesn't sound even remotely kind or empathetic.
8
There is quite a bit of daylight between kicking them out tomorrow and letting them freeload forever. The way I read it, the stepmother (based on the illustration), would be OK with them living there IF they were working or going to school or at least trying. I'll do a good amount to help someone, but that someone has got to do his or her part to keep the help coming.
23
Here's a thought for the freeloading kids: Give them a list of chores to do around the house and ensure that they do them willingly and without being asked. Give them an amount they must pay in rent in order to live under your roof. Give them a time limit to comply or else find their own place. You are harming them by allowing them to avoid growing up. Then when they're in their '40's with no job history you don't have to face kicking them out because you can't afford them.
33
@Ravenna
Why should she waste time composing "a list of chores," and how can she "ensure that they do them willingly?"
Why not just change the locks and place their belongings outside the door? Maybe hire a protector to stay with her for a few weeks, an off-duty cop, e.g.
11
@Pecan
Because she has a heart.
7
@John
She needs a backbone.
10
This sounds just like public assistance if the people receiving it do nothing to obtain employment and get off of the dole.
6
@C Really? Because it is my understanding, thanks to Bill Clinton, that you have to work (if you can) to receive public assistance. At least 20 hrs a week,
9
20 somethings unmotivated and lying around all day? This may be depression and/or drug addiction. Your money may be better spent on drug testing and/or therapy than on expenses such as a car (cant they use Uber or public transportation) and their bills (what bills could they possibly have if they dont do much). Laying down expectations about house responsibilities and actively looking for a job may help them get out of their funk. Be firm but kind. This is a fine tightrope to walk, especially as a step-parent. I've been there and done that. It wasn't fun, but my step-son is now a solid citizen.
15
Just want to underline the importance of getting your valuables, checks, etc. out of the house and into the safe deposit box. These people may get angry at being locked out. They may trash your house, etc.
Please take care of yourself. Please get some professional advice, not from random strangers' comments or from a philosopher, but from someone who knows something: a cop, a lawyer, etc.
45
Step-mother,
You have done more than enough already. These 2 will never grow up if you continue to enable their childhood existance. It sounds as if you need support to take measures necessary to correct their over-prolonged dependency. Please get some...this is a pretty outrageous situation that you are unwittingly allowing to continue.
7
I'd encourage them to split up. Try to help the step daughter find a better partner. Get her out of the house doing something with different people her age, people who are going to school, working, improving their situation etc. Maybe buy the boyfriend a ticket away, with a check waiting for him far away where he knows someone who might help him get a job there, not where you live.
It sounds like they might be doing some sort of strong drugs, maybe even heroin, or some sort of downers. Do they exercise? Take the step daughter to a doctor.
3
@Kay Have you ever tried to split up young adults? That usually results in an even stronger connection. The step daughter doesn't need a better partner; she needs to better herself. Can't say I agree with any of your advise or assumptions.
10
@Kay Sieverding
They just seemed like an ordinary pot heads to me....would like to know how many hours they spend on phone/videogames everyday they may be addicts but not necessarily drug addicts
5
@Kay Sieverding
So you’re saying she should pull the rug out from under this young guy. She’s been the adult figure in his life for a few years. His parents have already done that to him. It sounds as if they are both depressed and or smoking pot.
Interfering in their relationship isn’t the answer.
3
I find it hard to believe that the stepmother is not married to her stepdaughter's father. He needs to take the primary lead. She is not the parent. Her DH may even own the home.
7
LW1 - who could be male or female - accepts these two young adults as a couple. They're not. One is a step-child and one is someone who was allowed to move in "several years ago" w/no plan for becoming independent.
It's time for the young man to go. He's had "several years" to get himself together & hasn't. His free pass has expired.
The step-daughter's bio parent should be consulted & a plan agreeable to both parents created, presented, and enforced. The parents should be certain that they don't put themselves in a legal quandary by requiring "rent" that could officially make the step-daughter a tenant with specific rights.
8
@knitfrenzy, In California, any "guest" who stays in your home more that 30 days is assumed to be a tenant, and you are required to take standard procedures to evict them, such as giving notice, having them legally served by a sheriff or process server, paying to shelter their abandoned property, etc. I had to go through this to remove a "tenant" from a parking space (no housing) after he stiffed me for five months rent. Rent laws do take the side of the tenant, and seem not to recognize that there are bad tenants as well as bad landlords.
11
@Ososanna, Virginia law is the same.
@Ososanna
That's why they should know the law before they take action. No money is involved yet.
My point was to treat these 2 as separate individuals. The step-daughter is a family member who may have some flexibility. The young man is someone whose years of free housing, food, & amenities has expired. LW1 needs to stop thinking of them as a "couple" when planning an exit strategy for each.
6
My kids would rather die than move back in with me, except in the direst emergency - I did a good job raising ADULTS!
But then, both got jobs at 15 because they were required to pay half of their car costs; they had chores; and they also got an allowance (rights and responsibilities). Because...I was raising adults, not children. They are now independent, financially literate, and capable.
I agree that you can’t snatch the pillow away all of a sudden, but you can set a timeline for putting things right. Chores to be completed each day. Resume completed in one week. Job center visit by x. Etc.
19
Get them out, but if you can, help them. Agree to pay half of the rent for a studio apartment for a fixed amount of time. Let them figure out the rest of the bills and how to live on their own together.
My guess is that they will not be together long without your support. It seems like a relationship of convenience for them, but not for you. They need to figure life out together or individually.
There is a lot that needs to be sorted out here, emotionally as well as financially.
Set them up so that they can start sorting, but without you in the middle holding things together.
7
Since the step mother somehow has put herself into this position, she may benefit from brief counseling/therapy, to help her emotionally become assertive and change the family rules.
16
When my boys were graduated from high school in 1982, I informed them that in one year we were all going to vacate our rented house and go our separate ways. (I was eager to move on and develop my own career as an artist.They weren't working or going to school, just hanging out with their friends.)
The year passed. I rented my own small apartment and stopped paying rent on our family house. The boys had to scatter. In the following years they proceeded to evolve into productive, working adults with wives and children of their own. "Dependent-teenager" is just a temporary period in a kid's life - parents shouldn't allow them to stall out there.
31
@Margie Moore
Frankly, most of these answers make me wonder why people bother having children. (Maybe they are all accidents!)
BTW the human brain is not mature until age 26 -- and I literally felt mine change at age 20 (something like tinnitus which I have now stopped -- my head was clear not ringing -- but I hadn't known it was ringing until it stopped) and again at 26 (certain confusions went away- less grey more black and white)- and at 29, 40, 60, 65,70 (all with loss of memory, information falling out or taking much longer to retrieve).
@Auntie Mame Oh, come off it with that 'not mature until age 26' business. Junk science. Even the NYT, which used to be infatuated with the concept, doesn't push it much anymore.
The human body doesn't reach its full height until somewhere around age 16, but we don't push 15-year-olds around in strollers (at least I don't think we do, yet, though I see bigger and bigger kids in strollers every year) and then, at age 16, dump them out and expect them to run marathons. Maturity is a gradual process. Apparently these leeches have been in the stroller all their lives. They're overdue to be, if not running, at least crawling or toddling. I can understand perhaps not having a job, as their resumes are probably thin and they don't come across as ambitious and energetic. Would you hire them if you had any alternative candidates? If not, why would you think anyone else would? But housework? As the Apostle Formerly Known as Saul of Tarsus said, he who will not work, neither shall he eat.
Don't cook for them; don't wash their clothes; change computer passwords. Dole out these privileges -- for that's what they are -- in proportion to their contributions. Either they'll pitch in or surf on some other sucker's couch.
4
The stepmom should ask, in a positive way, for help from her stepdaughter and the boyfriend, starting with her stepdaughter. If I were in this situation, I would start by finding a discreet project--say, washing interior windows--and enlist the stepdaughter’s help. Starting with a project, and then segueing into a permanent share of household tasks, will both give the young woman a sense of contribution, and point out that help is needed, without blaming.
3
@Susan No, the stepmom should talk to them about a plan. Work, school (college, trade school?) and then help them execute the plan. She needs to stop enabling these people.
11
@Susan From my experience running an outreach program, I respectfully disagree; the stepparent should not ASK for help. That's not what we call the contribution any household member is required to make to keep the household running. The stepparent is not asking; s/he is clarifying expectations. I would suggest that s/he should set forth a reasonable plan with fairly short deadlines (the boyfriend moves out immediately; the stepdaughter immediately starts shouldering her share of the household chores; the stepdaughter prepares her resume within two days, and visits the labor center within the week; secures employment within two weeks and starts paying a fair share of the household expenses within four weeks). And if the stepdaughter is not happy with these conditions she can find another place to live. And I would probably suggest that the stepparent start the conversation by apologizing for being less of a parent than the stepdaughter needed, but that s/he was resolved from this point on to change and help her become an adult, rather than keeping her a child. By the way I make this suggestion even if the adult child were the parent's biological child. I would prepare the stepparent for pushback, but would help her/him to stay strong through the process, knowing that s/he was doing what was right and most appropriate in the circumstances.
14
Google "jobs for live-in servants," and you'll get 43 million leads.
Problem solved.
6
In a rather different situation, I had a very tough time with my daughter's lack of communitcation and helpfulness when she was in high school (not unlike lots of teenage girls.)
The thing that really helped the most was when we scheduled breakfast together one day a week before school. Somehow, going out to breakfast gave us a neutral zone to talk about what was going right and what was not.
Not necessarily suggesting taking them out to dinner but suggesting successful family meetings based on a, "this is not working for me now." What our eventual goals are and what weekly goals we should set to get to the big goals. And every week a check in at a neutral place - could be just a park or a planned dinner. But I'd say goal setting, planning weeks goals and weekly checkins might open and keep open lines of communication as well as getting the family to a better place.
17
Here is a rule-of-thumb that I've found useful:
As long as they are growing, i.e., truly maturing, taking steps towards independence, or towards acquiring job skills, then the mother is helping them.
If they are not growing, are stagnating, or even regressing, then the mother is not helping them, and it is her responsibility to evict them.
9
Since they’ve lived with her so long, if she wants them out, most likely she will need to pursue a legal eviction or they might be able to sue her. I would put some requirements about the use of the car and if they don’t follow through, take it away and put it in storage or have it somewhere that they don’t know about. Pay for their gas and share of the insurance if they aren’t already. Having a 20 year old man in the policy will really make the premiums go up. Job, contribution toward rent, doing household chores, their own laundry etc. If she does try to evict them I would be seeing an attorney if I were her. Some parents collect rent from their children, say for six months and then give it to the kids for a deposit and rent and a bye bye at the door.
3
Re: the stepdaughter & boyfriend. You do need to start creating and enforcing boundaries. I'm assuming the stepdaughter's bioparent is not in the picture. If they are, then you two need to go to counseling about why you're the one seeking help about this, and not the bioparent.
First, tell them what their living expenses "owed" are-- just divvy the utility, house taxes, food bills, etc. three ways. Tell them that within six months they have to start paying their part in full.
Then, they need to get part time jobs and start creating a work history. Any work is better than no work. And require them to get at least 20 hours' work per week. They have a month to get those jobs. They should keep you advised of all interviews and pay rates, hours, etc.
Then they have to show you the pay stubs after their first check. Confirm they have bank accounts. Remove them from any access to your financials, including bank accounts and credit cards.
After their second check, they have to pay some portion of it toward household expenses.
If they are in arrears after a month of working, then you remind them that they need to catch up.
Still in arrears after two months of working, they have two weeks to pay up, and then their stuff is out on the sidewalk. Then change the locks. Seriously.
If they're doing their share and still can't pay in full, then renegotiate, and push them on the plan to get a full time job. Either they will shape up, or literally ship out.
24
Why is there even a question as to what the first writer should do?
Give the parasites till November 1st to find jobs and another place to live (or some other sucker to take them in).
I can't even imagine living like these people.
28
Your stepdaughter? Where is her father? You are related to neither of these people. If her father is no longer in the picture, consult a lawyer.
35
Give them a month or two notice that you are going to charge them rent and tell them how much. Then do it. You can use some or all of that money to help them out later when it's appropriate to help them. They're leaching off you now. Hurts you and them both. Set the rules then don't back off. If they respond obnoxiously, show them the door.
16
Kick them out. Now. You don't owe anything to both of them. They are adults.
14
Hand them a catalog to your nearest community college and encourage them to enroll and find a job training program they like.
12
EEEU to both the spoiled ungrateful kids and the helpless stepparent. First, excuse me but where are the girl's parents. These aren't even your legal kids. First I would never allow a young man to move into my home. If they wanted to shack up, do it on their own dime. Lady, you need a backbone!!! This is wrong on so many fronts. Not to mention who raised that girl? Ick to all of it.
36
FOOD and TOILET PAPER. At the barest minimum, these two can certainly work a fast-food or gas station job, and earn enough to feed themselves, and wipe themselves.
Start with that.
17
Did I click on Dear Abby by mistake? This is the sort of question the advice columnists deal with all the time. I think you are straying too far from your initial charge.
11
@Allison
You see a lot of this on Dr. Phil. The problem is with the spineless parents who find it easier to cave than to face the music that their kid is a loser.
2
To Kwame:
As often happens, I fail to see the ethical angles here.
The "boyfriend" is a man. The stepdaughter is a woman. Giving these adults weeks/months to clear out is to enable/invite them to keep sponging. Get rid of them today. Donate their junk to Goodwill.
Get a professional cleaning agency to get rid of the deadbeats' odor, and get a painter to freshen the look of the place. New curtains. Reupholster. Etc.
14
It is tough to get a good job, but it is not tough for a physically able young person to get some job. Even working as a shelf person in a supermarket or drugstore, there are openings like that where I live and I assume elsewhere. Those young people have to get off their butts and start contributing money towards rent, utilities, etc. and hopefully move out soon so the writer has her home back.
12
The first thing the stepparent with the layabout step daughter and boyfriend should do is call a lawyer. In many jurisdictions the parent's behavior so far has conferred some rights on these moochers. You need to know what rights precisely, and what kind of notices you need to give to get them out of there. If they don't leave voluntarily it's going to take some time.
Landlord/tenant law is not difficult; it mostly requires persistence. There a tons of lawyers who specialize in that field, on both sides. Finding someone who can give you a concise explanation of your situation will not be difficult or expensive.
20
Favors - even repeated ones - do not morph into "responsibilities" - maybe in some galaxy far far away, but not here. The Ethicist should have mentioned the legal ramifications. The couple will probably force their host to evict them and depending on state laws, the host may be in for a long wait, particularly if the young deadbeats know how to game the system. I have seen it happen in court with a guest who showed up for a weekend, and then refused to leave. The homeowner ended up moving out through the lengthy process due to intimidation in her own home and returned to a trashed condo.
6
@Eli
One of my favorite movies is Pacific Heights. A horror film if you happen to be a landlord.
5
Give them a deadline of 3 months. Then stick with it.
In the meantime, they should be doing all the housekeeping and
contributing to the grocery bill.
Parents are responsible for teaching life skills. Like independence!
8
Chucking the word "ethical" into a question does not make it an actual question about ethics.
19
Perhaps this step dad needs to accept the fact that he’s only got this problem because of the woman he’s married to. What’s his wife’s take on the situation, and if the married couple can’t agree, perhaps they need to assess their marriage and formulate a compromise.
1
@BBW The illustration shows a woman, so presumably the writer is the stepmother. However, I now wonder how the Times knows that if the name was withheld.
Why do you assume the person who wrote the letter is a man married to a woman? Because only men own homes? The letter gave no indication about the genders of the letter writer or the spouse/stepdaughter’s parent.
This is a somewhat bleak comment for LW1, but here goes.
The mixed use of "I" and "we" in the letter renders it inconclusive whether you are dealing with the layabouts on your own or with the step-daughter's biological parent. In the case that you are on your own, err on the side of caution. I agree with all the other commenters to assign them household chores, tell them to get jobs, any jobs, and set a deadline for them to move out. Before doing that, please make sure your valuables are well-hidden, checkbook put away, and any financial info — bank statements, checkbooks, PIN numbers, SSN, tax returns — is not lying around. Have an exit plan for taking away the car and car keys.
Perhaps your stepdaughter and her boyfriend are lovely, just lazy, people. But there is always the chance that moochers accustomed to their circumstances will grow resentful when those circumstances are being changed, and could lead them to poor/vengeful behavior.
32
@An American
Drugs could be in the picture too....and that leads to behaviors only a drug taker would do.
4
@An American
Unfortunately, you are correct. And the point is that LW! needs to begin by exercising so discipline in herself, which includes safeguarding important documents.
And when discussing the big changes coming up, it's fair to give them some time, with everything spelled out. And spelled out in writing. Perhaps they will shape up, getting jobs or going to colleges, or move out on their own. But if they aren't cooperative, and refuse to contribute to the household or take steps to earn their own incomes, the written document will clarify that they were totally aware of her expectations, should she have to go to court to evict them
3
I seriously doubt that these two are either embarrassed or unhappy about being squatters in this woman's house and having everything provided for them. If they were, they would get up off their rears and do something about it. They don't even help with the housework.
When I graduated from high school in 1979, the economy was lousy, I had no money for college and no guidance either at home or at school. I joined the Air Force and have been working full time ever since. The unemployment rate now is a lot lower than it was then. These two could find gainful employment somewhere even without a college education. They're just riding the gravy train because StepMom is providing it.
11
@lb The military offers a lot of advantages. Job skills, life skills, career opportunities and the GI Bill for college later. Special mortgage loans, medical insurance. It’s not for everyone though.
1
Where are the biological parents? Why or how did the stepmother get into this situation originally? From the printed letter it sounds as if there’s quite a bit of enabling going on, and everyone involved could use some counseling.
9
@ LW1
I listened to my sister-in-law complain about a very similar situation with her son. He attended a small private college on an athletic scholarship. Near as I could tell, his only interest in life was running, and he didn’t develop any career interests by the time he earned a Bachelor’s degree. His mother complained to everyone else in the family about her son bringing dirty clothes home for her to do his laundry.
He moved back into his bedroom in his parents’ house right after graduation. Well, in reality he never left home. He made no effort to find a job. His parents have never told him to do a domestic chore at home, never taught him to cook or wash his clothes. His mother complained to me about it, and how much money she spent feeding him. Finally she got him a job as a busboy at a local restaurant. Within 5 months, he’d gotten his shift manager pregnant. He continued to live at home until she was 7 months pregnant, and then his girlfriend asked her roommate to leave so he could move in. He didn’t want to take on his adult responsibilities. His middle-class parents complained to everyone about him taking advantage of them.
I told my sister-in-law that she’s sleeping in the bed she made; she raised him. Why won’t she let go? Her son is a man, not a child.
10
@L
Her son is a child in a man's body. It is cruel, weak and selfish not to ensure that your kid grows up.
5
Stepdaughter. In situations like this, blame always goes both ways - to the enabler and the enabled. Both are psychologically compromised.
Assisting someone escape accountability and responsibility hurts them more than beating them up. This is how we get intergenerational welfare recipients who wouldn;t dream of getting a job, or education - they don;t know how and anyway, they are getting their monthly check.
For the stepmom: is this about pity? compassion? fear of strife? fear of public opinion? fear of the husband? childhood patterns? laziness?
2
Dear Stepmom - you have to figure out exactly why you have allowed this to continue for so long. Even though you know they’re taking advantage of you, you haven’t set boundaries, so what’s your secondary gain? Will you be lonely when they leave? You are 50% of this scenario, so get clear about why you have enabled them. Do you feel sorry for them for some reason?
You really aren’t helping them in the long run. Your actions keep them dependent and childlike. Why would they change when they have a cushy deal at your house? If you don’t feel capable of setting boundaries and getting them out and on their own, then get a family counselor to help. Enough was enough some time ago!
13
I’m confused. You described the young woman as your “stepdaughter”, but you made no mention of her biological parents. Are either of them still in the picture? Are you still married to one of them? Perhaps it is time to bring one or both of them into the discussion.
At best, they may be able to help motivate you stepdaughter to take more responsibility for her life and may even be willing to share some of the financial burden in the meantime. If nothing else, they may help present a united front in convincing your stepdaughter that the current situation is not in anyone’s best interest.
4
The woman who is letting her 20 year old daughter and the daughter's boyfriend ho are not in school and do not have an job, are not actively looking for one, and staying at her house without paying rent or otherwise contributing to her household is ultimately doing both the daughter and boyfriend a disservice. They need to be given a reasonable period of time, for example, 30-60 days to move out. Otherwise she is encouraging a cycle of dependency which will probably continue the rest of their lives. My hard working parents lived within their means and saved and invested their entire lives. I went into a professional career worked brutal hours and made good money for a long time. One of my siblings and their spouse got jobs, diligently worked and was promoted and saved diligently for years. My other sibling, is broke, despite having a degree from an Ivy league school (courtesy of my parents), a spotty work history and has been supported by my parents for decades (except for a short time in which they were supported by a sugar daddy). When I was doing well I gave this sibling thousands of dollars in loans (none of which were ever paid back) along with many expensive gifts. I later also found out that this sibling referred to me as the "greedy pig" during this time. If the mother has the means to, which it did not sound like, and wants to set up a spendthrift trust for the daughter fine. Otherwise, she needs to get these freeloaders out for everyone's long term benefit.
5
LW2- I Took the 90 year old man’s response to mean “leave me alone.” Why can’t LW2 do just that? There is no need to upend his life now, let him live out his days in peace. If the 80 year old woman finds him independently (don’t pass the information to her), he can deal with her as he sees fit.
LW1- Tough love is needed here. Give them sixty days to find another place and move out. Don’t engage in long explanations about why they have to get out of your home. They are adults and know they are leeching off you. Be firm. Good luck.
5
@Lynn in DC, yep, "tough love" is needed even if incapable of feeling that love and always in an angry, revengeful state.
2
LW 1_ Start with expenses, tell both that they will be responsible for food, gas, car repair and insurance in two weeks, each has to have their own income. Tell them both that they must apply for ten jobs every day. It might be hard for them to get jobs with their lack of job history, but they must put in the effort, obviously they are deeply immature so you will have to helicopter them until they are able to fly on their own. Since one has babysitting experience, how about a nanny job using the babysitting gigs for reference.
A friend allowed her adult child to live home free, he had no job experience and some emotional problems, she felt that he would become a low level criminal if kicked him out (a much bigger burden in the long run) and I think she had a point. Over the years he matured and managed to find his place in the work world. I would also present an extensive chore list every single day, wash the windows, paint, spring/fall cleaning, laundry, closet organization, yard work. It will take a lot of time and effort on your end to supervise, but for whatever reason you were unable to steer them correctly in the past--time to start pushing hard and once they have jobs, start charging rent (even if you put it into a savings account for their future.) Once they have jobs, they still have to do chores everyday! If they really can't find jobs and you can't force demands--make them volunteer 8 hours a day, 5 days a week to build a resume and fill their time.
6
Sell the house and let the new owners deal with the free-loaders. Not good? Ok, then move all their stuff into a storage unit with one month prepaid, give them the key to the unit, and change the locks on the house. They’ll get the message.
5
Advice columnists would go out of business if it weren't for door mat people who fear losing their "family members" who mistreat them. Why? Why do we need people in our lives who mistreat us and don't like us? Move on people. Remember that it is not a sin to dislike someone, relative or not.
5
Where is the stepdaughter's biological father and mother in this scenario? Am I missing something in this narrative?
8
Maybe the boyfriend or step-daughter could consider seeing a navy or Air Force recruiter. If qualified they will receive training, experience, and benefits that may help them find careers and independence. Before the haters get started on me recall that most recruits by significant percentage never see combat or a war zone. And no, I’m not a trumplican.
8
"What is my ethical responsibility toward the two 20-year-olds living at home with me?"
None.
Nada.
Zilch.
10
Something is off with the math. A 90 year old dad and an 80 year old daughter? Even if there are a few years off in both directions this strikes me as odd. Mind your own business.
8
@Val Schaefer
Finally someone figured this out!
3
@Val Schaefer
The half-brother is 90. The father's age isn't mentioned.
Too late for LW2 to mind his own business as his immediate family has suggested. He's attracted a request for information by making his profile public. Pass the info on, make his profile private, and get out of the family meddling business.
3
@Val Schaefer
I thought the same thing but perhaps we're talking about siblings?
The daughter and boyfriend might very well think that you are doing all these things out of the goodness of your heart because you want to help them. They might have no idea you are starting to get resentful. You owe them an honest conversation.
12
LW1:
You absolutely need to give the stepdaughter and her boyfriend a push. You don't mention her father, but he needs to be on board with this too, or he will undermine your best efforts. If you don't give them a deadline, they will never change, since there is no downside to them in keeping things the way they are. I saw this firsthand with a friend of mine whose father finally kicked her out at 45(!) because she still had no steady job, no college degree or plans to get one, and no motivation. She did have a boatload of excuses and a huge sense of entitlement. He finally gave her a deadline to get out, I think it was 3 months. She lived with me for a while, but when she tried to pull the same entitled behavior (not doing household chores, not looking for work, etc.) I kicked her out too. She had to burn through her list of friends before she finally got a job (FT, with benefits, though low-paying) and a tiny apartment of her own. She's now in her 50's. Some kids want to get up and go, some really need a push. I would also suggest family counseling, because I suspect there are some issues with the dynamics with her father, too. You may need a detached professional to help everyone see what needs to happen, with a minimum of screaming. Good luck.
6
The comments on the 20 year olds are pretty harsh. We really don’t know the job situation in their area or what their childhoods were like. The step parent may not have been involved in raising them, so it may not be anything to do with him or her whether or not these “kids” are together people.
I’d tread softly if it was me. I think I’d talk to them a lot and see a family therapist. I might ask to look at their resumes and go over them with the kids; I might tour some junior college programs with them. I would try to give them some hands on help.
For this generation, some people have middle class parents who didn’t have a lot time for them. The middle class jobs in their towns may be gone. The parents can suddenly expect a miracle, or be content to leave their kids to very unpleasant, insecure work. This is partly a political issue too.
20
@C There is always a McDonalds or whatever that is hiring. No one is too good for a job, no matter what it is. You take what you can get, and then improve from there.
7
@C. That doesn’t address the issue of their not pitching in around the house. It’s just basic human decency to do so, the cluelessness of these two is breathtaking.
10
@C
Why do you feel the need to make excuse for these adults who cannot be bothered to even help clean around the house they live in for free. I don't see you offering up your home and wallet to "help" these two people. Yes, they may not have had the best childhoods and if so they have my sympathy. Most people learned by the time they were in elementary school that life is not fair. But it is no excuse for taking no responsibility for their lives and having a bottomless well of entitlement. I have seen parents go through hundreds of thousands of dollars or more and go into bankruptcy and losing what took them a lifetime of hard work to build up, trying to "save" and be "nice" to these kinds of adult children. Is that fair to these parents? I can only think you are young and naive and have never experienced how things play out in the real world. And you mentioned politics; for what it is worth I have been a "bleeding heart" liberal my entire life.
2
with regard to letter 2. My advice - tell her what you know (and also what you don't know) the fact that the potential 90 1/2 brother is not interested is not relevant. At the age of 80 and to her credit, she is seeking to put a face and a name to her life story and fill in a blank. It's the kind and polite thing to do. I speak as a 64 year old who took a DNA test and was suprised to discover my father was not my biological father. A polite enquiry to a 1st cousin match has gone unanswered and I am debating whether I move onto to 2nd & 3rd cousin matches without appearing as a stalker. Most people take the test to learn something and that includes you. Why not do an elderly person a big favour by offering up what little you know, just plaster it with "maybe" and leave it at that.
18
LW1: Fall is arriving, and that makes me think of back to school and new opportunities. I'd like to sit down and plan with you for your future.... 1) Do they have/need high school diplomas? 2) What are their interests? 3) Local community college/tech college offerings? 4) Do they need help interviewing for a job or filling out the applications?
These two might want to get on with their lives but just not know how to begin the process.
11
@Katrin
Nobody know how to plan and get on with their life at that age, but most of them at least start, or ask for advice. These kids don't have to because step-mom is taking care of them. The longer this goes on the worse it will get.
My mother ended up supporting one brother because it was easier to throw money at him than to ease him out of the nest. He had tremendous potential. It ruined his life.
Two points about LW1 & the recalcitrant step-couple:
One, where is the step-daughter's parent in all this? I find it troubling no mention is made of that person. You will have to come to some agreement with him/her because that step-kids will often object to parenting from a step-parent, right or wrong, 20 or less. And if the step-parent fails to reinforce any plans, never minds short-circuits them, that will make failure all more likely.
Second, it really is all about presentation to the step-kids. A blast from on high will only cause them to tune out. So, start out with, "Okay, kids, I know that things have been down, you've had time to recover and now it is time to make a plan for the future." Then follow up with, "Okay, you need to either go to school or find a career path. What are your feelings about either of these things?" Note that you are telling they need to think about things, but then you are asking them questions to involve them in the answers. That gets their involvement.
Other phrases: Somewhere you can work in, "I wouldn't be a good parent if I did not tell you this/did not do this." Also, "Well, that's an option, but it does not work here." And lastly, "The time limit is 'x' months, then you will be expected to move." And that last phrase is what should have been said initially to avoid this problem.
Good luck.
20
Drop a (big) hint. Tell them that you can no longer afford upkeep and insurance on the car at their disposal (I am assuming it is a second car). Never allow them to drive your car. Not even to buy groceries for the house.
This is a big intro into change that is coming...
2
My mother started early. When I wanted to wear clothing to my tastes, she told me that when I paid for it, I could have anything I wanted. This extended through adolescence to college--doing what I wanted when I paid for it. As I got older, my contributions to my own upkeep increased. So, when I graduated from college, I got my own apartment--the only expense I wasn't paying was rent. I found a cheap place to live, and I've been going ever since. Mom was smart that way--she didn't want her children dependent on her, for their own good.
12
@kdknyc
Yes. Your mother was wise. I would add that having chores, like doing one's own laundry (at thirteen), washing dishes, mowing the lawn, and getting a job in high school helped me learn responsibility, budgets, and how to live within my own means.
When I went to college in 1993, my parents didn't worry about me. I called them once that first term and they left me to solve my own problems. And I am grateful.
8
@kdknyc
When I graduated from college nobody paid my rent or anything else. Everything I had I worked for and in retrospect it was the greatest gift my parents ever gave me.
1
I've known people who put up with this sort of thing for so long that they eventually resorted to keeping their own food in a padlocked refrigerator in their locked master bedroom while the " children" moved into their mid 30's still psychologically 15 years of age. You must address this. The world is not that hard to navigate. They just have to adjust their wants and needs and income and outgo-which is a process. Start with some steps and deadlines. And he is not even related to anyone. How did he end up being your responsibility ? Depressed ? The circumstances are those that foster depression. Doing nothing is exhausting and debilitating.
22
I have one post-graduate adult at home. We have a contract. He has a full-time job, and he offered to pay rent (I have him show me his bank statements instead so that I know he is on track to move out). He has chores assigned to him. He is expected to pitch in with larger projects as he is able. During the short times where he has not had a job, he was expected to work on the house - demo a bathroom and help renovate it, etc. I am a firm believer that arrangements with adult children living in the home need structure, assent, and an agreement to contribute however that is defined (time or money). Progress on adulting skills should be required.
50
So sad.
So sad for these young people; so sad you had to ask.
Things can't remain the way they are. Your charity is inhibiting their growth. The risk of pushing offspring out of the nest is the risk every loving parent must take at some point.
To love is to will and act to bring about the highest and best good for another. Love is an act of will, not an emotion.
21
Many years ago I asked a relative if I could move in with her, temporarily, of course, while I pondered the next step in my life. She unequivocally said "No."
That "no" was the push I needed to move on and make decisions about my future. I am 80 years old now, looking back on a life of choices and accomplishment. I am grateful to her for her insight and firmness.
68
"They are probably not happy about their dependence on you or about the fact that they haven’t been able to find jobs and the wherewithal for a life away from home."
That's a bold statement. Maybe they love it. It will take lot of tough love to get them moving.
43
No, they don't love living off the indulgence of the step-mom. No one in that position feels good about themselves.
The boyfriend who is the child of addicts may be suffering from clinical depression. I would not kick them out but demand that they enroll in job counseling services at their local community college, choose a vocational career path and enroll in the appropriate technical programs. Maybe later on they will pursue four year degrees but for now they have to have some kind of hope for their near term future. The boyfriend may be eligible for Pell grants or other programs. He may be holding the stepdaughter back with his own depressive state.
32
The step-parent's dilemma: is the other, presumably biological, parent in the picture? If so, then coming to a common understanding about the household situation with THAT person is the precursor to what's next. Assuming bio parent is on the same page as step parent, and absent health challenges on the part of the 20 year-olds, I'd counsel them to establish a time frame wherein the 20 year olds would start contributing financially to their cost of living and saving toward independence. If, however, the cultural context is such that children customarily nest with parents and eventually assume care giving as needed, then I'd just stay with the kids contributing to upkeep.
7
"The point isn’t that the mooched upon must remain mooched upon, that doormats must remain doormats. The point is simply that you owe these young people some time to make alternative arrangements."
Our daughter dropped out of college and went to live with her boyfriend (now husband).
Solution: Tough love.
No school = no money, no credit card, no co-signing on an apartment, et al.
Result: Two responsible adults with promising careers. A completed degree. A wonderful grandchild.
64
I would not immediately throw them out. I would tell them that temporarily, in lieu of rent that they were responsible for housekeeping duties, in increasing amounts with the expectation that they would eventually start paying their rent. I would not make myself responsible for their meals.
There may not be good jobs at their disposal but their are jobs. They need to get accustomed to working and improving their lot. Spending time away from each other at separate jobs would help them to establish some independence.
This woman is not doing these kids any favors in the long term.
All a parent (or step parent) can really hope for in their kids is that they become independent and are happy.
29
@Rob D
The only problem with having them pay rent may be local landlord/tenant law, which may make them practically impossible to evict. So, it may be a good idea or not, depending.
4
@Poppa Gander
Charge them for their food, the cooking service, the cleaning service, the gas for the car, the car rental, etc, then itemize the bill, and make it out in duplicate. Each one gets a bill.
On the top of each bill, in caps: WELCOME TO ADULTHOOD.
So their first jobs are boring, tedious, and pay minimum wage. Boo hoo.
They can go to community college part-time and pay for it themselves.
You do realize they know they are freeloading? They sort of knew this was coming?
3
@Poppa Gander These kids aren't going to know anything about such laws.
If these young adults cannot get a job with 3.8 percent national unemployment, they have issues.
Maybe buy them tickets to the Dakotas or Vermont, where there are worker shortages. But soon, before the recession hits.
31
Step-daughter isn't alone in being a live-at-home millennial. LW1 has some family relationship on which to base a conversation about moving forward. There is no such connection to the boyfriend who has been there for "several years."
There's missing information as to why in those several years, the boyfriend has not received any social services, counseling, or other services that would've allowed him to gain independence by now.
LW1 needs to raise the issue ASAP before this long-time couple has a baby. Following the millennial pattern, getting married isn't a prerequisite for starting a family. They may have expectations of living as a family of 3 or 4 w/LW1 indefinitely unless they are explicitly told otherwise.
21
@knitfrenzy Oh please. We baby boomers also didn't marry before having a baby. Stop blaming young people.
@PrairieFlax
No blame.
Baby boomers couldn't wait to shed their parents, live on their own, have kids, marry or not marry. The difference is this young couple - who fit the Millennial category - are being supported by parents.
@knitfrenzy
My neighbor lives in the dank basement of his dream retirement home with his wife, while his kids and grandkids enjoy (and trash) the upstairs. As the years pass this once temporary arrangement has become permanent. There is now no way to fix it.
1
I started to make home life intentionally uncomfortable when my daughter finished college - I emphasized chores and lack of privacy. I pretty much started treating her like a child because children live with their parents not adults. Lots of love, yes, and a Lot of questions on her whereabouts and doings, etc. I emphasized that when she is on her own there will complete autonomy - big carrot for kids that age. I also did not buy her a car or phone even though I could afford it. The phone can be a real clincher these days!
She didn’t stay long and became very independent pretty quick.
61
@Christine Feinholz I have taken a opposite ... but ultimately similar tack. We live in an extremely expensive area for housing, so I am sympathetic to having my 23 year old son around still. However, we treat him like an adult - meaning, he has to do all the adult things like work a full-time job, clean up after himself, pay for his own phone, do his share of chores and house upkeep, save a fixed percentage of his income toward an apartment and a cushion. We have been training him for independence since he was old enough to cook and do laundry ... the best way to launch him is to expect him to be a grownup.
19
Pack their bags and leave them by the door. Clean out their bedroom. Park your car on another street. Remove all furniture they sit on. Remove all electronic devices.
28
@Ellen F. Dobson
Change the locks.
3
@Ellen F. Dobson what, exactly, does creating homeless street people with the potential to slide into becoming addicts do? This isn't 1958, hon.
9
@Multimodalmama
That's right. In 1958 they were just called bums.
1
How can a 90 year old man be the father of an 80 year old woman????
29
@Maureen, I believe it was the 90 year old's father that was the person suspected.
6
@Maureen The key sentence reads, "I reached out to one son of the man I suspect may be this woman’s father." So the 90-year-old man could possibly be the 80-year-old woman's half-sibling, not her father.
3
@Maureen You misread and seeing all the recommends, you are not the only one. The father of the 90-year-old is purportedly the father of the 80-year-old. They are half-siblings, not father and daughter. (Happens to everyone!)
3
How much is rent in your area, 1st month, last month rent is usually required at lease signing. Can they save this much money in, say 6 months.
Will they be homeless? I only ask because putting them out with no plan is extremely harsh. The conversation leading up to giving them a time frame might require more than a date you have in mind. I’d get a family counselor involved.
9
@Joan B
It doesn't take "6 months" to make a plan, and throwing money at a "family counselor" is . . . absurd.
They can both be employed by this afternoon. They can make "a plan" while flipping burgers.
5
Do it, come on you can do it, kick them out with an exit date possibly 3 to 6 months giving them enough time to pull it together. Easy boundaries never work for these guys and before you know it the 20 year olds are 30 year olds still living at home and turning into those basement dwellers. Good luck!
28
@Pinkie-doo-da
In addition to a deadline give them goals to meet in the meantime. My guess is if you give them 6 months with no conditions at 5 months they will still have done nothing.
43
LW 1: in these scenarios it’s often the case that the “provider” is getting some sort of satisfaction or some need (to be needed?) fulfilled by the presence of the “provided for” they otherwise resent. When the affirmation of value and the sense of control rub up against the feeling of being used, hence disregarded as valueless, you’re in a nasty bind. If push comes to shove, as it probably should in this case, it may well bring with it a sense of emptiness and loss on the part of the provider. Do it, then do yourself a favor and get a dog. Unconditional affirmation will be yours, without the psychological suffering.
19
@Rip
ADOPT a dog, of course!
1
I suspect that this pattern got set many years back, when possibly the step parent took a back seat to the decisions of the bio parents. Or perhaps her attempts to impose any discipline were undercut by an indulgent or guilty parent. And now she's sick and tired of martyrdom . .
Re the DNA story below the freeloading story, am I missing something? A woman who is 80 is looking for her father. An amateur genealogist thinks he’s this guy who is 90. If so, he became her father at age 10. I don’t think so. Did no one else realize this? Or like I said, am I missing something?
2
@Anonymous
It's worded confusingly, but the 90-year-old is the son of the suspected shared father.
43
I believe the 90 year old is the son of the father and therefore the 89 year old’s half brother.
17
@Anonymous
90-year-old would be 80-year-old's half-brother. The belief is they share a father.
30
I think what these younger people are doing is playing the, "Let's see how far I can push this before somebody says something" game. Just say it! Get them moving!
Personally, I'm a little tired of this "There's no jobs" and "It's hard" nonsense. Life is hard. Suck it up and get to work. I know plenty of young people that hustle and have jobs. And then there are those that spend more time making excuses than getting off their butts and doing something to build a life.
I had a strong work ethic at a young age. I got that from my parents and other family members. I had paper routes, mowed lawns, odd jobs, parks department work, painting, etc, all starting at around 12 years old. There was no sitting around complaining and feeling sorry for yourself in my house. I also learned how to negotiate my way around work situations and deal with people. All valuable skills that I still use 50 plus years later.
I was also the only kid on my block that had his own money and could go to the movies and do other things without grubbing money from my folks. I look back on that young independence with great pride.
53
@Bryan
Why is it that our generation was dying to grow up and leave home while large numbers of people between the ages of 18-40 are content to live off family members and be parasites? It is so prevalent, it has become a cliche.
9
@Bryan I'm a Millennial. There are plenty of jobs for those of us that actually want to work. There is a self-defeating culture, a sort of echo chamber, where the lazy reinforce these ideas of "no jobs" and "so hard" for each other. Of course it's hard. Life is hard. Get a job.
13
@Eli
It could be that WWII had a lot to do with it. Conscription ensured that most able bodied men were putting their lives on the line, and many women joined the war effort. Kids were expected to take up the slack at home. In this world of outsourcing, spoiled and entitled kids are going to get their lunch eaten by the kids in other parts of the world.
1
Left out of this letter is the detail about Dad, who is probably guilt-ridden and/or manipulated by his daughter.
This is the easiest time in recent history to get a job, even for uneducated and unskilled 20 year olds.
Kicking them out might be considered cruel by some, but if they think that making them get a job is cruel...then they are manipulative grifters and you should kick them out immediately.
37
I’m unsure if letter writer is father or mother in this family. Not that it makes a difference, I guess.
4
@itsmildeyes
I totally agree. There's no reason to think LW1 is a woman yet the comments suggest there is a father who hasn't weighed in on the topic.
2
@knitfrenzy
People are being swayed by the illustration.
My guess is that LW1 is a man and is also the only wage earner in the family (since he pays for everything) who married a woman with a daughter (his stepdaughter). Now the girl is 20 and he continues to support his stepdaughter as he did when she was younger and still in school, only now she is out of school and there is a boyfriend, too. The mother wants to keep her daughter happy, but the stepfather has had enough.
He has probably discussed all this with the girl's mother, which is why he is asking what his ethical responsibility is. He cannot simply set an ultimatum for the two young people to move out, because it is not his house alone. If he takes away the car, etc., it would cause intense friction with his wife. Unfortunately, he probably has to set an ultimatum with his wife if he wants things to change. Then the wife must choose between her daughter and her husband. If she chooses her daughter and LW1 divorces his wife, the husband may have to pay alimony for his wife (and the house may have to be sold), but he will not be required to support his stepdaughter and her boyfriend, who will then be totally reliant on the wife.
It is possible that LW1 is a woman who is paying all her husband's daughter's expenses, but that would mean that she is working (or has abundant savings) and he is not, which is simply less common in our society, unless he is much older or is disabled.
1
The other day, a good friend of mine who lives in the country complained to me that whenever she lets her two cats out the back door to play, they run into the woods in opposite directions and she had to chase them. They're running her ragged! Well, duh. When I suggested that she put leashes on them to prevent this literal "herding-cats" scenario, she said she couldn't do that because they love being outside and leashes would hurt their feelings. I said I had no sympathy for her, because indulging her little predators in this manner is a choice she's making, and it's easily fixable. She didn't like this answer.
The indulgent stepmother has created a monster, turning her home over to mentally and physically competent young adults without a single condition, limit or demand for responsibility. Unlike cats, these 20 year-olds are perfectly capable of picking up after themselves, following rules of the house laid down by the owner of the house, and seeking gainful employment.
The letter writer does nobody any good in this scenario, but as soon as she exercises her power, the situation will change. The question is: why is she afraid to take charge?
48
@Round the Bend I live in the country and I don't let my cat out unattended. I put a harness and a leash on him and take him for walks and he loves it. It's not about the cats feelings it's about its safety. One time when I had him tethered outside, a deer approached him and almost stomped him to death, so having him on a leash is a great solution.
5
@Round the Bend: You are assuming there is an indulgent "stepmother." The writer could be a stepfather. It seems odd that is no mention of the other parent in the letter. The letter-writer seems to be the one footing the bills with a lack of extensive past involvement in daughter's upbringing.
@Round the Bend Lack of support from the biological parent/spouse? Is the bio parent absent? The step-parent role is often an emotional minefield that requires careful maneuvering. I agree with other posters that outside counseling would be helpful.
2
For the free loaders it is a situation that many face, but the approach of having frank discussions seems to be the best. The elephant in the room is exactly that financial independence from parents. For my generation it was like get out as soon as possible and get on with living life independently because like in high school if I wanted clothes other than hand me downs I had to get job. Nobody wants to live under Mom's rules. Love you Ma!
===========
Finding family via these DNA services has been fantastic! My cousin discovered he had a 38 year old daughter and she has been a joyful addition to our family, especially given the fact her aunt (the only female amongst siblings) passed away five years prior. I wish you that kind of success, and most importantly it helps with a lot of other benefits to include genetic health history.
14
I say give your stepdaughter/ boyfriend a date 6 months from now to move out. For example; on February 28 is your move out day. You must be out by then. Give them 2 to 4 weeks to find a job . If they do not find a job by the 3 week shorten the move out date by the amount of weeks it’s taking to to find a job , so for every week after the 3 week they don’t find a job they lose a week from their 24 weeks ( 6 months) to move out. Give them an empty coffee can for them to save for their new place. Do they own cellphones? If they do who pays for it?
8
@My Love empty coffee can? Seriously? What year are you living in? In our area it takes about $7-8,000 to secure a low-end 2br apartment - first, last, security, and fee.
1
"An empty coffee can to save for their new place" — what century are you living in??
2
Is there not a “Squatters Rights” issue in this story? I am pretty sure that here in Broward County Florida any person who has been allowed to live in a home for an extended period of time, has clothes hanging in the closet etc. can not be evicted by the host.
Legally the mother can’t make them leave. Certainly not the Boy Friend.
3
@Mike Moriarty They are not squatters; they do not have "adverse possession".
@Mike Moriarty
They can, but they may have to go through an eviction process.
Hopefully it wouldn't come to that.
@Mike Moriarty You may be legally correct, but if my kid pulled 'tenants rights' on me after freeloading, I'd give him or her his "notice' and have the Sheriff evict their sorry butt as soon as the law allowed.
1
As to the moochers, wait until they go out, then put on Lucinda Williams brilliant rendering of "I Changed the Locks." Follow the instructions.
7
Nope. We don't have enough information to make any kind of judgement.
That's because he mentions a "we", as in, "...(whom WE took in a few years ago....)".
That "we", is that the stepdaughter's mother or father?
Is that the reason the young woman is living there?
Are you married, living with, her parent?
Another question: Is this your house or the house of your spouse? Jointly, legally owned together?
I need to know more.
No judgement.
72
@rosa
Finally, a rational and diplomatic response. You sure you belong in the comments section of the Times?
Cheers.
29
@rosa
Especially within the context of the boyfriend being there for "several years" during which he might have been eligible for services as the child of drug addicts.
4
@rosa
*judgment*
;0
3
So many words...just say: out you go. You have a month.
9
Sell the car. Start there. State you need change and movement on the situation. Outline in writing what you want such as household chores, rent and an eventual exit date and give to them along with a serious talk. Avoid anger and take responsibility for having enabled them to lead stagnant lives. This will not be a fun conversation but is a necessary one.
34
If your child feels, in their 20s, that it's OK to expect you to support them completely, then it's definitely too late for them to learn otherwise in a painless way. The parent needs to admit to themselves that they failed to raise independent adults, and then choose an option: continue to infantilize the child, or force them to grow up by insisting that they support themselves (probably at the expense of losing their "love," at least temporarily). It should also be acknowledged that the infantilized child will never be able to transition successfully into adulthood. Dark, yes, but it's the difficult truth.
23
@PW
This is by far the best advice. The columnist really missed the mark with the wobbly suggestions. The parent and the "kids" in this situation are a mess. There is no way these young adults will mature unless they are confronted by painful reality.
1
My friend recently resolved this by deciding to sell his home. Years of encouragement, prodding, pleading and coaching had not worked. Both of the daughters quickly secured jobs and apartments.
There is an emotional stagnation that can occur while unemployed. With schedules and responsibilities, they became more vibrant, confident and have received promotions. This might not make sense for everyone, but in this case, selling the house and downsizing was effective parenting.
120
In regard to moochers: start by charging rent, and not a nominal amount. In my 20's (although I did have jobs), I remember moving in and out of my parent's house whenever it suited my living arrangements. I distinctly remember wondering at the time why they weren't making me pony-up for some of the expenses. Even I thought they were being imposed upon.
19
@MD. Did you offer to pay your way? I lived at home for a year after college and frequently offered to pay for things. Father always refused my money, but he still complained about the expense I was causing him.
Turn off the wi-fi and cable tv now. These kids are doing something all day and are probably using all of their time to play video games and wander the web. This is very motivating. Yes, I love my wi-fi very much but I earned it after working hard jogs for 35 years.
62
I turned 18 and my parents made me pay rent. A week after high school they stated they were moving and I had a week to find a place to live, job, and transport.(all on my dime no less). I did the same thing to my kid. He is just fine. It can be done.
21
@Aimee A. maybe in Montana it can be done. In some parts of the country you need $8,000 to secure a small apartment, and jobs pay $12/hour. This isn't 1970.
5
@Aimee A. a week seems needlessly harsh. Surely your parents knew they intended to move earlier than that and could have given you a bit more warning.
I would be hard-pressed to find somewhere to live in a week and I am employed full-time.
6
@Aimee A. I don't believe that for one second. And, if true, how cruel.
6
Re: letter #2 -- we have a similar situation in my family. My father's father (so we are told) died when my dad was a toddler. My grandmother remarried and had children with her second husband and never spoke about my dad's father. I always got the impression that there was more to the story, but also that it wasn't something that would ever be discussed.
If I were to do a DNA test and find potential connections, I would be interested in pursuing them. Not because I want a relationship with potential cousins, but because I would just like to know more about who my dad was and who I am.
I can understand the reluctance of the writer's uncle (cousin?) -- maybe he's afraid this person will try to claim some inheritance, or is embarrassed that a family "secret" might be revealed. But I even more relate to the person who is just interesting in knowing more about her family.
BTW -- if she is in fact the child of one of your cousins ... she's family, too.
24
In my view, and in my life experience, family secrets are a festering sore that infect not only those involved, but generations unborn.
2
Start by not paying ‘their’ bills. No fuss, no talking, what’s the problemo?
21
Yeah, hi. There's this new thing in America now called "the Armed Forces". There's an Army, a Navy, an Air Force, some group called The Marines, and I think, The Coast Guard. Oh yeah, something called The Reserves too.
Give them immediately responsibilities - cleaning, cooking, etc. Give them a month to find a job. There is exactly zero shortage of minimum wage jobs out there that will hire anyone, even through temp agencies. Tell them in no uncertain terms if both of those obligations aren't met they're homeless on the streets. Or....they can join the military like 100,000's other young aimless people who need discipline in order to learn self-discipline.
Either way you owe either one nothing and they have been, and will continue to, take advantage of you.
49
@Sparky you do know the military doesn't necessarily take all comers, right?
6
@SDC
With this endless war in the Middle East, I'm sure the military is starting to look twice at the available fodder.
1
There seems to be absolutely no blood lines shared among these people, why are you supporting them instead of a stranger off the streets? Give them a heads up that in 90 days the free ride is over.
I was given a ultimatum that when I was 18, go to school, get a job or get out. My dad got transferred to Tulsa before I turned 18 and that made the decision easy, no sane New Yorker would willingly go to Tulsa in 1978.
30
@Paulie
My father accepted a job transfer from New York City to a small central Ohio city in 1969. I was also 18. He couldn't wait to get out of NYC and its traffic. smog and dirt and general messiness to go to smaller, cleaner place where he could actually afford to purchase a real nice single family home instead of apartment living. The family with him and it was great!
5
@javamaster 18 and still living with mommy and daddy? I would hope that school was the reason.
In a family of four kids, none of us were living at home past 18. When you’re old enough to vote you’re a adult, not a child to be taken care of.
“(You don’t mention anyone else who has a say, so I assume that you’re the only parent in the picture.)” Mr. Appiah is being generous here. I can’t help but wonder if the other parent is there as well, but the letter writer is looking for ammunition in a debate about what to do. If the other parent is there, his/her POV must be considered as well.
21
@Alice Brooklyn But why is the step-parent financing all of this?
4
@Alice Brooklyn yes, that curiosity definitely seeps through the lines here!
LW1 - I knew what to expect as I started to read the responses, and a part of me agreed, but then I thought about self and my desire to have someone other than self take an interest in me when i was at a low point in my young life. The easiest thing to do would be to kick them both out, but the right thing is to show them how to be adults and set a path forward (albeit with timelines and must be achieved milestones) trust it will pay dividends to your spirit
34
@Kenneth Morrison
If the step mother hasn't shown them how to be adults by now, she's obviously not capable of doing so. She needs to learn how to act like an adult herself and take charge of the situation.
"When is enough enough?"
NOW. Throw the freeloaders out.
BUT, whatever you do, do NOT reach a compromise where you charge them rent.
Once they are paying any form of rent, even in barter, they are officially tenants, and subject to whatever tenant protections and eviction proceedings may prevail in your jurisdiction.
You need to make a clean break here. Give them minimal notice, perhaps pay a deposit and first month's rent on a new place and the price of a moving truck, but get them out as soon as you possibly can. Once they know they're leaving, they have time to scheme up a way to force you to keep them.
We had to have the police remove my stepdaughter and her then-boyfriend. The officer, whom we had called to evict them, threw them out on the street after they spontaneously and falsely told him that we had assaulted them. They had no intention of ever leaving. We haven't had any contact with her in almost ten years, and it's a breath of fresh air.
54
@Eric Also, Give reasonable Financial GIFTS, NO LOANS - they will never be paid back and will poison the relationship forever .
8
Absolutely true, Errol.
The last contact I had with my stepdaughter was when she begged to borrow $300 for something really important to her. I am fortunate enough that that is not a huge amount of money for me and would have given it to her had she asked. But, after she borrowed it, she and her new boyfriend who was guaranteeing it because he was about to get paid, started tap dancing around, and, a mere two weeks later, essentially admitted they had no plan to pay it back.
I told her to keep it as a gift, turned off her cell phone (which we had been paying for years, so that she could "get work") and my wife and I have had no further contact with her.
And no, she hasn't tried to contact us either.
By the way, this was a person whom I physically threw out of the house when she was 18, and who caused severe facial injuries when she punched her mother at 17 — All of the incidents mentioned above occurred after that (the cop throwing her out was in her late twenties) and could have been avoided had we broken off contact with her then, but we were soft-hearted and lived to regret it.
Letter Writer 1 — Throw her out and don't think about her again.
10
Cut the kids spending money. Get a gas card for gas only, and keep the wheels available. Tell them what chores they are responsible for at home. Provide only the minimal basic nutrition. Cancel your cable. Tell them they need to get jobs, and ask each day where they applied. Start squeezing the boy first, as he has NO CALL on you at all.
Because you have been enabling them, you will need to share in the sacrifice to make living at your house no great comfortable place.
Tell them you will cut off all support at some date certain. If necessary, don’t bring any food into the house, and eat your meals out.
18
I don’t understand your inability to act like if not the step parent an adult. My daughter worked, help pay for her education and recently bought her own house. We would have gladly have helped more but she insists she is able to support herself. You have got to set limits, chores till they move, and they must daily job search. Do you want to be supporting 40 year old immature children? Shame! Tough love. If they refuse you start taking things from them. They need an iron clad date for finding new dwelling.
8
Sorry, not a regular reader of this section. Is there every any follow-up? I'd love to know how the LW1 situation evolves.
7
@midwesterner no, there is no follow-up
1
@midwesterner
No, sadly, there is no follow-up. Happily, next week's column will provide new material to grind your teeth over.
14
@midwesterner
lol. we never know how the story ends or if the people that write into the advice column actually read our comments. However, if this women was confused about what to do, she now has about 150 opinions from across the country to consider.
LW1, it's not difficult for people bro start their own business in the US. A lot of immigrants do it, so your stepdaughter and her boyfriend can do it as well. And it doesn't involve much money to start. They may mawn lawns, like another replier mentioned, they may paint houses, do cleaning, all kinds of things. They need some time to get organized, as you have enabled them to become the lazybums that they are. But this "some time" doesn't mean a year. It means two or three months to get reasonably established. And RIGHT NOW you can demand that they start doing all the house chores, so that they can pay you for the free rent and all the other free stuff they've been getting from you. If they're not willing to do house work right now, you'll have to make them leave even sooner, because they're not taking you seriously. If you don't learn to use tough love, you're going to be their slave for the rest of your life.
6
@Hln
Young people want to start their adult life living in luxury apartments and eating gourmet meals daily. They are also uninterested in entry-level jobs or physical labor. There was an item on the local news about teens where a 19 year old rejected a job at Target wrangling shopping carts because it was beneath him.
1
I wonder if there is more to the step story. Perhaps the writer is a window/er and the house was the property of the "freeloading" daughters dead parent. Perhaps there is both guilt and grief wrapped up in this. Money that would have gone to the daughter upon death when to this new spouse instead?
5
if one thing bothers me about this column, it's the dearth of qualifiers like "in my humble opinion." The author speaks so assuredly about matters like privacy from genetic searches, as though he has thought through all the issues and determined an objective moral truth. leaving aside the impossibility of the latter, he gives scant evidence of the former.
like a nonagenarian's opinion about how best to spend one's time, these are just that - opinions.
5
@Alex
Agree. One of the things that surprised me about reading adoption message boards is the large number of adoptees in their eighties who still are searching for information about their parents. Any scrap of information. They are still yearning to know their original names, their nationalities, the reasons they were sold/given to strangers, etc.
(For people interested in the free DNA board that cops are using to solve cold cases, it's GEDmatch.com.)
4
Think carefully about tossing out the mooching kids. I have a acquaintance who had a grown son that wouldn't leave and didn't work. My acquaintance finally told him he had to leave and gave him a deadline. She even offered to pay the deposit on an apartment and to help him write a resume and prepare for job interviews. He made no moves to go, and he became enraged when she reminded him. He assaulted her, she had to call police, he went to jail, she finally recovered, but is brokenhearted. She had no idea that could happen. He had never been violent before. People sometimes do desperate things to preserve the status quo. I've advise the letter writer to be cautious, and have someone else present when he/she has the discussion with the kids.
43
Truly a scary story. I hope that the woman whose son went to jail for assaulting her does not plan to be alone with him again. Shocking story. I have two grown sons and I can’t imagine either of them doing such a thing.
12
@Ms. Pea
Agree. That's why I suggested earlier that telling them she's moving would grease the skids. Maybe having a stager and a real estate agent come in to measure, etc., would help get the "kids" out.
2
@Ms. Pea
My parents coddled their trophy son since birth and ended up with a drunk-druggie freeloading degenerate slug who refused to go to college, get a real job and move from their home. That was mostly thanks to narcissist mom, but both parents were spineless enablers of a son who had been cold, selfish and calculating even as a boy and certainly as a teen and 20-something. He never moved. They died and he still is in their home. The number of relatives and professional associates who defended this and still think this is normal is astonishing, so it must happen more than most of us realize. It seems to be the sons and not the daughters who become squatters, maybe because in the highly religious son culture the lazy, worthless son inherits it all anyway. And yes, he was violent to both parents, to me, to anyone who crossed him or expected any semblance of character and maturity. He still is violent, selfish, and worthless - as he nears 70 years old.
5
Some ideas: ... 1. The layabouts may be suffering from low level depression. Research this. Find resources. Then discuss that possibility with them and ask them what their thoughts are on that possibility. be prepared to share why you think this could be possible (based on their behavior). .... 2. Start a project with them. I suggest cooking. Propose that you will teach them how to cook and they will then do all the cooking within 6 weeks. Trust me, young people like learning how to cook. Include baking. ... 3. They have a car. Put them in charge of doing all the house shopping (with your lists). If they don't leave no food in the house. Go out to eat. Give them no money to eat. Be cheerful about it all. ... 4. Tell them they need to draw up a flyer announcing to neighbors that they are available for chores for a modest fee. Discuss with them the kind of chores, asking first for their suggestions. Discuss fees, asking first for their ideas. be prepared with questions in response such as "Would that price be too high for neighbors?" and "Do you think that's too low?" Have them discuss the best people to give the flyers to, and how to distribute the flyers (at supermarkets/ door to door?) and ... 5. make a deal. They must volunteer at a homeless shelter or food pantry etc five days a week or there will be no meals for them at your house. The homeless shelter will give them an inkling of what awaits them if you throw them out. ... I'd start with the cooking project.
15
@John Mack
Sounds like a lot of effort to expend on a pair of freeloaders. Why not just let them figure out how to cook and clean and hold down a job on their own. After all they are "adults".
1
Mother and stepmother weighing in here:
Twenty isn't very old. They're not thirty, or even twenty-five. Your obligation is to your stepdaughter (does the fact that she's a 'step' daughter matter, by the way--from the sounds of it, she's your child) not the boyfriend. Most twenty year olds, or many, receive some help from their parents, especially in this economy.
1. Either she gets a job or goes to school, or she has to leave.
2. If she's old enough to have a live-in relationship with a boyfriend, then she needs to get her own apartment.
3. Whomever lives under your roof has to help (that is, be assigned chores); the rules are your rules. That's the deal.
If you do decide that they need to leave, give them six weeks. One month isn't enough time, and it feels punitive. After all, you've created this situation, by allowing it to occur in the first place, and then enabling it. So you have to bear some responsibility, and model (even if you don't feel) compassion. It's awful to not know how to start an adult life--and if you are a parent, you bear some responsibility for that, too. It's scary even if you graduate from college with a good degree, and work experience, especially today!
47
In regard to the request of the 90 year old woman. Yes, tell her and also relay the half-brother's response. Most of her family has passed by now and, never knowing her father, she would like to have a mystery solved and maybe just understand, as much as possible, the history of her own family. The benefit of the doubt should go to her in this situation. Allow her to close the door on what might have been a hurtful part of her life.
16
For the step-mother enabling the girl and her boyfriend, there's a phrase I hear often: Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Make a plan, lay it out, and forge on.
18
As far as the stepdaughter and the boyfriend, you've enabled them enough. They are taking advantage of you and it has to stop. I don't buy into the "some kids are slow to mature" argument that many people will use to excuse this behavior. You mature by taking on adult responsibilities. Sit them down and make it clear that as long as they are living with you, they will be expected to contribute in some way, whether it be by getting job and paying for food, etc. or helping with household chores. I would also set a deadline for them to move out. Perhaps 60 days, which will give them time to look for work and alternative housing. And stick to it. Where is the girl's father in all this? He needs to take some responsibility here too. The only problem you may run into is a legal one. The problem with allowing people to live with you is it's not always easy to get them out. Seek legal advice. Believe me, as harsh as it sounds, you will ultimately be doing them a favor by forcing them to stand on their own two feed. Good luck!
5
LW1: I can't believe this letter even had to be written. Who are these people? They're adults, yet they don't work, they don't go to school, they don't help around the house, and the adults seem afraid to broach these issues with them. Hate to sound like an old fogey, but I worked my way through college while living at home and contributing to the household. I'd say both the children and their parents need to grow up.
15
You don't need a college degree to find a job. There is plenty of work out there for people who don't have degrees. A child may need a place to live in a world with escalating rents but no adult should be just hanging around the house. As for the boyfriend, it's your choice to decide whether or not you want to help him out. You might just want to think about whether he is helping or hindering your daughter's ability to move forward. There is nothing wrong about saying that it's time for him to find a place of his own. You aren't running a hostel.
7
To Name Withheld: You are not certain you have identified the correct person as your new cousin's father. (And her half-brother) There are numerous support groups on Facebook (and no doubt elsewhere) for people like your 80-year old cousin. If you (or your cousin) search for "DNA" or "Genetic Genealogy", you will find people who are knowledgeable about genetic genealogy and happy to help your cousin confirm your research, or confirm your answer is wrong and help her find the correct answer. It's very possible her DNA test results can already give her the answer, or enough clues that she can figure out for sure who her father was.
At that point, it really is up to her whether she wants to reach out to 90yo man (if your hunch is confirmed), or to any other biological relative. If you have been asked by anyone to stop contact, you really need to honor that request. It's not your job to get in the middle of contact between the parties.
3
Why would LW2 seek advice from someone who is least likely to welcome this woman's inquiry due to possible loss of inheritance? LW2 has set himself to be an intermediary for information and should have forwarded the query to the possible father or his legal representative. By not passing the query directly to the presumptive father, he's interfering with rights this woman may have.
All of this seems rather contrived to make LW2 self-important in some way. Knowing the father has multiple children, he involved the 90 yr old son for some unnamed reason. The father is over 100. LW2's obligation has always been to send him the query.
I suspect LW2's family want him to leave the matter alone because he's a meddler. If he was doing private/hobby research, he wouldn't have a public profile. In this case, he's invited a query that he's failed to forward to the appropriate legal recipient in a timely manner. His delay could cost someone her lawful inheritance.
3
@knitfrenzy -- given that the presumptive father's son is 90 years old, my guess is that LW2 hasn't reached out to the presumptive father because he's dead.
16
@knitfrenzy I assume that the father is deceased? Although this wasn't stated, given the ages of the "children", it seems a fair assumption...
9
@knitfrenzy we are hobby genealogists and we have made our information publicly available on several sites. It’s the way relatives contact you. We’ve had all sorts of distant cousins contact us and helped one man find a family branch that he had been looking for in the wrong country. Many genealogists make their family trees available.
3
When the step daughter affirmatively refuses to help, affirmatively refuses to pay rent, affirmatively refuses to get a job, then the mom is no longer creating an obligation, but is a possible victim of parental abuse.
I think by the age of 20 an adult child knows what is expected.
2
Regarding the stepdaughter situation, I'd really like to know whose house they're living in. Is it her childhood home? Was it her father's home? How long has this stepmother been in the picture? Does she now own this home, or just have life tenancy in her stepdaughter's house?
Stepfamilies are very complicated, and so is estate planning in such situations.
15
It might be harder that LW thinks to get their stepdaughter and BF to step up. I'd start by asking both kids, or just the daughter, what their plans are for future contributions TO THE HOUSEHOLD. Not jobs, or anything. Just "how are you planning to contribute?" as an open-ended but very pointed question.
The next thing is for LW to start issuing some direct orders, while LW is also engaged in direct household labor themselves. "You, take out the trash. You, take care of the dishes. I'll be in here vacuuming."
First, chores. Next, rent! Once everyone's in the habit of working together cooperatively, you can bring up the idea of household expenses. You could share with them what those expenses actually are, and then say that you'd like them to start contributing X a month by such and such a date. This gives them some time to at least start looking for work.
If they feel humiliated, all the better, maybe they'll move out on their own. Or, maybe they'll feel some relief at being more fully included as adults in the room?
3
What I often wonder about in these cases where adult children remain at home as in the case of the first letter writer is what did the child expect when they were growing up? As a parent, our children were taught from a very young age, as my wife and I were, what was expected of them as they matured. That is that they were to get an education, prepare to become independent adults and ultimately go on their own and become independent. The possibility of remaining under our roof indefinitely was never even presented as a possibility. Somewhere along the line, this parent failed to teach this lesson to the stepdaughter and to help prepare her for this eventuality.
10
Wonderful advice on both counts! In the first case, the step parent is obviously well off. Other than feeling annoyed with the unnecessary company, they do not seem overly bothered about the financial strain on their household. I suspect it may be a case of not really bonding closely with the step child. The latter using the parent because she sort of took her actual parent away. The support of said daughter for you is only through associated guilt. Why not sit them down and find out why they are here. Ask them to move away, perhaps help with the rent for the first 6 months. Tell them that’s all you can do. Then just before the 6 months are up, make sure you go off on a long holiday. Lock and secure your place well :-)). The kids may succeed or more likely they will be broke after 6 months and get back to stage 1. I don’t much believe in all the emotional trauma stuff. Most kids are resilient and quite self centered, they only play the victim card if they need to exploit a situation. Get yourself out, or at least if extremely well off, get them off your immediate back. At least you will have your peace back.
7
The unkind comments about LW2's motivations are unwarranted. Nothing in the letter suggests anything other than a genuine desire to be helpful.
Through DNA testing and historical research, I recently discovered that I have no biological ties to the man I'd always believed to be my maternal grandfather. Instead, my mother was the product of a relationship between my then-single grandmother and a married man more than 80 years ago. I don't intend to reach out the the man's direct descendants - I don't want to upset them - but I did contact a newly-discovered cousin with a few questions. He's been extremely gracious and kind, for which I'm very grateful as I grapple with this discovery. LW2 is in a position to bring comfort to the newly-discovered cousin.
20
@Reader
If LW2 had a genuine desire to be helpful, he would've forwarded the woman's request to the man he believes to be her father. The father could choose how to respond.
By polling his immediate family & a person w/a vested interested in NOT disclosing information (the half-brother), LW2 is doing nothing helpful for the woman & his delay in responding to her query could be harmful given the ages of those involved. He set himself up to be an intermediary & that's exactly what he should be - one who forwards inquiries. He's not the arbiter of who receives information. If he can't do that, then LW2 should remove his public profile.
3
@knitfrenzy Given the ages the father is deceased. The 90 year old is probably a half brother. Even if he doesn’t want to talk to her she can find out if he has descendants and ask if they’d be willing to take DNA tests. DNA testing is duel edged in that you may find out things you don’t want to know. The genealogist we worked with found out her biological father was her next door neighbor. Obviously it caused some distress in her family.
5
@Cindy Mackie
There was nothing in the facts to suggest that the father was deceased, that he had no legal representative, and why the 90 yr old son was selected by LW2 over other children. The woman made an inquiry of a man who purports to be the family historian; he should've responded to her w/his research & not polled one of several possible relatives, his own immediate family, & the NYT. Either he's public & helpful or he's not.
Of course, DNA testing provides information that someone doesn't want to know, but that is the risk of taking the test.
1
If "we" took the boyfriend in several years ago, how come the question is about "I"?
I think this is a family fight in disguise. I strongly suspect the birth parent is still around and doesn't object to the daughter's and boyfriend's presence.
The letter writer objects and writes from the first person to express their side of the argument.
Where is the biological parent? What do they think? It's not "my house my rules" if there are 2 parents there.
69
@Talbot. That's what it seems like to me, too.
3
20 years old mean they are both adults. They EACH have to pay rent, car insurance, gas, food, cell phone. You are enabling them and they are overtly taking advantage of you.
Rented rooms go for at least $1,000 to $2,000 a month (depending on what part of the country you live in) and they don't include free food, cell phone, car or car insurance.
Sit them both down and tell them that they are adults and that you can no longer support them. Tell them that you have been more than generous, but it's time to move out and give them a time limit (for example 3 months). In the interim, tell them they have to get jobs (always jobs at Starbucks, the mall, groceries stores, hotels, manual labor) pay rent, do chores (give them a daily list). They can rent a room, live with a group of friends, on campus, or get an efficiency apt.
Even if they enroll in school, they still have to work full-time and support themselves. You can still drop off a bag of groceries a week or pay for a monthly bus pass to show support, if you are inclined.
You should get support or counseling to empower yourself. Otherwise, you are going to remain a doormat and they are going to be in your home for years to come.
p.s Don't feel guilty, as many of us went to college, worked, took out student loans, lived in dorms, or with roommates, lived on a budget, etc. We became successful adults and better off for the hard work it took to get there.
23
@Hope Exactly.
2
@PrairieFlax
There is no meanness or ill-intention in the post. She wrote into an advice column for advice and I'm weighing in. My point is they are adults who have to be responsible and there are options to get out of the situation.
p.s. I graduated from college in Massachusetts 20 years ago and my rent was much higher than $700 back then.
5
Each case of finding an unknown DNA relative is unique. There's no "one rule fits all" in these situations. At the age of five I realized my soon-to-be-born cousin had disappeared, but waited until my teens to ask one of my parents where this baby went, and the gender. In the meantime I mentioned this pregnancy to no one. Sixty years later we found each other via DNA testing. We both couldn't be more delighted! Health problems on that side of the family were shared with New Cousin, as they should be.
On the other side of my family, DNA testing proved that one of my long-dead grandfathers was a pedophile resulting in pregnancy. My match's family wanted to know which of the three men who raped her that night was the one that stuck. Their decades of agony were finally over, and were very grateful for my help. This same grandfather also left another woman with child who looks like an identical twin of my parent on this side. This family, generations of them at this point, are also very grateful for my help in solving the "Who was he and what was he like?" urge. However, it was difficult to let them know that he was the "Head Lawman" of the town!
14
I went through something similar when my son was 20. He was addicted to World of Warcraft and got fired from job after job after job. I made it clear that he couldn’t stay, thinking that he had to hit rock bottom before he could pick himself up. He did hit rock bottom after he left. The only time I helped him was when I gave him a trip to the dentist for a birthday gift. Long story short: he is now 38 years old, getting straight A’s, and is on his way to becoming an engineer.
101
@Jane One of my work colleagues told his son years ago that in 60 days he had to be out of the house. The kid become a responsible adult. Meanwhile my ex, who could never hold a job, is currently living with his almost 90 year old mother. She was and is an enabler.
3
I totally agree with other readers that LW1 needs to set ultimatums and deadlines for action. Something no one seems to address is the fact that LW1 mentions that the boyfriend moved in with them because his parents are both addicts. There could very well be trauma, family disfunction or mental illness associated with this history. It seems LW1 has been pushed beyond the point of caring, but if they still care for this young man, LW1 should encourage/facilitate the boyfriend to start seeing a therapist or joining a group like AlAnon. Perhaps that could be a requirement along with the completion of chores, finding employment, etc. He may find some momentum.
38
We've had a few "surprises" come out of DNA testing in my family. A cousin who is now 72 years old born to my now deceased aunt at age 16 was one. No one knew about her until after my aunt had died though cousin was in contact with her, aunt did not want to acknowledge her. My adopted cousin (of same aunt, who had no other biological children) recently found out she was the eldest of 6 children born to her biological mother. Again, when she tried to connect to her bio mother, there was no interest. Glad to say the next generation was able to form a relationship (cousin to her adopted mom's child, and cousin to at least one of her bio sister's so far). Every situation is different, I feel for my aunt and cousin that they were not able to bring these relatives into our family when we were closer and got together more often, as they would have been warmly welcomed.
11
My fiancé was adopted and has no interest in contacting his biological family. None. And he wouldn’t welcome being contacted.
3
@Mary A
Some adoptees tell those around them they have "no interest" in learning their family history because that's what many expect/demand of them.
The DNA sites are a great gift to those who were victims of the adoption racket and yearn to know their family history. (GEDmatch.com is free.)
@Mary A Then if someone contacts him he’ll have to say so. Even if he never does a DNA test, he could be found if someone genetically close to him does. That’s how the police are tracking down these criminals from DNA found at long ago crime sites. Sometimes it takes someone who’s an expert in genealogical DNA to figure it out but it could probably be done.
LW 2: Before the advent of DNA testing a previously unknown half sibling tracked us down the old fashioned way, by hiring a private detective. I'll never forget how some of our extended family quite gleefully relished the soap opera playing out in our family.
It was an incredibly emotionally fraught time for those who were more directly involved and we didn't really appreciate the gleeful rubbernecking from certain family members. Your zealous detective work sounds a lot like that and it's not a good look. Did you really want to help this woman find her father that much or were you enjoying uncovering another person's secrets?
Having said that, you found what this person is looking for and you should tell her. And include the response from her half brother. She should know what she's getting into if she chooses to contact him - not all 'finding the birth family' scenarios play out in the way the adopted child would wish.
41
@Jennifer The woman is 80. It's about time she learned who her father was.
27
@Jennifer “Zealous”? “Not a good look?” Is it possible your reaction to LW2’s situation has a bit of a warp to it because of your own family’s struggle? It seems a tad harsh to me. My family had a previously unknown cousin show up - my father’s generation - and we all reacted with some surprise, but also a warm welcome. No one who was a sibling to the father in question (long since deceased) was very surprised, though! I agree with your conclusion that LW2 should share what she knows.
8
@Jennifer
The woman asked for information. LW2 has instead polled one of the possible father's children, his own family, and a newspaper columnist. I agree w/you that he enjoys his role as information gatekeeper a bit too much. Pass the info on already.
3
I apologize for the error. I meant to type:
The man I hired for lawn work started about 6 years ago and now has so many clients that he can not accept any new ones.
3
Stepdaughter might just be slow to mature and move out. Cut her some slack and work with her to reach that point. The boyfriend is a completely different story. Your home has never been his home. You have no family ties. Charge him market rent and if he can't pay, evict him. He's probably part of the problem. He solved his inability to support himself by moving in with you. That's the sign of a moocher. Moochers tend to suggest to others that the 'rat race' should be avoided and who wants to get up every morning to go to some dumb job? Not a good influence for the stepdaughter.
66
@SAO I think the step-daughter plays a role and should also step up. The earlier responsibility is learned the better and I would imagine she would feel better about herself and her situation if she starts carving out a path for herself. The bf is another story, if he is part and parcel of the issue, then a plan needs to be created to get him moving along and out. I am hoping they are being responsible in at least one area of this situation so there are no "surprise" babies.
13
@SAO
I see it a little differently. Both his parents are addicts. He is not necessarily a moocher. Maybe he doesn't have any guidance or he is doing his best given his unfortunate past. I don't think she 'owes' him the support but I don't think he's necessarily a 'bad influence' for anyone. Maybe he's just recovering from his neglectful past.
14
@SAO The BF did not move in because he couldn't support himself! LW#1 invited him to move in because both his parents are addicts! Doesn't anyone read the column before replying!? Everyone is so sure the BF is some malign, slothful influence and there is zero evidence in the letter that that is so.
1
They are adults.
You have every right to hold them accountable as adults.
Your home, your rules. Period. Which means you get to dictate their life day by day, moment by moment until they get off their lazy backsides and start behaving as contributing adults in society.
Personally, I would give them 30 days notice, and then kick them to the curb..... giving them the option to negotiate mutually favorable terms to stay (which includes being responsible and contributing to the household both economically and effort wise) ... which gives you some real control.. because if they do not negotiate in good faith and step up.. out they go.
66
@Chuck
There was a time I thought like you. Now I realize they would need more time because the step mom has taught them that its ok to do nothing because she accepted it for years.
We need to teach children from an early age to be responsible. Chores, saving to buy things rather than getting every whim they desire.
You cant let a person do whatever they like for 20 years and then kick them to the curb when you have some responsibility for how they live.
7
Is it that hey aren't making any money to contribute?
Give them some things from around the house and tell them to start selling on eBay. Then send them to storage unit auctions and garage sales for items to sale. Yes, it is possible to net five digits if one WORKS at it. They could also set up a FIVRR account where some make into the six digits - though most more modest amounts. You could encourage them to learn how to code websites where people are also making six digits working from home while living as layabouts.
Alternatively, if you just want them out of the house. You should let them know there welcome is coming to an end. In which case, they should get started on the above income generating skills sooner.
Give the woman the information. A ninety year old man has the skills to meet her and decide if he wants any future contact. He may have been wondering for years. Strangely, relatives have ulterior motives from keeping others away. They have some fear "their" inheritance will go to someone else.
Remember: Be kind to strangers for angels they may be.
15
The stepfather should check local laws. Some states/cities have tenancy laws that could make it difficult to evict them, even if they weren't paying anything. Gather the legal information, if any, and devise a plan. Definitely start shared housekeeping and food preparation for starters.
23
@Madrid
If it's illegal to throw them out, them make a plan and throw them out with all their things, all at once, with no warning,
Possession is 9/10s of the law, and once they and all their stuff is out and the locks are changed, the legal work of getting back in will be too hard for them to do.
4
@Eric
I had a housemate who refused to leave (I owned the property). I gave him a written 30-day notice which he ignored. On the 30th day I called the moving and storage company and had them box up all his stuff and put it in storage. It was up to him to get it out. And thus I got him out.
1
@Ravenna
I did the same thing with my stepdaughter when she was 18, after she did a "bad thing" at home.
Physically threw her out (in the snow), then scoured the house for every item of hers, packed them all neatly in boxes, loaded them in the truck, drove to a storage place, rented a space, paid three months rent in advance, loaded them in, and the next day told her she could come by and pick up the key.
Unfortunately, we let her come back several years later. Never again.
i don't agree with "indulgence plus time equals obligation". on the contrary, all the favors which the step-parent was not obliged to give but did so over time have cancelled out any obligation. he should give these two the boot.
23
@R
Especially if the kids are affirmatively refusing to contribute.
"Mop the floors." "No, I won't."
3
On the DNA issue: If the writer feels that the woman has a right to know her place in the family, could he provide the info only on written assurance from the woman that she will not contact the 90-year-old or anyone who objects? If necessary get it in a form that makes it a legal obligation. Or he can inform the woman that his family objects to his sharing and he is therefore unable to do so. If she is looking for info, she should be somewhat mollified, and since she knows the writer she might be able to examine his family tree on her own, using such things as census records. If she is looking for connection, this tells her it is not forthcoming.
5
Once the mooches are entrenched it is pretty hard to get them out, but here we go: Set deadlines; stick to them; and be willing to ultimately kick them out. Also, load them up with home chores make it a less pleasant place for them to be. Has the Dad of the stepdaughter been enabling her all this time? If so united front is paramount she will get nowhere without that. If the husband and father of this young lady is in the picture and isn't on board Stepmom will need to be the one that moves out.
Here we go again with the repetitious DNA question. Technically I guess you can share the info with the potential stepsister, but it seems like you are an awfully collateral relative to be sticking your nose in that far. I agree with the 90 year old man. You seem to be enjoying stirring the DNA pot just a little too much.
22
@Marti Mart You make a great point about making the situation uncomfortable. It's like that pebble in your shoe, the more you keep walking and not doing anything about it, the more annoying it is. Be annoying, Step Mom, they will thank you for it some day!
Re those live-at-home kids: You are enabling their slacker behavior; stop it.
Make it clear they should get jobs, help around the house, support the household financially, or depart. Set a reasonable target date and stick by it or you will forever be plagued by these moochers.
Don’t ask, don’t beg, don’t cajole; speak clearly and frankly.
Think tough love—it’s for their benefit, not just yours.
154
@Concerned Citizen That's unnecessarily harsh, don't you think? This woman was kind enough to take in the boyfriend because his parents are addicts. It's clear both he and her stepdaughter need a firm push in the direction of independence and responsibility, but there's no need to be cruel!
5
The first letter writer can tell the moochers that s/he has decided to sell the house and downsize to a tiny apartment. S/he needs to prepare the house for the sale. The moochers will have to be out in one month, leaving the car behind along with any expectation of future money.
The second letter writer should tell the old man to mind his own business. (Can't guess why s/he "reached out" to him in the first place.) His father chose to be on the DNA site, where he could hope/expect to be found by relatives. He will be happy that his daughter wants contact with him.
8
Seeing as the son is 90 years old I doubt the father is alive or ever submitted his DNA to the site.
37
@Pecan that is not what happened. Neither the 90-year-old man nor his father are on the site, it is another relative who showed as a partial match - the 90-year-old's cousin's child
32
@Jane
You're right. Sorry.
Imho, the letter writer has no "obligations," but after 40 years of genealogy, I would think the letter writer would answer the woman's request for information. Everyone has a right to know their origins, ancestry, etc. Why hide the father's identity? Give the woman the name of the man whose genes she carries, whose ancestors are her ancestors, etc. Be nice. Be kind.
8
Dear Chump: It sounds like her parent is no longer in the picture as you say "living with 'me,'" not "us." Give them fair warning (6 weeks or so?). Pay no more bills. Post a list of chores with a dollar amount each one is worth for the next 6 weeks (e.g., clear table and wash dinner dishes $5.00). Sell the car. In six weeks, you can drive them to the shelter, because there is little chance they will get it together to find a job or place to live. You will be doing them a favor. Right now you are "enabling" or colluding with their shiftless patterns.
34
DNA profiler:
Nice that you're interested in your family tree being public, but one doubts your entire family feels that way. It's rude, rude, rude and I'd shun you, as I do the person in my family (a distant in-law) who does this.
Leave it alone.
31
@Kate - Before the wonders of cheap DNA testing, the homemade genealogists were extremely active online, posting all their 'results' and, what was worse, their conclusions. I stumbled upon one of these trees purporting to be part of my own family line, only to discover that every element of it was wrong. Dates, names, locations, births, deaths - all simply not true. And not only third cousins, whose backgrounds I might not have known - me! My sister! It was all dreadful. I contacted the individual (oh s/he was so eager to be contacted) and told them to knock it off. Take their nonsense off the public forum and stop their silliness. S/he did. It's one thing to have had a relative engaged in detailed, specific and professional investigation, recorded for the benefit of the family - it's quite another to have someone snooping around unable to determine whether 'X' is 'X' or 'Y'.
20
@Kate. Why? I'm just curious. I have no interest in genealogy, but a relative of mine is really interested in it and it and does all the online and DNA stuff and it hasn't ever occurred to me to care. Is there a reason I should be concerned?
3
@reader
In an era where we have little privacy left and no say in that, our finances, our history, sites we visit, being Bluetoothed tracked in stores to see where we stop, we're tracked and all data stored, facial recognition software is used by "authorities," this adds a critical dimension to institutions' knowledge about us. Is it being misused now? Maybe. Will it be more possible in the future? Why take a chance?
Insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, employers, etc., are eager to get medical info on us, and DNA results give them just that. We don't even have to take the tests, just significant relatives.
I also believe the cold cases that are being solved by using DNA databases to find the killer's family are double edged swords. But that's me.
I'm a senior technology worker. Info on us is easy to hack or purchase. We don't need to help.
1
LW2:
Someone who does not know who her father is had a father who abandoned her, in this case, NINETY year ago. She has some claim to him, whatever that is. His son does not want that claim to be known, made known, or whatnot.
Consider some possibilities, both good and bad...
* A large inheritance awaits her, unclaimed.
* Her father was an unpleasant (or even a criminal) person and her erstwhile family is no group of gems. She's best leave them alone as her half-brother suggests.
* Nothing particularly good or bad will happen, but the fact that this man, who is long dead father's a child (out of wedlock) will cause some mild scandal now, 90 years later if it becomes known, at least in the family.
* Her grandchildren and great-grandchildren might or might not be welcome with open arms.
Certainly, you should not keep this information from her. You should also probably tell her that her half-brother didn't seem to have any interest in hearing from her. This does not mean that none of her *other* relatives would, tho.
---
LW1:
As far as your daughter w/the feckless BF. Parents do not get to be addicts without there being underlying problems. The son may or may not have the same underlying personality. That helps your daughter not at all. While you have a responsibility to your daughter, you have none to him. He is not your child. He might be a charming young man (this is a RED FLAG). Launch this young man with or without your daughter:
Job.
Chores.
Responsibility.
14
To name withheld: tell you step-daughter and her boyfriend that starting in 90 days you are going to require them to pay half of all bills or move out. That gives them 90 days to find a way to make money.
Right now Baby Boomers are needing help taking care of housework and lawn work. The man I hired for lawn work started about 6 years ago and now has so many clients that he can accept any new ones. He began in his 40's when the machinist shop he worked for closed and he couldn't find any one to employ him. He began leaving business cards in mailboxes in the neighborhoods where he lives. He receives 20€ an hour working for us, that is 80€ every two weeks.
My housekeeper only works for us for 3 hours per week and she gets paid 13.33€. She found a job in housekeeping at the local hospital.
In both cases we report their income and pay into their social security. They both work 12 hour days and they both support their family.
It wasn't much different for me when I divorced my husband I had never finished my education and found myself the sole support of 3 kids under 10yo. I cleaned houses, and made clothing, toys, and painted houses while I was also continuing my education. My oldest daughter was responsible for watching the kids sleep at night.
There is no reason what so ever that you step daughter and her boyfriend shouldn't be working. You aren't doing anyone a favor by allowing them to continue living as irresponsible children.
113
@Susannah Allanic
I'm assuming that's 13.33€ per hour, and not 13.33€ for the whole three hours (as ambiguously stated), since the minimum wage in France this year is €10.03.
1
Re DNA testing:
I have a large, rancorous family who were always fighting and disagreeing with each other over major, minor and nonexistent issues.
At any one time it seemed half the family members were persona non grata to the others, which meant family reunions or even holiday get-togethers were few and far between. If in adulthood I saw my several siblings every 5 or 10 years, that was mutually acceptable. Indeed, I currently see my wife’s siblings more often than I ever did my own, perhaps because we don’t have all the life-long, toxic family baggage to contend with.
I have done several years’ worth of very detailed on-line genealogy research on my family and ancestors, but I won’t have my DNA tested because of privacy issues. Besides, the idea that DNA testing might reveal “lost” or unknown relatives is not at all appealing. Do I want an unknown child or half-sibling or cousin showing up on my computer screen or, worse yet, unannounced on my doorstep? Not high on my bucket list.
35
@Mon Ray "Do I want an unknown child or half-sibling or cousin showing up on my computer screen or, worse yet, unannounced on my doorstep?" I would actually love that.
35
It doesn’t require DNA for a family to be disrupted. We had 2 unknown half-siblings contact us after my parents died. The only way to describe my feelings was that night I felt my father die a second time. They were looking for family- they almost destroyed mine.
6
@Dora By no fault of their own, of course. It's normal and very human to want a family, or to want to belong somewhere and not have to live your life like you are a secret, or you are wrong for simply existing. It's not their fault that someone produced them in circumstances that were unfair to them and deprived them of family. I think these people who seek their families through DNA tests should be taken seriously, and the blame should be placed where it belongs, which is not on them. We all learn that our parents aren't perfect as we get older. I have seen mine make some very questionable decisions and life choices that I can in no way comprehend. But that's them, and I can still love and appreciate them for who they are, and for who they were for me growing up.
15
LW#1: Please let your husband handle moving these two young adults along in their journey. If you intervene at all, you are painting a target on your back.
That said, you may want to consider withdrawing your financial support for the situation by separating your finances from your husband's finances (if they aren't separate already). Household bills will no longer be 50-50. They will now be 75- 25 because you are only one of four adults in the house. If your husband is okay with the situation, let him pay for it. Not you.
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Brilliant advice, especially about the MONEY.
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@Phyliss Dalmatian
assumes the spouse is in the picture. He could be dead, ill, long gone. She doesn't mention him so it is safe to say he is not around
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@Cali
Your advice assumes the stepmother has independent wealth or a paying job. If the stepmother is still married to the father of this freeloading stepdaughter, I suspect that she may be in the role of a traditional homemaker, thus her focus on the household chores and her failure to set limits in her own household.
2
The answer to the first letter is certainly reasonable given the limited information but that missing information might make all of the difference. There are people, I've known them both intimately and second hand, who are simply not able to accept the responsibility of independent living-of taking care of themselves. They aren't necessarily autistic or anything diagnosable and the reason they are as they are isn't entirely clear from their background either. It is just what they are. They have no sense of pride in themselves or shame for not being self reliant. They are in short absolutely dependent and with no apparent insight into the consequences of their dependency for themselves or others.
If you kick those kinds of people out they will be homeless and wonder the streets. If one is dealing with that kind of problem the essential question becomes whether or not the person responsible for them can deal with the guilt. Not really an "ethical" question as much as one of personal temperament. So the necessary information to give a more complete response is just how capable are they of living on their own and, in case they can't, is the responsible party up to rationalizing the result.
25
Checking in as a Person in the Behavioral Health field. These situations are so very difficult and I’ve seen psychiatric units and detox units filled with young people who are struggling. I don’t know if they are using or somewhere along the line lost their way. I would strongly suggest finding a good therapist- either for the family or the parents. A few sessions will be of great benefit.
24
I think the boyfriend must be told to leave. He has no right to your support and enables your daughter. Getting her to wake up and do housework on a regular schedule is a start. Don’t provide any money to her, make her earn it by housecleaning. Teach her good cleaning and household skills.
If she is really unable to live or find work on her own then maybe helping her find a job is the way to go? Or alternatively, help her pay for some kind of education or job training with the understanding that there will be no spending etc money for her unless she is progressing.
3
@Candy I’m seeing this play out around me. I believe it is often possible to diagnose (and I use that word deliberately) the origins of the inability to thrive independently- depression/anxiety/self-esteem issues.
My husband’s friend got a college degree in the ‘80s but never left her entry-level position until her department was eliminated 15 years later. She now works minimum wage jobs and her elderly parents pay her condo mortgage and give her their cast-off cars. They have forced her to earn various certificates that would lead to better employment, and she earns the certificates but she refuses to pursue the relevant employment afterwards. Their money would have been better spent on therapy. I am hoping they place their estate in trust (they are wealthy) and name a non-family member the trustee, because she’ll race through any inheritance otherwise.
One of my best friends, a retired CPA, has a 23 year old son who is - literally - living in a bathrobe in the family garage, smoking weed in between shifts at the grocery store. He has been diagnosed as LD, also clinically depressed, but doesn’t wish to medicate or work with a therapist, although this upper middle class family could afford both. He dropped out of college. His one foray in independent living failed when he disagreed with his landlord roommate.
My friend says she will support him in this status quo for as long as she and her husband live. What then, I wonder?
2
I'm confused. Is the step-parent living with the non step- parent? Is there a second non step-parent? Why does this all seem to be the step-parent's responsibility? Is the step-parent a woman (per illustration)who is the only one who cares about the situation?
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@WhoMe maybe the bio parent is dead or left. perhaps the LW1 has been the step parent for 10-15 years and there is no bio family left
10
@Jane It would be helpful to know how many "parents" are involved in the step-child's life. Who comprises the family and therefore the problem and the solution? Personally without additional information, I wouldn't hazard advice because that is what this is; a letter asking for advice.
5
It's terrible to have to say this, but another unaddressed issue involving LW1 is that he/she may need to protect themselves against the stepdaughter and boyfriend. Elder abuse is a real thing and can take many many forms. The behavior described suggests, at a minimum, proceed with caution - but do move forward to rectify this situation because if allowed to continue it is likely to get a lot worse.
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@Bo
This woman has reached out to a newspaper columnist for help. I'm guessing not only isolated, but outnumbered.
The dependency relationship involves three parties; it would seem the one with the most agency is the step-mother.
However many years she might have left, perhaps she needs to start on the road to peace by addressing the role, or part, she has played and will play in this drama.
She can only do so much after all, and no more. My advice would be to get her own therapy immediately. It could be the end game will be acceptance and peacefulness; could be some other improvement. Unless she stabilizes, even support will probably fall short of a happy ending.
9
@Bo
He/she (I assumed "she" - most men would have given the deadbeats the boot) - needs to check their room for firearms, knives, and lock up any knives in the kitchen. I would also install a lock on the inside of her bedroom door and let friends know to check on her. This would be the same advice to a woman leaving an abusive partner - people don't like their free ride derailed.
13
@Bo
Elder abuse from 20 year olds to a step-parent? LW1 is hardly elderly - late 40s would be my guess.
Elder abuse is a concern, but I don't think that's the case here. Mostly, LW1 just wants the couple who've been there "several years" to move on.
6
LW#2: A previously unknown cousin found me through DNA testing and asked about his father, who is my uncle. I gave him the information I had, and he eventually found his father, who promptly and thoroughly denied him. But now I have a new cousin.
193
@Marilyn Sue Michel I also have a new partial family through a DNA match. And am glad for it.
8
My 60-year-old self wants to say issue ultimatums about jobs and consider throwing them out. However, I remember being 19, jobless, and in my parents' home. From that perspective, start with making these two young adults your responsible and respected roommates. Sit down and divide the chores - those who do not work should take on more. Suggest that one of them become the house chef. Teach laundry and cleaning skills. Ask for their help with errands and appointments. Create a new atmosphere of respect and affection. Because. believe it or not, these two young people are mired in depression and emotionally stuck. Becoming responsible adult roommates will give them the confidence (and trust in your suggestions) to find work and training.
307
Jobless, yes, and perhaps understandable in regard to the stepdaughter -- but no need for the boyfriend to move in too.
Bringing in a boyfriend suggests a sense of entitlement that bodes no good. It's a recipe for stuff going missing, checks forged, and possibly an "accident" going down the stairs.
18
@Concerned Citizen My mother would not allow us (7 children; I was the oldest) to use the washing machine, because she had her way of sorting and washing the clothes, towels, and diapers. I was permitted, however, to transfer the wet clothes into the dryer and remove the dry clothes from the dryer (and fold them). As a result, I did not learn how to use a washing machine until my freshman year in college, sometimes with the advice of my roommate (and I made some mistakes). I also did not learn how to cook at home but learned some cooking skills from roommates and cookbooks. After my parents divorced (while I was in college), my mother relinquished many of the household duties to my younger sisters and brothers, because she no longer had time to do it all, because she had an outside job.
5
@Late bloomer "I did not learn how to use a washing machine" sounds like "I never learned to use a remote because my father controlled what we watched on TV." Even if you didn't do it yourself, you could figure it out in 15 seconds by watching someone use it.
5
What does the woman's (judging from the illustration) husband - the stepdaughter's father - have to say about it? There's no mention of him being in the picture, but there's also no mention of his absence. If he's gone by divorce, I don't think the "step" label would apply. If he's dead, I think it would be mentioned. It's said that "we" took him in, but it's not clear who's included in that "we".
Anyway, once a precedent (allowing the young people to freeload) is set, warning should be given that the gravy train is about to come to a stop, along with reasonable expectations. You can't say get a job and move out tomorrow - finding a job and moving out both take some lead time. An reasonable ultimatum ("get a job or start school by XX date") seems fair.
83
The Couch Kids are not twelve. And I sincerely hope they are using very effective Birth Control. Since this is the Stepdaughter, just where is her Father in this scenario ? Sound like all the work of enabling these Moochers are on the letter writer. What a surprise. NOT.
Write out a simple list of rules, and chores to be done. Present your plan.
No drama or fury necessary, but expect it anyway. This is YOUR Home. If they can't be bothered to contribute to the functioning of the House, they are free to go elsewhere. The Party's over, its time for the clean-up.
Best wishes.
147
@Phyliss Dalmatian. Thats a band-aid begging to be ripped off. Hire a resume writer, a career coach, and get them moved out. A couple months outta do it.
13
@Phyliss Dalmatian Yes. Very soon there will a baby in the equation. Then she will be really in trouble. Putting a baby out in street and all that.
2
@Phyliss Dalmatian - 'the couch kids are not 12' should be the rallying cry for all overburdened parents with offspring planted at home. Well said!
5
LW1 asks “When is enough enough?” Just by asking the question she has already answered it. Now.
Tough love is really tough. It has to delivered without anger or rancor. “You have expectations of me: a roof over your heads, food on the table, paying your bills, providing your transportation. I am doing all that. These are my expectations of you: Enroll in school today. Go out and find jobs, minimum wage will do - flip burgers, whatever. A list of daily chores is on the fridge. Otherwise bills will stop being paid, car might be sold, etc.”
Tough love usually harder on the giver than the recipient. But at the end of the day it’s love even though it’s tough. LW1, you owe it to them.
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